Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5

Sorry, Lillbet, I lapsed into game-show persona there. :p

I agree, if Harry dies then it would be meaningless if Voldemort survives and escapes justice. On the other hand, if Harry dies and takes Voldemort with him, that would certainly be in line with the "moral" and "unpredictable" streak we've seen in the books so far.

If Harry dies while defeating Voldermort, it makes the prophecy meaningless. If JKR was going to kill both, I can't see her establishing the prophecy as a major plot device. But she has devoted a lot of the story-line to the prophecy, and that tells me one or the other will survive the confrontation. I seriously doubt the survivor will be Voldermort, so it most likely will be Harry who lives.

If Harry dies while defeating Voldermort, it makes the prophecy meaningless. If JKR was going to kill both, I can't see her establishing the prophecy as a major plot device. But she has devoted a lot of the story-line to the prophecy, and that tells me one or the other will survive the confrontation. I seriously doubt the survivor will be Voldermort, so it most likely will be Harry who lives.

Agreed! Dont die Harry!

I think he will die in his fight with Voldemort, but that he has an accidental horcrux out there and that he will come back to life shortly after his death.

I have always felt that Ginny has given Harry more purpose than just defeating the Voldemort and saving the world, but I have never thought about her giving him a potential life after DH, and now I think about it you are quite right.


:huh: Hmmm... I don't know. I mean Ginny obiously gives Harry a reason to live, but really, what about Hermionie and Ron, thery were the only "family" he knew and he was willing to leave them behind to go after voldermort. Besides deep down I think Ginny is going to be the barrier seperating life and death in the end anyway. Dumbledore always said the one thing harry had that voldermort never understood was love and voldermort might use that to his advantage. He might use Ginny to weaken harry. In the end Harry might die fromt the effort it takes to defeat the dark lord. But he is not a horcrux. If he was a part of voldermort's soul he would not be trying to murder harry I mean that is like suicide pretty much. That is killing a part of your soul. Even Voldermort has a mind.

Sorry, Lillbet, I lapsed into game-show persona there. :p

Next you'll be telling me what I've won. Hope it's something good! ;) :D


If Harry dies while defeating Voldermort, it makes the prophecy meaningless. If JKR was going to kill both, I can't see her establishing the prophecy as a major plot device. But she has devoted a lot of the story-line to the prophecy, and that tells me one or the other will survive the confrontation. I seriously doubt the survivor will be Voldermort, so it most likely will be Harry who lives.

You've hit the nail on the head- the prophecy is a plot device. A plot device which, as Dumbledore pointed out, would be rendered moot if either Harry or Voldemort walked away. There's one book left and one of them might. We don't know this. Yet.

While we're at it, let's think about a plot device. A plot device is defined thus:

a person or an object introduced to a story to affect or advance the plot.

The prophecy does that- it advances the plot and makes us think the ending will come about a certain way. But it's not the only plot device and not the only thing that informs readers and points them toward the ending. While the prophecy says "either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...", there may be a twist at the end (plot twists are also a form of plot device) that renders the prophesy moot.

One of the reasons I'm able to entertain the idea that Harry will die and take Voldemort with him is that Sybil Trelawney was vague enough in her prophesizing that readers thought she meant Neville for a bit.

Look at another one of her predictions:

The second prediction occurred during the events of The Prisoner of Azkaban'. Trelawney again fell into a trance and recited:

"It will happen tonight. The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers. His servant has been chained these 12 years. Tonight, before midnight... the servant will break free and set out to rejoin his master. The Dark Lord will rise again with his servant's aid, greater and more terrible than he ever was. Tonight... before midnight... the servant... will set out... to rejoin... his master...."

This prophecy was fulfilled when Peter Pettigrew's true identity was revealed and he escaped to rejoin Voldemort.

When I first read that I, like most folks, thought it was Sirius she was referring to. Totally valid assumption- he was suspected of having killed a lot of folks and everyone thought he was evil and therefore allied with Voldemort, he had been in Azkaban for 12 years, he broke out of prison, etc. The plot twist was that it was Peter, who had been a rat for 12 years (being chained to his animagus form perhaps?), and was rejoining his master.

Sticking to the conventions of storytelling that everyone seems to be so fond of, it's obvious that Voldemort will die, so that's a given. He's afraid of death, he's got to be punished, and Azkaban, being the only real punishment in the wizarding world isn't enough. We want Voldemort's blood, right? Well, I think we're going to get it. However, rather than the prophecy coming true as most of us assume- Harry kills Voldemort and we all live happily ever after- I think there's going to be another plot twist and Harry will lose his life as well.

Given Trelawney's track record and the vagueness of her prophecies I wouldn't be at all surprised if this were the outcome. These books have included so many twists and turns, that expectiing Harry to survive just out of hand, because "OMG, he just HAS to!" seems ridiculous.

I would be very disappointd if harry died in book 7. He is the hero of the series, it wouldn't be right for him to fail. I think lots of other people will die, obviously he needs to finish it off solo, but i would not be happy if he died.

If Harry dies while defeating Voldermort, it makes the prophecy meaningless. If JKR was going to kill both, I can't see her establishing the prophecy as a major plot device. But she has devoted a lot of the story-line to the prophecy, and that tells me one or the other will survive the confrontation. I seriously doubt the survivor will be Voldermort, so it most likely will be Harry who lives.Over the last month I have been convincing myself that Harry will die - that he'll have to sacrifice himself somehow. But you are right about the propehcy - why base a whole book on it if both Harry and Voldemort die. That is such good thinking - it is so obvious.

Can JKR possibly let Harry die and let Voldemort live? It is a frightening thought. Even if he was left say, without his Horcruxes or even without his powers, I can't imagine how I'd feel walking away from the series. I'm off to change my post in "are you a seer..."

Live. I almost wish he'd die, but judging from things Jo has said in interviews, I think he'll live.

The prophecy does that- it advances the plot and makes us think the ending will come about a certain way. But it's not the only plot device and not the only thing that informs readers and points them toward the ending. While the prophecy says "either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...", there may be a twist at the end (plot twists are also a form of plot device) that renders the prophesy moot.

One of the reasons I'm able to entertain the idea that Harry will die and take Voldemort with him is that Sybil Trelawney was vague enough in her prophesizing that readers thought she meant Neville for a bit.

....

Sticking to the conventions of storytelling that everyone seems to be so fond of, it's obvious that Voldemort will die, so that's a given. He's afraid of death, he's got to be punished, and Azkaban, being the only real punishment in the wizarding world isn't enough. We want Voldemort's blood, right? Well, I think we're going to get it. However, rather than the prophecy coming true as most of us assume- Harry kills Voldemort and we all live happily ever after- I think there's going to be another plot twist and Harry will lose his life as well.

Given Trelawney's track record and the vagueness of her prophecies I wouldn't be at all surprised if this were the outcome. These books have included so many twists and turns, that expectiing Harry to survive just out of hand, because "OMG, he just HAS to!" seems ridiculous.

Introducing a plot twist at that level of significance at the end of the series that renders the prophecy meaningless, after relying so heavily on the prophecy until that point to move the story along, is spectacularly poor writing. I don't think JKR would stoop to trickery of that sort when she's shown she can write a great mystery without unannounced plot twists. Her revelations have all been heavily foreshadowed to this point and no one has been able to demonstrate that Harry dying is at all foreshadowed.

I don't expect Harry to live happily ever after, although I do expect him to survive. There are more than just two choices - Harry lives happily ever after, or he dies - and I fully expect JKR to make a different choice. Harry has already been emotionally damaged by his upbringing with the Dursleys and he will not be able to destroy Voldermort without suffering more damage. Will he be able to build a life after Voldermort is gone? I think so, but it will take some work on his part and the part of the people who care about Harry.

The Scholastic website quiz is interesting. The voters apparently don't think anyone will die! Even Voldemort! I think the maximum percentage for anyone is Voldie at 23%. So 77% think he'll live! Bizarre! Could Harry come up with a peaceful solution? Shrinking potion so Voldie gets to start over with loving parents? Breaking his wand?

(Unless a non choice registers as "live")

Will Harry live or die.....you know I think that it s apart of every heroe's journey if they are willing to make that ultimate sacrifice. Harry has already lost his parents, his godfather, and finally his mentor. Its like they are trying to strip Harry down to see what he's really made of. Even through all that he's been through he's survived. He hasn't curled up some where and just waiting to die. Harry knows the risks and he is willing to go on a suicide mission to save his world. People have died for him and Harry is going to do whatever it takes to defeat Voldemort. So if he dies I would not be surprised.

Introducing a plot twist at that level of significance at the end of the series that renders the prophecy meaningless, after relying so heavily on the prophecy until that point to move the story along, is spectacularly poor writing. I don't think JKR would stoop to trickery of that sort when she's shown she can write a great mystery without unannounced plot twists. Her revelations have all been heavily foreshadowed to this point and no one has been able to demonstrate that Harry dying is at all foreshadowed.

Here's the thing: I didn't decide Harry would die just on a whim to annoy you or anyone else, I got that idea from reading these books- the same ones you are reading.

I think that JKR has written it so that Voldemort will die, but for Harry it could go either way. Based on Harry's knack for wanting to save people (as Hermione remarks he has a "saving people thing"), and the fact that he cares about his friends and would do anything for them (and they for him), he might be put in a situation where he would lose/give up his life to save others.

I think the books foreshadow this perfectly- Lily sacrificed herself out of love for her son, and it's not bad writing or an "unannounced plot twist" if Harry were to finally take that lesson to heart and put himself between Voldemort and the rest of the wizarding world. Harry broke up with Ginny to "save" her- regardless of whether you think that's noble or selfish (different thread, we're not getting into that here)- it shows that he is willing to give something up if he even for a moment thinks it will help save someone else. And think of the countless times he pulled on his Invisibility Cloak to do something no one asked him to do because he thought it was required of him- to help, protect, save. He's made mistakes, he could die- especially now that he's older and not under the "protection" of the Dursleys, something that has been alluded to often. Now that his blood is running through Voldemort's veins it seems like Harry's more vulnerable than ever. The stakes have gotten higher as the books progressed and JKR has mentioned that the next death would be big because this is evil and evil doesn't take secondary characters (I'll try and find that quote if I can). Basically, JKR has written Harry to be someone who is flawed, but good and capable of selfless acts, but also able to be hurt- emotionally and physically- so a "plot twist" like that would be totally in line with the rest of the books.

(By the way, plot twists are not always "unannounced."
Some "twists" can be predicted and are preempted by numerous hints whereas others are a complete shock - most are somewhere in the middle with some people foreseeing them and others not.
Many good writers and skilled filmmakers have used plot twists to great effect. It is not necessarily a hallmark of bad writing.)

The prophecy is important, true, but again- you have to look at Trelawney's record. Her prophecies are vague and cryptic and don't make sense until well after the fact- JKR wrote her that way on purpose. According to the Bloomsbury website "Swot Up on Potter" (and most scholarly writings on culture in general) the sybils of Ancient Greece and Rome were known for making cryptic predictions about the future, which often could not be understood until they had already come to pass. This might also happen with "the" prophecy- we can intrepret it now, but it won't really make sense until the final battle and that's totally in line with all of the foreshadowing that's gone before.

Makes sense to me: Remember when Trelawney predicted that 'one of our number will not be with us in the spring'? (that was paraphrasing- I can't find the exact quote, but I'll keep looking).

"Oho! Sounds like death to me!" the reader might say.

But no, Hermione ditches Divination and is no longer "with" the rest of the class. As JKR has said, "both Trelawney and I have worded the prophecy very carefully." which means we might not be reading it for all it's worth, but taking it at face value for now because we don't have enough to go on. Really. Reread the prophecy- there are no names, which is why folks assumed the prophecy was about Neville since his folks also thrice defied Voldemort. That prophecy is cryptic and it is built for a twist ending.

Trelawney predicts a death of someone born in midwinter and we later find out that Voldemort was born on New Year's Eve. Despite that, she continues to predict Harry's death- she is unswayed and goofy as she is the fact that she is unwavering in her belief that Harry is in danger sends out warning signals to me as a reader. Since her prophecy will likely not be understood until later, for now it is just a bug in our ear that something life-changing is going to happen- we know there will be a final battle between the two but more than that we can't tell. Maybe Harry will lose his powers and "die" as a wizard when Voldemort "dies" (taking Harry's powers?). Maybe he will lose Ginny and his love will "die" or his heart will break and he will be "dead" inside.

As for my assumptions being based on the premise that JKR is a poor writer, I would have to disagree with you heartily! The fact that I am not certain Harry will live proves that she's doing an excellent job- she has me guessing, reading more deeply, etc. If I was certain without a doubt that Harry would live I wouldn't bother to keep reading, frankly, because there'd be no reason to. Part of the reason these books appeal is that the characters are human and you can't predict what will happen- Sirius was dashing, feckless, rash, and loving, but he died. Quite suddenly, in fact. While I didn't expect things to be easy for Harry, necessarily, killing Sirius was the kind of rug-yanking I didn't think JKR was capable of.

Edit: I keep coming up with new points, but I'll stop now and let someone else have a go. Promise. No, really. ;)

In July I may very well find out I'm wrong, and that's fine. If I am wrong, I'm banking on her not disappointing me with an easy ending that wastes all the the clues she's left.

Voldemort dies and Harry lives. I think if the series is indeed finished this is the conclusion we need to end things and not keep it open for books. With Voldemort alive we want more. We want to find out. Its not over. Harry needs to triumph and finish his task.

Here's the thing: I didn't decide Harry would die just on a whim to annoy you or anyone else, I got that idea from reading these books- the same ones you are reading.

I think that JKR has written it so that Voldemort will die, but for Harry it could go either way. Based on Harry's knack for wanting to save people (as Hermione remarks he has a "saving people thing"), and the fact that he cares about his friends and would do anything for them (and they for him), he might be put in a situation where he would lose/give up his life to save others.

I think the books foreshadow this perfectly- Lily sacrificed herself out of love for her son, and it's not bad writing or an "unannounced plot twist" if Harry were to finally take that lesson to heart and put himself between Voldemort and the rest of the wizarding world. Harry broke up with Ginny to "save" her- regardless of whether you think that's noble or selfish (different thread, we're not getting into that here)- it shows that he is willing to give something up if he even for a moment thinks it will help save someone else. And think of the countless times he pulled on his Invisibility Cloak to do something no one asked him to do because he thought it was required of him- to help, protect, save. He's made mistakes, he could die- especially now that he's older and not under the "protection" of the Dursleys, something that has been alluded to often. Now that his blood is running through Voldemort's veins it seems like Harry's more vulnerable than ever. The stakes have gotten higher as the books progressed and JKR has mentioned that the next death would be big because this is evil and evil doesn't take secondary characters (I'll try and find that quote if I can). Basically, JKR has written Harry to be someone who is flawed, but good and capable of selfless acts, but also able to be hurt- emotionally and physically- so a "plot twist" like that would be totally in line with the rest of the books.

(By the way, plot twists are not always "unannounced."

I don't think that presents the whole story at this point. Harry has a noble streak, but JKR has gradually turned Harry's mind-set so that he's no longer looking over his shoulder at what he's lost. He has someone in his life that makes him happy - happier than he's ever been. I don't think JKR caused Harry to end his relationship with Ginny as a foreshadowing of his death; instead I think she's doing that because his journey is not finished. He still considers emotional connections to be a weakness despite Dumbledore's advice. I think JKR is going to show Harry's continuing maturity by causing him to realize that his feelings for Ginny are a source of strength and are not a weakness. That development in Harry's character will reduce his need to be noble and self-sacrificing and removes it as a foreshadowing of his death, in my opinion.


Many good writers and skilled filmmakers have used plot twists to great effect. It is not necessarily a hallmark of bad writing.)

Plot twists that negate the prior build-up are poor writing. The prophecy has been a major component of the story since book five. Harry dying would mean that the prophecy is not important. That's a direct contradiction of what we've been told so far.

The prophecy is important, true, but again- you have to look at Trelawney's record. Her prophecies are vague and cryptic and don't make sense until well after the fact- JKR wrote her that way on purpose. According to the Bloomsbury website "Swot Up on Potter" (and most scholarly writings on culture in general) the sybils of Ancient Greece and Rome were known for making cryptic predictions about the future, which often could not be understood until they had already come to pass. This might also happen with "the" prophecy- we can intrepret it now, but it won't really make sense until the final battle and that's totally in line with all of the foreshadowing that's gone before.

Makes sense to me: Remember when Trelawney predicted that 'one of our number will not be with us in the spring'? (that was paraphrasing- I can't find the exact quote, but I'll keep looking).

"Oho! Sounds like death to me!" the reader might say.

But no, Hermione ditches Divination and is no longer "with" the rest of the class. As JKR has said, "both Trelawney and I have worded the prophecy very carefully." which means we might not be reading it for all it's worth, but taking it at face value for now because we don't have enough to go on. Really. Reread the prophecy- there are no names, which is why folks assumed the prophecy was about Neville since his folks also thrice defied Voldemort. That prophecy is cryptic and it is built for a twist ending.

Trelawney predicts a death of someone born in midwinter and we later find out that Voldemort was born on New Year's Eve. Despite that, she continues to predict Harry's death- she is unswayed and goofy as she is the fact that she is unwavering in her belief that Harry is in danger sends out warning signals to me as a reader. Since her prophecy will likely not be understood until later, for now it is just a bug in our ear that something life-changing is going to happen- we know there will be a final battle between the two but more than that we can't tell. Maybe Harry will lose his powers and "die" as a wizard when Voldemort "dies" (taking Harry's powers?). Maybe he will lose Ginny and his love will "die" or his heart will break and he will be "dead" inside.

But Trelawney also predicted that Harry would live and have 12 children. Doesn't that contradict her earlier prophecies? Trelawney no longer predicts Harry's death, so her earlier statements must be weighed against her more recent predictions.

I think Harry will die because then Jo will not be pressured into writing more books.

NO, plain and simple SHE WILL NOT KILL HIM OFF she wants the book to do well and it stil would by REAL fans but the phonies followers who are in it for thew hype will not want to read it then ...its true

No i will not have it,I mean she wouldnt .....she couldnt do it *sniff*:upset:
*seriously*Ah i'm kidding,but no i dont think JR would actually kill Harry.

she won't unless his scar is a horcrux or somthing otherwise NO

I wa just rereading the first book, and something caugh my eye. When Firenze helped Harry, Bane was upset, asking if he was trying to change fate. Then later, Firenze was saying that he hoped what the sky said about Harry's future wasn't true. So you think this eans Harry will die in the last book?

I think that if Harry dies in 7 his scar being a horucrux is not the reason. Remember Voldemort did not think Harry was going to survive there first encounter. So why would he have made Harry's scar a horucrux if he thought that he would be destroying Harry, and therefore the horucrux right after he made it. (after the murder of Lilly or James).


But Trelawney also predicted that Harry would live and have 12 children. Doesn't that contradict her earlier prophecies? Trelawney no longer predicts Harry's death, so her earlier statements must be weighed against her more recent predictions.


She only predicts this after Harry defies Umbridge. Most likly this is not a valid predciton but rather a way of showing her approval of Harry's quibbler interview

She only predicts this after Harry defies Umbridge. Most likly this is not a valid predciton but rather a way of showing her approval of Harry's quibbler interview


I agree. I was responding to an earlier post that stated that Trelawney's predictions about Harry's death were foreshadowing his actual death. I don't think either were valid predictions, and since they contradict each other only one can come true.

Of course, Harry will die some day, but I don't think he's going to die in his confrontation with Voldermort.

I think that we'll find out in July!

I think that if Harry dies in 7 his scar being a horucrux is not the reason. Remember Voldemort did not think Harry was going to survive there first encounter. So why would he have made Harry's scar a horucrux if he thought that he would be destroying Harry, and therefore the horucrux right after he made it. (after the murder of Lilly or James).




She only predicts this after Harry defies Umbridge. Most likly this is not a valid predciton but rather a way of showing her approval of Harry's quibbler interview





it would have been a cool twist though

Harry dying I is a very possible. Jk has shown that the good people can die in the story. Look at Sirus and Dumbledore. No one saw Dumbledore coming to an end but it happened. So I wouldnt be too surprised if he does. But after all hes done I think he deserves a break dont you?

