Draco Malfoy: Character Analysis

I felt that Draco had to fight the odds; he had to undo all that he had learnt and make the right choices; while James, Kingsley, Ron, Hermione did not have that stress of unlearning everything they had learnt from their parents; and that too in such horrible circumstances. That was what I meant. :)

For Draco it was virtually shattering everyone of his beliefs, goals and ideals to choose between what was right and what was easy IMO, between his parents and what was right. That was a horrible place for him to be in IMO.

Draco was an interesting character and I enjoyed reading about him. I do feel though that he placed himself and his family first; even in Malfoy Manor when he was also helping the trio, I felt it was because he felt it was the best way of going about keeping his family safe.

I believe the Draco and his family were rather self-centered in that regard, but I wouldn't knock them for placing their family above all else. That factor did at least cause Narcissa and Draco to assist Harry and it caused Lucius to pretty much stop assisting Voldemort in an effort to secure his family's safety.

So while I would agree that Draco's struggle from the end of HBP and throughout DH had admirable qualities and did allow for self improvement, I would not conclude that made him a better person than anyone else (your premise from the other thread) because everyone faced their own private struggles, no matter what side they were on. (i.e., Sirius never had to struggle with his good/evil views, but he had many consequences of Azkaban to struggle with; worry over Harry and self-generated guilt; Remus didn't struggle with good/evil, but his werewolf status caused him tumultuous problems and even found him specifically hunted by the DEs in DH, like Harry. Harry too didn't struggle with good/evil, but we saw the many struggles he actually did have. :))

I agree with you that the Malfoys put their family first which is no bad thing - Bella didn't think that way. From HBP Draco is doing what he does to save his parents from Voldemort and that's what he continues to do in Malfoy Manor. However, the character development in Draco that I see in DH is that he shows loyalty to some people outside his family - Goyle for one, who had just told Draco that he wasn't taking orders from him any more, and Harry when he refused to identify him.

That last interests me very much. Why did Draco do that? Was it to keep Voldemort away from the house? His father was keen to serve Harry Potter up to LV on a platter but Draco didn't want to be part of it. Or did he have feelings of guilt for the way he'd treated Harry in the past? Had he come to see Harry as a worthwhile person? Had he come over to the good side? If family loyalty was his main characteristic, then this act goes against it - he avoids the chance of putting the Malfoys back in Voldemort's good books.

I agree with you that the Malfoys put their family first which is no bad thing - Bella didn't think that way. From HBP Draco is doing what he does to save his parents from Voldemort and that's what he continues to do in Malfoy Manor. However, the character development in Draco that I see in DH is that he shows loyalty to some people outside his family - Goyle for one, who had just told Draco that he wasn't taking orders from him any more, and Harry when he refused to identify him.

That last interests me very much. Why did Draco do that? Was it to keep Voldemort away from the house? His father was keen to serve Harry Potter up to LV on a platter but Draco didn't want to be part of it. Or did he have feelings of guilt for the way he'd treated Harry in the past? Had he come to see Harry as a worthwhile person? Had he come over to the good side? If family loyalty was his main characteristic, then this act goes against it - he avoids the chance of putting the Malfoys back in Voldemort's good books.

Well JKR said:

"He was prepared to come over to Dumbledore's side. I hope you see that there's some of that same feeling in Book Seven, when he does try to protect Harry."

So it would seem that Draco did put Harry's safety before his family. However, I feel that he thought Harry was the best chance of ridding the world of Voldemort and I believe he wanted that both for his family's safety and because he rejected being a Death Eater in the end, once he was faced with the reality of it (killing Dumbledore, watching Charity die, etc.)

and Harry when he refused to identify him.

That last interests me very much. Why did Draco do that?

I think and it's a guess at best; I think that by the time Draco saw Harry in Malfoy Manor, he was throughly horrified by Voldemort and his followers and all that they were prepared to do to gain power and then, all that they were prepared to do once they assumed power. I think suddenly mudbloods and muggles were not such a big thing for Draco, and he could care less about blood status.

He wanted out and for him there was no way out at all; he had the mark, his father was a death eater and out of favour as well, having lost his wand and nothing was looking good for him and his family.

I think Draco at some point in time, perhaps after Charity Burbage's death, started hoping and thinking like the rest of the WW. Perhaps, he also thought Harry to be the "Chosen One" and he rather desperately, though very secretly hoped and even prayed that Harry would indeed vanquish Voldemort once and for all and allow them to live in peace.

When he was called to identify Harry, even when Lucius was desperate that the boy be Harry and asked Draco to say "yes" so that the Malfoys would return to favour with the dark lord, Draco, I think had enough of dark lords and death eaters.

I would like to think he refused to identify Harry for that reason. :)

I think and it's a guess at best; I think that by the time Draco saw Harry in Malfoy Manor, he was throughly horrified by Voldemort and his followers and all that they were prepared to do to gain power and then, all that they were prepared to do once they assumed power. I think suddenly mudbloods and muggles were not such a big thing for Draco, and he could care less about blood status.

He wanted out and for him there was no way out at all; he had the mark, his father was a death eater and out of favour as well, having lost his wand and nothing was looking good for him and his family.

I think Draco at some point in time, perhaps after Charity Burbage's death, started hoping and thinking like the rest of the WW. Perhaps, he also thought Harry to be the "Chosen One" and he rather desperately, though very secretly hoped and even prayed that Harry would indeed vanquish Voldemort once and for all and allow them to live in peace.

When he was called to identify Harry, even when Lucius was desperate that the boy be Harry and asked Draco to say "yes" so that the Malfoys would return to favour with the dark lord, Draco, I think had enough of dark lords and death eaters.

I would like to think he refused to identify Harry for that reason. :)

I think you're probably right. It says a lot about Draco that at this point he is defying his father (although Lucius doesn't know that) because he is hoping Harry can take LV down. Did Draco know about the prophecy? I assume not as few did, so he wouldn't see Harry as the man who would do it for that reason. And as Harry was only 17 I'm surprised that Draco thought he could overcome the Dark Lord. So my assumption is that Draco had had Death Eaters and Voldy up to the back teeth and didn't want anything more to do with them.

Yet when he was back at school and followed Harry into the RoR, he was ready then to hand Harry over. What changed?

I think you're probably right. It says a lot about Draco that at this point he is defying his father (although Lucius doesn't know that) because he is hoping Harry can take LV down. Did Draco know about the prophecy? I assume not as few did, so he wouldn't see Harry as the man who would do it for that reason. And as Harry was only 17 I'm surprised that Draco thought he could overcome the Dark Lord. So my assumption is that Draco had had Death Eaters and Voldy up to the back teeth and didn't want anything more to do with them.

Yet when he was back at school and followed Harry into the RoR, he was ready then to hand Harry over. What changed?His own life was in danger in the RoR. At his own home, Voldemort had been taking up house space for months and he and his parents didn't like it. Draco didn't identify Harry as an act of defiance against Voldemort, not for Harry. I don't think he cared one way or another for Harry at this point. In the RoR it was quite different, because at this point it had already become established that Voldemort wanted Harry. He had yelled it to the whole school.

Draco was only interested in his own survival at this point. He knew he would be rewarded by Voldemort if he brought him Harry. So he did. I don't think he was doing it to get revenge on Harry or something silly like that, I think he was doing it to save his own life. Voldemort had said that the Malfoys were useless and Draco feared he would kill him. Draco was selfish and cowardly until the very end, willing to give someone else's life as long as it would save his own.

Yet when he was back at school and followed Harry into the RoR, he was ready then to hand Harry over. What changed?

Draco did not do anything to Harry, Hermione, or Ron in that scene. The plan was Crabbe's, it would appear. Draco stayed behind with him and Goyle, but I do not think it is at all clear why he did so. What he did say (as opposed to do) seemed to have the aim of deflecting Crabbe from his initial purpose by interestinghim in the object of Harry's quest, and to prevent the use of deadly force by his friends (he sounded rather like Snape in HBP's "The Flight of the Prince" to me. SNape, of course, was totally insincere there, his motive was not to obey Voldmeort, but to protect Harry).

Draco was selfish and cowardly until the very end, willing to give someone else's life as long as it would save his own.

Draco faced deadly cursed fire in an attempt to drag his unconscious friend Goyle to safety. I'd say his cowardice is greatly overstated,

I think you're probably right. It says a lot about Draco that at this point he is defying his father (although Lucius doesn't know that) because he is hoping Harry can take LV down. Did Draco know about the prophecy? I assume not as few did, so he wouldn't see Harry as the man who would do it for that reason. And as Harry was only 17 I'm surprised that Draco thought he could overcome the Dark Lord. So my assumption is that Draco had had Death Eaters and Voldy up to the back teeth and didn't want anything more to do with them.

Yet when he was back at school and followed Harry into the RoR, he was ready then to hand Harry over. What changed?

I agree with zgirnius. I think the plan was Crabbe's and he was the one who was throwing AKs all around. Draco was trying to stop him, of course he wastelling Crabbe that Voldemort wanted Harry alive, but I think that was only to stop Crabbe from killing Harry or the others IMO.

I don't think Draco cast a single spell in the ROR. He was trying to stop Crabbe from casting AK's and other spells IMO.

He had stopped being a death eater by then I think.

I agree with zgirnius. I think the plan was Crabbe's and he was the one who was throwing AKs all around. Draco was trying to stop him, of course he wastelling Crabbe that Voldemort wanted Harry alive, but I think that was only to stop Crabbe from killing Harry or the others IMO.

I don't think Draco cast a single spell in the ROR. He was trying to stop Crabbe from casting AK's and other spells IMO.

He had stopped being a death eater by then I think.

I can buy into that idea. Certainly he was trying to prevent the others from killing Harry & co and the question is, do we think what he was saying was true (Voldemort wants Harry alive) or that it was an excuse to save Harry? I agree that his main concern was his own skin at this point, but can we be sure that handing Harry over to LV wasn't the best way to preserve it?

I certainly wouldn't call Draco a coward in this scene - his heroism in rescuing Goyle is worthy of note and even his reluctance to leave Crabbe. The fear he shows later when trying to persuade a DE he's on their side is natural in that he is in a battle without a wand!

I can buy into that idea. Certainly he was trying to prevent the others from killing Harry & co and the question is, do we think what he was saying was true (Voldemort wants Harry alive) or that it was an excuse to save Harry? I agree that his main concern was his own skin at this point, but can we be sure that handing Harry over to LV wasn't the best way to preserve it?

If Draco wanted to hand over Harry, then he had his chance in his home itself, in Malfoy Manor, when he could have identified Harry and saved himself and his father. But he chose not to IMO.

I also think in the same way, he would not have handed over Harry to Voldemort. I think we did not have that scene, mainly because that would make Harry obligated to Draco and made Draco a hero on par with the Trio. Otherwise, I really think Draco would have let Harry off, had Crabbe and Goyle captured him.

I can buy into that idea. Certainly he was trying to prevent the others from killing Harry & co and the question is, do we think what he was saying was true (Voldemort wants Harry alive) or that it was an excuse to save Harry? I agree that his main concern was his own skin at this point, but can we be sure that handing Harry over to LV wasn't the best way to preserve it?I still don't buy that, really. If he wasn't up for going along with Crabbe's plan, then why did he even go into the RoR? He could have just gone to the Hog's Head with the rest of them and have nothing to do with it. He knew Voldemort wanted Harry alive, so he wanted to bring Harry to him alive. He would do whatever it took to please the Dark Lord at this point. I don't see any other way to save his own skin than handing over Harry. He wouldn't be doing much good in the Hog' Head.I certainly wouldn't call Draco a coward in this scene - his heroism in rescuing Goyle is worthy of note and even his reluctance to leave Crabbe. The fear he shows later when trying to persuade a DE he's on their side is natural in that he is in a battle without a wand!Draco didn't rescue Goyle, Harry did. Harry turned around on the way to the exit to go get Goyle. If I'm correct, Malfoy yelled something along the lines of, "What are you doing?! The door's that way!" IMO that is very cowardly. Harry was controling the broom, Draco was on the back.

If Draco wanted to hand over Harry, then he had his chance in his home itself, in Malfoy Manor, when he could have identified Harry and saved himself and his father. But he chose not to IMO.I don't think Draco knew that Harry was a real threat at this point. Also, Draco's life wasn't in danger, so he didn't feel the need to please Voldemort and spare himself.

Here's a thought: What if Malfoy really didn't recognize Harry?

I also think in the same way, he would not have handed over Harry to Voldemort. I think we did not have that scene, mainly because that would make Harry obligated to Draco and made Draco a hero on par with the Trio. Otherwise, I really think Draco would have let Harry off, had Crabbe and Goyle captured him.

I find Draco's motivations with regard to the Trio difficult to read. I think it's because he's conflicted himself. While he doesn't really seem to want to do anything to harm the Trio, he also doesn't seem willing to do much to help them, in my opinion.

In Malfoy Manor, Draco choses not to identify The Trio which could indicate that he wants to help them. But at the same time, he had the option of declaring that they were not The Trio and he didn't do that either. In my opinion, he is staying neutral. Later, he is sent down to the cellar to retrieve Griphook. This would have been an opportunity to help them (give them a wand, plan a counterattack, whatever), but he again choses not to do it. He doesn't harm them in this scene either, he just does nothing. Later, when Ron and Harry storm the drawing room, Draco does do a few spells (to what end, we do not know. Maybe he aimed at nothing and just did it for show, maybe he aimed at the Trio, Maybe he was aiming at Greyback) and then picks up Ron and Harry's wands after Bellatrix forces them to drop them. Harry later grabs the wands back from Draco, and it's possible that Draco didn't put up much of a fight.

Then, in the RoR, Draco does not attack the Trio. He tries to verbally get Crabbe to stop attacking Harry, but does not use his wand to either help nor hinder Crabbe.

I suspect that Draco just wants out of the entire business. He just wants the war to end. I don't think he hates the Trio anymore. I think he realizes that was all trivial given what he has experienced over the last two years. Given his druthers, I think that he would much rather have Voldermort lose, but he's perhaps not really willing to directly oppose Voldemort. His mother, Narcissa, actually does turn on Voldemort and lies right to his face.

I think it is very commendable what Draco did for Goyle. This shows that he is capable of thinking of others. He quite simply risked his life for Goyle, in my opinion. Dragging Goyle greatly slowed him down and he refused to let go of him even when he could see rescue slipping away. I always thought Crabbe and Goyle were just his muscles. I never really thought of them as friends. Draco earned a lot of redemption from me here.

ETA:
.Draco didn't rescue Goyle, Harry did. Harry turned around on the way to the exit to go get Goyle. If I'm correct, Malfoy yelled something along the lines of, "What are you doing?! The door's that way!" IMO that is very cowardly. Harry was controling the broom, Draco was on the back.


When Draco yells that, Goyle is already on Ron's broom and headed for the door. Harry spots the diadem and turns back to catch it. Draco has no idea why Harry is turning away from the door (he doesn't even know what a diadem is). I don't think that's cowardly. He's being kind of sensible. He may think that Harry is just going in the wrong direction. Or if he does think that Harry is trying to get the diadem, he may think it's not worth risking your life for an object not realizing it's importance.

I think the following does show that Draco is insistent on saving Goyle:

Malfoy saw him coming, and raised one arm, but even as Harry grasped it, he knew it was no good: Goyle was too heavy and Malfoy's hand, covered in sweat, slid instantly out of Harry's -

Once he is spotted, Malfoy could have just concentrated on saving himself. He could have put up both hands. He could have dropped Goyle when he realized that Harry couldn't lift the both of them. He didn't. In my opinion, Draco risked himself to save Goyle.

I think the most obvious display of Draco's courage in rescuing Goyle comes even earlier:

Malfoy grabbed the stunned Goyle and dragged him along; Crabbe outstripped them all, now looking terrified; Harry, Ron, and Hermione pelted along in his wake, and the fire pursued them. It was not a normal fire; Crabbe had used a curse of which Harry had no knowledge: As they turned a corner, the flames chased them as though they were alive, sentient, intent upon killing them.

So, Crabbe takes off running, as do the Trio. Malfoy, the "coward", grabs his unconscious friend, who is also twice his size, and drags him along out of the way of the flames. Probably not running - more like staggering under all that weight, but he keeps with it.

He later is found on top of a pile of debris, still with the unconscious Goyle, whom he must therefore have dragged all the way there rather than abandoning him in order to move more quickly as the others did. And even then, as was pointed out, he did not release Goyle when Harry came to his rescue.

His later screaming that they should fly to the door, seems entirely sensible to me rather than cowardly, since he knows of no reason to stick around longer. And, to me, as an obvious display of fear, it underlines the courage of Draco's previous actions, because it shows he took them in spite of being terrified of the Fiendfyre.

I still don't buy that, really. If he wasn't up for going along with Crabbe's plan, then why did he even go into the RoR? He could have just gone to the Hog's Head with the rest of them and have nothing to do with it.

There are two logical reasons Draco might do this, other than an intention to turn Harry over to Voldemort.

The first is to avoid the fight, to avoid fighting on Voldemort's side. He is not in the same position as all the other kids. He is an adult, and (in my opinion, on the bulk of the evidence) a marked Death Eater. If Voldemort wins, and Draco leaves the school with the others, he will have to explain why he, a marked Death Eater, stayed at the Hog's Head rather than turning up in the Forest to fight for his Dark Lord. "Because I was trying to help with a sneakly plan to bring you Potter" is certainly a reasonable answer. And not only Draco's life depends on this - Draco is at this point well aware his parents could share in any unpleasantness that may result.

The second possible reason, is to stay on top of Crabbe's plan and make sure it does not succeed, if he can, preferably without giving this away. I find his actions in the RoR entirely consistent with such a motivation.

Here's a thought: What if Malfoy really didn't recognize Harry?

He would also have to fail to recognize Ronald and Hermione, whose appearance was not greatly altered. I find this incredibly unlikely.

I
I don't think Draco knew that Harry was a real threat at this point. Also, Draco's life wasn't in danger, so he didn't feel the need to please Voldemort and spare himself.

I respectfully disagree with this. Harry was always a threat; capturing him was the most important job and I think Draco was well aware of this IMO. Lucius was so out of favour that Voldmeort felt he would not need his wand. So identifying Harry would have helped Draco and his father. But he did not IMO.

I find Draco's motivations with regard to the Trio difficult to read.

I think Draco did not like them very much, but he also wanted out of the war and Harry winning was the only way he saw his escape from the situation he was in at that time. So after HBP, I think draco's motivations were driven by his opinion of Voldmeort, the war and what he saw of the death eaters. To that extent, I think he was very clear IMO.

Well, there is what JKR has said about Draco's actions in DH (he was trying to protect Harry though she doesn't specify if it's in Malfoy Manor or the RoR, I think it was only the former but who knows) but since I've posted that a few times already, I'll just go with my opinions.

Draco didn't rescue Goyle, Harry did. Harry turned around on the way to the exit to go get Goyle.

Ron and Hermione, to be exact, are the ones who saved Goyle. Draco tried to save Goyle by dragging him away from the fire but since he didn't have a wand or a broom that was the best he could do. Then the Trio flew over, Ron and Hermione took Goyle and Harry took Draco.

Here's a thought: What if Malfoy really didn't recognize Harry?

Aside from what JKR has said (Draco was trying to protect Harry), I think he did know who it was. He gives the same hedging answers when asked about Ron and Hermione. Draco knew it was the Trio and Harry knew he did as well.

As for Draco's actions, my own views are probably closest to what wingardium713 has said.

Let's look at it this way: Draco's been living in a non-stop torture-fest for the past several months. He is likely the Head Boy at school (with Snape and the DE in charge, who else is a likely candidate?) and with the new regime there that means he is either in charge of capturing people for punishment by the Carrows or even punishing them himself. Or both, most likely.

At home, we've seen he's had to torture people (like Rowle) and there are people being held there to be tortured or even killed (like Charity Burbage). In both instances this would even include people he knows, like Luna and Ollivander and while he had negative warm feelings towards them there's still a gulf between disliking someone and watching them being tortured repeatedly in your home.

So, the Snatchers capture the Trio and Draco sees an opening. Not just to prevent someone else he knows from being tortured but also a way out. Maybe he thought that if the Trio escaped, they'd be willing to take him and parents out of there as well? For helping them with Draco's refusal to identify them?

However, while Draco does have a good reason to pretend he doesn't recognize Harry he doesn't when it comes to Ron and Hermione. They haven't disguised their faces and his parents recognize them. He could lie but then it would be suspicious and he's not just there with his parents, other DE like Fenrir and Bella were in there waiting for his ID as well. So, Draco gives a half-hearted attempt at playing dumb before admitting that it's probably Ron and Hermione.

(I was always interested at how Lucius and Narcissa seemed to have no clue at what Draco was doing.)

Later, during their escape, Lucius is knocked out first by one of Harry's spells. That's when Draco jumps into the fray, presumably to protect/avenge his dad, himsel and his mom. Before that the Malfoys are just described as "wheeling about".

I think what happened at Malfoy Manor has a lot to do with the RoR. As we know from Harry's Voldievision later, on the night of the battle Lucius was looking really banged-up. The Malfoys had been punished, just as they feared they would be, for having and losing Harry. Lucius worst of all, probably because he was supposed to be in charge and because Voldie hasn't been happy with him for a long time (as evidenced by him taking Lucius' wand and even Lucius own words that if they were to capture Harry "all would be forgiven"). So, to Draco's estimation, after he tries to help Harry all he gets is his wand stolen and is tortured along with his parents.

And Draco being Draco, would blame Harry for this and probably resolve to be the best little Death Eater he can be and when he sees his chance to capture Harry, he takes it.

I think it was Draco, not Crabbe, who thought up the plan to go into the RoR after Harry. Though there is something odd about the fact that he hides behind them. While, yes, those two were often the backup for him, they usually stayed in the back. Draco led, they flanked him. This time, that's reversed with Draco following. This could be many things: Draco doesn't have his own wand in the RoR and presumably did not win his mother's wand so he may not be certain about his magical ability, it may reflect Crabbe's new fight for dominance in their little Trio, it may reflect Draco's overall uncertainty either with this scheme or with Death Eating in general or some combination of these.

That Draco yells at Crabbe and Goyle not to hurt Harry and even stops them from doing probably means a few things: 1), the Dark Lord stupidly wants to be the one to kill Harry so has made orders that he must be captured alive, 2) Draco is trying to figure out why they're looking for the diadem and 3.) he is ambivalent to his own plan or at least to seeing them Crucio-d. The latter because, as Crabbe rightly reasons (there's three words that you'd never thought you'd see strung together, eh) they're not killing Harry, just hurting. There's no logical reason not to Crucio Harry and it could even help if it were to make Ron and Hermione talk in an effort to stop them from hurting Harry.

(Though I doubt Crabbe thought it out beyond "yay! torture!" but who knows?)

Still, Draco tries to stop him from killing Harry but without much success as he loses his wand again and then hides from Hermione. And JKR exacts her own form of justice as the only one who actively tried to hurt and kill people in the RoR (Crabbe) is also the only one to actually die.

In conclusion: Draco was conflicted, didn't have much of a plan between not dying and trying to get those he cared about (parents and friends) not to die either but as JKR has said, he lacked the moral courage to jump ship even though his faith in the DE and Voldie were wavering.

Later, he is sent down to the cellar to retrieve Griphook. This would have been an opportunity to help them (give them a wand, plan a counterattack, whatever), but he again choses not to do it.

This is true though I've always found the scene where Draco retrieves Griphook to be very curious. Specifically, that he doesn't hear Dobby Apparate into the cellar. He had just closed the door and couldn't have been that far away from it but he doesn't hear a thing. Doesn't hear Ron shout "DOB" even though you can hear through the door, as proven by the fact that they heard Draco when he gave his orders to stand up and line against the wall. But, still Draco hears nothing.

Yet, a page later, Lucius can hear them Apparate out of the cellar even though he's on another level of the house and is a little busy with the Hermione-torture-and-Griphook-interrogation-thing going on in front of him. Over all that noise, he can still hear what's happening downstairs and yet when Draco was in the same room, he doesn't react to someone Apparating in and Ron yelling "DOB".

Weird.

(Note: I'm not necessarily saying that JKR intended for Draco to have heard something there and have ignored it. However, if she later reveals that was her intention, I wouldn't be surprised.)

I respectfully disagree with this. Harry was always a threat; capturing him was the most important job and I think Draco was well aware of this IMO. Lucius was so out of favour that Voldmeort felt he would not need his wand. So identifying Harry would have helped Draco and his father. But he did not IMO.

:tu: He was Undesirable Number One. Greyback, Lucius, and Bella got into a fight over who would get the credit for having captured him. I don't see how Draco could have missed his importance. :)

He is likely the Head Boy at school (with Snape and the DE in charge, who else is a likely candidate?)

Since we do see Draco in school uniform, and no mention is made of Head Boy insignia...I conclude he was not Head Boy. I'd guess that distinction went to Ernie MacMillan at the start of the year. Sprout would have nominated him, I imagine, and Snape approved it for all the obvious reasons. He was a Prefect, he was a good student, and as a Pureblood of good family (his genealogy is mentioned in CoS, pure for 9 generations), would be eminently acceptable to Voldemort).

and with the new regime there that means he is either in charge of capturing people for punishment by the Carrows or even punishing them himself. Or both, most likely.

Here I disagree even more. Neville complains about students who do this - Crabbe and Goyle. The non-mention of Malfoy in this connection seems telling. We do know Draco tortured people as a Death Eater, on Voldmeort's orders and in his presence, and I think that's it. Without Voldemort standiong over him, he would not do it. Just my opinoin, naturally. :)

I think it was Draco, not Crabbe, who thought up the plan to go into the RoR after Harry.

The "oddity" you point out, of Draco following rather than leading, seems to be betetr explained by supposing that in this case, Draco is tagging along. There is also the fact that Crabbe speaks for himself, and explicitly states he does not obey Draco anymnore. For all these reasons, I think it is his plan.

(Note: I'm not necessarily saying that JKR intended for Draco to have heard something there and have ignored it. However, if she later reveals that was her intention, I wouldn't be surprised.)

I find the reading you have suggested here, convincing.

Here I disagree even more. Neville complains about students who do this - Crabbe and Goyle. The non-mention of Malfoy in this connection seems telling. We do know Draco tortured people as a Death Eater, on Voldmeort's orders and in his presence, and I think that's it. Without Voldemort standiong over him, he would not do it. Just my opinoin, naturally. :)

I didn't remember this - I thought he was freaking out about the torturing both in the first chapter and at Malfoy Manor because he hadn't. Was this said in the last part, during the battle or something? Or did I miss it in Malfoy Manor?

Here I disagree even more. Neville complains about students who do this - Crabbe and Goyle. The non-mention of Malfoy in this connection seems telling.

Good point.

Hey, wouldn't it be funny if Crabbe was Head Boy? I really can't see them making a non-Slytherin, purported member of the DA like Macmillian Head Boy. But who's to say it wasn't Crabbe? I'm sure the Carrows put in word for his newfound ability.

I firmly believe the Head Boy and Girl that year were both pureblood Slytherins, most likely Draco and Pansy.

