Did Hermione kiss Viktor Krum? v4 [Archive]

meesha1971

February 1st, 2007, 2:39 pm

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that there were not teenage romantic feelings between the couples. My opinion is that Harry's being in love with Cho is different than being in love with Ginny. I'm sure we can all agree that being "in love" when dating as a young teenager, while sincere, is a fleeting experience, until we learn who we are and what we want.

What I meant was that JKR has given us a quote saying that all the characters were in love with the wrong people as their hormones started to kick in, which I believe is credible evidence that Hermione & Krum were a couple in GoF -- although not destined to be a long-term commitment -- and by JKR's quote we can assume that Hermione & Krum did snog, as Ginny said.

As I said before, Harry wasn't "in love" with Cho. He had a mild crush based on physical attraction. Nothing more. Ron wasn't "in love" with anyone - and didn't even have a crush on anyone. Ginny wasn't "in love" with Neville and didn't have a crush on him. So the quote is inaccurate in terms of what was shown on page. It wasn't "everyone" - it was just Harry. And he wasn't "in love" - he just had a crush.

It's also significant that Jo wasn't quite as cautious in interviews at that time - at least regarding "shipping" issues. If you really want to get technical, the "shipping wars" really never should have happened because Jo settled the issue back then when she revealed that Harry and Hermione were just platonic friends and that there was something going on between Ron and Hermione - he just didn't realize it yet. Basically, she was having fun with that and made a flippant comment about it - not being aware that fans would be picking her words apart years later.

It's the lack of consistency that makes this issue so suspicious. She makes a comment that "everyone" is in love with the wrong person, but that is not reflected on page. She shows everyone else's prior relationships on page - and willingly discusses them in detail. Nothing regarding Hermione and Krum is shown or indicated on page and, to date, Jo has said nothing about them beyond "Ron would like to know" or "It dawns on Ron". On top of that, she has basically revealed that one of them does not have any physical experience because she was very quick to emphasize that she was not trying to show that. Hermione is the only one possible because she's the only one that nothing has been shown for. She also made it very clear on page that Hermione and Ginny are not close enough for Hermione to share that kind of information with.

The only thing that fits is that Ginny is making an assumption based on the gossip surrounding Hermione and Krum in GOF. Anything else would create a plot hole and be derogatory to both Hermione and Ginny's characters. And that point is proven on the character analysis threads. Take a look at the Ginny thread. One of the pieces of evidence being used as justification for Ginny being a "bad character" is the fact that Ginny blurted out Hermione's "secret" with no consideration to Hermione and showed no remorse for doing so. That's the sort of thing that I'm talking about. Ginny making an assumption based on gossip eliminates the derogatory effect on both characters and removes any possibility of a plot hole.

This has been posted several times in version 3 - there are two periods - one from the time when Hermione storms off till Harry and Ron come back to the Great Hall after they overheard Hagrid; another from the time they retreat into discussing giants in a corner for the rest of the ball until they go out of the Great Hall and find Hermione and Viktor already in the Entrance Hall. During these periods there's no mention of Harry and Ron noticing Hermione, although Harry is looking at the dancefloor, since he sees Cho dancing with Cedric.

As I said before, Hermione stormed off into the crowd. She didn't leave the Great Hall. That's noted on page. Harry and Ron were not outside for very long - and even so there is nothing on page to show or indicate Hermione ever leaving the Great Hall. Harry notes that Hermione and Krum are in the middle of a dance when they come back inside. So we know what Hermione and Krum were doing during that time - Krum located Hermione in the crowd, they had drinks, and then resumed dancing. Nor were she and Krum alone in the Entrance Hall. So, basically, Hermione and Krum were surrounded by other students the entire time. If they had been making out, it would have been all over the school by the next morning.

It is also noted on page that Ron was watching Hermione with Krum. They could see the dance floor from where they were sitting because Harry is watching Cho. It is most likely that Ron continued to watch Hermione as well.

At the end of the book - when Krum asks Hermione if he can speak with her - Ron watches them. His height gives him an advantage there because he was able to look over the crowd. Even so, it is still a situation where Hermione and Krum were surrounded by other students. If they had been making out at that time, it would have been talked about as well.

Basically, there are no opportunities presented where Hermione could have been making out with Krum. A quick peck is slightly possible, but nothing more.

sirena

February 1st, 2007, 2:58 pm

Basically, there are no opportunities presented where Hermione could have been making out with Krum. A quick peck is slightly possible, but nothing more.

That would be accurate in Harry's case, since the books are from his POV. We follow him around and see all important moments that happen to him. But it's not accurate when it comes to Hermione. We don't see what she's doing when she's not around Harry, we just can't know if she and Krum kissed or not, we can only guess that they did, or that they didn't. Maybe not during the ball, or at the end when they said goodbye, but who knows if those were the only moments that they spent together? Probably not, but we just don't know, because the books are not from Hermione's POV.

meesha1971

February 1st, 2007, 3:16 pm

That would be accurate in Harry's case, since the books are from his POV. We follow him around and see all important moments that happen to him. But it's not accurate when it comes to Hermione. We don't see what she's doing when she's not around Harry, we just can't know if she and Krum kissed or not, we can only guess that they did, or that they didn't. Maybe not during the ball, or at the end when they said goodbye, but who knows if those were the only moments that they spent together? Probably not, but we just don't know, because the books are not from Hermione's POV.

It doesn't matter. Hermione is one of the central characters and, as such, there must be something on page to show or indicate any relevant off page action. Whether or not she made out with Krum turned out to be a huge issue in HBP. Because of that, there must be something on page in GOF to support it in order for it to be true.

Harry leaving the room is not enough to indicate opportunity. Particularly when we know that Krum had to locate Hermione in the crowd - and had drinks for them - and that they were dancing when Harry and Ron came back in. There simply is not enough time for all of that to occur.

The situation - as presented on page - is that Hermione spent no time alone with Krum. Every time she was with him, they were surrounded by other students. They were surrounded by other students at the ball and never left the Great Hall until it was over - at which point Harry and Ron saw them in the Entrance Hall - again, surrounded by students. They were surrounded by people after the second task. They were surrounded by people at the end. The only other possibility presented for Hermione to have spent any time with Krum is in the library - which, again, would mean they were surrounded by students.

In literature, a central character's off page actions cannot be assumed or revealed by another character without evidence on page to corroborate it. Particularly when the off page actions are relevant to the plot. It just is not done in good writing. Either Jo completely dropped the ball and threw this in without giving any consideration to consistency or she has set it up very carefully to show that Ginny is making an assumption. Jo is such a good writer - and has gone on record to say that she hates the kind of writing that creates plot holes and raises unanswered questions - so it is unlikely that she would just throw something like this in without any supporting evidence in GOF.

sirena

February 1st, 2007, 3:52 pm

meesha1971

February 1st, 2007, 5:14 pm

You know, I mostly agree with your posts, especially about H/G and R/Hr, but I still think we just can't know about this, only guess. Maybe you're right, whenever we saw Hermione and Viktor (more exactly whenever Harry saw them), they were surrounded by other students. But Harry doesn't see everything. I think you're going by the logic *if it's not in the book, it never happened*. I don't exectly agree with that, because there have before been moments that just happened *out of the blue*, although never explained in the books. For example when Moody (fake) takes Harry's Marauder's map in GOF, it's never explained in the books how Harry got it back, but in OOTP he has it again. Or, we never see him talk to anyone about where his parents graves are, but in HBP he suddenly knows that they're in Godric's Hallow.

This is just the same I think. If it happened, Harry simply didn't see it. He didn't see Hermione go somewhere to meat Viktor alone. But it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. And Hermione also doesn't seem the person to snog someone in public, in front of the audience (like Harry :lol:), so it fits with her character that she did it (if she did) somewhere private. And Harry did say that his honest guess would be that she did snog Viktor, so she probably seemed to Harry as close enough with Viktor to do it.

The problem with that is the fact that Jo addressed the issue with Harry getting the map back from Moody. It was a point of confusion because she didn't explain it on page. And she publicly admitted that was a mistake and said that she should have put something on page to show that Harry went back and got the map later. I don't see her making the same mistake twice.

What makes you think Harry knows where his parent's graves are? He wants to go to Godric's Hollow because that's where it all started for him. He mentions going to their graves, which could be an indication that he is assuming their graves are in Godric's Hollow, but that's not necessarily the case. There is nothing to indicate that he actually knows where their graves are located.

I do believe that if it is not shown on page then it did not happen - particularly when it is something that becomes important to the plot or a subplot. And that has held true thus far. Even the map incident is something Jo admitted should have been on page and she apologized for not putting it there.

Jo is meticulous about that. Every revelation that has occurred to date has had evidence on page to support it. She is even meticulous about little details that are not important - like giving indication on page that they bathe and use the bathroom. Nothing significant comes out of the blue. There is always on page evidence to support it.

That's why I believe that Ginny is making an assumption. There is no evidence on page to support it and there must be in order for it to be true. There must be something in GOF to show or at least indicate that Hermione was attracted to Krum and that she had an opportunity to be making out with Krum. At least one time where Hermione was mysteriously absent and her whereabouts were questioned on page - or at least one time where she showed up disheveled and flustered, not wanting to say where she had been - or Harry seeing Hermione with Krum behaving as a couple - or a combination. Something along those lines must exist on page. Without that, the only available options are that Ginny is lying or making an assumption. The assumption is most likely because there was gossip about Hermione and Krum in GOF.

As I have said many times before - Ginny is not Hermione and cannot speak for Hermione without corroborating evidence on page. It simply is not feasible for Hermione to have been dating Krum - which is the only way she would have been making out with him - and neither Harry nor Ron notice anything unusual. The three of them spend too much time together for that to be true. If she had been dating Krum - going off in private to make out - then one of them would have noticed something and that would have been mentioned on page. There are no other options. Ginny believes it - and thinks that Harry and Ron already knew about it - but it can't be true because there is nothing on page in GOF to support her statement.

Nicole

February 1st, 2007, 5:29 pm

He wants to go to Godric's HollowThat's the killer part. Harry has never been told the name of the village where his parents were killed--at least not "on page". :shrug: That came out of the blue in HBP, just like Ginny's statement about Viktor and Hermione snogging (and, for me, Lupin and Tonks being a couple was another "out of the blue" moment).

seeker

February 1st, 2007, 5:42 pm

I wouldn't call Hermione snogging Krum a big plot point in HBP. It was one of the factors that goaded Ron into his relationship with Lavender, but that probably would have happened anyway, given that Ginny had taunted him about his lack of experience, Lavendar had showed interest in him, and he was annoyed at Hermione about Slughorn's party and about suspecting that he had had felix felicis. At most, the issue contributed to a minor comic subplot. It isn't as if its going to help Harry find the horcruxes.

If Ginny casually mentioned that Hermione had been forced to defend her home from the DE over the summer, that would be a shocking revelation that came out of nowhere. Finding out that Hermione kissed the older boy she went to the ball with two years earlier is just a detail. It doesn't demean either character: Given the time lapse, and the fact that Ginny's whole point in the discussion is that a bit of action is to be expected at their age, it makes sense that she wouldn't see it as a betrayal of trust. She isn't responsible for Ron's immature reaction. For Hermione's part, it is only natural that she kissed Krum, even without strong feelings for him. We don't condemn Ron for his much more drawn out and intense physical relationship with Lavender, why would it be a poor reflection of Hermione to have shared one kiss with a boy two years earlier?

It doesn't reflect poorly on JKR either. Hermione isn't the main character, and we aren't going to see every action she takes. Given that Krum asked Hermione to the ball without Harry or Ron knowing, it is claer that the two spent time together without Harry's knowledge. I also doubt that he asked Hermione to the ball in front of loads of people, given that that would have started the gossip mill and it would have reached Harry and Ron. Although it wouldn't be credible for Hermione to have had a serious relationship without her best friends' knowledge, it isn't much of a leap to assume that she and Krum met a few times more without Harry knowing, and that they kissed on one of these occasions.

JKR is telling us that they kissed through Ginny. She doesn't seem to want us to doubt her. While her statements in interviews are not to be taken as gospel, it does seem that what she says confirms the idea that Krum/Hermione wasn't entirely one-sided. Harry and Ron may not have been "in love," but they certainly had romantic feelings for someone else. By extension, JKR is suggesting that Hermione had those romantic feelings as well. I also don't really see how you can read her comment that Ron becomes aware that Harry and Hermione have both had some action, but he hasn't as anything but a confirmation of what Ginny said. If she intended us to doubt that, she wouldn't have said that, and that interview came post-HBP, once the shipping wars were well established.

SSJ_Jup81

February 1st, 2007, 7:20 pm

meesha1971

February 1st, 2007, 7:51 pm

That's the killer part. Harry has never been told the name of the village where his parents were killed--at least not "on page". :shrug: That came out of the blue in HBP, just like Ginny's statement about Viktor and Hermione snogging (and, for me, Lupin and Tonks being a couple was another "out of the blue" moment).

Actually, neither of those things came out of the blue. Jo put the indication on page for how Harry would know about Godric's Hollow. In PS/SS, Hermione tells him that his story is in several books about the Dark Arts. Hagrid gave him the photo album with pictures collected from his parent's friends - pictures can contain a wealth of information. At the end of OOTP, the Daily Prophet begins reporting the news of Voldemort's return and includes the history - Voldemort's previous reign of power. This continues in HBP with Jo showing that Harry is still taking the Daily Prophet and that the articles are still focused on Voldemort and Harry with the reports of him being "The Chosen One". So Harry has had access to several sources of information and we were shown on page that he at least did read - or listen to Hermione read - the articles in the Daily Prophet, which included information about him. It comes as no surprise that he would know the name of the village where his parents lived.

Lupin/Tonks was not a surprise either and certainly didn't come out of the blue. I remember it being discussed on the old Love Thread prior to HBP being released. They even gave it a name - Pink Werewolf. There were subtle clues on page in OOTP with the interaction between them. More obvious clues were given in HBP - Tonks' depression, the change in her Patronus, Molly's comment about inviting her for Christmas and Lupin being uncomfortable - particularly when Harry commented about her patronus changing. I thought that was fairly obvious myself. The clues were given on page.

That holds true for all the revelations. Once the revelation is made, you can go back and see where it happened - or where it was indicated - if you missed it when reading the first time around. Nothing ever comes completely out of the blue with no evidence to support it.

CelestLBeing

February 1st, 2007, 8:04 pm

Actually, neither of those things came out of the blue. Jo put the indication on page for how Harry would know about Godric's Hollow. In PS/SS, Hermione tells him that his story is in several books about the Dark Arts. Hagrid gave him the photo album with pictures collected from his parent's friends - pictures can contain a wealth of information. At the end of OOTP, the Daily Prophet begins reporting the news of Voldemort's return and includes the history - Voldemort's previous reign of power. This continues in HBP with Jo showing that Harry is still taking the Daily Prophet and that the articles are still focused on Voldemort and Harry with the reports of him being "The Chosen One". So Harry has had access to several sources of information and we were shown on page that he at least did read - or listen to Hermione read - the articles in the Daily Prophet, which included information about him. It comes as no surprise that he would know the name of the village where his parents lived. Lupin/Tonks was not a surprise either and certainly didn't come out of the blue. I remember it being discussed on the old Love Thread prior to HBP being released. They even gave it a name - Pink Werewolf. There were subtle clues on page in OOTP with the interaction between them. More obvious clues were given in HBP - Tonks' depression, the change in her Patronus, Molly's comment about inviting her for Christmas and Lupin being uncomfortable - particularly when Harry commented about her patronus changing. I thought that was fairly obvious myself. The clues were given on page.

Either it was 'on page' or it wasn't. It never said Godrics Hollow, and we were never shown Tonks and Lupin together. You are assuming that he got information from the daily prophet. Ginny outright told the guys that Hermione snogged Viktor. Which put it on page.
Viktor and Hermione snogging was hinted at also. So IMO it is obvious that they did. And Ginny's statement is cannon.

Yoana

February 1st, 2007, 8:08 pm

As I said before, Hermione stormed off into the crowd. She didn't leave the Great Hall. That's noted on page.

Yes, she stormes off into the crowd - that's as musch as Harry sees. Where she went after that we are not told and Harry cannot see. It's a fact that after she stormed off, they talked to Percy (no mention of Hermione's present whereabouts - so she could have moved anywhere), then went out into the garden and listened to Snape, then Hagrid. For all this time, we do not know where Hermione is or what she is doing, because it's not what Harry is thinking about.

Harry and Ron were not outside for very long - and even so there is nothing on page to show or indicate Hermione ever leaving the Great Hall.

Which doesn't mean she didn't leave it. If she had, Harry couldn't have seen her, could he, since he was in the garden. If Harry doesn't see her, there's no indication on page. But she still could have moved anywhere.

Harry notes that Hermione and Krum are in the middle of a dance when they come back inside. So we know what Hermione and Krum were doing during that time - Krum located Hermione in the crowd, they had drinks, and then resumed dancing.

Now this is not noted on page. It's speculation. The only thing that's certain is that when Harry comes in, they are dancing. For how long, since when, what they did before they started dancing - nothing on page. We can only speculate and you can believe they were there all that time and i can believe they were in a broom cupboard or side room kissing.

Nor were she and Krum alone in the Entrance Hall.

Does it say they weren't? Anyway, when Harry and Ron enter the Entrance Hall, Hermione is already there which at least proves that she's been missing from the Great Hall for some time, while Harry and Ron were discussing giants. And we don't now for how long or where she has been or what she has been doing in the Entrance Hall before Harry and Ron get there.

So, basically, Hermione and Krum were surrounded by other students the entire time.

No, they weren't. Fot these periods, there is nothing on page about their whereabouts or activities, so saying they were surrounded by other students the entire time is speculation, not fact. It's just not written anywhere.

It is also noted on page that Ron was watching Hermione with Krum. They could see the dance floor from where they were sitting because Harry is watching Cho. It is most likely that Ron continued to watch Hermione as well.

How is it likely? If he did continue, it would have been noted on page. All the time before that Ron WAS watching Hermione, was grumpy and didn't think about anything else. It was noted on page. It isn't while they're discussing giants. Plus, Harry is looking at the dancefloor - he sees Cho - but there's no mention of him seeing Hermione. If he was looking at the dancefloor, but he didn't notice Hermione dancing, then I'd say it's more likely that he couldn't see her. And since Ron was not being dilent, glaring at Hermione and Viktor, as he did all the time they were in the Great Hall before that, It's more likely that he couldn't see her either.

At the end of the book - when Krum asks Hermione if he can speak with her - Ron watches them. His height gives him an advantage there because he was able to look over the crowd. Even so, it is still a situation where Hermione and Krum were surrounded by other students. If they had been making out at that time, it would have been talked about as well.

Right - every time Ron watches Hermione with Viktor, it's noted on page. He's very interested at what they were doing. So if there's no mention of Ron glaring at them, it's more likely that they weren't within eyesight.

Basically, there are no opportunities presented where Hermione could have been making out with Krum. A quick peck is slightly possible, but nothing more.

Yes, there are. The instances when it is not written on page that Harry or Ron notice Hermione in the Great Hall, for one. When they go out in the Entrance Hall, Hermione and Viktor are already there - so they HAD been missing form the Great Hall for some time. This is on page information. Harry doesn't see them leave the Great Hall - so there are possibilities for the duration of their absence.

Hermione's meetings with Viktor after the ball (where she spoke about Harry) are another possibility. She spoke about Harry often - it means more than one meeting. And we don't really know what else they spoke about or did, we don't even know where and when they were meeting - but we know they were, and Harry wasn't even surprised at this news, so he either knew about the meetings or at the very least suspected about them.

swpoison

February 1st, 2007, 8:09 pm

I think they did because they are teenagers, no guy has been interested in her thus far and here comes this guy who is. The guy she likes has just let her know he didn't even think of her as a girl. So if good old Vicktor puckered up I'm pretty sure she let him through the gate.

In the instance there is really nothing wrong with it either. Guys kiss girls after dates all the time. I also think the term "Snogging" is a general term for kissing and does not indicate at which level. For instance if I go out on a date and kiss a girl goodnight, and go out on a date and make out with another girl and a friend ask me if I kissed either I would simply say yes to both. So "Kiss" is a general term not indicating level. In the books they seem to just use Snog instead of kiss....been trying it out myself but as my friends say .."it ain't gonna happen"

meesha1971

February 1st, 2007, 9:13 pm

Either it was 'on page' or it wasn't. It never said Godrics Hollow, and we were never shown Tonks and Lupin together. You are assuming that he got information from the daily prophet. Ginny outright told the guys that Hermione snogged Viktor. Which put it on page.
Viktor and Hermione snogging was hinted at also. So IMO it is obvious that they did. And Ginny's statement is cannon.

Ginny's statement only shows that she believes it. It is not canon that it actually happened because we don't know where she got her information. There is nothing at all on page to support the idea of Hermione making out with Krum. A chaste kiss - maybe, but not making out.

There must be at least some indication of it. We have indication of how Harry would know where his parents lived because the Daily Prophet was writing articles about him and Voldemort. We have nothing that even remotely indicates Hermione made out with Krum.

