The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation

Discussion of the editorial The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation (www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-ortizj01.shtml) by Jay Ortiz.

(This thread is for the entire 8-part editorial. Please be sure to specify which part you are talking about if necessary.)

Voldemort did have enough form and power to use a wand in killing Frank Bryce. If he had enough in him in that childlike form to do an AK it isnt unreasonable to think he could have made a Horcrux at the time.

What annoyed me about Dumbledore's description of the Frank Bryce thing is that he never mentions him by name. He also claims that Voldemort used Nagani to kill the man in question. First off, just because Nagani informed Voldemort that Bryce was listening at the door doesnt qualify as "using" the snake to kill the man. Secondly, how on earth would Dumbledore know that Voldemort killed an insignificant muggle "using" the snake in such an indirect way as talking to it? It seems pretty sloppy. There is only one way that I see that could justify Dumbledore's statements, and thats Wormtail being a spy for the Order, which seems very unlikely.

Very very interesting. Thanks for the editorial. One comment, however on your projected reason why Voldemort would have preferred not to kill Lily--ie, that he had no need for another killing because he didnt want to create another horcrux at that particular time.
Voldemort has not shown such a "waste not, want not" attitude before. Many people were killed during hiis reign of terror. You only have to remember his words regarding Cedric, "Kill the spare," to realize that Voldemort would kill anyone who stood in his way without batting an eyelash.
Several people have speculated that Voldemort may have wanted Lily to work for him doing something that only she could do. Remember, we have not found out what her profession was, and that is promised to us. So maybe he wanted her to live in hopes that he might persuade her to join him. That would also explain her words, "I'll do anything." Perhaps he had approached her before with some sort of proposal.
I appreciate the thought that went behind the "deflected" curse theory, but remember how much it is emphasized throughout the series that Harry Potter is the SOLE suvivor of the AK curse. Remember The Boy Who Lived? There are just too many times that this factor was emphasized for it to turn out at the last minute to be inaccurate. For that reason alone I cant buy your theory. But having a minor curse bounce all around the house, killing Lily, carving a lightning bolt on Harry's head, vaporizing Voldemort,and destroying the house is just too much. And I say minor because the horcrux curses are apparently not in the "unforgiveable" class, which seems to be the highest class of curse.

Some good ideas throughout the editorial, but comes across as a bit pompous and condescending to other editorials based on speculation, when this one has a good deal of speculation as well. There's certainly nothing in the books to suggest or not suggest that anyone else was at Godric's Hollow, or that Frank Longbottom was that person if there was.

I'm certainly not knocking speculation - your ideas are very good, AND they seem pretty original, and you back them up. I personally just get a bit annoyed with the tone of a number of editorials on here (this isn't the only one and far from the worst, so sorry to take it all out on you)... seems like a good number of the people who write them believe they have a much better understanding of the series than everyone else, sometimes to the point of writing the editorial more to try to impress than inform.

OK, off the soapbox. As I said, you do make some excellent points, and you've done a good job supporting them.

I've heard the Frank Longbottom thing before, but I dont think its plausable. If Longbottom was there Voldemort wouldnt Stun him. He'd just kill him. Besides, when a person is Stupefied, they lose conciousness and cant act as a witness to anything. I doubt Voldemort would use the full body bind as Dumbledore did on Harry on top of the tower. What reason would Voldemort have to keeping Longbottom alive? Also, just because Voldemort's body was destroyed by the rebounding curse doesnt mean that his magic suddenly died and that Frank would be released. The point of the Horcruxes is that they keep Voldemort and all his powers intact.

As I understand it the piece of soul that resides with Voldemort's body cannot be destroyed as long as a Horcrux remains. Without that fragment there would be no sense of self in Voldemort at all. Hed be just like a victim of the Dementor's kiss, an empty shell that could no longer think. This is backed up by dumbledore's claim that those who wish to kill voldemort must seek to destroy the body last. The main piece of soul remains earth bound and attached to Voldemort's conciousness as long as the Horcruxes remain. The feeling Voldemort deescribes in GoF as being less than the meanest ghost is simply a description of being without a body and only a shattered and diminished soul, but as close to being imortal as possible.

I feel like replacing AK with a Horcrux spell just needlessly complicates things. It always seemed like a good enough story that the AK meant for Harry hit both and killed no one. I always thought the connection between the two was that the "curse that failed" as Dumbledore called it, is still alive in the form of the connection between them. Harry is being shielded by his mother's love, Voldemort is being shielded by evil in his Horcruxes. It fits with the prophecy deliciously. The curse that failed is hanging on both their heads and will dominate their lives until one croaks. It is also perfect for Dumbledore's insistance in the power of the soul that is whole and unbroken. The difference between Harry and Voldemort is that Harry's mother provided him with some protection forever while Voldemort's Horcruxes can be destroyed. The symbolism seems good enough without the Horcrux spell replacing AK.

I've heard the Frank Longbottom thing before, but I dont think its plausable. If Longbottom was there Voldemort wouldnt Stun him. He'd just kill him. Besides, when a person is Stupefied, they lose conciousness and cant act as a witness to anything. I doubt Voldemort would use the full body bind as Dumbledore did on Harry on top of the tower. What reason would Voldemort have to keeping Longbottom alive? Also, just because Voldemort's body was destroyed by the rebounding curse doesnt mean that his magic suddenly died and that Frank would be released. The point of the Horcruxes is that they keep Voldemort and all his powers intact.


I totally agree with you. Voldemort would not have stunned Frank, he would have killed him. I have my own Frank Longbottom at Godric's Hollow theory, which was posted as an editorial here on Mugglenet back in February. It's called One Last Memory and it's still in the featured editorial archive.

When I was working up that theory, I considered the very same scenario that this author presents -- that Frank Longbottom was posted as guard at Godric's Hollow, is stunned by Voldy, and serves as a witness much in the same way as Harry on top of the tower. However, I quickly rejected that theory because I just felt for sure Voldy would shoot to kill, not stun.

However, it just makes too much sense that the reason Belletrix et al were looking for Frank to point the way to their master is because they had evidence that Frank was at the scene of the crime, so to speak. The only way, I felt, that Frank could have been there was if someone else in addition to the Potters and Voldy was there as well, to keep Frank occupied and not killed.

Thus Snape came into my theory. I believe Snape showed up on the tail of Frank, apparently following the Auror, and Voldemort let Frank be because Snape (who Voldy looked upon as a loyal DE) was apparently in battle with Frank. Thus they both served as witnesses, and Frank battled Snape because he didn't know he could trust him. Unfortunately, their battle also kept Snape from stopping Voldy.

It's a long theory, and I think it's stated better in the original editorial. However, I did want to point out here that Frank can be there as an eyewitness, just (in my opinion) not alone and not stunned.

You had me thinking your theory was very plausible until you said only two spells were used at Godric's Hollow, which we know, not through the books, but through the movies, to be untrue.

I know the movies take liberties and change things, but if what you claim is true, than they changed a MAJOR plot point that would effect the entire story. JKR reads over the scripts to make sure these things don't happen. I'm sure she would have intervened if the events the movies show took place at Godric's Hollow were depicted incorrectly.

I know we were shown what Hagrid said, and not exactly what may have taken place. But they revisited the scenes again when showing Harry's memories. To me that means that what we were shown is canon.

