Underground Lake #39 - Reprieves and Condemnations

Discussion for The Underground Lake #39 - Reprieves and Condemnations (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/theundergroundlake/tul39.shtml) by Brandon Ford.

Great job! I agree that Lupin is the one to get a reprieve! Can't wait for the next one, keep up the good work!! :)

I was glad to see that you had another editorial for us to enjoy. I agree with you that it is Lupin who gets the reprieve. The original plan may have been to take out all of Harry's support system, but I really hope that JKR has decided that his death isn't necessary.

I hate to think that it is Hagrid who gets the ax, but it would make sense. Hagrid loved Dumbledore. He really doesn't serve a purpose after book 7, so he may be the one to go. I really don't want him too, though, and his giant skin is very tough. But JKR's slip up at the book reading seemed to be a hint that Hagrid was going to die.

I agree with everything except Neville. JK said that one of the students would become a future Hogwarts prof, and who more apt than Neville? JK has already proved his courage so his selfless sacrafice for the greater good would not be unexpected, but I beleive that after everything Neville has been through, he will be spared. He has yet to live up to his parents abilities as aurors, and he has to survive to prove Gram-Gram wrong.

The Lupin repreive is a brilliant observation. I haven't spent a whole lot of time speculating that quote as I am not big into spoiling the book for myself, but I must say that I can totally concur. Thanks for another great entry!

Aw, geez, I really don't want Hagrid to die. He has been there since the very beginning: getting Harry out of Godric's Hollow, being the one to tell him he's a wizard. I agree he seems like a prime candidate, but his death would be sad to the point of morbidity. We already know what a brave person he is and what an old softie he is. Somehow I feel like a death would be used to highlight the nobility of a character, and we already know that about Hagrid. He also needs to be there while Harry isn't, because his loyalty means Dumbledore hasn't truly left Hogwarts. Maybe we will get lucky. Maybe he got the reprieve.

But the person I think was most likely to get a reprieve is Pettigrew, simply because I think he was most likely to die. Hope not. What a waste of a good reprieve. I just don't think he has served his purpose yet. Where's the life debt?

The two who die? Boy, that one is anyone's game, isn't it? All I can say is it had better not be Ron.

Bloody Brilliant as always!
I agree that Lupin got the reprieve, but it could also be...dare I say it...TFPWSNBN--I'm convinced he was loyal to Dumbledore after the last month or so of editorials. That's not to say he's good, but I think he's playing LV for a huge fool! Remember the quote in OotP? "The Dark Lord ALMOST always knows when he is being lied to." (Occlumency chapter, American Hardback ed.) Implying that TFP can lie to him (LV) without his knowledge. Dumbledore's ultimate prime directive is what TFP cares about.
Anyway, rant over.
I also think that Hagrid will get the axe. He's around 60, and now that DD's gone, there's just no point...(Skewrts anyone?)

I don't know if Aberforth is important enough to snuff it. I mean, we just get to really meet him in DH--still a possibility, but really no emotional attachment for me.
What about Petunia???? Wouldn't that be sad? I know she was horrible to Harry, but she will give him insight about his mother that no one else can...hmmm.....
I think the two (to die) could also be Fred and George (sniff, sniff). That would be an emotional blow. They have a flair for business, but I think they will change their attitude about the Order, once they see their entire family sticking their necks out...

Great Job, looking forward to your next...
Mommcgonagall

Mcgonagall and Draco get the cut.

Great editorial as usual, you're forgiven for the time it took, its the quality that counts, and as long as you keep them coming.

Now, as for the editorial, i do agree on most of the points, and i didn't think about the 'matching pair' theory that much before, but i dunno, i think it will be very emotional if one character of any of the pairs die, i think hermione/ ron are safe for the reasons you mentioned, but i don't think the whole of the weasley family is safe, theres just too many of them, but i can't think who of them could die, even taking Percy into account, i believe he will have a chance to redeem himself, maybe he dies in the process.

i don't think Neville will die, i think he's only just got the chance to shine, he should grow up and become the herbology professor, afterall, Jo did say one of the students will become a teacher.

finally i agree with you about Hagrid, actually as much as i don't want him to die, i don't really have a doubt it will happen. Also, i'd like to hope and think you're right about Lupin, what a great character to get a reprieve, afterall, Harry will need him in the future. maybe he will live with Tonks and Lupin, because Harry is NOT going to die either!!!!!

I try not to get involved with the "who lives and who dies debate" because I usually get them wrong. However I agree with you that Lupin could be the one to get a reprieve. I won't name the people I expect to die because, as I said above, I am usually wrong in this respect.

Good editorial. It is to the point and not excessively long, unlike some editorials I have read over the years.

Great editorial
Although i always thought Hagrid would die, im not sure when i read the editorial, because like it said people with purposes would prehaps not die because they have a story after part 7 I was thinking about GRWAP! i mean i dont think Hermione or Harry are going to look after him if Hagrid dies and the creatures in the forbidden forests i dont think professor grubby-plank will be able to do his job. Hagrid needs to be there for the job in the Forbidden forest and for Grwap!!
I really really hope none of the weaslys die but i have a feeling one will there always in danger Ginny in part 2 arthur in part 5 etc.
I dont know who will die but whoever it is i think i will be shocked *sniff*

I'm hoping if Lupin was ddestined to die beofore that it's him that gets a reprieve - but not at the expense of a young person - except for Draco perhaps.

Hopefully Lucius Malfoy gets it along with Bellatrix, Fenrir and Voldemort.

Hagrid could have been for the chop all along so could he be the reprieve?

We don't know who was destined to live and die before so it's hard to say who will live and die now.

I hope you're right about the Harry and co though and that they all live.

I too think Neville is the unexpected and unlikey student who becomes a Hogwarts teacher (Herbology anyone?) but that could also be Luna do you think? She'd make an excellent eccentric professor at something.

Glad your back Brandon - missed your "wicked" editorials, which are always very informative and fun to read! I do hope you are right about Lupin.