NO -!! I can not believe JKR would ever considered it. Like you all say it is a children's book, good must win over evil. I would be too shocked to believe that Harry, Ron, Ginny or Hermonie are all not safe through the books. But I had to go over Dumbledore's death 4 times before I believed he really died.

I didn't notice until this week that in the GOF DVD when Harry is unconcious at the world cup that his face blurs and almost there is a ghost figure on top of it.

Now I'm wondering if possibly HARRY cannot die:

PS/SS when he touched Quirrell
POA when he fell from broomstick
POA when he fell unconcious on the train
GOF at world cup campsite
GOF underwater when grindylows get him & they are Sparked off him BEFORE he touched his wand for ascendio!


And in the books there is a force that surges through Harry to protect him from Vernon in OOP and also with Mungdungus in HBP.

Now I'm wondering about the prophecy. If Harry and Voldie somehow SHARE part of each other's soul, can either DIE while the other LIVES ?

* GOF underwater when grindylows get him & they are Sparked off him BEFORE he touched his wand for ascendio!Please leave movie scenes in Muggle Studies. While Harry did fight grindylows in GoF, it was well before reaching the 'captives' and Harry never cast a spell to rise to the surface. :)

Guys - you're turning into the Inquisition Squad!

If he dies, I will be EXTREMELY upset!!
He better not.

i think we need to look at J.K.Rowlings view of her fans. She gets a lot of influence on how she writes the book just by reading our forums, even if Harry's death makes sense in the long run, we still have to remember that Harry Potter appeals to many many people in younger audiences. Many of J.K.R's choices on how to write harry potter has to do with the impact it will have on the audience. Not only will there be a lot of unhappy fans if the main character of the book dies, but the point of reading the story does not exactly have to do with defeating voldemort, thats just Harry's main goal. The point of the books has to do with watching Harry grow and suceed with many many obstacles. I dont think as an audience that the ULTIMATE treat of the book series would be the death of the Dark Lord, and definitley not Harry dying alonside him. these are just some of the reasons i believe harry wont die..

i think we need to look at J.K.Rowlings view of her fans. She gets a lot of influence on how she writes the book just by reading our forums, even if Harry's death makes sense in the long run, we still have to remember that Harry Potter appeals to many many people in younger audiences. Many of J.K.R's choices on how to write harry potter has to do with the impact it will have on the audience. Not only will there be a lot of unhappy fans if the main character of the book dies, but the point of reading the story does not exactly have to do with defeating voldemort, thats just Harry's main goal. The point of the books has to do with watching Harry grow and suceed with many many obstacles. I dont think as an audience that the ULTIMATE treat of the book series would be the death of the Dark Lord, and definitley not Harry dying alonside him. these are just some of the reasons i believe harry wont die..

She doesn't, though. JKR's always said that she's writing primarily for herself, and that she won't "tone it down". I posted a bunch of quotes to that effect somewhere in this thread... they got lost, it looks like. I can find them again if anyone wants them :)

Also, wouldn't Harry looking Voldemort's worst fear in the eye bravely be a huge triumph?

(I had a 'Who's "she"? The cat's mother?' moment whilst I was writing this. It was in my mum's voice, unsurprisingly :lol: Rephrase, stat!)

Boy Howdy.At just about every important moment of his life Harry has been able to look death inthe face and survive.On the face of it this would seem to be kind of remarkable-but he IS the "Boy Who Lived"-why kill him now?NO REASON-Harry will go thru HELL but he will NOT die.Even the cover sugests that Harry has an advantage-Harry has palms up-life,living-versus Voildemort,palms down-defeat,giving in.Just one more thought on my account however I am firm in my beleif that Harry will live>Jo did not give us this truly heroic charecter only to kill him off at the end.Sorry,not buying this.

She doesn't, though. JKR's always said that she's writing primarily for herself, and that she won't "tone it down". I posted a bunch of quotes to that effect somewhere in this thread... they got lost, it looks like. I can find them again if anyone wants them

Also, wouldn't Harry looking Voldemort's worst fear in the eye bravely be a huge triumph?

(I had a 'Who's "she"? The cat's mother?' moment whilst I was writing this. It was in my mum's voice, unsurprisingly Rephrase, stat!)

I understand the JKR writes most of the book for herself, but im looking at it in a logical point of view. The author will naturally state that the book is writen exactly how she planned from the start, and im not calling JKR a liar here, but obviously changes will be made from fan reactions, im sure there are even little parts in the book that are sort of a fan-service bit. One of the biggest reasons why the twists in harry potter are so unidentifiable can easily be because JKR already knows everything we predict, assume and contemplate because of how vast the harry potter universe is in public. Harry's life is what we've followed throughout the entire book, and even if she's writing to herself once again i dont think the story began in her head as 7 books of trying to defeat voldemort and dying in the end even by defeating him. But rather 7 books spanning harry's life at hogwarts with minor and major obstacles, and surely it is at everyones best interest that even if dilema's arise in the 7th book, harry's life being the prominent force that drives all the books forward will not come to a heroic stop.

I understand the JKR writes most of the book for herself, but im looking at it in a logical point of view. The author will naturally state that the book is writen exactly how she planned from the start, and im not calling JKR a liar here, but obviously changes will be made from fan reactions, im sure there are even little parts in the book that are sort of a fan-service bit. One of the biggest reasons why the twists in harry potter are so unidentifiable can easily be because JKR already knows everything we predict, assume and contemplate because of how vast the harry potter universe is in public. Harry's life is what we've followed throughout the entire book, and even if she's writing to herself once again i dont think the story began in her head as 7 books of trying to defeat voldemort and dying in the end even by defeating him. But rather 7 books spanning harry's life at hogwarts with minor and major obstacles, and surely it is at everyones best interest that even if dilema's arise in the 7th book, harry's life being the prominent force that drives all the books forward will not come to a heroic stop.

Hmm, but if that was the case, I think we'd have Alive!Dumbledore in DH (which Jo has vetoed). I really do believe her when she says she writes completely for herself. Oh, and I found those quotes, they were at the beginning of this thread (I am an idiot):

Have you ever thought "Maybe I should tone it down"?

JKR: No. I know that sounds kind of brutal but no, I haven't. The bottom line is, I have to write the story I want to write. I never wrote them with a focus group of 8-year-olds in mind. I have to continue telling the story the way I want to tell it. I don't at all relish the idea of children in tears, and I absolutely don't deny it's frightening. But it's supposed to be frightening! And if you don't show how scary that is, you cannot show how incredibly brave Harry is. He's really brave, and he does, I think, one of his bravest things in this book: He can't save Cedric, but he wants to save Cedric's parents additional pain. He wants to bring back the body and treat it with respect.

and on the subject of age groups:

DR: ... and if you've just joined us, we have a real treat this morning, having J.K. Rowling with us. She is Joanne Rowling, the author of the Harry Potter series. Three books that have ignited young *and* adult readers all around the world. If you'd like to join us 1-800-433-8850. What age group are you actually aiming for, Jo?

JKR: When I'm writing, I don't aim for any - any age group. I write these books entirely for myself. And in fact, before - before my British publisher Bloomsbury told me that they were going to market the books as for 9 year olds and above, I really had no idea. A vague idea, obviously. I mean, I was aware they weren't for 3 year olds, and I knew that probably 19 year olds would be wanting to read other stuff, although I've met quite a few 19 year olds since, so that's - that's a really nice thing. The optimum age, I'd definitely say is 9+ for these books.

I'm starting to think I should put them in my signature, I copy/paste them so often :D Anyway, I guess the one problem I have here is that death seems to be considered a failure in the context of this story, and I really have a hard time thinking like that. However, if I was a broken record at the beginning of this thread, I dread to think of where I am now, so I think I'm just gonna say "we'll see what happens in DH" and leave it for a while :)

Plot twists that negate the prior build-up are poor writing. The prophecy has been a major component of the story since book five. Harry dying would mean that the prophecy is not important. That's a direct contradiction of what we've been told so far.

Not really. The prophecy is vague and doesn't even name names. It serves merely as the catalyst that will bring the antagonist and protagonist together and it has been in place since the first book. When Dumbledore put Harry on the Dursley's doorstep, his actions were been dictated by the prophecy. Voldemort has been influenced by it as well: remember he chose Harry as his adversary because Harry was so like him that Voldemort considered him a threat. We guess it's Harry who is the subject of the prophecy, but we don't even know yet how James and Lily defied him thrice, and we had to be told that Neville wasn't The One, so clearly we don't have all the pieces in the puzzle.

Also, Dumbledore points out that if either or both of them walked away the prophecy would mean nothing. Of course, he knows that neither of them will. It almost seems that with every adventure Dumbledore's been grooming Harry to take on the role of Voldemort's opponent, likely because he knows that Voldemort, having chosen Harry as his adversary, will fight to the death of which he (LV) is so afraid.

The build-up so far is that Harry has overcome numerous obstacles, with the help of those who care about him, to meet Voldemort as an equal on a battlefield. As much as he's gone through, Harry is still an emotionally bruised teenager prone to mistakes and self-doubt but also possessing of a great heart and a keen mind. He's learned to love and care for people and that sacrifice is part of love. Therefore, his death would not, to repeat another poster, be a failure- especially if he died fighting tooth and nail for his friends and took Voldemort with him- either for the character or his creator. In my opinion.

From an aspiring writer's perspective, and with some knowledge from the multitude of writing classes I have attended, I can attest to the probable fact that JKR will write for herself and that any forum discussion is merely speculation and wouldn't be influential. She has created a modern day masterpiece in this series, something not many writers have done this century, and will let it write out as she has sees fit.

To me, killing Harry would turn this adventure into a tradegy, and after 6 books I personally have never felt this story was heading in that direction. It would be an awkward twist to suddenly change the overall tone, which killing off Harry would do. I've often said that she made it clear with the first chapter of the first book about his fate: The Boy Who Lived.

Not really. The prophecy is vague and doesn't even name names. It serves merely as the catalyst that will bring the antagonist and protagonist together and it has been in place since the first book. When Dumbledore put Harry on the Dursley's doorstep, his actions were been dictated by the prophecy. Voldemort has been influenced by it as well: remember he chose Harry as his adversary because Harry was so like him that Voldemort considered him a threat. We guess it's Harry who is the subject of the prophecy, but we don't even know yet how James and Lily defied him thrice, and we had to be told that Neville wasn't The One, so clearly we don't have all the pieces in the puzzle.

I think the books would have had to cast some doubt that Harry and Voldermort are the subjects of the prophecy, or at least provide some alternatives, if JKR was intending to reveal that the prophecy is meant for others. The only alternative was Neville and Dumbledore has already dismissed him as the subject of the prophecy. A new revelation in book 7 that the prophecy doesn't refer to Harry would have to be foreshadowed, I believe.

I don't think the books have been laid out in the way you describe: that Dumbledore made a mistake in determining the subjects of a prophecy about the destruction of the Dark Lord and that this prophecy is instead meant for other people. The prophecy is pretty significant: it says the person with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord is approaching. That means that someone else could defeat this Dark Lord and Harry has the bad luck to get chosen by Voldermort instead of whoever this random person is. Again, that renders the prophecy to be meaningless and I think there's been too much emphasis on the prophecy to have it trivialized as a mistake.

I don't think the books have been laid out in the way you describe: that Dumbledore made a mistake in determining the subjects of a prophecy about the destruction of the Dark Lord and that this prophecy is instead meant for other people. The prophecy is pretty significant: it says the person with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord is approaching. That means that someone else could defeat this Dark Lord and Harry has the bad luck to get chosen by Voldermort instead of whoever this random person is. Again, that renders the prophecy to be meaningless and I think there's been too much emphasis on the prophecy to have it trivialized as a mistake.

We're going off track here, but before I try and steer this back, there's a great Dumbledore quote that says something to the effect of "I make mistakes just like anyone else, but because I'm quite intelligent my mistakes tend to be significantly larger." So nu, could be a big mistake, I'm thinking. Oop, went all Yiddish grandmother there. The point being, Dumbledore has been doing what he can with what little info he has. He has been all through the books.

But back to the subject at hand: the prophecy can't be called a mistake because yet since it's not exact enough and so far it hasn't been fully explained. It says: "Either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives." Nowhere does that say "But one of them has to live" or "One of them will definitely survive" it just says that Person A can't live while Person B is alive and vice versa, so one of them has to kill the other. OR maybe they both have to die because they both can't survive in the world. And it also doesn't say "Harry" or "Voldemort." It just doesn't.

And as a corollary, like Trelawney's last big prophecy (the one about Sirius and Wormtail) this prophecy is broken into pieces, so why assume it's all about one person? Maybe it's not all about Harry. Maybe Harry was chosen, but he still dies because maybe he's not the one with the power to defeat Voldemort. In the end, the prophecy is only a catalyst- it has weight with Voldemort because he is afraid and because he chose Harry to be his opponent and now has to kill his opponent or be killed by hiim. It has weight with Harry because of Voldemort's certainty and his attacks on Harry- he's not going to let up on Harry until one of them is dead. It doesn't say who will survive, though. We assume Voldemort will die (I can go along with that) but nobody can say that Harry will live. Dumbledore, who Harry respects and looks up to, doesn't even have enough info to give such an assurance. Harry is going into battle with the belief that he must and that he needs retribution for his parents' deaths, but not even the prophecy guarantees his safety. I'm a fan of narrative convention, but I have a hard time believing that the last book will follow such a cliched path.

Again, JKR has said that she "and Trelawney" worded the prophecy very carefully- and since the prophecy is appropriately vague and cryptic, that means to me that (although I assume Voldemort will die regardless) that the outcome may not be as cut and dried as Voldemort dying and Harry living.

Responding to recent comments-Harry asks wether or not the prophecy means that he must kill Voldemort-DD says yes in an un-ambiguous fashion.So will Harry die in DH?NO-he will kill Voldemort and live!!He IS The Boy Who Lived:tu:

(i dunno if this has been posted before, but here goes) Harry won't die! I came to this conclusion as I was rereading sorcerer's stone. On page 262 (American version), at the very beginning of the chapter 'Through the Trap Door' , Rowling writes: "In years to come, Harry would never quite remember how he had managed to get through his exams when he half expected Voldemort to come bursting through the door at any moment'"

I think the phrase "In years to come" would be more fitting for a significant amount of time (which would indicate that Harry will live to adulthood), rather than a span of 6 or less years.

(i dunno if this has been posted before, but here goes) Harry won't die! I came to this conclusion as I was rereading sorcerer's stone. On page 262 (American version), at the very beginning of the chapter 'Through the Trap Door' , Rowling writes: "In years to come, Harry would never quite remember how he had managed to get through his exams when he half expected Voldemort to come bursting through the door at any moment'"

I think the phrase "In years to come" would be more fitting for a significant amount of time (which would indicate that Harry will live to adulthood), rather than a span of 6 or less years.

Hmmm... possibly. :hmm:

I think its almost a sort of "i owe you a LIFE" thing when it comes to Harry. He's no longer the boy who lived, he's the boy who deserves to live. Every time he beats voldemort i dont think JKR is telling us "at one point he'll beat him and die" its more of a "voldemort and harry both grow powerful, but the last battle will leave one standing". i think thats the biggest thing in the harry potter books, yeah evil has succeeded many times before but with consequences. harry's parents PAID already for voldemorts downfall. i dont think harry himself will have to give up his own life for voldemort to fall once again . every chapter in the book is written to show harry's strength as a person, his growth as a boy and the love he keeps finding. Killing off Harry is like blatantly stateing that he is a tragic hero with tragic flaws that caused his death. the mystery the HP books create isnt really about "will Voldy or Harry win at the end". its pretty clear that harry's going to win, the question is "How the hell is some 7th year boy going to defeat the dark lord, and whose lives will be sacrificed on the journey"

Every time he beats voldemort i dont think JKR is telling us "at one point he'll beat him and die" its more of a "voldemort and harry both grow powerful, but the last battle will leave one standing". i think thats the biggest thing in the harry potter books, yeah evil has succeeded many times before but with consequences. harry's parents PAID already for voldemorts downfall. i dont think harry himself will have to give up his own life for voldemort to fall once again . every chapter in the book is written to show harry's strength as a person, his growth as a boy and the love he keeps finding. Killing off Harry is like blatantly stateing that he is a tragic hero with tragic flaws that caused his death. the mystery the HP books create isnt really about "will Voldy or Harry win at the end". its pretty clear that harry's going to win, the question is "How the hell is some 7th year boy going to defeat the dark lord, and whose lives will be sacrificed on the journey"


Oh, I agree. And everytime Harry succeeded over Voldemort, it's like someone close to him paid the price, really.
Sirius, and Dumbledore, and his parents...
On a slightly different note, it's like these people have fallen for him and now he's just left standing, to fight Voldemort. I think he might have to sacrifice himself, to finally defeat Voldemort once and for all. I would absolutely hate it if Voldemort died and Harry lived and everything was dandy.

Harry should live. I think it'd be a slap in the face to all of us if he didn't. Of course it would be for the greater good, or something of that sort, with a deeper message implied... But wouldn't the better message be that good always triumphs over evil? That is the main theme of the book; Good vs. Evil. The other big theme is the power of love and family... And with the power of his mother's love, Harry will survive. If he doesn't, it just shows that his family sacrificed themselves for nothing, and the love that his mother gave him wasn't enough. He's the 'Boy Who Lived'. With death, he'd be the boy who died, which obviously is very morbid, indeed!

And finally, Jo's written so much about him over these years. I highly doubt she'd be able to kill somebody that she should love so dearly. She's got to love him about as much as we all do, if not more, and I can't imagine her killing him off. Look at Stranger Than Fiction, if you will. The author couldn't manage to kill the man off, for all the deeper meaning in the world. Of course that's where the similarities end, but it does compare, if you think about it...

Harry will [hopefully!] live. For all of our sakes =]

I have to write this, because I hope it does not happen, and I have to get it out of my head. I went and saw Beauty and the Beast on Broadway (New York City) this weekend (it's closing, so I took my daughter) and because I hadn't seen the Disney version of the story since it came out about 15 years ago I forgot about the ending. Gaston attacks the Beast and wounds him so badly that he dies - however Belle confesses her love just in time before the last petal of the enchanted rose falls - the Beast comes alive again when he is transformed into the Prince he always was...

So I couldn't get it out of my head, that it IS a possibility that 1. Harry's scar does contain a bit of Voldemort's soul, and if he was killed, it could be that the LV soul bit is what dies leaving Harry alive or 2. Harry comes around and finds love for someone (Snape? Voldemort? Peter?) just before he dies and that activates the Ancient Magic trapped in his scar saving his life and letting him live.

Anyway, thanks for listening. I've written it down and I can move on. :)

However if Jo says there's a bit of Harry in her and she has fought back from advesity and won - happy marriage, more children etc then MAYBE (but not necessarily but hopefully) she has written a similar end to Harry's life and he will find true love and happines as Jo has.

I would absolutely hate it if Voldemort died and Harry lived and everything was dandy.

If Harry lives (which he better), even if he kills Voldemort (which he better :p ) there will always be evil in the world. Thus, everything will not be "dandy", but they will be much better off.

I think (and I think that a lot of other people also think) that Harry will die by killing Voldemort. The whole Neither can live while the other survives thing makes me think that they both have to die, if one of them can't live. I also think that JKR will want to kill off Harry so that nobody else can carry on the stories. Although my boyfriend thinks that if Harry dies then Warner Brothers will change it so he lives so that they can carry on making the films, but that is a bit off topic, sorry

(i dunno if this has been posted before, but here goes) Harry won't die! I came to this conclusion as I was rereading sorcerer's stone. On page 262 (American version), at the very beginning of the chapter 'Through the Trap Door' , Rowling writes: "In years to come, Harry would never quite remember how he had managed to get through his exams when he half expected Voldemort to come bursting through the door at any moment'"

I think the phrase "In years to come" would be more fitting for a significant amount of time (which would indicate that Harry will live to adulthood), rather than a span of 6 or less years.

I agree. Here is another quote from Harry that I like. PG 68 (American edition) Prisoner of Azkaban
"I'm not goint to be murdered," Harry said out loud.

Of course here he meant by Sirius Black, but I would like to think it applies to the ending as well.
I have to hope anyway.

Read about the Harry Potter Theme Park and the news has me convinced that Harry will live.

Think about it --- you are considering building a huge theme park. Would you go ahead without some assurance that the series doesn't end with a MAJOR bummer -- i.e. main character's death?

