Draco Malfoy: Character Analysis

I would also say that he was likely to fail and his mother knew it but for different reasons. It's not that he wasn't capable, in my view, it's because he was supposed to kill Dumbledore, the only wizard Voldemort ever feared. So he was bound to fail because he was no match for Dumbledore, in my view, not because he was incapable of murder.

Draco is incapaple of murder by the way, he knows he isn't on the right side but he just can't simply cope with it, he know it would have consequences on his loved ones.

Draco is incapaple of murder by the way, he knows he isn't on the right side but he just can't simply cope with it, he know it would have consequences on his loved ones.

Draco is capable of murder as he nearly killed 2 people in 6th year. Just because Draco tried to kill in a way that meant very little risk to him doesn't mean he isn't capable of murder.

People who poison others are just as guilty of murder as someone who shoots or stabs another person.

Draco is capable of murder as he nearly killed 2 people in 6th year. Just because Draco tried to kill in a way that meant very little risk to him doesn't mean he isn't capable of murder.

People who poison others are just as guilty of murder as someone who shoots or stabs another person.

They were so feeble attempts that I don't think to them as actual murder, the two people who were injured were actual accidents, he didn't want them to happen, and if both objects had arrived to Dumbldore I doubt they would have actually done him anything since he would have never opened an unknown package of drank from a random bottle before checking it. Draco is incapaple of actual murder in my opinion he had so many occasions to kill in HBP and DH but he never did. I am sure that when he made the two attempts in HBP he was sure they wouldn't succeed.
Draco isn't ready to take someone's life for me in the books.

They were so feeble attempts that I don't think to them as actual murder, the two people who were injured were actual accidents, he didn't want them to happen, and if both objects had arrived to Dumbldore I doubt they would have actually done him anything since he would have never opened an unknown package of drank from a random bottle before checking it. Draco is incapaple of actual murder in my opinion he had so many occasions to kill in HBP and DH but he never did. I am sure that when he made the two attempts in HBP he was sure they wouldn't succeed.
Draco isn't ready to take someone's life for me in the books.

Draco simply didn't care that others could potentially die from his murder attempts because if he did then he wouldn't have made the second attempt after he nearly killed Katie. The fact that he tried again proves Draco is capable of murder.

Draco simply didn't care that others could potentially die from his murder attempts because if he did then he wouldn't have made the second attempt after he nearly killed Katie. The fact that he tried again proves Draco is capable of murder.

Most people would be capable of murder in Draco's circumstances, in my opinion.

I am not denying that Draco went in with bad intentions. He was pompous, proud and bred to be a 'mudblood' hater. However, when it came down to the crunch I don't think he was capable of cold-blooded, calculated murder, unlike his father and other death eaters. Draco feared for the safety of his family. He didn't *want* to kill anybody by the time it came around to him needing to. He was scared and simply did what most humans would do in his situation - do what needed to be done for self-preservation and for the preservation of his family.

I believe that it is a very rare person in deed who will lay down and die for the 'greater good'. Most people have notions of bravery and valour, but when it comes down to the crunch very few people are capable of such selflessness.

Just to clarify, this is my opinion.

Make an effort to mark your opinions as such! You may start sentences with 'I think', 'I believe', 'In my opinion', etc. or introduce an 'as I see it'. It's really not that hard! Even if you are very convinced of your opinion, it is just that! Your opinion! If you cannot play by the rules, you'll be removed from this area, as it is a hot zone.

As for Draco being able of murder or not, Dumbledore says that he's not a killer, nd I'm inclined to believe Dumbledore. Yes he did try the thing with the necklace and the poison, but it's a different thing to move a package than to actually stand in front of someone and finish them off. For this, I doubt Draco had the ability.
Besides, in DH Bellatrix hints something similar, when she stuns the DE's at the Malfoys, she tells Draco to get them out in the yard and "to leave them there for her if he doesn't have the guts to finish them off"

That doesn't make Draco a nice guy, it simply makes him unable of cold blooded murder. :shrug:

All IMO of course :D

As for Draco being able of murder or not, Dumbledore says that he's not a killer, nd I'm inclined to believe Dumbledore. Yes he did try the thing with the necklace and the poison, but it's a different thing to move a package than to actually stand in front of someone and finish them off. For this, I doubt Draco had the ability.
Besides, in DH Bellatrix hints something similar, when she stuns the DE's at the Malfoys, she tells Draco to get them out in the yard and "to leave them there for her if he doesn't have the guts to finish them off"

That doesn't make Draco a nice guy, it simply makes him unable of cold blooded murder. :shrug:

All IMO of course :D

No, it just makes him the equivalent of someone who hires a hit-man but doesn't want to be present when the hit-man does his job IMO. Of course we have to remember why Dumbledore was telling Draco this, he was trying to talk Draco out of committing cold blooded murder and there's nothing like telling someone they're too good to do a dirty deed to make that someone not do it. IMO

Of course we have to remember why Dumbledore was telling Draco this, he was trying to talk Draco out of committing cold blooded murder and there's nothing like telling someone they're too good to do a dirty deed to make that someone not do it. IMO

Hm, I think the fact that he stood there and let Dumbledore talk him out of it says a lot. As Dumbledore rightly pointed out, he had no wand so Draco could have finished him at any stage. Harry also thinks he saw Draco drop his wand a bit just before the DEs came up, so I don't think Draco would have finished Dumbledore off.
I actually think Draco was a bit like Regulus, brought up thinking the Dark side was the right side to be on but then eventually realised it wasn't for him when it actually came down to doing something about it.

That Draco still could not kill Dumbledore, knowing what it meant to his family and even with Carrows and Greyback goading him on, shows imo that Dumbledore was correct in saying that Draco was no killer. Also, that even though Draco knew it was Harry at Malfoy Manor he didn't hand him over,which I think shows that he wasn't prepared to hand in Harry knowing he would be killed by Voldemort.

That Draco still could not kill Dumbledore, knowing what it meant to his family and even with Carrows and Greyback goading him on, shows imo that Dumbledore was correct in saying that Draco was no killer. Also, that even though Draco knew it was Harry at Malfoy Manor he didn't hand him over,which I think shows that he wasn't prepared to hand in Harry knowing he would be killed by Voldemort.

IMO Draco was too scared to kill Dumbledore face to face, I have strong doubts that if Draco had made it up to the tower with the Carrows and Greyback right behind him tt Dumbledore would still have been alive for Snape to kill, myself. I'm not impressed by Draco,s sudden discovery that his family was in danger. He never worried about them till he was face to face with Dumbledore and had to think up an acceptable reason why he had no choice but to try three times to murder him. He didn't deny that it was Harry at the Manor, he said he wasn't sure. Hardly taking a stand for the light, IMO

IMO Draco was too scared to kill Dumbledore face to face, I have strong doubts that if Draco had made it up to the tower with the Carrows and Greyback right behind him tt Dumbledore would still have been alive for Snape to kill, myself. I'm not impressed by Draco,s sudden discovery that his family was in danger. He never worried about them till he was face to face with Dumbledore and had to think up an acceptable reason why he had no choice but to try three times to murder him.

IMO Draco had every reason to be scared of not killing Dumbledore considering the consequences as he understood them. Those being that his own life and that of his parents was being threatened.


He didn't deny that it was Harry at the Manor, he said he wasn't sure. Hardly taking a stand for the light, IMO

Neither did he hand him over, even when being told by his father that it would help put his family back in Voldemort's good books. He refused to positively indentify Harry, as he knew they were all frightened to summon Voldemort unless they knew for certain they had Harry.

[QUOTE=TreacleTartlet;5878647]IMO Draco had every reason to be scared of not killing Dumbledore considering the consequences as he understood them. Those being that his own life and that of his parents was being threatened.

Funny how it only occurred to him when he had to come up with a 'legitimate' reason for committing murder. I would feel more inclined to believe this 'confession' of fear if he had not been crying about his own life when he thought he was alone, like in the bathroom.

Neither did he hand him over, even when being told by his father that it would help put his family back in Voldemort's good books. He refused to positively indentify Harry, as he knew they were all frightened to summon Voldemort unless they knew for certain they had Harry.

Like I said a somewhat less than shining example of standing up for the light, I call it a classic case of fence sitting myself.

Also, that even though Draco knew it was Harry at Malfoy Manor he didn't hand him over,which I think shows that he wasn't prepared to hand in Harry knowing he would be killed by Voldemort.
I do not see this so much as an active decision by Draco to protect Harry as much as it is a noncommittal decision to protect himself. I interpret Draco's actions in this scene as a young man who did not want to take responsibility. He did not want to be responsible for Harry's death and Voldemort's triumph, nor did he want to be responsible for any harm that may come to him or his family. As I see it, Draco is safeguarding himself in this scene, distancing him from decision-making in hopes that he will be left alone and disregarded. However, if the outcome was such that it benefited him, he would be able to capitalize on it. But he hesitated, refusing to take responsibility for either helping or hurting Harry (and either helping or hurting Voldemort, himself, or his parents).

In my opinion, Draco is a fascinating mixture of Slughorn, Regulus, and his own unique traits. Like Slughorn, I think Draco can talk a big game and glorify himself, but when it comes to action he prefers the backseat - more room to stretch out and indulge. Rather than face Harry one-on-one in the midnight duel in SS/PS, Draco put Harry's punishment in the hands of another - Filch. Thus, he gave Filch the steering wheel while he just awaited the result that he could capitalize on. I think there are multiple examples of Draco's self-glorification but lack of action in the series. And I think he approached the planned assassination in a similar way. He intended to talk a big game at the beginning, but in this circumstance there was no one onto whom he could relieve his responsibility. Rather than give the steering wheel to another, he had to do the deed himself; for one of the first times in his life, he had to be the sole actor to produce the results. I think his desperation and his emotions during the process are indicative of a lost boy, one who is out of his element when he realized he cannot do the deed himself - because he had so often passed his responsibilities and "big talk" onto someone else to actually carry out the action.