The thing that bugged me about this is how you said that you would base your editorial on concrete info from the text... And then you went on to make rather elaborate claims that really arent backed up by the book. As far as originality goes, this editorial was pretty good. However, it seems like you would take an obscure idea (for example when you said that voldemort only cast two spells at godrics hollow) and run with it. You took the relatively simple idea of the seven pieces of voldemorts soul, and created a ridiculously complex editorial that felt more like fan fiction then actual speculation. It would be virtually impossible for JKR to explain something that complex in the context of a novel. Also, how would Harry find out about all this? He obviously needs to know where each piece of Voldemorts soul is if he wants to kill him. If your theory is true, then Voldemort is the only one who knows exactly what happened to his soul, and where all the pieces are. Are you expecting Voldemort to give a seventeen page monologue telling Harry where each piece of his soul is, how it got there, how many spells he used, etc... I think there will be much simpler explanations. I also dont think that Harry is a horcrux.It would be way to predictable.

part 1
sword
dd also says only a real gryendor could pull that sword out of a hat

part2

snake
at the time frank was killed he did have a body we are told that lv did
this kill (the boady petagew put in the coulden in the graveyeard he was in a chair when frak was spoted

but you have a point LV doesnt like to relie on anyone else

dont forget DD is making a gess here he atmits he might berong

back after I read more

Thank you for an outstanding editorial that does not rely on speculation but on the text. Much like a teacher, you have been meticulous in your text analysis and theorizing based on the written word and as a result have led your readers into great depth. I've personally enjoyed reading your ideas and found that they tie together the many, many interrelated ideas that JKR has woven throughout this series.
I do wonder, however, about your explanation of the rebounded curse thrown at Harry that stripped Voldemort of his body. I agree that Harry inadvertantly holds (or did-until the graveyard in GoF) a part of Voldemorts soul. You also state that he did not have two souls but only one. I agree that Lily got in the way of the spell meant to kill Harry but, I think there was some fancy rearranging in those few moments of the souls in question: Voldemort's, Harry's AND Lily's. The only text that has been repeated in every book that you did not address is the statement made to Harry by everyone from Hagrid to Lupin: "You have your mother's eyes". No one ever says "your eyes look like your mother's". We know repetition is JKR's way of saying something is crucial to the plot. I also believe the statement is meant to be literal. If Harry has his mother's eyes (and they are the windows to the SOUL), does Harry's body contain the soul of his mother as the means to protect his soul from the evil stain of Voldemort's? I believe it is quite possible.
The only other question I have is how does the ephemeral, spiritual soul flow through Harry's veins (as in his blood)? That seems an unresolved and weak point in your magnificent theorizing.
Otherwise, it was great writing and very interesting reading.

Whew! Long editorial. I thought your ideas were original, and that's hard to find at this juncture. However, your theories didn't explain the fact that during Harry's fifth year, when, in your opinion, he was no longer a horcrux, he was tuned into Voldemort so much. My theory is that at the end of OOP, Voldemort, when he was posessing Harry, (or whatever happened here,) realized that Harry had a peice of his soul, so he took it with him when he left Harry and disapparated. Harry didn't have trouble with Voldemort in HBP. Kind of suspicious.

This article is very well presented, but I don't think that Harry ever was or is a Horcrux.. Sorry. 'Neither can live while the other survives'- If Harry is indeed a Horcrux, Voldemort could surely live while Harry does. And wouldn't the part of Voldy's soul try to control or manipulate Harry's thoughts at some point?

A very long editorial indeed. I admire you effort in putting up a complex theory that is based on very little fact and lots of improbable (lily deflected the spell and it glance off harry, leave the soul bit in the forehead then rebounded back to voldemort to displace his then soul bit). A good theory should be simple yet able to explain complex things, and JKR has proven time and again that there is alway a simple explaination in all her plots (PoA and GOF are good examples).

To perform an AK would somehow taint the soul, I am sure lot of the auror would have use AK in their fight with the Dark. It required a murdering intent to power the spell. Bellatrix kill the fox with AK without a blink. Voldemort have use AK quite extensively, and to use one on lily is of no issue. Futhermore, creating a Horcrux beyond the first is uncharted territory, even to voldemort it would be more an experiment. An experience duelist like him would not, however arrogant, perform an experiment in the present of an accomplish witch which is definitely not his friend. He may not realize the power of love but he is not that stupid. Killing lily in the quickest way is the simplest way to get to harry at that time and would be the dark lord best option.

I think this theory is the most interesting with the most detail that i have read. I would have to say that i agree with some of your theory but other parts i dont seem to agree with quite as much. Great editorial though. Think this is the best i have read well thought out good use of quotes and information from the books. I like the idea of the dementors performing the kiss on Voldemort. Although to Voldemort death is what he fears the most so do we give him what he fears the most. Even if the dementors sucks out his soul and is pretty much not not exsisting he is still alive eventhough he is soulless. anyways good theory enjoyed it very much bring on book 7!

Wow, that editorial is amazing just for its length, if nothing else! I commend you for writing it, it was a truly interestign read. However, I'm afraid I'm in agreement with Alliria in that you use assumptions just as much as the next author, but are extremely well-convinced of the correctness fo your assumptions (aren't we all?).

By biggest disagreement with the editorial is your description of Harry "carrying" the soul, yet not being a Horcrux - isn't a Horcrux by definition something in which a soul piece is stored? It seemed like you were desperately trying to manipulate the wording, but I don't buy it, sorry. Whether or not he is a Horcrux I'll leave to the 100-page threads on the subject.

Another is your description of Voldemort's behaviour towards Lily and Frank. Frank beign there is a good idea. Howveer, Voldy isn't the type to "Stun" someone and move on with life. Especially a highly skilled Auror who has thrice defied him. Same goes for Lily. Whether he offered to spare her because of a juicy love affair between them, at Snape's request, or a million other reasons, he isn't the type to not waste his soul. It doesn't matter whether you think math applies to souls. (In other words, whether splitting a soul takes away half each time. If it does, then Voldemort's soul was so tiny by that point it wouldn't have made a difference. If math doesn't apply, he can kill as muich as he wants and still have enough soul to work with). He can kill Frank and Lily, and use those murders for a Horcrux - besides, wans't the idea to murder Harry and use that for a Horcrux? Though your insurance thing does make sense. Voldemort fires AKs with wild abandon, it's the DEs who run around like chickens firing Stunners (did they fire a single AK during the Ministry battle?)

As for Gryffindor's sword, I have my own very complex theory on what happened with that. After DD checked it over and whatever, it became a Horcrux during HBP. I think the Room of Requirement pulls stuff from Hogwarts (think the foe-glass). So what's to stop it from pulling Gryffindor's sword? After Voldy murders Amelia Bones (or someone else), he can send either Snape (if you believe he's bad) or Draco (the far more likely candidate) to get the sword for him. Voldemort Horcruxifies it and puts it right back, and no one suspects a thing. I think Draco telling Harry about this sword-snatchign may be Draco's redemption.

And while your theory of an AK and then a Horcrux-spell being fired at Godric's Hollow is nice, there is just about no way to work it into the books. Unless in the middle of the battle Harry invited Voldemort for a cup of tea and they'll spend 100 pages discussing the minute details of the night at Godric's Hollow, I don't see how Jo will work it into a book with merely 784 pages.

I'm sorry if I seemed really critical, because it really was a good editorial.

I didn't like this editorial at all.
1st : "the author" is very pompous, that's absolutly true. He's very disrespectful of the other readers, and litteraly say that if some people might have had something which could be close to a fine guess, it was pure luck.
2nd : He makes a lot of bizarre asumptions, while saying he only bases his work on the text.
3rd : He finally only repeatd what have already been said, discussed, and doesn't bring anything new that would justify his pompous style : he seemd to enjoy writing a lot and read his wonderful work. Sorry, but I really felt insulted by his tone, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one.
5th : your conclusion, more or less, is canon. I mean, it's nice to write editorials, and contribute, but what's new in there that makes him so proud?! I felt like reading Percy's report on cauldrons.
6th : Who knows how many curses were sent this night? Maybe Harry wasn't in the same room, or had the eyes closed, in his cuffin.

