Remus Lupin's Death

I liked the point whoever made that Harry becoming Ted's godfather was foreshadowing Lupin's death. I never thought of it that way.

What puzzled me about both Lupin and Tonk's deaths was that Harry chewed out Lupin for volunteering to help him out on their quest to destroy Horcurxes, saying that children shouldn't be neglected. In the end, both of Ted's parents are dead so Ted is still neglected. I probably would have liked it better if Lupin sacrificed his life for Tonks so that Ted would still have a parent.

You know, days later and I'm still chocked up over Lupin. I'm definately biased because he was my favorite, but there was so much that he deserved and had to offer post-DH. He suffered for so long with the anti-werewolf sentiments and the loss of his friends. Sure, things would still be rough for werewolves afterwards, but things would have calmed down under Kinglesy. And I so wanted Lupin to be a father - he would be a great one. If he and Tonks could have held off through that one last battle, they could finally have had peace together. I can't be too angry at JKR - she clearly gave Lupin much of his due - but I guess I'm just plain sad. I'd hate for this to taint my memories of a character I love.

In a way I don't want to know how he and Tonks died, but I am curious. Maybe I'm just a bit bitter, but Lupin and Tonks were very capable Order members - and Lupin always struck me as a powerful wizard. Since Aberforth says he saw Lupin dueling Dolohov, and then later Dolohov was seen alive...does that mean Dolohov killed Lupin? Because that doesn't seem right to me. Lupin was skilled enough to take on a Death Eater.

Oh, and let's not forget that when Harry sees that he is dead, he is lieing next to Tonks, completely alone. All the others are just next to him mourning Fred and this is exactly where Hermione goes as well. There is no one paying attention to dead Remus.That struck me too. Tonks and Remus, lying all alone with no mourners.

Lupins death hit me quite hard, I didn't cry, just sort of went numb. I see a lot of myself in Lupins character. Or a lot of Lupin's character in myself. I have been told my best qualities are that I'm Kind and Empethatic but, like Lupin I struggle with self doubt and I tend to put my friends first over myself and seek their attention and friendship a shade too much (I'm even greying at 20) so seeing the character most like me dead. Especially in such an off hand way it bothered me. I'm sad that Tonk's died as well, but part of me thinks that at least her and Remus are together in "Heaven" rather than seperated. They had both been through too much to have "survivors guilt".

Just a quick edit in reply to owlpostgirl I also find it odd to think Dolohov would have killed Lupin. I initially thought it must have been him, but I'm swayed now to think it was someone more powerful (Bellatrix?) simply because of the Power that Lupin had. In the Battle at the Minisitry he is listed I believe as being the only Wizard aside from Dumbledore not to be knocked down or incapacitated. He is also shown to be strong and capable enough to perform wandless magic seen (i think) to summon fire without the use of his wand and hold it in the palm of his hand. Individually I think he could beat Dolohov, with Tonk's as well it would take a very powerful enemy I think to take both down, and Bellatrix would have had a grudge.

I couldn't decide what to think about Remus before the book came out. I figured that he would have to die, as the last Marauder and a mentor-figure to Harry, but then he was with Tonks, and I thought that he would stay alive for her and because he supposedly represented people with disabilities. I really wish that we could have seen more of him and Tonks together - once he had accepted her love of him - because they were one of my favorite pairings and definitely two of my favorite characters.

I loved the scene at Shell Cottage when Remus ran in and named Harry godfather, but it was also the scene that I really started thinking that he was going to die. In fact, the only comfort for me when he and Tonks died was that Harry (and Ginny :)) would be able to raise Teddy as Harry and Voldemort should have been raised - but weren't. I thought that that would be a wonderful Epilogue, but the Epilogue killed it for me; it seems that Teddy was raised by Andromeda. This, unfortunately, leaves me with a vat of despair at Remus's death, and he seems to be just another to add to the random deaths that come with war. Still, though - I'd've rather Arthur Weasley died, like he was supposed to, or Hagrid, whose death I was prepared for.

The only point to his death that I can see is so that he could accompany Harry into the forest, which is a pretty big plot point, I suppose. Still. He had Tonks and Teddy, and I think it was the first time he was happy since his school days...everything was going so welll, and that just makes it harder to mourn him.... :(:(:(

He wasn't boarding it, he was seeing off his girlfriend (who, coincidentally, also has a father who was attacked by Greyback). I doubt the son of Remus Lupin would be inclined towards failing school. Thats funny, I had figured the girl was Bill and Fluer's daughter but I didnt even think about the fact that they both have a bit of werewolf in them!

Just a quick edit in reply to owlpostgirl I also find it odd to think Dolohov would have killed Lupin. I initially thought it must have been him, but I'm swayed now to think it was someone more powerful (Bellatrix?) simply because of the Power that Lupin had. In the Battle at the Minisitry he is listed I believe as being the only Wizard aside from Dumbledore not to be knocked down or incapacitated. He is also shown to be strong and capable enough to perform wandless magic seen (i think) to summon fire without the use of his wand and hold it in the palm of his hand. Individually I think he could beat Dolohov, with Tonk's as well it would take a very powerful enemy I think to take both down, and Bellatrix would have had a grudge.I too wonder if they were targeted in the battle. Tonks earlier said that Bellatrix was gunning for her on her broom. It saddens me to think that that they were casualties of such hatred.

i knew that wormtail would die, so i thought it was likely Lupin would too, then all fo the Marauders were dead and together again. I was terrible upset, i really liked Lupin. *sniffs* But now i think of it, Remus asked Harry to be Teddy's godfather, was sorta foreshadowing his death a bit. I loved how Lupin asked Hary to be his godfather, eh truested hima nd forgave him for the argument they had had, aawww now i am all emotional again.

I also agree that when Harry was named Lupin's sons Godfather that it was foreshadowing his and Tonk's death. Harry even mentions how he can be just like Sirius to him. That for me kind of gave it away.

However i am slightly upset as to the fact that neither of their deaths are given detail. I feel like Lupins death deserved the same amount of detail that was given to DD and Siruis. Or at least a chance to know how, why, and by who, he was killed.

Hmmm, wouldn't it have been ironic if Fenrir Greyback was the one to kill Remus and Tonks? There's no proof - especially since they appeared unharmed besides the fact that they were dead, and Fenrir likes to rip his victims to shreads. But after all, he was the werewolf that bit Lupin.

In a way I don't want to know how he and Tonks died, but I am curious.
I'm with you on that one. Sometimes it's enough to just have to digest that they're dead without having to know details.

I don't know so much about the "no mourners" thing. Just the fact that they were brought to be beside Fred seems to show that at least the Weasleys were able long enough to drag themselves away from mourning for their own son/brother to recognize them as well. That and I'm sure there wasn't a lot of time for anyone to simply stand still and mourn the dead: there were others injured and in need of help. We even see that later, that Ginny has left her family's side to help those who still need it. But the really beautiful, bittersweet thing about it is that even if nobody there knew who they were, or if everyone was simply too numb to digest it, we at least know that, even in death, Remus and Tonks have each other.

The fact that they lay as though sleeping tells me volumes. That both were finally at peace and had died fighting... it's enough :agree:

By the way Lillbet, your avatar is hilarious.

Thanks :D

I absolutely hated Lupin's death, and felt it was unnecessary.

First of all, is JKR trying to mess Harry up for life? He's not only lost his parents and his godfather, but now he lost the last person tied closely to his parents. Lupin was the last thing that tied Harry to his parents in a concrete sense, that he could learn about his parents and ask questions about them because of Lupin.

Secondly, how cruel is it to Lupin? He just had a child! He found love, got married, had a child, and overcame his own inner demons to accept what that meant! He finally was beginning to be okay with himself and what he was, enough to try and live a normal life anyway. But the second he was okay with it, JKR didn't give him the chance to live with his new acceptance of himself. It seemed so unnecessarily cruel.

And finally, the death was so glossed over. There was no funeral, no immense feeling of injustice or sadness on Harry's part (Lupin was one of his dad's best friends!), just the realization that he was dead. It just didn't give the man justice, considering how much he helped Harry in the third year. Without him, Harry would have never learned the Patronus charm, which has saved his life multiple times!

Lupin was probably my favorite character as the series wore on, and I just hated seeing him die.

Rowling must have a particularly love for orphans.

Harry's one.

And now she killed both Ted's parents.

Weird. ^^

I've said it before and I'll say it again. . . I think she did it, at least in part, to show that war does not discriminate. Death doesn't only look for those who've had the fullest lives, or consider who might need or deserve to live the most. It doesn't care that people around the dying might not be able to take one more emotional blow. It's hard and it's cruel, but it's realistic.

Apart from that, though, I think the fact that JKR basically has said that she replaced Lupin for Mr. Weasley "another father" to die indicates that the fact that he was a father was pretty important to her reasoning. What he says to Harry in the forest seems to be the main point behind his death, that he's meant to symbolize sacrifice made for the future. He, like James and Lily, died so that his child might live and know a better world.

I wish there had been more detail.
Even though there was only one sentence about him being dead, I bawled the most when I read that he had died.

Lupin has been one of my easy favorites since Prisoner of Azkaban, and I loved that she kept bringing him back. I always knew that he would die, and I thought it would be in this one, but it's still hard to face. I do wish we had more details about what happened with him.

Poor Loony Loopy Lupin. (Ah, Peeves.)

The death of Lupin was sad (I don't cry while reading often, but I was saddened by it.) I completely saw it coming, though. Even before the book came out, the moment I saw Sirius die, I just knew the last true Maurader (sp?) would die. Wormtail's death was more dramatic than Lupin's was, but it served its purpose.

Truthfully, I found it satisfying not because of how it was stated that he died, but how Tonks kept bringing up her husband during the brawl. It seemed as though she knew he was going to die, and wanted to be with him in the end. And, when their bodies are just lying there, you know they must of died together. So, despite showing it in such a cold manor, it was satisfying.

And we never heard if Teddy is a werewolf or not... ;)

I've said it before and I'll say it again. . . I think she did it, at least in part, to show that war does not discriminate. Death doesn't only look for those who've had the fullest lives, or consider who might need or deserve to live the most. It doesn't care that people around the dying might not be able to take one more emotional blow. It's hard and it's cruel, but it's realistic.I agree - I definately think she was aiming for the message of war not discriminating.

What niggles at me, though, is that Tonks and Lupin were very capable. I was flipping through DH earlier and noticed that they were the first to throw up a protego charm when MoM officials crashed the wedding. Wouldn't realism be that the less adept fighters (non Order members and some of the students) be more likely to die than them? Granted, they were probably in the front lines, and certainly sometimes skill will only get you so far in a haphazard battle. But for them BOTH to die when so many other leading characters live just strikes me as a bit contrived. Unless they were targeted - but we don't really know.

What niggles at me, though, is that Tonks and Lupin were very capable.
Well, Mad-Eye was very capable as well. As was Sirius. For all we know, they were hit from behind and never were given the chance to look their killers in the eye.

But maybe the fact that they were so capable is indicative of the kind of battle they were fighting: probably right in the thick of it, trying to take down as many Death Eaters as possible and absorbing as many blows as necessary to protect the younger and less able.

Thats what bugs me, as owlpostgirl mentioned. Lupin and Tonks were both very capable. The frenzy of battle obviously plays a part and skill can only buy you so far, but unless they were both VERY unlucky or they were targetted specifically I'd have expected the weaker fighters to fall and these two to survive. Unless they did what I suspect it to have been in their character to do and put themselves in harms way. Intentionally getting between the Death Eaters and those considered "Weaker Fighters". I don't know, gah this is one I really want answered.

Thats what bugs me, as owlpostgirl mentioned. Lupin and Tonks were both very capable. The frenzy of battle obviously plays a part and skill can only buy you so far, but unless they were both VERY unlucky or they were targetted specifically I'd have expected the weaker fighters to fall and these two to survive. Unless they did what I suspect it to have been in their character to do and put themselves in harms way. Intentionally getting between the Death Eaters and those considered "Weaker Fighters". I don't know, gah this is one I really want answered.

We are told in the first chapter, about their marriage: Voldemort tells Bellatrix. It is obvious at that time that they are not only an intense target for Bellatrix, but very undesirable from a DE point of view. When Tonks tells Lupin, that Bellatrix tried to kill her, he was unable to speak. My guess is that the DE's couldn't believe their look when they saw them, and went after them specifically.

Sad thing is that if we look at how much Bellatrix hated, the fact, of a half - blood niece. She would have probably killed Tonks anyway. Lupin may have survived if he hadn't married her, but as Dumbledore says: what is a life without love? He had a wife and son he loved, even if it was for a comparatively short time.

See now whenever I think of Lupin fighting during that battle I have a polaroid kinda image in my mind of him standing back to back/side by side with Tonk's with the picture of his son in one hand and his wand in the other. A Father and a Fighter to the last. I dunno why, but that image thats how I see it.

Yeah I do agree, the DE would have a thing against Tonks and Lupin, especially after the point Voldermort made of mocking Bellatrix for their relationship.

Well, Mad-Eye was very capable as well. As was Sirius. For all we know, they were hit from behind and never were given the chance to look their killers in the eye.

But maybe the fact that they were so capable is indicative of the kind of battle they were fighting: probably right in the thick of it, trying to take down as many Death Eaters as possible and absorbing as many blows as necessary to protect the younger and less able.
Sirius seemed overconfident against Bellatrix - laughing and taunting her. I figured that got him killed. And I got the impression that Mad-Eye died because Dung panicked and Disapparated (at least, that was what the characters were saying - I guess they figured Dung's actions distracted Moody). But Lupin was always very level-headed; and Tonks, despite some clumsiness, never behaved less than a fully-trained Auror.