Simultaneously, his lack of action blended with indecision, in my view. When he was confronted with the task of performing a major action that could have severe repercussions, I think Draco questioned his own beliefs - only to realize that he did not know what he truly believed in. I see Draco as incredibly conflicted, but he ultimately realized that he was no supporter of Voldemort. I see him as a supporter of himself and those he cared about, and to accomplish his and his loved ones' maximal well-being, it was better for him to be on the fence. To be on the fence, he would not do anything that could be seen as extraordinarily for or against Voldemort (or for or against Dumbledore/the Order). He was two-faced, just as Ron says, in an effort to retain that "backseat" motto by which he (and Slughorn) seem to have based their lives.

Thus, I do agree that Draco is not a killer, at the least because he is not willing to put himself in a situation that could have severe repercussions. However, I also agree with those that say Draco was, morally, not a direct killer. He would not have killed Dumbledore, in my opinion, and he seemed genuinely against the prospect of face-to-face murder. He was forced into a situation where his and his parents' lives were in jeopardy if he did not succeed in murdering Dumbledore. With that sort of blackmail, I do not think Draco's attempts at killing Dumbledore (the necklace or the wine) can be an accurate judge of Draco's morals.

Is Draco as morally sound as Harry, or others like Ron and Hermione? Of course not, in my opinion. I doubt that Harry - blackmail or not - would ever attempt murder that was unprovoked. Draco, on the other hand, at least tried - however feebly - to kill Dumbledore. So that does, to me, show that Draco is capable of murder, but only under extraordinary circumstances. But they were such feeble attempts and, as Dumbledore says, his heart did not seem to be invested in the attempts. To me, that shows that he did not want to commit murder, and my logic is that Draco's morals clashed with that idea but, possibly more prominently, Draco's own sense of self-survival (and his "on the fence" and "backseat" attitude) disallowed him to commit such a drastic crime.

I do not see this so much as an active decision by Draco to protect Harry as much as it is a noncommittal decision to protect himself. I interpret Draco's actions in this scene as a young man who did not want to take responsibility. He did not want to be responsible for Harry's death and Voldemort's triumph, nor did he want to be responsible for any harm that may come to him or his family. As I see it, Draco is safeguarding himself in this scene, distancing him from decision-making in hopes that he will be left alone and disregarded. However, if the outcome was such that it benefited him, he would be able to capitalize on it. But he hesitated, refusing to take responsibility for either helping or hurting Harry (and either helping or hurting Voldemort, himself, or his parents).

In my opinion, Draco is a fascinating mixture of Slughorn, Regulus, and his own unique traits. Like Slughorn, I think Draco can talk a big game and glorify himself, but when it comes to action he prefers the backseat - more room to stretch out and indulge. Rather than face Harry one-on-one in the midnight duel in SS/PS, Draco put Harry's punishment in the hands of another - Filch. Thus, he gave Filch the steering wheel while he just awaited the result that he could capitalize on. I think there are multiple examples of Draco's self-glorification but lack of action in the series. And I think he approached the planned assassination in a similar way. He intended to talk a big game at the beginning, but in this circumstance there was no one onto whom he could relieve his responsibility. Rather than give the steering wheel to another, he had to do the deed himself; for one of the first times in his life, he had to be the sole actor to produce the results. I think his desperation and his emotions during the process are indicative of a lost boy, one who is out of his element when he realized he cannot do the deed himself - because he had so often passed his responsibilities and "big talk" onto someone else to actually carry out the action.

Simultaneously, his lack of action blended with indecision, in my view. When he was confronted with the task of performing a major action that could have severe repercussions, I think Draco questioned his own beliefs - only to realize that he did not know what he truly believed in. I see Draco as incredibly conflicted, but he ultimately realized that he was no supporter of Voldemort. I see him as a supporter of himself and those he cared about, and to accomplish his and his loved ones' maximal well-being, it was better for him to be on the fence. To be on the fence, he would not do anything that could be seen as extraordinarily for or against Voldemort (or for or against Dumbledore/the Order). He was two-faced, just as Ron says, in an effort to retain that "backseat" motto by which he (and Slughorn) seem to have based their lives.

Thus, I do agree that Draco is not a killer, at the least because he is not willing to put himself in a situation that could have severe repercussions. However, I also agree with those that say Draco was, morally, not a direct killer. He would not have killed Dumbledore, in my opinion, and he seemed genuinely against the prospect of face-to-face murder. He was forced into a situation where his and his parents' lives were in jeopardy if he did not succeed in murdering Dumbledore. With that sort of blackmail, I do not think Draco's attempts at killing Dumbledore (the necklace or the wine) can be an accurate judge of Draco's morals.

Is Draco as morally sound as Harry, or others like Ron and Hermione? Of course not, in my opinion. I doubt that Harry - blackmail or not - would ever attempt murder that was unprovoked. Draco, on the other hand, at least tried - however feebly - to kill Dumbledore. So that does, to me, show that Draco is capable of murder, but only under extraordinary circumstances. But they were such feeble attempts and, as Dumbledore says, his heart did not seem to be invested in the attempts. To me, that shows that he did not want to commit murder, and my logic is that Draco's morals clashed with that idea but, possibly more prominently, Draco's own sense of self-survival (and his "on the fence" and "backseat" attitude) disallowed him to commit such a drastic crime.

Like I said, a said a classic fence sitter. I would have a heck of a lot more respect for him if he had ever decided to support something.

Like I said, a said a classic fence sitter. I would have a heck of a lot more respect for him if he had ever decided to support something.
Oh, I certainly think he supported something: himself. :lol:
(And when I say "himself," I think that includes his personal well-being and the health/safety of those he cared about [which, in my mind, is part of oneself].)

As I see it, Draco was a "classic fence sitter," ready to lean to one side of the fence if it suited him, but never fall off the fence and be fully on one side. I think in HBP we see him when he did fall off the fence, and he landed on the Dark side; he was over his head, uncomfortable, and scared. And, to me, he made every effort in DH to get back to the middle ground where he could play his two-faced game again.

Does anyone elsethink it sounds weird for anyone but his dad to call him Draco...I just get so used to people calling him Malfoy! :D

Yeah, it's always a bit weird at first. :lol: But keep in mind that the story is from Harry's perspective, and he's not really on a first-name basis with Draco. ;) He'll often call him "Malfoy," even if, off-page, Draco's friends are calling him "Draco."

Its interesting that in DH, Harry starts thinking of him as not "Malfoy" but Draco. I think thats an indicator on how Harry's opinion of Draco is changing slightly. He still doesnt like him or anything, but thinks of him as Draco instead of just Malfoy.

Its interesting that in DH, Harry starts thinking of him as not "Malfoy" but Draco. I think thats an indicator on how Harry's opinion of Draco is changing slightly. He still doesnt like him or anything, but thinks of him as Draco instead of just Malfoy.

Or perhaps he thinks of him as "Draco" simply because he knew Lucius was also a Death Eater and referring to them both as just "Malfoy" is a bit confusing.

Its interesting that in DH, Harry starts thinking of him as not "Malfoy" but Draco. I think thats an indicator on how Harry's opinion of Draco is changing slightly. He still doesnt like him or anything, but thinks of him as Draco instead of just Malfoy.
I also found this interesting, but I can't actually find much evidence of it. I've been looking through some HBP and DH chapters, and there are frequent references to him just as "Malfoy." The episode at Malfoy Manner does seem to resort to calling him "Draco," but as GingerCat1 pointed out, this may be because there are two other Malfoys present.

I also found this interesting, but I can't actually find much evidence of it. I've been looking through some HBP and DH chapters, and there are frequent references to him just as "Malfoy." The episode at Malfoy Manner does seem to resort to calling him "Draco," but as GingerCat1 pointed out, this may be because there are two other Malfoys present.

Perhaps. I could have sworn he refers to him as Draco after the RoR scene in DH though. He does once or twice in the narrative in "The Elder Wand". But it seems like the narrative refers to him as Draco Malfoy a bit more instead of just Malfoy even when Lucius isnt present. Curious that. Maybe im reading too much into it though.

I'd like you to move on from this point now, as it's meandering away from Draco and onto Harry a bit too much.

I love Draco Malfoy as a character. He is conflicted and does not really fall into any category. What the push comes to shove, who will you choose? - family or your conscience? But I think he was a better man than his father and his son will be a better man than him... at least a more tolerant one...

I love Draco Malfoy as a character. He is conflicted and does not really fall into any category. What the push comes to shove, who will you choose? - family or your conscience? But I think he was a better man than his father and his son will be a better man than him... at least a more tolerant one...

I do think that Draco is a better person than Lucius, but still not a nice guy. IMO the main difference is that Lucius really believed in the DE stuff for most of his adult life, and that he most likely was capable of killing and surely capable of torturing muggles (at the Quidditch world cup). Draco on the other hand seems more the show - off who likes to talk but who in the end isn't really able to go through with the truly evil stuff.

As for Scorpius, we can only hope that he'll grow in a more tolerant society, mostly due to the changes in the Ministry politics under Minister Kingsley. But I can't see Draco being particulary happy if, for example, Scorpius ended up marrying a Muggle. Draco is and probably always will be a pure blood elitist.

I do think that Draco is a better person than Lucius, but still not a nice guy. IMO the main difference is that Lucius really believed in the DE stuff for most of his adult life, and that he most likely was capable of killing and surely capable of torturing muggles (at the Quidditch world cup). Draco on the other hand seems more the show - off who likes to talk but who in the end isn't really able to go through with the truly evil stuff.

As for Scorpius, we can only hope that he'll grow in a more tolerant society, mostly due to the changes in the Ministry politics under Minister Kingsley. But I can't see Draco being particulary happy if, for example, Scorpius ended up marrying a Muggle. Draco is and probably always will be a pure blood elitist.

