Draco Malfoy: Character Analysis

Oh, I wasn't suggesting they did. What I was saying was that the Ministry probably had people working on reasonable ways to explain how Muggle-borns came into being. I could see some Unspeakable or someone from the Muggle-worthy excuses office tying it into modern science discoveries and creating an excuse from that.

They wouldn't need any depth of understanding to do so, just enough to get the propaganda machine going.

That sounds reasonable. Before the Ministry's fall, I am certian that there would be some research into the magical origins of Muggle-Borns. :hmm: it is possible, if not likely that some official was clever enough to find out about genetics in the more advanced (in a way) Muggle society. ;) Good thinking, birdi.

Draco spends most of the first books shadowing either the Trio or Neville - he follows them to Hagrid's hunt and to their dragon exchange, he shows up when Ron is in the hospital wing and hounds Neville.

I think he was upset that none of them thought he was as impressive as he was and wouldn't let him join in on their adventures. Even if Draco loathed him, hanging out with that "savage/servant" Hagrid and having anything at all to do with dragons must have seemed far more interesting than hanging around his common room with Crabbe and Goyle.

Good thought. I think that throughout his first year he couldn't quite decide whether he just plain hated Harry, or whether he still wanted to be his friend. After all, as you say, they were doing more exciting things than him. He was probably still offended (and surprised, I think) by Harry's rejection of his friendship, and I'm inclined to think that deep down (probably so deep he didn't admit it to himself), he may have hoped that somehow he would get to be included in their group. But he kept realizing that he would never get to be their friend, so he told himself that he was too good for them anyway, and bullied them instead.

I still think homesickness did play some part in this -- I just see Draco, at least at that age, as a very sheltered child who had spent all his life safe with his mother. I think he's the type who would be homesick when he went away for the first time. But he's also the kind who would want to leave, and want to be independent. Really, it's sort of the same thing as when he joined the Death Eaters -- he wanted to do it, and was excited about it because it meant he was "grown up." The reality, however, was not what he expected...instead of being a popular student having all kinds of fun with his many friends, he found himself hanging around with a couple of idiots, bullying Gryffindors and wishing he could be having fun like them.

Really not a very good first year experience. I'd get angry and bully people around too.

I never really thought about Draco being homesick, but that is a possibility. I think he found his place at Hogwarts eventually though, he seemed pretty comfortable. But I do feel he had a tendency to prove himself, even as he got older. I feel it was good that he learned from the mistakes of his dad in the end and didn't follow in his footsteps - even if he had to do a lot of hard time along the way. He still had a way to go at the end of the series, but his storyline was a hopeful one, imo.

Draco may be an interesting caracter because of his background situation. He was raised as a bully but he's not totally evil. There might be some good in him.

However, it doesn't mean he's not a selfish coward who will never redeem himself.Draco may be a fairly smart guy, but he doesn't know how to use it for good purposes.In DH, he spent most of the time changing side, turning his back in front of dangerous situations, like a flying leaf. I think he didn't care about whether what he was doing was right or wrong, as long as it would help himself. He didn't have a change of heart. He was just terrified. I think that Ron's comment sums it all pretty well. Draco is a two-faced *******.
He was ready to capture Harry in the RoR, yet didn't make a single move to capture him.Then, even after the trio saved him and his friend, he was pretending to be a death eater. At the end, while everyone was fighting, Draco was hiding in the castle. He seemed quite pathetic.

I do not hate Draco, actually. I was kinda glad that he ended up as a loser, but at the same time, I could sympathise with him. He really had a hard time in the last two books. He was forced to do things that maybe went against his will. But he didn't step up either.He's far from being heroic. Some people think that Draco has a romantic/heroic potential. Personally, I don't think so. But he's a believable caracter.

Draco was brought up to believe that he way better than everyone else, he was forced to this belief by this father.
He never had a chance to be good, and was never strong enough to try.
He is a weak person, brought up to not have to think for himself but to follow certain protocol - be rude, use bully tactics and become the best.
When he had to think for himself and devise a way to kill Dumbledore, he couldn't handle it.

He needed time to stand on his own 2 feet and decide what kind of person he actually wanted to be. I think that he became a better person, but old habits die hard.

However, it doesn't mean he's not a selfish coward who will never redeem himself.Draco may be a fairly smart guy, but he doesn't know how to use it for good purposes.In DH, he spent most of the time changing side, turning his back in front of dangerous situations, like a flying leaf. I think he didn't care about whether what he was doing was right or wrong, as long as it would help himself.

I don't think it is this clear-cut. First, I do not agree Draco is primarily concerned about himself; I think he fears the consequences of his actions for his parents. (I do not consider this a selfish motive. Rowling did not make any of her "good" characters with the possible exception of Snape and Dumbledore, choose actions which endangered their loved ones for the greater good.)

And second, we do see Draco act bravely in a very dangerous situation. Before Harry can rescue him, he has already tried to rescue the helpless Goyle, and he refuses to leave Goyle even in a hopeless-seeming situation when Harry comes to help.

What Draco does not do is act for "the good guys". But he would appear to have a moral compass. Both personal gain and the safety of his parents would have seemed assured if he had capitalized on his opportunity to murder Dumbledore. Yet, he did not.

Yes, maybe. He did show some bravery when he tried to save Goyle. And he was also thinking about his parents. He's probably not that selfish or cowardly. But I'm sure he'll never really redeem himself. I can't see him openly apologize. If Draco had the chance to save Harry's life, maybe he would. But I guess we'll never know.

he was pretending to be a death eater.

If we're going to blame Draco (wandless Draco, let's remember) for telling the Death Eater he's "on their side" to keep from being killed, then I think we also need to blame the Trio for telling Greyback that they were Slytherins. Obviously a Slytherin and a Death Eater are two very different things, but the idea in both cases was the same: somebody helpless and trapped trying to convince their enemies that they're on the same side. I think the Trio chose to say they were Slytherins because they knew that, to the Snatchers, that would be practically synonymous with Death Eater Children.

It's not an admirable act from anybody, but neither is it (in my opinion) a wrong act. Neither Draco nor the Trio had any other way to defend themselves, and their deaths would have helped nobody. If, in the terror of having a wand pointed at them, they frantically tried to deny their allegiances, I don't think any of us really has the right to blame them (unless we've been in a very similar situation). There are times for swearing undying allegiance to your cause, and there are times for just trying to stay alive.

Really, I think it's a shame that that particular line should have ended up being Draco's last spoken line in the series, because I think it tends to leave people with a negative impression I don't think he deserves.

People shouldn't judge on that statement. Even if you are loyal (very loyal :agree:) to a cause, telling somebody that you support a different side doesn't outdo your commitment. Who knows? Such an act could even assist your cause.

I find the idea of a home-sick and jealous of the trio Draco very... cute.

I do agree that it wasn't a crime, and I wouldn't count it as anct of cowardice either, the act of telling the other Death Eater that he was on his side. Specially if he was wandless. Besides, what could he have said?

'Can it stinky Death Eater, I'm in Switzerland'.

Yeah, maybe that would be brave.

[QUOTE=Silversword;5405577]However, it doesn't mean he's not a selfish coward who will never redeem himself.Draco may be a fairly smart guy, but he doesn't know how to use it for good purposes.In DH, he spent most of the time changing side, turning his back in front of dangerous situations, like a flying leaf. I think he didn't care about whether what he was doing was right or wrong, as long as it would help himself. He didn't have a change of heart. He was just terrified. I think that Ron's comment sums it all pretty well. Draco is a two-faced *******.
He was ready to capture Harry in the RoR, yet didn't make a single move to capture him.Then, even after the trio saved him and his friend, he was pretending to be a death eater. At the end, while everyone was fighting, Draco was hiding in the castle. He seemed quite pathetic.


In the Room of Requirement, Crabbe intended to kill Harry, Draco insisted the Dark Lord wanted him alive. Also, he didn't identify the Trio at Malfoy Manor, when Ron and Hermione, at least looked like themselves and Harry, reasonably so. I don't think Draco wanted Voldemort to kill Harry, for whatever reason. Perhaps, despite his dislike of Harry, he didn't want a hand in his death. Perhaps he truly believed the "Chosen One" rumours and hoped Harry would get rid of Voldemort. (At this point, the Dark Lord had the sword of Damocles dangling above the necks of his entire family and they would be safer with him gone). Yes, he was afraid, but can we fault him for being afraid for his family?

I do not hate Draco, actually. I was kinda glad that he ended up as a loser, but at the same time, I could sympathise with him. He really had a hard time in the last two books. He was forced to do things that maybe went against his will. But he didn't step up either.He's far from being heroic. Some people think that Draco has a romantic/heroic potential. Personally, I don't think so. But he's a believable caracter.

I don't know about romantic/heroic potential - perhaps people see him as some kind of traditional moody, gothic tragic hero? At any rate, I agree about the last two books -I think those two years were a huge learning experience for Draco, and brought him to realise he didn't want to be a part of something like the Death Eaters, and didn't want to kill and torture people.


If we're going to blame Draco (wandless Draco, let's remember) for telling the Death Eater he's "on their side" to keep from being killed, then I think we also need to blame the Trio for telling Greyback that they were Slytherins. Obviously a Slytherin and a Death Eater are two very different things, but the idea in both cases was the same: somebody helpless and trapped trying to convince their enemies that they're on the same side. I think the Trio chose to say they were Slytherins because they knew that, to the Snatchers, that would be practically synonymous with Death Eater Children.


Absolutely, Draco was thinking on his feet, as the Trio did when captured. Also, for that Death Eater to have turned on him, he must have doen something to draw his attention - perhaps trying to escape, it seemed as though he were an ordinary student? Draco Malfoy and the Trio all said what they needed to, to live and fight another day. I can't honestly blame any of them for that.

'Can it stinky Death Eater, I'm in Switzerland'.

:lol: :tu:

I think that Draco is a very brave character, and still needs to find himself, and what makes him happy. He wants to do his father good by following in his footsteps.

I think that Draco is a very brave character, and still needs to find himself, and what makes him happy. He wants to do his father good by following in his footsteps.

I'm not sure if brave is the word to describe Draco.... But I agree that in DH and HBP he still needed to find himself. I think that by the epilogue he had altready done just that.

I think that Draco thought being a Death eater would be exiting and fun. I think he imagined running around with other death eaters, feeling powerful, and important. I don't think he realized at first just how dangerous it was. However, he was severely disappointed when he realized the truth. By the time he realized his mistake, though, it was too late. At this point, he was scared, desperate, and weak. By the time anyone offered him help, he felt it was already too late. He needed to do the Dark Lord's bidding, or he would die.

I also think that Draco felt like he didn't have any other options. His father was a Death eater, his father's friends were Death eaters, and his mom, while not actually being a Death eater, believed in Voldemort's cause. Most of his family were Death eaters, and they were all expecting him to follow in their footsteps. Also, Voldemort was angry about Lucius' failure to obtain the Prophecy from the Department of Mysteries. That's why voldemort wanted to give Draco the Dark Mark. Once the Dark Lord wants you to join him, you either do it, or you die.

In the end, he didn't kill Dumbledore. Lord Voldemort never expected him to, though. All Lord Voldemort wanted to do was horrify Draco, and put the entire Malfoy family through hell. He was a victim in all of it. I don't think that Draco was evil. I just think he was just confused and misguided. He reminds me of Professor Snape, only more cowardly. I don't think it was really Draco's fault, either. Unfortunately, he was raised by a bad family, and once you're associated with people like that, it's hard to get away.

I don't think that Malfoy & Harry will ever get along. They may try to ignore their differences, but they will never truly be friends. I think they will probably just go their separate ways, and never see each other again.

I think that Draco will probably get a job at the Ministry of Magic. Maybe even become Minister of Magic some day. I think that Draco will leave his dark past behind him, and try to start a new life.

In my opinion, Draco isn't a bad person. He's just insecure, and wants to fit in somewhere, and feel important.

I think that Draco thought being a Death eater would be exiting and fun. I think he imagined running around with other death eaters, feeling powerful, and important. I don't think he realized at first just how dangerous it was. However, he was severely disappointed when he realized the truth. By the time he realized his mistake, though, it was too late. At this point, he was scared, desperate, and weak. By the time anyone offered him help, he felt it was already too late. He needed to do the Dark Lord's bidding, or he would die.
I also think that Draco felt like he didn't have any other options. His father was a Death eater, his father's friends were Death eaters, and his mom, while not actually being a Death eater, believed in Voldemort's cause. Most of his family were Death eaters, and they were all expecting him to follow in their footsteps. Also, Voldemort was angry about Lucius' failure to obtain the Prophecy from the Department of Mysteries. That's why voldemort wanted to give Draco the Dark Mark. Once the Dark Lord wants you to join him, you either do it, or you die.
In the end, he didn't kill Dumbledore. Lord Voldemort never expected him to, though. All Lord Voldemort wanted to do was horrify Draco, and put the entire Malfoy family through hell. He was a victim in all of it. I don't think that Draco was evil. I just think he was just confused and misguided. He reminds me of Professor Snape, only more cowardly. I don't think it was really Draco's fault, either. Unfortunately, he was raised by a bad family, and once you're associated with people like that, it's hard to get away.
I don't think that Malfoy & Harry will ever get along. They may try to ignore their differences, but they will never truly be friends. I think they will probably just go their separate ways, and never see each other again.
I think that Draco will probably get a job at the Ministry of Magic. Maybe even become Minister of Magic some day. I think that Draco will leave his dark past behind him, and try to start a new life.
In my opinion, Draco isn't a bad person. He's just insecure, and wants to fit in somewhere, and feel important.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I just can't forget Draco in The Room of Requirements, doing his best to kill Harry and Ron. I know you are supposed to hate the sin and not the sinner, and I don't hate Draco as such. I just think he was a contemptible little boy. He genuinely thought he could do anything he wanted to do and it would be ok because Daddy had money and position. I don't really see much change in him. Harry forgave, did Draco repent?

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I just can't forget Draco in The Room of Requirements, doing his best to kill Harry and Ron. I know you are supposed to hate the sin and not the sinner, and I don't hate Draco as such. I just think he was a contemptible little boy. He genuinely thought he could do anything he wanted to do and it would be ok because Daddy had money and position. I don't really see much change in him. Harry forgave, did Draco repent?

Wasn't he ordering Crabbe and Goyle not to kill Harry and Ron?:whistle:

Wasn't he ordering Crabbe and Goyle not to kill Harry and Ron?:whistle:

ditto

Wasn't he ordering Crabbe and Goyle not to kill Harry and Ron?:whistle:

When the situation started to get away from him. He wasn't so nice at the beginning. And what did he stay behind for

When the situation started to get away from him. He wasn't so nice at the beginning. And what did he stay behind for

Well, I cant really remember a single time in he book when he was nioce to anyone. IMO, he was there because he wanted his wand back. But he did say he wanted to take him to LV. u.u

Well, I cant really remember a single time in he book when he was nioce to anyone. IMO, he was there because he wanted his wand back. But he did say he wanted to take him to LV. u.u

I thought dragging the unconscious, defenseless, and oversized Gregory Goyle away from the Fiendfyre was a rather nice action.

I thought dragging the unconscious, defenseless, and oversized Gregory Goyle away from the Fiendfyre was a rather nice action.

I forgot about that time. ^^U I also realizaed i made a mistake and said 'the book'. I meant the books. I can only remember that and saying 'I don't know' in Malfoy Manor. Not so nice, imo.

Well, I cant really remember a single time in he book when he was nioce to anyone. IMO, he was there because he wanted his wand back. But he did say he wanted to take him to LV. u.u

Hmm, I interpertted that situation in a different way, based on Draco's unwillingness to identify the Trio at Malfoy's Manor.
I don't know why he had been there in the first place. But I think Draco was just saying that he wanted to take Harry to Voldemort. I thought it was just an excuse he gave the other two so they wouldn't kill Harry and the others. In other words, he was giving the Trio a chance to escape. Just my interpretion, though.

Hmm, I interpertted that situation in a different way, based on Draco's unwillingness to identify the Trio at Malfoy's Manor.
I don't know why he had been there in the first place. But I think Draco was just saying that he wanted to take Harry to Voldemort. I thought it was just an excuse he gave the other two so they wouldn't kill Harry and the others. In other words, he was giving the Trio a chance to escape. Just my interpretion, though.

That was my interpretation as well. I thought it was pretty obvious.

I thought that he knew that Harry would get out of that mess (because he always does,) and if he turned him in, Harry and Ron would come back and go postal on him. But that's just my interpration on that scene.

Hmm, I interpertted that situation in a different way, based on Draco's unwillingness to identify the Trio at Malfoy's Manor.
I don't know why he had been there in the first place. But I think Draco was just saying that he wanted to take Harry to Voldemort. I thought it was just an excuse he gave the other two so they wouldn't kill Harry and the others. In other words, he was giving the Trio a chance to escape. Just my interpretion, though.

That was my interpretation of the scene too, actually. I was just pointing out that he didn't try to kill Harry.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

At first Draco just comes across as a spoiled brat who's pretty full of himself and his "pure blood." He's a snitch and a pain in the neck, but, his character, like Harry's, develops more and more as the books go on. I didn't see him right from the start as having enough backbone to end up being a Death Eater.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.

In all of the scenes with Lucius and Draco together, Lucius always seems to be maintaining his status over Draco while pushing Draco to be overbearing with others. Lucius always seems to want to make sure Draco doesn't forget Lucius is the boss. No wonder Draco leaps at a chance to get in good with Voldemort. That would seem to put him on a level with his father.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

IMO, it's a little of both: fear for his parents and himself, and, again, a chance to elevate himself in his father's eyes by becoming a Death Eater.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.

Harry had a lot more in common with Ron than Draco. Harry knew what it felt like to be put down, as Draco constatnly did to Ron and the other Weasleys. Harry also was a kind and caring person, and was, I think, put off by Draco's coldness and cruelty.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?

I think he's mean-spirited because of the way he was raised. I think, given a chance, he might have been a boorish snob, but, not a killer.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?

I don't think he had it in him to kill Dumbledore, but, IMO it wasn't regret as much as disappointment with himself that he didn't carry that out. One thing that comes out at the end of the DH is that Draco's mother loved him, and, I think that was the difference. I think that kept him from being a totally evil person.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.

I don't think he would raise his children like he was raised. I think he would raise them to be more accepting of witches and wizards who were not purebloods. I don't see him and Harry or Ron ever becoming good friends.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue? I think he had enough money that he didn't have to work, so he probably just did whatever it is that wealthy wizards do to occupy themselves. I don't think he would have stayed with Pansy because she would have reminded him too much of what he was. I think he would have wanted to put that part of his life behind him and become a "respectable" wizard.

From the Harry thread

We certainly have no evidence Draco has either seen or cast a Crucio before.

Well, it is possible Draco saw a Cruciatus being performed in his fourth year. If fake!Moody used the same lesson plan with the Slytherins as well as the Gryffindors, then Draco would have seen all three Unforgivables being used on the spiders.

Although admittedly, seeing the Cruciatus torture a spider wouldn't give most people a very strong impression of just how horrible the spell is.

All DADA students must have seen the results of crucio in the class that Snape taught and it sounds absolutely unlikely to me that a son of Death Eaters and someone who hang around Death Eaters and Voldemort didn't know anything about the implications of this curse. It was dear aunt Bellatrix's favourite.

Just my opinion.

From the Harry thread



Well, it is possible Draco saw a Cruciatus being performed in his fourth year. If fake!Moody used the same lesson plan with the Slytherins as well as the Gryffindors, then Draco would have seen all three Unforgivables being used on the spiders.

Although admittedly, seeing the Cruciatus torture a spider wouldn't give most people a very strong impression of just how horrible the spell is.

I think Draco knows, and he resorts to this spell because it is Death Eater-ish. Although in earlier years he might have resorted to more schoolboy duelling techniques, I don't think he views battle with Harry in that manner anymore. Draco believes Harry is responsible for his father being in prison, and the Ministry debacle has also landed Lucius in trouble with Voldemort. Harry has also proven himself in battle against Death Eaters, and I think Draco is reacting to that. Draco is acting as a Death Eater agent within the school by plotting to bring in more Death Eaters and murder Dumbledore, and he has already nearly killed two students. So I think he panicks when Harry walks in on him, and attacks as if he is a Death Eater cornered.

All DADA students must have seen the results of crucio in the class that Snape taught and it sounds absolutely unlikely to me that a son of Death Eaters and someone who hang around Death Eaters and Voldemort didn't know anything about the implications of this curse. It was dear aunt Bellatrix's favourite.

Just my opinion.

That's a good point about Auntie Bellatrix. Draco learned Occlumency from her, presummably, so it seems he was spending some time with her. Could she have mentioned having had her favorite spell turned against her by Harry Potter in the Ministry? Maybe revenge also fueled Draco's choice of spell.

We certainly have no evidence Draco has either seen or cast a Crucio before.

I doubt Bellatrix only taught him Occlumency. She likely taught him the Unforgivables as well as part of his Death Eater training. Draco likely had to practice these, probably not on people but maybe bugs/animals/house-elves.

He wasn't going to pretend to be a Death Eater, he was going to be one, he'd have to know how to use these spells. Especially if he was expected to murder Dumbledore. And while I don't think Bellatrix had any great affection for her nephew, she would see it as her duty to make certain he is trained and ready to serve.

Hmm, I interpertted that situation in a different way, based on Draco's unwillingness to identify the Trio at Malfoy's Manor.
I don't know why he had been there in the first place. But I think Draco was just saying that he wanted to take Harry to Voldemort. I thought it was just an excuse he gave the other two so they wouldn't kill Harry and the others. In other words, he was giving the Trio a chance to escape. Just my interpretion, though.

I, for one, am not very sure about Draco caring about Harry getting killed or not.

But, yes I do agree that Draco did not want the death of harry to be caused by his (Draco's) actions. Thats why the rather 'indifferent' attitude of Draco when he confronts the trio first at malfoy Manor and especially at the RoR.

But it's not like that he went out of his way to help them either. Especially at the RoR, if he had really wanted to help the trio he could have easily overpowered Goyle. But he did not do that.

Having said that, I also am of the opinion that Draco acted in such a way (not helping trio directly) so that his parents do not suffer. Not a bad thing...but you have to compare this with the innocent lives that were at stake...So this, IMO, makes Draco a..well ..err..selfish and a coward...(He was of age...he could have made his own choices...he had the choice to make-up like Snape.....)

Just my 2 cents.

I doubt Bellatrix only taught him Occlumency. She likely taught him the Unforgivables as well as part of his Death Eater training. Draco likely had to practice these, probably not on people but maybe bugs/animals/house-elves.

He wasn't going to pretend to be a Death Eater, he was going to be one, he'd have to know how to use these spells. Especially if he was expected to murder Dumbledore. And while I don't think Bellatrix had any great affection for her nephew, she would see it as her duty to make certain he is trained and ready to serve.

I would tend to agree with this. I imagine that Bellatrix trained him in the use of the Unforgivables. He certainly needed to know how to cast an Avada Kedavra if he was going to kill Dumbledore. We know that he knew how to cast an Imperius, since he used it successfully on Madam Rosmerta. It is reasonable to assume that he knew how to cast a Cruciatus, given that it's his dear Aunt's favorite curse and he knew other Unforgivables.

What I find interesting about Draco is that he really was not cut out to be a Death Eater, regardless of how much he wanted to be (and no matter how much training he got from his aunt). He failed to kill Dumbledore. And at Malfoy Manor he never seemed to have the stomach for torture. After he gets "in," he mostly acts like he just wants "out."

I would tend to agree with this. I imagine that Bellatrix trained him in the use of the Unforgivables. He certainly needed to know how to cast an Avada Kedavra if he was going to kill Dumbledore. We know that he knew how to cast an Imperius, since he used it successfully on Madam Rosmerta. It is reasonable to assume that he knew how to cast a Cruciatus, given that it's his dear Aunt's favorite curse and he knew other Unforgivables.

What I find interesting about Draco is that he really was not cut out to be a Death Eater, regardless of how much he wanted to be (and no matter how much training he got from his aunt). He failed to kill Dumbledore. And at Malfoy Manor he never seemed to have the stomach for torture. After he gets "in," he mostly acts like he just wants "out."

Draco is the classic case of being careful what you wish for. You just might get it.

Draco is the classic case of being careful what you wish for. You just might get it.

Very well said, I never thought about it like that :lol:.

Draco is the classic case of being careful what you wish for. You just might get it.

:agree: Well, Eliza, I see we're on the same page this time! :tu:

:agree: Well, Eliza, I see we're on the same page this time! :tu:

CC, I really don't like disagreeing with you at all. I have somewhat less sympathy for Draco, but like Harry I am not without some. He found himself in a very sticky situation. A lot of that stemmed from his upbringing and his parents actions. What I do not like is his actions one year later in the battle. It seems to me he is still tryinf to have his cake and eat it too.

Hmm, I interpertted that situation in a different way, based on Draco's unwillingness to identify the Trio at Malfoy's Manor.
I don't know why he had been there in the first place. But I think Draco was just saying that he wanted to take Harry to Voldemort. I thought it was just an excuse he gave the other two so they wouldn't kill Harry and the others. In other words, he was giving the Trio a chance to escape. Just my interpretion, though.

I honestly never saw it that way, but I understand what you mean. I always just figured Draco was trying to keep Voldemort from killing him and his parents by "recapturing" Harry. Even after when he's running out of the school he's shouting to the Death Eaters that he's one of them so they don't kill him, yet when Harry stuns one and saves Draco, he's looking around trying to see who saved him from one of his supposed companions. Draco was always hard for me to understand in these books.

I honestly never saw it that way, but I understand what you mean. I always just figured Draco was trying to keep Voldemort from killing him and his parents by "recapturing" Harry. Even after when he's running out of the school he's shouting to the Death Eaters that he's one of them so they don't kill him, yet when Harry stuns one and saves Draco, he's looking around trying to see who saved him from one of his supposed companions. Draco was always hard for me to understand in these books.

It makes sense that he would say he's one of the Death Eaters, he just wants to live.

CC, I really don't like disagreeing with you at all.

Then why do you do it so often? :lol: ;) :yuhup:

I have somewhat less sympathy for Draco, but like Harry I am not without some. He found himself in a very sticky situation. A lot of that stemmed from his upbringing and his parents actions. What I do not like is his actions one year later in the battle. It seems to me he is still tryinf to have his cake and eat it too.

Well, let me tell you a secret. I probably have less sympathy for Draco than you think I have. I had no sympathy at all for him pre-HBP.

In HBP, though (when he's at his most dangerous!), I began to see him as a full-fledged human being, not just a caricature of a Jr. Death Eater. I saw his mother's love for him. I saw him fall apart emotionally. I saw Harry nearly kill him and react with horror. I saw him try to kill Dumbledore. I saw that he really loved his family (didn't just use the Malfoy name for its prestige) and saw him feel that he had no choices because Voldemort had threatened to kill his whole family. I saw him lower his wand. I saw him fail to kill Dumbledore. I saw Dumbledore's love for him and saw that Dumbledore clearly believed that Draco was worth saving.

If Dumbledore cared that much about Draco, how could I not care about him too? I began to want to see him redeemed. I was horrified by what Draco and his family were put through when Voldemort took over Malfoy Manor. (Careful what you wish for - for the whole family, I think!). I cheered him on when he refused to identify Harry at Malfoy Manor. I groaned when he went into the RoR and when he was arguing with the Death Eaters that he was on their side. But I was happy when his parents left the battle and were reunited with their son.

I've been on a long journey with Draco (and the Malfoys). I don't believe he (or they) are admirable - certainly not in the way that Harry is admirable. And I'm not certain he is redeemed - certainly not to the extent that Snape is redeemed. But I was happy in the end to find that Draco was not really as bad as he thought he wanted to be. And to that extent, yes, I guess I do have sympathy for Draco.

ccollinsmith;5496432]Then why do you do it so often? :lol: ;) :yuhup:

CC, I'm as soft as butter that's been left on a hot windowsill.

Well, let me tell you a secret. I probably have less sympathy for Draco than you think I have. I had no sympathy at all for him pre-HBP.

In HBP, though (when he's at his most dangerous!), I began to see him as a full-fledged human being, not just a caricature of a Jr. Death Eater. I saw his mother's love for him. I saw him fall apart emotionally. I saw Harry nearly kill him and react with horror. I saw him try to kill Dumbledore. I saw that he really loved his family (didn't just use the Malfoy name for its prestige) and saw him feel that he had no choices because Voldemort had threatened to kill his whole family. I saw him lower his wand. I saw him fail to kill Dumbledore. I saw Dumbledore's love for him and saw that Dumbledore clearly believed that Draco was worth saving.

If Dumbledore cared that much about Draco, how could I not care about him too? I began to want to see him redeemed. I was horrified by what Draco and his family were put through when Voldemort took over Malfoy Manor. (Careful what you wish for - for the whole family, I think!). I cheered him on when he refused to identify Harry at Malfoy Manor. I groaned when he went into the RoR and when he was arguing with the Death Eaters that he was on their side. But I was happy when his parents left the battle and were reunited with their son.

I've been on a long journey with the Draco (and the Malfoys). I don't believe he (or they) are admirable - certainly not in the way that Harry is admirable. And I'm not certain he is redeemed - at least not to the extent that Snape is redeemed. But I was happy in the end to find that Draco was not really as bad as he thought he wanted to be. And to that extent, yes, I guess I do have sympathy for Draco.

I sort of feel the same way. Certain things get me about Draco. I hate his prejudice. His inf actuation with Dark Arts, his sneakiness with Harry and his smug self-satisfaction drives me up the wall, but that I can bear. What I really couldn't forgive in his portrayal in HBP, was his down right dangerous carelessness in the two attempts he made on DD. The poisoned mead and necklace attempts were criminal. He does real damage in that book and I have to say that his fudging on the identifying of Harry at the Manor does not, IMO compensate.

That's it for tonight. Bad headache.

What I really couldn't forgive in his portrayal in HBP, was his down right dangerous carelessness in the two attempts he made on DD. The poisoned mead and necklace attempts were criminal. He does real damage in that book and I have to say that his fudging on the identifying of Harry at the Manor does not, IMO compensate.

Well, of course they're criminal. :) In fact, Dumbledore fully anticipated that a kid in as terrifying a predicament as Draco would make dangerously careless attempts on him:


Scowling, Snape said, “The Dark Lord does not expect Draco to succeed. This is merely punishment for Lucius’s recent failures. Slow torture for Draco’s parents, while they watch him fail and pay the price.”

“In short, the boy has had a death sentence pronounced upon him as surely as I have,” said Dumbledore.

[snip]

"Now then. Your first priority will be to discover what Draco is up to. A frightened teenage boy is a danger to others as well as to himself. Offer him help and guidance, he ought to accept, he likes you ---“

“---much less since his father has lost favor. Draco blames me, he thinks I have usurped Lucius’s position.”

“All the same, try. I am concerned less for myself than for accidental victims of whatever schemes might occur to the boy."
What I find interesting is that Dumbledore does not consider Draco's recklessness extraordinary for a boy operating under what he terms a "death sentence." And as Draco clarifies in the Astronomy Tower, it's not merely a death sentence for him but for his whole family. Despite Draco's recklessness, and the two unintended victims, Dumbledore still cares about Draco and does not consider his actions unforgivable - as we see in his own extraordinary attempt to save Draco from being forced to kill him.

