Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

I know Grindy's a bit of a dead horse in the HP world, but you guys should hear me out. I've heard a lot of theory's that Grindelwald was the first to create Horcruxes and I think this works perfectly with the following theory: Voldemort left Hogwarts in 1944 and, according to DumbleDore "'After leavng Hogwarts Voldemort fraternised with the very worst of our kind'" We all know that Grindelwald wasn't defeated until 1945. Although Slughorn told Tom Riddle what Horcruxes were, who better than Grindy to tell him how to make them? Let me know what you think!

UPDATE This is now a fan fic! Please read and leave feedback here! (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=106215)

I think this idea makes some sense.We don't know who Riddle learned from after Hogwarts,why not Grindelwald.Could this also be why Tom hated Dumble dore so much,because he killed his mentor Grindelwald?

Amazing. Brilliant. I love you!

Seems quite plausable, as he had to have learnt at least some of his dark magic from someone else, and he wouldn't have been taught that at Hogwarts, and also, is it not so that Darth Vader was taught and brought to the dark side by th Emperor :eyebrows:

I've always liked this theory myself. It makes nice chronological sense for Grindelwald to have mentored Tom over the summers when he was at Hogwarts and possibly for a year or so after he graduated.

Tom Riddle walked into Slughorn's office knowing how to create a horcrux. His question was not "how" but "how many". This strongly suggests the existence of a powerful dark mentor and who better than Grindelwald?

Tom Riddle walked into Slughorn's office knowing how to create a horcrux. His question was not "how" but "how many". This strongly suggests the existence of a powerful dark mentor and who better than Grindelwald?
After re-reading it now, the conversation between Slughorn and Tom was mostly about "how" and later they started to read about "how many". For me it's that Tom knew about Horcruxes, but wanted to learn from Slughorn "how" to create them, otherwise why nagging so much about that?

Grindelwald died in 1945 and Tom was 19 back then. And as Slughorn didn't want to tell him how to create them, Tom still had alot of time after leaving school to learn it from Grindelwald himself.

How do you think could they have met?

Well,Tom did travel so I suppose he could have met him in any of the "dark" places he went.I'm assuming he went to hang out in the places where wizards who knew more than what you were taught in school knew.Maybe foreign wizards.Didn't Durmstrang students learn some dark arts at there school?Maybe I'm wrong.I thought I read that somewhere.

Great theory, it makes a lot of sense.

Tom Riddle walked into Slughorn's office knowing how to create a horcrux. His question was not "how" but "how many". This strongly suggests the existence of a powerful dark mentor and who better than Grindelwald?
As TENSHI said, Tom Riddle did not know how to create Horcruxes when he interrogated Slughorn:
"A Horcrux is the word used for an object in which a person has concealed part of their soul."
"I don't quite understand how that works, though, sir," said Riddle.
His voice was carefully controlled, but Harry could sense his excitement.
.....
But Riddle's hunger was now apparent; his expression was greedy, he could no longer hide his longing.
"How do you split your soul?"
"Well," said Slughorn uncomforably, "you must understand that the soul is supposed to remain intact and whole. splitting it is an act of violation..."
"But how do you do it?"
...
"Encase? But how -?"
This shows that Riddle was still unsure about how Horcruxes worked, and how to create them. However, not receiving a 'good enough' answer, I would assume that he would venture to find someone who could tell him more about Horcruxes. Thus, I also believe that Riddle sought out Grindelwald to receive his wanted information. Once Riddle found Grindelwald and proved himself to him, Grindelwald would almost certainly have given Riddle all he wanted to know, and all that he needed to know to become the next Dark wizard. Grindelwald probably knew that his time was running short, thus he was hurrying to find a successor.

It could also be this reason why Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald - he did not want another powerful Dark wizard in Grindelwald's place. However, Dumbledore would have been too slow to defeat Grindelwald, for Grindelwald would have already taught Riddle all he knew.

Brilliant! Could this be "Dumbledore's greatest regret?"

Absolutly!!How would it be if you spent so much time and effort to get rid of an evil festering pusball only to have an even bigger one pop up in its place!!

Well,Tom did travel so I suppose he could have met him in any of the "dark" places he went.I'm assuming he went to hang out in the places where wizards who knew more than what you were taught in school knew.Maybe foreign wizards.Didn't Durmstrang students learn some dark arts at there school?Maybe I'm wrong.I thought I read that somewhere.
Yes, I remember that too, that they teach Dark Arts at Durmstrang.

But I don't think that the problem is how Tom got to know of Grindelwald, but how it was possible for Tom to him to get near him. Grindelwald seemed to be one big evil wizard and probably also reigned for a few years. So people living at that time should have known him. But why would a wizard like Grindelwald teach a 17 year old boy, especially during a time he was busy with fighting himself. I believe that they either met somewhere accidently and Grindelwald recognised the evilness within Tom and saw a potencial follower in him, maybe someone who will continue his work, and decided to teach him or Tom tracked down Grindelwald and somehow convinced him to teach him how to create Horcruxes. The first thing could have happend before Slughorn's lesson.

Brilliant! Could this be "Dumbledore's greatest regret?"
Sorry, I don't understand this. Why Dumbledore's regret?

It fits, but I don't know, I think it's possible. It fits in with the timeline thing, and I think it's quite possible. If that is what happened, then it would in fact be possible that it was DD's greatest regret and the "KILL ME" would be because he was too late to stop Grindlewald giving to Tom everything he'd need to conquer the Wizarding World and the Muggles.

Sorry, I don't understand this. Why Dumbledore's regret?
That he wasn't fast enough to stop Grindelwald training up a younger more ambitious apprentice

That he was too slow to stop Grindy teaching everything he knew to a younger, more ambitious apprentice
Oh OK. I'm not sure about the "everything" though. For me it's enough if Grindelwald had time to teach him how to make Horcruxes. For all other things, Tom didn't need to have lessons with Grindelwald.

hmmm i like this theory. i wonder, if this theory is indeed true that it, how long they would have spent together. did grindelwald just push him in the right direction and voldemort took over from their, or did grindelwald help him step by step

although, the last seems unlikely as voldemort likes operating alone

also, would voldemort want help, because he likes acting unaided?

Well, when I read the title of this thread I was thinking "no way! Grindlewald was way before Tom Riddle's time!"

But now that I think about it, how do we know that he wasn't killed more recently than I was thinking? Just because no one mentions him...

He was probably killed before Mr. and Mrs. Weasley were born, but not too long before. So I suppose it is very possible that Tom Riddle associated with him. Especially by your quote there...Yup, I believe you, Tom Riddle probably met Grindlewald.

Makes sense that Grindlewald was the first to make horcruxes, though I'm inclined to think that it is a dark, old-ish magic that originated earlier. So I'm not so sure about that part.

Tom Riddle getting mentored by Grindlewald? Possible, but again, I'm inclined to think no. But then again, there's no evidence against it, and I'm probably inclined to say no just because I have never even considered that possibility before I read this theory five minutes ago. I should keep an open mind. It is very possible, now that I think about it properly. yes...

Overall opinion: yes, definitely, I would not be surprised at all if you were right.

hmmm i like this theory. i wonder, if this theory is indeed true that it, how long they would have spent together. did grindelwald just push him in the right direction and voldemort took over from their, or did grindelwald help him step by step

although, the last seems unlikely as voldemort likes operating alone

also, would voldemort want help, because he likes acting unaided?

He probably would get a little lesson or two, have a discussion, but not make it a regular thing. As you said, Voldie likes to operate alone, and relying on another wizard, even one much older and wiser than he, would probably just be too dependant in his book.

Oh, another thing: horcruxes.

When Tom Riddle asked Slughorn about horcruxes, it was obvious that he knew a little bit about them, but he did not know what exactly they were or how to create one. So if Grindlewald did tell Tom Riddle about horcruxes, it was before he asked Slughorn, so when he was about fifteen or sixteen (I'm thinking--that's when he would have started being even more independant and doing things on his own: I can't imagine anyone, even Tom Riddle, finding the Darkest wizard of the time and conversing with him before he was fifteen, because they wouldn't have given him too much independance at the orphanage. I doubt Grindlewald lived in the same town as Tom Riddle), and Grindlewald obviously didn't tell Tom Riddle too much about horcruxes--either because he didn't feel like discussing such things at length with someone so young (perhaps he never even metioned them to Tom, and Tom overheard Grindlewald mentioning them to another, older, more trusted wizard), or because they planned to meet again at a later date, or because their meeting was interrupted before Grindlewald was able to say anything besides the word "horcruxes" or something like that: maybe that was when Dumbledore killed Grindlewald.

Oh, yet another thing I just thought of. Anyone read "Beowulf"? Good literature. If you haven't read it, it's about this warrior guy named Beowulf that slays a monster called the Grendel, thereby saving a village (or something like that) from the Grendel. Notice: "Grendel" sounds a lot like "Grindlewald"--Grendel, put a "wald" on the end, change the vowel sound a little, and you have Grindlewald! A little while after Grendel is dead, his big bad mother comes and Beowulf has to fight her, too. Unfortunately, I don't remember whether he survives this battle or not....Hmm maybe some forshadowing? Probably not, I'm inclined to think.

I've always liked this theory myself. It makes nice chronological sense for Grindelwald to have mentored Tom over the summers when he was at Hogwarts and possibly for a year or so after he graduated.

Exactly - its all got to make sense chronologically before speculations should ensue, and its brilliant that this theory does. It doesn't hurt that Jo herself has mentioned, in the MuggleNet/LC interview if I remember correctly, that Grindelwald is definately going to be significant in Deathly Hallows.

It would definately not surprise me if Grindelwald knew anything about Horcruxes, either, considering we don't actually know anything about him, other than the date he was 'defeated'. I was a bit disappointed that this theory didn't come up in MuggleNet's book, because it seems highly plausible.

He probably would get a little lesson or two, have a discussion, but not make it a regular thing. As you said, Voldie likes to operate alone, and relying on another wizard, even one much older and wiser than he, would probably just be too dependant in his book.

Oh yeah, most definetly, i think he got the instructions from Grindelwald and was gone.

As TENSHI said, Tom Riddle did not know how to create Horcruxes when he interrogated Slughorn:
"A Horcrux is the word used for an object in which a person has concealed part of their soul."
"I don't quite understand how that works, though, sir," said Riddle.
His voice was carefully controlled, but Harry could sense his excitement.
.....
But Riddle's hunger was now apparent; his expression was greedy, he could no longer hide his longing.
"How do you split your soul?"
"Well," said Slughorn uncomforably, "you must understand that the soul is supposed to remain intact and whole. splitting it is an act of violation..."
"But how do you do it?"
...
"Encase? But how -?"
This shows that Riddle was still unsure about how Horcruxes worked, and how to create them. However, not receiving a 'good enough' answer, I would assume that he would venture to find someone who could tell him more about Horcruxes. Thus, I also believe that Riddle sought out Grindelwald to receive his wanted information. Once Riddle found Grindelwald and proved himself to him, Grindelwald would almost certainly have given Riddle all he wanted to know, and all that he needed to know to become the next Dark wizard. Grindelwald probably knew that his time was running short, thus he was hurrying to find a successor.

It could also be this reason why Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald - he did not want another powerful Dark wizard in Grindelwald's place. However, Dumbledore would have been too slow to defeat Grindelwald, for Grindelwald would have already taught Riddle all he knew.


If DD defeated Grindelwald and if Tom Riddle was in awe of his mentors abilities it could explain why he would be afraid of DD after that.

If DD defeated Grindelwald and if Tom Riddle was in awe of his mentors abilities it could explain why he would be afraid of DD after that.

OOOOO yes you are absolutely right. Definitely!

Because I don't think Voldie would be afraid of somebody just because they were really powerful. But if DD slayed somebody that he thought was super powerful, like Grindlewald, then he would definitely consider DD to be even more powerful then his mentor was, and be very afraid of DD.

My only problem with Grindelwald teaching Tom Riddle about horcruxes is that by giving Riddle that info, he'd effectively anoint a successor. If Grindelwald was the big bad dark lord that we think he is, then I doubt he'd willingly give that info to anyone, because they could then figure out how to unseat him.

But...this doesn't preclude Riddle finding it out from Grindelwald. The information may not have been knowingly given. Tom Riddle was a brilliant young man, and he may have found out what he needed to know without Grindelwald knowing it.

My only problem with Grindelwald teaching Tom Riddle about horcruxes is that by giving Riddle that info, he'd effectively anoint a successor. If Grindelwald was the big bad dark lord that we think he is, then I doubt he'd willingly give that info to anyone, because they could then figure out how to unseat him.

But...this doesn't preclude Riddle finding it out from Grindelwald. The information may not have been knowingly given. Tom Riddle was a brilliant young man, and he may have found out what he needed to know without Grindelwald knowing it.

Well, if Grindlewald was the "big bad dark lord that we think he is", then he would probably brag a bit about how big and bad and dark he is. And it would be easy for him to say something like "oh yeah, and I have two horcruxes..." to a group of people sitting at his feet (I have a mental image of Slughorn with the dozen-or-so boys sitting on lower, harder chairs than him, from the memory Harry was supposed to get--it could be something like that), and Tom Riddle would see the older ones go "ooo" and see them all in awe of that achievement, and wonder what horcruxes are, and if he interrogates Grindelwald then he probably won't be told because he is so young. So he asks Slughorn, someone he knows is powerful but a bit foolish and simple.

Again, Tom Riddle could have just heard Grindelwald mentioning it to another person. You know, eavesdropped. After all, Harry finds out things by eavesdropping plenty of times, right?

Grindelwald might have known his demise would come soon and might want to pass his knowledge on to someone worthy enough of it.

My only problem with Grindelwald teaching Tom Riddle about horcruxes is that by giving Riddle that info, he'd effectively anoint a successor. If Grindelwald was the big bad dark lord that we think he is, then I doubt he'd willingly give that info to anyone, because they could then figure out how to unseat him.

But...this doesn't preclude Riddle finding it out from Grindelwald. The information may not have been knowingly given. Tom Riddle was a brilliant young man, and he may have found out what he needed to know without Grindelwald knowing it.
Good point. Tom really could have turned against his own mentor later, knowing of how much power he has now. Like said Tom was always someone who liked to work alone and trusted nobody.

Good point. Tom really could have turned against his own mentor later, knowing of how much power he has now.

Yup, very true.

This is strongly reminding me of that part in Episode III (Star Wars, people, haven't you noticed yet that I'm obsessed with two things at once?) when Chancellor Palpatine tells Anakin the story of that Sith lord that taught his apprentice everything he knew and then was killed by his apprentice. Funnily enough, there was a resisting-death factor in that story, too. The Sith lord knew how to stop people from dying, and then he taught his apprentice and, ironically, didn't see his own death coming. This is sounding a lot like the idea that Tom Riddle turned against Grindelwald, no? Except that, if Tom talked to him before talking to Slughorn, Grindelwald didn't teach Tom anything about horcruxes besides their name, or, if Tom talked to him after Slughorn, then perhaps he learned the finer parts of the process (how to do it, exactly) from Grindelwald. What I mean to say is, these stories are very, very similar, except that Tom Riddle wasn't the one who killed Grindelwald. Unless he was the one that tipped Dumbledore off which led to Grindelwald's death....?

OK I'll stop discussing Star Wars and the movie-everyone-hated-except-me (a.k.a. Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith) now. But the similarity was too good not to point out. No, I do not think that JKR put that in on purpose. Was it really put in? I'm building on so much conjecture here, I don't know where the "true" facts end and the implied and assumed facts start...

Heh, I think you identified the subconscious source of my contention leia :). My sources for my contention were DD's statement to Harry about tyrants always being on the lookout for their successor...and, on a subconscious level, Palpatine having killed his mentor and then he was later killed by his own protoge. Thanks for alerting me, so to say, about the other inspiration :p.

Heh, I think you identified the subconscious source of my contention leia :). My sources for my contention were DD's statement to Harry about tyrants always being on the lookout for their successor...and, on a subconscious level, Palpatine having killed his mentor and then he was later killed by his own protoge. Thanks for alerting me, so to say, about the other inspiration :p.

Hey, you've got it exactly! And, guess what, I never even remembered Palpatine getting killed by Darth Vader...time for me to connect the new movies to the old.