I still say the RoR thing was Draco's plan or at the least, a plan agreed upon by both Crabbe and Draco. Draco is the first to speak upon their arrival. Something I always found interesting since it would have been easier to simply stun Harry rather than announce his presence. However, Draco may not have been able to do that with his mother's wand - it might not have worked that well for him which could be why he fires no spells while in the RoR.

(Before it all hit the fan, Draco seemed more interested in getting his wand back than anything else. It's the first thing he mentions.)

However, that Crabbe doesn't stun/Crucio/AK Harry makes me think Draco had some say in this, at the very least. If Draco wasn't in the lead it makes no sense that they start out by letting him call the shots till Crabbe gets tired of his dithering.

Hey, wouldn't it be funny if Crabbe was Head Boy? I really can't see them making a non-Slytherin, purported member of the DA like Macmillian Head Boy.

It's not "they", it's Snape, who would make such a decision. I doubt Snape explained the DA to the Carrows. It's possible he decided making Crabbe or someone of his sort Head Boy was the right move (this would perhaps play well with reinstating the Umbridge regulations). But it is also possible he picked someone who would have seemed a likely candidate before the regime change in the government, in the interest of "normalcy". After all, he kept two Order members on his staff, which seems a bigger deal, to me.

But as relates to the topic of this thread - I merely do not believe it was Draco who was Head Boy.

However, that Crabbe doesn't stun/Crucio/AK Harry makes me think Draco had some say in this, at the very least. If Draco wasn't in the lead it makes no sense that they start out by letting him call the shots till Crabbe gets tired of his dithering.

I had not noticed that Draco speaking up prevented an ambush by Crabbe and Goyle. I'm afraid it confirms me in my opinion of Draco's motives and plans in the scene, though. If he wanted the plan to work, we know he has the brains and cunning to take Harry by surprise rather than grandstanding. He already did so in the train scene of HBP. :)

I think it is also notable that Draco knew about the enchanted coins, for example. He employed the same method - and still we hear Neville say that the Carrows were never able to figure out how the DA members managed to stay in contact. If Draco had been any eager to blow them up, he could have mentioned this means of communication as a possibility - but he clearly didn't.

Though i agree that he didn't mention the coins, did his best to not help the DE's at Malfoy Mansion and never tortured the other students but I do think he wanted to capture Harry in RoR. Certainly, he wanted his wand back. But you have to keep in mind things looked pretty gloomy for Harry's cause at this point. Harry wouldn't be able to Disapparate out of this one and all Draco could do at this point is capture Harry and restore his family's honor before it was too late.

But those two things contradict one another. Draco could have facilitated the capture of Harry at Malfoy Manor - and Harry's cause looked even worse at that point. At the final battle, there were at least a number of people behind Harry and so his cause was looking a little better. In both cases Draco was trying to save his family - but I would disagree that he ever believed that restoring their honor with Voldemort would benefit them. I feel he understood that route would never work for them. Like his mother, I think Draco realized that Harry was the only hope of Salvation for the family.

In the ROR, Crabbe or Goyle, I forget which sent the crucio curse at Harry and afterwards, Draco yells "Don't Kill Him." and Crabbe/Goyle remarked that they hadn't tried to kill - which was true. But it made no sense for Draco to yell at his friend to stop the crucio curse if he wanted to capture Harry - that was a great way to subdue him - crucio him and then while he was weak, take him to Voldemort.

Also, when they discovered that Harry wanted the Diadem, Draco suddenly became interested in finding it also. That too made no sense if the point was to capture Harry and take him to Voldemort to be killed, then Draco could just tell Voldemort about it and if it was important, Voldemort could retrieve it. So I feel Draco was trying to allow Harry to get the resource because he felt it would allow him to destroy the man who was tormenting his family.

Also when Harry and Ron later discovered Draco, he was trying to convince some DE that he was on his side. If Draco had been fighting for Voldemort at the time, he wouldn't have had to convince anyone of anything. So he was either doing nothing or actually doing something that made it look like he was assisting the good side at the time and it became necessary for him to have to state his allegiance.

Now I think Draco was always out for himself and his family and JKR felt that we would be behind Ron when he subsequently punched Draco in the mouth when he and Harry rescued him from the DE. But I wasn't. I thought that was truly poor behavior on Ron's part. It was like, sure, I'll save your life, but then I'm gonna punch your lights out. I liked the Ron character better than the Draco character, but I couldn't stand behind that particular move on Ron's part. That was just dirty tactics and abuse of one's temporary power over another. But to give credit to JKR, from the point of view of merely telling an entertaining tale, it was funny.

Though i agree that he didn't mention the coins, did his best to not help the DE's at Malfoy Mansion and never tortured the other students but I do think he wanted to capture Harry in RoR. Certainly, he wanted his wand back. But you have to keep in mind things looked pretty gloomy for Harry's cause at this point. Harry wouldn't be able to Disapparate out of this one and all Draco could do at this point is capture Harry and restore his family's honor before it was too late.

I like to think that Draco was smart enough by this point to realize that Voldemort could not be trusted. Even if he turned Harry over to Voldemort and got his family a temporary lift out of the doghouse, sooner or later, Voldemort would get angry with them again. He had had a front row seat for months as to how Voldemort acted in his own house. He'd seen how Pettigrew, who gave up a body part to give Voldemort back his body, was treated. He'd seen how his Aunt Bellatrix, a dedicated Death Eater if there ever was one, was punished for making a mistake. He'd been forced to torture one of the DEs who failed to capture Harry at Tottenheim Court Rd. He had to have known by this point that he was only as good as his last mission as far as Voldemort was concerned. Nobody mattered to Voldemort except Voldemort.

Plus, he didn't seem to have a stomach for killing, in my opinion. He couldn't kill Dumbledore. He didn't appear to have participated in the torturing of students. He didn't identify the Trio. He had trouble dealing with his job in HBP and ended up crying to Myrtle. Moaning Myrtle! He was visibly affected by the execution of a teacher in the beginning of DH. A teacher he probably never had since she taught a subject he was derisive about. I just don't think that Draco has a killer instinct. In my opinion, he found out in HBP that there is a difference between shouting slogans and actually harming/killing somebody.

I don't think that he would have turned Harry over to be killed.

I think that Draco was much more like his mother. I think that she realized that following Voldemort was going to get you nowhere. His father on the other hand seems like a compulsive gambler, to me. Lucius keeps thinking that he is always one dice throw away from making it rich regardless of how much money he is already in the hole. With Voldemort, the house odds appear to be stacked very much against you. In my opinion.

ETA: Now I think Draco was always out for himself and his family and JKR felt that we would be behind Ron when he subsequently punched Draco in the mouth when he and Harry rescued him from the DE. But I wasn't. I thought that was truly poor behavior on Ron's part. It was like, sure, I'll save your life, but then I'm gonna punch your lights out. I liked the Ron character better than the Draco character, but I couldn't stand behind that particular move on Ron's part. That was just dirty tactics and abuse of one's temporary power over another. But to give credit to JKR, from the point of view of merely telling an entertaining tale, it was funny.

I was willing to give Ron a pass on this. It wasn't the most sportsmanly thing that he has ever done, but I can see his frame of mind at the time. Here is the guy that nearly killed him the year before. Here is the guy that stood by and watched as the love of Ron's life got tortured and nearly fed to a werewolf. Here is the guy who played a crucial role in setting up the situation where Voldemort was strong enough position to take on the Wizarding Wolrd. Here is the guy that he just risked his life to save. He keeps helping to save the life of this guy he hates (with some pretty good reason) and he could do nothing to save his own brother mere moments before. I'd be pretty frustrated too. I think he wanted Draco to know it was them that saved him again and he wanted some kind of revenge. It would have made him the better person to have said "Oi, Draco, we just saved you again. Think about it!", but I'll give him a pass because of his mental state. From a literary point of view, it also mirrors Hermione slapping Draco in PoA (we see a couple of parallel Hermione/Ron actions in this chapter).

I might have mentioned in the past that I'm really, seriously, not a Ron fan. But he's got my full sympathies in this moment. For all the reasons that wingardium pointed out. And what is more - I don't think Draco even minds that much in this moment. For a start - a black eye will look good, when he comes across the next Death Eater. "Hey, LOOK at me - they took my wand, they knocked me out - I did my fair share of fighting, folks!" Also, I think sometimes, you just know that you deserve a slap. PoA-Draco hadn't yet achieved that frame of mind. But DH-Draco is, I believe, fully aware of his unglorious position. Especially after the Trio risked their necks to save HIM of all people, he knows he owes his life to them. Ron could have cursed him to pieces - I think Draco knows that he's got off easy with a little punch on the pointy chin, in a manner of speaking "If THIS is your way of getting square - go ahead, man."

Draco isn't one for fair play, but I absolutely think he recognises when he's being treated 'unfairly' to his own benefit.


@ wicked - :tu: :tu: :tu: Everything you've said.

Goyle and Crabbe would have gotten lost in the RoR if Draco wasn't there to hold their hands and let's face it Draco doesn't have the heart to risk it all to get his wand back.

Why do you say that? I feel Goyle and Crabbe took the lead.

No, I can accep that they are portrayed as a lot more competant in this book and they are actually good at Dark magic. But only Draco knows how to get into the Chamber of Lost and (somethingsomething), and he certainly is the only one who knows the way once your inside. Either they pushed him into this, which I absolutly refuse to accept as an explanation or he led them up to the actual confrontation with Harry.

Also interesting to note, Draco doesn't do much to help the Carrows get into the RoR when the DA is in there. He's able to get inside when the Trio is there and when asked how, points out to how he lived there all of last year. Clearly, he knows how to get inside to use it for the same purposes as others and I'm sure he's figured out where the D.A. is meeting/hiding. The whole reason he knew about the RoR in the first place was because of his time on the Inquisitorial Squad in his 5th year.

So, surely, he would have been the go-to guy when it comes to getting inside the RoR but we don't hear about anything like that from Neville.

I still maintain that Draco wanted to go into the RoR during the Battle of Hogwarts though his reasons for doing so might be complex. He could have:

- Been curious as to what the Trio was up to
- Wanted his wand back because the battle is going on now and from the way he didn't do any spells, I'm guessing his mom's wand wasn't working so well for him. (This explains why he doesn't stun Harry or do an Expelliarmus - he might not have been able to.)
- Not to mention, if Draco has his mom's wand, his parents are left with nothing to defend themselves during the battle.
- To capture Harry - alive - and bring him to Voldemort. His family is on dangerous ground for letting him escape and capturing Harry would be a good way to "right" that.
- To find out what the diadem is, where it is and what it does.
- Some people bandied the idea about that he wanted to hide in the RoR or find the Vanishing Cabinet and go back home. The only reason I nix this idea is because I don't think he'd leave without his parents.

The more I think about it, the more I think Draco went into the RoR to get his wand. He may have let Crabbe think otherwise or may have intended to capture Harry after he had the wand but getting his wand back was Draco's first and foremost concern.

Now I think Draco was always out for himself and his family and JKR felt that we would be behind Ron when he subsequently punched Draco in the mouth when he and Harry rescued him from the DE.

I never got that at all. I think it was supposed to show how angry Ron was about Fred, who died not minutes before. Like I've said before, I'm sure Ron was angry that they could save Draco - twice - but not save his brother. He wasn't in a rational state of mind.

Also, while Draco was very insistent about them not killing Harry, he doesn't say anything about the Avada Kedavra's Crabbe sent towards Ron and Hermione. Ron might be a tad miffed at that.

(And how the heck did Crabbe learn how to pull off effective Killing Curses?!)

I think it is especially wierd how he prioritises the diadem. He came over to at first as a smart and capable servant of Voldemort. He's not even close.

No, I can accep that they are portrayed as a lot more competant in this book and they are actually good at Dark magic. But only Draco knows how to get into the Chamber of Lost and (somethingsomething),

But how do we know that Draco is the only one who knows how to access it at this point?

But how do we know that Draco is the only one who knows how to access it at this point?

In the RoR scene, when asked how they got in Draco answers that he practically lived in the RoR all last year which strongly hints that it was Draco who got them inside. And Neville says in "The Lost Diadem" that the Carrows have been trying to get in but have had no success.

Disregarding other people, thinking the same thought three times in a row is little much to ask of Crabbe and Goyle.

(And how the heck did Crabbe learn how to pull off effective Killing Curses?!)

I think that Neville says something like the Carrows have openly started teaching the dark arts and the unforgivables and that apart from Crabbe and Goyle, no one seemed to benefit or learn.

Draco was not mentioned by Neville, only Crabbe and Goyle, I think.

(And how the heck did Crabbe learn how to pull off effective Killing Curses?!)

Perhaps he is a bit of a Dark Arts savant. Almost everybody is good at something. Crabbe just finally found his niche. Plus, when you enjoy doing something, you tend to be more motivated to improve at it.

(Please note that none of this is intended to bash Crabbe, I just think that we are not given much evidence to infer that he is intelligent on other fronts).

Back on subject, do people think that Draco could do an effective Killing Curse? I'm not sure. He doesn't seem to have that killer instinct (didn't kill Dumbledore and we never see him shoot of a killing curse), but he might if his family or himself were threatened. He seems adept at doing the Cruciatus curse (based on Voldemort using him to torture a DE in DH), but there is still a difference between torture and actually killing, in my opinion.

Good question, Dumbledore obviously doesn't think so. I think he could pull off an effective curse, but it would take a lot to actually get him to say Avada Kedavra. He wouldn't say it without actually meaning it.

I agree with Dumbledore and you two. Draco was raised in a very cushy environment, and I would think somewhat spoiled. The reality of war turned out to be far different from his expectations, and nothing like the privileged existence he was used to. It's only natural that he wouldn't be able to carry out what Voldemort asked him to. Until then, he'd only resorted to childish teasing. This was something entirely different, something he wasn't used to.

Goyle and Crabbe would have gotten lost in the RoR if Draco wasn't there to hold their hands and let's face it Draco doesn't have the heart to risk it all to get his wand back.
Once they got into the Room of Requirement, I do not think Crabbe and Goyle needed Draco's help. All they needed to do was follow Harry, Hermione, and Ron's voices. Nevertheless, Draco did seem fairly in charge at the beginning of his confrontation with Harry. It was not until he began bossing Crabbe and Goyle around that he lost control over them. Interestingly, though, the narration recognizes that Draco has little authority over his two former friends:
"Potter came in here to get it," said Malfoy with ill-disguised impatience at the slow-wittedness of his colleagues...
Every time before this, Crabbe and Goyle are introduced as Draco's cronies, but here, after Draco loses control over them, they are his "colleagues."
Also interesting to note, Draco doesn't do much to help the Carrows get into the RoR when the DA is in there. He's able to get inside when the Trio is there and when asked how, points out to how he lived there all of last year.
The Room of Requirement took a different form for the D.A.'s hideout than the Room of Hidden Things. The reason Draco was able to enter the Room of Requirement when Harry, Ron, and Hermione went in to get the diadem was because he guessed they were in the Room of Hidden Things (he, Crabbe, and Goyle heard Harry say he was looking for a diadum). He could not have gotten into the D.A.'s hideout because he did not know what it turned into for them (just like Harry could not get in when he just asked the Room to form the place where Draco was going secretly).

Also, Draco was in Malfoy Manor, not at Hogwarts, when the Carrows were trying to enter the Room of Requirement. While they could have asked for Draco's help, they probably did not think of him (they are not the brightest individuals), especially since they probably knew little of his endeavors the previous year (Draco was very possessive of his plan).

Back on subject, do people think that Draco could do an effective Killing Curse? I'm not sure.

Judging by Bellatrix's comments to him in Malfoy Manor ("If you haven't the guts to finish them, then leave them in the courtyard for me.") I'm going to say "no".

He could not have gotten into the D.A.'s hideout because he did not know what it turned into for them (just like Harry could not get in when he just asked the Room to form the place where Draco was going secretly).

I was thinking more of what he might know about the DA hideout from his 5th year time on the Inquisitorial Squad. But I haven't re-read OOTP in ages so my memory on what Draco may know about the RoR is rusty. (Obviously he knew it existed, since he used it the next year.)

Also, Draco was in Malfoy Manor, not at Hogwarts, when the Carrows were trying to enter the Room of Requirement. While they could have asked for Draco's help, they probably did not think of him (they are not the brightest individuals), especially since they probably knew little of his endeavors the previous year (Draco was very possessive of his plan).

The Carrows were among the riot squad coming to Hogwarts via the Vanishing Cabinet/Room of Requirement. They might not be the world's brightest individuals, but I doubt they were suffering from amnesia. What's more - I'd be more than astonished if the how's and what's had not been discussed among the Death Eaters in general at the victory party that must have followed Dumbledore's death.

The Carrows were among the riot squad coming to Hogwarts via the Vanishing Cabinet/Room of Requirement. They might not be the world's brightest individuals, but I doubt they were suffering from amnesia. What's more - I'd be more than astonished if the how's and what's had not been discussed among the Death Eaters in general at the victory party that must have followed Dumbledore's death.

I agree. I don't know if anyone ever really discussed things like that. I don't think Draco would have seen a need to tell the Carrows how to enter the Room of Requirement. Also, I thought that Neville was occupying it for most of the school year (although I could be wrong, because I haven't read Deathly Hallows the whole way through for a while), so I don't know if they would have been able to get in, even if Draco told them too.
Also, most Death Eaters didn't tell each other how they gained success for Voldemort, because almost all of them wanted to be his favorite. As for Draco, I think he was just trying to do what would help his father and mother, and that he never really saw the need to help the Carrows. I think he was most worried about keeping his family on Voldemort's good side, so they wouldn't get hurt.

I was thinking more of what he might know about the DA hideout from his 5th year time on the Inquisitorial Squad. But I haven't re-read OOTP in ages so my memory on what Draco may know about the RoR is rusty. (Obviously he knew it existed, since he used it the next year.)
I believe, once again, that they are two different rooms. In OotP, the D.A. did not have a hideout - it was a room to practice Defense Against the Dark Arts. In DH, they needed a place to hide, so the Room of Requirement, in my opinion, transformed into a different room. The D.A.'s needs were different, so Draco would not have been able to tell Alecto or Amycus what the Room turned into for the D.A.
The Carrows were among the riot squad coming to Hogwarts via the Vanishing Cabinet/Room of Requirement. They might not be the world's brightest individuals, but I doubt they were suffering from amnesia. What's more - I'd be more than astonished if the how's and what's had not been discussed among the Death Eaters in general at the victory party that must have followed Dumbledore's death.
The Carrows were among the Death Eaters who came through the Room of Requirement, certainly, but I do not believe Draco told them much about the room. The Death Eaters would have been more concerned with the task at hand and the Vanishing Cabinet. The Room of Requirement was just another room at that point - a mere storehouse of the cabinet. I believe Draco merely told the Death Eaters it was a secret room and that sufficed. I do not think the Death Eaters "discussed the hows and whats" about the Room of Requirement since Voldemort still believed, in DH, that he was the only one to discover the room. If the Carrows or the other Death Eaters knew more about the room, I am certain they would have told Voldemort, in which case he would not have been so secure. Thus, I am still convinced that Draco did not tell the Carrows or the others very much at all about the Room of Requirement.

I believe, once again, that they are two different rooms. In OotP, the D.A. did not have a hideout - it was a room to practice Defense Against the Dark Arts. In DH, they needed a place to hide, so the Room of Requirement, in my opinion, transformed into a different room. The D.A.'s needs were different, so Draco would not have been able to tell Alecto or Amycus what the Room turned into for the D.A.

I agree. And didn't Neville find a way of preventing the Room from allowing the Carrows in? Something in that bit when Seamus says, "Neville really gets this room"? That would have prevented Draco getting in too. Draco only knows it as the Room of Missing Things and may not even be aware it can be whatever you need it to be.


The Carrows were among the Death Eaters who came through the Room of Requirement, certainly, but I do not believe Draco told them much about the room. The Death Eaters would have been more concerned with the task at hand and the Vanishing Cabinet. The Room of Requirement was just another room at that point - a mere storehouse of the cabinet. I believe Draco merely told the Death Eaters it was a secret room and that sufficed. I do not think the Death Eaters "discussed the hows and whats" about the Room of Requirement since Voldemort still believed, in DH, that he was the only one to discover the room. If the Carrows or the other Death Eaters knew more about the room, I am certain they would have told Voldemort, in which case he would not have been so secure. Thus, I am still convinced that Draco did not tell the Carrows or the others very much at all about the Room of Requirement.

I agree here too. I don't think Draco thought much of the Carrows - they weren't exactly personal friends of his parents so he may not have known them well at all. They were also there when he failed to kill Dumbledore and I don't think that would have endeared them to Draco.

I do think that Draco knew where the DA were, he just couldn't get in. Otherwise why would he and C&G been waiting outside it? Of course, everyone knew where it was at this point since most of the school had been evacuated through it, but Draco thought it a good spot to lie in wait for Harry. I wonder why? My theory (eagerly awaiting its being shot down!) is that he hadn't left with the other Slytherins because that would have involved joining with Voldemort & fighting against the school which he didn't want to do - he didn't want to help Voldy any more. On the other hand if he stayed in the school and fought with Hogwarts, his wandless parents would be in grave danger. So he needed an excuse to stay put and trying to capture Harry for Voldy would have done fine. But he doesn't know what Harry is up to or where he'll be, and I doubt he fancies his chances of capturing Harry in the midst of a battle where he's surrounded by allies, so he finds a quiet corner to see the battle out. I feel that Draco was surprised when Harry actually turned up there and part of his reluctance to go along with Crabbe's plans was that he hadn't expected his "plan" to work at all! Harry should have been downstairs fighting DEs not up here where Draco was going to have to do something about it. So Draco tries to backpedal on capturing Harry and (as someone else points out) his main concern seems to be getting his own wand back. I do think that the plan was Draco's, partly because he was always the brains of the outfit, and secondly because he needed a convincing excuse for Crabbe & Goyle to explain why he wasn't rushing off to fight with Voldy. When Crabbe says, "We're gonna be rewarded. We 'ung back Potter. We decided not to go. Decided to bring you to 'im." it sounds to me as if Crabbe is quoting what he has been told. Otherwise, if he had taken over leadership of this particular trio, he'd have said "I decided".

That's my (current ) view anyway.

But how did Draco know the RoR existed in the first place, when the DA was there? I'm sure Dumbledore never mentioned it to him like he did to Harry. Same with Dobby. My guess is that Marietta told them, and that was how he discovered the RoR and of course later used in HBP. I don't think he knew where it was until the last meeting (along with Umbridge and the rest of the Inquisitorial Squad). If they had, they would have tried to catch the DA before.

I think that after the epilouge Draco will not befriend Harry, but he will be respected. He won't be respected by his fellow Slytherins, I think because he just turned around and changed what he believed in.

But how did Draco know the RoR existed in the first place, when the DA was there? I'm sure Dumbledore never mentioned it to him like he did to Harry. Same with Dobby. My guess is that Marietta told them, and that was how he discovered the RoR and of course later used in HBP. I don't think he knew where it was until the last meeting (along with Umbridge and the rest of the Inquisitorial Squad). If they had, they would have tried to catch the DA before.

I'm pretty sure you're right and it was Marietta who told Umbridge where the DA were meeting. Whether they'd have managed to get in though we can't tell as the DA all ran off and Harry got caught outside the room. Pansy went inside and found the list of the DA but I don't remember it saying that Draco went in.

Did Draco know that the room could become anything you needed or was he just looking for somewhere quiet?

Did Draco know that the room could become anything you needed or was he just looking for somewhere quiet?

No, I think he saw the ROR as only a hiding place, because he must have thought Harry and the others "hid" there and had meetings.

Draco's knowledge of the vanishing cupboard and his statement that he "lived" in the ROR almost all through 6th year and his lack of surprise when he entered the ROR after Harry in DH, where the ROR was only seen as a hiding place also shows that Draco knew the room only as a hiding place IMO. I think he was not aware he could change it to his requirements.

No, I think he saw the ROR as only a hiding place, because he must have thought Harry and the others "hid" there and had meetings.

Draco's knowledge of the vanishing cupboard and his statement that he "lived" in the ROR almost all through 6th year and his lack of surprise when he entered the ROR after Harry in DH, where the ROR was only seen as a hiding place also shows that Draco knew the room only as a hiding place IMO. I think he was not aware he could change it to his requirements.

But then how would he get inside? He had to walk in front of it three times with the desire for a place he could hide things. If he knew he could do that, he could easily figure out that it met whatever requirements he desired it would seem.

I think that Marietta would have told him where they "hid". And she may have also told him, how Harry got the room where they "hid". But she may not have known herself that one could get any room one liked, because she never saw any other room.

For her, it was a room where they hid and practised magic.

So I think that's what she would have told Malfoy, who may have gone to the room and walked 3 times wanting to see the place where one can hide. And I think the ROR got him the hiding place and not anything else.

I think he was just pacing through Hogwarts trying to figure out what to do and he came upon the room just like Dumbledore did.

Does it say how he got in the first time? I'm not sure where my copy of HBP is.

ETA Isn't it ironic that Voldemort thought that he was the only person who knew about the ROR when Draco brought a load of DEs in through it? You'd have thought that would have given Voldy a clue that all was not as safe as he'd assumed!

He's so cool-he's such a vulnerable character.

ETA Isn't it ironic that Voldemort thought that he was the only person who knew about the ROR when Draco brought a load of DEs in through it? You'd have thought that would have given Voldy a clue that all was not as safe as he'd assumed!Hmm- I'm not sure if Voldemort knew how Draco got the Death Eaters, just that he got them in. Details probably weren't too important for him. He was still confident that no one knew that his Horcruxes even existed at this point though, so he wouldn't have moved it. Interesting point, though. :D

I think he was just pacing through Hogwarts trying to figure out what to do and he came upon the room just like Dumbledore did.

He was a member of the Inquisitorial Squad in Book 5, and helped Umbridge get into the RoR to break up the DA meeting. I think he might have deduced the room's properties from that experience, as well.

Draco's knowledge of the vanishing cupboard and his statement that he "lived" in the ROR almost all through 6th year and his lack of surprise when he entered the ROR after Harry in DH, where the ROR was only seen as a hiding place also shows that Draco knew the room only as a hiding place IMO. I think he was not aware he could change it to his requirements.
I disagree. From that scene in DH, Draco appears to have guessed which room the Room of Requirement had turned into for Harry, searching for the diadem. He, Crabbe, and Goyle were hiding and heard Harry say he was looking for a diadem. Draco probably guessed it would be hidden in the Room of Hidden Things, but he seems to understand that the Room of Requirement is not just that one room. Otherwise, he would have questioned how the D.A. could have used it.
I think that Marietta would have told him where they "hid". And she may have also told him, how Harry got the room where they "hid". But she may not have known herself that one could get any room one liked, because she never saw any other room.