Agreed. Old ingrained values (however wrong they are) don't die too easily. But while he will always be sickened by Voldemort and what Voldemort did to keep power, he will never sing kumbaya and become a champion for muggle borns... :lol: he might however learn to not openly stamp about his beliefs and maybe his son has a better chance than his father to make his own mind up about things...

Draco may still keep the old bias. In fact, im sure he did. But i do believe its possible he's far more tolerant or just keeps these opinions to himself after the war. Scorpius may have the same ideas as Draco but he may have been taught by his father just to not say anything.

Draco may still keep the old bias. In fact, im sure he did. But i do believe its possible he's far more tolerant or just keeps these opinions to himself after the war. Scorpius may have the same ideas as Draco but he may have been taught by his father just to not say anything.

What part of Canon gave this impression?

What part of Canon gave this impression?

We don't have canon to say anything about Scorpius at all, except that he looks like Draco and is in the same year than Albus and Rose. Everything else is speculation. I personally think there's nothing wrong with speculation.

JKR says somewhere that Draco and Harry never get to be big buddies, but that over the years grew a sort of mutual reluctant respect and "live and let live" thingy. That, and the fact that the new Ministry is totally anti voldy ideas, makes me speculate that Draco probably doesn't press radical DE ideas on his son (or at least not openly), though yes a certain sense of superiority, because that's what he is.

Also we have no idea on the ideology of Draco's wife and her way of educating her son.

Fanfiction of course leads to loads of speculation and ships, the foundation of it already in the (IMO horrible epilogue) where Ron says something like "Rose, don't get too friendly with Scorpius, etc" and poof, we have the Scorpius/Rose shippers.

We don't have canon to say anything about Scorpius at all, except that he looks like Draco and is in the same year than Albus and Rose. Everything else is speculation. I personally think there's nothing wrong with speculation.

JKR says somewhere that Draco and Harry never get to be big buddies, but that over the years grew a sort of mutual reluctant respect and "live and let live" thingy. That, and the fact that the new Ministry is totally anti voldy ideas, makes me speculate that Draco probably doesn't press radical DE ideas on his son (or at least not openly), though yes a certain sense of superiority, because that's what he is.

Also we have no idea on the ideology of Draco's wife and her way of educating her son.

Fanfiction of course leads to loads of speculation and ships, the foundation of it already in the (IMO horrible epilogue) where Ron says something like "Rose, don't get too friendly with Scorpius, etc" and poof, we have the Scorpius/Rose shippers.

Very true, but I'm afraid that I prefer to keep my speculation in line with Canon. I think fan fiction can be fun, but that's all it is, just one person's fun (sometimes) speculation in a story format, but should never be used as something that ever relates to Canon. Because Fan Fiction is not and never can be Canon. I kinda like the Epilogue. I agree with Stephen King's assesment.

As this is the thread for discussion of Draco's character I like to stick with what we get of Draco's character. I didn't read anything about an improvement in Draco's character and I read absolutely nothing as to what kind of boy Scorpius was, so I asked where the poster got the impressions of their characters from. I couldn't get any kind of flavor of character traits from the Canon so I was curious where this poster got their impressions from. Perhaps I don't read deep enough, but I just didnt get any sense of improvement from Draco's 'curt' nod and I sure didn't get any kind of sense of personality from Scorpius.

Perhaps I don't read deep enough, but I just didnt get any sense of improvement from Draco's 'curt' nod and I sure didn't get any kind of sense of personality from Scorpius.

But others do. And that's what is called interpretation of canon and we encourage it. :)

I didn't read anything about an improvement in Draco's character and I read absolutely nothing as to what kind of boy Scorpius was, so I asked where the poster got the impressions of their characters from. I couldn't get any kind of flavor of character traits from the Canon so I was curious where this poster got their impressions from. Perhaps I don't read deep enough, but I just didnt get any sense of improvement from Draco's 'curt' nod and I sure didn't get any kind of sense of personality from Scorpius.

Throughout the series, whenever Draco and the trio would cross paths, it always involved angry sparks. As proof, here's an excerpt from book 6 chap 7:

Harry sat up straight, interested. It was not like Malfoy to pass up the chance to demonstrate his power as prefect, which he had happily abused all the previous year.

"What did he do when he saw you?"

"The usual," said Ron indifferently, demonstrating a rude hand gesture. "Not like him, though it it? Well--that is"--he did the hand gesture again--"but why isn't he out there bullying first years?"

So yes, Draco's curt nod was a significant improvement from his usual sneering nature and its because of all that happened in book 7 that cured Draco's animosity.

Throughout the series, whenever Draco and the trio would cross paths, it always involved angry sparks. As proof, here's an excerpt from book 6 chap 7:



So yes, Draco's curt nod was a significant improvement from his usual sneering nature and its because of all that happened in book 7 that cured Draco's animosity.

Wasn't Harry a well respected Auror and in a position of power in the WW at that time? Also I think that both he and Harry were in their 30's. Of course he wasn't going to act like a spoilt schoolboy on the train platform. That didn't stop him IMO, from being as rude as he could get away with.

That didn't stop him IMO, from being as rude as he could get away with.
Well, in the same way that we don't have canon for Post Voldywar Draco being a fluffy bunny, we don't have canon for him being rude. I personally would take JKR's word as a possible interpretation

After Book 7, Draco Malfoy goes back to “being an improved version of what he was but we shouldn’t expect him to be a really great guy any time soon.”
Draco has been sobered by his misfortune, and his son Scorpius is a much better person.
Draco and Harry never became friends, but they did come to understand and appreciate each other better.
source (http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/list2007.html)

Anyway, I'm coming across as a huge Draco defender :lol: He definitely has his bad sides, for once his racism, the way he bullies Neville (book 1-4, allthough personally I think a 12 year old bullying another 12 year old, while being despicable, is not nearly as bad as a 38 year old bullying the same 12 year old if you get my meaning ;) ), he's an arrogant and spoiled kid who makes a lot of bad decisions. Oh and of course the way he most likely mistreated Dobby.

But I can't see him as a villain.

=guad;5882206]Well, in the same way that we don't have canon for Post Voldywar Draco being a fluffy bunny, we don't have canon for him being rude. I personally would take JKR's word as a possible interpretation

I think I've said before that I don't really consider Rowling's quotes as Canon. Now I'm saying this as someone who has used Rowling's quotes in the past as a kind of backup, but...I can't find it in myself to do that anymore. If Rowling made a quote that kind of backed up an argument I had and I used that, but she has made lots of quotes and some of them are kinda contradictory, so some quotes I just ignored. I can't with a clear conscience do this anymore so I prefer to steer clear of her quotes except as an opinion given by someone else. I try and stick to the books, the 7 novels, the 2 complimentary books, her short story about James and Sirius and the Tales of Beedle the Bard. This is her official Canon and the sources I prefer to stick to this. Now getting back to Draco, I think he is rude on the platform, I think the wording was carefully chosen by Rowling and I think Rowling had a clear understanding of what she chose to write and the words she chose to convey her meaning. She chose the say that Draco gave a 'curt nod'. It wasn't a 'polite nod' or a 'civil nod' or a ''nod and a smile'. So I think the meaning is very clear, IMO Draco is being as rude as he can be and not get censured by the WW at large.

Anyway, I'm coming across as a huge Draco defender :lol: He definitely has his bad sides, for once his racism, the way he bullies Neville (book 1-4, allthough personally I think a 12 year old bullying another 12 year old, while being despicable, is not nearly as bad as a 38 year old bullying the same 12 year old if you get my meaning ;) ), he's an arrogant and spoiled kid who makes a lot of bad decisions. Oh and of course the way he most likely mistreated Dobby.

But I can't see him as a villain.

I don't see him as a villain either, IMO Draco isn't strong enough to be a villain. He kind of reminds of Grima Wormtongue in LOTR. A tool that was used by someone stronger and who couldn't find the strength to stand on his own two feet but was quite willing to use that someone's support to try and get what he wanted. He was a weak oppurtunist who couldn't kill face-to-face, but was quite willing to try from a safe distance. I think he had feelings for his family, especially when he couldn't think of another excuse for his actions.

We aren't going to have this discussion about the interpretation of the word curt again, are we? Because we know it doesn't end well.

Hey, I've never been in a curt discussion! :p Funspoil ;)


I think I've said before that I don't really consider Rowling's quotes as Canon.

I don't see him as a villain either, IMO Draco isn't strong enough to be a villain. He kind of reminds of Grima Wormtongue in LOTR. A tool that was used by someone stronger and who couldn't find the strength to stand on his own two feet but was quite willing to use that someone's support to try and get what he wanted. He was a weak oppurtunist who couldn't kill face-to-face, but was quite willing to try from a safe distance. I think he had feelings for his family, especially when he couldn't think of another excuse for his actions.

Frankly, I think JKR's quotes can be a guide to interpretation when canon doesn't give enough information. And in this case, JKR's opinion pretty much reflects my own (Draco not being a nice guy, but not being totally evil neither more or less), so I'm fine with it. :)

Anyway, I guess that based on solely the epilogue, we can't really make any conclusions about Draco's character at all, except that he acknowledges Harry and Ron, he has a son who looks like himself and he probably spends his time at home experimenting to create a good hair regrowing potion :lol:

=guad;5882944]Hey, I've never been in a curt discussion! :p Funspoil ;)

I have, I'm usually the one being curt.

Frankly, I think JKR's quotes can be a guide to interpretation when canon doesn't give enough information. And in this case, JKR's opinion pretty much reflects my own (Draco not being a nice guy, but not being totally evil neither more or less), so I'm fine with it. :)

Well I'm not going to say your wrong. When Pottermore opens up in October maybe we will eventually get more information, but up till then I preferr to stick to what Canon says.

