Discussion: Alastor "Mad Eye" Moody's Death

This thread is to discuss the death of Mad Eye Moody.

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Questions:

1. How did you react when Mad Eye died?

2. What foreshadowing is there in the series for his death?

3. How did his death impact the story?

I think his death was a little unneccessary, because the trio were on their own for most of the story having mad Eye alive somewhere else wouldn't have made much difference. I felt that Moody's death, as with many others, were done just for the sake of the death, and that death didn't contribute anything to the story.

However, I think Moody would have wanted to go like that.

I was sad to see him die, but he was taken out by Voldemort himself, which is some kind of warped honour! I think it was necessary - it had to be shown just how dangerous it was.

Personally, I think Moody's death was hardly a surprise. As for his not going out in a heroic moment, I think the point Rowling was making over and over in the novel is no matter how personally heroic the characters may be, war sometimes claims characters in less than heroic fashion. Fred certainly didn't go out in some grand gesture. Given Moody's resume it would figure he would do something spectacular, but instead he was hit by a curse and knocked off his broom.

I was rather suprised when Mad Eye was said to be dead. Although, I did expect someone to die with the seven Potters plan. Just came as a shock with Mad Eye seeming tough.

For me, Moody was one of the most likely to get axed. I wasn't surprised that it was him that didn't make it back. He didn't fear death at all and probably just wishes he could've taken down more DEs than he did.

I actually cried; I guessed I'm emotional like that.

I liked Moody a lot and what Tonks said about how Voldemort would think Harry was with the toughest of the people made the death even sadder. The death showed that even the toughest can die. He couldn't really fight back, as he had to pretend that he was trying to take the real Harry somewhere safe. Fletcher probably did not make matters better as I imagine him scared and trembling behind Moody the moment the Death Eaters appeared.

At least he went out fighting. I think it really sets the dangerous tone of the book to have a major death so early in the book. You get a real sense that this it the final chapter and all bets are off.

I thought Umbridge stealing his eye was an unnecessary and gruesome touch though. *shudder*

This thread is to discuss the death of Mad Eye Moody.

The Forum Rules (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=22999) are in operation as always. In addition be aware of our Conduct Notice (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=106968) for participation in the Deathly Hallows Forums.

Questions:

1. How did you react when Mad Eye died?

2. What foreshadowing is there in the series for his death?

3. How did his death impact the story?




1. Actually wasn't as bothered as I was when Sirious & DD died. I liked Moody but never warmed to him as much as his predecessor, Lupin. But still a sad loss!

2. Hmm I'd have to think about that one!

3. Not too sure... another thing I'd have to think about. I really want to read the entire series now. :D

Although somewhat surprising, it was an incredibly fitting death. Moody was always talking about precautions - every time they left somewhere Moody knew they were in danger of being killed. Therefore, it had to happen this last time. He was, as the characters said, the strongest of the Guard (which is why, supposedly, Voldemort went after him first), so his death was necessary for everyone to move on (he was the last true 'powerhouse'). I have a feeling that JKR wanted to eliminate a large amount of knowledge of what happened last time. Moody would have known what to expect better than anyone but Dumbledore, having been in the Order for the first war. Therefore, Moody had to die to make it more difficult for the Order. His death was a nicely planned one, and it was honorable. As Virtuousdream said, being killed by Voldemort is, somewhat, honorable, and it would have been the way Moody would have wanted to go. He would not have wanted to die from Severus Snape or, say, Yaxley. Therefore, JKR still had enough kindness to let Moody die with pride.

As for foreshadowing... How about Moody being locked in his own trunk, being held hostage by a Death Eater, for about 10 months?

I dont know why, but i was in denial. i was sure that he would reappear later.

Yeah, I couldn't quite believe it myself for couple of chapters ahead. It was very sudden, although not unlikely at all. Couldn't cry for him though, but felt great respect all the same.

It was sad to me i really liked his character. His death showed early on a couple of things 1. just how dire the war was at the time and 2. even the toughest of the Order can be taken out. I believe he died exactly the way he wanted with the exception of not taking enough DE's with him.

I didn't cry for this one. Certainly did not expect the death, but accepted it all the same. He was killed with honor, by the dark lord himself. I think that's pretty close to how he would have wanted to go. Still have enourmous respect for him, though.

I don't think his death had any impact on the story, really...Harry, Ron, and Hermione did just fine being helped by the remaining Order members. I was sort of saddened by his death, I found Moody a likeable character...maybe not a necessary death, but it was to be assumed that someone would have to get injured/killed during the whole decoy operation and fleeing the Death Eaters. I just wish he could've died later on and played a larger role in the book.

I really liked Moody so I was quite sad when he died. However, I am gald he died and not Hagrid, whom I was so convinced was dead.

He did die in battle and I think that was his prefered way to go.

I was damned sad he got the axe. He was always one of my favorite characters and his death was treated far too lightly. Arguably the greatest Auror gets a few remarks? A great mismatch in this final installment.

I was as certain about Moody dying as I was Voldemort. Moody was one of those true warrior types (alas the Fallen Warrior) that are just destined to die in battle.

The only surprise for me was that he didn't go out in a blaze of glory like I thought he would. Then again, fabled warriors don't always die heroic deaths and I guess that was the point.

1. How did you react when Mad Eye died?
I didn't cry, which is surprising, but I did however sit there frozen for almost 10 minutes, repeating the word "no" over and over probably at least a thousand times. He was always alive, I mean, he could just never die, no matter what he went though or what ever happened, he always survived. I was in shock for the longest time.

2. What foreshadowing is there in the series for his death?
I'm not really sure if I can think of any at the moment. I'm sure if I go back and look at the previous books, I'lll come across something.

3. How did his death impact the story?
It proved that no one is safe. Moody was the toughest, strongest person they had, and yet even he died. Everybody is vulnerable, everyone can die. But I agree with what everyone said, that he went the way he wanted to go, by Voldemort himself.

It shocked me that someone so powerful would die so soon in the novel. I did about three doubletakes, and my jaw literally dropped of it's own account.

I was saddened to read his death. I think that his death happening so early in the book, though, was to emphasize the point that no holds were barred (for the reader). For Harry, it showed him that it was all for real. The only real forshadowing I can think of is him being locked in the trunk for the school year in book four.

I thought something might happen to him, but I was rather surprised that it happened so quickly I thought that it would have happened in battle, not on a broom. :S

1. How did you react when Mad Eye died?

Not sad. Because I never really was attatched to his character.

2. What foreshadowing is there in the series for his death?

Just that there were many more deaths to come.

3. How did his death impact the story?

Didnt affect the story much IMO. Just that anybody can die at any time.

Questions:

1. How did you react when Mad Eye died?
I was a little taken aback. This is a guy who took down so many dark wizards, some of them even took pieces of his flesh with them. He had scars, bumps, bruises, and marks all over him, he was one of the most powerful wizards in the order, and yet he still dies. I suppose it was fitting that Voldemort killed him directly. It would have taken nothing but a powerful wizard to kill Alastor Moody.

2. What foreshadowing is there in the series for his death?
EVERY scene Moody was ever in he talked about death. When he helped rescue Harry from the Dursleys in Order of the Phoenix, he said "if one of us dies..don't break ranks!" Tonks laughed at him and made it into a joke, but he was being incredibly serious. As it turns out, he gets killed while riding his broom rescuing Harry again. He died doing what he loved though, pursuing and battling dark wizards.

3. How did his death impact the story?
I think this was an extremely key death. Everyone was stunned when he never showed up at the Burrow. They were all a little confused and just frankly shocked when Bill had said Moody was dead. Moody was one of the most powerful wizards in the Order, nobody expected him to die. It showed that power and skill mean nothing. Even the best wizards could die. Anyone can go at any time.

i also thought that some one was going to get the boot with all the harry's flying around. I was just hoping it would be Dung. It was the begining of the tears for me.

I so thought Mad-Eye would live on forever.

I didn't even cry at his death; I was in a state of total shoch. I think I just looked at Bill's words, and wasn't able to process it...sad..unexpected...

and how dare Umbridge take his eye and stick on her door to spy on basic slaves?

why didn't jkr kill umbridge? she needed to die!

In all honesty, moodys death didnt surprise me much. he was a warrior and he died in battle. and its no surprise that no one short of voldemort himself could have killed moody.

Everyone keeps saying peoples deaths were unneccessary. Its making me kinda mad. This is a war what do you expect? Bunny rabbits and sunshine? His death in my opinion showed that this was a serious war. The most harded of Fighters could die it showed. It was very necessary! What did everyone think in DH that everyone was gonna live or only bad guys where going to die?

