James Potter: Character Analysis

No even I don't think it was one way,but James treating Snape the same(or worse ) just puts him on the same level as Snape for me,he's not better IMO.Also there's the unresolved(and never will be resolved issue) of who stared it all.Lily doesn't exactly take sides with the marauders though.

I agree - they appeared in the same light to me as well, but it wasn't a negative light for either of them. Of course we know much more about Snape's character, so we could analyse it much more effectively overall. That is why I don't like to base James' character on this one scene.

So much of what we know about James' character is speculative. However, I think of things like his pouring over books and cauldrons for 3 years with Sirius, attempting to become an animagi - all the while keeping Remus' spirits up after his transformations. And Sirius landing on his door step one day after running away from home and him taking him in - those kinds of things, and other little tid bits we know, do give some balance to his character for me.

I agree - they appeared in the same light to me as well, but it wasn't a negative light for either of them. Of course we know much more about Snape's character, so we could analyse it much more effectively overall. That is why I don't like to base James' character on this one scene.

I agree about this. I would go as far as to say that not everybody is going to like everyone else. Some people hold to the standard that if someone treats them kindly, then they can't judge the person for past transgressions and move on from there (barring murder or equally heinous crimes). Some people hold to the belief that it serves someone right to get hurt if they choose to be friends with people with bad reputations. Some people believe that there are marks that "never come off" and some believe that slates can be wiped clean. How do our biases effect what we see and are willing to believe...and what does all that mean for the object of those relationships? Should these people never get the benefit of the doubt? Should these people go out of their way to rectify their mistakes or is simply leading a better life enough atonement? Does it really matter what we think?

I agree about this. I would go as far as to say that not everybody is going to like everyone else. Some people hold to the standard that if someone treats them kindly, then they can't judge the person for past transgressions and move on from there (barring murder or equally heinous crimes). Some people hold to the belief that it serves someone right to get hurt if they choose to be friends with people with bad reputations. Some people believe that there are marks that "never come off" and some believe that slates can be wiped clean. How do our biases effect what we see and are willing to believe...and what does all that mean for the object of those relationships? Should these people never get the benefit of the doubt? Should these people go out of their way to rectify their mistakes or is simply leading a better life enough atonement? Does it really matter what we think?

Good points :) That is exactly why I read everything about background characters (James, Sirius, Snape) in an objective manner. We only see what the protagonist (Harry) shows us. In determining James' characteristics, we can call them as we see them - but we have no idea how he evolved characteristically in minute detail.

We know that he became a fine father in that his child was happy and the impact of the first year of Harry's life appeared to help sustain him and pull many of his parent's characteristics into his own persona. We know he was a good friend, based on reports from his friends and we know that he had pranking tendencies, compassion and could be arrogant and a bully when around Snape. There are a few other characteristics we can ascertain, but we simply didn't see enough of James' life to make substantial judgments overall imo.

We barely get any memories of him. Here are the only memories that include James:

1. The train ride to Hogwarts.
2. Snape's Worst Memory
3. Halloween of 1981
4. James coming out of LV's wand
5. Into the Forest Again

Since we don't get to see much of James, naturally the fans are left to interpret their view on James's character. Some may dislike him for his actions in SWM while others may not hold it against them. People have a right to their own opinions.

Personally, I don't hold SWM against him. I've been in both Snape's and James's position before. The person whom I was bullied by and I have changed since then. So, of course I can't hold James's actions against him. I am a completely different person from who I was when I bullied someone, so how can I be mad at James for his actions? Remus and Sirius said he changed, and since nothing is said to prove otherwise, I trust their judgement. (But like I said before, I can understand why others may disagree on the matter of whether or not he matured.)

In my opinion, JKR's main intention for showing James in his behavior in SWM was to make Harry realize James was just as human as anyone else. Before that point Harry admires James and doesn't believe any insult thrown at James. However, after Harry's talk with Sirius and Remus, Harry understood that James changed. Harry's love for James was much more mature after SWM, I think.

Just my thoughts! :)

I agree and I think we can add some of the pictures we saw (pictures say a 1000 words). James playing with Harry, James with his family and Sirius at the christening; James sitting proudly among those in the Order during the first war. They all give us a glance at some of the other portions of his life from which we can make certian assumptions about his character.

Even, for that matter, James idolising his father enough to want to go into the same House at school (we never found out which of them Mrs Potter went to). It's still quite sweet at times.

I think James would have done well in Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff too. But you are right, he wanted to go where his dad was. Hard work didn't seem to bother him (Hufflepuff) and he was pretty smart (best in his year/figured out animagus). But he also had the characteristics for Gryffindor, so it worked out well.

I think James would have done well in Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff too. But you are right, he wanted to go where his dad was. Hard work didn't seem to bother him (Hufflepuff) and he was pretty smart (best in his year/figured out animagus). But he also had the characteristics for Gryffindor, so it worked out well.

You could also make an argument for Slytherin (Cunning, with all of his pranks).

I think that James was like many characters in that he had characteristics of all the houses. Gryffindor just fit him best. Plus, it was where he wanted to go, and the sorting hat does take that into consideration.

He wouldn't have ended up in Slytherin because he hated the house. I think he would have been happy in Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff, but by his and Sirius's attitudes after the DADA OWL, they didn't really seem like the kind of people who really worked to get good grades - they were just really intelligent (I'm really jealous of people like that, lol). So that doesn't really work out for Hufflepuff, and he seemed a bit too reckless with his pranks to fit in with the rule-abiding Ravenclaws. So I think he was pretty well suited for Gryffindor.

You could also make an argument for Slytherin (Cunning, with all of his pranks).

Yeah, true he does have the cunning that Slytherins have. But he wouldn't have ended in Slytherin because that was the one house he really didn't want to get into.

He wouldn't have ended up in Slytherin because he hated the house. I think he would have been happy in Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff, but by his and Sirius's attitudes after the DADA OWL, they didn't really seem like the kind of people who really worked to get good grades - they were just really intelligent (I'm really jealous of people like that, lol). So that doesn't really work out for Hufflepuff, and he seemed a bit too reckless with his pranks to fit in with the rule-abiding Ravenclaws. So I think he was pretty well suited for Gryffindor.

Yeah, true he does seem naturally intelligent. But he is hardworking at times, I think. He and Sirius worked for years in order to become unregistered Animagi.
James also has the loyalty that Hufflepuffs are known for, too.

Anyway, I do think Gryffindor suits him best. Even though he may have some qualities of the other houses, James is really bold and loves taking risks, so I think Gryffindor was the best place for him to be.

Yeah, true he does seem naturally intelligent. But he is hardworking at times, I think. He and Sirius worked for years in order to become unregistered Animagi.
James also has the loyalty that Hufflepuffs are known for, too.

That's very true. He would have done well in Hufflepuff, I think. But he was incredibly brave, and wanted to be in Gryffindor... so I think it was an easy choice for the hat, really. ;)

I agree, James appeared ready to confront the hat with his choice, lol.

I also believe that James only belonged in Gryffindor. James had all Gryffindor traits, while lacking Hufflepuffs hard working trait, Ravenclaws wisdom trait (for not seeing past the All-Slytherins-are-Evil idea at school), and Slytherins ambition trait. You could argue that James had those three traits as well, but they weren't always showed (hope that makes sense).

I also believe that James only belonged in Gryffindor. James had all Gryffindor traits, while lacking Hufflepuffs hard working trait, Ravenclaws wisdom trait (for not seeing past the All-Slytherins-are-Evil idea at school), and Slytherins ambition trait. You could argue that James had those three traits as well, but they weren't always showed (hope that makes sense).

Yes it makes sense :) I think he was hardworking - like when he spent three years with Sirius figuring out how to become an Animagus and also when he battled with the Order in the years following Hogwarts. And he was smart according to his old professor as well. However, I agree with you, his Gryffindor traits were displayed for us more in canon.

It just struck me that Harry named his first son James. He had his doubts about James after witnessing SWM. His respect and admiration for Dumbledore and Snape had increased tenfold by the end of DH. Yet when Harry was at his most vulnerable position, when he needed the support more than ever before, it was his father that came back to him in the forest. Dumbledore and Snape who had done so much for him did not.
Harry named his first son James because James meant more to him than anyone else.

Than anyone else male, anyway. I think Lily meant a great deal to Harry as well.

The account of the Stone from the Tale of the Three Brothers seems to suggest that the user compels the people he wants to see to come back. The brother brought the woman he had loved back, and she was not happy about it. From this I conclude that the four people Harry saw, were the four he wanted to see. (Unlike the brother, he was about to join them, so it was a 'better' use of the Stone).

Which suggests Harry still loved his father, but this is hardly surprising, he still loved his father after the SWM chapter of OotP. He simply came to realize that James was not the perfect idol he had once imagined, and behaved in ways as a teen that Harry could not then, or ever, condone.

Than anyone else male, anyway. I think Lily meant a great deal to Harry as well.

The account of the Stone from the Tale of the Three Brothers seems to suggest that the user compels the people he wants to see to come back. The brother brought the woman he had loved back, and she was not happy about it. From this I conclude that the four people Harry saw, were the four he wanted to see. (Unlike the brother, he was about to join them, so it was a 'better' use of the Stone).

Which suggests Harry still loved his father, but this is hardly surprising, he still loved his father after the SWM chapter of OotP. He simply came to realize that James was not the perfect idol he had once imagined, and behaved in ways as a teen that Harry could not then, or ever, condone.


Beautifully written, Ziggy! That was one of the most beautiful scenes I've ever read. I thought it was perfect. If you have a chance, do listen to Jim Dale read it. Dale did an outstanding job of bringing the emotion of that moment to life.

Getting back on topic, I think characterwise, James is the type of person to be an extraordinary good friend. He is incredibly trusting of his friends according to Remus and his actions proved that. He also goes the extra mile for them, as he showed by working with Sirius to become an animagi and helping Peter do so. He shows them compassion - as was shown in his having Sirius come and live with him when he ran away from home, and he shows love for them all, which is shown in the loyalty and love they retain for him even after his death.

I respectfully disagree, about Peter at any rate. I don't think James was a good friend to him at all. James was flattered by and accepted his sycophantic admiration, and (unlike Sirius) at least refrained from belittling him, but he clearly bought into the whole 'Peter is worthless' thing we kept hearing from everyone. (To the point that he chose Peter as his SK because 'no one could possibly expect it').

The Worst Memory chapter, showing the interactions of James and Sirius with Peter, was very illuminating in my opinion. For me, it answered the question of why Peter turned traitor. I don't think Peter believed that his friends would die for him. And regardless of whether or not they would have, I find Peter's belief rational based on the way his friends treated him.

Than anyone else male, anyway. I think Lily meant a great deal to Harry as well.

The account of the Stone from the Tale of the Three Brothers seems to suggest that the user compels the people he wants to see to come back. The brother brought the woman he had loved back, and she was not happy about it. From this I conclude that the four people Harry saw, were the four he wanted to see. (Unlike the brother, he was about to join them, so it was a 'better' use of the Stone).

Which suggests Harry still loved his father, but this is hardly surprising, he still loved his father after the SWM chapter of OotP. He simply came to realize that James was not the perfect idol he had once imagined, and behaved in ways as a teen that Harry could not then, or ever, condone.

I agree. I think Harry called his father back because he wished to have the love, comfort and courage he could derive from him at that moment. But he loved his mum very much as well. I myself don't attempt to grade Harry's love (i.e., he loved his mum more than his dad, etc.) because every individual loves another for who they are and what has developed between them. He loved many, all in a special way that was unique to the individual imo, through his interactions and relationship with them.

James in many ways was a reflection of his son for me - Harry remarked after viewing SWM that no one deserved the treatment Snape had received unless it was someone loathed like Malfoy or somebody who deserved it. I think he had the capacity to understand it, even if he didn't like what he saw. It was something he himself might do if it were Malfoy, but at that point he didn't relate his relationship with Malfoy to that of his father with Snape. DD later made that clear to him and that is likely what finally allowed him to understand his father a little better. And indeed, later Harry did try out an unknown spell against Malfoy without even giving a thought to how much damage it could cause. I think that was a personal lesson of a similar nature.

But I think it is all a part of maturing - you realize no one is perfect, not even yourself. I think that was something even James would have had to of learned back in his day. That is what I mean when I say that Harry in many ways serves as a reflection of James character wise for me in the story. :)

James merely said 'all right, Snivellus?' and Snape drew his wand. James removed the wand from his hand and Snape dove for it when Sirius intervened.

It began like school yard fighting does and then built up from there. Snape starts cursing and you get the classic 'wash your mouth out with soap'. Lily interrupts and Snape when he recovers does not run away like a child who is bullied and escapes as soon as possible, he takes hold of his wand when James is inattentive and strikes back with his dark arts curse. It goes on and on.

I agree about the escalation, though the description of Snape as 'twitchy', and the pleased anticipation of Sirius, James, and Peter, as well as Lupin's diapproval, all suggest that more was on the agenda than verbal taunting. I think Snape drew because he had reason to expect an attack. But I agree his continued resistance probably incited the attack to worsen.

What is in no way normal about the scene is that James is not acting alone. I'm sorry, but two boys ganging up on one, eiter with magic or with fists, is not a fight, it is bullying in my book. Especially once Snape was immobilized. Even if, in some scene noone has ever referred to in canon, Snape had in the past bullied James, it does not change what we were shown.

Lily tells us in PTA that he was arrogant, but she never calls him a bully. I think if that were his main characteristic, she would have mentioned it - in fact, I doubt seriously if she would bother defending him at all if he were Bullying Snape constantly without provocation.

'You think you're funny,' she said coldly. 'But you're just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter. Leave him alone.'

For the record...and this scene was in Prince's Tale. Harry simply did not have the stomach to watch it again. Because, like his mother (and me for that matter) he did not see it as simple 'boys will be boys' fighting.

You could also make an argument for Slytherin (Cunning, with all of his pranks).

Pureblood, as well. ;)

I agree about the escalation, though the description of Snape as 'twitchy', and the pleased anticipation of Sirius, James, and Peter, as well as Lupin's diapproval, all suggest that more was on the agenda than verbal taunting. I think Snape drew because he had reason to expect an attack. But I agree his continued resistance probably incited the attack to worsen.

What is in no way normal about the scene is that James is not acting alone. I'm sorry, but two boys ganging up on one, eiter with magic or with fists, is not a fight, it is bullying in my book. Especially once Snape was immobilized. Even if, in some scene noone has ever referred to in canon, Snape had in the past bullied James, it does not change what we were shown.



'You think you're funny,' she said coldly. 'But you're just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter. Leave him alone.'

For the record...and this scene was in Prince's Tale. Harry simply did not have the stomach to watch it again. Because, like his mother (and me for that matter) he did not see it as simple 'boys will be boys' fighting.

You posted so quickly Z! lol. See my post above. But I apologize, I was mistaken about Lily not calling James a bullying toe rag. I was reading the one scene and didn't think to check the others. At this point I don't remember what we were talking about; it is a post from a bit ago. But I concede the bullying point. :)

I respectfully disagree, about Peter at any rate. I don't think James was a good friend to him at all. James was flattered by and accepted his sycophantic admiration, and (unlike Sirius) at least refrained from belittling him, but he clearly bought into the whole 'Peter is worthless' thing we kept hearing from everyone. (To the point that he chose Peter as his SK because 'no one could possibly expect it').

The Worst Memory chapter, showing the interactions of James and Sirius with Peter, was very illuminating in my opinion. For me, it answered the question of why Peter turned traitor. I don't think Peter believed that his friends would die for him. And regardless of whether or not they would have, I find Peter's belief rational based on the way his friends treated him.

Now we're going to disagree. Peter was a sycophant, always seeking a bit of reflected glory, like a moth flitting around a flame. Surely, you've known people who always seem to be for sale to the highest bidder... the groupies and assorted hangers-on. His choices were not the fault of James or Sirius any more than Snape's were. I think Peter was intended to represent the "bad" Gryffindor in the story.

Many of the comments made about Peter were made in retrospect, once his betrayal was known. It would color how they would characterize the rationale behind choosing Peter as SK, years later, once they knew the truth. I'm sure the choice was characterized at the time as Peter being the least likely choice since Sirius would have been far more likely. I don't think Lupin was considered, perhaps because of his lycanthropy, and possibly because Peter spread distrust as a way to ensure he was selected.

In SWM we see them making jibes at Peter. Friends make all kinds of remarks to each other, in friendly teasing, that would seem to be insulting if it hadn't been directed at another friend. Sirius criticizes James, too, telling him that Lily thinks he's conceited.

Harry and Ron do it all the time, as do most of the Weasley's to each other.

Guys, stay on topic. This thread is meant to discuss James- this (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=107881) is the appropriate thread to discuss Wormtail's character in.

You posted so quickly Z! lol. See my post above. But I apologize, I was mistaken about Lily not calling James a bullying toe rag. I was reading the one scene and didn't think to check the others. At this point I don't remember what we were talking about; it is a post from a bit ago. But I concede the bullying point. :)

I was on a business trip for a week, and had limited time for CoS (tragic, yes...) hence my replies to posts as far as two pages back, sorry folks! Since some other threads I post on can go through two pages in a day, I figured it was still OK to go back that far.

That the incident was a case of bullying was my only point. I can see James was a doting father, a brave Order member, and always had the 'right' political leanings. It is just also quite clear to me that, as a fifth year, he was, among other things, a bully. (Probably as soon as he came to school, actually, but the case is harder to make. I don't think it is a coincidence that he echoes Draco Malfoy's opinions on being Sorted into the wrong House, I think it is an indication that they shared some common traits and went in different directions owing to a variety of reasons).

I was on a business trip for a week, and had limited time for CoS (tragic, yes...) hence my replies to posts as far as two pages back, sorry folks! Since some other threads I post on can go through two pages in a day, I figured it was still OK to go back that far.

That the incident was a case of bullying was my only point. I can see James was a doting father, a brave Order member, and always had the 'right' political leanings. It is just also quite clear to me that, as a fifth year, he was, among other things, a bully. (Probably as soon as he came to school, actually, but the case is harder to make. I don't think it is a coincidence that he echoes Draco Malfoy's opinions on being Sorted into the wrong House, I think it is an indication that they shared some common traits and went in different directions owing to a variety of reasons).

I respect your opinion, but my impression from the reading didn't leave me feeling it was that simple. I truly feel that for the most part, James pulled Fred/George like pranks and reserved any 'bullying' for Snape and others who enacted dark magic pranks. It would be the type of retaliatory action I would see him taking against such magic as Sirius indicated that James hated the dark arts.

In a way, because they were all kids, I kind of look at the entire thing with a jaundiced eye - in all seriousness. I mean even when James hung Snape upside down - it was with a spell Snape invented that was being used on a very frequent basis at that time. That is not to exhonerate James' use of it, just to point out its popularity and that a majority of the students were following the same behavior.

Now you made a very valid point about two on one. But in all honesty, I am wary of passing judgment even on that because in the 7 year period that they were all in school together, is it really realistic that Snape never asked one of his buddies to join him against James and Sirius? It just seems far-fetched that he would not during all of that time unless Snape was a cowering, frightened child who ran away at the first sign of the 'bullies' - then maybe. However, objectively speaking, that was not even the case in SWM - he remained when he was being ignored by both James and Sirius and struck back (absolutely expected behavior).

The upshot is, I don't feel a personal need to defend either James' or Snape's behavior in SWM because of how I look at it - mutual hexing between kids. They were all wrong to behave in a manner that was against the rules.

I am not certain how much you meant to tie in James' character with Draco's. But I don't think they were much a like; there is too much of Harry in James imo for that to be the case. For example, I don't think Draco would become friends with a werewolf, let alone spend 3 years researching to become an animagi to keep his friend company. Hagrid liked James, so it is not possible that James showed him the distain that Draco did, etc. So the similar remark they made (and one that Snape and Ron echoed) I think was just to show that students came to Hogwarts with fixed ideas about the various houses.

Nonetheless, that is why I think James' character in this regard is a little more complex that the view you suggested. I do respect your view though. :)

For the record...and this scene was in Prince's Tale. Harry simply did not have the stomach to watch it again. Because, like his mother (and me for that matter) he did not see it as simple 'boys will be boys' fighting.

I meant to being this point up too.Really if it wasn't that bad Harry wouldn't have minded seeing it again,but as it's specifically stated in the narrative we see was.

I am not certain how much you meant to tie in James' character with Draco's. But I don't think they were much a like; there is too much of Harry in James imo for that to be the case.

I see the comparison trying to be drawn.Many people stated that Harry and Draco simply didn't like each other,I don't doubt they didn't but I personally believe if Draco hadn't spent the whole first year degrading Harry and Ron whenever he got the chance they would have just disliked him the same as any other Slytherin.Disliking someone is perfectly normal but developing an enmity requires an effort on one part.I see that this scene was to shed light on the Snape/James dynamic,though unfortunately it's still not enough to be used as canon(as it's perceived differently)

Disliking someone is perfectly normal but developing an enmity requires an effort on one part.I see that this scene was to shed light on the Snape/James dynamic,though unfortunately it's still not enough to be used as canon(as it's perceived differently)

I think it requires two. No way will I ever be convinced that Snape hadn't done plenty in his own right to earn James' enmity. We have seven books filled with passages of Snape's nastiness to fall back on. He was no innocent schoolboy who was picked on continually.

All things being equal and knowing the "nasty piece of work" Snape truly was, it is no surprise that James despised him.

All things being equal and knowing the "nasty piece of work" Snape truly was, it is no surprise that James despised him.

I agree. Assuming that Snape didn't undergo a complete change of personality - and canon tells us that he didn't, I am unable to blame James for disliking Snape. Then there was the Lily aspect too - Jo said (in so many words) that James was jealous of Snape because both of them were in love with Lily. Now I don't condone attacking Snape at all, but I don't believe James constantly bullied an innocent victim here!

I would agree that they hated one another. Another thing we know about James is that he was a busy lad when he was at Hogwarts. I don't think he gave Snape any thought whatsoever except in the odd moment when they spoke about Snape following them around or when they met. James studied as he did quite well in school and he also was on the Quidditch team which meant practices. Further, he spent some portion of his free time for 3 years figuring out how to become an Animagus with Sirius. And that is just the stuff we know about. Like Harry, he would have had to of attended classes and all those little sessions the school put on (dance instruction, dueling, etc). And of course they liked pulling pranks which would take some time as it did Fred and George - and serve detention for them which took more time yet. Plus I am sure he and his friends hung out doing stuff from time to time (lake swim, hike, etc). So I think that James only met up with Snape on occassion and a hex battle would ensue between them, depending on if either wanted to start one, and otherwise likely avoided one another.

I think it requires two. No way will I ever be convinced that Snape hadn't done plenty in his own right to earn James' enmity. We have seven books filled with passages of Snape's nastiness to fall back on. He was no innocent schoolboy who was picked on continually.