Anyway, I guess that based on solely the epilogue, we can't really make any conclusions about Draco's character at all, except that he acknowledges Harry and Ron, he has a son who looks like himself and he probably spends his time at home experimenting to create a good hair regrowing potion :lol

That is balm for my cold hard heart. Draco's karma bit him hard on the hairline.

I have, I'm usually the one being curt.
Like Draco? :evil:



Well I'm not going to say your wrong. When Pottermore opens up in October maybe we will eventually get more information, but up till then I preferr to stick to what Canon says.
Hmm I'm in pottermore, won't spoil you if you don't want to but in case you don't mind

there is no new information about Draco for now


That is balm for my cold hard heart. Draco's karma bit him hard on the hairline.
Aww, and what about poor Mr Weasley? :p

In any case, Draco has an interesting development from HBP on. At the least, the final scene between him and Dumbledore as well as the Moaning Myrtle scene adds a bit more to the stereotypical nasty dude he had been in the previous books. :)

(won't deny that it's much nicer discussing and disagreeing about Draco than about the infamous potionsmaster ;) )

Hmm I'm in pottermore, won't spoil you if you don't want to but in case you don't mind

there is no new information about Draco for now


Actually that is not true as

in Pottermore JKR goes into detail about wand types including the length of wands, wood types and cores. This information actually gives us a good insight into Draco's personality (especially wood types)

Actually that is not true as

in Pottermore JKR goes into detail about wand types including the length of wands, wood types and cores. This information actually gives us a good insight into Draco's personality (especially wood types)

More than what we read about him in the books?

Actually that is not true as

in Pottermore JKR goes into detail about wand types including the length of wands, wood types and cores. This information actually gives us a good insight into Draco's personality (especially wood types)

Hm I guess that's relative because in the end the choices one makes are more relevant than the wand that choses you, but yeah, it could be interesting. In any case, remind me, what was Draco's wand and what does Pottermore say about it? :)

And again: We're not discussing Pottermore information until it's accessible for everyone. It's simply not fair to put it out here now because it gives people the choice between spoiling themselves or missing half the discussion.

In a way, I used to think of Draco as I do Snape. Very misunderstood. But the more I re read the books, I can see how Draco was really had a nasty, sometimes quite cruel personality. They seemed to have softened him in the movies. I stand by not thinking he was evil, and that he may have been very much influenced by how he was raised. I wonder if he became a better person as an adult? (no spoilers please) Snape is a different story, imo, but I'll debate that in his thread. :argh:
J.K Rowling seemed to really play on the nature vs. nuture philsophy in her characters. Tom Riddle was brought up in an orphanage (which he hated) and he became evil. Draco was brought up by predjudiced parents, which rubbed off on him. Snape was mistreated by Harry's dad and his gang, so he mistreated Harry and his gang. Dudley was spoiled, so he acted so. The only person seemingly unaffected by this was Harry, who was mistreated by his Aunt and Uncle but was still capable of loyalty and love.

In a way, I used to think of Draco as I do Snape. Very misunderstood. But the more I re read the books, I can see how Draco was really had a nasty, sometimes quite cruel personality. They seemed to have softened him in the movies. I stand by not thinking he was evil, and that he may have been very much influenced by how he was raised. I wonder if he became a better person as an adult? (no spoilers please) Snape is a different story, imo, but I'll debate that in his thread. :argh:
J.K Rowling seemed to really play on the nature vs. nuture philsophy in her characters. Tom Riddle was brought up in an orphanage (which he hated) and he became evil. Draco was brought up by predjudiced parents, which rubbed off on him. Snape was mistreated by Harry's dad and his gang, so he mistreated Harry and his gang. Dudley was spoiled, so he acted so. The only person seemingly unaffected by this was Harry, who was mistreated by his Aunt and Uncle but was still capable of loyalty and love.

I always thought that it was implied that Voldemort was evil by nature, being an odd child since he was a baby. But well, that's off topic anyway. .)

I more see similarities between Draco's upbringing and Regulus' upbringing, both families share the same pure blood mentality, both were probably spoiled, Draco being the spoiled only child and Regulus being quite the little Slytherin Black hero for his parents. And both join the DE's at age 16.

Of course, there is the huge difference that Regulus in the end chose to fight the Dark Lord and sacrifice his own life for it and for his houseelf, while Draco constantly tries to save his neck somehow. One might debate that Draco also chose to lower his wand and to not reveal Harry's identity, but still, it's not the same.

Of course, there is the huge difference that Regulus in the end chose to fight the Dark Lord and sacrifice his own life for it and for his houseelf, while Draco constantly tries to save his neck somehow.

While this is true, Draco never had anyone to fight for. His parents were on Voldemort's side, his friends were, and he didn't seem to have any house-elves cared about or any besides Dobby period. (That Regulus was able to realize the worth of a house-elf is somewhere else where they differed.)

The closest we get is Draco trying to help a Stunned!Goyle in the RoR and while I do think that took courage, as it was his friend, I'd say that was more physical courage than anything. Regulus' action took both physical courage (putting his health and life on the line) and moral (realizing what Voldemort was doing was wrong and trying to put a stop to it). I think it's telling that JKR specified it was moral cowardice that was Draco's big failing.

I'm not sure if I should post this in the Pottermore thread or the Pure Blood thread but I thought it could fit here and its interesting too:
Draco married Astoria Greengrass and according to Pottermore under the "New from J.K Rowling" information titled Pureblood, it had a list of 28 supposed Pureblood families. The Greengrass's were on the list! I thought this was interesting because I knew there was a debate over the status of Astoria's blood purity (if she was half blood or pureblood?). I was pretty curious about it too so I'm glad that's cleared up. I kind of figured Draco might marry a pure blood!

It was mentioned in the Epilogue by Ron that Scorpius was a Pureblood Wizard, so Astoria had to have been one as well.

It was mentioned in the Epilogue by Ron that Scorpius was a Pureblood Wizard, so Astoria had to have been one as well.

Oops, I didn't catch that! Thanks lol :)

Just to play devil's advocate some more...


The Abbotts, Weasleys, and Princes show up on that list but Hannah, Rose, and Snape aren't pure-bloods so inclusion on that list isn't a sign of purity. After all, the Malfoys are on there and yet we know that they also married many Muggles before the Statute and continued marrying half-bloods after.

As for Scorpius, is there a term for the child of a pure-blood and a half-blood? I doubt Asteria had a Muggle/Muggle-born parent (grandparent, however, I'd be surprised as most purebloods aren't so pure) but I've just wondered. Would Harry and Ginny's be pure-bloods? They're definitely not half-bloods and three-quarter-bloods isn't a term.

There's no middle ground apparently. You're a half blood even if you had 1 Muggle Grandparent. It's only if both sets of Grandparents are magical that you are considered Pureblood, even if the great-grandparents weren't magical.

Kind of silly, if you ask me.

1. When we first meet Draco, Harry sees him as a pampered, snobbish, bully. Did JKR plant the seeds from the beginning that he would grow to be a Death Eater?

Not really. I don't think many of the Death Eaters were of Draco's position, like Snape, and even the lead DE, Voldemort.

2. Draco grew up in a home with a mother from the notorious House of Black and a father who was a Death Eater that held favor with Voldemort. Lucius craves wealth, status and power. He is a demanding father and expects nothing less than excellence from his son.

At least he expects his son to do better in school than a Mudblood, "I would have thought you'd be ashamed that a girl of no wizard family beat you in every exam." [CoS, p. 59]

3. Is Draco truly making his choices of his own volition? How much of his choice is derived from fear, or is it bravado?

I think his choices are basically his except when he is forced to kill Dumbledore or his family will be harmed. For the most part he has shown bravado in front of Harry who seems to have him bested in flying and in dueling.

4. Draco has used name-dropping (his father’s and Voldemort’s) and his wealth in an attempt to befriend people. He was truly dumbfounded when all Harry could muster was a “that don’t impress me much” reaction to his attempts.

Someone in his position does tout their connections. However, it is funny that Harry seems to have a richer family history in the wizarding world than Draco. Like Voldemort, Harry was the last descendant of the Peverell brothers who invented the Deathly Hallows. Draco was related to the Blacks and I assume somewhere along the line Harry was too.

5. Is he misunderstood? Or just plain mean?

I think he's mean. He did try to use the Cruciatus Curse on Harry when Harry defeated him in a duel. Any chance he got he tried to make fun of Harry and laughed at him in public.

6. Despite his decision not to kill Dumbledore, Draco continues to serve Voldemort. Do you think he regrets his failure to kill Dumbledore? Do you think he regrets his choices in DH?

He was probably relieved. I think Dumbledore thought if Draco went on with it it could have lead him down a path that was evil. I think he probably regretted his parents position with Voldemort when they were humiliated.

7. How do you think Draco's life debt to Harry and Ron might manifest itself in their future.

I'm not sure. It can probably come in handy but I don't think they would have need of it. Harry I think is probably a great wizard as an adult.

8. What do you think happened to Draco after DH? What might he have done as a profession? Is Pansy the wife we see in the epilogue?

I don't think she's his wife but his wife is apparently a pure-blood witch. Draco was probably similar to his father. He was like on some school board, gave money out to influence decisions in the Ministry.

Since this was apparently dragging down the "What If?" thread, I'll pick it up here.

Some folks were debating whether or not Draco had the Dark Mark.

Personally, I'm not sure whether this makes much difference. Does it really matter that he had the mark? Does it matter if he was an official Death Eater or not? He still committed acts in their name and obeyed their master. So how is him having the Mark such a pressing matter?

I'd agree it does not matter much one way or another, though I suppose I am curious as to the reasons people give for thinking he did or didn't. Other characters who did include Regulus Black and Severus Snape, after all! ;)

Personally I think he did have a Dark Mark. I think Voldemort would have wanted him to, as part of his HBP plans to get Dumbledore and punish Lucius. And at the start of HBP, I think Draco would have seen it as an honor.