Yes, she stormes off into the crowd - that's as musch as Harry sees. Where she went after that we are not told and Harry cannot see. It's a fact that after she stormed off, they talked to Percy (no mention of Hermione's present whereabouts - so she could have moved anywhere), then went out into the garden and listened to Snape, then Hagrid. For all this time, we do not know where Hermione is or what she is doing, because it's not what Harry is thinking about.

Wasn't shown or indicated - did not happen. Hermione never left the Great Hall. She stormed off into the crowd - Krum went looking for her with drinks - they drank their drinks and resumed dancing.

It's not enough to remove Harry from the room. There must be something on page to indicate that Hermione left the Great Hall as well. Had they returned from outside and Harry noted Hermione was nowhere to be seen, then we could consider it a possibility. But the fact that Hermione was there when they left and there when they got back tells us that she never left the Great Hall.

Which doesn't mean she didn't leave it. If she had, Harry couldn't have seen her, could he, since he was in the garden. If Harry doesn't see her, there's no indication on page. But she still could have moved anywhere.

If there's no indication on page, then it did not happen. See above.

Now this is not noted on page. It's speculation. The only thing that's certain is that when Harry comes in, they are dancing. For how long, since when, what they did before they started dancing - nothing on page. We can only speculate and you can believe they were there all that time and i can believe they were in a broom cupboard or side room kissing.

That is indicated on page. Hermione stormed off into the crowd - Krum showed up with drinks and went to look for her. They drank the drinks and resumed dancing. That is all that is indicated - that is all that happened.

Does it say they weren't? Anyway, when Harry and Ron enter the Entrance Hall, Hermione is already there which at least proves that she's been missing from the Great Hall for some time, while Harry and Ron were discussing giants. And we don't now for how long or where she has been or what she has been doing in the Entrance Hall before Harry and Ron get there.

Yes, it does. The band stopped at midnight and everyone headed out into the Entrance Hall - that includes Hermione and Krum. They got out in the hall before Harry and Ron, but so did other students. They were not alone and they had not been there for very long.

No, they weren't. Fot these periods, there is nothing on page about their whereabouts or activities, so saying they were surrounded by other students the entire time is speculation, not fact. It's just not written anywhere.

Yes, it is. They never left the Great Hall. They were surrounded by students there. They were not alone in the Entrance Hall because everyone left the Great Hall at the same time - they were surrounded by other students. Hermione is not the only student who uses the library so there were other students there - as well as Madame Pince, who is always there. And Krum was followed by his fan club wherever he went - specifically noted on page. They were not alone after the second task - the entire school was present and watching - not to mention Rita Skeeter in beetle form.

Basically, we have all this information telling us that they were never alone and nothing that even remotely indicates that they ever were alone for any period of time. Nothing is indicated on page - nothing happened.

How is it likely? If he did continue, it would have been noted on page. All the time before that Ron WAS watching Hermione, was grumpy and didn't think about anything else. It was noted on page. It isn't while they're discussing giants. Plus, Harry is looking at the dancefloor - he sees Cho - but there's no mention of him seeing Hermione. If he was looking at the dancefloor, but he didn't notice Hermione dancing, then I'd say it's more likely that he couldn't see her. And since Ron was not being dilent, glaring at Hermione and Viktor, as he did all the time they were in the Great Hall before that, It's more likely that he couldn't see her either.

It's noted on page that she was there when they returned and nothing is noted to indicate that she ever left so we know that she did not leave until everyone else left at midnight - when it is noted on page that everyone left. It is also noted on page that they could see the dance floor because Harry was trying not to look at Cho too much.

Right - every time Ron watches Hermione with Viktor, it's noted on page. He's very interested at what they were doing. So if there's no mention of Ron glaring at them, it's more likely that they weren't within eyesight.

That is incorrect. See above.

Yes, there are. The instances when it is not written on page that Harry or Ron notice Hermione in the Great Hall, for one. When they go out in the Entrance Hall, Hermione and Viktor are already there - so they HAD been missing form the Great Hall for some time. This is on page information. Harry doesn't see them leave the Great Hall - so there are possibilities for the duration of their absence.

That is incorrect. See above. Everyone left the Great Hall at midnight.

Hermione's meetings with Viktor after the ball (where she spoke about Harry) are another possibility. She spoke about Harry often - it means more than one meeting. And we don't really know what else they spoke about or did, we don't even know where and when they were meeting - but we know they were, and Harry wasn't even surprised at this news, so he either knew about the meetings or at the very least suspected about them.

Krum never mentions any meetings with Hermione. He just says that Hermione talks about Harry often. All that tells us is, the little time they did get to see each other, Hermione chose to talk about Harry - they were not making out. From what is revealed on page, the only place they could have seen each other was the library because that is the only time that Hermione is not with Harry and Ron - unless Krum went to class with her. Either way, they were not alone. Krum was followed around by his fan club wherever he went. The only time Hermione was not with Harry and Ron was the two classes she has without them, the library, and sleeping. Oh, and the time she went to speak with Moody to see if he saw Rita after the second task.

As much as we might have enjoyed Hermione having a previous relationship, the fact is that Jo simply did not write it that way. Hermione didn't date Krum or make out with him any more than Ron dated Padma or made out with her. She went to the ball with him, had a nice time, and only wanted to be friends with him. She might have allowed a quick peck the night of the ball, but that was the extent of it. And even that is debatable because there's nothing to indicate it.

HedwigOwl

February 2nd, 2007, 4:50 am

It's the lack of consistency that makes this issue so suspicious. She makes a comment that "everyone" is in love with the wrong person, but that is not reflected on page.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. JKR has given a quote in interview that says everyone was falling in love with the wrong person. This includes Hermione.

We've got 2 sources of canon, the books and JKR's words. JKR said it, therefore Hermione is included as one "falling in love with the wrong person" --- Krum. Hermione obviously kissed Krum and meant it at the time. The fact that she later realizes that Ron may have similar feelings for her that she has for him does not alter the fact that JKR has her in a romantic relationship with someone else.

meesha1971

February 2nd, 2007, 1:35 pm

Sorry, but I have to disagree. JKR has given a quote in interview that says everyone was falling in love with the wrong person. This includes Hermione.

We've got 2 sources of canon, the books and JKR's words. JKR said it, therefore Hermione is included as one "falling in love with the wrong person" --- Krum. Hermione obviously kissed Krum and meant it at the time. The fact that she later realizes that Ron may have similar feelings for her that she has for him does not alter the fact that JKR has her in a romantic relationship with someone else.

First off, she said "in love" - not "falling in love". And, as I said before, it's not reflected on page. It was not everyone - it was just Harry. Hermione wasn't even attracted to Krum - let along "falling in love". Jo was having fun with it and joking around. Everyone went to the ball with the wrong person, but nobody was "in love".

And that's not the first time Jo has made a mistake in an interview discussing something that happened in the books. She made a mistake regarding Charlie's age. She made a mistake in saying that Ron thought prefects couldn't take points because that's how the question was framed. However, it was not Ron who said that - it was Ernie.

“It’s only teachers who can dock points from houses, Malfoy,” said Ernie at once.

In this case, I'm going with what is shown in the book. Hermione might have allowed a quick peck the night of the ball, but she was not making out with Krum. She wasn't attracted to him romantically and there was no opportunity for her to be making out with anyone. I can't even find a reference in GOF to support that she spent any time with Krum beyond a few minutes in the library - and I can only find one that comes close for that - and after the second task. Basically, every time they were together, they were in public with other people around.

It would have been nice, but it just didn't happen. Maybe a quick peck the night of the ball - but even that is hard to work out because they were never alone. There was definitely no making out.

Yoana

February 2nd, 2007, 2:26 pm

Wasn't shown or indicated - did not happen. Hermione never left the Great Hall. She stormed off into the crowd - Krum went looking for her with drinks - they drank their drinks and resumed dancing.

Then they did not drink their drinks, because it's not shown on page. Hermione didn't tell Ginny what Sirius told Harry in OotP in the summer, because it was not on page. And plenty other things. And if you believe that, you'll have to admit that Ron DOES NOT see Hermione while he's in the corner discussing giants, because such a notice on his part is not shown, nor indicated.

It's not enough to remove Harry from the room. There must be something on page to indicate that Hermione left the Great Hall as well. Had they returned from outside and Harry noted Hermione was nowhere to be seen, then we could consider it a possibility. But the fact that Hermione was there when they left and there when they got back tells us that she never left the Great Hall.

No, it doesn not tell us she didn't leave the Great Hall. If there was a note "Hermione was nowhere to be seen", it would be conspicuous, wouldn't it. And it shouldn't be conspicuous. Not shown on page still leaves a possibility open, and if it did happen, we could go back to the the time of the ball and say, yes, here there's no indication of Hermione's whereabouts, so this could be the time it happened.

If there's no indication on page, then it did not happen. See above.

Not true. There are no indications for so many things that did happen. There is no indication that Tonks has ever had any discussion with Remus, we never see them together alone, it's not even hinted that they ahve been alone together, but at the end of the book we assume they must have been, even though there was no indication. Same with Ginny meeting Michael Corner - she is not shown talking to another guy during the ball, she is not shown missing, none of her brothers are shown suspicious of her actions or absence - and in OotP we suddenly realise she has been having a boyfriend. It was not indicated, but it did happen. There is no indication of Viktor actually approaching Hermione in the library, but we know that's where he asked her to the ball. The actual proposal was not shown, nor indicated, but it did happen.

We have been shown numerous times that stuff has happened off page without any indication before the actual revelation.

That is indicated on page. Hermione stormed off into the crowd - Krum showed up with drinks and went to look for her. They drank the drinks and resumed dancing. That is all that is indicated - that is all that happened.

Where is it indicated that they actually drink their drinks? They are not shown drinking, therefore they did not drink, according to your formula "not shown or indicated 0 not happened". They could have given up their drinks, or spilled them or whatever. Saying that they drank them is speculation. It's possible, but not indicated. It's not on page.

Yes, it does. The band stopped at midnight and everyone headed out into the Entrance Hall - that includes Hermione and Krum. They got out in the hall before Harry and Ron, but so did other students. They were not alone and they had not been there for very long.

Everyone - that's everyone who's IN the Great Hall at the time the band stops playing, not everyone in the school. I think this is plain enough.

Yes, it is. They never left the Great Hall. They were surrounded by students there.

This is not shown or said on page. Therefore speculation.

They were not alone in the Entrance Hall because everyone left the Great Hall at the same time - they were surrounded by other students.

Yeah, but before everyone got out? Everyone who WAS in the Great Hall at the time the band stopped playing, that is.

That is incorrect. See above.

I'm sorry, but according to your own formula, since Ron was not shown on page to be looking at Hermione, then he wasn't looking at her. Right?

So, why wasn't he looking at her, when we have been shown that he's always glaring at her when she's around? Perhaps because she left at a certain point while Harry and he were discussing giants.

That is incorrect. See above. Everyone left the Great Hall at midnight.

Everyone who was in the Great Hall at the time.

Krum never mentions any meetings with Hermione. He just says that Hermione talks about Harry often. All that tells us is, the little time they did get to see each other, Hermione chose to talk about Harry - they were not making out.

Well, it doesn't say anywhere that that's ALL they were doing. She talked about HArry often - not all the time.

From what is revealed on page, the only place they could have seen each other was the library because that is the only time that Hermione is not with Harry and Ron - unless Krum went to class with her.

I'm sorry, but just because Hermione is not shown to go elsewhere it doesn't mean she didn't. No one is ever shown going to the bathroom (except Ron after a Quidditch match) - does that mean they don't take showers? Or that Hermione never sends owls?

Either way, they were not alone. Krum was followed around by his fan club wherever he went. The only time Hermione was not with Harry and Ron was the two classes she has without them, the library, and sleeping. Oh, and the time she went to speak with Moody to see if he saw Rita after the second task.

And showers. I think we can safely assume she does take these, even though it's not shown or indicated on page.

Not all of her activities are shown on page and that leaves possibilities for later revelations. If it does turn out that they kissed, we could be able to go back to GoF and say, "Then she did meet him, at weekends or evenings, when Harry and Ron are training or in their dormitory" or "Then she really wasn't in the Great Hall while Harry and Ron were in the corner." There will be no "But she was in the Great Hall at that time, Ron was looking at her all the time!" or "But Harry said Hermione never left the Great Hall, never!" There will be no contradiction, because spaces were left, whether you choose to recognise them or not.

And just to add a question - why would JK Rowling say "everyone" if she meant only ONE person? It doesn't make sense. This is not a mistake, you can't be thinking of only one person and say "everyone" - there's just no logic to it.

sirena

February 2nd, 2007, 3:39 pm

I don't think it really matters if they kissed or not. True or not, the kiss served it's purpose. After Ginny so *gently* :lol: spit it out, it finally dawned on Ron that everyone had some action, except him, and he got angry at Hermione etc... But, he grew out of it. I'm sure that if we asked him right now if it still bothers him, the answer would be no.

I don't believe we'll ever get the answer to that question on page, it will have to be JKR to answer it, just for the sake of her fans curiosity.

meesha1971

February 2nd, 2007, 5:13 pm

Then they did not drink their drinks, because it's not shown on page. Hermione didn't tell Ginny what Sirius told Harry in OotP in the summer, because it was not on page. And plenty other things. And if you believe that, you'll have to admit that Ron DOES NOT see Hermione while he's in the corner discussing giants, because such a notice on his part is not shown, nor indicated.

Having drinks is indicated on page twice. Hermione tells Ron and Harry that Viktor has gone to get drinks and Viktor shows up carrying drinks. You've lost me on Hermione telling Ginny what Sirius told Harry - no idea what you're talking about there. Unless you're talking about them allowing Harry, Ron, Hermione and the twins stay and ask questions while Ginny was sent to bed? If that is the case, then that is also indicated on page with the twins speculating that Ginny would still be awake because she wanted to know too.

It has to be shown or indicated on page in order for the reader to take it into consideration. There are lots of ways to indicate something on page. We know that Ron was watching Hermione and Krum earlier because that is directly shown. It is indicated that he continued to watch her because it is noted on page that they could see the dance floor and Harry was trying not to watch Cho. That makes it likely that Ron was still watching Hermione.

No, it doesn not tell us she didn't leave the Great Hall. If there was a note "Hermione was nowhere to be seen", it would be conspicuous, wouldn't it. And it shouldn't be conspicuous. Not shown on page still leaves a possibility open, and if it did happen, we could go back to the the time of the ball and say, yes, here there's no indication of Hermione's whereabouts, so this could be the time it happened.

Yes, it does. She was there when they went out - still there when they came back. That tells us that she never left. Not shown or remotely indicated on page means that it did not happen. The possibility would only be open if there was a conspicious mention of Hermione not being present. That is a requirement.

We have the same thing with Ron and Lavender in HBP. Lavender flirted with Ron - shown on page. Ron was flattered by that - indicated on page. Ron made out with Lavender - shown on page several times. Lavender initiated the public snogging - indicated on page. The same with Harry and Cho in OOTP. Harry had a crush on Cho - shown on page. Cho was interested in Harry - indicated on page. Cho snogged Harry - indicated on page.

There is no reason for a previous relationship for Hermione to be hidden. Nothing is shown or even remotely indicated on page to support the assumption that Hermione was involved with Krum romantically. Everyone else's relationships have been shown on page. The only reason not to show anything for Hermione is if there is nothing to show.

Not true. There are no indications for so many things that did happen. There is no indication that Tonks has ever had any discussion with Remus, we never see them together alone, it's not even hinted that they ahve been alone together, but at the end of the book we assume they must have been, even though there was no indication. Same with Ginny meeting Michael Corner - she is not shown talking to another guy during the ball, she is not shown missing, none of her brothers are shown suspicious of her actions or absence - and in OotP we suddenly realise she has been having a boyfriend. It was not indicated, but it did happen. There is no indication of Viktor actually approaching Hermione in the library, but we know that's where he asked her to the ball. The actual proposal was not shown, nor indicated, but it did happen.

There were a lot of clues regarding Lupin and Tonks. However, they are secondary characters so a different set of rules apply there. It was enough to indicate that Tonks was depressed because of Lupin and to indicate that Molly was trying to get them together and to indicate that Lupin was uncomfortable discussing Tonks. The same applies for Ginny.

The difference in those situations is that Harry spends very little time with Lupin. He has no means or opportunity to observe Lupin on a regular basis. The same holds true with Ginny up to HBP because Harry paid very little attention to her. She's not even in the same year so he doesn't see her during classes.

That is not the case with Ron and Hermione. Harry spends nearly all of his time with them and they are central characters in the story. As such, any off page action by them that is going to be important in any way to the plot or even a subplot must be shown or indicated on page.

For example - Ron trying out for Quidditch in OOTP. Not significant to the overall plot, but significant to Ron's character development. We are given clues from the time that they return to school that Ron is hiding something and clues that it has to do with Quidditch. He just got a new broom so it is obvious that Ron is planning on trying out for Quidditch. When Harry catches him and Ron admits that, it is not a surprise. The same holds true for Hermione. SPEW - vendetta against Rita - the time turner - and so on. All of those things were indicated on page because they had to be. Ron and Hermione are central characters.

In order for the reader to believe that Hermione left the Great Hall during the ball, there must be something on page to indicate that she did. We have the opposite. All evidence points to Hermione staying in the Great Hall for the duration and leaving with everyone else at midnight. Harry leaving the room doesn't cut it because it is noted that she's there before they go out and it is noted that she's still there when they come back. She never left. The only way for the reader to assume Hermione left the Great Hall would be for her absence to be noted.

We have been shown numerous times that stuff has happened off page without any indication before the actual revelation.

Name one involving central character.

Where is it indicated that they actually drink their drinks? They are not shown drinking, therefore they did not drink, according to your formula "not shown or indicated 0 not happened". They could have given up their drinks, or spilled them or whatever. Saying that they drank them is speculation. It's possible, but not indicated. It's not on page.

See above.

Everyone - that's everyone who's IN the Great Hall at the time the band stops playing, not everyone in the school. I think this is plain enough.

That's everyone who went to the ball and includes Hermione and Krum. Very plain.

This is not shown or said on page. Therefore speculation.

Nope. That is shown. Everyone left the Great Hall - including Hermione and Krum - at midnight and went into the Entrance Hall. That is directly stated on page. Cedric and Cho are specifically mentioned as being in the Great Hall.

Yeah, but before everyone got out? Everyone who WAS in the Great Hall at the time the band stopped playing, that is.

They left the Great Hall at midnight along with everyone else - specifically noted on page.

I'm sorry, but according to your own formula, since Ron was not shown on page to be looking at Hermione, then he wasn't looking at her. Right?

It is indicated. See above.

So, why wasn't he looking at her, when we have been shown that he's always glaring at her when she's around? Perhaps because she left at a certain point while Harry and he were discussing giants.

If she had left, it would have been noted on page. There is nothing that even remotely indicates she ever left. Therefore, she did not leave until midnight - when everyone left.

Well, it doesn't say anywhere that that's ALL they were doing. She talked about HArry often - not all the time.

Enough to make Krum think that she was interested in Harry. So it is obvious that she was not making out with Krum. Otherwise, he would not have been concerned.

I'm sorry, but just because Hermione is not shown to go elsewhere it doesn't mean she didn't. No one is ever shown going to the bathroom (except Ron after a Quidditch match) - does that mean they don't take showers? Or that Hermione never sends owls?

It's not shown or even remotely indicated so, therefore, she did not leave. There is indication on page - as well as references directly shown - that the students bathe and use the bathrooms. There is indication on page that they send owls. There is nothing to indicate that Hermione ever left the Great Hall during the ball until midnight when everyone left.

And showers. I think we can safely assume she does take these, even though it's not shown or indicated on page.

It is indicated on page. Along with using the bathroom. I discussed this before and there are loads of on page indications that these things occur.

Not all of her activities are shown on page and that leaves possibilities for later revelations. If it does turn out that they kissed, we could be able to go back to GoF and say, "Then she did meet him, at weekends or evenings, when Harry and Ron are training or in their dormitory" or "Then she really wasn't in the Great Hall while Harry and Ron were in the corner." There will be no "But she was in the Great Hall at that time, Ron was looking at her all the time!" or "But Harry said Hermione never left the Great Hall, never!" There will be no contradiction, because spaces were left, whether you choose to recognise them or not.

Sorry, but that doesn't work. Harry leaving the room shows nothing except that Harry left the room. In order to show that Hermione left the room, there must be something to indicate it. She's gone when Harry gets back - she mentions it - etc...

In order for the reader to believe that Hermione was making out with Krum, there must be something on page to indicate that she did. Mysterious absences questioned by Ron and/or Harry - Hermione showing up disheveled and getting flustered when they ask her where she was - Harry spotting Hermione and Krum coming out of an empty classroom. Something must be present on page to indicate that it happened. Instead we're directly shown that she was not attracted to Krum romantically - that she talked about Harry when she was with Krum - that she ignored him and brushed him off when he confessed his feelings.

She didn't make out with him. Maybe a quick peck the night of the ball - unlikely, but possible - but definitely no making out.

