Remus Lupin's Death

I hate that Lupin was killed off. I understand the signifigance of it and the poetic nature of the death, but it was yet another case of Jo building up the happiness in a character just in time for disaster. I know it is the fan in me talking, but at least a duel or an after the fact commentary from a witness would have seemed in order for such an important event, wouldn't it?

I loved the moment when we see the marauders one last time. I think that is why JK killed him off. That moment was pure poetry. Also she wanted to draw parallels between Harry's and Teddy's life. But me still sad that he died :sad:

Exactly. Also, I like how Harry singled him out to apologize. JKR has attested to speaking through her characters (namely Hermione and Dumbledore) on numerous occasions, and I have a feeling Harry's apology might have been one of those moments. I know Lupin was a favorite of hers, and she probably felt pretty guilty about killing him off like that.

I kind of think it was careless to phrase it as "an exchange of hostages" though. I mean, Lupin clearly has a special place in a lot of fans' hearts, and now people (myself included) feel kind of cheated that he only died because Arthur lived. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love Arthur and all the Weasleys. However, the fact that she killed him off because she saved Arthur gave me the immediate impressions that he wasn't important enough to her to merit a better reason for kicking the bucket.

However, if Jo said she killed him so he could be in the forest scene, I'd feel a little better about her reasoning, because that scene WAS sheer poetry. I think it was just unfortunate phrasing on her part in the interview!

I hate that Lupin was killed off. I understand the signifigance of it and the poetic nature of the death, but it was yet another case of Jo building up the happiness in a character just in time for disaster. I know it is the fan in me talking, but at least a duel or an after the fact commentary from a witness would have seemed in order for such an important event, wouldn't it?

Sentiments like this are a good argument for either an "extended edition" or a "lost stories of Harry Potter" book. In DH alone I can think of about four scenes that would be great if JK wrote them (or a good fanfic writer :lol:) - Lupin vs Dolohov; Tonks vs Bella; Hermione and Ron in the CoS, and Ginny / Neville / Lupin running the DA. Sort of an argument for DH part deux...:lol:

Sentiments like this are a good argument for either an "extended edition" or a "lost stories of Harry Potter" book. In DH alone I can think of about four scenes that would be great if JK wrote them (or a good fanfic writer :lol:) - Lupin vs Dolohov; Tonks vs Bella; Hermione and Ron in the CoS, and Ginny / Neville / Lupin running the DA. Sort of an argument for DH part deux...:lol:

Good idea! No, great idea!

I wish Jo had gone ahead and written the 1200 page book she probably could have and not left so much unsaid and unwritten. I know she always thought OOTP was too long, but it is still my favorite book. This one could have been longer and I don't think readers would have been able to put it down anyway.

As for 'everything that leads to his death',I think I'm one of the only people that believe that Remus didn't really love Tonks,that he just finally went along with what everyone thought he should do.

Oooh! Has this been discussed? Because I've wondered about it myself. He was probably fond of her but I never got the sense he was "in love"...but that could have been his natural reticence showing, and his reluctance to engage in a relationship. And he may have resented feeling coerced into one by what could possibly be interpreted as her emotional blackmail. But I guess that's a topic for a different thread. He was a pretty reluctant suitor, though, wasn't he? ;)

Oooh! Has this been discussed? Because I've wondered about it myself. He was probably fond of her but I never got the sense he was "in love"...but that could have been his natural reticence showing, and his reluctance to engage in a relationship. And he may have resented feeling coerced into one by what could possibly be interpreted as her emotional blackmail. But I guess that's a topic for a different thread. He was a pretty reluctant suitor, though, wasn't he? ;)

I was hoping someone would agree.It seemed as though he wasn't happy with it.Especially being a father.they must have considered children if they were getting married.I got the impression that nothing was discussed and they got married just for the sake of it.I can understand Remus wanting to be with someone,I just don't think that someone wasn't Tonks.It's almost as he finally got talked into being with her by everyone else(and the circumstances).

*sigh*
gah! why do all the marauders have to be dead?
it was sad.
and it was so quick. we don't even know how he died or who killed him. he was just dead...
i'm gunna cry again.

On my first read, Remus being my favorite character of the series hands down, was actually very happy with the whole thing. I wanted him to get away from the cruel society and rejoin his friends in a happier afterlife. I was glad he had experienced earthly love with Tonks and Teddy and also that he was able to get close to Harry before he died. Harry's grief for Remus was apparent on my re-read because at first I thought it was shallow, but 2nd time thru, he does go through trauma over it and repeatedly thinks of Rem and Tonks after their deaths - plus bringing Rem back.

The only thing I was upset about was that on the first read I thought Rem and Tonks were lying there in death, with absolutely no one paying them the least bit of attention or grieving - everyone seemed to be surrounding Fred (understandable as it was his family, but still sad for Rem and tonks).

But on my re-read, I realized that the family was surrounding the bodies, Rem and Tonks next to Fred and Harry hadn't been able to see Rem and Tonks as they had been blocked by the family about them. Well that made the whole deal better for me and now I can say that I am a very content Remus fan.

Good gracious, I've always known/feared he would die... but that didn't make things any easier... His death was such a painful thing to read about...

Yet, somehow, it all makes perfect sense now. The Marauders are finally together, reunited yet again - and nothing can separate them now. That is what's comforting me... That, and the fact Tonks is up there with him - so all the people he ever loved are there (except his son and Harry, but that's not the point), he is not alone. Romantic way of seeing things, I know, but that's who I am.

Still I very much dreaded his death because of his newborn son... I thought - now he'd be an orphan and Harry MUST survive, because little Teddy would need him, just like Harry needed Sirius while growing up. Thank God all turned well for Harry, so Teddy had somebody to grow up with.

I see Remus's death as being significnt, I mean, not only is it the end of an era (with all the Marauders dead) but it also gives a hint of what's to come - before, a small boy was orphaned, and he was raised by relatives who didn't really care about him, without his godfather, whereas now, a small has also been orphaned, but he's raised by loving family, spends a great deal of time with his godfather, and has a happy, normal childhood. It's like a sign that things have changed for the better in the world.

I guess in a way, I'd already seen it coming. I'd always agreed with those who said that all the Marauders would have "gone on" by the end of the series. Even though Remus is my favorite character, by the time the Battle of Hogwarts began, I was already steeling myself.

However, I don't think he'd've been able to go in a better way. He was killed fighting for those he loved--Harry, his friends, his wife, and his son. He went down fighting with a vision of better days, and he left the world content. He's gone to be with his closest friends, and he will also have Tonks by his side forever :)

The sad thing was that I wasn't suprised by his death. :(

It was a shock because it was so sudden. Though on a re-read I registered the fact that he had been fighting Dolohov (according to Aberforth) and we saw Dolohov not long after, which indicates that he won the duel. I think Tonks found Remus while he was still fighting Dolohov and Dolohov killed both of them, or they were killed by other Death Eaters while fighting him.

It was a shock because it was so sudden. Though on a re-read I registered the fact that he had been fighting Dolohov (according to Aberforth) and we saw Dolohov not long after, which indicates that he won the duel. I think Tonks found Remus while he was still fighting Dolohov and Dolohov killed both of them, or they were killed by other Death Eaters while fighting him.

J.K. confirmed that Remus was killed by Dolohov, and Tonks by Bellatrix

As I was reading I predicted that Tonks was going to die, and I really thought that Lupin would be left alone to raise Teddy, and that they would become really close to each other like best friends!

A lot of us believed that Remus was a much more powerful wizard then had ever been shown.I wish there had been at least one battle,so we could have seen it.

Throughout the series I became very fond of both Lupin and Tonks. I always hoped that they would both survive and live a happy life together. However, when Lupin asked Harry to be the Godfather of his son I recognized this immediately as the foreshadowing of Lupin's death. I was really shocked to discover that Tonks also died though! :upset:

I was a little disappointed in how their death was handled. I felt like their death was just briefly mentioned as though it wasn't really important. I think that the heroic death of these two wonderful characters deserved more attention.

I was a little disappointed in how their death was handled. I felt like their death was just briefly mentioned as though it wasn't really important. I think that the heroic death of these two wonderful characters deserved more attention.

I thought it was handled well. Seeing their bodies sends Harry reeling into shock, which I think shows how striking and important Remus and Tonks' deaths were to him. In the forest, Harry brings Remus back and specifically apologizes for causing his death. And even after the battle, Harry still thinks of them. I think the focus on their deaths was very present.

I was really expecting Remus and Tonks to survive. Lupin was the only truly good marauder, and was the last one (knew wormtail would die). They had just had a baby months before too. I did not see anything more in his and Tonks' death other than it was really lame. I couldn't believe that *neither* of them survived.

Turns out he was actually supposed to live. Rowling didn't even say this time that there was a deep profound reason why the character died. There wasn't.

It was just because she wanted to see a father figure die, and she is fond of red-heads, so Arthur Weasley was spared in the fifth book. A price had to be paid, in her words, that she decided not to kill off a character that she was particularly fond of. She also mentioned how rare good dads were and that she just couldn't kill off Arthur, since he was a good dad. I guess Lupin was a bad father?

Im going to guess the second character that was meant to live, but didn't because Arthur lived, was Tonks. Even before I saw that interview, I figured that most of the deaths were due to this kind of reasoning.

I just want to say...I don't want to be the angry fan that latches onto an issue and constantly posts and complains. I want to be at peace with Tonks and Lupin dying - I hate welling up every time I think of HP - I don't want to have to push these books away. I just feel like the evil of bigotry won a victory in the narrative.
But it just seems really hollow to me:

Idunno. I just feel awful and hate that I do. I'm really glad that others are okay with what happened. I want to feel all right with it too.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. I have read and re read this series until my books have literally fallen apart. Yet I cannot bring myself to re read DH, at least not anything related to Lupin or Tonks.

I agree with previous posters. I think the relationship was a distraction from the plot and planned with the intent of killing them. You could see it coming in OOTP. But to treat Lupin with such incredible disrespect by giving him, what, 5 words to announce his death. :no: I just can't read it - it makes me angry.

Y'know I know what you guys mean, after OOPT I didn't want to re-read the book cos of Sirius dying. I definitely didn't want to re-read PoA cos thats when we first met him. Now DH bothers me a bit cos of Lupin and Tonks. (and now PoA will bother me even more) Oh no! I think it'll be a while before I can re-read HP at all. :sad:

Now I'm definitely glad I didn't have to 'see' Lupin die. But y'know, they're great books and there is a kind of happy ever after cos we know things are better for Lupin and friends on the other side.

Y'know I know what you guys mean, after OOPT I didn't want to re-read the book cos of Sirius dying. I definitely didn't want to re-read PoA cos thats when we first met him. Now DH bothers me a bit cos of Lupin and Tonks. (and now PoA will bother me even more) Oh no! I think it'll be a while before I can re-read HP at all.

I did right the contrary: I finished DH and went immediately for PoA, and all his scenes in GoF and HBP. I must be the masochist type... I still can't believe that that nice guy that told Neville to put his grandma's dress on Snape can be dead.

I've read much about JKR intending to kill him, or killing him because she didn't want to kill Arthur, but must kill a father figure, or that his relationship with Tonks was a red-herring... I rather think that she simply wanted to prove that it was a war, and that in the war there are absurd, unfair deaths of people we all love.

JK Rowling said that in one of her interviews that it was Dolohov that killed Remus, which means that when Tonks went to find him, he was already fighting the fight to death. I had a scary feeling when I re-read the book that he had died before Tonks found him, because when Aberforth mentioned that he was duelling Dolohov, he says he hadnt seen him since that. That's scary.

Also JK Rowling says that Bellatrix killed Tonks. So I think that Tonks arrived at Remus' body and found he was dead and saw Bellatrix and started duelling with her furiously and Bellatrix got her there, beside her husband.

I though this was very cruel of Rowling to kill Ted Tonks, Remus and Tonks... Poor Teddy Lupin. Remus was one of my favourite charcters and it broke my heart to find out he died, just after he found hapiness in is only son. I didn't care too much for it begin off screen; I'm not sure I could stand actually seeing him die.

And I think Remus really loved Tonks, and that's why he done so many problems in this realtionship; He really believed that he made her an outcast, that her parents are disguisted by her now, and that as long as he's with her, she's in danger (he turned out to be right on the last one; Bellatrix wanted to kill Tonks because she married Remus).

Poor Teddy,He never grew with both of his parents. Although Harry was there as his godfather, I still pity him. For some reasons I think there is a small similarities with him and his godfather..

Even though I was saddened by his death, I would have liked to have seen how he died, who he fought etc. It just seemed to lessen his death to see him running into battle and the next time, just one of many bodies on the floor. He deserved more than that.

Y'know I know what you guys mean, after OOPT I didn't want to re-read the book cos of Sirius dying.

I never saw the appeal of Sirus so it didn't bother me when he died and I can still enjoy the book. But I understand your grief perfectly because I feel that way about Snape - I didn't want to reread the last book because he dies in it. It kind of ruined the whole series for me since it all leads up to that point.

But since this is a post about Remus Lupin, I was also okay with him dying, although I think he was a worthy enough character to deserved a death scene. It was all very sudden. I think that the fact that he died with his wife {even though more tragic for their child} helped me to get over him dying because you know that he is not alone, and there is a wizarding afterlife where they can be together happily.

I was sad but no where near as torn up as I thought I would be. I thought I would be destroyed if Remus Lupin died... but no. I just got a sick feeling in my stomach.

After all Lupin had done for everyone, for Harry, the way his and Tonks' death are just thrown in, it really felt like a kick in the guts. Im glad that Harry and Lupin were able to resolve their early argument though and that Lupin was happy and fighting beside the woman that he loved.

I was actually glad JKR wrote it the way she did. I wouldn't have liked to have read about 'how' Remus died - all of the deaths were terrible. I like what I came up with in my head much better. Just knowing he died valiantly in battle was enough. Too, he was my favorite and I wanted him to head off to the "next great adventure" as DD put it, and join his friends, be young, healthy and happy again. I was really getting bummed with his constant 'tired and worn out appearance' and his being shunned and outcast at every turn. So seeing him come back in the reunion scene was like the best moment in the book for me. I didn't even have to imagine what I had hoped for, she wrote it out. That he left a legacy (Teddy) was also a wonderful touch - and of course that Harry (the only other son of a Marauder) was his godfather.

I still can't believe that that nice guy that told Neville to put his grandma's dress on Snape can be dead.

Bah! I forgot about that! :upset: I can't believe it either! He was such a great guy! :upset:

But I understand your grief perfectly because I feel that way about Snape - I didn't want to reread the last book because he dies in it. It kind of ruined the whole series for me since it all leads up to that point.

I'm sorry SusieLovesSnape, but you're right, it's nice to know there's a wizarding afterlife, it does make me feel better.

I wouldn't have liked to have read about 'how' Remus died - all of the deaths were terrible.

Yeah, I totally agree with you wickedwickedboy, everything you said actually. I think I would've been just crushed if JK had played his death scene out. (as if the others weren't bad enough)

Y'know, even though I really love HP i have to say this book, the whole series, but especially DH was a bit of a blood bath. Absolutely no one was spared. Not owl, nor house-elf, people lost limbs! And now our last Marauder... alas! I don't think I've ever read a series of books in which almost all my favourite characters die. Y'know it's a good thing those marauders had fun in their youth cos their lives as adults sort of... sucked.