Thanks! :) And I'd forgotten about DD's statement about tyrants. It's exactly what I was thinking of, tyrants looking out for their successors and such. I love thinking on the same level as somebody else.

Just a note - this really doesn't fit timeline too well.

Tom was a fifth year in '42-'43 (50 years before bk2). So his final year at Hogwarts was '44-'45. WWII ends in Aug'45 (supposedly with the defeat of Grindelwald).

So, Tom needed to find Grindelwald sometime between mid-June'45 and August'45 in the midst of a war and ask about horcrux making (IF one believes he did not know how to make a horcrux when he asked Slughorn)

Now admittedly, Tom was 17 during the summer before. An adult by wizarding standards. Whether this allowed him to leave the orphanage before 18 (adult in the muggle world) is unknown.

However, Voldy says he 'left' the orphange to kill his father (and grandparents). That was summer '43 and he would have been 16. Unclear whether he ever returned to the orphanage after that or not. 'Left' could mean left early that summer and went straight to Hogwarts afterwards. IF he was then 17 for the next summer he MIGHT not have needed to go back to the orphanage.

IF so, then he would have needed to be taken in by some friend's family (or supported monetarily by his friends) - since he has not been mentioned as having worked until he took the job at B&B

Note: according to Dumbledore (HBP20) Tom applied immediately upon graduation for the DADA position and was turned down. "the next thing the staff knew," he was working at B&B. That would SEEM to mean very soon after graduation. Which would pretty well mess up the chance to go find Grindelwald.

Leaving really only the summer of '43-'44 as the only possibility - approximately a 2-1/2 month window for an English wizard who was attending Hogwarts (home to Grindelwald's enemy) to find Grindelwald and learn from him. IF we use Slughorn's memory as proof that Tom didn't know how to make a horcrux, then he certainly didn't learn it from Grindelwald.

I'm not convinced that Tom did NOT know how to make a horcrux in that memory, but instead was 'pretending' - trying to get the real info he wanted - was it possible to make more than one. However, I think it unlikely because it tipped his hand to Slughorn. But again - perhaps he was unsure that he had done the first horcrux correctly?

It is unclear (I think) whether Tom created a horcrux before leaving Hogwarts. He certainly seems to have done so before leaving B&B as he is slightly affected appearance-wise in the memory from Hokey.

My personal favorite theory on this is that Tom found the info for making Horcruxes somehow among some heirloom books of Orion's or Walburga's. It might explain how Regulus was able to figure out Voldy had made a horcrux. It might also give us somewhere for Voldy to have lived between 6th and 7th year (IF he didn't return to the orphanage once he was a wizarding adult)

Note also that Walburga was 2 years older than Voldy while Orion was apparently 2 years younger than Voldy. IF the book was found at #12 (and still around later for Regulus to find) then I think it was Walburga who would have offered him a home for the summer (mirror to Sirius???) as #12 SEEMS to have been HER home, not her husband's

Great post, hwyla! I hadn't read that theory about the books at #12, but I might have to seek out a thread on that specifically. That could give a whole new dimension to Bellatrix as well.

There are parts of this theory about Riddle being mentored by Grindelwald that I do find intriguing, though I assumed Riddle's earliest knowledge of horcruxes - before even asking Slughorn - was probably from visiting shops in Knockturn Alley, possibly Borgin & Burkes, possibly others we don't know specifically. Books that wouldn't be found in even in the Restricted Section of Hogwarts' library. But I think it's possible that he might have studied writings about Grindelwald, or just heard rumors of what he might be up to - just as Voldemort is written and whispered about - and decided to try to seek him out. Once he was 17 and able to apparate, if he had an approximation of Grindelwald's whereabouts, he could go on brief trips seeking him, or seeking information from his followers, while still having a day job at Borgin & Burkes. But JKR once said about Dumbledore - I don't have the exact quote, forgive me - but that he was largely self-taught, even though he'd been to school, he'd sought out knowledge on his own. I think Riddle would have been much the same, but drawn to the dark arts. He refused help from Dumbledore even on his very first trip to Diagon Alley - he could have been enticed into Knockturn Alley very easily. But because of his solitary nature, I don't see him being a follower of Grindelwald - at least, not a faithful follower. Is it possible that he provided Dumbledore - directly or indirectly - with some piece of crucial information that led to Grindelwald's defeat, hoping that he might gain from it - or at least get another dark lord out of the way without having to personally risk his own neck? He would have had at least one horcrux, maybe more, he'd killed all three Riddles and been responsible for Hepzibah Smith's death by ordering Hokey to poison her, but he probably didn't have seven - why risk it if DD is already on the case?

I think Riddle could have intimate knowledge of the manner in which Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald - "We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom." Could this be what Dumbledore meant? JKR has certainly strongly hinted that we will find out much more about Dumbledore's past - was this comment an allusion to Grindelwald, a personal loss, or something else?

Chamber of Secrets, Dumbledore:

He disappeared after leaving the school ... traveled far and wide ... sank so deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very worst of our kind, underwent so many dangerous, magical transformations, that when he resurfaced as Lord Voldemort, he was barely recognizable.

Dumbledore said our kind. Wich means he was refering to himself, his kind.
The wizarding kind. Present; Voldemort is the Darkest wizard around. But before him there was someone else - Grindewald. In those days, when he was powerful and began the wars, wizarding kind would have called him the darkest Wizard ergo "the very worst of our kind."

That makes alot of sense. I can see it happening.

I don't think that they actually knew each other, but I'm sure that Tom got some ideas from Grindelwald.

I can see it happening but I don't know how much knowledge Grindlewald could have imparted on the young Riddle, especially if Dumbledore was on the verge of destroying him at that point. But if he did, is that how Dumbledore first heard about Riddles horcruxes? Did he maybe fight against Riddle and Grindlewald?

I believe that Tom Riddle began leaving the orphanage in the summers, early in his school career. The orphanage would not be sorry to see him leave, and I doubt that they would have made much of an effort to keep him at the orphanage. Therefore, during the summers (as early as after his first year at Hogwarts), Riddle sought out Grindelwald. He eventually found him, and Grindelwald began teaching Riddle everything he needed/wanted to know in order to become the next great Dark wizard (I believe that Grindelwald was reluctant, at first, to mentor Riddle, but after Riddle proved himself he was eager to. Grindelwald most likely knew that his demise was near, and was therefore eager to train a successor). I now believe that Riddle killed his father and grandparents the summer before his sixth year, and then went to Grindelwald. Riddle had come across the term 'Horcruxes' during his reading at Hogwarts, but wanted to know more. Thus, he asked/persuaded Grindelwald to reveal the information about making Horcruxes. Knowing how to create Horcruxes (due to Grindelwald's teaching), Riddle returned to Hogwarts. Although I am contradicting my earlier post, I believe that Riddle did know how to make Horcruxes when he interrogated Slughorn (simply based on theory - my earlier post was based on canon). Therefore, before he made the diary a Horcrux, he wanted to ask Slughorn if he could make more than one Horcrux (to make certain that the diary would not be his first and last Horcrux). Receiving an acceptable answer from Slughorn, Riddle then made the diary a Horcrux (doing what Grindelwald told him to do), and thus planned to make more.

With this theory, Riddle would certainly have enough time to find Grindelwald, persuade Grindelwald to mentor him, learn about Horcruxes, and make his first Horcrux before the summer after his sixth year. He would thus have one more summer to meet with Grindelwald, but Dumbledore, retrieving the memory from Slughorn, saw what it contained (he guessed that Riddle knew how to make Horcruxes, and he also guessed that Grindelwald was the only one who could have given him that information), and then was hurried to defeat Grindelwald before he could do any further damage (teach/tell Riddle anything more).

As I said in post #9:
It could also be this reason why Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald - he did not want another powerful Dark wizard in Grindelwald's place. However, Dumbledore would have been too slow to defeat Grindelwald, for Grindelwald would have already taught Riddle all he knew.
Chamber of Secrets, Dumbledore:

He disappeared after leaving the school ... traveled far and wide ... sank so deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very worst of our kind, underwent so many dangerous, magical transformations, that when he resurfaced as Lord Voldemort, he was barely recognizable.
Dumbledore said our kind. Wich means he was refering to himself, his kind.
The wizarding kind. Present; Voldemort is the Darkest wizard around. But before him there was someone else - Grindewald. In those days, when he was powerful and began the wars, wizarding kind would have called him the darkest Wizard ergo "the very worst of our kind."
A very good catch, PoeticHeart! I agree that "the very worst of our kind" would certainly refer to Grindelwald (after all, the Blacks were not the worst of wizards), and thus backs this theory up quite nicely.

woah MrSleepyHead...thats a really brilliant idea.

I think this idea makes some sense.We don't know who Riddle learned from after Hogwarts,why not Grindelwald.Could this also be why Tom hated Dumble dore so much,because he killed his mentor Grindelwald?


Could be. However, I don't think that was the only reason Voldemort hated Dumbledore. Remeber when Harry went into Dumbledore's pensieve and seen when Voldemort was applying for the Dark Arts job, he could've started hating him long beofre that. Also, Voldemort or Tom said that Dumbledore had never liked him, so his hatred began there.

Also, Grindelwald would be the perfect candidate to teach Voldemort or Tom, how to create the Horcuxes. Then when Dumbledore defeated him, Voldemort was exactly sure how to create them, so he went to Slughorn for advice.

Chamber of Secrets, Dumbledore:

Quote: He disappeared after leaving the school ... traveled far and wide ... sank so deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very worst of our kind, underwent so many dangerous, magical transformations, that when he resurfaced as Lord Voldemort, he was barely recognizable.

Dumbledore said our kind. Wich means he was refering to himself, his kind. The wizarding kind. Present; Voldemort is the Darkest wizard around. But before him there was someone else - Grindewald. In those days, when he was powerful and began the wars, wizarding kind would have called him the darkest Wizard ergo "the very worst of our kind."
Very good catch. I agree that the "very worst of our kind" is referred to a bad wizard and Grindelwald was one at that time. That would fit. :tu:

I agree that Tom Riddle's dislike of DD was more than just possibly that DD defeated his mentor. I think Riddle's wariness or dislike of DD started very soon after he got to Hogwarts, when he probably noticed DD keeping a close eye on him. DD securing Hagrid the gameskeeper job after Riddle framed Hagrid for the CoS opening probably sealed the deal for Riddle's dislike of DD, since he (RIddle) then knew that DD saw through him. He (Riddle) probably also identified DD as potentially the biggest obstacle to him becoming the big bad dark lord (to quote myself), since Riddle was smart enough to know that even though Dippett was the Headmaster and Slughorn his head of house, DD was the most powerful wizard or witch at Hogwarts at the time.

I tend to think that the orphanage didn't care much whether TR left during the summer months. He probably wandered far and wide during his summers, especially towards the end of his Hogwarts career. It'd be interesting to know; however, if DD knew this even prior to Riddle leaving Hogwarts. DD may have been trying to keep an eye on TR even while outside Hogwarts, but it's an open question as to whether he would have had the ability to at least know if TR wasn't at the orphanage, since it wouldn't be as simple as knocking on their door and asking.

The problem with assuming that "...He disappeared after leaving the school ... traveled far and wide ... sank so deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very worst of our kind, underwent so many dangerous, magical transformations, that when he resurfaced as Lord Voldemort, he was barely recognizable. means Voldy associated with Grindelwald is that it all takes place AFTER Tom worked at B&B, killed Hezipah Smith (sp?) and stole her heirlooms. Grindelwald was surely defeated well before this.

We are unsure of the exact date Tom disappeared - however we do know the very earliest he could have made his reappearance. He disappeared for 10 years, but when he came back he applied for the DADA job. Albus was Headmaster by then - so at the very earliest he asked for the job in Dec'56 (the month Minerva was hired to teach Transfiguration). IF that's the earliest and he was missing for 10 years then supposedly he would not have disappeared before Dec'46. And WWII ended in Aug'45 - more than a year before.

So Albus' quote about Tom associating with the worst of our kind when he disappeared for 10 years cannot be referring to Grindelwald as he had already been defeated over a year before.

And - of course - 'worst of our kind' does not need to be limited to one person (as in the very worst wizard), but could just as easily mean multiple 'dark' wizards.



As to Tom leaving the orphanage during summers - the problem would be where would he live - he didn't have money to life on and he didn't have a job. The big risk would be what if the orphanage wouldn't take him back and he had to live on the street? Considering Sirius was taken in by the Potters, I don't see this as insurrmountable. But it must be considered.

The summer after his 5th year he certainly lived at the orphanage for at least part of the summer - that was the whole point of framing Hagrid, Dippet couldn't allow him to stay over the summer. Also - Albus tells us he 'left' the orphange - just doesn't specify whether he left it for the summer or forever.

So he leaves the orphange and goes to Little Hangleton - where he kills the Riddles and frames Uncle Morphin.

This COULD be at the very end of summer and he then took the Hogwarts Express after that - unknown. But he would have been only 16 at the time and considered underage and illegal for apparating. That December however he would turn 17 and so be considered an adult. I think he would have found somewhere else to live for that summer. Just as I can't see Harry living at the Dursleys after turning 17 - I can't see Tom continuing at the orphanage.

So - I would say he was 'free' for the summer of '43-'44 - altho' probably living with SOME school friend's family. Tom couldn't live at the Leaky Cauldron like Harry did - no inheritance. That does leave open time and apparating ability for him to go meet Grindelwald. 2-1/2 months of summer. The problem I see would be 1) getting an introduction - I doubt Grindelwald would 'see' a 17-year-old English wizard without a prior introduction and 2) whatever they talked about it either was NOT Horcrux-Making 101 -or- Tom was being very 'tricky' when trying to get the info on making horcruxes out of Slughorn, since Slug's memory was apparently from Tom's 7th year

If Grindelwald was defeated by Dumbledore, then I doubt that anyone, especially a student from Hogwarts would be able to contact him. If he was defeated, then he was either dead, or in Askaban. I doubt that Voldermort could have spoken with him in either case. The only other possibility would be that he left books about his beliefs, and that Tom Riddle read these to learn about Grindelwald.

Voldmort may have learned from Grindelwald but I don't think the learning came from him personally. I may have been something written. The information on Horcruxes must be written someplace. It just can't be found at Hogwarts. Tom Riddle had to leave Hogwarts to research the Horcrux and how to make one.

I don't know if he mentored him personally by this time Riddle knew he was the heir of slytherin. In Riddles opinion that made him the greatest wizard in the world. Grindelwald was probably someone he admired but knew he would have to be out of the way before Riddle took over the wizarding world and continued slytherins great work.

Shot down!

Grindelwald wasn't the first to make a Horcrux, however, I belive that, When JK. Rowling, said that "Dumbledore defeated, Grindelwald." I think she meant that Dumbledore didn't kill him, possably taken all his wizarding powers from him? [And succeeded.]

I say this because I couldn't see Dumbledore killing somone, plus what's a darkwizards most feared moment, we all know what Voldemorts is, and it isn't death. We all know what he thinks about Muggles, and Mud Bloods.

After that, Grindelwald lived miserably as a muggle thinking over his mistakes, and how he could have succeded. Then a young boy comes to his door, asking many questions about Horcrux's, that Slughorn got him interested in, Tom, the young boy studied for awhile, under Grindelwald, until he learn't how to do more and more about the dark arts. From who at the time was the scariest evil lord. [Who woul dbe a muggle.]

Then Tom kill's Grindelwald, since he was a muggle.

This would explain the 25 years missing and, him leaving Hogwarts at 1945, now since he was dipping his toes in the Dark Arts. He goes and trys out what he's learnt, things like, Killing his Grandparents in the same year he leaves Hogwarts, aswell as his father.

Grindelwald wasn't the first to make a Horcrux, however, I belive that, When JK. Rowling, said that "Dumbledore defeated, Grindelwald." I think she meant that Dumbledore didn't kill him, possably taken all his wizarding powers from him? [And succeeded.]
That could be an explaination, although I don't agree with the way he defeated him. We know that Grindelwald is dead, but "defeat" really doesn't necessary means killing. He could have died later as well. So there could be time for him to teach Tom.

That could be an explaination, although I don't agree with the way he defeated him. We know that Grindelwald is dead, but "defeat" really doesn't necessary means killing. He could have died later as well. So there could be time for him to teach Tom.

