Tom's underage magic

Can someone tell me why no ministry letters were sent to the orphanage if Tom Riddle was performing underage magic, even it if was without a wand?
Or does underage mean 11+ from when you start hogwarts as you're too uneducated to know when to use magic
If there is no explaination, does it mean there was an adult wizard living at the orphanage?

Remember that there were several instances when Harry used magic while underage, the vanishing glass, getting onto the roof at school, growing his hair back, and these were never noticed. I believe its because they were all unintentional, and were donw without knowing what htey were really doing.

yea i would agree with that answer.
or maybe because he was a complete nobody, they had no reason to suspect anything.
OR
maybe someone else in the orphanage was a wizard, so the ministry thought it was that person doing it.

Jo

Or does underage mean 11+ from when you start hogwarts as you're too uneducated to know when to use magicI'd have to go with this option. Hermione doesn't mention any letters coming prior to her Hogwarts invitation, for example, yet she does mention having done odd/strange things prior to that. Harry never got in trouble until after he started at Hogwarts, as 8m57w6 has pointed out. :)

Remember that there were several instances when Harry used magic while underage, the vanishing glass, getting onto the roof at school, growing his hair back, and these were never noticed. I believe its because they were all unintentional, and were donw without knowing what htey were really doing.

I agree. I don't think the ministry really cares what magical kids do when they are not in school yet. They believe it can't do much harm at that time.
When they are at school, that brings the responsability of controlling yourself. What I wonder is how those kids can do magic without their wands.

maybe the ministry cannot detect magic done at such a young age. They didn't give harry a warning for any of the magic he did before he was 11 or maybe they cannot detect it without the use of the wand?????

Congratulations for your first post!
I think the Ministry doesn't believe that anyone before school can actually control what they're doing, so how could they send them a warning?

Congratulations for your first post!
I think the Ministry doesn't believe that anyone before school can actually control what they're doing, so how could they send them a warning?

Certainly to the people that have muggle families and don't know anything about the muggleworld, like Hermoine. They would probably think some kind of idiot wrote it.

Can someone tell me why no ministry letters were sent to the orphanage if Tom Riddle was performing underage magic, even it if was without a wand?
Or does underage mean 11+ from when you start hogwarts as you're too uneducated to know when to use magic
If there is no explaination, does it mean there was an adult wizard living at the orphanage?

I don't think the Ministry monitors you until you have been enrolled at Hogwarts. Or perhaps Harry's magic was too "un-channeled" for them to be concerned about.

As for Tom Riddle's magic use, I would say that he wasn't being monitored yet.

Remember that there were several instances when Harry used magic while underage, the vanishing glass, getting onto the roof at school, growing his hair back, and these were never noticed. I believe its because they were all unintentional, and were donw without knowing what htey were really doing.

I agree with this answer

Sort of like Dumbledore mentions in the cave in book 6, strong magic can be read or noticed (at least he seemed able to), so I would imagine a young persons small power wouldn't even be known or recognized by whatever detects it.

At first I figured that it had to be intentional magic for the ministry to pick it up, not just what underage kids do without meaning to. But then I remembered that in chapter 6 of book 1, the very first time Harry and Ron meet Hermione, she tells them, "I've tried a few simple spells just for practice and it's all worked for me" (pg 105, American hardback version). She was doing intentional magic with her wand before she got to Hogwarts.

So, unless she just happened to unknowingly only practice magic in Diagon Alley and on the train (where, because of all the other magic going on, the Ministry wouldn't be able to pick it up), she should have gotten a reprimand from the Ministry. The only option left, then, is that the Ministry can or chooses to only pick up magic performed once the witch/wizard is in school. This is interestingly similar to the way that Voldemort's boat only picked up the magic of adult wizards. Maybe the Ministry's policy is not to its advantage!

I agree with the other posters. I think that when magic is done unintentionally, even if the witch or wizard is underage, I believe no actions will be taken against them.

I do not see how one could be held accountable over something they have no control over.

If you look at Harry getting blamed for Dobby's hover charm, they go by wizards known in the area, and if there wasn't a wizard known at the orphanage, they wouldn't be monitoring for magic, and if there did notice something they would probably think it a fluke because they don't know about Tom.

i dont think they can link anything magic to a wizard until they are 11. and even if they could i think they would place the parents in the responsibility of controlling the child. i dont know why toms magic wasnt monitored maybe they didnt expect him to be able to do magic without a wand.
maybe the wand is the thing that is monitored and without it they cant tell the magic you do.

I agree. I don't think the ministry really cares what magical kids do when they are not in school yet. They believe it can't do much harm at that time.
When they are at school, that brings the responsability of controlling yourself. What I wonder is how those kids can do magic without their wands.