But, yeah, inspite of everything I was glad to see him come back in that chapter, (and Sirius) it was comforting to see him look happier. But it was still kind of sad. :sigh:

I'm actually of two minds--half of me wants to see Remus's death scene, and the other half doesn't. Both options are equally painful, see... :(

Him being in the forest made me feel better about his death, though. It was nice to hear about him being happy and young again. He's with his friends and with his wife. I don't think there could be a happier place for him :) (well, except one with Teddy in it)

I think that acutally not seeing Lupin being killed, lessened it a little for me. I was in shock rather than anything at first. Obvously I was sad after the shock of it, but it really softened the feeling of sadness not watching him killed and doubled the shock seeing him (and poor Tonks) dead in a "bed".

Lupin's death was pointless, the only reason I can think JK did it was to say "even good people die in war", well no duh, you didn't need to pointlessly kill 3 characters(Fred,Lupin,Tonks) to tell us that.

Lupin's death was pointless, the only reason I can think JK did it was to say "even good people die in war", well no duh, you didn't need to pointlessly kill 3 characters(Fred,Lupin,Tonks) to tell us that.

We know it, but we don't necessarily feel it. That was the point of those deaths--that we would understand the feeling of such a loss. In my opinion, they made the battle real--if every one of the good guys survived, then it wouldn't have made sense.

Remus, Tonks, and Fred fell as warriors fighting fot the light, and I think it was an honorable way to go

For me the saddest part is that we never saw Remus fight to his death. With Sirius we saw him in all his glory fighting like a soldier, brandishing his wand, "raining spells" and "duelling so fiercely that hisr wands was a blur". We saw him mock death and laugh at the face of his own death. I wanted something similar with Remus. Call me crazy but we have pretty detailed accounts of the death of all the marauders but Remus and I think that it is unfair. I get that he wasn't as "main" a character as Snape or Sirius but it doesn't mean we love him any less.

Remus and Tonks died together in battle, fighting for a better world for their son to live in. I disagree that this is pointless. If Remus would have chosen how to die, it would not have been by biting himself to death at the full moon, it would have been preserving the future of the world for his own flesh and blood. Remus' death was desperately sad but unavoidable. I just wish he could have taken down at least one death eater as he went, because the man was a hero.
Kind of obvious he's one of my favourite characters, I can't even string a coherent argument together. I think the point is, we should have got to see him burnout with a blaze of glory.

I hated the fact that Lupin died after having had a great opportunity at happiness. After all he went through, he deserved to be happy...but that's war I guess... I was shocked when I found out he died because of all of them, I identified more with moony...

i made my opinion about the death of the lupins' in the thread about Fred's death. Even thoguh I still feel so upset for Fred, it is a fact that his death was at least witnessed by Harry and therefore witnessed by us. We saw the reactions of the people who loved Fred, like Percy going after Rookwood, Ron losing it and Hermione trying to get him under control although she was sobbing too... But we never saw any of that for Lupin and Tonks. I mean, it's a bit unfair really.. Remus has been with us in the series since the third book and he was a significant character. He was overshadowed by Sirius especially in GoF and OotP when he took over the guardian and advisor figure in Harry's life. Remember how Harry turned to Lupin for advice in PoA when he didn't find out the truth about Sirius?
Anyway, his significance even grew with the succeeding books as he grew to be a vital member of the Order. His doubts about what kind of a father he will be, his insecurities about getting married with Tonks, his fate which made him endure a lifetime of not being accepted.. We all got to witness those and how he seemed to grow more and more confident about having a family of his own.. So, what I'm trying to get to is that Lupin was a character whose birth and growth we all witnessed so I feel indignant at how we didn't get to see his ending. Maybe Jkr wanted it this way because it would have been much harder for Harry to walk into the forest after he had actually witnessed another loved one's death, I don't know. All I know is Lupin totally deserved a more detailed and well written death. He was the last remaining member of the Marauders after all, he should have gone like one and we should have seen it and realized the whole injustice and infairness about the going on war if that what she had intended to make us see. The way she chose to send off Lupin does not explain how good people, too, die in wars at all, that's just nonsense if that was the reason she came up with the way Lupin's death was explained. I mean, really it just doesn't make sense.
By the way, I believe that what made Tonks such an easy target for her horrible excuse of an aunt, Bellatrix, is that when she ran off to find Remus after Aberforth told her that the last he saw him was when he was duelling Dolohov, she found him dead and in that vulnerable state, she turned out to become an easier prey for Bellatrix. But it might also be possible that she got all Molly Weasley and fought with all she had against Bellatrix after seeing Remus dead but she just couldn't make it and wasn't as lucky and determined as Molly.

i made my opinion about the death of the lupins' in the thread about Fred's death. Even thoguh I still feel so upset for Fred, it is a fact that his death was at least witnessed by Harry and therefore witnessed by us. We saw the reactions of the people who loved Fred, like Percy going after Rookwood, Ron losing it and Hermione trying to get him under control although she was sobbing too... But we never saw any of that for Lupin and Tonks. I mean, it's a bit unfair really.. Remus has been with us in the series since the third book and he was a significant character.
Exactly what I was going to say. Lupin and Tonks were a fairly large part of the story, especially in DH. They went off to fight and then later it was like oh yeah by the way they died. Fred didn't have a long scene, but like you said, it was the reactions of people that made it more impactful. I wish we would have gotten something like that for Lupin and Tonks. It would be sad, but it would be closure.

Exactly what I was going to say. Lupin and Tonks were a fairly large part of the story, especially in DH. They went off to fight and then later it was like oh yeah by the way they died. Fred didn't have a long scene, but like you said, it was the reactions of people that made it more impactful. I wish we would have gotten something like that for Lupin and Tonks. It would be sad, but it would be closure.

I respect your wish and I do understand your feelings. Lupin was my fav. and I really didn't want the details of his death because JKR tended to make deaths a bit morbid. I wouldn't like to think about that.

But I still say JKR was giving all of the characters a "character death". Remus was foremost compassionate, quiet, calm, mellow, loving and kind. His death was the same, lying at his wife's side under the enchanted ceiling.

We all know he died dueling with Dolohov and that he died a valiant death. He was guiding a bunch of students and it is possible that he was trying to protect them even while fighting his own duel. Tonks lying beside him could mean that they were found near one another - perhaps he saw her and Bella dueling or even saw her going down and tried to send curses at Bella (although it may have been visa versa). But in the end we know that whatever happened, it was valiant and brave and that is a wonderful way to die, fighting bravely for Harry, the good cause and your loved ones - and to make the wizard world a better place.

Remus' death was the most pleasant death in the entire series - all the others were miserable - even when just expressions were described or those we heard about like mad-eye's eye in the ministry! I did wonder if perhaps JKR couldn't bear to write about Remus's death, but I think JKR just allowed him to die in character, bravely with quiet enchantment.

For me the saddest part is that we never saw Remus fight to his death. With Sirius we saw him in all his glory fighting like a soldier, brandishing his wand, "raining spells" and "duelling so fiercely that hisr wands was a blur". We saw him mock death and laugh at the face of his own death. I wanted something similar with Remus. Call me crazy but we have pretty detailed accounts of the death of all the marauders but Remus and I think that it is unfair. I get that he wasn't as "main" a character as Snape or Sirius but it doesn't mean we love him any less.

I don't agree. This "laughing at his own death" and glory fighting were never Lupin's type. He was a very skilled wizard, but not a brilliant and hyperkinetic one, like Sirius. I must confess that I can't imagine the way he died nor the way he should have died. I'm very sorry that he had to die but I prefer seein him lieing on bed than being killed and Tonks runing to him for help and being murdered by Bellatrix.

We all know he died dueling with Dolohov and that he died a valiant death. He was guiding a bunch of students and it is possible that he was trying to protect them even while fighting his own duel. Tonks lying beside him could mean that they were found near one another - perhaps he saw her and Bella dueling or even saw her going down and tried to send curses at Bella (although it may have been visa versa).

He was probably already dead when Tonks got there, vis a vis Aberforth and her conversation. Tonks probably never found him, and they were both lying next to Fred, so it was probably the Weasley's who had wanted their bodies together.

I did wonder if perhaps JKR couldn't bear to write about Remus's death, but I think JKR just allowed him to die in character, bravely with quiet enchantment.
I do wonder, too. By the point at which we saw Remus dead it was already a bit emotionally taxing, with Harry having just found out that he had to die, and watching Remus's death would have just been too much on top of it.
Funny, I remember back when I first joined the forums in 2003, people had been afraid that the Book 5 death would be Lupin's and assorted Moony fangirls (Cat being in the lead, yours truly included) formed the Cod Squad- whose mandate was to get to Edinburgh and smack JKR in the face with a large cod if she killed him off! And she has, only I don't think anyone has the heart to go through with it now...

I don't agree. This "laughing at his own death" and glory fighting were never Lupin's type. He was a very skilled wizard, but not a brilliant and hyperkinetic one, like Sirius. I must confess that I can't imagine the way he died nor the way he should have died. I'm very sorry that he had to die but I prefer seein him lieing on bed than being killed and Tonks runing to him for help and being murdered by Bellatrix.
What I meant was I would have liked a detailed version of his death. I would have felt something then. I felt cheated. I wanted to see the last marauder in action...

What I meant was I would have liked a detailed version of his death. I would have felt something then. I felt cheated. I wanted to see the last marauder in action...

I guess it depends on the person. I might have found it very difficult to go through the pages detailing how he died--I cried enough buckets seeing him dead. In my opinion, while the battle scene would have been a nice tribute to Remus, it was fine by me that there wasn't--I preferred having him described as peaceful and resting in his death.

[QUOTE=Drusilla;4755882]I do wonder, too. By the point at which we saw Remus dead it was already a bit emotionally taxing, with Harry having just found out that he had to die, and watching Remus's death would have just been too much on top of it. [QUOTE]

exactly what I was thinking and I mentioned it in my last post on this thread. I believe Jkr preferred to kill of Remus this way because it would be much harder for Harry to accept that he has to die and walk into the forest if he had actually seen Remus and Tonks' death on top of everything. There must be a reason why she chose to do it like this and I'd like to believe that it's for confine Harry's grief to just seeing them lying dead rather than actually seeing how they died, although Harry would suffer like hell both ways.

I don't agree. This "laughing at his own death" and glory fighting were never Lupin's type. He was a very skilled wizard, but not a brilliant and hyperkinetic one, like Sirius. I must confess that I can't imagine the way he died nor the way he should have died. I'm very sorry that he had to die but I prefer seein him lieing on bed than being killed and Tonks runing to him for help and being murdered by Bellatrix.


I think you're onto something here about his death being in keeping with the type of person he was.

I would also like to draw attention to a rather tidy parallel in that the first time Harry ever sees Lupin, Lupin appears to be asleep (I've always suspected he woke up and listened to the conversation, getting a feel for what Harry is like) and the last time Harry sees Lupin (his corporeal self, that is) Lupin again appears to be asleep.

As for picturing his death...try this on for size: Lupin is holding his own in a duel with Dolohov until he notices Greyback attacking a student, so he fires a curse to immobilize Greyback (I don't think he'd risk Avada Kedavra in case it hit the student instead), leaving himself vulnerable in that instant to a death blow from Dolohov. I'm sure if it came to a choice between defending himself or protecting a child, Lupin would go down protecting the child. So that's how I've been picturing his death scene.

What I want to know is who killed him and Tonks and whether one died defending the other. I was shocked by both deaths, but felt Remus's was coming. I loved seeing him return and knowing he was with James and Sirius in death.

There was an open question fan webchat with JK Rowling where this was answered, I was releaved to have this answered as well! Quote;-"Casey Kunze: Who killed Remus and Tonks I think if I knew this, I would get some closure over the very sad, but understandable, death of two of my favorite characters.
J.K. Rowling: I’m so sorry! I met a couple on launch night who had come dressed as Lupin and Tonks, and I felt dreadfully guilty as I signed their books! Remus was killed by Dolohov and Tonks by Bellatrix."

I was so upset, I said this in the thread on Fred's death, the moment that Lupin said "You'll be godfather Harry" I knew they wouldn't make it, i think I actually said "OH JO, no." my sister who's 10 was reading GOF in the corner (due to my presistance) she looked up and was like "what, who died?" I said, nobody new yet (I wasn't going to ruin it for her) but I know who will." I still couldn't believe she actually did it, i got a little choked up, but Sirius and Fred were worse!
I also was glad to know that he would always be with Harry, and i was glad that they came back to help him!

I was so upset when Lupin died. Yes, I will admit I cried. He was my favorite charater. What was the reason to kill him off? Really, there was no reason what so ever.

I was so upset when Lupin died. Yes, I will admit I cried. He was my favorite charater. What was the reason to kill him off? Really, there was no reason what so ever.

My favorite too...more than Harry even. I don't know if it helps, but he would be happier in the afterlife with his best mates - healthy, young, happy and nobody shunning him and his wife - and Teddy is happy. It was what I wanted, but I know lots of others wanted him to live. Still, it is a positive thought that he is happy now :)

I agree with those who didn't want to read more than Lupin and Tonks were lying under the enchanted ceiling as if asleep. That was perfect for me - I wouldn't have wanted to read more. I don't even imagine more, lol (and I won't look in the encylopedia if it is there either).

My favorite too...more than Harry even. I don't know if it helps, but he would be happier in the afterlife with his best mates - healthy, young, happy and nobody shunning him and his wife - and Teddy is happy. It was what I wanted, but I know lots of others wanted him to live. Still, it is a positive thought that he is happy now :)

I agree with those who didn't want to read more than Lupin and Tonks were lying under the enchanted ceiling as if asleep. That was perfect for me - I wouldn't have wanted to read more. I don't even imagine more, lol (and I won't look in the encylopedia if it is there either).

I personally can't believe that Remus would be happier with his friends then his won son.He could meet up with them anytime,this way he was missing watching his child grow up.I think that would have made him happy too.I understand you sentiment of him being able to rest,but I personally think he would have chosen life(if given the choice)

Something else that seriously bothers me is that we never get to see his real magical skill,because lets face it,he probably knew some great magic.Just one great battle to showcase that,surely we could have had that?

I personally can't believe that Remus would be happier with his friends then his won son.He could meet up with them anytime,this way he was missing watching his child grow up.I think that would have made him happy too.I understand you sentiment of him being able to rest,but I personally think he would have chosen life(if given the choice)

I agree with that, in DH, Lupin had a life worth living. More importantly he had a son who needed him. To suggest that he would be happier dead is to me, quite frankly, ludicrous.

I agree with that, in DH, Lupin had a life worth living. More importantly he had a son who needed him. To suggest that he would be happier dead is to me, quite frankly, ludicrous.

I know, like I have said, I am likely the only Remus fan that felt that way (and truly, I like him even more than Harry - who is 2nd) - although I just read of 2 others who shared my view in another fourm. Others have told me though that thinking of it that way makes them feel better, so I respond when someone writes about how miserable they feel. It cheers them because we can't bring him back, but at least they can imagine him happy.

I have no doubt that Remus would have wanted to live. He had tons to live for - Tonks, Teddy, Harry, Molly, his other friends he'd made in the order, helping with werewolf rights and laws - and other issues the cause was fighting for to make society a better place - and more.

However, my wish was a selfish one that made me personally happy inside. I've wanted him to die since OOTP, because to me, (despite Remus' wish to live) he will be happier in the after life - free from all worry, pain, being shunned and stress - with his friends again and wife - and looking forward to Teddy joining them one day (and tons of grand kids and years of Lupin legacy children). Also, others fought for the things he would have remained to do. Basically, if I had had to read about his too-grey hair, shabby clothes, too many lines in a young face, exhaustion and worried brow one more time - I was gonna scream, lol - one or more of these things were mentioned in nearly every scene he was in. And to imagine him at the end of the book in that condition, would have not been a nice ending for me at all - but again, you have to remember, he was my favorite. The reunion scene where she described him was brilliant.