B. Leading Theories: Textually Deficient?

"...it was the murder of Frank Bryce that Voldemort used to create the soul fragment to be deposited in the snake. However, it must be recalled that at the time of Frank Bryce’s murder, Voldemort was still in his “Vapormort” state, and it seems unlikely that he would have had the power to create a Horcrux even if he had intended to do so."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

This is not true. Voldy was in his Vapormort state only up until Wormtail found him in Albania and "...returned [Voldemort]to a rudimentary, weak body of [his] own." (GOF p569, Adult Edition)

I have to say I was impressed by this theory. The idea that Voldemort did not cast the Avada Kedavra curse at Harry was quite a shock to the system!

I do like to hear new, completely different theories - it broadens the possibilities of some of them actually being right! This one did give convincing explanations for the 'gleam of triumph' and Voldy's insistence on using Harry to regenerate which I thought was great. I do share other readers' concerns about how it could all be fitted into the book, though.

"Unless in the middle of the battle Harry invited Voldemort for a cup of tea and they'll spend 100 pages discussing..." [hpboy13] :lol::rotfl::rotfl::lol:

I also think being the victim of a Dementor's Kiss would be a fitting end for Voldemort, but that could be a bit of an anticlimax following a big battle. And as someone else mentioned, death is his worst fear, so we kind of want to subject him to that, as well...

The editorial's author expressed concern in the footnotes about spells that were missing in the Priori Incantetem of Voldy's wand. I just wanted to point out that they were not actually all missing - between the shadows of AK victims emerging, screams of pain emitted from the wand, clearly representing the Cruciatus curse performed on various different people. Easy to forget though, as nothing visual appeared for the reader to picture.

"I also think being the victim of a Dementor's Kiss would be a fitting end for Voldemort, but that could be a bit of an anticlimax following a big battle."

I say it should be his end because he thinks there's nothing worth than death; proving him wrong would be a very nice end. I agree that it would kind of be like an anticlimax though.. I wonder what Harry/everyone else will do after the battle?

Stating that these editorials will be based "solely on the text" and then Ignoring the text is, perhaps, not the most persuasive not logical manner to promote your ideas.

When Voldemort killed Frank Bryce he was Not still Vapormort. wormtail had already returned him to "...a rudimentary body of his own" in which he could travel and which it would be easy to hold a wand and Harry himself, later in the book questions.

My question about Nagini is what kind of snake is she. She looks like a constrictor. Does she have fangs, to milk LV. Is she a snake or a basilisk? Slytherin live for over a thousand years until Harry killed it. Since Tom riddle opened the chamber the first time why couldn't him have made that one into a horcruxe,and if he did then Harry destroyed another one. The basillisk was a monster owned by Slytherin,why not use it instead of Nagini unless Nagini was also a basilisk with a long life lineage

Very very interesting. Thanks for the editorial. One comment, however on your projected reason why Voldemort would have preferred not to kill Lily--ie, that he had no need for another killing because he didnt want to create another horcrux at that particular time.
Voldemort has not shown such a "waste not, want not" attitude before. Many people were killed during hiis reign of terror. You only have to remember his words regarding Cedric, "Kill the spare," to realize that Voldemort would kill anyone who stood in his way without batting an eyelash.
Several people have speculated that Voldemort may have wanted Lily to work for him doing something that only she could do. Remember, we have not found out what her profession was, and that is promised to us. So maybe he wanted her to live in hopes that he might persuade her to join him. That would also explain her words, "I'll do anything." Perhaps he had approached her before with some sort of proposal.

A little off-topic, but another theory is that Snape made a deal with Voldy, asking him not to kill Lily (because Snape was in love with Lily, etc, etc.) and that's why Voldemort gave her so many chances to get out of the way. And then lost his temper and killed her.

The remark that he only saw one flash of green light doesn't hold up to me because he wouldn't have seen the light that killed his father seeing as how he was in the other room when he was killed

"Lily, take Harry and go! It's him! Go! Run! I'll hold him off--"
The sounds of someone stumbling from a room -- a door bursting open --
a cackle of high-pitched laughter --

He wouldn't have seen a flash of light because the light wasn't in front of his eyes, it was outside a closed door. At best he would of been able to see 1 foot of green shadow on the floor in between the carpet and the door.

As a whole, your theory does have pretty good backing to every point, but just doesn't seem very plausible.

My question about Nagini is what kind of snake is she. She looks like a constrictor. Does she have fangs, to milk LV. Is she a snake or a basilisk? Slytherin live for over a thousand years until Harry killed it. Since Tom riddle opened the chamber the first time why couldn't him have made that one into a horcruxe,and if he did then Harry destroyed another one. The basillisk was a monster owned by Slytherin,why not use it instead of Nagini unless Nagini was also a basilisk with a long life lineage

Well if, as this editorial suggests, Voldy only had the idea of turning Nagini into a Horcrux after/during Frank Bryce's murder (Book 4) then by the time he'd thought of it, Harry had already killed the Basilisk (Book 2). Otherwise, he might have considered it. It would have been fitting for Slytherin's heir.

Not to jump on the bandwagon of people beating on you, but there were a lot of logical flaws in things that you mentioned. As many people have said, Voldemort was no longer "Vapormort" when he killed Bryce. And when he possesed snakes (shortening their lives), that was not the same as turning them into a horcrux (which could lengthen their lives, for all we know).
Then, on the sbuject of horcruxes, you point out in a footnote that the ring and the book were mutilated, therefore Griffindor's sword was never a horcrux, but those were destroyed horcruxes.
Personally, I don't agree with the theory that the sword is a horcrux either, but your argument is flawed. Also, my impression is that prior to Harry "pulling the sword out of the hat," it was in an unknown place. Fawkes brought the hat to Harry, who then magically pulled a sword out of it. Why else would Fawkes have brought the hat? It had no other purpose. I don't think it was just an easy way of carrying the sword.

This was really interesting. I thought your arguments in Part A about using canon were good. You departed from canon some yourself, but there was usually reason.

Part C: 1) I think Wormtail must have been at Godric's Hollow: we know from Priori Incantatem in GoF that there Voldemort has the wand that killed James, Lily, and Bertha. Peter is a good candidate for being the one who saved it for him. In addition, he's the Secret-Keeper; either he had to take Voldemort to the Potters or he wrote him a note (a la Dumbledore in OotP). Since Peter had been spying for Voldemort for a year by this time (time period from Fudge in "Marauder's Map," PoA, and Sirius in the Shack in the same book) without actually delivering the Potters to him, I think Voldemort would want him there for instant revenge, should it prove necessary.

2) Frank Longbottom was an Auror (and so was his wife, according to Gran in OotP). I think that would provide motive for a bunch of suddenly leaderless DEs to torture them. It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that Aurors who'd already defied Voldemort three times might have caused his unexplained absence. Further, if someone knew that Frank was at the house that night, wouldn't that person have seen what Frank saw (assuming Frank, Stupefied, was capable of registering the events around him)?

D/E: Convincing explanation of "stand aside" and of the advantage to Voldemort of Horcruxing Harry.

F: You're right that PI doesn't show more spells (although that includes the Horcrux-making spell, whatever that would look like). But I'm not clear on how Voldemort is alive with no soul at all. I had understood that the Horcruxes' job was to anchor the soul piece in the body. In "The Patronus," PoA, Harry and Lupin discuss the dementor's kiss. Lupin says you live with no memory of yourself. If that's true, how does Voldemort know that he can possess things? That the Sorceror's Stone and unicorn blood would help him? That he is Tom Riddle? What Hogwarts is and how a timid DADA teacher could help him? And when the dementors attack Harry and Dudley in OotP, a frantic Petunia is trying to discover if Dudley still has his soul. Harry says "Of course they didn't get his soul; you'd know if they had." I can't remember Harry actually seeing a soulless person, but both of these quotes sound like the soul is the interior life of the person in question and the second sounds like its absence would be immediately recognizable.