I could see them willing to sacrifice for others. That's a good point. And I suppose if they were together and made that decision it would make sense for them both to die. But IIRC students and staff were up in the towers, and Lupin was down in the grounds (I think Arthur and Kingsley were there too - but someone correct me here).

I guess where I'm getting at is that while JKR was going for the realism of war (which is fine), she still cheated a little: knocking off two very capable fighters who just happen to be married seems like she's pushing the statistics on the death toll. If Tonks never made it to Lupin, it seems coincidental that she still died. If she did make it to him, it would only have increased their odds.

My god, I've never cried as much as I did when I read that they had died.

I had a feeling that Lupin probably was going to die, since he's in the Order and everything, and the same with Tonks, but when they had the baby I really got my hopes up, hoping that JKR would spare them for little Teddy's sake.
But I was wrong, and I can not really express how I feel right now. I kind of feel stupid for beeing this upset about a couple of fictional characters deaths but I can't stop crying.

I mean, it was just so, so, so unfair to Lupin, and Tonks, but for Lupin the most I guess. Lupin had not had a great life, if you think about it. Sure, he had friends, but James and Sirius were like brothers and Lupin was probably not as close to them as James an Sirius were to each other. Then they died and Lupin was left, pretty much, alone... And the fact that he was a warewulf must have been tough. With all does judgemental things people thought about him is sure to have made him feel like he wasn't lovable. At least that's what I think.
BUT THEN CAME TONKS!!!
And he's finally happy. Married and a kid!

Thats why I think it's so unfair, he had... what? a year of true happiness, and then it had to end?! One happy year in his whole life (my opinion!) and nothing more.

And dear Teddy... Why, oh why, did JKR leave him alone? Thats just awful! I feel so sad for him...

I think that the reason he got married and had a child so fast, was becuse JKR wanted him to be happy before she killed him. At least I hope that true...

And an other thing I thought about, was that: WHY did Tonks leave her mother's home? Maybe if she hadn't, then Teddy would at least have one parent. But on the other had, maybe it had been sader if Tonks had to mourn Remus's death, than to kill both and leave Teddy (how didn't have the chance to get to know them, and therefore did not know what he lost) alone... I don't know...

And my opinion on who the killer was, is that Bellatrix could have killed Tonks becuse the whole "bloodtraitor"-thing, but BELLATRIX DID NOT KILL REMUS!
When Tonks asked were Remus was, it was said that he had last been seen fighting that Dolohov death eater, and a couple of pages later we see Dolohov fighting with someone else, so my guess is that Dolohov killed poor Remus and then went for a new victim...

There's so much to say about Lupin's and Tonks's deaths, but it's just too said to talk about. I'm pretty much crying as I'm writing this. And the one thing that could make it worse, is that: What if Remus and 'Dora were the two characters that JKR didn't intend to kill? What if they still could have lived if it only wasn't for her chande of mind? And if it WAS these characters JKR ment, than why DID she change her mind? So that Lupin could suport Harry when he went in to the forest?! THAT'S AN OUTRAGE!!!! That's NOT an excuse to kill him!!!

I am so ****** at JKR right now, she's a lovley lady, but this... (*Screaming!*)

Since Remus Lupin and Nymphadora Tonks (N. Lupin) were my ABSOLUTE favorite characters, I am one of those that LOATHE Deathly Hallows.

Sirius seemed overconfident against Bellatrix - laughing and taunting her. I figured that got him killed.

That was exactly as I saw it. Plus Sirius was craving a battle and he wasn't gone to stop til one of them was dead. He loved Harry I have no doubts about it but he wasn't Harry's father so he didn't really think about his responsibility to try and stay alive for him.

And I got the impression that Mad-Eye died because Dung panicked and Disapparated (at least, that was what the characters were saying - I guess they figured Dung's actions distracted Moody).

I think had Dung not disapparated it is possible he would have been the one hit with the AK and I would have been okay with that.

But Lupin was always very level-headed; and Tonks, despite some clumsiness, never behaved less than a fully-trained Auror.

Yea I think the two of them combined were possibly two of the best fighters the Order had. Which IMO thinks they were targeted for death more quickly. The DE had to eliminate them ASAP in order to get them out of the fight. I have this bad bad feeling that Bella was the one who killed Tonk's because Tonk's brought shame on Bella by marrying Lupin. And it's possible Lupin died trying to save Tonk's from Bella.

Just thinking about it all makes me want to cry again. :upset:

I agree - I definately think she was aiming for the message of war not discriminating.

What niggles at me, though, is that Tonks and Lupin were very capable. I was flipping through DH earlier and noticed that they were the first to throw up a protego charm when MoM officials crashed the wedding. Wouldn't realism be that the less adept fighters (non Order members and some of the students) be more likely to die than them? Granted, they were probably in the front lines, and certainly sometimes skill will only get you so far in a haphazard battle. But for them BOTH to die when so many other leading characters live just strikes me as a bit contrived. Unless they were targeted - but we don't really know.

This has probably been answered and I apologize if I'm being repetitive, but Tonks was, indeed, targeted. In the first chapter, we see Voldemort telling Bellatrix to hunt her down and kill her, and Bellatrix takes the job eagerly.

Furthermore, as you said yourself, war does not discriminate. Even if they hadn't been targeted, they faced the danger of death as they battled. They were fighters and as in all wars, even the best, most skilled people die. Age, skill, ranking - none of it matters when your defending yourself in the flurry of attacks. It's either life or death, and the two concepts aren't chosen by the killer or the victim.

Whilst initially I had doubts over Dolohov's ability to defeat Remus in a duel, it seems I might have been wrong. Even assuming the duel was fair Dolohov may have had a higher ability than I thought. Re-reading the Order of the Phoenix Dolohov is seen to defeat Mad-Eye Moody in the Battle at the Ministry. Whilst Remus is seen to duel with Lucius Malfoy, and come out unscaythed it would follow logic that Dolohov would be equal in skill.

I'm not sure if Tonks and Remus would have been killed by the same enemy, although I still like to think of them as fighting side by side. It does represent the sadness of war, sadly both of them died so maybe I'm just clutching at answers wondering who did it. Guess we'll have to wait until we truly see.

I agree that Sirius was headstrong and taunted Bellatrix and that is what bought about his end, the same thing can be seen in the duel between Bellatrix and Molly Weasley in this book(7). It is even remarked upon by Harry. Mad-Eye's death I've always linked to 'Dungus disapperating and leaving Mad-Eye to take the full force of the Killing Curse.

Ah Remus. Yet another sacrifice on the alter of freedom. Love saved you, gave you a gift, then a future, again in death for Tonks is still with you. Tonks fell first, didn't she, and your shock was all the opening Bellatrix needed. Small comfort perhaps, but Bellatrix lies unmarked, unmourned, forgotten, while you Remus, you and Tonks will live forever.

My biggest fear would have been Remus OR Tonks dying separately, so when I found out both died, I was a bit happy. Bittersweet, because I wanted them to stay together since they had trouble getting together.

But, Remus was my ALL TIME favorite character, and even though I cried at Harry's "death," Remus (and Fred, too) left a big impression on my thoughts that night.

Remus was one of the two characters I had right when I made my own predictions of who would die. I knew Sirius was going to die...I knew Dumbledore was going to die...and I knew Remus had to die (along with Snape).

After Peter died, and then when Remus made Harry godfather, I felt that the Marauders had to come to a close. The last man standing and all. It was kind of symbolic...how that whole era came to an end, Snape, Lily, Remus, Peter, James, and Sirius. I didn't think any of them could have ultimately survived and gone on with their lives.

I had a strange foreboding when he entered the battle haveing just had a son and when it actuclly happened, at first i forced myself to take the line "apparently sleeping" literally so I wouldn't have to accept it.

I had a strange foreboding when he entered the battle haveing just had a son and when it actuclly happened, at first i forced myself to take the line "apparently sleeping" literally so I wouldn't have to accept it.

I did take that quite seriously, I sorta skimmed over that part and only saw Tonks and Lupin "apparently sleeping". So I had no idea that they died until it was mentioned again a little later on.

I thought that remus's death was a sad part in book. I mean.. he left his wife with his child to go help which, is an honorable thing to do but, I personaly thought that he should of stayed home with Tonks. Even though Lupin is kind of restless like his friend and, Harry's father James. He can't stand to sit around and wait while his friends are out helping to destroy Voldermort.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/news/2007-07-25-harry-potter-spoilers_N.htm

JKR had not originally intended for Remus and Tonks to die. It was so obvious in the writing. There was no closure for those two characters. Harsh. Very harsh.

I KNOW i didnt even realise they had died!!
it was such a shock!

I KNOW i didnt even realise they had died!!
it was such a shock!

Me too! I was just wiping my eyes after Fred's death and then it is oh-so-casually mentioned that Remus (and Tonks of course) were dead. I skimmed over it and then realised what I had read. I was really disappointed in how these two deaths were handled. Although Harry's connection to Remus wasn't as strong as his with Sirius, there was still a connection and I think his death could have been handled a bit more respectfully as befits a character of his integrity. I agree with a previous poster - HARSH!

I don't think JKR did intend Remus to die in the beginning - I read that she gave Arthur a repreive. Did Remus take his place??

http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/news/2007-07-25-harry-potter-spoilers_N.htm

JKR had not originally intended for Remus and Tonks to die. It was so obvious in the writing. There was no closure for those two characters. Harsh. Very harsh.Well, that's the confirmation I've been waiting for...

It really frustrates me that JKR chose this for Lupin and Tonks. What really cuts me up inside is that I just didn't feel this was the arc Lupin deserved. JKR has said that Lupin represents those who are mistreated by society because they are ill or disabled; it just leaves an awful feeling with me that such a character would die a victim of his oppression. Lupin was just coming around to accepting himself; and he had suffered for years; I felt his arc was to earn some happiness and respite, to show that people can overcome adversity.

Folks who saw the Today show interview said that JKR spared Arthur Weasley but killed another father in his place at the end of DH, because she wanted to kill a father. While I'm overjoyed that Arthur was not killed, it hardly seems fair to pass his story onto Lupin, who already had a wonderful arc. Lupin's oppression, ending in a violent death by those who hated him...it doesn't even resonate with me as a father dying; it resonates as a person who suffered and couldn't overcome it.

Well, that's the confirmation I've been waiting for...

It really frustrates me that JKR chose this for Lupin and Tonks. What really cuts me up inside is that I just didn't feel this was the arc Lupin deserved. JKR has said that Lupin represents those who are mistreated by society because they are ill or disabled; it just leaves an awful feeling with me that such a character would die a victim of his oppression. Lupin was just coming around to accepting himself; and he had suffered for years; I felt his arc was to earn some happiness and respite, to show that people can overcome adversity.

Folks who saw the Today show interview said that JKR spared Arthur Weasley but killed another father in his place at the end of DH, because she wanted to kill a father. While I'm overjoyed that Arthur was not killed, it hardly seems fair to pass his story onto Lupin, who already had a wonderful arc. Lupin's oppression, ending in a violent death by those who hated him...it doesn't even resonate with me as a father dying; it resonates as a person who suffered and couldn't overcome it.

Lupin didn't deserve the bad stuff character he'd become after being randomly buddled with Tonks either, if anything that killed him off, their 'relationship' just made no sense whatsoever, like the whole get together, marriage within months and child hog we're expected to believe.

Tonks was the reason for their deaths, pure and simple. :grumble:

What was also really bad about Lupin's death, and also Moody nd Tonk's death, is that they all died believing Snape to be a traitor. This is escpecially bad for Lupin because of his history with Snape, and that they could never reconsile (or at least trust each other).

Excerpt from the JKR interview on the Today Show

JKR : "The deaths were all very, very considered. I don't even kill fiction characters lighty."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19959323/

Snape should have survived long enough for all the characters to throw a party for him and give him kisses and flowers and candies and ballons and cake and thank him for what a wonderful perosn he has been in his life and throughout the series.

The fact that Lupin did not get to acknowledge the wonderful person Snape has always been is very sad in deed.

Excerpt from the JKR interview on the Today Show

JKR : "The deaths were all very, very considered. I don't even kill fiction characters lighty."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19959323/

Yes, right! By the way she killed Lupin and Tonks it seems that this is exactly what she is doing. She could have found out plenty of reasons not to kill Lupin, much more than to kill him!

Yes, right! By the way she killed Lupin and Tonks it seems that this is exactly what she is doing. She could have found out plenty of reasons not to kill Lupin, much more than to kill him!

Blame Tonks, she ruined and killed his character from the beginning. :grumble:

But that's the cruelty of war: brave individuals are torn unceremoniously from us, from their loved ones, from their children. But even more heartbreaking than losing my favorite character when he was perhaps as happy as he'd ever been in his life was hearing him say that he was most sorry to not see his son grow up (I'm getting teary just thinking about it!).

.

I totally agree....and couldn't have said it better!!

I was sad too that Lupin and Tonks had died...but was kind of numb at that point. I imagine them back to back, fighting together to the end....:upset:

Blame Tonks, she ruined and killed his character from the beginning. :grumble:

Yes, I must say that she has. he was supposed to provide wisdom and support for Harry and fight important fights. In stead he was limited to the role of father of Teddy and husband of Tonks. Not satisfactory at all, I must say.