There are several instances in the series where spells are cast without wands. Two that stick out in my mind are

1. PoA (Sorry I don't have the page number) - When Snape ties Lupin up in the Shrieking Shack he (Snape) snaps his fingers and the ends of the ropes jump into his hands.

2. OotP (page 17) - When Harry is searching for his wand in the alley when the dementors attack he says lumos and his wand-tip ignites... that is how he finds it.

I'll look for a couple other instances and post them as soon as I can put them together.

I agree with what's been posted before. I don't think they pay attention to magic until a certain age and known wizards in the area. Tom not being a known and monitor wizard yet he wasn't reprimanded. The same case with Harry before he was of enrolled in Hogwarts.
I'm guessing the same with other wizards who have no parentage or otherwise guadian who knows they are magical.
Because I do recall that somewhere in the series it says that kids and so on are suppose to be monitored by their parents on doing magic outside of school and I'd imagine before they ever start school. That is if they come from a family of wizards/witches such as the Weasley's.

If every witch or wizard does underage magic, that's a lot of owls from the Ministry of Magic, just to give out warnings, and those who only find out that they are to attend Hogwarts at the age of 11 might not even now that it is magic they are performing at the age of five or something like ti.

Hm.... everyone here makes a good point,but the Magic that Tom did Pre-Hogwarts was alot diffrent then Harry's.Tom's Magic actully hurt People, like the to kids he tortured, and the rabbit he hanged. Woulden't the ministry keepa close eye on him if they knew he was doing this kind of stuff?

Hm.... everyone here makes a good point,but the Magic that Tom did Pre-Hogwarts was alot diffrent then Harry's.Tom's Magic actully hurt People, like the to kids he tortured, and the rabbit he hanged. Woulden't the ministry keepa close eye on him if they knew he was doing this kind of stuff?
I'm guessing that since he wasn't yet in Hogwarts that he wasn't being monitored. Or it is possible that they can only monitor magic done with wands.

Tom also gets away with underaged magic when he is modifying Morfin's memories and killing his father and paternal grandparents. I assume that he didn't get in trouble for it because they sensed the magic but didn't know who could have been there to perform it. That is also why they blamed Harry for Dobby's magic - because of location. Of course Dobby's magic wasn't with a wand so that may change that theory.

It is interesting that they knew of underaged magic at the Gaunt and Riddle residences yet still blamed Morfin for the crime.

thats what i thought. It's actually magic that has potential to harm. THis is why i believe someone else at the ophanage are indeed present with Tom Riddle in the caves is a wizard.
Tom riddle did also return back to the orphanage when he started hogwarts.

Its possible someone, a wizard was watchful of Tom Riddle but didn't tell them they could also do magic. That way they could learn his weaknesses, secrets even

Firstly, it is only magic performed by someone aged 11 and over which is monitored, as many others have said Harry got away with several instances without getting into trouble for it. It's once they learn how to control it.

Secondly, Tom lived in London which had many other witches and wizards, probably in neighbouring towns. So it would have to be assumed that an "of age" wizard had performed the magic.

I don't quite understand how the MoM tracks underage magic. Do they trace where the magic was done? This method has many flaws and would often be inaccurate. Couldn't they track the wands of underage wizards to know if they used magic or not? Couldn't they even, considering their advanced technology, put some kind of sensor or something on the actual student that would alert the Ministry if magic was used?

What if the Ministry could definitely link every spell to the actual person who performed it? It doesn't seem that it would be too hard.

Even if Tom had been caught, he'd probably just get a letter like this:

Dear Mr. Riddle,
It has come to our attention that you performed the Avada Kedavra curse today at 10:34 pm. We would like to remind you that you are underage and are not allowed to do magic outside of school. We are giving you a warning, but if you are found to have breached this regulation again, you may be expelled from school. Also remember that performing magic in front of muggles is a breach of the international statute of secrecy. Thank you and have a wonderful holiday.
Sincerely, the clueless people at the Ministry of Magic.

dd's talk to tom at the opranage
by going to hogworts you place your self under the mom
so befor that the muggle born dont count for the mom, its not the moms problem till they start school, muggles parentd do s good job of covering up
without the mom help

I don't quite understand how the MoM tracks underage magic. Do they trace where the magic was done? This method has many flaws and would often be inaccurate. Couldn't they track the wands of underage wizards to know if they used magic or not? Couldn't they even, considering their advanced technology, put some kind of sensor or something on the actual student that would alert the Ministry if magic was used?

We've already been told that the only way the ministry as of tracing magic is by where it is performed. They can tell where a spell is performed and what spell it was, but there is no way of telling who did it or what wand was used. This is why Harry got in trouble in COS. Even though he wasn't performing any magic, he was the only wizard living in the house, so it was assumed that any magic done there had to be done by him. Once Riddle was at Hogwarts, he was able to get away with his magical experimentation by performing magic far enough away from the orphanage that he wouldn't be suspected.