Since this was apparently dragging down the "What If?" thread, I'll pick it up here.

Some folks were debating whether or not Draco had the Dark Mark.

Personally, I'm not sure whether this makes much difference. Does it really matter that he had the mark? Does it matter if he was an official Death Eater or not? He still committed acts in their name and obeyed their master. So how is him having the Mark such a pressing matter?

Based on the conversation with Dumbledore on the Astronomy Tower, it seems to me that Draco "committed acts" and "obeyed their master" for the sake of not getting his family killed, not so much out of unswerving loyalty to Voldemort.

It is possible that Draco had a Dark Mark, and he may even have been excited about it for a couple of months, but he was hardly cut out for being a committed Death Eater.

Draco was, I think, a complete failure as a Dark Wizard, squeamish even over being ordered to torture the prisoners... not to mention useless when asked to identify Harry (intentionally useless, IMO).

But then, what else should one expect from a kid who was chosen by a unicorn-hair wand? ;)

But then, what else should one expect from a kid who was chosen by a unicorn-hair wand?

o0o0o! That's a pretty low blow! :lol:

They way I see it, Voldemort wanted to punish Lucius and was using Draco to do it. He never thought Draco could kill Dumbledore, but either way, Voldemort had nothing to lose and something to gain: he'd either get to punish Lucius or DD would be dead. I don't think Voldy respected Draco any more than he did Lucius, and had no intentions of making Draco a DE. And the reward for Draco for killing DD was that he and him family got to continue being alive.

But in the end, i suppose it doesn't matter. If Draco had the mark or didn't, nothing would have changed or been done differently, as far as I can tell.

I agree, it doesn't really matter and I actually like that we're not given definite resolutions to everything, it makes talking about the books a lot more interesting.

Maybe it wasn't a real dark mark. Maybe it was the magical equivalent of a fake tatoo (just to scare people with lol )

Ha!

I did wonder about tattoos in the wizarding world; like the guys who get 1950s pin ups tattooed on their biceps; in the wizarding world those tattoos would wink and flirt back at them...

o0o0o! That's a pretty low blow! :lol:

:lol: Actually, I'm a unicorn user myself.

What I meant, really, was that unicorn is not suited to Dark Magic. I think it follows that the properly paired owner of a unicorn wand will not be naturally suited to Dark Magic either.

I find Draco's wand fascinating. Hawthorn indicates a conflicted nature. Also, the combination of hawthorn and unicorn allows for a bit more conflict because hawthorn can cast powerful curses (though it is also good for healing), yet curses are pretty much contrary to the nature of the unicorn core.

I think Draco's wand describes him well - conflicted, complex, drawn by his family toward Dark Magic but not inherently a practitioner of it... and ultimately someone who has no stomach for it.

He wanted to be Dark. He tried to be Dark. But ultimately, he just wasn't cut out for the Dark Side.

Based on the conversation with Dumbledore on the Astronomy Tower, it seems to me that Draco "committed acts" and "obeyed their master" for the sake of not getting his family killed, not so much out of unswerving loyalty to Voldemort.

I think Draco would have had that kind of loyalty to Voldemort had he not landed so deeply in Voldemort's bad books. If the Malfoys had still been important DEs -"valued" inasmuch as any DE is "valued" by Voldemort, I think Draco would have been dedicated to the cause. IMO, it was a shock to Draco's system to realise that he, "superior" pureblood Draco Malfoy, meant just as little to Voldemort as the "mudbloods" he wanted dead.

It is possible that Draco had a Dark Mark, and he may even have been excited about it for a couple of months, but he was hardly cut out for being a committed Death Eater.

Draco was, I think, a complete failure as a Dark Wizard, squeamish even over being ordered to torture the prisoners... not to mention useless when asked to identify Harry (intentionally useless, IMO).

Squeamishness is not the same as having a conscience. Draco didn't like to see gore and death in front of his own eyes. IMO, he would have had no problem with hurting others for personal gain, as long as he could do it from a distance.


I think Draco's wand describes him well - conflicted, complex, drawn by his family toward Dark Magic but not inherently a practitioner of it... and ultimately someone who has no stomach for it.

He wanted to be Dark. He tried to be Dark. But ultimately, he just wasn't cut out for the Dark Side.

I think Draco was just fine with causing suffering as long as he did not have to witness it first-hand. As long as he did not have to look someone in the eye as he killed them. He didn't show any qualms about what he did to Katie and to Ron. I think this fits with Draco's character - he's like the guy who's fine with trying to poison someone (as Draco did), or paying someone else to commit murder - he doesn't want to watch his victim die, he just wants them dead.

I agree... in theory. If Draco died as a result of the sectumsempra curse I absolutely agree that Snape would be 100% on the hook for killing Dumbledore. The only sticking point I have is your use of the word "immediately." I don't see a timeline having been put on the vow Snape took and so long as after Draco's death Snape began making efforts toward fulfilling clause 3 of his vow I think he'd be okay.

For instance, I don't think that Snape would have been required by his vow to stand up from Draco's dead body, walk into Dumbledore's office and blast him with AK. I do think, though, that Snape would have had to begin, I don't know, formulating an plan he was going to carry out that would kill Dumbledore, or begin brewing the potion he was going to poison Dumbledore with or something; he had to be really, truly, honestly putting effort in to working toward the goal of killing Dumbledore in order to avoid being killed by his vow (and I think a property of the unbreakable vow might have been to "know" if Snape wasn't making an effort, though another potential question would be whether Snape would get some kind of warning saying that his death was imminent because the vow felt he wasn't really trying... :huh:). What I don't know, however, is whether Snape "waiting for the right moment" to blast Dumbledore would qualify as working toward acheive the goal of clause 3 or whether having had this prearrange assisted suicide thing would qualify as his plan to kill Dumbledore. :hmm:

I think it's completely logical and possible that the curse would work as you described above. The UV might consider intent and so "immediately" going after DD would not be required.

But then again, it might. We don't know and so all of this is just fun speculation. What prompted me to say immediately (besides adding significantly to the drama of an alternate story) is the phrase, in clause 3: "if it seems Draco will fail". The UV is expecting Snape to take over if it appears Draco will fail. We see that in the canon story on the Astronomy tower - Draco is simply hesitating and Snape assesses that he will fail, but he technically hasn't failed when Snape takes over.

However, in the "what if Draco died of Sectumsempra" scenario, Draco has failed utterly, totally and completely. I'm thinking the curse would then begin to behave with the same kind of finality and Snape would have to act, and act quickly, to avoid the consequences of the vow he made with Narcissa (note the use of her full name - lol!). In my opinion, of course.

So JKR goes on to say (after "how else would you become a Death Eater) that Draco is now "playing with the big boys" and "he's asked to walk it for the first time." To me, this indicates that he shut down emotion - a prerequisite for being a Death Eater (Snape was the only Death Eater who could produce a Patronus) - and became a Death Eater. As JKR said, Draco is no longer just talking the talk - he's living it. After she specifically mentions how Draco "would become a Death Eater," she then goes on to say that he's playing with the big boys, etc. And although this could mean that he's just doing a job for Voldemort without being branded (and I understand your uncertainty), the combination of her statement about becoming a Death Eater and how Draco's course continued is much more conclusive (especially with the evidence HRW provided) that Draco was a Death Eater.

JKR's quote does lean significantly toward the possibility of Draco having become a DE and receiving the Dark Mark - she does that in HBP as well. However, it still isn't to my mind, unfortunately, definitive. And this is what JKR does so very often that I've become quite suspicious about what she says. She is very slippery about what and how she explains things and experience has taught me to examine very carefully what she does not say. She does not say "Draco has a Death Eater Dark Mark on his forearm."

We know from the book that Draco wanted to become a DE, but I suspect that Voldemort would not just give that "honor" away to a young, unproven wannabe. If everyone else in his organization has to earn the right to bear the mark, to just up and accept Draco into his inner circle could cause unwanted discontent among his cronies (Goddess Clio does a better job explaining this). I think Draco was trying to earn his Dark Mark by accepting the assignment to kill Dumbledore - which would fulfill every item in JKR's comment pointed out - and if that was the case, he was not yet a DE.

The only thing contrary to that conclusion is, I think, the null of that evidence. Do you find anything specifically in the books or interviews that directly contradicts the evidence that Draco became a Death Eater?

Not really. The incident that keeps me suspect is that JKR could have resolved the question with the barrier at the Astronomy Tower stairwell. She has Harry tell us that to get through the barrier one would have needed a Dark Mark. But then she sets up the situation so that Draco doesn't need one to access the tower. No where does she leave us indisputable proof.

For what it's worth:
Lona: Did draco and harry lose their animosity towards eachother when voldemort died?
J.K. Rowling: Not really. There would be a kind of rapprochement, in that Harry knows Draco hated being a Death Eater, and would not have killed Dumbledore; similarly, Draco would feel a grudging gratitude towards Harry for saving his life.
J.K. Rowling: Real friendship would be out of the question, though. Too much had happened prior to the final battle.I think when it comes to any book, there's the story that the author meant to tell, and then there's the story that they actually wrote (canon). As far as the written word goes, there doesn't seem to be any clear evidence that Draco was a Death Eater, but on the other hand, the words on-page don't exist unless they're born out of a clear conception of the character by the author. Personally, I do give the interviews & Pottermore info some credence, but I also like the parts where canon is vague, as it leaves more room for the imagination.

Okay, this is more along the lines of what I would accept, provided the interview was transcribed correctly. Why didn't she just give us that info on Pottermore?

Maybe it wasn't a real dark mark. :hmm: Maybe it was the magical equivalent of a fake tatoo (just to scare people with lol ;))

He used henna? Lol!


Personally, I'm not sure whether this makes much difference. Does it really matter that he had the mark? Does it matter if he was an official Death Eater or not? He still committed acts in their name and obeyed their master. So how is him having the Mark such a pressing matter?