All things being equal and knowing the "nasty piece of work" Snape truly was, it is no surprise that James despised him.

My reference to an effort on one part was actually about Harry and Draco.I put most of the blame of that on Draco becasue I really do believe that Harry wouldn't have been that concerned with him.
As for James and Snape I still need to know who started it all(because someone IMO had too),but unfortunately it seems we'll never know.

So I think that James only met up with Snape on occassion and a hex battle would ensue between them, depending on if either wanted to start one, and otherwise likely avoided one another.
Actually SWM shows us that it was otherwise.By this time they probably hated each other but I still believe there had to be an active effort to develop such an enmity.

Guys, please stay on topic- which is character analysis of James.

But in all honesty, I am wary of passing judgment even on that because in the 7 year period that they were all in school together, is it really realistic that Snape never asked one of his buddies to join him against James and Sirius?

It is irrelevant. If Snape ever did that (and we have no evidence he did) he bullied James, and that is a matter for another thread. It also would not change what happened in SWM. It was still two boys ganging up on another boy, who was doing nothing to them at the time.


It just seems far-fetched that he would not during all of that time unless Snape was a cowering, frightened child who ran away at the first sign of the 'bullies' - then maybe. However, objectively speaking, that was not even the case in SWM - he remained when he was being ignored by both James and Sirius and struck back (absolutely expected behavior).

And I loved him for it.:D Just one example that there is a range of actions between being 'a cowering, frightened child who ran away at the first sign of the 'bullies'' and being a bully. Which Snape may or may not have been as a child, it is both irrelevant and off-topic.


The upshot is, I don't feel a personal need to defend either James' or Snape's behavior in SWM because of how I look at it - mutual hexing between kids. They were all wrong to behave in a manner that was against the rules.

Whereas I feel no need to defend it because is it indefensible in my eyes.

So the similar remark they made (and one that Snape and Ron echoed) I think was just to show that students came to Hogwarts with fixed ideas about the various houses.

I think it shows that like Draco, he was a pampered, pureblood, arrogant, and opinioinated little rich kid as a first year. I think that is also the point of the contrast we are given with Snape, James looking well-cared-for, and all that.

And, since you insist on bringing other characters - Draco did face a cursed fire in an attempt to save the life of his friend, so I don't think a comparison to James on that dimension is unwarranted. Draco could also be a brave and loyal friend.

Nonetheless, that is why I think James' character in this regard is a little more complex that the view you suggested. I do respect your view though. :)

I do not find my view simplistic.

Guys, please stay on topic- which is character analysis of James.

Polite friendly character analysis of James.

Whereas I feel no need to defend it because is it indefensible in my eyes.

That's a bit harsh, isn't it? James had already saved Snape from the tunnel not so long before SWM, and we know that Sirius was highly annoyed by Snape's many attempts to find out what they were doing and perhaps get them kicked out of school. We know that Snape had been cursing people during his years at Hogwarts. We have word of mouth and the incontrovertible fact that certain spells of Snape's own invention were familiar to the other students. We also have seven books worth of Snape's spectacularly nasty behavior. I think we have enough to draw a conclusion that Snape gave as good as he got... just not in that particular incident.

There is also the fact that the other students cheered James and Sirius in SWM. That says to me that Snape had already made his bed hard at Hogwarts. They saw James and Sirius as the good guys.

I think it shows that like Draco, he was a pampered, pureblood, arrogant, and opinioinated little rich kid as a first year. I think that is also the point of the contrast we are given with Snape, James looking well-cared-for, and all that.

Looking well-cared-for and not liking Slytherin doesn't make James pampered or arrogant and opinionated. He was a pureblood, yes, but he certainly was not longing to join the House of the Purebloods at Hogwarts - Slytherin - nor was he lording his status as a pureblood over any of the other students.

And, since you insist on bringing other characters - Draco did face a cursed fire in an attempt to save the life of his friend, so I don't think a comparison to James on that dimension is unwarranted. Draco could also be a brave and loyal friend.

Draco saved a friend. James saved an enemy.

As for James and Snape I still need to know who started it all(because someone IMO had too),but unfortunately it seems we'll never know.

Ah, but we do know! :) James started it. Severus and his friend were having a simple conversation about their upcoming Sorting, and James butted in to make a rude remark about Snape's stated House preference. This was the first time they met.

Personally, I don't think 'who started it' is a very useful way to assign fault for a bad relationship that developed over the course of seven years, but James did start it. And Severus retaliated with a rude remark about James' House preference. I don't doubt both did things over those years which irked, hurt, and annoyed the other.

That incident on the train was not enough to bring James and Snape to the point of mutual loathing. I don't think James started it. The Sorting Hat started it when it sorted Lily into Gryffindor.

That's a bit harsh, isn't it?

Not in my opinion, or I would not have written it. :) What would be too harsh is to say that James as a human being is a total write-off because he once did something indefensible. That, I never said (and would not say).

We know that Snape had been cursing people during his years at Hogwarts. We have word of mouth and the incontrovertible fact that certain spells of Snape's own invention were familiar to the other students. We also have seven books worth of Snape's spectacularly nasty behavior. I think we have enough to draw a conclusion that Snape gave as good as he got... just not in that particular incident.

The mods have asked we stay on topic. Severus's activities (and I do not agree with your account of them) are not on topic. I will therefore not address this point, except to repeat that I consider the actions of James Potter in SWM to be bullying more or less by definition, almost regardless of any backstory. Certainly Lily, the best friend of the victim and housemate of the perpetrators (and thus, likely more knowledgeable than you or I of the relevant backstory), seems to agree with me, since it was these actions that prompted her to call James a 'bullying toerag'.

There is also the fact that the other students cheered James and Sirius in SWM. That says to me that Snape had already made his bed hard at Hogwarts. They saw James and Sirius as the good guys.

You have expressed this opinion often on the Snape thread, so I am familiar with it, as you doubtless are familiar with mine. My own life experiences indicate to me that the people being cheered for picking on someone are by no means always in the right, or 'good guys' as you would have it. People can be popular and well-liked, but still be needlesly cruel to some. And a sad truth of human nature is that many will stand by and find it funny.

The books themselves point out examples - in GoF a lot of the school went along with Draco's "Potter Stinks" campaign. Was this because Harry deserved it? I don't think so. Was it because Draco was such a good guy? Again, um, probably not, no offense to any Draco fans present intended. For the same reason, that some people laughed at James' bullying of Severus does not lead me to believe James was a good guy here. I see what he did, and it is clear to me it was not good.


Looking well-cared-for and not liking Slytherin doesn't make James pampered or arrogant and opinionated.

His remark about Slytherin, which precisely echoed Draco's about Huflepuff, makes him both arrogant and opinionated. :) I got the pampered bit in part from interview material - but it fits what is shown in that scene, his look of being 'adored'. The kind of confidence/arrogance James shows, to butt into a conversation like that with a rude and unsolicited opinion, is quite consistent with such a characterization.

Draco saved a friend. James saved an enemy.

My comment was in response to WWB's contrast of James and Draco, by pointing out how good James was to his friend Lupin the werewolf. I was just pointing out that Draco was good to his friend Goyle. Both boys were admirable in this regard. :)

That's a bit harsh, isn't it? James had already saved Snape from the tunnel not so long before SWM, and we know that Sirius was highly annoyed by Snape's many attempts to find out what they were doing and perhaps get them kicked out of school. We know that Snape had been cursing people during his years at Hogwarts. We have word of mouth and the incontrovertible fact that certain spells of Snape's own invention were familiar to the other students. We also have seven books worth of Snape's spectacularly nasty behavior. I think we have enough to draw a conclusion that Snape gave as good as he got... just not in that particular incident.

There is also the fact that the other students cheered James and Sirius in SWM. That says to me that Snape had already made his bed hard at Hogwarts. They saw James and Sirius as the good guys.

I agree entirely.

I think it says a lot that no other student, not one, but Lily, went to Snape's aid... no other fellow Slytherins, no fair Hufflepuffs, no rule-abiding students, etc. Some didn't find the situation all that funny, but they didn't do anything about it. I think a lot of people were either scared of Snape, or greatly disliked him, because of who he hung around with and the Dark Magic they used. I'm not saying what James and Sirius did was right, but it wasn't a case of "oh, there's an unpopular, lonely child - let's attack and humiliate him for no good reason!". ;)


Looking well-cared-for and not liking Slytherin doesn't make James pampered or arrogant and opinionated. He was a pureblood, yes, but he certainly was not longing to join the House of the Purebloods at Hogwarts - Slytherin - nor was he lording his status as a pureblood over any of the other students.

Very true. James may have been a fellow pureblood, but he didn't use it to raise his own status. He clearly hated the whole purity of blood stuff, judging by his reaction to Snape calling Lily a Mudblood - remind anyone of Draco calling Hermione just that, and Ron jumping at him?. I see the Potters as similar to the Weasleys in that respect (maybe they were even considered blood traitors, as well? I'm sure James was, after marrying a Muggleborn).

You know, I think that may be a large part in why James hated Slytherin so much. It was kind of disturbing by how many Slytherins in Harry's time were all for the pureblood status - I mean, the password to their common room was "pureblood" in CoS. In James's time, it was probably much worse, considering Voldemort was rising to power just then, and people would begin to take sides and show their true beliefs on the matter; after Voldemort vanished, it would have been dangerous to show the same kind of behaviour towards Muggleborns, but it was still quite a problem. James would not have wanted to be part of that kind of a house, in my opinion.

It is irrelevant. If Snape ever did that (and we have no evidence he did) he bullied James, and that is a matter for another thread. It also would not change what happened in SWM. It was still two boys ganging up on another boy, who was doing nothing to them at the time. And I loved him for it.:D Just one example that there is a range of actions between being 'a cowering, frightened child who ran away at the first sign of the 'bullies'' and being a bully. Which Snape may or may not have been as a child, it is both irrelevant and off-topic.


Well everyone's ideas are always interesting to me, but I am totally nuetral on this particular point of discussion. In my opinion they were all just a bunch of kids on a playground mutually going at it. So you guys have to decide without me on that one. :)


I think it shows that like Draco, he was a pampered, pureblood, arrogant, and opinioinated little rich kid as a first year. I think that is also the point of the contrast we are given with Snape, James looking well-cared-for, and all that.

Yes, I believe that was the contrast being made; as far as we know, James was handsome and had good hygiene practices. Although, like Harry, he did have that uncontrollable hair! :)

Your remarking that James was 'little' reminds me of another point; in HBP in the reunion scene, Harry was the same height as James (both fully grown). I had always been of the opinion that James was the same height as Sirius - but it seems as if Sirius was more like Ron's height and James was like Harry throughout school.

James was a chaser on the Quidditch team (at least I believe that was his position) - and I had always imagined him as an imposing presence out there. However, his shorter stature, like Harry, would allow him to be fast and agile I suppose. In any case, I figure he was an extra ordinary player based on the awards he received - as shown in the trophy room (and many characters remarked on that fact). Unless I am mistaken, Ginny too played chaser, and she was even shorter and also reported as being an agile player - so that would make sense. :)

I agree entirely.

I think it says a lot that no other student, not one, but Lily, went to Snape's aid... no other fellow Slytherins, no fair Hufflepuffs, no rule-abiding students, etc. Some didn't find the situation all that funny, but they didn't do anything about it. I think a lot of people were either scared of Snape, or greatly disliked him, because of who he hung around with and the Dark Magic they used. I'm not saying what James and Sirius did was right, but it wasn't a case of "oh, there's an unpopular, lonely child - let's attack and humiliate him for no good reason!". ;)

Very true. James may have been a fellow pureblood, but he didn't use it to raise his own status. He clearly hated the whole purity of blood stuff, judging by his reaction to Snape calling Lily a Mudblood - remind anyone of Draco calling Hermione just that, and Ron jumping at him?. I see the Potters as similar to the Weasleys in that respect (maybe they were even considered blood traitors, as well? I'm sure James was, after marrying a Muggleborn).

You know, I think that may be a large part in why James hated Slytherin so much. It was kind of disturbing by how many Slytherins in Harry's time were all for the pureblood status - I mean, the password to their common room was "pureblood" in CoS. In James's time, it was probably much worse, considering Voldemort was rising to power just then, and people would begin to take sides and show their true beliefs on the matter; after Voldemort vanished, it would have been dangerous to show the same kind of behaviour towards Muggleborns, but it was still quite a problem. James would not have wanted to be part of that kind of a house, in my opinion.

This also fits my characterization of James. Well said :tu:. I had forgotten about the 'blood traitor' talk. That would have been something that the DEs and other blood superiority believers would have thought of James once he began dating Lily. I have a feeling that they would have said that of James nonetheless because of his stance against the dark arts, Voldemort and the popular superior blood line theory, all of which were of interest to many of the Slytherins at that time. However, I think James had a strong back bone and like Ron, would have been proud of being thought of that way - it fit with his outlook of considering everyone equal.

Ah, but we do know! :) James started it. Severus and his friend were having a simple conversation about their upcoming Sorting, and James butted in to make a rude remark about Snape's stated House preference. This was the first time they met.

Personally, I don't think 'who started it' is a very useful way to assign fault for a bad relationship that developed over the course of seven years, but James did start it. And Severus retaliated with a rude remark about James' House preference. I don't doubt both did things over those years which irked, hurt, and annoyed the other.

I'd go with James as well,but the train scene is still not enough to use in a debate and say 'here ,we have it in canon' as it's perceived differently.To me it is relevant who started it.The train scene was not enough for a strong enmity,it was enough just to find the other annoying or dislikable.Something had to happen later,a constant effort on one part.Again I use the example of Harry and Draco,had he had not persisted,the trio would have been unconcerned with him.

I think it says a lot that no other student, not one, but Lily, went to Snape's aid... no other fellow Slytherins, no fair Hufflepuffs, no rule-abiding students, etc. I'm not saying what James and Sirius did was right, but it wasn't a case of "oh, there's an unpopular, lonely child - let's attack and humiliate him for no good reason!". ;)

Personally I wouldn't expect anyone from other houses to defend him,he was a Slytherin,so his not being defended had more to do with that.The seven books have shown that all three houses have a mutual dislike for Slytherin.But it was an effort for humiliation,there was a good crowd around,they wanted it to be public.

as far as we know, James was handsome and had good hygiene practices. Although, like Harry, he did have that uncontrollable hair! :)

James wasn't stated to be handsome,and he didn't have uncontrollable hair did he?He kept messing up it.

James wasn't stated to be handsome,and he didn't have uncontrollable hair did he?He kept messing up it.

I agree, James was never described as handsome. This would have been rather surprising since we see him through Harry's eyes. Harry considers him to be the spitting image of himself (except for the eyes) and Harry is far from being vain, so he would not describe his father and therefore himself as being handsome.

But James has the same uncontrollable hair as his son, only he seems to be of the opinion that especially unruly hair is cool. :lol: Contrary to his son, he had a family who cared for him, so trying to be a little rebellious by messing up one's hair is understandable. He also seemed to think that it would make him more attractive to Lily.

I agree, James was never described as handsome. This would have been rather surprising since we see him through Harry's eyes. Harry considers him to be the spitting image of himself (except for the eyes) and Harry is far from being vain, so he would not describe his father and therefore himself as being handsome.

True.Also Sirius is constantly referred to as handsome to let us know he was so,so are handful of other characters.Not that it means that all the other are bad-looking,but there were some who were specifically better looking then others.

But James has the same uncontrollable hair as his son, only he seems to be of the opinion that especially unruly hair is cool. :lol: Contrary to his son, he had a family who cared for him, so trying to be a little rebellious by messing up one's hair is understandable. He also seemed to think that it would make him more attractive to Lily.

The thing is(I have no idea if this is evenscientifically possible :lol:)I thought James hair was normal and his constantly messing his hair up had some how transferred down to Harry leaving his hair permentaly messy.If James hair was that untidy then surely he wouldn't have to keep messing it up himself.

The thing is(I have no idea if this is evenscientifically possible )I thought James hair was normal and his constantly messing his hair up had some how transferred down to Harry leaving his hair permentaly messy.If James hair was that untidy then surely he wouldn't have to keep messing it up himself.

Excitement exploded in the pit of his stomach: it was as though he was looking at himself but with deliberate mistakes. James's eyes were hazel, his nose was slightly longer than Harry's and there was no scar on his forehead, but they had the same thin face, same mouth, same eyebrows; James's hair stuck up at the back exactly as Harry's did, his hands could have been Harry's and Harry could tell that, when James stood up, they would be within an inch of each other in height.

I highlighted the relevant part. I think Lily understood very well why he kept messing up his hair and she put it quite nicely:

Messing up your hair because you think it looks cool to look like you've just got off your broomstick [...]

James's hair was unruly anyway but he was going for a Cool Quidditch Player look in order to impress Lily. Well, she wasn't really impressed but at least she noticed. :lol:

The best and most enduring example of the man James Potter was is Harry. Harry's escapades from his first year are reckless and, as Dumbledore noted, Harry always had a "certain fondness for breaking rules." That's a trait he got from his dad and, I think, Harry's huge heart was the gift of both James and Lily.

Harry is average-looking. He's never been described as handsome or ugly. I think that is deliberate. So James was average-looking too. In fact, Harry has the advantage of having Lily's almond-shaped green eyes.

James had his magical skill and Quidditch fame to make him appealing to the girls. But it was Sirius who was described as handsome, never James.

James wasn't stated to be handsome,and he didn't have uncontrollable hair did he?He kept messing up it.


I respect your opinion, however, you cut off the portion of my post that explained what I was referring to. :) I didn't say James was stated to be handsome. I said that James was handsome and had good hygiene practices in comparison to Snape. This was in response to what the 'well cared for look' v. 'not well cared for look' contrast might be interpreted to mean. That was merely my personal impression of that particular statement. :)

I said that James was handsome and had good hygiene practices in comparison to Snape.

Well, yeah! :lol:

I said that James was handsome and had good hygiene practices in comparison to Snape.


We don't know that it was Snape's bad hygiene that caused his hair to be greasy. It is interesting to note that no one *ever* says that Snape smells bad, something one would assume would happen if he never showered. Nor is his hair described as a tangled mess-- thus he must brush it.

And, his teeth are yellow, not black, which is what they would be if he *never* brushed his teeth. So he must take some time to care for himself, but he obviously does not take time to make himself good looking. He doesn't care about looks, so he doesn't obsess over it.

James may be better looking, but that doesn't mean he has better hygiene.

Why don't we stay on topic, so we can keep this thread going in a good direction.

Quote:
I said that James was handsome and had good hygiene practices in comparison to Snape.

We don't know that it was Snape's bad hygiene that caused his hair to be greasy. It is interesting to note that no one *ever* says that Snape smells bad, something one would assume would happen if he never showered. Nor is his hair described as a tangled mess-- thus he must brush it.
I think it's on-topic to quote this piece of canon:

James had: "the indefinable air of having been well-cared for, even adored, that Snape so conspicuously lacked."

JKR makes the comparison between the two boys quite plain from the beginning, but we can ask ourselves which of them is the most like Harry on that first train to Hogwarts? Not James.

James had alot of advantages that neither Snape nor Harry had, is my point.

Topic is James Potter, not who had better hygiene or which boy is more like Harry. It's fine to use comparisons to explore characters but let's keep the focus on James himself.

Why don't we stay on topic, so we can keep this thread going in a good direction.

Yeah, Snape's hygiene doesn't really fit in James's thread... lol. (Btw, I like your avatar ;))

I have a feeling that they would have said that of James nonetheless because of his stance against the dark arts, Voldemort and the popular superior blood line theory, all of which were of interest to many of the Slytherins at that time. However, I think James had a strong back bone and like Ron, would have been proud of being thought of that way - it fit with his outlook of considering everyone equal.

I agree, I could definitely see him being proud of it! See, this is why I love James: he was completely anti-Voldemort and anti-pureblood superiority, despite being pureblood himself; he gave Sirius the chance to show he wasn't like the rest of his pureblood-crazed family when I'm sure many judged him througout his life; he was great friends with Remus, who was a werewolf, and he spent years along with Sirius and Peter to become an animagus just to keep Remus company, at the very least... and even if he was an arrogant prick at the age of fifteen, he grew out of it and I think his relationship with Lily is proof of that. And then he became the oh-so loving father of Le Boy Who Lived. =)

Now onto something a bit different, that I'm not sure was discussed in here before. What do you all think his job was? Jo didn't want to say before, but it turned out to be rather unimportant. Just out of curiosity as an obsessed fan, however, I'd love to hear what you all think. I always thought he'd either go into Quidditch, become an auror, or go into something related to transfiguration (whatever that could be).

Now onto something a bit different, that I'm not sure was discussed in here before. What do you all think his job was? Jo didn't want to say before, but it turned out to be rather unimportant. Just out of curiosity as an obsessed fan, however, I'd love to hear what you all think. I always thought he'd either go into Quidditch, become an auror, or go into something related to transfiguration (whatever that could be).

He might have done something at the Ministry, but I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't have any job at all by the time they went into hiding, since it isn't mentioned anywhere.

James was very anti-Dark Arts so I think he was an auror (like his son!). Even though James was very young when he died, there are young aurors out there. Look at Tonks.

He might have done something at the Ministry, but I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't have any job at all by the time they went into hiding, since it isn't mentioned anywhere.

I interpreted LilyDreams's question to mean what he had trained for - although I might have that wrong :)

I agree with you, SIP; I believe he immediately began fighting in the Order during the first war and was not able to pursue an occupation (defying Voldy thrice and all of that). Then Harry was born and that certainly took up a bit of his time. Later, DD would ask he and Lily to go into hiding because he knew the prophecy, So there would not be time to pursue an occupation imo.

However, in answer to what I think you were asking, LilyDreams, I would say that James definitly could have pursued a career as a Quidditch player. He was also very against the dark arts so he would have been a likely candidate for a position at the Ministry. He could have likely taught transfigurations, but I think the sedate life of a professor would have been rather boring for him based on his character. However, he may have just wanted a calmer life with his wife and son and opened up a Joke Shop - as he loved pranking goods I should imagine. It seems like his options were wide open as he was quite talented. :)

Considering he was fairly wealthy, he might have been able to sit back for a few years and figure out where he wanted to go. Somehow I don't see him liking the Ministry much - he seems more suited to working "outside the beuerocracy". He might have had enough gold to just be working with Dumbledore on Order business until another opportunity arose.

I interpreted LilyDreams's question to mean what he had trained for - although I might have that wrong :)

I agree with you, SIP; I believe he immediately began fighting in the Order during the first war and was not able to pursue an occupation (defying Voldy thrice and all of that). Then Harry was born and that certainly took up a bit of his time. Later, DD would ask he and Lily to go into hiding because he knew the prophecy, So there would not be time to pursue an occupation imo.

