Draco Malfoy: Character Analysis

Where does it say in canon that Draco had any kind of private tutor? We know he has been taught to fly but that's about it (and the Weasley kids have also learned that). As children aren't permitted to do magic outside school, I doubt that Lucius Malfoy (who wants to look like a 'good guy' in the eyes of wizarding law) would do anything as obviously illegal as engage a private tutor for Draco in magic during school holidays.

He might turn a blind eye to his son practicing magic at home, as we know that the ministry can only pinpoint the location of magic, not who did it, so kids in wizarding homes can get away with practicing magic and it is up to their parents to enforce the law there. But a private tutor would be too obvious. Also I don't think Draco shows any signs of having been privately tutored: if he had been he'd be much better than everyone else in lessons, and we don't see that at all.

The only time anyone tutors him outside Hogwarts in canon is Bellatrix in the summer between books 5 and 6- and this is more to train him in being a Death Eater than to improve his school marks! So I'm not sure where this whole thing about a private tutor is coming from.


I'm manly talking about potions which is a subject Draco could get a tutor and it not be illegal as potions doesn't involve wand work.

It would see unrealistic that Lucius wouldn't get his son a tutor as it has been shown that he is willing to spend almost anything to give his son a advantage (when he bought the entire Slytherin team new brooms). I could see Lucius giving Draco a tutor so he has a advantage over all his class mates and beat them as Lucius would hate it when his son was being beaten at school as it reflects badly on the entire Malfoy family (and as we know image is very important to Lucius).

I'm manly talking about potions which is a subject Draco could get a tutor and it not be illegal as potions doesn't involve wand work.

Potions does involve using magic as JKR confirmed.

Q: Can Muggles brew potions if they follow the exact instructions and they have all the ingredients?

Rowling: Well, I’d have to say no, because there is always ... there is a magical component to the potion, not just the ingredients. So, at some point you’re going to have to use a wand

Source: http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2006/0801-radiocityreading1partial.html

I imagine Draco was home schooled before Hogwarts like other wizarding children. However, I am not so sure about him having tutor to teach him Potions as we see it does contain a magical element. Also he does not seem to have an advantage of knowedge over the others in the class, which I would expect if he had been receiving private tuition in the subject.

I tend to agree that it is very difficult to stop hating a group of people when you are conditioned to do so from a very young age by someone who's opinions you trust, like Draco would have trusted his father's. It does take someone who has an open mind and who is an independent thinker to question the validity of their beliefs when they encounter evidence contrary to what they've been taught. Draco was not able to do this. Rather than living in a "bubble" (and therefore being somewhat shielded from seeing the truth), I believe he was just too secure in his beliefs to question them. Also, it's possible he was able to explain away that Hermione's academic superiority was just a fluke and that all other muggleborns aren't like that. It's unclear as to whether he is able to change his worldview as an adult, or at least to moderate his views a bit (I haven't read DH in a very long time, but as I recall he only makes a cameo in the epilogue and doesn't speak at all). I would like to think that Draco didn't teach Scorpius to hate muggleborns and muggles, but realistically he probably would have passed on at least some portion of these thoughts to Scorpius.


I agree with most. With Draco, I belive there is a combination between living in a "buble", and being secure about his beliefs. I think those two are connected with each other. Because Draco lived in his buble, and wasn't able to see the truth and, IMO, didn't even want to see the truth, he was so secure about his beliefs. He was taught to hate muggle born and half blooded, he grew up with this belief, and because he was so sure he was right, he didn't even try to get close to them, he wasn't able to see the truth about them. He was in his buble, didn't want to know the truth because he was secure about his belief, so he continued to live in his buble. It is like a circle.
I would like to believe that Draco as a grown-up did realise the truth about muggle borns and half-blooded, but still didn't like them that much. It is hard to change completely your beliefs, especially when you grew up with them. I believe that he didn't hate them anymore, but it doesn't mean that he loved them. I would like to think he didn't pass the blood prejudice to Scorpius, but I don't belive he taught him to loved them. Just to live with them in peace.

I would like to believe that Draco as a grown-up did realise the truth about muggle borns and half-blooded, but still didn't like them that much. It is hard to change completely your beliefs, especially when you grew up with them. I believe that he didn't hate them anymore, but it doesn't mean that he loved them. I would like to think he didn't pass the blood prejudice to Scorpius, but I don't belive he taught him to loved them. Just to live with them in peace.

I believe after all things that happened in DH, the Malfoys were less proud of themselves and had a litle bit more realistic view of their situation. I hope this prevented Droco from teaching his son hatred towards Mugles and Muggleborn wizards. But I can't see him as a Mugle lover, either.

I agree with most. With Draco, I belive there is a combination between living in a "buble", and being secure about his beliefs. I think those two are connected with each other. Because Draco lived in his buble, and wasn't able to see the truth and, IMO, didn't even want to see the truth, he was so secure about his beliefs. He was taught to hate muggle born and half blooded, he grew up with this belief, and because he was so sure he was right, he didn't even try to get close to them, he wasn't able to see the truth about them. He was in his buble, didn't want to know the truth because he was secure about his belief, so he continued to live in his buble. It is like a circle.

There are none so blind as those who will not see, as the saying goes. And Draco did refuse to see. He chose not to see what was right under his nose from the age of eleven -that Muggleborns were not filthy subhuman beings, that they were boys and girls, just like himself, working in class just like himself, and with personalities of their own, just like himself and his Pureblood family and friends. It was Draco's choice not to see what was in front of his eyes. His upbringing doesn't excuse that - given the choice between what's right and what's easy - Draco took the easy option, to cling to what he'd been told, rather than looking at what he could see with his own eyes.
I don't think that's excusable. I don't think it excuses his delight at the idea of the monster of Slytherin killing his classmates and desire to help with the crimes; his hope that Hermione would be the next, and fatal victim; his taunt about Cedric, Muggle-lovers and Mudbloods dying, or any other actions that were founded in prejudice. It's a reason for his behaviour, yes, but, imo, it doesn't excuse it or make it understandable. It's disturbing that a boy of twelve should relish the idea of classmates being murdered.

I would like to believe that Draco as a grown-up did realise the truth about muggle borns and half-blooded, but still didn't like them that much. It is hard to change completely your beliefs, especially when you grew up with them. I believe that he didn't hate them anymore, but it doesn't mean that he loved them. I would like to think he didn't pass the blood prejudice to Scorpius, but I don't belive he taught him to loved them. Just to live with them in peace.

I believe after all things that happened in DH, the Malfoys were less proud of themselves and had a litle bit more realistic view of their situation. I hope this prevented Droco from teaching his son hatred towards Mugles and Muggleborn wizards. But I can't see him as a Mugle lover, either.

I would think that at the very least he raised his son not to believe that he had the right to kill Muggles and Muggleborns. Draco possibly told Scorpius that Muggles and Muggleborns were "undesirables", but that they had to "put up with them".

There are none so blind as those who will not see, as the saying goes. And Draco did refuse to see. He chose not to see what was right under his nose from the age of eleven -that Muggleborns were not filthy subhuman beings, that they were boys and girls, just like himself, working in class just like himself, and with personalities of their own, just like himself and his Pureblood family and friends. It was Draco's choice not to see what was in front of his eyes. His upbringing doesn't excuse that - given the choice between what's right and what's easy - Draco took the easy option, to cling to what he'd been told, rather than looking at what he could see with his own eyes.
I don't think that's excusable. I don't think it excuses his delight at the idea of the monster of Slytherin killing his classmates and desire to help with the crimes; his hope that Hermione would be the next, and fatal victim; his taunt about Cedric, Muggle-lovers and Mudbloods dying, or any other actions that were founded in prejudice. It's a reason for his behaviour, yes, but, imo, it doesn't excuse it or make it understandable. It's disturbing that a boy of twelve should relish the idea of classmates being murdered.





I would think that at the very least he raised his son not to believe that he had the right to kill Muggles and Muggleborns. Draco possibly told Scorpius that Muggles and Muggleborns were "undesirables", but that they had to "put up with them".

I would have to agree with this. IMO, Draco as he is portrayed in the books relishes feeling superior. We see this in his first encounter with Harry. His first thought when meeting Harry is to ascertain if Harry is the right sort. Lucius may have taught Draco this, (it is never shown in canon, so cannot be considered as a given fact), but Draco seems to be all too eager to find out the important facts on his own. There is no bubble around Draco here, anymore than there is around Harry. Draco is on his own in the clothing shop and doing a very good job of insulting Harry and then Hagrid. Draco liked the feeling superior. Your likes and dislikes are your own. Lucius may have liked lima beans, Draco may have loathed them. In the same vein, Lucius may not have thought about his so called superiority one way or another, Draco seems to love it. Lucius and Draco may have loved each other as a family, as human beings they did not give a toss about other families. As long as they were safe no one else counted.

There are none so blind as those who will not see, as the saying goes. And Draco did refuse to see. He chose not to see what was right under his nose from the age of eleven -that Muggleborns were not filthy subhuman beings, that they were boys and girls, just like himself, working in class just like himself, and with personalities of their own, just like himself and his Pureblood family and friends. It was Draco's choice not to see what was in front of his eyes. His upbringing doesn't excuse that - given the choice between what's right and what's easy - Draco took the easy option, to cling to what he'd been told, rather than looking at what he could see with his own eyes.
I don't think that's excusable. I don't think it excuses his delight at the idea of the monster of Slytherin killing his classmates and desire to help with the crimes; his hope that Hermione would be the next, and fatal victim; his taunt about Cedric, Muggle-lovers and Mudbloods dying, or any other actions that were founded in prejudice. It's a reason for his behaviour, yes, but, imo, it doesn't excuse it or make it understandable. It's disturbing that a boy of twelve should relish the idea of classmates being murdered.





I would think that at the very least he raised his son not to believe that he had the right to kill Muggles and Muggleborns. Draco possibly told Scorpius that Muggles and Muggleborns were "undesirables", but that they had to "put up with them".


I never said I excuse Draco for his acts. In fact,I've always said I don't. All I'm saying is that I can understand where his acts come from, and I'm trying to understand why he acted the way he did and why was he like that. But understanding it is not the same as excusing. Calling someone a mudblood can be excused? Wishing for "mudbloods" to get killed can be excused? Not caring about anyone but himself can be excused? Not caring about people's lives, and also putting them in risk can be excused? Of course not. I try to see why was he that way, why he acted that way, why he didn't care about anyone, why he didn't see the things that were just under his nose - like prejudycing "mudbloods" without even knowing them...

I also don't belive that he wasn't taught by his father most of his actions. Like the blood prejudice and his superiorness, and so on... It is true it is not written in the books, but in my opinion, he was not just maybe taught by his father, I'm sure he got most of his nasties behaviors from him.

I'm not makig facts, I'm just expressing my own opinion...
I guess I've got too much empathy for Draco...

I never said I excuse Draco for his acts. In fact,I've always said I don't. All I'm saying is that I can understand where his acts come from, and I'm trying to understand why he acted the way he did and why was he like that. But understanding it is not the same as excusing. Calling someone a mudblood can be excused? Wishing for "mudbloods" to get killed can be excused? Not caring about anyone but himself can be excused? Not caring about people's lives, and also putting them in risk can be excused? Of course not. I try to see why was he that way, why he acted that way, why he didn't care about anyone, why he didn't see the things that were just under his nose - like prejudycing "mudbloods" without even knowing them...

I also don't belive that he wasn't taught by his father most of his actions. Like the blood prejudice and his superiorness, and so on... It is true it is not written in the books, but in my opinion, he was not just maybe taught by his father, I'm sure he got most of his nasties behaviors from him.

I'm not makig facts, I'm just expressing my own opinion...
I guess I've got too much empathy for Draco...

My problem is I have seen a lot of behaviour from people like Draco. I understand very well where it comes from and what drives it. I understand and I do not empathise. For me it is very simple, Draco was taught a way of life and certain values. As he grew up he learnt that he like these values and he like the sense of superiority that this way of life gave him. He liked the 'lima beans'. Then he discovered that these values were not universally admired, that when his father and his father's cohorts put these beliefs into action at the Quiddich World Cup, they hid their identities to do so. Did this make Draco stop and pause? It seems not. Did the death of Cedric make him stop and think? It would seem not, even though he had more chance of knowing that Voldemort had returned than anybody else. His father was one of Voldemort's head Death Eaters and I can imagine the meetings that went on in the Manor that first summer. I understand what is Draco's motivation and it abhors me.

My problem is I have seen a lot of behaviour from people like Draco. I understand very well where it comes from and what drives it. I understand and I do not empathise. For me it is very simple, Draco was taught a way of life and certain values. As he grew up he learnt that he like these values and he like the sense of superiority that this way of life gave him. He liked the 'lima beans'. Then he discovered that these values were not universally admired, that when his father and his father's cohorts put these beliefs into action at the Quiddich World Cup, they hid their identities to do so. Did this make Draco stop and pause? It seems not. Did the death of Cedric make him stop and think? It would seem not, even though he had more chance of knowing that Voldemort had returned than anybody else. His father was one of Voldemort's head Death Eaters and I can imagine the meetings that went on in the Manor that first summer. I understand what is Draco's motivation and it abhors me.

I don't belive Draco did ever understand how wrong was his behavior. He never tought that his was acting in a bad way. In the Qudditch World Cup, I think that, not only he didn't think the behavior of his father was wrong, but it made him feel like he was superior. He thought he was above all the other people, because he knew what was happening (maybe not all, but he did knoe the big picture), and he felt really confident, because his father was under one mask, so it was obvious to him that nothing will happen to him. About Cedric's death, I don't even see Draco thinking about it. Draco never did care about anyone's life, but his own, so why would Cedric's death affect him at any way. I don't say it is the right hing to do, I just say that Draco didn't care, at that point about anyboyd. And even when he did care, it was only about his parents, and no one more.

I don't belive Draco did ever understand how wrong was his behavior. He never tought that his was acting in a bad way. In the Qudditch World Cup, I think that, not only he didn't think the behavior of his father was wrong, but it made him feel like he was superior. He thought he was above all the other people, because he knew what was happening (maybe not all, but he did knoe the big picture), and he felt really confident, because his father was under one mask, so it was obvious to him that nothing will happen to him. About Cedric's death, I don't even see Draco thinking about it. Draco never did care about anyone's life, but his own, so why would Cedric's death affect him at any way. I don't say it is the right hing to do, I just say that Draco didn't care, at that point about anyboyd. And even when he did care, it was only about his parents, and no one more.

I really don't think it was that Draco didn't realize what he was doing was wrong because I'm sorry but how could he not have known? I'm positive Draco knew that his father was bad and he did things that most of society would consider horrible. Yes, his parents may have influenced him but when it comes down to it does he really think being on the bad side will pay off in the end? He has the chance to change and he doesn't because as you said, it makes him feel superior and well informed. Only when he is faced with having to murder Dumbledore does he start to realize that supporting Voldmeort isn't going to get him anywhere. As we know, he starts to lower his wand when Dumbledore offers him protection on the tower right before the DEs arrive.

With the Cedric thing I think eliza101 may be trying to say that Draco should care because his father was a part of it. Lucius was at the graveyard and watched Voldmeort torture and attempt to kill Harry. I'm sure that had the DEs been present when Cedric was killed they wouldn't feel any sorrow. And we see that Draco is one of the only people not affected by Cedric's death. No, he didn't know him but Draco was very indifferent if I remember correctly. I believe he even laughs or starts whispering to Crabbe and Goyle during Dumbledore's speech about Cedric. That shows that he knows enjoys all of the bad things that his father does and he values those characteristics as eliza said.

I can't stop thinking about the scene where Dolores Umbridge leads the hearing of the Muggleborn wizards. It's easy to judge Draco, but there are plenty of wizards who simply approve this kind of methods. I mean, Draco's action aren't a particular thing, they reflect convictions of a huuuuge part of the WW. i'm sorry, but is he really the only one to be blamed?

I can't stop thinking about the scene where Dolores Umbridge leads the hearing of the Muggleborn wizards. It's easy to judge Draco, but there are plenty of wizards who simply approve this kind of methods. I mean, Draco's action aren't a particular thing, they reflect convictions of a huuuuge part of the WW. i'm sorry, but is he really the only one to be blamed?

Totally agreed. And no, he's not.

Draco is for sure not the only person that is to be blamed. Umbridge is one of my least favorite characters, especially after DH because of what she does. But as this is the Draco thread I was only pin-pointing everything that Draco has done. He knows his actions are bad, there's no way he couldn't know.

There are none so blind as those who will not see, as the saying goes. And Draco did refuse to see. He chose not to see what was right under his nose from the age of eleven -that Muggleborns were not filthy subhuman beings, that they were boys and girls, just like himself, working in class just like himself, and with personalities of their own, just like himself and his Pureblood family and friends. It was Draco's choice not to see what was in front of his eyes. His upbringing doesn't excuse that - given the choice between what's right and what's easy - Draco took the easy option, to cling to what he'd been told, rather than looking at what he could see with his own eyes.
I don't think that's excusable. I don't think it excuses his delight at the idea of the monster of Slytherin killing his classmates and desire to help with the crimes; his hope that Hermione would be the next, and fatal victim; his taunt about Cedric, Muggle-lovers and Mudbloods dying, or any other actions that were founded in prejudice. It's a reason for his behaviour, yes, but, imo, it doesn't excuse it or make it understandable. It's disturbing that a boy of twelve should relish the idea of classmates being murdered.

I'm going to have to agree with this and add that I think what FurryDice has said it nicely. Think how many wizards turned away from Voldemort when they so easily could have joined him. James, the weasleys, Sirius, the Longbottoms, and (eventually) Regulus are examples. Not every pureblood family has to go bad. Draco has the choice to do what is right. His family loves him more than anything in the world and I'm sure that had Draco decided to change they would have too. That's just my opinion. I just really think everything Draco and his family went through could have been prevented.

I'm going to have to agree with this and add that I think what FurryDice has said it nicely. Think how many wizards turned away from Voldemort when they so easily could have joined him. James, the weasleys, Sirius, the Longbottoms, and (eventually) Regulus are examples. Not every pureblood family has to go bad. Draco has the choice to do what is right. His family loves him more than anything in the world and I'm sure that had Draco decided to change they would have too. That's just my opinion. I just really think everything Draco and his family went through could have been prevented.

I agree that what Draco and his family could have been prevented, but still, it didn't happen, and the 'could' is not helpful...
I belive Draco understood his behavior was bad, and his actions were ugly, but he didn't have any will to change them. He was in his comfort-zone. He got what he wanted, he felt superior, above everybody else, he felt he was in control, he walked in Hogwarts like he was in his home, always with that attitude, like he controled everything around there. So he felt comfort, and didn't want to change it. I don't know if he understood how bad his behavior was, but at some point, I belive he did understand he wasn't acting in a 'good' way.
Of course not every single member of a pure-blood family joined Voldemort and became a DE, and like Regulus, there were some who prefer to die and get out. But Draco is not Regulus, and not Sirius... Draco, I belive, was a bit more shut down to different things, and people who were different from him and his family. He never gave a chance to Muggle-Borns, he always choose to see Dumbledore in a bad way, he always kind of lived in his privet world, with his and his family's ideology, and didn't want to get out, because he felt good inside there.
But obviously his actions had their consequenses. He always wanted to become a DE, and even at the beginning, he was really proud to be one. But then he realised that being a DE is far away from being a school-bully. He understood he wasn't able to commit murder. He became desesperate. He didn't find his way out. He felt trapped. We see him crying in the bathroom. It all came back to him. I know that even when he felt that way, he still tried to kill Dumbledore, and risked severely two innocent lives. But I guess what I'm trying to say, is that Draco was not the 'bad' person we met at the beginning of the books, but like the other characters, his personality was more complex than 'good' or 'bad'. And that's why I try to understand what he went through (and underderstanding it is not, in any way, excusing), instead of labeling him as 'bad', no matter anything.

I can't stop thinking about the scene where Dolores Umbridge leads the hearing of the Muggleborn wizards. It's easy to judge Draco, but there are plenty of wizards who simply approve this kind of methods. I mean, Draco's action aren't a particular thing, they reflect convictions of a huuuuge part of the WW. i'm sorry, but is he really the only one to be blamed?

What we see Umbridge do in DH is something i could see Draco doing, in fact i think Draco would enjoy it as it means he gets to persecute muggleborns (by sending them to Azkaban) but he doesn't actually have to kill them. Its a job i think Draco would enjoy very much.

What we see Umbridge do in DH is something i could see Draco doing, in fact i think Draco would enjoy it as it means he gets to persecute muggleborns (by sending them to Azkaban) but he doesn't actually have to kill them. Its a job i think Draco would enjoy very much.

I disagree. I think Draco it's OK with bad things, as long as he doesn't make them himself. He doesn't care people being killed, as long as he isn't the killer. He doesn't care about practicly anything, as long as he's not involved. He is ok with sending innocent muggle-borns to Azkaban, but I don't belive he would enjoy sending them. It is different not care, and to enjoy. I see Draco as (very) cold and distant, but not completely heartless.

I think Draco it's OK with bad things, as long as he doesn't make them himself. He doesn't care people being killed, as long as he isn't the killer. He doesn't care about practicly anything, as long as he's not involved. He is ok with sending innocent muggle-borns to Azkaban, but I don't belive he would enjoy sending them. It is different not care, and to enjoy. I see Draco as (very) cold and distant, but not completely heartless.

I agree, Draco doesn't seem to care about things that don't affect him directly (eg. Cedric's death) but when Crabbe dies in DH he is shown to care about him. I think Draco is the type of person who stays silent about awful things happening unless they are happening to him.

I don't think Draco understood that Voldemort's actions were 'bad' though, purely because he had grown up with his father forcing his own ideologies on him and Draco accepted these. This meant that in his view, supporting Voldemort was just making his own position in society more secure, which would have been 'good' for him. I see taking sides in the war as sort of similar to who to vote for in an election, all parties want to do what they view as 'good' but their priorities and what they want the country to be like are different. Because Lucius had influenced Draco by saying that pure-bloods are superior, he supported Voldemort because he was getting rid of the muggleborns. It was only when Draco had to kill Dumbledore that he realised that Voldemort wasn't as great as he thought, but even then he probably wasn't going against Voldemort's ideology, just the ways that he was going about getting rid of the opposition and muggleborns IMO.

I think it's possible to criticise Draco for not going against his family's views about pure-blood supremacy in the first place, but I think it would take a strong person (like Sirius) to go against their whole family's ideology because it would be so easy to be influenced by your parents and accept their opinions as truth, and Draco is not portrayed as a particularly strong person - he is a bully and as I said before, doesn't care about things that don't affect him. I think that if Draco had been born into a family that was anti-Voldemort then he would have been on the good side because it just isn't in his character to challenge the ideals of his parents that he was brought up with.

I never said I excuse Draco for his acts. In fact,I've always said I don't. All I'm saying is that I can understand where his acts come from, and I'm trying to understand why he acted the way he did and why was he like that. But understanding it is not the same as excusing. Calling someone a mudblood can be excused? Wishing for "mudbloods" to get killed can be excused? Not caring about anyone but himself can be excused? Not caring about people's lives, and also putting them in risk can be excused? Of course not. I try to see why was he that way, why he acted that way, why he didn't care about anyone, why he didn't see the things that were just under his nose - like prejudycing "mudbloods" without even knowing them...

I'm looking at understanding, too. I can understand that Draco's upbringing influenced him, I can understand that it was the drivel Lucius had told him as he grew up that led to him thinking it was right to wish death on a classmate -that influence is quite plainly shown. However, understanding the reasoning doesn't mean I think his actions are uderstandable, or acceptable. He still had a choice, he still had eyes and ears and a brain.

That's just my opinion. I just really think everything Draco and his family went through could have been prevented.

It could have been prevented, yes. Their unpleasant experiences in HBP and DH were a consequence of their own actions. As well as a taste of the suffering they were willing to inflict on Muggles and Muggleborns (and which Lucius, at least, did inflict on others). If it showed Draco that supporting a racist group isn't a good idea, even if it's just for the sake of his own safety, perhaps he learned something from the experience.

I belive Draco understood his behavior was bad, and his actions were ugly, but he didn't have any will to change them. He was in his comfort-zone. He got what he wanted, he felt superior, above everybody else, he felt he was in control, he walked in Hogwarts like he was in his home, always with that attitude, like he controled everything around there. So he felt comfort, and didn't want to change it. I don't know if he understood how bad his behavior was, but at some point, I belive he did understand he wasn't acting in a 'good' way.

It is for those reasons that I find Draco quite unlikeable. He didn't care that what he was doing was wrong, morally and legally. It was the instant superiority he wanted - he was better than the Muggles and Muggleborns just because. And he accepted that people like Lucius and Voldemort, and one day, himself, would be within their rights to torture and murder people solely for existing. I think this instant superiority was a factor for some of the DEs, and I think Draco fits in this category.

I disagree. I think Draco it's OK with bad things, as long as he doesn't make them himself. He doesn't care people being killed, as long as he isn't the killer. He doesn't care about practicly anything, as long as he's not involved. He is ok with sending innocent muggle-borns to Azkaban, but I don't belive he would enjoy sending them. It is different not care, and to enjoy. I see Draco as (very) cold and distant, but not completely heartless.

Draco has shown that his problem is with looking someone in the eye as he kills them. He had no problem poisoning the firewhisky, knowing that someone would drink it, even if that someone wasn't Dumbledore. I don't know if he would have relished the opportunity to do what Dolores Umbridge did in DH. I think he would have had no problem with it before HBP and his discovery of the less pleasant side of a genicidal madman.


I see taking sides in the war as sort of similar to who to vote for in an election, all parties want to do what they view as 'good' but their priorities and what they want the country to be like are different.

But this situation isn't simply Labour v Conservative or Republican v Democrat. This is "I'm superior and they deserve to be tortured and killed" v "No, you're not and no they don't". An election manifesto generally isn't that extreme. Plus, I don't think many of the DEs were thinking of the good of Magical Britain -it was their own interests they were concerned with -for some the chance to torture and kill without legal consequences; for some, power, for some to keep their skin safe; for some because following this ideology meant they could tell themselves they were superior.

I think it's possible to criticise Draco for not going against his family's views about pure-blood supremacy in the first place, but I think it would take a strong person (like Sirius) to go against their whole family's ideology because it would be so easy to be influenced by your parents and accept their opinions as truth, and Draco is not portrayed as a particularly strong person - he is a bully and as I said before, doesn't care about things that don't affect him. I think that if Draco had been born into a family that was anti-Voldemort then he would have been on the good side because it just isn't in his character to challenge the ideals of his parents that he was brought up with.

I see Draco as a person who goes with the flow. He doesn't really have his own opinions, he has his parents' opinions. And as you said, I also believe that if Draco was raised in an anti-Voldemort family, he would be against Voldemort. I see in him a very weak personality. He doesn't get involved in anything, he shows not to care about any awful thing, he doesn't even confront his own problems, because he calls his daddy to fix them for him. He knows not how to be an independent person, as he needs his 'bodyguards' to care for him in Hogwarts, his father to fix the situation whenever he's in trouble, and the sense of power just to feel he's worth something.
In my opinion, he's behavior is understandable. Although it is not written in the books, I can see Narcissa spoiling him, giving him whatever he wants. He always had the attention of his parents, so he never had the opportunity to deal with anything by himself. And also this attention from his parents made him think he's the centre of the world, and his wishes come first.