What? Give up a perfectly good debate because it doesn't matter? Honestly, let's keep our priorities straight. Lol!

Squeamishness is not the same as having a conscience. Draco didn't like to see gore and death in front of his own eyes. IMO, he would have had no problem with hurting others for personal gain, as long as he could do it from a distance.

I agree; based on what we've seen of Draco's character in the books, he seems the type who has little problem with doing the horrible thing but doesn't want to witness the aftermath or the consequences. It's easy for people to bad things to each other, it's a lot more difficult to be forced to stand there and witness how what you've done to someone actually affects them, be it physical injury (the blood and guts), emotional trauma or whatever. Being forced to confront the consequences of ones actions can often be what sets people straight and in Draco's case, when he can't outsource the gory stuff he learns that he doesn't actually want to do it.

I think it's completely logical and possible that the curse would work as you described above. The UV might consider intent and so "immediately" going after DD would not be required.

But then again, it might. We don't know and so all of this is just fun speculation. What prompted me to say immediately (besides adding significantly to the drama of an alternate story) is the phrase, in clause 3: "if it seems Draco will fail". The UV is expecting Snape to take over if it appears Draco will fail. We see that in the canon story on the Astronomy tower - Draco is simply hesitating and Snape assesses that he will fail, but he technically hasn't failed when Snape takes over.

However, in the "what if Draco died of Sectumsempra" scenario, Draco has failed utterly, totally and completely. I'm thinking the curse would then begin to behave with the same kind of finality and Snape would have to act, and act quickly, to avoid the consequences of the vow he made with Narcissa (note the use of her full name - lol!). In my opinion, of course.

I can see that. I suppose another question would be, though, is it only based on Snape's decision to take over, then? He judges on the Astronomy Tower that Draco appears likely to fail in that moment so he takes over. What if (assuming Snape wasn't a double agent here) he had judged three months earlier when Draco was futzin' around with necklaces and poisoned mead that he was failing and Snape decided to take over then? Would he still have to run out and blast Dumbledore that instant as he basically does on the Astronomy Tower? Or is it situationally dependant? On the Astronomy Tower Draco had Dumbledore was wandpoint and just couldn't get the words out so Snape did, in that moment, what Draco couldn't. If he had taken over months before when Draco was planning and plotting, would Snape then be able to plan and plot? Would the vow have recognized that he had judged Draco to be failing and that now Snape was the one to complete the mission?

Get where I'm coming from here?

Speculation is fun. :)

Okay, this is more along the lines of what I would accept, provided the interview was transcribed correctly. Why didn't she just give us that info on Pottermore?

Because it's not until HBP that the question of Draco being a Death Eater is raised. Patience, mirrormere, patience. ;)

He used henna? Lol!

Okay, the next time I whip me up a batch of henna I'm giving myself a dark mark. :rotfl:

I can see that. I suppose another question would be, though, is it only based on Snape's decision to take over, then? He judges on the Astronomy Tower that Draco appears likely to fail in that moment so he takes over. What if (assuming Snape wasn't a double agent here) he had judged three months earlier when Draco was futzin' around with necklaces and poisoned mead that he was failing and Snape decided to take over then? Would he still have to run out and blast Dumbledore that instant as he basically does on the Astronomy Tower? Or is it situationally dependant? On the Astronomy Tower Draco had Dumbledore was wandpoint and just couldn't get the words out so Snape did, in that moment, what Draco couldn't. If he had taken over months before when Draco was planning and plotting, would Snape then be able to plan and plot? Would the vow have recognized that he had judged Draco to be failing and that now Snape was the one to complete the mission?

As I recall as Snape was entering the Astronomy Tower one of the DEs remarked that Draco didn't appear to be able to do it (kill Dumbledore). At that point I don't think Snape had any choice but to cast an AK. Though even then he hesitated and Dumbledore had to beg, "Please, Severus."

I can see that. I suppose another question would be, though, is it only based on Snape's decision to take over, then?

The big question: how does the vow actually work? Is it able to tap into the sentiences involved in making it (ie Snape and Narcissa) and somehow decide? Snape would be on the immediate scene and making the decisions pertaining to keeping the vow, but, later, if Draco came to harm and Narcissa judged his efforts inadequate, would the vow then execute him? That would involve Snape trusting Narcissa to a very high degree. Of course, with Snape already set up to kill DD, the object of Draco's mission, I think he knew with certainty that he could fulfill Narcissa's requirements or he wouldn't have agreed to them.

Who, or what, decides?

He judges on the Astronomy Tower that Draco appears likely to fail in that moment so he takes over. What if (assuming Snape wasn't a double agent here) he had judged three months earlier when Draco was futzin' around with necklaces and poisoned mead that he was failing and Snape decided to take over then? Would he still have to run out and blast Dumbledore that instant as he basically does on the Astronomy Tower? Or is it situationally dependant? On the Astronomy Tower Draco had Dumbledore was wandpoint and just couldn't get the words out so Snape did, in that moment, what Draco couldn't. If he had taken over months before when Draco was planning and plotting, would Snape then be able to plan and plot? Would the vow have recognized that he had judged Draco to be failing and that now Snape was the one to complete the mission?

Complete conjecture, but with Draco essentially still safe from harm and still scheming DD's death three months previous to the tower, Snape would have had time to plan DD's death after deciding Draco couldn't do it - because Draco is still operational. There is nothing in the vow that prevents Snape from acting earlier, as far as I can tell.

But if Draco dies from Harry's Sectumsempra, it is a possibility that the vow would step up it's action. Does Narcissa's judgement come into play? If she finds out her son is dead, can she influence the vow, consciously or unconsciously, to execute Snape?

Also, Harry went after Draco because of the attempt on Katy's life which was directly connected to Draco's scheme to kill DD. The vow might recognize this as a consequence of Draco's mission and take action against Snape.

Get where I'm coming from here?

Oh, yes.

Speculation is fun.

It is!

Was it ever implied anywhere that Draco really was academically gifted? I assumed that he fixed the Vanishing Cabinet on instructions he got from the other Des.

From SS, Chapter 8:
"Snape put them all into pairs and set them to mixing up a simple potion to cure boils. He swept around in his long black cloak, watching them weigh dried nettles and crush snake fangs, criticizing almost everyone except Malfoy, whom he seemed to like. He was just telling everyone to look at the perfect way Malfoy had stewed his horned slugs when clouds of acid green smoke and a loud hissing filled the dungeon. Neville had somehow managed to melt Seamus’s cauldron into a twisted blob, and their potion was seeping across the stone floor, burning holes in people’s shoes."

Harry didn't seem to like Draco, and I think if Draco wasn't particularly bright or had any issues in his classes, Harry would have mentioned it somewhere. Also, Snape seemed to have very little patience with "dunderheads." I can't see him praising inept work, no matter who the student is. I think Draco was very bright.

The DE's didn't have access to the vanishing cabinet at Hogwarts, and for whatever reason, Draco seemed to turn down assistance, with the exception of Bella teaching him occlumancy.

Don't forget that Draco probably got private tutoring when he was at home for the holidays and private tutoring is very valuable. In OotP during Draco's transfiguration practical exam he could not even do a spell that Ron mastered when he was 11.

Don't forget that Draco probably got private tutoring when he was at home for the holidays and private tutoring is very valuable. In OotP during Draco's transfiguration practical exam he could not even do a spell that Ron mastered when he was 11.

I'm puzzled, Harry's Transfiguration O.W.L. practical only mentions Hannah Abbott transfiguring her ferret into a flock of flamingos. Is Draco's exam mentioned somewhere else?

I'm puzzled, Harry's Transfiguration O.W.L. practical only mentions Hannah Abbott transfiguring her ferret into a flock of flamingos. Is Draco's exam mentioned somewhere else?

My mistake as it was charms

'Professor Tofty is free, Potter,' squeaked Professor Flitwick, who was standing just inside the door. He pointed Harry towards what looked like the very oldest and baldest examiner who was sitting behind a small table in a far corner, a short distance from Professor Marchbanks, who was halfway through testing Draco Malfoy.

'Potter, is it?' said Professor Tofty, consulting his notes and peering over his pince-nez at Harry as he approached. The famous Potter?'

Out of the corner of his eye, Harry distinctly saw Malfoy throw a scathing look over at him; the wine-glass Malfoy had been levitating fell to the floor and smashed. Harry could not suppress a grin; Professor Tofty smiled back at him encouragingly.

My mistake as it was charms


'Professor Tofty is free, Potter,' squeaked Professor Flitwick, who was standing just inside the door. He pointed Harry towards what looked like the very oldest and baldest examiner who was sitting behind a small table in a far corner, a short distance from Professor Marchbanks, who was halfway through testing Draco Malfoy.

'Potter, is it?' said Professor Tofty, consulting his notes and peering over his pince-nez at Harry as he approached. The famous Potter?'

Out of the corner of his eye, Harry distinctly saw Malfoy throw a scathing look over at him; the wine-glass Malfoy had been levitating fell to the floor and smashed. Harry could not suppress a grin; Professor Tofty smiled back at him encouragingly.

Draco was successfully levitating his wine glass; he merely lost his concentration when he heard Professor Tofty's comment about Harry. IMO that doesn't mean he didn't know how to cast Wingardium Leviosa.

Still, you'd think that by then he'd have learned to control himself a bit better just because he hears the name "Potter".

Still, you'd think that by then he'd have learned to control himself a bit better just because he hears the name "Potter".

Especially since Ron managed to control the same spell when he was 11 and being attacked by a troll.

Draco Malfoy's last year at Hogwarts

id Draco Malfoy actually attend hogwarts in the deathly hallows?

Do you think he still played as seaker in the slytherin quidditch team?

Was he head boy?

How do you think he got on with:

Snape?

The Carrows?

Neville Longbottom?