My explanation didn't say that Grindelwald was Killed by Dumbledore, and J.K said that Grindelwald was 100% dead, which is what I think happened. Dumbledore knows that there are worse things then death. So why not use them?

And we all know that Tom hates Muggles, so then Tom killed Grindelwald.

My explanation didn't say that Grindelwald was Killed by Dumbledore, and J.K said that Grindelwald was 100% dead, which is what I think happened. Dumbledore knows that there are worse things then death. So why not use them?

And we all know that Tom hates Muggles, so then Tom killed Grindelwald.
Actually I agreed with you in my post, about that Dumbledore didn't need to kill Grindelwald then. :)

But when Dumbledore removed Grindelwalds power, he wouldn't be of any use for Tom. OK, he could explain it to him, but not showing him by performing the magic himself. *is pondering*

Well Slughorn got Tom interested in Horcrux's, and tom made one Horcrux in his young age, [the diary] I think Tom would like to know how to make a second, and no one knows how, because it's pritty complecated. If you want I wouldn't mind explaining how I think it would be complecated through Msn.
Anyways, Tom want's to make a second, and unfortunatly, the only live person that he knows of that has A Horcrux is Grindelwald. Maybe Tom thought that Grindelwald knew how to make more then one? And even still, you don't need to show how to do it. Take the third book for example, when Lupin teaches Potter, how to do the Petronas charm.

an.evil.lord.grindelwald@hotmail.com

I don't know anyone better then Grindelwald(if it's true)to have full knowledge of horcruxes other than maybe Dumbledore.So Voldy might have have been his pupil.Thanks for the brilliant idea.

Even still, if dumbledore had knowledge, he wouldn't tell anyone anything. =]

But when Dumbledore removed Grindelwalds power, he wouldn't be of any use for Tom. OK, he could explain it to him, but not showing him by performing the magic himself.

Tom didn't need Slughorn to show him how to create a Horcrux, yet he managed to make not only one but 7. So you can assume that if Grindelwald had indeed taught Tom then he would have managed to learn it.

But I disagree. Why? Because Dumbledore recognizes both Tom Riddle and Grindelwald, and when he undoes the barrier in the cave he says that he knows Tom's style having taught him for years. Now if Voldemort had set those things up as he would and with his own style and fashion, why would he need Grindelwald? I mean he can do so many things on his own, by his own research and discoveries...moreover Dumbledore would have detected Grindelwald teaching Voldemort seeing that he would have recognized his style in Voldemort. ;)

Tom didn't need Slughorn to show him how to create a Horcrux, yet he managed to make not only one but 7. So you can assume that if Grindelwald had indeed taught Tom then he would have managed to learn it.

But I disagree. Why? Because Dumbledore recognizes both Tom Riddle and Grindelwald, and when he undoes the barrier in the cave he says that he knows Tom's style having taught him for years. Now if Voldemort had set those things up as he would and with his own style and fashion, why would he need Grindelwald? I mean he can do so many things on his own, by his own research and discoveries...moreover Dumbledore would have detected Grindelwald teaching Voldemort seeing that he would have recognized his style in Voldemort. ;)


... Tom learnt about horcrux's from Slughorn, what do you mean he didn't need him.. If you're trying to learn something new, you ask somone first, you don't head right into study, because it would be a mis use of time, if somone knows it.

We know for sure that Slughorn and Tom talked about Horcrux's. Tom needed Slughorn, or else he would only have to be killed once, and the books are over.

Well Slughorn got Tom interested in Horcrux's, and tom made one Horcrux in his young age, [the diary] I think Tom would like to know how to make a second, and no one knows how, because it's pritty complecated. If you want I wouldn't mind explaining how I think it would be complecated through Msn.
Anyways, Tom want's to make a second, and unfortunatly, the only live person that he knows of that has A Horcrux is Grindelwald. Maybe Tom thought that Grindelwald knew how to make more then one? And even still, you don't need to show how to do it. Take the third book for example, when Lupin teaches Potter, how to do the Petronas charm.
Not true, Tom knew of the Horcruxes before the Slughorn class. He said that he read of them. And he particurally wanted to know how to make one, when he already made on (diary) then why bothering to ask how to make one. I don't think you need another spell for each Horcrux you create.


Tom didn't need Slughorn to show him how to create a Horcrux, yet he managed to make not only one but 7. So you can assume that if Grindelwald had indeed taught Tom then he would have managed to learn it.

But I disagree. Why? Because Dumbledore recognizes both Tom Riddle and Grindelwald, and when he undoes the barrier in the cave he says that he knows Tom's style having taught him for years. Now if Voldemort had set those things up as he would and with his own style and fashion, why would he need Grindelwald? I mean he can do so many things on his own, by his own research and discoveries...moreover Dumbledore would have detected Grindelwald teaching Voldemort seeing that he would have recognized his style in Voldemort.
But the fact that Tom ran to Slughorn to find out how to create Horcruxes is a sign IMO that his knowledge was limited in this case. We know that Tom is a loner who likes to not to trust others. I think that he tried to manage it as well, before consulting third parties.

And about Dumbledore recognising something. We don't know how creating a Horcrux really works. It could be as well that Horcruxes exists since centuries and are created always in the same way. You wouldn't recognise any particular style then.

... Tom learnt about horcrux's from Slughorn, what do you mean he didn't need him.. If you're trying to learn something new, you ask somone first, you don't head right into study, because it would be a mis use of time, if somone knows it.

We know for sure that Slughorn and Tom talked about Horcrux's. Tom needed Slughorn, or else he would only have to be killed once, and the books are over.
Tom wanted to know from Slughorn how you create Horcruxes, but Slughorn refused to tell him.

Not true, Tom knew of the Horcruxes before the Slughorn class. He said that he read of them. And he particurally wanted to know how to make one, when he already made on (diary) then why bothering to ask how to make one. I don't think you need another spell for each Horcrux you create.



But the fact that Tom ran to Slughorn to find out how to create Horcruxes is a sign IMO that his knowledge was limited in this case. We know that Tom is a loner who likes to not to trust others. I think that he tried to manage it as well, before consulting third parties.

And about Dumbledore recognising something. We don't know how creating a Horcrux really works. It could be as well that Horcruxes exists since centuries and are created always in the same way. You wouldn't recognise any particular style then.


Yes, however, if you get more knowledge you become more powerful. I don't think it would be another spell, just balancing your soul out so you have more soul in your body then the Horcrux's, aswell as, what could or would happen. Aswell as, I think he wouldn't be scared, specially, if he was heading to a Muggle, and knows the three unforgivable curses, I really don't think Tom would be scared of anything to happen, like I think he would feel secure just talking.

Plus there arn't any books on Horcrux's it tells you what it is, and what it does, but no spells or incantations to make it, because it's forbidden under the Ministry.


Indeed, which would be why, he would go to Grindelwald.

Voldy knew DD wouldn't teach him so he may have gone to Grindy.Sharpmarkr

Actually, I think he went to Slughorn then Grindelwald. But yeah, the thing is, is that he is important, and many harry potter "Fans" don't know much about him.

Plus there arn't any books on Horcrux's it tells you what it is, and what it does, but no spells or incantations to make it, because it's forbidden under the Ministry.
It's a banned topic yes, but we don't know when it was banned. Maybe there existed books about how to create them earlier.


Indeed, which would be why, he would go to Grindelwald.
Because Grindelwald was the big bad guy back then. And when not learning from from him, then from whom else?

But the fact that Tom ran to Slughorn to find out how to create Horcruxes is a sign IMO that his knowledge was limited in this case. We know that Tom is a loner who likes to not to trust others. I think that he tried to manage it as well, before consulting third parties.

But you agree that he firstly looked up for it, and then resorted to asking Slughorn. That was teenage Tom Riddle who didn't have his resources as spread out as he had them since he left Hogwarts. Slughorn said, that one would be hard-pushed to find a book at Hogwarts that'll give them details on Horcruxes, but he never said that there weren't books out there that would have given him the information on Horcruxes. I agree that he wouldn't have known if he could split his soul more than once since Dumbledore makes that point, but that piece of evidence is enough to suggest that the resources of Tom were limited when at Hogwarts, once out he was a free bird and could research whatever he wanted extensively. Therefore it isn't necessary that he needed a mentor. Moreover he always claims everything that he did to be his own creation or research. I wouldn't go against that fact. ;)

And about Dumbledore recognising something. We don't know how creating a Horcrux really works. It could be as well that Horcruxes exists since centuries and are created always in the same way. You wouldn't recognise any particular style then.

Oh no, when I had said style, I didn't mean style of making of Horcruxes, for Dumbledore never saw the real one in the cave, I meant that Dumbledore had faced Voldemort enough (after he had come back in action all transformed) and all his ways and means were quite similar to Tom Riddle who he (Dumbledore) had taught. This clearly shows that he didn't have any mentor teach him anything for as one will agree the mentor is to affect the style of his pupil in one way or the other. But that is not the case with Voldemort and hence he wasn't tutored by anyone, let alone Grindelwald. ;)

It's a banned topic yes, but we don't know when it was banned. Maybe there existed books about how to create them earlier.
I might have to do some research.

Because Grindelwald was the big bad guy back then. And when not learning from from him, then from whom else?
Indeed, but if Grindelwald still had power why would he tell Tom? Possably he seen himself in Tom? Or worse. That's a possability, but, if I was just defeated and created into a muggle from a feared Wizard, I would want vengence, and that is why I think Grindelwald would tell Tom anything he wanted to know, so that tom could one day kill Dumbledore.

This shows that Riddle was still unsure about how Horcruxes worked, and how to create them. However, not receiving a 'good enough' answer, I would assume that he would venture to find someone who could tell him more about Horcruxes.I agree. The fact that Voldemort asks Sluggy twice how it is done, and also that Harry can see the wild glee on Voldemort's face, shows that Voldemort was finally getting information that he had long been seeking. At most, he had learned that Horcruxes were a way to stay immortal and that they involved a piece of the sou.


Grindelwald is a really simple explanation for this. As the foremost Dark Wizard of the time, Grindelwald has the highest probability of knowing the Encasing spell. This must be a very obscure piece of magic: it is pretty clear that none of the Death Eaters know much about it, or they would not have been misled by Voldemort's claims of "experiments" to find immortality. They would have worked out that Voldemort had long since known how to be immortal.

If this idea does turn out to be correct, then Harry will have a good idea for where to look for another Horcrux: the place where Voldemort learned the Horcrux spell must rank up there with the Shack, the Cave and the Chamber in terms of places of personal importance.

But you agree that he firstly looked up for it, and then resorted to asking Slughorn. That was teenage Tom Riddle who didn't have his resources as spread out as he had them since he left Hogwarts. Slughorn said, that one would be hard-pushed to find a book at Hogwarts that'll give them details on Horcruxes, but he never said that there weren't books out there that would have given him the information on Horcruxes. I agree that he wouldn't have known if he could split his soul more than once since Dumbledore makes that point, but that piece of evidence is enough to suggest that the resources of Tom were limited when at Hogwarts, once out he was a free bird and could research whatever he wanted extensively. Therefore it isn't necessary that he needed a mentor. Moreover he always claims everything that he did to be his own creation or research. I wouldn't go against that fact.

I think that it was a banned topic though. Like I said before i'll have to do some research. It was probably before 1945 when they banned it. It wouldn't make sence having something that could make you live again, sitting in your local library. [That would be like selling bombs to a Terrorist..] >>;;

The place where Voldemort learned the Horcrux spell must rank up there with the Shack, the Cave and the Chamber in terms of places of personal importance.

Yeah, it looks like Harry's gonna have to hit the books and find out more about important places in the first war!

Yeah, it looks like Harry's gonna have to hit the books and find out more about important places in the first war!Those probably are too late: Voldemort probably had hidden the "cached" Horcruxes (Ring, Locket, Cup, Unknown) by then.

Realistically, Voldemort would want places that would not be in history books (like the Cave and Shack) or associated with his name (like the Chamber). However, where he learned how to make a Horcrux would be such a place, especially if that was with Grindelwald.

This also might be why we will see Krum in Hallows: Grindelwald likely was in Central or Eastern Europe given his name. So, Rowling could kill several birds with one stone here.

I don't think so. Wasn't Gridnelwald before Riddle's time?

Indeed, and though i'm not 100% sure, I would suppose Durmstrang is either in Germany or Austria. ;]
I don't think so. Wasn't Gridnelwald before Riddle's time?
Uhm no, riddle was getting out of Hogwarts when Grindelwald was being defeated. >>;

I think that Grindelwald did teach Voldemort how to make Horcruxes since he was a great dark wizard at that time!...But for what reason would he want to teach Tom Riddle for?...Maybe he did see something great in Tom and he took him under his wing and taught him everything he needed to know about Horcruxes and maybe because Voldemort was the Heir of the great Salayzar Slytherin?!!....I think that Grindelwald and Voldemort were something like the evil twisted version of Harry and Dumbledore?!

Originally Posted by dobbysocks
Yeah, it looks like Harry's gonna have to hit the books and find out more about important places in the first war!

What will prove important will be in the construction of the Horcruxes. This may be documentation from Grindelwald that be critical. Knowing how to make one is key to taking them apart without dire consequences.

Uhm no, riddle was getting out of Hogwarts when Grindelwald was being defeated. >>;

How do we know this? Is there a quote or something that can tell us for sure??

What will prove important will be in the construction of the Horcruxes. This may be documentation from Grindelwald that be critical. Knowing how to make one is key to taking them apart without dire consequences.There is no reason to think that there are any dire consequences to destroying a Horcrux. Nothing happened to Harry when he destroyed the Diary. Dumbledore was hurt by a curse protecting the Ring, but he never said anything to suggest that releasing/destroying the soul fragment within caused any harm.

How do we know this? Is there a quote or something that can tell us for sure??In Stone, we learn that Grindelwald was defeated in 1945. In Chamber, we learn that it is 1992, and that the Chamber had been opened 50 years before. We know that Voldemort was a 5th year at that time, which means he finished in 1945. We also know that Voldemort was 17 at New Years during his 6th year, which means that he could freely apparate anywhere during the summer of 1944.

There is no reason to think that there are any dire consequences to destroying a Horcrux. Nothing happened to Harry when he destroyed the Diary. Dumbledore was hurt by a curse protecting the Ring, but he never said anything to suggest that releasing/destroying the soul fragment within caused any harm.

By "Dire Consequence" I do not mean that it is necessarily something that is immediately apparent.

By "Dire Consequence" I do not mean that it is necessarily something that is immediately apparent.Regardless, there is no indication that there are any dire consquences, immediate or delayed, of destroying a Horcrux!

Regardless, there is no indication that there are any dire consquences, immediate or delayed, of destroying a Horcrux!

I don't know, each one seems to have a protective curse on it. I mean Harry almost got killed by the Basilsk when he tried to destroy the diary!

I don't know, each one seems to have a protective curse on it. I mean Harry almost got killed by the Basilsk when he tried to destroy the diary!Nothing happened when Harry tried to destroy the Diary. The basilisk already was dead before Harry even seized upon the idea: Harry was poisoned and dying. Harry was not trying to destroy the diary when he was fighting the basilisk: mostly, he was just trying to stay alive!

Dumbledore was hurt by one of the protective curses, not by "de-Horcruxing" the Ring.

We should expect that the other Horcruxes will have protections. However, once Harry gets the object out of the place, we have no reason to think that he'll be in any particular danger.

Yeah sorry, just to clarify, I'm not saying the actual Horcrux is dangerous, but it's looking like Voldemort has got them pretty well protected!

Well, how would Riddle have found out about Horcruxes if they are a banned subject at Hogwarts and he has no wizarding family to inform him about them. Does that mean that he found Grindelwald, who might have told him about the Horcruxes, and maybe explained them to him. Just something to think about I guess.

It's possible (I've wondered where he learned the spell to create Horcruxes), but Tom Riddle prefered to work alone if he could help it. I don't think he would have liked the idea of being able to accredit his achievement of immortality to someone else.