I absolutely don't see Draco standing up against his parents. I don't see him standing up for what he belives (or not, no matter the situation) without knowing that if he does so, he'll still be in a "secure" place. Everything he does, he looks for his sake, and his parents' sake. The other people mean nothing to him.

I don't excuse any of this behaviors - I try to understand where they come from...

Malfoy's character is one of the most developed of the non-main characters. He is important withis the series and is a mysterious individual.
Was it nature or nuture? I believe he was by nature, a good person, possibly spoiled and not the nicest kid, but not a destined Death Eater. His choices were in fear of his father, Voldemort, and his constant search for approval. He did not have to follow in anyone's footsteps, and it was ultimatley his lack of willpower (the thing that seperates his from the "good guys") that brought him to his behaivior.

Malfoy's character is one of the most developed of the non-main characters. He is important withis the series and is a mysterious individual.
Was it nature or nuture? I believe he was by nature, a good person, possibly spoiled and not the nicest kid, but not a destined Death Eater. His choices were in fear of his father, Voldemort, and his constant search for approval. He did not have to follow in anyone's footsteps, and it was ultimatley his lack of willpower (the thing that seperates his from the "good guys") that brought him to his behaivior.


The main reason I do have empathy for Draco, and not for his actions, but the reason he made them, is that I believe he is not a bad guy. He's not a good one either, but still not bad. As Sirius once said to Harry: "The world is not divided between good people and Death Eaters". So for me, Draco was not a good person, but still it didn't make him a DE.
He was bad, and absolutely not nice. He was mean, and selfish and snobbish, but I don't see evil in him, like I see in Bellatrix.
I agree he didn't have to follow his father's steps. But still, that was the only thing he knew, he admired Lucius, so it is not that he hand't the willpower to stand up against him, he never wanted to stand up against him from the first place.

pd. I don't excuse his behaviors.

I don't think Draco is a completely bad guy. He just seems to be one of those annoying "I'm better than you are" type of guys. Of course, he did become a Death Eater and we can agree those guys aren't good.

I was surprised by how Draco seemed to care about his friends in the RoR. He was upset when Crabbe didn't make it. This after Crabbe told him that he and his dad were finished. When running away from the fire, we read that Crabbe is running full pelt while Draco is dragging Goyle along as well. I dunno but its not something I associated with people who supported Voldemort.

I don't think Draco was ever an evil person doing evil things for the malicious satisfaction of being evil (that's Voldemort and Bellatrix). Like his father, Draco was conditioned by his wealth and bloodline to feel socially superior and to befriend anyone who could further his status and hold on power (such as joining the DEs like Lucius did) or were lackeys to prop up his status and power (such as Crabbe and Goyle). He initially tried to "befriend" (read: use) Harry because Harry Potter was famous. When Harry scorned the offer Draco's ego had to make Harry his enemy.

Draco's personality revolved around his ego and he denigrated anything or anyone that challenged his privileged place at the top. Such choices definitely are not virtuous. But they don't make him irredeemably evil either. Only a selfish soul of diminished compassion and empathy. I always held out hope that before the end something would happen to awaken in him a decency which I was sure was more latent than absent. If he truly had a cold dark-magic-loving heart he could have AK'ed Dumbledore, ZAP, no problem. As with Anakin, I always believed that there was some good in him.

I was surprised by how Draco seemed to care about his friends in the RoR. He was upset when Crabbe didn't make it. This after Crabbe told him that he and his dad were finished. When running away from the fire, we read that Crabbe is running full pelt while Draco is dragging Goyle along as well. I dunno but its not something I associated with people who supported Voldemort.

I don't think it's that surprising, personally. The only character who doesn't care for anybody is Voldemort, and he's pretty much a sociopath. Lucius has no problem attempting to murder other peoples' children in CoS, but worried for his own child's life. Bella has no problem torturing people to insanity and handing Draco over to Voldemort as a tool, but she keeps quiet about Narcissa's illicit visit to Spinner's End. Even the DEs care about somebody, but I don't think caring about one or two people and harming others makes one a good person. Having said that, I don't think Draco was anywhere near as bad as Bellatrix, or even Lucius.

I don't think Draco was ever an evil person doing evil things for the malicious satisfaction of being evil (that's Voldemort and Bellatrix). Like his father, Draco was conditioned by his wealth and bloodline to feel socially superior and to befriend anyone who could further his status and hold on power (such as joining the DEs like Lucius did) or were lackeys to prop up his status and power (such as Crabbe and Goyle). He initially tried to "befriend" (read: use) Harry because Harry Potter was famous. When Harry scorned the offer Draco's ego had to make Harry his enemy.

I think it's quite sad that an eleven year old should view friends as either lackeys to be of use, or high profile enough to make him look important by association.

Draco's personality revolved around his ego and he denigrated anything or anyone that challenged his privileged place at the top. Such choices definitely are not virtuous. But they don't make him irredeemably evil either. Only a selfish soul of diminished compassion and empathy. I always held out hope that before the end something would happen to awaken in him a decency which I was sure was more latent than absent.

However, placing one's own self-importance and imagined superiority above a moral idea of right and wrong is very disturbing.

I never saw Draco as evil, and I am surprised that other people think he is. To me, draco is a bully. He is a snob, and definately wanting approval from his farther. that he should care for Crabbe after coming out of the ROR, showed to me that he really was a decent sort. Umbridge was evil, the Carrows too. Not Draco, IMO.

I never saw Draco as evil, and I am surprised that other people think he is. To me, draco is a bully. He is a snob, and definately wanting approval from his farther. that he should care for Crabbe after coming out of the ROR, showed to me that he really was a decent sort. Umbridge was evil, the Carrows too. Not Draco, IMO.

I can see that; a bully and not purely evil. To add to that, he was unable to kill Dumbledore. DD was unarmed and defenseless: an evil person would carry out the deed. And the only reason he agreed to take the mission (iirc, I don't have the book now) was because Vodemort threatened his family. He was scared and alone, and I don't think he saw another option. Poor guy...

Had he been the same person, but in a different family, I don't think he would've been a DE at all. He was just a dog-like person; aiming to please his family.

Actually Draco's situation is somehow sad, because all his self steem is valued through how high in society he is able to reach, and that must be hard as social status is always an unsure thing and difficult to mantain. He must have been an unsure person deep inside, probably that made him be such a bully.

Since I've just finished re-reading DH, I think I'll go through these again and see if my answers are the same as the previous ones.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

Maybe a bit. But, she is so good at misdirection, she could have turned him into a hero before the ending of the series. I think the Draco character had several purposes:


To set up an antagonist the same age as Harry; someone he was in contact with on a day-to-day basis, unlike Voldemort who only came in contact with him once in a while.

To provide a parallel with James Potter, showing that no one is perfect, but, as Dumbledore pointed out, it is the choices we make that determine who or what we are. I think JKR used the two characters to show how, even though James was also spoiled and pampered, he chose to do good where Draco chose the opposite path.

To provide more drama to Severus Snape's being "forced" to kill Dumbledore. Even if he hadn't agreed because of the curse from the ring, adding Draco's dilemna on top of that certainly helped Severus make up his mind.


2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.

This is true, and, IMO, is part of what drove Draco to become a Death Eater. I don't think that Draco was evil, but he was selfish and self-serving, even after Harry saved his life.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

He made his choices based on the way he was raised and what he thought was expected of him. I think his choice started out as bravado, then turned to fear...then to absolute terror for himself and his family.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.

Harry had lived a pretty confined life until he went to Hogwarts. Names didn't mean anything to him. He was not impressed by money or fame because he'd never been exposed to the "importance" of those things.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?

I think Draco, like his father, has a mean streak. I don't think he's misunderstood. What you see is pretty much what you get with him...a spoiled, nasty little brat who tries to pick up where his father left off when Lucius goes to jail. I don't think he totally undstood what Lucius' life was all about. He only saw the power and wealth, not much of the "down and dirty" part. So, IMO, he thought it was a lark. Then he got into it and was way over his head before he realized it.

I do feel there is a difference in being "mean" and being evil. IMO, Lucius was evil. He wouldn't have given a second thought to AK-ing Dumbledore. Draco, on the other hand, couldn't bring himself to do it. I think that's where the difference lies.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?

I think he regretted it only because it made him look weak. I think he was relieved that he didn't have to do it. I don't think he really wanted to. Maybe, after having a while to think it over he regretted his choices in DH, but, at the time, I think most of them were made because he had self-preservation and the safety of his parents in mind.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.

I doubt that he would have given it much thought unless something specific came up to remind him. I would venture a guess that, in the back of his mind, he probably thought he got himself out of danger and Harry and Ron just happened to be there.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?

Like his father, he was independently wealthy and didn't need a profession. I see him carrying on pretty much the same way Lucius did, trading in questionable artifacts and being pretty much a swaggering pain in the rear.

If Pansy Parkinson was a pure-blood of social status enough to marry Draco, it might have been her. If not, it would have been someone who met those qualifications. I don't see Draco as marrying "for love."

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

Maybe a bit. But, she is so good at misdirection, she could have turned him into a hero before the ending of the series. I think the Draco character had several purposes:


To set up an antagonist the same age as Harry; someone he was in contact with on a day-to-day basis, unlike Voldemort who only came in contact with him once in a while.

To provide a parallel with James Potter, showing that no one is perfect, but, as Dumbledore pointed out, it is the choices we make that determine who or what we are. I think JKR used the two characters to show how, even though James was also spoiled and pampered, he chose to do good where Draco chose the opposite path.

To provide more drama to Severus Snape's being "forced" to kill Dumbledore. Even if he hadn't agreed because of the curse from the ring, adding Draco's dilemna on top of that certainly helped Severus make up his mind.




"

I think Draco appeared first as a rival and oponent or "foe" for Harry, just to be annoying and to make a difference between him and Harry.

And also from the first book we learn that he serves as a paralelism between Snape. I mean James-Snape, Harry-Draco.

Later the rest of the characters develop and acts as an adult very similar to what he acted as a child, but with major consecuences.


About Pansy, I believe JKR said that the wife we see in the platform was Astoria Greengrass. I have always felt like, despite having good status, Pansy was not "ellegant" or "chic" enough for Malfoy. Just my impressio, of course.

I never saw Draco as evil, and I am surprised that other people think he is. To me, draco is a bully. He is a snob, and definately wanting approval from his farther. that he should care for Crabbe after coming out of the ROR, showed to me that he really was a decent sort. Umbridge was evil, the Carrows too. Not Draco, IMO.

I don't think Draco is evil. However, I don't think he's a good person, either.

I think Draco, like his father, has a mean streak. I don't think he's misunderstood. What you see is pretty much what you get with him...a spoiled, nasty little brat who tries to pick up where his father left off when Lucius goes to jail. I don't think he totally undstood what Lucius' life was all about. He only saw the power and wealth, not much of the "down and dirty" part. So, IMO, he thought it was a lark. Then he got into it and was way over his head before he realized it.

I agree, Draco was an unpleasant character. Perhaps he was kidding himself about the reality of life as a DE. However, up until it was actually staring him in the face, he didn't seem to grasp that murder and torture are wrong. This is the same boy who hoped for classmates to be murdered. I find that a disturbing level of nastiness and self-delusion.

Like his father, he was independently wealthy and didn't need a profession. I see him carrying on pretty much the same way Lucius did, trading in questionable artifacts and being pretty much a swaggering pain in the rear.

I tend to think Draco might have been wary of getting involved in dodgy Dark artifacts. Not because of any moral concerns, I think, but because he would have known he was lucky not to be in Azkaban. He may have suspected that the Ministry was keeping a close watch on his family, as DEs who had wormed their way out of trouble. (In much the same way as the police keep an eye on known criminal gang members who get off on technicalities)

I think Draco appeared first as a rival and oponent or "foe" for Harry, just to be annoying and to make a difference between him and Harry.

And also from the first book we learn that he serves as a paralelism between Snape. I mean James-Snape, Harry-Draco.

I can see the parallel, yeah. Two young men who always opposed Voldemort and what he stood for; two young men who supported Voldemort until doing so hurt them badly.

About Pansy, I believe JKR said that the wife we see in the platform was Astoria Greengrass. I have always felt like, despite having good status, Pansy was not "ellegant" or "chic" enough for Malfoy. Just my impressio, of course.

I would agree. I don't think Draco would have wanted a spouse as tactless and clingy as Pansy. After everything that had happened, he would probably have wanted someone with a bit more restraint and dignity, as the family name had been tarnished enough by their involvement with Voldemort.

That raises the question, why would Astoria marry Draco? Knowing that he had been involved in Voldemort's campaign, that he was probably lucky to avoid Azkaban, that marrying him would forever associate her with a family of known DEs? Even if her family had quietly supported Voldemort's actions, there's no mention of any Greengrass DEs, and I would imagine even silent supporters would be reluctant to link their names to someone with that tarnished reputation. It suggests to me that theirs was a marriage of love, rather than of convenience.

I found a small part of OotP which would certainly suggest that Draco Malfoy isn't one of the top students.

"Professor Tofty is free, Potter," squeaked Professor Flitwick, who was standing just inside the door. He pointed Harry towards what looked like the very oldest and baldest examiner who was sitting behind a small table in a far corner, a short distance from Professor Marchbanks, who was halfway through testing Draco Malfoy.

"Potter, is it?" said Professor Tofty, consulting his notes and peering over his pince-nez at Harry as he approached. "The famous Potter?"

Out of the corner of his eye, Harry distinctly saw Malfoy throw a scathing look over at him; the wine-glass Malfoy had been levitating fell to the floor and smashed. Harry could not suppress a grin; Professor Tofty smiled back at him encouragingly.

"That's it," he said in his quavery old voice, "no need to be nervous. Now, if I could ask you to take this egg cup and make it do some cartwheels for me."

On the whole, Harry thought it went rather well. His Levitation Charm was certainly much better than Malfoy's had been, though he wished he had not mixed up the incantations for Color Change and Growth Charms, so that the rat he was supposed to be turning orange swelled shockingly and was the size of a badger before Harry could rectify his mistake. He was glad Hermione had not been in the Hall at the time and neglected to mention it to her afterwards.


This is one of the only times i can remember a direct comparison between Harry and Draco so at least in charms Harry and Ron (who got around the same marks as Harry in charms) are better than Draco Malfoy.

Hmmm....I think there's more than one meaning to that passage. I can see both sides: On one hand, a levitation charm is a first-year spell and Draco should have it down. On the other hand, though, he was distracted by Harry, and Tofty's words seemed to spark the jealously Draco seems to feel toward Harry. So his spellwork and concentration could have been affected by his emotions.

Hmmm....I think there's more than one meaning to that passage. I can see both sides: On one hand, a levitation charm is a first-year spell and Draco should have it down. On the other hand, though, he was distracted by Harry, and Tofty's words seemed to spark the jealously Draco seems to feel toward Harry. So his spellwork and concentration could have been affected by his emotions.

Ron's successfully did a levitation charm back in 1st year when the trio were being attacked by a troll.

From reading that quote it seems to me that Draco's Levitation Charm was indeed successful until he is distracted. I also agree with Iggy that Tofty's words not only distracted Draco, but made him angry and jealous which probably affected his Levitation Charm, as we know strong emotions affect magic being performed.

Ron's successfully did a levitation charm back in 1st year when the trio were being attacked by a troll.

I'm sure Malfoy has done the levitation charm correctly plenty of times.
He messed up in the exam because he lost concentration.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?
I think JKR did definitely plant the seeds of his lineage and it was almost predetermined that he would grow up to become a Death Eater. However it is important to remember that had he grown up in an entirely different family, he could have been one of Voldemort's staunchest opponents. I think that Draco was so heavily influenced by his surroundings and he actually had a decent nature at his core, he showed it when he was so torn up by what he had to do to Dumbledore, he never wanted to be a murderer but his hand was forced. I found the whole thing quite heartbreaking really and would like to think that he grew up having learnt that it wasn't what he was supposed to be.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?
I think in the earlier books when his actions were petty teenage rebellions and bullying, it was all Draco. He might not have been the nicest kid but as I said earlier, when he was forced into acting as a Death Eater and carrying out Voldemort's orders his heart certainly wasn't in it.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?
I think that by the time Deathly Hallows rolled around he had simply gotten in too deep. He had no other choice than to try to please Voldemort to keep his family safe. Crabbe & Goyle were in it for the violence and mayhem but Draco was just a scared little boy in the end who couldn't see a way out.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?

I know that JKR said Pansy is most definitely not the wife we see in the epilogue, but I'd really like to think he realised the error of his ways. I'm not saying he went into Muggle liasons as a career but he might have kept his nose cleaner than Lucius did, definitely. I think an interesting question would be how his family was received by the greater Wizarding population and whether they would have sought vengeance against them for the crimes they committed under Voldemort's reign, or whether they let them be, so to speak.



I think it's possible to criticise Draco for not going against his family's views about pure-blood supremacy in the first place, but I think it would take a strong person (like Sirius) to go against their whole family's ideology because it would be so easy to be influenced by your parents and accept their opinions as truth, and Draco is not portrayed as a particularly strong person - he is a bully and as I said before, doesn't care about things that don't affect him. I think that if Draco had been born into a family that was anti-Voldemort then he would have been on the good side because it just isn't in his character to challenge the ideals of his parents that he was brought up with.

I completely agree with you, I think that he was a product of the environment in which he grew up. He showed so many times throughout the books that he wanted to be the 'big bad' but so much of it was just bravado and not really who he was at the core. Wow, I didn't realise what a Draco sympathiser I was until I started typing!

Does anyone know how Draco managed to avoid a very long stay at Azkaban after the final battle at Hogwarts. Here are the crimes he commited and they are serious

- 2 counts of attempted murder
- Use of a unforgivable curse
- Aiding and Abetting (helping the death eaters kill dumbledore and let them into Hogwarts
- Sedition (as he almost certainly knew about the plot to overthrow the government)
- Treason

Does anyone know how Draco managed to avoid a very long stay at Azkaban after the final battle at Hogwarts. Here are the crimes he commited and they are serious

- 2 counts of attempted murder
- Use of a unforgivable curse
- Aiding and Abetting (helping the death eaters kill dumbledore and let them into Hogwarts
- Sedition (as he almost certainly knew about the plot to overthrow the government)
- Treason

I would guess that Harry vouched for his being on the good side in the end.

I would guess that Harry vouched for his being on the good side in the end.

Except he never really was as the last we saw of Draco in the final battle he was begging death eaters not to kill him saying he was on their side.

Except he never really was as the last we saw of Draco in the final battle he was begging death eaters not to kill him saying he was on their side.

I don't think that means he was really with the Death Eaters, just trying to do what he could not to be killed. In the battle of Hogwarts, we never see Draco attack a single person. I think if he were really on Voldemort's side, we would have seen him do something bad, but there was nothing. All we see of Draco through DH is reluctance to identify the trio in Malfoy Manor, reluctance to capture Harry in the Room of Requirement, and him begging for his life so he won't be killed. None of that says Death Eater to me. It is my opinion that even if Draco was not firmly on the good side, he had certainly turned against the Death Eaters.

I don't think that means he was really with the Death Eaters, just trying to do what he could not to be killed. In the battle of Hogwarts, we never see Draco attack a single person. I think if he were really on Voldemort's side, we would have seen him do something bad, but there was nothing. All we see of Draco through DH is reluctance to identify the trio in Malfoy Manor, reluctance to capture Harry in the Room of Requirement, and him begging for his life so he won't be killed. None of that says Death Eater to me. It is my opinion that even if Draco was not firmly on the good side, he had certainly turned against the Death Eaters.

However remember this scene


Draco Malfoy: "STOP! The Dark Lord wants him alive —"
Vincent Crabbe: "So? I’m not killing him, am I? But if I can, I will, the Dark Lord wants him dead anyway, what’s the diff — ? It’s that Mudblood! Avada Kedavra!"

It sounds like capturing Harry was to Malfoy his last chance for Voldemort to forgive his family. If Draco didn't want to capture Harry and take him to Voldemort then he wouldn't have ambushed them.

However remember this scene



It sounds like capturing Harry was to Malfoy his last chance for Voldemort to forgive his family. If Draco didn't want to capture Harry and take him to Voldemort then he wouldn't have ambushed them.

That's not how I interpreted that scene. It seemed to me that Draco was trying to find any excuse to get Crabbe and Goyle's attention off Harry. That's why he kept bringing up the diadem (which would have been nowhere near as helpful as just capturing Harry). I honestly think he would have let Harry just leave if Crabbe and Goyle hadn't been there.

That's not how I interpreted that scene. It seemed to me that Draco was trying to find any excuse to get Crabbe and Goyle's attention off Harry. That's why he kept bringing up the diadem (which would have been nowhere near as helpful as just capturing Harry). I honestly think he would have let Harry just leave if Crabbe and Goyle hadn't been there.

Why was he there in the first place though?

To me Draco was a racist at the begining of the books and a racist at the end of the books the only difference is that in the begining of the books and the end is at the begining the Malfoy's had a lot of power and influence but at the end the Malfoy's were essentially the janitors of Death Eaters and had Voldemort won the war the Malfoy's would have had no power and no influence. That is the only reason why Draco didn't support Voldemort in the last two books and not because he suddenly had a change of heart about his racist beliefs.

Why was he there in the first place though?

To me Draco was a racist at the begining of the books and a racist at the end of the books the only difference is that in the begining of the books and the end is at the begining the Malfoy's had a lot of power and influence but at the end the Malfoy's were essentially the janitors of Death Eaters and had Voldemort won the war the Malfoy's would have had no power and no influence. That is the only reason why Draco didn't support Voldemort in the last two books and not because he suddenly had a change of heart about his racist beliefs.

Maybe he was there to be safe during the battle in which people were being killed left and right. He is a Slytherin after all. He said he pratically lived in the Room of Requirement so it makes sense that he goes there to hide.

I think Draco turned against the Death Eaters because he saw that being a Death Eater meant living in a world where no person was of value except the one person in control. And who's to say Draco didn't have a change of heart? Other characters who were just like Draco changed after their loved ones were threatened or lost. Snape changed because of Lily, Dumbledore changed because of Ariana, Regulus changed because of a House Elf. Why can't Draco change because of his parents?

I think Draco turned against the Death Eaters because he saw that being a Death Eater meant living in a world where no person was of value except the one person in control. And who's to say Draco didn't have a change of heart? Other characters who were just like Draco changed after their loved ones were threatened or lost. Snape changed because of Lily, Dumbledore changed because of Ariana, Regulus changed because of a House Elf. Why can't Draco change because of his parents?

Do you have any evidence what so ever in the books to suggest that Draco even considered changing his racist views?

Remember in the 6th book Draco could have gone to Dumbledore and explained the situation but instead he decided to continue his cowardly assassination attempts and nearly killed 2 students in the process.

Do you have any evidence what so ever in the books to suggest that Draco even considered changing his racist views?

No.


Remember in the 6th book Draco could have gone to Dumbledore and explained the situation but instead he decided to continue his cowardly assassination attempts and nearly killed 2 students in the process.

Well he thought Dumbledore couldn't help him, so of course he tried to go on with his mission. But I don't see why that's cowardly, since a coward is one who hides from danger. What's cowardly about attempting to kill the greatest wizard in existence? Nothing. In fact, attempting to kill Dumbledore is one of the few instances I can think of when Draco isn't a coward. He's not a coward just because he does something we don't like, unless the meaning of the word has changed.

Well he thought Dumbledore couldn't help him, so of course he tried to go on with his mission. But I don't see why that's cowardly, since a coward is one who hides from danger. What's cowardly about attempting to kill the greatest wizard in existence? Nothing. In fact, attempting to kill Dumbledore is one of the few instances I can think of when Draco isn't a coward. He's not a coward just because he does something we don't like, unless the meaning of the word has changed.

They were cowardly attempts because each attempt was one where he didn't have to be near Dumbledore when he killed him. He was trying to kill Dumbledore from afar so he would be safe (because killing Dumbledore while he is face to face with him would be dangerous).

They were cowardly attempts because each attempt was one where he didn't have to be near Dumbledore when he killed him. He was trying to kill Dumbledore from afar so he would be safe (because killing Dumbledore while he is face to face with him would be dangerous).

I guess that makes sense.

:hmm: I actually think of it differently. I agree with Dumbledore's assessment that Draco's indirect attempts on his life reflect Draco's desire not to kill, and I don't see anything cowardly about not wanting to kill someone, especially under the circumstances in which Dumbledore did die. Killing Dumbledore in cold blood when he is unarmed and not posing any threat at all seems like one of the least brave things I can think of.

I believe that the scene between Draco and Dumbledore on the Astronomy tower is meant to convey to us that Draco is not avoiding killing to save himself (in fact, killing a disarmed DD would in theory ensure his safety, since Voldemort is threatening all three Malfoys' lives), but that he is actually just a naïve, spoiled kid who is not prepared to murder someone.

:hmm: I actually think of it differently. I agree with Dumbledore's assessment that Draco's indirect attempts on his life reflect Draco's desire not to kill, and I don't see anything cowardly about not wanting to kill someone, especially under the circumstances in which Dumbledore did die. Killing Dumbledore in cold blood when he is unarmed and not posing any threat at all seems like one of the least brave things I can think of.


Draco has shown many times that he prefers to attack when his opponent is not expecting it. He attacked Harry in CoS before Lockhart finished the count down and he also tried to attack Harry when Harry's back was turned in GoF.

I also don't think Draco had a problem with someone killing Dumbledore as long as it wasn't him. He never seemed to mind the fact that Death Eaters were killing people as long as he didn't have to kill them. I could see him being very happy working with Umbridge in Deathly Hallows as he gets to discriminate against muggleborns by sending them to Azkaban but he doesn't have to physically kill them.

However remember this scene

Draco Malfoy: "STOP! The Dark Lord wants him alive —"
Vincent Crabbe: "So? I’m not killing him, am I? But if I can, I will, the Dark Lord wants him dead anyway, what’s the diff — ? It’s that Mudblood! Avada Kedavra!"

It sounds like capturing Harry was to Malfoy his last chance for Voldemort to forgive his family. If Draco didn't want to capture Harry and take him to Voldemort then he wouldn't have ambushed them.

If Malfoy was intent on capturing Harry, then why would he try to stop Crabbe from using Crucio on him?

'What's going on - no, Potter! Crucio! Harry had lunged for the tiara; Crabbe's curse missed him but hit the stone bust, which flew into the air; the diadem soared upwards and then dropped out of sight in the mass of objects on which the bust had rested.
'STOP!' Malfoy shouted at Crabbe, his voice echoing through the enormous room. 'The Dark Lord wants him alive -'
'So, I'm not killing him, am I?' yelled Crabbe, throwing off Malfoy's restraining arm, 'but if I can, I will, the Dark Lord wants him dead anyway, what's the diff-?'(DH,The Battle of Hogwarts)


Crabbe does say earlier on that they were planning to capture Harry, which I am sure was the intention of Crabbe and Goyle. However, I am not sure going from his behaviour that Draco was committed to this. Interestingly, it is Crabbe who does most of the talking for the three of them, and not Draco.