However, in answer to what I think you were asking, LilyDreams, I would say that James definitly could have pursued a career as a Quidditch player. He was also very against the dark arts so he would have been a likely candidate for a position at the Ministry. He could have likely taught transfigurations, but I think the sedate life of a professor would have been rather boring for him based on his character. However, he may have just wanted a calmer life with his wife and son and opened up a Joke Shop - as he loved pranking goods I should imagine. It seems like his options were wide open as he was quite talented. :)

That was what I meant. :)

Yeah, I couldn't see him as a teacher, either. I think he'd want to put his talent to good use, in one way or another, so that's why I felt he'd either go for Quidditch or Transfiguration. But I like the idea of a Joke shop, lol. Imagine if he had - Fred and George would have spent their entire savings in that shop...

Considering he was fairly wealthy, he might have been able to sit back for a few years and figure out where he wanted to go. Somehow I don't see him liking the Ministry much - he seems more suited to working "outside the beuerocracy". He might have had enough gold to just be working with Dumbledore on Order business until another opportunity arose.

Yeah, that's quite likely. However I always got the impression he did have some sort of a job, because of the way Jo said "He was very wealthy, he didn't need a well-paying job." But I agree that a Ministry job wasn't so much his style. Unless he had a more active Ministry career, like if he were an auror; I couldn't see him working at a desk every day.

What do you guys think the point was of the Forest Again Chapter, when in narration it was mentioned that 'James' eyeglasses were skewed like Mr. Weasleys'.

I think JKR made a lot of strange analogies throughout the books - especially in DH - but I could understand what she was trying to say. However, in this one, I didn't really get it because I don't recall Mr. Weasley's glasses being skewed...did she mention Mr. Weasley's glasses being skewed now and again or was Jo trying to draw some other correlation between James and Mr. Weasley?

I think it says a lot that no other student, not one, but Lily, went to Snape's aid... no other fellow Slytherins, no fair Hufflepuffs, no rule-abiding students, etc.

I think a lot of people were scared to confront the Marauders. Which is why the ones not amused were not coming to Severus's help.

What do you guys think the point was of the Forest Again Chapter, when in narration it was mentioned that 'James' eyeglasses were skewed like Mr. Weasleys'.

I think JKR made a lot of strange analogies throughout the books - especially in DH - but I could understand what she was trying to say. However, in this one, I didn't really get it because I don't recall Mr. Weasley's glasses being skewed...did she mention Mr. Weasley's glasses being skewed now and again or was Jo trying to draw some other correlation between James and Mr. Weasley?
That's an interesting question! When Harry goes to King's Cross, he notices "he was not wearing glasses anymore." So why would James's spirit still have his? I'll have to think about that one - good catch on that! :)

But I just checked and the word "skewed" is not used. James's glasses are "lopsided" like Mr. Weasleys. I think Harry considers Mr. Weasley another father-figure, so it's an obvious parallel that he would compare James to him. In the future, Mr. Weasley becomes his father-in-law, so that's fitting, too. :)

Yes, I believe that was the contrast being made; as far as we know, James was handsome and had good hygiene practices.

Learned from doting and attentive parents, a resource Sev conspicuously lacked. The point of the image, as I see it, is to show that, like Draco, James was fortunate and privileged, and lacked any sensitivity towards people who were not as fortunate.

James was a chaser on the Quidditch team (at least I believe that was his position) - and I had always imagined him as an imposing presence out there.

Yeah, it's the Beaters that need the size (and I presume Keepers, just from analogy to Muggle sports).

I think a lot of people were scared to confront the Marauders. Which is why the ones not amused were not coming to Severus's help.

Nah, they were all too well-liked among the other students. That's canon. There isn't even a hint of the other students fearing the Marauders.

As for James' job, didn't Jo tell us years ago that he was independently wealthy and didn't need a job?

That's an interesting question! When Harry goes to King's Cross, he notices "he was not wearing glasses anymore." So why would James's spirit still have his? I'll have to think about that one - good catch on that! :)

But I just checked and the word "skewed" is not used. James's glasses are "lopsided" like Mr. Weasleys. I think Harry considers Mr. Weasley another father-figure, so it's an obvious parallel that he would compare James to him. In the future, Mr. Weasley becomes his father-in-law, so that's fitting, too. :)

lol...yeah, lopsided (I am the last person who needs to do any re-wording for JKR). :)

I think you make a great correlation with all the father figure notions. I forgot that Arthur would be Harry's father in law. What I couldn't remember was whether or not Arthur's glasses were actually ever mentioned as being lopsided - or if she just decided to toss that in.

Harry's glasses flew off just before Kings Cross when he was knocked out by the AK curse. That portion about the glasses was Harry still trying to figure out what was up - I don't think he realized that Voldy had knocked them off. :lol: But the four spirits had already moved back to the after-life once more by then. Harry dropped the stone prior to facing Voldy - so Harry had his glasses on the whole time James was around.

Learned from doting and attentive parents, a resource Sev conspicuously lacked. The point of the image, as I see it, is to show that, like Draco, James was fortunate and privileged, and lacked any sensitivity towards people who were not as fortunate.

Where was it stated in canon that James was insensitive towards Snape because he was poor? I never caught any remark made by him to suggest that. Actually, Lily was one to make a remark about Snape's dirty underpants in SWM...

I personally think that James, as arrogant as he could get, didn't like bragging about things like his parentage and his wealth, unlike Draco.

As for James' job, didn't Jo tell us years ago that he was independently wealthy and didn't need a job?

She said he didn't need a well-paying job. :)

Learned from doting and attentive parents, a resource Sev conspicuously lacked. The point of the image, as I see it, is to show that, like Draco, James was fortunate and privileged, and lacked any sensitivity towards people who were not as fortunate.


Respecting your opinion, however, canon tells us that James did indeed have sensitivity toward people who were not as fortunate as him.

His very good friend Remus Lupin had robes that were a bit shabby back then (DH) and was most certainly not privileged in any sense of the word. Lupin was certainly less fortunate than James and James showed him compassion, sensitivity and warm friendship :)

So I would say the point of the scene was more to show the start of the animosity between all of the lads. I think JKR had Harry make note of James' appearance because it would have been a logical thought for him at that moment: "Were my grandparents treating my Dad the way Snape's parents had treated him?" And his father's appearance on the train granted him the relief of knowing that his grandparents had adored James and cared for him.

Maybe James got a job that didn't require him to spend a lot of time at work. If he did work, he probably got a small job that offered a small amount of money. Seeing as he was in the Order member and a father, he probably didn't have enough time to get a proper job. He already inheirited a lot of money anyway so it wasn't necessary to get a big job yet. Maybe he was planning to get a different job when LV died? I don't know ... JKR did say Lily and James's occupations would be important to the plot, but she could've meant that they became Order members.

By the way, does anyone know why Jo gave James his name? What does his personality have to do with his personality? Just wondering. :)

By the way, does anyone know why Jo gave James his name? What does his personality have to do with his personality? Just wondering. :)

http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/James

For example, gives the origin of the name "James". It is Hebrew in origin, and means "he who supplants". I bet Severus would have agreed that it was a good name for him. ;)

Well, according to Mugglenet...

James - Means "supplanter." To "supplant" is" to to take the place of, or substitute, especially through intrigue or underhanded tactics." James was also an apostle of Jesus.

Does this mean that James "replaced" Snape? If so, how? Maybe it's just me, but I see the relationship between Lily and James different from Lily and Snape. I mean, James didn't really replace Snape as a romantic interest, really.

Well, according to Mugglenet...



Does this mean that James "replaced" Snape? If so, how? Maybe it's just me, but I see the relationship between Lily and James different from Lily and Snape. I mean, James didn't really replace Snape as a romantic interest, really.

I am sure there are various definitions depending on the language you look up. Nonetheless, there might be posters with the name "James", it is pretty common, so that might be something to keep in mind. :)

Well, according to Mugglenet...

Does this mean that James "replaced" Snape? If so, how? Maybe it's just me, but I see the relationship between Lily and James different from Lily and Snape. I mean, James didn't really replace Snape as a romantic interest, really.

I agree that he didn't 'replace' Snape. To Lily, Snape was a friend. James was the love of her life... kind of a difference. I think his name is more likely a references to the apostle of Jesus, or perhaps, just like 'Harry', Jo just really liked the name!

Something I just randomly found:

There are many saints called James, the most famous being Saint James the Elder, one of the Apostles. As a common name it has many namesakes, such as the author James Joyce or the fictional British spy James Bond ("007"). The name has been used for royalty: James has been the name of two Kings of England (James I ruled from 1603-1625, and James II from 1685-1688). In the UK James was the sixth most popular name for boys in 2006; it ranked 16th in the US in the same year.

You might be interested in Snape and Lily (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=111984&highlight=snape+lily). For this thread please stick to James' character analysis, but leave out comparison between Snape's and Lily relation to Lily. Thank you. :)

Nah, they were all too well-liked among the other students. That's canon. There isn't even a hint of the other students fearing the Marauders.


Would that mean that the other students did not interfere because they liked the Marauders so much that they agreed with that kind of behaviour? For once, Lily obviously didn't fear them but they were not that well-liked with her at that time either. We don't get much canon about what any other students from their year felt about them. But it is stated that James hexed people who annoyed him, which implies that there were indeed people (not just one person) who annoyed him (and probably vice versa). There have probably been students who feared to be hexed by him should they get in his way.

I am sure there are various definitions depending on the language you look up. Nonetheless, there might be posters with the name "James", it is pretty common, so that might be something to keep in mind. :)

Actualy, since the name is Hebrew in origin, and the name has been incorporated into assorted European languages as a result of Christianity (James, who as a Jew had a Hebrew name, was an Apostle of Jesus), that name has the same origin/meaning in all of those languages. If anyone who has that name does not like its meaning, they ought to complain to their parents, simply mentioning this fact is not offensive by any reasonable standard. Jo may or may not have picked the given name of James Potter for its meaning; I am sure many parents pick it because it is a saint's name, or has been previously used in the family.

In addition to meaning "supplanter" (with it's obvious connotations in the canon), the name James also has a connection to British history, as in "King James," associated with the famous published poetic version of the English Bible (http://etext.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html).

But King James also has a connection to witches and being "against the Dark Arts." He wrote a book called "Daemonologie" (http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/kjd/index.htm) about how to tell if someone was a witch or not. The second half of that book is about an actual witch persecution that happened in Edinburgh, Scotland (and we know who lives there!).

He also wrote a book of advice for his son, Henry, called "Basilikon Doron." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilikon_Doron)

In addition to those, he wrote poetry and books on the Divine Right of Kings (http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:lSvcv4G6Ew0J:www.wwnorton.com/college/history/ralph/workbook/ralprs20.htm+divine+right+of+kings+james&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&ie=UTF-8), which he believed in.

In the Scriptures kings are called gods, and so their power after a certain relation compared to the divine power. Kings are also compared to fathers of families: for a king is truly Parens patriae, the politique father of his people.

Complete Works, King James (http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/james/jamesbib.htm#basilikon)

Edited to Add: There are many other "King James" of Scotland - you can see the whole dynasty listed Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Scots). If "Charlus" on the Black Family list is the name of his father, that is also possibly a reference to Scotland, and Bonnie Prince Charlie. :)

We don't get much canon about what any other students from their year felt about them. But it is stated that James hexed people who annoyed him, which implies that there were indeed people (not just one person) who annoyed him (and probably vice versa). There have probably been students who feared to be hexed by him should they get in his way.

We have plenty of canon about how popular James and Sirius were at Hogwarts. There is only SWM and its aftermath in the fireplace at Grimmaud Place to attest to him hexing people for the fun of it. James maintained his popularity after he left school: think about the reactions to his death in the wizarding community. The same is true of Lily.

As for the hexing, I don't see it as such a big deal. Harry hexed Crabbe or Goyle with the toenail growth jinx. Hermione laid a confundus charm on McClagen. There are quite a few examples of student-on-student hexing in the seven Potter books

We have plenty of canon about how popular James and Sirius were at Hogwarts. There is only SWM and its aftermath in the fireplace at Grimmaud Place to attest to him hexing people for the fun of it. James maintained his popularity after he left school: think about the reactions to his death in the wizarding community. The same is true of Lily.

As for the hexing, I don't see it as such a big deal. Harry hexed Crabbe or Goyle with the toenail growth jinx. Hermione laid a confundus charm on McClagen. There are quite a few examples of student-on-student hexing in the seven Potter books
Don't forget about Harry's detentions organizing Filch's detention files, showing all their various offenses and punishments.

SIP do you think you could post your (I think it's yours atleast) Group Think essay? Or is the Marauders thread a more appropriate spot?

SIP do you think you could post your (I think it's yours atleast) Group Think essay? Or is the Marauders thread a more appropriate spot?
I can post the link on the Marauders thread, if you'd like. :)

We have plenty of canon about how popular James and Sirius were at Hogwarts. There is only SWM and its aftermath in the fireplace at Grimmaud Place to attest to him hexing people for the fun of it. James maintained his popularity after he left school: think about the reactions to his death in the wizarding community. The same is true of Lily.

As for the hexing, I don't see it as such a big deal. Harry hexed Crabbe or Goyle with the toenail growth jinx. Hermione laid a confundus charm on McClagen. There are quite a few examples of student-on-student hexing in the seven Potter books

This is quite true. James' grave was marked by tons of wizards and witches in loving memory. But more than that, it is canon that he was popular. The fact that he did things like save his enemies and jinx those involved in the dark arts (when others were too scared to do so) likely added to his popularity. Finally, he was clearly a very likeable lad if Lily liked him despite thinking him an "arrogant, bullying toe rag". That is because she could see his good heart and compassionate nature all along imo.

Actualy, since the name is Hebrew in origin, and the name has been incorporated into assorted European languages as a result of Christianity (James, who as a Jew had a Hebrew name, was an Apostle of Jesus), that name has the same origin/meaning in all of those languages. If anyone who has that name does not like its meaning, they ought to complain to their parents, simply mentioning this fact is not offensive by any reasonable standard. Jo may or may not have picked the given name of James Potter for its meaning; I am sure many parents pick it because it is a saint's name, or has been previously used in the family.

I just mentioned keeping in mind that it is a popular name. I don't think it hurts to be sensitive to the feelings of others. It is both a popular first and last name. :)

This is quite true. James' grave was marked by tons of wizards and witches in loving memory. But more than that, it is canon that he was popular. The fact that he did things like save his enemies and jinx those involved in the dark arts (when others were too scared to do so) likely added to his popularity. Finally, he was clearly a very likeable lad if Lily liked him despite thinking him an "arrogant, bullying toe rag". That is because she could see his good heart and compassionate nature all along imo.



I am not sure what you mean when you say jinx those involved in the dark arts. If you are referring to Snape I see no reason how that excuses what happned in SWM. Snape was off sitting alone minding his own business. The others that James jinxed that was talked about in HBP are never said to be involved in the dark arts and we have Lily say that James jinxed people who annoyed him. She never says anything about the dark arts.

I am not sure what you mean when you say jinx those involved in the dark arts. If you are referring to Snape I see no reason how that excuses what happned in SWM. Snape was off sitting alone minding his own business. The others that James jinxed that was talked about in HBP are never said to be involved in the dark arts and we have Lily say that James jinxed people who annoyed him. She never says anything about the dark arts.

I respect your opinion, however, I wasn't speaking about excusing anyone's behavior - I was speaking solely in terms of popularity. James played pranks on random people as far as we know from canon; however, that also included pranking those involved in the dark arts (who were apparently less popular based on the crowd cheering James on in one such instance in canon).

My point was, that adding to James' popularity was likely his willingness to stand up to those involved in the dark arts and acts and prank them along with everyone else. Others might be less inclined to do so considering their fear of ending up like Mary McDonald and having dark arts magic practiced on them. So it would make James brave and heroic in their eyes (in that playground sense kids have) adding to his popularity.

So I was just speaking of popularity, not making a judgment call - as I have stated previously, while I think decisions made while young do impact people when they are older (and I recognize good and bad efforts in that regard), I do not personally make judgment calls on children during their young formative years, but I respect the opinions of those who do. :)

We have plenty of canon about how popular James and Sirius were at Hogwarts. There is only SWM and its aftermath in the fireplace at Grimmaud Place to attest to him hexing people for the fun of it. James maintained his popularity after he left school: think about the reactions to his death in the wizarding community. The same is true of Lily.

As for the hexing, I don't see it as such a big deal. Harry hexed Crabbe or Goyle with the toenail growth jinx. Hermione laid a confundus charm on McClagen. There are quite a few examples of student-on-student hexing in the seven Potter books.

SWM was a revelation of the uglier face of the Marauders who Harry had believed to be all great and noble until then, which was not quite the whole truth. As to how popular he was, I don't really recall any statements about this from other students of their year who were not part of the Marauders or from teachers. As to the reactions to the Potters' death, I got the feeling that the fact that their death defeated Voldemort obviously caused much celebration in the wizarding world, while the amount of people shown to mourn the Potters personally is not all that great.

What bothers me about the hexing is that it was not a student-to-student thing only but that the Marauders ganged up on people like Snape - 4 against 1 (who is not even doing anything at the moment) is cowardly and cruel. If James and Snape had just dueled it would have been a very different thing.

SWM was a revelation of the uglier face of the Marauders who Harry had believed to be all great and noble until then, which was not quite the whole truth. As to how popular he was, I don't really recall any statements about this from other students of their year who were not part of the Marauders or from teachers. As to the reactions to the Potters' death, I got the feeling that the fact that their death defeated Voldemort obviously caused much celebration in the wizarding world, while the amount of people shown to mourn the Potters personally is not all that great. I think its pretty obvious that he was popular, think about it, chaser on house team, always pulling pranks on people, etc. I would be surprised if he wasn't poplular. Also, just because a Marauder or teacher saying he was popular doesn't make it untrue.

Although the people personally mourning the Potters were not great, not many people knew them extremely well, but those who did, the older members of the Order, teachers, etc. probably did mourn their deaths.

What bothers me about the hexing is that it was not a student-to-student thing only but that the Marauders ganged up on people like Snape - 4 against 1 (who is not even doing anything at the moment) is cowardly and cruel. If James and Snape had just dueled it would have been a very different thing.
First, it was two on one, not four. Second, when you say 'cowardly and cruel' Snape was the one who used a dark spell, Snape was the one who attacked when James and Sirius were distracted, so Snape was more 'cowardly and cruel' then James or Sirius.

Let's take a deep breath in here guys.

As to how popular he was, I don't really recall any statements about this from other students of their year who were not part of the Marauders or from teachers.

I would imagine this was because there were no students in the series from their year that Harry ever met to speak about James with. The Longbottoms were alive, but incapable of speaking with him; Snape of course would not speak of James' popularity to Harry (although he did indicate in the pensieve that James was arrogant due to his popularity as a star Quidditch player and that everyone thought James was wonderful - DH TPT). We never heard from Mulciber or Avery. So the only people who could speak about it in canon were James' friends and the professors he had. And JKR had them indicate this so that we would know. I don't know of any reason in canon that would have necessitated McGonagall, Hagrid, DD or Peeves to conspire with Remus and Sirius to pretend James had been popular. Too, it would be kind of strange for a group of children to gather and cheer James' efforts if he were unpopular and disliked. So my impression was that James' was a popular lad at school, together with his group of friends. However, I respect your opinion if you see this distinctly.

Turning the topic slightly, what characteristics do you guys feel James had that would make him want to join the Order at such a young age rather than pursue a career, for example Quidditch?

Turning the topic slightly, what characteristics do you guys feel James had that would make him want to join the Order at such a young age rather than pursue a career, for example Quidditch?

I see James as the kind of person who is not going to be the one to sit around and just let things happen. I think he is someone who a) is too antsy and has too much energy to sit back and let other people do things for him (or for his community in general) and b) is a bit idealistic in the sense that he feels he can be the one (or at least one of the ones) to take down the darkest wizard of his time.

I do see that these things may have changed once he settled down with Lily and had Harry, but I think those would have been his inital reactions when he first graduated from Hogwarts. We all know he was a bit arrogant (hence the thinking he could defeat the wizard) and very capable of handling himself, which I think he would see as an asset to the Order. I also see him as being someone who generally believes in helping his community in any way he can. I can see him thinking it was his duty to help defeat Voldemort in any way that he can.

The others that James jinxed that was talked about in HBP are never said to be involved in the dark arts and we have Lily say that James jinxed people who annoyed him. She never says anything about the dark arts.

Ah, I don't think it's realistic at all to assume that Snape and his Slytherin mates weren't jinxing people. Snape invented a lot of spells that were well-known by James and Sirius and, I'm betting, quite a few others. They didn't learn those spells by reading the margins of his potions book. He had to have introduced them himself.

I don't think trying to tear James down, in order to build Snape up, is the way to go. It's pretty clear from the big picture that James was a nice guy.

I see James as the kind of person who is not going to be the one to sit around and just let things happen. I think he is someone who a) is too antsy and has too much energy to sit back and let other people do things for him (or for his community in general) and b) is a bit idealistic in the sense that he feels he can be the one (or at least one of the ones) to take down the darkest wizard of his time.

I do see that these things may have changed once he settled down with Lily and had Harry, but I think those would have been his inital reactions when he first graduated from Hogwarts. We all know he was a bit arrogant (hence the thinking he could defeat the wizard) and very capable of handling himself, which I think he would see as an asset to the Order. I also see him as being someone who generally believes in helping his community in any way he can. I can see him thinking it was his duty to help defeat Voldemort in any way that he can.

I agree, I feel those were characteristics that would see James move toward a life with the Order rather than pursuing a career when he graduated. :)

I think you are right that his arrogant nature (much like his son's) would lend to an attitude that he (with the Order) could bring Voldy down. As he and Lily defied Voldy thrice, his thoughts in that regard were merited. I think that type of arrogance is commendable. The only other characteristic I could think to add was his hatred of the dark arts, which would lead him to select a path that would help in seeing to their downfall within wizarding society.

As to the reactions to the Potters' death, I got the feeling that the fact that their death defeated Voldemort obviously caused much celebration in the wizarding world, while the amount of people shown to mourn the Potters personally is not all that great.

It was a bittersweet night - the darkest wizard of all time was seemingly dead and gone, yet Lily and James were murdered... considering how many families had been torn apart because of Voldemort, I think it was a natural reaction to celebrate the night away. However, the memorial set up in Godric's Hollow for the Potters made me feel people really did mourn the loss. Of course, all the people who personally knew the couple would have been devastated, but I'd imagine even those who'd only heard of them would have been sad. Two 21 year-olds, just married and recent parents, who had fought strongly against Voldemort and defied him three times... I'm sure they were quite well loved in the wizarding community (well, the good side).

I don't think trying to tear James down, in order to build Snape up, is the way to go. It's pretty clear from the big picture that James was a nice guy.