But he did fight...he was one of the protectors assigned to ensure that Harry was safely brought to the Burrow at the start. And let's not forget he played an important part in the underground resistance- as himself as well as under the name of Romulus.
And Harry himself didn't want Remus abandoning his wife and unborn child to come with them. He'd never have seen Remus as 'just' a husband and father- family is far too important to Harry for that, and let's not forget that at the end, Remus did fight- and his was one of the spirits that emerged when Harry needed protection from the Dementors in the Forest when he went to face his death. Hardly a 'limited' role, I should say.

I don't think he had a limited or narrow role at all. I love Tonks and Lupin - I thought their relationship was a great character arc for him: Tonks and Teddy were helping Lupin to heal emotionally and realize he could have a life with people who cared about him.

It was fine until JKR killed him and Tonks - it totally dashed the meaning behind his story - he and Tonks never found peace from the world. I think JKR was too focused on making him a father to kill, that she lost sight of the story Lupin already had.

I saw it more as closure for the Marauders, especially when he and Sirius went along with James and Lily to the Forest...and it was cruel, yes, unnecessary, yes- but all the more heartbreaking for that very reason, given that he'd just had a son and had everything to live for.

I felt like Lupin had moved on from the Marauders. Sirius was trapped in the past; but not Lupin - at least, not in the end - he was just starting to really live his life and find a place in the world.

What really upsets me is that JKR has said Lupin was supposed to represent people the world mistreated because of illness or disability. So while I feared his death constantly, I always held out hope because in my heart it felt that it would be so wrong to kill off the character that is struggling to overcome oppression; especially after he had suffered for so long - if anyone deserved a chance at happiness it was Lupin. Had he and Tonks lived, it would have been a great story about two people overcoming a cruel society. Their story just feels so incomplete.

She decided to kill Remus and Tonks in book 5. Believe me, she knew exactly what she was doing when she gave a quarter sentence to let us know he had died.

In all honesty, because she has said several times that he was one of her favorite characters, I think she had a very hard time writing his death. She had a lot of brilliant opportunities waiting in the winds (fenrir and bella) but did not use them. It would have only taken a few lines to describe how they died, so I don't think she left it out for lack of space.

Remus was my favorite character too (above Harry and everyone else) and I frankly was grateful not to have read about how he died. that way I could imagine him surrounded by 15 DE's, using his wand less magic we saw on the train and taking 14 out before finally being killed. Or whatever other scenario I wanted.

I was glad she let him die and return to the after-world where he could be happy with his friends at last. And Lily and Tonks can chat! Teddy is left in loving hands as Harry is now as well. So the Marauder's re-united, got a couple of mates and left their legacy on earth in Harry and Teddy.

Now the only thing left to do is find Sirius a mate, lol.

ps. I do sympathise with those who wanted him to live...I thought he was the greatest. But at least we can all be happy that he is in a place where he can REALLY be happy now.

Blame Tonks, she ruined and killed his character from the beginning. :grumble:

As much as I'd like too I'll try not too.She did after all give him some happiness.

The thing about his death is that it was there to solely illustrate a point,the different situation in which an orphan(Teddy lupin),will live because people fought for a better world.Remus deserved better then being a side lesson.

As much as I'd like too I'll try not too.She did after all give him some happiness.

The thing about his death is that it was there to solely illustrate a point,the different situation in which an orphan(Teddy lupin),will live because people fought for a better world.Remus deserved better then being a side lesson.

I guess so but she did butcher his character somewhat and their 'relationship' hardly made much sense, or was realistic to me.

I felt like Lupin had moved on from the Marauders. Sirius was trapped in the past; but not Lupin - at least, not in the end - he was just starting to really live his life and find a place in the world.

Amen. Lupin had moved on. He saw how it wasn't what you were but who you were that mattered. He embraced it. He had a family. JK Rowling killed him. That is one of the only reasons I hate her. The book is much more than a fantasy story. It's about love. Finding love, showing love, giving love, accepting love. Lupin accepted it, he found a life. He died but not in vain. He continued life with Teddy. :upset: This is such a hard topic for me.

Well said Wickedboy!!! JK knew what she was doing and she did it for a reason.
I like that fact that we dont know how it happened aswell. I am grateful for that because that is not something I would want playing over and over again in my head. The picture of them lying there peacefully "as if asleep" was perfect because it gave me a sence of peace for Lupin finally.

I guess so but she did butcher his character somewhat and their 'relationship' hardly made much sense, or was realistic to me.

Made little sense to me either.

Once upon a time we had lengthy discussions on the "theory" of a Tonks/Lupin relationship (back before it was canon), and though there were just as many reasons that it shouldn't work, there are also lots of reasons that it does. I'm sure if we'd seen more first-hand of how their relationship developed, it would be clearer. To put it simply, though, I figure they just found in each other what the other was lacking (or at least something latent that needed a reason to emerge): Remus needed an outlet for the youth and humor and fun that he rarely got to experience, and Tonks probably found in him a kind of anchor--someone mature and grounded--which can be very appealing to someone young like her, entering a new and sometimes scary adult word (I can speak from experience there). It seems a perfect backdrop that they found each other in a time of war as well.

I just want to say...I don't want to be the angry fan that latches onto an issue and constantly posts and complains. I want to be at peace with Tonks and Lupin dying - I hate welling up every time I think of HP - I don't want to have to push these books away. It just kills me that they died - probably targetted by the DEs. After Harry and Co defeated the evil of LV and made the world a better place...it seems like a cruel comparison that Tonks and Lupin couldn't escape the hatred LV had exploited. I just feel like the evil of bigotry won a victory in the narrative.

I know JKR loved Lupin - and she treats him wonderfully throughout the book - there's no doubt she cared. Even the peaceful looks on their faces, and Lupin seeming happy in the woods. But it just seems really hollow to me: I feel like JKR is telling me Lupin got what he deserved, but its not what I'm seeing - Lupin was happy with his child and wife, he deserved to overcome hatred.

Idunno. I just feel awful and hate that I do. I'm really glad that others are okay with what happened. I want to feel all right with it too.

The Lupin and Tonks relationship seemed fine to me, I thought it was sweet, I liked theirs and Bill and Fleur’s. We didn't know about it, because Harry didn't know about it. The relationship between two adults is not a teenager’s, who spends no social time with them, business; which is what Harry was in OOTP and HBP.

I was thinking though, when I was reading the chapters when the trio were living in Grimmauld Place, and Harry said that he thought Ron and Hermione may have fallen asleep holding hands, and how that made him lonely. I figured that is what Sirius felt like in OOTP. Those two (Lupin and Tonks) were probably there a lot, when they weren't working, and the closer they got the more Sirius must have felt isolated. It made me feel really sad for Sirius actually. In fact DH made me feel sorry for every single character, as if, I saw them all clearly for the first time, even those who had died previously.

I could see it coming

Once upon a time we had lengthy discussions on the "theory" of a Tonks/Lupin relationship (back before it was canon), and though there were just as many reasons that it shouldn't work, there are also lots of reasons that it does. I'm sure if we'd seen more first-hand of how their relationship developed, it would be clearer. To put it simply, though, I figure they just found in each other what the other was lacking (or at least something latent that needed a reason to emerge): Remus needed an outlet for the youth and humor and fun that he rarely got to experience, and Tonks probably found in him a kind of anchor--someone mature and grounded--which can be very appealing to someone young like her, entering a new and sometimes scary adult word (I can speak from experience there). It seems a perfect backdrop that they found each other in a time of war as well.


Well said, I've always believed that...opposites attract, after all!
And I never thought that Tonks ruined his character at all...transforming him into someone who was just a father or just a husband. He was a husband, father as WELL AS a fighter for the Order of the Phoenix and one of Harry's most trusted friends/mentors. Tonks, for me, was just another way to add more facets to who he was. I never felt that Lupin as a character was ever set in the background...the fact that he came out of the stone settles it for me as far as how important he was.

I always had a bad feeling that Remus would die. The idea never bothered me much until DH when he was married and Teddy was born. I always thought that his death would be okay because he would be hanging out with James and Sirius again, but him leaving Ted behind is what made his death sad for me. It's like he died just when he began to live.

I love all the comments that this is "cruel" and heartbreaking, and unnecessary. That is precisely what every casualty of war is, or at least that's what I think Rowling feels.

I wasn't terribly surprised that Remus died. I thought all of the Marauders would probably be gone. It made it all the more touching in the scene with James, Sirius, Lilly and Remus walking Harry into the woods.

I was however surprised at the handling of Remus and Tonks deaths. I was shocked to just read that they were laying beside Fred's body.

but it made sense, in a way, ronni. In war, we are not always by our fallen comrades. the book is always (well, 90% of the time) from Harry's point of view. he cannot be all places at all times. The only death we got to witness up close and personal was Dobbys. I thought it was touching also, that Remus was with Harry in the forest, with Lily, James and Sirius. This tells me, at least, that Remus had a very big impact on Harry. These 4 people that came back were people that not only cared for Harry (the Weasleys, etc care for him) but that he felt an affinity with. His parents, obviously, but Lupin was the first teacher he connected with on a deep level. Sirius was the miracle godfather. I loved that Lupin was there, at the close.

I was devastated!
I felt that at least one of the Marauders should live…*or that Remus would at least get to see Werewovles having more rights!
What a tragic story…
I really wasnt sure what Lupin's deal was through most of the book, and his revelation of how he felt his marriage was a mistake was a big shock to me! I never saw that coming…*
But i really felt for Lupin. His two best friends were dead, his other friend betrayed their friendship, and he suffered a terrible affliction!
I did want to see Lupin fight Fenrir! Was he killed by Fenrir? So many questions plauge his and Tonks's deaths just because we didnt witness them!
poor Teddy!

Lupin was one of my two fave characters and neither of them made through. I guess, in the bigger scheme of things, it makes sense that he died, but I still don't have to like it. I, too, was hoping one of the Marauders would survive, and I was hoping it would be Remus. But, alas, it was not to be.
As for his reaction to being married and then a dad-to-be; everyone seems shocked by this but me. We heard a bit about him being anger/bitter in Order, when Sirius is talking about him and Umbridge. In HBP, during a "frosty Christmas" we hear him speak with bitterness about what he is doing. It makes sense that he would feel as he did; he never felt "worthy" because the society in which he lived made him feel less. His friends tried, but James died, Peter "died" and then Sirius was in jail for 12 years. The few people besides his parents who didn't seem to care what he was once a month. Then he falls in love, gets married in haste (a war is coming you know) thinks back and regrets. Harry helped him figure out it was okay and right. He went out fighting, for Tonks, Teddy, Lily, James, Sirius and Harry. It's how he would have wanted to go.

Lupin and Tonks deaths were devestating, but I do feel that it was VERY important for Lupin to be able to walk through the forest with Harry along with Lily, James, and Sirius.

I also think that we really got a great perspective on Harry's feelings toward death and the war when we saw (and mourned) Lupin and Tonks' deaths so briefly.

Harry was the one who had to conquer death, and rather than feeling upset about everyone dying to save HIM, he had come to terms with death. He's hardened by the war, but he's also about to understand "the big picture".

I loved it when he said to Lupin "and right after Teddy" or something like that. Harry knows what it's like to grow up without parents. The difference was, Teddy had people who loved him; his grandmother and the Potters. How fitting that Harry took a part in helping Teddy grow up. I loved that part in the epilogue.

Looking back, I realise I had been foolish not to guess that Lupin would die. He was the last of the Marauders, if he had not died it would not have fitted, would it? All the Marauders gone...it was sad, but I realised that Lupin would die when he made Harry godfather, and I knew that Harry would play the role for Lupin Jr. that Sirius never got the chance to play fully for Harry.

I was honestly more stunned and saddened by the deaths Lupin and Tonks more than any other character in the book. Though Fred, Dobby, and Hedwig left me feeling short of breath and experiencing a slight jolt in my heart, I was rather tearful when Harry peered into the great hall and saw their bodies lying next to Fred's.

I'm not entirely sure what it is that really gets to me the most. The reasons that come into my mind are also the reasons that help me get over the feeling that I lost a friend.

I am sad that they were both finally happy. Once they were together and have Teddy, they seem to be happy and content, at least with their family life. Then they die. Yet, they were happy, they did get to that point, and they know that Teddy will be well loved by Andromeda, Harry, and everyone that knew either of them. They also know that Teddy will be told to be proud of his parents, who died bravely to make a better world for him, the rest of the magical community, and the world.

I am sad that I don't know how they died. Not that I am ignorant to the blow by blow play, but the thought that one of them could have whitnessed the other's lifeless body, or whitness whatever it was that made them die. I am much happier thinking that they died without knowing the other one was already gone.

Perhaps what gets me the most, is that I always wanted to die in bed at the same time that my (futrue) husband does. Seeing how their combined deaths makes a double blow for people, I feel rather selfish in my original thoughts.

Just something to ponder I suppose.

....there needs to be a pensive smiley face on here! hahaha

As much as i hated the thought of dead Remus at first, i think I prefer it this way. This way the three Marauders end up together again as they should be, assuming there's a life after death in the magical world.(of course, we're not counting the traiter, or as Snape said "we're not counting vermin, are we?" )

I would have liked to know how Remus was killed along with Tonks. I thought that was a bit of a let down but I assume there were more important scenes that needed our attention.
I very much agree...i hope that such questions will be answered in that mini-encyclopedia soon!!
But the death of both,Tonks and Lupin,left me sad!...I didnt want teddy to become another harry!