Until today I was convinced that Minerva McGonagall was not going to make it - but then having your editorial in mind - who would be the next Headmaster in Hogwarts?

I am looking forward to your next editorial!

I don't agree that people who are in love automatically get a reprieve. In alchemy, certainly a theme of the series, the alchemical couple dies. I think that's probably Bill and Fleur since their marriage will probably occur early in the book. I don't agree that the loss of a partner would keep either Ron or Hermione from being part of the epilogue. They both have a lot to contribute, and not just to each other.

I also think that Voldemort will be defeated at great cost. We won't take it seriously if it's done easily. War means, among other things, the loss of lovers. I think Hagrid is probably doomed, and I think at least one set of lovers in the book are going to be tragic lovers.

I also think we're going to lose some young people. So far it's only been Cedric. Draco is a possibility, but I feel sure we're going to lose Fred and/or George. They take risks, they don't stay within boundaries, they've been able to start the joke shop they always wanted, and they've got a large family to be concerned about. In addition, in the series they started out as Hogwarts kids but are now adults out on their own; killing them off will hurt us but won't be as tragic as if it was a fifteen-year-old.

I tend to think Snape will die, but I think that was probably always going to happen.

I'm not saying I don't think that Hagrid dies, but you were discussing "matching pairs." What about Hagrid and Madame Maxime?

Brandon, you've bent the facts to fit your theory. Ginny and Harry are a pair, no matter how bravely he tried to separate from her in HBP, Hagrid and Madame Maxime are a pair, and what about Gawp, who needs Hagrid's guidance in the future? You could make the argument that Neville and Luna are a pair. And Charlie is not a pair, so he is safe? Where is the logic?
You really didnt give a good reason why Tonks and Lupin would not die as a pair, nor that the Weasley Twins would not die as a pair, nor that Ron and Hermione would not die as a pair. I personally think that there are only one possible explanation for how Jo changed her mind. I believe Jo had always intended Ginny to die, but to let Ron and Hermione live, and now she has killed off Ron and Hermione and allowed Ginny to live. The good news about that is that Harry would also live. Because he and Ginny are a pair. Im predicting at least ONE Weasley will die. If everyone is making sacrifices, there is no doubt one of them has to go.
PS. Glad you are back and looking forward to your next editorial.

Note that JKR's comment was about changes in survival, not about life or death situations that did not change. There may be many major characters that tragically die that have always been so condemned. Tragic deaths, in good literature, have to involve characters in whom the reader has invested a lot of positive emotion, or there is no tragedy.

I don't think one can simply assume that characters who are paired off will either both survive or both die.

It's a war, albeit an odd one, and in war, people die, even those with partners. JKR is old enough, and enough of a realist, to know this. To save or kill according to pairing off would create a certain triteness to the story, one where fate, not free will, determines destiny.

Given the major theme of "choices made" throughout the series, splitting up pairs could lead to some interesting dilemmas.

What if Ron, Hermione, and an innocent muggle were trapped, and Harry could only rescue them one at the time? Would he take the innocent muggle first, before his friends, who have at least a wizard's chance of saving themselves? What if that decision led to him being able to save two of the three, but the last, left behind, is killed before he can return for them?

Or turn it around - what if Ron or Hermione had to choose between saving Harry or the other half of their couple, knowing that Harry is the only one who could stop Voldemort?

And simply having to live with the aftermath of having the love of your life killed may be enough reason to save one and kill the other. Choosing to live, to fight on, etc., even after such a loss.

Ursula, I have to agree with you. What a perfect example of a "fate worse than death."

I love your essays Brandon, even though I do not agree with this one. Keep them coming!

I loved your essay overall Brandon, but I agree somewhat with Ursula as well.

I've always thought that Lupin will survive to the end however. I think that someone from the maurauders has to be around so Harry has that connection to his parents without mommying Harry too much. I never felt that Lupin would get in the way of Harry's "kill Voldemort" plans like Doubledore would have, but rather would work with Harry/under Harry's command.

Let's hope your right about the trio though!

Glad to see you back again Brandon. I felt your editorial was really interesting, but flawed. I don't see any reason for being saved simply because you are part of a pair. I agree w/ Ursula, that the loss will be all the more felt if it is a single partner who dies and not the entire couple.

I agree with you that Lupin could be reprieved. I also agree that Hagrid will probably die in defense of Harry and I'm extremely worried about the twins or even worse, just one twin. I don't think that just because they have the joke shop they're not involved in the Order and fight to stop Voldemort. The Twins have always come to the rescue in one way or another and I see them as extremely valuable to the fight in weaponry development and just plain bravery. The Twins have never backed down from a tussle and I don't think they're just sitting back and bringing in the dough just for laughs.

I'm glad that you mentioned a clear reason why Harry, Ron, Hermione or Ginny are not the persons Jo spoke about in the interview. I've been saying this eve since her statement and to whomever who thought that all of a sudden, Harry was going to die, well. that is, if I took the effort.

Jo is famous for meticulously planning her series. She wrote the final chapter back in 1990! She is not going to think after having written 6 out of 7 books, "Well, I'm going to kill Harry after all." She may or may not kill Harry/Ron/Hermione/Ginny, but none of them are the persons of whom Jo spoke in the interview. I think we can be sure of that:)

Well, for the rest ... I kind of disagree with your new rule... I can imagine that Jo will also show us with some of her characters that sometimes, you're left alone, abandoned by the one you loved. She always shows the exception on happily ever after.

I do like it, though, to read a new editorial:) We will see, whether Neville will become the new Herbology teacher or die attempting to kill Bellatrix or having succeeded and he'll end up being killed by Voldemort. Aaahhh Jo is capable of anything, she has showed us that. So I'm not going to speculate anymore on the subject:p

Nice editorial, but I don't agree on all accounts. Firstly, JKR has already proved that a number of people will get killed, just to prove the impact of Voldy's terror. I'm sure that at least one of the Weasly's will die, because they are so many, and several of them could easily be spared. I think that Percy must redeem himself, and might just as well die in the process. He might be the one to get the reprieve though. I think that one of the twins could die, too. That would be immensely sad, but not unheard of. As for Lupin, I believe that JKR always meant for him and Tonks to be a couple. It seems almost unfair to kill one of them off now. I definitely think that something like that would have been planned years ago. I agree that Luna is a likely candidate to snuff i, as is Flitwick. The most likely retrieve is, at least in my book, Pettigrew.