For her, it was a room where they hid and practised magic.
I disagree. Umbridge tells us exactly what Marietta said:
"Miss Edgecombe here came to my office shortly after dinner this evening and told me she had something she wanted to tell me. She said that if I proceeded to a secret room on the seventh floor, sometimes known as the Room of Requirement, I would find out something to my advantage. I questioned her a little further and she admitted that there was to be some kind of meeting there."
From this, it appears as if Marietta told Umbridge a great deal more than the room simply being a place where the D.A. "hid." Also, since Umbridge can identify the room as the Room of Requirement, it seems as though Marietta told her of some of the magic of the room.

Thus, after Umbridge knew of the Room of Requirement, I am certain she would have told the Inquisitorial Squad (how else would Pansy Parkinson get in the room to get the list of members?). Malfoy remembered this room and used it to his benefit next year.
So I think that's what she would have told Malfoy, who may have gone to the room and walked 3 times wanting to see the place where one can hide. And I think the ROR got him the hiding place and not anything else.
I think that the Room of Requirement turned into the Room of Hidden Things for Draco because he asked the room for the Vanishing Cabinet. He knew of the cabinet, but not where it had disappeared to. Therefore, I believe he asked the Room to produce it, so he did use the Room of Requirement to fulfill his needs.
I think he was just pacing through Hogwarts trying to figure out what to do and he came upon the room just like Dumbledore did.
This does not add up for me. Draco knew of the Room of Requirement, so he would not have simply "come upon" it without knowing what it was.

I've yet to see proof that Draco knew exactly what the Room where the DA were meeting was. And I didn't say that he didn't know what it was but he may not have thought of using it for hiding the Vanishing Cabinet until he opened the door and came into the Room of Hidden Things.

I've yet to see proof that Draco knew exactly what the Room where the DA were meeting was. And I didn't say that he didn't know what it was but he may not have thought of using it for hiding the Vanishing Cabinet until he opened the door and came into the Room of Hidden Things.But why did he go in there if he wasn't planning to use it for repairing the Vanishing Cabinet? He must have known how what the DA was using the room for, then seen that the door wasn't there later. There's no other way that Draco can figure out how to get into the Room of Hidden Things. Maybe Marietta told them what was inside the room, and how to get inside. We just don't know. :shrug:

I agree; he said he knew about the room of hidden things. And the thing is, he would have had to access it the same way you get in everyroom in the ROR. Harry found Draco's room - so I don't see why Draco couldn't find Harry's. Draco was a pretty smart kid so I don't think he'd have too much trouble figuring it out.

Judging by the amount of garbage that was hidden by in the Room of Hidden Things, people just happened to go in there wanting to hide something all the time.

Judging by the amount of garbage that was hidden by in the Room of Hidden Things, people just happened to go in there wanting to hide something all the time.

I think more people knew about it then we thought.

Well, Trelawney knew about it all right because she used to stash her sherry bottles in there! Wonder how she found it? I can see that the room opens up for you if you happen to be wandering past it wanting something but I don't think you need to walk past it 3 times every time - Fred & George wouldn't have had time to do that when they were being chased by Filch and it became a broom cupboard for them.

What I can't remember about Draco is whether he had the vanishing cabinet and the room gave him a place to fix it, or whether he found it in the RoR. It makes a difference to what he was thinking when the room opened for him. I thought it had been put in there after Montague had been trapped in it - but how did Draco know where the cabinet had gone?

I think more people knew about it then we thought.
I am not so sure. Certainly many Hogwarts students knew about that room (but not necessarily current students, considering Hogwarts is over one thousand years old. The Fanged Frisbees that still had some life left could have been put there by house-elves or Filch - not necessarily by current students), but they may not have understood its true power. Just like Fred and George said in OotP about it simply being a broom cupboard for them, I believe very few of those students would have actually known that the room adjusts to suit the individual's needs. Draco, however, understood that the Room of Requirement was not just the Room of Hidden Things. He knew the D.A. had used that room the prior year, so he probably surmised that the room could change for the seeker's needs.
What I can't remember about Draco is whether he had the vanishing cabinet and the room gave him a place to fix it, or whether he found it in the RoR. It makes a difference to what he was thinking when the room opened for him. I thought it had been put in there after Montague had been trapped in it - but how did Draco know where the cabinet had gone?
This is an interesting question. I think it is certainly possible that Draco knew the Vanishing Cabinet was broken, could not find it in the castle after Montague reappeared, and guessed that it may be in the Room of Requirement. He may have researched the room a bit more thoroughly beforehand, though, perhaps asking a house-elf where all of the broken furniture, damaged items, etc. went. I believe, though, that he simply formulated a hypothesis and checked it by going up to the Room of Requirement and asking it, as Harry did, to form the room where "all the things are hidden."
I do not think, though, that Draco could have gone to the blank stretch of wall and asked the room to create the place where the Vanishing Cabinet was hidden. Since Harry could not get the room to open when asking it to show him the place where Draco was, I do not think it would have opened for Draco making a similar request.

Right and also there is the possibility that Draco simply knew about the room from his father - who'd had the knowledge passed on to him from someone else. There were things in the ROR from ancient times, so lots of people apparently knew about it. Also even if you went in the room of hidden things, you still had to use the special entry process, so Draco couldn't just walk in - he had to know how to operate the room.

I think Draco was the one who hid the Vanshing Cabinet as soon as he realised it's importance as to make sure nobody else could get to it so all he needed was a place to hide it.

i never thought of that thats probably right i mean harry saw it after draco had been working on it for a while... but how would he get it into the school if the security was sooo tight

i never thought of that thats probably right i mean harry saw it after draco had been working on it for a while... but how would he get it into the school if the security was sooo tight

That cabinet was already at Hogwarts I believe. It was the other one that was outside of the school. Did Draco even hide it? Wasn't it already in that room?

i dont think it could be because fred and george shoved that slytherin in it and i think that was somewhere else

i dont think it could be because fred and george shoved that slytherin in it and i think that was somewhere else

Good point. But I don't think it would be that big of a deal for Draco to move it. He could do it at night after hours. He'd just have to have a distraction for Filch - and I am sure Crabbe and Goyle would have taken care of that if asked.

I thought it was put in the RoR after Fred & George shoved Montague in it. It wasn't there before was it? I thought it got damaged when Peeves dropped it in one of the earlier books, which is why it didn't work properly for Montague who kept whizzing between Hogwarts and B & ** until he disapparated out of it. Then it seems to have been put in the RoR, probably by a house elf, and that's where Draco found it. But Draco seemed to be pretty sure where it was, which means he either was around when it was put there, or someone told him. But I thought he said the room had opened for him when he needed somewhere to work on the cabinet, which is odd since it would have had to open for him to find the cabinet in the first place.

Welcome to the post-DH discussion of Draco Malfoy. Previous discussion without spoilers can be found here: Draco Malfoy: Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=96594)




1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his fathers and Voldemorts) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a that dont impress me much reaction to his attempts.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?


1. Jo did plan every thing from the begining, but I dont think that being pampered had any thing to do with becoming a death eater lately, for he suffered as a death eater Imo.
2. All parents want thier children be better than they were, but I dont think Lucius had what he wanted exactly.
3. Well, I think he didnt know what he accepted so I say that in the begining he was proud and happy with the mission, while his mother was afraid, but when he experienced the difficulties he understood very well what was happening, so fear took the place of bravery and confidence that came in the begining.
4. I'm sure he was quite shocked from Harry's reactions. Draco wanted to be the one who leads Harry to the magical world after he knew that he was raised by muggles, he wanted glory, while all Harry wanted was a normal life with good friends( Draco wasnt one) and Draco couldnt believe Harry's rejection for all people who knew Draco wanted his company including Goyle, Crabbe and Pansy.
5. I say plain mean, I mean he's son of Narcissa and Lucius.
6. Draco as said before didnt know what it means to serve Voldemort, he served him to survive not because he wanted. I think he didnt regret leaving Dumbledore, I agree he's a bully but his conscious couldnt bear killing someone.
7. Draco wouldnt even mention it, if he fought against them the same night what makes him even remember it in future.
8. I think the Malfoys had to lower their heads for a long time after Dh. I doubt that Draco might work at the Mom he might be a dragon egg dealer or something :lol:. Any ways I read somewhere that Jo said he didnt marry Pansy. She used to love him but he not as I think.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

I think that there was obvious damage to Draco because he was living in a house with a Death Eater as a Father, but I think that Draco was just a pampered bully in Book 1. In Book 2, we saw him become a little more sinister to actually wish Hermione dead. So I guess I can say that JKR planted the seed in the beginning, or at least Book 2 definitely.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.

I somewhat agree, however I think Lucius was a much better father than we all think. Although Draco's parent's were demanding, they did care for him as anyone else would care for a child.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

I think most of his choices are out of fear definitely. Do you honestly think he would try to kill Dumbledore in the HBP if Voldemort hadn't threatened his life and his families.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?

I don't believe that Draco regrets anything. He just stays "loyal" to Voldemort to avoid being killed by him.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.

I don't know.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?

After DH, I think Draco and his parent's tried to start up their lives again and gain back some respect from the wizarding world. Pansy is not his wife because if she was, you would hear her name in the epilogue, which you don't

I somewhat agree, however I think Lucius was a much better father than we all think. Although Draco's parent's were demanding, they did care for him as anyone else would care for a child.


I agree, but I think this made it more, rather than less, likely that Draco would become a Death Eater. It would have been a lot easier to see his father's choices as wrong if his father was not someone he would naturally love and respect.

I agree, but I think this made it more, rather than less, likely that Draco would become a Death Eater. It would have been a lot easier to see his father's choices as wrong if his father was not someone he would naturally love and respect.

I agree; I feel he looked up to his dad and wished to emulate him. But his mum hadn't joined ~ I wonder if he asked her why and what her response would have been. Nonetheless, Draco didn't appear to be made of the same stuff as his father because he couldn't stomach it at all in Dark Lord Ascending. It is odd when you think about it because where would Draco have gotten his nature from in that regard? His mum seemed pretty stoic about it and Lucius took it all in stride.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater? Not really. If Harry had ended up in Slytherin instead of Gryphindor, I could see Malfoy befriending him and showing him the ropes of the place. If Harry hadn't dealt with the fact that the boy was like his cousin, things could have been very different with the meeting. Plus, Lucius used his power and wealth to get what he wanted, that is what Draco grew up with.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son. Well if you want to get somewhere then you need to be excellent in a lot of things. My own dad was hard on me about grades and all that, but in the end he is always there when I needed help to. Lucius might have been hard on Draco in some areas, but his actions showed that he did care and love his son, only wanting and expecting the best.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado? Fear of losing his mother and father in the end, getting revenge for the fact his father was locked up, and proving that he is as good as what he needed to be to both himself and his father.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts. That is what his father did, name meant everything to his father and mother. That is what they probably grew up with as well. I don't think it was anything less then an attempt to make a friend or get to know someone. Plus he had no clue he was talking to Harry when he first saw him.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean? I always saw him as more misunderstood then actually mean. He was only doing what he was raised around and knew best.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH? Even if his father did not care for Dumbledore, as a student there would have been some level of respect for the position that Dumbledore held. I don't think he regretted it as much as people think. By the time DH happened, all of his family was no longer in good standing with Voldemort and he was only thinking of his parents and himself to stay alive.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future. Hopefully not. I hope they just went on their own ways.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue? I always saw him and Pansy being together, she worshipped him and knew who he was. I could see him in the ministry somewhere or playing quiditch (sp).

[B] I always saw him and Pansy being together, she worshipped him and knew who he was. I could see him in the ministry somewhere or playing quiditch (sp).

It is funny, I paid little attention to the romantic angle, but Pansy and Draco did catch my attention when on the train to Hogwarts. I remember laughing and raising my brows at that because it was quite a surprise to me. By her description and the little we saw of her, she seemed like the last girl Draco would wish to be around. :lol:. I think JKR thought so too in the end and that is why he had him marry an unknown girl - the younger sister of someone we did meet in the story, but who I don't recall from Adam. JKR was trying to show that he really had changed his ways to some degree I suppose and Pansy wouldn't have helped in that regard.

The thing about Draco is, I could never dislike this character. I think we were supposed to, but JKR kept him getting the short end of the stick in the long run and due to the type of character he was, it just didn't seem right that he would. When he crushed Harry's nose on the train, I thought, well yes, finally, the big, bad, terrible Draco wins one for his trouble. Then by the end of the book, I realized he wasn't supposed to be big, bad, terrible Draco and I got a better idea of what JKR was doing with his character. So I found him pretty interesting overall and it was quite easy to reconcile with his change of heart in the end because for some reason, I had some sympathy for the guy all along - I am still not exactly sure why. It has something to do with him ending up the loser a lot, but I think she must have made him accessible in some other way I can't define at the moment because normally that alone wouldn't do it.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?
I think she planned for him to be one, yes. She planned quite a lot, but at first, she probably meant for him to just be more of someone who Harry would have as an enemy in the wizarding world, besides Lord Voldemort.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.
I see his mother being the one who pampers him more and his father as the...enforcer. However, the books show that Lucius is kind of like some asian parents I know, he cares for his son and wants him to excel, so he has to be kind of hard on him to motivate him. Both of Draco's parents definitely love him.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?
I think Draco was making his own choices before HBP. I don't think fear was his motivator either, more of wanting to impress people. He was pampered and the center of attention in his family, and he wanted that at school too. He's the kind of guy the wizarding world thought was Harry in OoTP i guess, attention seeking. After HBP, it was definitely fear.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.
That's just the way he tries to make sure he gets a freind i guess...

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?
Before HBP, he was mean, and kind of naive and childish, but afterwards he understood that the whole Voldemort war thing was not just some game.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?
I don't think he regrets his choices actually. I think Draco only served Voldemort afterwards because of fear, not because he was truly loyal. He was at first, but it became fear that Voldemort would hurt him and his family.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.
Well, I don't see him being friends with Harry and Ron, but he might...i don't know, help them out at the ministry or something? kind of like Lucius did with Fudge possibly?

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?
I think that Draco is probably going to the ministry, quidditch, or some kind of business. and Pansy is definitely not the wife, or JKR would have said so, and she said later it was the sister of someone we had already met, something Greengrass I think, i can't remmeber exactly. Anyway, he would probably not marry Pansy, I don't think he ever really liked her, but dated her because she was...well, i don't know, childhood crush i guess? :lol: that or she was kind of "popular"

I don't think fear was his motivator either, more of wanting to impress people.I've always thought that was how Draco began in his decision to become a Death Eater and all the choices before becoming one. However, after Draco had a taste of what it was truly like, I believe his motivation was indeed fear: for himself and his family. Becoming a Death Eater was something he aspired to in order to look good to his friends, please his family (mainly his father), and become powerful. But once Draco discovered that there is a huge difference between what he thought being a Death Eater was like, and what it was really all about, I think he wanted out. And at that point, it was too late, and he had to keep going because if he didn't, many bad things would happen. At that point, I believe he was caught between a rock and a hard place. In a way, I feel sorry for him, but I believe it was initially his choice to get involved.Pansy is definitely not the wife, or JKR would have said so, and she said later it was the sister of someone we had already met, something Greengrass I think, i can't remmeber exactly.That would be Astoria - sister of Daphne Greengrass. :)

I dearly hope he didn't marry Pansy. I don't particularly like Draco, but I wouldn't wish him a lifetime with Pansy. I also don't believe that he's stupid enough to marry such a person. He's definetly not brilliant, but he's not deficient. Or blind.

Until the sixth book or so, I don't think Draco knows anything about people or how to carry on a relationship remotely resembling normalcy ( and I'm not sure that he ever really learns the latter); in fact I think he's quite naive but, like a lot of very naive people (especially snobs), he thinks he knows everything. I think his escapades among the Death Eaters teach him some valuable lessons about the nature of people and the ways of the world, but he still won't come out of two highly traumatic years struggling for survival as a member of a terrorist organization as a stable young adult. It's not what you'd call a normal enviornment. Maybe he heals and adjusts with time- his stiff courtesy in the Epilogue indicates at least a teeny bit of growth- but it's hard to say.

In terms of character, I see Draco as neither especially strong nor especially weak. He is not entirely spineless, but he's unquestionably motivated by self-preservation and self-adavancement above all else (he is a Slytherin, after all). He does care about his family, and does show some last-minute concern for his friends, but most of the time he displays an unappealing combination of bullying, jealousy, arrogance, cattyness, and general brattyness, most of which probably stems from insecurity (where the insecurity stems from I can't say). He picks fights and seems angry much of the time, but he doesn't really like violence- he doesn't really want to kill people or watch them get hurt. In this respect he is unlike Lucius and I am willing to give Draco credit for being a tad decent in this respect. Perhaps this is Narcissa's influence?

I kind of visualize Draco as winding up like a postwar British aristocrat- the world of his upbringing uprooted and shredded, empire gone and priveledge not meaning nearly so much as it did, but remaining stiff and proud and privately convinced of his own superiority. He's probably slightly bitter but has adapted to get along in the new world- particularly as regards making money. I think he'd be wanting plenty of that.

Draco has surprised me in several instances.
He always defended his mother throughout the series, and looked up to his father, who is obviously a role model for him. This speaks for him. Pride is not always bad, he tried to live up to his father's expectations, he loves them and takes up the job of DE certainly in a childish was of proving himself, but also to defend his parents.

However the most surprising for me was the part in Dh when harry Hermione and Ron are prisoners at Malfoy's manor. Draco seems almost scared of looking at Harry, whom he detests and tries to do in several times in the series. He almost tries to save them by not taking any action (contrary to Lucius who seems besides himself at having Harry there). he also calls Hermione mudblood, however, same, doesn't want to look at her to recognize her either.
It is almost as if he doesn't really want them dead. Narcissa looks at her son and seems to understand that.
I found it was a weird moment.
Also, as several others said, Draco wants to save Crabbe and Goyle in the end and seems to care for them enough.

Finally, the nod to Harry in the end. They are not friends, but Draco acknowledges Harry in a nice way, I would say in a dignified way.

After all, there are no witnesses, in the turmoil of the last battle that Narcissa and Lucius left Voldemort's side for good even before he was dead. I think when people began to get judged, Harry stepped in to say that Narcissa saved his life by lying to V and telling he was dead back in the forest. There must have been trials and the Malfoys were cleared by Harry.

Draco has been through rough times. He tried to be his father's son, then tried to avenge his father, then tried to protect them in HBP. He cried with Myrtle.
And then, he fell from his chair when the Hogwarts professor was murdered, then went white as snow when he had to crucio someone for V, then didn't want to get involved in recognizing harry and his friends, and finally tried to save both his friends from fyendfire.
I like that he finds his parents again, all links with them strenghtened, a united family once more.
I like the Draco of the last books. He evolves a lot and it is in hard times that a personality really reveals itself. Draco is not all bad and not at all made to be a Death Eater. Through hardship, he learned to stand his ground and get on polite terms with harry. It is not a samll feast, regarding the education he had and the environment he frew in.

I agree. I also felt that Draco showed growth by the end of DH. I was more interested in his personal growth than his attitude toward Harry though. I thought on a personal level he had managed to move far beyond his background and upbringing. :tu:

Exactly! He went further than his mum and dad in the end, by growing out of his own little circle of pure-bloods, by aknowledging Harry more than his parents ever did.

Well he did give Harry a nod, but he may have still had pure-blood sentiments. Actually, Draco is probably my favorite character in the book after Harry and Remus. He cracked me up constantly and I really liked the way his character was drawn. He was evil as all get out when he wanted to be and then he'd turn around and be cowardly or compassionate - he was like a total mixed bag and one never really knew what to expect. But what I liked most about him was that he was not at all apologetic about his behavior and was not written to garner any sympathy whatsoever. That drew me right in, and I fully appreciated his arrogant, self-righteous attitude - he had so much class built into his character. I remember one scene (can't remember where), in the midst of a hex war, he bothered to wipe off his robes as if the dirt was disturbing him :rotfl:. I just dug this character above all others with the exception of the two I mentioned.

I felt that Draco's character was kind of two-dimensional until HBP, because until that point, all we really see is Draco disliking Harry, bullying others, and going on about how great and important his father is. But in HBP, I liked Draco's character a lot more because we get to see another side of him - one that shows how his poor choices combined with circumstances that were beyond his control caused him to be a bit more sympathetic (at least for me) and complex. I liked Draco even more in DH, because I think we get to see even further into his character. I'm glad that Harry saved him in the end, because I don't believe that Draco was inherently evil, and I do think he was worth being given another chance.I remember one scene (can't remember where), in the midst of a hex war, he bothered to wipe off his robes as if the dirt was disturbing himWow, I don't remember that at all! If you happen to find that scene, tell me which one it is, because I'm curious now. :)

I have to admit that Draco is the primary reason I'm excited to see HBP next year. I think JKR does an amazing job at fashioning this kind of character. Snape, Voldemort, and Dumbledore all have similar characteristics I think--early very flat, building in complexity and motive, hints of evil and hints of understanding.

Draco was very flat in the early books, but blew up like a balloon in HBP :lol: Part of it was Harry I think, since it's his POV and he was such a kid. Draco provided the enemy drama in day to day life. He was a little funny, a little irritating, a little cruel, but he didn't have much more real substance than Crabbe or Goyle.

As much as JKR seems to dislike her "evil" characters--she always seems mystified that people like them :lol:--I think they illustrate that everybody thinks they're right and few people really set out to be horrible without motivation. He wasn't a helpless victim, but he wasn't a demonic 'bad guy' either. Which is why I think he's leagues ahead of a character like Umbridge or even Bellatrix who seem to have no motivation whatsoever aside from enjoying cackling laughter.

I felt that Draco's character was kind of two-dimensional until HBP, because until that point, all we really see is Draco disliking Harry, bullying others, and going on about how great and important his father is. But in HBP, I liked Draco's character a lot more because we get to see another side of him - one that shows how his poor choices combined with circumstances that were beyond his control caused him to be a bit more sympathetic (at least for me) and complex. Definitely more complex and easier to be empathize with, to a degree.

Harry bent back over his cauldron, smirking. He could tell that Malfoy had been expected to be treated like Harry or Zabini; perhaps even hoped for some preferential treatment of the type he'd learned to expect from Snape. It looked as though Malfoy would have to rely on nothing but talent to win the bottle of Felix Felicis.This always struck me as a funny.

First we have Snape giving absolute no quarter to the 'famous' Harry Potter, and not that Harry expected special favor there's no question he did have a special bond with Dumbledore; and then we have Slughorn seemingly ignoring Draco for his father's Death Eater connections and now Draco finds himself in nearly the same position as Harry'd been in all those years with Snape, minus the insults and bullying behavior that is.

I felt that Draco's character was kind of two-dimensional until HBP...

I think that's being generous: I'd call him one-dimensional - until HBP when we finally get some real development. And there's enough background, with the parents and all, to let us see how Draco could turn out that way. He also has a fair number of witty lines.

I felt that Draco's character was kind of two-dimensional until HBP, because until that point, all we really see is Draco disliking Harry, bullying others, and going on about how great and important his father is. But in HBP, I liked Draco's character a lot more because we get to see another side of him - one that shows how his poor choices combined with circumstances that were beyond his control caused him to be a bit more sympathetic (at least for me) and complex. I liked Draco even more in DH, because I think we get to see even further into his character. I'm glad that Harry saved him in the end, because I don't believe that Draco was inherently evil, and I do think he was worth being given another chance.Wow, I don't remember that at all! If you happen to find that scene, tell me which one it is, because I'm curious now. :)

I have a very, very vivid imagination; so it was very rare for me to see any character as one or two dimensional, even through Harry's eyes. With Draco, I could completely relate to where he was coming from. From the moment he attempted to befriend Harry on the train, I knew we were in for a wild mix of compassion and cruelty from this one - with a swirl of arrogance and cowardliness thrown in for good measure. JKR never let me down in that regard; for me, his evil intent always seemed to be swallowed up a scene later. His unforgiveable nasty and bigoted behavior intentional and real, like crunching Harry's nose or calling Hermione a Mudblood - but no surprise at all to find him running away rather than fighting back as Dudley might or crying in the bathroom before a ghost or lying at Malfoy Manor as to the identity of the trio. In the end, Draco's compassion saved him in every single respect; with his evil, his nastiness, his selfishness and his cruelty. And that could have gone either way. His culminating act for me was not in the Epilogue, but rather during the battle when he managed a smile of gratefulness at the trio for rescuing him from the Death Eater. Draco Malfoy? Smiling with gratefulness? At the trio? :rotfl:. He finally had arrived; and he got a grand punch in the nose for all his travels. Nonetheless, for me it was a defining moment with respect to his overall growth in the series.

The greatest of all was that there was no grand change in Draco; no excuses or justifications for his behavior; no indication that his views were any different, no helpful Harry or other friend to show him the error of his ways - just a pure evolution of character wrought by himself - by Draco alone. I thought it brilliant. What he'd always believed, he continued to believe - and what was never truly in his heart, never gained a foothold. Too, he was a child during most of the books, so that helped a lot as I was aware his potential to choose his ultimate path and gear his life toward it remained open.

And Kala - I have to go with JKR on this one - as much as he is my 3rd favorite character, it was for his story arc. I would never allow my daughter to date him. :cool:

I think the author, planed it out. He is pretty mean to Harry and the trio, and every one eals, but. . .he is a good person, deep down. (Hint) Dumbeldor.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

I think as the years went on, it became more apparent that Draco had the same views as his father, but from the very first time you meet Draco, I dont think its obvious that his father is in leage with 'you know who'. Obviously JKR probably knew what Draco's fate would be. But I dont think it was obvious to the reader.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.

Is this a statement? It must be, because its not a question! To an extent, I agree about what Lucius craves, and I do think that he expect greatness from his only child. But there was love there too. I think deep down, the Malfoys knew that their sons happienss was more imortant than their social status and achievments.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

I think that Draco wanted to be a death eater. I think he thought it showed he was 'powerful' and above the others. However, I do not think he fully understood what it meant. When he reaslied, he did become very scared. And I dont blame him! I dont think he wanted to be a murderer, but I do think he wanted the glory and the respect he felt other death eaters may have.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.

He definatly felt himself above others, and I think he got that from his father. He was a pureblood, he knew harry's history and thought he would be a powerful friend to have. Its only natural to be dissapointed when someone declines your offer of friendship!

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?

I dont think he's misunderstood, nor do I think he's 'plain mean'. Even the biggest of bullys do have a nice side (possibly they would only show it to their parents etc). He isnt evil down to the bone like Voldemort. I think he's probably a bit mislead, and a bit up himself!

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?

He continues to serve Voldemort because he doesnt have a choice. Maybe after the fact he regretted his choices during DH, but during, I think the only thing he cared about was regaining his familys status in society. Which we see he is trying to redeem in the Room of Requirement. As for Dumbledore, I dont think he really wanted to kill anyone, but as not killing him destroyed his familys rep with Voldy, I think that maybe he wished he had done it - for his familys sake.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.

There is always that possiblity, but I assume they dont go in the same circles. But you never know.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?

I doubt he married Pansy. Boys like him dont tend to marry their high school girlfriend. Theres a chance that his parents would have ended up in Azkaban, so he might have been on his own. He seemed to be the same as he always was - feeling above the others - I have no idea what he might have done as a career. What did Lucius do? He could have followed in his footsteps. I think he would have liked to have kept the wealth etc that his family had had. Maybe he lived off their gold? Who knows!