I think in Lupin and Tonks' deaths J.K. Rowling showed (as in other places) that while she is a good writer, she is not a great writer.

A great writer would clearly demonstrate to her readers why it was necessary for Lupin and Tonks to die, according to their character arcs. A great writer would allow beloved characters to interact with readers in a death scene that provided closure to their lives. Instead, Rowling axed them in a couple repeated sentences. She decided she didn't want to kill Arthur Weasley, so Lupin had to die, and if Lupin had to die, she might as well kill Tonks.

I think the book was very good overall, but Rowling really let me down with this. And I'm not even a big Lupin or Tonks fan.

I was completely shocked when Dobby and Fred died but for some weird reason I wasn't shocked that Lupin got killed. It was strange because I had the feeling that Lupin may die since the third book and then when Sirius died in the fifth book I knew immediatly that he was going to die. I mean look

1) James Potter
2) Sirius Black

Two Marauders dead by the end of the fifth book and one in Harry's debt so would sacrifice himself (which he does) so Harry would survive so it was almost certain that Lupin was going to go. I also read somewhere that Arthur Weasley got the reprive and it was Lupin and Tonks she had never intended to kill of.

It seems to me that Lupin's death was planned from the beginning, because he needed to be in the forest with Lily, James and Sirius. Tonks, on the other hand...man, body blow.

That's what I mean... she had planned to kill Arthur, then changed her mind, and seems to just seize on Lupin (and, consequently, Tonks) as the next best thing. I don't see how a reader can feel anything other than confusion by his death... one second, they are important figures in Harry's life, fighting with him, then they're both dead, and we have no idea how or by whom? It just seems like we deserved a death scene of some sort, or at least a paragraph where Lupin says, "Harry, I'm glad you told me to stay with Tonks. Now I'm going to make sure the son I'm so thrilled to have has a world to live in."

I think I was reading too fast, because I only realised they had died when they were recapping who had died... I looked back and I couldnt find anything! I had a feeling, like many others, that Lupin would go. But to kill Tonks as well! I wasn't ready for that. Poor Teddy! Not knowing his parents... Especially when they were such great people. At least the Marauders were united in the end.

That's what I mean... she had planned to kill Arthur, then changed her mind, and seems to just seize on Lupin (and, consequently, Tonks) as the next best thing. I don't see how a reader can feel anything other than confusion by his death... one second, they are important figures in Harry's life, fighting with him, then they're both dead, and we have no idea how or by whom? It just seems like we deserved a death scene of some sort, or at least a paragraph where Lupin says, "Harry, I'm glad you told me to stay with Tonks. Now I'm going to make sure the son I'm so thrilled to have has a world to live in."

Their deaths served a very important purpose. If you re-read those chapters you can see that it is the loss of Fred, Remus, and Tonks that gives Harry the courage to accept his fate. He loved them so much, and they died fighting for him, and he can't let their deaths be in vain, and he's the only one who can prevent this war from continuing. Their loss propels him into the forest to meet Voldemort.

And there actually IS a scene where Lupin says he hopes his son will be proud, knowing that his father died trying to make a better world for him.

I hoped with all of my heart that Lupin wouldnt die,but when I read up to that point in the book I froze and started crying like a baby because Lupin's death was a huge disapointment to me.

I think Remus is happier dead. At the end of the day a tiny bit of him might have wanted to come back for his son. However the only place Remus ever felt at peace was with his friends. Sirius' death probably destroyed Remus more than we can comprehend. The wizarding world had shunned him and his last source of strentgh had gone. Remus loved Tonks, but in the Deathly Hallows scenario he doesn't realise exactly how much Tonks means to him.
The birth of his son obviously brought some hope and joy. But it took Hary's rejection to make him realise that. I'm pretty sure that had Remus lived the same insecurities would have troubled him during Teddy's growing years.
I loved Remus and and I really wish he hadn't died. But from the point of view of the story and Remus' own charecter I feel he could have never been at peace without James, Lily and Sirius.

Lupin's and Tonk's deaths have bothered me more than any others since they happened. Very tragic!

Yeah, I half expected Lupin to die.....but Tonks, like a knife to the heart!

I am still in shock [just finished the book tonight] I thought I’d have at least one of my favorite characters survive.

I was really hoping that Remus would be the one marauder to survive and even more when Teddy was born. Though I guess it’s nice that Tonks and Lupin went together I don’t think either could have handled the death of the other. I said before the book came out that if one dies it would be a blessing to let the other die too. Well it happened.

Bella killing them could be since Tonks said her Aunt was so set on killing her at the start of the book. I wonder if Jo planned for them to die. We know now that Arthur is the one that got a saved from death. Was Lupin and Tonks the ones who died in his place? or, at least Lupin. An article I read said but instead [of Arthur dying] another father dies at the end of DH. After all I could easily have seen Arthur during the resurrection stone thing being there for Harry. Then maybe Jo thought like I did that it would be kinder to off Tonks as well if Lupin perished. Just look at how Tonks couldn’t stay at home despite having to know it would be possible that both she and Lupin could die leaving their son only a few months old with out either of his parents.


I don’t think Remus was close to many people[other then Padfoot and Prongs], Tonks marrying him some of the friends she did have probably didn’t want to associate with her anymore. I’m sure Molly and Arthur [and other Weasleys] grieved for them but their grieve for their son came first. Not that as Molly was crying tears on Fred's body some of those tears weren’t for Tonks and Lupin and even Teddy. I mean Molly and Arthur probably knew more about Tonks and Lupin relationship then anyone from what we learn at the end of HBP, it had been Molly and Arthur who had been trying to convince Remus to see things differently. Molly even try to cheer Tonks up when Harry is dropped off to the Burrow in HBP. It sad about Teddy but he didn’t really end up like Harry, he was probably raised by Andromeda, Harry and his family were a big part of his life, as were some of the Weasleys, if not all of them too.

This is very true but its not as like this could not been achieved by other deaths say Hagrid and one of Ron’s parents. Harry was certainly far closer to one this people then he ever was to Lupin or Tonks.

On the other hand had that happened we would probobly be having the same conversation about how useless Hagrid's death was in a thread called "Rubeus Hagrid's Death"

On the other hand had that happened we would probobly be having the same conversation about how useless Hagrid's death was in a thread called "Rubeus Hagrid's Death"

But I think Harry's relationship with Lupin was more mature than it was with Hagrid. Harry atleast in DH was much more of an equal with Lupin, they argued, and Harry was actually right. Killing Hagrid wouldn't have surved the same purpose, and Harry wouldn't have felt so guilty.

Also, since even Voldemort himself knew about Tonks and Lupin's wedding and goaded the Malforys and Bellatrix about it, I bet they would have been targeted more than the others fighting. I think it made sense that Tonks and Lupin would be killed the battle, more than some of the others, because of that hatred.

The intensity of the relationship between Harry and Hagrid has faded over the books. Not that Harry cares any less. But Lupin figures in Harry's day to day life and problems a lot more in the 6th and 7th book. When Harry found out about James and Snape his fisrt instinct was to go to Sirius and Lupin. After Sirius, Lupin is his last connection to his father. Maintaining that connection is very important to Harry.
People would be upset about Hagrid's death because he's a lovable charecter. But we know Remus more than we know Hagrid.
Also Remus' life has been very significant in the smaller plots.
Therefore Remus' death would mean a lot more to the plot.

Well after reading some more things I find that it was confirmed that Lupin and Tonks were the two who weren’t original going to die. I’m not surprised as even more it looks like their deaths were just slipped in there, not that you cant pull some significances from their deaths. But clearly Jo didn’t feel the need to kill them off original and only did so to save Arthur.

I think his and Tonks death was totally unfair.Why should they be killed when they could be at last happy?THey were married and just had a baby.
In my opinion,Remus should have lived because he was the last of the Marauders left and because I don't think he should have the same faith as James.

His death along with Tonks was rather quick... I hope we'll find out what happened eventually...

Lupin and Tonks' deaths are two that I can't get around. Their poor baby will never really know them just like Harry didn't know his parents, just what other people had to say about them. And while being in someone's memory is nice it would be better if little Teddy was able to have some memories of his own.

I knew Remus was destined to die as soon as he named Harry, Teddy's godfather. :sad:

I feel so sorry for him. He was a great character and definetly my favourite teacher. It's so unfair that he and Tonks died... poor Ted!!! He's not even going to know his parents, just like Harry. I think Rowling would had to explain more about their deads as well as Fred's, because it seems as they're dead and that's all. There's no time for them.

I was actually mildly annoyed after getting over the shock of Lupin's death ... like dobby_rocks said, it felt like it was just slipped in, as a sort of 'oh, by the way'. But there is a nice air of history repeating itself about it: Lupin and Tonks die fighting evil, their child is brought up never knowing them, but cared for by his godfather ... it seems a bit more fitting when you think about it like that :)

i think all the marauders were destined to die by the end of the war. it seems to me that they were ment be there to walk harry throught the forest.

What I want to know is who killed him and Tonks and whether one died defending the other. I was shocked by both deaths, but felt Remus's was coming. I loved seeing him return and knowing he was with James and Sirius in death.

I'm afraid to know how they died. Perhaps one distracted the other.
"Dora what are you doing here?"
SPLAT.
"Remus!!!"
SPLAT.
I really don't want to know.

Anyway, I felt that if one of them had to go, they both should. It would be too painful for one to live and the other to die. Remember the Middle Brother who lost his love?

Their deaths served a very important purpose. If you re-read those chapters you can see that it is the loss of Fred, Remus, and Tonks that gives Harry the courage to accept his fate. He loved them so much, and they died fighting for him, and he can't let their deaths be in vain, and he's the only one who can prevent this war from continuing. Their loss propels him into the forest to meet Voldemort.

And there actually IS a scene where Lupin says he hopes his son will be proud, knowing that his father died trying to make a better world for him.

Harry needed their deaths to have that courage? Where is that said? Harry didn't need their deaths... readers clearly would have accepted that he had the courage, even if Lupin had still survived.

Just give us a scene... SHOWING Lupin and Tonks dying for the cause. That's all people who know and love the characters can ask for!

This is a Scene AFTER he's already dead. Still doesn't give the readers closure on his life.

Just give us a scene... SHOWING Lupin and Tonks dying for the cause. That's all people who know and love the characters can ask for!

This is a Scene AFTER he's already dead. Still doesn't give the readers closure on his life.

I agree...A death scene for him would have made it more satisfying!

Jo was being realistic. In war, ot everyone gets a big death scene. The fighting doesn't stop just so people can be shocked. People drop, and no one notices until after the fact.


One thing to note, Remus was transformed for part of the battle. Fenrir was, so Remus must have been too. He was probably, for most of the battle, a liability to both sides.

Harry needed their deaths to have that courage? Where is that said? Harry didn't need their deaths... readers clearly would have accepted that he had the courage, even if Lupin had still survived.

Just give us a scene... SHOWING Lupin and Tonks dying for the cause. That's all people who know and love the characters can ask for!

This is a Scene AFTER he's already dead. Still doesn't give the readers closure on his life.

I totally agree with this. Harry also had seen many, many people die for the cause, Sirius, Dumbledore, Snape even, and the list goes on. He did not need Lupin and Tonks death's to spur him on. And don't tell me that Lupin would have preferred to die. If he had, he would have left Harry in Grimmauld place and gone off to do something stupid and heroic and suicidal. Instead he chose to be Lupin and choose to stick with his wife and child. What parent wouldn't want to be alive for thier child?

I will never accept thier deaths were necessary, but a death scene would help restore my faith in JKR's good writing. Right now I see thier instant deaths as an instance of breaking faith with her readers.

I was really annoyed by his death. Mostly for the fact that there was like one line dedicated to this death and that was it. Lupin deserved more.

I was really annoyed by his death. Mostly for the fact that there was like one line dedicated to this death and that was it. Lupin deserved more.

Yeah, you know, that seems to be the major complaint, and I consider it a very valid one. JKR can write what she wants, but to keep faith with her readers and keep up her good writing, we need a longer explanation for the deaths of these two MAJOR characters.

I was really surprised! I though he was the reprieved one.
I was slightly annoyed that his death was just mentioned in passing as well, but I guess it just shows how casual death can be in war (which, of course, is a really terrible thing).

I see no point in killing Remus. Maybe if Harry had had more of an involvement in Teddy's life I would see the point, but we don't even get to know that. So I'm still trying to figure out why he and Tonks had to die :no:

Remus was like one of ma favs n i got really sad when he did die... i do see it as pointless and i feel sorry for teddy having to grow up without his parents... lol but as James mentioned he was snogging and didnt seem all that worried...lol as ron said before " a little bit of snogging never hurt anyone."lol

Somehow I knew he was going to die, but it still came as such a shock to me. The fact that he and Tonks had just had Teddy made it worse, I think, as did the fact that it was like "They're dead...anyway, Harry's off to get killed now, bye."

As I wrote before I wasn't really touched by Remus' death because his character developed in a way that estranged him from me very much. In any way, I was surprised to hear that the author killed him off because she needed a father figure to die in exchange for Arthur Weasley. I didn't expect that at all and it doesn't really work for me because Remus was only a father for a few pages of the very last book and he didn't have FATHER written all over his face like Arthur. Remus' role had always been that of the unfairly discriminated dark creature with the good heart and mild manners and this last-minute push into another role was a little unlucky in my view.

I honestly expected Remus AND wormtail to die, it was probable that neither of them would fo survived as half the mauraders had died, i was just upset by the fact that we didnt get to "witness" Remus or Tonks' death and also by the fact that we dont know who would of murdered them.