The rest of Dumbledore's army?

Crabbe and Goyle?

Pansy Parkinson?

The other slytherins?

Still, you'd think that by then he'd have learned to control himself a bit better just because he hears the name "Potter".
It would have been nice if he didn't become momentarily distracted when he unexpectedly heard the name of someone he couldn't stand, while in Ron's situation his focus was on defeating a troll and nothing distracted him, but I still think he was an excellent student. If he were average or not very good, I think Harry would have noticed it. If he weren't above average, I don't think Snape would single him out for praise. I think one of Draco's big disappointments was that he was above average and expected to excel and have people pay attention to him, but Hermione and Harry got most of the attention and he resented that, and I think this, along with his upbringing, tended to make him behave like a bully, especially towards those two.

I'm not trying to excuse Draco's behavior, by the way, just analyze it.

It would have been nice if he didn't become momentarily distracted when he unexpectedly heard the name of someone he couldn't stand, while in Ron's situation his focus was on defeating a troll and nothing distracted him, but I still think he was an excellent student. If he were average or not very good, I think Harry would have noticed it. If he weren't above average, I don't think Snape would single him out for praise. I think one of Draco's big disappointments was that he was above average and expected to excel and have people pay attention to him, but Hermione and Harry got most of the attention and he resented that, and I think this, along with his upbringing, tended to make him behave like a bully, especially towards those two.

I'm not trying to excuse Draco's behavior, by the way, just analyze it.

There's nothing to suggest Draco was anything out of the ordinary as a student imo and by that I mean he wasn't any better than the likes of Harry. Ron etc.. Snape singling him out doesn't suggest much to me as Snape was not only partial to Slytherin, he also seemed to have a bit of soft spot for Draco.

Draco was a bully because he thought he was superior to everyone else due the money and influence of his father and wanted everyone to follow him due to that.

It would have been nice if he didn't become momentarily distracted when he unexpectedly heard the name of someone he couldn't stand, while in Ron's situation his focus was on defeating a troll and nothing distracted him, but I still think he was an excellent student. If he were average or not very good, I think Harry would have noticed it. If he weren't above average, I don't think Snape would single him out for praise. I think one of Draco's big disappointments was that he was above average and expected to excel and have people pay attention to him, but Hermione and Harry got most of the attention and he resented that, and I think this, along with his upbringing, tended to make him behave like a bully, especially towards those two.

I'm not trying to excuse Draco's behavior, by the way, just analyze it.

Other than DADA, Transfiguration and Potions is there any evidence that Draco got OWLS in his other subjects? Draco seemed good at potions but other than that he did not seem particularly talented in any of the other subjects.

Other than DADA, Transfiguration and Potions is there any evidence that Draco got OWLS in his other subjects? Draco seemed good at potions but other than that he did not seem particularly talented in any of the other subjects.
We aren't told, and that to me is telling, since the books are primarily told from Harry's viewpoint.

Forgot to mention - along with repairing the Vanishing Cabinet, we also know Draco could do Occlumancy with sufficient enough skill to keep Snape out of his mind (although we are not told how gifted Snape was at Legilimency).

We aren't told, and that to me is telling, since the books are primarily told from Harry's viewpoint.

Forgot to mention - along with repairing the Vanishing Cabinet, we also know Draco could do Occlumancy with sufficient enough skill to keep Snape out of his mind (although we are not told how gifted Snape was at Legilimency).

We also know that he can't do a Patronus. It is not surprising that Draco can do a spell that requires him to shut down the good inside him while he can't do a spell that requires him to find the good in him.

Also why is it telling that it is only mentioned that Draco got 3 owls?

Learning Occlumency does not tell us anything at all imo. He learned Occlumency because he needed to, he couldn't risk anyone finding about his pal. It was necessary that he learn it. That's no different from Harry who when he really needed to shut his mind is able to do it in DH, no different from Ron who although fails to perform Wingardium Leviosa in class is suddenly able to perform it when a troll happens to pass by. Harry was never fully committed to learning Occlumency where as judging from Draco's eagerness at being given the chance to kill Dumbledore he was a more eager student. Necessity is very important in learning anything.

And didn't Draco get help from Borgin on how to repair the cabinet?

Learning Occlumency does not tell us anything at all imo. He learned Occlumency because he needed to, he couldn't risk anyone finding about his pal. It was necessary that he learn it. That's no different from Harry who when he really needed to shut his mind is able to do it in DH, no different from Ron who although fails to perform Wingardium Leviosa in class is suddenly able to perform it when a troll happens to pass by. Harry was never fully committed to learning Occlumency where as judging from Draco's eagerness at being given the chance to kill Dumbledore he was a more eager student. Necessity is very important in learning anything.

And didn't Draco get help from Borgin on how to repair the cabinet?
I think Occlumency was something very advanced, and it wasn't taught as part of the Hogwarts curriculum. Not very many seemed to be able to do it.

Draco spoke with Borgin because the sister Vanishing Cabinet at Borgin and Burkes was at Hogwarts. Draco needed the DEs to enter that cabinet and exit the one at Hogwarts, and for that he needed the shop owner's co-operation.

Rowling said that it was naturally easier for Draco to do Occlumency because the key part of the spell is shutting down your emotions and closing yourself off emotionally. [staff edit]

Harry and Ron, by contrast, are more emotional and compassionate people which made it harder for Harry.

Rowling said that it was naturally easier for Draco to do Occlumency because the key part of the spell is shutting down your emotions and closing yourself off emotionally.
Harry and Ron, by contrast, are more emotional and compassionate people which made it harder for Harry.
I think Occlumency was to the Death Eaters what the Patronus Charm was to the Order. Both were difficult to do, advanced magic, and neither were taught at Hogwarts. Occlumency requires the ability to shut down your emotions. The Patronus Chram requires the ability to fully experience a particular emotion. Both require above average ability to focus, I think, and they're still advanced magic.

The average DE didn't seem to be able to do Occlumency - but Draco could.

I'd think it would make sense for most DEs to be able to do Occlumency, to protect any secrets Voldemort gave them (as well as the identities of fellow DEs). Is there anything that shows most DEs not knowing how to do it?

I'd think it would make sense for most DEs to be able to do Occlumency, to protect any secrets Voldemort gave them (as well as the identities of fellow DEs). Is there anything that shows most DEs not knowing how to do it?
To my knowledge, the only known Occlumens were Snape, Dumbledore, Voldemort, Bellatrix, and I suspect Slughorn (think i read that somewhere) and Barty Crouch jr. No one else is listed as being able to do it.

Although i don't usually trust Wiki, this describes the needed requirements very well, I think, and most people wouldn't have the ability, and I've never found evidence to contradict this:

It requires a great deal of will power, as with resisting the Imperius Curse, as well as a high degree of mental and emotional discipline. It is also one method of resisting the influence of Veritaserum.

Occlumency is not part of the normal curriculum taught at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry and appears to be a rare and difficult skill.

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Occlumency

Can you show where is was a common skill among DEs, or any group of people? Also, many DE's after the first war claimed they were under the Imperius Curse. If this was seen as a typical DE skill, then that excuse would not have worked, I suspect.

I think Occlumency was something very advanced, and it wasn't taught as part of the Hogwarts curriculum. Not very many seemed to be able to do it.

Draco spoke with Borgin because the sister Vanishing Cabinet at Borgin and Burkes was at Hogwarts. Draco needed the DEs to enter that cabinet and exit the one at Hogwarts, and for that he needed the shop owner's co-operation.

Occlumency was not part of the curriculum and not known by many people probably because it wasn't very necessary. There's no real need for students to be taught about Occlumency and it's not as if there are numerous Legilemens around either who could poke into your mind.

Draco did not know how to repair the Vanishing cabinet which is why he went there. When Borgin does not commit himself Draco threatens him with what was quite likely to be the dark mark and Greyback and tells Borgin to tell no one about it. He must have corresponded in some way with Borgin after that. Not just that Draco said he had help from other people besides Crabbe and Goyle which indicates more than just Madam Rosmerta.

I consider Harry to be a fairly average student despite him learning the Patronus charm and I see Draco as no different. Occlumency depends more on the character of the person using it than any kind of magical skill. It was Draco's rather sly character and his need for learning the skill that made the difference.

And Snape used an actual spell to read Harry while he does not do the same with Draco, so I doubt it was as powerful.

I think we can also assume Draco excelled at Potions since Snape only accepted those that got "Outstandings" in their OWLs. Harry and Ron, not knowing they could take Potions with an EE with Slughorn, did not have the book or ingredients. It seems since they did not know, no one else would have known either. When Harry and Ron showed up for Slughorn's first class, Draco was already there and had both the book and ingredients. This implies, at least to me, that Draco got an "O" on his Potions OWL, which was graded by Ministry officials, not Snape. So even by an impartial party's standard, Draco was good at Potions.

As far as the rest of the subjects, as MerryLore stated, we see things from Harry's perspective so we have no idea what other subjects Draco took unless Harry mentioned them (and Harry only had two classes with Slytherins through 5th year: Care of Magical Creatures and Potions). Also, Draco could have gotten an OWL in a subject and not decided to pursue it to the NEWT level.

It would have been nice if he didn't become momentarily distracted when he unexpectedly heard the name of someone he couldn't stand, while in Ron's situation his focus was on defeating a troll and nothing distracted him, but I still think he was an excellent student.

:hmm: I'm pretty sure the threat of an attacking troll counts as a distraction. Personally, I would consider it a rather bigger distraction than the mention of a name. And as for Draco being distracted, that was his own fault, not that of the exmainer or Harry, or anyone else. Should the examiner have ignored Harry until Malfoy had finished? The students were not performing the exam on their own in the room, and it would have been nice if Malfoy could focus. Part of the exam, I presume, is being able to perform magic when under pressure. Conditions for spell-casting are not always going to be perfect, and if all it takes to distract him is the mention of a name, then I don't think Malfoy is all that skilled.