Why is it suggested that Draco would owe Harry a life debt? (#7 in the questions posted here) Apart from the fact that JKR said in interview, there is no magical association with a life debt, even on a personal level, I don't see how he'd owe Harry one. Draco actually saved Harry's life first back at Malfoy Manor for all practical purposes (if he had declared that it was 100% the trio and Harry for certain, they would have called Voldemort immediately.) So Harry was indebted first. His saving Draco's life in the ROR repaid it if you want to look at it that way.

Further, while the Malfoy Manor was not a perfect example of saving Harry's life for extenuating circumstancial reasons - neither was Harry's doing so in the ROR. The reason Draco was laying there was because Goyle was knocked out. Draco was fine and could have left his friend and run for his life, but he didn't. He wouldn't even let him go when Harry tried to grab him at first (while he was weighted down by Goyle) and couldn't do it. (Although admittedly one poster's idea that Draco was using him as a shield still cracks me up to the point where I'd almost like it to be true, but I don't think it is)

As I see it, there are no debts owed. As for the Hallway 'save' that came later; there is no way to ascertain what the DE would have done in the end. He may have attacked Draco, but he may have allowed himself to be talked out of it due to Draco being Lucius' son. So that one is not definitive, although Harry did save Draco from having to try to convince the dude not to kill him. Of course that could be repaid by Draco giving Crabbe and Goyle the same command in the ROR.

I think the author, planed it out. He is pretty mean to Harry and the trio, and every one eals, but. . .he is a good person, deep down. (Hint) Dombaldor.

I don't Draco froze up on killing Dumbledore because he was a good person and having a sudden crisis of conscience. It had nothing to do with Dumbledore, I think it was more his own inner doubt that he could actually do the deed and not get killed in the process. He knew, even injured Dumbledore would be a powerful advisary. Just my opinion though :)

I don't Draco froze up on killing Dumbledore because he was a good person and having a sudden crisis of conscience. It had nothing to do with Dumbledore, I think it was more his own inner doubt that he could actually do the deed and not get killed in the process. He knew, even injured Dumbledore would be a powerful advisary. Just my opinion though :)

I respect your view, but that is not what Dumbledore said to Snape in his office - he said his soul was not yet damaged and if he had the intent and willingness to kill and only fear that he might be killed was stopping him, that would not be pure of soul, imo. And it is not what Draco said on the tower. Draco asserted that he had all the power and Dumbledore told him that he actually did. Then Draco admitted he feared for the lives of his family and himself and that was what was mainly driving him. After that, he stood there with his wand hand shaking as he pointed it at Dumbledore. I don't think I would describe that as 'doubt', but rather an unwillingness to kill anyone - even when he had 4 DEs backing him up and Dumbledore was wandless he couldn't do it. He couldn't even watch Voldy kill Charity without over reacting and falling on the floor - and that was hands off. So I don't think he believed he might be killed if he attacked, I rather think he simply couldn't do it because he wasn't a killer.

I think that Draco not killing Dumbledore is proof that he is a good person. In my opinion, it was not fear that stopped him, but the fact that deep down, he really dose care for people. Even thogh he never liked Dumbledore at all, I think that he is above killing any body.

More than care for people, he did not have what it took to kill and nor did he have what it took to defy earlier on, when he was given what was an impossible task. I think Draco grew up at that time, realising for the first time what his father and aunt were doing and how he hated and feared it.

More than care for people, he did not have what it took to kill and nor did he have what it took to defy earlier on, when he was given what was an impossible task. I think Draco grew up at that time, realising for the first time what his father and aunt were doing and how he hated and feared it.


I agree compleatly. He was above that. He grew up to think for himself, and that who his dad was he did not want to be. In the first few books almost everything he said was some thing his dad toled him. But when he was old enough to make his own descisions, he made the right ones.

In the first few books almost everything he said was some thing his dad toled him. But when he was old enough to make his own descisions, he made the right ones.

Most kids are like that, and if parents are loving, kind and nice, a child will have no reason to rebel in any manner. Draco was like that. His parents were very loving and I suppose he had no reason to think they were saying something wrong. On the contrary, it was the world that was mistaken, according to him IMO. Naturally. :)

I agree compleatly. He was above that. He grew up to think for himself, and that who his dad was he did not want to be. In the first few books almost everything he said was some thing his dad toled him. But when he was old enough to make his own descisions, he made the right ones.
I'm not entirely convinced that it was a real conscious decision, though. He didn't ever actually want to kill Dumbledore but at the same time he didn't want to defy Voldemort. But when it came down to it I think all of his actions were out of fear (he's proven himself to be pretty cowardly throughout the series) so in my opinion he was still too young and confused to consciously make the right decisions.

And yet he did not kill Dumbledore. He just could not do it when the time came and even when he was surrounded by DEs and knew his parents would be punished for his inaction IMO.

I have to agree with T.G.W.(If thats waht you like to be called). Draco could not have killed anybody, even if he knew he was going to be punished.

In my opinion, the reason he did not kill Dumbledore was because of his concious.

I think that Draco not killing Dumbledore is proof that he is a good person. In my opinion, it was not fear that stopped him, but the fact that deep down, he really dose care for people. Even thogh he never liked Dumbledore at all, I think that he is above killing any body.

I completely agree with you. IMO, Draco was a good person but he was affected by people who surrounded him (which are his Dad, Voldemort, Bellatrix and probably Snape), but when it came to the action of killing someone, he realised that he wouldnt do that.

If you sit back and analyze things, there are quite a good deal of similarities between Draco and his mother's cousin Regulus Black, in that both realized that they'd gotten in way over their heads and that their childish expectations of the way the world worked were wrong, and consciously rejected their current allegiances. Regulus realized that things weren't as he'd expected them to be when Voldemort demonstrated no regard whatsoever for Kreacher, and Draco realized the same thing at some point during the 1996/1997 Hogwarts school year. However, while Regulus mustered up the courage to defy his master's orders regardless of what might happen to himself, Draco couldn't do likewise until actually confronted with the task he'd been appointed and presented with the harsh truth by the very person whom he'd been ordered to dispatch: Dumbledore. Although we don't see a whole lot of Draco during DH (given that most of the action in the book takes place away from the school, which is where Draco was), we do get a couple of glimpses of the way in which Dumbledore's words had affected him. The first comes in Malfoy Manor, where he demonstrates a reluctance to identify the trio conclusively; the second occurs in the RoR, where he seems to have regained his old swagger, although that only lasts until circumstances start spiraling out of his control, at which point the 'new' Draco again makes an appearance. The Draco whom Harry had known from the moment he first stepped back into the Wizarding world would not have stopped Goyle from trying to kill him (Harry), regardless of the consequences or what he'd been told, so it is extremely significant that, at the moment Goyle demonstrates a willingness to break away from Draco's influence, that he (Draco) demonstrates once again that he's not the person he'd once been.

I thought so too - but JKR gave me a wake up call in DH on that. My interpretation of Draco's response to Crabbe's death (who was no longer behaving like a best buddy at the time) made me believe that they had experienced a true friendship. I had originally cast him and Goyle as a couple of bungling idiots who were largely controlled by Draco and meant next to nothing to him except muscle men. But now I feel I was wrong.


*exported from the Snape character analysis thread*

It really might seem that they are friends, but the interaction between them in the Room doesn't really show that to me:

"Must mean"? Crabbe turned on Malfoy with undisguised ferocity. 'Who cares about what you think? I take your orders no more Draco. You an' your dad are finished.'

(DH. The Battle of Hogwarts, pg. 506. hardcover, bloomsbury)

That doesn't speak of "true friendship" to me, not of Crabbe's part anyway, and I think a true friendship means that it's mutual...

*exported from the Snape character analysis thread*

It really might seem that they are friends, but the interaction between them in the Room doesn't really show that to me:

"Must mean"? Crabbe turned on Malfoy with undisguised ferocity. 'Who cares about what you think? I take your orders no more Draco. You an' your dad are finished.'

(DH. The Battle of Hogwarts, pg. 506. hardcover, bloomsbury)

That doesn't speak of "true friendship" to me, not of Crabbe's part anyway, and I think a true friendship means that it's mutual...

It could also mean Draco cared more for his friend than he ever showed. Perhaps his parents tought him not to show emotions/friendship to anyone. It could be they would consider that to be a weakness. Would explain his emotional outburst during that scene.

*exported from the Snape character analysis thread*

It really might seem that they are friends, but the interaction between them in the Room doesn't really show that to me:

"Must mean"? Crabbe turned on Malfoy with undisguised ferocity. 'Who cares about what you think? I take your orders no more Draco. You an' your dad are finished.'

(DH. The Battle of Hogwarts, pg. 506. hardcover, bloomsbury)

That doesn't speak of "true friendship" to me, not of Crabbe's part anyway, and I think a true friendship means that it's mutual...

I agree - I think that most DEs (budding or otherwise at this point) were quite willing to climb over other DEs (friend or not) to rise within the ranks of Voldemort's army.

However, I was referring to Draco's response outside of the ROR. Although he fully understood that their friendship was likely decimated, the fact that they had ever had one is brought to light when Draco asks about whether Crabbe made it out of the fire and his reaction upon discovering he had not. He had this reaction despite the fact that their friendship was on the brink at that point - despite all Crabbe had just said to him.

Draco had thought just like Crabbe at one time and he understood exactly where his old friend was coming from. So just because Draco had changed his mind, did not mean he immediately consigned any friendship he'd had to waste - and that is my point. I think Draco had considered Crabbe a friend, a real friend at one time. It could be that Draco was just thinking in terms of any human being dying - but I'm not sure that idea has Draco written all over it....

I agree - I think that most DEs (budding or otherwise at this point) were quite willing to climb over other DEs (friend or not) to rise within the ranks of Voldemort's army.

However, I was referring to Draco's response outside of the ROR. Although he fully understood that their friendship was likely decimated, the fact that they had ever had one is brought to light when Draco asks about whether Crabbe made it out of the fire and his reaction upon discovering he had not. He had this reaction despite the fact that their friendship was on the brink at that point - despite all Crabbe had just said to him.

Draco had thought just like Crabbe at one time and he understood exactly where his old friend was coming from. So just because Draco had changed his mind, did not mean he immediately consigned any friendship he'd had to waste - and that is my point. I think Draco had considered Crabbe a friend, a real friend at one time.


I think that Crabbe and Goyle only followed Malfoy around for power. They were the "Dream Team" of Hogwarts. When Malfoys dad lost power as a Death Eater, and was shamed by Voldy, Crabbe and Goyle did not follow him much because Draco no longer had much influence.

I agree - I think that most DEs (budding or otherwise at this point) were quite willing to climb over other DEs (friend or not) to rise within the ranks of Voldemort's army.

However, I was referring to Draco's response outside of the ROR. Although he fully understood that their friendship was likely decimated, the fact that they had ever had one is brought to light when Draco asks about whether Crabbe made it out of the fire and his reaction upon discovering he had not. He had this reaction despite the fact that their friendship was on the brink at that point - despite all Crabbe had just said to him.

Draco had thought just like Crabbe at one time and he understood exactly where his old friend was coming from. So just because Draco had changed his mind, did not mean he immediately consigned any friendship he'd had to waste - and that is my point. I think Draco had considered Crabbe a friend, a real friend at one time. It could be that Draco was just thinking in terms of any human being dying - but I'm not sure that idea has Draco written all over it....

Well, I agree that Draco has changed. For one, I believe that - had it not been for the DE's bursting through the door at the top of the highest tower he'd have gone along with DUmbledore to 'go over to the right side'. Harry was right, he wouldn't have killed Dumbledore. I only just criticise the true friendship expression, because IMO that implies that it is mutual, that it is based on honesty, and I don't think they had that.

You asked in another post wether none of the Slytherins can have true friendhsip IMO. No, I don't actually think that, but since it is a Slytherin quality that they put their own aims before everything other, and that they are loyal to themselves first and foremost I do believe that it wouldn't be quite the ideal stock of people to coax true friendships.

Well, I agree that Draco has changed. For one, I believe that - had it not been for the DE's bursting through the door at the top of the highest tower he'd have gone along with DUmbledore to 'go over to the right side'. Harry was right, he wouldn't have killed Dumbledore. I only just criticise the true friendship expression, because IMO that implies that it is mutual, that it is based on honesty, and I don't think they had that.

You asked in another post wether none of the Slytherins can have true friendhsip IMO. No, I don't actually think that, but since it is a Slytherin quality that they put their own aims before everything other, and that they are loyal to themselves first and foremost I do believe that it wouldn't be quite the ideal stock of people to coax true friendships.

I highly doubt that. how would Dumbledore manage that with in the time? Even if he had persuaded Draco, he was going to die moments later for what he planned with Snape. Also, the Order was fighting and VERY busy. They could not get through the barrier. I believe Dumbledore was just wasting time for Snape to get to him.

I think that Crabbe and Goyle only followed Malfoy around for power. They were the "Dream Team" of Hogwarts. When Malfoys dad lost power as a Death Eater, and was shamed by Voldy, Crabbe and Goyle did not follow him much because Draco no longer had much influence.

Why, then, did they follow Draco to the Room of Requirement? While it was no longer likely that they could ride to glory on the shirttails of young Malfoy, it is possible that they were hoping that Draco would "redeem himself" as a Death Eater by catching Potter.

But they were not his friends anymore. In fact, I'm not sure that the feelings Crabbe & Goyle had for Draco could ever have been truly called friendship. Hanging out with someone because they're rich and influential isn't friendship. Although it's possible that Draco felt fond of Crabbe and Goyle, as an arrogant celebrity might fool himself into believing that his hangers-on like him for his radiant personality, not for the sparkle of reflected fame.

Why, then, did they follow Draco to the Room of Requirement? While it was no longer likely that they could ride to glory on the shirttails of young Malfoy, it is possible that they were hoping that Draco would "redeem himself" as a Death Eater by catching Potter.

But they were not his friends anymore. In fact, I'm not sure that the feelings Crabbe & Goyle had for Draco could ever have been truly called friendship. Hanging out with someone because they're rich and influential isn't friendship. Although it's possible that Draco felt fond of Crabbe and Goyle, as an arrogant celebrity might fool himself into believing that his hangers-on like him for his radiant personality, not for the sparkle of reflected fame.
They followed him for the same reason he was there. To bring Harry to Voldy, they werent neccessarily there to help each other out with it. Each one wanted glory.

Well, I agree that Draco has changed. For one, I believe that - had it not been for the DE's bursting through the door at the top of the highest tower he'd have gone along with DUmbledore to 'go over to the right side'. Harry was right, he wouldn't have killed Dumbledore. I only just criticise the true friendship expression, because IMO that implies that it is mutual, that it is based on honesty, and I don't think they had that.

You asked in another post wether none of the Slytherins can have true friendhsip IMO. No, I don't actually think that, but since it is a Slytherin quality that they put their own aims before everything other, and that they are loyal to themselves first and foremost I do believe that it wouldn't be quite the ideal stock of people to coax true friendships.

Well here I think we are just getting into the definition of friendship. I think that these Slytherins who placed themselve first had friendship in terms of what they considered "friendship" - which granted differs from how I view it and how others in canon viewed it and you as well I think - but does that mean that to them it wasn't an honest to goodness friendship? I would disagree - I think it was an honest to goodness friendship for them and included not wanting to see the other die or come to devastating harm.

Draco had no wand. Crabbe or Goyle could have just cursed him and been done with his nonsense (in their view) in the ROR. But they didn't. They put him down and belittled him, etc., but they didn't turn on him directly as if they were now complete enemies.

Well here I think we are just getting into the definition of friendship. I think that these Slytherins who placed themselve first had friendship in terms of what they considered "friendship" - which granted differs from how I view it and how others in canon viewed it and you as well I think - but does that mean that to them it wasn't an honest to goodness friendship? I would disagree - I think it was an honest to goodness friendship for them and included not wanting to see the other die or come to devastating harm.

Draco had no wand. Crabbe or Goyle could have just cursed him and been done with his nonsense (in their view) in the ROR. But they didn't. They put him down and belittled him, etc., but they didn't turn on him directly as if they were now complete enemies.

Draco did have a wand, his mother lent hers to him. :p

But I agree that it was a friendship to the extent they considered friendship, I just don't think it would equal Harry's trio's. Would one risk their lives for the other, would they risk their families for the other? I just really don't think they would.

But I see your point, yes, if we state that a friendship for one is what that person feels to be it, then yes, you're right.

Draco did have a wand, his mother lent hers to him. :p

But I agree that it was a friendship to the extent they considered friendship, I just don't think it would equal Harry's trio's. Would one risk their lives for the other, would they risk their families for the other? I just really don't think they would.

But I see your point, yes, if we state that a friendship for one is what that person feels to be it, then yes, you're right.

Agreed, Draco had a wand at first, but he got disarmed. But yes, the last bit was my point. It is all relative because through Draco's eyes, Harry and Ron's friendship might not be a 'true friendship' to his mind. For example, if he feels that a true friend would not expect or want you to place your life before theirs and so you don't - and that marks the quality of friendship as he sees it, which is in line with putting himself first (rather than the other way around) - which he fully expects his friends to do also.

I agree with Wick (:scared: :lol:), that there are different definitions of friendship, according to each individual's personality, what they most care about, life experiences, growing up believing and valuing, and so on.

Also even if Crabbe or Goyle no longer considered Draco a friend (or never did) that doesn't suddenly make Draco's feelings irrelevant or unimportant. He may have geniunely believed they had a good friendship.



Would one risk their lives for the other, would they risk their families for the other? I just really don't think they would.




Yes, the trio risked their own lives for each other. But, Hermione and Ron don't literally risk their families lives as such. Ron's family spoke and chose for themselves to risk their lives for the war and Harry, Ron didn't make the choice on their behalf without their consent. Hermione send her parents away to Australia, so they were (she hoped) far from danger and safe, before joining Harry on his quest.

You asked in another post wether none of the Slytherins can have true friendhsip IMO. No, I don't actually think that, but since it is a Slytherin quality that they put their own aims before everything other, and that they are loyal to themselves first and foremost I do believe that it wouldn't be quite the ideal stock of people to coax true friendships.

I would like to point out that Draco Malfoy risked his own life for Gregory Goyle. When Goyle (who is twice Draco's size and had been Stunned unconscious) was helpless and threatened by Fiendfyre, Draco instead of fleeing the danger himself, dragged his friend along (of necessity, much more slowly). Nor, later, when he had dragged himself and Goyle onto a pile of stuff in a sea of encroaching flames, would he accept Harry's offered help until it was clear that Goyle, too, would be rescued.

*exported from the Snape character analysis thread*

It really might seem that they are friends, but the interaction between them in the Room doesn't really show that to me:

"Must mean"? Crabbe turned on Malfoy with undisguised ferocity. 'Who cares about what you think? I take your orders no more Draco. You an' your dad are finished.'

(DH. The Battle of Hogwarts, pg. 506. hardcover, bloomsbury)

That doesn't speak of "true friendship" to me, not of Crabbe's part anyway, and I think a true friendship means that it's mutual...

Shall I cite a few lines from Ronald Weasley before he stormed out of the tent in DH? ;) Or was that also not a true friendship?

Though, my own view is that Goyle and Draco were always better friends than Crabbe and Draco. Draco seems to act more warmly towards him than towards "Crabbe" in the CoS scene in which Harry and Ron impersonate them. As for Goyle, in the RoR scene he was probably torn in several directions by conflicting loyalties - to Draco, to Crabbe (they appear to have been inseparable!), and to Voldemort and his own father (a Death Eater). I think it is entirely plausible to suppose Goyle returned Draco's friendship sincerely even in light of that scene.

I would like to point out that Draco Malfoy risked his own life for Gregory Goyle. When Goyle (who is twice Draco's size and had been Stunned unconscious) was helpless and threatened by Fiendfyre, Draco instead of fleeing the danger himself, dragged his friend along (of necessity, much more slowly). Nor, later, when he had dragged himself and Goyle onto a pile of stuff in a sea of encroaching flames, would he accept Harry's offered help until it was clear that Goyle, too, would be rescued.

I agree - although I have to say that the funniest take on canon - in any respect - was the idea that Draco was using Goyle as a shield against the fire, rather than rescuing him. :rotfl: - I love that, it cracks me up so much I wish JKR had actually had Draco say it in the canon. But I agree that was not actually the case to me - I feel he was actually attempting to save his friend and was willing to risk his life doing so. He can be brave in his little moments.

Shall I cite a few lines from Ronald Weasley before he stormed out of the tent in DH? ;) Or was that also not a true friendship?

Though, my own view is that Goyle and Draco were always better friends than Crabbe and Draco. Draco seems to act more warmly towards him than towards "Crabbe" in the CoS scene in which Harry and Ron impersonate them. As for Goyle, in the RoR scene he was probably torn in several directions by conflicting loyalties - to Draco, to Crabbe (they appear to have been inseparable!), and to Voldemort and his own father (a Death Eater). I think it is entirely plausible to suppose Goyle returned Draco's friendship sincerely even in light of that scene.

I agree with this also. Further, as I stated above, friendship means different things to different people. Generally, if two friends don't agree on this, they stop being friends. But I think that Draco, Crabbe and Goyle lived under a differing philosopy of friendship - that was shared between them. So this heated argument and belittling session would not be enough to cause Draco to forget the friendship they had - although it might have changed things in the future (at least in term of Crabbe). Still, Draco I feel was truly upset when he learned his friend had not made it out of the ROR. Otherwise I don't feel he would have bothered to ask after him.

Sorry to interrupt the friendship discussion, but...

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?
I don't think so. She definitely made him out to be a stereotypical Slytherin, but it's hard to plant seeds that a child would become a murderer.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.
I don't see how this is a question, but I'll reply anyway. The atmosphere in his house was such that he got plenty of love (especially from his mother) as a child, and approval and encouragement as a teenager. Naturally, he did all that he could to keep his parents feeling that way towards him; what kid wouldn't? And everyone takes satisfaction from having power over someone, so it's not surprising that want for it is found in someone whose father gives him even more incentive.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?
This is quite a simple question. When he was younger, he was floating on his own little cloud. Being cocky had always worked for him, and he was good at it, so he kept on doing it. Then came Voldemort and smacked the truth of life into his face. That was when the fear started to eat away at him.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.
Not sure what to say to this, except that I agree.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?
Both, I guess. He IS mean, but he's been pushed into that mold.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?
I don't think he regretted failing to kill Dumbledore because he was too confused about it. What had Dumbledore meant by his speech? And what now, now that the seemingly-immortal presence in Hogwarts was gone? In DH, he seemed to be doing what he was doing only to survive, and to let his family survive. With no real wish to kill and threaten, I think he definitely regretted doing so.

I agree with this also. Further, as I stated above, friendship means different things to different people. Generally, if two friends don't agree on this, they stop being friends. But I think that Draco, Crabbe and Goyle lived under a differing philosopy of friendship - that was shared between them. So this heated argument and belittling session would not be enough to cause Draco to forget the friendship they had - although it might have changed things in the future (at least in term of Crabbe). Still, Draco I feel was truly upset when he learned his friend had not made it out of the ROR. Otherwise I don't feel he would have bothered to ask after him.

I agree with the general view that friendships are different for different people. Draco doesn't seem to have had any other friends - Zabini seemed to think of himself as a superior person (or that's the impression I got in HBP) and Nott never seems particularly friendly with Draco either, despite the fact that their fathers knew each other. My feeling is that Draco befriended Crabbe & Goyle because he got to be the leader with them which he wouldn't necessarily have done with the other Slytherins. C & G seemed to be attracted by Draco's influence - Snape's favourite etc. Whether they were friends in a sense we understand it's hard to say but they had been together for at least 7 years and Draco would have felt naked without them. And who else did he have to mix with if they abandoned him?

The fact that Draco rescued Goyle and mourned Crabbe shows that he did feel some responsibility for them - not surprising after 7 years - and shows a loyalty that I admit surprised me. The whole fiendfyre episode changed my opinion of Draco Malfoy and gave me reason to like him.

This was last mentioned a long time ago, but I'm wondering about Draco's Patronus. While I agree that it might have been a peacock before his seventh year at Hogwarts (assuming he even knew the Patronus Charm before then...who would teach him?), I think that after his experiences that year it would change to something else. He's obviously disturbed by all the torture and killing going on at his house, and since the peacock's cry sounds exactly like the cry of a child in pain...probably after a while the peacock would start to become a symbol of the horrible things that took place at Malfoy Manor that year, rather than a symbol of his happy childhood. As for what his Patronus would change into, I have no idea. I would like to think it might become a phoenix, but that's unlikely. Does anybody have any ideas on this subject?

Well Death Eaters don't produce patronuses, so it is doubtful Draco would have one at all - he was a Death Eater in 6th year. If he went on to be an Auror or something he might learn it - but they don't teach it at Hogwarts normally. The DA learned it from Harry, who was especially taught by Lupin.

By the time Draco went on to become an Auror or whatever, he'd likely have his family life to think about as a happy thought. It would likely conform with Asteria's - or whatever his wife's name is.

Well Death Eaters don't produce patronuses, so it is doubtful Draco would have one at all - he was a Death Eater in 6th year.

Well, that's because they didn't need them since the dementors were on their side. Also, it's implied some of them didn't have the happy memories necessary to produce one.

I could see it being a peacock or maybe some other animal he's always like. Perhaps something similar to Asteria's, like wickedwickedboy suggests or a scorpion for Scorpius.

Sorry, I guess I didn't make myself very clear...I agree that Draco wouldn't have one before and during his stint as a Death Eater (the question about who would teach him was meant to be rhetorical). I don't think there's really any question about that. If he had had one, though, I think his character and past were such that it would have been a peacock. The thought about Patronus change just occurred to me because lately I was around a LOT of peacocks...

I find it pretty unlikely that Draco has the happy memories, or possibly magical ability, to produce a Patronus. Especially after the war ended- he had just been forced to watch his friend die a terrible death, and he and his family were left with nothing. Not a whole lot of happiness going around there. If he was able to produce a Patronus, though... maybe some sort of dog, that has a lot of bark but no actual bite. :lol: That would make sense with him, for sure.

I find it pretty unlikely that Draco has the happy memories, or possibly magical ability, to produce a Patronus. Especially after the war ended- he had just been forced to watch his friend die a terrible death, and he and his family were left with nothing.

Well, Harry was able to produce a Patronus despite being a poor, neglected orphan. At this point, he had seen some horrible things, too. And the Malfoys were luckier than the Weasleys, they all survived the battle at Hogwarts, which is something to be happy about, no? Additionally, I wouldn't say that Draco lacked the magical talent for the Patronus charm, either. He was in quite a few advanced classes, was he not?

I find it pretty unlikely that Draco has the happy memories, or possibly magical ability, to produce a Patronus. Especially after the war ended- he had just been forced to watch his friend die a terrible death, and he and his family were left with nothing. Not a whole lot of happiness going around there.

