Fenrir Greyback: Character Analysis

Welcome to the post-DH discussion of Fenrir Greyback. Previous discussion without spoilers can be found here: Fenrir Greyback: Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=97813)

For a new character in the HBP, we got to see quite a bit of Greyback in the Deathly Hallows.

1. Do you see things in Greyback, which can be called 'good'? Is there a hope that he will ever regret what he did over the years? Does he deserve compassion?

2. Why is Fenrir so far away from address things as his 'furry little problem'? What do you assume did Greyback choose his way of life while Lupin decided different? Why does he hate wizards and wants revenge? Was it his own choice or a matter of the times he grew up in where wolfsbane potions haven't been invented and the wizarding community perhaps show even less acceptance than nowadays?

3. Fenrir is exploited by Voldemort and the Death Eaters as a potent threat on the one hand, but searches for his own dubiously amusement on the other. He seems to ignore that they fear him. Does he like to be part of the Death Eaters or do they more or less disturb his own aims? Do you think that he is bothered by the fact that he's not totally accepted by Voldemort and the Death eaters and was not allowed a Dark Mark?

I'm not surprised to see that Fenrir turned out to be a real wizard. We got enough hints in the other books IMO that showed it.

Fenrir had more scenes in DH than I expected and it was good to see that they weren't so small and that he survived it. I wonder though what they did with him in the end.

1. Do you see things in Greyback, which can be called 'good'? Is there a hope that he will ever regret what he did over the years? Does he deserve compassion?

No, I don't think he will regret what he has done. If he had, he wouldn't have been at Hogwarts during the final battle.

Fenrir had reason to turn away from Voldemort. He didn't belong to the inner circle of Voldemort. I wonder why not. Did Voldemort think he was untrustworthy? Because Fenrir was a werewolf? We know now that he was a wizard, so the way I see it, he had extra capabilities, he could use a wand and kill people as a werewolf. But still when Harry met him, he was part of the Snatchers, a bounty hunter. I guess Voldemort had a loose contract with him. Called him when needed, but not willing to trust him completely.

I guess that's why Bellatrix spared Fenrir, because she knew he could be useful.

I now wonder if monetary gain was part of Fenrir's hunger for victims. In Deathly Hallows his aim for contaminating more people didn't come up. So he switched goals? He just wanted to make money and kill/eat people. Not make more of his kind. Why? Maybe he thought is fruitless...

Fenrir had reason to turn away from Voldemort. He didn't belong to the inner circle of Voldemort. I wonder why not. Did Voldemort think he was untrustworthy? Because Fenrir was a werewolf? We know now that he was a wizard, so the way I see it, he had extra capabilities, he could use a wand and kill people as a werewolf. But still when Harry met him, he was part of the Snatchers, a bounty hunter. I guess Voldemort had a loose contract with him. Called him when needed, but not willing to trust him completely.
I think that Voldemort didn't let him join the inner circle, because he's a werewolf, a halfblood, and not trustworthy enough for him. But I think the fact that he wanted to bring the trio to Voldemort shows that he wanted a bit more appreciation for his work (and gold of course, but a reward he would have gotten from the Ministry as well).

I guess that's why Bellatrix spared Fenrir, because she knew he could be useful.
You mean in the Manor scene? I had the impression that she only kept him upright, because she needed him to explain and because he's the leader of the troop.

I now wonder if monetary gain was part of Fenrir's hunger for victims. In Deathly Hallows his aim for contaminating more people didn't come up. So he switched goals? He just wanted to make money and kill/eat people. Not make more of his kind. Why? Maybe he thought is fruitless...
Fenrir is a business man and savourer. Making money, having fun with victims and maybe turning them into werewolves. I can't remember that it's said that he wants to kill them only.

I think that Voldemort didn't let him join the inner circle, because he's a werewolf, a halfblood, and not trustworthy enough for him.

Yes I think the same, Voldemort always looked down upon everyone, so it makes sense.

But I think the fact that he wanted to bring the trio to Voldemort shows that he wanted a bit more appreciation for his work (and gold of course, but a reward he would have gotten from the Ministry as well).

I wonder what he wanted... get admitted to the inner circle? Being able to hear the big plans? Seems to be the case.


You mean in the Manor scene? I had the impression that she only kept him upright, because she needed him to explain and because he's the leader of the troop.

Yes, the Manor scene. I read it back and yes she needed Fenrir to explain how he came in possession of the Sword of Gryffindor.

I do think though that the attitude of the Death Eaters changed rather quick. First Fenrir is being treated as something bad and then he is entrusted with moving the prisoners to the cellar.

1. Frankly I couldn't see any redeeming qualities in him

2. I imagine that he has been treated poorly by others for quite a long time, but he was probably a less than savory character before he became a werewolf

3. I think that Fenrir dosen't really care for the Death Eaters one way or another, he probably accepts them because they provide a convenient outlet for his desire to terrorize others.

and I was completely creeped out by his continual insistence that he be allowed to eat Hermione...icky icky icky :eeep:

1. Do you see things in Greyback, which can be called 'good'? Is there a hope that he will ever regret what he did over the years? Does he deserve compassion?
I don't think we know enough about him to know if he's at all redeemable and worthy of compassion on some level. As it is, though, he seems pure evil, in need of serious correctional help.

2. Why do you assume did Greyback choose his way of life while Lupin decided different? Why does he hate wizards and wants revenge? Was it his own choice or a matter of the times he grew up in where wolfsbane potions haven't been invented and the wizarding community perhaps show even less acceptance than nowadays?
It's one thing for someone to be angry at a society which has cast him/her aside and want to seek revenge for wanton suffering. It's another to take it to the level of sadism that Greyback does. There are things in his personality that seem to suggest strongly that, whether or not he was afflicted with lycanthropy, he would still be a disgusting, perverted individual (re: his behavior toward Hermione). If that's a personal choice that he's made or if it's a serious mental problem, I don't think we know enough to say. But either way, I think there's a lot more at work in his personality and violent tendencies than just being a werewolf.

3. Fenrir is exploited by Voldemort and the Death Eaters as a potent threat on the one hand, but searches for his own dubiously amusement on the other. He seems to ignore that they fear him. Does he like to be part of the Death Eaters or do they more or less disturb his own aims? Do you think that he is bothered by the fact that he's not totally accepted by Voldemort and the Death eaters and was not allowed a Dark Mark?
I think he figures that if he's going to go about his business anyway, he may as well do so for some kind of payment (as we see that he is being compensated for his work). I don't think he cares so much that he's not a Death Eater and doesn't have the Dark Mark, but rather it seems that he is frustrated at being seen as inferior to the Death Eaters--after all, his aim is for the werewolves to take over. But something in the arrangement must appeal to him enough to keep him there. Perhaps he sees it as a "necessary evil" in order to carry out his ultimate goal. Plus, having the support of someone is probably better for him and that goal than going it alone.

It's one thing for someone to be angry at a society which has cast him/her aside and want to seek revenge for wanton suffering. It's another to take it to the level of sadism that Greyback does. There are things in his personality that seem to suggest strongly that, whether or not he was afflicted with lycanthropy, he would still be a disgusting, perverted individual (re: his behavior toward Hermione). If that's a personal choice that he's made or if it's a serious mental problem, I don't think we know enough to say. But either way, I think there's a lot more at work in his personality and violent tendencies than just being a werewolf.

I think it's mostly a personal choice. Like Dumbledore said to Fenrir in HBP...


This is most unusual... you have developed a taste for human flesh that cannot be satisfied once a month?'

'That's right,' said Greyback.

He might have been affected by terrible experiences in his youth that have made him crazy, but he also choose to join Voldemort amd torture and kill.

Before DH, a lot of people seemed to be of the opinion that Fenrir felt that his relationship with Voldemort was of equal partnership (even if Voldemort might have thought otherwise), but Fenrir seems to be embarrased of his lack of a deark mark. This simple thing really changes my view of his character, because it seems now that Fenrir actually wanted to be a servant of Voldemort, but that Voldemort didn't allow it (probably Voldemort was prejudiced against werewolves just like he was against other species and part humans).

Before DH, a lot of people seemed to be of the opinion that Fenrir felt that his relationship with Voldemort was of equal partnership (even if Voldemort might have thought otherwise), but Fenrir seems to be embarrased of his lack of a deark mark. This simple thing really changes my view of his character, because it seems now that Fenrir actually wanted to be a servant of Voldemort, but that Voldemort didn't allow it (probably Voldemort was prejudiced against werewolves just like he was against other species and part humans).

Good observations - Fenrir had a bit of an inferiority complex about his status, evidently.
Though, Voldemort was "right" in a way to not trust Fenrir with too much - look at his conduct in the Battle of Hogwarts. He was going to "eat" some of the fallen, instead of fighting. That wasn't very helpful to the DE's!

Before DH, a lot of people seemed to be of the opinion that Fenrir felt that his relationship with Voldemort was of equal partnership (even if Voldemort might have thought otherwise), but Fenrir seems to be embarrased of his lack of a deark mark. This simple thing really changes my view of his character, because it seems now that Fenrir actually wanted to be a servant of Voldemort, but that Voldemort didn't allow it (probably Voldemort was prejudiced against werewolves just like he was against other species and part humans).

That quite surprised me, in HBP Fenrir seemed quite independent and happy with his status, spending time with his fellow werewolves. Although the apparent lack of appreciation by the Death Eaters was clear, he seemed at least on equal footing.

I guess like you said that Voldemort was prejudiced and probably didn't trust werewolves at all. He thought them useful but second class just like muggleborns it seems.

Good observations - Fenrir had a bit of an inferiority complex about his status, evidently.
Though, Voldemort was "right" in a way to not trust Fenrir with too much - look at his conduct in the Battle of Hogwarts. He was going to "eat" some of the fallen, instead of fighting. That wasn't very helpful to the DE's!

Fenrir was foremost a werewolf, so it was logical that he would try to get a bite. I don't think Voldemort minded so much, especially since Fenrir's behavior created just as much fear as it caused wounds. Fear is a powerful weapon in fighting the enemy too.

I agree with Hes. I don't think Voldemort minded his way to fight as long as he bites and kills the right people.

Well I wonder where the said werewolves and companions were at the battle.

Well I wonder where the said werewolves and companions were at the battle.

I asked myself that question too, they would have been useful in the battle at Hogwarts.

However Voldemort didn't seem to want a masacre. He was at Hogwarts for his final showdown with Harry. He gave an ultimatum to Harry which shows that he didn't want to make unnessary victims.

Therefore I think, although Fenrir might have offered werewolf fighters, he refused to let the werewolves join the battle. It would have endangered everyone, even death eaters might have been in danger of being bitten by overexcited werewolves. Fenrir was obviously a bit out of control, more werewolves would have brought chaos that Voldemort didn't seem to want.

Therefore I think, although Fenrir might have offered werewolf fighters, he refused to let the werewolves join the battle. It would have endangered everyone, even death eaters might have been in danger of being bitten by overexcited werewolves. Fenrir was obviously a bit out of control, more werewolves would have brought chaos that Voldemort didn't seem to want. Werewolves are good for specific missions, but in battle, Voldemort would have little control over them. And Voldemort wanted to be able to call the battle on and off as he saw fit.

Well...there may have been werewolves among the fighters. It wasn't a full moon, since Lupin wasn't transformed. So, if there were werewolves about...they were in "human" form.

That being said, one would think that Fenrir would have been marshaling them, even if they were in human form. We didn't see any evidence of him ordering anyone else around at the Battle...so they may not have come. But unfortunately this looks like a place where we have no evidence one way or the other, because of the state of the moon.

I can't remember if next to the Death Eaters and the two giants there were others that fought on Voldemort's side. If that's not the case I am pretty sure that there weren't any "werewolves" (untransformed) around. Like I said before Voldemort would only work with people he more or less trusts. Fenrir on his own was already a liability, a dozen or so more of his type... too much of a risk.

I can't remember if next to the Death Eaters and the two giants there were others that fought on Voldemort's side. If that's not the case I am pretty sure that there weren't any "werewolves" (untransformed) around. Like I said before Voldemort would only work with people he more or less trusts. Fenrir on his own was already a liability, a dozen or so more of his type... too much of a risk. Especially as Fenrir had them all brainwashed to hate all wizards. It's possible that they would follow Fenrir's orders over Voldemort's.

Especially as Fenrir had them all brainwashed to hate all wizards. It's possible that they would follow Fenrir's orders over Voldemort's.

They might have followed Fenrir's orders, but I doubt that they had that great a death wish to ignore Voldemort.

They must be aware of what Voldemort was capable of, so I think that they would prefer to stay away. We don't know if they are that eager on human flesh when in human form as Fenrir, if they even still have their wands. So maybe they preferred to stay secluded and survive then risking death and potential capture.

1. Do you see things in Greyback, which can be called 'good'? Is there a hope that he will ever regret what he did over the years? Does he deserve compassion?
Nothing. He liked being the way he was. Even when not in warewolf form he craved blood and destruction

2. Why is Fenrir so far away from address things as his 'furry little problem'? What do you assume did Greyback choose his way of life while Lupin decided different? Why does he hate wizards and wants revenge? Was it his own choice or a matter of the times he grew up in where wolfsbane potions haven't been invented and the wizarding community perhaps show even less acceptance than nowadays?
Even without being a warewolf he would have been evil. Lupin was tormented by what had happened to him where as Greyback let it wash over him

3. Fenrir is exploited by Voldemort and the Death Eaters as a potent threat on the one hand, but searches for his own dubiously amusement on the other. He seems to ignore that they fear him. Does he like to be part of the Death Eaters or do they more or less disturb his own aims? Do you think that he is bothered by the fact that he's not totally accepted by Voldemort and the Death eaters and was not allowed a Dark Mark?
He was a lose cannon so he was never totally brought into the fold. They both used eac other. The Death Eaters used him as a threat and he used the Death Eaters because they let him run wild

They might have followed Fenrir's orders, but I doubt that they had that great a death wish to ignore Voldemort. They must be aware of what Voldemort was capable of, so I think that they would prefer to stay away. We don't know if they are that eager on human flesh when in human form as Fenrir, if they even still have their wands. So maybe they preferred to stay secluded and survive then risking death and potential capture. Just speculating here,but maybe Fenrir himself didn't want them around for that reason. Just in case they started listening to Voldemort over him.

Just speculating here,but maybe Fenrir himself didn't want them around for that reason. Just in case they started listening to Voldemort over him.

Good suggestion, I can see Fenrir arguing that way, especially since it seemed in HBP that he liked playing the leader over a pack of werewolves. I think that he might have kept the idea in the back of his mind that if Voldemort was defeated he could go back to them and play the leader again.

Good suggestion, I can see Fenrir arguing that way, especially since it seemed in HBP that he liked playing the leader over a pack of werewolves. I think that he might have kept the idea in the back of his mind that if Voldemort was defeated he could go back to them and play the leader again.

Yeah...Fenrir might not have liked it if the other werewolves saw him as a true follower and a second-class DE. So not having them around is helpful for his status as a leader of the werewolf community.

1. Do you see things in Greyback, which can be called 'good'? Is there a hope that he will ever regret what he did over the years? Does he deserve compassion?

Well I think Greyback was a product of society. He had a wand so he knew magic. Did he somehow attend school perhaps and get bitten when he was older? If so, he was likely feeling like an outcast and shunned by society after knowing it was 'not always like that'. If not, he was still shunned and outcast. And for something he had no control over.

He went from outcast to the thought "why should we be treated like dirt? Let's take over!". So his goal was to make as many werewolves of wizards as possible. He became a leader among werewolves - not hard to do when they were all being shunned just like he was and many of them had not gone to school or gotten to enjoy normal wizard life.

Greyback continued to have dealings with the wizard world. John, Remus' father got him angry over something and he bit little Remus in revenge. I am guessing this happened with other kids too. But Greyback was also biting for no other reason than to increase the werewolf population in some cases.

Werewolfs rarely killed, it would be contrary to their goal. However, now and again, people would die from their encounters with werewolves. So werewolves with their goal to increase numbers and a killing now and again over the years got an even worse reputation.

Laws were put in place against them and any remaining werewolves trying to make their way in society likely joined the underground forces at that time with few exceptions. Society had censored them all due to Greybacks efforts.

Greyback's purpose was right at the root: equality for werewolves. However, his method was madness. I don't know if a different method would have worked - talks and such with the ministry and a peaceful fight for rights, but that is likely what he should have tried. It is possible he did, but perhaps he should have tried longer and harder.

Overtime Voldemort comes along with promises of equality if he is ruler and many hop on board - behind Greyback. Voldemort's methods are even worse than Greybacks. Greyback is the only one who seems to take to attempted "tuining wizards into werewolves" even when he is not in wolf form, but it speaks to how dramatic he became with his goal.

Finally, Greyback starts doing other little jobs for Voldy as well and pretty much spun out of control. I would imagine some of his troops fell by the wayside at that point. But they would not likely side with the good side because they didn't like them either. So they probably stayed out of it. I don't know how many followed Greyback by the end as we did not see any werewolves at the Battle of Hogwarts, only Greyback - it is possible he lost favor with them when he got in too deep with voldemort.

Yes there was "good" in Greyback, but it was submerged in the end by choices he made to go too far and the methods he chose to get there.



2. Why is Fenrir so far away from address things as his 'furry little problem'? What do you assume did Greyback choose his way of life while Lupin decided different? Why does he hate wizards and wants revenge? Was it his own choice or a matter of the times he grew up in where wolfsbane potions haven't been invented and the wizarding community perhaps show even less acceptance than nowadays?

I answered most of this above. Things got worse, society made wolfsbane expensive and hard to get AND made it near impossible for werewolves to work, so they were in a rock in a hard place.

I do indeed call Greyback's problem his "furry little problem" - what he chose to do about it was his "big mistake". However, I do believe he had extremely good reasons for what he did - he just went about addressing those reasons the wrong way.



3. Fenrir is exploited by Voldemort and the Death Eaters as a potent threat on the one hand, but searches for his own dubiously amusement on the other. He seems to ignore that they fear him. Does he like to be part of the Death Eaters or do they more or less disturb his own aims? Do you think that he is bothered by the fact that he's not totally accepted by Voldemort and the Death eaters and was not allowed a Dark Mark?


I think by the end, he realized Voldemort was a bit of a farce. However, apparently Voldemort fed him wizards to keep him happy (like they were going to give him Hermione). So he likely felt that at least he'd pick up a few more wizards under voldemort and later, after the war, go back on his own and grab even more.

I don't think he either liked, trusted or wanted to be under Voldemort's rule by the end.

Well I think Greyback was a product of society. He had a wand so he knew magic. Did he somehow attend school perhaps and get bitten when he was older? If so, he was likely feeling like an outcast and shunned by society after knowing it was 'not always like that'. If not, he was still shunned and outcast. And for something he had no control over.

I think he might have been bitten afterwards, because in his days werewolves weren't allowed to go to school. Lupin was the first one.

It's a bit of a mystery to me how he would have gotten a wand and be allowed to use it if he was a werewolf from his his childhood. So he must have attended school otherwise he wouldn't have been permitted to carry a wand. At least I thought that only schooled wizards are allowed to carry a wand. Might be wrong there though. I think it's possible too that he might have stolen one, from one of his victims.


Greyback's purpose was right at the root: equality for werewolves. However, his method was madness. I don't know if a different method would have worked - talks and such with the ministry and a peaceful fight for rights, but that is likely what he should have tried. It is possible he did, but perhaps he should have tried longer and harder.

I don't think that negotiations would have worked out with the Ministry of Magic under Fudge and Scrimgeour, Umbridge and her ideas had too much influence to ever give werewolves or any other magical creature a proper chance. Who knows how many years she was working there and poisoning the Ministry to have a contempt to "half breeds". So he probably would have had to wait for someone like Kingsley.

Finally, Greyback starts doing other little jobs for Voldy as well and pretty much spun out of control. I would imagine some of his troops fell by the wayside at that point. But they would not likely side with the good side because they didn't like them either. So they probably stayed out of it. I don't know how many followed Greyback by the end as we did not see any werewolves at the Battle of Hogwarts, only Greyback - it is possible he lost favor with them when he got in too deep with voldemort.

Very possible that they turned their backs on Fenrir and might have gone to saver grounds. I don't think that the other werewolves wanted to have anything to do with the wizards or the battle involving Voldemort. Voldemort wasn't that good for them in general is my idea, only when he needed them.

I think he might have been bitten afterwards, because in his days werewolves weren't allowed to go to school. Lupin was the first one.

Well I was considering schools, other than Hogwarts. There may have been some other school somewhere that also allowed werewolves to attend. We don't have canon for it, but it is possible.



It's a bit of a mystery to me how he would have gotten a wand and be allowed to use it if he was a werewolf from his his childhood. So he must have attended school otherwise he wouldn't have been permitted to carry a wand. At least I thought that only schooled wizards are allowed to carry a wand. Might be wrong there though. I think it's possible too that he might have stolen one, from one of his victims.

Yes - he wasn't great with a wand, so it was altogether possible that he had snagged a wand from a victim and taught himself how to use it (or had help from a wizard). However, it is also possible that he was bitten mid-term, like during his 4th year as a child and was removed from school at that point having learned some wand skills. Also he may have been bitten after finishing school. So there are many ways he might have learned to use a wand.


I don't think that negotiations would have worked out with the Ministry of Magic under Fudge and Scrimgeour, Umbridge and her ideas had too much influence to ever give werewolves or any other magical creature a proper chance. Who knows how many years she was working there and poisoning the Ministry to have a contempt to "half breeds". So he probably would have had to wait for someone like Kingsley.

I agree. Following that line of reasoning, it makes sense that Greyback would pursue other alternatives. When negotiation is impossible, you generally do get a rebellion on your hands. The ministry should have expected as much because werewolves are wizards except all but 1 day a month and should not be treated as if they are in their wolf state permanently (which was the case- most lived underground). Greyback did what most rebel leaders do; form a plan to get rights. I think he went overboard at the end - but his initial plans appeared to be a grab at equality.

Of course that gets into issues of whether or not it was all right for werewolves to bite wizards and create more of their kind - not really a debate for this thread. But I think in Greyback's eyes at least, it was a valid alternative - build up the population and demand equality. They certainly would have a better chance if their numbers were greater.

Very possible that they turned their backs on Fenrir and might have gone to saver grounds. I don't think that the other werewolves wanted to have anything to do with the wizards or the battle involving Voldemort. Voldemort wasn't that good for them in general is my idea, only when he needed them.

I agree. There were no werewolves at the Battle other than Greyback and Remus, on opposite sides of course. I think the others lost interest in backing Greyback and equally hated wizards on both sides for the way they had been treated by society. They likely just stayed out of it and hoped all of the wizards would eliminate one another.

The lovely thing is that Kingsley and Hermione both became ministry officials and as indicated in JKR's epilogue, the world had become a better place for Teddy. That means a world where he was not shunned for being the son of a werewolf. I personally took that to mean that werewolf rights had indeed been addressed during the 19 years following the war and society's views had changed on the subject. Since it is the wizard world, I imagine they don't take as long as the muggle world to come to accept new outlooks and such.

Well I was considering schools, other than Hogwarts. There may have been some other school somewhere that also allowed werewolves to attend. We don't have canon for it, but it is possible.

Maybe Durmstrang would have accepted werewolves under certain conditions when Fenrir was young, can't see parents be happy about it, not even at that school.

Yes - he wasn't great with a wand, so it was altogether possible that he had snagged a wand from a victim and taught himself how to use it (or had help from a wizard). However, it is also possible that he was bitten mid-term, like during his 4th year as a child and was removed from school at that point having learned some wand skills. Also he may have been bitten after finishing school. So there are many ways he might have learned to use a wand.

True, many possibilities. I wonder, if he was removed from school, would his wand have been broken? Since the Ministry might not have trusted a known werewolf with a wand. His case is different from Lupin, it could have been kept secret but something tells me that Fenrir might have been publicly branded.


I agree. There were no werewolves at the Battle other than Greyback and Remus, on opposite sides of course. I think the others lost interest in backing Greyback and equally hated wizards on both sides for the way they had been treated by society. They likely just stayed out of it and hoped all of the wizards would eliminate one another.

One of the reasons why they might have turned on Fenrir is his money making business as a Snatcher. Which made him work together with a lot of different wizards. The other werewolves might have accepted his occasional involvement with Voldemort, but the headhunting went a lot further.

The lovely thing is that Kingsley and Hermione both became ministry officials and as indicated in JKR's epilogue, the world had become a better place for Teddy. That means a world where he was not shunned for being the son of a werewolf. I personally took that to mean that werewolf rights had indeed been addressed during the 19 years following the war and society's views had changed on the subject. Since it is the wizard world, I imagine they don't take as long as the muggle world to come to accept new outlooks and such.

I think that they are considered equals after 19 years, there might still be prejudice but in rights they should be on the same level as normal wizards.

Maybe Durmstrang would have accepted werewolves under certain conditions when Fenrir was young, can't see parents be happy about it, not even at that school.


Exactly the school I had in mind. Like at Hogwarts, the other students and their parents might not even have known about it.


One of the reasons why they might have turned on Fenrir is his money making business as a Snatcher. Which made him work together with a lot of different wizards. The other werewolves might have accepted his occasional involvement with Voldemort, but the headhunting went a lot further.

Awesome theory. I think you make a great case here. I too think in the main, werewolves merely wanted equality. They perhaps agreed that populating their numbers would help - but we don't even hear about an upsurge of biting. So although they apparently listened to and appeared to follow Greyback, we don't see much evidence of actual participation in his method of seeking equality. And I totally agree that they would become unenchanted with their leader's propensity to work with wizards under Voldemort who treated Greyback like a second class citizen (at least his DE's did). So they were probably weary of any involvement. Great theory, I like it!

I think that they are considered equals after 19 years, there might still be prejudice but in rights they should be on the same level as normal wizards.

Me too - and I think prejudice would rapidly decrease as they came to know the werewolves and found that they were just like themselves except for 1 time a month. If the werewolves took responsibility during transformation (which they likely would because of the equal rights being given), then society would lose the ideology of them being dangerous and meriting distinct treatment. So while prejudice would linger a while, eventually it would fade. I get the feeling things like that occur quickly in the wizard world. We saw general ideologies swing on other topics in the course of the books fairly rapidly.

1. Do you see things in Greyback, which can be called 'good'? Is there a hope that he will ever regret what he did over the years? Does he deserve compassion?

I literally don't think there is any good left in him. We haven't seen him show remorse, and I don't think he could. I think one thing he would regret would be getting involved with Voldemort and the Death Eaters as they don't treat him with the respect he think he deserves. He's like a dog to them.

2. Why is Fenrir so far away from address things as his 'furry little problem'? What do you assume did Greyback choose his way of life while Lupin decided different? Why does he hate wizards and wants revenge? Was it his own choice or a matter of the times he grew up in where wolfsbane potions haven't been invented and the wizarding community perhaps show even less acceptance than nowadays?

It is no longer a "furry little problem" as he intentionally goes out trying to bite children and therefore ruining lives. He is foul. I think he chose he way of life because he knew no better. He was probably bitter at the wizarding world for shunning him from society and not letting him have an ordinary life, because he was a werewolf. I think that's the main reason for him turning.

In my own imagination I have my own back story for each character. My back story or Fenrir is that he came from a wealthy family, had a good job and was quite respectable. Then he got bitten. His family didn't want to know. They cast him away and disowned him and all his hopes and dreams were dashed from him because he had become a werewolf. He later becomes bitter and envious of those with normal lives, so chooses this way of life.

Referring to the Wolfsbane potion, I think he would have seen it that even if he took this potion he would still not be able to lead a normal life. Nothing would be the same. I just think he's a very bitter man.

I think Lupin chose differently simply because he is not like that. Every person reactes to things differently and Lupin reacted in a way that, at first, he simpathised with his attacker. Some people are just like that.

3. Fenrir is exploited by Voldemort and the Death Eaters as a potent threat on the one hand, but searches for his own dubiously amusement on the other. He seems to ignore that they fear him. Does he like to be part of the Death Eaters or do they more or less disturb his own aims? Do you think that he is bothered by the fact that he's not totally accepted by Voldemort and the Death eaters and was not allowed a Dark Mark?

I think at first he agreed to be with the Death Eaters for his own gain. He would most definitely have a better chance of biting more people, and of course children in HBP. However, in DH he is degraded by Death Eaters such as Bellatrix and the Malfoys. He looses control whilst under Voldemort's thumb. Bellatrix ridicules him and he doesn't like it, obviously.

I think the fact that he doesn't have a Dark Mark does bother him. It means that once again he hasn't been accepted in a community. He wasn't accepted in the wizarding world in general, and now Voldemort hasn't accepted him - he is just using Fenrir.

Me too - and I think prejudice would rapidly decrease as they came to know the werewolves and found that they were just like themselves except for 1 time a month. If the werewolves took responsibility during transformation (which they likely would because of the equal rights being given), then society would lose the ideology of them being dangerous and meriting distinct treatment. So while prejudice would linger a while, eventually it would fade. I get the feeling things like that occur quickly in the wizard world. We saw general ideologies swing on other topics in the course of the books fairly rapidly.

They could proof in quite a simple way to the public how easy it is for werewolves to control their behavior. Just by showing everyone how well the wolfsbane potion works. That would built trust.

Some of the more extreme cases that come close to Fenrir's character and maybe even Fenrir himself if he survived, would probably refuse the potion. Others wouldn't if they knew how benefical it would be.

The only good thing I could see in Greyback was that he cleans his nails!

They could proof in quite a simple way to the public how easy it is for werewolves to control their behavior. Just by showing everyone how well the wolfsbane potion works. That would built trust.

Some of the more extreme cases that come close to Fenrir's character and maybe even Fenrir himself if he survived, would probably refuse the potion. Others wouldn't if they knew how benefical it would be.

I am sure that is what happened :) They likely improved the wolfsbane potion (so it didn't hurt so much to transform) and then made it cheaper. With easy access to the potion, many more werewolves would take it if they wished to venture back into society. Most, if not all, werewolves had lived in society before they were bitten (either as children or adults), so they knew what it had to offer. Greyback was killed in the final battle I thought, but I agree, he would not likely have agreed to take the potion - unless he rehabilitated after the war.

fenrir will look great on the silver screen, chances are he ll be completely CGI, but still, he will look v. cool. unless, was fenrir introduced in the OotP. in which case he has already appeared in the movie and im just blind, or dumb. lol

Please let us analyse a bit more of Fenrir's character in here, thanks!

Greyback was killed in the final battle I thought, but I agree, he would not likely have agreed to take the potion - unless he rehabilitated after the war.

The matter if Fenrir was killed remains unresolved in my view, we never see a dead Fenrir, the last sign of life was when Ron and Neville brought him down (which can have several meanings).

I think that with cases such as Fenrir, who always took pleasure in acting the werewolf, rehabitation wouldn't have worked. He was too far gone, everything he did, screamed complete delight in his werewolf behavior, so a character reform... I can't see it happening.

I personally think that even if Fenrir died he would live on in legends. Almost like the Bogeyman.

1. Do you see things in Greyback, which can be called 'good'? Is there a hope that he will ever regret what he did over the years? Does he deserve compassion?
Sadly no, I don't see anything that remotely resembles 'good' in Greyback. I don't even see a chance of him regretting what he did - he just seems too far gone to me and too immersed in his ideology to want to take it back later on. He might not deserve compassion, but I think he deserves pity - at what he did to himself (ie becoming a wolf even without the full moon).

2. Why is Fenrir so far away from address things as his 'furry little problem'? What do you assume did Greyback choose his way of life while Lupin decided different? Why does he hate wizards and wants revenge? Was it his own choice or a matter of the times he grew up in where wolfsbane potions haven't been invented and the wizarding community perhaps show even less acceptance than nowadays?
My theory as to why he and Lupin are so different in their attitudes toward lycanthropy is that each had different natures and different nurtures. What I mean by this is that each could have been brought up differently and treated differently by their parents. We are told that Remus had loving parents who did everything they could for their son when he was bitten. But it's quite possible that Fenrir's parents could have shunned him and kicked him out of the house when he was bitten, leaving him to fend for himself. Additionally, Fenrir and Lupin likely have different inborn character traits that influence them to think and act in a certain way. Fenrir might have been more prone to bitterness and hatred than Remus, who seems to me to be a naturally very kind and caring person.

3. Fenrir is exploited by Voldemort and the Death Eaters as a potent threat on the one hand, but searches for his own dubiously amusement on the other. He seems to ignore that they fear him. Does he like to be part of the Death Eaters or do they more or less disturb his own aims? Do you think that he is bothered by the fact that he's not totally accepted by Voldemort and the Death eaters and was not allowed a Dark Mark?
Fenrir must not have disliked being a part of the Death Eaters' activities or he likely wouldn't have agreed to be involved in it. Fenrir seems like the kind of person who will do something only if there's something in it for him. Being part of the Death Eaters' activities would provide him with some fresh meat (ie new people to bite, as in the case of Bill). The Death Eaters provided him with an outlet for his violence and his desire for human flesh. I actually think Fenrir prefered not to have the Dark Mark, because I think that wouldn't make him free to be his own master as I believe he would have wanted to be.

Greyback was killed in the final battle I thought, but I agree, he would not likely have agreed to take the potion - unless he rehabilitated after the war.
Furthermore I don't think that the potion had much of an effect on him. The potion only gives him a clear mind. But even as human has he werewolfish manners and needs.

I agree, I think he just loved being the vicious werewolf too much. I always thought that it was his sort of revenge. He was made into a werewolf, now he's going to bite and infect, and maybe kill, as many as he can.

Furthermore I don't think that the potion had much of an effect on him. The potion only gives him a clear mind. But even as human has he werewolfish manners and needs.

I don't think Fenrir would ever use it, only because he was very angry at society for not accepting werewolves, shunning them, outcasting them and classifying them as dark creatures when they were only in wolf state 12 days a year out of 365 - - I can see his point :)

However, his means for changing things was overboard; although I think his heart was in the right place with respect to the werewolves.

However, his means for changing things was overboard; although I think his heart was in the right place with respect to the werewolves.If he had a good heart, I don't think he'd have positioned himself to bite Lupin just for vengeance against Lupin's father. My impression was that he was just bloodthirsty and probably would have been that way, even if he had never been made a werewolf - he just happened to be "lucky" with circumstances, werewolf oppression, that gave him a "cover" and rationale for his bloodthirst. I see his situation as similar to that of a murderer who ends up in a war, giving him an excuse for his murders. (I think that the character of Goethe (Ralph Fiennes) from Schindler's List is a good example of this - he was a psychopath and would have been one, even without the war.)

However, his means for changing things was overboard; although I think his heart was in the right place with respect to the werewolves.

I don't think Fenrir really kept in mind what was good for the werewolves, he rather kept in mind what was good for himself. If he ever thought about it, he should have know that what he was doing, would never result in equal rights for werewolves but would only lead to prosecution. He had given up on equal rights, but I am pretty sure other werewolves would have preferred to have lived in harmony with society instead of being more or less exiled. Fenrir was a bad influence on werewolves all over England, you could say he poisoned them with the wrong ideas.

I think that he's mission to help creating a "better" world for werewolves wasn't only for his own benefit. I think that he really gathered werewolfs around him to create a perfect world. If not, why bothering with that. It would be easier to fullfill his disturbing wishes alone. But how he is doing it is the problem. He wants to create more and more werewolves to overpower the wizards and that's not going to help them against werewolf prejudices. If he was really mad at the Wizards of being treated badly as werewolf, then is that the wrong solution. It will cause more and more hatred towards werewolves.

I don't think Fenrir really kept in mind what was good for the werewolves, he rather kept in mind what was good for himself. If he ever thought about it, he should have know that what he was doing, would never result in equal rights for werewolves but would only lead to prosecution. He had given up on equal rights, but I am pretty sure other werewolves would have preferred to have lived in harmony with society instead of being more or less exiled. Fenrir was a bad influence on werewolves all over England, you could say he poisoned them with the wrong ideas.

I respect your opinion, but I would have to go with Tensi on this one. I don't see why Fenir would bother convincing werewolves by marshalling them with talk of forced equality and biting wizards to build up the werewolf ranks if his only desire was to kill wizards. If he wanted to kill wizards, it would seem that he would simply do so - he was willing to do it for Voldy if asked it seems, however, usually the DEs "gave victims to Greyback" as they were going to do with Hermione in the Malfoy Manor Chapter of DH. He wanted to increase the werewolf population to the point where they would be a force to be reckoned with and the wizards would have to recongize their equal stance in the wizard world.

Voldemort promised Greyback that equality once he was in power, so Greyback took him up on it. I don't know if he totally believed him, but Voldy apparently paid him off with 'victims' to try and convince him that was the case.

Greyback's whole plan was wrong and I agree it would have led to their eventual persecution at the hands of Voldemort, but Greyback likely had in the back of his mind that he would gather an army that was even too large for Voldy to combat in the end - in case he was double crossed (Voldy was a wizard after all).

I don't see what benefit Greyback was getting in the interim from Voldy other than recruits. You indicated that he was in it for himself, but I am not certain in what way you are indicating he was being compensated.

I believe that in many ways Greyback was a very confused individual. I always saw him as a rouge agent, one of the most powerful wizards in the series but without any form of loyalty. He was a loose cannon. Maybe he kidded himself with delusions of Werewolf dominance but when push came to shove he worked as a Snatcher, as a glorified hatchet man. By no means was he totally evil but I do not feel that he ever lived up to his supposed ideals. And a contributing factor in this were the clear mental problems he suffered from. How can we expect consistency of belief from a cannibal and a child killer? There is no rationalising Greyback because he is beyond such concepts as reason or logic.

I more look at Fenrir as a wizard who at some point in his life was bitten and shunned/outcasted like all of the rest. He obviously had leadership skills and was not willing to sit back and take what society dolled out to him. Remus was a special case and I am not sure how many other werewolves were allowed to go to school and become proficient at magic as he was. In England, he was the only one we knew of in that situation. It is possible DD wanted to help the werewolves and all similarly afflicted wizards (vampires, giants, centaurs, etc) and purposely called on Lupin, Hagrid and Firenze to lead the charge. However, Fenrir was working on his own in that regard and in his own less than good way. His aim, I believe was the same, but he simply didn't have the patience or wisdom to see that his method wouldn't work. It was a poor plan because it meant attacking wizards to build up the ranks of werewolves. But I have been giving this some thought and am hard pressed to see another way he might have gone about it. It isn't like the wizard world was ready to listen or willing to help or accomodate them. So I can see why he would become nefarious in his ways. I don't condone it, but I think he felt backed into a corner. Too bad DD didn't catch Fenrir much sooner in life, he might have staved off the entire thing if he'd been able to convince Fenrir that there was a better route.

Pre-DH, I'd thought that Fenrir was decently high up on the DE food chain. So, I was surprised when I saw what he really was - a tool for Voldemort, no more, no less. Ironically, it hurt the DE's - had Fenrir been able to summon Voldemort himself, they may have had Harry cornered instead of giving them time to make the escape.

I suppose I should have realized that he was merely a pawn instead of a major piece when he wasn't in the graveyard in GoF.

I wonder if the other werewolves also saw how he was treated by Voldemort and began to think less of him?

I wonder if the other werewolves also saw how he was treated by Voldemort and began to think less of him? He probably used it as proof to his followers of how much wizards mistreated werewolves.

Actually, Lupin said that Fenrir had his own goal. He worked for Voldemort many years because he was promised that werewolves were going to come into their own in the new regime. But I don't think Fenrir believed it, despite the fact that the DEs (and probably Voldemort) gave him wizards from time to time to turn into werewolves (i.e. Bella promised him Hermione). But Fenrir worked on his own anyway to turn wizards to werewolves (like he did Lupin) - either because of personal affronts as in Lupin's case (angry at his father), or just to increase the werewolf population for an eventual take over.

I don't think that Fenrir trusted or put his faith in Voldemort. He worked for him on the outside chance that he spoke the truth (which I believe Voldemort was lying) but I believe his main goal always remained population of his people. The other werewolves seemed to rally behind him at first, but since we didn't see any at the final battle (except Fenrir and Lupin), I would imagine Lupin was more sucessful that he thought with respect to talking them out of helping Voldemort. They likely saw how Voldy treated Fenrir and that would lessen their trust in him.

I never expected him high within the DE team. The highest DE were probably the 12 or whatever from the Graveyard. I rather saw Fenrir on the same level like Amycus, but I was really surprised to see that he even had no Mark, what makes me wonder.
Did Voldemort really thought that he was not worthy (too weak etc) enough to wear it or were there other reasons?
Fenrir didn't look like a person to underestimate and he showed good leader and fighting qualities. I rather think that Voldemort didn't gave him the Mark, because he feared that Fenrir would do something that Voldy wouldn't like. Maybe he feared that he had Fenrir and his werewolves not under control like he wanted to have them and expected them to turn against him and hence refused to give him the Mark (which is sign of loyality towards voldemort).

I would agree, I also don't think Fenrir wanted the dark mark. He didn't seem to trust Voldemort, but was rather using him for his own ends (and being used at the same time in return). It wasn't a very healthy relationship, imo.

I always imagined that Fenrir's main goal was to further the interests of werewolves, but in DH he only seemed interested in acquiring monetary rewards. I wonder what made him change his goals. Did he realize that his goal of contaminating and turning as many people in to werewolves as possible was something which would never be achieved?

The werewolves could have played a significant part in the battle of Hogwarts, so why did Fenrir lose contact with them? Was a strong connection with Voldemort after all more important to him then the fate of the werewolves?

So - who bit Fenrir????

I too think he had his own agenda but perhaps Lupin somehow (don't ask me how) managed to be a bit of an influence and somehow convinced them that Voldemort wasn't worth supporting since he didn't care about their fate as they weren't fullbloods anymore (if they had been in the past ) but were half-castes. The giants were in the same boat but it seems they were too stupid to figure this out.

I always imagined that Fenrir's main goal was to further the interests of werewolves, but in DH he only seemed interested in acquiring monetary rewards. I wonder what made him change his goals. Did he realize that his goal of contaminating and turning as many people in to werewolves as possible was something which would never be achieved?

The werewolves could have played a significant part in the battle of Hogwarts, so why did Fenrir lose contact with them? Was a strong connection with Voldemort after all more important to him then the fate of the werewolves?
I always imagined Fenrir's goal was to bite every single person on earth.

I always imagined Fenrir's goal was to bite every single person on earth.

Yes, so did I, but in DH he seemed to have other priorities. He joined the snatchers, it didn't seem that this helped him any further to his goal. He had to hand over the people he managed to catch to the Ministry. He could have withdrawn from Voldemort, I not sure if that would have meant his death, to continue with his werewolf plans.

Yes, so did I, but in DH he seemed to have other priorities. He joined the snatchers, it didn't seem that this helped him any further to his goal. He had to hand over the people he managed to catch to the Ministry. He could have withdrawn from Voldemort, I not sure if that would have meant his death, to continue with his werewolf plans.



Good point. What was his motivation to join the Snatchers and be so much more involved in Voldemort's cause? It seemed obvious from previous books that he wanted to attack as many innocent people as he could, and further promote the werewolf cause, but by DH, it seems that he has new plans and intentions, although I'm not sure of what they are, but there must be some motivation keeping him working for Voldemort.

Good point. What was his motivation to join the Snatchers and be so much more involved in Voldemort's cause? It seemed obvious from previous books that he wanted to attack as many innocent people as he could, and further promote the werewolf cause, but by DH, it seems that he has new plans and intentions, although I'm not sure of what they are, but there must be some motivation keeping him working for Voldemort.

I always assumed that Fenrir made the same mistake a lot of people made when joining the DE - he thought he could pursue his own agenda & I suspect he also thought that he could leave if he wanted to. In the previous books he was a force and a leader, in DH he was caged. Just my opinion!

That is an interesting assessment, Kittling. I hadn't really thought of Fenrir being trapped within Voldemort's clutches. He was still a leader in his own right having convinced many werewolves to follow him in assisting Voldemort. So he would have that leverage to hold over Voldemort's head. I think of all of Voldemort's followers, it would have been easiest for Fenrir to just walk away because he had a protective underground base (at least until HBP).

But in DH, I think your point becomes very valid. Although Remus did not believe his efforts with the werewolves would be tremendously successful, they actually were (none showed up at the final battle to assist Voldemort). So at that point, I would imagine Fenir would have realized that his support base had fallen away and he would be in a much more precarious position with Voldemort. I wonder if he lied to Voldemort about the loyalty of the werewolves to remain on his good side.

But I do believe that Fenrir was driven by more than simply being a leader. He really did want to increase the population of werewolves to the point where they could command respect and equality. So I think there might have been a part of him that couldn't care less if the werewolves remained loyal, as long as he kept them increasing in numbers. Because in the end, loyal or not, they would all fall behind a shot at equality (from Fenrir's perspective).

So who bit Fenrir to make him a werewolf? I also wonder if the werewolves had been treated better by others if Fenrir would have been quite as nasty. Still rather horrible I imagine but to a lesser extent perhaps.

There is no canon on who bit Fenrir, that I recall. I believe that if werewolves had been treated better by wizards, Fenrir would not have turned into the werewolf we saw in the books. His worsening behavior was initially shaped by the inequality and unfairness of mistreating werewolves and relegating them to outcasts and his wanting to do something about it.

There is no canon on who bit Fenrir, that I recall. I believe that if werewolves had been treated better by wizards, Fenrir would not have turned into the werewolf we saw in the books. His worsening behavior was initially shaped by the inequality and unfairness of mistreating werewolves and relegating them to outcasts and his wanting to do something about it.
Well I actually think that Remus is the exception there and Fenrir acts more like a normal werewolf. Werewolves are mostly treated as monsters, who go around and attack people and who needs to be destroyed.

Well I actually think that Remus is the exception there and Fenrir acts more like a normal werewolf. It's also possible that Fenrir's cult is so prominent and extreme that it earns all werewolves a bad press. I have a feeling there could have been werewolves who had a similar mindset as Remus did, there could have been werewolves who (independently of Fenrir) were violent and careless, and there may have been some who were in between the two extremes. I think Fenrir illustrates one type of extreme while Remus occupies the other.

I would opine that most werewolves were just trying to make their way the best they could and did not fiercely advocate Fenrir, although they likely felt that some of his ideologies were correct (equal rights for them).

I feel this way because Remus believed he would not be able to convince them to desist from joining Voldemort in his battling as Fenrir wanted them to, but we didn't see any werewolves in the battle except Fenrir and Remus. So Remus was apparently successful. I feel they they trusted Remus when he told them that in the end Voldemort would betray them. They saw the havoc that Voldemort was doing.

So I feel the majority wanted equal rights, but they were not ready to join Voldemort to get them - nor were they willing to actively support the wizards against Voldemort. I think they considered that it wasn't their war, but rather a wizard war and they wanted no part of it.

Werewolves are humans everyday except 1 per month, so they were fully capable of making an intelligent decision once they were presented with the facts. I would opine it was much like Vampires, who we also did not see in the final battle. I imagine they'd let the wizards duke it out and then make the best in the world that remained.

Lucky for werewolves, Hermione and Kingsley moved in to help, not allowing Fenrir's vicious attitude to deter them and recognizing he was just one of the many. :)

Honestly, I believe that Fenrir's apparent mission was nothing but a justification for his apalling actions.
Look at how he acted, when he met Dumbledore he spoke like a child looking for attention, when he saw Hermione he behaved more like a lecherous old man than some revolutionary. He probably had no goals beyond killing, eating and mutilating.
Of course, it would probably suit his ego to think of himself as a visionary.

I think it was more that at first Fenrir was a revoluntionary, but his ideology was deeply tainted by his willingness to use any means to achieve it. By DH, he had all but become a Death Eater in his methods and his ideology could no longer serve as a justification or excuse for his actions and behavior.

You really think that he had a clear ideology to begin with? A child killer and a cannibal? The whole werewolf issue seems like a childish excuse on his part. He does these things because he enjoys it. It's not for a cause, I've found no evidence that he truly believes in an underlying agenda. It's all for his own gratification.

Remus indicates that his initial plan was to increase the number of werewolves so they would no longer be in the minority and treated with disdain and non-citizens by society. We do not know how he initially decided on those he transformed, but with Remus it was in retaliation for an affront by his father. We know too that he placed himself near humans at transformation time in order to ensure he would bite a human and make more werewolves. But this method is wrongful of course, although the betterment of werewolves was not a wrongful idea in and of itself. However, as Dumbledore pointed out on the tower; Greyback's mentality and behavior grew worse and more evil as time passed and when he came into the HP storyline, he was an evil killer - but even in DH, he is still justifying his actions on his original theory. Recall that Bella told him he could have Hermione to add to his werewolf numbers. So that was still at least presumably his underlying goal. Recall too that the other werewolves stood behind Greyback and thus behind Voldemort. They were not all evil child killers and canibals. But they were taken in Greyback's ideology. Remus came along and attempted to show them his opposing view and he felt he was not successful at all, but as it turned out, no werewolves came to the final battle to assist Voldemort, so he obviously was able to convince them in the end.

Remus indicates that his initial plan was to increase the number of werewolves so they would no longer be in the minority and treated with disdain and non-citizens by society. We do not know how he initially decided on those he transformed, but with Remus it was in retaliation for an affront by his father. We know too that he placed himself near humans at transformation time in order to ensure he would bite a human and make more werewolves. But this method is wrongful of course, although the betterment of werewolves was not a wrongful idea in and of itself. However, as Dumbledore pointed out on the tower; Greyback's mentality and behavior grew worse and more evil as time passed and when he came into the HP storyline, he was an evil killer - but even in DH, he is still justifying his actions on his original theory. Recall that Bella told him he could have Hermione to add to his werewolf numbers. So that was still at least presumably his underlying goal. Recall too that the other werewolves stood behind Greyback and thus behind Voldemort. They were not all evil child killers and canibals. But they were taken in Greyback's ideology. Remus came along and attempted to show them his opposing view and he felt he was not successful at all, but as it turned out, no werewolves came to the final battle to assist Voldemort, so he obviously was able to convince them in the end.

I dunno did Greyback intend to turn her or just eat her?

:lol:...well Bella seemed to believe he wanted to turn her. Greyback didn't say...

Despite the fact that Fenrir had been creating werewolves for ages we never actually saw him with one, did we? It didn't sound as though his fellow Searchers were - the assumption was that Fenrir would bite Hermione given the chance. Maybe the others only became vicious at full moon so they didn't hang around with Fenrir at other times? And perhaps that's why they weren't at Hogwarts?

I hadn't thought of Fenrir having an ideology before. I'd assumed he'd behaved as he did through anger and revenge. I'll have to think that one through.

He's a quite unusual werewolf. Some people are ashamed, but he's just happy to be. Like- he actually place himself PURPOSEFULLY near a child to attack? I think that's just cruel. That just either end's the child's life or makes it not very happy to live. Probably the most evil person next to Voldemort and Bellatrix.

It's also possible that Fenrir's cult is so prominent and extreme that it earns all werewolves a bad press. I have a feeling there could have been werewolves who had a similar mindset as Remus did, there could have been werewolves who (independently of Fenrir) were violent and careless, and there may have been some who were in between the two extremes. I think Fenrir illustrates one type of extreme while Remus occupies the other.
I agree that Fenrir was probably viewed as extrem for a werewolf, but still before Remus werewolves in general weren't threatened good and they were refused things like education and the possibility to work and try to have a normal life. Remus was an extrem too, but I would place the generality of the werewolves closer to Fenrir than Remus. You see that Fenrir gathered other werewolves around him, while there were none on the good side (except for Remus). The other werewolves themselve chose to be with Fenrir. If society threatened them well, there would be no need for them to follow him. Fenrir promised them a better world, where werewolves will rule and I dare say that his extremity and madness made him the ulimate leader. He did almost everything to achieve his goals and that was probably the reason why others supported him.

You really think that he had a clear ideology to begin with? A child killer and a cannibal? The whole werewolf issue seems like a childish excuse on his part. He does these things because he enjoys it. It's not for a cause, I've found no evidence that he truly believes in an underlying agenda. It's all for his own gratification.
If it was only for his benefit, why should he set up all this werewolf supporting thing? It would be easier for him to do his killing alone without needing to bother about other werewolves. Part of him I think did it for his own pleasure, but I do think that he supported his ideology as well, that he really wanted to create a werewolve world.

Why did he try to bring the werewolves together? Because misery loves company.
Maybe he didn't want to be the only one into all that sick stuff, but he was probably a killer even before he got bit.
He was a small man with small ambitions. We hear all this ghastly stuff about him in Half-Blood Prince. From a biased source no less.
And what do we see in Deathly Hallows? A filthy wreck of a man simply looking for gold or some alone time with a girl who is far too young for him.
There's a world of difference between his supposed place in the world and what he actually seems content to do. I mean, how old is the guy? And he's mocking Ron like a school kid.
What does that tell you? He's a paper king of a non-existent kingdom

Why did he try to bring the werewolves together? Because misery loves company.
Maybe he didn't want to be the only one into all that sick stuff, but he was probably a killer even before he got bit.
what sick stuff?

There is no proof that he was, but he lived during a, for werewolves, difficult time. IMO he turned out like this because of how the society threatened him.

He was a small man with small ambitions. We hear all this ghastly stuff about him in Half-Blood Prince. From a biased source no less.
From a source who knew what he was talking about. From a source who knew more about werewolves than probably anybody else on that table.

And what do we see in Deathly Hallows? A filthy wreck of a man simply looking for gold or some alone time with a girl who is far too young for him.
Well, we know how much he liked kids. :err:

I agree that he was weak in DH, weaker than I hoped he would be.

Why did he try to bring the werewolves together? Because misery loves company.
Maybe he didn't want to be the only one into all that sick stuff, but he was probably a killer even before he got bit.
He was a small man with small ambitions. We hear all this ghastly stuff about him in Half-Blood Prince. From a biased source no less.
And what do we see in Deathly Hallows? A filthy wreck of a man simply looking for gold or some alone time with a girl who is far too young for him.
There's a world of difference between his supposed place in the world and what he actually seems content to do. I mean, how old is the guy? And he's mocking Ron like a school kid.
What does that tell you? He's a paper king of a non-existent kingdom

Well you have to give him the benefit of the doubt; he may not have had any education at all. But it was Remus (who was against him) that told us he had ambition with respect to the betterment of werewolves in the first place. But you know, but DH, Fenrir had degenerated to a wreck of a werewolf, I agree. Still, his goal, as good as it was, never had the proper means behind it.

I think Greyback is really the most evil character next to Voldemort and Bellatrix. I think it can be considered a positive quality about him that he was seeking better lives for the werewolves under Voldemort. Still I also think one of his reasons for joining Voldemort was selfishness. Voldemort promised him more victims. He is very blood thirsty and I feel that there is a certain degree of selfishness within him.

He shows no remorse and he loves the idea of attacking as much innocent people as possible. And its not only to turn people into werewolves to overcome wizards. He went beyond it and killed children and such.

I believe wizards surely were horrible to werewolves and there is probably some justification for Greyback hating wizards and wanting to overcome them with more numbers of werewolves but there is no justification for him trying to attack so many innocent people and even killing them. He went far beyond looking to better the lives of the werewolves.

I think he is pleased with himself that he is allowed to wear Death Eater robes but he must feel a little angry that he is still treated so much like an inferior even by Voldemort so as he cant have the Dark Mark placed on him or technically be considered a death eater. None the less Voldemort gave him more than anyone else would have.

Greyback is pretty horrible though, not to say that all the werewolves were like him.

This is offtopic but one of my favorite parts of the battle scene in DH was when Fenrir was about to kill Lavender and Treelawney threw those crystal balls at him! LOL

Yeah that was a funny part.

When did it say that Fenrir ate or killed children?

Yeah that was a funny part.

When did it say that Fenrir ate or killed children?
In HBP it said that the Montgomery sisters(random Hogwarts students apparently) looked very upset and Hermione said it was because Greyback attacked their brother and ended up killing him.

Also Voldemort unleashed Greyback upon parents children or at least threatened them. He is known for getting carried away when attacking children so I wouldn't be surprised if he killed other children.

From a source who knew what he was talking about. From a source who knew more about werewolves than probably anybody else on that table.

But Lupin could still be biased. Greyback bit him and ruined his life. I don't think we can take what Remus says on the matter as gospel truth because he is not a reliable source of information. He may have misunderstood things in order to conform to his own thinking on the matter.
Maybe he found it easier to view Greyback as someone with a plan rather than accepting that he got attacked by a random loon with a bad case of bloodlust.

But Lupin could still be biased. Greyback bit him and ruined his life. I don't think we can take what Remus says on the matter as gospel truth because he is not a reliable source of information. He may have misunderstood things in order to conform to his own thinking on the matter.
Maybe he found it easier to view Greyback as someone with a plan rather than accepting that he got attacked by a random loon with a bad case of bloodlust.

If Remus was a autonomous individual, I would agree with you. However, JKR wrote him to give us information in that scene; she never corrected it or changed it in any way, and she went on to have Bella say that she was giving him Hermione for his cause - increase in the number of werewolves. If JKR wanted us to believe that he really didn't have an original cause and that was all some wild story Lupin came up with, I feel she would have let the readers know that.

I still am inclined to think he bit people for the pleasure of it, rather than to further the cause of werewolves. After all, what use were the children to him? He wasn't selective, biting key people who would make a difference, he just preyed on the weak.

I still am inclined to think he bit people for the pleasure of it, rather than to further the cause of werewolves. After all, what use were the children to him? He wasn't selective, biting key people who would make a difference, he just preyed on the weak.

I would agree that by DH there was a lot of that in his mentality. I think that the whole ideology had taken a back seat to his base desires which had grown over the years to getting pleasure out of frightening, and hurting others. But I still believe that for the most part, he would not kill his victims, because he wanted them to join the ranks of the werewolves.

I still am inclined to think he bit people for the pleasure of it, rather than to further the cause of werewolves. After all, what use were the children to him?

Children are easier to influence, especially if you were to separate them from their parents/guardians and make them dependent on only you.

And that right there is why Fenrir is the creepiest character of them all to me.

I think Greyback is really the most evil character next to Voldemort and Bellatrix. I think it can be considered a positive quality about him that he was seeking better lives for the werewolves under Voldemort

I think it was less "better lives for werewolves" and more "werewolves will rule under Voldemort and I will be the king of the werewolves".

But I still believe that for the most part, he would not kill his victims, because he wanted them to join the ranks of the werewolves.Indeed, that seems to be his major objective. By biting children, he was able to brainwash them since often times it appears the parents would disown the children once they'd been bitten due to ignorance and the anti-werewolf sentiments of the wizarding world. It is to Greyback's advantage not to kill his victims, because that way he gains followers in his 'pack' who do his bidding and follow his way of life, thus propagating a vicious cycle that reinforces the negativity surrounding werewolves among magical folk.

Children are easier to influence, especially if you were to separate them from their parents/guardians and make them dependent on only you.

And that right there is why Fenrir is the creepiest character of them all to me.



I think it was less "better lives for werewolves" and more "werewolves will rule under Voldemort and I will be the king of the werewolves".

Yes thats very true. As I did say, he is a very selfish werewolf. You are right though, I suppose it wasn't so much making life better for werewolves. Its not like he was fighting for werewolf rights or something, he did indeed want to conquer wizards eventually.

Good point.

I still am inclined to think he bit people for the pleasure of it, rather than to further the cause of werewolves. After all, what use were the children to him? He wasn't selective, biting key people who would make a difference, he just preyed on the weak.
To add to what people said above. There were other people he could bite just for the sake of killing them, adults. I also agree that the kids were mostly there to enlarge the werewolf army.

I am however sure that he did kill kids, as he said to Dumbledore "but you know how much I like kids", which sounds more like liking how they taste like.

By biting children, he was able to brainwash them since often times it appears the parents would disown the children once they'd been bitten due to ignorance and the anti-werewolf sentiments of the wizarding world.
This brings up the question whether Fenrir was brainwashed too? which could explain his rather disturbing behaviour and mentality.

My guess is he was enraged at the way people treated him when he became a werewolf. SO he decided to create so many werewolves, the wizards became the minority. Eventually he actually thirsted for biting the children. VOldemort used this to hire him and threaten people.

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I want to keep saying things about Fenrir that I know are from fanfic (his dysfunctional family, the Squib mother he killed, how his attacks actually helped push anti-werewolf legislation, etc) but that I realize have become a big part of how I see him.

That said, he seems to have deliberately sharpened his human teeth. This kind of summarizes him for me. First, the little bit I know about cultures that sharpened teeth were all associated with things like cannibalism and human sacrifice. I first came across it in 1920's pulp fiction and was surprised when I found out that was one thing in pulp novels that had a factual basis - but my image of it is still very pulp and not too anthropologically sound.

Still, the people who did it seem to have done it to intimidate their enemies, a deliberate reminder of "Guess what we eat?"

Cannibals, remember?

But, when I think about worn away tooth enamal and how much closer the nerve endings would have been to the surface - not to mention that they were totally messing up the function of their teeth and causing all sorts of trouble - the stupidity of fashion over function once again strikes home.

So, Fenrir strikes me as trying to be really scary and gross, mostly succeeding, but doing it in a way that makes me subtract points from his IQ.

As for the rest, deliberate cannibal? Yeah, I'd bet he was. Psycho? Definitely.

And the kind of creep who deliberately targets kids, knowing at least a few of them are going to wind up eaten instead of changed.

My guess is he was enraged at the way people treated him when he became a werewolf. SO he decided to create so many werewolves, the wizards became the minority. Eventually he actually thirsted for biting the children. VOldemort used this to hire him and threaten people.
I'd also say that it was the influence of the other people that turned him into a monster. We know that werewolves were treated badly before Dumbledore got into charge, and Fenrir is much older than Remus (who in contrary had an acceptable life). So you could kinda say that Wizard society created their own werewolf enemy.

I want to keep saying things about Fenrir that I know are from fanfic (his dysfunctional family, the Squib mother he killed, how his attacks actually helped push anti-werewolf legislation, etc) but that I realize have become a big part of how I see him.

That said, he seems to have deliberately sharpened his human teeth. This kind of summarizes him for me. First, the little bit I know about cultures that sharpened teeth were all associated with things like cannibalism and human sacrifice. I first came across it in 1920's pulp fiction and was surprised when I found out that was one thing in pulp novels that had a factual basis - but my image of it is still very pulp and not too anthropologically sound.

Still, the people who did it seem to have done it to intimidate their enemies, a deliberate reminder of "Guess what we eat?"

Cannibals, remember?

But, when I think about worn away tooth enamal and how much closer the nerve endings would have been to the surface - not to mention that they were totally messing up the function of their teeth and causing all sorts of trouble - the stupidity of fashion over function once again strikes home.

So, Fenrir strikes me as trying to be really scary and gross, mostly succeeding, but doing it in a way that makes me subtract points from his IQ.

As for the rest, deliberate cannibal? Yeah, I'd bet he was. Psycho? Definitely.

And the kind of creep who deliberately targets kids, knowing at least a few of them are going to wind up eaten instead of changed.
I don't remember where it said that he's "sharpening his teeth", but even as human he shows more wolfish behaviour, like bark like voice, long nails... It seems as if he's human form adjusts to his werewolf form, but I don't think that he's doing it willingly, just that it happens like that. His mind is already werewolfish in human state and the body becomes too I guess.

[QUOTE=hermy_weasley2;4629918]1. Do you see things in Greyback, which can be called 'good'? Is there a hope that he will ever regret what he did over the years? Does he deserve compassion?

Personally, I don't see anything in him I would consider good. He seems to relish instilling fear in others - his threats against Dumbledore and against the students, talking to Ron about his intention to bite and/or kill Hermione. His eagerness to bite people, even when it isn't full moon - he's very unlikeable, imo. There's also the vindictiveness- he bit Remus because Lupin Sr. had offended him. I doubt he will begin to feel regret in time. While in Azkaban, he's more likely to become bitter over being imprisoned than to feel remorse for his actions, imo.

2. Why is Fenrir so far away from address things as his 'furry little problem'? What do you assume did Greyback choose his way of life while Lupin decided different? Why does he hate wizards and wants revenge? Was it his own choice or a matter of the times he grew up in where wolfsbane potions haven't been invented and the wizarding community perhaps show even less acceptance than nowadays?

Maybe there's the factor that Lupin had loyal friends. However, we don't know anything about Fenrir's background. Plus Lupin was alone after Lily and James died. We don't know if Fenrir was a child or an adult when he was bitten - the fact that he was excluded from Hogwarts may have been a contributing factor if he was a child. He uses magic in DH though -Apparates with Harry to Malfoy Manor, which suggests to me he had a reasonable level of magical education -Apparation is no mean feat. Perhaps he became embittered when society turned against him after he was bitten, especially if he'd had a promising future, or at least a future in the magical world.

3. Fenrir is exploited by Voldemort and the Death Eaters as a potent threat on the one hand, but searches for his own dubiously amusement on the other. He seems to ignore that they fear him. Does he like to be part of the Death Eaters or do they more or less disturb his own aims? Do you think that he is bothered by the fact that he's not totally accepted by Voldemort and the Death eaters and was not allowed a Dark Mark?

I'd imagine that Death Eaters like Bella consider a werewolf far beneath them, however, they accept that he is a powerful ally to have. He seemed slightly put out by not having the Dark Mark in DH -he wasn't pleased at having to explain that he couldn't summon the Dark Lord himself. This may just have been to do with claiming credit for capturing Harry though. I think he likes it that he's largely given a free rein while Voldemort is in charge of the Ministry. He's freer than he was pre-coup, when he would have been arrested had the Aurors been able to get him.


Children are easier to influence, especially if you were to separate them from their parents/guardians and make them dependent on only you.

And that right there is why Fenrir is the creepiest character of them all to me.

Absolutely, it's that aspect, above any other which makes me see no redeeming features in Greyback. It really is creepy.

Personally, I don't see anything in him I would consider good. He seems to relish instilling fear in others - his threats against Dumbledore and against the students, talking to Ron about his intention to bite and/or kill Hermione. His eagerness to bite people, even when it isn't full moon - he's very unlikeable, imo. There's also the vindictiveness- he bit Remus because Lupin Sr. had offended him. I doubt he will begin to feel regret in time. While in Azkaban, he's more likely to become bitter over being imprisoned than to feel remorse for his actions, imo.Oh well, you could debatt if some traits can't be considered "good" after all. I am sure that some employers would be happy to have such a person who shows so much dedication, always focusing on the goal and trying to achieve it with all possible methods, believing in their own power etc.



Maybe there's the factor that Lupin had loyal friends. However, we don't know anything about Fenrir's background. Plus Lupin was alone after Lily and James died. We don't know if Fenrir was a child or an adult when he was bitten - the fact that he was excluded from Hogwarts may have been a contributing factor if he was a child. He uses magic in DH though -Apparates with Harry to Malfoy Manor, which suggests to me he had a reasonable level of magical education -Apparation is no mean feat. Perhaps he became embittered when society turned against him after he was bitten, especially if he'd had a promising future, or at least a future in the magical world. Because he used magic doesn't mean that he had official training. Probably learned it from other wizards or taught it himself. Rather the lattter I'd say. I can't see another wizard willingly teaching him stuff, except when the said one was a wizard himself.


I'd imagine that Death Eaters like Bella consider a werewolf far beneath them, however, they accept that he is a powerful ally to have. He seemed slightly put out by not having the Dark Mark in DH -he wasn't pleased at having to explain that he couldn't summon the Dark Lord himself. This may just have been to do with claiming credit for capturing Harry though. I think he likes it that he's largely given a free rein while Voldemort is in charge of the Ministry. He's freer than he was pre-coup, when he would have been arrested had the Aurors been able to get him.I don't understand, so Fenrir could have summoned Voldemort but choosed not to?

Oh well, you could debatt if some traits can't be considered "good" after all. I am sure that some employers would be happy to have such a person who shows so much dedication, always focusing on the goal and trying to achieve it with all possible methods, believing in their own power etc.

Although the tendency to bite and maim people would come against him with an employer. :whistle: Bellatrix showed the same dedication and focus on the goal- doesn't mean it's positive in the way she and Fenrir applied it with their respective goals. Skills like dedication, focus, etc aren't good or bad themselves, imo, it depends on what you apply them to. Plus, using all possible methods as Fenrir did, isn't exactly positive, imo, people need to see limits to how far they are willing to go to achieve something - e.g. the law.


I don't understand, so Fenrir could have summoned Voldemort but choosed not to?

No, I can see that Fenrir couldn't summon Voldemort because he didn't have the mark. However, I don't think he was too bothered in general by not having the mark, except on this occasion because it meant someone else, who would be able to summon Voldemort could/would try to take credit, at least in part, for the capture of Harry and his companions.

1. Do you see things in Greyback, which can be called 'good'? Is there a hope that he will ever regret what he did over the years? Does he deserve compassion?

No redeeming features whatsoever. No compassion at all. No chance he'll regret anything. In the books, he comes across as a genuine sadist.

No, I can see that Fenrir couldn't summon Voldemort because he didn't have the mark. However, I don't think he was too bothered in general by not having the mark, except on this occasion because it meant someone else, who would be able to summon Voldemort could/would try to take credit, at least in part, for the capture of Harry and his companions.
Oh I see, I agree there. This capture was probably the best thing that happened to him by far and he for sure wanted to get the glory. Didn't he insist of being taken to the Manor though? I guess to make sure that he will be credited for it.