Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One

This is to discuss Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-connollys01.shtml) by Steve Connolly.

Nice editorial. i have been holding the same opinion about Dumbledore and Snape alliance

I don't know. I don't like the idea of Dumbledore lying at all.

I always thought Snape had been listening with his ear to the door, and he heard the first three lines, at which point Aberforth grabbed him and asked him what he was doing. As Snape came up with his excuses, Trelawny finished the prophecy, and Aberforth opened the door to reveal Snape. Nothing fishy here.. I disagree that Snape knows the full contents of the prophecy, because DD has already said that there are only him and Harry who know the full contents (and once again, I refuse to accept Dumbledore lied.)

Also, I thought this editorial would include some contact with Petunia and Dumbledore before the attack (Remember my last!) but you didn't mention anything there regarding DD's plan, when we know he had corresponded with her earlier.

But otherwise, I agree that Dumbledore had a plan and he confided it only with Snape, who will come in very useful in DH.

Very good, very good! I really like te idea!!!
You mentioned that the book only leaves Harry's perspective in his dream (GoF) and in HBP but of course the Boy Who Lived is seen through the eyes of McGonagle and a narrator.
Eagerly awaiting Part Two!!!

I disagree that Snape knows the full contents of the prophecy, because DD has already said that there are only him and Harry who know the full contents (and once again, I refuse to accept Dumbledore lied.)
but he's doing it to protect one of his most important spys, as Voldy might be listning in at this time. And what makes you think dd can never lie to anyone?

Dumbledore never lies in the entire series, although he makes emotional mistakes. Severus fancied dark arts and this is exactly why James potter hated snape becuase he knew snape will go to the dark side in future. Snape is like regulus black, he just cannot handover his resignation to the voldemort instead he joined order of the phoenix and took the job as a spy. Snape joined the order only after Harry's parents were murdered - there is some other connection here. He did not know the full contents of the prophecy or he would have saved harry's parents according to Dumbledore.

"And Snape was just this little oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts, and James - whatever else he may have appeared to you, Harry -always hated the Dark Arts." - OOTP
"Professor Snape made a terrible mistake. He was still in Lord Voldemort's employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney's prophecy. Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, for it concerned his master most deeply. But he did not know - he had no possible way of knowing - which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onwards, or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew, that they were your mother and father -" - HBP
The reason why Dumbledore trusts snape answers all our doubts. I think 'Irma Pince' = 'I am Prince' - is Elieen prince, Snapes mother.

Rowling once said Snape is not like Voldemort, though Harry disagrees ;).

Top notch job!

Love the idea of a master plan, of course Dumbledore would have a plan! He’d be stupid not to, plus it gives real depth to the books, having something going on beneath the surface that the readers only get the smallest glimpse of.

Concerning Dumbledore telling fibs, we have seen Dumbledore lying before you know – to Umbridge when the DA were caught in OotP. If think given Harry’s feeling towards Snape and the fact the LV keeps bobbing in and out of his head it was very necessary to lie.

I think if we want to know when Dumbledore recruited Snape we have to look at the times in canon that they met before LV met his end, because as you say we have all the pieces of the jigsaw, it is just a matter of putting them all together. The only two times I can think of are at the time the prophecy was given and at the time of the werewolf incident, while Snape was still at school. If we are correct in thinking that Dumbledore already had Snape working for him before that night, then could it be possible that Snape was recruited back in his school days? That would give Dumbledore a chance to teach him Occlumency. We can only speculate as to why Snape would become a spy for Dumbledore before he had even left school, so I am not going to… I’ve got a funny feeling that that might be an unpopular idea, but hey, that’s the kind of girl I am :whistle:

Somewhat disappointing start to this new series.
I agree with Runes, there is a fairly straightforward answer to this problem, namely that Aberforth grabbed Snape before he could listen in. Frankly the author of this essay appears to start with a fundamentally false premise and work towards a totally flawed conclusion.
In which case it's very appropriate to mention Red Hen whose every essay appears to do this.
We must hope that the next essay is an improvement.

Somewhat disappointing start to this new series.
I agree with Runes, there is a fairly straightforward answer to this problem, namely that Aberforth grabbed Snape before he could listen in. Frankly the author of this essay appears to start with a fundamentally false premise and work towards a totally flawed conclusion.
In which case it's very appropriate to mention Red Hen whose every essay appears to do this.
We must hope that the next essay is an improvement.

I really like Red Hen’s essays, she is a lateral thinker and I admire that :)

The way I see it, there has to be more to the Dumbledore/Snape relationship, we know there is because there are so many outstanding questions, and I think book 7 would be really dull if JKR finishes up with ‘yeah, he was evil like I said all along, nothing going on underneath the main plot, completely 2D character, the end, full stop’. That would be RUBBISH!

I don't know. I don't like the idea of Dumbledore lying at all.I agree. This editorial has some poor reasoning behind it. It is trying to make mountains of molehills in order to provide complex scenarios that really cannot naturally arise as explanation in Deathly Hallows, as too many of the principals are dead.

Ultimately, the editorial is looking for a plot[i]-oriented resolution to these issues rather than a [i]charactr-oriented one. However, Harry Potter stories are character-driven: the major plots turn not on events or schemes, but on individual "right but hard" or "easy but wrong" choices.

The biggest lie that would emerge from this is Dumbledore's claim that he thought Snape to be so distraught about endangering one or both of Harry's parents so much that Dumbledore thought that this is why Snape came over to the "right" side. However, this editorical completely omits this incredibly crucial piece of information! Moreover, it offers no indication of why Snape sided with Dumbledore or how Dumbledore secured his loyalties. These would be key parts of Snape's personality and history, and some other side-effects of those reasons should have emerged in the prior 6 books! There has been nothing, however, which means that Rowling would have failed miserably in developing her characters. Remember, when the "why" of Snape finally is bared, it should make us (well, those of us who have not figured it out already) slap our foreheads and say "d'oh!" :cool:

Wait a minute. That can’t be right.There is no major contradiction between what Dumbledore and Trelawney say. Snape could not have been apprehended and ejected from the bar entirely within the time that it took to say the Prophecy. Dumbledore's line is, to some extent, figure of speech: Snape was apprehended listening to the prophecy. He was then thrown from the bar. Dumbledore's line, as a brief summary, simplifies things slightly, but that is what happens in those circumstances. It was not just that the complicating details were more than Harry needed to know, but that at that time it was far more important that Dumbledore cut to the chase.


I always thought Snape had been listening with his ear to the door, and he heard the first three lines, at which point Aberforth grabbed him and asked him what he was doing. As Snape came up with his excuses, Trelawny finished the prophecy, and Aberforth opened the door to reveal Snape. Nothing fishy here...Excellent! A simple, to the point explanation that is consistent with the canon and that then sets up the "why" of Snape to be character driven rather than plot driven.


I disagree that Snape knows the full contents of the prophecy, because DD has already said that there are only him and Harry who know the full contents (and once again, I refuse to accept Dumbledore lied.)I agree: this is much better reasoning.

