Godric Gryffindor's Sword - Excalibur?

I'm sorry if this thread already exists, but here goes. Has anyone noticed how Gryffindor's Sword is very much alike to Excalibur (legendary King Arthur's Sword)? For one, the 19-century poet Tennyson describes the hilt as:

For all the haft twinkled with diamond sparks,
Myriads of topaz-lights, and jacinth-work
Of subtlest jewellery.

And Gryffindor's Sword is inlaid with rubies, no?

Another similiarity, though far-fetched, is the fact that when King Arthur drew Excalibur for the first time, he blinded his enemies. When Harry drew Godric's Sword from the Sorting Hat, the Basilisk was blinded. But sadly, I put down my own idea on that one, for it was Fawkes who blinded the Basilisk. Still, there's hope.

If Godric's Sword really is tied to Excalibur, then it only follows that it will be tossed into some sort of lake. Perhaps the merpeople in the Black Lake will take it (remember a hand caught Excalibur after it was thrown). If this is integral to the plot, I don't know. We can't rule this idea out, though. :rockon:

Godric's sword IMO was representative of Godric's own personal values: Bravery, temperance, gallantry, integrity. The sword wielder should consider all of these. He/she should not consider what they are killing, but what they are allowing to live (temperance). He/she should wield the sword when the cause is just (integrity). He/she should draw the sword only in defense, and for those too weak to defend themselves (gallantry). The wielder should stand strong in the face of adversity (bravery).

Godric's sword IMO was representative of Godric's own personal values: Bravery, temperance, gallantry, integrity. The sword wielder should consider all of these. He/she should not consider what they are killing, but what they are allowing to live (temperance). He/she should wield the sword when the cause is just (integrity). He/she should draw the sword only in defense, and for those too weak to defend themselves (gallantry). The wielder should stand strong in the face of adversity (bravery).

If this is what you believe, then the sword really is a bit like Excalibur. Excalibur is often attributed as the sword that would be in the possession of the true sovereigns of Great Britain, and the characteristics of this sovereignty is similar to the characteristics Godric Gryffindor possessed: bravery, temperance, gallantry, integrity.

I don't know about anyone else, but, even though the four founders were equal in their influence, I've always pictured Gryffindor as being the most "regal" of the quartet.

wow thats deep. Its possible though. But i think maybe JKR got the idea from King Author but in the story they have nothing to do with eachother at all

This is totally possible but I dont think so.

I don't think so, but it's interesting to think about Harry Potter's world in terms of the King Arthur legend. Maybe you could ask a mod to rename this thread to address that?
I've always been fascinated by the fact the Merlin existed, so if there was a Merlin, that must mean that there was a Camelot, a Morgan, and a Lancelot. Interesting.

No, Neither Harry nor Dumbledore is King of England.

Although strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

Although strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
'Elp 'elp I'm bein' repressed!

I think comparing Gryffindor's sword with Excalibur is not very far-fetched, especially after DH. Harry obtains it from a lake as well, though not by chance, but because it has been given to him, with Snape playing the role of the Lady of the Lake this time. In many versions of King Arthur's legend, Excalibur comes from the lake as well and is given to King Arthur. Of course Harry is not king of Britain but King Arthur is supposed to return and save his people when Britain's darkest hour comes. This is quite similar to what Harry actually does. Besides, Dumbledore is definitely a "Merlin" figure, and it's written that he has been awarded the Order of Merlin as well, which implies that the Merlin from the legend in the Potterverse was obviously a member of the wizarding world and therefore real. Excalibur is also often said to have carried an engraving, just like Gryffindor's sword.

Excalibur was a sword of special power that belonged to King Arthur. I think that there would be some similiarities to the Elder Wand, which has a loyalty to those who master it. The sword of Gryffindor belongs to a true Gryffindor, but I don't think it has any special powers. I see more similarities between Excalibur and the Elder wand than between Excalibur and the sword of Gryffindor.

This is a discussion I had elsewhere with two members of CoS, Subtle Science and Chievrefueil. Subtle addressed the idea of the sword being like Excalibur:

In Malory's Morte d'Arthur, it's Sir Bedivere who is asked by the dying Arthur to return Excalibur to the Lady of the Lake; however, Arthur doesn't explain any of this--only tells Bedivere to throw the sword into the water and then tell him what happened. Twice Bedivere doesn't fulfill his duty; he can't bear to throw such a rich, storied weapon into the lake, so he lies to Arthur--who knows full well he's lying and confronts him with his duplicity. The third time, Bedivere does throw Excalibur into the lake, and the Lady's hand rises from the waters and catches the sword.