I thought Mad-Eye's death was kind of surprising and very sad. Losing him was a huge blow for the Order - he knew so much, and he was the one who was the most cautious and clued-up, I think. And the fact that he died because Mundungus cleared off made me angry, not that I expected anything more from him! :lol:

Another absolutely useless death. I agree with whoever said JKR was just hunting around for people to kill "cuz it's a war and in war people die" and Moody was chosen. Just like Hedwig, Dobby, Burbage, Creevy and the 49 other people who died at the castle, etc. That is in contrast to the carefully planned deaths like Lupin/Tonks, Fred, Snape, Peter and other specific DE's/Voldy.

'When 13 dine together. The first one to rise is the first one to die.

Forshadowing? Quick!! Someone check if he was the first one to rise in the Dursley's kitchen!

I dont know why, but i was in denial. i was sure that he would reappear later.


Me too. I was like, Wth? Why give such a character an off screen, or should I say, off page, death? I was beginning to think Bill and Fleur were polyjuiced Death Eaters lieing to them because

1. Kingsley was absolutely mad about checking EVERYONE and making sure they were who they looked like and when he left, that's when they arrived and nobody checked them
2. Both of them arrived unharmed?.....Seemed a lil unlikely.

I was in total denial myself and refused to believe he was dead until I finished the book.

1. I was not extremely upset, he wasn't my favorite character. I was in denial of his death for quite awhile because Ron was. I guess I never learn from Harry's mistakes.

2. I think the trip from Privet Drive to Grimmauld Place in OoTP was foreshadowing of his death. He kept saying "if any of us dies" and everyone else was laughing him off. This time, however, everyone was in real danger, and Moody was the one who died.

3. I don't know how his death affected the story. I guess he was just the first casualty (along with George's ear) and brought everyone (in the book, that is) to reality.

How did I feel about it? Well, after telling myself that the chase would make a great opening to the movie, I just though "wait a second, Mad-Eye's dead? Oh. Best put my best sombre face on then...". I always found him slightly too obsessed with his "Constant Vigilance" for my liking. Needed to lighten up.

I was only mildly sad that he died - it did make sense that he would die in battle (in a way, the broomstick escape was a battle). It's a minor miracle that the Order didn't lose more than Mad-Eye and an ear in the escape.
Clearly the DE's recovered Mad-eye's body, because they had his eye in Umbridge's office.

I was stunned. Mad-Eye was one of those really strong characters, and I just didn't expect him to die. I don't think there was any foreshadowing of his death, and I also think it didn't impact the story much.

Is Mad Eye really dead? This baffled me and obviously now that the series is over, it doesn't need to be answered. But when they first arrived at Grimauld Place, it was Mad Eye Moody's voice they heard asking for Severus Snape. IT was Mad Eye's protection enchantment. I thought once a person died, their magic spells died with them? And all they ever found was Mad Eye's Eye! So, is he really dead?

I was sad but more so astonished by Mad eye death. It was very significant because, it really showed or foreshadowed the danger soon to come. I was hoping he would come back, but I did that for all the good characters that died. RIP moody.:upset::upset:

Had the same thought ... I felt that with the body never turning up that there was still a chance. When Harry seen the eye on Umbridge's door and then passed a man with a 'bandage over his eye' on the way to Gringotts I felt that MEM was still around. Figured the curse had only hit his magical eye and he'd somehow survived the fall. Scratch that theory ... Part of me hoped that Mad Eye was the leak/traitor in the OotP too ... as the whole Mundungus (sp?) revelation was a bit of a let down.

very depressing.

I loved mad eye

I hate dung even more...grrr

At first, I didn't think he was dead, and didn't until 3 quarters of the book were done. It was sad, but since he was basically the most powerful member left of the OOTP, he had to go.

I was shocked that such an important character would die so early.

Foreshadowing, hmm. We probably expected him to die since he may have seen the most trouble in the lot. Probably how we want to see he die rather then in his sleep.

When he died just after Hedwig it was almost a test to see what Harry could handle. Would he strive to overcome, or not. And he did overcome it.

Moody wouldn't have wanted to go like that, he would've wanted to die in a proper duel, but i guess his death was good enough, I think it was a bit unneccesary though, he always seemed so untouchable, just like Dumbledore and Snape

This death let me know J.K was playing about just "two main characters". I was shocked but at the same time Mad Eye was the ultimate soldier and fought to his death. He was apart of the resistence.

Man' its going to be many tears when this movie comes out!

1. How did you react when Mad Eye died?

It was shocking. It was so soon after Hedwig's death. I didn't expect it. I was sad. I liked Mad-Eye.

3. How did his death impact the story?

I don't believe that he died in vain. I think it's an honorable way to die (battling against Voldemort) and that's probably how he wanted to die anyway. It jolted Harry and made him more persistent to defeat Voldemort and it got him more ready for the deaths that were about to come.

Mad Eye's death was, it seems, inevitable. As he was the last major link from the frist war with Voldemort and the current one.

I was happy to see that he went out like he would've wanted to, at the hands of a powerful enemy.

And i must admit, the way in which he was killed(curse to the face from Voldemort, then 1000+ foot fall from a broom) was that of a soilder. I appreiciated that fact.

1. How did you react when Mad Eye died?

I was a little surprised. I didn't think the deaths would start so soon and I certainly didn't expect Mad-Eye to be one of the first to go.

2. What foreshadowing is there in the series for his death?

The shadowy figures in the Foe Glass in GoF.

3. How did his death impact the story?

Well, the impact on me was this: I spent a good 10 chapters going "That's IT?! They don't even find his BODY?!" I was totally irked that he was gone so quickly and when Harry found his eye in Umbridge's door I thought there would be something more, but no. Edit: Mad-Eye's eye in Umbridge's door was very ech, by the way.

In general, I think Mad-Eye's death was just one of many signifiers in those early chapters that not even the most seasoned witch or wizard was ready for this fight. It had the effect of casting a pall over Harry's departure from the Dursley's, which should have been triumphant, I think.

1. How did you react when Mad Eye died?

I was a bit sad..and kinda like..what?? this early??
also people are saying that he would've wanted to go this way...like someone else said.I don't think he would've..I mean yes he was trying to help Harry but Voldemort hit him with a killing curse in the air when he wasn't really "dueling".....from what it sounded like at least when Bill told the story...:)


2. What foreshadowing is there in the series for his death?

NO

3. How did his death impact the story?

I don't know.....I didn't think it was much..cus in the others Moody was never in it much..he would see Harry maybe in the begining then the end or the middle Moody or right around Christmas...other then that he wasn't in the book alot...and I do NOT count the fake one in the 4th book.

I think his death was a little unneccessary,

I also thought that his death was unessisairy. However, it did happen. And, unexpectedly.

I wasn't so much horrified by the fact that he died, but more by what happened after he died. The fact that they couldn't find his body, and then Harry found his eye on Umbridge's door, sickened me. It was a total defilation of his body, and it was so sad that he never had a proper burial. Harry burying the eye in the middle of nowhere, where no one could go to pay last respects was one of the saddest things in the book for me. It really emphasized the cruelty of war.

At least he went out fighting. I think it really sets the dangerous tone of the book to have a major death so early in the book. You get a real sense that this it the final chapter and all bets are off.

I thought Umbridge stealing his eye was an unnecessary and gruesome touch though. *shudder*

Agreed, in fact that whole chapter was major creepy and horrific what with the flying creepy Voldemort and DEs, Hedwig's getting AKed and then blown up and everything else. It definitely set the transition to war and 'kill or be be killed' scenario for the rest of the book.

I really hope that it's just as creepy and horrific a scene in the movie!

I also thought that his death was unessisairy. However, it did happen. And, unexpectedly.

I don't think that I would call it unnecessary. I think that someone had to die in that attempt to get Harry to safety. There were too many Death Eaters around, too many spells being cast, for no one to die. It would have made it seem a bit too easy if they had all made it out alive. And Moody was kind of dispensible. Not that I didn't love his character, because I did. But you could get rid of him without too much of a problem.

Moody always seemed like the kind of person who could survive anything. I do wonder what happened to his body and how Umbridge ended up with his eye! That was terrifying and morbid!
It did set the tone for the book I felt, to have such an early death of someone we as readers and Harry considered to be so powerful.

Mad-Eye Moody's death was not needed in terms of plot. It was totally and completely in terms of the "you lose precious lives in a war" thing. He was the first Auror we knew and...when you come to think of it, no character who made a late entry in the series has died. All the deaths have been of old-timers, of long-known-and-loved characters. Harry's burying his magical eye was a comfort.

