How was Harry rescued from the Godric's Hollow if the Fidelius Charm was used? v2

Version One (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=57409)


I'm very curious on anyone's ideas about how Harry was rescued from the Potter's house if the fidelius charm was used and Pettigrew was their secret keeper. No one knew Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper since Sirius changed it last minute. How were they able to find the house and hence the baby? What we know about the Fidelius charm (PoA) "An immensley complex spell," he [Professor Flitwick] said squeakily "involving the concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window." Let me know what you think. Cheers :tu:

The question I have is, would someone who already knew the house, but when the FC is cast, they aren't told the secret, be still able to know the location of the house (like visit the potters etc), but can't divulge it? I don't know if my questions make sense. The reason I ask is, if Hagrid knew where their house was before, he might still know it after the charm is cast. And that is why he was able to rescue harry. Although the charm would be able to apply to him in the sense that he wouldn't be able to tell anyone about it. Boy, I'm confusing myself. I'm surprised no one asked Jo this question; they should most certianly ask her next time they interview her. I think if the charm was still operational when Hagrid went to get Harry, then the only conclusion is that he knew where the Potter's were before the charm was put into place and he continued to know where they were, just couldn't give out that information. Either Hagrid didn't know about the FC or he didn't know who the secret keeper was because he certainly didn't believe it to be Sirius at the time. My best guess it that the charm was lifted and Hagrid didn't know there even was a FC put into place. I believe either the charm was lifted by Lily prior to her dying or the charm lifted upon her death. I also believe that Dumbledore told Hagrid where to find Harry and where to bring him. The only way this is possible is if the charm was lifted or Harry wasn't included in the charm.
I think it's most likely he didn't know about the Fidelius Charm.
I think if the charm was still operational when Hagrid went to get Harry, then the only conclusion is that he knew where the Potter's were before the charm was put into place and he continued to know where they were, just couldn't give out that information. Yes, that is what I was going for with my question. Its the one that makes the most sense to me. We don't know if the charm was still operational or not, although I think it was, and I agree w/canismajoris that hagrid mostly likely didn't know about the FC. Please continue. :)

I still don't think we have a conclusive answer to this question and I hope it's answered in Deathly Hallows. The ideas that work best for me are:

1. Peter Pettigrew sent notes to Order members but they thought it was Sirius. I don't like this idea because Dumbledore should have recognised the writing but I guess not necessarily so it could turn out to be the easiest and most plausible answer plus we have canon of this actually taking place.

2. Fidelius is linked to fidelity and a part of the charm's ability to work lies in no disclosing the secret to the very person the secret was intended to block. Perhaps when this happens the charm is broken.

Other points have been very good as well but these two seem most acceptable to me right now because the others have a lot of unanswered questions, like who cast the spell, etc.

Cheers :tu:

I think I pointed out the first one in the last thread, so I will have to agree with you there.
What does anyone think of howlers playing some part? Well, not a howler, but a message very much like it disclosing the secret to certain people via owl. The way I see it, even if LV had DE's searching through owls (which I highly doubt), would they really touch what they thought was a howler? But then I suppose there could be discrepancies as to whether or not the voice was recognisable as Peter's.

i don't think so.

what if Lord Voldemort legimenced the secret out of Peters brain, and because the secret is meant to be shared, not stolen, the charm broke.

Wasn't the charm broken when the house was demolished? Or didn't Dumbledore know (and likely the Order also) where they were? Good point, maybe any legimence-able person can read where something is in someone's brain, the secret keeper's.

Isn't it just possible that as an Order member Hagrid knew the location of the Potters house before the charm was used on Wormtail, I don't think that the charm can make people forget what they already know just that new people can't be told.

Isn't it just possible that as an Order member Hagrid knew the location of the Potters house before the charm was used on Wormtail, I don't think that the charm can make people forget what they already know just that new people can't be told.

That's possible.

Hasn't J.K. said that there was someone else at the Potter's house that night? Could that possibly tie in with all this?

I like the idea of not forgetting what you already know. Otherwise it would be more like a memory loss spell.

Isn't it just possible that as an Order member Hagrid knew the location of the Potters house before the charm was used on Wormtail, I don't think that the charm can make people forget what they already know just that new people can't be told.

I agree.

Hagrid knew where the Potters were all along, he just couldn't tell anyone. This seems like the simplist explaination. Is there any reason Hagrid couldn't have known? Especially since we know Dumbledore "trusts Hagrid with his life."

I agree.

Hagrid knew where the Potters were all along, he just couldn't tell anyone. This seems like the simplist explaination. Is there any reason Hagrid couldn't have known? Especially since we know Dumbledore "trusts Hagrid with his life."
I actually don't like that idea because that would mean all those people who knew where Grimmauld Place was before could simply show up. It doesn't seem particularly safe unless they can both enter Grimmauld Place and use it but not see anyone else in it. That's just too much for my imagination to accept.

Cheers :tu:

Wasn't the charm broken when the house was demolished?I think that's a possibility. After all, once the Potters were dead, there really wasn't a secret to be kept by the charm anymore. I wonder if someone (maybe Dumbledore) was just able to tell Hagrid where baby Harry was so he could rescue him. However, this possibility depends on whether the charm was indeed broken with the house's destruction and if not, if Dumbledore was involved in the casting of the charm.
Isn't it just possible that as an Order member Hagrid knew the location of the Potters house before the charm was used on Wormtail, I don't think that the charm can make people forget what they already know just that new people can't be told.Though lots of people must have known where Godric's Hollow was before the charm was performed, I think the key here is that not all of them or none of them knew that the Potters were hiding there. So if they wanted to find Godric's Hollow they would have been able to do so, but if they wanted to find the Potters they wouldn't have been able to. Thus no one would really forget what they already knew, but at the same time no one who knew where the house was could find the Potters if they weren't told the secret.

I think that's a possibility. After all, once the Potters were dead, there really wasn't a secret to be kept by the charm anymore.But the secret would or should also include Harry Potter, and he wasn't dead. I think once one of the Potters was alive the secret should still have held. I can't see why they would exclude Harry from the charm. He was the main reason they were in hiding in the first place.

Cheers :tu:

I think I pointed out the first one in the last thread, so I will have to agree with you there.
What does anyone think of howlers playing some part? Well, not a howler, but a message very much like it disclosing the secret to certain people via owl. The way I see it, even if LV had DE's searching through owls (which I highly doubt), would they really touch what they thought was a howler? But then I suppose there could be discrepancies as to whether or not the voice was recognisable as Peter's.
I've got another thought about how a note could work. We know that the Marauder's Map only becomes visible when the right words are said. Perhaps it's possible to open it using a non-verbal spell too? Just focus hard on the right words, and the map appears... My point is: there could be a note going around at the time of the FC working the same way. The order members knew the right words to make the information on the note appear (the location of the Potters), and also which words to use to conceal the information afterwards. Thus the note wouldn't be dangerous in the hands of an enemy. The note was of course written by Peter - OR: could it be written by Sirius, on Peter's orders, to conceal who the real Secret Keeper was?... (I don't even know if it would be possible for Sirius to write it down:hmm:)

Wasn't the charm broken when the house was demolished?

I think there is a huge difference between "almost destroyed" and demolished. The fact that it was "almost" means it wasn't destoyed.

Though lots of people must have known where Godric's Hollow was before the charm was performed, I think the key here is that not all of them or none of them knew that the Potters were hiding there. So if they wanted to find Godric's Hollow they would have been able to do so, but if they wanted to find the Potters they wouldn't have been able to.

I agree with this and it also fits in perfectly with Flitwick's explanation. He did simplify his explanation, but the meat of it is the same. You may have know where Godric's Hollow was, but you couldn't see the Potter's there unless you knew the secret.

I think the question that needs answered before the charm and how it was broken is why the Potters were in hiding. I can only venture a guess that it was voldy's threat and maybe the push of Dumbledore and the order to conceal the Potters when the prophecy was heard. The order and the potters may not have known, and Dumbledore may not have told them, but this would lead me to believe that Dumbledore and the order knew where the potters were.

I actually don't like that idea because that would mean all those people who knew where Grimmauld Place was before could simply show up. It doesn't seem particularly safe unless they can both enter Grimmauld Place and use it but not see anyone else in it. That's just too much for my imagination to accept.

In OOtP, we see people coming and going from 12 Grimmauld Place all through the day. Remember how the doorbell set off Sirius' mom every time?

So yeah, if you are 'in', you can come and go as you please.

In OOtP, we see people coming and going from 12 Grimmauld Place all through the day. Remember how the doorbell set off Sirius' mom every time?

So yeah, if you are 'in', you can come and go as you please.

I was referring to people were not "in" on the secret as Hagrid would not have been since he never knew in PoA that Pettigrew was the secret keeper.

Cheers :tu:

I was referring to people were not "in" on the secret as Hagrid would not have been since he never knew in PoA that Pettigrew was the secret keeper.

Cheers :tu:

Do we know that from Canon, or is that just an assumption? Seems to me that since Hagrid was sent there by Dumbledore, and he did not have to even ask for directions, that he was included. It is possible for example for Hagrid to have been told where the Potters were by a group which included Peter, without him knowing who the Secret Keeper was, since after all it seems that Dumbledore himself did not know that the Secret Keeper had been switched to Peter from Sirius. Remember also that the Marauders ran together, so it is not strange at all that Peter, James, Remus and Sirius would all be there when Hagrid/Dumbledore/Etc. were told.

Do we know that from Canon, or is that just an assumption? Seems to me that since Hagrid was sent there by Dumbledore, and he did not have to even ask for directions, that he was included. It is possible for example for Hagrid to have been told where the Potters were by a group which included Peter, without him knowing who the Secret Keeper was, since after all it seems that Dumbledore himself did not know that the Secret Keeper had been switched to Peter from Sirius. Remember also that the Marauders ran together, so it is not strange at all that Peter, James, Remus and Sirius would all be there when Hagrid/Dumbledore/Etc. were told.
"An immensley complex spell," he [Professor Flitwick] said squeakily "involving the concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window." Based on how the spell works only Pettigrew could have given the secret. Dumbledore also knows how the secret works so I don't think they could have tricked him like that. There is no way what you're saying could work. The only way it could work is if Pettigrew sent them a note.

Cheers :tu:

The only way it could work is if Pettigrew sent them a note.

Or there's the possibility that those who knew the secret before the charm was cast will still know it afterwards, and won't need to be re-told...

Or there's the possibility that those who knew the secret before the charm was cast will still know it afterwards, and won't need to be re-told...As I said before, that doesn't make sense to me or seem particularly safe because that means everyone, example maybe Bellatrix, who knew where Grimmauld Place was before it became the Order of the Phoenix Headquarters could still enter. The Potters also agreed to make Pettigrew their secret keeper because they suspected that one of their friends was feeding information to Voldemort. Again, it would be pointless to do this if it wasn't going to keep that friend away if he already knew.

Cheers :tu:

As I said before, that doesn't make sense to me or seem particularly safe because that means everyone, example maybe Bellatrix, who knew where Grimmauld Place was before it became the Order of the Phoenix Headquarters could still enter. The Potters also agreed to make Pettigrew their secret keeper because they suspected that one of their friends was feeding information to Voldemort. Again, it would be pointless to do this if it wasn't going to keep that friend away if he already knew.

Cheers :tu:

But even if the friend knew the secret he wouldn't be able to reveal it unless he was the secret-keeper. So the entire world could know except Voldemort and he still wouldn't be able to find them.

But even if the friend knew the secret he wouldn't be able to reveal it unless he was the secret-keeper. So the entire world could know except Voldemort and he still wouldn't be able to find them.
Was Sirius ever the Secret Keeper or was it always Pettigrew? Anyway, it doesn't matter because based on the definition of the spell the secret must exist inside one person and I just don't understand how that can work if Pettigrew was the secret keeper and no one else knew yet still they all knew because they knew before. It doesn't seem accurate that anyone who knew the secret before wouldn't have to be retold once the secret became locked inside a single soul. It doesn't seem appropriate to the definition. My example of Grimmauld Place and Bellatrix, etc. knowing is an example of that going very wrong.

Cheers :tu:

Was Sirius ever the Secret Keeper or was it always Pettigrew? Anyway, it doesn't matter because based on the definition of the spell the secret must exist inside one person and I just don't understand how that can work if Pettigrew was the secret keeper and no one else knew yet still they all knew because they knew before. It doesn't seem accurate that anyone who knew the secret before wouldn't have to be retold once the secret became locked inside a single soul. It doesn't seem appropriate to the definition. My example of Grimmauld Place and Bellatrix, etc. knowing is an example of that going very wrong.

Cheers :tu:

But it's very likely that Bellatrix does know the location of 12 Grimmauld Place - the secret was not that the house exists, but that it is the HQ of the Order. That would suggest she could see the house and enter it, but not see anything that would reveal it as the HQ.

But it's very likely that Bellatrix does know the location of 12 Grimmauld Place - the secret was not that the house exists, but that it is the HQ of the Order. That would suggest she could see the house and enter it, but not see anything that would reveal it as the HQ.

This sparks a question to me. If that's true, why didn't she sneak in there at night? Was it because she was scared of the people in it? Or, was LV telling the DE not to blow there cover...?

Well, the Fidelius Charm is broken when the Secret Keeper gives up the whereabouts of the people being hidden.

This sparks a question to me. If that's true, why didn't she sneak in there at night? Was it because she was scared of the people in it? Or, was LV telling the DE not to blow there cover...?

Why would she want to sneak in? As far as she was aware, it was simply her cousin's house.

Well, the Fidelius Charm is broken when the Secret Keeper gives up the whereabouts of the people being hidden.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. The secret keeper is supposed to tell the secret to those who are 'allowed' to know it. That won't break the charm, it wouldn't make sense at all if the charm was broken if the secret keeper told anyone the secret. We know Harry was told the location of the Order, and nothing happened then.
What we don't know, is whether there is something inherent in the spell about a person or a group of people who must not be told, and if that happens, the spell is broken. Concerning GH, this means: once Voldemort was told, the spell was broken, because he was the one the secret ultimately had to be hidden from. But I can't see that we've got any canon to support this theory.

I think Sirius had Peter impersonate his handwriting and send messages to the people in the Order who Dumbledore thought should be in the know.

its what snape said to bella when she asked the location of the headquarters.. he said he couldnt tel cause he wasnt the secret keeper.. that doesnt mean he doesnt knw where it is.. he somehow cant tell.. only the secret keeper can say if he wants too thus has to be very trustworthy.. why wasnt sirius a secret keeper for the potters?

better question..
why wasnt lily or james made the secret keeper.. wasnt that rather dim of them to make anyone other than themselves to be the secret keeper..?one of the two could have been ...just sillly really.and they made worm tail.. i mean look at him.. he doesnt even look trustworthy.

I'm going to go out on a small branch here, since I've forgotten if the Fidelius charm was used to hide Grimmauld Place.

The Fidelius charm was used to hide Mr and Mrs Potter, and I think we can assume, Harry too. I don't think the house was hidden, as someone said: "LV could go up to the very windows and look in, and still he wouldn't see anyone." Or something like that. That would explain how Hagrid could find the house, but not the Potters. Death ends all spells?

