Giants: Group Character Analysis

Lots of thanks to kingwidgit for collecting information and to guad for suggesting questions!

Background information on giants:

We know that there used to be different tribes in England and while Giants are not as intelligent as wizards some of them spoke English. Most giants communicate in their own language. Full-grown giants can reach 20 feet in height, though there are giants like Golgomath who are about 25 feet tall. Giants are not meant to live together but when they do they have a leader they call a Gurg. The Gurg is usually the biggest of the all the giants and sits in one place, waiting for the other giants to serve him by bringing him and his wife (if he has one) food. A change of power comes about by violent overthrow. Giants are known to be violent, slow-witted and vicious. Wizards consider them to be crude barbarians. Like Trolls, giants like to kill, apparently for the fun of it.

Giant skin is tough and spells apparently bounce off them, much as we've seen them bounce off Hagrid, which is attributed to his giant blood. Giants can be killed by magical means but strong magic is necessary to even hurt a giant.

The first war:
There was a time when giants were a force to be reckoned with in the wizarding world - there were once at least a hundred different tribes spread out around the globe. Then, in the 1970s, the giants allied themselves with Voldemort and were responsible for many of the war's worst incidents of killing and torture, especially of Muggles. Many giants were killed by Aurors and the rest fled into hiding for the next fifteen years.

There are supposed to be only about 80 giants left wordwide.

The second war:
After being hunted to near extinction during the last war, the remaining giants now live in an area far away from everyone, a location hard to get to. Hagrid and Madam Maxime set out to gain these giants' trust. Unfortunately, two Death Eaters were there, too, and apparently the last of the giants have again joined Voldemort's forces.

Giants we know:

Fridwulfa: is the mother of Grawp and Hagrid and abandoned her family circa 1931. According to Hagrid in OotP, she died "years and years ago".

Grawp: is Hagrid's little brother and only a runt of a giant with his 16 feet. He was bullied by the other giants because of his size but didn't want to accompany Hagrid. He acquired a fixation for Hermione, who he calls "Hermy". Hagrid tries to civilise him in OotP. Grawp reappears at Dumbledore's funeral.

Golgomath: killed Karkus by ripping his head off, and took the goblin made battle helm to become Gurg of the giants. He prefers an allegiance with the Death Eaters.

Karkus: former Gurg of the giants, who seemed amenable to the presents from Dumbledore. He was killed by Golgomath only two days after the negotiations began. His death put and end to Hagrid's and Madam Maxime's hopes to win the giants for Dumbledore's side.

Known half-giants:

Rubeus Hagrid: Keeper of the Keys and Grounds of Hogwarts, also Gameskeeper and Professor of Care of Magical Creatures. Uncharacteristically mild-mannered considering his giant blood.

Madame Olympe Maxime: Headmistress of Beauxbatons Academy in France

Things to be discussed:

Dumbledore considered the giants to be of vital importance. What did he see in them? Did he believe in a peaceful coexistence?
Was Karkus' overthrow planned or motivated by the Death Eaters? Did they influence/control Golgomath?
Giants distrust wizards. Will they ever be able to regain a certain trust in humans and to develop friendly relations to the wizarding society?
According to Hagrid, giants do not like to socialise with other giants. Why do they live in groups now? Are they still being hunted?
Did all giants join Voldemort during the first war? If not, do you think innocent giants were killed by wizards who didn't bother to check?
Giants and humans are not that different. We see that they can fall in love and have children together (Hagrid and Olympe being the results). How do you think the giants reacted to these kind of interracial marriages? What did the wizards and witches think?
What has Voldemort offered the Giants in return for their loyalty? What could be interesting enough for Golgomath and his giants to join the DE without even considering joining the other side?
If Karkus had joined the Order would the other Giants have followed him?
Is there still a chance that some Giants help the Order, even against the will of their Gurg Golgomath and in spite of the risk of being killed?

Dumbledore considered the giants to be of vital importance. What did he see in them? Did he believe in a peaceful coexistence?

The main reason why Dumbledore wanted to talk with the giants and approached them via Hagrid, appears to me because he wanted to avoid that they would make a pact with Voldemort. Their size and strength would give Voldemort a big advantage. Dumbledore must have realized that the Ministry wouldn't accept their presence in the United Kingdom. He must also have known that giants have a dreadful temper in general. That maybe only one or two of them would ever be able to live in peace with human beings. So he might have been a little bit too optimistic.


Was Karkus' overthrow planned or motivated by the Death Eaters? Did they influence/control Golgomath?

I don't know. They might have talked to Golgomath before he killed Karkus. Suggested that if he wanted to have those nice presents he should act as soon as possible. Maybe they even offered Voldemort's support before it happened.

Giants distrust wizards. Will they ever be able to regain a certain trust in humans and to develop friendly relations to the wizarding society?

Well I don't think giants are entirely friendly to humans, except for Grawp now obviously, so it should come from both sides. Humans should not be prejudiced, but giants shouldn't threaten to kill humans either. So if both sides would be willing to co-exist and respect each others living space it could work.

According to Hagrid, giants do not like to socialise with other giants. Why do they live in groups now? Are they still being hunted?

They live together because their living space has dramatically declined in size and they need each other to keep the giant population alive. Living apart is just not an option anymore. Besides there is safety in numbers.

I can imagine that the various Ministries have some people to watch out for giants, there might even be bounty hunters.

Did all giants join Voldemort during the first war? If not, do you think innocent giants were killed by wizards who didn't bother to check?

I am sure there were enough giants, that thought that Voldemort's quest was none of their business and rather lived in peace somewhere secluded. I guess some innocents have been killed, the Ministry of Magic and the Auror office (certainly under Scrimgeour) wasn't precisely subtle.

Giants and humans are not that different. We see that they can fall in love and have children together (Hagrid and Olympe being the results). How do you think the giants reacted to these kind of interracial marriages? What did the wizards and witches think?

Well I don't think if pure blood policies live among the giants, but I am sure some wouldn't like it. The distrust between giants and humans must be centuries old. Some giants and wizards must have been equally disgusted.

What has Voldemort offered the Giants in return for their loyalty? What could be interesting enough for Golgomath and his giants to join the DE without even considering joining the other side?

Freedom to go where ever they want, do what ever they want, kill who ever they want? No more regulations, no more hiding. There is no chance whatsoever that the current Ministry of Magic would consider to give the giants absolute freedom.

