Draco Malfoy: Character Analysis

But Draco doesn't even look at them - if he was merely in doubt, he would look carefully, and then say 'I'm not sure, dad'. He can hardly deny it's Hermione and Ron because the adults in the room know them. Narcissa recognizes Hermione, and Ron looks like a Weasley, there's no way around it.

I honestly have to see the cannon. As I said it is a bit fuzzy. But Draco is not asked for confirmation for either Hermione or Ron?

It seems to me that Draco could have said something like “All mudbloods look a like. I’m not positive that this is the horrible Granger girl.” Or “The Weaslely’s breed like rats, this doesn’t look like the Weaslely that is always dogging Potter’s heels.” If was compelled by concern for Harry and gang into not identifying Harry.

However a positive confirmation of either Hermione or Ron will not bring Voldemort back to his home. Where as a positive ID of Harry would bring Voldemort back. And even crazy aunt Bellatrix is scared to do that.

Harry is the only one that can be given the benefit of a - false - doubt. Draco knows them not only as far as their appearances are concerned; he knows that where Ron and Hermione are, Harry can't be far - and anyhow, who's that mysterious boy supposed to be, else? Draco knows every single boy roughly in his age - they've been in school together for six years.

I think fear can add doubt. After all if I ask you your mother’s phone number you could probably tell it to me with out hesitation. If I pointed a gun at your head, and said I would give you and your family a lingering death if you where off by one digit I think you would be a little more hesitant and careful with each number.

I think Draco was probably 99% sure it was Harry, but I don’t think he wanted to take an even 1% chance that he might be wrong and Voldemort’s wrath might be turned on him.

I think fear more then any thing else is what compels Draco, fear is why he let’s DE into Hogwarts. Fear is why he is in the room of requirements during the battle. Draco at his heart is a very fearful person. He is neither malevolent nor benevolent he is simply an guy in who can’t swim and is in over his head.

I think fear more then any thing else is what compels Draco, fear is why he let’s DE into Hogwarts. Fear is why he is in the room of requirements during the battle. Draco at his heart is a very fearful person. He is neither malevolent nor benevolent he is simply an guy in who can’t swim and is in over his head.

And fear is why he does not run for his life when faced with Fiendfyre, choosing instead to try and drag the unconscious Goyle with him, I suppose?

And fear is why he does not run for his life when faced with Fiendfyre, choosing instead to try and drag the unconscious Goyle with him, I suppose?

I agree. In addition, JKR said Draco knew full well it was Harry that he confronted at Malfoy Manor, 100%. She said Draco was purposely protecting him. She didn't tell us his motivations, but for whatever reason, Draco's intent was to keep Harry's identity to himself. I also believe that Draco refused to leave Goyle to burn to death and he seemed genuinely upset about Crabbe's death. I agree that Draco's character carried a lot of ambivalence, but in these instances, for whatever reason, Draco, imo, was not acting purely on his own behalf or on behalf of his family.

In addition, JKR said Draco knew full well it was Harry that he confronted at Malfoy Manor, 100%. She said Draco was purposely protecting him. She didn't tell us his motivations, but for whatever reason, Draco's intent was to keep Harry's identity to himself.

That's true! If Draco had been faced with the same opportunity earlier in the series, I don't think he would have hesitated to sell Harry out; but, after seeing first-hand what it would be like with Voldemort in power, he knew that life would be better if he wasn't around- and the only person who could achieve that was Harry. So, he risks getting caught by Bellatrix, or Voldemort himself, and deliberately lies in front of them all.

That action went completely against the self-preservation gene that all Slytherins seem to be born with; and it was a complete 180 from what the old Draco would have done.

I also believe that Draco refused to leave Goyle to burn to death and he seemed genuinely upset about Crabbe's death. I agree that Draco's character carried a lot of ambivalence, but in these instances, for whatever reason, Draco, imo, was not acting purely on his own behalf or on behalf of his family.

Again, this is true! Crabbe and Goyle, at that point and time, had just told him that they didn't take orders from him anymore- due to his fathers demotion in the ranks- and saving Goyle from the fire didn't do anything to benefit him or his family. It may have appeared, to us readers, that Crabbe and Goyle were just his lackies; but, based on his actions in Deathly Hallows, I think it's safe to assume that they were more than that: they were his friends.

Draco started out as an arrogant, cowardly, self-centered prick; but he ended up risking his well-being for someone he had hated since he was 11-years-old. We don't know how much the war changed him, but based on his civility at King's Cross in the Epilogue, I think it's safe to assume that it turned him into a better person.

And fear is why he does not run for his life when faced with Fiendfyre, choosing instead to try and drag the unconscious Goyle with him, I suppose?

Fear of losing a loved one to a horrible death, perhaps? I did not say he was always fueled by self preservation.

Just for the record I like Draco. To me there are the heroes of the story, the Trio, Dumbledore etc... There are the villains Voldemort, Bellatrix, etc... And then there is everybody else who is trying like heck just to make it as best they can in world gone dangerously mad.

This is where I place Draco. Just a normal guy who was a bit of a pampered arrogant git, but not the pathological sort. Who was suddenly placed, in large part due to both his family and his own poor choices, in very treacherous waters and he tried to do the best he could by those he loved (himself included).

I agree. In addition, JKR said Draco knew full well it was Harry that he confronted at Malfoy Manor, 100%. She said Draco was purposely protecting him. She didn't tell us his motivations, but for whatever reason, Draco's intent was to keep Harry's identity to himself. I also believe that Draco refused to leave Goyle to burn to death and he seemed genuinely upset about Crabbe's death. I agree that Draco's character carried a lot of ambivalence, but in these instances, for whatever reason, Draco, imo, was not acting purely on his own behalf or on behalf of his family.

May I be so bold as to ask for a link to said quote? :)

Even if he was sure it was Harry I think the thought of Voldemort returning to his house scared the poo out of him. And it doesn't drastically change how I view the scene or his motivations. :)

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?
I think so. I think from early on we are suppose to see Draco in the light of a the Bully. As readers immediately feel sorry Harry because of him being orphaned and neglected by his family, we see the total opposite. A boy that was not only pampered, but loved by his parents. When Draco is sorted in Slytherin the house that we are told pretty much breeds dark wizards, I think we as readers are suppose to think it is only a matter of time. Especially when we get suspicion about Lucius being a Death Eater.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.
I don't know if this is a question, but I have something to say about it anyways. I think this was my first impression of Lucius, but as the series went on and more specifically in DH we see that he really does love and care for his son above all else and same for Narcissa.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?
I think a lot of his actions derive from fear. We see so many moments when Draco is cowardly in the face of opposition. I also think though that he really did think that he was better than everyone because of his pure blood and he clung to that until he became a Death Eater and then I think he felt like he was not only pure blood, but in in league with the greatest dark wizard there ever was. I think he found some power in that, but that didn't last long and soon actions were done out of fear for his and his parents' life.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.
Yes I think he really was dumbfounded by Harry not being impressed.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?
I think he is misunderstood. There are times he seems just plain mean, but he grew up to think that way. The pure blood status was drilled into him and he truly felt that he was better than people. He had many chances where he could have saw that he was wrong or made the right choice, but that would mean admitting that not only everything he was ever taught was wrong, but that his parents were wrong as well. I think his actions and tone changed a lot after The Lightning Struck Tower. He saw that he could not kill and I think then is when he started to change his mind about his choices. I loved this part in DH:

"Well, Draco?" said Lucius Malfoy. He sounded avid. "Is it? Is it Harry Potter?"
"I can't--I can't be sure," said Draco. He was keeping his distance from Greyback, and seemed as scared of looking at Harry as Harry was of looking at him.
"But look at him carefully, look! Come closer!"
Harry had never heard Lucius Malfoy so excited.
"Draco if we are the ones who hand Potter over to the Dark Lord, everything will be forgiv--"
*snip*
Harry saw Draco's face up close now, right beside his father's. They were extraordinarily alike, except that while his father looked beside himself with excitement, Draco's expression was full of reluctance, even fear.
"I don't know," he said, and he walked away toward the fireplace where his mother stood watching.
As we can read Draco goes on to be indifferent to all the questions he is getting. It is only when Bellatrix comes storming in that he sort of snaps back into his old self. Was I the only one impressed by his actions here? Of course, he knew that it was the three of them, yet he was reluctant to give them up at first...why?

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?
No, I don't think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore. I think he knew that the consequences of killing Dumbledore were worse than his servitude to Voldemort. I don't think Draco felt like he had a choice after what happened on The Lightning Struck Tower. Dumbledore was the only one that was offering him help and a way out of the situation for him and his family. Dumbledore was offering him safety. When Dumbledore was killed I think Draco lost hope of being helped out of his situation.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.
Hmmm...I don't know. I would like to think that he would repay it if he had the chance.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?
I don't know what he would have done. It is possible he didn't need to work at all as he was so well endowed. I would like to think that he helped with the rebuilding process in some way. No, I don't think Pansy was his wife in DH, he was too good for her IMO. I think he would have met some one else. I loved that we got to see him in the epilogue and that he gave Harry a curt nod. It was almost like the two had some sort of understanding between each other that was unspoken, but I got a feeling of some kind of resolution and respect between them. Like yeah we would never be close friends, but they were civil to each other.

I also like to think that they would have some sort of relation between the two in years to come and as their children grow. I like the thought that their sons became friends and united the two houses once more.

Yeah, I never really had a firm understanding of that scene. Did Draco actually want them to escape, when capturing Harry Potter would have brought his family back on top. Did he want them to contiue on, and defeat the Dark Lord? He hated being a Death Eater once he got into it, that's for sure, but I'm still confused as to why he would not identify them.

The boy has some good in him, that is for sure, although it could be argued that he didn't actually save Harry's life in that scene- the trio were held captive anyway while Lucius and Bella argued over calling their master, and Dobby saved them. However, had Harry left Draco in the flames, he would have died.

-LilyPod

That's an interesting question: whether Draco saved Harry's life. If Draco did deliberately not identify Harry (which I believe is true, although it's open to discussion), then he certainly greatly increased his chances of surviving + defeating Voldemort. If Draco had said "yes, that's him," Lucius would have summoned Voldy straight away, and Voldy would have attempted to kill Harry. Whether he would have succeeded, or whether the scene in the Forbidden Forest would simply have occured earlier, is doubtful. However, if Draco had identified Harry straight away, Bellatrix wouldn't have had time to come in, notice the sword and have a fit, thereby telling the Trio that there was very likely to be a Horcrux in her Gringotts vault. So even if they'd escaped, they may have had a lot more difficulty figuring out where Hufflepuff's cup was.

Obviously, Draco knew nothing about this, so looking at it from his point of view, if he took the decision to not ID Harry, he would have been able to predict that a) it might save Harry, Ron and Hermione from Voldemort and b) if Voldemort found out it would make him very angry with Lucius, Draco and Narcissa and c) that if he did ID him it would raise the Malfoy family back into their old position in Voldy's favour. Thinking about it from Draco's POV, Harry would seem to owe him a life debt as Draco's reason for the action would be to save Harry's life. But it really does depend on how life debts work: if you have to ask to be saved, Harry didn't ask to be saved by Draco, so it wouldn't.

OK, I've confused myself now! :P

Did Draco actually want them to escape, when capturing Harry Potter would have brought his family back on top. Did he want them to contiue on, and defeat the Dark Lord? He hated being a Death Eater once he got into it, that's for sure, but I'm still confused as to why he would not identify them

I had always assumed as much and JKR said in her last interview (the one about Dumbledore being gay) that Draco was indeed trying to protect them by trying not to identify the Trio.

And though I'm not the person you asked, Blackcatsmeow , here's the quote.

"He was prepared to come over to Dumbledore's side. I hope you see that there's some of that same feeling in Book Seven, when he does try to protect Harry."

From here. (http://www.mtv.com/movies/news/articles/1572399/20071019/story.jhtml)

I had always assumed as much and JKR said in her last interview (the one about Dumbledore being gay) that Draco was indeed trying to protect them by trying not to identify the Trio.


I agree...that interview confirmed my suspicion that Draco had been protecting the trio in that scene. It really changed my perspective of him for the rest of the book. When Draco was racing around the ROR crying for Crabbe and Goyle not to kill Harry because Voldemort wanted him taken alive - I did not believe that is what Draco truly meant. I really think he believed that Harry was the only hope that Voldemort would be vanquished. I think Snape may have reinforced that idea in Draco during their escape from Hogwarts in HBP (telling him that Voldemort believed, based on the prophecy, Harry was the only one who would be able to kill him now - while Snape would appear to speak as a loyal Death Eater, his point would be made).

It also changed my idea of what Draco was talking about in the ROR when he spoke about helping to find the Diadem. He remarked that if Harry Potter wanted it, it must be special or something along those lines, as if he wished to help find it. While that could be interpreted to mean that he wished to keep it from Harry - I do not think that was the case.

Finally, what exactly was Draco doing when the trio later came upon him trying to convince a Death Eater that he was on Voldemort's side. Clearly the Death Eater was convinced Draco was not on Voldemort's side or Draco would not have had a need to say anything - it would have been evident. Thus, he was either doing nothing when something should have been done that would assist Voldemort (that is, assisting DEs) or actively assisting to do something that appeared to be helping the good side.

Thus my view of Draco in the 7th book changed dramatically from the first six. I believe he was mostly concerned about his family, but as JKR indicated - he was prepared to come over to Dumbledore's side (as long as he could save his skin - and that of his mother and father - at the same time). I cannot fault him for thinking of his family. Harry did the same thing in light of Ginny, Ron and Hermione who were like family to him.

I agree...that interview confirmed my suspicion that Draco had been protecting the trio in that scene. It really changed my perspective of him for the rest of the book. When Draco was racing around the ROR crying for Crabbe and Goyle not to kill Harry because Voldemort wanted him taken alive - I did not believe that is what Draco truly meant. I really think he believed that Harry was the only hope that Voldemort would be vanquished. I think Snape may have reinforced that idea in Draco during their escape from Hogwarts in HBP (telling him that Voldemort believed, based on the prophecy, Harry was the only one who would be able to kill him now - while Snape would appear to speak as a loyal Death Eater, his point would be made).

It also changed my idea of what Draco was talking about in the ROR when he spoke about helping to find the Diadem. He remarked that if Harry Potter wanted it, it must be special or something along those lines, as if he wished to help find it. While that could be interpreted to mean that he wished to keep it from Harry - I do not think that was the case.

Finally, what exactly was Draco doing when the trio later came upon him trying to convince a Death Eater that he was on Voldemort's side. Clearly the Death Eater was convinced Draco was not on Voldemort's side or Draco would not have had a need to say anything - it would have been evident. Thus, he was either doing nothing when something should have been done that would assist Voldemort (that is, assisting DEs) or actively assisting to do something that appeared to be helping the good side.

Thus my view of Draco in the 7th book changed dramatically from the first six. I believe he was mostly concerned about his family, but as JKR indicated - he was prepared to come over to Dumbledore's side (as long as he could save his skin - and that of his mother and father - at the same time). I cannot fault him for thinking of his family. Harry did the same thing in light of Ginny, Ron and Hermione who were like family to him.

excellent point about the begging moment, wick :tu:

Thinking about it, I can actually see Draco trying to take out one of those creepy spiders or something (somehow I picture him as arachnophobe) when the DE caught him there.

The diadem - I absolutely agree. I believe that Draco might have thought something along the lines 'If Potter wants this so badly that he comes here of all places (after hiding away for so long), it's important that at least Voldemort doesn't get it. We don't want Voldemort to get into an even better position, do we?'

Finally, what exactly was Draco doing when the trio later came upon him trying to convince a Death Eater that he was on Voldemort's side. Clearly the Death Eater was convinced Draco was not on Voldemort's side or Draco would not have had a need to say anything - it would have been evident. Thus, he was either doing nothing when something should have been done that would assist Voldemort (that is, assisting DEs) or actively assisting to do something that appeared to be helping the good side.

Thinking about it, I can actually see Draco trying to take out one of those creepy spiders or something (somehow I picture him as arachnophobe) when the DE caught him there.

Well, Draco didn't have his wand or any wand (which is why he couldn't fight off the DE) so I'm not sure how much he could have been doing.

I just assumed the DE was a new pick and someone who hadn't met Draco Malfoy before (if the DE joined after Easter this is possible) and possibly Imperio'd to boot. It was strange that he had no reaction at all to Draco's attempts to identify himself. No taunts, no jeers, nothing. Like a robot.

The DE probably went after anyone in a Hogwarts uniform, which would have included Draco.

Well, Draco didn't have his wand or any wand (which is why he couldn't fight off the DE) so I'm not sure how much he could have been doing.

I just assumed the DE was a new pick and someone who hadn't met Draco Malfoy before (if the DE joined after Easter this is possible) and possibly Imperio'd to boot. It was strange that he had no reaction at all to Draco's attempts to identify himself. No taunts, no jeers, nothing. Like a robot.

The DE probably went after anyone in a Hogwarts uniform, which would have included Draco.

Yeah but he could have just shown his mark then I would think. He seemed to have been trying to convince the DE verbally which means the Dark Mark alternative was out. That leads me to believe it was someone who knew him, at least by sight.

Yeah but he could have just shown his mark then I would think. He seemed to have been trying to convince the DE verbally which means the Dark Mark alternative was out. That leads me to believe it was someone who knew him, at least by sight.

Good point! Maybe it was Rowle :P .

Now, I'm stumped about what could have been going on there. If it weren't for the fact that Draco's parents were in the castle and there's no way he'd leave without them, I'd say Draco was trying to get out of Dodge.

Now, I'm stumped about what could have been going on there. If it weren't for the fact that Draco's parents were in the castle and there's no way he'd leave without them, I'd say Draco was trying to get out of Dodge.

His parents were not in the castle at that point. They were with Voldemort. They came to the castle after Harry was "killed" by Voldemort.

His parents were not in the castle at that point. They were with Voldemort. They came to the castle after Harry was "killed" by Voldemort.

On the grounds. Same idea.

On the grounds. Same idea.

But wasn't the problem with Draco at this point that he SHOULD have been where his parents are at this point - that's why Lucius beseeches Voldemort in the Shack.

Actually, as a DE, he probably should have been out fighting. From the scene, it reads as only Lucius (and Nagini) are with Voldy and then he sends the former out to find Snape.

But I've always wondered where Draco was between the moment Ron punches him out and when his parents find him after the battle. He's not mentioned again and that's quite a bit of time for him to go missing. I wonder what he was doing.

But I've always wondered where Draco was between the moment Ron punches him out and when his parents find him after the battle. He's not mentioned again and that's quite a bit of time for him to go missing. I wonder what he was doing.

I think he was probably just hiding, trying to keep himself safe and wait for it all to be over- it didn't seem like he wanted to fight or had the will or spirit to keep going. IMO, when he got down and begged the Death Eater, claiming to be on his side, then beamed at whoever stunned the Death Eater, he showed that he was just trying to stay alive, and didn't actually have the conviction to pick a side and fight in the battle.

That is why I would venture a guess that he found an empty room and hid with Goyle until he either heard Lucius and Cissa screaming or they found him.

-LilyPod

Actually, as a DE, he probably should have been out fighting. From the scene, it reads as only Lucius (and Nagini) are with Voldy and then he sends the former out to find Snape.

Voldemort andf Lucius speak of Draco in "The Elder Wand". Voldemort observes to Lucius that Draco did not come to him, and speculates this is because he has befriended Harry Potter. Based on this, I would have to think Draco did not have orders to stay in the castle and fight, but stayed there (for whatever purpose) on his own initiative.

Ah, yes, you're right. I was thinking this was during the fighting but it would be during the brief truce that Voldemort called, wouldn't it?

The only point I was making was that Draco didn't appear to have been aggressively attempting to further Voldemort's goals during DH. I am not placing a halo on Draco's head :lol:, but he was not actively attempting to pave the way for the Dark Lord's victory. I believe this is in line with what JKR said in the quote above - that he was prepared to join the good side (if any). However, throughout DH, Draco was burdened by what Voldemort would do to him and his family if he actually did jump sides. While I don't think he was heroically assisting the good cause, I do feel that he was placing sludge in the path of Voldemort.

I am curious - what does that phrase mean? 'Put slugde in someone's path'? Off the cuff, I have a mental image of putting slugs in someone's way, as an equivalent to our slapstick banana skin - and there's another instant Makani sketch in the line ;)

I think Draco, before anything, any side, any whatever - IS NOT A FIGHTER. He just isn't. In PS, when he challenges Harry to meet for a duel, he just doesn't turn up, but sends Filch instead. Later on, in the Forbidden Forest, his best instinct when seeing the creepy unicorn slayer is to to run away, screaming (and here he's mentally a good deal ahead of Harry, who's stunned for a moment - Draco got good escape reflexes). Draco is never one for physical confrontation, no matter for what cause.

So, regardless of his personal preferences who'll win, I would always see Draco hide under the most unsuspicious rock he can find when it comes down to combat. Some call it cowardice, I think of it as healthy survival instinct. And in this particular case, he's got a heavy weight on the motivation side - no matter what he does, he's got to keep his parents in mind. Looking at Lucius, we still see punishment marks, and without a wand, Voldemort delights in keeping the man 'for company' with him in the Shack. I believe that Draco is aware of that predicament to some degree. And there's also his mum - Draco himself got her wand, so he knows that she is largely defenceless.

We heard that Draco would have accepted Dumbledore's offer if that one had lived. Mind you, that offer was about hiding the Malfoys, not about having them join the frontline in active anti-Voldemort combat. I don't see Draco having the nerve for this in the first place, let alone with his parents as a kind of 'hostages' on the other side. What would happen if one of the Death Eaters in the castle returned and said, 'master, Lucius' son just stunned two of our people!!!' Draco wouldn't want to take that risk, I really cannot see that.

Quirrell, his body possessed by Voldemort in PS, says something like 'it's not about good or evil, it's about power'. Draco, his home ursurped by Voldemort in DH, would probably rephrase this as 'it's not about good or evil, but about sheer survival of me and those I love'. And pretending not to exist is the best option he's got in that respect. Lay down on the ground next to the unconscious Goyle and pretend to be dead anyway.

I am curious - what does that phrase mean? 'Put slugde in someone's path'? Off the cuff, I have a mental image of putting slugs in someone's way, as an equivalent to our slapstick banana skin - and there's another instant Makani sketch in the line ;)

:lol:. Well putting slugs in someone's path - or a banana peel - would indeed be the same thing. It means that Draco may have allowed those fighting for the good side to race by him without doing anything. Or calling out a warning when someone was about to be attacked. Things of that nature.


I think Draco, before anything, any side, any whatever - IS NOT A FIGHTER. He just isn't. In PS, when he challenges Harry to meet for a duel, he just doesn't turn up, but sends Filch instead. Later on, in the Forbidden Forest, his best instinct when seeing the creepy unicorn slayer is to to run away, screaming (and here he's mentally a good deal ahead of Harry, who's stunned for a moment - Draco got good escape reflexes). Draco is never one for physical confrontation, no matter for what cause.

I would agree with you. I don't believe that Draco was a fighter. He would hide and at most, do the things that I indicated above. However, he was doing something that made the DE suspicious of him, so I would imagine that Draco was being inactive when he should have been active.


We heard that Draco would have accepted Dumbledore's offer if that one had lived. Mind you, that offer was about hiding the Malfoys, not about having them join the frontline in active anti-Voldemort combat. I don't see Draco having the nerve for this in the first place, let alone with his parents as a kind of 'hostages' on the other side. What would happen if one of the Death Eaters in the castle returned and said, 'master, Lucius' son just stunned two of our people!!!' Draco wouldn't want to take that risk, I really cannot see that.

I agree :tu:

I am curious - what does that phrase mean? 'Put slugde in someone's path'? Off the cuff, I have a mental image of putting slugs in someone's way, as an equivalent to our slapstick banana skin - and there's another instant Makani sketch in the line ;)
You have to love Makani sketches ;)

I think Draco, before anything, any side, any whatever - IS NOT A FIGHTER. He just isn't. In PS, when he challenges Harry to meet for a duel, he just doesn't turn up, but sends Filch instead. Later on, in the Forbidden Forest, his best instinct when seeing the creepy unicorn slayer is to to run away, screaming (and here he's mentally a good deal ahead of Harry, who's stunned for a moment - Draco got good escape reflexes). Draco is never one for physical confrontation, no matter for what cause.