Given that love and forgiveness are central themes in the series (Harry not only becomes Master of Death but master of forgiveness), far be it from me to pronounce Draco's recklessness and dangerously careless actions unforgivable. :) Personally, I think compassion and forgiveness are warranted in circumstances as extreme as the ones Draco is operating under.

That's it for tonight. Bad headache.

Take care of your headache. :)

Although admittedly, seeing the Cruciatus torture a spider wouldn't give most people a very strong impression of just how horrible the spell is.

Yes. I meant, seen it performed on a human being.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?
Most likely. At least Rowling was implying that he would sway that way regardless. It was clear from the beginning that Draco had the Pureblood prejudice. It was also clear that he was swayed by his family.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.
Yes. Lucius was actually very concerned with his own status and the status of his family. This led to various foolhardy things he did. Like the diary thing to displace Arthur Weasley in the eyes of the Ministry. I think Lucius would have pressured Draco to be the best student. He was after all, very competitive with Harry and even Hermione. Hermione was the best in the year and she was muggle-born, this must have really eaten at Draco. Harry made Seeker at first year! Draco seethed with envy, to the point where the following year, he had his father buy the Slytherin team the best new brooms around to win him a spot on the team. He also managed to scrape an O in Potions, otherwise he wouldnt have been in the class in HBP.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?
Well, in the first few books, its pretty much bravado. He wanted to show off his status as a Pureblood. In the HBP, he was driven by fear. His father was sacked and thrown into Azkaban. He had lost the status he had for so long. Voldemort ordered Draco to do the deed in HBP. He felt that he had no choice but to do it. He didnt want to. That was obvious since he even lowered his wand when Dumbledore was talking to him. Draco blundered throughout the year. This was showing his heart wasnt in it. Dumbledore pointed this out. Draco was afraid his family would be cast out or worse, killed if he didnt do the deed. It was fear that made him ask Bellatrix for Occlemency lessons. He didnt want anyone to know how terrified he was about what he had to do. He obeyed Voldemort in DH because of the fear.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.
Yes. Thats what those who feel they have status believe. People are supposed to be impressed with that amount of status. When someone isnt, they dont know what to say or think. He also learned in the end, that status means little in certain circumstances. The Weasleys had not a lot of social status compared to his own family's, but they were more respected by many because they fought and did what they believed in, not just trying to save face.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?
In the beginning he was just plain mean. He didnt understand how other people thought and worked. He thought by bullying people, he could get what he wanted. He learned by the 6th book that, that doesnt work. In fact, it can often make things worse. Draco didnt really understand himself much. He found himself weeping in the bathroom and didnt know or understand exactly why he was feeling the way he was. It wasnt until DH did he realize just the gravity of the situation.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?
No i dont think so. He didnt want to kill Dumbledore when it came right down to it. At first, he wanted to prove to the Death Eaters and to himself that his family werent failures. But when he faced Dumbledore, all of that went out the window. He was deliberately stalling because he knew he couldnt do it himself. As for the DH events, yeah i think did regret not taking Dumbledore's suggestion of hiding. However, by not hiding, he showed a bit of courage, something he didnt really seem to have at all. Im sure Narcissa urged him to continue until it was over.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.
I think so. In the Epilogue, Draco acknowledged them in very civil manner. Nodding to them. They earned his (albeit grudging) respect.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?
It isnt clear who his wife is. She might be. I think Draco would have to work very hard indeed to get in at the Ministry, which i think he did just that. Once the Malfoy name was cleared, he was able to go in and work for the Ministry. What he did, is unknown to me.

It isnt clear who his wife is. She might be.

His wife is Asteria Greengrass. JKR mentioned it in an interview.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

I don't know. I never imagined that Draco would turn out to be a Death Eater because he seemed all talk and I didn't think he was actually that evil. Even when he does become a Death Eater, we see that it is not really by choice and he does not go through with his task.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.


That's not a question :err:


3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

I think he rarely made his own choices. He seems to be trying to live up to his father most of the time. And when he finally stops doing that we see that he has been given an impossible task by Voldemort. He's mostly operating on fear.


4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.

Also not a question :whistle:. But, I think he'd learn that that's how you make friends and it is possible Harry was the first person to challenge that notion. Also, I get the feeling that Draco was a very sheltered boy so he may not have had opportunities to interact with people different from him before he came to Hogwarts.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?

He's both. He's also funny. There's no doubt he's mean. All that stuff he says in OotP when he's a prefect is just awful. But at the same time, people think that because he's a little jerk and his dad is big bad Lucius Malfoy and he's a Slytherin he can't have any real problems. This is evident when Harry is shocked to find Malfoy crying in the bathroom. He can't imagine that Draco's life isn't perfect. Dumbledore certainly understood him, but I;m not sure if many others did.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort.
Of course he does. He can't just quit.

Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?

I think he's happy he did not kill DUmbledore so he does not have that on his conscience for the rest of his life. I don't think he has any choices that are worth regretting in DH. He only has so much freedom because Voldemort and Death Eaters are constantly breathing down his neck. We see him in Malfoy Manor trying not to identify the trio, we see him in the Room of Requirement trying to stop Crabbe and Goyle from killing Harry so he can take him to Voldemort (which I think was an excuse to give the trio a chance to escape).

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.

What life debt?


8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession?

I think he worked for the Ministry behind the scenes, similar to his father.

Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?

I don't think so. I can't imagine them being together after DH. I imagine he married some other pureblood girl.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater? No. He was not shown to be a character entirely heartless or sadistic, but rather spoiled, narrow-minded, and accustomed to getting everything his way. And as Sirius said, the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters. JKR certainly planted the seeds that would ensure he and Harry could never form a friendship, though.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son. :relax:Um...I'm not quite sure how to respond to this. Well, I suppose I agree. He is certainly a demanding father, but we shouldn't take him to be one who does not care for or love his son, because there is nothing to show that. We must remember that in the Battle of Hogwarts, he cared nothing for the actual battle and only wanted to find Draco. Being demanding and critical, he probably only wanted the best for his son.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado? By DH, I think he had grown up very much. He had made the choice that he didn't hate Harry enough to want him to be handed over to Voldemort (if he gains nothing himself, that is), probably because Draco was now part of Voldemort's circle and knew what he was like. Some of his actions were out of fear (as were the actions of absolutely everyone during Voldemort's reign of terror), but he was certainly capable of acting on his own accord by then.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts. Another non-question? Maybe not dumbfounded, but very displeased.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean? Draco Malfoy is doubtlessly a mean person. However, he is also certainly misunderstood by many people, but many people also did understand how he felt (Dumbledore, Voldemort, etc.) I think "afraid" would be a better word.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH? I think he was rather relieved that Snape killed Dumbledore for him, and I also think that he knew he would never have been able to bring himself to do it. He can also continue with a clean conscience and a clean record after the war. I don't think he regrets his choices in DH to not let the DE hand the trio to Voldemort, nor did he regret his decision to stop Crabbe and Goyle from killing them. I don't think he actually wanted them dead, but he was kind of pushed into the Death Eater's position and was probably excited at first, but couldn't back down once he started growing up, understanding everything, and making his own decisions.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future? There is no life debt, only implicit armistice.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue? 1.)He marries Astoria Greengrass. 2.)I don't think he would have chosen to marry Pansy anyways. She more of his follower than a potential wife, and if he had and romantic interest in her, he could have easily started dating her in their Hogwarts years, as I'm sure she wouldn't have minded too much. Since Malfoy and Pansy dating were not mentioned in canon, I will assume that they did not date.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

I don’t think so. It was set up that he was going to be a pain in the butt and a spoiled brat, but not that he would join the Death Eaters, even if it was implied that he would follow his parents’ ideals.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.

Not sure how to approach this, but while most of this is true, I’ll argue against the idea that Lucius is demanding. If anything, Draco’s parents seem like very loving parents. For instance, they got Hagrid arrested and Buckbeak sentenced to death when Draco broke his arm. Even if Draco provoked the animal and his parents hate the Hogwarts administration (even though they’re patrons), they acted out of love veiled in an attempt to throw their weight around.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

Draco isn’t making choices of his own volition. He was doing what he felt was expected of him. He’s grown up with the idea that he’s better, so he acts like it. He’s grown up with the idea of Death Eaters and Voldemort being right. He knows that everyone else knows that his family is rich and powerful. If he was acting of his own volition, he would’ve acted against his family and perception. When he becomes a Death Eater, that’s because he’s following the pattern that’s been laid out for him. Now part of him joining is probably because he felt it was the correct thing to do for someone like him, but fear is a big part because Voldemort is intimidating and would kill him and his family.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.

Again, I’m not really sure how to approach this since it’s true. But I’ll add that he’s not only dumbfounded, but he’s also shocked that Harry doesn’t a) understand why Voldemort and his father are important and b) isn’t impressed and doesn’t immediately want to be friends with him. He doesn’t understand why he’s been rebuffed.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?

I’d vote for misunderstood. He comes from a different background than the The Trio, so we aren’t going to know much about him because we’re from The Trio’s POV. He’s been taught wrongly by his parents, and his bubble bursts when the War starts and he has to take sides. He misunderstood and confused.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?

He’s only continuing to serve Voldemort because he’s scared. Most would say that he’s a coward, but really, if you were in his situation, you might be too scared to get out of the situation, too, and you probably wouldn’t think of yourself as a coward (at least in the moment of the situation). But anyway, he doesn’t regret not killing Dumbledore because he didn’t want to kill him in the first place.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.

I think he would treat them with respect, surely (shown in the epilogue). Harry, Ron, and Hermione saved his life, and that proved to him that everything he thought was wrong. I think he and his family probably started thinking a lot after the War, and, if we got to see what happened to him during the years after Hogwarts, I think he would have changed considerably.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?

Like I said, I think he did a lot of thinking. I would like to think that he changed for the better, perhaps tried to make amends somehow by being a patron to Hogwarts or some good cause or something. In any case, I think he would’ve become more mature. He probably would work for the Ministry, too, perhaps in an area like the Aurors or something due to what he learned from the War. And since we’ve heard from JKR, Astoria’s the wife.

If anyone's interested, I've written a lot about Draco and Viktor, kind of like what these character analyses are like. You can read them here:
The Worth of Draco Malfoy (http://moniqueblog.net/?page_id=2235)
The Worth of Viktor Krum (http://moniqueblog.net/?page_id=2574)

Well... I've just remembered this quote from Maybe-Joleisaa, in her fic Almost like Magic (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5295394/1/Almost_Like_Magic). I think it fits draco perfectly:

He never meant to be any trouble, all he ever wanted to be was special, applauded, admired, and gloriously envied for all the wrong things.

He also managed to scrape an O in Potions, otherwise he wouldnt have been in the class in HBP.


Didn't Slughorn change the rules so more people could be let into the class as neither Ron or Harry got a O in potions and both were in the class in HBP. Also Draco had the advantage of having a teacher in the first 5 years who would actually help him improve while the same teacher didn't help Harry, Ron and Hermione anywhere near as much.

I never got the impression that Draco Malfoy was that smart but for some reason some people seem to think he was one of the smartest students in the year (especially in fan fiction). He was certainly smarter than his 2 'friends' but i never got the impression he was smarter than Harry or Ron and he certainly wasn't anywhere near as smart as Hermione.

Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

He truly seems to enjoy all the mean things that he was doing. He does like bullying. But in the end I would say he and his family is being bullied by the Biggest Bully: Voldemort.

I think in the end he didn't want to choose to do those things anymore. A little bit like Regulus Black, but it was a bit late for him. So many times when one gets into a mess like this, it's not easy to get out.

Winky45:sigh:

Didn't Slughorn change the rules so more people could be let into the class as neither Ron or Harry got a O in potions and both were in the class in HBP.

Teachers set their entry requirements for their own class - Slughorn simply had lower requirements that Snape.

I never got the impression that Draco Malfoy was that smart but for some reason some people seem to think he was one of the smartest students in the year (especially in fan fiction). He was certainly smarter than his 2 'friends' but i never got the impression he was smarter than Harry or Ron and he certainly wasn't anywhere near as smart as Hermione.

Well from the way Draco's father chastises him in CoS (something about being ashamed that he let a muggleborn beat him in every exam) gave me the impression that he came second after Hermione. If a lot of students had received better mark than him I don't see why either Draco or his father would have singled out Hermione. This makes Draco academically very smart and ahead of Harry & Ron who (other than in the DADA O.W.L's) don't seem to be particularly high fliers academically

I never got the impression that Draco Malfoy was that smart but for some reason some people seem to think he was one of the smartest students in the year (especially in fan fiction). He was certainly smarter than his 2 'friends' but i never got the impression he was smarter than Harry or Ron and he certainly wasn't anywhere near as smart as Hermione.
What? He seems to do relatively well in school, if not better than the rest of his House! Draco came prepared for Potions in HBP, meaning he must have expected Snape to return who had said he wouldnt take anyone with an OWL below O. There were only small number of students in Slughorn's class. Snape must have given Draco an O, bias or otherwise.

Well from the way Draco's father chastises him in CoS (something about being ashamed that he let a muggleborn beat him in every exam) gave me the impression that he came second after Hermione. If a lot of students had received better mark than him I don't see why either Draco or his father would have singled out Hermione. This makes Draco academically very smart and ahead of Harry & Ron who (other than in the DADA O.W.L's) don't seem to be particularly high fliers academically
Basically that was my impression. Draco didnt seem to be too skilled at DADA but in alot of other areas, he was probably a bit better than Harry and Ron.

Well from the way Draco's father chastises him in CoS (something about being ashamed that he let a muggleborn beat him in every exam) gave me the impression that he came second after Hermione. If a lot of students had received better mark than him I don't see why either Draco or his father would have singled out Hermione. This makes Draco academically very smart and ahead of Harry & Ron who (other than in the DADA O.W.L's) don't seem to be particularly high fliers academically

I could be wrong but i don't think that scene was in the books. I know Draco's father made a comment about Hermione in the movie but i don't think it happened in the books.

No, it's in the books:

"It's not my fault," retorted Draco. "The teachers all have favorites, that Hermione Granger -"

"I would have thought you'd be ashamed that a girl of no wizard family beat you in every exam," snapped Mr. Malfoy.

"Ha!" said Harry under his breath, pleased to see Draco looking both abashed and angry.

No, it's in the books:

Thats interesting (as i was clearly wrong) but it still doesn't mean Malfoy was a good student just that Hermione Granger was the benchmark (which she was). I remember several times in potions Harry and Ron getting marked down a lot for making a bad potion and then Snape going over to Draco's potion and given him full marks even though to Harry it didn't look any better than his or Ron's efforts.

What? He seems to do relatively well in school, if not better than the rest of his House! Draco came prepared for Potions in HBP, meaning he must have expected Snape to return who had said he wouldnt take anyone with an OWL below O. There were only small number of students in Slughorn's class. Snape must have given Draco an O, bias or otherwise.

Snape was not responsible for grading the OWL examinations. The OWL's were graded by external examiners.


I could be wrong but i don't think that scene was in the books. I know Draco's father made a comment about Hermione in the movie but i don't think it happened in the books.

Lucius does berate Draco for letting Hermione get better grades.:)

'Though if his school marks don't pick up,' said Mr Malfoy more coldly still. 'That may indeed be all he is fit for.'
'It's not my fault,' retorted Draco. 'The teachers all have favourites, that Hermione Granger -'
'I would have thought you'd be ashamed that a girl of no wizard family beat you in every exam,' snapped Mr Malfoy. (CoS, At Flourish and Blotts)

I may be forgetting a particular event, but all I can remember is when Harry is marked down, but Crabbe or Goyle get away with potions that explode or have the consistency of half-dried cement. I can't recall an incident where Draco makes a bad or mediocre potion. Are you thinking of a particular part in the books that I'm not remembering? :hmm:

I may be forgetting a particular event, but all I can remember is when Harry is marked down, but Crabbe or Goyle get away with potions that explode or have the consistency of half-dried cement. I can't recall an incident where Draco makes a bad or mediocre potion. Are you thinking of a particular part in the books that I'm not remembering? :hmm:

To be honest i can't recall exactly (as it has been a while since i read the books) but i just seem remember Snape showing blatant favourtism to Malfoy over Harry and Ron and his potions getting marked higher simply because Snape hated Harry and his friends.

Do you recall a few scenes in the books where it specifically said that Draco's potions were better than the potion that Harry and Ron made?

Not specifically, because Harry doesn't remark on Draco's potions..which is in itself a good sign. A potion that draws attention to itself is often a bad one. :lol:

I have a few other ideas, but a lot of it is dependent on Snape's character and his credibility as an instructor, which is often argued and would be off-topic on this thread. :hmm:

Not specifically, because Harry doesn't remark on Draco's potions..which is in itself a good sign. A potion that draws attention to itself is often a bad one. :lol:

I have a few other ideas, but a lot of it is dependent on Snape's character and his credibility as an instructor, which is often argued and would be off-topic on this thread. :hmm:

You can't really trust what Snape says as he was extremely bias but Harry's observations would be fine.

Other than that one comment in CoS (which could be interpreted in several different ways) i just don't recall Malfoy ever being described as a particularly good student.

To be honest i can't recall exactly (as it has been a while since i read the books) but i just seem remember Snape showing blatant favourtism to Malfoy over Harry and Ron and his potions getting marked higher simply because Snape hated Harry and his friends.

Do you recall a few scenes in the books where it specifically said that Draco's potions were better than the potion that Harry and Ron made?

As for favoring Harry and his friends, Hermione receives higher marks in Potions than Draco... indicating that the "favoritism" is merely superficial.

Draco is shown throughout the series, btw, as being an excellent student in pretty much all of his classes - never mind that he's a prat. He tends to be a better student overall than everybody else in his class except for Hermione.

Harry and Ron, for the most part, get by only because Hermione prods them on and helps them with their homework and pesters them into studying. The exception is DADA, in which Harry has learned to excel because he sees DADA as necessary for survival.

As for favoring Harry and his friends, Hermione receives higher marks in Potions than Draco... indicating that the "favoritism" is merely superficial.


Even snape couldn't ignore Hermione's perfect potions.



Draco is shown throughout the series, btw, as being an excellent student in pretty much all of his classes - never mind that he's a prat. He tends to be a better student overall than everybody else in his class except for Hermione.


Can you provide examples of this?



Harry and Ron, for the most part, get by only because Hermione prods them on and helps them with their homework and pesters them into studying. The exception is DADA, in which Harry has learned to excel because he sees DADA as necessary for survival.

I think its fairly safe to say that Droco has a lot of tutors for classes like potions where he can still practice while at home. I could Lucius paying a fortune for private tutors during the breaks in school.

Snape was not responsible for grading the OWL examinations. The OWL's were graded by external examiners.
Ahh thats right. My mistake. But still, if Draco received an O by the examiners, he must have been pretty good at it.

Ahh thats right. My mistake. But still, if Draco received an O by the examiners, he must have been pretty good at it.

Or its quite possible Malfoy knew ahead of time as Snape could have told him. Just because Harry didn't know doesn't mean Malfoy didn't know that Snape was no longer the Potions master.

Even snape couldn't ignore Hermione's perfect potions.

This is an assertion without backing from canon. However, since Snape is not the subject of this thread...

Or its quite possible Malfoy knew ahead of time as Snape could have told him. Just because Harry didn't know doesn't mean Malfoy didn't know that Snape was no longer the Potions master.

Given the relationship between Snape and Draco by the time of HBP, it is highly unlikely that they had any conversations prior to the start of term. Draco considered Snape an usurper of Lucius' position with Voldemort, remember, when Lucius was sent to to Azkaban. Draco did not want to have anything to do with Snape.

Can you provide examples of this?

Actually, what I'd like to ask is what are the examples from canon of Draco not being a good student?... since I believe that is the assertion that originated this discussion.

In canon, Draco is shown to have had marks that were apparently exceeded only by Hermione's in first year. Is there a pre-OWL drop in performance indicated in the text?

That said, I'm not a Draco fan. I'm only interested in what is revealed in the text about the character.

ETA:

I think its fairly safe to say that Droco has a lot of tutors for classes like potions where he can still practice while at home. I could Lucius paying a fortune for private tutors during the breaks in school.

Interesting assertion. But "fairly safe to say"? So far as I know, there's no evidence anywhere in the text to indicate that Draco ever received special tutoring.

Less Snape, more Draco, please. This isn't a place to discuss whether or not Snape graded fairly.

It's possible Draco wasn't second to Hermione, that Hermione was at the top of her class and someone like Ernie Macmillan was second and Padma Patil third and Lucius ignored those two because they're pure-bloods and he really cared that Draco was being beat by a muggle-born.

But one can also read that Draco was second. He might not have been smarter than Harry or Ron and certainly wasn't a hard work but he may have been more ambitious.

I don't see how one can say Draco wasn't smarter than Harry and Ron, especially Ron whose academic inferiority is routinely shown in the books. I do think that Draco was smart. He comes from a good family which means they could afford to spend lots of money on his education. Also, he comes from some pretty talented people. For one, his father is a high ranking Death Eater which leads me to believe he was himself talented. I think he would have taught Draco and expected him to excell academically. His aunt, one of the most skilled wizards in the books IMO, taught him occlumency which is something that is not taught at school and that Harry could not master.

And if Lucius compares Draco to Hermione, that leads me to believe that grades were important. People who make a big deal about grades tend to have good grades.


ETA: I also have to consider that Draco is in Slytherin. In "The Prince's Tale" Snape called Slytherin "brainy" so it must have had a reputation for academic achievement. We see smart and talented people come from this house: Snape, Voldemort, Bellatrix, Regulus (who outsmarted Voldemort), etc.

And if Lucius compares Draco to Hermione, that leads me to believe that grades were important. People who make a big deal about grades tend to have good grades.

We also have Slughorn talking about how brainy the Black Family was and how he wanted all of them, including Sirius. Draco's Mom was a Black - therefore we can probably assume that she was smart and that Draco might have inherited his brains from her.

If Draco had been tutored at home or at school, then why did he laugh at the idea of "Remedial Potions" in OotP? He didn't say that just to make fun of Harry - he was just surprised at the very idea of it. That probably tells us that he didn't need any special help in potions, nor in anything else. JMO I always got the impression that Draco was a good student.

You can't really trust what Snape says as he was extremely bias but Harry's observations would be fine.

Ok leaving aside the Snape bit of this statement I really don't see where the idea that Harry's assessment of either Draco's or Crabbe & Goyle's potion making is 'fine' comes from.

We know Harry has a big bias against all three of them so how is his testomony any better than any other character who might have a bias??? I think the fact that he doesn't comment negatively on Draco's performance is a clear indicator that Draco's abilities aren't shabby to say the least but I think that’s probably the most we can infer from Harry’s statements.


I think its fairly safe to say that Droco has a lot of tutors for classes like potions where he can still practice while at home. I could Lucius paying a fortune for private tutors during the breaks in school.

as has already been pointed out there is o cannon one way or the other so it can only be seen as conjecture - however I do concede that it is a plausable hypothesis.

That said all the tutoring in the world won't make that much difference - a grade improvement maybe but it wouldn't turn an awful student into one of the best in his year. Personally I don't understand why the idea that Draco is academically bright is troublesome or contentious – even a genius can make mistakes & bad decisions, have a change of heart, get stuck between a rock & an hard place & I think its what happens to Draco and how he deals with it that is the important thing in terms of the story jmho. :)

Personally I don't understand why the idea that Draco is academically bright is troublesome or contentious – even a genius can make mistakes & bad decisions, have a change of heart, get stuck between a rock & an hard place & I think its what happens to Draco and how he deals with it that is the important thing in terms of the story jmho. :)

I agree. Take Dumbledore for example. He was extremely smart (according to everyone) yet he wanted to take over the world!

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?
No i think she was trying to make us see him from harry's point of view which is that he's evil. Just like she did with snape so that we hate him without doubt while harry hates him but as soon as harry sees him as questioning voldemort we then become on his side.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.
I think this is what made harry hate him in the first few books because he was the complete opposite of harry. he grew up pampered with high up parents who worshipped the dark arts. He wants to impress people he wants to be the top of the food chain and he has to work for his status by undermining others. whereas harry grew up with no love and his parents hated the dark arts. He is already somebody and doesn't enjoy the fame he has. He has power thrust upon him but he never wanted it. When the same thing happened to draco when he was told to murder dumbledore, he changed and we sympathised with him like we do with harry.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?
I think as soon as he joined the death eaters it was all out of fear but before that it was his own choices to act out to impress his pears and his father.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.
Draco grew up with every material possession he wanted and thought everyone else would be jealous just like crabbe and goyle were. however harry, who never had material possessions was too busy desiring love and a family so was not impressed by draco's wealth.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?
I think he is misunderstood he was made mean by his social enviroment but he changed and had second doubts about being a death eater in my opinion and some credit must be awarded to him for that.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?
I think he wished he's kill dumbledore to please voldemort and the death eater but morally and think he's happy he didn't since he was not an evil person, just a person who wanted more than he had.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.
I don't think he had to do anything about it. He is grateful to harry but after all he probably never saw draco except for at kings cross.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?
I think it's safe to say its not pansy as everyone whom harry knew was mentioned in the epilouge, so it must be a stranger to harry.

I don't see how one can say Draco wasn't smarter than Harry and Ron, especially Ron whose academic inferiority is routinely shown in the books.

Ron and Harry got the same grades - except for DADA where Harry got an O to Ron's E - and Ron got more OWLs than we know the Twins, Neville, or Draco received.

Personally I don't understand why the idea that Draco is academically bright is troublesome or contentious

Draco is bright but so are Harry, Ron, and the Twins. Another thing they all have in common? None of them have ever shown the slightest indication that they are studious.

We also have Slughorn talking about how brainy the Black Family was and how he wanted all of them, including Sirius.

Well, it's a moot point since he didn't want Draco in his club.

We see smart and talented people come from this house: Snape, Voldemort, Bellatrix, Regulus (who outsmarted Voldemort), etc.

You forgot Crabbe and Goyle. :)

Gryffindor has its share of clever people - Dumbledore, McGonagall, the Marauders, Hermione, Percy. That doesn't make it the smart house anymore than it does Slytherin. That's Ravenclaw. Slytherin is the ambitious house and Gryffindor the bold house.

Draco was possibly second to Hermione in grades but that's only one possible interpretation of the scene in CoS. He is a quick study, shrewd, and very clever but he showed no signs of being a great intellect. In fact, he was very intellectually lazy as proven by his mindless adherence to pureblood beliefs despite spending years at Hogwarts where they were challenged again and again. He lacks wisdom and sometimes even common sense and shows no signs of intellectual curiosity or interest in challenging himself. I know a lot of AU fics like to put him in Ravenclaw but I think he had as much claim to that house as he did Gryffindor, which is to say not much.

If I were to rank the characters in order of intelligence, he'd be in the upper-middle end with Harry, Ron, and definitely below the Twins. Smart but nothing special.

Ron and Harry got the same grades - except for DADA where Harry got an O to Ron's E - and Ron got more OWLs than we know the Twins, Neville, or Draco received.

How many Owls did Draco receive and what letter grades did he get?


Draco is bright but so are Harry, Ron, and the Twins. Another thing they all have in common? None of them have ever shown the slightest indication that they are studious.

And what does this have to do with anything? One doesn't have to be studious to get good grades.


You forgot Crabbe and Goyle. :)

Not everyone has all traits of their house. These two are a special case because they don't have any slytherin traits.

Gryffindor has its share of clever people - Dumbledore, McGonagall, the Marauders, Hermione, Percy. That doesn't make it the smart house anymore than it does Slytherin. That's Ravenclaw. Slytherin is the ambitious house and Gryffindor the bold house.

My point is that Slytherin had a reputation for being smart if someone called it "brainy." It may not be THE smart house, but that does not mean the house cannot be known for having its fair share of smart people.

Draco was possibly second to Hermione in grades but that's only one possible interpretation of the scene in CoS. He is a quick study, shrewd, and very clever but he showed no signs of being a great intellect. In fact, he was very intellectually lazy as proven by his mindless adherence to pureblood beliefs despite spending years at Hogwarts where they were challenged again and again. He lacks wisdom and sometimes even common sense and shows no signs of intellectual curiosity or interest in challenging himself.

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that we were discussing academics.

I know a lot of AU fics like to put him in Ravenclaw but I think he had as much claim to that house as he did Gryffindor, which is to say not much.

I don't see what AU fics have to do with the discussion on this board. Are you saying that people only think Draco is smart because they read it in fanfiction? I came to the conclusion that Draco is smart on my own. And even so, if people write Draco that way in fan fiction, obviously they had that impression of him when they read the books (before they wrote their fan fiction).

Smart but nothing special.Smart people don't have to be special.

How many Owls did Draco receive and what letter grades did he get?

He received Owls in Potions, DADA, and Transfiguration because he is mentioned as taking those classes in HBP.

So, it would appear three. Now, I'd like to believe there were more but there simply is no canon evidence to support such a belief.

And what does this have to do with anything? One doesn't have to be studious to get good grades.

It helps. Taking school seriously and not going on about how it's "who you know" that counts or how maybe you'll just drop out to be a full time lackey for Voldemort isn't someone who, how did you put it: And if Lucius compares Draco to Hermione, that leads me to believe that grades were important. People who make a big deal about grades tend to have good grades.

Isn't someone who makes a big deal about grades.

Draco doesn't seem to care about school, so I doubt he cares about grades, which means that by your own reasoning, he probably doesn't get good grades.

These two are a special case because they don't have any slytherin traits.

They're not pure-blooded? They're not willing to do anything to achieve their ends? (Crabbe certainly was.) They're not ambitious? (Again, Crabbe definitely was willing to step out from Draco's shadow and maybe Goyle thought being Draco's right hand man was the highest position he could aim for in life.) Sure they're not cunning but three out of four is pretty good.

My point is that Slytherin had a reputation for being smart if someone called it "brainy.

One person who was biased towards it.

Houses are like babies, everyone thinks theirs is the best one. There is no evidence that Slytherins are known for their smarts (other than cunning which is only one very particular sort of intelligence that Draco does indeed have) and, in fact, ample evidence against it. Like it not being the house associated with intelligence, wit, and wisdom for starters.

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that we were discussing academics.

I'm pretty sure that as long as its Draco-related, kept to a PG-rating and doesn't break any of the rules, I can discuss whatever I please in this thread. :)

Are you saying that people only think Draco is smart because they read it in fanfiction?

It is a portrayal common in certain areas of fandom, yes.

And even so, if people write Draco that way in fan fiction, obviously they had that impression of him when they read the books (before they wrote their fan fiction).

Considering some of the fannish interpretations of characters, I sincerely hope not.

Smart people don't have to be special.

So we both agree then that he is smart but not special? How nice, I like it when threads end with an agreement.

Draco doesn't seem to care about school, so I doubt he cares about grades, which means that by your own reasoning, he probably doesn't get good grades.

I believe the canon shows that Draco cared about his grades until he became a Death Eater and was given the task of killing Dumbledore. One of the ways the author shows his personality change (beyond the weight loss and crying in the restroom) is that he is skipping class, which isn't like him at all. He gets a detention for not doing his homework in HBP and except for Book One, we never hear about Draco getting other detentions:

"— and what is more," said Professor McGonagall, with an air of awful finality, "Mr.Malfoy was not in Hogsmeade today."

Harry gaped at her, deflating.

"How do you know, Professor?"

"Because he was doing detention with me. He has now failed to complete his
Transfiguration homework twice in a row. So, thank you for telling me your suspicions, Potter."