Excellent editorial! Its a pity we had to wait so long for this since your last one. I love the Lupin Theory, but I still think Pettigrew has to die just because of his betrayal to James and Lily.

I don't quite agree with your "they both live or they both die; neither can live while the other doesn't survive" theory. I think that it's plausible that Hermione could live without Ron, or vice versa. Not everyone in the world has to be paired up.

Overall, great editorial! I can't wait for your next one. I also can't wait to see if you're correct about the survivors. But, when has Brandon ever been wrong . . . ? ;)

I always love your editorials! Very entertaining.

I agree with you on many counts (like the trio, Lupin, and the Weasleys) but I really don't think that Luna will die. As for Neville and Hagrid...I have always been suspect that they might not make it (especially Hagrid) but I am kind of the mind set that Neville might make it through...

When I think about it I really go back and forth on who I think will be killed...sometimes I feel Harry won't die and then I think he will, I am very wary about the entire Order....I don't know!

I do definitely agree that Ron and Hermione will survive though...as for the rest...I will have to wait and see!

I agree with your theory about pairings, however this is why I fear that the last minute condemnations apply to one of these pairs. Somehow it seems more likely that Jo felt the need to kill off one extra character and then had to kill off his/her pair (for the aforementioned reason) than having two seperate instances in which she needed to kill off a character. Of course, I could be wrong. I hope I am because I don't want Fred and George to die!

The reaction to this statement of Rowlings smacks of the lion-man fiasco pre-HBP. I think we've been totally thrown off the trail by her *again*. She, effectively, told us nothing. It's like wraping a present in a box too big for it to throw off guesses before it is actually opened. The box could hold ANYTHING.

As for the idea that one member of a couple cannot die because the other would have nothign to live for, I completely disagree. While it would be sad to see - for instance - Ron die, leaving Hermione alone, I think she would be able to move on with her life. Death at 17 is *tragic* but it doesn't unravel the metaphysical undercairrage of the universe. The books will not turn to dust in our hands if one character gets an epilogue that is something other than perfect. As a matter of fact, trauma is a major part of literature. A perfect "happily ever after" for every single survivor is as unlikely in fiction as it is impossible in reality.

Brandon says:

In the positive future, the best possible future, no one dies, Harry and Ginny are married, Ron and Hermione are married, and they live next door to each other in the wizarding suburbs. Harry and Ron hold high positions in the Auror Office. Ginny is a career-driven woman, and Hermione works at the Wizard-Muggle Liason Office. Everyone is happy, and no one is dead. It is this best possible future that informs upon the real ending.

I don't get it.

Why is Harry suddenly such a friend of the Ministry of Magic that he happily starts working for them. Aurors do work for the Ministry of Magic, don't they? Harry is mad at the Ministry of Magic, isn't he? Do they let new Aurors start in high-level positions? Would Harry be a dutiful and attentive junior partner, learning all that he can from a more experienced Auror, such as Dawlish?

Applicants for a job as an Auror need high marks in Potions. What is it about Ron's sixth year in Slughorn's potion class that makes you think he is well suited for a "high position" in the Auror office? Or is it Ron's natural proclivity to respect laws regarding the regulation of magic that make you think he'll be a good Auror. I thought he stole an enchanted car and was seen by Muggles. Was it Harry's idea to steal the car? Did Harry panic? Of course the boys were just twelve then. What is the magic ingredient that makes an immature boy suddenly turn into a responsible civic leader? Is a physical affair with a girl like Lavender what it takes to get all growed up?

Career-driven Ginny. I suppose she'll show the same level of initiative and sound judgement that led her to become a Prefect. Oh, she didn't become a Prefect, did she? I can't see Ginny as a great career woman. But then again I don't see the "Chocolate Moment" as a particularly brilliant incident either. Harry had a magic mirror and he could have contacted Sirius easily. What Harry needed at that moment was someone who would help him to think clearly and to analyze his options. He did not need encouragement to try a dangerous stunt like going into Umbridge's office.

Why is a job in the Muggle-liason office the best thing for Hermione? Because they don't require much in the way of skills except for a good sense of humor? Why do you think Hermione should put all of her education in a drawer? Why do you think that Hermione has a good sense of humor?

I don't get it.

Have we been reading different books?

Another thing I don't get is how this perfect future you've imagined "informs upon the real ending". I am of the opinion that analysis of the text in the books might yield some information.

I do praise your inclusion of Draco Malfoy and Severus Snape in the column of "bad guys". That puts you at odds with a lot of the Mugglenet editorial staff doesn't it?

A brilliant editorial as always. My only point of disagreement is that you classified the Creevey brothers in the "unimportant" category. I believe that Colin at least should be on the list if not both of them. JKR might not yet have revealed Colin's final importance but I believe she's given us enough hints to say that he will be important in the final analysis. Colin also features in the movies - in COS and in OOTP. Now we know enough about the movies to realise that they only have enough time and space to focus on characters who are important to the whole story. The most obvious indicator of this trend being the exclusion of Peeves. If Colin was an unimportant character then he could have easily been excluded from COS and OOTP movies without compromising the story yet he is there in both. I personally think that there is an argument for considering Colin Creevey in the list of important Good Guys.

Good editorial, but I just can't fathom that being involved in a romantic can make you immune to death.

I love reading your editorials! Thanks!

I do, however, think that Hagrid has a "future" story. He needs to stay at Hogwarts because Dumbledore will "never have truly gone" as long as someone at Hogwarts remains faithful to him. Hagrid is definitely loyal to Dumbledore and will remain that way as long as he lives; which gives Hogwarts Dumbledore's protection. Harry can't stay at Hogwarts...who else really has that level of loyalty?