Also, I thought this editorial would include some contact with Petunia and Dumbledore before the attack (Remember my last!) but you didn't mention anything there regarding DD's plan, when we know he had corresponded with her earlier.Ah, but that probably was about something different. Dumbledore could not foresee what would happen as the outcome was completely unique and utterly improbable. I am sure that Dumbledore did have contingency plans for protecting the Potters, but he could not have guessed that Lily would somehow find a way to reverse an Avada Kedavra, or that she would sacrifice herself in such a way that he (Dumbledore) could later weave a spell from it that would give Harry protection at the Dursleys!

But otherwise, I agree that Dumbledore had a plan and he confided it only with Snape, who will come in very useful in DH.Dumbledore seems to have been aware that Snape had taken the Unbreakable Vow to help Draco, and that Draco was trying to kill him. We would do well to recall the chess game in Stone: sometimes the chessmaster has to sacrifice himself in order to get his pieces to a place where they can strike down the enemy!

Rowling almost always has used character-based explanations for the "why" of Potterverse. Snape stands as her most complicated and intriguing character. If he turns out to be working against Voldemort (even if not truly for Dumbledore), then his reasons for doing so have affected many other things in the series. A simple "welll, I've actually been working for Dumbledore since I was 18" is not going to cut it. If nothing else, then why would anybody believe this from Snape?

Hi there

I really liekd the editorial,I think all the things that DD did that we don't know about is very important and im sure we'll find out more in the last book. A few points though.

1. I too also believed after reading HBP that Snape had heard the entire prophecy but my interpretation is that he was in with voldemort properly by then but maybe the reason why DD trusted Snape so much is that he convinced Snape to only reveal the first part of the prophecy to set a trap, thereby becoming the spy. Maybe he convinced Snape by telling him that the potters were expecting a child near the end of july as DD might have known about Snapes affections towards lily? The lexicon timeline puts the prophecy at being made in jan 1980, 7 months before Harry was born so DD would have known about the baby's due date.

Also i wonder, if DD had decided to lure Voldemort into a trap, why hide the Potters away? I guess i'm going to answer my own question but if they hadn't been hidden, Voldemort might have sensed a trap. Although maybe the potters didn't know about the prophecy and DD had to sacrifice them both in order to create one with the power to conqurer the dark lord?

Dumbledore to Harry in "The Man With Two Faces," Book 1: "I shall answer your questions unless I have a very good reason not to, in which case I beg you'll forgive me. I shall not, of course, lie."

Dumbledore withholds information from his allies or tells the truth in a way that deceives (in "Owl Post Again," PoA: "Well, there you have it, Severus. Unless you are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able to be in two places at once, I'm afraid I don't see any point in troubling them further"), but we never see him lie to them. (Umbridge, of course, is a completely different kettle of nasty.)

I agree that Snape is on Dumbledore's side; it is hard to reconcile this happening around the time of the Prophecy with Dumbledore's statement in HBP ("The Seer Overheard") that he believes Severus returned because Voldemort interpreted the Prophecy in a way that endangered people Snape knew. In "Spinners End" Snape tells Bella that "it was on the Dark Lord's orders that I took up the post [at Hogwarts]" and Bella agrees; he may have been in the Hog's Head on V's orders. Trelawney thinks he was planning on interviewing with Dumbledore that day as well ("Seer Overheard").

As far as the two versions of the Prophecy go, they need not be irreconcilable. Trelawney tells Harry ("Seer Overheard") that Dumbledore did not seem favorable towards divination "and I remember I was starting to feel a little odd, I had not eaten much that day . . . but then we were rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!" She describes seeing him and the "rather uncouth barman" and, after that, "Dumbledore seemed much more disposed to give me a job." Her account and Dumbledore's agree that he was not impressed until after what we recognize as the Prophecy/spy episode. I think that the "oddness" Trelawney said she felt just before seeing Snape was her slipping INTO the trance, not coming out of it. Thus Snape would have heard the beginning of the Prophecy but (depending on how fast the Dumbledores reacted) not the end. She goes into some detail about the men's appearance and action at this moment but says nothing about their leaving--in my opinion, because at that time she was fully in the trance and therefore can't remember it.

there is no other explanation for why Dumbledore would lie to Harry, except to protect Snape’s cover.

What about the way Harry would take the news? Especially given his state at the time. It's not as though Harry would betray Snape's cover in any event - but he wouldn't exactly be confident in Dumbledore if he heard about that little arrangement.

I never considered that Snape could have been a double agent prior to the Hog's Head sequence - it would certainly explain why Dumbledore chose to trust him with such an important mission, though he could also have been playing Monseigneur Bienvenu - but in any event, he was not at the Hog's Head because of the prophecy, which came as a surprise. Voldemort would surely have employed Legilimency for something so major, so Snape must have seen the first part in order to let it slip through his Occlumency screen.

It's worth noting that, depending on the definition of "mark", Voldemort could succeed in killing the Chosen One; I think by that point, Snape hated plenty of people on both sides, and used the opportunity to keep his options open.

This editorial has some poor reasoning behind it. It is trying to make mountains of molehills in order to provide complex scenarios that really cannot naturally arise as explanation in Deathly Hallows, as too many of the principals are dead.

Aberforth.

Dumbledore seems to have been aware that Snape had taken the Unbreakable Vow to help Draco, and that Draco was trying to kill him. We would do well to recall the chess game in Stone: sometimes the chessmaster has to sacrifice himself in order to get his pieces to a place where they can strike down the enemy!

Dumbledore denies to Draco that Snape made the Vow - which only undermines his case, so I get the feeling that he either didn't know or was told it was a feint. His plans seemed to incorporate Draco alone - the Freezing Charm makes perfect sense if Dumbledore was trying to keep Harry from interfering with Draco's persuasion, but not so much if it's to leave him as a witness with the totally wrong impression.

And as the Horcruxes are the key to striking down the enemy, the pieces in question don't look to be in a better position from where I stand.

I too realized there were discrepancies in the story that Sybil told and the one Dumbledore recounted. I also thought then it must have been the second half of the prophecy that Severus heard.

"...he will have power the dark lord knows not and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives; the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord will be born as the seventh month dies...."

We see the part about marking him as his equal is not in the second half. It is just before the second part. So there is definitely something wrong about the story that Harry has been given. Either Sybil got the story second-hand and tells it as though she witnessed it or Dumbledore is telling it differently than the real way it happened. It probably has to do with Snape's cover and Dumbledore's duplicity. The truth will be revealed in the seventh book!

I have had the same theory since reading HBP... and I always thought there was a LOT more the the words "my plan" that are said often by DD then strictly keeping Harry safe. You editorial put what I have been thinking in a very coherant prose. I think if DD is behind everything that has happened (at least to a degree) it explains SO MANY THINGS!!!!!!!! Not the least of which is his words while drinking the potion in the cave.

A well written editorial if nothing else. But what makes it so hard to believe Snape only heard the beginning of the prophecy?

Could Snape have followed Dumbledore into the Hogs Head and up the stairs. Crouching outside the door he heard:
'The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...'

At this stage Aberforth Dumbledore walks up the stairs and sees him. He grabs him and tousels him about while in the room Trelawnley is prophecising:
'and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have a power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives... the one with the power to defeat the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...'