I agree. In literature, symbolism plays a huge role in defining aspects of the story. To me, James's stag form says enough on its own. Of course he has his flaws, like every other human being on the planet, but his overall character was good. Much like Sirius and Peter's animagus forms fit their characters (dog = loyal, loving; rat - well that's self explanatory), I believe the stag was meant to say something about James. I believe, earlier in this thread, I posted a few different associations to the stag, and I couldn't find a single bad one. And we all know Jo - everything was chosen for a reason.

I agree. In literature, symbolism plays a huge role in defining aspects of the story. To me, James's stag form says enough on its own. Of course he has his flaws, like every other human being on the planet, but his overall character was good. Much like Sirius and Peter's animagus forms fit their characters (dog = loyal, loving; rat - well that's self explanatory), I believe the stag was meant to say something about James. I believe, earlier in this thread, I posted a few different associations to the stag, and I couldn't find a single bad one. And we all know Jo - everything was chosen for a reason.

Did you ever see the movie "Bambi?" The Great Stag, Bambi's father, was one of the majestic animated characters ever. I've always thought of him whenever Harry cast his patronus and, inevitably, my thoughts reverted to James from whom that stag originated.

Did you ever see the movie "Bambi?" The Great Stag, Bambi's father, was one of the majestic animated characters ever. I've always thought of him whenever Harry cast his patronus and, inevitably, my thoughts reverted to James from whom that stag originated.

Um...Bambi didn't make it to my country at that point, but I did imagine Rudolf, the only deer I recalled at the time. But they are characterized as rather pleasant, compassionate animals and it matched the characterization of James in my head.

Did you ever see the movie "Bambi?" The Great Stag, Bambi's father, was one of the majestic animated characters ever. I've always thought of him whenever Harry cast his patronus and, inevitably, my thoughts reverted to James from whom that stag originated.

I've always adored Bambi, and yet I'd never made that connection before. But you're right, there is a similarity. That really just made me smile, now.

Bambi follows his father into the forest, taking one last look back as he leaves his childhood and innocence behind.

That just really reminded me of The Forest Again, and I don't think I need to explain why.

Did you ever see the movie "Bambi?" The Great Stag, Bambi's father, was one of the majestic animated characters ever. I've always thought of him whenever Harry cast his patronus and, inevitably, my thoughts reverted to James from whom that stag originated.

Yes... I agree with you... I thought of bambi's dad as well when I read the books... I wonder if JK is a fan of the movie. At any rate James always represented majestic and noble beauty... It showed that he was a beautiful man on the inside...:D

James was more well know ,but lets no forget that he did a alot of unnecessary jinxing,and not just in the joking pranking form,Lily says that he jinxes people who annoy him,and the way she puts it it seems he did it quite often(also the dentention cards back this up) so I don't think everyone in the school was necessarily a fan.I can see them being well liked in their own house but I'm sure they weren't as much by the other two.

James was more well know ,but lets no forget that he did a alot of unnecessary jinxing,and not just in the joking pranking form,Lily says that he jinxes people who annoy him,and the way she puts it it seems he did it quite often(also the dentention cards back this up) so I don't think everyone in the school was necessarily a fan.I can see them being well liked in their own house but I'm sure they weren't as much by the other two.

I agree. And there's something else. There was a parallel made between the Marauders and the Weasley twins, and it's canon. I openly admit I've never been a huge fan of Fred and George's, but my personal preferences aside, there IS one big difference. As far as I recall, we never see Fred and George advance upon someone, being described as hound dogs who have just smelled a rabbit, and attack him/her without provocation; and then just humiliate him/her in front of the whole school just for the fun of it. I don't think we've seen the twins made an unprovoked attack on another student. If I'm wrong, however, by all means correct this statement.

So my point is, the scene in Snape's Worst Memory is not an illustration of James's (and Sirius's) popularity and creativity. It served a very clear purpose - to sober Harry up about his father by showing him in a light Harry wouldn't have imagined him in. And that's how Harry saw him, and that's why he was so upset after the memory. So I'd say the memory does show James as an arrogant bully, and not just as a popular pranskter.

I agree. And there's something else. There was a parallel made between the Marauders and the Weasley twins, and it's canon. I openly admit I've never been a huge fan of Fred and George's, but my personal preferences aside, there IS one big difference. As far as I recall, we never see Fred and George advance upon someone, being described as hound dogs who have just smelled a rabbit, and attack him/her without provocation; and then just humiliate him/her in front of the whole school just for the fun of it. I don't think we've seen the twins made an unprovoked attack on another student. If I'm wrong, however, by all means correct this statement.

So my point is, the scene in Snape's Worst Memory is not an illustration of James's (and Sirius's) popularity and creativity. It served a very clear purpose - to sober Harry up about his father by showing him in a light Harry wouldn't have imagined him in. And that's how Harry saw him, and that's why he was so upset after the memory. So I'd say the memory does show James as an arrogant bully, and not just as a popular pranskter.

Respecting your opinion, but Harry, immediately after seeing SWM, thinks that he could understand Fred and George doing what his dad did to Snape if it were 'Draco or somebody who deserved it' (OOTP). He didn't realize that for James, Snape was like Draco, until DD explained it to Harry later on. Then he realized that Snape was not completely innocent - nor was his father - they were like he and Draco. If Harry had never come to think better of James character, he would have continued to believe that James was a horrible man who had forced his mother to marry him (all Harry's thoughts at the time of SWM) and I doubt he'd of ever been able to love his dad thinking like that. But he did come to understand and love his dad again. So that was my impression from the reading. :)

Snape in the memories indicates that "everyone thought James (and friends) were wonderful" - which would indicate James' popularity in the words of his enemy. That and what I said in my above post, lead me to believe that James was a popular kid, but not only that, that he earned his popularity by being liked - a good person at heart. I respect your opinion if you see this distinctly. :)

Respecting your opinion, but Harry, immediately after seeing SWM, thinks that he could understand Fred and George doing what his dad did to Snape if it were 'Draco or somebody who deserved it' (OOTP). He didn't realize that for James, Snape was like Draco, until DD explained it to Harry later on.

Dumbledore had explained it early on - as early as the first book, as a matter of fact. And Harry's initial reaction was one of shock and disappointment, and definitely NOT of understanding or justification. I can't see a way around that. It was on pag in the book, and the purpose was very clear - to sober Harry up about his father. Harry definitely did NOT approve of James's actions in the Pensieve and he did not think Snape deserved it. On the contrary, he felt Snape had done nothing to deserve it. He saw thre was no provcation, and he remembered his father explaining it with the mere fact of Snape's existence. This bothered Harry. He did not excuse his father in any way, even though he tried to find mitigating factors.

Then he realized that Snape was not completely innocent - nor was his father - they were like he and Draco.

Quote from OotP, please?

If Harry had never come to think better of James character, he would have continued to believe that James was a horrible man who had forced his mother to marry him (all Harry's thoughts at the time of SWM) and I doubt he'd of ever been able to love his dad thinking like that. But he did come to understand and love his dad again.

That's the key phrase - again. There would be no need for "again", because he did love and admire his father before Snape's Worst Momery. But the scene he saw there definitely disturbed him and made him see his father in a different light. Wasn't that one of the main purposes this scene served?

Snape in the memories indicates that "everyone thought James (and friends) were wonderful" - which would indicate James' popularity in the words of his enemy. That and what I said in my above post, lead me to believe that James was a popular kid, but not only that, that he earned his popularity by being liked - a good person at heart.

Oh, I agree he was popular. But I don't see any clues to his good heart being the reason for it. If you have quotes hinting at that, I'd love to read them. But the clues I remember lead to the impression that James was popular because he was a great Quidditch player and a brilliant student with advanced magical abilities. No mentioned made of a good heart or noble actions while he was at school. And from Lily's words and behaviour, we can see she didn't think he was a good person at heart, and she was from his won house.

Dumbledore had explained it early on - as early as the first book, as a matter of fact. And Harry's initial reaction was one of shock and disappointment, and definitely NOT of understanding or justification. I can't see a way around that. It was on pag in the book, and the purpose was very clear - to sober Harry up about his father. Harry definitely did NOT approve of James's actions in the Pensieve and he did not think Snape deserved it. On the contrary, he felt Snape had done nothing to deserve it. He saw thre was no provcation, and he remembered his father explaining it with the mere fact of Snape's existence. This bothered Harry. He did not excuse his father in any way, even though he tried to find mitigating factors. That's the key phrase - again. There would be no need for "again", because he did love and admire his father before Snape's Worst Momery. But the scene he saw there definitely disturbed him and made him see his father in a different light. Wasn't that one of the main purposes this scene served?

I respect your opinion, but I am not certain I understand what you mean. Are you saying that Harry never came to see his father any differently than the way he saw him after witnessing SWM? Are you saying that after that you believe that Harry continued to feel cold and miserable at the thought of James and never again felt that his father could be a source of comfort or inspiration - and that Harry continued to believe his father had forced his mother to marry him and that Lily loathed James? Those were Harry's thoughts following SWM. I just don't know exactly which, if any of those things you felt Harry continued to feel about his father (through the end of the series), so it is difficult for me to know exactly what we are discussing. :)

My impression was that Harry did not think any of these things about his father by the close of OOTP. He realized James had flaws like everyone else (including his mother and Sirius), but he loved him as much as he ever had. It was the same with Sirius - he also felt Sirius' behavior had been equally bad, but by the end of OOTP, Harry's continued love for Sirius saved him from Voldemort and propelled his anger in DD's office. So that was further proof for me that Harry had finally come to understand the situation in relation to both Sirius and his Father.


Quote from OotP, please?

As you pointed out, in book 1, DD told Harry that James and Snape were like he and Draco. However, Harry did not believe that his father held the rancor for Snape that he held for Draco. This is shown in OOTP when Harry thinks to himself, "Harry could not imagine Fred and George dangling someone upside-down for the fun of it...not unless they really loathed them...perhaps Malfoy, or somebody who really deserved it..." (OOTP Brit Ed. pg. 575)

Harry did not believe that James' feelings were as acute as his own for Draco or that Snape's were either. However on page 735 (OOTP Brit. Ed.), DD confirms the depth of Snape's feelings for James. After that point in the series, every thought from Harry about his father is positive, so it indicated to me that he finally understood and believed that mutual hexing had gone on between his father and Snape.

Harry was not pleased to watch the scene again in DH. My impression was (at that point in the story), he didn't want to see his father hang Snape upside down or wash his mouth out with soap, or Sirius send the Impediment and Petrificus Totalus spells at Snape - but he also did not want to see Snape slash his father's cheek and blood splattering down onto his robes, nor hear Snape call his mother a filthy little mudblood. He understood what had been going on, but he didn't like any of it. He was just as upset about what Snape had done as he had been about his father's behavior (HBP, Brit Ed. pag 575). While he didn't mention it, he was also not likely happy to listen to his mum's final statement to Snape either. Just as he would not have liked to watch a memory of himself and Draco in the bathroom scene, ending with his throwing the sectumsempra curse.

So my impression was that Harry realized that he had mis-characterized his father and Sirius. He understood James was a good man at heart and that he was a lot like Harry himself characterwise.


Oh, I agree he was popular. But I don't see any clues to his good heart being the reason for it. If you have quotes hinting at that, I'd love to read them. But the clues I remember lead to the impression that James was popular because he was a great Quidditch player and a brilliant student with advanced magical abilities. No mentioned made of a good heart or noble actions while he was at school. And from Lily's words and behaviour, we can see she didn't think he was a good person at heart, and she was from his won house.

Examples of James good heart were indicated in popular events (but I can find canon if you don't recall them): his dedication to becoming an animagi to keep Remus company; his welcoming Sirius into his home to stay after Sirius ran away from home and his saving Snape from the tunnel. It is reasonable that he would not merely have three moments of good heart during 6 years of schooling, so I took these indications to show James' nature/character in the main. That would be seen by his school mates on a more daily basis. James could not walk the halls on a constant basis hexing everyone he saw or he would have been summarily tossed from Hogwarts. So I didn't take Lily's statement (declared in a fit of anger) that he hexed anyone that bothered him literally. He merely hexed when someone molested him - a reciprocal response on those rare occassions when it happened. Otherwise, he was up to pranks with his friends.

Lily was crushing on James. If she did not believe that he had a good heart, she would not have been. We saw her reaction to her friend who she felt had his heart in the wrong place - she ended the friendship. In relation to what she said about James and hexing, she yelled out the words in anger, just as she later yelled out similar words to Snape that she would not likely have done if she were not angry (the wash your underwear comment and using the name his enemies had coined, 'Snivellous').

So that was my impression from the reading. I respect your view if you see it distinctly. :)

That dynamic is also explained very well in the fireplace chat between Harry, Sirius, and Lupin in OotP. There Harry learned that Snape was in no way the innocent, poor little picked-on kid Harry thought he was.

Dumbledore had several conversations with Harry about Snape and about James. The one in OotP, in which Dumbledore said "I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father. I was wrong." always sticks in my mind as it says an awful lot about Snape's character. When speaking of James, however, Dumbledore's words are always positive.

Oh, I agree he was popular. But I don't see any clues to his good heart being the reason for it. If you have quotes hinting at that, I'd love to read them. But the clues I remember lead to the impression that James was popular because he was a great Quidditch player and a brilliant student with advanced magical abilities. No mentioned made of a good heart or noble actions while he was at school. And from Lily's words and behaviour, we can see she didn't think he was a good person at heart, and she was from his won house.

I agree ,I think he was well know,I'm sure alot of people knew him as the quidditch captain,as a good wizard and all that.But I don't think people knew him that well persoanally,I get the impression that it was the marauders who were his close friends who knew him on that level.

Examples of James good heart were indicated in popular events (but I can find canon if you don't recall them): his dedication to becoming an animagi to keep Remus company; his welcoming Sirius into his home to stay after Sirius ran away from home and his saving Snape from the tunnel. It is reasonable that he would not merely have three moments of good heart during 6 years of schooling, so I took these indications to show James' nature/character in the main. That would be seen by his school mates on a more daily basis. James could not walk the halls on a constant basis hexing everyone he saw or he would have been summarily tossed from Hogwarts. So I didn't take Lily's statement (declared in a fit of anger) that he hexed anyone that bothered him literally. He merely hexed when someone molested him - a reciprocal response on those rare occassions when it happened. Otherwise, he was up to pranks with his friends.

These are example of his behaviour with his friends which was obviously good,I don't think we have any of behaviour with other people at Hogwarts.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but are you implying that what Lily said should be over-looked becasue she was angry?Becasue if so then there are a great many statements in the book that can then be overlooked.What Lily said I believe is true,which people always take it as when she speaks in James's favour ,I think it should be the same when she speaks against him.

I agree. In literature, symbolism plays a huge role in defining aspects of the story. To me, James's stag form says enough on its own. Of course he has his flaws, like every other human being on the planet, but his overall character was good. Much like Sirius and Peter's animagus forms fit their characters (dog = loyal, loving; rat - well that's self explanatory), I believe the stag was meant to say something about James. I believe, earlier in this thread, I posted a few different associations to the stag, and I couldn't find a single bad one. And we all know Jo - everything was chosen for a reason.

I agree! James's animagus form gives an insight into his personality. According to a website I found, stags represent the following: pride, independence, boldness, bravery and purification. It sounds a lot like James to me! Plus JKR said that turning into a stag or a tiger as an Animagus form is really impressive.

On another website it said stags are the symbol of Christ. (Which I think you said in a post before.) It also says that stags are the enemies of snakes. When I think of snakes in HP, I immediately think of Voldemort. Interesting. . . . :)

These are example of his behaviour with his friends which was obviously good,I don't think we have any of behaviour with other people at Hogwarts.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but are you implying that what Lily said should be over-looked becasue she was angry?Becasue if so then there are a great many statements in the book that can then be overlooked.What Lily said I believe is true,which people always take it as when she speaks in James's favour ,I think it should be the same when she speaks against him.

I think what WWB was trying to say was that, if he did such noble things for his friends, then he did have a good heart, and that's not the kind of thing that you can completely cover up around other people. Why would he want to, anyways? Just because we never saw James's behaviour around random other students doesn't mean he hexed them all - his heart was in the right place, and I expect that came across to others as well, like Lily. She would not have liked him if all she saw was arrogance, bullying, and an overall mean spirit. She definitely saw enough good in him to fall for him. Jo's pretty big on the "don't fall for the bad boys" front - remember her comments on all the Draco fangirls? - and so it would be kind of hypocritical of her to make Lily fall for such a 'bad boy'.

What Lily said most likely had some truth in it, but everyone says things they don't really mean when they're angry. Snape is a good example of that one - he called his own best friend a Mudblood after she'd helped him, all 'cause he was furious with James and Sirius. But we all know he didn't mean it (at least when used against her). So when Lily was ranting on at James, I think she went a little over the top. Hexing everyone in the halls just cause they annoyed him? Like WWB said, he would have been expelled if he'd done that. I took it that all his detention slips were about mostly unimportant things, the kind of stuff Filch would go nuts over but others wouldn't really care about - this is another thing I see the Marauders having in common with the Twins. But as for hexing, I took it as meaning that the people who 'annoyed' him really were people he hated - i.e. Snape, and I'd assume other Slytherins who were not so high up on the good morality scale. When Lily was shouting at him, it wouldn't have stung so much if she'd said "hexing people you hate". Again, I doubt James actually made Lily feel 'sick', because from her behaviour, most people have deduced that she already liked him by this point (aided by Jo's comment in the leaky/mugglenet interview) and those two sentiments aren't usually felt all at once for one person. So I don't take everything Lily says, in that heated moment, as the entire truth. She was furious - she'd just been called a Mudblood by her childhood friend, and so I don't think she would have said all those things had she been calm.

As for the moment when she was defending James, there wasn't much she could sugar coat. She stated quite plainly: he didn't use Dark Magic, and he saved Snape's life. It's canon that James hated Dark Magic, and it's Dumbledore's own words that stated that James did in fact save Snape's life. So there wasn't much she was going over the top with.


I agree! James's animagus form gives an insight into his personality. According to a website I found, stags represent the following: pride, independence, boldness, bravery and purification. It sounds a lot like James to me!

On another website it said stags are the symbol of Christ. (Which I think you said in a post before.) It also says that stags are the enemies of snakes. When I think of snakes in HP, I immediately think of Voldemort. Interesting. . . . :)

Yeah, definitely! That was what I thought when I'd read about the snake, as well. And I always get the impression that, considering all the biblical references (especially in DH), it wasn't a coincidence that the stag was a symbol of Christ; she must have known. The quote on James and Lily's gravestone is from the Bible, too. However, she didn't want James to come across as a god-like person, because that's not true of anyone, and so she developed his character in the memories, to show his flaws as well. But I always feel it came across a lot worse than she'd intended, because James remains the symbol of strength and courage for Harry (stag patronus).

Ah, I don't think it's realistic at all to assume that Snape and his Slytherin mates weren't jinxing people. Snape invented a lot of spells that were well-known by James and Sirius and, I'm betting, quite a few others. They didn't learn those spells by reading the margins of his potions book. He had to have introduced them himself.

Well I am going by the canon and in the canon there are no incidents of Snape hexing anyone besides James. As for Snape's friends we do have canon that Mulciber did. Getting back to James my point was that not everyone he hexed was into the dark arts. Lily herself says that he hexed people who annoyed him. That was my only point.

I don't think trying to tear James down, in order to build Snape up, is the way to go. It's pretty clear from the big picture that James was a nice guy.

I am not trying to tear James down I was simply discussing his flaws. And again I never said James wasn't a nice guy. I think the canon shows that he was nice to the people he cared about. I think for the most part he changed for the better. When we discuss the James/Snape dynamic the canon is pretty clear IMO. James hated Snape and Snape hated James. It seems pretty apparent that James was the aggressor in the beginning. Does this absolve Snape completely? No and I never claimed it did. James did seem though from what we see in Deathly Hallows to pick on Snape from the beginning not the other way around. :)

What Lily said most likely had some truth in it, but everyone says things they don't really mean when they're angry.
I say that because there have been times when I have been discussion things said in the books in this thread and people simply reply saying that it's canon and it's true so we have to accept it.I'm sorry but I'm not going to make excuses for what Lily says,if she says that James went around hexing people who annoyed him then I don't see why there should be a different rule for him.

She would not have liked him if all she saw was arrogance, bullying, and an overall mean spirit. She definitely saw enough good in him to fall for him. Jo's pretty big on the "don't fall for the bad boys" front - remember her comments on all the Draco fangirls? - and so it would be kind of hypocritical of her to make Lily fall for such a 'bad boy
She also said when asked why Lily liked James 'Did she? you understand -your a woman' (something along those lines,I can't remember it exactly),which to me isn't the greatest of answers.And if Lily liked James while during the time of SWM then I'm afraid her opinion seems hypocritical.

But as for hexing, I took it as meaning that the people who 'annoyed' him really were people he hated
I'm sorry but hating someone and finding some annoying are two different things,people who annoyed him ,to me,means anyone who said anything he didn't like.She said ppl,not specifically Slytherins,giving the impression that he hexed ppl from other houses too(maybe even Gryffindor).


She stated quite plainly: he didn't use Dark Magic, and he saved Snape's life.
There's actually a debate about how much Lily knew of the prank,it's a big discussion so I won't get into that.

Something I just randomly found:

The Name Origin and the Name Meaning of JamesThere are many saints called James, the most famous being Saint James the Elder, one of the Apostles. As a common name it has many namesakes, such as the author James Joyce or the fictional British spy James Bond ("007"). The name has been used for royalty: James has been the name of two Kings of England (James I ruled from 1603-1625, and James II from 1685-1688). In the UK James was the sixth most popular name for boys in 2006; it ranked 16th in the US in the same year.
Ooooh! I much prefer the connection to James Bond than the "supplanter" stuff. And something tells me James would too, if he'd ever been to a Muggle cinema! :) There's the King James Bible too ...

I say that because there have been times when I have been discussion things said in the books in this thread and people simply reply saying that it's canon and it's true so we have to accept it.I'm sorry but I'm not going to make excuses for what Lily says,if she says that James went around hexing people who annoyed him then I don't see why there should be a different rule for him.

I'm not making exceptions of James. Judging by everything else Lily said, it doesn't sound like she was saying things she normally would. She made fun of Snape when she'd just been defending him. That doesn't sound normal to me. So I don't take everything she said as something she'd say in a different situation.


She also said when asked why Lily liked James 'Did she? you understand -your a woman' (something along those lines,I can't remember it exactly),which to me isn't the greatest of answers.And if Lily liked James while during the time of SWM then I'm afraid her opinion seems hypocritical.

Do you really think James's whole character was displayed in SWM? Cause that would be a very one-dimentional character. I doubt what Jo meant was that Lily liked him despite him being a terrible person - I think she meant, despite seemingly hating him, Lily did like him, because girls often insult the guys they like. And why did she like him? For his good heart, things she must have seen at other times (the SS incident is one of them). It's not hypocritical at all, in my opinion. If James were all around a bad person, it wouldn't say much when other, respectable characters praised Harry for being like his father.