Yes, he says he doesn't care about school on the train to Hogwarts that year, but it's more complicated than just disliking school. Draco isn't even sure that there's going to be a school once Dumbledore is gone, and he can't envision a future of himself as a student after he becomes a killer.

And another thing to notice is that both Blaise Zabini and Pansy Parkinson are shocked that Draco would actually see himself as a Death Eater and not wish to return to school. So are Crabbe and Goyle. Part of the reason Draco is saying "who cares?" about school is sour grapes because Slughorn doesn't want him in the Slug Clug since he is connected to Death Eaters. Malfoy is angry about that and wants to prove to Zabini that he's moved beyond Hogwarts or that he is somehow more sophisticated because he is a DE. JMO

"I wouldn't bank on an invitation," said Zabini. "He (Slughorn) asked me about Notts father when I first arrived. They used to be old friends, apparently, but when he heard he'd been caught at the Ministry he didn't look happy, and Nott didn't get an invitation, did he? I don't think Slughorn's interested in Death Eaters."

Malfoy looked angry, but forced out a singularly humorless laugh.

"Well, who cares what he's interested in? What is he, when you come down to it? Just some stupid teacher." Malfoy yawned ostentatiously. "I mean, I might not even be at Hogwarts next year, what's it matter to me if some fat old has-been likes me or not?"

"What do you mean, you might not be at Hogwarts next year?" said Pansy indignantly, ceasing grooming Malfoy at once.

"Well, you never know," said Malfoy with the ghost of a smirk. "I might have, er, moved on to bigger and better things."

Crouched in the luggage rack under his cloak, Harry's heart began to race. What would Ron and Hermione say about this? Crabbe and Goyle were gawping at Malfoy; apparently they had had no inkling of any plans to move on to bigger and better things.

Even Zabini had allowed a look of curiosity to mar his haughty features. Pansy resumed the slow stroking of Malfoy s hair, looking dumbfounded.

"Do you mean…”

Malfoy shrugged.

"Mother wants me to complete my education, but personally, I don't see it as that important these days. I mean, think about it... When the Dark Lord takes over, is he going to care how many OWLs or N.E.W.T.S anyone's got? Of course he isn't. It'll be all about the kind of service he received, the level of devotion he was shown."

"And you think you'll be able to do something for him?" asked Zabini scathingly. "Sixteen years old and not even fully qualified yet?"

"I've just said, haven't I? Maybe he doesn't care if I'm qualified. Maybe the job he wants me to do isn't something that you need to be qualified for," said Malfoy quietly.

He received Owls in Potions, DADA, and Transfiguration because he is mentioned as taking those classes in HBP.

So, it would appear three. Now, I'd like to believe there were more but there simply is no canon evidence to support such a belief.

But we don't know all the classes he had in HBP. Just because all his classes aren't mentioned does not mean he didn't take them. I don’t think a 6th year student can take just three classes so he must have had other classes.


Draco doesn't seem to care about school, so I doubt he cares about grades, which means that by your own reasoning, he probably doesn't get good grades.
When I said people who care about grades tend to get good grades I did not mean that only people who care about grades get good grades. For some people, school is easy and they excel not because they care so much but because they can do so without any real effort. That being said, I do not get the impression that he doesn't care about school. I think for Draco, excelling in school would be another way to show his superiority.



One person who was biased towards it.
I don’t think he was biased to the point where he had to make up things about the house. Slytherin has a lot of good traits associated with it, but he chose to call the house “brainy” when he could have used any other positive adjective to describe it. I think if he said that, there must be some smarts associated with the house.


I'm pretty sure that as long as its Draco-related, kept to a PG-rating and doesn't break any of the rules, I can discuss whatever I please in this thread.

I did not mean to say you cannot talk about any Draco related subject. I was just pointing out that I was talking about academics and you responded to my points by talking about nonacadeimc things, though they are related to academia in some ways. You were talking more about things that help one grow in life, but a person who does not have those can still do well in school by just studying and memorizing (like Hermione)



Considering some of the fannish interpretations of characters, I sincerely hope not.
I don’t see is wrong with someone getting the impression that Draco is smart. I got that impression and I don’t read Draco fan fiction.




So we both agree then that he is smart but not special? How nice, I like it when threads end with an agreement.

I’m not sure if we agree. This statement seems to contradict what you said earlier. Earlier you seemed to be implying that you do not think Draco is smart.

There is smarts and there is intelligence. For instance Hermione was intelligent, but as she says to Harry, intelligence is not everything. I think Draco in many ways was smart. He was smart enough to cosy up to Snape. Was he intelligent to make good grades in other classes where he was not favoured by his Head of House? I tend to think he was intelligent enough to get good grades, but was singularly stupid when it came to seeing how wrong his parents Pureblood beliefs were when he was interacting with people who did not agree with said beliefs. Especially when those same people did not cut him any slack because he was Pureblood and expected him to succeed without special treatment.

But we don't know all the classes he had in HBP.

You're assuming he took more than those three. Maybe that was it.

That being said, I do not get the impression that he doesn't care about school.

Well, I think his comments in OOTP and HBP show that he wasn't taking school seriously because he didn't think he'd need to.

Earlier you seemed to be implying that you do not think Draco is smart.

No, I pointed out at the start that I think Draco has some intelligence: He is a quick study, shrewd, and very clever but he showed no signs of being a great intellect.

Of course, that was the part that you dismissed as it supposedly had nothing to do with academics.

It's possible Draco wasn't second to Hermione, that Hermione was at the top of her class and someone like Ernie Macmillan was second and Padma Patil third and Lucius ignored those two because they're pure-bloods and he really cared that Draco was being beat by a muggle-born.

But one can also read that Draco was second. He might not have been smarter than Harry or Ron and certainly wasn't a hard work but he may have been more ambitious.

Either are possible, and the combinations of top-ranking students may have been different in each subject. Possibly, being beaten by Purebloods didn't matter as much as being beaten by a Muggleborn, to someone like Lucius.


My point is that Slytherin had a reputation for being smart if someone called it "brainy." It may not be THE smart house, but that does not mean the house cannot be known for having its fair share of smart people.

Slytherin House is never called brainy in the Sorting Hat's song. Cunning and ambitious, yes. I can see there's a relationship between cunning and brainy, but they're not the same thing. Personally, I would take the characteristics described by the Sorting Hat above those claimed by a character with a bias towards that House, and who hasn't been at Hogwarts yet to be able to make that assertion or to know enough about that House to say with certainty.

I believe the canon shows that Draco cared about his grades until he became a Death Eater and was given the task of killing Dumbledore. One of the ways the author shows his personality change (beyond the weight loss and crying in the restroom) is that he is skipping class, which isn't like him at all. He gets a detention for not doing his homework in HBP and except for Book One, we never hear about Draco getting other detentions:

I think he also got detention for his Dementor prank at the Quidditch match in PoA. And in any case, Draco's serving detentions wouldn't be something Harry would know about, unless it was relevant to himself. As there's no mention of them, I don't think it can be said definitively whether or not he had detentions.


In fact, he was very intellectually lazy as proven by his mindless adherence to pureblood beliefs despite spending years at Hogwarts where they were challenged again and again. He lacks wisdom and sometimes even common sense and shows no signs of intellectual curiosity or interest in challenging himself.

There is smarts and there is intelligence. For instance Hermione was intelligent, but as she says to Harry, intelligence is not everything. I think Draco in many ways was smart. He was smart enough to cosy up to Snape. Was he intelligent to make good grades in other classes where he was not favoured by his Head of House? I tend to think he was intelligent enough to get good grades, but was singularly stupid when it came to seeing how wrong his parents Pureblood beliefs were when he was interacting with people who did not agree with said beliefs. Especially when those same people did not cut him any slack because he was Pureblood and expected him to succeed without special treatment.

Good points. Perhaps Draco was able to excel in school, perhaps not. We don't know, apart from the facts that he got at least E grades in Potions and Transfiguration to be allowed take those classes. However, I agree that he didn't show much intelligence in day-to-day life. He could see that there were intelligent Muggleborns, like Hermione -he puts it down to favouritism. He sees Muggleborns and halfbloods in school, sees they're not the disgusting inferior lifeforms he's been told they are, yet he doesn't take these experiences and learn from them - to borrow from Sherlock Holmes, he twists facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts.


Well, I think his comments in OOTP and HBP show that he wasn't taking school seriously because he didn't think he'd need to.

I think that's pretty clear in the passage on the train - he'd decided that study and applying himself to schoolwork didn't matter, as what mattered was showing loyalty and grovelling to a madman.

@Birdi, I really don't understand your overall point. Are you saying that Draco is intelligent but not smart? Or are you saying that he is smart but not intelligent? Your posts seem to be going back and forth.

I believe the canon shows that Draco cared about his grades until he became a Death Eater and was given the task of killing Dumbledore.

Nope, it started all the way back in OOTP, Chapter 31: Of course, it's not what you know,' he was heard to tell Crabbe and Goyle loudly outside Potions a few days before the exams were to start, 'it's who you know. Now, Father's been friendly with the head of the Wizarding Examinations Authority for years — old Griselda Marchbanks - we've had her round for dinner and everything…'

Perhaps he slacked off, expecting Daddy to fix it and then when Lucius went to jail, he was stuck with his crummy grades and had to accept he only had three OWLs.

Your posts seem to be going back and forth.

My point has remained the same: Draco was possibly second to Hermione in grades but that's only one possible interpretation of the scene in CoS. He is a quick study, shrewd, and very clever but he showed no signs of being a great intellect. In fact, he was very intellectually lazy as proven by his mindless adherence to pureblood beliefs despite spending years at Hogwarts where they were challenged again and again. He lacks wisdom and sometimes even common sense and shows no signs of intellectual curiosity or interest in challenging himself. I know a lot of AU fics like to put him in Ravenclaw but I think he had as much claim to that house as he did Gryffindor, which is to say not much.

If I were to rank the characters in order of intelligence, he'd be in the upper-middle end with Harry, Ron, and definitely below the Twins. Smart but nothing special.

@Birdi, but what exactly is your point? I'm not trying to be rude, but I really don't see where you stand on whether or not Draco is smart.

He could see that there were intelligent Muggleborns, like Hermione -he puts it down to favouritism.

Draco knows that Snape doesn't show Hermione any favouritism and she still beat him in Potions. So, I see Draco using the idea of favouritism as the reason he didn't do as well as Hermione, purely as an excuse.

He sees Muggleborns and halfbloods in school, sees they're not the disgusting inferior lifeforms he's been told they are, yet he doesn't take these experiences and learn from them -

I don't think there is a link between lack of intelligence and prejudice. There are very intelligent people who have severe prejudices. Draco was prejudiced against Muggleborns and Halfbloods due to his upbringing and the values that were instilled in him from birth. This sort of ingrained predjudice takes more than simple reasoning to dispell.


I think that's pretty clear in the passage on the train - he'd decided that study and applying himself to schoolwork didn't matter, as what mattered was showing loyalty and grovelling to a madman.

This all happens after a severe upheaval in Draco's life as his father has just been imprisoned. We don't see Draco before this ever saying that studying and schoolwork didn't matter.
I think we are meant to see a change in Draco from this moment.

As for Draco's OWL'S we are not told directly about them in the text. And,as we only ever see NEWT classes in Transfiguration, Potions, Herbology and DADA,I don't think we can't assume that he did or didn't study other subjects at NEWT level; such as Arithmancy ,Astronomy, Ancient Runes,Charms or Divination.

This all happens after a severe upheaval in Draco's life as his father has just been imprisoned. We don't see Draco before this ever saying that studying and schoolwork didn't matter.
I think we are meant to see a change in Draco from this moment.

As for Draco's OWL'S we are not told directly about them in the text. And,as we only ever see NEWT classes in Transfiguration, Potions, Herbology and DADA,I don't think we can't assume that he did or didn't study other subjects at NEWT level; such as Arithmancy ,Astronomy, Ancient Runes,Charms or Divination.

We don't see enough of Draco's study habits to comment one way or another. I would have to agree with Birdie, he was smart but nothing special. The one time we see a serious discussion of his grades, his father is giving him severe grief over them and he is whining favouritism.

My own take from the books is that Draco is academically one of the top students of his year. A number of canon factors combine to lead me to this conclusion,

1) He is the only student whose technique Snape praises ("The Potions Master", PS/SS). This could be due to favoritism, but in light of the number of other factors listed below, I am inclined to believe it was actually based on Draco having done something right in that class.
2) In CoS, Lucius berates him for letting a Muggleborn girl beat his grades in all his classes. This, clearly, means Hermione, whom we know to be the smartest witch in her year. That he makes the comparison at all, means to me that Draco came close to her in some or all of those classes. Lucius would not single out a single Muggleborn girl who is better, if half the year, or anyting close, all did better than Draco, this is just not the way people usually talk and think.
3) In OotP, we learn Draco was made a Prefect. This is a decision that lies to some extent to Dumbledore (see his conversation with Harry about Ron being made Prefect...) so it cannnot be attributed to Snape/favoritism alone.
4) In GoF Draco is the creator of the Potter Stinks transforming pins. It's a neat little bit of magic, whatever we may think of the sentiment therein expressed. ;)
5) In HBP Draco demonstrates facility with several advanced bits of magic. Imperio, if we believe he Impoerio'ed Rosmerta. The Protean Charm, needed to create the coin he used to communicate with Rosmerta. The repair of a Vanishing Cabinet. Polyjuice Potion (surely we do not think Crabbe and Goyle brewed it? :lol: ) He also expects to be in Potions, suggesting he had an O on his Owl.

Finally, as the son of Narcissa Black, he is closely related to a family from which every member we know anything about, seems to have been quite talented/accomplished. I'd need to see evidence he was not magically talented or bright, really, and instead it seems to me I see evidence he is.

And,as we only ever see NEWT classes in Transfiguration, Potions, Herbology and DADA,I don't think we can't assume that he did or didn't study other subjects at NEWT level; such as Arithmancy ,Astronomy, Ancient Runes,Charms or Divination.

We would not even know for sure that he was not in all of Harry's classes - we spend little enough time in class, in HBP, that he might not be mentioned every time he is present. We know he is in Potions and DADA - any others?

but what exactly is your point? I'm not trying to be rude, but I really don't see where you stand on whether or not Draco is smart.

I feel I have stated it repeatedly but to make it simple: Draco is smart but not that smart. He has certain kinds of intelligences but lacks others. He has potential but doesn't show much follow through. He has the brains but we see no sign that he does the work.

Intelligence isn't just about what you have, it's what you do with it. Your brain is a muscle like any other. Draco doesn't give his much exercise, often choosing what's easy over what's challenging. The result is, he hasn't proven that he is of exceptional intelligence like Snape or even the Twins or that he is hard-working and a good student like Hermione.

This, clearly, means Hermione, whom we know to be the smartest witch in her year. That he makes the comparison at all, means to me that Draco came close to her in some or all of those classes. Lucius would not single out a single Muggleborn girl who is better, if half the year, or anyting close, all did better than Draco, this is just not the way people usually talk and think.

But as I pointed out, it could be that the rankings went like this: 1.) Hermione Granger 2.) Ernie Macmillan 3.) Padma Patil 4.) Terry Boot 5.) Theodore Nott and 6.) Draco Malfoy but Lucius didn't mention 2-5 because they're not Muggleborns so he's not as bothered by them beating Draco at school. It's that a Muggleborn - someone who hadn't even known wizards existed before she received her letter - is also besting his son.

3) In OotP, we learn Draco was made a Prefect. This is a decision that lies to some extent to Dumbledore (see his conversation with Harry about Ron being made Prefect...) so it cannnot be attributed to Snape/favoritism alone.

Who was Draco's competition? Crabbe or Goyle would have been a laughable choice, Nott was more clever than Draco (according to JKR) but a loner so he wouldn't have been a good choice, which leaves Blaise or Draco.

Blaise seems fairly intelligent from what little we see of him, so he might have made a good choice but maybe he wasn't much better academically. He only gets into the Slug Club because of his mother so it sounds as if he doesn't have any achievements of his own to recommend him.

It's also possible this was another James Potter parallel where Dumbledore chose Draco in the hopes that it would encourage him to be more responsible. In which case, that failed miserably.

4) In GoF Draco is the creator of the Potter Stinks transforming pins. It's a neat little bit of magic, whatever we may think of the sentiment therein expressed.

It was and though I doubt it was particularly innovative, it showed skill on his part. However, since it wasn't a school project, I don't think it has much to do with academics.

In HBP Draco demonstrates facility with several advanced bits of magic. Imperio, if we believe he Impoerio'ed Rosmerta.

I wonder how hard it is to master. Harry manages to cast Crucio semi-effectively in OOTP and DH and Imperius effectively in DH without any tutoring. Not to mention, Crabbe and Goyle had shown skill in the Cruciatus and Fiendfyre.

I think the Dark Arts are more about will than intellect.

The Protean Charm, needed to create the coin he used to communicate with Rosmerta.

Like I said, he's a quick study and that Hermione Granger had unintentionally put the idea in his head and showed how it would work surely helped.

The repair of a Vanishing Cabinet.

That did take skill and his entire plan was pretty good, all things considered.

Polyjuice Potion (surely we do not think Crabbe and Goyle brewed it? )

I would hope that a 16 year-old Draco would be capable of creating the same potion that a 13-year old Hermione did in CoS.

Polyjuice Potion (surely we do not think Crabbe and Goyle brewed it? :lol: )

He could have bought it. Much easier than spending months brewing a complicated potion.

I do think he's fairly intelligent, by the way. Or at least capable. He managed to invoke (is that the word) a snake (a big and scary one) out of thin air in his second year, he must have had his O OWL in Potions, because students that didn't (like Ron and Harry) thought they'd be unable to take Potions, and he was there since the beggining. Of course, we could say he already knew there would be a new teacher, but seeing as he refused to talk with Snape, I'd wonder who told him.

We would not even know for sure that he was not in all of Harry's classes - we spend little enough time in class, in HBP, that he might not be mentioned every time he is present. We know he is in Potions and DADA - any others?

He is also mentioned as taking Transfiguration. The fact is that we don't have all the necessary information to make a conclusion. Draco might have been taking Arithmancy or Astronomy NEWTS, but as we are not given any scenes in HBP from those classes we don't know one way or the other. As we are given so little evidence I think it is just conjecture to say that he didn't take other NEWT classes, just as much as saying he did.
However, we do know for certain that he achieved either an "O" or "E" for Potions and at least an "E" for Transfiguration, so I don't see why he shouldn't have done as well in other subjects. But we just don't know!

Perhaps he slacked off, expecting Daddy to fix it and then when Lucius went to jail, he was stuck with his crummy grades and had to accept he only had three OWLs.

I can see two possibilities for Draco's remarks about his father knowing the examiners. Either he is counting on Lucius buying him better exam results, or he is just being full of hot air, and trying to make himself seem important and well-connected, while at the same time, giving others cause to worry.

Draco knows that Snape doesn't show Hermione any favouritism and she still beat him in Potions. So, I see Draco using the idea of favouritism as the reason he didn't do as well as Hermione, purely as an excuse.

Or, it's an indication that even though Draco knows Hermione beat him fair and square, he's refusing to acknowledge that a "Mudblood" could outshine him. Letting his prejudices come in the way of the common sense that would tell him that Hermione wasn't the one getting preferential treatment in Potions.


2) In CoS, Lucius berates him for letting a Muggleborn girl beat his grades in all his classes. This, clearly, means Hermione, whom we know to be the smartest witch in her year. That he makes the comparison at all, means to me that Draco came close to her in some or all of those classes. Lucius would not single out a single Muggleborn girl who is better, if half the year, or anyting close, all did better than Draco, this is just not the way people usually talk and think.

Most people don't talk like this. However, Lucius Malfoy is a man who is prepared to murder for his prejudices. I can easily see him being bothered, not that Draco was beaten in the exams, but that he was beaten by someone he deemed inferior. I don't think he would be as bothered by Purebloods who had beaten Draco. And Hermione is the only one who beat Draco in every exam. It doesn't exclude the possibility, as birdi86 points out, that maybe other Purebloods beat him in some exams.


I wonder how hard it is to master. Harry manages to cast Crucio semi-effectively in OOTP and DH and Imperius effectively in DH without any tutoring. Not to mention, Crabbe and Goyle had shown skill in the Cruciatus and Fiendfyre.
I think the Dark Arts are more about will than intellect.

Possibly, considering Bellatrix, an expert on Dark Magic, tells Harry you need to mean an Unforgivable for it to work.

I don't think he would be as bothered by Purebloods who had beaten Draco. And Hermione is the only one who beat Draco in every exam. It doesn't exclude the possibility, as birdi86 points out, that maybe other Purebloods beat him in some exams.

This is why I said "one of", I am not suggesting he must be second only to Hermione. I would think Ernie MacMillan (based on all that hard work...) and I would hope, a couple of students in Ravenclaw (the house of wit and learning), might be in the mix as well.

However, there are not very many purebloods left, this is mentioned on a few occasions in the books. Additionally, Purebloods are not actually on average any better at magic/academics (if they were, it would imply a factual basis for the blood prejudice. :D ) So that there cannot, in my opinion, be lots of purebloodsin Draco's year who are all better than he is.

However, we do know for certain that he achieved either an "O" or "E" for Potions and at least an "E" for Transfiguration, so I don't see why he shouldn't have done as well in other subjects. But we just don't know!

The Protean Charm is a NEWT standard spell. If Draco is not taking NEWT Charms, he is successfully undertaking self-study of the material as he needs it. :) (I suppose Occlumency is another area in which Draco may be learning stuff outside of classes, I forgot to mention it in my list of advanced magic Draco knows in HBP).

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.
\I believe Lucius was;t demanding ,bcos himself and Narcissa were willing to forfiet loyalty to Voldermort to see Draco safe.

The Protean Charm is a NEWT standard spell. If Draco is not taking NEWT Charms, he is successfully undertaking self-study of the material as he needs it. :)

Yes! From that information then we can say that either Draco was taking NEWT Charms or taught himself.

(I suppose Occlumency is another area in which Draco may be learning stuff outside of classes, I forgot to mention it in my list of advanced magic Draco knows in HBP).

Bellarix taught Draco Occlumency, so I think he must have originally studied it during the summer and practised after returning to Hogwarts.

He could have bought it. Much easier than spending months brewing a complicated potion.
I dont think he brewed it or bought it. There was a whole vat of it in Slughorn's potions class. Harry believes that Draco nicked quite a bit when Slughorn's back was turned. Its possible that he did brew it if that supply ran out though.

\I believe Lucius was;t demanding ,bcos himself and Narcissa were willing to forfiet loyalty to Voldermort to see Draco safe.

Lucius was demanding, it is shown in this scene of CoS:

"Can I have that?" interrupted Draco, pointing at the withered hand on its cushion.
"Ah, the Hand of Glory!" said Mr Borgin, abandoning Mr Malfoy's list and scurrying over to Draco. "Insert a candle and it gives light only to the holder! Best friend of thieves and plunderers! Your son has fine taste, sir."
"I hope my son will amount to more" ... "Though if his school marks don't pick up," said Mr Malfoy, more coldly still, "that may indeed be all he is fit for."
"It's not my fault," retorted Draco. "The teachers all have favourites, that Hermione Granger - "
"I would have thought you'd be ashamed that a girl of no wizard family beat you in every exam," snapped Mr Malfoy.

I've always seen Draco as intelligent. He's a good student, becomes a Prefect and we raraly see him getting in trouble with the teachers (at least, not because of his achievements as a student).

He is flawed in many ways, and the way he was brought up makes him acting stupidly and behaving in a contemptuous manner towards his inferiors (= almost everyone). But he is smart and clever.

I must say I liked him best after reading HBP and DH.

I always liked draco as a character and I agree with UselesscharmMaster and think he can be very clever and nice when he wants to be =]

From the James thread http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=5538775#post5538775
Draco's arrogance made him a coward in many respects and ceratinly he was led down a dark path because of it.

I disagree that it was arrogance that led Draco down the wrong path. I think family background and a thirst to prove himself played a rather large part in that. He was arrogant for sure, but that's not why he served Voldemort.

"Can I have that?" interrupted Draco, pointing at the withered hand on its cushion.
"Ah, the Hand of Glory!" said Mr Borgin, abandoning Mr Malfoy's list and scurrying over to Draco. "Insert a candle and it gives light only to the holder! Best friend of thieves and plunderers! Your son has fine taste, sir."
"I hope my son will amount to more" ... "Though if his school marks don't pick up," said Mr Malfoy, more coldly still, "that may indeed be all he is fit for."
"It's not my fault," retorted Draco. "The teachers all have favourites, that Hermione Granger - "
"I would have thought you'd be ashamed that a girl of no wizard family beat you in every exam," snapped Mr Malfoy.

To me that sounds like Draco isn't even close to being second best in his class because second best in your year at Hogwarts would still mean you have amazing prospects when attempting to get a job after school. Lucius makes it sound like Malfoy's marks have been extremely disappointing.

To me that sounds like Draco isn't even close to being second best in his class because second best in your year at Hogwarts would still mean you have amazing prospects when attempting to get a job after school. Lucius makes it sound like Malfoy's marks have been extremely disappointing.

It seemed to me like Lucius was exaggerating when he said that's all Draco maybe fit for. I think his marks were disappointing because he knew someone of his son was capable of doing much better.

He is flawed in many ways, and the way he was brought up makes him acting stupidly and behaving in a contemptuous manner towards his inferiors (= almost everyone). But he is smart and clever.

Someone who believes almost everyone to be their inferior is incredibly arrogant and a very unpleasant person. I think this arrogance also led Draco to believe it would be easy to kill his so-called inferiors before he was faced with the reality of it. However, I think that the events of HBP and especially DH led Draco to realise that things were not as simple as kill a few inferiors, be important in the Dark Lord's estimation, get ahead. I think he was shocked by the reality of it, as is seen by his ill appearance in both books as the pressure of doing what's expected of a Death Eater takes its toll.

It seemed to me like Lucius was exaggerating when he said that's all Draco maybe fit for. I think his marks were disappointing because he knew someone of his son was capable of doing much better.

But second place isn't a disappointment. If Draco had achieved second place in his year, that would have been quite an impressive achievement, and a sign of intelligence and/or hard work. And if he was second, there wasn't much better he could have done, just one place.
Lucius' disappointment and exaggeration to that extent is far more credible if Draco's results were somewhere in the middle, rather than a close second.

Someone who believes almost everyone to be their inferior is incredibly arrogant and a very unpleasant person. I think this arrogance also led Draco to believe it would be easy to kill his so-called inferiors before he was faced with the reality of it. However, I think that the events of HBP and especially DH led Draco to realise that things were not as simple as kill a few inferiors, be important in the Dark Lord's estimation, get ahead. I think he was shocked by the reality of it, as is seen by his ill appearance in both books as the pressure of doing what's expected of a Death Eater takes its toll.

But second place isn't a disappointment. If Draco had achieved second place in his year, that would have been quite an impressive achievement, and a sign of intelligence and/or hard work. And if he was second, there wasn't much better he could have done, just one place.
Lucius' disappointment and exaggeration to that extent is far more credible if Draco's results were somewhere in the middle, rather than a close second.

I would have to agree with this assessment. Lucius, for all his faults, truly loved his son. To be so scathing of Draco's marks shows a lot of disappointment. If Draco had been anywhere near the top percent in his class Lucius would have been smirking at how intelligent his son was.

Sometimes I thought, the reason why we see Draco in such a negative way is because Harry had decided to choose Ron as friend rather than him, thus make Draco Harry's arch rival from the very beginning.

I always think: what if Harry had accepted Draco's friendship back then on Hogwarts Express when he was 11 years old, the story could be quite different. Maybe we will see the cool side of Draco, we will see his struggles in a more personal level when he was made to plan for Dumbledore's murder, and maybe the whole view of him will be more in a positive light.

Winky45:sigh:

But second place isn't a disappointment. If Draco had achieved second place in his year, that would have been quite an impressive achievement, and a sign of intelligence and/or hard work.

I agree that to most people comimg second would be considered an achievement. However, we are talking about Lucius Malfoy, and I think he would expect nothing but top marks from his son. I think coming second would be seen as a faliure to Lucius. I see Lucius as a person who would expect that the Malfoys have to be the best at absolutely everything. So, anything less than coming first I think would be considered by him as an utter disgrace to the family name. Add to that coming second to a muggleborn and I can see him being very scathing on Draco's efforts.


Sometimes I thought, the reason why we see Draco in such a negative way is because Harry had decided to choose Ron as friend rather than him, thus make Draco Harry's arch rival from the very beginning.

I always think: what if Harry had accepted Draco's friendship back then on Hogwarts Express when he was 11 years old, the story could be quite different. Maybe we will see the cool side of Draco, we will see his struggles in a more personal level when he was made to plan for Dumbledore's murder, and maybe the whole view of him will be more in a positive light.

Winky45:sigh:

Yes, I think we would probably have seen a different side to Draco.

Sometimes I thought, the reason why we see Draco in such a negative way is because Harry had decided to choose Ron as friend rather than him, thus make Draco Harry's arch rival from the very beginning.

I always think: what if Harry had accepted Draco's friendship back then on Hogwarts Express when he was 11 years old, the story could be quite different. Maybe we will see the cool side of Draco, we will see his struggles in a more personal level when he was made to plan for Dumbledore's murder, and maybe the whole view of him will be more in a positive light.

Winky45:sigh:

Draco has a cool side? I have to confess that after reading the entire series I never saw one. I thought he was nasty and pathetic in HBP, and I'm sure Katie Bell would agree with that. I also found him nasty and pathetic in DH. Especially after Harry saved him in the Room of Requirements and he still tried to hurt Harry. That's not my idea of cool. It's true that he wavered on identifying the Trio, but I'm not that impressed by someone half way doing the right thing. I would have been more impressed if he had let Harry and Ron out of the dungeons to stop the torture of Hermione. But IMO, that's Draco for you. He can't commit to doing the wrong thing, but he can never quite bring himself to do the right thing either. He was very lucky that his mother loved him.
Harry, I think saw right through Draco when he was 11 years old. He had grown up with a spoilt bully and he knew one when he saw one.

"Can I have that?" interrupted Draco, pointing at the withered hand on its cushion.
"Ah, the Hand of Glory!" said Mr Borgin, abandoning Mr Malfoy's list and scurrying over to Draco. "Insert a candle and it gives light only to the holder! Best friend of thieves and plunderers! Your son has fine taste, sir."
"I hope my son will amount to more" ... "Though if his school marks don't pick up," said Mr Malfoy, more coldly still, "that may indeed be all he is fit for."
"It's not my fault," retorted Draco. "The teachers all have favourites, that Hermione Granger - "
"I would have thought you'd be ashamed that a girl of no wizard family beat you in every exam," snapped Mr Malfoy.

To me that sounds like Draco isn't even close to being second best in his class because second best in your year at Hogwarts would still mean you have amazing prospects when attempting to get a job after school. Lucius makes it sound like Malfoy's marks have been extremely disappointing.

I have to agree with your assessment, GingerCat. Of course, this is after only one year of school, and wasn't necessarily true of his entire student career, but it does sound to me like Draco's marks were mediocre at best after 1st year. Draco blames the teachers, seeming to claim that they mark unfairly because they have favorites. The plural tells me that he wasn't 2nd in his class. I actually can't think of anything that would indicate that Draco was near the top of his class.

