How was Harry rescued from the Godric's Hollow if the Fidelius Charm was used? v2

The problem is when Hagrid was telling his tale in PoA, The Maurauder's Map, he says: "I didn' know he'd bin Lily an' James's Secret-Keeper." This means that he had no idea Sirius was the Secret-Keeper, not that he didn't remember with everything going on. Since at this point, mid PoA, he does believe that Sirius was the Secret-Keeper; no one else could have posed as the Secret-Keeper. Also, the note in OoTP was only used because Dumbledore didn't want eye contact with Harry due to Voldemort's window. Very dangerous even though it was guarded by several Order members. I feel a note in the case of Godric's Hollow would be far too dangerous to risk.

Hmmm, I forgot about that quote. Good catch! I'm still convinced of the note, though. I just feel that if the risk of a note getting into the wrong hands was considered worth it by DD in OOTP, then it's very possible James, Lily, and Sirius would consider it worth it back then at GH also. I think someone else earlier here mentioned that possible the notes (both the one we know of in OOTP and the hypothetical one at GH) were enchanted so only certain people could read them, or so they could only be read if the correct password was spoken (ala The Mauraders' Map). I think this is plausible, and would further protect the note's information from falling into the wrong hands.

Hmmm, I forgot about that quote. Good catch! I'm still convinced of the note, though. I just feel that if the risk of a note getting into the wrong hands was considered worth it by DD in OOTP, then it's very possible James, Lily, and Sirius would consider it worth it back then at GH also. I think someone else earlier here mentioned that possible the notes (both the one we know of in OOTP and the hypothetical one at GH) were enchanted so only certain people could read them, or so they could only be read if the correct password was spoken (ala The Mauraders' Map). I think this is plausible, and would further protect the note's information from falling into the wrong hands.

It's certainly possible a note was used, I am just not in favor of that. It's just an opinion though. I do also stand by my opinion that the charm no longer being in place seems to me to be the cleanest to explain.

I'll re-post my list of popular theories in case we are forgetting something:
Going back to the original question of the thread, there can only be three possible answers:

* Hagrid knew the secret
* the charm was no longer in place
* Harry wasn't included in the charm (added by request)


If Hagrid knew the secret, here are the possible ways (please add if you know of more):

* Peter passed a note
* Peter wasn't himself when he told the secret
* Hagrid knew where the Potter's lived prior to the charm being performed


If the charm was no longer in place, here are the possible ways (please add if you know of more):

* The charm broke when the AK rebounded
* The charm broke when Lily died
* The charm broke when James died(added by request)
* The charm broke when the Potter's were no longer in hiding(added by request)
* Lily lifted the charm so help could come
* Dumbledore lifted the charm (added by request)

I have always considered that what JKR posted on her website negated the idea that Wormtail passed a note unanimously to someone.
21 Feb, 2006: What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?
When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else.

Just in case you have forgotten exactly how the Fidelius Charm works, it is

"an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it" (Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)

In other words, a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else – not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.
(underline added by me) This means that Wormtail told them the secret directly. I consider passing a note to be an indirect method of telling the secret. It would take a intermediary to pass the information, and therefore would not be direct. Plus, Wormtail would no longer have control over who received the secret note. I think that JKR added this explanation when she answered the rumour, to give us a clue. Hagrid could not have known the secret because then he would have known that Wormtail was the secret keeper. Therefore, I think the simplest answer to how Hagrid found baby Harry was that Harry was either no longer in the hiding place, or that the charm was ended. Hagrid gives a clue by talking about Muggles seeing the ruins.

Ultimately, though, I really doubt that JKR will revisit this issue in DH. I don't really think it was important how Hagrid got Harry unless it reveals some of the important things we are expecting, like why did Dumbledore have James' invisibilty cloak, or was someone else at Godric's Hollow, or why did Voldemort offer to let Lily live, or why did Dumbledore trust Snape, or, finally, will it help Harry find a horcrux. If it doesn't help to answer one of those questions, I doubt if we will see an answer to this question.

It's certainly possible a note was used, I am just not in favor of that. It's just an opinion though. I do also stand by my opinion that the charm no longer being in place seems to me to be the cleanest to explain.