I'm sorry but hating someone and finding some annoying are two different things,people who annoyed him ,to me,means anyone who said anything he didn't like.She said ppl,not specifically Slytherins,giving the impression that he hexed ppl from other houses too(maybe even Gryffindor).

This is my opinion, but putting myself in Lily's shoes, saying "hexing Slytherins that you hate" does not sound like a very effective way of insulting James, which she seemed to be attempting to do. I believe that, with the information given that James hexed people that "annoyed" him, and that he deeply despised the Dark Arts, James hexed those whom he hated, not just people who annoyed him. We have no canon to support him hexing people from other houses; all we know is Snape. And the reasons he hexes Snape are that he's into the Dark Arts, and he's friends with Lily (and James suspected more of Snape, so that was another reason). I draw my conclusions from there, but I respect if you see it completely differently.

These are example of his behaviour with his friends which was obviously good,I don't think we have any of behaviour with other people at Hogwarts.

I agree, except in the last example - James was showing a good heart toward his enemy. I think that is why JKR included his saving Snape; so that we would understand it was a part of James' character to have a good heart, not just toward his friends. I respect your opinion if you view this distinctly. :)


Forgive me if I'm wrong but are you implying that what Lily said should be over-looked becasue she was angry?Becasue if so then there are a great many statements in the book that can then be overlooked.What Lily said I believe is true,which people always take it as when she speaks in James's favour ,I think it should be the same when she speaks against him.

What I was saying there is that Lily was exaggerating. I don't overlook her statement, but I take it with a grain of salt because she was angry. James certainly did hex people - like Fred and George - he was a prankster. And too, if someone was annoying, they would likely be the prime candidate for a prank. I would guess that like in Harry's day, the Slytherins annoyed the Gryffindors, including James, the most. But pranking was not reserved for them I am sure. Fred and George were impartial - hexing one and all including their housemates. I assume James and the Marauders were the same. I personally thought the antics were funny, but I realize everyone will have their own take on pranking and I can respect that. :)

As for all statements said in anger by everyone in the series being exaggerated in terms of my analysis; I look to the circumstances and find that exaggeration often occurred (Ron speaking to Harry when he left the camp in DH; Harry speaking to DD following Sirius' death in his office; Harry speaking to Ron & Hermione after being kept home and out of the 'know' during the summer in OOTP; Harry speaking to Lupin at #12; Lily speaking to James and Snape in SWM) - within the context of the conversations, what was said was true, but exaggerations were made and words were heated and spat out recklessly. Generally the individual exaggerating was personally traumatized in some way. In some of the cases we have narration wherein Harry even indicates feelings of remorse for having exaggerated and over-reacted (ron's leaving/Lupin at 12G) - and in the others it was pretty obvious under the circumstances imo.

Other times the words spoken in anger are totally valid at the moment the person is speaking (Harry speaking to Sirius in the S. Shack POA prior to finding out the truth; Harry speaking to Voldemort (always); Lupin/Sirius speaking to Harry about stopping Occulmency; etc.)

So it depends on the situation for me, when I am carrying out an analysis. :)

Do you really think James's whole character was displayed in SWM?

I'm not judging his whole characters on this,there are other factors in my eyes aswell.It's hypocritical to me if she dislikes many of his traits but like him.Later I can understand ,but liking him at that time is hypocritical,but that just my opinion.

We have no canon to support him hexing people from other houses; all we know is Snape. And the reasons he hexes Snape are that he's into the Dark Arts, and he's friends with Lily (and James suspected more of Snape, so that was another reason). I draw my conclusions from there, but I respect if you see it completely differently.

Actually we have the detention cards.I think it's just a matter of opinion though,to me 'anyone who annoys you' means anyone who gets in his way or says something he doesn't like.

I agree, except in the last example - James was showing a good heart toward his enemy. I think that is why JKR included his saving Snape; so that we would understand it was a part of James' character to have a good heart, not just toward his friends. I respect your opinion if you view this distinctly.

I can't really call it good heart because a couple of days later he's back to the hexing,it made no difference in his behaviour at all.He saved Snape ,that's a fact but it becomes a bit of an empty gesture in light of what happens later IMO.

I'm not judging his whole characters on this,there are other factors in my eyes aswell.It's hypocritical to me if she dislikes many of his traits but like him.Later I can understand ,but liking him at that time is hypocritical,but that just my opinion.

Well I believe she must have seen his good side to like him. We don't know exactly what part of James she did like, but I doubt it was something trivial like "well he's a good Quidditch player"; she just doesn't strike me like that kind of person. So if she did like him, I'd assume that James showed quite a bit of his good character around her. I don't really see how it's hypocritical of her.


Actually we have the detention cards.I think it's just a matter of opinion though,to me 'anyone who annoys you' means anyone who gets in his way or says something he doesn't like.

The detention cards never say what he did. I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this one?

The detention cards never say what he did. I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this one?

I think in the detention cards it says James blows someones head up twice their size. *goes to look at book*

Well I believe she must have seen his good side to like him. We don't know exactly what part of James she did like, but I doubt it was something trivial like "well he's a good Quidditch player"; she just doesn't strike me like that kind of person. So if she did like him, I'd assume that James showed quite a bit of his good character around her. I don't really see how it's hypocritical of her.

The detention cards never say what he did. I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this one?

Well there were alot of them and personally I see that as enough evidence.But I think your right,we should agree to disagree.

The detention cards never say what he did. I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this one?

It's pretty obvious Snape went to the trouble of presenting Harry with files on his father and the other Marauders. We don't know that there weren't incident files on Snape as a Hogwarts student. Considering that Snape was the source of what Harry saw, we can safely say the sample was highly biased.

It seems pretty apparent that James was the aggressor in the beginning. Does this absolve Snape completely? No and I never claimed it did. James did seem though from what we see in Deathly Hallows to pick on Snape from the beginning not the other way around.

I don't see that, though. I thought Snape's "You'd better be in Slytherin!" was a fairly aggressive statement. Slytherin's reputation was well known in the wizarding community and was certainly not the House most people would have chosen to be sorted into.

Well I am going by the canon and in the canon there are no incidents of Snape hexing anyone besides James. As for Snape's friends we do have canon that Mulciber did. Getting back to James my point was that not everyone he hexed was into the dark arts. Lily herself says that he hexed people who annoyed him. That was my only point.

Ah, I can appreciate your point, but I honestly think SWM has been taken to extremes. Hexing and getting hexed was kind of a way of life at Hogwarts, as we saw during Harry's time there. Why else would Filch have such extensive files? What James and Sirius did that afternoon was bad, yes, but it was Snape who actually drew blood. I think there's a bit of fine irony in the fact that Snape ended up hanging upside-down by his own nasty little spell-invention.

Jo's pretty big on the "don't fall for the bad boys" front - remember her comments on all the Draco fangirls? - and so it would be kind of hypocritical of her to make Lily fall for such a 'bad boy'.
Absolutely! James is the hero who got the girl. Of course he had his faults. We all have faults. I have faults, you have faults, even Morgoth probably has faults! But James is still a predominantly good and heroic character, Harry's father, Lily's loving husband, member of the Order who defied Voldemort three times ... and he (or his shade) was summoned back from the dead to support Harry twice in times of crisis, and he was everything he needed to be!

I think in the detention cards it says James blows someones head up twice their size. *goes to look at book*
Luckily, in the magical world, it's easy to shrink someone's head (or teeth) back to normal. Neville turned into a canary, but that doesn't prove Fred and George were evil!

Well I am going by the canon and in the canon there are no incidents of Snape hexing anyone besides James.
I've always assumed that the fact that Snape spent his free time inventing his own range of hexes, indicated that he actually used some of them. And he must have needed to practise them on someone too! I wonder who he practised the toenail growing hex on?

Luckily, in the magical world, it's easy to shrink someone's head (or teeth) back to normal. Neville turned into a canary, but that doesn't prove Fred and George were evil!

I never said that made James evil. I was only answering a poster. It is however a mean thing to do IMO.


I've always assumed that the fact that Snape spent his free time inventing his own range of hexes, indicated that he actually used some of them. And he must have needed to practise them on someone too! I wonder who he practised the toenail growing hex on?

This is a good point. It very well could be that Snape used them on James.

*looks at thread title*

Yep still the James thread, not the James and Snape ZOMG!WHOIZMOREEVOL thread.

How about we keep this on James?

Welcome to the post-DH discussion of James Potter. Previous discussion without spoilers can be found here:James Potter: Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=101942)

1. James is Harry’s father but he died before Harry had the chance to get to know him. Is he a good role model? Would he have become a good father? How has he influenced Harry’s present life?


I believe James was a good role model for Harry and had a big impact on Harry's present life. Harry first became acquainted with his father via word of mouth. The Dursleys were not kind or complete in their characterization; however Hagrid gave Harry a better idea about who his father was (including the fact that he had been a wizard).

Harry got a personal glimpse of his father's character when Shade!James returned in GoF. Harry saw James as a father who loved and cared deeply about him, offering instructions and encouragement when he faced Voldemort. I think that scene showed several of James' characteristics: determination, leadership, good strategist, clear and relevant eloquation, compassion, fortitude and an ability to foster courage.

Harry admired his father and held him on a pedistal until OOTP when he learned that his father, like all wizards, had flaws in his character. However, Harry soon realized that his father was much like himself and was a decent and good man at heart.

Harry called upon his father in the DH reunion scene to return in his dire time of need. The love, comfort, compassion and courage that James had shown him, as a shade, as well as in his heart through the years (where he realized in his father had always resided), was what Harry craved in that moment. James was able to provide those things for Harry as he always had.

I believe James would have been an excellent father for Harry in the same way he was in spirit form from the afterlife. :)

I know this has been discussed a few pages ago, but I really would like to share my thoughts on the Draco and James comparison.

Simlarities

One of their similarities is their childhood. Both Draco and James come from rich pureblood families. They also look up to their father - in Draco's case it's Lucius and in James's case it's Mr. Potter. Draco and James are described as being pampered and well cared for. Neither of them have siblings, either.

Another similarity is that they both have a rival. In James's case it's Snape and in Draco's case it's Harry. The rivals, Harry and Snape, are half-bloods who came from unpleasant childhoods. The relationship between the rivals is similar in both cases. According to canon the hexing is mutual between the two of them. James and Draco were at the recieving end of the Sectumsempra curse from their enemies. (Snape labeled Sectumsempra "for enemies," and if there's one person Snape hates, it's James.) Both of them have to go through Hogwarts dealing with one person that they despise.

Differences

James and Draco's choice of friends is a great example of how they are different. James's friends are the type of people that Draco looks down upon. First, there's Remus who's a werewolf. Remus's clothes are described as being shabby in the picture that Harry sees in DH. Draco, like many other witches and wizards, has a prejudice against werewolves. And many times throughout PoA Draco makes fun of Remus for the state of his clothes. Another one of James's friends is Sirius, a pureblood. Sirius hated the ideas that his parents taught him and ran away after he had enough. This screams blood traitor to me! But look at Draco, the one who finds Weasleys to be a disgrace. Several times throughout the series Draco finds Hagrid to be pathetic, especially after finding out he's half giant. In CoS Draco implies that he thinks Dumbledore's ideas are foolish. James would definitely disagree with Draco on this especially because James was close with both of them. Draco chooses his friends by his idea of a hierarchy whereas James doesn't take those into account.

Even though both characters grew up in the Wizarding world, their views on people are vastly different. A lot of witches and wizards fear werewolves, but that doesn't influence James's choices. James, instead of ending his friendship with Remus, actually sought ways to help him during full moon! Some purebloods (or those who aren't, in the case of Voldemort) strongly believe in keeping old families' bloodlines "pure." James, a pureblood, obviously doesn't care. Draco calls others with Muggle parents the derogatory term, Mudblood, but when James heard Snape call Lily that, he was outraged. Their choices in wives prove this as well. James married a muggleborn and Draco married a pureblood. (I'm assuming Mrs. Malfoy is a pureblood based on Ron's comment about Rose marrying Scorpius.) James obviously doesn't care about the background of a person's family whereas Draco finds that incredibly important.

Harry mentions in HBP that Draco had a infatuation with the Dark Arts. According to Sirius, James did not. This difference is pretty straight forward, I think.

And lastly I'd like to point out their roles in wars. James, during the first war, was a member of the Order of the Phoenix. He and Lily thrice defied Voldemort. James was murdered by Voldemort because of his attempts to save his wife and son time. Draco joined the Death Eaters. In the end Draco really didn't want to be one of them anymore like Regulus didn't. But in the Battle of Hogwarts Draco tries to convince a DE that he is on his/her side as well. This is my opinion, but I really can't see James doing that. I imagine James out there in battle, proud to be fighting against the DEs.

Conclusion

All of what I've said enforces my belief that childhood upbringing is not a good enough excuse for bad choices. Harry, Snape and Voldemort all had pretty bad childhoods, but each made different choices. Harry made the choice to remain on the good side all his life, Voldemort made the choice to be on the bad side all his life and Snape made the choice to go on the bad side and switch to the good side later on. JKR has strongly pressed the importance of choices as a clue to one's character, and I think James's and Draco's differences in choices show how - despite their similarities - both turned out very differently.

Sorry if that was confusing to read. These are just my thoughts, of course. :)

All of what I've said enforces my belief that childhood upbringing is not a good enough excuse for bad choices. Harry, Snape and Voldemort all had pretty bad childhoods, but each made different choices. Harry made the choice to remain on the good side all his life, Voldemort made the choice to be on the bad side all his life and Snape made the choice to go on the bad side and switch to the good side later on. JKR has strongly pressed the importance of choices as a clue to one's character, and I think James's and Draco's differences in choices show how - despite their similarities - both turned out very differently.

Nicely put!

I've had a problem for some time with this James-is-like-Draco bit. Really, the only similarities are essentially shallow ones: both were purebloods and were fond of jinxing people for a time. In all the markers that really count, James was head and heels over Draco as the better man.

I've also had a problem with all these poor-little-Snape bits. Snape made his bed hard and, unfortunately, had to sleep in it for the rest of his life. He did these things himself, mind you; James didn't make those choices for him, nor did he predestine Snape to make them by being "mean" to him. Tobias Snape and Eileen Prince didn't make those choices for him, either. Blaming everyone else for Snape's bad choices greatly demeans one of the central tenets of Jo's masterpiece: that of the power of individual choice.

James Potter made the right choices for the most part. One of the tragedies of the series is that he and Lily had to die so young and were thus unable to grace Harry's life - and that of the wider wizarding world.

Nicely put!

I've had a problem for some time with this James-is-like-Draco bit. Really, the only similarities are essentially shallow ones: both were purebloods and were fond of jinxing people for a time. In all the markers that really count, James was head and heels over Draco as the better man.

I've also had a problem with all these poor-little-Snape bits. Snape made his bed hard and, unfortunately, had to sleep in it for the rest of his life. He did these things himself, mind you; James didn't make those choices for him, nor did he predestine Snape to make them by being "mean" to him. Tobias Snape and Eileen Prince didn't make those choices for him, either. Blaming everyone else for Snape's bad choices greatly demeans one of the central tenets of Jo's masterpiece: that of the power of individual choice.

James Potter made the right choices for the most part. One of the tragedies of the series is that he and Lily had to die so young and were thus unable to grace Harry's life - and that of the wider wizarding world.

Very nicely put, I agree. James character I believe was the result of the choices he made and what I believe was shown was a strong individual with a morally meritous belief system. I feel he was compassionate, kind, a strong leader, intelligent and grew to be a mature and loving individual who cared deeply for his family, friends and the wizard world at large. That was my impression from the reading. :)

Nicely put!

I've had a problem for some time with this James-is-like-Draco bit. Really, the only similarities are essentially shallow ones: both were purebloods and were fond of jinxing people for a time. In all the markers that really count, James was head and heels over Draco as the better man.


I agree, their similarities are very small. Hexing was not a big part of James's personality. Harry is seeing hexing random people with the spells form HBP, but does that doesn't mean it's one major part of his personality. I think that's the same with James. Though he bullied for quite a while, there was a lot more important things about his personality that makes him unique compared to other bullies in the HP series (Draco, Snape and Dudley).

Better comparisons - in my opinion - for James would be Sirius and Harry. And Harry's son, James, of course. :p

I agree, their similarities are very small. Hexing was not a big part of James's personality. Harry is seeing hexing random people with the spells form HBP, but does that doesn't mean it's one major part of his personality. I think that's the same with James. Though he bullied for quite a while, there was a lot more important things about his personality that makes him unique compared to other bullies in the HP series (Draco, Snape and Dudley).

Better comparisons - in my opinion - for James would be Sirius and Harry. And Harry's son, James, of course. :p


I think that is a very good comparison set. I hadn't thought of James character in those terms before. However, I agree; James does seem as if he managed to keep a good opinion of his own self-worth despite what others might say of him, like Sirius and Harry. Too, I think that he was likely his own worst critic of his character (again like Sirius and Harry) - as that normally accompanys a trait of being able to keep your self-worth intact, despite what others may say about you. :)

originally posted by purplehawk
I've had a problem for some time with this James-is-like-Draco bit. Really, the only similarities are essentially shallow ones: both were purebloods and were fond of jinxing people for a time. In all the markers that really count, James was head and heels over Draco as the better man.

I've also had a problem with all these poor-little-Snape bits. Snape made his bed hard and, unfortunately, had to sleep in it for the rest of his life. He did these things himself, mind you; James didn't make those choices for him, nor did he predestine Snape to make them by being "mean" to him. Tobias Snape and Eileen Prince didn't make those choices for him, either. Blaming everyone else for Snape's bad choices greatly demeans one of the central tenets of Jo's masterpiece: that of the power of individual choice.

James Potter made the right choices for the most part. One of the tragedies of the series is that he and Lily had to die so young and were thus unable to grace Harry's life - and that of the wider wizarding world.

I agree. The similarities between James and Draco are exceedingly small. It comes down to choice. Draco never seemed to really get over bullying until he was forced into Voldemort's service, and then he suddenly matured from fear of retribution. He made many wrong choices, and in the end, we never are really sure which side he chose. Draco is shown as loyal to the family but he never chooses a side.

James may've been a bully, but his end choice was clear. He chose to side with the right, no matter what that meant. He chose to die for what he believed, and to defy Voldemort three times. Draco never does this. The similarities end when the choices are made.

And about Snape, I think the choices of Snape and James are what cemented Lily's choice in romance. Snape loved the Dark Arts, and it seems as though he didn't understand love. He loved Lily, but he couldn't get past his love of the Dark Arts and his friends to understand that until it was too late. James however, was able to choose a side, and was apparently quite vocal about hating the Dark Arts. The fact that Snape couldn't give it up is not James fault, or the fault of his parents. It was Snape's choice, and he had to deal with the consequences.

I agree. The similarities between James and Draco are exceedingly small. It comes down to choice. Draco never seemed to really get over bullying until he was forced into Voldemort's service, and then he suddenly matured from fear of retribution. He made many wrong choices, and in the end, we never are really sure which side he chose. Draco is shown as loyal to the family but he never chooses a side.

James may've been a bully, but his end choice was clear. He chose to side with the right, no matter what that meant. He chose to die for what he believed, and to defy Voldemort three times. Draco never does this. The similarities end when the choices are made.

And about Snape, I think the choices of Snape and James are what cemented Lily's choice in romance. Snape loved the Dark Arts, and it seems as though he didn't understand love. He loved Lily, but he couldn't get past his love of the Dark Arts and his friends to understand that until it was too late. James however, was able to choose a side, and was apparently quite vocal about hating the Dark Arts. The fact that Snape couldn't give it up is not James fault, or the fault of his parents. It was Snape's choice, and he had to deal with the consequences.

I agree, I feel that there were many signs of James' maturity. I believe one of them was Lily's doe patronus forming in response to James' stag. Lily was looking for maturity and fell in love when she saw that happening. Thus her doe did the change up or formation. Also when you have kids you mature and fighting in the Order was another sign of maturity; they wouldn't allow crazed youths to run around with the Order, nor could James and his wife defy Voldy 3 times without maturity behind their actions. They were all still only 21, so James and Lily were young at heart and likely in someways still finding maturity when they died...I don't expect James would have reached the level of maturity of DD or someone of 100 years, but I believe James was a little more mature due to the danger and trauma about him.

I am very, very sceptical about James' personality.
I know that several people speak highly of him - DD, Hagrid, Lupin - but they may all be biased, because he joined the order and then he had a legitimite focus for his aggressions.
He was quite a bully at Hogwarts and I wouldn't easily believe that he changed that personality trait.
People, who are friendly to Harry probably do not want to hurt him, so they are likely to downplay James' character - after all he's dead, and one doesn't speak ill of the dead.

I am very, very sceptical about James' personality.
I know that several people speak highly of him - DD, Hagrid, Lupin - but they may all be biased, because he joined the order and then he had a legitimite focus for his aggressions.
He was quite a bully at Hogwarts and I wouldn't easily believe that he changed that personality trait.
People, who are friendly to Harry probably do not want to hurt him, so they are likely to downplay James' character - after all he's dead, and one doesn't speak ill of the dead.

Ah well, the books tell us differently. We have few images of James while he lived, but loads of on-page canon attesting to what a great guy he was - as husband, father, friend, and member of the Order of the Phoenix. I don't think joining the Order was an automatic claim to being well-thought-of.

I am very, very sceptical about James' personality.
I know that several people speak highly of him - DD, Hagrid, Lupin - but they may all be biased, because he joined the order and then he had a legitimite focus for his aggressions.
He was quite a bully at Hogwarts and I wouldn't easily believe that he changed that personality trait.
People, who are friendly to Harry probably do not want to hurt him, so they are likely to downplay James' character - after all he's dead, and one doesn't speak ill of the dead.

I respect your opinion. While Snape had no problem speaking ill of the dead when it came to James, he was really the only one who did so in the series. I would imagine that James kept a bit of the bully in him directed at enemies, at least I hope he did as he would need it in defeating the DEs. I imagine it is the case because he, with Lily, defied Voldemort thrice. Actually many more characters spoke well of James than you mentioned; McGonagall, Moody, Kingsley, Molly, Sirius, and even, of all people, Voldemort. I don't see what reason a person like Mad Eye Moody would have for misconstruing James character - and Kingsley spoke out of turn, he could have remained silent as he was with a crowd of people and volunteered to speak. So I think there was sufficient evidence in canon to show that James had matured into a very upstanding and good person that was well liked.

I think one can look to Harry to see James' character. Harry was a bit arrogant, a bit of a bully, a rule breaker, a bit of a prankster and impetuous; but he was also kind hearted, compassionate, trusting of his friends, dedicated to the good cause and loving. Harry had his mum's disposition which tempered those characteristics at times, imo, and that is the person I imagine James grew up to be - albeit a bit more mature than Harry. :)

I am very, very sceptical about James' personality.
I know that several people speak highly of him - DD, Hagrid, Lupin - but they may all be biased, because he joined the order and then he had a legitimite focus for his aggressions.
He was quite a bully at Hogwarts and I wouldn't easily believe that he changed that personality trait.
People, who are friendly to Harry probably do not want to hurt him, so they are likely to downplay James' character - after all he's dead, and one doesn't speak ill of the dead.