That's not how I interpreted that scene. It seemed to me that Draco was trying to find any excuse to get Crabbe and Goyle's attention off Harry. That's why he kept bringing up the diadem (which would have been nowhere near as helpful as just capturing Harry). I honestly think he would have let Harry just leave if Crabbe and Goyle hadn't been there.

I agree, afterall Draco had a chance to hand Harry in at Malfoy Manor, but he chose not to identify him.

I agree that he would have left Harry alone - I feel like he wouldn't have had the nerve by that point to get into a battle with Harry (let alone flanked by Ron & Hermione). I think him showing up at the Room of Requirements was partly pushed by Crabbe & Goyle who were trying to get noticed by Voldemort and partly as an act of desperation - he would have known the perilous situation his family was in and if he could find the Horcrux (not necessarily knowing what it was, other than that it was important to Voldemort), it could have bought them some extra time and perhaps a bit of leniency. He probably wanted to snatch it and run.

I find Draco's behavior in the RR very interesting. Some of the dialogue and actions are very similar to what Snape says at the end of HBP. He was also not really trying to hurt or capture Harry. I don't think Draco was either. I think he was trying to avoid it. Perhaps he went in there with that intent and then when faced with the reality of it he couldn't go along with it.

If Malfoy was intent on capturing Harry, then why would he try to stop Crabbe from using Crucio on him?
Exactly. Didn't Voldemort force Draco to use Crucio on someone? I like to think that, after finally having to use it, he realized this wasn't him. He wasn't a Death Eater. He couldn't bring himself to kill, even when it would have been easy with Dumbledore disarmed, and I don't think he enjoyed torturing people.


I agree, afterall Draco had a chance to hand Harry in at Malfoy Manor, but he chose not to identify him.
And nothing bad would have happened to him had he turned them in, so it's not like he was acting out of self-interest here, which I particularly liked. I think the real possibility of his classmates being killed was too much for him, no matter how much he disliked them.

Draco wasn't ever a very nice or good person, but I don't think hew as evil.

I don't think that means he was really with the Death Eaters, just trying to do what he could not to be killed.

I see Draco's insistence that he was on their side as being rather similar to the Trio lying to the Snatchers. They certainly weren't on the same side as the Snatchers, but nor were they going to spill the truth and be killed. I think the same might apply to Draco, here.
Draco wasn't doing anything to help the DEs in the battle, if they were attacking him, and he might well have been trying to find some place he could stay in safety now that the RoR had been destroyed.

Why was he there in the first place though?
To me Draco was a racist at the begining of the books and a racist at the end of the books the only difference is that in the begining of the books and the end is at the begining the Malfoy's had a lot of power and influence but at the end the Malfoy's were essentially the janitors of Death Eaters and had Voldemort won the war the Malfoy's would have had no power and no influence. That is the only reason why Draco didn't support Voldemort in the last two books and not because he suddenly had a change of heart about his racist beliefs.

I agree that there's nothing to suggest Draco changed his racist views. I also agree that he and his family only turned against Voldemort because they were no longer in a position of privilege within the DEs. There's no evidence that it was because they saw anything wrong with it. However, I think his experiences over those two years forced Draco to grow up somewhat. I think they would have marked a learning curve for him. So, even if he never changed his views, I doubt he'd want to get involved in persecuting Muggleborns again. He'd have seen that such prejudiced organisations aren't the glorious pureblood bastions he believed they were. Also, Dudley's experience with the Dementors was enough to bring about some small change in him. Perhaps Voldemort and the DEs had the same effect on Draco?

:hmm: I actually think of it differently. I agree with Dumbledore's assessment that Draco's indirect attempts on his life reflect Draco's desire not to kill, and I don't see anything cowardly about not wanting to kill someone, especially under the circumstances in which Dumbledore did die. Killing Dumbledore in cold blood when he is unarmed and not posing any threat at all seems like one of the least brave things I can think of.

Those attempts weren't very strong, and weren't likely to ever get to Dumbledore. However, someone was going to drink the Firewhisky, someone was going to touch the necklace. Both times, it was pure chance that nobody was killed. Katie would have died, if she had touched any more of the necklace than she did. Ron would have died if there hadn't been a bezoar in Slughorn's quarters. Ron, as well as Harry and Slughorn would have died, if they'd all drank the toast at the same time, as is usually done. Draco had to know that these things would very likely kill somebody, even if not the target he was supposed to be attacking.

I believe that the scene between Draco and Dumbledore on the Astronomy tower is meant to convey to us that Draco is not avoiding killing to save himself (in fact, killing a disarmed DD would in theory ensure his safety, since Voldemort is threatening all three Malfoys' lives), but that he is actually just a naïve, spoiled kid who is not prepared to murder someone.

He's not prepared to murder someone face-to-face, looking them in the eye. That makes him a better person than the rest of the DEs, but the firewhisky and the necklace show that he is willing to cause the deaths of others. I can see that he was desperate, that he wanted to be seen to do something, for the sake of himself and his family. However, those actions show that he could kill, just not face-to-face.

Exactly. Didn't Voldemort force Draco to use Crucio on someone? I like to think that, after finally having to use it, he realized this wasn't him. He wasn't a Death Eater. He couldn't bring himself to kill, even when it would have been easy with Dumbledore disarmed, and I don't think he enjoyed torturing people.

And nothing bad would have happened to him had he turned them in, so it's not like he was acting out of self-interest here, which I particularly liked. I think the real possibility of his classmates being killed was too much for him, no matter how much he disliked them.

Iagree. I think maybe he came to see this after two years of seeing what being a DE really meant. This is the same Draco who relished the idea of Hermione being killed by the monster of Slytherin, and the idea of Harry and his friends being killed after Voldemort's return. I think that being forced to be a part of this, seeing what it was like first-hand, was one massive wake-up call for Draco.

Draco wasn't ever a very nice or good person, but I don't think hew as evil.

That's pretty much how I see Draco. He's not a good person, but neither is he evil, like Voldemort, or Bella, or even Lucius (who I think is evil, just to a much lesser extent than Bella)

When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

I think she probably did, particularly when he shows a lack of sympathy towards Harry's parents being dead and most especially when he says 'But they were our kind weren't they?'

Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.

I think this is where Draco's pompousness and arrogance comes from.

Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

I definately think his choices came from bravado at first and then fear when he realised what his tasks would entail. Draco was spiteful in an ingnorant, bullying way but he wasn't evil to the core and I think he would have only tried to kill Dumbledore out of fear of Voldemort not because he wanted to. I think Draco's fear is his redeeming trait in HBP.

Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?

Plain mean. He genuinely believes all the derogatory remarks he makes to people throughout the series and he genuinely feels superior to almost everyone else. This isn't all his fault though, it was the way he was brought up, and I think he would have been more mellow in later life and tried to bring Scorpius up a little differently.

Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?

I think he's relieved that he didn't kill Dumbledore - I don't think he really wanted to do it in the first place. He definately has regrets in DH, you can tell by the way he keeps looking at Professor Burbage when she is suspended in the air at the Manor and how he won't give a straight answer when asked if the person with the swollen face is Harry when he probably knows it is. He knows the actions of the Death Eaters are wrong.

How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.

I think he would have just had a polite respect for them and been civil with them as he was in the epilogue.

What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?

Well, we know now that his wife is Astoria Greengrass. But I don't think he ever would have considered marrying Pansy. She's too immature and irritating. I think he might have taken on a job with the Ministry but I don't know which Department.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

No. Being a bully does not equate to following evil practices.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.

That's true. I believe that's why Draco turned ou the way he did. Most of us have been somewhat shaped by our upbringing, and may hold the values (or lack thereof) that our parents have instilled in us.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

Fear. Draco was afraid to kill Dumbledore. We see his guilt and horror at what he's done to Katie Bell when he runs to the bathroom to cry. I think deep down, Draco has values.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.

Draco isn't that different than alot of people, who believe their worth is based on relations or wealth or social status.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?

Misunderstood,

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill
Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?

No, I believe he was relieved that he didn't have to kill Dumbledore. We see in Malfoy Manor, when the trio is brought to him for recognition purposes, he pretends he doesn't recognize them. He had a big opportunity to aid in bringing Harry to Voldemort, but he didn't take it.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.

Respect. I doubt he'd ever befriend them, but I think he'd have respect for them.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?

Well, I've heard that it isn't Pansy, it's Astoria. He'd make a good potions master, but I doubt he'd be good with kids.

I am reading the last few chapters of HBP at the moment and even though Draco hates the Weasley's and Hermione as he believes them to be inferior he is perfectly willing to use their idea's to benefit himself.

- He used Hermione's communication idea
- He used Hermione's poisoning idea
- He used Fred and George's product to get past Ron, Ginny and Neville

Being a WW2 buff it kind of reminds me off the Japanese who thought all races were inferior to their own and yet they modeled their entire defence force on the British defence forces. Why would anyone copy someone else if they believed that that person was inferior to themselves.

I am reading the last few chapters of HBP at the moment and even though Draco hates the Weasley's and Hermione as he believes them to be inferior he is perfectly willing to use their idea's to benefit himself.

- He used Hermione's communication idea
- He used Hermione's poisoning idea
- He used Fred and George's product to get past Ron, Ginny and Neville

Being a WW2 buff it kind of reminds me off the Japanese who thought all races were inferior to their own and yet they modeled their entire defence force on the British defence forces. Why would anyone copy someone else if they believed that that person was inferior to themselves.

I don't think Draco's use of Fred and George's products is particularly noteworthy, because my impression is that all Hogwarts students were using them right and left (to the point where there was a school-wide ban on WWW products). As for the poisoning idea being Hermione's, I'm a little rusty but I don't recall the idea being hers (unfortunately I don't have the book right here, but if you tell me where it is I'll probably remember).

But the fact that he used the DA's coin idea has always intrigued me. It seems to me that ever since the first year when he tried and failed to make friends with Harry, Draco has always been a bit jealous of the Trio. While he certainly acts as though he's much better than the Gryffindors, I doubt he really, fully believes it (swaggerers seldom do; that's why they feel the need to swagger). Throughout the books, we see him imitating Harry and his friends in one way or another: building up his own Trio in the (rather bulky) form of Crabbe and Goyle, becoming a Seeker, eventually becoming a kind of "chosen one" for the DE's, and so on.

In the fifth book, the parallels between the DA and the Inquisitorial Squad make me feel again that Draco, jealous of the friendship and adventure the Trio enjoy, is trying to find the same thing for himself (how could a boy with Draco's temperament not like the idea of forming a secret group to learn battle tactics?). So the fact that he imitated the DA by using their method to communicate with Rosmerta seems more pitiful than hypocritical to me -- rather than a bigoted villain stealing ideas from his enemies, he's a rather pathetic boy who doesn't even realize how much he wants the happiness and accomplishment he sees in others' lives.

Also, my feeling is that any sixth-year who can do a Protean Charm should go for it...:eyebrows:

As for the poisoning idea being Hermione's, I'm a little rusty but I don't recall the idea being hers (unfortunately I don't have the book right here, but if you tell me where it is I'll probably remember).


Hermione was talking to Harry about Filch not being able to identify a Love potion if it came in a bottle of a coughing potion or something like that (which was a trick the Weasley Wizard Wheezes used to send their stuff to Hogwarts), According to Draco he overheard them and used the same idea to send the poisoned mead to Dumbledore.

Anyways, I think in HBP, Draco was past the point of thinking whose idea it was, he was going to use. Voldemort was threatening to kill his parents, so I don't think he would've refrained from using a certain idea os a tool just because it was a mudblood or a bloodtraitor who came up with it in the first place.

Hermione was talking to Harry about Filch not being able to identify a Love potion if it came in a bottle of a coughing potion or something like that (which was a trick the Weasley Wizard Wheezes used to send their stuff to Hogwarts), According to Draco he overheard them and used the same idea to send the poisoned mead to Dumbledore.

Anyways, I think in HBP, Draco was past the point of thinking whose idea it was, he was going to use. Voldemort was threatening to kill his parents, so I don't think he would've refrained from using a certain idea os a tool just because it was a mudblood or a bloodtraitor who came up with it in the first place.

Oh, thanks, I do recall that now. And I agree; Draco really would be past the point of caring. When your life and your family's lives are on the line, you really can't afford to have scruples like that. In fact, we see him express that kind of thinking in the Tower scene: when Dumbledore objects to the use of the word Mudblood, he's surprised. I think it's pretty clear that though Dumbledore sticks to his principles to the end, Draco's letting a few slide in his panic. And considering what his principles are to begin with, that might not be a bad thing...

But the fact that he used the DA's coin idea has always intrigued me. It seems to me that ever since the first year when he tried and failed to make friends with Harry, Draco has always been a bit jealous of the Trio. While he certainly acts as though he's much better than the Gryffindors, I doubt he really, fully believes it (swaggerers seldom do; that's why they feel the need to swagger). Throughout the books, we see him imitating Harry and his friends in one way or another: building up his own Trio in the (rather bulky) form of Crabbe and Goyle, becoming a Seeker, eventually becoming a kind of "chosen one" for the DE's, and so on. In the fifth book, the parallels between the DA and the Inquisitorial Squad make me feel again that Draco, jealous of the friendship and adventure the Trio enjoy, is trying to find the same thing for himself (how could a boy with Draco's temperament not like the idea of forming a secret group to learn battle tactics?). So the fact that he imitated the DA by using their method to communicate with Rosmerta seems more pitiful than hypocritical to me -- rather than a bigoted villain stealing ideas from his enemies, he's a rather pathetic boy who doesn't even realize how much he wants the happiness and accomplishment he sees in others' lives.

Also, my feeling is that any sixth-year who can do a Protean Charm should go for it...:eyebrows:

True - however the coint idea was one Hermione nicked from the dark mark - so I think its a bit iffy to say a DE got te idea from that and ot the same place that it was orriginally inspired - a mark he had on his own arm!

I don't think Draco really pondered too much on whose idea it was; and idea's an idea. It's just like Hermione taking an idea from the Death Eaters, it doesn't reflect the way she feels about them.

I don't think Draco really pondered too much on whose idea it was; and idea's an idea. It's just like Hermione taking an idea from the Death Eaters, it doesn't reflect the way she feels about them.

Except Hermione views the Death Eaters differently to how Draco views muggleborns. While Hermione hates Death Eaters she still acknowledges that sometimes they have good idea's and that quite a few of them are quite intelligent.

Draco however views muggleborns are inferior in every way so it seems odd that he needed to steal idea's from Hermione because following his logic he should have been able to come up with a better idea almost straight away because of his natural superiority to her.

Draco however views muggleborns are inferior in every way so it seems odd that he needed to steal idea's from Hermione because following his logic he should have been able to come up with a better idea almost straight away because of his natural superiority to her.

I agree with you here -- it is odd. And I think it's a very good demonstration of

a) how illogical and inconsistent the pureblood-supremacy stance is, and

b) how little Draco has really thought about his beliefs.

Draco is certainly a racist, but just how deep and far-reaching that racism is seems to me to be open to question. He uses the word Mudblood all the time, but in the Tower scene he shows just how little significance he places on the term. He spouts pureblood sentiment and lords his blood status over others, but to me that says more about his desire to impress people than about any deep-seated convictions.

Draco treats blood status as something to wave in people's faces, not as a serious idea by which to live your life. It's useful for him when he wants to insult someone, but I don't think he actually evaluates people based on blood status (otherwise he would have a lot more Gryffindor friends...or just more friends, period). Rather, he judges them in the same way any child does, and pulls out the Mudblood label once he's passed judgment.

Assuming such a disconnect between his professed beliefs and the way he lives his life, it isn't so surprising after all that Draco (a practical Slytherin) would see no problem with using an idea taken from a Muggle-born.

I have always wondered why on earth Draco is such a popular character. If you go on FFnet you will find more Draco/Hermione stories than Ron/Hermione and more Draco/Harry stories than Harry/Ginny stories. Does anyone else think it is slightly disturbing that a character like Draco could be loved so much by the readers and not in a "he is a good character in the books way" but rather a "he is a great guy and i would love to marry him" kind of way. Even JKR has found it a bit disturbing

"People have been waxing lyrical [in letters] about Draco Malfoy, and I think that's the only time when it stopped amusing me and started almost worrying me. I'm trying to clearly distinguish between Tom Felton, who is a good-looking young boy, and Draco, who, whatever he looks like, is not a nice man. It's a romantic, but unhealthy..."

When responding to the above post, please base your answers on your interpretation of Draco's character as it is presented in canon and refrain from analysing fandom in general and fans in particular, thanks.

I have always wondered why on earth Draco is such a popular character.
Everyone always like characters that are not the best example of morally righteous values, people who are popularly called "Evil". Its always easy to be the bad guy than the hero, so people do develop certain kind of liking for them.

Same is the case with Draco, he is a damaged good, a good boy with a whole lot of bad influence rubbed into him, and mind you I say good boy now, because I know how he finally turned out to be...had this question been put up 5 years back I would have said Draco was a bad person. But this fandom that you are referring to belongs to 5 years back as well, so I would like to respond to that by saying, Draco was a bad boy then but you could see that he wasn't Evil to the core, and maybe thats what fascinated everyone so much about him. :shrug:

I have always wondered why on earth Draco is such a popular character. If you go on FFnet you will find more Draco/Hermione stories than Ron/Hermione and more Draco/Harry stories than Harry/Ginny stories. Does anyone else think it is slightly disturbing that a character like Draco could be loved so much by the readers and not in a "he is a good character in the books way" but rather a "he is a great guy and i would love to marry him" kind of way. Even JKR has found it a bit disturbing

Interesting quote from JKR! I personally think Draco's flaws which were made clear and put into light in HBP and DH, triggered others' feelings and sympathy towards him. Even Harry who hated him, actually felt sorry for him, when he saw the conflict he was in. This actually makes Draco one of the most fascinating characters in the series, imo. Throughout the first books, he is portrayed as the bully, the arrogant, rich boy who humilates those beneath him, doesn't have respect for those above him, who boasts about his father's position and power (which makes people generally dislike him). But everything changes for him in a short time, and he becomes the person to be pitied, (which makes people sorry for him)

I agree with you here -- it is odd. And I think it's a very good demonstration of

a) how illogical and inconsistent the pureblood-supremacy stance is, and

b) how little Draco has really thought about his beliefs.

I agree, the blood supremacy stance is illogical, as any prejudiced supremacy mindset is illogical, imo. The DEs had members who were not pureblood and Draco could see for himself that there were Muggleborn students who were intelligent and able to study magic successfully, while his pureblood cronies Crabbe and Goyle were...not the brightest, to put it one way.

Draco treats blood status as something to wave in people's faces, not as a serious idea by which to live your life. It's useful for him when he wants to insult someone, but I don't think he actually evaluates people based on blood status (otherwise he would have a lot more Gryffindor friends...or just more friends, period). Rather, he judges them in the same way any child does, and pulls out the Mudblood label once he's passed judgment.

It's likely that he considers Gryffindors blood traitors, as their house accepts Muggleborns as members, and many of them personally accept Muggleborns in their lives. Draco Malfoy also hoped for the monster of Slytherin to kill off "Mudbloods" and hoped one of the murder victims would be Hermione. At the end of GoF, he expressed a similar hope -taunting the Trio that they would be murdered, because they were a "Mudblood", blood traitors. Wishing someone dead, murdered, in fact, is not idle talk, imo. It's vicious and shows a deep seated racism. Growing up with this kind of bigotry explains it, but no way does it excuse it, imo.

[staff edit: ignoring in-thread]

I have always wondered why on earth Draco is such a popular character.

Well, I cannot explain his popularity in general, but I could tell you some reasons why Draco grew on me with time.
- I like irony and sarcasm, and he is exquisite at this. His snide comments are cruel, I'll give you that, but they are almost always funny as well. Again, some people who do not like sarcasm only find them offensive and nasty, but I had great laughs reading them, particularly when he made fun of Ron.
- I empathized with him towards the end, when he was being forced to do things, threatened and terrorized by Voldemort. I am aware he had brought his fate upon himself, but I couldn't help feeling sorry for him.
- He refused to identify the trio when they were captured, and although he didn't actively help them, I liked that particular gesture (and yes, I know he tried to kill them later, during the battle).

All in all, I wouldn't say he shows any kindness or becomes a better person, but I rather enjoyed reading his interactions. I know he is one of the 'baddies' but I cannot bring myself to hate him the same way I hate, for example, Dolores Umbridge.

Draco Malfoy also hoped for the monster of Slytherin to kill off "Mudbloods" and hoped one of the murder victims would be Hermione. At the end of GoF, he expressed a similar hope -taunting the Trio that they would be murdered, because they were a "Mudblood", blood traitors. Wishing someone dead, murdered, in fact, is not idle talk, imo. It's vicious and shows a deep seated racism. Growing up with this kind of bigotry explains it, but no way does it excuse it, imo.

Personally, I've never quite seen it this way. In my experience, children (and teenage boys) quite often do idly "wish" that somebody would die, particularly when they're angry. For a child to say "I hope such-and-such a monster or serial-killer gets you" is foolish and cruel, but rarely indicates an actual desire for that person's death. Children, for the most part, simply don't understand the concept of death, which is why they use the words so lightly.

That said -- it is by no means an appropriate thing to say, and if a child is always talking this way, there's obviously something wrong. Two instances in as many years, however, doesn't seem too unusual to me, given the fact that Draco is a teenage boy trying to look tough to his enemies.

Of course, Draco is not just any Muggle child -- he's a wizard, the son of Death Eaters. Surely this must change the situation for him. Does it give him an excuse to use this kind of language that Muggle children don't have? Of course not. Does it give him a greater responsibility for his words? I don't think so.

This is before the war, remember. Draco's a sheltered child. He wouldn't know anything about death -- for that matter, he probably hadn't had much experience with injury, in a world where a simple spell can fix a broken bone in two seconds flat and just a few drops of dittany will heal a serious wound.

I don't believe Lucius or Narcissa would have told him any Death-Eating stories, so the fact that his parents were used to violence and cruelty doesn't mean that he would have been. I think Narcissa in particular would have zealously protected him from anything to do with that.

If he had said these things after the war had begun and the danger of death was very real for everyone, or if he had been considerably older, I'd find his words deeply disturbing. As it is, I think they're nothing more than the foolish taunts of a rather nasty little boy.

Apologies for the essay post -- I think it's an interesting question, though.

(and yes, I know he tried to kill them later, during the battle).

...Did he? :huh: That's a scene I don't remember...

[QUOTE=BrianSeverus;5624338]Personally, I've never quite seen it this way. In my experience, children (and teenage boys) quite often do idly "wish" that somebody would die, particularly when they're angry. For a child to say "I hope such-and-such a monster or serial-killer gets you" is foolish and cruel, but rarely indicates an actual desire for that person's death. Children, for the most part, simply don't understand the concept of death, which is why they use the words so lightly.

A real-world kid saying they hope a monster gets another isn't a fair comparison, imo, as monsters aren't a real world thing. However, in a fantasy setting, where an actual monster is attacking students, it becomes much less of a taunt and more of a bile filled remark. A kid of twelve knows what death is, imo, and Draco doesn't get away on grounds of his age. If he was seven or eight at the time, maybe, but at twelve, no.

That said -- it is by no means an appropriate thing to say, and if a child is always talking this way, there's obviously something wrong. Two instances in as many years, however, doesn't seem too unusual to me, given the fact that Draco is a teenage boy trying to look tough to his enemies.

There's trying to look tough, and there's being downright vindictive -such as his statement on the Hogwarts Express that Harry would go the same way as his parents. It's not appropriate, I agree, but I would differ on how much is a sign that something is wrong. To make remarks like that at all is a sign of the warped thinking Draco has grown up with. Even if Narcissa and Lucius sheltered him from the facts of what Lucius got up to as a DE, he has grown up with the idea that some lives are worth more than others, that some people are beneath him just because they exist. That isn't healthy at all.

This is before the war, remember. Draco's a sheltered child. He wouldn't know anything about death -- for that matter, he probably hadn't had much experience with injury, in a world where a simple spell can fix a broken bone in two seconds flat and just a few drops of dittany will heal a serious wound.

If he had said these things after the war had begun and the danger of death was very real for everyone, or if he had been considerably older, I'd find his words deeply disturbing. As it is, I think they're nothing more than the foolish taunts of a rather nasty little boy.

What about during the war, or when the war had just started?

GoF, page 632, UK edition
"They'll be the first to go now the Dark Lord's back. Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first. Well, second, Diggory was the f-"

This vile (imo) remark wasn't an abstract, Draco was clearly mocking the death of a fellow student, a boy only a few years older than himself, and warning three others that they would soon be murdered also. He had seen the reality, and was still living with the delusion that being a DE, and serving Voldemort was something wonderful, and that the ethnic cleansing the DEs wanted was a positive.

...Did he? :huh: That's a scene I don't remember...

Well, you are quite right, it was Crabbe and Goyle who tried to actually avada them, but what I meant to say is that Draco's reaction at Malfoy Manor is only one moment, it does not imply, IMO, a change. He stays behind with Crabbe and Goyle and tries to capture Harry alive, but he knows quite well that Voldemort will kill Harry, and that Ron and Hermione will most likely share his fate, or worse.
Thanks for the correction, accuracy is all :agree:

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater? Those are the things Harry saw. Growing up knowing your father is a death eater, being taught that muggle born wizzards and witches are 'mudbloods" and that halfies are somewhat 2nd class magical citizens. Its dracos nurture that makes him the way he is... Or maybe its just what he thinks that his parents want him to act... In the 6th movie / book he seems remorsefull of what he has done and has been doing..He does have a concious but he has probably lived a rough demented childhood.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son. I think Lucious had a wierd sense of excellense. But one mans trash is another mans treasure.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado? From the half blood prince,He is coming into being his own man. He is doing what his parebts and voldermort wants. Crossroads suck. Its hard to want to be a functional member of soceiety and do what you have been taught all your life. It take time and a big slap in the face.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts. Harry didnt have money so why would dracos wealth impress him? to me draco was harrys aunt and uncle wrapped into one.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean? probably a mixture

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH? it was more the fact that he couldnt do it... I dont think he wanted to kill another person... the fact that dumbledore was the target had niothing to do with it. I
he had to prove himself after the fact cuz snape had to do it. He may regret it now but prolly not at the time.. he had no confidence that harry would provial... He would have been on top if harry had lost.
7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.Harry and ron will prolly just let it drop cuz that is how they are...I dont think draco would bring it up unless completely necessary.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue? He prolly got a 9 to 5. Settled down with pansy, and tried to forget the horrible paset.

[QUOTE]There's trying to look tough, and there's being downright vindictive -such as his statement on the Hogwarts Express that Harry would go the same way as his parents. It's not appropriate, I agree, but I would differ on how much is a sign that something is wrong. To make remarks like that at all is a sign of the warped thinking Draco has grown up with. Even if Narcissa and Lucius sheltered him from the facts of what Lucius got up to as a DE, he has grown up with the idea that some lives are worth more than others, that some people are beneath him just because they exist. That isn't healthy at all.