Aberforth barges into the room, Sybill wakes up, Albus is startled. Snape starts making excuses. Dumbledores glare. Snape ejected.

Do Mugglenet editorial writers ever check up here?

~TheInvisibleFiend~

To me there is nothing in this editorial that I haven't discussed somewhere before.
The discrepancy in Dumbledores and Trelawneys account of what happened during the prophecy has been discussed - there are the following possibilities.
1. Snape lies
2. Dumbledore lies
3. It happened as Dumbledore said - and I agree with Runes. It doesn't take at all long to speak these few lines of the prophecy and to come round. Enough time for Aberforth and Snape to have a lengthy altercation - and Snape wouldn't have heard a thing with Aberforth shouting down his neck.

But Dumbledore - although not directly lying - is economical with the truth where Snape is concerned. During HBP you get the impression that Snape is very important to Dumbledore; there is a snide remark by Phineas Nigellus, Snape now DADA teacher, healing Dumbledore's hand (?), healing Katie Bell.
Dumbledore defending Snape - but never fully justifying his trust in Snape in front of Harry. Dumbledore fobs Harry off with a cover story for Snape's trust that nobody can believe.

I am convinced that Snape; not Harry - has been told as much if not more about Voldemort's Horcruxes as Dumbledore knows. Harry may be the one to vanquish the Dark Lord, let's take that for granted; but will he therefore be the one to 'vanquish' all these protective spells around his Horcruxes. Frankly, I doubt it. He really hasn't got the 'ability or the nerve'.
Dumbledore assigned that task to Snape. And I'm sure he hoped to get Snape and Harry to collaborate. Except they hate each other. And as long as they hate each other as much as they do, telling Harry is unsafe. There is a risk that Snape's cover would be blown. Also that of Voldemort invading Harrys mind. I agree here. Dumbledore died too early, and he didn't even have time to tell Snape that Harry had heard from Trelawney that it was Snape who heard the prophecy.

So Dumbledore feels guilty for not killing Tom Riddle as an eleven year old.
I'm not sure I buy that.
There is a suggestion of guilt in something he says while forced to drink the potion. If that potion acts on the mind to enhance own feelings then there probably is something.
In the life of a 150 year old wizard it could have been anything. I always thought it related to something Dumbledore went through during the Grindelwald wars. Something that made him rethink and offer second chances to others.
Even Tom Riddle.

So Dumbledore told Snape half the prophecy as a lure for Voldemort?
Do I understand that right?
I don't believe that.
Dumbledore doesn't set much store in prophecies as such. He knows that prophecies mean nothing if nobody acts on them.
It doesn't look like Dumbledore to use a baby as a bait to lure Voldemort, to get Snape in the inner circle.

RE: "Dumbledore wouldn't lie.

Dumbledore is running a war. Winston Churchill, who also ran a war, said that "In war, Truth is so precious that she must always be accompanied by a bodyguard of lies." JKR doesn't flinch from the fact that war means killing. She would hardly flinch from the fact that it also means lying.

And Dumbledore is fighting an enemy who can read minds. (Yes, yes, Professor Snape, "perform legillemancy.") There is information that he simply cannot give to anyone who is not an expert Occlumens. That would include any information that would expose Snape's role as a double agent. Dumbledore is honest, but honesty is not a suicide pact.

I am convinced that Snape; not Harry - has been told as much if not more about Voldemort's Horcruxes as Dumbledore knows. Harry may be the one to vanquish the Dark Lord, let's take that for granted; but will he therefore be the one to 'vanquish' all these protective spells around his Horcruxes. Frankly, I doubt it. He really hasn't got the 'ability or the nerve'.

So destroying a Horcrux is tantamount to casting an Unforgivable? I doubt it.

In any case, Snape wouldn't know any more about the Horcruxes than Dumbledore does - Voldemort is pretty cagey with those things, you know. And if he knew as much as Harry and was expected to destroy the Horcruxes, why didn't he accompany Dumbledore to the lake instead?

Dumbledore assigned that task to Snape. And I'm sure he hoped to get Snape and Harry to collaborate. Except they hate each other. And as long as they hate each other as much as they do, telling Harry is unsafe. There is a risk that Snape's cover would be blown. Also that of Voldemort invading Harrys mind. I agree here. Dumbledore died too early, and he didn't even have time to tell Snape that Harry had heard from Trelawney that it was Snape who heard the prophecy.

Because witnessing him killing Dumbledore isn't enough to inspire unconditional hatred.

So Dumbledore feels guilty for not killing Tom Riddle as an eleven year old.
I'm not sure I buy that.

I'm pretty sure he feels guilty for what he did to Lily and James.

So Dumbledore told Snape half the prophecy as a lure for Voldemort?
Do I understand that right?
I don't believe that.
Dumbledore doesn't set much store in prophecies as such. He knows that prophecies mean nothing if nobody acts on them.
It doesn't look like Dumbledore to use a baby as a bait to lure Voldemort, to get Snape in the inner circle.

Snape being in the inner circle is pretty secondary at this point, at least to Dumbledore - luring Voldemort is, intellectually, the most bloodless way to end the war.

Snape ending up in both inner circles is, I'll warrant, far more important to Snape, but even so, he doesn't feel like he's got much gratitude from either since.

I always thought Snape had been listening with his ear to the door, and he heard the first three lines, at which point Aberforth grabbed him and asked him what he was doing. As Snape came up with his excuses, Trelawny finished the prophecy, and Aberforth opened the door to reveal Snape. Nothing fishy here..

Yes, I also think to be much more likely that Alberforth got Snape before Trewlaney finished and then they quarreled several minutes until Trelawney finished the prophecy (Albus did not meddle in the quarrel because he was listening to Trelawney).

In any case, I do not think Dumbledore would set Voldemort on Lily and James on purpose.

Thark--what definition of "mark" means that Voldemort could kill the Chosen One (which, of course, we already know he can do because of "either must die at the hand of the other"). The only other mark I can think of is the Dark Mark, and Voldemort would be quick to say that THAT does not mark those who bear it as his equals.

You said "Dumbledore denies to Draco that Snape made the Vow" but I'm not sure where. In "The Lightning Struck Tower" Draco says, "He hasn't been doing your orders, he promised my mother--" and Dumbledore responds "Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco, but--" Is Dumbledore contradicting "he promised my mother" or the statement that Snape "isn't doing your orders"? I think it's the second. I'm sure Dumbledore knows about the Vow; IMHO that's one of the reasons why he dies.

Cenzonico, in "The Lost Prophecy" in OotP Dumbledore says the spy "heard only the first part, the part foretelling the birth of a boy in July to parents who had thrice defied VOldemort. Consequently, he could not warn his master that to attack you would be to risk transferring power to you--again marking you as his equal." So he's defining "the first part as only the first two sentences.

I doubt that Dumbledore thinks he should have killed 11-year-old Riddle. I think it more likely that he thinks he should have been able to help Tom while he was at Hogwarts, to make him see the danger of the path he was on (well, it was either that or "the Dark Side") and decide on goals that were less violent.

Excellent editorial. I too had noticed the seeming discrepiancies in the two accounts of the prophecy. My interpretation was that Snape did hear the whole thing, but only told LV half, not because Dumbledore told him too, but on his own, and that was why Dumbledore trusted Snape.

