Draco Malfoy: Character Analysis

I don't think loving his parents is anything to say that Draco was not completely bad. Lucius loved his son, but had no problems doing something I personally consider completely evil to other peoples' children in CoS.

I wouldn't compare Draco and Lucius' choices myself. Lucius had joined Voldemort out of his own free will, besides he was an adult when he made the decision of eliminating mudbloods from the school. Draco on the other hand, was only sixteen when he joined Voldemort, and it was not with his own choice that he did. He thought it was a glory, because he considered it some sort of revenge upon those who put his father in prison. Later he realised it wasn't what Voldemort intended at all. Voldemort intended it to be a punishment; either he'd kill or be killed with his family. And since he'd been brought up to believe that Dumbledore is the 'worst headmaster' and a 'Mudblood lover', it's no wonder he didn't have trouble getting on with his schemes . It's only when Dumbledore offers to help him and his mother, that he realises Dumbledore means well and probably isn't a terrible man, as his parents brought him up to think. I think that's an important incident for him, because it (should have) made him realise his parents aren't always necessarily right.

He thought, I think that he would kill Dumbledore very easily and he would be The Man, in the eyes of the other Death Eaters. Draco only starts to regret things when he finds it harder to kill han he thought it would be. I do not feel sorry for him because he had a hard time murdering someone.

That's another delusion he was brought up to believe in. He must have seen how Lucius was praised after returning from some mission.
As for your other point, I think it's actually what makes all the difference. He realised he couldn't murder, how does that make him a bad person?

That is true, but a character analysis thread, really, is all about speculation. If all we had to go on was canon, there would be nothing to discuss.

Analysis is all about analysing and then interpreting the text. It is not about exploring hypothetical scenarios that have no textual basis. It's fine to speculate about things as long as they're somehow anchored in canon. At least that's what we're doing in literary analysis and here in LS. You're welcome to speculate about your particular what if scenario in The Wand: The Malfoy Family (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=114704).

As for your other point, I think it's actually what makes all the difference. He realised he couldn't murder, how does that make him a bad person?

I think I have serious doubts about Draco's overall goodness because he only found out he was not cut out to be a cold blooded killer after giving the cold blooded killing thing 2 really good tries. Two very close calls later he realizes it's not really a cake walk, then he opens up the school where he lives with hundreds of other students to a bunch of psychopathic murderers who can get the job done, and whom he knows just loves doing it. Especially Greyback. These are not the actions of someone who is filled with a love of humanity. I'm sorry Bella93, but IMO, Draco falls far short of human decency. Can someone who falls that short of basic decency be considered a good person? Can anyone who falls that short be considered anything else than a bad person?
Should Draco be condemned for the rest of his life for his actions as a 16 year old. I would not say so but I will be truthful, I don't see any sign of improvement in Draco the 17 year old. The only thing that you could say he did that was pro active was that he did not identify Harry at the Manor. That's it really. He didn't try to help them and he stood by while Bellatrix LeStrange tortured Hermione. He still can't kill personally but he still does not try to stop anybody from being killed by others. For me. Draco simply does not display any kind of moral growth at all. I wish I could believe that he would as he goes through the rest of his life, but I don't think so. I think Draco will remain the type of person who will always take the easy option that will benefit him, no matter what the consequences are for other people. The thought of someone like him actually working in the Ministry makes my blood run cold. The Ministry already had someone who worked for her own benefit only at the Ministry, Umbridge. Perhaps Draco would not be as bad as her, but with a little power, who knows?

Analysis is all about analysing and then interpreting the text. It is not about exploring hypothetical scenarios that have no textual basis. It's fine to speculate about things as long as they're somehow anchored in canon. At least that's what we're doing in literary analysis and here in LS.

Yes, that is exactly the sort of interpolation which I was trying to employ. Sorry if I worded it poorly.

Can someone who falls that short of basic decency be considered a good person? Can anyone who falls that short be considered anything else than a bad person?
I see what you're getting at, but I think his sixth year--the overall context--has some mitigating effect. What choice, ultimately, did Draco really have in this book? It's one thing to evaluate his actions, and I can't disagree with you about that, but there is more to the story after all.

I mean, we're repeatedly told that Draco is almost entirely isolated, it's implied that his safety and his family's safety hang in the balance, and it (his mission) turns out to be something he's not really capable of in the end. While the attempts with the necklace and the mead were extremely reckless and almost killed two innocent people, Dumbledore himself admits that he knew about Draco's mission yet did nothing to stop him because the consequences would have been severe.

I believe the entire scenario is designed to drive Draco to the brink of losing himself, and that the first time he realizes he has a choice at all is in the split second after he speaks with Dumbledore before the Death Eaters arrive. He's a victim of forces far greater than he is, and he's utterly unprepared to resist them. Ultimately I see a kid who recognizes the mortal consequences of his situation but doesn't know how to escape from it. It's not as simple as going to Voldemort and politely declining, after all. Shouldn't we give him at least some sympathy, even if his actions were deplorable?

[QUOTE=canismajoris;5724173]I see what you're getting at, I think his sixth year--the overall context--has some mitigating effect. What choice, ultimately, did Draco really have in this book? It's one thing to evaluate his actions, and I can't disagree with you about that, but there is more to the story after all.

Is there? That is not meant as a silly question. How much more is there to Draco's predicament? He has a choice, to attempt murder or not to attempt murder. That is Draco's predicament. I cannot feel sorry for him because in too many ways he got into that predicament because of his own choices.

I mean, we're repeatedly told that Draco is almost entirely isolated, it's implied that his safety and his family's safety hang in the balance, and it (his mission) turns out to be something he's not really capable of in the end. While the attempts with the necklace and the mead were extremely reckless and almost killed two innocent people, Dumbledore himself admits that he knew about Draco's mission yet did nothing to stop him because the consequences would have been severe.

Dumbledore never takes the safety of the children in his care lightly. In this case he is IMO wrong. Draco should have been stopped. I think Dumbledore underestimated Draco's determination to go through with the mission and he put other lives besides his in jeopardy. I think Dumbledore though was not at the top of his game. He was dying after all and he wanted to save Draco's soul. Notice I say soul, not Draco's life.
If Draco was so alone that was his own fault. He cultivated underlings not friends. You reap what you sow in life and Draco quite simply did not want friends like Ron and Hermione were with Harry. Again it comes back to choices. Draco chose his company, as did Harry. We see the results very plainly.

I believe the entire scenario is designed to drive Draco to the brink of losing himself, and that the first time he realizes he has a choice at all is in the split second after he speaks with Dumbledore before the Death Eaters arrive. He's a victim of forces far greater than he is, and he's utterly unprepared to resist them. Ultimately I see a kid who recognizes the mortal consequences of his situation but doesn't know how to escape from it. It's not as simple as going to Voldemort and politely declining, after all. Shouldn't we give him at least some sympathy, even if his actions were deplorable?

There are always choices. Draco didn't need Dumbledore to offer him a safe haven for himself and his family. That is not a choice between doing good and doing evil. It's dodging the issue. Draco's choice was very hard, it was the same choice Harry faced in the graveyard at the end of Goblet of Fire. Whether to stand up and fight evil, or crawl and submit to it. That IMO is the choice. I's not easy to say to yourself I will not commit murder no matter what threats are brought to bear on me. It takes strength of mind and purpose. Draco had neither. I can't find sympathy in my heart for Draco because he chose to try murder. It goes beyond deplorable IMO. Sympathy does not give Katie the months she spent in hospital back. It doesn't give Rosemerta her free will back and it doesn't change the fact that but for Harry's quick thinking Ron would have died. He would have died and that is what gets my sympathy, not Draco's pathetic whimpering that he was in a difficult position. If he didn't do this thing he and his family would be under threat from Voldemort. Welcome to the reality of the entire WW Draco, every single person in it was under threat of death if they didn't knuckle under to Voldemort. That was what Voldemort and his Death Eaters represented. A regime of death and repression. Every single Death Eater at least once in his life bought into that regime, they all came to the realization that they were included in the repressed. Draco got what he wanted, I do not pity him.

Should Draco be condemned for the rest of his life for his actions as a 16 year old. I would not say so but I will be truthful, I don't see any sign of improvement in Draco the 17 year old. The only thing that you could say he did that was pro active was that he did not identify Harry at the Manor. That's it really. He didn't try to help them and he stood by while Bellatrix LeStrange tortured Hermione. He still can't kill personally but he still does not try to stop anybody from being killed by others. For me. Draco simply does not display any kind of moral growth at all.

Sevnteen-years-old Draco was quite different, in my opinion. He is terrified of having to torture another person (I think it was Rowle), when the previous year he threw the Cruciatus Curse without hesitation at Harry. His reluctance showed and that's why Voldemort had ordered him to do it, at least that how I read that scene (I don't know for what other reason JKR could've added it, except to show that Draco was changing/trying to change, but can't really do it). As for the incident at Malfoy Manor with the Trio, honestly what could he have done? Tell Bellatrix to step aside, and leave Hermione alone? Let the prisoners escape the cell? Lie and say it isn't Harry, when a hundred other people could recognise him? It's shown that he doesn't react the same way as his father (with glee and excitement) when Lucius realised they had a chance of exchanging Harry and the others, for Voldemort's favour. Draco isn't the bravest of people and he wasn't fully changed at heart yet (but he'd definitely changed, in my opinion), so I don't think he could've spoken his mind in front of Bella or even his parents. His silence was the only thing he could offer the trio.

Is there? That is not meant as a silly question. How much more is there to Draco's predicament? He has a choice, to attempt murder or not to attempt murder.

Well, sure, but we don't condemn members of the military for their "choice" to murder during the world wars, because the circumstances made it inevitable. As canismajoris says, there is so much more to consider. Saying that Draco's choice was a simple matter of kill or don't kill is a humongous over-simplification, in my opinion. It would be similar to saying that all army members in WWII were faced with the same decision, and condemning them for their choice if they fought for their country.

There are always choices. Draco didn't need Dumbledore to offer him a safe haven for himself and his family. That is not a choice between doing good and doing evil. It's dodging the issue. Draco's choice was very hard, it was the same choice Harry faced in the graveyard at the end of Goblet of Fire.

In this regard, Draco's choice was quite different from Harry's. Harry's choice was to either die whimpering or die fighting. There was no option to crumble and join Voldemort- in fact, there was no option to live at all. His decision was simply how he wanted to die.

In Draco's case, his decision was to allow his family to die, and quite possibly himself as well, or else kill a man for whom he had little respect and quite a bit of contempt. In my opinion, it is not much of a choice. If it must be considered a choice, though, I don't think that Draco can really be condemned for what he chose. The decision to survive is animal instinct, and to be more willing to throw away his life for the greater good than to survive is absolutely not the typical standard for a boy his age, as much as Harry may skew our perception.

Well, sure, but we don't condemn members of the military for their "choice" to murder during the world wars, because the circumstances made it inevitable. As canismajoris says, there is so much more to consider. Saying that Draco's choice was a simple matter of kill or don't kill is a humongous over-simplification, in my opinion. It would be similar to saying that all army members in WWII were faced with the same decision, and condemning them for their choice if they fought for their country.

I agree that Draco's choice was more complex that 'kill or don't'. There was 'restore the family's honour or see them fall into greater humiliation'. There was (eventually) 'kill Dumbledore before Voldemort kills you'. There was 'stand up for what you have always been taught is right or turn your back on what your family has always stood for'.

In this regard, Draco's choice was quite different from Harry's. Harry's choice was to either die whimpering or die fighting. There was no option to crumble and join Voldemort- in fact, there was no option to live at all. His decision was simply how he wanted to die.

In Draco's case, his decision was to allow his family to die, and quite possibly himself as well, or else kill a man for whom he had little respect and quite a bit of contempt. In my opinion, it is not much of a choice. If it must be considered a choice, though, I don't think that Draco can really be condemned for what he chose. The decision to survive is animal instinct, and to be more willing to throw away his life for the greater good than to survive is absolutely not the typical standard for a boy his age, as much as Harry may skew our perception.

Looking at Draco's upbringing, I can't see anything that would have given him the strength of character to withstand Voldemort. Harry had been persecuted by his relatives for as long as he could remember and this had developed in him terrific strength of character. Draco had been indulged from birth and had never had to stand up for himself, that I can remember. Any difficulty had been resolved through Lucius' money or influence. IMO for Draco to have had the strength to turn against Voldemort, turn against his own family, put other people's safety above his own, would have been such a huge change in the Draco we had known for 5 books as to be incredible.

Okay, things need to cool down in here. It is never okay to character bash on this forum. Making statements about a character as though they were fact when they are your opinion is never allowed here.

Posts have been deleted. If behavior doesn't improve, individuals and possibly the thread as a whole will get a nice little spring break of its own.

In Draco's case, his decision was to allow his family to die, and quite possibly himself as well, or else kill a man for whom he had little respect and quite a bit of contempt.

It may seem easier when you put it that way, but killing is never easy, no matter how important it is for you and your family. Draco was in a tough spot because of his father's doings and not his own. He was a school bully and nothing more. Voldemort put him on the stand only to get back to his father, assuming he failed. Now that we have the whole story out it open, I don't think it panned out so badly for him after all, atleast not as bad as you project it to be. He and his family were just under house arrest.

I know this was not so apparent in HBP when Draco felt the actual threat, but don't you think that Draco could have over played the imminent threat. I mean after all he was in such a slippery slope that it is easy to magnify such dangers. After all its only his word that says that he would be killed if he failed. Narcissa doesn't say the same, rather she says that Voldemort hopes he would die trying. Here again we see that they (either Narcissa or Voldemort or both) are assuming that Draco would be killed if found out.

So in my opinion, Draco was just so frightened that he overplayed the fear that drove him to believing that there was no other way out. He didn't expect to get help from anyone, and took it that he was alone in this all (initially it was pride that got the maverick in him, later it was despair). With all this motivation he succeeded in smuggling the DEs into the castle, but when it came to the task of killing Dumbledore, I think it was Dumbledore cool and calm attitude and the alluring offer that dissuaded him from killing Dumbledore instantly. Had Snape not appeared, he might have gone on with the task with other Death Eaters egging him on and forcing him, but we can never know. :)

It may seem easier when you put it that way, but killing is never easy, no matter how important it is for you and your family. Draco was in a tough spot because of his father's doings and not his own. He was a school bully and nothing more. Voldemort put him on the stand only to get back to his father, assuming he failed. Now that we have the whole story out it open, I don't think it panned out so badly for him after all, atleast not as bad as you project it to be. He and his family were just under house arrest.

Sorry, I should have said "or try to kill." Truly, Draco had yet to find out how difficult it would be in the end to actually do the killing, both from the standpoint of actually getting to DD, and in terms of emotional difficulty.

I project it to be much worse than house arrest, because I believe it is. I think that, based on what we know of Voldemort and the fact that he was said to be extremely angry at the time, Draco was reasonable to assume that his life was on the line. I don't think one can simply turn down a job offer from Voldemort, and I don't think that Voldemort would go easy on his parents if Draco defected.

I wouldn't compare Draco and Lucius' choices myself. Lucius had joined Voldemort out of his own free will, besides he was an adult when he made the decision of eliminating mudbloods from the school. Draco on the other hand, was only sixteen when he joined Voldemort, and it was not with his own choice that he did.

I don't think Draco was as bad as Lucius. I don't think he had the same edge of evil as I believe Lucius had. My point was that loving someone does not make a person good. I was making the comparison with how, despite loving his son, Lucius was able to put other people's kids in mortal peril without a qualm. Draco loved his parents, doing so does not mean he is a good person, IMO.

It's only when Dumbledore offers to help him and his mother, that he realises Dumbledore means well and probably isn't a terrible man, as his parents brought him up to think. I think that's an important incident for him, because it (should have) made him realise his parents aren't always necessarily right.

I think perhaps this experience did prompt Draco to see that the world wasn't exactly as his parents had painted it. IMO, perhaps his experiences in HBP and DH prevented Draco from growing into another Lucius. He was far from being a good person, IMO, but after his experiences, Draco would not ruthlessly pursue the destruction of other human beings as his father did, because he saw at sixteen/seventeen exactly what his glorious Dark Lord was really like. He saw what it was like to be on the receiving end of such a person's methods, so maybe there's a chance that it pressed him into developing a tiny bit of empathy. Or, at the very least, he would perhaps stay away from such things out of self-preservation.

That's another delusion he was brought up to believe in. He must have seen how Lucius was praised after returning from some mission.

I don't think so, Draco was only about a year old when Voldemort first fell. Lucius couldn't have gotten praise for missions in OotP because the DEs were staying low-profile.

I see what you're getting at, but I think his sixth year--the overall context--has some mitigating effect. What choice, ultimately, did Draco really have in this book? It's one thing to evaluate his actions, and I can't disagree with you about that, but there is more to the story after all.

Choices are an important theme in HP, IMO. With that in mind, I find it strange that DEs like Draco had no choice or no chance to be anything else. Where is Draco's responsibility for his own misdeeds if it's all passed off on his upbringing or on the consequences of following a murderer?

Well, sure, but we don't condemn members of the military for their "choice" to murder during the world wars, because the circumstances made it inevitable. As canismajoris says, there is so much more to consider. Saying that Draco's choice was a simple matter of kill or don't kill is a humongous over-simplification, in my opinion. It would be similar to saying that all army members in WWII were faced with the same decision, and condemning them for their choice if they fought for their country.

IMO, there is a difference between a soldier killing another soldier in a just war and a terrorist murdering people/attempting murder.

The decision to survive is animal instinct, and to be more willing to throw away his life for the greater good than to survive is absolutely not the typical standard for a boy his age, as much as Harry may skew our perception.

While I agree that Harry is exceptional in that regard, I think there were many other young people who chose what was right over what was easy - Ron and Hermione, Dumbledore's Army - all chose to fight against Voldemort and his followers, risking their lives in the process. Ginny, Neville and Luna spent the better part of a school year defying the Carrows, at their own risk.

IMO, there is a difference between a soldier killing another soldier in a just war and a terrorist murdering people/attempting murder.

But how do you define a just war? Dumbledore was just another soldier (a general, I guess) in the war between Voldemort and the Order. It seems to me that if it was clear cut about which side was a just cause and which wasn't, wars would not be fought. Draco had been brought up to believe his cause was just.

While I agree that Harry is exceptional in that regard, I think there were many other young people who chose what was right over what was easy - Ron and Hermione, Dumbledore's Army - all chose to fight against Voldemort and his followers, risking their lives in the process. Ginny, Neville and Luna spent the better part of a school year defying the Carrows, at their own risk.

That is true. I am not trying to say that Malfoy was particularly selfless, just that not being willing to sacrifice oneself for a just cause is not equivalent to being against the cause. As arithmancer talked about in the trial thread, are we going to call Xenophilius an unforgivable soul for his actions in attempting to turn Harry over to Voldemort? Does it mean, because he was not willing to sacrifice a daughter and himself for Harry's cause, that he was aligned against Harry? I think not.

But how do you define a just war? Dumbledore was just another soldier (a general, I guess) in the war between Voldemort and the Order. It seems to me that if it was clear cut about which side was a just cause and which wasn't, wars would not be fought. Draco had been brought up to believe his cause was just.

That is a point, but I see a difference between soldiers killing each other, and innocent people getting caught in the crossfire, relegated to being considered collateral damage, like Ron, Katie and Madam Rosmerta.

That is true. I am not trying to say that Malfoy was particularly selfless, just that not being willing to sacrifice oneself for a just cause is not equivalent to being against the cause. As arithmancer talked about in the trial thread, are we going to call Xenophilius an unforgivable soul for his actions in attempting to turn Harry over to Voldemort? Does it mean, because he was not willing to sacrifice a daughter and himself for Harry's cause, that he was aligned against Harry? I think not.


I think there is a difference between Draco and Xenophilius - Draco supported the evil of the DEs until he found out what it was like to be in Voldemort's bad books. Xenophilius opposed the DEs until his family was in jeopardy. Draco supported the DEs without coercion, Xeno did not.

I project it to be much worse than house arrest, because I believe it is. I think that, based on what we know of Voldemort and the fact that he was said to be extremely angry at the time, Draco was reasonable to assume that his life was on the line. I don't think one can simply turn down a job offer from Voldemort, and I don't think that Voldemort would go easy on his parents if Draco defected.

Another character who thought it was reasonable that Draco feared for his life, was Albus. He explained he held back from contacting Draco about his mission all year because he knew Voldemort would kill Draco if he thought Dumbledore suspected him.

I know this was not so apparent in HBP when Draco felt the actual threat, but don't you think that Draco could have over played the imminent threat. I mean after all he was in such a slippery slope that it is easy to magnify such dangers. After all its only his word that says that he would be killed if he failed. Narcissa doesn't say the same, rather she says that Voldemort hopes he would die trying. Here again we see that they (either Narcissa or Voldemort or both) are assuming that Draco would be killed if found out.

Albus concurs with Draco's assessment. I also suspect Narcissa early in HBP may be thinking more of the threat to Draco than the threat to herself, rather than is speaking out of a rational belief that she herself is completely safe.

That is a point, but I see a difference between soldiers killing each other, and innocent people getting caught in the crossfire, relegated to being considered collateral damage, like Ron, Katie and Madam Rosmerta.

Sure, but we were discussing one thing here, being Ron's decision to kill Dumbledore. That was a matter of following orders pertaining to a war. Draco never made a decision to kill Ron or Katie or Rosmerta, nor did he even ever make a decision to put them at risk to be killed, in my opinion, as I discussed before.

I think there is a difference between Draco and Xenophilius - Draco supported the evil of the DEs until he found out what it was like to be in Voldemort's bad books. Xenophilius opposed the DEs until his family was in jeopardy. Draco supported the DEs without coercion, Xeno did not.

True, the comparison is really just restricted to the fact that while both may have had scruples with that which they were being made to do, circumstances were such that they felt compelled to try to do such things anyway. The point to take out of all this is that even decent people are prone to do bad things in order to save significant others, and indeed themselves, so Draco's decision to try killing Dumbledore is not enough to prove Draco as at base an indecent person.

Choices are an important theme in HP, IMO. With that in mind, I find it strange that DEs like Draco had no choice or no chance to be anything else. Where is Draco's responsibility for his own misdeeds if it's all passed off on his upbringing or on the consequences of following a murderer?

I think here it's more the result of Draco's parents' choices we see and we see Draco paying the price for it. Both in character as in "choices" he doesn't see a way out of.

My point was that loving someone does not make a person good. I was making the comparison with how, despite loving his son, Lucius was able to put other people's kids in mortal peril without a qualm. Draco loved his parents, doing so does not mean he is a good person, IMO.

Love is another major theme in the HP series. On the tower we see that Draco's driving force was no longer glory (despite his bragging about it), it's his fear for the family he loves. Still, he hesitates and doesn't take an action, he considers the choices Dumbledore offers him (I think that msut have been the first time he's actually been offered choices and allowed to choose).

Choices are an important theme in HP, IMO. With that in mind, I find it strange that DEs like Draco had no choice or no chance to be anything else. Where is Draco's responsibility for his own misdeeds if it's all passed off on his upbringing or on the consequences of following a murderer?

I really can't think of many choices in Draco's case. He couldn't really refuse Voldemort's 'offer' of branding him with the Dark Mark. I can't see him excusing himself from Voldemort's mission. True he gets into it yearning for the glory and honour of it, but I don't see why his realising the truth of it, shouldn't be taken into account, and when he realises what his mission means, he also realises that he doesn't have any choices -other than murdering or having his family murdered.

I think the blame lies on Lucius and Narcissa's shoulders, just like the blame of Dudely growing up, his width the same as his height, or his beating and knocking out ten years-old children of the neighbourhood, lies on Petunia and Vernon's shoulders. During the war, I think Narcissa and Lucius are responsible for what their child had to go through, and commit to keep them alive. After the war, and after seeing the war through his own eyes, I guess Draco should be fully responsible for actions.

The war has changed a lot of characters in the series and taught them different things, Neville, Percy, Kreacher, the Centuars are some examples. I don't think Draco is any different, :shrug:.

I think the blame lies on Lucius and Narcissa's shoulders, just like the blame of Dudely growing up, his width the same as his height, or his beating and knocking out ten years-old children of the neighbourhood, lies on Petunia and Vernon's shoulders. During the war, I think Narcissa and Lucius are responsible for what their child had to go through, and commit to keep them alive. After the war, and after seeing the war through his own eyes, I guess Draco should be fully responsible for actions.


Except Dudley changed and became a better person all on his own. His parents didn't change but Dudley did because he realised what he was and he didn't like it.

It took a dementor to do that for Dudley but Draco also experienced the affects of a dementor and that did nothing for Draco. Dudley changed because deep down he wanted to change. Draco didn't change because he was happy with who he was.

It took a dementor to do that for Dudley but Draco also experienced the affects of a dementor and that did nothing for Draco. Dudley changed because deep down he wanted to change. Draco didn't change because he was happy with who he was.

Both Draco and Dudley went through difficult experiences that allowed them to see the world in a different way than the one they'd been brought up to see. We see the changes in Dudley after two years of this experience, which is a reasonable amount of time considering that he had to do it on his own, without his parents guidance (something he always depended on).

Harry only gets one glimpse of Draco after the war, hours after Voldemort's defeat. In my opinion it doesn't really give insight about Post-war Draco. So I'm curious where you get the information that he likes the way he is, and that he doesn't change? Any change in him would have to take its time, he has to realise his own mistakes, the peril he'd been through, the reason behind these things (his family's ideology) and then figure out a way to change that, without his family's support -something he always depended on. I don't really expect Draco to turn into a muggle/muggle-born lover, but I think he must realise that people have more to them than their birth. That it's not blood-status that defines people, but the choices they make.

This is my take on Draco after the war. Based on the little changes in his character in book 6 and 7, I believe others must have followed, especially that I can't think of anything in canon that says otherwise.

Except Dudley changed and became a better person all on his own. His parents didn't change but Dudley did because he realised what he was and he didn't like it.

It took a dementor to do that for Dudley but Draco also experienced the affects of a dementor and that did nothing for Draco. Dudley changed because deep down he wanted to change. Draco didn't change because he was happy with who he was.

I'm not so sure that deep down Dudley wanted to change - everything in his life up to the Dementor had been pretty much what he wanted. But after the Dementor he began to see things differently. I agree that Draco didn't change because he was happy with who he was. I don't think the Dementor on the train would have affected him as much as Dudley was affected because Dudley was attacked individually, Draco was just part of a mass experience.

Up to HBP I can't see anything happening in Draco's life to persuade him that any change was necessary. His home life had been comfortable, he was sorted into Slytherin where his friends were of the same opinions as himself and his House Master appeared to support the Malfoy philosophy too. Whenever things became difficult for him he was able to rely on his father's influence and prestige to get him out of it. I think the changes for Draco began when his father was put in Azkaban and for the first time in his life he no longer had that support and protection available to him.

From HBP onwards, Draco had to step into his father's shoes and I think he found they didn't really fit. Would Lucius have had a problem with killing Dumbledore? IMO, not. But Draco did and I think it shows a tiny thread of decency in him that isn't there in his father. Set against his traits of cowardice, selfishness, sense of superiority, desire to bully people and bigoted attitudes to those he considered inferior, it's not much of a redeeming feature, but it does seem to be there.

Several people in the past two pages have asserted without explanation, that Draco is a coward, or cowardly. I am curious what they mean by this, and on what they base this opinion.

I have to say I do not find him so. I can think of instances in which he was in a genuinely frightening situation, in which he did not exhibit steadfast courage (such as the detention in the Forest in CoS, where Harry too was scared, but his fear froze him in place, or the Hogsmeade haunting incident of PoA), but there seems to me a world of difference between that and being a coward. There are also instances of Draco acting in the face of great danger to himself, such as his attempt to rescue Goyle from the Fiendfyre.

Several people in the past two pages have asserted without explanation, that Draco is a coward, or cowardly. I am curious what they mean by this, and on what they base this opinion.

I have to say I do not find him so. I can think of instances in which he was in a genuinely frightening situation, in which he did not exhibit steadfast courage (such as the detention in the Forest in CoS, where Harry too was scared, but his fear froze him in place, or the Hogsmeade haunting incident of PoA), but there seems to me a world of difference between that and being a coward. There are also instances of Draco acting in the face of great danger to himself, such as his attempt to rescue Goyle from the Fiendfyre.

IMO, the poisoned mead and cursed necklace are cowardly acts - trying to murder someone without having the guts to look them in the eye as you do so - it's like someone who plants a bomb under a car or in a building, IMO.

Draco striking when Harry's back is turned in GoF is cowardly, IMO - another instance of being unable to face an opponent properly. As are all the incidences where he tries to provoke Harry and Ron when he knows Snape is there, and they cannot retaliate.

As for the detention in PS/SS - I think it was cowardice, he thought solely of himself, and did not think to drag another student away as he ran. IMO, courage is not the absence of fear, but what one does in the face of fear.

The Fiendfyre seems to be the only instance of courage Draco displayed in the series, IMO.

There are also instances of Draco acting in the face of great danger to himself, such as his attempt to rescue Goyle from the Fiendfyre.
I don't view Draco's actions in the Room of Requirement as courageous. Draco wasn't rescuing Goyle, he was trapped with him by the fiendfyre. Harry and Ron were the courageous ones. Here's the quote from DH:


Harry could not see a trace of Malfoy, Crabbe or Goyle anywhere. He swooped as low as he dared over the marauding monsters of flame to try to find them, but there was nothing but fire: What a terrible way to die...He had never wanted this...

"Harry, let's get out, let's get out!" bellowed Ron, though it was impossible to see where the door was in the black smoke.

And then Harry heard a thin, piteous human scream from amidst the terrible commotion, the thunder of devouring flame.

"It's---too---dangerous!" Ron yelled, but Harry wheeled in the air. His glasses giving his eyes some small protection from the smoke, he raked the firestorm below, seeking a sign of life, a limb or a face that was not yet charred like wood....

And then he saw them: Malfoy with his arms around the unconscious Goyle, the pair of them perched on a fragile tower of charred desks, and Harry dived. Malfoy saw him coming and raised one arm, but even as Harry grasped it he knew at once that it was no good: Goyle was too heavy and Malfoy's hand, covered in sweat, slid instantly out of Harry's --

"IF WE DIE FOR THEM, I'LL KILL YOU, HARRY!" roared Ron's voice, and, as a great flaming chimaera bore down upon them, he and Hermione dragged Goyle onto their broom and rose, rolling and pitching, into the air once more as Malfoy clambered up behind Harry.


So Draco wasn't rescuing, he was stuck. I'll give him this, though -- he was loyal and didn't abandon Goyle....of course, it didn't look like there was a way out on foot, either. Draco did bother to ask about Crabbe after they exited the ROR, so it appears he did care what happened to his friends.

IMO, the poisoned mead and cursed necklace are cowardly acts - trying to murder someone without having the guts to look them in the eye as you do so - it's like someone who plants a bomb under a car or in a building, IMO.

I don't think they were cowardly acts, because I don't expect Draco to knock on the Headmaster's office and challenge Dumbledore to a duel :yuhup:. Voldemort intended that Draco should die, but I guess Draco did not. He intended to succeed at his mission and he had to act and plan carefully. That's how his actions looked like to me, carefully thought out, but not cowardly.

Still, I don't think Draco was a courageous person. Courage is something people develop throughout their life, and Draco's life never offered him such chances, not before he was too old to acquire it.

Courage is something people develop throughout their life, and Draco's life never offered him such chances, not before he was too old to acquire it.
And really, to me "courage" (as it appears in HP books anyway) is usually more akin to "blind recklessness."

And really, to me "courage" (as it appears in HP books anyway) is usually more akin to "blind recklessness."

The first example that comes to my mind is Neville standing up to his friends in PS, for which he was rewarded by Dumbledore. Thus I would beg to differ.

I always thought of Draco as a coward, too, because he was absolutely fine with people he deemed unworthy of living dying left and right as long as he didn't have to hold the wand. He's a bit of a sofa racist, if that makes sense.

And really, to me "courage" (as it appears in HP books anyway) is usually more akin to "blind recklessness."

In the series, I thought it's mainly about putting other people ahead of yourself, in danger. That's probably a strong reason why Slytherins (and Draco in particular) are thought of badly, because 'given the chance, they'll always choose to save their own necks'. But I think most people are like that even if they won't actually admit it.

In the series, I thought it's mainly about putting other people ahead of yourself, in danger. That's probably a strong reason why Slytherins (and Draco in particular) are thought of badly, because 'given the chance, they'll always choose to save their own necks'. But I think most people are like that even if they won't actually admit it.

This is very true. Selfishness is pretty much universal. But Draco went a little further, in my view. As I see it, he actively sought to hurt other characters. He just didn't want to be held responsible for causing them harm. All in all, also a very human but not very attractive reaction. It's one thing to say 'it wasn't me' if one is in a tight spot but another to actively try to get others in trouble and then try to wash one's hands in innocence. The whole affair with Norbert comes to mind here.

In the series, I thought it's mainly about putting other people ahead of yourself, in danger. That's probably a strong reason why Slytherins (and Draco in particular) are thought of badly, because 'given the chance, they'll always choose to save their own necks'. But I think most people are like that even if they won't actually admit it.
This is very true. Selfishness is pretty much universal. But Draco went a little further, in my view. As I see it, he actively sought to hurt other characters. He just didn't want to be held responsible for causing them harm. All in all, also a very human but not very attractive reaction. It's one thing to say 'it wasn't me' if one is in a tight spot but another to actively try to get others in trouble and then try to wash one's hands in innocence. The whole affair with Norbert comes to mind here.

The thing is, though, that in DH Draco is shown to be someone who can put other people ahead of himself. He is shown in the Room or Requirement to make, and persist in, a choice to save Goyle from the Fiendfyre even though this places Draco at greater risk.

I don't view Draco's actions in the Room of Requirement as courageous. Draco wasn't rescuing Goyle, he was trapped with him by the fiendfyre. Harry and Ron were the courageous ones. Here's the quote from DH:

2-3 pages before the citation you give, it is explained how Draco came to be trapped with Goyle in the first place. :)

When Crabbe first cast the Fiendfyre, Goyle was lying unconscious, having been Stunned by Hermione. The others all fled. Draco picked Goyle up and dragged him along, eventually (we may deduce) climbing onto the pile of desks and pulling Goyle (still unconscious even then) up with him.

A roaring, billowing noise behind him gave him a moment’s warning. He turned and saw both Ron and Crabbe running as hard as they could up the aisle toward them.

“Like it hot, scum?” roared Crabbe as he ran.

But he seemed to have no control over what he had done. Flames of abnormal size were pursuing them, licking up the sides of the junk bulwarks, which were crumbling to soot at their touch.

“Aguamenti!” Harry bawled, but the jet of water that soared
from the tip of his wand evaporated in the air.

“RUN!”

Malfoy grabbed the Stunned Goyle and dragged him along; Crabbe outstripped all of them, now looking terrified; Harry, Ron, and Hermione pelted along in his wake, and the fire pursued them.

IMO, the poisoned mead and cursed necklace are cowardly acts - trying to murder someone without having the guts to look them in the eye as you do so - it's like someone who plants a bomb under a car or in a building, IMO.

I honestly do not think killing face-to-face has anything to do with courage (or cowardice, for that matter).

It's one thing to say 'it wasn't me' if one is in a tight spot but another to actively try to get others in trouble and then try to wash one's hands in innocence. The whole affair with Norbert comes to mind here.

They're what? All of 11 there?
Damned right the kids of that age will try to frame each other and/or wiggle out of consequences! Even my resident Hufflepuff has been displaying some decidedly Slytherin traits in schoolyard schisms... :lol:


Problem is, from this perspective (reads: "age" :p) I can't really see anyone's actions before book 4 as anything but reflections of adult influence and/or circumstances. What bothers me is that we never see Draco examining any part of the beliefs he acts on, even when the exact opposite starts waving its hands in his face (cue Granger) - he just keeps parroting the same things over and over again... until they turn around and bite him in the ar... ahem, arithmancy and ancient runes. :whistle:

IMO, that doesn't make him a coward or beyond redemption... just plain stupid. http://www.smilies-and-more.de/pics/smilies/tired/018.gif

I honestly do not think killing face-to-face has anything to do with courage (or cowardice, for that matter).

Indeed not, unless it is something you really don't want to do.

[QUOTE=Daggerstone;5726759]I honestly do not think killing face-to-face has anything to do with courage (or cowardice, for that matter).

I think trying to murder someone from a distance, like with the poison and the cursed necklace is cowardly. It's trying to gain something from taking someone's life without being man or woman enough to look the person in the eye and see first hand what you're doing. It's like kidding oneself that they're somehow less responsible if they're not there when the victim drinks the poison. That is something I find cowardly.


Problem is, from this perspective (reads: "age" :p) I can't really see anyone's actions before book 4 as anything but reflections of adult influence and/or circumstances.

Out of curiosity, would you apply that to every character, or just Draco?

What bothers me is that we never see Draco examining any part of the beliefs he acts on, even when the exact opposite starts waving its hands in his face (cue Granger) - he just keeps parroting the same things over and over again... until they turn around and bite him in the ar... ahem, arithmancy and ancient runes. :whistle:

IMO, that doesn't make him a coward or beyond redemption... just plain stupid.

I think Draco was relatively smart in some ways, and fairly unintelligent in others. I don't think refusing to question the bigotry was stupidity. I think it was plain and simply because it made him feel important - pureblood superiority was a doctrine that told him he was innately superior to people like Hermione, among others. He didn't have to do anything to earn it, he didn't have to work hard or get better grades. He just was superior, because of his blood line, according to his prejudiced theories. He wasn't going to question that, IMO, because Draco seems spoiled, and seems too used to getting what he wants without having to earn it.

I think trying to murder someone from a distance, like with the poison and the cursed necklace is cowardly. It's trying to gain something from taking someone's life without being man or woman enough to look the person in the eye and see first hand what you're doing. It's like kidding oneself that they're somehow less responsible if they're not there when the victim drinks the poison. That is something I find cowardly.

Is it? I would say yes in the case of Draco Malfoy, but not in all cases.

Here is the thing; if you find it to be cowardly, it must be because it is seen as a way to get around something which he would rather not do, or a way to do something without having to face something uncomfortable. If so, than it would appear to me that he found something uncomfortable about killing, which only goes to prove the point that Draco was not, by nature, a killer.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

Yes, I think she did.



2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.

I think he expects his son to be like him, meaning his same beliefs.



3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

I think some of both, to be honest. I mean the own volition due to he has that hatred already. The fear due to fearing that Voldemort would kill them if he didn't, if your referring to the mission to kill Dumbledore.



4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.

I think he also just likes to boast, like the I am better than you attitude.



5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?

I think he is just plain mean. But I wouldnt have it any other way, I like Draco mean, it's how he is supposed to be :)



6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?

I really don't know, but he should continue to be on the dark/evil side.



7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.

I don't think it will, I just cant see him ever liking them, Lucius would die if he did. I think the curt nod was empty and meant nothing, I mean Lucius "spoke" to the good side people just for a cover up.



8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?

I think he should remain on the dark side in secret, like following in Lucius' footsteps. I think he would work in the Ministry of Magic, like his dad did. And the wife in the epilogue is Astoria Greengrass, well Astoria Malfoy then, JKR revealed that in an interview and it's on the always correct harry wikipedia.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?
Yes, I guess. Giving him a father who was a Death Eater, after all. But I really didn't see it at first. It was a bit odd, I thought he was trying to be friends with Harry, even in a boastful way. Harry clearly was shabby-looking when they first met, if Draco was really a snob, why'd he bother talking to him, really?