Well if the MoM can detect what spell was used, wouldn't any Avada Kedavra curse call immediate attention to Aurors, like when Voldemort killed Bertha Jorkins or that old Frank guy? And wouldn't they be able to detect the Horcrux spell as well? Maybe I'm just thinking too much...

Well if the MoM can detect what spell was used, wouldn't any Avada Kedavra curse call immediate attention to Aurors, like when Voldemort killed Bertha Jorkins or that old Frank guy? And wouldn't they be able to detect the Horcrux spell as well? Maybe I'm just thinking too much...

I actually have thought about that for a while now. It seems to me that the MoM should be able to... I mean... the letter that Harry gets in book specifically states "Illegal Hover Charm" and in the fifth states "Patronus Charm in the presence of Muggles". So they can not only tell what magic is performed... but if there were muggles there as well. It seems like they should be able to moniter for unforgiveable curses and horcrux spells.

One question I did have though was how they were able to blame Harry for Dobby's spell in the first place. I mean... JK states herself that House-Elves have a different brand of magic... that is how they are able to apparate in Hogwarts. So shouldn't the MoM know that it was not a wizzard's magic that performed the Hover Charm? Let me know what you think.

It is stated that they can tell what magic, just not who proformed it. If we assume that until a young witch or wizard is aware of the ministry and the restrictions on use of magic, they would possibly note but not act on magic that happens "accidentally" outside a wizarding home or environment. The orphanage had no qualified magical folk, so they wouldn't just send an owl to a young child that obviously wasn't aware of there being a magical community. A certain amount of leadway has to be given in that situation. Telling them before they are old enough for school or to understand the law would make secrecy pretty hard to maintain.

I agree with the other posters. I dont think magic done before age 11 and the entrance into school would be counted against them. That would be an awful amount of work for the MoM because as we have seen with Harry whilst he was underage (and before entering Hogwarts) he did a lot of magic and it was all driven by extremes in emotional situations.

i would assume it was the same as with harry when he was younger and he had instances when he used magic without intention or to his knowledge. so when riddle used magic in his younger years it was ignored just the same. or there could have been a wizard at the orphanage(which i doubt) but how knows?

isnt it true that riddle did not use his own wand when he commited those murders at his father's house? since he was probably using the wand of someone who was of age, maybe the ministry could not detect that it was an underage wizard who was performing the spell.

I think that unintentional magic will not be penalized. It was said that most wizards can do unintentional magic and thus it will be unfair to charge them just because they did some magic unintentionally.

Also, I believe it is only when you attend Hogwarts (or some other magic school) that you will be monitered closely.

isnt it true that riddle did not use his own wand when he commited those murders at his father's house? since he was probably using the wand of someone who was of age, maybe the ministry could not detect that it was an underage wizard who was performing the spell.
You make a very good point. I hadn't thought of that before but it makes a lot of sense.

isnt it true that riddle did not use his own wand when he commited those murders at his father's house? since he was probably using the wand of someone who was of age, maybe the ministry could not detect that it was an underage wizard who was performing the spell.

The ministry did detect when Voldemort killed his father and grandfather. The blame fell on Morfin Gaunt since he happened to be the only wizard living in the area who also had a history of antagonism with muggles. Voldemort also had the forethought to steal Morfin's wand and use it to commit the murders. He also tampered with Morfin's mind to further cement the idea that Morfin had committed the murders.

Firstly, it is only magic performed by someone aged 11 and over which is monitored, as many others have said Harry got away with several instances without getting into trouble for it. It's once they learn how to control it.

Secondly, Tom lived in London which had many other witches and wizards, probably in neighbouring towns. So it would have to be assumed that an "of age" wizard had performed the magic.

I agree. No one noticed that magic. When Harry was disiplined, someone was watching him for any signs of magic use.

I dont think they send letter when you use magic when you are under 11 years old. Remember; Harry used accidental magic when he was younger and never got a letter. :)

Can someone tell me why no ministry letters were sent to the orphanage if Tom Riddle was performing underage magic, even it if was without a wand?
Or does underage mean 11+ from when you start hogwarts as you're too uneducated to know when to use magic
If there is no explaination, does it mean there was an adult wizard living at the orphanage?
I think there were several reasons:
1)The ministry assumes that young children who do magic do so unintentionally and are too young to know how to control it. As we know, that wasn't the case with Tom, who was using his powers to bully his fellow orphans, but the ministry didn't know that.
2)As he was raised by muggles, he didn't know there were any rules against underage magic, so he couldn't be charged for breaking a law he didn't know existed.
3)The ministry wouldn't send a letter to the orphanage, because it's a muggle orphanage and therefore it would be an offence under the statue of secrecy.