In any case, I do not think Dumbledore would set Voldemort on Lily and James on purpose.

I agree. I had always figured that Dumbledore sent them into hiding soon after the prophecy was foretold. LV didn't attack for so long because he couldn't find them.

I would also like to point out that Dumbledore states in GOF that Snape turned spy "prior to Lord Voldemort's downfall, at great personal risk", meaning well before he attacked Lily and James. To be at "great personal risk" would imply that it couldn't have been right before James and Lily were attacked that Snape switched sides. It would have had to have been long enough for LV to have actually got on to Snape's wavering allegiance should something have gone wrong. At the end of HBP, Harry and the order think Dumbledore trusted Snape because he fed DD a sob story of remorse after James and Lily died.

As for Dumbledore lying, when he told Harry that he would not lie, Harry was not in danger of being possessed by a deranged dark wizard. When Dumbledore told Harry about the prophecy, he had just been posessed by LV and had spent most of the year having his mind invaded by him. Dumbledore wouldn't even make eye contact with Harry because he was afraid of what LV would do through Harry. If he had any thought that LV might be able to access this information from Harry's mind later, he wouldn't tell Harry such valuable information that would blow his spy's cover.

And although he said that LV had been in so much pain while possessing Harry, Dumbledore had no way of knowing whether or not LV would try again. It clearly didn't hurt LV to send Harry the dreams about corridors or such, it is possible that he could access Harry's mind without fully possessing him in order to find out about Snape.

I agree with those above who posit that Snape did hear the first part of the prophecy, but was interrupted from *hearing* the rest by Aberforth while Sybill completed the telling of it to Dumbledore.

At the same time, I think that Albus *does* know that Snape has gone over to the Dark Lord and *Knows* that Snape is going off to relay the part of the prophecy he did overhear to LV. I also think that Albus, in the moment of *catching* Snape in the act, takes advantage of the moment to suggest to Snape that he should do so -- with Albus' blessing. Because, as someone rightly suggested: this is a story of character and motivation.

Albus *knows* Severus very well. I suggest in my fic Trust & Betrayal, that Albus taught Occulmency and Legilimency to Severus as compensation for holding Lupin's secret after the Prank in 5th year. While he tried - but failed to prevent Snape from going over to Voldemort, I think Dumbledore knows Snape well enough to guess that there would come a time that Severus might need a *way out*, so he has set up a path that, when Severus is ready, will lead him back to Dumbledore. When he does, Albus is ready to take him back in the role that will aid his *plan* to the greatest advantage: for Snape to take on the role of the double spy.

I agree that Dumbledore does not *lie* in the larger sense of the word. But he is a General -- and uses all the resources at his disposal for the "greater good". He has used Severus for years, just in the same way he uses Harry. They all have their roles to play. Dumbledore just enables them to play it.

This is borderline brilliant. I love this editorial.

I don't think Dumbledore would lie to Harry, he might withhold information, but not flat out lie. I agree with Runes that Snape could have heard the first part of the prophecy and then been aprehended by Aberforth, that's the way I have always imagined it happening.
Sriharish, Dumbledore states in GoF that Snape turned spy for him before Lord Voldemort's downfall (the night the Potters died).

I can't agree with the assertion that Snape heard the last part of the prophecy and not the first. Trelawney indicates that when Snape "interupted", the "uncouth barman" (Aberforth) had forced Snape into the Room. What happened was Snape was outside the door, eavesdropping, the prophecy starts, Snape heres about a boy who will be born in july who could vanquish the dark lord-- and a hand is on his shoulder, or perhaps a wand on his back and Aberforth says something like "It looks like the spiders got himself a fly!" or merely "What the hell are you up to?" Just this action of being caught and having a question thrown at him distracts Snape from the rest of the prophecy. Then Aberforth brings the situation to Dumbledores attention seconds after the prophecy ends and Snape is thrown out. It would complicate things too much to have the fact that the critical information in the prophecy is only known by Dumbledore and Harry suddenly altered to include Snape. There is no evidence whatsoever that Snape was already a spy. Dumbledore said at that time he wasnt. It messes things up too much and makes it needlessly complicated. It is also much better for Snape's character if there is the need for redemption. Dumbledore didnt tell Harry the details of what made Snape turn, but Harry assumed it occured after Godrics Hollow while we have evidence from Dumbledores statements in GoF, the implied statement in HBP and Fudge's reference to a useful spy that tipped Dumbledore off about the danger to the Potters that indicates that Snape turned to the good side and gained Dumbledore's trust after the prophecy was made, after Snape confided what he knew to Voldemort, but BEFORE Godrics Hollow.

To say that Dumbledore sent Snape off to tell Voldemort even the incomplete prophecy would be to make a claim about Dumbledore that cant be backed up at all. Dumbledore doesnt put much store in the prophecy. If he had control of the information, that is to say only people loyal to him knowing about the prophecy, him and Snape, is it logical that the sage of Hogwarts castle, the protector of the innocent and good would put an infant not yet born into harms way? Absolutely not! Thats not Dumbledore. If Dumbledore had heard the prophecy alone he would have simply ignored it. If this were true it would put James and Lily's deaths on Dumbledore's shoulders. It would be a deed contradicting everything Dumbledore stands for.

Granted, Dumbledore has shown flaws, but he has never shown a frankly evil disregard for innocent life and letting the prophecy "leak" to Voldemort would be at or worse than most of the stuff Matt Damon's character did in "The Departed"! Dumbledore knows how smart Voldemort is. He knows he would find ways around any precautions made to protect the Longbottoms and Potters. No protection would be invincible when Voldemort thought his path to immortality led through one of the boys. Dumbledore would never risk making the prophecy come true. It would be just appaling.

Thark--what definition of "mark" means that Voldemort could kill the Chosen One (which, of course, we already know he can do because of "either must die at the hand of the other"). The only other mark I can think of is the Dark Mark, and Voldemort would be quick to say that THAT does not mark those who bear it as his equals.

"Mark" as in "mark my words".

You said "Dumbledore denies to Draco that Snape made the Vow" but I'm not sure where. In "The Lightning Struck Tower" Draco says, "He hasn't been doing your orders, he promised my mother--" and Dumbledore responds "Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco, but--" Is Dumbledore contradicting "he promised my mother" or the statement that Snape "isn't doing your orders"? I think it's the second. I'm sure Dumbledore knows about the Vow; IMHO that's one of the reasons why he dies.

I don't have the book on hand to contradict you, but whatever; the Lightning-Tower Pact still makes no kind of sense.

wow.... talking about making a leap of faith...

Your analysis of the night in the Hogs Head assumes way to much, and then you go on to treat those assumptions as fact to invent a wild mosaic of what you think to be an implied sub plot that really doesn't exist.

Trelawney has no awareness of her surroundings while prophesizing, so if she was conscious and alert when she saw Snape, it means she had already completed the prophecy.

probably true.... so?


In turn, this means if Snape heard any of the prophecy, it was the last part, not the first part. According to Dumbledore, Snape heard the first part and was kicked out before he could hear the rest. However, there is NO way Snape could have been ejected, but then still been there after the prophecy so that Trelawney could see him standing in the doorway.