I suppose one could see it as ludicrous, but we all have our personal views about death; I see it as DD described in JKR's world: The next great adventure! To me, everyone is happier there in the wizard after life.

That has been my wish for Remus for so long, even Tonks and Teddy didn't change my mind. :)

I agree with you IFink - I would have loved to have seen a duel (although not the final one). He showed cool ability on the train with his hand light conjuring bit and also was unscathed at the MOM battle and the HBP school battle - plus all the battles in the first war. I think he was likely pretty good and it would have been nice to see. But actually we didn't get to see lots of characters battle - that would have been cool as well.

Basically, if I had had to read about his too-grey hair, shabby clothes, too many lines in a young face, exhaustion and worried brow one more time - I was gonna scream, lol - one or more of these things were mentioned in nearly every scene he was in. And to imagine him at the end of the book in that condition, would have not been a nice ending for me at all - but again, you have to remember, he was my favorite. The reunion scene where she described him was brilliant.

Fault of JKR's writing, all characters had one standard description, and that happened to be his. Quite frankly I find the romanticising of the Marauders, tiresome, and while I think his death was sad for him, and more importantly for his son, the books are finished. Does it matter either way? The character was never going to be written about, again, anyway.

Fault of JKR's writing, all characters had one standard description, and that happened to be his. Quite frankly I find the romanticising of the Marauders, tiresome, and while I think his death was sad for him, and more importantly for his son, the books are finished. Does it matter either way? The character was never going to be written about, again, anyway.

I am not sure what you mean about the romanticising of the Marauders in relation to this thread about Remus' death. I respect your viewpoint that his death doesn't matter now because the book is over, but some of us do still have a view about it and want to share. I think that is great, I love hearing everyone's views. :)

I take it he wasn't your favorite character...and that is okay. But this thread is about Remus' death. I respect your viewpoint that his death doesn't matter now because the book is over, but some of us do still have a view about it and want to share. I think that is okay too. :)

No, I really liked Lupin, he was one of my favourites, and I think it is desperately sad that he died, for his son in particular. I easily understand, and completely agree with, the tragedy of depriving Teddy, of not one, but both parents. However, sometimes the talk about characters, especially the polarisation in opinions on the Marauders, baffles me. As I said, the tendency, to view them in a terribly romanticised way, or indeed the tendency to demonise them, I find wearisome. I really don’t think they were either saints or sinners.

No, I really liked Lupin, he was one of my favourites, and I think it is desperately sad that he died, for his son in particular. I easily understand, and completely agree with, the tragedy of depriving Teddy, of not one, but both parents. However, sometimes the talk about characters, especially the polarisation in opinions on the Marauders, baffles me. As I said, the tendency, to view them in a terribly romanticised way, or indeed the tendency to demonise them, I find wearisome. I really don’t think they were either saints or sinners.

I'm sorry, I do understand your weariness of Marauder talk, but I am not sure how you are tying that in with Remus' death or my previous posts. I totally respect and understand your sadness of Remus' death itself; I suspect most people felt that way. The number of people who felt as I did - happy for him - is likely pretty small. But it has nothing to do with the Marauders, it was for Remus I wished it. :)

I'm sorry, I do understand your weariness of Marauder talk, but I am not sure how you are tying that in with Remus' death or my previous posts. I totally respect and understand your sadness of Remus' death itself; I suspect most people felt that way. The number of people who felt as I did - happy for him - is likely pretty small. But it has nothing to do with the Marauders, it was for Remus I wished it. :)

If one believes that the marauders are having a party in the sky, in JKR’s world, well that’s fine. However I just think they were a particularly devoted group of friends, apart for Sirius, obviously, who viewed James (and in turn Harry) as his family.

If one believes that the marauders are having a party in the sky, in JKR’s world, well that’s fine. However I just think they were a particularly devoted group of friends, apart for Sirius, obviously, who viewed James (and in turn Harry) as his family.

I get were you are coming from being tired of people romanticizing the maruaders, but I have to admit I am one of those poeple I'm HUGE maruader fan and the idea that they're al finally together is great. As Remus death I do feel that it was sad but the one I truly feel bad for is Teddy he is the one that has to grow up without his parents and to me that was saddest aspect of the deaths of remus & Tonks that they left an orphaned kid.

I agree with that, in DH, Lupin had a life worth living. More importantly he had a son who needed him. To suggest that he would be happier dead is to me, quite frankly, ludicrous.

I'm of two minds about this, but I am leaning towards agreeing with wicked here.

I'm sure Remus regretted missing watching Teddy grow up. I am sure he would have loved to raise his son, and I'm sure that he did not want to die in that battle, for Tonks and Teddy.

However, I think that he would have felt better in death, because I see Remus as someone who has weathered so much in his life, and now needs to be completely at rest. He has fought too many battles, both personal and physical. He has spent so much of his life having to think for others and providing for others. For me, it was time he achieved personal joy and relief, surrounded by the best friends he so dearly loved and had surely missed.

I think Remus knew from the moment he decided to join the battle that death was very possible. But he could be completely at peace, because he'd left Teddy in the best of hands, and he knew he'd be OK. And if I am reading the Resurrection Stone scene correctly, it appears that the dead continue to "watch over" those they have left behind, and Remus would be at peace knowing how his son would turn out fine in the end.

I'm of two minds about this, but I am leaning towards agreeing with wicked here.

I'm sure Remus regretted missing watching Teddy grow up. I am sure he would have loved to raise his son, and I'm sure that he did not want to die in that battle, for Tonks and Teddy.

However, I think that he would have felt better in death, because I see Remus as someone who has weathered so much in his life, and now needs to be completely at rest. He has fought too many battles, both personal and physical. He has spent so much of his life having to think for others and providing for others. For me, it was time he achieved personal joy and relief, surrounded by the best friends he so dearly loved and had surely missed.

I think Remus knew from the moment he decided to join the battle that death was very possible. But he could be completely at peace, because he'd left Teddy in the best of hands, and he knew he'd be OK. And if I am reading the Resurrection Stone scene correctly, it appears that the dead continue to "watch over" those they have left behind, and Remus would be at peace knowing how his son would turn out fine in the end.


I agree... you put it perfectly. I too interpreted the reunion scene that way. Those who returned knew exactly what was going on without Harry having to tell them ('you are very close, it's almost over' and 'voldemort will make it quick, he wants it over' - paraphrase). So they will certainly see how everything turns out :)

I agree with you IFink - I would have loved to have seen a duel (although not the final one). He showed cool ability on the train with his hand light conjuring bit and also was unscathed at the MOM battle and the HBP school battle - plus all the battles in the first war. I think he was likely pretty good and it would have been nice to see. But actually we didn't get to see lots of characters battle - that would have been cool as well.

I honestly feel a bit cheated,we had so many indications of his skill,almost building upto a great display of magic.Remus was one of the main characters though,we really should have got something(IMO)

It was so sad. He was the last one alive of the four marauders and then he died :(

I was SO SHOCKED that I almost screamed my head of when I found out that Remus Lupin died.I mean of ALL people to die in the last book he was the last person I thought who would...Besides,since Sirius died i always thought that Lupin would be alive for Harry-as someone from the Mauraders Group to be there for Harry after the whole mess is over...

While I don't think Remus went into the final battle seeking death, I do think he went in unafraid of death. Yes, he had a lot to live for, but he also had lost almost everyone else he held dear besides Tonks and Teddy. His lack of fear of death may have led to him volunteering to take the most dangerous job of all at the final battle (besides being named Harry Potter): he led a squad fighters out onto the grounds. Granted, he knew the grounds better than anyone at the battle, but it was still the most dangerous job. Remus likely never consciously thought "I'm going to die here", but subconsciously he was at peace when he fell at Dolohov's hands, IMO.

I get were you are coming from being tired of people romanticizing the maruaders, but I have to admit I am one of those poeple I'm HUGE maruader fan and the idea that they're al finally together is great. As Remus death I do feel that it was sad but the one I truly feel bad for is Teddy he is the one that has to grow up without his parents and to me that was saddest aspect of the deaths of remus & Tonks that they left an orphaned kid.

Well thats just it. The life of a small child, is more important then the lifes of the parents. Most parents would agree. It is for Teddy that Lupin's (and tonks') death is most sad. He should have had his parents. It is the trade off of becoming a parent. You hope and pray (if one is religious) that you are left on this plant long enough, till the time when your child can take care of themselves.

However, I think that he would have felt better in death, because I see Remus as someone who has weathered so much in his life, and now needs to be completely at rest. He has fought too many battles, both personal and physical. He has spent so much of his life having to think for others and providing for others. For me, it was time he achieved personal joy and relief, surrounded by the best friends he so dearly loved and had surely missed.

Many many people have a great many hardships in life, and no matter how welcome they find the concept of death, when there is a child involved, their needs take centre stage. Teddy needed parents. I am sure Lupin did find rest in death (as we wish that everyone would), but it isn't really the point.

And if I am reading the Resurrection Stone scene correctly, it appears that the dead continue to "watch over" those they have left behind, and Remus would be at peace knowing how his son would turn out fine in the end.

Do we really have any indication that any of that was real? It could have been Harry's method of summoning the courage to do what he must. It is left to our own imagination to decide whether it was physically real, or just mentally realistic. Which are essentially the last words of Dumbledore to Harry: even if it is all in your head, why would that make it less real? Is the psychological world any less real then the physical? Essentially a very philosophical question.

Well thats just it. The life of a small child, is more important then the lifes of the parents. Most parents would agree. It is for Teddy that Lupin's (and tonks') death is most sad. He should have had his parents. It is the trade off of becoming a parent. You hope and pray (if one is religious) that you are left on this plant long enough, till the time when your child can take care of themselves.

Many many people have a great many hardships in life, and no matter how welcome they find the concept of death, when there is a child involved, their needs take centre stage. Teddy needed parents. I am sure Lupin did find rest in death (as we wish that everyone would), but it isn't really the point.

I apologize, but I am confused as to what should be the point. I personally think Remus was indeed happy and peaceful when he died because he knew Teddy was going to be OK. As he told Harry, he regretted not being able to actually be there and raise Teddy, but he knew he had nothing to worry about with regards to that. I don't see why he should have continued fretting even after death.

It was, I would think, one of the few times wherein Remus was carefree. He could completely relax now. There was nothing else to fear--he was free of all that he had had to fight in his life--prejudice, Death Eaters, poverty, etc. He was surrounded with his friends, and eventually joined by his wife in a place where things were so much better. I'm certain he continued to think of Teddy, but he didn't have to do so with fear and worry. He had already given his very life to fight for a better world for Teddy--in my opinion, that is one of the most incredible and powerful sacrifices one can make for a loved one.

Do we really have any indication that any of that was real? It could have been Harry's method of summoning the courage to do what he must. It is left to our own imagination to decide whether it was physically real, or just mentally realistic. Which are essentially the last words of Dumbledore to Harry: even if it is all in your head, why would that make it less real? Is the psychological world any less real then the physical? Essentially a very philosophical question.

I think that scene is real, because it shows us why the Resurrection Stone is there, in Harry's hands. If that scene was all in Harry's head, then the Deathly Hallows have been shorn of their value. If the Stone isn't real, why should the Wand or the Cloak be any more so? Why was the Stone introduced, if the scene wherein it was a vital instrument was merely a figment of Harry's imagination? There would then be essentially no need to introduce the Stone as part of the Deathly Hallows.

I apologize, but I am confused as to what should be the point. I personally think Remus was indeed happy and peaceful when he died because he knew Teddy was going to be OK. As he told Harry, he regretted not being able to actually be there and raise Teddy, but he knew he had nothing to worry about with regards to that. I don't see why he should have continued fretting even after death.

It was, I would think, one of the few times wherein Remus was carefree. He could completely relax now. There was nothing else to fear--he was free of all that he had had to fight in his life--prejudice, Death Eaters, poverty, etc. He was surrounded with his friends, and eventually joined by his wife in a place where things were so much better. I'm certain he continued to think of Teddy, but he didn't have to do so with fear and worry. He had already given his very life to fight for a better world for Teddy--in my opinion, that is one of the most incredible and powerful sacrifices one can make for a loved one.

The dead are free, and nothing can harm them. Teddy was safe, and Tonks and Lupin had made sure of that, so if anything did happen to them he would be well taken care of; but he needed parents. For him it would have been better if they had lived, and as a parent I cannot imagine that Lupin felt any different to this.
However, and this is a personal view of the after life, I really don't believe that there is any cognisant after life. That all those that die, find rest and relief from the hardships of life, is our most potent wish, and it is the living who suffer must from the death of loved one’s. Those that we lose are at rest and can feel no more pain. So yes Lupin was free from the hardships of life with his 'furry little problem'.


I think that scene is real, because it shows us why the Resurrection Stone is there, in Harry's hands. If that scene was all in Harry's head, then the Deathly Hallows have been shorn of their value. If the Stone isn't real, why should the Wand or the Cloak be any more so? Why was the Stone introduced, if the scene wherein it was a vital instrument was merely a figment of Harry's imagination? There would then be essentially no need to introduce the Stone as part of the Deathly Hallows.

That’s the choice that everyone has to make. There is no right or wrong answer. The whole basis of the stone was being able to summon the dead to you. If you do not believe in the power of the stone, then it would follow that you couldn't access its power (real or otherwise). It doesn't matter whether the stone actually brought those people to Harry, the important thing is that he felt and thought they were with him. Real, imagined, it doesn't matter in the end. The clock appeared to be a different matter, and the elder wand too had a large psychological basis. In the end it wasn't unbeatable, just served as an ironic way to enable Voldemort's defeat (but that's neither here nor there in this discussion).

I read the book as I read all fantasy genre (which is 3/4 of my book collection, lol). I just go with whatever the author sets up for her world and so it becomes like a fun escape. In JKR's world there is an afterlife - DD said it was the 'next great adventure' which means that whatever they are doing, it is great fun.

The resurrection stone works like the Cloak and the Elder Wand, which also both worked in JKR's world. The stone brought a lad's fiance back who he actually lived with for a time. It also brought Harry's loved ones, including Remus, back in the same form. When they returned, they told Harry things he didn't know (just like when James came out of the wand in GoF and did the same thing). So in her world she created, they are cognizant spirits - not real, but only more real that ghosts when they are summoned by the stone (of course in her world ghosts exist too and they are dead - but didn't move on). Harry's loved ones returning was akin to Tom Riddle coming out of the diary for Harry - and that Tom was definitely cognizant and telling Harry a multitude of things. At the same time, they were a part of him, always with him - so in a way the stone allowed him to become cognizant of them in a real way - that is, he could communicate, etc. that is the philosophical part of it. :)

The events concerning the stone wasn't what Harry was asking about when he asked if it was real or in his head. What Harry asked DD about being in his mind was his chat with DD at Kings Cross because as far as he knew, he was still alive, but DD was dead so they were in a weird state of Limbo and Harry was unsure if it was all in his mind or not. (JKR said she thought of it as a state of limbo). Harry had actually been present in the forest and conscious, he knew he was experiencing the spirits from the stone - and But when he sat with DD, his body was still on the forest floor and so in a way, it was all in his head.

But Remus, like Sirius, James and Lily, moved on to the afterlife. Which I didn't doubt for a moment Remus would do. Despite the fact that he could have returned to live floating over Teddy his whole life in ghost form (like headless nick), I knew he would go on because DD also said that the brave will move on into the next great adventure in the after life.

So that was my view. However, I think everyone will take whatever impression they like best from the reading and it is always cool to hear various view points. :)

I think you've got it pretty much spot on there, wickedwickedboy.