Happy memories don't have to be memories that seem particularly "happy" to an outsider, if you see what i mean. Like, they can be something that are only happy to the individual. In OotP, Harry conjured a Patronus by imagining something bad happening to someone else (Umbridge getting fired), so a happy memory to Draco could easily be something like...Harry getting expelled (pre-HBP), or being with his family (post-DH), IMO.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

Possibly. JK certainly created a character that the readers, along with Harry, would despise, but whether he was going to become a Death Eater, i think we must first consider when Draco realised his father was Death Eater (and that's for another thread). As we presgress through the books, Draco does seem to get more and more arrogant, self-assertive and bullish. He gives Harry and harder and harder time in Hogwarts. From HBP to DH, JK changes our views on Draco (well mine anyway); from Harry's point of view, he is in Slytherin - that already makes him pretty bad - then he became Death Eater - a "point-of-no-return" in Harry's (and many others') eyes. But then, he shows that he is incapable of murder, that he cares for people, and that Voldemort's/Lucius' motives are not his own. Maybe JK is trying a give a message not to pre-judge people?

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

Both. In one way i think that Draco is (quite shrewdly) hiding his fear in the form of bravado, which is a common action for people who have chewed off more than they can handle. On the other hand, we see Draco in HBP wanting full glory for his task (i.e. when he told Snape not to intervene).

I also don't think that he was forced into becoming a Death Eater. I think that he might have jumped at the opportunity when asked, in order to follow in his father's footsteps.

Saying that (and i hope i'm not contradicting myself here) i don't think Draco has made many free choices for himself...he is acting in the way that he thinks is right according to his father (hating Muggle-borns, using influence for own gain, bullying people, and inevitably joining the Death Eaters), and i do sympathise with him in this case. Really, the only choices Draco truly makes was when he decided not to kill Dumbledore and when he was frantically trying to save his own skin, in the Battle of Hogwarts.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.

I believe that Draco acquired his name-dropping tendency from his father, who was an incredibly influential man in the wizarding community. Draco tries to emmulate his father, just like any father-son relationship. His name-dropping has probably received good results with the types of people that Draco usually socialises with, but Harry knew very little about the things Draco was saying so it hardly affected Harry. This could have sparked the emnity between Harry and Draco; the latter knew that he couldn't just use name-dropping to control/mould Harry like he has done to other people, and that probably scared him.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?

Draco did himself no favours in the first five books. He acted just the way he was brought up: arrogant, self-righteous, and a bully to those he considered lesser than him. He thought that he was the best, because he was of purest blood and wealthy. So in that way i do not think he is misunderstood (becuase that was exactly how he acted). But, the turning point for Draco, IMO, comes when "the going gets tough" and we see his true colours. He shows that he does care for people, his family, Crabbe and Goyle, and even Harry to a certain extent at the end (like when he stops Crabbe using AK on Harry).

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?

I think Draco was trapped. His case his not too different from Regulus', in my opinion. Draco realises that he is not up to the standard evilness required to be a Death Eater and his motives change drastically; save his own skin, protect his mother and father. If he turned his back on Voldemort then surely his parents would have been punished in some way. I do not think that he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore because, i believe, it acted as an eye-opener for Draco; he realised what he had got himself into, and started to concentrate on the things that really mattered to him.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.

I think that Harry pities Draco, someone that he has seen blindly follow the paths of those he admires, only to be let down by the truth that he does not actually believe in them himself. Harry has always made decisions for himself, or else done things for the good of the wizarding world. As to the life debt...Draco has (tried) to protect Harry in a few situations too, hasn't he? For example, when the trio get caught at Malfoy Manor, and Draco says that he doesn't recognise them - even though his father and Bellatrix are willing him on.

But i don't think anything will manifest of it - i mean, Voldemort has gone so there's hardly going to be another life or death situation in which Draco has to choose a side.

I really liked it when he gave a "curt nod" to Harry in the epilogue; he values and possibly understands the troubles that Harry went through and perhaps feels bad about giving him such a hard time (although granted he would never admit this to Harry).

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?

It will be interesting whether Draco ever got a position in the Ministry considering his father hoodwinked them monumentally. Maybe Harry gives Draco a helping hand by clearing his name? I think post DH Draco would just want to build a good future for his family, just like his father tried to do for him.

I can see Scorpius being just as spoilt as young Draco was, although i hope this doesn't make him as bullish as Draco was to Harry, or anyone else for that matter. Also, he married Astoria Greengrass didn't he?

I'm done :)

I always took Lucius's comments (CoS) to Draco about being beaten by Hermione in academics, an indication that he was a strong student. If his grades were not close to hers, surely the parental complaint would be his mediocre grades, not his losing out to a Muggleborn girl. :)

Possibly. JK certainly created a character that the readers, along with Harry, would despise, but whether he was going to become a Death Eater, i think we must first consider when Draco realised his father was Death Eater (and that's for another thread). As we presgress through the books, Draco does seem to get more and more arrogant, self-assertive and bullish. He gives Harry and harder and harder time in Hogwarts. From HBP to DH, JK changes our views on Draco (well mine anyway); from Harry's point of view, he is in Slytherin - that already makes him pretty bad - then he became Death Eater - a "point-of-no-return" in Harry's (and many others') eyes. But then, he shows that he is incapable of murder, that he cares for people, and that Voldemort's/Lucius' motives are not his own. Maybe JK is trying a give a message not to pre-judge people?

Myself, I found the lesson, if there was one, to be: don't judge people for a lifetime. Draco was correctly judged when young to be a mean-spirited lad headed on the path to becoming a Death Eater. He did all that and went as far as to attempt murdering Dumbledore - indirectly through necklaces and drink - and while he may not have liked doing it, he did. He then took the dark mark on his arm. I don't think the point is to forget all of that stuff and dwell on his final decisions, because it was his initial decisions that got him into the huge muddle he found himself in. He harmed many people along the way and it could have been far worse (for example his letting the DEs in the school could have resulted in the death of many).

Draco is forever barred from being a "good" character, based on his attempted acts for Voldemort and his blood prejudice, imo. But I do feel I can say that he became a better character by the end to a certain extent. That is something he shares with all his bretheren who joined and later rejected Voldemort, imo, the lot of them do not come out smelling so good in the end, despite showing improvement.

I find it pretty unlikely that Draco has the happy memories, or possibly magical ability, to produce a Patronus. Especially after the war ended- he had just been forced to watch his friend die a terrible death, and he and his family were left with nothing. Not a whole lot of happiness going around there. If he was able to produce a Patronus, though... maybe some sort of dog, that has a lot of bark but no actual bite. That would make sense with him, for sure.

I would say that Draco definitely has the happy memories for a Patronus -- his parent's love is pretty obvious, and I highly doubt that that kind of love would spring up suddenly between the sixth and seventh books (especially since Draco wasn't really acting in a particularly lovable way at this time). His experiences during the war wouldn't negate those happy memories. I agree that they would haunt him for a while and make a Patronus difficult or even impossible temporarily, but I'm sure, especially when he begins to build a new life with Asteria, he will get over them to some degree and the happy thoughts will not be too much of a problem for him. As for magical ability, he seems to have plenty. Lucius's CoS comments, the fact that Draco gets at least an E on his Potions O.W.L., and all the difficult magic he performs in HBP (fixing the cabinet, a Protean Charm for the coins -- that's N.E.W.T. standard, that is), and various other indications seem to show this pretty clearly.

I like the idea about the dog...that does sound something like Draco. But not a little ugly obnoxious dog -- that would be more like little Draco. Older Draco's Patronus wouldn't be a noble kind of animal, but it would have to be an animal you could respect on some level, in my opinion.

Draco is forever barred from being a "good" character, based on his attempted acts for Voldemort and his blood prejudice, imo. But I do feel I can say that he became a better character by the end to a certain extent.

This is, I think, what makes Draco such an interesting and unique character: he is not, and probably never will be a "good" character, but he is a very realistic one who, though he may not ever completely let go of his prejudices, has finally decided that some of his beliefs are simply wrong. This, to me, suggests a great deal of courage on his part, especially since it means disagreeing with his parents (which, for Draco, seems like a very big and scary step). For the most part, the rest of the characters seem to be divided rather sharply into the "good guys" and the "bad guys," but Draco doesn't really fit into either category. Rather, he's a young man trying to save himself and his family and to figure out what he believes in a time of great turmoil. He has his weaknesses, and sometimes (like the first six books or so) he gives into them, but by the end he demonstrates that even less-than-courageous "bad guys" can change and decide to follow a different path. I definitely think that after Voldemort's fall he is able to figure things out and make some more of the right decisions. Maybe he makes wrong ones, too...but I think the "curt nod" in the Epilogue suggests some further changes in his character and beliefs.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?
I don't think so. I think she just planned for Draco to follow in his father's footsteps midway, and then continue the life he wanted to live afterwards.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.
This is not fully a question... but I don't really agree. Lucius just wanted the best of Draco.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?
Yes, he is. While he was young, and just starting to grow up and experience magic, I think it was Lucius who controlled his life from then and below. But when Draco matured and learned how to stand up for himself, he learned how to live alone without his father's protection and help. I think his choice was mostly because of his bravery, in my opinion, since he tried his best to fulfill Voldemort's plan in HBP.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.
Yes, that's true. I agree completely. As much as I adore Draco I believe that he wanted fame, and befriended people by trying to impress them by telling them of his father's powers.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?
He's misunderstood! Draco didn't stay evil forever. In fact, he lowered in wand at the end of the HBP chapter. He didn't kill Dumbledore! And Draco turned pretty good at the end of DH too.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?
I don't think he regrets. I don't think Voldemort punished Draco that bad...

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future?
I don't think he ever paid them back. JKR said that Harry and Draco are not friends, but not enemies either. Since Harry and Ron saved his life, Draco probably stopped hating them.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?
Pansy is not his wife. I believe his wife is Astoria Greengrass. And I have no idea what he might've become. If only JKR made it clear to us...

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

I think she always knew that would happen, considering Draco thinks very highly of not only his family, but his father. It makes sense, he wanted to follow in his father's footsteps; to make his dad proud of him.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.

While it's true that Lucius did expect nothing less than the best from Draco, it's also very clear that both Draco's mother and father loved him immensely. As far as Lucius craving wealth, status, and power these also seem to be true. However, I think the main reason he craves those things is to make life smoother for himself and his family; and he accomplished that. I don't think the Malfoys are as evil as they are portrayed.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

I think, at first, Draco was making his choices because, as I said, he wanted to be like his father. He sees his father as a powerful figure, and holds him in the highest respect(it was also most likely an attempt to save his own skin; I doubt he could have just said, "actually, Voldy, you know, I don't really feel like doing this, if it's all the same to you.") He was very proud to have been appointed the task of killing Dumbledore, even if at first he was too blinded by that to realize that the task was impossible for him. If Voldemort couldn't do it, how could he? Draco most likely realized this, and then the rest of his actions (ie: his decision to follow through with his command) were performed out of fear for himself and his family. He couldn't back out, because like Sirius said, you don't just stop being a Death Eater. You're either in it forever, or you're killed.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.

I agree with this fully.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?

To me, he is misunderstood, and I've always felt this way.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?

I don't think he regrets his choice at all; Dumbledore is dead either way, afterall, and I don't think Voldemort punished him all that much because of it. I'm sure Voldemort would have actually been immensely surprised if Draco had succeeded in the first place. Like I said earlier, I believe the only reason Draco continued to serve Voldemort after HBP was merely out of fear for himself and his family.. in DH it was pretty clear to me that he didn't want to be a part of it anymore.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future?

Probably just by leaving them alone.. not really becoming friends with them after everything that happened, but still not exactly enemies anymore, either. I don't think his personality changed 100%, but I think after all that happened to him and his family he may have become a bit more humble. He's still proud ol' Draco, but atleast he seems to have somewhat of a respect for Harry and Ron.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?

After DH Draco probably just went on to live a perfectly normal life. As a career path, I see him doing some sort of work for the Ministry, though I don't know what. I don't think he hates muggleborns as much, but I'm sure some of his family's old values stuck with him, that is how he was brought up, afterall. For some reason I never really thought him and Pansy would grow up, get married, and all that.. so no, I don't think she ended up being his wife. Perhaps they remained good friends or something, but I think his wife is someone totally irrelevant to the story.

I think his wife is someone totally irrelevant to the story.

I agree, and this is what makes me also agree that Draco probably goes on to lead a normal life (at least a fairly normal one). In fact, I would venture a guess that his wife's lack of involvement with the story is part of what drew Draco to her: she was somebody who had nothing to do with his old life and all the bad memories from his last two years at Hogwarts. She, unlike so many others -- Pansy, for instance -- would not remind him of the things he did and the way he acted back then. With somebody like this -- somebody completely unrelated to that past life -- he could start a new life and choose for himself what to live like, instead of being judged by people who would always be reminding him of his role in the war.


5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?

This question frustrates me, because those really shouldn't be the only two options. Draco is not just a simple mean bully -- there's more to him than that, as evidenced by his actions during the last two books, DH in particular. But I wouldn't say that he's misunderstood, because that implies that he just seems mean and is actually a good, nice person at heart -- and I don't think that's true, either. A person who was really not at all mean at heart would not spend five years bullying other people, not even if they grew up with Lucius Malfoy for a father. To become the kind of bully that Draco was for his first five (or so) years at Hogwarts, you have to have a sadistic, nasty streak that goes beyond upbringing. Draco is neither misunderstood nor "just plain mean." A better description, I think, would be conflicted and complex, or, perhaps more importantly, changing. Draco at the beginning of the books is not at all the same as the Draco at the end, and no single word or phrase can encompass both Dracos.

From the Snape thread
Snape, [...]chose to enable Draco's bullying behavior and overlooked Draco's inherent cowardice.

Draco's inherent cowardice?? What cannon is this based on? :hmm:

"Inherent" doesn't strike me as the right word, and he doesn't behave quite as cowardly when under Snape's watch as when under Voldemort's.

That said, Draco's a pretty mixed bag in DH, saving the trio one minute, and fighting them the next. His behavior in that book definitely reflects his confusion and panic.

I think Draco has his cowardly moments-- quite a few-- but isn't strictly a cowardly character. He's going through an internal struggle in DH, which is brave in itself, IMO, because he's not ignoring his conscience and fooling himself that being DE is 100% OK with him.

He's going through an internal struggle in DH, which is brave in itself, IMO, because he's not ignoring his conscience and fooling himself that being DE is 100% OK with him.

Precisely -- it would be very easy for Draco to go along with LV if he was truly just a coward interested in saving his own skin, but he doesn't. Draco is smart enough, IMO, to realize that going along with Voldemort is his safest option, at least for the time being. Lucius certainly does -- and this is why I think that the words "inherent cowardice" perhaps apply to Lucius much more than to Draco. Draco is certainly confused as to his allegiance throughout DH, and he is not necessarily leaning towards the good side the entire time, but he does not choose the easy, safe option. Instead, he considers the option of turning his back on his parents, his ideals, his safety, and everything he has built his life and reputation on -- to me, this seems like a pretty obvious act of courage, no matter what JKR has said about Draco and "moral cowardice." Despite his obvious confusion and terror throughout the book, Draco's actions in DH are precisely what make me very reluctant to buy into the idea of him as a coward.

And beyond moral issues -- I would point out the RoR scene, in which he makes a definite decision to risk his life trying to save Goyle, who is much larger than him and stunned, and who Draco really has no hope of saving at all. Rather than make a rational decision that, IMO, he could not really be blamed for (at least I would not blame him too much for not saving somebody when there was no way he could have), Draco chooses to risk his life (supposedly the most important thing to him) in a very Harry-esque gesture of heroism. It seems that Draco's courage goes beyond being wishy-washy rather than decisively evil on moral questions. Somehow, I don't feel like an "inherent coward" could ever have the courage to do what Draco does in the RoR.

Thanks BrianSeverus :) I'm not a big reader if JKR's interviews & I hadn't hear any comments about Draco's "moral cowardice" before. I have to say I don't see him as a 'moral coward' more as morally confused.

For most of the series he is very much a creation of his environment imo. However when these morals are finally tested we can finally see why Dumbledore thinks his soul worth saving. Of course it isn’t a neat clean victory in terms of his morals. When he doesn’t have to look at what he is doing too closely, such as the opal necklace & the poisoned mead affairs, he is able to work past his moral problems, but when he is face to face with his actions, looking Dumbledore in the eye as he is abut to kill him, his morals make action impossible for him.

In all honesty I think he ranks close to Severus in the last 2 books for actually dealing with moral challenges. He is torn between loyalty to his parents and protecting them (in some cultures this is highest form of morality I think :hmm:) and the moral imperative not to murder. At this point he seemed to have felt caught between a rock and a hard place – and I can’t blame his for that, it seems like an accurate assessment of the situation to me.

This moral dilemma, seems to continue in DH. We don’t see much of him here but as Iggi points out he vacillates from helping Harry to helping Voldemort’s cause. To me this seems to be about his lack of moral education and not knowing which way to turn on the big issues he seems to me to turn to loyalty on a small scale, loyalty to family and friends, as his only point of moral security and here we see how brave he can be.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?
Yes. I think we sort of saw hints all along that he would go to the "dark side". Examples: his attitude toward the muggle-born attacks in CoS, his reaction to the Quidditch World Cup attack in GoF, the mention that his father wanted him to go to Durmstrang in GoF (there are more but I don't have the books in front of me)


2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.
Yes and no. I believe that there is probably a long line of domineering Malfoy fathers, and Lucius pushes Draco so hard because it is all he knows. However, I do not believe that Lucius cares for his money and standing more than his own son, though it appears this way early on. I believe Lucius has simply become Abraxas, but I beleive the events of HBP and DH really made him rethink his priotities and open up to his son more.


3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?
Every boy at some point wants to grow up to be "just like Dad". I believe that this was Draco's way of thinking and it blinded him to what was really happening. I do not beleive that Draco ever truly wanted to be a Death Eater. Narcissa said someting in HBP about him being punished for Lucius's mistakes, so I think he went along out of fear for himself and for his family. I think there was a bit of bravado there as well because he wanted to get back at Potter for stopping the DoM raid. Perhaps he thought Voldemort could help him there...

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.
I think he only does this because he has a great amount of insecurities. He isn't famous like Potter or funny like Weasley or brilliant like Granger. To make matters worse, his father probably expects him to be the most popular guy at Hogwarts so he wins friends the only way he knows how: by flaunting his money and status.


5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?
There is a very marked duality to this character. I believe that the things he does that seem mean are merely an act to hide his true self...to make him appear tough. I think the best illustration of this in the series is in HBP when Potter is spying on Draco in the bathroom because it shows the real Draco that Moaning Myrlte sees and the tough facade that Potter sees.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?
Yes and no. I do not believe Draco ever wanted to kill Professor Dumbledore, so I do not believe he regrets not becoming a murderer. However, by failing to kill Prof. Dumbledore, he probably feels that he has failed to avenge his father and I believe he regrets that far more than any actual deed.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future?
I've never really given this a lot of thought, as I really don't like Potter & Weasley. If I know Draco as well as I thnik I do, it would be something that no one knew about as I don't believe he would want to let on to anyone that he owes anything to his former worst enemies.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?
I do not believe Draco led a normal life...I believe he acted as if he did because he, like all Malfoys, are good actors. I believe that his past still haunts him ( though he will never let on that it does) and he is trying to hold on to what he lost. Examples: I believe Draco works at the Ministry in the exact position Lucius held before he was incarcerated as a reminder of his father and his former standing.
I believe he married a younger girl like Astoria rather than Pansy because Astoria is a reminder of the innocence he lost when he joined the Death Eaters

When he doesn’t have to look at what he is doing too closely, such as the opal necklace & the poisoned mead affairs, he is able to work past his moral problems, but when he is face to face with his actions, looking Dumbledore in the eye as he is abut to kill him, his morals make action impossible for him.

Here I think I would disagree with you -- I'm not sure that Draco's morals prevent him from killing Dumbledore. (In fact, throughout HBP, I would argue that Draco's struggle is not a moral struggle like in DH, but simply a struggle to carry out his mission against overwhelming odds. Up to the Astronomy Tower, I'm not sure he really has "moral problems," just fear problems.) Just as he seems physically revolted by his encounter with a dead body on the way up to the tower, he is physically unable to cause another death. IMO, it is as simple as Dumbledore says it is: he is just not a killer. He does not have this ability. And that, I think, is what wakes him up to the fact that maybe not everything his parents believe in and stand for is right. Because of his upbringing, he would have no reason to suddenly sprout morals in HBP -- nobody he respected would have given him the idea that killing was wrong, and people like Draco don't believe in something until they see somebody they have respect for believing in it too. However, on the tower, he finally found that he simply did not have the ability to follow in his parents' footsteps and go along with their beliefs, and he saw Dumbledore not as the fool Lucius had always described him as but as a wise, caring person who actually understood him. I think the two combined would be enough to give him the second thoughts about his seventeen years of life that last through the whole of DH.

By the way, I am far from a great reader of JKR's interviews; that's just one that's been repeated here very very often.

I agree - I don't think JKR was trying to pull 'instant moralization' in Draco's case. Although I have to wonder in the case of Kreacher. Still, Draco's morals didn't change, imo, just his understanding related to whether he could actually kill an innocent with his own bare hands. He could not. Many people cannot.

I think his wife is someone totally irrelevant to the story.

While she obviously doesn't have an important role since she stays nameless, I'm not sure if it's possible she was truly neutral.

Asteria Greengrass was a fifth-year when Hogwarts became a year-long battle between those who supported Potter and those who supported Voldemort. If she were in Ravenclaw it might be possible for her to have been neutral but in any of the other three houses? Doubtful. At one point or another she would have likely helped one side or the other, intentionally or not.

But that's another thread for another time.

Also, I don't think saving Goyle shows moral courage on Draco's part. Physical courage, yes but that's something Draco has shown a few times in the past. Loyalty and friendship, of course. But not moral courage.

I do agree that Draco had some near-impossible choices to make and he shows signs of an internal struggle with his wariness about identifying the Trio at Malfoy Manor - but they weren't signs of moral courage, to me. Just signs that he wasn't dead inside.

I also wonder if JKR's comment is simply a statement that she had more in mind for what happened with Draco during his 7th year but didn't get mentioned in the book. As I said above, Hogwarts was where they were fighting a war long before the final battle. There were probably things that happened that Draco didn't agree with but he didn't fight against either.

For instance, I find it interesting that Neville mentions Crabbe and Goyle loved the Dark Arts so much they were helping with detentions. We know from Harry's Voldy-vision that Draco wasn't particularly fond of torturing people and here are his two best friends, torturing other students. I doubt Draco liked that but I also doubt he did anything. That's moral cowardice since if there were any two people he'd have any chance of influencing, it'd be his two best friends. Even if it was just Goyle (since Crabbe seemed the more gung-ho of the two) it could have helped.

That's what makes Draco a fascinatingly normal character. A lot of readers wanted him to do more, a lot of people like to think they'd do more in his shoes but as the Milgram Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) and all its variants show, most people would act like Draco.

That's what makes Draco a fascinatingly normal character. A lot of readers wanted him to do more, a lot of people like to think they'd do more in his shoes but as the Milgram Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) and all its variants show, most people would act like Draco.

Blatantly disregarding the rules of sticking to the topic, I will state that this post easily qualifies as my favorite response to the series.

You called us out on it. Standing ovations from me. :relax:

Fascinating. I'd never heard of the Milgram experiment before, but its results don't surprise me. :agree:

To tie this back to Draco, the test subjects only had the idea of authority spurring them on during the experiment. Draco had not only that, but the threat on his parents life to pressure him into obeying Voldemort, and still, he did not follow blindly, but continued to vacillate.

I agree that Draco's saving Goyle in the RoR was largely physical courage as opposed to moral courage (although I feel that life-saving usually involves at least some moral courage, at least if you've been brought up by Death Eaters), but his reluctance to identify the Trio in Malfoy Manor is a little more difficult to understand. I don't think it's an outstanding act of complete moral courage, but I don't think it's just self-preservation, either. After all, by identifying them, it's likely that he could have really postponed his death, maybe for a long time.

I think by this time Draco had realized that everything the Death Eaters were doing was at the very least disgusting, if not downright wrong, and he wanted nothing to do with it -- that's the main thing I see in him in that scene. And by rejecting his parent's pleas for help, he is truly making a decision that he does not want anything to do with their Death Eating.

Unfortunately, all Draco's instances of moral courage coincide with self-preservation, making them look much less impressive...but personally, I think Draco is doing more in DH than just looking out for himself and his family.

Here I think I would disagree with you -- I'm not sure that Draco's morals prevent him from killing Dumbledore. (In fact, throughout HBP, I would argue that Draco's struggle is not a moral struggle like in DH, but simply a struggle to carry out his mission against overwhelming odds. Up to the Astronomy Tower, I'm not sure he really has "moral problems," just fear problems.)

I didn’t say he was having problems with his morals before the tower, I agree that he didn’t have a moral problem at that point but I think we possibly disagree on the cause for that. :)

Just as he seems physically revolted by his encounter with a dead body on the way up to the tower,

To me this is the moment that Draco is brought face to face with the consequences of his actions. Finally he can see that his actions in bring DE’s into the school have very real and fatal consequences. I know he had an intellectual knowledge of this before but that doesn’t always lead to a person actually realising the reality of that intellectual knowledge.

To me it is this moment of realisation that aids his moral crisis on the tower. He goes into it suddenly realising what the consequences are, what death is.

he is physically unable to cause another death.

What does that actually mean? :hmm:

It seems to me that he is able to case a spell that would result in Dumbledore’s death but there is a battle in his mind – this mental conflict seems to me to be his morals v his self preservation.

IMO, it is as simple as Dumbledore says it is: he is just not a killer. He does not have this ability. And that, I think, is what wakes him up to the fact that maybe not everything his parents believe in and stand for is right.

:tu: agreed

I do agree that Draco had some near-impossible choices to make and he shows signs of an internal struggle with his wariness about identifying the Trio at Malfoy Manor - but they weren't signs of moral courage, to me. Just signs that he wasn't dead inside.

But if one looks at this bearing the Milgram experiment in mind – I think his attempts to avoid identifying the Trio is fairly extraordinary, even when pressure is applied, he fails to give a positive identification. When his parents and Aunt do identify Hermione & Ron – the most he says is “Yeah, it could be.”
Ok he could have done better, but even when everyone else is certain, he still won’t identify them positively. I think the text indicates that in reality he does recognise the Trio – he is avoiding looking directly at Harry as much as Harry is trying not to look at him, and logic does imply that if Bella can recognise Hermione after her minor encounter with her then Draco who has shared classes with her for 6 year surely must.

That's what makes Draco a fascinatingly normal character. A lot of readers wanted him to do more, a lot of people like to think they'd do more in his shoes but as the Milgram Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) and all its variants show, most people would act like Draco.

:tu: I can’t agree more

I agree that Draco's saving Goyle in the RoR was largely physical courage as opposed to moral courage (although I feel that life-saving usually involves at least some moral courage, at least if you've been brought up by Death Eaters),

This is what I mean by his falling back on the few bits of morality he understands at the end of DH, I see trying to save someone else's life as involving at least some moral courage, more so when one is putting your own life at risk. :)

I think by this time Draco had realized that everything the Death Eaters were doing was at the very least disgusting, if not downright wrong, and he wanted nothing to do with it -- that's the main thing I see in him in that scene. And by rejecting his parent's pleas for help, he is truly making a decision that he does not want anything to do with their Death Eating.

Unfortunately, all Draco's instances of moral courage coincide with self-preservation, making them look much less impressive...but personally, I think Draco is doing more in DH than just looking out for himself and his family.

:tu: :agree:

What does that actually mean? :hmm:

It seems to me that he is able to case a spell that would result in Dumbledore’s death but there is a battle in his mind – this mental conflict seems to me to be his morals v his self preservation.

By "physically unable" I meant that Draco's struggle doesn't, to me, seem to be just an internal one of morals vs. self-preservation. I think he sincerely wants to kill Dumbledore -- it's the obvious choice, in his situation. However, the struggle is not against his morals, I think, but his simple inability to kill. I think he's trying, but can't bring himself to actually say the words (and even if he did, I don't think there would be enough magic behind it to kill Dumbledore). The concept of killing is one thing, but making the actual physical motions to kill somebody, face to face, is quite another. He freezes up and can't move, even though, IMO, he wants to do it. At least this is the way I read it.

I think Draco did a lot of growing up in the series (character wise). He went from arrogant bully to insecure teenager and was confused in HBP and DH as to where his true loyalties lie. The "growing up" became clear in The Epilogue when it was shown that he and Harry had abandoned their previous animosity towards each other.

He realized that he wasn't capable of cold-blooded murder. Imo, he didn't want to kill Dumbledore on some level, and it was the prospect of failure (and its consequences) that made Draco so scared/insecure/worried etc.

I think about it like this; if he had wanted to bring about Dumbledore's death one way or another, why not stun him while you're there? It would ease proceedings considerably and perhaps even stop Draco being talked out of it by Dumbledore.

I don't think we can ever characterize Draco as a good person though, his employ as a Death Eater, prejudices, and selfishness all prohibit that, in my opinion. But significantly he does change is motives, for the good of himself and his family, something which shows courage. An act of selflessness (e.g. looking out for his family/Harry and rejecting the potential personal glory of becoming a proper Death Eater), by someone who was for 5+ years a Slytherin though-and-through takes will power (and courage). Maybe in later years, while growing old with Astoria and watching young Scorpius grow up, some of his deep-rooted prejudices fall.

It's interesting also that he does not end up marrying Pansy Parkinson, someone who has always crooned over him, but a Greengrass. Admittely we know little about Astoria's personality but i found it heartening that Draco did not choose the one who was always harsh to Harry (even in DH when she wants to hand him in), emphasizing his new-found loyalty to Harry for saving the Malfoys' lives, perhaps?

By "physically unable" I meant that Draco's struggle doesn't, to me, seem to be just an internal one of morals vs. self-preservation. I think he sincerely wants to kill Dumbledore -- it's the obvious choice, in his situation. However, the struggle is not against his morals, I think, but his simple inability to kill. I think he's trying, but can't bring himself to actually say the words (and even if he did, I don't think there would be enough magic behind it to kill Dumbledore). The concept of killing is one thing, but making the actual physical motions to kill somebody, face to face, is quite another. He freezes up and can't move, even though, IMO, he wants to do it. At least this is the way I read it.

I can see what you mean here, and, in a sense, I agree. But I think there's a pretty big connection with morals and being unable to kill. To really have trouble committing the act of murder, you'd have to be aware of the enormity of the act, and IMO there's little other reason to believe it's a big deal than because you're aware that your victim is human, like yourself. That's why Voldemort has so few qualms: from his POV people are objects, to be used as he likes. Baby Harry, for example, is referred to as "it" in the flashback at GH.

When Draco is faced with the fact that he's about to kill someone, the importance of what he's about to do terrifies him. He knows he "has to" do it, but if he truly wants to, what's making him unable to? The fact that he doesn't want to. He wants to save his parents, yes, and he wants to do this vague action that Voldemort has commanded of him, but when faced with the man he has been told to kill, that very basic human sympathy kicks in, and he can't do it.

I'd also like to add that IMHO most people, even those who commit horrible acts like the DEs, probably think that murder is wrong. Draco, his family, and the other DEs very likely do not look upon murder as a good thing. They simply don't believe they're committing murders, but are instead defending against a threat or cleansing their blood lines. And rationalizations like that are always easier when you're not face-to-face with your victim and conversing with him, as Draco does on the tower.

I think about it like this; if he had wanted to bring about Dumbledore's death one way or another, why not stun him while you're there?

:agree: I agree. Even Dumbledore suggests that Draco's heart might not be entirely in his mission. Dumbledore points to the clumsy, indirect ways Draco has tries to kill him throughout the year, and his argument is pretty convincing. :relax:

It's interesting also that he does not end up marrying Pansy Parkinson, someone who has always crooned over him, but a Greengrass. Admittely we know little about Astoria's personality but i found it heartening that Draco did not choose the one who was always harsh to Harry (even in DH when she wants to hand him in), emphasizing his new-found loyalty to Harry for saving the Malfoys' lives, perhaps?

I don't know about that. :hmm: Draco, despite owing Harry a lot, is a pretty proud person. If he truly loved Pansy, I think he'd marry her no matter what her opinion was about Harry.

Although we don't have much information, I would guess that Draco and Pansy's relationship fell apart due to the Malfoy family's disgrace and their role in the final battle. If Pansy had been raised to be entirely faithful to Voldemort, she may have seen Draco's ambivalence as a betrayal or a weakness. And after his family name lost much of its appeal, Pansy may have believed an alliance with a disgraced family disadvantageous.

I can see what you mean here, and, in a sense, I agree. But I think there's a pretty big connection with morals and being unable to kill. To really have trouble committing the act of murder, you'd have to be aware of the enormity of the act, and IMO there's little other reason to believe it's a big deal than because you're aware that your victim is human, like yourself. That's why Voldemort has so few qualms: from his POV people are objects, to be used as he likes. Baby Harry, for example, is referred to as "it" in the flashback at GH.

When Draco is faced with the fact that he's about to kill someone, the importance of what he's about to do terrifies him. He knows he "has to" do it, but if he truly wants to, what's making him unable to? The fact that he doesn't want to. He wants to save his parents, yes, and he wants to do this vague action that Voldemort has commanded of him, but when faced with the man he has been told to kill, that very basic human sympathy kicks in, and he can't do it.

I'd also like to add that IMHO most people, even those who commit horrible acts like the DEs, probably think that murder is wrong. Draco, his family, and the other DEs very likely do not look upon murder as a good thing. They simply don't believe they're committing murders, but are instead defending against a threat or cleansing their blood lines. And rationalizations like that are always easier when you're not face-to-face with your victim and conversing with him, as Draco does on the tower.

I agree with pretty much everything you're saying here. I do agree that morals and an inability to kill are strongly linked. The basic instincts that prevent Draco from killing are moral ones, I would say. That said, I still don't view Draco's struggle as a moral struggle because I think that would require him acknowledging that his morals are what's getting in the way, and I'm not sure he's at that point.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think that, at this point, Draco is doing much soul-searching or decision making. He isn't, IMO, having second thoughts and deciding that maybe killing is wrong. He's just a scared teenager trying to do things that no adult should do, much less a kid of seventeen. Although I agree that he has morals and that they do play a role in his inability to kill Dumbledore, I don't think he's actively struggling with and acknowledging them -- or that he's even actively denying their existence. This starts after his experiences on the Tower, IMO -- until then, he's just struggling with fear and confusion and a (to him) nameless inability to kill.

I'm sorry all of my posts end up getting so long -- I apologize! Just trying to figure things out and explain all of my confused thoughts, if only for my own benefit...

I agree with pretty much everything you're saying here. I do agree that morals and an inability to kill are strongly linked. The basic instincts that prevent Draco from killing are moral ones, I would say. That said, I still don't view Draco's struggle as a moral struggle because I think that would require him acknowledging that his morals are what's getting in the way, and I'm not sure he's at that point.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think that, at this point, Draco is doing much soul-searching or decision making. He isn't, IMO, having second thoughts and deciding that maybe killing is wrong. He's just a scared teenager trying to do things that no adult should do, much less a kid of seventeen. Although I agree that he has morals and that they do play a role in his inability to kill Dumbledore, I don't think he's actively struggling with and acknowledging them -- or that he's even actively denying their existence. This starts after his experiences on the Tower, IMO -- until then, he's just struggling with fear and confusion and a (to him) nameless inability to kill.

I'm sorry all of my posts end up getting so long -- I apologize! Just trying to figure things out and explain all of my confused thoughts, if only for my own benefit...

If by morals you mean knowing basic right from wrong, I think Draco was the Malfoy with the most moral sense of right - but that isn't saying much since I feel his parents pretty much had little to none. But JKR said she tried to show improvement in Draco and I think she did that. My impression was that he knew what was basically right in a very fundamental sense (kill or don't kill), but he wasn't above defying his morals if necessary. Despite Dumbledore (and I think JKR) attempting to indicate he was not a killer, the fact remains that he distributed both the poisoned necklace or the poisoned wine with the intent for them to kill Dumbledore. That was an attempt, even if it was a poor one.

But I do think that he didn't have it in him to kill another with his own hand - only indirectly. I think the whole idea of murder hit home though, when he was put in the position to kill Dumbledore and didn't. After that, we saw him try to prevent the death of others which would have been carried out indirectly at the Manor and in the ROR. So I would say his moral stance improved to that extent. His nod to Ron and Harry in the Epilogue showed some personal growth as well - at least in terms of not holding grudges against direct enemies. So I think he was able to show at least some moral growth and also personal growth by the end.

If by morals you mean knowing basic right from wrong, I think Draco was the Malfoy with the most moral sense of right - but that isn't saying much since I feel his parents pretty much had little to none. But JKR said she tried to show improvement in Draco and I think she did that. My impression was that he knew what was basically right in a very fundamental sense (kill or don't kill), but he wasn't above defying his morals if necessary.

I do mean morals in the sense of knowing right from wrong, and I do agree that Draco had the most moral sense of right in his family; otherwise his inability to kill, instead of producing a significant change in him, would have simply been a relatively minor barrier to be overcome.

Despite Dumbledore (and I think JKR) attempting to indicate he was not a killer, the fact remains that he distributed both the poisoned necklace or the poisoned wine with the intent for them to kill Dumbledore. That was an attempt, even if it was a poor one.

It was an attempt -- but so half-hearted that I doubt he expected, or therefore intended, for them to kill Dumbledore. I suspect it was more of a perfunctory gesture to ensure that he would not be blamed for "not trying."

One thing I think is important as far as the mead-and-necklace episodes go is the fact that Draco is not a thinker any more than he is a killer. Everything I see in the books indicates that he doesn't really think things through...at all. So in this case, I can see him completely disregarding the possibility of anybody other than Dumbledore getting hurt. The idea had been formed in his mind as one involving Dumbledore, himself, and Madame Rosmerta. The rest of the people involved (Katie, Ron, Slughorn) didn't even come into his thoughts; they were just the blank gap between Rosmerta and Dumbledore. This is different from an evil mastermind regarding his minions and victims as unimportant pawns. Draco doesn't dismiss the victims as expendable or unimportant; he simply doesn't think about them.

I think he sincerely wants to kill Dumbledore

I'm not so sure :shrug:. I still think that he could've stunned Dumbledore if his motive was indeed to kill him eventually. Stunning is way simpler and doesn't really require the mental strength that performing an AK does. To follow on what wickedwickedboy said, i also believe that Draco only had it in him to kill indirectly, which again begs the question - if he had wanted to kill Dumbledore (directly or indirectly) why not stun him (if only to stop himself being talked out of it).

However, the struggle is not against his morals, I think, but his simple inability to kill.

I think Draco shows evidence that he could possess the ability to perform AK. He's pretty clever; he can perform Tarrantallegra and Serpensortia in second year (spells that the DE, LV, and Snape use later in the series), he gets Outstanding in his Potions O.W.L, and he is good enough at Occulemency to prevent Snape entering his mind (and we know Snape is a great Occulmens). Once inducted into the DE circle i feel it is likely that someone must have taught him the Unforgivables (we know he tries to Crucio Harry) and especially the AK, considering his mission. Also, JK says that Draco was capable of "compartmentalizing his life and his emotions", something which is vital in performing a good AK curse.

Just to add something here; morals are almost always different for individuals because they are based on an individual's interpretation of what's good/bad. Draco was indocrinated with his parents' beliefs, this give rise to his morals, something which obviously changed over time as Draco "grew up".

When he finally got his chance to walk the walk, i think that hit him and he realized that his "dream" was different to what he expected.

I'm not so sure :shrug:. I still think that he could've stunned Dumbledore if his motive was indeed to kill him eventually. Stunning is way simpler and doesn't really require the mental strength that performing an AK does. To follow on what wickedwickedboy said, i also believe that Draco only had it in him to kill indirectly, which again begs the question - if he had wanted to kill Dumbledore (directly or indirectly) why not stun him (if only to stop himself being talked out of it).

Well I think the time for stunning had passed. He disarmed Dumbledore which placed him at a disadvantage in Draco's mind (that is what he said) - so he didn't need to stun Dumbledore. I think he did sincerely want to kill him in a surface sense because it would ensure the safety of his parents and himself. But when it came down to it, he couldn't do it directly with his own hand, imo.

When he finally got his chance to walk the walk, i think that hit him and he realized that his "dream" was different to what he expected.

That is the realization I feel he made on the tower. But I am not sure that it is different than what he thought it would be - that was more what happened to Regulus. I think for Draco, "he" was not the person he imagined himself to be - a person who could actually carry out deadly acts and torture, etc. Becuase Draco knew by 6th year what was expected of all DEs, imo.

I think Draco shows evidence that he could possess the ability to perform AK. He's pretty clever; he can perform Tarrantallegra and Serpensortia in second year (spells that the DE, LV, and Snape use later in the series), he gets Outstanding in his Potions O.W.L, and he is good enough at Occulemency to prevent Snape entering his mind (and we know Snape is a great Occulmens). Once inducted into the DE circle i feel it is likely that someone must have taught him the Unforgivables (we know he tries to Crucio Harry) and especially the AK, considering his mission. Also, JK says that Draco was capable of "compartmentalizing his life and his emotions", something which is vital in performing a good AK curse.

I certainly agree that he had the magical ability to do it; he was actually quite a talented wizard from all we can see, and I agree completely with all your points here. But magical ability is not the only thing that plays a role in somebody's ability to kill, and Draco's problem was not magical ineptitude, but basic moral instincts. Not to say that he had decided that perhaps killing was wrong -- it was still too early for him to do that, IMO. He was simply hindered by the consciousness that all humans have of death's finality and murder's evil.

Just to add something here; morals are almost always different for individuals because they are based on an individual's interpretation of what's good/bad. Draco was indocrinated with his parents' beliefs, this give rise to his morals, something which obviously changed over time as Draco "grew up".

I agree with you here to a point. Draco certainly was raised to view killing, not as something good and right necessarily (I doubt even the Malfoys would really want to raise their son like that), but as something that didn't really matter, morality-wise; something excusable. However, even indoctrination with morals like those wouldn't, IMO, give him the ability to overcome the instincts that prevent him from murdering Dumbledore. This is partly true, IMO, because at this point I think he'd realized that death and killing, whatever they were, weren't the same as the ideas he'd grown up with of them. So I don't think that the morals he was brought up with really played much of a role on the tower -- it was later on, IMO, that they came into play.

wickedwickedboy, I agree completely with everything in your post! :tu:

Please bear with me, this is a very lengthy post :(

I'm not so sure the Malfoys are loyal to Voldemort simply because they believe in the cause, like Bellatrix. I think on the whole, Lucius and Narcissa included, they are rather self-serving, and an allegiance with the Dark Lord just happened to be...convenient? (That's not exactly the word I'm looking for, but you get the gist of it). So maybe his heart wasn't really in it? Compare this with Bellatrix, who hero worships Voldemort and truly would do anything for him.

Anywho, I have two theories about what happened up there on the tower. One is that Dumbledore actually "got to him." Dumbledore is a wise man, and he knows that “Killing is not nearly as easy as the innocent believe…” When it comes down to it, although Draco is SUPPOSED to be a loyal follower of Voldemort, and is expected to torture, kill, etc., he is still very innocent on the whole. Up until this point he has not faced the choice to kill someone point-blank. Also, his dialogue with Dumbledore in this whole scene seems more as if he's trying to reassure himself that he's going to do it. ‘They thought I’d die in the attempt, but I’m here … and you’re in my power … I’m the one with the wand … you’re at my mercy …’ Also worth noting is Dumbledore's response to this, which I think is the key to what happened on the tower.‘No, Draco,’ said Dumbledore quietly. ‘It is my mercy, and not yours, that matters now.’
Draco was not too magically-inept to kill Dumbledore; rather, it was his reaction to the incredible mercy and love that he showed that stopped Draco from "pulling the trigger," so to speak. The Malfoy family is not particuarly known for self-sacrificing love, or for mercy, so these two things are foreign to Draco, much like love is foreign to Voldemort. He does not understand it in the least. Instead of allowing anyone to interfere and live on (which undoubtedly would have incurred Voldemort's wrath, and in turn would mean Draco's death), Dumbledore saved Draco by dying. He was allowed to prolong his "innocence" by not having to commit the soul-scarring act of murder, and because Dumbledore was dead, Draco technically succeeded in his mission. I think this is also why we see a more conflicted Draco in DH, he is probably still trying to wrap his around why Dumbledore did what he did for him.

Here goes theory number two, which is also worth a bit of thought, although I think the first theory makes more sense:

Draco spends so much time living up to what is expected of him that he doesn't get much of a chance to develop his own personality. So much of what we see of him in the books (the dislike for Muggleborns, blood traitors, etc.) is what was inculcated in him as a child. When it comes the time to make his own choices, he has something of an identity crisis, I suppose. It is no longer what Lucius says to do, or what Voldemort commands, it is what DRACO decides to do. He can decide to kill Dumbledore or not to. Methinks that instead of experiencing a moral dilemma when the moment came to kill Dumbledore, he experiences something of an identity crisis, because he had to decide who exactly Draco Malfoy was after years of being the Draco Malfoy he was expected to be.

You made a lot of good points Brian and Karlecakes. One thing is that JKR had a rather interesting idea with Draco. She had him send out the mead and the necklace - she then had them both cause harm (to Ron and Katie) - but they missed the intended target - Dumbledore. Then she has Dumbledore advise that he doesn't feel Draco is a killer, that his soul is not yet debauched. And unless I am mistaken, Dumbledore also says that he felt Draco didn't really believe those items he sent out would actually kill Dumbledore. That leads me to believe that Dumbledore felt Draco sent out such novice attempts, that he felt Dumbledore would see through them and survive (assuming he didn't figure anyone else would get hurt). But then Draco could at least report to Voldemort that he'd tried.

If the above is true, then JKR was attempting to completely clear Draco of any murderous attempts, thoughts or acts. On the tower, it was evident that he wasn't going to kill Dumbledore. Later at Malfoy Manor, he hedges in identifying the trio and then attempts to stave off any harm coming to Harry in the Room of Requirement (in my opinion).

Looking at all of the facts, I would say that JKR was saying that Draco wasn't the person he thought he was - he couldn't kill for his beliefs or even his parents' and his own safety. That is really good I think - but Draco still had many faults, he could be cruel and dispassionate, and he had that Slytherin 'any means' thing going on - and of course he did uphold the blood purism belief which to me borders on evil.

So I think JKR did pull Draco back from being a totally dark and evil man - but I think she left him with quite a ways to go by novel's end. Nonetheless, his behavior in the epilogue seemed to indicate that he had improved more yet. He wasn't holding lifetime grudges against his enemies. Plus, merely based on the fact that Ron was married to Hermione, Lucius wouldn't have nodded at Ron under any circumstances, imo. So that made me feel like he was taking a grip on his prejudice beliefs too, at least to a greater extent than his father had. So overall, I think JKR was trying to show improvement - and I do believe she did.

Again, many apologies for the grotesque length of this post...

Draco still had many faults, he could be cruel and dispassionate, and he had that Slytherin 'any means' thing going on - and of course he did uphold the blood purism belief which to me borders on evil.

To begin with, I should state that I agree that Draco does have many faults. He is cruel and dispassionate (though not to everybody, which indicates that cruelty isn't just part of his character), he is proud, and he is cowardly (not evil, but something of a character flaw still) -- just to name a few faults. But as far as the "any means" thing, I think Draco has shown that he won't use any means. Personally, I feel that the whole "any means" bit means simply that Slytherins are determined and willing to go to their limits -- but they do, in fact, have limits and lines that they will not cross. In HBP, Draco is discovering his limits and finding out that they are different from those of his parents -- in other words, the ones he was raised to have.

As to blood purism, I am not going to try to say that Draco isn't prejudiced on this issue. He does, indeed, believe in blood purism (although I can't think, off the top of my head, of any time during DH when he uses the word Mudblood or makes and blood purity remarks...). However, I think he believes in it just because his parents do, rather than because he's studied the issue and decided that pure blood really is important. He's been told all of his life that his blood makes him superior, so he believes that for two reasons. First, he believes it because he trusts his parents and feels that everything they believe must be true. Second, he believes it because it makes him feel good. Though he's a talented person, there's always somebody just a little better than him. Hermione is better in school, Harry is better at Quidditch, etc. Blood purity gives him a way to be better.

Also, on the Tower he makes a remark about Mudbloods and is surprised when Dumbledore asks him not to use that word -- this, to me, seems to imply that while Draco certainly understands what blood purity is about and knows that "Mudblood" is an offensive word, he doesn't comprehend just how big the issue is and what he is actually saying when he upholds his pureblood beliefs.

Again -- I'm not trying to make excuses for Draco; he has many faults and I realize this. However, I think those faults are largely caused by his naivety and blind faith in his parents.

Karleecakes, those are very good theories and they both make perfect sense to me. Thank you for expressing some of the things I was thinking but never could figure out completely for myself! :tu:

Also, his dialogue with Dumbledore in this whole scene seems more as if he's trying to reassure himself that he's going to do it.

I think it also seems as though he's just amazed that he's there at all -- up to now, his life has been very tame, confined to home and school, with nothing really big happening. Now all of a sudden he's actually out in the real world, an adult wizard, actually doing something that is going to have a huge influence on the entire wizarding world. He can't believe that he, Draco, the same Draco who sleeps in the Slytherin dormitory and eats in the Great Hall, is actually standing there about to seriously kill someone important. He's heard and talked about this kind of thing all his life, but now it's actually reality.

Thanks for reading through my post, BrianSeverus! It got so long that I was sure most people would just skim through it :(

Anyway, I agree with you on the blood purism issue, which relates to what I said in my previous post. The belief in the importance of pure blood is an important part of what was taught to him as a child. Although Lucius and Narcissa's belief system is skewed, it is still nevertheless "important" morals that they pass on to their child, just like any parent would. As a result, it's not as much a conscious decision to believe that pure-blooded wizards are superior, as it is "My-parents-said-it-so-it-must-be-true".


Again -- I'm not trying to make excuses for Draco; he has many faults and I realize this. However, I think those faults are largely caused by his naivety and blind faith in his parents.

That sums it up perfectly :tu:

Really good point there when you said that it makes him feel good. It helps him deal with the fact that there are people better than him. Also, it is his insult of choice whenever confronted, especially with those of less pure blood. Best example I can think of off the top of my head (sorry, I'm at work, don't have the books on me, so no direct quotes this time!), is in CoS when Draco is making fun of Fred and George for having tattered brooms. Hermione steps in and says that they got in on talent and that he had to buy his way in. I've heard a lot of people say that the first reaction to the truth is anger, and as a result, Draco, who probably has at least a sneaking suspicion that his father's donation of new brooms played a part in his selection for the Quidditch team, lashes out and calls her a Mudblood. He really doesn't have anything else to say when he knows that she is (at least partially) correctt, and time and time again, all Draco can say is, "...well at least my blood is purer than yours."

He really doesn't have anything else to say when he knows that she is (at least partially) correctt, and time and time again, all Draco can say is, "...well at least my blood is purer than yours."

I agree absolutely

I think the ideas imposed on Draco by his parents don't just help him justify his perceived superiority but his eagerness in accepting the role of Death Eater. His father, who is probably the greatest influence in Draco's life, has always worn his Dark Mark proudly and has, probably repeatedly, told Draco about the LV's ideology. From this, Draco can conclude, albeit naively, that this is something he would probably want to do in the future. He grew up with the ideology that purebloods were superior to muggleborns. Of course as a child, Draco would have believed everything his parents told him. His parents certainly told him about blood superiority and the like. Draco is a prime example of the Nature vs. Nurture debate. We know that his ancestors were Muggle Haters (i.e. Brutus Malfoy and the House of Black) and that his parents carried on these beliefs. Plus, JKR loved making these "inbred" families unstable and violent (Gaunts and Blacks). The Malfoy family, who bragged about being pureblood for many generations are probably considerably inbred. This may be a biological cause for Draco's indecisiveness, mean attitude and instability.

As a child, Draco has seen his father bully people into submission with his money, connections and name. He probably has even heard about how Lucius avoided Azkaban after the end of LV. From that, a child would conclude that to get ahead in the world, one would need to be rather nasty and a bit of a bully. It didn't help that he was spoiled rotten and allowed to act up. So was Draco innately mean and nasty? No, it was due to his raising and his childhood experiences. However, I still think it interesting that Draco tried to befriend Harry Potter before finding out who Harry is. I think this speaks a lot about Draco's character. He isn't a mean bully to everyone, only those that he has a cause to. Admittedly, Draco was arrogant and condescending in his introduction but he did make a honest effort at friendship. Harry was rather rude in rebuffing Draco's efforts. Later on, influenced by the values of his peers, Draco began being mean to all members of Gryffindor. (We also see this in Harry with his prejudice against Slytherin)

I think he's rather like James in this respect. Spoiled rotten, adored by family, a bit of a troublemaker, carries strongly the view of his parents, arrogant and rather popular. It just so happens that James and Draco have different ideologies. Draco has been raised with the traditional values of the Slytherin House. Save your own neck before you save others, use any means to get what you want. James was raised with the traditional values of the Gryffindor House. Chivalry, bravery and loyalty, plus the occasional side note of being too quick to act. We see both characters display these views and characteristics in the novel.

So all in all, Draco was shaped by his biggest influences, his family, friends, peers and of course his enemies. The people around him supported his desire of becoming a Death Eater, his friends held him in awe and stroked his ego quite a bit, his enemies fell to Dumbledore's side. All of this influenced him in his actions through HBP and DH.

Draco's indecisiveness, mean attitude and instability.

What cannon do you base this claim on? :)

So was Draco innately mean and nasty?

I think to do the kind of things Draco did during his first five years at Hogwarts, you have to have some kind of innate meanness in you. Indoctrination couldn't, in my opinion, account for Draco's actions at school without the help of some basic personal penchant for cruelty. If Draco had really been a nice child at heart, when he got to Hogwarts, away from his parents' authority and with rules in place prohibiting meanness, he would never have been the bully he was.