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.
I think this is what led Draco to being ambitious and too proving. He wanted his father and mother to be proud of him.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?
I think it is mostly fear, but he tries his best to act or boast that is his own choice and what he really wants.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.
I don't see how this is a question. But I'm going to reply because I love his relationship with Harry, ehem. I think that was one of realizations, that he can't really buy true friends. And having a boastful attitude does not really get you that far with other people.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?
Misunderstood, forever what I'll think.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?
I don't think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore. Obviously he doesn't really supports Voldemort, in my opinion. He's just scared that if he turns against him, his parents will be in mortal jeopardy.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.
By curtly nodding. Jk. I don't really know. I guess he wouldn't speak ill to them or something.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?
Pansy is not the wife in the epilogue. I was a bit upset. At first, I thought it was just because JK hates her. But I looked deep enough, and I made my own reason.
We last saw Pansy, obviously wanting to give Harry away, which probably means she is okay with the injustice that has be happening with Voldemort's reign. Pansy, being part of Draco's childhood or adolescent that, in my opinion, Draco wanted to run away from. He didn't want to look back and see all of the wrong choices he made. Because if he didn't regret all the things he did, if he would look at Harry, Ron, Hermione, & Ginny, he wouldn't nod at them. He would probably sneer at their faces, or ignore them. He addressed them, didn't he? It wasn't really friendly, but it was still minding them... I think being Draco, nodding, is a sly way of saying thank you.

But that's just my opinion about this man. ;)

Is it? I would say yes in the case of Draco Malfoy, but not in all cases.

Here is the thing; if you find it to be cowardly, it must be because it is seen as a way to get around something which he would rather not do, or a way to do something without having to face something uncomfortable. If so, than it would appear to me that he found something uncomfortable about killing, which only goes to prove the point that Draco was not, by nature, a killer.

I think it is cowardly because if you try to kill a powerfull wizard like Dumbledore you are in big trouble. Darco didn't want to be in big trouble, he wanted to be the Biggest of the Big Death Eaters who had managed to kill Dumbledore. Being the stupid little schoolkid who did not manage to kill Dumbledore would not have impressed the other Big Death Eaters. Hence the attempts to kill Dumbledore without personal risk to his own precious body.

I think it is cowardly because if you try to kill a powerfull wizard like Dumbledore you are in big trouble. Darco didn't want to be in big trouble, he wanted to be the Biggest of the Big Death Eaters who had managed to kill Dumbledore. Being the stupid little schoolkid who did not manage to kill Dumbledore would not have impressed the other Big Death Eaters. Hence the attempts to kill Dumbledore without personal risk to his own precious body.

Draco certainly didn't want to be in big trouble, but I don't think he wanted to be the "Big Death Eater that killed Dumbledore" either. In HBP, we see him crying as he realizes that the job is too hard, and I think that he definitely regrets having to kill Dumbledore.
Also, i don't think it was cowardly to try to kill Dumbledore with his 'round-about' methods. As someone stated previously, he couldn't very well simply waltz into Dumledore's office. He needed to kill Dumbledore covertly, and the mead and necklace were what he came up with.

Draco certainly didn't want to be in big trouble, but I don't think he wanted to be the "Big Death Eater that killed Dumbledore" either. In HBP, we see him crying as he realizes that the job is too hard, and I think that he definitely regrets having to kill Dumbledore.

My feeling was that Draco was initially excited about being given a task by Voldemort. His mother was worried about him but I don't think Draco was too concerned because he thought he had a good plan that should work if only he could fix the cabinet. Once he realised how hard it was to mend the cabinet he began to panic and tried the necklace and mead. I thnk that by this time he was starting to regret having got so deep into DE activity. I don't think that he was regretting having to kill Dumbledore so much as the fact that he wasn't able to do it and he was scared.

Also, i don't think it was cowardly to try to kill Dumbledore with his 'round-about' methods. As someone stated previously, he couldn't very well simply waltz into Dumledore's office. He needed to kill Dumbledore covertly, and the mead and necklace were what he came up with.

Well, I agree he couldn't just wander up to Dumbledore and AK him. His plan throughout the year had been to get the cabinets working. Exactly what he intended once he had got the DEs into Hogwarts I've never been sure. The DEs all seemed to think that Draco would have to do the killing himself. Whether Draco had actually thought about that, and whether he could kill in cold blood I don't know. When he did come face to face with Albus, we know he didn't seem able to go through with it, but whether that was because he wasn't a killer, or because Dumbledore talked him down, or because he'd worked himself up into a state, it's hard to tell.

His 'round about methods' have an edge of cowardice IMO because he wasn't having to face Dumbledore - a bit like him trying to curse Harry when his back was turned (when Moody converted him to a ferret). I know he was getting desperate when he sent the necklace and mead, and was trying anything that might remotely work, but the fact that others got seriously hurt and could have been killed didn't seem to put him off. His first priority was the saving of his own skin, and that's not exactly courageous, I don't think. Natural perhaps but not brave.

I think the reason why he tried to kill Dumbledore, while he wasn't there, was both cowardly and courageous, oddly. It wasn't something he really wanted to do, but it was something he needed to do, for his life. I'm not sure if he really wanted to be a Death Eater with the title of Killing the guy Voldemort killed. I'm sure it was also something to redeem his father from shame, honestly. He's heart wasn't fit on killing, just as Dumbledore said, so he was scared to kill him face-to-face because he is scared of the idea that he had killed someone too, I think.

I think the reason why he tried to kill Dumbledore, while he wasn't there, was both cowardly and courageous, oddly. It wasn't something he really wanted to do, but it was something he needed to do, for his life. I'm not sure if he really wanted to be a Death Eater with the title of Killing the guy Voldemort killed. I'm sure it was also something to redeem his father from shame, honestly. He's heart wasn't fit on killing, just as Dumbledore said, so he was scared to kill him face-to-face because he is scared of the idea that he had killed someone too, I think.

I don't think there is anything courageous about trying to kill someone else to save your own life.

I don't think there is anything courageous about trying to kill someone else to save your own life.

Well, it wasn't just his life, but also his family's; to also prove himself to Voldemort. It wasn't really good courage, I guess.

Really, what would have been 'courageous' would have been saying, "No, I won't do it." and being killed. I think Malfoy made his own choice. Even in the end, he never seemed to truly repent and see Voldemort as evil, or become even the remotes ally of Harry's. In the end, Draco has very little redemption, which, for me anyway, is a bit disappointing.

Really, what would have been 'courageous' would have been saying, "No, I won't do it." and being killed. I think Malfoy made his own choice. Even in the end, he never seemed to truly repent and see Voldemort as evil, or become even the remotes ally of Harry's. In the end, Draco has very little redemption, which, for me anyway, is a bit disappointing.

Well you know it could be seen as very human. The truth some human beings constantly disappoint, themselves and others. Draco I think was one of them. He couldn't be a successful Death Eater, it was too difficult to kill Dumbledore with the methods he decided were safe enough for him to use. Then he couldn't bring himself to kill Dumbledore when he had the chance. I myself don't think it was compassion on Draco's part. Killing someone is a step that can never be undone. Up to that point Draco had been playing at killing Dumbledore to a certain extent. I don't think Ron and Katie found his game fun though. But standing there on that tower, actually facing Dumbledore. Draco was like someone standing on top of a building deciding whether or not to jump If you jump there's no going back, but if you don't jump the circumstances that drove you up on the roof in the first place don't change. I don't think Draco was all that worried about his folks to tell the truth. He only mentions them to Dumbledore who he knows is very compassionate. In the bathroom all he could moan about was his own life, nobody else's. So Draco was up on the roof and IMO he found out the true meaning of between a rock and a hard place. He just didn't have the courage to choose. Neither one was all that comfortable and I think Draco liked his comforts.

Okay, maybe "courageous" was an overstatement.

Anyway. I think he did realize his mistakes in the end. But it really wasn't shown in the book. At least I think Narcissa did. And um, having a big ego... it's not really that easy lowering your pride. But I'd like to think Draco changed a bit, in the epilogue, he addressed Harry and the others, nodding curtly. What do you guys think?
But that's just me, trying to see everyone positively, lol. Even Voldemort.

Okay, maybe "courageous" was an overstatement.

Anyway. I think he did realize his mistakes in the end. But it really wasn't shown in the book. At least I think Narcissa did. And um, having a big ego... it's not really that easy lowering your pride. But I'd like to think Draco changed a bit, in the epilogue, he addressed Harry and the others, nodding curtly. What do you guys think?
But that's just me, trying to see everyone positively, lol. Even Voldemort.

Unfortuately Voldemort did not have many positive qualities. I can't think of one.
The 'curt' nod? - You know, curtness is not polite. Here's the on-line dictionary definition:
Curt: adj. curt·er, curt·est
1. Rudely brief or abrupt, as in speech or manner.
2. Using few words; terse.
3. Having been shortened.

Or let's look at the Oxford English Dictionary:
Appearing rude because very few words are used, or because something is done in a very quick way
Synonym abrupt, brusque
a curt reply
a curt nod
A curt note of rejection arrived from the company director.
His tone was curt and unfriendly.


I have always read it as being downright rude. Here were the people who saved Draco's delicate rear end and kept him out of prison and all he can do is give a 'curt' nod. That for me describes Draco perfectly, ungrateful and rude. But it's made up for me because he's losing his hair. I just love that

I don't think Draco was all that worried about his folks to tell the truth. He only mentions them to Dumbledore who he knows is very compassionate. In the bathroom all he could moan about was his own life, nobody else's.

I don't find this believable, personally. Why would Draco put on an act as a play for Dumbledore's pity? I see no reason for him to, in the Tower scene. Instead I see him begin the conversation with a facade of false bravado, which he loses as ther conversatoin continues.

In the bathroom scene, Harry is not a very successful eavesdropper. Here, in its entirely, is the conversation Harry overhears:

"Don't," crooned Moaning Myrtle's voice from one of the cubicles. "Don't. . . tell me what's wrong ... I can help you. . . ."

"No one can help me," said Malfoy. His whole body was shaking. "I can't do it. ... I can't. ... It won't work . . . and unless 1 do it soon ... he says he'll kill me. ..."

The ellipses, in my opinion, indicate that Draco is getting these phrases out with difficulty and through his tears. He also stops talking to Myrtle when he notices Harry, so I don't think we have a basis to conclude he was not concerned about his parents from what he said.

We do know that concern about his parents' well-being, if not their lives, was certainly warranted, both from the conversation Snape and Dumbledore had about the Malfoys and their problems in DH, and from the DH scenes depicting Voldemort's attitude towards and treatment of Lucius, scenes which confirm Snape and Dumbledore's opinions for the reader.

I think the reason why he tried to kill Dumbledore, while he wasn't there, was both cowardly and courageous, oddly.

In my opinion, Draco became a Death Eater somewhere between the end of OotP and when we first see him in HBP because it was the thing he had been taught all his life was the right thing to do. I think he admired his father and wanted to follow in his footsteps, and also hoped to help his father, of whose fall from favor Draco had at least some awareness (as seen by the hostility he expresses towards Snape in HBP, for example). Therefore, I think your description of his actions early on as courageous, is warranted to a degree. Draco is courageous to the degree that any youth who has through human history volunteered to fight for his country/ family/ tribe/ cause, is courageous, regardless of our personal opinions of the merits of those entities or beliefs.

His choice to act in secret, I would not class as cowardly. I don't think he believed he could succeed openly, alone. So I don't think we can say that he acted as he did solely to avoid bad consequences to himself. Concern for the successful completion of his assignment also explains his course of action.

His decision not to kill Albus when he had the chance I certainly cannot call cowardly! It is a moral action; and it is also an action that is done in face of the fears Draco has just expressed. Were he acting out of those fears, he would kill Albus as Voldemort desired.

Though I think the word "courageous" is best applied to Draco's actions in the Room of Requirement once Crabbe had started the Fiendfyre. In the face of the danger the fire posed, Draco took the time and made the effort to do all he could to save the life of his friend Goyle.

The 'curt' nod? - You know, curtness is not polite.

I disagree, because a nod, that is, an inclination of the head towards another person in acknowledgment of their presence, is in itself polite. I think what renders is curt in this instance, is that it is not accompanied by any verbal acknowledgment (so, the sense of few, or in this case no, words, applies). Also Rowling uses the same description (a curt nod) in other places where rudeness does not make sense to me. (This is the only sign Snape ever gives that he plans to protect the students of Hogwarts in "The Prince's Tale", and that he will kill Dumbledore when the time comes, for example.)

I think it may well be grudging, but I would not go so far as to call that rude. I agree with kmhm that this is a mark of change in Draco rather than the opposite, because in earlier times, Draco would not have done even that. :)

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

Yeah, I think the references JKR put in the early books about his father being a deatheater in the last war and the idea of him bragging about his pure-blood status and the fact he was put in Slytherin indicated that Draco would become a death eater

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.

Yeah that is definitely clear when Lucius is complaining about Hermionie beating Draco in the first year exams.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

erm...not really sure. I think some of his choices are from fear but i think his choices are just based on what the outcome will be for himself and his family. His loyalty lies within his family.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?

I don't think he is misunderstood...but he can be pretty mean

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?

I don't think he regrets his decision to not kill Dumbledore. He has no choice but to continue to serve Voldemort. Once a Death Eater always a Death Eater. I don't think he really regrets his choices in DH but i think he regrets becoming a Death Eater in the first place.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.

I don't really think it will be hugely significant.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?

I believe JKR revealed his wife to be Greengrass...not sure about that though. As a profession i'm not really sure. I can't actually picture him working...he maybe just lives off of his familys fortune!

Draco is courageous to the degree that any youth who has through human history volunteered to fight for his country/ family/ tribe/ cause, is courageous, regardless of our personal opinions of the merits of those entities or beliefs.

Thank you for making the important distinction that I think is easy to miss in this discussion: the distinction between basic courage and moral courage. According to my Webster's (New Twentieth Century, 2nd Edition), courage is:

"The attitude or response of facing and dealing with anything recognized as dangerous, difficult, or painful, instead of withdrawing from it."

Or, in other words, 'doing something that frightens you.' Courage in and of itself doesn't necessarily involve a value judgment -- being a criminal, while morally despicable, still takes guts. If we're really asking about courage rather than morality, then it seems clear that, like it or not, Draco qualifies as courageous at least through the majority of HBP: it's emphasized over and over that everybody, including Voldemort, expected him to chicken out and give up the assignment. Whether he should have been courageous in that situation is a different question.

In fact, I think it's one of the most interesting aspects of Draco's character that he's often at his best when he's least courageous. It's when his courage fails, from the end of HBP through most of DH, that his morals begin to grow. His attempt to save Goyle in the Room of Requirement to me seems to indicate that he's finally learned how to combine courage and morals.

I have always read it as being downright rude. Here were the people who saved Draco's delicate rear end and kept him out of prison and all he can do is give a 'curt' nod.

I agree with arithmancer that too much emphasis can be put on the 'rude' connotation of the word 'curt,' but even if it is read as rude -- cut Draco a little slack. The Trio did save Draco's life, but they preceded the gesture with seven years of hatred which involved, among other things, some very unpleasant hexes at the end of GoF, Lucius Malfoy's imprisonment after OotP, and what Draco quite probably viewed as a murder attempt by Harry in HBP. Even in DH, the last interaction we see between Draco and the Trio (before the epilogue) is Ron punching Draco in the face. Ron's attitude in the epilogue makes it clear that Draco is not the only one for whom this history of antagonism makes friendliness difficult. Given such a history, especially considered from Draco's point of view, I don't think it's reasonable to condemn Draco for failing to produce a public display of gratitude.

On top of all this -- some people just have trouble being emotionally demonstrative. Even if Draco was truly grateful for what the Trio had done, he might still feel awkward expressing it in a crowded train station.

[QUOTE=arithmancer;5741020]I don't find this believable, personally. Why would Draco put on an act as a play for Dumbledore's pity? I see no reason for him to, in the Tower scene. Instead I see him begin the conversation with a facade of false bravado, which he loses as ther conversatoin continues.

In the bathroom scene, Harry is not a very successful eavesdropper. Here, in its entirely, is the conversation Harry overhears:

"Don't," crooned Moaning Myrtle's voice from one of the cubicles. "Don't. . . tell me what's wrong ... I can help you. . . ."

"No one can help me," said Malfoy. His whole body was shaking. "I can't do it. ... I can't. ... It won't work . . . and unless 1 do it soon ... he says he'll kill me. ..."

The ellipses, in my opinion, indicate that Draco is getting these phrases out with difficulty and through his tears. He also stops talking to Myrtle when he notices Harry, so I don't think we have a basis to conclude he was not concerned about his parents from what he said.

Maybe, we'd know for sure. If he had ever mentioned his parent's in his whine? I find it very convenient for Draco to only mention his parents to Dumbledore, he's always struck me as being conniving

We do know that concern about his parents' well-being, if not their lives, was certainly warranted, both from the conversation Snape and Dumbledore had about the Malfoys and their problems in DH, and from the DH scenes depicting Voldemort's attitude towards and treatment of Lucius, scenes which confirm Snape and Dumbledore's opinions for the reader.

Sure we do, but Draco only shows concern about his parents once, to Dumbledore when he's telling him why he has to kill him.

In my opinion, Draco became a Death Eater somewhere between the end of OotP and when we first see him in HBP because it was the thing he had been taught all his life was the right thing to do. I think he admired his father and wanted to follow in his footsteps, and also hoped to help his father, of whose fall from favor Draco had at least some awareness (as seen by the hostility he expresses towards Snape in HBP, for example). Therefore, I think your description of his actions early on as courageous, is warranted to a degree. Draco is courageous to the degree that any youth who has through human history volunteered to fight for his country/ family/ tribe/ cause, is courageous, regardless of our personal opinions of the merits of those entities or beliefs.

You know I just don't buy into the whole 'Draco was a Death Eater because he wanted to impress Daddy' scenario. In my experience kids don't as a whole want to go down a path the leads 'straight to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.00.' Some kids do sure, but enough of them don't, for that to be a viable explanation for me.


His choice to act in secret, I would not class as cowardly. I don't think he believed he could succeed openly, alone. So I don't think we can say that he acted as he did solely to avoid bad consequences to himself. Concern for the successful completion of his assignment also explains his course of action.

I would class it as nothing but cowardly. I don't see much bravery in attempting to murder someone from behind the back of a woman whose mind and free will has been taken away from her. You may see that as couragous, I don't.


His decision not to kill Albus when he had the chance I certainly cannot call cowardly! It is a moral action; and it is also an action that is done in face of the fears Draco has just expressed. Were he acting out of those fears, he would kill Albus as Voldemort desired.

I would say it could have been a moral action if Draco had ever made up his mind one way or another. He didn't, Snape made up his mind for him.

Though I think the word "courageous" is best applied to Draco's actions in the Room of Requirement once Crabbe had started the Fiendfyre. In the face of the danger the fire posed, Draco took the time and made the effort to do all he could to save the life of his friend Goyle.

Did he? Can you tell me that was his motive or was he so desperate he didn't think about what he was doing? It could have been, but that is something we don't know for sure IMO. I'm not saying he wasn't trying to save Goyle's life, I have my doubts because not once apart from this occasion do we see him do anything worthwhile.

I disagree, because a nod, that is, an inclination of the head towards another person in acknowledgment of their presence, is in itself polite. I think what renders is curt in this instance, is that it is not accompanied by any verbal acknowledgment (so, the sense of few, or in this case no, words, applies). Also Rowling uses the same description (a curt nod) in other places where rudeness does not make sense to me. (This is the only sign Snape ever gives that he plans to protect the students of Hogwarts in "The Prince's Tale", and that he will kill Dumbledore when the time comes, for example.)

Curt means what it means. I trust the Oxford Dictionary and I think Rowling is too careful a writer to use a word like that, which has a definite meaning as a synonym for something else. A curt nod does not change into a polite nod, especially when the person giving the curt nod turns his back. Where does Rowling use curtness to display politeness? I can only recall one instance where that descriptive word is used that could be construed as something else. McGonagall speaks to Harry curtly once when in the presence of Umbridge. Snape gives a curt nod to Dumbledore and as you point out below that can convey a grudging acceptance as well as unwillingness. Snape agreed, but 'curtly' clearly conveys his unwillingness for the deed.

I think it may well be grudging, but I would not go so far as to call that rude. I agree with kmhm that this is a mark of change in Draco rather than the opposite, because in earlier times, Draco would not have done even that. :)

For me is shows that Draco has not changed, he is as ungrateful on the station as he was when he got out of the Room of Requirements and tried to surrender to a Death Eater. I am still glad he is losing his hair.

Then he couldn't bring himself to kill Dumbledore when he had the chance. I myself don't think it was compassion on Draco's part. Killing someone is a step that can never be undone.

Draco was like someone standing on top of a building deciding whether or not to jump If you jump there's no going back, but if you don't jump the circumstances that drove you up on the roof in the first place don't change.

I think that's an interesting way to put it - with the poison and the cursed necklace, Draco could delude himself that he hadn't done anything wrong. Looking face to face with his potential victim, may have finally brought it home to him that murdering someone was a huge step. And if he'd Avada Kedavra'd Dumbledore himself, he wouldn't be able to distance himself from his crime, as he could with the other two attempts.

Okay, maybe "courageous" was an overstatement.

Anyway. I think he did realize his mistakes in the end. But it really wasn't shown in the book. At least I think Narcissa did. And um, having a big ego... it's not really that easy lowering your pride. But I'd like to think Draco changed a bit, in the epilogue, he addressed Harry and the others, nodding curtly. What do you guys think?
But that's just me, trying to see everyone positively, lol. Even Voldemort.

I don't think it's shown that Draco realised his mistakes. I think he realised that serving a megalomaniac wasn't in his best interests. I don't think he realised that the bigotry which led him and his family to Voldemort was a mistake. And on the subject of his ego - believing that one's blood makes them superior, more deserving of life, and entitled to power over the lives and deaths of others is beyond pride, IMO - I think it's the very worst kind of arrogance.

I don't find this believable, personally. Why would Draco put on an act as a play for Dumbledore's pity? I see no reason for him to, in the Tower scene. Instead I see him begin the conversation with a facade of false bravado, which he loses as ther conversatoin continues.

Perhaps not to get pity from Dumbledore, but to justify murder to himself? It seems Draco draws a distinction between murdering someone face to face, and murdering them from a distance, even if the law does not.

Therefore, I think your description of his actions early on as courageous, is warranted to a degree. Draco is courageous to the degree that any youth who has through human history volunteered to fight for his country/ family/ tribe/ cause, is courageous, regardless of our personal opinions of the merits of those entities or beliefs.

I don't think hiding behind a patsy (Rosmerta) while you attempt murder is brave. Draco's attempts on Dumbledore's life, which almost killed Katie and Ron, were IMO, just as cowardly as the people who plant car-bombs. DEs killing Muggles, who have no defence against magic, is in no way whatsoever brave, IMO.

His choice to act in secret, I would not class as cowardly. I don't think he believed he could succeed openly, alone. So I don't think we can say that he acted as he did solely to avoid bad consequences to himself. Concern for the successful completion of his assignment also explains his course of action.

Hiding while he attempted murder is cowardly, IMO. As you say, he did it to avoid bad consequences to himself - I consider that cowardly - he wanted the benefits he would get if he killed Dumbledore, with minimal risk or potential for being caught and sent off to Azkaban.

I don't think he is misunderstood...but he can be pretty mean

I don't think he's "misunderstood", either. I think that word is over-used. :shrug:
i think Draco really was the spoilt, arrogant racist he was initially shown as. He had problems arising from these traits and the things they led his family to, but the trio weren't mistaken in considering him a racist bully during their years at Hogwarts.

Or, in other words, 'doing something that frightens you.' Courage in and of itself doesn't necessarily involve a value judgment -- being a criminal, while morally despicable, still takes guts. If we're really asking about courage rather than morality, then it seems clear that, like it or not, Draco qualifies as courageous at least through the majority of HBP: it's emphasized over and over that everybody, including Voldemort, expected him to chicken out and give up the assignment. Whether he should have been courageous in that situation is a different question.

IMO, courage would have involved going to Dumbledore, and getting help, rather than almost murdering two fellow students with his underhand schemes.


The Trio did save Draco's life, but they preceded the gesture with seven years of hatred which involved, among other things, some very unpleasant hexes at the end of GoF, Lucius Malfoy's imprisonment after OotP, and what Draco quite probably viewed as a murder attempt by Harry in HBP. Even in DH, the last interaction we see between Draco and the Trio (before the epilogue) is Ron punching Draco in the face.

I would like to point out that the antagonism was mutual, and involved years of Draco throwing the most vile racial insult at Hermione, of Draco and his friends attempting to sabotage Quidditch matches in PoA, of Draco being a member of an evil racist organisation which was attempting to kill Harry and Hermione. It was by no means a one-sided conflict.


On top of all this -- some people just have trouble being emotionally demonstrative. Even if Draco was truly grateful for what the Trio had done, he might still feel awkward expressing it in a crowded train station.

I don't expect Draco to express his thanks on the platform nineteen years later, but I hope he had the decency to express gratitude that he and his family were alive and not in Azkaban for their actions after the war ended.

Sure we do, but Draco only shows concern about his parents once, to Dumbledore when he's telling him why he has to kill him.
Yet he did so in the context of several other perfectly honest and revealing statements. If it's true that Draco's statement to Dumbledore regarding his parents is suspect, then it must also be questionable whether his admissions to the earlier assassination attempts are true. My first reading would not be that he spills all of his secrets, which he had been guarding all year long and which had caused him great anxiety, but then for some reason makes up a lie about his parents.

When he's speaking to Myrtle, I don't know if there's a reason he ought to talk to her about his parents, for a couple of reasons. First, he fears (and has believed all along) that the task is his alone, and his success or failure depends entirely on his own ingenuity. Second, he evidently has discovered that his life hangs in the balance if he fails. Because of those factors I can't really blame the guy for being somewhat interested in his own fate--he feels alone, he feels solely responsible for the consequences, and he's afraid he can't do it.

Finally, for his tower statement to be true, I'm not sure it's necessary that he believe his parents are in danger all along. Comparing his comments and attitude about the mission at the beginning and following along to the tower, clearly things change, whether it's all in his mind or there really is a decline in Voldemort's indulgence.

I think there's plenty of room for the reading that he is oblivious to the implications of what he's agreed to do. Should he know what they are? Yeah, he should, if he's at all moral. But several characters (let's say Slughorn for example) have previously established that when Voldemort asks for help you can't really politely decline and go about your business. Whether he knows it consciously or not at the outset, I don't think Draco actually has a choice in the matter if he wants to avoid serious consequences. His mother's statements and Snape's actions would seem to confirm this. But as I said, his feelings on the matter, and indeed perhaps the external circumstances, evolve markedly throughout the book. That's why if he only mentions his parents at the end, I believe it's because that's the moment when the full horror of what he's done is dawning on him for the first time. I think a great deal of that horror involves fear of being caught or killed, but that doesn't contraindicate concern for his parents' safety, safety which we know is likely quite uncertain.

=canismajoris;5741085]Yet he did so in the context of several other perfectly honest and revealing statements. If it's true that Draco's statement to Dumbledore regarding his parents is suspect, then it must also be questionable whether his admissions to the earlier assassination attempts are true. My first reading would not be that he spills all of his secrets, which he had been guarding all year long and which had caused him great anxiety, but then for some reason makes up a lie about his parents.

Does any of that change the fact that he only mentions his parents to Dumbledore as an exculpation for trying to murder Dumbledore?

When he's speaking to Myrtle, I don't know if there's a reason he ought to talk to her about his parents, for a couple of reasons. First, he fears (and has believed all along) that the task is his alone, and his success or failure depends entirely on his own ingenuity. Second, he evidently has discovered that his life hangs in the balance if he fails. Because of those factors I can't really blame the guy for being somewhat interested in his own fate--he feels alone, he feels solely responsible for the consequences, and he's afraid he can't do it.

Well I think if he was that worried about his parents it would have been gasped out between the load of 'I' 'I' 'I's

Finally, for his tower statement to be true, I'm not sure it's necessary that he believe his parents are in danger all along. Comparing his comments and attitude about the mission at the beginning and following along to the tower, clearly things change, whether it's all in his mind or there really is a decline in Voldemort's indulgence.

I think he didn't think of his parents being in danger till he got up there, facing Dumbledore and trying to justify himself.

I think there's plenty of room for the reading that he is oblivious to the implications of what he's agreed to do. Should he know what they are? Yeah, he should, if he's at all moral. But several characters (let's say Slughorn for example) have previously established that when Voldemort asks for help you can't really politely decline and go about your business. Whether he knows it consciously or not at the outset, I don't think Draco actually has a choice in the matter if he wants to avoid serious consequences. His mother's statements and Snape's actions would seem to confirm this. But as I said, his feelings on the matter, and indeed perhaps the external circumstances, evolve markedly throughout the book. That's why if he only mentions his parents at the end, I believe it's because that's the moment when the full horror of what he's done is dawning on him for the first time. I think a great deal of that horror involves fear of being caught or killed, but that doesn't contraindicate concern for his parents' safety, safety which we know is likely quite uncertain.

Yet Slughorn did manage to avoid joining up with Voldemort. Are you seriously saying that Narcissa couldn't do as good a job as Slughorn if Draco had asked her? All of this ignores the fact that Draco wanted to join up with Voldemort. Did he understand what that meant? Well I think looking at Cedric's body at the end of GOF should have given him a clue. Did he understand what Ron and Katie Bell went through? I think he didn't give a thought to what Ron and Katie went through. I think he didn't care that Rosemerta could have been damaged for life.There is not one scene in the books that shows Draco worrying about anything but his own skin, and I am including both the scene on the tower with Dumbledore and his actions in the Room of Requirements. Both those scenes are too ambiguous for me. He could or he couldn't be acting in a semi decent manner, I have my doubts.
My basic point is Draco's motives are never explained on page as to show him in a good light. For me if it's not shown on page then any theory just stays that, a theory.

Does any of that change the fact that he only mentions his parents to Dumbledore as an exculpation for trying to murder Dumbledore?
I don't see even a hint that he was looking for exculpation. As I said before, during that conversation he freely admitted to several attempts at murder... not sure that qualifies as exculpation, more like confession.

Well I think if he was that worried about his parents it would have been gasped out between the load of 'I' 'I' 'I's
I've already argued why I don't think he would have said anything about it, but I believe you're arguing really that he should have. That he didn't may indeed mean that he is a selfish or thoughtless person, but I see an enormous burden on him at that precise moment, so why shouldn't he be thinking about himself? I would be.

I think he didn't think of his parents being in danger till he got up there, facing Dumbledore and trying to justify himself.
If I remember correctly, the bulk of the conversation involves Draco answering Dumbledore's questions and explaining what he had done. It culminates in Dumbledore offering Draco a way out, not Draco asking for forgiveness. To be honest, I think you've assigned Draco a motive that is never expressed.

Yet Slughorn did manage to avoid joining up with Voldemort. Are you seriously saying that Narcissa couldn't do as good a job as Slughorn if Draco had asked her? All of this ignores the fact that Draco wanted to join up with Voldemort. Did he understand what that meant?
Considering that Bellatrix Lestrange, a prominent Death Eater is his aunt and her sister, he's not yet a qualified wizard, and Voldemort is at one point casually occupying the Malfoy home as a headquarters, yes, I am seriously saying that Narcissa couldn't do as a good job as Slughorn. Slughorn was running because he feared even being approached. I can't imagine Draco had the luxury of completely avoiding the issue.

Well I think looking at Cedric's body at the end of GOF should have given him a clue. Did he understand what Ron and Katie Bell went through? I think he didn't give a thought to what Ron and Katie went through. I think he didn't care that Rosemerta could have been damaged for life.There is not one scene in the books that shows Draco worrying about anything but his own skin, and I am including both the scene on the tower with Dumbledore and his actions in the Room of Requirements.
I agree, he didn't appear to think any of those things through. But that doesn't mean he can't have genuine remorse for them after the fact. The epilogue proves that the wizarding world, or at least those aware of what he did, apparently feel that he wasn't culpable.

That's why if he only mentions his parents at the end, I believe it's because that's the moment when the full horror of what he's done is dawning on him for the first time.

What is there to indicate that Draco realised the horror of what he did to Ron, Katie and Madam Rosmerta?


Yet Slughorn did manage to avoid joining up with Voldemort. Are you seriously saying that Narcissa couldn't do as good a job as Slughorn if Draco had asked her? All of this ignores the fact that Draco wanted to join up with Voldemort. Did he understand what that meant? Well I think looking at Cedric's body at the end of GOF should have given him a clue.

On Cedric's murder -it should have shown him quite clearly what Voldemort was about. I think it did in a way - he taunted the trio about it, and joked about how they would be the next to go. He knew what his father and other DEs were doing to the Muggle family at the campsite.
IMO, in typical DE fashion, Draco did not realise that any of this was wrong until he himself was suffering because of Voldemort. I agree that he wanted to be a part of this. He saw no problem with the prospect of destroying lives, and the act of it, until Voldemort threatened him and his loved ones. Harming others was fine.

[QUOTE=canismajoris;5741098]I don't see even a hint that he was looking for exculpation. As I said before, during that conversation he freely admitted to several attempts at murder... not sure that qualifies as exculpation, more like confession.

Did it? I thought he was boasting.

I've already argued why I don't think he would have said anything about it, but I believe you're arguing really that he should have. That he didn't may indeed mean that he is a selfish or thoughtless person, but I see an enormous burden on him at that precise moment, so why shouldn't he be thinking about himself? I would be.

So he wasn't thinking about his parents, just himself? I think that was what 'i was saying.


If I remember correctly, the bulk of the conversation involves Draco answering Dumbledore's questions and explaining what he had done. It culminates in Dumbledore offering Draco a way out, not Draco asking for forgiveness. To be honest, I think you've assigned Draco a motive that is never expressed.

Did I? I'm sorry, I meant to say that Draco's motive in killing Dumbledore was to advance to No1Favourite Death Eater.


Considering that Bellatrix Lestrange, a prominent Death Eater is his aunt and her sister, he's not yet a qualified wizard, and Voldemort is at one point casually occupying the Malfoy home as a headquarters, yes, I am seriously saying that Narcissa couldn't do as a good job as Slughorn. Slughorn was running because he feared even being approached. I can't imagine Draco had the luxury of completely avoiding the issue.

And yet she got out to go and see Snape and took care of her sister at the same time. There she was walking down Diagon Alley just her and Draco. She seems capable enough to me.

I agree, he didn't appear to think any of those things through. But that doesn't mean he can't have genuine remorse for them after the fact. The epilogue proves that the wizarding world, or at least those aware of what he did, apparently feel that he wasn't culpable.

Well the thing for me is in a book where we have to read about someone's actions and reactions there has to be something on page to indicate that the character has remorse, we don't have any other way of knowing that said remorse exists. If it doesn't appear that he thought things through, he didn't think things through. Draco does nothing to show remorse, Draco says nothing to indicate remorse therefore as far as I can see the remorse doesn't exist.

What is there to indicate that Draco realised the horror of what he did to Ron, Katie and Madam Rosmerta?
The conversation he had with Dumbledore. You are welcome to disagree, but I think Draco's state of mind is pretty plain, and in stark contrast to his words. I'm not sure how to explain it, except that I do not read that chapter with the assumption that Draco is a one-dimensional villain.

If it's always necessary for the narrator to exclaim something in order for it to be true, then I capitulate, but I'm perfectly comfortable with my reading of Draco as a boy who completely lacked the opportunities to act as you're suggesting he should have. The context of his life, and ultimately his actions themselves, vindicate him to me, and to Dumbledore, and ultimately to Harry as well.

The conversation he had with Dumbledore. You are welcome to disagree, but I think Draco's state of mind is pretty plain, and in stark contrast to his words. I'm not sure how to explain it, except that I do not read that chapter with the assumption that Draco is a one-dimensional villain.

No he's not. He has at least two dimensions. Not sure what they are though.

No he's not. He has at least two dimensions. Not sure what they are though.
Really, I see Draco as a genuinely bad person: Not that he's evil, just that he is a true Slytherin, and he had a pretty rotten upbringing with a pretty rotten family. That aspect of him is perfectly obvious throughout, but then I think there's a Draco who realizes that he's inherited much of what he believes, and who really isn't a killer even though he thought he was. For me it's not about whether he's bad or good, but what really motivates him. If he's in it for himself and for glory, as he says, then he must go through with his plan. But he can't, and to me that makes him a rather pathetic character. He wanted so badly to distinguish himself by doing terrible things, and yet he failed even at that. Justifying his own existence, even in such a morally corrupt way, is something I can't really fault him for given who he already was.

Really, I see Draco as a genuinely bad person: Not that he's evil, just that he is a true Slytherin, and he had a pretty rotten upbringing with a pretty rotten family. That aspect of him is perfectly obvious throughout, but then I think there's a Draco who realizes that he's inherited much of what he believes, and who really isn't a killer even though he thought he was. For me it's not about whether he's bad or good, but what really motivates him. If he's in it for himself and for glory, as he says, then he must go through with his plan. But he can't, and to me that makes him a rather pathetic character. He wanted so badly to distinguish himself by doing terrible things, and yet he failed even at that.

I myself don't blame upbringing for all of someone's failings. There cames a point when you grow up and take resposibilty for your actions. Draco fails so much at everythng even at showing gratitude for having his life saved.

I myself don't blame upbringing for all of someone's failings. There cames a point when you grow up and take resposibilty for your actions. Draco fails so much at everythng even at showing gratitude for having his life saved.
While that is a fine sentiment, I still believe it's an unreasonable demand given the actual circumstances Draco was in. In my experience, people do not spontaneously abandon everything they believe in, and in Draco I think that would have made him even more odious. No, rather I think it was coincidental that he could not walk away and did not wish to, and for the same reason: his family's ties to Voldemort.

I would like to point out that the antagonism was mutual, and involved years of Draco throwing the most vile racial insult at Hermione, of Draco and his friends attempting to sabotage Quidditch matches in PoA, of Draco being a member of an evil racist organisation which was attempting to kill Harry and Hermione. It was by no means a one-sided conflict.

I agree with you completely; Draco's record is far dirtier than the Trio's and by no means is he anything approaching an innocent victim. I realize, though, that, out of context (or who knows? maybe in context too), it might have seemed as though I was trying to justify Draco's actions.

I wasn't. :no: I was only trying to understand them by looking at the way he probably viewed the past seven years (as opposed to the way we, as readers with more information than any single character and a far more objective vantage point, might view them). The question was one of Draco's attitude (and the precise meaning of the word 'curt' :)), not of Harry's, Ron's, or Hermione's. There's a place, of course, for comparison, but I'm not certain this is it.

I don't expect Draco to express his thanks on the platform nineteen years later, but I hope he had the decency to express gratitude that he and his family were alive and not in Azkaban for their actions after the war ended.

I hope so as well.

The conversation he had with Dumbledore. You are welcome to disagree, but I think Draco's state of mind is pretty plain, and in stark contrast to his words. I'm not sure how to explain it, except that I do not read that chapter with the assumption that Draco is a one-dimensional villain.

Your mentioning it inspired me to take a shot. :D I've misspent countless hours dissecting every word and nuance of the end of this scene, so why not look at an earlier part? :lol:

There is little time, one way or another,' said Dumbledore. 'So let us discuss your options, Draco.'

'My options!' said Malfoy loudly. 'I'm standing here with a wand - I'm about to kill you -'

'My dear boy, let us have no more pretense about that. If you were going to kill me, you would have done it when you first Disarmed me, you would not have stopped for this pleasant chat about ways and means.'

'I haven't got any options!' said Malfoy, and he was suddenly as white as Dumbledore. 'I've got to do it! He'll kill me! He'll kill my whole family!'

Here is where Draco first brings up his family. Up until this moment, he has been showing bravado (sneering, speaking as though he takes pride in his accomplishments, etc.). Then, in this moment, after Dumbledore confidently asserts Draco will not do it, Draco stops protesting, and “suddenly” becomes as pale as Dumbledore (a dying man). Why? What is the danger Draco "suddenly" perceives, that scares him so much that he drops his pretense? (It must be a pretense – faking a change in skin tone is surely beyond his talents...)

Is it that he suddenly thinks Dumbledore is a danger to him and realizes he should be soliciting his sympathy? I don't think so, because there is no sudden change in the situation which could account for such an opinion on Draco's part. He thinks Dumbledore is at his mercy.

What I think scares Draco, is that, hearing Dumbledore say it, he finally realizes it is true. He is not going to kill Dumbledore, and this terrifies him, as well it may. And so he tries to talk himself back into it, using the arguments that matter most to him. Not glory, not the Pureblood cause, not anymore. Just, what Voldemort will to to him and ot his parents if he disobeys. And this, I believe, is why he says what he says.

'I appreciate the difficulty of your position,' said Dumbledore. 'Why else do you think I have not confronted you before now? Because I knew that you would have been murdered if Lord Voldemort realised that I suspected you.'

And Dumbledore confirms that he sees it the same way. Draco has been in mortal danger all year. Dumbledore is a wise character; he is also well-informed, having succeeded in placing a spy high in Voldemort's organization. The concern he expresses here about the danger to Draco and his parents, gives us an independent and unbiased source which supports the reality of Draco's fears – given the dangers he fears are real, I see no reason to suppose that Draco fails to see this and is merely lying when he speaks of his fear, which is, anyway, manifest in his appearance and manner at this point.

I myself don't blame upbringing for all of someone's failings. There cames a point when you grow up and take resposibilty for your actions. Draco fails so much at everythng even at showing gratitude for having his life saved.

I don't believe anyone blames all of Draco's shortcomings on his parenting, but in other situations, his shortcomings may not have prevented him from being a good person. It isn't as though Draco failed to confront his parents, it was that he never was really given reason to even think of doing so. He had a good thing going for almost all of his life, what possibly could have made him question his parents?

When he did have reason to do so, his shortcomings, if you can call the unwillingness to let your parents and yourself die a shortcoming, may have prevented him from acting for the greater good, but I think it is beyond impossible for me to consider Draco's situation as typical. From the very beginning of HBP he was in a no-win situation given his true character, so I don't know what we would really have expected from him.

[QUOTE=willfitz;5741216]I don't believe anyone blames all of Draco's shortcomings on his parenting, but in other situations, his shortcomings may not have prevented him from being a good person. It isn't as though Draco failed to confront his parents, it was that he never was really given reason to even think of doing so. He had a good thing going for almost all of his life, what possibly could have made him question his parents?

Do you mean the fact that his father went into Borgin and Burkes with him to talk over geting rid of the 'hot' items being kept at the Manor didn't clue him into the fact that the WW did not approve of Death Eaters? He lacked the facility to think for himself?

When he did have reason to do so, his shortcomings, if you can call the unwillingness to let your parents and yourself die a shortcoming, may have prevented him from acting for the greater good, but I think it is beyond impossible for me to consider Draco's situation as typical. From the very beginning of HBP he was in a no-win situation given his true character, so I don't know what we would really have expected from him.

I could maybe buy into this theory if Draco had you know, mentioned his parents in the bathroom scene. The one where all he can say is Voldemort is going to kill 'him' 'him' 'him' if he doesn't do the job. I'll give him the fact that it's not easy to face being killed because you've disappointed a murdering maniac. He should have asked Harry how he had been dealing with it for six years, but he didn't. Just like he never asked Ron and Katie how they were feeling after they got out of the hospital and he never asked Rosemerta if she had a headache from being Imperiused. Draco mentions his parents once, when he is explaining to Dumbledore why he has to kill him. I suppose it's not really the done thing to tell your headmaster you have to kill him to climb the Death Eater corporate ladder. As for what I expected from Draco, why got what I expected from Draco, a big sweet nothing. I never even got to read of him making a decision, Snape did it for him.

Post by Arithmancer
Your mentioning it inspired me to take a shot. I've misspent countless hours dissecting every word and nuance of the end of this scene, so why not look at an earlier part?

HBP, "The Lightning Struck Tower"There is little time, one way or another,' said Dumbledore. 'So let us discuss your options, Draco.'

'My options!' said Malfoy loudly. 'I'm standing here with a wand - I'm about to kill you -'

'My dear boy, let us have no more pretense about that. If you were going to kill me, you would have done it when you first Disarmed me, you would not have stopped for this pleasant chat about ways and means.'

'I haven't got any options!' said Malfoy, and he was suddenly as white as Dumbledore. 'I've got to do it! He'll kill me! He'll kill my whole family!'


Here is where Draco first brings up his family. Up until this moment, he has been showing bravado (sneering, speaking as though he takes pride in his accomplishments, etc.). Then, in this moment, after Dumbledore confidently asserts Draco will not do it, Draco stops protesting, and “suddenly” becomes as pale as Dumbledore (a dying man). Why? What is the danger Draco "suddenly" perceives, that scares him so much that he drops his pretense? (It must be a pretense – faking a change in skin tone is surely beyond his talents...)

Is it that he suddenly thinks Dumbledore is a danger to him and realizes he should be soliciting his sympathy? I don't think so, because there is no sudden change in the situation which could account for such an opinion on Draco's part. He thinks Dumbledore is at his mercy.

What I think scares Draco, is that, hearing Dumbledore say it, he finally realizes it is true. He is not going to kill Dumbledore, and this terrifies him, as well it may. And so he tries to talk himself back into it, using the arguments that matter most to him. Not glory, not the Pureblood cause, not anymore. Just, what Voldemort will to to him and ot his parents if he disobeys. And this, I believe, is why he says what he says.

IMO these scenes demonstrate two things,
1. Dumbledore's compassion.
2 Dumbledore's ability to play Draco like a fish.
I read that earlier on one of the threads and I have to say, I think the poster got it spot on. What I am really failing to see here is what Dumbledore's compassion and ability to twist Draco around have to do with Draco's character.

IMO these scenes demonstrate two things,
1. Dumbledore's compassion.
2 Dumbledore's ability to play Draco like a fish.

That is true, but the scene also demonstrates very clearly what Dumbledore so unerringly puts his finger on: the fact that Draco is terrified (of Voldemort and the revenge he will take on Draco's family if Draco fails) and that he is not, at heart, a killer, for all his DE pretensions.

What I am really failing to see here is what Dumbledore's compassion and ability to twist Draco around have to do with Draco's character.

I thought Arithmancer demonstrated pretty clearly in her post what it has to do with Draco's character. :hmm: This scene is not just about Dumbledore but Draco's reactions to what is happening. Seen through Dumbledore's highly perceptive eyes, we suddenly realise that Draco is not, at heart, a cold-blooded killer.

Cowardly, yes. Callous enough to be a serious and deadly menace to his school peers (e.g. Katie and Ron), yes. But not, after all -- when push comes to shove -- a truly ruthless killer who can murder someone in cold blood. He just doesn't have it in him.

And Draco also cares about his family. As I have said before, that won't make him Wizarding Citizen of the Year. :huh: Bad people care about their loved ones, too.

But he is not premier DE material, after all. He thought he was, but he really isn't.

All my opinion only.

[QUOTE=Pearl_Took;5741366]That is true, but the scene also demonstrates very clearly what Dumbledore so unerringly puts his finger on: the fact that Draco is terrified (of Voldemort and the revenge he will take on Draco's family if Draco fails) and that he is not, at heart, a killer, for all his DE pretensions.

Col,d be, not disputing it so much as pointing out it could be just as likely be that Draco is playing up to Dumbledore. He really does not want to tell Dumbledore that he planned on killing him to get in good with Voldemort does he? But he had to have some reason that has some kind of sense to it so out comes the family card. Call me cynical, it ust seems to be a little too convenient for me for Draco to suddenly spout out his concern for his family. I'm not saying he didn't have feelings about his family but his feelings seem more bound up in the prestige that took a knock than a son's love for his parents.



I thought Arithmancer demonstrated pretty clearly in her post what it has to do with Draco's character. :hmm: This scene is not just about Dumbledore but Draco's reactions to what is happening. Seen through Dumbledore's highly perceptive eyes, we suddenly realise that Draco is not, at heart, a cold-blooded killer.

Not for want of trying, IMO.

Cowardly, yes. Callous enough to be a serious and deadly menace to his school peers (e.g. Katie and Ron), yes. But not, after all -- when push comes to shove -- a truly ruthless killer who can murder someone in cold blood. He just doesn't have it in him.

You know I kind of think if Dumbledore had been lying in an unconcious lump on top of that tower Draco would have found his courage to kill quick enough.

And Draco also cares about his family. As I have said before, that won't make him Wizarding Citizen of the Year. :huh: Bad people care about their loved ones, too.

But he is not premier DE material, after all. He thought he was, but he really isn't.

All my opinion only.

Well my opinion is split about how much he cared for his family and how much he cared about their standing in the WW. He had feelings, i'm not too sure what for.

[QUOTE]

Col,d be, not disputing it so much as pointing out it could be just as likely be that Draco is playing up to Dumbledore. He really does not want to tell Dumbledore that he planned on killing him to get in good with Voldemort does he? But he had to have some reason that has some kind of sense to it so out comes the family card. Call me cynical, it ust seems to be a little too convenient for me for Draco to suddenly spout out his concern for his family. I'm not saying he didn't have feelings about his family but his feelings seem more bound up in the prestige that took a knock than a son's love for his parents.

I definitely don't think that Draco's outburst that Arithmancer quotes is a "cover-up" to avoid telling Dumbledore the truth. He's about to kill him, why would he lie about the reason? In fact, if he was so proud of being a Death Eater, there's no reason why he would want Dumbledore to think anything differently of him. As Arithmancer says, I think that this outburst is the real, scared, in-over-his-head Draco coming through.

[QUOTE]
Call me cynical, it ust seems to be a little too convenient for me for Draco to suddenly spout out his concern for his family. I'm not saying he didn't have feelings about his family but his feelings seem more bound up in the prestige that took a knock than a son's love for his parents.

This isn't the only time that the Malfoys put their family above Voldemort. Narcissa is willing to lie to Voldemort about Harry's death, just to see Draco, and during the Battle of Hogwarts, both of the Malfoys look for Draco instead of fighting. I realize this is a Draco analysis, I'm just saying that it's not out of character for Draco to be extremely concerned for his parents.

While that is a fine sentiment, I still believe it's an unreasonable demand given the actual circumstances Draco was in. In my experience, people do not spontaneously abandon everything they believe in, and in Draco I think that would have made him even more odious. No, rather I think it was coincidental that he could not walk away and did not wish to, and for the same reason: his family's ties to Voldemort.

With regard to the Malfoys' ties to Voldemort, I think they made their own bed. Draco found out that he should be careful what he wished for. It wasn't a coincidence, it was a consequence of supporting a homicidal madman.

I don't see what you mean by spontaneously, either. Up to HBP, Draco had spent five years at Hogwarts. He had been exposed to ideas other than his parents' racism. He had encountered Muggleborns. He had been beaten in exams by Hermione. There was plenty of evidence that what he had grown up with wasn't a shining truth -Muggleborns were not inferior, and Draco would have seen that if he had wanted to see. IMO, Draco refused to see this because his racist beliefs gave him instant superiority, without having to do anything to earn it. It didn't matter that Hermione got better grades, because he deserved to be alive, to be magical more than she did. That was why Draco clung to his bigotry, IMO.

I agree with you completely; Draco's record is far dirtier than the Trio's and by no means is he anything approaching an innocent victim. I realize, though, that, out of context (or who knows? maybe in context too), it might have seemed as though I was trying to justify Draco's actions.

I wasn't. :no: I was only trying to understand them by looking at the way he probably viewed the past seven years (as opposed to the way we, as readers with more information than any single character and a far more objective vantage point, might view them). The question was one of Draco's attitude (and the precise meaning of the word 'curt' :)), not of Harry's, Ron's, or Hermione's. There's a place, of course, for comparison, but I'm not certain this is it.

I see what you mean, if this is from Draco's perspective. But I would hope that Draco didn't have such a persecution complex as to cast himself in the role of "misunderstood" innocent and the trio as the "mean" people who didn't let him die in the Room of Requirement.


Is it that he suddenly thinks Dumbledore is a danger to him and realizes he should be soliciting his sympathy? I don't think so, because there is no sudden change in the situation which could account for such an opinion on Draco's part. He thinks Dumbledore is at his mercy.

What I think scares Draco, is that, hearing Dumbledore say it, he finally realizes it is true. He is not going to kill Dumbledore, and this terrifies him, as well it may. And so he tries to talk himself back into it, using the arguments that matter most to him. Not glory, not the Pureblood cause, not anymore. Just, what Voldemort will to to him and ot his parents if he disobeys.

I think Draco was initially trying to justify the murder to himself. He had previously deluded himself that it wasn't murder if he didn't do it face to face, IMO. But, as MsJPotter suggested earlier, he had figured out that killing someone was a step that couldn't be undone. He didn't want to do it, but he didn't want to fail, either. It's just unfortunate for Ron and Katie that he had to be looking a potential murder victim in the face before he realised it was wrong, and a huge step that can't be taken back.


I don't believe anyone blames all of Draco's shortcomings on his parenting, but in other situations, his shortcomings may not have prevented him from being a good person. It isn't as though Draco failed to confront his parents, it was that he never was really given reason to even think of doing so. He had a good thing going for almost all of his life, what possibly could have made him question his parents?

But in other situations, he would not be Draco. If he had been raised by non-racist, non-DE parents, he might not have the arrogant presumption that he was entitled to power over life and death, that he was more worthy than non-purebloods. But then, he would not be the Draco Malfoy of canon, either.

I think perhaps seeing a boy only three years his senior murdered might have alerted Draco to the possibility that the DEs weren't exactly brilliant. In true DE fashion, he only realises it's wrong when he and his loved ones are at the receiving end of Lord Voldemort's evil. It's fine when it's someone else suffering.

When he did have reason to do so, his shortcomings, if you can call the unwillingness to let your parents and yourself die a shortcoming, may have prevented him from acting for the greater good, but I think it is beyond impossible for me to consider Draco's situation as typical. From the very beginning of HBP he was in a no-win situation given his true character, so I don't know what we would really have expected from him.


Do you mean the fact that his father went into Borgin and Burkes with him to talk over geting rid of the 'hot' items being kept at the Manor didn't clue him into the fact that the WW did not approve of Death Eaters? He lacked the facility to think for himself?

I think Draco was too fascinated by dangerous items, like the Hand of Glory and the cursed necklace to pay too much heed to what was going on. He wanted power, IMO, he didn't care who he hurt, even at the age of twelve - he wanted to help the Heir of Slytherin, he smirked at the card saying the necklace had claimed nineteen Muggle lives.


As for what I expected from Draco, why got what I expected from Draco, a big sweet nothing. I never even got to read of him making a decision, Snape did it for him.

He lowered his wand a fraction before the other DEs arrived. While it's not a definitive decision, I think he may have been considering Dumbledore's offer. I don't think he wanted to be under Voldemort's thumb anymore, now that he'd figured out it wasn't a life of glory and power.


Cowardly, yes. Callous enough to be a serious and deadly menace to his school peers (e.g. Katie and Ron), yes. But not, after all -- when push comes to shove -- a truly ruthless killer who can murder someone in cold blood. He just doesn't have it in him.

I consider poisoning an attempt at cold-blooded murder. Just because he could avoid looking the victim in the face doesn't make poisoning any less of an attempt at murder. Most courts consider poisoning murder, just as much as shooting someone, as far as I know.

And Draco also cares about his family. As I have said before, that won't make him Wizarding Citizen of the Year. :huh: Bad people care about their loved ones, too.

I agree. Caring for a few loved ones and being willing to destroy the lives of others does not a good person make.


This isn't the only time that the Malfoys put their family above Voldemort. Narcissa is willing to lie to Voldemort about Harry's death, just to see Draco, and during the Battle of Hogwarts, both of the Malfoys look for Draco instead of fighting. I realize this is a Draco analysis, I'm just saying that it's not out of character for Draco to be extremely concerned for his parents.

They couldn't do much fighting, even if they wanted to - Narcissa and Lucius no longer had their wands.

I don't believe anyone blames all of Draco's shortcomings on his parenting, but in other situations, his shortcomings may not have prevented him from being a good person. It isn't as though Draco failed to confront his parents, it was that he never was really given reason to even think of doing so. He had a good thing going for almost all of his life, what possibly could have made him question his parents?

Draco's family situation seems similar to the Black family, except for the fact Draco was an only child, and may have been spoiled a bit more in general. But both had family money & lineage, the tradition of being in Slytherin; both were brought up being told that pureblood is superior, the dark arts are better, and eventually, that joining with Voldemort was commendable.

Yet Draco doesn't question his parents' viewpoint, he relishes it; Sirius does question what he's been told growing up, enough so to influence the hat to not put him in Slytherin. Draco is drawn to the Dark Arts, Sirius is not.

So in the end, how do we determine if Draco could have followed a different core path if he'd been in a similar family minus the blood prejudice & dark arts emphasis? And regardless, why doesn't Draco question his parents when his experiences seem to point in a different direction?

Draco's family situation seems similar to the Black family, except for the fact Draco was an only child, and may have been spoiled a bit more in general. But both had family money & lineage, the tradition of being in Slytherin; both were brought up being told that pureblood is superior, the dark arts are better, and eventually, that joining with Voldemort was commendable.
And except for the minor detail that Sirius' father was not, as far as we know, a Death Eater. Don't you think that might make a difference in how Draco sees the whole thing compared to how Sirius (and eventually Regulus) did?

So in the end, how do we determine if Draco could have followed a different core path if he'd been in a similar family minus the blood prejudice & dark arts emphasis? And regardless, why doesn't Draco question his parents when his experiences seem to point in a different direction?
Frankly, I don't think his experiences do point in a different direction. Applying the a reader's perspective to Draco doesn't really solve the equation. For example knowing Hermione is better than he is in school... I've heard it argued that this must prove to him that Muggleborns are worthy, but from his (and his father's point of view) it's an anomaly that denigrates him. Maybe it's unpleasant, but in order to understand Draco's formative situation I think it's necessary to think like a Death Eater.

Do you mean the fact that his father went into Borgin and Burkes with him to talk over geting rid of the 'hot' items being kept at the Manor didn't clue him into the fact that the WW did not approve of Death Eaters? He lacked the facility to think for himself?

Really, I find the flaw in this argument to be that it fails to take into account the fact that part of Draco's upbringing was learning not to listen to the proponents of equality.

I find that knowing that the WW is against the things his father did meant absolutely nothing to Draco, seeing as he had been taught that the WW as a whole was wrong. I know that the majority of the country in which I live believes that I will burn for eternity in a fiery hell, including the Prime Minister, but that doesn't mean that I am inclined to take up their belief system. In perhaps a more fitting example, there are still quite a few racists in the US, even official racist organizations, who are simply brought up that way. Because part of the ideology is to discount the words of anyone who sympathizes with an inferior race, the whole notion of being swayed by the majority is put in a completely different light.

To put it into simpler terms, imagine being stuck on an island with a dozen 7-year-olds and a physics professor. If the children all build a raft and tell you to come row for them, but the professor tells you that the raft will sink within the hour, would you be inclined to side with the masses, or the person who you feel is probably right? For Draco, as I see it, and indeed for most children to a certain extent, his father was essentially seen in this light. Draco naturally took his ideas into himself as a child, and thus until proven right, everyone who contradicted his father's ideas was by default wrong.

Draco's family situation seems similar to the Black family, except for the fact Draco was an only child, and may have been spoiled a bit more in general. But both had family money & lineage, the tradition of being in Slytherin; both were brought up being told that pureblood is superior, the dark arts are better, and eventually, that joining with Voldemort was commendable.

Yet Draco doesn't question his parents' viewpoint, he relishes it; Sirius does question what he's been told growing up, enough so to influence the hat to not put him in Slytherin. Draco is drawn to the Dark Arts, Sirius is not.

So in the end, how do we determine if Draco could have followed a different core path if he'd been in a similar family minus the blood prejudice & dark arts emphasis? And regardless, why doesn't Draco question his parents when his experiences seem to point in a different direction?

To be honest, I think the difference is love. Sirius never seems to have cared for his mother and likely his father, and thus it was easier to see their views from a more objective standpoint. In Malfoy's situation, I doubt he was ever given any cause to see his parents and wrong, as they raised him lovingly. The other matter is to what extent Draco and Sirius felt the need to gain their parents' approval. As a Slytherin, Draco would have relished making his parents proud, but Sirius may not have had that need, and was comfortable questioning them and fighting them.

And except for the minor detail that Sirius' father was not, as far as we know, a Death Eater. Don't you think that might make a difference in how Draco sees the whole thing compared to how Sirius (and eventually Regulus) did?
Fair point about the DE father. But I think Regulus had a similar situation to Draco's, in that he realized he didn't want to kill people face to face, enough so that he wanted out. As we know, Regulus defied Voldemort in the end even though he knew he'd be killed for it, and had no assurance his family wouldn't suffer as a result of what he'd done...a pretty radical turn. But I agree the DE-at-home-influence was probably a factor for Draco.

Frankly, I don't think his experiences do point in a different direction. Applying the a reader's perspective to Draco doesn't really solve the equation. For example knowing Hermione is better than he is in school... I've heard it argued that this must prove to him that Muggleborns are worthy, but from his (and his father's point of view) it's an anomaly that denigrates him. Maybe it's unpleasant, but in order to understand Draco's formative situation I think it's necessary to think like a Death Eater.
It's a bit more than reader's perspective, though...they're facts, Draco can see how talented Hermione is (in fact he steals her idea about the coins to communicate with Madam Rosmerta). Harry usually beats him at flying during quidditch, even though Malfoy has years of practice & the best equipment. At some point you'd think it'd sink in that maybe his father's not always right. Ironically, it's not until Draco is a DE that he begins to understand consequences, and that nothing is as cut & dried as he's been led to believe.

That is true, but the scene also demonstrates very clearly what Dumbledore so unerringly puts his finger on: the fact that Draco is terrified (of Voldemort and the revenge he will take on Draco's family if Draco fails) and that he is not, at heart, a killer, for all his DE pretensions.

I agree. The thing that always strikes me is that Draco is really frightened on the Tower. When he is recounting how he managed to get the DEs into Hogwarts he seems to be more confident but when Dumbledore challenges him as to whether he will kill him or not, he goes to pieces IMO. I don't think he could have turned as white as Dumbledore if he had been acting. I know he hadn't mentioned his family before but that doesn't mean he hadn't thought that they would suffer if he failed. And if failure would mean his own death, I'm not surprised he was so scared.


Col,d be, not disputing it so much as pointing out it could be just as likely be that Draco is playing up to Dumbledore. He really does not want to tell Dumbledore that he planned on killing him to get in good with Voldemort does he? But he had to have some reason that has some kind of sense to it so out comes the family card. Call me cynical, it ust seems to be a little too convenient for me for Draco to suddenly spout out his concern for his family. I'm not saying he didn't have feelings about his family but his feelings seem more bound up in the prestige that took a knock than a son's love for his parents.

Why should Draco not have wanted to let Dumbledore know he was going to kill him to get in with Voldemort? If the old man was going to die, it wouldn't matter what he knew, would it? His going pale and blurting out his fear for his family seemed to me an instinctive reaction to Dumbledore's remarks. But if we all saw the books in the same way, there'd be no discussion on here!



I definitely don't think that Draco's outburst that Arithmancer quotes is a "cover-up" to avoid telling Dumbledore the truth. He's about to kill him, why would he lie about the reason? In fact, if he was so proud of being a Death Eater, there's no reason why he would want Dumbledore to think anything differently of him. As Arithmancer says, I think that this outburst is the real, scared, in-over-his-head Draco coming through.

I agree.


I don't see what you mean by spontaneously, either. Up to HBP, Draco had spent five years at Hogwarts. He had been exposed to ideas other than his parents' racism. He had encountered Muggleborns. He had been beaten in exams by Hermione. There was plenty of evidence that what he had grown up with wasn't a shining truth -Muggleborns were not inferior, and Draco would have seen that if he had wanted to see. IMO, Draco refused to see this because his racist beliefs gave him instant superiority, without having to do anything to earn it. It didn't matter that Hermione got better grades, because he deserved to be alive, to be magical more than she did. That was why Draco clung to his bigotry, IMO.

I agree that Draco had been exposed to other ideas at Hogwarts, but when you consider that his sidekicks were also the sons of DEs, his Housemaster was also (apparently) a Voldemort supporter, most of his time outside the classroom was spent in the Slytherin Common Room, he wasn't exposed to that much of alternative ideas. Certainly he could see that Hermione was a gifted witch but he seemed to think that a world without her in it would be an improvement judging by his comments when the Chamber was opened and at the Quidditch World Cup. I agree that he didn't want to give up his ideas of pureblood supremacy and Malfoy superiority, because they brought him admiration from those he preferred to consort with.

I think Draco was initially trying to justify the murder to himself. He had previously deluded himself that it wasn't murder if he didn't do it face to face, IMO. But, as MsJPotter suggested earlier, he had figured out that killing someone was a step that couldn't be undone. He didn't want to do it, but he didn't want to fail, either. It's just unfortunate for Ron and Katie that he had to be looking a potential murder victim in the face before he realised it was wrong, and a huge step that can't be taken back.

I'm not entirely sure (but I'm open to persuasion) that Draco was concerned that killing someone couldn't be undone. Or in fact that he had put the label 'murder' on what he was planning to do. Initially I thought he was quite happy with the idea of killing the 'worst headmaster Hogwarts had ever had' and earning himself a bit of glory among the DEs. The harder he found the task the more he panicked because he realised his life was on the line and by extension, those of his parents. Killing Dumbledore indirectly through the necklace and mead didn't seem to worry him, but facing the man he was trying to kill, he found he couldn't pull the trigger. He wasn't the stuff of which assassins are made.


I consider poisoning an attempt at cold-blooded murder. Just because he could avoid looking the victim in the face doesn't make poisoning any less of an attempt at murder. Most courts consider poisoning murder, just as much as shooting someone, as far as I know.

Yes, poisoning is cold blooded murder. The alternative is hot-blooded murder - murder as an immediate response to a situation. I think the difference in Draco's case is not that all the attempts weren't cold-blooded (they were) but that the necklace and mead were killing at a distance and on the Tower he had to kill directly and that's what he couldn't bring himself to do. That's how I see it anyway.

To be honest, I think the difference is love. Sirius never seems to have cared for his mother and likely his father, and thus it was easier to see their views from a more objective standpoint. In Malfoy's situation, I doubt he was ever given any cause to see his parents and wrong, as they raised him lovingly. The other matter is to what extent Draco and Sirius felt the need to gain their parents' approval. As a Slytherin, Draco would have relished making his parents proud, but Sirius may not have had that need, and was comfortable questioning them and fighting them.

I don't think we can say that Sirius didn't care for his mother & father; there always seems to be a tone of bitterness when he speaks about them, and about leaving home, etc. He's still hurt by that, the wound never healed; that indicates to me that Sirius did care about his parents...he just disagreed with their viewpoint on pureblood superiority & the dark arts.

As far as Draco, Narcissa seems to have cared deeply about him, but I'm not sure his father was the same way. The few interactions we see with Draco & Lucius, he's being critical of Draco for some reason; Lucius seems more concerned with how Draco's abilities/behavior will reflect on him (Lucius) and his standing within their circle. Still, Draco seems to care very much what his father thinks and seems to be trying to prove himself to Lucius.

I don't think we can say that Sirius didn't care for his mother & father; there always seems to be a tone of bitterness when he speaks about them, and about leaving home, etc. He's still hurt by that, the wound never healed; that indicates to me that Sirius did care about his parents...he just disagreed with their viewpoint on pureblood superiority & the dark arts.

As far as Draco, Narcissa seems to have cared deeply about him, but I'm not sure his father was the same way. The few interactions we see with Draco & Lucius, he's being critical of Draco for some reason; Lucius seems more concerned with how Draco's abilities/behavior will reflect on him (Lucius) and his standing within their circle. Still, Draco seems to care very much what his father thinks and seems to be trying to prove himself to Lucius.

Well, I suppose it's all in how you see it, with regards to Sirius. It seemed to me that Sirius was indeed bitter, but I always thought he spoke of his upbringing as if he was distinctly ashamed of who his parents were, and always had been. I can't really see Sirius letting his parents toss him away if he looked up to them in any way.

As for Draco, I think you are right. He had equal parts love and motivation from his parents. I think it was the perfect system. He was given the motivation to make his father proud and the positive reinforcement of love from his mother. I would say that however you look at it, the situations of Sirius and Andromeda are markedly different than for Draco.

The main reason I feel it is fair to point the finger at Lucius and Narcissa is that frankly if you remove the parents from the equation, I can't see Draco turning out anywhere near how he did, and I base that on the fact that time and time again he turns down the opportunity to murder. I would think it much more likely that he would turn out to be more like Dudley; selfish and perhaps cowardly, sure, but relatively harmless. Because of his parents, I feel, Draco's character propelled him to an impossibly difficult situation.

[quote=Nnylarak;5741392]
I definitely don't think that Draco's outburst that Arithmancer quotes is a "cover-up" to avoid telling Dumbledore the truth. He's about to kill him, why would he lie about the reason? In fact, if he was so proud of being a Death Eater, there's no reason why he would want Dumbledore to think anything differently of him. As Arithmancer says, I think that this outburst is the real, scared, in-over-his-head Draco coming through.

As I see it Draco is justifying to himself as much as to Dumbledore. He probably was partly the scared-in-over-his head Draco, but part of him was also the calculating-would-be-killer Draco

This isn't the only time that the Malfoys put their family above Voldemort. Narcissa is willing to lie to Voldemort about Harry's death, just to see Draco, and during the Battle of Hogwarts, both of the Malfoys look for Draco instead of fighting. I realize this is a Draco analysis, I'm just saying that it's not out of character for Draco to be extremely concerned for his parents.Narcissa and Lucius' feelings and actions are not Draco's. Yes they care for their son, well we know Narcissa does. But their emotions are not Draco's and neither is their actions. Now I'm not saying that he didn't care about his mother and father, I'm saying the only time we hear that is when he is speaking to Dumbledore on top of the tower.

=FurryDice;5741445]
I think Draco was too fascinated by dangerous items, like the Hand of Glory and the cursed necklace to pay too much heed to what was going on. He wanted power, IMO, he didn't care who he hurt, even at the age of twelve - he wanted to help the Heir of Slytherin, he smirked at the card saying the necklace had claimed nineteen Muggle lives. That doesn't mean he didn't know why good old Dad had dragged him to the shop. The fact that he liked what the shop was selling kind of tells me he knew what was going on even if he didn't pay attention to the actual business transaction.

He lowered his wand a fraction before the other DEs arrived. While it's not a definitive decision, I think he may have been considering Dumbledore's offer. I don't think he wanted to be under Voldemort's thumb anymore, now that he'd figured out it wasn't a life of glory and power. Maybe, it still IMO doesn't constitute making a decision. I think it means at the most like you said, he was thinking it over.

They couldn't do much fighting, even if they wanted to - Narcissa and Lucius no longer had their wands.[staff edit]


=willfitz;5741537]Really, I find the flaw in this argument to be that it fails to take into account the fact that part of Draco's upbringing was learning not to listen to the proponents of equality.Do you think he could turn his hearing on and off? I don't know about you but I find that very hard to do.

I find that knowing that the WW is against the things his father did meant absolutely nothing to Draco, seeing as he had been taught that the WW as a whole was wrong. I know that the majority of the country in which I live believes that I will burn for eternity in a fiery hell, including the Prime Minister, but that doesn't mean that I am inclined to take up their belief system. In perhaps a more fitting example, there are still quite a few racists in the US, even official racist organizations, who are simply brought up that way. Because part of the ideology is to discount the words of anyone who sympathizes with an inferior race, the whole notion of being swayed by the majority is put in a completely different light. This doesn't explain Draco's and his father's attempts to ingratiate themselves with the WW establishment. Draco didn't go to Fudge's box at the Quidditch World Cup and start spouting racist propaganda. He watched his mouth, following his father's example. The racist groups in the US don't usually parade the worst parts about their beliefs in front of ordinary people. They know when to shut up. If you know that your beleifs will offend people and you don't go into the public arena to spout those beliefs then part of you knows that those beliefs are wrong and most people don't like them. Draco was brought up to watch what he was saying and his father advised him to try and get on Harry's good side. Not much practice in standing up for Pureblood Supremacy there. I think Draco knew just how much most people hatd and feared the Death Eaters. He didn't mind being hated that much and I think he just loved being feared.

To put it into simpler terms, imagine being stuck on an island with a dozen 7-year-olds and a physics professor. If the children all build a raft and tell you to come row for them, but the professor tells you that the raft will sink within the hour, would you be inclined to side with the masses, or the person who you feel is probably right? For Draco, as I see it, and indeed for most children to a certain extent, his father was essentially seen in this light. Draco naturally took his ideas into himself as a child, and thus until proven right, everyone who contradicted his father's ideas was by default wrong. What would a bunch of 7 year olds be doing building their own raft with a physics professor around? Where in the books is Draco 7 years old? And finally if the physics professor was anything like Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory I might go with the 7 year olds. Some physics professors don't have the sense of a group of 7 year olds. Some 7 year olds are pretty savvy.

Really, I find the flaw in this argument to be that it fails to take into account the fact that part of Draco's upbringing was learning not to listen to the proponents of equality.

Unfortunately, I can see that a hugely childish, persecution complex like that may have been part of what led some of the pureblood supremacists to the DEs.

To put it into simpler terms, imagine being stuck on an island with a dozen 7-year-olds and a physics professor. If the children all build a raft and tell you to come row for them, but the professor tells you that the raft will sink within the hour, would you be inclined to side with the masses, or the person who you feel is probably right? For Draco, as I see it, and indeed for most children to a certain extent, his father was essentially seen in this light. Draco naturally took his ideas into himself as a child, and thus until proven right, everyone who contradicted his father's ideas was by default wrong.

Except that Draco is more like someone who believed the bunch of seven-year-olds rather than daring to use common sense.


I agree that Draco had been exposed to other ideas at Hogwarts, but when you consider that his sidekicks were also the sons of DEs, his Housemaster was also (apparently) a Voldemort supporter, most of his time outside the classroom was spent in the Slytherin Common Room, he wasn't exposed to that much of alternative ideas. Certainly he could see that Hermione was a gifted witch but he seemed to think that a world without her in it would be an improvement judging by his comments when the Chamber was opened and at the Quidditch World Cup. I agree that he didn't want to give up his ideas of pureblood supremacy and Malfoy superiority, because they brought him admiration from those he preferred to consort with.

There are none so blind as those who will not see, as the saying goes. I think Draco refused to see. He didn't want to acknowledge that his blood didn't make him better than others. I agree on his view of Hermione's right to life - but he could see that she was a talented witch. However, he was kidding himself, looking for excuses so he wouldn't have to acknowledge it. In Borgin and Burkes, he insists that Hermione only beat him because she's a favourite of the teachers. The only classes Draco shared with Hermione in First Year were Potions and Flying Lessons. Hermione didn't excel at flying, and Draco was not living on the same planet as everyone else if he thought Hermione got favouritism from Snape.

I'm not entirely sure (but I'm open to persuasion) that Draco was concerned that killing someone couldn't be undone. Or in fact that he had put the label 'murder' on what he was planning to do. Initially I thought he was quite happy with the idea of killing the 'worst headmaster Hogwarts had ever had' and earning himself a bit of glory among the DEs. The harder he found the task the more he panicked because he realised his life was on the line and by extension, those of his parents. Killing Dumbledore indirectly through the necklace and mead didn't seem to worry him, but facing the man he was trying to kill, he found he couldn't pull the trigger. He wasn't the stuff of which assassins are made.

Perhaps he did - he seemed to draw a distinction between hiding in the shadows to attempt murder and killing Dumbledore face to face. I think it speaks poorly of him that he draws that distinction, and that he didn't realise the reality of what murder was until he was looking an injured man in the face, and expected to AK him. But I think it did occur to him, finally , on the tower, that murder was a big step to take. I agree that he was proud of himself at the beginning, and imagining how important he would be if he succeeded.

Yes, poisoning is cold blooded murder. The alternative is hot-blooded murder - murder as an immediate response to a situation. I think the difference in Draco's case is not that all the attempts weren't cold-blooded (they were) but that the necklace and mead were killing at a distance and on the Tower he had to kill directly and that's what he couldn't bring himself to do. That's how I see it anyway.

Just to clarify, I think it speaks poorly of Draco that he didn't recognise poisoning and the cursed necklace as murder. He was able to do that, but he couldn't kill face to face. Draco drew a distinction between the two, even if a court wouldn't. Or the victims' families, for that matter.

Well, I suppose it's all in how you see it, with regards to Sirius. It seemed to me that Sirius was indeed bitter, but I always thought he spoke of his upbringing as if he was distinctly ashamed of who his parents were, and always had been. I can't really see Sirius letting his parents toss him away if he looked up to them in any way.

Sirius was ashamed of being related to a bunch of racists. I think that's a positive, to be honest. Sirius didn't buy into a belief system that would tell him he was automatically better, in the way that Draco did.

The main reason I feel it is fair to point the finger at Lucius and Narcissa is that frankly if you remove the parents from the equation, I can't see Draco turning out anywhere near how he did, and I base that on the fact that time and time again he turns down the opportunity to murder. I would think it much more likely that he would turn out to be more like Dudley; selfish and perhaps cowardly, sure, but relatively harmless. Because of his parents, I feel, Draco's character propelled him to an impossibly difficult situation.

At what point do people become responsible for their own actions? The same excuse could be applied to Lucius - for generations, his family were bigots. One could even apply that excuse to one as evil as Bellatrix - her family were arrogant racists, convinced that they were "nature's nobility" and "practically royal". Is it unfair then, to hold Bellatrix accountable for her bigotry and her crimes, if the parents are blamed for Draco's bigotry and crimes?

Remember that the thread is about Draco. Please avoid extended comparisons with Sirius/Andromeda/Bellatrix/the giant squid etc.

Well, I suppose it's all in how you see it, with regards to Sirius. It seemed to me that Sirius was indeed bitter, but I always thought he spoke of his upbringing as if he was distinctly ashamed of who his parents were, and always had been. I can't really see Sirius letting his parents toss him away if he looked up to them in any way.
His parents didn't "toss him away" -- Sirius left. It was a decision he made based on his strong disagreement with their philosophy. I think his parents likely did care about him, but there was constant conflict due to their differing beliefs. Draco accepted his parents' belief, so no reason for him to leave.

As for Draco, I think you are right. He had equal parts love and motivation from his parents. I think it was the perfect system. He was given the motivation to make his father proud and the positive reinforcement of love from his mother. I would say that however you look at it, the situations of Sirius and Andromeda are markedly different than for Draco.

The main reason I feel it is fair to point the finger at Lucius and Narcissa is that frankly if you remove the parents from the equation, I can't see Draco turning out anywhere near how he did, and I base that on the fact that time and time again he turns down the opportunity to murder. I would think it much more likely that he would turn out to be more like Dudley; selfish and perhaps cowardly, sure, but relatively harmless. Because of his parents, I feel, Draco's character propelled him to an impossibly difficult situation.
I don't know if it was exactly a perfect system. I think Narcissa cared much more about Draco's well being than Lucius. I don't see that Lucius was supportive of anything Draco accomplished, there was always something to criticize; and while that can be motivating in its own way, I don't see that as being good for Draco. Lucius's criticisms aren't constructive, they're on the sarcastic/condescending side.

I'm not sure taking Draco's parents out of the equation would result in a radically different Draco. At least Narcissa appears to love him more than anything else -- more than Lucius or the DE philosophy to be sure. Even with a DE father & that whole influence, Draco still doesn't seem to be cut from the same cloth, when it comes down to it, he doesn't want to kill anyone or torture them for entertainment. Even in a different family, if they held the view that pureblood is better, Draco may have been essentially the same....the only difference for him would be that he may not have ended up in the untenable situation he had from HBP through DH.

I don't know if it was exactly a perfect system. I think Narcissa cared much more about Draco's well being than Lucius. I don't see that Lucius was supportive of anything Draco accomplished, there was always something to criticize; and while that can be motivating in its own way, I don't see that as being good for Draco. Lucius's criticisms aren't constructive, they're on the sarcastic/condescending side.

I don't think it was a great system, either. I think Lucius expected Draco to achieve, but
hindered Draco's chances of achieving anything by not having Draco earn his achievements - for example, buying Draco's place on the Quidditch team. Also, by throwing money at problems - Draco tossed out his father's name as a solution to problems, rather than solving them himself - writing to his father because of an exaggerated injury in Hagrid's class, claiming a friendship between his father and the OWL examiners.

Even in a different family, if they held the view that pureblood is better, Draco may have been essentially the same....the only difference for him would be that he may not have ended up in the untenable situation he had from HBP through DH.

I agree, that the Malfoys' involvement in the DEs led to Draco's situation in HBP and DH. Without that, he may still have been an arrogant bigot, but not an actual DE, with the task of murdering his headmaster.
I think Draco discovered that he should be careful what he wished for. He got what he wanted, and it wasn't at all what he expected.

I think that Draco's story in HBP was an example of things coming full circle from CoS. In CoS, Draco wanted to help the Heir of Slytherin to attack Muggleborns. In HBP, the Heir of Slytherin himself enlists Draco to murder the defender of Muggleborns. In CoS, Lucius used someone else's child as a pawn to attempt murder, in HBP, Lucius' own child was used as a pawn to attempt murder. And, an added link, it was partially punishment for the Ministry, and partially for the Diary.

At what point do people become responsible for their own actions? The same excuse could be applied to Lucius - for generations, his family were bigots. One could even apply that excuse to one as evil as Bellatrix - her family were arrogant racists, convinced that they were "nature's nobility" and "practically royal". Is it unfair then, to hold Bellatrix accountable for her bigotry and her crimes, if the parents are blamed for Draco's bigotry and crimes?

I'm still wholly in favour of holding Draco accountable, but I find a big difference between Draco's personality and behaviour before he experiences exactly what he's signed up for and after, which is really quite telling to me. With the other examples above, the urge to kill and murder clearly came from within, whereas Draco seemed to do everything in his power to avoid murdering, even when his own life depended on it.

And yes, I do feel that Lucius and Bellatrix were also not fully responsible for how they turned out, because in different circumstances, they could have turned out differently. Frankly, I don't think that anybody is truly 100% in control of their own destiny.

I hear frequent mentions of how things always come down to choices, as if they are the very basis of everything, but what are choices if not the results of thousands of influencing factors?

What would a bunch of 7 year olds be doing building their own raft with a physics professor around?

Well, this is exactly the point, as I'm sure is clear. To Draco, what could possibly have made him want to listen to a bunch of filthy inferiors when there was his father around to tell him what was right and wrong. In light of what he had been taught, there would need to be something to force him to see non-supremacists as worthy of listening to.

I view the whole thing as cyclical; in order for Draco to believe in the message of equality, he would have to be willing to listen to his inferiors, in which case he would have to in many respects view them as equal.

I don't think it was a great system, either. I think Lucius expected Draco to achieve, but hindered Draco's chances of achieving anything by not having Draco earn his achievements - for example, buying Draco's place on the Quidditch team. Also, by throwing money at problems - Draco tossed out his father's name as a solution to problems, rather than solving them himself - writing to his father because of an exaggerated injury in Hagrid's class, claiming a friendship between his father and the OWL examiners.

Yes, Lucius didn't help Draco by being the solution to Draco's problems. Sometimes I even thought he made use of Draco to get at Dumbledore, particularly over Buckbeak. And why did he buy Draco on to the Quidditch team? Was it because Draco persuaded him or because he wanted to show off the power of the Malfoy money? I'm unconvinced that his son's wellbeing was at the front of his actions. However he did seem anxious for Draco in the battle of Hogwarts when Draco's safety was uppermost in his thoughts. Maybe the events of DH (and even HBP) drew the Malfoy family closer together.

I agree, that the Malfoys' involvement in the DEs led to Draco's situation in HBP and DH. Without that, he may still have been an arrogant bigot, but not an actual DE, with the task of murdering his headmaster.
I think Draco discovered that he should be careful what he wished for. He got what he wanted, and it wasn't at all what he expected.

I agree. Draco seemed to admire his father to a considerable degree and wanted to emulate him to make him proud, or that is how I see it. If Lucius hadn't been a DE I don't think Draco would have been so eager to join. As it was, Draco wanted to become a DE like his father once Lucius was imprisoned, taking IMO the family mantle on himself.

I think that Draco's story in HBP was an example of things coming full circle from CoS. In CoS, Draco wanted to help the Heir of Slytherin to attack Muggleborns. In HBP, the Heir of Slytherin himself enlists Draco to murder the defender of Muggleborns. In CoS, Lucius used someone else's child as a pawn to attempt murder, in HBP, Lucius' own child was used as a pawn to attempt murder. And, an added link, it was partially punishment for the Ministry, and partially for the Diary.

I'd never considered it that way - it seems right though.

I'm still wholly in favour of holding Draco accountable, but I find a big difference between Draco's personality and behaviour before he experiences exactly what he's signed up for and after, which is really quite telling to me. With the other examples above, the urge to kill and murder clearly came from within, whereas Draco seemed to do everything in his power to avoid murdering, even when his own life depended on it.

I agree that Draco's behaviour and perhaps personality changed as a result of his experiences in HBP. I'm not so convinced though that he did everything in his power to avoid murdering, as he persisted with his attempts to kill Dumbledore at a distance even after the necklace failed. If he really didn't want to commit murder then he wouldn't have continued with the mead, would he? Dumbledore described these attacks as so feeble he wondered if Draco's heart was really in it, and I think that's a good point. They were dangerous and potentially deadly, but unlikely to succeed in killing Dumbledore.

Well, this is exactly the point, as I'm sure is clear. To Draco, what could possibly have made him want to listen to a bunch of filthy inferiors when there was his father around to tell him what was right and wrong. In light of what he had been taught, there would need to be something to force him to see non-supremacists as worthy of listening to.

I view the whole thing as cyclical; in order for Draco to believe in the message of equality, he would have to be willing to listen to his inferiors, in which case he would have to in many respects view them as equal.

I agree. While other characters may have made different decisions, Draco as written didn't really see the alternatives. By which I don't mean he was compelled into the choices he made so much as he didn't see the alternatives as being of any interest to him.

I agree that Draco's behaviour and perhaps personality changed as a result of his experiences in HBP. I'm not so convinced though that he did everything in his power to avoid murdering, as he persisted with his attempts to kill Dumbledore at a distance even after the necklace failed. If he really didn't want to commit murder then he wouldn't have continued with the mead, would he?

I'm not totally convinced that the efforts weren't concerted, actually. I mean, we don't really know how long the bottle was on Slughorn's shelf, do we?

I'm not totally convinced that the efforts weren't concerted, actually. I mean, we don't really know how long the bottle was on Slughorn's shelf, do we?

True. We can't be completely certain that Draco tried the necklace, saw that it didn't work, and then sent out the mead. He may very well have sent them at around the same time.

I'm not totally convinced that the efforts weren't concerted, actually. I mean, we don't really know how long the bottle was on Slughorn's shelf, do we?

True. We can't be completely certain that Draco tried the necklace, saw that it didn't work, and then sent out the mead. He may very well have sent them at around the same time.

Let's see how viable that theory is.
Katie is attacked on the second weekend before Halloween on the first visit to Hogsmeade. Ron is poisoned on his birthday, 03/01. That's 6 months and what happens slap dab in the middle of those 6 months, Christmas. Christmas was the period when lots of things were being delivered to the castle and Slughorn says that he meant to give it to Dumbledore for Christmas. Slughorn had his Christmas party and presumably he ordered food and drink for the party and that seems to me to be the best time for him to be delivered the mead along with his other goods. All parcels were being checked carefully, but wine and such ordered from Rosemerta for the party may not have been checked as strongly. This is, well in my opinion anyway, the most likely scenario. Now I'm standing aside from Draco in saying this. Let's pretend Draco is as pure as the driven snow, when would the best opportunity for getting a bottle of poisoned wine smuggled into the castle be for anyone? Draco would not have had an opportunity to Imperius Rosemerta before the first excursion into Hogsmeade. Every package, parcel and bundle was being checked afterwards. The only time that the mead could have been sent unnoticed was with the goods being delivered to the castle at Christmas.
That is my theory anyway.

Let's see how viable that theory is.
Katie is attacked on the second weekend before Halloween on the first visit to Hogsmeade. Ron is poisoned on his birthday, 03/01. That's 6 months and what happens slap dab in the middle of those 6 months, Christmas. Christmas was the period when lots of things were being delivered to the castle and Slughorn says that he meant to give it to Dumbledore for Christmas. Slughorn had his Christmas party and presumably he ordered food and drink for the party and that seems to me to be the best time for him to be delivered the mead along with his other goods. All parcels were being checked carefully, but wine and such ordered from Rosemerta for the party may not have been checked as strongly. This is, well in my opinion anyway, the most likely scenario. Now I'm standing aside from Draco in saying this. Let's pretend Draco is as pure as the driven snow, when would the best opportunity for getting a bottle of poisoned wine smuggled into the castle be for anyone? Draco would not have had an opportunity to Imperius Rosemerta before the first excursion into Hogsmeade. Every package, parcel and bundle was being checked afterwards. The only time that the mead could have been sent unnoticed was with the goods being delivered to the castle at Christmas.
That is my theory anyway.

I agree with your timing. However Draco must have Imeriussed Rosmerta before the Hogsmeade trip as she gave the necklace to Katie then, and Draco was safely in detention at the time. Draco controlled Rosmerta by means of the protean coin as I understand it.

On the other hand, Slughorn would almost certainly have ordered mead for his party, so the chances of one particular bottle getting to Dumbledore would have been incredibly low. Even Draco in his panic could have figured that! So I reckon Slughorn must have ordered the mead for Dumbledore separately and had it delivered separately (although still before Christmas) and I'd imagine Filch would have let a bottle for Slughorn through without arguing. Well, he did. Draco must have been really puzzled when Christmas passed and neither Dumbledore nor anyone else had died. He didn't know Slughorn well not being in the Slug Club and probably never thought he might keep it for himself.

I think I can help solve the timing mystery. When Draco is on the Astronomy Tower he tells Dumbledore.

"I got the idea of poisoning the mead from the Mudblood Granger, as well, I heard her talking in the library about Filch not recognising potions.."(HBP, The Lightening Struck Tower)

Draco overhears Hermione talking to Harry in the library in Chapter 15, "The Unbreakable Vow", which is after Katie has been cursed by the necklace.

I think I can help solve the timing mystery. When Draco is on the Astronomy Tower he tells Dumbledore.

"I got the idea of poisoning the mead from the Mudblood Granger, as well, I heard her talking in the library about Filch not recognising potions.."(HBP, The Lightening Struck Tower)

Draco overhears Hermione talking to Harry in the library in Chapter 15, "The Unbreakable Vow", which is after Katie has been cursed by the necklace.

Ok. lets look at the time line in detail. The trio spot Draco and his mother in Diagon Alley, and the necklace is first mentioned. That was 08/03.
09/01 they go back to school.
10/12 or 19 Trip to Hogwarts, Katie is nearly killed by the necklace.
12/19 Harry and Hermione talk in library and Draco overhears them and gets the idea about smuggling in the poisoned mead.
12/20 Slughorn's Christmas party and Snape catches Draco 'wandering' around the corridors.
I think from the timeline which I have double checked with the book and HP Lexicon so I think I've got the dates straight. I think it's pretty clear Draco for a period of at least 5 months, August through December tried by indirect means twice to kill Dumbledore. This says to me at least that he did not have that many qualms about trying murder out. He had problems facing his victim and killing him. Especially when that victim was twisting him up with logic.

I think I can help solve the timing mystery. When Draco is on the Astronomy Tower he tells Dumbledore.

"I got the idea of poisoning the mead from the Mudblood Granger, as well, I heard her talking in the library about Filch not recognising potions.."(HBP, The Lightening Struck Tower)

Draco overhears Hermione talking to Harry in the library in Chapter 15, "The Unbreakable Vow", which is after Katie has been cursed by the necklace.

Good catch!

Well, Draco overheard Hermione the day before Slughorn's party and they went home the day after that, so Draco must have been quick off the mark to get the mead poisoned. I wonder how he knew Slughorn was planning to give it to Dumbledore? I suppose he must have got that info from Rosmerta but it would have been a longish conversation to hold with coins. And if there weren't many people left at Hogwarts over Christmas I suppose he would expect the mead not to get to anyone but Dumbledore or possibly Slughorn.

Good catch!

Well, Draco overheard Hermione the day before Slughorn's party and they went home the day after that, so Draco must have been quick off the mark to get the mead poisoned. I wonder how he knew Slughorn was planning to give it to Dumbledore? I suppose he must have got that info from Rosmerta but it would have been a longish conversation to hold with coins. And if there weren't many people left at Hogwarts over Christmas I suppose he would expect the mead not to get to anyone but Dumbledore or possibly Slughorn.

I think Draco probably got Rosemerta to do a lot of the actual physical part of it. He could get her to poison the mead and include it with the stuff for Slughorn's party. It wouldn't take long for Rosemerta apperate to Daigon Alley or even floo down there and back. Send it and the other stuff up to the castle. Draco may have been wandering around to get the mead and take it to Dumbledore. That sounds likely to me.

I think from the timeline which I have double checked with the book and HP Lexicon so I think I've got the dates straight. I think it's pretty clear Draco for a period of at least 5 months, August through December tried by indirect means twice to kill Dumbledore.

Yeah, from all this I can certainly see that he did try two attempts. That is two attempts in five months, though, and with his life hanging in the balance. I find this to be neither persistent nor callous. Frankly, I find that his second plan was much better thought out and less likely to never reach his target, which shows, to me, that he had learned his lesson from the first instance, because this time, intervention would need to be a conscious thing, whereas with the necklace, it could be touched by accident, as was indeed the case. I don't believe that Draco was perfectly fine with having collateral damage, because if he was, he would surely have made more than two attempts, hoping that one would hit by law of averages.

This says to me at least that he did not have that many qualms about trying murder out.

I would find this to be a pretty poor time to judge Draco on this matter. Qualms tend to disappear fairly quickly in most people when their life is on the line, but for the exceptionally brave, which I think is generally agreed was not Draco. I would say that Draco had no qualms with trying to avoid his own death at all costs, nothing more.

He had problems facing his victim and killing him. Especially when that victim was twisting him up with logic.

Heh, the "logic" Dumbledore was twisting him up with the him telling him he didn't have the heart to kill him. This was not a cause for Draco not to be able to kill him, but an effect. Draco never had to listen to a word Dumbledore said, that choice lay with him.

I think Draco probably got Rosemerta to do a lot of the actual physical part of it. He could get her to poison the mead and include it with the stuff for Slughorn's party. It wouldn't take long for Rosemerta apperate to Daigon Alley or even floo down there and back. Send it and the other stuff up to the castle. Draco may have been wandering around to get the mead and take it to Dumbledore. That sounds likely to me.

I agree Rosmerta would have had to put poison in the mead. However I don't think it could have been sent up with Slughorn's party drinks as he would undoubtedly have served mead at his party - it seems a popular drink. I suppose the bottle intended for Dumbledore could have been gift-wrapped or something but I think it would have been risky to include it with the other order. I think Draco would have got her to send it after the students had left - thus ensuring he wouldn't be connected with it.

[QUOTE=willfitz;5742078]Yeah, from all this I can certainly see that he did try two attempts. That is two attempts in five months, though, and with his life hanging in the balance. I find this to be neither persistent nor callous. Frankly, I find that his second plan was much better thought out and less likely to never reach his target, which shows, to me, that he had learned his lesson from the first instance, because this time, intervention would need to be a conscious thing, whereas with the necklace, it could be touched by accident, as was indeed the case. I don't believe that Draco was perfectly fine with having collateral damage, because if he was, he would surely have made more than two attempts, hoping that one would hit by law of averages.

If he wasn't fine with collateral damage he would never have sent a bottle of poisoned wine into the castle to be intercepted. There was no opportunity after Christmas to mount another attack, also there was a bottle of poisoned wine somewhere, Draco did not know if it had reached Dumbledore or not till after Ron was poisoned.

I would find this to be a pretty poor time to judge Draco on this matter. Qualms tend to disappear fairly quickly in most people when their life is on the line, but for the exceptionally brave, which I think is generally agreed was not Draco. I would say that Draco had no qualms with trying to avoid his own death at all costs, nothing more.

This might be something to consider if you believed Draco had qualms about trying to kill his headmaster and did give a fig about the collateral damage that might be caused in his attempts. I don't believe he had any qualms. His qualms surfaced after two failed attempts and IMO, suddenly he realises that he was on the fast rack to failure and Voldemort does not tolerate failure well.


Heh, the "logic" Dumbledore was twisting him up with the him telling him he didn't have the heart to kill him. This was not a cause for Draco not to be able to kill him, but an effect. Draco never had to listen to a word Dumbledore said, that choice lay with him.

OooohKaaaay, I don't understand a word of what you have there.


I agree Rosmerta would have had to put poison in the mead. However I don't think it could have been sent up with Slughorn's party drinks as he would undoubtedly have served mead at his party - it seems a popular drink. I suppose the bottle intended for Dumbledore could have been gift-wrapped or something but I think it would have been risky to include it with the other order. I think Draco would have got her to send it after the students had left - thus ensuring he wouldn't be connected with it.

It was Dumbledore's favourite and seems to be considered a connoisseurs wine. I think it likely that Slughorn knew what it was and simply 'forgot' to send it to Dumbledore. And then there is Draco who just happens to be 'wandering' around the vicinity of the party. Perhaps he was looking for a bottle of expensive mead?

I'm still wholly in favour of holding Draco accountable, but I find a big difference between Draco's personality and behaviour before he experiences exactly what he's signed up for and after, which is really quite telling to me. With the other examples above, the urge to kill and murder clearly came from within, whereas Draco seemed to do everything in his power to avoid murdering, even when his own life depended on it.

It seems to me that Draco is not being held accountable if his prejudices and crimes are blamed on his upbringing. It was a factor, but he chose to continue to buy into it.


And yes, I do feel that Lucius and Bellatrix were also not fully responsible for how they turned out, because in different circumstances, they could have turned out differently. Frankly, I don't think that anybody is truly 100% in control of their own destiny.

But circumstances are what they are. It's how a person deals with them and responds to them that tells what they're like. If one keeps passing the buck, who is going to hold people like Bellatrix and Lucius accountable for their actions?

I hear frequent mentions of how things always come down to choices, as if they are the very basis of everything, but what are choices if not the results of thousands of influencing factors?

How are they choices, if it's pre-determined? If, because of his background, Draco had no choice to be anything other than a bigot and a DE, according to this theory? That negates the idea of choices, IMO, and casts Draco and his fellow racist criminals as helpless victims of fate.

Well, this is exactly the point, as I'm sure is clear. To Draco, what could possibly have made him want to listen to a bunch of filthy inferiors when there was his father around to tell him what was right and wrong. In light of what he had been taught, there would need to be something to force him to see non-supremacists as worthy of listening to.

But the evidence of his own life experience should have shown him that they were not inferior - he was continually beaten at Quidditch by a half-blood, in class by a Muggleborn. IMO, he chose not to see these things, because he was too comfortable with his prejudices. IMO, Draco held on to the prejudices, because they said exactly what he wanted to hear.

Yes, Lucius didn't help Draco by being the solution to Draco's problems. Sometimes I even thought he made use of Draco to get at Dumbledore, particularly over Buckbeak. And why did he buy Draco on to the Quidditch team? Was it because Draco persuaded him or because he wanted to show off the power of the Malfoy money? I'm unconvinced that his son's wellbeing was at the front of his actions. However he did seem anxious for Draco in the battle of Hogwarts when Draco's safety was uppermost in his thoughts. Maybe the events of DH (and even HBP) drew the Malfoy family closer together.

Will reply in the Lucius thread.

I agree. While other characters may have made different decisions, Draco as written didn't really see the alternatives. By which I don't mean he was compelled into the choices he made so much as he didn't see the alternatives as being of any interest to him.

That's how I see it - Draco was too comfortable with a bigotry that told him he was better, just because. It meant he didn't have to do anything to be better, he just was better by virtue of wizarding blood. I think he was all too happy to believe that.

Yeah, from all this I can certainly see that he did try two attempts. That is two attempts in five months, though, and with his life hanging in the balance. I find this to be neither persistent nor callous.

Two attempts at murder is not something callous? :eeep:


If he wasn't fine with collateral damage he would never have sent a bottle of poisoned wine into the castle to be intercepted. There was no opportunity after Christmas to mount another attack, also there was a bottle of poisoned wine somewhere, Draco did not know if it had reached Dumbledore or not till after Ron was poisoned.

I agree - anyone could have drank the wine. It's common for people to share drinks, especially alcoholic drinks, it's more common than sitting alone with a drink, IMO. Draco knew about manners and how to behave socially (with the people that "mattered"), he would be aware that offering someone a drink was part of social interactions.

If he wasn't fine with collateral damage he would never have sent a bottle of poisoned wine into the castle to be intercepted.

Right, exactly. Because he wasn't fine with collateral damage, his plan worked harder the second time to minimize the possibility of it. It would appear to me that the bottle being intercepted could not logically have been part of his plan, and indeed it was never intercepted so much as hijacked by Slughorn's greed.

This might be something to consider if you believed Draco had qualms about trying to kill his headmaster and did give a fig about the collateral damage that might be caused in his attempts. I don't believe he had any qualms. His qualms surfaced after two failed attempts and IMO, suddenly he realises that he was on the fast rack to failure and Voldemort does not tolerate failure well.

Ah, but if his only concern was his fear of failure and retribution, then surely his priority upon getting a clear shot at Dumbledore would have been to end his mission successfully, and with minimal delay, thus avoiding the possibility of failure. It would seem that another concern must have been at play to prevent him from killing Dumbledore when he had the best opportunity which anyone could ever ask for.

OooohKaaaay, I don't understand a word of what you have there.

OooohKaaaay, then, I'll try again. Essentially, it seems as though the argument in the previous post was that Draco was stopped by Dumbledore "twisting him up with logic." All that Dumbledore told him was that he had a perfect opportunity to kill him, and that he didn't think Draco was willing to do so. If we both consider what Dumbledore was saying to be logic, and I for one do, then it would appear that we are in agreement that Draco was not a willing murderer.

How are they choices, if it's pre-determined? If, because of his background, Draco had no choice to be anything other than a bigot and a DE, according to this theory? That negates the idea of choices, IMO, and casts Draco and his fellow racist criminals as helpless victims of fate.

Aren't we all victims of fate to some degree? If our character and our life are based on our choices, and I know that this is a very common idea, and our choices reflect all of the influences in our life, and there is substantial evidence and case study to back this up, then really, I find that a large part of who we are is based on external influences. I am typing something here, and all who read it will have an opinion on it, but is that opinion based solely on yourself, or is in motivated to some degree by the way you were raised and the experiences you have undergone in your life? Is it not true that occasionally we go through things in life which completely shift our whole perspective on an issue?

What you say is true, though, Draco's personality was one where he was very willing to accept the teachings of his father, and project them onto the world. Now, given his parents, this turned out to be a bad thing, whereas with Sirius, the opposite mindset, one where he was sceptical of his parents' views and wont to challenge them, turned out to be a good thing. Imagine, though, if the two had been in families where generosity, equality and kindness were the mantra. Would the opposite effect not have been seen?

I don't want to simplify their characters too much, and I'll grant that I probably have just done so, but it is just an example.

Anyway, yes, Draco does deserve to be held accountable, but this is a judgement of character, not a criminal trial. Sometimes people are brought up against the law to be held accountable even though they are generally considered to be a good person. I want to get away from this blurring of the line between holding someone accountable and evaluating their true character.

But the evidence of his own life experience should have shown him that they were not inferior - he was continually beaten at Quidditch by a half-blood, in class by a Muggleborn. IMO, he chose not to see these things, because he was too comfortable with his prejudices. IMO, Draco held on to the prejudices, because they said exactly what he wanted to hear.

Yes, but that was never what it was about. How many Nazis bought into anti-Semitism despite the success and affluence of many Jews in their society.

Two attempts at murder is not something callous? :eeep:

I could go either way on this one, actually. The fact is that we don't always consider attempts at murder to be callous- in fact, sometimes we find them heroic.

With regards to Draco, I see a boy who never really knew what it was he was being asked to do. First, he just was trying to do it for glory and reward, then he was doing it to save himself, and then he was on the lightning-struck tower, finally faced with the task itself, faced with the reality of the deed, and he shows himself to be quite perturbed with the thought of ending life. His unwillingness to kill Dumbledore shows a lack of callousness in that particular incident, and I really see that carried over to the Malfoy Manor affair.

So, to go back on my word, I would have to agree that he was a bit callous during HBP, I was wrong to deny it, but I find that a large part of that was ignorance. He was very willing to do his duty for Voldemort, strive for glory and self-preservation, but when he realized what that actually meant, I think that he hit a barrier in what sort of a person he was. Pardon me if I am in a bit of a muddle, I'm having trouble putting this in words.

I suppose I mean to say that for him, he felt like he was doing the right thing until suddenly he found out that it was wrong. The positives- the chance to make everyone proud and fight for the values in which he believed, followed by his family's lives- outweighed the thought of killing until he stared death in the face, and I find that that really swung the balance.

True. We can't be completely certain that Draco tried the necklace, saw that it didn't work, and then sent out the mead. He may very well have sent them at around the same time.

He most likely did. SLughorn intended the bottle as a Christmas present, so he would have bought it before Christmas. Katie was not that much before Christmas.

[QUOTE]

Col,d be, not disputing it so much as pointing out it could be just as likely be that Draco is playing up to Dumbledore. He really does not want to tell Dumbledore that he planned on killing him to get in good with Voldemort does he? But he had to have some reason that has some kind of sense to it so out comes the family card.

You've stated this opinion before. Could you explain on what basis you think Draco felt a need to "play up" to Dumbledore? It seems to me (and I have tried to explain the basis in the text of my opinion) that

1) Draco did not try to play up to Dumbledore, he on the contrary tried to depict himself as a true DE, and
2) he certainly had no need to, he held the winning hand in that scene if he really was the true DE he claimed.

I think that this quote:
But circumstances are what they are. It's how a person deals with them and responds to them that tells what they're like.

And this one:
I agree. While other characters may have made different decisions, Draco as written didn't really see the alternatives. By which I don't mean he was compelled into the choices he made so much as he didn't see the alternatives as being of any interest to him.

Pretty much sums up what I feel Draco's function in the story was. I think that Draco's parents thought they were training him up to swim with the Big Fish, but really they just pushed him in to a pool full of sharks. Draco has always wanted their dream, until he gets it. But then he never quite manages to do anything decisive one way or the other after Dumbledore's offer, just to stay on Voldemort's side. In Malfoy manor he appears to me to be waffling, but he won't jump into a lie to save anybody, or attempt to help them when he has the chance; he just hems and haws, not quite identifying them but not lying about their identities either, and not helping with an escape when he goes down to get Griphook for Bellatrix. I think it is meant to be a contrast to Harry:

But he understood at last what Dumbledore had been trying to tell him. It was, he thought, the difference between being dragged into the arena to face a battle to the death and walking into the arena with your head held high. Some people, perhaps, would say that there was little to choose between the two ways, but Dumbledore knew--and so do I, thought Harry, and so did my parents-- that there was all the difference in the world.

I think Draco discovered the hard way that doing evil things just wasn't as fun as he thought it would be, but he still can't bring himself to commit to doing anything to fight Voldemort either. Draco just never makes that breakthrough in character. And I think it is a moment of beauty that the ownership of the Elder Wand comes down to a tussle between the boy who decides to fight for right and good no matter the cost and the boy who can't decide anything. I think Draco ends the war much the same way he began it in HBP, working to aid Voldemort without enjoying it, because he never quite takes that step to choose something different. I think he couldn't see where the alternatives would take him, so he stuck to the familiar.

[QUOTE=arithmancer;5742361]He most likely did. SLughorn intended the bottle as a Christmas present, so he would have bought it before Christmas. Katie was not that much before Christmas.

The attack on Katie happened either on the 12 or the 19th of October. 3 1/2 months, one whole quarter of a year, do you usually term 16/17 weeks as a short period? I think it is quite a sizable spell myself.

You've stated this opinion before. Could you explain on what basis you think Draco felt a need to "play up" to Dumbledore? It seems to me (and I have tried to explain the basis in the text of my opinion) that

1) Draco did not try to play up to Dumbledore, he on the contrary tried to depict himself as a true DE, and
2) he certainly had no need to, he held the winning hand in that scene if he really was the true DE he claimed.

Sure I think he was playing up to Dumbledore, that is what I think his boasting about his accomplishments and justyfing his attempts to kill Dumbledore was. A form of playing up. He played up the aspect that he had to kill Dumbledore or his parents would be killed. The first time he mentions his parents to anyone. He certainly wasn't mentioning them to Myrtle.

=OldMotherCrow;5742389]Pretty much sums up what I feel Draco's function in the story was. I think that Draco's parents thought they were training him up to swim with the Big Fish, but really they just pushed him in to a pool full of sharks. Draco has always wanted their dream, until he gets it. But then he never quite manages to do anything decisive one way or the other after Dumbledore's offer, just to stay on Voldemort's side. In Malfoy manor he appears to me to be waffling, but he won't jump into a lie to save anybody, or attempt to help them when he has the chance; he just hems and haws, not quite identifying them but not lying about their identities either, and not helping with an escape when he goes down to get Griphook for Bellatrix. I think it is meant to be a contrast to Harry:

It probably is meant to stand in contrast to Harry who never changes his path or has trouble making a decsion and stickig to it. Draco just can't bring himself to decide one way or another.

I think Draco discovered the hard way that doing evil things just wasn't as fun as he thought it would be, but he still can't bring himself to commit to doing anything to fight Voldemort either. Draco just never makes that breakthrough in character. And I think it is a moment of beauty that the ownership of the Elder Wand comes down to a tussle between the boy who decides to fight for right and good no matter the cost and the boy who can't decide anything. I think Draco ends the war much the same way he began it in HBP, working to aid Voldemort without enjoying it, because he never quite takes that step to choose something different. I think he couldn't see where the alternatives would take him, so he stuck to the familiar.

I think part of it was he was on his own. He had to come up with a plan and then make it work. He also had to deal with the reality of commiting murder. There was no Daddy in the background to pull strings and smooth his way. Crabbe and Goyle were nt that helpful and I think the strain of this must have contributed to his 'breakdown' and self pity

He most likely did. SLughorn intended the bottle as a Christmas present, so he would have bought it before Christmas. Katie was not that much before Christmas.

Katie was cursed on the Hogwarts trip before Halloween. If Draco as he said to Dumbledore overheard Hermione saying bottles could get past Filch and that inspired him to send the mead, he couldn't have done that more than 24 hours before Slughorn's party which was on the last day of term. (He heard Hermione the day before the party). That's quite a gap.

I think Draco discovered the hard way that doing evil things just wasn't as fun as he thought it would be, but he still can't bring himself to commit to doing anything to fight Voldemort either. Draco just never makes that breakthrough in character. And I think it is a moment of beauty that the ownership of the Elder Wand comes down to a tussle between the boy who decides to fight for right and good no matter the cost and the boy who can't decide anything. I think Draco ends the war much the same way he began it in HBP, working to aid Voldemort without enjoying it, because he never quite takes that step to choose something different. I think he couldn't see where the alternatives would take him, so he stuck to the familiar.

I agree.


I think part of it was he was on his own. He had to come up with a plan and then make it work. He also had to deal with the reality of commiting murder. There was no Daddy in the background to pull strings and smooth his way. Crabbe and Goyle were nt that helpful and I think the strain of this must have contributed to his 'breakdown' and self pity

I think there's a lot of truth in that. Despite all his talk in earlier books, Draco hadn't had to put any of it into action before. He had relied heavily on his father previously but with his father in Azkaban he was out there on his own, and I think the reality of what being a DE involved scared him. Since he'd never had to stand on his own two feet before it was very much more difficult than he had expected. He was only 16 and although Harry had gone through an amazing amount by 16, Draco had led a pretty sheltered life until then and I think he found life as a DE more than he could cope with.

Right, exactly. Because he wasn't fine with collateral damage, his plan worked harder the second time to minimize the possibility of it. It would appear to me that the bottle being intercepted could not logically have been part of his plan, and indeed it was never intercepted so much as hijacked by Slughorn's greed.

I think collateral damage was simply irrelevant to Draco. He wasn't trying to harm anyone other than Dumbledore, but he didn't care who he hurt getting to Dumbledore. I think Hermione was correct on that. He could not have anticipated Slughorn keeping the bottle, and offering it to Ron and Harry. But, common sense would tell him that Dumbledore might share the wine with others. A staff toast for Christmas or New Year, as just two possibilities.

Aren't we all victims of fate to some degree? If our character and our life are based on our choices, and I know that this is a very common idea, and our choices reflect all of the influences in our life, and there is substantial evidence and case study to back this up, then really, I find that a large part of who we are is based on external influences.

So, no character is responsible for their own actions? :hmm: Choices are built on both experiences and how a person responds to them, IMO. Not everybody with the same upbringing is going to make the same choices - Sirius and Regulus; Bellatrix, Narcissa, Andromeda; the Weasley siblings. Same parents, different personalities, priorities, paths in life.

I could go either way on this one, actually. The fact is that we don't always consider attempts at murder to be callous- in fact, sometimes we find them heroic.

IMO, in Draco's case, they are callous, and in no way heroic. How can it be heroic to hide behind an unwilling accomplice to murder someone from a distance?

With regards to Draco, I see a boy who never really knew what it was he was being asked to do. First, he just was trying to do it for glory and reward, then he was doing it to save himself, and then he was on the lightning-struck tower, finally faced with the task itself, faced with the reality of the deed, and he shows himself to be quite perturbed with the thought of ending life.

Unfortunately for Ron and Katie, he didn't figure out that murder was a huge step until he was face to face with a prospective victim. From a distance, I think, he could ignore the reality.

So, to go back on my word, I would have to agree that he was a bit callous during HBP, I was wrong to deny it, but I find that a large part of that was ignorance. He was very willing to do his duty for Voldemort, strive for glory and self-preservation, but when he realized what that actually meant, I think that he hit a barrier in what sort of a person he was. Pardon me if I am in a bit of a muddle, I'm having trouble putting this in words.

Ignorance has led human beings to their lowest points, as it did with Draco and his fellow racists. IMO, Draco's was a wilful ignorance.
And his ideas of glory serving Voldemort show a disturbing lack of empathy, IMO - did he ever consider "how would I feel if it were my parents being murdered?" Not until that was a real possibility, it seems, in canon.


In Malfoy manor he appears to me to be waffling, but he won't jump into a lie to save anybody, or attempt to help them when he has the chance; he just hems and haws, not quite identifying them but not lying about their identities either, and not helping with an escape when he goes down to get Griphook for Bellatrix. I think it is meant to be a contrast to Harry:

I think this is the only way Draco could help. He didn't have the courage to get off the fence and do anything decisive. He didn't want to face the consequences of either course of action, it seems to me.

I like the idea that it's meant as a contrast to Harry. In a way, it's also a contrast to every student in the DA who opposed the Carrows, and later Voldemort. Draco's peers, who got off the fence and stood for something.

I think there's a lot of truth in that. Despite all his talk in earlier books, Draco hadn't had to put any of it into action before. He had relied heavily on his father previously but with his father in Azkaban he was out there on his own, and I think the reality of what being a DE involved scared him. Since he'd never had to stand on his own two feet before it was very much more difficult than he had expected. He was only 16 and although Harry had gone through an amazing amount by 16, Draco had led a pretty sheltered life until then and I think he found life as a DE more than he could cope with.

I've often thought that when his father was sent to Azkaban, this was the turning point in his life. He definitely relies on him, because Lucius was always telling him what to do, and strictly. If Draco's parents hadn't contaminated his mind with ideas about pureblood vs. muggle born, then he really wouldn't have those ideas at all. I think most of this comes from Lucius though, as he seems more agressive about it.

And not only was Draco scared about his Death Eater issues, he also probably feared his father's fate. Draco isn't Voldemort, so I suppose there was something of a bond between Lucius and Draco. I really think Draco must have been worried that his father might die.

Draco's character is much more prominent in HBP. Because of all this stress, with the Death Eaters, Voldemort, his tasks that he must accomplish, and only having his mother for support (which is occasional anyway) you can see he's falling apart. And at this point, a lot of people start to feel bad for him, like me. You can just see how weak he's becoming, and I mean, he's crying in the bathroom! Aww!!

Ok, I'm done with that. ;) But, my point is, his father being sent to jail rather than his mother had a different effect on him. I think he had more of a bond with Lucius. So, just a random question, What if Narcissa had gone to Azkaban in HBP? Of course this won't necessarily ease Draco's stress levels, but I do think he would have been effected differently.

I think collateral damage was simply irrelevant to Draco. He wasn't trying to harm anyone other than Dumbledore, but he didn't care who he hurt getting to Dumbledore. I think Hermione was correct on that. He could not have anticipated Slughorn keeping the bottle, and offering it to Ron and Harry. But, common sense would tell him that Dumbledore might share the wine with others. A staff toast for Christmas or New Year, as just two possibilities.

I agree collateral damage was irrelevant to Draco. In fact his efforts were fairly unlikely to hit the target, especially the necklace. If he was expecting Katie, or whoever, to get the package past Filch's probe, wander up to Dumbledore's office without the password, give Dumbledore an anonymous package, expect Dumbledore to open it and pick up a necklace, well, he was dreaming. It wasn't going to happen however he looked at it. It was much more likely that Rosmerta, Katie or Filch would be the injured ones, as Katie indeed was. It all smacks of desperation to me.

However when he got as far as the mead it seemed to me he'd thought it out a bit better. No-one would be hurt by handling the bottle and as he didn't really know Slughorn (he didn't go to Slug Club meetings) he wouldn't know that Sluggy was quite likely to keep it for himself. If the bottle got to Dumbledore there was a good chance he'd drink from it. That he might offer a drink to someone else as well wouldn't IMO have worried Draco, so long as Dumbledore died. And so long as Dumbledore died a few more bodies on the way were immaterial.


So, no character is responsible for their own actions? :hmm: Choices are built on both experiences and how a person responds to them, IMO. Not everybody with the same upbringing is going to make the same choices - Sirius and Regulus; Bellatrix, Narcissa, Andromeda; the Weasley siblings. Same parents, different personalities, priorities, paths in life.

I agree with what you are saying, but it occurred to me when I looked at your list of other people that they all had siblings. Draco was an only one, a pampered little prince, spoiled by his parents and unchallenged by his friends. His response to the life he had experienced was to want it to continue because as he saw it, it was the best. He is, of course, responsible for his actions and choices as most people are, but his awareness of the alternatives to his actions and choices may well not have been obvious to him, given his background.

IMO, in Draco's case, they are callous, and in no way heroic. How can it be heroic to hide behind an unwilling accomplice to murder someone from a distance?

Heroism isn't exactly part of Draco's character, is it? The only remotely heroic thing I can think of him doing in all 7 books was his trying to rescue Goyle from the Fiendfyre, which seemed so out of character that it has led in itself to a lot of discussion. Cowardice seems a stronger trait and that is what I think it is when he hides, as you say, behind an unwilling accomplice to kill without having to do the deed himself. I don't think it is cowardice that stops him from killing Dumbledore on the Tower though - cowardice would have led him to take Dumbledore's life if his own was as much at risk as he seemed to think it was. Mind you, it wasn't courage either - more sitting on the fence and hoping something would happen so he didn't have to do it. Or so I think.

I think this is the only way Draco could help. He didn't have the courage to get off the fence and do anything decisive. He didn't want to face the consequences of either course of action, it seems to me.

I like the idea that it's meant as a contrast to Harry. In a way, it's also a contrast to every student in the DA who opposed the Carrows, and later Voldemort. Draco's peers, who got off the fence and stood for something.

Well said!

[QUOTE=horcrux4;5743153]
However when he got as far as the mead it seemed to me he'd thought it out a bit better. No-one would be hurt by handling the bottle and as he didn't really know Slughorn (he didn't go to Slug Club meetings) he wouldn't know that Sluggy was quite likely to keep it for himself. If the bottle got to Dumbledore there was a good chance he'd drink from it. That he might offer a drink to someone else as well wouldn't IMO have worried Draco, so long as Dumbledore died. And so long as Dumbledore died a few more bodies on the way werQUOTE]

Yeah, I actually agree with this. Draco wasn't stupid and he learnt from the necklace. Not a lesson I would want any of my kids to learn.

I like the idea that it's meant as a contrast to Harry. In a way, it's also a contrast to every student in the DA who opposed the Carrows, and later Voldemort. Draco's peers, who got off the fence and stood for something.

I don't think contrasting them on this dimension works in light of the events in the series. Draco, too, got off the fence and stood for something, by becoming a Death Eater, a member of Voldemort's inner circle. It may not be a something we approve of, but I would say it is a something. :)

The difference is that standing for Draco's something turned out to require crossing lines Draco was not, when it came down to it, wanting to cross.

I disagree the necklace was more dangerous than the mead. It would not have been a threat to Rosmerta, because it was safely wrapped up, either because Rosmerta knew how to handle it, or because this is how it was delivered to her by whoever bought it from Borgin. It became a danger to Katie and her friend because they tore the packaging it in the struggle that ensued when Katie told her she got the package. If Katie had brought the package to the gates to be inspected by Filch, I presume the sensors he had would have detected it, so he would have summoned help. (Which makes this a fairly lame first effort, IMO; he had not yet thought a way around Filch at this point!)

I've often thought that when his father was sent to Azkaban, this was the turning point in his life. He definitely relies on him, because Lucius was always telling him what to do, and strictly. If Draco's parents hadn't contaminated his mind with ideas about pureblood vs. muggle born, then he really wouldn't have those ideas at all. I think most of this comes from Lucius though, as he seems more agressive about it.

I agree Lucius is more forceful about anti-Muggleborn actions- he joined the DEs, after all, so he could put it into practice. However, Narcissa is of the Ancient and Most Noble House of Black. She was raised to think pureblood was vastly superior. And she was looking down her nose at Hermione both at the World Cup and at Madam Malkins. I think she would have let her son know who was "worthy" :rolleyes: and who wasn't, quite as much as Lucius. Except, not as aggressively, I imagine.

Ok, I'm done with that. ;) But, my point is, his father being sent to jail rather than his mother had a different effect on him. I think he had more of a bond with Lucius.

:hmm: I thought Draco was closer to Narcissa. Lucius seems to be more distant. I think Narcissa is the glue that holds that family unit together, its strongest and smartest member. Lucius may have been too proud to go to Snape for help, if Narcissa had been imprisoned.

I agree collateral damage was irrelevant to Draco. In fact his efforts were fairly unlikely to hit the target, especially the necklace. If he was expecting Katie, or whoever, to get the package past Filch's probe, wander up to Dumbledore's office without the password, give Dumbledore an anonymous package, expect Dumbledore to open it and pick up a necklace, well, he was dreaming. It wasn't going to happen however he looked at it. It was much more likely that Rosmerta, Katie or Filch would be the injured ones, as Katie indeed was. It all smacks of desperation to me.

It had practically no chance of getting to Dumbledore. It was far likelier that the person harmed would be one of the innocent patsies involved.

I agree with what you are saying, but it occurred to me when I looked at your list of other people that they all had siblings. Draco was an only one, a pampered little prince, spoiled by his parents and unchallenged by his friends. His response to the life he had experienced was to want it to continue because as he saw it, it was the best. He is, of course, responsible for his actions and choices as most people are, but his awareness of the alternatives to his actions and choices may well not have been obvious to him, given his background.

I was making the point that parents and background don't mean one is certainly going to turn out in a particular way. But, for an example of an only child - how about Barty Crouch Jr.? He certainly went against his upbringing.
If Draco wasn't aware of alternatives to bigotry and malice, it was wilful ignorance, IMO.


Heroism isn't exactly part of Draco's character, is it?

No, I don't think it is, either. I was responding to a post suggesting that murder attempts are sometimes considered heroic.

I don't think it is cowardice that stops him from killing Dumbledore on the Tower though - cowardice would have led him to take Dumbledore's life if his own was as much at risk as he seemed to think it was. Mind you, it wasn't courage either - more sitting on the fence and hoping something would happen so he didn't have to do it. Or so I think.

I think that's a good point. It was neither courage nor cowardice that Draco didn't kill Dumbledore. He simply didn't want to choose. I think he didn't want to fail, but nor did he want to take this ultimate step. (I think it speaks poorly of him that he didn't consider murder from a distance the same ultimate step). In that way, yes, he does want to sit on the fence.

The difference is that standing for Draco's something turned out to require crossing lines Draco was not, when it came down to it, wanting to cross.

He was quite willing to cross that line until he was face to face with a potential victim. Before that, he knew that his attempts could cost lives. Perhaps he told himself it didn't count, because it wasn't Avada Kedavra, he wasn't looking at them when it happened? :shrug:

I disagree the necklace was more dangerous than the mead. It would not have been a threat to Rosmerta, because it was safely wrapped up, either because Rosmerta knew how to handle it, or because this is how it was delivered to her by whoever bought it from Borgin. It became a danger to Katie and her friend because they tore the packaging it in the struggle that ensued when Katie told her she got the package. If Katie had brought the package to the gates to be inspected by Filch, I presume the sensors he had would have detected it, so he would have summoned help. (Which makes this a fairly lame first effort, IMO; he had not yet thought a way around Filch at this point!)

Leanne was unsurprisingly concerned that Katie was acting strangely, and she wasn't going to let her friend bring a mysterious wrapped object along. She did what any concerned friend would have done. It became a danger to Katie when Draco decided to use a student as a mule for his murder weapon, not when Leanne tried to keep a friend from bringing a mysterious object with her, in the middle of a war.
If Katie had managed to get as far as the castle, Filch may well have opened it, when he confiscated it. There's no guarantee that he would have sent for one of the professors.

Draco was willing to risk many lives, on the off-chance that this cursed necklace would get to Dumbledore.

I think collateral damage was simply irrelevant to Draco. He wasn't trying to harm anyone other than Dumbledore, but he didn't care who he hurt getting to Dumbledore.

It is possible that he didn't think about collateral damage, ignoring it as it were, it is possible that he did and didn't care, and it is also possible that he felt badly that Katie and Ron got harmed, but still was not willing to die to keep others safe. I do really think that Draco was acting out of desperation, and thus I am inclined to believe the third option, but I don't know if we see enough of Draco to make that call either way.

So, no character is responsible for their own actions? :hmm: Choices are built on both experiences and how a person responds to them, IMO.

Sure, but like I said, how the person responds to a situation is motivated by the person's past experiences and current circumstances, so why are we treating how Draco responded as the fundemental basis for our assessment? To do so cuts off our perspective and obliges us to look only at the effect rather than the cause of Draco's actions. I would ask when limiting our perspective and picking and choosing what to take into account has ever given us a clearer view of anything?

It is for this reason that I flat out refuse to ignore Draco's parents and just look at what he did, as if it gives a more accurate view of Draco's personality.

IMO, in Draco's case, they are callous, and in no way heroic. How can it be heroic to hide behind an unwilling accomplice to murder someone from a distance?

I agree that it wasn't heroic, and indeed that Draco was never heroic, but I was just objecting to the statement that someone setting their mind to murder must by default be callous and inhuman.

Unfortunately for Ron and Katie, he didn't figure out that murder was a huge step until he was face to face with a prospective victim. From a distance, I think, he could ignore the reality.

Indeed, I feel he relied on ignorance. Until he actually stood face to face, I think he associated killing his inferiors as a justifiable deed, as it was work towards the ideal society envisioned by all of those to whom he admired most. And how could he have been expected to know better, right? He did not know death, or suffering, or emotional pain to any great extent.

Ignorance has led human beings to their lowest points, as it did with Draco and his fellow racists. IMO, Draco's was a wilful ignorance.
And his ideas of glory serving Voldemort show a disturbing lack of empathy, IMO - did he ever consider "how would I feel if it were my parents being murdered?" Not until that was a real possibility, it seems, in canon.

Actually, he probably did, and felt that it was a good thing. A muggle feeling anguish and loss was a lesson learned, but a pureblood feeling the same thing was a sad thing to behold. This is one of the ways in which his parents would have distorted his mind. It would be easy to condemn Draco if we assume his upbringing had no effect on how he saw the world, of course, but I feel that that is unlikely.

I agree Lucius is more forceful about anti-Muggleborn actions- he joined the DEs, after all, so he could put it into practice. However, Narcissa is of the Ancient and Most Noble House of Black. She was raised to think pureblood was vastly superior. And she was looking down her nose at Hermione both at the World Cup and at Madam Malkins. I think she would have let her son know who was "worthy" :rolleyes: and who wasn't, quite as much as Lucius. Except, not as aggressively, I imagine.

Ooh right, I forgot about that. So yes, I think the main point here is that both Draco's parents really enforced the pureblood - Slytherin ideas. If only one of his parents was like that, then he would have had a choice. But in his situation, he really didn't.


:hmm: I thought Draco was closer to Narcissa. Lucius seems to be more distant. I think Narcissa is the glue that holds that family unit together, its strongest and smartest member. Lucius may have been too proud to go to Snape for help, if Narcissa had been imprisoned.


And, that, I think is a big issue with Lucius. He's so introverted and he has problems, yet he doesn't do anything about them. I think for Draco his mother is a better role model. I really don't like Lucius or Narcissa, though. I suppose Draco probably bonded with his father, that's just how it seems to me. For some reason, I remember him taking more advice from Lucius in the books. I don't know if there's anything to support that though. And also, Lucius was, to a certain extent, proud to be a Death Eater, at least for some time. (More proud than Narcissa ever was.) He was cowardly, but I think some of that rubbed off on Draco. Until, of course, the events in HBP.

It is possible that he didn't think about collateral damage, ignoring it as it were, it is possible that he did and didn't care, and it is also possible that he felt badly that Katie and Ron got harmed, but still was not willing to die to keep others safe. I do really think that Draco was acting out of desperation, and thus I am inclined to believe the third option, but I don't know if we see enough of Draco to make that call either way.

On the tower, Draco boasted about what he had done. That suggests to me that he did not feel at all bad that Katie and Ron were injured. Their lives did not matter, because they did not matter to Draco. There's nothing at all that suggests Draco felt bad about what happened to Ron, or Katie, or Rosmerta.


Sure, but like I said, how the person responds to a situation is motivated by the person's past experiences and current circumstances, so why are we treating how Draco responded as the fundemental basis for our assessment? To do so cuts off our perspective and obliges us to look only at the effect rather than the cause of Draco's actions. I would ask when limiting our perspective and picking and choosing what to take into account has ever given us a clearer view of anything?

It is for this reason that I flat out refuse to ignore Draco's parents and just look at what he did, as if it gives a more accurate view of Draco's personality.

Draco' upbringing had an effect, but I don't think it excuses his crimes. It explains his actions, partially. But Draco's choosing not to think for himself is a part of his character. I think that is also relevant - unlike Sirius, Draco was too weak, too comfortable in his prejudices to think for himself, to see what was in front of his eyes. Draco's own weakness and arrogance is a factor, as much as the inherited prejudice from his parents, IMO.

Indeed, I feel he relied on ignorance. Until he actually stood face to face, I think he associated killing his inferiors as a justifiable deed, as it was work towards the ideal society envisioned by all of those to whom he admired most. And how could he have been expected to know better, right? He did not know death, or suffering, or emotional pain to any great extent.

Nor did Ron and Hermione, but they didn't try to murder anyone in cold blood. A person doesn't need to experience grief to know that murder is wrong. Draco's ignorance doesn't excuse his actions. It explains a lot, but it doesn't minimise or excuse his crimes, IMO.

Actually, he probably did, and felt that it was a good thing. A muggle feeling anguish and loss was a lesson learned, but a pureblood feeling the same thing was a sad thing to behold. This is one of the ways in which his parents would have distorted his mind. It would be easy to condemn Draco if we assume his upbringing had no effect on how he saw the world, of course, but I feel that that is unlikely.

Either way is disturbing, IMO. If he thought that it was a good thing to cause suffering to Muggles/Muggleborns/blood traitors, it suggests he was on the way to becoming as sadistic as his Aunt Bellatrix. Much as I have a low opinion of Draco, I don't think that is the case. I think he never cared that he was hurting others. It never occurred to him that they might actually have feelings, too.

Ooh right, I forgot about that. So yes, I think the main point here is that both Draco's parents really enforced the pureblood - Slytherin ideas. If only one of his parents was like that, then he would have had a choice. But in his situation, he really didn't.

I don't feel comfortable with the idea that he didn't have a choice. One of the biggest themes in HP is choice. Why should Draco and his fellow DEs have had "no choice"? Other characters are responsible for their own actions, the same should apply to DEs, IMO. Draco didn't want to consider alternatives, because he was too comfortable with his prejudices. The choices were there, Draco didn't want to consider them.

And, that, I think is a big issue with Lucius. He's so introverted and he has problems, yet he doesn't do anything about them.

I wouldn't say Lucius is introverted - he's well able to talk and pay his way out of trouble, and get what he wants from the Minister, the board of governors, the Disposal of Dangerous Creatures Committee, possibly the Wizengamot, after the first war. Lucius has plenty of problems, but I can't see introversion as one of them.

On the tower, Draco boasted about what he had done. That suggests to me that he did not feel at all bad that Katie and Ron were injured. Their lives did not matter, because they did not matter to Draco. There's nothing at all that suggests Draco felt bad about what happened to Ron, or Katie, or Rosmerta.

Right, but the way I read it, he was not so much boasting for Dumbledore's benefit as for his own. It seems as though he was simply trying to steel himself, to convince himself that he could kill Dumbledore. His 'boast' was in response to Dumbledore telling him he couldn't do it, and thus I see his words as more of a defence than an offence.

Draco' upbringing had an effect, but I don't think it excuses his crimes. It explains his actions, partially. But Draco's choosing not to think for himself is a part of his character.

Indeed, I quite agree. However, choosing not to think for himself never meant that he would turn out to to terrible things until his parents were added into the equation. That is why the parenting is so very relevant, I feel. The fact that he never questioned his parents didn't make him do terrible things, rather the fact that his parents taught terrible things did. If his parents had been like the Weasleys, he likely would have been a model citizen.

Nor did Ron and Hermione, but they didn't try to murder anyone in cold blood. A person doesn't need to experience grief to know that murder is wrong. Draco's ignorance doesn't excuse his actions. It explains a lot, but it doesn't minimise or excuse his crimes, IMO.

I find Ron and Hermione to be incomparable because they were influenced against murder rather than in favour of it, as Draco was. The point is that Draco was told one thing by the parents whom he habitually took at their word, and had no reason to oppose it from his experiences. Ron and Hermione were taught the opposite, and had no reason to oppose it from their experiences, and thus the opposite result is observed. It seems logical to me.

Either way is disturbing, IMO. If he thought that it was a good thing to cause suffering to Muggles/Muggleborns/blood traitors, it suggests he was on the way to becoming as sadistic as his Aunt Bellatrix. Much as I have a low opinion of Draco, I don't think that is the case. I think he never cared that he was hurting others. It never occurred to him that they might actually have feelings, too.

Truly it is disturbing, I would never argue against that. It is often disturbing how humanity works. How people can believe certain things simply on here-say from their parents, how cultures can have certain practices which we may find to be awful and inhumane, but does that mean that anyone who participates that culture must by nature be a bad egg? I would disagree completely.

I think that Draco was willing to believe that it was a good thing to cause suffering to Muggles/Muggleborns/blood traitors because he was brought up to see Voldemort's ends as ideal. However, I think his nature got in the way of that, as he really found that it was not something he was willing to do.

On the tower, Draco boasted about what he had done. That suggests to me that he did not feel at all bad that Katie and Ron were injured. Their lives did not matter, because they did not matter to Draco. There's nothing at all that suggests Draco felt bad about what happened to Ron, or Katie, or Rosmerta.
For me, it's necessary to establish that he was boasting. I know what his words were, but I've pulled out four narrative descriptions of his manner during the conversation.

"Malfoy looked as though he was fighting down the urge to shout, or to vomit."

"Malfoy's mouth contorted involuntarily, as though he had tasted something very bitter."

"[...] his wand hand shaking very badly indeed."

"Malfoy did not speak. His mouth was open, his wand hand still trembling."
Does this seem like a boy triumphantly retelling his accomplishments, or a boy hanging by a thread who really doesn't want to be there? When I'm boasting I'm not about to vomit, I'm not contorted, I don't lose my voice, and I definitely don't shake badly.

For me, it's necessary to establish that he was boasting. I know what his words were, but I've pulled out four narrative descriptions of his manner during the conversation.


Does this seem like a boy triumphantly retelling his accomplishments, or a boy hanging by a thread who really doesn't want to be there? When I'm boasting I'm not about to vomit, I'm not contorted, I don't lose my voice, and I definitely don't shake badly.

I felt as though Draco was boasting to bolster his courage. He did seem fearful to me. I don't see that he felt any sympathy for his victims, though-- at least, I don't see him either express or show any at any time.

I felt as though Draco was boasting to bolster his courage. He did seem fearful to me. I don't see that he felt any sympathy for his victims, though-- at least, I don't see him either express or show any at any time.
I would like to ask, and I mean this sincerely: how might he have shown or expressed sympathy in that situation? And more to the point, why would he have? His victims weren't present, and he had rather pressing concerns on his mind, did he not?

I honestly don't understand how Draco, sick and terrified as he was, with truly dangerous and horrible people right behind him, responding factually to direct questions from Dumbledore, would have originated some expression of regret. To be perfectly honest, I think some of the people demanding that he ought to have expressed remorse would only now be dismissing it as insincere if he had.

I would like to ask, and I mean this sincerely: how might he have shown or expressed sympathy in that situation? And more to the point, why would he have? His victims weren't present, and he had rather pressing concerns on his mind, did he not?

Any way the author wished to had she chosen to have him express regret, I suppose. I think one can have regrets and sympathy even when one's victims (other than Dumbledore) are not present, and I think book characters often express important feelings if they are important to the characterization. The way I look at it, Draco having sympathy for his victims was simply not part of the story, before this point, at this point, or after this point. I do think he expresses fear for himself and his family, and unhappiness that doing evil things didn't turn out to be as fun and profitable as he thought it would.

I honestly don't understand how Draco, sick and terrified as he was, with truly dangerous and horrible people right behind him, responding factually to direct questions from Dumbledore, would have originated some expression of regret. To be perfectly honest, I think some of the people demanding that he ought to have expressed remorse would only now be dismissing it as insincere if he had.

You may decide some people possess theoretical unexpressed viewpoints if you wish, but I don't think it would lead to a logical discourse.

Any way the author wished to had she chosen to have him express regret, I suppose. I think one can have regrets and sympathy even when one's victims (other than Dumbledore) are not present, and I think book characters often express important feelings if they are important to the characterization. The way I look at it, Draco having sympathy for his victims was simply not part of the story, before this point, at this point, or after this point. I do think he expresses fear for himself and his family, and unhappiness that doing evil things didn't turn out to be as fun and profitable as he thought it would.

Many things are not part of the story. True, in order to believe that Draco had remorse takes a certain amount of interpretation, but so does Draco being proud of nearly killing students. We never have a scene of Draco expressing his lack of concern over the events, nor is it possible to prove that his actions were motivated by an enjoyment in causing harm rather than an extreme fear of his own and his family's doom.

JKR did not actually put into words Draco feeling bad about hurting students, but to suggest that that means it can't have existed relies on us knowing how JKR writes and how she intends her writing to be perceived. What is in the text is Draco shaking and acting uncomfortably when talking about his previous attempts at murder.

However, choosing not to think for himself never meant that he would turn out to do terrible things until his parents were added into the equation. That is why the parenting is so very relevant, I feel. The fact that he never questioned his parents didn't make him do terrible things, rather the fact that his parents taught terrible things did. If his parents had been like the Weasleys, he likely would have been a model citizen.

After I read DH, it occured to me that Draco is in a way a "dark side" version of James Potter. There is some similarity in their behavior as schoolboys, as well as in their background/class (both wealthy Purebloods, both only children). And we see both, already, emulating their respective fathers on the train to Hogwarts, to opposite effect.

JKR did not actually put into words Draco feeling bad about hurting students, but to suggest that that means it can't have existed relies on us knowing how JKR writes and how she intends her writing to be perceived. What is in the text is Draco shaking and acting uncomfortably when talking about his previous attempts at murder.

I think Rowling does try to tell us, in the only way her narrative voice permits, that Draco is not acting willingly. She tells us what Harry is thinking about him. In the end of HBP, she has Harry wonder about Draco, and what Voldemort may be making him do. In DH, she shows us a scene (through Harry's connection with Voldemort) in which Draco is torturing a prisoner under direct threat from Voldemort.

I honestly don't understand how Draco, sick and terrified as he was, with truly dangerous and horrible people right behind him, responding factually to direct questions from Dumbledore, would have originated some expression of regret.
:tu: I agree that if Draco was ever to express regret then the top of the tower was certainly not the right time or place. What I got from HBP regarding Draco was that he was very much under pressure and not feeling up to the task of killing Dumbledore. Not only that but I got the impression that he really didn't want to be trying to kill anyone.

I also don't think that Draco was thinking very much in terms of feeling remorse for nearly causing the deaths of Katie and Ron, and I really can't blame him for that given that he had a murderous psychopath breathing down his neck. I think he was more concerned about firstly surviving himself and secondly the safety of his family. I think it is important to remember that Voldemort intended Draco to fail the task. He intended to then kill Draco as a punishment of Lucius - this was why Narcissa came to Snape because she knew that Draco was in very real and very serious danger. In HBP Draco's life was more in danger than Harry's and IMO we are shown him very much on the edge. Remember that he is befriended by Moaning Murtle - that alone most show how desperate he was!

Indeed, I quite agree. However, choosing not to think for himself never meant that he would turn out to to terrible things until his parents were added into the equation. That is why the parenting is so very relevant, I feel. The fact that he never questioned his parents didn't make him do terrible things, rather the fact that his parents taught terrible things did. If his parents had been like the Weasleys, he likely would have been a model citizen.

I think it is very relevant that he didn't question what he was taught. He saw evidence with his own eyes that Muggleborns were not some subhuman entity. He chose to ignore this, he chose not to think. IMO, it is relevant that he never thought for himself - Sirius and Andromeda both thought for themselves, and saw common sense rather than irrational prejudice. IMO, Draco enjoyed telling himself that he was superior, for no reason other than his parentage, and so he ignored anything that suggested his prejudices were rubbish.

Truly it is disturbing, I would never argue against that. It is often disturbing how humanity works. How people can believe certain things simply on here-say from their parents, how cultures can have certain practices which we may find to be awful and inhumane, but does that mean that anyone who participates that culture must by nature be a bad egg? I would disagree completely.

It wasn't a whole culture that participated in the DEs' crimes. It was a small section of the population, a small group of genocidal bigots who chose to act in that way. Engaging in hate-crimes does mean one is a bad egg, IMO.

I felt as though Draco was boasting to bolster his courage. He did seem fearful to me. I don't see that he felt any sympathy for his victims, though-- at least, I don't see him either express or show any at any time.

That's how I see it, too. Draco was boasting about his deeds to convince himself that he could do it. That doesn't mean that he secretly felt bad about almost murdering two fellow students, and using a woman under the Imperius as an accomplice. There's nothing to suggest that he secretly felt bad about it. It seems the only thing he felt bad about was his own situation, and that of his parents.

I honestly don't understand how Draco, sick and terrified as he was, with truly dangerous and horrible people right behind him, responding factually to direct questions from Dumbledore, would have originated some expression of regret.

Draco and Dumbledore were speaking for some time before the "dangerous and horrible people" he wanted to be a part of showed up behind him.

Any way the author wished to had she chosen to have him express regret, I suppose. I think one can have regrets and sympathy even when one's victims (other than Dumbledore) are not present, and I think book characters often express important feelings if they are important to the characterization. The way I look at it, Draco having sympathy for his victims was simply not part of the story, before this point, at this point, or after this point. I do think he expresses fear for himself and his family, and unhappiness that doing evil things didn't turn out to be as fun and profitable as he thought it would.

I agree - the injured party doesn't need to be present in order for a wrongdoer to feel guilt. I think Draco's only concern was for himself and his parents. Other peoples' lives were unimportant. I think he found out the hard way that serving a genocidal maniac didn't guarantee you'd never be in his bad books.




I don't think Draco enjoyed causing harm to Ron, Katie and Rosmerta. I think he simply didn't care about them. He didn't care what harm he caused to them, IMO.

[QUOTE=arithmancer;5744292]After I read DH, it occured to me that Draco is in a way a "dark side" version of James Potter. There is some similarity in their behavior as schoolboys, as well as in their background/class (both wealthy Purebloods, both only children). And we see both, already, emulating their respective fathers on the train to Hogwarts, to opposite effect.

Honestly, I see many, many more differences than similarities. Plus, the reader is shown nothing about James Potter's father, so I don't know how that comparison can be made.

I also don't think that Draco was thinking very much in terms of feeling remorse for nearly causing the deaths of Katie and Ron, and I really can't blame him for that given that he had a murderous psychopath breathing down his neck.

The murderous psychopath he wanted to follow. The murderous psychopath whose return he crowed about.

I think it is very relevant that he didn't question what he was taught. He saw evidence with his own eyes that Muggleborns were not some subhuman entity. He chose to ignore this, he chose not to think. IMO, it is relevant that he never thought for himself - Sirius and Andromeda both thought for themselves, and saw common sense rather than irrational prejudice. IMO, Draco enjoyed telling himself that he was superior, for no reason other than his parentage, and so he ignored anything that suggested his prejudices were rubbish.

It wasn't as though his parents had been teaching him that he would be better than muggleborns at all of his endeavours, that muggleborns were unable to succeed in life because they were muggleborns, such that Hermione's brains posed a direct contradiction to such notions. At least, from the way I see it, racism and prejudice is never about that, otherwise it would not exist.

Nay, it seems that the pureblood supremacists most likely adopted a much less logical tack- not that the muggleborns are our inferiors because we succeed where they fail, but rather that the muggleborns are our inferiors because they are muggleborns. Hard to find evidence to counteract that.

It wasn't a whole culture that participated in the DEs' crimes. It was a small section of the population, a small group of genocidal bigots who chose to act in that way. Engaging in hate-crimes does mean one is a bad egg, IMO.

Indeed, but since when has being part of a minority ever been a big factor in swaying people's beliefs? Especially in such cases where an "us against the inferior, foolish world" mantra is applicable.

The definition of hate-crime really depends on what you believe, anyway. Many nations have participated in large-scale hate crimes at one point in time, primarily endorsed by the majority of its people. Targeting a certain group could appear to be for the greater good depending on your beliefs and views, and I'm sure that it did to Draco for the greater part of his young life.

I think it is very relevant that he didn't question what he was taught. He saw evidence with his own eyes that Muggleborns were not some subhuman entity. He chose to ignore this, he chose not to think.
I've seen this stated before, but I don't think it really connects. We readers have seen evidence that Muggleborns are not inferior, but that doesn't mean Draco ever had any reason to. The way you're putting it, I think, Draco's prejudice is akin to a mistaken solution to a math problem that he can correct simply by checking his arithmetic. But it's bigotry. By definition the evidence that it is absurd is rationalized and ignored, or it would not longer exist as an ideology.

IMO, it is relevant that he never thought for himself - Sirius and Andromeda both thought for themselves, and saw common sense rather than irrational prejudice. IMO, Draco enjoyed telling himself that he was superior, for no reason other than his parentage, and so he ignored anything that suggested his prejudices were rubbish.
Actually, the way you've put it here, I see little operative difference between Draco and Sirius. Sirius undoubtedly believed himself superior to blood purity fanatics, or he wouldn't have so soundly rejected them. He admits that he had an affinity for his aunt Andromeda, and so perhaps (from the Black family point of view) she poisoned Sirius against good sense in much the same way Bellatrix likely corrupted Draco from our point of view.

I've said it before and I'll repeat it now: unless we actually look at the matter from Draco's point of view, it's just our own value judgments telling us Draco did everything wrong. For quite a long time he thought he was right.

I've seen this stated before, but I don't think it really connects. We readers have seen evidence that Muggleborns are not inferior, but that doesn't mean Draco ever had any reason to. The way you're putting it, I think, Draco's prejudice is akin to a mistaken solution to a math problem that he can correct simply by checking his arithmetic. But it's bigotry. By definition the evidence that it is absurd is rationalized and ignored, or it would not longer exist as an ideology.


Actually, the way you've put it here, I see little operative difference between Draco and Sirius. Sirius undoubtedly believed himself superior to blood purity fanatics, or he wouldn't have so soundly rejected them. He admits that he had an affinity for his aunt Andromeda, and so perhaps (from the Black family point of view) she poisoned Sirius against good sense in much the same way Bellatrix likely corrupted Draco from our point of view.

I've said it before and I'll repeat it now: unless we actually look at the matter from Draco's point of view, it's just our own value judgments telling us Draco did everything wrong. For quite a long time he thought he was right.

Little operative difference betwenn Draco and Sirius - to me that does not seem fair to Sirius who was never shown to be bigoted like Draco and it was never shown IMO that Sirius thought himself superior to other people. I certainly do not recall ever hearing Sirius use the word Mudblood a word Draco threw around several times. Sirius had a well defined sense of right and Draco did not he was just weak and bigoted like his parents. Draco chose the easy path and wanted fame and glory and to be Voldemorts favourite whereas Sirius rejected all notions of pureblood bigotry and prejudice and refused to be a part of anthing to do with Voldemorts regime. IMO Bellatrix did not corrupt Draco he chose to behave the way he did and he chose to accept the task of killing Dumbledore.

This is the Draco thread, not the Sirius thread, so can we have less of the compare and contrast, please?

Also, please can all of you remember to mark opinions as such and back them up with text where possible? Thanks.

I've seen this stated before, but I don't think it really connects. We readers have seen evidence that Muggleborns are not inferior, but that doesn't mean Draco ever had any reason to. The way you're putting it, I think, Draco's prejudice is akin to a mistaken solution to a math problem that he can correct simply by checking his arithmetic. But it's bigotry. By definition the evidence that it is absurd is rationalized and ignored, or it would not longer exist as an ideology.

I've said it before and I'll repeat it now: unless we actually look at the matter from Draco's point of view, it's just our own value judgments telling us Draco did everything wrong. For quite a long time he thought he was right.

I so agree with you. To understand Draco's character and actions we have to put aside our own concepts of right and wrong and try to see where he was coming from. Not easy for most of us when we can see that the Order and its associates are clearly right and the DEs clearly wrong. We have to try to see why Draco thought the DEs were right, and here IMO we are back to the influence and teaching of his family.

In CoS, Binns, talking about Slytherin said "Slytherin wished to be more selective about the students admitted to Hogwarts. He believed that magical learning should be kept within all-magic families. He disliked taking students of Muggle parentage, believing them to be untrustworthy." So anti Muggleborn bigotry goes back a long way, and evidently hadn't died out by Harry's time. Interestingly, Slytherin didn't object to Muggleborns because they were magically inferior but because they were 'untrustworthy'. If this thread of Slytherin's ideology had come down to the Malfoys, then Draco conceivably thought Mudbloods not necessarily magically inferior, but inferior beings. Hence his attitude to Hermione, despite her obvious ability with magic. It was not uncommon for wizards to see themselves as superior to Muggles (Dumbledore and Grindelwald were going that way) and it certainly seems the Malfoys felt that way. They despised 'blood traitors' like the Weasleys and Dumbledore, and Draco had picked up this attitude from them as far as I can see. With that background, the choices he made and the way his character developed seem almost inevitable.

I so agree with you. To understand Draco's character and actions we have to put aside our own concepts of right and wrong and try to see where he was coming from. Not easy for most of us when we can see that the Order and its associates are clearly right and the DEs clearly wrong. We have to try to see why Draco thought the DEs were right, and here IMO we are back to the influence and teaching of his family.


This is definitely the only way anyone can see Draco (or any character's opinions they might disagree with): stepping into their shoes & thinking about their personal circumstances. Draco's views on Muggle-born inferiority were ground into him from a very young age (as seen in PS, where Draco has already begun to make some offensive-sounding comments at only 11, & in PoA, stooping to call Hermione a Mudblood). This is not unlike the concept of children learning to accept/agree with racism at a young age. Just like racism, pure-blood superiority was still an issue in the modern Wizarding world, & it looks as though this has been an outstandgin feature in many families for centuries. It was almost as if Draco had no choice but to agree, those ideas were presented to him as absolute fact from early childhood, thus there was almost no way he'd ever form a different opinion, despite others telling him he was wrong. In his eyes, Draco was always right. It was the way he'd grown up, thus, there was no other way that could be true. Which is why Draco easily agreed with all their pure-blood opinions, & I honestly do not think he really made much of a decision when he became a DE. By then his opinions had concretely formed & I doubt he would have ever said no.

:tu: I agree that if Draco was ever to express regret then the top of the tower was certainly not the right time or place. What I got from HBP regarding Draco was that he was very much under pressure and not feeling up to the task of killing Dumbledore. Not only that but I got the impression that he really didn't want to be trying to kill anyone.

I agree, IMO, he almost seems shocked that Dumbledore knew about his first two murder attempts. I almost feel like he was hoping to get caught on some level so that he wouldn't have to go through with it. And better to be caught & punished by Dumbledore then Voldermort.

I so agree with you. To understand Draco's character and actions we have to put aside our own concepts of right and wrong and try to see where he was coming from. Not easy for most of us when we can see that the Order and its associates are clearly right and the DEs clearly wrong. We have to try to see why Draco thought the DEs were right, and here IMO we are back to the influence and teaching of his family.

I completely agree with this. :tu: I think looking at the decisions that were made and analyzing why they may have been chosen yields more information and greater understanding of a character.

I feel that while Draco's decisions are often deplorable and foolish, they are also quite understandable considering his background. Not only was his family prejudiced for generations, his father also had the respect of the WW at large, including the most powerful man in the Wizarding government, Cornelius Fudge. Lucius also appears to cover his back by giving large sums to charities. (GoF, 36) His family wasn't being visibly punished for their beliefs about Muggles, but was instead rewarded with money and connections.

I honestly do not think he really made much of a decision when he became a DE. By then his opinions had concretely formed & I doubt he would have ever said no.

While I do agree that Draco would probably not have said no to Voldemort, I do think there was a deciding moment for him: the moment Lucius landed in prison. At that point, the Harry and Draco rivalry had already erupted, and I think Draco felt that Harry was at fault for Lucius' imprisonment. IMO, he in fact states as much when he says he will make Harry "pay for what you've done to my father." I believe a part of Draco's decision to become a DE was influenced by his desire for revenge against Harry.

I think it is very relevant that he didn't question what he was taught. He saw evidence with his own eyes that Muggleborns were not some subhuman entity. He chose to ignore this, he chose not to think. IMO, it is relevant that he never thought for himself - Sirius and Andromeda both thought for themselves, and saw common sense rather than irrational prejudice. IMO, Draco enjoyed telling himself that he was superior, for no reason other than his parentage, and so he ignored anything that suggested his prejudices were rubbish.

I agree with you that that is very relevent to Draco's characterization. I think many characters were able to see beyond their teachings to question what they learned and come to their own conclusions. That Draco struggles with this I think shows his reluctance to leave his comfort zone. I don't think he wanted to examine whether or not what his family had taught him was true or right. I think the brutality of the situation that he eventually found himself in forced him to realize he should have been wary of what he wished for, but he still never manages to break free of the situation either mentally or physically, in my opinion.

Many things are not part of the story. True, in order to believe that Draco had remorse takes a certain amount of interpretation, but so does Draco being proud of nearly killing students. We never have a scene of Draco expressing his lack of concern over the events, nor is it possible to prove that his actions were motivated by an enjoyment in causing harm rather than an extreme fear of his own and his family's doom.

JKR did not actually put into words Draco feeling bad about hurting students, but to suggest that that means it can't have existed relies on us knowing how JKR writes and how she intends her writing to be perceived. What is in the text is Draco shaking and acting uncomfortably when talking about his previous attempts at murder.

I think it was because he "sneered" and "taunted" when talking about the previous attempts at murder and controlling Rosmerta that I didn't find him expressing sympathy for his victims. To me Draco did seem fearful of actual death. He seemed disturbed that he had to step over a body to get up to the Tower. Gibbon might have been the first dead person that Draco had ever seen. Perhaps Draco might have been more remorseful for what he did to Katie and Ron if death had been a consequence. I'm not sure if he felt it counted if they were only harmed and not killed. I think it was Death, so immediate there on the Tower, that had Draco rattled.

I agree with you that that is very relevent to Draco's characterization. I think many characters were able to see beyond their teachings to question what they learned and come to their own conclusions. That Draco struggles with this I think shows his reluctance to leave his comfort zone. I don't think he wanted to examine whether or not what his family had taught him was true or right. I think the brutality of the situation that he eventually found himself in forced him to realize he should have been wary of what he wished for, but he still never manages to break free of the situation either mentally or physically, in my opinion.


I think you are right that Draco had no desire to leave his comfort zone (which was very comfortable for him). His is not generally shown to be a strong character IMO, and he leans on his father and his father's reputation to a considerable degree. To turn away from his family's ideals, even from his parents, would have needed a strength of character that Draco doesn't show. His early rejection of friendship by Harry IMO took away one of the few things that could have changed his attitudes - with Harry as a friend, he could have learned some different ways of thinking. As it was, he was surrounded at school by friends who largely thought as he did and so he had no inspiration to change, even had he wanted to.

I think it was because he "sneered" and "taunted" when talking about the previous attempts at murder and controlling Rosmerta that I didn't find him expressing sympathy for his victims. To me Draco did seem fearful of actual death. He seemed disturbed that he had to step over a body to get up to the Tower. Gibbon might have been the first dead person that Draco had ever seen. Perhaps Draco might have been more remorseful for what he did to Katie and Ron if death had been a consequence. I'm not sure if he felt it counted if they were only harmed and not killed. I think it was Death, so immediate there on the Tower, that had Draco rattled.

Glancing back at the scene myself, I never see the words "sneer" and "taunt," but I may have been looking at the wrong part. Draco is seen as talking about saying things "more forcefully" and "vehemently" when talking about his previous attempts, but that could be taken as desperation and self-defiance.

Glancing back at the scene myself, I never see the words "sneer" and "taunt," but I may have been looking at the wrong part. Draco is seen as talking about saying things "more forcefully" and "vehemently" when talking about his previous attempts, but that could be taken as desperation and self-defiance.

(When Dumbledore mentioned the necklace & mead) "Yeah, well, you still didn't realise who was behind that stuff, did you?" sneered Malfoy as Dumbledore slid a little down the ramparts.
<>
"..Of course... Rosmerta. How long has she been under the Imperius curse?"
"Got there at last have you?" Malfoy taunted.

It doesn't seem to me that the sneering & taunting is connected so much with the victims of the attempts at poisoning or with Rosmerta, so much as aimed at Dumbledore himself. It looks as though Draco is trying to work himself up into a state where he can kill Dumbledore by persuading himself that he has outsmarted a supposedly wise old man. His father had called Dumbledore the worst headmaster Hogwarts had ever had, and IMO Draco had to keep that image in his mind to be able to carry out the killing. When Dumbledore in the course of their conversation shows himself to be wise and gentle (and merciful) Draco finds he can't go through with the murder after all. That's my take on it.

I think you are right that Draco had no desire to leave his comfort zone (which was very comfortable for him). His is not generally shown to be a strong character IMO, and he leans on his father and his father's reputation to a considerable degree. To turn away from his family's ideals, even from his parents, would have needed a strength of character that Draco doesn't show. His early rejection of friendship by Harry IMO took away one of the few things that could have changed his attitudes - with Harry as a friend, he could have learned some different ways of thinking. As it was, he was surrounded at school by friends who largely thought as he did and so he had no inspiration to change, even had he wanted to.

Draco not having enough character is not really surprising. He reminds me of all the rich kids in the world who get what they want.. Not because they „deserve” it or because they have worked for it, but because mummy or daddy get it for them. How much character can we expect Draco to develop if all he has to do is whine and he gets daddy to buy the quidditch team brooms only to ensure dear Draco a place. Life as it was has always been good to Draco... why would he break free??? Why would join the other side so to speak? It only means he will have to work for his money. Economically speaking.. there are no benefits for Draco.

I don’t think having Harry as a friend would have changed anything. Draco is not Sirius or Andromeda who were not satisfied with their lives which gave the all the motivation they needed to leave.

But it isn’t Draco’s fault that his parents are rich. And being rich isn’t bad. Yes, he is rich, spoiled child, but not more (if not less) than James Potter, for instance. And he isn’t absolutely spoiled. His father says that he must improve his grades if he wants achieve success. He doesn’t say that money is everything.
And it isn’t Draco’s fault that his parents are followers of Voldemort. He loves his parents, they love him. Why must he turn away from his family? For whom? For Harry Potter? Who is Harry Potter for him? Or for «greater good»?
But he doesn’t do the things which, he thinks, are wrong (when he understood it). He didn’t kill Dumbledore and he didn’t recognize Harry to please his parents. He doesn’t follow them blindfold.

[QUOTE=Fotida;5762554]But it isn’t Draco’s fault that his parents are rich. And being rich isn’t bad. Yes, he is rich, spoiled child, but not more (if not less) than James Potter, for instance. And he isn’t absolutely spoiled. His father says that he must improve his grades if he wants achieve success. He doesn’t say that money is everything.

The problem with this is that James wasn't a bigot and James never blamed the teachers for any failures, well james didn't have many it seems. James was smarter, that wasn't James fault either. Also as far as the money goes he never showed any qualms in rubbing Ron's face into the fact that Ron's parents didn't have much.

And it isn’t Draco’s fault that his parents are followers of Voldemort. He loves his parents, they love him. Why must he turn away from his family? For whom? For Harry Potter? Who is Harry Potter for him? Or for «greater good»?
But he doesn’t do the things which, he thinks, are wrong (when he understood it). He didn’t kill Dumbledore and he didn’t recognize Harry to please his parents. He doesn’t follow them blindfold.

Well maybe he should have looked to the path Harry was on because Harry didn't believe in murdering and torturing his way through life. You don't have to live your life for the 'Greater Good' but it's usually a good idea if you don't follow your Father in joining a gang of terrorists.
Also I don't think it's the sign of being a decent human being if the best someone can say of you is that the two murder attempts you committed only succeeded in nearly killing two innocent bystanders, that you hesitated in killing your headmaster and you didn't turn someone over to torture and death. I'm sure Katie bell appreciated that Draco didn't plan on her being in hospital for months, I'm not too sure she actually appreciated being in the hospital at death's door. I'm also not sure that Rosemerta liked being made a zombie for months either and I know for sure that Ron did not appreciate being poisoned.

I felt from the start that Draco was going to be a Death Eater. He seemed to have that attitude from the very beginning. I think that he always figured he could get what he wanted and liked that. He wanted Harry to join him, but Harry didn't, and that made him mad. With the DEs it's the "You're with us or you're against us" type of thing. Draco definitely had his views instilled in him from his parents, and his parroted those views blindly because he really didn't understand what he was talking about or what some of those views were.

In HBP, he first starts bragging about joining Voldemort because he doesn't realize the danger he's in at first. He thinks it's an honor to join the Dark Lord because that's what his father has always taught him. Once he realizes what Voldy wants him to do, he gets scared because he doesn't know if he can carry it out. And if he doesn't, Voldy will kill his family.

But when Dumbledore tells Draco that he isn't a killer, Draco soon realizes that it's true. If he wanted to kill DD, he would've done it then and there. I don't think he regrets that because he knows in his heart he wouldn't want to kill anyone.

Then in DH, he continues to serve Voldemort because he has no choice. His family is in utter disgrace and must make up for their blunders. I was surprised that Draco saved Goyle, but I think he realized what was going on and that he couldn't think about himself anymore.

As for the life debt, I don't know if Harry and Ron will use it, but they might. I think things changed a lot after the war and that Draco did redeem himself. I don't think he married Pansy but probably married someone else. I think I read somewhere that her last name was Greengrass and that she was Daphne Greengrass's sister. I can't remember her first name though.

I think I read somewhere that her last name was Greengrass and that she was Daphne Greengrass's sister. I can't remember her first name though.

Draco married Astoria Greengrass.

But when Dumbledore tells Draco that he isn't a killer, Draco soon realizes that it's true. If he wanted to kill DD, he would've done it then and there. I don't think he regrets that because he knows in his heart he wouldn't want to kill anyone.

I think Draco realized only on the tower that he didn't want to be a killer. I think it was stepping over a body on the way up the stairs that unnerved him. Up until that point, he did not have to look at his own handywork and none of his victims had died. On the tower, Draco believed that his murderous scheme had born fruit already (Draco doesn't know yet that all the Order members and students are still alive, and it is the Death Eater Gibbon who is the one who has been killed by "friendly fire"). I don't think Draco liked the feeling at all, and I think that made him even more hesitant to strike at Dumbledore. I think if he had not stepped over the body, he may not have been shocked into thinking so deeply about the permanancy of his actions, and he may have found it easier to murder Dumbledore on the tower.

Well, maybe, but I think DD's words to him really solidify that Draco isn't a killer. He's all talk but no action. DD is willing to show him mercy and help him, but Draco doesn't take it. He could've killed DD at any time, but he didn't do it because he just doesn't have it in him. The only reason he had this mission was that if he didn't carry it out, Draco's family would be killed. Narcissa made the Unbreakable Vow because she knew it was a dangerous task for Draco to be doing. Snape did help Draco out, but in secret he was helping DD because DD wanted him to kill him, not Draco.

Well, maybe, but I think DD's words to him really solidify that Draco isn't a killer.

To clarify, I wasn't disagreeing with you about Dumbledore's words having impact on Draco and Draco wanting them to be true. But I think though that on the tower Draco thought he was a killer. His scheme had produced a dead body, and I think that unnerved him. I do not think he liked the feeling that he was responsible for someone being killed. He was forced to face that, something he had avoided until that point. Dumbledore had not been aware that someone had been killed until Draco told him. Dumbledore didn't rescind his offer to Draco after learning that, though.

Ah, I didn't think about that. Yeah, you have a point there. I think it did unnerve him, but he didn't seem very frightened about it when he was speaking to DD. He simply taunted him about the body, though inside he might've been frightened. I think Draco was simply scared because he knew what would happen if he didn't kill DD, but he realized that becoming a killer wasn't the answer.

Ah, I didn't think about that. Yeah, you have a point there. I think it did unnerve him, but he didn't seem very frightened about it when he was speaking to DD. He simply taunted him about the body, though inside he might've been frightened. I think Draco was simply scared because he knew what would happen if he didn't kill DD, but he realized that becoming a killer wasn't the answer.

"But am I to take it then that nobody has been murdered?"
"Someone's dead," said Malfoy and his voice seemed to go up an octave as he said it. "One of your people ... I don't know who, it was dark ... I stepped over the body ... I was supposed to be waiting up here when you got back, only your Phoenix lot got in the way ..."

The fact that Draco's voice went up an octave suggests to me that he was frightened by what he'd seen, rather than that he was taunting Dumbledore. As far as I know this was Draco's first experience of a dead body as despite all his threats and taunts in earlier books he hadn't actually seen the results of what he claimed he would want. He hadn't actually seen the results of his efforts with the necklace and mead, as Katie and Ron didn't rejoin the school, until they were well. It seems as though coming across an actual corpse unnerved him. Whether he would have tried to kill Dumbledore on the Tower without that experience is a difficult point to answer.

Oh, okay, I didn't catch that his voice went up an octave. Thanks for pointing that out. It definitely makes sense that he was frightened of what he did and what he was about to do.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?
yes she planted the seeds that he would be harrys arch nemisis and would do anything to defy him, but at the same time she gave an element of a want to be good in him and in his eyes good was socially acceptable i believe so it was possible that he could become a death eater or turn on the death eaters at the last minute and join harry.
2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.
thats very true, i also think that to add on to this bad combonations draco might have come from a house very similar to snape only no squib father i believe that lusius did abuse him physically and/or with magic and that his mother was probly very nagging and used alot of mental/verbal abuse.
3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?
i don't believe so he wanted to impress his dad and/or he was afraid they'd kill him his mother and his father or anyone he might have cared about if he didn't do as they wanted, remember the people they wanted in the group that didn't join ended up dead or framed.
4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.
yes, because thats all he was taught in life that social acceptance comes frmo your family and your blood and your money and power, they basically made him a power hungry ape only an aristocratic ape, when harry says that hes bewildered because one he never got that before, and two he doesn't know what to do now the befriend him so he resorts to becoming a nemisis of harrys
5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?
i believe hes misunderstood as snape is
6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?
possibly he could be relieved he didn't do it but regrettfull at the same time because now all the death eaters are watching him like a hawk and they might have killed his family, i think he feels great remorse for the mistakes he's made
7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.
they might become friends or he might save their lives in return to get even or he might (but its not likely) marry off one of his kids with one of harrys or rons wich would be a funny plot twist
8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?
he probly tried to settle down with a wife and live off of his family inheritance probly invested a bit and got a job with the ministry, yes i believe she is the wife but we don't see his wife really.

I just have one question (and I may be completely wrong about this) but Im sure I read somewhere that people with unicorn hair wand cores are supposedly 'pure of heart'. We know that Draco's first wand did have unicorn hair as it's core.
So my question is. . Does this mean deep (deep) down Draco wasnt a terrible person ? Or did he change from when the wand chose him when he was eleven ?

Personally I think he was a bully beacuse he was jealous (of Harry's status, Hermione's booksmarts) and because of Lucias expecting so much from him (of course Lucias was a bit of a bully himself. . I think Draco would have picked up alot of bad personality traits and morals from his parents) and because he never felt good enough he would bully those he sees as below him to make himself feel better.

Just my opinion but I'd like to see what anyone else has to say on it.

I don't recall anything in the books that relates personality to wand core. Maybe you got that information from Pottermore?

Jo said on her site that she matched wand wood to characters' birth dates but I don't think she ever mentioned wand cores. The only substances we hear of as wand cores are dragon heartstrings, unicorn tail hairs, phoenix feathers (Harry & Voldy are the only 2 we know of with this core) and veela hairs (again, Fleur is the only example we hear of of this). Since unicorn tail hairs can be found around the forest rubbed off on trees etc and unicorns don't seem that rare, I'd think this was the most common wand core. I assume you can only get dragon heartstrings from a dead dragon so you wouldn't be able to get so many.

So, to get back to Draco, I think his wand probably had the most common core, and I'd expect other DEs to have them as well. Unicorns seem to be associated with innocence which could be where your idea originally came from but in wands I think it was probably the magical qualities of them that made them useful cores.

As for Draco being originally 'pure of heart', he seems pretty snobbish and full of himself when we first see him in Madam Malkin's (and he'd only just have got his wand then) but not actively evil. There may be an innocence about him which receives a shock when he discovers in HBP what being a DE really involves, although I'm more inclined to think of it as naivete.

I like your points. :D

I don't think it's really a huge step from innocence to naivete. IMO, both express a lack of experience or knowledge of the world.

Regardless of his hurtful words/beliefs, I do tend to see Draco as a kid who thinks it's cool to like his dad, and when he later learns what the cost is and how much of a difference there is between idolizing a gang and being in one, is terrified and doesn't know what to do or be. I wouldn't class it as "pure of heart" but definitely a childish (or childlike, pick your preference :lol:) sort of naivete.

But in any case, kids never struck me as being all that pure. :lol: :elaugh:

I just found this forum and Im happy about it because Draco just happens to be my favourite character :)

So im just going to pretty much talk about his life and the person he has become.

So he was raised by his parents who taught him that pretty much they were better then everyone else since they were rich pure bloods. And muggle-borns and blood traiters were scum etc etc. So for the longest time, Draco idolized his dad and believed in anything that he believed in. He bullied Hermione because she was muggle-born, he bullied Ron because he was a poor blood-traiter and be bullied Harry out of jealousy. In the first 5 books, he's a 1 dimensional character who just bullies other people and he even wishes that he could join the Dark Lord. Then in the beginning of his 6th year, he was kind of excited that he was a Death Eater. Then he realized that his task that he was asked to do would be very hard. He experiences first hand what it is like to be a Death Eater and doesn't enjoy it as he becomes very scared. And he is not as strong as most Death Eaters. His methods of attempting to kill Dumbledore are really weak. He gives a poisoned object to a third party to deliver to Dumbledore so he would never have killed him personally. And in the end when he had a very easy chance to kill DUmbledore, he couldn't bring himself to do it. And in the last book he continues being a scared coward (sorry but that's what he is). He does help the trio by being reluctant to identify them at the Malfoy Manor. He never gives them a straight answer even though he obviously knew who they were as they slept under the same roof for six years. And even in the final battle at Hogwarts, he didn't really fight. He found the trio in the room of requirements and just yelled at Crabbe not to kill them and when he was pleading with that Death Eater and Harry stunned the Death Eater, Draco looked grateful (i think was the word that was used). So I do believe that he was secretly supporting the good side and wanted to fight for his school but he belonged to the dark side and if he did fight on the other side he would probably be killed. And since he is a coward he was not willing to risk that. So once he experienced the kind of kind of stuff that his dad supported (dark arts, death eaters etc) then he stopped idolizing him and started to have his own opinion on things. Even though he was to scared to state them out loud, some of his actions (even though they were minor) did show that he is different from his dad and he is actually a good person with a bad upringing. And I think that he would have raised Scorpius better. Maybe giving him more love (not saying that Lucius didn't love Draco. But he was very hard on him), more accepting of his son's different opinions, maybe more accepting of his son hanging out with kids that weren't pure-bloods and he deffinitely is not a fan of the dark arts anymore. He even made peace with the trio, so he probably wouldn't be to hard on Scorpius if he made friends with Rose or Al. Just my intake on this and im obviously a little bias on Draco being good and all because im a Draco lover :)

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8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?
he probly tried to settle down with a wife and live off of his family inheritance probly invested a bit and got a job with the ministry, yes i believe she is the wife but we don't see his wife realy.

Doesn't Draco marry some girl named Astoria Greengrass? The younger sister of a girl in Draco's year named Daphne Greengrass?

I just found this forum and Im happy about it because Draco just happens to be my favourite character :)

So im just going to pretty much talk about his life and the person he has become.

So he was raised by his parents who taught him that pretty much they were better then everyone else since they were rich pure bloods. And muggle-borns and blood traiters were scum etc etc. So for the longest time, Draco idolized his dad and believed in anything that he believed in. He bullied Hermione because she was muggle-born, he bullied Ron because he was a poor blood-traiter and be bullied Harry out of jealousy. In the first 5 books, he's a 1 dimensional character who just bullies other people and he even wishes that he could join the Dark Lord. Then in the beginning of his 6th year, he was kind of excited that he was a Death Eater. Then he realized that his task that he was asked to do would be very hard. He experiences first hand what it is like to be a Death Eater and doesn't enjoy it as he becomes very scared. And he is not as strong as most Death Eaters. His methods of attempting to kill Dumbledore are really weak. He gives a poisoned object to a third party to deliver to Dumbledore so he would never have killed him personally. And in the end when he had a very easy chance to kill DUmbledore, he couldn't bring himself to do it. And in the last book he continues being a scared coward (sorry but that's what he is). He does help the trio by being reluctant to identify them at the Malfoy Manor. He never gives them a straight answer even though he obviously knew who they were as they slept under the same roof for six years. And even in the final battle at Hogwarts, he didn't really fight. He found the trio in the room of requirements and just yelled at Crabbe not to kill them and when he was pleading with that Death Eater and Harry stunned the Death Eater, Draco looked grateful (i think was the word that was used). So I do believe that he was secretly supporting the good side and wanted to fight for his school but he belonged to the dark side and if he did fight on the other side he would probably be killed. And since he is a coward he was not willing to risk that. So once he experienced the kind of kind of stuff that his dad supported (dark arts, death eaters etc) then he stopped idolizing him and started to have his own opinion on things. Even though he was to scared to state them out loud, some of his actions (even though they were minor) did show that he is different from his dad and he is actually a good person with a bad upringing. And I think that he would have raised Scorpius better. Maybe giving him more love (not saying that Lucius didn't love Draco. But he was very hard on him), more accepting of his son's different opinions, maybe more accepting of his son hanging out with kids that weren't pure-bloods and he deffinitely is not a fan of the dark arts anymore. He even made peace with the trio, so he probably wouldn't be to hard on Scorpius if he made friends with Rose or Al. Just my intake on this and im obviously a little bias on Draco being good and all because im a Draco lover :)



Doesn't Draco marry some girl named Astoria Greengrass? The younger sister of a girl in Draco's year named Daphne Greengrass?

Yes Draco married Astoria Greengrass according to Jo's answers after Deathly Hallow was published.

I'm afraid I don't agree with your admiration of Draco. I cannot find it in myself to admire a character who tried on three different occasions to murder someone. Who on two of those occasions injured two bystanders so severely they almost died. The vision of Katie Bell hanging screaming in midair is something that I will never forget and Ron, choking on the poisoned mead is something else I have a hard time dealing with. I know Draco felt sorry for himself when these very careless and extremely dangerous attempts to murder Dumbledore only resulted in nearly killing Katie and Ron, but I felt sorry for Katie and Ron, not Draco. Yes, at Malfoy Manor he did say he wasn't sure it was Harry. He didn't say it wasn't Harry though, he was only 'not sure'. At that time Draco had lived through the joy of having Voldemort as a house guest. I don't think he found the experience fun.

So I am not one of Draco's admirers. I am sure he had some kind of redeeming virtue, I'm not sure just what that was though. I can't say that it was his love of his family, that pops up only when he is confronting Dumbledore and he is trying to convince Dumbledore and himself that he has no choice but to murder a helpless old man. I was very much less than convinced. Draco was all for committing himself to the Death Eater cause when he first joined up with them, pleased as punch actually. He IMO, only had second thoughts when it finally dawned on him that Voldemort was as likely to kill him as anyone else. Voldemort never cared very much who he killed and Draco found that out the hard way.

And even in the final battle at Hogwarts, he didn't really fight.
He couldn't have fought in the battle of Hogwarts as he had lost Narcissa's wand in the Room of Requirement. He could have wrested a wand from someone else I suppose as Dean managed to get hold of one, but Dean was running around with other DA members and could have stepped in when they defeated someone but Draco was alone as Goyle didn't appear to have recovered or at least wasn't with him. Draco's ambition in the battle seemed to be to stay alive. The DEs hadn't recognised him and the students would have known him as Lucius Malfoy's son and expected him to be on the DE side so he was in trouble whoever he ran into.

He couldn't have fought in the battle of Hogwarts as he had lost Narcissa's wand in the Room of Requirement. He could have wrested a wand from someone else I suppose as Dean managed to get hold of one, but Dean was running around with other DA members and could have stepped in when they defeated someone but Draco was alone as Goyle didn't appear to have recovered or at least wasn't with him. Draco's ambition in the battle seemed to be to stay alive. The DEs hadn't recognised him and the students would have known him as Lucius Malfoy's son and expected him to be on the DE side so he was in trouble whoever he ran into.

That sort of begs the question what was he doing there in the first place? We know that he planned to capture Harry and turn him over to Voldemort, his bad luck that Harry, Ron and Hermione fought back hard and he lost the wand. His ambition in the battle was to capture Harry, and to please Voldemort. He did not suceed.

Yes Draco married Astoria Greengrass according to Jo's answers after Deathly Hallow was published.

I'm afraid I don't agree with your admiration of Draco. I cannot find it in myself to admire a character who tried on three different occasions to murder someone. Who on two of those occasions injured two bystanders so severely they almost died. The vision of Katie Bell hanging screaming in midair is something that I will never forget and Ron, choking on the poisoned mead is something else I have a hard time dealing with. I know Draco felt sorry for himself when these very careless and extremely dangerous attempts to murder Dumbledore only resulted in nearly killing Katie and Ron, but I felt sorry for Katie and Ron, not Draco. Yes, at Malfoy Manor he did say he wasn't sure it was Harry. He didn't say it wasn't Harry though, he was only 'not sure'. At that time Draco had lived through the joy of having Voldemort as a house guest. I don't think he found the experience fun.

So I am not one of Draco's admirers. I am sure he had some kind of redeeming virtue, I'm not sure just what that was though. I can't say that it was his love of his family, that pops up only when he is confronting Dumbledore and he is trying to convince Dumbledore and himself that he has no choice but to murder a helpless old man. I was very much less than convinced. Draco was all for committing himself to the Death Eater cause when he first joined up with them, pleased as punch actually. He IMO, only had second thoughts when it finally dawned on him that Voldemort was as likely to kill him as anyone else. Voldemort never cared very much who he killed and Draco found that out the hard way.

Yeah I do agree with you that what Draco did was VERY wrong and i deffinitely do not admire his actions. But I still can't help but feel bad for him because he was pretty much doing them against his will. If he had a choice with no consequences attached to it then he obviously wouldn't do it. But that still doesn't make it right. He was put in a very tough situation though. And I do think that most of the Slytherin students in the novels are cowards. So if he said straight up "No that's deffinitely not Harry, Ron and Hermione" while at the Malfoy manor then he could get in serious trouble. And you do NOT want to get introuble with Voldemort :eeep:
But he also didn't really want to give them away. Which I thought showed some goodness.

I do believe that the love for his family had a lot to do with his actions and choices. When his father was arrested at the end of OoTP, he was very mad at Harry. Im not sure if he was truly upset that his dad was in Azkaban or this was just another excuse to be mean to harry. And he attempted to kill Dumbledore multiple times just to save his family. And when Dumbledore offered his family protection, Draco was considering it then the Death Eaters showed up. And I think he was first pleased at becoming a Death Eater because of what he's heard from his dad. His dad probably made it sound great and all. But when he actually experienced what being a death eater meant, then I bet he wished he never became one. I believe that he had second thoughts ever since his sixth year. But I think he only showed that he had second thoughts during the battle when, like you said, he realized that he was in just as much danger from Voldemort as everyone else. But, because he is a coward, he stuck with Voldemort because he thought that was the safest choice. But yeah, I can totally see why people don't like him. I guess he's kind of a love / hate character. You either love him or you don't.


He couldn't have fought in the battle of Hogwarts as he had lost Narcissa's wand in the Room of Requirement. He could have wrested a wand from someone else I suppose as Dean managed to get hold of one, but Dean was running around with other DA members and could have stepped in when they defeated someone but Draco was alone as Goyle didn't appear to have recovered or at least wasn't with him. Draco's ambition in the battle seemed to be to stay alive. The DEs hadn't recognised him and the students would have known him as Lucius Malfoy's son and expected him to be on the DE side so he was in trouble whoever he ran into.

Oh right! Forgot about that :p

He was ambitious to capture Harry in the Room of Requirements and bring him to Voldemort, because again Draco is a coward and just wanted to be kept safe during the battle. And he thought maybe if he brought Harry to Voldemort, then Voldy would make sure of that. But in the RoR when Crabbe (i think it was) was shooting the killing curse at I think it was Hermione, Draco said "don't kill him! DONT KILL HIM". I don't really know why he said that when crabbe was aiming at Hermione, but I don't think think he wanted them dead (thats why he didn't identify them at the manor). But after the RoR, didn't Draco lose most of his ambition? I don't think we heard much from him for the rest of the war except when he was pleading with that death eater. But its been a while since I read the book, so maybe he did do more in the war.





And just a side note, I just remembered that he cried at the beginning of the 7th book when Voldemort killed that teacher right in front of him. Just kinda shows that seeing people die (whoever it is) really upsets him (which is probably one reason why he is not a suitable DE). Plus didn't he cry a bit when Dumbledore died? I forget, I saw the movie more recently then I read the book so I know in the movie he did. PLUS he cried in his 6th year in the bathroom because he was scared and stressed and everything. I don't know, I just see him as a very misunderstood character.

=PianoPlaya;5862987]Yeah I do agree with you that what Draco did was VERY wrong and i deffinitely do not admire his actions. But I still can't help but feel bad for him because he was pretty much doing them against his will. If he had a choice with no consequences attached to it then he obviously wouldn't do it. But that still doesn't make it right. He was put in a very tough situation though. And I do think that most of the Slytherin students in the novels are cowards. So if he said straight up "No that's deffinitely not Harry, Ron and Hermione" while at the Malfoy manor then he could get in serious trouble. And you do NOT want to get introuble with Voldemort :eeep:
But he also didn't really want to give them away. Which I thought showed some goodness.

My big problem with Draco is that I don't see any sign that he is working against his will. The 'working against his will' thing only seems to kick in when he is failing to kill Dumbledore. It certainly wasn't noticeable to his mother when she went to Snape for help. As Bella is only to quick to point out Draco is positively eager to try his hand at murder. Yes, you don't want to get into trouble with Voldemort, but that didn't stop Harry and Co. Draco does nothing to help the prisoners at Malfoy Manor. Luna, Dean, Ollivander and Griphook are all in bad condition and how did Draco help, he kept his wand out and threatened them. Hermione is screaming in agony and Draco is making sure he doesn't get into trouble

I do believe that the love for his family had a lot to do with his actions and choices. When his father was arrested at the end of OoTP, he was very mad at Harry. I'm not sure if he was truly upset that his dad was in Azkaban or this was just another excuse to be mean to harry. And he attempted to kill Dumbledore multiple times just to save his family.

I think love for his family was something that Draco trotted out because He thought it would make Dumbledore feel sorry him. Yes, I suppose Draco was sad to see Lucius carted off to Azkaban, no more cushy spots on the Quidditch team without Daddy to pay his way. He attempted to kill Dumbledore to impress Voldemort IMO, that was his reason. If he impressed Voldemort at what a tough guy he was then he would be the No1 Death Eater. But it was a whole lot tougher than he thought it would be. Especially for Draco who didn't want to look his victim in the eye while killing him. Much better to do it from a distance. The only problem with that was that he kept missing his target and nearly killing other people. If he had felt that bad about what he was doing, he would have stopped with the first victim, Rosemerta.Or the second victim Katie. Or the third victim Ron. But no, he didn't stop. He kept on going till he was responsible for letting that monster Fenrir Greyback into a school full of young schoolchildren. Draco did all that and he never had the backbone to say sorry to anybody.



And when Dumbledore offered his family protection, Draco was considering it then the Death Eaters showed up.

Yes, he was considering it when he saw something to his advantage.


And I think he was first pleased at becoming a Death Eater because of what he's heard from his dad. His dad probably made it sound great and all. But when he actually experienced what being a death eater meant, then I bet he wished he never became one. I believe that he had second thoughts ever since his sixth year.

Draco was there when Harry came back with Cedric's body. What was he said to Harry on the train;

"So," said Malfoy slowly, advancing slightly into the compartment and looking slowly around at them, a smirk quivering on his lips. "You caught some pathetic reporter, and Potter's Dumbledore's favourite boy again. Big deal."
His smirk widened. Crabbe and Goyle leered.
"Trying not to think about it, are we?" said Malfoy softly, looking around at all three of them. "Trying to pretend it hasn't happened?"
"Get out," said Harry.
He had not been this close to Malfoy since he had watched him muttering to Crabbe and Goyle during Dumbledore's speech about Cedric. He could feel a kind of ringing in his ears. His hand gripped his wand under his robes.
"You've picked the losing side, Potter! I warned you! I told you you ought to choose your company more carefully, remember? When we met on the train, first day at Hogwarts? I told you not to hang around with riffraff like this!" He jerked his head at Ron and Hermione. "Too late now. Potter! They'll be the first to go, now the Dark Lord's back! Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first! Well - second - Diggory was the f-" JK Rowling GOF

I think he only showed that he had second thoughts during the battle when, like you said, he realized that he was in just as much danger from Voldemort as everyone else. But, because he is a coward, he stuck with Voldemort because he thought that was the safest choice. But yeah, I can totally see why people don't like him. I guess he's kind of a love / hate character. You either love him or you don't.

Oh I think you can safely include me in with the people who don't love Draco. I don't think Draco had a single redeeming quality.


He was ambitious to capture Harry in the Room of Requirements and bring him to Voldemort, because again Draco is a coward and just wanted to be kept safe during the battle. And he thought maybe if he brought Harry to Voldemort, then Voldy would make sure of that. But in the RoR when Crabbe (i think it was) was shooting the killing curse at I think it was Hermione, Draco said "don't kill him! DONT KILL HIM". I don't really know why he said that when Crabbe was aiming at Hermione, but I don't think think he wanted them dead (thats why he didn't identify them at the manor). But after the RoR, didn't Draco lose most of his ambition? I don't think we heard much from him for the rest of the war except when he was pleading with that death eater. But its been a while since I read the book, so maybe he did do more in the war.

He said 'Don't kill him' because Voldemort gave strict orders that he, Voldemort was the one to kill Harry. Draco was in enough trouble with Voldemort, he didn't want to be around when it would be revealed that Harry had been killed because he tried to take Harry to Voldemort. Not good for the health, disobeying Voldemort. Of course it wasn't good for the health to obey him either.

And just a side note, I just remembered that he cried at the beginning of the 7th book when Voldemort killed that teacher right in front of him. Just kinda shows that seeing people die (whoever it is) really upsets him (which is probably one reason why he is not a suitable DE). Plus didn't he cry a bit when Dumbledore died? I forget, I saw the movie more recently then I read the book so I know in the movie he did. PLUS he cried in his 6th year in the bathroom because he was scared and stressed and everything. I don't know, I just see him as a very misunderstood character.

Draco never cried in that scene, he did look terrified though. A case of getting what you wished for coming back to haunt him I guess. He cried in the bathroom because he had failed to kill an old man, my sympathy is limited. I can't remember if he cried a lot in the film or not.

(I have to confess that I didn't pay attention. I cordially hated that film, well I have hated all the films to a greater or lesser degree, but that one, :grumble:. Glorified fanfiction, that is my opinion of the films. Which of course means absolutely nothing.)

I don't think Draco is misunderstood at all. If he is seen as a bigoted, criminal, I think that is entirely correct. He displays bigotry throughout the books and attempted murder is a crime in every society in the world.

Jo said on her site that she matched wand wood to characters' birth dates but I don't think she ever mentioned wand cores. The only substances we hear of as wand cores are dragon heartstrings, unicorn tail hairs, phoenix feathers (Harry & Voldy are the only 2 we know of with this core) and veela hairs (again, Fleur is the only example we hear of of this). Since unicorn tail hairs can be found around the forest rubbed off on trees etc and unicorns don't seem that rare, I'd think this was the most common wand core. I assume you can only get dragon heartstrings from a dead dragon so you wouldn't be able to get so many.

So, to get back to Draco, I think his wand probably had the most common core, and I'd expect other DEs to have them as well. Unicorns seem to be associated with innocence which could be where your idea originally came from but in wands I think it was probably the magical qualities of them that made them useful cores.

As for Draco being originally 'pure of heart', he seems pretty snobbish and full of himself when we first see him in Madam Malkin's (and he'd only just have got his wand then) but not actively evil. There may be an innocence about him which receives a shock when he discovers in HBP what being a DE really involves, although I'm more inclined to think of it as naivete.

I didnt mean Draco himself is 'pure of heart' I just wanted to point out that maybe underneath being an arrogant so and so he maybe wasnt so terrible. Sure I admit he has alot bad points, he's made bad decisions and I wont defend him on those but like. . I dont believe its entirely his fault how he turned out and I dont believe he's an essentially bad person. I do think he's made alot of mistakes (and maybe after the Wizarding War he would have looked back and maybe wanted to do things differently). I think he gets alot of bad rep (and in some cases he deserves it for eg. the incidents with Katie and Ron) but I feel like people shouldnt be so harsh (if thats the right word). Havn't you ever made a big mistake or a wrong judgement of something in the past ? Were you a perfect angel at eleven or even as a teenager ? I just know I have made mistakes etc and I guess I can identifiy with Draco's character in that way. And I think people should just be more open minded about Draco's character.

As for the wand cores Im not sure I 100% agree about Unicorn hair being the most common. I can see why you'd say it would be but remember the high price Unicorn hair has ? Remember Slughorns reaction to see Hagrid with a big clump of it in his house ? This leads me to think it could be just as rare as the other two cores.

Another question. . How do think Draco will have changed after the War ? I'm totally certain he will have changed and it may not be dramatically but still there will be little changes in him. I believe he will actually learn from his and his fathers mistakes. What do you guys think ?

I didnt mean Draco himself is 'pure of heart' I just wanted to point out that maybe underneath being an arrogant so and so he maybe wasnt so terrible. Sure I admit he has alot bad points, he's made bad decisions and I wont defend him on those but like. . I dont believe its entirely his fault how he turned out and I dont believe he's an essentially bad person. I do think he's made alot of mistakes (and maybe after the Wizarding War he would have looked back and maybe wanted to do things differently). I think he gets alot of bad rep (and in some cases he deserves it for eg. the incidents with Katie and Ron) but I feel like people shouldnt be so harsh (if thats the right word). Havn't you ever made a big mistake or a wrong judgement of something in the past ? Were you a perfect angel at eleven or even as a teenager ? I just know I have made mistakes etc and I guess I can identifiy with Draco's character in that way. And I think people should just be more open minded about Draco's character.

Draco != Tom Felton. :)

No, seriously, I don't think anyone would expect someone of school age to be a perfect angel. However, Draco Malfoy is a loooooooong way from being a perfect angel. Those aren't mere "incidents" with Katie and Ron; those are attempted murders, not merely a "big mistake" or a "wrong judgment." And they were not pulled punches, either, no matter what Dumbledore said; they were a hairsbreadth from being actual murders. (By the usual western standards, if you attempt to kill person A, but you miss and instead kill persons B and C, you're still guilty of murder.) So...misunderstood teen, or just lucky SOB?

I won't go as far as some and say that he has no redeeming qualities, but that's an awful lot to overlook. It's hard to say whether his crying in HBP is over a crisis of conscience or because he's gotten himself in too deep (I think it's the latter, but it could be the former, at least partly), but it certainly doesn't seem like remorse to me.

Honestly, I think it's no more open-minded to forgive Draco Malfoy for those moral oversights than it is to condemn him for them; I think what you mean is you think people should be more forgiving of Draco.

Another question. . How do think Draco will have changed after the War ? I'm totally certain he will have changed and it may not be dramatically but still there will be little changes in him. I believe he will actually learn from his and his fathers mistakes. What do you guys think ?

I do think he'll have changed. It's unlikely that he'll have completely outgrown his sense of privilege, but he'll recognize (due to overwhelming peer pressure, I'd guess) that open expression of it simply isn't tolerated. It's something.

I would agree that it isn't entirely his fault the way he turned out. However, that merely explains his behavior; it doesn't excuse it. He was perfectly aware what he was preparing to do was wrong.

Another question. . How do think Draco will have changed after the War ? I'm totally certain he will have changed and it may not be dramatically but still there will be little changes in him. I believe he will actually learn from his and his fathers mistakes. What do you guys think ?

Good question. :) I think that after the war, the Malfoys will lose a lot of respect and status, and this was the stuff Draco really leaned on when he had problems to overcome. I think he will have a lot of trouble adjusting to a life where he can't use influence and money to sweep away problems, and will have to deal with them himself. I believe that it will always be a stressful process for him because he spent so much of his life being pampered. It's hard to overcome the habits of early life.

I don't know how much these changes would affect his beliefs on blood purity (it is, IMO, deeply rooted in him from infancy), but I agree that he'd change somewhat: perhaps he'd become a little less arrogant and a little less antagonistic. The nod he gives to Harry in the epilogue suggests to me that their relationship became, if not very friendly, civil.

=EvieBlackthorn;5863858]I didnt mean Draco himself is 'pure of heart' I just wanted to point out that maybe underneath being an arrogant so and so he maybe wasnt so terrible. Sure I admit he has alot bad points, he's made bad decisions and I wont defend him on those but like. . I dont believe its entirely his fault how he turned out and I dont believe he's an essentially bad person. I do think he's made alot of mistakes (and maybe after the Wizarding War he would have looked back and maybe wanted to do things differently). I think he gets alot of bad rep (and in some cases he deserves it for eg. the incidents with Katie and Ron) but I feel like people shouldnt be so harsh (if thats the right word). Havn't you ever made a big mistake or a wrong judgement of something in the past ? Were you a perfect angel at eleven or even as a teenager ? I just know I have made mistakes etc and I guess I can identifiy with Draco's character in that way. And I think people should just be more open minded about Draco's character.

Doing his best to kill someone is not 'understandable', it is serious criminal behaviour. He wasn't supporting a team at a sports event, he was supporting terrorists in thier attempt to overthrow the goverment. I see it as somewhat more than teenage angst.

As for the wand cores Im not sure I 100% agree about Unicorn hair being the most common. I can see why you'd say it would be but remember the high price Unicorn hair has ? Remember Slughorns reaction to see Hagrid with a big clump of it in his house ? This leads me to think it could be just as rare as the other two cores.

Perhap's it is, what does that have to do with Draco being a bigot?

Another question. . How do think Draco will have changed after the War ? I'm totally certain he will have changed and it may not be dramatically but still there will be little changes in him. I believe he will actually learn from his and his fathers mistakes. What do you guys think ?

I think he will have learnt to keep his bigotry to himself and he close associates. I hesitate to say friends, I don't think Draco ever had friends. He is a sad, sad person in thar regard, IMO.

=BrianTung;5864013]Draco != Tom Felton. :)

No, seriously, I don't think anyone would expect someone of school age to be a perfect angel. However, Draco Malfoy is a loooooooong way from being a perfect angel. Those aren't mere "incidents" with Katie and Ron; those are attempted murders, not merely a "big mistake" or a "wrong judgment." And they were not pulled punches, either, no matter what Dumbledore said; they were a hairsbreadth from being actual murders. (By the usual western standards, if you attempt to kill person A, but you miss and instead kill persons B and C, you're still guilty of murder.) So...misunderstood teen, or just lucky SOB?