I agree wholeheartedly. I like Draco, and I loved the way his character was developed throughout the series, but I can't say that I find him to be particularly courageous or warrior-like, as opposed to many of the Gryffindor protagonists, such as Harry, Sirius, Dumbledore, etc. That is not to say that Draco couldn't be brave- just that he chose not to, and, IMO, it is not in his nature to play the hero. During both battles (at the end of HbP and DH), Draco doesn't show himself to be a fighter; instead, he is presented as scared and hanging on for survival, and he is unable to live up to what is expected of him as a Death Eater, because he just doesn't have the ruthless spririt or nerve to do so. During the Battle of Hogwarts, after Harry saved his life, and he was begging the Death Eater, beseeching him, swearing he was on his side, IMO, you could really see the defining characteristic of Draco Malfoy: his priority is to save himself. He doesn't want to fight, he doesn't care about the cause anymore, he just simply wants to stay alive.

Quirrell, his body possessed by Voldemort in PS, says something like 'it's not about good or evil, it's about power'. Draco, his home ursurped by Voldemort in DH, would probably rephrase this as 'it's not about good or evil, but about sheer survival of me and those I love'. And pretending not to exist is the best option he's got in that respect. Lay down on the ground next to the unconscious Goyle and pretend to be dead anyway.

I agree here as well. Draco absolutely does love his family, and his ultimate goal at the battle was their safety as well as his own. That is what I love so much about the Malfoys: they really are SO devoted to one another.

-LilyPod

Question of my own:

What kind of father do you think Draco became to Scorpius (and any other children)?

Personally, I think that Draco's experiences in Vold War II made him be a quite different father than Lucius was to him. I think that Draco would have been a bit more nurturing. We saw in DH that he apparently didn't have the stomache for the Death-Eater lifestyle, so seeing that stuff early in his life may have made him be a bit more of a softie than his father was. I think he'd take more after his mother, who did seem to be more the affectionate type.

posted by chparadise
What kind of father do you think Draco became to Scorpius (and any other children)?

Definitely a lot better than Lucius Malfoy IMO. I think Draco for all his weakness had a concience and was not a killer. Unlike Lucius. I believe he would have been a good father to Scorpius, and though I think he would have told Scorpius that Slytherin was the best House, he would have made sure that blood never became an issue like it was when he attended Hogwarts.

Question of my own:

What kind of father do you think Draco became to Scorpius (and any other children)?


I think Draco is probably a very good father. He obviously loves his family quite a lot and I see that only growing when he had a son.

I can see Draco having a lot of shame about being a DE and making a point of not discussing with his son until he was older. Draco probably still has prejudices against muggleborns but I see him making an honest effort not to pass them on.

I think Draco is probably a very good father. He obviously loves his family quite a lot and I see that only growing when he had a son.

I can see Draco having a lot of shame about being a DE and making a point of not discussing with his son until he was older. Draco probably still has prejudices against muggleborns but I see him making an honest effort not to pass them on.

I agree. I like it because I think it would be terrible if everyone in the book ended up just like Harry in the end. I mean it would make for a idealic wizard world, but wholly unrealistic, imo. I imagine Draco with some of his prejudices remaining - albeit perhaps not to the level of his father. I see him as still haughty and looking down upon Harry in his own way. But seeing as Harry was acting pretty much the same way toward him (less the blood prejudice factor), I guess it was fair and square.

I don't know that he would be that different from Lucius, honestly. I think Lucius is more stubborn than Draco, in that though he made a horrible choice in his allegiance he was not willing to take the steps to escape that allegiance, and instead focused on his hate. Draco had more of a moral conscience, and caved to it, but in the end I don't think that would change his parenting style.

Perhaps he will be a bit less hard on his son, but I think his opinions about what a Malfoy and a pureblood ought to be are ingrained too deeply. Circumstances are different so I'm sure Scorpius will be a different boy than Draco was, but I honestly don't see it causing a huge turn around in general Malfoy behavior. Though, I think if Albus got into Slytherin it would be a very interesting time.

If Albus got into Slytherin, sparks would fly and really it would be great if Al and Scorpius became friends. (Ron would have a fit!:evil:)

But I think, it would be even better if Scorpius got into Gryffindor. What Ron would have done had Al been sorted into Slytherin would not even compare with Draco's expression, not to mention Lucius's when they heard a Malfoy got sorted into Gryffindor.

Draco would probably faint!:wow: and for Lucius, I cannot even imagine. *evil cackles*

If Albus got into Slytherin, sparks would fly and really it would be great if Al and Scorpius became friends. (Ron would have a fit!:evil:)


I would love for Scorpius and Albus Severus to get into Slytherin together and become best friends- the Harry/Draco interactions would be priceless, not to mention the playdates!

I will admit to wanting Scorpius to be in Slytherin, on account of the fact that I'm a hopeless Rose/Scorpius lover, and Ron needs to disapprove of the kid as much as possible. :evil:

As for Draco the Daddy:


I think Malfoy would go back to being an improved version of what he was but we shouldn't expect him to be a really great guy any time soon.
I took this to mean that Draco will undoubtedly hold on to his old prejudices about blood purity, and pass them on to Scorpius. However, JKR had also mentioned that Draco has been "humbled" and "sobered" by his own misfortune, so I don't think he's necessarily held on to his old arrogance about the Malfoy name and passed that on to Scorpius (especially under the New Ministry, in which I doubt "Malfoy" demands the influence that it once did). Overall, I think Draco will be a decent father, who, in spite of teaching his son bloodist ideals, will love his son dearly just as Lucius and Narcissa loved him, and will do anything to protect his son and keep his safe, just as his parents did for him.

Draco has the capacity to use his own mistakes to teach Scorpius how to be a better person than he was, and to teach his son not to err in the same way he and his family did. JKR, after all, did say that Scorpius would be an improvement on Draco (Bloomsbury chat). IMO, it's the mark of a good father if he teaches his son to be a better person than he was.

-LilyPod

Question of my own:

What kind of father do you think Draco became to Scorpius (and any other children)?

I would agree with the people before me and say he's a good father. I think he'd be very loving and protective. Actually, I read an adorable little ficlet that Fernwithy wrote of Draco taking little!Scorpius to Andromeda (who is a healer in this fic) after Scorpius accidentally makes himself look like a dragon while he and Daddy were having story time. That's how I see Draco as a father, I think he'd be involved and probably more Dad/Daddy than a distant, dignified "Father".

As for whether or not he passes on his own prejudices. I think that depends, in part, on the woman he marries. If he marries someone with his own prejudices, than he probably will. If he doesn't and she challenges him about this, then I'd say no.

I think Draco might actually end up a bit overprotective, considering what he's seen. He probably will be a more involved father than Lucius was, IMO.

I would love for Scorpius and Albus Severus to get into Slytherin together and become best friends- the Harry/Draco interactions would be priceless, not to mention the playdates!

I will admit to wanting Scorpius to be in Slytherin, on account of the fact that I'm a hopeless Rose/Scorpius lover, and Ron needs to disapprove of the kid as much as possible. :evil:

As for Draco the Daddy:


I think Malfoy would go back to being an improved version of what he was but we shouldn't expect him to be a really great guy any time soon.
I took this to mean that Draco will undoubtedly hold on to his old prejudices about blood purity, and pass them on to Scorpius. However, JKR had also mentioned that Draco has been "humbled" and "sobered" by his own misfortune, so I don't think he's necessarily held on to his old arrogance about the Malfoy name and passed that on to Scorpius (especially under the New Ministry, in which I doubt "Malfoy" demands the influence that it once did). Overall, I think Draco will be a decent father, who, in spite of teaching his son bloodist ideals, will love his son dearly just as Lucius and Narcissa loved him, and will do anything to protect his son and keep his safe, just as his parents did for him.

Draco has the capacity to use his own mistakes to teach Scorpius how to be a better person than he was, and to teach his son not to err in the same way he and his family did. JKR, after all, did say that Scorpius would be an improvement on Draco (Bloomsbury chat). IMO, it's the mark of a good father if he teaches his son to be a better person than he was.

-LilyPod

I agree. While people don't really change all that much unless you have really life threatening circumstances or worse, like Snape and Dumbleodre, people are happy the way they are. They can justify almost everything after all. I mean, Voldemort was able to even justify killing people, magical people, because he felt they were not good enough to belong.

But Draco had one horrible year, when he would have known just what the death eaters do, and how failure to do the job given would be dealt with. And then the death of Dumbledore as well.

Those would have humbled him a lot like Jo said and while I still think he would say teach Scorpius to be proud of the Malfoy name, he would tone down everything I think.

But the more I think of it, I would love Scorpius to be in Gryffindor. That would be the ultimate punishment to Lucius:evil:

And Ron would splutter and stutter, because he would not know if Gryffindor turned bad or (he would choke as he thought this) a Malfoy became one of the good guys!:lol:

I agree. While people don't really change all that much unless you have really life threatening circumstances or worse, like Snape and Dumbleodre, people are happy the way they are. They can justify almost everything after all. I mean, Voldemort was able to even justify killing people, magical people, because he felt they were not good enough to belong.

But Draco had one horrible year, when he would have known just what the death eaters do, and how failure to do the job given would be dealt with. And then the death of Dumbledore as well.

Those would have humbled him a lot like Jo said and while I still think he would say teach Scorpius to be proud of the Malfoy name, he would tone down everything I think.

But the more I think of it, I would love Scorpius to be in Gryffindor. That would be the ultimate punishment to Lucius:evil:

And Ron would splutter and stutter, because he would not know if Gryffindor turned bad or (he would choke as he thought this) a Malfoy became one of the good guys!:lol:

That is a funny thought. But something tells me that there was just too much Slytherin in Draco for it not to be passed down to his son. Being a Death Eater was not what Slytherin was all about originally. It was a pureblood superiority thing and according to the hat, being cunning and using any means to obtains one's ends were primary traits. I think Draco exhibited those traits, outside of his Death Eater desires in 6th. Lucius and Narcissa did as well imo, and I think Scorpius would be raised to buy into all of that. It is possible Scorpius, like Sirius, would defy his family in that way, but I think Draco would be a kind father and there would be no real need for his son to rebel. Slytherin was a great house (the greatest imo) and with much of the blood superiority angle removed (according to JKR), there would be no reason for Scorpius to be placed elsewhere.

I liked Draco's character because it never changed throughout and there were no weird hidden mysteries behind his actions. Next to Blaise, he was my favorite Slytherin.

wick, you're of course right - there is no real reason why Scorpius shouldn't be in Slytherin. It's just funny to think he was sorted elsewhere - and imagining Draco's face when he hears of it ;)

I stand by what I said - Scorpius should go to Hufflepuff. Because it's the house that Draco is most horrified of in PS, and also because I have difficulties to spot bravery in the gene pool - whereas loyalty is there in abundance. Bella was nothing if not loyal. So were Regulus and Sirius. And Lucius and Narcissa - not loyal to causes, but to people, and the same goes for Draco. Crabbe's just turned against him and nearly got him killed, but when Draco realises Crabbe is dead, he is devastated. Though threatened to be killed by the fire, he does not let go of his other friend Goyle's hand, even though he could save himself. I think that's pretty loyal and worthy of Hufflepuff. And little Scorpius could be so intimidated (a loving dad notwithstanding) by the old family history that a part of him is simply afraid to join Slytherin and not stand up to the traditions then (maybe he sucks at flying or something ;) ). I really like the idea of Draco being a nice dad. I think he's been raised with love and care himself, he knows how to do it - imitating his own father minus the more aggressive and polemic bits. And Lucius in the background as the stern old grandfather - I imagine Scorpius to be quite awed and intimidated by the old man, and hiding behind his mum's legs if he can. :)

We also don't know about the pureblood witch he married. For all we know she could have passed on a lot of other House genes to Draco (assuming she came from Hogwarts, of course), though to think of him marrying a Hufflepuff, or a Gryffindopr pureblood witch is simply unbelievable.

What would be more important to Draco, I wonder -- Pureblood spouse or House???

Or maybe he married for love?

I don't think the House is a matter of genes as much as it is a matter of personal strengths and weaknesses, as well as personal values (fickle as they are at 11). So Scorpius could be sorted anywhere really.

I personally hope he's in Slytherin, because Jo did say he was a decent human being and much better than his father (who wasn't that bad to start with), and I was so looking forward to seeing a "good" Slytherin (and was massively disappointed that Jo said there were such, off page, but never made it canon).

Since we know nothing about Scorpios except that he is a better sort then Draco, it is hard to know what house he'll be in. Also we have no idea about his mother it is completely possible that she came from a either a different house or a different school. Both of which would influence her son.

I can see Draco not wanting Scorpios in Slytherin to tell you the truth. Before the end the Malfoys betrayed Voldemort. A house full of the decent of Voldemort supporters may not be Draco's ideal place for his son. Likewise I don't think Draco is going to forget the horror of being a DE and watching all those people be tortured and killed. Though I doubt he would Scorpios in Gryffindor, or Hufflepuff either. In the end I think Draco will except where ever the hat places Scorpios with out much resistance.

I can see Draco being a good father in the sense that he will care for Scorpius and not bring him up with the ambition of being a DE. On the other hand, I can't see him giving up on the pureblood importance - it's too ingrained. I also can't see Scorpius not being in Slytherin as the sorting hat takes your choices into consideration and I'm sure Draco will have told his son how great his old house is. Scorpius didn't seem to be on the platform with any "henchmen" like Draco was when we first met him, so perhaps having to make new friends will make the boy less of a bully than his father was. If Draco has learned from his mistakes then I don't think he'd encourage his son to make the same ones! On the other hand I'm sure he'd rather Scorpius didn't make a friend of Harry Potter's son!

Or maybe he married for love?

I would agree - Draco was arrogant and thought highly of himself. I don't really see him marrying someone to please his parents or stick with the Malfoy tradition - although I think he would fall in love with a girl like that anyway. But whoever he married, I believe he'd want it to be someone he loved as well - his example was his parents and they did seem to care for one another.


I don't think the House is a matter of genes as much as it is a matter of personal strengths and weaknesses, as well as personal values (fickle as they are at 11). So Scorpius could be sorted anywhere really.

I personally hope he's in Slytherin, because Jo did say he was a decent human being and much better than his father (who wasn't that bad to start with), and I was so looking forward to seeing a "good" Slytherin (and was massively disappointed that Jo said there were such, off page, but never made it canon).

I think Scorpius could be sorted anywhere. But the thing is, many children did seem to be sorted where their parents had been because they were raised with the genes and example of their parents. So I too could see Scorpius in Slytherin like his dad. :)

I don't know what you mean by a "good" Slytherin. We did have Slughorn who fought against evil and showed no blood prejudice (inviting everyone from mudbloods to purebloods into his Slug Club). We also had kids that didn't want to be Death Eaters like Zabini and Flint, although they did show the blood superiority deal - but they were not 'bad' as in evil. There were others we don't know about as well that left by the time of the Battle like Urquhart, Vaisey, Higgs, Derrick and Bole - all of whom may not have been death eaters and may not have even held blood superior attitudes. Zabini, Pritchard, Baddock, Harper and Bulstrode were all during Harry's time and although the only one who mocked the Death Eatersin canon was Blaise, others may have as well.

So I think there were a number of potential good Slytherins and thus little Scorpius could be a good Slytherin too. I doubt Draco would want his son to find himself in the shoes he was in at Hogwarts. :lol:. But that would not necessarily be the case, imo, because JKR said things had changed and were more even with respect to the houses and sorting by the time little James Potter (Harry's son) made it to Hogwarts.

I don't know what you mean by a "good" Slytherin. We did have Slughorn who fought against evil and showed no blood prejudice (inviting everyone from mudbloods to purebloods into his Slug Club).

I don't judge the characters on their blood-status views (a matter of culture - racial orejudice has never been a problem in the culture I was raised in, so I don't seem to pay much attention to that; I never cared too much about the bloodist theme in HP), but on their actions and attitude to others. I agree Slughorn can be placed with the "good guys", I had forgotten about him. I was thinking about the kids, because Jo was asked once why all the Death Eater children are in Slytherin, and she said that they are not ll like that, they are not all in that pile, and if I remember correctly, she even said we'd see this in book 7, so I was looking forward to that. That's why I was disappointed - especially after I read the final battle. Not only did she not write anything to change the established view of the Slytherins, but she made a point to put it on oage taht they went to join the DEath Eaters and fight for Voldemort. It was very sad for me.

By the way, if you, or anyone else, is interested in continuing this discussion, we can move to the "Slytherin House: Group Character Analysis" thread :)

We also had kids that didn't want to be Death Eaters like Zabini and Flint, although they did show the blood superiority deal - but they were not 'bad' as in evil. There were others we don't know about as well that left by the time of the Battle like Urquhart, Vaisey, Higgs, Derrick and Bole - all of whom may not have been death eaters and may not have even held blood superior attitudes. Zabini, Pritchard, Baddock, Harper and Bulstrode were all during Harry's time and although the only one who mocked the Death Eatersin canon was Blaise, others may have as well.

Yeah, but what may have happened off page is not the part of the story, and not the part of the characters, and doesn't influence the impression left, because it's not a part of what built the story.

I don't judge the characters on their blood-status views (a matter of culture - racial orejudice has never been a problem in the culture I was raised in, so I don't seem to pay much attention to that; I never cared too much about the bloodist theme in HP), but on their actions and attitude to others. I agree Slughorn can be placed with the "good guys", I had forgotten about him. I was thinking about the kids, because Jo was asked once why all the Death Eater children are in Slytherin, and she said that they are not ll like that, they are not all in that pile, and if I remember correctly, she even said we'd see this in book 7, so I was looking forward to that. That's why I was disappointed - especially after I read the final battle. Not only did she not write anything to change the established view of the Slytherins, but she made a point to put it on oage taht they went to join the DEath Eaters and fight for Voldemort. It was very sad for me.

By the way, if you, or anyone else, is interested in continuing this discussion, we can move to the "Slytherin House: Group Character Analysis" thread :)

Yeah, but what may have happened off page is not the part of the story, and not the part of the characters, and doesn't influence the impression left, because it's not a part of what built the story.

I see what you mean...I guess the most we got on page was Blaise mocking the Death Eaters, so we can figure he didn't become one. The book just says that they all left the great hall then Voldy says they came to him. But Voldy couldn't know if every single one came to him and I doubt that was the case. Draco didn't 'come to him' per se, but he and Crabbe and Goyle were supposedly working for him. So I would think some at least remained in Slytherin House doing nothing, lol. Or at least just Blaise :lol:. Pretty sad. But Draco himself didn't really help Voldy out in the last battle, we saw him working against him in Malfoy Manor and again in the ROR. Also the last time we saw him in battle, he was trying to convince a DE that he was on the guy's side - so he was either doing 'nothing' or 'something against the interest of Voldy', otherwise I would imagine the guy would not have been on the point of attacking him. I know in his heart Draco was likely looking out for himself and thinking of his family, but for a DE that is better than working for Voldy directly, imo.

ps. I tried to start a conversation of this sort in the Slytherin thread, but no one goes there :( I love Slytherin house and would love to discuss it with anyone who likes.

But Draco himself didn't really help Voldy out in the last battle, we saw him working against him in Malfoy Manor and again in the ROR. Also the last time we saw him in battle, he was trying to convince a DE that he was on the guy's side - so he was either doing 'nothing' or 'something against the interest of Voldy', otherwise I would imagine the guy would not have been on the point of attacking him. I know in his heart Draco was likely looking out for himself and thinking of his family, but for a DE that is better than working for Voldy directly, imo.

Well, all the Slytherin kids were supposed to have left the castle so any DE who didn't know Draco personally would have assumed he was on the Hogwarts' side, wouldn't he? I don't think Draco could have been doing much in the castle as he had lost his mother's wand in the ROR which would have put him at a disadvantage. I don't really see why he was out and about to be accosted by a DE - in his circumstances, I'd have been hiding. He couldn't have been expecting his parents to turn up ahead of Voldemort - they had no wands either so were very much in Voldemort's power. I wonder what became of Goyle? (But that's not for this thread - sorry!)

from the Time Magazine (LilyPod has posted the link in the J.K.Rowling : revealations thread)
8. Who does Draco Malfoy marry?
Astoria Greengrass, younger sister of the Greengrass family. We meet Daphne Greengrass, part of Pansy Parkinson's Slytherin posse, in Book V when Hermione takes her O.W.L.s. Neville marries Hannah Abbott, who becomes the owner of The Leaky Cauldron. "I do have it all worked out in my mind because I couldn't stop myself doing that."

That's one question cleared for me. Draco married Daphne's little sister. Most likely a Slytherin too, though we don't know that still, so no problems with marrying the right sort for Draco. I had thought he may have married someone who had never been to Hogwarts, but being Daphne's sister, she too might have gone to Hogwarts.

Though Harry and Ron and even Hermione never seemed to recognize her. Maybe she was much younger to Daphne.

I would imagine that Astoria is a pureblood Slytherin, if not, a Ravenclaw. I just can't imagine Draco's personality meshing with a Hufflepuff or Gryffindor.

I too thought Draco would have married a girl from Durmstrang, as his family's reputation suffered in Britain, but I am happy to have this cleared up as it is- I am guessing Astoria was a few years younger than Draco and Co, so it is likely that the trio did not know her, as their is never a mention of Harry talking to or actually meeting Daphne- especially if she was a Slytherin.

It is nice to know that Draco was able to get married and have a son despite his murky past and his misfortune during the War as a Death Eater. I would venture a guess that Astoria's family is pureblood and holds purist beliefs, but never actively supported the Dark Lord, kind of like Blaise Zabini.

-LilyPod

I would imagine that Astoria is a pureblood Slytherin, if not, a Ravenclaw. I just can't imagine Draco's personality meshing with a Hufflepuff or Gryffindor.

I too thought Draco would have married a girl from Durmstrang, as his family's reputation suffered in Britain, but I am happy to have this cleared up as it is- I am guessing Astoria was a few years younger than Draco and Co, so it is likely that the trio did not know her, as their is never a mention of Harry talking to or actually meeting Daphne- especially if she was a Slytherin.

It is nice to know that Draco was able to get married and have a son despite his murky past and his misfortune during the War as a Death Eater. I would venture a guess that Astoria's family is pureblood and holds purist beliefs, but never actively supported the Dark Lord, kind of like Blaise Zabini.

-LilyPod

I agree, that was my thought as well about Astoria. I truly believe Draco would still consider a pureblood wife important. I wonder if Blaise married Daphne? lol.

Though Harry and Ron and even Hermione never seemed to recognize her. Maybe she was much younger to Daphne. Well, Jo's implied several times that the schools not big enough for everyone to know everyone else. Like when Harry has quidditch tryouts and tons of kids come out, and most aren't even Gryffindor. He doesn't realize it right away, and doesn't even know the names of all the Gryffindors. I don't think it's really surprising that wouldn't recognize a Slytherin at least a couple years younger than him, almost 20 years later.

But I agree that's cool info. People have been naming her every constellation in the sky :lol: Don't know that I like "Astoria", but it's nice to know.

Well, Jo's implied several times that the schools not big enough for everyone to know everyone else. Like when Harry has quidditch tryouts and tons of kids come out, and most aren't even Gryffindor. He doesn't realize it right away, and doesn't even know the names of all the Gryffindors. I don't think it's really surprising that wouldn't recognize a Slytherin at least a couple years younger than him, almost 20 years later.


Which still amazes me. I've been to a school with 1000 pupils distributed to nine different grades. 'Knowing' - well, obviously I never talked to the majority of these 1000 people, but I certainly would have recognised like 90%. Not twenty years later, but then (to compare it with Harry's Quidditch try-out).

That's what I thought when reading the Malfoy Manor chapter in DH - in that age-group, Draco would have known and recognised anyone that had gone to Hogwarts, too. If he did NOT know them - from Lucius' or Bella's POV - that must automatically mean that these kids had not attended Hogwarts in the first place.

But Harry's pretty isolated, isn't he? I am sure the others were not like that and since we see the whole thing through Harry's eyes, we also don't know. I am sure, like Fleur du Mal said, I also think, most people would have at least vaguely recognized the others.

And the thingy about Quidditch, aren't your robes a different colour from the other Houses as well?

Draco may have known Astoria and even had a thing for her, (the name really fits in with the Malfoys), had she been in School with him IMO.

But I agree that's cool info. People have been naming her every constellation in the sky :lol: Don't know that I like "Astoria", but it's nice to know.

Yeah, my choice was Rigel. :p The hot blue star in the constellation of Orion. :cool:

'Astoria' is a very cool name, though. I like it.

I can imagine a post-war Draco marrying a half-blood Slytherin. Or even a pureblood Ravenclaw.

I can't see him marrying a Hufflepuff gal though, even a pureblood one. I don't think Lucius could survive that. :lol:

Which still amazes me. I've been to a school with 1000 pupils distributed to nine different grades. 'Knowing' - well, obviously I never talked to the majority of these 1000 people, but I certainly would have recognised like 90%. Not twenty years later, but then (to compare it with Harry's Quidditch try-out). I totally agree, I think that's actually one of the less solid mistakes in the series related to Jo not being to hot at math :lol: Even if Harry's isolated like Green_Woods says as well as busy, distracted, and oblivious he still spent 7 years in that castle 24/7 except for holidays. It never made sense to me either. I think the 20 years later thing is a better reason for him not to know her.

And the thingy about Quidditch, aren't your robes a different colour from the other Houses as well? No that's only in fanfics and the movies. They all just have plain black robes in the books.
:lol: which actually is another odd point...If it was so hard to remember so many kids you'd think they'd try to help the teachers out by making their house clear. I think there's a quote somewhere about Snape not knowing a students house when they were standing in front of him...I don't remember where it's from, vague LQA remembrances :)

Yeah, my choice was Rigel. :p The hot blue star in the constellation of Orion. :cool:

'Astoria' is a very cool name, though. I like it. :D Rigel is cool. My favorite was Cassiopeia (going by Cassy) :lol: Though I read a fanfic where she was Hydra! and I thought that was a great choice

My favorite was Cassiopeia (going by Cassy) Though I read a fanfic where she was Hydra! and I thought that was a great choice

I've always been partial to "Ursa" what with that constellation being next to Draco in the sky and all.

Though Astoria still keeps the "star" tradition, so that works.

I never thought of star names for Draco's wife.

But I thought it fit into his ideas of blood status to have a wife who was from a Slytherin family, so as to speak. About Astoria herself...

How did she look upon Draco's failures as a death eater, I wonder? Or did she like him because he failed and was not a killer? Like so many things I really yearn to know, I would love to know how he wooed her and married her and what she saw in him, apart from the Malfoy name (which was not very good after the war) to actually marry him.

Call me naive, but I think that real love has nothing to do with a besmirched family name, etc. If the girl was in Slytherin with him, even if she was younger, she knew sides of him that simply remain hidden from the reader because the story is told from Harry's point of view. And as for his failed DE past -

Well, I wager there were ample of people after Voldemort's demise with the same problem. Collaborateurs of all sorts. It's not as if what we see happening in the Ministry in DH is carried by a handful of people - it's a whole country turning down to moral decay. Who tells us that Greengrass senior was such an innocent resistance fighter as to resent his daughter marrying Draco? Frankly - the signs of resistance were hard to find, outside of Hogwarts and the Phoenix order itself, and even the latter appeared to have kept a low profile. When we overhear Ted Tonks, Dean etc that one night, we don't hear a word that they intend to join the order, hide at some resistance movement place or anything like that.

In a country full of collaborateurs and various degrees of guilt, Draco shouldn't have had such a hard time to find someone to marry him.

posted by Fleur du Mal
Call me naive, but I think that real love has nothing to do with a besmirched family name, etc. If the girl was in Slytherin with him, even if she was younger, she knew sides of him that simply remain hidden from the reader because the story is told from Harry's point of view. And as for his failed DE past -

Well, I wager there were ample of people after Voldemort's demise with the same problem. Collaborateurs of all sorts. It's not as if what we see happening in the Ministry in DH is carried by a handful of people - it's a whole country turning down to moral decay. Who tells us that Greengrass senior was such an innocent resistance fighter as to resent his daughter marrying Draco? Frankly - the signs of resistance were hard to find, outside of Hogwarts and the Phoenix order itself, and even the latter appeared to have kept a low profile. When we overhear Ted Tonks, Dean etc that one night, we don't hear a word that they intend to join the order, hide at some resistance movement place or anything like that.

In a country full of collaborateurs and various degrees of guilt, Draco shouldn't have had such a hard time to find someone to marry him.

I agree. I would love it if she understood why he could not be tough like Lucius and if she loved all his insecurities and his fears and he also loved her truly!

I have a question about Draco.

We know that he was the best Occlumens among the students. What does this tell us about his character?

I’ve heard that JKR had made a comment regarding his talent. Occlumency is a pretty difficult art to master. It requires a well disciplined mind and the ability to control emotions. Harry struggled with it for months and could not grasp it properly. Draco however, mastered it during a school vacation having Bellatrix Lestrange as his teacher.

Draco was pretty confident regarding his skills. When Snape tried to read Harry’s mind, his defense was to look away, breaking the eye contact.

Snape’s dark eyes bored into Harry’s. Remembering what Snape had said about eye contact being crucial to Legilimency, Harry blinked and looked away.

He could never stop Snape while maintaining eye contact.

“Liar,” said Snape. Harry’s throat went dry. He knew what Snape was going to do and he had never been able to prevent it…

The bathroom seemed to shimmer before his eyes; he struggled to block out all thought, but try as he might, the Half-Blood Prince’s copy of Advanced Potion-Making swam hazily to the forefront of his mind.

But Draco even challenged Snape to try it.

“Who suspects me?” said Malfoy angrily. “For the last time, I didn’t do it, okay? That Bell girl must’ve had an enemy noone knows about — don’t look at me like that! I know what you’re doing, I’m not stupid, but it won’t work — I can stop you!”

Snape was a powerful wizard and even he could not break through Draco’s defense. He thought that Draco was good enough even to block out Voldy himself.

“Ah…Aunt Bellatrix has been teaching you Occlumency, I see. What thoughts are you trying to conceal from your master, Draco?”

This skill probably helped to develop enough confidence to do risky things like pretending not to recognize the Trio.

Is Occlumency a Slytherin trait? Or was Draco good at it simply because he was a talented wizard?

If we rank the most talented students in Harry’s year, Draco would probably get the third or fourth place. His magic was pretty advanced even when he was in the second year. Ex- Serpensortia spell. He was very resourceful and imaginative too. The Vanishing Cabinet trick was very clever.

I definitely think resourcefulness is a Slytherin trait. Using your resources wisely and creatively. I think that's shown in Slytherin's Quidditch play as well--they use their brawn since they have a lower skill level. Their lack of fair-mindedness gets in the way obviously.

Also, we know that the desire for power is part of the Slytherin personality, with this goes the desire and ability to control. Voldemort shows an immense amount of control in his willingness to bide his time and to discover all the specifics to his past and to horcrux creation. I definitely think self-control would be high on the list of house personality traits also. So yes, I think skill in occlomency would be very desirable for a Slytherin and within their grasp if they applied themselves.

100% agree that Draco is extremely intelligent. I think it's been at least alluded to that Draco's not far off Hermione in the grades department, and he's shown over and over again that he's creative, motivated, and clever. So I think his skill in occlumency was a combination of many things: his Slytherin ability for control, his resources of a talented teacher, his motivation to hide his thoughts from any/everyone, his intelligence in applying himself and knowing its importance.

I don't think Occlumency had much to do with the Slytherin traits, but more to do with Draco's personality. JKR answered it perfectly before.

MA: I wanted to go back to Draco.

JKR: OK, yeah, let's talk about Draco.

MA: He was utterly fascinating in this book.

JKR: Well, I'm glad you think so, because I enjoyed this one. Draco did a lot of growing up in this book as well. I had an interesting discussion, I thought, with my editor Emma, about Draco. She said to me, "So, Malfoy can do Occlumency," which obviously Harry never mastered and has now pretty much given up on doing, or attempting. And she was querying this and wondering whether he should be as good as it, but I think Draco would be very gifted in Occlumency, unlike Harry. Harry’s problem with it was always that his emotions were too near the surface and that he is in some ways too damaged. But he's also very in touch with his feelings about what's happened to him. He's not repressed, he's quite honest about facing them, and he couldn't suppress them, he couldn't suppress these memories. But I thought of Draco as someone who is very capable of compartmentalizing his life and his emotions, and always has done. So he's shut down his pity, enabling him to bully effectively. He's shut down compassion — how else would you become a Death Eater? So he suppresses virtually all of the good side of himself. But then he's playing with the big boys, as the phrase has it, and suddenly, having talked the talk he's asked to walk it for the first time and it is absolutely terrifying. And I think that that is an accurate depiction of how some people fall into that kind of way of life and they realize what they're in for. I felt sorry for Draco. Well, I’ve always known this was coming for Draco, obviously, however nasty he was.

Basically, the reason why Draco could master Occlumency is because he has the ability to shut down his compassion and emotions.

When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

Well I never saw it coming. Dudley was pampered, snobbish, and was a bully, but he wouldn’t have had it in him to become a Death Eater. I think there was a reason it was so shocking to see Draco as a Death Eater – it didn’t fit him. He was an all talk and no action kind of guy. He could brag about having a Death Eater dad but he wouldn’t be able to do the deeds himself; he could talk Harry up about having a duel in first year, yet never show up to fight. IMO, he was never meant to be a Death Eater and that’s why we didn’t see it coming.

Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

A mix, I’d say. There was definitely a lot of bravado about his choice of becoming a Death Eater – just the way he was showing off to the other Slytherins says enough. But there was a great amount of fear involved, too, which is shown by how unusual he was acting throughout HBP, and how he even confided in Myrtle. I don't think he really ever had a choice in the matter, though. It was basically "do this or you and your parents get tortured to death". So he did it, and tried to make it look like it was easy but a cool thing. Of course, he could have gone to Dumbledore right after being branded and asked for help straight away - but there was a lot of pride instilled into Draco to prevent him from doing that right away. So to a point, he did do things of his own volition, but given different circumstances, I feel he'd have made completely different choices.

Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.

...I just started thinking of the Shania Twain song.

Anyways, er, this isn’t really a question... is it? Well, I guess this just shows exactly how much emphasis he puts on a person’s family roots. He thinks name equals status – so he uses names to impress and such. He even refers to his “best friends” as Crabbe and Goyle – their last names. Instead of calling them by their first names, the ones that are their own, he calls them by their family names, the ones that brand them as sons of Death Eaters.

Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?

As much as I love Draco, he was pretty much a jerk. Not everyone from a background like his would turn out the way he did. So as a young kid, he was basically just mean. But when he got thrown into the Death Eater business, I think it got to the point where he really was misunderstood. Bellatrix was proud of his new status, his parents were worried, his friends were impressed, and yet he was scared out of his wits. He kept trying to put up a face but it failed miserably - even the trio noticed his odd change in behaviour. He had no one to confide in to the point where he went crying to Myrtle (and how many people would do that willingly?).

Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?

No, I think had he had enough time he would have agreed to go with Dumbledore. He did begin to lower his wand before the Death Eaters arrived. I feel there was no way Draco would be capable of killing anyone, let alone Dumbledore. I think there was, past that bully and mean exterior, a good person who just couldn’t handle the evil he was being thrown into. I see him as similar to Narcissa - he was capable of going along with what Lucius did, but being around Voldemort was too much for him.

How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future?

No idea, but considering he’s quite wealthy and probably still has some good connections here and there, he might be able to lend a hand in the auror business by pulling a few strings? Who knows. I dunno if his “generosity” would go that far. It’s Draco we’re talking about – helping Harry and Ron would bruise his ego.

What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue

I think he probably ended up with a Ministry job. I can’t see Kinglsey liking him too much, but Draco’s pretty intelligent and so I’d say he could do a good job in certain positions.

Well we know he didn’t marry Pansy (thanks god, I hated her). I think he truly married for love – I mean, Narcissa and Lucius, despite all their faults and crazy morals, loved each other and their son dearly, and I think that would be a good example for their son. Of course, his taste in women is questionable (though I don’t think he ever really liked Pansy) but as long as he loves his little Scorpius (okay misunderstood or not, that was just plain mean).

I don't think Occlumency had much to do with the Slytherin traits, but more to do with Draco's personality. JKR answered it perfectly before.

MA: I wanted to go back to Draco.

JKR: OK, yeah, let's talk about Draco.

MA: He was utterly fascinating in this book.

JKR: Well, I'm glad you think so, because I enjoyed this one. Draco did a lot of growing up in this book as well. I had an interesting discussion, I thought, with my editor Emma, about Draco. She said to me, "So, Malfoy can do Occlumency," which obviously Harry never mastered and has now pretty much given up on doing, or attempting. And she was querying this and wondering whether he should be as good as it, but I think Draco would be very gifted in Occlumency, unlike Harry. Harry’s problem with it was always that his emotions were too near the surface and that he is in some ways too damaged. But he's also very in touch with his feelings about what's happened to him. He's not repressed, he's quite honest about facing them, and he couldn't suppress them, he couldn't suppress these memories. But I thought of Draco as someone who is very capable of compartmentalizing his life and his emotions, and always has done. So he's shut down his pity, enabling him to bully effectively. He's shut down compassion — how else would you become a Death Eater? So he suppresses virtually all of the good side of himself. But then he's playing with the big boys, as the phrase has it, and suddenly, having talked the talk he's asked to walk it for the first time and it is absolutely terrifying. And I think that that is an accurate depiction of how some people fall into that kind of way of life and they realize what they're in for. I felt sorry for Draco. Well, I’ve always known this was coming for Draco, obviously, however nasty he was.

Basically, the reason why Draco could master Occlumency is because he has the ability to shut down his compassion and emotions.

I agree, JKR said that his emotions were not as close to the surface as Harry's and that is why it was easier. However, Draco definitely had compassion and at times, his emotions were very close to the surface as indicated by his words and actions on the tower; his attempt to save Goyle; his devastation at the death of Crabbe and not ratting out the trio at Malfoy Manor.

Some geekery for you all, as I procrastinate.

It now looks like, Draco's wife name is not "Astoria" but Asteria (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/Rotae/73345412gr5.jpg). A very small difference but an interesting one if you like the mythology behind names.

Aside from being another name for a star stone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_stone), Asteria is the name of several characters from Greek mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteria).

This includes Asteria, daughter of Helios and granddaughter of Hyperion the titan. (Hyperion being Scorpius' middle name.) Then there's Asteria, one of the Danaids who were known to kill their husbands on their wedding nights. And, finally, Asteria, one of the legendary Amazon warriors who fought Hercules and died.

What any of this means (if anything)? I haven't a clue but I thought I would share.

I'm sorry, but... Scorpius Hyperion Malfoy? :err:

I used to think he and Albus Severus Potter had equally bad names, but Scorpius definitely wins the contest. Perhaps another character question is what on earth was going through Draco's mind when he named his son that? :lol: Maybe he had a bit of an argument on his hands to be able to give him a star name so as a compromise Asteria was allowed to choose the middle name?

Jo's names do tend to suit the characters they are chosen for, so I'd imagine one of the mythologies, at least, relates to Asteria's character. (Draco still appears to be alive 19 years later, so hopefully it's not the killing-their-husbands one).

Hyperion is a god associated with the sun. It literally means "Hyper-Ion." :)

http://edweb.sdsu.edu/people/bdodge/scaffold/GG/titan.html#Hyperion

Hyperion is the Titan of light, an early sun god. He is the son of Gaea and Uranus. He married his sister Theia. Their children Helius (the sun), Selene (the moon), and Eos (the dawn).

So you can see it as Draco naming his only son for the Sun, Moon, Day, and Night.

Also, like Albus Severus with his Gryff/Slyth name, Scorpius Hyperion is a mixed bag. Scorpius is associated with the sign of death and Hyperion is associated with nature/sun/life. His son is life and death to him. Everything.

That's how I see it, anyway. :) I don't really know what she was thinking. It's a rather ostentatious name, but so is Draco. :lol:

Hyperion is a god associated with the sun. It literally means "Hyper-Ion." :)

http://edweb.sdsu.edu/people/bdodge/scaffold/GG/titan.html#Hyperion

Hyperion is the Titan of light, an early sun god. He is the son of Gaea and Uranus. He married his sister Theia. Their children Helius (the sun), Selene (the moon), and Eos (the dawn).

So you can see it as Draco naming his only son for the Sun, Moon, Day, and Night.

Also, like Albus Severus with his Gryff/Slyth name, Scorpius Hyperion is a mixed bag. Scorpius is associated with the sign of death and Hyperion is associated with nature/sun/life. His son is life and death to him. Everything.

That's how I see it, anyway. :) I don't really know what she was thinking. It's a rather ostentatious name, but so is Draco. :lol:

:tu: Thanks for the fascinating info, SIP!

I would love to think that "Scorpius Hyperion" (However horrid of a name it may be :lol: ) is a reflection that Scorpius is "everything" to Draco, whom I would love to think became a decent father who loved his son the way his parents loved him- unconditionally and above anyone else. It is a rather flamboyant name, but I doubt he'll ever be teased about it; unconventional names seem to be very common in the Wizarding World, and I always got the sense that Ron's s****** had to do with Draco's family being associated with the Dark Arts, as he tells Harry about the Malfoys in PS/SS, rather than because he thought "Draco" sounded funny.

birdi- Thanks for the mythology info. At least we know that Draco and Asteria put some though into their son's name. :lol:

erm... I really like the name Draco... :blush: And Scorpius, after my initial fit of laughter, grew on me too, and I truly like 'Scorpius Hyperion'. I mean, come on, in a world where Batsheeba Babbling counts as normal, and a mother names her daughter 'Nymphadora', that name is rather dignified. In any case, I'd rather name a kid like this than call him 'Hugo'. :lol:

And I think that Draco will make a decent father indeed. I think Lucius didn't do bad as a father either - just that his set of morals was rather rotten. But the problem is - you teach your kid what you believe yourself, it's just like that. Lucius acted with the best intentions, weird as that might seem. Now Draco has the advantage to be more 'sober' than his father in that respect. Humbled by experience, I think he'll continue the 'good parent' thing he experienced himself, while teaching his kid better principles. I think little Scorpius worst flaw in that respect will be that he's likely to be spoilt to the core and as self-important as a pampered only-child with adoring parents can be. Compare young James - and while I don't like him, I think that most people would think he made a decent grown-up. Go, Scorpius, go!!! ;)

Also, like Albus Severus with his Gryff/Slyth name, Scorpius Hyperion is a mixed bag. Scorpius is associated with the sign of death and Hyperion is associated with nature/sun/life. His son is life and death to him. Everything.

Awwwwwww. :) Jo Rowling is so clever on the names ... :rockon:

erm... I really like the name Draco... :blush:

Hey, I like it too. :tu: :)

And I agree with everyone here who has said that Draco would make a good father: 'chastened and humbled', as I believe Jo said recently.

(By the way: is it Astoria or Asteria???? )

Going from what JKR wrote down, it looks like it's Asteria. And since Asteria has a background in Greek Mythology (especially the connection with Hyperion) and is associated with stars, I'm betting its the right spelling.

Draco's wife's name sounded clearly like Astoria (with an O) on the Leaky interview when Jo said it out loud,not Asteria.
When I first read Book 1, 2, 3, 4 and even 5, I never thought I'd feel sorry for Draco. But HBP and DH were awful to read, partly because he's in such a terrible situation- basically forced to plot murder in order to ensure the survival of his family. Repellent as he was, it's hard not to feel some sneaky sympathy for the boy- he was a nasty piece of work, but those two years probably turned him into a nicer person (not a nice person, though, I'm guessing) than his father- something I feel is in evidence on Platform 9 and 3/4 in the epilogue.

It could be either, she changed the star Rastaban and used the name Rabastan, so it's not out of her scope to change spellings. Either way it's a fitting name I think.

I think Draco is such an interesting example of nature and nurture philosophies. He was raised to hate muggles, mudbloods, and blood traitors, but his parents clearly loved him very much. Everything he was taught in school went against his learning at home, yet he clearly had respect for some of his teachers. He seems to be a natural leader and creatively intelligent, but he does some of the stupidest and most cowardly things in the series. That's why I like him--he's an enigma :lol:

i think draco was totally misundersttod...he was under so much pressure from his family and his schoolmates and his family name...

i hope he sees he does'nt have to be what ohters want him to be...

i think draco was totally misundersttod...he was under so much pressure from his family and his schoolmates and his family name...

i hope he sees he does'nt have to be what ohters want him to be...
I agree that he was under pressure from his parents but I don't see that he was particularly pressured by his schoolmates. He seemed to be pretty much who he wanted to be among them - a leader where possible and if they didn't want to be led he didn't seem to worrry about it. He enjoys the adulation of Pansy but doesn't seem to miss it when it's not there. And although he's on good terms with people like Nott and Zabini, he doesn't go out of his way to be their bosom friend. He seems happy enough bossing Crabbe and Goyle about and showing off to anyone who'll listen - as he often does at the Slytherin table.

I think the pressure on him comes from his parents and his desire to live up to the father he idolises and wants to be like. After Lucius is humiliated by Voldemort, I wonder if Draco sees him in the same way any more? I'm sure he still loves him - the family seem close at the end of DH - but I don't think he wants to be like Lucius any more. When he refuses to identlify Harry at Malfoy Manor, knowing that Lucius needs the chance to get back in Voldemort's good books, I think he had stopped thinking "Father is always right" and is making his own choices. And they were much better ones.

Wonderful analysis, horcrux4!

He seems happy enough bossing Crabbe and Goyle about

I would just like to add that, no matter how condescending he is towards these two, he seems to be very fond of them indeed, as his behaviour in the RoR scene shows.

I would just like to add that, no matter how condescending he is towards these two, he seems to be very fond of them indeed, as his behaviour in the RoR scene shows.

I agree with you, Fleur du mal, and to be honest it surprised me. Before DH, he seemed to see them only as convenient stooges so when he tried to rescue Goyle at the risk of his own life, and was anxious about the fate of Crabbe who had just nearly killed him, I thought it was a pleasant change! I can't think of any examples of his concern for them in the previous books, but it's hard to tell whether Harry had never seen it (as the books are from Harry's pov) or whether Draco had undergone even more of a change than we had realised. He certainly had become much less selfish and self-absorbed and perhaps he had learned to value friendship, although Crabbe had rejected their old relationship in the RoR, but Draco was still concerned for him. His attempt to rescue Goyle I thought was admirable and almost Gryffindorish!

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

I don't think that Draco ever actually wanted to be a Death Eater. He was forced because of his father mistakes. Draco was a little too cowardly to ever be one willingly.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

I don't think that Draco choose to live the way he did. I think it was the way he was raised. He was pampered and spoiled and got whatever he wanted. He's like dudley.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.

I think he was afraid he'd never make friends so he would buy people friendsship or threaten them. But i think they were empty threats.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?

I beleive that he's misunderstood. I think given the chance, he could have been a very good ally for Harry.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?

I think and hope that he regrets ever trying o kill him in the first place. I think that there are many choices he regrets. At this time I can't really be specific.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.

I think that Rowling ended that wrong. It's more likely that they would have been friends after that. Maybe not real close friends but close enough to where they would have been involved in major events like birthdays and weddings.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?

He probably got a minstry job and started to try to make amends for his fathers wrong doings. Giving money for things and not wanting things in return.

I beleive that he's misunderstood. I think given the chance, he could have been a very good ally for Harry.

Wasn't he given that chance after Harry saved his life in DH? :err: Instead, we see him try to run back to the Death Eaters...

Wasn't he given that chance after Harry saved his life in DH? :err: Instead, we see him try to run back to the Death Eaters...

I sympathise with Draco here. He was almost killed by both sides in the Battle of Hogwarts. He was just trying to do what he needed to do to live. He may not have acted very nobly, but he became a scared teenager during the battle after Crabbe set off the fiendfyre.
Draco may have talked the talk of a Death Eater just fine, but when push came to shove he couldn't walk the walk. And, since it takes a lot of bravery to do so...I'm not going to hold him accountable here.
My reading of the scene at the Malfoy Manor is that Draco did protect the trio as best he could - his parents and Bella just didn't fall for it.

I sympathise with Draco here. He was almost killed by both sides in the Battle of Hogwarts.

I would add, as a relevant practical factor, that Draco no longer had a wand. He lost Narcissa's in the RoR. He could not fight for either side. Nor was he trying to join the DEs - he was simply trying to keep a DE from killing him (likely because he was still in school uniform, and taken for a defender of the school).

I would add, as a relevant practical factor, that Draco no longer had a wand. He lost Narcissa's in the RoR. He could not fight for either side. Nor was he trying to join the DEs - he was simply trying to keep a DE from killing him (likely because he was still in school uniform, and taken for a defender of the school).

Good point - I just reread that part and still forgot he was wandless :rolleyes:.

Draco was acting like a true Slytherin - looking out only for himself - but I can't hold it against him. In the final battle his loyalty to family over Voldemort and the DE's rang true - all he wanted to do was survive and get back to his family.

Draco was acting like a true Slytherin - looking out only for himself - but I can't hold it against him. In the final battle his loyalty to family over Voldemort and the DE's rang true - all he wanted to do was survive and get back to his family.

Wait...where in the final battle does it ever show him trying to get back to his family? I seem to recall a pretty important scene where it's revealed he stayed behind to try and capture/practically kill Harry in hopes of impressing Voldemort and The Death Eaters. :shrug:

Wait...where in the final battle does it ever show him trying to get back to his family? I seem to recall a pretty important scene where it's revealed he stayed behind to try and capture/practically kill Harry in hopes of impressing Voldemort and The Death Eaters. :shrug:

I'm making a supposition here. After he lost his wand and Crabbe was killed, I think he started thinking of getting away safely. I think his going to the Room of Requirement to try and intercept Harry was his last-gasp effort to redeem himself and his family in the eyes of Voldemort. After that failed, with Harry saving his and Goyle's life to boot, I think his mindset changed. I may also be drawing somewhat of an inference about Draco's mindset from watching Narcissa in the Forest here - I'm assuming his feelings regarding making sure the family is safe mirror hers.

Wait...where in the final battle does it ever show him trying to get back to his family? I seem to recall a pretty important scene where it's revealed he stayed behind to try and capture/practically kill Harry in hopes of impressing Voldemort and The Death Eaters. :shrug:

I recall the same scene. :D In that scene, Vincent Crabbe evinced an interest in capturing or killing Harry. Draco, on the other hand, sounded much like one Severus Snape in an earlier important scene in HBP. He was too busy reminding Crabbe not to hurt or kill Harry (on the Dark Lord's orders, of course) to be of any use to what you are supposing was 'his side'.

I recall the same scene. :D In that scene, Vincent Crabbe evinced an interest in capturing or killing Harry. Draco, on the other hand, sounded much like one Severus Snape in an earlier important scene in HBP. He was too busy reminding Crabbe not to hurt or kill Harry (on the Dark Lord's orders, of course) to be of any use to what you are supposing was 'his side'.

I'm suppose I'm not really trying to argue that Draco is completely, 100% on the Death Eater's side. I just think it's a very big stretch to think he completely redeemed himself and was - or could ever have been - Harry's ally. He's a complete coward who didn't give a hoot about helping anyone but himself, and I don't think he would have minded much if Harry died and Voldemort won in the final battle. As long as he escaped unscathed...

Sometimes I think people give him too much credit, just like they do with Snape. Neither Draco nor Snape are true heroes like Harry, but they do have their positives, I guess. :tu:

I just think it's a very big stretch to think he completely redeemed himself and was - or could ever have been - Harry's ally. He's a complete coward who didn't give a hoot about helping anyone but himself, and I don't think he would have minded much if Harry died and Voldemort won in the final battle. As long as he escaped unscathed...

In the same very important scene we are discussing, Crabbe sets off Fiendfyre. Draco, the coward who would never think of helping anyone but himself, sees that his large, heavy, but completely vulnerable friend Goyle is unconscious. Does he flee for his life from the flames? Um, no. He picks up Goyle and drags him along, in an attempt to rescue his friend. An attempt that would have cost Draco his life, if Harry had not intervened.

I'm suppose I'm not really trying to argue that Draco is completely, 100% on the Death Eater's side. I just think it's a very big stretch to think he completely redeemed himself and was - or could ever have been - Harry's ally. He's a complete coward who didn't give a hoot about helping anyone but himself, and I don't think he would have minded much if Harry died and Voldemort won in the final battle. As long as he escaped unscathed...

Sometimes I think people give him too much credit, just like they do with Snape. Neither Draco nor Snape are true heroes like Harry, but they do have their positives, I guess. :tu:

To quote the book itself - the world isn't divided between good people and Death Eaters. Or Harry-heroes and the rest. I surely don't think of Draco as a hero, but that's not what it's all about, is it? I won't even comment on Snape, because that's for another thread. Sure there are parallels between them - but these are mainly of a narrative nature - 1. JKR chose to put these two in a vicinity, to contrast them, and 2. the story is told through Harry's eyes, and he isn't fond of either of these two, who stand like no others for Harry's experience with and views on 'present time Slytherin'.

I think if the books focus on something, it is the positive side in people, because that's what brings you forward, that is what creates, if not unity, at least a human bond - it is that quality that makes a character like Draco, who's neither friendly with Harry, nor a brave person in general, want to protect Harry in the Malfoy Manor scene. To focus on the negative creates a rift, enmity - I thought the books were a comment on that as the most prevailing problem, both in the series, and life in general.

To focus on the negative creates a rift, enmity - I thought the books were a comment on that as the most prevailing problem, both in the series, and life in general.
I agree, Draco is clearly not exceptionally courageous, but I like him as a character because he acts in a way that is very natural for both his personality and his upbringing. He stands in the gray area between light and dark, as the majority of people in real life do. He isn't nice, but he has good qualities, and he did what he could with the resources available to him. He didn't make the same choices Harry would have made, but he made understandable choices. I like him far better than some on the side of the light who made easy choices and just followed the crowd even if they were brave.

In the same very important scene we are discussing, Crabbe sets off Fiendfyre. Draco, the coward who would never think of helping anyone but himself, sees that his large, heavy, but completely vulnerable friend Goyle is unconscious.

Yes, Goyle, his Death Eater "friend," not Harry. I was talking about how it was unlikely that Draco would ever lift a finger to help HARRY. And though it was somewhat touching in that scene to see Draco worry about his friends, I don't think Goyle or Crabbe were really true FRIENDS at all. They were just Draco's bodyguards... Draco never seemed to value them as anything more than extra protection, which, in my opinion, once again demonstrates what a coward he is. It was good of him to try and save Goyle and Crabbe, but I don't get the feeling that he really loved them or anything, like Harry loved Ron and Hermione. I just don't think Draco wanted to see anyone die - he's not the type of person Voldemort is. But he's no Harry Potter either.

And I'm certainly not trying to divide the world into the good guys and bad guys. I said before that characters like Draco and Snape do have their positives - I don't think either of them are evil, but I believe there's sometimes a bias when analyzing them, especially because they're...well...attractive, at least in the movies. :lol: Please understand I'm not saying anyone specifically on the forum has a bias, I just meant in general. So don't get offended or anything.

I also disagree that Draco wanted to protect Harry in the Manor. Where's the proof of that? He certainly said he "wasn't sure," if it was actually Harry and the gang, but other than that, I saw no effort made by Draco to actually save them after Bellatrix showed up. He didn't say a thing Harry and Ron were locked in the dungeon, nor did he do anything to save Hermione from being tortured. I would save the word "protect" for people like Lupin or Sirius who deserve it.

Draco was a very human character, and I liked that, but I don't think the poor choices he made are excusable.

Yes, Goyle, his Death Eater "friend," not Harry. I was talking about how it was unlikely that Draco would ever lift a finger to help HARRY. And though it was somewhat touching in that scene to see Draco worry about his friends, I don't think Goyle or Crabbe were really true FRIENDS at all. They were just Draco's bodyguards... Draco never seemed to value them as anything more than extra protection, which, in my opinion, once again demonstrates what a coward he is.

You don't consider Draco's decision to risk his life for Goyle evidence that he had some sort of human feelings for him? I thought that scene was a clear demonstration that, whatever we might think of them as people, Draco considered both Crabbe and Goyle his friends. (He was visibly upset at the news that Crabbe had died).

Anyway, I was not addressing your point about Harry, but your point that Draco is a coward. I disagree. It is possible to have courage, and use it for purposes other than helping Harry, and Draco's actions towards Goyle in that scene are an example.

Also, this is the Draco thread. If you care to discuss how some peopel 'overestimate' Snape, there is a thread for him. :)

I suppose it's also possible that when Draco stayed behind in the castle, it wasn't just (or even) to capture Harry, but to avoid having to join the battle on Voldemort's side, which he'd have had to do if he had left with the others. (At least, Voldemort when talking to Lucius mentions that he was expecting Draco to be there and fighting for him.) If Draco was so keen to hand Harry over to Voldemort, why didn't he identify him at Malfoy Manor when he had the chance and must have known it was Harry. (Who else has black hair, glasses and hangs around with Ron & Hermione?) If Draco was avoiding the battle it may not have been for heroic reasons, he may have just not wanted to risk his life in a fight, but on the other hand he could have been refusing to fight for what Voldemort stood for.

You don't consider Draco's decision to risk his life for Goyle evidence that he had some sort of human feelings for him? I thought that scene was a clear demonstration that, whatever we might think of them as people, Draco considered both Crabbe and Goyle his friends. (He was visibly upset at the news that Crabbe had died).


I would call his feelings about Crabbe dying more shocked than upset. I don't think his opinion right there of Crabbe was too high after he used a Dark spell that very nearly killed all of them. I understand that Crabbe was his "friend," but how much of a friend was he really? When we saw Malfoy talking to Crabbe and Goyle (or Harry and Ron disguised), he insulted them a bit and commented a lot on how stupid they were. A think he hung out with them because they were big and mean and could protect him, not because they were close friends. Unfortunately, it seemed to me Draco had very few real friends. In HBP, when his mission was going terribly, he had no one to turn to, no one he could trust. The only person he really told his feelings to wasn't even alive. I felt sorry for him a bit.

I agree that Draco did have some sort of human feelings in him, but I would not use Crabbe's death as an example. Instead, I like to use the scene in Malfoy Manor. He was the one asked to identify the body on the ground as Harry. He knew that if it was Harry, Voldemort would certainly kill him. I think Malfoy knew it was Harry, but chose not to say because he had some human feelings. He and Harry certainly didn't get along well, but I don't think Draco was cruel enough to identify a person so that they may be killed. He was human.

You don't consider Draco's decision to risk his life for Goyle evidence that he had some sort of human feelings for him? I thought that scene was a clear demonstration that, whatever we might think of them as people, Draco considered both Crabbe and Goyle his friends. (He was visibly upset at the news that Crabbe had died).

Anyway, I was not addressing your point about Harry, but your point that Draco is a coward. I disagree. It is possible to have courage, and use it for purposes other than helping Harry, and Draco's actions towards Goyle in that scene are an example.

Also, this is the Draco thread. If you care to discuss how some peopel 'overestimate' Snape, there is a thread for him. :)

I realize this is a Draco thread. I was only using Snape as a very brief example to add to my argument. Nowhere in any of my posts did I analyze him at all. I used him in conjunction with Draco to make my points clearer, just as we're talking about Harry, Crabbe, and Goyle in addition to Draco.

I don't recall him being described as visibly upset because Crabbe died. I recall him coughing and saying Crabbe's name, to which Ron replies "he's dead." Could you post the line where we're shown he's seriously upset he's lost his friend?

I would agree with what deathly721 said about Draco's relationship with Goyle and Crabbe...

Frankly, I'm a bit shocked that you don't think Draco is a coward. He demonstrates this over and over in every single book. And I'm a bit confused about your reasoning. I mentioned before that Draco isn't the type of person to kill/enjoy seeing others being killed. His trying to help Goyle demonstrates that, and shows he does have a good side to him. Like I said before, I don't think he's evil. But does this erase every other bit of cowardice we've seen from him since book one?

Can you give other examples of how Draco ISN'T a coward? I can't think of any yet...

Can you give other examples of how Draco ISN'T a
coward? I can't think of any yet...

How about when he is unable to kill Dumbledore, even when it would mean the death of himself and his parents? Voldemort was actually in Malfoy Manor that day, and he would have killed them in their own house. And yet Draco was unable to kill Dumbledore. I thought it showed that Draco was not bad, and he was not a killer. He is not able to kill Dumbledore even when Fenrir and the others come into the room and urge him to do so.

I also disagree that Draco wanted to protect Harry in the Manor. Where's the proof of that?

The person who wrote the books pretty much said so?

If the question is whether Draco would have committed the murder, my answer is no," Rowling said. "I don't think he would. He had lowered his wand. He was prepared to come over to Dumbledore's side. I hope you see that there's some of that same feeling in Book Seven, he does try to protect Harry. But he's in too deep. Like a lot of characters, he's not a hero. There's a real moral cowardice to Draco. But is he wholly bad? Absolutely not."

That's from the "Dumbledore is Gay" interview (http://www.mtv.com/movies/news/articles/1572399/20071019/story.jhtml) given in late October.

JKR is either talking about Malfoy Manor, when Draco tried not to identify the trio or the RoR where Draco tries to stop Crabbe from killing/hurting Harry. Or even both.

I mentioned before that Draco isn't the type of person to kill/enjoy seeing others being killed.

It is one thing not to like killing and death, and a completely different thing to put one's own neck on the line to prevent the same. I also found Draco brave in HBP. Not in the sense of fearlessness and valor, but in the sense of going on in a bad situation, despite the very great fear he felt. Again, this was directed at a bad aim, but working and succeeding in the face of great fear is courage in my book.

And, as others have pointed out, in the end of HBP Draco was in fear for his life and for the lives of his parents, but could not do the one little thing that would have changed his situation completely, by killing the helpless Dumbledore.

He's not heroically brave like Harry, but there is a lot of room between the main hero and being a coward.

And to answer your question about Draco's alleged cowardice in earlier books - I had not formed so negative an impression, so I am not 100% sure what you are talking about. But I would say that yes, it is fine to ignore all that. The books are books about children who grow up into adulthood over the course of the series. HBP was Draco's big year when a lot of his childhood illusions were shattered, and his own choices involved him for the first time in the dangerous, adult world around him. It is by what he did under those circumstances that I would make a final judgment about his character, not by things he did as a child playing childish games at school.

How about when he is unable to kill Dumbledore, even when it would mean the death of himself and his parents? Voldemort was actually in Malfoy Manor that day, and he would have killed them in their own house. And yet Draco was unable to kill Dumbledore. I thought it showed that Draco was not bad, and he was not a killer. He is not able to kill Dumbledore even when Fenrir and the others come into the room and urge him to do so.

... Okay... but I'm not arguing whether or not Draco is bad.

He doesn't kill Dumbledore because he doesn't have the guts to go through with Voldemort's orders, as he believes they are wrong. Like I said multiple times before, he's not the type of person who enjoys killing. I've said multiple times I don't think he's an evil person. But that doesn't mean he's brave or a hero.

Note that in the quote birdi86 posted, Rowling says "Like a lot of characters, he's not a hero. There's a real moral cowardice to Draco."

So, as to whether he's a coward or not, I guess the "the person who wrote the books pretty much said so."

... Okay... but I'm not arguing whether or not Draco is bad.

He doesn't kill Dumbledore because he doesn't have the guts to go through with Voldemort's orders, as he believes they are wrong. Like I said multiple times before, he's not the type of person who enjoys killing. I've said multiple times I don't think he's an evil person. But that doesn't mean he's brave or a hero.

I think he does. He does know that Voldemort would kill his parents; he knows he has been waiting in the wings to become a death eater for so long and this was his moment of glory; a glory that he actually accused Snape of trying to steal after Sluggy's party and he knows his life at that point would be finished, if he did not say those two words. And yet he cannot take up his wand and say them.

I thought it was because he knew and accepted Dumbledore was right.

Note that in the quote birdi86 posted, Rowling says "Like a lot of characters, he's not a hero. There's a real moral cowardice to Draco."

So, as to whether he's a coward or not, I guess the "the person who wrote the books pretty much said so."

No he's not the hero; that post belongs to Harry in these books and to Snape IMO; but I think, he's not a coward either.

No he's not the hero; that post belongs to Harry in these books and to Snape IMO; but I think, he's not a coward either.

Out of curiousity, what do you think about Rowling basically calling him a coward, then?

Out of curiousity, what do you think about Rowling basically calling him a coward, then?

I don't know. I only know that yes, he was a bit immature initially, but he came through in the end and he grew up.

While I can't speak for Jo, I think, Draco falls short, because we tend to compare him with Harry or someone like that. Draco had 16 years, being brainwashed that pureblood was the best and being a DE was the ultimate glory and from that point he has come along very nicely IMO and there was no cowardice I felt, especially moral cowardice at the end.

I've said multiple times I don't think he's an evil person. But that doesn't mean he's brave or a hero.
I get your point completely, AcidPop, and I have to say I do agree with a lot of the things you have posted before, one of them being this quote.
My thing with Draco is that for me (and keeping it in the HBP and DH books) the main motivations for his actions is fear and self-preservation. Fear of doing something bad, because of the consecuenses. Fear of doing something good because f the consequences.
Yes, sometimes his actions do end up having good consequences (e.g. Harry at The Manor, not killing Dumbledore, etc), but don't motivations count for something?

I also found Draco brave in HBP. Not in the sense of fearlessness and valor, but in the sense of going on in a bad situation, despite the very great fear he felt. Again, this was directed at a bad aim, but working and succeeding in the face of great fear is courage in my book.
See, this is where I have trouble. :shrug:
What is courage then? To me courage involves having a will and having a conviction.
This is a random definition from the internet:
courage n. The state or quality of mind or spirit that enables one to face danger, fear, or vicissitudes with self-possession, confidence, and resolution; bravery.
cowardice n. fear that is not noble in quality, character, purpose, base or mean in the face of danger or pain.
I know that definitions can't possibly encompass all the different aspects of one specific situation, but they help to put my point of view through (when Spanish gets in the way :lol:)
Note that in the quote birdi86 posted, Rowling says "Like a lot of characters, he's not a hero. There's a real moral cowardice to Draco."
:agree: Most definitely.
Moral cowardice is the least debatable of all.

I don't know. I only know that yes, he was a bit immature initially, but he came through in the end and he grew up.

While I can't speak for Jo, I think, Draco falls short, because we tend to compare him with Harry or someone like that. Draco had 16 years, being brainwashed that pureblood was the best and being a DE was the ultimate glory and from that point he has come along very nicely IMO and there was no cowardice I felt, especially moral cowardice at the end.

Exactly. Draco risked too much at the end to be a coward. By pretending to not be able to identify Harry, he played the risk of being caught by Voldemort as a Death Eater trying to walk out. In short, he risked his own life for Harry's.

I think, Draco falls short, because we tend to compare him with Harry or someone like that. Draco had 16 years, being brainwashed that pureblood was the best and being a DE was the ultimate glory and from that point he has come along very nicely IMO and there was no cowardice I felt, especially moral cowardice at the end.

I'm always rather against the argument that people can be brainwashed by their parents (and that somehow excuses what they do). I know in many cases that's it's true - God knows we see examples of it in the real world all the time - but I've known so many people who had awful parents (racist, sexist, alcoholics, etc) who turned out so well.

While we're on that note, lets use Harry as an example again (I know you don't like comparing him with Draco, but...). Harry lost his parents early on, saw a few examples of how they weren't as perfect as he originally thought (Snape's worst memory), and was emotionally abused by the Dursley's for years. But look how he turned out!

It really does vary from person to person, though, and I don't blame people who turn out like their parents. It's hard not to! In a way, I do pity Draco. And you're right - when we look at the circumstances around his childhood, he did turn out pretty good.

I don't know. I only know that yes, he was a bit immature initially, but he came through in the end and he grew up.

While I can't speak for Jo, I think, Draco falls short, because we tend to compare him with Harry or someone like that. Draco had 16 years, being brainwashed that pureblood was the best and being a DE was the ultimate glory and from that point he has come along very nicely IMO and there was no cowardice I felt, especially moral cowardice at the end.

At the end?
"I'm Draco malfoy. I'm Draco Malfoy. I'm on your side!" Draco was on the upper landing, pleading with another masked Death Eater (when the Death Eaters were attacking the students after the Fiendfyre disaster)
What is not moral cowardice about that?
When is time to pick a side, he picks the side that has the upper hand in that instant, regardless of what his "feelings" about it are. He never fully commits to own up to this.

I agree that he has been fed all of this stuff all his life by all of his family.
I also believe there's a bit of hope for him (due to his hesitance for going either side)
Hopefully, after the war, he owned up more to his own opinions than his family's, but through out the books, I think he behaved like he was his father's son more than anything else, sometimes more hesitantly than others.

At the end?
"I'm Draco malfoy. I'm Draco Malfoy. I'm on your side!" Draco was on the upper landing, pleading with another masked Death Eater (when the Death Eaters were attacking the students after the Fiendfyre disaster)
What is not moral cowardice about that?
When is time to pick a side, he picks the side that has the upper hand in that instant, regardless of what his "feelings" about it are. He never fully commits to own up to this.

I agree that he has been fed all of this stuff all his life by all of his family.
I also believe there's a bit of hope for him (due to his hesitance for going either side)
Hopefully, after the war, he owned up more to his own opinions than his family's, but through out the books, I think he behaved like he was his father's son more than anything else, sometimes more hesitantly than others.

There is a point where I would draw the line between being a coward and saving your own life. If Draco hadn't pretended that he was a Death Eater to the other one, he certainly would have ben killed right then and there. A lie like that to protect yourself doesn't show cowardice. What would have been cowardice was if he had let Goyle die in the Room of Requirement instead of going back for him. Even if Goyle wasn't really his close friend like I said before, Malfoy was not so much of a coward that he would let someone die to save his own skin. That took some bravery and raised my opinion of Draco greatly.

Well, basically how I feel about Draco is shown by my Sims 2 game. I created a Harry Potter Neighboorhood, and Hermione was pregnant with Ron, and Draco would RANDOMLY show up, BREAK in their house, and shove Hermione. I find it so odd. He does this like once a week on there.

But, anyways, Draco is kind of being forced into his role as "Death Eater" obviously. I think he secretly longs to have the kind of friends that Harry and Co. has.

There is a point where I would draw the line between being a coward and saving your own life. If Draco hadn't pretended that he was a Death Eater to the other one, he certainly would have been killed right then and there. A lie like that to protect yourself doesn't show cowardice. What would have been cowardice was if he had let Goyle die in the Room of Requirement instead of going back for him. Even if Goyle wasn't really his close friend like I said before, Malfoy was not so much of a coward that he would let someone die to save his own skin. That took some bravery and raised my opinion of Draco greatly.

I refer the quote from the book as a pure example of moral cowardice.
As I said in the page, to me, to fully say he was brave he had to have a conviction, a wilL behind his actions. I can't be sure if he did.

But I do think (from my point of view) that his moral cowardice is very evident. No where in that line shows that he is having courage for his conviction or doing what is right when it was not the easy thing to do.
There were a lot of student in the same position as Draco and neither started to shout "I'm on your side!".
When things get tough, he goes for who has the upper hand, even when he doesn't stands for what that side represents. To me, that's moral cowardice.
"physical" cowardice? Well, that's other thing. He didn't ran away (I'm not sure if he could've anyway), he did protect Harry in the Manor, etc.

Malfoy was not so much of a coward that he would let someone die to save his own skin. That took some bravery and raised my opinion of Draco greatly.
I see your point. Considering the parenting this kid had over all his life, he certainly did something good here.
My point is that to me, this action (his hesitance) was driven of fear, fear of doing something that bad (killing) and what it might meant for him to go on and do it, and fear of not doing it and welcome all the consequences that this may had brought to his family.
I just wouldn't use the word bravery to describe it all.

I think we have to think of what "moral cowardice" means here. It interesting that she specifies just where he lacks courage because I don't think Draco is a complete coward. He went after plenty of fights with Harry and the others even though he had to have known on some level it would only wind up hurting him in the end. One fight ends with him getting beat up by half the Gryffindor Quidditch team and another has him bleeding out on the bathroom floor. He doesn't lack physical courage. (Common sense, yes but not physical courage.)

He tries to save Goyle in the RoR, instead of running like Crabbe did, even though it would have meant dying alongside of Goyle if the Trio hadn't turned around. He's brave enough to risk his life for those that he cares about, definitely.

However, even though he's known since HBP that he is unwilling to carry out Dumbledore's murder, he doesn't reach out for help. Even though it's obvious from the opening of DH that he's disgusted with the murder, he doesn't defect. That, I think, is the moral cowardice that JKR talks about in the interview. He knows these things are wrong but he remains an accessory to them out of fear.

That said, while it would definitely take courage to make a stand like that, I don't think he's necessarily a coward for not doing so. For one thing, he would be not only putting his life on the line but also that of his parents. For another - where he would run? Who would help him? Snape would but Draco thinks that Snape is Voldemort's right hand man. The Order? Maybe but I don't think he'd ever consider that they would trust him. The DA (aka, the kids Draco tormented for seven years)? No. The Trio? Outside of Snape, they're his best hope but I don't think Draco would expect that they would help him and it's not like they were in contact after Dumbledore's death.

The real tragedy of it, is the only person Draco could have trusted to help him was the person he had been assigned to kill. Once Dumbledore died, Draco's options died with him.

As I said before, in this same thread several months ago, I consider Draco a coward for "buying into that racist claptrap for so long and bullying those weaker than him for kicks." Not leaving the DE? Not so much.

I see your point. Considering the parenting this kid had over all his life, he certainly did something good here.
My point is that to me, this action (his hesitance) was driven of fear, fear of doing something that bad (killing) and what it might meant for him to go on and do it, and fear of not doing it and welcome all the consequences that this may had brought to his family.
I just wouldn't use the word bravery to describe it all.

Going into a giant burning room to rescue someone when you could escape without them more easily isn't brave? I'm sorry, I don't understand this at all. He had no fear of killing when he embraced the task Voldemort gave him. He was happy about it.

Going into a giant burning room to rescue someone when you could escape without them more easily isn't brave? I'm sorry, I don't understand this at all. He had no fear of killing when he embraced the task Voldemort gave him. He was happy about it.

He was already IN the burning room, actually. And he was in no way happy about having to kill Dumbledore. Where did you get that from?! He's terrified! He doesn't think he can go through with it! Sure, he brags about it on the train and whatnot, trying to act like he's all that, but deep down, he doesn't want to do it. That's why he didn't kill Dumbledore at the end. He knew it was the wrong thing to do.

And I just wanted to say Chloe, that your example with the Sims is hilarious. :lol:

Well, basically how I feel about Draco is shown by my Sims 2 game. I created a Harry Potter Neighboorhood, and Hermione was pregnant with Ron, and Draco would RANDOMLY show up, BREAK in their house, and shove Hermione. I find it so odd. He does this like once a week on there.


When I read that, I fell to the ground, choking with laughter.

Sims 2 really does tell you much about Harry Potter, don't you agree?

I'm not sure shoving a pregnant woman is something Draco would do, but if it is Hermione, I guess he would.

I think we have to think of what "moral cowardice" means here. It interesting that she specifies just where he lacks courage because I don't think Draco is a complete coward. He went after plenty of fights with Harry and the others even though he had to have known on some level it would only wind up hurting him in the end. One fight ends with him getting beat up by half the Gryffindor Quidditch team and another has him bleeding out on the bathroom floor. He doesn't lack physical courage. (Common sense, yes but not physical courage.)

He tries to save Goyle in the RoR, instead of running like Crabbe did, even though it would have meant dying alongside of Goyle if the Trio hadn't turned around. He's brave enough to risk his life for those that he cares about, definitely.

However, even though he's known since HBP that he is unwilling to carry out Dumbledore's murder, he doesn't reach out for help. Even though it's obvious from the opening of DH that he's disgusted with the murder, he doesn't defect. That, I think, is the moral cowardice that JKR talks about in the interview. He knows these things are wrong but he remains an accessory to them out of fear.
I agree with you wholly up to this. :agree:
That said, while it would definitely take courage to make a stand like that, I don't think he's necessarily a coward for not doing so. For one thing, he would be not only putting his life on the line but also that of his parents. For another - where he would run? Who would help him? Snape would but Draco thinks that Snape is Voldemort's right hand man. The Order? Maybe but I don't think he'd ever consider that they would trust him. The DA (aka, the kids Draco tormented for seven years)? No. The Trio? Outside of Snape, they're his best hope but I don't think Draco would expect that they would help him and it's not like they were in contact after Dumbledore's death.
But not owning up for your misdeeds, it's morally coward to me as well.
Of course, it's not easy. That's part of the whole thing. Yes, he is in to deep by now. There'll be consequences, I know. It's a tough thing, which is were the bravery lies.

Going into a giant burning room to rescue someone when you could escape without them more easily isn't brave? I'm sorry, I don't understand this at all. He had no fear of killing when he embraced the task Voldemort gave him. He was happy about it.
I confuse here, too.
You give two examples of Draco being 'brave': (1) he is brave for doing something that eventually saves someone from death (this one, and Harry at the manor, though you didn't mention it) and (2) brave because he accepts Voldemort's task to kill Dumbledore? :hmm: (at first that is)
I never said or implied that Draco is a coward because he didn't kill Dumbledore ... :no: I'm confuse by what you meant.

But not owning up for your misdeeds, it's morally coward to me as well.
Of course, it's not easy. That's part of the whole thing. Yes, he is in to deep by now. There'll be consequences, I know. It's a tough thing, which is were the bravery lies.

I agree that not owning up to your misdeeds is cowardly but I think Draco would have had to do more than just own his misdeeds at this stage in the game. And the consequences wouldn't be just his alone, they'd fall on his parents as well.

It really frustrates me that his parents didn't show more moral courage. DH made two things obvious to me: 1.) How much Narcissa and Lucius love their son and 2.) How much they drag him down with them.

I'm not sure shoving a pregnant woman is something Draco would do, but if it is Hermione, I guess he would.

Aw, I don't think he would. After all, he doesn't hit her back when she slaps him.

That said, being a Sim he probably can't tell her what a hideous child she and Ron will have and how they should be prevented from spawning for the sake of the Wizarding World and yadda yadda yadda. Shoving's probably all he has.

Erm...can we leave SimDraco behind? Let's keep this to book Draco and his character analysis :).

Out of curiousity, what do you think about Rowling basically calling him a coward, then?

First, it is, as you correctly note, a qualified statement by her. That "moral cowardice" is a part of his makeup, is not precisely, "Draco is a coward". He has also acted bravely, as shown in the books.

Second, I personally could not care less what opinon she expressed of her characters for the purpose of a thread like this. I enjoy discussing what Rowling wrote in her books.

Yes, sometimes his actions do end up having good consequences (e.g. Harry at The Manor, not killing Dumbledore, etc), but don't motivations count for something?

In what way was Draco motivated by fear of the consequences in these two cases? As far as I can see, these are two cases where he stuck his neck out.

In what way was Draco motivated by fear of the consequences in these two cases? As far as I can see, these are two cases where he stuck his neck out.
I'll blame this on the 'lost in translation' thing. :lol:
I never said that Draco was motivated by fear of consequences.
What I did intend to say (sorry if I didn't explained myself well) was that she acts out on fear and sometimes this brings 'good consequences'.

e.g. He fears killing Dumbledore because of what it means doing it, he fears not killing Dumbledore for what it may mean NOT doing it. His hesitance leads to something good, not killing Dumbledore.

I was just trying to show that his actions do end up leading to good thing sometimes, but what were the motivations behind them? That can be debatable. Was he doing it because of fear or was his doing it because for a righteous reason?

First, it is, as you correctly note, a qualified statement by her. That "moral cowardice" is a part of his makeup, is not precisely, "Draco is a coward". He has also acted bravely, as shown in the books.
Second, I personally could not care less what opinon she expressed of her characters for the purpose of a thread like this. I enjoy discussing what Rowling wrote in her books.
I think we are all discussing what IS in the books. It's just different interpretations and thoughts come out of that.

I agree that not owning up to your misdeeds is cowardly but I think Draco would have had to do more than just own his misdeeds at this stage in the game. And the consequences wouldn't be just his alone, they'd fall on his parents as well.
I agree, yet one doesn't invalid the other point.
Yes, it's a tough position to be in.
The Dumbledore thing is not the only example. He keeps repeating this cycle until his last scene in DH, which is the one quote I posted above.

It really frustrates me that his parents didn't show more moral courage. DH made two things obvious to me: 1.) How much Narcissa and Lucius love their son and 2.) How much they drag him down with them. I do agree on that.

I'm always rather against the argument that people can be brainwashed by their parents (and that somehow excuses what they do). I know in many cases that's it's true - God knows we see examples of it in the real world all the time - but I've known so many people who had awful parents (racist, sexist, alcoholics, etc) who turned out so well.

I would imagine, in those cases, these people had other positive influences in their lives. Draco was sorted into Slytherin and hung out with like minded peers. He could see society as a whole approved of his father. (From the way important people repected Lucius). I don't see where Draco would get his eyes opened, before he started to see firsthand what Voldemort was like/about. (Which is precisely the point at which he starts to be interesting.)

The Potterverse as drawn in the books seems to me to pretty much be in a state of civil war at times, and Draco is initially loyal to his side. It is the evil side, we can see that, but I don't think Draco as a child, does. Even his decision to become a Death Eater is in a sense an act of courage. It seems that from his point of view, he volunteered.

While we're on that note, lets use Harry as an example again (I know you don't like comparing him with Draco, but...). Harry lost his parents early on, saw a few examples of how they weren't as perfect as he originally thought (Snape's worst memory), and was emotionally abused by the Dursley's for years. But look how he turned out!

I do not see the relevance of the comparison. Their life stories are so wildly different. Draco was brought up by loving parents, in whom he would therefore naturally repose a great deal of trust and respect. Harry was raised by grudging relatives who mistreated him. Of course Draco wanted to follow in their footsteps, and of course he initially shared the views they endeavored to pass on to him.

A comparison I find much more relevant is to James Potter. A comparison, by the way, I feel Rowling invites us to make in the scene of "The Prince's Tale" in which James echoes the line we heard Draco utter in PS/SS.

"imagine being in Hufflepuff, I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?"

"Who wants to be in Slytherin, I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?"

Here I see great similarities in their life circumstances. Both raised by loving, wealthy, Pureblood parents that spoiled them. James, like Draco, wanted to be just like his father from before he came to school. James, like Draco, could have been a deal more kind to his fellow students. James, like Draco, was Sorted into the House of his parents, and made friends there. James, like Draco, joined the militant group promoting the politics of his parents. James died for his family. Draco would have died for Goyle, without Harry's help.

The difference? The path on which James had been set before he ever came to Hogwarts, just like Draco, by these identical factors, happened to be the right one. Does that make him much better than Draco, or merely a good deal more lucky?

I think you had it right before the edit. :lol:
I didn't post the quote you assigned to me, :D

e.g. He fears killing Dumbledore because of what it means doing it, he fears not killing Dumbledore for what it may mean NOT doing it. His hesitance leads to something good, not killing Dumbledore.

For those that consider interview statements authoritative, Rowling has stated that Draco would not have killed Dumbledore.

I arrived at the same conclusion on my own. I thought Draco had been persuaded by Dumbledore's eloquence that he was indeed not a killer. In addition to his actions on the tower, I thought Harry's pity for him at the end of HBP indicated Harry had reached the same conclusion as I. Harry makes a lot of mistakes and misjudgments, but I expect him to get things right in the end because he's the hero and he is learning and growing up in the books, and this was his last word on the subject. And I thought the Malfoy last name was leading to that moment on the tower. "Bad faith", in Existentialist philosophy (I'm no expert, this is my rough understanding of the notion), is the self delusion that one 'has no other choice' than to live life as someone else insists one should. I thought this was clearly Draco's moment of realizing that, that he did not want to be a Death Eater or kill people, whatever he had been taught by his parents, and whatever Voldemort was threatening him with.

I also don't see what he had to fear from killing Dumbledore that could compare to what he had to fear from failure.

I think you had it right before the edit. :lol:
I didn't post the quote you assigned to me, :D


:blush: :rotfl: I fixed it.

However, even though he's known since HBP that he is unwilling to carry out Dumbledore's murder, he doesn't reach out for help.

I saw Draco as having an epiphany on the Tower, with the able assistance of Dumbledore. When he was crying in the bathrooms earlier in HBP about not being able to do it, I think he was meaning not his moral revulsion for the act required of him, but his actual, practical inability to carry it out successfully without the help of Death Eaters he could not smuggle in because he was not getting the cabinet fixed.

He should arguably have defected in DH, yes, but as you point out, he had his parents to fear for as well. Rowling chooses not to put any of her 'good guys' in such a dilemma. Well, she comes close in Xenophilius, who starts out defying the bad guys by printing the real news in the Quibbler, and caves in for fear his only daughter may be tortured or killed. But we don't get a drama in which Voldemort nabs Ginny and demands the return of his cup in exchange for her life, or any such. Harry only proves he is willing to sacrifice his own life for the greater good, not those of people he loves.

Now, this quote was mine. :D For those that consider interview statements authoritative, Rowling has stated that Draco would not have killed Dumbledore. I arrived at the same conclusion on my own.
I did to. Never said otherwise.

I also don't see what he had to fear from killing Dumbledore that could compare to what he had to fear from failure.

Well, he knew that he didn't wanted to do it, as you also agree. Doing something against your will can be fearful too.
I'm not comparing fears. Fear is fear. I'm just saying that though he was resolved that he didn't like to do the DE's deeds anymore, he never stood up for his beliefs, and played it safe, never really turning aside, and in that sense, he is morally coward to me.

I feel like I'm repeating myself, :shrug:, maybe because I am ... :lol:


He should arguably have defected in DH, yes, but as you point out, he had his parents to fear for as well.
Everyone had their respective fears by then. He made the choice of not really making a choice, if that makes sense, and go from one side to another depending the situation.
Rowling chooses not to put any of her 'good guys' in such a dilemma.
:wow: Everyone had a dilemma, maybe not the same one, but everyone had something at stake here.
Well, she comes close in Xenophilius, who starts out defying the bad guys by printing the real news in the Quibbler, and caves in for fear his only daughter may be tortured or killed. But we don't get a drama in which Voldemort nabs Ginny and demands the return of his cup in exchange for her life, or any such. Harry only proves he is willing to sacrifice his own life for the greater good, not those of people he loves.
I disagree. Harry never wants to risk anyone else than himself, all throughout the books. He feels guilty about it numerous of times, that people are dying to help him. The greater good does includes the people he loves. But anyway, Harry for another thread.
Though I agree that it is easier to judge the 'bad guy', and believe me, I'm no Draco fan, but when I think that people beating him more than deserve I'm the first one to say something, :lol:, but only to a certain extent.

"I'm Draco malfoy. I'm Draco Malfoy. I'm on your side!" Draco was on the upper landing, pleading with another masked Death Eater (when the Death Eaters were attacking the students after the Fiendfyre disaster)
What is not moral cowardice about that?

I call it common sense. Draco was unarmed, and threatened by an armed combatant. He could beg for his life, or die. Further, his death would serve no purpose.

Yeah, I never thought that was cowardice either. Challenging the Death Eater at that point would have been just plain stupid. If Draco wanted to be useful, he could have nabbed the DE's wand after he'd been stunned and run into battle.

But going into a fight unarmed is just suicide and would have made the Trio's sacrifice to rescue him pointless.

That said, I didn't think Draco meant anything he said to the DE. It's not like he had some burst of Death Eater pride and wanted to share! He just didn't want to get killed.

I call it common sense. Draco was unarmed, and threatened by an armed combatant. He could beg for his life, or die. Further, his death would serve no purpose.

That's exactly how I saw it. Being brave doesn't always mean fighting back and standing up to people more powerful. In this case, it would be suicide for Draco. And I'm sure if a member of the Order had come up to him and tried to get him, he would have told them he was on their side. At that point, Draco had no said, he was a pretty weak wizard, and all he cared about was surviving. There is nothing cowardly about wanting to live at all.

Wasn't he given that chance after Harry saved his life in DH? :err: Instead, we see him try to run back to the Death Eaters...

First, Draco didn't have a wand, he would have been useless. Second, if he would have been seen helping Harry by any DEs, they probably would have executed him immediately.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.

Any child would have grown-up having skewed morals.

I call it common sense. Draco was unarmed, and threatened by an armed combatant. He could beg for his life, or die.
Further, his death would serve no purpose. Common sense it's not courage. Anyway, as I said, to me, courage must have and underlined motivation and standpoint.
I understand his struggle in this moment. It must have been terrible.
He did what he felt he had to do. I understand that, but it doesn't change my mind.
Yeah, I never thought that was cowardice either. Challenging the Death Eater at that point would have been just plain stupid. If Draco wanted to be useful, he could have nabbed the DE's wand after he'd been stunned and run into battle.
But going into a fight unarmed is just suicide and would have made the Trio's sacrifice to rescue him pointless.
I did say moral cowardice.
That said, I didn't think Draco meant anything he said to the DE. It's not like he had some burst of Death Eater pride and wanted to share! He just didn't want to get killed.
I don't think he meant it either, which only enforces my previous point.
Any child would have grown-up having skewed morals.
I'll change that for any child 'could' have grown-up with skewed morals, but yes, you are right.

That said, I didn't think Draco meant anything he said to the DE. It's not like he had some burst of Death Eater pride and wanted to share! He just didn't want to get killed.

Exactly. He's a coward. :rotfl: It doesn't matter whether or not he's standing up for what he believes in, or protecting those around him. He just wants to escape the battle.

And there were people fighting without wands in the final battle, what with dropping crystal balls and mandrakes on the Death Eaters heads. :lol: Draco could have made himself useful if he wanted to, but he didn't.

*shrugs* You say coward, I say "not stupid".

Just like I don't think Harry was a coward for not rescuing Snape from Nagini.

Though, I guess from some definitions, he was.

Common sense it's not courage.

I did not say Draco was brave to prevent his own death, I said he was sensible. In my opinion, that scene illustrates neither courage nor cowardice (of any sort) on Draco's part. It just shows he is sensible and lacks a death wish.

Just like I don't think Harry was a coward for not rescuing Snape from Nagini.

Though, I guess from some definitions, he was.

I believe that happened too quickly for Harry to do anything.

In any case, jumping out right in front of Voldemort before having a plan could have ruined everything.

I believe that happened too quickly for Harry to do anything.

In any case, jumping out right in front of Voldemort before having a plan could have ruined everything.

At this point in the story though, would Harry have really risked his own life for Snape?? He still thinks (at this point in the story) that Snape is a traitor to Dumbledore.

My opinion of the bottom line: The opportunity to do anything would have never really crossed Harry's mind in the first place.

At the end?
"I'm Draco malfoy. I'm Draco Malfoy. I'm on your side!" Draco was on the upper landing, pleading with another masked Death Eater (when the Death Eaters were attacking the students after the Fiendfyre disaster)
What is not moral cowardice about that?
When is time to pick a side, he picks the side that has the upper hand in that instant, regardless of what his "feelings" about it are. He never fully commits to own up to this.

I don't know if I'd consider Draco's attempt to make the Death Eater believe he was a Death Eater a cowardly choice or a brave one. It reminds me of how Harry pretended to be a Slytherin in DH when he was captured. It's sensible, but not cowardly.

It could also be seen that his behavior in that scene you provided showed his sense of self-preservation, a noted quality of Slytherins.

A comparison I find much more relevant is to James Potter. A comparison, by the way, I feel Rowling invites us to make in the scene of "The Prince's Tale" in which James echoes the line we heard Draco utter in PS/SS.

While the lines that are shown in TPT are similar to Draco's lines, I don't think there is a strong similarity between James and Draco. I always found Regulus to be really similar to Draco, but maybe I'm the only one. :whistle:


Both grew up in pureblood families
The family they grew up in were well-known supporters of pureblood supremacy
Both were sorted into the house that their families supported
Both were Slytherin Seekers
Both were excited to be Death Eaters
Both had people/ a creature (no pun intended) put in danger because of Voldemort
Both regretted becoming Death Eaters

Here I see great similarities in their life circumstances.

They both did have similar circumstances, but IMO that doesn't make a strong enough comparison. Had they made very similar choices (which they did not), then I would agree with you.

James, like Draco, joined the militant group promoting the politics of his parents.

There isn't any canon that says James' parents supported the Order of the Phoenix.

They both did have similar circumstances, but IMO that doesn't make a strong enough comparison. Had they made very similar choices (which they did not), then I would agree with you.


They made the same choice, if you couch it in generic terms. To fight for the side in the war which their respective family upbringings had told them was the right side. For James that meant joining the Order; for Draco, that was becoming a Death Eater.

Draco changed his mind, which James never did. But the reasons which I believe caused Draco to change his mind would not be applicable to James. (Namely, realizing his family had led him astray).

They made the same choice, if you couch it in generic terms. To fight for the side in the war which their respective family upbringings had told them was the right side. For James that meant joining the Order; for Draco, that was becoming a Death Eater.

Yes, there is that, but then there are other things in the series as well. Draco was prejudiced against blood traitors, muggleborns, Muggles and half-breeds but James was not. Draco ridiculed Ron for being poor and we don't see James doing that, ever. On the contrary, James befriended a person that wore shabby clothes.

The similarities they had in their upbringing point out there differences more than their similarities, IMO. It showed how different people can turn out to be despite similar behavior and childhoods.

I see a bigger comparison between Draco and Regulus - as I mentioned in my last post - and James and Sirius.

At this point in the story though, would Harry have really risked his own life for Snape?? He still thinks (at this point in the story) that Snape is a traitor to Dumbledore.

My opinion of the bottom line: The opportunity to do anything would have never really crossed Harry's mind in the first place.

Harry would never have tried to rescue Snape, he killed Dumbledore and help kill his parents. He wouldn't try to rescue Bella either as the killer of Sirius. Harry saw Draco NOT kill Dumbledore when he had the chance and he saw Draco NOT give him away a the Manor - I think Harry understood there was a lot of good in Draco.

I don't know if I'd consider Draco's attempt to make the Death Eater believe he was a Death Eater a cowardly choice or a brave one. It reminds me of how Harry pretended to be a Slytherin in DH when he was captured. It's sensible, but not cowardly.

It could also be seen that his behavior in that scene you provided showed his sense of self-preservation, a noted quality of Slytherins.

But when you put self-preservation above all other things, I consider that cowardice. The whole Malfoy family did it until the end. :shrug:
I'm not saying that Draco should've stood wandless and try to take him on and tackle him. That wouldn't have been brave, that would've been foolish (who knows, though). I agree with that. I do the point, which would also apply to Harry if he was to attempt saving Snape from Nagini. :shrug:

As I say before, to me courage is a decision, an act of will in tough situations, with limits of course, without having to recklessly crazy about it.
To me, Draco never quite did that, but I understand that it is a matter of perspective. ;)

Yes, there is that, but then there are other things in the series as well. Draco was prejudiced against blood traitors, muggleborns, Muggles and half-breeds but James was not.

James revealed himself to be prejudiced against Slytherins, on the Hogwarts Express in the scene I cited. He mocked a boy he knew nothing about simply because he expressed an interest in that House. Both boys learned some prejudices at home, it would appear. At any rate, in generic terms you are simply asserting that Draco adopted the views of his family. That's what it means to be on 'their' side.

Draco ridiculed Ron for being poor and we don't see James doing that, ever.

I don't see the difference between mocking someone for poverty, which they cannot help, or mocking them for an odd name or their looks, which they also cannot help.

To me the key difference between James and Draco seems to be the families they were born into. Their choices strike me as quite similar (until Draco starts to see the wrongness of the 'side' he was taught to prefer by his parents).

I'm always rather against the argument that people can be brainwashed by their parents (and that somehow excuses what they do). I know in many cases that's it's true - God knows we see examples of it in the real world all the time - but I've known so many people who had awful parents (racist, sexist, alcoholics, etc) who turned out so well.

I would disagree. Children are to a great extent influenced by their parents, especially if the said parents are loving towards their kids. Then the kids grow up thinking, their parents are always right. Draco had no reason to question his parents until 6th year when he was given a task that was impossible to finish.

He was loved unconditionally by his parents and he never felt his father or mother may be wrong, because the circles he moved in too, expressed the same opinion.

And from that he has come to a place where he puts down his wand, is in my opinion only brave. There are all kinds of bravery, but Draco was attempting the toughest of the lot; to go against his father in principle (and his parents were very loving too which I think makes it more difficult) and he succeeded when he could not kill Dumbledore. Where was the cowardice in all that? And moral cowardice too?

While we're on that note, lets use Harry as an example again (I know you don't like comparing him with Draco, but...). Harry lost his parents early on, saw a few examples of how they weren't as perfect as he originally thought (Snape's worst memory), and was emotionally abused by the Dursley's for years. But look how he turned out!

Yes, Harry did turn out well and once he entered the WW, he was powerfully motivated to stay with the Light because his parents were killed by Voldemort and all the suffering he had until then; he was very suppressed as a child, was because of him. Harry would never join with Voldemort; Draco had nothing like that, no motivation like that; in fact he had the opposite, he was told, he would lose his parents if he did not kill Dumbledore and yet he was unable to.

It really does vary from person to person, though, and I don't blame people who turn out like their parents. It's hard not to! In a way, I do pity Draco. And you're right - when we look at the circumstances around his childhood, he did turn out pretty good.

His childhood was perfect; that was why it was difficult to break out of it. He was loved and cherished as a child; he had to come out of that and turn against his parents psycologically. And IMO he did it too!

posted by GinnyIsGenius

DH, The Elder Wand"I'm Draco malfoy. I'm Draco Malfoy. I'm on your side!" Draco was on the upper landing, pleading with another masked Death Eater (when the Death Eaters were attacking the students after the Fiendfyre disaster)

What is not moral cowardice about that?
When is time to pick a side, he picks the side that has the upper hand in that instant, regardless of what his "feelings" about it are. He never fully commits to own up to this.

I agree that he has been fed all of this stuff all his life by all of his family.
I also believe there's a bit of hope for him (due to his hesitance for going either side)
Hopefully, after the war, he owned up more to his own opinions than his family's, but through out the books, I think he behaved like he was his father's son more than anything else, sometimes more hesitantly than others.

I think I agree with zigirnius when she says he was sensible and not a coward. And with due respect to Jo, I dislike the word moral. I was brought up in an environment where talking to a boy was immoral (*rolls eyes*). I would not set much store by that word.

posted by zigirnius
A comparison I find much more relevant is to James Potter. A comparison, by the way, I feel Rowling invites us to make in the scene of "The Prince's Tale" in which James echoes the line we heard Draco utter in PS/SS.

PS/SS"imagine being in Hufflepuff, I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?"


DH"Who wants to be in Slytherin, I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?"


Here I see great similarities in their life circumstances. Both raised by loving, wealthy, Pureblood parents that spoiled them. James, like Draco, wanted to be just like his father from before he came to school. James, like Draco, could have been a deal more kind to his fellow students. James, like Draco, was Sorted into the House of his parents, and made friends there. James, like Draco, joined the militant group promoting the politics of his parents. James died for his family. Draco would have died for Goyle, without Harry's help.

The difference? The path on which James had been set before he ever came to Hogwarts, just like Draco, by these identical factors, happened to be the right one. Does that make him much better than Draco, or merely a good deal more lucky?

I agree. Both of them followed their parents who loved them. Only James never needed to re-evaluate his choices, while Draco did and he did it right in the end IMO.

James revealed himself to be prejudiced against Slytherins, on the Hogwarts Express in the scene I cited. He mocked a boy he knew nothing about simply because he expressed an interest in that House. Both boys learned some prejudices at home, it would appear. At any rate, in generic terms you are simply asserting that Draco adopted the views of his family. That's what it means to be on 'their' side.

I don't see the difference between mocking someone for poverty, which they cannot help, or mocking them for an odd name or their looks, which they also cannot help.

To me the key difference between James and Draco seems to be the families they were born into. Their choices strike me as quite similar (until Draco starts to see the wrongness of the 'side' he was taught to prefer by his parents).

Technically you can compare any two characters and come up with similarities. For example, Snape and Riddle had striking similarities in their youth. Draco and Regulus as well.

The thing about Draco was his uniqeness, he really wasn't like anyone else overall, imo. He was very wealthy and he liked to flaunt his wealth. He was very interested in having friends that shared a similar social status and he liked to be a leader. Unfortunately, Draco could only lead the weaker boys of his friends; both Nott and Zabini defied his attempts early on in that regard. Draco carried on anyway, using Snape, his father and every other means within his power to get his way. However, there was another side to Draco as well, he was full of love compassion for his friends and family as shown in DH and even if his plans were not always well executed, he did try to protect those he loved. In addition, he tried to protect Harry, his enemy, which was quite admirable.

i think draco is juss really misunderstood. Like he wants to be a death Eater..or he likes the idea of being a death eater but now that hes experiencing it...he wants out. its to much for him. poor him.

im new...so bear with me if im doing something wrong.

But when you put self-preservation above all other things, I consider that cowardice. The whole Malfoy family did it until the end. :shrug:
I'm not saying that Draco should've stood wandless and try to take him on and tackle him. That wouldn't have been brave, that would've been foolish (who knows, though). I agree with that. I do the point, which would also apply to Harry if he was to attempt saving Snape from Nagini. :shrug:

As I say before, to me courage is a decision, an act of will in tough situations, with limits of course, without having to recklessly crazy about it.
To me, Draco never quite did that, but I understand that it is a matter of perspective. ;)

I agree with you assessment on courage. I'm not saying Draco was courageous - he was just doing something that would save himself. I personally would find it more admirable if he had - considering he was in the middle of a war - fought for the right side, but that's just me.

James revealed himself to be prejudiced against Slytherins, on the Hogwarts Express in the scene I cited.

James didn't want to be in Slytherin and said he'd rather leave than be in there. Having a personal opinion on which house one desires to be in, IMO, is not prejudice. It's an opinion. A person could draw the similarities between Draco and Ron and Draco and Hermione because both Ron and Hermione agreed that they would have rather left than be sorted into Slytherin. Even Harry didn't want to be in the house.

He mocked a boy he knew nothing about simply because he expressed an interest in that House.

"Mocked" Snape? He turned to Snape and Lily and said "Slytherin" and then turned back to Sirius and told him that he would have rather left than be sorted into Slytherin.

I don't see the difference between mocking someone for poverty, which they cannot help, or mocking them for an odd name or their looks, which they also cannot help.

James did make fun of Snape's name, yes. The only time I can think of that James ever ridiculed Snape for his looks was in the Marauder's Map which I don't find a reliable source for a person's character.

I don't think James' dislike for Snape was purely based on Snape's looks. I always got the impression that Snape's attraction to the Dark Arts was a major factor into James' behavior, along with Snape's friendship with Lily.

To me the key difference between James and Draco seems to be the families they were born into. Their choices strike me as quite similar (until Draco starts to see the wrongness of the 'side' he was taught to prefer by his parents).

Similar in opposite ways, yes. But, IMO, it's a very superficial comparison. Comparisons based on that could be made for almost every character, despite their complete differences.

i think draco is juss really misunderstood. Like he wants to be a death Eater..or he likes the idea of being a death eater but now that hes experiencing it...he wants out. its to much for him. poor him.

im new...so bear with me if im doing something wrong.

:welcome: Ginny_Malfoy! I actually see Draco as pretty misunderstood. Actually, I feel a bit sorry for him - the same way I feel pity for Regulus.

I don’t think that calling Draco a coward for putting self preservation first (on certain occasions only) is a clever idea. If you scan the canon deeply, almost any character can be shown to have acted in a cowardly manner on certain occasions.

When he was taken into the forbidden forest (year1) Draco was initially afraid of the unknown dangers it may contain. But he quickly became cheerful enough to play a trick upon Nev. Later, when he encountered actual danger, he screamed and ran away quickly. Harry, IMO should have done the same but he was paralyzed.

But when his friend’s life was in danger(year 7), Draco choose not to run and save his own life. He tried to save Goyle (who informed that he’s no longer Draco’s friend a moment before) and climbed into Harry’s broom only after Goyle was taken by Ron.

Draco is not a character who would jump into unknown danger for the sake of ‘Greater Good’ but he certainly displayed bravery when his family and friends were threatened.

I disagree with the idea that he was a weak Wizard. He was very resourceful and had a cool calculating mind. He was the best Occlumens among the students. His grades were not far behind Hermione’s (the fact that he could not beat Hermione was a big disappointment to Draco and a big deal for Ron) and he had enough charisma as a leader. DD made him a prefect probably because he qualified better than others (mainly in academic level).

Anyway, IMO we should not call Draco a coward.



What is cowardice? But the body's wisdom of its weakness. What is bravery? But the body's wisdom of its strength. The coward and the hero march together within every man. So to call one man coward, or another brave, merely serves to indicate the possibilities of their achieving the opposite.

To me, moral cowardice is in your choices, physical cowardice is in your actions. Draco showed both kinds of courage when he chose to rescue Goyle in the RoR. He showed, I think, moral courage when he didn't kill Dumbledore despite being under heavy pressure to do so. He also showed moral courage when he refused to identify Harry in Malfoy Manor, despite the fact that Voldemort would have reinstated his father if he had captured Harry. But it's hard to distinguish between what is cowardly and what is just sensible in life-threatening situations, like when he came across the DE in the battle. (He had no wand to defend himself and would have been killed to no purpose.) Are we saying that when Harry was captured by Fenrir he should have said, "Yes, I am Harry Potter. Take me to Voldemort."? It would have been foolish and pointless. We don't consider it cowardly.

I think in most of DH Draco is just surviving as best he can, but when he has the opportunity to make choices he makes brave ones.

:tu: horcrux4! Wonderfully and emphatically argued :)

Technically you can compare any two characters and come up with similarities. For example, Snape and Riddle had striking similarities in their youth. Draco and Regulus as well.

Because JKR intended those comparisons just as she intended us to compare James and Draco.

Because JKR intended those comparisons just as she intended us to compare James and Draco.

And they IMO are remarkably similar in their younger days, but ultimately Draco grew up and made some tough choices, but right ones IMO.

James did make fun of Snape's name, yes. The only time I can think of that James ever ridiculed Snape for his looks was in the Marauder's Map which I don't find a reliable source for a person's character.

I found it consistent with the portrayal of the Marauders elsewhere, so I see no reason to suppose that the Map misrepresented what "Prongs" would have had to say. At any rate, you can certainly not deny that he made fun of Snape's name, which he can help no more than his looks. Just as Ron cannot help being from a poor family, which Draco mocks.

"Mocked" Snape? He turned to Snape and Lily and said "Slytherin" and then turned back to Sirius and told him that he would have rather left than be sorted into Slytherin.

If he quietly expressed his opinion to Sirius, that would be one thing. But he pointedly attracts the attention of someone who has already expressed an opinion, and then ostentatiously turns away from him to denigrate that opinion.

At any rate, while it is true any characters can be compared, the fact that, taking out the name of the House, Rowling has James and Draco use identical phrasing, is not a coincidence. It is an invitation to think about these particular characters together. I have, and I am just relaying the similarities I noticed, and the meaning I ascribe to them.

There is one other point in the series where these two characters are also discussed. Dumbledore likens the Harry/Draco and Snape/James relationships. (With the names in the order listed).

"Quirrell said Snape --"

"Professor Snape, Harry."

"Yes, him -- Quirrell said he hates me because he hated my father. Is that true?"

"Well, they did rather detest each other. Not unlike yourself and Mr. Malfoy.

We jump to the conclusion that Harry and James are the best match here. But in terms of background and life experience, the things we now know about all four of the characters, in terms of the way they acted in their respective trips on the train, it is Snape who better parallels Harry. Which leaves Draco and James.

There is one other point in the series where these two characters are also discussed. Dumbledore likens the Harry/Draco and Snape/James relationships. (With the names in the order listed).

"Quirrell said Snape --"

"Professor Snape, Harry."

"Yes, him -- Quirrell said he hates me because he hated my father. Is that true?"

"Well, they did rather detest each other. Not unlike yourself and Mr. Malfoy.

We jump to the conclusion that Harry and James are the best match here. But in terms of background and life experience, the things we now know about all four of the characters, in terms of the way they acted in their respective trips on the train, it is Snape who better parallels Harry. Which leaves Draco and James.

I didn't jump to the conclusion you indicated at all. The only thing that quote says is that the hatred between James and Snape matched the Hatred that was felt between Harry and Draco. It does not indicate a single other thing. Anything else someone construes that quote to say is a product of the imagination, invented by the interpreter beause it says nothing more than that.

In an example - does Harry thinking in HBP that he hates Snape as much as he hates Voldemort mean that we are to believe that Voldemort and Snape are the same? I could certainly find many ways in which they are similar - but JKR does not write each sentence for us to run off and wildly make a myriad of unfounded conclusions merely because two people are named in the same sentence.

Draco was not like any other character in the book - in total. He was a budding death eater like Snape in his youth, but he made better choices in that regard than Snape did. Draco fought with Harry, like James fought with Snape, and Draco attempted dark curses against Harry like Snape did against James during their battles as enemies - but Draco was not universally unpopular as Snape had been; crowds did not cheer when Draco was on the losing end so the situation was different overall. Draco called Hermione a mudblood like Snape called Lily a mudblood, but Draco and Hermione were not friends. Draco was wealthy and from a dark arts interested family - so was Sirius, but Sirius rejected it, Draco did not. Draco was great at Quidditch, so was Harry, but Draco was not above cheating - Harry didn't seek to cheat. Draco was a good student, so was Hermione; yet Draco continually came up short in comparison.

Thus, we can make all kinds of comparisons, but in the end, Draco was his own person, not directly comparable to anyone in any way, imo - there were always vivid distinctions. His unique character is what made him an outstanding read and a great addition to the series. To indicate that JKR simply re-invented characters to mimic others, devalues the brilliance of each of their individual highlights. Points of similarity exist between all of the characters in the world of magic, they all cast spells or they are squibs - but there the similarity ends.

I found it consistent with the portrayal of the Marauders elsewhere, so I see no reason to suppose that the Map misrepresented what "Prongs" would have had to say.

My point was that the voice in the map doesn't represent a person's personality overall. James could have been different as an adult than he was when he made the map. Remus certainly was different from the voice in the map.

At any rate, you can certainly not deny that he made fun of Snape's name, which he can help no more than his looks. Just as Ron cannot help being from a poor family, which Draco mocks.

I am not denying that. I just seriously doubt that James treated Snape the way he did simply because of his name. Their animosity ran deep, so I doubt James only disliked Snape because of his nickname and physical features.

If he quietly expressed his opinion to Sirius, that would be one thing. But he pointedly attracts the attention of someone who has already expressed an opinion, and then ostentatiously turns away from him to denigrate that opinion.

Yes, but there isn't anything that even hints that James purposely tried to hurt Snape at all. So I disagree with you.

At any rate, while it is true any characters can be compared, the fact that, taking out the name of the House, Rowling has James and Draco use identical phrasing, is not a coincidence. It is an invitation to think about these particular characters together. I have, and I am just relaying the similarities I noticed, and the meaning I ascribe to them.

I am aware of that, but I see them overall as opposites. While they may have had similar paths (but different since James chose the order and Draco chose the Death Eaters), their character was different.

Almost everyone can be compared in the series based on the choices that they made. I would argue that Voldemort and Harry could be compared or Snape and Voldemort could be compared, but their personalities and overall character is different, IMO. That's how I see Draco and James. Regardless of the family they grew up in and the circumstances they had, they still had the choice to make the choices they did, and I find that telling about their personalities.

We jump to the conclusion that Harry and James are the best match here. But in terms of background and life experience, the things we now know about all four of the characters, in terms of the way they acted in their respective trips on the train, it is Snape who better parallels Harry. Which leaves Draco and James.

Actually, Snape and Draco could be compared, too. They both joined the Death Eaters, had an attraction to the Dark Arts and later felt remorse for joining the Death Eaters.

Draco was not like any other character in the book - in total. He was a budding death eater like Snape in his youth, but he made better choices in that regard than Snape did. Draco fought with Harry, like James fought with Snape, and Draco attempted dark curses against Harry like Snape did against James during their battles as enemies - but Draco was not universally unpopular as Snape had been; crowds did not cheer when Draco was on the losing end so the situation was different overall. Draco called Hermione a mudblood like Snape called Lily a mudblood, but Draco and Hermione were not friends. Draco was wealthy and from a dark arts interested family - so was Sirius, but Sirius rejected it, Draco did not. Draco was great at Quidditch, so was Harry, but Draco was not above cheating - Harry didn't seek to cheat. Draco was a good student, so was Hermione; yet Draco continually came up short in comparison.

Thus, we can make all kinds of comparisons, but in the end, Draco was his own person, not directly comparable to anyone in any way, imo - there were always vivid distinctions. His unique character is what made him an outstanding read and a great addition to the series. To indicate that JKR simply re-invented characters to mimic others, devalues the brilliance of each of their individual highlights. Points of similarity exist between all of the characters in the world of magic, they all cast spells or they are squibs - but there the similarity ends.
You make a very good point. :tu: Draco, though he can be compared to many different characters in the books, has his own personality and is different than anyone else. I think he was influenced for bad by his Voldemort-supporting family, and that's how his personality, but it is my opinion that he never really intended he never intended to do anything seriously evil. He did become a Death Eater, but I think it was just the pressure and expectation from his familly that made him do it. I don't think he wanted to kill anybody, and that his mission that was assigned to him LV made him deeply uncomfortable. He would have never willingly wanted to kill Dumbledore, but it was fear for the lives of himself and his family that made him try to carry out his mission. HBP convinced me of that. I think Draco wasn't necessarily good, but he wasn't eaxactly bad, either. He was just in the middle. He was just a struggling teenage boy that was in the wrong crowd and was just being pelted on all sides and didn't know what to do.

Just my humble opinion. :)

Draco was not like any other character in the book - in total. He was a budding death eater like Snape in his youth, but he made better choices in that regard than Snape did. Draco fought with Harry, like James fought with Snape, and Draco attempted dark curses against Harry like Snape did against James during their battles as enemies - but Draco was not universally unpopular as Snape had been; crowds did not cheer when Draco was on the losing end so the situation was different overall. Draco called Hermione a mudblood like Snape called Lily a mudblood, but Draco and Hermione were not friends. Draco was wealthy and from a dark arts interested family - so was Sirius, but Sirius rejected it, Draco did not. Draco was great at Quidditch, so was Harry, but Draco was not above cheating - Harry didn't seek to cheat. Draco was a good student, so was Hermione; yet Draco continually came up short in comparison.

I don't see how what you're saying is different from what anyone else is saying. Of course Draco is unique unto himself, all the characters are. I don't think anyone is trying to say Draco is James 2.0, just that there were obvious parallels between the two being drawn.

Just as there are parallels between Draco and many other characters, as you noted.

My point was that the voice in the map doesn't represent a person's personality overall. James could have been different as an adult than he was when he made the map.

My point was that the words on the map, which, we apparently agree, fairly reflect teen!James, make fun of people for their looks, an activity which I find equivalent to Draco making fun of their poverty. Both are shallow reasons to pick on someone, and both are things beyond the control of the victims, which, further, place the victims at a social disadvantage. To be perfectly clear, I am not comparing adult James to teen Draco. We know very little about adult James, and also the comparison would be a bit unfair to Draco, whom we only know as a teen.

Yes, but there isn't anything that even hints that James purposely tried to hurt Snape at all. So I disagree with you.

If we look at the scene of Draco and Harry in the train, and at Madam Malkin's, the scenes I am suggesting are parallel to James and Snape, Draco is also oblivious enough to think he is making the right moves to win Harry's friendship. A simple expression of the beliefs he has picked up from his parents is enough to alienate Harry.

Actually, Snape and Draco could be compared, too. They both joined the Death Eaters, had an attraction to the Dark Arts and later felt remorse for joining the Death Eaters.

Yes, they could be compared in this way, this is an undoubted similarity of the experiences of these two characters. If you would care to elaborate, it might be interesting, though I am not able to take it further without getting into contrasts rather than comparisons. It does not make James any less similar to Draco ito me, however. :)

Also, Draco's attraction to the Dark Arts is in my opinion in question. Harry thinks he has one, but I was never able to determine on what basis. I saw no independent evidence of it. The class I think we have the most evidence for being his favroite is actually Potions.

We jump to the conclusion that Harry and James are the best match here. But in terms of background and life experience, the things we now know about all four of the characters, in terms of the way they acted in their respective trips on the train, it is Snape who better parallels Harry. Which leaves Draco and James.


But that's just in terms of background. The only things I see James and Draco sharing is that fact they come from rich pureblood families. Yes, James and Draco were jerks, but they were different kinds of jerks. They had different personalities, different friends, different ideals, and much differences.
Someone has to clue me in all this James=Draco delimma.

My point was that the words on the map, which, we apparently agree, fairly reflect teen!James, make fun of people for their looks, an activity which I find equivalent to Draco making fun of their poverty. Both are shallow reasons to pick on someone, and both are things beyond the control of the victims, which, further, place the victims at a social disadvantage. To be perfectly clear, I am not comparing adult James to teen Draco. We know very little about adult James, and also the comparison would be a bit unfair to Draco, whom we only know as a teen.

I understand what you mean now. :)

I agree that using shallow means to pick on someone is wrong. The difference I see, however, is that Draco dislikes someone only because of that whereas James dislikes someone for other reasons but uses shallow insults.

Yes, they could be compared in this way, this is an undoubted similarity of the experiences of these two characters. If you would care to elaborate, it might be interesting, though I am not able to take it further without getting into contrasts rather than comparisons. It does not make James any less similar to Draco ito me, however. :)

Well, I'm not going to elaborate on the similarities between Draco and Snape or Draco and another character, but I think other characters (Draco, Snape, Peter, etc.) hold more similarities than James does to Draco. James and Draco had similar backgrounds, that's a given. I simply don't believe that there is a strong enough connection between the two.

Basically, I don't think a person's family background defines a person as whole. Other factors - morals, for one - are much more important to a character, IMO. James and Draco had completely different morals. James never succumbed to the lure of Voldemort, the Dark Arts and pureblood supremacy whilst Draco did.

Also, Draco's attraction to the Dark Arts is in my opinion in question. Harry thinks he has one, but I was never able to determine on what basis. I saw no independent evidence of it. The class I think we have the most evidence for being his favroite is actually Potions.

I don't think JKR would include that comment in the story for no reason, so I do think Harry was accurate. If Draco didn't like the Dark Arts, then I'd wonder how he mastered two of the Unforgivables - the two curses that are supposed to be advanced.

If Draco didn't like the Dark Arts, then I'd wonder how he mastered two of the Unforgivables - the two curses that are supposed to be advanced.

He mastered the same two that Harry did and we know Harry doesn't like the Dark Arts.

That said, I do think Draco was interested in the Dark Arts.

I don't think JKR would include that comment in the story for no reason, so I do think Harry was accurate. If Draco didn't like the Dark Arts, then I'd wonder how he mastered two of the Unforgivables - the two curses that are supposed to be advanced.

By that reasoning, Harry must have been interested in the Dark Arts himself. His Imperius Curse and Crucio are both powerful.

We know that Draco does not actually like to cast the Cruciatus curse. We also don't know that Draco can do an Imperius. It is possible he took care of Rosmerta himself, but he did have outside help, so it might have been an adult Death Eater.

Other factors - morals, for one - are much more important to a character, IMO. James and Draco had completely different morals. James never succumbed to the lure of Voldemort, the Dark Arts and pureblood supremacy whilst Draco did.

I'm really not sure in what sense you are using the word 'morals' here.

Draco was a Death Eater, but I am not at all convinced it was the 'lure' of Voldemort, Dark Arts, or pureblood supremacy that pulled him in. He joined following the arrest of his father, and I think that was the strongest factor inspiring him to take that step.

By that reasoning, Harry must have been interested in the Dark Arts himself. His Imperius Curse and Crucio are both powerful.

I was just using that to support Harry's idea. That's the only time we actually know of that Draco uses the Dark Arts. I'm aware that Harry used them, but my point wasn't that everyone who uses Dark Arts of some form is infatuated with them. My point was that Draco's use of the spell could be considered evidence that Draco was infatuated with the Dark Arts.

We know that Draco does not actually like to cast the Cruciatus curse.

Draco almost fired the spell at Harry in HBP, but he didn't get to finish saying Crucio because Harry shot Sectumsempra at him.

We also don't know that Draco can do an Imperius.

Actually, we do know that.

Dumbledore closed his eyes again and nodded, as though he was about to fall asleep. ". . . of course . . . Rosmerta. How long has she been under the Imperius Curse?"

"Got there at last, have you?" Malfoy taunted.

My point was that the voice in the map doesn't represent a person's personality overall. James could have been different as an adult than he was when he made the map. Remus certainly was different from the voice in the map.

The voice doesn't but the words and their meaning did, I thought.

I am not denying that. I just seriously doubt that James treated Snape the way he did simply because of his name. Their animosity ran deep, so I doubt James only disliked Snape because of his nickname and physical features.

Yes, it did and the common animosity ground was Lily and Snape's forays into the dark arts. But having said that, James never fought Snape on those grounds; in the two instances we have, its more of making fun of Snape rather than anything else, IMO.

Yes, but there isn't anything that even hints that James purposely tried to hurt Snape at all. So I disagree with you.

Physically, perhaps, psychologically, very deeply I would think.

I am aware of that, but I see them overall as opposites. While they may have had similar paths (but different since James chose the order and Draco chose the Death Eaters), their character was different.

James and Draco are similiar IMO because they come from loving homes, that taught them their values. They did not question those values at all, because they never needed to look at their parents with suspicion. Draco at some point needed to choose another way, but James never did. That was the difference IMO.

Actually, Snape and Draco could be compared, too. They both joined the Death Eaters, had an attraction to the Dark Arts and later felt remorse for joining the Death Eaters.

I would respectfully disagree. Draco did not join the death eaters because he had an attraction to the DA. That was Snape. Draco joined because his father was a member; just like James joined because his father was on the side of the Light and tolerant towards muggles and muggleborns.

I don't see how what you're saying is different from what anyone else is saying. Of course Draco is unique unto himself, all the characters are. I don't think anyone is trying to say Draco is James 2.0, just that there were obvious parallels between the two being drawn. Just as there are parallels between Draco and many other characters, as you noted.

I was just giving my opinion. It appears that we are in agreement, unfortunately that doesn't serve to make either of us brilliant or correct. :lol:

I think another point is that even in the similarities between Draco and other characters, there are distinctions. In a way, Draco was likely the most complex character in the book because at anyone time, it is literally impossible to know what he was thinking and we are not later given explanations in the way we are about other characters. For example, his laughter in the face of Blaise's statement on the train that Slughorn didn't wish to have Death Eaters in his club has been interpreted in so many ways I have lost count. And every interpreter has arrogantly declared they have it right. But anyone could be right, imo, and that is the beauty of the complexity of this character.

Draco is one of the very few characters that we can look back on and ask, 'just whose side was he on anyway?' :lol:

The voice doesn't but the words and their meaning did, I thought.

:huh: I don't understand what you're saying here. Could you explain?

Yes, it did and the common animosity ground was Lily and Snape's forays into the dark arts. But having said that, James never fought Snape on those grounds; in the two instances we have, its more of making fun of Snape rather than anything else, IMO.

I know, but what I was saying is that Jame didn't dislike Snape only because of his features and/or name. James did taunt him, but that doesn't, IMO, mean James only disliked Snape for shallow reasons.

Physically, perhaps, psychologically, very deeply I would think.

In my post I was saying that James didn't intentionally voice his comments about Slytherin just to hurt Snape.

James and Draco are similiar IMO because they come from loving homes, that taught them their values.

That's exactly what I'm arguing against. The similarity in upbringing between Draco and James is a very superficial comparison, IMO. They couldn't help it that their parents were wealthy.

They did not question those values at all, because they never needed to look at their parents with suspicion.

We don't even know where James got his values, so that isn't a strong comparison either.

Draco at some point needed to choose another way, but James never did. That was the difference IMO.

Because James detested the Dark Arts and never was attracted to them in the first place.

I would respectfully disagree. Draco did not join the death eaters because he had an attraction to the DA. That was Snape.

If you trust Harry's judgment, then Draco was infatuated with the Dark Arts. I agree that majority of Draco's reasons for joining was because of his father, but he also seemed excited, according to Bella. So I think he was attracted to it initially, but eventually realized the truth about being a Death Eater.

MA: But that doesn’t have to be true, if [R.A.B.] is writing Voldemort a personal note.

JKR: That doesn't necessarily show that Voldemort killed him, personally, but Sirius himself suspected that Regulus got in a little too deep. Like Draco. He was attracted to it, but the reality of what it meant was way too much to handle.

Draco joined because his father was a member; just like James joined because his father was on the side of the Light and tolerant towards muggles and muggleborns.

As was mentioned earlier, we don't know which side James' father was. And I would disagree anyway with that even if we knew that James' father was on the right side. It would degrade James' choice to fight the Death Eaters/Voldemort, IMO, if he only joined because "his father was on the side of the Light." It's clear that James disliked the Dark Arts and didn't support pureblood supremacy, and that's what I think made him choose to oppose Voldemort.

Let's move away from the discussion of the Marauders and the map and the voices on the map, and all the other off topic stuff. This is about Draco. I am seeing the words James and Snape far too many times here. :lol:

I would respectfully disagree. Draco did not join the death eaters because he had an attraction to the DA. That was Snape. Draco joined because his father was a member; just like James joined because his father was on the side of the Light and tolerant towards muggles and muggleborns.

But that is merely your opinion. There is no canon that tells us why either Draco joined the Death Eaters or why James joined the Order from their own POVs. We can all only guess. Neither Draco nor James had the personalities of a puppet; we don't see deep insecurities and the nature of persons who are followers in these two, imo. I would say that both garnered their own reasons for joining up with their respective groups. Draco did seem to idolize his father, but we don't have evidence that James did. James merely said he wanted to be a Gryffindor like his dad, but that is not a sign of idolization. I too wished to be an electric engineer like my dad at 10, but here I am in law school. Parents are influential, but strong individuals make their own decisions. Draco was more vulnerable than James, imo, so he may have been more influenced, but he had enough backbone to make his own decisions, even in the face of his father - as we saw by his actions in Malfoy Manor.

It would degrade James' choice to fight the Death Eaters/Voldemort, IMO, if he only joined because "his father was on the side of the Light."

It was nonetheless a far easier choice for him to make than it would have been for Draco. Draco would have been turning his back on everything he had been taught, and on all the members of his family to whom he was close.

I also wanted to address the interview remark about Regulus Black, Draco Malfoy, and their attraction to the Death Eaters that you mention:

MA: But that doesn’t have to be true, if [R.A.B.] is writing Voldemort a personal note.

JKR: That doesn't necessarily show that Voldemort killed him, personally, but Sirius himself suspected that Regulus got in a little too deep. Like Draco. He was attracted to it, but the reality of what it meant was way too much to handle.

All this is saying is that Regulus was attracted to being a Death Eater just like Draco was. It does not address what about the Death Eaters attracted these two young men. But in my view, both Regulus and Draco were attracted for the same reasons. They had been raised in Pureblood families by parents who loved them, and whom they in turn loved, and espoused the same views that Voldemort championed. Draco actually followed his father's footsteps, Regulus made himself 'a right little hero' (Sirius's words, OotP) in his parents' eyes by joining. As young men have done throughout history, they chose to fight for the cause they were raised to believe in. It was their misfortune that this cause was the 'wrong' one, and the leader to whom they gave their allegiance was Voldemort, a thoroughly evil psychopath. It is to their credit that when they came to an understanding of this, they rejected Voldemort and their former allegiance, Regulus rather more dramatically than Draco.

It is for this reason that the implication that Draco lacked 'morals' puzzles me. It is precisely when the reality hit him that Voldemort was making him act against his own moral compass that he changed. He had one, one which told him things like murder of helpless people and torture are wrong, it seems to me, and he acted in accordance to its dictates when it mattered most. He just did not think he was doing anything wrong in becoming a Death Eater, because he did not realize those were precisely that things that would be required of him.

I just don't see any evidence either in this quote or in the books, that Draco had any particular, special, or unusual interest in the Dark Arts.

That's exactly what I'm arguing against. The similarity in upbringing between Draco and James is a very superficial comparison, IMO. They couldn't help it that their parents were wealthy.

As was mentioned earlier, we don't know which side James' father was. And I would disagree anyway with that even if we knew that James' father was on the right side. It would degrade James' choice to fight the Death Eaters/Voldemort, IMO, if he only joined because "his father was on the side of the Light." It's clear that James disliked the Dark Arts and didn't support pureblood supremacy, and that's what I think made him choose to oppose Voldemort.

I agree, they could not help it if their parents were wealthy; the point I was trying to make was they were both loved and there was no reason for Draco to look at his father's stand as wrong. That came much later, and he was strong enough to do the right thing IMO.

And I agree with you and wwb; I really don't know which side James's father was or if James idolized his father like Draco so obviously did; but from his comments on the train when James was only 11, about Slytherin, I got the feeling that they may have been against the dark arts. I don't know of course.

Just like Draco tells Harry, when he's just 11, that muggleborns should not be allowed. That was his opinion, because that was his parents' opinions.

Dumbledore - in DH - says the one thing I've been thinking all through the series. They sort too early. Because, as we've learnt, it's not only certain traits of character, like bookishness, or bravery, that determine the Hat's decision - it's the choice of the child itself that finalises it. And eleven year old kids are ruled in their opinion, wishes, etc by the environment they've grown up with so far. As the books illustrate so charmingly - it's usually these years between eleven and eighteen during which a child grows up to become a human being of its own account, with independent opinions, autonomous choices and a set of individual morals (that don't merely mirror the upbringing). And these children usually - if they are from wizarding families - have virtually nothing else but their families to guide them, because they're not even obliged to attend a Primary school, where teachers etc could influence them.

Just like Draco tells Harry, when he's just 11, that muggleborns should not be allowed. That was his opinion, because that was his parents' opinions.

Indeed. Draco had no reason to question his parents, because he was on utterly good terms with them. He idolised his father to a degree that was ridiculous for the reader - why, on a reasonably psychological level, should a boy like he rebel against his upbringing? Where would the motivational factor come in? In a way, Draco's dilemma lies in the fact that his parents did everything right except in the principle department. A happy child needs more time (etc) than an unhappy, to get enough distance to their parents and start questioning each and every of their tenets and finally be an autonomous person.

I'm talking about opinions and decisions here, not about the underlying personality of the respective child. That, of course, is present from an early age on, but the individual temper and disposition are the soil receptive to the upbringing (and opinion of parents and all that). An out-going child will react differently to new influences than a shy, reclusive one, for example. Draco is curious, but not 'open'. He wants to know things - but not because he is genuinely interested in these new things, but to mark down the difference between himself and 'the others'. And that is something he's been taught at home - to be proud of what he is, and look down on others. Eleven-year-old Draco perceives any difference to what he is, has, and is used to, as inevitably inferior.

And that isnt' - yet - a questions of morality. Morality in itself has something to do with free choices, and before a child hasn't reached the terrains of being aware of having such a choice, their acts cannot be judged on the basis of morality. That is one of the reasons why most modern legal systems don't hold children under a certain age responsible for their actions. In these systems, parents are made liable for what their children do - because it is acknowledged that the parents' influence on the child is the predominant factor in whatever it is the child does.

Draco had no reason to question his parents, because he was on utterly good terms with them. He idolised his father to a degree that was ridiculous for the reader - why, on a reasonably psychological level, should a boy like he rebel against his upbringing? Where would the motivational factor come in? In a way, Draco's dilemma lies in the fact that his parents did everything right except in the principle department. A happy child needs more time (etc) than an unhappy, to get enough distance to their parents and start questioning each and every of their tenets and finally be an autonomous person.

A fantastic post! :tu:

Dumbledore - in DH - says the one thing I've been thinking all through the series. They sort too early. Because, as we've learnt, it's not only certain traits of character, like bookishness, or bravery, that determine the Hat's decision - it's the choice of the child itself that finalises it. And eleven year old kids are ruled in their opinion, wishes, etc by the environment they've grown up with so far. As the books illustrate so charmingly - it's usually these years between eleven and eighteen during which a child grows up to become a human being of its own account, with independent opinions, autonomous choices and a set of individual morals (that don't merely mirror the upbringing). And these children usually - if they are from wizarding families - have virtually nothing else but their families to guide them, because they're not even obliged to attend a Primary school, where teachers etc could influence them.

Indeed. Draco had no reason to question his parents, because he was on utterly good terms with them. He idolised his father to a degree that was ridiculous for the reader - why, on a reasonably psychological level, should a boy like he rebel against his upbringing? Where would the motivational factor come in? In a way, Draco's dilemma lies in the fact that his parents did everything right except in the principle department. A happy child needs more time (etc) than an unhappy, to get enough distance to their parents and start questioning each and every of their tenets and finally be an autonomous person.

I'm talking about opinions and decisions here, not about the underlying personality of the respective child. That, of course, is present from an early age on, but the individual temper and disposition are the soil receptive to the upbringing (and opinion of parents and all that). An out-going child will react differently to new influences than a shy, reclusive one, for example. Draco is curious, but not 'open'. He wants to know things - but not because he is genuinely interested in these new things, but to mark down the difference between himself and 'the others'. And that is something he's been taught at home - to be proud of what he is, and look down on others. Eleven-year-old Draco perceives any difference to what he is, has, and is used to, as inevitably inferior.

And that isnt' - yet - a questions of morality. Morality in itself has something to do with free choices, and before a child hasn't reached the terrains of being aware of having such a choice, their acts cannot be judged on the basis of morality. That is one of the reasons why most modern legal systems don't hold children under a certain age responsible for their actions. In these systems, parents are made liable for what their children do - because it is acknowledged that the parents' influence on the child is the predominant factor in whatever it is the child does.

A very introspective post into the idea, as always Fleur. :) I think there is truth in what you have written. However, I don't think it is as simple as that and I believe JKR, in addition to Draco gave us a couple of counterpoints, and because she gave us more than one, I don't believe we were to see them as exceptions : Sirius & Blaise.

What do we see in Blaise, then? The fascination connected to his character always evaded me. As far as I remember we see him in exactly one scene, closer, that is - and in that one scene, we learn that he is a) not associated to Death Eaters and b) a bit of a prat. But that not every Slytherin is a Death Eater - well, we knew that anyway, with or without Blaise, didn't we?

Sirius - I won't go into a closer inspection here, but only so much - eleven-year-old Sirius as we see him on the train, is no happy child in the same sense that Draco is. He's already at odds with his parents to a certain degree - and his development is going to take place in a constant, wilful, systematic demarkation to what his family stands for. He, too, is 'guided' by his family - and if only because he's decided early on to always try and do the exact opposite of what his mother would approve of.

There are two main roads for a child to raise their parents attention. If they can never win anyway, because the parents are neglectful, or over-expectant, or just clinic cases like Mrs Black sometimes appears to be, and the kid's personality isn't of the cowed, timid sort, but rather rebellious and self-confident, there's always the chance to make the parents respond by being 'naughty'. A negative reaction is an acknowledgement, too, after all.

The other route is for kids like Draco. They receive praise, acknowledgement and a positive feedback from their parents (the most important people in their lives at that age) by acting as they are expected to be. I dare say most of us did exactly that at that age. It's fairly normal, and Harry's growing-up achievement finally completed in DH mirrors exactly this -
so far, he trusted Dumbledore's judgement without too many doubts. In DH, he actually does what Dumbledore hoped he'd do - but he doesn't do it because he's told so, because he thinks he's expected to do it, or to gain approval - he does it because he, for himself, realises that he wants to do that. Even though we see much more of Harry than we get of Draco, their developments are parallel to a certain degree here, in my opinion. Indeed, Draco will never become one of the world's great heroes. But his behaviour in the Malfoy Manor chapter does show that he has grown up in that respect as well. It's obvious what Lucius wants - and still Draco doesn't follow daddy's (whom he loves) wishes, but acts as he thinks it's right. That is as well a grown-up (in the psychological meaning of the term) thing to do, and a 'moral choice' (in the sense that there are two options, and Draco consciously chooses one of them).

What do we see in Blaise, then? The fascination connected to his character always evaded me. As far as I remember we see him in exactly one scene, closer, that is - and in that one scene, we learn that he is a) not associated to Death Eaters and b) a bit of a prat. But that not every Slytherin is a Death Eater - well, we knew that anyway, with or without Blaise, didn't we?

Well I think it was important for her to give us an example. It is one thing to say that all children from blood-purist, Slytherin households do not become death eaters and then actually show one. All this shows with respect to what we were speaking of, is that one aspect - immersed in a Slytherin (and even a major Death Eater) belief (blood purism) - plus living and being friends with a budding Death Eater - does not mean that one has to fall in with Death Eaters in the end. Sirius took this further.

Sirius - I won't go into a closer inspection here, but only so much - eleven-year-old Sirius as we see him on the train, is no happy child in the same sense that Draco is. He's already at odds with his parents to a certain degree - and his development is going to take place in a constant, wilful, systematic demarkation to what his family stands for. He, too, is 'guided' by his family - and if only because he's decided early on to always try and do the exact opposite of what his mother would approve of.

But that was your whole point. Sirius had all of the comforts that his brother and Draco did. We don't have any canon to show that Sirius' parents were awful to him and delightful to Regulus arbitrarily. It was the reaction of the kid himself. Draco reacted like Regulus and both were influenced by their parents. Sirius went just the opposite direction in the same available environment. So the distinction is not the environment, but rather the kid himself.

There are two main roads for a child to raise their parents attention. If they can never win anyway, because the parents are neglectful, or over-expectant, or just clinic cases like Mrs Black sometimes appears to be, and the kid's personality isn't of the cowed, timid sort, but rather rebellious and self-confident, there's always the chance to make the parents respond by being 'naughty'. A negative reaction is an acknowledgement, too, after all.

But Mrs. Black would be a clinic case to both Sirius and Regulus - yet they came out differently. So again, I think it is the kid. In Draco's case, I believe it was his chracter and personality that caused him to react to his parents in the way he did. Unlike Sirius, he sought the admiration of his parents. Sirius did not. While I agree that some kids simply like to rebel, Sirius had influences in his life that he obviously listened to (his uncle and his aunt) and he disagreed with the things his parents were saying. Draco may not have had those influences, maybe Narcissa kept them away from him or maybe Draco simply did not agree with them. In any case, Draco did not sway any more than Regulus did.

The other route is for kids like Draco. They receive praise, acknowledgement and a positive feedback from their parents (the most important people in their lives at that age) by acting as they are expected to be.

But I think this presupposes that Draco recieved the praise he desired, but kids like Sirius could not receive that praise even if they tried to get it. I don't think that was the case. Sirius didn't seem to want it. Draco did. Draco got it. But both knew how to get it.

Draco will never become one of the world's great heroes. But his behaviour in the Malfoy Manor chapter does show that he has grown up in that respect as well. It's obvious what Lucius wants - and still Draco doesn't follow daddy's (whom he loves) wishes, but acts as he thinks it's right. That is as well a grown-up (in the psychological meaning of the term) thing to do, and a 'moral choice' (in the sense that there are two options, and Draco consciously chooses one of them).

I totally agree with you here. :tu:

I would respectfully disagree. Draco did not join the death eaters because he had an attraction to the DA. That was Snape. Draco joined because his father was a member; just like James joined because his father was on the side of the Light and tolerant towards muggles and muggleborns.

I agree with you. :agree: Draco didn't necessarily like the Dark Art or want to become a Death Eater. As I stated in my first post, he was pressured by his family, and after all of their expectation, he just couldn't dissapoint them. He joined the Death Eaters solely because of his family.

It was nonetheless a far easier choice for him to make than it would have been for Draco. Draco would have been turning his back on everything he had been taught, and on all the members of his family to whom he was close.

Yes, it definitely would have been. But James still made the choice nonetheless. Draco could have defied his parents and turned to the path of the Light like other characters, but he didn't. Both James and Draco made the conscious choice when they decided which side to be on. James - regardless of which side his parents were on - still had the choice and in the end he made the right one. Draco didn't at first, but he chose the right path eventually.

I just don't see any evidence either in this quote or in the books, that Draco had any particular, special, or unusual interest in the Dark Arts.

I do agree with the rest of your post on the similarities between Draco and Regulus (which, as I said multiple times, has more significant similarities than James and Draco do), but I thought it was clear why Draco chose to join Voldemort. Draco's family was in danger, that was a major reason. There was also the excitement he had for being a Death Eater (as Bellatrix said in HBP). I do believe his attraction to the Dark Arts is part of that reason as well because Harry said so and nothing clearly contradicts that. I respect your views, but I doubt any author would put an insight into a person's character or attractions for no reason. If we feel differently, then we're going to have to agree to disagree.

I agree, they could not help it if their parents were wealthy; the point I was trying to make was they were both loved and there was no reason for Draco to look at his father's stand as wrong. That came much later, and he was strong enough to do the right thing IMO.

I agree with that assessment for Draco. It's quite natural for him to assume that his parents are right, but most children/adolescents usually wake up to the reality of their parents, and Draco took a longer time to accept that.

And I agree with you and wwb; I really don't know which side James's father was or if James idolized his father like Draco so obviously did; but from his comments on the train when James was only 11, about Slytherin, I got the feeling that they may have been against the dark arts. I don't know of course.

A person could want to be in the same house without actually hero-worshipping that person. James wanted to be in Gryffindor like his father but he never clearly makes any remarks like Draco does about his father. ("My father . . .")

Just like Draco tells Harry, when he's just 11, that muggleborns should not be allowed. That was his opinion, because that was his parents' opinions.

I agree about Draco, but there still isn't anything that indicates James followed his parents views acutely. It's likely that he did, but there isn't enough information. The Potter family wasn't known for their place on pureblood supremacy as the Weasleys and Blacks did. The Blacks didn't find any problem with the marriage between Charlus and Dorea. Maybe Mr. and Mrs. Potter did support Muggle rights, but the Potters weren't well-known for it, I assume.

posted by beatifically
I agree with that assessment for Draco. It's quite natural for him to assume that his parents are right, but most children/adolescents usually wake up to the reality of their parents, and Draco took a longer time to accept that.

I would respectfully disagree. We see so many people in RL who are unable to come to terms with prejudices that everyone agrees is wrong or perhaps insulting to others. Like the mudblood comments Draco was very casual in using in the books, we see so much discrimination on colour, religion, caste and so many things in RL which people sometimes hold on to, until they die. They don't seem to understand even after they stand on their own feet that having such one sided opinions are wrong. They feel justified and even proud sometimes of having such opinions IMO.

Draco had only good things to go by with respect to his parents; he had no reason to think wrongly of their values. It was not until he was put in a situation where he must act like his father, or else lose everything, he opened his eyes and realized what exactly the side he had been so proud until then of being a part of, was all about.

He had to choose then, and IMO he chose right.

A person could want to be in the same house without actually hero-worshipping that person. James wanted to be in Gryffindor like his father but he never clearly makes any remarks like Draco does about his father. ("My father . . .")

I agree. But at 11, I think, what James would say would be what his parents taught him, else he would be like Sirius, rebellious and wanting to do exactly opposite of what his parents expected from him. We don't see that from James and so I thought he was mirroring his parents opinions. But I don't have any canon and I may be wrong on that. :)

I would respectfully disagree. We see so many people in RL who are unable to come to terms with prejudices that everyone agrees is wrong or perhaps insulting to others. Like the mudblood comments Draco was very casual in using in the books, we see so much discrimination on colour, religion, caste and so many things in RL which people sometimes hold on to, until they die. They don't seem to understand even after they stand on their own feet that having such one sided opinions are wrong. They feel justified and even proud sometimes of having such opinions IMO.

And there are also people that understand that their parents are human and make mistakes. I was speaking generally about people, and I know there are people that hold onto specific beliefs until the day he or she dies. There are others, however, that are shaken once he or she understands the flawed nature of his or her parents. Some may even go so far that they would outright defy their parents ideas. That's all I was trying to say. :)

Draco had only good things to go by with respect to his parents; he had no reason to think wrongly of their values. It was not until he was put in a situation where he must act like his father, or else lose everything, he opened his eyes and realized what exactly the side he had been so proud until then of being a part of, was all about.

That's what I was trying to say. Draco held onto the beliefs of his parents and, when he understood the reality of being a Death Eater, he realized that his father's side and the side he was on was not the right side to be on at all.

I agree. But at 11, I think, what James would say would be what his parents taught him, else he would be like Sirius, rebellious and wanting to do exactly opposite of what his parents expected from him. We don't see that from James and so I thought he was mirroring his parents opinions. But I don't have any canon and I may be wrong on that. :)

We do know that James had a rebellious streak (not so much as Sirius, but it was there), so it's possible that James refused to accept his parents ideas. I do lean towards the idea that James' parents were on the right side, but there isn't enough canon to speculate that.

Draco had only good things to go by with respect to his parents; he had no reason to think wrongly of their values. It was not until he was put in a situation where he must act like his father, or else lose everything, he opened his eyes and realized what exactly the side he had been so proud until then of being a part of, was all about.



I think that's a really good summary of Draco.:agree: He certainly had a loving relationship with both parents, and although I didn't think of it before I think it's a really good point that Fleur du mal made earlier about Draco having no real reason to rebel against his parents because he idolised them so much. Particularly his father.

This begins to break down from the end of OOTP, and personally I think that idolization is gone by the beginning of DH. There's one moment I noticed in "The Dark Lord Ascending", when Voldemort is teasing them about Tonks:

The hilarity mounted; Draco Malfoy looked in terror at his father, who was staring down into his own lap, then caught his mother's eye. She shook her head almost imperceptibly, then resumed her own deadpan stare at the opposite wall.