I agree with Purplehawk and Wickedwickedboy. I respect that you are sceptical about his character, and I can understand that. However I feel that, looking back over the entire series, there is much more evidence of James being a good man than him being a bad one.

First of all, the only evidence we have of his bad side are two memories. I know, memories in a pensieve are unbiased. But the choice of memories isn't. Those were two memories of James in his youth, both around Snape, who he disliked very much. I agree that James was a bully, and I don't intend to find excuses for his behaviour. But I like looking at the big picture when thinking of his character, because I have yet to come across a person who has not done some form of bullying themselves. I've seen and heard my friends do somethings that would have made me think very badly of them if I had not known them beforehand - and I've done and said things like that as well. Yet is everyone that one dimensional? Not at all.

So yes, he was a bully, and he was arrogant, and he got carried away with it, like Sirius put it. I've met people like that, and while I couldn't generally stand them while they did that kind of thing, getting to know them better showed me a polar opposite side of their personality. And we don't just have to imagine this good side of James; we have characters' words on it, and events to support it. Here are some good things we know about James:

James was not prejudiced. He befriended Sirius, who was from a family with completely different social views than James's own family, and were all Slytherins and big supporters of Voldemort; although James himself was very rich, he befriended Remus, who seemed rather poor from the state of his clothing (this reminds me of the friendship between Harry and Ron, actually), and not to mention, Remus was a werewolf, and instead of running away at this knowledge, James became an animagus for his friend's sake; and he befriended Peter, a boy who always struck me as the kind of boy who would be very unpopular due to his insecurities. Another point to show he was not biased was his stance on blood status. James was a pureblood, and in a society where his family line placed him above others, he did not see himself that way, and refused to use the word "Mudblood", and was very active against people using it (his reaction to Snape's use of the word shows that quite clearly).

James was also very loyal. He never breathed a word to another that his friend was a werewolf, and spent years trying to become an animagus to keep his friend company once a month for a night. I'd say that's extremely loyal, personally. He trusted his friends with his life, and while we can say that was a mistake because it lead to his death, it also showed a lot about his good character. He saw the best in his friends and trusted them immensely, even when others did not. This, as Remus pointed, is very much like Harry, and I admire that quality in both of them.

James sort of had that "saving people thing" that Harry had. I take this from the Shrieking Shack incident. I don't think Jo simply put that in to make Snape annoyed by owing a life debt to James, because it hardly really came into play anyways. I think it was to show something about James's character. The moment he heard what Sirius had done, he'd gone straight down the tunnel to retrieve Snape. Now, James wasn't transfigured while he did this, so he was definitely in as much danger of being bitten or killed as Snape was, and yet he put his life on the line for someone he hated. Many have said that he only did it to keep his best friends from becoming murderers; well, I don't doubt that was a factor, but I don't understand what the point of introducing that whole storyline was if James had not done it also because he did not think Snape deserved to die. Harry does not wish Death upon even the Death Eaters, and I believe that's another parallel to James. Even if Dumbledore said Harry's deepest nature was more like his mother's, I think Harry still had many, many things in common with his father.

We're told he was a very forgiving person, and that he would have come to forgive Peter. I don't think many people would be able to do that. Sirius and Remus were prepared to kill Peter, and I think I would have felt the same in their position. But Harry stepped in and stopped them, and someone (gah, forgot who - I just watched the movie, so I might be thinking of the wrong person) told Harry that his father would have done the same thing. Peter sold James and Lily out to Voldemort when he could have simply told the Order what kind of situation he was in and gotten protection from Dumbledore - but Peter took the easy way out and clung to Voldemort's power, essentially killing Lily and James. Peter made excuses for himself and hid while Sirius was sent to Azkaban for over a decade, and then he returned Voldemort to power, and worked for him against Harry... and yet James would have forgiven him, for all fo this! That says so much right there.

And the most obvious one, James was on the good side, fighting against Voldemort. I know this doesn't necessarily make him a wonderful person, but it is definitely a good thing. He believed in what he was fighting for, strongly enough to lay his own life on the line. He would have died to protect those he loved, and some he did not even know. He did die protecting his family, without a wand, facing Voldemort. This showed his bravery and his love for his family.

So personally, I find it hard to see those two memories of James as a child and let them taint his character. He was arrogant, yes, but we're told he deflated his head. We were shown no proof that he did not deflate his head, so why believe so? He grew up, like every human being on the planet. Lily fell in love with him, when she could have fallen for any other guy in the school. I think that says a lot, too, knowing the person Lily was. And, I know this will seem trivial, but he was chosen as Head Boy, so he definitely had some good leadership qualities, and other things that Dumbledore admired enough.

I personally loved seeing James's faults. Before OotP, we only heard Snape calling him arrogant, and that was just kind of "eh, okay, whatever". Everyone, including Harry, still had this image of James as some hero. I hate when characters appear to have no flaws. I found James much more attractive as a character once we saw those flaws, because he still, in my mind, turned out as a good person, despite his flaws. It's like Dumbledore - I love him much more now that we know his darker past. It says a lot that he grew out of it, like James did.

Hagrid once told Harry that there was "no higher praise" he could give him than telling him he'd done what his father would have done. It might sound very biased, as it is Hagrid, and Hagrid speaks sometimes too highly of those he loves - but Hagrid's heart is in the right place, and so I don't think he was way off the mark. Sometimes it's the little things, like Rosmerta saying James and Sirius always made her laugh, or that he was Head Boy, that tell us a lot about a person. :)

I would comment on James's character, but LilyDreamsOn pretty much said everything I've been thinking about his character. Great post. :)

Many have said that he only did it to keep his best friends from becoming murderers; well, I don't doubt that was a factor, but I don't understand what the point of introducing that whole storyline was if James had not done it also because he did not think Snape deserved to die.
During that incident, I do think that James was worrying a lot about Remus and Sirius. However, if the situations were different and his best friends weren't involved, I think James would have gone down to save Snape. Why? Because, according to Dumbledore, James would've saved Peter. William Blake said this quote I really like: "It is easier to forgive an enemy than to forgive a friend." I agree. Peter put his own life above the lives of James's family, and James thought Peter was his best friend. If James was willing to save someone who killed his family, I'm sure James would have tried to save Snape. What Peter did to James was much, much worse than what Snape did to him.

But Harry stepped in and stopped them, and someone (gah, forgot who - I just watched the movie, so I might be thinking of the wrong person) told Harry that his father would have done the same thing.
It's Dumbledore who tells Harry that in the book. :)

I know that several people speak highly of him - DD, Hagrid, Lupin - but they may all be biased, because he joined the order and then he had a legitimite focus for his aggressions.
Mundungus was in the Order, but that didn't stop members (such as Mad-Eye) from insulting him. Before Snape kills DD, many members of the Order didn't like Snape. I think that the members realized that - like Sirius said - the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters.

I personally loved seeing James's faults. Before OotP, we only heard Snape calling him arrogant, and that was just kind of "eh, okay, whatever". Everyone, including Harry, still had this image of James as some hero. I hate when characters appear to have no flaws. I found James much more attractive as a character once we saw those flaws, because he still, in my mind, turned out as a good person, despite his flaws. It's like Dumbledore - I love him much more now that we know his darker past. It says a lot that he grew out of it, like James did.
Before PoA, I was already a Marauder fan, but I liked Sirius and Remus more than James because James, well . . . he seemed too perfect. I liked James for what he did for his friends/family then, but it wasn't until OotP that I started to really like his character. He bullied, yes, but according to canon he changed. Just because we don't see the change doesn't mean it didn't occur.

But if he didn't change by seventh year, I'm positive he changed when Harry was born. How can a person not change after having a baby?

During that incident, I do think that James was worrying a lot about Remus and Sirius. However, if the situations were different and his best friends weren't involved, I think James would have gone down to save Snape. Why? Because, according to Dumbledore, James would've saved Peter. William Blake said this quote I really like: "It is easier to forgive an enemy than to forgive a friend." I agree. Peter put his own life above the lives of James's family, and James thought Peter was his best friend. If James was willing to save someone who killed his family, I'm sure James would have tried to save Snape. What Peter did to James was much, much worse than what Snape did to him.

Well said! And that's a lovely quote, and I feel it's very true and fitting. I do think that James would have gone after Snape even if Remus and Sirius had not been involved - it seems to me that Harry inherrited that trait from his father.


It's Dumbledore who tells Harry that in the book. :)

Haha, thanks. I thought it was either Sirius, Remus, or Dumbledore...


Before PoA, I was already a Marauder fan, but I liked Sirius and Remus more than James because James, well . . . he seemed too perfect. I liked James for what he did for his friends/family then, but it wasn't until OotP that I started to really like his character. He bullied, yes, but according to canon he changed. Just because we don't see the change doesn't mean it didn't occur.

But if he didn't change by seventh year, I'm positive he changed when Harry was born. How can a person not change after having a baby?

Yeah, exactly. Seeing his faults fleshed him out more, and it made him more real. I felt it added a bit more flare to his character. I hate Mary-Sues, and it was nice to see James as an imperfect person.

I do believe he changed by seventh year, because Lily struck me as slightly stubborn, and I doubt she would have simply forgotten her opinion of him in a second, just because. I feel it would have taken something significant to make her change her mind about dating him. Also, I highly doubt Dumbledore would have made James Head Boy if he'd continued bullying like that. There were plenty of other boys in their year that could have qualified for the position, I'm sure, but James got it, and I don't think it was for nothing.

I do believe he changed by seventh year, because Lily struck me as slightly stubborn, and I doubt she would have simply forgotten her opinion of him in a second, just because. I feel it would have taken something significant to make her change her mind about dating him. Also, I highly doubt Dumbledore would have made James Head Boy if he'd continued bullying like that. There were plenty of other boys in their year that could have qualified for the position, I'm sure, but James got it, and I don't think it was for nothing.

I agree. If there's one character whose judgement I trust, it's Lily's. She does seem very stubborn, and I can't see her dating James if he never changed. In SWM, after Lily rants about what's wrong with James, it says that James tried and failed to look like he didn't care about what Lily thought. This is another similarity I see between James and Harry - they both are horrible at hiding their emotions. So I don't think James ever tricked Lily (or anyone, for the matter) into thinking he was mature. I can't see him being a master at hiding his true self. If he matured, Lily definitely would've noticed it, especially since she fancied him. ;)

I always imagined that James started to mature much more during sixth year and this influenced Dumbledore's decision in making James Head Boy. According to Dumbledore, he knew James pretty well, and I think if that's true, then he would've seen the change in James as well.

I agree. If there's one character whose judgement I trust, it's Lily's. She does seem very stubborn, and I can't see her dating James if he never changed. In SWM, after Lily rants about what's wrong with James, it says that James tried and failed to look like he didn't care about what Lily thought. This is another similarity I see between James and Harry - they both are horrible at hiding their emotions. So I don't think James ever tricked Lily (or anyone, for the matter) into thinking he was mature. I can't see him being a master at hiding his true self. If he matured, Lily definitely would've noticed it, especially since she fancied him. ;)

I always imagined that James started to mature much more during sixth year and this influenced Dumbledore's decision in making James Head Boy. According to Dumbledore, he knew James pretty well, and I think if that's true, then he would've seen the change in James as well.

Definitely. James was prolly a terrible liar, which I bet also helped in getting him lots of detentions (couldn't get out of them, rather). I think James just wasn't able to relax around Lily - Sirius and Remus said he always made a fool of himself around her. That's another little parallel to the Ginny/Harry relationship - James wasn't tricking Lily, he just couldn't relax around her and be himself. Once he deflated his head and matured, she probably saw that despite his making a fool of himself around her. Or after maturing, he might have gotten his hands on "Twelve Fail-Safe Ways to Charm Witches" *cough*. :)

But yeah, I'd imagine his change happened mostly during sixth year, otherwise Dumbledore wouldn't have much time to decide him worthy as Head Boy. I wonder, was James also Quidditch Captain? I could see it, judging by the fact that everyone always commented on the fact that Harry was a great flyer like his dad.

edit: btw, I love your signature, Beatifically! Lily and James really are like Elizabeth and Mr Darcy... I wouldn't be surprised if Jo was inspired by P&P for their relationship - she does love Jane Austen, after all.

I agree. If there's one character whose judgement I trust, it's Lily's.

Same here. She was a girl with her head on straight. :agree:

I always imagined that James started to mature much more during sixth year and this influenced Dumbledore's decision in making James Head Boy. According to Dumbledore, he knew James pretty well, and I think if that's true, then he would've seen the change in James as well.

I think so, too. There are characters in Potterverse who come across as eternally stuck in one place, but James Potter was not one of them.

I wonder, was James also Quidditch Captain? I could see it, judging by the fact that everyone always commented on the fact that Harry was a great flyer like his dad.

Yeah, he was. We found that out from Snape - who else? - in one of his rants about James being a rule-breaker, as in rules are for lesser men than quidditch captains.

Yeah, he was. We found that out from Snape - who else? - in one of his rants about James being a rule-breaker, as in rules are for lesser men than quidditch captains.

Really? Wow, I completely forgot about that. I was looking on the Lexicon and it never mentioned him being Quidditch Captain...

I may need to back away from that, actually. I'm having a bit of a memory in which Snape called James a "quidditch cup winner," rather than captain.

I may need to back away from that, actually. I'm having a bit of a memory in which Snape called James a "quidditch cup winner," rather than captain.

Haha, okay that makes sense. I think I remember that, but yikes, my memory's really bad... and to think, I just did a reread of the series. *facepalm*

But as I said, I really could see him as Quidditch Captain. It might have been a bit much being both Head Boy and Quidditch captain, though...

"Rules are for lesser mortals, not Quidditch Cup winners."

I think that's the exact quote. Might be from PoA?

Definitely. James was prolly a terrible liar, which I bet also helped in getting him lots of detentions (couldn't get out of them, rather). I think James just wasn't able to relax around Lily - Sirius and Remus said he always made a fool of himself around her. That's another little parallel to the Ginny/Harry relationship - James wasn't tricking Lily, he just couldn't relax around her and be himself. Once he deflated his head and matured, she probably saw that despite his making a fool of himself around her. Or after maturing, he might have gotten his hands on "Twelve Fail-Safe Ways to Charm Witches" *cough*.
Very nice Harry/Ginny parallel! Some of the things James did/said made Lily think that James was an arrogant bully. But I think those were what was always shown, and Lily didn't get a clear picture of who he was. I'm sure she got to see bits of it, but it was a bit . . . hidden. Whenever he was around Lily, he made a fool of himself and tried to impress Lily, but none of that worked. By the time seventh year rolled around, his maturity showed and I think James's best qualities truly got to shine then. Maybe then she realized how loyal and dedicated he was to what he believes in and those he loves.

edit: btw, I love your signature, Beatifically! Lily and James really are like Elizabeth and Mr Darcy... I wouldn't be surprised if Jo was inspired by P&P for their relationship - she does love Jane Austen, after all.
Thank you! :) I'm reading Pride and Prejudice right now, and I keep on thinking "Wow, this sounds so much like Lily and James." JKR probably read and enjoyed that book, and I think the relationship influenced the way she made Harry's parents' to be.

Yeah, he was. We found that out from Snape - who else? - in one of his rants about James being a rule-breaker, as in rules are for lesser men than quidditch captains.
Wow, Head Boy and Quidditch Captain? Quite a bit of responsibilities! And he got good grades . . . the guy definitely knows how to manage his time.

I may need to back away from that, actually. I'm having a bit of a memory in which Snape called James a "quidditch cup winner," rather than captain.

Snape called him a 'Quidditch Hero' in DH in the memories also. Snape's comments seem to indicate that he was jealous of James' popularity and athletic prowess. But to be honest, I don't think James thought about Snape all that much at all unless he appeared before him. It was Snape that followed them around. James was too busy...Quidditch, friends, pranking, studying, dating, planning and studying for things like the Marauder's map and becoming an animagi. He wouldn't have all that much free time.

James may have made captain, he was on the team for I while, no? But I think the point was that whatever his position, he was a star at it.

I am very, very sceptical about James' personality.
I know that several people speak highly of him - DD, Hagrid, Lupin - but they may all be biased, because he joined the order and then he had a legitimite focus for his aggressions.
He was quite a bully at Hogwarts and I wouldn't easily believe that he changed that personality trait.
There are different kinds of bullies, and I think James really did see his treatment of Snape as a kind of crusade against the Dark Arts. I'm not saying he was right, nor am I condoning what he did in any way. But it's canon that Snape fought back, hexing James at every opportunity, and it's also well established that James as an adult was a good and respectable man, who fought bravely and died a hero. He was a prat when he was a teenager - as very many teenagers are - but he grew up and straightened himself out, and we have the testimony of such reliable characters as Dumbledore, Hagrid, and McGonagall, that he became a fine man. And we can't forget that Lily, who stood up to James about bullying Snape, came to love him and married him, and seemed content in that marriage. We know she was a strong-willed lass who knew right from wrong, so I can't see her marrying him, still less being happy with him, if he was still a bullying git!

There are different kinds of bullies, and I think James really did see his treatment of Snape as a kind of crusade against the Dark Arts. I'm not saying he was right, nor am I condoning what he did in any way. But it's canon that Snape fought back, hexing James at every opportunity, and it's also well established that James as an adult was a good and respectable man, who fought bravely and died a hero. He was a prat when he was a teenager - as very many teenagers are - but he grew up and straightened himself out, and we have the testimony of such reliable characters as Dumbledore, Hagrid, and McGonagall, that he became a fine man. And we can't forget that Lily, who stood up to James about bullying Snape, came to love him and married him, and seemed content in that marriage. We know she was a strong-willed lass who knew right from wrong, so I can't see her marrying him, still less being happy with him, if he was still a bullying git!

Nice one, Anabel!

Here are a pair of quotes worth remembering:

"... I think James was everything Snape wanted to be - He was popular, he was good at Quidditch, good at pretty much everything. And Snape was just this little oddball who was up to his ears in the Dark Arts and James - whatever else he may have appeared to you, Harry - always hated the Dark Arts."

"... your father and Sirius were the best in the school at whatever they did - everyone thought they were the height of cool - "

As Wick said, above, Snape was jealous of James' popularity and athletic prowess - and, not least, of James' physical proximity to Lily. Given his well-documented nastiness toward Harry, it isn't difficult to image Snape stalking James and the other Marauders - always looking, as Sirius noted, for an infraction that might get them kicked out of school. I've always believed that Snape was more culpable in their mutual animosity than James was.

1. James is Harry’s father but he died before Harry had the chance to get to know him. Is he a good role model? Would he have become a good father? How has he influenced Harry’s present life?

Yes, I think he would have been a good role model. He fought hard for what he believed, was loyal to his friends and wife above all, and loved his son.

2. Why did James chose Sirius over Dumbledore as Secret Keeper? Didn’t he trust Dumbledore with his life?

Yes, but he trusted Sirius above anyone else and loved him as a brother. He knew that his family would be safe with Sirius.

3. James made Sirius Harry’s godfather. Was this a good decision?

Yes, it was. Sirius offered to adopt Harry, he died trying to protect Harry, he loved Harry with his whole heart...need I say more?

4. We got bits and pieces of James’ life. Has he matured over the years and become a better person?


Yes, he did, though I feel we got a biased perspective from his worst enemy. He did die for his wife and child after all!

5. What was James’ relationship to Lily Evans/Sirius Black/Peter Pettigrew/Remus Lupin/Albus Dumbledore/Minerva McGonagall/Frank and Alice Longbottom?

Lily- the love of his life
Sirius- his best friend/brother
Remus and Peter- trusted friends
Albus and Minerva- respected elders
Frank and Alice- friends in the Order?

6. How much of James' hatred of Snape do you think was jealousy over his friendship with Lily? Do you think he redeemed himself by saving his life in spite of this jealousy?

Didn't Jo say that Snape's relationship with Lily was a "factor" in his behavior towards Snape? I think other factors may have been Snape's interest in the dark arts and his status as a Slytherin. But mostly, I think he felt threatened by Snape because, until the end of 5th year, Lily was Snape's friend and wouldn't give James the time of day.

I wish we could have seen more of James in DH, but I guess we are supposed to accept that he changed. And I guess it would have been pretty unrealistic for Snape to include a positive memory of James in The Prince's Tale.

Does it bother anyone else when James is portrayed as desperate in the fandom? The general consensus is that he asked Lily out 1278782909 times since their first year! I like to think of him as someone who had a bit more self-confidence than to turn into a fanboy and someone who woud have been smart enough to leave Lily alone after SWM.

LilyDreamsOn- I lurve you siggy pic:rockon:

And we can't forget that Lily, who stood up to James about bullying Snape, came to love him and married him, and seemed content in that marriage. We know she was a strong-willed lass who knew right from wrong, so I can't see her marrying him, still less being happy with him, if he was still a bullying git!

:tu: My thoughts exactly. Lily saw beauty in Snape for a while but had to end the friendship later on because he was turning into a worse person. It's the opposite with James - James wasn't acting that great in the beginning, but he changed into a better man, and Lily fell in love with that person. Even though she fancied James in OotP, she didn't go out with him because he was being arrogant and bullied others. The only way I could imagine her going out with James is if he changed, and according to canon, he did.

Does it bother anyone else when James is portrayed as desperate in the fandom? The general consensus is that he asked Lily out 1278782909 times since their first year! I like to think of him as someone who had a bit more self-confidence than to turn into a fanboy and someone who woud have been smart enough to leave Lily alone after SWM.
I don't like that portrayal that much, either. I can imagine him asking Lily out a few times, but not every other day! It just makes him seem too clingy, and I always see him as being really independent. (Plus, stags also symbolize independence.)

I don't like that portrayal that much, either. I can imagine him asking Lily out a few times, but not every other day! It just makes him seem too clingy, and I always see him as being really independent. (Plus, stags also symbolize independence.)

Same from this peanut gallery. :lol: Lily spoke of his restlessness and his independence in the letter she wrote to Sirius, thanking him for Harry's birthday present. Contrast that to Sirius' restlessness when he was housebound in OotP. I think James and Sirius were eye-popping talented, competent, and competitive boys and, later, men.

This business of making him appear obsessive about Lily is, IMHO, bunk. It's almost like transposing Snape's personality on James when the two were polar opposites. If anyone obsessed over Lily, it was Snape - not James - and we know that Snape tended to obsess over just about everything, not least among them his near-lifelong hatred of James and the way he transferred it to Harry, James' son.