By 5th year Draco was a Prefect, and I was under the impression that Prefects were top students so its likely his grades improved between 1st and 4th years, although nothing indicates to me that he was 2nd only to Hermione. I'd think all the Ravenclaws have a better chance of filling up the top tier, and then there is nothing to indicate that Prefect Draco is above Pansy or the Hufflepuffs. He is probably a top student at that point, though. He may be like many people, okay in most subjects and great in a few.

I have to agree with your assessment, GingerCat. Of course, this is after only one year of school, and wasn't necessarily true of his entire student career, but it does sound to me like Draco's marks were mediocre at best after 1st year. Draco blames the teachers, seeming to claim that they mark unfairly because they have favorites. The plural tells me that he wasn't 2nd in his class. I actually can't think of anything that would indicate that Draco was near the top of his class.

By 5th year Draco was a Prefect, and I was under the impression that Prefects were top students so its likely his grades improved between 1st and 4th years, although nothing indicates to me that he was 2nd only to Hermione. I'd think all the Ravenclaws have a better chance of filling up the top tier, and then there is nothing to indicate that Prefect Draco is above Pansy or the Hufflepuffs. He is probably a top student at that point, though. He may be like many people, okay in most subjects and great in a few.

Draco was the Prefect of Slytherin House. It could well be that he was the best in that house, in that year. It does not make him best in the school in any way. We have to keep in mind that Ron was also made a Prefect and we know that he was not as smart as Hermione.

Draco was the Prefect of Slytherin House. It could well be that he was the best in that house, in that year. It does not make him best in the school in any way.

Right. I assume that he is a top student for Slytherin House. But that doesn't give us his overall standing for the entire class.

We have to keep in mind that Ron was also made a Prefect and we know that he was not as smart as Hermione.

That's a good point about Prefect Ron. He seems to get okay grades, but not great ones. We don't know how he compares to the rest of the Gryffindor boys, except Harry. So it is true that being made Prefect doesn't mean that someone is a top student overall, although I still think it is likely that Draco was a top Slytherin student. Like Ron, I think he must have been doing at least okay.

Right. I assume that he is a top student for Slytherin House. But that doesn't give us his overall standing for the entire class.



That's a good point about Prefect Ron. He seems to get okay grades, but not great ones. We don't know how he compares to the rest of the Gryffindor boys, except Harry. So it is true that being made Prefect doesn't mean that someone is a top student overall, although I still think it is likely that Draco was a top Slytherin student. Like Ron, I think he must have been doing at least okay.

Of course someone had to be Prefect of Slytherin House. Perhaps Draco was just the best to be had. There doesn't seem to have been a lot of choice for that year. The most intelligent of the rest would seem to be Blaise and he doesn't seem to want to mix with a lot of the students. Draco may have been all that was available.

It seemed to me like Lucius was exaggerating when he said that's all Draco maybe fit for. I think his marks were disappointing because he knew someone of his son was capable of doing much better.

I always thought Lucius was projecting in that scene in CoS. What's a Death Eater but a thug and criminal? What had Lucius' Death Eating past earned but a tainted reputation that he had to spend a lot of money trying to fix? And now he had to spend his day trying to unload all the dark objects he had because the Ministry would be once again raiding the Manor.

What I take away from that scene is Lucius saying he doesn't want Draco to grow up to follow him.

Draco has a cool side? I have to confess that after reading the entire series I never saw one.

Well, he tried to save Goyle and wouldn't leave him behind in the RoR. That's about the coolest thing he's ever done. But otherwise, I agree. I see no reason why Harry would have wanted to be Draco's friend or that they could have sustained a friendship. It's not about Ron, it's about Harry and Draco. If they didn't fight over Ron it would have been Hagrid, or Voldemort, or Harry's mother, or Muggleborns in general.

The most intelligent of the rest would seem to be Blaise and he doesn't seem to want to mix with a lot of the students.

JKR has said that Theodore Nott was far more clever than Draco but also described him as a loner and I'm sure prefects had to be involved and somewhat outgoing. It's more of a leadership position than an academic one which explains why Draco and Ron were chosen over equally bright but perhaps not as sociable boys like Blaise, Theodore, and Dean.

I always thought Lucius was projecting in that scene in CoS. What's a Death Eater but a thug and criminal? What had Lucius' Death Eating past earned but a tainted reputation that he had to spend a lot of money trying to fix? And now he had to spend his day trying to unload all the dark objects he had because the Ministry would be once again raiding the Manor.

What I take away from that scene is Lucius saying he doesn't want Draco to grow up to follow him.

That is the best description I have ever read of a DE. Pity Lucius didn't say it flat out to Draco.

Well, he tried to save Goyle and wouldn't leave him behind in the RoR. That's about the coolest thing he's ever done. But otherwise, I agree. I see no reason why Harry would have wanted to be Draco's friend or that they could have sustained a friendship. It's not about Ron, it's about Harry and Draco. If they didn't fight over Ron it would have been Hagrid, or Voldemort, or Harry's mother, or Muggleborns in general.

I always thought that Goyle and Draco had probably been together and even Draco couldn't let Goyle drop into the fire. He isn't a total waste of space. If it didn't cost him anything he would be quite capable of hanging onto Goyle and in that situation, misery certainly would have wanted company

JKR has said that Theodore Nott was far more clever than Draco but also described him as a loner and I'm sure prefects had to be involved and somewhat outgoing. It's more of a leadership position than an academic one which explains why Draco and Ron were chosen over equally bright but perhaps not as sociable boys like Blaise, Theodore, and Dean.

That's about how I see it. Draco would have been the best that would actually do the job in that year.

If it didn't cost him anything he would be quite capable of hanging onto Goyle

It didn't in the end but Draco didn't know that. He could have run just like Crabbe did, but he went back for Goyle, dragged him around and on top of that tower of chairs. And Goyle was no pixie and Draco was always described as very skinny so that must have taken a lot of effort and slowed Draco down.

And when Harry first tries to grab Draco to pull him onto the broom, he can't lift both Draco and Goyle. But rather than letting Goyle go, Draco holds onto him and lets Harry's hand slip. Now, you and I know Harry would have tried again and again until he got them out of there but Draco didn't know that. They had despised each other for years and the last time Harry saw Draco, his parents were getting ready to turn him over to Voldemort. That could have been his one and only chance at rescue for all he knew. And he still kept Goyle with him.

Well... I think that Draco is in fact intelligent... how much? we don't know. I guess he never had the opportunity to show it in class, or in any way.
If he had a problem, instead of thinkin a way to solve it, he would just go to daddy, and he will fix it.


Originally Posted by winky45
Sometimes I thought, the reason why we see Draco in such a negative way is because Harry had decided to choose Ron as friend rather than him, thus make Draco Harry's arch rival from the very beginning.

I always think: what if Harry had accepted Draco's friendship back then on Hogwarts Express when he was 11 years old, the story could be quite different. Maybe we will see the cool side of Draco, we will see his struggles in a more personal level when he was made to plan for Dumbledore's murder, and maybe the whole view of him will be more in a positive light.

I couldn't agree more.
We all learn about Draco from Harry's point of view, which is not objective because of the fact that Harry doesn't like him so much.
Also, we coul'd never know the real Draco. He acted the way he did because that was the way he was rased. That was the way he had to be to please his father. We can't know if he acted like a bully because he was really like that, or because he acted to be someone he was not to please his family.
At some point, I think that Draco was a little mean. He used every way to achive what he wanted. Like when he wanted to ruin Hagrid's teaching career at PoA. But it just show us that he would do anything to get what he wants. And, well... at some point, it is good that a person knows what he wants and tries as hard as he can to get it.

Moreover, I don't think he was a bad person with bad means. He couldn't kill Dumbledore. And I think that even if he cursed him with the "Avada Kedabra", not a single hair would fall from Dumbledore's head. Just like dear Bellatrix said, "you need to mean in".

Well... I think that Draco is in fact intelligent... how much? we don't know. I guess he never had the opportunity to show it in class, or in any way.
If he had a problem, instead of thinkin a way to solve it, he would just go to daddy, and he will fix it.

I couldn't agree more.
We all learn about Draco from Harry's point of view, which is not objective because of the fact that Harry doesn't like him so much.
Also, we coul'd never know the real Draco. He acted the way he did because that was the way he was rased. That was the way he had to be to please his father. We can't know if he acted like a bully because he was really like that, or because he acted to be someone he was not to please his family.
At some point, I think that Draco was a little mean. He used every way to achive what he wanted. Like when he wanted to ruin Hagrid's teaching career at PoA. But it just show us that he would do anything to get what he wants. And, well... at some point, it is good that a person knows what he wants and tries as hard as he can to get it.

Moreover, I don't think he was a bad person with bad means. He couldn't kill Dumbledore. And I think that even if he cursed him with the "Avada Kedabra", not a single hair would fall from Dumbledore's head. Just like dear Bellatrix said, "you need to mean in".

I would have to disagree with 'Harry's point of view'. The story is told in the third person point of view that is omniscient. The narrator is impartial in recounting how Draco appears to Harry, and the simple fact is that Harry does not like how Draco speaks about how some people are the right sort and some are not. Harry has grown up with this attitude from the Dursleys and has no trouble understanding the bigotry lying underneath the words. Like he tells Draco, he can make up his own mind. It is unfortunate that such a young child is already showing signs of bigotry but Harry only reacts to the words that Draco speaks. Here is the entire exchange.

"Hello," said the boy, "Hogwarts, too?"
"Yes," said Harry.
"My father's next door buying my books and mother's up the street looking at wands," said the boy. He had a bored, drawling voice.
"Then I'm going to drag them off to took at racing brooms. I don't see why first years can't have their own. I think I'll bully father into getting me one and I'll smuggle it in somehow."
Harry was strongly reminded of Dudley.
"Have you got your own broom?" the boy went on.
"No," said Harry.
"Play Quidditch at all?"
"No," Harry said again, wondering what on earth Quidditch could be.
"I do -- Father says it's a crime if I'm not picked to play for my house, and I must say, I agree. Know what house you'll be in yet?"
"No," said Harry, feeling more stupid by the minute.
"Well, no one really knows until they get there, do they, but I know I'll be in Slytherin, all our family have been -- imagine being in Hufflepuff, I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?"
"Mmm," said Harry, wishing he could say something a bit more interesting.
"I say, look at that man!" said the boy suddenly, nodding toward the front window. Hagrid was standing there, grinning at Harry and pointing
at two large ice creams to show he couldn't come in.
"That's Hagrid," said Harry, pleased to know something the boy didn't. "He works at Hogwarts."
"Oh," said the boy, "I've heard of him. He's a sort of servant, isn't he?"
"He's the gamekeeper," said Harry. He was liking the boy less and less every second.
"Yes, exactly. I heard he's a sort of savage -- lives in a hut on the school grounds and every now and then he gets drunk, tries to do magic, and ends up setting fire to his bed."
"I think he's brilliant," said Harry coldly.
"Do you?" said the boy, with a slight sneer. "Why is he with you? Where are your parents?"
"They're dead," said Harry shortly. He didn't feel much like going into the matter with this boy.
"Oh, sorry," said the other,. not sounding sorry at all. "But they were our kind, weren't they?"
"They were a witch and wizard, if that's what you mean."
"I really don't think they should let the other sort in, do you? They're just not the same, they've never been brought up to know our ways. Some of them have never even heard of Hogwarts until they get the letter, imagine. I think they should keep it in the old wizarding families. What's your surname, anyway?" JK Rowling The Philosopher's Stone

The way Draco speaks is very revealing of his character. He is disparaging of,
1) the rules of the school. He is going to bully his father into buying him a broom, because the rules do not apply to him.
2) Hagrid. He is frankly insulting Hagrid who has been nothing but kind and generous to Harry, and Harry already looks on Hagrid as a Friend. So no, Harry is not inclined to look well on someone who insults someone who is at this time the only person in the world who has treated Harry with kindness and respect. Frankly I would think less of Harry if he did want to be friends with Draco at this point
2) Draco is then rude to Hufflepuff House. Harry may nor know what Hufflepuff House is, but he knows when it is being insulted.
3) Then Draco goes on to insult people who have just received their letters and have never heard of Hogwarts. Harry is one of these people and this boy has just insulted him to his face.
At this time Harry is ignorant of blood prejudice but Draco has just given him a quick lesson. It is interesting that Draco at this time does not offer friendship to Harry, because at this time Draco does not know who Harry's parents are and he does not know if Harry is worthy of Draco's friendship. When he does offer it to Harry, unfortunately Harry already knows Draco's opinion on those he thinks are beneath him. Draco already revealed that about himself. This is the narrator's descriptions of the conversation. Harry speaks coldly, Draco sneers. Harry speaks shortly, about his parents being dead and Draco doesn't sound sorry at all. IMO, this is not Harry's point of view, but the narrative voice describing exactly how the conversation is spoken.
I think well of Harry at this time. He is not being unfriendly to Draco, IMO he is reserving his judgement about this boy who has made such a poor first impression on him. Draco condemns himself out of his own mouth.
It's true that Draco could not bring himself to commit murder when he had Dumbledore at his mercy. I am not too impressed by the fact that he found murder difficult, IMO everybody should feel that murder is difficult. He doesn't object when Snape performs the act on his behalf. I get the feeling that Draco didn't object to Dumbledore being murdered, he just didn't want to be the one who did the murder.

At some point, I think that Draco was a little mean. He used every way to achive what he wanted.

You wouldn't like a white kid who went up to a 12 year old black girl and called her a ****** and thats exactly what Draco did to Hermione. I think 'a little mean' doesn't cover how bad Malfoy was.


Like when he wanted to ruin Hagrid's teaching career at PoA. But it just show us that he would do anything to get what he wants. And, well... at some point, it is good that a person knows what he wants and tries as hard as he can to get it.

It depends on what you want as to whether or not it can be considered a positive quality. What Draco wanted (and what he was willing to do to get what he wanted) is certainly not a positive thing.

I would have to disagree with 'Harry's point of view'. The story is told in the third person point of view that is omniscient. The narrator is impartial in recounting how Draco appears to Harry, and the simple fact is that Harry does not like how Draco speaks about how some people are the right sort and some are not. Harry has grown up with this attitude from the Dursleys and has no trouble understanding the bigotry lying underneath the words. Like he tells Draco, he can make up his own mind. It is unfortunate that such a young child is already showing signs of bigotry but Harry only reacts to the words that Draco speaks. Here is the entire exchange.


The way Draco speaks is very revealing of his character. He is disparaging of,
1) the rules of the school. He is going to bully his father into buying him a broom, because the rules do not apply to him.
2) Hagrid. He is frankly insulting Hagrid who has been nothing but kind and generous to Harry, and Harry already looks on Hagrid as a Friend. So no, Harry is not inclined to look well on someone who insults someone who is at this time the only person in the world who has treated Harry with kindness and respect. Frankly I would think less of Harry if he did want to be friends with Draco at this point
2) Draco is then rude to Hufflepuff House. Harry may nor know what Hufflepuff House is, but he knows when it is being insulted.
3) Then Draco goes on to insult people who have just received their letters and have never heard of Hogwarts. Harry is one of these people and this boy has just insulted him to his face.
At this time Harry is ignorant of blood prejudice but Draco has just given him a quick lesson. It is interesting that Draco at this time does not offer friendship to Harry, because at this time Draco does not know who Harry's parents are and he does not know if Harry is worthy of Draco's friendship. When he does offer it to Harry, unfortunately Harry already knows Draco's opinion on those he thinks are beneath him. Draco already revealed that about himself. This is the narrator's descriptions of the conversation. Harry speaks coldly, Draco sneers. Harry speaks shortly, about his parents being dead and Draco doesn't sound sorry at all. IMO, this is not Harry's point of view, but the narrative voice describing exactly how the conversation is spoken.
I think well of Harry at this time. He is not being unfriendly to Draco, IMO he is reserving his judgement about this boy who has made such a poor first impression on him. Draco condemns himself out of his own mouth.
It's true that Draco could not bring himself to commit murder when he had Dumbledore at his mercy. I am not too impressed by the fact that he found murder difficult, IMO everybody should feel that murder is difficult. He doesn't object when Snape performs the act on his behalf. I get the feeling that Draco didn't object to Dumbledore being murdered, he just didn't want to be the one who did the murder.



I agree with you in some points. I'm not trying to say that Draco is a good guy with good intentions, because he's not.
We know what he sais, how insulting he can be, the conversations ha has, either with Harry and other people. But, my point is, that we don't know what he is thinking. I guess, that in some point, he is that rude and that bully, because his father expect from him to be like that. But, it could be, that he doesn't enjoy it that much, and we can see in DH that he is capable of caring about people. And someone doesn't just "snap" from being cold and heartless, to try to save someone's life.

In my opinion, Draco is not "bad" but instead not quite sensitive. Harry tells him his parents were murdered, and he doesn't really care. And I don't think either that Draco objected about Dumbledore being murdered, and he doesn't even feel sorry about it. He never was a Dumbledore's big fan. Draco likes to be above everyone, he thinks he's supperior, and likes to be the favourite. Dumbledore claimed that half-bloods and and muggle borns are equal to pure bloods, which Draco highly disagreed on that. Also Dumbledore "liked" Harry, and Draco hated it.
Draco needs to be in control, he enjoys power and to tell people what to do. He expect from people to do what he says, and do everything to get what he wants.

IMO the little nod he did to the trio in the epilogue, is a huge step that shows that deeply he is greatfull to Harry. At the end, Draco is very proud, and it was probably very diffuclt for him to do just a nod.

I guess I just try to see the little things in Draco's personality that points that, deeply, he's not that bad.

You wouldn't like a white kid who went up to a 12 year old black girl and called her a ****** and thats exactly what Draco did to Hermione. I think 'a little mean' doesn't cover how bad Malfoy was.
I said he was mean trying to achive what he wants.
Calling hermione mud-blood was just being evil. But, kids repeat what they hear at home. And a 12-year-old kid still doesn't know the effect of the things they day and do. Not just in HP.



It depends on what you want as to whether or not it can be considered a positive quality. What Draco wanted (and what he was willing to do to get what he wanted) is certainly not a positive thing.

It is a possitive quality if it is used in a possitive way for the possitive achivement.
Every quality can be either possitive and negative, it just dependes on the way a specific persons uses it.

I said he was mean trying to achive what he wants.
Calling hermione mud-blood was just being evil. But, kids repeat what they hear at home. And a 12-year-old kid still doesn't know the effect of the things they day and do. Not just in HP.


A 12 year old might not but i think Draco continued to call Hermione a mudblood right throughout the series. Malfoy also spent years taunting Harry about the death of his parents. What kind of person does that?



It is a possitive quality if it is used in a possitive way for the possitive achivement.
Every quality can be either possitive and negative, it just dependes on the way a specific persons uses it.

Well Malfoy always seemed to use his positive qualities for evil. Even when he did something good (not telling Bellatrix it was Harry) it was always for self serving reasons.

Well Malfoy always seemed to use his positive qualities for evil. Even when he did something good (not telling Bellatrix it was Harry) it was always for self serving reasons.

I don't think this was done for a self-serving reason. What would that reason be? He would have risen in Voldemort's favour if he'd handed Harry over to him by recognising him. I think he realises that, but can't bring himself to contribute to someone's death so directly and in plainly, without room for rationalizations and coming up with excuses - I think this is an element in his overall realization of what being a DE actually means and his being completely horrified by it. He ultimately finds himself incapable of being that evil, and his reluctance to hand Harry over is one of a few examples of that, in my opinion.

A 12 year old might not but i think Draco continued to call Hermione a mudblood right throughout the series. Malfoy also spent years taunting Harry about the death of his parents. What kind of person does that?

Probably a person who was rised by death eaters, which the entire family were death eaters, and his lovely aunt bellatrix was the biggest DE ever?




Well Malfoy always seemed to use his positive qualities for evil. Even when he did something good (not telling Bellatrix it was Harry) it was always for self serving reasons.

What I said in the previous post is, but I'm sorry if I wans't clear, is that there is no such thing as "possitive" or "negative" qualities. Everyone has their qualities, and it's their decision how they used them. In this case, Draco used it in the negative way. But motivation is not bad, it's just bad if you use it for a bad purpose.

I would have to disagree with 'Harry's point of view'. The story is told in the third person point of view that is omniscient.

Actually, only a few chapters in the series are told using 3rd person omniscient ("The Boy Who Lived," "The Other Minister," "Spinner's End," and "The Dark Lord Ascending" come to mind).

The bulk of the story is told using 3rd person limited - limited to Harry's consciousness and perspectives. We see almost everything through Harry's eyes - just as we see everything through Lambert Strether's eyes in Henry James' The Ambassadors.

That said, I'm not sure how much impact the limited point of view has on Draco's story. Not having personally made an in-depth study of Draco's story and the impact point of view has on it, I'll just recount a few (vague) impressions here.

For the most part, I think, the limited point of view simply recounts Draco's actions. I don't recall a lot of intricate speculation about Draco prior to HBP. Harry's intricate speculation concerning other characters is frequently one of the forms of narrative misdirection that JKR uses throughout the series. But in HBP, Harry's speculation about Draco is correct. Draco has indeed become a Death Eater, and he is up to something.

There is one way I can think of in which point of view does impact Draco's story. Since the point of view is limited to Harry's consciousness, it never gives us any access to Draco's thoughts. Consequently, we never know until his dialogue with Dumbledore that his primary motivation for enacting the assassination plot is to save himself and his family from being killed, not to do something evil for evil's sake. Before that point, we - like Harry - might never have seriously considered that Draco truly loves his parents.

Personally, I always thought that it was clear that Draco wanted to impress his parents and that he liked to throw his father's name around. But it never occurred to me before "The Lightning Struck Tower" that he might do something evil not because he wanted to but because he feared for his parents' lives. That scene finally humanized Draco for me, and I think for Harry - which is what I think it was intended to do.

Without access to his thoughts, I don't think we ever fully know what drives Draco to do most of the things he does. We only see his actions. But I don't think there's any reason to believe that the limited point of view misreports his (or any other character's) actions. It can theoretically misinterpret the look on a character's face or the tone of a character's voice, but since Harry is a sane person, the limited point of view would never recount an action that did not factually occur. However, because it is limited to what Harry knows and perceives, I don't think it gives us much insight into what motivates other characters' actions.

By the way, here's a very brief Wikipedia comment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter#Structure_and_genre) about point of view in the Harry Potter series. It looks pretty accurate to me.

Well... I think that Draco is in fact intelligent... how much? we don't know. I guess he never had the opportunity to show it in class, or in any way.
If he had a problem, instead of thinkin a way to solve it, he would just go to daddy, and he will fix it.

:waves: Welcome to the forums, addie_ep! I have enjoyed your initial posts on this thread, it seems we see Draco similarly.

I don't think we get much of a sense of anyone's intelligence from the class scenes except Hermione, who is clearly the sort of student who really likes/needs to be recognized for her encyclopedic knowledge.

But I do think we have evidence to suggest Draco is intelligent. We see what he does when he can no longer turn to Dad with his problems in HBP. Presented with much of the same data as Dumbledore himself has, Draco is able to use it to come up with a plan to bring Death Eaters in to Hogwarts, something Dumbledore himself believed would not be possible in light of the security precautions he instituted.

We see what he does when he can no longer turn to Dad with his problems in HBP. Presented with much of the same data as Dumbledore himself has, Draco is able to use it to come up with a plan to bring Death Eaters in to Hogwarts, something Dumbledore himself believed would not be possible in light of the security precautions he instituted.

In addition, this is when he was under a great deal of pressure, he was having doubts and fears about his family's safety, and his heart wasn't entirely in it. That Draco shows a lot of Slytherin ingenuity under such strain is...well, surprising, actually, for a boy who has been spoiled and pampered for much of his life, but also very telling of what his mind is capable of coming up with.

Actually, only a few chapters in the series are told using 3rd person omniscient ("The Boy Who Lived," "The Other Minister," "Spinner's End," and "The Dark Lord Ascending" come to mind).

The bulk of the story is told using 3rd person limited - limited to Harry's consciousness and perspectives. We see almost everything through Harry's eyes - just as we see everything through Lambert Strether's eyes in Henry James' The Ambassadors.

That said, I'm not sure how much impact the limited point of view has on Draco's story. Not having personally made an in-depth study of Draco's story and the impact point of view has on it, I'll just recount a few (vague) impressions here.

For the most part, I think, the limited point of view simply recounts Draco's actions. I don't recall a lot of intricate speculation about Draco prior to HBP. Harry's intricate speculation concerning other characters is frequently one of the forms of narrative misdirection that JKR uses throughout the series. But in HBP, Harry's speculation about Draco is correct. Draco has indeed become a Death Eater, and he is up to something.

There is one way I can think of in which point of view does impact Draco's story. Since the point of view is limited to Harry's consciousness, it never gives us any access to Draco's thoughts. Consequently, we never know until his dialogue with Dumbledore that his primary motivation for enacting the assassination plot is to save himself and his family from being killed, not to do something evil for evil's sake. Before that point, we - like Harry - might never have seriously considered that Draco truly loves his parents.

Personally, I always thought that it was clear that Draco wanted to impress his parents and that he liked to throw his father's name around. But it never occurred to me before "The Lightning Struck Tower" that he might do something evil not because he wanted to but because he feared for his parents' lives. That scene finally humanized Draco for me, and I think for Harry - which is what I think it was intended to do.

Without access to his thoughts, I don't think we ever fully know what drives Draco to do most of the things he does. We only see his actions. But I don't think there's any reason to believe that the limited point of view misreports his (or any other character's) actions. It can theoretically misinterpret the look on a character's face or the tone of a character's voice, but since Harry is a sane person, the limited point of view would never recount an action that did not factually occur. However, because it is limited to what Harry knows and perceives, I don't think it gives us much insight into what motivates other characters' actions.

By the way, here's a very brief Wikipedia comment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter#Structure_and_genre) about point of view in the Harry Potter series. It looks pretty accurate to me.

The problem with this for me CC, is that if you cannot trust the narrator's voice to tell the truth, then I think you would have to stop reading and try to decide who's voice to trust. The narrative voice has to tell the truth as it knows it. It is then up to the author to provide another POV to contradict what we are told. I have no reason to dispute the description of Draco in the first book. His words and actions for me reveal his character very well. Of course he changes as he evolves into an adolescent, as do all the other characters. He is much more than the spoilt bully we see stealing Neville's Rememball just for the satisfaction of being mean to Neville. That he takes the ball is clear, why he takes the ball, for me is also clear. He likes to hurt people for fun.
Do all bullies stay the same. No, of course not. James evolves way past the adolescent prat he was in SWM. So Draco grows up, but for me he never loses that meanness of spirit I saw in the early books. I don't think he is very clever. He did mend the Vanishing Cabinet after about 8 months of working on it. I think necessity is the mother of invention there.
I guess it's clear that I don't think much of Draco, but he is the product of a bigoted family. What I don't like is that he believed in his heart what his family espoused. Unlike Sirius who always hated that same family's views or Regulus who learnt better, Draco never commits to either side. He just doesn't have the stomach to be a bad guy and he doesn't have the backbone to be a good guy. He is trapped by that same meanness of spirit into being nothing much of either. That is what I don't like about him.
Your last point, I like Wiki but it is not for me definative. Sometimes the facts on it can be just so wrong.

The problem with this for me CC, is that if you cannot trust the narrator's voice to tell the truth, then I think you would have to stop reading and try to decide who's voice to trust. The narrative voice has to tell the truth as it knows it.

The narrative voice can be unreliable. And precisely, the reader has to decide if he/she believes it or not. It does not imply that you must stop reading, it means you have to understand the text as the whole.

And i believe we were just discussing Draco's intelligence, not that he was a good guy. Even a bad guy can be extremely intelligent. In Draco's case, it isn't "extremely", but he isn't that bad, either.

My opinon, of course.

Even a bad guy can be extremely intelligent.

Paging Lord Voldemort :elaugh:

The problem with this for me CC, is that if you cannot trust the narrator's voice to tell the truth, then I think you would have to stop reading and try to decide who's voice to trust. The narrative voice has to tell the truth as it knows it. It is then up to the author to provide another POV to contradict what we are told. I have no reason to dispute the description of Draco in the first book. His words and actions for me reveal his character very well.

Actually, in my post I indicated that Harry's limited 3rd person point of view does not prevent us from getting a reasonably accurate picture of Draco - at least from the outside. We don't have access to the inner workings of Draco's mind, because we are only limited to what Harry perceives, so we grow in our understanding of Draco as Harry does. But since Harry is a sane person, we can feel confident that his limited point of view is reporting Draco's actions accurately. As it happens, even his speculation concerning Draco in HBP turns out to be accurate.

Actually, in my post I indicated that Harry's limited 3rd person point of view does not prevent us from getting a reasonably accurate picture of Draco - at least from the outside. We don't have access to the inner workings of Draco's mind, because we are only limited to what Harry perceives, so we grow in our understanding of Draco as Harry does. But since Harry is a sane person, we can feel confident that his limited point of view is reporting Draco's actions accurately. As it happens, even his speculation concerning Draco in HBP turns out to be accurate.

We don't get much of a look into Ron's, Hermione's, Ginny's, put in any character you like, mind set either. As this way of telling a story is the most common in literature, (in Pride and Prejudice we know what Lizzie thinks but not what Darcy thinks) I have to go with the omniscient narrator is saying exactly what the main character sees and hears accurately. So when that narrative voice says that Draco sneered, I believe that Draco sneered. If I start to subscribe motives that I have no way of confirming to a character then IMO I am not reading the author's book. I know that I am being strict here, but I think that it is important to differentiate the motives behind saying that the author wanted the reader to credit her characters with hidden motives. In the case of Draco I have to say if there are any motives other than what is presented in the text, then Rowling did a very good job of hiding those motives, because I can't find them anywhere in the first 5 books. In the later books there is more depth to Draco, that is when I really came to the conclusion I stated earlier. Draco lacks the spine to be either truly bad or truly good. This lack of spine explains for me his actions as a child. His intelligence really has little to do with his character. As mentioned earlier evil can be very intelligent, or to put it another way moral character has nothing to do with intelligence. Draco spends the first 5 books wanting to be a big bad guy, when he gets the chance he finds being a big bad guy is not the job it's cracked up to be, but he lacks the moral fibre to stop. He, IMO is one of the most pathetic figures in the books. IMO, Draco shows up what Pure-Blood mania is all about in the end. A pretty cardboard man, clinging on to the only thing in his life that he can cling onto. His lineage, that in the end is worthless. I would hope that he would find some backbone later in life, but I don't hold out much hope

We don't get much of a look into Ron's, Hermione's, Ginny's, put in any character you like, mind set either. As this way of telling a story is the most common in literature, (in Pride and Prejudice we know what Lizzie thinks but not what Darcy thinks) I have to go with the omniscient narrator is saying exactly what the main character sees and hears accurately. So when that narrative voice says that Draco sneered, I believe that Draco sneered. If I start to subscribe motives that I have no way of confirming to a character then IMO I am not reading the author's book. I know that I am being strict here, but I think that it is important to differentiate the motives behind saying that the author wanted the reader to credit her characters with hidden motives. In the case of Draco I have to say if there are any motives other than what is presented in the text, then Rowling did a very good job of hiding those motives, because I can't find them anywhere in the first 5 books. In the later books there is more depth to Draco, that is when I really came to the conclusion I stated earlier. Draco lacks the spine to be either truly bad or truly good. This lack of spine explains for me his actions as a child. His intelligence really has little to do with his character. As mentioned earlier evil can be very intelligent, or to put it another way moral character has nothing to do with intelligence. Draco spends the first 5 books wanting to be a big bad guy, when he gets the chance he finds being a big bad guy is not the job it's cracked up to be, but he lacks the moral fibre to stop. He, IMO is one of the most pathetic figures in the books. IMO, Draco shows up what Pure-Blood mania is all about in the end. A pretty cardboard man, clinging on to the only thing in his life that he can cling onto. His lineage, that in the end is worthless. I would hope that he would find some backbone later in life, but I don't hold out much hope


On the books, we do get Harry's POV, it doesn't mean it's accurate, but be only read that Harry heard Draco this.. or saw Draco that.
I think Draco is really misunderstood. In PS he talks to Harry (without knowing it was him), he didn't care his parents were dead, he cared if they were "like us" - pure bloods. I know this souns mean, and also I'm not saying it's not mean, but we have to consider that this boy talking is only 11 years old!
What does he know about anything? He acts that way because his father told him to, this is the way he is supposed to be. As time goes by, and he starts to growing up, he sticks to being a bully. And realy, what else can he do?
I rather to think, that Draco is either not bad and not good. He desn't chose Voldemort's side, but he doesn't chose Harry's side either. And I think this shows that he's not as bad as we thought of him all the way.
He truly loved his parents and did evertyhing for their sakes. Any "bad" would do that.
He might be not perfect, and he did a lot of mistakes. But no one is perfect. And I think if was in his place I will act just like he did all the way... But that is just my opinion.