Not to say that Draco was innately a stuck-up bully and a sadist. However, I think it's pretty clear that he had some kind of natural inclination towards bullying others. With the right nurturing, that could have been diverted into healthier channels, but unfortunately it was allowed to turn him into the child he was during his first five years at Hogwarts.

I think he's rather like James in this respect. Spoiled rotten, adored by family, a bit of a troublemaker, carries strongly the view of his parents, arrogant and rather popular. It just so happens that James and Draco have different ideologies. Draco has been raised with the traditional values of the Slytherin House. Save your own neck before you save others, use any means to get what you want. James was raised with the traditional values of the Gryffindor House. Chivalry, bravery and loyalty, plus the occasional side note of being too quick to act. We see both characters display these views and characteristics in the novel.

People tend to disagree with this comparison, preferring to compare Draco and Regulus, but I have always thought that the parallels between the characters of Draco and James are so much more striking. I don't think it is just a coincidence that in TPT James says about Slytherin exactly the same thing Draco says about Hufflepuff in the first book: "Imagine being in Slytherin, I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?"

I don't think it is just a coincidence that in TPT James says about Slytherin exactly the same thing Draco says about Hufflepuff in the first book: "Imagine being in Slytherin, I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?"
Once again, I agree with another well written post by you :tu:

Draco and James are more similar than some would like to admit. In bullying Snape, you see James' mean streak. This isn't to say he's a bad person, but a "nicer" person wouldn't have so publically humiliated Severus. I thought I was the only one that caught that line, it reminded me so much of what Draco had said to Harry previously. Obviously, it goes without saying that Draco himself has something of a mean streak. His incessant bullying of not only Harry, but other students as well, attests to that. If he really was a kind person, then when Ron and Harry used the Polyjuice Potion to become Crabbe and Goyle, he probably would have not said that Crabbe (or Goyle? Not entirely sure here, at work again) was so slow they were almost going backwards. Not exactly a nice thing to say to your "friends."

As Aquamarine said, he and James are rather similar in that they were popular, arrogant, and coddled by their parents. In James you see what Draco could have been had he been raised in a different environment where pureness of blood and the Death Eater morale were not taught. Personally, I find the thought very fascinating :)

I think to do the kind of things Draco did during his first five years at Hogwarts, you have to have some kind of innate meanness in you. Indoctrination couldn't, in my opinion, account for Draco's actions at school without the help of some basic personal penchant for cruelty. If Draco had really been a nice child at heart, when he got to Hogwarts, away from his parents' authority and with rules in place prohibiting meanness, he would never have been the bully he was.

I don't take so lenient a view of Harry's antics against Draco though, so perhaps that is why I am willing to give Draco a little more quarter in his behavior. Draco, for his self-serving reasons, did try to be friendly at first - Harry followed Ron in rebuffing him (PS/SS). Harry polyjuiced Draco's best buddies to decieve Draco in Slytherin and followed around in HBP - including into the bathroom, advancing when he was crying causing him humiliation and then tossed a curse, sight unseen upon him (HBP). He also made some rather knarly remarks about Draco's father and mother in GoF and OOTP. There are more examples, but suffice it to say that throughout, I saw Harry as being just as antagonistic toward Draco as Draco was toward Harry (imo).

We have Harry's POV and I think it is fairly easy to understand why he does and says some of the things he does, but from Draco's point of view, I feel he thinks Harry is just bullying him (he doesn't have Harry's POV). And that isn't to say Draco didn't return the favor full force, I think he did, but I feel that Harry had it in for Draco as well, so I don't really see this as a big bad Draco against poor, defenseless Harry situation. I think they were both responsible for the way that their interaction and relationship developed over time.

Character wise, Draco I think carried more flaws and less basis for his actions, as written, and I feel Draco did resort to more nefarious means at times, but not always - sometimes Harry carried that role, imo. Nonetheless, I wouldn't totally place Harry in the right in their overall interaction.

There's something I just thought of about Draco through reading the discussions about his behaviour towards the Trio (Incidentally, I agree that Harry was also pretty unkind to Draco at times, and that seeing things from Harry's POV makes Draco seem worse than he is).

In HBP, we see that Draco cannot kill, and in DH that he very much dislikes using Cruciatus, but when I think about the earlier books, to me it seems that Draco's never much liked physical violence. Yes, he likes to say mean things, but very rarely does he directly attempt to hurt anyone. The only times I can recall, although I could very well be wrong, are a) the ferret incident, which occurs right after Harry has said something along these lines: "And what about your mother, Malfoy? You know that look she's got, like she's got dung under her nose? Was that just because you were with her?" If someone suggested that my mother didn't love me, in fact was disgusted by me, I'd feel like hexing them too. Draco never insinuates something as horrible as that, even about Molly Weasley, the most he really does is call her, rather childishly, fat and poor. Which is still horrible, but not quite on the same scale. And of course, the second time was when Harry sees him crying in the bathroom. But other than that, I can't really think of any incidents where Draco started a physical fight, or even fought back. Can anyone else? I don't have time to check through all the books right now (there are far too many Draco incidents to count, and I have to go to work).

Think about a 7th grader yelling in our world "You'll be next n******". Its what Malfoy does in COS, its pretty disturbing to say the least. Although it is Lucious's beliefs.

Think about a 7th grader yelling in our world "You'll be next n******". Its what Malfoy does in COS, its pretty disturbing to say the least. Although it is Lucious's beliefs.

Oh, I agree Draco said some awful things. That's the reason that Harry, Ron and others are often trying to beat him up. (Although I would say that in that case he was indoctrinated by his parents. He didn't really realise how much that would hurt- "Mudblood" is a common word to him.)

But I was making the point that Draco shies away from physical violence. I'm not saying that verbal violence is any less damaging (it can be more so), just that this seems to be a feature of his character (that meant he really wasn't suited to being a DE, something he realised in HBP). It was just something I noticed is all :)

I don't take so lenient a view of Harry's antics against Draco though, so perhaps that is why I am willing to give Draco a little more quarter in his behavior. Draco, for his self-serving reasons, did try to be friendly at first - Harry followed Ron in rebuffing him (PS/SS). Harry polyjuiced Draco's best buddies to decieve Draco in Slytherin and followed around in HBP - including into the bathroom, advancing when he was crying causing him humiliation and then tossed a curse, sight unseen upon him (HBP). He also made some rather knarly remarks about Draco's father and mother in GoF and OOTP. There are more examples, but suffice it to say that throughout, I saw Harry as being just as antagonistic toward Draco as Draco was toward Harry (imo).

I agree with you completely here -- I've never thought Harry was particularly justified in his treatment of Draco. In fact, I would view some of the things he does to him (sneaking into the Slytherin compartment to listen to Draco's private conversation, for instance) as much more cruel than Draco's insults and empty threats. In my view, Harry is certainly as antagonistic towards Draco as Draco is towards him -- if not more so. By no means is it a case of "mean Draco" and "poor Harry."

In many ways, Draco's meanness is more understandable than Harry's (in my view, anyway). Harry rejected Draco's offer of friendship and then proceeded to hate him viciously throughout their years at Hogwarts -- I find it quite easy to understand why somebody would taunt their enemy for things like Rita's articles in GoF and Harry's dementor problem in PoA (even a friend might taunt another friend about that kind of thing). Why somebody would feel they need to stalk their enemy for a year on suspicions of nasty activity is a little less clear to me.

"Mudblood" is a common word to him.

I agree that Draco does shy away from physical violence throughout the series, but as to the word "Mudblood" being common to him, I'm not so sure that's true. Certainly I think that after his second year he uses it without thinking at all, because he's so used to it, but I get the impression that in his second year it was still a pretty new word to him (after all, he hadn't used it before). However, I agree that he probably didn't really understand the full implications of the word at that time. To me, it seems as though he uses that word to shock people -- "Look at me, I can use big curse words!" -- and to insult them, but not to tell people what he thinks about blood purity. Though I'm sure he knows what the word means, I don't think he really understands what saying it means. To him, it's just an extra-powerful insult that puts him above everyone else.

I agree with you completely here -- I've never thought Harry was particularly justified in his treatment of Draco. In fact, I would view some of the things he does to him (sneaking into the Slytherin compartment to listen to Draco's private conversation, for instance) as much more cruel than Draco's insults and empty threats. In my view, Harry is certainly as antagonistic towards Draco as Draco is towards him -- if not more so. By no means is it a case of "mean Draco" and "poor Harry."

Frankly I applaud your courage in say this; I happen to agree with as well. I think Dumbledore refers to their relationship as mutual enmity (or something to that effect) and I think that this is one of the times he is being used by JKR to tell the reader a truth.

No Draco isn't a fluffy 'ikle bunny wabbit but he is not, certainly in the first 5 books, the force of evil Harry seems to think he is as far as I can see.

In many ways, Draco's meanness is more understandable than Harry's (in my view, anyway). Harry rejected Draco's offer of friendship and then proceeded to hate him viciously throughout their years at Hogwarts -- I find it quite easy to understand why somebody would taunt their enemy for things like Rita's articles in GoF and Harry's dementor problem in PoA (even a friend might taunt another friend about that kind of thing). Why somebody would feel they need to stalk their enemy for a year on suspicions of nasty activity is a little less clear to me.

Hmm I think Harry's behaviour is both interesting and muddies the water a tad on his being uber loving & compassionate - but that's not for this thread! :D

I agree that Draco does shy away from physical violence throughout the series,

I forgot to mention the first time this was mentioned that it seems like a good catch to me :tu:

To me, it seems as though he uses that word to shock people -- "Look at me, I can use big curse words!" -- and to insult them, but not to tell people what he thinks about blood purity. Though I'm sure he knows what the word means, I don't think he really understands what saying it means. To him, it's just an extra-powerful insult that puts him above everyone else.

Oh I half really agree with you and half disagree :yuhup:

I do think that there is a huge element of "Look at me, I can use big curse words!", its really common in kids when they first begin to swear to under estimate the hurt they cause because they pay more attention to the power the word seems to have.

However - I think he does have a very particular stance on blood purity and I do think that in the 'eat slugs' argument he uses the 'mudblood' to make a point that his blood is clean and Hermione's is not, but I can't say that it is 100% about that because I think the "I can use big curse words!" element is also a player in that scene.

However - I think he does have a very particular stance on blood purity and I do think that in the 'eat slugs' argument he uses the 'mudblood' to make a point that his blood is clean and Hermione's is not, but I can't say that it is 100% about that because I think the "I can use big curse words!" element is also a player in that scene.

Oh, absolutely, Draco has a very particular stance on blood purity -- even at that point in his life -- and he does use that word because he believes that his blood makes him better than Hermione. This scene is really one of the first where the blood purity issue is introduced, and it is hugely important here. However, I think that that is due more to everyone else's reactions to the word rather than to Draco's motives in using it. Draco's principal motive in this argument, I think, is to insult Hermione and, more importantly, to prove to everyone that he is better than she is (the big-curse-words aspect comes into play here). I think Karleecakes said it best a little while ago:

He really doesn't have anything else to say when he knows that she is (at least partially) correctt, and time and time again, all Draco can say is, "...well at least my blood is purer than yours."

Later on, I think Draco starts using the word Mudblood without thinking about it -- the novelty has worn off, and now it's just a useful insult he can use on people. A key example of this is the Tower scene, when he makes some remark about Mudbloods (don't have the book right now, so apologies for any mistakes) and is surprised when Dumbledore objects to the use of that word. This, to me, indicates that by his sixth year Draco doesn't really consider the word "Mudblood" offensive anymore -- probably simply because he's been saying it so long that he's almost forgotten what it means.

You'd think a young wizard would think a little bit more about the words he chose and their power...but then Draco is not necessarily one of our great thinkers. :p

My impression was that Draco knew full well what he was saying when he used the term Mudblood. I feel that all of those using the term did - beyond an insult, it was a total viewpoint toward muggleborns that spoke to inferiority and impurity, and those of muggle birth ruining the wizard world - as Voldemort put it, a branch that had to be cut off the family tree (DH DLA). I think Draco and all of those using the term felt the same way about muggleborns in general - although not all of those using the term were willing to join the DEs and kill them together with muggles, others were. I believe Draco thought he was capable of doing so, but recognized very early on that was not the case. Although he appeared to truly hold the view, he wasn't able to directly murder anyone, imo, although indirect murder wasn't beyond him, imo, as he did send out the poisonous gifts.

My impression was that Draco knew full well what he was saying when he used the term Mudblood. I feel that all of those using the term did - beyond an insult, it was a total viewpoint toward muggleborns that spoke to inferiority and impurity, and those of muggle birth ruining the wizard world - as Voldemort put it, a branch that had to be cut off the family tree (DH DLA).

I think part of the problem in considering Draco's motives here is that it's difficult to separate our thinking about this issue from an adult point of view and remember that in CoS, Draco is just a twelve-year-old boy who's mad because somebody's just told him that he's spoiled and bad at Quidditch (more or less). Not being an adult, he doesn't use the word "Mudblood" the way an adult does. When Lucius uses the word "Mudblood," he truly does have that malicious intent you're talking about -- he's deliberately using an offensive word to demonstrate his beliefs that Muggle-borns are inferior. Draco, however, is much younger and more naive than his father, and can't, in my opinion, be expected to have the same calculated intentions to take a stand on an issue he can't fully understand (no twelve-year-old, in my opinion, is really going to completely understand something as complex and serious as blood purity. As far as I can see, some adults don't).

This scene isn't a discussion of blood purity between rational adults (or even irrational ones); it's a schoolyard fight, and I think Draco's motives are appropriate to such a situation -- he's more concerned with putting Hermione down and impressing everyone else than with establishing his views on blood purity.

I'm not trying to say that Draco "doesn't know what he's saying" or to make him out to be an innocent little boy who really doesn't think Muggle-borns are scum. I simply think that he's focusing on the word Mudblood's convenient qualities (really effective insult and impressive curse word combined; what more could you want?) rather than on establishing his position on the complex blood-purity issue.

I think part of the problem in considering Draco's motives here is that it's difficult to separate our thinking about this issue from an adult point of view and remember that in CoS, Draco is just a twelve-year-old boy who's mad because somebody's just told him that he's spoiled and bad at Quidditch (more or less). Not being an adult, he doesn't use the word "Mudblood" the way an adult does. When Lucius uses the word "Mudblood," he truly does have that malicious intent you're talking about -- he's deliberately using an offensive word to demonstrate his beliefs that Muggle-borns are inferior. Draco, however, is much younger and more naive than his father, and can't, in my opinion, be expected to have the same calculated intentions to take a stand on an issue he can't fully understand (no twelve-year-old, in my opinion, is really going to completely understand something as complex and serious as blood purity. As far as I can see, some adults don't).

This scene isn't a discussion of blood purity between rational adults (or even irrational ones); it's a schoolyard fight, and I think Draco's motives are appropriate to such a situation -- he's more concerned with putting Hermione down and impressing everyone else than with establishing his views on blood purity.

I'm not trying to say that Draco "doesn't know what he's saying" or to make him out to be an innocent little boy who really doesn't think Muggle-borns are scum. I simply think that he's focusing on the word Mudblood's convenient qualities (really effective insult and impressive curse word combined; what more could you want?) rather than on establishing his position on the complex blood-purity issue.

I agree that at a young age, kids are still forming their ideas, beliefs, opinions, etc., but I was responding to the bit about Draco saying it on the tower to Dumbledore. At that time he was a tatooed Death Eater, 16 years old and fully aware of all the details related to blood prejudice, imo. Nonetheless, I think Draco had it all sussed out sometime between first and second year, he was a bright child, imo and he was surrounded by a lot of older Slytherins, and those we saw carried the same ideals - that together with his family adding the benefit of their knowledge I think would see most of these kids coming to an early understanding of the issue. I don't think that it was looked upon as very complex by those holding the view, although I agree it can be seen as such.

I agree that at a young age, kids are still forming their ideas, beliefs, opinions, etc., but I was responding to the bit about Draco saying it on the tower to Dumbledore. At that time he was a tatooed Death Eater, 16 years old and fully aware of all the details related to blood prejudice, imo. Nonetheless, I think Draco had it all sussed out sometime between first and second year, he was a bright child, imo and he was surrounded by a lot of older Slytherins, and those we saw carried the same ideals - that together with his family adding the benefit of their knowledge I think would see most of these kids coming to an early understanding of the issue. I don't think that it was looked upon as very complex by those holding the view, although I agree it can be seen as such.

I agree that, even in COS, Draco knew and understood what 'Mudblood' meant, but I don't think he really realised just what a horrible word it was. Although he definitely thought he was better than Hermione because of his pure blood, to him this wasn't being racist or prejudiced. To him, certainly at the age of 12 and possibly still in HBP, it was just a fact. After all, he takes all the rest of Lucius' opinions to be gospel truth: why not that one? He knew he was being unkind, and that was his intention, but I don't think he realised just how unkind. I think the 'blood purity' idea was so deeply ingrained in Draco's mind at that point that I doubt it would have crossed his mind that Hermione, until then, hadn't realised that there was prejudice in the wizarding world against those whose parents were Muggles. We don't know if this was true, but we do know she hasn't heard the word before (while Ron is belching up slugs, she asks about what it means). I think Draco would have thought she must know she was inferior (in his way of thinking), like you'd expect her to know any other basic fact, like stone is hard or water is wet. He was just reminding her of it to insult her.

I know that doesn't make much logical sense, but I'm just trying to think about what might have been going on in Draco's head at the time. Obviously that's all speculation, there's nothing canon in the books to tell us what goes on inside anyone's mind but Harry's, but it seems likely to me.

I agree that at a young age, kids are still forming their ideas, beliefs, opinions, etc., but I was responding to the bit about Draco saying it on the tower to Dumbledore. At that time he was a tatooed Death Eater, 16 years old and fully aware of all the details related to blood prejudice, imo.

Certainly Draco, by his sixth year, understood as well as anybody the details related to blood prejudice. However, I don't think that that issue was particularly on his mind during his sixth year. If we know anything about Draco from the books, it's that he was under an immense amount of pressure and stress during that year, and his mind was occupied with two things only: the task he had been given, and the consequences of failure. When he used the word Mudblood on the Tower, I believe he did it without thinking about it at all -- he'd been using the word for so long that it was second nature.

Nonetheless, I think Draco had it all sussed out sometime between first and second year, he was a bright child, imo and he was surrounded by a lot of older Slytherins, and those we saw carried the same ideals - that together with his family adding the benefit of their knowledge I think would see most of these kids coming to an early understanding of the issue. I don't think that it was looked upon as very complex by those holding the view, although I agree it can be seen as such.

I agree that Draco was a bright child, but I know from experience that it's completely possible to be both bright and really clueless at the same time. Moreover, I think the people who believed in blood purity did so for all kinds of different reasons. Draco, I think, believed in blood purity because his father did and because it made him better than others in all kinds of ways. You feel pretty superior as a child if you know that your parents support an unpopular cause. Even if you don't fully understand it, you'll try to be like them and stand up for that cause -- which I think is part of what motivates Draco. He wants to be like his father, so he believes in blood purity (which he probably never even thinks to question until his sixth year).

In conclusion, I would say that Draco understands the blood purity issue, but doesn't really think about it much at all. Instead, he prefers to follow his father blindly and doesn't question his beliefs or ponder the issue for himself. I just don't see him as the type to really think hard about and consider a big issue like that -- not as a child, at any rate.

Certainly Draco, by his sixth year, understood as well as anybody the details related to blood prejudice. However, I don't think that that issue was particularly on his mind during his sixth year. If we know anything about Draco from the books, it's that he was under an immense amount of pressure and stress during that year, and his mind was occupied with two things only: the task he had been given, and the consequences of failure. When he used the word Mudblood on the Tower, I believe he did it without thinking about it at all -- he'd been using the word for so long that it was second nature.

I agree that Draco was a bright child, but I know from experience that it's completely possible to be both bright and really clueless at the same time. Moreover, I think the people who believed in blood purity did so for all kinds of different reasons. Draco, I think, believed in blood purity because his father did and because it made him better than others in all kinds of ways. You feel pretty superior as a child if you know that your parents support an unpopular cause. Even if you don't fully understand it, you'll try to be like them and stand up for that cause -- which I think is part of what motivates Draco. He wants to be like his father, so he believes in blood purity (which he probably never even thinks to question until his sixth year).

In conclusion, I would say that Draco understands the blood purity issue, but doesn't really think about it much at all. Instead, he prefers to follow his father blindly and doesn't question his beliefs or ponder the issue for himself. I just don't see him as the type to really think hard about and consider a big issue like that -- not as a child, at any rate.

I see what you are saying. I do think that was something many with the blood purist views faced - no real basis for their belief other than it having been passed on to them by someone else. I would agree if one asked Draco (or many others) what the basis for their belief was, they would be hardpressed to give a reasonable answer - unless it was something along the lines of Muggleborns being less adept and capable at magic and thus, draining wizards of their birthright - that was what I felt Slughorn implied. But I am not sure others even thought about that or anything else - rather I would agree that they simply held the belief. I am not sure what Draco's take on it was - he had evidence of a blazingly talented muggleborn witch before his eyes in Hermione - and I feel he was aware that Voldemort was a halfblood (this issue was well sorted by the purebloods it appears) - so I would agree that Draco didn't likely consider the issue in depth - as I feel so many didn't.

I see what you are saying. I do think that was something many with the blood purist views faced - no real basis for their belief other than it having been passed on to them by someone else. I would agree if one asked Draco (or many others) what the basis for their belief was, they would be hardpressed to give a reasonable answer - unless it was something along the lines of Muggleborns being less adept and capable at magic and thus, draining wizards of their birthright - that was what I felt Slughorn implied. But I am not sure others even thought about that or anything else - rather I would agree that they simply held the belief. I am not sure what Draco's take on it was - he had evidence of a blazingly talented muggleborn witch before his eyes in Hermione - and I feel he was aware that Voldemort was a halfblood (this issue was well sorted by the purebloods it appears) - so I would agree that Draco didn't likely consider the issue in depth - as I feel so many didn't.

Back from holiday :)

I absolutely agree, I don't think any of the pureblood supremacists, but particularly Draco, ever thought in depth about their beliefs. Those that did question them, .e.g. Andromeda falling in love with 'a Mudblood' and realising that he wasn't that different to anyone else, often end up turning away from those beliefs.

Which was why they came up with a spectacularly rubbish line of reasoning for prosecuting Muggleborns in DH- 'people without magical parents can't do magic, therefore you must have stolen it from someone' when it's obvious magic doesn't work like that. But to them it makes sense, because of how firmly entrenched their (usually hammered into them by their parents) beliefs are. For Draco, I think he simply thought that 'Muggleborns are inferior' was a fact, and didn't question it any more than any other fact.

Back from holiday :)

I absolutely agree, I don't think any of the pureblood supremacists, but particularly Draco, ever thought in depth about their beliefs. Those that did question them, .e.g. Andromeda falling in love with 'a Mudblood' and realising that he wasn't that different to anyone else, often end up turning away from those beliefs.

Which was why they came up with a spectacularly rubbish line of reasoning for prosecuting Muggleborns in DH- 'people without magical parents can't do magic, therefore you must have stolen it from someone' when it's obvious magic doesn't work like that.

I laughed when I read that because I thought it was total Rubbish too. It seemed as if they didn't really even try to come up with a reasonable reason - but just settled on any old excuse to justify killing the muggleborns, imo. And I agree that most wouldn't have given it deep thought along those lines, including Draco. The 'why' didn't seem to be so important.

But to them it makes sense, because of how firmly entrenched their (usually hammered into them by their parents) beliefs are. For Draco, I think he simply thought that 'Muggleborns are inferior' was a fact, and didn't question it any more than any other fact.

True. Draco said something to Harry about 'us and them' when they first met, but he didn't go into any detail. I would agree Draco didn't likely question it, but just accepted it once his parents told him. You would think though that eventually he'd give it some thought, perhaps after the war when older. Perhaps if his own son asks why. Still, Draco knew that it made those he said it to, and their friends, angry or upset, so he understood the basic idea of it being a term of inferiority and hurtful to others, imo. If for no other reason, that should advise him to think about it, imo.

Oh, absolutely, Draco has a very particular stance on blood purity -- even at that point in his life -- and he does use that word because he believes that his blood makes him better than Hermione. This scene is really one of the first where the blood purity issue is introduced, and it is hugely important here.

I'd like to point out that the blood purity issue was introduced in PS, when Harry and Draco first met in Diagon Alley, Draco was saying that the they shouldn't let the other kind in, after he had asked about Harry's parents.


In HBP, we see that Draco cannot kill, and in DH that he very much dislikes using Cruciatus, but when I think about the earlier books, to me it seems that Draco's never much liked physical violence. Yes, he likes to say mean things, but very rarely does he directly attempt to hurt anyone. The only times I can recall, although I could very well be wrong, are a) the ferret incident, which occurs right after Harry has said something along these lines: "And what about your mother, Malfoy? You know that look she's got, like she's got dung under her nose? Was that just because you were with her?" If someone suggested that my mother didn't love me, in fact was disgusted by me, I'd feel like hexing them too. Draco never insinuates something as horrible as that, even about Molly Weasley, the most he really does is call her, rather childishly, fat and poor. Which is still horrible, but not quite on the same scale. And of course, the second time was when Harry sees him crying in the bathroom. But other than that, I can't really think of any incidents where Draco started a physical fight, or even fought back. Can anyone else? I don't have time to check through all the books right now (there are far too many Draco incidents to count, and I have to go to work).

I think the reason Draco rarely tends to use violence, hp that he had all the case and love he needed as a child, yet he was never spoiled like Dudley, (in CoS, his father refused to buy him the hand of glory, because a muggle born had achieved better grades than him).
Violence usually comes from people who lack love and care, like Voldemort and possibly Harry, who intends to hurt Draco as much as possible, when he offends him in OOTP. The few situations when Draco had intended to hurt other people, the main reason was protecting member(s) of his family, apart from the situation you mentioned above, Draco attempted to murder Dumbledore, so Voldemort wouldn't kill his family, also he ' makes and angry movement' toward Harry, when Harry insulted Narcissa in Diagno Alley (HBP), he usually had a good reason to use violence, like you said anybody would get angry if their family was insulted, let alone murdered.

I thought of Draco as working with Harry and Ron at the Auror's office, and having a small rivalry with Harry and Ron. During DH, I believe that he only continued to serve Voldemort, because he was forced to. His parents were against it, but Voldemort, because Lucius, having failed at the Department of Mysteries, forced Draco to become a Death Eater. Then, after his failed assasination of Dumbledore, Voldemort decided that Draco still has to fight for him, because of Draco's failure.After Crabbe's death, he saw the error of his ways, and helped the order. He blamed the death of Crabbe on Voldemort, who ordered that curses be taught and because of that, he helped Harry. Draco, in 7 books, went from a snobbish bully, to an emotional, complex, forced Death Eater, who saw his best friend die before his eyes.