Of course, there is the chance that James and Lily, no matter who they tried to hide from, still trusted their leader, Dumbledore, without a doubt, and he would have been given in on the secret as well, if he was, Peter could hardly protest and say: "the less people who knows, the better." I would say Peter would have as many people as possible to know about it.

Anyway, if Dumbledore knew, then I agree with those that said that he told Hagrid about the 'secret'. Or maybe the spell was expelled when Voldemort died, since he was the one they specificly wanted to hide from. But why at Godrics Hollow? Hogwarts would have been a safer place.

I think that the charm collapsed when the house was destroyed. The charm did involve the name of the house, and when the house ceased to exist, the charm would be destroyed.

Hi everyone,

I too have been pondering this question and have not come up with a satisifactory answer.

However I ahve just thought of something.

So Sirius was meant to be secret keeper but decided this was too obvious a choice so chose Peter. However he knew that voldemort would likely still come looking for him but was willing to die to hide the secret. So I am assuming that Peter told Sirius the location of the Potters after the charm was done. So Sirius would have been unable to tell anyone where the Potters were.

However we know Dumbledore wanted to be secret keeper. So I am assuming now that Dumbledore and ONLY Dumbledore knew the location of the Potters before the charm was completed. This wouldn't have been dangerous because Voldemort could never have used legilmency on Dumbledore to get the information out of him. He would have been to scared. I assume the rest of the order did not know where the Potters were. But however maybe they knew the location of Godrics Hollow but just not that the Potters were there.

So when Dumbledore heard of the death of the Potters he sent Hagrid to the village and because the house was destroyed I assume now that everyone is able to see the house. I guess the charm protects the house more than the occupants in it. Otherwise Harry will never be able to go to Godrics Hollow and see it. So it can't protect the people but must protect the house/location!

Since Peter/Wormtail was the one who did the charm, he could have undone it so that Voldermort could get to the Potters. Then, anyone could have found them. This makes sense because Voldermort would have wanted others to know that he had destroyed the Potters, and if the charm was still working, then no one would be able to see his handiwork.

The simple answer to the title question is that Pettigrew probably told both Dumbledore and Hagrid when James instructed him to do so.

The simple answer to the title question is that Pettigrew probably told both Dumbledore and Hagrid when James instructed him to do so.
If you recall the plot of Prisoner of Azkaban, this answer is impossible unless both Hagrid and Dumbledore are evil and decided that Sirius should spend time in Azkaban for crimes not committed even though they knew that Pettigrew was the secret keeper. Both Dumbledore and Hagrid never stated otherwise to Harry.

Cheers :tu:

He could have informed either or both of them by unsigned note. Or this could be one of those little mistakes that JKR's editor didn't catch or she couldn't figure out how to fix.

Or this could be one of those little mistakes that JKR's editor didn't catch or she couldn't figure out how to fix.


I don't think so, there is no need of Peter to inform Hagrid in the least. :no: As for Dumbledore, why does he need to know, he wasn't there at Godric Hollow (atleast canon wise, he wasn't). IMO the secret was lifted due to the fact that the caster of the spell had died, assuming it to be James, we have JKR specifying that the secret would remain intact if the Secret Keeper died, but she said nothing about the caster, implying that the old rules still apply meaning that if the caster dies the spell is lifted. ;)

I always assumed that Lily was the caster. Oh, by the way, if that's the way to break charms like that, why didn't Snape turn around and kill Bellatrix after she sealed that Unbreakable Vow?:huh: Just asking, I happen to be one of the Snape is--or could be--good partisans. And I know the obvious answer in the context of the meeting.

I agree with the idea of when the person chose to be the secret keeper tells it to anyone, the charm is broken and thereefore Harry could be rescued.

Dumbledore knew about it before so he knew where Harry was, but that doesn't explain Hagrid. There is a possibly that the charm was performed on Harry's parents, not Harry himself. Or maybe the house they were staying in. Maybe Peter broke the charm through telling Voldemort or another way. I don't think it's a mistake in any case.

Um DUH!!!! Dumbledore sent Hagrid to go get Harry giving him the location of the house.

Um DUH!!!! Dumbledore sent Hagrid to go get Harry giving him the location of the house.

But it doesn't matter if Dumbledore told him. It has to be the secret keeper that reveals the information. That's why the note for Grimmauld Place has to be in Dumbledore's handwriting or it wouldn't have worked.

If anything can be kept as a secret, I suppose it matters to know that it was the location of the Potters that was being protected. When the Potters were killed and their house destroyed, there was no longer a location to protect -- the house was gone, and the secret was, also, so the Charm, in all likelihood, was also broken.

That's possible.

Hasn't J.K. said that there was someone else at the Potter's house that night? Could that possibly tie in with all this?

I'll admit I haven't read the whole thread yet, but something just struck me.

We know the wormtail was the secret keeper, and the Sirius had asked not to be at the ast moment, pressumably because he was an obvious person as James' best friend to have the information.

Is it possible Wormtail imperiused Sirius into convincing James to do this?

If very few people knew the Potter's whereabouts, who would this have included - as evidence seems unlikely Sirius or Lupin knew. As Hagrid collected Harry, he must have been told at some point. He is also the game keeper at Hogwarts, has limited magic skills due to being expelled and didn't have access to a wand. Generally speaking, he wasn't much of a threat.

It is unlikely that LV would have wanted witnesses, and so far evidence suggests he didn't invite anyone along. So the person who was at the Potter's house would have had to be too small or insignificant for LV to notice.
The logical conclusion is that it was Wormtail in mouse form. Why he'd be there is open to debate. He is a coward, not evil as such.

If a memory charm would work on a half giant, is it also possible that Peter told Hagrid what had happened, then change the memory so someone like Dumbledore appears to have told Hagris to collect Harry? Peter then flees until he runs into Sirius, who would know Peter's involvement since he was the secret keeper.

Any thoughts?

I agree with the idea of when the person chose to be the secret keeper tells it to anyone, the charm is brokenBut we know that isn't true of the Secret for OotP Headquarters. Dumbledore, the Secret Keeper, told quite a number of people the Secret (including Harry via note) and yet Headquarters for the Order wasn't visible to those not told the Secret.

However, since the Fidelius Charm is "immensely complex", perhaps it can include special phrasing in the case of the Potters. :shrug:

Maybe I'm off on this one... but my understanding is that anyone can know the location but they can only find out from the secret keeper. Only the secret keeper can give the information to someone new. So Hagrid the Dumbledore, etc already knew the location of the Potters in Godric's Hollow but they couldn't have told anyone about it and they couldn't have been forced into giving the information due to the Fidelius Charm.

Also remember that #12 Grimmauld has a lot more than just a Fidelius protecting it. It is also unplottable and Sirius said his father put just about every security spell imaginable onto that house!! I have a feeling that those protections are somewhat determined by the owner, which would have been Sirius and is now Harry. So if they didn't want Bella to find the house then I don't think she could!

So Hagrid the Dumbledore, etc already knew the location of the Potters in Godric's HollowSo Peter told them the Secret and then both of them decided it was Sirius Black who betrayed the Potters?

Also remember that #12 Grimmauld has a lot more than just a Fidelius protecting it. It is also unplottable and Sirius said his father put just about every security spell imaginable onto that house!! I have a feeling that those protections are somewhat determined by the owner, which would have been Sirius and is now Harry. So if they didn't want Bella to find the house then I don't think she could!But remember Harry couldn't see the house until Moody showed him the paper that Dumbledore had written on then it became visible. The thing hiding the house was the fidelius charm.

Well yes, Fidelius is protecting the house, but that's not the only thing! We can assume that Bella already knows about #12 Grimmauld due to it being in her family but she could peer in the window and not even see the Order members due to Fidelius. However in the case of Voldemort, himself, I doubt he could even find the house due to all the other protections!

In the case of Godric's Hollow and the Potters, if I remember correctly, Sirius was originally the secret keeper and it was likely him who told Dumbledore, Hagrid and anyone else the location of the Potters. Then, thinking they were being crafty and that no one would suspect them of using Wormtail as secret keeper, they quietly changed keepers, not really telling anyone. I'm pretty sure Sirius mentions something to that effect in PoA. That's partly why they suspected Sirius. Then when he 'supposedly' murdered Pettigrew and all those muggles, they thought their suspicions had been confirmed!

Well, when Voldemort murdered James and Lily Potter, the curse that repelled off from Harry destroyed the house, most likely disabling the Fidelius Charm. Also, Harry was rescued from the house by Hagrid, who was working on Dumbledore's orders, who must have known the secret location and when he gave it to Hagrid he could not see the house and rescue him. One of the two had to happen.

In the case of Godric's Hollow and the Potters, if I remember correctly, Sirius was originally the secret keeper and it was likely him who told Dumbledore, Hagrid and anyone else the location of the Potters. Then, thinking they were being crafty and that no one would suspect them of using Wormtail as secret keeper, they quietly changed keepers, not really telling anyone. I'm pretty sure Sirius mentions something to that effect in PoA. That's partly why they suspected Sirius. Then when he 'supposedly' murdered Pettigrew and all those muggles, they thought their suspicions had been confirmed!
This is certainly possible and I think this is definitely one of the more plausible ideas. It makes a lot of sense actually. I don't know why I dismissed this before because I'm sure someone else mentioned it. According to the book the Fidelius Charm had been performed for a week. During this week Sirius probably told everyone about the secret and then the night he was going into hiding he switched secrets with Pettigrew. The main problem I have with this theory as I've said before is that Dumbledore, Sirius and the Potters suspected that someone in their midst was a traitor and if they weren't going to be able to hide from this person (Sirius suspected Lupin) then it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. I've also pointed out that Sirius's parents entertained dark wizards who would know the location of Grimmauld Place and it just seems unsafe for the Order to set up locale somewhere where Dark Wizards could potentially visit because they knew the location before. However, despite my objections I do believe this is the closest I've come to seeing how it could happen. This and the notes.

ETA: Another thing I want to know is: What exactly was the secret? Flitwick implied that it wasn't the house because he said Voldemort could look through the house and not see the Potters. Does that mean the secret was on the Potters' themselves? If so, Hagrid was able to find Harry because the charm was broken and not simply because he'd been in on the secret before. If the secret was actually on Harry and only those who knew the secret before would be able to see him, then since everyone in the Wizarding World is able to see Harry it means that the secret was definitely broken somehow if it was on the Potters in the first place and not the house.

Cheers :tu:

Yes I've wondered about Grimmauld myself. It always seemed somewhat foolish or reckless to make headquarters in a location where Dark Wizard families had visited in the past. The only explanation I can think of is that the magical spells and protections cast on the house or property must be somehow attune to the house's owner? So when ownership passed to Sirius, it would be him who would have to reveal the location to anyone wishing to go there? Then I'm sure they cast a new Fidelius when the order decided to take up residence... maybe they even had to cast yet another Fidelius when Harry became the rightful owner, as well. So maybe once the ownership changes hands, even those who have been there in the past aren't able to find it anymore unless the rightful owner or secret keeper reveals it to them once again?

Hmm... ok good question cgold. Does that have to mean the charm was broken, though? If we assume that select members of the Order already knew the Potters' location then the charm didn't have to be broken for say, Hagrid to know where to find them. We know Peter told RiddleMort and most likely the other DE's also, so they could find James and Lily easily enough. So if we agree that Hagrid already knew and Peter revealed it to everyone else, the charm could have still been in effect even through all the events of that evening. Does that make sense?

Yes I've wondered about Grimmauld myself. It always seemed somewhat foolish or reckless to make headquarters in a location where Dark Wizard families had visited in the past. The only explanation I can think of is that the magical spells and protections cast on the house or property must be somehow attune to the house's owner? So when ownership passed to Sirius, it would be him who would have to reveal the location to anyone wishing to go there? Then I'm sure they cast a new Fidelius when the order decided to take up residence... maybe they even had to cast yet another Fidelius when Harry became the rightful owner, as well. So maybe once the ownership changes hands, even those who have been there in the past aren't able to find it anymore unless the rightful owner or secret keeper reveals it to them once again?
Which also makes sense because Dumbledore had every intention of moving shop if Kreacher had not passed on to Harry when Sirius died. It probably means that there are spells that if you're not welcome, then you can't find the house. Maybe those dark wizards couldn't find Grimmauld Place once Sirius didn't want them to know and it wasn't simply the Fidelius Charm. To be honest, I'm getting slightly confused. I think I'm going to read the books again to see if I can fully understand exactly how these charms appear to work because if they could keep everyone out then it's almost what's the point of the Secret Keeper. I think Secret Keepers are dangerous because this thing is inside one single soul and if they die, the secret is not broken. I'm sure JK said that the secret does not die with the secret keeper.


Hmm... ok good question cgold. Does that have to mean the charm was broken, though? If we assume that select members of the Order already knew the Potters' location then the charm didn't have to be broken for say, Hagrid to know where to find them. We know Peter told RiddleMort and most likely the other DE's also, so they could find James and Lily easily enough. So if we agree that Hagrid already knew and Peter revealed it to everyone else, the charm could have still been in effect even through all the events of that evening. Does that make sense? No, Peter could not have revealed it because no one knew Peter was the secret keeper except Sirius and the Potters. Sirius definitely had to be the one that told them the secret before. The charm definitely had to be broken because then no one, e.g. Ron, Hermione, the Dursleys, etc should be able to see Harry if the secret was still in effect. Of course, I'm sure Pettigrew could simply have lifted the secret but why would he? It would be perfect if Harry was lost to the world forever. Someone suggested that perhaps Lily cast the spell and when she died the spell broke but as I said before, JK did say that spell doesn't die with the secret keeper's death. If another can cast the spell, I don't know that it dies with them either.

Cheers :tu:

Yes I must admit I get a bit confused on some of the spells and charms also! Some are broken when the caster dies while others are perpetual. I think Fidelius is basically permanent, however, the secret keeper can reveal the information. Now can the people being protected also remove the spell? Or if the people being protected are killed, like the Potters, is the spell automatically lifted? Perhaps that is the key. The secret keeper might take the secret to their grave but if those under it's protection are killed, Fidelius is broken and the bodies become visible? So then if the Fidelius in question was on the whole 'Potter Family', perhaps what broke the charm was not the destruction of the house but actually the death of James and Lily! That actually makes the most sense to me. Hope you agree!!

So then if the Fidelius in question was on the whole 'Potter Family', perhaps what broke the charm was not the destruction of the house but actually the death of James and Lily! That actually makes the most sense to me. Hope you agree!!
I would agree except it just seems as if Harry would have to die too to make this plausible. I just think the protection should still remain in place for Harry.

Well isn't Fidelius not just specific to the person but also the place? So while in the protected house, the Potters wouldn't appear to anyone who didn't know the secret. However, if James and Lily had gone to Diagon Alley they would have been fully visible to everyone there. That's why they had to stay in that house to avoid being discovered! Just like the members of the Order of the Phoenix are not invisible or 'protected' when they leave Grimmauld Place!! So that would explain why Harry is completely visible to everyone. Perhaps if he returned to the ruins of his parents house he would seem to be invisible? Or perhaps since the house was destroyed, that part of the magic is gone and the charm is broken? Any thoughts?