Same from this peanut gallery. :lol: Lily spoke of his restlessness and his independence in the letter she wrote to Sirius, thanking him for Harry's birthday present. Contrast that to Sirius' restlessness when he was housebound in OotP. I think James and Sirius were eye-popping talented, competent, and competitive boys and, later, men.

This business of making him appear obsessive about Lily is, IMHO, bunk. It's almost like transposing Snape's personality on James when the two were polar opposites. If anyone obsessed over Lily, it was Snape - not James - and we know that Snape tended to obsess over just about everything, not least among them his near-lifelong hatred of James and the way he transferred it to Harry, James' son.

I agree - but some people look at male teenagers pursuit of girls as 'obsession' - which always bugged me. Some teenage girls made it VERY hard on guys. I mean, you had to like put every effort into it to go out with some of them. And when there are so many that don't take effort, it gives you no experience for trying to figure out how to get the tough ones to go out with you. Nonetheless, in the end, James got the girl and won her love because he was just cool like that. :lol:

Same from this peanut gallery. :lol: Lily spoke of his restlessness and his independence in the letter she wrote to Sirius, thanking him for Harry's birthday present. Contrast that to Sirius' restlessness when he was housebound in OotP. I think James and Sirius were eye-popping talented, competent, and competitive boys and, later, men.

This business of making him appear obsessive about Lily is, IMHO, bunk. It's almost like transposing Snape's personality on James when the two were polar opposites. If anyone obsessed over Lily, it was Snape - not James - and we know that Snape tended to obsess over just about everything, not least among them his near-lifelong hatred of James and the way he transferred it to Harry, James' son.

Good point about the differences in the way Snape and James felt about Lily. Some people think James was obsessive about Lily, but that never seemed to fit in with his character. James grew to love and stay loyal to Lily till he died, but obsessive? Doesn't sound like James.

According to Dumbledore, James would've forgiven Peter. If he was obsessive, I imagine it'd be really difficult for James to forgive Peter. I would think that James would hold a grudge against Peter for a long time and would forigve Peter after a long period or time or maybe never forgiving him at all if obsession was a part of his personality.

Also, I don't imagine James asking Lily out all the time. He might've a few times, but not a lot. Everyone fears rejection, and I think James's behavior after Lily told James that he made her sick shows that he was hurt by Lily's words.

Let's keep the focus on James. Snape's obsession or lack thereof is a topic for another thread.

1. James is Harry’s father but he died before Harry had the chance to get to know him. Is he a good role model? Would he have become a good father? How has he influenced Harry’s present life?

I think James was a wonderful father and is an excellent role model for Harry. He made mistakes in his youth, but he learned from those mistakes. I think he was always a good person overall - in spite of his mistakes - but learning from his mistakes made him a better person. He is an excellent example for Harry because he was not prejudiced and he took a definitive stand against the Dark Arts his entire life. He was very brave and he gave his life in trying to defend his family.

His influence on Harry's life was limited to what Harry learned from other people, but I think Harry learned a lot from James even if it was vicariously. I think it was that influence that gave Harry the strength to do what needed to be done and a clear perception of right and wrong.

2. Why did James chose Sirius over Dumbledore as Secret Keeper? Didn’t he trust Dumbledore with his life?

I think this was a complex issue with various factors involved. Certainly James trusted his friends a great deal and he wouldn't have done anything to betray that trust. And I'm sure that the fact that Dumbledore already had so much on his plate - being Headmaster of Hogwarts, leading the Order, actively fighting against Voldemort - was a factor. I think James appreciated the offer, but he had so much faith in Sirius that he didn't think it was necessary to choose anyone else. Later - after Sirius had come up with the plan for the switch with Pettigrew - I think they both felt that was the smarter route to take. And it really was a brilliant plan. If Pettigrew had been as loyal to them as they were to each other, it would have worked.

However, I think there was another factor involved in that decision. I'm not sure how much impact it had on it though. Before they found out that Voldemort was definitely going to try to kill Harry - and before the Fidelius Charm had been recommended - Bathilda Bagshot told them about Dumbledore's past. Lily mentioned that in the letter to Sirius when she told them about Bathilda coming to Harry's birthday tea. I think learning that Dumbledore had been friends with someone like Grindelwald was a big shock. They didn't know whether or not to believe it, but I think that might have shaken James' faith in Dumbledore to some extent. Obviously, there was still trust there because he didn't demand Dumbledore return his cloak and he took Dumbledore's suggestion about the Fidelius Charm. But I think that probably raised a bit of doubt - just like it did for Harry when he found out about it.

3. James made Sirius Harry’s godfather. Was this a good decision?

Absolutely. Sirius was a good role model - not perfect, but good. He was a good person - in spite of the fact that he was raised by people who shared Voldemort's beliefs and practiced the Dark Arts. Sirius devoted himself to fighting against all the horrible things his family stood for - and that had to be hard for him. He loved Harry with all his heart and not only was he willing to take a stand and lay down his own life to protect Harry - he did so. You couldn't ask for a better godfather, IMO.

4. We got bits and pieces of James’ life. Has he matured over the years and become a better person?

As I said above, I think James was always a good person. He was arrogant and full of himself as a teenager, but there's nothing unusual about that, particularly with him being raised in wealth and indulged by his parents. But he didn't sink to the level of people like Dudley or Draco in that regard. James and Sirius remind me of Fred and George a great deal. They played pranks on people, but they were not cruel or malicious. They were just arrogant and immature and didn't fully think about the consequences. As James got older, he matured and outgrew such childish behavior.

One thing that I was glad to learn in DH was that this did happen gradually over time rather than being influenced by any one event or person. I like James even more knowing that he grew up and realized his mistakes on his own rather than something causing him to make a dramatic change.

5. What was James’ relationship to Lily Evans/Sirius Black/Peter Pettigrew/Remus Lupin/Albus Dumbledore/Minerva McGonagall/Frank and Alice Longbottom?

Lily was obviously the love of his life and his soul mate. I think she was a good influence on James to some extent and she made him want to be a better person. I wouldn't say she changed him or that he changed solely because of her, but I think her influence was a positive factor in his becoming more mature. They were lucky to find each other. We should all be so lucky to find that kind of love. :love:

Sirius was his best friend and - like Ron and Harry - they were surrogate brothers. Like Ron did for Harry, James took Sirius in and made him part of his family. That was good for Sirius - he needed a positive family influence.

Lupin was his best friend as well and I think they loved each other like brothers, but I think James had a closer relationship with Sirius overall. Lupin was more reserved because of his concerns about being a werewolf. I think that is part of the reason they suspected he was the spy.

Pettigrew was a close friend and I think there was some brotherly love there as well. But none of them had much respect for Pettigrew and I don't feel that the three of them were as close to Pettigrew as they were to each other. Pettigrew was a lot like the annoying younger brother in that dynamic. But they did love him and they trusted him a great deal.

Dumbledore and McGonagall were respected elders/mentors. I think James probably had similar feelings about them as Harry did. Although I think Harry grew closer to Dumbledore over time because of his circumstances. But - as I said above - I think that learning about Dumbledore's friendship with Grindelwald may have shaken James' faith in Dumbledore a bit.

It's more difficult to say what his relationship was with Frank and Alice Longbottom. They were classmates and associates within the Order certainly. I think that - at least by the time they were in the Order - they were probably good friends. The Order was a great deal like a family in its own way. But we can't really determine how close that friendship would have been.

6. How much of James' hatred of Snape do you think was jealousy over his friendship with Lily? Do you think he redeemed himself by saving his life in spite of this jealousy?

I don't know if jealousy would be the right word actually. I think concern would be more appropriate. It did not appear that Lily really knew who Snape was - at least not in the beginning. In the memories that Harry saw, there were a lot of things Snape did - dark looks or mutterings - that Lily did not appear to notice. She became aware of those things as time passed, but she made excuses for Snape and/or turned a blind eye to them in hopes that he would outgrow his fascination with the Dark Arts. James knew how much Snape was fascinated with the Dark Arts and I think that he was worried about what would happen to Lily if she continued to associate with someone like Snape. I have to say I agree - it's rather frightening to think about what could have happened to her if she hadn't realized what a horrible person Snape was. She might not have died, but I think she would certainly have led a miserable life if that were the case. So I think worry or concern would be more appropriate than jealousy.

I've always felt that the rivalry between Snape and the Marauders was more intense between Snape and Sirius with James hatred being an extension of that. The hatred between the two of them was far greater and more intense than any bad feelings James had towards Snape. Even picking on Snape in SWM was done because Sirius was bored. But something occurred that caused Sirius to hate Snape to the degree that he felt the werewolf prank was justified. I think the key to that is the fact that Sirius knew that Snape was not only fascinated by the Dark Arts, he knew more curses in his first year than half of the seventh years. I think that is significant because the only way Sirius could know that is if he saw Snape use those curses.

Prior to DH, Jo had indicated that the hatred between Snape and Sirius was important and we were supposed to learn more about that. Obviously, Jo changed her mind about that since it was never even addressed in DH. But I think that's where the rivalry truly started - something Snape did in their first year. I think it's likely that Snape used the Dark Curse against James or Sirius. That's how they knew about his knowledge of curses and that he loved the Dark Arts. They hated each other almost from the time that they met because both James and Sirius hated the Dark Arts. Lily wasn't a factor in that when they were only 11 years old. I'm sure that James' concern for Lily became a factor as they got older and he began to fall in love with her, but it certainly wasn't what started the rivalry between them.

I don't feel that James needed any redemption simply because he was involved in a schoolboy rivalry. Sirius did to some extent because the werewolf prank was his idea, but James didn't hate Snape to the same degree that Sirius did. James chose to do the right thing in saving Snape because it was the right thing to do. I don't doubt that was motivated in part by not wanting Sirius to get into trouble or Lupin to have to deal with the guilt of killing someone - or passing on the affliction of being a werewolf. But - overall - I think James just knew that it was wrong. Harry and Ron showed that same moral value when they saved Malfoy. In spite of the horrible things they had done, they didn't think they deserved to die. I think James felt the same way. Snape was certainly a horrible person and he had already chosen a dark path to follow, but James didn't think he deserved to die. For me, that wasn't redemption - it was confirmation that James was a good, decent person who would choose what was right over what was easy.

Good point about the differences in the way Snape and James felt about Lily. Some people think James was obsessive about Lily, but that never seemed to fit in with his character. James grew to love and stay loyal to Lily till he died, but obsessive? Doesn't sound like James.

According to Dumbledore, James would've forgiven Peter. If he was obsessive, I imagine it'd be really difficult for James to forgive Peter. I would think that James would hold a grudge against Peter for a long time and would forigve Peter after a long period or time or maybe never forgiving him at all if obsession was a part of his personality.

Also, I don't imagine James asking Lily out all the time. He might've a few times, but not a lot. Everyone fears rejection, and I think James's behavior after Lily told James that he made her sick shows that he was hurt by Lily's words.


Yes I agree, the way Lily told James off in SWM likely left him unwilling to face her for a bit, lol. She may hav even apologized and that got things between them well again. But I don't think after that he would casually ask her out again for a while; that seemed a bit of an ego bruiser, :lol:

originally posted by beatifically
Also, I don't imagine James asking Lily out all the time. He might've a few times, but not a lot. Everyone fears rejection, and I think James's behavior after Lily told James that he made her sick shows that he was hurt by Lily's words.

I agree. I don't think the time in SWM was the first time he'd asked, and certainly not the last, but I never got the impression that James was all over Lily. Lily comes off as the kind of person who would hate being asked out with such persistance. Some people find it cute, but I don't think Lily was one of them.

Plus, it doesn't lend time for James to discover that Lily is really the girl for him. A lot of fanfiction make it sound like James loved Lily from day one, but I don't think that was the case. Was there attraction from day one? Possibly, probably even subconciously like Harry and Ginny. But James was probably like Sirius and he dated other girls for awhile before realizing his feelings for Lily.

Plus, it doesn't lend time for James to discover that Lily is really the girl for him. A lot of fanfiction make it sound like James loved Lily from day one, but I don't think that was the case. Was there attraction from day one? Possibly, probably even subconciously like Harry and Ginny. But James was probably like Sirius and he dated other girls for awhile before realizing his feelings for Lily.

Sometimes I wonder whether fanfic has gotten confused with the reality laid out in the books. :grumble:

I think Seventh Year, when James and Lily were Head Boy and Head Girl, gave them an opportunity to work closely together on activities that weren't classroom-related. There would have been moments when James didn't have the other Marauders close at hand and it was just the two of them.

I think Seventh Year, when James and Lily were Head Boy and Head Girl, gave them an opportunity to work closely together on activities that weren't classroom-related. There would have been moments when James didn't have the other Marauders close at hand and it was just the two of them.

That's interesting ~ do you think that James's group activities with the Marauders took up too much time before seventh year? Writing the map for instance must have taken a good deal of time, and then the dedication to learning to be an Animagus, plus the need for secrecy.

Would he and Lily have gotten together sooner if James had been a little more independent from the Marauders?

That's interesting ~ do you think that James's group activities with the Marauders took up too much time before seventh year? Writing the map for instance must have taken a good deal of time, and then the dedication to learning to be an Animagus, plus the need for secrecy.

Would he and Lily have gotten together sooner if James had been a little more independent from the Marauders?

In my opinion James was likely dating other girls. He was popular and the off-hand manner in which he asked Lily to date him in SWM seems to indicate that asking girls out wasn't a problem for him (he wasn't shy). So I don't think James' group activities interfered with him going out on dates (or Sirius' either). I think Lily simply didn't want to date him until later. James likely started getting his act together in 6th, showing responsibility, or DD wouldn't have likely made him head boy for the 7th year. Head boys are over all of the prefect boys, so it was a rather responsible position. Lily may have seen that too and even considered dating in 6th, but it is possible that by then James had stopped asking for a while and got on to dating others.

They were already animagus by 5th and they created the maps after their night time wanderings as they went along I imagine, so that wouldn't take up that much time. As there are so many hours in a day, there is time for your buddies and time for dating too and usually your buddies will chill when they realize you have a date - they know what is up.

^ I agree. I don't think what the Marauders were doing on the side was what stopped Lily and James from dating.

In The Prince's Tale chapter of DH, we see Lily's opinion of James very clearly. I beleive she said "bullying toe rag" So, therefore, I think that she just wasn't into him until he grew up and calmed down a bit. Then she was able to see that he wasn't just a bully. Remember, her best friend was the person probably picked on the most by the Marauders. But I guess that after she and Snape stopped hanging out, and James stopped trying to be a show-off, she was able to focus on some of his better qualities. She also would have been spending more time with him, being Head Girl and he being Head Boy, so she prolly just noticed his perks more.

Sirius and James, both being prolly the two most popular people in Hogwarts at the time, had experience with girls already no doubt.

That's interesting ~ do you think that James's group activities with the Marauders took up too much time before seventh year? Writing the map for instance must have taken a good deal of time, and then the dedication to learning to be an Animagus, plus the need for secrecy.

Would he and Lily have gotten together sooner if James had been a little more independent from the Marauders?

I'm going along with those who've already responded, SIP. I don't think his guy friends held him back with Lily in any way. I think it was those hours they spent doing Head Boy and Head Girl stuff that paved their path to romance, and also not having the dolorous Snape flapping around in the background.

I'm going along with those who've already responded, SIP. I don't think his guy friends held him back with Lily in any way. I think it was those hours they spent doing Head Boy and Head Girl stuff that paved their path to romance, and also not having the dolorous Snape flapping around in the background.
I agree. I see James filling the empty place of Lily's best guy friend in the sixth year. I think they got closer and built a friendship throughout that year and then when seventh year came around and they were both made head boy/girl they had more time to spend with each other. I think the fact that Dumbledore picked James for Head Boy shows that James must have grew up a lot since prefects were picked and I am sure Lily noticed this as well.

...I think the fact that Dumbledore picked James for Head Boy shows that James must have grew up a lot since prefects were picked and I am sure Lily noticed this as well.Well, hard to say - it certainly says that Albus thought so - but then he didn't have any idea about the Full Moons. Do you allthink James still spent his Full Moons with the guys - or did he spend them with Lily?

Do we have any canon that suggests Lily ever was told that Remus was a werewolf?

Well, hard to say - it certainly says that Albus thought so - but then he didn't have any idea about the Full Moons. Do you allthink James still spent his Full Moons with the guys - or did he spend them with Lily?

Do we have any canon that suggests Lily ever was told that Remus was a werewolf?

I think James still went out with his friends on the full moon - they had to sneak out after curfew, so it wouldn't have likely interfered with his Lily time.

I think Lily knew all about them in school, but there is evidence she did when they were married; she called them by nickname; I am certain that after hearing Snape's "theories", the moment she heard Remus' nickname was Moony, they didn't even have to tell her he was a werewolf, but I would imagine they did anyway when they related all that they did as animagi/werewolf. I think Lily would accept Remus as easily as his friends and Harry did as she saw the good in everyone. :)

I think Lily knew all about them in school, but there is evidence she did when they were married; she called them by nickname; I am certain that after hearing Snape's "theories", the moment she heard Remus' nickname was Moony, they didn't even have to tell her he was a werewolf, but I would imagine they did anyway when they related all that they did as animagi/werewolf. I think Lily would accept Remus as easily as his friends and Harry did as she saw the good in everyone. :)

I think so, too. James' friends seemed quite fond of her, too.

Well, hard to say - it certainly says that Albus thought so - but then he didn't have any idea about the Full Moons. Do you allthink James still spent his Full Moons with the guys - or did he spend them with Lily?

Do we have any canon that suggests Lily ever was told that Remus was a werewolf?

No, there isn't any, and Lupin never says that she knew.

I would bet James and Lily never had a date during the Full Moon. :)

Edit: Or it is possible that after James started dating Lily he decided not to run around with Lupin anymore. I can see either scenario.

Because sometimes I wonder - if Dumbledore made others "promise" not to give away Lupin's secret, wouldn't he also make James and Sirius do the same?

No, there isn't any, and Lupin never says that she knew.

I would bet James and Lily never had a date during the Full Moon. :)

Edit: Or it is possible that after James started dating Lily he decided not to run around with Lupin anymore. I can see either scenario.

Because sometimes I wonder - if Dumbledore made others "promise" not to give away Lupin's secret, wouldn't he also make James and Sirius do the same?

Isn't it possible for Lily and James to have a date on the day of the full moon, but James sneaked out after curfew to be with his friends? I never thought James would ditch his friends just to spend time with Lily. He loved Lily, but he loved his friends as well. I imagine him splitting his time between both of them.

If Lily did know about the Marauders being unreigstered animagi, it's left to interpretation as to how Lily found out. Lily could've figured it out and asked Remus but later found out about what roles the others had during full moon. I'm not sure since there isn't much canon to make any conclusions.

James, in my opinion, seemed like a pretty loyal person to those he loved. If Lily did find out, I don't think James would tell Lily about Remus being a werewolf.

Isn't it possible for Lily and James to have a date on the day of the full moon, but James sneaked out after curfew to be with his friends? I never thought James would ditch his friends just to spend time with Lily. He loved Lily, but he loved his friends as well. I imagine him splitting his time between both of them.

If Lily did know about the Marauders being unreigstered animagi, it's left to interpretation as to how Lily found out. Lily could've figured it out and asked Remus but later found out about what roles the others had during full moon. I'm not sure since there isn't much canon to make any conclusions.

James, in my opinion, seemed like a pretty loyal person to those he loved. If Lily did find out, I don't think James would tell Lily about Remus being a werewolf.

I think Lily likely guessed. But James could tell her; I don't think DD would have felt he had to illicit a promise not to tell from James. If James and Lily were tight, then Lily likely became close to Remus too and he either told her or told James it was okay. Remus I doubt would have objected to Lily knowing; imo, he knew she was trustworthy and a non-prejudice person.

I think Lily likely guessed. But James could tell her; I don't think DD would have felt he had to illicit a promise not to tell from James. If James and Lily were tight, then Lily likely became close to Remus too and he either told her or told James it was okay. Remus I doubt would have objected to Lily knowing; imo, he knew she was trustworthy and a non-prejudice person.

Yes, I agree with that. Lily could've guessed and asked Remus. Once she knew, James probably figured it was safe to tell her about him being an unregistered animagus. I just don't think James ever told Lily without Remus's permission. It goes against his personality, IMO.

Isn't it possible for Lily and James to have a date on the day of the full moon, but James sneaked out after curfew to be with his friends? I never thought James would ditch his friends just to spend time with Lily. He loved Lily, but he loved his friends as well. I imagine him splitting his time between both of them.

If Lily did know about the Marauders being unreigstered animagi, it's left to interpretation as to how Lily found out. Lily could've figured it out and asked Remus but later found out about what roles the others had during full moon. I'm not sure since there isn't much canon to make any conclusions.

James, in my opinion, seemed like a pretty loyal person to those he loved. If Lily did find out, I don't think James would tell Lily about Remus being a werewolf.

Yeah, I agree. I always imagined Lily to have figured it out on her own. Then I'd imagine she'd confront James about it, and he'd keep his lips sealed on the matter... then I suppose Remus would tell her himself. I highly doubt James would betray Remus's trust just because it was Lily who asked him. And we know Remus was fond of Lily, and so I assume he'd have trusted her enough with the secret, too. Then James would be able to tell her all about their becoming animagi for Remus. I have a feeling Lily was quite understanding of it all, and probably even impressed - though, this isn't the Lily thread...

Anyways, I don't think James would have ditched Remus for Lily, either. I see their midnight wanderings as their strictly Marauder time. James could spend as much time as he wanted with Lily the rest of the day, let alone month. Remus was one of his best friends, and he was incredibly loyal to him and would stick with him during the painful ordeal of becoming a werewolf. I doubt any disapproving lectures would stop him from being by Remus's side.

I doubt any disapproving lectures would stop him from being by Remus's side.
So you think Lily lectured him about it? :huh: That's an interesting view.

Isn't it possible for Lily and James to have a date on the day of the full moon, but James sneaked out after curfew to be with his friends? I never thought James would ditch his friends just to spend time with Lily. He loved Lily, but he loved his friends as well. I imagine him splitting his time between both of them.
That's what I think as well.

So you think Lily lectured him about it? :huh: That's an interesting view.


I think one of the things James liked about Lily was that she was a fun loving girl. In the happy memories of her, that is how she impressed me. That is why I would bet Remus simply told James to tell her, to ease any tension that might arise between James and Lily. Remus seemed very keen on other people's happiness.

I would doubt Lily lectured James; by the time they got together, he reduced his ego, so she wouldn't have anything to lecture him about.

As for the full moon dates - the Marauders snuck out I imagine after everyone went to bed, avoiding Filch to get out of the castle. By the time the moon reached it's full zenith, Lily would have likely been fast asleep. So I agree, he could do both. ;)

So you think Lily lectured him about it? :huh: That's an interesting view.