Remus Lupin's death really didn't devastate me at all. I think the reason was that JKR didn't actually write his death scene (which I'm disappointed about). So somehow, I didn't really feel the loss as much as I would've if we'd actually SEEN it happen.

However, I'd known it was coming because I've been a strong believer in the "All the Marauders have to die!" theory. Still, it's a disappointment.

So she said today in chat, Dolohov killed Remus and Bella killed Tonks. That would give credence to the theory that Remus saw Tonks battling Bella and was either distracted or ran to help her and got it from Dolohov, leaving Tonks to get it from Bella. Well at least they died close by one another we assume.

I wish there had been more detail.
Even though there was only one sentence about him being dead, I bawled the most when I read that he had died.

Lupin has been one of my easy favorites since Prisoner of Azkaban, and I loved that she kept bringing him back. I always knew that he would die, and I thought it would be in this one, but it's still hard to face. I do wish we had more details about what happened with him.

Poor Loony Loopy Lupin. (Ah, Peeves.)

I feel exactly the same.

I was pretty disappointed by the lack of detail but that didn't stop me from bawling when I got to that part of the book. He's been my favourite character for so long and for him to suddenlty be dead, without a proper explanation, was shocking. I guess that, and the fact that he and Tonks died, leaving Teddy behind, was a bleak demonstration of how terrible war is, as well as how totally unfeeling and evil Voldemort and his followers were.

I feel exactly the same.

I was pretty disappointed by the lack of detail but that didn't stop me from bawling when I got to that part of the book. He's been my favourite character for so long and for him to suddenly be dead, without a proper explanation, was shocking. I guess that, and the fact that he and Tonks died, leaving Teddy behind, was a bleak demonstration of how terrible war is, as well as how totally unfeeling and evil Voldemort and his followers were.
It also completely mirrored Harry's situation, with Remus being James. It showed that the same thing could happen now and the child grow up happy.

It also completely mirrored Harry's situation, with Remus being James. It showed that the same thing could happen now and the child grow up happy.

Ditto :tu: The fact that it received such a brief mention only served to show how quick death is an how seemingly unjust. Sometimes you don't get to figure out the what's when's where's and why's, especially in a wartime setting. :sigh:

JK explains in a transcript why she killed off Lupin and Tonks. See the following link:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20001720/

So she said today in chat, Dolohov killed Remus and Bella killed Tonks. That would give credence to the theory that Remus saw Tonks battling Bella and was either distracted or ran to help her and got it from Dolohov, leaving Tonks to get it from Bella. Well at least they died close by one another we assume.

No I figure that Lupin was already dead when Tonks got there. When she asked Aberforth, where Lupin was, he said: last that he saw him, he was fighting Dolohov and that he hadn't seen him since. Lupin was probably already dead at this stage and Tonks never found him, continued battling and was killed by Bella, who grabbed her opportunity, after swearing to kill Tonks in the first chapter.

My goodness, this was what I dreaded throughout the whole book! I admit to peeking ahead to see if I could find any mention of his name. I was just so shocked when I read that he'd died, but I had a nagging feeling it might happen when his child was born - I felt like Rowling was setting it up so that he'd live on through his offspring. But though I'm sad, I'm at least comforted by the fact that he died a heroic death fighting for Harry. And I'll always be his fan!

im getting the chills right now .. honestly i thought ron, hermione og ginny would die, but Lupin .. the last marauder, died (well and Peter that two-timing snake!!!) it was the saddest moment in the entire book.. and Tonks died as well, how unfortunate for their poor son .. i had the feeling as well when his son was born, but i hope that Lupin, Sirius and James are all sitting up in heaving watching over Harry .. God! im going to cry :upset:

Rest in peace moony ..

Harry needed their deaths to have that courage? Where is that said? Harry didn't need their deaths... readers clearly would have accepted that he had the courage, even if Lupin had still survived.

[Sorry this will be long, which is why I didn't spell it all out the first time, but I guess I'd better because I don't think I got my idea across at all!]

It wasn't courage to face death that their deaths gave him. It was strength to face it without fighting. Until now, it was never in Harry's character or experience to go like a lamb to slaughter. Harry was all about resisting evil and confronting danger. Self-sacrifice has never been a problem, but aquiescence would be.

We all know Harry had courage! I'm saying these deaths gave Harry what he needed to face his FATE--giving himself up w/o a fight. Please, hear me out:

After Fred dies, Harry feels like Ron, he wants to punish the DE's. He wants to fight but Hermione persuades him they must continue to capture Horcruxes. After he returns from Snape's death at the Shrieking Shack, he is stricken to once again see Fred's body, and then reeling to see Lupin's and Tonks', as well. His immediate thought is that if he'd gone out to VM at the first demand, they would still be alive. So not only does he want revenge, he needs to expiate his guilt, so if he met VM right now he'd be going into battle against him. That's an important distinction.

Now this next part seems small but it's really huge: The sight of these three deaths--he refuses to look around to see who else has died for him--has him running away from the Great Hall, to DD's office. He runs blindly, wanting DD, hoping to talk to his portrait.

Instead he finds the Pensieve. It is there that he finally understands he was never intended to live. (Snape didn't die in vain if his death allowed Harry to look at his memories, BTW. Harry would not have accepted a living Snape saying, "Oh yeah, you have a piece of Voldy's soul, you gotta die, kid").

Now Harry understands that he must face VM without attacking and without defending himself. Naturally, he's in shock and he's terrified but he knows he'll go through with it. That's never the issue. It's how he prepares himself that makes the difference.

It's after he sees in his mind's eye once again the bodies of Fred, Remus, and Tonks that he shakes off the shock and figures out what steps he has to take (after all, the snake Horcrux remains, etc). He envisions Death's impatience. The dead feel more real to him in this moment than his still-living friends. He is doing this for all of them--so the deaths aren't in vain and so the living can remain--but he is starting to think of his living friends as though from a great distance ("a far-off country" as it says in the book). Despite the frantic beating of his heart, he is beginning to identify more with death than with life. First it says he feels "ghostly," then "as if he had already died," then he puts on the Cloak and not one person knows he's there.

A small part of him wishes the living would pull him back, prevent him from going, but he knows that cannot be. He goes, silent and invisible as if he's already dead, through the castle and across the grounds, each scene a secret goodbye, until Remus, Sirius, James, and Lily arrive to walk him through the Forest.

He doesn't just present himself to die. He first goes through stages of identifying with the dead. Then he faces death, accepting it without a struggle. It's interesting that after the loved ones promise to stay with him "until the very end," Harry drops the Stone the instant he announces his presence to VM, and they disappear. So this is the "very end" before he even dies, that is, the end of Harry as we've known him and as he knows himself. The entire series has largely been about Harry's struggles with the concept of death, and now he accepts it without resistance. Talk about a character arc!

Now do you understand what I meant? Remus and Tonks didn't die so Harry could find the courage to die. Harry's courage has never been in question.

But them lying dead was the image that propelled Harry toward the discovery that he must face Death without a fight. Without this understanding, Harry couldn't bring about the end of VM.

Could this understanding have been achieved some other way, and Tonks and Remus been spared? Probably. But this is how the author chose to accomplish it, and I get it. Those deaths were a painful shock. Of course they did something to Harry. Just look what they've done to us, still discussing it over a week later.

What astonishes me about this book is how, when all the magic and mayhem are stripped away, we discover the whole series has been about how this little orphaned boy learns to accept death.

im getting the chills right now .. honestly i thought ron, hermione og ginny would die, but Lupin .. the last marauder, died (well and Peter that two-timing snake!!!) it was the saddest moment in the entire book.. and Tonks died as well, how unfortunate for their poor son .. i had the feeling as well when his son was born, but i hope that Lupin, Sirius and James are all sitting up in heaving watching over Harry .. God! im going to cry :upset:

Rest in peace moony ..
Honestly, that's how I knew he was going to die before the book even came out. Because I knew Peter would die, he had to. And all the Marauders had to die, they had to be together. I guess I don't have any proof of this, looking back. I guess the fact that he's a Marauder isn't a reason. But for some reason, I knew that he couldn't be the last surviving member.

Now do you understand what I meant? Remus and Tonks didn't die so Harry could find the courage to die. Harry's courage has never been in question.

But them lying dead was the image that propelled Harry toward the discovery that he must face Death without a fight. Without this understanding, Harry couldn't bring about the end of VM.

Could this understanding have been achieved some other way, and Tonks and Remus been spared? Probably. But this is how the author chose to accomplish it, and I get it. Those deaths were a painful shock. Of course they did something to Harry. Just look what they've done to us, still discussing it over a week later.


All of this was very well said, and I appreciate you taking the time to write it all out.

Maybe it's a philosophical difference, but I feel that once a writer has created a character, he or she has a responsibility to let that character develop and demonstrate that full development to the end of the story. In what J.K. Rowling did with Lupin and Tonks, she does not allow the readers to see the full development and completion of the characters.

I like your theory... Lupin and Tonks' death show Harry that he must willingly lay down his life. But, in admitting that, we admit that they died to serve an ulterior motive of the author... "I need someone to die to show Harry that he needs to give up his life... ok, eenie-meenie-minie-mo, Lupin and Tonks!"

Obviously, Rowling put more thought into it than that, but I still maintain that the lack of a death scene and further explanation leaves readers saying, "What the heck? How can you just randomly destroy someone I care about without showing me why/how/where?" Sure, yeah, it's moving to us because it's characters we care about... but you have to SHOW readers why it had to be these two... how Lupin and Tonks dying was part of THEIR story, and not just a tool to help Harry in his. (I don't have a problem with Fred... it seemed pretty clear how his death was crucial to the moving forward of the story).

Sure, yeah, it's moving to us because it's characters we care about... but you have to SHOW readers why it had to be these two... how Lupin and Tonks dying was part of THEIR story, and not just a tool to help Harry in his. (I don't have a problem with Fred... it seemed pretty clear how his death was crucial to the moving forward of the story).

Ahhhh. Excellent point. I really think you're right--Lupin and Tonks needed a death scene or a broader aftermath--the conclusion of THEIR story, not the conclusion of them as part of HARRY'S story--in order for readers to accept it. That would have worked okay with lesser characters but not with ones as major as a Remus Lupin, and so people are upset.

Lupin and Tonks were important enough characters that they needed closure, and it's not enough to say, "Well, that's the randomness and anonymity of death in wartime." That might have worked okay for that girl who tried to love-potion Harry (sorry, can't think of her name) or Dedalus Diggle or a host of other characters we only met incidentally and weren't invested in, or even poor little Colin Creevey, but doing it to someone that is deeply cared about is just too much to ask of most readers.

Tonks was neat but Remus I really, really liked. Even so, I never expected him to survive. It was just so symmetrical for the last of the Marauders to die, and for the Remus/Harry/Teddy arc to bookend the James/Sirius/Harry arc. Plus I couldn't see how he would ever be easy in his life. He loved Tonks and their baby but all his lifelong issues didn't suddenly disappear; they would continue to rear up just as surely as the beast within. The prejudice, the poverty, ostracism, depression, the things Teddy would be subjected to...these would almost certainly cause strife in their household and difficulty in their relationship.

Maybe JKR wanted to spare them that. They died while they were in love and happy. They died as heroes--yes, even the werewolf will be given proper honor, I'm sure--and Teddy is spared most, maybe all, the torment of having an outcast for a father.

I think readers would be willing to accept all this if the deaths hadn't been referred to so...casually...do you agree? I mean, we do get a bit of Harry's reaction, like the world suddenly stops spinning and he can't bear to think about it, can't bear to look at them, but again, that's part of Harry's story, isn't it?

Thank you so much for putting it that way. It really makes sense.

The battle really seemed to be coming from Harry's point of view. So if Harry didn't see it, I don't think the story would have flowed as well if JKR had to cut out and say "Out here in the garden Lupin was dueling Dolohov...fight...Lupin dies." As hard as it is to believe, it was the right thing to not have Lupin die in front of Harry. Harry had lost or come close to losing every father figure before him (James, Sirius, Dumbledore, nearly lost Arthur Weasley) that another one, especially at this time would have been devastating for him and possibly want to seek revenge on the witch or wizard who killed Lupin and Tonks

The battle really seemed to be coming from Harry's point of view. So if Harry didn't see it, I don't think the story would have flowed as well if JKR had to cut out and say "Out here in the garden Lupin was dueling Dolohov...fight...Lupin dies." As hard as it is to believe, it was the right thing to not have Lupin die in front of Harry. Harry had lost or come close to losing every father figure before him (James, Sirius, Dumbledore, nearly lost Arthur Weasley) that another one, especially at this time would have been devastating for him and possibly want to seek revenge on the witch or wizard who killed Lupin and Tonks

Too true! And we already saw how he most likely would have rushed off with Ron to "kill Deatheaters" had Hermione's cooler head not prevailed.

I think JKR was probably in a tight spot, for the reasons you mention and because of what so many others are upset about, and no matter how she wrote it out there would have been unhappy readers.

Personally, I don't have a problem with how she handled Lupin/Tonks but I can see why others do.

But then, I'm so grateful to her for the wonderful experiences she has given me, I'm not inclined to reject any of her choices. The way she did it is the way it is and I'm just glad she let me into Hogwarts and Harry's world at all!

The comments about Lupin and Tonks's deaths being presented from Harry's point of view, and their impact on Harry, are something I hadn't considered and are very well stated.