What does he know about anything? He acts that way because his father told him to, this is the way he is supposed to be. As time goes by, and he starts to growing up, he sticks to being a bully. And realy, what else can he do?


Upbringing can't be a excuse forever. Sirius was in the same situation and he got out.



I rather to think, that Draco is either not bad and not good. He desn't chose Voldemort's side, but he doesn't chose Harry's side either. And I think this shows that he's not as bad as we thought of him all the way.
He truly loved his parents and did evertyhing for their sakes. Any "bad" would do that.


Just because Draco can't kill doesn't mean he doesn't support Voldemort's goals. I don't think Malfoy would have a problem with someone else killing Hermione and he didn't really seem to have a problem with someone else killing Dumbledore. Draco isn't a killer but that doesn't mean he doesn't support the killings of blood traitors, mudblood's and muggles.

Stalin wasn't a killer either but that didn't mean he didn't have a problem ordering the deaths of millions. Just because he didn't physically kill someone doesn't make him less evil.

On the books, we do get Harry's POV, it doesn't mean it's accurate, but be only read that Harry heard Draco this.. or saw Draco that.
I think Draco is really misunderstood. In PS he talks to Harry (without knowing it was him), he didn't care his parents were dead, he cared if they were "like us" - pure bloods. I know this souns mean, and also I'm not saying it's not mean, but we have to consider that this boy talking is only 11 years old!
What does he know about anything? He acts that way because his father told him to, this is the way he is supposed to be. As time goes by, and he starts to growing up, he sticks to being a bully. And realy, what else can he do?
I rather to think, that Draco is either not bad and not good. He desn't chose Voldemort's side, but he doesn't chose Harry's side either. And I think this shows that he's not as bad as we thought of him all the way.
He truly loved his parents and did evertyhing for their sakes. Any "bad" would do that.
He might be not perfect, and he did a lot of mistakes. But no one is perfect. And I think if was in his place I will act just like he did all the way... But that is just my opinion.

He isn't 11 years old at the end of Deathly Hallows. He still supports Voldemort and he attacks Harry along with Crabbe and Goyle. This is after he had seen the murder of Charity Burbage and heard the death sentence pronounced on his cousin. The fact that he is very ineffective as a villain does not make him a hero or even admirable. After all his lack of success was not for lack of trying. Far from it, he is a failure at both.
It's very true that no one is perfect, but it takes more than a lack of success at villainy to put you on the right side of the moral divide.

Upbringing can't be a excuse forever. Sirius was in the same situation and he got out.




Just because Draco can't kill doesn't mean he doesn't support Voldemort's goals. I don't think Malfoy would have a problem with someone else killing Hermione and he didn't really seem to have a problem with someone else killing Dumbledore. Draco isn't a killer but that doesn't mean he doesn't support the killings of blood traitors, mudblood's and muggles.

Stalin wasn't a killer either but that didn't mean he didn't have a problem ordering the deaths of millions. Just because he didn't physically kill someone doesn't make him less evil.

I don't think that by the end of HBP Draco would have wanted anyone to kill Dumbledore or Hermione. I think this time is when he began to see that what he believed was wrong. In Deathly Hallows we see that he does not even want to identify Harry, Ron, and Hermione to his dad. That to me shows that he does not support what Voldemort is doing; he's just gotten into a situation he can't get out of.

Stalin wasn't a killer either but that didn't mean he didn't have a problem ordering the deaths of millions.

This is both historically incorrect and a bad analogy to boot. There's a lot of people who say they wish someone would die and don't really mean it. Draco never had the power to order someone's death and certainly didn't have the ability to carry out such an order.

He still supports Voldemort and he attacks Harry along with Crabbe and Goyle.

Actually, no. Crabbe does most of the attacking, and Goyle some. Draco never fires at the Trio and spends a lot of time in the RoR trying to stop Crabbe from killing Harry. While I'm sure Draco believes he went in there to capture and that might have been part of the reason, given that he actually prevented Crabbe from successfully capturing Harry and seemed more focused on the diadem and his wand, I'm not sure if he was 100% committed to his own plan.

As for supporting Voldemort, while I think he once sincerely did support him, by the end of DH, I think he did it to save his own skin and his parents. Not a noble reason at all but when I think of things like Milgram Experiment and real-life parallels, it is a very human reason.

This is both historically incorrect and a bad analogy to boot. There's a lot of people who say they wish someone would die and don't really mean it. Draco never had the power to order someone's death and certainly didn't have the ability to carry out such an order.

I'm sorry to disagree with your opinion of Stalin, but feel I must. I think Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn might agree with me as well.

Actually, no. Crabbe does most of the attacking, and Goyle some. Draco never fires at the Trio and spends a lot of time in the RoR trying to stop Crabbe from killing Harry. While I'm sure Draco believes he went in there to capture and that might have been part of the reason, given that he actually prevented Crabbe from successfully capturing Harry and seemed more focused on the diadem and his wand, I'm not sure if he was 100% committed to his own plan.As for supporting Voldemort, while I think he once sincerely did support him, by the end of DH, I think he did it to save his own skin and his parents. Not a noble reason at all but when I think of things like Milgram Experiment and real-life parallels, it is a very human reason.[/QUOTE]

The only reason that Draco tried to stop anything was that he knew Voldemort wanted Harry taken alive. If Harry had been killed by his schoolfriends he probably thought he would have been held to blame He was there to support Crabbe and Goyle, he proved this when he pulled Crabbe out of the firing line of Harry's spell. Yes, he didn't want his parents to come to harm. IMO that is not enough.
I think Draco wanted to survive, with his parents, whoever won. He was squeamish about Voldemort's methods, but I think if Voldemort had won Draco would have been waving a 'Support Voldemort's Racial Cleansing' banner. It's not enough to say he no longer wanted Voldemort to succeed, I believe that. I also believe he was hedging his bets in case he did and he did nothing, and I include his silence about the Trio in this. He did nothing positive to help defeat Voldemort and he gave passive aid if noithing else to the DEs and Voldemort.

I think birdie86 meants Stalin was an actual killer when she said the previous post's comment was historically incorrect; and the rest applied to Draco only. If I'm wrong, I hope birdie will correct me.

For myself, I don't think Draco had a desire to kill anyone. I think his DE career started off partly as "the family business" line, partly because he thought he'd get recognition/greatness this way, partly because he did believe in pureblood supremacy and thought this was his natural place to be. But I think by the middle of DH his disillusionment is pretty clear, and he seems quite unenthusiastic in his DE duties to me. Like Regulus, he saw what it was really all about and recoiled.

I think birdie86 meants Stalin was an actual killer when she said the previous post's comment was historically incorrect; and the rest applied to Draco only. If I'm wrong, I hope birdie will correct me.

For myself, I don't think Draco had a desire to kill anyone. I think his DE career started off partly as "the family business" line, partly because he thought he'd get recognition/greatness this way, partly because he did believe in pureblood supremacy and thought this was his natural place to be. But I think by the middle of DH his disillusionment is pretty clear, and he seems quite unenthusiastic in his DE duties to me. Like Regulus, he saw what it was really all about and recoiled.

I think that Draco's cold feet can be dated from the time that the Azkaban prison doors closed on his father and Harry said,

'Still, at least everyone knows what scumbags they are now'. JK Rowling; Order of the Pheonix.

Before this point in the story Draco was more than happy to be Umbridge's leader in the Inquistorial Squad. It is only after his father ends up in prison that the scales seem to have dropped from Draco's eyes. He still did his best to kill Dumbledore from a distance and he let the DE's into Hogwarts. I think Draco's disillusionment is very convenient in how he never seems to be disillusioned enough to leave and fight on the other side.

I'm sorry to disagree with your opinion of Stalin, but feel I must. I think Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn might agree with me as well.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Solzhenitsyn was aware of Stalin's past where he directly killed people as a revolutionary and part of the Bolshevik paramilitaries. So the Draco-Stalin comparison does not fit because Stalin did kill people directly and indirectly and Draco did neither!

The only reason that Draco tried to stop anything was that he knew Voldemort wanted Harry taken alive.

Sorry, but JKR (http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1572399/20071019/story.jhtml) and the rest of canon disagree with this interpretation. While I'm sure that was part of the reason, JKR clearly states that Draco had a change of heart in her interviews about him and this is shown in canon where he does not fight on Voldemort's side and does not take the necessary steps to capture Harry. As Crabbe, of all people, pointed out - a Crucio wouldn't kill Harry. But Draco was unwilling to do that.

As I recall, Snape pulled the same "don't Crucio Harry, the Dark Lord wants him alive" stunt at the end of HBP. Yet, I'm pretty sure that both Draco and Snape know one Crucio won't kill someone just temporarily incapacitate them. Which is what you should want if you are serious about capturing them.

he proved this when he pulled Crabbe out of the firing line of Harry's spell.

Crabbe is his friend. He's going to protect him. Even when Crabbe abandoned him in the RoR, Draco was still worried about him and distraught over his death. If Draco really wanted to support Crabbe, he would have followed his advice and Stunned or Crucio'd Harry and then - when he's knocked out or in pain - taken his wand back and taken Harry to the Dark Lord. He proved in HBP (and books before that) that he's more than capable of sneaking up on someone to get the better of them so it's not like he was incapable of taking the steps so obvious that Crabbe would suggest them.

If he had wanted to capture Harry, he would have done a better job. He wasn't even trying and Crabbe rightly noticed this.

He was squeamish about Voldemort's methods, but I think if Voldemort had won Draco would have been waving a 'Support Voldemort's Racial Cleansing' banner

He would have continued supporting Voldemort as long as both of his parents lived. I don't think he would have been enthusiastically waving a banner but he would have kept his head down and gone along with the program.

I think Draco's disillusionment is very convenient in how he never seems to be disillusioned enough to leave and fight on the other side.

There are very few people so committed to their beliefs that they would sentence their beloved parents to horrible deaths so they could follow their conscience. Bellatrix might be one of them but then again, even she was willing to keep some secrets from the Dark Lord to protect Narcissa.

And I think there's little doubt that Narcissa and Lucius would have suffered if Draco had defected, just like he would have suffered if either of his parents did the same.

birdi86;5539934]Yeah, I'm pretty sure Solzhenitsyn was aware of Stalin's past where he directly killed people as a revolutionary and part of the Bolshevik paramilitaries. So the Draco-Stalin comparison does not fit because Stalin did kill people directly and indirectly and Draco did neither!

If I misunderstood your point I apologise. I wouldn't be too sure about him never killing anyone personally after the Revolution, but you may be right. It's something we will never know for sure. He wasn't biggest mass murderer in history, but he's close to the top.

Sorry, but JKR (http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1572399/20071019/story.jhtml) and the rest of canon disagree with this interpretation. While I'm sure that was part of the reason, JKR clearly states that Draco had a change of heart in her interviews about him and this is shown in canon where he does not fight on Voldemort's side and does not take the necessary steps to capture Harry. As Crabbe, of all people, pointed out - a Crucio wouldn't kill Harry. But Draco was unwilling to do that.

Yes, I know about Rowling's interviews, but having read so many arguements here on the boards with the same people quoting her interviews to prove/disprove something in canon, I personally have decided to stick with the books for my opinions. Rowling's interviews are entertaining, but not IMO canon. And if in the future I say something to contradict that statement, please give me a written slap around the ear. I will deserve it. I do respect the author's opinion, I just think sometimes she is a little too off the cuff in interviews.

As I recall, Snape pulled the same "don't Crucio Harry, the Dark Lord wants him alive" stunt at the end of HBP. Yet, I'm pretty sure that both Draco and Snape know one Crucio won't kill someone just temporarily incapacitate them. Which is what you should want if you are serious about capturing them.

I don't see how that proves that Draco was doing it out of the goodness of his heart. It just means that Snape once said the same type of thing. DE's don't seem to be the sharpest of tacks around. They keep trying to kill Harry in front of people who have their own reasons for keeping him alive and not all of those reasons are altruistic.


Crabbe is his friend. He's going to protect him. Even when Crabbe abandoned him in the RoR, Draco was still worried about him and distraught over his death. If Draco really wanted to support Crabbe, he would have followed his advice and Stunned or Crucio'd Harry and then - when he's knocked out or in pain - taken his wand back and taken Harry to the Dark Lord. He proved in HBP (and books before that) that he's more than capable of sneaking up on someone to get the better of them so it's not like he was incapable of taking the steps so obvious that Crabbe would suggest them.

If he had wanted to capture Harry, he would have done a better job. He wasn't even trying and Crabbe rightly noticed this.

IMO these actions only support my contention that Draco was a half hearted villain. Crabbe at least was sincere in his villainy.

He would have continued supporting Voldemort as long as both of his parents lived. I don't think he would have been enthusiastically waving a banner but he would have kept his head down and gone along with the program.

You know what, I think you're right. I think behaviour like that to be abhorrant.

There are very few people so committed to their beliefs that they would sentence their beloved parents to horrible deaths so they could follow their conscience. Bellatrix might be one of them but then again, even she was willing to keep some secrets from the Dark Lord to protect Narcissa.

And I think there's little doubt that Narcissa and Lucius would have suffered if Draco had defected, just like he would have suffered if either of his parents did the same.

Perhaps I'm being hard on Draco. I keep thinking back to what Dumbledore said to him. That he would hide Draco and his family. There was an olive branch held out to him and he didn't have the courage to take it. Did he turn it down because he thought Dumbledore would not be able to help, or did he turn it down because if he and his family were hidden, they would not be the self important Malfoys anymore. For me there is just too little commitment on Draco's part to either side. I admire Crabbe more for his decision to commit to Voldemort. At least he made a decision even if it was the wrong one. That's my main problem with Draco. He doesn't have the courage of his convictions. He was convinced that Voldemort had the right agenda and he believed in Blood Purity, but when he got the flavour that perhaps a regime in which Voldemort ruled was not going to be his personal land of milk and honey, or even worse. That Voldemort might lose and his family be shown for 'scumbags' as Harry named them he did not have the courage to fight on the other side. Yes, his parents might have suffered, then again they may have weaseled out like they did after the war.

I don't see how that proves that Draco was doing it out of the goodness of his heart.

I think we're coming from two different places. To you, it seems Draco can either be a hero or a villain but he must be one or the other. Every comment seems determined to fit him in the latter box because he certainly won't fit in the former.

To me, he's probably one of the most human characters for how he responds to the situations he's in - by blustering and dithering and trying to keep him and his loved ones safe above all.

I think behaviour like that to be abhorrant.

That behavior is 99% of people in the first world. People talk about coulda woulda shoulda but in the end, we wear our clothes and use our goods made by child slaves in the third world, we ignore the wars and sufferings of millions caused largely by the first world's consumption of goods and destruction of the earth and its resources, we shake our heads over these sad thoughts and go to bed without giving it another thought. We routinely choose our comfort over the comfort of others.

And if we take Milgram's experiments to heart, most people would go even further to ensure their own comfort: In Milgram's first set of experiments, 65 percent (26 of 40)[1] of experiment participants administered the experiment's final massive 450-volt shock, though many were very uncomfortable doing so; at some point, every participant paused and questioned the experiment, some said they would refund the money they were paid for participating in the experiment. Only one participant steadfastly refused to administer shocks below the 300-volt level.[1]

It's not so much that Draco is unusual for how he reacted but that Harry and Dumbledore's Army and people like the Weasleys were so very extraordinary in how they acted. They could have ignored what was happening but chose not to. They are the exceptions, not Draco.

I don't think that by the end of HBP Draco would have wanted anyone to kill Dumbledore or Hermione. I think this time is when he began to see that what he believed was wrong. In Deathly Hallows we see that he does not even want to identify Harry, Ron, and Hermione to his dad. That to me shows that he does not support what Voldemort is doing; he's just gotten into a situation he can't get out of.

I would agree with that except in the Battle he is clearly on Voldemort's side. It's not ambiguous. It's not because he feels threatened. It's not because he can't get out. He's clearly on the other side as far as I can see. I do think at the very end when he's huddled with his parents he's possibly confused about his feelings. I think at this point he is not on Voldemort's side anymore, but before this, before Voldemort's death, he is clearly still on Voldemort's side. Yes, there is the scene at the Manor where he does identify the trio. That shows him wavering, but he doesn't change, yet.

I think birdie86 meants Stalin was an actual killer when she said the previous post's comment was historically incorrect; and the rest applied to Draco only. If I'm wrong, I hope birdie will correct me.

For myself, I don't think Draco had a desire to kill anyone. I think his DE career started off partly as "the family business" line, partly because he thought he'd get recognition/greatness this way, partly because he did believe in pureblood supremacy and thought this was his natural place to be. But I think by the middle of DH his disillusionment is pretty clear, and he seems quite unenthusiastic in his DE duties to me. Like Regulus, he saw what it was really all about and recoiled.

I agree, but he is not Regulus. Regulus turned around. Draco didn't. He was still in it and I do think part of him still wanted to be there.

People like to talk about Snape being the most complex character, but I think Draco can be just as complex if not more.

I think we're coming from two different places. To you, it seems Draco can either be a hero or a villain but he must be one or the other. Every comment seems determined to fit him in the latter box because he certainly won't fit in the former.

I can't agree more. I think it shouldn't be an only division: either he's a villian or he is a hero. Real life is not like that. Most of the people aren't like. If your not a hero, it doesn't mean you are a villian. In fact, it means you're normal. We all see things that are wrong, we all see things we disagree with them, an francly, most of the time we just ignore them, for ours sake.

To me, he's probably one of the most human characters for how he responds to the situations he's in - by blustering and dithering and trying to keep him and his loved ones safe above all.

Most of the people, if they where in his situtation, would react the same. He's not bad and not good. You don't need to be a hero in order to not be a villian. He is sacared, frustated, desillusioned, he has some kind of regrets, and he acts by that. He has a lot of things going in his mind, and that is what makes him human. Just a human being.



That behavior is 99% of people in the first world. People talk about coulda woulda shoulda but in the end, we wear our clothes and use our goods made by child slaves in the third world, we ignore the wars and sufferings of millions caused largely by the first world's consumption of goods and destruction of the earth and its resources, we shake our heads over these sad thoughts and go to bed without giving it another thought. We routinely choose our comfort over the comfort of others.

And if we take Milgram's experiments to heart, most people would go even further to ensure their own comfort:

It's not so much that Draco is unusual for how he reacted but that Harry and Dumbledore's Army and people like the Weasleys were so very extraordinary in how they acted. They could have ignored what was happening but chose not to. They are the exceptions, not Draco.

Draco comes out extraordinary in comparision to Harry, the Weasleys, the DA. But - if we compare him to common and ordinary people, he's not any different, even from us.

I can't agree more. I think it shouldn't be an only division: either he's a villian or he is a hero. Real life is not like that. Most of the people aren't like. If your not a hero, it doesn't mean you are a villian. In fact, it means you're normal. We all see things that are wrong, we all see things we disagree with them, an francly, most of the time we just ignore them, for ours sake.

Most of the people, if they where in his situtation, would react the same. He's not bad and not good. You don't need to be a hero in order to not be a villian. He is sacared, frustated, desillusioned, he has some kind of regrets, and he acts by that. He has a lot of things going in his mind, and that is what makes him human. Just a human being.

Draco comes out extraordinary in comparision to Harry, the Weasleys, the DA. But - if we compare him to common and ordinary people, he's not any different, even from us.

Perhaps that is why I don't cut him any slack. It's a slippery slope and if I cut Draco slack then I might cut myself slack. If I cut myself slack, what else will I excuse? Besides all of that aside, it doesn't change the fact that IMO Draco still sat on the fence and did a balancing act. As characters go, he among Harry's contempories is the best example of what not to do.

I would agree with that except in the Battle he is clearly on Voldemort's side. It's not ambiguous.

It's clear to you, not me. When I read that scene for the first time it was obvious to me that he was not really on Voldemort's side and that's how I still feel. I think he had changed his mind long before Voldemort died.


It's not because he feels threatened. It's not because he can't get out. He's clearly on the other side as far as I can see.

Emphasis mine. Obviously, I don't see it the same way

I agree, but he is not Regulus. Regulus turned around. Draco didn't. He was still in it and I do think part of him still wanted to be there.

People like to talk about Snape being the most complex character, but I think Draco can be just as complex if not more.

I agree that Draco is one of the most complex characters. That is why I don't just say he was on Voldemort's side the whole time. That's simplifying a complex situation.

As characters go, he among Harry's contempories is the best example of what not to do.

I'd say Crabbe has earned that title more. The kid seemed blood-thirsty in the RoR and we know from Neville that he and Goyle enjoyed torturing people.

As I see it, Draco wanted to be a villain. He wouldn't have described it as villainy, of course, but he accepted and supported the torture and disdain the Death Eaters showed towards human beings at the World Cup. He admired those people! When he was expected to commit cruelties himself it turned out that he couldn't do it. He was okay with smaller things like breaking Harry's nose but he was not okay with murder and he couldn't be casual about it. That, in my view, makes a difference. Draco isn't evil. But I think he's an opportunist with the tendency to go the easiest way, even if that means harm to other characters. As long as he doesn't have to do it himself.

Opportunist is the perfect way to describe Draco, really.

I'd say Crabbe has earned that title more. The kid seemed blood-thirsty in the RoR and we know from Neville that he and Goyle enjoyed torturing people.

Ah, but at least he had the courage of his convictions. True he was a repulsive, large, blood thirsty individual, but he didn't sit on the fence. He was honest in his actions, Draco wasn't. You would know where you stood with Crabbe, under his foot if he had the chance. Draco might smile in your face, but I think he would be more likely to stab you in the back, half heartedly, but enough to make it sting.

Ah, but at least he had the courage of his convictions.

Yeah, I've never really understood this logic. There is no "courage" in attacking those more vulnerable than you. None. I see nothing admirable about actively participating in the degradation and torture of others. I find the idea of enjoying it repulsive. I'd rather the fence-sitters since they could be persuaded to change or to back off. The others are a lost cause.

Yeah, I've never really understood this logic. There is no "courage" in attacking those more vulnerable than you. None. I see nothing admirable about actively participating in the degradation and torture of others. I find the idea of enjoying it repulsive. I'd rather the fence-sitters since they could be persuaded to change or to back off. The others are a lost cause.

I was just about to say the same. Even though I don't actually view Draco as a fence sitter, I think, considering how Draco started, that would be better than being fully committed to Voldemort. And I agree that Crabbe and Goyle were not courageous; they were just bullies.

We don't get much of a look into Ron's, Hermione's, Ginny's, put in any character you like, mind set either. As this way of telling a story is the most common in literature, (in Pride and Prejudice we know what Lizzie thinks but not what Darcy thinks)

Okay, here's my last time here with these definitions ("And there was great rejoicing!" - Monty Python :lol: ):

An omniscient narrator will show and tell the audience things beyond what the lead character can see, perceive, or know. In the Harry Potter series, this happens in only a handful of scenes - scenes in which Harry is not present (or is a baby) and has no access via his scar. Even if an omniscient narrator does not dip in and out of the minds of a variety of characters, the omniscient narrator will give the audience access to information (or scenery) beyond the knowledge or perceptions of the protagonist (i.e., lead character).

Having access to the story only through the thoughts, perceptions, and feelings of a single character is known as 3rd person limited. We only know as much as the lead character knows. We only see what the lead character sees. Our awareness grows as the lead character's grows. If the lead character makes a faulty assumption (as Harry does concerning who is trying to steal the Philosopher's Stone in PS/SS), the reader will typically get dragged along into the faulty assumption, assuming it to be the truth. This is the narrative technique used throughout the bulk of the Harry Potter series.

As I mentioned upthread, I have no reason to believe that Harry's limited point of view is making faulty assumptions regarding Draco. It is merely responding to impressions that are limited to Draco's public persona. Since Harry is not close to Draco (as he is to Ron and Hermione), this is the only part of Draco that Harry - and by extension, the audience - has access to.

Does this mean that there is a marked difference between Draco's public persona (i.e. what we see) and what's going on on the inside? No, not necessarily. It just means that we don't really know the private Draco - whereas we get a much clearer picture of the private Ron because Ron shares his thoughts and fears and vulnerability (and dormitory!) with Harry.

Is this a problem? Should we have more access to Draco? No, I don't think so. Rowling does this for a reason - in order, I think, to conceal Draco's humanity so that she can reveal it somewhat later in the game. What she reveals may be a stunted humanity. But I think it's certainly something more human than the (metaphorically) mustache-twirling villain boy we've seen in the earlier books. :)

In the Astronomy Tower scene, Harry finally sees more of what actually makes Draco tick. And as it happens, Draco does not wish to kill Dumbledore. He is not a lover of evil for evil's sake (as Harry's limited point of view has led the reader to believe up to this point). And he is a far more vulnerable human being than Harry would have imagined.

I agree with Moriath's comment that Draco wanted to be a villain (or as Tom Felton puts it, "The Harry Potter of the Dark Side" :) ), and a villain is how we've always perceived him up to this point in the narrative. But as it turns out, Draco is not really up to it. He is carrying out the assassination plot out of fear for himself and his family. The "love of family" part of that motive is not something that I think Harry ever would have predicted if he had not heard it with his own ears.

I personally don't think this new information about Draco (i.e., that he cares this deeply for his family) is a new character development for Draco. I think it's just new information about Draco that has been concealed from Harry and the audience before now. And as for Draco not really having it in him to be a killer, well, I think that's new information for Harry, the audience... and Draco! :elaugh:

If I start to subscribe motives that I have no way of confirming to a character then IMO I am not reading the author's book. I know that I am being strict here, but I think that it is important to differentiate the motives behind saying that the author wanted the reader to credit her characters with hidden motives. In the case of Draco I have to say if there are any motives other than what is presented in the text, then Rowling did a very good job of hiding those motives, because I can't find them anywhere in the first 5 books.

Beyond Draco's love for his family, I'm not sure what other motives, or what hidden motives, I was ascribing to Draco. What Rowling is concealing, I think, is not so much hidden motives as the character's hidden humanity. Consequently, in the Astronomy Tower, Rowling has Harry (and by extension, the audience) witness a new dimension open up with regard to the character. After he proves himself no killer, Draco will lose his status as a key antagonist in the series and, I believe, become more of a desperate and pathetic figure. It seems pretty clear imo that after that point, Harry starts to pity him - something that Harry (and by extension, most of the audience) probably never would have anticipated prior to the Draco "reveal" in the Astronomy Tower.

Here, in a nutshell, is my stance on Draco so far:

Do I find Draco admirable? No.
Do I agree with Moriath and Birdi that he's an opportunist? Yes.
Do I think he's pretty intelligent? Yes.
Do I think he uses his intelligence wisely? No.
Do I think he's evil? No - I think he's a failed villain who does some evil things.
Do I like Draco? Not very much.
Do I hate Draco? Not any more.
Do I find him all-too-human? Yes, once we begin to learn more about him.
Am I a Draco fan? No - though I love Tom Felton in the role.

I think one of the most telling scenes for Draco is when Harry finds him crying in the boy's bathroom. This is the last thing that we would expect from Draco Malfoy, the self-confindent egotist.

We see him on the train returning to Hogwarts full of false bravado because he has been "honored" by the Dark Lord and assigned to kill Dumbledore. But, we also see him without his usual ability to threaten, "wait until my father hears about this," because, not only has Lucius fallen from grace, but, has been sent to Azkaban. What an embarassment that must have been, and, IMO, it leaves him feeling vulnerable and more open to the lure of being a big-shot DE.

Then, when it becomes apparent that his own and his family's fates rest on his shoulders, I think the pressure becomes almost unbearable. That's when we see him break down. That was the first time I actually felt sorry for him. He was still just a boy, and, IMO, a lot less mature than his 17 years because of being coddled and protected so much.

To follow CC's "in a nutshell" summation:

Do I find Draco admirable? No.
Do I agree with Moriath and Birdi that he's an opportunist? Yes.
Do I think he's pretty intelligent? Definitely.
Do I think he uses his intelligence wisely? Absolutely not.
Do I think he's evil? No, I think he was an arrogant boy who got lured into something that was far beyond what he anticipated.
Do I like Draco? No, but, I find his character interesting and I feel sorry for him.
Do I hate Draco? Not after HBP.
Do I find him all-too-human? Yes. Like so many other characters throughout the series, he is seriously flawed. But, like so many others, he is redeemed by the fact that he can love, and that he is loved.
Am I a Draco fan? No. I, too, love what Tom Felton does with the character. I think his acting abilities are exceptional and have been from SS/PS. But, I'm not a Draco fan per se.

Does this mean that there is a marked difference between Draco's public persona (i.e. what we see) and what's going on on the inside? No, not necessarily. It just means that we don't really know the private Draco - whereas we get a much clearer picture of the private Ron because Ron shares his thoughts and fears and vulnerability (and dormitory!) with Harry.

Is this a problem? Should we have more access to Draco? No, I don't think so. Rowling does this for a reason - in order, I think, to conceal Draco's humanity so that she can reveal it somewhat later in the game. What she reveals may be a stunted humanity. But I think it's certainly something more human than the (metaphorically) mustache-twirling villain boy we've seen in the earlier books. :)

In the Astronomy Tower scene, Harry finally sees more of what actually makes Draco tick. And as it happens, Draco does not wish to kill Dumbledore. He is not a lover of evil for evil's sake (as Harry's limited point of view has led the reader to believe up to this point). And he is a far more vulnerable human being than Harry would have imagined.

I agree with Moriath's comment that Draco wanted to be a villain (or as Tom Felton puts it, "The Harry Potter of the Dark Side" :) ), and a villain is how we've always perceived him up to this point in the narrative. But as it turns out, Draco is not really up to it. He is carrying out the assassination plot out of fear for himself and his family. The "love of family" part of that motive is not something that I think Harry ever would have predicted if he had not heard it with his own ears.