We know that Tom didn't create the spell to make Horcruxes, so it logically folllows that, like most of hiis other knowledge, he must have learned it from someone

Well, Tom Riddle dosen't strike me as a guy who would become a servant or a follower or even a student, once he was overage, I think though that as he had to learn the dark stuff from somebody, grindelwald was the guy to do it, but still dont see it gridelwald the master and tom the servant hmm...? nah

Well, Tom Riddle dosen't strike me as a guy who would become a servant or a follower or even a student, once he was overage, I think though that as he had to learn the dark stuff from somebody, grindelwald was the guy to do it, but still dont see it gridelwald the master and tom the servant hmm...? nah

Whomever Tom Riddle associated with during the time that, in DD's words, "He associated with the worst of our kind" (and that's one of the only two pieces of canon we have for tha time period in LV's history; the second being that his appearance became more mutilated), I agree that Tom Riddle didn't see his role as that of a servant. I'd compare him more to a parasite or leech - he attached himself to the "mentor" for as long as needed, and as soon as the mentor wasn't useful, he detached himself. He may have killed the mentor or simply left; depending on the situation.

Getting back to Grindelwald, he's certainly a possibility for the early part of Tom Riddle's foray deep into the Dark Arts. Because I think that in no way would a powerful Grindelwald have taken an apprentice, I think that Tom Riddle got his information from Grindelwald unwittingly. Or, he got his info from a "powerless" Grindelwald, if the theory that DD stripped Grindelwald of his magical powers is true.

This is a very interesting thread. My thoughts on the matters are that Grindewald could have mentored Tom. In the horcrux bit, I believe that like hermione Tom devoured almost every book in the library and that is where he discovered the word horcrux but having no explanation of it went to professor slughorn to learn more about it. On where he found grindewald according to the lexicon Grindewald is a place in switzerland and this may be where he found him. The other possibility is that he may have spent some time at durmstrang when he disapeared after killing Hepzibah Smith. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

This is a very interesting thread. My thoughts on the matters are that Grindewald could have mentored Tom. In the horcrux bit, I believe that like hermione Tom devoured almost every book in the library and that is where he discovered the word horcrux but having no explanation of it went to professor slughorn to learn more about it.

This i have to disagree with, riddle obviously knew what a horcrux was, because dumbledore himself says he wasnt looking to slughorn for information but for an opinion as to wether 7 horcruxes could be made, and if they could would they be powerful.

I really think that this is stretching a little too far, and too extraneous to the plot. I think that the function that Grindelwald plays in these novels is to show that evil has and always will exist, and the battle will keep needing to be faught. Where Voldemort is Harry's battle, Grindelwald was Dumbledore's.

This i have to disagree with, riddle obviously knew what a horcrux was, because dumbledore himself says he wasnt looking to slughorn for information but for an opinion as to wether 7 horcruxes could be made, and if they could would they be powerful.Voldemort demanded not once, but three times to learn how a Horcrux was made. Going into that conversation, Voldemort knew that Horcruxes could (in some way) make you immortal, and he presents himself as knowing that they had something to do with putting a piece of soul in an object. (He might have been affecting that last part to put Slughorn at ease.)

However, Voldemort did not know how one tore the soul, nor did he know that spell for encasing a fragment of soul in something.


I really think that this is stretching a little too far, and too extraneous to the plot. I think that the function that Grindelwald plays in these novels is to show that evil has and always will exist, and the battle will keep needing to be faught. Where Voldemort is Harry's battle, Grindelwald was Dumbledore's.Harry has to find two completely hidden Horcruxes. These will be in two places of personal importance to Voldemort but largely unknown to anyone else.

How does this relate to Grindelwald? Well, Grindelwald is the single most likely source of the Encasing spell that Voldemort needed to learn. This spell is extremely arcane Dark Magic, which means that the person with the single highest probability of both knowing the spell AND being willing to teach it to someone would be the biggest, baddest Dark Wizard of the time. That would be Grindelwald.

So, how could this be important? Well, suppose that Harry learns from Dumbledore's memories where Grindelwald dwelled. Suppose that Harry learns from Regulus' memories that Voldemort had met and learned some dark arts from Grindelwald. Mr. 1, meet Mr. 1: and let's go to #2, a very plausible Horcrux hiding place: and one that could not be discovered by either Dumbledore's or Regulus' knowledge alone.

I could be wrong, but this just might be relevant to the plot........

I don't think that he directly mentored Tom, but Riddle could have studied Grindelwald's history to see where he made his "mistakes". By seeing what worked or didn't work, Riddle could have used that information in his own plans for world domination. If Grindelwald made a horcrux, then Tom would have learned that he needed more than one.

this is a very thought provoking thread. i had thought about dd knowing things about dark magic because of his defeat of grindelwald and that perhaps that had something to do with how much he knew of voldy's doings and movements, but i never realized that the timeline fell into place quite like that. after seeing the dates like that, i have to agree that it seems very likely that they would have at least had some form of contact, probably some mentoring.

On where he found grindewald according to the lexicon Grindewald is a place in switzerland and this may be where he found him. The other possibility is that he may have spent some time at durmstrang when he disapeared after killing Hepzibah Smith. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

as far as where goes, it has been my experience that evil finds evil. if a say highschool student is looking to hang out in the "wrong" crowd or be at the "wrong" place, they usually find a place. and i don't think it would have been that hard for tom to find grindy. however, my problem with the after smith's death part would be that her murder would have been a while after tom graduated, which means that by this point grindy has already been defeated. but durmstrang is an interesting theory. it has been my opinion that harry, now going to be of age and able to apparate, will do a bit of traveling in this book. i suppose we will have to wait and see...

If Grindelwald made a horcrux, then Tom would have learned that he needed more than one.Voldemort decided to make six Horcruxes before Grindelwald was defeated.

this is a very thought provoking thread. i had thought about dd knowing things about dark magic because of his defeat of grindelwald and that perhaps that had something to do with how much he knew of voldy's doings and movements, but i never realized that the timeline fell into place quite like that. after seeing the dates like that, i have to agree that it seems very likely that they would have at least had some form of contact, probably some mentoring.Grindelwald probably had one piece of information that Voldemort wanted: the spell for making a Horcrux.

As for Dumbledore, he probably knew these things because of his great theoretical knowledge. It is possible that he did not actually know the Horcrux spell itself: after all, why would he need to know it?

however, my problem with the after smith's death part would be that her murder would have been a while after tom graduated, which means that by this point grindy has already been defeated.Grindelwald was still at large in the summer of 1944. Voldemort had decided that he wanted to learn how to make Horcruxes by the spring of 1944. So, Voldemort had all of his summer to find Grindelwald. As Voldemort was 17, he could freely apparate wherever he needed to go.

it has been my opinion that harry, now going to be of age and able to apparate, will do a bit of traveling in this book. i suppose we will have to wait and see...True, but he almost certainly will be travelling a bit. Rowling did not make 17 year olds legal adults without reason.....

however, my problem with the after smith's death part would be that her murder would have been a while after tom graduated, which means that by this point grindy has already been defeated

JK rowling has never been quite clear on what actually happened to Grindelwald. If you take defeated to mean killed, then you are completely right, but we know that in the magical world there are a lot of other things that defeated could mean. e.g. stripped of all magical power, turned into a fragment of soul like Voldemort was. This could mean that he could continue giving Voldemort inormation in the years after his "defeat"

JK rowling has never been quite clear on what actually happened to Grindelwald. If you take defeated to mean killed, then you are completely right, but we know that in the magical world there are a lot of other things that defeated could mean. e.g. stripped of all magical power, turned into a fragment of soul like Voldemort was. This could mean that he could continue giving Voldemort inormation in the years after his "defeat"

that's very true. i suppose he could be living on some unknown island drinking sweet tea and lying in the sun even now...but, yeah, you're right. the wording is suspicious, he could have been so magically "disabled" after dd was through with him that he was defeated and no longer a threat, but still alive. although i'd think he'd be a threat as long as he could still pollute young minds, but hindsight's 20/20.

Grindelwald probably had one piece of information that Voldemort wanted: the spell for making a Horcrux.

i agree that the horcrux spell would be his most desired knowledge, but anything else you could learn along the way would probably be nice, plus any other contacts or dark wizards he could talk to. we know that tommy enjoyed learning. i think he would have first and foremost wanted the horcrux spell, but also wanted to gain as much information on the dark arts as possible. then, using the information he had, he would go on to disappear and begin his experiments.

Grindelwald was still at large in the summer of 1944. Voldemort had decided that he wanted to learn how to make Horcruxes by the spring of 1944. So, Voldemort had all of his summer to find Grindelwald. As Voldemort was 17, he could freely apparate wherever he needed to go.

yes, but we know he began working at borgin and burkes when he left hogwarts. and, based on the impression i've always gotten from the memory, he'd probably been working there for quite a bit of time before the memory; smith treats him like he's been doing business with her for a while by that point. and it's after he kills her and leaves b&b that he disappears off the map to perform his experiments. i just don't think after her quite fits the timeline. plus, if he got the spell from grindy and he made at least the ring horcrux while in school, he would have to have been in contact with grindy before he ever graduates.

This is a very intesting idea. JKR did kind of hint that Grindelwald may be important in the final book, so it's an interesting thought that he and Riddle may have worked together before he was defeated. Judging from the timeline provided by Wimsey, I suppose he could have used his summer vacation to locate Grindelwald, though that would have meant he was actively seeking him out for advice. Grindelwald probably had one piece of information that Voldemort wanted: the spell for making a Horcrux.It does seem likely that Grindelwald might have made a horcrux, but I don't think we know for sure if he had knowledge of the horcrux spell. If so, that would be a strong motivator for Riddle to seek Grindelwald out. In any case, Riddle could just as easily encountered Grindelwald during the time he disappeared and went through all those transformations.

I think that it is also interesting to pose the question of where did Grindelwald go to school? We have not heard of anything regarding him being at Hogwarts, and Durmstrang would be a very likely candidate.

This is a very intesting idea. JKR did kind of hint that Grindelwald may be important in the final book, so it's an interesting thought that he and Riddle may have worked together before he was defeated. Judging from the timeline provided by Wimsey, I suppose he could have used his summer vacation to locate Grindelwald, though that would have meant he was actively seeking him out for advice. It does seem likely that Grindelwald might have made a horcrux, but I don't think we know for sure if he had knowledge of the horcrux spell. If so, that would be a strong motivator for Riddle to seek Grindelwald out. In any case, Riddle could just as easily encountered Grindelwald during the time he disappeared and went through all those transformations.

I think Grindelwald probably did have a horcrux which is why Dumbledore is familiar with them and why "he's particularly fierce about" the subject being banned from Hogwarts. Maybe Tom did learn the spell from Grindelwald somehow but then took it upon himself to inquire Slughorn for his opinion of multiple horcruxes. I agree that Grindelwald may have been defeated by being left in a powerless state, but he could still pass on knowledge.

I was just re-reading the HP series over the last few weeks, and an interesting pattern hit me: over the course of the books never is Voldemort refered to as "The darkest Wizard of all time" or "The worst wizard the world has ever seen" It is always something like "The most powerful dark wizard for a century" or "The most evil wizard alive"
I think this hints to an even worse person in the history of magic, and Jo definately seems to be hiding something about Grindelwald...
Just a thought

While I think it's probable that Riddle went out looking for information and possibly found it out from Grindewald, I don't think he mentored Riddle in the way we might think. We know Riddle was extremely independent and wanted to become the most powerful wizard who ever lived. I just don't think he respects any other wizard enough to learn quite a bit from them or apprentice himself with them.

Well, other than DD, who knows Riddle's true nature, which I think is what he is more afraid of than DD the person, imo.

Grindelwald was defeated, but was he killed?

I don't know if he was killed, but he is definitely dead.

I think Gindelwald did have somethig that Tom Riddle wanted; some information about horcruxes. I can't see Grindelwald mentoring Tom, just doesn't seem to fit his fierce independent streak. I think Tom used the same tactic he used on everyone else to get what he wanted; charm.

I think Gindelwald did have somethig that Tom Riddle wanted; some information about horcruxes. I can't see Grindelwald mentoring Tom, just doesn't seem to fit his fierce independent streak. I think Tom used the same tactic he used on everyone else to get what he wanted; charm.


I agree that a fully powerful Grindelwald isn't going to just give over his information on horcruxes. Tom probably used charming or trickery to get what he wanted (this is assuming they met, of course).

Voldemort is shown as someone who appreciates true talent and evil. It would make sense that Grindelwald was the same, and saw potential in Tom, taking him on as an apprentice. I doubt that charm would work on someone who is possibly the most evil wizard of all time.

Voldemort is shown as someone who appreciates true talent and evil. It would make sense that Grindelwald was the same, and saw potential in Tom, taking him on as an apprentice. I doubt that charm would work on someone who is possibly the most evil wizard of all time.

yes, as, if this is the case, it was probably becoming more and more apparent to grindy that he might not make it much longer. dd was no doubt coming closer and training a successor would be a nice way to get back at dd.

How about Tom finding 'notes' that Grindelwald had left behind?

There had to be some reason he was gone for 10 years - learning 1 spell wouldn't take THAT long. Of course it might have taken quite awhile to 'charm' Grindelwald into giving him the spell IF Grindlewald was alive as some de-magictised muggle. Brings up shades of the stories of Nazi leaders hiding in S. America.

I can see how after a few years of being a muggle, Grindelwald would appreciate a 'groupie' - might start teaching Tom after HE had been charming for a few years. Time consuming - but a good possibility.

This idea I can live with - I can't see Grindelwald teaching Tom anyhting while he was powerful - but after he was defeated and apparently 'forgotten'? Oh yeah! I can see it then.

Wouldn't it be interesting if it turns out Voldy killed Grindelwald to use for a horcrux after he learned all he could from him?

Wouldn't it be interesting if it turns out Voldy killed Grindelwald to use for a horcrux after he learned all he could from him?

Yeah, because this death would be of great significance to Voldie, and killing a more powerful wizard makes a more powerful horcrux right?

i think that makes sense. srry i'm not postin more....

Yeah, because this death would be of great significance to Voldie, and killing a more powerful wizard makes a more powerful horcrux right?

I agree with the first half - but I thought that all horcruxes were essentially "equal". I could be wrong - the diary provides some evidence of this - but I guess I don't know whether different horcruxes have different power.
I do definately agree that if LV killed Grindelwald after getting information from him, then he may have considered making a horcrux out of it - the student surpassing the master, so to say.

Yes that is a brilliant idea. I think it is entirely feasible that it will be when he made a horcrux.

Yeah, because this death would be of great significance to Voldie, and killing a more powerful wizard makes a more powerful horcrux right?

the first part, perhaps, but the second, i dunno. i think since it's a piece of your soul encased in the object and it's your magic that protects it when you hide it, it wouldn't matter who was murdered, just that they were. the murders were sentimentally significant to tommy, but the fact that one of them was (most likely) made using the death of his muggle father wouldn't make it any less powerful of a horcrux, in my opinion. the horcrux part is all on the one making it. but this is treading on the ground of a different thread i'm on...anyhoo, yeah, i suppose it's feasible that he killed grindy and made a horcrux, and it's certainly cruel and twisted enough to be voldy's work, and it would be significant...but i dunno...certainly thought provoking...

i just don't think after her quite fits the timeline. plus, if he got the spell from grindy and he made at least the ring horcrux while in school, he would have to have been in contact with grindy before he ever graduates.What is wrong with that? Why would Grindelwald care whether or not Riddle had graduated from Hogwarts? Indeed, if Grindelwald and Dumbledore were personal enemies (which, given the stature of both wizards, seems probable), then wouldn't it please Grindelwald to teach one of Dumbledore's students?

It does seem likely that Grindelwald might have made a horcrux, but I don't think we know for sure if he had knowledge of the horcrux spell. If so, that would be a strong motivator for Riddle to seek Grindelwald out. In any case, Riddle could just as easily encountered Grindelwald during the time he disappeared and went through all those transformations.Grindelwald was defeated before then, so presumably he was out of circulation.

And, yes, we do not know that Grindelwald knew the spell. However, as the single greatest Dark Wizard of his age, he is the individual with the single highest probability of knowing the spell and the single highest probability of being willing to teach it.

There had to be some reason he was gone for 10 years - learning 1 spell wouldn't take THAT long. Of course it might have taken quite awhile to 'charm' Grindelwald into giving him the spell IF Grindlewald was alive as some de-magictised muggle. Brings up shades of the stories of Nazi leaders hiding in S. America.There is no indication that wizards can lose magical powers a la Ged of the EarthSea stories. That should have been introduced by now.