And just to add a question - why would JK Rowling say "everyone" if she meant only ONE person? It doesn't make sense. This is not a mistake, you can't be thinking of only one person and say "everyone" - there's just no logic to it.

So who is she talking about? She wasn't talking about Ron - he wasn't in love with Fleur or Padma - didn't even have a crush on them. He was affected by Fleur's Veela powers and went to the ball with Padma. She wasn't talking about Ginny. She wasn't in love with Neville - she just went to the ball with him. She wasn't talking about Hermione - she wasn't even attracted to Krum - let alone in love with him. Krum could technically be included since it was shown that he did have feelings for Hermione.

So, basically, "everyone's in love with the wrong person" can only apply to Harry and Krum because they were the only characters shown to have any kind of romantic feelings. I think she was just talking about the fact that they all went to the ball with the wrong people. She was having fun with it and didn't realize that people would someday be picking apart every little word she said. She became much more cautious about that kind of thing later on.

SSJ_Jup81

February 2nd, 2007, 5:51 pm

I don't think it really matters if they kissed or not. Nope...now if they dated, that's a whole different story. :pI don't believe we'll ever get the answer to that question on page, it will have to be JKR to answer it, just for the sake of her fans curiosity.I think we might get some type of an answer since, in a way, it probably does have to be resolved in general. I think it's important (for that subplot) for Hermione to know why Ron had gotten upset with her in the first place. It probably will be mentioned in book 7; I keep forgetting that books 6 and 7 are technically supposed to be one book, so the story isn't finished yet.

Blossom

February 2nd, 2007, 6:15 pm

seekre: It's the way that it was said that has me suspicious (referring to Ginny). To me, she's implying that the two dated or had an actual romantic relationship despite the fact that Hermione said they were friends. "Snogging" is usually associated with actual couples, as it's pretty much equivilant to "making out". All the instances shown of "snogging" has been with couples making out. British posters even said that the way JKR used the term and showed it in HBP is pretty much the typical way it's used. Usually, with most anything, JKR hints at it in the text. Even if Harry wasn't around to relay it, there still should be something in GoF wihch shows it. It's not often (seemingly) that we get the revelation prior to the actual clue.

It's not a big deal if they kissed; they probably did, but, I don't think the two "snogged" because of the fact that the two weren't dating and if they did, it would've been extremely difficult to hide.

I'm sorry, I don't know who's said snogging is something only couples do but it's completely wrong. Snogging is just having a long kiss, usually with tongues. 12 year-olds arrange to do it behind bike sheds and in a horribley unromantic way its pre-arranged 'uh...want to snog me this lunch time' 'yeah ok..' (i really do hate the British youth).

It's never implied that Hermione and Krum were a couple, they were just spending time together and it's clear that Krum fancied Hermione, and she probably had a bit of something for him seeing as this is the first time she's received male attention and he's famous too, which helps...

I think it is certainly implied however that they kissed, and by kissed i mean snogged. a peck on the cheek is nothing to be bothered about and certainly isn't at all interesting reading. For those who didn't pick up on the subtext that indicated kissing might have taken place in GoF, then Harry's suspicions in HBP that they kissed, should be enough for readers to conclude that they did. A) because Harry knows Hermione pretty darn well and because B) Rowling isn't going to waste our time with Harry's suspicions if she knew they weren't true. It would be utterly pointless.

And if that's not enough, we're talking about teenagers here, a handshake is not a satisfactory departing gift.

HedwigOwl

February 2nd, 2007, 6:44 pm

First off, she said "in love" - not "falling in love". And, as I said before, it's not reflected on page. It would have been nice, but it just didn't happen. Maybe a quick peck the night of the ball - but even that is hard to work out because they were never alone. There was definitely no making out.

As I said in my previous post, we have 2 sources of canon, the books and JKR. Here is yet another quote where JKR tells us that Hermione did indeed get some action with Krum. (bolding is mine)
"Because of the demands of the adventure that Harry is following, he has had less sexual experience than boys of his age might have had," Rowling allows. "But I really wanted my heroes to grow up. Ron's hormones get fuller play in book six." Cue the throaty alto laughter. "Basically it dawns on Ron that Hermione's had some action, Harry's had some action and he's never got close!"

SSJ_Jup81

February 2nd, 2007, 6:51 pm

I'm sorry, I don't know who's said snogging is something only couples do but it's completely wrong. Snogging is just having a long kiss, usually with tongues.And it's something that most "couples" do, not mere acquaintances or friends, unless it's a "friend with benefits".It's never implied that Hermione and Krum were a couple, they were just spending time together and it's clear that Krum fancied Hermione, and she probably had a bit of something for him seeing as this is the first time she's received male attention and he's famous too, which helps...I never said that it was implied; I said that they came across that way through Viktor's actions and words. He confessed his true feelings to the girl and invited him to his home. It's easy for one to assume that something was going (or may have gone) on between them in a romantic sense for him to have those types of feelings and to confess them so eagerly. I was joking earlier, with that "I've never felt anything for anyone else" line (or whatever it was), seemed like a borderline proposal since that sounds like something a guy would say before proposing to a girl.I think it is certainly implied however that they kissed, and by kissed i mean snogged. a peck on the cheek is nothing to be bothered about and certainly isn't at all interesting reading.Who cares if it's interesting or not. For all we know, it could've been something like a peck on the cheek or a goodnight kiss after the ball, or a kiss before the ball, or whatever. To be honest, I don't feel that there's much of anything in GoF to even imply the had the opportunity to spend much time together.For those who didn't pick up on the subtext that indicated kissing might have taken place in GoF, then Harry's suspicions in HBP that they kissed, should be enough for readers to conclude that they did. A) because Harry knows Hermione pretty darn well and becauseYeah he does know her, but who says he understands her? Harry's reasons for why Hermione may like Viktor shows how he doesn't understand her. Hermione likes Ron, and the stuff Harry mentioned about Viktor, doesn't remotely describe Ron at all, or can't be applied to him.B) Rowling isn't going to waste our time with Harry's suspicions if she knew they weren't true. It would be utterly pointless.I don't see how it would be pointless. It would just show that Harry, like Ginny, made an assumption that could possibly not be true (like in the past). It could go either way, to be honest, but it wouldn't be pointless since JKR had to do something to get Ron to react. Remember, not all of the storylines in the series have to revolve around Harry. All stories have subplots, and the Ron x Hermione situation is one of the ongoing ones.And if that's not enough, we're talking about teenagers here, a handshake is not a satisfactory departing gift.Why not? They're friends; Hermione said so. I know I wouldn't "snog" a friend, especially if I know how he feels and if I didn't feel that way fully back. That'd be leading him on. I'm also sick of that "they're teenagers" argument since, imo, that should be irrelevant. Not all teenagers are like that.

seeker

February 2nd, 2007, 6:54 pm

Meesha, I think at this point you're just inventing rules of literature and expecting JKR to follow them. Where do we get the rule that every action by a main, non POV character needs to be shown on page in order to be mentioned later on? Even if this were a hard and fast literary convention, JKR isn't perfect, and there is no reason to believe that she couldn't have violated it. Personally, I think it is a more established literary rule that characters actions need to display some internal logic, yet then we have the fact that Harry, two years after Voldemort's return, a year after the disasterous DoM incident, still has no idea how to contact the order in a pinch. Or that Dumbeldore is so concerned about the safety of Jr. DE Draco Malfoy that he doesn't confront him or monitor him more closely even after Katie Bell and Ron Weasley have almost died because of him. Or that Harry, after six years of not asking the most basic questions about his parents (what did they do for a living? how did they defy Voldemort three times? Hey, Sirius, tell me a story about you and my dad at school. So, Remus, how did my parents get together in the end?), he decides to begin his save the world quest at the family home he's never canonically heard named for the vague reason that "that's where it all began for me."

My point is, I love these books, but JKR isn't the best writer who ever lived. Even if we accept the dubious premise that Hermione's obvious embarassment about the whole Krum issue, Ron's jealousy, their canonical date and other canon-implied meetings have not adequately prepared the reader for the "revelation" that two teenagers shared a real kiss, it is quite possible that Rowling just got to HBP, said "Hmm... how can I make Ron mad enough at Hermione to date Lavender?" and decided to throw in that detail to push him over the edge.

I remember in the old Sibling Theory threads you (and I, and others) always argued against the pro-sibbers improbable contention that JKR responding that "no" to the question "does Hermione have any siblings" still allowed for ST because she might have been referring only to the scrapped Granger sister and not to Harry. But you are doing something similar here. In at least two interviews, at least one of which was after HBP and after JKR was aware of ship wars, JKR said something to strongly suggest that Hermione and Krum had some romantic involvement beyond the Ball. I'm not saying she was Krum's girlfriend, or that it was deep and abiding love, but taken together, I think it is safe to say that the author confirms some relationship. I can give you that JKR's "everyone is in love with the wrong people" comment was flippant and ill-thought out, although even that suggests that Hermione is interested in Krum, just as Harry is in Cho and Ron is in Fleur. But I can't accept that "Ron realizes that Hermione has had some action" doesn't suggest that there was a kiss. She doesn't say "Ron believes" or "thinks" that Hermione has had some action, but that he "realizes" it. That pretty clearly implies that he was correct in trusting Ginny.

I also don't buy your certainty that Hermione and Krum couldn't possibly have had time to kiss. First of all, while your explanation of why it is unlikely that it occurred during the Yule Ball makes sense, I'm not sure how closely JKR was scrutinizing the time line. Just as when readers asked how Harry got the map back, JKR just said that she expected us to realize that he would find a way to get into Moody's office a nick it back (and this is the POV character, remember), I bet if you asked her about this she would say something like "I'm sure they found their moment while Ron was away." Ron was watching them, but he isn't a stalker and he was canonically absent for part of the Ball.

However, I think it is quite possible they kissed on another occasion. The timeline of the book doesn't support the idea that their "relationship" was over by the end of the Ball. The Ball is at Christmas. The second Task is on February 24th, a full two months later. If Hermione had made it clear that she didn't return Krum's affections and they hadn't met alone since then, Krum would have to be very shallow indeed for her to be the thing he would miss most. How could he miss her if they never saw each other anyway?

Then, it isn't until May 27 (according to the Lexicon), that the champions meet to discuss the third task. It is that day that Krum asks what there is between Harry and Hermione. He says that Hermione talks about Harry often. Now we're talking about FIVE MONTHS after the Yule Ball. There are "serious" high school relationships that don't last that long. There is no way that Krum, on the basis of a few library chats with Hermione and a single date, feels strongly enough about her to confront Harry about her this long after the fact. There is also the question of when Hermione is talking to him. Hermione talks to Krum about Harry "often." That would be a bit hard to accomplish if she and Krum never communicated, don't you think? Then, in OotP, Hermione is still writing to Krum, or at least she's communicated with him once or twice. To me, this all sounds like they knew each other well enough to have ample opportunity to kiss.

None of this makes Hermione a bad person, or interferes with her character. To have kissed him once doesn't mean she led him on or felt deeply about him, it means that she was a typical 14 year old just a bit star-struck by an older sports star who shows interest in her. Remember, this is the same girl who only two years earlier had mooned over the incompetent pretty boy Lockhart. She has matured since then, and isn't about to become one of Krum's foolish fangirls. But she would have to be inhuman to be completely impervious to Krum's advances.

Blossom

February 2nd, 2007, 7:05 pm

Who cares if it's interesting or not. For all we know, it could've been something like a peck on the cheek or a goodnight kiss after the ball, or a kiss before the ball, or whatever.

The audience cares if it's interesting. Don't forget it is a book, and bringing up ideas that lead nowhere is not how you write childrens fiction. and a goodnight kiss isn't 'kiss' really, that's just like a pat on the head.

Basically, we're all free to decide what we want, but I think those of you who are convinced Herminone never kissed Krum are very naive.

HedwigOwl

February 2nd, 2007, 7:07 pm

Why not? They're friends; Hermione said so. I know I wouldn't "snog" a friend, especially if I know how he feels and if I didn't feel that way fully back.
A valid point, but then again we don't know at what point they became friends versus a dating couple.

You may have missed the quote I posted below where JKR tells us that it dawns on Ron that both Hermione and Harry have "had some action". JKR's telling us it happened.

"Because of the demands of the adventure that Harry is following, he has had less sexual experience than boys of his age might have had," Rowling allows. "But I really wanted my heroes to grow up. Ron's hormones get fuller play in book six." Cue the throaty alto laughter. "Basically it dawns on Ron that Hermione's had some action, Harry's had some action and he's never got close!"

SSJ_Jup81

February 2nd, 2007, 7:23 pm

The audience cares if it's interesting. Don't forget it is a book, and bringing up ideas that lead nowhere is not how you write childrens fiction. and a goodnight kiss isn't 'kiss' really, that's just like a pat on the head.I don't get why people would care, to be honest. A "goodnight kiss" is still a kiss. Given how it was implied that Viktor is a gentleman (and a bit shy) is another reason why I couldn't see him "snogging" her in the sense that JKR showed it when using others as examples.Basically, we're all free to decide what we want, but I think those of you who are convinced Herminone never kissed Krum are very naive.I never said that, and neither did Meesha. Both of us believe that those two kissed, just not on the level Ginny is implying it. The way she's going on is like the two were dating at some point, and that's what I don't believe.A valid point, but then again we don't know at what point they became friends versus a dating couple.See, I never got the impression they dated because there's nothing hinting to it in GoF for that to happen aside from the ball, unless she was meeting Viktor during her library visits. Remember, Hermione spends too much time with Harry and Ron for them to not notice her doing something out of the ordinary or differently. The only way she could see Viktor, as in dating, is if she was doing so during times when she'd be normally absent, but even then, I couldn't see her sneaking around, and being able to keep something that major secret. Someone should've gotten word on that.You may have missed the quote I posted below where JKR tells us that it dawns on Ron that both Hermione and Harry have "had some action". JKR's telling us it happened.

"Because of the demands of the adventure that Harry is following, he has had less sexual experience than boys of his age might have had," Rowling allows. "But I really wanted my heroes to grow up. Ron's hormones get fuller play in book six." Cue the throaty alto laughter. "Basically it dawns on Ron that Hermione's had some action, Harry's had some action and he's never got close!"
Yeah, I made a comment on that, just don't remember what. I'm not saying it's not true or anything, nor am I refuting it since I believe it did. Remember, I do believe Hermione and Viktor shared a kiss. Whether it's one or two, casual or intimate, I believe they kisssed. That still means that Hermione's had more action that Ron because he'd never kissed anyone before. It could've been a mutual goodnight kiss or something, that'd still mean Ron is still leftout in this regard and inexperienced in comparison. I still don't believe they "snogged", and just shared an innocent kiss with one another for reasons I already mentioned.

Yoana

February 2nd, 2007, 7:56 pm

Meesha, with all due respet, I think having this particular argument with you is pointless, because, in my view, you're just being stubborn. And yes, it is an argument - "yes, it does - no, it doesn't - yes, it does - etc."

I'll only repply where I won't be repeating myself.

Name one involving central character.

Thank you, seeker - how Harry retrieved the map from Moody's office in GoF. Plus, if you follow your rule, you'll have to give up the idea that Ginny overheard Viktor asking Hermione to the ball, because it's not indicated on page. Same with the supposed overhearing about the brooms Ginny practiced on. Not indicated or even hinted at an overhearing in these two cases. You'll just have to choose one way, you can't have both.

That's everyone who went to the ball and includes Hermione and Krum. Very plain.

A room is usually left by everyone who's inside the room. In a normal sentence including "everyone" and "leftb the room", everyone normally refers to everyone present in that room.

Sorry, but that doesn't work. Harry leaving the room shows nothing except that Harry left the room.

It also indicates that he leaves Hermione out of his sight. It indicates that from then on he can no longer see what she is doing. Other characters don't just freeze when Harry lets them out of his sight.

So who is she talking about? She wasn't talking about Ron - he wasn't in love with Fleur or Padma - didn't even have a crush on them. He was affected by Fleur's Veela powers and went to the ball with Padma. She wasn't talking about Ginny. She wasn't in love with Neville - she just went to the ball with him. She wasn't talking about Hermione - she wasn't even attracted to Krum - let alone in love with him. Krum could technically be included since it was shown that he did have feelings for Hermione.

So, basically, "everyone's in love with the wrong person" can only apply to Harry and Krum because they were the only characters shown to have any kind of romantic feelings. I think she was just talking about the fact that they all went to the ball with the wrong people. She was having fun with it and didn't realize that people would someday be picking apart every little word she said. She became much more cautious about that kind of thing later on.

You still didn't answer my question - WHY would she say "everyone" if she meant just Harry?

Last question - how Harry seeing Cho is an indication of Ron looking at Hermione?

Seeker, a fantastic post, and although I know it wasn't meant that way, thank you very much for the support, i felt it as such.

LeiaShadow

February 2nd, 2007, 8:08 pm

I think that Hermione must have been a bit confused about her feelings when Victor Krum asked her to the Yule Ball. I think that she might not have been sure whether she was "in love" with him or not, but at least wanted to give it a shot--I doubt she'd been asked out by a boy before (no offense, Hermione). I say all these things from personal experience. But I think it is very possible for Victor, in the middle of the ball and when Harry and Ron are off listening to Hagrid talk about his giantess mother to Madame Maxime, to kiss Hermione, and for Hermione to return the kiss. (It would be, for all we know, her first kiss.) This would explain how Ginny knew about it--Neville took her to the ball.

This is how I feel about it. I highly doubt that Ginny was guessing or something when she shouted at Ron that Hermione had "snogged" Krum. There is no doubt, in my mind, that Hermione kissed Krum (or the other way around, if you prefer).

Nicole

February 2nd, 2007, 8:27 pm

Name one involving central character.Harry retrieves the Marauder's Map. Harry knows the name "Godric's Hollow" though it's never been mentioned to him by anyone; he knows not only the name, but that it's where his parents were killed and buried. Ron knowing all about the Hand of Glory. There, that's at least 3 instances of major characters knowing/doing something that wasn't shown on page.

DumblysArmy

February 2nd, 2007, 9:22 pm

HedwigOwl

February 3rd, 2007, 4:22 am

I have a question about this thread if somebody doesn't mind answering. Is there a theory buried in these 4 volumes of posts about why this kiss is important to the plot? I'd like to read it if there is, but after scaning some pages I see it may take awhile to find. It just seems odd that this topic is so in depth. Am I missing something?
:lol: It's just a little discussion about relationships (friendly & otherwise) between characters in the book. (By the way, if you really want to read something odd, there's a thread somewhere about the length of Harry's hair in OoP, and what length it should be, etc.......now that's odd, in my opinion.)

As there's very little revealed on page about Hermione's relationship with Krum until Ginny has an angry argument with Ron in HBP, the question came up here about whether Hermione kissed Krum. But as JKR has said in interview that Hermione's seen some action, many of us think so, but not everyone agrees.

dobbysfriend

February 3rd, 2007, 4:32 am

I do believe that there was some snogging goin on between them.

meesha1971

February 3rd, 2007, 4:32 pm

Harry retrieves the Marauder's Map. Harry knows the name "Godric's Hollow" though it's never been mentioned to him by anyone; he knows not only the name, but that it's where his parents were killed and buried. Ron knowing all about the Hand of Glory. There, that's at least 3 instances of major characters knowing/doing something that wasn't shown on page.

Jo addressed the Marauder's Map issue - revealed that it caused confusion and that it was a mistake not to include something on page to show how he got it back. She also explained how he did so there would be no more confusion.

How Harry knows the name Godric's Hollow is indicated on page with the Daily Prophet printing articles about Harry and Voldemort - and showing that Harry is reading them. He's known that his parents were killed in their home since the beginning so there's nothing unusual there.

Harry told Ron about seeing the Malfoys in Borgin and Burkes in COS. They spent a lot of time speculating about Malfoy because they thought he was the heir of Slytherin - planning what they were going to ask him with the Polyjuice Potion - and so on.

So those two are indicated on page and the first has been addressed and admitted to be a mistake. I don't see Jo making the same mistake twice - particularly regarding something that turned out to be significant to the Ron/Hermione subplot.

As I said in my previous post, we have 2 sources of canon, the books and JKR. Here is yet another quote where JKR tells us that Hermione did indeed get some action with Krum. (bolding is mine)
"Because of the demands of the adventure that Harry is following, he has had less sexual experience than boys of his age might have had," Rowling allows. "But I really wanted my heroes to grow up. Ron's hormones get fuller play in book six." Cue the throaty alto laughter. "Basically it dawns on Ron that Hermione's had some action, Harry's had some action and he's never got close!"

No, Jo said that "it dawns on Ron". She never said that Hermione actually had any actions - just that Ron thinks she has. She's been very careful in that regard and she has never directly stated that Hermione made out with Krum. She always puts it through Ron's point of view with things like "Ron would like to know" or "It dawns on Ron".

Meesha, I think at this point you're just inventing rules of literature and expecting JKR to follow them. Where do we get the rule that every action by a main, non POV character needs to be shown on page in order to be mentioned later on?

I learned it in college. My literature professor would cringe at some of the arguments being presented here. What one person considers to be "normal" behavior cannot apply - nor can personal opinion. There must be something on page to at least indicate it.