I personally don't think this new information about Draco (i.e., that he cares this deeply for his family) is a new character development for Draco. I think it's just new information about Draco that has been concealed from Harry and the audience before now. And as for Draco not really having it in him to be a killer, well, I think that's new information for Harry, the audience... and Draco! :elaugh:



Beyond Draco's love for his family, I'm not sure what other motives, or what hidden motives, I was ascribing to Draco. What Rowling is concealing, I think, is not so much hidden motives as the character's hidden humanity. Consequently, in the Astronomy Tower, Rowling has Harry (and by extension, the audience) witness a new dimension open up with regard to the character. After he proves himself no killer, Draco will lose his status as a key antagonist in the series and, I believe, become more of a desperate and pathetic figure. It seems pretty clear imo that after that point, Harry starts to pity him - something that Harry (and by extension, most of the audience) probably never would have anticipated prior to the Draco "reveal" in the Astronomy Tower. .

I think we only get the "outside" Draco, and that's ok. Just like we see other people, we don't get into their minds, and we only see who they really are by their actions.
IMO, at the beginning, Draco truly wants to be a villian. He loves to be the bad guy and really enjoys bullying the students around. But, as time goes by, he starts to realize that the "bad guy" is not the role he had in mind. Just like the Dark Side. I think when Draco "commited" to be on Voldemort's side, he didn't truly understand what he was getting in to... And by the time he, in my guess, decided the whole thing wasn't right for him, he just couldn't leave. You don't go to Voldemort and say "Oh, you know what, I don't want to be a DE anymore, but thanks for the tattoo".
So yes, Regulus decided it wasn't for him, and regreted being a DE, so he stood up and did something about it. He was brave, and a hero and whatever... but Draco didn't do that. And in reality, if any of us was in Draco's positition, we would do exactly as he did. Most of people are not heroes. And that's what I like about Draco - he his human, with purely human reactions and decision, especially unde pressure and fear.

Here, in a nutshell, is my stance on Draco so far:

Do I find Draco admirable? No.
Do I agree with Moriath and Birdi that he's an opportunist? Yes.
Do I think he's pretty intelligent? Yes.
Do I think he uses his intelligence wisely? No.
Do I think he's evil? No - I think he's a failed villain who does some evil things.
Do I like Draco? Not very much.
Do I hate Draco? Not any more.
Do I find him all-too-human? Yes, once we begin to learn more about him.
Am I a Draco fan? No - though I love Tom Felton in the role.


So, in my conclusion-

Do I find Draco admirable? No.
Do I agree with Moriath and Birdi that he's an opportunist? Yes.
Do I think he's pretty intelligent? Yes.
Do I think he uses his intelligence wisely? No.
Do I think he's evil? No. And I never thought he was.
Do I like Draco? Yes.
Do I hate Draco? No.
Do I find him all-too-human? Yes. And as ew come closer to the end, we learn that he is more human that we ever imagined.
Am I a Draco fan? Absolutely.

Ah, but at least he had the courage of his convictions. True he was a repulsive, large, blood thirsty individual, but he didn't sit on the fence. He was honest in his actions, Draco wasn't. You would know where you stood with Crabbe, under his foot if he had the chance. Draco might smile in your face, but I think he would be more likely to stab you in the back, half heartedly, but enough to make it sting.

I strongly disagree that sticking to conviction is better than sitting on the fence when this conviction hurts people. Courage and loyalty and all such qualities are not absolutely measured as positive and desirable, in my opinion - what they entail, what they lead to matters enormously. So to me, Crabbe was definitely worse than Draco for all his conviction and unwavering loyalty, as was Bellatrix. Draco may arguably be described as a coward, unreliable, hypocrite - but at least he did shake when faced with the actual effects of his ideology. To me, cruelty and inhumanity are worse than hypocrisy and frailty of character.

I strongly disagree that sticking to conviction is better than sitting on the fence when this conviction hurts people. Courage and loyalty and all such qualities are not absolutely measured as positive and desirable, in my opinion - what they entail, what they lead to matters enormously. So to me, Crabbe was definitely worse than Draco for all his conviction and unwavering loyalty, as was Bellatrix. Draco may arguably be described as a coward, unreliable, hypocrite - but at least he did shake when faced with the actual effects of his ideology. To me, cruelty and inhumanity are worse than hypocrisy and frailty of character.



When we meet Draco he is a kid. He was bad and a bully, and insulted, and enjoyed it. And was like that because he thought it was cool. "Look at me, I'm so bad".
And all the ideology, about the blood-purity, he learned at home. And he belived it, because that's what he heard. That was the ideology they had in his family. Kids repeat what they hear at home. And by repeating it, you belive it.
He didn't truly understand what he was beliving in, and by the time he did, and what all these involve, he just was scared and trapped.

Okay, here's my last time here with these definitions ("And there was great rejoicing!" - Monty Python :lol: ):

An omniscient narrator will show and tell the audience things beyond what the lead character can see, perceive, or know. In the Harry Potter series, this happens in only a handful of scenes - scenes in which Harry is not present (or is a baby) and has no access via his scar. Even if an omniscient narrator does not dip in and out of the minds of a variety of characters, the omniscient narrator will give the audience access to information (or scenery) beyond the knowledge or perceptions of the protagonist (i.e., lead character).

Having access to the story only through the thoughts, perceptions, and feelings of a single character is known as 3rd person limited. We only know as much as the lead character knows. We only see what the lead character sees. Our awareness grows as the lead character's grows. If the lead character makes a faulty assumption (as Harry does concerning who is trying to steal the Philosopher's Stone in PS/SS), the reader will typically get dragged along into the faulty assumption, assuming it to be the truth. This is the narrative technique used throughout the bulk of the Harry Potter series.

As I mentioned upthread, I have no reason to believe that Harry's limited point of view is making faulty assumptions regarding Draco. It is merely responding to impressions that are limited to Draco's public persona. Since Harry is not close to Draco (as he is to Ron and Hermione), this is the only part of Draco that Harry - and by extension, the audience - has access to.

Does this mean that there is a marked difference between Draco's public persona (i.e. what we see) and what's going on on the inside? No, not necessarily. It just means that we don't really know the private Draco - whereas we get a much clearer picture of the private Ron because Ron shares his thoughts and fears and vulnerability (and dormitory!) with Harry.

Is this a problem? Should we have more access to Draco? No, I don't think so. Rowling does this for a reason - in order, I think, to conceal Draco's humanity so that she can reveal it somewhat later in the game. What she reveals may be a stunted humanity. But I think it's certainly something more human than the (metaphorically) mustache-twirling villain boy we've seen in the earlier books. :)

In the Astronomy Tower scene, Harry finally sees more of what actually makes Draco tick. And as it happens, Draco does not wish to kill Dumbledore. He is not a lover of evil for evil's sake (as Harry's limited point of view has led the reader to believe up to this point). And he is a far more vulnerable human being than Harry would have imagined.

I agree with Moriath's comment that Draco wanted to be a villain (or as Tom Felton puts it, "The Harry Potter of the Dark Side" :) ), and a villain is how we've always perceived him up to this point in the narrative. But as it turns out, Draco is not really up to it. He is carrying out the assassination plot out of fear for himself and his family. The "love of family" part of that motive is not something that I think Harry ever would have predicted if he had not heard it with his own ears.

I personally don't think this new information about Draco (i.e., that he cares this deeply for his family) is a new character development for Draco. I think it's just new information about Draco that has been concealed from Harry and the audience before now. And as for Draco not really having it in him to be a killer, well, I think that's new information for Harry, the audience... and Draco! :elaugh:



Beyond Draco's love for his family, I'm not sure what other motives, or what hidden motives, I was ascribing to Draco. What Rowling is concealing, I think, is not so much hidden motives as the character's hidden humanity. Consequently, in the Astronomy Tower, Rowling has Harry (and by extension, the audience) witness a new dimension open up with regard to the character. After he proves himself no killer, Draco will lose his status as a key antagonist in the series and, I believe, become more of a desperate and pathetic figure. It seems pretty clear imo that after that point, Harry starts to pity him - something that Harry (and by extension, most of the audience) probably never would have anticipated prior to the Draco "reveal" in the Astronomy Tower.

Here, in a nutshell, is my stance on Draco so far:

Do I find Draco admirable? No.
Do I agree with Moriath and Birdi that he's an opportunist? Yes.
Do I think he's pretty intelligent? Yes.
Do I think he uses his intelligence wisely? No.
Do I think he's evil? No - I think he's a failed villain who does some evil things.
Do I like Draco? Not very much.
Do I hate Draco? Not any more.
Do I find him all-too-human? Yes, once we begin to learn more about him.
Am I a Draco fan? No - though I love Tom Felton in the role.

I think CC, after a lot of thrashing around that we have more or less arrived at the same point. There are two caveats I will say.
1) Do I find him all too human?
Yes I suppose he all too typical of some types of humans. I think good and brave behaviour is more prevalent than the portrayal of Draco in the books would indicate. As I said earlier, I will not cut him any slack because his behaviour is indicative of some human behaviour. Some humans behave like that, a great many would not and I refuse to condemn the entire human behaviour pool because Draco behaves too many times in a repugnant manner. In the books more people find the courage to fight Voldemort than those who support him. Draco was not one of the fighters.
2) Do I hate Draco?
No I don't. I suppose I do loathe his behaviour, but in the main I simply find him pathetic. It's hard to hate someone like Draco. I don't think he is worth the emotion.

Org posted by Yoana:
I strongly disagree that sticking to conviction is better than sitting on the fence when this conviction hurts people. Courage and loyalty and all such qualities are not absolutely measured as positive and desirable, in my opinion - what they entail, what they lead to matters enormously. So to me, Crabbe was definitely worse than Draco for all his conviction and unwavering loyalty, as was Bellatrix. Draco may arguably be described as a coward, unreliable, hypocrite - but at least he did shake when faced with the actual effects of his ideology. To me, cruelty and inhumanity are worse than hypocrisy and frailty of character.

My point is Yoana, when faced with someone like Crabbe you know where you will stand and if you don't fight him, you know he will kill you. He is an honest enemy, that should be destroyed if you can do it. His villainy will always be carried up front and facing you. Yes. his beliefs are repugnant and his actions are despicable, but they are not hidden under a layer of false professions of regret. Draco is like quicksand that will turn treacherous if it is to his benefit. You would never know if you could trust him to stand firm or betray you. It wouldn't matter which side you were on, Draco cannot be trusted and I think that makes him much more dangerous. As we see when he almost kills Katie and Ron, Draco does not care who dies as long as he and his are safe. This is why I would prefer to face a Crabbe rather than a Draco. I know what Crabbe would do. No one, not even Draco himself, knows what Draco would do.

It's clear to you, not me. When I read that scene for the first time it was obvious to me that he was not really on Voldemort's side and that's how I still feel. I think he had changed his mind long before Voldemort died.
Can you explain why it's not clear to you? I can explain in everything he did in the Battle he was against Harry. That means he's on the other side, Voldemort's side. There's the RoR scene, but then he doesn't change. He's still against Harry. He doesn't forgive Harry or thank him. He gets out of the burning room and is still against Harry. I don't have the book on hand to give finer examples than that.

Can you explain why it's not clear to you? I can explain in everything he did in the Battle he was against Harry. That means he's on the other side, Voldemort's side. There's the RoR scene, but then he doesn't change. He's still against Harry. He doesn't forgive Harry or thank him. He gets out of the burning room and is still against Harry. I don't have the book on hand to give finer examples than that.

This is the scene from Deathly Hallows, Chapter 32 the Elder Wand. It occurs not long after Fred is killed.

“LET’S GO!” Harry yelled, and he, Ron, and Hermione gathered the Cloak
tightly around themselves and pelted, heads down, through the midst of the
fighters, slipping a little in pools of Snargaluff juice, toward the top of the marble staircase into the entrance hall.
“I’m Draco Malfoy, I’m Draco, I’m on your side!”
Draco was on the upper landing, pleading with another masked Death Eater.
Harry Stunned the Death Eater as they passed. Malfoy looked around, beaming, for his savior, and Ron punched him from under the Cloak. Malfoy fell backward on top of the Death Eater, his mouth bleeding, utterly bemused.
“And that’s the second time we’ve saved your life tonight, you two—faced
*******!” Ron yelled. JK Rowling The Deathly Hallows

I think Ron is spot on, Draco's words and actions speak for himself.

Can you explain why it's not clear to you? I can explain in everything he did in the Battle he was against Harry. That means he's on the other side, Voldemort's side. There's the RoR scene, but then he doesn't change. He's still against Harry. He doesn't forgive Harry or thank him. He gets out of the burning room and is still against Harry. I don't have the book on hand to give finer examples than that.

No. I won't explain!





just kidding.:lol:

Well I can try.

I have to go back to Half-Blood Prince. In that book we see that Lord Voldemort has recruited Draco for a mission. On the surface, it looks like he's just a plain ole evil kid trying to kill Dumbledore. But when we, through Harry, get more information, we realize that he is not trying to kill Dumbledore because he wants to (although he may have right in the beginning), but because Voldemort will kill him and his parents if he does not.

“No one can help me,” said Malfoy. His whole body was shaking. “I can’t do it. . . . I can’t. . . . It won’t work . . . and unless I do it soon . . .he says he’ll kill me . . . .”Half-Blood Prince, American version page 522

He says the same thing again on page 591
[Dumbledore says] . . . I can help you, Draco.”
“No, you can’t,” said Malfoy, his wand hand shaking very badly indeed. “Nobody can. He told me to do it or he’ll kill me. I’ve got no choice.”

Then on page 592,

[Draco says to Dumbledore] “You’re at my mercy. . . .”
“No, Draco,” said Dumbledore quietly. “It is my mercy, and not yours, that matters now.”
Malfoy did not speak. His mouth was open, his wand hand still trembling. Harry thought he saw it drop by a fraction –
But suddenly footsteps were thundering up the stairs, and a second later Malfoy was buffeted out of the way as four people in black robes burst through the door onto the ramparts.

We see here that Draco is lowering his wand. That, to me, is a sign that he is about to accept Dumbledore’s offer. But before he can Death Eaters burst in and he and Dumbledore can’t exactly continue their conversation in present company.

When I read the scenes in the prefects’ bathroom with Draco crying and on the lightning struck tower, I realized that Draco was not trying to complete his mission because he wanted to, but because he had to. That informed the way I read his actions in Deathly Hallows.

The first scene we see in Deathly Hallows is of Voldemort and the Death Eaters in the Malfoys’ home. In that scene, everyone is uncomfortable except Bellatrix. Voldemort himself says that the Malfoys do not seem pleased to have him in their home.

“I have given you your liberty, Lucius, is that not enough for you? But I have noticed that you and your family seem less than happy of late. . . . What is it about my presence in your home that displeases you, Lucius?”
Deathly Hallows, page 8

Later Voldemort says
”Why do the Malfoys look so unhappy with their lot? Is my return, my rise to power, not the very thing they professed to desire for so many years?”
“Of course, my Lord,” said Lucius Malfoy. His hand shook as he wiped the sweat from his upper lip. “we did desire it – we do.”
Deathly Hallows, page 9

It is telling that he at first says they did desire it, past tense. That, to me, signifies that the Malfoys no longer feel loyalty to Voldemort. But they are still under his power and must pretend to be on his side.


I do not believe that in the Room of Requirement, Draco actually wanted to bring Harry to Draco. Somebody actually brought this up earlier, but I’ll reiterate. In the Room of Requirement, Draco acts like he wants to take Harry to Voldemort, but he also says that they should find the diadem as well. I don’t think Draco was so dim-witted that he believed Voldemort would not be capable of finding the diadem himself. The only thing that would be accomplished by trying to find the diadem is giving Harry more time to escape. Crabbe tries to crucio Harry but Malfoy tells him to stop. That does not make sense if he’s trying to capture Harry because Crucio, though it will not kill one, will weaken. If Harry was weakened, he would have been easier to capture. But Draco does not want this. Also, Ron and Hermione were not even near Harry for quite some time. Crabbe, Goyle, and Draco could have taken Harry easily. But Draco does not use any spells against Harry. If he were really working for Voldemort, he would have at least done something to bring him down: a stunning spell, a disarming spell, Crucio, leg-locking curse, incarcerus, petrificus totalis, etc. There are any number of spells that could have incapacitated Harry. Draco does nothing to Harry but talk. And talking won't do anything.

It makes more sense for Draco to help Harry then to hurt him. Considering Draco’s closeness to Voldemort, he’s probably put it together that Harry is the only one with a chance of defeating Voldemort. Voldemort has ruined his and his parents’ lives. He’s threatened them all with death and tortured them. They are constantly in fear. That’s how Voldemort operates. Harry is the person who can put an end to that. He is the one person who can allow peace to return to the Malfoys’ lives. Why would Draco be against the one person who has a chance of defeating Voldemort, the man who ruined his and his parents’ lives?

For all these reasons, I believe that Draco is not actually working for Voldemort.

ETA:

Here are my Draco in a nutshell answers

Do I find Draco admirable? Not usually.
Do I agree with Moriath and Birdi that he's an opportunist? Yes.
Do I think he's pretty intelligent? Yes.
Do I think he uses his intelligence wisely? Mostly no, but sometimes he does.
Do I like Draco? Yes. He's like one of those kids from South Park.
Do I hate Draco? No.
Do I find him all-too-human? Yes.
Am I a Draco fan? Yes. I always did like him.

but they are not hidden under a layer of false professions of regret.

When did Draco ever say he regretted anything?

No one, not even Draco himself, knows what Draco would do.

Disagree. It's clear in the books he's incapable of torture or murder so you can rule those two out. Actually, from the books, he'd probably create some overly elaborate plan that would just crumble or blow up in his face. It's Draco, he's a failbot. Failing is what he does.

I think Ron is spot on, Draco's words and actions speak for himself.

Ron's comment makes no sense as it is based on the logic that Draco, at any point in time, was on their side and I see no evidence that he was or Ron would believe so.

Furthermore, what Draco does there is exactly what the Trio did when captured by Snatchers - they lied and tried to convince the Snatchers they were sympathetic to Voldemort (Slytherins) and Draco reminds the Death Eater that he's on the same side.

What exactly is the difference in the two situations?

I think Ron was reacting more out of the fact that he had to save Draco again and while he'd been able to save Draco - someone he despised - twice, he couldn't do the same for his brother. He and the others get out of the RoR just in time to see Fred die. It's possible Ron felt that if he hadn't been busy saving Draco and Goyle, he could have been out there with Fred and Percy and have prevented Fred's death.

And since everyone else is doing it:

Do I find Draco admirable? The only admirable thing he ever did was try to save Goyle so... no.
Do I agree with Moriath and Birdi that he's an opportunist? No, I don't agree with that Birdi person at all. She's crazy.
Do I think he's pretty intelligent? Yes.
Do I think he uses his intelligence wisely? Hahahahahahaha no. Draco wouldn't know what wisdom was if it bit him on the butt.
Do I like Draco? I like making fun of him, does that count? Oh, I suppose I do. I write about him often enough.
Do I hate Draco? Nah.
Do I find him all-too-human? Very much so.
Am I a Draco fan? I guess. The only reason I hesitate to say yes is that I have no illusions about his moral cowardice, bigotry, and plain nasty behavior and I think he should be criticized for all those things. Also, I frequently wanted to slap him in the books. I'm an odd fan.

When did Draco ever say he regretted anything?



Disagree. It's clear in the books he's incapable of torture or murder so you can rule those two out. Actually, from the books, he'd probably create some overly elaborate plan that would just crumble or blow up in his face. It's Draco, he's a failbot. Failing is what he does.

That's the thing about Draco that makes it difficult to be a fan. Draco tries to kill Dumbledore in lame ways. He founds it hard to kill and torture. But - he doesn't give a damn about all the dead people. He doesn't care Dumbledore is dead, he only cares he wasn't the one who killed him. At the right beginning we see so much lack of empathy, going back even to Diagon Alley, when he and Harry first meet.
So it makes me think, why is he so cold? Why anything touches him?
And then we see how he fears about his life. No big surprise. But he also fears about his family. I thought he would act differently after he and his family were in danger, and even after he saw HOW wrong he was when he supported Voldemort and belived his ideas. But no, he was still selfish. In a way that from one hand, I can understand.. he wants to live and is afraid... from the other hand... come on! open your eyes and look around.. how uncapable of feeling are you?!



Ron's comment makes no sense as it is based on the logic that Draco, at any point in time, was on their side and I see no evidence that he was or Ron would believe so.

Furthermore, what Draco does there is exactly what the Trio did when captured by Snatchers - they lied and tried to convince the Snatchers they were sympathetic to Voldemort (Slytherins) and Draco reminds the Death Eater that he's on the same side.

What exactly is the difference in the two situations?

I think Ron was reacting more out of the fact that he had to save Draco again and while he'd been able to save Draco - someone he despised - twice, he couldn't do the same for his brother. He and the others get out of the RoR just in time to see Fred die. It's possible Ron felt that if he hadn't been busy saving Draco and Goyle, he could have been out there with Fred and Percy and have prevented Fred's death.

I agree. IMO Ron thinks that if we wasn't wasting his time on saving Draco's life, he could save Fred's.

When did Draco ever say he regretted anything?



Disagree. It's clear in the books he's incapable of torture or murder so you can rule those two out. Actually, from the books, he'd probably create some overly elaborate plan that would just crumble or blow up in his face. It's Draco, he's a failbot. Failing is what he does.



Ron's comment makes no sense as it is based on the logic that Draco, at any point in time, was on their side and I see no evidence that he was or Ron would believe so.

Furthermore, what Draco does there is exactly what the Trio did when captured by Snatchers - they lied and tried to convince the Snatchers they were sympathetic to Voldemort (Slytherins) and Draco reminds the Death Eater that he's on the same side.

What exactly is the difference in the two situations?

I think Ron was reacting more out of the fact that he had to save Draco again and while he'd been able to save Draco - someone he despised - twice, he couldn't do the same for his brother. He and the others get out of the RoR just in time to see Fred die. It's possible Ron felt that if he hadn't been busy saving Draco and Goyle, he could have been out there with Fred and Percy and have prevented Fred's death.

And since everyone else is doing it:

Do I find Draco admirable? The only admirable thing he ever did was try to save Goyle so... no.
Do I agree with Moriath and Birdi that he's an opportunist? No, I don't agree with that Birdi person at all. She's crazy.
Do I think he's pretty intelligent? Yes.
Do I think he uses his intelligence wisely? Hahahahahahaha no. Draco wouldn't know what wisdom was if it bit him on the butt.
Do I like Draco? I like making fun of him, does that count? Oh, I suppose I do. I write about him often enough.
Do I hate Draco? Nah.
Do I find him all-too-human? Very much so.
Am I a Draco fan? I guess. The only reason I hesitate to say yes is that I have no illusions about his moral cowardice, bigotry, and plain nasty behavior and I think he should be criticized for all those things. Also, I frequently wanted to slap him in the books. I'm an odd fan.

Draco makes it hard to have any positive feelings about him. I simply cannot find anything positive to say about him. He is a dangerous loose cannon. He proves it when he makes those attempts to kill Dumbledore from a distance. Katie nearly dies, Ron nearly dies, and Draco goes on planning and plotting So to say that Draco would not have killed Dumbledore is not quite true. IMO, Draco could have, would have easily killed Dumbledore if he could have done it from a distance. Up close and personal, it's too real and I think he can't bring himself to deliver the killing blow.
Does he love his family? His parents love him, that's clear. But does Draco return his parents love, or does he want the power and prestige of his rich PureBlood background? Even that is not that clear. The only thing I think is clear is that Draco's loyalty is to Draco, then to his parents and after that. To whatever side is winning in his eyes.

Actually, from the books, he'd probably create some overly elaborate plan that would just crumble or blow up in his face. It's Draco, he's a failbot. Failing is what he does.

:hmm: What cannon do you base this opinion on?

Thinking of HBP there are several plans that Draco comes up with however as far as I can see using the vanishing cabinet was always ‘Plan A’ as we see him making preparations for it before he goes to school. I believe Dumbledore also explains why he believes Draco used the necklace & mead – because his heart wasn’t really in it. However the use of the vanishing cabinet was a good plan, by which I mean that Draco managed to circumvent the numerous wards that protect Hogwarts, a feat Dumbledore thought impossible, and that Lord Voldermort & all his other Death Eaters had been unable to accomplish and they all had much more time & training than Draco did. Given what we are told about the brilliance of both Dumbledore & Tom Riddle I think it is fair to say that Draco’s accomplishment was in deed a tremendous one and not a ‘fail’

Ron's comment makes no sense as it is based on the logic that Draco, at any point in time, was on their side and I see no evidence that he was or Ron would believe so.

To be honest I see Draco as being very lost during HBP & DH. He has lost his confidence, his sense of security, his sense of right & wrong are suddenly turned on its head – he’s all out to sea without a rudder.

It looks to me like he falls back on bravado, at least to begin with, and eventually realises that Harry Potter might just be able to provide the only way out possible. I think for him this is a very difficult situation, not just because of the risk to his & his families lives but because the ‘rivalry’ between him and Harry is so deep and entrenched and it probably feels wrong to him to help Harry out – yet he does so in several ways, buying time for him and trying not hamper the people who want t hand him over to Voldermort. Yes his is not exactly wholehearted about it but I personally feel that this is very understandable because he isn’t whole hearted about anything except the survival of himself & his family – that is the only thing that has remained constant for him throughout the series – everything else is a complete about turn and if he feels unsure about it I can certainly understand why when his whole life is in turmoil.

Do I find Draco admirable? Not overall I guess but I think he had his moments

Do I agree with Moriath and Birdi that he's an opportunist? :hmm: To some extent I suppose but not entirely – its not the word I would use to sum up Draco. I think many people would take advantage of opportunities as they come along - I don't really see Draco as acting any differently. :)

Do I think he's pretty intelligent? Yes, he managed something the 2 characters we are told are the most intelligent in the series didn’t so he must be ‘pretty intelligent’ at the least imo.

Do I think he uses his intelligence wisely? Sadly not really/ often.

Do I like Draco? / Do I hate Draco? Its not about like or hate to me :)

Do I find him all-too-human? Definitely.

Am I a Draco fan? Again not what its about to me :)

Thinking of HBP there are several plans that Draco comes up with however as far as I can see using the vanishing cabinet was always ‘Plan A’ as we see him making preparations for it before he goes to school. I believe Dumbledore also explains why he believes Draco used the necklace & mead – because his heart wasn’t really in it. However the use of the vanishing cabinet was a good plan, by which I mean that Draco managed to circumvent the numerous wards that protect Hogwarts, a feat Dumbledore thought impossible, and that Lord Voldermort & all his other Death Eaters had been unable to accomplish and they all had much more time & training than Draco did. Given what we are told about the brilliance of both Dumbledore & Tom Riddle I think it is fair to say that Draco’s accomplishment was in deed a tremendous one and not a ‘fail’

:tu: Draco made it clear that he had a smart head. Though I must say that his dedication towards the goal was only so much because of the threat posed by Voldemort, clearly showing that he wasn't really eager to perform the task at hand and hence him failing with the feeble attempts at Harry before the final execution of his plan of Vanishing Cabinet.

He has lost his confidence, his sense of security, his sense of right & wrong are suddenly turned on its head – he’s all out to sea without a rudder.
I think his main purpose throughout DH was to survive and keep his family safe at all cost. He would have done whatever he was asked so long as his family wasn't threatened.

Thinking of HBP there are several plans that Draco comes up with however as far as I can see using the vanishing cabinet was always ‘Plan A’ as we see him making preparations for it before he goes to school. I believe Dumbledore also explains why he believes Draco used the necklace & mead – because his heart wasn’t really in it. However the use of the vanishing cabinet was a good plan, by which I mean that Draco managed to circumvent the numerous wards that protect Hogwarts, a feat Dumbledore thought impossible, and that Lord Voldermort & all his other Death Eaters had been unable to accomplish and they all had much more time & training than Draco did. Given what we are told about the brilliance of both Dumbledore & Tom Riddle I think it is fair to say that Draco’s accomplishment was in deed a tremendous one and not a ‘fail’

The Vanishing Cabinet and his plan for getting the Death Eaters into the school was a good one for a boy his age. It was his only really good plan. The necklace and mead plans are flawed for reasons I go into below and his final idea seemed to be "surprise Dumbledore and hope for the best!"

Futhermore, Draco was aided by Dumbledore and Snape knowing his and no one taking Harry seriously. If neither of those things had happened, the OOTP or McGonagall or the Trio would have unraveled the whole thing before Christmas hols. But due to a lot of plot contrivances - some better than others - Draco "succeeded" till the end.


He is a dangerous loose cannon. He proves it when he makes those attempts to kill Dumbledore from a distance.

Aside from what the person who created them said, even Dumbledore notes that Draco's attempts were pathetic to the point of self-sabotage. Like Dumbledore was really going to accept a necklace from an unknown sender. That was just too daft for words. And having the poisoned mead given to a renowned Potions Masters? Another ace plan from Draco. That's like him sending a transfigured bomb through McGonagall the Transfiguration professor and expecting her not to figure it out.

So we have it in the text and from the author that Draco wasn't really trying. Which means he wasn't really trying.

And while Draco does deserve blame for what Katie and Ron suffered as result of his attempts, to say he wasn't affected by what happened to them is incorrect. After the necklace he uses a professor as his proxy. A Potions professor. Someone smarter and far more apt to catch on. I don't think he did this consciously, of course, but there was

And after that goes wrong, he stops using proxies all together. It was just February. The last proxy he had used was December. He still had Rosemerta under Imperius. There was no reason for him to stop unless he started freaking out about what happened to Ron and Katie as well as Dumbledore not dying and just backed off and moved on to what was at least Plan C by then.

Even that is not that clear. The only thing I think is clear is that Draco's loyalty is to Draco, then to his parents and after that.

Of course he loves his parents. He was terrified for their safety in all of HBP and tells Dumbledore that. He's not a sociopath or dead inside.

The only thing I think is clear is that Draco's loyalty is to Draco, then to his parents and after that.

Except for the part where he never ran or left the DE to save his own neck because he knew it would be a death sentence for his parents. And the part where didn't run and leave Goyle behind and even waited to make sure he got on the broom first.

Minor details.

Seriously, being a bigoted jerk doesn't mean someone is a monster. Bigots are capable of love too which is a good thing since the vast majority of people are bigoted in some way.

To whatever side is winning in his eyes.

If that were true, he wouldn't have been such a failtastic Death Eater.

This is the scene from Deathly Hallows, Chapter 32 the Elder Wand. It occurs not long after Fred is killed.


I think Ron is spot on, Draco's words and actions speak for himself.

Thanks, that is one scene. Draco's not on Harry's side, that's for sure. He just wants to make sure he gets his butt out alive.

I agree that Draco "completed" his mission not because he wanted to but because he had to. He didn't expect Voldemort to make him kill someone and I'm sure when he got the mission he thought it might be easier to kill someone he doesn't respect (or rather has learned from his father not to respect). But, he finds that's not the case.

Of course the Malfoys are not pleased to have Voldemort in their home. He's taken over. They have to watch everything they say and do. Lucius is at the bottom of the Death Eater chain. It's not a good time.

Deathly Hallows, page 9

It is telling that he at first says they did desire it, past tense. That, to me, signifies that the Malfoys no longer feel loyalty to Voldemort. But they are still under his power and must pretend to be on his side. I don't think this proves they turned their loyalty. It just shows how unhappy they are with the way things have come. They're at the bottom when they used to be at the top. They're Malfoys. Being at the bottom is something they despise. If they could rise to the top again they would be happy with Voldemort. They would be kings of their castle. They'd be sitting pretty and walking tall. They're down at the bottom so they walk around all depressed and stuff.