However, considering comments JKR has made since the book's release, I'm more convinced that their deaths were all about Teddy and about showing kids who lose their parents that they can grow up normal and happy (Harry, after all, did neither). She's said as much about the epilogue--Teddy has a "very good-looking girlfriend" and has enjoyed the love and support of Harry and the other Order members all his life. Unlike Harry, he wasn't abandoned, abused, or forced to grow up without caring parental figures in his life.

While I personally greatly regret the death of Lupin, my favorite character, I think JKR has given a wonderful gift to the children of those who are called to dangerous professions--police, firefighters, military personnel, etc. Surely all of their families have said at one point, "I know this job has to be done, but why do you have to be the one to do it?" The answer is Remus's--to create a better world for their children. Showing Teddy happy and healthy shows that their sacrifice was not in vain.

I totally agree with you Lindmere. Having both Teddy's parents die and having Teddy still grow up happily was a good message. But despite that i am still extremely regretful that Lupin and Tonks died. I admit, i did see it coming so i was not as sad when they died, but still.

A lot of people are saying the Remus's death was pointless. They were at war and the purpose of the THIS war was to stop a maniac from ruling the wizarding world. If that is not a reason to die, what is? Remus was doing what he did in LV1; fighting for what he believed in. Tonks joined him because she loved him. They all, almost to a person, knew what they were getting into. Remus especially. Yet he went, knowing his wife and child might never see him again. Tonks went, knowing both might never go back to Teddy. Sacrifice? Yes. Pointless? I don't think so.
Harry never saw Remus as a father figure (although I had always hoped that would be), but as a teacher and someone to look up to. When he goes to the forest, I love that Remus is there. It seemed to me the 2 people he addressed personally were his mom (finally!) and Remus. It was beautiful.

While I personally greatly regret the death of Lupin, my favorite character, I think JKR has given a wonderful gift to the children of those who are called to dangerous professions--police, firefighters, military personnel, etc. Surely all of their families have said at one point, "I know this job has to be done, but why do you have to be the one to do it?" The answer is Remus's--to create a better world for their children. Showing Teddy happy and healthy shows that their sacrifice was not in vain.

Lindmere, this is such a well-reasoned remark. Thank you for this insight.

I would also like to thank everyone else who has contributed their eloquence and consideration to this discussion. It has been enlightening and even uplifting at times. I'm so glad I decided to join this forum. I'm learning a lot.

All the Marauders are together again then I guess.
I saw it coming, especially after Wormatail's death, but never thought they'd kill off Tonks aswell, straight after Teddy was born.




I would also like to express my appreciation for Lindmere's conttribution ~ very insightful.
NutmegNevis is right.

I think that it is certainly fitting that Lupin died. When Sirius died, I knew that all of the Marauders would have to die in the end, and each of their deaths due to Voldemort. Therefore, when Pettigrew died, I knew that it was only a matter of time before Lupin did the same. Also, his death was somewhat foreshadowed by the birth of Teddy. Although it was about time Lupin got some love and respect in his life, I knew that JKR would have to kill off Teddy's parents. This would show, after Voldemort was defeated, how the effect that Voldemort had on the world (in particular, on families) still lingered after his death. Thus, Lupin and Tonks's death was understandable.

I, for one, am sad that Lupin had to die before he had love again in his life, but I think that he would only regret not being with his child. Other than that, he is probably the happiest he has been since his school days with the Marauders and Tonks.

Yup, plus he seems happy enough in the afterlife.

I must admit his death came as a shock to me, without reading this thread, i never thought of the birth of Teddy as a foreshadow to death:whistle: I think it was only when I got to the part of Trelawny throwing crystal balls that I remembered Lupin's Boggart and got worried for him:no:

Yes Remus' death is largely pointless, but does it, and many of the other deaths, simply not underline the pointless brutality of war?

In that case is any death pointless? I mean DD died before the full out break of war.

In terms of the deaths in the books, Lupin and Tonks walked the finest line. Their fates, ultimately risked overshadowing the fact that Harry lived: given their adorable baby and Lupin finally accepting love and the general coolness of bubbly Tonks.

However thematically it did play a very important role. It left Teddy: a foil for both Harry and Neville. He had similar circumstances, to them both, but grew up to be: cool, loved and secure. Thereby indicating the changing, better world, that his parents and many others gave their life's for.

I really thought I would cry my eyes out in case Remus died but I was displeased with how his character developed in Deathly Hallows and I must say that his death did not touch me. At the point of his death I did not really care for him any more.


I could not have said it better.

I really thought Lupin had been the character to get the reprieve. (Come to find out Arthur got the reprieve and because he got the reprieve Lupin and Tonks had to die!)

I thought he would get live, showing that even the outcast can find a home. I loved Lupin, and I loved Lupin with Tonks. I thought that if he died or she died I would weep like a willow. Lupin was one of my top three favorite characters after all. But I didn't even tear up when we saw his body.

In fact both Lupin and Tonks felt very flat to me this book. And to have their deaths off page, just added to that flatness. I remember thinking something along the lines of "well that sucks for Andromeda, and little Teddy". But that was the exent of it.

In my mind Deathy Hallows showed a lot of Jo's strengths as an author; but also her weaknesses. I felt like she used Lupin as a plot device, more then a character and that did not do her justice as a writer. But all is well that ends well. Even if he didn't end on the highest note I enjoyed Lupin's journey through the series.

In fact both Lupin and Tonks felt very flat to me this book. And to have their deaths off page, just added to that flatness.

I never really cared much for Tonks but I hated how JK treated Lupin in this book; he got married (very quickly) to Tonks, they had a child and then they died!

wOOt! That was so unrealistic and unbelivable garbage... Then again their relationship never made much sense anyway.

It would've been better had Tonks been killed by Fenrir Greyback, then have Lupin kill him in feral form and then have to raise Teddy alone. It would've given closure to all three characters, and would've been much better. :cool:

I was surprised when I read the book that Lupin was killed with little explanation. After seeing some of JK's notes about the battle and why she chose Lupin, I'm a bit more placated. In a way I feel better knowing that Lupin died battling Dolohov (and Tonks battling Bella). Both seem realistic, or a bit more realistic.
Lupin's behavior through the book did seem erratic; but I guess the difficulty of being a complete persona non grata in the wizarding world came through. The truly "plot-devicish" moment for me was when Harry dressed Lupin down for abandoning Tonks - that was more for Harry growing up and being a true independant thinking man than it was for Lupin, IMO.
Some might think his death was a plot device; but IMO it was more reflective of the cold reality of war. In war people die out of sight of others, and casualties may be found after the main part of the battle is over.

JKR didn't write the argument well between Harry and Lupin and many missed the point entirely. It was to show many things. How affected Lupin was by wizard society and how much the thought of his wife and child having to deal with that throughout their lives daunted him. Equally importantly it was showing the progress of Harry and Lupin's relationship, how both felt close enough to do and say certain things to one another (note Harry now calls him Remus).

Lupin is later shown to come to grips with his situation which we would have speculated about if she had not raised the issue in the book. Later Harry repeated Lupin's counsel several times in the book to show that he held Lupin in high regard. And Lupin during the broadcast and in making him godfather showed the regard was returned - and Harry's thoughts about Lupin after the argument and during the broadcast as well as his accepting the role of godfather sealed that.

All of this made it much more understandable why Harry might call upon Lupin with Sirius and his parents in the end as being one of the people that he treasured in life and wanted there to help him face death. Otherwise everyone would be asking, why was Lupin there and not Fred or Dobby, etc.

JKR wasn't so clear on this in her writing, but if you take a moment and consider, it all becomes pretty clear.

i rather lupin lived he was one of my favorite characters!! that was a bleak moment when harry saw him and tonks laying next to fred....

So sad! My favorite character. And I cant beleive little Teddy was orphaned.

Yes, it was very sad to see Lupin die. I wish we could have seen it happen, it had to take no less then 10 DE to bring him done.

JKR didn't write the argument well between Harry and Lupin and many missed the point entirely. It was to show many things. How affected Lupin was by wizard society and how much the thought of his wife and child having to deal with that throughout their lives daunted him. Equally importantly it was showing the progress of Harry and Lupin's relationship, how both felt close enough to do and say certain things to one another.

Lupin is later shown to come to grips with his situation which we would have speculated about if she had not raised the issue in the book. Later Harry repeated Lupin's counsel several times in the book to show that he held Lupin in high regard. And Lupin during the broadcast and in making him godfather showed the regard was returned - and Harry's thoughts about Lupin after the argument and during the broadcast as well as his accepting the role of godfather sealed that.

All of this made it much more understandable why Harry might call upon Lupin with Sirius and his parents in the end as being one of the people that he treasured in life and wanted there to help him face death. Otherwise everyone would be asking, why was Lupin there and not Fred or Dobby, etc.

JKR wasn't so clear on this in her writing, but if you take a moment and consider, it all becomes pretty clear.

Wickedwickedboy, I really enjoy your posts! You find the grit in an argument and turn it into a pearl of wisdom.

wicked, i'm not sure if I agree with the idea that JKR didn't write the agrument well. She wrote it from the perspective of Harry, since it's all from Harry's point of view. Harry was still young (although growing up really fast!) and was thinking of things from his past. I do agree with you points about the gist of the argument and what you can see if you look at it.
Even after the fight, Harry is regretting it and hopes that it will make Remus go back to Tonks, and it did.
Harry is all about family, since he didn't have one. Here he sees someone he admires getting ready to throw it all away, albeit for a noble cause. Harry can't justify that and forces Remus to see things from a different perspective. It worked. Till the end, anyway.

wicked, i'm not sure if I agree with the idea that JKR didn't write the agrument well. She wrote it from the perspective of Harry, since it's all from Harry's point of view. Harry was still young (although growing up really fast!) and was thinking of things from his past. I do agree with you points about the gist of the argument and what you can see if you look at it.
Even after the fight, Harry is regretting it and hopes that it will make Remus go back to Tonks, and it did.
Harry is all about family, since he didn't have one. Here he sees someone he admires getting ready to throw it all away, albeit for a noble cause. Harry can't justify that and forces Remus to see things from a different perspective. It worked. Till the end, anyway.

I wasn't knocking JKR, I should have stated that more clearly. She often writes in too vague a manner for people to connect the dots of her writing. You brilliantly saw what she was doing, but I have seen several post where people either didn't understand what was going on or were suddenly disappointed in Remus after his discussion w/ Harry - not understanding that he was a bit out of character and why that might be. So that is why I made that point. But you didn't need to hear it, you already knew! What you stated is exactly what I meant.

On another note, the Harry-Lupin discussion scene we also hear Remus tell how hotly he was being pursued by the DE's - he traveled 3 days to shake one from his tail. That would let us know that at the Battle of Hogwarts he would be highly pursued as a target. He likely had to face numerous DE's specifically wanting to kill him to please Voldemort (you recall Voldy in chapter 1 making him a high target). Remus was defeated by Dolohov in the end, we don't know the details, but when know Bella was busy taking out Tonks as well (this from an interview w/ JKR). Whether one had an effect on the other is left up to our imaginations. And of course there were tons of students around and both were likely distracted by due to their desire to protect them. Between all the possible distractions, the tireless and constant battling both would have to face from eager DE's, it is not surprising that they would eventually be defeated. We know Remus had awesome talent, conjuring, defenses against dark magic, etc. But battle weary, having just had a baby (up nights), distractions and plain luck on the part of a couple of DE's could still see their downfall occur. However the deaths occurred, their valiance is assured because they were fighting for the good side and risking their lives to make the world a better and happier place for their son, everyone they loved and all wizards (even those who had shunned them). They were two of many heroes in the book in my eyes.

ps. If the above was a tad depressing think of this: Remus ended up young, healthy and happy - finally! - and with his best friends in the after-wizard world. JKR told us this at the reunion scene. And he also was with his love and lily as well. Now they just had to find a mate for Sirius! (Although he'd likely be hard to tame, and rather date all the single witches that arrived!)

Thanks Nutmeg, I've seen a few gems of yours here and there as well. :)

i am still very sad over this he and tonks were so shockingly revealed dead by harry simply glancing passed poor fred ...itwas quite disturbing i am so mad i loved lupin he was one of my afav characters!! especially after david thewlis played him!!

The Harry/Lupin scene in Grimmauld Place also served to illustrate, yet again and for the last time, that while Lupin was an immensely brave and admirable character, he lacked everyday courage. His wife had both. We saw this in POA and HBP as well. In the end he overcame this and proved to be a courageous person in all respects, and he enjoyed the remainder of his life with Tonks and their baby. All part of the overall theme of transcending insecurity and accepting life, as it is dealt

when i found out that bellatrix killed tonks, i was slightly annoyed. but i always guessed it was dolohov who killed lupin, because he is the one that lupin if fighting when tonks goes to fight at his side. :(

No I figure that Lupin was already dead when Tonks got there. When she asked Aberforth, where Lupin was, he said: last that he saw him, he was fighting Dolohov and that he hadn't seen him since. Lupin was probably already dead at this stage and Tonks never found him, continued battling and was killed by Bella, who grabbed her opportunity, after swearing to kill Tonks in the first chapter.

That's a good theory, I agree with you on that. :tu:
I just wish a scene like this had been included in the book although it would have been devastating to read.

I predicted after Sirius died that all the Marauders were going to die. At the time half of them were gone and well it just fight. I had hoped I was wrong because I liked Lupin but I was not shocked.