I agree that children under 11 are not monitored.

When Voldemort killed Bertha he was in Albania and the MoM of GB has no influence there and maybe the albanian ministry has not so many laws and controll mechanisms.

Of course, the ministry can detect the Avada Kedavra, but I believe that the Death Eaters and Voldemort are used to disappearing quickly after they used the Avada Kedavra.

As for the horcrux-spell: maybe it´s not registered at the ministry and they have no means to detect it. Above all I believe there are ways to disguise magic, something a wizard like Voldemort is surely able to do.

isnt it true that riddle did not use his own wand when he commited those murders at his father's house? since he was probably using the wand of someone who was of age, maybe the ministry could not detect that it was an underage wizard who was performing the spell.

According to DD the MoM can detect when magic is used, but not who actually did it. That is why Harry was blamed for Dobby's spell and DD further explained that it is left to parents to enforce the law in their homes as it is impossible to tell if an unqualified witch or wizard is donig magic in a wizarding home as there are qualified witch/wizards in the house.
Using Morphin's wand was part of the frame job, but not neccessary to hide his being unqualified as a wizard lived nearby. If it were neccessary, he wouldn't have been able to stupify Morphin before he took his wand.

Also, I believe it is only when you attend Hogwarts (or some other magic school) that you will be monitered closely.


So we're told, but...even that seems iffy. We "saw" a teenage Snape shooting down flies with his wand in what I presume was his Muggle bedroom back home. And Petunia said that Lily did odd bits of magic (turning teacups into rats) over summers and holidays. Unless the same restrictions weren't in place in Snape's and Lily's day? *ponders*

As said before, they could monitor the spells, and their location, but could never directly link it to the person doing said spell.

This would make sense if we look at the instance where Dobby arrives unannounced at Pivet drive, splashes some chocolate pudding, and Harry gets blamed for it. There should be no other wizards in the area, as it is a muggle neighborhood, and so the thought is...well, who else could have done it?

So, when V performed the AK curse while still an underage wizard, they would only know that one occurred, and not who conjured it. Since V doesn't have a direct link to the locations where he performed said AK no one would know it was him.

There is, of course, a problem with this... Why then doesn't harry get blamed for all sorts of other things at Pivet drive. Dumbledore has practiced magic there, and so have the Weasley's. This, however, wasn't underage magic, which might be the only magic that is traceable.

Same reason the Dursleys never got any Ministry letters when Harry levitated to the top of the school, shrunk his jumper, grew all his hair back overnight, or turned his teacher's wig blue.

I think you may only get into trouble for Underage Magic when you start at school. Even look at the Quiddich World Cup, the little girl playing with the slug, or boy, I forget, but burst it, and the parents came running out saying "Don't touch Daddy's Wand!" So, why weren't the ministry officals swarming then? When Harry asked (I forget who he asked) about why he got into trouble with Dobby when he did the magic, the person said that the Ministry can't figure out WHO did it, just that it happened, so parents were responsible for keeping tabs on their children, and controlling them.

Also, it might have to do with finally getting your own wand? But that doesn't make sense either, because the Ministry knew about Harrys Aunt in PoA, and he didn't use a wand then.

You only get in trouble for using magic at school - Dumbledore said to Harry that Tom's powers were "not the random experiments of young wizards," which implies that young wizards are almost expected to use their magical powers in some way or another because they have not learned to control them, and are ooften even unaware that they are using them.

Neville, for example, was dropped off a balcony and bounced, and he didn't get a warning. Harry managed to land on the school roof and regrow back half of his hair before he turned 11. Once a witch or wizard is registered as going to Hogwarts, then I think the Ministry tracks their magic use; however, the "random experiments of young wizards" are not something that can be controlled, and usually the user isn't even aware what he or she is doing.

Jo said that Lilly tried out how far she could go with underage magic.
And at home Snape can shoot down flies, because his mom is a witch. So the ministry thinks it´s her. (What´s the spell for shooting down flies?)

The Ministry has stated that they "monitored events closley" in Harry's neighborhood, simply because of who he was. There also were no witches or wizards in the area. That's doubtless not the case in London, at an orphanage the Ministry would have had no special reason to keep an eye on.

I think as long as it's not purposeful, like Harry did to grow his hair back and make the glass vanish, its ok. He didn't have a wand so that may have something to do with it was well. Maybe the Ministry can only register when magic is used with the help of a wand to focus it. Also, Hermione had said in book 1 that she had tried a few simple spells herself and they had all worked, so maybe if they are unaware of the policy they ignore it?