Thanks for the editorial. Love your thoughts!

I think Fred will die because he is the funnier of the two and does more drastic stuff.

Hermione will die so that Ron can get revenge and finally become the hero he has always wanted to be.

Fenrir will be killed by Peter Pettrigrew because he was trying to kill Harry and Peter owes Harry a "life debt"

One of the Hogwarts teachers has to die so I think it will be Professor Sprout just because.

I'll buy Lupin getting the reprieve, but not Luna dying. I think she's the one who will return to Hogwarts as a teacher, teaching Divination. And while Fred and George may live, they will probably come close to dying. They've mocked death too many times to not be hit. I think Severus will die, and I still think Hagrid, but they were probably marked for death anyway.

First I would like to say nice to have you back among us - this is a really interesting editorial.

Like you, I agree that Hagrid is definitely likely to die and I think you have succinctly explained this far better than I. But I do not agree with your prediction that Aberforth will join in , or at least, as one of the the two who were not originally supposed to die. I think these two characters were always slated for death. Hagrid because we have all become attached to his goofy loving ways and Aberforth, well, I just think some of the Order must die to make the story realistic. Also I think that whoever the two are they will be characters that we have become attached to, and to be honest with all the stuff harry has to do in Deathly Hallows I don't see how JKR could fit giving the reader enough to make Aberforth's death have enough impact without making the book an additional couple of hundred pages longer (which of course I for one wouldn't really mind - but that is only b/c I hate to finish this series although I would love to see how it all works out.- I feel like that line from GoF when Fred or George talks about the person who writes to Harry who basically can't make her/his mind if he/she believe Harry's story about V)

That said , I do think that you have nailed the method for predicting who will likely "snuff it" in the end though. I think Neville ( like you suggest) is one who will die but for a slightly different reason. If I am not mistaken JKR has previously told us that Neville was to become a herbology teacher. I think, when she mentioned that someone who originally was to survive dies she is speaking of Neville and using your analysis of pairs that would suggest that Luna will pass along with him. I think this is likely because we have become attached emotionally to these two quirky characters who by the end of HBP have become attached to each other. Also I think that in a strange way these two, like Dumbledore view death as the next great adventure ( please, I am not advocating suicide here, merely that these two characters have a different understanding of death since they have both been directly affected by it and are among those who are not afraid to die for both each other and for the good of all wizardkind) For both Neville and Luna it would be a showing of their worth to those who have not gotten to know them and who have called them "Looney Lovegood" and bumbling and worthless as it appears Neville's grandmother has deemed him. Much as I for one would miss seeing them in the future living happily ever after it does not appear to me to likely.

Uh Huh! There you are, Brandon. Thought you fell off the Mugglenet bandwagon for a while. Glad your back and cant wait to hear your theories on the art work.

Anyhoo, I completly agree with the "marauder theory". I have always felt that there was an unspoken pact between them. We saw how Sirius and Lupin freaked on Peter about dying in the name of your freinds. They had to breech the subject while they were running amok in Hogsmede on a full moon!

Aberforth and Hagrid are interesting picks. Hagrid is now tied to his half giant brother, doesnt that count as a pairning in your opinion? I think Hagrid has a good chance of being killed by a gaiant and not a wizard. We've seen how little a wizard can do to his giant body, wouldnt an AK just bounce off of him? Aberforth I believe will not join in the fight but give Harry Albus' tools and pensive. He has always been a recluse, an outcast. I just cant see him jumping into action so late in the game. Unless Albus was protecting him. We saw how easy Aberforth exchanges items with Mundungus Fletcher, he may be in possesion of a stray horcrux and not know it.

Harry will live, he has too. If he dies, Ron and Hermione go on, as you say, and raise their own Gryffindors for the next generation. On the other hand if they die leaving Harry alone(even with Ginny alive) Harry would be devistated, never whole again. You see how he reacts when their not speaking to one another at school let alone utterly gone, dead.

Im not so sure about Neville dying. I feel like JKR has set up his herbology career pretty solidly. Theres got to be a reason she wrote in for five books now how natural Neville is with all things herbology. Didnt she say somwhere before that their will be a student from Harrys year to become a professor? Mabey this means Neville? Dont forget his Gran who emotionally abuses her grandson about not living up to the family name. Neville will get his day and future!

Luna has always struck me as a character that she could pick off easily, without many ties to the plot. But I must say as the story goes on I really dont feel like JKR is quite finished with her. She too heard the voices behind the veil, remember. Does she have a future though....I dont think so.

I think a Weasley will deffinatly die. Mrs Weasleys bogart was so foreshadowing it just cant be ignored. I think it will be Percy....he's been a traitor so far. Arthurs already been struck down by the snake, Ginny by Young Tom Riddle, Bill by Fenrire, and Ron by the poison. That leaves the twins, Charlie, Percy and Molly.

(In OotP remember how Mollys bogart showed Bill, Harry, Ron, Arthur, Percy and I believe Charlie....but where were the twins and Ginny? That always struck me funny. And when Ron gets his prefects badge Molly exclaimes, "Thats everyone in the family!" She excludes the twins and Ginny again. I wonder if thats JKR playing with us?)

Just a quick question for Brandon -- Has Snape always been on your "bad guy" list?

Just a quick question for Brandon -- Has Snape always been on your "bad guy" list?
Hopefully, Brandon himself will answer your question. But if you read Brandon's editorial called "What if we're wrong" you will see that he just recently came to the conclusion that Snape may not be good.

Good editorial, but I just can't fathom that being involved in a romantic can make you immune to death.Good question, but I understood it like Brendan was arguing from the narrative pov.
For example: why the whole build up of Ron and Hermione for six books only to kill one or both of them off in the end? That would render the whole build-up a bit of a moot point, IMO. Ron and Hermione have other functions in the books as Harry´s best friends. No romance needed, they could have just stayed friends.