If Karkus had joined the Order would the other Giants have followed him?

Golgomath and gang wouldn't. They have nasty tempers and would consider joining the Order as being in the power of wizards. Others, more moderate giants might have followed Karkus.

Is there still a chance that some Giants help the Order, even against the will of their Gurg Golgomath and in spite of the risk of being killed?

Golgomath might have killed the willing giants after Hagrid left. But if they really remember Dumbledore's words and consider it worth a try I think they would come. Their chance of survival would probably be bigger away from those nasty giants anyway.

Dumbledore considered the giants to be of vital importance. What did he see in them? Did he believe in a peaceful coexistence?

Dumbledore seems to be more trusting of most magical creatures than other wizards. I believe that in Dumbledore's opinion, as long as someone knows the difference between right and wrong, there is still hope. Not all giants are like Golomath. They may be bellicose, but they are capable of feeling.


Was Karkus' overthrow planned or motivated by the Death Eaters? Did they influence/control Golgomath?

I've had this impression too. I believe so, though we have no canon on it. It's just an interesting coincidence that the overthrow took place at that time and that the new leader was anti-Dumbledore.


Giants distrust wizards. Will they ever be able to regain a certain trust in humans and to develop friendly relations to the wizarding society?

It'll take cooperation and patience from wizards. Grawp is learning slowly but surely due to Hagrid's hard work. So it's definitely possible that more could learn to function with wizard (though not for many many years, and they'd have to remain hidden anyway because of their size)


Did all giants join Voldemort during the first war? If not, do you think innocent giants were killed by wizards who didn't bother to check?

Oh, of course. Aurors were allowed to use Unforgivables. Naturally, there could be innocent civilian casualties, and giants are no exception. Assuming that at this time the giants weren't hiding from wizards, then one could simply be found in any old cave. And an Auror could easily get the wrong information, or raid the wrong cave.


Giants and humans are not that different. We see that they can fall in love and have children together (Hagrid and Olympe being the results). How do you think the giants reacted to these kind of interracial marriages? What did the wizards and witches think?

Well, since half-giants seem to suffer the suspicion and dislike of normal wizards, then I'd say those relationships were frowned upon.


Is there still a chance that some Giants help the Order, even against the will of their Gurg Golgomath and in spite of the risk of being killed?

Hm...
It seems that there were some dissenters that Hagrid and Olympe stayed with, but they were slaughtered...
So I have my doubts that the other Giants would ignore this message, especially since they'd suffer the same fate as Firenze would if he returned: they've been kicked out of the "herd". So unless these giants were granted asylum by the Ministry, where would they go after the war? That's something a pro-Dumbledore giant would have to consider.

Some giants and wizards must have been equally disgusted.
Considering how a high amount of wizards react on muggle-wizard relationships (being both humans), and considering the opinion of the offspring of a moderate family about Giants (Ron) I am inclined to think that most wizards would have been extremely disgusted. They probably refused to have anything to do with Mr Hagrid. If their relationship was public and not secret, he most likely became a social outcast.

Dumbledore considered the giants to be of vital importance. What did he see in them? Did he believe in a peaceful coexistence?
He believed in the possiblity of peaceful cooperation with all creatures. He was always able to look beyond predjudices and he tried to open doors and make bridges between different beings and wizards. Dumbledore was ahead of his society, he was not blinded by the usual beliefs of wizards. A wise man and powerful wizard. People should have listened to him.

Was Karkus' overthrow planned or motivated by the Death Eaters? Did they influence/control Golgomath?
I think it's a strong possibility. We know that Voldemorts strenght is to devide people, he might have used this strategy with the Giants too. Finding one Giant strong enough to take over the Gurgship and convince him to be his follower.

Giants distrust wizards. Will they ever be able to regain a certain trust in humans and to develop friendly relations to the wizarding society?
It will take time. Anyway, I am not a fan of total integration. If Giants want to live apart from wizards, that's ok, they don't have to open a shop in Diagon Alley or have beers together. Only the possiblity of a friendly cooperation would be enough.

According to Hagrid, giants do not like to socialise with other giants. Why do they live in groups now? Are they still being hunted?
I believe it's for their own security. On Giant alone is easier to be killed by a couple of Aurors, so they probably live together like exiled to protect themselves.

Did all giants join Voldemort during the first war? If not, do you think innocent giants were killed by wizards who didn't bother to check?
Yes definitely. Wizards have not proven yet to be very considerate with other beings, and also their investigation about other beings is rather lax (see Hokey). This of course doesn't help their opinion about wizards.

Giants and humans are not that different. We see that they can fall in love and have children together (Hagrid and Olympe being the results). How do you think the giants reacted to these kind of interracial marriages? What did the wizards and witches think?
I think it was very brave of Mr Hagrid to date/marry a Giantess. He most likely offended all his surrounding (family, friends, etc) but still they were together for a time.

What has Voldemort offered the Giants in return for their loyalty? What could be interesting enough for Golgomath and his giants to join the DE without even considering joining the other side?
Golgomath is probably one of those nasty giants (similar to Fenrir in the werewolves), who didn't need much convincing to join him. But I don't think that all of them are like this.

If Karkus had joined the Order would the other Giants have followed him? Some of them would have. Before Golgomath raided the caves, Hagrid and Olympe had some of them quite convinced, so why not?
Is there still a chance that some Giants help the Order, even against the will of their Gurg Golgomath and in spite of the risk of being killed? The problem is that they are scared or dead now, those who would have considered to join the Order. I don't know how the situation in the Giant group is right now, but the last we heared was not very promising.

Considering how a high amount of wizards react on muggle-wizard relationships (being both humans), and considering the opinion of the offspring of a moderate family about Giants (Ron) I am inclined to think that most wizards would have been extremely disgusted. They probably refused to have anything to do with Mr Hagrid. If their relationship was public and not secret, he most likely became a social outcast.

You are quoting me not ignisia ;)

I think you are right, a public relationship must have meant being shunned by society, with the exception of close friends naturally. I can't imagine that Hagrid's parents have been able to keep their relationship private. You can't hide a giantess that easily.