Now this is where you are really stretching it.

Imagine you are Snape.... You are listening at the keyhole... You start hearing the start of the prophecy.. when all of a sudden you are grabbed from behind and start scuffling with the inkeeper... he wrenches you away from the keyhole... he's yelling at you for eaves dropping..... your struggling.. he's got your wand arm behind your back....

... now did you hear.... or not hear the end of the prohecy?????

at no point does Trelawny say that Snape entered the room! you have invented this!!!!

It could be that dumbledoor heard the commotion but (being familar with prophecies) waited till Trelawny had finished before rising to open the door to see what the commotion was...

imagine at this point Albeforth brings Snape into the room with his arm in a half nelson... snape not wanting to offend dumbledoor, makes up some excuse about "coming the wrong way up the stairs"

Dumbledoor (an acomplished occlumens) knows snape is a liar and given the weight of what he has just heard and the quickness of it, has no chance to prevent dumbledoor penetrating his mind and seeing what has just happend outside the door....

see... I can invent wildly too...... If you are going to do it.....at least make it plausible....like Dumbledoor put a memory charm on snape to make him forget the last part or something....

While I am curious to see the Editorialist's view of Dumbledore's "Plan", I too find the first installment disappointing. I'd like to focus on a point the other posters have not really touched upon.

1). Dumbledore is very definite in laying out his theory of Divination. It doesn't have to come true, it has no compulsive power, and the only reason any of it has come true is because Voldemort chose to believe it and acted upon it, and continues to do so. Harry is not obliged to follow it.

2). "Mark him as an equal" is a classic example of how fake psycics interpret any and everything after the fact to have been predicted. Before the attack, Dumbledore would only interpret it literally, that in trying to kill someone he actually fears mght defeat him, Voldemort is treating him, identifying him, as a real threat, as an equal. The idea that an attack by Voldemort would actually mark him, and give him the power referred to in the final part of the prophacy, is a re-interpretation completely after the fact.

Yet for Dumbledore's plan to be what the editorial claims, Dumbledore must both believe it will come true, and that someone will only rise to equal Voldemort if he marks him as his equal, but also that this is the sort of thing that Voldemort could not resist. If he did not believe it would come true, how would it help him defeat Voldemort? Is there anything in the prophacy which actually connects the powers to the marking? Is there any place where we have seen that Voldemort has been especially enamoured of prophacy and Divination, before this one caused him so much trouble? Did Dumbledore really think that Voldemort was such a sucker for prophacy that he would evolve a plan putting people at risk on the chance that Voldemort would feel threatened? If he really believed the Prophacy, would he put the chosen one in danger like that?

I think the apparent beliefs of the characters which would need to be revised and added for this explanation to fly in book 7 are too numerous. But I will look forward to the next installment.

Is everyone here sure it was Snape that heard part of the prophecy?

I for one had a WHAT?!?!?! moment when Sybil told her version.

My initial reaction was.. "maybe Snape is not the traitor, maybe there is someone else." But I can't figure out who it might be. Could it be possible that Snape was already in league with Dumbledore and he was the one who caught the spy? Then he burst in to tell Dumbledore with Aberforth close behind and this is what Sybil remembers? Or he responded to the call of Aberforth for assistance when the spy was caught.

As for Dumbledore lying, he doesn't. Even with Umbridge and Fudge. He "leads" the conversation with half finished sentences and hints to the point where others interpret the information how they want and Dumbledore neither admits or denies anything. He just uses smoke and mirrors type answers. Dumbledore is notorious for vague answers and answering with questions.

I also agree that there is much more in the wizarding world going on outside Harry's perspective. I think we've had subtle hints through comments overheard or passed through the rumor mill in previous books that will congeal to the "I can't beleive I didn't see that" moments in DH.

the main idea behind this editorial--Snape having heard the whole prophecy but in loyalty to Dumbledore gave only half of it to Voldy as a trap--is exactly the same as that of the North Tower #41 (I'm not sure abuot the exact number, but I'm pretty sure it was 41)

I think Snape is the chosen one. They understood it this very night, and they decided to put Voldemort on Harry's track, but they didn't imagine Lily would countercurse Voldemort.
They wanted to get rid of the Potters, as noone liked them (except Hagrid who always loved monsters) and they were always doing crazy and useless things.

We'll have to see how this editorial goes on.
So far it has only put up very untenable statements.

I don't think Dumbledore lied to Harry when he told him how the prophecy was overheard.
I don't think Dumbledore outrightly lies, he is too clever for that. But he uses the information he gives in a very manipulative way, either he withholds parts of it or he phrases it in a suggestive way so that it leads to being misunderstood.

Why doesn't the editorial stress the fact that Dumbledore never told Harry who overheard the prophecy?
Harry finds out by mistake - and Dumbledore's reaction, when Harry confronts him with the knowledge - is much more interesting.
Dumbledore is silent, Harry thinks he is very pale.

That scene in HBP has made me think much more about the relationship between Dumbledore and Harry and Dumbledore and Snape.

Why is Dumbledore silent?
I think he doesn't know how to react.
He didn't want Harry to find out who told Voldemort the prophecy?
Why not tell him?
After all, during that scene in OOTP he had just realised the dangers of keeping valuable information from Harry?

In HBP we have Dumbledore - knowing that his life is coming to an end. He forms a close, fairly exclusive relationship with Harry; passing all the knowledge on, he has.
We do not know what happened between Dumbledore and Snape; any mention of Snape is seen through Harrys cloud of hatred. But in the entire book there are some hints that Dumbledore and Snape could have had a similar close relationship: a snide remark from Phineas Nigellus, the scene Hagrid overheard; several hints that remind us that Snape's strength is DADA - and lastly Dumbledore's desperate insistance that Harry get Snape to him, after he has been poisoned (could have been a pure medical reason, but I wonder).
My theory is that Dumbledore had an equally close relationship. Snape is the only one knowledgable about DADA that Dumbledore has.

The question remains, why didn't Dumbledore bring these two together? He almost kept them apart on purpose - why?

I really liked this editorial, it has some really good ideas. I like the idea that snape was on Dumbledore's side before giving the prophecy to Voldemort. But I can't beleive that Dumbledore would sacrifice the Potter's or the Longbottom's even if he thought it would be for the greater good.

Perhaps, going left field here, Snape was only supposed to tell Voldemrot that a prophecy had been made but he was not sufficent enough yet to perform occlumency against Voldemort and that is his greatest regret...

Thanks, cdmHPfan - My first thought (since I can't find the book to check on it) was "Are we sure that Snape is the death eater in question?". I don't remember him being identified by name. I'm glad you brought it up, too!

great editorial,

I have read all the previous comments and despite the possible holes some have found I think your theory raised some great questions and got us all thinking - you definitely have me questioning what I have read (I know I'll be rereading the books)

looking forward to reading more

Good editorial.

Harry Potter truly has a right to be upset at Dumbledore. Dumbledore was playing a huge chess match with real people's lives, especially Harry's life. Dumbledore was the only person who understood the real threat of Riddle/Voldermort, and was forced to make some sacrifices for the greater good. It is sometimes more unfortunate what we have to become to stop our enemies than what our enemies are capable of doing alone.