At the end of the book when Tonks and Lupins son is "snogging" it gave the imprestion that he did not live with Harry if God father... i found tht very odd. Maby his grandma raised him?

At the end of the book when Tonks and Lupins son is "snogging" it gave the imprestion that he did not live with Harry if God father... i found tht very odd. Maby his grandma raised him?

Yeah JKR said that Andromeda raised Teddy. It seemed to me, that in the book, Tonks and Lupin had already decided this, in the event that anything should happen to them. JKR also said that he was unlike Harry, in respect of the fact that he spends a lot of time with Harry and his parent’s friends in the order and was well loved and secure.

Yeah JKR said that Andromeda raised Teddy. It seemed to me, that in the book, Tonks and Lupin had already decided this, in the event that anything should happen to them. JKR also said that he was unlike Harry, in respect of the fact that he spends a lot if time with Harry and his parent’s friends in the order and was well loved and secure.


Can you give me a link to the interview or something where she says this about Teddy? Thanks

Can you give me a link to the interview or something where she says this about Teddy? Thanks

The dateline interview and from her online chat on Monday. Thay can all be found on any good website (Leaky, mugglenet etc.)

At the end of the book when Tonks and Lupins son is "snogging" it gave the imprestion that he did not live with Harry if God father... i found tht very odd. Maby his grandma raised him?
It's not terribly weird, if you think about it. Harry was 17, unmarried, and unemployed. Plus, we know through Harry that Teddy spent A LOT of time at the Potters' house anyway.

The Harry/Lupin scene in Grimmauld Place also served to illustrate, yet again and for the last time, that while Lupin was an immensely brave and admirable character, he lacked everyday courage. His wife had both. We saw this in POA and HBP as well. In the end he overcame this and proved to be a courageous person in all respects, and he enjoyed the remainder of his life with Tonks and their baby. All part of the overall theme of transcending insecurity and accepting life, as it is dealt


I don't think Remus lacked everyday courage.He was doing what he thought was right,and if it had been it would have been bravery.Unfortunatly his was the wrong decision,though you can't blame him for the way he looked at it.Remus isolates himself not for himself but for others.Some may see his as cowardice,that he doesn't dare to get close,but his motivations are not selfish.To me Remus is brave,in many ways.

I absolutely hated Lupin's death, and felt it was unnecessary.

First of all, is JKR trying to mess Harry up for life? He's not only lost his parents and his godfather, but now he lost the last person tied closely to his parents. Lupin was the last thing that tied Harry to his parents in a concrete sense, that he could learn about his parents and ask questions about them because of Lupin.

Secondly, how cruel is it to Lupin? He just had a child! He found love, got married, had a child, and overcame his own inner demons to accept what that meant! He finally was beginning to be okay with himself and what he was, enough to try and live a normal life anyway. But the second he was okay with it, JKR didn't give him the chance to live with his new acceptance of himself. It seemed so unnecessarily cruel.

And finally, the death was so glossed over. There was no funeral, no immense feeling of injustice or sadness on Harry's part (Lupin was one of his dad's best friends!), just the realization that he was dead. It just didn't give the man justice, considering how much he helped Harry in the third year. Without him, Harry would have never learned the Patronus charm, which has saved his life multiple times!

Lupin was probably my favorite character as the series wore on, and I just hated seeing him die.
I agree, I could easily blot out their deaths with a couple penstrokes on my book and am very tempted to do so...It was pointless, they don't get a death scene, she just throws it in like - oh, they're dead too. She should have done that with more minor characters like Seamus or Pavati, not Tonks & Lupin. So, I'm currently in denial. They aren't dead in my mind. :whistle:. If JKR wanted me to accept their deaths she should put more detail into it.

Can you give me a link to the interview or something where she says this about Teddy? Thanks Tineke: Did teddy grow up living with his grandmother?

J.K. Rowling: Yes, Teddy was raised by Andromeda.

J.K. Rowling: However, unlike Neville, who was also raised by his grandmother

J.K. Rowling: Teddy had his godfather, Harry, and all his father's friends in the Order, to visit and stay with.

I don't think Remus lacked everyday courage.He was doing what he thought was right,and if it had been it would have been bravery.Unfortunatly his was the wrong decision,though you can't blame him for the way he looked at it.Remus isolates himself not for himself but for others.Some may see his as cowardice,that he doesn't dare to get close,but his motivations are not selfish.To me Remus is brave,in many ways.

He was incredibly brave, but he did, as a result of the prejudice related to being a werewolf, lack courage in everyday matters: he never told off to the rest of the Marauder’s as a boy, he still didn't tell Dumbledore about Sirius being an animagus in POA, for fear Dumbledore would see him in a bad light, he left his job to avoid a fuss and on and on. It is perfectly understandable given his life; he was an immensely brave human being, but this was a failing and he did overcome it in the end. Teddy's parents died a heroic death and I am sure in the novel that he was proud of them, as he should be they were great people.

When I read the part when Lupin died I was shocked. I was even more shocked when Tonk's body was with him to. Then I was thinking: Who killed them? I was really mad that I never found out. RIP Lupin and Tonks.

Oh I would not say Remus was not brave in his everyday life. He served as a spy for DD among werewolves who were siding with Voldy and under Greyback; he fought in the first war against Voldy; he worked with the Order doing all types of other things, only some of which we saw.

His one problem was that he was shunned and outcast by the society he wanted to be a part of. People treated him bad and wouldn't give him a job. Every instance of his not being "brave" arose from that problem. He didn't want that for his family...I can totally understand that. So he thought to try to save them from it. Harry and time served to kick him back into character and he realized that being there for his family was important and MORE he wanted to be there (happy dad announcing birth).

But the take home from that isn't Lupin's dealing with his problem. JKR wrote Lupin in to show how prejudices in society for those with diseases, etc. is wrong. Sure, Lupin dealt with it from his side; but if society hadn't shunned him, he wouldn't have had to deal with it. That is the lesson - if a person had leprosy 1 time a month, but was fine the rest of the time, people would treat them the same way in our society. We leave the leper to deal with it while we shun them away and it is just wrong.

I don't see it as a flaw in his life, I see it as a man dealing with and overcoming a very real, very tragic and very serious problem - and He did it - while most wouldn't be able to (especially in real life). But Lupin was brave, we knew he'd do it. I was just glad he ended up young, happy and healthy in the after-life :)

But Lupin was brave, we knew he'd do it. I was just glad he ended up young, happy and healthy in the after-life :)

I wish I could see it like that.Personally I would have liked to have seen him have a full life then meet up with the marauders.:(

Oh I would not say Remus was not brave in his everyday life. He served as a spy for DD among werewolves who were siding with Voldy and under Greyback; he fought in the first war against Voldy; he worked with the Order doing all types of other things, only some of which we saw.

How has that got anything to do with everyday matters? He was brave and courageous and brilliant in these matters, but because of the immense prejudice he faced, he had a lot of fears relating to being able or even 'allowed' to have a normal life. It was an absence of nerve and a fear of censor, which meant he did not tell Dumbledore about Sirius being Padfoot in POA; he admitted this himself. He overcame this fear by the end of the series, and allowed himself to enjoy being a husband and father.

All of the characters in HP were flawed; every human being is flawed. I loved Lupin, and many other characters, but he wasn't a saint and neither were any of the characters. They were all, with the exception of a view, varying shapes of grey.

I do wonder whether Lupin was chosen to die as much for completing the marauders plus one that helped Harry be able to face his death in the forest as he was chosen as a "substitute" for Arthur.
The second read through, for me, made me understand Lupin's death a bit more. Harry actually did have warning that Lupin may have died - Aberforth mentioned he was dueling Dolohov, and made it sound like that was a bit ago - so there was more warning than just seeing his dead body in the Hall.
I think that, under most circumstances, Lupin did display bravery. He just lost his head a bit when he was thinking about what kind of situation he was bringing a son or daughter into, and Harry set him straight in no uncertain words.

Well the marauders (not Wormtail) ought to be re-united, I don't mind his death much, he seemed unhappy in the beginning, at least by the time he died he had discovered happiness in his family! Just feel bad for teddy though the way things went in Epilogue, he seemed content :evil:

I just wish a scene like this had been included in the book although it would have been devastating to read.

Yeah, but for a character as huge as Lupin I wanted to know and see how he fell ... I felt cheated actually. Tonks too but she hadn't left her impression over the entire series the way Lupin had. I mean the bird's death (The owl was sad, but this did not make deep hurt it seems some felt) got a whole page to its demise but we just end up without any information on Lupin's death. Thank goodness she at least told us who killed who.

How could Lupin not kill Fenrir, nor Wormtail kill a werewolf with his silver hand!!!! :grumble:

How could Lupin not kill Fenrir, nor Wormtail kill a werewolf with his silver hand!!!! :grumble:

The silver hand thing came from legend: as in a silver bullet is the only thing that can kill a werewolf. It had nothing to do with JKR's story, or her theory on werewolves. I agree though, Greyback should have died, in an, to achieve justice kind of way. However he didn't, and life isn't fair, which was probably the point of letting him live, while Lupin died.

What I want to know is who killed him and Tonks and whether one died defending the other. I was shocked by both deaths, but felt Remus's was coming. I loved seeing him return and knowing he was with James and Sirius in death.


That's what I would like to know also. There are alot of things that JK left up to our imaginations. Maybe she will be able to figure out a way answer some of these questions in the movie.

That's what I would like to know also. There are alot of things that JK left up to our imaginations. Maybe she will be able to figure out a way answer some of these questions in the movie.

In her chat, JK revealed that Dolohov did kill Remus, and Bella killed Tonks. I don't know if she said both were at same time or whether Tonks was killed later (which I think is the case - I think Remus was dead before Tonks even left the RoR, based on Aberforth's statements).

i think JKR couldnt just keep it a pretty picture and some people had to die. i reckon that as Lupin was one of the big characters but dispensible he was killed off. It couldnt all be a fairy tale ending.

I think she wanted to give Remus a happy ending on a personal level. She made a point to indicate that he looked younger, healthier and happy in the reunion scene. Like everyone else, he had to deal with loss (couldn't watch his son grow), but he was much happier personally as he no longer had to deal with being shunned or an outcast - nor did his wife.

I would like to know why JKR didn't detail his death. He was a big enough character to warrant it (at least as big as Moody). I don't know if because she always claimed she liked the character it was hard for her to write; or if she wanted to leave it up to our imaginations or what.

I would like to know why JKR didn't detail his death. He was a big enough character to warrant it (at least as big as Moody). I don't know if because she always claimed she liked the character it was hard for her to write; or if she wanted to leave it up to our imaginations or what.


My only guess is that she didn't detail it because she could only pick one of Remus and Fred to detail. She was telling the story from Harry's POV, and it would have been hard to make it believable to show both Fred and Lupin dying under Harry's watchful eyes.

I thought the opposite.. I just couldn't believe that now Remus was finally happy, giving Harry the honour of being Teddy's godfather in his good mood, he would be killed of..
Though, after Tonks went after him I did have a bad felling about it..

I didn't think about it...but I really HATED how Lupin finally was happy, and then she killed him. Poor lupin seems to have sad throughout the whole series; always fighting Voldmort or facing discrimination for being a werewolf. Then we see how estatic he is when he has Teddy, and then he dies. :upset:I didn't think his death was necessary.

Lupin was my favorite carictor. i cried when i found out he died then stormed around the room yelling at JKR.
I think JKR left Teddy an orphan because it brings the story full circle. He is an orphan like harry but loved by many people. He's like what harry could have been in a good home.

I would like to know why JKR didn't detail his death. He was a big enough character to warrant it (at least as big as Moody). I don't know if because she always claimed she liked the character it was hard for her to write; or if she wanted to leave it up to our imaginations or what.

I'm almost glad she didn't ,that one line was the hardest in the book for me to read.I don't think I could have read anymore.

Well, at least the image of Remus looking young and happy and being with his best friends James and Sirius and with Lily makes me happy.

because he is happy and reunited with the loved ones and because he was important enough for Harry to call for him at the darkest hour, when he needed his loved ones more then ever!

I didn't like what Jk did with his character in DH at all. I thought his role was more important. That him being wise and patient and strong and brave and a guidance figure will play a role, that him being a werewolf and being a talented wizard will play a role, but in the end, the only role he played was father to teddy for a little while and husband to Tonks. I wanted to see the POA Remus more.

But I guess JK did the same thing with Snape as well. I thought Snape was going to play a bigger role, there were so many not-ended threads for Snape (as there were for Remus) that I thought we were goint to see him more. In the end he died silently, just like Remus, killed by Voldemort, not in battle, with no final confrontation with Harry or somebody else.

I'm almost glad she didn't ,that one line was the hardest in the book for me to read.I don't think I could have read anymore.

I am with you 100%. That line was perfect for me. I wish she wouldn't talk about it either. I didn't want to know who did the killing, I just wanted to say "he died valiantly" in my mind. I probably won't read anymore of her interviews in case she devulges more info.

Well GottaloveLupin, take heart, unlike Snape, at least Remus died in battle!

I am with you 100%. That line was perfect for me. I wish she wouldn't talk about it either. I didn't want to know who did the killing, I just wanted to say "he died valiantly" in my mind. I probably won't read anymore of her interviews in case she devulges more info.

Well GottaloveLupin, take heart, unlike Snape, at least Remus died in battle!


I know, I was not refering at this, I was referring at the fact that we do not get to see an heroic battle where Remus takes lots of enemies and than he is killed.