You are quoting me not ignisia
Argh it did it again. It's that weird quick quote thing that sometimes quotes other persons :scared: (the remaining of the Gremlins I guess)

I think you are right, a public relationship must have meant being shunned by society, with the exception of close friends naturally. I can't imagine that Hagrid's parents have been able to keep their relationship private. You can't hide a giantess that easily.
Well, it depends of where they were living. If Mr Hagrid had some sort of outdoor job, like an explorer or so, it would have been possible. Nontheless I think that people probably talked about it.
I wonder if this could have been a reason for Fridwulfa to leave them.

I also wonder if it is legally possible to marry a non-human for a wizard, if the wizarding laws contemplate that possiblitiy. We have the example of Fleur and Bill of course, and the ancestors of Fleur (assuming that her grandmother was married with her grandfather), but I wonder if they actually allow marriage between Giants and humans.

Well, it depends of where they were living. If Mr Hagrid had some sort of outdoor job, like an explorer or so, it would have been possible. Nontheless I think that people probably talked about it.
I wonder if this could have been a reason for Fridwulfa to leave them.

Would giants really care what tiny humans think about them? Maybe she thought it better for Hagrid to leave, giving him a better chance to get friends.

But on the other hand we have read that she didn't really have the feelings of a mother. So maybe the marriage just failed because size in this case did matter and she longed back to be in equal company.

I also wonder if it is legally possible to marry a non-human for a wizard, if the wizarding laws contemplate that possiblitiy. We have the example of Fleur and Bill of course, and the ancestors of Fleur (assuming that her grandmother was married with her grandfather), but I wonder if they actually allow marriage between Giants and humans.

Well it is said that Hagrid's parents were married, so I guess it must have been accepted by the Ministry in some way. The current opinion on giants and human relationships might be more conservative then those back when Hagrid Sr and Fridwulfa wanted to marry.

Would giants really care what tiny humans think about them? Maybe she thought it better for Hagrid to leave, giving him a better chance to get friends.

But on the other hand we have read that she didn't really have the feelings of a mother. So maybe the marriage just failed because size in this case did matter and she longed back to be in equal company.
Hagrid says somewhere that Giantesses want to have big and strong children. Maybe she did care about what other giants were saying, because she was involved with a tiny human and had a tiny half giant son.
To be not the motherly type is maybe a giant characteristic. Maybe their way of raising children is more of 'learn it the hard way', meaning that they confront their kids early with the hierarchic fights, without offering real help and support. Strenght and size does matter in giant society, and it seems that brutality is widely accepted there.

Well it is said that Hagrid's parents were married, so I guess it must have been accepted by the Ministry in some way.
Does it really say so? I don't remember the quote. Was it in Skeeters interview?

Hagrid says somewhere that Giantesses want to have big and strong children. Maybe she did care about what other giants were saying, because she was involved with a tiny human and had a tiny half giant son.

Which means that her love for Hagrid's father and Hagrid himself wasn't that strong that it survived censure of her own kind. That makes me wonder if any human/giant relationship could work in the end...


Does it really say so? I don't remember the quote. Was it in Skeeters interview?

You have a point there, the HP lexicon assumes that Hagrid's parents were married. But I can't find any mention of it in GoF.

Which means that her love for Hagrid's father and Hagrid himself wasn't that strong that it survived censure of her own kind. That makes me wonder if any human/giant relationship could work in the end...
Well, if the problem was because she couldn't stand on one hand the discrimination from wizarding world and on the other hand the censuring of her own kind, than I think that in the end the problem is not so much in the love but in the pressure such a relationship has to endure.
And it's easy to say that they didn't love enough, even the most loving couples can break apart if there is a lot of pressure from the outside. All this of course assuming that she indeed loved Mr Hagrid (damn, don't we have a first name for him?) and left because of external reasons.
It is possible that she just left because she stopped loving him. And maybe she thought that Hagrid would have a rough time in Giant society, and was better off in the wizarding world.

Well, if the problem was because she couldn't stand on one hand the discrimination from wizarding world and on the other hand the censuring of her own kind, than I think that in the end the problem is not so much in the love but in the pressure such a relationship has to endure.

And it's easy to say that they didn't love enough, even the most loving couples can break apart if there is a lot of pressure from the outside. All this of course assuming that she indeed loved Mr Hagrid (damn, don't we have a first name for him?) and left because of external reasons.


Yes, I can see now that the pressure from both sides probably brought and end to the relationship. Hagrid and his father weren't quite fit to live in isolation either so maybe they decided this would be the best for all sides.

Maybe they have the same first name.


It is possible that she just left because she stopped loving him. And maybe she thought that Hagrid would have a rough time in Giant society, and was better off in the wizarding world.


I don't think Hagrid would have survived it, even with protection of his mother he would have had little chance. At least he would have been bullied constantly. Even Grawp as a small but full giant was bullied.

Dumbledore considered the giants to be of vital importance. What did he see in them? Did he believe in a peaceful coexistence?
I think he just believed they would be a powerful ally, given their physical size and power. Being the optimist he is, I Dumbledore likely did believe in a peaceful coexistence if he could convince both parties to agree.

Was Karkus' overthrow planned or motivated by the Death Eaters? Did they influence/control Golgomath?
It could have been encouraged by the Death Eaters, or there could have been two factions of giants - one that followed Golgomath and the other that followed Karkus. It's possible that Golgomath's followers took their opportunity to overthrow Karkus with the arrival of the Death Eaters first and then Hagrid's arrival.

Giants distrust wizards. Will they ever be able to regain a certain trust in humans and to develop friendly relations to the wizarding society?
Possibly. If so, I think Grawp will play a significant role in bridging the two.

According to Hagrid, giants do not like to socialise with other giants. Why do they live in groups now? Are they still being hunted?
Perhaps they live in groups because they pool their resources together and mutually benefit one another that way. Or perhaps it's because the giants are running out of space to live individually so they must band together in groups. They could still be being hunted.

Did all giants join Voldemort during the first war? If not, do you think innocent giants were killed by wizards who didn't bother to check?
I can't imagine every single giant joined Voldemort- there are always exceptions. I think it's very possible that wizards killed innocent giants, believing that the entire giant race had gone over to Voldemort.

Giants and humans are not that different. We see that they can fall in love and have children together (Hagrid and Olympe being the results). How do you think the giants reacted to these kind of interracial marriages? What did the wizards and witches think?
I'm sure both the giants and the wizarding community frowned upon these kinds of marriages, for the most part.