I agree with Runes and Wimsey. Dumbledore didn't actually "lie" for Harry and Sirius in book 3. Yes, he did purposefully mislead those listening, which could technically count as lying, but my point is that he did not give out erroneous information. He said to Snape, "unless you are suggesting that Harry and Hermione can be at two places at once, I see no point in bothering them further." Well, Harry and Hermione were in two places at once, but of course, Dumbledore's way of presenting that would make it seem a silly suggestion. However, taken at face value, Dumbledore did not lie. In terms of his explanation of "propecy night" it's very easy to say that "the eavesdropper was detected partway through the prophecy and [eventually] ejected from the building." ;) Let's not forget the scuffling outside the door and have we not seen the spell "muffliato"? We know there are ways to prevent things from being heard. Aberforth is a wizard, after all and we've purposefully been kept in the dark about him until 7. Besides that, as others have pointed out, Dumbledore reiterated to Harry that only he and Harry knew the full contents of the prophecy. And Dumbledore lying by giving false information (rather than spinning the truth with his tone and other non-verbal means) completely undermines his character and integrity. Can you imagine? We find out Dumbledore is this calculating general who used Harry as an unwilling pawn, playing on his emotions to get close to him all the while lying to him in a huge way to make sure Voldemort was defeated. We'd discount everything Dumbledore ever said and that won't do. Because, Dumbledore wouldn't have just lied about Snape. He would have lied again when he told Harry at the end of 'Phoenix' that he was going to tell Harry the truth, which he reiterated in book 6 when Harry questioned him about the new information he was getting. "I thought you said you were going to tell me the truth, sir," was Harry's response to which Dumbledore asserted that he had. We know he left Snape's identity out of the picture, but, to be fair, Harry never asked him pointedly about that and Dumbledore steered the conversation away from that. Again, this is different than giving false information and shows Dumbledore to be clever but also protective and caring. All of that care and protection would fly out the window if we hear that Dumbledore told Harry a bold-faced lie.

Plus, I'm not sure Dumbledore really set a bunch of stock by the prophecy. I think Dumbledore made the choices he did after finding out that Voldemort was told part of it. I believe Dumbledore knows that, if Voldemort had never heard the prophecy, then none of it would come true. He rants this to us quite clearly in book 6, I believe; and it is here that we hear Jo's thoughts on the matter. The prophecy isn't a big issue; choices are. Harry should not waste time trying to make his life fit into the prophecy or feeling like he's a robot pre-programmed for one thing. Harry's situation is what it is based on the choices of those around him before he was even born and continuing to the present day. Now, based on that, Harry also has choices, though they may be more limited than his peers. All this isn't to say that I don't think Dumbledore has strategies, but I do not see him putting Snape and the unknown couple and child (and possible siblings) at risk when he went overboard to allow young Tom Riddle to choose his own path. While he may have felt he made mistakes about that, I doubt Dumbledore would say that he regrets giving Tom a choice at all.

Also, just a minor thing - the first chapter of PS/SS was not in Harry's point of view either. Not that I think it would change anything, but just because I tend to be a perfectionist... :blush:

That was excellant! Keep Writing!
Cheers

Good editorial, but I disagree with the following quote:

Either Snape was already in the Hog’s Head that night, or Dumbledore quickly summoned him, and he apparated into bar before Trelawney came out of her trance.

Uh-uh. I think that's a bit too far-fetched. It just doesn't seem as if there would be enough time, or as if the timing would be so coincidental. I believe that Snape was working for Voldemort, heard the whole prophecy, but then Dumbledore somehow got Snape to join his side--and thus they developed the plan of only telling part of the prophecy, as the rest of your editorial details.

I think everyone is forgetting one crucial point: Dumbledore would personally sick Voldemort on an unsuspecting child? Right....

I think everyone is forgetting one crucial point: Dumbledore would personally sick Voldemort on an unsuspecting child? Right....

:lol: Well, I DID mention that. I'm glad someone else mentioned it.

Your premise that Dumbledore deliberately told Voldemort about a prophecy that would put a whole family in danger just isnt true to Dumbledore's character. He would not be able to control the consequences. Why create a problem that could only be solved by a family going into hiding in perpetuity? And putting a baby at risk? And relying on the parents being exceptional wizards? No, couldnt be. You've made some interesting observations but your premise wont hold enough water to carry seven editorials.

When I first read the editorial, I thought it had some merit - something to think about and all. But, now after reading the other commentaries, I am of the notion that DD would not purposely put a young family's lives in danger. I also agree that the timing at the time of the prophesy is off. The prophesy took all of 2-4 minutes from start to finish - not enough time to summon anyone. I am interested to see where your line of thinking takes us.

Your premise that Dumbledore deliberately told Voldemort about a prophecy that would put a whole family in danger just isnt true to Dumbledore's character. He would not be able to control the consequences. Why create a problem that could only be solved by a family going into hiding in perpetuity? And putting a baby at risk? And relying on the parents being exceptional wizards? No, couldnt be. You've made some interesting observations but your premise wont hold enough water to carry seven editorials.

He doesn't need to rely on the parents being exceptional wizards. He knows they are. All four of them have thrice defied Voldemort, if you'll remember. And Dumbledore was quite aware of the "power the Dark Lord knows not" back when the Death Eaters were mere rumor to most wizards. He ferevently believes that is the key to his defeat.

You're forgetting that this is the height of the war. Voldemort's potential victims are hardly nameless and faceless - Dumbledore sees them at every meeting, and every time he walks the Hogwarts corridors. No, minimizing bloodshed was by far the more attractive option in those dark times.

From Thark: He doesn't need to rely on the parents being exceptional wizards. He knows they are. All four of them have thrice defied Voldemort, if you'll remember. And Dumbledore was quite aware of the "power the Dark Lord knows not" back when the Death Eaters were mere rumor to most wizards. He ferevently believes that is the key to his defeat.

You're forgetting that this is the height of the war. Voldemort's potential victims are hardly nameless and faceless - Dumbledore sees them at every meeting, and every time he walks the Hogwarts corridors. No, minimizing bloodshed was by far the more attractive option in those dark times.
The editorial, as I read it, said that from the minute Dumbledore heard the prophecy he allowed Snape to tell Voldemort. According to the editorial, Dumbledore did not know at that time who the parents were, and started trying to figure it out himself. Actually, if we want to come back to reality, Jo has already told us that VOLDEMORT himself chose the child who was to become his nemesis, so I think this is a dead line of reasoning. Again, my feeling is that Dumbledore would not have deliberately set Voldemort off to find the child who could be his undoing, and this whole editorial falls apart on that alone. And if this were not enough, the whole line of thought about the fact that Snape is the one who actually did tell Volemort about the prophecy (which is why Dumbledore withheld that info from Harry), Dumbledore trusting Snape because of his real remorse over causing Lily's death, and the fact that Voldemort made the mistake of seeking out the child, because he only heard half of the prophecy--all of this would also be voided if this editorial is right.
Oh, and also, just because you have thrice defied the dark lord doesnt mean you can do it four times. You shouldnt bet a baby's life on it.