Perhaps the Fidelius charm is broken if one or more of the people it was protecting die? I mean, alot of people seem to think the charm was on the house, but somehow I don't think so. Remember, Flitwick may have said that he (Voldy) could have had his nose pressed against their sitting room window and not found them, but he also said he could have searched the village where they live, and never found them (even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window etc)

Which leads me to believe that it was probably on them and not the village, except that makes things more difficult to decipher, as we don't really know for sure everything about the Fidelius charm (and I think JKR has kept us in the dark for a reason) but it seems possible, I mean, they were already planning to go into hiding, and while I think it "might" be possible, that they Fidelius charm could be placed on people, rather than just a thing, it would also probably have parameters that did not allow them to just wander around anywhere either, and its possible just one of them dying could have ruined the charm (even if it was on their house rather than them) remember Dumbledore wasn't sure if all of the enchantments on Grimmauld Place (like the Fidelius charm) would be working properly after Sirius died. And it seems it is so complex that even Dumbledore isn't entirely sure how it works. Perhaps if it changes hands at all that upsets the charm? If it is immensely complex it could also be extremely delicate. I dunno, just something to think about.

So Peter told them the Secret and then both of them decided it was Sirius Black who betrayed the Potters?

They may have known before the charm was cast at all...

Perhaps if he returned to the ruins of his parents house he would seem to be invisible? Or perhaps since the house was destroyed, that part of the magic is gone and the charm is broken? Any thoughts?

I would guess he'd still be visible because he wouldn't actualy be hiding there, just visiting.

I think it makes the most sense if it is on the location and not the people.
1. It is true that if someone knows the location or individuals in the charmed house leave i.e. like sirius and grimmauld place they do become visible. Only the house was invisble not the occupants
2. 12 Grimmauld place was invislbe to Harry. So I would assume that the property/location is not known or visible to an individual but if the Potters left the house they would become visible. Otherwise the location of where someone is staying is compltely irrelevant. If the Potters could leave Godrics Hollow at will and still be invisible it wouldn't matter where they were staying. So I think the charm would work on the location rather than the people otherwise there is no explanation for it not protecting baby Harry.

I have to say I really enjoy debating this stuff with you guys! You all have great ideas and you challenge me to really think things through to try and explain some of the more complex plot points and concepts in the Potter books!

Ok as you've seen, I've posted a few times on the Fidelius/Godric's Hollow/Grimmauld Place topic and I've given this some thought so I'll try to be as concise as possible (wish me luck).

First I think we need to agree (or understand) that while the Potters in Godric's Hollow were protected by the Fidelius Charm, #12 Grimmauld Place is protected by numerous spells, protections and muggle-repelling charms, including being unplottable, unnoticeable and many other enchantments I'd have to look up to find the proper names for!! Now once Sirius started living there and the Order of the Phoenix took it up as headquarters, I think they also added the Fidelius Charm for good measure, on top of all the other protections already in place. I think #12 being invisible when Harry first arrives is another spell or enchantment and I don't think it has anything to do with Fidelius.

Now getting back to Fidelius and Godric's Hollow, I also remember reading the quote about Voldemort being able to press his nose to the window and not being able to see the Potters inside. That seems to suggest that Fidelius doesn't actually hide the house, just the occupants the charm is protecting. Which brings me back to the most recent ammendment to my explanation. The Fidelius Charm has to be specific to both the location AND the people being protected or hidden. So they will only be hidden while they remain in that location and I think we can all agree that upon leaving the house, they would have been visible and vulnerable. Now I also believe the charm would be broken if the 'location', in this case the Potters' house is destroyed (as it was). Also, I think the wording of who the charm protects could be significant. If the charm had been worded to protect 'the Potter family' then wouldn't the charm be broken once James and Lily were killed, leaving only baby Harry?

Ok I did my best to put my explanation together as clearly as possible! Success? You be the judge!!

Ok I'm willing to believe you however I have a few points to raise.

With regards to grimmauld place you are right there are all sorts of charms in place. However the only reason I was thinking about Fidelius charm is because once Harry read the note the house ebcame visible. Although maybe the two charms don't necessarily work independent of each other. However knowing the location of the headquarters of the order allowed him to see the house. So I had assumed that it was Fidelius that meant he couldn't see it however you may very well be right.

I can see what you mean about it working on the location and the people. However if the house is visible then it is clearly not hiding the location. It is only hiding the people INSIDE the location.

In another scenario if Voldemort had known about Godrics Hollows before and knew the house and pressed his face up against the window he wouldn't have seen the Potters. If he suspected they were in the house and forced entry would he then still not be able to see the Potters? It jsut seems to me if the house is visible then Fidelius is not a very good protection. If I set up survellience and watched the occupants of a street I would notice that no one seemed to enter or leave a house and would probably know my victims resided in that house. Where as if the house was not visible until someone told me the location of said people it would work a lot better.

Is it possible Lilly somehow lifted this charm? Slughorn did say she was good with charms.

Was this Dumbledore's plan B? If something goes wrong lift this spell so I will know what happened?

Maybe the charm didn't work anymore once the house was attacked and/or Potters dead. Or Sirius, seeing Pettigrew isn't at his place, alerted Dumbledore before going to check GH.

I always thought this charm protected Lilly and James and Harry when staying in their house.

Is it possible Lilly somehow lifted this charm?

Not unless if she was the caster of the spell. ;)


Was this Dumbledore's plan B? If something goes wrong lift this spell so I will know what happened?


No, one but the caster can lift the secret keeper charm. ;)

Pettigrew alerted everyone? I doubt that...unless you mean to say when he gave away the secret to LV, the charm was lifted.

I'm thinking Sirius alerted Dumbledore and he sent out Hagrid.

Pettigrew alerted everyone? I doubt that...unless you mean to say when he gave away the secret to LV, the charm was lifted.

I said neither. :no:

I'm thinking Sirius alerted Dumbledore and he sent out Hagrid.

I don't think so, because it was believed that Sirius was the secret keeper and it was he, who had betrayed the Potter's so if he had tried alerting Dumbledore, then Dumbledore would have found something suspicious and would have helped Sirius out of Azkaban, rather than give evidence against him. ;)

As for who alerted Dumbledore, I am sure he had had spies around to keep an eye on the Potters, like Mr Tibbles. ;)

Is it possible Lilly somehow lifted this charm? Slughorn did say she was good with charms.
I think that may very well be the case. She could have been the caster and then would undo the spell when Voldemort was fighting James so that people would be able to find them.

I said neither. :no:

As for who alerted Dumbledore, I am sure he had had spies around to keep an eye on the Potters, like Mr Tibbles. ;)

So you think he might have had them followed all the way to godrics hollow? How did he know they were there in the first place to have people spy on them?

I was re reading HBP and astounded by the similarity of two seperate instances.

1. The description of GH after Voldemort's attack with the damage done.
2. The description of Slughorn's residence the socalled destruction.

Dumbledore says to Slughorn that all that was missing was the Dark Mark.

This made me wonder was there a dark mark present at GH.

Apon a search of the threads I found a reference to version 1 of this thread, by Padfoot Returns, post no' 510. Yet no other.

So was there a Dark Mark at GH or not?

I couldn't find any mention in the books. Although I'm a believer that Dumbledore staged or planned the scene of GH, just as Slughorn staged his in HBP. Dumbledore being in the know as to what was needed to be utterly convincing.

I became aware that if there was a Dark Mark at GH this could solve the problem as to how the house was found despite the Fedilius Charm.

Any comments , thoughts or rebuttles welcome...:D

The only think I can think to argue that is that maybe Voldemort did not yeth have time to use the Dark Mark. Otherwise, good theory!

When Hagrid found Harry, he told Dumbledore that muggles were about to swarm the place.

That means that muggles could see the Potter house.

That means that the spell had to be lifted or broken.

When Hagrid found Harry, he told Dumbledore that muggles were about to swarm the place.

That means that muggles could see the Potter house.

That means that the spell had to be lifted or broken.


I took this as an indication that they were weary of muggles being witness to wizards going about their business. Would require ministry intervention... not a Dumbledore thing...

No, one but the caster can lift the secret keeper charm. ;)Has Rowling ever confirmed that? It would make sense, I suppose. But would she have lifted it? Everything happened so very quickly.

One thing to keep in mind is what was secret and what was not. The secret seems to be something like the Potters are at <address> Godric's Hollow. Things like the house blowing up or their dying there are different statements, and not subject to the same Fidelius Charm. (Wording seems to be important in Potterverse.)

As for who alerted Dumbledore, I am sure he had had spies around to keep an eye on the Potters, like Mr Tibbles. ;)Or Hagrid. Just as Dumbledore had people watching the Dept. of Mysteries and Harry in Order, he probably had people watching Godrics Hollow. Hagrid got there before the firemen did: he could well have been watching the house. Of course, Voldemort could easily have gotten in without Hagrid seeing anything: stealth obviously was one of Voldemort's strong suits. Pettigrew could have come and gone quite easily, too: rats are hard to spot.

I think that the fidelius charm was just put on the house and not the property, and when the house was dstroyed the charm was lifted.

I think that the fidelius charm was just put on the house and not the property, and when the house was dstroyed the charm was lifted.We have one example of the Fidelius Charm, and that was very specific: it stated where the Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix was. So, it is a concept that is kept secret: X is Y (e.g., X = the Potters, Y= hiding at <address> Godrics Hollow).

The one thing we also need to worry about is how much Grimmauld Place is protected by other spells. We know that it is unplottable, and Sirius notes that his father put loads of spells on the place to prevent Muggles from seeing it.

Again, I think people are worrying about providing an explanation for an event that we do not know happened. We simply do not know that the Fidelius Charm was broken. Pettigrew told Voldemort, yes, but we have no reason to think that everybody now knows the secret that Pettigrew held.

I think that maybe once the Potters were killed and the house destroyed the charm would have been void anyway. There was practically no house to hide when Hagrid showed up.

Yeah, with the ones the charm protected dead, the charm would probably have lifted.

Unless it was the secret-keeper that died...perhaps Peter Pettigrew wasn't the secret-keeper after all. Well, maybe not. First we were convinced it was Sirius Black, then at the end of PoA we knew it wasn't Sirius at all but Peter. I am doubting that Jo would change it on us again...

But there's also the possibility that Hagrid knew roughly where to go but couldn't see the house or something. Harry would have had a shock and his parents weren't responding to his cries. I would imagine, though young, he might crawl as soon as he heard the recognisable sounds of Sirius' motorbike and leave the house himself, but to meet Hagrid before his godfather...maybe?

I say Dumbledore new that something was going to happen and instantly sent Hagrid there. Not to mention Sirius was there so that's a possibility too.

But there's also the possibility that Hagrid knew roughly where to go but couldn't see the house or something. Harry would have had a shock and his parents weren't responding to his cries. I would imagine, though young, he might crawl as soon as he heard the recognisable sounds of Sirius' motorbike and leave the house himself, but to meet Hagrid before his godfather...maybe?That does not quite jibe with what Hagrid says. Hagrid went into the house and pulled him out. The most likely scenario is that Hagrid knew the secret, but that Hagrid did not know that Sirius was supposed to be the secret keeper. The Fidelius Charm seems to be rather arcane magic, after all: Madame Rosmerta has to ask for clarification, and she seems to be a practicing witch.

I say Dumbledore new that something was going to happen and instantly sent Hagrid there. Given what we see in Order, it is quite probable that Dumbledore had someone stationed there all along. Hagrid would be a good bet, given that he got into the house so quickly.

That does not quite jibe with what Hagrid says. Hagrid went into the house and pulled him out. The most likely scenario is that Hagrid knew the secret, but that Hagrid did not know that Sirius was supposed to be the secret keeper. The Fidelius Charm seems to be rather arcane magic, after all: Madame Rosmerta has to ask for clarification, and she seems to be a practicing witch.


How could he know the secret if he didn't know who the secret keeper was? Only the secret keeper can disclose the secret.

Assuming that Godrics Hallow was indeed the Potter's home prior to when they went into hiding, I'm sure that plenty of people knew where they lived. Much like, I'd assume, Bellatrix, Narcissa, Andromeda and various others would know where 12 Grimmauld Place was, and at least assume that Sirius was there. Also if the Fidelus Charm was on the house itself, the house was 'in ruins' so it would be the property of or surronding Godric's Hallow.

Wouldn't the other members of the OOTP know the secret, so then they would know where to go anyway.

My thoughts were that whoever rescued Harry was whoever the "other person" was who was in Godric's Hollow and they passed Harry on to Hagrid...my thoughts are that it was Snape who went there with Voldemort but passed Harry on to Hagrid that night, thus making Dumbledore trust him "with his life".

Alternatively, th fidelius charm was only used to conceal the family from Voldemort by making their home invisible to sight. Surely when Voldy killed James and Lily there would be a huge dark mark over the building so anyone going to find Harry would know where the place was?

Again:

When Hagrid found Harry, he told Dumbledore that muggles were about to swarm the place.

That means that muggles could see the Potter house.

That means that the spell had to be lifted or broken.

Again:

When Hagrid found Harry, he told Dumbledore that muggles were about to swarm the place.

That means that muggles could see the Potter house.

That means that the spell had to be lifted or broken.

But we don't know that the house itself was hidden in the first place - in fact, Flitwick's explanation of the charm suggested it wasn't.

i think that when Peter told the secret to Voldemort and Voldemort killed Lily and James, the charm had no more use to be there so it was lifted. That's why Hagrid was able to find Harry.

I don't know if I'm the only one but this "secret keeper" business is soooo confusing. =} In the "Goblet of Fire" it mentions a potion, "Its a Veritaserum - a Truth Potion so powerful that three drops would have you spilling your innermost secrets...said Snape viciously." (pg. 517; US). So is it possible that whomever the secret keeper was someone used the Truth Potion to get information about the location of the house. If I'm also correct didn't Harry use the same potion on Horace Slughorn to get information out of him about Voldermort?

I don't know if I'm the only one but this "secret keeper" business is soooo confusing. =} In the "Goblet of Fire" it mentions a potion, "Its a Veritaserum - a Truth Potion so powerful that three drops would have you spilling your innermost secrets...said Snape viciously." (pg. 517; US). So is it possible that whomever the secret keeper was someone used the Truth Potion to get information about the location of the house. If I'm also correct didn't Harry use the same potion on Horace Slughorn to get information out of him about Voldermort?
:welcome: RancidRebel!

Secret keeper business confusing? Are you kidding? Every time I reply to a thread involving the Fidelius Charm I end up apologizing for talking about things I don't understand...:lol: I've never understood it properly, but that's not reason enough not to talk about it! (JKR has not told us all there is to know about it anyway...)

Harry did not use Veritaserum on Slughorn. Slughorn just had too much to drink... (alcohol, that is!), and Harry had taken som Felix Felicis earlier that evening, which helped him use the right words to convince Slughorn to give the real memory to Harry. No Veritaserum involved, none needed...