What has Voldemort offered the Giants in return for their loyalty? What could be interesting enough for Golgomath and his giants to join the DE without even considering joining the other side?
He may have offered them protection from wizards, who the giants believe are persecuting them and hunting them. I do wonder what the Death Eaters offered to make them not even consider Hagrid's propositions. Perhaps they told the giants lies about anyone trying to make contact with them so the giants would consider someone like Hagrid a threat.

If Karkus had joined the Order would the other Giants have followed him?
I think some of them would have and some of them wouldn't have. I don't think all of the members of any race are going to be of the same mind. Therefore, I believe that some of the giants would have agreed with Karkus, some of them would have agreed with Golgomath (I picture him as the leader of another faction of giants), and still others would have not gotten involved and chosen no side.

Is there still a chance that some Giants help the Order, even against the will of their Gurg Golgomath and in spite of the risk of being killed?
Yes, I think there could be a few, not that many though.

Dumbledore considered the giants to be of vital importance. What did he see in them? Did he believe in a peaceful coexistence?
I think he saw in them, a group, which has suffered great persecution at the hands of wizards, and a group who deserve the chance to take their place in the war (on the right side this time!) I think he wanted to give them an opportunity to exist peacefully alongside the wizard community and prove that prejudices and stereotypes are stupid. I don’t think making contact with them was purely about making a stronger army than Voldemort’s. Dumbledore believes in choices and he wanted to give the giants the chance of choosing between right and wrong.

Was Karkus' overthrow planned or motivated by the Death Eaters? Did they influence/control Golgomath?
I think it was probably motivated by the Death Eaters. If they knew that Hagrid and Olympe had made contact then they needed to do the same thing. It probably wasn’t hard to see which giants didn’t get on particularly well with Karkus and then I think they approached them, possibly with gifts and offers from Voldemort. Flattery goes a long way, so it probably got Golgomath wondering why he wasn’t the Gurg, if he was important enough to have been approached too! Of course this is purely speculation! I have nothing to back it up except that the death eaters were present, and I doubt they were there just to watch Hagrid and Olympe ‘steal’ the giants from under Voldemort’s nose.

Giants distrust wizards. Will they ever be able to regain a certain trust in humans and to develop friendly relations to the wizarding society?
Hopefully! I think this is what Dumbledore was working towards, ultimately-to integrate the giants into society (as much as possible), not just to use them as an army. I think some giants will begin to trust humans again-we’ve seen it in Grawp and I really hope he isn’t the only one!

According to Hagrid, giants do not like to socialise with other giants. Why do they live in groups now? Are they still being hunted?
Well Hagrid says they have to stick in groups for their own protection and I guess that makes sense. Also, I suppose it could be a bit like the centaurs, in that they have to stick to certain areas that have been designated by the ministry. Plus, with such a dramatically reduced population, they need to be…er…more accessible to each other in order to keep the race alive.

Giants and humans are not that different. We see that they can fall in love and have children together (Hagrid and Olympe being the results). How do you think the giants reacted to these kind of interracial marriages? What did the wizards and witches think?
It doesn't seem that many wizards and witches are aware of it. I mean, for example, Draco thought that Hagrid had been in some sort of ‘spell accident’, and it didn’t appear that he even considered Hagrid might be half giant. Also, Hagrid never had any particular problems until it was publicly revealed that his mother was a giant, so I suppose others thought the same as Draco. As for those who were aware of it, I have no idea! I guess many would have been unhappy about it.

What has Voldemort offered the Giants in return for their loyalty? What could be interesting enough for Golgomath and his giants to join the DE without even considering joining the other side?
Probably the opportunity to kill lots of humans and get revenge for the way they have been treated. I suppose, also, more freedom and protection too so that the giants feel safer and can then ‘disperse’ instead of living in the crowded groups which obviously are not ideal!

If Karkus had joined the Order would the other Giants have followed him?
I think many would have, but probably not all of them.

Is there still a chance that some Giants help the Order, even against the will of their Gurg Golgomath and in spite of the risk of being killed?
I think so. Well I certainly hope so anyway! They can’t all be bloodthirsty and evil! We know Grawp isn’t and there are probably more giants like him.

The Giants may have been very different years ago before they were almost exterminated. They obviously had relationships with wizards, we have half giants like Hagrid to prove this, and they were able to align themselves with Voldermort. Maybe they changed from a more peaceful race to a violent race after they joined Voldermort. I would like to know what they were promised by him for joining with him in the last war. We don't know that all the giants joined him, maybe that is why Hagrid's mother left, she was worried about the direction the giants were headed toward. Maybe she left because she was afraid that wizards that believed in that pureblood stuff would hurt her son if she stayed with him. (However, she did leave before Voldermort became Voldermort.) Are the Giants in hiding the same as the ones that helped Voldermort, or did they leave for other reasons?

We don't know that all the giants joined him, maybe that is why Hagrid's mother left, she was worried about the direction the giants were headed toward.
Interesting thought. My guess would be that not all Giants joined Voldemort, same as now not all Giants agreed with Golgomath and Co, only that they were killed.
The problem I see there is that Voldemort was only a child when Fridwulfa left Mr Hagrid. We know that Tom is around 2-3 years older than Hagrid and that Fridwulfa left Hagrid and dad when he was a kid.


I don't think that giants are naturally evil and violent. Hagrid says that they are not meant to stay together, and that they fight and kill each other. The problem is that due to exileand persecution they are forced to stay together for their own protection.

It seems possible that the worst of the Giants (from the human point of view, the strongest and most ruthless) unfortunately were those that survived. There must have been something good about Fridwulfa for Hagrid, Sr., to care about her.

Does it strike anyone else that the giants as a whole seem like enormous caricatures of a 2-year old? Little language, no logic, no patience, negativity, explosive tempers? Capable of loving but not "great mothers." Self-centered, very limited in their ability to relate to others?

What if a whole society consisted of enormous 2-year-olds who never grew up? Hitting each other with axes instead of alphabet blocks?

Interesting thought. My guess would be that not all Giants joined Voldemort, same as now not all Giants agreed with Golgomath and Co, only that they were killed.
The problem I see there is that Voldemort was only a child when Fridwulfa left Mr Hagrid. We know that Tom is around 2-3 years older than Hagrid and that Fridwulfa left Hagrid and dad when he was a kid.