:grumble: :td: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :huh: :( :( NNNNNNNNNNnnoooooooooooooooooo!!!! Don't let him die, JK!!

I'm starting to think that this could go either way...I can't make up my mind!
I don't want Harry to die, but he might, we'll never know till it comes out!

I think the theme park is a really good sign that the series has a happy ending! What would they do - have a ride called Harry's death? It would be a gravesite, place to go to mourn, vs a "happiest place on earth", so to me theme park = happy ending. Phew!

I don't think that the theme park is necessarily a good or bad sign. If you ask me Universal is just trying to cash in on the Harry Potter hype. Plus if, god forbid, Harry does die I think "Harry's Death" would be an awesome ride.

Short answer, No.

I dont think Harry will die. But I am now starting to think that the final battle with Voldy will not only cost Harry his wand, bu that he will loose his magical ability too! :err:

I don't think Harry will die, what would be gained from the series, and i don't beleive that JKR killing him off just to prevent other authors resurrecting him would work, to do that she would need to kill off the whole wizard world, as someone else would always be able to create new stories based on hogwarts, hogsmead, etc, as harry has also lost all his close family (parents, sirius and dumbledore), the only other people of consequence to him are the weasleys, neville or hermione, therefore i think one or more of these will die.

(i dunno if this has been posted before, but here goes) Harry won't die! I came to this conclusion as I was rereading sorcerer's stone. On page 262 (American version), at the very beginning of the chapter 'Through the Trap Door' , Rowling writes: "In years to come, Harry would never quite remember how he had managed to get through his exams when he half expected Voldemort to come bursting through the door at any moment'"

I think the phrase "In years to come" would be more fitting for a significant amount of time (which would indicate that Harry will live to adulthood), rather than a span of 6 or less years.This is a good quote. Of course, Harry was eleven and he will be seventeen in the last book. Is six years enough? But I agree, this looks like he will live.

Harry should live. ... But wouldn't the better message be that good always triumphs over evil? That is the main theme of the book; Good vs. Evil. The other big theme is the power of love and family... And with the power of his mother's love, Harry will survive. If he doesn't, it just shows that his family sacrificed themselves for nothing, and the love that his mother gave him wasn't enough. He's the 'Boy Who Lived'. With death, he'd be the boy who died, which obviously is very morbid, indeed! I agree that it would seem meaningless for Lily to have sacrificed her life only to have Harry lose his, too. And it is a book of good versus evil. I don't want evil to win.

And the first chapter of the first book is the boy who lived. It needs to stay that way. :lol:

Harry will die...because Prof. Trelawney says so. Think I'm nuts, read on...

I believe that there is much more to Divination and Prof. Trelawney than the trio thinks. If you follow the belief, as I do, that Hermione is always right and Ron is always wrong in their predictions unless Ron is joking or Hermione is letting her emotions get the best of her, then you will see that their opinion of Trelawney and Divination is grossly inaccurate. Remember that after being insulted in POA, Hermione (letting her emotions control her) drops Trelawney's class because there is no scientific proof that Divination is real magic. We think Trelawny is a joke because she is always predicting death and horrible things, but is it just a coincidence that death and bad things tend to happen in the HP series??? If you believe that there is no such thing as a coincidence in JKR's writing, then there has to be another explanation - Trelawney's predictions are accurate.

In POA, she accurately continues to see the Grim when looking at Harry's future. The grim was a big black dog that was in fact stalking and did have a confrontation with Harry (Sirius). She accurately predicts that Umbridge is "in grave danger" and she senses, "something that concerns you (Umbridge)...something dark...some grave peril".(OOTP, p. 315) We know that Umbridge did indeed find herself in "grave danger" in "something dark" when she was in the forrest getting attacked by centaurs. Now, of course, we dismiss this at the time because Trelawny is a nut. On the same page (OOTP, p. 315) she again predicts Harry's "gruesome and early death". This seems unimportant, because she always predicts Harry's death and because JKR puts it in parenthesis to show that it's not even a lasting thought with Harry. Notice she never says, you will die tomorrow. She says "early death". If Harry does die in the 7th book, I wonder how many people will finally start to believe in Trelawney. My bet is people will still think she is a nut.

What seems odd to me is that her two episodes of true seeing (the prophecy and the dark lord returning to power) seem to be the predictions that would not have come true if she had not foretold them.

Here's a link to another page that kind of confirms that there is more to Divination class than meets the eye:
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=99799&highlight=ron+divination

I'm a big fan of Trelawneys predictions - indeed almost all of them have been true, just with more or less different interpretation. But I think the Harry-issue is still unsolved. On the one hand she predicts his early death, on the other he will become Minister of Magic with a big family. As I believe Harry will live, I tend to think the latter is right, but admit that I don't know how to interpretate one or the other. I doubt one of them will come true just as it was said (what would be impossible anyway, though).

In all truths, I think Harry's death is so foreshadowed that it is a blind man's jump - suspense, the clues to something vastly different to the end means.

His power has proven he can survive, the power the Dark Lord knows not (Love & Caring) - Year One: The Troll - "Many first years would not escape unharmed taking on a full grown mountain troll" - Minerva, Quarrell - His touch by his mothers love; which his own love and caring, though he should have died led to a different conclusion then should happen. Year Two: the chamber of secrets, the spiders, the basalisk, saving Ginny, again same thing...and so on, Talweny may have some ability, I do not believe she is a poor seer, I just think it is all for not.

My theory is that Harry will go into the veil with Voldemort, but he will return - he will pass into death's realm, he will though once again survive, due to his power of love, and those whom love him. She will be right and wrong, as she has proven to be on more then one occasion.

Harry will die...because Prof. Trelawney says so. Think I'm nuts, read on...

I believe that there is much more to Divination and Prof. Trelawney than the trio thinks. If you follow the belief, as I do, that Hermione is always right and Ron is always wrong in their predictions unless Ron is joking or Hermione is letting her emotions get the best of her, then you will see that their opinion of Trelawney and Divination is grossly inaccurate. Remember that after being insulted in POA, Hermione (letting her emotions control her) drops Trelawney's class because there is no scientific proof that Divination is real magic. We think Trelawny is a joke because she is always predicting death and horrible things, but is it just a coincidence that death and bad things tend to happen in the HP series??? If you believe that there is no such thing as a coincidence in JKR's writing, then there has to be another explanation - Trelawney's predictions are accurate.

In POA, she accurately continues to see the Grim when looking at Harry's future. The grim was a big black dog that was in fact stalking and did have a confrontation with Harry (Sirius). She accurately predicts that Umbridge is "in grave danger" and she senses, "something that concerns you (Umbridge)...something dark...some grave peril".(OOTP, p. 315) We know that Umbridge did indeed find herself in "grave danger" in "something dark" when she was in the forrest getting attacked by centaurs. Now, of course, we dismiss this at the time because Trelawny is a nut. On the same page (OOTP, p. 315) she again predicts Harry's "gruesome and early death". This seems unimportant, because she always predicts Harry's death and because JKR puts it in parenthesis to show that it's not even a lasting thought with Harry. Notice she never says, you will die tomorrow. She says "early death". If Harry does die in the 7th book, I wonder how many people will finally start to believe in Trelawney. My bet is people will still think she is a nut.

What seems odd to me is that her two episodes of true seeing (the prophecy and the dark lord returning to power) seem to be the predictions that would not have come true if she had not foretold them.

Here's a link to another page that kind of confirms that there is more to Divination class than meets the eye:
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=99799&highlight=ron+divination

but she also says in ootp that she changes her mind about him dying

i think he will... but i also think LV will 2!!! yea yea i know it defeats the purpose but still it would through a weird twist... dont ya think...


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but she also says in ootp that she changes her mind about him dying

She tells him he'll live a long life and have many children because she knows he helped run off Umbridge. I think this was discussed earlier in the thread. If I can find the quote I will post it.

I'm going to be optimistic and say that Harry won't die in Deathly Hallows. Though he faces a dangrous path, I believe he will survive and continue to be the Boy Who Lived, and I choose to believe he will triumph over Voldemort. But just because he lives doesn't mean he'll necessarily have a happy ending.

I think Harry will live but be horribly emotionally scarred. *sniff*

Bloody hell (as Ron would say) many of the youngsters and I mean those under 16 seem to revel in the thought that Harry will die and Voldemort will prevail - I can't think why but do you think they are rebelling against us oldies (those over 16)?

I hope that at least a Frodo (with a romance) type ending will come about - to satisfy many of us but that Ginny's love will be the equivalent of the 'journey to the Havens' type ending of the LOTR and Harry can be healed before he has to make any other journeys to heal his mental and physical wounds.

Bloody hell (as Ron would say) many of the youngsters and I mean those under 16 seem to revel in the thought that Harry will die and Voldemort will prevail - I can't think why but do you think they are rebelling against us oldies (those over 16)?


Not at all. I don't in any way think Voldemort will win - I've not really even put much thought to it, since I'm practically certain that Harry will defeat him. To me, Voldemort winning is just... not an option, I guess.

Though I'm sure some people would say that Harry dying would be a victory of sorts for Voldemort, which I'm going to have to preemptively agree to disagree with ^_^ I do however wonder why I can't stay out of threads I ban myself from... *runs away*

i think he will... but i also think LV will 2!!! yea yea i know it defeats the purpose but still it would through a weird twist... dont ya think...

Hardly...a lot of people also think so- it would make the most sense in my opinion because the way I see it, Voldemort has to die because good must prevail, but Harry also has to die because it would be quite cheesy to have Harry wander off into the sunset with Ginny...

Also, I'm sorry but we don't allow "text typing" here, as there are a lot of people here whose first language isn't English :)

Everyone seems to think that Harry might die in Book Seven. Where have we all gotten this idea from? Is it normal for fans to read a book and to worry if the Hero will live or not? I personaly think that he will live, but that upon destroying the Scar Horcrux (cray idea huh?) He will be free at last from his scar and He who must not be named.

We have this idea because it is totally possible. It is just as possible for Harry to die as Voldemort.

And no, it's not normal for fans to worry whether the hero will die or not, but this isn't a normal series of books. Remember, Sherlock Holmes died even though he was the hero...JK Rowling even mentioned this in an interview with Richard and Judy on UK television last year (I think) and in this interview she mentioned that Harry COULD die, but she wasn't saying whether he would or not, obviously

Soledad O'Brien: I'm going to pose the final question to you and I'd like all three of you to take a stab at it. You can do it in any order that you would like. If you were to have dinner with any five characters from any of your books -- take a moment to think about it -- who would you invite, and why would they be on your list? Any order.
JK Rowling: Well I'd take Harry, to apologize to him (crowd laughs). Um, I'd have to take Harry, Ron and Hermione.
Stephen King: Sure.
JK Rowling: I would - this is - (crown shouts suggestions).
Stephen King: Hagrid, take Hagrid.
JK Rowling: See, I know who's actually dead.
Stephen King: Pretend you can take them anyways.
JK Rowling: Pretend I can take anyone? Well then I would definitely take Dumbledore. I'd take Dumbledore, Harry, Ron, Hermione...and.. (crowd shouts characters) um, Hagrid. I'd take Hagrid, yeah. And Owen because he wouldn't take up much space (crowd laughs). "

Well, in that she says I know who's dead and he said pretend you can take them anyways. So, dumbledore is her answer. So maybe he's not going to die. Well, then again she can't spoil...I mean she's pleaded for peeps not to spoil.

But also, she might want him to die so when she does die :( no one can really take on the series because he's dead unless they like, used another character and blahdey blah blah....but she might not want to cos she'll get fanmail, bad, mean, unhappy fanmail. So, whatever one she chooses will be her destiny. *angels sing*. Sorry... :rotfl:

recently since HP7's been coming up lately ive been asking around to see if people think like the topic if he'll survive, and im surprised that more people said that he'd die in book 7. i know its noble and what not, but isnt the point of the series to sort of see harry suceed, defeat lord voldemort and finally live the life he pretty much deserves?. just asking how many people are with me, i totaly think harry will live through the war.

My theory is that Harry will go into the veil with Voldemort, but he will return

I totally agree. I think that at last that will make the difference: Harry, who is not fearing death will meet his parents, Sirius, Dumbledore, Cedric and will decide not to stay with all them he loves. Voldemort, who fears death, will face eternity and have the desire to die. But he won´t be able to. I would like this sort of ending because I agree with Dumbledore that there are many things worse than death.

Yes I suppose Harry could have one of those near-death experiences and pass into the after-life only to be told 'this is not yet your time - go back' etc and then go back. This could be acheived by both Harry and Voldemort going through the veil and only Harry being turned back as it was not yet his time?????

Yes I suppose Harry could have one of those near-death experiences and pass into the after-life only to be told 'this is not yet your time - go back' etc and then go back. This could be acheived by both Harry and Voldemort going through the veil and only Harry being turned back as it was not yet his time?????

Okay, but without anyone actually saying the "It's not your time yet" bit.

i really, really, really hope not. I would be hugely devasted and dissapointed if he did.

I never mentioned anyone would SAY it's not his time but that it could happen somehow - like a rejection of admittance to a place indicating that his entry was refused for some reason (like not yet being his time). Just like the Chess pieces barred their way( in the Philosophers Stone book) without actually telling the trio they couldn't pass.

Hallows (Deathly or otherwise) don't necessarily speak. Actions speak louder than words.

Okay, but without anyone actually saying the "It's not your time yet" bit.

I do not think it would really upsurp the messages given so far - in GOF, Harry's Parents came to his aid, in a way. Everyone seems to be rallying to stop his death and push his success, in some form. However, the point is that I could see DD, Sirius and his parents saying it is not your time, or go back...you do not belong here.

I think the whole transgressiveness of the series is that love and good conquers all, Harry dying in order to succeed would be only half of that, and would be pointless - but going to face death and returning because of love crosses both of those bridges...I mean what idiot parent wants their kid to die for a noble cause? Ask the parents whom have lost their kids to the war, if they think it is noble? You may not like the answer, but truth is there is no honor in death - no matter the cause, but to love another, there is honor - that may be why the word shows up more times then not in wedding vows!

I doubt it.

I know J.K.R. has not hesitated in killing off beloved characters, but I just cant see her killing Harry.

If at all Harry does die, he should go down in style. meaning there should be a huge battle scene where everyones involved and voldemort just happens to get the better of him. i'd like to think not, but if not harry then who?? (theoretically speaking)

recently since HP7's been coming up lately ive been asking around to see if people think like the topic if he'll survive, and im surprised that more people said that he'd die in book 7. i know its noble and what not, but isnt the point of the series to sort of see harry suceed, defeat lord voldemort and finally live the life he pretty much deserves?. just asking how many people are with me, i totaly think harry will live through the war.

I do think Harry will survive - I totally agree - Harry is the guy you want to win because he has always got the crappy end of the stick.

I think that Harry survives and he wont be unscathed - he will suffer loss and disappointment again but he will be victorious against Voldemort.

Philosophically speaking, one of the lessons we see over and over again in great epics is the triumph of good over evil although it may appear that evil is temporarily winning - like the phase: evil is winning the battles but losing the war. My other point is it is too easy for Harry to sacrifice himself as the Hero - wouldnt it be a bit more realistic that at the end Harry has to pick himself up, dust himself off and continue on living - persevering?

I've ranted enough...I with you!!!

hm, I always thought it a good possibility that harry might die.
What really bugs me is the thought, that JKR doesnt do it because the books have become such a huge success and she kinda has to make ammendmends.
I would really hate that, because I want to read the story the way she planned it from the start. Is there a thread about this?

hm, I always thought it a good possibility that harry might die.
What really bugs me is the thought, that JKR doesnt do it because the books have become such a huge success and she kinda has to make ammendmends.
I would really hate that, because I want to read the story the way she planned it from the start. Is there a thread about this?

Every quote I've read from Jo has convinced me that she wouldn't do that (and I kind of wish Richard and Judy had never even mentioned the Sherlock Holmes thing, seeing as it gets misinterpreted so frequently.) Accio-Quote (http://www.accio-quote.org) is an archive of nearly all of her interviews; I don't have time to collect quotes now, but if you browse around you should come across some of the interviews I did.

Edit: Here's the full text of the Sherlock Holmes thing, for those who wonder what the hell I'm going on about:

Richard: I was dodging around the death bit, because I know you can't answer that question, But you know how Conan-Doyle got sick up to there of Sherlock Holmes ...

Jo: I've never been tempted to kill him off before the end of book 7. I have always planned seven books and that is where I want to go, where I want to finish on seven books. But I can completely understand the mentality of an author who thinks "Well I am going to kill them off because that means there can be no non-author written sequels as they call them, so it will end with me and after I am dead and gone" - they would be able to bring back the character and write a load of ...

She understands it, but that doesn't mean she's going to do it :) And sorry, I think I ended up replying to two unrelated issues there... oh well.

I'm ambivalent about the issue to be honest.

I don't want Harry to die, heck I'd be upset if anyone but Voldemort, Bellatrix and Wormtail died. However I think if he does I will be somewhat prepared.

JKR was a classics student and in mythology the hero always dies and that sticks in my mind.

If he lives there can't be a sugary sweet ending however, somehow that wouldn't seem right.

Beyond my concern for Harry however is my hope that the Harry Potter books will go out in a blaze of glory. I very much hope that this last book secures its place as a literary great, when all the hype has ended. This I very much hope, even above my desire for a favourable outcome for individual characters

Well let's hope what we have just read above is correct as this wil mean that Harry lives and fulfills some sort of life,,,,,,

Harry will not die but he will not live happily. Dumbledore is dead, Sirius is dead and killing Voldermort can't bring back his parents. Ultimately it is all futile, all his suffering cannot destroy the ideals of blood purity which people will always cling on to. Will Harry's victory get rid of elitism or Ministry corruption? Nope. It's all in vain, he can win for a day but new injustices will always be waiting for him in the morning.

Actually that is an entirely sentnment regarding Harry's future life. but the question is - does Jo have this same line of thinking????

I think in the end, he will have to sacrifice himself to destroy Lord Voldemort once and for all.

if my memory is correct most of the things that happen in the books involve harry physically being in the scene or imagining it. even at the begining of goblet, the voldemort and pettigrew scene at the riddle house harry was there in essence because he was 'dreaming' about it. The only only part that i seem to recall harry wasnt a part of was the begining of HBP with the muggle minister, fudge and the new minister of magic.

Let me get to the whole harry dying or not debate. what im saying is, i know JKR wont have the last chapter of book 7 be the big climax. harry and voldemorts battle will be oone of the last chapters yes but definitley not the last one. im a strong beleiver that harry will surivive the war, and i have lots of reasons to support it, this is a new 'technical' sort of reason i thought up. JKR needs to write the last chapter of harry potter, and i dont think she can write a chapter if harry isnt in it or physically alive at the time, unless she's going to try and pull off some sort of 'epilogue' thing explaining how harry's LEGACY lives on or some rubbish like that.
does anyone know what im getting at?

if my memory is correct most of the things that happen in the books involve harry physically being in the scene or imagining it. even at the begining of goblet, the voldemort and pettigrew scene at the riddle house harry was there in essence because he was 'dreaming' about it. The only only part that i seem to recall harry wasnt a part of was the begining of HBP with the muggle minister, fudge and the new minister of magic.

Let me get to the whole harry dying or not debate. what im saying is, i know JKR wont have the last chapter of book 7 be the big climax. harry and voldemorts battle will be oone of the last chapters yes but definitley not the last one. im a strong beleiver that harry will surivive the war, and i have lots of reasons to support it, this is a new 'technical' sort of reason i thought up. JKR needs to write the last chapter of harry potter, and i dont think she can write a chapter if harry isnt in it or physically alive at the time, unless she's going to try and pull off some sort of 'epilogue' thing explaining how harry's LEGACY lives on or some rubbish like that.
does anyone know what im getting at?

I know what you're getting at. I disagree, though :D I think it's perfectly plausible that Harry will continue narrating if he dies - this is fiction, after all, Jo could write anything. I think if he dies, we'll go with him.

Either that or Ron narrates, I guess, like he did at the beginning of PS in the trio's first fight as a team (against the troll).

(P.S., Actually, I get the impression we're not in Harry's PoV properly, but I am a literary idiot and so someone smarter than I will need to explain that.)

Sorry, but am I the only one, or so it seems that feels this a tad bit morbid?