Mad-Eye Moody's death was not needed in terms of plot. It was totally and completely in terms of the "you lose precious lives in a war" thing. He was the first Auror we knew and...when you come to think of it, no character who made a late entry in the series has died. All the deaths have been of old-timers, of long-known-and-loved characters. Harry's burying his magical eye was a comfort.
Tonks and Scrimgeour weren't old-timers. But besides that it is books 1-3...But really, we only met a few people each book.

1. How did you react when Mad Eye died?

A death so early in the book. :( I thought something must've happened when they all waited for Mundungus and Moody to arrive for so long. At least he died in a heroic way - he was killed by Voldemort himself, which points out how powerful and important Mad-Eye was (we know that the Dark Lord kills only extraordinary powerful wizards and he leaves the rest to the Death Eaters).
And there wasn't much he could do - he was flying on a broomstick. He was counting on Mundungus to help him but was betrayed. :/

2. What foreshadowing is there in the series for his death?

I have no idea... honestly. Well, he was old and he was a fighter so we may have predicted that he'd die in a battle. Nothing prepared me for what happened, though.


3. How did his death impact the story?

He was wise and, as I said, extremely powerful wizard. I think JKR "killed" him because he might have taken Dumbledore's position as a mentor (not that successfully but still... ). With him out of the way there's hardly any old, experienced and powerful wizard left from the Order.

Moody knew what he was getting into - he was a marked man from the off - remember, half the cells in Azkaban were filled because of him (Ron to Harry, GoF). It was obvious once those people escaped they'd be gunning for him. Combine that with the fact that he was such a powerful auror,the Death Eaters wrongly but logically figured he's be the one trusted to guard Harry over anyone else, which is why Voldemort went after him in the first place. Moody no doubt knew exactly that.
The sad thing is, if he HAD been the one with Harry, he'd probably have survived as Harry would've fought back instead of that cowardly idiot Mundungus just scaring easily and leaving Alastor to it.
The whole point of his death so early was to make us realise 'OK kids, we're not on your average adventure here.' You knew then and there that there was no way only two characters would be going.
Not finding the body to give him a burial was distressing, but unfortunately not unexpected - remember who we're dealing with here. The Death Eaters were entirely likely to keep it as a trophy and to make him suffer the indignity of not having the heroes' burial he deserved.

1. How did you react when Mad Eye died?
I was so shocked when he died. I thought he would for sure be the head of the Order after Dumbledore died. He was always the one leading the plans, coming up with the safest measures, always looking out for Harry and the others. I couldn't believe he died, and so soon in the book. I'm pretty sure I cried after we found out of his death... at that point I knew that no one was safe.

2. What foreshadowing is there in the series for his death?
I'm absolutely horrible with foreshadowing...

3. How did his death impact the story?
His death really impacted the story because all of the Order members looked up to him and depended on him for a plan of action. He was always the most cautious one, making sure that everyone was safe. If he had not died so soon, I feel that there wouldn't have been as many deaths later on.

Actually I'm quite surprised it got as much attention as it did. Nobody could have predicted it, there was no foreshadowing. IMO It was a completely pointless death. And I don't mean that as in it shouldn't have happened. that's obvious. But I mean - and I don't mean to sound heartless saying this - who in the fandom really cared about the fate of Mad-Eye Moody? If I'm honest Rowling paid way too much attention to his death. It almost seemed to take away from the more important deaths that were to come later on in the book. Almost. I suppose she was just trying to find a definite way to wrap up his story line. There's nothing more definite than death.

I loved Moody! I was really sad when he died!
What I'm wondering, is how Umbridge got his eye. She's not a Death Eater, right? Don't we know this for a fact?

1. How did you react when Mad Eye died?


I had always suspected that he wouldn't survive in the end, but it was a big loss for the Order. Not really a shock though, hate to say it but as a character he was disposable, he didn't have a major plot line. Leaders are always dropping off early on.

2. What foreshadowing is there in the series for his death?

No idea... as an former auror and some who loves to take risks it was inevitable I guess that he would die.

3. How did his death impact the story?

He was the natural leader of the Order, but because the story is from Harry's perspective we haven't really seen how his death influenced the Order of the Phoenix. He was naturally very much missed at the battle of Hogwarts. In the chaos there he would have been a real asset.

Must we answer the questions? :lol:

I felt it ironic that the man who preached "Constant vigilance!" was in the end betrayed by a frightened theif who Disapparated at a critical moment.

However, he had to know that he would be the prime target. And it quickly set the tone for the book, especially atop Charity Burbage's death.

1. How did you react when Mad Eye died?
My favorite character was Mad Eye...I was crushed. "Constant vigilance!", is one of my favorite quotes from the books.

2. What foreshadowing is there in the series for his death?
That he has lived on the edge of death for so long...cheating it so many times.

3. How did his death impact the story?
A powerful auror in the battle for good was lost. It made the fight much harder, and probably cost more lives.

Questions:

1. How did you react when Mad Eye died?

2. What foreshadowing is there in the series for his death?

3. How did his death impact the story?



1. I'm still in denial. I think Mad-Eye is alive....How about that beggar in Diagon Alley with the bloody bandage over one eye? It would be a good place to hide, right out in the open....and his enchantments on #12 survived....

2. I dont know. He's a vigilante, a true warrior. I'd need a re-read on this one.

3. It deeply impacted the other members of the Order. With Dumbledore gone, Mad-Eye would be the new patriarch of the group. It just showed how powerful the Death Eaters were and everyone's vulnerability/mortality.

CONSTANT VIGILANCE!

It was almost inevitable that Mad Eye would die. Anyone who could provide genuine protection and guidance to Harry was killed off one by one, so Mad Eye's death was no surprise. It did bother me a bit that his death was touched on so briefly but there were so many deaths in this final book that weren't given the full treatment that they would have gotten in earlier books.

His death just intensified the impression of Harry being abandoned and left to rely soley on himself in his final battle with LV.

1. How did you react when Mad Eye died?
It was sad... I didn't think that he would die.

2. What foreshadowing is there in the series for his death?
I don't remember... I should re-read to know it.

3. How did his death impact the story?
It makes the Order realise how powerful the Death Eaters are and that anybody of them can be killed.

1. How did you react when Mad Eye died?

I didn't feel anything. I accepted that he was dead even though I liked Mad-Eye... He died honourably... and by the Dark Lord himself... who better to get killed by?

2. What foreshadowing is there in the series for his death?

Can't think of anything right now... I'll have to re-read some of the books and Ill have this at the back of my mind...


3. How did his death impact the story?


Well it shocked everyone... he was the last person you would expect to die seeing as he was so tough... but it shows that no one is safe as long as the Dark Lord lives...


Stupid Mundungus...

Shortly after Mad-Eye Moody's death, Ron and Hermione suggested in the Burrow that he might still be alive. The exact quote I think was:

'We were just talking about Mad-Eye' Ron told Harry'I reckon he might have survived' p. 82 UK Ed.

After this little dialogue, the trio never mentioned this little theory again. Most of the readers may have discarded this piece of information shortly afterwards, but knowing JKR's style, I was sure that it was to come up again later on in the book.

But it never did.

We were left to wonder the fate of Mad-Eye, with no clear conclusion being drawn by the end of the book. It seems extremely unlikely for JKR to drop such a hint, and not follow up on it. Did she perhaps forget about it? The only follow up we received was Mad-Eye Moody's eye-glass being in the Ministry of Magic, but this is hardly the sort of conclusion to be expected after a typical JKR hint. I for one, was expecting Mad-Eye to re-join the battle at Hogwarts, perhaps saving a few students or Order members. He was, after all, one of the most feared Aurors of all time. Thoughts?

His death completely shocked me cos it happened so early on and with a character I thought was indestructible. I think there was some quite blatant foreshadowing in OOTP during the advance guard scene when he says something like 'if one of us dies don't break formation'. And then we've got the exact same situation - members of the Order escorting Harry from Privet Drive - and Moody's the one to die.
There is a bit when they're about to break into Bella's vault when one of the beggers is described as having a bandage over one eye; I thought that might be Moody for a while but then thought better of it. Why would he be living like that?
I think the scene with Ron arguing for him still being alive was kinda JK's nod to the fans about their level of obsession over trying to prove that DD and Sirius were still alive. Kinda like the nod to shippers in HBP when Harry talks about how he always thought Filch and Pince would go well together.

Hi,

I hope this is not a duplicate thread. I don't see it anywhere.

Moody got killed. According to book six, his spells should have been broken when he died yet his protective spells at Grimauld Place continued to work.