As for what Voldemort was doing, he probably was learning more dark arts and searching for relics of Ravenclaw and Gryffindor.

This idea I can live with - I can't see Grindelwald teaching Tom anyhting while he was powerful - but after he was defeated and apparently 'forgotten'? Oh yeah! I can see it then.Why wouldn't Grindelwald teach it while powerful? Voldemort teaches his followers a lot of Dark Arts. Voldemort having a Horcrux is no skin off of Grindelwald's nose.


Yeah, because this death would be of great significance to Voldie, and killing a more powerful wizard makes a more powerful horcrux right?It was Dumbledore who defeated Grindelwald, not Voldemort. So, unless Voldemort visited Grindelwald in jail (and we do not even know if Grindy survived his defeat), this seems implausible!

I would suggest that people are on the right track here, otherwise. Voldemort could have travelled freely to see Grindelwald. Where ever he found Grindelwald might be the place where Voldemort hid a Horcrux.

If Rowling is (was) clever, then she could set this up so that Harry realizes this by combining information from Regulus and Dumbledore.


I agree with the first half - but I thought that all horcruxes were essentially "equal". I could be wrong - the diary provides some evidence of this - but I guess I don't know whether different horcruxes have different power.
I do definately agree that if LV killed Grindelwald after getting information from him, then he may have considered making a horcrux out of it - the student surpassing the master, so to say.I think that you are correct: a fragment of soul is a fragment of soul. Voldemort just likes the pomposity of it.

The Diary seems to have been unusual because it was mixed with memories.

What is wrong with that? Why would Grindelwald care whether or not Riddle had graduated from Hogwarts? Indeed, if Grindelwald and Dumbledore were personal enemies (which, given the stature of both wizards, seems probable), then wouldn't it please Grindelwald to teach one of Dumbledore's students?

sorry, you misunderstand me. i should have been more clear. i was referring to the timeline in which someone suggested that tommy went to look for and find grindy during his ten year disappearance. i meant that doesn't fit the timeline. if he got the horcrux spell from grindy, he had to get it while in school, which means he had to find and learn from grindy while in school. that means he couldn't have waited until he had graduated, worked at borgin & burke's, and killed smith before disappearing to find grindy. i completely agree; voldy probably first established contact and began learning from grindy while in school. sorry for the mix-up.

Yes but JK has worded this very carefully about grindelwald. She said that Dumbledore had defeated him but this may not mean dead. To Dumbledore this would not mean killing this may mean him losing his powers and being in Askaban. Another thing JK said in her interview with Emerson and Melissa was that he was dead but this could have been at another time. She also refused to collaborate and so could mean that there may be some background to come into play in DH.

i meant that doesn't fit the timeline. if he got the horcrux spell from grindy, he had to get it while in school, which means he had to find and learn from grindy while in school. Gotcha! Well, we know that he had a Horcrux before he disappeared (the Ring was hidden and Voldemort had flashing red eyes, the first sign of Horcrux damage). So, unless you add the assumption that Dumbledore was wrong about what caused Voldemort's transformation and why Voldemort quit wearing the ring, then you are absolutely correct.

Yes but JK has worded this very carefully about grindelwald. She said that Dumbledore had defeated him but this may not mean dead. To Dumbledore this would not mean killing this may mean him losing his powers and being in Askaban.Keep in mind that there is no way to strip a wizard or witch of his/her powers (at least insofar as we have been told) in Potterverse.

Regardless, Dumbledore would capture instead of kill if he could. So, unless Grindelwald refused to be taken alive, Dumbledore captured Grindy. (I'd say it's 50:50 that Grindy would not want to be taken alive: in other words, flip a coin!) However, somehow I doubt that wizards are allowed to teach much Dark Magic while in Azkaban.....

She also refused to collaborate and so could mean that there may be some background to come into play in DH.Indeed, many of us suspect that a Horcrux hiding place lurks in past interactions between Voldemort and Grindelwald.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_Dark_wizards_in_Harry_Potter#Grindelwald

"Grindelwald has something to do with the remaining plot. (TLC/MN interview) [1]"

Found that interesting, so I am led to believe your right if he has something to do with the remaining plot of the series.

Well, you are all right about how it couldn't be during the 10 years he disappeared IF his glint of red eyes when he saw the Slytherin Locket at Hezipiah's indicates he had already made a horcrux (and I think it does).

But we also have him asking Sluggy about horcruxes at the end of his 7th year ('45). So, he had to find out sometime between them. And I just don't see Grindelwald taking the time in the midst of a busy war - to teach someone who might try to replace him. I just cannot imagine a still powerful Grindelwald taking time out to teach before his defeat.

But if he still lived, then yes - after his defeat maybe.

I think it possible that he was able to get his hands on a book of Grindelwald's - possibly hand-written? Think of Lucius in bk2 getting rid of some of his 'dark' stuff at B&B. Perhaps that's a clue for this since Lucius had the Diary with him at the time? Maybe someone did the same with a book he found of Grindelwald's after the defeat? In which case the info would have just 'come' to Tom. Otherwise, perhaps he spent his weekends during his time at B&B researching just where to look for notes Grindelwaldleft behind?

Altho' I do like the idea of an exiled Grindelwald teaching Tom as a form of revenge at Albus. You know - head boy at Hogwarts goes 'dark'. Albus may never have trusted Tom, but the others did. Grindelwald might associate Tom with revenge on Albus.

Didn´t Dumbledor say something along the lines of ," And as far as Voldemort knows there was only one person who could split his soul in two..."

I strongly believe that he was referring to Grindelwald.

There are many ways to approach the enigma of Grindelwald, but I will take the simplest. Grindelwald is simply not somebody to worry about.

Firstly, we could say that he was a dark wizard who was connected to Vodemort in some way. That would appear to be the underlying theme of most of the posts in this topic. We know that DD defeated him (not specifically killed) a good while ago, and if DD battled him we can assume he was up to some degree of badness.

We could also call him the next Mark Evans; a passing remark gone awry, leaving JKR to make the solemn announcement that our fabulous theories are to no avail. Maybe Grindelwald is simply somebody to fill up space.

My version? You don't have to be evil to be up to no good. We know that criminal vagabonds exist in the wizarding world. Like Mundungus. But how about a Tom Riddle-esque intelligence meeting Dung-like greed? Somebody has to have attempted to Alohomora Fort Knox. Perhaps he messed a bit too much with Muggles?

All in all, I think we're taking him much to seriously, and he is simply stuff for future encyclopedias to cover.

P 500, US hardback:
"As far as I know - as far, I am sure, as Voldemort knew - no wizard had ever done more than tear his soul in two".

DD implies that other wizards had had horcruxes. We also know that DD was "particularly fierce" about the subject.

I think that somehow Tom Riddle got information from Grindelwald, but it was probably not from a height-of-his-powers Grindelwald. JK has said something to the effect that linking Grindelwald and WWII isn't a bad assumption, though Grindelwald wasn't Hitler. So we can assume he was a fairly powerful dark wizard.

It's more the topic of another thread, but I think that a valuable component of Grindelwald will be information (perhaps from Aberforth) of how DD defeated Grindelwald.

But we also have him asking Sluggy about horcruxes at the end of his 7th year ('45).

sixth year. and he already knew, according to dd, some about horcruxes. he just wanted to know if you could make more than one. and i think it was the summer between his sixth and seventh year that he found grindy.

And I just don't see Grindelwald taking the time in the midst of a busy war - to teach someone who might try to replace him. I just cannot imagine a still powerful Grindelwald taking time out to teach before his defeat.

i don't see a problem with him teaching tommy. voldy teaches his des things. and if grindy's half as arrogant as voldy, he would never have thought he could be defeated or replaced. but i think he would have liked the idea of a follower at hogwarts, right under dd's nose. plus, tommy's a charmer and a sweet-talker; i doubt he was going to waltz up to the one who could tell him the spell for horcruxes and just be like, hey mate. i'm here to take over when you're dead. plan to be the greatest dark lord ever, ya know. so, if you could just tell me the spell to make a horcrux, so i can make six and be completely immortal with the power of seven, that'd be great and i'll let you get back in time to be defeated by old dumbles over there... not so much. he was going to be interested and charming and ask the right questions until he got what he wanted.

This theory does make sense. I have a question though. Grindelwald wouldn't just tell anybody about Horcruxes. Voldemort would have had to make Grindelwald believe that he wouldn't tell anybody else and be very secretive etc. For this it seems that Voldemort would have had to swear to be one of Grindelwald's followers(Think about it, would Voldemort tell somebody who claims to be a dark-wizard-in-training his plans if he wasn't a Death Eater?[Yes, he's planning to be immortal so there's no need for that, but it's just an example.)]. But Voldemort doesn't like to follow, he likes to lead. And if he just pretended to be a follower and then left Grindelwald, why isn't Voldemort scared that his own followers will betray him?(Arrogance probably, but whatever).

sixth year. and he already knew, according to dd, some about horcruxes. he just wanted to know if you could make more than one. and i think it was the summer between his sixth and seventh year that he found grindy..Slughorn's memory takes place in Tom's 7th year - he specifically asked if the rumor that the DADA teacher was retiring was true. Slughorn suggests Tom would do better with a job at the Ministry. But Tom still applies for the DADA job directly out of school (which Albus convinces Dippet not to give him). After being turned down, he takes the B&B job. So - it was 7th year.

Also of importance - Tom was still wearing the ring in the memory - so IT has not been made into a horcrux yet. Albus said Tom was looking for an opinion about making MORE than one horcrux - but Tom also still asked Sluggy for the spell - so it would seem he didn't yet know how to make one.

Now Tom was a 5th year in '42-'43 (50 years before Harry's 2nd year in '92-'93) That means he finished Hogwarts in June'45. Hitler killed himself on April 30, 1945 and the war in Europe is over by mid-May or so. About a month BEFORE Tom has finished school

Where does that leave us? With Grindelwald probably defeated before Tom finishes Hogwarts. And a memory at the end of that school year where Tom's still trying to find out how to make a horcrux. Would Tom have had time during school and right before NEWTs to go apparate around Europe trying to find Grindelwald? Would Grindelwald even stop to listen to a british kid from Albus' school when he knows Albus is 'after him'? And lastly - yes Voldy has taught a few DEs a few things - but does anyone really think he has shared with any of them how to become immortal?

IF he gives away the secret, he might create his own nemesis for Waaaay past a normal lifetime. I really cannot see Grindelwald doing that either. I can only see him doing it in some kind of revenge on Albus and I only see that happening after his defeat. Besides, timing wise it's either after his defeat or Tom was meeting with him while he should have been noticed as missing from school.

I can see Tom searching for notes or books of Grindelwald's and getting it from there. And it must happen (I think) during the time period he was working at B&B - whether he found the info at B7B or had to go elsewhere for it.

I still think the end of a war would be a good time for Grindelwald supporters to be dumping 'dark' books. I'm betting that's exactly why he took such a lowly job.

Slughorn's memory takes place in Tom's 7th year - he specifically asked if the rumor that the DADA teacher was retiring was true. Slughorn suggests Tom would do better with a job at the Ministry. But Tom still applies for the DADA job directly out of school (which Albus convinces Dippet not to give him). After being turned down, he takes the B&B job. So - it was 7th year.

where does it say seventh? i can't find that it ever actually gives the years, just says mid-teens. and it hints that it's not his seventh because it says there were several boys in slug's office noticeably older than him. it also doesn't give an age that he murdered his father. and basing that on him wanting to apply for the dada job is flimsey. when tom asks, we know he's asking for the job, but slug's answer implies he thinks he's just asking. then he says tom will go far with his keen observation, says he'd make minister in 20 years, and says he's willing to help him in the ministry. but i just reread that passage and it sounds entirely like he's just doting upon a favorite student and bragging about him to the others, not implying he should go apply that year. plus, dd himself points out that the main reason for the discussion of horcruxes, what tommy actually wanted to know, was if it was possible to make more than one, not how. this implies he may have already communicated with grindy and possibly discovered the spell and made the diary, but he wanted to get additional information before making the ring.

Ok - you've got me - it could have been 6th year then. Altho' how one could tell that 7th years are noticably older than 6th....I don't see it

But I think we were pretty much told that Voldy killed his father and grandparents during the summer after 5th year. I'll probably be wrong about that too.

Despite the timing, I just cannot see Grindelwald teaching Tom how to become immortal. Tom's obviously a very bright wizard, giving him the secret to immortality is as good as setting up your own competition. I can see it as revenge on Albus, after he's been defeated, but not before. It doesn't make sense.

Of course, it wouldn't be the first time some evil genius has done something stupid - and we are told by Hermione that wizard's are rarely logical. So - maybe Grindelwald just didn't have an ounce of sense and did teach his replacement.

I found Voldemort's timeline in the Harry Potter Lexicon and according to this Slughorn gave him the information on Horcuxes in 1943. He killed his father and grandparents in the summer of 1942. He also constructed his diary horcrux in 1943 after getting the information from slughorn. The timeline also states that he had 1 more year at Hogwarts after making the diary horcrux. If this is the case then he had all of the summer of 1944 to find Grindewald aand learn from him.
The only thing I have a problem with is how did he get to europe if that is where he found him as I think you cannot apparate over sea or over long distances according to Hagrid

There are other ways of tansportation.... Like broom, i dont believe that magic carpets were outlawed yet... stuff like that. He could have even gone the muggle route and took a boat although i highly doubt it... who knows?

Ok - you've got me - it could have been 6th year then. Altho' how one could tell that 7th years are noticably older than 6th....I don't see it

But I think we were pretty much told that Voldy killed his father and grandparents during the summer after 5th year. I'll probably be wrong about that too.

no, i think he killed his dad the summer between fifth and sixth. i think that he might have made some contact with grindy at that point, since i think he made the diary and the ring the next year. i think that by the time he had the conversation with sluggy, he'd already made the diary. i think dd was right, he wanted to know if he could make more than one from sluggy. and he decided after that conversation that he could and made the ring. i think he probably spent the following summer and some time before working at b&b's with grindy, as a sort of student. then grindy was defeated and tommy found a job at nocturn alley. but that is of course where we will disagree, because i think tommy learned from him before he was defeated. i also take defeated to mean dead. and if not dead, as close as one can get without actually dying.

I found Voldemort's timeline in the Harry Potter Lexicon and according to this Slughorn gave him the information on Horcuxes in 1943. He killed his father and grandparents in the summer of 1942. He also constructed his diary horcrux in 1943 after getting the information from slughorn. The timeline also states that he had 1 more year at Hogwarts after making the diary horcrux. If this is the case then he had all of the summer of 1944 to find Grindewald aand learn from him.

very helpful. thanks. :)

There are other ways of tansportation.... Like broom, i dont believe that magic carpets were outlawed yet... stuff like that. He could have even gone the muggle route and took a boat although i highly doubt it... who knows?

i'd like to add portkeys, which is what i've always assumed they used. i figured the ministries used controlled portkeys out of the country.

Yes portkeys make sense too thanks for the options.

Maybe Grindewald went looking for LV from things i read it sounds possible because what if Grindewald started think his time might be up soon and he wanted to find another dark wizard to replace him. So is it a possibility that Grindewald went looking for LV!?!?!?!?!?!

Maybe Grindewald went looking for LV from things i read it sounds possible because what if Grindewald started think his time might be up soon and he wanted to find another dark wizard to replace him. So is it a possibility that Grindewald went looking for LV!?!?!?!?!?!

Unless our impression of Grindelwald is much mistaken, I don't think that Grindelwald would have sought out Tom Riddle. However, since we have so little information to go on, it's not out of the realm of possibility. I still picture Grindelwald as a big, bad dark wizard; who probably did not think his time was ever going to be up. Especially since I'm fairly convinced he had a horcrux, which is why DD was so fierce about banning the topic. But, this is all just guesswork, because of the lack of information we have :).

Yeah that's what I like about this thread, anything is possible because we have so little information, but we do know that there is something big coming concerning Grindy!