Excellently put, wicked :tu:

I read the book as I read all fantasy genre (which is 3/4 of my book collection, lol). I just go with whatever the author sets up for her world and so it becomes like a fun escape. In JKR's world there is an afterlife - DD said it was the 'next great adventure' which means that whatever they are doing, it is great fun.

The resurrection stone works like the Cloak and the Elder Wand, which also both worked in JKR's world. The stone brought a lad's fiance back who he actually lived with for a time. It also brought Harry's loved ones, including Remus, back in the same form. When they returned, they told Harry things he didn't know (just like when James came out of the wand in GoF and did the same thing). So in her world she created, they are cognizant spirits - not real, but only more real that ghosts when they are summoned by the stone (of course in her world ghosts exist too and they are dead - but didn't move on). Harry's loved ones returning was akin to Tom Riddle coming out of the diary for Harry - and that Tom was definitely cognizant and telling Harry a multitude of things. At the same time, they were a part of him, always with him - so in a way the stone allowed him to become cognizant of them in a real way - that is, he could communicate, etc. that is the philosophical part of it. :)

The events concerning the stone wasn't what Harry was asking about when he asked if it was real or in his head. What Harry asked DD about being in his mind was his chat with DD at Kings Cross because as far as he knew, he was still alive, but DD was dead so they were in a weird state of Limbo and Harry was unsure if it was all in his mind or not. (JKR said she thought of it as a state of limbo). Harry had actually been present in the forest and conscious, he knew he was experiencing the spirits from the stone - and But when he sat with DD, his body was still on the forest floor and so in a way, it was all in his head.

But Remus, like Sirius, James and Lily, moved on to the afterlife. Which I didn't doubt for a moment Remus would do. Despite the fact that he could have returned to live floating over Teddy his whole life in ghost form (like headless nick), I knew he would go on because DD also said that the brave will move on into the next great adventure in the after life.

So that was my view. However, I think everyone will take whatever impression they like best from the reading and it is always cool to hear various view points. :)

It was never about them though; it was about him (Harry). Harry thought they were there, so therefore for him they were. Doesn't matter whether the stone can actually call the dead for the afterlife or not, it is not their story. There is nothing about JKR’s afterlife that varies from a christen view; we are all told death is the next great adventure. It is the healthiest way of looking at it, and keeps most sane. Same with Dumbledore, he may have actually gone to some meeting place between life and death, or he may have been knocked out by the spell. It was real to Harry, which is what is important.

The diary was completely different and acted like an imprint, like the map or the portraits.

It was never about them though; it was about him (Harry). Harry thought they were there, so therefore for him they were. Doesn't matter whether the stone can actually call the dead for the afterlife or not, it is not their story. There is nothing about JKR’s afterlife that varies from a christen view; we are all told death is the next great adventure. It is the healthiest way of looking at it, and keeps most sane. Same with Dumbledore, he may have actually gone to some meeting place between life and death, or he may have been knocked out by the spell. It was real to Harry, which is what is important.

The diary was completely different and acted like an imprint, like the map or the portraits.

But then, as I mentioned before, it would negate the power of the Stone. Why was it important that it was left to Harry, if all it provided was something Harry could have achieved with his own imagination? Why then does the legend say the second brother's fiancee suffered when called back, when all it could have been was his imagination (and so he could have controlled the vision and made them happy together)? Why is it important enough to be included as part of the Hallows? J.K. could easily have left it out of the story and replaced it with a scene wherein Harry imagines the whole scene instead. It would have saved a lot of explanation and page space.

In my opinion, the Stone was placed into the plot for a reason. Its story was elaborated upon for a reason--it did something unusual, something that no other plot point we've been introduced to hadn't been able to. It gave us a glimpse of the adventure after death. It showed us how some of the characters we loved and lost, like Remus, are at this stage, in a way that was real and not just assumption, speculation, or description from living characters. It gave us a sort of last reassurance that James, Lily, Sirius, and Remus are at peace and happy, and that they watched over Harry. It gives us that last glimpse of Remus before he leaves forever--as a father who loved his child so much that he fought for his tomorrow, even at the cost of his own life. Remus left Teddy content and ready to enjoy his afterlife with his friends because his sacrifice, I think, was the very most he felt he could give to Teddy--his life for his son's security in the future, and a legacy Teddy could carry proudly.

Despite absolutely HATING Lupin's death, I've actually come to understand it's logical importance:

We all know Harry's parents died before he could remember them, leaving him a comlete orphan, and yet, despite his many hardships, he manages to live a memorable, great life and become a very good person$ his parents' deaths only aid him in the end, as we learn the true significance of Lily's death. Teddy's story is supposed to be a reflection of Harry's, I think, but with the obvious exeption that he actually has, from his very birth, lots of people who care for him and will always be there for him.

I think another reason that Lupin HAD to die, was that with all the Marauders gone, he was left somehow a lonely stranger in this world. Even Tonks couldn't be to him what his friends were - the scene with the Ressurection Stone shows the bittersweet reconcillation with his old friends.

I disagree that Tonks could not be to him what his friends were, as she was his wife after all so we can assume they were very close.
I think he would be happier with all of them there, his childhood friends and his wife, all together in death. Although obviously sad to never know his son of course.

But then, as I mentioned before, it would negate the power of the Stone. Why was it important that it was left to Harry, if all it provided was something Harry could have achieved with his own imagination? Why then does the legend say the second brother's fiancee suffered when called back, when all it could have been was his imagination (and so he could have controlled the vision and made them happy together)? Why is it important enough to be included as part of the Hallows? J.K. could easily have left it out of the story and replaced it with a scene wherein Harry imagines the whole scene instead. It would have saved a lot of explanation and page space.

In my opinion, the Stone was placed into the plot for a reason. Its story was elaborated upon for a reason--it did something unusual, something that no other plot point we've been introduced to hadn't been able to. It gave us a glimpse of the adventure after death. It showed us how some of the characters we loved and lost, like Remus, are at this stage, in a way that was real and not just assumption, speculation, or description from living characters. It gave us a sort of last reassurance that James, Lily, Sirius, and Remus are at peace and happy, and that they watched over Harry. It gives us that last glimpse of Remus before he leaves forever--as a father who loved his child so much that he fought for his tomorrow, even at the cost of his own life. Remus left Teddy content and ready to enjoy his afterlife with his friends because his sacrifice, I think, was the very most he felt he could give to Teddy--his life for his son's security in the future, and a legacy Teddy could carry proudly.


I couldn't have put it better, well said :tu: I agree completely. I respect every's view - but what you have stated Blue is exactly how I saw it, it was, to me the most reasonable reading of the book (personally). So it is the one I carry with me and I loved it. My favorite part of the book and in fact, of the entire series.

But then, as I mentioned before, it would negate the power of the Stone. Why was it important that it was left to Harry, if all it provided was something Harry could have achieved with his own imagination? Why then does the legend say the second brother's fiancee suffered when called back, when all it could have been was his imagination (and so he could have controlled the vision and made them happy together)? Why is it important enough to be included as part of the Hallows? J.K. could easily have left it out of the story and replaced it with a scene wherein Harry imagines the whole scene instead. It would have saved a lot of explanation and page space.

In my opinion, the Stone was placed into the plot for a reason. Its story was elaborated upon for a reason--it did something unusual, something that no other plot point we've been introduced to hadn't been able to. It gave us a glimpse of the adventure after death. It showed us how some of the characters we loved and lost, like Remus, are at this stage, in a way that was real and not just assumption, speculation, or description from living characters. It gave us a sort of last reassurance that James, Lily, Sirius, and Remus are at peace and happy, and that they watched over Harry. It gives us that last glimpse of Remus before he leaves forever--as a father who loved his child so much that he fought for his tomorrow, even at the cost of his own life. Remus left Teddy content and ready to enjoy his afterlife with his friends because his sacrifice, I think, was the very most he felt he could give to Teddy--his life for his son's security in the future, and a legacy Teddy could carry proudly.

But it does it really matter. It’s served its purpose: to give Harry the strength to face the inevitable. Does it real matter whether it was physically real or not? It was the same thing; none of them said anything that we couldn't have deduced anyway, it diminishes nothing if the power of the stone was psychological. We know Remus adored Teddy, and fought for a better world for him, and that there is rest and peace in the afterlife. I really don't think it matters whether what Harry experienced was outside his own head or not.

I disagree that Tonks could not be to him what his friends were, as she was his wife after all so we can assume they were very close.

That is indeed a notion a find incredulous.

I'd like to know the details. It got less attention than anyone else's. Did he die defending Dora Tonks? Was he ambushed?
As you know, I've always felt the Werewolf scene in the movie version of POA was a foreshadowing to Snape's fate. For some reason, I suspect he was in his Werewolf form when he was killed by a Death Eater. Although part of me says J.K. Rowling would say "So and so used his transformation as an excuse to Kill him". Though I think he may have died battling a Death Eater when he died.
As for Dora, I think maybe she arrived after he died and was caught off guard, then killed.
It bothered me we didn't get more details. It was treated like "Remus Lupin was killed, sorry guys!" He deserved more respect than that. I know he probably died putting up a good fight, protecting Tonks or someone else, but I still wanted to see that in writing. Even if he was caught in the crossfire, I'd like to have known.

But it does it really matter. It’s served its purpose: to give Harry the strength to face the inevitable. Does it real matter whether it was physically real or not? It was the same thing; none of them said anything that we couldn't have deduced anyway, it diminishes nothing if the power of the stone was psychological. We know Remus adored Teddy, and fought for a better world for him, and that there is rest and peace in the afterlife. I really don't think it matters whether what Harry experienced was outside his own head or not.


I respect your opinion that the function of the R. Stone doesn't matter to you. However, I am sure you can respect the opinions of others who feel it does matter. For some of us it was not all about Harry because it was also about the return of the beloved character Remus in death from the after life and other characters we longed to see. Many awaited to see and hear from Dumbledore, Sirius, Lily, and James again as well, and like Remus, speaking in first person. So it did matter to some.

A reasonable reading of the R. stone portions of the book supports what Blue said and that was an important feature of Remus' death for some of us, to whom it mattered.

I respect your view that it only mattered in relation to Harry, but in answer to your question (does it really matter?) I would say yes, to some people it did. :)

I'd like to know the details. It got less attention than anyone else's. Did he die defending Dora Tonks? Was he ambushed?
As you know, I've always felt the Werewolf scene in the movie version of POA was a foreshadowing to Snape's fate. For some reason, I suspect he was in his Werewolf form when he was killed by a Death Eater. Although part of me says J.K. Rowling would say "So and so used his transformation as an excuse to Kill him". Though I think he may have died battling a Death Eater when he died.
As for Dora, I think maybe she arrived after he died and was caught off guard, then killed.
It bothered me we didn't get more details. It was treated like "Remus Lupin was killed, sorry guys!" He deserved more respect than that. I know he probably died putting up a good fight, protecting Tonks or someone else, but I still wanted to see that in writing. Even if he was caught in the crossfire, I'd like to have known.

I think Remus was in human form...Fenrir was. So I don't think it was full moon.

I really hated to see both him and Tonks die, I had a sneaking a feeling he might, especially after wormtail had died, that none of the original four would live, like others said and I'm sure it had to take a backseat to the rest of the story, I would have liked to have known how, did they die together one defending the other or what.

I understand why Jo did it as she's explained, the have someone else orphaned and in the same situation Harry was left in at the end of the second great battel against Voldermort, I'm just glad that even though Teddy lost his parents, his story was a little better than Harry's, he didn't have to fight his parent's killer and he grew up with good family around him, ones who loved him and treated him well.

I respect your opinion that the function of the R. Stone doesn't matter to you. However, I am sure you can respect the opinions of others who feel it does matter. For some of us it was not all about Harry because it was also about the return of the beloved character Remus in death from the after life and other characters we longed to see. Many awaited to see and hear from Dumbledore, Sirius, Lily, and James again as well, and like Remus, speaking in first person. So it did matter to some.

I do think it matters, very much, for Harry. In that he saw them and they gave him comfort. I do not however think it is important whether they were actually physically called from the afterlife or not. If some people do think that is important, well then obviously its a from of comfort for them as well. I liked all those characters, but I do not see why it is important, whether or not, they were actually physically called from the afterlife.

I do think it matters, very much, for Harry. In that he saw them and they gave him comfort. I do not however think it is important whether they were actually physically called from the afterlife or not. If some people do think that is important, well then obviously its a from of comfort for them as well. I liked all those characters, but I do not see why it is important, whether or not, they were actually physically called from the afterlife. - .

Now the quote thing is not working uugh. Anyway I was comforted by when remus and sirius came back! I wantede to see Sirius so bad and Remus had just died with no explanation! I really wanted him to come back :) But I think they were real because Harry said they were more real to him than Ginny and those at the castle because he was walking with them to death

I'm sure somebody has said this already, but JKR said in her online chat that Dolohov killed him. I'm so sad, he didn't deserve that. Poor Teddy.... :(

I do think it matters, very much, for Harry. In that he saw them and they gave him comfort. I do not however think it is important whether they were actually physically called from the afterlife or not. If some people do think that is important, well then obviously its a from of comfort for them as well. I liked all those characters, but I do not see why it is important, whether or not, they were actually physically called from the afterlife.

I see what you are saying and I respect your view. I guess some of us were just looking forward to seeing our favorite characters come back; and that they spoke was just fantastic. So from that point of view, it was very cool that they returned and to tell you the truth, all thought of what Harry was going through flew right out of my mind at the sight of my favorite character returning and the description of him young and happy - I'd been waiting years and years for that, so I think you can understand.

Remus' death was just a line and that was fine with me. I really expected that would be it. So when she threw in the part I've been nagging in fourms about, his being young, healthy and happy again, well what can I say? I was ecstatic! I was just as thrilled to see Sirius again as well and I have always loved James and Lily scenes because we have so few.

So all in all, for many of us, it was a lot more than just about Harry. It was about Remus and the rest in the afterlife too - and for those of us (or just me) who loved the character Remus (or Sirius) more than Harry, it was all about him. :)

I see what you are saying and I respect your view. I guess some of us were just looking forward to seeing our favorite characters come back; and that they spoke was just fantastic. So from that point of view, it was very cool that they returned and to tell you the truth, all thought of what Harry was going through flew right out of my mind at the sight of my favorite character returning and the description of him young and happy - I'd been waiting years and years for that, so I think you can understand.

Remus' death was just a line and that was fine with me. I really expected that would be it. So when she threw in the part I've been nagging in fourms about, his being young, healthy and happy again, well what can I say? I was ecstatic! I was just as thrilled to see Sirius again as well and I have always loved James and Lily scenes because we have so few.

So all in all, for many of us, it was a lot more than just about Harry. It was about Remus and the rest in the afterlife too - and for those of us (or just me) who loved the character Remus (or Sirius) more than Harry, it was all about him. :)

Well said, wicked :tu: In response to your question, sweets, it matters to me because it is important that I see Remus, not Harry's mental image of him. It matters to me that what he tells Harry comes from Remus himself, and not what Harry mentally presumes he would say. That is, for me, a most wonderful closure on Remus's life and death. It shows how, in the very very last scene the character is in, he is happy, whole, and peaceful at last. I would personally be very much disappointed if the last time I saw Remus was in a scene of Harry's imagination.

Your view, sweets, is of course respected, and I suppose in this matter, we must agree to disagree :)

Well said, wicked :tu: In response to your question, sweets, it matters to me because it is important that I see Remus, not Harry's mental image of him. It matters to me that what he tells Harry comes from Remus himself, and not what Harry mentally presumes he would say. That is, for me, a most wonderful closure on Remus's life and death. It shows how, in the very very last scene the character is in, he is happy, whole, and peaceful at last. I would personally be very much disappointed if the last time I saw Remus was in a scene of Harry's imagination.