And we didn't get to see a scene where heroically Snape saves Harry's live, dieing in battle for him, or something of the sorts (personally i am glad, because I really hate Snape's character, although I felt sorry for him at the end).

remus went silently because we do not get to witness anything. Snaoe because of how he dies. Neither chacter moves very much within what we knew of them and does not do what we expected them to do.

In Remus's case I am a little dissapointed, but I guess I have to be happy because we do get to see some scenes where he provides support for Harry and some sort of guidance and Harry does seem to be fond of him, despite the fact that he confronts Remus in that totally unpleasent scene at Gromauld Place. And the fact that hermione and Ron were so upset with Harry for the way Harry treated Remus provides also some comfort because it shows how much Hermione and Ron cared about Remus, as well.

I know, I was not refering at this, I was referring at the fact that we do not get to see an heroic battle where Remus takes lots of enemies and than he is killed.

And we didn't get to see a scene where heroically Snape saves Harry's live, dieing in battle for him, or something of the sorts (personally i am glad, because I really hate Snape's character, although I felt sorry for him at the end).

remus went silently because we do not get to witness anything. Snaoe because of how he dies. Neither chacter moves very much within what we knew of them and does not do what we expected them to do.

In Remus's case I am a little dissapointed, but I guess I have to be happy because we do get to see some scenes where he provides support for Harry and some sort of guidance and Harry does seem to be fond of him, despite the fact that he confronts Remus in that totally unpleasent scene at Gromauld Place. And the fact that hermione and Ron were so upset with Harry for the way Harry treated Remus provides also some comfort because it shows how much Hermione and Ron cared about Remus, as well.

Yes...in fact I think that was the point of those scenes, beyond showing that Remus had a problem that got resolved later. It also showed a development in Harry and Remus' relationship. It was closer. Most of Remus' scenes with Harry showed this which helped explain why he was called back as part of the family that Harry wanted to escort him to death in the reuion scene, those treasured people who had died - when Harry thought he was a goner.

Well, i was really quite fond of Lupin... i was hoping it wouldn't happen but since it did, i'm actually quite glad i didn't have to 'see' him die. Like someone said, that one line really was enough for me too. I think another sirius/dumbledore style death of one of my favourite characters would've just crushed me.

I think it was enough to know he died bravely. :sad:. I think i winced a little when she told us who killed him. It wasn't closure for me, it was re-opening the wound!

But on the up side he's with his friends and he was happy... :upset:

In her chat, JK revealed that Dolohov did kill Remus, and Bella killed Tonks. I don't know if she said both were at same time or whether Tonks was killed later (which I think is the case - I think Remus was dead before Tonks even left the RoR, based on Aberforth's statements).


Do you have a link to this chat? The last few I read did not mention this.

I had been fearing for poor Lupin since Sirius died. The Marauders weren't untouchable, they were mortal (and how mortal)! But I really hoped JKR spared him in the end, my favourite character all through the series, but I'm a bit of a jinx: my favourite characters always die. Really, reading that line, seeing him dead, there, beside Tonks... Oh, heavens! It was just too unfair. I had begun to tremble when I read that Dolohov (that had been duelling him) was duelling someone else. If there's a character that deserves surviving is kind-amiable-wonderful Remus Lupin.

By the way, I also expected he was more developed through the book. His scenes are wonderful, but I think we needed to see more of him.

(Sigh). Well, let's mourn our favourite werewolf ever and think that, wherever he is, he is with Tonks, and happy and free at last. Poor comfort for us, true, but life's hard and unfair (but really, killing him...)

I personally feel that Lupin should have at least had a death scene. Obviously the thought of somebody else falling in front of Harry was overkill, but a description or at least a guilty party would have made it less matter-of-fact. I know people talk about casualties in war and such, but they are never matter-of-fact in nature and that was the impression I got with how this particular character's passing was handled.

I personally feel that Lupin should have at least had a death scene. Obviously the thought of somebody else falling in front of Harry was overkill, but a description or at least a guilty party would have made it less matter-of-fact. I know people talk about casualties in war and such, but they are never matter-of-fact in nature and that was the impression I got with how this particular character's passing was handled.The problem was that Harry couldn't be there, Harry had too much to do, and he couldn't stop and grieve over another death. We are clued in that Lupin is in danger when we are told he is fighting Dolohov, who ultimately is the one to kill him, and Tonks runs off to find him, I think what we saw for the time and story we had was good. We knew Tonks and Lupin loved each other, and we got all that I think we could get. Although I was sad about their deaths, I can see why they died, and I can deal with how they died.

Do you have a link to this chat? The last few I read did not mention this.

Apologies for not looking this up earlier:
http://www.mugglenet.com/app/news/full_story/1156

Here's the relevant part:
Casey Kunze: Who killed remus and tonks I think if I knew this, I would get some closure over the very sad, but understandable, death of two of my favorite characters
J.K. Rowling: I'm so sorry! I met a couple on launch night who had come dressed as Lupin and Tonks, and I felt dreadfully guilty as I signed their books!
J.K. Rowling: Remus was killed by Dolohov and Tonks by Bellatrix.

I don't feel like reading 19 pages of replies, so disregard this if it's already been deduced.

I really can't believe people are questioning who killed Lupin and Tonks. Who does Aberforth tell Tonks he saw Remus dueling (page 626 in the American version)? Then who do we see Dean dueling with on 644? Dolohov. Before I even picked up DH, I knew Remus was going to die. Something inside me said so. Then I knew Remus (and Tonks, most likely) was actually dead when I read about Dean dueling with Dolohov. Didn't anyone else pick this up?

EDIT:
Ok, so someone figured it out with the help of JKR. I'm glad we're all such comprehensive readers! :-P


I just looked at my previous post records, and this is my first post in almost four years... weird being back here.

Lupin was my favorite carictor. i cried when i found out he died then stormed around the room yelling at JKR.
I think JKR left Teddy an orphan because it brings the story full circle. He is an orphan like harry but loved by many people. He's like what harry could have been in a good home.


Lupin was also one of my favorite characters, and I was so sad when I read those lines.

But I disagree with you here. There was no need to kill Lupin.
The whole story is about circles : Grindelvald and the coming back Voldy circle, the resurrecting Voledmort circle, the whole story is about heirs, heirs of griffondor, heirs of slytherin, heirs of the black family.
But the end of DH shows us that those circles are fnally broken : no more painful scar, no more bad guys.
I think Lupin and Tonks's survival would have been the evidence Harry's fight wasn't vain and the circle broken.

EDIT:
Ok, so someone figured it out with the help of JKR. I'm glad we're all such comprehensive readers! :-P


I just looked at my previous post records, and this is my first post in almost four years... weird being back here.


Welcome back :). And, in that same chat, it was revealed Bella killed Tonks, which had less foreshadowing in the books. It did take a reread for me to catch that Dolohov was hinted at having killed Lupin.

Welcome back :). And, in that same chat, it was revealed Bella killed Tonks, which had less foreshadowing in the books. It did take a reread for me to catch that Dolohov was hinted at having killed Lupin.

We are told in the very first chapter that Bella wanted Tonks dead and again after they left Privet Drive Tonks tells Lupin that: 'Bella really tried to kill me'.

I read the first chapter and knew they were going to die, at least they had Teddy and left a part of themselves behind.

I had always hoped that Lupin wouldn't die. He was such a good character and taught Harry so many things in PoA. I'm gladthat he died with his wife, and is now with his best friends, but poor Teddy.

I thought that Lupin wold die as soon as he made Harry godfather. It was as though Tonks and Lupin were Lily and James, and Harry was Sirius. That was some foreshadowing I think.

When I came across the mention of Lupin's death, I thought I had overlooked his death scene. Glad I didn't.

Anyway, I think Lupin was a good charecter for JK to kill. Don't get me wrong; I liked Lupin, but he was better than, say, Luna, or Mr. Weasley. People had to die, and Lupin was one of the ones that it was easier to kill off, I believe.

When I came across the mention of Lupin's death, I thought I had overlooked his death scene. Glad I didn't.

Anyway, I think Lupin was a good charecter for JK to kill. Don't get me wrong; I liked Lupin, but he was better than, say, Luna, or Mr. Weasley. People had to die, and Lupin was one of the ones that it was easier to kill off, I believe.

He actually was a substitute for Mr Weasley, who JK couldn't bear to kill off. I think it was the Dateline interview where she revealed that (or a combo of dateline and the web chat).

I thought only a certain something could kill werewolves.. like silver or something?

I thought only a certain something could kill werewolves.. like silver or something?

That's the classic myth. Jo normally sticks to them, so we can assume it's true with werewolves in HP world, but she's never specifically addressed this. At least, not in the books.

I don't think silver was needed to kill Lupin... obvs - he's dead! ;)

I was surprised at how sad Lupin and Tonk's deaths made me feel, I'd never really been fans of either of them but once I thought about how the Marauders were together again in death I found it kind of poetic, like a very fitting 'the end' on their powerful friendship. Even Wormtail might find their forgiveness in the beyond, who knows. :)

In her chat, JK revealed that Dolohov did kill Remus, and Bella killed Tonks. I don't know if she said both were at same time or whether Tonks was killed later (which I think is the case - I think Remus was dead before Tonks even left the RoR, based on Aberforth's statements).

Oh ok. I didn't get to see the chat. Wish I had. I agree. I think Remus was already dead when she left the room. It's too bad that JK went this way although I can't say that I was really surprised.

Oh ok. I didn't get to see the chat. Wish I had. I agree. I think Remus was already dead when she left the room. It's too bad that JK went this way although I can't say that I was really surprised.

I agree that Remus was already dead prior to Tonks going to find him. Because of our POV, we didn't get to see Lupin or Tonks die - it wouldn't have made sense for Harry to be out on the grounds when he was supposed to be searching within the school.

Each time I turned a page of Deathly Hallows I was afraid that it would bring tidings of poor Lupin's death. And then, there it was, in black and white. And yet I almost completely overlooked it. I really think that if she had to kill them, he and Tonks should have gotten a proper death/battle scene since they were an accomplished witch and wizard. But, I think that Remus' death was completely unecessary, as I have said on other threads here, and that he should have been allowed to see his son grow up. Poor Teddy! No parents at all! She could have left one of them alive!!

And, I must agree with chparadise, I think Remus was already dead when Tonks went running to find him. Even if I do wish that they died together. That's what happened in my head. :)

In the chat with JkR, here (http://www.mugglenet.com/app/news/full_story/1156) she had said Remus was killed by Dolohov.

Reading back through the book, in Chapter 5 (Fallen Warrior), Lupin, (upon hearing Harry used a Disarming spell on Stan Shunpike), was apalled and said, "Harry, the time for the Disarming spell is past. These people are trying to capture and kill you."


Then, in Chapter 9 (A Place To Hide), Harry is face to face with Dolohov in the Muggle cafe. Harry uses "Stupefy", Hermione "Petrificus Totalus" and then they discuss what to do with them. They have an opportunity to kill them. But they decide to wipe their memories with a Memory charm ("Obliviate") instead.


Reading through the chat with JKR, I was sad to hear Lupin was murdered by Dolohov. After what he had said to Harry, and what Harry had done, (or not done), Lupin was killed.

Ultimately, Harry's mercy and compassion for the Death Eaters cost Lupin his life. It cost Teddy a chance to have his father raise him.

I wasn't really all that surprised...and it was just after he went back to Tonks and had his child too. That was sad. He was never really one of my favorite characters, but I thought it was cool that he was one of the good werewolves (not like Fenrir) and he was pretty good at teaching Defense Against the Dark Arts. He was the first teacher since Harry's been there that actually knew what he was doing, and probably the only one too (unless you want to count Barty Crouch Jr, or Snape.. one for sure was evil!). So Remus Lupin may not have been my most favorite character, but he always had my respect, though I did find myself irritated when he left Tonks and his son... that tried my patiance. But he went back and all was better again.

He actually was a substitute for Mr Weasley, who JK couldn't bear to kill off. I think it was the Dateline interview where she revealed that (or a combo of dateline and the web chat).

I can understand her not wanting to kill Mr.Weasley(how tragic would that be),but it bothers me that Lupin was a substitute death.He really didn't need to die.

I can understand her not wanting to kill Mr.Weasley(how tragic would that be),but it bothers me that Lupin was a substitute death.He really didn't need to die.

I don't know about that. Maybe she intended to kill him in the end all along. What bothers me is that he died as a substitute father figure and that's something that Remus just doesn't embody. It was not his role and everything that leads to his death seems to be oddly constructed.

I don't know about that. Maybe she intended to kill him in the end all along. What bothers me is that he died as a substitute father figure and that's something that Remus just doesn't embody. It was not his role and everything that leads to his death seems to be oddly constructed.

Kill him all along,I dunno,I never believed he'd die.Yeah he doesn't fit the substitute father bit either.
As for 'everything that leads to his death',I think I'm one of the only people that believe that Remus didn't really love Tonks,that he just finally went along with what everyone thought he should do.
Either way,I agree with the poorly 'constructed comment'.

Hi. I think a Killing Curse killed them both. I think they might have been defending both of themselves when the curse hit them both killing them.

Hi. I think a Killing Curse killed them both. I think they might have been defending both of themselves when the curse hit them both killing them.

No, Lupin was killed by Dolohov, Tonks by Bellatrix. JKR said so in an interview.

I loved the moment when we see the marauders one last time. I think that is why JK killed him off. That moment was pure poetry. Also she wanted to draw parallels between Harry's and Teddy's life. But me still sad that he died :sad: