Harry Potter: Character Analysis

Originally Posted by ReelBigFish
I think it is a bit of a stretch to claim Harry never suffered emotional distress because of Snape because there is plenty of canon to state otherwise. Harry was affected by how Snape treated him IMO and crying is not the barometer of emotional distress. Harry dealt with Snapes bullying for several years and it had quite an affect on him. Harry also hated Snape for a good reason - Snapes treatment of him and Snapes bullying of him.

I'm not sure what canon you're referring to that shows Harry was emotionally affected by how Severus treated him. You're right. Crying is not a barometer of emotional distress. But, what are you referring to? Harry imagines scenario after scenario where Severus is up to one terrible thing or another, just because, as far as I'm concerned, Harry doesn't like him...hasn't liked him since his scar hurt and he had the dream about him the first night at Hogwarts. That dream, IMO, cannot be blamed on Severus because they'd never had any interaction.

Also - why shouldn't something break my heart?? It is my judgement and emotional state after all.

Correct. :agree:

As to when Harry learned that Severus had saved his life the first time, in was at the end of the First Year. Since Harry was so shocked to find out it was Quirrell-mort instead of Severus who was after the Stone, and that it was Quirrell-mort who'd tried to kill him, and taunted him about it and how he would have succeeded if Severus hadn't been using a counter-curse, I would think that would have stuck with Harry.

I was actually surprised when he was talking to Dumbledore in the hospital wing that he didn't ask him if he knew what Severus had done, just to confirm it, then asked Dumbledore to thank him. This isn't just etiquette, like thanking someone for a birthday gift. This person has saved you from dying. I would think a simple expression of thanks would not have been a great burden for Harry. Of course, Harry, being unfamiliar with the WW, also isn't aware of the "life-debt"...the same debt that Pettigrew owed Harry for saving his life in the Shrieking Shack, and caused him to hesitate in killing Harry in DH, and cost him his own life.

I was actually surprised when he was talking to Dumbledore in the hospital wing that he didn't ask him if he knew what Severus had done, just to confirm it, then asked Dumbledore to thank him. This isn't just etiquette, like thanking someone for a birthday gift. This person has saved you from dying. I would think a simple expression of thanks would not have been a great burden for Harry. Of course, Harry, being unfamiliar with the WW, also isn't aware of the "life-debt"...the same debt that Pettigrew owed Harry for saving his life in the Shrieking Shack, and caused him to hesitate in killing Harry in DH, and cost him his own life.


At the time it was the worst-kept secret at Hogwarts that Harry had prevented the Philosopher's Stone from being stolen. With the help of his friends he prevented Voldemort from getting his hands on it. At this point in the series he would not have been ready to face Voldemort in the forest. He was but a mere child whose disobedience most likely saved the wizarding world years of chaos and death. Apart from Dumbledore, I don't remember any teacher - including Snape - thanking Harry for this. And Harry did most certainly not expect it, either, in my opinion. I always had the impression that he did heroic things because he had a 'saving people' complex, not because he wanted to collect life debts or wanted other people to feel like they owed him thanks. I would argue that this was one of the reasons for him not extending thanks to Snape, whose job as a teacher was to protect students from harm, no? And since we all judge others by the standards we set ourselves, he did probably not expect Snape to wait for him to thank him or feel like he owed him something.

At the time it was the worst-kept secret at Hogwarts that Harry had prevented the Philosopher's Stone from being stolen. With the help of his friends he prevented Voldemort from getting his hands on it. At this point in the series he would not have been ready to face Voldemort in the forest. He was but a mere child whose disobedience most likely saved the wizarding world years of chaos and death. Apart from Dumbledore, I don't remember any teacher - including Snape - thanking Harry for this. And Harry did most certainly not expect it, either, in my opinion. I always had the impression that he did heroic things because he had a 'saving people' complex, not because he wanted to collect life debts or wanted other people to feel like they owed him thanks. I would argue that this was one of the reasons for him not extending thanks to Snape, whose job as a teacher was to protect students from harm, no? And since we all judge others by the standards we set ourselves, he did probably not expect Snape to wait for him to thank him or feel like he owed him something.

I would agree 99% of the time with that statement but i think in OotP when Ron got the prefect badge Harry did think he deserved that badge more than Ron did because of what he had done in the past. I think Harry felt he was owed that badge.

I would agree 99% of the time with that statement but i think in OotP when Ron got the prefect badge Harry did think he deserved that badge more than Ron did because of what he had done in the past. I think Harry felt he was owed that badge.

Agreed. But I would argue that he was in full misunderstood-teenager mode by then, complete with CAPSLOCK rage and spontaneous outbursts. I wouldn't say that OotP Harry displayed the same attitude as he had in previous years.

I always had the impression that he did heroic things because he had a 'saving people' complex, not because he wanted to collect life debts or wanted other people to feel like they owed him thanks. I would argue that this was one of the reasons for him not extending thanks to Snape, whose job as a teacher was to protect students from harm, no? And since we all judge others by the standards we set ourselves, he did probably not expect Snape to wait for him to thank him or feel like he owed him something.

I think you are right that that was Harry's outlook, due to his "saving people thing". Harry doesn't thank Dumbledore for saving his life, and doesn't expect people to shower him with thanks for the things he did. I think Harry's parents sacrificing themselves for him were what caused Harry to feel that that was just something that should be done. I think Harry felt uncomfortable with the adoration he sometimes got from strangers for his part in defeating Voldemort, and I think that would make him hesitate to be like those people.

I would agree 99% of the time with that statement but i think in OotP when Ron got the prefect badge Harry did think he deserved that badge more than Ron did because of what he had done in the past. I think Harry felt he was owed that badge.

I think part of Harry's self-absorbed angst (besides just being generally angsty in OotP) over the badge was because the Prefect assignment came from Dumbledore. I think Harry was angry and hurt and confused because Dumbledore had been ignoring him, so that contributed to his bitterness over the badge, as I think Harry felt it was another example of Dumbledore sweeping him aside without explanation. I think the lack of expanation was the big problem, because Harry was imaging explanations for Dumbledore's behavior which just made him feel even worse and more confused.

I want to add to the discussion about the badge. I think this was one time Harry actually thought he was better than Ron. He'd done all these brave things and Ron was just the side-kick. How could Ron be more deserving of being named Prefect than he was?

It doesn't sound like normal Harry, but this Harry had been out of contact with his friends all summer. They weren't allowed to write him and tell him what's going on. Dumbledore's not talking to him. He feels like an outcast and this is one more thing that separates him from his supposed two best friends. Harry'd always been placed above Ron and now even Dumbledore considers Ron the more deserving of the title of Prefect? But, he's Harry freakin' Potter. It doesn't compute. Not to him.

I always had the impression that he did heroic things because he had a 'saving people' complex, not because he wanted to collect life debts or wanted other people to feel like they owed him thanks.

I agree, I think Harry did the things he did -like going after the Stone, Ginny, into the Willow after Ron and Padfoot - because the alternative would be simply unthinkable to him. Not because he wanted thanks or appreciation or admiration. Harry couldn't bear the idea of letting Voldemort use the Stone to return, or leaving Ginny in the Chamber if there was the slightest chance she was alive, or running to get help when that could give the massive dog time to maul Ron to death.


I think you are right that that was Harry's outlook, due to his "saving people thing". Harry doesn't thank Dumbledore for saving his life, and doesn't expect people to shower him with thanks for the things he did. I think Harry's parents sacrificing themselves for him were what caused Harry to feel that that was just something that should be done. I think Harry felt uncomfortable with the adoration he sometimes got from strangers for his part in defeating Voldemort, and I think that would make him hesitate to be like those people.

Good point -Harry felt awkward about the attention he got - I don't think he saw any of it as a way to earn people's gratitude.
Interesting point about his parents' sacrifice -Harry comments in HBP that Merope had a choice, unlike Lily. Dumbledore corrects him that Lily did actually have a choice. But I think this shows Harry's mindset - when it comes to protecting a loved one, the choice is obvious. He believes he would do exactly as Lily did, and he shows this in DH. He sets off for the Forest without thinking of running for it (he feels there's no point, if I recall correctly). And while he longs to be stopped, he knows that he mustn't be stopped, and lies to Neville about his intentions.


It doesn't sound like normal Harry, but this Harry had been out of contact with his friends all summer. They weren't allowed to write him and tell him what's going on. Dumbledore's not talking to him. He feels like an outcast and this is one more thing that separates him from his supposed two best friends. Harry'd always been placed above Ron and now even Dumbledore considers Ron the more deserving of the title of Prefect? But, he's Harry freakin' Potter. It doesn't compute. Not to him.

I think the isolation is a good point. The isolation, following the fact of the ordeal that Harry went through at the end of GoF. Then he was left alone to try and deal with all that with only the Dursleys for company, instead of people who would support him in dealing with things. I think that had an affect on his ability to be rational about these things.
Plus, by the time he gets to the first DA meeting in the Hog's Head, Harry is quick to tell everyone that what he did wasn't that impressive, and that he had a lot of help.

I think the isolation is a good point. The isolation, following the fact of the ordeal that Harry went through at the end of GoF. Then he was left alone to try and deal with all that with only the Dursleys for company, instead of people who would support him in dealing with things. I think that had an affect on his ability to be rational about these things.
Plus, by the time he gets to the first DA meeting in the Hog's Head, Harry is quick to tell everyone that what he did wasn't that impressive, and that he had a lot of help.

Very good points :tu:

I've always felt Harry was suffering (amongst much more complicated things) a simple case of Survivor's Guilt throughout OotP.

Many people suffering from it have problems with worth and when the whole wizarding world is calling you a liar, you find out your 2 best friends (whom you're sure have a thing for each other) have been holed up together without a word and then you haven't become Prefect which you always expected. You're going to have problems with it. When he's screaming at Ron and Hermione and demeaning their contributions compared to his it's because he's feeling insignificant and needs reassurance. I don't think he believed it for a second. Harry knows without his friends he'd be nothing, and that probably made him feel even worse.

It never ended for him in the fifth year. He'd feel bad for feeling bad, he'd feel guilty for feeling guilty, angry for feeling angry. But I think through the support of his friends, the insight of others (Neville, Ginny and Luna) and becoming leader of the DA he rediscovered his sense of worth.

Many people suffering from it have problems with worth and when the whole wizarding world is calling you a liar, you find out your 2 best friends (whom you're sure have a thing for each other) have been holed up together without a word and then you haven't become Prefect which you always expected. You're going to have problems with it. When he's screaming at Ron and Hermione and demeaning their contributions compared to his it's because he's feeling insignificant and needs reassurance. I don't think he believed it for a second. Harry knows without his friends he'd be nothing, and that probably made him feel even worse.


Confidence is not something that Harry ever lacked. JKR herself has said that one of Harry's biggest flaws was that he could be overconfident (arrogant even).

I think you are right that that was Harry's outlook, due to his "saving people thing". Harry doesn't thank Dumbledore for saving his life, and doesn't expect people to shower him with thanks for the things he did. I think Harry's parents sacrificing themselves for him were what caused Harry to feel that that was just something that should be done. I think Harry felt uncomfortable with the adoration he sometimes got from strangers for his part in defeating Voldemort, and I think that would make him hesitate to be like those people.



I think part of Harry's self-absorbed angst (besides just being generally angsty in OotP) over the badge was because the Prefect assignment came from Dumbledore. I think Harry was angry and hurt and confused because Dumbledore had been ignoring him, so that contributed to his bitterness over the badge, as I think Harry felt it was another example of Dumbledore sweeping him aside without explanation. I think the lack of expanation was the big problem, because Harry was imaging explanations for Dumbledore's behavior which just made him feel even worse and more confused.

I think this analysis is spot on.

I want to add to the discussion about the badge. I think this was one time Harry actually thought he was better than Ron. He'd done all these brave things and Ron was just the side-kick. How could Ron be more deserving of being named Prefect than he was?

It doesn't sound like normal Harry, but this Harry had been out of contact with his friends all summer. They weren't allowed to write him and tell him what's going on. Dumbledore's not talking to him. He feels like an outcast and this is one more thing that separates him from his supposed two best friends. Harry'd always been placed above Ron and now even Dumbledore considers Ron the more deserving of the title of Prefect? But, he's Harry freakin' Potter. It doesn't compute. Not to him.

I think it also bears mentioning that Harry takes a hard look at his feelings about Ron being prefect, and comes to the conclusion, in short order, that Ron is just as deserving of the prefect badge as anyone else; he is sorry that he had felt jealous of his best friend, and is sincere when he congratulates Ron a few minutes later.

I think it also bears mentioning that Harry takes a hard look at his feelings about Ron being prefect, and comes to the conclusion, in short order, that Ron is just as deserving of the prefect badge as anyone else; he is sorry that he had felt jealous of his best friend, and is sincere when he congratulates Ron a few minutes later.

Exactly!! I have always found people painting harry bad because of his feelings over prefect badge and forget how rationally harry dealt with it inspite of his overall emotional state at that time.
I had no problem reading harry's thoughts in that scene.. because his intial thoughts and later how he overcame it rang very true.

And we shouldnt forget that, finally we come to know that DD did indeed have harry as the first choice for prefect. But decided against it later for other reasons. So depending on his past actions, if harry was hoping to be made prefect he wasnt wrong.

But he dealt with not being made prefect very well IMO

I think it also bears mentioning that Harry takes a hard look at his feelings about Ron being prefect, and comes to the conclusion, in short order, that Ron is just as deserving of the prefect badge as anyone else; he is sorry that he had felt jealous of his best friend, and is sincere when he congratulates Ron a few minutes later.

Exactly, when he rationally thought about it. His first thoughts aren't rational. I don't blame him.

We seem to be assuming that Harry was expecting to be a Prefect. I don't think he'd thought about it at all - he'd never mentioned it anyway. When the badge came for Ron I think it took Harry by surprise and his initial feeling of 'Why him? Why not me?' came from not really having thought about it before. He was already pretty annoyed that Ron had done the things Harry would have liked to have been doing that summer - helping the OotP, being with the others, seeing Dumbledore etc, - he already felt thoroughly overlooked. If the badge had come a week later, when Harry had got over the ignored bit, I don't think he'd have minded so much.

We seem to be assuming that Harry was expecting to be a Prefect. I don't think he'd thought about it at all - he'd never mentioned it anyway. When the badge came for Ron I think it took Harry by surprise and his initial feeling of 'Why him? Why not me?' came from not really having thought about it before. He was already pretty annoyed that Ron had done the things Harry would have liked to have been doing that summer - helping the OotP, being with the others, seeing Dumbledore etc, - he already felt thoroughly overlooked. If the badge had come a week later, when Harry had got over the ignored bit, I don't think he'd have minded so much.

Yes exactly. I think it added to Harry's feeling that as an individual, aside from being the "Chosen one" he didn't really exist, or was much of anything. As if his entire identity was being the "Chosen one" and not for being Harry.

His behavior towards Harry is not pardoned by any means, don't get me wrong, but Harry has the annoying problem of being a main character, and any kind of abuse he just seems to shrug off. The Dursley's locked him in a closet for close to a month at one point and emotionally berate him--Petunia at one points tries to hit him with a frying pan--that's abuse! But Harry is not affected by it on any level that is normal. He saw Snape's dislike and nastiness towards him as just a teacher out to get him, he wasn't emotionally distraught by it at all.