No, I don't, because as I said earlier in my post, I think Lily would not disapprove of it at all, and would be rather impressed instead (I think she had an adventurous personality, too). I must have misunderstood your comment about James stopping his midnight adventures with the others once he started dating Lily - I thought you meant she'd have told him off in some way. Sorry. :)

I'm kind of doubting that Lily ever knew they were animagi. Her letter to Sirius in bk7 suggested that James would have been sneaking out if he had the invisibility cloak. Now true, a stag is more noticeable than a door opening on it's own, but I think she would have alluded to his wanting a run or something if she knew he was an animagus.

The reason I asked about the Full Moon is because they are 'romantic'. Going out during the day would not be the same.

I feel pretty sure James would not have told Lily. After all, doing so would mean admitting she didn't get the full story about what was under the Whomping Willow. I figure IF she ever knew then it wasn't until after they had left school - probably not until they were engaged.

originally posted by hwla
I'm kind of doubting that Lily ever knew they were animagi. Her letter to Sirius in bk7 suggested that James would have been sneaking out if he had the invisibility cloak. Now true, a stag is more noticeable than a door opening on it's own, but I think she would have alluded to his wanting a run or something if she knew he was an animagus.

No, I think she knew. James and the others would've disappeared one night a month, and then be super tired the next day. Lily would likely wonder why. Plus, there's really no reason not to tell her about it. If she knew Remus was a werewolf, why not tell her about what they did. I think Lily would've been impressed at the lengths they went to in order to help Remus.

And James could keep a secret, that's for sure, but would he want to keep this from his wife? Did they still do it after Hogwarts? I would think the Marauders let her in on it.

I'm kind of doubting that Lily ever knew they were animagi. Her letter to Sirius in bk7 suggested that James would have been sneaking out if he had the invisibility cloak. Now true, a stag is more noticeable than a door opening on it's own, but I think she would have alluded to his wanting a run or something if she knew he was an animagus.

James must have told her, since she called Sirius Padfoot and Peter Wormtail. How do you explain these nicknames without telling the story? And Lily was a clever witch. She must have noticed something when she dated James in seventh year. I'm also convinced that James would have liked to share this secret with her instead of constantly lying to her. He loved her.

James must have told her, since she called Sirius Padfoot and Peter Wormtail. How do you explain these nicknames without telling the story? And Lily was a clever witch. She must have noticed something when she dated James in seventh year.

Well they openly called each other by the names in SWM,so I'm sure others knew they used the name aswell,so it wasn't necessary they gave people an explanation,also they could have made something up.If I had to guess I'd say maybe Lily didn't know,don't you think she'd encourage them to later register themselves as animagi ?(which I think is law)

I think she knew. She would have asked what the nicknames mean, and then James would have had to tell her. I also think they didn't want to register since they would get in trouble. Besides they were fighting a war from the moment they graduated and then they were hiding from Voldemort with no time to spare.

I think she knew. She would have asked what the nicknames mean, and then James would have had to tell her. I also think they didn't want to register since they would get in trouble. Besides they were fighting a war from the moment they graduated and then they were hiding from Voldemort with no time to spare.

Well he wouldn't have to tell her.I am sure other before must have asked.And I can't see how they'd get into trouble,they cold just pretend they became animagus at that time,and I can't see time being an issue really.

Well he wouldn't have to tell her.I am sure other before must have asked.And I can't see how they'd get into trouble,they cold just pretend they became animagus at that time,and I can't see time being an issue really.They were busy fighting a war.

How long would it take?If it was a priority then they would have.If it is against the law to be unregistered then certainly it would be something they should do(especially as he now had a family).

How long would it take?If it was a priority then they would have.If it is against the law to be unregistered then certainly it would be something they should do(especially as he now had a family).

Not necessarily. Mr Weasley is in the Order and the Ministry openly disapproves of the Order of the Phoenix. He does not tell them about the whereabouts of Sirius Black and he is a wanted criminal. Sometimes one has to change one's priorities. If revealing the secret would have meant punishment for the Marauders, I can't see James and the others doing it. After all, James was no Percy.

Lily didn't know,don't you think she'd encourage them to later register themselves as animagi ?(which I think is law)

I don't think she would, for she wouldn't like to see them punished for hiding this fact for such a long time and illegally becoming one, in the first place. Moreover like CBW has said, they were at War and such a trivial issue wasn't really important. ;)

After all, James was no Percy.

:rotfl:

I'm kind of doubting that Lily ever knew they were animagi. Her letter to Sirius in bk7 suggested that James would have been sneaking out if he had the invisibility cloak. Now true, a stag is more noticeable than a door opening on it's own, but I think she would have alluded to his wanting a run or something if she knew he was an animagus.
Well, as Ifink2much says, she addressed Sirius as 'Padfoot' at the start of the letter, and made a reference to 'Wormy' some way in- I took that as Jo's way of telling us that she knew that Sirius, James and Peter were Animagi and Remus a werewolf- possibly the only one besides the original four who did know.
And frankly, it would be out of character for James not to have told her at some point, most likely while they were still at school and dating. He doesn't seem like the sort who could ever place his friends lower down on his list of priorities, so telling Lily the truth about their Animagus selves might not have been as hard after it was an accomplished fact. But if they had started going out and then James decided to attempt achieving illegal Animagus transformations, he might have wanted to keep quiet for fear of catching an earful from Lily. Which is obviously not the case here, so I'd still go with the theory that she suspected something and later had her suspicions confirmed by James or one of the others.

If revealing the secret would have meant punishment for the Marauders, I can't see James and the others doing it. After all, James was no Percy.

But why would they be punished?They wouldn't have to say they were animagi in school?They could just say that they then had then become animagi.

And frankly, it would be out of character for James not to have told her at some point, most likely while they were still at school and dating.

Hmm..well personally I'd think it was in character for James not to tell Lily.

Hmm..well personally I'd think it was in character for James not to tell Lily.

I don't think so. I think Lily became the fifth Marauder in some ways, not as an animagi, of course, but definitely a part of the fellowship.

I don't think so. I think Lily became the fifth Marauder in some ways, not as an animagi, of course, but definitely a part of the fellowship.

Yeah, that's how I saw it, too. And not only that, but James was just ridiculously trusting, and I'm sure he was completely willing to fill her in - once it was alright with Remus, of course, as I've said before. But considering what we've been told about Remus, I highly doubt he'd refuse to tell Lily. Specially in seventh year, she must have noticed the montly disapearances, or how tired they all were right after the full moon. So knowing how Remus was fond of Lily, I'm sure he wasn't all too against telling her the truth, because she definitely didn't seem like the kind of person who would recoil at the knowledge. And she didn't. :)

So with that, either he or James, or maybe all four of them, could fill her in on their story.

I don't really see what in James's personality would keep him from telling Lily, if it was all good with Remus... I mean, she knew about his invisibility cloak, so she likely knew all about his mischief in the school. And his being an animagus was, in my opinion, much more noble than that.

Not to mention, Lily's patronus was a doe, to match James's stag... I'd say it would all become rather obvious to her if she didn't know already. I dunno, I just don't see any reason why she wouldn't know, and her knowing their nicknames and using them just made me feel she definitely did know. Why else would Jo make Lily use their nicknames if it weren't to let us know she knew about their animagus forms?

Well, hard to say - it certainly says that Albus thought so - but then he didn't have any idea about the Full Moons. Do you allthink James still spent his Full Moons with the guys - or did he spend them with Lily?

Do we have any canon that suggests Lily ever was told that Remus was a werewolf?
Good qustion. I feel like Lily would have figured it out sooner or later. We seen in The Prince's Tale that Snape tells Lily of his suspcions of the Mauraders and Lupin's condition. I personally like to think that Lily (with those thoughts already planted) was smart enough to figure it out. Maybe it is what led her to see James as a more sensitive and caring person. To do that for a friend....:shrug:

Do you think James would have told her if she asked or would he have covered it up? I feel like he would have told her the truth.

Do you think James would have told her if she asked or would he have covered it up? I feel like he would have told her the truth.

I don't believe he would have told her. Maybe once they were married. I don't know there really isn't any canon to know for sure. I think while they were in school James would have kept Lupin's secret. After all it wouldn't exactly be a good thing for James to tell Lily unless Lupin allowed it. I always had the impression the marauders were a secretive group that kept things to themselves.

I really cannot see him telling Lily until they were out of school. For one thing, she was Head Girl and it would have been her duty to report their Full Moon excursions - since they were endangering others (all those 'many' close calls Remus referred to).

They didn't begin dating until 7th year - at most that is 10 possible Full Moons (possibly fewer, depending upon when they began dating). Additionally, a great deal of Lily's 'liking' James began with her seeing James as brave in the Werewolf Incident. I doubt she would have been exactly thrilled to find out she had been 'fooled' over that.

No, he would have had to waited until he was very sure that the relationship would last. Not only because she may have taken being 'fooled' badly, but also because Lily had a temper. A bad break-up could have seen James and his friends in trouble. I think he would have had to wait until he was positive she loved him. I'd say past the end of Hogwarts at least. Probably not until they were engaged.

Ah, I think James would have told her earlier on... once their friendship was solid. James kinda wore his heart on his sleeve with Lily and with his friends. I imagine one of the first things she asked him was about that tunnel under the Whomping Willow, at which point the story would have been told.

I really cannot see him telling Lily until they were out of school. For one thing, she was Head Girl and it would have been her duty to report their Full Moon excursions - since they were endangering others (all those 'many' close calls Remus referred to).

They didn't begin dating until 7th year - at most that is 10 possible Full Moons (possibly fewer, depending upon when they began dating). Additionally, a great deal of Lily's 'liking' James began with her seeing James as brave in the Werewolf Incident. I doubt she would have been exactly thrilled to find out she had been 'fooled' over that.

No, he would have had to waited until he was very sure that the relationship would last. Not only because she may have taken being 'fooled' badly, but also because Lily had a temper. A bad break-up could have seen James and his friends in trouble. I think he would have had to wait until he was positive she loved him. I'd say past the end of Hogwarts at least. Probably not until they were engaged.

Well you have presented a definite possibility. :)

I don't see it that way myself because it doesn't fit the character images I have created of James and Lily in my head. I got the impression that she liked adventure and excitement as much as the next guy - hence her activities when she was young and joining the order when she was older. I think that is what partially attracted James to her because I see his character that way also. So I see them sharing adventurous things once they are together - and I see Remus insisting on including Lily in on everything.

But then I like more straight forward stuff, all the intricacies tend to depend on having to think too much about it all, :lol:.

Because sometimes I wonder - if Dumbledore made others "promise" not to give away Lupin's secret, wouldn't he also make James and Sirius do the same?
I don't think this would apply to Lily. She was by all accounts a very bright young woman, and she clearly knew all the Marauders very well. I don't think James could have hidden it from her, and I don't think he would want to. Being an Animagus isn't the kind of thing you'd normally keep a secret from your wife, and she'd want to know why they became Animagi.

No, I don't, because as I said earlier in my post, I think Lily would not disapprove of it at all, and would be rather impressed instead (I think she had an adventurous personality, too).
That's what I think too. And I'm convinced she would have been sympathetic towards Remus.

I don't think Lily would get mad at James for becoming an unregistered animagus. James' intentions for becoming one weren't wrong at all, imo. He just wanted to help Remus during the transformations. Personally, I think she'd admire the loyalty and dedication James had for his best friend.

So, yes, I pretty much think that James told Lily at some point. When she used the nicknames, it made it sound like Lily was aware of their animagus forms. It'd be weird if she did use it and was unaware of what it meant.

Assuming James didn't tell her . . . I don't see what's wrong with that. He would've been in a tight spot anyway. If Lily didn't know that Remus was a werewolf, how could James tell her the whole story? He would have to betray Remus if he told Lily, and I don't think James would've done that.

I wasn't considering Lily might get angry about the Marauders becoming animagi - more that she would have a problem with them letting Remus out to run loose on Hogwarts grounds. As Head Girl, she would have had a responsibility to ALL of the students - not just James (or Remus for that matter)

Remember, we have canon that Remus was running loose and had MANY (his words) close calls while at Hogwarts. We even have canon from bk1 for a rumor that the Forbidden Forest was occupied by werewolves (Draco's fear during the detention). Pretty much implies that those 'many' close calls happened at Hogwarts (not Hogsmeade) - especially since the only way to let werewolfRemus out of the Shack was thru the tunnel.

I have to question that James would risk Remus' secret by informing the Head Girl (even if she was his girlfriend) that they were letting him run loose on school grounds. And I cannot see Lily (who was against James hexing people whenever he felt like it) being okay with his releasing a werewolf onto school grounds every Full Moon.

Especially if (as I think) she first softened her opinion of James because she heard about his rescuing someone from a monster - only to find out later that he was letting the same 'monster' roam free even after that particualr rescue.

I wasn't considering Lily might get angry about the Marauders becoming animagi - more that she would have a problem with them letting Remus out to run loose on Hogwarts grounds. As Head Girl, she would have had a responsibility to ALL of the students - not just James (or Remus for that matter)

Remember, we have canon that Remus was running loose and had MANY (his words) close calls while at Hogwarts. We even have canon from bk1 for a rumor that the Forbidden Forest was occupied by werewolves (Draco's fear during the detention). Pretty much implies that those 'many' close calls happened at Hogwarts (not Hogsmeade) - especially since the only way to let werewolfRemus out of the Shack was thru the tunnel.

I have to question that James would risk Remus' secret by informing the Head Girl (even if she was his girlfriend) that they were letting him run loose on school grounds. And I cannot see Lily (who was against James hexing people whenever he felt like it) being okay with his releasing a werewolf onto school grounds every Full Moon.

I respect your opinion, but what canon would we have to suggest that there would be any one in the forbidden forest after curfew? We don't have canon that indicates magical creatures or animals were found dead within forests outside of Hogwarts as a result of all of the other werewolves. I wouldn't imagine that there was anything to be harmed in the forbidden forest. However, if there was, it was fair game; that was Remus' natural habitat.

I think that is how James would look at it. Werewolves naturally roamed in forests or in woodland areas like those about Hogwarts. Nonetheless, James participated with the carelessness of youth. Not all youths are careless, and he apparently wasn't in everyway (as becoming an animagi was an exacting science) - however, in that regard he was along with his friends. It is possible that by 7th or even 6th, they stuck mainly to the forests - once older and more mature, I believe they would see that was a better idea. However, we don't have canon so we can only speculate. :)

We mustn't forget that the Forbidden Forest was just that - forbidden to all students. So the Marauders were unlikely to stumble over any innocent 1st years out for a midnight walk! We don't know exactly what the "close calls" were, although it seems likely that at least some of them involved almost being discovered or caught. But the only students that could have been at risk would be students who were out of bounds after bedtime. The forest, inhabited by Acromantula, centaurs, and presumably a lot of other dangerous creatures, would have been risky for anyone, whether or not the Marauders were about! That's why it's Forbidden!

:agree: Their close calls were prolly the risk of being discovered/caught and/or too many pranks. They build up you know (at least with normal school), and it's not good to have a record as thick as James and Sirius are said to have had.

:agree: Their close calls were prolly the risk of being discovered/caught and/or too many pranks. They build up you know (at least with normal school), and it's not good to have a record as thick as James and Sirius are said to have had.

Fred and George had an entire drawer to themselves.

In POA, Remus said that there were many near misses, referring to his almost biting a person. The only place I think that could happen around Hogwarts is in Hosgmeade. During after curfew jaunts, there wouldn't be anyone outside on the grounds or in the forest. Perhaps Hagrid or an occassional professor taking a late night stroll, but it seems that if they saw 3 large animals running about together (namely a Wolf a Dog and a Stag - not your general hunting crew), they would get suspicious. So I would think it was mainly strangers doing the late night thing in Hogsmeade.

It is kind of a strange tale in any case; even strangers in Hogsmeade seeing the 3 large animals and rat traveling together should have remarked upon it, no? But maybe they were just scared and ran without noting, more eager to get away rather than getting bit - and the town was likely sparsely populated at that time of night. James at 15 wasn't interested in anyone getting hurt, based on his saving Snape from the tunnel. So I would imagine that he felt that what they were doing wasn't dangerous in that they could keep Remus in line. From Remus' viewpoint (which we heard), he would likely see it as much more dangerous as he himself was placing those about him in danger.

Fred and George had an entire drawer to themselves.

Right, and I'm sure that the Marauders (James and Sirius especially) were no different. Snape even makes a remark in HBP about how those two were always in trouble (when Harry has detention for using Snape's curse on Malfoy)

We mustn't forget that the Forbidden Forest was just that - forbidden to all students. So the Marauders were unlikely to stumble over any innocent 1st years out for a midnight walk! We don't know exactly what the "close calls" were, although it seems likely that at least some of them involved almost being discovered or caught.

That's not what the canon says exactly. Lupin doesn't use the word "close calls" but "near misses" in response to Hermione when she says "you could have bitten somebody."

"That was still really dangerous! Running around in the dark with a werewolf! What if you'd given the others the slip, and bitten somebody?"

"A thought that still haunts me," said Lupin heavily. "And there were near misses, many of them. We laughed about them afterwards. We were young, thoughtless -- carried away with our own cleverness."

But the only students that could have been at risk would be students who were out of bounds after bedtime. The forest, inhabited by Acromantula, centaurs, and presumably a lot of other dangerous creatures, would have been risky for anyone, whether or not the Marauders were about! That's why it's Forbidden!
The Marauders didn't just prowl around in the forest, though, did they? Lupin said they knew more about the Hogwarts Grounds and Hogsmeade than anyone else. In the Shack he says:

"I'm getting there, Sirius, I'm getting there... well, highly exciting possibilities were open to us now that we could all transform. Soon we were leaving the Shrieking Shack and roaming the school grounds and the village by night. Sirius and James transformed into such large animals, they were able to keep a werewolf in check. I doubt whether any Hogwarts students ever found out more about the Hogwarts grounds and Hogsmeade than we did.... And that's how we came to write the Marauder's Map, and sign it with our nicknames. Sirius is Padfoot. Peter is Wormtail. James was Prongs."

Therefore, it wasn't just students out of bed who were at risk, but anyone in Hogsmeade, too. That would include teachers, Aberforth, Rosmerta - anyone.

It's true that most dangerous creatures stay in the forest, but the canon is that Lupin and the Marauders as animagi did not.

Canon also tells us that Sirius and James transformed into such large beasts that they could - and did - control a werewolf.

All right guys, let's take a deep breath. Lupin makes it pretty clear that they regretted some of the chances they took. Let's go with that and move on.

That's not what the canon says exactly. Lupin doesn't use the word "close calls" but "near misses" in response to Hermione when she says "you could have bitten somebody."




The Marauders didn't just prowl around in the forest, though, did they? Lupin said they knew more about the Hogwarts Grounds and Hogsmeade than anyone else. In the Shack he says:



Therefore, it wasn't just students out of bed who were at risk, but anyone in Hogsmeade, too. That would include teachers, Aberforth, Rosmerta - anyone.

It's true that most dangerous creatures stay in the forest, but the canon is that Lupin and the Marauders as animagi did not.

I agree, the near misses were likely in Hogsmeade.

Focusing on the thread: I don't think James would approve of going there too often, because it was not in his character to place others at risk. Besides the fact that the rather strange sight of those particular animals on the lose in Hogsmeade would likely raise a cry among the wizard community. So I'd imagine James suggested they stay in the forest, but occassionally they'd go about the grounds and on rare occassion into Hogsmeade - possibly following Remus and attempting to get him to turn back.

From a character analysis standpoint, it wouldn't make sense for James to be thoughtful of risking lives in one instance and not in another. So I feel he felt there was much less risk in the Hogsmeade jaunts until it became evident that more late night wizards roamed about in the town than they accounted for - or they were merely chasing Remus to bring him back. In any case, at that point I could see him suggesting that they stick to the forest - DH Forest Again chapter tends to support that. When Remus came back he looked happy to be in a place of 'so many adolescent wanderings'. So they were obviously in the forest quite a bit as animagi as it would be the only way it would be safe for them to be there.

-------------------------

Ah topic change called for as I wrote. Well I do have a question on a different topic. Do you guys think that as an Animagi, James at some point went out alone to meet up with other stags that might be about on the grounds of Hogwarts or if there were none there, perhaps when he went home for summer in a nearby woods? If he did, how do you think he related with them as a human animagi stag to animal stag/doe? Do you think they would note he was not like them? Would they accept him anyway?

Ummm...actually canon by Remus makes it pretty clear that HE regrets some of that stuff - he doesn't say anything about James or Sirius regretting it - and in fact Sirius was right there to say whether it now bothered him (or not) looking back on it as an adult.

Canon suggests that neither James or Sirius ever really understood it. Sirius because he never regretted the 'prank' and James because Remus told Harry that his attitude about Remus' 'furry little problem' was much like James' (when Harry was shocked over a werewolf having killed a boy in HBP). Someone correct my quote - but Harry said (paraphrased) Remus wasn't dangerous.

This is not meant as bashing, but it seems to me that neither of them (James being the subject for this thread) really quite 'got it'. Something that I find very interesting and would love to understand. Especially how underestimating the danger of letting a werewolf run loose relates to underestimating the possibility that Peter might be a spy, but also underestimating the risk while in hiding (James didn't have his wand on him when Voldy dropped by)

What is it that gave James (and Sirius as well) such incredible confidence (arrogance) to believe they knew better than their 'leader'? I tend to think it was all that 'luck' they had at Hogwarts - they never really had to pay the consequences before - not until the SK switch. And that was a HUGE price to pay, because they never learned previously that they might be wrong. Even the werewolf incident (the closest they had ever come before to everything going wrong) did not make them change - they kept letting Remus loose after that (or at least I assume they did since Remus said 'many' and there could not have been more than 9 full moons beforehand). They never really pay the consequences, so they never learn to see ahead to what CAN go wrong. At least that is the way I see it. I think they learned to think of themselves (James and Sirius) as infalliable, while really continuing to underestimate Peter. And that all culminates in the SK switch.

Whether or not you agree with my interpretation of canon, can you please drop a topic when I ask you to?

ETA: I moved the Marauders discussion here: The Marauders: Group Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=112100)

To get this back on James, this is Chiev's list of Extrovert/Introvert Analysis - thought it might be interesting to see how the thoughts on James compare to those on Harry:

Extravert

Expressive
Outgoing
Energized by action, people, things
Speak before they think
Share personal information easily
Prefer to be in the company of others
Distracted easily
Have a lot of friends
Uninhibited
Like working in teams
Approachable, open with strangers
Like meeting new people
Develop ideas through discussion
Party animal, social butterfly

Introverts
Quiet
Reserved
Energized by ideas, feelings, impressions
Think before they speak
Reluctant to share personal information
Prefer to be left alone
Can concentrate well
Small, close group of friends
Inhibited
Would rather work alone
Stand off-ish, keeps to themselves
Prefer a small group of people they already know
Ideas come from thinking alone
Wallflower - opposite of "party animal, social butterfly"