I'll re-post my list of popular theories in case we are forgetting something:
Going back to the original question of the thread, there can only be three possible answers:

* Hagrid knew the secret
* the charm was no longer in place
* Harry wasn't included in the charm (added by request)


If Hagrid knew the secret, here are the possible ways (please add if you know of more):

* Peter passed a note
* Peter wasn't himself when he told the secret
* Hagrid knew where the Potter's lived prior to the charm being performed


If the charm was no longer in place, here are the possible ways (please add if you know of more):

* The charm broke when the AK rebounded
* The charm broke when Lily died
* The charm broke when James died(added by request)
* The charm broke when the Potter's were no longer in hiding(added by request)
* Lily lifted the charm so help could come
* Dumbledore lifted the charm (added by request)

Nice list!

I think that the reason I don't like the "charm broke/lifted" idea is because it's too easy. Not "simple", but "easy" in the sense that the writer (JKR, obviously) doesn't have to work as hard to come up with that explanation. Also, I just feel that the whole idea of the Fidelius charm is that it is "airtight" and it loses it's effectiveness and importance if it can be broken without consent of the secretkeeper. Of all of the possible ways the charm may have broke or been lifted, though, the one I can sort of see being possible is that "the Potters were no longer in hiding." But, to make that more plausible (to me), I would add that perhaps one can add clauses or conditions to the Secret. Such as "If both James and I are killed, then the charm will cease." This would be a possibility that I can see.

I have always considered that what JKR posted on her website negated the idea that Wormtail passed a note unanimously to someone.
(underline added by me) This means that Wormtail told them the secret directly. I consider passing a note to be an indirect method of telling the secret. It would take a intermediary to pass the information, and therefore would not be direct. Plus, Wormtail would no longer have control over who received the secret note. I think that JKR added this explanation when she answered the rumour, to give us a clue. Hagrid could not have known the secret because then he would have known that Wormtail was the secret keeper. Therefore, I think the simplest answer to how Hagrid found baby Harry was that Harry was either no longer in the hiding place, or that the charm was ended. Hagrid gives a clue by talking about Muggles seeing the ruins.

Ultimately, though, I really doubt that JKR will revisit this issue in DH. I don't really think it was important how Hagrid got Harry unless it reveals some of the important things we are expecting, like why did Dumbledore have James' invisibilty cloak, or was someone else at Godric's Hollow, or why did Voldemort offer to let Lily live, or why did Dumbledore trust Snape, or, finally, will it help Harry find a horcrux. If it doesn't help to answer one of those questions, I doubt if we will see an answer to this question.

Yes, JKR does say "no one can know who wasn't told directly", but since we already know the secret can be "told" through written means, I have to assume this is also a form of "directly" telling someone the secret.
And, I think Muggles could see the house even before LV attacked: they just couldn't see the Potters there. In Flitwick's explanation, he says something about "even if LV pressed his face up to the Potters' sitting room window, he wouldn't see them there." So, this seems to me that the house itself is visible.

As much interest as there is in this question of how Harry was rescued and who knew the Secret, etc., I can't imagine that JKR would not answer it. As I said before, I think that she has alot of integrity as a writer, and she would want this resolved in her own mind, no matter if anyone one else ever asked. I'm a scientist, and I think it's similar in science: when you are trying to find an answer to a scientific problem or question, you have to make sure you have considered all possibilities and all possible interpretations of your data. To do anything less means that your conclusions are weak and faulty. I can see a writer, a good writer like JKR, not wanting any loose ends, or holes in her plot. I can imagine that this would nag constantly in the back of her mind until she resolved it with a good answer. And, I just don't know why she would keep that answer from loyal readers. If not in book 7 because it's not important to the plot, then why not have already told or explained it to us or why not explain it on the website soon after DH is released?

As much interest as there is in this question of how Harry was rescued and who knew the Secret, etc., I can't imagine that JKR would not answer it. As I said before, I think that she has alot of integrity as a writer, and she would want this resolved in her own mind, no matter if anyone one else ever asked.
I hope you're right. But fans are preoccupied with a lot of little details, and I'm afraid we won't have all the answers we'd like to have at the end of book 7. I'm sure JKR has got an answer, but it's not necessarily something that will play an important part in book 7, and may consequently be left out. Perhaps she'll answer the question on her website at some point instead.