In earlier, Anglo-Saxon times, weapons gained as much fame as those who wielded them; in Beowulf, Unferth gives Hrunting to Beowulf, to help Beowulf kill Grendel's mother, as Hrunting is a famous sword that better suits the hero Beowulf than it does Unferth. However, Hrunting fails: "here at last/the fabulous powers of that heirloom failed." Great weapons were treated like great warriors--named, honored, and the subject of stories. Usually they were passed down--not necessarily through families, but to the next warrior who was worthy of having such a companion. To bury such a weapon with a warrior or to throw it into a lake in honor of a warrior would be a near unbelievable honor.

Snape's placing the sword in the lake for Harry reminds me more of Excalibur--Harry must pass perils in order to get the sword; both he and Ron pass the magical test, earning them the right to retrieve the sword. Snape gets an interesting role in the story--to be the bearer of the sword in order to deliver it....It's a bit of the Lady and it's a bit of Unferth, with a twist....For instance, Unferth was the rightful owner of Hrunting; he was Hrothgar's (Danes' king) advisor who, when drunk, questioned Beowulf's heroic qualities and got a verba smackdown from Beowulf. Unferth comes off badly in the epic, if one doesn't get to the bit about Hrunting--his handing off that sword to Beowulf is truly an admirable, worthy act......The difference from Snape, though: Snape is not the owner of Gryffindor's sword.

By utilizing this twist, JKR makes Snape a hero as well--because only "need and valor" allows one to remove the sword and use it. Snape ends up a blend of the ancient legends: he falls into the classification of people valorous enough to handle the sword, but he is also the figure who passes the sword on to the one chosen worthy of the weapon as well.


Then: I had posted this here on the Severus Snape thread:

My ideas about Excalibur:

Snape has a plan figured out so that Harry can get the sword in the Forest of Dean. He uses his Patronus and the pool of water, which is an echo of the tale of The Lady of the Lake in British mythology, in which Arthur tells Sir Launcelot to throw his sword into a lake, and a mysterious lady catches it and takes it into the depths.

The "Lady" in this instance would be Lily, through Snape's Patronus. :)

http://www.grahamphillips.net/Trail/7_Excalibur_files/lady_of_the_lake.jpg

In a way, that is foreshadowing for Snape's death, because casting a sword into the water was the way to honor dead warriors. :( But Arthur insisted that his sword be cast away before he died. You could also see the sword as Dumbledore's, with Snape as either Lancelot or Bedivere.

Snape's connection to "Arthur" is that both he and Mr. Weasley were bitten by the giant snake.

It is Sir Launcelot who throws the sword to the Lady of the Lake, and he is the epitomy of courtly romance and chivalry, having been in love with Queen Guinevere, but in an idealistic, loyal way. :tu: :agree: Snape has shown chivalry in HBP to Narcissa Malfoy by taking an "unbreakable vow" to protect her son, similar to courtly love. In DH, we find that Snape has sworn to also protect Lily's son and he does it of his own free will.

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/ent/A0829019.html

Lily is associated with the lake at Hogwarts in SWM, which is nice imagery because Slytherin House is under the lake. I like the combination of the water imagery and the Patronus "made of light," as well as the fiery connotation of the sword of Gryffindor.

The Lily Maid of Astolat

http://images.allposters.com/images/20/wag2032.jpg

Of course, Harry loves "Ginevra" and he gets the sword from the Lake, so he is sort of Lancelot in reverse, while Snape is closer to the legend. :) Harry's story ends in happiness and marriage, and Snape's in self-denial and tragedy.

And my friend, Chievrefueil, who knows alot more about King Arthur than I do, had this to say:


I really loved The Silver Doe and found it magical as soon as I read it because of the Arthurian references. (Arthurian legend was a "hobby" of mine in college.) I think that JKR is just making an allusion to the Arthurian legends - it's not allegorical. There are really too many versions of the stories anyway. In some versions, including in Tennyson's Idylls of the King, Arthur obtains the sword from the Lady of the Lake. To me, Harry following the silver doe, finding the sword in the frozen pool, and being able to take the sword from the pool, as if it was meant for him, suggested his kingliness. The Sword of Gryffindor also follows some of the legend of Excalibur. Only the true king of Britain is entitled to possess Excalibur, just as only a true Gryffindor is entitled to possess the Sword of Gryffindor, as Dumbledore says in CoS. Excalibur is also said to have special magical properties. This would be a difficult point, since magic is part of Harry's natural world anyway, except that the Sword of Gryffindor has been impregnated with Basilisk venom, giving it the special ability to destroy Horcruxes.