As for using Veritaserum on a Secret Keeper, I don't think that would work. Even though Veritaserum is a difficult potion to brew, using it on a Secret Keeper to get information s/he would not otherwise divulge would be a fairly easy way of getting around a Fidelius Charm. I have no idea what would happen, but it seems a bit too easy for me. But I guess it is possible to force a secret out of a Secret Keeper, otherwise the Potters would not have hidden the fact that it was Peter, not Sirius... However, there doesn't seem to have been any special protection around Sirius, who was, after all, the Secret Keeper as far as anyone but himself, the Potters, and Peter, knew. After all, he went to check on Peter, and we don't know that anyone accompanied him, or anything. But there may be stuff here we don't know yet.

There you go, I've managed to get myself confused yet again! Why didn't they just make Sirius the Secret Keeper and be done with it, instead of providing us with all this complicated discussion topics...:grumble: (I hope you all recognize irony when you see it - even if it's not dancing naked in front of you wearing Dobby's tea cosy! :D)

But we don't know that the house itself was hidden in the first place - in fact, Flitwick's explanation of the charm suggested it wasn't.

That's very true. So the occupants of the house are hidden but not the actual house. So maybe Dumbledore told Hagrid that they were in Godrics Hollow and the ruined house enabled Hagrid to be able to pinpoint Harry. Possibly as well with the house in ruins the charm no longer works.
I've always assumed that before Pettigrew was made secret keeper Dumbledore knew the location of where the potters were going to hide anyway!

I thought the moment the betrayal occured,the charm was broken.

I thought the moment the betrayal occured,the charm was broken.
I know what you mean, but I don't think there's any canon evidence that the Fidelius Charm includes reference to who the secret is to be kept from. We only know that the Secret Keeper is the only one who can divulge the secret. As far as I know, there's no reason to believe that the identity of the person(s) told about the secret affects the charm in itself.

perhaps because hagrid knew the location and was told by pettigrew? common sense really

:welcome: RancidRebel!

Secret keeper business confusing? Are you kidding? Every time I reply to a thread involving the Fidelius Charm I end up apologizing for talking about things I don't understand...:lol: I've never understood it properly, but that's not reason enough not to talk about it! (JKR has not told us all there is to know about it anyway...)

Harry did not use Veritaserum on Slughorn. Slughorn just had too much to drink... (alcohol, that is!), and Harry had taken som Felix Felicis earlier that evening, which helped him use the right words to convince Slughorn to give the real memory to Harry. No Veritaserum involved, none needed...

As for using Veritaserum on a Secret Keeper, I don't think that would work. Even though Veritaserum is a difficult potion to brew, using it on a Secret Keeper to get information s/he would not otherwise divulge would be a fairly easy way of getting around a Fidelius Charm. I have no idea what would happen, but it seems a bit too easy for me. But I guess it is possible to force a secret out of a Secret Keeper, otherwise the Potters would not have hidden the fact that it was Peter, not Sirius... However, there doesn't seem to have been any special protection around Sirius, who was, after all, the Secret Keeper as far as anyone but himself, the Potters, and Peter, knew. After all, he went to check on Peter, and we don't know that anyone accompanied him, or anything. But there may be stuff here we don't know yet.

There you go, I've managed to get myself confused yet again! Why didn't they just make Sirius the Secret Keeper and be done with it, instead of providing us with all this complicated discussion topics...:grumble: (I hope you all recognize irony when you see it - even if it's not dancing naked in front of you wearing Dobby's tea cosy! :D)

Thank you so much for the welcome. Yeah I can't keep up with all the spells and potions. :lol: Thanks for clearing that up for me. The thing that makes it so hard is things can change everytime you look at. I think one of things that makes it so hard is truly understand the whole "secret keeper". I try to look at it as..if I told someone a secret and told them not to tell anyone or I'd kill them. And then someone came and asked someone if they knew my secret, but said no she didn't tell me her secret so I can't tell you. Does that make sense? Okay, I think I'm confusing myself so I'll stop now.

Again, I think people are worrying about providing an explanation for an event that we do not know happened. We simply do not know that the Fidelius Charm was broken. Pettigrew told Voldemort, yes, but we have no reason to think that everybody now knows the secret that Pettigrew held.
Actually, we do I think.

I'm certain that during the course of the books, Ron and Hermione have been told the story of the potters etc. Even mentioning that he wants to go back to GH to visit etc at the end of HBP sounds like it would violate the Fidelius charm.
This would imply that the charm has been broken, at least by Harry's time.


The key questions are: Who cast the charm, how many people were told the secret, who told DD that something had happened, and would the charm survive the death of the caster. Also, if one knows the secret before the charm is cast, does one still know it afterwards

The first question comes down to about 4 possibles. Lilly, James, Peter, and Sirius. If we assume that the charm fails on th death of the caster then Sirius is out. (Too obvious a way to break it) A second (good) assumption is that the secret keeper and the caster should not be the same person. (Eggs and baskets) which leaves us with Lilly and James. (We know it couldn't be DD since he would then have to know about Peter)

Who got told. Sirius. Maybe. Since the idea was for Sirius to be the keeper, and go into hiding, and since they really trusted no-one, they told no-one. If the secret was perfectly safe, why would Sirius need to go into hiding? Obviously they were woried that Voldy might possibly be able to extract the secret from the keeper somehow. SO Peter gets to be the keeper, tells Sirius the secret and Sirius goes around saying that he's not going to tell anyone because they don't know who to trust no not even his good friends Remus and Peter.
Telling anyone else involves some stretches like notes from Peter in Sirius' hand writing or shifting the secret keeper around etc. Possible but it doesn't seem likely without hearing more on the topic from JKR. It could also be possible that if you know the secret before the charm is cast, you still know the secret but just can't divulge it. This would actually get DD and Hagrid into the loop without messing around with the Peter/Sirius thing.

Thirdly, who told DD that something had happened. I believe it would have been Sirius who told DD, and that he could do so because the Fidelius had ended with the death of the caster. Or Snape could have told DD that sometihng had happened to Voldy (The arm tattoo thing fading) and DD could guess what.

Does the charm survive the death of the caster. Almost unknowable really. We have two known Fidelius charms and don't know who cast either of them. Though I strongly suspect that the first one is broken and that its most probable casters are dead, and that the second one seems not to be broken and we know that its secret keeper is dead. I lean toward the charm failing on the death of the caster.
Or even, if there's only one 'caster'

MAybe when the house was burned the charm on it died.

I have not read all the postings yet...
If Harry was rescued there was no Fidelius Charm in place, then the question becomes when and by whom the charm was broken. James and Lilly in the event of danger could have broken the charm to call for help. At that point, the house will be visible to anyone friend or foe.

Just as an slightly out there version.

Sirius goes to the Potter's place. We know that Sirius knew the secret so he could go there.
Sirius finds the house destroyed, picks Harry up from the rubble, and steps outside the house to send a mesage to DD that something has happened and to meet him in the village/outside the house etc. Presumably, outside of the charm.
Hagrid turns up, gets Harry from Sirius, or even picks him up because Sirius is investigating the house and has put Harry down.

Just as an slightly out there version.

Sirius goes to the Potter's place. We know that Sirius knew the secret so he could go there.
Sirius finds the house destroyed, picks Harry up from the rubble, and steps outside the house to send a mesage to DD that something has happened and to meet him in the village/outside the house etc. Presumably, outside of the charm.
Hagrid turns up, gets Harry from Sirius, or even picks him up because Sirius is investigating the house and has put Harry down.

The problem is we know that Hagrid was the first to arrive at the house. So the question we are all wondering is how did Hagrid know to go there? Who told him the location?. I think somewhere else someone suggested amybe Peter sent notes to people in the order telling them of the location of the Potters and people did not recognise that it was Peter's handwriting and not Sirius'. Or they just assumed it was Sirius that had sent them the note. If Harry had not been told that Dumbeldore was the secret keeper of Grimmauld Place would he have known from the handwriting alone that it was Dumbledore?

i'm guessing dumbledore thought it would be a good idea to check the house every once in a while. i'd say dumbledore told hagrid to go check it out.

as for the fidelius charm, i think it brakes if the house is destroyed

However the charm works, I still think it "odd", that the person chosen just happens to be the very person it shouldn't, maybe that just a "tweek" of the story. I smell something fishy...

If Godric's Hollow was the Potter's home, it was likely to have been inherited from James' parents. As such Serius lived there aswell and as such would know the location. He did not need to see Lily and James to know they were there.

I think that it would be dependant on the way the secret was phrased for the Fidelius charm. If the secret was 'The Potters are living at xxxx', xxxx being the name of the house, then the charm would be broken if those weren't the facts anymore, as in if the Potters weren't living there anymore since the house was destroyed. Whatever happened, we know that the charm was indeed broken, because muggles were beginning to swarm the area.

If the secret was 'The Potters are living at xxxx', xxxx being the name of the house, then the charm would be broken if those weren't the facts anymore, as in if the Potters weren't living there anymore since the house was destroyed.
You make a very good point. They certainly couldn't be living there any more once they were dead. And even Harry couldn't live there any more because his parents weren't there for him and the house was destroyed.

I was thinking about this situation in the bath after rereading the books last week. My initial train of thought was why the Fidelius Charm was cast but I'll address that in a separate thread.

So, my thinking on the Fidelius Charm:

1) The subject of the Fidelius Charm can be either a person/people or an object/place. If the subject is a person then that person is invisible to anyone who does not know the secret and if it is a building then the building is invisble.
In the case of 12 Grimmauld place the Charm is on the Building. In OotP Harry was stood in front of 11 Grimmauld place but until he read the note stating that 12 Grimmauld Place was the location of the HQ he could not see number 12. Therefore anyone who Dumbledore has not told will not see the building. They may know that Sirius owns 12 Grimmauld Place and they can go there but they will not see the house. If they can't see the house they can't get into it.
In the case of the Potters we simply don't know for certain if the Charm is on the Potters or the house. Just because Flitwick's explanation states that someone could look through the sitting room window and not see them does not mean that the Charm is on the Potters. Only those involved in casting the Charm would know that.
My opinion, based on the FAQ poll on JKR's site, is that the Charm was on the House. JKR suggests that 1 of the Potters could have been captured but would have been unable to divulge the location of the others. For 1 to be captured and not the others means that if the Charm was on the people then it must have been on each person individually. This means that unless Pettigrew told each Potter the location of the other 2 they would not be able to see each other and in OotP Harry has to think about the secret he has just been told before he can see Grimmauld Place. I don't think a baby Harry would have been able to think about the subject and therefore wouldn't have been able to see his parents. Surely no parent would want their child to not be able to see them, imagine the distress the baby would be in. So, the Charm is on Godrics Hollow and if one of them leaves the house that person can be seen.

2) Anyone who knew the location before the Charm was cast will still know it afterwards.
Partially answered above. This is probably correct, however knowing something exists doesn't mean you know where it is. If the Charm was on the house where the Potters were staying then the house would be invisible. Incidentally a number of people have mentioned in this thread that anyone who knew the Potters would know where they lived but I have not been able to find anything in the books that states that Godrics Hollow was where the Potters lived. All I can find is that it is where they were staying. Presumably they would have gone to hide in Godrics Hollow at the time the charm was performed. This raises an additional question of why Godrics Hollow, did they just find a empty house or did it belong to someone they knew?

3) Who knows the secret?
The only people we can say definately knew are the Potters, Pettigrew and Voldemort. Others have suggested that Sirius, Hagrid and Dumbledore knew. While the text states that both Dumbledore and Sirius knew that the Fidelius Charm was going to be used we have nothing to prove that they knew more than that. It is highly unlikely that Sirius knew the details of the secret. Why would he want to know where the Potters were if he didn't want to be the Secret Keeper. He stated in POA that he would have died rather than betray his friends so he can't have been worried that he would tell someone the secret. If Dumbledore knew the secret he would have to have been told by Pettigrew and he would have then known that Pettigrew had been the Secret Keeper instead of Sirius. There is no-where in the books where it states that Sirius was the secret keeper and that this later changed. If Dumbledore didn't know the location why on earth would Hagrid. From this I make the assumption that no "good" guys knew the location of the Potters, if they had they would have to have been told by Pettigrew and would therefore have known that Pettigrew was the traitor and being the "good" guys would have told someone. Any number of bad guys could have heard the secret from Pettigrew.

4) How does the Fidelius Charm end?
The only thing we know as fact because JKR stated it on her website is that when a Secret Keeper dies those who knew the secret still know it but no-one else can find out. There is the possibility that the subject of the Secret could end the Charm although in some cases the subject is not a person which means that this couldn't be the only option. The Secret Keeper certainly couldn't go around telling everybody individually the secret but they perhaps have the option to end the charm. If anyone else was able to end the Charm it would defeat the object of performing the Charm in the first place. Some people have mentioned that if the house was detroyed that may end the Charm. I think that the house would have to be totally destroyed to the point it is no longer a house for that to happen. Imagine if James was making tea and accidentally set the house on fire. There'd have to be some sort of safeguard in place to stop the Potters suddenly popping into view. I haven't got my copy of SS with me at the moment so I don't have the description Hagrid gives of the house but I think that if the house had collapsed around Harry he would have had more injuries than a single scar.

5) So who did end the Charm hiding the Potters
Well as above it can only have been Lily, James, Harry or Pettigrew. I think we can rule out Harry straight away as he would barely have been able to talk let alone perform what is supposed to be a very complex charm. Why would Pettigrew lift the Charm? I suppose it is possible that Pettigrew was there with Voldemort and had enough compassion after Voldermort had gone poof! to make sure that someone could find Harry. However we have seen that Pettigrew, through his own actions and the testimony of the other marauders, always puts himself first. Surely he would not want anyone to find the Potters until he had made sure the only person who knew he had been the Secret Keeper was not in a position to accuse him. I personally do not think Pettigrew ended the Charm. The Fidelius Charm is described as being immensely complex. Surely such a charm would require something more than a flick of the wand and a short incantation to end it. According to what Harry hears when near to dementors (or Boggarts) in POA, they only had moments from knowing that Voldemort had arrived at the house to him entering the house. James immediately went to distract him and Lily to grab Harry. Voldemort obviously meant business and I assume killed James almost immediately and would have gone straight after Harry. James certainly would not have had time to remove the Charm and I imagine Lily was more concerned with protecting her son in the short time she would have had. So if Harry couldn't have done it, Pettigrew wouldn't have done it and Lily and James didn't get chance to do it, who was responsible?

My only conclusion, sad though I am to admit it, is that JKR is human after all. To be fair, when she wrote PS/SS she couldn't have foreseen the lengths that people like us go to in order to understand every part of the books so that we might learn what is to come.

OMG I can't believe how much I just typed. I'm sorry about the length.

There are 2 theories on this. One the charm ended once the house was destroyed and 2 Hagrid and DD were told. I kind of believe the second theory as they didn't need to be told in person they could have been handed a piece of paper like Harry was in OOTP. I don't think the charm has ended because 1 Harry was still alive and 2 the area where the house was is still there.