Harry does react, though - he resents and even hates Snape because of Snape's behaviour towards him. He doesn't react by becoming a weak doormat, desperate for approval from someone showing him only animosity.

I think this is similar to his behaviour at the Dursleys - he knows the Dursleys dislike him, and he isn't kidding himself that he can get them to like him.

Personally, I think the problem of being the main character comes to the fore in OotP. Here, Harry reacts realistically to the horrific ordeal he went through in the graveyard, and the salt in the wound of the Ministry's campaign against him. Yet, it is here that Harry comes in for most criticism from readers, from what I've noticed. The problem of being the main character here is that angst seems to be accepted and sympaathised with in small doses, like Snape's or Sirius' problems. If the entire series had consisted of Harry showing the kind of response to problems that he does in OotP, I think the series would have been much less successful, and Harry much, much more criticised.

Harry does react, though - he resents and even hates Snape because of Snape's behaviour towards him. He doesn't react by becoming a weak doormat, desperate for approval from someone showing him only animosity.

I think this is similar to his behaviour at the Dursleys - he knows the Dursleys dislike him, and he isn't kidding himself that he can get them to like him.


That's the problem. He grew up in that situation, he shouldn't be he was "wasn't kidding himself" about the Dursleys. It isn't a matter of getting them to like him, its the insecurities and mental abuse that would make him a lot less sociable and confident. I'm not saying that Harry should have been a whiny mess since the beginning, but just a little hint that he had in fact come from a bad home and shown his slow change into what he had become instantly once at Hogwarts. Case in point: You put an emotionally and physically abused boy who's been living under the stairs and stand him next to a regular boy from a loving family. Can you see the difference? In attitude and behavior? He gets over the bad treatment far too quickly to be normal, and because of that, when I was a child reading it for the first time, I didn't like Harry very much because he didn't seem human to me.

That's the problem. He grew up in that situation, he shouldn't be he was "wasn't kidding himself" about the Dursleys. It isn't a matter of getting them to like him, its the insecurities and mental abuse that would make him a lot less sociable and confident. I'm not saying that Harry should have been a whiny mess since the beginning, but just a little hint that he had in fact come from a bad home and shown his slow change into what he had become instantly once at Hogwarts. Case in point: You put an emotionally and physically abused boy who's been living under the stairs and stand him next to a regular boy from a loving family. Can you see the difference? In attitude and behavior? He gets over the bad treatment far too quickly to be normal, and because of that, when I was a child reading it for the first time, I didn't like Harry very much because he didn't seem human to me.

IMO, with the Dursleys, as with Snape, Harry dislikes them because of the way they treat him. That was my point about not being desperate for them to like him, he didn't go out of his way or make an effort for people who treated him badly. His response was to return the animosity rather than to be desperate for the person to like him instead. He wondered why Snape disliked him, but I think he had probably stopped caring why the Dursleys disliked him by the time of PS/SS.

There are some indications in Harry's behaviour - I think he doesn't trust authority easily - people need to earn Harry's trust, no matter how important they are. To be specific, I think Harry trusts people based on their actions, and not on their status. He especially doesn't trust authority when the authority figure shows unfairness. I think this stems from the Dursley's treatment.
Harry's response to the Dursley's seems to be largely cheek - even before he gets his Hogwarts letter - for example, the remark about the uniform Petunia was dyeing for him, and about the toilets. It seems to be a defence mechanism for Harry, and it's one he uses when it comes to Umbridge and Snape, too.

IMO, with the Dursleys, as with Snape, Harry dislikes them because of the way they treat him. That was my point about not being desperate for them to like him, he didn't go out of his way or make an effort for people who treated him badly. His response was to return the animosity rather than to be desperate for the person to like him instead. He wondered why Snape disliked him, but I think he had probably stopped caring why the Dursleys disliked him by the time of PS/SS.

There are some indications in Harry's behaviour - I think he doesn't trust authority easily - people need to earn Harry's trust, no matter how important they are. To be specific, I think Harry trusts people based on their actions, and not on their status. He especially doesn't trust authority when the authority figure shows unfairness. I think this stems from the Dursley's treatment.
Harry's response to the Dursley's seems to be largely cheek - even before he gets his Hogwarts letter - for example, the remark about the uniform Petunia was dyeing for him, and about the toilets. It seems to be a defence mechanism for Harry, and it's one he uses when it comes to Umbridge and Snape, too.

The problem isn't that Harry wants the Dursley's to like him. It's very obvious he doesn't. The problem is there is no real noticeable affect on his emotional stability. kids raised like that don't come out smiling and happy so quickly. Yes, Harry has problems trusting, but he does wind up trusting a whole lot of people, and the notion isn't very noteworthy in the long run. He spent eleven years of his life being treated like dirt and physically and emotionally abused. Where are the self-confidence issues? Nothing really drastic. A child who is raised that when you give cheek, you get smacked and thrown in a cupboard learn, not that they want to please them, but that they simply shouldn't say anything to avoid being smacked. Look at Cosette from Les Miserables, who was the inspiration for Harry Potter. She is abused by the Thenardeas, sleeps in a closet under the stairs and constantly being put to work. She is quiet because she knows any resistance will get her in trouble. She hates them, but doesn't wish to make them happy, her only thoughts are on if she will get beaten for losing a coin while fetching some water.

I think that the whole situation just stems on J.K's horribly limited knowledge of the psychological effects of abuse in children. She needed Harry to be a strong character fairly early, but he needed a good sob story so that people could sympathize with him.

From the Snape character analysis thread:

And after that these incidents were nothing more than just that; incidents that happened at those rather turbulent times IMO.

It seemed to me, that Harry was fairly immune to bad treatment and abuse, as the Dursleys behaviour towards him wasn't reflected in his own behaviour. But naturaly, when a child is treated unfairly and set apart from the group of children surrounding him/her, it usually makes them wallow and distant themselves away from others, trying to decipher the reasons behind such treatment, rather than improve themselves despite those obstacles. Harry rarely ever tried to go against Snape's behaviour towards him, and prove himself. His usual behaviour in the Potions class was to sit in the end of the class (more to avoid Snape's harsh comments, than anything) and try to concentrate as best as he could on his Potion.

They may not have been turbulent times, as you put it, but in my opinion, they definitely hindered Harry's learning progress, which could have been much better if he hadn't been singled out from the beginning for blame and criticism. And had it been in a more central thing in his life, I think he would have failed miserably.

It seemed to me, that Harry was fairly immune to bad treatment and abuse, as the Dursleys behaviour towards him wasn't reflected in his own behaviour.

But had any interaction been instances of bullying, that would still not make an action right towards Harry, just because Harry may have been immune. I don't think he was immune; he may have been resigned to it as his fate, but I don't think he would have been immune.

The thing is whether certain actions of Snape towards Harry are bullying or not. For me, those actions would by bullying had they be done with only one specific intent in mind. To cruelly taunt and hurt for no reason. It would be bullying IMO if Snape or anyone wanted to belittle Harry because they could, because he existed (like Dudley and his friends bullied Harry), or because they wielded some power over him that made them treat him poorly, uncaringly. I disagree with the opinion that Harry was bullied by Snape, simply because I guess, I can't see him on par with Dudley or Piers or Umbridge who treated others callously just because they could.

So, I don't think Harry was bullied by Snape; I agree Snape may have been short with Harry, taken James's name when he felt Harry was emulating James in a manner Snape did not approve of, but I also feel that from the moment Snape agreed to protect Harry, he also acquired rights over him, to warn him, when he felt Harry was doing something that could end badly for him. If it was said that Snape did not do that in a sweet way, I'd agree, but I don't think that the fact Snape was not sweet, meant he was bullying towards Harry.

ok harry potter aka wonder boy, doesn't develop like a normal boy, first of all he first notices girls at the age of 15 now that ain't natural most boys develop fondness or attraction at 11-12 secondly he still thinks snapes evil even though in the first book snape saved his skinny bodied life from falling off a high altitude on a broom, AND god he's so stupid; he runs into danger all the time, its like oh i know theres a very powerful EXPERIENCED wizard that wants to kill me, i'm gonna go by myself i won't tell a teacher no. he should tell a teacher and hope hte dude believes him or he should tell dumbledore whats going on, god he irritates me so much. its kind of like at first when i read the book i was like ok but he does the same thing over and over again and again >:o

i agree :O

ok harry potter aka wonder boy, doesn't develop like a normal boy, first of all he first notices girls at the age of 15 now that ain't natural most boys develop fondness or attraction at 11-12 secondly he still thinks snapes evil even though in the first book snape saved his skinny bodied life from falling off a high altitude on a broom, AND god he's so stupid; he runs into danger all the time, its like oh i know theres a very powerful EXPERIENCED wizard that wants to kill me, i'm gonna go by myself i won't tell a teacher no. he should tell a teacher and hope hte dude believes him or he should tell dumbledore whats going on, god he irritates me so much. its kind of like at first when i read the book i was like ok but he does the same thing over and over again and again >:o

i agree :O

Yes, Harry is flawed. I really don't think Jo would have written his attraction to girls at a younger age, out of appropriateness and also plot significance.

ok harry potter aka wonder boy, doesn't develop like a normal boy, first of all he first notices girls at the age of 15 now that ain't natural most boys develop fondness or attraction at 11-12 secondly he still thinks snapes evil even though in the first book snape saved his skinny bodied life from falling off a high altitude on a broom, AND god he's so stupid; he runs into danger all the time, its like oh i know theres a very powerful EXPERIENCED wizard that wants to kill me, i'm gonna go by myself i won't tell a teacher no. he should tell a teacher and hope hte dude believes him or he should tell dumbledore whats going on, god he irritates me so much. its kind of like at first when i read the book i was like ok but he does the same thing over and over again and again >:o

Acctually, Harry notices Cho already in PoA, during the Qidditch match agains Rawenclaw (13 years) and he's atracted to her in GoF as well. In addition to this, Harry isn't a normal boy. Just think about how much of his spare time he spends with Ron and Hermione in the liberary or in a deserted corner in the common room trying to figure out how to save the Philosophers Stone, Stop the Basilisk etc. He was really to busy 'saving the wizarding world' at his younger days.

And you can't really blame him for not trusting Snape, he really had no good reason to do so, other than Dumbledore's word. It is also natural to dislike someone who are mean to you all the time.

And just think about how booring the books would be if Harry didn't get into trouble all the time. It would really not be interesting to read about him running to the teachers every time he suspected something. Thats at least my opinion ;)

ok harry potter aka wonder boy, doesn't develop like a normal boy, first of all he first notices girls at the age of 15 now that ain't natural most boys develop fondness or attraction at 11-12Well, as was mentioned above, Harry first notices Cho at age 13. But I doubt that all boys notice girls at the same time, I'm sure there are some who notice them a lot later. I don't really see this as being abnormal, especially given what Harry faces as he realizes there is a powerful bad guy after him. Furthermore, it's not relevant to the plot at this point.

secondly he still thinks snapes evil even though in the first book snape saved his skinny bodied life from falling off a high altitude on a broom,While it's true that Snape saved Harry's life, this does not mean Harry has to like Snape. The man treats him, and others he is friends, with horribly. It is natural for Harry to distrust him.

he runs into danger all the time, its like oh i know theres a very powerful EXPERIENCED wizard that wants to kill me, i'm gonna go by myself i won't tell a teacher no. he should tell a teacher and hope hte dude believes him or he should tell dumbledore whats going on

I think Harry takes after his father and Sirius in this regard - he sometimes doesn't stop to think of a better way to handle a situation than running in with his friends to do something. One such instance is in Chamber of Secrets where he and Ron take the flying car to school instead of trying to reach someone by owl, as Professor McGonagall points out. Harry responds with, "I didn't think..." Another instance is in OotP where Harry insists that they must go to the Department of Mysteries to save Sirius.

I do think this is one of his flaws and part of the "saving people" complex he has. Trying to handle every situation yourself isn't always the best way to go. But I think his early childhood may have had an influence here. He was brought up by people who were not there for him when he needed them, and who treated him very unkindly to say the least. So I think he assumes that if he needs something done, he's got to do it himself (with his friends' help rather than an adult's). At Hogwarts, it's no longer the case that there's no one there to help him, but his habits die hard.

Though to be fair to Harry, there were certain situations where a teacher wasn't inclined to believe him, and he had to act without their help. Two come to mind: one is in PS/SS when Harry insists the Sorcerer's Stone is in danger from theft, but McGonagall doesn't believe him. Also, in PoA when he finds out about Peter Pettigrew being a rat animagus it's highly unlikely, as Dumbledore points out, that people would believe the word of a 13-year-old to a full grown wizard.

But had any interaction been instances of bullying, that would still not make an action right towards Harry, just because Harry may have been immune. I don't think he was immune; he may have been resigned to it as his fate, but I don't think he would have been immune.

The thing is whether certain actions of Snape towards Harry are bullying or not. For me, those actions would by bullying had they be done with only one specific intent in mind. To cruelly taunt and hurt for no reason. It would be bullying IMO if Snape or anyone wanted to belittle Harry because they could, because he existed (like Dudley and his friends bullied Harry), or because they wielded some power over him that made them treat him poorly, uncaringly. I disagree with the opinion that Harry was bullied by Snape, simply because I guess, I can't see him on par with Dudley or Piers or Umbridge who treated others callously just because they could.

So, I don't think Harry was bullied by Snape; I agree Snape may have been short with Harry, taken James's name when he felt Harry was emulating James in a manner Snape did not approve of, but I also feel that from the moment Snape agreed to protect Harry, he also acquired rights over him, to warn him, when he felt Harry was doing something that could end badly for him. If it was said that Snape did not do that in a sweet way, I'd agree, but I don't think that the fact Snape was not sweet, meant he was bullying towards Harry.

This is a great analysis. I don't think Snape bullied Harry either in the strictest sense of the word. I think that Snape saw many of the things that people hate about Harry and he tried to teach him and show him a different way. In HBP I think we see how great of a teacher Snape actually was to Harry. Yes he was cruel and in OOTP he let his feelings get the best of him and he became truly hateful toward Harry. But, throughout the series Snape stands in contrast to Harry and his lack of subtlety and deception. When Snape is casually thwarting Harry's attempts to curse him he is teaching him. Harry had to learn that his morals and character would be tested in the future and Snape from the beginning was the perfect mentor in learning that. Sometimes we forget that a lot of people learn from cruelty and Snape never physically abused Harry or allowed people to harm him. Harry understood this in the end which is why he named his child after him.

"No Unforgivable curses from you, Potter!" he shouted over the rushing of flames, Hagrid's yells, and the wild yelping of the trapped Fang. "You haven't got the nerve or ability -"

"Blocked again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" sneered Snape, deflecting the curse once more.

But had any interaction been instances of bullying, that would still not make an action right towards Harry, just because Harry may have been immune. I don't think he was immune; he may have been resigned to it as his fate, but I don't think he would have been immune.

But I didn't say that being immune makes bullying Harry right. What I meant to say, is that being immune to bullying made its effects a bit unclear to notice in Harry's character, as they would have been in another case. The reason I think he could bear with Snape's treatment, is that he'd grown up in a house where he was treated unfairly and was often abused. Another reason was his friends' support and encouragement; they always made him feel better and stood beside him for such situations. And finally, Harry's parental figures, who treated him fairly, and showed him love and care, such as Mr. and Mrs. Weasley, whose treatment was the exact opposite of the Dursleys and (arguably) Snape.

The thing is whether certain actions of Snape towards Harry are bullying or not. For me, those actions would by bullying had they be done with only one specific intent in mind. To cruelly taunt and hurt for no reason. It would be bullying IMO if Snape or anyone wanted to belittle Harry because they could, because he existed (like Dudley and his friends bullied Harry), or because they wielded some power over him that made them treat him poorly, uncaringly. I disagree with the opinion that Harry was bullied by Snape, simply because I guess, I can't see him on par with Dudley or Piers or Umbridge who treated others callously just because they could.

Yes, it all depends on whether we think Snape bullied Harry or not, right? That's not the place for this discussion, though..

When do we first see evidence of Harry's "saving people" thing? Is this a strength or a flaw? What do you think of his final sacrifice?

What do you think are Harry's greatest strengths?

Why do you think Harry forgave Snape?


I think we see very early from the PS/CoS days. But he really put himself in danger from someone else's life in OotP, when he wanted to save Sirius! I see it as a strength, something inherited from both his parents, especially his mother. About his final sacrifice, I was a bit shocked at how he was so...brave? is that the correct word to use? I think it's more complicated than that, it was like he resigned himself and managed to muster the strenght to walk through that forest after losing so many loved ones - His parents, his godfather, Lupin - dad's friend, sort of a mentor to Harry, Dumbledore - mentor, Snape - as much as he hated him, he probably realized what Snape put himself into for Harry at that point and many other friends. I wonder how hard it is to live having lost so many people. :sad:


Harry's greatest strengt is no doubt his immense Bravery. I think this is his flaw too, he's too impuslive at times and makes bad decisions. He is also a very kind and humble person. Despite the things he's been through he's remained very humble and forgiving. I think that above everything else is a very selfless trait - kindness and the ability to forgive others. However, when provoked he is a bit arrogant and hotheaded. He lets his emotions, nerves etc get the best of him in most (not all) circumstances. All in all I just love him!


I think with the realization of what Harry was suppose to do infront of him, at the point, he was willing to forgive and look beyond everything. Even if that weren't the case, he would've forgiven Snape. Who wouldn't? Yes he was a deatheater and was certainly very cruel in some circumstances but I think he redeemed himself finally. Harry is a kind and empathetic person. Even after SWM Harry was a bit embarrased around Snape.

I have been wondering for ages now about Harry's long terms thoughts about Severus and Lily. Though I don't think it would have occurred to him directly after the "Prince's Tale" but in the days and weeks after Voldemort's death, does Harry ever truly appreciate that it ws very possible that Snape could have been his father.

Lily chose James. She didn't think of Snape romantically. What might have been is a different question but there is a whole world of 'mights' and 'ifs' to make this scenario possible. I doubt that Harry ever thought about this. What would he have gained by this train of thoughts?

Lily chose James. She didn't think of Snape romantically. What might have been is a different question but there is a whole world of 'mights' and 'ifs' to make this scenario possible. I doubt that Harry ever thought about this. What would he have gained by this train of thoughts?


She didn't think about James romantically for 5 years either.

She didn't think about James romantically for 5 years either.

No, but he was her choice, when she did choose someone. Lily was free to love whom she wanted, and she chose James. IMO, Harry accepted and respected Lily's right to choose who she wanted to be with.

I have been wondering for ages now about Harry's long terms thoughts about Severus and Lily. Though I don't think it would have occurred to him directly after the "Prince's Tale" but in the days and weeks after Voldemort's death, does Harry ever truly appreciate that it ws very possible that Snape could have been his father.

Harry was James and Lily's child.

Severus could never have been Harry's father. Even if Lily had got together with Severus in some alternate universe, and even if they had had a son, that son would not have been Harry.

I can't see Harry wanting anyone else but James as his father, and I don't see any indication that Harry tried to imagine away his family. The James who appeared in the forest again gave him courage and comfort, and as Sirius pointed out to Harry, those that appeared from the Resurrection Stone came from within. Simply put, James was part of Harry. Harry's earliest memory was from the night his parents were murdered, and Harry could recall James rushing out to try to give his family time to flee. I think the early love Harry recieved from his family and the memory of their love and courage were integral to making Harry into the person he was, as well the knowledge that his parents shared a mutual love and morals. I just can't see Harry imagining away his family for something else.

I've deleted several posts, either because they were entirely speculative and unsubstantiated (or were replies to deleted posts) or because they wandered into dubiously family-friendly waters.

We have no idea whether Harry ever thought about what would have happened if Lily had married Snape, not James, let alone what he would have thought about it, so let's not discuss it, please.

I can't see Harry wanting anyone else but James as his father, and I don't see any indication that Harry tried to imagine away his family. The James who appeared in the forest again gave him courage and comfort, and as Sirius pointed out to Harry, those that appeared from the Resurrection Stone came from within.

I quite agree. Harry's parents have always been a valuable part of himself. The thought of joining them, or having them with him, was his heart's deepest desire. And generally, the memory of them was always a great source of comfort for him - except, of course for the time when he found out how his father's teenage self was like. But even that, in my opinion, helped shape Harry's connection with his parent's much better than it used to be. He no longer saw a perfect image of flawless persons who could do no wrong, but people who were naturally flawed and who made mistakes and tried to grow out of them and be better people.
I don't think Harry would've ever wanted to have a different family. Especially not after his experience with Voldemort, death and sacrificing oneself, and seeing how difficult it is. He had two people who chose to die, so he could live, for parents. I think he realised that almost no-one else could love him just as much.

The thing is whether certain actions of Snape towards Harry are bullying or not. For me, those actions would by bullying had they be done with only one specific intent in mind. To cruelly taunt and hurt for no reason. It would be bullying IMO if Snape or anyone wanted to belittle Harry because they could, because he existed (like Dudley and his friends bullied Harry), or because they wielded some power over him that made them treat him poorly, uncaringly. I disagree with the opinion that Harry was bullied by Snape, simply because I guess, I can't see him on par with Dudley or Piers or Umbridge who treated others callously just because they could.

Throughout the first two books in the series, I think it's fair to say that Snape treated Harry unfairly for absolutely no reason, and indeed, makes Snape a bully. In Harry's first Potions class, Snape belittled him with the intent of hurting him and to get others to laugh by asking him a series of questions he knew Harry wouldn't be able to answer. There was no reason for this, other than to taunt him. This continues throughout the first two books.

But I didn't say that being immune makes bullying Harry right. What I meant to say, is that being immune to bullying made its effects a bit unclear to notice in Harry's character, as they would have been in another case. The reason I think he could bear with Snape's treatment, is that he'd grown up in a house where he was treated unfairly and was often abused. Another reason was his friends' support and encouragement; they always made him feel better and stood beside him for such situations. And finally, Harry's parental figures, who treated him fairly, and showed him love and care, such as Mr. and Mrs. Weasley, whose treatment was the exact opposite of the Dursleys and (arguably) Snape.

I agree that Harry was able to handle Snape's treatment due to his being verbally abused and treated unfairly by the Dursleys. He also had a strong support system within the Wizarding World, inside and outside of Hogwarts.

There comes a point where Snape's treatment of Harry really no longer has an effect on him the way it did in the first two novels. Harry is able to stand up to Snape. He has no respect for Snape and understands that Snape's treatment of him is childish and illogical. Once he learns more about Snape's past through Sirius and Lupin, along with the failed Occlumency lessons, he is also able to use that information against Snape whenever Snape tries to berate him. While Snape's cruelty as Harry became older may have been with the intent to teach him, his cruelty in at least the first two books is uncalled for and petty.

As to why or how Harry was able to forgive Snape, I've never been too sure. I understand Snape's sacrifice and all of that, but I still don't see how Harry was able to look past everything else - Snape being a Death Eater (he never would have changed sides if Voldemort had not went after Lily), his treatment of Lily (yes, calling her a Mudblood is a terrible, terrible thing), and of course, Snape's treatment of Harry. However, Harry was always able to forgive the people who treated him wrongly. We see that early on, when students believe he is the Heir of Slytherin. Harry is always able to see the big picture, even when it may be cloudy at times. While people's words do hurt him, he is also able to look past what others say to understand them and himself better. I'm proud of Harry for being able to forgive Snape - just not sure he should have went so far as to name his child after him. I think Albus Sirius rolls off the tongue a bit better, no? ;)

There comes a point where Snape's treatment of Harry really no longer has an effect on him the way it did in the first two novels. Harry is able to stand up to Snape.

Exactly. Snape knew that Voldemort would return and that Harry would end up having to confront him. Snape's harsh words were small potatoes compared to what he knew Harry would have to confront later on. I believe Snape began by teaching Harry how to handle him. I think he knew Harry had plenty enough support from others to not need coddling from him - he needed to be built up for the war which was to come. Snape helped Harry grow thicker skin.

As to why or how Harry was able to forgive Snape, I've never been too sure. I understand Snape's sacrifice and all of that, but I still don't see how Harry was able to look past everything else - Snape being a Death Eater (he never would have changed sides if Voldemort had not went after Lily), his treatment of Lily (yes, calling her a Mudblood is a terrible, terrible thing), and of course, Snape's treatment of Harry.
Harry knew people changed. He knew they were human and made mistakes. IMHO, he realized that Snape made a mistake, regretted it, and spent the rest of his life working to defeat Voldemort. He knew Snape loved his mother and devoted himself to protecting him, rather than running away and doing nothing. Snape was willing to lay down his life for what he believed in. He was Dumbledore's man, no longer a Death Eater, fought on the right side, and in Harry's mind he both forgave and respected him.

does Harry ever truly appreciate that it ws very possible that Snape could have been his father.

Where in the series is this ever even mildly alluded to? Lily never loved Snape. She considered him a friend until his lifestyle no longer meshed with her own. They ended their friendship when they were 15 years old. There was no chance for them to ever be a couple as Snape chose to become a Death Eater.

I'm proud of Harry for being able to forgive Snape - just not sure he should have went so far as to name his child after him. I think Albus Sirius rolls off the tongue a bit better, no? ;)

The older son according to JKR (and which I'm sure will be canonically confirmed in Pottermore) is named "James Sirius."

The naming of his second child "Albus Severus" demonstrates Harry's acknowledgment that people change and that surface appearances do not reveal deeper truths. I'm immensely proud of Harry for the naming of his second son.

The older son according to JKR (and which I'm sure will be canonically confirmed in Pottermore) is named "James Sirius."

I know, but many children in the same families have the same middle name. As I said before, I am proud of him as well :)

Carrying a discussion over from the Snape and Dumbledore thread, because what I want to say is more about Harry...

Yes, but it had taken Harry months to get to this point with Dumbledore. I agree that he had forgiven DD by the time he confronted Voldemort, but his forgiveness was much slower to come with Dumbledore, perhaps because of the amount of respect Harry had for Dumbledore.

I think it was more difficult for Harry to forgive Dumbledore because Harry truly cared about Dumbledore. It is much harder to be deceived by someone you care about. On the other hand, Harry saw and understood Snape's angst and anger from a completely different light following The Prince's Tale.

I think where I differ from you, is that I think one cannot compare how Harry felt about Snape, to how he felt about Dumbledore in the middle of DH. Was he saddened, disappointed, frustrated, and at times even angry at the mess he felt Dumbledore had left him in? Yes, surely, but I felt he was also still giving him the benefit of the doubt, since he was dead and not able to explain himself.

I felt there was a qualitative change in his feelings about Dumbledore after he saw Snape's memories, and concluded (incorrectly, but in line with what Dumbledore told Snape) that Dumbledore had been planning for Harry's death at Voldemort's hand all along, and lying to him to make him think he had a chance to survive. Only then did it really become personal for Harry. Whereas of course Harry had strong personal reasons to hate Snape, the "murderer" of Dumbledore, and the man who sent Voldemort after Harry in the first place.

The older son according to JKR (and which I'm sure will be canonically confirmed in Pottermore) is named "James Sirius."

The naming of his second child "Albus Severus" demonstrates Harry's acknowledgment that people change and that surface appearances do not reveal deeper truths. I'm immensely proud of Harry for the naming of his second son.

Agreed, I'm proud that Harry did that, too. After Voldemort's defeat, Harry likely spent a fair amount of time reflecting on the roles that Snape & Dumbledore played in his life, trying to truly understand them and the events & choices that defined each man. Harry's compassion was always quick to surface even in his youth, despite his feelings of dislike or those he considered adversaries, but real understanding only comes with truth, effort and time.

Carrying a discussion over from the Snape and Dumbledore thread, because what I want to say is more about Harry...

I think where I differ from you, is that I think one cannot compare how Harry felt about Snape, to how he felt about Dumbledore in the middle of DH. Was he saddened, disappointed, frustrated, and at times even angry at the mess he felt Dumbledore had left him in? Yes, surely, but I felt he was also still giving him the benefit of the doubt, since he was dead and not able to explain himself.

I felt there was a qualitative change in his feelings about Dumbledore after he saw Snape's memories, and concluded (incorrectly, but in line with what Dumbledore told Snape) that Dumbledore had been planning for Harry's death at Voldemort's hand all along, and lying to him to make him think he had a chance to survive. Only then did it really become personal for Harry. Whereas of course Harry had strong personal reasons to hate Snape, the "murderer" of Dumbledore, and the man who sent Voldemort after Harry in the first place.

Ahhh...see, I do not compare them. I merely compared them at the same time for the sake of the other thread ;)

I do agree with what you said...mostly (at least about Snape). However, it seems that I am the only one who seems to think that Harry did not give Dumbledore the benefit of the doubt. :lol: I think Harry's anger at Dumbledore had more to do with the fact that he thought Dumbledore deliberately failed to tell Harry about DD's past (which Harry thought would only have led to a greater understanding between them since they had so much in common - both losing their families in Godric's Hollow). I think that Harry also felt betrayed by Dumbledore and Harry was appalled at Dumbledore's past. When Hermione tries to explain to Harry that Dumbledore was young (trying to excuse his relationship with Grindewald), Harry replies that he is also young and he would never dream of doing things Dumbledore once thought of doing (ruling Muggles).

While I actually agree with Hermione rather than Harry, I think that Harry's anger at Dumbledore has so much more to do with just leaving him stuck in the mess of trying to find/destroy horcruxes. I guess I saw Harry's anger at Dumbledore begin all the way back at Bill/Fleur's wedding, build after he read the Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore, and then climax as he found out about the Deathly Hallows. I think his anger actually subsided because of Snape's memories. Without Snape's memories, I do not believe he would have been as accepting of Dumbledore at King's Cross.

Of course, I may very well be wrong! But that's just my humble opinion :whistle:

However, it seems that I am the only one who seems to think that Harry did not give Dumbledore the benefit of the doubt. I think Harry's anger at Dumbledore had more to do with the fact that he thought Dumbledore deliberately failed to tell Harry about DD's past (which Harry thought would only have led to a greater understanding between them since they had so much in common - both losing their families in Godric's Hollow). I think that Harry also felt betrayed by Dumbledore and Harry was appalled at Dumbledore's past. When Hermione tries to explain to Harry that Dumbledore was young (trying to excuse his relationship with Grindewald), Harry replies that he is also young and he would never dream of doing things Dumbledore once thought of doing (ruling Muggles).I think perhaps Harry was a bit more angry with Dumbledore because Dumbledore was someone he admired and someone who cared for him, and someone who he cared about. Sometimes people are harder on the ones they care about or have a good relationship with because they expect more or better of them. I think that explains why Harry might have been hard on Dumbledore for wanting to rule over muggles when he was young, and why he didn't really focus on the fact that as a young man Snape joined a group that wanted to kill/oppress muggles (because Harry would also never have thought of joining the Death Eaters either).

I do think Harry eventually forgave Dumbledore, as he did Snape. Harry's capacity for forgiveness is a wonderful trait, and I think it stems from the fact that he is a very humble person. Having grown up with next to nothing may have contributed to his humbleness, but the fact that he maintains it throughout the series says to me that it is an integral part of who he is.

[QUOTE=RemusLupinFan;5829924]I think perhaps Harry was a bit more angry with Dumbledore because Dumbledore was someone he admired and someone who cared for him, and someone who he cared about. Sometimes people are harder on the ones they care about or have a good relationship with because they expect more or better of them. I think that explains why Harry might have been hard on Dumbledore for wanting to rule over muggles when he was young, and why he didn't really focus on the fact that as a young man Snape joined a group that wanted to kill/oppress muggles (because Harry would also never have thought of joining the Death Eaters either).

I have to agree with you here. Harry was hurt much more by what he saw as Dumbledore's betrayel than by anything Snape did because he loved Dumbledore. It is the betrayels by thise that we love the most, that hurt the most. We see this in several betrayels in the books, Snape when he calls Lily 'Mudblood', and Peter whe he betrays James and Lily. What made these betrayels so terrible was that fact that it was a so called friend who did the betraying.


I do think Harry eventually forgave Dumbledore, as he did Snape. Harry's capacity for forgiveness is a wonderful trait, and I think it stems from the fact that he is a very humble person. Having grown up with next to nothing may have contributed to his humbleness, but the fact that he maintains it throughout the series says to me that it is an integral part of who he is

Harry has a large capacity for forgiveness. I think it is because he had a large capacity to put himself in the other's place. He didn't think about how that person responded to offense, he thought about how he would respond to offense, which was to get angry, calm down, think it over and then move on. As he did carry not grudges, he forgave.

Harry's capacity for forgiveness is a wonderful trait, and I think it stems from the fact that he is a very humble person. Having grown up with next to nothing may have contributed to his humbleness, but the fact that he maintains it throughout the series says to me that it is an integral part of who he is.

While I agree that Harry's capacity for forgiveness if a wonderful trait I'm not so sure that it stems from his being 'a very humble person' at least not after the first book - do you have any cannon, or are you thinking of any specific occasions - I'd like to understand where you're coming from a bit better. :)

Harry has a large capacity for forgiveness. I think it is because he had a large capacity to put himself in the other's place. He didn't think about how that person responded to offense, he thought about how he would respond to offense, which was to get angry, calm down, think it over and then move on. As he did carry not grudges, he forgave.


Eliza - same question really for the same reasons! You cite Harry's ability 'to put himself in the other's place' as the root cause for his forgivness - do you have any cannon, or are you thinking of any specific occasions - just want to understand your point better :)

While I actually agree with Hermione rather than Harry, I think that Harry's anger at Dumbledore has so much more to do with just leaving him stuck in the mess of trying to find/destroy horcruxes. I guess I saw Harry's anger at Dumbledore begin all the way back at Bill/Fleur's wedding, build after he read the Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore, and then climax as he found out about the Deathly Hallows. I think his anger actually subsided because of Snape's memories. Without Snape's memories, I do not believe he would have been as accepting of Dumbledore at King's Cross.

Of course, I may very well be wrong! But that's just my humble opinion :whistle:

I think Harry's anger at Dumbledore goes back further than Bill & Fleur's wedding. He is angry at Dumbledore for being killed. He believes that Dumbledore trusted the wrong man - i.e., that trusting Snape is what got Dumbledore killed. Of course, we (and Harry) later learn that Dumbledore actually set his own death in motion by falling prey to the Deathly Hallows temptation from his youth, leading him to put on the ring horcrux.

At any rate, Harry imo begins to get angry when he realizes that Dumbledore is not all-knowing and all-wise - which occurs on the very night Dumbledore is killed. But the irony is that while Harry's conclusion is correct, he arrives at it for the wrong reasons (and in fairness, his reasons do look sound on the surface. Snape did kill Dumbledore).

Harry discovers the real reasons later, and those real reasons focus on Dumbledore's own past - i.e., providing material and intellectual support for a future Dark Lord. And then his anger mounts. But he eventually arrives at the same conclusion as Hermione and decides that Dumbledore changed and that he himself should follow the trail of Horcruxes, not the Hallows.

A friend of mine reckons a trait of Harry's is arrogance, but I'm having a hard time thinking of many examples of this. Can any of you think of instances in the stories where Harry is arrogant or conceded, or any instances that could be construed or considered as such?

A friend of mine reckons a trait of Harry's is arrogance, but I'm having a hard time thinking of many examples of this. Can any of you think of instances in the stories where Harry is arrogant or conceded, or any instances that could be construed or considered as such?

Not really, most of the time he was too busy trying to stay alive.

A friend of mine reckons a trait of Harry's is arrogance, but I'm having a hard time thinking of many examples of this. Can any of you think of instances in the stories where Harry is arrogant or conceded, or any instances that could be construed or considered as such?

In my opinion, almost the entire book Order of the Phoenix, in which Harry believes that he knows better than everybody else - including Dumbledore, Sirius, Remus, and Severus - about his need to learn Occlumency. Harry believes that he will unlock some great secret by unlocking the door to the Department of Mysteries in his dreams, and so he ignores everybody's warnings and advice, refuses to practice Occlumency, and falls right into Voldemort's trap.

In fairness, though, Harry is 15. He handles himself much better when he's 17.

A friend of mine reckons a trait of Harry's is arrogance, but I'm having a hard time thinking of many examples of this. Can any of you think of instances in the stories where Harry is arrogant or conceded, or any instances that could be construed or considered as such?
Do you mean "conceited"? No, I wouldn't call it that, but several times he is convinced he is right and it gets him into trouble. For instance, in Book One he is just sure that Snape is trying to steal the Stone, when really it is Quirrelmort. Then in CoS, he jumps into the Chamber of Secrets without a plan for saving Ginny. In Order of the Phoenix he leads all of his friends to the Department of Mysteries, and then immediately regrets putting them in so much danger.

He has alot of confidence in his own judgment which could be seen as arrogance, I guess. Or you can see it as the "hero thingy" that makes him jump from the frying pan into the fire.

In Half-Blood Prince, Harry uses the Sectumsempra spell on Draco even though he doesn't know what it does. To me that's one of his biggest mistakes, along with doing the Crucio in anger on Bellatrix and one of the Carrows. For me that was crossing a line, and he's not that sorry about any of it, but on the other hand that might have been the horcrux messing with his mind. You get the feeling at the end of the books that adult Harry would never do any of those things.

For me that was crossing a line, and he's not that sorry about any of it, but on the other hand that might have been the horcrux messing with his mind. You get the feeling at the end of the books that adult Harry would never do any of those things.

I agree (but I don't think we should blame the Horcrux. It affected him, but IMO in an external way, as a bad circumstance affects someone. It hurt, it showed him things, etc. but it did not force him to act contrary to his own will). I think the difference is that in DH, Harry grew up. One reason I love that exchange (quoted above) between Hermione and Harry, in which Harry scoffs at the "but he was young" excuse. :D

I do think Harry eventually forgave Dumbledore, as he did Snape. Harry's capacity for forgiveness is a wonderful trait

Yes, Harry does have an amazing capacity to forgive. He forgives Ron for Ron's jealousy in both GoF and for leaving in DH. He forgives Dumbledore. He forgives Snape. He even in the end feels sorry for Draco Malfoy. But I guess I am not convinced it stems from Harry's humbleness. I do not always see Harry as humble. I guess I am quibbling over a small thing because I do agree with you, just perhaps not the word you are using....:hmm:

I think Harry's anger at Dumbledore goes back further than Bill & Fleur's wedding. He is angry at Dumbledore for being killed.

Ahhh...yes, thanks for catching that! Great point, I was just considering the events from DH because of the discussion that my point stemmed from, but yes, I agree with you.

A friend of mine reckons a trait of Harry's is arrogance, but I'm having a hard time thinking of many examples of this. Can any of you think of instances in the stories where Harry is arrogant or conceded, or any instances that could be construed or considered as such?

Perhaps not conceited, but Harry is definitely reckless at times. He is impulsive and acts before he thinks. He acts on inaccurate or incomplete information in just about every book in the series.

In fairness, though, Harry is 15. He handles himself much better when he's 17.
:huh: I am not so sure. Harry handled himself better with the Hallows vs. Horcrux decision, but more so because he had not yet put all of the pieces together and did not yet know where to go to look for them. I think if Harry had known the locations of the other two hallows upon learning about them, he would have gone after them. But, Dumbledore made it difficult because he knew Harry was impulsive.

I also see Harry commit the same faults as he did in OotP when tracking down the last of the horcruxes. Harry continues to look into Voldemort's mind to know what he is up to. I know at times, it seems as if Harry cannot control it, but he can block it out. When Dobby dies, it is grief (or love) that keeps Voldemort's thoughts at bay and allows Harry to focus on the present (just as in OotP, it was his grief/love of Sirius that drove Voldemort from possessing him). Much like in OotP, I feel that Harry actually wants to know what Voldemort is doing.

When Harry sees the location of the horcruxes flash through Voldemort's thoughts, Harry immediately insists that they go to Hogwarts. While I do think it was necessary, once again, he rushes off without thinking about the consequences or considering the truth of these thoughts. (While we can assume logically that Voldemort's thoughts were accurate because all of the other locations Harry saw were locations Harry knew had contained horcruxes, it IS still possible that Voldemort could have lied. Harry never even stops to consider it). It was a necessity, but I still see the same impulsiveness, same rashness, same desire to disregard the need for Occlumency in DH. It works to Harry's advantage here because it was true, but it also cost many people their lives (again, I know, it was necessary :lol: )

I do think Harry eventually forgave Dumbledore, as he did Snape. Harry's capacity for forgiveness is a wonderful trait, and I think it stems from the fact that he is a very humble person. Having grown up with next to nothing may have contributed to his humbleness, but the fact that he maintains it throughout the series says to me that it is an integral part of who he is.

I don't agree that Harry is humble. I think he is able to forgive because he is generous. Which is different from being humble.

Like Dumbledore, I too see young Harry as a 'modest and teachable child', in Book 1. After that, I still like Harry (he's my favourite character besides Snape) but after that, I honestly see very little humility in Harry. I don't mean that he is vain, or conceited. :) And he is also somewhat emotionally damaged, due to his abusive background. But he does grow in confidence and yes, he can be arrogant and reckless.

In Half-Blood Prince, Harry uses the Sectumsempra spell on Draco even though he doesn't know what it does. To me that's one of his biggest mistakes, along with doing the Crucio in anger on Bellatrix and one of the Carrows. For me that was crossing a line, and he's not that sorry about any of it, but on the other hand that might have been the horcrux messing with his mind.

The more I think about it, the more that 'Crucio' really bothers me. :grumble: It's certainly Harry's lowest point for me, morally. Incapacitate Carrow, sure! Read Carrow the riot act, sure! Shout at Carrow for insulting Minerva, yeah, fine. But torture Carrow? :huh: -- a big, fat no. :no:

What bothers me is not JKR showing Harry behaving in a dubious moral manner. People on the good side in war can do very morally dubious things. That is the horrid nature of war. No, what bothers me is the feeling that it was perfectly OK for him to do this to Carrow because he is the hero. :td:

Maybe that is not what JKR intended, though.

You get the feeling at the end of the books that adult Harry would never do any of those things.

Totally agree. :tu:

The more I think about it, the more that 'Crucio' really bothers me. :grumble: It's certainly Harry's lowest point for me, morally. Incapacitate Carrow, sure! Read Carrow the riot act, sure! Shout at Carrow for insulting Minerva, yeah, fine. But torture Carrow? :huh: -- a big, fat no. :no:

What bothers me is not JKR showing Harry behaving in a dubious moral manner. People on the good side in war can do very morally dubious things. That is the horrid nature of war. No, what bothers me is the feeling that it was perfectly OK for him to do this to Carrow because he is the hero. :td:

Maybe that is not what JKR intended, though.


That isn't what I took way from that. I think we're seeing the stress Harry's under, not to mention he's extremely sleep-deprived at this point. What Harry learns about the Carrows' treatment of students from Neville, plus the fact that Amycus was ready to tell Voldemort the students were to blame so they'd get killed instead of them -- Harry was holding back a lot of anger, and when Amycus threatened & spit at McGonagall, it made Harry snap. Bad judgement? Yes, no doubt. He wanted to give Carrow a taste of own medicine. Not Harry's best moment, but certainly a very human one.

I don't think people think it's OK that Harry did that, and certainly not because he's the hero of the story. I think readers identify with Harry and understand all he's gone through, and what lies ahead in the final battle, the missing horcrux & the problem of Nagini. That's a lot for a 17-year old to carry. And while I agree that it was, as McGonagall said, foolish of him to do, I completely understand it. I also know Harry well enough to know that it was not typical of him, and would never happen again.

Perhaps modest is more the word I was looking for rather than humble. What I was getting at is that Harry doesn't really consider himself as being special (especially at the beginning) - he doesn't see himself as being entitled to privileges just because of his role in defeating Voldemort.

Actually I'm not quite sure what I was thinking when I posted that Harry's ability to forgive was tied to humility/modesty. :hmm: I do think it's more to do with his generosity and the capacity to give others a second chance.

On the subject of forgiveness - I wonder if Harry ever forgave Peter Pettigrew for betraying his parents.

I don't think the objecting readers feel Harry's Crucio was foolish. Or gallant, for that matter. These are the only two ways it is characterized. :)

Harry chooses, not out of fear, or self defense, or to protect others, but out of anger, to torture another person. The idea that this specific action by Harry is morally wrong is not stated explicitly anywhere in the text. Not in a reflection by Harry on his action, and not by any witness to it. This is what people are wanting, and not getting,about this scene.

It is one of numerous such actions by 'good' characters throughout the books, in my view. And many of those actions are never condemned by anyone. Personally, I don't think the book is saying these actions are OK. This silence exists because the 'good' characters in this book are far from perfect, so they may not condemn their own actions or the actions of friends and allies.

Why do I nonetheless think Harry is not likely to do such a thing again? Because in the end, he extends Voldemort himself mercy.

Why do I nonetheless think Harry is not likely to do such a thing again? Because in the end, he extends Voldemort himself mercy.

Actually, I think the reason Harry is able to extend Voldemort mercy is that he has been transformed by the Pensieve memories, and by his decision to sacrifice his life - which leads him into the cycle of rebirth.

I think that the Harry who crucio'd Amycus was quite likely to do it again. He'd already tried it before. And this time it worked.

But the Harry who returns from Kings Cross is a transformed person - able to extend mercy even to Voldemort himself. And I agree that transformed Harry is not likely to use a crucio ever again.

I think that the Harry who crucio'd Amycus was quite likely to do it again. He'd already tried it before. And this time it worked.

But the Harry who returns from Kings Cross is a transformed person - able to extend mercy even to Voldemort himself. And I agree that transformed Harry is not likely to use a crucio ever again.

Yes and notice that when he used it on Amycus, Harry really meant it because he actually did Amycus harm. The Harry who tried to Crucio Bellatrix did not have the right type of anger.

Bellatrix states:


"Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy....You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain--to enjoy it--righteous anger won't hurt me for long."

Compare that to the scene in DH: Harry watches Amycus thrash and howl in pain. Harry remarks, "I see what Bellatrix meant...you neeed to really mean it."

The two Harrys that used these curses were two very different people. Perhaps we can say that the 15-year-old Harry was inexperienced and the 17-year-old Harry was more embittered, battle-worn. Or perhaps that after all he had been through, 17-year-old Harry knew what it was like to truly feel anger and hate and relish in someone's pain. Harry had definitely changed.

ccollinsmith, I like how you referred to Harry's transformation in King's Cross as a "rebirth." Harry underwent a fundamental change (as if he were cleansed) in King's Cross. He returns out of choice and with a better understanding of both who he is and who Voldemort is.

]Perhaps modest is more the word I was looking for rather than humble. What I was getting at is that Harry doesn't really consider himself as being special (especially at the beginning) - he doesn't see himself as being entitled to privileges just because of his role in defeating Voldemort.

Actually I'm not quite sure what I was thinking when I posted that Harry's ability to forgive was tied to humility/modesty. I do think it's more to do with his generosity and the capacity to give others a second chance

No worries about the wording. Sometimes it's hard to get the exact word you are looking for. And the same word came have different meaning to different people. ;)

You are right, Harry is modest in the sense that he does not enjoy the spotlight that he endures for most of his school days. He also does not brag about his accomplishments. When first meeting with the DADA club in OotP, he seems rather embarrassed by everyone talking about what he has done.

But I think you got it right on your second...er...third try? :whistle: :lol:

Harry does have a capacity to forgive. He forgives his friends easily. But I think how he treats those that are NOT his friends is even more important to his character. He chooses to treat others with humanity. He still tells the Dursleys "bye" even when they refuse to acknowledge him at the beginning of every school year (well except maybe books 2 and 3). He knows what Wormtail did to his parents and yet wanted to take him to Azkaban rather than have Sirius and Lupin kill him. He gives Voldemort the chance to show remorse. I find it very remarkable that he is able to do these things given the amount of pain all of these people have caused him.

Harry does have a capacity to forgive. He forgives his friends easily. But I think how he treats those that are NOT his friends is even more important to his character. He chooses to treat others with humanity. He still tells the Dursleys "bye" even when they refuse to acknowledge him at the beginning of every school year (well except maybe books 2 and 3). He knows what Wormtail did to his parents and yet wanted to take him to Azkaban rather than have Sirius and Lupin kill him. He gives Voldemort the chance to show remorse. I find it very remarkable that he is able to do these things given the amount of pain all of these people have caused him.

Yes; and he is horrified when he sees what the sectumsempra curse does to Draco, and risks his life to save Draco in the Room of Requirement in DH. He's even compelled to go to Snape's side as Snape is dying, without understanding why...but I think it's out of compassion although Harry can't quite wrap his brain around it because he always saw Snape as his enemy; true understanding comes later, when Harry actually tells Voldemort about Snape's actions and motivations.

Perhaps modest is more the word I was looking for rather than humble. What I was getting at is that Harry doesn't really consider himself as being special (especially at the beginning) - he doesn't see himself as being entitled to privileges just because of his role in defeating Voldemort.

Actually I'm not quite sure what I was thinking when I posted that Harry's ability to forgive was tied to humility/modesty. :hmm: I do think it's more to do with his generosity and the capacity to give others a second chance.

Thanks RLF - That makes more sense to me especially, as you say, early on. :)

I'm not sure how well that lasts - but then again with everyone acting they way they did around him that's hardly surprising! And I agree I think he can be very generous when he wants to be.

I'm not sure how well that lasts - but then again with everyone acting they way they did around him that's hardly surprising! And I agree I think he can be very generous when he wants to be.


That made me think of something: Harry obviously changed from the doe-eyed innocent 11-year-old throughout the series. He became more seasoned, lost his innocence, and became more confident in himself and his decisions. Soo....

Do you think that Harry grew to expect special (not necessarily preferential) treatment as he went through Hogwarts? By that, I mean, did he expect to be treated leniently for breaking the rules because he knew he was fighting a noble cause (e.g. Voldemort)?

Harry is very impulsive and has a tendancy to believe that he is in the right. He does not often acknowledge when he does something wrong. I am not saying he has never been ashamed of some of his actions, but he continously gets away with breaking school rules that other students would never get away with.

So is there a double standard when it comes to Harry because he is the "chosen one" and Dumbledore knew it?

That made me think of something: Harry obviously changed from the doe-eyed innocent 11-year-old throughout the series. He became more seasoned, lost his innocence, and became more confident in himself and his decisions. Soo....

Do you think that Harry grew to expect special (not necessarily preferential) treatment as he went through Hogwarts? By that, I mean, did he expect to be treated leniently for breaking the rules because he knew he was fighting a noble cause (e.g. Voldemort)?

Harry is very impulsive and has a tendancy to believe that he is in the right. He does not often acknowledge when he does something wrong. I am not saying he has never been ashamed of some of his actions, but he continously gets away with breaking school rules that other students would never get away with.

So is there a double standard when it comes to Harry because he is the "chosen one" and Dumbledore knew it?


The only people Harry ever seemed to act like he deserved different treatment towards, was Ron and Hermione a few times. He thought it with regard to Dumbledore... But or the most part he was a pretty humble guy because of how he was treated for the first 11 years of his life.

He did get some special treatment. But, everytime, it seemed to be under special circumstances.

He did get some special treatment. But, everytime, it seemed to be under special circumstances.

But it's nothing Harry sought himself. So I think that speaks to the situation(s) Harry finds himself in (or ones he's forced into by Voldemort or other issues), not his state of mind.

That made me think of something: Harry obviously changed from the doe-eyed innocent 11-year-old throughout the series. He became more seasoned, lost his innocence, and became more confident in himself and his decisions. Soo....

That’s pretty much my point added to which is the preferential treatment he receives.

Do you think that Harry grew to expect special (not necessarily preferential) treatment as he went through Hogwarts? By that, I mean, did he expect to be treated leniently for breaking the rules because he knew he was fighting a noble cause (e.g. Voldemort)?

Good question and I have to say (of the top of my head) I’d probably answer with a ‘Yes’. Why?

He expects to be able to talk to the Headmaster whenever he wants to whether he is at school or not – this is not normal for a school child or any other Hogwarts student as far as I can see.

In PoA He shows has no real regard for the fact that teachers, ministry officials and family of his friends (aka – those who will late recognised as members of the Order) are all trying to protect him. And while it is proper that a target of a DE is given some protection none seems to be offered to others when Bella & co are broken out of Azkaban and it doesn’t occur to Harry (or anyone else apparently?!) that this may not be quite ‘fair’ (sorry I’m sure that there is a better way of putting it but the word escapes me atm. :))

He only complains about preferential treatment given to others being unfair – when he benefits from it he doesn’t for moment consider it unfair. (look at his reaction to McGonagall not giving his class homework so that he & his house team could have more practice time for a quiditch match as a example)

As I said this is of the top of my head – so its by no means exhaustive but I can’t help feeling that he does expect to be treated differently – I think he gets used to being ‘the chosen one’ as starts to normalise the positive aspect of its impact.

Harry is very impulsive and has a tendency to believe that he is in the right. He does not often acknowledge when he does something wrong. I am not saying he has never been ashamed of some of his actions, but he continuously gets away with breaking school rules that other students would never get away with.

I can see how this behaviour would be seen as similar to his father, with all the high jinks/trouble making that the marauders got up to, perhaps a part of the reason Lupin makes the comparison? :hmm:

But it's nothing Harry sought himself. So I think that speaks to the situation(s) Harry finds himself in (or ones he's forced into by Voldemort or other issues), not his state of mind.

I think in some cases you're right but I also think that there are tiems when Harry is the author of his own trouble - one exampel that springs to mind is in PoA. Mr Weasley specifically asks Harry not to go chasing after Sirius Black and Harry answers soemthing like 'why would I do that?' To me the answer is the same tas the reason that Mr Weasly made the request in the smae place - Harry does act rashly and it si very easily possible that he would rush off to confront a known killer who is now targetting him. I could even go as far as to say that Mr Weasly's fears are proven to be well founded as Harry does do exatly what Authur asked him not to do - and I don't think we can say that this is the fault of Voldemort. :)

He only complains about preferential treatment given to others being unfair – when he benefits from it he doesn’t for moment consider it unfair. (look at his reaction to McGonagall not giving his class homework so that he & his house team could have more practice time for a quiditch match as a example)

But that's preferential treatment based on him being part of the Quidditch team, not on account of him being the chosen one. And it is far from unusual that pupils competing in school competitions are cut some slack, in my view. They are competing for the school/their house after all. Same with the Triwizard tournament. Of course Harry and Cedric were allowed to do things the other students weren't allowed.

I can see how this behaviour would be seen as similar to his father, with all the high jinks/trouble making that the marauders got up to, perhaps a part of the reason Lupin makes the comparison? :hmm::)

What's funny to me is that I don't see much of Harry's behavior to be at all similar to his father's. James snuck around the castle to steal food from the kitchens, or prowl around with his friends, etc. He comes across more like the Weasley twins. Harry sneaks around the school to keep the stone from being stolen, to save Hagrid from being kicked out for raising an illegal dragon, or to solve the riddle of the egg... Basically whatever he has to do to stop Voldemort from coming back to power, or to help a friend. It was always about serving others that Harry was interested in doing things that would be viewed as against the rules. This was very unlike James in my opinion.

I believe Dumbledore said that Harry's inner nature was more akin to his mother rather than his father. He was more soft-hearted, he was definitely not a bully, and he had a lot of willpower. I agree that James's personality seems more like Fred's and George's, though we do see Harry display James's signature disregard for the rules.

I am actually very surprised by this vote. I thought love (aka compassion) would be the most powerful trait any wizard could have. I don't think it was bravery I think it was he cared so much about people around him that he would do anything for them. Just like in OOtP when Voldemort was possessing Harry the reason he was able to break away was because of the compassion he had for his friends and people around him.

What's funny to me is that I don't see much of Harry's behavior to be at all similar to his father's. James snuck around the castle to steal food from the kitchens, or prowl around with his friends, etc. He comes across more like the Weasley twins. Harry sneaks around the school to keep the stone from being stolen, to save Hagrid from being kicked out for raising an illegal dragon, or to solve the riddle of the egg... Basically whatever he has to do to stop Voldemort from coming back to power, or to help a friend. It was always about serving others that Harry was interested in doing things that would be viewed as against the rules. This was very unlike James in my opinion.

I agree. When Sirius wants to move close to Hogwarts in GOF, Harry discourages him, noting that he could even be caught in his animagus form. Sirius is caught off guard and says the risk is what always made it fun. It's obvious that sometimes Harry acts a bit recklessly, but overall Harry is much more like his mother than his father in my opinion.

I believe he is like both his parents but slightly more like Lily. He was very loyal to his friends (James is a very loyal and caring friend, he went so far as to transform himself into an animagus) and was trusting. He is also heroic and risked his life to save an enemy (Saving Draco in the room of requirement/ James saving Snape in the Shrieking Shack). He also had a knack for trouble. He was compassionate like both his parents. And mature like Lily. Harry seems to be able to befriend all sorts of people and was able to stand up for people who were considered losers.

I am actually very surprised by this vote. I thought love (aka compassion) would be the most powerful trait any wizard could have. I don't think it was bravery I think it was he cared so much about people around him that he would do anything for them. Just like in OOtP when Voldemort was possessing Harry the reason he was able to break away was because of the compassion he had for his friends and people around him.

I was surprised too, but for a different reason. I thought the one trait that was really indicative of Harry's character was his loyalty. First to his parents, then friends, then to the school and Dumbledore. He certainly has the ability to love, especially in the face of the beginning of hi life... But his loyalty never wavers unless the people he is loyal to waver first.

But his loyalty never wavers unless the people he is loyal to waver first.

I think Harry is very loyal too. Even if people he is loyal to waver, he is loyal to them. He never let go of Ron, even when Ron let him down in GOF and later on in DH, when Harry needed him the most IMO.

I think Harry is very loyal too. Even if people he is loyal to waver, he is loyal to them. He never let go of Ron, even when Ron let him down in GOF and later on in DH, when Harry needed him the most IMO.

That was actually the scene I was thinking of when I wrote that :)

But while I got the feeling that Harry had chucked Ron as a friend then, he took him right back as soon as Ron apologized.

But while I got the feeling that Harry had chucked Ron as a friend then, he took him right back as soon as Ron apologized.

I wouldn't say that Harry chucked Ron as a friend. I think it's just that Harry (in both incidents) believed that he was doing the right thing and that Ron was the one who'd made a mistake, and should've turned back and appologised. In both DH and GoF, Harry realises how much he misses Ron and how much he needs him around, so I think it indicates that Harry never ceased to appreciate what a valuable friend Ron is to him. It's just his conviction that he didn't do anything wrong, that held him back from appologising in GoF (and in DH, Harry couldn't have found him if he wanted to).

I am not usually a fan of Snape but in this case he was 100% correct.

"What would your head have been doing in Hogsmeade, Potter?" said Snape softly. "Your head is not allowed in Hogsmeade. No part of your body has permission to be in Hogsmeade."

"I know that," said Harry, striving to keep his face free of guilt or fear. "It sounds like Malfoy's having hallucin —"

"Malfoy is not having hallucinations," snarled Snape, and he bent down, a hand on each arm of Harry's chair, so that their faces were a foot apart. "If your head was in Hogsmeade, so was the rest of you."

"I've been up in Gryffindor Tower," said Harry. "Like you told —"

"Can anyone confirm that?"

Harry didn't say anything. Snape's thin mouth curled into a horrible smile.

"So," he said, straightening up again. "Everyone from the Minister of Magic downward has been trying to keep famous Harry Potter safe from Sirius Black. But famous Harry Potter is a law unto himself. Let the ordinary people worry about his safety! Famous Harry Potter goes where he wants to, with no thought for the consequences."

Harry stayed silent. Snape was trying to provoke him into telling the truth. He wasn't going to do it. Snape had no proof — yet.

"How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter," Snape said suddenly, his eyes glinting. "He too was exceedingly arrogant. A small amount of talent on the Quidditch field made him think he was a cut above the rest of us too. Strutting around the place with his friends and admirers… The resemblance between you is uncanny."

"My dad didn't strut," said Harry, before he could stop himself. "And neither do I."

"Your father didn't set much store by rules either," Snape went on, pressing his advantage, his thin face full of malice. "Rules were for lesser mortals, not Quidditch Cup-winners. His head was so swollen —"

"SHUT UP!"

Harry was suddenly on his feet. Rage such as he had not felt since his last night in Privet Drive was coursing through him. He didn't care that Snape's face had gone rigid, the black eyes flashing dangerously.