This argument does not work for Lupin/Tonks though. While I think as well that Lupin got the reprieve, the last connection of Harry´s to his parents to survive, I am not sure about Tonks. I hope they can have a future, but their romance wasn´t such a constant throughout the books.

I agree that Hagrid is likely to die, as well as Luna, but I personally have Neville on my 'will live' list.

Concerning the Weasleys, I can imagine Molly has to go. Harry has lost two father figures (apart from his father of course) already. She would be the first mother figure. Percy finally redeeming himself and dying in the process is a scenrio I think likely as well. But who knows.

Anyway, though I do not agree 100%, great editorial.

Well, I agree with you that it's very likely that Lupin got the reprieve. Maybe Jo realised how mean it would be to kill him after all this :D Plus, how could you ever kill Lupin? He's just too nice, and now he's with Tonks, he's got the possibility of a future where he's not quite so alone (since his closest friends have pretty much bitten the dust.) I'd like to see him working with Hermione to advocate Werewolf rights, too...

But I gotta say, I really hope Jo doesn't kill off my 'ship (Neville/Luna) so completely. I'm almost certain that Luna will die (she doesn't have a birthday, and has been associated with death right from her first appearance in the series), but I kind of held out hopes for Neville going on to live happily ever after.

Anyway, still, great editorial.

I'll buy Lupin getting the reprieve, but not Luna dying. I think she's the one who will return to Hogwarts as a teacher, teaching Divination.

I think she'd be good teaching Care of Magical Creatures. But that would of course mean Hagrid dying... :scared:

Well im not sure....

I dont think Longbottom is going to snuff it though because remember the statement Jo said about one of the students eventually teaching at Hogwarts. I dont now exactly where that is but I always expected Longbottom to teach Herbology. Plus he MUST gain revenge on Bella. I'll be mad if he doent get that oppertuity. Secondly I dont think that Hagrid will surely die. I'm undecided though. But my reasoning is Gwap, and the need of the Giants to gain better place in the wizarding world. Jo has always had a back story of equality no matter the being within these books. Centaurs. Wearwolves. House Elves. Giants. After the battle between Harry and Voldermort is completed a new battle will begin. No longer a struggle for the equality for muggle born but equality for the half-human. Feirenze (sp?) will lead the march for the Centaurs. Lupin for the Wearwolves. Hermonie for House Elves. Leaving Hagrid to step up and be the one to demand better treatment for the Giants, with the help of that "beautiful" Olymp too. They are going to hook up and have soom mammoth chillen.. just wait and see.:lol:

good article though!:tu:

Brill Editorial as everyone has said however i have a few small points i wish to make!

i believe that (a) Lupin was always going to survive
and (b) Hagrid was always going to die

I believe that Lupin MUST live to carry on the marauder legacy and to be a comforter(NOT a protector, he is perhaps the only one clever enough to realise that this is harry's battle) to Harry during the war! Ergo: Pettigrew is will die either through his life debt or for committing the act of releasing himself from his lifedebt. In both cases i believe that LV will kill him!
(just thought maybe he will save harry from greyback using his silver hand)

Also Hagrid isnt going to step back and let the trio fight the war he will be there and he will die a noble death as Harry's last great protector. Thus completing the alchemical process. (OotP: Black-Sirius HBP:White Dumbledore[Albus] DH: Red-Hagrid[Rubeus]) Also the only couple that i believe cannot die/survive and must die/die or survive/survive are fred/george as they are twins and have such a deep pschological connection!

I have some other ideas but they will have to wait for another day!:cool:

Brill Editorial Though!

Well written editorial. Lots to think about. Why does everyone assume that Neville will be the teacher? Maybe his Herbology expertise will come into play with knowing how to treat injuries with certain plants. It could be Hermonie that is the future teacher - she is more suited to it.

As far as who lives and who dies, it's anybody's guess. JKR may have no problem breaking up pairs with death. The fanfic writers have no compunction about killing off major characters and have the one reamaining dealing with the grief. Of course, we all hope that all the good guys come out of this fairly unscathed and live a long and fulfilling life. But the chances of that happening are slim. We will just have to wait on pins & needles until July.

Also the only couple that i believe cannot die/survive and must die/die or survive/survive are fred/george as they are twins and have such a deep pschological connection!
Brill Editorial Though!

I believe this will be the exact reason that one of the twins will be taken, but I don't think that the reprieve had to do with JKR's comment. I think it was indeed Lupin who got the reprieve, but the condemnations are another story. I think Hagrid was destined to die all along, and I think that our trio will be safe. I am worried for Ginny however. It looks to me that if Ginny dies, this will provide Harry with the immediate rage necessarry to kill Voldemort, though I am not sure whether JKR will make our main character kill someone, this would set the scene for it. So I think Ginny will be one of the condemnations, and possibly Luna as well, I don't think JKR saw her as an important part until she just sat back and viewed the series as a whole. I think she will die, and I like the idea that someone earlie had of Neville getting through this and teaching Herbology at Hogwarts. I don't believe that Aberforth is significant enough to be in the discussion, although he may die.

Welcome Back, Brandon! I was beginning to wonder if Mugglenet was going to archive your column. That would be sad. :(

Who will live and who will die, though...I must say that I disagree with almost everyone except Hagrid. I've always felt that he was going to die...and I wouldn't be surprised if Nagini was the one to take him out. Knowing Hagrid and his fondness for beasts he would probably think Nagini to be easy pickings.

Neville will not die. Not just for the herbology aspect (which will have a huge plot in DH I believe) but because of JKR's feelings on courage..that there are different kinds and all should be valued. If Neville were to die then JKR would be undermining Neville's kind of courage.

The person who gets the reprieve I believe will be...Pettigrew. He will be reprieved from death but more than likely he will be kissed by dementors, or sent to Azkaban or something worse than death. JKR didn't say the reprieve was a good one!

The ones who die who weren't intended to die...