Since Pettigrew was a spy, he would have wanted to keep up the facade of being on the Potters' side. Being the secret keeper, he could tell anyone, but no one else could. He probably told DD or Sirius, and not being the secret keepers themselves, they can't tell anyone. And for the Potters' own protection, Dumbledore might have set Aurors or Order members on watch. One of them could have rescued Harry.

He probably told DD or Sirius, and not being the secret keepers themselves, they can't tell anyone

But then if he told DD only then DD would have been aware of the switch and Sirius wouldn't have been accused to betraying Lily and James. Also how would Hagrid have gotten Harry if he didn't know where he was

There are 2 theories on this. One the charm ended once the house was destroyed and 2 Hagrid and DD were told. I kind of believe the second theory as they didn't need to be told in person they could have been handed a piece of paper like Harry was in OOTP. I don't think the charm has ended because 1 Harry was still alive and 2 the area where the house was is still there.

Heres what bakes my noodle... dumbledoor couldnt have been told _AND_ he couldnt have been the one to perform the charm... He gave testimony to the ministry of magic that black was the secret keeper. He _OBVIOULSY_ would have not given testimony if he knew who the secret keeper was... he would _HAVE_ to know who the secret keeper was in order to be told.

I dont see many holes in JKR's stories... but this one has ticked me off for ages!

another one.. is why wouldnt they want dumbledoor to be secret keeper? he offered... no death eater would even attempt to torture it out of dumbledoore, voldemore was said to "never seek a fight" with dumbledoore..

dunno,

There are 2 theories on this. One the charm ended once the house was destroyed and 2 Hagrid and DD were told. I kind of believe the second theory as they didn't need to be told in person they could have been handed a piece of paper like Harry was in OOTP. I don't think the charm has ended because 1 Harry was still alive and 2 the area where the house was is still there.

I think Hagrid was told the secret - of course not personally by Pettigrew, but he could have been sent a note? Maybe Pettigrew gave Sirius a note, and Sirius passed it on to Hagrid, with Peter's consent? Would that work? The identity of the secret-keeper would still not be revealed that way, but the secret would.

Okay, wait, here's a strange theory: Sirius asked Peter to be secret-keeper. Then, to create a bluff, he got Peter to write a note to Hagrid, telling him of the secret, and this note would be given to Hagrid by Sirius, not Peter. In Sirius's eyes, he would think that even if Hagrid blabbed about the secret-keeper somewhere, the illusion would be that Sirius was the secret-keeper. Sirius would've thought this very clever. Peter would of course comply with this, because its one more reason people would believe Sirius was the secret-keeper.

I don't think Dumbledore knew the secret, or else he would have known it was Pettigrew, or else he would've gotten Harry out himself.

My only conclusion, sad though I am to admit it, is that JKR is human after all. To be fair, when she wrote PS/SS she couldn't have foreseen the lengths that people like us go to in order to understand every part of the books so that we might learn what is to come..

Harry Potter and the Pinch of Salt huh?

(Ok,I know the saying is taking something with a"grain of salt" but ...)

I strongly suspect that the charm died with the caster and that the caster had to be Lilly or James.

Getting to Harry isn't to hard. Knowing that something was wrong and knowing where to go look though.


Spies/guards in the area of Godric's Hollow (btw,is it a house or a village?) sort of gives the game away, since the Order couldn't really put itpast Voldy to nuke a 20 sq mile area just in case the Potters are in it.

Well Lily was the charms genius so I suspect she casted the spell. DD had to have known where Harry was to tell Hagrid to go and get him, well at least he would have known Hagrid knew. The note would have worked didn't Remus have the piece of paper that revealed the location of the order to Harry even though DD was the secret keeper. DD could have seen a note written by Pettigrew and known the location of the Potter's home. He wouldn't have been suspicious because DD never taught any of the marauders personally so wouldn't have recoginsed Pettigrew's writing. If it had of been McGonagall she would have been suspicious and told DD that it wasn't sirius' writing

I have a theroy. Maybe once the person or object that the charm was cast on was dead or destroyed the charm stopped working. so this leads me to belive that the charm was cast on the house. after all wasn't baby harry rescued from the wreckage of the house?? remember once dumbledore died the freezing charm put on harry lifted??

Couldn't the charm have been cast to hide the location of James and Lilly? Therefore, once they die, the charm would no longer hide Harry. Besides, the charm would have had to wear off for one reason or another, because there was something mentioned about Muggles going to look at the destruction, so they could see the house at this point.

Couldn't the charm have been cast to hide the location of James and Lilly? Therefore, once they die, the charm would no longer hide Harry. Besides, the charm would have had to wear off for one reason or another, because there was something mentioned about Muggles going to look at the destruction, so they could see the house at this point.
Theoretically, it's possible that only James and Lily were hidden by the charm. But why wouldn't they put the charm on Harry as well? I doesn't make sense that they would leave him out of it.

It's true that something must have happened to the charm, but I don't think this is the correct explanation. I find the partly destruction of the house more likely as a reason for the charm to stop working.

Excellent post (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=4457345&postcount=104) carib :clap:

I'd like to comment on a few things:

On 1.) 12 Grimmauld Place was not only invisible, it was not there. Invisibility means you can not see something but you would be able to touch or smell or feel it etc. 12 Grimmauld Place had to squeeze itself in between the other houses. (I know you knew that, but it's important for my comment on 2.)

On 2.)'An immensely complex spell' Prof. Flitwick said squeakily, 'involving the magical concealment of a secret in a single living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person or Secret Keeper and is henceforth impossible to find, unless of course the Secret Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them. Not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting-room window.' involving: The concealment of the secret is only one part of this 'immensely complex charm'. So what are the other parts? Likely creating the secret, in this case: what the place should look like to an outsider and making it inaccessible, but also making it unplottable and removing it from maps and memories.
Of course as you rightly said there is no canon proof the house at Godric's Hollow was the Potter's home before the Fidelius Charm was done.

On 3.) Here I really disagree. Sirius tells the truth, he would rather have died than to tell, but to die and to be tortured is something quite different. There are many magical ways of penetrating into a mind, and a man tortured into insanity can hardly be held responsible for divulging a secret.
I don't see why he would not want to be able to visit his best friend and his godson though. As long as he wasn't the Secret Keeper he could keep contact and wouldn't run the danger to divulge the secret if he was caught.
The plan was that Voldemort would try to get the information from Sirius I thought it was the perfect plan, a bluff. Voldemort would be sure to come after me … This bluff would work even better if Voldemort knew Sirius to be the Secret Keeper, Lupin evidently had known and he was suspected to be Voldemort's spy (PoA cp.19). The best way to do that was, to have Peter take Sirius-Polyjuice-Potion and tell the Order (including the spy) the secret, the spy wouldn't be able to tell the Potter's whereabouts but he would tell Voldemort to go after Sirius while Peter and the secret would have been safe.

On 4.+5.) Hagrid calls the house a ruin: (The curse) took care of your mum and dad and your house even … ...Took you from the ruined house myself, brought you to this lot. It was me what rescued Harry from Lily and James' house after they was killed. Just got him outa the ruins , poor little thing It's possible the damage to the house lifted the Charm, but I prefer another theory: I think Jo gave us two clues in HBP The Unbreakable Vow:
If the Fidelius Charm is done in a similar way there would be the secret the Secret Keeper and a Bounder, the person who casts the Charm. Lily's wand was good for charm work (PS/SS); so if she was a particularly good charmer she would be my choice to bring off this 'immensely complex' charm.
The full bodybind on Harry was lifted with Dumbledore's death:
So if the Fidelius Charm was cast by Lily her death could lift it.

Hey everyone, sorry if this has been discussed before mods feel free to move as appropriate if it has.

Right than, we all know that the Trio plan on going to Godrics Hollow in DH, now what they'll find there, who knows, i'm sure they'll want to see the remains of the Potter house.

It all depends if they can even find it.

The house was hidden by the Fidelius Charm right? Which means only Pettigrew would be able to tell the Trio where the house actually is. Harry could probably find it, after all he did live there, but would Ron and Hermione be able to see the house?

Now in PS/SS Hagrid obviously found the house and rescued baby Harry, which means either.

1. When the house was destroyed the charm was lifted.

or

2. Hagrid knew where it was, having been told by Pettigrew.

Why would Pettigrew tell Hagrid though? Who knows.

Could it be that Dumbledore didnt rescue Harry because he did not actually know where the house was, having never been told the secret location?

Of course this is all speculation, and the Fidelius Charm may have actually been cast on the Potter family, but I don't think it was, else noone would be able to see Harry without Pettigrew telling them where he was.

So i think the Charm was on the house, and presumably still is.

I think Hagrid knew, Pettigrew told him, for whatever reason, Hagrid didn't think anything of it, as he doesnt often take note of serious things, but when it was revealed the Potters were in danger he told Dumbledore he knew where they were, and he volunteered to go help out.

I do wonder though, if Pettigrew's debt to Harry is to be repaid, could Godrics Hollow have something to do with it?

Thoughts?

i thought that the charm was lifted when the house was destroyed but now that you mention Pettigrew's debt to Harry maybe pettigrew did tell Hagrid and would now tell Harry. although i think that Pettigrew would pay a different kind of debt, not this one.
its a good theory though

Hi, Ze Grindylow

you wrote: So i think the Charm was on the house, and presumably still is.

Hmm. The house is destroyed, it simply doesn´t exist anymore and because Godric´s Hollow is a Muggle village the Muggle community will probably have rebuilt something on this place. It´s nearly 17 years ago and I doubt the Muggle community doesn´t want to earn some money.

We're never explicitly told the house was TOTALLY destroyed though, as in razed to the floor, and since its under a charm, the Muggles wouldn't have seen it anyway. Think Grimmauld Place, when you know the location it just appears from between 2 others houses, same thing with the Potter house I'd think. Only now all that would appear was a wreck.

Hagrid never said the Muggles came out because of the house though, they probably heard the noise from Sirius' flying motorbike and wondered what that was, then heard Sirius and Hagrid talking, more than likely loudly in grief at the carnage before them, and just came to look a look, we all know how nosy neighbours can be in small villages, Aunt Petunia anyone?

And in OOTP when Dung apparates and there's a loud crack, the neighbours look out of the windows

OOTP Hardback British Edition page 10

"There was no sign of what caused the loud cracking noise, but there were several faces peering through various nearby windows"

So they might even have heard somebody apparating, and wondered what it was.

Do we know who cast the Fidelius Charm? If it had been Dumbledore, then he would have known Peter was the Secret Keeper. I always assumed James would have cast the Fidelius Charm, and the spell would have seized working when he died, so anyone could have found the house afterwards.

Dumbledore was worried that the Death Eaters might be able to find 12 Grimmauld Place after Sirius's death, so it's possible the death of the owner would make the Fidelius Charm and any other protective spells stop working.

I know that when the secret keeper dies the secret dies with them. Whether its true of ALL spells as well well i'm not sure.

Figures that Lily cast it, she had a wand that was "good for charms" after all.

Is it possible that Sirius told Hagrid before the secret keeper became Pettigrew?

Do we know who cast the Fidelius Charm? If it had been Dumbledore, then he would have known Peter was the Secret Keeper. I always assumed James would have cast the Fidelius Charm, and the spell would have seized working when he died, so anyone could have found the house afterwards.

Dumbledore was worried that the Death Eaters might be able to find 12 Grimmauld Place after Sirius's death, so it's possible the death of the owner would make the Fidelius Charm and any other protective spells stop working.

I think it's more likely that Lily cast the spell, but it had to be one of the two. The only people who knew about were Sirius (who's idea it was to switch to Peter), the Potters and Peter, himself. So one of the Potters must have done the casting since Sirius decided it was best if he had nothing to do with it. Thusly, as with all spells, it ends when it's caster dies. The secret-keeper could die and the secret remains, but when the caster dies the secret is out.

Dumbledore was worried that Kreacher belonged to Bellatrix after Sirius's death. And Kreacher probably knew who the secret keeper was and could take THAT information to the Death Eaters. As of now, though, 12 Grimmauld Place is still a secret!

It's possible the damage to the house lifted the Charm, but I prefer another theory:

**snip**

So if the Fidelius Charm was cast by Lily her death could lift it.

I don't believe the damage to the house was as extensive to lift the charm, but I am in agreement with the charm breaking upon Lily's death.

Also... Perhaps Lily lifted the charm herself and sent a Patronus for help instead of running with Harry while the "voice" was trying to hold off Voldemort.

Ollivander said Lily's first wand was good for Charms, so I think she cast it.
Sirius telling anyone that the SK was going to be Peter wouldn't make any difference. Once Peter is SK, he's the only one who can tell (in verbal or written form) the Secret.

There's still a lot we don't know about what happened there, before and after the Potters' deaths. It's possible that James was angry enough at Dumbledore for not trusting Sirius that he didn't want Dumbledore told the secret, but he asked Peter to inform Hagrid so that someone would know where they were (one problem with the Fidelius is that if the SK dies, no one ever knows where you are until you create another SK).

There are 2 theories on this. One the charm ended once the house was destroyed and 2 Hagrid and DD were told. I kind of believe the second theory as they didn't need to be told in person they could have been handed a piece of paper like Harry was in OOTP. I don't think the charm has ended because 1 Harry was still alive and 2 the area where the house was is still there.

Don't forget Sile, when Hagrid reported to Dumbledore in PS/SS that he got Harry just as Muggles were about to "swarm" the place.

That means the Muggles could see and find the house, which means the Charm was broken by then. Beyond a doubt.

Don't forget Sile, when Hagrid reported to Dumbledore in PS/SS that he got Harry just as Muggles were about to "swarm" the place.

That means the Muggles could see and find the house, which means the Charm was broken by then. Beyond a doubt.What Hagrid said was 'before the Muggles started swarming 'round.' He did not say they were 'just about to swarm the place' or 'to investigate what had happened to the house'. What Hagrid said can be interpreted to mean: 'Before the Muggles got up in the morning and all the commuters started swarming around'. So it's not beyond doubt that the Muggles could see the house. Even if they could it does not necessarily mean the Charm was lifted, Flitwick says in PoA : You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them. Not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting-room window.' I take that to mean that the Fidelius Charm does not necessarily involve invisibility of the house (and it's sitting-room window)

I think that the charm was indeed broken as Hagrid was able to go to the house and 'Muggles were swarming the place'.

What Hagrid said was 'before the Muggles started swarming 'round.' He did not say they were 'just about to swarm the place' or 'to investigate what had happened to the house'. What Hagrid said can be interpreted to mean: 'Before the Muggles got up in the morning and all the commuters started swarming around'.

Oh my...someone else believes this could be possible. I am so excited.:huggles:

I'm sorry if this has already been said and i have missed an important point in my theory. If the assumption is that Lily cast the charm then when she was killed would the charm not be lifted? I assume it would mean that a secret keeper no longer existed and everyone could see the Potters house.

I'm sorry if this has already been said and i have missed an important point in my theory. If the assumption is that Lily cast the charm then when she was killed would the charm not be lifted? I assume it would mean that a secret keeper no longer existed and everyone could see the Potters house.