Your view, sweets, is of course respected, and I suppose in this matter, we must agree to disagree :)

I really am not bothered either way. It was Harry's story, and whether Lupin was there or not isn't important to me. As Dumbledore kept banging on about over and over again, you can't raise the dead. Whether the stone, did have physical powers, or not, the people that reappeared, where really just imprints of the soul. Remus was happy before he died, and that is enough for me.

I really am not bothered either way. It was Harry's story, and whether Lupin was there or not isn't important to me. As Dumbledore kept banging on about over and over again, you can't raise the dead. Whether the stone, did have physical powers, or not, the people that reappeared, where really just imprints of the soul. Remus was happy before he died, and that is enough for me.

They didn't come back to life, they came back as more than ghosts but less than totally real in their bodies. But it was really them in spirits in their mind and thinking in their own brains and they came back from the great beyond to talk to him, but not like coming out of a grave. that is what dumbeldore meant you can't get up out of your grave from the dirt in the ground like a zombie. but the spirits come all the time like peaves and headless nicholas and in the STone they come back too in spirit to talk and have feelings in the shadow body. It was not Harrys mind talking for the ghosts or spirits in the stone.

They didn't come back to life, they came back as more than ghosts but less than totally real in their bodies. But it was really them in spirits in their mind and thinking in their own brains and they came back from the great beyond to talk to him, but not like coming out of a grave. that is what dumbeldore meant you can't get up out of your grave from the dirt in the ground like a zombie. but the spirits come all the time like peaves and headless nicholas and in the STone they come back too in spirit to talk and have feelings in the shadow body. It was not Harrys mind talking for the ghosts or spirits in the stone.

We don't know that for sure, and JKR made damn sure that the whole walk through the forest, Dumbledore and all, was very ambiguous. She even has Dumbledore say as much to Harry. If the resurrection stone really did call them from the afterlife, then they were all imprints of the soul, not like ghosts (who are people who refuse to pass over to the other side in JKR's world). It was a representation of what they had been in life.

And, as an extension of not being able to raise the dead. You cannot, in her world, call the dead from the after life in any meaningful way. Dumbledore seemed to view his want to use the resurrection stone, as selfish. So I assume (although Harry's actions were entirely different) that using the stone is construed as morally objectionable and selfish; we should let the death rest . Which I think is a rather potent message from JKR.

We don't know that for sure, and JKR made damn sure that the whole walk through the forest, Dumbledore and all, was very ambiguous. She even has Dumbledore say as much to Harry. If the resurrection stone really did call them from the afterlife, then they were all imprints of the soul, not like ghosts (who are people who refuse to pass over to the other side in JKR's world). It was a representation of what they had been in life.

And, as an extension of not being able to raise the dead. You cannot, in her world, call the dead from the after life in any meaningful way. Dumbledore seemed to view his want to use the resurrection stone, as selfish. So I assume (although Harry's actions were entirely different) that using the stone is construed as morally objectionable and selfish; we should let the death rest . Which I think is a rather potent message from JKR.

Respecting your opinon, but DD specifically contrasts his use of the stone with Harry's saying that his own use would be selfish (he doesn't say morally objectional) merely to bring back those at peace in the afterlife to please himself, but that Harry was a true possessor of the Hallows and his use was worthy because he used it to enable his self-sacrifice. Thus Harry's use was both self-less and although it is not mentioned, it would also be morally justified.

You claim that "You cannot, in her world, call the dead from the after life in any meaningful way." Would you mind sharing the canon you are speaking about?

What I recall DD saying was that death was the 'next great adventure' and that those who are brave move on and those who are not return as ghosts. He also said that those who we love, never truly leave us. (POA). In my opinion, it would not be very reasonable for less than brave ghosts to return with the full capacity of their minds and hang out at Hogwarts, but those who are brave and go on lose their spirits altogther. In my opinion, everyone would return as ghosts because they would have something rather than nothing and more importantly, that contradicts DD's 'next great adventure' statement. So I would have to agree with Blue on this one. For me it was meaningful for Harry's four loved ones to return and it was not in Harry's imagination - I also don't believe DD could have possibly been all in his head because like the 4 who returned, DD told Harry his own feelings, things he could not have guessed. The same was true with the spirits that came from Voldy's wand in GoF (Cedric asking Harry to carry his body and his father giving him instructions). Beyond that, I also accept JRK's understanding that DD was in a state of limbo at Kings Cross and that the four summoned returned to bring him comfort and courage - she did not indicate that Harry had built his own courage up himself though his imagination. (Interview: Dateline NBC).

I respect your opinion if it is different from mine. I believe we will merely have to agree to disagree as your interpretation appears to be quite distinct. :)

Respecting your opinon, but DD specifically contrasts his use of the stone with Harry's saying that his own use would be selfish (he doesn't say morally objectional) merely to bring back those at peace in the afterlife to please himself, but that Harry was a true possessor of the Hallows and his use was worthy because he used it to enable his self-sacrifice. Thus Harry's use was both self-less and although it is not mentioned, it would also be morally justified.

Thats what I said.

You claim that "You cannot, in her world, call the dead from the after life in any meaningful way." Would you mind sharing the canon you are speaking about?

You can't, it was said time and again: stop living in dreams, the dead will never return, it is better for you and them to continue on. Harry may have seen them for a few moments, but it wasn't a complete them and he couldn't have them for ever. They provided him with comfort and courage. Meaningful in an emotional sense, sure, as it gave him untold strenght.

What I recall DD saying was that death was the 'next great adventure' and that those who are brave move on and those who are not return as ghosts. He also said that those who we love, never truly leave us. (POA).

Of course they don't. Those that live in memories are always present; obviously they do leave us, in a physical literal sense. Her view of the afterlife, as presented in the book, is very christian.
And as an extension of that, when we die, we no longer possess our earthly appearance. It is our souls, and its state, that is important. They appeared as they were, because that is how they appeared in life. They were nothing like ghosts, who if we are to believe JKR, have rejected the afterlife, and therefore have not found the peace and serenity that she would have us believe the afterlife provides. If their souls reappeared, they merely assumed an imprint of their 'mortal coil'.

It was a belief she presented with the veil as well. The dead are just beyond sight, always there, and always whispering, ever present in our life’s.

In my opinion, it would not be very reasonable for less than brave ghosts to return with the full capacity of their minds and hang out at Hogwarts, but those who are brave and go on lose their spirits altogther. In my opinion, everyone would return as ghosts because they would have something rather than nothing and more importantly, that contradicts DD's 'next great adventure' statement. So I would have to agree with Blue on this one. For me it was meaningful for Harry's four loved ones to return and it was not in Harry's imagination - I also don't believe DD could have possibly been all in his head because like the 4 who returned, DD told Harry his own feelings, things he could not have guessed. The same was true with the spirits that came from Voldy's wand in GoF (Cedric asking Harry to carry his body and his father giving him instructions). Beyond that, I also accept JRK's understanding that DD was in a state of limbo at Kings Cross and that the four summoned returned to bring him comfort and courage - she did not indicate that Harry had built his own courage up himself though his imagination. (Interview: Dateline NBC).

It can't have been limbo, as that, in a religuous context, refers to all those who die without being baptised, purgurdy, hades etc. It may have been a meeting place between life and death (which is hinted that it is). There is no name for that though. I don't understand the rest sorry.

I don't have a problem with an image of their souls reappearing to Harry. If it was though, they were being called forth, and Harry must have been projected an image of them in the afterlife, or they themselves were trapped in an unknown continium. I don't think they could have returned to the mortal world (as ghosts do), as that never happened in her books.

The resurrection stone allowed one to see the dead for a short time, to provide Harry with courage and comfort. If we are to believe Dumbledore however, he said that to call the dead, because of one's own wants, was selfish. Hence my point, Harry, in everyway imaginable, needed them at that moment. However, if you or I used the stone to see our dead loved ones, it would be selfish, as we should let them rest.

Like I said, it doesn't matter to me, how on earth they came to be there. They were there for Harry and gave him courage and support. That is what is most important I think.

Thats what I said.



You can't, it was said time and again: stop living in dreams, the dead will never return, it is better for you and them to continue on. Harry may have seen them for a few moments, but it wasn't a complete them and he couldn't have them for ever. They provided him with comfort and courage. Meaningful in an emotional sense, sure, as it gave him untold strenght.



Of course they don't. Those that live in memories are always present; obviously they do leave us, in a physical literal sense. Her view of the afterlife, as presented in the book, is very christian.
And as an extension of that, when we die, we no longer possess our earthly appearance. It is our souls, and its state, that is important. They appeared as they were, because that is how they appeared in life. They were nothing like ghosts, who if we are to believe JKR, have rejected the afterlife, and therefore have not found the peace and serenity that she would have us believe the afterlife provides. If their souls reappeared, they merely assumed an imprint of their 'mortal coil'.

It was a belief she presented with the veil as well. The dead are just beyond sight, always there, and always whispering, ever present in our life’s.



It can't have been limbo, as that, in a religuous context, refers to all those who die without being baptised, purgurdy, hades etc. It may have been a meeting place between life and death (which is hinted that it is). There is no name for that though. I don't understand the rest sorry.

I don't have a problem with an image of their souls reappearing to Harry. If it was though, they were being called forth, and Harry must have been projected an image of them in the afterlife, or they themselves were trapped in an unknown continium. I don't think they could have returned to the mortal world (as ghosts do), as that never happened in her books.

The resurrection stone allowed one to see the dead for a short time, to provide Harry with courage and comfort. If we are to believe Dumbledore however, he said that to call the dead, because of one's own wants, was selfish. Hence my point, Harry, in everyway imaginable, needed them at that moment. However, if you or I used the stone to see our dead loved ones, it would be selfish, as we should let them rest.

Like I said, it doesn't matter to me, how on earth they came to be there. They were there for Harry and gave him courage and support. That is what is most important I think.

I see what you are saying. Actually "limbo" is the word JKR used. Although she did add that she really intended to leave it up to readers as to where DD was. Mind she was not talking about the R. Stone.

But you are right and I agree, the important part is that Remus, was able to be there for Harry in his time of need to offer courage, love and comfort with Sirius and his parents. :)

Lupin has always been my favourite character, and I knew, one day that JKR would kill him off as he never gets the attention or happiness he deserves. He does so much that goes unrecognised, he deserved happiness. I was SO angry with JKR after she killed him off. Out of anybody I think he has had one of the worst lives and he never moans about it. I feel he needed a proper send off but hey.. just mention him name and that he is dead, one line. Thats nice. Grr.
And then some people are saying they didnt like Remus in the 7th book because he got angry, but hey, Harry gets angry when he cant take it anymore, so I think Lupin deserved to get angry atleast once. I dont blame him for walking away from Tonks, he thought the baby deserved much better. He always lacked the confidence and thought no one would love him and always wondered why. He just needed a confidence boost
Blah, to be honest, I love Lupin so much and it actually has spoilt the series for me. I know it sounds stupid but I really did love Lupin, and there was no point to his death. No point at all. Id rather Harry die than Lupin

It does seem a little understated, one line without any of the details. And Tonks as well. To be honest, their deaths seem rather forced, contrived to leave an orphan child for Harry to play stepfather with, at least in part because of the brevity of the treatment. There's little sense of poetic justice. And yet . . .

Harry makes such a big deal about how Remus's responsibility is to be with his child. Was that all smoke and mirrors, to keep from having to explain DD's mission to someone outside the trusted three? Or are we to take something from it? Is there an implication that Remus and Tonks should not have participated in the Battle, but remained at the side of their son?

Was this the difficulty of tying up loose ends and having so many characters to deal with, that some were shuffled off quickly or is there some kind of purpose/meaning/significance in it?

It does seem a little understated, one line without any of the details. And Tonks as well. To be honest, their deaths seem rather forced, contrived to leave an orphan child for Harry to play stepfather with, at least in part because of the brevity of the treatment. There's little sense of poetic justice. And yet . . .

Harry makes such a big deal about how Remus's responsibility is to be with his child. Was that all smoke and mirrors, to keep from having to explain DD's mission to someone outside the trusted three? Or are we to take something from it? Is there an implication that Remus and Tonks should not have participated in the Battle, but remained at the side of their son?

Was this the difficulty of tying up loose ends and having so many characters to deal with, that some were shuffled off quickly or is there some kind of purpose/meaning/significance in it?

I believe all of the earlier scenes between Harry and Remus in DH were to show they had grown closer - Harry called him Remus, was willing to speak to him as he might a friend (note the similarity between Ron/Harry argument at camp), rather than as a professor (i.e., Harry wouldn't have that manner of conversation with Flitwick). That was done overtly to help make the ending more clear where they show love for one another - granting of godfather/call back with ressurection stone - otherwise those those events wouldn't really make sense imo. They grew closer in OOTP + HBP as well, but it wasn't shown very clearly so I think that is why it done more forcefully in DH. That is, confrontations of that sort mean you either hate the person or you care a lot.

I don't think the implication was that Remus and Tonks were not to have participated in the battle. Mr. & Mrs. Weasley did and I imagine other wizard couples as well (when the huge force of people came at the end to help). I think the message of them going into battle is one we heard from Sirius and DD before: Some things are worth dying for - giving your son a happier world to live in, the cause, helping Harry - was worth it.

I think Remus' death, like all of the deaths reflected his character - calm and tranquil. And Tonks at the end of her life was all about Lupin, so she lay at his side in death, also tranquil as if sleeping. :)

I personally was disappointed with Remus' death in DH. Don't get me wrong, I am glad that he died in battle; however, I am upset with the way it was handled. Remus was the last of the Mauraders, he was an important character in the series and he was important to Harry. In light of this, I was surprised to have his death handled so poorly and with such indifference. He was mentioned almost as an afterthought, "Oh, yes and here are Remus and Tonks among the dead."

For a character of this magnitude I would have liked to have at least seen how he died and who killed him and how hard he fought. I thought that Remus deserved that much.

Good point about the Marauders - well the true ones - they all died battling Voldy/DE's. I really don't think that they would have wanted to go any other way - including Moony. :)

.Out of anybody I think he has had one of the worst lives and he never moans about it. I feel he needed a proper send off but hey.. just mention him name and that he is dead, one line.

I agree that he got rather short shrift after he was so wonderful in POA and a voice of sanity when he appeared in OOTP.

It also struck me odd in DH that we are to take it that Harry was being "noble" when he deserted Ginny to protect her, but Lupin was being "cowardly" when he tried to protect Tonks by avoiding marriage and when he later viewed the marriage as a mistake. In that light, Harry's high degree of indignation seemed a bit overstrained to me.

Possibly, in POA JKR made us like him more than she intended?

I agree that he got rather short shrift after he was so wonderful in POA and a voice of sanity when he appeared in OOTP.

It also struck me odd in DH that we are to take it that Harry was being "noble" when he deserted Ginny to protect her, but Lupin was being "cowardly" when he tried to protect Tonks by avoiding marriage and when he later viewed the marriage as a mistake. In that light, Harry's high degree of indignation seemed a bit overstrained to me.

Possibly, in POA JKR made us like him more than she intended?

I don't think that was JKR's purpose - she stated in interview that she loved the character of Remus many times, both during and following the series. I believe she was merely setting up Remus' furry little problem to finally be resolved. It was something that werewolf fans and Remus fans alike had wondered about since POA - would he ever be accepted or in the alternative adjust to society? So she went with adjustment in having him accept his lot and willingly return to his family, happy about the birth and his marriage in the end.