Draco and his family has to know if Harry wins they will not be at the top. They can't like that, either.


It's clear in the books he's incapable of torture


Ah, but in HBP when the train arrives in Hogsmeade and there are only two left, Draco breaks Harry's nose by stepping on it. I think that's torture and shows he's capable of it.

Ah, but in HBP when the train arrives in Hogsmeade and there are only two left, Draco breaks Harry's nose by stepping on it. I think that's torture and shows he's capable of it.

I'll agree that this is torture if you agree that Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle being hexed at the end of GoF and OOTP by several people and left on the trains was torture.

I say none of those instances count as torture. In fact, it was JKR very cleverly putting Harry in the same spot he put Draco. He was barging in on Draco just like Draco had done to him before. And Draco attacked him just like Harry had done TWICE before. While all three incidents were violent, they were not torture and to call them such lessens the real scenes of torture we see in the book.

Draco and his family has to know if Harry wins they will not be at the top. They can't like that, either.

Who's to say they won't be at the "top" if Harry wins? They're still rich after all. They still have connections. Just because Voldemort's defeated does not mean the world doesn't work the same way it did before. Even if they would be at the bottom, Narcissa lied to Voldemort anyway. And Draco tried to stop Crabbe from harming Harry anyway. Apparently, they do not care about being at the top as much as people believe.

I'll agree that this is torture if you agree that Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle being hexed at the end of GoF and OOTP by several people and left on the trains was torture.


I won't say that torture is what the instances you and I pointed out are, but it does show Draco is not above inflicting pain on someone.

Who's to say they won't be at the "top" if Harry wins? They're still rich after all. They still have connections. Just because Voldemort's defeated does not mean the world doesn't work the same way it did before. Even if they would be at the bottom, Narcissa lied to Voldemort anyway. And Draco tried to stop Crabbe from harming Harry anyway. Apparently, they do not care about being at the top as much as people believe.

Maybe so, but I see that it would take some work and would not happen right away. The Malfoys are Death Eaters. They won't just walk away from it. According to Rowling they do not go to Azkaban, but that doesn't mean they're scot-free. That's what I mean.

I agree with Leah that the Malfoys wouldn't walk out of the war with their reputations intact. Being a family of Death Eaters (whether Cissa was one or not) is not going to look good no matter how they contributed to Harry's victory.

This is just me, but my pet theory is that Draco's thinning hair in the epilogue is a testament to the added burdens of being a former DE in a post-Voldemort world and having to work doubly hard for the honors his name once gave him.

but it does show Draco is not above inflicting pain on someone.

But that wasn't the question and futhermore, neither Ron, Harry, Hermione, or Ginny are above inflicting pain on someone. Even someone who has not hit them first (as they have all proven). That doesn't mean they'll torture someone. So I'm not sure where you trying to go with this.

Draco and his family has to know if Harry wins they will not be at the top. They can't like that, either.

They weren't at the top with Voldemort in charge. In DH they were only above Pettigrew and once he was dead, it was Lucius and Narcissa that Voldemort ordered around the same way he had Pettigrew.

They had very little left to lose and I think Narcissa realized that.

I'm sorry... but I don't see how breaking someone's nose is "torture". Draco dislikes Harry, Harry was trying to spy on Draco and to listen what he was talking about with his mates. So in my opinion, Harry was wrong when he did that (no matter for what cause), and Draco has the right to be upset. So he broke Harry's nose. He didn't even use a spell. He was angry at him, and reacted. But in my opinion this is no torture.
At the same way we could say that when Hermione slapped Draco in PoA it was torture.


IMO Draco changed a lot during the series. His character really evolved, and at the end he started to show things he wasn't able before.
There was an only thing that he didn't change, and it was caring about himself and his parents. Was his selfish when he cared about his own butt? I don't think so... We all care about our butts, and we don't want to die (most of us), and if we had the opportunity to save ourselves, we would take it. Just like Draco did.


After Harry saved his life, they see him bagging to the DE, saying to them that his is one of them and not to kill him. Well... this is the same thing the trio did with the Snatchers. They lied they were of them, Harry lied about his name, and by saying he was in Slytherin. And what was the cause? They didn't want to die, so they said everything they could think about to save themlselves.

IMO, most of the people just judge Draco for being bad, and selfish, and egoist. But when we compare the things he did, he's not that bad.
I agree he didn't always make the right choices, and he didn't always act the way he was supposed to. But.. after all he is human, and we all make mistakes.


Thinking of HBP there are several plans that Draco comes up with however as far as I can see using the vanishing cabinet was always ‘Plan A’ as we see him making preparations for it before he goes to school. I believe Dumbledore also explains why he believes Draco used the necklace & mead – because his heart wasn’t really in it. However the use of the vanishing cabinet was a good plan, by which I mean that Draco managed to circumvent the numerous wards that protect Hogwarts, a feat Dumbledore thought impossible, and that Lord Voldermort & all his other Death Eaters had been unable to accomplish and they all had much more time & training than Draco did. Given what we are told about the brilliance of both Dumbledore & Tom Riddle I think it is fair to say that Draco’s accomplishment was in deed a tremendous one and not a ‘fail’



To be honest I see Draco as being very lost during HBP & DH. He has lost his confidence, his sense of security, his sense of right & wrong are suddenly turned on its head – he’s all out to sea without a rudder.

It looks to me like he falls back on bravado, at least to begin with, and eventually realises that Harry Potter might just be able to provide the only way out possible. I think for him this is a very difficult situation, not just because of the risk to his & his families lives but because the ‘rivalry’ between him and Harry is so deep and entrenched and it probably feels wrong to him to help Harry out – yet he does so in several ways, buying time for him and trying not hamper the people who want t hand him over to Voldermort. Yes his is not exactly wholehearted about it but I personally feel that this is very understandable because he isn’t whole hearted about anything except the survival of himself & his family – that is the only thing that has remained constant for him throughout the series – everything else is a complete about turn and if he feels unsure about it I can certainly understand why when his whole life is in turmoil.


I agree. Draco is just lost and doesn't really know which decisions to make. He doesn't have the time to think about them, so he acts stupidilly.

Draco is just lost and doesn't really know which decisions to make. He doesn't have the time to think about them, so he acts stupidilly.

I think he attempts to find his way and by the time we get to DH I think his fumbiling attempts to do right are there - to me he's still lost but trying to get back to some stability - and I do respect his attempts to me it shows that there is some hope for him. :)

=addie_ep;5541020I'm sorry... but I don't see how breaking someone's nose is "torture". Draco dislikes Harry, Harry was trying to spy on Draco and to listen what he was talking about with his mates. So in my opinion, Harry was wrong when he did that (no matter for what cause), and Draco has the right to be upset. So he broke Harry's nose. He didn't even use a spell. He was angry at him, and reacted. But in my opinion this is no torture.
At the same way we could say that when Hermione slapped Draco in PoA it was torture.

I'm sorry but I think having your nose broken and left lying on your back with the blood running down your throat and choking you would be a very unpleasant experience. Perhaps not torture, but certainly harder than having your face slapped.
At the end of OOTP, if Crabbe, Goyle and Draco had not been so intent on jumping Harry and beating him up, they would not have been hexed as they were. The only reason they were hexed so badly was that they did not judge their ambush very carefully. There was no teachers to stop them, but Harry did have friends. Sorry, but my sympathy is limited in this situation.
Yes, Draco was having a hard time in HBP, his parents and he were reaping the benefits of supporting a pathological madman. Forgive me if again my sympathy is limited. His parents, IMO are in a bad situation because Lucius was caught red handed trying to murder a group of schoolchildren. Said pathological madman did not like failure, hence Draco's position of being between a rock and a hard place. I would feel sorrier for him if he had not tried his best to kill Dumbledore and in those attempts come close to killing Katie Bell and Ron. Now, as far as Dumbledore was considered these were pathetic and lame attempts. Stupid really. Tell that to Katie and Ron. They were not lame and pathetic to them. They were real and dangerous attempts on their lives. It is cold comfort indeed, that the attempt to kill you was not really aimed at you, but at your headmaster. This is what I mean when I say that Draco was a dangerous loose cannon. The attempts were not thought through. This does not mean they were not dangerous and potentially lethal.

IMO Draco changed a lot during the series. His character really evolved, and at the end he started to show things he wasn't able before.
There was an only thing that he didn't change, and it was caring about himself and his parents. Was his selfish when he cared about his own butt? I don't think so... We all care about our butts, and we don't want to die (most of us), and if we had the opportunity to save ourselves, we would take it. Just like Draco did.

All very true. There is just the thought on my part that perhaps if Draco's parents and others like them had not supported Voldemort in the first place he would not have been in this postion to begin with. Draco was in this postion because his father was a Death Eater. This wasn't Harry's fault, it certainly was not Dumbledore's fault. And he did continue down the path laid by his father and I cannot blame Harry for trying to tear up that path. Draco and his family were paying the price of supporting an agenda that included the torture and murder of innocent people. It was just fine when they were not the ones in danger. Unfortunately when you choose a side in war and that side's leader is a pathalogical murderer, there can be a price to be paid. Draco did not want his parents to be killed, that's human. Harry did not want his parents to be killed either. The difference between them is that Harry was quite willing to die to stop the killing and Draco was not. Perhap's that makes Harry a saint and Draco a sinner. I think it makes Harry someone who looked at the bigger picture and saw that there was more important things than his life and his parents lives.

After Harry saved his life, they see him bagging to the DE, saying to them that his is one of them and not to kill him. Well... this is the same thing the trio did with the Snatchers. They lied they were of them, Harry lied about his name, and by saying he was in Slytherin. And what was the cause? They didn't want to die, so they said everything they could think about to save themlselves.

The difference is that the Trio were trying to defeat the biggest evil around. They were not where they were, as part of a plan to support that biggest evil and their motives are not self serving. Draco always seems to be trying to save himself from the consequences of his own actions. If he had not come back with Crabbe and Goyle to stop Harry, he wouldn't have been there begging for his life from one of his side. It was one of his side, Draco was a Death Eater.

IMO, most of the people just judge Draco for being bad, and selfish, and egoist. But when we compare the things he did, he's not that bad.
I agree he didn't always make the right choices, and he didn't always act the way he was supposed to. But.. after all he is human, and we all make mistakes.

I judge Draco as a bad, selfish, egoistical, bigoted and immature young man who thought that he was above everyone else and learnt a hard lesson. Yes, he cared about his parents. IMO, he did not care about anyone else parents or their children. He was in a bad position because of his choices and his parents choices, but in the end he was the one who made those choices and supported his parents choices. His choices had consequences.


I agree. Draco is just lost and doesn't really know which decisions to make. He doesn't have the time to think about them, so he acts stupidilly.

Draco had months to think about decisions and choices. He made the wrong ones.

Yes, Draco was having a hard time in HBP, his parents and he were reaping the benefits of supporting a pathological madman.

Before HBP when do we actually see Draco supporting Voldermort? I know we see a child hero worshiping someone he has no knowledge of but I mean actual tangible support.

The problem is before HBP Draco is under 15 – very much still a child. A child who is brought up to believe certain things, who is a product of his environment and has seen nothing in his sheltered life to contradict what he has been brought up to believe.

His parents, IMO are in a bad situation because Lucius was caught red handed trying to murder a group of schoolchildren. Said pathological madman did not like failure, hence Draco's position of being between a rock and a hard place.

I was always under the impression that Voldermort was more angry about Lucius’s treatment of the Horcrux diary & his los of the prophecy – for either one of those I think Voldermort was going to make Lucius’s life, & that of his family, a misery.

Draco was in this postion because his father was a Death Eater. This wasn't Harry's fault, it certainly was not Dumbledore's fault.

Neither was it Draco’s fault – it is almost certain that Lucius was a DE before Draco was born (or even conceived) so I really don’t see how any blame could be attached to Draco. :hmm:

And he did continue down the path laid by his father

Here’s the point where I have sympathy for Draco – he was still a child at that point, his father was in jail, hi home was invaded and his family were under threat. What choice did he really feel he had at that point? He couldn’t even go to his ‘favourite professor’ because it was widely believed that he was also a loyal DE. What exactly was his way out at this point?

He was stuck between a rock and a hard place at the age of 16 – many characters in the book have put others lives at risk as teenagers and not been without some understanding – is Draco’s position so different? The only difference I can see is that he is under more duress than any other 16 year old I can think of in the series.

and I cannot blame Harry for trying to tear up that path.

I don’t believe any one else is either :)

Draco did not want his parents to be killed, that's human. Harry did not want his parents to be killed either. The difference between them is that Harry was quite willing to die to stop the killing and Draco was not. Perhap's that makes Harry a saint and Draco a sinner. I think it makes Harry someone who looked at the bigger picture and saw that there was more important things than his life and his parents lives.

I don’t recall any time where Draco was in the position where giving up his life would make any difference at all – let alone a positive one – so I don’t really see where this comparison works. :hmm:

If he had not come back with Crabbe and Goyle to stop Harry, he wouldn't have been there begging for his life from one of his side. It was one of his side, Draco was a Death Eater.

At this point I don’t see Draco as someone with any loyalties – he has already tried to hamper the DE in their attempts to identify the trio – he seems more to be someone who is trying to survive; which seems like a fairly reasonable portrait of someone dealing with a situation that is deadly not just to themselves but their family. Of course I understand that you don’t agree with this take on matters, that is your right but to me the issue is not as clear cut as it seems to be for you. :)

The difference is that the Trio were trying to defeat the biggest evil around.

LOL I'm pretty sure if they'd been off camping for fun and not on a mission, they still would have lied because that's what you do in that sort of situation to get out of it. Life isn't black and white, lying is ok when it's done to save your life.

Seriously, there's tons of nasty things Draco's done, claiming that he never really loved his parents and judging him for lying when wandless against a Death Eater seems unnecessary and desperate to find fault.

The problem is before HBP Draco is under 15 – very much still a child. A child who is brought up to believe certain things, who is a product of his environment

Sirius was a child too, brought up with the same beliefs.

and has seen nothing in his sheltered life to contradict what he has been brought up to believe.

Sure he did, at Hogwarts. He went to a school that actively challenged the prejudices of the day. He interacted with Muggle-borns who were clever and brave and talented. But he chose to ignore this. That's what I meant when I said he lacked intellectual curiosity or honesty. He constantly had his beliefs challenged but he didn't care.

[QUOTE=kittling;5541046]Before HBP when do we actually see Draco supporting Voldermort? I know we see a child hero worshiping someone he has no knowledge of but I mean actual tangible support.

When he called Hermine a Mudblood.


The problem is before HBP Draco is under 15 – very much still a child. A child who is brought up to believe certain things, who is a product of his environment and has seen nothing in his sheltered life to contradict what he has been brought up to believe.

As Birdie said, he was at Hogwarts since he was 11. He saw and heard different from what he grew up with. 15/16 isn't that young, if you don't know the difference between right and wrong by then, when will you?


I was always under the impression that Voldermort was more angry about Lucius’s treatment of the Horcrux diary & his los of the prophecy – for either one of those I think Voldermort was going to make Lucius’s life, & that of his family, a misery.

As what happened at the Ministery took place a good while after Voldemort's return and Lucius was very much in charge there, I have to differ in this opinion.

Neither was it Draco’s fault – it is almost certain that Lucius was a DE before Draco was born (or even conceived) so I really don’t see how any blame could be attached to Draco. :hmm:

I actually agreed with this point. I blame Draco for his own choices not his father's.


Here’s the point where I have sympathy for Draco – he was still a child at that point, his father was in jail, hi home was invaded and his family were under threat. What choice did he really feel he had at that point? He couldn’t even go to his ‘favourite professor’ because it was widely believed that he was also a loyal DE. What exactly was his way out at this point?

He's 15/16 years old. He's not a small child, he is an adolescent young man who for the first time is facing the consquences of his father's beliefs. Dumbledore was not a DE and Draco knew it. He had a choice to make and no, it wasn't easy. He made the choice for the wrong side and my sympathy is for the other. Katie Bell and Ron had no choice about what happened to them. I hate to say it but Draco deserved a lot worse than what happened to him. Child or youth he tried to kill another human being and almost succeeded in killing 2 more. He committed crimes and for that there are consequences.

He was stuck between a rock and a hard place at the age of 16 – many characters in the book have put others lives at risk as teenagers and not been without some understanding – is Draco’s position so different? The only difference I can see is that he is under more duress than any other 16 year old I can think of in the series.

Harry was younger than that in the graveyard facing off Voldemort. That's what I call pressure and being in a hard place.

I don’t believe any one else is either :)

I don’t recall any time where Draco was in the position where giving up his life would make any difference at all – let alone a positive one – so I don’t really see where this comparison works. :hmm:

Doing the right thing always makes a difference, even if the only difference is in how you see yourself.

At this point I don’t see Draco as someone with any loyalties – he has already tried to hamper the DE in their attempts to identify the trio – he seems more to be someone who is trying to survive; which seems like a fairly reasonable portrait of someone dealing with a situation that is deadly not just to themselves but their family. Of course I understand that you don’t agree with this take on matters, that is your right but to me the issue is not as clear cut as it seems to be for you. :)

He hesitated in identifying the Trio that's true. This is the only thing IMO we see him doing that might be construed as doing something postive, but as it has already been demonstrated Draco has trouble condemning someone to death when he is standing in front of them. So did he do it to save their lives or did he do it because he couldn't look them in the eyes while condemning them? He didn't do anything else to help them.

When he called Hermine a Mudblood.

While I do think Draco supported Voldemort (and joined him of his own free will or as much free will as an underaged person can have), pure-blood prejudice existed before Voldemort and it will exist after Voldemort.

Doing the right thing always makes a difference, even if the only difference is in how you see yourself.

That makes no sense in this context. Draco wasn't the Chosen One, he didn't have a piece of Voldemort's soul inside of him that needed to be destroyed so that Voldemort could be vanquished. That's why Harry had to die - not because it was the right thing to do but because it was necessary for getting rid of Voldemort.

Draco's death would certainly not have achieved that and I can't think of a point where it would have done much of anything.

[QUOTE=birdi86;5541073]While I do think Draco supported Voldemort (and joined him of his own free will or as much free will as an underaged person can have), pure-blood prejudice existed before Voldemort and it will exist after Voldemort.

Was Draco underage? I'll have to check the birthdates. Anyway he was very close to being of age. It's true that prejudice is an endemic evil, but I see it as if yuo are not against it, then you are for it. The evil will not go away if it is not fought, and Draco certainly did not fight against it.

That makes no sense in this context. Draco wasn't the Chosen One, he didn't have a piece of Voldemort's soul inside of him that needed to be destroyed so that Voldemort could be vanquished. That's why Harry had to die - not because it was the right thing to do but because it was necessary for getting rid of Voldemort.

Draco's death would certainly not have achieved that and I can't think of a point where it would have done much of anything.

It would have made a difference to Draco. That would have been the point. The point is that Draco betrayed his own humanity. I can't explain it any clearer than that. Some things have to high a price tag on your own soul. Draco's parents did not realise that and neither did Draco.

I don’t recall any time where Draco was in the position where giving up his life would make any difference at all – let alone a positive one – so I don’t really see where this comparison works. :hmm:

I can. In DH, Draco risks his life in order to try to save Gregory Goyle from the Fiendfyre. (All opinions of Goyle aside, I would have to consider saving a life, a positive difference. ;) )

Sure he did, at Hogwarts. He went to a school that actively challenged the prejudices of the day. He interacted with Muggle-borns who were clever and brave and talented. But he chose to ignore this. That's what I meant when I said he lacked intellectual curiosity or honesty. He constantly had his beliefs challenged but he didn't care.

I disagree. Where do you see evidence that Hogwarts was a school which challenged Draco's beliefs? Muggle studies was an optional class (which I am sure Draco did not opt to take, because his parents would have discouraged it). Draco was in a House with other like-minded students. And at no time can I recall a school teacher or administrator addressing the Pureblood position with the students, short of the Tower scene in HBP.

As for many Muggleborns with multiple positive qualities - I cannot recall that Draco encountered many such persons. He had Hermione in some of his classes, but one person who gets excellent grades can be an exception to a rule (and I see no reason to think Draco considered her to be a person of sterling character, as you/we might reasonably do. Draco knows her far less well.) Further, while the prejudice in some cases takes the form of expecting less magic of Muggleborns (see, e. g. Slughorn) this is not the only form we are shown it takes. Another belief presented to us by the books is the opinion that Muggleborns do not come by their magic naturally, but rather steal it. In other words, the prejudice is not always or necessarily a belief in the magical inferiority of Muggleborn wizards, so that encountering one who is not inferior does not have to contradict the belief.

[QUOTE=arithmancer;5541091]I can. In DH, Draco risks his life in order to try to save Gregory Goyle from the Fiendfyre. (All opinions of Goyle aside, I would have to consider saving a life, a positive difference. ;) )

Draco does indeed try to hold onto Goyle for as long as possible. Of course if he hadn't snuck back into the school with Goyle and Crabbe to try and capture Harry his life would not have been in danger. I am not so prepared to say that this was a good deed as the danger arose out of their criminal attempt on Harry. It's like the fruit of the poisoned tree. His efforts in holding on to Goyle arose because he and Goyle were engaged in a crime and the fire was partly their fault.

I disagree. Where do you see evidence that Hogwarts was a school which challenged Draco's beliefs? Muggle studies was an optional class (which I am sure Draco did not opt to take, because his parents would have discouraged it). Draco was in a House with other like-minded students. And at no time can I recall a school teacher or administrator addressing the Pureblood position with the students, short of the Tower scene in HBP.

Well there was the Headmaster's speech at the end of the GOF. Other than that there was the entire student body apart from Slytherin House against Voldemort's regime and the entire ethos of the school as a whole. Did there have to be classes that said torturing and murdering Muggleborns and Muggles was wrong? Draco could not have figured out for himself that being a Death Eater was not the ideal choice to make in life? Shouldn't the fact that his father had spent his life trying to hide and get rid of the artifacts of being a Death Eater have given him a clue? The schools I went to did not teach me that torture and murder was wrong but somehow I formed the idea on my own.

As for many Muggleborns with multiple positive qualities - I cannot recall that Draco encountered many such persons. He had Hermione in some of his classes, but one person who gets excellent grades can be an exception to a rule (and I see no reason to think Draco considered her to be a person of sterling character, as you/we might reasonably do. Draco knows her far less well.) Further, while the prejudice in some cases takes the form of expecting less magic of Muggleborns (see, e. g. Slughorn) this is not the only form we are shown it takes. Another belief presented to us by the books is the opinion that Muggleborns do not come by their magic naturally, but rather steal it. In other words, the prejudice is not always or necessarily a belief in the magical inferiority of Muggleborn wizards, so that encountering one who is not inferior does not have to contradict the belief.

He had an uncle by marraige in his immediate family. Narcissa could not have hidden this information from him. There is very little information on how many Muggleborns were at Hogwarts, but I rather doubt that Hermione was the only one. Anyway it doesn't matter. IMO, if Draco did not know that torture and murder was wrong no matter who you were torturing or murdering, then he deserved to go to Azkaban. Ignorance is not an excuse or a defense against breaking the law. As far as I know it was illegal to kill people under the Wizarding World's laws even if they were Muggleborn.

Before HBP when do we actually see Draco supporting Voldermort? I know we see a child hero worshiping someone he has no knowledge of but I mean actual tangible support.

When he called Hermine a Mudblood.

Well, he first called Hermione a Mudblood when he was 12 years old and Voldemort was, essentially, "Vapormort."

Joining the Death Eaters once Voldemort again became a tangible being - yes, that would be offering tangible support. But calling someone a name - particularly a name that has been around for a lot longer than Voldemort has (and doing it while there really is no such thing as Voldemort), is not tangible support, imo. I don't think it's really offering support for anything other than blood prejudice.

Blood prejudice in the Malfoy family, incidentally, dates back at least to Brutus Malfoy in 1675 (cf. Dumbledore's notes to Beedle the Bard) - which is about 250 years before Voldemort was born.

In addition, Draco was, as mentioned above, 12 years old. He was not a mature human being with the same level of moral culpability as an adult. For example, at 12, Regulus was seemingly a Voldemort fanboy.

He had a choice to make and no, it wasn't easy. He made the choice for the wrong side and my sympathy is for the other. Katie Bell and Ron had no choice about what happened to them. I hate to say it but Draco deserved a lot worse than what happened to him. Child or youth he tried to kill another human being and almost succeeded in killing 2 more. He committed crimes and for that there are consequences.

I'm not sure why sympathy has to be "either/or." For Dumbledore (the intended victim), it's "both/and." Dumbledore has sympathy on the unintended vicimts, and he has sympathy on Draco. In fact, Dumbledore hoped to ameliorate the consequences for Draco.

I'm sympathetic with Draco's plight. Deciding to die by defying Voldemort in order to do the right thing, and thereby sentencing his parents to die, could have been a noble gesture. But I don't think it's a decision that very many people would make.

Yes, Draco does make a wrong choice. But there are mitigating circumstances that inform that choice. Those mitigating circumstances do not make him guiltless, but they do make him less morally culpable than if he were sadistically enjoying the mayhem.

Well, he first called Hermione a Mudblood when he was 12 years old and Voldemort was, essentially, "Vapormort."

Joining the Death Eaters once Voldemort again became a tangible being - yes, that would be offering tangible support. But calling someone a name - particularly a name that has been around for a lot longer than Voldemort has (and doing it while there really is no such thing as Voldemort), is not tangible support, imo. I don't think it's really offering support for anything other than blood prejudice.

Blood prejudice in the Malfoy family, incidentally, dates back at least to Brutus Malfoy in 1675 (cf. Dumbledore's notes to Beedle the Bard) - which is about 260 years before Voldemort was born.

In addition, Draco was, as mentioned above, 12 years old. He was not a mature human being with the same level of moral culpability as an adult. For example, at 12, Regulus was seemingly a Voldemort fanboy.



I'm not sure why sympathy has to be "either/or." For Dumbledore (the intended victim), it's "both/and." Dumbledore has sympathy on the unintended vicimts, and he has sympathy on Draco. In fact, Dumbledore hoped to ameliorate the consequences for Draco.

I'm sympathetic with Draco's plight. Deciding to die by defying Voldemort in order to do the right thing, and thereby sentencing his parents to die, could have been a noble gesture. But I don't think it's a decision that very many people would make.

Yes, Draco does make a wrong choice. But there are mitigating circumstances that inform that choice. Those mitigating circumstances do not make him guiltless, but they do make him less morally culpable than if he were sadistically enjoying the mayhem.

I'm sorry to disagree with you CC. Dumbledore may have sympathy for Draco. I do not. He was in a hard place, that is not an excuse or a defence against attempted murder. That he was unsuccessful is why I call it attempted murder and not anything else. He tried to kill Dumbledore at least 3 times. On 2 of those attempts he did serious damage to Katie Bell and Ron. I am not forgiving of this, Dumbleore may forgive. That's his business.
I do say that Draco was supportive of Voldemort when he called Hermione a Mudblood. He was supportive of the mind set that allowed Voldemort to rise to power in the first place. He may have been 12 going on 13, but this is old enough to know what bigotry is. Ron knew and hated it.
I have never excused Regelus for being a Voldemort fanboy at 12, why would I excuse Draco?
Yes I admit that I am being hard on them. I am being hard because bigotry for me is something that should have a zero tolorence policy on it. The fact that it reigned so supreme for so long in the Malfoy family history is exactly the reason why I feel this way. Somebody a long, long time ago should have said no to it.

I agree with Leah that the Malfoys wouldn't walk out of the war with their reputations intact. Being a family of Death Eaters (whether Cissa was one or not) is not going to look good no matter how they contributed to Harry's victory.

I would hope not. Even though they avoided prison, I'd imagine their reputation was tarnished for a long time to come. I think the loss of prestige and influence would have had quite a negative effect on all of the Malfoys.

This is just me, but my pet theory is that Draco's thinning hair in the epilogue is a testament to the added burdens of being a former DE in a post-Voldemort world and having to work doubly hard for the honors his name once gave him.

I can see that happening, whether it contributed to his hair loss or not. And in those problems, I have no sympathy for Draco. He is reaping the rewards of his and his family's involvement in a terrorist group, and as for having to work for the prestige his name previously gave him, that just puts him on the same level as most of his peers, who don't have an influential name to fall back on.

As what happened at the Ministery took place a good while after Voldemort's return and Lucius was very much in charge there, I have to differ in this opinion.

It seems likely that Draco's task was a punishment for Lucius' failure at the Ministry. I think that was suggested in Spinners' End.

In other words, the prejudice is not always or necessarily a belief in the magical inferiority of Muggleborn wizards, so that encountering one who is not inferior does not have to contradict the belief.

But belief in inferiority is shown to be a part of it - Slughorn, who was on the moderate end of prejudice, was surprised that a Muggleborn was as good at magic, specifically Potions, as Lily Evans, and said he had been sure she must have been a Pureblood before. Lucius is disappointed that Draco was beaten by a girl of no wizarding family, implying that he believes anyone shoud be able to beat a "Mudblood" in magic, and especially his Pureblood son.

The schools I went to did not teach me that torture and murder was wrong but somehow I formed the idea on my own.

Good point, a teenager shouldn't have to be told that torture and murder is wrong. However, kids growing up with extremist parents are raised to think that people who are so-called "different" in whatever way are inferior, and their lives are not worth as much.This was clearly the mindset Lucius raised Draco with. However, I don't think it excuses Draco. It makes it understandable that Draco would be susceptible to that Voldemort, moreso than if he'd been raised by non-prejudiced parents.
Sirius broke away from this mindset, as did Andromeda -showing it is possible, if people are willing to open their eyes and see the evidence that their preconceived notions are wrong.

Yes, Draco does make a wrong choice. But there are mitigating circumstances that inform that choice. Those mitigating circumstances do not make him guiltless, but they do make him less morally culpable than if he were sadistically enjoying the mayhem.

Draco makes a lot of bad choices. And I know he was under pressure with his parents' lives under threat. However, that would have been cold comfort to the Bell and Weasley families. However, I am more sympathetic than I would have been, as I think he was very seriously considering taking Dumbledore's offer in HBP when he lowered his wand.

I think Draco became quite tunnel-visioned in his half-hearted attempts to get dangerous objects to Dumbledore. He didn't think of the innocent people in the chain between him and Dumbledore having the items. This made his attempts all the more dangerous, as Hermione comments at Ron's hospital bedside in HBP.

However, he couldn't physically commit the murder himself, nor would he definitively identify the Trio at Malfoy Manor. That doesn't make him a spectacular human being, imo. Anyone with a functioning conscience would find it hard to commit cold blooded murder staring directly in someone's face, or turn someone over to be murdered. It does show that Draco is a better person than his father, however, and with slightly more scruples.

I'm sorry to disagree with you CC. Dumbledore may have sympathy for Draco. I do not. He was in a hard place, that is not an excuse or a defence against attempted murder. That he was unsuccessful is why I call it attempted murder and not anything else. He tried to kill Dumbledore at least 3 times. On 2 of those attempts he did serious damage to Katie Bell and Ron. I am not forgiving of this, Dumbleore may forgive. That's his business.

True, and it was only pure chance that Katie and Ron did survive - if she had touched the necklace with her bare hands, or if Harry hadn't thought of or been able to get a bezoar, Draco would have been responsible for their murders. Considering who had actually suffered because of Draco's actions, it was their forgiveness he needed, not Dumbledore's.