That is my assumption as well, but it isn't a proven fact that the charm would break upon her death. We have seen charms break upon death, so it is very possible. I wonder what happeneds if the caster of the charm and the secret keeper are the same person and that person dies? Does the charm break or does the keeper take the secret to the grave???? :hmm:

I wonder what happeneds if the caster of the charm and the secret keeper are the same person and that person dies? Does the charm break or does the keeper take the secret to the grave???? :hmm:

I think i would start at the beginning which would be with the caster and assume that the spell would break rather than the secret lost as it was the castors magic which created the spell. But as i said it would just be an assumption.

Oh my...someone else believes this could be possible. I am so excited. :) ,but when was the secret lifted then? Because people can talk freely about GH now, so the Charm must be gone.

I'm convinced that the caster of the Charm can lift it and if (s)he dies the Charm will be lifted as well or it may fade slowly away. Otherwise no new Ordermember would ever be able to get into Grimmauld Place now that Dumbledore is dead.

well, DD was secret keeper for grimmauld place, and if u saw the place of it in his handwriting, u could find grimmauld place. perhaps they made Peter tell evryone in the Order were the Potters lived.

well, DD was secret keeper for grimmauld place, and if u saw the place of it in his handwriting, u could find grimmauld place. perhaps they made Peter tell evryone in the Order were the Potters lived.

But no one in the order knew Peter was the secret keeper. And considering James, Peter, Sirius and Lupin were such good friends throughout school they should have been able to recognise Peters handwriting.

:) ,but when was the secret lifted then? Because people can talk freely about GH now, so the Charm must be gone.

I'm convinced that the caster of the Charm can lift it and if (s)he dies the Charm will be lifted as well or it may fade slowly away. Otherwise no new Ordermember would ever be able to get into Grimmauld Place now that Dumbledore is dead.

There could be a lot of changes made now that Dumbledore is dead. But as far as the Order headquarters, Dumbledore could have put a sticking charm or something like that to cause the spell to remain after his death. There is an advantage to having the secret die with him, but now, no new members, if any, can find headquarters. That was the basis of my question about the keeper and caster being the same person who is now dead.

As for Godric's Hollow, I think Lily may have lifed the charm and sent a Patronus out for help and that is why she didn't have time to get away with Harry. If not, my second choice would be that the charm lifted upon her death.
well, DD was secret keeper for grimmauld place, and if u saw the place of it in his handwriting, u could find grimmauld place. perhaps they made Peter tell evryone in the Order were the Potters lived.
That would be very dangerous when your lives are at stake, you don't know who to trust, and you don't have guards to protect the piece of paper. The paper format used in OoTP was used for a specific reason and Dumbledore explains this to Harry after the Ministry battle. Dumbledore had to keep his distance from Harry until Voldemort blocked he and Harry's connection.

I love this theory. It works so well with what we know and what we suspect and the physical laws of the magical world.

Of course, if Pettigew's debt is to be repaid, he might do it by telling Harry and Ron and Hermione where the house is so that they could pay their respects properly. Or did the charm only apply to the Potters and not their house? ...But then the theory wouldn't work, because it would mean that no one would be able to find Harry. And we know that this isn't true. So I choose to believe that it was the house that was under the Charm, and not the three Potters.

Peter acquired the debt to Harry in PoA. It's hard to see how anything that happened when Harry was 15 months old would have any bearing on it. I don't think telling them where the house was would do it; I think repaying a life debt is probably more than doing a favor.

I think that for Pettigrew to repay his debt, he will have to save Harry's life, not just reveal a secret location. But I do think the trio will successfully find GH and possibly some answers to what happened that night, I couldn't even begin to guess how JKR will do that, but I have no doubts all our questions will be answered abbout that night after their visit to GH.

My impression is that the secret was that the Potters were hiding at Godric's Hollow. I believe JKR said that until one knows the secret one could look in the windows of the house, but not see the Potters. This would mean the House would be visible to anyone. I could also mean that if Harry was at the house only a few people would be able to see him there. Could it be that Harmione and Ron will not be able to see Harry once they enter the house, or its ruins. What if some DEs show up there and Harry is not seen?

Just some thoughts on the matter.

Mercer
Elf of Old

maybe it was broken when he turned into a rat...that would explain the "missing day", the fact that hagrid couldn't find the house until the charm was lifted (until the incident with sirius and pettigrew)
or i think the fact that the house was in ruins means that the fidelius charm was broken, since we it wouldn't be likely that the charm would work for a non-existent house...

I think that if Lilly needed to ask for help by sending Patronus she had to lift the charm. Because if she didn't lift charm then nobody would be able to come to the house and help them.

I think that if Lilly needed to ask for help by sending Patronus she had to lift the charm. Because if she didn't lift charm then nobody would be able to come to the house and help them.
I like your thoughts, AnnaSofia. That makes the most sense to me.

I suppose more than one person knew that the Potters could be found at Godric's Hollow, and DD was one of them. But even DD would not have been able to see the Potters unless the secret keeper told him. At least Sirius knew about the hideout. But not being the secret keeper, he could not tell anyone of the whereabouts of the Potters.

So I guess Hagrid, DD and other Order members may have known where to find them but simply could not reveal that secret because they weren't the secret keeper.

Also the Fidelius Charm is designed to protect the location of the hideout. This may imply that the charm was broken when the house was destroyed.

maybe it was broken when he turned into a rat...that would explain the "missing day", the fact that hagrid couldn't find the house until the charm was lifted (until the incident with sirius and pettigrew)Hagrid got Harry out right before it collapsed, and Hagrid saw Sirius soon after. We can deduce that Dumbledore saw Hagrid in between that time, as Hagrid already had his order that Harry must go to the Dursleys, but Dumbledore indicates that he did not know that he would do this until he realized what Lily had done for Harry.
or i think the fact that the house was in ruins means that the fidelius charm was broken, since we it wouldn't be likely that the charm would work for a non-existent house...There is no reason to think that the Charm was broken. Never once have we heard anybody say where James and Lily were hiding. We have heard it said that they were in hiding, and we have heard that Hagrid pulled Harry out of their house. Nobody ever has stated the secret, however, which strongly suggest that the secret is still protected.

As for how Hagrid knew, that is easy enough: Pettigrew used Black to relay the secret to Dumbledore and other important members of the Order.

I suppose more than one person knew that the Potters could be found at Godric's Hollow, and DD was one of them. But even DD would not have been able to see the Potters unless the secret keeper told him.That, no doubt, is what happened. However, as we have seen, it is not too difficult for one wizard to relay information for another wizard. Sirius need never have given the secret himself: a note constructed by Pettigrew and delivered by Sirius would have worked.

Also the Fidelius Charm is designed to protect the location of the hideout. This may imply that the charm was broken when the house was destroyed.That is not quite right. The Fidelius Charm is designed to protect a secret: it is not limited to protecting the location of a place, unless that is the secret. Remember, Voldemort could have stared in their windows, but he never would have registered that James and Lily were there, according to Flitwick. (There are other charms, such as making things unplottable, etc., that could hide the place from prying eyes.)

We have no reason to think that this secret is not still protected. On the two occasions where people were talking about 31 October, none of them state plainly where James and Lily were. Where Voldemort fell, etc., might be known, but the exact secret itself seems to be sacrosanct.

Well remember not even Dumbledore knew that Sirius had changed secret keepers. I think Dumbledore cast the FC on Sirius. Then Sirius sensing more immenent danger, performed the charm on Peter. Dumbledore sent Hagrid to fetch baby Harry so he had to have been the charm caster in the first place, and probably more likely hes the one who suggested to the Potters that they hide in Godrics Hollow in the first place. As its been said before it seems that the FC doesnt make you forget what you already know. So, if Dumbledore was the first charm catcher he would be perfectly able to tell Hagrid where to go.

I really think that Hagrid was told by someone where the location of the Potters was. And I don't think Sirius knew or wasn't given the information; where the Potters resided.
Otherwise, wouldn't it gave been more likely that Sirius would take Harry to Dumbeldore, though that might not work out because if i recall correctly Dumbeldore told Hagrid to go and rescue Harry correct? But then again, why couldn't Dumbeldore himself go and get Harry?
This is quite a discussion, I do hope that it is answered in Deathly Hallows...and i doubt JKR would miss something as big as this. She's brilliant...

As for how Hagrid knew, that is easy enough: Pettigrew used Black to relay the secret to Dumbledore and other important members of the Order.

That, no doubt, is what happened. However, as we have seen, it is not too difficult for one wizard to relay information for another wizard. Sirius need never have given the secret himself: a note constructed by Pettigrew and delivered by Sirius would have worked.



I am not so sure the paper method would be safe when your life depends on the secret being kept. Dumbledore used this method because he couldn't have direct contact with Harry for reasons he explains to Harry after the Ministry battle. It would seem very strange for the supposed secret keeper to go around passing out notes instead of personally telling the secret. Wouldn't someone ask, "Why can you not just tell us?" Which, of course, he wouldn't have been able to do.

I have thought about the charm still being in place, but that brings up a lot of questions. I think Dumbledore knew the secret for a similar reason Kreacher knew the location of Headquarters. Dumbledore, I believe, placed them into hiding at Godric's Hollow and therefore knows that is where they are. He cannot disclose this to anyone as Kreacher couldn't tell the Malfoy's were Order Headquarter's was located due to the FC. I think Sirius knew the secret because he was there when Peter was made Secret-Keeper.

Someone asked why Lily would be able to lift the FC? I am assuming she cast the charm and therefore would be the only one able to lift it.

As for how Hagrid knew, that is easy enough: Pettigrew used Black to relay the secret to Dumbledore and other important members of the Order. Only the Secret Keeper can fill anyone in, that's the concept! Sirius could not have spoken the name of the place in front of 'outsiders'. But no one in the order knew Peter was the secret keeper. And considering James, Peter, Sirius and Lupin were such good friends throughout school they should have been able to recognise Peters handwriting.Magically imitating a handwriting does not sound too difficult. But I think Cab id right and the Order would expect him to use Fawkes or send a Patronus-message, as Sirius was in on the plan he may have conjured his Patronus and Peter gave the message to it.
My favourite scenario is that Peter took Polyjuice Potion and told the Order members as Sirius.

There is no reason to think that the Charm was broken. Never once have we heard anybody say where James and Lily were hiding. We have heard it said that they were in hiding, and we have heard that Hagrid pulled Harry out of their house. Nobody ever has stated the secret, however, which strongly suggest that the secret is still protected.McGonagall uses the name “What they’re saying,” she pressed on, “is that last night Voldemort turned up in Godric’s Hollow. He went to find the Potters. The rumour is that Lily and James Potter are – are - that they’re - dead.” , and so does Harry , at the end of HBP when he tells Ron and Hermione he is going there. "I thought I might go back to Godric's Hollow," Harry muttered

Sirius could not have spoken the name of the place in front of 'outsiders'.But he could have passed on notes. ;)

Godric's Hollow is a village, so not exactly the "secret" of where the Potters were (their specific house/address); anyone should be able to speak the name of the village. It isn't like making Grimmauld Place hidden meant no one could say "London" anymore. :D

But he could have passed on notes. ..and have pretendet to have such a bad cold his voice was gone so he could not just tell them :DGodric's Hollow is a village, so not exactly the "secret" of where the Potters were (their specific house/address); anyone should be able to speak the name of the village. It isn't like making Grimmauld Place hidden meant no one could say "London" anymore. I agree, we do not know what the secret was so we can not be absolutly sure it was lifted, but McGonagall, Harry, ´Ron and Hermione can say that the Potters' where at Godric's Hollow and Wimsey said 'Never once have we heard anybody say where James and Lily were hiding.'

Going back to the original question of the thread, there can only be three possible answers:


Hagrid knew the secret
the charm was no longer in place
Harry wasn't included in the charm


If Hagrid knew the secret, here are the possible ways (please add if you know of more):


Peter passed a note
Peter wasn't himself when he told the secret
Hagrid knew where the Potter's lived prior to the charm being performed


If the charm was no longer in place, here are the possible ways (please add if you know of more):


The charm broke when the AK rebounded
The charm broke when Lily died
The charm broke when James died(added by request)
The charm broke when the Potter's were no longer in hiding(added by request)
Lily lifted the charm so help could come
Dumbledore lifted the charm (added by request)

If the charm was no longer in place, here are the possible ways (please add if you know of more):

The charm broke when the AK rebounded
The charm broke when Lily died
Lily lifted the charm so help could come It could be James instead of Lily who(s death) lifted the Charm, Dumbledore could have cast the Charm himself, or he knew who cast it and he asked that person to lift it It's possible that the broken trust, Peter's betrayal lifted the charm. The charm could have seized to work when the secret stopped to exist: The Potters did no longer hide at GH

Is the charm on the house at Godric's Hollow, or the actual plot of land they lived on...because doesn't Hagrid say that the curse "took care of the house" or something like that? If there's no hiding place that needed the charm, it may have just stopped.

Is the charm on the house at Godric's Hollow, or the actual plot of land they lived on...because doesn't Hagrid say that the curse "took care of the house" or something like that? If there's no hiding place that needed the charm, it may have just stopped.

Hagrid said that a powerful, evil curse gave Harry the scar. He also says that the curse took care of his mother, father, and house. I don't think he meant all of this happened on one single casting of the curse, I think he meant that an AK killed his mom, an AK killed his dad, an AK gave him the scar, and AK's damaged the house when they missed James.

It could be James instead of Lily who(s death) lifted the Charm, Dumbledore could have cast the Charm himself, or he knew who cast it and he asked that person to lift it It's possible that the broken trust, Peter's betrayal lifted the charm. The charm could have seized to work when the secret stopped to exist: The Potters did no longer hide at GH

Yes, James could have cast the charm, but I don't believe it would make sense for Dumbledore to have cast the charm since he didn't know Peter was the Keeper.
I don't see Peter's betrayal lifting the charm since the Secret-Keeper is free to disclose the information to anyone they choose.
The fourth suggestion is possible as well.

I don't believe it would make sense for Dumbledore to have cast the charm since he didn't know Peter was the Keeper.
Polyjuice !

I don't think it likely but it's possible, and you listed all possibilities ;)

Polyjuice !

I don't think it likely but it's possible, and you listed all possibilities ;)

I did and I see what you mean. But, I did put in that Hagrid received the secret by Peter who wasn't himself and that would cover Polyjuice.
The problem I have is that I don't think Dumbledore was at the charm casting ceremony and I am assuming the caster and the keeper would need to be present. But I will add that Dumbledore lifted the charm.

It has also been suggested that Harry was never covered by the charm, only his parents were. Not a likely suggestion in my opinion, but a theoretical possibility nonetheless.

It has also been suggested that Harry was never covered by the charm, only his parents were. Not a likely suggestion in my opinion, but a theoretical possibility nonetheless.

Unlikely they wouldn't protect Harry like that, but possible...Added.