I don't think that giants are naturally evil and violent. Hagrid says that they are not meant to stay together, and that they fight and kill each other. The problem is that due to exileand persecution they are forced to stay together for their own protection.

Hagrid's mom left before Voldermort gained power, but the giants could have been in decline already. They could have had changes in their society that started well before Voldermort, but that he used to his advantage as he gained power. He could have appealed to certain elements in the giant society and caused further destruction to their society.

...Voldermort...could have appealed to certain elements in the giant society and caused further destruction to their society.

Yes, that makes a lot of sense!

It seems possible that the worst of the Giants (from the human point of view, the strongest and most ruthless) unfortunately were those that survived. There must have been something good about Fridwulfa for Hagrid, Sr., to care about her.

Does it strike anyone else that the giants as a whole seem like enormous caricatures of a 2-year old? Little language, no logic, no patience, negativity, explosive tempers? Capable of loving but not "great mothers." Self-centered, very limited in their ability to relate to others?

What if a whole society consisted of enormous 2-year-olds who never grew up? Hitting each other with axes instead of alphabet blocks?

That is their society now, but it is difficult to believe that they were the same when Hagrid's mother and father were married. It seems like she would have killed him instead of marring him nowdays. Maybe they were not always like this.

The giants must have some emotional depth, fridwulfa must have had some feelings towards Hagrid and his father. The giants seem to have a strong sense of tribe almost packlike in nature. The violent take overs only seem when the Gurg is seen to be weak. Fratenising with humans could be seen as a weakness. The reason that Fridwulfa returned to the giants could be that need for belonging again. She had only her partner, I don't think it was ever mentioned wether Hagrid's dad and mum were married. She didn't belong with the wizards and while she had a human family she didn't belong with the giants either. She may have wanted to take Hagrid with her but it wasn't practicle as he probably would have been killed, survival of the fittest. I think JKR has based the giants on a kind of prehistoric human society or pack or pride like heirarchy.

I think JKR has based the giants on a kind of prehistoric human society or pack or pride like heirarchy.

That's an interesting thought...For comparison:

Wolf packs have an alpha male and female and only the alphas are allowed to reproduce; the others help raise the pups, which may be relatives, and subordinates can hope for a turn to reproduce if they become alphas later. They are decent to each other within the pack, as long as the subordinate wolves acknowledge the leaders. If they rebel, it gets vicious. The group hunts cooperatively. The alphas also lead the hunt. It would make sense that the giant society might have been like this before it degenerated, with maybe only one extended family in a large territory. The story tells us they used to live more dispersed and are not made to be crammed together.

Lion prides consist of a group of related females and their offspring, plus one or a pair of unrelated males. The lionesses do all the hunting, but the males feed first. When a new male takes over a pride, he kills the cubs that are offspring of the previous male. That sounds less like what we know of the giants.

Dumbledore considered the giants to be of vital importance. What did he see in them? Did he believe in a peaceful coexistence?
I think he thought it was vitally important to keep the giants away from Voldemort. The main reason for going to them so quickly was to beat the Death Eaters. It was obvious that the Death Eaters would also contact the giants, and I don't think Dumbledore could have prevented that from happening. But I think he was hoping that the giants could be turned against Voldemort before the Death Eaters arrived. I'm not sure if the plan was ever to pursuade the giants to fight against Voldemort, because if the giants left their sanctuary and came back to Britain they would be hunted down by the Ministry for their threat to the population.


Was Karkus' overthrow planned or motivated by the Death Eaters? Did they influence/control Golgomath?
Possibly, but I don't think we have any evidence to help answer this. Apparently it's the giant way to take over leadership by killing the Gurg, and with the giants living in such a confined area arguments must have been frequent. I think Hagrid said they had mostly killed each other off.


Giants distrust wizards. Will they ever be able to regain a certain trust in humans and to develop friendly relations to the wizarding society?
I think not. The current wizarding world is too proud of its own roots to accept giants into their society. Even hags, vampires and werewolves, who are more human in appearance than giants, seem not (or barely) to be tolerated by most wizards. The centaurs removed themselves from all dealings with wizards because of the historic snobbery over beast and being categories (see Fantastic Beasts). Except for connections through people like Hagrid, I don't see the giants ever having a place in wizard society. Voldemort will use them and then discard them.


According to Hagrid, giants do not like to socialise with other giants. Why do they live in groups now? Are they still being hunted?
I think the giants have been shunted into the mountains they live in to keep them out of sight of the Muggles and away from the wizards. In Fantastic Beasts is says one of the ways to conceal magical creatures is to create a safe habitat and keep them there. I reckon that's what the wizards have done to the giants.


Did all giants join Voldemort during the first war? If not, do you think innocent giants were killed by wizards who didn't bother to check?
I imagine only some tribes would have joined Voldemort, or perhaps just a single group. It would take a number of Death Eaters to control a giant, and one giant could do plenty of damage so I don't think Voldemort would need many of them. I think the actions of one giant group would be enough to turn the wizarding community against all giants so that they were hunted down and exiled from the country. Since giants don't seem easy to talk to, I don't see how the wizards could have found out which side they were on.


Giants and humans are not that different. We see that they can fall in love and have children together (Hagrid and Olympe being the results). How do you think the giants reacted to these kind of interracial marriages? What did the wizards and witches think?
I reckon they were disgusted. Wizards just aren't open-minded enough to accept it.


What has Voldemort offered the Giants in return for their loyalty? What could be interesting enough for Golgomath and his giants to join the DE without even considering joining the other side?
Voldemort would offer them something that appealed to their nature. I think he offered them freedom and the chance to return to Britain. He probably also said they could pay back the humans for hunting down the giants and exiling them to the mountains. This would appeal to the giants who are naturally war-like and solitary.


If Karkus had joined the Order would the other Giants have followed him?
Is there still a chance that some Giants help the Order, even against the will of their Gurg Golgomath and in spite of the risk of being killed?
I think Grawp will fight alongside Hagrid, but I don't think any other giants will fight for the Order. I don't believe that was ever Dumbledore's intention.