I am not usually a fan of Snape but in this case he was 100% correct.

I don't agree. I think his insults about his version of Harry's dad were totally out of line for someone in a position of authority, and completely missed the point and undermined his authority in the matter, and his accusations about Harry's motives were offbase. Once it became a personal insult fest against Harry and James it became a total waste of an endeavor, in my opinion. In this case, I think Lupin was 100% correct in his talk with Harry later, both in assessing the situation and getting Harry to understand how wrong what he did was. I think Harry was far more likely to take heed of someone who was accurate in their assessments of what was going on.

I don't agree. I think his insults about his version of Harry's dad were totally out of line for someone in a position of authority, and completely missed the point and undermined his authority in the matter, and his accusations about Harry's motives were offbase. Once it became a personal insult fest against Harry and James it became a total waste of an endeavor, in my opinion. In this case, I think Lupin was 100% correct in his talk with Harry later, both in assessing the situation and getting Harry to understand how wrong what he did was. I think Harry was far more likely to take heed of someone who was accurate in their assessments of what was going on.

I think you're right. Even disregarding Snape's inappropriate comments, the way to make Harry listen is to make him think, not make him angry. I think it's ironic that for all the times Snape tells Harry to control himself, he then contradicts that by saying things he knows will make it impossible for Harry to do so.

Even disregarding Snape's inappropriate comments, the way to make Harry listen is to make him think, not make him angry.I also agree. Which is probably one of the reasons why Harry listens to Lupin when he tells him off. Lupin explains why Harry's actions were foolish, and Harry takes this to heart because he feels bad for disappointing Lupin (if I recall, the text says he felt worse about his actions after speaking with Lupin than he did at any point in Snape's office). I think it's ironic that for all the times Snape tells Harry to control himself, he then contradicts that by saying things he knows will make it impossible for Harry to do so.That's a good point, I agree. In general though, I don't think Harry is very good at controlling his anger or keeping it inside, even early on. This is both a good thing and a bad thing. It's good in that his righteous anger can spur him into action that saves lives; it's bad in that he has a tendency to act upon his anger without thinking things through. In the first book, Harry gets angry at Draco when he steals Neville's Remembrall, such that he ignores Madame Hooch's warning of expulsion and gets up on his broom anyway. But what makes Harry the angriest are insults made against his parents - to the point where he performs uncontrolled magic against Aunt Marge. I think this effectively demonstrates how strong his anger was.

Along a similar vein, I think the fact that Harry's anger/emotions are usually pretty close to the surface and the fact that he usually doesn't keep them bottled inside may have been factors contributing to his inability to learn Occlumency.

This is something i have thought about in the past and have always felt that JKR kind of stuffed up on in regards to Harry's personality.

We see the way Harry is treated by the Dursley's and other than a bit of anger management issues Harry doesn't seem to have any real negative personality traits based on how he was abused as a child. Now i am no child psychologist but should Harry be more affected by the years of abuse than he is because in the first book Harry seems to act almost like a normal 11 year old boy despite the fact he was treated so badly.

Does anyone else think it was a flaw in JKR's writing that Harry was raised by the Dursley's and yet his personality was largely undamaged by them or do you think i am making mountains out of mole hills. Also if you agree with me how should Harry's personality have been changed to make it more realistic?

I don't normally repost things but it was a longish post and I think it answers this question fairly well ( at least from certain developmental theories stand point.

Harry had 15 month of excellent parenting (not to mention the network that surrounded the Potters) before he lived with the Dursley’s. By this point he would have already negotiated several very important psychological hurdles. I would expect him to have dealt with the ‘Basic trust v Basic mistrust’ stage which means that he is able do deal with the both the ideas, and the practice of basic trust & basic mistrust. This itself would make a massive difference as Harry is now capable of using both of these in an appropriate manner[…]. Harry while he is living at the Dursley’s is approached by random strangers who treat him warmly & once he finds out he is a wizard his life is revolutionised. Suddenly he goes into a world where is not poor, where he is cared for, watched over and loved. […]

But the key thing that that differentiates them is Lily’s spell; the beauty of which takes my breath away.

In the conversation that started this, I mentioned both James & Snape; say that they had a different level of ‘psychological robustness’ due to their childhood. James is IMO psychologically robust there are two different ways one could talk about this in technical terms one is to say he has a ‘secure attachment’ the other is to say that he has ‘successfully introjected his mother’ - both of these statements comedown to how James has managed to take the idea of his mother, the love & security he gets from her and integrate it into his own psyche. (this is an oversimplification of course – but I hope the gist of it is there & makes sense) This idea also encompasses the way parental love is modelled in the child’s mind in such a way that the child can be suffused with love from that parent even when the parent is absent.

This process takes time and goes through different stages, becoming more abstract as time goes by allowing the experience of parental love to be turned into a model of how to love & be loved.

What is remarkable, to me at any rate, is that Harry shows every sign of having achieved this – despite not having had a relationship with his parents, or a loving substitute. At first, I must admit, this made no sense to me; in fact it rankled a little that JKR had done something so far from being true to human experience - a quality she seemed to be able to give to every other character. I was annoyed! But then I started to learn about Lily’s sacrifice & the magic it created and my annoyance started to diminish. I started to see how JKR had in fact stayed very true the human experience. The clincher, for me, came when DD talked about Lily’s love & her sacrifice being carried in Harry’s blood.

You see Harry did have an ongoing experience of his mothers love, his mothers love was carried to every cell in his being! He is suffuse by it! :love: Part of her magic was to create a successful secure attachment. It is the ultimate introjection; introject meaning to take into oneself. It’s simplicity is it’s beauty.

I suspect that someone will say ‘but I doubt that JKR was looking at it on that kind of psychological level’. I have to say that it really doesn’t matter. A good writer looks for the truth of human experience and tries to imbue her characters with it. Psychological theories are also about understanding truth of human experience. They both have this in common if a writer is trying to be truthful about her characters then good psychological theory is bound to be reflected in their writing.

This is something i have thought about in the past and have always felt that JKR kind of stuffed up on in regards to Harry's personality.

We see the way Harry is treated by the Dursley's and other than a bit of anger management issues Harry doesn't seem to have any real negative personality traits based on how he was abused as a child. Now i am no child psychologist but should Harry be more affected by the years of abuse than he is because in the first book Harry seems to act almost like a normal 11 year old boy despite the fact he was treated so badly.

Does anyone else think it was a flaw in JKR's writing that Harry was raised by the Dursley's and yet his personality was largely undamaged by them or do you think i am making mountains out of mole hills. Also if you agree with me how should Harry's personality have been changed to make it more realistic?


There a quite a few explanations for this.

The first being Harry's nature itself. Harry is a Gryffindor/Slytherin personality for the most part. If he were a Hufflepuff like me, the damage probably would have been more drastic but he was tough and resilent and brave and strong. Like the sword of Gryffindor taking in that which makes it stronger, Harry absorbed his negative experiences and grew and became stronger from it because that's in his nature as a Gryffindor.

Secondly, we cannot compare Harry to an ordinary orphan because Harry is thrust into an extraordinary situation. The pychology could be geunine for all we know since we have no real world frame of reference for a young orphan who grew up with abusive family discovering he's part of a different world and being liberated and rescued from this horrible existance and giving a purpose, a sense of belonging and happiness and also a way to connect to his parets and get to know his parents and follow in their footsteps. Maybe if this happened to your average orphan and he didn't spend his entire childhood into young adulthood in an abusive household and was whisked away to this wonderful world at the age of 11, they woulden't turn out so bad either.

Thirdly, there's the possibility that the Dursleys only started to severely mistreat him at the age of six when he started showing traces of magic. In COS, Harry tells Ron the Dursleys hadn't given him pocket money for 6 years, implying they gave him pocket money before that which also implies that perhaps they were a little more cordial to him in his formative years and only started ignoring him and locking him in his cupboard when he showed signs of being magical. Remember, this is the reason the Dursleys mistreated him, they thought keeping him downtrodden would zap the magic out of him, they were ignorant (Petunia willingfully so).

And lastly, there's the case that Harry was damaged by his experience with the Dursleys and he really was. A normal boy woulden't mistrust adults and defy authority and break rules to the extent Harry did, a normal boy would not be so reckless and careless, nearly sucidial, a normal boy would not be so curious about adult matters, a normal boy would not understand the concept of fighting and dying for the greater good at age 11, a normal boy woulden't have such a saving people thing, a normal boy woulden't be so insular, only keeping to his two cloest friends so so many years and confiding in nobody else, a normal boy would have accepted Romilda Vane's invitation to go see with her and her friends, a normal boy woulden't pass out from the dementers, a normal boy would have a more definitive career idea (Harry all the way through dosen't even contemplate or care about what he wants to do, in OOTP, he just wants to quit school and live with Sirius) and a normal boy woulden't have the need to right wrongs as much as Harry did. It comes from being abused and experiecing horrors and trauma that makes Harry a hero willing to die for the greater good.

Ultimately, as Dumbledore said, Harry is so unique and special because despite enduring unearthly hardships and trauma, Harry is still able to love so strongly and that's what makes him the Boy Who Lived we all know and love.

Thanks for the long reply.


Ultimately, as Dumbledore said, Harry is so unique and special because despite enduring unearthly hardships and trauma, Harry is still able to love so strongly and that's what makes him the Boy Who Lived we all know and love.

This i have always disagreed with as i think when it comes to love Harry is actually very emotionally stunted. I remember him snapping at Ron and Hermione when they bickered and Ron and Hermione looked offended at Harry's outburst (indicating they were actually enjoying the argument) as that little scene tells me that Harry does not deal with conflict well and he tends to think all arguements are bad and can only lead to bad things. To Harry i don't think he can conceive of a argument where both parties are actually enjoying the argument and that neither is going to get upset at the conclusion of said argument.

He also avoids Hermione when he knows he has done something wrong and even lies to her to prevent her finding out as Harry wants to avoid a conflict with her.

Then there were his feelings for Ginny which to me also indicate that he is rather emotionally stunted as he went from viewing Ginny as nothing more than Ron's sister to being in love with her in a very short period of time. Its a bit like Harry's emotions are all over the place.

Then there is how Harry reacts to his friends and their feelings. Now i know it isn't particularly common for teenage boys to get to open about their emotions but Harry i feel is even worse. It takes him forever to realise his feelings for Cho and then Ginny (realising your attracted to someone is not that hard) and Harry seems to have almost no idea about Ron's and Hermione's feelings for one another despite being presented plenty of evidence that they both wanted much more than friendship.

I am gonna get a little brainy and give u my view as someone who studies literature. Hermione and Ron, Harry's two best friends, while they are wonderful characters with their own families and interests and personalities... they are only apart of the story because they represent the duality of Harry Potter himself.

Hermione represents Harry's intellect. They also share their muggle background, so they experience things in almost the same way, where as with Ron he's already used to magic. Hermione represents the truth in Harry. I've always said Hermione knew, probably before Harry did, what his destiny would have to be (killing or being killed by the dark lord). She is THE BEST at magic because she's hungry for it... she embraces what she is and overachieves. She also represents his mother. Muggle born "mudblood", brainy griffindor. She represents his emotional & responsible side.

Ron represents Harry's need-to-be-fun and normal side. Theres a side of Harry that does NOT really care about all the nonsense of the prophecy and the magic of LOVE and all this feeling nonsense. He is the character that neglects intellect (school work, etc, always the last to figure out whats going on) he just wants to be normal and not famous and play quidditch and not have all this thrust upon him by DD. He represents Harry's fear of failure and frustration at not being told the truth. He also represents Harry's father, pureblood but "blood traitor" or non-judgemental griffindor who loves quidditch and his mates and though he's a talented wizard is probably still mediocre in school.

There are sooooo many parallels in the story through situations and characters but I think thats one of the biggest..theres a reason why he gravitated towards and became friends with these two COMPLETELY different people.... they both influence him and help him understand himself.

Harry IS special and unique and he's a hero! He is my favorite character because of everything he has gone through and living and knowing and overcoming and loving... and he does! and he lives :blush:

So essentially you are saying that Harry is Ron's and Hermione's son? :)

From the Snape thread.

I disagree. I do not think that Harry had to feel affection for Snape in order to name his son after him. Indeed the hatred that Harry felt for Snape was based on a lie - the lie being that Snape was working for Voldemort and had murdered Dumbledore added to the handing over of the prophecy which contributed to his parents death. When Harry finds out the truth about Snape he realises that his hatred has been misplaced and based on misinformation. As a Gryffindor Harry values courage above other characteristics and in Harry's opinion Snape was probably the bravest man he ever knew, and I think this is the reason he names his son after him: to honour Snape's courage.
I don't think that Harry perception of Snape's actions was skewed; on the contrary Harry realised that Snape's actions were brave and in the pursuit of right. Snape's insults and snarkiness were something that Harry could overlook as unimportant in the light of the work he was doing for the Order and for the protection of Harry's life.

I don't think Harry's hatred of Snape was based on a lie as far as Snape handing over the Prophecy; that actually happened. I think Harry had plenty of real reasons to dislike Snape as a person, both for Snape's treatment of others and the harm he did during his lifetime. I think Harry probably was very forgiving of things that happened in the past though and didn't feel much like hanging onto grudges. I agree with you about why Harry named his son after Snape-- I think it was for the reason Harry stated, that for some reason Harry thought Snape was probably the bravest man he had known during his year as headmaster.

I agree with you about why Harry named his son after Snape-- I think it was for the reason Harry stated, that for some reason Harry thought Snape was probably the bravest man he had known during his year as headmaster.
This is what Harry said,

Albus Severus..you were named for the two headmasters of Hogwarts. One of them was a Slytherin and he was probably the bravest man I ever knew.

I took that to mean Snape was probably the bravest man he ever knew, period - not just during the time Snape was headmaster. Gryffindors are seen as brave, and he was letting his know that he could be sorted into Slytherin and still be a brave person, because Snape was a Slytherin and probably the bravest man he ever knew. Not only that, Harry named his son after a Slytherin. He was letting his son know it was OK to be sorted into that house.

Because of the context - little Albus was worried about being sorted into Slytherin and not Gryffindor - I'm not sure Harry was telling his son that he named him after Snape because he considered him brave. To me, it's more telling that he named him after both Albus and Severus - I think he was comparing the two men and considering them somewhat equals, with Dumbledore being the greater of the two. Same thing when he named his first son James Sirius - one was his father and the other his godfather. Both Dumbledore and Snape, and James and Sirius were a "team" when they were alive.

People are usually very selective when they choose baby names, I think. Thinking Snape was "brave" would not be enough, IMHO. Heck - he could have named the kid Albus Arthur, or any other combination.

My opinion :)

I took that to mean Snape was probably the bravest man he ever knew, period - not just during the time Snape was headmaster.

When Harry said that he named his son for a headmaster I took it to mean that he chose it for what that person did as headmaster.

Gryffindors are seen as brave, and he was letting his know that he could be sorted into Slytherin and still be a brave person, because Snape was a Slytherin and probably the bravest man he ever knew. Not only that, Harry named his son after a Slytherin. He was letting his son know it was OK to be sorted into that house.

I think he was letting his son know that choices matter, and that being defined by one House or another did not have to stop one from making right choices or being brave.

People are usually very selective when they choose baby names, I think. Thinking Snape was "brave" would not be enough, IMHO. Heck - he could have named the kid Albus Arthur, or any other combination.