Going back to the original question of the thread, there can only be three possible answers:

* Hagrid knew the secret
* the charm was no longer in place
* Harry wasn't included in the charm (added by request)


If Hagrid knew the secret, here are the possible ways (please add if you know of more):

* Peter passed a note
* Peter wasn't himself when he told the secret
* Hagrid knew where the Potter's lived prior to the charm being performed


If the charm was no longer in place, here are the possible ways (please add if you know of more):

* The charm broke when the AK rebounded
* The charm broke when Lily died
* The charm broke when James died(added by request)
* The charm broke when the Potter's were no longer in hiding(added by request)
* Lily lifted the charm so help could come
* Dumbledore lifted the charm (added by request)

We should do a poll...:p

My vote goes to: the charm broke when James died.

The secret was no longer true (not going into detail about the wording, but still), so it wasn't secret anymore either. There may have been other charms on the house before the FC, protecting it from muggles.

I think that the only explanation is that Dumbledore was at Godrics Hollow that night, though not necessarily at the time of Voldemort's AK.

We need remember that in HBP Dumbledore says to Slughorn that the only missing item from his charade was the Dark Mark. This is indicative that the Dark Mark was used at all plces of attack by the Death Eaters. Therefore we can assume that at Godrics Hollow was no exception.

As such Dumbledore was able to send Hagrid to the Potters hideout by virtue of the Dark Mark.

As such Dumbledore was able to send Hagrid to the Potters hideout by virtue of the Dark Mark.I can't see how the Dark Mark would make the FC stop working. And if Voldemort was alone that night, he would not have had a chance to set up the mark after he killed and it would be foolish to do it before , he would give his position away; If there was an assistant with him I don't think they would put up the Dark Mark either because it hadn't been sucessful and they would make away to hide as quick as possible.


We should do a poll...Yes, please! I'd really like to know what people on the forum think !

Ok, here it is again...
Going back to the original question of the thread, there can only be three possible answers:

* Hagrid knew the secret
* the charm was no longer in place
* Harry wasn't included in the charm (added by request)


If Hagrid knew the secret, here are the possible ways (please add if you know of more):

* Peter passed a note
* Peter wasn't himself when he told the secret
* Hagrid knew where the Potter's lived prior to the charm being performed


If the charm was no longer in place, here are the possible ways (please add if you know of more):

* The charm broke when the AK rebounded
* The charm broke when Lily died
* The charm broke when James died(added by request)
* The charm broke when the Potter's were no longer in hiding(added by request)
* Lily lifted the charm so help could come
* Dumbledore lifted the charm (added by request)

Would anyone else like to add something?
Would anyone like to list their favorite reason(s)?

Mine are:
The charm was no longer in place because Lily lifted it for help to come.
or
The charm was no longer in place because it lifted upon Lily's death.

I can't see how the Dark Mark would make the FC stop working. And if Voldemort was alone that night, he would not have had a chance to set up the mark after he killed and it would be foolish to do it before , he would give his position away; If there was an assistant with him I don't think they would put up the Dark Mark either because it hadn't been sucessful and they would make away to hide as quick as possible.


Yes, please! I'd really like to know what people on the forum think !

I never said that the FC stopped working. The mere fact of the Dark Mark above some place would be enough to call in the Ministry. That together with the knowledge that Voldemort was looking for one or both kids the Order would know.

Ok, here it is again...


Would anyone else like to add something?
Would anyone like to list their favorite reason(s)?

Mine are:
The charm was no longer in place because Lily lifted it for help to come.
or
The charm was no longer in place because it lifted upon Lily's death.

How about:

The charm broke when the secret was no longer true (ie the Potters were no longer hiding from Voldemort after Harry turned him into Vapourmort)?

If the charm was no longer in place, here are the possible ways (please add if you know of more):

* The charm broke when the AK rebounded
* The charm broke when Lily died
* The charm broke when James died(added by request)
* The charm broke when the Potter's were no longer in hiding(added by request)
* Lily lifted the charm so help could come
* Dumbledore lifted the charm (added by request)


Or if that night with LV was Peter P. he could lifted the charm himself. Can be that possible or must be the caster with him?

Dumbledore wasn't the caster. He couldn't have been or he would have known that Sirius wasn't the secret keeper.My guess is that the secret was that Lily, James, and Harry Potter live at this adress, Godrics Hollow. Once that was no longer true, the charm was lifted. So maybe when the house was detroyed it was lifted because they no longer lived their, because it didn't exist.

The charm was no longer in place because Lily lifted it for help to come. or The charm was no longer in place because it lifted upon Lily's death.
Those are the two most likely.

So maybe when the house was detroyed it was lifted because they no longer lived their, because it didn't exist.

hmm, or maybe if the caster dies then the charm is lifted as there is no longer anyone to protect.

I do wonder if there are any 'clauses' you can put into a complex charm, especially as Lily was supposedly such a talented witch, so that there could be a back-up plan. I'm sure that the Potters would have tried everything possible to protect Harry, and therefore I would have thought that they would have ensured someone could rescue Harry if they both died.

I did wonder whether Dumbledore, being the strongest wizard we know (possible excluding Voldemort), could somehow break the charm... but that doesn't really make sense as if Dumbledore or any other wizard can break the charm then Lord Voldemort would be able to.

Lily could have easily lifted the charm as she ran for Harry. And it is entirely possible that her death ended the charm.

But surely would Lily not have been putting all her efforts into trying to save bother her and Harry rather than allowing for a rescue mission, which would not be able to arrive for some time? (I agree that it is very possible, but there are problems with the theory)

I don't envision it taking a lot of effort to end the spell. There was probably just a counter-spell that could be said while she was running to get Harry. I don't think that she needed to slow down at all. She could do it on the run as she dashed for Harry.

But surely would Lily not have been putting all her efforts into trying to save bother her and Harry rather than allowing for a rescue mission, which would not be able to arrive for some time? (I agree that it is very possible, but there are problems with the theory)

Maybe her line of thinking was that if by sending out a Patronus and lifting the charm someone could arrive in time to save Harry if she stalled Voldemort by standing in front of Harry as long as she could.

Maybe her line of thinking was that if by sending out a Patronus and lifting the charm someone could arrive in time to save Harry if she stalled Voldemort by standing in front of Harry as long as she could.
That's exactly how I see it. Furthermore, it really wouldn't have slowed her down to do them. We've seen examples of spells being thrown on the fly at the end of OotP and HBP.

We have no hint Lily sent a patronus. But if she knew what she was doing when she died for Harry, she would also know that afterwards people would have to rescue her baby. If she was able to lift the charm and if she knew Harry was the only one to survive she had to lift the charm or Harry could have starved in the house.

That's exactly how I see it. Furthermore, it really wouldn't have slowed her down to do them. We've seen examples of spells being thrown on the fly at the end of OotP and HBP.
Yes we have, but we know that the FC is a very complex spell, and it would surprise me if the "counterspell" was something very simple. I'm not suggesting that Lily couldn't have lifted the charm if she was the caster, but I think it takes a little more than just throwing out a few words in the course of a couple of seconds.

An entirely different question: those of you who think that Lily's death lifted the charm - why is that? I find the option that James' death lifted the charm more likely, as he died first, and as his death presumably rendered the secret false. When Lily dies, James was dead already. Why would her death be more important than his? Because she may have been the caster?
Just curious...

But surely wasn't the secret the location of the house, not the location of the Potters. Therefore why would the death have destroyed the charm, as there was still a plot of land for the charm to hide.

If charms all end when the caster dies, there would be absolute chaos, as all magical projects made by charms would suddenly disintergrate.

An entirely different question: those of you who think that Lily's death lifted the charm - why is that? I find the option that James' death lifted the charm more likely, as he died first, and as his death presumably rendered the secret false. When Lily dies, James was dead already. Why would her death be more important than his? Because she may have been the caster?
Just curious...

Yes, it is because she may have been the caster. We really don't know if the spell vanishes upon the death of the caster or not, but it's a likely possibility seeing that some spells do.

What makes me think she stopped to send a Patronus and lift the charm is that it seems that she didn't have much time to "take Harry and run;" Voldemort was already upon her.

The Patronus seems to be the secret, quick way for Order members to communicate.

But surely wasn't the secret the location of the house, not the location of the Potters. Therefore why would the death have destroyed the charm, as there was still a plot of land for the charm to hide. Nothing is sure, we don't know what the FC protected.

If charms all end when the caster dies, there would be absolute chaos, as all magical projects made by charms would suddenly disintergrate.We deffinitly know that charms can end when the caster dies, we don't know if all charms end, but I don't think so. otherwise Snape would just have had to kill Bella to evade the Unbreakable Vow


The Patronus seems to be the secret, quick way for Order members to communicate.But Harry did not remember it , had Lily cast a patronus he should have seen the bright light
Yet we agree on the fact that Lily might have lifted the FC to enable helpers to find them.

Nothing is sure, we don't know what the FC protected.

hmmm.... I thought it said somewhere, perhaps I was wrong. I think I assumed that as Grimauld Place was definatly a place that was kept hidden I assumed Godric's Hollow was the same. The address is the most likely explanation, as it seems the Fidelius charm has to be a piece of information, and it can't simply hide the location of the Potters wherever they are, as they wouldn't have had to gone into hiding.

I was wondering... if the Fidelius Charm was still in effect, wouldn't it be rather difficult for people to interact with Harry, who would, presumably, still be protected under the charm?

Also, I personally don't think that the Fidelius Charm is one of those charms that nullifies when the caster passes on. I may be wrong, but I thought Sirius was the caster of the Fidelius Charm on 12 Grimmauld Place, and I further thought that the charm was still in place after he died.

hmmm.... I thought it said somewhere, perhaps I was wrong. I think I assumed that as Grimauld Place was definatly a place that was kept hidden I assumed Godric's Hollow was the same. The address is the most likely explanation, as it seems the Fidelius charm has to be a piece of information, and it can't simply hide the location of the Potters wherever they are, as they wouldn't have had to gone into hiding. In case of Grimmauld Place it seems to be the house, that makes sense as the inhabitants come and go, otherwise Dumbledore would have to extend the protection to each new Order member. And we don't know how much of the protection of Grimmauld Place was old and done by Orion Black. Sirius had said that his father put 'every protection known to wizard kind ' on the house.
It's different for GH, here it was only the Potter family that needed protection, and Flitwick said 'An immensely complex spell' Prof. Flitwick said squeakily, 'involving the magical concealment of a secret in a single living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person or Secret Keeper and is henceforth impossible to find, unless of course the Secret Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them. Not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting-room window.' If all houses under the FC are invisible or unfindable, there would be no window to put ones nose to.

I assume that at Grimauld Place the caster and the SK was DD or the caster was Sirius and the SK was DD. But now that they are both dead the charm still exists, doesn't? So that means that if the caster or the SK dies the charm still exists and the people who know the secret can find the place or house.

I assume that at Grimauld Place the caster and the SK was DD or the caster was Sirius and the SK was DD. But now that they are both dead the charm still exists, doesn't? So that means that if the caster or the SK dies the charm still exists and the people who know the secret can find the place or house.

I had asked a question to this effect before. I think Dumbledore was both the caster and the secret keeper. But at the end of HBP, we don't really know what became or what will become of the Order.

I assume that at Grimauld Place the caster and the SK was DD or the caster was Sirius and the SK was DD. But now that they are both dead the charm still exists, doesn't? So that means that if the caster or the SK dies the charm still exists and the people who know the secret can find the place or house.As cab said , we don't know who cast the FC and we don't know if Grimmauld Place is still protected.
If Dumbledore was the caster and if the caster is the only one who can lift the charm and if it does not lift upon his death, the house would be under it for ever. Only the Members (+ Harry, Hermione and the Weasleys) Dumbledore has introduced would be able to find it, no new Members could ever be invited. When the last of the 'old crowd' dies the house would be lost in oblivion, or something. I don't think that likely.

There's something bothering me a bit...I just thought of it so bare with me.
Harry has never before asked about where or suggested visiting his parent's graves or going to Gordic's Hollows. I would of asked as soon as I found out that they weren't killed in a car accident.
And I don't think he'd be too upset or anything...he's had 6 years of barely any info but still hearing about his parents and Gordic's Hollow. Why now...well I suppose because it's book seven and it would make sense for him to go...but why not earlier?

Flitwick said 'An immensely complex spell' Prof. Flitwick said squeakily, 'involving the magical concealment of a secret in a single living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person or Secret Keeper and is henceforth impossible to find, unless of course the Secret Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them. Not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting-room window.' If all houses under the FC are invisible or unfindable, there would be no window to put ones nose to.This is a smart quote. Remember that Grimmauld Place also was protected by many other charms that Sirius' father invoked to keep it secret from Muggles: this almost certainly contributed to what Harry saw.
I had asked a question to this effect before. I think Dumbledore was both the caster and the secret keeper. But at the end of HBP, we don't really know what became or what will become of the Order.We know that the caster cannot be the keeper. For one thing, the name indicates that one is putting some trust in something: and if another person is not involved, then there is no trust.

Second, if one could keep one's own secrets, then Voldemort would have used the spell to hide his Horcruxes. (The fact that he will not even use a Death Eater to keep the secret and then kill that person indicates just how incapable of trusting anybody he is: but that really is for another thread.) If it were possible, then Rowling will have a Knightesque "idiot plot" on her hand. Still, given how important the ability to choose to trust other people is to the stories, it is only appropriate that the antagonists complete inability to do so should contribute to his undoing.
As cab said , we don't know who cast the FC and we don't know if Grimmauld Place is still protected.We know from Rowling that the secret goes with the secret keeper. We know that Dumbledore was the Secret Keeper. We can deduce that Dumbledore did not cast the spell, as Voldemort has not used it to guard his most precious secrets. As Rowling has not said that the death of the caster released the charm, we should assume that the secret is still safe even if McGonagal, Flitwick or whomever cast the charm dies. (Indeed, it is quite possible that Black did!)

Of course, the fact that the secret is now permanent does not obliterate Grimmauld Place from people's minds: Dumbledore was worried that Bellatrix would turn up at the doorstep having inherited the house. It stands to reason that she never would have been able to understand that the Order was headquartered there, but she certainly would have been inconvenient!
When the last of the 'old crowd' dies the house would be lost in oblivion, or something. I don't think that likely.I agree. It is not the house itself that will be lost, only the secret that "The Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix is at #12 Grimmauld Place." Should Harry survive and have kids there, for example, he never could tell them what that house had been, at least directly.

We know that the caster cannot be the keeper. For one thing, the name indicates that one is putting some trust in something: and if another person is not involved, then there is no trust.

Second, if one could keep one's own secrets, then Voldemort would have used the spell to hide his Horcruxes. (The fact that he will not even use a Death Eater to keep the secret and then kill that person indicates just how incapable of trusting anybody he is: but that really is for another thread.) If it were possible, then Rowling will have a Knightesque "idiot plot" on her hand. Still, given how important the ability to choose to trust other people is to the stories, it is only appropriate that the antagonists complete inability to do so should contribute to his undoing.
We know from Rowling that the secret goes with the secret keeper. We know that Dumbledore was the Secret Keeper. We can deduce that Dumbledore did not cast the spell, as Voldemort has not used it to guard his most precious secrets. As Rowling has not said that the death of the caster released the charm, we should assume that the secret is still safe even if McGonagal, Flitwick or whomever cast the charm dies. (Indeed, it is quite possible that Black did!)



It's really all so confusing. One could argue that the caster cannot be the keeper because Voldemort didn't use the spell to hide his Horcruxes. But then again, he could have used someone as the secret keeper and then killed them so his Horcruxes could never be found. Wouldn't that have been the best way to hide his soul pieces? Therefore, I have concluded that he either didn't want his Horcruxes hidden this way or Voldemort is not capable of casting such a complex charm? Perhaps this is what Voldemort wanted Lily for?
Also, I've always wondered why Lily didn't cast the charm and make James the secret keeper? Perhaps the subject of the secret cannot be the keeper for some reason or the charm requires 3 people.

Perhaps then the answer is that Lily, upon hearing the warning and instructions, stopped to send a Patronus an lifted the charm so help could arrive. This left her with only seconds to get to Harry before Voldemort was blasting the door open.

It's really all so confusing.
Hear, hear!
Also, I've always wondered why Lily didn't cast the charm and make James the secret keeper? Perhaps the subject of the secret cannot be the keeper for some reason or the charm requires 3 people.
Well, if the secret was the location of James and Lily (and Harry) and James was the SK, then how would he be able to tell anyone if they couldn't find him?...:yuhup:
Yeah, I know, perhaps he was only hidden when he was at GH, so he could leave his house and then tell people... But that wouln't make any sense. Then Voldemort or some DE might spot him. Still, perhaps those who knew the secret already knew it after the spell was cast as well. But James wouldn't be able to tell any more people unless he left the house. Or sent them a note, of course.

I agree with Wimsey that the caster and the keeper probably can't be the same person. So my guess is that Lily or Sirius cast the spell, but I still think the FC ended when James died, making the secret untrue. Not much canon to support it, though...

In another two months and one week we'll finally know what really happened at GH!

Well, if the secret was the location of James and Lily (and Harry) and James was the SK, then how would he be able to tell anyone if they couldn't find him?...:yuhup:
Well if they really wanted to be safe, then no one knowing would be the way to go. :lol: I think he could be seen outside of his hiding place so that it wouldn't be the point. But perhaps in a round-about way, your answer is correct in that if James was part of the secret, he couldn't be the keeper of the secret. I don't know...


In another two months and one week we'll finally know what really happened at GH! Hopefully!!! This could be a question JKR might have to answer after the book has been released. It just seems that the logical reason Harry was able to be rescued is that the charm was no longer working. It's a lot easier than trying to explain how Hagrid knew the secret. How the charm was no longer working is a bigger issue since there are several ways as was posted earlier. If polled, I'd have to say Lily lifted the charm after she sent a Patronus out for help so help could come. The other option is for me is the charm lifted upon Lily (the caster's) death. But...we don't even know if that is possible. Funny that we don't know more about the FC. Makes me suspicious. Everything makes me suspicious.:scared:

In another two months and one week we'll finally know what really happened at GH!Actually, it is quite probable that we will not learn what "really" happened there. It is not one of the big questions within the series, after all, even if it one that fans have. Harry himself never has wondered this, nor has anybody else. At this point, Rowling is obliged to answer only those questions that arise within the series itself: the guns that she has put on the wall but that have not yet been fired still need shooting.

However, this is not a gun on the wall. Because Chekov's Rule works backwards as well as forwards, it would probably make the book a worse read for most of the readers if she does (did) include these details unless she somehow makes it pertinent to the Horcrux hunt. Even then, there should have been some prior indication that this would be the case.

It simply is tough for me to imagine how the exact details of what happened at James & Lily's house, or what happened to the Fidelius Charm, or even what the exact secret was that Pettigrew is keeping will come up in Hallows.
It just seems that the logical reason Harry was able to be rescued is that the charm was no longer working. It's a lot easier than trying to explain how Hagrid knew the secret.Explaining how Hagrid knew the secret is easy: Pettigrew told him in a way that made Hagrid think that it was Black or somebody else who told Hagrid. Harry was told where the headquarters of the Order is without having any idea who told him, after all.

So, "if wizards can disguise the informant, then a secret keeper can inform secretly" is our premise. It does not provide a deduction, but it does make Hagrid knowing a likely and probable explanation.
If polled, I'd have to say Lily lifted the charm after she sent a Patronus out for help so help could come. The other option is for me is the charm lifted upon Lily (the caster's) death.I can see plenty of other options, including the fact that insofar as we can see, the secret still is kept: nobody ever directly says where James and Lily were hiding.
Funny that we don't know more about the FC. Makes me suspicious. Everything makes me suspicious.:scared:It is not, really. As so often happens, the fans of the stories raise more questions than the stories themselves raise. The FC has been a non-issue since Prisoner. There are no questions about it in the stories, so there has been no need for answers.

This is sort of like "what did James and Lily do for jobs?" or "when did the dwarves move back into Moria?" Fans want the answer because we are interested in more than the story. However, the authors are not obliged to answer questions that they do not raise, and they usually are wiser to not do so!

Explaining how Hagrid knew the secret is easy: Pettigrew told him in a way that made Hagrid think that it was Black or somebody else who told Hagrid. Harry was told where the headquarters of the Order is without having any idea who told him, after all. He couldn't have been disguised as Black since Hagrid didn't know he was the secret keeper and since Hagrid didn't say anything about anyone else being the secret keeper, then it is more likely that Hagrid wasn't informed of the secret in this manner. I don't buy a note either. The note in OoTP was used for a specific reason. Notes in the case of Godric's Hollow would be too dangerous. The charm still being in place presents a few problems for me as well since I believe quite a few people passed by their hiding place after they died. But anyway...As I did say..."if polled" my answer would be that it was lifted. I don't see any problems with that.

Actually, it is quite probable that we will not learn what "really" happened there.
Well, we may not know the answer to the question asked in this particular thread, but I do believe we will know a lot more than we do now. It has been said that JKR didn't want James to be shown in the first film (I'm sorry to be referring to a rumour, but I've seen it several times), and there's got to be a reason for that. In addition, there is the NAQ about the invisibility cloak, and I believe that has something to do with GH. So I guess we will know more, but probably not all we'd like to know...

I wonder if the question of this thread is important?:hmm:

It has been said that JKR didn't want James to be shown in the first film (I'm sorry to be referring to a rumour, but I've seen it several times), and there's got to be a reason for that.No doubt it is the same reason why, in Half-Blood Prince alone, Rowling said that someone would switch houses, Harry would learn extremely powerful magic, and that there would be a chapter about Lupin. All of these things were cited a lot 2 years ago, but Rowling never said any of them. There is no reason to think that she made the comment about James in the film, either.

That being said, even if Rowling had made the comment, then it would provide zero evidence for the Charm being broken somehow. The evidence for that would be examples of people plainly stating the secret. On the contrary, people never do that.
In addition, there is the NAQ about the invisibility cloak, and I believe that has something to do with GH. The cloak might be involved with that night: but in no way does it follow that this means that it had something to do with the Fidelius Charm! Again, Rowling has provided precendent here: Dumbledore uses invisibility cloaks to hide guards.

So, let's adopt the tactics that Dumbledore has used before: Some Order members are informed of a secret without letting them know who told them;
Order members (in on a secret, magically or otherwise) stand guard using an invisibility cloak.Voíla! History repeats itself!
I wonder if the question of this thread is important?:hmm:My bet is: "no." Rowling already has provided us with multiple simple and easy explanations. Harry never has wondered about it, nor have Hermione or Ron. This is not like "who is R.A.B." or "what is the link between Harry and Voldemort?" or "why did Dumbledore trust Snape?" All of those arise within the series itself: Harry himself has actively asked these questions himself. This one never arises on its own.

That being said, even if Rowling had made the comment, then it would provide zero evidence for the Charm being broken somehow. The evidence for that would be examples of people plainly stating the secret. On the contrary, people never do that.

The cloak might be involved with that night: but in no way does it follow that this means that it had something to do with the Fidelius Charm! Again, Rowling has provided precendent here: Dumbledore uses invisibility cloaks to hide guards.
You misunderstood me - what I meant was that the rumour - which we may disregard, so never mind - and the cloak question (which is undoubtedly important) suggests that what happened at GH in general will be a topic in DH. I didn't mean that those two things suggested that the charm question was important.
So, let's adopt the tactics that Dumbledore has used before: Some Order members are informed of a secret without letting them know who told them;
Order members (in on a secret, magically or otherwise) stand guard using an invisibility cloak.Voíla! History repeats itself!
Possibly. I like the concept of "back-shadowing", which this would be.
My bet is: "no." Rowling already has provided us with multiple simple and easy explanations. Harry never has wondered about it, nor have Hermione or Ron. This is not like "who is R.A.B." or "what is the link between Harry and Voldemort?" or "why did Dumbledore trust Snape?" All of those arise within the series itself: Harry himself has actively asked these questions himself. This one never arises on its own.
True. Perhaps we'll know the answer in DH, perhaps we won't. But even if we will know, that doesn't mean the answer is important.

But, hey, it's fun discussing it nonetheless! :D

You misunderstood me - what I meant was that the rumour - which we may disregard, so never mind - and the cloak question (which is undoubtedly important) suggests that what happened at GH in general will be a topic in DH. I didn't mean that those two things suggested that the charm question was important. Ah, OK. Well, Godric's Hollow had better provide something important, if Harry is going back there: otherwise, it will be nothing more than gratuitous narrative!

That being said, I have almost no idea what this might be. When we did the 101 Most(?) Important Questions survey (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=102356), we had a hard time coming up with possible answers for what Harry would find at Godric's Hollow. It cannot be anything too obvious: otherwise, Dumbledore should have discovered it already.
Possibly. I like the concept of "back-shadowing", which this would be.heh, sort of! It really is not quite the same as foreshadowing: that requires some degree of irony. For example, Harry hoping that Snape's tenure as DADA professor ends in another death foreshadows Snape murdering Dumbledore: just as Harry hopes, Snape's tenure ends in a death!

In this case, it is closer to character development. Rowling shows us how Dumbledore works. Dumbledore lauds simple plans in GoF, and we see that he, himself, uses them throughout the series.
True. Perhaps we'll know the answer in DH, perhaps we won't. But even if we will know, that doesn't mean the answer is important.True. However, Rowling clearly was stung by the reviews of Order of the Phoenix, which criticized just this sort of thing. Rowling stuck much more to details relevant to plot, theme and story in Prince: I would expect that she will do the same in Hallows.
But, hey, it's fun discussing it nonetheless! :DAgain, true! Tolkien fans had fun asking questions like this for years, too. We thought that the Silmarillion would have all of the answers. It didn't! I am sure that Rowling will be fielding questions until she dies, just as Tolkien did.

I think that the simpelist solutiion is the most likely.

It was possible to rescue Harry from Godrics Hollow, the implication here is that Harry was visible or findable, as he was never part of the FC to begin with. If I remember correctly canon has it that the Potters went into hiding, not stating which ones. Also we know from canon that Hogwarts was the safest place. Harry was the target of Voldemort's visit to Goddric's Hollow. Yet we have James and Lily who are hiding. Could there have been two FC?

Just my tuppence worth, comments please...!

I think that the simpelist solutiion is the most likely.

It was possible to rescue Harry from Godrics Hollow, the implication here is that Harry was visible or findable, as he was never part of the FC to begin with. If I remember correctly canon has it that the Potters went into hiding, not stating which ones. Also we know from canon that Hogwarts was the safest place. Harry was the target of Voldemort's visit to Goddric's Hollow. Yet we have James and Lily who are hiding. Could there have been two FC?

Just my tuppence worth, comments please...!

In any case, wouldn't "the Potters" include all Potters, unless the charm was specific to James and Lily Potter. But why leave a baby unprotected even if you don't know he is the main target? I am all for the simple answer, but to me, that would be Lily lifting the charm after Voldemort arrived. There would be no need to have it and without it help couldn't come. However, we don't know if that is even possible, but if so, it only makes sense for the caster to be able to do it. I wonder if the charm can be lifted by the caster. Since we don't really know, I am not against other theories, I just would choose this one if asked.

He couldn't have been disguised as Black since Hagrid didn't know he was the secret keeper and since Hagrid didn't say anything about anyone else being the secret keeper, then it is more likely that Hagrid wasn't informed of the secret in this manner. I don't buy a note either. The note in OoTP was used for a specific reason. Notes in the case of Godric's Hollow would be too dangerous. The charm still being in place presents a few problems for me as well since I believe quite a few people passed by their hiding place after they died. But anyway...As I did say..."if polled" my answer would be that it was lifted. I don't see any problems with that.

I'm not following how Peter could not have been disguised as Sirius? If someone looking like Sirius tells Hagrid where the Potters are hiding, then Hagrid will think that Sirius is the SK, as we all know he did. The fact that this didn't "click" immediately with Hagrid when he went to fetch baby Harry, and saw Sirius there, is believable to me. He's a great guy, smart in many ways, but I can see him being overwhelmed with the tragedy at the time, and not quite realizing right away that "Sirius" must have told LV where the Potters were.

And I think that in both the cases of Grimmauld Place, and Godric's Hollow, a note would be being used for a specific, and important, reason. Remember, Sirius, James, Lily, and Peter all thought that the secret last-minute switch of SK was an important twist to protecting the Potters from LV. I believe it's likely they would have thought that the less people that knew the true SK, the better. But for "Sirius" to refuse to tell certain people (DD, Lupin, Hagrid) the secret may have raised eyebrows and suspicions, which I do not believe they would want. Also, I believe it's likely they had many other reasons for wanting and needing DD, at least, and maybe Hagrid as well, to know where they are.

I've always been a proponent of the "Peter wrote a note, faking Sirius's handwriting, to DD, Hagrid (and maybe others) saying where the Potters are hiding" but now, I have to say, the "Peter took polyjuice to look like Sirius, when telling DD, Hagrid where the Potters are hiding" has equal probability for me.

I also believe that even if the answer to this question is not important to the overall plot, it is important for JKR to clear it up with both herself and with the readers. It could be that when she originally wrote PS, she had not yet conceived of the idea of the Fidelus charm. Once she did, she realized she she would have to explain how anyone knew a) that the Potters had been attacked by LV and b) where they were, so that someone could go and find Harry alive. Even if the readers, for some unfathomable reason, never thought to ask these questions, I think JKR would want an answer for herself and her own integrity as a writer. :)

The problem is when Hagrid was telling his tale in PoA, The Maurauder's Map, he says: "I didn' know he'd bin Lily an' James's Secret-Keeper." This means that he had no idea Sirius was the Secret-Keeper, not that he didn't remember with everything going on. Since at this point, mid PoA, he does believe that Sirius was the Secret-Keeper; no one else could have posed as the Secret-Keeper. Also, the note in OoTP was only used because Dumbledore didn't want eye contact with Harry due to Voldemort's window. Very dangerous even though it was guarded by several Order members. I feel a note in the case of Godric's Hollow would be far too dangerous to risk.