WOMBAT grade III (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=106293) has given us some information on Giants :)


First that the Giants were driven into hiding in the early 80s

Then secondly question 14 suggests that the remote possibility exists (unconfirmed though ) that Giants might have allied traditionally with the Dark Arts (there were several options, and only one was false)

For what we have seen, they indeed seem to have allied with Voldemort in the past wars. But we've also seen Fridwulfa who had a relationship with Hagrids dad, and Grawp who is not evil, and more important Karkus, who was quite pleased with Hagrid and Olympe. It's more he had heard of Dumbledore and his supporting of Giants.

What does this tell us about Giants? Have they allied with dark wizards because the 'regular' society has rejected them? Are they notoriously evil? Is this statement wrong?
Why would Dumbledore support a group of people who are dark?

First that the Giants were driven into hiding in the early 80s

Then secondly question 14 suggests that the remote possibility exists (unconfirmed though ) that Giants might have allied traditionally with the Dark Arts (there were several options, and only one was false)

For what we have seen, they indeed seem to have allied with Voldemort in the past wars. But we've also seen Fridwulfa who had a relationship with Hagrids dad, and Grawp who is not evil, and more important Karkus, who was quite pleased with Hagrid and Olympe. It's more he had heard of Dumbledore and his supporting of Giants.

What does this tell us about Giants? Have they allied with dark wizards because the 'regular' society has rejected them?

I don't know how it was before Voldemort became that powerful, but since Fridwulfa was able to live at least for a short time span with Hagrid and his father, society must have tolerated them.

When Voldemort became powerful that changed, some giants, not every single one of them, joined Voldemort. Probably because of their character, they preferred Voldemort's attitude towards them. They probably could do what they wanted, kill people without Ministry restrictions.

I guess that after Voldemort's downfall they were chased out of the country and probably suffered some heavy losses when that happened. This must have given even the friendly gaints a dislike and fear of wizards. Those friendly giants might have have felt unable to live with the prejudice.

So when Hagrid and Madame Maxime came, the friendly giants did remember the good old times and were willing to potentially return. But the evil, are just evil by character and have their own form of prejudice and remember the Ministry's attitude. They probably remember the freedom they had when they formed an alliance with Voldemort (via stories from elder giants?) and liked what the Death Eaters said.


Are they notoriously evil? Is this statement wrong?
Why would Dumbledore support a group of people who are dark?

I don't think that they are all evil, like with everything there are good and there are bad ones and the in between. I am sure Dumbledore knew this and send Hagrid looking for the good and the in between.

WOMBAT grade III (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=106293) has given us some information on Giants :)


First that the Giants were driven into hiding in the early 80s
I support that decision. Giants are dangerous and with all the muggles around it would cause more harm, than anything else when they would be allow to live where they wanted.

Then secondly question 14 suggests that the remote possibility exists (unconfirmed though ) that Giants might have allied traditionally with the Dark Arts (there were several options, and only one was false)
I'm not surprised if it is true. Giants aren't the most friendly creatures alive and are brutal, that may be the reason why they ally with the trouble makers.

For what we have seen, they indeed seem to have allied with Voldemort in the past wars. But we've also seen Fridwulfa who had a relationship with Hagrids dad, and Grawp who is not evil, and more important Karkus, who was quite pleased with Hagrid and Olympe. It's more he had heard of Dumbledore and his supporting of Giants.
There are exceptions everywhere. I agree that Grawp is not that evil, but he isn't really not dangerous as well like most of the giants. As for Karkus, I rather view it as "tolerating" them, than a happy friendship.

What does this tell us about Giants? Have they allied with dark wizards because the 'regular' society has rejected them? Are they notoriously evil? Is this statement wrong?
Why would Dumbledore support a group of people who are dark?
Like said above, IMO they are on the dark side because they have a brutal nature. It's easier to convince them though, when you tell them that they shall fight against the one who send them into hiding.

The statement is not wrong, there are exceptions though, but all in all I agree that giants are evil and dangerous.

I don't know how it was before Voldemort became that powerful, but since Fridwulfa was able to live at least for a short time span with Hagrid and his father, society must have tolerated them.
We don't know where they lived during that time. She only lived with them for 3 years and the could have done it in the mountains as well.

I support that decision. Giants are dangerous and with all the muggles around it would cause more harm, than anything else when they would be allow to live where they wanted.
Well, one thing is that giants follow the same secrecy status than wizards and another thing is to do a whole genocide. Giants got exterminated in Britain, and the remaining wizards are forced to hide in the mountains. They got killed systematically and I am positive that not all of them were Dark Giants. After all, Karkus was one of them.

Giants aren't the most friendly creatures alive and are brutal, that may be the reason why they ally with the trouble makers.
Well, same goes for banshees, vampires, werewolves. I'd even say that humans are the most dangerous specie in the world, given how they treat their fellow living beings.

There are exceptions everywhere. I agree that Grawp is not that evil, but he isn't really not dangerous as well like most of the giants. As for Karkus, I rather view it as "tolerating" them, than a happy friendship.
Karkus was not an exception. He was the Gurg, the Chief of the Giant Clan (until Golgomath showed to have more muscles). Karkus had heard of Dumbledore, positively. He was able to listen to Hagrid and Olympe, even though they represented the people who had exterminated his kind in Britain (wizards).
Other Giants were able to talk english and translate. They were cooperative. I don't see that this is a sign for notorious evilness.

The problem with the giants killing each other lies in how the wizards have treated them: Giants get persecuted and have to live in groups for own protection. But as Hagrid says, they are not meant to live in groups, they'd be better off living solitarily. If wizards had left them alone, they could live how it better suits them, and less disaster would have happened.

agree that Grawp is not that evil, but he isn't really not dangerous as well like most of the giants.
I'd like to see you chase off a whole herd of armed centaurs :cool: :p

Grawp not only is not evil, but he has shown to be able to integrate in society, as long as he has enough space for his own. Giants are that way, they need their space, and having this, they can perfectly coexist with others.

Well, one thing is that giants follow the same secrecy status than wizards and another thing is to do a whole genocide. Giants got exterminated in Britain, and the remaining wizards are forced to hide in the mountains. They got killed systematically and I am positive that not all of them were Dark Giants. After all, Karkus was one of them.
I think you mean that the remaining giants are forced to live in the mountains. :)

Would you agree with letting them life near muggles? It's the best for them and the humans to let them live in the mountains. They have their space there and nobody needs to fear to get hurt easily. Hagrid himself mentioned that muggles who find the giants in the mountains are killed by those. Letting them live next to them, would be a really terrible thing to do.