For me one of them would be Molly. Her boggart is the children dying. I imagine that she willingly sacrifice herself in much the same way Lily did. (maybe to protect Percy since he's been such a prat?) It may be the way that she goes about sacrificing herself that gives Ron, Hermione, and Harry clues that they need about Lily's death. And she certainly is a loved and beloved character. (Everytime I read the books I think to myself who WOULDN'T want a Mom like her? I will be devastated if I am right.)

The other person who wasn't intended to die but now is...McGonagal. I would DESTEST this but I can see why she was originally slated not to die. Who would run Hogwarts? But I also remember her flying to Hagrid's rescue in her nightrobes and how she took those stunners to the chest...I can't see her sitting aside and not assisting Harry. In fact given how I think Nagini is going to kill Hagrid I imagine that McGonagal will try to come to Hagrids rescue agin only this time she won't make it out alive. :(

I feel the twins are safe. While I fully believe that DH will be as or even more dark than HBP who will provide the comedy relief that is JKR's trademark in all the books? That's right, the twins.

I feel the twins are safe. While I fully believe that DH will be as or even more dark than HBP who will provide the comedy relief that is JKR's trademark in all the books? That's right, the twins.

Yes, I agree totally with that.

Hagrid is totally going to die...as will McGonagal. Those are my guesses. Snape will become headmaster, and Harry will end up the DADA teacher. (Harry will save Snape's life in the final battle, so he will feel obligated to give Harry the job.) I think Voldemort will live, but will be vanquished again lon enough for Harry's daughter to come along and take him down for good.

Brandon, we've missed you! I get what you're saying about contributing to the story post year 7, but I'm not sure the pairing makes them safe. If anything, Tonks may die which would make for a very sad Lupin who probably did get the reprieve. I don't think all the Weasleys can be safe either. The sheer number of their family is against them as has already been mentioned by Molly herself. And, given how close the Weasley family is to Harry... :scared: Neville would be a sad death and I see your point about his "no mom and pop" thing, but really the two who die who she didn't intend could be found in anyone outside the trio, I think. :sigh:

Oh, God I hope Hagrid doesn't die, although I can certainly see why so many people think he will. I just keep coming back to the fact that although adults LOVE these books, kids too too, and JKR may not want to be too devestating with this story, which is also why I think the trio will be safe.

I think Minerva is at risk, and to answer an earlier post, I think Harry may be destined to be the next headmaster at Hogwarts. I think one or both of the Weasley twins is in big time jeopardy, OR Mr. or Mrs. Weasley. The folks who say there are just too many Weasleys to spare them all have a point, and those four are the ones we're "closest to" after Ron and Ginny. Ginny's fate is really anybody's guess isn't it?

Ugh! July can't get here fast enough!

In my perfect HP world, the Trio lives, Ron & Hermoine marry, as do Harry & Ginny; Harry gets his family and they all live happily ever after. But since Levine was sobbing I don't think I'm getting my way.

I think of Ron in the chess game, sacrificing himself for the mission at hand and wonder if that was foreshadowing a much more important sacrifice to save Harry & Hermoine. I agree that the Weasley's have been fortunate and somebody we love has to go so that rules out Percy. I also wonder if Harry will get his wish and join his family - in death. I think he'll have a family in the end, one way or the other, hopefully with the Weasleys. My guess is the second one is Hagrid; his purpose is really served now that Harry's an adult and Dumbledore's gone.

Hmmm... :no:

Well writen as always!It will really bum me out.........but i agree that Hagrid will die in defense of Harry.I just can't or maybe it is,i don't want to think of the other's that will bite the dust,i've grown so fond of all of them.I'm really concerened for the Weasely twins,to me they fit in the line of her thinking,she was'nt going to kill them off,but something happens,when they come to Harry's aid,and they end up dying...bummer!I hope that i'm wrong on this.I think of the remaining marauders,it would be nice if Lupin got the reprieve. Can't wait till July 21!

I am so glad you are back. I love reading your things. I do hope that Neville is not the one that dies. I did think he was the one that ends up a teacher at Hogwarts. But that is because I like him. As for the rest I think you did a great job. Again I am glad you are back. I would check all the time to see if you had written any thing and glad I checked again tonight.

very nice editorial!

It is interesting that Jo made it clear it was main characters she was going for, but I think there's main characters then there's MAIN characters, if you know what I mean. For me, Dumbledore is the only MAIN character to die so far. Sirius may have been Harry's godfather but he wasn't in the books enough and his death is pretty minor when compared with Dumbledore.

The people I see as the remaining MAIN characters are Harry, Ron, Hermione (well duh), Voldemort, Snape, Hagrid, Ginny and Neville. I feel the fate of these characters is much more crucial to the story than Lupin, the twins, Molly and Arthur, Luna, Tonks, Greyback, Bellatrix among others. Even though Neville was hardly in HBP there's still unfinished business with him, he's still very important.

Jo won't kill characters just for the sake of having a death. What purpose would Luna dying serve? Pointless death is definitely not Jo's style, everything has so much meaning in her writing. That's why the twins won't die either, it would just be needless misery. Ginny's death, on the other hand, would serve a huge purpose, but perhaps Jo wouldn't be so cruel as to have her hero's love killed, leaving him in eternal misery. This is why either Ron or Hermione won't die, it would leave the other forever devastated (and Harry as well, he obviously loves them both).

It's worth noting that the chances of this story having an unhappy ending are extremely close to zero. There's a difference between a sad ending and an unhappy ending, I mean take Lord of the Rings, it's a sad ending because Frodo and the other ringbearers have to leave Middle-earth, leave their friends behind, but this isn't a bad ending, it's perfect, it leaves the other characters with the great prospect of new life. If Hermione died, Ron wouldn't have a new life, he'd be unhappy forever. That's no ending to a story like this. Harry's death, on the other hand, would be more easily accepted, especially if his love Ginny also died. The reader can imagine that they're together.