My opinion :)

I would think so, too. So many people displayed extraordinary courage and sacrifice in the fight against Voldemort and the Death Eaters, in my opinion. Unfortunately, Harry doesn't elaborate on his choice. He makes the statement that Albus Severus was named for headmasters and that he thought Snape was probably the bravest man he ever knew-- but doesn't say why he thought that. I can think of other reasons Harry might have done it, and I've read lots of theories, but Harry himself was silent on the matter beyond what little he stated. I tend to take characters at their word when it comes to their motives, so I take Harry's statements at their face value. I would love to know why he thought what he did, though. I find it baffling.

From the Snape thread.



I don't think Harry's hatred of Snape was based on a lie as far as Snape handing over the Prophecy; that actually happened. I think Harry had plenty of real reasons to dislike Snape as a person, both for Snape's treatment of others and the harm he did during his lifetime. I think Harry probably was very forgiving of things that happened in the past though and didn't feel much like hanging onto grudges. I agree with you about why Harry named his son after Snape-- I think it was for the reason Harry stated, that for some reason Harry thought Snape was probably the bravest man he had known during his year as headmaster.

I agree. Harry's hatred towards Snape began with Snape's terrible behavior towards himself and his friends, IMO. That alone was more than enough reason for Harry to dislike Snape immensely and I always found his feelings very understandable because it wasn't just a reaction to the rivalry between his father and Snape - which Harry really didn't learn about in any detail until his third year and never actually got the full story there. It was always more direct and stemmed from Snape's behavior towards him and his friends, IMO. I think the discovery that Snape was the one who had told Voldemort about the prophecy was just another reason added to the numerous reasons that he already had for not liking or trusting Snape. I never got the impression that Harry ever genuinely liked who Snape was as a person - particularly considering how careful he was to avoid that type of discussion with Al and focused instead on saying Snape was "probably the bravest man" he knew. If Harry had actually liked Snape as a person, I think he would have said that to his son and focused on why the Slytherin attributes had their own value instead of focusing on telling him that he could still have Gryffindor courage even if he was sorted into Slytherin.

I could understand Harry forgiving Snape. He was a compassionate person and finding out why Snape hated him so much went a long way towards helping Harry understand why Snape treated him so terribly over the years. However, I don't feel that adequately explains him naming one of his children after Snape - which is something I cannot comprehend based on what is presented in the text at all. Forgiveness is one thing, but naming his child after Snape - particularly knowing that it was something Snape would have hated and considered an insult - just doesn't make any sense to me.

Perhaps it was Harry's way of acknowledging Snape's bravery, but I think even that falls short as an explanation because Harry would have known Snape would see that as an insult, IMO. Likewise, that adds insult to his parents, his friends, and all those who fought for the right reasons and genuinely cared for Harry, IMO. I just can't make any sense of it. It's one of those details that just nags at me because it just doesn't fit well, IMO. I also find it a bit disturbing that he named all three of his children after people that he knew were involved in a love triangle of sorts.

I didn't particularly like how Harry was presented in the epilogue to be honest - specifically his speech to Al because it didn't come across as entirely honest to me. Harry seems much more like a politician with all the double talk there - especially when he essentially takes back everything he said by telling Al how to get out of being sorted into Slytherin. I was reminded of Scrimgeour trying to placate Harry in hopes that he would be willing make it appear that he was working for the Ministry. I found it disheartening that Harry seemed to have lost the very thing that I always admired most about him and become the type of person he had never particularly cared for in his youth.

Harry probably named his child after Snape, not only beacause he was the 'bravest man he ever knew', but almost to show how grateful he was - Snape pretty much sacrificed his life to protect Harry. He risked being a double-agent and fooling Voldemort, an accomplished legilimens, just to make sure Harry was as safe as possible. That is a huge sacrifice to make for someone, especially someone who is the son of the man who once made your life hell. So basically, Harry recognised how much Snape had given up for him, and wanted to commemorate what he had done for him - he wanted to show his appreciation for Snape.

Carried over from the Snape thread, on the topic of Harry naming Albus Severus:

I hope that Harry did not overlook Snape's vindictiveness towards him as unimportant. IMO, words can be hurtful, and Snape's words were hurtful. IMO, Harry could acknowledge that Snape was brave without brushing aside his bullying behaviour as something unimportant.

I like to think that Harry looked back on his childhood tormentor with the wisdom of adulthood. Words are hurtful in youth, yes -- but it's also true that words don't hurt as much (in some cases not at all) to an adult who has a well developed sense of self-worth, self-respect, and a good understanding of a bully mentality --> frought with insecurity & low self-esteem. I think eventually Harry was able to rise above whatever Snape thought of him, because he had a real sense of who he was - independent of the judgement of others - and had gained a greater perspective on who Snape was, as well. (I like to think the same of Neville, too).

"Albus Severus" is Harry's answer to "Look at me", as far as I am concerned. As he was dying, Snape chose to tell Harry his life story, and asked Harry to listen (only, of course, he could barely speak, so he communicated it through his memories). I think Harry's answer would show Snape that in the end, Harry understood.

^ITA. Also, I think Harry was someone who could appreciate genuine remorse, as far as the prophecy is concerned. Not only that, but I think he came to realize that if Snape had not asked for Lily's life to be spared, he would not have survived AK that fateful night. If Harry was able to look back and feel grateful for the life that he had (thanks to Snape), instead of feeling bitter about a life that he never got to live (thanks to Snape) -- then I think it's another good reason why he would name his son Albus Severus. It says so much about Harry's grace, IMO.

Harry probably named his child after Snape, not only beacause he was the 'bravest man he ever knew', but almost to show how grateful he was - Snape pretty much sacrificed his life to protect Harry. He risked being a double-agent and fooling Voldemort, an accomplished legilimens, just to make sure Harry was as safe as possible. That is a huge sacrifice to make for someone, especially someone who is the son of the man who once made your life hell. So basically, Harry recognised how much Snape had given up for him, and wanted to commemorate what he had done for him - he wanted to show his appreciation for Snape.

Snape protected Harry - but only after he put Lily in mortal peril. Snape didn't protect Harry because a child deserved to be safe. Or even because he regretted putting an innocent child in mortal peril. He only protected Harry because of Lily. Snape didn't sacrifice his life to protect Harry, he worked to make amends to Lily for causing her death. It shouldn't matter who Harry's parents were, and how much Snape loved one and hated the other. Harry was a child, and did not deserve to be the target of a madman, because of a prophecy Snape passed on. It's like deliberately starting a house-fire and expecting someone to be grateful that you pulled them from the building, and humiliated them for good measure.



I like to think that Harry looked back on his childhood tormentor with the wisdom of adulthood. Words are hurtful in youth, yes -- but it's also true that words don't hurt as much (in some cases not at all) to an adult who has a well developed sense of self-worth, self-respect, and a good understanding of a bully mentality --> frought with insecurity & low self-esteem. I think eventually Harry was able to rise above whatever Snape thought of him, because he had a real sense of who he was - independent of the judgement of others - and had gained a greater perspective on who Snape was, as well. (I like to think the same of Neville, too).

I like to think that Harry would not kid himself that Snape's behaviour was acceptable. To me, that would speak of very poor self-respect, rather than any kind of developed sense of self-respect. I think that Harry would be able to respect what Snape did for the war, while also acknowledging that Snape behaved poorly towards him. IMO, it would be lacking respect for his parents, as well as for himself if Harry validated Snape's behaviour and thought it any way acceptable. I fail to understand why maturity should mean finding hurtful behaviour acceptable. IMO, Harry would have been able to not care what Snape thought of him, but I don't think that's the same as minimising Snape's spitefulness towards him.


^ITA. Also, I think Harry was someone who could appreciate genuine remorse, as far as the prophecy is concerned. Not only that, but I think he came to realize that if Snape had not asked for Lily's life to be spared, he would not have survived AK that fateful night. If Harry was able to look back and feel grateful for the life that he had (thanks to Snape), instead of feeling bitter about a life that he never got to live (thanks to Snape) -- then I think it's another good reason why he would name his son Albus Severus. It says so much about Harry's grace, IMO.


I don't think Harry ought to be grateful for Snape asking Voldemort to spare Lily. IMO, that's like expecting Harry, Neville and co. to be grateful to Umbridge for making the DA a necessity. Or expecting Harry to be grateful to Voldemort for giving Lily the option to move aside. Lily's sacrifice saved Harry. That was not what Snape wanted, Snape's intentions in asking Voldemort to spare Lily were entirely selfish, and not at all related to what Lily wanted.I can see that he would be grateful for Snape's work against Voldemort, but I truly cannot understand why Harry would be grateful for a selfish deed that backfired on Snape. The only person Harry should be grateful to for his survival in Godric's Hollow is Lily, and to a lesser extent, James. However, Lily was the only one who consciously made the decision. Lily chose to die rather than watch her baby be murdered. Snape would have had her watch her beloved child die. I can't imagine Harry, when he became a parent himself, thinking that was in any way good.

I like to think that Harry would not kid himself that Snape's behaviour was acceptable.

I don't think forgiving is the same as condoning. Do you?

To me, that would speak of very poor self-respect, rather than any kind of developed sense of self-respect.

I disagree. I don't think that anytime someone finds it in their heart to forgive, that they are disrespecting themselves, or that it speaks of very poor self-respect.

I think that Harry would be able to respect what Snape did for the war, while also acknowledging that Snape behaved poorly towards him. IMO, it would be lacking respect for his parents, as well as for himself if Harry validated Snape's behaviour and thought it any way acceptable.

Sorry, I'm not understanding how you're getting from here to there: How is forgiving someone's behavior the same as condoning their behavior?

I fail to understand why maturity should mean finding hurtful behaviour acceptable.

I fail to understand why maturity should mean eternal victimhood. I don't think Harry, both as the man who defeated Voldemort, as a Gryffindor, and as a father of 3, would come to think of himself as a perpetual victim. I think his life experiences were empowering & I don't think Snape's hurtful behavior towards him when he was 15 left him hurt, at 38. That sounds more like Snape's POV than Harry's, IMO.

I don't think Harry ought to be grateful for Snape asking Voldemort to spare Lily. IMO, that's like expecting Harry, Neville and co. to be grateful to Umbridge for making the DA a necessity. Or expecting Harry to be grateful to Voldemort for giving Lily the option to move aside.

I don't see these situations as parallel. Voldemort gave Lily options on behalf of Snape's request, not because he cared about Lily. And Umbridge did not feel remorse over not teaching DADA properly, and begin to help Harry and the DA while spying on the Ministry for Dumbledore -- that might have been a parallel situation.

Lily's sacrifice saved Harry.

I have to respectfully disagree here. Her sacrifice was no more precious than James' sacrifice. Her sacrifice was made in the exact same spirit as James's sacrifice. James loved his son just as much, and his choice to willingly give his life held just as much integrity as hers. James sacrifice did not save Harry, and Lily's did, by virtue of a technicality of magical law, alone. Harry has no reason to thank Voldemort for asking Lily to step aside, because Voldemort did not give her that option on his own behalf. He did so on behalf of Snape's request to spare her.

That was not what Snape wanted, Snape's intentions in asking Voldemort to spare Lily were entirely selfish, and not at all related to what Lily wanted.

And yet, his love for her saved Harry's life. I believe Harry felt grateful for the life that he had thanks to Snape's love for his mother, rather than feeling bitter for a life he never knew thanks to Snape putting the general public in danger.

I can see that he would be grateful for Snape's work against Voldemort, but I truly cannot understand why Harry would be grateful for a selfish deed that backfired on Snape.

Again, because it saved his life.

The only person Harry should be grateful to for his survival in Godric's Hollow is Lily, and to a lesser extent, James. However, Lily was the only one who consciously made the decision.

I have to disagree completely here, sorry :shrug: I think James & Lily both had the option - as human beings with free will - to run away when Voldemort arrived. Neither one did, because they loved their son. So I don't believe for a second that James ignored his option to run away (making his sacrifice null), while Lily actually had a crisis of conscience about whether or not she should shield Harry with her life (making her sacrifice operative)...

I don't believe there was a difference in their decisions to protect Harry -- the difference was that Voldemort gave options to one, and not to the other. And he did so on behalf of Snape's request.

Snape would have had her watch her beloved child die. I can't imagine Harry, when he became a parent himself, thinking that was in any way good.

Me neither, but I can imagine Harry forgiving Snape and honoring his bravery -- because asking Voldemort to spare Lily's life was probably the riskiest thing he ever did.

Personally, I don't think asking to spare Harry's life was ever really an option. What would Voldemort have done with a DE who was asking him to spare the life of the one who would vanquish him? Voldemort might have decided to kill James & Lily for fear that any future child of theirs could vanquish him, so how suspicious would it seem if Snape asked Voldemort to spare the life of those who thrice defied him? Simply put, I think Voldemort would have finished Snape right then & there if he had asked to spare the lives of the entire family, and to quote Dumbledore "what use would that be to anyone?"

IMO, the most he could do was ask for Lily to be spared, and even for that, he could have been killed on the spot had Voldemort been more paranoid -- or even just plain annoyed that a servant was asking any kind of favor of him in the first place. And yet, he did it - he confronted Voldemort & asked the unimaginable - and he did it out of genuine love. And it saved Harry's life. I think it goes far to explain why Harry named his son after Snape, and why he would call him "the bravest".

=FurryDice;5878147]Snape protected Harry - but only after he put Lily in mortal peril. Snape didn't protect Harry because a child deserved to be safe. Or even because he regretted putting an innocent child in mortal peril. He only protected Harry because of Lily. Snape didn't sacrifice his life to protect Harry, he worked to make amends to Lily for causing her death. It shouldn't matter who Harry's parents were, and how much Snape loved one and hated the other. Harry was a child, and did not deserve to be the target of a madman, because of a prophecy Snape passed on. It's like deliberately starting a house-fire and expecting someone to be grateful that you pulled them from the building, and humiliated them for good measure.

Well Harry had to put up with a lot from Snape.. Including dealing IMO with Snape's transference of his guilt onto Harry's shoulders. That Harry was a big enough person to forgive Snape for this unfair(to say the least) behavior says a heck of a lot more about Harry, than Snape. Actually, I kinda think Harry's forgiveness has nothing to do with Snape at all.





I like to think that Harry would not kid himself that Snape's behaviour was acceptable. To me, that would speak of very poor self-respect, rather than any kind of developed sense of self-respect. I think that Harry would be able to respect what Snape did for the war, while also acknowledging that Snape behaved poorly towards him. IMO, it would be lacking respect for his parents, as well as for himself if Harry validated Snape's behaviour and thought it any way acceptable. I fail to understand why maturity should mean finding hurtful behaviour acceptable. IMO, Harry would have been able to not care what Snape thought of him, but I don't think that's the same as minimising Snape's spitefulness towards him.

Well IMO it sort of foolish to try and compare Snape's behaviour with Harry. I think Harry grew to be the kind of man that Snape could never come close to. Snape never had the generosity fo spirit that Harry had in abundance. Harry loved life and everything in it. Snape...Snape found life IMO, something that he endured, and if he had to suffer the pain of life it so did everybody else that he came in contact with. This is made plain in the forgiveness thing, Harry forgave freely, Snape wouldn't. Harry was the bigger man, the better man IMO.