I don't think that Snape quite fits into Arthurian legend, except he and Dumbledore could both fill the role of Merlin; though, I think Dumbledore fits better. Merlin was somewhat manipulative for the greater good, though he loved Arthur and was a trusted advisor in most legends. Merlin was undone by love, though. In some legends, he fell in love with Nimue (who is also sometimes the Lady of the Lake) and taught her all his magic, but she betrayed him, magically imprisoning him forever.

. . . In later stories, Lancelot's love for Guinevere was no longer idealistic and was the cause for the downfall of Camelot. I can't remember the specific story, but I believe that some early stories had Lancelot finding the Holy Grail. Later, because of his illicit love for Guinevere, Lancelot was no longer pure enough to find the Grail and his son, Galahad, was created for that purpose. Galahad was the son of Lancelot and Elaine (a different Elaine from the Lady of Shallot in your picture below). Elaine made Lancelot believe that she was Guinevere and that's how she came to bear his son. (Perhaps she used Polyjuice Potion? )

. . . Or, Harry is like Arthur.

In some stories, like The Once and Future King, Arthur is being raised by a foster family and doesn't know his destiny or his heritage. That's very similar to Harry. Although it's been on my bookshelf for ages, I've never actually gotten around to reading The Once and Future King; however the description of the story progression on wikipedia makes it sound similar to the story progression of Harry Potter: "The book begins as a quite light-hearted account of the young Arthur's adventures, Merlyn's incompetence at magic, and King Pellinore's interminable search for the Questing Beast. In parts, it reads almost as a parody of the traditional Arthurian legend by virtue of White's prose style, which relies heavily on anachronisms. However, the tale gradually becomes darker until Ill-Made Knight loses much of the original humor and The Candle in the Wind is mirthless." Not that I would describe DH as "mirthless," there was actually quite a bit to make me smile in DH, but, as a whole, the Harry Potter series definitely begins in a lighthearted manner, gradually gets darker, and is very heavy in DH until the Epilogue.

Can't be....the last time I saw Excalibur was in Stargate SG1, and they took it to Area 51!

Perhaps JKR got the idea of Godric Gryffindor's sword from King Arthurs Excalibur. It cetainly isn't exactly alike though.

I always had a feeling that Godric's sword was related to Excalibur. They are both magical and it was said that the sword was old. Perhaps Godric was a discendent of King Arthur?
This would make and excellent spin-off from the Harry Potter series.

I don't think it was Excalibur, but it was supposed to bring that to mind.

wow, i just came back and found my thread again. Thanks to everyone who responded, a lot of deep thoughts there! Anyway, when i saw my first post, and the part about the lake, my mind flashed back to the Forest of Dean. That was my first and only theory about the books - and it came true, in a way. Thanks again!

Although strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

'Elp 'elp I'm bein' repressed!

LOL :lol:

But I do think that Godric's sword and the Excalibur are very similar.
Do I think it was JKR's intention, no.
Do I believe she got the idea from the Excalibur, no.
But it still is very interesting.

I see the sword as a plot device, and not really representative of anything. It was required to destroy the Horcruxes (consider that it sat on a shelf from book 2 to...book 6, was it?). It's also a very nice hook to keep the reader interested, as we continually wonder when the sword will do something incredible. In the end it doesn't. IMO, it does not have the same mystical, almost sentient quality that Excalibur has. Is it Excalibur? No. A Topaz is blue and to my knowledge Jacinth is yellow. Gryffindor's sword had rubies - red stones, matching the red and gold house colours.

This is an interesting idea. Though I don't think Gryffindor's sword and Excalibur are the same sword, both are legendary in their own right, and both are very important in their respective stories. Gryffindor's sword was more of a symbol of a true Gryffindor, because those who are able to pull it from the Sorting Hat are indeed true Gryffindors, and are able to do a lot of damage to the bad guys with it.

If Godric's Sword really is tied to Excalibur, then it only follows that it will be tossed into some sort of lake. Perhaps the merpeople in the Black Lake will take it (remember a hand caught Excalibur after it was thrown). If this is integral to the plot, I don't know. We can't rule this idea out, though.
Wow this is pretty good insight in light of this post being made prior to the release of DH. Now that we know that it was hidden in the pool of water and was pulled out by Harry and Ron. I wouldn't have put it past Jo to mirror Excalibur, but I don't think it was actually meant to be Excalibur from Arthurian legend.