That being said, I think we will know the answer in book 7. At least indirectly.
I don't think that how Hagrid rescued Harry is important in itself, but I believe that the number of (and identity of) the people who knew the secret will be important. This question is strongly connected to "Were there anyone else present at GH on the night of the Potters' deaths" (and I think the answer to that question is "yes"), and I believe it's also connected to the invisibility cloak.

If Hagrid knew the secret, I agree polyjuiced Peter can't have told him. Which means that Hagrid either received a note or knew before the charm was in place.

If Hagrid didn't know, then I think the charm broke upon James' death (he was killed first, and the secret was untrue) or Lily (the caster) lifted it.

If Hagrid didn't know, another question arises: why was he sent to retrieve Harry? Dumbledore would only have sent Hagrid if he knew that Hagrid would find Harry. And if Hagrid didn't know the secret, Dumbledore would know that too. Which means that if Hagrid didn't know the secret, then Dumbledore knew the secret had been lifted. How did he know that?... I may be going off-topic here, but I'll provide four possible answers:
1. Dumbledore had been to GH himself and knew that the charm was lifted,
2. Dumbledore had a spy at GH who told him that the charm was lifted,
3. Dumbledore knew that the Potters were dead and knew that that would have lifted the charm.
4. Harry was never protected by the charm, so Hagrid would find him anyway.

End of post.:)

2. Dumbledore had a spy at GH who told him that the charm was lifted,
3. Dumbledore knew that the Potters were dead and knew that that would have lifted the charm.

I vote for #2 :lol: It would answer the question about why Dumbledore had the invisibility cloak and why it was crucial. It would explain how he knew what happened at Godric's Hollow, too. #3 could work also. The ministry has ways of detecting magic, that was how they knew that a hover charm was used at Privet Drive in CoS. So there might have been some sort of signal that magic was used at Godric's Hollow that set off alarm bells somewhere. Dumbledore had several interesting magical machines in his office. Maybe one of these machines detect magic.

I think that the reason I don't like the "charm broke/lifted" idea is because it's too easy. Not "simple", but "easy" in the sense that the writer (JKR, obviously) doesn't have to work as hard to come up with that explanation. Also, I just feel that the whole idea of the Fidelius charm is that it is "airtight" and it loses it's effectiveness and importance if it can be broken without consent of the secretkeeper. Of all of the possible ways the charm may have broke or been lifted, though, the one I can sort of see being possible is that "the Potters were no longer in hiding." But, to make that more plausible (to me), I would add that perhaps one can add clauses or conditions to the Secret. Such as "If both James and I are killed, then the charm will cease." This would be a possibility that I can see.



I am not sure I believe the Secret-Keeper would need to consent to the lifting of the charm. I would be more inclined to believe it was the caster of the charm that had say over that and the only one who could lift it.

Although I do like the idea of Lily sending out a Patronus and lifting the charm so help could come, I think the charm broke upon her death because she was the caster of the charm. After Siruis' death, the Order vacated #12 G.P. for fear that Bella would show up on the door step. Also, during the conversation Harry and Dumbledore had in front of the Dursleys, Harry is the one who says they can keep using it as Headquarters. I am begining to think that either the charm lifted upon Sirius' death or if he wasn't the caster, the caster lifted the charm until they knew if they could use the house or not.

I am not sure I believe the Secret-Keeper would need to consent to the lifting of the charm. I would be more inclined to believe it was the caster of the charm that had say over that and the only one who could lift it.

I don't know...again, it seems pointless to me to have a secret keeper if the spell caster can choose to lift the charm. It means one more person can control who knows the secret. Theoretically, the caster could choose to let the secret out....To me, this means someone other than the secret keeper can divulge the secret. They simply lift the charm, and then can tell whomever they want to!

Although I do like the idea of Lily sending out a Patronus and lifting the charm so help could come, I think the charm broke upon her death because she was the caster of the charm.