Is this explained anywhere or is it just more evidence that Hallows is sloppily written and just thrown together?

Apparently, some spells are designed to outlast the caster (like permanent sticking spells, or the protective spells at hogwarts, or item enchantments like mr. Weasleys car), while other spells are more temporary/dependant on the caster being present, and die with him (imperius curse, fullbody bind, etc)

So, no. Don't think it's an 'error' or sloppily written at all.

Mad-Eye intended for his spells to last even after his death. Who's paranoid now?!

We never even heard of spells ending when the caster died until the end of HBP, and the Bodybind Dumbledore put on Harry was a simple spell, never intended to be permanent. Moody's were different.

I believe some spells are made to last after the death of the wizard that casted it. Take Hermione case, for instance, she made a spell on her parents with the intention that the spell could last after her death, because she wanted to protect them. She mentioned that if she died they would keep living happy without knowing that one day they had a daughter. So why don't think that Moody would do the same with important spells that were used to protect others, knowing that in war times he could die any time? For me is very clear that he put a spell on the house that would last after his death.

I've noticed that the spells that lift when the caster dies tend to be those placed on a person rather than on objects or places. Those cast on objects/places seem to be the more permanent ones.

I agree with Gestahl. Moody, being constantly vigilant, and always aware that he could die at anytime, would have wanted to be sure that his spells would work even after his death.

And then there's always the less believable theory that the one eyed beggar in Diagon Alley was Moody.

There isn't a rule that all spells cease to exist after the caster dies.

REMINDER:

The goal of CoS is to encrouage freindly debate, but some of these posts aren't friendly and heading towards being rude.

Please be respectful of each other's opinions.

I'm not sure if it is explained anywhere, but I know the sticking charm lasted at Grimmauld Place after Sirius and his mother died. Her portrait is still stuck on the wall screaming at people and in Sirius's bedroom, that picture that Harry found stuck to the wall would not come off either. So, it could possibly be error, but I think we were meant to interpret that he put the protection spells on the house with the intention of them possibly outlasting him. B/c there is evidence in HBP & DH that spells can outlast their caster.

I agree with cybobbie on this. I think that the intent of the caster probably has something to do with whether the spell lasts after death. The whole point of something like a permanent sticking charm is that it can NEVER be removed, so it would have to carry on after death since that's what the caster wanted. Moody would have foresight enough to realize that he could die in the fight against Voldemort and wouldn't have wanted to leave the old Headquarters unprotected. Hogwarts is another good example. The protections around the castle were presumably cast by some past headmaster, perhaps one of the founders, and they have not come down.

yeah, i would have to agree with Raveneye, in that spells on people fade, but not places or things

I believe JKR wrote as it convenienced her so sometimes things seem a bit off. However, since it was her magical world she could make things work however she wanted.

The protective spells weren't really about convenience though. All the spells seem to follow the rules that RavenEye suggested. The spells that Sirius's father placed on Grimmauld Place did not lift after his death, and that became one of the reasons why the Order set up headquarters there. The enchantments over Hogwarts do not lift after the death of whoever set them either. Moody just added more enchantments to the security measures already still in place.

I thought Umbridge stealing his eye was an unnecessary and gruesome touch though. *shudder*

I agree that WAS a litle creepy.


ButI was sad to see him go. He could have helped later on I think.

but the only time is was mentioned was at Dumbledore's death and it was stated that the spell ended at the caster's death. That is what was said. Anything else is just conjecture and trying to read into the story a logic that is lacking.

Rowlings simply messed up on this point. It can't be both ways.

Yes, lets all pick out the so called "mistakes " that Jo made in her story and forget what the whole point of the HP was..

As explained above by many people, there is no mistake at all and no need to be too arrogant...

I wasn't aware that was arrogant. :err:

but the only time is was mentioned was at Dumbledore's death and it was stated that the spell ended at the caster's death. That is what was said. Anything else is just conjecture and trying to read into the story a logic that is lacking.

Rowlings simply messed up on this point. It can't be both ways.

The only thing we know from that occasion is that Petrificus Totalus ends with the caster's death. We also know from canon that other spells (such as the spell on the Sorting Hat, and Permanent Sticking Charms as mentioned above) do last after death. Therefore it can be both ways, and Jo did not mess up the point.

but the only time is was mentioned was at Dumbledore's death and it was stated that the spell ended at the caster's death. That is what was said. Anything else is just conjecture and trying to read into the story a logic that is lacking.

Rowlings simply messed up on this point. It can't be both ways.

That is the only time that it is mentioned that the full Body Bind Curse is ended by the caster's death. To apply that further to all spells is misleading. At no point does the book say that ALL spells end with the caster's death. There is so much canon that says the opposite and has already been posted in this thread, this can hardly be seen as a mistake.

It was never prooved that Moody was dead. It was probable, but all we have is an eye... The fact that Umbridge had his eye doesn't mean anything, he could have been imprisoned and or tortured all the way through the book... Moody was one of the few people I would back to survive an attack of that proportion. I can't see a reason in the story for this to be the case without another book further down the line being written, but it may be the case nevertheless.

I seriously doubt that... why would Jo leave a character alive who everyone thinks is dead without mentioning it?

I seriously doubt that... why would Jo leave a character alive who everyone thinks is dead without mentioning it?

That's why I said it's unlikely... It could very easily be the case but I doubt there would be a reason for it without another book (which I doubt will happen).

It could be the case if the universe were real. But it's not - it's Jo's universe and she would have no reason for Mad-Eye to be alive.

Also - just reread the section where Bill tells everyone that Mad-Eye's dead.
Voldemort's curse hit Mad-Eye full in the face, he fell backwards off his broom
How would he have survived that?

It could be the case if the universe were real. But it's not - it's Jo's universe and she would have no reason for Mad-Eye to be alive.

Yeah but that's talking about her reasons for that to happen again, i'm saying that nowhere in the book was he said to be dead. She could have another book sneakily lined up for all I know... but at the moment there is no reason for him to be alive, that doesn't stop it being a possibility in the book - even without another book she may have originally planned to have him in later in the book but cut it out.

Fair enough - she never presented us with incontrovertible evidence that he's dead so he could be alive. But I think that if you're going to go down that road everything gets ludicrous.

I wasn't aware that was arrogant. :err:

i didn't mean you, sorry...

We never even heard of spells ending when the caster died until the end of HBP, and the Bodybind Dumbledore put on Harry was a simple spell, never intended to be permanent. Moody's were different.

He may even have intended it to end with his death which he knew would occur on that tower as Harry would have little chance against Voldemort stuck invisible and unable to move.

The book wasn't sloppily written at all! Simple spells obviously can't last if the one who casts the spell dies. But some spells were made to last, like the permentant sticking charm on Sirius's mother's picture. If all spells died when the caster was dead, the picture would not have stuck on the wall past Sirius's mother's death.

Some charms are meant to be permanent: Think of Hogwarts, for instance. the school is heavily protected by magic - if I'm not mistaken, didn't Rowling say somewhere that she kind of pictured that Hogwarts was even held together by magic? Anyway, the point is, the charms and spells placed on and around Hogwarts didn't just end when the four founders (and any of their contributing predecessors) died. Plus, the protective charm that kept Harry safe at the Dursleys' until he came of age or no longer called the place home didn't end when Dumbledore died.
I'm reminded of how Bella told Harry that you have "to really mean it" when you cast an Unforgivable, and I think it might have something to do with the castor's intention when they cast a spell. For example, Dumbledore certainly didn't intend for Harry to always remain frozen on the spot on the night that he died, and that may have had something to do with the reason that the spell lifted after his death. However, Moody would have intended -and perhaps specified - that 12 Grimmauld Place should be protected even after he died, and so those charms and spells wouldn't have been broken.

I sometimes think that we try way to hard to find flaws. It's a make-believe world, lets not get so serius about it that it loses its charm. I think it was a very good question, however, Ms. Rowling can do whatever she likes with her characters and her story line. I am a little taken aback by DH being called sloppy.

The only thing we know from that occasion is that Petrificus Totalus ends with the caster's death. We also know from canon that other spells (such as the spell on the Sorting Hat, and Permanent Sticking Charms as mentioned above) do last after death. Therefore it can be both ways, and Jo did not mess up the point.

Hi,

What is meant by "canon." (I know the word, of course but I don't understand the usage here)

Do you mean that jkr stated something to be so or that the consensus here is that something is true.

I just see it as an oversight. Harry needed to be freed of the spell to get on with the storyline so she had the spell end with dd's death without thinking that this wouls have affected his other spells.

Yes, some remain, like the sorting hat and whoever casted them!!