Harry Potter series is not a happily after series. I just don't see every pair of love relationship play out to be that way. I can totally see Tonks living the rest of her life in solitude and that Lupin accepting her in a relationship at the end of book six is just a temporary relief.
As for Peter Pettigrew, whether he dies or not is not very important, since no one really has his best interest at heart. However, I think that he will come over to the good side before the end due to the end of book three when Dumbledore said, "Pettigrew owes his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your debt....When one wizard saves another wizard's life,it creates a certain bond between them..." Thus, if he dies, it is to help Harry accomplish his mission.
Luna Lovegood, on the other hand, will not die. She is as involved in this war as the other characters. It seems as if she alone has the ability to be passive and even apathetic to the happenings of the world. Her calmness, which makes her very like Dumbledore, stems from the fact that she is above the war. Luna, then, belongs in a time of peace.

i agree with ursula that who lives and who dies will not depend on 'pairs'. That is too ordered and perfect.

I think it's definitely much more tragic to split up the pairs. The epilogue should not be that influential on the story, it just satisfies the readers. But then, im not sure about snape. I think that he needs to die cos there is really nothing else for him in the wizarding world. But that kind of contradicts my above statement.

However, maybe the 'pairing off' is too limiting. eg. just because hermione is ron's partner, does not mean that if she dies there is nothing left for ron.

It was an interesting editorial, but I disagree with the vast majority of it.

I've been convinced since around the end of PoA that Harry is going to die. The fact that Jo wrote an Epilogue doesn't prove anything. In fact, it might be even more interesting should Harry die.

As for Ron and Hermione, I'm not entirely convinced that either of them will die, but if they do die, it doesn't necessarily have to be both of them. It's actually more plausible that only one of them will die, in my humble opinion.

There is a very distinct possibility that one or both of the twins will go, probably just as the plot starts to get heavy towards the middle or at the end. They will, of course, provide the usual comedic relief, but it adds to the whole concept of winning except not if they die at the end.

The same goes for Bill Weasley. The fact that he and Fleur are married doesn't have much weight on whether or not he'll die.

In fact, it's just a blanket statement: just because two characters are in a relationship does not mean that they are safe from death.

I still think Lupin's going to die at some point in the series. Like so many others have already said, it all goes back to the fact that Harry has to have little to no outside aid during his final confrontation, as well as enhancing the Marauder's Tragedy.

Neville is very much up in the air right now. One the one hand, he could easily be killed by Bellatrix Lestrange, but on the flip side of the equation, his father was a brilliant auror and now that Neville's got some confidence, he might very well live up to his grandmother's expectations and demonstrate some of his increasing magical prowess.

Luna Lovegood will probably survive if the twins die, because she is also one of those characters who provides comedic relief. On top of that, she's very insightful, and though she might be just a bit mad, she could very well be a catalyst for certain events once we get further into the book.

Now I just can't wait to find out xD

Bloody Brilliant as always!
I agree that Lupin got the reprieve, but it could also be...dare I say it...TFPWSNBN--I'm convinced he was loyal to Dumbledore after the last month or so of editorials. That's not to say he's good, but I think he's playing LV for a huge fool! Remember the quote in OotP? "The Dark Lord ALMOST always knows when he is being lied to." (Occlumency chapter, American Hardback ed.) Implying that TFP can lie to him (LV) without his knowledge. Dumbledore's ultimate prime directive is what TFP cares about.
Anyway, rant over.
I also think that Hagrid will get the axe. He's around 60, and now that DD's gone, there's just no point...(Skewrts anyone?)

I don't know if Aberforth is important enough to snuff it. I mean, we just get to really meet him in DH--still a possibility, but really no emotional attachment for me.
What about Petunia???? Wouldn't that be sad? I know she was horrible to Harry, but she will give him insight about his mother that no one else can...hmmm.....
I think the two (to die) could also be Fred and George (sniff, sniff). That would be an emotional blow. They have a flair for business, but I think they will change their attitude about the Order, once they see their entire family sticking their necks out...

Great Job, looking forward to your next...
Mommcgonagall


Ok I know this is over a week after her post, but I REALLY like the idea of Petunia being involved. I didn't really think about her or Vernon or fatty mc Dudkins, but, I do think that it would be interesting if Petunia snuffs it. She may not be referred to by JK in her quote, because we know more than 2 people are going to die, c'mon, BUT I think that we should give her some serious consideration.

i also like your line of thinking ticci, it makes sense-the forshadowing with ron. i always think back to that occasion and can never help thinking - was that all for ron?

i mean, that was the most he's done if you think about it. everyone fought in ootp that doesn't count IMHO. i feel like his words echo the overlaying theme of the whole series - it's you that goes on, not me, not hermione, you. (ok paraphrased.)

or maybe it's just rupert grint's 12 yr old performance in the SS movie? hehe.

i also like your line of thinking ticci, it makes sense-the forshadowing with ron. i always think back to that occasion and can never help thinking - was that all for ron?

i mean, that was the most he's done if you think about it. everyone fought in ootp that doesn't count IMHO. i feel like his words echo the overlaying theme of the whole series - it's you that goes on, not me, not hermione, you. (ok paraphrased.)

or maybe it's just rupert grint's 12 yr old performance in the SS movie? hehe.

Great editorial as usual! I'm just not totally convinced that Draco and Snape should be on the evil list. With that in mind, if one of them dies, I believe they would be important characters to consider as one of JKR's two.

I'm glad that you have tackled the Richard and Judy interview with JKR.

I can see your point about the future of the character's after book seven. Having a love interest is only one facet, many other's can be written in. I've talked myself in and out of many theories but I believe you are right about Hagrid. Not because he has no 'future' (Madame Maxime/Grawp) but because he is a main character that would protect Harry and sacrifice his own life. It's also plausible that Hagrid was not originally for the chop.

During this interview JKR also stated that she was sooo bereft by killing this character that her husband suggested not to. JKR stuck to her plan but I think that the only other characters that would cause her such anguish would be the main trio. I don't see the point in killing Ron. Harry - keep changing my mind but at the moment he lives. Hermione - maybe (three's a crowd).