Even if this were a hard and fast literary convention, JKR isn't perfect, and there is no reason to believe that she couldn't have violated it.

No, she's not perfect, but when she makes a mistake, she admits to it - like with the Marauder's Map. She has also gone on record to say that she hates the kind of writing where plot holes are created and questions are raised and meticulously tries to avoid that. That's exactly what this does and she has yet to address it directly in any form, so there is more to this issue to be revealed. There is no other reason for Jo to keep quiet about - particularly when she had so much fun discussing everyone else's relationships and discussed in detail what she was trying to accomplish.

My point is, I love these books, but JKR isn't the best writer who ever lived. Even if we accept the dubious premise that Hermione's obvious embarassment about the whole Krum issue, Ron's jealousy, their canonical date and other canon-implied meetings have not adequately prepared the reader for the "revelation" that two teenagers shared a real kiss, it is quite possible that Rowling just got to HBP, said "Hmm... how can I make Ron mad enough at Hermione to date Lavender?" and decided to throw in that detail to push him over the edge.

I think that's exactly what Jo did. However - because she is so meticulous about avoiding plot holes, her options were limited. She cannot directly say that Hermione and Krum did make out because there is nothing in GOF that even remotely indicates that they had that kind of relationship. She can have Ginny make an assumption and later reveal it to be incorrect. That is a standard literary device - particularly with romance. A misunderstanding occurs to prevent the couple from getting together too soon in the story and then everything is cleared up later to they can get together.

I remember in the old Sibling Theory threads you (and I, and others) always argued against the pro-sibbers improbable contention that JKR responding that "no" to the question "does Hermione have any siblings" still allowed for ST because she might have been referring only to the scrapped Granger sister and not to Harry. But you are doing something similar here. In at least two interviews, at least one of which was after HBP and after JKR was aware of ship wars, JKR said something to strongly suggest that Hermione and Krum had some romantic involvement beyond the Ball. I'm not saying she was Krum's girlfriend, or that it was deep and abiding love, but taken together, I think it is safe to say that the author confirms some relationship. I can give you that JKR's "everyone is in love with the wrong people" comment was flippant and ill-thought out, although even that suggests that Hermione is interested in Krum, just as Harry is in Cho and Ron is in Fleur. But I can't accept that "Ron realizes that Hermione has had some action" doesn't suggest that there was a kiss. She doesn't say "Ron believes" or "thinks" that Hermione has had some action, but that he "realizes" it. That pretty clearly implies that he was correct in trusting Ginny.

In keeping her answers through Ron's point of view, Jo raises doubt in the validity of Ginny's statement. She does not say "Ron realizes" - she says that "It dawns on Ron" - which means that Ron thinks it - not that it is true.

The difference in the two situations is that the sibling quote is a direct question with a direct answer. The quotes regarding Hermione and Krum are vague and kept through Ron's point of view - no direct answer is ever given. The quote about "everyone being in love" does not match what was shown on page in GOF and it is obvious that Jo was having fun and joking around when she said that. They all went to the ball with the wrong person, but the only two people demonstrated to have any kind of feelings for the wrong person were Harry and Krum - not "everyone".

I also don't buy your certainty that Hermione and Krum couldn't possibly have had time to kiss. First of all, while your explanation of why it is unlikely that it occurred during the Yule Ball makes sense, I'm not sure how closely JKR was scrutinizing the time line. Just as when readers asked how Harry got the map back, JKR just said that she expected us to realize that he would find a way to get into Moody's office a nick it back (and this is the POV character, remember), I bet if you asked her about this she would say something like "I'm sure they found their moment while Ron was away." Ron was watching them, but he isn't a stalker and he was canonically absent for part of the Ball.

Jo also said that not including something on page to show how Harry got the map back was a mistake. It caused confusion and she apologized for that. I don't see her making the same mistake twice.

The timing doesn't work and Jo would be hard pressed to explain it. How exactly would Hermione and Krum fit the snogging in? Krum had to locate Hermione in the crowd - they had drinks - they resumed dancing. There simply is not enough time presented for them to leave the Great Hall, make out, return, and be in the middle of a dance when Harry and Ron return. Unless they were making out in the middle of the dance floor in front of everyone - which would have been all over the school - it simply does not work.

In order to assume that Hermione left the Great Hall at any point, there must be something on page to indicate that she did. Harry and/or Ron would have to note that she was absent - or someone else ask them where she was to draw attention to the fact that she was not there. Otherwise we are left with only one conclusion - Hermione never left the Great Hall until midnight when everyone left.

However, I think it is quite possible they kissed on another occasion. The timeline of the book doesn't support the idea that their "relationship" was over by the end of the Ball. The Ball is at Christmas. The second Task is on February 24th, a full two months later. If Hermione had made it clear that she didn't return Krum's affections and they hadn't met alone since then, Krum would have to be very shallow indeed for her to be the thing he would miss most. How could he miss her if they never saw each other anyway?

GOF doesn't support the idea of them having any kind of relationship beyond friendship. Hermione wasn't attracted to Krum romantically. From what is shown on page, they were never alone together. He asked her to the ball in the library - where his flock of fangirls consistently hovered in the background. The ball was a public event and they never left the Great Hall. They said good night in the Entrance Hall with students milling around.

Krum didn't actually have feelings for Hermione - although he thought he did. It was the fact that she wasn't attracted to him that peaked his interest. He had all those girls fawning all over him - following him around - he could have any one of them at the snap of a finger. But he couldn't have Hermione and that made him want her all the more.

None of this makes Hermione a bad person, or interferes with her character. To have kissed him once doesn't mean she led him on or felt deeply about him, it means that she was a typical 14 year old just a bit star-struck by an older sports star who shows interest in her. Remember, this is the same girl who only two years earlier had mooned over the incompetent pretty boy Lockhart. She has matured since then, and isn't about to become one of Krum's foolish fangirls. But she would have to be inhuman to be completely impervious to Krum's advances.

Inhuman? :lol: Sorry, but not being attracted to someone doesn't make you "inhuman". She thought Krum was a nice guy and wanted to be friends with him. She was never "starstruck" by Krum. She could care less about Quidditch. She was infatuated with Lockhart because he was a famous author and had written all the books for their class.

It's not the idea of a kiss that bothers me - I think she should have kissed him - although Jo did make Krum too old for her, but that's another issue. What bothers me about this is the fact that Hermione would have had to go to great extremes to hide such a thing. It simply is not feasible that she could have had any kind of serious relationship with any boy and neither Harry nor Ron notice anything unusual - particularly Ron because he was jealous. She spends too much time with Harry and Ron for that to be possible. Then you have Krums fangirls following him around and Rita Skeeter buzzing around in beetle form trying to dig up dirt. It simply is not feasible that not one single person would have noticed anything. If Hermione had been involved with Krum on a serious, romantic level, then it would have been all over the school. Harry and Ron would have noticed something themselves as well as hearing about it from other people. Rita wouldn't have passed up a juicy tidbit like that for her article. And Hermione wouldn't have laughed at the idea and called it rubbish.

And why would she go to such extremes to hide it? That goes against Hermione's characterization. If she were attracted to Krum and involved with him on that level, then she would have dated him openly. Everyone would have known about it. There was no reason to keep something like that a secret and it is derogatory to Hermione to say that she would do something like that. It wouldn't be fair to Ron or Krum. And I really don't see Krum staying friends with her if she had treated him that badly.

Then we have the lies. If it were true, then why lie about it? Why tell Ron they were just friends and then roll her eyes in exasperation when he was still suspicious? Hermione was completely honest about everything else regarding Krum. She told them about him asking her to the ball and what he said - she told them about Krum confessing his feelings. Ron asked and she told the truth. Why lie about their relationship? That is also derogatory to Hermione's character.

There simply is too much inconsistency for it to be true. Of all the people Jo could have picked for this revelation, choosing Ginny makes it even less likely to be true because Jo then goes on to emphasize on page that Ginny and Hermione are not very close. She further demonstrated that Ginny likes to gossip and makes assumptions about others - particularly about romance. She directly shows that Ginny is making an assumption about Harry. Harry didn't even talk about kissing Cho in detail with Ron and Hermione. There is no way that Ginny knew anything about that. She's making an assumption.

The evidence is clear. Ginny is making an assumption based on the gossip that surrounded Hermione and Krum in GOF. Jo didn't have any other choice in the matter because she wrote herself into a corner regarding Hermione and Krum. Anything else creates a plot hole, raises too many questions, and is derogatory to both Hermione and Ginny's characters. Nothing else works.

HedwigOwl

February 4th, 2007, 2:21 am

I learned it in college. My literature professor would cringe at some of the arguments being presented here.
However, we're not discussing your literature professor's opinions/classes, we're discussing the HP books as JKR has written them, and what questions she has answered about them.

DumblysArmy

February 4th, 2007, 8:35 am

:lol: It's just a little discussion about relationships (friendly & otherwise) between characters in the book. (By the way, if you really want to read something odd, there's a thread somewhere about the length of Harry's hair in OoP, and what length it should be, etc.......now that's odd, in my opinion.)

As there's very little revealed on page about Hermione's relationship with Krum until Ginny has an angry argument with Ron in HBP, the question came up here about whether Hermione kissed Krum. But as JKR has said in interview that Hermione's seen some action, many of us think so, but not everyone agrees.

Oh, I see. Well I'll throw in my two cents on the matter if it'll help any.

Harry's snogged Cho Chang!' shouted Ginny, who sounded close to tears now. 'And Hermione snogged Viktor Krum, it's only you who acts like it's something disgusting, Ron, and that's because you've got about as much experience as a twelve-year-old!'
Here it is shown on page that Hermione kissed Krum. Nothing has ever been shown on page that Ginny was incorrect. If Ginny was incorrect JKR would have shown so on page, she doesn't make mistakes like that in her writing.

D'you think Hermione did snog Krum?
snip
The honest answer was 'yes'

Again it is shown on page that Hermione kissed Krum. If Harry was incorrect JKR would have shown so on page, but she never did.

'She can't complain,' he told Harry. 'She snogged Krum.
I hate to sound redundant but again it is shown on page that Hermione kissed Krum and again JKR never shows on page that this is false.

So in HBP there are three different characters all saying that Hermione kissed Krum and not once are any of their statements shown to be false on page. In DH maybe they will be, but until that time we must go by what's shown on page and that is that Hermione kissed Krum.

kingwidgit

February 4th, 2007, 10:35 am

it is shown on page that Hermione kissed Krum
Actually, we have the phrases 'she snogged him' but we do not get to visually witness the act in canon, as we do Harry and Ginny's kiss. Of course, we didn't witness Krum inviting Hermy-own-ninny to the dance, either. There are things that occur with main/minor characters that we do not visually see, but hear of 'after the fact' in canon:

Ginny killing Hagrid's roosters, writing on the wall, sending the singing Valentine, setting the Basilisk loose, shredding Harry's possessions in an attempt to regain the diary, being taken into the Chamber...
Hermione telling McGonagall about the Firebolt.
Hermione being lonely and visiting Hagrid because Ron and Harry aren't talking to her.
Fred & George sneaking out of school, to and from Hogsmeade.
Dumbledore's meetings with the Ministers of Magic.
The disappearance of Fortescue and Ollivander.
Hagrid's trip to the giants.
Cho, Gabrielle, Ron, and Hermione being bewitched and tied to a stone statue under the lake.
Rosmerta being placed under the Imperius and sending messages back and forth to Malfoy via enchanted coin.
The Death Eaters entering the castle.
The reason for this is because Harry wasn't there to "see" any of it and we fans see things from Harry's POV. Most of the time when we hear "after the fact" it's truthful and correct.

Sometimes things not seen from Harry's POV but heard "after the fact" aren't true, though normally they are revealed to be untrue by the ending of the book:

Snape was after the Philopher's Stone. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in PS/SS]
Sirius was the Secret Keeper and betrayed the Potters. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in POA]
Crookshanks killed Scabbers. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in POA]
Barty Crouch died in prison. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in GoF]
Kreacher hiding in the attic. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in OotP]
Lockhart and all of his wondrous exploits. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in CoS]
Sirius being held and tortured in the DoM. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in OotP]
The 'after the fact' hearing of "Hermione snogged Krum" was not shown 'on page' to be untrue in HBP.

In separate interviews by JK: "Rowling certainly isn't afraid of sex, as Order of the Phoenix--which had Harry making out with the beautiful, grieving Cho Chang--ably demonstrated. Harry and his friends are now 16, and it would just be weird if Harry didn't have more on his mind than wands and snitches. "Because of the demands of the adventure that Harry is following, he has had less sexual experience than boys of his age might have had," Rowling allows. "But I really wanted my heroes to grow up. Ron's hormones get fuller play in book six." Cue the throaty alto laughter. "Basically it dawns on Ron that Hermione's had some action, Harry's had some action and he's never got close!" '"But Ron - I had a lot of fun with that in this book. I really enjoyed writing the Ron/Lavender business, and the reason that was enjoyable was Ron up to this point has been quite immature compared to the other two, and he kind of needed to make himself worthy of Hermione. Now, that didn't mean necessarily physical experience, but he had to grow up emotionally and now he's taken a big step up."

DumblysArmy

February 4th, 2007, 11:05 am

meesha1971

February 4th, 2007, 11:42 am

Actually, we have the phrases 'she snogged him' but we do not get to visually witness the act in canon, as we do Harry and Ginny's kiss. Of course, we didn't witness Krum inviting Hermy-own-ninny to the dance, either. There are things that occur with main/minor characters that we do not visually see, but hear of 'after the fact' in canon:

Ginny killing Hagrid's roosters, writing on the wall, sending the singing Valentine, setting the Basilisk loose, shredding Harry's possessions in an attempt to regain the diary, being taken into the Chamber...
Hermione telling McGonagall about the Firebolt.
Hermione being lonely and visiting Hagrid because Ron and Harry aren't talking to her.
Fred & George sneaking out of school, to and from Hogsmeade.
Dumbledore's meetings with the Ministers of Magic.
The disappearance of Fortescue and Ollivander.
Hagrid's trip to the giants.
Cho, Gabrielle, Ron, and Hermione being bewitched and tied to a stone statue under the lake.
Rosmerta being placed under the Imperius and sending messages back and forth to Malfoy via enchanted coin.
The Death Eaters entering the castle.
The reason for this is because Harry wasn't there to "see" any of it and we fans see things from Harry's POV. Most of the time when we hear "after the fact" it's truthful and correct.

And all of those things are confirmed on page by the people involved. Ginny admitted to all of the things she had done while possessed. Hermione confessed that she had told McGonagall about the Firebolt - and the opportunity for her to do that was directly shown on page. Hagrid reveals that Hermione came to see him and what she said and the wording is specific there - he wasn't just stating she was upset without giving the reasons why he thought that. Fred and George personally tell Harry how they've used the map - and we are also shown on page when they supply food, etc... for the celebration. Dumbledore mentions meeting with Fudge, etc... himself. Fortescue and Ollivander's disappearances are news and nobody knows exactly what happened to them - or is directly stating anything of the sort. Hagrid's trip to the giants is recounted by Hagrid. The hostages being taken was alluded to on page when Ron and Hermione were summoned to McGonagall's office - rather obvious what was going on there. Draco confessed to putting Rosmerta under the Imperius Curse and using the enchanted coins - and so on. Harry saw the Death Eaters in the castle for himself and Ron personally witnessed them enter - and Draco confessed to how he had accomplished it.

That is the significant difference in these events. In all of those examples, the event was confirmed by the person involved. Draco is the one who performed the curse - Draco can reveal it. Hermione was the one who went to McGonagall so she can reveal that. In this case, we never get Hermione's side of the story. She never finds out about what Ginny said and never gets the opportunity to defend herself.

That is very significant. Ginny is not Hermione and cannot speak for Hermione without corroborating evidence on page. That is not the same as Hagrid telling them that Hermione came to him and was upset. Ginny makes a blanket statement with nothing to show how she would know such a thing and she assumes that Harry and Ron already know about it.

Something on page in GOF that at least alludes to the opportunity is an absolute requirement because Ginny's statement cannot stand alone. Harry's assumption cannot stand alone either because he never saw anything to lead him to that conclusion. He is making an assumption based on another assumption - that Hermione was interested in Krum because he was older and famous.

Hermione could confirm it herself, but that still leaves the plot hole because there is no opportunity presented in GOF for her to have been making out with Krum. Even Ginny's activities in COS were alluded to on page. It was noted that she was hanging around Hagrid's, etc... So that becomes a complicated issue because, in order for neither Harry or Ron to have seen anything at all, then Hermione would have to have lied to them at some point. She spends too much time with them for them not to notice anything.

Sometimes things not seen from Harry's POV but heard "after the fact" aren't true, though normally they are revealed to be untrue by the ending of the book:

Snape was after the Philopher's Stone. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in PS/SS]
Sirius was the Secret Keeper and betrayed the Potters. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in POA]
Crookshanks killed Scabbers. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in POA]
Barty Crouch died in prison. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in GoF]
Kreacher hiding in the attic. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in OotP]
Lockhart and all of his wondrous exploits. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in CoS]
Sirius being held and tortured in the DoM. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in OotP]
The 'after the fact' hearing of "Hermione snogged Krum" was not shown 'on page' to be untrue in HBP.

The same can be said about Snape's loyalties - carrying over through each book with no definite resolution. The same can be said about the relationships in general - clues given to show that Ron and Hermione will get together - but they have not done so yet. Clues towards Harry and Ginny were given throughout, but not resolved until HBP. The prophecy was alluded to in POA and GOF, but not revealed until OOTP.

Not everything is dealt with in a single book. A lot of issues have carried over. This issue in particular has carried over three books with Ron being suspicious in GOF and OOTP and Ginny making an assumption in HBP. Ginny's statement was not a revelation - it's just another piece of the puzzle. We don't know the final resolution yet because we haven't heard anything from Hermione.

In separate interviews by JK:

Both of those are discussing Ron and what he thinks - not what actually happened. Jo has never addressed the issue directly. In keeping her answers through Ron's point of view - what he thinks and what he would like to know - she raises doubt.

It's also interesting that she specifically refers to wanting Harry and Ron to kiss other girls but makes no mention of Hermione at all. Hermione is conspicuously absent from that conversation - and Jo is quick to point out that she was not trying to show physical experience, but emotional development. From that, we know that someone doesn't have any kind of physical experience and, since Hermione was the only one not shown, we know that she is the one who doesn't have any experience. This is also evident in her actions in HBP - particularly with McLaggen. Her lack of experience really stands out there.

kingwidgit

February 4th, 2007, 6:01 pm

Jo has never addressed the issue directly. In keeping her answers through Ron's point of view - what he thinks and what he would like to know - she raises doubt.I disagree. JK doesn't say "it dawns on Ron that Hermione may have had some action"; she says "it dawns on Ron that Hermione has had some action".

The simple fact of the matter is, in regards to ships, specifically Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione, she's been extremely cagey and/or silent on the subject. We had Chocolate confirmed on page, but I don't see JK doing anything to confirm the kiss to Krum on/off page until Heron is established.

The kiss could have occurred at any time that Harry wasn't there to "see" it: before the ball, after the ball, when Krum invited Hermione to a 'word and led her out of sight' before Durmstrang left Hogwarts.

seeker

February 4th, 2007, 6:20 pm

The problem with using examples like Snape's loyalties to suggest that something can be introduced as true in one book and contradicted in the next is that that actually matters to the plot of the book. Snape's identity as a character is bound up in the ambiguity surrounding his loyalties: it is an issue that has to be resolved in one way or the other. The same can't be said for Hermione kissing Krum. While it had some impact on a subplot in HBP, by the end of the book, it is pretty clear that Ron and Hermione have gotten over their differences and are moving toward a relationship, if they aren't in one already. There is no need for the two to have a conversation about whether or not Hermione and Krum snogged, because Ron has moved past it. Unlike Snape's loyalties, it is no longer an issue, and hence we have no reason to doubt Ginny's assertion and the author's implied corraboration of that assertion.

By the way, if Harry's and Ron's closeness to Hermione would have prevented her from kissing Krum without their knowledge, than why would they believe Ginny at all? Considering that the boys who apparently spend all of their time with her find it credible that she kissed Krum without their knowledge, I don't see where you find the basis to question it. This is particularly true given that Krum met Hermione and asked her to the Ball without Harry or Ron knowing, and that he apparently spent enough time with her to be able to say, five months after the ball that she speaks about Harry "often."

Again, I want to point out that assuming that you are right about the extent of Hermione and Krum's relationship, Krum's behavior is inexiplicable. If they haven't spent any time together between December 25 and February 24, why is Hermione the thing that he'll miss most? And if Hermione is unequivocally not interested in him, why does he think she might go to Bulgaria with him? And why are they stil in correspondence in OOtP?