G: You said of Harry: "He may have carried the seventh fragment of Voldemort’s soul, but it had clearly not possessed him, or displaced his own soul." How is carrying a part of Voldemort's soul different from being a Horcrux? Did anything other than this make the Diary one? Are you sure that a person can't contain more than one soul? What about a pregnant woman? Harry's having part of Voldemort's soul explains why he has Voldemort's gifts--Parseltongue and the "window into Voldemort's mind" JKR mentioned on her website.

H: This does explain why the body-restoring potion needed Harry. But doesn't this mean that Harry WAS a Horcrux until the soul piece was extracted? And why, now that it's gone, does Harry spend so much of OotP still attuned to Voldemort, reading his emotions and seeing the visions Voldemort sends him? We haven't seen him speaking Parseltongue since CoS, I think--but I bet he can still do that too.

J. I liked what you said about the function of Snape in the series.

K. The dementor idea is a good one as well--but if it takes Voldemort's soul won't he be in the same position he was in post-Godric's Hollow? And he came back from that.

this is in reference to part a -
The sword could have come from anywhere because it was not in the hat until AFTER harry put it on his head and asked for help. The sword materialize inside the hat and clunked him on the head. There is no reason to believe that it materialized from Dumbledore's office anymore than from a vault deep inside Voldemort's stately mansion (if he had one.....). Magic hats being what they are - to could have come from anywhere. As this particular hat was Gryffindor's, maybe it could only "fetch" his stuff (maybe - without support, i grant).

in reference to part b -
I too found it difficult to believe LV used Bryce's death as a horcrux. He was however, not Vapormort, but Babymort as he could hold a wand. This may have been a significant death in that it was his first murder after his return to a body or it could have just been expedient. As far as Nagini goes - I wondered when I heard LV was using a living horcrux, whether you can transfer your soul bits between objects so that upon Harry's death LV could make a Gryffindor horcrux.

part c -
I like the idea of Frank Longbottom being at Godric's Hollow. I does bring up several questions. First - why didn't he bring Harry with him? Why did he leave Harry in the rubble for Hagrid to rescue? Why wasn't he protecting his own son whom Voldemort might also attack?

Great editorial!
It seems to me that every bit of the great picture has fallen into place.
Your arguments are fully based on the close reading of the text itself. And this is precisely what Rowling intends her readers to do.
Your editorial is one of the most illuminating ones I have read; it connects all the dots for me.
The most thrilling thing for me about your argumentation is that you probably figured out Rowling's own type of morality she claims to have, which motivates all of the plot! (integrity of the soul vs. killing rips the soul apart)
Thank you!

I think this is an incredibly well-written editorial, but I'm slightly disconcerted by the tone with which it was crafted. It dismisses certain ideas as ridiculous, even though they aren't impossible, by stating that they aren't supported textually. While it's valid to do so, it would be better to do so only after the author's research has rendered his own claims infallible, with respect to textual inclusion and accuracy.

1. Frank Longbottom may have been at Godric's Hollow (unsupported by the text), but he was definitely never stupefied. The author compares this highly speculative scenario to the stupefying of Harry on the Astronomy Tower, even though we all know Dumbledore used a full-body bind (Petrificus Totalus) on Harry. Voldemort would never be caught dead using a Stupefy or any other non-lethal curse on a Ministry Auror/Order Member/Wizard-who'd-thrice-defied-him. Additionally, every use of the Stupefy curse in the series has produced a victim incapable of observing anything at all, until they regain consciousness.

2. The author points out that there is no eyewitness testimony to the fact that the Dark Lord attacked Baby Harry with an Avada Kedavra curse, even though we get Voldemort's first-hand description of the event, which makes it clear that it was the curse he used.

Voldemort's Own Words...

"You know, of course, that they have called this boy my downfall?" Voldemort said softly, his red eyes upon Harry, whose scar began to burn so fiercely that he almost screamed in agony. "You all know that on the night I lost my powers and my body, I tried to kill him. His mother died in the attempt to save him - and unwittingly provided him with a protection I admit I had not foreseen. ... I could not touch the boy."....

"I miscalculated, my friends, I admit it. My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself...

Voldemort may not use the words "Avada Kedavra", but that's only because a group of Death Eaters doesn't need to be told what a killing curse is. He clearly states that he tried to kill him and that the curse rebounded. That is more than sufficient evidence to prove it was the AK.

Remember friends, there is merit to even the wildest theorizing.

I would have to agree with everything that was said by generic22 as well as Alliria. You say that you're going to only discuss what is in canon, but come up with just as extravagant ideas as anyone else, while sounding high and mighty.

While the editorial is well-thought out, there is a much simpler reason that Voldemort wanted to spare Lily. Look at his MO as seen in the other horcrux-making episodes. He kills his father and grandparents and frames Morfin Gaunt (HBP p.367). He kills Hepzibah Smith and frames Hokey (HBP p.438). IMO Voldemort wanted to make Harry into a Horcrux by killing James and framing Lily.

Sorry but you make several factual errors and then spin off into ridiculous conjecture.

Rather than point out the numerous flaws in your editorial (many already listed, by others, in this thread), I will just rejoice that there are only three weeks until the truth is known.

I believe that the sword has always been in the hat until Harry pulled it out. As
for "It would take a real Gryffindor to pull that out of the hat" the hat had brains
put in it by all of the founders (maybe) and that it would take a "real Hufflepuff"
to pull out whatever was placed in the hat by Helga Hufflepuff Etc...

Good call on only two spells actually fired at Godric Hollow, as evidenced by Priori Incantantem in GoF. Meaning the unofficial line of thought - LV kills James, kills Lilly and tries to kill Harry - doesn't hold up because the third spell didn't show up. The question is: can a horcrux spell cause as much damage (kill Lilly, put a bit of LV's soul into Harry and destroy the house) or was it something else ? AK leaves no traces and it certainly doesn't destroy as powerfully, and IMO doesn't account for the mental Harry - LV connection. On the other hand, that is some powerful wand - remember how Pettigrew blew up the whole street.

I always liked the idea of turning Harry into a horcrux was a good precaution by LV. I have questions about the editorial:

1) how do we know Longbottom - or for that matter, anyone beside Potters, LV and Pettigrew - was at GH ? For all we know, Bellatrix & Co. may have simply been aware of the prophecy and assumed LV was at the Longbottom residence that night.

2) if the bit of LV's soul within Harry got back into LV's body at the end of GoF, how do you explain Harry's ever increasing mental connection with LV in OOTP ?

3) Both Pettigrew helping to kill LV and dementors sucking out LV's soul seem to easy for me. I'm more inclined to think Harry will either find a way to get LV to the "love room" in MoM or find a spell that turns LV into what he most hated all along - a Muggle.

snuka--JKR has said (on her website--I think in the FAQ section)--that the Lestranges didn't know about the Prophecy when they went after the Longbottoms. She did not specifically say that Barty Jr. didn't know about it, though.

I second your other points.

sfgilgalad, I thought a lot of the ideas in this editorial--like Harry wasn't hit with an AK--were original and well thought out.

pottersleuth, I know it was only one book but how often were we told in PoA that Sirius was the Potters' Secret-Keeper and betrayer? Both of those were wrong. The editorial is right that, aside from Voldemort and 15-month-old Harry, there are no eyewitnesses to Lily's death and Harry's scarring.

la professeur--I think Lupin or Sirius would have mentioned at some point that Harry's eyes changed after the attack on Godric's Hollow if they had. I think he just has eyes like his mother. I believe this is reinforced throughout the books so we won't forget her, since we hear so much more about James and his friends. For all Harry looks like James, I think his attitudes are at least as much Lily's.