If Harry does die, Rowling will be faced with a terrible dilemma -- the fans, while I see that many on here are stating it is noble, fact is there is nothing noble about death, nobility is upon one's actions in life, and I might say different if Harry was 32 and not barely a man, as he is...it is almost sickening that the following generations are enticed with death. Much like the Romans, Trojans and Spartans: Where the toll did not matter, only the result -- by blade or by spears' splinter though shall die for glory; for it was and is nonsense. We tell our children that they should enjoy childhood, for life is hard enough; where as Harry had not, and now we expect him to sacrifice himself for others...but the those he loves are fastly dying or are dead, so is it justified to send him to his death and never really live? - Why don't we just strap a bomb on Harry and have him go to Voldemort's lair as a suicide bomber and justify the way the Al Queida fights?

I feel that while he wishes to save others makes him noble, his death would be pathetic, not in terms of a storyline, but the rich fame of his story; voted the most famous hero in literature and a billion-dollar franchise that follows his tale, would then be stained; why? Because we tell our children...young or old, to struggle on, life is hard but if you make the sacrifices needed you will have a bountiful life; where that is a miss for Harry: Lose all those you love, or near it, deal with struggle, strife and pain of being a target -- you are born only to serve wizard and mankind and truly deserve nothing yourself! Almost sounds like the Vietnam slogan we American's should have adopted in that time period.

Let alone he is but a boy, and the book will sell, because it already has in pre-sales alone, the movie would likely be nowhere near the others - even HBP the film may take a hit; Christian family's will be enraged, children will cry and much more...I just do not see Rowling doing this and in turn spreading ill-conceptive babble that underminds the society we wish or strive to have, no matter the misgivings of the few.

I just can not see her killing Harry, who is near a child to her and saying to everyone...here is nobility in death, sacrifice and pain is but a road to death, you may suffer and in the end your life is cost and one should have no such thing or happiness in the end, just die and make it count!

:no:

I do not see these reasons preventing her from killing Harry to be honest. She decided many years ago what his fate would be and that has in all likelihood remained unchanged.

A lot of people have commented to me in recent months about why she would kill Harry that it is too harsh, too cruel for a children’s book, but I disagree. Because of these comments i recently had a look at one of my favourite childhood series of books the: 'Anne of Green Gables' series. from a quick glance of these books I counted four significant deaths. I was, as many are when they read these books, very young, nine or ten during my first read. None really upset me that much with the exception of one.

My point is that even young children can handle these things. Death is as much a part of life as love and your choices and in my opinion these are the biggest themes of the books.

All this being said, if the books end brilliantly, and Harry is still alive I will be a happy bunny. I just do not see such considerations as you mentioned entering JKR head. She will and has indeed written what she thinks is the most appropriate ending to the series.

Sorry, but am I the only one, or so it seems that feels this a tad bit morbid?

If Harry does die, Rowling will be faced with a terrible dilemma -- the fans, while I see that many on here are stating it is noble, fact is there is nothing noble about death, nobility is upon one's actions in life...

"My mother can't have been magic, or she wouldn't have died..." said Riddle, more to himself than Dumbledore.

[Dumbledore]"... and began his [Voldemort's] investigations into his previously despised mother's family - the woman who, you will remember, he had thought could not be a witch if she had succumbed to the shameful human weakness of death."

But he understood at last what Dumbledore was trying to tell him. It was, he thought, the difference between being dragged into the arena to face a battle to the death and walking into the arena with your head held high. Some people, perhaps, would say there was little to choose between the two ways, but Dumbledore knew - and so do I, thought Harry, with a rush of fierce pride, and so did my parents - that there was all the difference in the world.

Lily Potter also wishes she didn't get forgotten so much D: Honestly, you die for people, and what do you get? Seriously, though, it's actually interesting to note (to me, at least, because I am a geek) that some of Jo's strongest characters have died. I wonder what that's trying to say?

I feel that while he wishes to save others makes him noble, his death would be pathetic, not in terms of a storyline, but the rich fame of his story; voted the most famous hero in literature and a billion-dollar franchise that follows his tale, would then be stained; why? Because we tell our children...young or old, to struggle on, life is hard but if you make the sacrifices needed you will have a bountiful life; where that is a miss for Harry: Lose all those you love, or near it, deal with struggle, strife and pain of being a target -- you are born only to serve wizard and mankind and truly deserve nothing yourself!

I really disagree. To reduce Harry's story to that is to write off Ron and Hermione, Sirius, his parents, Dumbledore, the Weasleys - in short, everything that he's fighting for. It's also writing off everything we've been with him through (the good and the bad - please don't forget the good, people do that way too often. Harry doesn't like tiny violins, know what I mean?), in favour of a future we're most likely not going to read.

Let alone he is but a boy, and the book will sell, because it already has in pre-sales alone, the movie would likely be nowhere near the others - even HBP the film may take a hit; Christian family's will be enraged, children will cry and much more...I just do not see Rowling doing this and in turn spreading ill-conceptive babble that underminds the society we wish or strive to have, no matter the misgivings of the few.

Well, Harry Potter is a book. It really has very little bearing on society. And I'm going to have to go now, my elbow is bleeding... oh dear :rolleyes:

Edit:

All this being said, if the books end brilliantly, and Harry is still alive I will be a happy bunny. I just do not see such considerations as you mentioned entering JKR head. She will and has indeed written what she thinks is the most appropriate ending to the series.

Complete and utter agreement from me. She'll do what her story calls for.

Well, Harry Potter is a book. It really has very little bearing on society. And I'm going to have to go now, my elbow is bleeding... oh dear

I agree, I think that sometimes we forget this fact. I sometimes even discuss the characters like their real. The books have achieved a fame and worldwide reputation that may never be seen with regards a book again.

It will however, in a hundred years stand beyond this fame as a work of literature, and will be judged as such. I agree that a book of fiction cannot effect society in such a way.

The idea of the epilogue if Harry dies is easy enough to deal with. The epilogue could take the form of letters between characters, an article, it could perhaps be told in a third person omnipotent viewpoint. The epilogues most important job will be to serve as plot exposition for the surviving characters future lifes. Knowing how JKR writes, whether Harry lives or dies this will be imaginative, clever and amusingly done.

I agree, I think that sometimes we forget this fact. I sometimes even discuss the characters like their real. The books have achieved a fame and worldwide reputation that may never be seen with regards a book again.

It will however, in a hundred years stand beyond this fame as a work of literature, and will be judged as such. I agree that a book of fiction cannot effect society in such away.

Mmhmm, I do that all the time - I can't tell you how often I've had to step back and say, "Wait, perspective, stat!" :D And Harry Potter has been very important to a lot of people, me included (I really can't say how much, because it'll sound like a huge dorky cliche, honestly)... but I guess we're a very small percentage of the population, really. The online fandom, as big as it is, is kinda tiny when compared with the real world. That doesn't mean it doesn't matter, it's just that we've got to keep that in mind, I suppose. *nods* Perspective, like I said. Yes. Indeed.

*goes back to writing fanfiction at two in the morning*

I know what you mean. The books have been a source of comfort to me during very dark times and will always mean a tremendous amount (not to be too dramatic or anything).

Every quote I've read from Jo has convinced me that she wouldn't do that (and I kind of wish Richard and Judy had never even mentioned the Sherlock Holmes thing, seeing as it gets misinterpreted so frequently.) Accio-Quote (http://www.accio-quote.org) is an archive of nearly all of her interviews; I don't have time to collect quotes now, but if you browse around you should come across some of the interviews I did.

Edit: Here's the full text of the Sherlock Holmes thing, for those who wonder what the hell I'm going on about:

Richard: I was dodging around the death bit, because I know you can't answer that question, But you know how Conan-Doyle got sick up to there of Sherlock Holmes ...

Jo: I've never been tempted to kill him off before the end of book 7. I have always planned seven books and that is where I want to go, where I want to finish on seven books. But I can completely understand the mentality of an author who thinks "Well I am going to kill them off because that means there can be no non-author written sequels as they call them, so it will end with me and after I am dead and gone" - they would be able to bring back the character and write a load of ...

She understands it, but that doesn't mean she's going to do it :) And sorry, I think I ended up replying to two unrelated issues there... oh well.

It's been a while since I've read the original quote and I see it now in an entirely different light.

Jo was not talking about the fact that Conan Doyle killed Holmes at all. She was contrasting Conan Doyle's decision to kill his character before the series had ended because he had become tired of writing Holmes, and she was saying she had always planned just the seven books and was never tempted to do the same to Harry. She never felt the same as Conan Doyle although she can understand why someone else might be tempted.

A key difference is that Conan Doyle did not have a plan for his Holmes series - it started as a series in a newspaper and was only published as a book later. He just started writing - the stories became popular, and he tired of them. Jo, on the other hand, had always planned seven books and had a definite end to the series when she started (the famous last chapter). Conan Doyle did what he did because he didn't have an alternative.

If we are to carry the Holmes analogy to its conclusion, it's impossible to use Conan Doyle's decision in what would become the middle of the series to extrapolate that Jo will kill Harry. After Conan Doyle resurrected Holmes, he ended the series by having Holmes retire to the country and keep bees (in fact, there are Holmes fans who believe he's still there!).

But if Harry lives what will his victory be? Until the day he lies old and dying he will have no peace. Killing Voldemort does not kill those who loved him and they will target Potter, they will hound him and his friends until he's dead. And so a young man who just wants to live his life will also need to cope with the celebrity his inevitable victory will bring. What kind of life is that? All those who could have steered him down the right path are gone.

No, I don't believe can die.

Pardon? I'm sorry but I didn't understand what you just wrote.

Ok will he do a Sherlock Holmes or Agatha Christie and just disappear until everyone has forgotten about him? No as this idea too predictable and boring. So he will just fade out of our lives temporarily until he can live a reasonably normal life? I hope so.......

Agatha Christie killed Poirot at the end of the final book; she did not want others to continue writing him after her death. I think that copyright holds for ninety years after an authors death (could be wrong) and after that the books and characters are open season, as in there is no longer an estate of the author you can apply to, to use the characters, plots etc. Lots of famous books have non - author written sequels, Pride and Prejudice and Gone with the wind, are just two.

That being said I do not see JKR killing Harry because she fears that other authors will start writing about him after she is no longer with us. If he is to die it will be in service to the plot and themes of her novels and what she thinks is the most appropriate ending to Harry's story. Even if he lives we will in all likelihood never get to read about it. We will finish DH, probably howl uncontrollably over the epilogue (no matter what happens) and that unfortunately will be the end of Harry's story (live or die) and our journey with him. I for one am just incredibly grateful we got a chance to enjoy the world and life’s of the characters at all. Okay now I am going to cry. :no:

Edit: Copyright holds for fifty years after an author’s death. Do not for the life of me know where I not ninety. Agatha Christie, only died over thirty years ago and her estate is managed by her grandson. By all accounts he runs it with an iron fist and the estate itself is worth hundreds of millions. The same is true of C.S Lewis estate which is run by his stepson. In all probability the estate of JK Rowling will many years in the future be run in a similar fashion, which means that in our lifetime we are unlikely to see any sort of sequel, relating to any of the characters or indeed different characters at Hogwarts. I really do not see her killing Harry with regard to debate she had on Richard and Judy relating to Conan Doyle or indeed Poirot.

harry will survive! his chances are slim but i recon he will!
iv got a bet with some people on eoff about this! lol

But if Harry lives what will his victory be? Until the day he lies old and dying he will have no peace. Killing Voldemort does not kill those who loved him and they will target Potter, they will hound him and his friends until he's dead. And so a young man who just wants to live his life will also need to cope with the celebrity his inevitable victory will bring. What kind of life is that? All those who could have steered him down the right path are gone.

Victory and worth is in the eyes of the beholder! - So I gander you think that because of fame, he should die? Yes, he has lost almost all those he loves, but you can learn to love again; this is not Gandolf - Death is but another adventure... Especially in our world where there are vastly different beliefs of the after-life. Like I stated before, if he was 30 or so and had a good life, then I could see death as a way out as a bit of a noble victory, but he is barely a man and his life has been nothing short of tragic.

By saying one is noble to die for a cause they believe in, we give credit more to those whom value little of life: Gangs, Terrorists and so on, and this may be just literature to many; but literature changed the face of the planet, we have always told tales to escape the realism of life, same with television and movies...look at the bible and what it did, do we actually know if it is real? No, but it caused a shift in beliefs. Any form of literature can do the same and shift one's opinion as long as it is accepted by masses, death to be noble - then those whom kill for a cause they believe, whether right or wrong to them would be noble...Shakespear and Plato? They changed works of acting and philosophy, all it takes is the valued popularity to give one or a few the wrong ideas.

Do not believe for a moment that I am one of them forward christians whom think Potter is damnation to our children, all I am saying is that it will effect the masses whom read the books; Rowling has already stated that she does feel some could take the literature more deeply then others, so she knows it will effect others more feverishly. This is not Salvatore we are talking about who has many fans; this is the largest icon in the history of literature...Harry that is, and it is a fact. You kill and icon and in such a manner, then some will take it farther then expected by either believing it justifies their actions or gives them cause.

My biggest thing is that no matter the obscurity it holds; these novels went from children to teens, but knowing the esculation of violence among teens: such as gangs and hoodlum actions; if we say it is alright to suffer, to never truly have a life and to sacrifice yourself for a just cause - you believe in, then we give them that notion; that is why most literature, television and movies have a somewhat aggreable ending, or as happy to one as possible. We americans glorify mass murder and killers by allowing them to have novel deals and movies; other countries are not so, and we have the highest crime and murder rate in the world. No violence is justified, and we have far too many kids killing each other (school & gang shootings) then any other country.

Maybe it is just me, but we need happier stories to subdue the horrors of reality that we ourslelves created. Too many children are abused and treated poorly - much like Harry, and to say death is a true escape, we might as well hand out razorblades to those who try to help scuicidal teens, so they can just help them do what they feel is right. It is sad that many are glorifying Harry's death if that happens, when what they should be doing is hoping he lives, to finally have a good life, to me that is what makes a story worthy. Because there would be more truth in that then death, to struggle on after losing so much, that is life...not I lost it all, so I will kill you and die myself.

2a. The goal of CoS Forums is to make sure everyone has a good time and can make friends. Obviously not everyone will agree with one another and we ask that you respect the opinions of others. Making sarcastic, or rude remarks directed at another member, or attacking others for holding views different to your own will not be tolerated. If you see this taking place, please report it to an Unspeakable.[/

I deleted and edited a couple of posts and I will not hesitate to hand out warnings if you cannot keep it polite.

I don't want this topic ruined so I'll keep it as civil as I can. Those families within the Potterverse who agree with Lord Voldermort will always be a problem and Harry will face hostility once he wins. He will also be hounded by a media every bit as dishonest and unethical as our own. He has to deal with the loss of Dumbledore, Sirius and his parents. Pain that will never truly leave him. That is not a happy life. A happy life would be if he could forget all his misfortunes but that is not possible as, over time, our pain defines us and makes us stronger. Without grief we are not complete. I mean, I don't know what Rowling will do, that's her business, but (And I am being as polite as I can here) she should not be dictated to because a certain group of people have decided to hold her up as a role model. She has no responsibility for the feelings of others.

I don't want this topic ruined so I'll keep it as civil as I can. Those families within the Potterverse who agree with Lord Voldermort will always be a problem and Harry will face hostility once he wins. He will also be hounded by a media every bit as dishonest and unethical as our own. He has to deal with the loss of Dumbledore, Sirius and his parents. Pain that will never truly leave him. That is not a happy life. A happy life would be if he could forget all his misfortunes but that is not possible as, over time, our pain defines us and makes us stronger. Without grief we are not complete. I mean, I don't know what Rowling will do, that's her business, but (And I am being as polite as I can here) she should not be dictated to because a certain group of people have decided to hold her up as a role model. She has no responsibility for the feelings of others.

So you are suggesting....that Harry will die? :huh:

I think he's saying that Jo shouldn't let Harry live only because of potential fan reaction. No fears there; she's had the ending planned (and penned) long since and doesn't write to please fans.

I still stick by my main reason for his survival- the prophecy is very either-or, and to kill both would make the whole 'neither-other' semantic inapplicable.

Good point about the prophecy Hinoema. That's exactly the way I read and interpreted the prophecy. It's got to be either one or the other but not both or neither (or should I say not neither nor but either or).

By the way I love your Weasley Wake Ups.

Maybe it is just me, but we need happier stories to subdue the horrors of reality that we ourslelves created. Too many children are abused and treated poorly - much like Harry, and to say death is a true escape, we might as well hand out razorblades to those who try to help scuicidal teens, so they can just help them do what they feel is right. It is sad that many are glorifying Harry's death if that happens, when what they should be doing is hoping he lives, to finally have a good life, to me that is what makes a story worthy. Because there would be more truth in that then death, to struggle on after losing so much, that is life...not I lost it all, so I will kill you and die myself.

I do not really see any of these concerns influencing the way that JKR completes the novels. My goodness if she did she would go crazy. My friend said a very apt thing to me the other day, while we were watching 'the lives of others'. She said that while we really hope for a nice, sweet ending for the characters in films/books that is not always what is best for the story or indeed this type of ending would in many cases, diminish the story.

Harry Potter stories are books, just that. They are something of a phenomenon and are read by a wide variety of people but they are today, ten years, a hundred years from now just a piece of literature. JKR has no responsibility to society, the hard core fans, and the masses, just to her story. I think it is taking it too far to say it is responsible for the behaviour or enlightenment of society and that this is why it should end happily and sweet. If that is truly the case I for one would be terribly alarmed. A book is a book, a world constructed in the imagination of the author. Society is the responsibility of us all. One women is not responsible for that or indeed should take any responsibility in trying to improve it through a book.

I believe Harry will die,and this is merely a theory that i've come up with since reading all the harry potter books for the past week,I think harry might in fact be one of the horcrux's(not sure if i spelt that right).When Voldemort killed harry's parents,he ended up transferring some of his power into harry(re-watch movie 1 and 2).For example,the fact that both Harry and Voldemort are both parselmouths.So if Harry is indeed a horcrux he would have to destory himself in order to get rid of Voldemort.

However,this doesn't make since to me,because if Harry was indeed one of the horcrux why would Voldemort try to kill him so many times?I guess I gotta try to figure out the rest.

If this theory isn't true then I do still believe that Harry will die,trying to protect his friends.

Then if we interpret the prophecy as neither can live while the other survives as meaning that if Harry dies then Voldemort will live? (Was that the way the prophecy was worded? I can't remember now and the books aren't handy so please forgive any misquotes.)

In my opinion Jk Rowling is going to kill Harry. There are these reasons for my opinion: dying for protecting one of his friends or if he is a horcrux. And killing Harry would do Jk rowling a favour : to complete the HP series. If she leaves him alive we (the fans) would want more books so that we could know what's going to happen to Harry.

Then if we interpret the prophecy as neither can live while the other survives as meaning that if Harry dies then Voldemort will live? (Was that the way the prophecy was worded? I can't remember now and the books aren't handy so please forgive any misquotes.)

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... And the Dark Lord will mark him as equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives."

Though I honestly find it very hard to use the Prophecy as a jumping off point for theorising, since Jo seems to have made it clear (from my readings, at least, but all this Macbeth stuff throws my brain out of loop) that the only thing making Harry do anything now is his own drive to bring Voldemort down. It's like Dumbledore said, "You are setting too much store by the Prophecy!" I just find it hard to draw many conclusions based on it after all that.

I don't want this topic ruined so I'll keep it as civil as I can. Those families within the Potterverse who agree with Lord Voldermort will always be a problem and Harry will face hostility once he wins. He will also be hounded by a media every bit as dishonest and unethical as our own. He has to deal with the loss of Dumbledore, Sirius and his parents. Pain that will never truly leave him. That is not a happy life. A happy life would be if he could forget all his misfortunes but that is not possible as, over time, our pain defines us and makes us stronger. Without grief we are not complete. I mean, I don't know what Rowling will do, that's her business, but (And I am being as polite as I can here) she should not be dictated to because a certain group of people have decided to hold her up as a role model. She has no responsibility for the feelings of others.

I disagree. If he dies, I really don't think that will be why.

It also how you define living. If niether can live it may be that they can't have a life - as in quality of life and not qantity ie. length as in a long life while the other person is around - simply because Voldemort chooses to finish off Harry because he knows and believes in part of the prophecy. Harry can't have a 'life' knowing Voldemort is always going to be after him to finish him off and Voldemort - well he hasn't got much of a life anyway - he so obsessed with the prophecy and his being around forever.