I agree he's grown up with warped beliefs, and I do think that his upbringing had an incredibly powerful effect on him -- but I'm inclined to believe that any thinking was done by his parents. Draco, as I read him, is not a thinker.

My point is that Draco is the kind of child who makes his judgments quickly, and then a) swallows anything fed him by people he's judged as "good" (e.g., accepting racist beliefs from his parents, imitating Snape's nasty behavior, etc.), and b) holds those he's chosen as his enemies in vehement scorn. He doesn't stop to think about what his parents have told him, he doesn't stop to consider that Harry and his friends may be in the right -- in fact, he doesn't stop to think at all. And this trait is what gets him into such deep trouble in HBP.

HBP, really, exemplifies what I think are two of the biggest aspects of Draco's character:

1) he doesn't think things through, and

2) in the end, whether it works for good or bad, he isn't a naturally violent person. He may think he likes violence, and he may talk about it -- but when it comes to the real thing, he doesn't seem to have any stomach for it.

Does this mean Draco is excused for saying the things he does? Of course not. But it is a very different matter, I think, than when Lucius Malfoy, for instance, says something of this nature to Arthur Weasley.

The GoF quote is certainly worrying, but in my view, its effect is precisely to enforce the fact that Harry has experienced something very real and very terrible -- and his classmates simply do not understand just how terrible it was. And this fits in very well with the rather clueless image that seems to me to be given of Draco all along.

The entire series, to me, seems to portray Draco as a very foolish, tough-talking boy who turns green when it comes to actual violence, and a single quote doesn't shake that image for me. If Draco truly grasped the meaning of what had happened at the end of GoF, IMO, his reaction to the events of HBP would not have been what it obviously was.

I am of the opinion that if a 16 year old white boy was walking around a school calling a black girl the "n" word people would not find it acceptable and would not try and rationalise it by saying that it isn't his fault as he was raised that way. The word "mudblood" needs to be put into its proper context and i think the "n" word is a very good real world comparison.

On another note i think i brought up before the possibility that Draco got one on one tutoring outside of Hogwarts which would give him a massive learning advantage over everyone else and i was looking at the Harry Potter wiki website and it mentioned that Draco learn't Occlumens, Nonverbal spells and Unforgivable Curses from Bellatrix in the gap between 5th and 6th year (at least i assume it was this gap as Draco almost used a unforgivable in 6th year). If this is the case then clearly Lucius found a way around the underaged magical law and as we all know one on one tutoring is always going to be a lot more affective than learning in a normal school environment.

The GoF quote is certainly worrying, but in my view, its effect is precisely to enforce the fact that Harry has experienced something very real and very terrible -- and his classmates simply do not understand just how terrible it was. And this fits in very well with the rather clueless image that seems to me to be given of Draco all along.

Personally, it's not that particular quote that makes me think of Draco as a bad person. It's natural that, in a war, people on opposite sides wish their enemies would die. Even Harry in HBP wishes that another death would take place as a result of the DADA curse. He, thinking that Snape is Voldemort's spy, wishes him to die. So with Draco it's not a problem of saying the wrong thing, but not stopping to think whether he is on the right side, as you mentioned.

I am of the opinion that if a 16 year old white boy was walking around a school calling a black girl the "n" word people would not find it acceptable and would not try and rationalise it by saying that it isn't his fault as he was raised that way. The word "mudblood" needs to be put into its proper context and i think the "n" word is a very good real world comparison.

Certainly that would unacceptable -- and it is, in my opinion; I want to clarify that first of all. I'm not certain, however, that it's the best real world comparison.

In our society, we've come to a fairly universal understanding that racism is wrong. Only a very few people believe in white supremacy any more, and they're pretty much universally considered to be completely out of line and even rather primitive in their thinking. (This is how I've found things to be in my experience, anyway -- feel free to disagree).

In the Wizarding World, I'm not convinced it's quite at the same point. I get the impression throughout the books that although the word "Mudblood" is offensive to many people in the WW, the sentiments it represents aren't nearly so offensive: that a large percentage of respected wizards entertain a casual version of the Malfoys' racism (Slughorn would be a good example). If this wasn't the case, I don't think the Ministry campaign of DH could ever have come to pass. Throughout the series, acts of racism are let slide which in our world would provoke lawsuits. Though the acts are just as wrong, the atmosphere they play out in seems to me to be quite different.

PLEASE NOTE: I am not defending Draco's use of the word Mudblood; I think it is unacceptable. NOR am I suggesting that racism is "okay" in the WW.

The racism of the Wizarding World is JUST AS WRONG as racism in our world -- the difference, I think, is in the perceptions of racism in the two worlds.

My point is simply that the atmosphere I sense in the Wizarding World is not the same in respect to racism as the one we live in, and therefore we really can't argue about the pureblood issue of the WW in the (IMO, very different) context of our own society.

Certainly the wizarding world is more racist than the muggle world and i think a good comparison would be in the 1940's or 50's where casual racism was common and even accepted. However in saying that the word mudblood is clearly never offensive as the reaction Draco got from the Gryffindor quidditch team (and Ron) when he said it proves that. Draco knew it was a extremely offensive thing to say (and that it was racist) and yet he said it anyway because he truely did believe that people like Hermione should at the very least not be allowed at Hogwarts and at the most should be killed.

he truely did believe that people like Hermione should at the very least not be allowed at Hogwarts and at the most should be killed.

I agree with the rest of your post (great point about the '40s and '50s), but this I strongly disagree with. It's obvious Draco doesn't think Muggle-borns should be at Hogwarts; but I do not believe he thinks they should be killed. I just don't see his childish mind going that far. To me, his remarks are particularly cruel and tasteless bullying from a very immature boy -- but nothing more. They aren't taken seriously by anybody except Harry, Ron, and Hagrid, and in HBP we see evidence that they really shouldn't be.

Draco may be racist, rude, immature, cruel, and thoughtless -- he may even think that he wants Muggleborns dead (though I'd still contend that his actions throughout the series show that he really doesn't understand fully what that means until HBP) -- but as I see it, his character and role throughout the books are not those of a naturally violent person.

Disturbing as it is to hear a 12-year-old using the kind of language Draco does, I actually find it more disturbing when people attribute sentiments like this -- more reminiscent, IMO, of Bellatrix than anyone else -- to such an immature boy.

I agree with the rest of your post (great point about the '40s and '50s), but this I strongly disagree with. It's obvious Draco doesn't think Muggle-borns should be at Hogwarts; but I do not believe he thinks they should be killed. I just don't see his childish mind going that far. To me, his remarks are particularly cruel and tasteless bullying from a very immature boy -- but nothing more. They aren't taken seriously by anybody except Harry, Ron, and Hagrid, and in HBP we see evidence that they really shouldn't be.

Draco may be racist, rude, immature, cruel, and thoughtless -- he may even think that he wants Muggleborns dead (though I'd still contend that his actions throughout the series show that he really doesn't understand fully what that means until HBP) -- but as I see it, his character and role throughout the books are not those of a naturally violent person.

Disturbing as it is to hear a 12-year-old using the kind of language Draco does, I actually find it more disturbing when people attribute sentiments like this -- more reminiscent, IMO, of Bellatrix than anyone else -- to such an immature boy.

Draco may not be a killer but i don't think he has a problem when others do the killing. He was practically doing a happy dance when Cedric was murdered.

Draco may not be a killer but i don't think he has a problem when others do the killing. He was practically doing a happy dance when Cedric was murdered.

I think he was doing that because he wasn't there when Cedric was murdered. His reaction to all of the violence played out in front of him in HBP, and DH in particular, makes me think he really didn't understand what had happened at the end of GoF. At that point, I think his terrible upbringing and childish lack of understanding was leading him to make the unacceptable remarks he did, rather than a real comprehension of and approval for what Voldemort had done. In DH, on the other hand, we see him disgusted and frightened, from beginning to end, at the torture and murder going on in his home (the Charity Burbage incident, for instance, or Malfoy Manor). Why the big change from GoF to DH, if not because he simply didn't understand the situation in GoF?

Certainly that childish flippancy is terrible, and in a way much worse than Draco's actions in DH -- but I don't think it reflects an actual approval of murder.

I think he was doing that because he wasn't there when Cedric was murdered. His reaction to all of the violence played out in front of him in HBP, and DH in particular, makes me think he really didn't understand what had happened at the end of GoF. At that point, I think his terrible upbringing and childish lack of understanding was leading him to make the unacceptable remarks he did, rather than a real comprehension of and approval for what Voldemort had done. In DH, on the other hand, we see him disgusted and frightened, from beginning to end, at the torture and murder going on in his home (the Charity Burbage incident, for instance, or Malfoy Manor). Why the big change from GoF to DH, if not because he simply didn't understand the situation in GoF?

Certainly that childish flippancy is terrible, and in a way much worse than Draco's actions in DH -- but I don't think it reflects an actual approval of murder.

He was 15 when he made those comments and that is easily old enough to understand the concept of death and its implications.

Draco is too much of a coward to actually get involved in the war (or at least he does his best to avoid it) but he never had a problem with the idea of Voldemort killing mudblood's and blood traitors and only when his family had lost all status within Voldemort's Death Eater ranks did Draco finally want Voldemort destroyed (but again not because he desaproved of Voldemort's beliefs). Had the Malfoy's not lost their status then Draco would have been cheering for the deaths of thousands and he would have been happy when they died.

He was 15 when he made those comments and that is easily old enough to understand the concept of death and its implications.

Just because 15 is old enough to be able to understand, it doesn't mean that Draco did -- I don't think he did. I'm not saying this excuses him; his immaturity is contemptible. But the point, I think, of Draco's remark is more to show how Harry's experiences have separated him from his classmates than it is to demonstrate Draco's beliefs. That Draco can still talk about death in such a casual manner shows that he hasn't encountered death, as Harry now has.

Draco is too much of a coward to actually get involved in the war (or at least he does his best to avoid it) but he never had a problem with the idea of Voldemort killing mudblood's and blood traitors and only when his family had lost all status within Voldemort's Death Eater ranks did Draco finally want Voldemort destroyed (but again not because he desaproved of Voldemort's beliefs). Had the Malfoy's not lost their status then Draco would have been cheering for the deaths of thousands and he would have been happy when they died.

I don't think it was the Malfoys' loss of status that made Draco want Voldemort's destruction -- I think it was the sheer danger they were in. This seems to me to be demonstrated quite well by the scene in Malfoy Manor when Lucius tries to convince him to turn the Trio in.

DH, Chapter 23, pg. 458 (US edition)
"Well, Draco?" said Lucius Malfoy. He sounded avid. "Is it? Is it Harry Potter?"
"I can't -- I can't be sure," said Draco. He was keeping his distance from Greyback, and seemed as scared of looking at Harry as Harry was of looking at him.
"But look at him carefully, look! Come closer!"
Harry had never heard Lucius Malfoy so excited.
"Draco, if we are the ones who hand Potter over to the Dark Lord, everything will be forgiv --" ...

Greyback interrupts...

DH, Chapter 23, pg. 459
..."Harry saw Draco's face up close now, right beside his father's. They were extraordinarily alike, except that while his father looked beside himself with excitement, Draco's expression was full of reluctance, even fear.
"I don't know," he said, and he walked away toward the fireplace where his mother stood watching.

In this scene, Lucius is the one who's still clinging to the hope of being reinstated. It's obvious that the only trouble in his mind is the fact that he's lost favor in the Dark Lord's eyes. Draco, on the other hand, seems to want nothing to do with the whole business. The idea of getting back in Voldemort's good graces seems to hold no appeal for him. It seems clear he's learned his lesson from his experiences in HBP -- have as little to do with Voldemort as possible. The rest of the chapter (as well as the opening chapter) show him frightened and disgusted by everything he sees the DE's doing. It seems plain that disgrace is not the only thing that's worrying him.

Looking at the way he reacts to the deaths that happen in front of him in HBP and DH, I simply can't see Draco "cheering for the deaths of thousands." Before HBP, certainly. As I've said before, he was a foolish child then. After, no. Whether it's admirable or not, I think the main character trait brought out in Draco by HBP and DH is his dislike of violence and death.

NOTE: Disliking violence doesn't necessarily mean Draco disapproves of Voldemort's beliefs. That's another question entirely, IMO.

I believe Draco is a bystander and an opportunist and no, he doesn't have it in him to kill anyone, as we have seen in the books. However, I also think that he would have been fine with Muggle-borns being discriminated against and even killed by other wizards. Just because he doesn't want to watch doesn't mean that he doesn't want it to happen. He's all right with the theory, it's the practice is doesn't want to be involved with, in my view.

I believe Draco is a bystander and an opportunist and no, he doesn't have it in him to kill anyone, as we have seen in the books. However, I also think that he would have been fine with Muggle-borns being discriminated against and even killed by other wizards. Just because he doesn't want to watch doesn't mean that he doesn't want it to happen. He's all right with the theory, it's the practice is doesn't want to be involved with, in my view.

I have to disagree. I don't think Draco wanted to see Hermione tortured and killed or he would have identified her more readily to the Death Eaters at Malfoy Manor. He had seen what happened to Charity Burbage by then, which he also couldn't watch, and she was the Muggle Studies teacher.

I think that's the point of the Epilogue - that Hermione and Harry both know what Draco was really like and that he wasn't that fundamentally different from either of them.

Even Dumbledore was swept up in the "theory" of dominating Muggles and Muggleborns, but he changed his mind. He realized it was wrong, and I think the Malfoys did too, just as Sirius Black said his parents and brother knew it was wrong also. They weren't "fine" with it anymore than Snape was, imo.

Draco just wasn't in the same league of evil as Bellatrix and Voldemort, and I think the canon is pretty clear about that. JMO

I have to disagree. I don't think Draco wanted to see Hermione tortured and killed or he would have identified her more readily to the Death Eaters at Malfoy Manor.

But in that situation identifying the trio would have led to their deaths and while Draco doesn't mind them dying he does not want their blood on his hands. He wouldn't have batted a eyelid of Greyback killed the trio instead of taking them to the Malfoy Manor.

I believe Draco is a bystander and an opportunist and no, he doesn't have it in him to kill anyone, as we have seen in the books. However, I also think that he would have been fine with Muggle-borns being discriminated against and even killed by other wizards. Just because he doesn't want to watch doesn't mean that he doesn't want it to happen. He's all right with the theory, it's the practice is doesn't want to be involved with, in my view.


I think that was probably true in the beginning. However, I do think Draco changes over the course of HBP and DH. When he is asked to positively identify Harry at Malfoy Manor in DH, he is very reluctant, even though it would mean forgiveness for his father and family.

'But look at him carefully, look! Come closer!'
Harry had never heard Lucius Malfoy so excited.
'Draco, if we are the ones who hand Harry Potter over to the Dark Lord, everything will be forgiv-'(DH, Malfoy Manor)

By this time Draco has seen much violence and must know exactly what will happen to Harry if gives him away.Yet, he is full of fear and reluctance to even look at Harry.

'Draco, come here, look properly! What do you think?'
Harry saw Draco's face up close now, right besides his father's. They were extraordinarily alike, except that while is father looked beside himself with excitement, Draco's expression was full of reluctance, even fear.(DH, Malfoy Manor)

Even in the Room of Requirement, when he is supposed to be trying to capture Harry with Crabbe and Goyle, he stops Crabbe from trying to Crucio Harry.

'STOP!' Malfoy shouted at Crabbe, his voice echoing through the enormous room. 'The Dark Lord wants him alive -'
'So, I'm not killing him, am I? yelled Crabbe, throwing off Malfoy's restraining arm, 'but if I can, I will, the Dark Lord wants him dead anyway, what's the diff-?(DH,The Battle of Hogwart's)

Actually, I think this is very reminicent of Snape stopping a DE from Crucioing Harry in "Flight of the Prince, HBP". Also considering Draco himself once attempted to Crucio, Harry (HBP, Sectumsempra), I think it also shows that he has changed and since experiencing violence first hand has found it utterly distasteful, hence why he stopped Crabbe.

I believe Draco is a bystander and an opportunist and no, he doesn't have it in him to kill anyone, as we have seen in the books. However, I also think that he would have been fine with Muggle-borns being discriminated against and even killed by other wizards. Just because he doesn't want to watch doesn't mean that he doesn't want it to happen. He's all right with the theory, it's the practice is doesn't want to be involved with, in my view.

I agree with you here -- to a point. When so many Muggle-borns were killed in the war, I don't think Draco mourned their deaths, and I don't know that he would have tried to stop them even if he could have, but there's a fine line between opposing something and actually wanting it to happen. It seems to me that there's a little more going on than simply not liking to watch people die. In the RoR, he could just have run in the other direction (he's used to doing that) and let Crabbe get on with his work -- but he stayed and tried to stop him. He then hung back in the Fiendfyre to save Goyle's life. It's obvious some kind of change has come over Draco since OotP, and it doesn't seem to be just a queasiness about watching people die.

Draco just wasn't in the same league of evil as Bellatrix and Voldemort, and I think the canon is pretty clear about that. JMO

Probably couldn't even have made it into the Henchman's Union...:evil:

Sorry. I couldn't resist the Dr. Horrible reference. :whistle:

Draco may be racist, rude, immature, cruel, and thoughtless -- he may even think that he wants Muggleborns dead (though I'd still contend that his actions throughout the series show that he really doesn't understand fully what that means until HBP) -- but as I see it, his character and role throughout the books are not those of a naturally violent person.

That would suggest an unhealthy amount of egocentrism - Draco was okay with murder, until his family were at risk of being murdered? :hmm: I think a fifteen year old is also old enough to know what death means.

Just because 15 is old enough to be able to understand, it doesn't mean that Draco did -- I don't think he did. I'm not saying this excuses him; his immaturity is contemptible. But the point, I think, of Draco's remark is more to show how Harry's experiences have separated him from his classmates than it is to demonstrate Draco's beliefs. That Draco can still talk about death in such a casual manner shows that he hasn't encountered death, as Harry now has.

Harry was the only student to witness Cedric's death. He was not the only one affected by it. Nor was he the only student to figure out that murder is wrong by the age of fifteen. Most fifteen year olds know that.

I don't think it was the Malfoys' loss of status that made Draco want Voldemort's destruction -- I think it was the sheer danger they were in. This seems to me to be demonstrated quite well by the scene in Malfoy Manor when Lucius tries to convince him to turn the Trio in.

I agree, Draco figured out long before Lucius that Voldemort's approval was a fickle thing.

I believe Draco is a bystander and an opportunist and no, he doesn't have it in him to kill anyone, as we have seen in the books. However, I also think that he would have been fine with Muggle-borns being discriminated against and even killed by other wizards. Just because he doesn't want to watch doesn't mean that he doesn't want it to happen. He's all right with the theory, it's the practice is doesn't want to be involved with, in my view.

I think that pretty much sums Draco up. He can talk the talk, he was doing that from PS/SS to OotP. He couldn't walk the walk, though. He couldn't stomach these things happening right in front of him, but he was fine with them in theory and at a distance. Now, maybe his experiences in HBP and DH gave him an enormous wake-up call, but I think that would only have been to the extent that he wouldn't want to become involved in any more evil organisations, like the DEs. We see no evidence that he ever accepted Muggleborns and Muggles. Also, I have to wonder what kind of person doesn't realise that torture and murder are wrong until they're staring these things in the face, until they and their family are at risk of benig murdered. Most people are aware that murder is wrong from a young age, without having lost anyone to murder.


Draco just wasn't in the same league of evil as Bellatrix and Voldemort, and I think the canon is pretty clear about that. JMO

I agree that he was nowhere near the level of Voldemort, or Bellatrix. I also think he was nowhere near as evil as Lucius. However, I don't think that makes him a good person, it just mean he doesn't reach the extremes of evil they do. I don't think Draco is evil, but I think he's far from being a good person.

Harry was the only student to witness Cedric's death. He was not the only one affected by it. Nor was he the only student to figure out that murder is wrong by the age of fifteen. Most fifteen year olds know that.

I'd like to point out that Draco grew up in a family who was prejudiced against many sorts of people. A family whose glories were serving the Dark Lord (probably murder and certainly torture and manipulation, a family that cared for nobody). I think it made him immune to the mention of death. He could threaten with it, he wouldn't feel afraid, intimidated or upset when it was mentioned (I think it was obvious when Dumbledore made the speech about Cedric). When it became reality, though, he found out that it wasn't that simple or even normal.

I don't think he cared for Cedric at all, to feel his death in any way. I don't think that the threat of anyone's death, except that of his family, would've awoken Draco and brought him to reality. He was fifteen, yes, but I think he was much less mature than his age.

That would suggest an unhealthy amount of egocentrism - Draco was okay with murder, until his family were at risk of being murdered?

I don't know that it follows from what I said, but I'd certainly agree with this statement. Egocentrism is, after all, Draco's middle name. It's deplorable, but true.

If we're honest, actually, I think each of us will admit we're guilty of the same kind of thing on a much lower level. Every day thousands of people die from starvation, war, etc., while we sit comfortably in our homes...death is a reality which often doesn't bother people until it hits someone close to them. It's a defense mechanism -- if we really cared as much about other people's lives as we should, think of the anguish we'd go through every day just listening to the news.

Draco, however, takes this to an unhealthy extreme. Caught up in the middle of a war, with innocent people dying all around him, he seems to care only about himself and his family. It's the ugly other side to the coin of love, I suppose. Draco goes too far to one side (disregarding other people's lives), but I'd contend that it's entirely natural for one's primary focus during times of danger to be one's loved ones.

I find this despicable in Draco, but I also think it's easy to be a bit hypocritical while condemning it, as if "Of course we're nothing like that!." We should consider the way the same kind of thinking may show up in our lives as well. In a way, that's what I find most interesting about Draco. Neither truly evil nor truly good, he seems to encapsulate all the weaknesses that we're each guilty of from time to time: cowardice, nastiness, arrogance, prejudice, foolishness, etc. None of us have very much in common with villains like Bellatrix, Voldemort, or even Lucius -- but I think there's more than a little Draco in all of us.

There's my disturbing notion for the afternoon...:relax:

I'd like to point out that Draco grew up in a family who was prejudiced against many sorts of people. A family whose glories were serving the Dark Lord (probably murder and certainly torture and manipulation, a family that cared for nobody). I think it made him immune to the mention of death. He could threaten with it, he wouldn't feel afraid, intimidated or upset when it was mentioned (I think it was obvious when Dumbledore made the speech about Cedric). When it became reality, though, he found out that it wasn't that simple or even normal.

I wonder how much Draco actually knew about Lucius' DE crimes, though. Narcissa mightn't want her son to know these things, preferring to let others deal with the dirty work. Lucius may be wary of Draco blabbing at school (which is why he didn't give Draco too much information on the Chamber, and why he probably shouldn't have told Draco about the secret hiding space at the Manor). Having said that, I do think he was brought up in a family that passed on twisted values, and that he accepted these values unquestioningly. I also think he didn't question these values later, when faced with evidence to the contrary at Hogwarts, because it suited him too much to believe that he was important without doing anything to earn it.

I don't think he cared for Cedric at all, to feel his death in any way. I don't think that the threat of anyone's death, except that of his family, would've awoken Draco and brought him to reality. He was fifteen, yes, but I think he was much less mature than his age.

I see what you mean about immaturity. I still think it's disgusting that Draco was okay about murder as long as it didn't affect him, personally. However, I think that his experiences, in struggling with his task in HBP, and being under the eye of Voldemort at Malfoy Manor, his own home, may have given him a bit of understanding and empathy that were severely lacking previously. I think it opened his eyes to see that Voldemort and the DEs weren't running some glorious campaign to put purebloods in their rightful place, but that they were instead amoral torturers and murderers.

If we're honest, actually, I think each of us will admit we're guilty of the same kind of thing on a much lower level. Every day thousands of people die from starvation, war, etc., while we sit comfortably in our homes...death is a reality which often doesn't bother people until it hits someone close to them. It's a defense mechanism -- if we really cared as much about other people's lives as we should, think of the anguish we'd go through every day just listening to the news.

Draco, however, takes this to an unhealthy extreme. Caught up in the middle of a war, with innocent people dying all around him, he seems to care only about himself and his family. It's the ugly other side to the coin of love, I suppose. Draco goes too far to one side (disregarding other people's lives), but I'd contend that it's entirely natural for one's primary focus during times of danger to be one's loved ones.

I know that most people don't go into mourning at sad, awful news stories. However, neither do most people do what Draco does -which is to celebrate these things, and hope for more - as he does with the basilisk attacks, and Cedric's murder. Most people don't look at reports of murder, war and fatal accidents on the news and go "Great, serves them right, hope there's another one on tomorrow night's news". That is what Draco was doing, IMO, not switching his attention away. That's what I find repulsive. I think there's a big difference between not paying a lot of attention to reports of suffering and actually being glad about the suffering one hears of.

I know that most people don't go into mourning at sad, awful news stories. However, neither do most people do what Draco does -which is to celebrate these things, and hope for more - as he does with the basilisk attacks, and Cedric's murder. Most people don't look at reports of murder, war and fatal accidents on the news and go "Great, serves them right, hope there's another one on tomorrow night's news". That is what Draco was doing, IMO, not switching his attention away. That's what I find repulsive. I think there's a big difference between not paying a lot of attention to reports of suffering and actually being glad about the suffering one hears of.
I'm afraid that's more common than you think.

I'm afraid that's more common than you think.

only amoung racists though.

I'm afraid that's more common than you think.

That's a sad thought, and it doesn't say much for the human race if people do that. However, IMO, decent people do not hear of war, murder and tragedy and hope for more of the same, as Draco did.

I didn't like the way JKR portrayed him as such a coward in DH, but what can you do?

Draco was misguided from the start, and I think the racism and prejudice he was surrounded by everyday only helped to further sway his views. Oh, he certainly doesn't have a charming personality, but the way he grew up only made it worse.

I am glad he at least learned his lesson, and tries to treat others with some decency now. What a world a difference a war can make.

I didn't like the way JKR portrayed him as such a coward in DH, but what can you do?

Draco was misguided from the start, and I think the racism and prejudice he was surrounded by everyday only helped to further sway his views. Oh, he certainly doesn't have a charming personality, but the way he grew up only made it worse.

Draco's cowardice is well established right from the first book so i don't think JKR stuffed up there are it is a (like i said) well established character trait of his.

Draco's cowardice is well established right from the first book so i don't think JKR stuffed up there are it is a (like i said) well established character trait of his.

True, but Deathly Hallows was the pitfall.

Draco is a cheat and a sneak from the outset of his character build up. He thinks he can get away with bringing a broom into Hogwarts after bullying his father to buy one. I think it enviromental mostly that his character is so shady and rotten, but don't let his own disingenuous habits go without notice.

Anyone with an emotional heartstring will feel bad for him in DH. It was a pain for me to see him slighted so badly by the Dark Lord. A single task to make up for his family's past blunders was a bit much to ask - persuading him to attempt to kill Dumbledore was beyond any reasonable limit anyone sensible would draw. I felt so much for him when faced with Dumbledore before Snape arrived to carry out the unbreakable vow.