Hi,

What is meant by "canon." (I know the word, of course but I don't understand the usage here)

Do you mean that jkr stated something to be so or that the consensus here is that something is true.

I just see it as an oversight. Harry needed to be freed of the spell to get on with the storyline so she had the spell end with dd's death without thinking that this wouls have affected his other spells.

Canon being anything actually written in the text of the 7 books.

We have examples all through the books (canon) of spells which lasted after the spell's caster perished... The protections around Hogwarts.. the enchantments on Sirius's motorcycle.. The permanant sticking charms used by both Sirius and his mother on their possessions in the Black household... and the list goes on...

The only thing we know - from canon - which ends with the spells caster is the particular body bind spell which Dumbledore cast on Harry on top of the tower.

Any other speculation is just that - speculation and conjecture... What we KNOW, from canon, is that some spells die with the caster and some spells live on... we don't know the rules but we know that, in fact, both scenarios are possible.

I've noticed that the spells that lift when the caster dies tend to be those placed on a person rather than on objects or places. Those cast on objects/places seem to be the more permanent ones.
That actually makes wonderful sense. The spells we have seen performed on people that have lifted after the caster's demise (Dumbledore's Body-Bind, Voldemort's curse over the DADA job) affected people and stopped working when the caster died. The other ones on the buildings/objects seem to hold for long afterwards.
Some charms are meant to be permanent: Think of Hogwarts, for instance. the school is heavily protected by magic - if I'm not mistaken, didn't Rowling say somewhere that she kind of pictured that Hogwarts was even held together by magic?
That was the Burrow actually, not Hogwarts. :)

i reckon i will have to concede on this point though harry, who should know a bit about spells, knew automatically the DD was dead when the spell lifted. it would seem at least that harry thought that spells broke with death.

wikipedia has a nice definition of canon in fictional universes. i was unaware of the usage.

Is this explained anywhere or is it just more evidence that Hallows is sloppily written and just thrown together?

that's a rather low blow, isn't it?

I believe some spells are made to last after the death of the wizard that casted it. Take Hermione case, for instance, she made a spell on her parents with the intention that the spell could last after her death, because she wanted to protect them. She mentioned that if she died they would keep living happy without knowing that one day they had a daughter. So why don't think that Moody would do the same with important spells that were used to protect others, knowing that in war times he could die any time? For me is very clear that he put a spell on the house that would last after his death.Good point, I guess you can cast spells that last for years after your death.

There's ample evidence throughout the books that some spells are permanent and some temporary. Almost certainly the curse on the necklace that Draco used was one of the permanent ones - the original necklace owner is long dead, in all likelihood.
Mrs Black's permanent sticking charm's another. I believe that the type of curses / spells that cease when the caster ceases require the caster to be "willing" the spell to continue. Dumbledore's full body bind was one of these.
Therefore, I think that Moody's curses can live on without this being a plot hole or without DH being the worst-written book of the series or other critiques. Moody wanted the curses to live on, so they did.
Other spells that live on: the Hogwarts defensive spells.

That was the Burrow actually, not Hogwarts. :)

Sorry, I might be wrong, but I thought somewhere that she compared the two as being similar in that way. :)

Anyway, as I was thinking about it, I really think that whoever it was (although several people said it) that said that spells placed on people and spells placed on places or on things are different might be on to something. What made me come to this conclusion was when someone (who was it? I don't have my books with me right now) was telling Harry about "reformed" DE (after Voldy's first fall), they mentioned that some people seemed to come out of a "trance" when he was gone, while others said (truthfully or not) that they had been under the Imperius until Voldemort disappeared. That would seem to back up the claim that spells on people spells on objects and places are somehow different in their make.

Anyway, as I was thinking about it, I really think that whoever it was (although several people said it) that said that spells placed on people and spells placed on places or on things are different might be on to something. What made me come to this conclusion was when someone (who was it? I don't have my books with me right now) was telling Harry about "reformed" DE (after Voldy's first fall), they mentioned that some people seemed to come out of a "trance" when he was gone, while others said (truthfully or not) that they had been under the Imperius until Voldemort disappeared. That would seem to back up the claim that spells on people spells on objects and places are somehow different in their make.

On the other hand the curse Voldemort put on the DADA job lifted when he died.

And the Fidelius Charm on Grimmauld Place also survived after DD's death.

i was actually very shocked... when harry first shows up and theyre first, ur sure that someone (perhaps a whole group or 2) has died, and ur sittin there, reading, waiting for JK to reveal who died, the WHOLE time i thought that no way it was Moody because he was the BEST Auror there.... he was the toughest, could see out the back of his head, and was ALWAYS the one emphasizing precaution, etc.... so although i didnt feel especially sad about his death, i think it was the only death that would show to the readers that ANYONE could die, and it was no longer safe at all... he might not have been one of the really warmhearted loveable characters but he was def. one of the strongest and the biggest surprise logically speaking....

I was rereading this bit last night and it struck me anew how disturbing it was, upon first reading, that his body was not recovered and that his eye is later discovered, by Harry, to be embedded in Umbridge's office door.

It reminded, just a little, me of the stories on the news that showed Iraqi villagers dragging the bodies of contractors and soldiers alike through the streets and hanging them from bridges or otherwise displaying them.

Truly awful :(

Reading through the last two books the first time, I've just read through really quickly waiting for people to die, so Moody dying was sad but the creepiness didn't sink in with me either until I re-read it. It wasn't enough to kill and hide the body to cover up, Umbridge took his eye and all. It just takes it that one step further to where it isn't even necessary for their purposes. It's just too much.

Reading through the last two books the first time, I've just read through really quickly waiting for people to die, so Moody dying was sad but the creepiness didn't sink in with me either until I re-read it. It wasn't enough to kill and hide the body to cover up, Umbridge took his eye and all. It just takes it that one step further to where it isn't even necessary for their purposes. It's just too much.

Agreed - they didn't need to swipe the magical eye like that to rub it in that they killed the powerful auror. The order already knew; and the use to which the eye was put was creepy, to say the least.

We didn't get to see a lot of Moody though, but his skills were great nonetheless. Probably the same (if not more powerful) than Snape or Belletrix. It was a shame for the OoTP to lose such a great wizard in that way.

I actually found Mad Eye's death to be one of the most upsetting deaths in the entire series. Maybe it was because it was completly unexpected on my end, or maybe it was because it was one of the only deaths in DH that got a mourning scene. Other than that I don't really know why it hit me much harder than the rest of the deaths. We were also constantly reminded of his death throughout the book. Not being able to find the body, Umbridge having the eye on her office door. Things like that made this death particularly sad to me.

Indeedy, it is magic. We do not know the exact rules of magic. After all, this requires about 7 years of study, so it seems kinda silly to assume that we know all about it.

Take Gamps law of universal transfiguration. Food is one of five exceptions. What are the other four? Do we know? Nope. Because we know next to nothing about how magic works, which limits it has, or how spells interact.

Apparently, the books have shown that some spells die with the caster (Full Body Bind, Imperius, the jinx on the DADA job), while others outlive the caster (permanent sticking charms, moody's curses on GP, protective spells on hogwarts).

Both can be true. Some spells may last, some may die. The exact rules of magic are supposed to be complex, full of exceptions and rules which we as readers do not know to their full extent, since we have not attended 7 years of magical education.

Claiming that the book must be wrong because every single spell doesn't work the same way seems very strange indeed.



As for moody being dead or not: Bill saw him getting hit in the face with an Avada Kedavra, upon which he fell from his broom and plummeted hundres of feet to the ground. It seems exceedingly unlikely that he could have survived the killing curse, and even if he did (how?), a fall like that kills more or less everyone.

I wasn't that suprised. I figured that he would die somewhere in the book, maybe more toward the end.

1. well by the title of the chapter in which it was revealed that he was dead, it was either him or hagrid. i can't say i was surprised or all that upset about his death, he was marked and it was only a matter of time.

3. his death had a significant effect because i think he was the link to DD for harry. while everyone was joking or worried about how harry would react to the pal, moody just yelled hairs now, and harry obliged him. i imagine just about anyone else would have gotten a real fight.harry needed to be the leader in theis book. i don't think moody would have accepted harry going off on his own without knowing what was going on, and being that harry couldn't tell him that would have led top a sticky situation.

i was shocked when bill told the order about mad-eye's death. it didn't really hit me until i saw the reaction of the others...tonks crying into her handkerchief. it made sense though as he was one of the toughest aurors that lv would dispatch him personally (and dung, well, dung stinks - literally).

it was worse when they had his eye up on umbridge's door. kind of ironic since in the fifth book mad eye was complaining that his eye "kept getting stuck" after that death eater "scum" wore it in GOF...he never thought a year later it would literally stuck on that death eater-friendly scum umbridge's door! i'm glad harry was able to bury the eye.