I don't think Harry ought to be grateful for Snape asking Voldemort to spare Lily. IMO, that's like expecting Harry, Neville and co. to be grateful to Umbridge for making the DA a necessity. Or expecting Harry to be grateful to Voldemort for giving Lily the option to move aside. Lily's sacrifice saved Harry. That was not what Snape wanted, Snape's intentions in asking Voldemort to spare Lily were entirely selfish, and not at all related to what Lily wanted.I can see that he would be grateful for Snape's work against Voldemort, but I truly cannot understand why Harry would be grateful for a selfish deed that backfired on Snape. The only person Harry should be grateful to for his survival in Godric's Hollow is Lily, and to a lesser extent, James. However, Lily was the only one who consciously made the decision. Lily chose to die rather than watch her baby be murdered. Snape would have had her watch her beloved child die. I can't imagine Harry, when he became a parent himself, thinking that was in any way good.[/QUOTE]

Well Harry had to put up with a lot from Snape.. Including dealing IMO with Snape's transference of his guilt onto Harry's shoulders. That Harry was a big enough person to forgive Snape for this unfair(to say the least) behavior says a heck of a lot more about Harry, than Snape. Actually, I kinda think Harry's forgiveness has nothing to do with Snape at all.
I agree; it says more about Harry's ability to be compassionate towards other people. Once Harry understood Snape's history, he was able to understand where Snape was coming from, and be able to acknowledge Snape's bravery in fighting Voldemort, and Snape's feelings for Lily. Nowhere is it implied that Harry thought all of Snape's actions & motives were acceptable...but at least Harry now understood, and was able to not only acknowledge the good part of Snape, but ensure that the wizarding world did as well.

Well IMO it sort of foolish to try and compare Snape's behaviour with Harry. I think Harry grew to be the kind of man that Snape could never come close to. Snape never had the generosity fo spirit that Harry had in abundance. Harry loved life and everything in it. Snape...Snape found life IMO, something that he endured, and if he had to suffer the pain of life it so did everybody else that he came in contact with. This is made plain in the forgiveness thing, Harry forgave freely, Snape wouldn't. Harry was the bigger man, the better man IMO.
I agree.

I don't think Harry ought to be grateful for Snape asking Voldemort to spare Lily. IMO, that's like expecting Harry, Neville and co. to be grateful to Umbridge for making the DA a necessity. Or expecting Harry to be grateful to Voldemort for giving Lily the option to move aside. Lily's sacrifice saved Harry. That was not what Snape wanted, Snape's intentions in asking Voldemort to spare Lily were entirely selfish, and not at all related to what Lily wanted.I can see that he would be grateful for Snape's work against Voldemort, but I truly cannot understand why Harry would be grateful for a selfish deed that backfired on Snape. The only person Harry should be grateful to for his survival in Godric's Hollow is Lily, and to a lesser extent, James. However, Lily was the only one who consciously made the decision. Lily chose to die rather than watch her baby be murdered. Snape would have had her watch her beloved child die. I can't imagine Harry, when he became a parent himself, thinking that was in any way good.
I agree with your view. The remarkable thing is that despite knowing these things about Snape (asking for Lily's life, without a thought about James' or Harry's life), Harry is still able to see Snape's whole story, understand what Snape's motivations were (both good and bad), let the negative part go, and accept the good in Snape and his role in the defeat of Voldemort.

Snape has more then redeemed hi self. Yes, I too believe in second chance and Severus would be the "proof" of it.

This is something i have thought about in the past and have always felt that JKR kind of stuffed up on in regards to Harry's personality.

We see the way Harry is treated by the Dursley's and other than a bit of anger management issues Harry doesn't seem to have any real negative personality traits based on how he was abused as a child. Now i am no child psychologist but should Harry be more affected by the years of abuse than he is because in the first book Harry seems to act almost like a normal 11 year old boy despite the fact he was treated so badly.

Does anyone else think it was a flaw in JKR's writing that Harry was raised by the Dursley's and yet his personality was largely undamaged by them or do you think i am making mountains out of mole hills. Also if you agree with me how should Harry's personality have been changed to make it more realistic?

Yes, I have often asked that my self, Gingercat! :) I too believe that a normal child would be very much affected by the abuse and neglect from the Dursleys...A saving thought for Harry must have been, through this whole years, that his own parents were others, good and quite different people and that they have loved him unconditionally. Yes, this knowledge probably has played a major role.

Still, I wouldn't know if this was a flaw in Jo's plot. There were times I have thought so, but not anymore somehow. I try to reason with it at the very least :)

Greetings, Ginny

=ginevraweasly;5882804]Snape has more then redeemed hi self. Yes, I too believe in second chance and Severus would be the "proof" of it.

Perhaps this belongs in Snape's thread.

Yes, I have often asked that my self, Gingercat! :) I too believe that a normal child would be very much affected by the abuse and neglect from the Dursleys...A saving thought for Harry must have been, through this whole years, that his own parents were others, good and quite different people and that they have loved him unconditionally. Yes, this knowledge probably has played a major role.

Still, I wouldn't know if this was a flaw in Jo's plot. There were times I have thought so, but not anymore somehow. I try to reason with it at the very least :)


Harry was affected by the Dursleys. He took from it a life long distrust of authority and a life long hatred of seeing injustice done to innocents. IMO that was what drove Harry to become an Auror. He was driven to prevent innocents from being hurt like he was.

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1. How do Harry's formative years with the Dursley's influence the person he is now? Would he be the same person if his parents had lived? If he had been sent to live with another wizarding family? If he had been sent to an orphanage like Tom Ridde?


I was actually thinking about this very thing the other day and how with all of the cruel treatment that Harry recieved living with his Aunt and Uncle, he could have been an repressed, mean child but instead became a compassionate and enduring person. Of course he would have been different if his parents lived but I believed that they were such good people that they passed those traits along to their son. If he were sent to live with another wizarding family he would have some sort of idea of the wizarding world as a child but I still think he would have been a good person still.

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2. When do we first see evidence of Harry's "saving people" thing? Is this a strength or a flaw? What do you think of his final sacrifice??



Right from the beginning you see Harry recognizing good from bad they way he rejected friendship from Draco Malfoy on the Express. He also defends Neville during their first broom lesson. I also think Harry is smart as well as brave and he knew what he had to do, brave or not.

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7. What do you think of Harry's use of Unforgivables in DH???


He knows right from wrong and I think it was what he had to do.

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8. Why do you think Harry forgives Snape????

Snape is another tragic character. In childhood shapes him into a shy, lonely, follower who is desperate for friends. He falls into the wrong crowd and recognizes that but is too late to stop the horrible events that took place. He is sorry for what happends and he will do all the good in the world so he can forgive himself. I think Harry sees the good in him and the sacrifes he makes, including his life, for the love he once had for his mother.

I don't think forgiving is the same as condoning. Do you?

No, I don't. However, if Harry pretends that it doesn't matter that Snape treated him like dirt, I consider that condoning. For there to be forgiveness, Harry needs to be aware that Snape's treatment of him was wrong, that there was no justification for it. And then move on and no longer hold a grudge. If Harry justifies Snape's bullying of him, or pretends it doesn't matter, I don't consider that forgiveness, I consider it being a doormat.


I disagree. I don't think that anytime someone finds it in their heart to forgive, that they are disrespecting themselves, or that it speaks of very poor self-respect.

Forgiveness, yes. Telling himself that it didn't matter that Snape bullied him strikes me as very poor self-respect, and it doesn't seem like forgiveness to me. If he thinks that Snape was justified in behaving as he did, it strikes me as very disrespectful to his parents, especially to Lily.


Sorry, I'm not understanding how you're getting from here to there: How is forgiving someone's behavior the same as condoning their behavior?

I don't consider forgiveness to equate to telling himself it doesn't matter that Snape hurt him. It does matter when someone hurts you, and I don't think forgiveness makes it matter less that someone was hurt. It means they've moved past it, not that it was unimportant, or worse, deserved.

I fail to understand why maturity should mean eternal victimhood. I don't think Harry, both as the man who defeated Voldemort, as a Gryffindor, and as a father of 3, would come to think of himself as a perpetual victim. I think his life experiences were empowering & I don't think Snape's hurtful behavior towards him when he was 15 left him hurt, at 38. That sounds more like Snape's POV than Harry's, IMO.

Moving on is not the same as pretending that Snape's beahviour was unimportant, or kidding himself that he blew the cruelty and spite out of proportion. Forgiveness doesn't mean that Harry decided it was his own fault his eleven - sixteen year old self was hurt by Snape's actions. And I find it interesting that a fifteen year old's feelings are apparently less important when Snape is the one inflicting the hurt. :shrug:


I don't see these situations as parallel. Voldemort gave Lily options on behalf of Snape's request, not because he cared about Lily. And Umbridge did not feel remorse over not teaching DADA properly, and begin to help Harry and the DA while spying on the Ministry for Dumbledore -- that might have been a parallel situation.

I think they are parallel - Snape certainly did not mean to help Harry when he asked for Voldemort to spare Lily. Umbridge did not mean to help the students defend themselves when she taught them so little that they went and taught themselves. Something good came of a bad deed, and in neither case do I give Snape or Umbridge credit. If Harry ought to be grateful to Snape for asking for Lily's life, he should also be grateful to Voldemort for giving Lily the choice to step aside. :shrug: It's the same principle - Snape wanted Lily to step aside, Voldemort offered her the chance to step aside - why should he be grateful to Snape for that if he would not also be grateful to Voldemort?

I have to respectfully disagree here. Her sacrifice was no more precious than James' sacrifice. Her sacrifice was made in the exact same spirit as James's sacrifice. James loved his son just as much, and his choice to willingly give his life held just as much integrity as hers. James sacrifice did not save Harry, and Lily's did, by virtue of a technicality of magical law, alone. Harry has no reason to thank Voldemort for asking Lily to step aside, because Voldemort did not give her that option on his own behalf. He did so on behalf of Snape's request to spare her.


Lily and James both died to save Harry. Lily's sacrifice was the one that gave him magical protection. I think it's ironic - James died in the hope that he would buy Lily time to get away with Harry, whereas Lily died expecting that her child would soon join her.


And yet, his love for her saved Harry's life. I believe Harry felt grateful for the life that he had thanks to Snape's love for his mother, rather than feeling bitter for a life he never knew thanks to Snape putting the general public in danger.

Lily's love for Harry saved her son's life. I do not give Snape any credit for that, and I would be disappointed with the man Harry became if he was grateful to Snape for asking for something so callous, especially after Harry became a parent himself. I don't think he would think too highly of anyone who requested him to be spared while James, Al or Lily were murdered.


I have to disagree completely here, sorry :shrug: I think James & Lily both had the option - as human beings with free will - to run away when Voldemort arrived. Neither one did, because they loved their son. So I don't believe for a second that James ignored his option to run away (making his sacrifice null), while Lily actually had a crisis of conscience about whether or not she should shield Harry with her life (making her sacrifice operative)...

Indeed. They both loved their son. Lily loved her son, so she would not do what Snape and Voldemort wanted her to do. Neither of them chose to run or to step aside. IMO, that shows love, genuine, selfless love more completely than anything else.

I don't believe there was a difference in their decisions to protect Harry -- the difference was that Voldemort gave options to one, and not to the other. And he did so on behalf of Snape's request.

It was Lily's response to that offer that saved Harry. If Snape had had his way, Lily would have watched her child murdered, and she would have been a captive of Lord Voldemort. Lily's choice saved Harry, and I do not give Snape one jot of credit for that.

Me neither, but I can imagine Harry forgiving Snape and honoring his bravery -- because asking Voldemort to spare Lily's life was probably the riskiest thing he ever did.

I do not see it as that risky. Voldemort boasted of rewarding his servants, after all. I can see him considering Lily as a "reward" for the prophecy.

Personally, I don't think asking to spare Harry's life was ever really an option. What would Voldemort have done with a DE who was asking him to spare the life of the one who would vanquish him? Voldemort might have decided to kill James & Lily for fear that any future child of theirs could vanquish him, so how suspicious would it seem if Snape asked Voldemort to spare the life of those who thrice defied him? Simply put, I think Voldemort would have finished Snape right then & there if he had asked to spare the lives of the entire family, and to quote Dumbledore "what use would that be to anyone?"

No, he couldn't have asked for Harry's life. But he asked for Lily's life at the expense of her child - not caring one damn what she would feel. As Dumbledore said to him - "They can die as long as you get what you want"
Also, it didn't matter to him whose life would be destroyed until he got a taste of his own medicine. I don't like to think Harry would be grateful for such selfishness. I think he would be grateful for Snape's later work in protecting him, but I sincerely hope he wasn't grateful for that.

Actually, I kinda think Harry's forgiveness has nothing to do with Snape at all.

I think that's a good point. Forgiveness, rather like grudge-bearing, has more to do with the person who is hurt than the person who hurt them. Snape couldn't forgive, that was to do with Snape himself. Harry could forgive, that was to do with Harry himself.

I agree; it says more about Harry's ability to be compassionate towards other people. Once Harry understood Snape's history, he was able to understand where Snape was coming from, and be able to acknowledge Snape's bravery in fighting Voldemort, and Snape's feelings for Lily. Nowhere is it implied that Harry thought all of Snape's actions & motives were acceptable...but at least Harry now understood, and was able to not only acknowledge the good part of Snape, but ensure that the wizarding world did as well.

I agree with your view. The remarkable thing is that despite knowing these things about Snape (asking for Lily's life, without a thought about James' or Harry's life), Harry is still able to see Snape's whole story, understand what Snape's motivations were (both good and bad), let the negative part go, and accept the good in Snape and his role in the defeat of Voldemort.

I see it a lot like this. IMO, forgiveness doesn't mean glossing over the negative. IMO, one has to acknowledge the negative in order to forgive it. If it isn't a negative, how can it be forgiveness? IMO, Harry was able to let go of the hurt Snape had caused him, but not pretend that it didn't matter.

[QUOTE=FurryDice;5883100]No, I don't. However, if Harry pretends that it doesn't matter that Snape treated him like dirt, I consider that condoning. For there to be forgiveness, Harry needs to be aware that Snape's treatment of him was wrong, that there was no justification for it. And then move on and no longer hold a grudge. If Harry justifies Snape's bullying of him, or pretends it doesn't matter, I don't consider that forgiveness, I consider it being a doormat.

I watched a show on TV a long time ago. A lady who had lost her daughter in a fairly unforgivable manner forgave the man who had done her so much wrong. Her husband could not forgive. Of the two of them, she was the one who had moved on and lived a life that actually gave something back to her community. Her forgiveness did not change the man who did the wrong but it changed how she lived her life. When I read about Harry's forgiveness I was reminded of that woman's remarkable ability to forgive the unforgivable.

Forgiveness, yes. Telling himself that it didn't matter that Snape bullied him strikes me as very poor self-respect, and it doesn't seem like forgiveness to me. If he thinks that Snape was justified in behaving as he did, it strikes me as very disrespectful to his parents, especially to Lily.

Of course it mattered. It mattered to Harry and it mattered to Snape.
QUOTE]

How many people's favourite character is Harry...because when I was younger (7 or 8) he was my favourite character but now as I've grown up I've goren to love different characters more....although I will stick with Harry forever obviously :D

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