Remus admitted that when it came to his furry little problem he was wont to act cowardly, so that too was part of the issue that JKR wanted to resolve. To give Harry credit, he admitted that he'd gone overboard and should not have said all of the things he did afterward. But I think JKR wanted us to understand both that Remus and Harry were closer (and Harry felt he could speak to Remus in that way) and also that Harry was had grown quicker to anger in this book than in the others. She spoke about Harry's increased feelings of anger in an interview.

I don't see Remus' reaction as out of character, although when I first read it I did. This was a huge problem for him, the biggest in his life; thinking on it now, it would have been unrealistic for him to have simply taken the whole thing in stride after spending 30 years worrying the matter to death imo. :)

I believe that was all necessary so that upon Remus' death we would understand he and Harry were closer than we may have believed in the other books and understand why he asked him back to the reunion scene once he'd died - and why Remus would have asked Harry to be godfather.

Still, Remus' death was one of the most gentle and calm in the book as written. Because I believe JKR wrote the deaths 'in character', I believe that she saw his overall character as tranquil, even if he could respond hotly from time to time.

Lupin has always been my favourite character, and I knew, one day that JKR would kill him off as he never gets the attention or happiness he deserves. He does so much that goes unrecognised, he deserved happiness. I was SO angry with JKR after she killed him off. Out of anybody I think he has had one of the worst lives and he never moans about it. I feel he needed a proper send off but hey.. just mention him name and that he is dead, one line. Thats nice. Grr.
And then some people are saying they didnt like Remus in the 7th book because he got angry, but hey, Harry gets angry when he cant take it anymore, so I think Lupin deserved to get angry atleast once. I dont blame him for walking away from Tonks, he thought the baby deserved much better. He always lacked the confidence and thought no one would love him and always wondered why. He just needed a confidence boost
Blah, to be honest, I love Lupin so much and it actually has spoilt the series for me. I know it sounds stupid but I really did love Lupin, and there was no point to his death. No point at all. Id rather Harry die than Lupin


I agree with you, especially about the part about the people who hated Remus after the seventh book because he got angry. He, of all people, has the most right to get angry. Everyone's OK with Harry ranting and yelling, but why not Remus? It's as if he's not allowed to have feelings....

Remus has been my favorite character since the very first time I read Prisoner of Azkaban. I wasn't expecting him to die, especially when Teddy was born and then when I read that sentence about him and Tonks combined with Fred, I just started sobbing. I must say that this is the hardest I've ever cried at a book or movie.

I found Remus's death a bit pathetic, really. Maybe pathetic is not a good word....but it's just that he was such a great character I was in awe that he didn't get a heroic, dramatic death scene. I personally thought it was very underplayed and that, should she had decided to kill him at all, he deserved something more tragic and heroic than I felt it actually was.

We have a dramatic death (though we don't see it, we know the it was definately a heroic death for James, the same for Sirius, I thought it was a bit of a let down that Lupin's is completely non-existant. All we do know is that Lupin was last dueling with Dolov (SP?) and that's it. I know it was time for the kids or "the next generation" to step up. But it just seemed a shame that Lupin didn't get the same kind of farewell. :(

I think a dramatic and battling death would have been out of line with the character deaths I feel JKR was going for. We imagine he battled heroically, dramatically and with talent (as he did at some points in the series). But in life he was generally serene with only occassional outbursts of emotion heightened by dramatic events. I really believe JRK was trying to stick with characterizations when she effectuated the deaths. Remus was a peaceful man and thus he received a peaceful death. In comparison, Sirius was a bit more reckless and his wonderful barking laughter defined him. His death was characteristic of that imo. Same with Fred - the ultimate prankster and in death he went with the ghost of his last laugh still etched upon his face.

So in the end I thought Remus' death was a quite powerful statement of his life. A peaceful man who had struggled with being a werewolf for too many years and found true peace of mind, matching his tranquil personality, by the time of his death.

Now your just making me cry all over again wickedboy:upset:

Now your just making me cry all over again wickedboy:upset:

No don't cry. It all ended on a happy note for Remus. He got to move on to the great adventure of the afterlife and JKR even showed us his happiness in the reunion scene. He was young, healthy and truly happy, finally, and reunited with his friends and wife. They all could watch Harry and Teddy, their loved ones, growing up to be happy and well-adjusted individuals - while having the time of their lives up there. So we can be happy for Remus. :)

:) Thanks for the cheer up. :D

In a way I guess, it was a bit like in a real life war. You all go to battle and in the chaos, you loose sight of comrades and only find out after your away from the battlefield of your casualties.

Still....

No don't cry. It all ended on a happy note for Remus. He got to move on to the great adventure of the afterlife and JKR even showed us his happiness in the reunion scene. He was young, healthy and truly happy, finally, and reunited with his friends and wife. They all could watch Harry and Teddy, their loved ones, growing up to be happy and well-adjusted individuals - while having the time of their lives up there. So we can be happy for Remus.:)

Well said :clap::)

I found Remus's death a bit pathetic, really. Maybe pathetic is not a good word....but it's just that he was such a great character I was in awe that he didn't get a heroic, dramatic death scene. I personally thought it was very underplayed and that, should she had decided to kill him at all, he deserved something more tragic and heroic than I felt it actually was.

Yeah, I wish there would've been some chapter called "The Last Maurader" or something that was Remus's death. I have felt that Remus was closer to Harry than Sirius, and I think if we (being the readers and Harry) would've seen his death, it would have been more emotional. It would've had more of an effect, especially with Tonks' dying and poor Teddy being an orphan

I really wanted Remus to be the Maurader who lived the war out :(

I really wanted Remus to be the Maurader who lived the war out
I know I did too...but I really like what WWB has to say about it and in the end I am happy that the three of them were together again.

I really wanted Remus to be the Maurader who lived the war out :(

Me too! Couldn't at least one Marauder live? ok, maybe not Peter, but still! I think Remus was the most pointless death, and i also mean pointless in the way that we weren't even allowed to experience his death. We were just told in one sentence that he died. When i read that i was like, "what?"

Me too! Couldn't at least one Marauder live? ok, maybe not Peter, but still! I think Remus was the most pointless death, and i also mean pointless in the way that we weren't even allowed to experience his death. We were just told in one sentence that he died. When i read that i was like, "what?"
I definately understand where you are coming from, because I felt that way at first too. But, for us to experiance his death that means that Harry would have to had experiance his death, which IMO would have been aweful for him. There was so many things that he had to do at that point and seeing another person die on top of all the other, may have led to him loosing his head a bit. We know that Dolohov killed Remus because Jo told us in her interview after the book was released.

I am glad we didn't see his death, that would have been much more upsetting to me. We found out he died and then we see him in the afterlife...happy with his friends. I personally am okay with this now. Although, I wasn't at first because I agree I too wanted at least one Marauder to see the fall of Voldy.

Well, I think that he went out of this life fighting and trying to save Tonks.

when i read about him lying there looking like he was sleeping i believed for a sec that he was sleeping :(. i love remus he was one of my favorite characters, he and tonks were a great couple, and everyone knew even before books six. im just sad that we didnt get to see his death, but i think we were made up for it by seeing him with james, sirius, and lily, his three dearest friends (aside from tonks and teddy of course). it was great to see him one last time.

as for being angry at him, i wasn't really angry at him for being angry at harry, i did think harry was being kind of harsh on him, especially calling him a coward. i think he was being a coward, but harry should have turned it around and said that he would be especially brave if he stayed home with tonks and looked after her. but of course, harry is not known for doing things like that (as much as we love him) and they were all under a tad bit of stress. a question--was he talking about leaving tonks and in leaving her or just going off with them and having her stay home. it is kind of confusing.

anyway, i think that his death was right up there with fred's they were both horrible.after all he's been through, he finally finds love and then he has to die. it's pretty awful. :(

It was a pity he died. He was always my second favorite teacher (after Hagrid). Though I kind of predicted it when he told Harry that he was to be Teddy's godfather.

Altohugh I was in shock rather than sad, I felt grateful for him at the end, when we see him stress free, younger and with the people who cared so much for him (his wife, the marauders and Lily).

I honestly wasn't that torn up when Lupin died. I know, that's horrible and heartless, but I couldn' help but feel kind of happy for him as I saw him content with his best friends again.

If only he hadn't left a baby behind...poor Teddy:upset:

-LilyPod

when i read about him lying there looking like he was sleeping i believed for a sec that he was sleeping :(. i love remus he was one of my favorite characters, he and tonks were a great couple, and everyone knew even before books six. im just sad that we didnt get to see his death, but i think we were made up for it by seeing him with james, sirius, and lily, his three dearest friends (aside from tonks and teddy of course). it was great to see him one last time.

as for being angry at him, i wasn't really angry at him for being angry at harry, i did think harry was being kind of harsh on him, especially calling him a coward. i think he was being a coward, but harry should have turned it around and said that he would be especially brave if he stayed home with tonks and looked after her. but of course, harry is not known for doing things like that (as much as we love him) and they were all under a tad bit of stress. a question--was he talking about leaving tonks and in leaving her or just going off with them and having her stay home. it is kind of confusing.

anyway, i think that his death was right up there with fred's they were both horrible.after all he's been through, he finally finds love and then he has to die. it's pretty awful. :(

I agree that Harry was a bit harsh, but he truly did care about Remus and afterward he agreed that he had gone overboard and should not have said the things he did. I think it was great that Harry was inspired by Remus' death (together with Fred and Tonks) in his decision to take that final walk toward the forest (where he was further encouraged by Remus, his parents and Sirius). It did give meaning to Remus' death (and the others) beyond the fact that it was 'war' and people 'die'. :)

I'm kind of glad he died. I want him to be back with his friends. And even though I don't believe in the afterlife in the real world, we know there's one in HP, so it's not pointless.

I was also happy because he seemed so OOC in this book. And I did not like that he and Tonks got married. How did he afford a ring? He can't even get a job and - eh, I'm off on a tangent.

I thought it awful how Lupin and Tonks died together, like the end of a tragic love story. They had just gotten married and had a baby! Then they were swiped? :grumble: ...
Lupin should have lived so that he could spend a happy life with his wife and son. After all, Lupin's life had been very difficult (being a werewolf and all) so he deserved a break, he deserved a new chapter in his life that was happier. Do you think Tonks would have provided for family?...

I was reading that part of the book so fast that I had to re-read the part about Remus dying three times before I realised he was dead. At first I was like, "what, how can they be sleeping at this time?!" And then it sank in... and I realised he wasn't sleeping, I moaned and cried.

I just wish he could have lived, or at least, we could have seen how he died, or seen his funeral, or SOMETHING!

I was reading that part of the book so fast that I had to re-read the part about Remus dying three times before I realised he was dead. At first I was like, "what, how can they be sleeping at this time?!" And then it sank in... and I realised he wasn't sleeping, I moaned and cried.

I just wish he could have lived, or at least, we could have seen how he died, or seen his funeral, or SOMETHING!

http://www.wpclipart.com/smiley/smiley_set_1/.cache/smiley_2_thumbs_up.png

Lupin has always been my favorite character, and I never wanted JK to kill him off. I was hoping he would be the marauder who lives. I kind of figured he was going to die, though. I think it was just one of those things that has to happen. This might not make much sense, but I think Lupin, Sirius, and James were meant to be together. They were together in life, and now they're together in death.

If I'd been holding anything other than my pristine copy of Deathly Hallows, I would have thrown it across the room at that part. I was sooo angry! Lupin's always been my favorite character, but his death wasn't even a tear-jerker for me. It reads like an afterthought, imo. Cross out a few lines and it might never have happened!

I can see what people mean when they say his death is somewhat poetic; all the Marauders together again. I just never thought that was as compelling as having at least one of them come out the war alive. They all fought so hard to make the world a better place, and I wish they'd gotten to enjoy it a bit. She'd already set Lupin up as a damaged individual who was finally able to overcome his past and heal. Killing him off like that cut short the trajectory of his character.:no:

I'm obviously biased, but I really don't feel like his death even fits in with the story. It took me out of the moment rather than furthering my emotional response to it. It was immediately apparent that he and Tonks were the two she hadn't planned to kill. It stuck out like a sore thumb to me.

I adore the series, but this is one of two parts that really drove me up a wall (the other being Grawp in OotP, but that's another story). Gah!

I liked Lupin a lot until Jo revealed that he was supported by James and then I wondered why he never came to meet Harry even once in the 10 years he had been with the Dursleys and later, two years when he was at Hogwarts, if he could not meet with Harry in the Dursleys home.

My opinion of him slipped slightly but I still liked him a lot. A real lot.

And I felt sad he died so quickly and like all the other deaths, this one too happened as a side note as it were. *sad*

If I'd been holding anything other than my pristine copy of Deathly Hallows, I would have thrown it across the room at that part. I was sooo angry! Lupin's always been my favorite character, but his death wasn't even a tear-jerker for me. It reads like an afterthought, imo. Cross out a few lines and it might never have happened!

I can see what people mean when they say his death is somewhat poetic; all the Marauders together again. I just never thought that was as compelling as having at least one of them come out the war alive. They all fought so hard to make the world a better place, and I wish they'd gotten to enjoy it a bit. She'd already set Lupin up as a damaged individual who was finally able to overcome his past and heal. Killing him off like that cut short the trajectory of his character.:no:

I'm obviously biased, but I really don't feel like his death even fits in with the story. It took me out of the moment rather than furthering my emotional response to it. It was immediately apparent that he and Tonks were the two she hadn't planned to kill. It stuck out like a sore thumb to me.


I actually quite like the reality of it. Not being able to pick up clues about who's going to die. It makes it more real.

I liked Lupin a lot until Jo revealed that he was supported by James and then I wondered why he never came to meet Harry even once in the 10 years he had been with the Dursleys and later, two years when he was at Hogwarts, if he could not meet with Harry in the Dursleys home.

My opinion of him slipped slightly but I still liked him a lot. A real lot.



I wondered that too, but i can only assume it was on Dumbledore's orders.

posted by High_Lion
I wondered that too, but i can only assume it was on Dumbledore's orders.

On Dumbledore's orders the first ten years is okay, but he does not meet Harry in Hogearts in Harry's first and second year too. And even in third year, it is only at the ned of thrid year, that he reveals that he is a very close friend of James.

I felt let down a tiny bit.

On Dumbledore's orders the first ten years is okay, but he does not meet Harry in Hogearts in Harry's first and second year too. And even in third year, it is only at the ned of thrid year, that he reveals that he is a very close friend of James.

I felt let down a tiny bit.

I agree.
I think when Dumbledore reveals to Harry in DH, about him caring for him too much and not wanting to tell him the whole truth.

I cried so hard when I read that part.

Somehow I knew it was coming though. It was almost as if J.K. Rowling set it up to be like Harry's life. You know, the whole both his parents died in a wizarding fight. I wouldn't actually be surprised if Voldemort was the one who killed them.

At least this time harry was there for poor Teddy.

I think, to go along with the flow, that the reason that Lupin didn't come to Harry's aid until later on was that either he didn't want Harry to find out about his "furry little problem" and get hurt or maybe he was too upset about Jame's death.

That's just my opinion though.

I cried so hard when I read that part.

Somehow I knew it was coming though. It was almost as if J.K. Rowling set it up to be like Harry's life. You know, the whole both his parents died in a wizarding fight. I wouldn't actually be surprised if Voldemort was the one who killed them.

At least this time harry was there for poor Teddy.