Yeah that's what I like about this thread, anything is possible because we have so little information, but we do know that there is something big coming concerning Grindy!Couldn't agree more :tu:

Unless our impression of Grindelwald is much mistaken, I don't think that Grindelwald would have sought out Tom Riddle. However, since we have so little information to go on, it's not out of the realm of possibility. I still picture Grindelwald as a big, bad dark wizard; who probably did not think his time was ever going to be up. Especially since I'm fairly convinced he had a horcrux, which is why DD was so fierce about banning the topic. But, this is all just guesswork, because of the lack of information we have :).

I don't think that he would have sought out Riddle either. I think that he was just before Riddles time at school. Dumbledore was teaching at Hogwarts then, and he probably had finished fighting Grindelwald before he started teaching at Hogwarts.

Dumbledore was teaching at Hogwarts then, and he probably had finished fighting Grindelwald before he started teaching at Hogwarts.

not according to timelines we've been given. grindy was defeated in 1945. if i'm not much mistaken, tommy graduated hogwarts in 44. and dumbles fights voldy while working as headmaster. i think he'd have fought him no matter where he was working. work situations don't seem to affect dd's fighting much, in fact.

I think Grindewald may have given Riddle some ideas -- not the least of which was a healthy dose of respect for Dumbledore's abilities. There's not too much we know about this wizard except the date of his demise -- and that if Tom Riddle had aspirations of becoming a great sorcerer, he had to overcome whatever weaknesses that Grindewald had succumbed to -- and Dumbledore was only one of the obstacles to his rise to Becoming The Ultimate Very Bad Person.

Was Voldemort ever mentioned on a Chocolate Frog card, by the way? :lol:

not according to timelines we've been given. grindy was defeated in 1945. if i'm not much mistaken, tommy graduated hogwarts in 44. and dumbles fights voldy while working as headmaster. i think he'd have fought him no matter where he was working. work situations don't seem to affect dd's fighting much, in fact.

It doesn't change your conclusion at all, but DD was the transfiguration teacher at the time of GrindelWar. Dippett was the headmaster. I could be wrong, but I think it was roughly 10-11 years after Tom Riddle left that Dippett was no longer headmaster (judging by McGonagall's tenure at Hogwarts, and assuming that McGonagall took over for DD directly).

He also constructed his diary horcrux in 1943 after getting the information from slughorn. This probably is not correct. Voldemort made the magical Diary after the events of his 5th year, and very possibly before he spoke to Slughorn. We have no idea when he turned the Diary into a Horcrux: remember, from what Dumbledore says it was a Diary first, then a Horcrux later.

The only thing I have a problem with is how did he get to europe if that is where he found him as I think you cannot apparate over sea or over long distances according to HagridHagrid never said that. He said that he couldn't!

Unless our impression of Grindelwald is much mistaken, I don't think that Grindelwald would have sought out Tom Riddle. However, since we have so little information to go on, it's not out of the realm of possibility. I still picture Grindelwald as a big, bad dark wizard; who probably did not think his time was ever going to be up. Especially since I'm fairly convinced he had a horcrux, which is why DD was so fierce about banning the topic. But, this is all just guesswork, because of the lack of information we have.It could have been both: mentors recruit pupils as well as vice-versa. However, Voldemort needed to find someone who both could and would teach the spell. Grindelwald is the single best candidate for that person.

Of course, who the person is that taught Voldemort this spell has to be important: surely the place where this happen merits some momento: like, say, a few cursed traps, maybe an undead thing or two, and a piece of soul in a Cup or something from Ravenclaw or Gryffindor.

Also,, am I right in thinking that Tom's query to Slughorn was about making multiple horcruxes, not just about how to make one.

I believe Tom's primary intent was to find out whether multiple horcruxes were possible, and whether it would make him stronger. Slughorn, to the best of our knowledge, did not tell Tom about the existance of "horcruxes", nor did he tell him how to make one. Grindelwald remains the only named wizard who is likely to have given Tom Riddle that knowledge (this is to the best of my knowledge - I don't know if any wizards-of-the-month on JK's page could have done so).

Grindelwald could have also inadvertantly given Tom Riddle this information in any number of ways, or it could have been deliberate. My own opinion is that Tom Riddle found out what he needed to know without Grindelwald knowing that he'd done so. I'm just not creative enough to really outline the "how" :).

Also,, am I right in thinking that Tom's query to Slughorn was about making multiple horcruxes, not just about how to make one.You are correct, Voldemort asked both. Voldemort asked not once but twice how to one tears one's soul. He then asked how the piece of soul was affixed to an object. Harry could tell that Voldemort was getting knowledge that he had dearly watned for a while when he got that information.

The funny thing is that Voldemort actually did not get explicit confirmation that he could make 2+ Horcruxes. Slughorn provided tacit confirmation by not saying that you could not do it, but the only real information that Sluggy provided was the general principle of how to make a Horcrux.

Voldemort clearly had no exact idea how to do it, however. At most, he knew that involved something to do with the soul.

I believe Tom's primary intent was to find out whether multiple horcruxes were possible, and whether it would make him stronger. Slughorn, to the best of our knowledge, did not tell Tom about the existance of "horcruxes", nor did he tell him how to make one.Actually, Sluggy did tell Voldemort "how" in the general sense. Voldemort did not know how the soul was torn, nor did he know to affix the soul fragment to something. (Voldemort asked twice to get the first piece of information, and Harry could telly how eager Voldemort was for the information.)

Grindelwald could have also inadvertantly given Tom Riddle this information in any number of ways, or it could have been deliberate. My own opinion is that Tom Riddle found out what he needed to know without Grindelwald knowing that he'd done so. I'm just not creative enough to really outline the "how" :).It is hard to see how this could have been accidental! Clearly there are Dark Wizards who are willing to teach things like this: otherwise, the spell would have been lost to antiquity. The real alternative is that Voldemort rederived the spell from his theoretical knowledge. However, the fact that he had a Horcrux by his early 20's suggests that he learned it.

The funny thing is that Voldemort actually did not get explicit confirmation that he could make 2+ Horcruxes. Slughorn provided tacit confirmation by not saying that you could not do it, but the only real information that Sluggy provided was the general principle of how to make a Horcrux.

actually, dumbles suggests otherwise:

"You heard Voldemort: What he particularly wanted from Horace was an opinion on what would happen to the wizard who created more than one Horcrux, what would happen to the wizard so determined to evade death that he would be prepared to murder many times, rip his soul repeatedly, so as to store it in many, separately concealed Horcruxes. No book would have given him that information. As far as I know -- as far, I am sure, as Voldemort knew -- no wizard had ever done more than tear his soul in two."

dd suggests that he was more interested in how many he could make, which implies that he actually knew some about horcruxes before he asked. he had to have learned the term somewhere, and, like dd implied, he may have gotten a hold of books outside hogwarts, but there was no way any of them would have told him if he could make more than one.

actually, dumbles suggests otherwise:

"You heard Voldemort: What he particularly wanted from Horace was an opinion on what would happen to the wizard who created more than one Horcrux, what would happen to the wizard so determined to evade death that he would be prepared to murder many times, rip his soul repeatedly, so as to store it in many, separately concealed Horcruxes. No book would have given him that information. As far as I know -- as far, I am sure, as Voldemort knew -- no wizard had ever done more than tear his soul in two."That does not contradict what I wrote at all. I noted that although Voldemort did learn from Slughorn the basics of how a Horcrux was made, Voldemort did not get explicit confirmation from Slughorn that you could make multiple Horcruxes. At best, Slughorn weakly corroborates it by not saying that you could not do it.

Nothing in what Dumbledore says suggests that he thought that Voldemort knew how to make a Horcrux prior to that. What it does say is that Voldemort was interested in a means of immortality that could implement the number 7.

dd suggests that he was more interested in how many he could make, which implies that he actually knew some about horcruxes before he asked. he had to have learned the term somewhere, and, like dd implied, he may have gotten a hold of books outside hogwarts, but there was no way any of them would have told him if he could make more than one.Voldemort might have known that a Horcrux involves hiding part of the soul. When Slughorn basically defines a Horcrux, Voldemort's reply is "I don't quite understand how that works." At face value, this suggest that he does know that a Horcrux involves part of a soul, although it also is possible that Voldemort is trying to put Slughorn at ease by showing that he already had some of the forbidden knowledge and thus making the conversation a little more, well, conversational. Harry could tell then, already, that Voldemort was extremely excited at this point.

After Slughorn fails to really answer the tacit question, Voldemort asks flat out: How do you split your soul? with a hungry greedy look. Slughorn doesn't answer: he goes on about how a soul is supposed to remain intact. Voldemort does not desist: he asks again, how do you do it?

So, Voldemort effectively asks three times: ones tacitly, and twice explicitly. Slughorn finally relents, and notes that the soul is torn by murder, and that the wizard then encases the soul fragment. Voldemort then utters a single word question: "Encase?" before following with a sentence fragment question: "But how?" Slughorn says that it is a spell, but he also tells Voldemort not to bother asking, as he does not know it.

So, again, the conversation shows Voldemort ruthlessly corralling Slughorn into provide the basic information about Horcruxes. Yes, Voldemort goes on to ask if it would not be better to have multiple Horcruxes. But Slughorn's only response there is, isn't it bad enough to talk about doing it once? Although Slughorn confirms that Horcruxes are real and, after much badgering, provides Voldemort with the basic information on how to make one, he (Slughorn) does not actually confirm that multiple Horcruxes are possible.


So, Dumbledore's statement and mine are fully consistent. Voldemort was particular interested in multiple Horcruxes. But he was also extremely interested in how. You do not ask a highly sensitive question three times if you already know the answer.


This leaves us with Voldemort knowing in his sixth year that he could make at least one Horcrux, and knowing the basics of how. Indeed, as he already had murdered 3 (or possibly 4 if you counted Myrtle) people, he was already halfway there. However, he did not know the spell for encasing, only that such a spell existed. He did not actually get confirmation that he could make multiple Horcruxes, but Slughorn did not stomp on the idea either. Harry noted early that Voldemort was extremely eager for just the basic information. Short of the spell and explicit conversation that one could make any number of Horcruxes, Voldemort got everything he wanted that night.

So, where to from there? Well, summer break is coming: Voldemort is 17, he no doubt got his apparition license on the first go, and there was a big bad Dark Wizard named Grindelwald out there who would not be brought to justice until sometime during or after Voldemort's 7th year.

Of course, who the person is that taught Voldemort this spell has to be important: surely the place where this happen merits some momento: like, say, a few cursed traps, maybe an undead thing or two, and a piece of soul in a Cup or something from Ravenclaw or Gryffindor.

If Grindelwald taught Voldemort about making a horcrux, then he must have had one himself. Dumbledore defeated him and destroyed the horcrux. Voldemort would have known this and this is probably an added reason why Voldemort was so afraid of Dumbledore (and wanted him killed even before he resumed his plans to kill Harry). He knew Dumbledore could suspect/find out and perhaps destroy his horcruxes and Voldemort probably thought Dumbledore's existence was a highly possible threat to maintaining his great secret.

One thing that I think Voldemort did about finding out about horcruxes is that he lived in London and had access to lots of dark places like knockturn alley and especially Borgin and Burkes. Maybe he spent a lot of time there during the summer holidays.

It is hard to see how this could have been accidental! Clearly there are Dark Wizards who are willing to teach things like this: otherwise, the spell would have been lost to antiquity. The real alternative is that Voldemort rederived the spell from his theoretical knowledge. However, the fact that he had a Horcrux by his early 20's suggests that he learned it.

What I meant here was simply that Tom Riddle learned the required spell by investigations while near Grindelwald. In my scenario, Grindelwald could have tought him a few tricks (not including horcruxes), and Tom being a clever wizard, he figured out the horcrux thing on his own from clues Grindelwald left behind. Or, he could have found the source of Grindelwald's knowledge - after all, we have no indication that Grindelwald invented the horcrux spell (in fact, we have a fair amount of evidence that it predated Grindelwald), so Grindelwald also would have had to learn the spell from somewhere.

Third alternative (which I actually rather like, now that I think of it): Grindelwald may have learned how to make a horcrux from another, unknown wizard. Tom Riddle could have come to Grindelwald and learned the identity of this wizard (with or without Grindelwald realizing he'd divulged this information). He could then have gone to this wizard and learned what he needed to know.

I have given this question thought before. I think Grindelwald has some kind of importance in HP. I do not necessarily believe Grindelwald was Tom Riddle's mentor similar to Dumbledore's relation to Harry, but I do think Grindelwald had some knowledge about Horcruxes and eventually Tom Riddle found out the process of making one from him. Considering the timeline of events, it is hard to know how Riddle might have corresponded with Grindelwald, but knowing him I would not be surprised if Tom Riddle went looking for the latter. It was his goal to separate himself from mortals and we know the former Voldemort would have done anything to achieve it.

In HBP Dumbledore says "Voldemort went further down the path to immortality than any wizard before him" I think if Dumbledore knew that someone else had created a Horcrux he would pursue the knowledge, unless that is he already knew, (As in he had to destrroy it) in which case this could be a very plausible memory in the penseive

In HBP Dumbledore says "Voldemort went further down the path to immortality than any wizard before him"

Maybe Grindelwald knew how to make Horcruxes but Voldemort actually did it - which would explain the part about Voldemort going down the path more significantly than any other wizard. Or the fact that Voldemort created seven Horcruxes was what Dumbledore meant. Any other wizard, Grindelwald is who I am thinking of, could have made one or two (which is what I assumed from Slughorn's conversation with Tom Riddle). But Voldemort went futher down by creating seven!

In HBP Dumbledore says "Voldemort went further down the path to immortality than any wizard before him" I think if Dumbledore knew that someone else had created a Horcrux he would pursue the knowledge, unless that is he already knew, (As in he had to destrroy it) in which case this could be a very plausible memory in the penseive

Yes that is brilliant. This may definitely come into play in the next book. Do you think Harry will be able to figure this out?

If Grindelwald taught Voldemort about making a horcrux, then he must have had one himself.Not necessarily. Just because someone knows how to do something, it does not follow that someone wants to do it. I personally know of multiple ways to make a bomb. I never have actually done so because, well, I don't want a bomb and I never have wanted one. Wanting to know something and wanting that something are two very different things!

That being said, great minds seek knowledge. Slughorn obliquely refers to this: wizards of a certain caliber are drawn to the dark arts. Sluggy knows the basics, even though the thought of a Horcrux mortifies him.

What I meant here was simply that Tom Riddle learned the required spell by investigations while near Grindelwald. In my scenario, Grindelwald could have tought him a few tricks (not including horcruxes), and Tom being a clever wizard, he figured out the horcrux thing on his own from clues Grindelwald left behind.I would think that magic touching upon the theory of souls would be more than "a few tricks." Remember, this is theoretically very advanced magic that must require an excellent understanding of how magic works and of the magical properties of the things involved.

Or, he could have found the source of Grindelwald's knowledge - after all, we have no indication that Grindelwald invented the horcrux spell (in fact, we have a fair amount of evidence that it predated Grindelwald), so Grindelwald also would have had to learn the spell from somewhere. Add to that list some now deceased Dark Wizard! However, keep in mind that Rowling is a very Chekovian writer, forward and backwards. She would have put that gun on the wall, even if it looked like wainscotting at the time. Even just a mention in a History Class would do. Remember, even if Harry forgets the names, we do read about them at the time: Rowling has done this several times before. Never has she had Harry learn something only to have Hermione tell him "we learned about that during X" without Rowling having included that X.

Third alternative (which I actually rather like, now that I think of it): Grindelwald may have learned how to make a horcrux from another, unknown wizard. Tom Riddle could have come to Grindelwald and learned the identity of this wizard (with or without Grindelwald realizing he'd divulged this information). He could then have gone to this wizard and learned what he needed to know.That starts to make the potential plot convoluted. Remember, the only reason why this might be important is because of where Voldemort learned the Encasing spell. The exact details are unimportant to Harry Potter's story (even if some fans would love to read them!) Like the Cave, Shack and Chamber, Voldemort would seriously consider hallowing (just to choose a synonym at random :cool:) the place where he learned the Encasing spell with one of his precious Horcruxes. This location, Harry could infer. But what if Riddle simply went to Grindelwald and then learned where to go? What possible record would there be of where that was? It would be very difficult for Rowling to come up with a solution that did not seem to be completely contrived. It also would start to read like a typical fantasy tale of one adventure followed by another, i.e., all plot and not story. Rowling has avoided this so far: I think that she means to do so to the end.