But doesn't this again mean that there is a large flaw in the strength of the charm? Suppose the caster of a Fidelius charm dies without the knowledge of those who know the secret, both the SK and those he/she told. They would be at a huge disadvantage, thinking their secret is still safe.

After Siruis' death, the Order vacated #12 G.P. for fear that Bella would show up on the door step. Also, during the conversation Harry and Dumbledore had in front of the Dursleys, Harry is the one who says they can keep using it as Headquarters. I am begining to think that either the charm lifted upon Sirius' death or if he wasn't the caster, the caster lifted the charm until they knew if they could use the house or not.

Because I believe the Fidelius charm, in this case, covered the secret of where the OOTP headquarters is, but did not hide the house itself, I understood DD's fear of Bella showing up on the doorstep to be for a different reason: If there were a spell on the inheritance of the Black home so that it could not be inheritated by Harry, it would go to the next Black in line, Bella. If the reason the house could not be seen (unplottable, etc.) were because of spells put on it by Sirius's father, not the Fidelius charm, then if Bella had inherited it, she might then have immediate access to it as well (i.e., the protective spells hiding it would not cover her anymore, since she would now be the rightful owner). Since Harry was the rightful owner, there was then no need to worry about Bella showing up. Notice that once DD was sure Harry was the rightful owner, he no longer seemed worried about the security of the house as headquarters of the Order. To me, this indicates that the Fidelius charm was, in any case, still in place (i.e., it had not broke because the caster-Sirius, we presume-had died).
Of course, if I'm wrong, and the Fidelius charm, and not the Black protective spells, is what hid the house, then this would indicate that maybe DD was in fact worried both about Harry's inheritance of the house and that the charm had broke.

Of course, if I'm wrong, and the Fidelius charm, and not the Black protective spells, is what hid the house, then this would indicate that maybe DD was in fact worried both about Harry's inheritance of the house and that the charm had broke.

There were enchantments put on the house by the Black family and there were enchantments put on the house by the Order. He never mentions the FC, that is why I believe there is no question...it either is in place or it isn't and Dumbledore knows the answer to that question. Bella owning the house means Bella owns Kreacher and he no longer has to keep the secrets he has heard about the Order a secret since Sirius is not his master anymore. I think that was his main concern. But in any case, I believe that by Harry saying that they can still use it as headquarter's violates the charm.
I don't know...again, it seems pointless to me to have a secret keeper if the spell caster can choose to lift the charm. As it doesn't make sense to me why, if Lily was the caster, she didn't make James the keeper. In order to know the secret, one has to find the keeper. But in order to find the keeper, one has to know the secret. They would never be found.
My idea would be that if you are the one to cast a charm on the secret you are a part of, the only way you would want to lift the charm is if it is no longer needed. Once Voldemort showed up, the charm was no longer needed. You have a point as to the caster if not being part of the secret. But I guess you just have to trust him/her as you are trusting your keeper. Take our case, the keeper was the traitor and he trusted to keep the secret.

But doesn't this again mean that there is a large flaw in the strength of the charm? Suppose the caster of a Fidelius charm dies without the knowledge of those who know the secret, both the SK and those he/she told. They would be at a huge disadvantage, thinking their secret is still safe. Yes, that is a disadvantage...one in which it makes the most sense for the caster of the charm to be part of the secret. Meaning Lily was the caster of the charm and she was one of the Potters hidden by the charm.

There were enchantments put on the house by the Black family and there were enchantments put on the house by the Order. He never mentions the FC, that is why I believe there is no question...it either is in place or it isn't and Dumbledore knows the answer to that question. Bella owning the house means Bella owns Kreacher and he no longer has to keep the secrets he has heard about the Order a secret since Sirius is not his master anymore. I think that was his main concern. But in any case, I believe that by Harry saying that they can still use it as headquarter's violates the charm.

I got lost on that last sentence. Why do you think Harry giving permission for the Order to continue using 12 Grimmauld as head quarters violates the charm? I assume you mean the Fidelius charm?

As it doesn't make sense to me why, if Lily was the caster, she didn't make James the keeper. In order to know the secret, one has to find the keeper. But in order to find the keeper, one has to know the secret. They would never be found.