I dont agree with this editorial exactly. Although good speculation, I think that the author took something simple and complicated it.

the whole line of thought about the fact that Snape is the one who actually did tell Volemort about the prophecy (which is why Dumbledore withheld that info from Harry), Dumbledore trusting Snape because of his real remorse over causing Lily's death, and the fact that Voldemort made the mistake of seeking out the child, because he only heard half of the prophecy--all of this would also be voided if this editorial is right.

How d'you figure? I mean, if we're taking away the assertion that Dumbledore summoned Snape there midway through - which is ludicrous, but unessential to the basic argument - Snape was still the one who told Voldemort, Voldemort still made the mistake of trying to subvert fate, and Snape's remorse, considering his attitude toward Lily, is a pathetic foundation for trust and I hope that's not it. Especially considering how little sense the Clinger theory makes.

Thark wrote
How d'you figure? I mean, if we're taking away the assertion that Dumbledore summoned Snape there midway through - which is ludicrous, but unessential to the basic argument - Snape was still the one who told Voldemort, Voldemort still made the mistake of trying to subvert fate, and Snape's remorse, considering his attitude toward Lily, is a pathetic foundation for trust and I hope that's not it. Especially considering how little sense the Clinger theory makes.

Ah but the difference is that our original idea was that these things happened without Dumbledore interceding and ithis editorial proposes that they are part of Dumbledore's plan and he had a role to play in making them come about.
In addition, if Snape only heard the last part of the prophecy, why was that he would then tell Voldemort only the first part, etc, too confusing and convaluted. One thing we do agree upon is that summoning Snape part is ludicrous. And also, if this theory is true, it puts the "barman" (Albeforth)out of the picture and I think he might be an important part of the story.

Actually, Snape heard the whole prophecy, not just the last part. He'd need to have that in his head to withstand Voldemort's inevitable Legilimency. Why would it put Aberforth out of the picture? Just for starters, he'd be the one to let Harry know what had happened.

I don't see why Dumbledore's role changes the basic truth of those two events.

Snape heard part of the prophecy, and it was the first part. Just as has been asserted in the books. There is no reason to alter this. Its true that we havent heard all of Snape story. But it doesnt mean that the whole story is somehow embeded in the books for us to discover. There are parts of the story that simply are not there yet. They are gaps that only JKR can fill.

We know that basically Dumbledore formulated a "plan" early on or so he claimed in OotP. But he never said it happened right when he heard the prophecy. In fact, its implied that Dumbledore started his "brilliant plan" after Godrics Hollow when he had to arrange for Harry's future.

Sure, Dumbledore had been working to destroy Voldemort from the beggining, but in war the complicated schemes hardly ever work. There was never any reason to come up with such a crazy plan around a prophecy that would completely dominate a person's existance even before they were born. Its just not Dumbledore.

It looks to me like, by the time the door swung open, Aberforth had just started with Snape. You don't have an intonation-drowning shouting match, then waffle. It just doesn't tally.

while I like the idea about Snape and Dumbledore having an alliance, I think the speculation you have made about the discrepancy regarding the hearing of the prophecy, is simply nitpicking.

it is entirely possible that the "commotion" outside the door was still going on while the prophecy was being made... so that ST would have been able to make the full prophecy while Snape was being "ejected" preventing him from hearing the entire prophecy

there's nothing here i haven't heard before. but i will say well done to the author most people cannot bear to think of dumbledore as anything else other than kind granfather. so much so when anyone dares suggest the man would do something they go off their heads.

dumbledore is 150 years old it is safe to say he outlived and watched alot of people he loves die. jk once described him as lonely because he has no equal.
when we meet dumbledore for first time he says voldemort had powers i will never have. we all know what MCg Replys.
is it so hard for people to accept dumbledore was being honest instead of modest??
the man has suffered through wars voldemort is steadily climing the power ladder with no way of stopping him.
then comes the prophecy a chance to make a chosen one to get rid of voldemort. would dumbledore take the risk?? for the good of the world
yes i believe he would, he believed he could protect the families.
but peter put the first spanner in his plans.

harry has never been safe at hogwarts see ps/ss cos gof hbp
dumbledore has manipulated

it is quite clear from the book she makes the prophecy then they are interupted by snape.
what snape heard for sure only jk knows. however dumbledore did not tell harry the whole truth.

Great theory, it explains a lot.

I did have a doubt about Wormtail: Snape could have known he was a Death Eater if he was on Dumbledore's side at that point, but then I remembered Karkaroff's betrayal: he told the Wizengamot that the Death Eater's didn't all know each other. This seemed like a rather pointless claim: he could have named the lot of them and JKR could have wormed her way out of it, maybe this was why: Snape was loyal to Dumbledore but didn't know Wormtail's true allegiance.

Maline of "The NorthTower" wrote an editorial fairly similar to this shortly after the release of HPB. As I recall, she too got a lot of criticism in the forums for suggesting that Dubledore has lied to Harry about Snape hearing the entire prophesy. However much as I hate to think of Dubledore telling Harry such direct lies, (*"Snape only heard half the prophesy," and *"We are the only two people in the world who know the entire prophesy") it seems to me that there are holes in Trelawney's recollection of the night and Dumbledore's explanation that are too big to ignore.

*Not exact quotes I'm sure but that's the gist of them.

In Chapter 37 of Order of the Phoenix, entitled The Lost Prophecy, Albus Dumbledore speaks of a plan. A “brilliant” and “wonderful” plan that he hatched before Harry Potter was ever born, and a plan upon which the safety of the entire Wizarding World may very well rest.

Bold mine- let's see what canon says. When was this plan actually made?

"Five years ago you arrived at Hogwarts, Harry, safe and whole, as I had planned and intended.

*snip*

Voldemort had been vanquished hours before... *snip* And I had to make my decision too with regard to the years ahead... *snip* And so I made my decision."

His decision- made after the Potter's deaths. He then begins to explain the plan, so it's safe to assume that this decision was what became this plan.

But what was the plan? He reveals part of it above- for Harry to be safe and whole. What else?

"Don't you remember asking me, as you lay in the hospital wing, why Voldemort had tried to kill you when you were a baby?"

Harry nodded.

"Ought I to have told you then?"

Harry stared into the blue eyes and said nothing, but his heart was racing again.

"You do not see the flaw in the plan yet? No... perhaps not. Well, as you know, I decided not to answer you. Eleven, I told myself, was much too young to know. I had never intended to tell you when you were eleven. The knowledge would be too much at such a young age.

*snip long exposition*

"Do you see, Harry? Do you see the flaw in my brilliant plan now? I had fallen into the trap I had foreseen, that I had told myself I could avoid, and that I must avoid."

"I don't-"

"I cared about you too much," said Dumbledore simply. "I cared more for your happiness than your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my plan, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed. In other words, I acted exactly as fools who love act.

*snip more exposition*

"And now, tonight, I know you have long been ready for the knowledge I have kept from you for so long, because you have proved that I should have placed the burden on you before this."