But, really nice catch! I always thought there were a lot of similarites but I never knew about the body of water or lake part of the legend. :tu:

While I don't think that it is Excalibur, I see where that thought comes from. Certainly the sword represents the fact that only the worthy can truly achieve it's loyalty. Only the worthy can summon the sword of Godric Gryffindor, something like Wart pulling the sword from the stone. Some things, some people can't do.

But there, I think, is where the similarity ends.

The general idea, like vampiricduck says, is the same and of course Harry's story does share a lot of similarities with Arthur's, or any 'hero' story from ancient times onwards down to Star Wars and Buffy the Vampire Slayer- I can't imagine J.K. Rowling didn't think of the link to Excalibur. However, the sword of Gryffindor can come out of the hat to the aid of any worthy Gryffindor- we've seen it with Harry and Neville, and I have no doubt Professor McGonagall, Hermione, Seamus, Ginny or the twins- or any true Gryffindor, really- could have summoned it had they been in similar danger and in need of help. It's not as if only Harry can wield it, though it does serve as proof of where his loyalties truly lie. Excalibur, on the other hand, could only be pulled from its stone by Arthur and it was meant to signal his singular status as the rightful king- not, as in Harry's case, a member of a collective body of people (Gryffindors).

There are some similarities but still they're quite different.

Although the swords might share similar storylines to their tales, the Lady of Lake and her magic of the pagan beliefs kept that sword safe. I doubt the merpeople would be kind enough to watch over Godric's sword.

I'm sorry if this thread already exists, but here goes. Has anyone noticed how Gryffindor's Sword is very much alike to Excalibur (legendary King Arthur's Sword)? For one, the 19-century poet Tennyson describes the hilt as:

For all the haft twinkled with diamond sparks,
Myriads of topaz-lights, and jacinth-work
Of subtlest jewellery.

And Gryffindor's Sword is inlaid with rubies, no?

Another similiarity, though far-fetched, is the fact that when King Arthur drew Excalibur for the first time, he blinded his enemies. When Harry drew Godric's Sword from the Sorting Hat, the Basilisk was blinded. But sadly, I put down my own idea on that one, for it was Fawkes who blinded the Basilisk. Still, there's hope.

If Godric's Sword really is tied to Excalibur, then it only follows that it will be tossed into some sort of lake. Perhaps the merpeople in the Black Lake will take it (remember a hand caught Excalibur after it was thrown). If this is integral to the plot, I don't know. We can't rule this idea out, though. :rockon:

i do not think that gryffindors' sword is the same as excxalibur
it may very well be similar and have very similar magical proplerties, but they are definately not the same sword

Wow, this is amazing insight. I true love Arthurian myths and I can't believe I didn't see any sort of connection between the two. Though like others here I have to agree, that while Gyffindor sword has many similar qualities to Excalibur, I don't think it is per se Excalibur itself.

I think we see the most connection in DH with the whole Gryffindor sword and it being in the frozen lake, which ties into the whole Lady of the Lake.

It's not hard to see how you came to this conclusion, but I think both the swords are legendary in their own right. While they seem similar, both have different qualities that make them truly unique in and of themselves.

It's not just a link or tip of the hat to Excalibur.
Special, magic swords are a staple of European mythology and folklore. There are several other examples.

You have the famous sword named "Hrunting", given to Beowulf by Unfurth in the quest to defeat Grendel's mother. (Though it was ineffective against her, a giant's sword found in her lair did the job)

In Norse mythology, special swords are reasonably commonplace, such as "Gram", (AKA "Balmung") used by Sigurd to slay the dragon Fafnir. It could purportedly cleave an anvil in two with one fell swoop.

And more recently, in Lord of the Rings, Frodo wields "Sting", which glows blue when Orcs are nearby, and also does extreme damage to the Great Spiders such as Shelob.
And then there's the legendary swords "Anduril", wielded by Aragorn, future King of Gondor, and "Glamdring", whose jeweled hilt was marked with runes, wielded by Gandalf himself.

I love this discussion it's so interesting. I've always noticed the similarities between the sword of Gryffindor and Excalibur and, while I wouldn't say it's likely, their being the same sword is a cool idea.

Especially with the true King pulling the sword from the stone, and the true Gryffindor pulling the sword from the hat. Many parallels indeed...
Fascinating!