Hmmm, I guess I just always assumed that if a human is the subject of the secret, then they cannot also be the keeper? But we don't really know that one way or another. If my assumption is wrong, then I can see what you mean.

My idea would be that if you are the one to cast a charm on the secret you are a part of, the only way you would want to lift the charm is if it is no longer needed. Once Voldemort showed up, the charm was no longer needed. You have a point as to the caster if not being part of the secret. But I guess you just have to trust him/her as you are trusting your keeper. Take our case, the keeper was the traitor and he trusted to keep the secret.

Yes, that is a disadvantage...one in which it makes the most sense for the caster of the charm to be part of the secret. Meaning Lily was the caster of the charm and she was one of the Potters hidden by the charm.

I see your point, but I guess I'm thinking to myself, if I were the writer making up these spells, this is one I would probably choose to make airtight, so that only the SK can ever be the one to divulge the secret, whether by telling someone, or by lifting/breaking the charm. But, I'm not JKR, and who knows? I am convinced she will tell us one way or another, though. :)

I got lost on that last sentence. Why do you think Harry giving permission for the Order to continue using 12 Grimmauld as head quarters violates the charm? I assume you mean the Fidelius charm?


The secret, from the parchment Harry received states...

The headquarters of the Order of the Pheonix may be found at number twelve, Grimmauld Place, London.

Therefore it is my assumption that "headquarters" is what is hidden. In HBP, Harry and Dumbledore are discussing the Order of the Phoenix and #12 G.P. when Harry says that Dumbledore can use it as headquarters. This, to me, would tell someone that #12 G.P. is where the headquarters for the Order of the Phoenix is located. Since the charm is supposed to work in where the secret can only be disclosed by the Keeper, I think Harry saying, "You can keep using it as headquarters," violated the description of the Fidelius Charm.
Of course it could be a mistake, but I see it as evidence that the FC was no longer in place.

The secret, from the parchment Harry received states...

The headquarters of the Order of the Pheonix may be found at number twelve, Grimmauld Place, London.

Therefore it is my assumption that "headquarters" is what is hidden. In HBP, Harry and Dumbledore are discussing the Order of the Phoenix and #12 G.P. when Harry says that Dumbledore can use it as headquarters. This, to me, would tell someone that #12 G.P. is where the headquarters for the Order of the Phoenix is located. Since the charm is supposed to work in where the secret can only be disclosed by the Keeper, I think Harry saying, "You can keep using it as headquarters," violated the description of the Fidelius Charm.
Of course it could be a mistake, but I see it as evidence that the FC was no longer in place.

Oh, okay. I see what you are getting at now. Hmmm, I can only imagine that Harry was "allowed" to say it because DD is the SK. Or maybe, one is allowed to say it to anyone else who already knows? For instance, I think the trio discuss it throughout OOTP amongst themselves.

Oh, okay. I see what you are getting at now. Hmmm, I can only imagine that Harry was "allowed" to say it because DD is the SK. Or maybe, one is allowed to say it to anyone else who already knows? For instance, I think the trio discuss it throughout OOTP amongst themselves.

The problem there is it was in front of the Dursleys. I believe the explanation by JRK that was posted several posts back indicates that only the keeper can disclose the information. There is no mention of DD being able to allow Harry to give the secret. But that, of course, doesn't mean it cannot be.

Bella owning the house means Bella owns Kreacher and he no longer has to keep the secrets he has heard about the Order a secret since Sirius is not his master anymore.That should not have had any effect: the Fidelius Charm should have prevented Kreacher from speaking. Still, and as Dumbledore notes in Order, there is a lot of information that Kreacher still could pass along.
ut in any case, I believe that by Harry saying that they can still use it as headquarter's violates the charm.heh, I would use that as evidence that the charm works differently than you think! It also is possible that Rowling erred. However, given the circumstances, I expect that Rowling had Harry say what she thought that he could say given her rules.

I think that the real point of this scene is that Dumbledore effectively tells the Dursleys that the Order's headquarters are at #12. That could be important in Hallows.

The problem there is it was in front of the Dursleys. I believe the explanation by JRK that was posted several posts back indicates that only the keeper can disclose the information. There is no mention of DD being able to allow Harry to give the secret. But that, of course, doesn't mean it cannot be.

...However, given the circumstances, I expect that Rowling had Harry say what she thought that he could say given her rules.

I think that the real point of this scene is that Dumbledore effectively tells the Dursleys that the Order's headquarters are at #12. That could be important in Hallows.

I was thinking along the same lines as Wimsy: since (I believe, don't have my book with me) DD basically told the Dursley's the secret by bringing it up in front of them, this means they would now belong to the group who is in on the secret, so that Harry would now be able to speak of it in front of them. Again, I am basing this on the fact that the trio speak of it amongst themselves.

I was thinking along the same lines as Wimsy: since (I believe, don't have my book with me) DD basically told the Dursley's the secret by bringing it up in front of them, this means they would now belong to the group who is in on the secret, so that Harry would now be able to speak of it in front of them. Again, I am basing this on the fact that the trio speak of it amongst themselves.

But it was Harry who told them where the headquarters were located, not Dumbledore. The charm doesn't prevent someone from saying #12 G.P., nor does it prevent someone from mentioning the Order of the Phoenix. The location of the Order's headquarters is the secret.

That should not have had any effect: the Fidelius Charm should have prevented Kreacher from speaking. Still, and as Dumbledore notes in Order, there is a lot of information that Kreacher still could pass along.

Right. The Fidelius Charm prevented Kreacher from telling the location of the Order, Sirius' orders prevented him from telling Order secrets that he over-heard day after day. If Kreacher belonged to Bella, he no longer had to obey Sirius and could give away the secrets of the Order, but not the location if the charm was still in place. The point I was making is that Dumbledore was mainly concerned with Kreacher going to Bella. They already vacated the house so anyone discovering the location would be finding an empty house making that problem solved. It just appears to me that the FC was no long in place at this time.

But it was Harry who told them where the headquarters were located, not Dumbledore. The charm doesn't prevent someone from saying #12 G.P., nor does it prevent someone from mentioning the Order of the Phoenix. The location of the Order's headquarters is the secret.

You're right, DD never actually says that 12 Grimmauld is the headquarters in front of the Dursleys before Harry says "You can keep using it as headquarters." So...is it an oversight on the part of JKR, or a sneaky clue? :grumble: Darn her!

I just thought of another possible way that the Fidelius charm may have been broken, in a way that makes sense to me:

Perhaps if the SK betrays the secret by revealing it to those from whom it was to be hidden, it is automatically considered broken or lifted. This form of breaking or lifting the charm is the only one that makes complete sense to me.
Not sure if anyone else has already mentioned this possibility, if so, sorry for the repeat!

You're right, DD never actually says that 12 Grimmauld is the headquarters in front of the Dursleys before Harry says "You can keep using it as headquarters." So...is it an oversight on the part of JKR, or a sneaky clue? :grumble: Darn her!

I just thought of another possible way that the Fidelius charm may have been broken, in a way that makes sense to me:

Perhaps if the SK betrays the secret by revealing it to those from whom it was to be hidden, it is automatically considered broken or lifted. This form of breaking or lifting the charm is the only one that makes complete sense to me.
Not sure if anyone else has already mentioned this possibility, if so, sorry for the repeat!

Yes it has been mentioned before. I don't recall who said it though. The only problem with this is it would have to be in a clause, if possible, in the charm. The secret keeper can disclose to whomever he chooses. Wormtail betrayed the Potters, but as far as we know of the charm, HE can choose to whom he tells the secret and he chose Voldemort.

Yes it has been mentioned before. I don't recall who said it though. The only problem with this is it would have to be in a clause, if possible, in the charm. The secret keeper can disclose to whomever he chooses. Wormtail betrayed the Potters, but as far as we know of the charm, HE can choose to whom he tells the secret and he chose Voldemort.

We do know that only the SK can choose to divulge the secret information, but I don't think we know for sure whether or not there are or can be any stipulations on who they can tell, and what the consequences may be if the SK violates any stipulations. I like the idea that stipulations or clauses can be added to the Fidelius charm. I think, if this is possible, it's the best answer so far.