Draco is a cheat and a sneak from the outset of his character build up. He thinks he can get away with bringing a broom into Hogwarts after bullying his father to buy one. I think it enviromental mostly that his character is so shady and rotten, but don't let his own disingenuous habits go without notice.

Anyone with an emotional heartstring will feel bad for him in DH. It was a pain for me to see him slighted so badly by the Dark Lord. A single task to make up for his family's past blunders was a bit much to ask - persuading him to attempt to kill Dumbledore was beyond any reasonable limit anyone sensible would draw. I felt so much for him when faced with Dumbledore before Snape arrived to carry out the unbreakable vow.

I the case of Draco i always thought that he reap what he sowed. He was perfectly okay with the idea of Voldemort and his death eaters killing hundreds if not thousands of mudblood's and blood traitors as long as he didn't have to be directly involved in the killings.

Draco does nothing to redeem himself as at no point does he stop believing that mudblood's are worse than scum and at no point does he actually raise his wand in defence of the light side. With his actions in 6th year including 2 counts of attempted murder as well as his part in the Death Eaters getting into Hogwarts it is actually surprising that he didn't end up in Azkaban for a very long time (he certainly deserved it).

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?
he certainly had the high and might mind set that eventually leads to feelings of superiority, which ultimately leads to being a death eater.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.
I agree with this.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?
I think he originally took on the mission of killing dumbledore as a welcomed challenege, though he didn't stick with that idea, as he cried over it and wavered, as well, when the time came to do the act.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.
agree with this as well.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?
I think he is misunderstood. I think he ultimately just wants to be involved with and belong to something important, something that matters.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?
I think he serves voldemort out of fear. I think he has his regrets.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.
by him leaving them alone, dropping the bullying act.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?
well I think he for sure abandoned his death eater ways. in HBP he was alreaady showing signs of not liking what he was being asked to do. remember he cried over it. as for profession, I am not sure. I would say he probably did stick with pansy.

well I think he for sure abandoned his death eater ways. in HBP he was alreaady showing signs of not liking what he was being asked to do. remember he cried over it. as for profession, I am not sure. I would say he probably did stick with pansy.

I think he was more crying because his mission wasn't going well and he knew if he failed he would be killed.

I think he was more crying because his mission wasn't going well and he knew if he failed he would be killed.

but even when faced with the opportunity to do it he faltered. he did not have murder in him, as dumbledore said.

but even when faced with the opportunity to do it he faltered. he did not have murder in him, as dumbledore said.

Actually he did as his 2 attempts at murdering Dumbledore while they stood very little chance of killing Dumbledore they stood a very good chance of killing someone.

that is true. completely forgot about that.

Well, I love Draco (as well as Snape and Lucius), so my opinions will be colored by that preference.:D

He was perfectly okay with the idea of Voldemort and his death eaters killing hundreds if not thousands of mudblood's and blood traitors as long as he didn't have to be directly involved in the killings.

You say that he was perfectly okay with the idea of Mudblood's and Blood Traitors being killed, and that distinction is what makes all the difference to me.

We all know that Draco talked a big game.... but that's all it was. He could talk about killing Mudbloods all day, when it was just an idea; but when faced with the reality of what he talked about, he balked. It's a common trend that teens can talk a big game, but when faced with the reality of their words, they tend to shrink away from it.

That's what Draco did. He could talk about it, but he couldn't follow through with it when he was faced with the cold, hard reality of it.

Draco does nothing to redeem himself as at no point does he stop believing that mudblood's are worse than scum and at no point does he actually raise his wand in defence of the light side. With his actions in 6th year including 2 counts of attempted murder as well as his part in the Death Eaters getting into Hogwarts it is actually surprising that he didn't end up in Azkaban for a very long time (he certainly deserved it).

The only issue I have here is that we don't actually know that Draco didn't stop believing that Mudblood's were worse than scum, because we aren't privy to his thoughts in these books. IMO, the stuff he spouts off are the same things that his parents have said to him time and time again, and I've always felt that it was possible that he just adopted his parents viewpoint rather than coming up with his own opinion. He was expected to think the same way his parents, and the rest of Slytherin House did, so it would be easy to just adopt his parents viewpoints and call them his own as well.

Honestly, I think if he still thought that Mudbloods were worse than scum, and all that other stuff, that he would have made some kind of comment on the platform in the epilogue. The old Draco would have done something like that; but this Draco was older and wiser, and I think it's possible that at some point before then that he got over the beliefs of his youth.

As for redeeming himself, it might not be much, but the fact that he refused to say whether it was Harry, Ron and Hermione that were brought to the Manor in DH's earns him points in my book. I already loved him prior to that moment, but it would have earned him points with me even if I'd hated him until that moment. These were the same people that he's professed to hate for 7 years; one was a half-blood, one was a Mudblood, and the other was a Blood Traitor.... nothing was stopping him from revealing who they were; but he didn't!

I've always felt that it was possible that he just adopted his parents viewpoint rather than coming up with his own opinion. He was expected to think the same way his parents, and the rest of Slytherin House did, so it would be easy to just adopt his parents viewpoints and call them his own as well.

I agree with this. Draco was always surrounded by people who thought that way. He was never exposed to someone who isn't blood-prejudiced. First, his parents, who taught him to think low of anyone who isn't pure-blooded (look what he thinks of Hagrid without having ever seen what a nive person he os). Then his two friends at Hogwarts who were just like two devoted servants and wouldn't change his views if they could.
He definitely should've questioned those beliefs he was brought up to entertain. But that's not something lots of people do, many people live long without trying to question whether those beliefs are right or wrong.

I agree with this. Draco was always surrounded by people who thought that way. He was never exposed to someone who isn't blood-prejudiced. First, his parents, who taught him to think low of anyone who isn't pure-blooded (look what he thinks of Hagrid without having ever seen what a nive person he os). Then his two friends at Hogwarts who were just like two devoted servants and wouldn't change his views if they could.
He definitely should've questioned those beliefs he was brought up to entertain. But that's not something lots of people do, many people live long without trying to question whether those beliefs are right or wrong.

Doesn't make him a good person. There are many people who grew up with racist parents and as a result they (the children) grow up to commit hate crimes but as far as i know "my parents taught me to be a racist and i never knew any better" was not a defence in any courtroom.

Doesn't make him a good person. There are many people who grew up with racist parents and as a result they (the children) grow up to commit hate crimes but as far as i know "my parents taught me to be a racist and i never knew any better" was not a defence in any courtroom.

I'm sorry, but could you please point out the part where I said this is a defence for Draco's behaviour? Or that he is a good person? :hmm:. The Poster above me said:

I've always felt that it was possible that he just adopted his parents viewpoint rather than coming up with his own opinion. He was expected to think the same way his parents, and the rest of Slytherin House did, so it would be easy to just adopt his parents viewpoints and call them his own as well.

..and I was merely elaborating on that point, :). Because I felt that this is the main reason Draco grew up to be the arrogant proud person he was, for no particularly good reason, that's why he saw most people below him.

I'm sorry, but could you please point out the part where I said this is a defence for Draco's behaviour? Or that he is a good person? :hmm:. The Poster above me said:



..and I was merely elaborating on that point, :). Because I felt that this is the main reason Draco grew up to be the arrogant proud person he was, for no particularly good reason, that's why he saw most people below him.

and i was merely saying that how a person is raised is no excuse for the crimes that Draco commited.

From the Severus Snape thread.

posted by giftedkid
B. He couldn't kill Dumbledore because he was a scared, weak, spineless character, not because he had a moral inability to murder, or because he was just too good of a person. Don't let this one moment infringe upon the impact of the other things did, because IMO, Draco is certainly nothing close to good.

I disagree. I'd like to know though, then, why did Draco not identify Harry in Malfoy Manor? I do agree if you say Draco was a bully, was a spoilt little snot at one time; the important thing IMO was that he changed at the time it mattered the most, when he was on the threshold of choosing the right or the wrong way. After he changed, perhaps he was not still very nice to Ron or Harry or Hermione, but he did show he was good because he could not bring himself to do evil when it meant a lot of terrifying results IMO.

I the case of Draco i always thought that he reap what he sowed. He was perfectly okay with the idea of Voldemort and his death eaters killing hundreds if not thousands of mudblood's and blood traitors as long as he didn't have to be directly involved in the killings.

Draco does nothing to redeem himself as at no point does he stop believing that mudblood's are worse than scum and at no point does he actually raise his wand in defence of the light side. With his actions in 6th year including 2 counts of attempted murder as well as his part in the Death Eaters getting into Hogwarts it is actually surprising that he didn't end up in Azkaban for a very long time (he certainly deserved it).

I never felt like he was the leader of the pack. I know he had cronies following him at every turn but I never thought it was his actions and plans that anyone should have given worry. Instead I felt like it was his lack of self acheivement that led him to the things he chose. If instead he had just one friend or parent for that matter who gave any approval that wasn't earned by a threaten of being cursed he may have been a little better. Don't hate the captain, hate the team.


Honestly, I think if he still thought that Mudbloods were worse than scum, and all that other stuff, that he would have made some kind of comment on the platform in the epilogue. The old Draco would have done something like that; but this Draco was older and wiser, and I think it's possible that at some point before then that he got over the beliefs of his youth.:clap:

This is exactly how I feel about most of the DE's. They might have had opinions at one time as well that may have had their worth, but when someone almighty and powerful as Voldemort stands in your face and knows full well with his occlumency that you will cave, well your opinion gets deflated like the baloon to the needle. :td:

I think i only got part of the quote a few months ago but here is a full quote from JKR about her feelings about the more hardcore Draco fans (specifically Draco/Hermione fans).

MA: What does it do to you to see a character that you love, for people to express sheer hate -

ES: Or vice versa.

JKR: It amuses me. It honestly amuses me. People have been waxing lyrical [in letters] about Draco Malfoy, and I think that's the only time when it stopped amusing me and started almost worrying me. I'm trying to clearly distinguish between Tom Felton, who is a good-looking young boy, and Draco, who, whatever he looks like, is not a nice man. It's a romantic, but unhealthy, and unfortunately all too common delusion of - delusion, there you go - of girls, and you [nods to Melissa] will know this, that they are going to change someone. And that persists through many women's lives, 'til their deathbed, and it is uncomfortable and unhealthy and it actually worried me a little bit, to see young girls swearing undying devotion to this really imperfect character, because there must be an element in there, that "I'd be the one who [changes him]." I mean, I understand the psychology of it, but it is pretty unhealthy. So, a couple of times I have written back, possibly quite sharply, saying [Laughter], "You want to rethink your priorities here."

http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview2.shtml

-------------------------------------------------

I have to say that i completely agree with what JKR says here.

Honestly, I think if he still thought that Mudbloods were worse than scum, and all that other stuff, that he would have made some kind of comment on the platform in the epilogue. The old Draco would have done something like that; but this Draco was older and wiser, and I think it's possible that at some point before then that he got over the beliefs of his youth.

Draco was not near enough to Harry and co. to have a conversation. They nodded to each other but were not within earshot. Even so, I doubt Draco would dare to express prejudices in front of two Aurors and an important Ministry official. Even leaving aside interview information on careers, these are four people who would not react at all well to Draco spouting off bigotry, especially in front of their kids. Lucius Malfoy was arguably more invested in blood prejudice than Draco, and was willing to murder Muggleborn students for political gain. Yet, he had the good sense not to say anything about blood prejudices in front of the Minister at the Quidditch World Cup.


I never felt like he was the leader of the pack. I know he had cronies following him at every turn but I never thought it was his actions and plans that anyone should have given worry. Instead I felt like it was his lack of self acheivement that led him to the things he chose. If instead he had just one friend or parent for that matter who gave any approval that wasn't earned by a threaten of being cursed he may have been a little better. Don't hate the captain, hate the team.

Draco was the leader of his little crew. Crabbe and Goyle obeyed his commands up until DH. Zabini and Nott were not part of that group. There seems to be tension between Draco and Blaise Zabini in the train compartment. Zabini is unimpressed by Draco's boasts, and is quick to call him on things. IMO, it's possible that Draco preferred friendships with people who would not challenge him.
Also - his parents? Where does the threat of being cursed come in there? Draco seems to have been spoilt by his parents.

I think Draco enjoyed the "instant superiority" that came from buying into the blood prejudice. It told him he didn't have to do anything to be better than anyone else, he just was, because his blood was pure. He didn't have to work harder, or achieve something to be better or more impressive, just being born to pureblood parents was enough. :rollseyes:

This is exactly how I feel about most of the DE's. They might have had opinions at one time as well that may have had their worth, but when someone almighty and powerful as Voldemort stands in your face and knows full well with his occlumency that you will cave, well your opinion gets deflated like the baloon to the needle. :td:


And yet, Lucius' prejudices were not deflated after the first war; he was willing to murder Muggleborn children for political gain after Voldemort fell.
IMO, Voldemort's fall meant that the blood-prejudice crowd had to keep their heads down, and not openly show their prejudices. I'd like to think that Draco's experiences in HBP and DH were an eye-opener and showed him that Muggleborns and Muggles were actually people, too, but I don't think it's clear in canon. His experiences don't necessarily mean that he developed a sense of empathy for others. It may just mean that he would have the cop on to stay out of it next time some megalomaniac promises power to purebloods.

To see Voldemort himself brought down by a half-blood (I got the impression most of the DEs thought V was a pure blood) must have been a shock to the system of Draco and all the other pure-blood believers. It's hard to say purebloods are better wizards after that. But whether Draco ever became reconciled to Muggle-born wizards we can't tell.

I find it interesting that Draco refuses to identify Harry at Malfoy Manor, particularly as his revered father had made it clear that capturing Harry would put the family back in favour. Is that the only instance of Draco going against his father? Lucius at this point is still primarily concerned with himself but Draco has got to grips with 'the greater good', or so I feel.

To see Voldemort himself brought down by a half-blood (I got the impression most of the DEs thought V was a pure blood) must have been a shock to the system of Draco and all the other pure-blood believers. It's hard to say purebloods are better wizards after that. But whether Draco ever became reconciled to Muggle-born wizards we can't tell.

I find it interesting that Draco refuses to identify Harry at Malfoy Manor, particularly as his revered father had made it clear that capturing Harry would put the family back in favour. Is that the only instance of Draco going against his father? Lucius at this point is still primarily concerned with himself but Draco has got to grips with 'the greater good', or so I feel.

I think its more down to Draco realising that he will always be a prisoner in his own home as long as Voldemort lives.

I think its more down to Draco realising that he will always be a prisoner in his own home as long as Voldemort lives.

Does that suggest that Draco had realised that Harry really was the 'chosen one'? He didn't know what the prophecy said, did he? Was he trying to save Harry because he believed Harry would bring Voldemort down? He doesn't seem to show that attitude when he follows him into the RoR. There he seems to be wanting to curry favour with Voldemort by bringing Harry to him.

From the 'Whose side is Draco on?' thread:

Draco's crimes in no way lessens Voldemort's, but I see a clear difference in their motives and perhaps that is why I feel more revulsion for Draco than I do for Voldemort.

And Voldemort is so much more revolting to begin with. That gives some measure of how much I hate what Draco did to himself and others.

You mean that Draco is more human than Voldemort so that makes his actions more horrifying to you?

To me, it's all of a piece. Of course I am horrified by Draco's actions against Katie and Ron, but I felt just as much horror and revulsion at the sadistic way in which Voldemort killed Snape. I also felt horror and revulsion at the cold-blooded, contemptuous way in which he exterminated James Potter. Draco's crime is attempted murder, which is very serious. But Voldemort goes much further than Draco. And a villain who displays some degree of humanity (like Draco) is not morally worse (or better) than a villain who doesn't have a shred of humanity (like Voldemort).

It's been argued that Draco is a 'one-dimensional' character. But if Draco is more human than Voldemort -- which I agree he is -- I personally think that makes him an interesting character. It doesn't lessen the impact of the crimes Draco is responsible for, but it also means he's not just a one-dimensional villain. People believe bad things, say bad things and do bad things for a myriad of reasons: that's why bad characters can be compelling and chill our blood. Part of understanding Draco's psychology is seeing that he was virtually conditioned as a child to believe that prejudice and even violence against Muggles and Muggleborns was acceptable and he didn't have the moral fortitude or strength of character to question his parents' amoral worldview. Which was all his own choice, of course.

From the 'Whose side is Draco on?' thread:

You mean that Draco is more human than Voldemort so that makes his actions more horrifying to you?

To me, it's all of a piece. Of course I am horrified by Draco's actions against Katie and Ron, but I felt just as much horror and revulsion at the sadistic way in which Voldemort killed Snape. I also felt horror and revulsion at the cold-blooded, contemptuous way in which he exterminated James Potter. Draco's crime is attempted murder, which is very serious. But Voldemort goes much further than Draco. And a villain who displays some degree of humanity (like Draco) is not morally worse (or better) than a villain who doesn't have a shred of humanity (like Voldemort).

It's been argued that Draco is a 'one-dimensional' character. But if Draco is more human than Voldemort -- which I agree he is -- I personally think that makes him an interesting character. It doesn't lessen the impact of the crimes Draco is responsible for, but it also means he's not just a one-dimensional villain. People believe bad things, say bad things and do bad things for a myriad of reasons: that's why bad characters can be compelling and chill our blood. Part of understanding Draco's psychology is seeing that he was virtually conditioned as a child to believe that prejudice and even violence against Muggles and Muggleborns was acceptable and he didn't have the moral fortitude or strength of character to question his parents' amoral worldview. Which was all his own choice, of course.

Thanks for moving this discussion here!

I think one of the reasons people are finding Draco worse than Voldemort is that Draco is a credible character, the sort many of us might have come across, but Voldemort is such a way-out psychopath that it's hard to perceive him as real in the same way. Draco shows a lot of human qualities - not necessarily good ones but human nonetheless - so we can relate to him and it is distressing to see him 'go bad'.

What I can't decide is whether Draco is actually redeemed by the end of DH. He hasn't actually killed anyone although he has caused considerable harm to Ron & Katie, and he didn't kill Dumbledore when he could have. But whether this redeems him I don't know. To my mind he remained a coward, a bigot and a bully to the end although he did react with distress to the death of the Muggle Studies teacher, and the torturing Voldemort was insisting he did. I can't think of any examples to show that being on the receiving end of tormenting had changed his general attitudes. I do think it had knocked his confidence though.

I think once the trio saved his life and he understood what was going on better and what he might become, he wasn't evil post-DH. The trio would've mentioned something in the epilogue about how not to hang out with Scorpius because his father is evil.

I think once the trio saved his life and he understood what was going on better and what he might become, he wasn't evil post-DH. The trio would've mentioned something in the epilogue about how not to hang out with Scorpius because his father is evil.

Harry might have forgiven Draco (though i have no idea why) but Ron would never forgive him and given that Draco nearly killed Ron and showed no remorse over it Hermione might not be willing to forgive him either (especially as generally Hermione isn't the forgiving type).

I think once the trio saved his life and he understood what was going on better and what he might become, he wasn't evil post-DH. The trio would've mentioned something in the epilogue about how not to hang out with Scorpius because his father is evil.

IMO Draco wasn't evil pre DH - he was a coward, a bigot and a bully but not evil in Voldemort/Bellatrix/Umbridge terms. After DH I reckon he wised up a bit and decided that making his views known, or behaving as he had at Hogwarts wasn't going to get him anywhere in the new order.

IMO Draco wasn't evil pre DH - he was a coward, a bigot and a bully but not evil in Voldemort/Bellatrix/Umbridge terms. After DH I reckon he wised up a bit and decided that making his views known, or behaving as he had at Hogwarts wasn't going to get him anywhere in the new order.

It isn't an evil action to do your level best to kill someone who has never harmed you in your life? It isn't evil to put a curse on someone that takes away her free will and forces her to become an accomplice in your crimes. It isn't evil when you attempt to kill someone and almost murder two innocent bystanders. I can't say whether Draco was evil in the deepest part of his soul, but he sure was guilty of some pretty evil acts. It's your choices of actons that prove what you are, to kind of quote Dumbledore. Draco's actions proved just what he was. Yeah he was between a rock and a hard place, it's no excuse for attempted murder and his victims were not to blame for his parents bad choices in life. Run with mad dogs, chances are you're gonna get bit.

No one ever denied Draco is stupid, a bully, arrogant, ignorant, a bigot and a whole host of other things, but evil??? Draco is not evil. Evil requires a lack of humanity and Draco is human enough. I agree with everyone who says Draco is not a good person (he's not a bad person), but he is not evil. He never would have tried to kill or "harm" (harm seems to be a bit relative in the wizarding world) anyone if Voldemort hadn't threatened to kill his family. Draco had his chance when Harry was at Malfoy Manor but he didn't. I agree with JK who said that the "death-eater lifestyle" seemed glamorous and cool untill it came to close. Same thing happened to Regulus.

I'm not sure if Draco was redeemed though, at least not the way Regulus was.

It isn't an evil action to do your level best to kill someone who has never harmed you in your life?

I don't believe these actions were evil when put in context. If he had done them of his own free will, then sure, but Draco did these things mostly because if he didn't, he and his family would be killed. Killing out of desperation or fear is not evil, in my opinion.

Harry might have forgiven Draco (though i have no idea why) but Ron would never forgive him and given that Draco nearly killed Ron and showed no remorse over it Hermione might not be willing to forgive him either (especially as generally Hermione isn't the forgiving type).

Actually you will disagree but i think generally Hermione is more forgiving and compassionate than Ron.. harry might be the most compassionate of the 3 but hermione is def the 2nd.

I don't believe these actions were evil when put in context. If he had done them of his own free will, then sure, but Draco did these things mostly because if he didn't, he and his family would be killed. Killing out of desperation or fear is not evil, in my opinion.

Well I would say that the person murdered might have a different viewpoint. They/he/she wouldn't give a damn if the killer was coerced or not. I don't think Draco was coerced. Not in the beginning. He was offered this great chance to win glory for himself and his family and he jumped on it. It's only when he just cant quite get the job done and 2 innocent parties are nearly killed that Draco starts to buckle under pressure. He's finding out that killing isn't as easy as he thought it could be. He was as pleased as punch when he got the job, his own mother said so. Draco can talk killing but he doesn't have the backbone to do it face to face. That's what makes him amoral and guilty of depraved indifference. He doesn't care who he kills. That's pretty evil in my book and no excuse about the hard place his family was in lets him off the hook. His family were paying the price of working for a terrorist orginization. Tough on them and Draco but you pays your money and you takes your chances.

No one ever denied Draco is stupid, a bully, arrogant, ignorant, a bigot and a whole host of other things, but evil??? Draco is not evil. Evil requires a lack of humanity and Draco is human enough. I agree with everyone who says Draco is not a good person (he's not a bad person), but he is not evil.

I agree with you. 'Evil' is a very strong word. That is not to deny that flawed people can do very bad things, things that can certainly be called 'evil' in themselves. And that is how I see Draco. He's not a good person, but to me he is not as evil as Voldemort is portrayed to be.

I'm not sure if Draco was redeemed though, at least not the way Regulus was.

Yes, I too have my doubts on that one.

My view of post-DH Draco is that he renounced the extreme violence that had accompanied Voldemort's deadly campaign, but not the purebloodism. :shrug:

Actually you will disagree but i think generally Hermione is more forgiving and compassionate than Ron.. harry might be the most compassionate of the 3 but hermione is def the 2nd.

You have a point. Given the fact that Hermione had endured many insults from Draco, not to mention that she'd been tortured by his aunt, she does seem remarkably forgiving in the Epilogue. ;)

Actually you will disagree but i think generally Hermione is more forgiving and compassionate than Ron.. harry might be the most compassionate of the 3 but hermione is def the 2nd.

Not really the place for it but while Hermione is a extremely compassionate character she isn't forgiving. In fact Hermione is known to hold a grudge against people she has seen as wronged her and she doesn't usually quickly forgive those people. In fact there are times that Hermione can be quite ruthless (more so than Harry or Ron).

Well I would say that the person murdered might have a different viewpoint. They/he/she wouldn't give a damn if the killer was coerced or not.

I would agree, but fortunately, we have a much better perspective on things. It is hard for the parents of a killed child to remain objective.

It's pretty clear that Draco was quite taken with the idea of killing for a cause, but did not actually have it in him to kill when he found out what it entailed. When Draco was given the job initially, it would have been like being finally allowed into a war he had been brought up to see as justified. To him, he was fighting for a good cause. From that perspective, it is no different than a knight being excited at joining the crusade. Most people don't think of them as evil, though many find the people giving the orders to have been so.

I would agree, but fortunately, we have a much better perspective on things. It is hard for the parents of a killed child to remain objective.

It's pretty clear that Draco was quite taken with the idea of killing for a cause, but did not actually have it in him to kill when he found out what it entailed. When Draco was given the job initially, it would have been like being finally allowed into a war he had been brought up to see as justified. To him, he was fighting for a good cause. From that perspective, it is no different than a knight being excited at joining the crusade. Most people don't think of them as evil, though many find the people giving the orders to have been so.

I agree that Draco at first thought he was killing for a cause; rather like Regulus, he admired Voldemort's stance on Muggles and Mudbloods because that was what he was fed when he was young. Sirius had managed to turn against his upbringing but Sirius was a brave man and Draco was far from that. I believe that the thought of being able to serve the great Voldemort was heady stuff for a 16 year old and he didn't stop to question the morality of it. In fact I'm not sure he ever did that.

By the time he sent the necklace and mead he seemed to be driven by panic and fear for his own safety and his family's. From that point his motivation changed from desire to serve the Dark Lord as his family and all his family's friends did, to fear pure and simple. In DH he seemed entirely fear-driven except perhaps for the moment when he didn't give Harry away in Malfoy Manor. That incident seemed to me to be uncharacteristic and consequently very interesting.

I'm inclined to agree with willfitz that the evil one was the one who gave the orders.

I agree that Draco at first thought he was killing for a cause; rather like Regulus, he admired Voldemort's stance on Muggles and Mudbloods because that was what he was fed when he was young. Sirius had managed to turn against his upbringing but Sirius was a brave man and Draco was far from that. I believe that the thought of being able to serve the great Voldemort was heady stuff for a 16 year old and he didn't stop to question the morality of it. In fact I'm not sure he ever did that.

By the time he sent the necklace and mead he seemed to be driven by panic and fear for his own safety and his family's. From that point his motivation changed from desire to serve the Dark Lord as his family and all his family's friends did, to fear pure and simple. In DH he seemed entirely fear-driven except perhaps for the moment when he didn't give Harry away in Malfoy Manor. That incident seemed to me to be uncharacteristic and consequently very interesting.

I'm inclined to agree with willfitz that the evil one was the one who gave the orders.

I agree with this. It must have like quite something to Draco when he was allowed to join in on all the fun. I bet it made him feel all grown up and important. And then he found out it wasn't as much fun as thought it was. A bit like Ron when he found out "being Harry" is actually a lot of work and risky on top.

[QUOTE=willfitz;5717653]I would agree, but fortunately, we have a much better perspective on things. It is hard for the parents of a killed child to remain objective.