IMO, while he loved his mother, Draco had always taken his guidance from Lucius. It's always "my father says", and he rarely mentions Narcissa. He seems to look up to Lucius far more, so I think that Lucius neglecting to give him guidance (probably the first time that's happened, knowing how determined Lucius is to mould his son the way he wants him to be) might be when the god-like image Draco has of his father in the early books is completely gone. Personally, I feel that little snippet is a turning-point for Draco, although obviously his changing views of Lucius have been coming on for a while before that.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

I think so, yes. From the very beginning, he was always one to talk the talk and act in a very horrible way towards people who he thought were lower than him. I think JKR had always intended him to grow to be a Death Eater.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

I think at the beginning, he really did believe that he was doing things of his own free will. But as the pressure on him built up, I think he began to realise that actually he didn't want to behave like this. I think this came into effect in HBP, when he realises that being a Death Eater isn't all it's cracked up to be. I think there is definitely a huge element of fear from Voldemort to Draco, and also a fear that his family will suffer if he fails.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.

Perhaps. Not just to make friends, but to gain respect from others. If people knew that he was involved with Voldemort or that Lucius was his father, then they would know not to mess with him. Dropping these hints about people he knows can get him higher in the hierachy of friends and make him more powerful within his age group at Hogwarts.

I think that's a really good summary of Draco.:agree: He certainly had a loving relationship with both parents, and although I didn't think of it before I think it's a really good point that Fleur du mal made earlier about Draco having no real reason to rebel against his parents because he idolised them so much. Particularly his father.

This begins to break down from the end of OOTP, and personally I think that idolization is gone by the beginning of DH. There's one moment I noticed in "The Dark Lord Ascending", when Voldemort is teasing them about Tonks:



IMO, while he loved his mother, Draco had always taken his guidance from Lucius. It's always "my father says", and he rarely mentions Narcissa. He seems to look up to Lucius far more, so I think that Lucius neglecting to give him guidance (probably the first time that's happened, knowing how determined Lucius is to mould his son the way he wants him to be) might be when the god-like image Draco has of his father in the early books is completely gone. Personally, I feel that little snippet is a turning-point for Draco, although obviously his changing views of Lucius have been coming on for a while before that.


That is interesting and I agree. Also, Lucius himself seemed to be changing and perhaps Draco sensed that as well, even if he didn't really understand it. What I think was clear to Draco was that every member of his family was most concerned with the other members over everything else. Narcissa defied Voldemort for Draco; Lucius put up with Voldemort for Draco and Draco was ready to kill Dumbledore for his parents. At the end of the battle, they sat huddled together, looking like they perhaps should not have been there - but in reality, the three had all that was important to them: one another. It is brilliant to be so closely connected as a family, although they did take it to selfish extremes at times.

Draco was unique character-wise really and I think that is what made him great. He went from puesdo evil to dark and seemed to remain dark - which is kind of cool. I do believe that he would raise his child to be haughty and proud - and of course with a grand emphasis on family loyalty, but despite Draco's other characteristics, he also showed compassion for others outside of his family and I think that he'd pass that on too. That could make a difference for his offspring.

Draco was unique character-wise really and I think that is what made him great. He went from puesdo evil to dark and seemed to remain dark - which is kind of cool. I do believe that he would raise his child to be haughty and proud - and of course with a grand emphasis on family loyalty, but despite Draco's other characteristics, he also showed compassion for others outside of his family and I think that he'd pass that on too. That could make a difference for his offspring.

I totally agree with this. :tu:

Some people I know were disappointed with Draco's character arc in DH -- these people tend to be rather disappointed with DH in general -- but I think that Rowling's characterisation of Draco (and his parents) is a lot more subtle and clever than many seem to give her credit for. :)

( I was a little annoyed about the receding hairline in the Epilogue though. :p
What, only pseudo-evil Slytherins get a receding hairline in middle age? What about the righteous Gryffindors in their thirties? Doesn't Ron have a paunch? Isn't Harry going a bit grey? :lol: )

I don't think Draco would ever lose the Malfoy sense of pride. I think he will always be a bit of a git. ;) But I do think he might have come to question (even if only to himself) the validity of the pure-blood agenda. Certainly he came to reject the violence involved in furthering the pure-blood cause.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.

Perhaps. Not just to make friends, but to gain respect from others. If people knew that he was involved with Voldemort or that Lucius was his father, then they would know not to mess with him. Dropping these hints about people he knows can get him higher in the hierachy of friends and make him more powerful within his age group at Hogwarts.

What I found interesting about this line of thought is the Draco/Slug Club drama. Draco actually thought that hedeserved to be in this group. Almost everyone else thought of it as a farce but to Draco it must have seemed like his whole life was falling apart when Slughorn barely even spoke to him. Draco was a de facto DE at this point but he was getting none of the rewards that his father enjoyed. No one respected him. Not even "slovenly" Slughorn. In effect Draco was doing the dirty work but reaping none of the benefits....

On an aside I think this reflects well of Slughorn. He may be a debutante and a coward but he knew right from wrong....

Originally posted by Pearl_Took
Some people I know were disappointed with Draco's character arc in DH -- these people tend to be rather disappointed with DH in general -- but I think that Rowling's characterisation of Draco (and his parents) is a lot more subtle and clever than many seem to give her credit for.


At first I was dissapointed with Draco in DH. I was hoping for him to do something definitive to switch sides. As I've reread DH though, I've decided that I actually like him better as he is. I found it really interesting that in the scene in Malfoy Manor where he was asked to identify Harry, Ron, and Hermione he wouldn't confirm their identitys. This might be written off in Harrys' case because of his swollen face, but Draco certenly recognised Ron and Hermione, and all he would say is that it "might be" them. This perfectly shows Draco's inner conflict between his fear of Voldemort, loyalty to his familly, and his concience. Another one of these moments was in the RoR, when he didn't want Crabbe and Goyle to kill the trio. Of course, he may have just wanted to hand them over to Voldemort, but I like to think that he didn't want them dead, and that he hung back because he didn't want to fight, not to capture anyone. Of course, he never was brave, but I wonder what sort of person he would have been in better circumstances.

Of course, he never was brave, but I wonder what sort of person he would have been in better circumstances.

I would call his decision to try and carry the unconscious Gregory Goyle out of the Fiendfyre-engulfed Room of Requirement brave, myself.

I would call his decision to try and carry the unconscious Gregory Goyle out of the Fiendfyre-engulfed Room of Requirement brave, myself.

I agree :tu:

I totally agree with this. :tu:

Some people I know were disappointed with Draco's character arc in DH -- these people tend to be rather disappointed with DH in general -- but I think that Rowling's characterisation of Draco (and his parents) is a lot more subtle and clever than many seem to give her credit for. :)

( I was a little annoyed about the receding hairline in the Epilogue though. :p
What, only pseudo-evil Slytherins get a receding hairline in middle age? What about the righteous Gryffindors in their thirties? Doesn't Ron have a paunch? Isn't Harry going a bit grey? :lol: )

Yeah, JKR knows where to hit a guy where it hurts. :lol:. But I figured since he is a wizard, he could have charmed his hair so that it didn't appear to recede. But perhaps Draco didn't care, he was proud of who he was, like my dad, who thinks his receding hairline is cool. :shrug: I am hoping to take after the dudes on my mum's side of the family, hairs remaining in place...

I don't think Draco would ever lose the Malfoy sense of pride. I think he will always be a bit of a git. ;) But I do think he might have come to question (even if only to himself) the validity of the pure-blood agenda. Certainly he came to reject the violence involved in furthering the pure-blood cause.

Yes I think he did. However, he may still believe that purebloods are of a higher status socially, but I don't think he hates others, just pities them a bit.

Originally Posted by zgirnius
I would call his decision to try and carry the unconscious Gregory Goyle out of the Fiendfyre-engulfed Room of Requirement brave, myself.

I agree. I'd forgotten about that.


Originally Posted by Pearl_Took
I don't think Draco would ever lose the Malfoy sense of pride. I think he will always be a bit of a git. But I do think he might have come to question (even if only to himself) the validity of the pure-blood agenda. Certainly he came to reject the violence involved in furthering the pure-blood cause.

I agree with this too. I think that he has some lingering prejeduce against muggleborns, but that his time as a DE made him realize that it was wrong.

Another thing I found interesting was Draco's changed relationship with Crabbe and Goyle at the end of DH. I wonder if he stayed friends with Goyle after the battle, escpecially considering that they hadn't been getting along well.

Another thing I found interesting was Draco's changed relationship with Crabbe and Goyle at the end of DH. I wonder if he stayed friends with Goyle after the battle, escpecially considering that they hadn't been getting along well.

I would think he would remain friends with him (if Goyle lived after the final battle and didn't go to Azkaban). Draco truly did seem to like his friends well enough, even though he knew they were not as intelligent as he was. He had used them, but that doesn't mean he only saw them as pawns - he was distraught when Crabbe died.

Draco wanted his family safe and I think that he saw by the end that Voldemort had to die for that to be the case. I truly believe he began to feel that Harry was the only one who would be able to do it. Or let's say, had the best chance of doing it. But obviously it didn't mean that he ever liked Harry - just that he threw his dice in Harry's corner at the end (careful to watch his back and that of his parents). But apart from that, he was not willing to allow his friends to die - even if they were engaged in evil and against Harry. I think underneath his greatest desires (family safe - Voldy dead) was another desire to keep everybody he felt the slightest attachment to safe as well.

I don't think that Pansy is his wife.

No, Pansy isn't his wife. Astoria Greengrass is, according to JK Rowling's website.

I am still bemused by the Elder Wand Chapter in which Draco is pleading with a death eater, trying to convince the guy that he is on the same side. What was Draco doing that made the guy think he wasn't? And then Harry stuns his opponent and Draco turns and beams at him - only to be punched in the mouth by Ron (from under the cloak - cowardly behavior!) and says "And that's the second time we've saved your life tonight, you two-faced "non-family friendly term!"

I didn't get that at all. What was Ron thinking? Obviously Draco was doing something anti-Voldemort if the death eater was planning to do him damage. Draco's best ploy was to pretend to be on the best side - he never pretended to be a hero. He also told Crabbe and Goyle not to curse Harry in the ROR. Even if he was being two-faced, Ron shouldn't have punched him because with one of his faces he was helping Ron out, both in the ROR and back at Malfoy Manor. I don't really understand what Ron was thinking and it made me wish Draco would have jumped up and punched him back.

I don't really understand what Ron was thinking and it made me wish Draco would have jumped up and punched him back.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Wicked ... that was a brilliant post. :tu:

Ron wasn't thinking. :rolleyes:

I don't really understand what Ron was thinking and it made me wish Draco would have jumped up and punched him back.

Not practical with an invisible opponent. :lol:

That's a good point, about there having to be a reason the Death Eater was a danger to Draco.

think Draco in DH is a very frightened young man. He is clearly terrified of Voldemort, which is probably why Voldemort gets him to Crucio his victims - to make sure he stays that way. He knows the enormous power Voldemort has over him and his family. It's the bully getting bullied - he can't take it. Definitely. Draco learns in HBP he can’t kill Dumbledore and Snape had to do it for him. Now, he’s had real contact with Voldemort with the Dark Lord living in his house. He’s seeing what it takes to be a Death Eater and I think Draco realizes he doesn’t have it.
However unpopular this opinion may be, I believe that Draco truly is making his choices of his own volition, though I believe it is safe to say that both fear and bravado play both a part in his decisions. I agree he does make his own decisions, but I think deep down he does blame them on his parents. That doesn’t mean his choices are his parents’ faults, it’s just that’s what he sees.

I believe Draco is a coward. He’s a coward who wants to follow his parents and what they believe. It’s what he believes, yes, and I make no excuses for Draco. I just think he’s a coward who’s trying to mask it by pretending to be brave in HBP. He’s really afraid of not doing Voldemort’s task and I think at the same time he’s afraid of doing it.
I agree with you. Draco didn't necessarily like the Dark Art or want to become a Death Eater. As I stated in my first post, he was pressured by his family, and after all of their expectation, he just couldn't dissapoint them. He joined the Death Eaters solely because of his family. I don’t agree. Draco shows too much like for the Dark Arts and all that it is for me to necessarily think that he is in it just to please his family or because he’s pressured by his family.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?


Misunderstood. Only because from the way he was brought up. He feels that he has something to prove because of his father being a Death Eater and all. He has some good in him, helping Harry and all. He may not be the nicest person in the world, but he isn't evil.

I don’t agree. Draco shows too much like for the Dark Arts and all that it is for me to necessarily think that he is in it just to please his family or because he’s pressured by his family.

I think that this was how it all began, when Draco was talking the talk, especially at the beginning of HBP. I think even when he was finding pressure from his family and Voldemort that he would enjoy some of the Dark Arts. However, I think by the time he had got into Voldemort's circle, by about DH, that he began to see the even darker side of what the Dark Arts can do to a person and what you turn into by using the Dark Arts. I don't think that when he had to walk the walk that he liked it as much as he thought he would. :)

I don’t agree. Draco shows too much like for the Dark Arts and all that it is for me to necessarily think that he is in it just to please his family or because he’s pressured by his family.

I am sorry, could you remind me where in the books you saw Draco showing like for the Dark Arts? He mostly seems not to like them, in the scenes I can remember - when Voldemort forces him to torture people with Crucio, for example. Or when he does not gleefully take his opportunity to try out a killing curse on a helpless victim at the end fo HBP.

But mostly, I do not recall them coming up much.

I think that this was how it all began, when Draco was talking the talk, especially at the beginning of HBP.

Draco does not talk about the Dark Arts at all at the start of HBP. He make shimself sound important to his friends nit by bragging of his mastery of Dark Magic, or demonstrating same, but by claiming he is somehow serving Voldemort.

But mostly, I do not recall them coming up much.


I forget the scene, (COS maybe?) where upon he is seen by Harry in Borgin and Burkes and asking Lucius to buy him things. We know that Borgin and Burkes isn't very reputable and full of dark arts items and inded he buys the Hand of Glory there. Then there is the fact that he Imperio'd Madam Rosemerta. Just because he is't seen using the two worst of the Unforgivables does not mean that he wasn't into the Dark Arts.

Draco has a definate mean streak in him (as most true cowards do). As evidenced by how he purposely broke Harry's nose.

Draco lacked the guts to do the worst of the worst but he took pleasure and admiration in those who did.

I didn't get that at all. What was Ron thinking? Obviously Draco was doing something anti-Voldemort if the death eater was planning to do him damage. Draco's best ploy was to pretend to be on the best side - he never pretended to be a hero. He also told Crabbe and Goyle not to curse Harry in the ROR. Even if he was being two-faced, Ron shouldn't have punched him because with one of his faces he was helping Ron out, both in the ROR and back at Malfoy Manor. I don't really understand what Ron was thinking and it made me wish Draco would have jumped up and punched him back.

Ron was probably wondering why they could save Draco twice and yet, just a few moments before, all he could do was stand by and watch as his brother died in battle.

That's my guess, anyway.

Ron was probably wondering why they could say Draco twice and yet, just a few moments before, all he could do was stand by and watch as his brother died in battle.

That's my guess, anyway.

That's a long my thinking to. I would be surprised if even adult Ron is still a bit bitter that such a great man (Fred) was killed but men like Draco survived.

I forget the scene, (COS maybe?) where upon he is seen by Harry in Borgin and Burkes and asking Lucius to buy him things. We know that Borgin and Burkes isn't very reputable and full of dark arts items and inded he buys the Hand of Glory there. Then there is the fact that he Imperio'd Madam Rosemerta. Just because he is't seen using the two worst of the Unforgivables does not mean that he wasn't into the Dark Arts.

Draco has a definate mean streak in him (as most true cowards do). As evidenced by how he purposely broke Harry's nose.

Draco lacked the guts to do the worst of the worst but he took pleasure and admiration in those who did.

Well I don't think Draco had anything against the dark arts - that is, he'd use them if they came in handy. But he wasn't single-mindly focused upon them like some of the Death Eaters were. His bragging in HBP was mostly about serving Voldemort. He could be mean and bullying - but really I only recalling him being that way with the trio - and it wasn't like the trio wasn't mean and bullying right back. He broke Harry's nose, but Hermione hammered him in the nose too unless I am mistaken.

Draco started out admiring those who did the worst, but by the end, he was pretty much helping Harry out when it didn't interfere with protecting himself and his family. He was not a great or heroic dude, but he wasn't a total loser either.

Well I don't think Draco had anything against the dark arts - that is, he'd use them if they came in handy. But he wasn't single-mindly focused upon them like some of the Death Eaters were. His bragging in HBP was mostly about serving Voldemort. He could be mean and bullying - but really I only recalling him being that way with the trio - and it wasn't like the trio wasn't mean and bullying right back. He broke Harry's nose, but Hermione hammered him in the nose too unless I am mistaken.

Draco started out admiring those who did the worst, but by the end, he was pretty much helping Harry out when it didn't interfere with protecting himself and his family. He was not a great or heroic dude, but he wasn't a total loser either.

:rotfl:

Total agreement, wick!

I think one should be slightly more careful when casting the vote on the behaviour of a child/teen. Yes, Draco definitely enjoyed giving others a hard time, as he does with Neville in PS. But can we please remember our own school time here for a moment? There are THOUSANDS, why, MILLIONS of kids like that out there, perfectly all right kids (at the bottom of their heart) who'll grow out of their bullying ways before long. I wouldn't condemn someone because they were a pain in the back when they were fifteen.

And yes, Draco admires the Dark Arts. A branch of magic that he's heard being commended at home, something that Dumbledore has banished from the school (prohibitions always make things even more interesting), stuff that makes other people blanch and shrink away. Again, I find that too ordinary a teenboy's behaviour to base some kind of final verdict on it.

He acts terribly cavalier with the life of others during HBP, there's no question about that. It's awful, of course! But Draco is no longer acting out of his own volition there; he's joined the Death Eaters and wants to (no, must!) redeem his father; he even has to realise that his parents will be made suffer if he doesn't satisfy Voldemort's demands. I think that is a very significant distinction - Draco doesn't do these things because HE had decided one morning that bringing poisoned jewellery and drink into circulation was a fabulous idea to ridden the world of 'the unworthy'.

Compare him to young Tom Riddle, and you see the great difference. When they're very young still, there's a certain similarity. What we hear of Tom's trip to the sea side with the other kids, and what we hear from Neville about Draco in the Forbidden Forest - THAT isn't so different. But after this, their ways part. Draco, on his own, never does more than that, a bit of verbal teasing, some cruel joke and thuggish prank, until he meets the grown-up Riddle and short-sightedly, joins up to emulate his father. But all we get to see of him during HBP after the return to school doesn't strike me as voluntary acts of 'evil', but as a boy acting with growing desperation, trying to take care of the people he cares for.

As for him breaking Harry's nose - oh well. Personally, I loved the scene, and felt like applauding (does anyone know Makani's picture (http://acciobrain.ligermagic.com/silly.php)? See: *post HBP, i finally gave draco some respect*). Mind you, broken bones aren't what they are in the real world, for wizards. He breaks Harry's nose and spreads the Invisibility Cloak over him, after Harry intruded on his privacy. Which doesn't deem me like much of a difference to what Harry et al are doing with him each year on their Hogwarts Express ride home. They're getting even.

Gee, reading that scene - after witnessing the events of the 'Draco's Detour' chapter, and the events of 'Spinner's End' - I was positively impressed by Draco's reserve. There he is, all set on the road to evul - and all he does when he finally has Harry Potter on his mercy, is that?

And yes, Draco admires the Dark Arts. A branch of magic that he's heard being commended at home, something that Dumbledore has banished from the school (prohibitions always make things even more interesting), stuff that makes other people blanch and shrink away. Again, I find that too ordinary a teenboy's behaviour to base some kind of final verdict on it.

I agree; but until 6th year when he became desperate, he didn't resort to many dark curses did he? The only one I recall was whipping out the dragon during the duel - after Snape suggested it to him. :lol:. Apart from that, he was doing the same hexes and spells as the trio back at them, wasn't he?

He acts terribly cavalier with the life of others during HBP, there's no question about that. It's awful, of course! But Draco is no longer acting out of his own volition there; he's joined the Death Eaters and wants to (no, must!) redeem his father; he even has to realise that his parents will be made suffer if he doesn't satisfy Voldemort's demands. I think that is a very significant distinction - Draco doesn't do these things because HE had decided one morning that bringing poisoned jewellery and drink into circulation was a fabulous idea to ridden the world of 'the unworthy'.

Right - the thing is, he could have gone to Dumbledore for help. But one has to keep in mind that in doing so, he would be signing his mum and dad's death warrants and he simply didn't want to take the chance. He did try to come up with a couple of nefarious ideas, but fortunately for him, he wasn't all that great at planning. But I think that JKR was sending out a real message the day that Harry found Draco in the bathroom crying. He obviously was not into what he was doing there.

As for him breaking Harry's nose - oh well. Personally, I loved the scene, and felt like applauding (does anyone know Makani's picture (http://acciobrain.ligermagic.com/silly.php)? See: *post HBP, i finally gave draco some respect*). Mind you, broken bones aren't what they are in the real world, for wizards. He breaks Harry's nose and spreads the Invisibility Cloak over him, after Harry intruded on his privacy. Which doesn't deem me like much of a difference to what Harry et al are doing with him each year on their Hogwarts Express ride home. They're getting even.

Gee, reading that scene - after witnessing the events of the 'Draco's Detour' chapter, and the events of 'Spinner's End' - I was positively impressed by Draco's reserve. There he is, all set on the road to evul - and all he does when he finally has Harry Potter on his mercy, is that?

Yes, his behavior was horrible there, I mean, he did crush Harry's nose with his foot. A bit overboard, but Harry did pay him back with the sectumsempra, a spell he had no business using because he didn't know what it did. What if it had caused instant death? So I don't think either of these enemies came off looking too good in 6th year.

I agree; but until 6th year when he became desperate, he didn't resort to many dark curses did he? The only one I recall was whipping out the dragon during the duel - after Snape suggested it to him. :lol:. Apart from that, he was doing the same hexes and spells as the trio back at them, wasn't he?


Yep, as far as I recall, the snake spell was the only 'extraordinary' spell he ever used before Aunty Bella started training him up. I don't think the Snake Charm was considered a Dark spell though, for those were banned from Hogwarts and he would have got into trouble for using Dark Magic in front of some hundred eye witnesses. That aside, Draco appears to have been using the same sort of school yard curses like everyone else, like the Leglock curse he performs on Neville in PS. That's the only spell I remember him using until HBP anyway. Draco always seemed more for verbal sparring, and if it came to an actual confrontation, Crabbe and Goyle would step in front of him and not use magic either, but flex their muscles.

That is what I recalled too. Draco seemed very happy to allow his muscle men friends to enact disaster upon his enemies, rather than engage them himself. However, I do recall him actually doing so on a few occassions - or at least preparing to. He seemed to waiver between bravery and cowardice at times, but then again, most people do.

That is what I recalled too. Draco seemed very happy to allow his muscle men friends to enact disaster upon his enemies, rather than engage them himself. However, I do recall him actually doing so on a few occassions - or at least preparing to. He seemed to waiver between bravery and cowardice at times, but then again, most people do.

I don't think I would call either wanting to punch someone 'bravery', nor refraining from doing so 'cowardice', but other than that I agree :lol:

I don't think I would call either wanting to punch someone 'bravery', nor refraining from doing so 'cowardice', but other than that I agree :lol:

Well I meant in general, not the punching or not punching :lol:. It was sometimes hard to know exactly what was going through Draco's mind at times, but other times it seemed a lot clearer. In the end I pretty much figured out where he was coming from, but not entirely. I am not sure he figured himself out entirely at that point. It looks like he got himself together and made a happy little world for himself and his family when he got older though, so all is well that ends well.

Well I meant in general, not the punching or not punching :lol:. It was sometimes hard to know exactly what was going through Draco's mind at times, but other times it seemed a lot clearer. In the end I pretty much figured out where he was coming from, but not entirely. I am not sure he figured himself out entirely at that point. It looks like he got himself together and made a happy little world for himself and his family when he got older though, so all is well that ends well. Well, I think he had good reason for being confused. I mean nothing in his life seems straight forward.
His parents clearly love him, yet they let him get entangled with Voldemort.
What he's taught about non-purebloods is constantly challenged.
He has some respect for Dumbledore and knows he would help him, but his family is always putting him down.
The teacher he respects above any has confusing allegiances.
Over and over he picks the wrong side and sees how it fails. Over and over he sees how he's misjudged people.
I'd be confused to!

I agree, it would be very confusing once your personal views and the views you were brought up with began conflicting. In the end he just went with protecting his family and himself in the best way he knew how. He was a bright kid, he figured out that Voldemort was not going to be the man to follow and the whole Death Eater regime was not the right way to go. He also saw that protecting his family meant assisting the good cause when possible (without endangering himself or his loved ones) - even if it had to be done on the sly - and he figured that out before his dad did.