My reading of Hermione's behavior during the book is that she herself is somewhat confused. On the one hand, she isn't particularly interested in Krum, and is becoming increasingly aware of her feelings for Ron. She also doesn't want to be one of these foolish girls hanging on his every word. However, as someone whose two male best friends, one of whom she is interested in, see her as "one of the boys" to the point where they don't immediately realize that she could be a potential Yule Ball date, it is flattering when Krum, who so many girls desire, singles her out. If Krum were an idiot or a jerk, that wouldn't have mattered. But Krum in GoF comes off as a basically decent guy who has at least enough substance and intelligence to be chosen as a Triwizard Champion. Her feelings for him are never serious, but she does see him in a romantic light. I mean, very few high school (or even college) girls choose their boyfriends or dates based on whether or not they have a future together. It is quite acceptable to date someone just because he's a nice guy that you are somewhat attracted to and can see spending an enjoyable few months with. This only becomes problematic once it becomes clear that one partner wants more.

Canon supports this reading. Hermione's first reaction to seeing the picture of Krum is to dismiss him as "grumpy" looking. Yet, after the match, she is leaning over the top box to get a look at him, saying that "He was very brave." To me, this comment is foreshadowing of their later pairing - and it is Hermione showing interest in Krum, rather than the other way around. When Krum arrives at Hogwarts, Hermione shows an immoderate amount of annoyance at the way everyone fawns over Krum: there are several occasions on which she maintains that he is "only a Quidditch player" and that she can't believe that all the girls are being so silly. You can choose to interpret this purely as irritation over the foolishness of others, but it seems to me that her obvious anxiety to show how above that she is may be intended to conceal, even to herself, her own mild attraction to him. She is absurdly secretive about going to the ball with him - kind of strange is she doesn't care about him at all. Compare that to Ginny, who is clearly not interested in Neville and therefore has no problem telling her brother and her crush who she is going to *** ball with. She spends a lot of time getting ready for the Ball, although she doesn't normally have much concern for her appearance. If it were all so that Ron could see her in that light, she could just make more of an effort on a daily basis. Indeed, if the fact that she and the boys are so close has any bearing on this situation, it is that her continued reticence to talk about him to them suggests that there is someting more than pure friendship going on.

Instead, she seems to confide in Ginny. While we don't know how much she told her, it is clear that Ginny knows who Hermione is going to the Ball with. When Ron thinks Hermione is lying, Ginny is the one who says that she isn't. Then, in OOtP, Hermione knows about Ginny's relationship with Michael while Harry and Ron don't. We get further confirmation that the two girls discuss relationship issues at the end of HBP, when Ginny tells Harry that Hermione suggested to her that she act more natural around him. Given these incidents, Ginny's knowledge of Hermione and Krum's kiss fits with other indications that JKR has given us about Ginny and Hermione's friendship.

There is no real reason to doubt Ginny's assertion. Harry, who we can expect to be fairly impartial on the issue, believes her. JKR makes statements that, if not confirmations, at least suggest a romantic linkage. Hermione's behavior in GoF is at least ambiguous as to how she felt about him, and Krum's behavior only makes sense if they had some contact beyond the Yule Ball. They are two teenagers who went to the equivelent of the prom together. Ron and Hermione are firmly on the road to a relationship, so there is no textual reason to contradict Ginny's words. The clearest explanation is that the two did indeed kiss.

meesha1971

February 4th, 2007, 7:50 pm

I disagree. JK doesn't say "it dawns on Ron that Hermione may have had some action"; she says "it dawns on Ron that Hermione has had some action".

Then why not say "Hermione had some action" instead of "It dawns on Ron"? All that really says is that Ron thinks something happened - not that it actually did.

That's the second suspicious thing I noticed about this - the first being that Ginny's statement comes completely out of the blue with nothing to support it and nothing to confirm it. Not once has Jo ever said that Hermione kissed Krum - that she dated him - or anything. It's always from Ron's point of view - Ron would like to know or it dawns on Ron. That tells us nothing. A typically vague response from Jo.

The simple fact of the matter is, in regards to ships, specifically Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione, she's been extremely cagey and/or silent on the subject. We had Chocolate confirmed on page, but I don't see JK doing anything to confirm the kiss to Krum on/off page until Heron is established.

Prior to HBP, that was true. She was vague and very cagey about it. After HBP, she was completely open and very willing to discuss it - and had a lot of fun doing so. She discussed Harry and Ron's previous relationships and what she was trying to accomplish. She even discussed the fact that Ginny needed to go on a journey before getting with Harry. Absolutely nothing about Hermione. Hermione is not even mentioned apart from confirmation that Ron and Hermione will be a couple.

Simply put, there is no reason for a previous relationship for Hermione not to be shown or for it to be hidden. Everyone else's relationships were shown on page and discussed by Jo. The only reason for nothing to be shown for Hermione and for Jo not to discuss Hermione is if nothing happened.

The kiss could have occurred at any time that Harry wasn't there to "see" it: before the ball, after the ball, when Krum invited Hermione to a 'word and led her out of sight' before Durmstrang left Hogwarts.

That is very bad writing - amateurish would be the best way to describe it. Jo has always been meticulous about at least giving some on page indication as to what is going on - even with minor issues such as shipping.

I think I may be getting misunderstood here. I'm not saying that the kissing itself would have to be shown on page. What I'm saying is that there must be something on page to at least indicate it. Ron questioning why Hermione was spending so much extra time in the library - or just wondering where she was at some point. Hermione showing up late and not wanting to say why or being vague about it. Even Harry spotting Hermione with Viktor holding hands or cuddling - or some other "couple" behavior - would suffice.

We were given indication on page that Krum was interested in Hermione and that he asked her to the ball - the opportunity was indicated on page by showing Krum in the library every time they went in there. None of that came out of the blue. Nor did Hermione's accepting his invitation or the reason why she accepted his invitation. And all of that was confirmed by Hermione. Hermione was always honest when asked about Krum.

So why would she hide it - particularly when she would have had to go to such great extremes in order to do so? That makes no sense whatsoever. If she was attracted to Krum and was making out with him, then why not date him openly? Why lie to Ron's face when he said that Krum wanted to be more than friends? Why get exasperated with Ron when he didn't believe that they were just friends?

It just doesn't work and I have more faith in Jo's writing ability than to think she would just toss something in with no thought to consistency whatsoever. Everything else has had sufficient information given on page to at least give an indication of it. Having Ginny state that out of the blue with no on page support in GOF and no confirmation from Hermione at all is suspicious and very poor writing. It raises too many questions and is completely inconsistent with what was shown. Given that Jo has gone on record to say that she loathes that type of writing, I don't see her doing that.

Yoana

February 4th, 2007, 8:25 pm

Krum didn't actually have feelings for Hermione - although he thought he did. It was the fact that she wasn't attracted to him that peaked his interest. He had all those girls fawning all over him - following him around - he could have any one of them at the snap of a finger. But he couldn't have Hermione and that made him want her all the more.

There were plenty other girls not following Viktor around - among them Cho, Fleur, Ginny. But he chose Hermione. So there was something more than lack of interest.

Saying he didn't have feelings for her is contradictory to what is written in the book. He says he has never felt the same about any other girl. He invites her to Bulgaria. The Triwizard people in charge see her as the thing he would miss most.

tuer_lisse

February 4th, 2007, 8:28 pm

I dont know how there can be any ambiguity about this!? Didnt it state in Half Blood Prince that Hermione kissed Victor Krum?

Yoana

February 4th, 2007, 8:31 pm

Then why not say "Hermione had some action" instead of "It dawns on Ron"? All that really says is that Ron thinks something happened - not that it actually did.

Because she explains Ron's reason to date Lavender. Therefore he needs to be included in the sentence. But she says "dawns on", which means "realizes". She could have said "he thinks", "he is told", "he is led to believe", but she says it the simplest way - Ron realizes.

We were given indication on page that Krum was interested in Hermione and that he asked her to the ball - the opportunity was indicated on page by showing Krum in the library every time they went in there. None of that came out of the blue. Nor did Hermione's accepting his invitation or the reason why she accepted his invitation. And all of that was confirmed by Hermione. Hermione was always honest when asked about Krum.

Yes - when asked. No one ever asks her if she dated him in year 4 or if she kissed him. And it seems to me that she wouldn't have told them even about the invitation to Bulgaria, had it not been in the paper - why did they have to learn it from there? Why didn't she confide in them earlier?

kingwidgit

February 4th, 2007, 8:51 pm

What I'm saying is that there must be something on page to at least indicate it.There is, but some do not accept it as canon. Neither Hermione or Krum have to confirm "Hermione snogged Krum" for it to be true. It was stated in canon, therefore it is on page as canon. There's nothing on or off page to refute it.That is very bad writing - amateurish would be the best way to describe it.Like how Harry got the Marauder's Map back from Moody? :shrug: That has never been confirmed in the book. If it weren't for the fact that someone had specifically asked JK how that came about I'm willing to bet we'd still be in the dark about it.

Balbulmaya

February 4th, 2007, 9:18 pm

I'm not really sure...

I think Ginny was really angry at the momment she said that hermiony "snogged" Krum, but then again, ginny is like, the closest girl friend that Hermiony has, so Hermiony probably shares some secrets with her....right?

SSJ_Jup81

February 4th, 2007, 9:58 pm

There is, but some do not accept it as canon. Neither Hermione or Krum have to confirm "Hermione snogged Krum" for it to be true. It was stated in canon, therefore it is on page as canon. There's nothing on or off page to refute it.It's not technically "canon" until it's mentioned by the persons involved when it comes to that type of stuff, seemingly. It's like how Hermione mentioned to the boys that Ginny was dating Michael. Yes, it was mentioned in canon, but, it wasn't confirmed or shown to be true by Hermione; that was done so by Ginny later on, onpage. We have a one-sided situation here. Ginny made a confirmation and it still hasn't been shown or confirmed by any of the people involved.Like how Harry got the Marauder's Map back from Moody? :shrug: That has never been confirmed in the book. If it weren't for the fact that someone had specifically asked JK how that came about I'm willing to bet we'd still be in the dark about it.Yeah, but JKR admitted to its being a mistake on her part and explained it. So, what we have here (in ref to this topic), is that JKR forgot to include clues in GoF to corroborate Ginny's revelation, like the Marauder's map thing, or either Ginny's assuming or either she's lying or either she's exaggerating.

snuka

February 4th, 2007, 10:18 pm

We can't say for sure.

Given what Hermione said when asked about her "dating" Krum, I'd say no, it didn't happen. They're just friends. Maybe a gentlemanly peck on the cheek/kiss of the hand, but nothing near to the making out like Ginny is suggesting.

amafaiope

February 5th, 2007, 1:06 am

Ah.. this is the cost of having the stories narrarated by Harry. He wasn't with Viktor and Hermione much, so we can't really know for sure. I just have a little feeling that Hermione did have her first kiss with Viktor, if only to have Hermione and Ron on even-footing. I mean, Ron's "relationship" with Lavender seemed to go further than I'd imagine Hermione/Viktor went, but both Hermione and Ron still had their first kisses. Perhaps that's just my bias though, because I wouldn't want Ron to be Hermione's first kiss.

sparkly

February 5th, 2007, 1:38 am

It's not technically "canon" until it's mentioned by the persons involved when it comes to that type of stuff, seemingly. It's like how Hermione mentioned to the boys that Ginny was dating Michael. Yes, it was mentioned in canon, but, it wasn't confirmed or shown to be true by Hermione; that was done so by Ginny later on, onpage. We have a one-sided situation here. Ginny made a confirmation and it still hasn't been shown or confirmed by any of the people involved.Yeah, but JKR admitted to its being a mistake on her part and explained it. So, what we have here (in ref to this topic), is that JKR forgot to include clues in GoF to corroborate Ginny's revelation, like the Marauder's map thing, or either Ginny's assuming or either she's lying or either she's exaggerating.

Ginny never said she was dating Michael - all she did was tell him about the DA meeting.

I disagree that canon evidence needs to be confirmed by the principals involved - if so, then Ginny and Dean are still dating since neither of them confirmed Hermione's declaration that they had broken up.

HedwigOwl

February 5th, 2007, 4:49 am

I think I may be getting misunderstood here. I'm not saying that the kissing itself would have to be shown on page. What I'm saying is that there must be something on page to at least indicate it.
There is, we have JKR's description of Hermione & Krum at the ball, Hermione's confirmation that Rita's article was true about her & Krum's conversation, leading up to HBP, where Ginny tells Ron that Hermione & Krum had snogged. And indirectly, we have indication on page through Ron's seemingly irrationally jealous reactions -- if Hermione did not seem interested in Krum as well, I don't think Ron would have been so upset.

Krum didn't actually have feelings for Hermione - although he thought he did.
Sorry, but that directly contradicts what is written in GoF.

There were plenty other girls not following Viktor around - among them Cho, Fleur, Ginny. But he chose Hermione. So there was something more than lack of interest.

Saying he didn't have feelings for her is contradictory to what is written in the book. He says he has never felt the same about any other girl. He invites her to Bulgaria. The Triwizard people in charge see her as the thing he would miss most.
Agreed. Also, the canon descriptions of those girls following Krum seemed very small compared to the entire school and all the girls from the visiting schools. Hermione describes them as a "fan club" while in the library with Harry, and we are told of a "gang of girls" tip-toeing past them into the library -- there cannot have been that many of them or Madam Pince would have thrown them out.

snuka

February 5th, 2007, 8:33 am

It seems all 3 need one failed "relationship" before the real thing.

Harry-Cho before Harry-Ginny
Ron-Lavender before Ron-Hermione
and before Hermione-Ron there was IMO Hermione-McLaggen

I think in the books it seemed Krum always liked Hermione more than the other way around. Also, Hermione is quite the player in the romantic field if she is a) seeing Krum, b) interested in Ron and c) still went out with McLaggen. I think nothing in the cannon suggests she has any more romantic experience than Harry (or Ron by the end of HBP).

Sandrinha

February 5th, 2007, 10:05 pm

I notice this is version 4 of this thread and I've never ventured in before so can't imagine what all there is to talk about :hmm: but it seemed obvious that Viktor was Hermione's superficial teen fling which would include kissing whether Harry witnessed it and reported it to us directly or not.

For the first time Hr has a guy oogling her not the Lavenders and what girl at that age would not like that attention.

4 threads :relax:. Damn these love issues sure do make up for some very long threads :p.

vivekgk

February 21st, 2007, 6:40 pm

Then why not say "Hermione had some action" instead of "It dawns on Ron"? All that really says is that Ron thinks something happened - not that it actually did.

Well, Jo is answering a question about Ron's behaviour in HBP, and it would make sense to include Ron in the answer. If she'd wanted to suggest that Ron was wrong, she could have said 'Ron thinks', or 'Ron assumed'. But, Jo says "It dawns on Ron", suggesting that Ron has 'realized' something that he hadn't thought about before. Ron did understand that Hermione was a girl, and that she'd seen Krum for a while, but he hadn't realized the implications, what they could've done, until Ginny told him not-so-subtly. Wishful thinking, as it were.

That's the second suspicious thing I noticed about this - the first being that Ginny's statement comes completely out of the blue with nothing to support it and nothing to confirm it.

Considering that the story is from Harry's viewpoint, and because he concludes that she did kiss him, I'd say that it was confirmation enough. There's also the fact that neither of them know if Hermione accepted Krum's offer to visit him or not.

She discussed Harry and Ron's previous relationships and what she was trying to accomplish. She even discussed the fact that Ginny needed to go on a journey before getting with Harry. Absolutely nothing about Hermione. Hermione is not even mentioned apart from confirmation that Ron and Hermione will be a couple.

She did say that she wanted all of her heroes to be well-rounded, and that she didn't want their first kiss to be with the one they would end up with. Unless Hermione's first kiss was with Mclaggen, it was with Krum.

Simply put, there is no reason for a previous relationship for Hermione not to be shown or for it to be hidden. Everyone else's relationships were shown on page and discussed by Jo. The only reason for nothing to be shown for Hermione and for Jo not to discuss Hermione is if nothing happened.

If Harry had seen Hermione kissing Krum, he'd have had to tell Ron sometime before HBP, and then, there wouldn't have been a row in HBP about it. Thus, it was important that the details of Hermione and Krum's relationship be unknown to the boys.

That is very bad writing - amateurish would be the best way to describe it. Jo has always been meticulous about at least giving some on page indication as to what is going on - even with minor issues such as shipping.

Since the story is from Harry's perspective, there are some limitations to that sort of thing. In GoF, Harry is far more interested in what Maxime and Hagrid are saying than what is going on in the bushes. Harry wasn't interested in Hermione's love-life then. He is rather selfish in such things, especially since he has more than enough on his plate as it is.

The same goes for the 'couple' behaviour. For one, Harry isn't even noticing what Hermione gets up to with Krum, and for another, Hermione would take care to avoid such situations herself, because she wouldn't want to have to offer explanations. Not because she was ashamed or anything, but because she isn't comfortable discussing it with them. Hermione in GoF is still very insecure about herself. Telling her friends about what he's like as a person is very different from telling the intimate details.

Until the ball, Hermione thought that Ron would be excited at the prospect of her dating his Quidditch idol. I get the idea that she intended for it to be a pleasant surprise for him. However, at the Ball, she's shocked by his reaction, and decides to not antagonize him any further, and ruin their friendship with another row, by 'flaunting' her relationship with Krum, and dating him openly. They've both come to some sort of understanding where they do not talk about it at all if possible.

It might also be that the relationship stuff is still new for Hermione, and she's a bit shy about it all. We didn't see Ginny and Micheal together, and Ron and Harry didn't even notice that they were dating until Hermione told him. Ginny didn't tell Ron because she knew he would take it badly, not because she was ashamed of Michael. It's the same thing with Krum and Hermione.

It raises too many questions and is completely inconsistent with what was shown. Given that Jo has gone on record to say that she loathes that type of writing, I don't see her doing that.

IMHO, it would be even more inconsistent if it turns out that Ginny was just spreading rumours. Ginny isn't the sort to spread baseless rumours. Harry hates that sort of thing, and I don't see him falling for her if she were a horrible gossip, who spreads baseless and harmful rumours about friends. Harry doesn't respect people like that, and I can't see a girl like that being Harry's perfect girl.

CelestLBeing

February 21st, 2007, 9:11 pm

meesha1971

February 21st, 2007, 10:38 pm

There are many things that JKR doesn't go into detail over simply because they aren't important enough to waste space in a book. Like how Harry got the map back from Remus. But we know he did because it was casually mentioned later. Just as Hermione and Viktor snogging. We know they did because it was mentioned later. I fail to see why some on this thread refuse to see that there is canon saying they did snog. What is the big deal. Hermione is not a saint, she is a normal red blooded teenage girl. Of course she and Viktor snogged. It doesn't mean she decided she was madly in love with him. It means she is normal.

Jo publicly admitted that she made a mistake regarding the map. She said that she should have included something on page to show how Harry got it back and neglecting to do so caused confusion amongst the readers. She's not going to make the same mistake twice. Jo is very meticulous with little details - even going so far as to give reference on page to the fact that the students bathe and use the bathroom. Most authors don't pay that much attention to detail, but Jo does because she hates the kind of writing that creates plot holes and raises unanswered questions.

It's a big deal because it turns Hermione into a deceptive, manipulative person who used Krum, went to great lengths to hide that fact, and deliberately lied about it. It creates a plot hole because there is nothing in GOF to support it - no motive or opportunity for Hermione to have been making out.

Having a prior relationship - even making out - would not be a big deal. But the lengths that Hermione would have to have gone to to hide something like that - as well as deliberately lying to Ron about it make it a big deal. Not to mention what a terrible person that would make Ginny - to toss off such a huge secret of Hermione's without giving any consideration to Hermione's feelings or showing any remorse for it at all.

It is not canon. Canon only shows that Ginny thinks it is true. There is no canon at all that even remotely supports Ginny's statement. Hermione was never romantically attracted to Krum. She never exhibited any behavior to suggest that she was making out with anyone. Harry never saw anything to support the conclusion. There are no unexplained absences in GOF - there are no instances where Hermione showed up late and/or disheveled - or flustered when asked where she'd been. Harry never saw her with Krum behaving as a couple. Nothing.

Ginny is not Hermione and cannot speak for Hermione without corroborating evidence on page. That is a fact. Her statement can only be considered an assumption until something occurs on page to prove that it is true - and that can only come from Hermione. Nobody else can speak for Hermione's actions off page but Hermione - and even then Jo would have to jump through hoops to explain why there is no evidence in GOF to support it because it would still create a plot hole in that regard.

HagathaChristie

February 21st, 2007, 11:12 pm

meesha1971

February 21st, 2007, 11:36 pm

I agree. And considering JKR's comment that she didn't want the boys to never kiss anyone other than their ultimate partner, I would be quite perturbed if we were to learn that Hermione had not had her own snogging experience with Krum. It would seem rather sexist, in my opinion. :td:

I think it's rather sweet myself. I think it would be better to have your first kiss with someone you love as opposed to some random boy you aren't even attracted to. But that's just me.

It would have been nice if Jo had written in a prior relationship for Hermione - with Krum or anyone - but she chose not to do that. Hermione just wasn't interested in Krum romantically. I kept hoping Hermione would date someone - cause I could see that Jo was taking that route with Harry and Ron. But she never did. I'm not all that fussed about it though. The character development was served regardless. Hermione learned that guys could find her attractive even if she didn't return Krum's feelings. And that was what was important really.