I don't think MsJPotter was referring to the parents. I think she might mean the dead victim her/himself. I know that if I was killed because the hitman couldn't be bothered to make sure he hit his target and just started firing shots in the general direction, I would be more than a little angry with said hitman. He received no orders to kill me. As far as I know Voldemort didn't tell Draco to kill anybody else.

It's pretty clear that Draco was quite taken with the idea of killing for a cause, but did not actually have it in him to kill when he found out what it entailed. When Draco was given the job initially, it would have been like being finally allowed into a war he had been brought up to see as justified. To him, he was fighting for a good cause. From that perspective, it is no different than a knight being excited at joining the crusade. Most people don't think of them as evil, though many find the people giving the orders to have been so.

Yes it is quite clear that Draco was killing for a cause. It's the cause that bothers me. IMO Draco knew the cause was bigotry of the worst kind and that was what he liked about it. I've read the posts that say it wasn't really his fault, he was brought up that way. When does it become his fault? When does Draco have to answer for his beliefs? This is a serious question. When do we as humans have to answer for our beliefs? Draco was not a child anymore. He was 16 years old, almost 17. A matter of months from coming of age in his society. In some countries 14 year old can go to prison for the rest of their lives when they kill someone. At what age are we supposed to realise that killing someone is wrong and it doesn't matter if our parents and we ourselves are being threatened. That does not justify murder or attempted murder. The fact of the matter is that there were other alternatives open to Draco and he didn't even try to find them. He knew Dumbledore and he had never seen Dumbledore defeated. His parents likewise knew Dumbledore and knew how powerful he was. Neither they nor Draco tried to get out of the trap they walked into of their own free will and in full knowledge of just how dangerous Voldemort was.

[QUOTE]
Yes it is quite clear that Draco was killing for a cause. It's the cause that bothers me. IMO Draco knew the cause was bigotry of the worst kind and that was what he liked about it. I've read the posts that say it wasn't really his fault, he was brought up that way. When does it become his fault? When does Draco have to answer for his beliefs? This is a serious question. When do we as humans have to answer for our beliefs? Draco was not a child anymore. He was 16 years old, almost 17. A matter of months from coming of age in his society. In some countries 14 year old can go to prison for the rest of their lives when they kill someone. At what age are we supposed to realise that killing someone is wrong and it doesn't matter if our parents and we ourselves are being threatened. That does not justify murder or attempted murder. The fact of the matter is that there were other alternatives open to Draco and he didn't even try to find them. He knew Dumbledore and he had never seen Dumbledore defeated. His parents likewise knew Dumbledore and knew how powerful he was. Neither they nor Draco tried to get out of the trap they walked into of their own free will and in full knowledge of just how dangerous Voldemort was.

Of course he is accountable and he should be. But that doesn't mean it isn't understandable. And I think it does matter if parents or children are threatened. It's hard to make a choice between your parents or children and people you don't really care about. Compare it to a father who murders the attacker of his child. It's wrong, but also understandable and many of us would do the same. And we're not bad people.

I'm not so sure if he ever realized what he believed was bigotry. I think in the end he realized his choices could kill someone and it didn't matter a thing for his parents. To realize what you believe is bigotry you have to understand you're wrong and I don't think he ever did. There are plenty of people out there who still think non-white people are inferior. They don't think what they believe is bigotry.

I don't believe Draco's parents ever realized they could end up on Voldemort's wrong side and the problem with people like Voldie is... once you're in, there is no way out (besides death at least).

Of course he is accountable and he should be. But that doesn't mean it isn't understandable. And I think it does matter if parents or children are threatened. It's hard to make a choice between your parents or children and people you don't really care about. Compare it to a father who murders the attacker of his child. It's wrong, but also understandable and many of us would do the same. And we're not bad people.

I'm not so sure if he ever realized what he believed was bigotry. I think in the end he realized his choices could kill someone and it didn't matter a thing for his parents. To realize what you believe is bigotry you have to understand you're wrong and I don't think he ever did. There are plenty of people out there who still think non-white people are inferior. They don't think what they believe is bigotry.

Exactly. And even if he does see what he is doing as bigotry and prejudice, he has been brought up to believe it is right. Like I say, it is a similar issue, as I see it, as with knights joining up for crusades in the medieval times, or suicide bombers giving their lives to terrorize western society in modern times, because they have been led to believe it is the right thing to do.

[=Siriusandme;5718243]
Of course he is accountable and he should be. But that doesn't mean it isn't understandable. And I think it does matter if parents or children are threatened. It's hard to make a choice between your parents or children and people you don't really care about. Compare it to a father who murders the attacker of his child. It's wrong, but also understandable and many of us would do the same. And we're not bad people.

So are you saying that Draco was a bad person?:eyebrows:
What bugs me about this theory is that Draco was not threatened by anything when he became a Death Eater. Narcissa figured it out, but I don't think it had sank into Draco. On the train he is full of his big job and it's quite clear from his demeanot that he is eager to start. Sure he comes to realise later, after Voldmort had been a houseguest for some time that he's made a deal with the devil and there will be a high price for failure. But he didn't know that till well after he took the job along with the Dark Mark

I'm not so sure if he ever realized what he believed was bigotry. I think in the end he realized his choices could kill someone and it didn't matter a thing for his parents. To realize what you believe is bigotry you have to understand you're wrong and I don't think he ever did. There are plenty of people out there who still think non-white people are inferior. They don't think what they believe is bigotry.

I think bigots do know that what they believe in is bigotry, but they think they are above being condemned for it. They are above the law of common decency, they know the law is there, but not for them. Myself, I don't care if Draco thought of himself as a bigot or as a Pureblooded Wizard that was above the law. I can try to understand why he was the way he was, but I also think he didn't have to be that way. I think he liked it, it made him feel good.


I don't believe Draco's parents ever realized they could end up on Voldemort's wrong side and the problem with people like Voldie is... once you're in, there is no way out (besides death at least).

In one way I quite believe that. I think they always thought it would be the other idiots who got on Voldemort's bad side. The thing is they were fully aware he had a bad side. Lucius and Narcissa were well aware that Voldemort was a murderer, he didn't care, I don't know about Narcissa. I think she knew and just didn't think about what her husband got up to with the rest of the Death Eaters. My sympathy is definitely saved for Katie Bell and Ginny Weasley. Those two girls and Ron were nearly killed by the Malfoy men and I don't forgive them.
There is only so far you can go with the he/she didn't know that he was wrong. At some point you know and you just don't want to face it. I understand why Draco was the way he was, I just don't think the reasons presented for his behaviour justify it.

Harry might have forgiven Draco (though i have no idea why) but Ron would never forgive him and given that Draco nearly killed Ron and showed no remorse over it Hermione might not be willing to forgive him either (especially as generally Hermione isn't the forgiving type).

Will reply in the Hermione thread.

It's pretty clear that Draco was quite taken with the idea of killing for a cause, but did not actually have it in him to kill when he found out what it entailed.

Draco knew what being a DE entailed. He knew that Voldemort and co. were murderers.
I cannot understand the idea that thos ewho joined the DEs were so blinkered and naive, yet the rest of the wizarding world knew exactly what kind of twisted things the DEs did.

I believe that the thought of being able to serve the great Voldemort was heady stuff for a 16 year old and he didn't stop to question the morality of it. In fact I'm not sure he ever did that.

I think that reflects very badly on Draco, rather than excusing him his crimes, or minimising them.

I agree with this. It must have like quite something to Draco when he was allowed to join in on all the fun. I bet it made him feel all grown up and important. And then he found out it wasn't as much fun as thought it was. A bit like Ron when he found out "being Harry" is actually a lot of work and risky on top.

The difference being, Ron's was a case of jealousy, and not a case of idolising murderers and torturers, people who destroyed lives.


Of course he is accountable and he should be. But that doesn't mean it isn't understandable. And I think it does matter if parents or children are threatened. It's hard to make a choice between your parents or children and people you don't really care about. Compare it to a father who murders the attacker of his child. It's wrong, but also understandable and many of us would do the same. And we're not bad people.

I don't think it's the same thing as a parent going after the attackers of their child. Draco's actions are not the same as Percival Dumbledore's, IMO. The people Draco harmed were not harming him. They did not harm his loved ones. IMO, Draco and other DEs are not being held accountable if their crimes are blamed on their upbringing and on other people. At some point, a person has to be responsible for their own actions.

I don't believe Draco's parents ever realized they could end up on Voldemort's wrong side and the problem with people like Voldie is... once you're in, there is no way out (besides death at least).

That is exactly why I see Draco and his fellow DEs as amoral and selfish. IMO, there is also a significant lack of empathy. They support murder, they attempt and commit murder themselves. They destroy lives, and think they have a right to do so. They only decide it's wrong when they are getting a dose of their own medicine.


I think bigots do know that what they believe in is bigotry, but they think they are above being condemned for it. They are above the law of common decency, they know the law is there, but not for them.

I think the actions of the DEs, including Draco and Lucius, show that they believed themselves above the law.

I think he liked it, it made him feel good.

This is my view as well. About Draco and all the others who bought into the blood prejudice nonsense. It made them feel good. It told them they were automatically better, just because of who their parents were. They didn't have to do anything to be better, they just were. It was a prejudice that suited them very well to buy into.

I don't know about Narcissa. I think she knew and just didn't think about what her husband got up to with the rest of the Death Eaters.

I agree, and in that way, I think Narcissa is like the partner of someone involved in organised crime. She knows he's harming and exploiting others, but it doesn't matter, because she's okay, and he isn't harming her. I don't think that's positive or healthy or right in any way whatsoever.

So are you saying that Draco was a bad person?
What bugs me about this theory is that Draco was not threatened by anything when he became a Death Eater. Narcissa figured it out, but I don't think it had sank into Draco. On the train he is full of his big job and it's quite clear from his demeanot that he is eager to start. Sure he comes to realise later, after Voldmort had been a houseguest for some time that he's made a deal with the devil and there will be a high price for failure. But he didn't know that till well after he took the job along with the Dark Mark

I'm not sure. Sometimes good people do really stupid bad things. For me, due to his age and upbringing, he is not a bad person. For me it would have been different if he had grown up in a family like James'. You know.. people who supported muggles, who wanted nothing to do with Voldemort. Now Draco seems like a kid who has been indoctrinated by his parents and all of their friends. His father who, despite his leanings, was well respected. He must have been doing something right... Narcissa did figure it out, but she is an adult. Draco at 16/17 was a teen. A very cocky, bullying teen who, imo, didn't anything would ever happen to him. Like most teens.

n one way I quite believe that. I think they always thought it would be the other idiots who got on Voldemort's bad side. The thing is they were fully aware he had a bad side. Lucius and Narcissa were well aware that Voldemort was a murderer, he didn't care, I don't know about Narcissa. I think she knew and just didn't think about what her husband got up to with the rest of the Death Eaters. My sympathy is definitely saved for Katie Bell and Ginny Weasley. Those two girls and Ron were nearly killed by the Malfoy men and I don't forgive them.
There is only so far you can go with the he/she didn't know that he was wrong. At some point you know and you just don't want to face it. I understand why Draco was the way he was, I just don't think the reasons presented for his behaviour justify it.

A part of my sympathy is also for Draco who could have been a nice smart kid if he had grown up in a different family. In that regard I compare him to Regulus. And no.. his upbringing doesn't justify his behavior, but for me there is a difference between justify and understandable.

Draco knew what being a DE entailed. He knew that Voldemort and co. were murderers.

I cannot understand the idea that those who joined the DEs were so blinkered and naive, yet the rest of the wizarding world knew exactly what kind of twisted things the DEs did.

Personally, I'd be much more surprised if a sixteen-year-old boy wasn't naive. The fact is, if he had been fully aware of what he was getting into, he wouldn't have acted so cocky and confident on the train, as it would have been inconsistent with how he acted later on in the book. Even if he had been aware, he wouldn't have been about to show that to his friends.

Think about teenagers getting into awful drugs like crystal meth. Do they really see themselves a few years (or months) down the road, scrambling and sacrificing their dignity in order to feed their addiction, and abusing themselves when they can't? No, of course not. Our demographic is full of people who see themselves as above all the statistics. I see Draco as just another such person.

I think that reflects very badly on Draco, rather than excusing him his crimes, or minimising them.

Actually, I find that if it reflects badly on anyone, it is his parents, who brought him up to see such things as morally right.

Personally, I'd be much more surprised if a sixteen-year-old boy wasn't naive. The fact is, if he had been fully aware of what he was getting into, he wouldn't have acted so cocky and confident on the train, as it would have been inconsistent with how he acted later on in the book. Even if he had been aware, he wouldn't have been about to show that to his friends.

Draco knew he was joining a group of murderers, and that his task was to murder someone. What he didn't know was that his family would get a taste of what they put others through. In that way, he didn't know what he was getting himself into. But he knew exactly what he was going to be doing to others.


Actually, I find that if it reflects badly on anyone, it is his parents, who brought him up to see such things as morally right.

But, going by the upbringing excuse, Lucius and Narcissa were also brought up to believe in their prejudices. When does someone become responsible for their own actions and prejudices?

[QUOTE=willfitz;5718386]Personally, I'd be much more surprised if a sixteen-year-old boy wasn't naive. The fact is, if he had been fully aware of what he was getting into, he wouldn't have acted so cocky and confident on the train, as it would have been inconsistent with how he acted later on in the book. Even if he had been aware, he wouldn't have been about to show that to his friends.

I don't know about this. I think when Draco saw Cedric's dead body lying on the ground he might have got an idea that Voldemort killed people, and his Death Eaters killed people. The naivety thing should have ended at Cedric's funeral.

Think about teenagers getting into awful drugs like crystal meth. Do they really see themselves a few years (or months) down the road, scrambling and sacrificing their dignity in order to feed their addiction, and abusing themselves when they can't? No, of course not. Our demographic is full of people who see themselves as above all the statistics. I see Draco as just another such person.

Does this mean that Draco was not bothered about killing as he was not impressed by the statistics?

Actually, I find that if it reflects badly on anyone, it is his parents, who brought him up to see such things as morally right.

And it was his decision to follow their teachings to the letter, up to and including murder. Are his parents let off the hook because theirparents brought them up to think that bigotry is the way to live your life? I will ask again, when do you take responsibility for your own crimes if you are Draco Malfoy?

I don't know about this. I think when Draco saw Cedric's dead body lying on the ground he might have got an idea that Voldemort killed people, and his Death Eaters killed people. The naivety thing should have ended at Cedric's funeral.

I would still maintain that there is a big difference between seeing people dead, and I'm sure that Malfoy's upbringing told him that these things were good things, and having to do the killing yourself. Malfoy was prepared to be a hero for his cause, but he was by no means prepared to kill. On the train, he was likely not thinking about what he had to do, but rather about what he was going to be in the eyes of Voldemort once he did it. I'm not sure if I am making myself clear...

Does this mean that Draco was not bothered about killing as he was not impressed by the statistics?

No, my point is that the typical teenager does not think about where their life is leading them when they take up things like drugs. If people can let themselves become miserably addicted to drugs while statistics all around say that this is exactly what will happen, then is it really that hard to see Draco letting himself be lured into being a Death Eater while the statistics say he will have to do awful things?

Yes, he was aware of the things he was being instructed to do, but no, he had no idea what sort of a mental burden such things would be.

And it was his decision to follow their teachings to the letter, up to and including murder. Are his parents let off the hook because theirparents brought them up to think that bigotry is the way to live your life? I will ask again, when do you take responsibility for your own crimes if you are Draco Malfoy?

This is a very applicable point to the real world. The truth is, of the many places from which children pick up things from the world growing up, the messages learned subconsciously from their parents' actions are by far the most highly absorbed. Why, your very point of view on this matter and others is a result of your upbringing. Had you been brought up in different circumstances, you may be arguing from a completely different line. Hey, I'm sure there are some people out there who would support the Death Eaters' point of view entirely.

The fact is, with Draco's upbringing, there was never any choice presented to him. He was told the way things were, and by the time he came to the age where his mind would start thinking for itself, he already had opinions in his head about the status of mudbloods and the role of muggles. Draco was about as likely to reconsider his parents' position as you are to question whether "a" is the first letter of the alphabet.

[QUOTE=willfitz;5718507]I would still maintain that there is a big difference between seeing people dead, and I'm sure that Malfoy's upbringing told him that these things were good things, and having to do the killing yourself. Malfoy was prepared to be a hero for his cause, but he was by no means prepared to kill. On the train, he was likely not thinking about what he had to do, but rather about what he was going to be in the eyes of Voldemort once he did it. I'm not sure if I am making myself clear...

Again, I don't know. The first time I saw a dead body I had hysterics. I knew that there was a whole lot of difference from when I had seen my grandmother alive. Of course I was 12 years old, old enough to know the difference between alive and dead.

[QUOTE]No, my point is that the typical teenager does not think about where their life is leading them when they take up things like drugs. If people can let themselves become miserably addicted to drugs while statistics all around say that this is exactly what will happen, then is it really that hard to see Draco letting himself be lured into being a Death Eater while the statistics say he will have to do awful things?

IMO, yes. Perhaps those statistics were not real to him. The Muggle family that was tortured at the Quidditch World Cup were. He knew it was his father doing the torturing. Just like he knew Cedric and he knew that Cedric was dead. He couldn't fool himself into thinking that boy was alive when he was crowing in pleasure at the fact he had been killed.

Yes, he was aware of the things he was being instructed to do, but no, he had no idea what sort of a mental burden such things would be.

That's life in the Death Eater camp. We all have our burdens in this life. Draco packed his bag with his own hands.

This is a very applicable point to the real world. The truth is, of the many places from which children pick up things from the world growing up, the messages learned subconsciously from their parents' actions are by far the most highly absorbed. Why, your very point of view on this matter and others is a result of your upbringing. Had you been brought up in different circumstances, you may be arguing from a completely different line. Hey, I'm sure there are some people out there who would support the Death Eaters' point of view entirely.

Not really, I was brought up to believe a very different set of values. I am a Gypsy and every Gypsy thinks that God favours them and whatever they do is OK. The culture is changing slowly but it effected me enough when I was growing up that I rejected every man who asked me to marry him. Even today I get asked why I never married. I could not marry outside, but I could not marry inside either. I know what pressures can be brought to bear on you, I know what it takes to say no. I'm not a very couragous person, but I know what is right for me, I think Draco knew what was right for him as well. He chose it.


The fact is, with Draco's upbringing, there was never any choice presented to him. He was told the way things were, and by the time he came to the age where his mind would start thinking for itself, he already had opinions in his head about the status of mudbloods and the role of muggles. Draco was about as likely to reconsider his parents' position as you are to question whether "a" is the first letter of the alphabet.

The fact is there is always choice. You don't have to stop loving and caring for your family, but you do have to stop living by their rules. 'A' is not the first letter of all alphabets. There are many alphabets in this world.
We do seem to be going around in circles. You think Draco had no choice but to be as his parents made him. I know that that is not always so. Let's just agree to disagree.

I would still maintain that there is a big difference between seeing people dead, and I'm sure that Malfoy's upbringing told him that these things were good things, and having to do the killing yourself. Malfoy was prepared to be a hero for his cause, but he was by no means prepared to kill. On the train, he was likely not thinking about what he had to do, but rather about what he was going to be in the eyes of Voldemort once he did it. I'm not sure if I am making myself clear...

I can see your point - perhaps Draco was thinking of the glory and praise he would have for murdering Dumbledore, rather than the deed itself. However, I don't think this says anything good about Draco. Murder is just a stepping stone to get what you want? A means to an end?

Hey, I'm sure there are some people out there who would support the Death Eaters' point of view entirely.

And they're probably the kinds of people that JKR based the DEs on, IMO.

The fact is, with Draco's upbringing, there was never any choice presented to him. He was told the way things were, and by the time he came to the age where his mind would start thinking for itself, he already had opinions in his head about the status of mudbloods and the role of muggles. Draco was about as likely to reconsider his parents' position as you are to question whether "a" is the first letter of the alphabet.

Sirius and Andromeda Black both managed to think for themselves and see past the prejudices of their family. It was not impossible for Draco to actually think. IMO, he chose not to, because the blood prejudice suited him. It told him he was better, without having to do a thing to earn it. This suited someone like Draco, who was very spoiled, and was never expected to earn anything, IMO. That is, until he went to Hogwarts, and was faced with teachers who expected him to earn his grades.

Additional context for Draco's bigotry is that JKR conceived of that bigotry as a phenomenon dating back many generations in the Malfoy family - not merely in the Black family. On the Malfoy side, in other words, it does not start with Lucius.

Part of the backplot JKR draws on in her series (as demonstrated by Dumbledore's notes to Beedle the Bard) is that anti-Muggle bigotry goes back in the Malfoy family at least to the 17th century, when one of Lucius' ancestors was an anti-Muggle pamphleteer. This indicates that generation after generation after generation has been taught the same poison, amplified it, and passed it on to the next generation.

Whether we consider Beedle canonical or not (and I do, given that it figures largely into the plot of one of the clearly canonical books), it's clear that JKR does not view anti-Muggle bigotry, or more specifically, Malfoy family anti-Muggle bigotry, as a phenomenon lacking historical context. Draco's bigotry is a product of many generations of Malfoy bigotry.


Likewise, anti-Muggle bigotry itself does not come out of nowhere. In canon itself (CoS, I believe?), we learn that it derives from persecutions in which Muggles slaughtered Wizards with impunity. From works like Beedle, we learn that Nearly Headless Nick himself was killed as a result of a charm he performed (poorly) on a Muggle. The Wizarding World does not hide itself gratuitously. It hides itself from the Muggles based on experience with Muggles. For a somewhat comical variation of this violent and tragic history, see the Dursleys.

And that brings us to Muggle-borns. Their problem is that, as a consequence of their intimate connections to a non-magical world that persecuted Wizards (prior to Wizards becoming as invisible as possible), Muggle-borns were viewed as having suspect allegiance. Historically, Wizards who wanted to lock the gates to the Muggle-borns saw this action as a matter of Wizarding self-preservation. Later, as it became clear that Muggle-borns usually had a stronger allegiance to the hidden Wizarding World than to the unhidden Muggle world, bigotry against Muggle-borns became (I think) more a matter of unreasoning prejudice.

The point I'm making is not that bigotry is right or excusable but that it has historical origins - inside and outside of the Malfoy family - and that Muggles are not just passive victims in this drama. I would suspect that the most intensely anti-Muggle families pass on to their children horror stories of witch-burnings, beheadings, and the like from the Muggles' anti-Wizard persecutions.

In this manner, some elements of the Wizard-Muggle communities participate in a dynamic that is an awful lot like the dynamics in many of those intractable parts of the real world, where two groups engage in a cycle of persecution, violence, retribution, and then pass on their own bigotries on to their children.

It's also fairly clear that many Wizards in the modern Wizarding World would wish to throw off the shackles of keeping themselves hidden from Muggles. This was part of the motivation behind the Grindelwald/Dumbledore "Greater Good" ideology and was certainly a huge part of the motivation for Voldemort and his followers. Given that emerging from hiding would almost certainly mean war with - and either slavery or slaughter of - Muggles, it seems to me that the Wizarding World's choice to hide itself rather than assert itself is an extraordinary act of kindness... particularly given what Muggles would do to Wizards if they knew about their existence.

But it's not really surprising, given human nature, that not every Wizard is on board for such a benevolent stance against a historical enemy. The Malfoy family, rather clearly, is one of those families wishing to live in the open and assert Wizarding dominance.

This is Draco's inheritance. When Dumbledore tells the Dursleys about the damage they have done to their unfortunate boy, I can't help but hear him saying the same thing to the Malfoys.

We do seem to be going around in circles. You think Draco had no choice but to be as his parents made him. I know that that is not always so. Let's just agree to disagree.

Well actually, I wouldn't say it as such. Draco did certainly have a choice, he just likely was never made aware of it until it was too late. Besides that fact, if Draco ever did choose differently, he would have put himself in mortal danger.

I guess my point is that we all generally do what is right or what is easy. Draco was brought up to believe that what he was doing was right, and he probably was even more proud of it and thought it was even more right because it wasn't easy.

I can see your point - perhaps Draco was thinking of the glory and praise he would have for murdering Dumbledore, rather than the deed itself. However, I don't think this says anything good about Draco. Murder is just a stepping stone to get what you want? A means to an end?

Yes, that is exactly what I was trying to say. I suppose it perhaps doesn't say much good about Draco, but the poor message it sends about his character is no worse than what we can say about most kids his age- that he idealized all of his aspirations and did not think about their consequences.

And they're probably the kinds of people that JKR based the DEs on, IMO. :agree:

Sirius and Andromeda Black both managed to think for themselves and see past the prejudices of their family. It was not impossible for Draco to actually think. IMO, he chose not to, because the blood prejudice suited him. It told him he was better, without having to do a thing to earn it. This suited someone like Draco, who was very spoiled, and was never expected to earn anything, IMO. That is, until he went to Hogwarts, and was faced with teachers who expected him to earn his grades.

Yes, indeed. Sirius was very brave, and his actions were one in a million. As you say, the circumstances in which Draco was raised suited him just fine, so for him to break free of them would have been remarkable. I think that perhaps Sirius' awful parents were what allowed him to leave them behind and see the other side, but that presumes quite a bit.

Additional context for Draco's bigotry is that JKR conceived of that bigotry as a phenomenon dating back many generations in the Malfoy family - not merely in the Black family. On the Malfoy side, in other words, it does not start with Lucius.QUOTE]

True, and it won't end with Draco.

[QUOTE]Post by willfitz:
Well actually, I wouldn't say it as such. Draco did certainly have a choice, he just likely was never made aware of it until it was too late. Besides that fact, if Draco ever did choose differently, he would have put himself in mortal danger.

Just like Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny, George and last but not least Fred who is not really last at all. They could have all enlisted with Voldemort, they didn't in spite of the fact that it meant a death sentence on their families. Well not on Harry's. He already knew what Voldemort was capable of. He found out first hand at that graveyard wher Voldemort's father was buried. They were all his compatriots and around the same age.

Just like Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny, George and last but not least Fred who is not really last at all. They could have all enlisted with Voldemort, they didn't in spite of the fact that it meant a death sentence on their families. Well not on Harry's. He already knew what Voldemort was capable of. He found out first hand at that graveyard wher Voldemort's father was buried. They were all his compatriots and around the same age.

These families do not compare after Order of the Phoenix, as far as I'm concerned, because Voldemort had not taken residence in their parents' homes, but fair enough for earlier than that.

Regardless, I see this as a minor point because really, Draco never had any reason to doubt his way of life. He got to exert power over other people because of his father's influence, he could get away with anything for the same reason, and on top of that he was brought up to believe that his actions were just and right, so there wouldn't be any serious level of angst, and he grew up in a what I can only imagine was a fairly loving environment, which meant that he could associate his way of life with comfort and happiness.

Draco never saw a bad side until it was too late, which meant that if he ever felt he had a choice in his life, in order to turn away from his path, he'd have to come to see his way of life as wrong, which by all accounts seems impossible to me.

These families do not compare after Order of the Phoenix, as far as I'm concerned, because Voldemort had not taken residence in their parents' homes, but fair enough for earlier than that.