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Edit: Copyright holds for fifty years after an author’s death. Do not for the life of me know where I not ninety. Agatha Christie, only died over thirty years ago and her estate is managed by her grandson. By all accounts he runs it with an iron fist and the estate itself is worth hundreds of millions. The same is true of C.S Lewis estate which is run by his stepson. In all probability the estate of JK Rowling will many years in the future be run in a similar fashion, which means that in our lifetime we are unlikely to see any sort of sequel, relating to any of the characters or indeed different characters at Hogwarts. I really do not see her killing Harry with regard to debate she had on Richard and Judy relating to Conan Doyle or indeed Poirot.

if memory serves me right c s lewis (or it could have been tolkein) sold the rights of his works to his son for £1. this way the copyrights would go to him. he is still living so the copyright remains in the family. slightly off topic sorry.

i can't see harry dying. yeah okay dumbledore says that he is paying to much attention to the prophecy, but as harry is still standing by it in theory it still applies. harry himself says at one point (no book so paraphrasing) i must be murdered or murderer.

as i can't see voldemort winning by any shot of imagination i still think voldemort will die (or suffer the fate worse than death) and harry will live.

if memory serves me right c s lewis (or it could have been tolkein) sold the rights of his works to his son for £1. this way the copyrights would go to him. he is still living so the copyright remains in the family. slightly off topic

CS Lewis did not have any children only two Stepsons. He may have sold one of them the rights. I believe (could be wrong) that unless you sell or make alternative arrangements for your books or whatever, before your death, that it will automatically, as a rule of inheritance law pass to your nearest living relative. JM Barrie made arrangements before his death to leave the Peter Pan copyright to Great Ormonde St. Massive estates like those of CS Lewis and Agatha Christie are probably run by a board of people though.

Victory and worth is in the eyes of the beholder! - So I gander you think that because of fame, he should die? Yes, he has lost almost all those he loves, but you can learn to love again; this is not Gandolf - Death is but another adventure... Especially in our world where there are vastly different beliefs of the after-life. Like I stated before, if he was 30 or so and had a good life, then I could see death as a way out as a bit of a noble victory, but he is barely a man and his life has been nothing short of tragic.

By saying one is noble to die for a cause they believe in, we give credit more to those whom value little of life: Gangs, Terrorists and so on, and this may be just literature to many; but literature changed the face of the planet, we have always told tales to escape the realism of life, same with television and movies...look at the bible and what it did, do we actually know if it is real? No, but it caused a shift in beliefs. Any form of literature can do the same and shift one's opinion as long as it is accepted by masses, death to be noble - then those whom kill for a cause they believe, whether right or wrong to them would be noble...Shakespear and Plato? They changed works of acting and philosophy, all it takes is the valued popularity to give one or a few the wrong ideas.

Do not believe for a moment that I am one of them forward christians whom think Potter is damnation to our children, all I am saying is that it will effect the masses whom read the books; Rowling has already stated that she does feel some could take the literature more deeply then others, so she knows it will effect others more feverishly. This is not Salvatore we are talking about who has many fans; this is the largest icon in the history of literature...Harry that is, and it is a fact. You kill and icon and in such a manner, then some will take it farther then expected by either believing it justifies their actions or gives them cause.

My biggest thing is that no matter the obscurity it holds; these novels went from children to teens, but knowing the esculation of violence among teens: such as gangs and hoodlum actions; if we say it is alright to suffer, to never truly have a life and to sacrifice yourself for a just cause - you believe in, then we give them that notion; that is why most literature, television and movies have a somewhat aggreable ending, or as happy to one as possible. We americans glorify mass murder and killers by allowing them to have novel deals and movies; other countries are not so, and we have the highest crime and murder rate in the world. No violence is justified, and we have far too many kids killing each other (school & gang shootings) then any other country.

Maybe it is just me, but we need happier stories to subdue the horrors of reality that we ourslelves created. Too many children are abused and treated poorly - much like Harry, and to say death is a true escape, we might as well hand out razorblades to those who try to help scuicidal teens, so they can just help them do what they feel is right. It is sad that many are glorifying Harry's death if that happens, when what they should be doing is hoping he lives, to finally have a good life, to me that is what makes a story worthy. Because there would be more truth in that then death, to struggle on after losing so much, that is life...not I lost it all, so I will kill you and die myself.

I agree with you 100%. After all, we just started to see the beginnings of a romance with Ginny in HBP. Why should Harry have to die defeating Voldemort? I feel it is more likely that Snape will show his true colors and die protecting Harry so that Harry may destroy Voldemort.:love:

Wow! Loads of thread pages. My eyes are tired from zooming from one side of the screen to the other =] I'm going to place my opinions beneath some of the common ideas and then add some of my own. I've just finished the mugglenet.com prediction book [which is fabulous!] and it's sparked loads of theories, which are now fireworking in my head.

I'm going to begin with: Yes, I believe that without a doubt, Harry should and shall survive through Book Seven.

I don't think she would dare kill of Harry.. However, it would prevent people from ragging on J.K. Rowling about writing an eighth book.
At this point, I have my idea on what's going to happen, but I highly doubt it's right ;).

Oh; I've heard the "nobody can pressure her to write another if Harry dies..." theory stated, blocked, and stated once more.

As many have used as a deflection already, JKR wrote the last chapter of the series before she even had a publisher. Therefore, she ended the story how she believed it should be finished. The ragging on of fans didn't affect who lived and who died. :no:

As many have also said, JKR is going to write the book how she wishes to write the book. She's strong, and will surely write another captivating story about something or somebody else. I doubt she'll quit being an author just because HP is over, and will request an audience for her new book or books. Pressure by fans is not going to affect whether she feels Harry should or shouldn't die.

Finally, as only few have not stated:
Whether Harry lives or dies, there are going to be countless fans begging her to write another story in the magical world of wizardry. Many will want to see a second generation thing, or perhaps a series about the Marauders' era? There's always going to be evil, or a dark wizard attempting to undermine the good in society, and unless she destroys the wizarding world completely, there will always be something else for her to write about. Thus, Fanboys and fangirls will always be begging her for more.

I think that by writing a nice epilogue based on how Harry spent his life with Ginny, she would prevent future books just as well as killing Harry off. It would actually give fans more closure, and provide further evidence of underlying themes that are constantly present in every story.

Why would somebody want an 800 page novel on Harry's quiet, yet blissfully peaceful homelife? :rockon: They may still beg for the story Harry descendent, a hundred years later, fighting the evil whatever-his-name-would-be, but that would come no matter how the series ends.


Here's my two cents:
"Neither can live while the other survives" seems to imply that one or the other will have to die. We know that Voldemort can "survive" without being "alive" so, my feelings are, that this is where Jo was careful about her wording. It seems to me that if Harry dies, either sacrifices himself for a friend or just dies in battle, then the series has a very good chance of ending with Voldemort basically taking over the whole wizarding world. I don't think, or at least I don't want to believe, that Jo would do this...so, if someone is going to die, it won't be Harry (in my opinion, of course!)

I doubt that Voldemort would take over the wizarding world as the end to the series. Fans would freak out and ask for a new story with a new wizard to defeat him.

Though I'm on the fence about what the prophecy actually entails, I do agree that careful reading is the key to solving the puzzle. After describing the points of the prophecy separately, and in easy to understand statements, there is the following quote:

There are braod and ambiruous statements, but that is no accident. On her website, J.K.R. has told us more than once that the prophecy can be interpreted in a number of ways, and that it requires very careful reading.

The rest refers to the prophecy being set in motion, etc. etc.
The prophecy's connection to Harry's death is only found after careful examination of the prophecy's words, and the order of such. Many people have posted it; Neither can live while the other survives.

At face value, one immediately believes that the wording is simple. They can't both live at the same time. One has to die for the other to remain living. Ultimately, one will destroy the other.

Right?

Perhaps.

My personal opinion is that the prophecy is very straightforward. To include the term "survives", one will most likely survive.

And I think it's safe to say that the one will not be Voldemort. :cool:

ive stated my theeories on this thread many times on my strong belief that harry will survive.
also, the first chapter of the first book was 'The Boy Who Lived'.

Come on, do you REALLLLY think JKR would end it with a 'the boy who lived (for 17 years. but guess what? lily's sacrifice was a waste, he ended up dying. TUFFFFF)'.

yeah he's going to go througha hell of a struggle and see deaths he cant handle, and get so scarred emotionally (and physically maybe) that even after defeating voldemort living would seem worthless. But this is Harry Potter. And in the end, good suffers yeah of course, but good wins. it doesnt matter what the hell kind of twist miss.rowlings going to introduce but its not going to be a 'evil wins' idea. too many sacrifices have been made just for harry to live and defeat LV. if he is to beat LV and DIE in the process its just another chain of 'sacrificing for the better of everyone', and i think thats been dug into too deeply to make another move exactly like that. Harry deserves to live. i really dont think she began writing a book about an 11 year old boy wizard who goes through mind boggling trauma every year in temporarily thwarting voldemort to end with the boy finishing LV for good but also himself.

HARRY LIVES =D (... hopefully)

ive stated my theeories on this thread many times on my strong belief that harry will survive.
also, the first chapter of the first book was 'The Boy Who Lived'.

Come on, do you REALLLLY think JKR would end it with a 'the boy who lived (for 17 years. but guess what? lily's sacrifice was a waste, he ended up dying. TUFFFFF)'.

So then the last chapter would be called "The Boy Who Died." That was 6 books ago and the history of 11 years of Harry's anonymous life- in the meantime The Boy Who Lived has become "The Boy Who Scored", "The Boy Who Broke A Lot of Rules", "The Boy Who Snogged", and "The Boy Who Had a Hissy Fit." That doesn't mean he will or won't die.

I agree that it would really bite if he did die, but in the end JKR planned this ending years ago when she wrote it out- before we all fell in love with our marvelous, bespectacled, fallible Harry and wanted him to live.

you have a good point, but im not really basing my argument on the idea of the audience falling in love with harry preventing JKR to not kill him off, im just implying that in the way she herself began writing the books and the style that the books follow really do hint to me that harry will live, and that thats what was planned from the start, long before the fans kicked in.

Harry either has to murder Voldy or he dies. I think he'll live. For Ron and Hermione, I'm not so sure.

you have a good point, but im not really basing my argument on the idea of the audience falling in love with harry preventing JKR to not kill him off, im just implying that in the way she herself began writing the books and the style that the books follow really do hint to me that harry will live, and that thats what was planned from the start, long before the fans kicked in.

I haven't read your theories, to be fair- I think my reaction stemmed from reading this: Come on, do you REALLLLY think JKR would end it with a 'the boy who lived (for 17 years. but guess what? lily's sacrifice was a waste, he ended up dying. TUFFFFF)'.

I've read the books as well yet I'm operating from a totally different perspective. For example, it seems perfectly logical to me that, because after 6 books Harry still can't seem to figure out that he needs his friends, he's going to lose them- or have to lose himself to save them. Harry may be Dumbledore's man, but he's also rash, overemotional, immature, rejecting any source of help or comfort, and he has no idea where to begin in his hunt- plus, the stakes are so much higher now than in the previous books. If all of that doesn't spell death I don't know what does. The fact that he's managed to survive thus far is wonderful, but the potential for him to botch the whole thing is there- starting with his rejection of Ginny, Ron and Hermione.

What I'm hoping for, the more I consider it, is that over the course of the final book Harry gets a good swift dose of reality that might help him save himself, but from the moment I finished HBP I was certain he would die and in this very moment, as I write and up until the book is in my hands and I'm reading the part where he actually doesn't die, I "REALLLLY" think he will. And if we're playing the JKR-card: she's killed off an innocent kid (Cedric), a doting godfather (Sirius), and a mentor (Dumbledore); she created a schism in a happy family (Percy); demoted an authority figure for paranoia and bad judgment (Fudge); put a drunkard in the Hogwarts staff room (Trelawney), and had a beloved character sent to prison (Hagrid). The "style" is that (as Voldemort says) Harry loses everything- taking that extra step to imply that he dies isn't that much of a stretch.

Just my two Knuts (wish I'd thought of that first, but another poster did :) )

Harry may be Dumbledore's man, but he's also rash, overemotional, immature, rejecting any source of help or comfort, and he has no idea where to begin in his hunt

You forgot pathologically uncurious, common Harry; please ask Lupin a few questions about your parents. We would like to know; their jobs, their work for the order, everything, please please please

As a piece of literature, a Harry that sacrifices himself for the love of friends and their lifes, is very poignant and very powerful. If he does die, the end of the book will still have ameasure of happiness in the lifes, and a sense of being uplifted. If he lives that will not change; other characters we like are going to die anyway.

Evidence suggesting that he will:

Harry has a bit of Voldemort inside him (he recieved some of his powers on the night of his parents' death) and thus the evil energy will never be completely destroyed until Harry AND Voldemort are killed. Also, Harry's blood now runs through the Dark Lord's veins (GoF) and so their fates are too interconnected to not die together.

JK has set up the love connection between Ron and Hermione so Harry can die and there will still be a happy love story ending. (Ginny's going to have to suck it up!)

He will follow in Dumbledore's footsteps. There have been many parallels between his life and Dumbledore's and it would make sense for him to die nobly for a cause.

JK seems very adamant about finishing the Harry Potter series after this book, and she will never stop being pressured into writing a new one unless she kills Harry off. Plus she says that she is sure the story will end after book seven and that there is no chance that it could continue. This doesn't necessarily mean that Harry will die, but it suggests it.
Evidence suggesting he won't:

It's a book that is sort of intended for children (it's not really though, but that's what it says, anyway). JK seems to be a fan of good always prevailing in the end and it would be very different if Harry died.

SO MANY people think he will die that it is almost considered to be a fact and JK has never ended a Harry Potter book predictibly yet. By killing Harry she would be giving the readers exactly what they thought was coming, and I think it would be an even bigger surprise to make him live. His impendding death is so overly hyped and expected that it would blow readers' minds if the series ended in some other way.



There are some facts I have taken into account. I think about them every day and I can't decide whether he will live or die. I think that no matter what people think, it's still a toss-up. We never can be sure when it comes to Harry Potter, but we know whatever JK does, it will be the best thing possible.

I think that Harry will live, but will not come out the same. Maybe he loses his magical ability or something else. I just find the fact that he has one brown eye and one green eye on the US cover for Deathly Hallows very important.

I agree with the eye color thing. JK wouldn't just put that in for no reason. Maybe since Green is the color of Slytherin, his green eye represents the piece of voldemort that is inside him that was transferred to him on the night of his parents' deaths. And maybe this book will be all about the internal battle that rages inside Harry between himself (the side of good) and his connection to Voldemort that he does not like but is forced to possess. Just a thought.

So then the last chapter would be called "The Boy Who Died." That was 6 books ago and the history of 11 years of Harry's anonymous life- in the meantime The Boy Who Lived has become "The Boy Who Scored", "The Boy Who Broke A Lot of Rules", "The Boy Who Snogged", and "The Boy Who Had a Hissy Fit." That doesn't mean he will or won't die.

I agree that it would really bite if he did die, but in the end JKR planned this ending years ago when she wrote it out- before we all fell in love with our marvelous, bespectacled, fallible Harry and wanted him to live.

I think that the important point is that JK fell in love with the marvelous, bespectacled, fallible Harry, and wants him to live. :tu: We fell in love as well, but she'll end the story how she wants to. She wouldn't have given him his friends, as well as Ginny, if she didn't plan for him to live on.

I don't see this story as a tragedy. :no:

I agree with the eye color thing. JK wouldn't just put that in for no reason. Maybe since Green is the color of Slytherin, his green eye represents the piece of voldemort that is inside him that was transferred to him on the night of his parents' deaths. And maybe this book will be all about the internal battle that rages inside Harry between himself (the side of good) and his connection to Voldemort that he does not like but is forced to possess. Just a thought.

I agree and disagree. There is a battle raging within Harry [if he is a horcrux and/or contains a bit of Voldie], but I think it is the choice between what is right and what is easy, whether he should accept help, and battling love versus hate. The green eye[s], however, came from Lily, so I don't see how that would represent evil. If anything, it represents love. :love:

I think that by defeating Voldemort, Harry will live, but as many said, he will be changed. The eye color change may represent that. The loss of the green might also represent Harry accepting the loss of his parents, and moving on with his new family [meaning his friends and Ginny :rockon:].

She wouldn't have given him his friends, as well as Ginny, if she didn't plan for him to live on.

Course she would, it would be unrealistic otherwise. It is this that would give his death more bite. The pain of those who have to struggle on; the future that will never be. Not saying he will die, totally ambivalent about it

Course she would, it would be unrealistic otherwise. It is this that would give his death more bite. The pain of those who have to struggle on; the future that will never be. Not saying he will die, totally ambivalent about it

I definitely agree that it would be unrealistic. I disagree that JKR would intensify the bite of Harry's death [which I believe will not occur until he's a very old wizard...]. If JKR killed Harry, then I doubt that she would do it in the form of a tragedy. Harry, IMO, doesn't seem to show traits of an epic/tragic hero. :no:

I think the way the JKR appears to feel about Harry and Ginny's relationship [of course I'm simply infering] shows that they've got a future. It seems that she's giving him a reason to live on, rather than leave his pained life to join his family behind the veil. She's giving him a future. Taking it away would be cruel, for all the characters as well as the readers.

Those aren't the lessons that have been portrayed throughout the previous books. I doubt she'll spring it on us now.

I believe that Harry will live. I've went both ways on speculating. If he dies I think the fans will really be let down. He is the main character of the books, the title character and I just can't see Harry dying. I know that there have been tons of books out there where the main character of the book dies and it ends up being a fitting end.
With Harry though, I want to know he has a good life. He has something after defeating Voldemort and goes on with his life and makes something great of it.
His parents have died, his God father, his mentor and head of Hogwarts. I mean it would be incredibly sad and heartbreaking for the Hero of the story to die.
I vote that he'll live!

No. Harry will not die.

Either Harry is the one who was spared (and then Ron & Hermione bite it) OR

Ron is the one who was spared and Fred & George bite it.

Either way, Harry lives (and so does Ron).

It's difficult to fully comprehend or guess at what will happen in the last installment because obviously Jo doesn't want it to be incredibly predictable. However, I think she leaves us enough clues throughout the series so that we can at least take a stab at what might happen.

Sorry if this has been posted before, but here's what I think will happen:

Harry has to find the Horcruxes to defeat Voldemort, firstly. Now, it's interesting to note that when Harry went with Dumbledore to the cave in search of a Horcrux in HBP, the whole time I felt it was painfully obvious that Harry was far too inexperienced to have done that on his own...
But in summary, during Harry's search for the Horcruxes, his loyal friends Ron and Hermione will be there to help. Perhaps one or both of them will die in this quest, but my hypothesis is that Ron, who is more Harry's best friend than Hermione, will somehow attempt to spare Harry or save him from something by standing in the way and Ron will die instead. In short, Harry will ultimately, literally as Jo says it must be, face Voldemort completely alone, no friends, no mentors, no nothing.

Eventually, as close as I can get to the ending, I say that Harry faces Voldemort alone, Ron has died, Hermione is quite possibly injured, and Voldemort and Harry end up killing each other. I still can't quite see Harry using Avada Kedavra yet, but perhaps there's some developing we'll see yet in our main character. But I don't see Harry surviving this encounter--he's gone through too much and lost too much, not to mention his death would result in his reunion with family & Dumbledore.

This is just my theory, though, and again sorry if it's been brought up before, I'm still fairly new to forums! :)

Anyone have anything to add or agree on with this?

It's difficult to fully comprehend or guess at what will happen in the last installment because obviously Jo doesn't want it to be incredibly predictable. However, I think she leaves us enough clues throughout the series so that we can at least take a stab at what might happen.

Sorry if this has been posted before, but here's what I think will happen:

Harry has to find the Horcruxes to defeat Voldemort, firstly. Now, it's interesting to note that when Harry went with Dumbledore to the cave in search of a Horcrux in HBP, the whole time I felt it was painfully obvious that Harry was far too inexperienced to have done that on his own...
But in summary, during Harry's search for the Horcruxes, his loyal friends Ron and Hermione will be there to help. Perhaps one or both of them will die in this quest, but my hypothesis is that Ron, who is more Harry's best friend than Hermione, will somehow attempt to spare Harry or save him from something by standing in the way and Ron will die instead. In short, Harry will ultimately, literally as Jo says it must be, face Voldemort completely alone, no friends, no mentors, no nothing.