Do you have her quote on that? I searched at accio-quote, but didn't find it. Thanks.

HPFreak7: How did Harry get the Marauder's Map back, when Crouch Jr. had it last?
JK Rowling replies -> Loads of people have asked me this, I knew I should have shown Harry nipping into Moody's empty office and getting it back, but I assumed you'd all know that's what he did. Sorry!

She also addressed it on her website. Both times she is apologetic for it and, on her websites, considers adding a line about that somewhere to clear it up. I don't think she actually did that, but it was something that caused confusion that she said she should have included on page.

I really don't see her making the same mistake twice - particularly not with an issue that is such a major part of the Ron/Hermione subplot. She pays too much attention to detail for that.

CelestLBeing

February 22nd, 2007, 12:13 am

It's a big deal because it turns Hermione into a deceptive, manipulative person who used Krum, went to great lengths to hide that fact, and deliberately lied about it.

My goodness, you do put alot of importance on a little snogging. It actually reminds me of ron. What was it ginny said about it would do him good to do a little snogging.
You might recall that so far Hermione hasn't had a boyfriend up to this point so I am not sure how that makes her deceptive. If Ron ever asks her outright I am sure she will tell him truthfully that she and Viktor snogged. She hasn't lied to anyone. And she has munipulated no one.

It creates a plot hole because there is nothing in GOF to support it - no motive or opportunity for Hermione to have been making out. Having a prior relationship - even making out - would not be a big deal. But the lengths that Hermione would have to have gone to to hide something like that - as well as deliberately lying to Ron about it make it a big deal. Not to mention what a terrible person that would make Ginny - to toss off such a huge secret of Hermione's without giving any consideration to Hermione's feelings or showing any remorse for it at all. It is not canon. Canon only shows that Ginny thinks it is true. There is no canon at all that even remotely supports Ginny's statement. Hermione was never romantically attracted to Krum. She never exhibited any behavior to suggest that she was making out with anyone. Harry never saw anything to support the conclusion.

Ah, Ah, Ah, Harry personally thought it was true. Of course since it is just in the book I guess we can't call that canon either.

There are no unexplained absences in GOF

How would we know if there are or not since we don't know what Hermione is doing when she isn't with Harry or Ron. Where were Harry and Ron when Viktor asked her to the dance. But since JKR didn't show him asking her it probably didn't happen, no canon of course.

- there are no instances where Hermione showed up late and/or disheveled - or flustered when asked where she'd been. Harry never saw her with Krum behaving as a couple. Nothing. Ginny is not Hermione and cannot speak for Hermione without corroborating evidence on page.

Actually I often her teenage girls repeating things friends have told them. Not to be spiteful, just in formative.

meesha1971

February 22nd, 2007, 12:55 am

My goodness, you do put alot of importance on a little snogging. It actually reminds me of ron. What was it ginny said about it would do him good to do a little snogging.

No, snogging would have been fine. Hiding it and lying about it is not.

You might recall that so far Hermione hasn't had a boyfriend up to this point so I am not sure how that makes her deceptive. If Ron ever asks her outright I am sure she will tell him truthfully that she and Viktor snogged. She hasn't lied to anyone. And she has munipulated no one.

If it were true, then she would have cruelly manipulated Krum because she did not have feelings for him and knew that he had feelings for her. If it were true then she would have been lying through her teeth every time she said they were just friends.

If it were true, then she would have had to go to great lengths to hide it - particularly considering that Rita Skeeter was digging around for dirt on Hermione. That would also go towards being manipulative and lying.

Personally, I think Hermione is a better person than that. She wouldn't stomp all over Krum's feelings in that manner and she would have no reason to lie to Ron if she had dated Krum.

Ah, Ah, Ah, Harry personally thought it was true. Of course since it is just in the book I guess we can't call that canon either.

That only shows that Harry thinks it's true - just as Ginny's statement only shows that she thinks it's true. There is nothing in canon to support the assumption. Ginny and Harry believing it does not mean it actually happened. Ginny was also positive that Molly was trying to set Bill up with Tonks. Harry was also positive that Tonks was in love with Sirius. They believed those things, but they were not true.

How would we know if there are or not since we don't know what Hermione is doing when she isn't with Harry or Ron. Where were Harry and Ron when Viktor asked her to the dance. But since JKR didn't show him asking her it probably didn't happen, no canon of course.

Actually, we do know what Hermione does when she is not with Harry and Ron - she goes to the library and she studies. Hermione revealed that Krum asked her in the library - which is fine because Hermione can reveal her own actions off page. Even so, there was evidence on page to support it. We knew that she had been going to the library and we knew that Krum was hanging around the library a lot.

Hermione is the only person who can reveal what she does off page. Ginny can't do that - neither can Harry for that matter. And we still need something in GOF to support it or there is a plot hole.

Actually I often her teenage girls repeating things friends have told them. Not to be spiteful, just in formative.

Things that they have been told in confidence? Things that person had gone to great lengths to hide - including lying about them? If that is the case, then I would have to say those girls are not close friends and whatever they're revealing would be questionable at best. Gossip is rarely accurate.

seeker

February 22nd, 2007, 1:16 am

Meesha: Let me respond to your contentions seperately, because they are good points and deserve a clear answer:

1. There would have to have been clear textual evidence for a Krum/Hermione snog

The HP series is primarily a coming of age, action adventure story. Love is an important theme in the books, but romantic love is a subplot. Even Harry's romances have not been given a huge amount of page space, and while Hermione is certainly an important character, she is not the main character Furthermore, this is not even her main romance. JKR's mistake with the map is that she left out something that Harry does during the timeframe of the book that the reader could have expected to have been aware of given that the book is from Harry's perspective. When we consider other characters, we shouldn't expect the same level of information.

2.Hermione would have been decieving Krum in snogging him without loving him.
Not necessarily. No one really expects most high school relationships to end in marriage, particularly when one partner is a senior and one a freshman, and even more particularly when the two live in different countries. Snogging may be more than a chaste kiss, but it is not shagging either, and for even a relatively modest 15 year old and 18 year old, a kiss with tongue doesn't necessarily indicate a serious relationship. We also don't know who initiated the kiss. It is possible that Hermione was going for a quick kiss on the lips and the more experienced Krum went slightly further, prompting Hermione to pull away. The Ron factor is to me a non-issue: many women have loved men who weren't interested in them, which is how her attraction to Ron probably appeared to Hermione in this book, and have concluded that they had no choice but to move on.

3.Since the trio spends so much time together, Hermione would have to have been deliberately decieving Harry and Ron to keep her relationship with Krum secret.
Hermione is under no obligation to reveal every aspect of her private life to her close male friends. While they are very close in other ways, I could understand how it might be awkward for her to discuss her love life with the boys, particularly given that one of them is Ron, who she already seems to have some feelings for and who has already reacted poorly to even her Yule Ball date with Krum. Harry, the more objective observor in the HBP revelation, has no problem believing that Hermione snogged Krum, suggesting that he at least seems to find it consistent with what he knew of their relationship. In terms of timing, we know that their different class schedules mean that the trio is canonically separate for at least a brief period each week, even assuming (which I don't) that they spent every waking moment together besides that. In addition, we know that Hermione is fond of the library, which is where she met Krum in the first place. It would have been very easy for her to tell the boys, if questioned, that she was going to the library - which could have been true, if she had arranged to meet Krum there. That may have been a lie , but it was not an elaborate deception, and not unheard of in the annals of male-female interaction. I doubt that it happened frequently, either.

It would make Ginny a terrible friend for telling her secret.
As Ron's reaction proves, Ginny was wrong to tell Ron about the snog. However, given that the kiss occurred two years earlier, Ginny might not have considered it a "huge" secret any more. It wasn't as if she told Ron the morning after it happened. Ginny also might have considered it to be a pretty logical assumption, rather than a shock, which is indeed the way in which Harry accepts the information. Ginny also may not have anticipated the extreme immaturity of Ron's reaction, again given that the information was TWO YEARS OLD and not something outside the realm of teenage behavior. Granted, than wasn't Ginny's call to make and she shouldn't have done it. But it isn't a horrible betrayal either.

Canon doesn't confirm that what Ginny says is true.
Only to the extent that hearsay is never as reliable as the evidence of our own senses. On that basis, we also don't have any canon to back up Hagrid's account of his time with the giants. However, unless we have a particular reason to believe that the story told is false, it just makes sense to accept such statements as true. When it isn't true, JKR usually makes that clear - for example, it is obvious that Hagrid is hiding something when the trio asks him about how he got his bruises. For the reasons I mentioned above, Hermione snogging Krum makes sense - and revealing the statement to have been false at this point makes no sense, since it is now a non-issue. There is also the JKR interview, about which we will have to agree to disagree, I think.

Hermione was never remotely attracted to Krum.

We don't know that. We know that she ultimately chose not to become seriously involved with him. There is a difference.

Harry never saw anything to support the conclusion that they were a couple.

If that is true, then why isn't he surprised when Ginny tell him that the two snogged? He didn't see the snog, but he know that they went to the ball together, that Hermione seems somewhat embarassed and secretive about the whole situation, that she is the thing Krum would miss most two months after the ball (suggesting that they have maintained contact - how could he miss her if they never spent time together), and that Krum is jealous of Harry's supposed relationship with her five months later. He also knows that the two have exchanged some letters after OotP, suggesting that they at least maintained contact during the year.

Ginny is not Hermione and cannot speak for her.
Perhaps she shouldn't have, but she can if Hermione confided in her. I know you see this as unlikely given the girls' relationship, but JKR doesn't seem to agree with you. Ginny seems to know that Hermione is going to the ball with Krum during GoF, and Hermione knows that Ginny is going out with Michael and how they met before the boys do. She also is at least close enough to the younger girl to have given her advice about Harry .These things suggest that the two discuss romantic issues with each other.

Jo would have to jump through hoops to explain why there was no evidence in GoF to support it.
At worst, she would have to say something like "I probably should have made it clearer." This is hardly the literary crime of the century (or even the series). I don't even agree that she did anything wrong in presenting the relationship, but even if you do it isn't a terribly significant issue. If the problem is so small that one sentence (i.e. "Harry had noticed that Hermione had been spending more time away from the room, a subejct that he studiously avoided mentioning in front of Ron, who still became sullen at any mention of Krum's name") would fix it, than it isn't a terrible mistake.

Wow, I spent way too much time on that!

Sugabeen

February 22nd, 2007, 3:51 am

I suppose you have to consider the strength of Hermione's friendship with Ginny when wondering why there was no mention of a kiss between her and Krum.

She has no other female friends to swap stories about boys with, and I just don't see her doing that with Harry or Ron. Boys don't usually like to hear their girl friends talking about boys anyway-even if they are just friends with the girls, so it wouldn't have come out that way.

I don't see Hermione as a very girly girl either-I have plenty of female friends who are like her and they don't go into details about their love lives! Yes, she liked dressing up, but she's equally happy as herself-she wouldn't bother to do her hair all the time just to make a boy happy!

I think Jo is more concerned with explaining what Hermione is all about-she might want a relationship, but it isn't a high priority for her, and there's a lot more to her character than that. Spending too much time telling us what went on with Victor would detract from her true nature.

Besides, a good author doesn't explain all the little details as its fun for the reader to allow their imagination to fill in gaps.

I don't go along with people who are saying that if she did kiss him and said she didn't then it points to her being a liar or a manipulator-its her personal business. I don't think Harry would have mentioned that he'd kissed Cho if Hermione hadn't asked him straight out.
She likes Ron-she's not going to go around saying that she kissed someone else, even if she did....she doesn't want to rub it in to Ron, for one thing-look how hurt she was when Ron was with Lavender.
It doesn't taint her entire character to lie about it.

PotterFreak0515

February 22nd, 2007, 4:07 am

I suppose. It doesn't really matter, does it? Except for Krum being at the Bill and Fleur's wedding and Ron getting jealous. I don't think it'll even come up. Ginny said she did and, though she was in a rage and trying to madden her brother, I trust her on that.

sparkly

February 22nd, 2007, 4:19 am

I think it's rather sweet myself. I think it would be better to have your first kiss with someone you love as opposed to some random boy you aren't even attracted to. But that's just me.

While that may be how you want Hermione to behave, what's important is what JKR wants. We can't impose our own preferences on what happened - we can only use what's given us in the books. What we have is JKR causing two characters to state positively that Hermione kissed Viktor, and neither of those statements have been contradicted. We do not have any indication that either Harry or Ginny only think their statements are true, and none of the other characters express any doubt about their statements.

HPFreak7: How did Harry get the Marauder's Map back, when Crouch Jr. had it last?
JK Rowling replies -> Loads of people have asked me this, I knew I should have shown Harry nipping into Moody's empty office and getting it back, but I assumed you'd all know that's what he did. Sorry!

She also addressed it on her website. Both times she is apologetic for it and, on her websites, considers adding a line about that somewhere to clear it up. I don't think she actually did that, but it was something that caused confusion that she said she should have included on page.

This quote shows that JKR is sorry she wasn't clear about how the map was returned, but she never says she made a mistake. As you said JKR doesn't make those kind of mistakes, and it's highly unlikely she'll make a mistake about the development of Ron and Hermione's relationship, since she's been nurturing it for six books. Therefore she did not make a mistake in GOF, and she didn't make one in HBP. Since Ginny and Harry were deliberately given lines to speak that positively state that Hermione kissed Viktor, and those statements have not been contradicted, the logical conclusion is that JKR intended Hermione to have kissed Viktor.

I really don't see her making the same mistake twice - particularly not with an issue that is such a major part of the Ron/Hermione subplot. She pays too much attention to detail for that.

Agreed. That confirms that Ginny and Harry were not mistaken. Hermione snogged Viktor.

HagathaChristie

February 22nd, 2007, 5:08 am

It would have been nice if Jo had written in a prior relationship for Hermione - with Krum or anyone - but she chose not to do that.
I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of readers believe JKR did include a prior relationship for Hermione, with Viktor, as it's in the canon.

HPFreak7: How did Harry get the Marauder's Map back, when Crouch Jr. had it last?
JK Rowling replies -> Loads of people have asked me this, I knew I should have shown Harry nipping into Moody's empty office and getting it back, but I assumed you'd all know that's what he did. Sorry!

She also addressed it on her website. Both times she is apologetic for it and, on her websites, considers adding a line about that somewhere to clear it up. I don't think she actually did that, but it was something that caused confusion that she said she should have included on page.

I really don't see her making the same mistake twice - particularly not with an issue that is such a major part of the Ron/Hermione subplot. She pays too much attention to detail for that.
Thanks for posting the quote. Her map comment could also be taken as her saying she'd assumed her readers would be smart enough to figure it out and that she didn't realize she'd have to spoonfeed every tiny little detail for us to get it. :lol: I don't see it as a mistake personally. Harry getting the map back might be a bit more pertinent because it involves our main character and we get the story through him, but I think with regard to other characters, we do have to realize that we are limited to Harry's view and we aren't normally going to witness things that Harry doesn't witness.

Actually, we do know what Hermione does when she is not with Harry and Ron - she goes to the library and she studies.
Hermione has had classes that the boys aren't in, so obviously she does some activities and has some interactions with others that the boys (and us as readers) don't necessarily know about. The boys didn't know she'd gotten friendly with Krum, after all.

[QUOTE=meesha1971Hermione is the only person who can reveal what she does off page. Ginny can't do that - neither can Harry for that matter. And we still need something in GOF to support it or there is a plot hole.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it qualifies as a plot hole. There is ample opportunity for it to have happened, and she did see Krum socially so it is not beyond reasonability at all.

Melfina

February 22nd, 2007, 5:47 am

Hehehe HagathaChristie, I love your sig pic :)
I do believe Krum and Hermione kissed, why would Ginny lie about it? Hermione could have mentioned it any time to her whenever they sit together talking without the boys.
And I have a feeling it wasn't a forceful hormone-induced sloppy kiss or anything, probably a very sweet kiss that they shared when they had a tender moment alone. Krum and Hermione are hardly the types to kiss like crazed teens. I think outside the moment of the kiss they remained dear friends (the pen pal writing) and never took the relationship further, before and after.

Yoana

February 22nd, 2007, 6:23 pm

Jo publicly admitted that she made a mistake regarding the map. She said that she should have included something on page to show how Harry got it back and neglecting to do so caused confusion amongst the readers. She's not going to make the same mistake twice. Jo is very meticulous with little details - even going so far as to give reference on page to the fact that the students bathe and use the bathroom. Most authors don't pay that much attention to detail, but Jo does because she hates the kind of writing that creates plot holes and raises unanswered questions.

Actually, the bathroom, in both senses, was introduced for plot reasons - Moaning Myrtle and the Egg. It wasn't for punctuality really. If it were, we may justly ask, since the students are never shown brushing their teeth before breakfast, does it mean they don"t Harry ususally goes from bed straight to the Great Hall, does that mean that he doesn't even change after he gets up? We don't even know if there are any bathrooms in the dormitories - what do they do if they have to go to the bathroom at night? And so on. Jo doesn't give that much attention to details, she does it only when it serves the plot or is necessary in the situation described. Many things happen off page.

It's a big deal because it turns Hermione into a deceptive, manipulative person who used Krum, went to great lengths to hide that fact, and deliberately lied about it. It creates a plot hole because there is nothing in GOF to support it - no motive or opportunity for Hermione to have been making out.

Having a prior relationship - even making out - would not be a big deal. But the lengths that Hermione would have to have gone to to hide something like that - as well as deliberately lying to Ron about it make it a big deal. Not to mention what a terrible person that would make Ginny - to toss off such a huge secret of Hermione's without giving any consideration to Hermione's feelings or showing any remorse for it at all.

As much as you want to read into her evasive answers concerning Viktor, she never gives a direct answer whether she was attracted to him or whether they kissed. Never. She doesn't say, "I want to be just friends with him", she says, "The purpose of this is to make friends." Which is pretty evasive. She doesn't say, "He is and has always been just a pal", she says, "I can have a pen pal if I want to!", which is not only evasive, but defensive as well. She is defending her right to privacy. There is not a direct statement from Hermione that can be read only as confirmation that she has never kissed Viktor and has never been attracted to him. If there were, we wouldn't have different interpretations of her words. So she didn't lie, she just evaded the questions, which is very different - because she is not obliged to answer all the questions Harry or Ron may ask her.

It is not canon. Canon only shows that Ginny thinks it is true. There is no canon at all that even remotely supports Ginny's statement.

Harry's internal confirmation, without any hesitation, is on page, therefore canon, and it does support Ginny's statement.

Hermione was never romantically attracted to Krum. She never exhibited any behavior to suggest that she was making out with anyone. Harry never saw anything to support the conclusion. There are no unexplained absences in GOF - there are no instances where Hermione showed up late and/or disheveled - or flustered when asked where she'd been. Harry never saw her with Krum behaving as a couple. Nothing.

All this shows that it just wasn't shown on page for the reader to see and draw conclusions.

Ginny is not Hermione and cannot speak for Hermione without corroborating evidence on page. That is a fact. Her statement can only be considered an assumption until something occurs on page to prove that it is true - and that can only come from Hermione. Nobody else can speak for Hermione's actions off page but Hermione.

Which can happen in Deathly Hallows. Until then, the possibility remains.

vivekgk

February 23rd, 2007, 8:48 pm

Jo publicly admitted that she made a mistake regarding the map. She said that she should have included something on page to show how Harry got it back and neglecting to do so caused confusion amongst the readers.

So, I guess the next rewrite of GoF would have two additional sentences. One for Harry getting the map and another explaining Hermione's 'mysterious' disappearances about which Harry couldn't care less.

Jo never said that she made a mistake, she said that she assumes that most people would figure it out. It only caught my eye because of the scene in PoA where Lupin returned the map to Harry, and because I'd been reading GoF closely in preparation for the release of OoTP. If the big plot hole you're talking about is anything like that, most people wouldn't even notice.

It's a big deal because it turns Hermione into a deceptive, manipulative person who used Krum, went to great lengths to hide that fact, and deliberately lied about it. It creates a plot hole because there is nothing in GOF to support it - no motive or opportunity for Hermione to have been making out.

Or, it turns Hermione into a typical, insecure teenager in a relationship for the first time, who doesn't want to talk about it to her male friends because she's shy about it, and because she doesn't want to risk losing a close friend over a potential romance. I'd say that she's a bit confused about her feelings, and about how to deal with it. It's not that she's planning this grand deception and laughing to herself as the plans come to fruitition, she's just bumbling through a confusing situation.

But the lengths that Hermione would have to have gone to to hide something like that - as well as deliberately lying to Ron about it make it a big deal.

What lengths? By the time Ron asks her about Krum again, it's over, and they're just friends. Ron is still jealous, however, and why should Hermione deliberately try and antagonize him by telling him about kissing Krum? Especially, when it is none of his business? Why is Hermione obligated to reveal this to Ron? How do you figure that Ron or Harry has a right to know about all this?