Regardless, I see this as a minor point because really, Draco never had any reason to doubt his way of life. He got to exert power over other people because of his father's influence, he could get away with anything for the same reason, and on top of that he was brought up to believe that his actions were just and right, so there wouldn't be any serious level of angst, and he grew up in a what I can only imagine was a fairly loving environment, which meant that he could associate his way of life with comfort and happiness.

Draco never saw a bad side until it was too late, which meant that if he ever felt he had a choice in his life, in order to turn away from his path, he'd have to come to see his way of life as wrong, which by all accounts seems impossible to me.

I don't know why it seems impossible to you. I can judge by what I have seen in my own life and I don't think it impossible at all. It wasn't impossible for Sirius and Andromeda either. As for Voldemort's residence with the Malfoys. When exactly did he move in and start to feed Nagini murder victims on the dining table? The first we here of his presence is at the begining of Deathly Hallows, Lucius was certinly pleased to see himat the graveyard. I just can't feel sorry for people who got what they asked for. I can't think ofa nicer family than the Malfoys to have Voldemort as a houseguest.:evil:

As for understanding Draco's position and upbringing. Sure I can understand exactly what he faced. I also know he didn't have to buy into it as wholeheartedly as he did. That's what I really hate about his actions from the first book onward. He just loved being a bigot.

I don't know why it seems impossible to you. I can judge by what I have seen in my own life and I don't think it impossible at all.

Essentially, I feel that in order for Malfoy to diverge from his path, he would have to see the path he's on as a choice. In order for him to see his life as a choice rather than "the way things are," he would need to see both paths as in some way valid, or both as having flaws, or a combination of the two. In my opinion, the life he had with his parents was likely as close to flawless as it was possible to be. He had loving parents, he had power and influence which he didn't need to earn, he had respect among the wizards he respected, and he got to experience the giddy thrill of exerting his will upon unfortunate "inferiors" like Neville and Harry.

I look at it from the nature vs. nurture thing. I think we can conclude that Draco was nurtured into seeing his parents' point of view, and the nurturing he received and the quality of life would really only enhance his view of this type of life.

That said, if there was ever something which could have turned Draco off the path of his parents, I'd say it would have to come from something violating his human nature, and I don't think he ever saw this until HBP. I'd say that all of the unspeakably awful things which the Death Eaters did at the World Cup and in the War which followed were likely idealized and glorified in his mind, and he was merely a distant spectator, anyway. Regardless, given Harry's conversation with Malfoy at the scene, it doesn't seem as though Malfoy was experiencing any sort of inner turmoil at the scene. He saw what was happening, and seemed to be acting like a sports spectator watching their team winning a game.

So with that in mind, I don't really see how Draco could be considered to have chosen his path. Until he actually experienced the sort of pressures and expectations which came along with being a Death Eater, he never really knew the sort of person he had become, in my opinion.

Frankly, at this point, I have started to lose sight of the point of discussion. :shrug:

I see Draco as a victim of his upbringing. I feel that he never thought that what he was doing was wrong until it felt wrong, and that it didn't feel wrong to him until HBP, when he was actually involved in the horrors that are the way of life of a Death Eater. Finally, I find that the fact that it didn't feel wrong to him was a consequence of his upbringing, not his choices, and for that reason, I would not consider him an evil person.

I see Draco as a victim of his upbringing. I feel that he never thought that what he was doing was wrong until it felt wrong, and that it didn't feel wrong to him until HBP, when he was actually involved in the horrors that are the way of life of a Death Eater. Finally, I find that the fact that it didn't feel wrong to him was a consequence of his upbringing, not his choices, and for that reason, I would not consider him an evil person.

As I said earlier we seem be going over old ground. You have your point of view, which I do respect by the way, I have mine, Let's just agree to differ.:relax:

I'm sure that there are many other things we can have an interesting discussion on.:evil:

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

No, I don't think so. If we had seen, for example, Zacharias Smith, at the beginning then he would probably have come across in the same way as Draco did. The first time the reader can get an inkling of what would happen to Draco is a bit later on in the book when either Fred or George comments that his family were on Voldemort's side in the last war.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.

I think he is demanding, but he wants what's best for Draco, or at least what he thinks is best for Draco. He is probably treating Draco exactly the same way that he was treated by his father. As Lucius has clearly made a success of his life, I believe that he is pushing Draco to be equally as successful.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

Early on his choices were bravado, but once he became a Death Eater and 'agreed' to kill Dumbledore, I'm sure that his choice was motivated by fear. Voldemort is not the sort of person you turn down. I don't think he wants to be a Death Eater as he's not a killer. Towards the end of the Deathly Hallows, when he sneaks into the Room of Requirement, I am sure he had no intention to kill any of the trio, unlike Crabbe & Goyle.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.

He would have grown up seeing people pretend to be impressed with Lucius in order to curry favour, and so would be surprised when somebody was not impressed by that sort of thing.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?

A bit of both really. He is mean, but only because he was brought up that way. And in the end, he was nowhere near as bad as Crabbe or Goyle.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?

I think that he thinks he regrets not killing Dumbledore, because he believes that had he done so he and his family would no longer be used by Voldemort, and they would be rewarded. I also don't think that he considers just how affected he would have been if he did kill Dumbledore. I personally think that he would have regretted it even more if he had killed Dumbledore.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.

I don't think it will.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?

I don't think it was Pansy. For all of Draco's faults, I get the impression he was clever and a good wizard, whereas Pansy just seemed to be a silly little girl, even in the final book when she would have been 17. I'm not Draco's biggest fan, but I think that he was too good for her.

I don't think I ever answered the OP questions for this thread. :)

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

Yes, I'd say so. During that first conversation in Madam Malkins, Draco makes a statement about Muggles and Muggleborns, asking if Lily and James were magic as if it mattered and chatting with Harry about how Muggleborns should not be allowed in Hogwarts. I think he shows the signs of his prejudice very early.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.

Yes, I would agree with this.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

Draco certainly makes his own choices. But if we're going into how much those choices were influenced by his environment, I'd say Draco's prejudices and sense of superiority were derived from the teachings of his parents, and that he believed them wholeheartedly because the world of pureblood supremacist ideology was the world he knew from boyhood and which pampered him for being of pure wizarding stock.

I tend to believe that Draco's attitude toward the actions of the DEs was one of an unknowing fan: his parents said the DEs were fulfilling a glorious cause, that putting Muggles in their place was best for everyone, and that if a few people died, that was the price to pay. He lived in a manor with loving parents and servants to wait on him, and never had to face what killing really meant until it became a personal goal for him, IMO.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.

Well, yes. His father makes his rep by moving in social circles. The placement of a name can do wonders, and I'm sure Draco knows this. I'm not surprised that he grows angry when this once-foolproof method (from his PoV) fails, and one of the most famous wizards of the time rejects him.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?

I think he's both. Harry did not, IMO, have a full understanding of Draco until the tower scene in HBP, when he sees how Draco really feels about his mission, and the threats that plague him.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?

I'm not sure he got as far as regretting anything, and certainly not being unable to kill DD (I believe he didn't really want to do that once he realized just what killing meant). I believe Draco was very much living in the moment in DH, either horrified by his family's situation, unwilling to turn Harry in, or concerned about his friends. I don't believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that he really examines the big picture while all this is going on.

I didn't answer the questions either but I thought I'd do it by commenting on yours thus killing 2 birds with one stone!


1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

Yes, I'd say so. During that first conversation in Madam Malkins, Draco makes a statement about Muggles and Muggleborns, asking if Lily and James were magic as if it mattered and chatting with Harry about how Muggleborns should not be allowed in Hogwarts. I think he shows the signs of his prejudice very early.

I totally agree that he shows signs of his prejudices early but I'm unsure that it showed he would become a DE. IMO that was more to do with the fact that his father was one and he idolised Lucius. We don't find out about Lucius till later.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.

Yes, I would agree with this.

All true although I'm not sure Lucius would have been so dismissive of Draco's results in his first year if it hadn't been a Mudblood who was beating him. Lucius had certainly led his son to believe that wealth, status and power were all-important.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

Draco certainly makes his own choices. But if we're going into how much those choices were influenced by his environment, I'd say Draco's prejudices and sense of superiority were derived from the teachings of his parents, and that he believed them wholeheartedly because the world of pureblood supremacist ideology was the world he knew from boyhood and which pampered him for being of pure wizarding stock.

I tend to believe that Draco's attitude toward the actions of the DEs was one of an unknowing fan: his parents said the DEs were fulfilling a glorious cause, that putting Muggles in their place was best for everyone, and that if a few people died, that was the price to pay. He lived in a manor with loving parents and servants to wait on him, and never had to face what killing really meant until it became a personal goal for him, IMO.

I agree and since I've argued this one at length, I won't go into it again.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.

Well, yes. His father makes his rep by moving in social circles. The placement of a name can do wonders, and I'm sure Draco knows this. I'm not surprised that he grows angry when this once-foolproof method (from his PoV) fails, and one of the most famous wizards of the time rejects him.


Very true! I'm sure he was even more annoyed that he was being rejected for a blood traitor's son and eventually a Mudblood as well. A large part of his needling Harry all through school probably dates back to that first rejection.


5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?

I think he's both. Harry did not, IMO, have a full understanding of Draco until the tower scene in HBP, when he sees how Draco really feels about his mission, and the threats that plague him.

I'm not sure he was misunderstood. Harry seems to have got him down from the start as a bullying, bigoted little rich boy who thought his father was the answer to all his problems. I agree that Harry's opinion of him changed when he saw how hard it was for him to kill, and the pressure he was under, but I don't think those things change Draco's essential character.


6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?

I'm not sure he got as far as regretting anything, and certainly not being unable to kill DD (I believe he didn't really want to do that once he realized just what killing meant). I believe Draco was very much living in the moment in DH, either horrified by his family's situation, unwilling to turn Harry in, or concerned about his friends. I don't believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that he really examines the big picture while all this is going on.

I'm wholly in agreement with you. Draco seems to be lurching from one disagreeable situation to another in DH. My own feeling is that seeing his once all-powerful and idolised father being reduced to such a pitiful state must have shaken his world to the core, especially when Crabbe turned against him because Lucius was no longer important. I can't see him regretting anything he'd done - it is more his nature to find excuses IMO.

I totally agree that he shows signs of his prejudices early but I'm unsure that it showed he would become a DE. IMO that was more to do with the fact that his father was one and he idolised Lucius. We don't find out about Lucius till later.

Fair point, although I'd say his threatening words to Harry after Harry rejects him are...pretty scary for a kid his age. :scared:

I'm not sure he was misunderstood. Harry seems to have got him down from the start as a bullying, bigoted little rich boy who thought his father was the answer to all his problems. I agree that Harry's opinion of him changed when he saw how hard it was for him to kill, and the pressure he was under, but I don't think those things change Draco's essential character.

I don't think they change what Harry knew about Draco before, but I believe that Harry changing his opinion suggests that there was more to Draco than Harry had seen before. It's really down to what one considers misunderstanding, IMO.

Fair point, although I'd say his threatening words to Harry after Harry rejects him are...pretty scary for a kid his age. :scared:


I agree. Although it sounded to me as though he was repeating something he heard his father say before, and longed to repeat it himself, :whistle:.

I don't think they change what Harry knew about Draco before, but I believe that Harry changing his opinion suggests that there was more to Draco than Harry had seen before. It's really down to what one considers misunderstanding, IMO.

I'm not sure that Harry was wrong at all in his initial assessment of Draco. I think the reason Harry's opinion changed somewhat is because Draco also changed -- or at least his circumstances change enough that he altered his understanding of what a Voldy/DE world really meant, and realized it was not at all what he wanted. Draco is still confused about what side to be on during the final battle, but we don't see him throwing AK's; I think it's more about self-preservation at that point. He simply wants a safe way out of his current situation for himself & his parents; in that way he's more like Narcissa than Lucius.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

Initially, I'm sure it was bravado. And that's a choice. But you don't just quit being a death eater. At least not publicly. To do so would require a high degree of skill to escape, or practice legimency, or something. Once you take the step off the proverbial cliff, turning around and getting back to the ledge is pretty difficult.

I think he is demanding, but he wants what's best for Draco, or at least what he thinks is best for Draco. He is probably treating Draco exactly the same way that he was treated by his father. As Lucius has clearly made a success of his life, I believe that he is pushing Draco to be equally as successful.

I think Lucius' actions were ironically counterproductive if he expected Draco to achieve and do well. He spoils Draco, so Draco doesn't have to earn anything himself -such as buying Draco's place on the Quidditch team.
Lucius gets what he wants himself by underhanded methods, so it's hardly going to convince Draco to work for things, if he believes that his name, his pureblood and his money will get him whatever he wants - as shown on the train in PS/SS, and his boasts about knowing the examiners in OotP. That may or may not be true, it may just be Draco trying to unsettle others, but it does suggest that he really has an attitude of it's who you know (and whether you can pay them off) that counts.
That attitude does not help him at Hogwarts, where he has to earn his grades, and where there are many students, like the Trio, who do not grovel to the great Malfoy name and money.


Well, yes. His father makes his rep by moving in social circles. The placement of a name can do wonders, and I'm sure Draco knows this. I'm not surprised that he grows angry when this once-foolproof method (from his PoV) fails, and one of the most famous wizards of the time rejects him.

Draco's friendships show that he doesn't really want a friendship of equals - Crabbe and Goyle obey him mindlessly until DH, and he treats them shabbily (as evidenced by his behaviour when Harry and Ron are Polyjuiced). He rarely hangs around with Nott and Zabini. Zabini is shown on the train in HBP as being a match for Draco, retort for retort, and that doesn't sit well with Draco. I imagine Draco wanted a friendship with Harry for the boast factor, and so that he could influence someone well-known in the wizarding world.

I'm not sure he got as far as regretting anything, and certainly not being unable to kill DD (I believe he didn't really want to do that once he realized just what killing meant). I believe Draco was very much living in the moment in DH, either horrified by his family's situation, unwilling to turn Harry in, or concerned about his friends. I don't believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that he really examines the big picture while all this is going on.


I think it is strange if a person doesn't know what death means until they're sixteen years old. I do agree that Draco never looks beyond what concerns him and his family. I think his ideas of right and wrong are very skewed, in that way - it's only wrong if it hurts Draco or his family, IMO.

I'm not sure he was misunderstood. Harry seems to have got him down from the start as a bullying, bigoted little rich boy who thought his father was the answer to all his problems. I agree that Harry's opinion of him changed when he saw how hard it was for him to kill, and the pressure he was under, but I don't think those things change Draco's essential character.

I agree. I think Harry felt sympathy for the situation that Draco was in, but he didn't start thinking that Draco was some innocent, caring, misunderstood individual.

Fair point, although I'd say his threatening words to Harry after Harry rejects him are...pretty scary for a kid his age. :scared:

I agree. Bellatrix93 pointed out that it was probably something he'd heard at home. As Lucius says the exact same thing to Harry at the end of CoS, I'm inclined to agree. But I do think it suggests that Draco, at the age of eleven, has no problem with the idea that people he dislikes deserve to die. I find that disturbing, personally.


I don't think they change what Harry knew about Draco before, but I believe that Harry changing his opinion suggests that there was more to Draco than Harry had seen before. It's really down to what one considers misunderstanding, IMO.

I don't think there was any misunderstanding when Harry turned down Draco's friendship, or during their Hogwarts years rivalry. I think he had seen what kind of person Draco was - by the time of that meeting on the train, Draco had twice looked down his nose at friends of Harry's, and he had made prejudiced remarks about who should or should not be allowed a magical education. That was who Draco was, IMO, he wasn't secretly a genuine and caring person.


I'm not sure that Harry was wrong at all in his initial assessment of Draco. I think the reason Harry's opinion changed somewhat is because Draco also changed -- or at least his circumstances change enough that he altered his understanding of what a Voldy/DE world really meant, and realized it was not at all what he wanted. Draco is still confused about what side to be on during the final battle, but we don't see him throwing AK's; I think it's more about self-preservation at that point. He simply wants a safe way out of his current situation for himself & his parents; in that way he's more like Narcissa than Lucius.

I agree -IMO, Harry's initial assessment of Draco was spot-on about who Draco was at the time - a spoiled, unpleasant bigot. Draco's nasty remarks when Harry refuses his "friendship" confirms Harry's assessment of him, IMO. I think that Harry's sympathy for Draco's plight in DH doesn't mean that Harry now thinks Draco is actually a kind, misunderstood person.

I don't think they change what Harry knew about Draco before, but I believe that Harry changing his opinion suggests that there was more to Draco than Harry had seen before. It's really down to what one considers misunderstanding, IMO.

In my long-ago reply to this question, I did say Draco was misunderstood (by harry, which I also took to be the sense of the question. Albus, in my opinion, did understand him. :) ) This is because I think Harry ascribed to Draco the lack of conscience and dedication to Voldemort's cause of a true Death Eater, which in my opinion Draco never had.

Harry, as I see it, revised his opinion. This is suggested by his thoughts at the end of HBP about Draco, in which he pities him and wonders what Voldemort is "making" him do. But I think even more so by the contrast of his actions vis a vis Draco and Snape in DH. We see him rescue Draco from a terrible danger (the Fiendfyre) and see the idea of rescuing Snape not even cross his mind (when he realizes he is about to watch Voldemort murder him). In my opinion, this difference reflects his perception of a difference vetween these characters, which makes Draco worthy of rescue in his view, and Snape, unworthy.

In my long-ago reply to this question, I did say Draco was misunderstood (by harry, which I also took to be the sense of the question. Albus, in my opinion, did understand him. :) ) This is because I think Harry ascribed to Draco the lack of conscience and dedication to Voldemort's cause of a true Death Eater, which in my opinion Draco never had.

Harry, as I see it, revised his opinion. This is suggested by his thoughts at the end of HBP about Draco, in which he pities him and wonders what Voldemort is "making" him do. But I think even more so by the contrast of his actions vis a vis Draco and Snape in DH. We see him rescue Draco from a terrible danger (the Fiendfyre) and see the idea of rescuing Snape not even cross his mind (when he realizes he is about to watch Voldemort murder him). In my opinion, this difference reflects his perception of a difference vetween these characters, which makes Draco worthy of rescue in his view, and Snape, unworthy.

I see the point you are making but I'm not sure I agree entirely. If it had been Snape threatened by Fiendfyre, I don't think Harry would have left him to die, no matter how much he hated him. I don't think that's in Harry's nature. In the ROR Harry was in his element ie on a broom, and swooping to rescue Draco was within the range of things he knew he could do. When Voldemort killed Snape, I'm not sure what Harry could have done to save him. It happened quickly and unexpectedly, and Harry wasn't likely to be able to save Snape if it involved taking on Voldemort at that point with a horcrux still out there.

I think that if Harry were asked to choose who he'd rather be on a desert island with (very hypothetical this!) he'd have chosen Draco over Snape, but I think he'd have done that at any stage of Draco's career. I agree that he pities him after seeing what he has been put through in HBP and DH, but I don't think he sees his character as any different, just his circumstances.

That's just my opinion, of course, and up there to be knocked down!:lol:

Harry, as I see it, revised his opinion. This is suggested by his thoughts at the end of HBP about Draco, in which he pities him and wonders what Voldemort is "making" him do.
I still think that the only reason Harry changed his mind a bit about Draco, is that Draco changed his own actions -- Harry hears why Draco was following Voldy's instructions (to save himself & his parents); Draco lowered his wand on the Tower; he wasn't happy when the DE's showed up; he doesn't identify any of the trio at Malfoy Manor. These are words and actions that are a change for Draco. And Harry's thoughts about him change as a result. But his first assessment of Draco in book 1 was completely accurate at the time and in general.

I personally think Draco being forgiven in the end is a bit of a plot hole because he doesn't really do anything that warrants forgiveness and he doesn't pay for his very serious crimes either (including 2 counts of attempted murder).

I just find it weird that the Malfoy's both managed to completely avoid any kind of punishment for their actions.

I personally think Draco being forgiven in the end is a bit of a plot hole because he doesn't really do anything that warrants forgiveness and he doesn't pay for his very serious crimes either (including 2 counts of attempted murder).

I just find it weird that the Malfoy's both managed to completely avoid any kind of punishment for their actions.

Why does Draco have to earn the forgiveness he is shown? IMO forgiveness isn't just for the forgivee (is that a word???) but also for the forgiver. A means to achieve peace and to move on from all the things that have happened.

Why does Draco have to earn the forgiveness he is shown? IMO forgiveness isn't just for the forgivee (is that a word???) but also for the forgiver. A means to achieve peace and to move on from all the things that have happened.

A person has to do 2 things before they deserve forgiveness

1. They need to show remorse
2. They need to pay for what they have done

I don't think Draco did either of those things as i don't recall him ever being upset that he nearly killed Ron or Katie and he certainly didn't get punished for those crimes either.

A person has to do 2 things before they deserve forgiveness

1. They need to show remorse
2. They need to pay for what they have done

I don't think Draco did either of those things as i don't recall him ever being upset that he nearly killed Ron or Katie and he certainly didn't get punished for those crimes either.

Hm, I would disagree completely on the second requisite. That is not forgiveness; that is the sweet sense of revenge, and it is more likely to start wars than to end them.

Frankly, I am very prone to forgiving, and I rarely dish out retribution (or seek for others to do so).

Draco does certainly deserve forgiveness by the time "19 years later" rolls around, as he appears to have learned from the world and "broken the cycle," if his nod to Harry is any indication. Whether or not he deserved forgiveness when the dust settled on the Battle of Hogwarts is another matter. In my opinion, forgiveness is deserved when you can be certain that an action will never be repeated by a person, but I think that this is different for everyone.

Hm, I would disagree completely on the second requisite. That is not forgiveness; that is the sweet sense of revenge, and it is more likely to start wars than to end them.

Frankly, I am very prone to forgiving, and I rarely dish out retribution (or seek for others to do so).

Draco does certainly deserve forgiveness by the time "19 years later" rolls around, as he appears to have learned from the world and "broken the cycle," if his nod to Harry is any indication. Whether or not he deserved forgiveness when the dust settled on the Battle of Hogwarts is another matter. In my opinion, forgiveness is deserved when you can be certain that an action will never be repeated by a person, but I think that this is different for everyone.

There is a difference between forgiving someone for doing something morally wrong but legally fine and forgiving someone who has broken the law. Showing remorse is not enough to avoid punishment if said person has broken the law (and i still maintain that Draco didn't show remorse).

There is a difference between forgiving someone for doing something morally wrong but legally fine and forgiving someone who has broken the law. Showing remorse is not enough to avoid punishment if said person has broken the law (and i still maintain that Draco didn't show remorse).

I think there is a bit of a confusion between two different concepts here. The issue at hand, I thought, was not legally acquitting Draco of his crimes, but actually just forgiveness. I mean, really, we don't know if Draco escaped punishment for his crimes. If he was charged criminally post-battle, then he may well have been tried as a minor, and so his sentence may well have been served by then. I mean, we did completely miss nearly 2 decades. If there is anything to be really discussed here, it is whether we find Draco deserving of forgiveness on a personal level. If you meant the legal route, then I apologize for misinterpreting. :)

I think there is a bit of a confusion between two different concepts here. The issue at hand, I thought, was not legally acquitting Draco of his crimes, but actually just forgiveness. I mean, really, we don't know if Draco escaped punishment for his crimes. If he was charged criminally post-battle, then he may well have been tried as a minor, and so his sentence may well have been served by then. I mean, we did completely miss nearly 2 decades. If there is anything to be really discussed here, it is whether we find Draco deserving of forgiveness on a personal level. If you meant the legal route, then I apologize for misinterpreting. :)

I do mean legal and in terms of serious crimes i don't think a person can be forgiven until they have served their punishment.

As for prison time i do think it is unlikely Draco was sent to prison as the timeline just doesn't work out.

1998 - The war ended
2005 - Scorpius is conceived
2017 - Epilogue

Scorpius was conceived in 2005 and that is 7 years after the final battle. Given how old fashion some pureblood families are Draco would have had to have been married before he even considered having children and assuming Draco knew his wife at least a year before Scorpius's conception that means he met his wife a maximum of 6 years after the final battle.

For the crimes Draco committed 6 years would would not be enough as 2 counts of attempted murder and one count (and i am not sure what it is called) of being complicit in the coup d'état of the ministry and possibly even treason. Those crimes certainly deserve a punishment worse than a a 6 year prison sentence (something i don't think he got anyway).

In my long-ago reply to this question, I did say Draco was misunderstood (by harry, which I also took to be the sense of the question. Albus, in my opinion, did understand him. :) ) This is because I think Harry ascribed to Draco the lack of conscience and dedication to Voldemort's cause of a true Death Eater, which in my opinion Draco never had.

Harry, as I see it, revised his opinion. This is suggested by his thoughts at the end of HBP about Draco, in which he pities him and wonders what Voldemort is "making" him do. But I think even more so by the contrast of his actions vis a vis Draco and Snape in DH. We see him rescue Draco from a terrible danger (the Fiendfyre) and see the idea of rescuing Snape not even cross his mind (when he realizes he is about to watch Voldemort murder him). In my opinion, this difference reflects his perception of a difference vetween these characters, which makes Draco worthy of rescue in his view, and Snape, unworthy.

Harry IMO changed his opinion on Draco based on what he was seeing happen to him as a result of Draco becoming a DE, why he did this and how it made his life so miserable. Harry starts feeling for Draco because he realises that he is not happy with his lot as a DE whereas with Snape what evidence is Harry given to show he has changed and is unhappy being a DE. Rescuing Draco was plausible and instinctive whereas with Snape Harry had no real opportunity to save him. IMO it had nothing to do with worthiness but Harry was not able to save Snape like he was Draco.

I think there is a bit of a confusion between two different concepts here. The issue at hand, I thought, was not legally acquitting Draco of his crimes, but actually just forgiveness. I mean, really, we don't know if Draco escaped punishment for his crimes. If he was charged criminally post-battle, then he may well have been tried as a minor, and so his sentence may well have been served by then.

He might also have been found to have been acting under duress in a (hypothetical) legal proceeding; it appears he believed both he and his parents would be murdered if he failed.

And I agree with willfitz; the issue of Harry forgiving Draco is completely independent of the legal issue of Draco's possible guilt of criminal acts. In the (again, purely hypothetical) legal proceeding against Draco for his supposed crimes, I would consider it quite plausible for Harry to appear as a witness for the defense, both for his overhearing of Draco's conversations with Albus and Myrtle, and for his eyewitness accounts of Voldemort's interactions with Draco (through the Horcrux linkage Harry had with Voldemort) and of the events of "The Lightning-Struck Tower".

A person has to do 2 things before they deserve forgiveness

1. They need to show remorse
2. They need to pay for what they have done

I don't think Draco did either of those things as i don't recall him ever being upset that he nearly killed Ron or Katie and he certainly didn't get punished for those crimes either.



I'm thinking that is a dogmatic reply to what is a prerequisite for forgiveness. Dogmatic to a certain point of view or way of thinking. I don't think either is required for every person to be able to forgive.

I'm thinking that is a dogmatic reply to what is a prerequisite for forgiveness. Dogmatic to a certain point of view or way of thinking. I don't think either is required for every person to be able to forgive.