Karkus died because Golgomath was ripping his head off, same giant who wore a necklace made out of human bones.

While I agree that they shouldn't have put the giants in one place, because it's against their nature. But when you see that they kill each other every few days, then IMO it's the nature of a giant to be brutal. Other species may have arranged to live with eachother in harmony.


Other Giants were able to talk english and translate. They were cooperative. I don't see that this is a sign for notorious evilness.And yet only because the Gurp told them. Ignore the others, go straight to the Gurg and gain his trust, otherwise the others will kill you.

The problem with the giants killing each other lies in how the wizards have treated them: Giants get persecuted and have to live in groups for own protection. But as Hagrid says, they are not meant to live in groups, they'd be better off living solitarily. If wizards had left them alone, they could live how it better suits them, and less disaster would have happened.See my points above.


I'd like to see you chase off a whole herd of armed centaurs :cool: :p
He has muscles and is big. not really an equal opponent to centaurs.

Grawp not only is not evil, but he has shown to be able to integrate in society, as long as he has enough space for his own. Giants are that way, they need their space, and having this, they can perfectly coexist with others.Excuse my words, but Grawp looks like a trained dog. Teach him to sit on a chair and speak some sentences doesn't make him equally to other humans.

From the describtions the Giants are most likely in mountains beyond Minsk and the next big massive is the Ural. Even if it's not the Ural, they are in a region with many space. There are only 70 left of them and they probably could find more space there if they wanted to.

And yet only because the Gurp told them. Ignore the others, go straight to the Gurg and gain his trust, otherwise the others will kill you.

Those giants hiding in the caves didn't kill Hagrid and Madame Maxime yet the Gurg was nowhere to be seen. So when Hagrid was able to win there trust they seemed friendly enough. Only because of the beatings of Gurg's gang they shied off.


Excuse my words, but Grawp looks like a trained dog. Teach him to sit on a chair and speak some sentences doesn't make him equally to other humans.

Grawp is just getting started with learning the language and customs of the magical world. He has grown up in a society that has very little civilization, he isn't an equal to humans yet. He still needs to learn a lot and seems to try his best at getting more civilized. If he doesn't reach the level of a wizard then that's not his fault but the limit of his species. It's possible that every human and animal has it's limits of evolution. (seriously wonder if I am talking nonsense here)

Grawp is just getting started with learning the language and customs of the magical world. He has grown up in a society that has very little civilization, he isn't an equal to humans yet. He still needs to learn a lot and seems to try his best at getting more civilized. If he doesn't reach the level of a wizard then that's not his fault but the limit of his species. It's possible that every human and animal has it's limits of evolution. (seriously wonder if I am talking nonsense here)

No, you are making perfect sense. Every species has their limits as well as their strong points. They are different from one another. Thus, I agree with you on what you have just said about Grawp. He is still in the process of learning, still trying to get used to a different way of living and thinking. He will never be the same with a wizard. This is due to the differences between species. I am not sure that I like the term "equal".

He will never be the same with a wizard. This is due to the differences between species. I am not sure that I like the term "equal".

I mean there that he isn't on the same level of civilisation yet, although one could dispute what civilization is precisely... or that he isn't acceptable to the wizarding world yet because he lacks some basic skills that make him so far unacceptable to have his rightful place in society.

Oh, thanks, I see. :D You are right and I agree on that.

But I was only referring to the term in general, not the way you used it. :)

Oh, thanks, I see. :D You are right and I agree on that.

But I was only referring to the term in general, not the way you used it. :)

A bit too much Animal Farm :)

While I agree that they shouldn't have put the giants in one place, because it's against their nature. But when you see that they kill each other every few days, then IMO it's the nature of a giant to be brutal. Other species may have arranged to live with eachother in harmony.


I don't know if you could really say that other species would have lived with each other in harmony, you can see that the centaurs don't do so. They have kicked out a member of their group because they don't agree with what he had done, they would have killed him if they had managed to grab him.

I don't think Fridwulfa was brutal by nature otherwise I doubt Hagrids father would have survived his relationship.

Would you agree with letting them life near muggles? It's the best for them and the humans to let them live in the mountains. They have their space there and nobody needs to fear to get hurt easily. Hagrid himself mentioned that muggles who find the giants in the mountains are killed by those. Letting them live next to them, would be a really terrible thing to do.
I don't think they want to live near muggles. They like their space and their mountains scenery. Nonetheless right now they are exiled. They have no choice of place. And they probably live together because Aurors are still killing them.
Giants can coexist with humans, as long as they have their area and the humans don't interfere with it. I am positive that Giants interprete the muggles climbing in the mountains as a violation of their area, and from their point of view, they are right.

But when you see that they kill each other every few days, then IMO it's the nature of a giant to be brutal. Of course Giants are no fluffy flobberworms. But nor are Werewolves, Veelas, Goblins and of course, wizards. Hagrid says clearly that they are not meant to live in groups. Well, no problem with that, let them live solitarily, and allow them enough space for their needs.
I don't know if someone has read His Dark Material. The bears are similar in their structure, when they live together they have problems. In the end they have one ruler, but generally separate and live and hunt alone.

Giants are not so different to humans, or they wouldn't be able to have kids together. They have different cultures, but are equally worth.

I mean there that he isn't on the same level of civilisation yet, although one could dispute what civilization is precisely... or that he isn't acceptable to the wizarding world yet because he lacks some basic skills that make him so far unacceptable to have his rightful place in society. It's a very colonialistic view to cathegorize some civilisations better than others. Of course this debate would lead us way too far, but I personally am of the opinion that any civilisation, may it be technological (muggles), magical (wizards) or more rural (giants) has a right to exist, and none is worth more than the other. Different but equal.

Grawp is just getting started with learning the language and customs of the magical world. He has grown up in a society that has very little civilization, he isn't an equal to humans yet. He still needs to learn a lot and seems to try his best at getting more civilized. If he doesn't reach the level of a wizard then that's not his fault but the limit of his species.
I agree. We don't need a civilized Giant wearing suits and tie, or becoming experts in Arithmancy. Giants should stay the way they are, but we've seen that it's possible for them to be perfectly peaceful with humans. We've seen that wizards were wrong, thinking that giants are only nasty killing machines.