Hoggle--I believe the reason the editorial mentioned Harry seeing only one flash of green light instead of two was to support the suggestion that Voldemort fired only one spell--which Lily deflected and which also encountered Voldemort--rather than two (one at Lily, one at Harry) as the generally accepted version of events in the Wizarding World suggests.

Jay, I wouldn't have thought anyone could make me question the "AK" story, but you've definitely made me wonder. Your theory does respond to a number of loose ends.

I pretty well agree with most of what Shewoman has said but would like to add that I didn't find you high and mighty or condescending as other readers apparently have. I really enjoyed the series especially the later ones and found it joined a lot of the dots for me also. Nobody is perfect and if you did make a couple of mistakes not to worry. At least you made the effort to research and index your points and write them into an editorial which more thn a your detractors have done. I certainly wouldn't have the patience to do all this so thanks for your efforts and in a few weeks we'll know how close all the spectulations over the past few years will have been.

I agree that the only logical explanation for Bellatrix and co seeking out and torturing, rather than killing, Frank and Alice Longbottom (apart from the fact that they like causing pain), is that one of them knew more than we expect. However I also don't buy the thought of Voldemort stunning rather than killing - completely out of character. So that does support the concept of another witness who disabled one of the Longbottoms. I also don't buy any of the 'Harry is a horcrux' theories, even though it does seem to be impecable logic to turn him into one, it also is out of character. Why would Voldemort have any qualms or concerns about murdering an infant?? He has an ego the size of Mt Everest and he didn't hear the bit about 'a power the Dark Lord knows not' or the 'mark him as equal' - so he would be supremely confident that he could walk in with Pettigrew's info and have a very successful night. I suspect that one of the main reasons that so much emphasis has been placed on the Longbottoms is that the memory can still be retrieved and will help in clarifying the events of that night.

The same principle applies to killing Lily Potter - Voldemort has no cosncience of guilt, and he likes killing and causing pain, so I would have thought that he would be more than happy kill Lily under normal circumstances, which brings up that Lily had a skill that he could use eg Potions skills

With regard to vapormort not having a fragment of soul, that seems to defy the most obvious explanation - that Vapormort was the part of soul that resided in his body, freed from the body by the deflected/rebounded curse and now living a 'spectral' existence - which fits. 'Spectral' refers to ghost like, and a ghost is a soul that has chosen to remain earth bound, which is exactly what happened with Voldemort and how a horcrux works.

I think that there needs to be less wild speculation and a bit more looking at the obvious.

I will be back ( in an Arnie accent...), but perhaps people should think more about the simple stuff. I know that the plots have always been complex, but the clues have always been there (Mad-Eye, Sirius, Remus etc).

Ok, continuing...

I am quite sure that the thought of dementors destroying Voldemort has occurred to everyone, and it would be consistent with the prophecy - it doesn't say that 'the one with the power to kill the Dark Lord approaches'. However this is not the only explanation, as it is hard to imagine dementors wanting to attack Voldemort - he is not only an ally, but he doesn't seem to have 'happy' thoughts, at least not like everyone else, the dementors would be unlikely to turn on him. Remember that they feed on happy thoughts. On the other hand, it would be very difficult for him to use a Patronus charm, so he would not have any protection if the dementors did turn on him. The other aspect of the prophecy is the meaning of vanquish - in Word theasarus (that great literary text...) in appears to have more to do with crushing and defeating than actually killing. Which makes it appear that the death at the hand of the other, if it is Voldemort who dies, will be more accidental than anything else. I think falling through the veil would be a likely candidate - it knocked off Sirius, but would not damage Harry's intact soul if he stunned Voldemort through the veil.

Generally, I think that the concept of Harry being hit by a different curse to AK is also inconsistent with Voldemorts habit of making horcruxes with significant deaths. Harry's death would have possibly been the most significant of all, and would have played up to Voldemorts apparently melodramatic side (the items from the founders, significant deaths). Likewise, Harry's blood would be important to Voldemort because he is his NUMBER ONE enemy (the only other contender is Dumbledore), and this would increase the strength of his regeneration, as well as being able to touch Harry. However I don't think the touching aspect is of any particular significance, as Voldemort has no idea that he might not succeed in killing Harry. Plus, Voldemort has a penchant for revenge - he murdered his grandparents in revenge for something they didn't even do.

I will have to go and have a bit more of a think about this one, but generally I found this editorial to be inconsistent with the characters, if not with the actual text.

I didn't find the editorial condescending. In advancing an opinion, it generally helps to point out why you haven't found other ideas on the same topic particularly insightful.

sheppc01, I thought the editorial did a good job of explaining why it would be to Voldemort's advantage to make Harry into a Horcrux.

There's a lot of good reasoning in this editorial, but I feel there's at least one gap: Vapormort was less than the meanest ghost, but he says he doesn't know what he was, and we aren't told by anyone else.

This seems to me to be the sort of omission that JKR makes important to the story. If so, we have been given enough information to make some intelligent guesses, at least.

We know of two things that can speak, and demonstrate some will, and act besides living beings, beast-beings like the Centuar, and ghosts (has-beings, according to Fantastic Beasts). The first are potraits; the second, wand-shadows. Destroying either a portrait or a wand-shadow is not killing, much less murder. (Note also that F. Beasts describes creatures like the Jarvey that can repeat phrases, but have real knowledge of their meanings and are neither being nor spirit.)

If Vapormort was the wand-shadow resulting from the spell that rebounded upon him, kept together by the action of his horcruxes, then 'he' may not have any soul, and destroying him requires not the killing curse but a great deletrius.

Notice also that the newly rebodied Voldemort was actually frightened by the wand-shadows that arose from his wand, leading me to think he might have just then learned what he is, or was. We are told that he was frightened by the Phoenix song, but in Chamber: The Heir of Slytherin Riddlemem/Diarymort wasn't frightened by the Phoenix song, and since he called Fawkes a songbird we must assume that he was familiar with the bird and the song. I think that's a red herring by way of an error Harry makes.

This runs counter to the assertion that only two spells were cast, one at James and one at Harry that was deflected by Lily. But I think it deserves consideration, since it answers the half-asked question and allows Harry to escape the need to be a killer or murderer, thereby answering a plot need.

Hello.

First of all, I thought the author did a pretty good job. I liked the part where he said the horcruxes were damaged after the spell or whatever had been broken. I agree that the sword is NOT a Horcrux.

And sometimes, Jay did sound pompous - like he knew EVERYTHING and that he was the only one to use CANON - But only SOMETIMES.

One of the mistakes was having Frank Longbottom watching the house. I agree that DD would have someone watching over the "non-existant" house - don't know if he was told the secret, my guess is NO, however, it WOULD NOT BE FRANK. We have to remember that Frank's son, Neville, was in equal trouble - like Harry - because of the Prophecy. There is NO WAY Frank is going to watch over someone else's kid when his is in danger. I don't buy it. There is no way that James or Lily would have done it for Neville, if Harry was in trouble.

A reason that Frank could know about LV is because he is an Auror which means he might be on the lookout for LV - like Kingsley was looking out for Sirius. He might have some clues on locations or something - Rookwood would know; there might have been something in the Prophet.

We know that Peter was there because he was the Secret-Keeper and he took LVs wand and hid it....I think LV stated that Peter had given him his wand back somewhere in the 4th book.

Killing Curse:
We don't know what killed Lily - but it was green and IF it was the Horcrux Curse then WHY didn't Lily become the Horcrux? What if the after effect of Lily's protection and the curse that rebounded on LV caused the fire? What if it was Peter or some other wizard on scene that put the house on fire? It seemed no one cared to say "aguamenti".

Another thing that I didn't like was when he was talking about Ginny and the 16 year old Tom Riddle.