Eventually, as close as I can get to the ending, I say that Harry faces Voldemort alone, Ron has died, Hermione is quite possibly injured, and Voldemort and Harry end up killing each other. I still can't quite see Harry using Avada Kedavra yet, but perhaps there's some developing we'll see yet in our main character. But I don't see Harry surviving this encounter--he's gone through too much and lost too much, not to mention his death would result in his reunion with family & Dumbledore.

This is just my theory, though, and again sorry if it's been brought up before, I'm still fairly new to forums! :)

Anyone have anything to add or agree on with this?

Welcome to the forums!

I don't think JKR is writing in the way you're proposing. Harry is no longer looking back to the people he's lost - he was happier than he's ever been at the end of HBP. Harry is gradually letting go of his losses and starting to build a life. He's temporarily set that new life aside to remove the obstacle (Voldermort) that remains to prevent him from living that life. I think JKR is writing Harry to move forward to fight for what he can have, not go back to what he's lost. As a result, I don't agree that Harry's lost too much or that JKR is writing his character to be reunited with the family that he's lost; instead she's writing him building a new family with Ron, Hermione and Ginny.

FirstWhat I'm hoping for, the more I consider it, is that over the course of the final book Harry gets a good swift dose of reality that might help him save himself, but from the moment I finished HBP I was certain he would die and in this very moment, as I write and up until the book is in my hands and I'm reading the part where he actually doesn't die, I "REALLLLY" think he will. And if we're playing the JKR-card: she's killed off an innocent kid (Cedric), a doting godfather (Sirius), and a mentor (Dumbledore); she created a schism in a happy family (Percy); demoted an authority figure for paranoia and bad judgment (Fudge); put a drunkard in the Hogwarts staff room (Trelawney), and had a beloved character sent to prison (Hagrid). The "style" is that (as Voldemort says) Harry loses everything- taking that extra step to imply that he dies isn't that much of a stretch.


and



As a piece of literature, a Harry that sacrifices himself for the love of friends and their lifes, is very poignant and very powerful. If he does die, the end of the book will still have a measure of happiness in the lifes, and a sense of being uplifted. If he lives that will not change; other characters we like are going to die anyway.

I disagree very strongly with this. There is nothing uplifting about Harry dying, no matter the reason. My real objection with this is that he shouldn't have to die. He just shouldn't. But beyond that I think we've seen enough sacrifice that one more isn't going to be all that poignant or powerful at least where I'm concerned.

Additionally you can't credit JKR with being unpredictable and then saying that she will do this or that because she has done it before.

Let's make a list of sacrifices:
James for Lily and Harry
Lily for Harry
Sirius for Harry (arguable since he was not saving Harry directly, but it was his purpose in leaving #12)
Dumbledore for Harry

Now potential sacrifices:
Ron for Harry - not dead yet but willing to die (Chess set, shrieking shack)
Neville for Harry - again arguable but I am unwilling to discount his actions in the DoM
Harry for Ginny in the CoS
Frank and Alice potentially for their son as we don't know for certain exactly what the DE's wanted to know

And this doesn't include all the other people who will likely die in DH and I'm sure I've left some things out. As well as not including deaths that weren't to protect someone else directly.

Next and I've posted this before, but I am also expanding on it:

There is nothing I can say that hasn't been said before, but here is my opinion.

I believe Harry will live, and I'll go so far as to prove myself a crazy fangirl by saying that I plan on reading the end at the store before buying it and if he dies I won't be buying it. First, because I think it's a cop out. Second, if I don't read the whole thing then it won't be as hard to pretend it didn't happen when I read fan-fiction. Lastly, I will be able to find out everything that happened on the internet rather than spend money on a book that I won't enjoy finishing. Should Harry be alive then I won't consider myself spoiled in the least, since it's the journey that's important.

That said and to stay on topic, here is why I don't think Harry is going to die, starting with debunking reasons he has to.

1. The 'so there can be no sequels if he dies' reason doesn't hold water. I can't count the number of fics I've seen where Harry dies only to be 'magically' brought back to life. When you are writing a series in a world of magic there are always ways around death. Even if JKR says dead means dead that doesn't mean someone trying to pick up her story would feel the same or respect that. Let's face it, if you steal someone else's work and try to make it your own, you are pretty short on respect to begin with. Also 'epilogue' It is possible to tie up the story neatly enough that the majority of fans will be satisfied not necessarily with the content but with the conclusion of it. Let's face it she could write 100 books and there would still be some people out there clamoring for more, even if there was no story left to tell.

2. JKR has made the afterlife a real and appealing place for Harry, what with having his family plus Dumbledore and Sirius waiting for him there to welcome him, and he doesn't fear death, ect... This one is probably the biggest problem for me. I see a huge difference between not fearing death and wanting to die. JKR couldn't let Harry fear death, lest he be just like Voldermort, so in turn she had to set up the afterlife as a place Harry wouldn't be afraid of. She gave her hero concrete proof that when his time comes his family will be there waiting to welcome him. More importantly though is that they will be waiting for him as long as it takes(they're dead- they don't have anywhere else to be), so there is no reason for him to check out without really getting to live first. His parents wouldn't want that for him, especially right after the threat to his life was removed and he would finally really be allowed to live.

3. JKR wants to show the importance/ beauty of sacrifice and Harry will be a tragic hero, ect... Isn't this what she did with Lily? We don't have to have Harry sacrifice his life to know that it can be an expression of the deepest love. That he is willing to should be enough and I believe that it is enough. And in my mind Harry already is a tragic hero. He has suffered and lost and suffered some more, and yet he hasn't given up. Yes, he's had his moments, but he's still out there determined to fight the good fight no matter the cost to himself. Let's give the kid a break already.

4. Harry is a horocrux (accidental or not) so he has to die to finish off Voldemort. First let me say I don't think he is one, but if I did, I still wouldn't think he had to die. If Harry is one, then he would have to die before Voldemort because canon leads us to believe that the bit in Voldemort has to be destroyed last or else he can come back because of the anchor the remaining bit would provide. So how is Harry supposed to kill Voldemort like the prophesy says he must, if he is already dead? Also I don't believe Harry would have to die to destroy the soul bit in him, is this was the case. The diary was damaged to destroy the soul, but it still existed after and the same was true for the ring. I would go so far to say that if Nagini is a horocrux, there would be a way to remove the soul piece without killing her, only it is easier just to kill a giant poisonous snake and what needs to be done anyway. (I think Nagini is a red herring but that's for another thread.)

5. Happily ever after would be cheesy, too predictable ect... This in itself seems to contradict the brother of this argument which states that Harry's death would be unpredictable and non cheesy for the simple fact that it is supported by the reasoning that Harry is to be a tragic hero. To clarify that a bit more. Doesn't that make him dying just as predictable as him living since it is a standard in the genre? Either ending is going to be predictable to someone so this excuse just doesn't hold water as far as I'm concerned. There is also the reasoning that there can't be a happily ever after for Harry no matter what happens. His parents can't come back. Sirius can't come back. Dumbledore can't come back. Harry can't unsuffer abuse at his relatives hands or unscar his emotions. All he can do is move forward and get on with living just like the rest of us. How is it cheesy to let him have a better life than he's known before. People do it all the time. Personally, I find that realistic. (of course I also married a boy I met when I was 14- whom it happens I dated then broke up with and then got back together with- take that as you will)

Now, why I think he will live.

1. JKR has set up a life for him after Voldemort. It's no secret that I am all for OBHWF. It gives Harry a living family to be a part of and a way to start his own.

2. I don't think killing Harry sends the right message. What is JKR trying to say? You were made an orphan as an infant, mistreated/abused as a child, only to find you are a wizard, but there's a catch, the crazed madman who murdered your parents is trying to come back and kill you and all over something you have no choice about and there is nothing you can do but lay down and die or kill him, so sorry that no matter how hard you fight, how much good you do, or how much you've overcome to be a good person, you don't get to ever really live. Where is the beauty in that, the hope, the good triumphing over evil? Personally, I don't see it, but that's just me.

I, also think that Harry will survive. But we just have to be patient and wait 34 days and 11 hours to find out.

I disagree very strongly with this. There is nothing uplifting about Harry dying, no matter the reason. My real objection with this is that he shouldn't have to die. He just shouldn't. But beyond that I think we've seen enough sacrifice that one more isn't going to be all that poignant or powerful at least where I'm concerned.

No no no I do not mean there will be anything uplifting in his death. I mean that if he does die the epilogue will have uplifting information about those who survived, future life’s. Harry Potter stories are books, and fiction at that. I have read books that have resulted in a lot worse outcomes then the maybe/perhaps death of Harry, including non – fiction. It would be terribly sad but the books haven't always been barrels of laughs. If he lives great.

No no no I do not mean there will be anything uplifting in his death. I mean that if he does die the epilogue will have uplifting information about those who survived, future life’s. Harry Potter stories are books, and fiction at that. I have read books that have resulted in a lot worse outcomes then the maybe/perhaps death of Harry, including non – fiction. It would be terribly sad but the books haven't always been barrels of laughs. If he lives great.

In that case I agree. :tu:

I just misunderstood, which is easier to do when reading rather than hearing.

If Harry were to die the epilogue would have to be uplifting to keep entire series from feeling not worth it. I mean who wants to read seven books where in the end rocks fall and everyone dies. :lol:

I believe Harry will live, and I'll go so far as to prove myself a crazy fangirl by saying that I plan on reading the end at the store before buying it and if he dies I won't be buying it. First, because I think it's a cop out. Second, if I don't read the whole thing then it won't be as hard to pretend it didn't happen when I read fan-fiction. Lastly, I will be able to find out everything that happened on the internet rather than spend money on a book that I won't enjoy finishing. Should Harry be alive then I won't consider myself spoiled in the least, since it's the journey that's important.

Really? See, I could never do that. I got Dumbledore's death spoiled, but like you said - a big part of the actual fun of reading is the journey to get there. We still don't even know the whole reason behind Dumbledore's death, but at least with reading it in HBP it gave it some kind of context so I could start to think about it properly. That's why I could never do what you're going to do - I'd want to know why, how, what happens after, etc.

If Harry were to die the epilogue would have to be uplifting to keep entire series from feeling not worth it. I mean who wants to read seven books where in the end rocks fall and everyone dies. :lol:

Well, here's the thing. I think if Harry dies, we could go with him - so technically, there's a chance it could be a positive experience, you know. With any other character in the series, that would be impossible; that's why I don't think Ron or Hermione will die, the readers would get nothing positive out of that (unless they sacrifice themselves for Harry - still, not hugely full of yays). Harry dying would be different altogether, since he's the main character, and we can follow him.

...There is nothing uplifting about Harry dying, no matter the reason. My real objection with this is that he shouldn't have to die. He just shouldn't. But beyond that I think we've seen enough sacrifice that one more isn't going to be all that poignant or powerful at least where I'm concerned.

Additionally you can't credit JKR with being unpredictable and then saying that she will do this or that because she has done it before.

Let's make a list of sacrifices:
James for Lily and Harry
Lily for Harry
Sirius for Harry (arguable since he was not saving Harry directly, but it was his purpose in leaving #12)
Dumbledore for Harry

Now potential sacrifices:
Ron for Harry - not dead yet but willing to die (Chess set, shrieking shack)
Neville for Harry - again arguable but I am unwilling to discount his actions in the DoM
Harry for Ginny in the CoS
Frank and Alice potentially for their son as we don't know for certain exactly what the DE's wanted to know

And this doesn't include all the other people who will likely die in DH and I'm sure I've left some things out. As well as not including deaths that weren't to protect someone else directly.

Next and I've posted this before, but I am also expanding on it:

There is nothing I can say that hasn't been said before, but here is my opinion.

:tu:

That said and to stay on topic, here is why I don't think Harry is going to die, starting with debunking reasons he has to.

1. The 'so there can be no sequels if he dies' reason doesn't hold water. I can't count the number of fics I've seen where Harry dies only to be 'magically' brought back to life. When you are writing a series in a world of magic there are always ways around death. Even if JKR says dead means dead that doesn't mean someone trying to pick up her story would feel the same or respect that. Let's face it, if you steal someone else's work and try to make it your own, you are pretty short on respect to begin with. Also 'epilogue' It is possible to tie up the story neatly enough that the majority of fans will be satisfied not necessarily with the content but with the conclusion of it. Let's face it she could write 100 books and there would still be some people out there clamoring for more, even if there was no story left to tell.

2. JKR has made the afterlife a real and appealing place for Harry, what with having his family plus Dumbledore and Sirius waiting for him there to welcome him, and he doesn't fear death, ect... This one is probably the biggest problem for me. I see a huge difference between not fearing death and wanting to die. JKR couldn't let Harry fear death, lest he be just like Voldermort, so in turn she had to set up the afterlife as a place Harry wouldn't be afraid of. She gave her hero concrete proof that when his time comes his family will be there waiting to welcome him. More importantly though is that they will be waiting for him as long as it takes(they're dead- they don't have anywhere else to be), so there is no reason for him to check out without really getting to live first. His parents wouldn't want that for him, especially right after the threat to his life was removed and he would finally really be allowed to live.

3. JKR wants to show the importance/ beauty of sacrifice and Harry will be a tragic hero, ect... Isn't this what she did with Lily? We don't have to have Harry sacrifice his life to know that it can be an expression of the deepest love. That he is willing to should be enough and I believe that it is enough. And in my mind Harry already is a tragic hero. He has suffered and lost and suffered some more, and yet he hasn't given up. Yes, he's had his moments, but he's still out there determined to fight the good fight no matter the cost to himself. Let's give the kid a break already.

4. Harry is a horocrux (accidental or not) so he has to die to finish off Voldemort. First let me say I don't think he is one, but if I did, I still wouldn't think he had to die. If Harry is one, then he would have to die before Voldemort because canon leads us to believe that the bit in Voldemort has to be destroyed last or else he can come back because of the anchor the remaining bit would provide. So how is Harry supposed to kill Voldemort like the prophesy says he must, if he is already dead? Also I don't believe Harry would have to die to destroy the soul bit in him, is this was the case. The diary was damaged to destroy the soul, but it still existed after and the same was true for the ring. I would go so far to say that if Nagini is a horocrux, there would be a way to remove the soul piece without killing her, only it is easier just to kill a giant poisonous snake and what needs to be done anyway. (I think Nagini is a red herring but that's for another thread.)

5. Happily ever after would be cheesy, too predictable ect... This in itself seems to contradict the brother of this argument which states that Harry's death would be unpredictable and non cheesy for the simple fact that it is supported by the reasoning that Harry is to be a tragic hero. To clarify that a bit more. Doesn't that make him dying just as predictable as him living since it is a standard in the genre? Either ending is going to be predictable to someone so this excuse just doesn't hold water as far as I'm concerned. There is also the reasoning that there can't be a happily ever after for Harry no matter what happens. His parents can't come back. Sirius can't come back. Dumbledore can't come back. Harry can't unsuffer abuse at his relatives hands or unscar his emotions. All he can do is move forward and get on with living just like the rest of us. How is it cheesy to let him have a better life than he's known before. People do it all the time. Personally, I find that realistic. (of course I also married a boy I met when I was 14- whom it happens I dated then broke up with and then got back together with- take that as you will)

Now, why I think he will live.

1. JKR has set up a life for him after Voldemort. It's no secret that I am all for OBHWF. It gives Harry a living family to be a part of and a way to start his own.

2. I don't think killing Harry sends the right message. What is JKR trying to say? You were made an orphan as an infant, mistreated/abused as a child, only to find you are a wizard, but there's a catch, the crazed madman who murdered your parents is trying to come back and kill you and all over something you have no choice about and there is nothing you can do but lay down and die or kill him, so sorry that no matter how hard you fight, how much good you do, or how much you've overcome to be a good person, you don't get to ever really live. Where is the beauty in that, the hope, the good triumphing over evil? Personally, I don't see it, but that's just me.


Brilliant. Wonderfully put. I agree completely... Well, except for the not reading the book part. I think I'll be tempted to flip ahead a few pages, but I'll definitely read the book, no matter what the outcome. :rockon::tu:

Harry will live! I agree with many that say it wouldn't make sense to have Harry die in the end. He deserves to finally live a normal life. Plus who wants to go to a theme park about a boy how died. Universal Studios will open their new theme part around the same time that the final Harry Potter movie will be out, he has to live.

Harry will live! I agree with many that say it wouldn't make sense to have Harry die in the end. He deserves to finally live a normal life.
Actually when I heard that Mary Grandpre had said that there will be so sadness, I guessed that may be Harry will be killed or die or may be one of whom he loved.
Plus who wants to go to a theme park about a boy how died
But i don't think that will have alot of effect as there are people want to enjoy the magical world Jo had created ( going inside Hogsmade or Hogwarts ). Living as they are a Hogwarts students.

I think by saying that she can see where people coming from by killing of their main characters so as to nullify any unathorized revivals, was JKR's way of keeping us on our toes. Look at us- there are tons of people debating the topic of whether or not Harry will die after JKR said that. If she hadn't, most people would have agreed that he would like, b/c otherwise, lets face it, life as we know it would be over.

I think JKR is just having fun with us as a last laugh for the rumour-mongrels. Hey- hes giving us something to talk about- I don't mind.

The reason on why Harry is going to die for me doesn't have to do with all that talk about “ooooh, J.k. is tired of writing the books so she might as well kill Harry so she won’t have to write more of the story”. That’s nonsense for me.

The thing is, we have to understand at some point, for the own good of the history of the series itself, the most convincible, appropriate, intelligent way of finishing the book is by killing Harry. Why? Well, now I’m gonna tell you what I think J.K. Rowling’s will work on that.


If we think about what Harry represents for the society of the book, the magical people, we can assume easily that he is some kind of “myth”. What I mean is that he is an idealized person, an idol, a HERO. The only hope for the hopeless.

Now, let’s draw a parallel with our society. Think about some people who were really famous, glorified. Think about The Beatles, Marilyn Monroe, Elvis… Their image represented so much, even more then what they really were as humans. After all, they are just as normal as anyone else, but the society has a tendency of overrating famous people for just being famous.

Analyzing the “image” that those people have, now: I don’t know if you ever thought about that but… when someone, very famous and admired dies young, this elevates even more the significance of the person. Think about Elvis. I’m sure that if he didn’t die that time, if he had grown older, it wouldn’t be the same. After all, people don’t like to see their idols growing older…

So, that’s pretty much what I’m trying to say. I think Harry dies because that way he will be way more recognized, he will be a real “myth”: "you know, he died to save the world and everything”. It simply makes more sense to me. And if he lives we know that he’s propably going to marry Ginny, have children etc. It sounds too perfect for me and I’m sure you all already know that the books are not for children anymore…

I just hope I’m wrong even though I have faith in my theory.
.cheers :tu:

I think by saying that she can see where people coming from by killing of their main characters so as to nullify any unathorized revivals, was JKR's way of keeping us on our toes. Look at us- there are tons of people debating the topic of whether or not Harry will die after JKR said that. If she hadn't, most people would have agreed that he would like, b/c otherwise, lets face it, life as we know it would be over.

I think JKR is just having fun with us as a last laugh for the rumour-mongrels. Hey- hes giving us something to talk about- I don't mind.

I agree. :tu:

She had never even mentioned the possibility of Harry dying before fans started saying it after HBP. This whole controversy was started by us, and why would she put it to rest? It just increases the mystery.

After looking at the long, horrible life he's been put through, Harry's going to live. I'm sure of it.

I think your theory makes some sense, but in a way, sot so much. Yes, many famous people have died young, like Elvis, Marilyn, John Lennon, but there are plenty who didn't die young, like the remaining Beatles. Paul McCartney did not die young, and he was and still is an idol to many people. Plus, many of the people who idolized him were around his age, so they grew older along with him. Besides, those people who you mentioned, Elvis, Marilyn, etc., they, unlike Harry didn't choose to die young. Harry has a choice, and he chooses to go and face Voldemort because he knows he is the only one who can. The rest of them had a very differen't kind of fame than Harry, so while they all did die young, they were'nt trying to save the world by doing so, like Harry.

I agree. :tu:

She had never even mentioned the possibility of Harry dying before fans started saying it after HBP. This whole controversy was started by us, and why would she put it to rest? It just increases the mystery.