Something I noticed reading the DH (for the fifth or sixth time) was that moody, even though they have a huge section talking about him dying, didn't really die. When you look through the stuff that goes on, while HP was going through Grinngotts trying to steal the Horcrux, on the way they saw a man with a mishapen face and a bandage over one eye. Now if they were to take moody and put a charm on him trying to erase his memory, wouldn't that end up making him alive? And he didn't show up when harry used the death stone to talk to all the dead people, so I belive he did not die. Makes sense..somewhat.

Many people didn't show when harry took the resurrection stone,i.e Dumbledore. Harry wanted his parents, sirius and lupin to be there, not mad-eye. And i think Moody did die. Why would the DE (MoM) wanted Moody for? And so, if he wasn't dead why have it in Gringotts?

Something I noticed reading the DH (for the fifth or sixth time) was that moody, even though they have a huge section talking about him dying, didn't really die. When you look through the stuff that goes on, while HP was going through Grinngotts trying to steal the Horcrux, on the way they saw a man with a mishapen face and a bandage over one eye. Now if they were to take moody and put a charm on him trying to erase his memory, wouldn't that end up making him alive? And he didn't show up when harry used the death stone to talk to all the dead people, so I belive he did not die. Makes sense..somewhat.
You do have a point, but you can't be too sure. A man with a mishapen face and a bandage covering one eye doesn't necessarily have to be Mad-Eye. I personally think he did die. Harry didn't resurrect everbody who had died from the stone, but just a fair few. He didn't even raise Dumbledore, let alone Moody!

I wonder why Jo put the man into the book then? She could have put anyone.... a man with an arm missing; a man with a hunchback; why a man with a distorted face and a bandage over one eye? She must have reasised that this fit Mad-Eyes description.

I wonder why Jo put the man into the book then? She could have put anyone.... a man with an arm missing; a man with a hunchback; why a man with a distorted face and a bandage over one eye? She must have reasised that this fit Mad-Eyes description.

Probably so that we could have this argument long after the series has ended. :)
Since we can't argue about what's going to happen in the next book, we need something to occupy us for the rest of our lives, eh?

:) I like it, it did cross my mind but I thought it would be callous (wrong word?) to mention it!

Something I noticed reading the DH (for the fifth or sixth time) was that moody, even though they have a huge section talking about him dying, didn't really die. When you look through the stuff that goes on, while HP was going through Grinngotts trying to steal the Horcrux, on the way they saw a man with a mishapen face and a bandage over one eye. Now if they were to take moody and put a charm on him trying to erase his memory, wouldn't that end up making him alive? And he didn't show up when harry used the death stone to talk to all the dead people, so I belive he did not die. Makes sense..somewhat.

Interesting thought. JKR could have mentioned said lumpen-faced one-eyed man just to show that there were many and varied folks wandering around the Minstry- or it very well could have been Moody. I'm going to guess the further rather than the latter, since it seems unlikely to me that he'd be left in that state of limbo.

And I'd guess he didn't appear when Harry handled the Resurrection Stone because he wasn't part of Harry's family or someone he particularly needed for comfort.

Moody's death was a sore point for me as well, but I think, in the end, he really is gone.

Well, If it was Moody, they would have recognised him, because of his leg and clothes.And Moody didn't come out of the resurection stone, because only those people came out, like Dumbledore, Tonks, Colin, they didn't come out, nor did Fred, Ted Tonks, Or snape.

Huh, I didn't even notice the description, let alone associate it with Mad-Eye. I'll have to go back and read that over. But then again, I was flying through that book. :lol:

Poor Mad-Eye. His death was one of the few that really surprised me. I thought someone younger and less experienced would go before he did. :(

Yeah I wondered about this myself when I read the book. The fact that they never found Mad-Eye's body after he fell made me highly suspicious. Even when Harry found his eye in the MoM, I still had my doubts. Moody could easily be somewhere else, captured and eyeless.

I didn't even notice the guy in Gringotts who had a mishapen face and a bandage over his eye, but if thats true it really seems that Jo was trying to hint that he was still alive. Obviously the guy may not have been Moody, but it's odd that Jo wuld give him that description unless she was trying to suggest that it was.

It's most unusual for Jo to leave us hanging like this, not knowing if a character is dead or not. Personally I think he is dead, but not knowing is going to drive me crazy. I think I know what I'm going to ask her in the next online chat.:)

As to why Moody didn't appear along side James, Lily, Sirius, and Lupin when Harry used the Resurrection Stone, the answer is quite simple. Harry clearly only wanted his immediate family and their friends by his side as he walked to his death.

I believe that Mad Eye lived and suffered from an extreme case of amnesia when he hit the ground. He later regained his memory and helped hunt down the remaining DE's :D

Just something Jo left for us to wonder about.

He definitely died. He was hit by a killing curse, lost his eye, etc., etc.
He didn't appear with the resurrection stone because Harry only resurrected those he was very close with. Truth be told, Harry was actually closer with Barty Crouch jr than Mad Eye.

Yes he really died. It is just like Dumbledore and Sirius; he is dead. Deal with it.

I didn't notice the description of that man till you pointed out, but I really don't believe that he was Moody, there's no reason to be and if that man had any similarity with Moody, Harry would try to find out. Regarding his appearence with the use of the stone, like many others stated above, many others even more close to Harry than Moddy didn't show up. He is really dead.

Interesting theory, but I believe MEM did die.

The person before Gringotts is suspicious.

However, do you really think LV, would have done any curse other than a killing curse? Especially on a powerful member of the order? While, LV was prioritizing killing Harry, I don't believe that he would have made a mistake and not completely have finished Mad-eye.

His curse did hit him full in the head, and I doubt that Mad-eye, is the 2nd person to survive AK.

His curse did hit him full in the head, and I doubt that Mad-eye, is the 2nd person to survive AK.

Hahaha. Deffinately not. I think the suspicious man at Gringotts was not intentional. If he WAS, then JKR is certainly having a chuckle about the "Moody LIVES" theories that are bound to pop up. I think JKR took care of the uncertainty of Moody's death with the conversation between the trio, where Ron tries and fails to prove Moody is alive.

If the bandaged man were him, that would be awful wouldn't it? Moody's already suffered so much in the ways of being controlled and not allowed to live his life- at least in death he is at peace.

Maybe there is a secret to the eye that only Moody knows. Voldemort could have kept him alive like Ollivander. Possibly that it records images and Voldemort could use it to his advantage. There are many reasons why Voldemort would want Moody alive because he knows so much.

He definitely died. He was hit by a killing curse, lost his eye, etc., etc.
He didn't appear with the resurrection stone because Harry only resurrected those he was very close with. Truth be told, Harry was actually closer with Barty Crouch jr than Mad Eye.

That's probably true. He did spend more time with Crouch Jr than Mad Eye.

Anyway, I think he's dead. Unfortunately!

The person before Gringotts is suspicious.

However, do you really think LV, would have done any curse other than a killing curse? Especially on a powerful member of the order? While, LV was prioritizing killing Harry, I don't believe that he would have made a mistake and not completely have finished Mad-eye.

His curse did hit him full in the head, and I doubt that Mad-eye, is the 2nd person to survive AK.

He would be third, as Voldemort survived (technically) only seconds after Harry did the first time.

but yeah. killing curse. dead.

I really do think that if Moody hadn't died, we would have been told. It's the last book -- there won't be an 8th one in which Moody turns out to be alive. There shouldn't be any mystery in the 7th book; if Moody was alive, we would have been told indefinitely.

Well, if he didn’t die, poor guy’s probably having some sight issues.

I really do think that if Moody hadn't died, we would have been told. It's the last book -- there won't be an 8th one in which Moody turns out to be alive. There shouldn't be any mystery in the 7th book; if Moody was alive, we would have been told indefinitely.


A lot of things were left unresolved.

Okay if JK Rowling decided to not really kill him off, wouldn't she have given some sort of inclination in the book that he was still alive considering how the series is kinda finished?

yes, or else we would definitly have heard. i think it was just wishful thinking on ron's part, but harry and hermione were right in being realistic. if moody was pretending to be dead, he would have dropped all pretense in the battle of hogwarts.
oh well, he lived a very great and interesting life.