On the other hand, just having Harry work out that Voldemort probably learned the spell from Grindelwald, and then learning where Voldemort likely met Grindelwald would provide a nice, unconvoluted, wholey consistent plot that would not raise many eyebrows. (This is/was Rowling's biggest challenge: having Harry figure out two Horcrux hiding places faster than Dumbledore did without writing an idiot plot for Dumbledore or a deus ex machina plot for Harry!)

Yes that is brilliant. This may definitely come into play in the next book. Do you think Harry will be able to figure this out?This is where Rowling must be clever, and also where R.A.B. might be important. Rowling cannot demean and diminish Dumbledore's character by making the 4th or 5th Horcruxes hidden some place that Dumbledore should have inferred. How to do this? Simple. Have Regulus' knowledge provide one important piece of the puzzle and Dumbledore's knowledge provide the other important piece.

Remember, Reg. would have had access to older Death Eaters and thus access to sources who would not speak to Dumbledore. Suppose that Reg. learned that Voldemort had met Grindelwald: indeed, he might very well have told his school chums about it. The Notts, Averys, etc., would never divulge this to a trumped up Muggle-lover like Dumbledore, but they might divulge it to a quality person like Regulus Black.

Now, suppose that Dumbledore's memories tell Harry where Grindelwald dwelt. Perhaps they even include information suggesting that Grindelwald had a Horcrux. At this point, Harry has enough pieces to put something together that neither Regulus nor Dumbledore could have put together quickly on their own: where Voldemort likely learned the encasing spell.

This is where Rowling must be clever, and also where R.A.B. might be important. Rowling cannot demean and diminish Dumbledore's character by making the 4th or 5th Horcruxes hidden some place that Dumbledore should have inferred. How to do this? Simple. Have Regulus' knowledge provide one important piece of the puzzle and Dumbledore's knowledge provide the other important piece.

Remember, Reg. would have had access to older Death Eaters and thus access to sources who would not speak to Dumbledore. Suppose that Reg. learned that Voldemort had met Grindelwald: indeed, he might very well have told his school chums about it. The Notts, Averys, etc., would never divulge this to a trumped up Muggle-lover like Dumbledore, but they might divulge it to a quality person like Regulus Black.

Now, suppose that Dumbledore's memories tell Harry where Grindelwald dwelt. Perhaps they even include information suggesting that Grindelwald had a Horcrux. At this point, Harry has enough pieces to put something together that neither Regulus nor Dumbledore could have put together quickly on their own: where Voldemort likely learned the encasing spell.

exactly. i think harry's biggest advantage will come down to his resources. he has different resources at hand then dd did. not better or worse, just different. and that will be important. it could be something as simple as harry, when looking at some old stuff of reggie's after figuring out the rab clue, stumbles in passing across the name grindelwald, and thinks it sounds familiar. that may be when hermione explains very melodramatically something she read out of hogwarts: a history ("honestly, don't you two read??") about dd's fight against grindy and harry gets the idea to question the portrait or finds a memory or something and finds out where grindy operated from. and from there the trio discovers a horcrux and saves the day. i don't think when harry finds the horcruxes it will be any kind of proof that he's smarter or faster or better than dumbles. but dd was operating pretty much on his own and harry has ron and hermione and different resources. plus, dd has laid the groundwork for harry. part of what took so long was tracking down things and working off suspicions and trying to piece the puzzle together. but harry doesn't have to do that. he knows, for the most part, what he's looking for and he's got some advice on where to find them. at any rate, i've strayed a little off topic. but i think grindy will be important because info on him could lead to a horcrux of tommy, and a memory or two of dd's could be just what helps get harry there.

Ah, how easy it is to forget one of the most important rules regarding Harry Potter: it's JK's world, and we're all just playing in it. If JK does reveal how Tom Riddle learned about how to make a horcrux, then my little theories up above were probably wayyy too elaborate. Must...remember...occum's...razor (the simplest explanation is probably the best one).

If JK doesn't choose to divulge "how" Tom Riddle found out how to make a horcrux, then my theory(s) are a bit more realistic. I agree that it doesn't make sense in a literary fashion to introduce a convoluted plot, late, when a simple one would do just as well.

On the other hand, just having Harry work out that Voldemort probably learned the spell from Grindelwald, and then learning where Voldemort likely met Grindelwald would provide a nice, unconvoluted, wholey consistent plot that would not raise many eyebrows. But doesn't Harry have to take one more step? He needs to think that Voldemort would choose that location to hide a horcrux.

Couldn't Dumbledore have thought that the location of where Voldemort learned the horcrux spell would be important enough to be a horcrux location? If Dumbledore suspected the location, but could not find it, then there should be a message, memory, etc indicating that.

But doesn't Harry have to take one more step? He needs to think that Voldemort would choose that location to hide a horcrux.

Couldn't Dumbledore have thought that the location of where Voldemort learned the horcrux spell would be important enough to be a horcrux location? If Dumbledore suspected the location, but could not find it, then there should be a message, memory, etc indicating that.

perhaps, but, as i said before, the difference between harry's search and dd's search is going to be a matter of resources. dd was probably the greatest wizard of the age. he had all kinds of connections, could make all kinds of hypotheses on voldy, and had mountainous amounts of information at his fingertips. on the other hand, dd worked mainly alone until the very end, and, other than short battles, i don't believe had had much contact with voldy in years. then there's harry. doesn't think he has much as far as connections or ability to infer things about dd, but he has ron and hermione helping him. as a tag team, they make up for each others' weaknesses and fill in where the other leaves off. plus, harry has spoken with a deranged version of a power hungry teenage tommy, been inside voldy's head, and was there for voldy's return to power. plus, harry has now seen all the memories and raw information dd had to go off of. the difference will come that harry will have a different perspective on things, possibly new ideas based on his perspective, and may come up with things, based on information he has that dd did not so readily have available to him. so, i think it's possible to suspect that harry could find a horcrux or something of importance at least where tommy and grindy perhaps met and tommy learned. it wouldn't be because dd didn't look, because i'm sure that (if tommy did learn from grindy and grindy had had a horcrux that dd had to destroy) dd would have investigated that after his suspicions of voldy's horcrux experiments became more evident. but harry may gain a piece of information as to the whereabouts through a means dd did not have access to, and thus dd never discovered it. i don't think it's that dd is not as great as harry; they just have two different perspectives and sets of resources available to them...if that makes any sense...but, yeah, it could be a memory or something of dd's that sparks a thought in one of the trio's heads and they use there abilities to find it.

But doesn't Harry have to take one more step? He needs to think that Voldemort would choose that location to hide a horcrux.

Couldn't Dumbledore have thought that the location of where Voldemort learned the horcrux spell would be important enough to be a horcrux location? If Dumbledore suspected the location, but could not find it, then there should be a message, memory, etc indicating that.One would have to think that Dumbledore had not learned where Voldemort learned the Encasing spell. This is why I suspect that Harry will combine information from Regulus and Dumbledore: that way, nobody would doubt that Dumbledore would have figured it out if only he had had access to Regulus' sources.

So, this is related to what Penguinsrule suggests: Dumbledore knew that this was the sort of place where Voldemort would put a Horcrux, and perhaps something that he will have will help tell Harry where it is: but there has to be a key component that Dumbledore lacked. Otherwise, readers will think that Dumbledore was Doofusdore!

Well you could say that DD may not have been working alone, only that he didn't choose to tell Harry everything. I would have thought that the members of the order were in on where he was going, in order to protect the school and maybe to help Harry too.

Well you could say that DD may not have been working alone, only that he didn't choose to tell Harry everything. I would have thought that the members of the order were in on where he was going, in order to protect the school and maybe to help Harry too.

that's not the way it seemed to me when mcgonagal was recounting her part of the story at the end of hbp. she just says he'd said he would be leaving and we'd need extra security. in fact she interrogates harry as to what's been going on recently in the headmaster's office later that night/morning. the order doesn't seem to have a clue. i honestly think dd didn't tell anyone the whole story except harry; that's why he was so hesitant for harry to even tell ron and hermione. i believe it's fairly safe to say that, other than rab, who is most likely now dead, the trio are the only ones who know about voldy's horcruxes, save, of course, himself.

Well you could say that DD may not have been working alone, only that he didn't choose to tell Harry everything. I would have thought that the members of the order were in on where he was going, in order to protect the school and maybe to help Harry too.No, they were not. We see that in Prince, where neither McGonagal nor Tonks know what Dumbledore is doing.

Dumbledore tells Harry that it is important that word not get out about how much he (Dumbledore) knows about Voldemort's past. The Order has been hurt before by treachery, and Voldemort would not hesitate to use torture and Legilimency to get as much as he can out of a captured Order member. So, the best offense here is strict secrecy: Dumbledore could not (and Harry cannot) tell the Order members what they are doing.

Yes you are right. I didn't really think about that.

Ah, how easy it is to forget one of the most important rules regarding Harry Potter: it's JK's world, and we're all just playing in it. If JK does reveal how Tom Riddle learned about how to make a horcrux, then my little theories up above were probably wayyy too elaborate. Must...remember...occum's...razor (the simplest explanation is probably the best one).

If JK doesn't choose to divulge "how" Tom Riddle found out how to make a horcrux, then my theory(s) are a bit more realistic. I agree that it doesn't make sense in a literary fashion to introduce a convoluted plot, late, when a simple one would do just as well.

Oh thats such a sad thing to say! :sad: I suppose on that logic you could shut down this whole site, but where'e the fun in that?

This just doesn't seem likely. Tom didn't know he was even a wizard until he was found in the orphanage. I'm fairly certain that Grindelwald was dead by then...or am I just REALLY off on the timeline of when these things happened?

I tend to think that after Voldemort left school he sought to find more about Horcruxes and Grindelwald appears as a very likeley person to look at. But one needs to consider Dumbledore won against Grindelwald in the same year when Voldemort left Hogwarts so we're talking about a very small space of time.

I tend to think that after Voldemort left school he sought to find more about Horcruxes and Grindelwald appears as a very likeley person to look at. But one needs to consider Dumbledore won against Grindelwald in the same year when Voldemort left Hogwarts so we're talking about a very small space of time.

Wow you're right it was the same year wasn't it? I guess you could argue that Voldemort was already seeking out his history well before he left Hogwarts and may have sought for Grindelwald during his time there. He didn't learn about Horcruxes until after he was a Prefect so it still wouldn't have allowed Tom much time.

Wow you're right it was the same year wasn't it? I guess you could argue that Voldemort was already seeking out his history well before he left Hogwarts and may have sought for Grindelwald during his time there. He didn't learn about Horcruxes until after he was a Prefect so it still wouldn't have allowed Tom much time.

And I think that even if he had a year to find Grindelwald and learn things from him, who's to say that Grindelwald would teach him anything? I doubt Voldemort would teach anything to one of the Death Eaters that would make them as magically strong as he is - I would have to say that Grindelwald wouldn't be smart to do so either if he wanted to remain the supreme magical evil of his day, and I think he would know this as well.

...the best offense here is strict secrecy: Dumbledore could not (and Harry cannot) tell the Order members what they are doing.

I agree that this is absolutely true, but I have to wonder how RAB found the cave and retreived the horcrux if he didn't know about Voldemort's past as an orphan and the trips they would make to the coast. Who else knew about this?

Good theory. My only main thought against the idea is how much Dumbledore impresses upon Harry, how Voldemort always works alone and in the deepest secrecy. I dont see Voldemort taking advice and learning from Grindelwald. The dates do sound like they could have been involved at some point though. I just dont think Voldemort would look upto anyone to take advice from them.

Good theory. My only main thought against the idea is how much Dumbledore impresses upon Harry, how Voldemort always works alone and in the deepest secrecy. I dont see Voldemort taking advice and learning from Grindelwald. The dates do sound like they could have been involved at some point though. I just dont think Voldemort would look upto anyone to take advice from them.Quite true...but he would certainly do it if it meant being able to elude the one thing he fears above all others - death.

Don't know if this has been mentioned, but I find it difficult to believe that Grindelwald would mentor Tom Riddle in any way, short of being absolutely forced if Riddle was more powerful than he. Like Dumbledore said, the Dark baddies are always on the lookout for one to rise up against them.

If Grindelwald had a Horcrux, which I find likely, he would hardly need a protege to carry on his work. I really doubt he'd want to give anyone any type of power.

I agree with ID824. I don't think he'd ever look up to anyone but to gain knowledge about overcoming death, I can see him doing that. Plus to him I think he might just look at Grindewald as another teacher seeing as he possibly taught him the Horcrux spell.

It's... possible. I don't know. Why would Grindelwald tutor Tom? How would Tom have found him? What would allow Grindelwald to agree to mentor him? What did Tom need mentoring with? He's alreay brilliant, charming, can wheedle information out of people, and knows how to make Horcruxes.

Tom was born in 1925 or 26, wasn't he? So Grindelwald was defeated when Tom was twenty. So if he found Grindelwald right after he left school (when he was eighteen), he'd only have about two years to study with him. And... if that did happen, do you think Tom might have betrayed Grindelwald.

Hold on, wouldn't he have killed (or "defeated" if you want to get technical about it) Grindelwald himself? Surely he had the political knowledge to realize that Grindelwald was beginning to lose the war.... Was it a war? Or was Grindelwald just some crazy Dark wizard?

This is getting way too complex. I think it all depends on various circumstances about Grindelwald.

My final answer is going to be know.... I think. I think Tom would have killed Grindelwald himself if the former was beginning to lose against Dumbledore. Think of the popularity points he'd gain! And he'd kill him because Tom wouldn't stay an understudy for long. Just long enough to get the information he needs - then he takes over. And I know some might argue that he wouldn't have had enough power at the age of twenty, but I disagree. He created Horcruxes and commited murder at the age of what, sixteen? I know Grindelwald was uber powerful, but Dumbledore defeated him! So that would be a no.

My own opinion is that Tom Riddle found out information from Grindelwald in some way, shape, or form. This could have come from studying Grindy after the fact (aka learning how DD defeated him, and trying to avoid that same mistake), direct tutoring from Grindy (I think this less likely, because if Grindy was the big, bad dark wizard many think he was, he wouldn't have wanted a true apprentice - he'd be interested only in followers), or trickery (Grindy never knew Tom Riddle got info from him).

Aww, I missed this thread getting all active again...

Ok, about the timeline, if I'm not mistaken (it's said somewhere previous on this thread), Grindy was defeated in 45 and Tommy graduated in 44. I think...At any rate, all Tommy really needed was the Horcrux incantation before he made them. Which is why several of us on here tend to think Tommy was seeking out Grindy before he graduated, probably during his summers. I kind of think he would have approached Grindy like a fan, using his charm and flattery to get on Grindy's good side. Think of how the DEs approach Voldy; they call him my lord and attempt to flatter him, especially if they're giving bad news. I think Tommy was charming enough that he could have gotten the information he wanted from Grindy, probably without Grindy even realizing exactly what he was telling Tommy. I don't think he would have walked up to him saying hi, I'm the guy that's gonna try to take you down and become the most powerful Dark Lord ever. I also think it might have amused Grindy to have a follower right under DD's nose. It's fairly obvious that DD and Grindy had a relationship similar to that of DD and Voldy. I'm sure he would have thought it entertaining to have a young follower/supporter that he was "mentoring" in DD's classes every week, right in front of his face. At any rate, I think it's very possible, and, based on Jo's reaction in the interview with Emerson and Melissa and the Chocolate Frog Card information we have, I think it fits quite nicely.

I think it fits nicely too, but I think Grindelwald would only teach anybody magic that he could counter. I think something as advanced as Horcruxes, something that would make the user virtually immortal, would be a closely guarded secret. I don't think he'd want anybody to know he had a Horcrux either. Imagine someone trying to wheedle that information out of Voldemort. I'd say it would have been just as impossible for Tom Riddle to get that information from Grindelwald.

I think it fits nicely too, but I think Grindelwald would only teach anybody magic that he could counter. I think something as advanced as Horcruxes, something that would make the user virtually immortal, would be a closely guarded secret. I don't think he'd want anybody to know he had a Horcrux either. Imagine someone trying to wheedle that information out of Voldemort. I'd say it would have been just as impossible for Tom Riddle to get that information from Grindelwald.