He stated:
Ms. Rowling has provided the answer: that person would die, just as Ginny was clearly dying(70) when Tom Riddle gradually began “pouring a little of my soul back into her.”(71) The diary’s slow transfer of its soul fragment into Ginny had nearly robbed her of her own soul – and life – when Harry intervened.(72) Even without Ms. Rowling’s disclosure, simple logic would lead to the same conclusion: to the extent that it is a soul that makes a person unique, it is inconceivable that any single body could contain two souls. If a human being is to be transformed into a Horcrux for the safekeeping of one soul, then the pre-existing soul of that person must be destroyed.

Ginny was dying, but not because Tom Riddle poured a bit into her...Yes Tom does say that in the book, but a couple of pages later, he tells Harry (page 231, Bloomsbury Paperback Children's edition):

So I made Ginny write her own farewell on the wall and come down here to wait. She struggled and cried and because very boring. But there isn't much life left in her: she put too much into the diary, into me. Enough to let me leave its pages at last.

Harry, two pages later, notices the following before answering Riddle's question "How did you survive?" (page 233):

He, Harry, had Fawkes and the Sorting Hat, neither of which would be much good in a duel. It looked bad, all right. But the longer Riddle stood there, the more life was dwindling out of Ginny ... and in the meantime, Harry noticed suddenly, Riddle's outline was beomcing clearer, more solid. If it had to be a fight between him and Riddle, better sooner than later.

The reason Ginny was dying was that her soul was being put INTO the Horcrux, feeding Tom's soul fragment. LV/Riddle wasn't pushing her soul OUT, he was sucking it IN...Ginny would be dead AND Riddle's 16 year old self...would become CLEARER and more SOLID...he didn't need a body, not even Ginny. If it is as Jay states, then Harry would have met Ginny alive and well, with Riddle's soul, NOT Ginny dying and Riddle leaving the pages, walking and talking - less like a ghost each passing minute.

I do agree with the Godric's Hallow part, for the most part, there were ONLY 2 spells from LVs wand that night. But, Peter was there and maybe others, they might have done some kind of spell damage. But we are not sure that it is the Horcrux curse or charm or whatever - it ISN'T clear, unlike what he states. We don't know how it is cast, before or after (though it seems afterwards, but we don't know). DD states, not only Imposter Moody, that Harry has survived the Killing Curse and I believe that was a Killing Curse. I think that after killing Harry that he would have made his last Horcrux....he doesn't know the second part of the Prophecy.

If this is pretty accurate, I feel bad for reading this, because I won't be surprised by Jo's writing and imagination....but I still am looking forward to it in any case....no matter what I have read :)

Meghana

2. The author points out that there is no eyewitness testimony to the fact that the Dark Lord attacked Baby Harry with an Avada Kedavra curse, even though we get Voldemort's first-hand description of the event, which makes it clear that it was the curse he used.

Voldemort's Own Words...

"You know, of course, that they have called this boy my downfall?" Voldemort said softly, his red eyes upon Harry, whose scar began to burn so fiercely that he almost screamed in agony. "You all know that on the night I lost my powers and my body, I tried to kill him. His mother died in the attempt to save him - and unwittingly provided him with a protection I admit I had not foreseen. ... I could not touch the boy."....

"I miscalculated, my friends, I admit it. My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself...

Voldemort may not use the words "Avada Kedavra", but that's only because a group of Death Eaters doesn't need to be told what a killing curse is. He clearly states that he tried to kill him and that the curse rebounded. That is more than sufficient evidence to prove it was the AK.
Those two sentences don't prove anything. If the AK was used that night, and so caused the house to become rubble, then why haven't we seen it since? It was used in Harry's dream when Voldemort used it to kill Frank, yet there was nothing there that said that the house was falling down from the use of the curse. And even when it has missed its mark, it still didn't do much damage. The most i remember is a chipped gravestone from the duel in book 4.

But if the horcrux creating spell was used, then the energy that might be required to get the split piece of soul out of the body and encased into a solid object that likely has high magical powers on it, then the possibility of there being lots of energy released if the spell is deflected is massive.

I always thought the house was destroyed because Voldemort exploded. The AK curse he recieved didn't work, because it was parlty cancelled by his immortality. Seems when this kind of "cancelling" happens, strange things happen, too, just like the dome which appears when Harry and Voldemort fight. This absolutly never happens with a simple "Prior Incantatem" curse. So, well, with all that magic happening that night (Fidelius, AK, Love Shield) the vibration might have been very strong and could have made a big deflagration. Or, also, all this could have upset little Harry, who himself could have destroyed his house. Why not? He just received a lethal curse, AK or not, which rebounded, but hurted him right between the eyebrows. He could have had a magical self defense reaction, and we know that Harry can be very very destructive...

I agree that the editorial, while original, was a bit pretentious. The author dismisses other people's theories as being not based on text and then launches into speculation which is no more textually-based than the theories he dismisses, and which contains numerous logical flaws, as many posters have already pointed out.

I think the Potters' house might have been destroyed by dueling. My impression of the duels between the Order and the Death Eaters in the Department of Mysteries were that they caused a lot of damage, e.g. shattered statutes and the like. Similarly, I got the impression that the dueling between the Order/DA and the Death Eaters at the end of Half-Blood Prince was pretty destructive as well. (Maybe I'm wrong - I may have to go back and re-read.)

Perhaps the Potters' little house in Godric's Hollow was destroyed in the moments leading up to Voldemort's demise by dueling between James and Voldemort, Lily and Voldemort, or anyone else who happened to be there. As to why such dueling would destroy the Potters' house but not the Department of Mysteries and Hogwarts, the DoM and Hogwarts are both large, fortified, cavernous places, while the Potters' hideout in Godric's Hollow might have been small and modest.

Alternatively, perhaps after Voldemort disappeared, someone else who was there (Peter Pettigrew?) might have blown up the house to destroy evidence -- we already know Peter was adept at blowing things up with magic from his confrontation with Sirius Black.

I believe that the spell Voldemort attempted to cast on Harry was Avada Kedavra, but the author is correct that Avada Kedavra doesn't cause destruction. There must be some other explanation for the destruction of the Potters' house.

Question: has JKR ever associated a flash of green light with a spell other than Avada Kedavra? My recollection is that AK is the only spell we know of that results in a flash of green light -- but I may be wrong? If JKR has introduced us to another spell that results in a flash of green light, perhaps there is a possibility that Voldemort used a different spell (though I think it's unlikely).

Wow, a lot of work has been put into this editorial, so my hat is off to you for your effort.

However I disagree with a number of points raised.

I do not agree that a spell other then AK was used. I am a little confused about how a Horcrux making spell/curse can kill Lily, reflect onto Harry and only leave a scar, but then rebound onto LV in effect killing him (if not for the existing horcruxes) and then destroy the house. I know there's Lily's sacrafice, but I still think it sounds unlikely.

Also, if the horcrux SPELL rebounded off Harry, how can the SOUL be IN Harry (whether in the scar or in his blood as mentioned??). Wouldn't the soul have rebounded with the horcrux spell that 'killed' LV and destroyed the house? I wish we knew how the darn things were made!!

I also do not agree that vapourmort was without a soul. Without a soul, he would not have been 'vapourmort' - he would not have known who he was or be waiting for his faithful deatheaters to find him and do the piece of magic that would return him to his body etc.

I agree with others who think Wormtail was there at the house and not Frank Longbottom - being the secret keeper he took LV there, blew up the house (for some as yet unknown reason - he later blew up the street of muggles so he as the ability), and took LVs wand which he was then able to return to him after he escapes in POA. But where did the story come from if it was only Peter who accompanied LV? How did Dumbledore and the rest of the wizarding community find out? Points to ponder... Some holes in my theory there..