Yes, I think JKR did kill off both Lupin and Tonks and leave Teddy an orphan so that it would mirror Harry's life. JKR has explained that she often kills off parents to show how evil and ruthless Voldemort and his followers are. Here are her exact words:

“I wanted to kill parents,” Rowling said, quickly admitting how horrible that sounds.

Throughout the books, the death of James and Lilly Potter is echoed in the deaths of Sirius, Dumbledore and Lupin, all of Harry’s father-figures in order to “show the absolute evil of what Voldemort’s doing.”

The death of Lupin and Tonks in the Battle of Hogwarts serves to create a new orphan, their son Teddy.

“I think one of the most devastating things about war is the children left behind,” Rowling said. “As happened in the first war when Harry's left behind, I wanted us to see another child left behind. And it made it very poignant that it was their newborn son.”

I have also posted that link on the Nymphadora Tonk's Death (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=107982&page=13) thread. I think this source has a good explanation from JKR about why she killed off both of Teddy's parents.

I was very sad when Lupin died, but I was almost expecting it for some reason. It just seemed to me as if there ws no way he would survive the war. :sad: I don't know why I felt that way, though...

I think that Lupin's death was very noble and brave. He died fighting against evil valiently, doing his best to help bring down LV.

I didn't cry. I was so mad at Jo for killing Remus. I'm not the kind who gets caught up emotionally with other people's characters, but Remus was the only one in the whole series whom I could identify it emotionally, physically, and mentally. I hated how she painted Remus like she did during the chapter "The Bribe". And I almost hit the roof when he died. Oh well. Note to self: Never involve oneself emotionally with fictional charatcers. End of my rants. Hope I didn't offend anyone.

On Dumbledore's orders the first ten years is okay, but he does not meet Harry in Hogearts in Harry's first and second year too. And even in third year, it is only at the ned of thrid year, that he reveals that he is a very close friend of James.

I felt let down a tiny bit.


I think that Lupin didn't reveal that he was a close friend of James to Harry because he wanted Harry to know him on his own terms, not just because James was one of his best friends at school. It could have really blurred the boundaries between student and teacher.
I was upset when Remus and Tonks died. They're two of my favorite characters (as evidenced by my sig) but i do like how poetic it is when Remus returns with James, Lily and Sirius in "the forest again." When I read that, it just made it seem all right, because he was happy in the afterlife.

I think I knew as soon as Harry was made godfather to Teddy that Lupin and Tonks were finished.Oh the irony..

I think I knew as soon as Harry was made godfather to Teddy that Lupin and Tonks were finished.Oh the irony..

Me too!

I think it is rather tragic the way Harry doesn't actually see them die. He kind of just finds them lying in a pile with all the other dead bodies.

Personally I wouldn't want to find out that my relative or friend died by seeing them lying in a pile with other dead bodies.

Me too!

I think it is rather tragic the way Harry doesn't actually see them die. He kind of just finds them lying in a pile with all the other dead bodies.

Personally I wouldn't want to find out that my relative or friend died by seeing them lying in a pile with other dead bodies.
Well, they weren't actually in a pile, the were lined up in a row on the floor of the Great Hall, but you got the idea :). I agree, it is tragic that all Harry gets to see is their dead bodies...:sad:

I think it is rather tragic the way Harry doesn't actually see them die. He kind of just finds them lying in a pile with all the other dead bodies.

Personally I wouldn't want to find out that my relative or friend died by seeing them lying in a pile with other dead bodies.


I agree, although I think it makes it more realistic. The death of Remus and Tonks really made me sad. I mean just after they had their son. So heart wrenching. I understand that it was necessary but it still was hard to swallow. I was in tears reading the book and that actually made me sob. I was a mess.

I know this is completly off topic... sort of, but I wonder who killed Remus and Tonks?

At first I thought maybe they died the same way as Fred you know in a magical blast of some sort (also a tragic death :upset: ), but then again it also seems possible that any wizard or witch could have killed them.

I don't recall reading any part about Tonks or Remus having any wounds or such so I'm guessing they died because of a spell. Most likely the death spell.

That makes it possible for any witch or wizard on the evil/dark side to have murdered the two.

I also bet (I believe this has been said before) that Tonks died trying to save Remus (or the other way around) seeing as she ran off to find him when Harry said he didn't know where he was.

That, I find, is tragicly romantic. In a really sad, depressing and almost twisted kind of way.


http://www.2flashgames.com/2fgkjn134kjlh1cfn81vc34/flash/f-Funny-Cat-3539.jpg

....

I know this is completly off topic... sort of, but I wonder who killed Remus and Tonks?

At first I thought maybe they died the same way as Fred you know in a magical blast of some sort (also a tragic death :upset: ), but then again it also seems possible that any wizard or witch could have killed them.

I don't recall reading any part about Tonks or Remus having any wounds or such so I'm guessing they died because of a spell. Most likely the death spell.

That makes it possible for any witch or wizard on the evil/dark side to have murdered the two.

I also bet (I believe this has been said before) that Tonks died trying to save Remus (or the other way around) seeing as she ran off to find him when Harry said he didn't know where he was.

That, I find, is tragicly romantic. In a really sad, depressing and almost twisted kind of way.


http://www.2flashgames.com/2fgkjn134kjlh1cfn81vc34/flash/f-Funny-Cat-3539.jpg

....

I'm pretty sure JKR said Dolohov killed Lupin and Bellatrix finally killed Tonks.

I'm pretty sure JKR said Dolohov killed Lupin and Bellatrix finally killed Tonks.

Oh. Thanks.

Man... I really got to read JKR's website. :blush:

he was one of my favorite teacher at Hogwarts and of course one of my most loved Marauder, its just so sad reading he died after his son is born. I thought he'd be the last living Marauder...

His death didn't get the justice it deserved he was a main character and I think he should have got something better than just one sentence

His death didn't get the justice it deserved he was a main character and I think he should have got something better than just one sentence

I got the feeling that it was a way to make the battle more realistic. Harry didn't have time to see what was happening to everyone, and he had a lot of loved ones fighting alongside him. Lupin was fighting out on the grounds while Harry was mostly in the castle, searching for the Horcrux. I feel like it would have been unrealistic for him to walk out on the grounds just to see Lupin die. I feel like it also would have taken Harry's mind of searcing for the Horcruxes completely if he had had to see Fred and Lupin die. It was much more important for him to destroy the horcruxes at that point, and actually witnessing another loved one die would have, I feel, made him abandon his mission and go full fledged into battle.

hi, this is 4_4hugo4_4's friend ducky....._? well hi there, i read all the harry potter books aswell..and i loved them all!!!!!!!
(((just wanted to lets you guys know that)))
byebyes now.

haaai again.....




well bye now

hi again.....




well bye now

I got the feeling that it was a way to make the battle more realistic. Harry didn't have time to see what was happening to everyone, and he had a lot of loved ones fighting alongside him. Lupin was fighting out on the grounds while Harry was mostly in the castle, searching for the Horcrux. I feel like it would have been unrealistic for him to walk out on the grounds just to see Lupin die. I feel like it also would have taken Harry's mind of searcing for the Horcruxes completely if he had had to see Fred and Lupin die. It was much more important for him to destroy the horcruxes at that point, and actually witnessing another loved one die would have, I feel, made him abandon his mission and go full fledged into battle.

Harry did see Fred die...

Anyway, I have to say I never really thought of it this way. I guess it does make sense that if Lupin dies, Harry wasn't there to see it...but I'm more or less in denial about the whole thing! I think that his and Tonks' death was the most shocking for me in the entire book, including everything that happened to Snape (and I'm a MAJOR Snape fan...way more than I'm a Lupin fan!) I guess that I always saw Snape's death coming, so although I was really sad when he died, I wasn't surprised...but Lupin's death was so completely pointless!! I really don't like the way she did it. I think that Lupin is a major character and he deserved a better ending than 'oh by the way, Lupin's dead, but who cares, let's move on!'. Sure, your argument of Harry not being there to see it made sense, but surely that doesn't mean that no attention has to be paid to it at all. She could have included an account from someone who did see it (not at that moment of course, but later, after the battle was over), or she could have made Harry be at least a bit more shocked than he was! Or, what would have been even better, she could have let Lupin live! Because there was no sense in his death at all, in my opinion. If he died some heroic death by protecting someone or something, that would have worked, then his death would have had a purpose. I'm not saying that every death SHOULD have a purpose, many people die when they don't deserve it, but it's not like she 'did' anything with his death...he could have lived and the plot would have been exactly the same!
I don't agree with JKR's statement about this whole thing either. She said in some interview that she wanted 'parents' to die. This would have been Arthur in OotP, but she wasn't able to actually kill him because she loves him too much. But she still wanted parents to die, so that she could show the evilness of Voldemort and the way in which his reign destroys families...so I suppose that that was the purpose of making Lupin and Tonks die in the book, but why not make that a bit more clearer then?? I mean, now they just die, and it doesn't become clear at all that this is what JKR wanted to achieve, she had to say that in an additional interview. And besides, why do it like this, in such a random, quick, and undetailed way? It doesn't have any depth, and it doesn't add anything either...because don't the entire SERIES already show this?! Harry's family got torn apart because of Voldemort, Harry had to be raised by his closest living relatives, Harry never had the chance of getting to know his parents...she just spent 7 books writing about that, and now she wants to show that again, by including one vaguely mentioned death?! What is the added value of that?!
My point is, if she wanted to make this clear, she should have done something more with their deaths than just mentioning them in a sentence and then move on. That doesn't make the entire purpose clear at all! OR she should have let them live, and finally give Remus a chance to live a happy life, because he deserves it so! But the way she did it now, to me, really made no sense at all, and it's one of the things I disliked most about this book! (Not that I dislike it, I think it's great! But I think this is actually the one thing that I disliked most about the entire book! This and the epilogue, of course, which was rather sickeningly sweet in my opinion! And those names were horrible!)

Anyway.../rant! :p

I have to say I agree with Almare!

I think that Lupin became a major character in the last book, and so killing him off should have had some effect on the plot rather than being simply to bump up the death toll and to make a point.

Out of all of the characters in the series, I believe that Lupin is one of the ones that deserved a "happily-ever-after" the most...though saying that, I am a MASSIVE Lupin fan and am at least glad that he did get quite a big role in DH!

I specifically remember finishing the book and thinking "excuse me...all is NOT well!" :lol:

Harry did see Fred die...


I didn't mean that he didn't see fred die, I just thought it would be unrealistic if harry just happened to see TWO people he was really close to die, given that he was still looking for horcruxes at that point and not openly battling. I pretty sure Fred was the only person Harry actually saw die in the first battle.

I don't think it really matters whether Harry seeing Lupin's death would have been realistic. I thought that she did present war really well, and that the battle was fantastic. Though I do think that as it's a book - particularly a fantasy book - that it's unusual for one of the main characters to just disappear from the story without plot or reason, and only a casual sentence to state that he's dead.

If even Hedwig and Dobby can have a decent send-off, why not Lupin? :lol:

(this is a bit off-topic, but the only thing I found unrealistic about the battle was that even though loads of barely of-age witches and wizards were fighting on the good side, why are the only "goodies" we know of that die (not counting colin) two ex-defence teachers, an auror, and a not TOO recently of-age member of the order? :lol: surely they were 4 of the best equipped people there!)

I really adore the picture in your signature, by the way!!!

Hello! (sorry about my last post... my friend is a bit odd)

(this is a bit off-topic, but the only thing I found unrealistic about the battle was that even though loads of barely of-age witches and wizards were fighting on the good side, why are the only "goodies" we know of that die (not counting colin) two ex-defence teachers, an auror, and a not TOO recently of-age member of the order? surely they were 4 of the best equipped people there!)

I hadn't noticed that! That is really ironic! Maybe it's because the younger kids were to quick or that the older wizards and witches were targeted? Well whatever the reason I am glad that some of the coolest kid wizards/witches were spared in the fight.

Well, I know this sounds harsh but I kind of feel like JK Rowling did a good thing by killing Lupin. I mean it's not that I wanted to see him die or anything like that, it's just the book probably wouldn't feel the same to me if Lupin and Tonks both walked away from the fight unscathed.

Again, JK Rowling wanted to leave Harry without any father figures. If Lupin survived Harry probably would have gone off to live with him and the end result wouldn't quite work as well.

Or so I believe.


By the way I agree with Almare about the epilouge.. horrible choices for names! Well, at least Albus Severus was... and I think 'Lilly Luna' is a tad to much. Seriously though....

almare, one of the things that JKR did do is show the randomness of war; people die. people that we love and care about, that have had an impact in our lives. and we don't always get to see it happen. what was good was we got to see a continuation of sorts with Teddy; the flip side happened to him as opposed to what happened to Harry. Harry was left with family that hated him and barely cared for him; Teddy was left with family that loved him and cared for him. And we can be sure that Harry, Hermione, Ron et al let Teddy know that his parents were amazing.

Being the last of the marauders, I see the point Remus' death may have had to the story, but I think it came a little too late.

He wasn't a major character, but I still don't think he was minor enough to be used as another body to add to the death count.

I don't see the point of killing anyone important off just pages from the end. And if the reason is to present the realities of war, why not show the impact that Remus and Tonks' deaths had? After seven books' worth of pitying Harry for being an orphan, just to finish "both of Teddy's parents died, and he lived happily ever after" seems like a bit of a contradiction to me :lol:

I'll confess, I AM a huge fan of Remus...but I just wish he'd been given a bit of a better ending! If he had to die, I would've liked to see it, at least...and to cap it all, Dolohov is a rubbish deatheater :lol:

Dolohov killed Lupin and Bellatrix killed Tonks.

I have to say I agree with Almare!

I think that Lupin became a major character in the last book, and so killing him off should have had some effect on the plot rather than being simply to bump up the death toll and to make a point.

Out of all of the characters in the series, I believe that Lupin is one of the ones that deserved a "happily-ever-after" the most...though saying that, I am a MASSIVE Lupin fan and am at least glad that he did get quite a big role in DH!

I specifically remember finishing the book and thinking "excuse me...all is NOT well!" :lol:

All is definately not well!

Hi! I've just come back on site after loooonnnggg break. I am still in complete denial about Lupin's death and think the way he died was supremely disrespectful to him. Nothing in the last two books, in regards to Remus, made sense to me - he seemed to be acting out of character. He disliked the dark side of himself, yet risked passing it onto a child [staff edit: family friendly, please]. I know war does strange things to people, but for him to completely throw off some of the most deeply ingrained parts of himself? Come on! Are we really supposed to swallow that? Or can we just assume that at some point, JKR changed her mind and quickly threw together a family, regardless of whether it was true to the characters, to save Arthur Weasley? I'm sorry but the last book has really put me off the series. It was the only book of the series that came across as 'unbelievable' (Yes i know it's fiction but you know what i mean). It felt thrown together, as if she were just wanting it over. I have read and reread the First six books so many times i've had to replace each of them twice. I can't face the Seventh again - i actually get so cranky, i shake. Hmmm...maybe i need a life! :p I haven't read any of the books since the Seventh came out. I really thought Lupin was a wonderful character who was treated very badly.

I wonder if they'll bother keeping in the storyline for the movies? It's not integral to the story and there's a hell of a lot of information to jam into that last movie. It would be poignant, but if they want to avoid completely confusing fans who haven't read the books, there is a lot of other finishing up to do.

On the plus side, i hated Remus' death so much, i've started writing fan fiction and am totally disregarding all the bits i hate in Book 7. :lol:

I was surprised to read that some people think that Harry didn't mourn Remus or Tonks if I recall correctly it was too much for him so he shut it out of his mind. But yeah I LOVED Lupin he was like my favourite character though I have to say I was disappointed with his behaviour in DH like he was prepared to abandon his pregnant wife. But I was so happy when he made Harry Godfather and he was so overjoyed I actually thought instead of seeing the Sirius parallel that this time there would be a happy ending. I thought it'd be like amongst the happy endings afterall the deaths and bloodshed - oh well I was wrong *sigh*
A truly devestating death!