The plan, as far as I see, was simply this: To firstly keep Harry safe and whole, then when the tie came, to tell Harry everything; to place the burden on him that Dumbledore should have before this; knowing the Prophecy and knowing what Voldemort would inevitably do because of it. He delayed doing the latter for so long out of love of Harry, but here, he finally completes his plan- to tell Harry the truth. After that, the plan is never mentioned again, because he had finally stopped delaying and followed it.

I seriously doubt Dumbledore had time to come up with any plan in the seconds between Trelawney going into a trance and finishing the Prophecy. More importantly- he would never use innocent people as pawns. Jo as called him the epitome of goodness, which effectively rules out any idea of him ever risking any infants being murdered by a Dark Wizard, no matter what the gain.

As for the confusion surrounding the order of events, that's easy. Trelawney goes into the trance. Halfway through, Aberforth catches Snape listening at the door and begins arguing with him and trying to eject him. This distracts Snape for the remainder of the Prophecy, making it impossible for him to hear the rest. That is why Trelawney says that they were "rudely interrupted by Severus Snape"- it's her first recollection after the trance. The commotion she recalls was the fight that prevented Snape hearing the last part of the Prophecy. She then recalls seeing Snape making excuses to Aberforth.

No way could Dumbledore have engineered a grand plan and summoned anyone in the minute to two minutes it took to deliver the Prophecy. Most importantly- such a plan is totally against Dumbledore's character.

Dumbledore would not endanger the Potters or Longbottoms without their consent. I am sure of that. Since at the time of hearing the Prophecy he doesn't seem to have known to whom it might apply, I doubt that he sent Snape to deliver what he'd heard to Voldemort at that time. I think the "exceptional wizards" argument is meaningless; Voldemort was the greatest Dark Wizard for 100 years and I doubt that Dumbledore expected anyone to outfight him.

I think Hinoema has articulated what probably happened--except I think Trelawney saw Snape and Aberforth as she was going INTO her trance (which is why she remembered it), not as she was coming out.

Hmm. It's possible. I'm just thinking that Snape had to have at least a minute uninterrupted to hear what he did hear-so the scuffle would seem better suited for after the trance, perhaps.

I agree. Also, think what it would do to Harry's image of Dumbledore if he discovered that his parents' deaths, the Longbottom's torture and insanity, Nevile's suffering, his own suffering, and every terrible thing that Voldemort did in his determination to fulfill the prophecy (Bertha Jorkins, the old man, Crouch Sr, and on and on...) was merely a byproduct of a plan made in cold expediency? Harry would give up and let Voldemort kill him, and the readers wouldn't blame him.

Okay I didn't finish reading the article yet, but I wanted to say that there are more than three occasions where we see things from a view other than Harry's (sorry if mentioned already, I didn't look through the pages).

The very first chapter in Book 1 and in Book one part of chapter 13 when Harry is playing Quidditch, for most of the game the focus is on Hermione,Ron and Neville in the stands (Neville and Ron fights with Malfoy Crabbe and Goyle) just wanted to point that out I will continue reading your article though.

Oho! I'm pretty sure you've nailed it. I remember my first read of HBP now - I did notice the disparity between Dumbledore's and Trelawney's stories at first. However, when I'm reading Potter my brain slides out of my ears or something. I'm so eager to keep going that when important things like that come up I soon forget them. Of course, I never thought twice about it on subsequent read-throughs.

It also feels way more likely to me than the "Because Snape was in love with Lily!" theories. I mean, I do feel that maybe there was something, but deciding that's the whole story about the very important question of Snape's loyalty is a bit much.

My thoughts before were like, "What if Snape heard the whole prophecy...nah, why tell Voldemort at all?" Then you come along and make it so obvious. Psh.

I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying this...

If Dumbledore and Snape were already close enough at that point that Snape would only divulge parts of the prophecy that Dumbledore tells him, I don't see why they'd divulge any of it at all.

Wouldn't it be better to keep the prophecy a complete secret, if that were an option? Especially when Dumbledore feels the way he does about prophecies. That would mean that Dumbledore willingly and knowingly put other people's lives in danger, because of some words that he ultimately feels are meaningless unless one brings meaning to them. It also means that he's risking the life of the 'chosen one'.

If they spoke nothing of the prophecy, then there'd be no risk to the life of the chosen one or his/her family and friends.

I appreciate your work, but I'm just not picking up what you're putting down.

~S Black

Hi, I just started reading these editorials, and unfortunately don't have time to read all of the previous posts! So if I repeat something, I apologize.
I like everything about this editorial EXCEPT the part about Snape's loyalties before the prophecy was made, and DD knowingly passing the info to TM though Snape.

In most things, the most obvious and simplest answer or explanation is usually the correct one. And the most obvious and simplest explanation for how Snape only heard part one of the prophecy, and Trelawny was still able to see him after he was "busted," is this:

Snape was listening through a keyhole. He hears the first part: Aberforth sees him, maybe yells "hey you!" or maybe just grabs him right away: in either case Snape is immediately distracted, and between being distracted and trying to get away from/scuffling with Aberforth, he misses the rest of the prophecy. Aberforth overpowers Snape, knocks on the door (Trelawny has just finished the prophecy). He enters with Snape just as Trelawny comes out of the trance. This all happens in a matter of probably less than two minutes: think about it. Read the lines of the prophecy in your head, or say them out loud: it doesn't take long, even speaking slowly! It would have been very possible for Snape to miss the last part (just a matter of half a minute or even less in time!) while being caught and scuffling with Aberforth!

It's not that I don't believe DD wouldn't lie or at least leave out info under the right circumstances: but I do not believe he would purposely bait TM at the risk of unknown lives, all based on a prophecy! We clearly see in HBP that he *does not* put stock in prophecies! DD would not have believed that there really *was* a chosen one! But he knows TM would believe this, and knows that TM will kill people based on a prophecy! No way would DD actively make that happen!

It's as likely that Sibyll is just going INTO her trance when she sees Snape as it is that she's coming out. That would do away with any contradiction between her account and D's.

Dumbledore can simply be dead.

Oh WOW! I never noticed the inconsistency in Snape interrupting and Trelawney's prophecy being uninterrupted... I'm to go and re-read the series now. There must be so many things I'm missing!!! So excited... Excellent work Steve and everyone else who spotted this :)

There is one small problem with your theory. When giving the prophecy Cybill repeats the open lines again after she completes it the first time. It is entirely possible that Snape only heard the fisrt part of the prophecy.

I am also not a fan of the DD lying idea, but I realize it's a possibility! ONE question though. If DD's plan was to take down voldemort by leading him to the Potter's, then why did he have them go into hiding? That is a flaw in the "plan" in general. Of course he wanted them to be safe, but what's the point in telling Voldemort where they are if hes going to go to great lengths to hide them.

If Snape was on Dumbledore's side at the time of the eavesdropping, why was Snape listining in on the interview in the first place?

only 2 conclusions can be drawn:

-Snape/Dumbledore knew that Trelawney was going to make the prophecy
-Snape was not really on Dumbledore's side at that time.

though maybe Snape's conversion to the good side happened right afterwards

Well, yeah, Snape was still on Voldemort's side at this time, and he changed his mind after he told Voldemort, because he realized Voldemort would hunt them. So, he told Dumbledore, and the Potters went into hiding. Am I wrong?

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