Hermione took the initiative and asked out Ron on a date. Granted, the invitation was a bit awkward, because Ron kind of forced it out of her by mocking her. It shouldn't matter at all what Hermione got up to with Krum two years before. We didn't see Harry being upset about Ginny's previous relationships. It was the same even with Cho. The only reason discussing Cedric made him uncomfortable was because it always made Cho cry afterwards. He never was angry with Cho for dating Cedric first, even after she'd been showing interest in Harry.

Not to mention what a terrible person that would make Ginny - to toss off such a huge secret of Hermione's without giving any consideration to Hermione's feelings or showing any remorse for it at all.

The kiss occured two years before. I don't see why anyone would think that it is still a big secret. Besides, as she says very clearly, it's only Ron that makes such a big deal of it. Clearly, neither Ginny nor Harry think that it's such a big deal that Hermione and Krum would have kissed. Harry doesn't feel betrayed even though Hermione had never told him. He's unsurprised by it.

Thus, all this talk about "remorse" and "forgiveness" is completely irrelevant. Ron's immaturity and his inability to handle the truth is the issue here. He had to grow up sometime.

The decent thing to do for Ron when he walked in on Ginny and Dean would have been to walk away, and not let them know that they'd been spotted. Ron, however, chose to be inconsiderate and embarass his sister and Dean. Still, Ginny was considerate enough to ask Dean to leave before she started in on Ron. She had more sense than to embarass Ron in Dean's presence.

It is not canon. Canon only shows that Ginny thinks it is true. There is no canon at all that even remotely supports Ginny's statement. Hermione was never romantically attracted to Krum. She never exhibited any behavior to suggest that she was making out with anyone. Harry never saw anything to support the conclusion. There are no unexplained absences in GOF - there are no instances where Hermione showed up late and/or disheveled - or flustered when asked where she'd been. Harry never saw her with Krum behaving as a couple. Nothing.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is canon. As of HBP, Ginny's statement is unchallenged, and even confirmed by Harry. In Ginny's other guess about Tonks, she makes it clear that it's an assumption. She says, "I think mum's trying to...". Ginny's statement does not provide any room for speculation. There's no doubt on her part. There's also nothing to indicate that the kiss/snog didn't happen. No one has denied that it happened. It's irrelevant that it's not shown on-page, because Harry has confirmed it.

Hermione was blushing and stuttering whenever she talked about Krum being romantic. That indicates that she was affected by his charms. If she had shown no interest in Krum at all, why would Hermione be the one that Krum would miss the most? Cho was the person that Cedric would miss the most, and it is later confirmed that they had been seeing each other. Yet, Harry, for all his romantic interest in Cho, never noted anything of the sort to indicate that they were a couple, except for seeing them at the Ball and in the corridor afterwards. He was too worried about the Egg to really notice Hermione. In any case, Hermione had to have responded positively to Krum, because he's still attracted to her, months after the Ball. That indicates that Hermione did not blow him off, and that she encouraged him.

Ginny is not Hermione and cannot speak for Hermione without corroborating evidence on page. That is a fact. Her statement can only be considered an assumption until something occurs on page to prove that it is true - and that can only come from Hermione.

Not at all. Harry seems to think that Ginny would be in the know about something like that, because he confirms Ginny's statement immediately afterwards. Harry, who spends so much time with Hermione would know who her friends were. The confirmation doesn't need to come from Hermione. Few things in the story are confirmed that way. It all depends on how reliable the source is. In this case, Harry seems to think that Ginny is a reliable source of information on Hermione.

Jo would have to jump through hoops to explain why there is no evidence in GOF to support it because it would still create a plot hole in that regard.

Jo wouldn't have to get up from her chair, let alone jump. As seeker pointed out, there would be no plot hole. If someone asks her, she could just say, "Hogwarts is a pretty big place, and Hermione knows a lot of secret passages from hanging out with Harry", and the whole thing would be put to rest. No plot hole. If Harry was able to find mistletoe-free routes to all of his classes, then surely Hermione would be able to find a little niche with a bit of privacy with Krum. Even Ginny was able to do so. Hermione's hair is bushy and untamed all the time except for when she puts it up for parties. So, how would Harry even notice that her hair was off? Even if Harry were a 'hair connoiseur', would Hermione be stupid enough to ave a snogging session with Viktor, and then run to meet Harry and Ron without checking her appearance?

I think it's rather sweet myself. I think it would be better to have your first kiss with someone you love as opposed to some random boy you aren't even attracted to. But that's just me.

You should definitely refrain from watching Shrek. :err:. Sorry, but I couldn't resist. I just don't think that Hermione was optimistic enough to believe that everything would work out and wait 'unspoiled' for her 'true love's first kiss'. That is too idealistic, IMO. It would be a nice fairytale, true.

It would have been nice if Jo had written in a prior relationship for Hermione - with Krum or anyone - but she chose not to do that.

Actually, she did. But others have explained that point very well, IMO.

If it were true, then she would have had to go to great lengths to hide it - particularly considering that Rita Skeeter was digging around for dirt on Hermione. That would also go towards being manipulative and lying.

If anything, Rita bugging around would be an added incentive for Hermione to be careful about meeting Krum. That would also explain why Harry didn't see them being a couple in public. Neither Hermione nor Krum have a wish to be Rita's next victims.

Personally, I think Hermione is a better person than that. She wouldn't stomp all over Krum's feelings in that manner and she would have no reason to lie to Ron if she had dated Krum.

Hermione is a better person than that. All she did was date someone who was interested in her, to see if there was something there. She gave him a chance, realized by June that it wasn't working out, and decided to be just friends with him. It wasn't manipulative, or anything. She knew that it wouldn't be fair to Krum to push him away without giving him a chance. In fact, it's commendable that she is still friends with an ex, while all the others split up on bad terms.

Hermione did not lie to Ron. I don't see where you get that. Ron never asked her if they had ever kissed. Ron never asked her if they'd been dating. All she told him was that he was her pen-pal, which is true. They are pen-pals at that point. Ron never asked her about her feelings for Krum, he just wanted to know why she was still in contact with him, and then commented that Krum wanted to be more than just pen-pals with her. There's absolutely no reference whatsoever to Hermione's feelings. Hermione rolling her eyes at Harry can be interpreted as "Are we still on that?" or "He really needs to get over this".

The main point being, Ron never asked if they'd ever been anything more than friends. Hermione's stand is that they're pen-pals now. She never states that they'd always been just friends, that there never was anything between them.

SnorkackCatcher

February 23rd, 2007, 11:13 pm

Yoana

February 24th, 2007, 4:19 pm

MissHufflepuff

February 24th, 2007, 4:28 pm

What I think is this:
Hermione goes to the library - as always, and sees Krum there. He talks her to her, obviously likes her. She's a 14/15 year year old girl and obviously deeply compliment and maybe a bit in awe.
He talks to her a bit, eventhough she's a bit shy and shies away from him a bit...yet he asks her to the ball and she agrees (maybe she'd been considering ron, but he's obviously hadn't asked her first).
Maybe he kissed her at the ball, just one little kiss (no tongues) and then she turned away, and didn;t ksis him again - but that was it.
I'm sure they saw each other, like afirst, cute relationship...but I doubt much happened. Even though i can see her blushing and being quite in awe of him, i can't see her talking about him as a 'physicla being' like she did to Harry. SHe jsut doesn't seem as open. Hermione seems like she'd be quite shy, and Krum quite resepcting of her views.
And then he left, and she writes to him - like a pen pal.

It's likely he still likes her, but she has to keep saying 'no', because deep down she likes ron. i doubt JK would throw it in in if hermione hadn't kissed him, it was part of hte character development - angered ron and helped speed along the harry/ginny and ron/hermione. Plus she's already said how she doesn't like her characters' first kisses to be with the ones they end up with.

And did she and Krum ever actually meet over the summer?!? Hmmm.

kingwidgit

February 24th, 2007, 6:26 pm

And did she and Krum ever actually meet over the summer?!? Hmmm.
It's kind of implied, off-page, that they did.renata: What happened between Hermione and Viktor Krum during the summer?
JK Rowling replies -> Ron would like to know that, too.
There was a month between the end of school [Cedric died June 24] and the dementor attack in Little Whinging [August 2].
Lupin said "We've set up headquarters somewhere undetectable. It's taken a while..." in reference to 12 Grimmauld Place.
At some point during that month away from school, it becomes apparent to Harry that Ron and Hermione are together while he's stuck alone, without information, at 4 Privet Drive.There was time for Hermione to visit Krum before everyone moved into headquarters, but there's really no canon to prove that she did or didn't and there's always the chance that Ron could just be assuming that Hermione visited Krum.

meesha1971

February 24th, 2007, 7:22 pm

It's kind of implied, off-page, that they did.renata: What happened between Hermione and Viktor Krum during the summer?
JK Rowling replies -> Ron would like to know that, too.
There was a month between the end of school [Cedric died June 24] and the dementor attack in Little Whinging [August 2].
Lupin said "We've set up headquarters somewhere undetectable. It's taken a while..." in reference to 12 Grimmauld Place.
At some point during that month away from school, it becomes apparent to Harry that Ron and Hermione are together while he's stuck alone, without information, at 4 Privet Drive.There was time for Hermione to visit Krum before everyone moved into headquarters, but there's really no canon to prove that she did or didn't and there's always the chance that Ron could just be assuming that Hermione visited Krum.

It's also implied that Hermione was present for the argument between Percy and Mr. Weasley, which occurred sometime during the first week they were home as they were preparing to go to Grimmauld Place.

We have a period of 4 weeks - the majority of which Hermione is staying with the Weasleys. From what is shown in canon, it appears that Hermione spent a few days with her parents and then went to stay with the Weasleys - pretty much the same thing that was done in HBP. Personally, I think that was a matter of protection. Ron and Hermione would both be targets because they are Harry's best friends and have helped him. Voldemort had just returned and they weren't sure what he was going to do yet so I can see them wanting to have Ron and Hermione in a safe place where they could be protected.

And that just adds to the reasons why Hermione couldn't have gone. The timing doesn't work. I really don't believe her parents would have allowed it. Hermione didn't seem all that interested in going. With Voldemort's return, it would have been too much of a risk for her to be going off to another country.

What I think is this:
Hermione goes to the library - as always, and sees Krum there. He talks her to her, obviously likes her. She's a 14/15 year year old girl and obviously deeply compliment and maybe a bit in awe.
He talks to her a bit, eventhough she's a bit shy and shies away from him a bit...yet he asks her to the ball and she agrees (maybe she'd been considering ron, but he's obviously hadn't asked her first).
Maybe he kissed her at the ball, just one little kiss (no tongues) and then she turned away, and didn;t ksis him again - but that was it.
I'm sure they saw each other, like afirst, cute relationship...but I doubt much happened. Even though i can see her blushing and being quite in awe of him, i can't see her talking about him as a 'physicla being' like she did to Harry. SHe jsut doesn't seem as open. Hermione seems like she'd be quite shy, and Krum quite resepcting of her views.
And then he left, and she writes to him - like a pen pal.

Actually, the "physical being" comment was from the movie - not the book. And it was followed by Hermione clarifying that he just watched her study and "it's a bit annoying". I don't consider the movies canon, but I do find this interesting because Steve Kloves has said that he is in constant contact with Jo when writing the scripts and he always asks Jo about stuff like this. So I do think it's significant that the movie showed Hermione being annoyed by Krum and didn't give any indication of a kiss.

It's likely he still likes her, but she has to keep saying 'no', because deep down she likes ron. i doubt JK would throw it in in if hermione hadn't kissed him, it was part of hte character development - angered ron and helped speed along the harry/ginny and ron/hermione. Plus she's already said how she doesn't like her characters' first kisses to be with the ones they end up with.

And did she and Krum ever actually meet over the summer?!? Hmmm.

Actually, Jo said that she wanted Harry and Ron to kiss other girls first. She didn't say anything about Hermione in that regard. Personally, I find that suspicious. She has Ginny make this huge revelation that comes completely out of nowhere, but doesn't address it at all? The closest she comes is saying that Ron thinks something happened. That is very suspicious - particularly with her being quick to emphasize that she was not trying to show physical experience.

I'd say there might have been a quick peck the night of the ball. That would have been polite and I can see Hermione allowing that. But she just didn't show any attraction to Krum beyond wanting to be friends so I don't see anything more than that ever happening.

narcissa_cissy

February 24th, 2007, 7:49 pm

i think they did. i mean asking her to visit over the summer doesn't take that long...

kingwidgit

February 24th, 2007, 7:50 pm

It's also implied that Hermione was present for the argument between Percy and Mr. Weasley
Nowhere is it implied that Hermione was present for that argument. Just that she's aware there was a falling out with Percy, which is consistent with her stay at headquarters with the Weasleys, she'd know what they know.

The time frame allows for 5-6 weeks from end of school to Harry's casting the Patronus. 1-2 weeks from end of school to them moving into headquarters. This allows time in which Hermione and family could take a quick holiday together. Just because Voldemort is back doesn't mean that Hermione's Muggle parents are aware of who he is and the danger involved. Add to that, Voldemort/Death Eaters aren't privately/openly taking hostile actions of any kind, meaning it's relatively safe to travel.
Hermione didn't seem all that interested in going.Canon? I don't recall it being said she wasn't interested in going to see Viktor. She clammed up about it in front of Ron/Harry, yes, but that's not the same as being uninterested.

magicalmysteryg

February 24th, 2007, 8:00 pm

. She clammed up about it in front of Ron/Harry, yes, but that's not the same as being uninterested.

exactly. its not talked about much because the books are told from harry's perspective. hermione doesn't feel comfterble discussing her relationships with him and ron. from harry's perspective, hermione wouldn't have been talking about krum much, Later she discusses her date with cormac with harry. while she is more mature here, she also feels more comfterble because she has no romantic interest in cormac.
this indicates she may have like viktor, because she felt uncomfterble talking to ron and harry about him. hermione would never act genuinely giggly about a boy in front of ron and harry, because its awkward for them. but that doesnt mean she didnt like him.

Yoana

February 24th, 2007, 8:36 pm

HedwigOwl

February 24th, 2007, 8:43 pm

I'd assumed from what was said in GoF that they were seeing each other in the background (e.g. the 'would most miss' thing, and Krum saying that Hermione talked about Harry 'often', presumably there to indicate an offscreen relationship), and that this would most likely include some kissing. It was nice to see that confirmed in HBP.

As for it not being more obviously shown -- well, we didn't see the initial pre-Yule Ball meetings either, or for that matter any romantic scenes between Remus and Tonks before the end of HBP, or more than the briefest hints of Bill/Fleur before their engagement was announced, or anything at all of how Dean got together with Ginny, and so on. JKR seems to make the reasonable assumption that it doesn't need that much detail about these side relationships -- the important thing is that they're taking place, they don't concern Harry directly.

I've never seen why any of this would be a problem -- unless of course you have a very idealised view of Hermione, or of relationships.

SnorkackCatcher - nice post. As you say, there are enough hints so the reader can figure out the relationships, not every little detail needs to be shown on page.

Even Harry's & Ginny's relationship in the last part of HBP isn't given that much detail. Harry & Ginny spend weeks together, we only get an overview, but I doubt anyone would miss how important a relationship that is for Harry.

Likewise, there's enough written about Hermione & Krum to understand they had a romantic relationship at one point. As another poster points out, 5 months after the Yule Ball, Krum is checking to make sure Harry's not interested in Hermione because 'she talks about him all the time' -- indicating that Krum & Hermione are still spending time together dating.

sparkly

February 25th, 2007, 1:21 am

exactly. its not talked about much because the books are told from harry's perspective. hermione doesn't feel comfterble discussing her relationships with him and ron. from harry's perspective, hermione wouldn't have been talking about krum much, Later she discusses her date with cormac with harry. while she is more mature here, she also feels more comfterble because she has no romantic interest in cormac.
this indicates she may have like viktor, because she felt uncomfterble talking to ron and harry about him. hermione would never act genuinely giggly about a boy in front of ron and harry, because its awkward for them. but that doesnt mean she didnt like him.

I think JKR kept much of the interaction between Hermione and Viktor because she intended to use it in book 6 to send Ron in Lavender's direction. Ron was noticing Lavender before his argument with Ginny, but it was only after he learned that Hermione had kissed Viktor that he paid Lavender much attention.

IMO, JKR wrote Hermione and Viktor brilliantly. She left enough hints in GOF to indicate that they could have been together, while at the same time leaving enough uncertainty that Ron could tell himself that Hermione didn't like Viktor that much. The revelation in HBP has to have a strong impact on Ron, strong enough to cause him to doubt Hermione's invitation to Slughorn's party and cause him to notice Lavender. At the same time, Hermione's interactions with Viktor had to be sufficiently in the background so that Ron doesn't dismiss Ginny's words outright. I think it was brilliant.

magicalmysteryg

February 25th, 2007, 3:30 am

I think JKR kept much of the interaction between Hermione and Viktor because she intended to use it in book 6 to send Ron in Lavender's direction. Ron was noticing Lavender before his argument with Ginny, but it was only after he learned that Hermione had kissed Viktor that he paid Lavender much attention.

IMO, JKR wrote Hermione and Viktor brilliantly. She left enough hints in GOF to indicate that they could have been together, while at the same time leaving enough uncertainty that Ron could tell himself that Hermione didn't like Viktor that much. The revelation in HBP has to have a strong impact on Ron, strong enough to cause him to doubt Hermione's invitation to Slughorn's party and cause him to notice Lavender. At the same time, Hermione's interactions with Viktor had to be sufficiently in the background so that Ron doesn't dismiss Ginny's words outright. I think it was brilliant.

i wasn't disagreeing with you. i think its purposefully, and perfectly, ambiguous. But I do think that it is more likely that she kissed him.

sparkly

February 25th, 2007, 4:39 am

i wasn't disagreeing with you. i think its purposefully, and perfectly, ambiguous. But I do think that it is more likely that she kissed him.

Sorry! I wasn't clear - I was just elaborating on your comment. I think Hermione kissed Viktor, too, and JKR deliberately wrote in the ambiguity.

MissHufflepuff

February 25th, 2007, 12:03 pm

JJFinch

February 25th, 2007, 2:05 pm

I reckon they kissed - they had plenty of opportunity to: some time during the Yule Ball, when they disappeared together at the end of GoF to *say goodbye*, and remember, Krum invited Hermione to visit him during the summer holidays after GoF, and it's quite possible she did and likely something happened there, and she didn't want to tell Harry or Ron because Ron would tease her and Harry would tell Ron if she onfided it to Harry alone.

taupimu

February 25th, 2007, 7:23 pm

I just think that Hermione is so far advanced in the social and emotional areas that she was given an opportunity to have a relationship other than Harry and Ron. Most likely she did kiss Viktor and probably went to visit him. There appears to have been time over the summer. The first kiss probably came at Hogwarts before the 2nd task.

vivekgk

February 26th, 2007, 1:58 am

Good posts by kingwidgit, sparkly, MissHufflePuff, magicalmysteryg and SnorkackCatcher.

It's also implied that Hermione was present for the argument between Percy and Mr. Weasley, which occurred sometime during the first week they were home as they were preparing to go to Grimmauld Place.

I've checked the text on this one, and it's not implied anywhere that Hermione was present for the argument with Percy. Just that she was aware of it. It's more likely that she was told about it, just like in Harry's case. The only times she is mentioned s when she exchanges a look with the Weasleys. The entire story is told to Harry by Ron and the others. Hermione only contributes towards the end, adding that Percy must take the Prophet seriously. Nothing at all to indicate that Hermione was there, seeing how she didn't take any part in the narration.

We have a period of 4 weeks - the majority of which Hermione is staying with the Weasleys.

It doesn't seem so. It took awhile to set up the headquarters, and it would be unnecessary for Hermione to go to the Burrow first, and stay there while 12GP was being set up, especially since they'd all only have to move again soon. It would make more sense to have Hermione join them after the move. Which gives us at least a week. That's time enough for a short vacation to Bulgaria. This point is renforced by Jo's reply, which indicates that Ron is not sure if Hermione visited Krum or not. If Hermione had joined them at the Burrow after a couple of days, why whould Ron be unsure?

Snape was inside Voldemort's inner circle. He left to rejoin Voldemort as the Order's spy on the night Cedric died. He'd told them that Voldemort wasn't attempting anything yet, so as to not tip off the ministry. An attack on a muggleborn student, especially someone as well-known as Hermione Granger wouldn't go unnoticed, and the resulting publicity is exactly the thing that Voldemort wants to avoid. Thus, Hermione is relatively safe at her parents'. If that were not the case, wouldn't the Order have adviced her against going on a ski trip in France, where 'accidents' could happen?

As for her parents not approving of it, I don't see why not. Or, she could have taken her parents along with her. That's a possibility.

So I do think it's significant that the movie showed Hermione being annoyed by Krum and didn't give any indication of a kiss.

I think that Cloves wanted to follow the books there, and let Harry's be the first on-screen/page kiss. The story is about him, after all. That's the simplest reason.

On the other hand, it is very, very significant that Hermione is seen to be attracted to Krum from the beginning. This follows and builds upon what is shown in the books, where Hermione admires him for being brave, and is likely to be a foreshadowing, so as to not cause a confusion among the movie audiences when Ginny tells Ron they've snogged.