I agree with others who say that LV would not have stunned or even the body bind curse on anyone who was there guarding the Potters - he would have murdered Frank without a second thought. However it was interesting to read that Bellatrix and co went after the Longbottoms because they thought he knew where LV was. What actually made them think that would be interesting to know. Meghana's idea that he was perhaps on the lookout for LV is very straightforward and plausible, so Frank being there could be a slight possibility.

Another opinon of mine that differs with this one is that Voldemort was using Jame's death to make a horcrux. I think that it would have been Harry's death with which he planned to make a horcrux with. I am not sure how James' death would have been sufficiently important to use for making a horcrux.

Also, not every murder is made into a horcrux, even though the very act of murder tears the soul. Therefore, by this theory, I would think that if LV was indeed using James' murder to make Harry into a horcrux, then LV would have had to perform a spell to capture that fragment of soul, before imparting it into Harry? We don't know how a horcrux is made, but I think that you would have to first capture or obtain or otherwise hold the piece of soul torn before performing the magic to make the horcrux?? Otherwise, anyone who has murdered would be able to make a horcrux at any time because their soul is 'torn'. I'm probably totally off base here, but its a thought. So IMO, Voldemort had not yet performed the horcrux making spell - he was going to do that with Harry's more significant murder.

Also, does Harry now posess any part of LV's soul in your theory? I find it hard to think that taking a little bit of blood would rid him of the whole fragment of soul?

Again a great deal of effort has been put into the essay, and even though I do not agree with it, it was great to read a new theory.

As for possible reasons that Bellatrix and company tortured the Longbottoms, perhaps someone (Snape or Voldemort) told them the first part of the prophecy (or they heard about it second or third hand) and assumed that Neville Longbottom was the child Voldemort set off to destroy to fulfill the prophecy. After all, Bellatrix and Co. were probably blood "purists" and would assume Voldemort's nemesis was a pureblood wizard. Then, after Voldemort disappeared, Bellatrix and Co. sought out and tortured the Longbottoms because they thought that's who Voldemort went after the night he vanished, and that the Longbottoms were the last to see Voldemort "alive."

Seems to me that's just as plausible as Frank Longbottom being present at Godric's Hollow.

how did Dumbledore know the Potter's hiding place? Pettigrew was the secret keeper.....as far as we know, he only told Voldemort where to find the Potters. There is no way Dumbledore could have known, much less have Frank Longottem be a lookout......even if Dumbledore knew, he could not pass the message to Longbottom....that would have to come from the secret keeper, Pettigrew, himself.

Sighless seer : I think it's written in the book that after the murder, Sirius arrived, and found Pettigrew. He ran after him, and then, arrived the aurors. So, I guess, as F Longbottom was an Auror, that he was there, too. He might have captured Sirius, and as Bellatrix knew they both were in the OotP, and that his cousin wasn't a DE, she just guessed Sirius might have told him what happened.
Sy8 : the enchantment disapeared when Lily died.

I don't think Frank Longbottom could've been present in Godric's Hollow the day of Lily and James' death. By this point it was still unclear whether the prophecy referred to Harry or Neville. (Voldemort hadn't "marked" either one of them as his equal)

If there was still even the slightest chance Neville was in danger, Dumbledore would never allow Frank to leave his wife and child.

Hello,
I'd like to refer to everyon'es, especially Minmei's comment on how the potters' house was destroyed. I like your explanation, and I found the duels you mentioned pretty destructive. I'd like to add my own explanation. I think the destruction may have been related to the broken fidelius charm which shattered, finally, with the death of the potters whom it was meant to protect. Remember the dramatic change that took place before harry's eyes in OOtP, when he merely read Dumbledore's note regarding the location of HQ. An entire house popped before his eyes. Yes, I know it had been there all along, but I believe this means the Fidelius charm is very powerful, if it can hide an entire building, and it's possible that such a blatant breaking of it may cause the destruction of that building.
Either way, we cannot ignore the possibility that additional protetive spells had been placed in Godric's Hollow and that all in all, some serious magic took place there, even without the killing (or, as the author suggests, Horcrux) spells.

I think the Potters' house might have been destroyed by dueling
...
Perhaps the Potters' little house in Godric's Hollow was destroyed in the moments leading up to Voldemort's demise by dueling between James and Voldemort, Lily and Voldemort, or anyone else who happened to be there. As to why such dueling would destroy the Potters' house but not the Department of Mysteries and Hogwarts, the DoM and Hogwarts are both large, fortified, cavernous places, while the Potters' hideout in Godric's Hollow might have been small and modest.



This is what Harry remembers in PoA, because of the Dementors;

1.'Lily, take Harry and go! It's him!Go! Run! I'll try to hold him off!'
The sounds of someone stumbling from a room - a door bursting open - a cackle of high pitched laughter-
PoA p178 (BLoomsbury: paperback edition)

2. 'Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!'
'Stand aside you silly girl... stand aside now...'
'Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead. Not Harry... Please have mercy... have mercy...'
A shril voice was laughing, the woman screaming
PoA p 134 (Bloomsbury: paperback edition)

Neither fragments suggest dueling. Of course there is some time between the two fragments, so dueling between LV and James can not be excluded. But the time in between fragment one and two seems rather short. Lily was still in the house (or so it seems, since Harry was found in the ruins of the house), so James can't have 'held off' LV very long. It takes time to destroy a whole house, if only two persons are dueling.
Even if the gap between these fragments is pretty big, somehow dueling doesn't seem to correspond with Voldemorts 'method'. He doesn't duel, unless it's interesting for him.
In this case, it wasn't. James was just an obstacle between him and Harry (Unlike in the graveyard scene in GoF where dueling with Harry is a matter of image. He had been chasing Harry for 14 years, and killing him in a duel would be much more impressive - and he was pretty sure he would win).
Voldemort is/was a very powerfull wizard, and I think he could preform the Avada Kedavra easily (on an average/good wizard like James), without too much fuss like dueling.

Even though I think there was no duelling between LV and James or Lily, dueling is still the best explenation for the destruction of the house.
Avada Kadavra doesn't cause destruction, and I do believe that is what made Voldemort into Vapormort.

Emps, someone (who but Mr Snape) told Dumbledore that Voldemort was after the Potter. So, Neville might have been protected, but Franck Longbottom wasn't a target. And, he was working for the Ministry.
About duelling, I don't know, it seems James's murder only took a few seconds, while murdering Lily (even if he didn't kill her directly with an AK curse or whatever, let's say he murdered Lily, it will just be easier) took longer time.
I have a few theories :
- Voldemort's explosion destroyed the house
- Harry destroyed the house (Hagrid says he started to sleep in Bristol, so I thought he was upset before and then got tired, and who but Hagrid is able to control an angry baby hehehe)
- Wormtail destroyed the house (gaz explosion someone?;))

As for possible reasons that Bellatrix and company tortured the Longbottoms, perhaps someone (Snape or Voldemort) told them the first part of the prophecy (or they heard about it second or third hand) and assumed that Neville Longbottom was the child Voldemort set off to destroy to fulfill the prophecy. After all, Bellatrix and Co. were probably blood "purists" and would assume Voldemort's nemesis was a pureblood wizard. Then, after Voldemort disappeared, Bellatrix and Co. sought out and tortured the Longbottoms because they thought that's who Voldemort went after the night he vanished, and that the Longbottoms were the last to see Voldemort "alive."

Seems to me that's just as plausible as Frank Longbottom being present at Godric's Hollow.

Actually, as soon as I posted this I realized it had to be wrong... If everyone in the wizarding world knew within 24 hours that Voldemort had been defeated by Harry Potter, then Bellatrix and company would have heard that as well, and would have known the Longbottoms did not cause Voldemort's demise.