:hmm: I'll go with lucky.

I won't go as far as some and say that he has no redeeming qualities, but that's an awful lot to overlook. It's hard to say whether his crying in HBP is over a crisis of conscience or because he's gotten himself in too deep (I think it's the latter, but it could be the former, at least partly), but it certainly doesn't seem like remorse to me.

Honestly, I think it's no more open-minded to forgive Draco Malfoy for those moral oversights than it is to condemn him for them; I think what you mean is you think people should be more forgiving of Draco.

I have looked hard at Draco to find something redeemable, no luck in my case. I simply can't forgive him, I think he probably did a good job forgiving himself.

I do think he'll have changed. It's unlikely that he'll have completely outgrown his sense of privilege, but he'll recognize (due to overwhelming peer pressure, I'd guess) that open expression of it simply isn't tolerated. It's something.

I would agree that it isn't entirely his fault the way he turned out. However, that merely explains his behavior; it doesn't excuse it. He was perfectly aware what he was preparing to do was wrong.

I would have to agree with this, I think you hit the nail squarely on it's head.

Good question. :) I think that after the war, the Malfoys will lose a lot of respect and status, and this was the stuff Draco really leaned on when he had problems to overcome. I think he will have a lot of trouble adjusting to a life where he can't use influence and money to sweep away problems, and will have to deal with them himself. I believe that it will always be a stressful process for him because he spent so much of his life being pampered. It's hard to overcome the habits of early life.

I don't know how much these changes would affect his beliefs on blood purity (it is, IMO, deeply rooted in him from infancy), but I agree that he'd change somewhat: perhaps he'd become a little less arrogant and a little less antagonistic. The nod he gives to Harry in the epilogue suggests to me that their relationship became, if not very friendly, civil.

Giving a 'curt' nod from a distance is civil? Well at least he wasn't shouting 'Mudblood' down the station.

Why wouldn't giving a curt nod be considered civil? If someone who knows nothing about their history or who Draco and Harry are saw the scene at King's Cross, would she/he think they hate each other? I don't think so. I think most people would assume the two know each other and while they aren't friends (because friends wold actually walk over and talk) they obviously respect each other/don't have a serious problem with one another. Draco and Harry could've ignored each other, but they didn't.

Why wouldn't giving a curt nod be considered civil? If someone who knows nothing about their history or who Draco and Harry are saw the scene at King's Cross, would she/he think they hate each other? I don't think so. I think most people would assume the two know each other and while they aren't friends (because friends wold actually walk over and talk) they obviously respect each other/don't have a serious problem with one another. Draco and Harry could've ignored each other, but they didn't.

Definion of 'curt' from the Free Online dictionary;
curt (kûrt)
adj. curt·er, curt·est
1. Rudely brief or abrupt, as in speech or manner

From the Oxford Dictionary;
Curt; adjective: rudely brief:his reply was curt

From the Miriam Webster;
Definition of CURT
1 a: sparing of words : terse <wrote curt precise sentences> b: marked by rude or peremptory shortness : brusque <a curt refusal>

I have to ask, why do you think being 'curt' is polite?

Why wouldn't giving a curt nod be considered civil? If someone who knows nothing about their history or who Draco and Harry are saw the scene at King's Cross, would she/he think they hate each other? I don't think so. I think most people would assume the two know each other and while they aren't friends (because friends wold actually walk over and talk) they obviously respect each other/don't have a serious problem with one another. Draco and Harry could've ignored each other, but they didn't.

While I agree with your interpretation BEB - I can see space for interpretation here any gesture is open to being read many different ways and a readers feelings about a character will influence how they see them. I feel that the 'curt nod' is a sign of a cooling in the emnity between Harry & Draco - I certainly can't imagine Harry & Draco from the first few books acting so politly to each other! :)

Definion of 'curt' from the Free Online dictionary;
curt (kûrt)
adj. curt·er, curt·est
1. Rudely brief or abrupt, as in speech or manner

From the Oxford Dictionary;
Curt; adjective: rudely brief:his reply was curt

From the Miriam Webster;
Definition of CURT
1 a: sparing of words : terse <wrote curt precise sentences> b: marked by rude or peremptory shortness : brusque <a curt refusal>

I have to ask, why do you think being 'curt' is polite?

Because I think there's a difference between being friendly (stopping for a chat), somewhat friendly (nod) and merely civil (curt nod). I think politicians with different political views who know each other would give each other a curt nod if they met at a non-political event (outside the parliament, e.g. at the train station with kids). Also, a curt nod could be taken as a sign of Draco's embarrassment in front of Harry.

Because I think there's a difference between being friendly (stopping for a chat), somewhat friendly (nod) and merely civil (curt nod). I think politicians with different political views who know each other would give each other a curt nod if they met at a non-political event (outside the parliament, e.g. at the train station with kids). Also, a curt nod could be taken as a sign of Draco's embarrassment in front of Harry.

The definition of 'curt' in every dictionary I consulted is 'rude'. I know that if someone speaks or nods to me in a 'curt' manner I am offended. There is such a thing as a 'polite' nod, which would be a pleasant acknowledgement that was non-verbal. That is not what is in Canon. In Canon it is specifically 'curt'. That is neither pleasant or nice IMO.
If I see politicians being curt with each other I start looking for who has plunged the knife into who's back.

Everyone interprets "curt" in a different way. I think those poised to look mildly towards Draco because of the empathy he showed during the last couple of chapters will see the curt nod in a favorable light. Those that can't forgive Draco can't. Let's not bicker about the meaning of the word curt. It's a matter of opinion and interpretation. Thanks guys :)

Let's not bicker about the meaning of the word curt.

Can we move on now?

Thank you, Hes. I have sympathy for Draco and his situation. I blame Narcissa more than I blame Draco for how things (including all the attempted murders) turned out for her son. I'll explain my views:

I think the Malfoys are a "traditional" family in the sense that the man has the upper hand in everything on first sight. When Lucius went to jail everything fell apart. Draco heavily rellied on Lucius and now he was left alone.

Draco is a single child and he's only 16. His mother is on a verge of break-down and his aunt is a dominant woman, but also a mad ex-prisoner fully supportive of the man who is clearly angry with his father (who isn't around).

Draco gets the task to kill Dumbledore, the greatest wizard alive, or else his family will be killed. Draco knows that Lucius never liked Dumbledore (Draco never liked Dumbledore either). Why would he think Dumbledore would be full of understanding for his situation and help him out?

Narcissa has two sisters. She was too weak to turn to Andromeda, mother of an auror, for help and instead she stayed with Bellatrix (allowing her to teach Draco the dark arts and prepare him for his task of klilling Dumbledore). But she was still scared Draco would fail so she turned to Snape (believing he's on Voldemort's side).

What was Draco supposed to do? The situation was tense. His dad was in jail. He was sure Dumbledore hated his family. He was aware of Voldemort's anger. Bellatrix was fully supportive of Voldemort (and angry at Lucius) and his own mother allowed Bellatrix to take control. Maybe things would've been different if Narcissa put her pride aside for a moment and asked for Andromeda's help. Dumbledore was apparently aware of Draco's actions all along and he did nothing to stop them. Why didn't he offer him help sooner? Right, because he had to die.

Draco was scared and rightfully so. He was scared of Voldemort, Dumbledore and Bellatrix. Lucius wasn't around and he had no one to relly on. His own mother was clueless and as scared as he was. He knew he was wrong but in his mind he didn't have an option: kill or be killed. And he decided to kill because he didn't want to be killed and he didn't want his family to be killed. He was selfish and cowardly, but he wasn't evil. If his life or his mother's life weren't at stake, do you think he'd do all the things he did? I doubt it. He'd probably talk big like he usually did (how the Death Eaters are gonna come kill all mudbloods), but that's about it. Draco isn't evil in my eyes because I don't think he'd kill anyone or try to kill anyone if the circumstances were different (i.e. if Lucius was still in Voldemort's favour and around).

Thank you, Hes. I have sympathy for Draco and his situation. I blame Narcissa more than I blame Draco for how things (including all the attempted murders) turned out for her son. I'll explain my views:

I think the Malfoys are a "traditional" family in the sense that the man has the upper hand in everything on first sight. When Lucius went to jail everything fell apart. Draco heavily rellied on Lucius and now he was left alone.

Draco is a single child and he's only 16. His mother is on a verge of break-down and his aunt is a dominant woman, but also a mad ex-prisoner fully supportive of the man who is clearly angry with his father (who isn't around).

Draco gets the task to kill Dumbledore, the greatest wizard alive, or else his family will be killed. Draco knows that Lucius never liked Dumbledore (Draco never liked Dumbledore either). Why would he think Dumbledore would be full of understanding for his situation and help him out?

Narcissa has two sisters. She was too weak to turn to Andromeda, mother of an auror, for help and instead she stayed with Bellatrix (allowing her to teach Draco the dark arts and prepare him for his task of klilling Dumbledore). But she was still scared Draco would fail so she turned to Snape (believing he's on Voldemort's side).

What was Draco supposed to do? The situation was tense. His dad was in jail. He was sure Dumbledore hated his family. He was aware of Voldemort's anger. Bellatrix was fully supportive of Voldemort (and angry at Lucius) and his own mother allowed Bellatrix to take control. Maybe things would've been different if Narcissa put her pride aside for a moment and asked for Andromeda's help. Dumbledore was apparently aware of Draco's actions all along and he did nothing to stop them. Why didn't he offer him help sooner? Right, because he had to die.

Draco was scared and rightfully so. He was scared of Voldemort, Dumbledore and Bellatrix. Lucius wasn't around and he had no one to relly on. His own mother was clueless and as scared as he was. He knew he was wrong but in his mind he didn't have an option: kill or be killed. And he decided to kill because he didn't want to be killed and he didn't want his family to be killed. He was selfish and cowardly, but he wasn't evil. If his life or his mother's life weren't at stake, do you think he'd do all the things he did? I doubt it. He'd probably talk big like he usually did (how the Death Eaters are gonna come kill all mudbloods), but that's about it. Draco isn't evil in my eyes because I don't think he'd kill anyone or try to kill anyone if the circumstances were different (i.e. if Lucius was still in Voldemort's favour and around). I would have more sympathy for Draco if he had not so willingly embraced the bigotry of his parents and Aunt Bella. I would have more sympathy for him if he had not been so eager to enlist with the Death Eaters dispite seeing Cedric's body lying on the ground and them making a crack about how Cedris would only be the first. I would have some sympathy for his feelings about his family if the first time we heard about this great love of family had come up at another time apart from when he was telling Dumbledore that he had no choice but to kill him. In the bathroom scene all he can whine about is his own life. Also I don't believe in blaming the parents after a child has reached the age to think for himself. I think a 17 year old young man is well able to make up his own mind about what is a decent way to live his life. Harry knew, Sirius knew and Ron knew what was a morall way to live.
For someone who would not kill anyone he made 3 very good stabs at it. Katie would have died but there was help to hand, Ron would definitely have died if Harry hadn't remembered abut the bezoar, and I think Draco would have killed Dumbledore but for the fact that Dumbledore was able to talk him down. What Draco didn't like was his family having their noses rubbed in their collective failures. That he hated.
He did nothing to help the prisoners at Malfoy Manor, he waffled when he was called on to identify Harry, just like he waffled with Dumbledore. Both parties were standing in front of him looking him in the eye and Draco had trouble with that. This does not change the fact that Draco was not a child when he became a Death Eater, like Harry he had attained his maturity. He wanted to become a Death Eater, and like may before him, he found out that sometimes it's not that great to get what you wanted.
[staff edit: drop the dictionary topic, please]

Technically Draco was still under age when he became a DE - he was 16 in HBP. Harry at the same age seemed a lot maturer, partly because he had faced some bad things in his life and overcome them. I still find 16 year old Draco naive and inexperienced in life - his father had always been there to sort his problems out. When Lucius is taken out of the equation, then Draco starts to have to face life on his own and he finds it much more difficult than he had expected, or that's how I see it.

Draco was scared and rightfully so. He was scared of Voldemort, Dumbledore and Bellatrix. Lucius wasn't around and he had no one to relly on. His own mother was clueless and as scared as he was. He knew he was wrong but in his mind he didn't have an option: kill or be killed. And he decided to kill because he didn't want to be killed and he didn't want his family to be killed. He was selfish and cowardly, but he wasn't evil. If his life or his mother's life weren't at stake, do you think he'd do all the things he did? I doubt it. He'd probably talk big like he usually did (how the Death Eaters are gonna come kill all mudbloods), but that's about it. Draco isn't evil in my eyes because I don't think he'd kill anyone or try to kill anyone if the circumstances were different (i.e. if Lucius was still in Voldemort's favour and around).

This is how I feel about Draco, too. I don't like him and felt he was a pretty vile person throughout the series, but I don't feel he's evil or irredeemable in the end. I see him as a bratty, spoiled child who talked big when there were no dangerous stakes involved for himself or his family, but once that changed he seemed to realize how over his head he really was, and that being in service to the Dark Lord was not the grand lark he seemed to think it would be before. I see him as someone who was poisoned early on by the views of his family, and if he had been raised in a family like the Weasleys instead, things would probably have been very different for him.

I can't fault him too much for not choosing to break away from his family and their beliefs. Yes, he had the choice to think for himself and do so, but I don't see that as an entirely realistic scenario for a lot of people in his shoes. Joining the side of Harry Potter or even just speaking up in defense of Muggle-borns was likely to get him disowned by the family, or at the very least, his father. Even putting aside Draco's obvious enjoyment of the family money and status, which he certainly would not have wanted to lose, I doubt he wanted to lose the love or respect of his parents, either. I doubt he wanted to be in a situation in which his parents would no longer speak to him or let him come home on his vacations. It takes an incredibly strong person with an awful lot of conviction to first even recognize that the parents he has been raised to love and respect are severely warped in their views; and secondly, to then stand up against his own family and accept the consequences. Even if Draco had felt early on that his parents' views were wrong (which I don't think he did), I don't think he was strong enough to have gone against them. Sirius is an example of a character who did openly go against the philosophies of his family, and he paid the price. He was essentially disowned and tells Harry he spent most of his free time with the Potter family instead. I think it takes a huge amount of courage to do what Sirius did, and I don't expect every character to have the same strong personality necessary to make the same choice. I give Sirius great credit for having done so when he was still so young, but I can't consider Draco hopeless as a person for not doing the same. Sometimes it takes a huge, life-changing event to knock some introspection and desire for change into a person, as I think the threatening and eventual loss of Lily's life did for Snape. Perhaps the events of the war, being on the losing side and having himself and his family in mortal danger ended up being a catalyst for Draco to change some of his attitudes.

I see your points. And I agree with them. I undermined the how serious the fact Ron and Katie nearly got killed is. And yes I ment people should be more forgiving of him. Also, I think we forget how Harry is an extraoridnary person espically for his age and after everything he has had to go through. It's very easy to compare the two of them. But really I think its an unfair comparison. And I also agree with BEB I don't think Draco would have done those things under different circumstances. But he did pick a side and he chose wrong. I guess most of the things we could think in the last book may be him trying to be better could actually just be him being spineless.

Draco isn't a character I personally had much of an opinion on. I neither hated him or loved him. I only became interested in how he might have turned out after the war because I'm more interested in his son, Scorpius, and how Draco would have raised him.

For someone who would not kill anyone he made 3 very good stabs at it. Katie would have died but there was help to hand, Ron would definitely have died if Harry hadn't remembered abut the bezoar, and I think Draco would have killed Dumbledore but for the fact that Dumbledore was able to talk him down.

I disagree with that last. I agree with Harry that he would not have done it. I think Draco was trying to talk himself into it, more than Dumbledore was talking him out of it; he had to, because he realized that he just was not a point-blank killer. He was only able to make attempts before, because he was at range, where he didn't have to look into the face of the man he was assigned to kill.

I recognize it's somewhat a matter of interpretation, though.

He did nothing to help the prisoners at Malfoy Manor, he waffled when he was called on to identify Harry, just like he waffled with Dumbledore. Both parties were standing in front of him looking him in the eye and Draco had trouble with that.

I would call that help. Whether he does it out of cowardice or a sense of moral outrage, it's still help.

That being said, I have trouble seeing it as primarily a case of cowardice. What had he to fear from fingering Harry? Why would he be in danger for identifying him (more than he was already, for being a Death Eater)? I think he knew (or thought he knew) what would happen if Voldemort was called: Harry would be killed, and I don't think he could stomach that. EDIT: I mean stomach seeing that. I'm not sure that he had a problem in the abstract with Harry being dead.

It's possible that he was just thinking about what would happen if Voldemort killed Harry--that he and his family would be under Voldemort's thumb for the foreseeable future, and that prospect was unbearable. However, I give Draco a little more credit for humanity than that (scant though that may be), and a little less credit for clear-headed prognostication.

I disagree with that last. I agree with Harry that he would not have done it. I think Draco was trying to talk himself into it, more than Dumbledore was talking him out of it; he had to, because he realized that he just was not a point-blank killer. He was only able to make attempts before, because he was at range, where he didn't have to look into the face of the man he was assigned to kill.

Exactly. Draco never needed to be talked out of anything. He didn't kill Dumbledore immediately after disarming him, he didn't kill Dumbledore after Dumbledore talked to him, and he didn't kill Dumbledore when he had a half-dozen lackeys behind him, congratulating him and supporting him to do the deed. To me, the common denominator is Draco.

That being said, I have trouble seeing it as primarily a case of cowardice. What had he to fear from fingering Harry? Why would he be in danger for identifying him (more than he was already, for being a Death Eater)? I think he knew (or thought he knew) what would happen if Voldemort was killed: Harry would be killed, and I don't think he could stomach that.

I believe you mean "if Voldemort was called: Harry would be killed," in which case I completely agree. I've never gotten the sense out of the book that Draco actually didn't recognize Harry for who he was. The way it is written always leads me to believe that he did, but simply could not bring himself to look into someone's eyes and condemn them.

I believe you mean "if Voldemort was called: Harry would be killed,"....

I did indeed, thanks for the catch. That's what I get for typing faster than my brain.

Draco isn't that terrible, but he is arrogant. I think that's a very big Malfoy trait.

[staff edit]

Are We Blind????

everyone Interprets "curt" In A Different Way. I Think Those Poised To Look Mildly Towards Draco Because Of The Empathy He Showed During The Last Couple Of Chapters Will See The Curt Nod In A Favorable Light. Those That Can't Forgive Draco Can't. Let's Not Bicker About The Meaning Of The Word Curt. It's A Matter Of Opinion And Interpretation. Thanks Guys :)

I would have more sympathy for Draco if he had not so willingly embraced the bigotry of his parents and Aunt Bella. I would have more sympathy for him if he had not been so eager to enlist with the Death Eaters dispite seeing Cedric's body lying on the ground and them making a crack about how Cedris would only be the first. I would have some sympathy for his feelings about his family if the first time we heard about this great love of family had come up at another time apart from when he was telling Dumbledore that he had no choice but to kill him. In the bathroom scene all he can whine about is his own life. Also I don't believe in blaming the parents after a child has reached the age to think for himself. I think a 17 year old young man is well able to make up his own mind about what is a decent way to live his life. Harry knew, Sirius knew and Ron knew what was a morall way to live.

I'm glad you mentioned the incident with Cedric as it clearly shows that Draco wasn't evil at all IMO.

Draco was 14 then. While Snape was inventing dark spells and Voldemort probably as well at that age, Draco was making "Potter stinks" badges.

Draco loved his status at school. Lucius' son. Like most boys, Draco idolized his father. Additionally, other kids feared his father which made Draco feel even stronger. It also made him think his father was the best and couldn't be wrong ever about anything. Here's the catch, I doubt Draco ever had a real conversation about Voldemort with Lucius. If he had, he'd know his father didn't want Voldemort to return and he'd shut up.

Lucius was around 26 when Voldemort was defeated. That's young. He was among Voldemort's most trusted DEs which means he had joined much earlier and had proved himself worthy. I don't think he knew what he was getting in. However, he didn't like it that much. If he liked it, he'd proudly go to Azkaban like Bella or he'd search for Voldemort like Pettigrew. He did nothing. And why would he? Life was good for Lucius Malfoy after Voldemort was defeated. He became one of the most influential wizards in Britain. His word counted. With Voldemort around, he was just a servant. And Lucius doesn't strike me as someone who likes serving anyone around.

Lucius had extremist views. I assume that was the reason why he joined Voldemort in the first place. However, he was young then and unexperienced. As years passed (and Lucius was around 40 in GoF), he realised that it would be better if he kept these views to himself and spread his influence using different means. He was always politically correct in public. For example, he didn't call Hermione a mudblood in Knockturn Alley (in CoS) but merely "a girl of no wizarding parents" (or something similar), a phrase acceptible even for muggle-friendly Arthur Weasley. In the same book (and I find it significant that it's in the same book), his own son calls Hermione a mudblood. He either learned it at home or at school. If Draco knew how important was it for his father to keep up appearances, he wouldn't have used that word.

I assume Draco heard Lucius talking against muggleborns at home. Since he idolizes his father, I think Draco assumed his father wanted Voldemort back. Mistake as explained above. So Draco talked about Voldemort's return at school. Apparently he also adopted extremist views. "Apparently" because he didn't really. Draco didn't dedicate a minute of his time thinking about a muggleborn-free wizarding society. He merely thought Lucius wanted that and since Lucius wanted it, it must've been right. Instead of thinking about Voldemort, Draco was making "Potter stinks" badges. So mature. Kids whose parents have extremist views often act that way. They adopt certain views without thinking about them (and they don't really care about them) and talk big because it makes them look "cool" among their peers (who usually don't think much about political issues either). Their parents usually don't discuss their views with them for fear that the child may get something the wrong way and say something wrong publicly (they're usually unaware of the fact that the child has already overheard their conversations). That's Draco's situation IMO. If he talked to Lucius about Voldemort, he'd know his father doesn't want him back and he wouldn't say a thing about it a school. But he didn't. He laughed when Cedric died because "Cedric was a traitor" and he "deserved it" and it made him "look cool among the Slytherins". This is not uncommon for kids who "have" extremist poltical views (they don't really have those views because they don't think about them really, they just think it makes them look cool).

Unlike Draco, Lucius really has extremist views and he is really dangerous. He really couldn't care less about Cedric. Do you think he'd laugh? I doubt it. I think he'd even offer his condolences to Amos.

All in all, that particular situation clearly shows that Draco was just a kid who liked to talk big, didn't care about what he said and didn't really dedicate 5 minutes of his free time to "his poltical views". I'm not saying he wouldn't really adopt extremist views like his father if he did think about it, but I doubt he'd talk about Voldemort's return knowing that his father could be in trouble for not searching for him. And he certainly wouldn't go around calling people mudbloods or laughing at the dead. Because he'd know he has to keep up appearances. Draco was just a kid who didn't know what he was talking about. Reality check came in HBP when daddy was gone.

All of the above if of course just my opinion and my interpretation.

I would just like to add that I don't think Narcissa or Lucius would disown Draco like Sirius' parents. I think they loved their son more than Voldemort or politics. I don't think Draco was afraid of them. Quite the contrary, I think Narcissa was on a verge of break-down and Draco was lost and scared without Lucius.

=BadEyeBella;5865018]I'm glad you mentioned the incident with Cedric as it clearly shows that Draco wasn't evil at all IMO.

Draco was 14 then. While Snape was inventing dark spells and Voldemort probably as well at that age, Draco was making "Potter stinks" badges.

And at the end of the book he says;

"You've picked the losing side, Potter! I warned you! I told you you ought to choose your company more carefully, remember? When we met on the train, first day at Hogwarts? I told you not to hang around with riffraff like this!" He jerked his head at Ron and Hermione. "Too late now. Potter! They'll be the first to go, now the Dark Lord's back! Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first! Well - second - Diggory was the f-" JK Rowling Goblet of Fire

That sounds very much like supporting genocide to me.

Draco loved his status at school. Lucius' son. Like most boys, Draco idolized his father. Additionally, other kids feared his father which made Draco feel even stronger. It also made him think his father was the best and couldn't be wrong ever about anything. Here's the catch, I doubt Draco ever had a real conversation about Voldemort with Lucius. If he had, he'd know his father didn't want Voldemort to return and he'd shut up.

Lucius was around 26 when Voldemort was defeated. That's young. He was among Voldemort's most trusted DEs which means he had joined much earlier and had proved himself worthy. I don't think he knew what he was getting in. However, he didn't like it that much. If he liked it, he'd proudly go to Azkaban like Bella or he'd search for Voldemort like Pettigrew. He did nothing. And why would he? Life was good for Lucius Malfoy after Voldemort was defeated. He became one of the most influential wizards in Britain. His word counted. With Voldemort around, he was just a servant. And Lucius doesn't strike me as someone who likes serving anyone around.

Lucius had extremist views. I assume that was the reason why he joined Voldemort in the first place. However, he was young then and unexperienced. As years passed (and Lucius was around 40 in GoF), he realised that it would be better if he kept these views to himself and spread his influence using different means. He was always politically correct in public. For example, he didn't call Hermione a mudblood in Knockturn Alley (in CoS) but merely "a girl of no wizarding parents" (or something similar), a phrase acceptible even for muggle-friendly Arthur Weasley. In the same book (and I find it significant that it's in the same book), his own son calls Hermione a mudblood. He either learned it at home or at school. If Draco knew how important was it for his father to keep up appearances, he wouldn't have used that word.

I assume Draco heard Lucius talking against muggleborns at home. Since he idolizes his father, I think Draco assumed his father wanted Voldemort back. Mistake as explained above. So Draco talked about Voldemort's return at school. Apparently he also adopted extremist views. "Apparently" because he didn't really. Draco didn't dedicate a minute of his time thinking about a muggleborn-free wizarding society. He merely thought Lucius wanted that and since Lucius wanted it, it must've been right. Instead of thinking about Voldemort, Draco was making "Potter stinks" badges. So mature. Kids whose parents have extremist views often act that way. They adopt certain views without thinking about them (and they don't really care about them) and talk big because it makes them look "cool" among their peers (who usually don't think much about political issues either). Their parents usually don't discuss their views with them for fear that the child may get something the wrong way and say something wrong publicly (they're usually unaware of the fact that the child has already overheard their conversations). That's Draco's situation IMO. If he talked to Lucius about Voldemort, he'd know his father doesn't want him back and he wouldn't say a thing about it a school. But he didn't. He laughed when Cedric died because "Cedric was a traitor" and he "deserved it" and it made him "look cool among the Slytherins". This is not uncommon for kids who "have" extremist poltical views (they don't really have those views because they don't think about them really, they just think it makes them look cool).

Unlike Draco, Lucius really has extremist views and he is really dangerous. He really couldn't care less about Cedric. Do you think he'd laugh? I doubt it. I think he'd even offer his condolences to Amos.

All in all, that particular situation clearly shows that Draco was just a kid who liked to talk big, didn't care about what he said and didn't really dedicate 5 minutes of his free time to "his poltical views". I'm not saying he wouldn't really adopt extremist views like his father if he did think about it, but I doubt he'd talk about Voldemort's return knowing that his father could be in trouble for not searching for him. And he certainly wouldn't go around calling people mudbloods or laughing at the dead. Because he'd know he has to keep up appearances. Draco was just a kid who didn't know what he was talking about. Reality check came in HBP when daddy was gone.

All of the above if of course just my opinion and my interpretation.

I would just like to add that I don't think Narcissa or Lucius would disown Draco like Sirius' parents. I think they loved their son more than Voldemort or politics. I don't think Draco was afraid of them. Quite the contrary, I think Narcissa was on a verge of break-down and Draco was lost and scared without Lucius.

That's an awful lot about Lucius and not very much about Draco. I will just say this, it is all too easy to blame Draco's parents for Draco's crimes. I don't believe in doing that actually. I kind of think that Draco had his own brain and that brain was at school 9 months out of the year and very few people at that school espoused the bigotry of Lucius and perhaps Narcissa. Draco could have chosen differently but he didn't. It was his choice to try his hand at murder and it was his choice to enslave Rosemerta to aid him in doing it. It was his choice to try again after he succeeded in nearly killing Katie Bell, it was his choice to try and repair the cabinet to let extremely dangerous people into the school where there was young children. (Fenrir Greyback, ugh). It was his choice to send a bottle of poison into the school and that poison came perilously close to killing Ron. These were all Draco's choices, no one else's. Therefor IMO he is the one who is to blame, not his father. His father has his own crimes to answer for.

That's an awful lot about Lucius and not very much about Draco. I will just say this, it is all too easy to blame Draco's parents for Draco's crimes. I don't believe in doing that actually. I kind of think that Draco had his own brain and that brain was at school 9 months out of the year and very few people at that school espoused the bigotry of Lucius and perhaps Narcissa.

I don't think that this is quite true for Draco. The part of the school which Draco sees most is the Slytherin common room, which seems to be teeming with people who espoused bigotry, and the one responsible for disciplining these students and setting them on the straight and narrow seemed to have had no interest in doing this, perhaps in order to keep up his cover, and perhaps just because it rubbed Harry the wrong way.

This post and wording seems to indicate that Draco was being constantly berated to change his ways, but the fact is, there is no canon to indicate that that was the case. If I remember correctly, Draco was mentioned as being disciplined in PS for being awake at night, and beyond that I don't think it happens again. Hogwarts seems to have been a place for his bigotry to thrive and grow, fostered by his concentrated association with other bigots, and the lack of opposing influences directed towards specifically him.

Not only that, but I also see the underlying assumption that Draco would be able to fairly consider the words of anyone trying to influence him against his parents, when that is exactly what his upbringing meant he couldn't do.

Just a note, I wrote about Lucius to show why IMO Draco knew very little (if anything) about Voldemort. I could've merely stated it, but I thought it would be better to explain my views. I think the difference between Lucius' intrests and Draco's speech (and Draco doesn't think his speech goes against his father's best interests IMO) is important to show that Draco was very badly informed.

Do you think Draco would be willing and ready to kill/enslave all those people if his father was around and in Voldemort's favour? Some 16 year-olds are mature, but most aren't. It's a fact and even the law acknowledges it. I do blame Narcissa for not making the situation any easier (like I said, I think she was supposed to swallow her pride and turn to Andromeda whose daughter is an auror), but I don't disagree with you when you say that all those Draco's choices. They were. But I also take into consideration the circumstances. Draco just wasn't prepared for this. Nobody prepared him. He rellied on Lucius solely and then that protection was gone. His mother's life was at stake, he didn't trust Dumbledore or think Dumbledore would help him (Draco was at least aware of the fact that he was the enemy in Dumbledore's eyes), his mad aunt suddenly took over and he was assigned to kill Dumbledore as punishment for Lucius. It's a terrible situation and however nasty Draco was only an innocent boy (innocent until HBP, of course, because he didn't harm anyone really until then). It would take a lot of courage to change sides in such situation. Imagine if he swallowed his pride and put aside his fears and asked for Dumbledore's help and Voldemort killed his mother. That was a possibility. Maybe Dumbledore would help them out before Voldemort could reach Narcissa, but when comes to loved ones even the smallest chance that things might go terribly wrong seems big.

I still disagree with you when it comes to Draco's understanding of what he said. I don't think he thought about his words or really cared that much. He just wanted to threaten them the "Draco way" ("Insert_name will hear about this/hurt you!"). I can't take seriously a boy who spends his Easter holdays making ridiculous badges. I think he was just bragging because his dad was a top DE and had the "privledge" of being around a powerful wizard like Voldemort. Draco took great pride in that IMO. If Draco knew what Lucius did with the diary and how he couldn't care less about searching for Voldemort, he wouldn't be that happy.

I don't think that this is quite true for Draco. The part of the school which Draco sees most is the Slytherin common room, which seems to be teeming with people who espoused bigotry, and the one responsible for disciplining these students and setting them on the straight and narrow seemed to have had no interest in doing this, perhaps in order to keep up his cover, and perhaps just because it rubbed Harry the wrong way.

Teeming with those who espoused bigotry? In that case, is the bad reputation of Slytherin wholly deserved? I do not think that every single Slytherin was a bigot. I don't think that a quarter of the population of wizarding Britain were racists.


This post and wording seems to indicate that Draco was being constantly berated to change his ways, but the fact is, there is no canon to indicate that that was the case. If I remember correctly, Draco was mentioned as being disciplined in PS for being awake at night, and beyond that I don't think it happens again. Hogwarts seems to have been a place for his bigotry to thrive and grow, fostered by his concentrated association with other bigots, and the lack of opposing influences directed towards specifically him.

Draco got detention in PoA for trying to sabotage the Quidditch match by dressing up as a Dementor. Draco was not allowed to do as he wished at Hogwarts, apart from Potions class. The rest of the time, he was expected to conform to the same rules as everyone else, generations of pure-blood or no.

Not only that, but I also see the underlying assumption that Draco would be able to fairly consider the words of anyone trying to influence him against his parents, when that is exactly what his upbringing meant he couldn't do.

IMO, Draco refused to think for himself. The buck has to stop somewhere. Others proved capable of thinking for themselves and going against their families - Sirius, Andromeda, Percy. Even Barty Crouch, even though he went in completely the opposite direction. Upbringing is not definitive. It suited Draco too well to have an entitlement complex and look down his nose at others.


Do you think Draco would be willing and ready to kill/enslave all those people if his father was around and in Voldemort's favour?

He relished the idea of it at the end of GoF, when his father was still in Voldemort's favour, at least as far as he knew. He taunted Harry about Cedric's death, and warned him that Ron and Hermione would be next.

Being out of Voldemort's favour was the only thing that led Draco to be less keen on being a Death Eater. He didn't want to serve someone who treated him and his family like dirt. He didn't expect to be treated as badly as any Muggle or Muggleborn.

I still disagree with you when it comes to Draco's understanding of what he said. I don't think he thought about his words or really cared that much. He just wanted to threaten them the "Draco way" ("Insert_name will hear about this/hurt you!"). I can't take seriously a boy who spends his Easter holdays making ridiculous badges. I think he was just bragging because his dad was a top DE and had the "privledge" of being around a powerful wizard like Voldemort. Draco took great pride in that IMO.

And I can't think well of a boy who gloats about the murder of one student and the potential murders of others, as Draco did at the end of GoF. He was fourteen/fifteen years old at that point, I think he knew what death was by then.


If Draco knew what Lucius did with the diary and how he couldn't care less about searching for Voldemort, he wouldn't be that happy.


Draco didn't know what Lucius did with the diary, but he was at Hogwarts when the diary wreaked its havoc. He was at Hogwarts when students were being Petrified. He expressed a hope that someone would be murdered - Hermione in particular. He knew that his father knew a lot about it, but that Lucius wouldn't tell him anything. I can't see Draco being unhappy about what Lucius did with the diary.

Teeming with those who espoused bigotry? In that case, is the bad reputation of Slytherin wholly deserved? I do not think that every single Slytherin was a bigot. I don't think that a quarter of the population of wizarding Britain were racists.

Well, the question of whether a quarter of the students were sorted into Slytherin aside, every Slytherin encountered in the novels seems to be quite onside with Draco. I never see any evidence of him ever encountering resistance amongst his house-mates, and keep in mind that those are the ones with whom he spends the most time.

Draco got detention in PoA for trying to sabotage the Quidditch match by dressing up as a Dementor. Draco was not allowed to do as he wished at Hogwarts, apart from Potions class. The rest of the time, he was expected to conform to the same rules as everyone else, generations of pure-blood or no.

He was, yes, but that seems to be beside my point. When did Draco ever come up against a teacher who berated him about equality and punished him for his bigotry? The claim was made that in his time at Hogwarts, he was in the presence of forces who would rival the influence of eleven years living with his parents, but I can't see it. He gets supported and favoured by the head of his house, and doesn't seem to attract that much attention from the rest of the staff.

He is put in detention twice, it seems, and neither time is it for anything related to his parents beliefs. In fact, one of the more egregious things he does, attempting to get Hagrid sacked for the crime of being a "half-breed," only ends up reinforcing his parents' message, as Hagrid is forced to face the loss of his creature, and has to suffer humiliation.

IMO, Draco refused to think for himself.

I agree, and that is, really, my point.

There is a big difference, in my opinion, between someone who commits horrible acts whilst refusing to think for himself, and someone who thinks and then commits the acts, such as Tom Riddle.

Clearly, the big difference between his actions up to HBP and his actions after is that, at a certain point, the actions being forced upon him struck something in him which, for once, he could not ignore.

Yes, he was considering it when he saw something to his advantage.

JKR thinks otherwise (http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1572399/harry-potter-author-jk-rowling-outs-dumbledore.jhtml): "If the question is whether Draco would have committed the murder, my answer is no," Rowling said. "I don't think he would. He had lowered his wand. He was prepared to come over to Dumbledore's side. I hope you see that there's some of that same feeling in Book Seven, when he does try to protect Harry. But he's in too deep. Like a lot of characters, he's not a hero. There's a real moral cowardice to Draco. But is he wholly bad? Absolutely not."

Draco has enough bad qualities in canon without creating more.

He relished the idea of it at the end of GoF, when his father was still in Voldemort's favour, at least as far as he knew. He taunted Harry about Cedric's death, and warned him that Ron and Hermione would be next.

Being out of Voldemort's favour was the only thing that led Draco to be less keen on being a Death Eater. He didn't want to serve someone who treated him and his family like dirt. He didn't expect to be treated as badly as any Muggle or Muggleborn.

It was all talk IMO. Draco did support the actions of the DEs, but not because he really thought about it and not because he'd do it himself. He supported them because it made him feel even more superior. He knew his dad was a DE and that was enough. If Lucius was around and in Voldemort's favour, Draco wouldn't be given the task he was given IMO. If he became a DE under such circumstances, I don't think he woud physically harm anyone in school. He'd have to keep the mark a secret so he'd probably just continue insulting people and scaring them with stories about DEs like in previous years.

JKR's quote above is great. If Draco couldn't kill Dumbledore (whom he really hated and considered unfair) in a situation where his life and his mother's life depended on it, I doubt he'd have it in himself to kill him under more favourable circumstances.


And I can't think well of a boy who gloats about the murder of one student and the potential murders of others, as Draco did at the end of GoF. He was fourteen/fifteen years old at that point, I think he knew what death was by then.

I'm not excusing him, but I don't take him seriously. I think a 14-year-old who adopted extremist views (he doesn't even dedicate 5 minutes of his time to think about) can change his views later in life when he realizes he was supporting criminals and feel embarrassed about what he was saying.



Draco didn't know what Lucius did with the diary, but he was at Hogwarts when the diary wreaked its havoc. He was at Hogwarts when students were being Petrified. He expressed a hope that someone would be murdered - Hermione in particular. He knew that his father knew a lot about it, but that Lucius wouldn't tell him anything. I can't see Draco being unhappy about what Lucius did with the diary.

You misunderstood me. If he knew Voldemort would be furious that Lucius ended up destroying the diary, he wouldn't be happy with Voldemort's return but afraid of it.

=willfitz;5865336]I don't think that this is quite true for Draco. The part of the school which Draco sees most is the Slytherin common room, which seems to be teeming with people who espoused bigotry, and the one responsible for disciplining these students and setting them on the straight and narrow seemed to have had no interest in doing this, perhaps in order to keep up his cover, and perhaps just because it rubbed Harry the wrong way.

That is hard to answer accurately as we never see inside the Slytherin Common Room aprt from the scene in COS and the it's only Draco with the fake Goyle and Crabbe (Harry and Ron). I simply find it impossible to believe that a group of children, aged between 11 and 17 found nothing better to do with their time than to spout a lot of bigotted propaganda.