We do know that only the SK can choose to divulge the secret information, but I don't think we know for sure whether or not there are or can be any stipulations on who they can tell, and what the consequences may be if the SK violates any stipulations. I like the idea that stipulations or clauses can be added to the Fidelius charm. I think, if this is possible, it's the best answer so far.
I've thought about this possibility before, but I didn't quite like it. However, if there was a clause or something in the charm stating that it was Voldemort the secret must be hidden from, and the FC broke if Voldemort was told, then this becomes a sort of "alarm system". We know that only the SK can divulge the secret. This means that if Voldemort was told, suddenly everyone who knew the secret would be able to retell it. Those who knew how the secret works would then know that Voldemort had been told (if they tried telling someone).

It's still a bit too complicated for my taste. Normally a secret isn't meant to be hidden from only one or a few people, but from the general public, or, in other words, everyone else. If the FC can only be cast if someone specific is being named as the person(s) the secret must be kept from, then it's a strange charm in my opinion. If the specification of one or several people the secret must be kept from is optional, then I don't see why telling them would break the charm - except if it were to function as an alarm system. But I guess such an alarm system would be good, especially in the Potters' case. If Voldemort was told, everyone in the Order should be told as soon as possible too, so that they could all go to GH to help - but if Voldemort knew, then the SK was a traitor, and he wouldn't be telling the Order members the secret. But if the charm was broken, someone else could do that.

So my opinion is, cab, that you add an extra "the charm was broken because Peter told Voldemort the secret, and Voldemort was the person it needed to be hidden from" - or something along those lines. This theory is just as plausible as some of the other explanations suggested, in my opinion. (Although it's still not my favourite :))

I say Dumbledore knew where they were in hiding, because he was the one who cast the fidelius charm to begin with, and simply handed a pre-written note to Hagrid saying "the potters live at no12, random street, godric's hollow" so he could go and rescue harry.

Oh-my, I had just naively assumed that the FC was broken upon the death of James & Lilly and the consequential trashing of the house itself. While the idea of clause/conditions being applied to the Charm’s casting has merit and also would explain this somewhat, it’s just doesn’t feel quite right. What I mean is if you take the unbreakable vow, that was quite specific in its nature where as the charm seems more like an effect is caused by it rather than anything else.

I guess the biggest thing that now stops me thinking as I originally did is that I now suspect that the FC was cast to hide all three of them, so even if Lilly & James where killed the charm still had something to hide.

I’m just going to have to keep eliminating the impossible until, whatever’s left, however improbable is most likely the answer.

I'll re-post my list of popular theories in case we are forgetting something:
Going back to the original question of the thread, there can only be three possible answers:

* Hagrid knew the secret
* the charm was no longer in place
* Harry wasn't included in the charm


If Hagrid knew the secret, here are the possible ways (please add if you know of more):

* Peter passed a note
* Peter wasn't himself when he told the secret
* Hagrid knew where the Potter's lived prior to the charm being performed


If the charm was no longer in place, here are the possible ways (please add if you know of more):

* The charm broke when the AK rebounded
* The charm broke when Lily died
* The charm broke when James died
* The charm broke when the Potter's were no longer in hiding
* Lily lifted the charm so help could come
* Dumbledore lifted the charm
*The charm broke when Peter told the secret (added by request)
*Peter, the Secret-Keeper, lifted the charm (added)

If Peter was with LV when he went to Godric's Hollow couldn't Peter himself to lift the charm? LV might wanted Peter to be with him to see if he's telling the truth, so first he told the secret and then lifted the charm.

Do you think it's possible that James' invisibility cloak had other powers, including being able to see "through" a fidelius charm? This would also explain why Dumbledore had the cloak to give to Harry.

I think maybe the Fidelius Charm ends when one or more of the people placed under protection dies. That way both Lily and James had died, so the Fidelius protection over Harry would be gone.
btw, go on www.justaskamy.piczo.com - it's quite good.

Do you think it's possible that James' invisibility cloak had other powers, including being able to see "through" a fidelius charm? This would also explain why Dumbledore had the cloak to give to Harry.