I do say that Draco was supportive of Voldemort when he called Hermione a Mudblood. He was supportive of the mind set that allowed Voldemort to rise to power in the first place. He may have been 12 going on 13, but this is old enough to know what bigotry is. Ron knew and hated it.

Draco doesn't just use that foul term. He shows a dangerous, utterly malicious aspect to his bigotry in CoS, when he comments a few times that sooner or later a "Mudblood" will be killed by Slytherin's monster, and hopes it will be Hermione/that it was a "pity it wasn't Granger". At the age of fourteen/fifteen, at the end of GoF, he comments similarly, telling the Trio that Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers will be the first to go. Expressing a wish for people to die, merely because they exist, goes way beyond just keeping up an age-old prejudice, it's a dangerous mindset, and leads to becoming a dangerous adult.

IMO Draco changed a lot during the series. His character really evolved, and at the end he started to show things he wasn't able before.
There was an only thing that he didn't change, and it was caring about himself and his parents.


I don't think it is clear that he ever changed his views on blood purity.

The schools I went to did not teach me that torture and murder was wrong but somehow I formed the idea on my own.

But Draco was raised by a father who, according to Voldemort in GoF, once specialized in Muggle torture. I think it is conceivable that Lucius taught his son that some lives were more valuable than others. Parents can be a powerful influence on kids, especially in a society with no elementary education, television, internet or mass popular media as we know it. I doubt the Malfoys sent Draco to Muggle school as a child, so they were his primary influence in his most impressionable years.

Of course, that is not to say that people cannot rise above their upbringing, of course they can- look at Sirius, as well as the number of people throughout Muggle history like him, who came from bigoted households and grew up to oppose the views of their parents. The Harry Potter series emphasizes personal choices, which Draco certainly had. :shrug:

Did he redeem himself in the end? Not entirely. I think he simply lost his innocence. Draco was a great school bully, he could commit cruel pranks and say really nasty things, but when it came down to it, he wasn't a great Death Eater. He realized that murder and torture are easier said than done, and that Voldemort is not a great guy to have ruling the world. However, I don't think he ever changed his views on blood purity.

There is very little information on how many Muggleborns were at Hogwarts, but I rather doubt that Hermione was the only one.

I believe Rowling said somewhere that the school was 25% Muggleborn, 50% half-blood and 25% pureblood. Of course, it wouldn't matter if the school were 5% pureblood- as long as there were like-minded purebloods for Draco to converse with, he could hold on to his views and dismiss the achievements of the Muggleborns as "favoritism".

I have never excused Regelus for being a Voldemort fanboy at 12, why would I excuse Draco?

Because otherwise there would be absolutely no reason for people raised with bigotry to ever change their views: if all they get in return is neverending scorn, they might as well stick with their original circle... especially if they're not expected to actually act on the bigotry.

I am being hard because bigotry for me is something that should have a zero tolorence policy on it.

Bigotry is a rather broad term, eliza... your argument could easily be used to refute the logic behind certain Muggle health campaigns too.

Forgive me if again my sympathy is limited. His parents, IMO are in a bad situation because Lucius was caught red handed trying to murder a group of schoolchildren.

I thought Lucius was sent to the Ministry to retrieve the prophesy? Or is there a quote that I missed which hints at his murderous intent? :huh:

The difference between them is that Harry was quite willing to die to stop the killing and Draco was not. Perhap's that makes Harry a saint and Draco a sinner.

Actually... The difference between them is that Harry knew there was a chance the killing would stop if he was willing to die for it - Draco's death for either cause would have accomplished absolutely nothing. And that's what makes Harry the main character and Draco a secondary one.

The difference is that the Trio were trying to defeat the biggest evil around. They were not where they were, as part of a plan to support that biggest evil and their motives are not self serving.

No? So you think Voldemort would just let the Trio skip off home if they chose not to fight? Their families too? :huh:

I judge Draco as a bad, selfish, egoistical, bigoted and immature young man who thought that he was above everyone else and learnt a hard lesson....
Draco had months to think about decisions and choices. He made the wrong ones.

And therefore we should ignore the fact he had learned the lesson and judge his character based on his teenage beliefs forevermore?

Human society doesn't work that way, eliza; otherwise entire nations would have been wiped out based on their transgressions on others at some point in history.


The series author seems to believe in second chances. And If we can't trust Ms Rowling... who can we trust?

Was Draco underage? I'll have to check the birthdates.

He was 15 or 16 (depending on when, exactly, he joined), wizards become of age at 17. Remember, part of the reason no one believed Harry about Draco being a Death Eater was because he was young.

here do you see evidence that Hogwarts was a school which challenged Draco's beliefs?

That Lucius was so determined to have Dumbledore removed and wanted Draco to go to Durmstrang and tried to control the books allowed in the library (mentioned in Tales of Beedle the Bard) because he feared they would corrupt his son, and the professors that taught there speaks to how worried he was about Draco having his notion of pureblood supremacy challenged.

It would have made a difference to Draco.

Other than him being dead, probably not. There's more ways to help others than give your life for no reason as people like Ron and Hermione proved.

At no point in the series was there a need for Draco to sacrifice his life for another person or as part of a cause. The closest he came to it, eliza101 is when he did not run from the fire and made sure Goyle got to the brooms first. Which could indicate he is capable of laying down his life for someone dear to him.

And therefore we should ignore the fact he had learned the lesson and judge his character based on his teenage beliefs forevermore?

And if there's one thing JKR stresses in the books is that people never change not James Potter, not Snape, not Sirius, not Dumbledore. Nope.

Oh, wait. I got that wrong, didn't I? Darn.

I know we all try to be as objective as we can.. but in the end it's about our opinions because of the way we are.
I don't admire Draco, I think there are a really few things to admire in his personality.. but still, I can fell empathy with him.

A significant part of what we are, and which opinions and ideologies we have is because how we were raised. Draco was raised by a father that taught him that power really mathers, that all people are not the same - pure bloods are above from thoso who have muggle blood (half, and especially muggle borns). Lucius disliked (maybe hated) all of the muggles, he thought that they are not worth anything, that the wizards should take over them and rule them. And Lucius really belived in that. By the time he was a DE before the first fall of Voldemort he enjoyed to torture and kill muggles. He was pure evil and full of twisted ideas. And Draco grew in that. How can a kid not become like Draco growing up with all that?
Kids look up to their parents as they were some kind of heros... we all did. Kids think that what their parents think and do is the best way, and any other way it is just wrong. (I am talking in general). So he embraced all the twisted ideas about the muggles, he belived in that, and acted up to that. His father was just "cooking" the Draco he was. I don't know how big was his mother influence on all that, if any. But clearly we see that if she didn't belived in all of that, or if she tried to stop Draco from believing in all that - it didn't work.
I am sure Draco didn't attended to a muggle primary school (how could Lucius agree to that???). So Draco just grew up with his father, and the pure blood family. I just don't see how could he be different from anything we saw in the books.

I am not trying to justify anything he did. I really don't have any tolerance to people who brake the rules. I despite people who brake the law, and I strongly believe that they deserve their punnish. But I do see a difference from acting bad and being bad. And I don't think Draco was bad. He was a fool, and made a lot of wrong choices. At some opportunities he did have the chance to chose different, and at some opportunities I belive that "being bad" was the only acceptable chance he had. At every ocasion there are more than on chance to opt for. I also belive that Draco should have been punnished for the "bad things" he did. And he did.

I know that it is hard to try to see deeper in Draco because of the fact that he almost killed two different people, and had the intention to kill the third. (How strong was the intent? I don't believe it was hard enough considering the attempts he did....).


I just try to see the "good" sides about Draco. I try to look under his "bad guy" shell... And altought there's not much to see... I still look.

That's my opinion.

=Daggerstone;5541150]Because otherwise there would be absolutely no reason for people raised with bigotry to ever change their views: if all they get in return is neverending scorn, they might as well stick with their original circle... especially if they're not expected to actually act on the bigotry.
Does tolerating bigotry and excusing it promote change? The only way bigotry started to change in the American Deep South in the 60's was when people stood together and said no. The only reason apartheid was stopped in South Africa was when the world said no. Bigotry is not fought by standing by and saying it is understandable for someone to be a bigot because their great great grandfather was one and it's a family tradition, so let's be understanding and tolerant. It's fought by saying that those beliefs will not be tolerated in a civilised society. Bigots never want to change, they think they are right.

Bigotry is a rather broad term, eliza... your argument could easily be used to refute the logic behind certain Muggle health campaigns too.

Right at the moment I can't think of another word that conveys deep, ingrained prejudice that condones torture and murder. If any Health campaign that you know of condones such action, perhaps they should be reported.


I thought Lucius was sent to the Ministry to retrieve the prophesy? Or is there a quote that I missed which hints at his murderous intent? :huh:

I would have thought that the condition the children from Hogwarts were in would have spoken for itself. Is there a quote which excuses Lucius for what happened to them?

Actually... The difference between them is that Harry knew there was a chance the killing would stop if he was willing to die for it - Draco's death for either cause would have accomplished absolutely nothing. And that's what makes Harry the main character and Draco a secondary one.

And it was a chance Harry was willing to take. We never see anything Draco does that comes close, and I include his actions with Goyle in the Room of Requirements. I've already stated my feelings on that. If Draco had renounced Voldemort it would have helped him. I remember a quote, 'What does it serve a man if he gains the world and loses his soul.' I think it went like that. Draco may have died, but he would have died a worthwhile human being. I think that is something worth aiming for. Some things are worth dieing for and your soul is one of them.

No? So you think Voldemort would just let the Trio skip off home if they chose not to fight? Their families too? :huh:

As Harry's parents had already been killed by Voldemort I think he had a very good idea of how Voldemort treated families. This however has nothing to do with Draco's actions with the unknown Death Eater. Draco was more than happy to announce who he was and what side he was on. He didn't want to be hurt. Harry and Company wanted to be able to continue the fight against Voldemort which entailed the very good chance that they would be hurt. I fail to see the comparison.

And therefore we should ignore the fact he had learned the lesson and judge his character based on his teenage beliefs forevermore?

At the time of the Battle of Hogwarts, most certainly. If he behaved himself in later life and gave up his love affair with the Dark Arts and thinking that killing Muggleborns was good sport, then yes I would say he had reformed. But forgive me if I would want proof of that.

Human society doesn't work that way, eliza; otherwise entire nations would have been wiped out based on their transgressions on others at some point in history.

That is why we have United Nations peacekeeping forces in many countries today. Because taking the word of trangressors and leaving them to deal with those they consider enemies, leads to death and suffering.

The series author seems to believe in second chances. And If we can't trust Ms Rowling... who can we trust?

I believe in second chances too, they have to be earned with proof of change and that usually takes a lot longer than a breakfast at Hogwarts.
If somone who believed as Draco did sincerely wanted to change and did have regret for all the harm he had caused, then that person would have no stronger friend than me. But I will not excuse prejudice at any time. Does that make me prejudiced? I'm not perfect and I make mistakes, so I suppose I could be. The thing is I admit it, Draco never does.

Bigotry is not fought by standing by and saying it is understandable for someone to be a bigot because their great great grandfather was one and it's a family tradition, so let's be understanding and tolerant. It's fought by saying that those beliefs will not be tolerated in a civilised society.

IMO, it is most effectively fought by doing both.

Right at the moment I can't think of another word that conveys deep, ingrained prejudice that condones torture and murder. If any Health campaign that you know of condones such action, perhaps they should be reported.

Soo... as long as it doesn't involve murder and torture, prejudiced behaviour should be condoned? I doubt Draco was regaled with tales of torture as a child (he certainly doesn't have the stomach for it as a teenager), yet he still followed in his father's prejudiced footsteps...

And it was a chance Harry was willing to take. We never see anything Draco does that comes close, and I include his actions with Goyle in the Room of Requirements.

I agree. But Draco's actions were never meant to be as influential as Harry's, so the fact that Ms Rowling did give him the ROR moment hints at her willingness to redeem him. IMO, of course.

Also... would you mind if I quoted you on another thread? I really liked your arguments here. :agree:

Draco was more than happy to announce who he was and what side he was on. He didn't want to be hurt. Harry and Company wanted to be able to continue the fight against Voldemort which entailed the very good chance that they would be hurt. I fail to see the comparison.

The way I see it, it's self-interest both ways: it's just the fact that Harry's priorities are more in line with our own that makes us gloss over that part. They are both at that point doing what they have been drilled for over the past 7 years...

At the time of the Battle of Hogwarts, most certainly. If he behaved himself in later life and gave up his love affair with the Dark Arts and thinking that killing Muggleborns was good sport, then yes I would say he had reformed. But forgive me if I would want proof of that.

I agree - the only difference is I find The Epilogue proof enough. :)


And yes, I do have a reply for the other points too... but they are completely off-topic. :lol:

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?
Although you could guess from that first scene in Madame Malkin's that Draco was going to be Harry's main nemesis (At school, anyway...Voldemort doesn't count :p), and it was probably J.K. Rowling's intention all along to have him become a Death Eater (She did say she had the series mainly planned out from the start), I believe that from what we see of him in SS/PS his fate could have gone either way in later books. I mean, there were several other characters later on in the series that displayed the same kind of arrogance and bullying as children or teens (James Potter and Sirius Black come immediately to mind)--but most of them didn't turn out to be Death Eaters. In fact, they were important members of the Order. So in my opinion, although Draco held the attitudes (Hate of Muggles, mudbloods, etc.) of a typical Death Eater, the fact that Draco later became a Death Eater is more foreshadowed in his choices and attitudes in later books in the series. Someone who's new to the series probably wouldn't guess that he would ever become anything other than a harmless schoolboy bully (I mean, even if he had always wanted to become a Death Eater, been raised knowing that that was his destiny, that didn't matter. We didn't know that, because the series is told from Harry's POV, and Harry didn't even know what a Death Eater was at that point in his life...)

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.

:agree: I think that that pressure and high level of expectance from his parents could have played a big part in why he became the person he did, and why he ended up making some of the bad choices he did...but it still doesn't excuse them. Even if he had those values drilled into his head for all of his childhood, if he was a truly good person (Which, obviously, he is not) he would have realized, when he got a little older, how wrong his parents were. He would have gone against them, regardless of the consequences. He always had a choice in things, it was his life.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

I think his decision to become a Death Eater mainly came from a desire to please his father and live up to his expectations, a desire to gain the respect and admiration of his fellow Slytherins, and a fear that if he chose anything other fate but that one, he as well as his family would be punished. That and he had probably lived his entire life in the hopes of becoming a Death Eater. It's just how he was raised...he probably didn't expect that he would be doing anything else at that point in his life...

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.

:agree: Once again...very true. I think that this trait of using his status as a wealthy pureblood, or who he is connected with, as a means to gain "friends" was probably learned from his father. He would have noticed his father's interactions with other Death Eaters from a young age--noticed how he bullied people into giving him what he wanted and chose his "friends" based on wealth and social standing. And I think that the quality of prizing those things most in a person stuck with him later in life.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?

I don't think that anyone in the Harry Potter series can be written off as "just plain mean." That's what makes the books so...well, so good :love: The complex characters. I think it's obvious in all seven of the books that Draco is a bully and a coward. IMO, though, "Just plain mean" would describe, for example, someone who bullied people for no reason, just because they enjoyed it. And although some might argue that this is exactly what Draco did, I think that he did have reasons. He had grown up around people who thought that way, first of all, and the environment in which we grow up in shapes who we become later in many ways. Second, he truly believed in the value of wealthy pureblood wizards over, say, poor muggle-born wizards. He didn't just tease people for fun. One thing I dislike, though, is when people excuse Draco's actions by saying that he was forced to do it, he only did it because of fear, etc. The problem with his fear as an excuse for his action is that we've seen throughout the entire series that fear is never an excuse. IMO, Sirius Black put it perfectly when he said this: "I would have died...I would have died, rather than betray my friends!" Sure, this isn't completely applicable to Draco's situation, but if he was a good person, if he was a brave person, he would have realized the error of his ways and done the right thing, rather than doing whatever was neccessary to save his own skin.

[QUOTE=Daggerstone;5541342]IMO, it is most effectively fought by doing both.

That is certainly an optimistic point of view. A bit more optimistic than mine.

Soo... as long as it doesn't involve murder and torture, prejudiced behaviour should be condoned? I doubt Draco was regaled with tales of torture as a child (he certainly doesn't have the stomach for it as a teenager), yet he still followed in his father's prejudiced footsteps...

That was not what I meant. You questioned my choice of the word 'bigotry' and I explained why I used it. I also said that I believe in a zero tolerance stand on bigotry. I don't know what bed time stories Lucius told Draco. I very much doubt I would tell them to my grandchildren. Draco did follow in his fathers footsteps, unlike his cousin Sirius and his aunt who were brought up in the same family with the same stories.


I agree. But Draco's actions were never meant to be as influential as Harry's, so the fact that Ms Rowling did give him the ROR moment hints at her willingness to redeem him. IMO, of course.

Also... would you mind if I quoted you on another thread? I really liked your arguments here. :agree:

Draco's redemption lies in the future. It is his behaviour before before the epilogue I find repugnant. At the time of the Epilogue all we see is a man who is showing signs of a receding hairline. From that quick view it is impossible to tell whether Draco was reformed or not. When I say that if Draco had acted in a positive was and it would have helped him. I meant that if he had acted in a positive way it would have helped him with his own self esteem and that would have led to him being happy in life. From the glimpse we see of Draco, somehow I didn't get the impression he was that happy. I could be wrong, it is only a glimpse.


The way I see it, it's self-interest both ways: it's just the fact that Harry's priorities are more in line with our own that makes us gloss over that part. They are both at that point doing what they have been drilled for over the past 7 years...

I don't find it self-interested to be putting your life on the line to fight in a war that there is by no means surety you will survive. Especially when that war is being fought against a great evil who will kill you and all you hold dear. At least Draco knew that he was not in danger of being murdered out of hand by the Order of the Phoenix. It is entirely self interest that prompts Draco to state who he is to the Death Eater.


I agree - the only difference is I find The Epilogue proof enough. :)

I find the Epilogue ambiguous. But perhaps Draco did prove himself to be better than he was as a teenager. I would hope so.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?
Although you could guess from that first scene in Madame Malkin's that Draco was going to be Harry's main nemesis (At school, anyway...Voldemort doesn't count :p), and it was probably J.K. Rowling's intention all along to have him become a Death Eater (She did say she had the series mainly planned out from the start), I believe that from what we see of him in SS/PS his fate could have gone either way in later books. I mean, there were several other characters later on in the series that displayed the same kind of arrogance and bullying as children or teens (James Potter and Sirius Black come immediately to mind)--but most of them didn't turn out to be Death Eaters. In fact, they were important members of the Order. So in my opinion, although Draco held the attitudes (Hate of Muggles, mudbloods, etc.) of a typical Death Eater, the fact that Draco later became a Death Eater is more foreshadowed in his choices and attitudes in later books in the series. Someone who's new to the series probably wouldn't guess that he would ever become anything other than a harmless schoolboy bully (I mean, even if he had always wanted to become a Death Eater, been raised knowing that that was his destiny, that didn't matter. We didn't know that, because the series is told from Harry's POV, and Harry didn't even know what a Death Eater was at that point in his life...)

Draco was always meant to be a DE, I think he was meant to be one even before he was born. That's how Lucius raised him to be. All that Lucius taught him lead to that.
You say Harry didn't know what a DE was in the early beginning. And in my opinion Draco didn't either. I guess he did know more than Harry did about DE (considering his family).. but my point is he didn't truly understand what being a DE is all about. DE are not just school bullies who enjoy playing (harmful) pranks on students. The DE really enjoy torturing people, make them hurt badly, watch them suffering, kill them. As Draco was bad, he wasn't able to torture. There's a difference between being bad and being a monster. And once again I will say, I don't think Draco was a good person with a big heart, I just think he wasn't that bad.

Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.

So how could he not become what he was??

:agree: I think that that pressure and high level of expectance from his parents could have played a big part in why he became the person he did, and why he ended up making some of the bad choices he did...but it still doesn't excuse them. Even if he had those values drilled into his head for all of his childhood, if he was a truly good person (Which, obviously, he is not) he would have realized, when he got a little older, how wrong his parents were. He would have gone against them, regardless of the consequences. He always had a choice in things, it was his life.

I agree he had a big pressure from his family, especially his father, and I don't excuse him either for the bad things he did. But still I don't believe everybody has the strengh to stan up against his family and claim "I disagree, I think you're all wrong" and leave. Not everyone is as strong to do that. And that's humanity too.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

I think his decision to become a Death Eater mainly came from a desire to please his father and live up to his expectations, a desire to gain the respect and admiration of his fellow Slytherins, and a fear that if he chose anything other fate but that one, he as well as his family would be punished. That and he had probably lived his entire life in the hopes of becoming a Death Eater. It's just how he was raised...he probably didn't expect that he would be doing anything else at that point in his life...

I think both. I think his decisions came from fear but also from his will. And also most the things he say and does are to please his father. Lucius is his role model. He would do anything to please him, to hear his father is proud of him.
And also.. after all those years of hearing his father's ideas.. by the end at some point he believed.

Draco was always meant to be a DE, I think he was meant to be one even before he was born. That's how Lucius raised him to be. All that Lucius taught him lead to that.
You say Harry didn't know what a DE was in the early beginning. And in my opinion Draco didn't either. I guess he did know more than Harry did about DE (considering his family).. but my point is he didn't truly understand what being a DE is all about. DE are not just school bullies who enjoy playing (harmful) pranks on students. The DE really enjoy torturing people, make them hurt badly, watch them suffering, kill them. As Draco was bad, he wasn't able to torture. There's a difference between being bad and being a monster. And once again I will say, I don't think Draco was a good person with a big heart, I just think he wasn't that bad.

I think both. I think his decisions came from fear but also from his will. And also most the things he say and does are to please his father. Lucius is his role model. He would do anything to please him, to hear his father is proud of him.
And also.. after all those years of hearing his father's ideas.. by the end at some point he believed.

IMO all this means is that Draco's views and policies, whether they were his own or his father's, had to be fought. Feeling sorry for the position he was in does not change the fact that he got in that position of his own free will. I cannot give him sympathy because of his age, because Harry, Hermione, Ron, Neville and Ginny were all the same age. They fought against prejudice and Ron overcomes his own prejudice about werewolves and house elves. Neville overcomes his fears and uncertainties instilled in him by his grandmother to be a fine youth and man. Being young is only an excuse for so long, he was at Hogwarts the exact same length of time as the other pupils in his year and not all of them ended school with the same beliefs they started with.

IMO all this means is that Draco's views and policies, whether they were his own or his father's, had to be fought. Feeling sorry for the position he was in does not change the fact that he got in that position of his own free will. I cannot give him sympathy because of his age, because Harry, Hermione, Ron, Neville and Ginny were all the same age. They fought against prejudice and Ron overcomes his own prejudice about werewolves and house elves. Neville overcomes his fears and uncertainties instilled in him by his grandmother to be a fine youth and man. Being young is only an excuse for so long, he was at Hogwarts the exact same length of time as the other pupils in his year and not all of them ended school with the same beliefs they started with.


I don't feel sorry for Draco. I don't justify the things he does, or the way he thinks. I try to understand where does all come from.
And, as I said before, not everybody has the strengh to fight against what was he raised with, against his family, agains his father. I don't say he shouldn't do that (beacuse I think he should), I just say he wasn't strong enough to do that. I don't excuse him for being young. I don't excuse him at all.
I just try to see the human in him. And humans have prejudices, ideologies, opinions, family pressures. Draco had this strong will to please his father. To be just the way he wanted him to be. And he was weak inside, because he never had to fight for what he wanted. He had all served. And if something didn't go the way he wanted to, he had his daddy to fix it. And that's why his personality was so weak. And because of that, he wasn't strong to fight, and the only thing that he thought he was able to, was to "surrender".

I don't feel sorry for Draco. I don't justify the things he does, or the way he thinks. I try to understand where does all come from.
And, as I said before, not everybody has the strengh to fight against what was he raised with, against his family, agains his father. I don't say he shouldn't do that (beacuse I think he should), I just say he wasn't strong enough to do that. I don't excuse him for being young. I don't excuse him at all.
I just try to see the human in him. And humans have prejudices, ideologies, opinions, family pressures. Draco had this strong will to please his father. To be just the way he wanted him to be. And he was weak inside, because he never had to fight for what he wanted. He had all served. And if something didn't go the way he wanted to, he had his daddy to fix it. And that's why his personality was so weak. And because of that, he wasn't strong to fight, and the only thing that he thought he was able to, was to "surrender".

Perhaps you are a much nicer person than I am addie. I can see where you are coming from but to me there is not that much to undertand. And understanding him does not help him develop a backbone. I think what Draco needed was a long course in tough love. Very tough love.

Perhaps you are a much nicer person than I am addie. I can see where you are coming from but to me there is not that much to undertand. And understanding him does not help him develop a backbone. I think what Draco needed was a long course in tough love. Very tough love.


I guess because the fact that actually I'm not a nice person I understand him. I'm cold, distant, stone-heart, and maybe sometimes "bad". And that's the reason I understand him, I come from the point I can see through him because I was kind of there.
And I absolutly agree with you that he needed a long course in tough love.

I guess because the fact that actually I'm not a nice person I understand him. I'm cold, distant, stone-heart, and maybe sometimes "bad". And that's the reason I understand him, I come from the point I can see through him because I was kind of there.
And I absolutly agree with you that he needed a long course in tough love.

And I will leave it there. Also no fan of Harry Potter is cold, distant with a stone heart. If no one has welcomed you to the forum yet, Welcome To The Forum.

And I will leave it there. Also no fan of Harry Potter is cold, distant with a stone heart. If no one has welcomed you to the forum yet, Welcome To The Forum.

Thank you :)

Draco was always meant to be a DE, I think he was meant to be one even before he was born. That's how Lucius raised him to be. All that Lucius taught him lead to that.
You say Harry didn't know what a DE was in the early beginning. And in my opinion Draco didn't either. I guess he did know more than Harry did about DE (considering his family).. but my point is he didn't truly understand what being a DE is all about. DE are not just school bullies who enjoy playing (harmful) pranks on students. The DE really enjoy torturing people, make them hurt badly, watch them suffering, kill them. As Draco was bad, he wasn't able to torture. There's a difference between being bad and being a monster. And once again I will say, I don't think Draco was a good person with a big heart, I just think he wasn't that bad.

I agree that Draco's parents raised him to be a Death Eater from the beginning, and that despite this he was by no means a monster. I mean, I think that the main reason he wanted to become a DE in the first place was because he wanted to live up to his father's standards. He probably had an overly romantic idea of what it was like, because he was raised hearing all about their noble cause. That made becoming a DE something to look forward to. When the time actually came, though, he began to realize that it wasn't at all what he had expected. Like you said, this wasn't about bullying or bragging. This was serious stuff. And in my mind, it's his inability to enjoy killing or torturing that seperates Draco from the other Death Eaters--Bellatrix particularly, and maybe even his own father. It wasn't so much that he disagreed with their ideas/principles, though...just that he couldn't stomach the actual violence when it came down to it.

I agree he had a big pressure from his family, especially his father, and I don't excuse him either for the bad things he did. But still I don't believe everybody has the strengh to stan up against his family and claim "I disagree, I think you're all wrong" and leave. Not everyone is as strong to do that. And that's humanity too.

I guess what I meant when I said that a good person would have gone against what his parents said was that even though Draco didn't like torturing/killing people, like the other DE's did, he never really disagreed with the things his family and Voldemort did. I believe that he strongly supported their values, even though that might just have been because he was raised that way. It's not so much the fact that he didn't go against his parents that makes me dislike him...it's the fact that he never even had the desire to (At least, that's the conclusion that I draw from what we see of him in the books, which, admittedly, is a very limited perspective on his character).


I think both. I think his decisions came from fear but also from his will. And also most the things he say and does are to please his father. Lucius is his role model. He would do anything to please him, to hear his father is proud of him.
And also.. after all those years of hearing his father's ideas.. by the end at some point he believed.

And that's the sad part. IMO, much of Draco's character was developed by the pressures put upon him from his parents, specifically his father--he never really got the chance to make his own way in life, he was always having to live up to others' expectations of him. That's one reason I sympathize with him. Since he was raised so apart from other kids, in his pureblood-obsessed family, he never got the chance to learn how to make friends or anything. Maybe if he had been able to make friends at Hogwarts--for example, like Sirius did--he would have realized how skewed his father's beliefs really were. Maybe he would have had the chance to change his path in life. However, since the main influences in his life were his parents, who had had his life mapped out from the start, he never really had a choice in things...or an incentive to go against them.

But that wasn't the question and futhermore, neither Ron, Harry, Hermione, or Ginny are above inflicting pain on someone. Even someone who has not hit them first (as they have all proven). That doesn't mean they'll torture someone. So I'm not sure where you trying to go with this. Oh, but I think it does. It's not simple pain. He stomps on Harry's face. That nose is more than broken. That kind of pain is, imo, similar to the kind that would be inflicted in simple torture, not the kind the Longbottoms recieved, but maybe similar to the kind Hermione recieved or the Carrows were doing to students. The trio and Ginny may cause pain but not that kind of pain. Draco did. I think that does answer the question, because it does show the level to which he will stoop. It shows what he will do.



They weren't at the top with Voldemort in charge. In DH they were only above Pettigrew and once he was dead, it was Lucius and Narcissa that Voldemort ordered around the same way he had Pettigrew.

They had very little left to lose and I think Narcissa realized that.They weren't at the top at this point, no, but I think Lucius might have thought there was a chance he could get back at the top. Maybe if Draco had succeeded (actually doing the task himself) the Malfoys would have moved up the ladder. The thing with Voldemort is anyone can be at the top at anytime, or rather think they're at the top. I'm sure Malfoys know this and believe if Voldemort wins they will eventually be able to redeem themselves and be at the top. I'm not talking about Voldemort's line of Death Eaters. I'm talking about in the wizarding world. They will be above all those who were not Death Eaters.

That kind of pain is, imo, similar to the kind that would be inflicted in simple torture, not the kind the Longbottoms recieved, but maybe similar to the kind Hermione recieved or the Carrows were doing to students.

Hermione, the Longbottoms, and the students under the Carrows were Cruciated. Hermione and the Longbottoms were Cruciated repeatedly. That is nowhere near similar to what happened to Harry and Harry would know since he'd already been Cruciated by Voldemort.

Futhermore, if that's similar to torture what do you call repeatedly hexing someone who is already prone on the floor and no longer fighting back like Harry and crew did at the end of OOTP?

Sorry, but if you consider what Draco did similar to torture, than what Harry and friends did a few months prior definitely counts.

I think Lucius might have thought there was a chance he could get back at the top.

Doesn't mean it was going to happen. His were the hopes of a broken and desperate man.

The thing with Voldemort is anyone can be at the top at anytime

What do you base this on? It appears from the start there are four Death Eaters Voldemort keeps closest to him: Lucius, Snape, Bellatrix, and Pettigrew. This doesn't change throughout the series. And with Pettigrew's death, Lucius moved into the gopher/joke position.

hey will be above all those who were not Death Eaters.

No, they wouldn't. Know why? Because Draco was the Master of the Elder Wand. They were always doomed, even if they didn't know it at first. Though after they failed again and the Trio escaped, Narcissa began to realize what was happening.