Actually, Jo said that she wanted Harry and Ron to kiss other girls first. She didn't say anything about Hermione in that regard. Personally, I find that suspicious.

I don't. Jo's sentence made sense. I strongly doubt that Jo wanted Hermione to kiss another girl first as well, and it came as no surprise to me that Hermione's name wasn't included in that sentence :lol:.

Seriously, the question was about Harry and Ginny's relationship. Ron was just mentioned in passing.

Regarding physical experience, that particular statement is about Ron, not Hermione. Jo says that Ron is quite immature compared to Harry and Hermione, and that he needed to make himself worthy of Hermione.

Making himself worthy of Hermione didn't mean necessarily physical experience, but Ron had to grow up emotionally. Now, Ron's had the meaningless physical experience and knows better because of it.

All it says is that physical experience was not essential for Ron, but he had it, and is wiser because of it. In short, there's nothing about Hermione here, just that Ron's had some physical experience.

But she just didn't show any attraction to Krum beyond wanting to be friends so I don't see anything more than that ever happening.

Hermione has admired Krum from the beginning of GoF, and comments to Harry that it was very brave of him to do what he did. She knew that Ron was a huge fan of Krum, and probably thought that he'd be a good beau, since her two best friends already approved of him. The fact that Krum was crazy about her also added to the appeal. She's seen blushing whenever she mentions Krum doing something romantic. She has difficulty in speaking properly when he talks to her, and is visibly flustered in his presence.

Hermione never says that she just wants to be friends with Krum. She makes a statement which is generic, vague, and even a bit defensive, that the objective of the tournament is to meet foreign wizards and make friends with them. That does not say anything about the nature of her feelings for Krum. In fact, this is the type of reply that Hermione gives whenever she's questioned about Krum. If there were nothing between them, why doesn't she say it out clearly? She has no problem doing that when she's paired with Harry by the press.

magicalmysteryg

February 26th, 2007, 2:15 am

If there were nothing between them, why doesn't she say it out clearly? She has no problem doing that when she's paired with Harry by the press.
good point. she is careful never to falt out deny tht they had a relationship. She has never had a guy interested in her before, and doesn't know how to handle that around her friends, and she chooses to be ambiguous about it. if they were truly just good friends, i don't think she'd hesitate to tell that to the press.

rookie

February 26th, 2007, 6:01 am

:lol: Aww, everyone's ganging up on poor meesha. Sheesh, the last time I was here this thread was only on the second version.

Now, to me, the central issue to this question is whether or not Ginny is a trustworthy source. Since everyone has different interpretations of Ginny's and Hermione's characters and are never going to agree, I'm going to ignore all of that and just focus on the passage in question.

In the corridor, in the heat of the moment, Ginny makes 5 different assertions.

Ron's never snogged anyone in his life. Well, as we have never seen Ron snogging anyone prior to this, and given his squeamish attitude towards snogging, we can assume this to be true.

Ron's best kiss has been from Aunt Muriel. Well, we (Harry) did not see this firsthand, but given Ron's volcanic reaction, we can assume that this is true as well.

She's seen Ron hoping to get a kiss from Fleur. This is true; we've seen him doing this in GoF and HBP.

Harry's snogged Cho Chang. Whether or not you argue that Ginny knows this for a fact or is simply making an assumption, we know this is true, since Harry does not refute it either out loud or internally, and we have that scene at Christmas in OotP.

Hermione's snogged Viktor Krum. Ah, the tricky one.

Again, I'm not going to get into a heated debate on what Hermione's and Ginny's characters are like. But of Ginny's four previous assertions, all have been shown to be true. Maybe I'm just being lazy, but if Ginny is lashing out at Ron with truths the whole time during the scene, why is it so hard to believe she is telling the truth till the very end?

rookie

CelestLBeing

February 27th, 2007, 3:13 am

Again, I'm not going to get into a heated debate on what Hermione's and Ginny's characters are like. But of Ginny's four previous assertions, all have been shown to be true. Maybe I'm just being lazy, but if Ginny is lashing out at Ron with truths the whole time during the scene, why is it so hard to believe she is telling the truth till the very end?

Very good point!

Hermione was on Viktor like a monkey on a cupcake. :rotfl:

vivekgk

February 27th, 2007, 4:11 am

Hermione was on Viktor like a monkey on a cupcake. :rotfl:

I don't know if that's funny or disturbing :err:. I'm gonna go with funny :lol:.

DumblysArmy

February 27th, 2007, 8:24 am

The closest she comes is saying that Ron thinks something happened.Why do you keep saying Jo said that Ron thinks something happened, when her actual words were "it dawns on Ron"? Ok, you have an interpretation, but using it as if Jo said it this way is not quite correct, in my opinion. After all, it could very well be interpreted differently, especially since "it dawns on him" and "he thinks" are not absolute synonyms and therefore not interchangable.
I agree with Yoana, there is a difference between "thinks" and "dawns".
Jo has said that it dawns on Ron.

intr.v. dawned, dawn*ing, dawns

1. To begin to be perceived or understood: Realization of the danger soon dawned on us.

When using the correct definition it's understood that Ron is beginning to realize that Hermione and Krum kissed.

To substitute "thinks" for "dawns" would completely change Jo's statement. It would then be understood that Ron is pondering that Hermione and Krum kissed.

vivekgk

February 27th, 2007, 3:11 pm

Curse you, CelestLBeing, May your best present be already opened when you wake up on Christmas morning! I can't stop imagining the monkey on the cupcake scene. The slobbering, the slurping sounds, Ewwww!

I agree with DumblysArmy about 'dawns on'. If Jo had used it inside the story, it could've meant something else, like the time Harry 'realizes' that Cedric was nothing but a 'pretty boy', after he learns he asked Cho to the dance. However, Jo says that in an interview, and thus, I can't see any reason for ambiguity there.

chicklitbkwm

February 28th, 2007, 3:48 am

vivekgk

February 28th, 2007, 2:16 pm

I think Hermione, like any girl, would be flattered with Krum's attention. And sure, why wouldn't she kiss him? I don't think it would have been something like snogging (she was only 14 in the book!) but probably a gentle kiss.

Whatever it was, I don't think it would be of much importance, unless it was more than just a kiss, and then it could complicate things for Ron/Hermione.

For one thing, Hermione was 15 in September of GoF, the same age Ginny is in HBP. So, I don't think that age would have been an issue.

Even if it was more than just a kiss, how exactly would it complicate things? These incidents occured two years before, and they've all changed since then. Hermione has asked out Ron. So, why would it matter that Hermione snogged her date to the ball a couple years before, when Ron hadn't even started showing interest in her?

sparkly

February 28th, 2007, 3:00 pm

For one thing, Hermione was 15 in September of GoF, the same age Ginny is in HBP. So, I don't think that age would have been an issue.

Even if it was more than just a kiss, how exactly would it complicate things? These incidents occured two years before, and they've all changed since then. Hermione has asked out Ron. So, why would it matter that Hermione snogged her date to the ball a couple years before, when Ron hadn't even started showing interest in her?

Ron reacted badly to the news of the kiss because it was the first time he realized that Hermione and Viktor had been closer that he previously thought. Ron had to go through several stages of acceptance until he finally realized what you said in your last paragraph - that the kissing happened two years ago, Hermione had asked him, Ron, to a party, and they weren't even together when the kissing happened. The news of the kiss did indeed complicate things between Ron and Hermione, and it was necessary for them to go through that complication in order for their relationship to begin.

vivekgk

March 1st, 2007, 5:32 am

The news of the kiss did indeed complicate things between Ron and Hermione, and it was necessary for them to go through that complication in order for their relationship to begin.

I think you misunderstood me. chicklitbkwm was saying that it would create further problems in Book 7 if it were a snog and not just a kiss. Ron knows by now that snogging isn't such a big deal. He and Lavender had been attached at the mouth for months, and yet, there's nothing between them now. So, why would Ron think that Hermione would still have feelings for Krum?

HedwigOwl

March 1st, 2007, 5:42 am

I think you misunderstood me. chicklitbkwm was saying that it would create further problems in Book 7 if it were a snog and not just a kiss. Ron knows by now that snogging isn't such a big deal. He and Lavender had been attached at the mouth for months, and yet, there's nothing between them now. So, why would Ron think that Hermione would still have feelings for Krum?

:rotfl:(funny description of Ron & Lavender...and accurate)

Good point. It will be telling when Ron sees Krum again (or sees Krum talking with Hermione). We'll know if he's coming to terms with trusting in his newly forming relationship with Hermione. Even though he knows Krum and Hermione have snogged in the past.

CelestLBeing

March 6th, 2007, 11:12 pm

Good point. It will be telling when Ron sees Krum again (or sees Krum talking with Hermione). We'll know if he's coming to terms with trusting in his newly forming relationship with Hermione. Even though he knows Krum and Hermione have snogged in the past.

It will show us if Ron is ready for a mature relationship with Hermione when he sees Krum again. Ron needed to grow up considerably. He and Hermione weren't together when she and Viktor snogged and it really was none of his business. We will see if he has grown up in book seven I guess.

LoonyGirl

March 7th, 2007, 2:14 am

I think "none of his business" is going a bit far. I mean it's obvious that Ron has a crush on Hermione in GoF so wouldn't he be sensitive to if she was "going" with somebody else? That's just natrual interest. >_>...

Personally, I thought that HBP cleared this up for us. I mean Ginny's prolly Hermione's best girlfriend so I would think she'd know of all people, what happened between Hermione and Krum. Adding the quote from JKR about how both Harry and Hermione have had some "action" on top of it all, I'd say it definitly say it points to a kiss at the very least.

CelestLBeing

March 7th, 2007, 5:41 am

I think "none of his business" is going a bit far. I mean it's obvious that Ron has a crush on Hermione in GoF so wouldn't he be sensitive to if she was "going" with somebody else? That's just natrual interest. >_>...

Well of course it was none of his business. Just because he is her friend doesn't make it his business. And just because he had a crush on her doesn't make it his business, and it certainly doesn't give him the right to be a prat about it. If he wanted what she did and who she kiss to be his business he should have man'd up and been her boyfriend long ago. If he had she wouldn't have gone out with Krum in the first place and certainly wouldn't have snogged him. Ron knew it too, otherwise he would have asked about it outright instead of suctions hips lips to lav lav's.

Wright1771

March 7th, 2007, 8:14 am

Even if Hermione says she didn't, would Ron believe her. And, does Ron need to 'grow up'......yes!
When Hermione went out with Victor, she and Ron were 'just good friends!'

kingwidgit

March 7th, 2007, 8:26 am

Let's leave the harsh comments about Ron out of this thread, please.

"Did Hermione Kiss Viktor" is the topic.

vivekgk

March 7th, 2007, 9:54 am

Ron knew it too, otherwise he would have asked about it outright instead of suctions hips lips to lav lav's.

Is it a contest? :lol:

mysterious

March 7th, 2007, 11:24 am

Is it a contest?

Looks like it, because first he sees Hermione snogging Krum, then Harry snogs Cho, if all this was less now his little sister is snogging her boyfriend and after that saying things about him not having kissed someone, so I think Ron snogged Lavender just to prove the point that he also can snog, moreover it was a welcome change for him. :rotfl:

YellowRose

March 7th, 2007, 11:29 am

I agree with Harry himself...'probably'. And I also think it makes no differeance either way.

kingwidgit

March 7th, 2007, 11:32 am

Topic?

ETA: Thank you, YellowRose, for finding the topic. :)

jedi_jon

March 7th, 2007, 11:45 am

I agree with Harry himself...'probably'. And I also think it makes no differeance either way.

I think more than anything i HOPE Hermione and Krum kissed (im not so sure about snogged . . . in some ways kissing would be more grown up, and especialy given her age).

Also, i havent read everything, but I dont understand how we see Ron likes Hermione as anything more than a friend at GoF? Maybe deep down he does...but i got the impression he hadnt considered it up that point.

sparkly

March 7th, 2007, 11:53 am

I think more than anything i HOPE Hermione and Krum kissed (im not so sure about snogged . . . in some ways kissing would be more grown up, and especialy given her age).

Also, i havent read everything, but I dont understand how we see Ron likes Hermione as anything more than a friend at GoF? Maybe deep down he does...but i got the impression he hadnt considered it up that point.

I think Ron exhibited jealousy at the Yule Ball, and every time after that Viktor's name came up. However, I'm not sure Ron was aware why he was feeling that way - he might have convinced himself that Viktor was a rival of Harry's and Hermione was "fraternizing with the enemy". Ron had to go through a stage where his feelings for his friend Hermione were transitioning to something else, and he mistook his reaction to mean that Hermione was betraying Harry, when in reality Ron was jealous.

jedi_jon

March 7th, 2007, 11:56 am

I think Ron exhibited jealousy at the Yule Ball, and every time after that Viktor's name came up. However, I'm not sure Ron was aware why he was feeling that way - he might have convinced himself that Viktor was a rival of Harry's and Hermione was "fraternizing with the enemy". Ron had to go through a stage where his feelings for his friend Hermione were transitioning to something else, and he mistook his reaction to mean that Hermione was betraying Harry, when in reality Ron was jealous.

ok i can accept that. But that brings me to my point: how would Hermione, at this point, know that Ron liked her? And so what is to stop her kissing Krum(i again emphasise KISSING). Except her age.

sparkly

March 7th, 2007, 12:02 pm

ok i can accept that. But that brings me to my point: how would Hermione, at this point, know that Ron liked her? And so what is to stop her kissing Krum(i again emphasise KISSING). Except her age.

Oh, I agree. There was nothing to prevent Hermione from kissing Viktor, which is what I think happened. Hermione was 15 and certainly old enough to date a boy and kiss him.

anabel

March 7th, 2007, 12:05 pm

If Ginny says she kissed him, I see no reason to doubt that, even though Ginny said it to provoke Ron.

mysterious

March 7th, 2007, 12:24 pm

If Ginny says she kissed him, I see no reason to doubt that, even though Ginny said it to provoke Ron.

Um, what I don't get is what difference would it make if Hermione kissed Viktor? :hmm:

I mean she must not have kissed Viktor, but the damage done by Ginny and Harry's assumption have been done....moreover I don't see a reason as to why she didn't kiss Viktor...Ginny suggests so and so does Harry....:shrug:

Jetty

March 7th, 2007, 1:45 pm

If Ginny says she kissed him, I see no reason to doubt that, even though Ginny said it to provoke Ron.

That it's just reason to doubt, that Ginny provoked Ron. I suppose, JKR would write about this kiss, if it happened. Of course we can't be sure that it didn't happen, because JKR describes events, that Harry watches, and possibly Harry missed it. And Hermione wasn't spreading a lot of information about their relationship. May be we will learn it exactly :p

jordmundt6

March 7th, 2007, 4:06 pm

She gave Ron every opportunity to declare himself and he refused to do so. He seemed to take her for granted, as if he owned her and could expect her to be at his beck and call if no one else prettier was willing to go out with him--and that's just WRONG. As far as Hermione kissing Krum--so what? From the context of Ginny's outburst and Harry's conclusion, it sounds like it happened once or twice max. Nothing Hermione could have done (that isn't R-rated and CLEARLY nothing of that sort happened) would justify or even excuse Ron's behavior. He made out with a girl he neither respected nor liked for 6 months to--well, I suppose I could be charitable and say it was "to gain experience" but really, it wasn't. It was to punish Hermione for betraying him, for, in his mind, CHEATING on him, with Krum. That's utterly ridiculous and COMPLETELY INEXCUSABLE.:grumble::argh::argh::argh::argh:

SSJ_Jup81

March 7th, 2007, 4:20 pm

jordmundt6

March 7th, 2007, 4:25 pm

He never thought it out that much. He felt betrayed--cheated upon--and Hermione told him the honest truth. The problem with Ron is sometimes he gets hung up on some ridiculous idea and it no longer matters to him what the truth is (Harry in GoF is the other major example, but I'd throw in the Yule Brawl as a starter to his horrendous behavior in HBP).

The thing that me about this is that Ron seems so incredibly jealous and unreasonable and Hermione so hurt by this that if they DO end up together (and I pray that they don't) their marriage won't be the second coming of Molly and Arthur Weasley so much as it'll be the return of Eileen and Mr. Snape (sorry, I forgot his first name). However, that's a discussion for another thread.

mysterious

March 7th, 2007, 4:32 pm

SSJ_Jup81

March 7th, 2007, 4:39 pm

Well you are being outrageously honest out there. :lol: But you are right, Hermione acted as a girl is supposed to act and she dropped some anvil sized hints (if I remember correctly Jo had mentioned that) but Ron was like Hermione has said a person with such a little emotional level that he never got on understanding these emotions and hints. Yeah, pretty much, which is why I don't blame Ron for missing the hints Hermione threw at him.Why do think that Hermione not telling Ron was lying to him? She is not Ron's girlfriend or wife or anybody for that matter, who has to tell Ron that she kissed somebody. I don't think she did anything wrong by not telling him if she indeed kissed Krum.As I already said, Hermione said that she and Viktor were friends (more than once), and "friends" don't usually "snog". He likes her, and to him, probably felt that she was already taken and got upset over it; not rightfully so, though, since he did over-react, but it's typical with Ron's character (but I found it interesting how he was trying to get back in good with her right after Christmas break). That's my interpretation, anyway.

mysterious

March 7th, 2007, 5:00 pm

As I already said, Hermione said that she and Viktor were friends (more than once), and "friends" don't usually "snog".

Do you remember when Hermione told Ron that they were just friends? If I am not mistaken then she did that when Krum was departing, and by that time, I am sure that there was nothing left between them then, they were nothing but friends, so why will she bother about how her relationship with Krum was. I mean if I had an affair with someone and then we just gave up and become friends, and if someone asks me about our relationship now, I will say that we are friends, why will I bother to tell about the past as to we were more than friends and that we had snogged or something....I think the same situation was with Hermione, therefore she wasn't exactly lying to Ron, it is just that she was not being entirely honest. ;)

vivekgk

March 7th, 2007, 5:19 pm

Hermione struck me as being extremely ambiguous where Ron was concerned. It's like one minute, she's showing she wants his attention, and then the next minute, it's like she's trying to deny ever having those types of feelings. We girls aren't very easy to read, imo. It's like we drop hints, without dropping hints.

I think you explained Hermione's behaviour yourself, in that last sentence. It's funny how we guys get hounded for saying something like that, and girls can say it all they want. Unfair!!! :grumble:

I think that Hermione was confused, because she was attracted to Ron, who wasn't showing the slightest interest, and she was also affected by Krum's advances towards her. She too is a teenager, and all this is new to her as well, however much she might have read about it. It's likely that she didn't think that Ron would ever return her affections, and decided to settle for Krum, whom she thought both Harry and Ron would approve of. I think that she decided to give him a chance, to see if she could make things work with him, because he was open about his feelings, and thus, deserved to be given a chance. And the kissing was part of that.

That aside, I think with Ron, he needed her to be completely obvious and just say so, not drop subtle hints.
*snip snip*
Of course, I doubt this applies to all guys, so correct me if I'm wrong.

I originally wrote a joke here, but decided to be magnanimous and treat you to my infinite wisom instead :cool:.

The reason why subtle hints don't often work is that sometimes, guys tend to interpret signals wrongly, and land themselves in big trouble. Afterwards, they're like scalded cats, and prefer to play it safe and not take risks. If they're insecure about themselves, the problem is compounded.

In Ron's case, he's very insecure, and just can't bring himself to believe that Hermione would find him fanciable. He needs reassurance, and Hermione isn't willing to take that risk and make herself vulnerable, because she's not that secure either, when it comes to Ron. Or, maybe she's a bit too proud. But, in the end , she did make a move, even if it took Lavender hitting on Ron to bring that about.

The idea that Krum and Hermione snogged upsets him so much because he wanted to be the first, and because he can't really digest the fact that he's the only one who hasn't had any action.

He was a stupid teenage guy; isn't that normal? At that time that he said it, though, I don't think he fully "liked" her in that way, ya know?

Sure, but that wasn't the issue jordmundt6 was talking about. It's the fact that he assumed that Hermione could never get a date, that he thought she'd lie to Neville just to avoid going with him, that gets Hermione worked up. It's wrong of Ron to think that about a friend. Basically, he's saying that she's so ugly that no one would want her, and that't not the sort of thing you'd say to a girl's face, no matter what. That's not just stupid, that's insensitive and inconsiderate. By comparison, Krum is a real prince.

I don't agree with this fully. He had to like her to some extent to bother sticking with her...

I think that it had to do with the fact that Lavender was showing interest in him. That must have done good things to his ego.

Personally, I felt it was because he felt Hermione lied to him. She said that they were only friends, and here's Ginny implying that there was possibly more to it than that. To Ron, "friends" don't "snog", was the impression I was getting.

Hermione never said that they'd always been friends. The closest she came to saying that Krum was her friend was when she said that she could have a pen-pal if she wanted. And it was true of the time.

Ron's anger was mainly because Ginny laughed at him for his lack of experience. It had to have stung something bad, coming from his younger sister.