I agree that remorse is necessary for forgiveness. Some people can forgive a transgressor without the transgressor feeling remorse, but those people are in my opinion very special and very few between. Harry in the books is an excellent example of this type of person. I really do wish that I could feel that Draco deserved forgiveness, but alas I feel that he needed a spell in prison at the very least.

A person has to do 2 things before they deserve forgiveness

1. They need to show remorse
2. They need to pay for what they have done

I don't think Draco did either of those things as i don't recall him ever being upset that he nearly killed Ron or Katie and he certainly didn't get punished for those crimes either.

I agree with willfitz about the second point. I think if it were really required for forgiveness, few people would be forgiven.

At any rate, I think Draco paid a lot as a result of his choices (which, sadly haven't been completey his choices, as he was always heavily influenced by his parents and family traditions). For one thing, when Draco was assigned that mission by Voldemort, he was actually paying for things he hadn't done yet (e.g Katie's curse and the poisoning of Ron). He was denied the chance of maturing from a child to an adult, at the natural normal pace. One day, he was a little spoilt child, believing Voldemort's mission to be an honour, as easily acquired as catching the snitch in a match and winning his house some points. The next he was faced by the ugly truth of the mission, and what it means to commit murder and have your soul split. I think it's even worse than what happened with Harry, who had years to adapt to Voldemort as a constant danger in his life, and whose childhood had prepared him for the hardship of life.

Also another thing I'd like to point out, is that Draco had never committed murder. He had intended to, that's right, but I think people are tried for what they have done, not what they had intended to do, but never did.

I still think that the only reason Harry changed his mind a bit about Draco, is that Draco changed his own actions -- Harry hears why Draco was following Voldy's instructions (to save himself & his parents); Draco lowered his wand on the Tower; he wasn't happy when the DE's showed up; he doesn't identify any of the trio at Malfoy Manor. These are words and actions that are a change for Draco. And Harry's thoughts about him change as a result. But his first assessment of Draco in book 1 was completely accurate at the time and in general.

I do not agree these actions are a change for Draco. Where are the previous actions that show him a murderer? Someone who enjoys the cruelty and torture Death Eaters display? Someone who would send a classmate knowingly to his death? Draco was unpleasant, supercilious, and bullying on various occasions. If Harry had therefore considered him all of the above and changed his mind, I would be puzzled. (I don't see the evidence that Draco was no longer these things at any point in the books, evem the Epilogue). But in my opinion, Harry considered him worse in HBP, and his reconsideration reflects not a change in Draco but a misunderstanding by Harry of what Draco was about.

I do not agree these actions are a change for Draco. Where are the previous actions that show him a murderer? Someone who enjoys the cruelty and torture Death Eaters display? Someone who would send a classmate knowingly to his death? Draco was unpleasant, supercilious, and bullying on various occasions. If Harry had therefore considered him all of the above and changed his mind, I would be puzzled. (I don't see the evidence that Draco was no longer these things at any point in the books, evem the Epilogue). But in my opinion, Harry considered him worse in HBP, and his reconsideration reflects not a change in Draco but a misunderstanding by Harry of what Draco was about.

In my view, they are changes. While it's also my opinion that Draco was probably an unlikely murderer, we do see him send lethal deliveries to Dumbledore twice -- Katie was lucky to recover from the first attempt, and Ron nearly bought the farm with the other attempt. Either could have resulted in a death. Yet we do see him leaning toward not killing Dumbledore, and, as I've stated on this thread, Draco doesn't throw around AK's during the battle. But if not for Snape's arrival, we don't know what he would have done in desparation. Harry certainly believed that Draco would kill Dumbledore, right up until Draco lowered his wand.

Draco's second thoughts on the Tower follow two very lethal instruments sent Dumbledore's way. So the Tower gesture is a change.

Lucius makes Draco look closely at Harry's face twice at Malfoy Manor; Draco answers "I'm not sure" and "I don't know", and Harry sees reluctance & fear in Draco's eyes. Identifying Harry would have been in Draco's favor, yet he refuses to do so. Given his history with Harry, that, too, is a change.

Draco's second thoughts on the Tower follow two very lethal instruments sent Dumbledore's way. So the Tower gesture is a change.

The lethality of the instruments is not universally acknowledged. They kill no one, and they are characterized by Dumbledore (see quote above) as not all that effectual. It was certainly not Draco's conscious, planned intent to kill Ron, Katie, or any person other than Dumbledore, nowhere in the text are we given any hint of such a thing. Their deaths are merely possible outcomes which fortunately do not materialize. As means to kill his target, I would have to agree with Albus - they were lame. :)

I personally, would compare these actions to Sirius's in the "prank" he played on Snape. His intent was, if we are charitable, to scare Snape. (This, anyway, is what he claims, just as Draco, we are told, is trying to kill Albus). That two people almost died was not intended. Nor do I think Draco intended to kill either Katie or Ron; I do not believe he had thought through the possible repercussions in the event the items did not reach Albus.

The lethality of the instruments is not universally acknowledged. They kill no one, and they are characterized by Dumbledore (see quote above) as not all that effectual. It was certainly not Draco's conscious, planned intent to kill Ron, Katie, or any person other than Dumbledore, nowhere in the text are we given any hint of such a thing. Their deaths are merely possible outcomes which fortunately do not materialize. As means to kill his target, I would have to agree with Albus - they were lame. :)


Doesn't matter. At the very least Draco should be charged with attempted murder. Just because he nearly killed someone that wasn't his target doesn't mean he isn't guilty of the crime.



I personally, would compare these actions to Sirius's in the "prank" he played on Snape. His intent was, if we are charitable, to scare Snape. (This, anyway, is what he claims, just as Draco, we are told, is trying to kill Albus). That two people almost died was not intended. Nor do I think Draco intended to kill either Katie or Ron; I do not believe he had thought through the possible repercussions in the event the items did not reach Albus.

They cannot even be compared as Draco's planned to actually kill someone while Sirius did not.

I am curious to know why people think Draco deserves to completely get off his crimes which include

- 2 counts of attempted murder
- 1 count of use of a unforgivable curse
- 1 count of aiding and aiding and abetting Death Eaters
- 1 count of being a complicit in a coup d'état
- 1 count of treason

Those are some very serious crimes and i have yet to see a explanation as to why Draco deserves to completely get off those charges.

I agree with willfitz about the second point. I think if it were really required for forgiveness, few people would be forgiven.

At any rate, I think Draco paid a lot as a result of his choices (which, sadly haven't been completey his choices, as he was always heavily influenced by his parents and family traditions). For one thing, when Draco was assigned that mission by Voldemort, he was actually paying for things he hadn't done yet (e.g Katie's curse and the poisoning of Ron). He was denied the chance of maturing from a child to an adult, at the natural normal pace. One day, he was a little spoilt child, believing Voldemort's mission to be an honour, as easily acquired as catching the snitch in a match and winning his house some points. The next he was faced by the ugly truth of the mission, and what it means to commit murder and have your soul split. I think it's even worse than what happened with Harry, who had years to adapt to Voldemort as a constant danger in his life, and whose childhood had prepared him for the hardship of life.

Also another thing I'd like to point out, is that Draco had never committed murder. He had intended to, that's right, but I think people are tried for what they have done, not what they had intended to do, but never did.

I agree with you Bellatrix, Draco never committed murder. What did he do? He engaged in conspiracy to commit murder, conspiracy, attempted murder, grievous bodily harm with a deadly weapon, assault, and finally depraved indifference to the outcome of his actions. I think that would be the crimes that Draco committed. I'm not a lawyer but I think that would cover the charges. I'm not calling them sins as sins can be forgiven. These are real crimes, crimes that he was never charged with and that he should have been in my opinion. His sins being forgiven is different, he would go to his church for forgiveness and/or to the the ones he wronged, express sincere repentance and sorrow for having wronged them and receive forgiveness.

His crimes, IMO should have been answered in a court of law. I don't count having an awkward houseguest, (to say the least) the same as being tried and convicted for your very real crimes. Draco was never tried for his crimes, and we never see or hear of him expressing his sorrow for having committed them in the first place. He got off very easy, or perhaps he paid for them every day that he lived. The thing with repentance and admitting your sins, or a trial in a court and serving your sentence, is that then it is over, finished with, a clean slate. He didn't seem that happy in the Epilogue, with his receding hairline and curt nod.

These are real crimes, crimes that he was never charged with and that he should have been in my opinion.

Well, it always seems to come back to this. Before all else, we don't know about whether or not Draco was charged (to the best of my knowledge, anyway), and really, it shouldn't matter to us, as far as I'm concerned. I don't see how whether or not Draco has been punished affects his ability to be forgiven as a character.

Doesn't matter. At the very least Draco should be charged with attempted murder. Just because he nearly killed someone that wasn't his target doesn't mean he isn't guilty of the crime.




They cannot even be compared as Draco's planned to actually kill someone while Sirius did not.

I am curious to know why people think Draco deserves to completely get off his crimes which include

- 2 counts of attempted murder
- 1 count of use of a unforgivable curse
- 1 count of aiding and aiding and abetting Death Eaters
- 1 count of being a complicit in a coup d'état
- 1 count of treason

Those are some very serious crimes and i have yet to see a explanation as to why Draco deserves to completely get off those charges.

It comes up once again! No one is arguing that Draco should be legally acquitted for these crimes! Justice and forgiveness are two different things. Justice is about revenge and deterrence, whereas forgiveness is completely devoid of such things.

I will repeat, arguing that Draco deserves forgiveness to a certain extent is absolutely not the same thing as arguing that he didn't do anything wrong, or arguing that he shouldn't be punished, or anything similar. The straw-manning is getting highly frustrating.

Would everyone in here please consider that this is a character analysis thread? We analyse their actions and other characters' reactions to their actions, we do not put characters on trial.

Well, it always seems to come back to this. Before all else, we don't know about whether or not Draco was charged (to the best of my knowledge, anyway), and really, it shouldn't matter to us, as far as I'm concerned. I don't see how whether or not Draco has been punished affects his ability to be forgiven as a character.



It comes up once again! No one is arguing that Draco should be legally acquitted for these crimes! Justice and forgiveness are two different things. Justice is about revenge and deterrence, whereas forgiveness is completely devoid of such things.

I will repeat, arguing that Draco deserves forgiveness to a certain extent is absolutely not the same thing as arguing that he didn't do anything wrong, or arguing that he shouldn't be punished, or anything similar. The straw-manning is getting highly frustrating.

I am really trying not to straw-man, and as Moriath has pointed out the is a character analysis thread, not a court of law. Now my opinion that Draco deserved to be tried in a court of law is not really an opinion on his character. So I will simply state that in my opinion, Draco's character was one of covering his own back to everyone else's detriment. Was he totally evil. No of course not. He was human, but IMO he was a human with hardly any redeeming qualities. He was not kind, generous or brave, but he did love his parents along with their bigotry. I think Draco is a fairly worthless example of a human being, but not one who was totally evil.

I am really trying not to straw-man, and as Moriath has pointed out the is a character analysis thread, not a court of law. Now my opinion that Draco deserved to be tried in a court of law is not really an opinion on his character. So I will simply state that in my opinion, Draco's character was one of covering his own back to everyone else's detriment. Was he totally evil. No of course not. He was human, but IMO he was a human with hardly any redeeming qualities. He was not kind, generous or brave, but he did love his parents along with their bigotry. I think Draco is a fairly worthless example of a human being, but not one who was totally evil.

Well, fair enough, that is all true, but I would put forth that Draco may well have been a much different person in different family circumstances. He was not evil, as you say, and if brought up differently, I don't think he ever will have done any serious wrong. I'd say he could have been rather like Zacharia Smith (not exactly a lot to shoot for), but people like him are still of worth to society; it turns out that sleazy, double-crossing, selfish ne'er-do-wells like them always seem to end up in politics. :)

I do think that if you are willing to look for them, you can find redeeming qualities in everyone. Draco did show a capacity for loyalty, he was clever and resourceful, and quite bright, as far as I can tell. If he ended up working for the ministry, I can see him being very useful for society.

Well, fair enough, that is all true, but I would put forth that Draco may well have been a much different person in different family circumstances. He was not evil, as you say, and if brought up differently, I don't think he ever will have done any serious wrong. I'd say he could have been rather like Zacharia Smith (not exactly a lot to shoot for), but people like him are still of worth to society; it turns out that sleazy, double-crossing, selfish ne'er-do-wells like them always seem to end up in politics. :)

I do think that if you are willing to look for them, you can find redeeming qualities in everyone. Draco did show a capacity for loyalty, he was clever and resourceful, and quite bright, as far as I can tell. If he ended up working for the ministry, I can see him being very useful for society.

Willfitz, we would all be different people if we had had different parents. Probably yes, Draco would not have been as much of a bigot if he had different parents. I think he would still have been as selfish and cowardly as these are personality traits.
Perhaps Draco does have some redeeming qualities, I simply don't have a magnifying glass powerful enough for me to find them.
Draco working for the Ministry? Well Umbridge worked for them, the Ministry could hardly do worse.

He was human, but IMO he was a human with hardly any redeeming qualities. He was not kind, generous or brave, but he did love his parents along with their bigotry.

I guess that's correct. It's also the reason why I think punishment wouldn't have done him any good at that point of his life. The way I see Draco, I think joining Voldemort was both, his crime and his punishment, at the same time. And the fact that he was able to love his parents proves that he wasn't completely lost to Voldemort's wrong ways, that there was still a chance of his seeing the right and wrong based on his own judgement and his own experience, and not blindly following his parents' steps. So what good punishment would've done him? It only would have destroyed any chance he had of correcting his ways, in my opinion, and he was still young enough to change, and to pay back for what he had done, not by punishment, but by any services he could offer. We're not talking about a person who spent his whole life serving Voldemort, but 17 years-old teen who had to serve Voldemort for two years, as a punishment for his father's failing.

The Malfoys' reputation crumbled after Voldemort's downfall, and certainly Draco had to live through that. If he were punished (for crimes that weren't committed or attempted out of his own free will), he would never have been able to build any life of his own. And personally, I don't think he should've been denied the chance to do that, :shrug:.

. He got off very easy, or perhaps he paid for them every day that he lived. The thing with repentance and admitting your sins, or a trial in a court and serving your sentence, is that then it is over, finished with, a clean slate. He didn't seem that happy in the Epilogue, with his receding hairline and curt nod.

I don't recall Ron or Harry giving him a better acknowledgemt, either. And the receding hair line could be an indicator of how hard he had to work in order to regain some respect to his name, and secure a happy life for his family, just as it could be a result of a guilty conscience. Honestly, I see many possibilities of how Draco could've turned out after the war, but being indifferent to his past is not one of them.

Willfitz, we would all be different people if we had had different parents. Probably yes, Draco would not have been as much of a bigot if he had different parents. I think he would still have been as selfish and cowardly as these are personality traits.

Yeah, I do realize this, and I was thinking along the same lines. It is very hypothetical, isn't it?

Yes, you are right, and I agree, Draco would likely have been selfish and cowardly regardless of his upbringing, but selfish and cowardly people still do have a place in society. Perhaps we should, but we don't make a habit of rounding up all of the selfish and cowardly people in the world and putting them in prison. Draco could have followed a much better path in his life, personality traits and all, with a different upbringing. That's all I'm saying, and that this is the complete opposite of my view on Voldemort.

No magnifying glass required by the way, I already spotted cleverness and resourcefulness, as well as loyalty to his family. Those are all things which would look great on another person, but which are marred on Draco by his actions on their behalf. My belief is that actions are prompted by circumstance, and influenced by personality, not the other way around, so I feel that Draco's actions don't speak to the positive parts of his personality as much as they do to the negative circumstances with which he lived his early life.

[QUOTE=willfitz;5723923]Yeah, I do realize this, and I was thinking along the same lines. It is very hypothetical, isn't it?

Yes, you are right, and I agree, Draco would likely have been selfish and cowardly regardless of his upbringing, but selfish and cowardly people still do have a place in society. Perhaps we should, but we don't make a habit of rounding up all of the selfish and cowardly people in the world and putting them in prison. Draco could have followed a much better path in his life, personality traits and all, with a different upbringing. That's all I'm saying, and that this is the complete opposite of my view on Voldemort.

Ah but selfishness and cowardice are not against any law that I know of. Not many selfish and cowardly people seriously injure 2 other people while attempting to murder a third. Selfishness and cowardice are part of the human condition, murder and attempted murder are not.

No magnifying glass required by the way, I already spotted cleverness and resourcefulness, as well as loyalty to his family. Those are all things which would look great on another person, but which are marred on Draco by his actions on their behalf. My belief is that actions are prompted by circumstance, and influenced by personality, not the other way around, so I feel that Draco's actions don't speak to the positive parts of his personality as much as they do to the negative circumstances with which he lived his early life.

I think Will, that you measure a person's worth by their potential and I admire that about you. I measure a person's worth and I include myself in this, I measure by their actions. For me Draco's actions that he comitted of his own free will tarnishes his youth. Now, do I hope that he changed and led a good life after Hogswarts, of course I do. I'm just not very hopeful about it.

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Ah but selfishness and cowardice are not against any law that I know of. Not many selfish and cowardly people seriously injure 2 other people while attempting to murder a third. Selfishness and cowardice are part of the human condition, murder and attempted murder are not.


I think Will, that you measure a person's worth by their potential and I admire that about you. I measure a person's worth and I include myself in this, I measure by their actions. For me Draco's actions that he comitted of his own free will tarnishes his youth. Now, do I hope that he changed and led a good life after Hogswarts, of course I do. I'm just not very hopeful about it.

I agree that Draco's actions when he was 16 don't enhance his character. His reasons for taking on the task of killing Dumbledore were not initially to save his family as far as I can see - that came later when he couldn't manage the task soon enough. Initially he seems to have seen it as an opportunity to gain glory and honour among the DEs, as evinced by his conversation on the train and the fact that Bella, who had been teaching him occlumency all summer, saw it as an honour. This, to me, came from his personality traits of selfishness and a sense of his superiority.

He changed during the year when he discoved how ruthless Voldemort could be even to DEs IMO and became fearful to the point of panicking. All to save his own skin and his family of course. I don't think for a moment he considered who else might be harmed by his actions.

As for his life after Hogwarts, I think he would have had to lead a fairly good life. Although the Malfoys 'weaseled' their way out of Azkaban (as Jo said in an interview) I'm pretty sure the Aurors would have been keeping a close eye on them. Harry, after all, knew exactly what Draco had done and would have been out to spot any further DE activity in that family. Draco would have been keen to save his own skin again and that would have meant lying low and behaving himself, wouldn't it?

Ah but selfishness and cowardice are not against any law that I know of. Not many selfish and cowardly people seriously injure 2 other people while attempting to murder a third. Selfishness and cowardice are part of the human condition, murder and attempted murder are not.

Now I must admit myself confused, because this is exactly the point I was trying to make about Draco- that selfishness and cowardice, his predominant negative characteristics in other words, are not enough to account for his actions. For an explanation of this, we must look at the circumstances in which he lived. The murderous part of Draco was brought on by his environment and the situation in which he was placed as a Death Eater/sacrificial lamb.

If he ended up working for the ministry, I can see him being very useful for society.

I doubt that the post-war Ministry would hire Draco. At least, I hope not. I think the post-war Ministry would have been very careful to avoid the mistake of giving any kind of position of influence to people with known DE connections or known blood prejudices. I don't see someone with Draco's prejudices being useful to society if he were in a government job. I think he would carry out such a job as he had learned from Lucius -bribery, intimidation, looking out for number one, other people don't matter a toss, and Muggleborns certainly don't. And Draco might decide to just live off his family money, as Lucius seems to have done.

I guess that's correct. It's also the reason why I think punishment wouldn't have done him any good at that point of his life. The way I see Draco, I think joining Voldemort was both, his crime and his punishment, at the same time. And the fact that he was able to love his parents proves that he wasn't completely lost to Voldemort's wrong ways, that there was still a chance of his seeing the right and wrong based on his own judgement and his own experience, and not blindly following his parents' steps.

I don't think loving his parents is anything to say that Draco was not completely bad. Lucius loved his son, but had no problems doing something I personally consider completely evil to other peoples' children in CoS.


As for his life after Hogwarts, I think he would have had to lead a fairly good life. Although the Malfoys 'weaseled' their way out of Azkaban (as Jo said in an interview) I'm pretty sure the Aurors would have been keeping a close eye on them. Harry, after all, knew exactly what Draco had done and would have been out to spot any further DE activity in that family. Draco would have been keen to save his own skin again and that would have meant lying low and behaving himself, wouldn't it?

I think so, too. The Ministry after the second war was not run by someone impressed by pure blood and a pouch full of galleons, like Fudge. The Auror office would possibly have kept close tabs on the Malfoys. I think that while Draco would not have changed his prejudiced beliefs, he would have learnt that twisted megalomaniacs aren't exactly the most reliable leaders and will turn on their followers as quickly as on their enemies. I think that knowledge would make him less likely to get involved next time someone starts trouble about pureblood supremacy and subduing the Ministry.

Now I must admit myself confused, because this is exactly the point I was trying to make about Draco- that selfishness and cowardice, his predominant negative characteristics in other words, are not enough to account for his actions. For an explanation of this, we must look at the circumstances in which he lived. The murderous part of Draco was brought on by his environment and the situation in which he was placed as a Death Eater/sacrificial lamb.

Perhaps I'm ot making myself clear. It wasn't Draco's selfishness and cowardice tat led him into crime in my eyes. It was his bigotry. Draco became a Death Eater for the glory of being the one who would rescue his family from the pit they had willing dug for themselves. By they, I mean his mother and father I include Narcissa in that. She didn't go running to Snape for help before things turned bad for them. I really don't see much sign of Draco's cleverness in this scenario. He was thrilled at becoming a Death Eater. He thought, I think that he would kill Dumbledore very easily and he would be The Man, in the eyes of the other Death Eaters. Draco only starts to regret things when he finds it harder to kill han he thought it would be. I do not feel sorry for him because he had a hard time murdering someone.

Yes, we could blame Draco's mudrerous plans on his upbringing. Doesn't that rob him of his personal resposibility? Draco's father was a would be murderer, but Draco was not his father. Draco ws his own man and let's face it,he was at Hogwarts 9 months out of the year after the age of 11. Bigotry was not on the ciriculem at Hogwarts. Draco was exposed to an entirely different mindset. He didn't want to learn it. His choice, his.I am not fond of blaming a person's upbringing for their mistakes. Sooner or later you make your own mind up. I know this because I had to face that choice, everybody does. We can either be slaves to the traditions we have been taught or we can weight them and judge them. The choices we make about them are ours, not our parents. His parents did not enslave Draco, Imperius him, or Confound him. Draco made his choices. It keeps coming back to that, you can lead a horse to water, you can't force him to drink. Draco IMO liked being a bigot. I don't think he thought that he was a bigot in those terms. I think he thought I'm a Pure-Blooded Wizard and I should be more priviliged than anybody else. I can do and say anything I like.

I doubt that the post-war Ministry would hire Draco. At least, I hope not.

No, but in term of his personality, the point was that despite his less favourable characteristics, he is not of absolutely no use to society. I am not saying that he would have gone on to work for the ministry, but that his characteristics did not deny him from being a useful sort of person.

No, but in term of his personality, the point was that despite his less favourable characteristics, he is not of absolutely no use to society. I am not saying that he would have gone on to work for the ministry, but that his characteristics did not deny him from being a useful sort of person.

I think his personality trait of bigotry would go against him in a Ministry run by a man who believes "We're all human beings and every life is worth saving".
Plus, IMO, Draco would need to consider other people's needs in order to be useful to society, and I don't see that happening. I think Draco could do well for himself, but it would not be likely to benefit others or be a positive contribution to the wizarding community.

I think his personality trait of bigotry would go against him in a Ministry run by a man who believes "We're all human beings and every life is worth saving".
Plus, IMO, Draco would need to consider other people's needs in order to be useful to society, and I don't see that happening. I think Draco could do well for himself, but it would not be likely to benefit others or be a positive contribution to the wizarding community.

That is an argument to be sure, and of course, Adam Smith would have us believe that in doing well for himself, he is helping the common good. :)

My point here, though, was to consider Draco without the influence of his parents, and thus without the bigotry and feelings of superiority. Honestly, I don't have any trouble considering the possibility of a politician who has his own best interests at heart. ;)

That is an argument to be sure, and of course, Adam Smith would have us believe that in doing well for himself, he is helping the common good. :)

My point here, though, was to consider Draco without the influence of his parents, and thus without the bigotry and feelings of superiority. Honestly, I don't have any trouble considering the possibility of a politician who has his own best interests at heart. ;)

:lol: Nor do I, but that's politics, I suppose. However, I don't like the idea of such a bigot as Draco having any kind of political power.
Plus, as eliza mentioned, Draco without the influence of his parents is not the Draco of canon. Anything else is speculation, IMO.

:lol: Nor do I, but that's politics, I suppose. However, I don't like the idea of such a bigot as Draco having any kind of political power.
Plus, as eliza mentioned, Draco without the influence of his parents is not the Draco of canon. Anything else is speculation, IMO.

That is true, but a character analysis thread, really, is all about speculation. If all we had to go on was canon, there would be nothing to discuss. The real point I was making was to distinguish Draco's nature from his learned behaviour, thus the hypothetical notion of what Draco could have been without his parents.

The lethality of the instruments is not universally acknowledged. They kill no one, and they are characterized by Dumbledore (see quote above) as not all that effectual. It was certainly not Draco's conscious, planned intent to kill Ron, Katie, or any person other than Dumbledore, nowhere in the text are we given any hint of such a thing. Their deaths are merely possible outcomes which fortunately do not materialize. As means to kill his target, I would have to agree with Albus - they were lame. :)

I personally, would compare these actions to Sirius's in the "prank" he played on Snape. His intent was, if we are charitable, to scare Snape. (This, anyway, is what he claims, just as Draco, we are told, is trying to kill Albus). That two people almost died was not intended. Nor do I think Draco intended to kill either Katie or Ron; I do not believe he had thought through the possible repercussions in the event the items did not reach Albus.

I think Dumbledore's statement to Draco pertained only to Dumbledore's opinion of whether or not the attempts would have been successful in killing Dumbledore. Here is what Dumbledore thought of Draco's actions:


"You don't know what I'm capable of," said Malfoy more forcefully. "You don't know what I've done!"

"Oh, yes, I do," said Dumbledore mildly. "You almost killed Katie Bell and Ronald Weasley. You have been trying, with increasing desperation, to kill me all year."



Dumbledore is quite clear in saying that Draco very nearly killed 2 students. While James pulled Snape out of the tunnel, he was not cursed or poisoned within an inch of his life. This is no prank. Whether or not they were Draco's original target, they do give a clear picture of someone who does not care if others die in the process.

One could of course argue that this was because Draco didn't believe he had another choice (as Dumbledore was trying to make him see); but it seems to clearly show that Draco was on the verge of turning a very dark corner. It was only luck, and perhaps the carefully crafted words of Dumbledore, that kept Draco from doing something he might always regret. His resultant behavior on the Tower shows his heart is not really in it, and if he could see an escape, he'd have taken it.