I'd like to point out that the blood purity issue was introduced in PS, when Harry and Draco first met in Diagon Alley, Draco was saying that the they shouldn't let the other kind in, after he had asked about Harry's parents.

That's why I said one of the first...the slug scene is the one, I think, where there's a big emphasis put on it for the first time. But it certainly is mentioned before that.

After Crabbe's death, he saw the error of his ways, and helped the order. He blamed the death of Crabbe on Voldemort, who ordered that curses be taught and because of that, he helped Harry.

I'd say he realized the error of his ways long before Crabbe's death. I think throughout DH it seemed that he was disgusted and horrified by the things his family was doing around him (and that he was being forced to do), and in the RoR I got the impression that he'd made a decision that he wasn't going to do those things (thus his yelling "Don't kill him!").

Whether he was trying to help Harry or not at that point is another issue -- I don't think he really was. I think his wand was actually the thing most on his mind. After all, it's the first thing he mentions, and it's rather "out of the blue," since they weren't saying anything about wands before he mentioned it.

However, I think even Draco was confused about what he was trying to do at that point, so it's really difficult, or even impossible, to really figure out what his motives were at that point.

After Crabbe's death, though, I don't see any evidence that he helped the order. As far as I can see, he just hid (and a very good idea, too, without a wand and with nobody who knew what side he was on...going out into the battle like that would've been mindless, IMO).

All this isn't necessarily that important, though, and I agree with your last statement (though not yet sure whether Crabbe really counts as a best friend or not):

Draco, in 7 books, went from a snobbish bully, to an emotional, complex, forced Death Eater, who saw his best friend die before his eyes.

Draco never insinuates something as horrible as that,

You've clearly forgotten his "dragged-up by Muggles" comment to Harry and his "remember what your mother's house smelled like" dig.

Those were racist comments about Harry's dead mother and were much worse than Harry's "your mom doesn't like being around you".

Let's not turn this into "who was meaner, Draco or Harry", please.

I think the reason Draco rarely tends to use violence, hp that he had all the case and love he needed as a child, yet he was never spoiled like Dudley, (in CoS, his father refused to buy him the hand of glory, because a muggle born had achieved better grades than him).

I didn't see Draco as spoiled to the degree of Dudley either; the scene you mention - but also his interaction with his dad at the big Quidditch game made me feel that way as well. I do think he was spoiled to some degree, just not overstuffed and never denied the way Dudley seemed to be, imo. The fact that he remained so dependent ("wait till I tell my father") rather spoke to a bit of insecurity on his part, imo, which would have also resulted from his upbringing, in my judgment. I don't think overall that was very impactual, I felt the views his parents instilled were more determinative with respect to his behavior and personality.

The few situations when Draco had intended to hurt other people, the main reason was protecting member(s) of his family, apart from the situation you mentioned above, Draco attempted to murder Dumbledore, so Voldemort wouldn't kill his family, he usually had a good reason to use violence, like you said anybody would get angry if their family was insulted, let alone murdered.

Well I would have to disagree that there is ever a good reason to use violence on an innocent man (in this case, attempt to murder Dumbledore). I agree that Draco loving and wanting to protect his family was admirable, but I think the lengths he was willing to go to in order to ensure their safety (the attempts on Dumbledore, joining the DEs, etc.) defeated his purpose as such, imo. I think that by DH, Draco finally came to see that the means he chose were as important as his goals.

I didn't see Draco as spoiled to the degree of Dudley either; the scene you mention - but also his interaction with his dad at the big Quidditch game made me feel that way as well. I do think he was spoiled to some degree, just not overstuffed and never denied the way Dudley seemed to be, imo. The fact that he remained so dependent ("wait till I tell my father") rather spoke to a bit of insecurity on his part, imo, which would have also resulted from his upbringing, in my judgment. I don't think overall that was very impactual, I felt the views his parents instilled were more determinative with respect to his behavior and personality.

I agree with you, Draco was brought up as a single child, surrounded only by adults, this imo, contributed in his dependance on his parents untill an advanced stage in his life. Yet, I don't think in the Moody incident his reaction went back to dependance, imo, Draco was used to being looked up to by his friends, being a favourite of Snape's well treated by his parents and other teachers, and in that incident he was humilated, in front of a large number of people including his friends and his enemies,too, imo, his ego was wounded deeply in that situation, and so he couldn't think of anything but the closest person to him the one who had the power to return his dignity.

Well I would have to disagree that there is ever a good reason to use violence on an innocent man (in this case, attempt to murder Dumbledore). I agree that Draco loving and wanting to protect his family was admirable, but I think the lengths he was willing to go to in order to ensure their safety (the attempts on Dumbledore, joining the DEs, etc.) defeated his purpose as such, imo. I think that by DH, Draco finally came to see that the means he chose were as important as his goals.

IMO, Draco untill the end of DH, probably untill the epilogue, didn't know which way he was going and which way he prefered and considered right. He was always torn between the right thing and glory, in HBP, when Voldemort had assigned him the mission of murdering Dumbledore, he was proud of it and was boasting in front of his friends, yet when he came to the stage of actual fulfillment he shied away from the mission and couldn't even raise his wand steadily, in DH, we see through Harry's visions that Draco wasn't able to torture another DE on Voldemort's orders, yet in the final battle he can't resist the urge of capturing Harry and handing him to Voldemort, and so return glory to his family. He has suffered from the same indecision in many situations, imo, he sometimes didn't know what were the goals he was trying to achieve, which makes me think that he was quite unexperienced, even for a boy in his age, he underestimated a lot of things including Voldemort's mission, he acted to save his family's life, which imo was great burden on his shoulders, that resulted in the rash actions he made -e.g, the cursed necklace and the poisoned drink-,imo.

I'd say he realized the error of his ways long before Crabbe's death. I think throughout DH it seemed that he was disgusted and horrified by the things his family was doing around him (and that he was being forced to do), and in the RoR I got the impression that he'd made a decision that he wasn't going to do those things (thus his yelling "Don't kill him!").
You do make a good point, which I didn't think of before, however, he could have said that because Voldemort wanted to finish off Harry


However, I think even Draco was confused about what he was trying to do at that point, so it's really difficult, or even impossible, to really figure out what his motives were at that point.
True, who knows what he could have been doing, or who he was working for.


As far as I can see, he just hid (and a very good idea, too, without a wand and with nobody who knew what side he was on...going out into the battle like that would've been mindless, IMO).
I agree with this, seeing as nobody knew which side he was on, if a Death Eater found him helping the Order, he would have been dead instantly. Hiding was a smart idea, because if he hadn't, he'd be in the middle of a battlefield without a wand.


All this isn't necessarily that important, though, and I agree with your last statement (though not yet sure whether Crabbe really counts as a best friend or not):
Crabbe was more of a henchman than a friend.

You do make a good point, which I didn't think of before, however, he could have said that because Voldemort wanted to finish off Harry

I know that's the excuse he gives, but at that point I find it difficult to believe. Even if he wants everyone to think that's why he's doing it, I don't think he is. His attitude in the Malfoy Manor chapter seems sufficient to show that, whatever his beliefs, he doesn't like killing no matter what -- not even when he's not the one doing it.

But more than that, I think Draco learned at least one lesson in HBP: Never undertake a mission for Voldemort. What with his last DE-service experience in his memory, plus all the other distasteful things he'd been forced to do and watch that year, I think the last thing he would want to do would be to try to do some more work for Voldemort. The contrast between him and Lucius in Malfoy Manor seems to indicate he definitely didn't believe that bringing Potter to the Dark Lord would save them all, so that wouldn't be a reason to do it -- and I really don't see him suddenly deciding "Oh, I think I want to be a Death Eater after all; I'll get my henchmen and try to do a difficult and dangerous mission for the Dark Lord...without my own wand."

Crabbe was more of a henchman than a friend.

That's more or less my view...though Draco does get pretty upset over Crabbe's death, I think that's more because he'd known Crabbe for so long and had done so much with him.

I think that by DH, Draco finally came to see that the means he chose were as important as his goals.

Very well put -- I like this idea a lot. :tu:

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?No , I don't think she foreshadowed him being a death eater but she certainly showed us that he had the makings of a bully and we, as the readers ,were not supposed to like him as a person .

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.
yep Lucious does demand the best from his son which isn't ,in my opinion, a bad thing . The bad thing is the way he goes about it - putting Draco down and comparing him to his peers . I think it's obvious though that the malfoys are a family who are attached to each other .
3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?
I think it was a mixture . He wanted to make it for his fathers mistake as he wanted his family to stay in voldemorts good books however what cames with being a death eater was a feeling of importance until ,of course , he realized exactly what it entailed .

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.this is more of a statment and I don't know ow to add to it :lol:

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean? He's some one with bad morals and too much self importance . I don't think theres anything to really understand apart from that and the plot .

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?I think if he did regret the decision not to kill Dumbledore it's because he thinks he would be in a more favourable position with Voldemort , not because he hates Dumbledore and thinks " I wanted to be the one to kill the old bat !"

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.
I don't know , if another dangerous situation developed then maybe Draco would play a part then .
8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?I reckon he did a job low down in the ministery , or maybe the malfoys were so rich Draco didn't have to work ? His wife wasn't pansy , JK told us who it was - Astoria .

I think Draco is certainly pampered to an amazing degree and that is what creates his aura of arrogance. His family's values have also built a foundation of vanity and self-importance. :cool:

I think Draco is certainly pampered to an amazing degree and that is what creates his aura of arrogance. His family's values have also built a foundation of vanity and self-importance. :cool:

Draco's certainly arrogant, but pampered? I don't know. He is pampered and he isn't. He gets packages from home all the time, but his father is obviously very strict with him and gets angry when his grades aren't good enough. I'm inclined to think that his mother pampers him while his father is more strict and cold. However, I agree that Lucius's values (purebloods are supreme) have contributed greatly to Draco's vanity.

I think that, more than being pampered, Draco is lucky. He's a sheltered kid who has happened to grow up in a rich family, which I wouldn't consider pampering. I think if Mrs. Weasley could, she would pamper her children just as much as Narcissa pampers Draco -- but their family just isn't lucky. Unfortunately, Narcissa took it just a little too far, which is maybe a good thing -- if Draco hadn't been so sheltered and pampered, he might've had what it took to kill Dumbledore.

Draco's certainly arrogant, but pampered? I don't know. He is pampered and he isn't. He gets packages from home all the time, but his father is obviously very strict with him and gets angry when his grades aren't good enough. I'm inclined to think that his mother pampers him while his father is more strict and cold. However, I agree that Lucius's values (purebloods are supreme) have contributed greatly to Draco's vanity.

I think Draco is pampered to a certain degree, he is pampered but not spoiled. unlike the Dursleys the Malfoys were quite realistic, they didn't invent excuses to justify Draco's behaviour. But I really doubt that Lucius was strict and cold with his son. He refuses to buy him the hand of glory for more than one reason, he states that Draco's grades aren't good enough, then adds that he should be ashamed that a 'muggle born' had beaten him in magic. In that situation I think his father was aiming more at the fact that pure bloods should be better and more superior at magic than muggle borns, for in CoS -not much later than the incident at Borgin and Burke's- his father buys him a good broom and provides the rest of the team with brooms, too. And in HBP we know that Draco owns the hand of glory, with nothing in canon that tells he'd beaten Hermione at any school subject. I think his parents just wanted him to grasp the superiority of pure blooded families rather than improving his school grades. I always had the impression that Draco's grades were quite satisfying, he manages to continue in Transfiguration, potions and DADA, and I think he's parents were satisfied with that, too.

I think Draco is pampered to a certain degree, he is pampered but not spoiled. unlike the Dursleys the Malfoys were quite realistic, they didn't invent excuses to justify Draco's behaviour. But I really doubt that Lucius was strict and cold with his son. He refuses to buy him the hand of glory for more than one reason, he states that Draco's grades aren't good enough, then adds that he should be ashamed that a 'muggle born' had beaten him in magic. In that situation I think his father was aiming more at the fact that pure bloods should be better and more superior at magic than muggle borns, for in CoS -not much later than the incident at Borgin and Burke's- his father buys him a good broom and provides the rest of the team with brooms, too. And in HBP we know that Draco owns the hand of glory, with nothing in canon that tells he'd beaten Hermione at any school subject. I think his parents just wanted him to grasp the superiority of pure blooded families rather than improving his school grades. I always had the impression that Draco's grades were quite satisfying, he manages to continue in Transfiguration, potions and DADA, and I think he's parents were satisfied with that, too.

:agree: Yes, I agree with most of this. The Malfoys loved their son, so that he would be happy rather than living as though he were a king. Thus, the Malfoys reasoned properly before purchasing things for their son. I don't doubt that Lucius was strict; he wanted a stereotypical blood prejudicing academically brillian son. But, not cold. Lucius was punished and prepared to give up a high position in Voldemort's ranks in order to see if his son was safe. Lucius suggested an idea that to Voldemort was unbelievable and impossible; one that gave him displeasure.

I would strongly agree that Lucius (and Narcissa's) views of pure blood superiority affected the amount of presents Draco received. The parents would have thought that ranking below a half-blood was terrible as it was, let alone a muggle-born and friend of Harry Potter. Hermione's OWL results consisted of lots of Os and one E in Defence. It is possible that Draco at the time was already gufted with some duelling nature and thereby got an Oustanding DADA owl. However, this is not canon and purely speculation.

I too think Draco would be a reasonably high academic achiever. He seems mentally capable, just a little boasting, arrogant and proud. He was also intelligent, being able to steal Polyjuice potion without detection and think of a valid method to breach Hogwarts. Draco nearly conquered his aims in HPB, only lack of will, overwhelmsion and the mind of Albus Dumbledore prevented him.

Draco is not the best character; but he is certainly an interesting one.

Lucius was punished and prepared to give up a high position in Voldemort's ranks in order to see if his son was safe. Lucius suggested an idea that to Voldemort was unbelievable and impossible; one that gave him displeasure.

May I ask where do you get this idea? When did Malfoy suggest something to Voldemort? I can't remember.

I too think Draco would be a reasonably high academic achiever. He seems mentally capable, just a little boasting, arrogant and proud. He was also intelligent, being able to steal Polyjuice potion without detection and think of a valid method to breach Hogwarts. Draco nearly conquered his aims in HPB, only lack of will, overwhelmsion and the mind of Albus Dumbledore prevented him.

I was definitely impressed by the ways he managed to sneak the DEs into Hogwarts. But imo, lack of will wasn't the main reason Draco didn't commit murder. The main reason, was that he was never a bad person, he might have been arrogant, boasting, etc. but he wasn't cruel enough to do that mission, he fulfilled the mission to protect his family. But Dumbledore's words and offer had drained the remainder of his will, probably he'd have accepted Dumbledore's offer if other DEs didn't show up that moment.

Draco is not the best character; but he is certainly an interesting one.

Yes, I find him very interesting. Because we mostly see him through Harry's eyes, and so we get the impression that he's a bully. Sometimes he is, but he must have other traits that recommend him to his friends.

Yes, I find him very interesting. Because we mostly see him through Harry's eyes, and so we get the impression that he's a bully. Sometimes he is, but he must have other traits that recommend him to his friends.

I find it rather difficult to believe that Draco Malfoy isn't to some degree or another, a bully. While certain aspects of him are skewed by Harry's perceptions, how he treats other characters, not just Harry, is most indicative. His regular tormenting of Neville first year which included the theft of his remembrall on two occations, and at least one leg-locking curse, was entirely unprovoked. Upon becoming a prefect, he imediatly begins intimidating first years. He pretends to be in pain for weeks in hopes of getting Hagrid fired when he was attacked by Buckbeak (which IMO was a totally justified attack).

Draco isn't a bad person per se, but I certainly can't say he's a good person with a straight face. He's highly misguided IMO. Personally I think he was probably rather pampered for the most part (although the Borgin and Burkes scene does seem to indicate his father isn't incapable of coming down on him). Lucius essentially bought him a spot on the Slytherin quidditch team, I don't recall a single incident in which he regards another classmate as his equal, and although he isn't unitellegent (he repaired the vanishing cabinet and shows at least some skill in dueling) he seems to rely more on the reputation that comes with his name rather than his own skill to get him by.

I find it rather difficult to believe that Draco Malfoy isn't to some degree or another, a bully. While certain aspects of him are skewed by Harry's perceptions, how he treats other characters, not just Harry, is most indicative. His regular tormenting of Neville first year which included the theft of his remembrall on two occations, and at least one leg-locking curse, was entirely unprovoked. Upon becoming a prefect, he imediatly begins intimidating first years. He pretends to be in pain for weeks in hopes of getting Hagrid fired when he was attacked by Buckbeak (which IMO was a totally justified attack).

Draco isn't a bad person per se, but I certainly can't say he's a good person with a straight face. He's highly misguided IMO. Personally I think he was probably rather pampered for the most part (although the Borgin and Burkes scene does seem to indicate his father isn't incapable of coming down on him). Lucius essentially bought him a spot on the Slytherin quidditch team, I don't recall a single incident in which he regards another classmate as his equal, and although he isn't unitellegent (he repaired the vanishing cabinet and shows at least some skill in dueling) he seems to rely more on the reputation that comes with his name rather than his own skill to get him by.

I agree, Draco wasn't a good guy - although he came around in the end to being a better guy for all that is worth. However, one thing I thought about was that although Lucius may have bought Draco's place on the team, the kid had some game. He could fly well and he always gave Harry a run for his money, even before he'd start in with the nefarious tricks and antics to win. JKR had to do that in order to show that Harry had talent because if Draco was a doofus on the broom, he wouldn't be any challenge to Harry and serve in the role of showing off Harry's skill, imo. He was also pretty smart, doing well in his classes according to his father's expectations (Hermione beat him out, but not 1/2 the student body or anything).

So Draco had things going for him in his own right; but I agree that also came with him playing up the daddy's boy angle and reputation as a dark ruler in the making and all that. I rather thought he sunk to the depths by HBP though; attempting murder and joining the DEs and such - but he had enough arrogance to pull himself out of that hole before being completely sunk by it - really the only person in canon I recall doing so. So that does say something for his natural gumption and self survival traits at least. And later he went on to be the family man and such, so he seems to have retained his arrogance and self esteem through it all and gain a little morality along the way, imo.

although he isn't unitellegent (he repaired the vanishing cabinet and shows at least some skill in dueling) he seems to rely more on the reputation that comes with his name rather than his own skill to get him by.

I agree -- he does seem to rely heavily on his reputation rather than his skills. Personally, I think that this may be because he doesn't realize that he can rely on those skills. He's observed his father, presumably quite an intelligent man and a skilled wizard, using nothing but his influence to get what he wants, and I think Draco assumes that that's the best way to do things. Perhaps his parents have even told him in some way that his reputation will get him what he wants (I'm thinking about the first time they sent him off to Hogwarts, for instance -- "Remember you're a Malfoy" or something like that, though hopefully not as cheesily put). With the importance that the Malfoys put on their pure blood, I think it would be difficult for Draco not to get the impression that his Malfoy-hood was the best thing about him.

Besides -- even though he's quite intelligent and skilled, there's always someone who's better than him. Harry's better at Quidditch, Hermione's better at school, and I think he's also jealous of Ron for getting to "share the spotlight" of his friends, so to speak. Obviously his intelligence and Quidditch skill aren't going to impress the Trio much, so he needs to find some other weapon against them. And the one he finds, unfortunately, is his reputation.

As to his bullying -- I know it's said far too often, but I really think it's true: bullies hurt other people because they themselves are hurting. Perhaps Draco is frustrated by his inadequacy in comparison to the Trio, and felt that he wasn't living up to his parents' expectations. Perhaps he was jealous of their strong friendship and wanted something like it for himself. Perhaps he began to bully Neville in his first year because he was homesick (a distinct possibility, I think).

Not that he didn't necessarily have a bit of a sadistic streak...:p But I think there is more to it than that.

Which was why they came up with a spectacularly rubbish line of reasoning for prosecuting Muggleborns in DH- 'people without magical parents can't do magic, therefore you must have stolen it from someone' when it's obvious magic doesn't work like that.

Given that the mid-to-late 90's saw massive breakthroughs in genetic research including the mapping of DNA and Dolly the cloned sheep, I could see pure-bloods making a semi-plausible argument here.

Perhaps he began to bully Neville in his first year because he was homesick (a distinct possibility, I think).

Draco spends most of the first books shadowing either the Trio or Neville - he follows them to Hagrid's hunt and to their dragon exchange, he shows up when Ron is in the hospital wing and hounds Neville.

I think he was upset that none of them thought he was as impressive as he was and wouldn't let him join in on their adventures. Even if Draco loathed him, hanging out with that "savage/servant" Hagrid and having anything at all to do with dragons must have seemed far more interesting than hanging around his common room with Crabbe and Goyle.

I agree -- he does seem to rely heavily on his reputation rather than his skills. Personally, I think that this may be because he doesn't realize that he can rely on those skills.

IMO, it's because he finds it easier to rely on reputation than on skills. He could see other people getting what they need by their own effort. While he could get all he wants simply by ordering a house elf, threatening someone, bullying another, etc. why would he even try the other and harder way when he could get everything done by a few words?
Yet when he was forced to use his skills, he produced acceptable satisfying results. Which makes me think that with a little more experience, Draco would've been able to accomplish his mission much earlier and more satisfyingly. But quite unfortunately, he had never tried to use skill before he was forced to, before his father's influence was extinguished, imo.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater? Probably

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son. Yes, I think that's why Draco is so mean sometimes. :(

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado? I think most, if not all, are out of fear for himself and his family.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts. Probably because Draco was used to people being all like "Whoa! Your awesome!!"

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean? A little of both. But mostly misunderstood.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH? Sort of.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future. I don't know.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue? I hope it was Pansy......but it never really says..............

Yet when he was forced to use his skills, he produced acceptable satisfying results. Which makes me think that with a little more experience, Draco would've been able to accomplish his mission much earlier and more satisfyingly.I agree with the idea that in HBP, Draco lacked the experience at accomplishing tasks for Voldemort, and so was forced to use what skills he had to try and put together a plan that would work. I also agree that with more experience, Draco could probably have found a way to kill Dumbledore indirectly by using other people to get to him. However, I don't believe that Draco ever had it in him to kill anyone directly. Also as a general comment after seeing the HBP movie (because it holds true in the book also), I don't believe that Draco was a coward at that point. Draco got in over his head, and tried to handle things as best he could, and while I don't condone his behavior, I did feel some sympathy for him in HBP whereas before that point I didn't consider him to be much more than a bully to the trio.

Given that the mid-to-late 90's saw massive breakthroughs in genetic research including the mapping of DNA and Dolly the cloned sheep, I could see pure-bloods making a semi-plausible argument here.


I don't think the wizarding world understands genetics beyond how it applies to family trees and blood-purity. They don't have electricity, most don't understand the use of objects like telephones, or even how to pronounce the word properly. The wizarding world, in terms of technology, doesn't seem to have progressed past the medival times.
I doubt that there are any wizards, who aren't muggle borns, are even familiar with the term "genetics".

Draco Malfoy is a fascinating character for me. Yes, he is a cruel and selfish jerk-off who has been spoon-fed the stupid "blood purity" philosophy since the cradle, and yet he is capable of compassion and empathy. By this I mean his GENUINE love for his family. There's no denying that Draco is a bad person, but he does have the capacity to love and feel remorse; unlike Harry, he just takes a lot longer to reach that point of emotional awareness.

I think any kid, even if they have been brainwashed from birth, would be hesitant to murder an elderly defenseless man, especially one who still shows courtesy and respect to his would-be murderer. I like to think of Draco as Rowling's equivalent of a Hitler Youth, or one of those poor Muslim kids being used for suicide missions by Al Queda. This makes him not just relevant to the real world (always a good thing when creating a character), but it also allows the reader to see the situation from Malfoy's perspective. I think Rowling was trying to show that even evil people can love and feel compassion, in their own twisted way, and that we should not so quickly jump to the conclusion that Draco is an arrogant prick beyond help. He is a kid just like us, though one of those who bully for gratification.

This makes Draco a much more sympathetic character, despite his monstrous attitude and unforgivable racism. I really admire Rowling for giving depth to even her most token, cliche characters; Malfoy could have been, and indeed was for the first five books, the stereotypical school bully that harasses Harry just because he's mean, period. Instead, Draco has been given his own skewered arc, and for me that is the difference between a hack writer and a master storyteller: that you give depth and layers to even the smallest of your supporting cast.

Once again, thank you J.K. Rowling for this series, which has been a complex, clever, inspiring, relevant, endearing and compelling Rubik's Cube of a saga. It's like a very elaborate soup, filled with tons of ingredients that, in the end, creates something truly incredible. This series is timeless and immortal.

THANK YOU JO.:clap:

Draco Malfoy is a fascinating character for me. Yes, he is a cruel and selfish jerk-off who has been spoon-fed the stupid "blood purity" philosophy since the cradle, and yet he is capable of compassion and empathy. By this I mean his GENUINE love for his family. There's no denying that Draco is a bad person, but he does have the capacity to love and feel remorse; unlike Harry, he just takes a lot longer to reach that point of emotional awareness.

I think any kid, even if they have been brainwashed from birth, would be hesitant to murder an elderly defenseless man, especially one who still shows courtesy and respect to his would-be murderer. I like to think of Draco as Rowling's equivalent of a Hitler Youth, or one of those poor Muslim kids being used for suicide missions by Al Queda. This makes him not just relevant to the real world (always a good thing when creating a character), but it also allows the reader to see the situation from Malfoy's perspective. I think Rowling was trying to show that even evil people can love and feel compassion, in their own twisted way, and that we should not so quickly jump to the conclusion that Draco is an arrogant prick beyond help. He is a kid just like us, though one of those who bully for gratification.

This makes Draco a much more sympathetic character, despite his monstrous attitude and unforgivable racism. I really admire Rowling for giving depth to even her most token, cliche characters; Malfoy could have been, and indeed was for the first five books, the stereotypical school bully that harasses Harry just because he's mean, period. Instead, Draco has been given his own skewered arc, and for me that is the difference between a hack writer and a master storyteller: that you give depth and layers to even the smallest of your supporting cast.

Once again, thank you J.K. Rowling for this series, which has been a complex, clever, inspiring, relevant, endearing and compelling Rubik's Cube of a saga. It's like a very elaborate soup, filled with tons of ingredients that, in the end, creates something truly incredible. This series is timeless and immortal.

THANK YOU JO.:clap:

... I got nuthin. There's really no better way to put it imo. All I have to say is that I'm with this dude.

I don't think the wizarding world understands genetics beyond how it applies to family trees and blood-purity. They don't have electricity, most don't understand the use of objects like telephones, or even how to pronounce the word properly. The wizarding world, in terms of technology, doesn't seem to have progressed past the medival times.

Oh, I wasn't suggesting they did. What I was saying was that the Ministry probably had people working on reasonable ways to explain how Muggle-borns came into being. I could see some Unspeakable or someone from the Muggle-worthy excuses office tying it into modern science discoveries and creating an excuse from that.

They wouldn't need any depth of understanding to do so, just enough to get the propaganda machine going.