If he isn't dead I'd like to know where he was being kept/hiding out. And I would doubt that he was hiding somewhere of his own free will, you'd think that he'd return to the Order as soon as he possibly could. If he were being kept somewhere, I can't think of where, as the Death Eaters were hiding their prisoners in Malfoy's basement and Moody was certainly not there. They were even hiding Ollivander there, who seems like pretty precious cargo, you know?

So I don't see how he could be alive. Unless he ended up in St. Mungo's and no one found out about it, but I think that's even less likely than him just being dead. I think that the exchange between the trio about whether or not Moody was dead was kind of JKR poking at the readers that he was dead, but that there would be some doubters out there. :) It certainly seems a fitting parallel even if it wasn't intended.

"We were just talking about Mad-Eye," Ron told Harry. "I reckon he might've survived."
"But Bill saw him hit by the Killing Curse," said Harry.
"Yeah, but Bill was under attack too," said Ron. "How can he be sure what he saw?"
"Even if the Killing Curse missed, Mad-Eye still fell about a thousand feet," said Hermione, now weighing Quidditch Teams of Britain and Ireland in her hand.
"He could have used a Shield Charm --"
"Fleur said his wand was blasted out of his hand," said Harry.
"Well, all right, if you want him to be dead," said Ron grumpily, punching his pillow into a more comfortable shape.

Now, I feel that she didn't put that in there just to trip us up. I think it was put into the book to let us know that Mad-Eye Moody did, in fact, die and that no amount of trying to wiggle through holes will bring him back.

I really doubt he will be alive. I mean, it's Voldy we're talking about here. Moody was good, in the leagues of Snape, but not that good

No, he is one of the victims in the war. Voldemort is not kidding and Moody was an Aurror so..We did the same thing with DD but he was really die and I can see Moody's too.

Harry Potter is the only one who comes back from death in The HP series....everyone else dead when the book says they die. At least that is the way I have seen the books play out.

Peter Pettigrew??

Hi. I think he is really dead, because his eye was in Umbrigde's office. And they would have heard that he is still alive, if he would have been alive.

Peter Pettigrew??

Him and Lord Voldemort (we were lead to believe that he was gone at the beginning of the first book). So there have been a few who "died" and "came back to life", but I still highly doubt that Mad-Eye would be among them, or else, like the other three characters, JKR would've made sure the reader knew that he was still alive.

I really kept expecting him to appear at some critical moment. But even as I was reading I knew in my heart of hearts that he was dead.

War is cruel and there was always going to be deaths likes Moody's.

To be honest, I didn't feel a thing when he died. It was like, all of a sudden, "Mad-Eye's dead." I was just like, "Oh, okay then." Maybe if we'd seen it it would have been sadder, but it didn't upset me all that much. That's a consequence of war and Moody was always prepared to accept that. What with his age and high status as an accomplished Auror, I kind of expected it sooner or later.

1. How did you react when Mad Eye died?

jaw dropped once again.

2. What foreshadowing is there in the series for his death?

he's an auror...it comes with the job. haha

3. How did his death impact the story?

it was such a quick character loss it really showed that this book was not playing games...if you kno what i mean

What are you talking about? moody's not dead. Nope he's that begger near Gringotts, you see the avada kedavra hit him in the face, it hit him in his magical eye see, the force of which knocked him off his broom, the magical eye protected him but the power of the spell dislodged it, the deatheaters later went to pick it up, they figured the order had already retrieved his body but in truth moody hit his head when he fell to the ground and so lost his memory and has been living on the streets ever since.

Ah sweet denial.

Something I noticed reading the DH (for the fifth or sixth time) was that moody, even though they have a huge section talking about him dying, didn't really die. When you look through the stuff that goes on, while HP was going through Grinngotts trying to steal the Horcrux, on the way they saw a man with a mishapen face and a bandage over one eye. Now if they were to take moody and put a charm on him trying to erase his memory, wouldn't that end up making him alive? And he didn't show up when harry used the death stone to talk to all the dead people, so I belive he did not die. Makes sense..somewhat.

I thought the exact same thing when reading the description of that man, i thought yes! moodys alive, but then nothing came of it. J.K might have put it there as a red herring, becuse she knows people would think of moody when reading that description.

Something I noticed reading the DH (for the fifth or sixth time) was that moody, even though they have a huge section talking about him dying, didn't really die. When you look through the stuff that goes on, while HP was going through Grinngotts trying to steal the Horcrux, on the way they saw a man with a mishapen face and a bandage over one eye. Now if they were to take moody and put a charm on him trying to erase his memory, wouldn't that end up making him alive? And he didn't show up when harry used the death stone to talk to all the dead people, so I belive he did not die. Makes sense..somewhat.

As HP is not going any further, as we are told for now, this can leave open a hope. I don't think he is still alive but only time will tell.

I really think he did really died. First off, he had no change facing Vold as Dumbledore would have. And his mad eye on Umbridges office door only demonstrates that his death was real and Umbridge is glad for that.

I like to think Moody is still alive.
As mentioned, when Harry and co. are going to Gringott's, there's a man with a bandage over an eye. To me, why would J.K mention that little bit and not just have "there were a few beggars about" unless it meant something?
The beggar mentions "his children" so the first kind of thought I had was along the lines of, Moody's memory was erased to a certain point in his life or it was altered altogether.

Also, I always thought - the battle Moody "died" in was so sudden and chaotic, who can be 100% sure whose curse was aimed at/hit who?
I know it says a green light hit Moody in the face but (to grasp at straws! *lol*) could it be possible another curse or whatever is green? Doesn't it usually say, when someone dies, they're hit square in the chest? (I know, I'm nitpicking, sorry!).

My final points :)
Moody was hit in the face so it could explain why Harry and co. didn't recognise him (assuming Moody was the beggar).
Moody could have apparated in mid-air which would explain why his body wasn't found.
His magical eye could've been taken off by Moody himself as "proof" of his death, or it could've been blasted off by whatever hit him in the face.

He'll always be alive in my head anyway! *lol*

I think Moody did really die. Because if he didn't, he'd want to help Harry bring down Voldemort.

What are you talking about? moody's not dead. Nope he's that begger near Gringotts, you see the avada kedavra hit him in the face, it hit him in his magical eye see, the force of which knocked him off his broom, the magical eye protected him but the power of the spell dislodged it, the deatheaters later went to pick it up, they figured the order had already retrieved his body but in truth moody hit his head when he fell to the ground and so lost his memory and has been living on the streets ever since.

Ah sweet denial.

You had me going right up until the end :lol:

I was startled, because we barely saw him and everything was moving so fast. I was a bit sickened by Umbridge taking his eye for a kind of trophy/security system and glad Harry rescued it.

Having never found the body disturbed me a little also. I kept expecting him to reappear before the end. I didn't notice the man in Gringotts either. Good job catching details!!! I didn't want MEM to die, but alas, I think he is gone!

Hmm. If he didn't die, then he is missing an eye, because harry buried it. That's pretty gross. yup, i'm pretty sure he's dead.

Ha ha, I love us refusing to let go of speculation!

Hi. I think he is really dead, because his eye was in Umbrigde's office.

Very clever everybody, spotting the eyeless walk-on character!

And...there is another loophole here. Remember when Harry first visited Daigon Alley by mistake? Among the items he noticed in Borgin and Burkes was...a glass eye! So possibly, there was at least one other magical eye out there.

Ha ha, I love us refusing to let go of speculation!

Hehe *Points to a barn full of straws* I've got plenty of straws to grasp at! *Dives in*

And...there is another loophole here. Remember when Harry first visited Daigon Alley by mistake? Among the items he noticed in Borgin and Burkes was...a glass eye! So possibly, there was at least one other magical eye out there.

Very true. Even if Moody was the only person to have the magical eye, well there's already one made so someone, somewhere could make another - it's possible.
But it's possible Moody could've left his eye at the battle scene as 'proof', though personally I think it was blasted off when he was hit.

I also just thought - if it was really the Avada Kedava curse - no-one can say for sure who said it, so it's possible it was done by someone who wasn't strong enough with it.
(Remember in G.O.F Moody says that the class could get out their wands and try the curse on him and he'd doubt if he got so much as a nosebleed).
So it is possible that even if the curse was the killing curse, Moody could've survived it.

His memory has been altered or erased to a certain point (- that's what I think) so that explains why he didn't come and help Harry etc anytime later in the book.

i think, since there are no more official books, we must assume he did.
but i don't understand why she made ron think he didn't unless she wanted to cause speculation

I'm going to go with a yes. I'd like to know how anybody could have gotten his magical eye while he was still alive.