Do you mean that he can see through the fidelius charm that was used only to Godric's Hollow or through all the fidelius charms? Because when Harry went to Grimmauld Place and he was under the cloak he couldn't see the house until he read the secret.

If Peter was with LV when he went to Godric's Hollow couldn't Peter himself to lift the charm? LV might wanted Peter to be with him to see if he's telling the truth, so first he told the secret and then lifted the charm.

This ties into a discussion I was having a few posts back. If a FC can even be lifed, who would be able to do it? It wouldn't make sense for any John Doe passing to be able to lift the charm, kinda makes the charm pointless. If it is possible, perhaps the secret keeper is the one to be able to lift the charm. Or, perhaps it's anyone present for the charm. It's all so confusing...I'll add it.

Do you mean that he can see through the fidelius charm that was used only to Godric's Hollow or through all the fidelius charms? Because when Harry went to Grimmauld Place and he was under the cloak he couldn't see the house until he read the secret. I thought about that as I was typing the post, and I couldn't remember if he still had the cloak on at the time.

It has to be pretty hard to break a Fidelius Charm. It is a serious matter to place one. I don't think Peter could break it, no matter what he did. He is just the Secret Keeper, not the person who wants a secret kept. I would think that the person who casts the charm could lift it. A Fidelius Charm would have to have some method of removal. Otherwise, you could never sell a house that was hidden by one :lol:

My thought is that the charm could be lifted by the caster and would automatically be lifted if the caster passes away. If Lily was the caster of the charm, it is one way of explaining how people could see their home.

My thought is that the charm could be lifted by the caster and would automatically be lifted if the caster passes away. If Lily was the caster of the charm, it is one way of explaining how people could see their home.
But hasn't Jo said that the charm stays the way it was when the caster dies? That would presumedly mean that the house stayed hidden when Lily was killed.

But hasn't Jo said that the charm stays the way it was when the caster dies? That would presumedly mean that the house stayed hidden when Lily was killed.
No, she said it stays a secret if the Secret Keeper dies. She didn't say anything about the caster of the spell (or at least not that I know of).

This begs the question if Harry tries to return to his parent house in DH, will he have to find pettigrew to give him access because of the fidelious charm?

It's possible that Harry, having been under the FC protection (see Jo's website where she talks about the Secret Keeper and uses the Potters as an example) wouldn't have any problem. Ron and Hermione, and anyone else tagging along for the trip down infancy lane, might have trouble seeing the place...:shrug: I personally doubt it, though. Hagrid shouldn't have been able to access Harry there, yet he did. So I think something/someone managed to end the spell (broke the Charm?), yet I have to concede that the evidence is flimsy and the possibility that Harry also won't see anything upon approaching the hidey-house exists.

On the other hand, since no Potters are actually hiding there, the house may be visible to anyone. ;)

Either Lily took a moment to undo the charm as she ran for Harry, or the charm broke when the caster (I'm going to assume Lily) died. Or the charm broke when the house did, meaning that the charm couldn't hide a house that was destroyed. But I learn toward either Lily ending the charm or her dying breaking the charm.

The secret dies with the Secret Keeper, but that doesn't addresss what happens to the caster. If would certainly be bizarre if the spell couldn't be ended. Houses and other locales would be hidden forever.

maybe the reson DD had haggard get harry was he knew that the secret keeper told hagrid (grated he aumed the wrong preson was it)

(if black and peter were in the same room hagrid may overlook wick one gave him the loction)

of cource we may know in 9 days

(if black and peter were in the same room hagrid may overlook wick one gave him the loction) Hagrid said 'I never knew he (Sirius) had been the Potters' secret keeper', (PoA) though. It's possible he had been send a note anonymously, like the one Harry got in OotP. I don't think Hagrid would recognize the handwriting.

(if black and peter were in the same room hagrid may overlook wick one gave him the loction) Hagrid said 'I never knew he (Sirius) had been the Potters' secret keeper', (PoA) though. It's possible he had been send a note anonymously, like the one Harry got in OotP. I don't think Hagrid would recognize the handwriting.