Goblins: Group Character Analysis

Thanks, guad for putting lots and lots of material together!

Goblins (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/bestiary/goblins.html) are magical creatures we encounter for the first time in PS/SS. They are mentioned several times throughout the series and we know quite a few things about them.


Goblins run Gringotts, the only known Wizarding bank.
Several Goblin Rebellions are mentioned in History of Magic.
One Goblin family was killed near Nottingham in the first Voldywar.
Goblins placed bets with Ludo Bagman in GoF.
The Ministry covered up the Bagman issue, never helping the Goblins to get their money back.
The Quibbler article, in which Fudge was accused of killing Goblins and turning them into pies. Though the details were most likely wrong, the essence of the article, namely severe discrimination against Goblins in the Ministry, is probably correct.
Bill negotiated with Ragnok.
The Fountain of Magical Brethren.
Goblins have their own language called Gobbledegook.


Goblins are a race of highly intelligent creatures who live side by side with wizards. Goblins are considered to be inferior by many wizards, who foolishly believe that the goblins are comfortable with that arrangement. In fact, goblins are extremely clever and more than able to stand up to wizards. The fact that the wizarding population treats them poorly is evidence of the severe injustice built into wizard culture. Ironically, the Fountain of Magical Brethren in the Atrium of the Ministry of Magic shows a goblin, along with a house-elf and a centaur, gazing admiringly at a witch and wizard.

[...]

Throughout the history of the wizarding world there have been rebellions where the goblins have fought against the discrimination and prejudice. These goblin rebellions were most prevalent in the 1600s (PA5) and 1700s (GF15, OP31), but even today there are subversive goblin groups who work in secret against the Ministry, according to the Daily Prophet (OP15). One rebellion, in 1612, took place in the vicinity of Hogsmeade; the Inn there was used as headquarters for the rebellion (PA5). The rebellions have been described as "bloody and vicious." The names of the rebels tend to run along the lines of "Bodrod the Bearded and Urg the Unclean," according to Ron (GF31).

As we see, Goblins do not hesitate to stand up for their rights and they do important work for the wizarding society. In fact, the financial centre of Britain is in the hands of Goblins. This makes them very different from house-elves and Centaurs.

They are also extraordinarily skilled when it comes to forging since they made the Weasley's tiara (owned by an aunt). Goblins are renowned silversmiths and most of the Black family silver is made by Goblins. Goblins have their own magic they use to seal and protect the Gringotts vaults. They apparently use dragons to guard Gringotts.

Friendly interaction between wizards and Goblins

Bill Weasley He works for the Goblins in Gringotts. He also seems to be on friendly terms with Ragnok, whom he tries to convince to join the order.

Griselda Marshbanks According to the Daily Prophet, she has connections to 'subversive' Goblin groups. This may mean that she is friendly or sympathetic with their cause. She is also a member of the Wizengamot, one of the examiners during the OWLs, and a good friend of Augusta Longbottom. Marshbanks is loyal to Dumbledore.

Goblins

Ragnok
He is the author of Little People, Big Plans and an activist for Goblin rights. He is interested in cooperating with the Order but has anti-Wizard sentiments caused by life-long discrimination against his people.

Bodrig the Boss-Eyed
He is the spokesgoblin of the Brotherhood of Goblins. According to the HPL the Brotherhood is "a group pressing for goblin rights, including the right to carry and use wands. Members of the B.O.G. were meeting with Ministry representatives in Chipping Sodbury when a small riot broke out. Some goblins apparently got hold of real wands and were transfiguring post boxes and litter bins into wildebeest and marching through the streets chanting B.O.G. slogans." The B.O.G. is only one activist group in the tradition of many organisations fighting for Goblin Rights.