What would be the point of him not really being dead? The series has ended and since he didn't pop up at another point in the book to show us he was alive it doesn't make sense.

was the miss shaped faced man only mentioned in the us version? because i cant remember it... (sorry, dont have book to hand) if it was only in us version then it couldnt have been him because she cant have ment for him to be alive for american reader and not bother for uk readers... im confused...

If there was another book coming, I might believe that we will found out he is alive... but since this was the final book, all the discoveries are to be made on that book, and since we never discovered he's alive, then I accept the fact he's dead...

was the miss shaped faced man only mentioned in the us version? because i cant remember it... (sorry, dont have book to hand) if it was only in us version then it couldnt have been him because she cant have ment for him to be alive for american reader and not bother for uk readers... im confused...

You mean the beggar with the bloody bandage over his eye?
No, I'm from UK and it's in my book.
It's when Hermione took Polyjuice potion to be Bellatrix and they are going to break into a Gringotts vault.
I don't know the page number because I don't have the book on hand either, but it's like, just outside Gringotts.

I think he did die, if he didn't the DE would finish him off anyways.

Yes, I think he's really dead. If he somehow managed to survive the attack he would have come back to help everyone else and let them know that he was alive.

Yes he is dead....everyone that was said to be dead was dead...she isnt making any more books so whatever happened is final

Moody also resembles the brutle faced Death Eater that was present at Dumbledore's Death.Coincidence?

If he wasn't dead she would have made more of an effort to show that he really was alive; he was such an important character that if he were to still be alive, she would have wanted people to know.

Mad-Eye is really dead. The Death Eaters had his eye, so they found his body. Even if he survived being hit by Avada Kadavra and survived the fall from thousands of feet up without a wand, the Death Eaters would not just take his eye and dump him in Diagon Alley. Also, remember that the guy with the bandaged eye was asking after his children, and I don't think Mad-Eye ever even married, let alone children. Lastly, wouldn't the Trio recognize him? I know that when one doesn't expect to see someone, one doesn't even recognize them, but still...

If he wasn't dead she would have made more of an effort to show that he really was alive; he was such an important character that if he were to still be alive, she would have wanted people to know.

I agree. The fact that the possibility didn't really come up in Deathly Hallows kind of reinforces it for me.

I believe the clue we have to let us know he is really dead is the fact that Dolores Umbridge had his magical eye

Very clever everybody, spotting the eyeless walk-on character!

And...there is another loophole here. Remember when Harry first visited Daigon Alley by mistake? Among the items he noticed in Borgin and Burkes was...a glass eye! So possibly, there was at least one other magical eye out there.

Surely we can't believe that Moody was the only magical person with only one eye? :) There are plenty of people with only one eye in the Muggle world, and I can only imagine that the magical world would reflect that. I need to check, but was the glass eye in Borgin and Burkes a magical one with properties comparable to Moody's? It could be sort of like Harry's Invisibility Cloak, where there are others out there, but that they simply are not as good as the original/most powerful.

I just think that maybe the man with the patch over one eye in Diagon Alley is a lot like the whole Mark Evans incident, where great parallels could be drawn, but I really just have a gut feeling that JKR wouldn't have killed him off just to tell us that he is alive, after playing no part in the rest of the final book of the series. :)

I think his death was a little unneccessary, because the trio were on their own for most of the story having mad Eye alive somewhere else wouldn't have made much difference. I felt that Moody's death, as with many others, were done just for the sake of the death, and that death didn't contribute anything to the story.

However, I think Moody would have wanted to go like that.

That's interesting. Yeah, he wouldn't want to die quietly. I didn't cry when he died, because he wouldn't have had it any other way.

I dont know why, but i
was in denial. i was sure that he would reappear later.

I felt the same way. Maybe because he was so tough. Maybe because it would have seemed forced or hokey for someone like Dumbledore to return, but MM not being such a major character, and having just disappeared, I was hoping there would be a moment where a one-eyed tough guy popped out of nowhere just when he was needed.

I think that was the only way Moody could have died for me, fighting until the very end, for me was a very moodyish death.

If anything Moody would have wanted to die in battle so it was a good way for him to go if a little prematurely. I wish hed had chance to do some more fighting and it would have been ace to see his impact on the Battle of Hogwarts and kick some Death Eater butt!!
Its JKR setting the scene for the entire book, just like with Hedwigs death, when these two pretty major characters die so early on(I know Hedwigs an owl but she still plays quite an important role in my opinion) you just know that the rest of the book is going to be dark scary and just as grizzly, it prepares the audience for the 'dark and difficult' times that lie ahead.

What are you talking about? moody's not dead. Nope he's that begger near Gringotts, you see the avada kedavra hit him in the face, it hit him in his magical eye see, the force of which knocked him off his broom, the magical eye protected him but the power of the spell dislodged it, the deatheaters later went to pick it up, they figured the order had already retrieved his body but in truth moody hit his head when he fell to the ground and so lost his memory and has been living on the streets ever since.

Ah sweet denial.

Hear hear! :tu: :D
I choose to believe his eye was blasted off in the battle - hence finding his eye lying there, and the beggar with the bloody bandage :)


I kept expecting him to appear throughout the book again anyway - especially when the trio went back to Grimmauld place. I couldn't understand why they didn't start looking for him in the house - it took quite a few pages before it sunk in to me it was only his voice, nothing more! :upset:

I didn't really think he was alive, but I thought Bill and Lupin would find his body...pretty sad they hadn't. I agree the DE's probably got it - I thought Harry's little joke about stuffing him was rather crass and in bad taste, but at least he gave the eye a fine burial in the end...

This thread is to discuss the death of Mad Eye Moody.

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Questions:

1. How did you react when Mad Eye died?

2. What foreshadowing is there in the series for his death?

3. How did his death impact the story?



1) Shock, never even considered him dying but in retrospect it was pretty likely.He was a very likeable character. In fact, I still actually doubt he died.

2) No idea

3) Hugely I think. He probably knew things that would have definitely helped the trio out a lot. The battle of Hogwarts might not have been as bad if Moody had been fighting.

I agree it was probably necessary for the storyline that he wasn't around - he could have probably caused some real damage at the Ministry. That is why his eye being there was so horrible. Really every death in the book was really gruesome except colin, tonks and remus - if you were fans of those three you got off easy.

Moody got killed. According to book six, his spells should have been broken when he died yet his protective spells at Grimauld Place continued to work.

I think this is a plot hole, for once he died, that curse should have been broken IMO. When Dumbledore died, everyone became the SK; the spell broke in the sense that there were many people who could reveal the secret, when before Dumbeldore was the only one who could.

This curse too, should have been broken; great point.

On the other hand the curse Voldemort put on the DADA job lifted when he died.

Voldemort thought he was going to achieve immortality however. I don't think he envisioned being defeated by Harry so he would not have ensured that the curse would last after his death.

I agree with what a few others have touched on -- that Moody intended them to last if he perished -- honestly IMO I think he knew his days were numbered. Constant Vigilience remember? He thought they might be attacked when taking Harry to Grimmauld Place originally:
"We don't break ranks for anything, got me? If one of us is killed --"

So by what we know about his mentality, I would imagine that most protective/anti DE charms he cast throughout his tenure with the Order would be everlasting charms. I cannot possibly think that he could have cast charms that would not outlast his death, it would be out of character IMO.

He knew his life was at risk, so he would have taken every precaution to prevent something like that.

I pretty sure that DD made sure that just in case that someone did get killed that there would be more the one spell made by more then just one person.

Is this explained anywhere or is it just more evidence that Hallows is sloppily written and just thrown together?

What else in the book do you think was sloppily written and just thrown together? It did not appear that way to me at all.

Is this explained anywhere or is it just more evidence that Hallows is sloppily written and just thrown together?

Thats pretty harsh!

Well, I absolutely don't think that DH was sloppily written. If it was, then we would be able to pick out a mistake on every page without having to search for it. So, no, I don't think it was a flaw in the book. Also, this sort of stuff was explained. I believe there are some spells that don't wear off. Like Mrs. Black's portrait in Grimmauld place, it can't be taken down because Mrs. Black or one of the blacks that lived there put a spell on it so it couldn't be removed, but every black that lived there that could have done that is dead by the time the Order gets there and the spell hasn't worn off. Also, I think if every spell wore off when the caster died, the Avada Kedavra curse would stop working and the dead would come back to life.

I've noticed that the spells that lift when the caster dies tend to be those placed on a person rather than on objects or places. Those cast on objects/places seem to be the more permanent ones.
:tu::tu:

This makes perfect sense to me, and everything I can think of in canon seems to fit this rule fine.:)

The charm that Dumbledore used to ensure Harry's protection when he stayed at the Dursleys did not break with Dumbledore's death.