Every species has their limits as well as their strong points. They are different from one another. Thus, I agree with you on what you have just said about Grawp. He is still in the process of learning, still trying to get used to a different way of living and thinking. He will never be the same with a wizard. This is due to the differences between species. I am not sure that I like the term "equal". That's what I meant. :) It's also about the distorted perception the wizarding world tends to have about non human intelligent beings, reflected perfectly in the Ministry fountain. The same mistake is made towards giants.

I don't think they want to live near muggles. They like their space and their mountains scenery. Nonetheless right now they are exiled. They have no choice of place. And they probably live together because Aurors are still killing them.

Giants can coexist with humans, as long as they have their area and the humans don't interfere with it. I am positive that Giants interprete the muggles climbing in the mountains as a violation of their area, and from their point of view, they are right.

I agree, they probably think that there is safety in numbers and that's why they are huddled together so close to each other. Friction between solitary creatures is bound to cause violence and victims.


It's a very colonialistic view to cathegorize some civilisations better than others. Of course this debate would lead us way too far, but I personally am of the opinion that any civilisation, may it be technological (muggles), magical (wizards) or more rural (giants) has a right to exist, and none is worth more than the other. Different but equal.

That's what I meant. :) It's also about the distorted perception the wizarding world tends to have about non human intelligent beings, reflected perfectly in the Ministry fountain. The same mistake is made towards giants.

Yes of course none of those civilisations is better than the other, however I guess some wizards (especially some at the Ministry of Magic) seem to think that way. Prejudice against the unknown I guess.

Yes of course none of those civilisations is better than the other, however I guess some wizards (especially some at the Ministry of Magic) seem to think that way. Prejudice against the unknown I guess.

Exactly. We cannot compare civilisations. It is just easier for the Ministry to discriminate against other species than try to analyse the way other species live and try and find ways to co-exist with them and respect them for what they are.

Those giants hiding in the caves didn't kill Hagrid and Madame Maxime yet the Gurg was nowhere to be seen. So when Hagrid was able to win there trust they seemed friendly enough. Only because of the beatings of Gurg's gang they shied off.
And because they were badly hurt by Golgomath's peoples they weren't able to attack Hagrid and Maxime themselves. Hagrid said that they probably would have done that if that wasn' the case.

I mean there that he isn't on the same level of civilisation yet, although one could dispute what civilization is precisely... or that he isn't acceptable to the wizarding world yet because he lacks some basic skills that make him so far unacceptable to have his rightful place in society.


I don't know if you could really say that other species would have lived with each other in harmony, you can see that the centaurs don't do so. They have kicked out a member of their group because they don't agree with what he had done, they would have killed him if they had managed to grab him.
Centaurs don't kill eachother every few months. They lived in Harmony till one of them broke their rules, while giants seem to kill eachother without any sense.

I don't think Fridwulfa was brutal by nature otherwise I doubt Hagrids father would have survived his relationship.
And yet is Hagrid saying that she wasn't a "great mother". What do you think he means by that?

I don't think they want to live near muggles. They like their space and their mountains scenery. Nonetheless right now they are exiled. They have no choice of place. And they probably live together because Aurors are still killing them. Giants can coexist with humans, as long as they have their area and the humans don't interfere with it. I am positive that Giants interprete the muggles climbing in the mountains as a violation of their area, and from their point of view, they are right.
And in mountains far far away from the next civilation is the best option.

Where does it say that Aurors are killing giants?

And yet is Hagrid saying that she wasn't a "great mother". What do you think he means by that?
He explains it later. He says that the main goal of a giantess mother is to have big strong kids. Of course Hagrid being only half giant doesn't fall into that cathegory, so I guess she chose to abandon them and to look for another companion.

Centaurs don't kill eachother every few months. They lived in Harmony till one of them broke their rules, while giants seem to kill eachother without any sense.
It's not without sense. They kill each other, because they live together exiled. They are not meant to live in groups, but they do, because of their own security. Centaurs on the other hand are group creatures, they live in herds. We could discuss here if it's really that peaceful as you suggest, as the centaurs chose to sacrifice any individual who steps out of the norm (Firenze was going to be killed), but personally I'm of the opinion that no structure of living is better than the other. You simply can't compare apples to pears. One is a herd structure, the other one is a forced group living in creatures who should live far away from each other.

Where does it say that Aurors are killing giants? It says somewhere that aurors exterminated all the giants in Britain.


And in mountains far far away from the next civilation is the best option. I do think that we should leave the discussion of how giants should be treated by society for the Discrimination thread (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=92616) and maybe stay here on the giant group discussion. :) Only my two cents on that: I don't think that wizards have the right to decide where and how other beings have to live. It reminds me of Native americans and their reservations.

It doesn't fit in this thread?

Anyway, I don't mind them killing the Giants. They were allied with Voldemort in VW1 and fought with them. Why shouldn't the Aurors fight them, same as they did the DE's? Depending on what the Giants had to do, it might be necessary to kill them, not to cause more human deaths.

The aurors should fight them, but they shouldn't go and look for them to kill them. The reason why the Giants became so violent is because they were persecuted and killed by wizards in the first place. They weren't really given a reason to trust wizards. So when Voldemort comes, he offers them a chance to regain their old territory and be themselves. I can understand why they decided to join him. It wasn't a good decicion, but it was understandable.

The reason why the Giants became so violent is because they were persecuted and killed by wizards in the first place. They weren't really given a reason to trust wizards
Yep I agree.

The aurors should fight them, but they shouldn't go and look for them to kill them.I think that the danger lies in generalizing them. We've seen that not all giants are on voldemorts side, some are in hiding now. But Aurors most probably get the order to kill all giant, without finding out on what side they are. So potentially even Grawp would be in danger to be killed by a random auror passing by.


I can understand why they decided to join him. It wasn't a good decicion, but it was understandable.
Dumbledore tried to prevent this when he suggested Fudge in GoF to send word to the Giants, but Fudge rejected it.

Anyway, I don't mind them killing the Giants. They were allied with Voldemort in VW1 and fought with them. Why shouldn't the Aurors fight them, same as they did the DE's? Depending on what the Giants had to do, it might be necessary to kill them, not to cause more human deaths.

Aurors have a right to prosecute giants that have been guilty of killing wizards and muggles. However the problem is that the Ministry makes no difference between guilty giants and innocent giants. They have branded giants as a whole as dangerous to mankind. Which isn't the right thing to do.