But not if he too had a Horcurx, which could explain DD's fierceness on the subject. If Grindy had a Horcrux, I don't see why Tommy wouldn't be able to coax the method out of him, as long as he either didn't think Tommy would make one or would only make one. Then, later I think (I think he'd already made the diary by the time the conversation takes place), he tries to ask Sluggy about more than one. He wouldn't have wanted Grindy to know his plans, and DD says after the conversation that what he really wanted to know was if he could make more than one. Then I think he went on to make the ring. And Voldy may be harder to get that info out of because he knows all the tricks and such. But if Tommy was as charming as he's given credit for and Grindy himself wasn't a charmer and so didn't see it coming, it is possible. I think it is anyway...

But not if he too had a Horcurx, which could explain DD's fierceness on the subject. If Grindy had a Horcrux, I don't see why Tommy wouldn't be able to coax the method out of him, as long as he either didn't think Tommy would make one or would only make one. Then, later I think (I think he'd already made the diary by the time the conversation takes place), he tries to ask Sluggy about more than one. He wouldn't have wanted Grindy to know his plans, and DD says after the conversation that what he really wanted to know was if he could make more than one. Then I think he went on to make the ring. And Voldy may be harder to get that info out of because he knows all the tricks and such. But if Tommy was as charming as he's given credit for and Grindy himself wasn't a charmer and so didn't see it coming, it is possible. I think it is anyway...

I agree, Dumbledore seemed much more interested in the fact that Voldemort had made more than one Horcrux. It doesn't seem absurd to believe Grindelwald taught Riddle how to make a Horcrux, but then Riddle would ask Slughorn about the possibility of more Horcruxes, in order to keep his plans safe from Grindelwald. It may not appear likely but much stranger events took place in HBP that we didn't see coming.

JK Rowling as good as said that we will see Dumbledore in book 7, could this be involving a pensieve scene, showing the demise of Grindelwald?

My thought too, before reading the thread was no, Tom Riddle would never want to work in league with someone- he always wanted to be secluded, secret, important, and as he put it as a child, to be "special." It's hard for me to see him asking for help in that way.
After reading responses I've heard some good arguments, which honestly make me more torn because there are possibilities in both directions.

Grindelwald may not have been a mentor per se, but he may have been an influence. We don't know anything about what Grindelwald was trying to do, and we have only a vague idea of what Voldemort's aim was, aside from taking over and conquering death. Perhaps Voldemort had friends at school whose parents were in league with Grindelwald (his house was Slytherin, where, as we all know, turns out many Dark wizards ). Tom Riddle could have gotten the idea for opening the CoS from him too (unlikely though). Or, perhaps Tom Riddle, somewhat like Malfoy now, offered his services to Grindelwald, but Dumbledore defeated him before Riddle really could do anything, so he decided to work at Borgin and Burkes.

Another interesting point: The chocolate frog card in Book 1 says that Dumbledore is famous for his "...defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald." And in book 5, Dumbledore says to Voldemort that there ways of destroying a man that are much worse than death. Perhaps that's how Dumbledore defeated Grindlewald and Voldemort thought him dead?

I read something interesting on the Lexicon.

According to Slughorn (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/slughorn.html), some spell appears to be involved for the implant process, but Slughorn (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/slughorn.html) neither knew nor wished to know the detailsHBP23 (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/about/books/hbp/rg-hbp23.html)).

As I beleive that the memory was complete in the end, Voldemort didn't get the informations about the spell from Slughorn that night. So where did he get it else from?


"There is a spell, do not ask me, I don't know!" said Slughorn, shaking his head like an old elephant bothered by mosquitoes. "Do I look as though I have tried it - do I lool like a killer?"

It sound as if he's the opinion that only someone who would do such things know how exactly the spell works. And earlier he said that very few would even do it. As only really bad people probably would think of splitting their sould, Grindelwald is indeed a good option.

The line from DD, where he says that "you and I both know there are other ways of destroying a man", is indeed curious. As is the fact that, although it was nonverbal, both DD and LV knew exactly what the spell was. I'm one who thinks that the spell DD used may be the same spell DD used on Grindelwald - I don't think it's much of a stretch to link the Choco frog card and the OoTP battle.

Good theory. My only main thought against the idea is how much Dumbledore impresses upon Harry, how Voldemort always works alone and in the deepest secrecy. I dont see Voldemort taking advice and learning from Grindelwald. The dates do sound like they could have been involved at some point though. I just dont think Voldemort would look upto anyone to take advice from them.


That says it all for me :)

Another interesting point: The chocolate frog card in Book 1 says that Dumbledore is famous for his "...defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald." And in book 5, Dumbledore says to Voldemort that there ways of destroying a man that are much worse than death. Perhaps that's how Dumbledore defeated Grindlewald and Voldemort thought him dead?

I like it! So that would mean that the time frame would not have to be before Grindelwald was defeated, maybe he was floating around, stripped to the very barest form of existence. Jo also said that we would find out what that spell was, so that works well with the pensive theory!

Grindelwald mentoring Riddle seems a bit too far fetched. Voldemort, as Dumbledore said, is that he always prefers being solo. So I doubt he would take any advice from Grindelwald, Voldemort does think that he is more powerful then any other wizard.

Grindelwald mentoring Riddle seems a bit too far fetched. Voldemort, as Dumbledore said, is that he always prefers being solo. So I doubt he would take any advice from Grindelwald, Voldemort does think that he is more powerful then any other wizard.

Voldemort is much more likely to use coercion to get information, rather than taking on a student role. However, he was perfectly charmiong with most of the teachers at Hogwarts, and he was even Head Boy. He was such a good student because he wanted knowledge for knowledge is power. He coiuld easily adopt the same attitude to charm Grindelwald into mentoring him. I think it is likely that Dumbledore *defeated* Grindelwald, not by killing him, but by rendering him powerless. Perhaps Grindelwald was eager to pass on his information to one he saw had potential to carry out his dark agenda. I could see a teacher/student scenario easily, but it could just as easily be that Voldemort sought out Grindelwald and coerced information frrom him by force. Grindlewald was possibly living like a muggle, with no magical powers, and maybe had memory charms that Voldemort had to break through. Either way seems good to me.

I wonder if Karkaroff plays a role there. He is about the same age than Voldemort. If Grindelwald indeed was a student of Durmstrang, where the DA were taught. Maybe he was teacher later and Karkaroff was a student.
And Grindy maybe taught his students how to make Horcruxes.
Karkaroff was maybe an early follower of Voldemort and told him about horcruxes.
Karkaroff behaved very strangely in GoF.

Another interesting point: The chocolate frog card in Book 1 says that Dumbledore is famous for his "...defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald." And in book 5, Dumbledore says to Voldemort that there ways of destroying a man that are much worse than death. Perhaps that's how Dumbledore defeated Grindlewald and Voldemort thought him dead?

That is a very interesting theory. I never considered the possibility that Grindelwald might still be alive in some form or other. It would be exciting to see more of Dumbledore's past and how he defeated Grindelwald, if indeed Voldemort did learn from him.

I'm actually writing a fan fic on this now, so I'll probably link to it in the thread starter when I've writen the first chapter!

I'm actually writing a fan fic on this now, so I'll probably link to it in the thread starter when I've writen the first chapter!

Excellent, sounds good! :tu:

I don't think that Karkaroff would have told Voldemort about Horcruxes however. He seems pretty ineffectual and I doubt, if Grindelwald ever taught at a foreign school, that he would teach students to make Horcruxes.

Excellent, sounds good! :tu:

I don't think that Karkaroff would have told Voldemort about Horcruxes however. He seems pretty ineffectual and I doubt, if Grindelwald ever taught at a foreign school, that he would teach students to make Horcruxes.

Yes. Horcruxes seem to be the darkest of dark magic. Even a school that teaches dark magic probably wouldn't teach such a thing. They don't want to let random evil students become immortal! Horcruxes are more likely to be kept to the selfish, power-seeking types. I wonder where Grindelwald learned of Horcruxes? Probably not relevant-but I think it is possible that he was out there somewhere-mortal and powerless and Tom Riddle coaxed the information out of him.

Yes. Horcruxes seem to be the darkest of dark magic. Even a school that teaches dark magic probably wouldn't teach such a thing. They don't want to let random evil students become immortal! Horcruxes are more likely to be kept to the selfish, power-seeking types. I wonder where Grindelwald learned of Horcruxes? Probably not relevant-but I think it is possible that he was out there somewhere-mortal and powerless and Tom Riddle coaxed the information out of him.

:agree: Yes, I see Grindelwald as being power-driven and secretive like Voldemort, so the chances of sharing his secrets ia minimal. Riddle's flattery may have coaxed out the knowledge of how to create one, but I don't think Grindelwald would have helped him. Apart from Grindelwald, I don't see how Riddle could have learnt this information, as no other dark wizard has been mentioned. The only other possibility is that he someone discovered the process himself, but I favour the former.

I am a great fan of the theory that Grindelwald mentored Tom Riddle, a great fan. As Dumbledore says in OotP (which I'm rereading in advance of the movie--and no matter how many times I read it, I cannot get over how much of an emo twerp Harry is in it), there are far worse things than death, worse things to do to a man than killing him. I think Grindelwald was the one mentioned in HBP who created a Horcrux, and I think Dumbledore destroyed it and stripped him of his powers but didn't kill him. I think a teenaged Tom Riddle sought him out.

I read a theory in another thread about the Deluxe edition of DH worth mentioning here. Harry, Ron, and Hermione are all riding a dragon I assume to be Norbert . . . could one of the twelve uses of dragon's blood discovered by Dumbledore have something to do with destroying Horcruxes?

I am a great fan of the theory that Grindelwald mentored Tom Riddle, a great fan. As Dumbledore says in OotP (which I'm rereading in advance of the movie--and no matter how many times I read it, I cannot get over how much of an emo twerp Harry is in it), there are far worse things than death, worse things to do to a man than killing him. I think Grindelwald was the one mentioned in HBP who created a Horcrux, and I think Dumbledore destroyed it and stripped him of his powers but didn't kill him. I think a teenaged Tom Riddle sought him out.

I read a theory in another thread about the Deluxe edition of DH worth mentioning here. Harry, Ron, and Hermione are all riding a dragon I assume to be Norbert . . . could one of the twelve uses of dragon's blood discovered by Dumbledore have something to do with destroying Horcruxes?

:lol: Aww Harry is not an emo twerp. He had a hard time in OOTP and was sorry for his reactions. Back on topic, the other information on the Chocolate Frog card turned out to be important (regarding Flamel), so it would fit nicely if this linked in too. However, on the thread discussing the artwork of DH, it was discussed whether it actually is a dragon they are riding. It certainly doesn't appear to be an Opaleye and many people have argued that a dragon would be very hard to tame or train. Therefore the theory that it was an Animagus has come about (specifically surrounding Aberforth), and I wonder if an Animagus' blood, even in the form of a dragon, still has the magical properties required.

I´d be upset if i faced the darkest wizard alive and then be left out of action.
But I am a girl and boys are usually not that emotional.

Is the dragon Norbert?

I don´t think that grindelwald would mentor another wanna-be-dark wizard.
i think the link between Grindelwald and Voldemort is Karkaroff.

I think it is highly likely that in Deathly Hollows we will find out that Voldemort is the reason Grindelwald is dead. It is apparent Dumbledore would never kill and Voldemort likely killed the imprisoned Grindelwald to make a Horcux. I believed it is mentioned in HBP that Voldemort reserved horcuxes for special kills and who better than someone who was once perceived as the darkest and most powerful wizard. This surely would have made it apparent to the public how powerful Voldemort is.

:lol: Aww Harry is not an emo twerp. He had a hard time in OOTP and was sorry for his reactions.


I tell ya, Gandalf_Shaw, he was as emo as emo can get! Yeah, sure, he was going through a lot, but sheesh . . . did he have to be so mopey? :lol:

However, on the thread discussing the artwork of DH, it was discussed whether it actually is a dragon they are riding. It certainly doesn't appear to be an Opaleye and many people have argued that a dragon would be very hard to tame or train. Therefore the theory that it was an Animagus has come about (specifically surrounding Aberforth), and I wonder if an Animagus' blood, even in the form of a dragon, still has the magical properties required.

Hmm . . . I cannot imagine a wizard being a dragon Animagus. That seems rather far-fetched. All the Animagi we've seen across the series have been "normal" animals, not magical creatures, right?

Check out the fan fic here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=4561780&posted=1#post4561780)!

This theory makes so much sense! I've never kept up with the dates of past-HP-happenings but something about Grindlewald has been nagging me for ages - this might be an answer to it. The question is: how relevant will it be to book 7? There was a Mugglenet editorial quite a while ago about a spell that "defeats" a wizard but doesn't actually kill him, with references to the fact that DD's frog card says that he "defeated" Grindlewald, not "killed" him. I'll see if I can find it.

here it is (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-greg01.shtml)

That's a really interesting editorial! Thanks!:tu:

No, I don't think that Voldemort would have taken orders by someone other than himself. He was a loner, even as a child. Although the idea of being trained by a great wizard would be flattering to anyone, I think that if he was too close to Grindelwald, he would have been taken down with him.

(By the way, dobbysocks, nice fan-fic. I put some feedback for you.)

No, I don't think that Voldemort would have taken orders by someone other than himself. He was a loner, even as a child. Although the idea of being trained by a great wizard would be flattering to anyone, I think that if he was too close to Grindelwald, he would have been taken down with him.


I'm one who thinks that Tom Riddle used Grindelwald, or found out information from Grindelwald without Grindy knowing. This fits Riddle's personality; and repeatedly we saw Riddle use people, then leave them once their usefulness was gone.

I agree that Riddle wouldn't have sat around the campfire, absorbing Grindelwald's "Life Lessons for the Seriously Evil Wizard (or Witch)". He'd be a bit more subtle :lol:

I'm one who thinks that Tom Riddle used Grindelwald, or found out information from Grindelwald without Grindy knowing. This fits Riddle's personality; and repeatedly we saw Riddle use people, then leave them once their usefulness was gone.

I agree that Riddle wouldn't have sat around the campfire, absorbing Grindelwald's "Life Lessons for the Seriously Evil Wizard (or Witch)". He'd be a bit more subtle :lol:

If he did find out information without Grindelwald knowing then I wonder how he did it? On the other hand, if Grindelwald was anything like Voldemort then he wouldn't give away any secrets willingly. So perhaps he did find a way of learning secretly from Grindelwald.

If he did find out information without Grindelwald knowing then I wonder how he did it? On the other hand, if Grindelwald was anything like Voldemort then he wouldn't give away any secrets willingly. So perhaps he did find a way of learning secretly from Grindelwald.

Three possibilities:
1. Studying Grindy's history extensively after Grindy fell

2. From a powerless Grindy (lots of speculation that DD left Grindy alive but "magicless"

3. Deceit while Grindy was fully powerful. Tom Riddle was a clever young boy, so he may have got info from Grindy by spying or some other means, while Grindy was none-the-wiser.

Three possibilities:
1. Studying Grindy's history extensively after Grindy fell

2. From a powerless Grindy (lots of speculation that DD left Grindy alive but "magicless"

3. Deceit while Grindy was fully powerful. Tom Riddle was a clever young boy, so he may have got info from Grindy by spying or some other means, while Grindy was none-the-wiser.

I don't believe the first theory would give Riddle the insight he desired in understanding Grindelwald, I believe he needed to meet him. The second theory is very likely because we have never heard that Dumbledore killed Grindelwald, only "defeated" him. In OOTP, Dumbledore tells Voldemort "We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom". Could this be a reference to Grindelwald?

I don't believe the first theory would give Riddle the insight he desired in understanding Grindelwald, I believe he needed to meet him. The second theory is very likely because we have never heard that Dumbledore killed Grindelwald, only "defeated" him. In OOTP, Dumbledore tells Voldemort "We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom". Could this be a reference to Grindelwald?

I believe entire editorials have sprung up regarding that exact quote, and the jump to Grindelwald. One of my favorite theories that I think has a 50/50 shot of being true is exactly what you just said :).

:tu: Therefore does anyone think that Grindelwald will appear in DH other than as a reference? Is he so completely destroyed he is not human, or did Dumbledore just find a way to make his magical potential decrease or even disappear? I would love to see the importance of Grindelwald finally resolved by J.K.