In the second Wombat Test on JKR's site Goblins appeared again:

5. Which (still unresolved) issue do most historians believe triggered the infamous goblin rebellion of 1612?
a. Lack of goblin representation on the Wizengamot?
b. Wizard attempts to enslave goblins and use as house-elves?
c. Wizard refusal to grant goblins the right to carry a wand?
d. Attempt of wizards to regain control of Gringotts bank?
e. Series of brutal goblin-slayings by wizard murderer Yardley Platt [/i]

[i]12. What change would 18% of wizards like to see to the requirements for membership of the Wizengamot? (source: Ministry of Magic poll)
a. Average age lowered from 87
b. Proof of pure-blood status
c. Maximum of three years in post
d. Goblin representation

Study Questions


How would you describe the relationship between wizards and Goblins in general? Will there be a change in the future?
How can the relationship between certain wizards like Bill Weasley, Albus Dumbledore, Cornelius Fudge, Rufus Scrimgeour, Ludo Bagman and Goblins be described?
Do you think that the Goblins chose the right way? Is violence is the only way to improve their situation?
Will there be another Goblin rebellion? Will they use their financial power to gain certain rights?
Will Goblins have a role in DH? Will they choose Voldemort's side?
What would the Wizarding society do if the Goblins closed Gringotts?

An interesting character group to discuss. There has to be something significant about them in DH - there have been so many clues dropped.

How would you describe the relationship between wizards and Goblins in general? Will there be a change in the future?

It seems fairly stable at the moment. There haven't been any real incidents of discord in the books, but there have been more than a few hints in additional items like the Wombats. I don't see a riot or rebellion as described in history of magic.

I definitely see a change being pushed for, but I'm not certain that we will see it ocurring in the books. Rather we might see a realisation that the wizarding world needs to treat other sentient beings with more respect.

How can the relationship between certain wizards like Bill Weasley, Albus Dumbledore, Cornelius Fudge, Rufus Scrimgeour, Ludo Bagman and Goblins be described?

Different for all of them. Bill obviously has a certain respect for them. Fudge has probably made one or two disparaging remarks about them if you believe the Quibbler, but he's the sort of person to do that to anyone when flustered and defensive. Dumbledore probably got on very well with the leaders.

Do you think that the Goblins chose the right way? Is violence is the only way to improve their situation?

We don't know to what extent they tried diplomacy before resorting to violence. It may have been a last resort. Although the typical Goblin attitude is one of confrontation, that doesn't mean a ready recourse to violence.

From what have seen of the Wizarding World I could well believe that violence was the only way to get heard - whether they chose that option as the preferred course of action or the last course.

Will there be another Goblin rebellion? Will they use their financial power to gain certain rights?

The latter seems more likely than the rebellion. They wield considerable power as a result of managing Gringotts, and it's possibly one that they didn't have in previous wars. Possibly it was even the thing they were rebelling to get control of.

Will Goblins have a role in DH? Will they choose Voldemort's side?

Definitely a role, although more likely on an individual scale than as a major fighting force. I doubt they would choose Voldemorts side to be honest. They may be fairly open to siding with whoever offers them the most, but I think they are also more than smart enough to realise that Voldemort exacts a huge price from his supporters. That murdered goblin family mentioned earlier will probably be a deciding factor in favour of the good side.

What would the Wizarding society do if the Goblins closed Gringotts?
Adapt - they'd have to do so. It would cause chaos - more so than when the dementors left Azkaban - because no human seems to know the routes and workings of the inside of Gringotts.

First of all, thanks Madron, for this thread :D

I've reread OotP these days, and I found that the questions in the History of Magic Owl (right before Harry collapses and has the dream about Sirius) are about Goblins again.

The first question was about if the wand restriction was a good thing to bring an end to the Goblin rebellion, and the second mention was about that Goblins wanted to attend the Warlock meeting but were not allowed.
How would you describe the relationship between wizards and Goblins in general?
Not as good as wizards think. I believe that the high amount of Goblin resistance shows that Goblins are a bit tired of the treatment they receive from the side of the wizards.

Will there be a change in the future?
This will depend on the ministries attitude towards them. If they continue on a rather 'Umbridge' line of treatment, then it will become worse.

How can the relationship between certain wizards like Bill Weasley, Albus Dumbledore, Cornelius Fudge, Rufus Scrimgeour, Ludo Bagman and Goblins be described?
Bill Weasley: Seems to be a good relationship, specially since his contact is one of the main activists and intellectuals of the Goblin movement. Unfortunately Bill is only a minority, and now even worse, a part werewolf. And even Bill acknowledges that Ragnoc doesn't seem keen on wizards right now, so it seems that Bills influence on Ragnoc is not that powerful.

Dumbledore: We don't see actual interaction, but from what we know from him I believe that he is sympathetic to the cause. And an interesting quote from Dumbledore from OotP "The fountain we destroyed told a lie. We have mistreated our fellows long enough" (or something similar). The fountain also featured a goblin.
Another interesting thing is that Dumbledore gives a goblin made undestructable Helmet to Hagrid for the Gurg of Giants. He could have bought it normally of course, but it's also possible that they sold it to him because of good relations.

Ludo Bagman: Doesn't take them seriously and relies on the ministry to cover up his rambling depht.

Filius Flitwick: Would be interesting to know how he gets along with them, as he has Goblin ancestors if I'm not mistaken :D


Do you think that the Goblins chose the right way? Is violence is the only way to improve their situation?Well, violence is never a good option. But do they have a choice? The family that got killed in Nottingham by Death EAters, would they have had a chance of surviving if they were allowed to carry wands?
I think that diplomacy is the right way, but it seems that the Ministry is not interested (besides a few individuals) in negotiating with Goblins about their status.


Will there be another Goblin rebellion? Will they use their financial power to gain certain rights?Holding the control of money gives them a much more powerful situation than for example Elves or Centaurs. I don't know what could happen if the activist Goblins convince the others to freeze the money and to blackmail wizards. Could be interesting to see though :p


Will Goblins have a role in DH? Will they choose Voldemort's side?Again, we don't know because this would depend on the ministries attitude. I personally think it's unwise to deny a group of intelligent magical beings, capable of training dragons and create excellent metal objects, as well as controlling the money and with magic of their own, their basic rights.
Another guy might come and offer them something more interesting. That's what Voldemort did with the werewolves, Dementors and with the Giants. If the ministry is not careful, they will have the whole of the magical creature community against them, only because they were to blind to take them seriously.


What would the Wizarding society do if the Goblins closed Gringotts?
Easy. The old wizarding families are broke, the muggle borns are the one with the money (other alternative recources).

And:

RELEASE HODROD THE HORNY HANDED (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/wizards-non.html#hodrod_the_horny-handed)!

Thanks so much for this thread. It's very nice to have all this Goblin-related material assembled in one place.

It seems likely that a lot of wizards would be scared of Goblins, doesn't it? Goblins seem to have powerful magic on their own, of certain kinds that wizards don't generally share. Mining and metal-working may be only one aspect of that. They apparently have wrested control the central bank from wizards. If they had wands, along with everything else, could Goblins turn the tables and become the bosses of the whole magical world? Could wizards find themselves reduced to subjection? If they gained the upper hand, would Goblins be as scrupulous as wizards have been about the secrecy and hands-off-policy regarding Muggles?

These might be questions in many wizard minds, don't you imagine?

It seems likely that a lot of wizards would be scared of Goblins, doesn't it? Goblins seem to have powerful magic on their own, of certain kinds that wizards don't generally share. Mining and metal-working may be only one aspect of that. They apparently have wrested control the central bank from wizards. If they had wands, along with everything else, could Goblins turn the tables and become the bosses of the whole magical world? Could wizards find themselves reduced to subjection? If they gained the upper hand, would Goblins be as scrupulous as wizards have been about the secrecy and hands-off-policy regarding Muggles?

These might be questions in many wizard minds, don't you imagine?
It's a very typical reaction to opress a group of people because of fear of losing power. I'd say that the wizards are afraid, as you say, because they don't want their privileged situation to be endangered. Goblins don't have a representation in the Wizegamot, they are not allowed to carry wands, and according to WOMBAT it's possible that the wizards have tried to take away their control of Gringotts.

But the opression of a whole group such as the goblins, who are intelligent, resourcefull and with own magical abilities can only lead to serious problems. There are already rebellions and organisations, so this shows that the Goblins are not happy with their situation. What can happen if they don't see any support by wizards? (like shown in the Bagman case). It wouldn't look good for the wizards, if the Goblins decided to close Gringotts and make a new rebellion, or worse, join Voldemort.

It's a very typical reaction to opress a group of people because of fear of losing power. ...But the opression of a whole group such as the goblins, who are intelligent, resourcefull and with own magical abilities can only lead to serious problems.

Right, among other things, now the wizards have to worry about the Goblins' lack of trust in wizards and possibly wanting revenge for the past discrimination. No doubt Goblin opinions vary.

Right, among other things, now the wizards have to worry about the Goblins' lack of trust in wizards and possibly wanting revenge for the past discrimination. No doubt Goblin opinions vary.
I don't know if the Goblins' opinion vary, but I think that Goblins are good in adapting to different situations.
I think that Goblins always are against their discrimination, but only some of them chose to actively fight against it (thought supported by the vaste majority).
Goblins seem to be able to make the best of the situation. Allthough they are discriminated, having no wizegamot representation and no wands, they still hold the exclusive power of the wizarding economy. Very smart indeed.

Thanks so much for this thread. It's very nice to have all this Goblin-related material assembled in one place.

It seems likely that a lot of wizards would be scared of Goblins, doesn't it? Goblins seem to have powerful magic on their own, of certain kinds that wizards don't generally share. Mining and metal-working may be only one aspect of that. They apparently have wrested control the central bank from wizards. If they had wands, along with everything else, could Goblins turn the tables and become the bosses of the whole magical world? Could wizards find themselves reduced to subjection? If they gained the upper hand, would Goblins be as scrupulous as wizards have been about the secrecy and hands-off-policy regarding Muggles?

These might be questions in many wizard minds, don't you imagine?

I think that you're right about what wizards think of Goblins. I think there's a lot of similarity here with prejudices against werewolves (that aren't transformed). People don't like them because a) they're scared and b) they're ignorant.

There was also a reference to this continuing tension in OOTP in the Daily Prophet article where the appointment of Umbridge as High Inquisitor was announced. It might hint at some officials' trying to maintain a better relationship, however. (Scholastic hardcover, 308.)

Wizengamot elders Griselda Marchbanks and Tiberius Ogden resigned in protest...(For a full account of Madam Marchbanks' alleged links to subversive goblin groups, turn to page 17.)

There was also a reference to this continuing tension in OOTP in the Daily Prophet article where the appointment of Umbridge as High Inquisitor was announced. It might hint at some officials' trying to maintain a better relationship, however.
I also remember that the Prophet tried to discredit Griselda Marchbank, who supported Dumbledore, by allegating her support to 'subversive goblin groups'. That shows how Goblins and their causes are seen in the society. I'm positive that Umbridge as an official does not help at all to improve the relation with non humans.

Now to the WOMBAT test Grade III (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=106293)

Again we have lots and lots of references to goblins in that part :D


2. Which of the following did NOT provoke one of the bloody goblin rebellions of the 17th and 18th centuries? Choose one.
The allegation by goblin king Ragnuk the First that Godric Gryffindor had stolen his sword.
The pursuit and imprisonment of Ug the Unreliable, who had been peddling Leprechaun Gold.
The accidental death of Nagnok, Gringotts Goblin, at the hands of an untrained security troll sent by the Ministry of Magic.
The imprisonment of the notoriously violent Hogrod the Horny-Handed, who had attempted to kill three wizards.
The public ducking in the village pond, by a gang of young wizards, of goblin activist Urg the Unclean.
The Ministry of Magic Decree of 1631, preventing all magical beings other than wizards carrying a wand.