After looking at the long, horrible life he's been put through, Harry's going to live. I'm sure of it.

I don't think it started after HBP, did it? Surely the Prophecy was what put it in people's minds to begin with, and that was definitely a suggestion of a sort on her part, right? (I'm stubborn, I know, heh.)

After looking at the long, horrible life he's been put through, Harry's going to live. I'm sure of it.

What about Ron and Hermione, though? Ginny The Weasleys? Sirius? Dumbledore? Surely they made it worth it - he's still fighting, after all :)

I think that Harry will not die, and that Voldi will. I think this because it is what we all want and what we can only hope to happen and to come. It will be a suprise if this does not happen, but I will still enjoy reading the book to find out if all of my theories were correct, which is what inufan625 forgot to mention. No matter what happens, there will be billions of copies sold and tons of all-around-happy fans.

Ah, the one million dollar question: Will Harry Die?:hmm:

Ok so let's ponder on this for a minute if you will. JKR is not a heartless person so at the very least, good will win. therefore; voldermort will die. because if he didn't die, the wizarding world would be over run by evil and what kind of a person would she be if she just let that happen? now harry on the other hand could go either way. I think the main theme of these books is that love is the greatest of all powers. :love: and i think we all know that there is no greater love than when a man will lay down his life for a friend. which i think someone will do this for another character at some point in this book. Harry might for ron, hermione, or ginny.(or vice versa) If harry lives, i don't think he will become an auror like he says he will. i mean how much of evil hunting can one man take in a life time? i think it would be good if harry grew up and took dumbledore's place at hogwarts. how sweet!

so idk, harry might live or he might die. either way good will triumph over evil once again. good always wins, she JKR can't break that rule. no matter what i can't wait to get this last book. if there is to be crying for me instore then so be it. i cheated myself in HBP by reading the first sentce of the chapter The White Tomb. i'm not doing that this time. if there is crying to be done then let the tears flow. I really hope harry lives though.:err:

So, that’s pretty much what I’m trying to say. I think Harry dies because that way he will be way more recognized, he will be a real “myth”: "you know, he died to save the world and everything”. It simply makes more sense to me. And if he lives we know that he’s propably going to marry Ginny, have children etc. It sounds too perfect for me and I’m sure you all already know that the books are not for children anymore…
I can see where you are comming from with this theory and it something like it has been suggested on here before. To me, the whole "sacrificial plot" is too chliche. There is room for Harry to save the wizarding world and not die, so I still think there is hope that he will survive. Killing him off so that he becomes the mythical hero really serves no purpose (in my opinion). Harry has a life after Voldy to fight for and it would be heartbreaking to watch him journey to that point and not get the reward after. I believe that if Jo was planning to kill him off, she wouldn't have given anything to live for.

The reason on why Harry is going to die for me doesn't have to do with all that talk about “ooooh, J.k. is tired of writing the books so she might as well kill Harry so she won’t have to write more of the story”. That’s nonsense for me.

That's nonsense for me too. They can always be more books, no matter what Harry's fate is.

The thing is, we have to understand at some point, for the own good of the history of the series itself, the most convincible, appropriate, intelligent way of finishing the book is by killing Harry. Why? Well, now I’m gonna tell you what I think J.K. Rowling’s will work on that.

-sits, ready to listen-


If we think about what Harry represents for the society of the book, the magical people, we can assume easily that he is some kind of “myth”. What I mean is that he is an idealized person, an idol, a HERO. The only hope for the hopeless.

Sometimes he can be considered a hero. The important thing to remember is that Harry doesn't want to be a hero. He just wants to be himself. I think the fact that he was thrown into so much chaos will be a reason to allow him to survive. He's just a young boy, especially in wizard years.

Now, let’s draw a parallel with our society. Think about some people who were really famous, glorified. Think about The Beatles, Marilyn Monroe, Elvis… Their image represented so much, even more then what they really were as humans. After all, they are just as normal as anyone else, but the society has a tendency of overrating famous people for just being famous.

Oh, this is where I'll have to disagree. :no: In the American public, Marilyn Monroe was hardly a hero. She was a sex symbol... An actress in the movies. Did she give hope to the hopeless? Hardly. She was eye candy, and a signl that entertainment was only going to get more explicit. The Beatles were a great band, but later viewed as the symbolic sixties' group. Radicals that did drugs. Elvis was a singer. I don't think he's ever been a hero.

All of those people were glorified, yes. I don't see the parallel you're speaking of. Harry is a normal kid, who was thrown into the spotlight. These people chose the spotlight; Chose to be glorified and famous.

Nevertheless, I'm still listening. :rockon:

Analyzing the “image” that those people have, now: I don’t know if you ever thought about that but… when someone, very famous and admired dies young, this elevates even more the significance of the person. Think about Elvis. I’m sure that if he didn’t die that time, if he had grown older, it wouldn’t be the same. After all, people don’t like to see their idols growing older…

Not all people see their idols growing older, but many do. Think Mary Tyler Moore, Doris Day, Lucille Ball, Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise, Arnold [forgive me for the spelling of his last name] Shartse-... The governor of California. When people die young, it's seen as a tragedy. Their significance does not grow in all of the cases of stars or important people dying young. And it's not viewed highly, because many of the people you mentioned were killed in ways that were of their own doing. Their deaths have no relation to Harry Potter. I'm still not seeing the parallel.

There's also many stars who died young and nobody remembers them. James Dean was completely unknown in my American culture class, because he died in a car crash at a very young age. Selena was also killed at the height of her career.

Nevertheless, these people were not thrown into their situations, and all felt a time of pure, free happiness at some point of their lives. Harry has never got to feel that. He will live because he deserves to after all he's done.

So, that’s pretty much what I’m trying to say. I think Harry dies because that way he will be way more recognized, he will be a real “myth”: "you know, he died to save the world and everything”. It simply makes more sense to me.

I don't think that it matters that he's recognized. The idea of it becoming a better "myth" doesn't seem relevant, because whether he lives or dies, he'll still have the story of a century.

I think all that matters is that Harry gets to live a normal life for once. He's didn't ask for any of this... Voldemort chose him. He's had to deal with it, not only for himself, but for the entire wizarding world. And dying to save them would not only be repetitive, but so selfless that it's not meaningful to me at all. So many people died so that he could live. And by him dying, it seems that their sacrifices would be in vain. Sure, Voldy would be dead.. But shouldn't Harry get some good in his life?

I think that love will conquer all..
-breaks out into song, again..-
:err:

And if he lives we know that he’s propably going to marry Ginny, have children etc. It sounds too perfect for me and I’m sure you all already know that the books are not for children anymore…

I just hope I’m wrong even though I have faith in my theory.
.cheers :tu:

Children still read them. That may not be relevant, but many, many kids do.

It's not too perfect. After going through all that trouble, good conquered evil. After going through every horrible hurdle in his life, are we going to show people that one has to sacrifice himself? Or will we show that theme that after a long period of struggle, one can be happy?

But he can get rewarded, even in death. He can be reunited with Sirius, Dumbldore, James and Lilly. In many ways that would be quite a nice image.

I don't think it started after HBP, did it? Surely the Prophecy was what put it in people's minds to begin with, and that was definitely a suggestion of a sort on her part, right? (I'm stubborn, I know, heh.)

It might have a bit, but because Voldemort is assumed to die by so many, I don't think the possibility struck many as much as it did by HBP, when Dumbly died. That's when the possibility really struck me.

But he can get rewarded, even in death. He can be reunited with Sirius, Dumbldore, James and Lilly. In many ways that would be quite a nice image.

I don't think that JKR would have given Harry love in the form of Ginny if she was going to kill him off. :love:
By giving him a life after the war, she gave him something to live for. Sirius, Lily, Dumbly... All of them wouldn't want him to die just to see them. He'd see them after he died as a very old wizard. Surely they'll wait for him in the afterlife.

What about Ron and Hermione, though? Ginny The Weasleys? Sirius? Dumbledore? Surely they made it worth it - he's still fighting, after all :)

Oh, I agree that they made his life worth it...

I just think that Harry deserves some happiness with no worries anymore. Where he's not looking over his shoulder all of the time. He needs to live so he can be normal. Well, normal in the sense that a murderer isn't after him 24/7. :rockon:

I don't think that JKR would have given Harry love in the form of Ginny if she was going to kill him off. :love:
By giving him a life after the war, she gave him something to live for. Sirius, Lily, Dumbly... All of them wouldn't want him to die just to see them. He'd see them after he died as a very old wizard. Surely they'll wait for him in the afterlife.


If Harry loved her I don't think he would have dumped her at a funeral. I know he had a lot to deal with but that is a new low. Maybe even worse than Tonks' behaviour in the hospital. Maybe he loves her, maybe not. But in Rowling's world it seems clear that there is an afterlife and his family are there. And, in a sense, death doesn't stop you living. It's just another phase, I believe Dumbledore himself told Harry that once.

I hope not. Harry Rulez!!!

If Harry loved her I don't think he would have dumped her at a funeral. I know he had a lot to deal with but that is a new low. Maybe even worse than Tonks' behaviour in the hospital. Maybe he loves her, maybe not. But in Rowling's world it seems clear that there is an afterlife and his family are there. And, in a sense, death doesn't stop you living. It's just another phase, I believe Dumbledore himself told Harry that once.

I think that Harry "dumped her" out of love. If you remember, he just mentioned that they shouldn't be connected. If Voldemort found out that Harry was tied to Ginny, and he would kill her.

Sacrificing his relationship [which obviously pained him, because he turned and left when Ginny started telling him why she liked him so much] for her benefit seems like love to me. :love:

Love, or something a lot like it.

Dumping someone because you love them? At a funeral? Sorry, I really can't see it. Sure, Voldemort could have killed her but why didn't Harry think of that before? He's rash and still irresponsible, that's why. The whole sorry affair seemed more like a schoolboy crush than anything else. But even if Voldemort did kill her it wouldn't matter would it?

If Harry loved her I don't think he would have dumped her at a funeral. I know he had a lot to deal with but that is a new low. Maybe even worse than Tonks' behaviour in the hospital. Maybe he loves her, maybe not. But in Rowling's world it seems clear that there is an afterlife and his family are there. And, in a sense, death doesn't stop you living. It's just another phase, I believe Dumbledore himself told Harry that once.

I think that might not have been permanent. There are too many other ends left open in the end of HBP to take ever action and intention for face value. I think he dumped her to protect her (whether or not she needed it or wanted it is another story). Harry has seen the pattern of horrible things happening to those he loves so dearly and I think he's reluctant to let anyone else in.

I am almost positive Harry will live. He spent the first 11 years of his life utterly worthless to anyone. His years at Hogwarts have been constant strife and sorrow for him (although he does find love from others). I think he deserves some time in his life to NOT be a victim.

(although Jo's revealing of her Christian views and that those views will effect the story worry me a great deal)

Why would Rowling's Christian views worry you?

Dumping someone because you love them? At a funeral? Sorry, I really can't see it. Sure, Voldemort could have killed her but why didn't Harry think of that before? He's rash and still irresponsible, that's why. The whole sorry affair seemed more like a schoolboy crush than anything else. But even if Voldemort did kill her it wouldn't matter would it?

To protect her. Because he doesn't want her to be used as bait, and he doesn't want her hurt. He tried to do the same to Ron and Hermione, remember? Leaving them behind so they wouldn't get hurt?

And it "wouldn't matter"? His girlfriend, his best friend's sister - it really wouldn't matter if she died?

I think that might not have been permanent. There are too many other ends left open in the end of HBP to take ever action and intention for face value. I think he dumped her to protect her (whether or not she needed it or wanted it is another story). Harry has seen the pattern of horrible things happening to those he loves so dearly and I think he's reluctant to let anyone else in.

I am almost positive Harry will live. He spent the first 11 years of his life utterly worthless to anyone. His years at Hogwarts have been constant strife and sorrow for him (although he does find love from others). I think he deserves some time in his life to NOT be a victim.


:tu:

Why would Rowling's Christian views worry you?

The idea of sacrifice.
I thought it could mean that Harry would be a Christ figure.

The idea of sacrifice.
I thought it could mean that Harry would be a Christ figure.

I don't see Harry as a Christ figure.
And I don't think she's incorporating religion into this too much. Maybe a bit, but not to the point of making him a sacrificial figure.

It's been months since I've been on so I may be repetitive. I posted this on the wrong thread before - again sorry. Let me know ifthis has already been discussed.

Can't Harry be killed and return as a ghost? Harry has been very curious about how ghosts come into being. We don't know much how wizards become ghosts- only what Nick said (being afraid and not willing to let go) Harry won't be afraid to die, but perhaps that's not the only reason one has to become a ghost.

Maybe it could be for strong attachment of some kind to the physcial world - like maybe LV. Maybe if Harry becomes a ghost he fulfills the prophesy by not allowing LV to live because Harry still survives (the prophesy never said physcially survive). If Harry survives, LV can never "LIVE", therby Harry vanquishing him.

Not only does this allow Harry to win, but then JKR doesn't have to worry about her hero really being eliminated for her young fans. After all, Harry can still speak and have gags with his friends and be a part of their lives. Also, no other author can steal Harry because having a ghost hero is rather difficult to use. It would essentially finish the series for both her, the kids, and any future writing thieves.

If Harry loved her I don't think he would have dumped her at a funeral.
But that is why he dumped her. I am not saying he was right in doing so, because he didn't see that Ginny is a powergirl and can take care of herself. He loves her so much in fact that in his mind he had to "keep her safe".

Sure, Voldemort could have killed her but why didn't Harry think of that before? He's rash and still irresponsible, that's why.
This may be so at some points. Chuck it up to typical teenage behavior. However, given the state that Harry was in. He just lost Dumbledore, the year before Sirius, and the year before that Cedric. All of which deaths he sees himself as having a role leading to it. He realized at the funeral that after DD was dead, Ginny was the last person he wanted to see go that route, so he broke up with her.

(although Jo's revealing of her Christian views and that those views will effect the story worry me a great deal)
Its okay, I think the sacrifice that we saw came from Dumbledore. I think it has to do more with the underlying of the morals and values of the story than anything.

Harry won't die, he has too much to live for.

I don't see Harry as a Christ figure.
And I don't think she's incorporating religion into this too much. Maybe a bit, but not to the point of making him a sacrificial figure.


This is how I feel as well, but that quote just made me a little curious about "the other possibility"

There is actually a significant amount of christian symbolism in the books however I do not see Harry as a Christ figure. Maybe it is hopeless optimism, but I think Harry will survive.

The entire book is a war between good and evil, with the majority of the foreshadowing pointing towards good triumphing. So, thus, the only two options are for Voldermort to die or for both Harry and Voldermort to die. However the prophesy would not make any sense if both of them died.

So Harry must kill Voldermort...this in itself presents another problem as killing tears apart a soul. And love comes into play here but I do not know how. I am only convinced that Harry survives

I'm Catholic, and I see some open similarities, but not between Harry and Jesus. I think that Harry's uncanny ability to love, his strong will and courage, his drive to do only what is right, etc, are the similarities that Jo indicates. Because those things are basically taught in christianity. If she were to make Harry sacrifice himself, I would really be surprised. After all, most of the stuff that she draws comparances to are subtle. Something like that would be blaringly obvious.

Also, I posted this in another thread, but it's a very convincing editorial by Lady Lupin as to how Harry might use love and light to his advantage, without actually having to use a single Avada Kedavra.

http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/spinnersend/se14.shtml

Anyway, I don't think Harry will end up dying. And if he does, I don't think Jo would dare make him go to the afterlife and meet everyone who's died. Nice as it may sound, it's just corny. The thing that really makes me uneasy is what's said in SC/PC:

"To the well prepared mind, death is but the next great adventure."

Let's just hope that this was a foreshadowing of Dumbledore's death, and not Harry's.

About the "leave no possibility of a sequel aspect," if they can make a sequel for "The Departed" (which they are currently doing, I kid you not), then no story is safe from a sequel, no matter who you kill.

I got a question about the whole theme park thing...a lot of people are saying that Harry will live because they wouldn't make a park if he dies, but how does Universal know if he lives or die? Is there confirmation that Jo told them?

i dont think the theme park is connected to the 'outcome' of the books. infact i doubt it follows plotlines of any of the books, more so the essence of it, like magic, hogwarts, wizards. and new common things that pop up everywhere (hogsmeade, the flying car thing, dragons,...)

jo wouldnt reveal the ending to them, no way.

Harry won't die but he will dangle dangerously close to doing so. So much so, that he will probably "meet" his parents before all of this is over.

OK, Rowling has definitely not promised that Harry lives. However, we know from the prophecy that Harry, Voldemort, or both will have to die. Now frankly, while Harry could die, if Voldemort kills him and lives himself, I really don't see how that is a satisfying end. So option 1 seems closed to me. Either just Voldemort dies, or both Harry and Voldemort buy it.

Agreed :agree: And thanks for that- even though there is a prophecy saying someone will die there is, in fact, no promise that Harry will live.

OK, part 2. A LOT of people have sacrificed to keep Harry safe and alive. Do the deaths of his parents, Cedric [yes, I know Cedric wanted to live, but remember what he and Frank said in Goblet of Fire when Harry had the showdown with Voldemort], numerous members of the Order, indirectly Sirius and Albus Dumbledore make sense in the end if all they did was let Harry die later? I don't see changing 'The Boy Who Lived' into 'The Young Man Who Died Anyway' as a satisfying plot.

Yeah, but sometimes even when people do their best for you, you can still fail. It happens. The deaths that have occurred bring Harry to various realizations, which will all be for naught if he doesn't get a clue quick and learn from the sacrifices that have been made.

Personally, I'd be less satisfied with these books if Harry's survival was guaranteed. I think he's going to have to earn life- even after everything he's gone through- and I hope JKR makes him work for it.

And finally, the title. "Deathly Hallows". Ahhhhhhhhhh, there's a carefully chosen phrase.

"Deathly". NOT "Deadly", not "Dead", but "Deathly", as in contact with Death, but not dying himself. It implies help from the dead, as we saw foreshadowed in 'Goblet of Fire', and it reminds me of what Voldemort fears most. Since Voldy fears death, there is no way he can access help from the other side, and I doubt he's got a lot of friends there anyway.

And "Hallows". As in to make holy, but more important, Hallows, not Hallows' Eve, which is Halloween, but Hallows, as in the next day. The title clearly implies that Harry will be finished with the events and enemy of Halloween, Voldemort who killed his parents, and will be able to move on, to the 'next day' and on with his life.

Ooh, I like it! :agree: Shades of Tony Goldwyn being sucked into the ether by spirits a la "Ghost." Ditto on that :D :tu:

Of course, Halloween is a significant day in the Potterverse, so it will be interesting to see what events occur on that day that usher in that all-important "next day." (Hopefully something more significant that Ron and Hermione finally coupling up :p )

I'm wondering if JKR's book tour is an "explain why I killed Harry" tour - with grief counselling !

If Harry were to die and Voldemort were to live, would Voldemort just be a rein of terror among the entire world (not just the wizarding world) forever? or, since Harry would have detroyed all of his horcrux's before the final battle (which seems logical), would anyone be able to kill him due to the fact that the horcrux's are gone? or, if Voldemort were to somehow find out that his horcrux's were being destroyed or knows that all of them are already destroyed how do you think he'd cope with that??

I suspect Harry will not die per se, but he will wind up beyond the realm of the living, beyond veil, with Sirius and possibly his parents, and maybe even Dumbledore. This would certainly give the book some emotional depth, as Harry will not return to live happily ever after, but nor will he just die. I think this bittersweet ending is just what Rowling has in mind.

I think that the fact that JKR put Ginny as Harry's "ideal girl" points to Harry surviving the series. Why go through the trouble of creating an ideal girl for him if she was planning to kill him off all along? She also says that she always intended them to “come together and then part”. Why do that, unless she intends them to get together for good in the end?

I think that Harry will not die, and that Voldi will. I think this because it is what we all want and what we can only hope to happen and to come. It will be a suprise if this does not happen, but I will still enjoy reading the book to find out if all of my theories were correct, which is what inufan625 forgot to mention. No matter what happens, there will be billions of copies sold and tons of all-around-happy fans.

I didn't forget to mention it. I said very clearly that if he dies I won't be buying the book and I won't be happy. And I wager that there will be at least a few crazy fans like me that will be just as dissatisfied.