I can see the egg on it's way come July!:relax:

Ron is going to die. Look at all the clues we've been given:

*PS/SS=Ron sacrifices himself in the chess game to let Harry & Hermione go on

*GoF=Ron is the thing Harry would miss the most

*OoTP= Mrs. Weasley's boggart

Also, i think Harry does unfortunatley have to suffer...not everyone is going to survive.:upset:

However the person her husband was concerned about could have been Hagrid, Lupin or Luna as she seems fond of those characters too. Let's hope it isn't one of the students who we are fond of as they have yet to experience life as an adult. Many people think hagrid was always for the chop right from the start so maybe he got the reprieve.

I enjoyed this editorial. Good work.

Before any mention of repreves and what not, i put my money on Hagrid and Lupin dying. And dangit all. Im sticking with that assumption. I don't care if tonks is miserable and has no story. 1. Lupin is a Maurader, and I have never waivered in the idea that ALL the Mauraders must die. It is poetic.

Hagrid's death I feel is critical to the story. He was the first person Harry ever met from the wizarding world. Harry feels an extreamly strong bond of friendship with him. I don't think Hagrid really has a purpose anymore, now that Dumbledore is dead either.

NEXT, Harry has consitantly stepped up to help Hagird. With norbert, clearing Hagrids name for the Chamber of Secrets, saving Buckbeak, standing by Hagrid when news of the giant ancestroy came out, etc. In case you haven't realized my point with that string of events, Harry has helped Hagrid through a big ordeal in EVERY BOOK. This is accumulating to Hagrid Making an ULTIMATE sacrifice for Harry in order to repay him for that kind of friendship and love.

After all, We need these people to die. Otherwise how can we have the beautiful "STAR WARS" ending, where Harry Overcomes evil and then sees everyone he has ever cared about standing next to him in a vision, waving back at him. He needs to see His Parents, Sirius, Remus, Hagrid, and Dumbldeore smiling and waving back at him. And Wormtail is in there too, as the Anakin Skywalker, who came back to the light side. Then he can walk away hand in hand with Nevell, Hermione, Ron, and Ginny! Off to rebuild the wizarding world, and enjoy days of peace.

I must say that I disagree with the list in general - first having Snape on the side of evil (but that's another discussion :)) but second, you have several "minor" characters on the side of good in the list. (Or at least I think they are minor)

Horace, Luna, Aberforth, Alastor, Tonks and Lupin are ALL minor characters. We didn't meet Moody until book 4, Tonks and Luna came with book 5, and Horace came with book 6 - I hardly think we can count them as Major characters. Aberforth we haven't really met at all (at least officially). I could see an argument being made for considering Lupin a major character since we were first introduced in book 3, but he was almost non-existent in book 4, and somewhat more apparent in 5 and 6. However, he really plays a supporting role throughout - basically as a transport vehicle to get other characters around and through the main story line.

I'm not saying that some of these characters won't turn out to be important to getting to the end, but to call them "major" would also be misleading. To include them, you should also include Narcissa, Nott, Crabbe and Goyle Sr., and any of the other various DEs who formed up around the circle in the graveyard.

I think Lupin, Tonks and a few of the others have made more of an impact in the books than the DE's standing around the graveyard in GOF - even Narcissa has made more of an impact........

I think there could be three or four categories

Major - Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Hagrid, Snape, Voldemort, (et al?)

Semi-major - McGonogall, Neville, Luna, Lupin, Tonks, Aberfoth, Molly & Arthur Weasley, Fred And George, Draco, (et al?)

Semi Minor - Bill and Charlie Weasley, Fleur, Madame Maxine, Gawrp, Slughorn, Mundugus, Cenataurs, Flitwick, Sprout etc - the other members, Fenrir and Draco's parents an other Hogwarts students.

Minor - Other DE's and minor MOM staff and other creatures of the Forbidden Forest, people from Hogsmeade, Diagon Alley etc and the Leaky Caudron,

There are others I haven't, or you think are in the wrong group, but now we may have some semblance as to ow to way who may or may not die? Please adjust if you feel necessary and say who you may think will live or die as this may clarify the mystery we are steeped in.

Does anyone still believe in the end of SS theory, that it was all a representation, a foreshadowing of the very end?

I hope that's not how it turns out, I for one would find it very unsatisfactory.

I like it! I think that Ron/Hermione as a pair makes prefect since, as well as the Harry/Ginny sceneario. HOwever i dont think that it will be impossible for the entire Weasly family to make it through the novel. It just dosent seem likely. Neville he could die but it hink he also could have got the reprieve. He has grown big time as a character, and is more involved the further into the series we get. I think he gets his shot at Bellatrix. I think he could become the herbology teacher actually. McGonigal's character is interesting. Snape and Draco i think their fates are kinda togather. Hagrid i think is the most likely to die.

I don't think Snape and Draco are definitely connected. For some reason I like Draco more than Snape, and think Draco could survive before Snape. Maybe that's just because I've seen Draco cry, but I think he has sinned less than Snape (not religiously, in the eyes of the reader), and so could survive easier. Draco is growing, we don't know what he will become. I could see Draco being given a reprieve. We hated him before, so he could have been slated for death, but maybe Jo decided to let him repent somehow.

Does anyone still believe in the end of SS theory, that it was all a representation, a foreshadowing of the very end?

I remember that theory. It's such an odd coincidence how it fell into place: Bellatrix the white queen took down the black knight Sirius, whose relationship to Harry can only be matched by Ron. Thus, Ron has to make a huge self-sacrifice so Harry can checkmate the king. That one? I don't know...

Also, there's been other foreshadowing support for Ron's death (if you remember the Die, Ron, Die bit. I vote that the reprieve goes to Ron.

Fenrir- I've seen a lot of people putting him on the chopping block, but for the same reason I think Aberforth is saved I save Fenrir: He was only so recently introduced! There wouldn't be any emotional response from the audience... No textual support here at all, folks


I may eat my words come the 21st.

I would be thrilled if Fenrir died. I don't think he's a character slated early on to die, but I don't see why he wouldn't. He's horrible, a baby-killer.