Interesting, but the fact that Harry and Voldemort's connection was strongest post Litttle Hangleton debocle, would in my opinion completely contradict the idea of Voldemort regaining the piece of his soul that was left in Harry.

Without that common link, one would assume that all telepathic communication between Harry and Voldemort would cease to exist.

You bring up a good argument, but I think this is a vital piece that needed to be discussed.

The whole theory of Frank Longbottom being at Godric's Hollow there is just wishful thinking. Remember Neville was also a potential target; so why would Frank be anywhere near the Potters? Wouldn't he want to be with his family, protecting them? He would want to keep as much distance from the Potters as possible. Why give Voldemort the chance to kill two birds with one stone?

I agree that Harry will not Kill Voldemort but there is something important you've missed. Dumbledore spoke of our choices defining us. Harry must Choose not to kill Voldemort. With full knowledge of the prophecy he chooses not to kill. Dumbledore said the Prophecy only became true because Voldemort Chose to act on it. What if it becomes just annother prediction because harry chooses to ignore it. When has he ever done what Trelawney says before any way. No, I think Harrys golden moment will be when he realises that no one can make him a murderer except himself and he doesn't want to be one. And in doing so he will do what's right. Not what's easy.

Minmei, JKR has said on her site that the Lestranges did not know about the Prophecy when they went after the Longbottoms.

sfgilgalad, Sirius goes to Wormtail's house the morning after GH (not knowing what's happened) and finds him gone. Suspicious, he goes to the Potters' house, sees their bodies, sees Hagrid and gives him his motorcycle. He then goes looking for Peter, who was ready for him and framed him, faking his own death by cutting off a finger.

Fudge, who wasn't Minister of Magic yet, was one of the first (if not the first) person present at the scene when Peter killed the Muggles and framed Sirius.

This editorial brought up several new points that I never thought of before. The most interesting is how the Priori Incantatem scene in GoF shows that there wasn't a separate spell killing Lily and then attempting to kill Harry.

I also enjoyed the part about LV intending to make Harry his final horcrux as a way of protecting him against the prophecy. The only (possible) flaw with this theory is it would suppose that LV knew that Harry was definitely the boy referred to in the prophecy. That seems awfully far-fetched. A more likely motivation would be for LV to simply kill both boys. I suspect he just happened to go to Harry's house first. Your theory would still work if LV intended to make both boys into horcruxes, but that seems less plausible as well.

The attack on the Longbottoms can be explained if the Lestranges and/or Crouch Jr. knew that LV intended to kill both boys. LV wouldn't need to share why he was going to do it (the prophecy) only that he would. Put yourself in the point-of-view of Bellatrix and co: LV's gone and possibly killed -- no one knows how. One of his targets is decimated (the Potter house), and the other is untouched (the Longbottom house). They could easily have assumed that the Longbottoms were successful in repelling LV.

One final slightly off-topic thought, and this one has been bugging me since first finishing HBP. I've never seen this issue raised. Why would LV have waited so long to make his sixth horcrux using Harry? LV first expressed desire to make a 7-part soul when he was in school at Hogwarts. The timeline puts this sometime in the 1950's. He never heard of the prophecy or of Harry until the early 1980's. He would have no motivation to wait 30 years to complete his goal of six horcruxes. More likely is that he would have done it as soon as possible. The only explanation for this (a weak one in my opinion) is that it actually took LV 30 years to collect the specific relics he wanted to make his horcruxes. I don't believe he would've waited so long. LV wants power and he wants it ASAP. What's extra troubling is that Dumbledore suggests this theory to Harry without speculating why he thinks this is plausible. I welcome anyone's comment on this.

Thanks for your editorial.

~ Dan Estes

There are some very good Ideas in this editorial, but the theory, that Frank Longbottom could have been present at Godric's Hollow, when Lily and James were killed, is not at all reasonable. What's more: it is not possible.

At thirst, it is very unlikely, that Voldemort would have stunned an Auror, that got in the way of an attempted murder of his.

And second: If the stunning-spell had lifted after Voldemort "died", Frank would, as much as Dumbledore in the other theory, have been able to rescue Harry from the destroyed house. Because Harry was not rescued by Frank Longbottom, it follows logically, that the latter was not present.

Not to jump on the bandwagon of people beating on you, but there were a lot of logical flaws in things that you mentioned. As many people have said, Voldemort was no longer "Vapormort" when he killed Bryce. And when he possesed snakes (shortening their lives), that was not the same as turning them into a horcrux (which could lengthen their lives, for all we know).
Then, on the sbuject of horcruxes, you point out in a footnote that the ring and the book were mutilated, therefore Griffindor's sword was never a horcrux, but those were destroyed horcruxes.
Personally, I don't agree with the theory that the sword is a horcrux either, but your argument is flawed. Also, my impression is that prior to Harry "pulling the sword out of the hat," it was in an unknown place. Fawkes brought the hat to Harry, who then magically pulled a sword out of it. Why else would Fawkes have brought the hat? It had no other purpose. I don't think it was just an easy way of carrying the sword.


Well actually he could have easily seen the light though a window. we have no idea how the house is constructed.

So much text and yet so little meaning. The same could have been written in a quarter of the length from the author.

Sorry, but I had trouble just getting past the first paragraph. For Voldemort to say he was, "less than the meanest ghost," is hardly conclusive proof that he had no soul parts at all. The meanest ghost seems better off than Vapormort, in that it doesn't need unicorn blood to continue on, and probably has more soul than Voldemort had at Goderic's Hollow.

Further, I dont recall any specific JKR statements that AK destroys the soul to kill the person. We know that it kills without leaving a mark, suggesting it works entirely in the supernatural realm, at least when it works. (When it misses its intended target, it is physically powerfull, as we see in the fight at the Ministry in OotP, and in the Deatheater fight in HBP.) If it did destroy the soul I would think it would have been well spelled out. Rather, it seems more likely that as murder can cause a soul to split, that the AK severs the connection between the body and soul. But, as I understand it, a horcrux anchors the remaining soul piece to the natural/physical world. It cannot expire/proceed to the "next great adventure" while so anchored. This editorial seems to assume that what is anchored is a conciousness independent of a soul or soul slice.

JKR has purposely not spelled out how all this works, as she is clearly trying to avoid specific claims about life after death. She has however given us the example of the Dementor's kiss actually stealing/destroying the soul. Dumbledore describes it as worse than death, but it is hard to picture as anything but leaving a spiritless body, something like a persistent vegatative state. But this seems entirely incompatible with the idea that Voldemort existed as Vapourmort in this condition without a body.

I don't think that Harry was present when his father was killed. We know that James told Lilly to take Harry and run. We also know from Voldemort that James put up a good fight. That would seem to me that Lilly had at least enough time to get at least some distance away from the area where James and Voldemort fight ( I would assume that it happened in the front of the house)

As to who else would have been there, I think that Frank Longbottom most likely was there as a guard for Dumbledore, however I don't think it likely that Voldemort showed up alone. I would think that he had at least one or two Death Eaters with him who most likley were charged with taking care of any guards that he would have assumed Dumbledore to have had there. This would also explain why so many of Voldy's followers so quickly knew of his demise- as if Frank was the only one there, he would not be informing their side of the down fall. And if he did, I doubt they would believe it.

A question I have is how much soul is really left of Voldy?
Exactly how much soul is used in the creation of a horcrux? In all the talk of Horcruxes, it says that the soul is split. To me, this sounds like the soul is split in half. If this is the case, just how much soul is in each of the horcruxes, and does that make any difference?

Assuming that the soul is split in half each time, the first horcrux would contain 1/2. The second, 1/4, then 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, and finally 1/64.

The diary was the first attempt and would have contained the most soul, at 1/2. Currently Voldemort would have only 1/64th of his soul in tact now.

Will this make any difference in the battles ahead for Harry?

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