What does this tell us? That all reasons except of one led to a goblin rebellion. It tells us that the Decree was not well taken. It also seems that there are several Goblin activists. And that Goblins in general dislike if humans interfere with them. That they feel like being treated unfairly, without consideration.
And it tells us also that Goblins don't take offenses easily. They are, like Hermione says, very intelligent and quite capable of defending themselves.

3. Choose the Ministry of Magic decision that, in your estimation, had the MOST DAMAGING effect of the present day wizarding life.
4. In your opinion, which of the same Ministry of Magic decisions have had the BEST effect of the present day wizarding life.
The creation of the International Statute of Wizarding Secrecy in 1692.
The defeat of the Appeal Against House-Elf Slavery in 1973.
The drive into hiding of the surviving giants in the early 1980s.
The 1865 decision to leave full control of Gringotts in goblin hands.
The Wand ban of 1631, which forbade Non-Human Magical Beings to carry a wand.
I would be interested to know how came that the wizards gave full control of Gringotts to the goblins. Doesn't seem like something likely.


I also wondered how a working relation wizard-goblin would be. Bill for example works in Gringotts, so the Goblins (in this case I presumed Ragnok) would be his boss. But in the same time, wizards consider goblins as inferior. Bill though seems to be quite on good terms with them.

I personally think the goblins have the wrong idea with the rebellions. It seems most wizards and witches are already afraid of them. Going into rebellion is just going to wosen their public image. Sure it shows that they have power, and that they can defend themselves, and that if they really wanted to, they could control things, but it just increases people's fear of them, and the more they are feared, the more likely they are to be supressed. But then the more they are supressed, the more likely they will rebell. So unless both goblins and wizards take serious steps to improve relations, I don't think it's going to change at all.

As to whether they would join Voldemort's side, I believe it was said somewhere that the goblins work for themselves. They don't like witches and wizards of any sort, and don't really trust them either. Perhaps that is the reason they control Gringotts, they don't trust anyone else to be in charge of their gold. If this is the case, then they have good reason, what with people like Bagman running around.

I personally think the goblins have the wrong idea with the rebellions. It seems most wizards and witches are already afraid of them. Going into rebellion is just going to wosen their public image.

I think that it is important to remember that the winners write history. Our perceptions of Goblin history and their rebellions are told from the bias of the wizarding world - which is considerable bias. As someone pointed out earlier, we don't know what diplomacy steps were taken before Goblins resorted to violence.

I don't think that the Goblins will pick a side as a whole, but that this war will divide them. I think that this would be a perfect time to bargin with the Ministry for rights before agreeing to help the wizarding community. Hopefully the Ministry will strike a better deal than Voldemort. They are a powerful group and the wizarding world needs all the help they can get.

I think that the relations between the goblins and the majority of the wizards is not good, but I don't know that the wizards are able to perceive it. To them, goblins are beneath them and that is how it is supposed to be and that is how they are supposed to be treated. Wizards probably think that relations are fine and have no idea of the degree that goblins resent the community as a whole.

The goblins do not seem to be respected or appreciated by humans, so since the dont like or trust any humans they won't side with voldemort or the Order. But after DH, the new ministry officials might try to have a better relationship with the Goblins. It will take a long time for some Goblins to eventually have more trust in wizards, but in time the Goblin situation might get better. Then some older Goblins will refuse to get along with wizards since they seem to be stubborn and will always hold the years of decrimination against the humans.

I don't understand why the Goblins run the banking system for the wizards. If they don't like them then why don't they refuse to protect their treasures? The Goblins allow the wizards to opress them and if they don't revolt, then they deserve to be oppressed. It doesn't necessarily have to be violent, but they should be able to figure out something; they seem intelligent enough to devise a way to overpower the wizards, especially if they figure out wand lore.