But he can get rewarded, even in death. He can be reunited with Sirius, Dumbldore, James and Lilly. In many ways that would be quite a nice image.

Hmmm.. you think so?

Personally I don't see anything nice about the death of a 17 year old who spent his entire life being abused and then fighting to survive, only to save the world and then never get a chance to REALLY live.

His parents, family, and friends aren't going anywhere and will be waiting for him in 5 years, 50 years, or 500 years. I seriously doubt they would want that for him.

I think that the fact that JKR put Ginny as Harry's "ideal girl" points to Harry surviving the series. Why go through the trouble of creating an ideal girl for him if she was planning to kill him off all along? She also says that she always intended them to “come together and then part”. Why do that, unless she intends them to get together for good in the end?

But you just said she intended them to "come together and then part"- you didn't say nuffin' about them getting back together again :p

By the same token, one could have argued several books ago that Sirius should have lived- why else would JKR have reintroduced Harry's godfather back into his life?- and we all know how that turned out...

No is What i am Hoping For.my Theory is that Harry and the Dark lord will have there duel in an isolated area and all of his closest Friends Dead or Hurt and it just Harry and the Dark lord.They will Duel to the Death and Harry will Cause Voldermorts wand to Show his parents not Cedric or anyone else just his parents watching there Son and Giving him Hope for a Future world and himself and Ginny :).Harry will ultimately Defeat the Dark lord without a Spell or his wand Jo will have him Defeat with of Course Love.He will Be a changed boy(man;)).Harry will Try to lead a normal life but it will never work.(Cough Just like Jake from Animorphs Cough)He will Be utterly Depressed in the end.So yes that my Therory.

Harry won't die but he will dangle dangerously close to doing so. So much so, that he will probably "meet" his parents before all of this is over.

I can see something like this for Harry and a few other characters. Where they will survive, but barely. I see some serious injuries.

Personally I don't see anything nice about the death of a 17 year old who spent his entire life being abused and then fighting to survive, only to save the world and then never get a chance to REALLY live.
I can definately agree with you on this one. Jo is an amazing writer (as we know) and she has had the story down since the beginning. Yet, if he dies, she will have a chore on how to get past this one.

But you just said she intended them to "come together and then part"- you didn't say nuffin' about them getting back together again :p

By the same token, one could have argued several books ago that Sirius should have lived- why else would JKR have reintroduced Harry's godfather back into his life?- and we all know how that turned out...

What I meant to say was- why make them "come together and part" if she didn't intend to get them back together for good? Harry would have someone to return to, someone to live for once the war is over :)

Sirius' story is completely different. JKR is yet to reveal why she had to kill him off. One of the reasons of course is that the hero must face the villain alone. Which is where, I suspect, the "come together and part" comes in Ginny's case.

As I said earlier, JKR has described Ginny as Harry's "ideal girl". Why would she create an "ideal girl" for him if he was going to die in the end?

Harry is gradually letting go of his losses and starting to build a life. He's temporarily set that new life aside to remove the obstacle (Voldermort) that remains to prevent him from living that life. I think JKR is writing Harry to move forward to fight for what he can have, not go back to what he's lost. As a result, I don't agree that Harry's lost too much or that JKR is writing his character to be reunited with the family that he's lost; instead she's writing him building a new family with Ron, Hermione and Ginny.

This is a remarkable way of putting it! For a while I've been convinced Harry will die in this upcoming installment, and I've heard many views from both sides. Almost every time I hear someone position themselves on the "Harry lives" side, I never hear the exact reasons why. Some of them explain it the way you have, but never so explicitly. This makes a lot of sense to me, and I'm very tempted to switch my views... :p

As you aptly put it, Harry will be fighting for what he can have. However, I wasn't necessarily saying Harry will be wanting to go back to what he's lost, assuming he does die. :hmm: Now I'm just confused!!

You made a great point that Harry has something to go back to. I wonder, though, that even with positive things and a family to look forward to...will Harry be happy with a life free of Voldemort? Because throughout the novels, we've seen Harry with few "life" ambitions aside from revenge on Voldemort:

He wants to be an Auror. After Voldemort is gone...yes, there will be evil wizards still. But we've only ever seen Aurors in the last two books do a couple things. Kingsley Shacklebolt, the Auror Dawlish, and even Tonks have been used as what? Bodyguards? Escorts?

Would Harry, after living through something so astounding and huge as defeating Voldemort, be content guarding the Minister of Magic for the rest of his life?
I'm not convinced of either side anymore because I think they both have good points...we'll just have to wait for DH to be sure!! :drool:

First
I believe Harry will live, and I'll go so far as to prove myself a crazy fangirl by saying that I plan on reading the end at the store before buying it and if he dies I won't be buying it. First, because I think it's a cop out. Second, if I don't read the whole thing then it won't be as hard to pretend it didn't happen when I read fan-fiction. Lastly, I will be able to find out everything that happened on the internet rather than spend money on a book that I won't enjoy finishing. Should Harry be alive then I won't consider myself spoiled in the least, since it's the journey that's important.


....i think you contradicted yourself here. By saying that you won't buy the book if the ending isn't what you like and then stating that it's the journey that's important...

what if Jo has a very good reason for doing what she does in the course of the books? (which, i have to remind everyone, she most likely does)

I mean, look at Dumbledore. I certainly didn't want him to die, but Jo made it very clear in interviews that there's a reason for all of it.

I can't say you're wrong for your beliefs---after all, I wouldn't want to buy a book i wouldn't enjoy...But I guess I'm pleading with you to at least give it a chance before passing judgement. IF Harry dies, JK wouldn't do it just to say "okay, now no one can finish my series"...she's been at this for too long to do it that way. After all...it's her story. :love:

That's nonsense for me too. They can always be more books, no matter what Harry's fate is....

Sometimes he can be considered a hero. The important thing to remember is that Harry doesn't want to be a hero. He just wants to be himself. I think the fact that he was thrown into so much chaos will be a reason to allow him to survive. He's just a young boy, especially in wizard years.

...There's also many stars who died young and nobody remembers them. James Dean was completely unknown in my American culture class, because he died in a car crash at a very young age. Selena was also killed at the height of her career.

...I don't think that it matters that he's recognized. The idea of it becoming a better "myth" doesn't seem relevant, because whether he lives or dies, he'll still have the story of a century.
....Children still read them. That may not be relevant, but many, many kids do.

It's not too perfect. After going through all that trouble, good conquered evil. After going through every horrible hurdle in his life, are we going to show people that one has to sacrifice himself? Or will we show that theme that after a long period of struggle, one can be happy?



Hear, Hear!!:tu:
I think you're all right about the fact that SOMEONE SOMEWHERE will make a loophole if they REALLY want to copy Harry Potter and continue the story. It could happen.
I also was just waiting for someone to mention James Dean!! :p

And you are quite right, many children DO still read the series. I agree wholeheartedly :agree: that there's room for Harry to live and that he can be happy....I'm still on the fence as to what will actually happen, but I think it's worth pointing out that everyone can argue their own side reasonably well.

I don't think JKR is writing in the way you're proposing. Harry is no longer looking back to the people he's lost - he was happier than he's ever been at the end of HBP. Harry is gradually letting go of his losses and starting to build a life. He's temporarily set that new life aside to remove the obstacle (Voldermort) that remains to prevent him from living that life. I think JKR is writing Harry to move forward to fight for what he can have, not go back to what he's lost. As a result, I don't agree that Harry's lost too much or that JKR is writing his character to be reunited with the family that he's lost; instead she's writing him building a new family with Ron, Hermione and Ginny.

Good point. Thank you, Taylor Elise for actually reading back and quoting this (so I could look for it and read it for myself).

What I meant to say was- why make them "come together and part" if she didn't intend to get them back together for good? Harry would have someone to return to, someone to live for once the war is over :)

Sirius' story is completely different. JKR is yet to reveal why she had to kill him off. One of the reasons of course is that the hero must face the villain alone. Which is where, I suspect, the "come together and part" comes in Ginny's case.

As I said earlier, JKR has described Ginny as Harry's "ideal girl". Why would she create an "ideal girl" for him if he was going to die in the end?

What really confuses me is that you talk about the hero facing the villain alone relating to the "come together and part" bit- Harry and Ginny broke up because Harry thinks that he needs to face Voldemort alone and is protecting Ginny by breaking up with her. Sirius died, basically, because for Harry to be truly alone he needs to lose the one last (sympathetic) tie he has to his parents. In both instances there is a chance that once the hero faces the final reckoning he will be reunited with the person he parted from- that's what usually happens. I just don't think it needs to, or will, happen here.

The break-up of Harry and Ginny is a convention created by the hero myth and carried out by the character within the parallels of the story- Harry has gone it alone before, in his experience it's the way to go, and thus he breaks up with her. The death of Sirius is also a convention but created by the author, to (again) fit the convention of the hero myth (Campbell states that the hero breaks all ties before undergoing his journey) and molded by the events of the story- Harry is a character that must be bereft of everything so that he can find the strength within, therefore Sirius has to be eaten by drapery. One is governed by the character, one by the author.

The argument that Harry is going to live because Ginny (aka "The Ideal Girl") merely exists just doesn't wash for me. Possibly because the relationship cropped up so suddenly and was so brief- frankly I don't see enough evidence to suggest that suggest that Ginny is what Harry has to live for. If Harry lives for or because of anything it will most likely be because he grew up and learned a few things (finally) such as:
he finally understands the importance of love (for his friends- which, to be fair, could include Ginny);
he has confidence in the love others have for him (again, his friends); and
he is unafraid to die to save others.

Short version- while Ginny may be part of that learned lesson, I don't think she will be the sole reason for Harry's survival. Something he tried to ensure himself by breaking up with her.

As for "ideal" anything, ever read "Tess of the d'Urbervilles" by Hardy? Angel is the ideal lover for Tess, and there are break-ups, incidents and accidents that keep them apart- but even when they reunite it doesn't stop the heroine from meeting an unhappy fate.

If Harry lives for or because of anything it will most likely be because he grew up and learned a few things (finally) such as:
he finally understands the importance of love (for his friends- which, to be fair, could include Ginny);
he has confidence in the love others have for him (again, his friends); and
he is unafraid to die to save others.

Short version- while Ginny may be part of that learned lesson, I don't think she will be the sole reason for Harry's survival. Something he tried to ensure himself by breaking up with her.

I completely agree with what you said. I didn't say Ginny is the sole reason for Harry's survival, nor do I believe so. I'm sorry if I wasn't clearer earlier, but I consider Ginny being described as Harry's "ideal girl" as an add-on to the list of reasons supporting Harry's survival. I decided to post it as I felt it hadn't been pointed out before in this thread. In fact, I wrote an editorial on mugglenet a couple of years back listing the reasons why I felt Harry would survive the series, using JKR's quotes to back me up. It's here (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-pythia01.shtml) if you're interested.

It's hard, I'd say there's a 50/50 chance (I think the 4/1 ods What Will Happen in Book 7 are way off)

Would Harry, after living through something so astounding and huge as defeating Voldemort, be content guarding the Minister of Magic for the rest of his life?
I'm not convinced of either side anymore because I think they both have good points...we'll just have to wait for DH to be sure!! :drool:

Thanks for the comments!

I think you've posed a difficult question, but I don't think it offers much support to the theory that Harry will die. I can't see JKR killing Harry merely because she has trouble giving him a profession after he defeats Voldermort.

JKR has emphasized several times through the first six books that Harry just wants to be normal. He hates the fate that's been dealt to him and would give anything to be Ron, or Neville. I don't think the Harry that JKR has created will have any trouble with any kind of job. I think we as fans have developed an expectation for Harry as a kind of hero, and what's the hero going to do if he's achieved his life's ambition at seventeen?

Except that's not Harry. JKR's Harry is just a kid who's been put in an extraordinary situation and struggled to make the best of that situation. At the end of book 7 he'll still be a kid in many ways and I don't think he'll have any trouble at all with a "normal" life. In so many ways it won't be normal for Harry. For the first time he'll be able to make his own choices, buy his own clothes, enjoy time with his friends. Things we take for granted will be completely new for Harry, and he'll turn those experiences into his own adventure.

I can't see JKR killing Harry merely because she has trouble giving him a profession after he defeats Voldermort.

JKR has emphasized several times through the first six books that Harry just wants to be normal. He hates the fate that's been dealt to him and would give anything to be Ron, or Neville. I don't think the Harry that JKR has created will have any trouble with any kind of job. I think we as fans have developed an expectation for Harry as a kind of hero, and what's the hero going to do if he's achieved his life's ambition at seventeen?

Except that's not Harry. JKR's Harry is just a kid who's been put in an extraordinary situation and struggled to make the best of that situation. At the end of book 7 he'll still be a kid in many ways and I don't think he'll have any trouble at all with a "normal" life. In so many ways it won't be normal for Harry. For the first time he'll be able to make his own choices, buy his own clothes, enjoy time with his friends. Things we take for granted will be completely new for Harry, and he'll turn those experiences into his own adventure.

Hey, no problem. I really enjoy these forums, so discussions like this are what keep me going until the book is finally released! :love:

I see your point about not killing Harry just for lack of profession. What I should have said to be clear was that the "Auror" point was a facet of my argument. I believe, Hero or not, Harry is someone that has lived the last six (almost seven) years of his life with a single, driving purpose. Not just as a character, but as a person and in his own mind, he craves revenge/defeat of Voldemort due to the murder of his parents. Whether we look at Harry as a kid placed in extreme situations (which, I think you're absolutley correct, he is in no way the "Superman" of the novel--simply a kid with a destiny) or as a puffed up "save the day" character, he's still going to have trouble getting back to his craved normal life after killing Voldemort.

Now, to clarify

I'm not saying that just because Harry goes through something difficult doesn't mean he can't get through it. Look at the death of Cedric. Sure, he had nightmares for a while, the mere thought of the graveyard haunted him, he constantly dreamt about the horrors he saw. But he grew from it, learned, and moved on.

Assuming Harry lives, this is what will have to happen. Not because of the Hero mold, but because of the human nature mold. Every person that goes through something traumatic will have a mourning or grieving period before they're ready to move on with their lives. It's only natural.

The point I was trying to make earlier is that "normal" life Harry so craves is going to take a long time to be used to. Not just for Harry, but everyone. Imagine--wizards and witches have lived in fear of a name for 20 years. There's no more "you-know-who" phrases to skirt around. No more searches or CONSTANT VIGILANCE! on the lookout for a floating soul that might be Voldemort...he's going to be gone.

What I was trying to get at (I'm long-winded, forgive me) was that Harry, yes, has a purpose as a character in a novel, and no, just because he fulfills that does not mean you have to kill him off as an author. But think about Harry's life from the very first moment he learned he was a wizard up until now, the end of his sixth year at Hogwarts. In the back of his mind, the whole time, he's had this fixture that "VOLDEMORT KILLED MY PARENTS"...

He won't have that anymore. So what will he focus on? I know he'll have the future to think about, he'll have Ron and Hermione, Ginny, a family in the Weasleys, all that. But Harry's not going to wake up in the morning and go, "Okay, I'm going to enjoy my family today!" A bit harsh of an analysis, I know. Sorry... :p (And again, I know Harry currently doesn't wake up going "Okay, let's defeat Voldemort today!" But you have to admit...it's more constant at the forefront of his mind--especially because it's something to work towards. Having a family is something he will have already achieved after this...what will he be motivated to do?)

As for your comment on doing normal things, I disagree with you there. Harry has been able to make his own choices, buy his own clothes, and hang out with his friends since he found out he was a wizard. That's exactly what Diagon Alley represented to him. Remember Fortescue? During the summer of PoA, he used to sit there taking to Florean, eating ice cream because he wanted to. He bought his own robes from Madam Malkins, even. I think you're right about Harry having a normal life, I just think the examples you used were a bit out of place. Those are all things Harry has been able to do since learning of his abilities. That's what made being a wizard so special to Harry is that it represented a chance to live his life on his own, away from the Dursleys.

I don't know, but I do know that there are a lot of people who would risk their lives to save Harry:

Ron
Hermione
Neville
Ginny
Snape (assuming he's good)
Wormtail (because of the life debt)
Molly
Arthur

As for Taylor_Elise's long-winded message above, well, if all goes well then that'll happen!

disclaimer: With the exception of possibly the computer, Harry Potter is the best thing ever invented on earth! We read them over and over for fun, we argue about what'll happen next, we are brought together as fans by the books. Harry Potter is one of the highest things most of us value in life, and nothing about this will change when Deathly Hallows comes out. We will ponder over what will happen after the series as our never answered questions go on.

And now, I bestow great thanks upon the person who brought us together on MuggleNet and CoS, Emerson Spartz, and encourage all readers of this message to spread it on.

I think that the chance that he will die, is like, 50/50. I can see Harry doing something heroic, like, getting hurt/killed, after Voldemort himself dies, like, "If I'm going down, I'm taking you down with me" But in reality, I'm not really sure, depends on JKR.

I think that the chance that he will die, is like, 50/50. I can see Harry doing something heroic, like, getting hurt/killed, after Voldemort himself dies, like, "If I'm going down, I'm taking you down with me" But in reality, I'm not really sure, depends on JKR.

Haha, that's actually really funny you say that...I can see Harry being stubborn like that. :p

I completely agree with what you said. I didn't say Ginny is the sole reason for Harry's survival, nor do I believe so. I'm sorry if I wasn't clearer earlier, but I consider Ginny being described as Harry's "ideal girl" as an add-on to the list of reasons supporting Harry's survival. I decided to post it as I felt it hadn't been pointed out before in this thread. In fact, I wrote an editorial on mugglenet a couple of years back listing the reasons why I felt Harry would survive the series, using JKR's quotes to back me up. It's here (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-pythia01.shtml) if you're interested.

I'll take a look, thanks :)

I guess you can probably tell that I'm not a 'shipper, so waving the H/G flag at me is like waving a red flag at a bull... but I'm much MUCH more adorable. And I have chocolate in my desk drawer, so I'm not all bad. :love:

I haven't read all the posts but I think Harry will die. The prophecy just seems to say that.

Either must die at the hand of the other

So, Harry must kill Voldemort, or Voldemort must kill Harry. Simple.

For neither can live while the other survives

If Harry kills Voldemort then Harry must die because he's killed Voldemort. But then if Voldemort kills Harry, he must die because he killed Harry. Make sense?

Of course there'll probably be some in depth reason why Harry will die, more important than the prophecy reason I just gave.

Also if you look at OotP. Harry says something about the line For neither can live while the other survives. I think Jo drew importance to this line because it suggests that Harry could die. Also again in HBP, he refers to the same line of the prophecy.
Of course it could just be a red herring. Oh well.

Happy fourth birthday Order of the Phoenix!!

EITHER must die etc means to me that one or the other msut die - NOT both. I have therefore come to the conclusion that it all boils down to interpretation and not what Jo has written......

EITHER must die etc means to me that one or the other msut die - NOT both. I have therefore come to the conclusion that it all boils down to interpretation and not what Jo has written......

And if you recall Trelawney's prophecies don't always have a literal interpretation- often there's a double meaning to her words, leading to that warm and fuzzy "Aha!" moment when you realize it would be reinterpreted. JKR did say, though, that she "and Trelawney" worded the prophecy very carefully.

Less than a month until we find the answer! :)

I didn't say it was that quote. Reread my post and you'll see that the quote I was referring to was the "For neither can live while the other survives " quote.

You are right though. it all depends on how you interpret the prophecy and only Jo knows how it should be interpreted. This is just my interpretation and what I think the prophecy means.

I dont want him to, but I think Harry will die. Ive been a while on theese boards & again & again it is thrown in, that all questions are already answered in book 1 (dont ask me where i read that though)

Ive just finished reading Philosophers Stone and the bit inm the forrest with the centaurs has always given me the creeps, but this time round I asked myself, why the other centaurs were so angry with Firenze, apart from him degrading himself to a "horse"

It seems to me, as if they think he is trying to change what has been foreseen in the stars. I think that is even the main reason why they are angry.

Rereading that passage makes me think they have seen the final showdown between HP and Voldy will lead to Harrys death and I think they also foresaw that it will happen in the magical forrest. Perhaps thats why they were so angry, perhaps they thought that the time had already come and Firenze was interfering by saving Harry.

Just my 2 Cents - but I beleive that is what we will see in Book 7.

nano