This post and wording seems to indicate that Draco was being constantly berated to change his ways, but the fact is, there is no canon to indicate that that was the case. If I remember correctly, Draco was mentioned as being disciplined in PS for being awake at night, and beyond that I don't think it happens again. Hogwarts seems to have been a place for his bigotry to thrive and grow, fostered by his concentrated association with other bigots, and the lack of opposing influences directed towards specifically him.

As Furry has already pointed out Draco did recieve dicscipline. Also he was very careful not to saying the most offensive words where a teacher would hear him. As no other Slytherin ever attempts to come to Dracos side apart from Crabbe and Goyke I have to assume that they disliked Draco as much as Harry did.

Not only that, but I also see the underlying assumption that Draco would be able to fairly consider the words of anyone trying to influence him against his parents, when that is exactly what his upbringing meant he couldn't do

He didn't have a brain or free will? How many children do you know that followed the family line exactly when growing up. Did all of them turn out to be clones of their parents?


JKR thinks otherwise (http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1572399/harry-potter-author-jk-rowling-outs-dumbledore.jhtml): "If the question is whether Draco would have committed the murder, my answer is no," Rowling said. "I don't think he would. He had lowered his wand. He was prepared to come over to Dumbledore's side. I hope you see that there's some of that same feeling in Book Seven, when he does try to protect Harry. But he's in too deep. Like a lot of characters, he's not a hero. There's a real moral cowardice to Draco. But is he wholly bad? Absolutely not."

Draco has enough bad qualities in canon without creating more.

I am awar of wha Rowling says in interviews, I don't think though that I am bound by what she says in an interview. I can think for myself. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't.

=BadEyeBella;5865904]It was all talk IMO. Draco did support the actions of the DEs, but not because he really thought about it and not because he'd do it himself. He supported them because it made him feel even more superior. He knew his dad was a DE and that was enough. If Lucius was around and in Voldemort's favour, Draco wouldn't be given the task he was given IMO. If he became a DE under such circumstances, I don't think he woud physically harm anyone in school. He'd have to keep the mark a secret so he'd probably just continue insulting people and scaring them with stories about DEs like in previous years.

In your opinion, is Draco ever capable of thinking for himself? I think that Draco is capable of doing this and I think he did.


JKR's quote above is great. If Draco couldn't kill Dumbledore (whom he really hated and considered unfair) in a situation where his life and his mother's life depended on it, I doubt he'd have it in himself to kill him under more favourable circumstances.

This is an interview, it is not Canon. Well to be fair some people do regard her interviews as Canon. Here she is probably correct. Draco was incapable of killing Dumbledore while looking at him. He was more than capable of attempting murder from a what he considered a safe distance.

I'm not excusing him, but I don't take him seriously. I think a 14-year-old who adopted extremist views (he doesn't even dedicate 5 minutes of his time to think about) can change his views later in life when he realizes he was supporting criminals and feel embarrassed about what he was saying.

That could well be, the problem with Draco is we never see such a scene in Canon.

You misunderstood me. If he knew Voldemort would be furious that Lucius ended up destroying the diary, he wouldn't be happy with Voldemort's return but afraid of it.

I can only go on what I read in Canon. Lucius did not seem to be upset at Voldemort's return in the graveyard scene in GOF. There's Lucius and there's Voldemort and Lucius is busy assuring Voldemort he is as faithful as ever. I don't think, and this is just my opinion that Voldemort asked after the diary. I think he assumed that Lucius still had it safe and sound and Lucius certainly never told anybody about it. Not Draco, that's for sure. So I am not to sure why you mentioned the diary in relation to Draco. He didn't know about the diary and I'm fairly sure he knew nothing about Horcruxes.

In your opinion, is Draco ever capable of thinking for himself? I think that Draco is capable of doing this and I think he did.

Yes, he is. In HBP when he's left all alone.



This is an interview, it is not Canon. Well to be fair some people do regard her interviews as Canon. Here she is probably correct. Draco was incapable of killing Dumbledore while looking at him. He was more than capable of attempting murder from a what he considered a safe distance.

And nobody is arguing that. I even said he was in my previous posts. However, I cannot disregard the circumstances he was in. His situation was terrible.


That could well be, the problem with Draco is we never see such a scene in Canon. The last we see of him is being curt to Harry and Ron on the train platform. And I agree with the Oxford English Dictionary of curt as being 'rudely short'.

That's why I used the word "can". Maybe he changed. Maybe he didn't. Maybe he will. Maybe he won't.


I can only go on what I read in Canon. Lucius did not seem to be upset at Voldemort's return in the graveyard scene in GOF. There's Lucius and there's Voldemort and Lucius is busy assuring Voldemort he is as faithful as ever. I don't think, and this is just my opinion that Voldemort asked after the diary. I think he assumed that Lucius still had it safe and sound and Lucius certainly never told anybody about it. Not Draco, that's for sure. So I am not to sure why you mentioned the diary in relation to Draco. He didn't know about the diary and I'm fairly sure he knew nothing about Horcruxes.

I disagree. Avery and Karkaroff did the same thing Lucius did (abandoned Voldemort after his fall), one ended up being tortured and the other ran away and got killed. He didn't have a reason to fear Voldemort any less than they did IMO. Since I don't think he places his political views above his personal safety, I don't think could've been overjoyed with Voldemort's return.

Regarding the diary, it's hypothetical. It's irrelevant whether Lucius said anything and whether Voldemort found out. The only thing relevant is the following: if Draco knew his father ended up destroying Voldemort's horcrux and how furious Voldemort would be (if I remember correctly, Dumbledore commented in HBP VOldemort was furious), would he be happy with Voldemort's return? I think he wouldn't.

For the reasons stated above, I don't think Lucius wanted Voldemort back. I don't think Draco would ever support anything his father wouldn't. However, Draco openly supported Voldemort. Supporting Voldemort when it's not in your best interest is not logical to me so I can only conclude that Draco wasn't well informed, that he had no idea what he was talking about.

=BadEyeBella;5865920]Yes, he is. In HBP when he's left all alone.

Is that the scene in the bathroom where he is whining about having no choice? That's what happens when you join up with a gang of terrorists, you have two choices,
1. Do what they say and live a little longer,
2. Develop a moral conscience and don't do what they say, you may die a little bit sooner but at least you will be able to look at yourself in the mirror. That seems to be the trouble Draco was having. I wonder how he shaved? He was well past the age when he would have to.

And nobody is arguing that. I even said he was in my previous posts. However, I cannot disregard the circumstances he was in. His situation was terrible.

And he put himself into those circumstances. Nobody to blame but himself.



That's why I used the word "can". Maybe he changed. Maybe he didn't. Maybe he will. Maybe he won't.

Well the bif problem with Draco is never did change, IMO



I disagree. Avery and Karkaroff did the same thing Lucius did (abandoned Voldemort after his fall), one ended up being tortured and the other ran away and got killed. He didn't have a reason to fear Voldemort any less than they did IMO. Since I don't think he places his political views above his personal safety, I don't think could've been overjoyed with Voldemort's return.

Well he shouldn't have enlisted in The Terrorist Orginization then. You know, do the crime, pay the time. It's no fun being between a rock and a hard place, but when you are the one who thought it looked good and jumped in there, you have nobody but yourself to blame.

Regarding the diary, it's hypothetical. It's irrelevant whether Lucius said anything and whether Voldemort found out. The only thing relevant is the following: if Draco knew his father ended up destroying Voldemort's horcrux and how furious Voldemort would be (if I remember correctly, Dumbledore commented in HBP VOldemort was furious), would he be happy with Voldemort's return? I think he wouldn't.

I've looked over your posts, why do you keep bringing up the diary? Draco had nothing to do with what his father dd with the diary. He knew nothing about it. Sure if he had known he might have been upset, heck if he had known what was going to happen with Voldemort in the end he never would have joined up with the Death Eaters. But he didn't know and it had nothing to do with his motivations in joining up with Terror Inc.

For the reasons stated above, I don't think Lucius wanted Voldemort back. I don't think Draco would ever support anything his father wouldn't. However, Draco openly supported Voldemort. Supporting Voldemort when it's not in your best interest is not logical to me so I can only conclude that Draco wasn't well informed, that he had no idea what he was talking about

I don't understand what you mean here. What Lucius wanted in his heart of hearts isn't that important. What he did was support Voldemort all the way. That's nothing to do with Draco unless you believe that Draco was nothing more or less than a clone of his father. I think Draco was his own person and he is responsible for what he did that was criminal. His father surely committed terrible crimes of his own, but again they were Lucius', not Draco's. Doesn't Lucius have his own thread?

=BadEyeBella;5865920]Yes, he is. In HBP when he's left all alone.

When is that? Not the bathroom, Myrtle is in there. That can only be when he is in the RoR, when he is repairing the the Cabinet to let the Death Eaters into the school

And nobody is arguing that. I even said he was in my previous posts. However, I cannot disregard the circumstances he was in. His situation was terrible.

Yes it was. It wasn't as bad as Harry's in the graveyard at Little Hangleton, and unlike Harry he was not dragged there against his will. But there is no denying he walked into a very bad situation of his own free will. It could have been hoped that he would have learnt from this, but alas it was not to be IMO.


That's why I used the word "can". Maybe he changed. Maybe he didn't. Maybe he will. Maybe he won't.

I have to be truthful, I didn't read that he ever changed.

I disagree. Avery and Karkaroff did the same thing Lucius did (abandoned Voldemort after his fall), one ended up being tortured and the other ran away and got killed. He didn't have a reason to fear Voldemort any less than they did IMO. Since I don't think he places his political views above his personal safety, I don't think could've been overjoyed with Voldemort's return.

I cannot comment on Lucius in Draco's thread.

Regarding the diary, it's hypothetical. It's irrelevant whether Lucius said anything and whether Voldemort found out. The only thing relevant is the following: if Draco knew his father ended up destroying Voldemort's horcrux and how furious Voldemort would be (if I remember correctly, Dumbledore commented in HBP VOldemort was furious), would he be happy with Voldemort's return? I think he wouldn't.

As we have no idea wyhat Draco knew about his father's crimes, I cannot comment on his thoughts.

For the reasons stated above, I don't think Lucius wanted Voldemort back. I don't think Draco would ever support anything his father wouldn't. However, Draco openly supported Voldemort. Supporting Voldemort when it's not in your best interest is not logical to me so I can only conclude that Draco wasn't well informed, that he had no idea what he was talking about

Lucius was not the first, last or only source of information about what was happening in the WW. The Daily Prophet was publishing the lists of the dead and missing and I am sure that Draco read the paper just like every other student. He certainly read it when it was slandering Harry.

If you don't stop squabbling over semantics and refuse to mark your opinions as such and introduce a bit of moderation to them, bans will follow. Last warning.

That is hard to answer accurately as we never see inside the Slytherin Common Room aprt from the scene in COS and the it's only Draco with the fake Goyle and Crabbe (Harry and Ron). I simply find it impossible to believe that a group of children, aged between 11 and 17 found nothing better to do with their time than to spout a lot of bigotted propaganda.

True, but I'd say that bigoted propaganda was more prominent in the Slytherin Common Room than egalitarian propaganda, judging by every Slytherin character that we meet in the books. What I'm talking about is not people standing on chairs and whipping their housemates into anti-mudblood fervours in between classes, but just the presence of the prevalent attitude of superiority. Remarks such as "have you seen that mudblood Granger" or "if my father was in charge, we wouldn't be letting filth like the Creevey brothers into school" reinforce this message, and I can see them coming up and out of the mouths of Slytherins constantly.

My point is, simply, that Draco ran into much more of this sort of reinforcement than he did any challenge to his family's beliefs.

As Furry has already pointed out Draco did recieve dicscipline. Also he was very careful not to saying the most offensive words where a teacher would hear him. As no other Slytherin ever attempts to come to Dracos side apart from Crabbe and Goyke I have to assume that they disliked Draco as much as Harry did.

I doubt that, and I don't believe you need to assume anything. All of Slytherin's Quidditch team seemed to relish allowing him into their company for the brooms he brought with him, Zabini sits down and chats with him in HBP, Pansy simply dotes upon him... Millicent Bullstrode doesn't really ever come into the story. Never do we really see any confrontation between Draco and his housemates, and generally, when Draco is spouting his bigoted bile, it is during times when his housemates are around, and teachers are not.

He didn't have a brain or free will? How many children do you know that followed the family line exactly when growing up. Did all of them turn out to be clones of their parents?

Not at all, and indeed, neither is Draco. But actually, I think that in the vast majority of cases, as far as I have seen myself and through various studies, children do tend to follow their parents, some to greater extents than others. Of course, it depends on the child. Some are more critical and willing to think for themselves, some will blatantly disagree and rebel no matter what, and some will follow like sheep. To say that Draco was the latter still does not condemn him, however, because with different parents, it means he would have followed a completely different path.

Once again, I am not saying that Draco was a good person, corrupted by his parents. Rather, I feel that it is just a shame to assume that everyone has the mindset to look at their parents through a critical set of eyes. I think that, because Draco was more or less unable to do this, it led him to become what he was, and so the fault really lies in his parents' guidance, and the personality which led him to follow it. The major point is that this is in stark, stark contrast to a character like Voldemort, who consciously, purposefully and independently pursued a life of murder and evil.

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Draco was incapable of killing Dumbledore while looking at him. He was more than capable of attempting murder from a what he considered a safe distance. To paraphrase Dumbledore, his attempts were pathetic. Now, it's possible that Draco was so incredibly stupid that he honestly thought Dumbledore would totally not find it odd that some anonymous person was giving him a necklace (??) and mead and would just slip on the necklace and drink the poison without batting a lash and his job would be done!

Or it's possible that, perhaps subconsciously, Draco was trying to fail. Which would fit more in line with what is stated both in the book and by JKR. Unfortunately, it wouldn't fit well with the line of thinking that Draco is just some stone-cold killer instead of cowardly, racist teenager who isn't very good with the whole thinking for himself thing but is very good at making stupid choices.

Once again, I am not saying that Draco was a good person, corrupted by his parents. Rather, I feel that it is just a shame to assume that everyone has the mindset to look at their parents through a critical set of eyes. I think that, because Draco was more or less unable to do this, it led him to become what he was, and so the fault really lies in his parents' guidance, and the personality which led him to follow it. It seems to me that Draco both did not want to do this and was not equipped to do this. We know, from Tales of Beedle the Bard, that Lucius limited what Draco could read and what he knew of Muggles. He was raised to follow his parents and I'm sure the Black family tree, with all its burn marks, taught him what happened to those who didn't fall in line. And he was spoiled brat who liked being a spoiled brat and, while clever, was not someone gifted with wisdom, intellectual curiosity, or even much common sense. All these things combined created someone unlikely to challenge the status quo which had served him so well.

This puts him in stark contrast with someone like Sirius who although privileged and a brat and prone to cruelty had a sense of adventure and curiosity and a natural rebellious streak to him. He also had people like Andromeda, his Uncle Alphard, the Potters, McGonagall, Hagrid, and Dumbledore. Would Bellatrix have given Draco some money if he'd run away after an argument about his parents' bigoted ways? He'd be lucky if she didn't hunt him down. Would Goyle's parents have let him stay with them knowing it would put them in Voldemort's bad books? Would Snape have broken his cover for Draco when he didn't break it for so many others?

Now, Narcissa was far more devoted than Wahlburga and certainly would have supported her son but she doesn't seem to be one to rock the boat (unless Draco's life is on the line), something she and her son have in common. I doubt Narcissa would have thrown him out - I doubt Lucius would have - but they wouldn't have supported him either and I'm sure they would have made their displeasure known. And Draco would be at odds with his friends, his parents, and his sometimes-favorite teacher.

Sirius had far more courage than Draco, no arguments there. But Sirius also had something else Draco lacked - guidance and support. When he left, as difficult as that must have been, he knew he had options. No one ever gave Draco any other options, except Dumbledore. He was probably the first (and for a long time after that, I'm guessing) the last person to tell him he had other options.

The last we see of him is being curt to Harry and Ron on the train platform. And I agree with the Oxford English Dictionary of curt as being 'rudely short'.That is not what happened. Draco was not curt to them, he gave a curt nod. Two very different things with very different implications. Curt in this case modifying the word nod meaning he gave a short nod. And considering he just looked up to see several people staring at him and his family without saying anything, just staring I think that's an appropriate reaction to have when you notice people have been watching you, talking about you, and were being obvious about both.

[staff edit]Draco has given us several books worth of rude behavior and nodding his head in greeting is not one of them.

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To paraphrase Dumbledore, his attempts were pathetic. Now, it's possible that Draco was so incredibly stupid that he honestly thought Dumbledore would totally not find it odd that some anonymous person was giving him a necklace (??) and mead and would just slip on the necklace and drink the poison without batting a lash and his job would be done!

You know I'd make book that Ron, Katie and Rosemerta didn't think those efforts were pathetic. I think they might just think they were fairly serious attempts to kill them.

Or it's possible that, perhaps subconsciously, Draco was trying to fail. Which would fit more in line with what is stated both in the book and by JKR. Unfortunately, it wouldn't fit well with the line of thinking that Draco is just some stone-cold killer instead of cowardly, racist teenager who isn't very good with the whole thinking for himself thing but is very good at making stupid choices.

I think if you're subconscious is trying to fail, you don't try the second time or the third. There's something about sending deadly poison to someone and letting a bunch of murderers into the castle where there are children sleeping, (Fenrir Greyback?), that makes me think Draco's subconscious was hard at work trying to be a stone killer.

It seems to me that Draco both did not want to do this and was not equipped to do this. We know, from Tales of Beedle the Bard, that Lucius limited what Draco could read and what he knew of Muggles. He was raised to follow his parents and I'm sure the Black family tree, with all its burn marks, taught him what happened to those who didn't fall in line. And he was spoiled brat who liked being a spoiled brat and, while clever, was not someone gifted with wisdom, intellectual curiosity, or even much common sense. All these things combined created someone unlikely to challenge the status quo which had served him so well.

Blaming the parents, when does it stop being the parents fault and start being Draco's fault. He wasn't 12 or thirteen, he was seventeen when he made those attempts and I just don't think he was a stupid child anymore. Also I don't think being dense is much of a defense against an attempted murder charge. I also don't think Draco was dense.


This puts him in stark contrast with someone like Sirius who although privileged and a brat and prone to cruelty had a sense of adventure and curiosity and a natural rebellious streak to him. He also had people like Andromeda, his Uncle Alphard, the Potters, McGonagall, Hagrid, and Dumbledore. Would Bellatrix have given Draco some money if he'd run away after an argument about his parents' bigoted ways? He'd be lucky if she didn't hunt him down. Would Goyle's parents have let him stay with them knowing it would put them in Voldemort's bad books? Would Snape have broken his cover for Draco when he didn't break it for so many others?

You know some people might take offence at the charge that Sirius was cruel. He was reckless and he hated people who thought that the Dark Arts was a fun Study subject, but you see, I don't think that is cruelty. I think that is disgust with someone who studies up on the latest way to torture and kill. Sirius also had a moral backbone, how he developed it growing up in the exact same situation as Draco did is a mystery, but there it is. He leaves home at just the age Draco is when he joins up with the WW major gang of terrorists. Just goes to show that environment doesn't mean everything, I suppose.

Now, Narcissa was far more devoted than Wahlburga and certainly would have supported her son but she doesn't seem to be one to rock the boat (unless Draco's life is on the line), something she and her son have in common. I doubt Narcissa would have thrown him out - I doubt Lucius would have - but they wouldn't have supported him either and I'm sure they would have made their displeasure known. And Draco would be at odds with his friends, his parents, and his sometimes-favorite teacher.

When did Narcissa mention Wahlburga? Can't argue with the fact she loved Draco. He could have come home dripping blood and she would have asked what nasty Mudblood had forced Draco to kill them for the crime of existing, IMO.

Sirius had far more courage than Draco, no arguments there. But Sirius also had something else Draco lacked - guidance and support. When he left, as difficult as that must have been, he knew he had options. No one ever gave Draco any other options, except Dumbledore. He was probably the first (and for a long time after that, I'm guessing) the last person to tell him he had other options.

Where did Sirius get this guidence and support? He certainly didn't get at his home from his folks.

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You know some people might take offence at the charge that Sirius was cruel. He was reckless and he hated people who thought that the Dark Arts was a fun Study subject, but you see, I don't think that is cruelty. I think that is disgust with someone who studies up on the latest way to torture and kill. Sirius also had a moral backbone, how he developed it growing up in the exact same situation as Draco did is a mystery, but there it is. He leaves home at just the age Draco is when he joins up with the WW major gang of terrorists. Just goes to show that environment doesn't mean everything, I suppose.

This caught my eye, so I'm going to address it in the Sirius thread. :cool:

This caught my eye, so I'm going to address it in the Sirius thread. :cool:

I've answered you there.

I think they might just think they were fairly serious attempts to kill them.

No they weren't attempts to kill Ron, Katie, or Rosemerta. They were attempts to kill Dumbledore and they were pathetic attempts to kill Dumbledore. That they harmed others in the process does not negate that fact nor does the fact that they were ineffectual at their main goal negate the harm they did.

But they aren't the same thing.

That little nuance there is why there are such things as first degree murder and reckless or negligent homicide.

I think if you're subconscious is trying to fail, you don't try the second time or the third.

You do if you believe you and your family will die if you don't attempt anything.

There's something about sending deadly poison to someone and letting a bunch of murderers into the castle where there are children sleeping, (Fenrir Greyback?), that makes me think Draco's subconscious was hard at work trying to be a stone killer.

Well, you might have something to that if Draco hadn't seemed nauseous and afraid when Dumbledore pointed out just what he had done in that regard. Canon is such a pesky thing.

He wasn't 12 or thirteen, he was seventeen when he made those attempts

16, actually. He may have been 17 when he cornered Dumbledore on the tower but canon is not clear on that and canon is clear that it is 17 when a wizard becomes an adult.

And there is a very good reason why things like the age of majority exists. If a young wizard isn't old enough to be left to his own devices to have a drink of Firewhiskey or to be trusted to do magic without the Trace on him, there is no reason to expect that he have the good judgement necessary to deal with Voldemort.

Draco was a racist, selfish, classist, spoiled twit. Those were his own failings. Choosing not to take the opportunities offered to him by being at Hogwarts and exposed to other viewpoints was his own choice. However, I don't think his actions in the 6th book were of his own choosing.

I also don't think Draco was dense.

Neither do I! I'm glad we agree on that.

You know some people might take offence at the charge that Sirius was cruel.

His treatment of Kreacher was cruel as noted by Dumbledore and even Hermione. Also, his treatment of Snape was often mean-spirited, if not cruel, and the way he used Remus to have a go at Snape was cruel towards everyone involved - Snape, James, and Remus.

Does this mean Sirius was a bad person? No. Do these actions negate his bravery, his generosity towards the Weasleys, Remus, and others? No. Does this make him less clever and imaginative? Nope. But these actions are not merely reckless or brought on by a hatred of Dark Arts. He was, like most of them are, a complex character. I rather like him and empathize with him. He also gave me one of my favorite quotes - "Yes, but the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters."

He could have come home dripping blood and she would have asked what nasty Mudblood had forced Draco to kill them for the crime of existing, IMO.

I think if that were true she would have been far more enthused about his having joined the ranks of Death Eaters. But, she knew he would fail and that his failure would mean Voldemort - not Dumbledore or the Order - would kill him. If, as you said, she would have reacted as such, I imagine she would have been pleased with Bellatrix taking him under her wing and would have gone to Snape to see if he had any useful killing skills that he could pass on rather than asking him to stop Draco's mission.

So, no, I can't agree with your interpretation as canon seems to contradict it.


Where did Sirius get this guidence and support? He certainly didn't get at his home from his folks.

You must have skipped over the part where I mentioned all the people who supported him. I understand, my post is wordy :)

Here, I'll just copy and paste what I said: He also had people like Andromeda, his Uncle Alphard, the Potters, McGonagall, Hagrid, and Dumbledore.

[QUOTE=birdi86;5872138]No they weren't attempts to kill Ron, Katie, or Rosemerta. They were attempts to kill Dumbledore and they were pathetic attempts to kill Dumbledore. That they harmed others in the process does not negate that fact nor does the fact that they were ineffectual at their main goal negate the harm they did.

But they aren't the same thing.

That's a fairly fine hair to split IMO. I don't think it mattered whether they were his target or not. He planned to kill someone, unfortunately for them, they were the someones he got.

That little nuance there is why there are such things as first degree murder and reckless or negligent homicide.

In any case you have a crime being committed. In this case I think the definion of the crime would be attempted murder, it would be immaterial that the victims were not his primary target, he still tried to murder someone. Recllessness or negligence dpes not imply intent and Draco had a whole load of intent. He IMO, just wasn't that fussed if someone else died because of that intent besides Dumbledore.


You do if you believe you and your family will die if you don't attempt anything.

Funny how scenario that only seems to occur to Draco after his first two attempts to kill Dumbledore only succeeded in nearly killing two innocent parties and the repair of the cabinet proved more difficult than he thought.



Well, you might have something to that if Draco hadn't seemed nauseous and afraid when Dumbledore pointed out just what he had done in that regard. Canon is such a pesky thing.

Yeah it sure is pesky when you can't hide in from your actions anymore. There you are facing the old man you've been doing your best to kill in the easiest possible way for you. Instead you have to actually kill him and hey, it's not easy. Sure Draco looked nauseous and afraid. He couldn't hide from the reality anymore, if only Dumbledore had had the dencecy to be killed by one Draco's other methods.



16, actually. He may have been 17 when he cornered Dumbledore on the tower but canon is not clear on that and canon is clear that it is 17 when a wizard becomes an adult.

Draco's birthday was June 5, 1980, he was 17.

And there is a very good reason why things like the age of majority exists. If a young wizard isn't old enough to be left to his own devices to have a drink of Firewhiskey or to be trusted to do magic without the Trace on him, there is no reason to expect that he have the good judgement necessary to deal with Voldemort.

Then it's a good thing Draco was 17.

Draco was a racist, selfish, classist, spoiled twit. Those were his own failings. Choosing not to take the opportunities offered to him by being at Hogwarts and exposed to other viewpoints was his own choice. However, I don't think his actions in the 6th book were of his own choosing.

Then I don't know who else could be held responsible for them. He was an adult in the WW.



Neither do I! I'm glad we agree on that.


His treatment of Kreacher was cruel as noted by Dumbledore and even Hermione. Also, his treatment of Snape was often mean-spirited, if not cruel, and the way he used Remus to have a go at Snape was cruel towards everyone involved - Snape, James, and Remus.

No Sirius was not nice to Kreacher, I think Kreacher paid him back when he conspired ti get Sirius killed. No I don't think Sirius was cruel, as Dumbldore said Sirius was kind to house-elves in general but Kreacher was a bad reminder of everything that had gone wrong in Sirius' life. Perhaps if Kreacher had left off with the insults Sirius would have not yelled at him som much. At least he didn't make Kreachers iron his hands. All he told him to do was get out.

Does this mean Sirius was a bad person? No. Do these actions negate his bravery, his generosity towards the Weasleys, Remus, and others? No. Does this make him less clever and imaginative? Nope. But these actions are not merely reckless or brought on by a hatred of Dark Arts. He was, like most of them are, a complex character. I rather like him and empathize with him. He also gave me one of my favorite quotes - "Yes, but the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters."

Sirius is one of the most complex characters in the books, hi is alos IMO the most tragic. Sirius's tradgedy was theat he never did anything that could ever be construed as criminal and he spent 12 years in prison for a crime he never committed and after he escaped he never got a chance to live.

I think if that were true she would have been far more enthused about his having joined the ranks of Death Eaters. But, she knew he would fail and that his failure would mean Voldemort - not Dumbledore or the Order - would kill him. If, as you said, she would have reacted as such, I imagine she would have been pleased with Bellatrix taking him under her wing and would have gone to Snape to see if he had any useful killing skills that he could pass on rather than asking him to stop Draco's mission.

So, no, I can't agree with your interpretation as canon seems to contradict it.

I don't think Narcissa cared about Draco being a Death Eater, she cared that he had been given what she saw as a suicide mission. During her whole conversation with Snape she never once says it would be terrible if her son murdered someone. All she say is if he fails he will be killed. So I think Canon is pretty clear, Narcissa doesn't want her son to be killed, not that she doesn't want him to be a killer.





You must have skipped over the part where I mentioned all the people who supported him. I understand, my post is wordy :)

Here, I'll just copy and paste what I said:

Who were not there when he left his home for the last time. And unless my memory is failing me, Andromeda was also Draco's aunt. If he wanted to shake the dust of his family's prejudice from his heels. I imagine she would have helped him. And didn't Draco attend the self same school that Sirius did and with the self same teachers who would have been willing to help him? I seem to remember Dumbledore telling him that on top of the tower come to think of it. It was that offer of help that gave Draco the reason to lower his wand. All of this ignores that Draco wanted to be a Death Eater, it was his fondest ambition. He got what he wanted, I don't feel sorry for him. I do feel for Katie Bell, Rosemerta and Ron. Also I kind of feel bad for Bill Weasley,who would never have been attacked if Draco hadn't let the Death Eaters into the school.

No they weren't attempts to kill Ron, Katie, or Rosemerta. They were attempts to kill Dumbledore and they were pathetic attempts to kill Dumbledore. That they harmed others in the process does not negate that fact nor does the fact that they were ineffectual at their main goal negate the harm they did.

But they aren't the same thing.

That little nuance there is why there are such things as first degree murder and reckless or negligent homicide.

I would consider the injuries of Ron and Katie attempted murder. I don't think it matters that they weren't the target - if I fire a gun, attempting to kill somebody, and it hits the wrong person, it is still attempted murder. If I try to poison somebody, and the wrong person drinks it, it is still attempted murder. I don't think it makes a difference that it harmed the wrong person, the crime and the intent was the same.


And there is a very good reason why things like the age of majority exists. If a young wizard isn't old enough to be left to his own devices to have a drink of Firewhiskey or to be trusted to do magic without the Trace on him, there is no reason to expect that he have the good judgement necessary to deal with Voldemort.

But plenty of under-age wizards did have the good judgement to know that Voldemort was evil, that he and his followers were committing heinous acts. The age of legal responsibilty is also far younger than the age of majority. A person can be charged with a crime long before they can legally drink. Or, in the wizarding world, operate without the Trace.


Draco was a racist, selfish, classist, spoiled twit. Those were his own failings. Choosing not to take the opportunities offered to him by being at Hogwarts and exposed to other viewpoints was his own choice. However, I don't think his actions in the 6th book were of his own choosing.

They were a consequence of his choices. Draco wanted to become a Death Eater, and that's exactly what he got. IMO, Draco may have learned that he should be careful what he wishes for.


Does this mean Sirius was a bad person? No. Do these actions negate his bravery, his generosity towards the Weasleys, Remus, and others? No. Does this make him less clever and imaginative? Nope. But these actions are not merely reckless or brought on by a hatred of Dark Arts. He was, like most of them are, a complex character. I rather like him and empathize with him. He also gave me one of my favorite quotes - "Yes, but the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters."


Personally, I never, ever read that quote as meaning that some Death Eaters are good people. I can't see how someone who is a part of something so evil and destructive can possibly be a good person. I took it to mean that not every unpleasant or even bad person is a Death Eater.




Recllessness or negligence dpes not imply intent and Draco had a whole load of intent. He IMO, just wasn't that fussed if someone else died because of that intent besides Dumbledore.

I agree with that. If one is to take into account that JKR often uses Hermione as a mouthpiece, there's Hermione's comment after Ron was poisoned that the person responsible was all the more dangerous because they didn't care who they hurt.


Yeah it sure is pesky when you can't hide in from your actions anymore. There you are facing the old man you've been doing your best to kill in the easiest possible way for you. Instead you have to actually kill him and hey, it's not easy. Sure Draco looked nauseous and afraid. He couldn't hide from the reality anymore, if only Dumbledore had had the dencecy to be killed by one Draco's other methods.


I think Draco may have realised the reality of murder when he was faced with Dumbledore. While I don't exactly think it's a Hallelujah moment, as murder is murder, whether face to face, or hiding behind innocent pawns, I think it does show, that at least, Draco is a slightly better person than Lucius. It's not saying much, but it is something.


I don't think Narcissa cared about Draco being a Death Eater, she cared that he had been given what she saw as a suicide mission. During her whole conversation with Snape she never once says it would be terrible if her son murdered someone. All she say is if he fails he will be killed. So I think Canon is pretty clear, Narcissa doesn't want her son to be killed, not that she doesn't want him to be a killer.

That's a good point. I wonder if it would be better discussed in the Narcissa thread, but it's interesting that she doesn't mention at all that she doesn't want her child to be a murderer.

All of this ignores that Draco wanted to be a Death Eater, it was his fondest ambition. He got what he wanted, I don't feel sorry for him. I do feel for Katie Bell, Rosemerta and Ron. Also I kind of feel bad for Bill Weasley,who would never have been attacked if Draco hadn't let the Death Eaters into the school.

I have a little bit of sympathy for Draco, but only a little bit, because, as you say, he got what he wanted. He wanted to be part of something violent and destructive and hate-filled. He didn't expect to find out what it was like when the shoe was on the other foot.
I also have far more sympathy for those who fought against the Death Eaters or opposed their racist bilge in any way than I do for Draco.

This is NOT the Snape character thread. I've deleted posts that went off track. Please keep the discussion to Draco.

Draco seems more bully than cruel. He strikes me as an out of sight out of mind type person. He didn't witness Katie Bell being cursed by the necklace, or Ron's poisoning. When he is faced with killing Dumbledore, however, or when he sees Charity Burbage floating above the table, he shows disgust, fear and humanity. I think he is all talk, but isn't capable of true evil.
Why else did he pretend not to recognize Harry at Malfoy Manor? Or better yet, Hermione and Ron, acting doubtful when he knew it was them?
I can see how the movie Draco has portrayed a bit differently than book Draco. Tom Felton adds sensitivity to the role. Take notice of him bowing his head at Cedric's memorial, whereas book Draco makes a cruel remark. Book Draco, of course, is canon, but I still don't think of him as evil as much as he is ignorant and cowardly.
He is very much shaped and influenced by how he was raised. His life was spent surrounded by Death Eaters and their way of thinking, so it was probably difficult for him to break away from other's ideals and find his own. Evil, in my opinion, is inbred in a person, and has little to do with how they were raised. Draco showed a conscience, so he wasn't so much evil as he was branded and brainwashed by hate. I believe he would have turned out differently had he been raised differently.

Draco's birthday was June 5, 1980, he was 17.
Draco is only a month older than Harry who was born on July 31st, 1980. Harry has his 17th birthday in DH. Draco, like Harry, is 16 at the opening of HBP.


But plenty of under-age wizards did have the good judgement to know that Voldemort was evil, that he and his followers were committing heinous acts. The age of legal responsibilty is also far younger than the age of majority. A person can be charged with a crime long before they can legally drink. Or, in the wizarding world, operate without the Trace.

Many do make better choices, although I don't recall any other students who also joined the Death Eaters under unknown circumstances and then were pressured to kill their teacher lest they and their family die. So, unfortunately, we have no basis of comparison there.

But, that many do make better choices does not ignore that many will not and many of those who don't might have made better choices had they been older and had more life experience to guide them. The demarcation exists and it does for a reason.

No Sirius was not nice to Kreacher, I think Kreacher paid him back when he conspired ti get Sirius killed.

Kreacher was a house-elf bound to the Black family. Once he was thrown out, he went to the next member of the Black family which would have been Bellatrix. How much choice he had in the matter is debatable. And throwing someone out on the street, someone who is bound to you for reasons not of their choosing, is not an act of kindness.

I don't think Narcissa cared about Draco being a Death Eater, she cared that he had been given what she saw as a suicide mission.

Why would it be a suicide mission if Draco were capable of murder as you say he is and if Narcissa thought the same and support it? If you acknowledge it is a suicide mission than you must acknowledge why it is: It's not because Dumbledore or the Order would have ever killed Draco, it's because Voldemort would have killed Draco had he failed in everything and Narcissa had little reason to believe he would succeed because she did not believe her son was capable of such acts. And rather than training him or asking Snape or Bellatrix to train him, she asks Snape to protect him.


And unless my memory is failing me, Andromeda was also Draco's aunt. If he wanted to shake the dust of his family's prejudice from his heels.

She was blasted from the family tree and from Draco's reaction in the opening of DH to the idea of "baby-sitting the cubs" and Bellatrix's mention, it sounds like neither Narcissa nor Bellatrix had kept in touch. What, if anything, Draco knew of Andromeda is debatable. We don't even know if he was aware of her existence.

And didn't Draco attend the self same school that Sirius did and with the self same teachers who would have been willing to help him? I seem to remember Dumbledore telling him that on top of the tower come to think of it. It was that offer of help that gave Draco the reason to lower his wand

I think Draco didn't realize it was there because they were Gryffindors but exactly! If Draco had believed that from the start, a lot of pain could have been spared for a lot of people.


During her whole conversation with Snape she never once says it would be terrible if her son murdered someone.

I wonder if it would be better discussed in the Narcissa thread, but it's interesting that she doesn't mention at all that she doesn't want her child to be a murderer.

Done for the purposes of the plot.


They were a consequence of his choices. Draco wanted to become a Death Eater, and that's exactly what he got.

All of this ignores that Draco wanted to be a Death Eater, it was his fondest ambition.

Please show me in canon where it is mentioned that Draco wanted to be a Death Eater - and mentioned by Draco and with the words "I want to join Voldemort/become a Death Eater." Because for the life of me, I don't recall this.


He didn't expect to find out what it was like when the shoe was on the other foot.
I also have far more sympathy for those who fought against the Death Eaters or opposed their racist bilge in any way than I do for Draco.

He got what he wanted, I don't feel sorry for him. I do feel for Katie Bell, Rosemerta and Ron. Also I kind of feel bad for Bill Weasley,who would never have been attacked if Draco hadn't let the Death Eaters into the school.

It's Draco thread, of course people are going to be talking about Draco and, if they feel so inclined, feeling sympathy for him.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

Yes and no. Draco never became a real death eater and he never wanted to be part of it. Form the start you can see that Draco is a bully and an annoying character but he is literaly jelous and always tries to have the attention on him, failing. So yes Rowling always displayed him as one of the "bad guys" but she always showed his part of jelousy that made him more human.

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

No bravado, as I said before Draco never wanted to be a Death Eater, as we can see in the train scene form HBP it was another feeble attempt to gain attention but because of his constant insecurity he fails.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?

None of the two, he just is insecure and 100% jelous, this brings him to be mean.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?

All of them one after the other, but he did them for his loved ones. I think Draco in the end will just become a real member of the good side, he was forced on the bad and never really understood what he wanted until the end.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.

He simply turns 100% good step by step, he will be closer to Ron and Harry now.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?

Pansy is not the wife. Draco, as I said before, Draco turns good heliping the good ones capture the remaining death Eaters and fighting for his loved ones just as Harry does.

Why would it be a suicide mission if Draco were capable of murder as you say he is and if Narcissa thought the same and support it? If you acknowledge it is a suicide mission than you must acknowledge why it is: It's not because Dumbledore or the Order would have ever killed Draco, it's because Voldemort would have killed Draco had he failed in everything and Narcissa had little reason to believe he would succeed because she did not believe her son was capable of such acts.

I would also say that he was likely to fail and his mother knew it but for different reasons. It's not that he wasn't capable, in my view, it's because he was supposed to kill Dumbledore, the only wizard Voldemort ever feared. So he was bound to fail because he was no match for Dumbledore, in my view, not because he was incapable of murder.