I thought Remus Lupin and wife Tonks with Tonks' father Ted Tonks were all very sad. I find it sad as they were all trying to do good in this world especially when Remus and Tonks are newlyweds and are new parents to Teddy.

I was surprised to read that some people think that Harry didn't mourn Remus or Tonks if I recall correctly it was too much for him so he shut it out of his mind. But yeah I LOVED Lupin he was like my favourite character though I have to say I was disappointed with his behaviour in DH like he was prepared to abandon his pregnant wife. But I was so happy when he made Harry Godfather and he was so overjoyed I actually thought instead of seeing the Sirius parallel that this time there would be a happy ending. I thought it'd be like amongst the happy endings afterall the deaths and bloodshed - oh well I was wrong *sigh*
A truly devestating death!

i think after all was said and done, he did a fair bit of mourning. i don't know that the relationship was fully healed at the time of remus' death after the explosion at grimmauld place. i'm sure he felt like his time could have been better spent. also, i'm sure he missed out finding out more about his mother and father because the rest of the mauraders are dead.

this post made me think of harry's inability to shut voldemort out of his mind. if he can choose to shut out this devastating memory, why could he not shut LV? do you think it has something to do with choice, ability, or a combination of both, or something else?

It was very errie how they revealed his character killed by Harry just noticing him with Tonks in a pile of bodies ..I get chills thinking of it.

I thought it was a good way for them to reveal Lupin's death. I didn't really want to read about it, but I did want him to die, so it was done in the best way possible in my view. Death was the only means for Remus to really be content and we later got to see that he was; the alternative was a description like the death of Fred, Sirius, Snape, or even Moody - no, I have to say I was happy with the way JKR did it.

I thought it was a good way for them to reveal Lupin's death. I didn't really want to read about it, but I did want him to die, so it was done in the best way possible in my view. Death was the only means for Remus to really be content and we later got to see that he was; what more could we ask for?

I agree. Seeing all of that happen to the others we loved, like Fred and Dobby, was too much for me. While it was still very sad, I liked it more being broken to us that way instead of seeing him be murdered. I wouldn't have liked that at all. I only wish that he had gotten to know his son better. That was the only thing he wasn't content about with dying. He was with his friends again, he died to prrotec the ones he loved, but he still felt bad about his son as he showed later. That's the main reason why his death was so sad for me. :(

I thought it was a good way for them to reveal Lupin's death. I didn't really want to read about it, but I did want him to die, so it was done in the best way possible in my view. Death was the only means for Remus to really be content and we later got to see that he was; the alternative was a description like the death of Fred, Sirius, Snape, or even Moody - no, I have to say I was happy with the way JKR did it.

I agree. Actually reading the words that would actually give me a better picture of Remus's death would have been too hard for me to read. I love Remus so much, but actually reading about him dying after seeing all of these other characters die would have been too much for me. I liked the way Jo did it and I definitely prefered it to an actual scene in the book. I would have been heartbreaking :(

I'm surprised that more didn't die in such an epic battle. How many were injured that we didn't learn about? I just finished re-watching Lord of the Rings, and I was wondering during the battle scenes how anyone could survive in a all out battle. This battle was not that much unlike those battles, except that swords were replaced by wands. How did so many live?

I'm surprised that more didn't die in such an epic battle. How many were injured that we didn't learn about? I just finished re-watching Lord of the Rings, and I was wondering during the battle scenes how anyone could survive in a all out battle. This battle was not that much unlike those battles, except that swords were replaced by wands. How did so many live?

Remember that both sides can do magic too. They weren't immediately overpowered by swords and stuff like in the LotR movies. They use their wands to defend themselves. From what we know, it was a pretty even battle because while Remus, Tonks, Fred and Colin were the only "good guys" to die there, Bellatrix and Voldemort were the only bad ones.

Don't forget about Crabbe, Snape, as well as others. The book indicates more deaths but doesn't name them. "He could not bear to look at any of the other bodies, to see who else had died for him." - page 662 The Deathly Hallows
"They moved Voldermort's body and laid it in a chamber off the Hall, away from the bodies of Fred, Tonks, Lupin, Colin Creevey, and fifty others who had died fighting him." - page 745 The Deathly Hallows. But we still don't know how many Death Eaters died. It does seem unlikely that the Death Eaters could kill 54 wizards and witches and none of them died. If not, it was a very uneven battle.

Swords can be used for defense also, it all depends upon your skill level (ask any fencer). So both sides having magic skills is keeping things even just like 2 armies both having swords. I'm still surprised that more did not die in such a battle.

That was an awful lot of deaths. Likely a lot of students. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that many of the adults who died, like Lupin, had been attempting to protect students at the time. Sad business.

:upset:*sniff*

That kind of said it all.


:slyth:

I think for me Remus's death seems most unfair, I mean he had only just become a farther and husband, it's cruel that he and tonks had so little time together. And poor little Ted.:upset:

i think his death was a result of foreshadowing just like james and lily dying and harry being left all alone

Yes foreshadowing. But she could have just had Harry go to an orphanage and see the kids whose parents had died - or have him adopt one. That would have made the same point. But she wanted all of Harry's father figures taken out of the picture so that he would do the final battle alone. She could have just made it a full moon night and Lupin leave so as not to hurt anyone on the good side? Anyway, it was the ending I wanted; Remus was much happier where he was, even if he would miss his son.

Lupin's death symbolized the end of an era. He and Snape were the last of their generation and they needed to make way for the new world after the fall of Voldemort.

The idea is similar to the film version of V for Vendetta. V felt that he had to die because he played a part in the old world and so wasn't fit to live in the new one.

Well Molly and Arthur were from Lupin's generation too. They lived. JKR said she wanted all of Harry's father figures out of the picture, so Remus had to go. Plus she wanted to show a parentless Teddy - that meant Tonks too.

The other deaths like Snape, Colin, Fred, weren't father figures, but there had to be deaths during the war and it looks like JKR just picked some people and went with them.

I have a question about Remus. In the books, it seems that he does not love Tonks very much. Do you think he does?

I would say he did. However, I think that this discussion could be developed in the Remus Lupin Character thread. :)

I wish J. K. Rowling had put in how Remus died. Like who killed him and how. It is possible that he wasn't killed by the killing curse, but who knows fell off a tower, or even had the imperius curse used on him and was thrown against a wall. It was really sad though that Tonks and Remus, pluss Severus and Fred and all the others had to die. I also wonder why J. K. Rowling wanted all of the father figures out the picture too. Weird!

omg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lupin's death devastated me, that's one part of the HP series I totally did not enjoy as much! Remus was my ultimate fave! :upset: :grumble:

I hated that he and Dora had left poor Teddy parentless! Like Harry, I suppose, but still:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! REMUS DIED. :upset:

OK, all better now...:err:

I was soo sad. He didn't deserve to die! He had a son and a wife they were happy . . .:upset:

Yes, too sad- an unaccounted for, as well. It would make for some sense that Tonks dies, for instance, as she is still young and relative unexperienced in the Order. For Sirius is also plausible, for he was reckless. But Lupin...I somehow don't see Lupin die like that. He's always been cautios, he was Prefect, remember?

Ahh, it was cruel, unnecessary, Teddy should have had at least one parent.

Well Molly and Arthur were from Lupin's generation too. They lived. JKR said she wanted all of Harry's father figures out of the picture, so Remus had to go. Plus she wanted to show a parentless Teddy - that meant Tonks too.
Yes, I agree. :agree: It's sad, but that's the way war is; no one is spared. So she killed off all of Harry's father figures and Teddy's parents to show how cruel war can be. And it forces Harry to stand alone, with no one to protect him.

Lupin was always a tragic figure. If he survived, would it have really led to a major change in how the magical society treated werewolves? Not likely. Look at how African Americans were treated after WWII. Could Kingsley change people overnight? Most likely Lupin would have remained a tragic figure, even with a family. As much as he earned happiness, war, and life, are only as fair as we choose to make them.

Prior to reading DH, Lupin was one of the characters who I really thought would stay alive. I remember on COS ages ago people came up with really convincing theories as to why he would make it. But sadly it did not go that way. His death was completely unexpected. :(

Prior to reading DH, Lupin was one of the characters who I really thought would stay alive. I remember on COS ages ago people came up with really convincing theories as to why he would make it. But sadly it did not go that way. His death was completely unexpected. :(

I sort of expected it...Lupin and Pettigrew were the last of the Marauders. If they both died, then all of the Marauders would be ead. And that is what happened. :( Although I'm not broken up about Pettigrew at all, Remus was a good person. But then again, a lot of good people died. :sigh: It's kind of depressing.

Not only was lupin one of the last Marauders, but he was also Harry's last father figure. James, Sirius, an Dumbledore, the people Harry could trust in and look up to, were all dead. And now since Lupin died, Harry has to stand on his own and look out for himself.

RIP Remus Lupin. :sad:

I wish J. K. Rowling had put in how Remus died. Like who killed him and how.
JKR said this on a web-chat on the-leaky-cauldorn.org: "Remus was killed by Dolohov and Tonks by Bellatrix." So now we know who killed Lupin and Tonks. :(

I sort of expected it...Lupin and Pettigrew were the last of the Marauders. If they both died, then all of the Marauders would be ead. And that is what happened. :( Although I'm not broken up about Pettigrew at all, Remus was a good person. But then again, a lot of good people died. :sigh: It's kind of depressing.

Not only was lupin one of the last Marauders, but he was also Harry's last father figure. James, Sirius, an Dumbledore, the people Harry could trust in and look up to, were all dead. And now since Lupin died, Harry has to stand on his own and look out for himself.

RIP Remus Lupin. :sad:

Oh dear. Now I'm depressed. :sad:

Yep I agree with you, honestly I never thought he would die. I thought he was on the "safe side". How wrong I was.

So if Tonks was killed by Bellatrix then Molly had even more reason to do her block as she liked Tonks and Lupin and encouraged the relationship between Tonks and Lupin.

I thought for a while that Bellatrix might get Tonks in OOPT in the MoM part but she survived that only to be murdered by Bellatrix at the end of DH. It's so sad.

At least Dolohov got his comeuppance the end but I thought Lupin would have been a skilled fighter but my guess is that Dolohov killed Lupin when was engaged with another DE and got him when he wasn't looking. There goes any wizarding ethics. I guess none of the DE's had them.

In the context of DH, an offscreen death was okay for Lupin, but in the context of the entire series, I just didn't like the way it was done. His character was vital to book 3 and fans who really got into the series, like me, wouldn't forget him quickly. Lupin's major presense in book 3 made the character deserve more than an offscreen death imo.

I agree I think I would have liked to have seen an 'onscreen' death for both him and Tonks.

Yes, me too. It almost seems as if Tonks' and Lupin's daths don't even matter; they are more casualties of the battle, more dead bodies in the line. But if we actually got to see their last valiant stand, their deaths would seem so much more meaningful to me. IMO Lupin was a large enough character that we should've seen his death. And I really thought that Lupin would die fighting Greyback and take him down with him. But I guess I was wrong.

Yes taking Fenrir Greyback down with him would have been a fitting way for Lupin to die if he had to - or at least have Bill finish off Fenrir as he was affected by him too - to a slightly lessor extent.

I found the way the audience ound out about Lupin unemotion.

It didnt have a major impact on me in any way. This was something i felt JK didnt do very weel in DH cos the closest i can to crying was when dobby died.. and yet i wept at sirus' and dd death and considering major character such as lupin died there wasnt an adequate emotional reponse from other characters

The death of Remus Lupin, to me, was huge. He was one of my favorite characters. He played a huge part in bringing magic to the world of Harry Potter. But as most of you say, it was tremendously hard to feel emotion over his death because all JKR gave him and Tonks was "oh, he died a few hours ago. terribly sorry"

To me, that's pitiful on her part. I respect JKR to the end, but that was just... Idk, uncalled for. She could have at least elaborated on it somewhat. This is where the Deathly Hallows film can really improve on the book, IMO. So we can see how brave Remus fought and died, and we can remember him with through honor, and not just memories alone.

--sorry, just the lack of description in one of my favorite character's death gets to me :p

I think what upset me most was that this death hadn't previously been planned! :sad: He had been spared, until Jo changed her mind! That made me even more upset! However, I fully understand Jo's reasons for killing Remus off. It made the most sense. :)

Yes, I can see where it made sense. It was war. And you lose loved ones in war. But the fact that all she said was Harry saw his body, and that it hurt Harry, thats what really upset me. She made it too much about Harry's feelings. Lupin was a very established character. And imo, should have been given just a bit more glory

I agree since he was my fav too..... I would have liked al little more closure a a bit like Fred got.

I think it was a given JKR was going to kill him off, the last Maruder. Also it starts a story again full circle an orphan (Teddy) whos parents were killed by the (indirect) hand of Voldemort. Thats just in essence though, really it was pointless. The way we found out as Harry did was ok, it came as a shock even though we expected it sooner or later. However I think as a major character and a favourite of many we deserve to see how he died, as a hero. I cried, it was horrible, I loved Lupin as a character. It was nice how Harry brought him back with the Stone he deserved it.

YEA. I don't see why Lupin had to die. It really was a shame.

I did see him dying, but not the way the book said he did, though in the book I think he died much more bravely than I thought he would and it was such a shame he did have to die, though. I think it was a bit cliche that both he and Tonks died, leaving their little baby alone. I think that was almost a lead off to wanting another little boy that is just like Harry Potter out there somewhere. But, I was so sad when I did read that he died in the book, about Harry seeing his and Tonks' faces under the Great Hall ceiling. Very sad. I do wish we could have seen or heard a more in depth story about it though, :(. I think that Jo just sort of left us with many questions towards many character's deaths and why she killed them.

Lupin's death really hurt me. Expecially since I thought Harry was going to die at the time. I was crying so much for little Teddy. And now we'll never know what his patronus looks like.

Lupin's death really hurt me. Expecially since I thought Harry was going to die at the time. I was crying so much for little Teddy. And now we'll never know what his patronus looks like.
Who's patronus? Remus' or Teddy's?

Remus'. We still have a chance to see Teddy's.

Well we can all imagine or even know that Remus' Boggart was full moons but I can't remember if he used a patronus to get rid of them or not. Surely somewhere in the books his partonus is mentioned? If not let's ask Jo.
Maybe Teddy's was a wolf in honor of his father?

I know I know that's all off topic.....

Well we can all imagine or even know that Remus' Boggart was full moons but I can't remember if he used a patronus to get rid of them or not.

Nope, he used the Riddikulus spell, "almost lazily".

Well, now that I've randomly chosen a thread to stumble onto...
I wasn't very affected by Remus' death at the time I read it. In fact, like Harry, things were all just a blur to me at the time and I wasn't processing all the information.
Afterwards, I was mostly sad for Teddy. Kids like him are really one of the biggest examples of how war can have such awful consequences. It tears families apart.

Harry's reaction wasn't like yours. He was very affected. Obviously the Weasleys were as well, as they placed the bodies of Tonks and Remus with Fred's to mourn rather than have them placed in the main room with the others. I don't think JKR wanted to write Remus' death battle, sometimes even authors can't bring themselves to do it. Sometimes authors do it and by the end it is too much for them and so they just press delete. I was personally glad she allowed Remus to die - my fav. character was finally happy. But I sympathise with those who wished to see his final battle and/or wished for him to live. :)