If he were average or not very good, I think Harry would have noticed it. If he weren't above average, I don't think Snape would single him out for praise. I think one of Draco's big disappointments was that he was above average and expected to excel and have people pay attention to him, but Hermione and Harry got most of the attention and he resented that, and I think this, along with his upbringing, tended to make him behave like a bully, especially towards those two.

I think Draco expected people to praise him because he had been raised with the delusion that the Malfoy name and generations of pureblood made him superior. I think it was a shock to the system when he got to Hogwarts and found that for most teachers, none of this mattered worth a jot. I think it hit him in the entitlement complex.


There's nothing to suggest Draco was anything out of the ordinary as a student imo and by that I mean he wasn't any better than the likes of Harry. Ron etc.. Snape singling him out doesn't suggest much to me as Snape was not only partial to Slytherin, he also seemed to have a bit of soft spot for Draco.

Draco was a bully because he thought he was superior to everyone else due the money and influence of his father and wanted everyone to follow him due to that.


I agree.

I think Occlumency was something very advanced, and it wasn't taught as part of the Hogwarts curriculum. Not very many seemed to be able to do it.

That does not mean it was very advanced. The Patronus was not taught at OWL level, and yet, when a fifteen year old boy taught it to a group of fellow teenagers, several fourth and fifth year students had success, or the beginnings of success with the spell.

To my knowledge, the only known Occlumens were Snape, Dumbledore, Voldemort, Bellatrix, and I suspect Slughorn (think i read that somewhere) and Barty Crouch jr. No one else is listed as being able to do it.

Draco also knew at least some Occlumency - in the conversation Harry eavesdropped on, Snape was irritated that he could not access Draco's mind and commented that Bellatrix had been teaching him Occlumency.

Can you show where is was a common skill among DEs, or any group of people? Also, many DE's after the first war claimed they were under the Imperius Curse. If this was seen as a typical DE skill, then that excuse would not have worked, I suspect.

I doubt the DEs advertised their "typical skills" to the civilised public. They certainly didn't let the public know that they were branded with the Dark Mark. And even if the Ministry considered Occlumency to be something DEs trained in, those claiming to have been Imperiused would have the excuse that they didn't know Occlumency because they were coerced, rather than true DEs.

I think we can also assume Draco excelled at Potions since Snape only accepted those that got "Outstandings" in their OWLs. Harry and Ron, not knowing they could take Potions with an EE with Slughorn, did not have the book or ingredients. It seems since they did not know, no one else would have known either. When Harry and Ron showed up for Slughorn's first class, Draco was already there and had both the book and ingredients. This implies, at least to me, that Draco got an "O" on his Potions OWL, which was graded by Ministry officials, not Snape. So even by an impartial party's standard, Draco was good at Potions.

Snape, knowing in advance that Slughorn would be teaching Potions, and having contact with Draco and his family, might well have told Draco he could continue with an Exceeds Expectations grade before the return to Hogwarts. Draco might have scored Outstanding, but he might also have scored Exceeds Expectations.

Snape, knowing in advance that Slughorn would be teaching Potions, and having contact with Draco and his family, might well have told Draco he could continue with an Exceeds Expectations grade before the return to Hogwarts. Draco might have scored Outstanding, but he might also have scored Exceeds Expectations.

Considering what else was going on that summer, I doubt that Snape was too concerned with Draco's grades.

Considering what else was going on that summer, I doubt that Snape was too concerned with Draco's grades.

Snape would have still probably told him.

Plus odds are very high that Draco got home tutoring which is very very useful for grades and also not something that most students would have had access to.

Considering what else was going on that summer, I doubt that Snape was too concerned with Draco's grades.

It's not as if it would have taken a long conversation. Snape would probably have known the grades his students got - especially the son of a fellow DE. Especially Draco. And if Snape knew that Draco enjoyed/wanted to continue Potions, and that Draco had got Exceeds Expectations, instead of Outstanding, then, yes, I think Snape would have mentioned it to Draco that he could continue with the subject. Even if it were only for the chance of keeping Draco on-side and a better chance at finding out his plans. Actually, in that case, it would benefit Snape to be the one to let Draco know (and in advance) that he could continue with Potions.

Yes, there was a lot going on. But Snape continued to teach, despite having a lot going on. He had contact with the Malfoy family, at least to some extent. I think he could easily have told Draco about the change of requirements. It wouldn't have taken long, wouldn't have required a detailed conversation. Just the information that there would be a new Potions teacher, who would accept students with Exceeds Expectations.

Plus odds are very high that Draco got home tutoring which is very very useful for grades and also not something that most students would have had access to.Are you suggesting that Snape would have home-tutored Draco, or his parents, or an outside tutor bought in? I can't think of any evidence that Snape would have done that and if it was his parents then any student with wizard parents could have had the same benefit.

It's not as if it would have taken a long conversation. Snape would probably have known the grades his students got - especially the son of a fellow DE. Especially Draco. And if Snape knew that Draco enjoyed/wanted to continue Potions, and that Draco had got Exceeds Expectations, instead of Outstanding, then, yes, I think Snape would have mentioned it to Draco that he could continue with the subject. Even if it were only for the chance of keeping Draco on-side and a better chance at finding out his plans. Actually, in that case, it would benefit Snape to be the one to let Draco know (and in advance) that he could continue with Potions.

Yes, there was a lot going on. But Snape continued to teach, despite having a lot going on. He had contact with the Malfoy family, at least to some extent. I think he could easily have told Draco about the change of requirements. It wouldn't have taken long, wouldn't have required a detailed conversation. Just the information that there would be a new Potions teacher, who would accept students with Exceeds Expectations.With Lucius in Azkaban after Draco's 5th year I'd have expected Snape to have had less contact with the Malfoys than usual. It's possible that if Voldemort knew that Snape was going to become the DADA teacher at last then other DEs might have known too (including Bellatrix) and could have told Draco. I agree it would only have taken an owl to let Draco know he'd be able to do Potions the next year under Slughorn but it's equally possible that Draco actually did get Outstanding for Potions.

Are you suggesting that Snape would have home-tutored Draco, or his parents, or an outside tutor bought in? I can't think of any evidence that Snape would have done that and if it was his parents then any student with wizard parents could have had the same benefit.


Any student with wealthy and influential wizard parents, I'd think.

Are you suggesting that Snape would have home-tutored Draco, or his parents, or an outside tutor bought in? I can't think of any evidence that Snape would have done that and if it was his parents then any student with wizard parents could have had the same benefit.

With Lucius in Azkaban after Draco's 5th year I'd have expected Snape to have had less contact with the Malfoys than usual. It's possible that if Voldemort knew that Snape was going to become the DADA teacher at last then other DEs might have known too (including Bellatrix) and could have told Draco. I agree it would only have taken an owl to let Draco know he'd be able to do Potions the next year under Slughorn but it's equally possible that Draco actually did get Outstanding for Potions.

That's right, I'd forgotten Lucius was in Azkaban, which brings to mind how resentful of Snape Draco was, accusing him of usurping his father's place with Voldemort. I find it doubtful that there'd be much contact between them until they returned to Hogwarts that September. After all, Narcissa made a trip to Spinner's End to ask Snape to help Draco rather than during a visit of Snape's to Malfoy Manor.

It's not inconceivable that Draco had been home tutored though I doubt whether it was Snape who taught him. Didn't JKR say that Molly had educated all of her kids before they went to Hogwarts? The Weasleys of course did not teach magic but I doubt the Malfoy's would care too much about the underage rules

We learn from Harry in HBP that he had thought that Snape 'respected and liked' Draco...

Are you suggesting that Snape would have home-tutored Draco, or his parents, or an outside tutor bought in? I can't think of any evidence that Snape would have done that and if it was his parents then any student with wizard parents could have had the same benefit.

I mean home tutored by a professional and i am more referring to during the breaks at Hogwarts. I bet the Malfoy's managed to find a way so Draco could use magic at the Malfoy Manor before he turned 17 so Draco could practice spells with his tutor.

That's right, I'd forgotten Lucius was in Azkaban, which brings to mind how resentful of Snape Draco was, accusing him of usurping his father's place with Voldemort. I find it doubtful that there'd be much contact between them until they returned to Hogwarts that September. After all, Narcissa made a trip to Spinner's End to ask Snape to help Draco rather than during a visit of Snape's to Malfoy Manor.
And I think this is the key point. Lucius was in Azkaban, and Voldy told Draco to kill DD. I think the last thing on her mind was Draco's OWL grades. Within a year, they could be dead, or Voldy could soon rise to power.

Can you see her adding this to the Unbreakable Vow?

“Will you, Severus, watch over my son, Draco, as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lord’s wishes?”
“I will,” said Snape.
“And will you, to the best of your ability, protect him from harm?”
“I will,” said Snape.
“And, should it prove necessary … if it seems Draco will fail …” whispered Narcissa (Snape’s hand twitched within hers, but he did not draw away), “will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?”
“I will,” said Snape.
"Oh! And will you let Draco be in your Potions class, even though he did not get an O on his Potions OWL?"
"It's ok - I'm not teaching that class next year."
From HBP, Spinner's End, underlined sentences are mine.

I think Draco simply earned an O.

While I don't see Snape tutoring any passing student during the school year, and any other student while Hogwarts isn't in session, to me, overall, whether or not Draco was tutored is irrelevant. Harry tutored DD's Army and to my knowledge they did well on their DADA owls, thanks to him, but they still did the work and earned the grade. If the examiners found out they had been tutored, they'd not consider it cheating, nor would they think the student deserved a lower grade. I also think that, if you don't have some natural talent at a subject, tutoring will help you pass a class, but it won't get you an O. You'd be average and get an A, I think. My opinion.

So you think that that is the only moment in between 5th and 6th year that Snape had contact with the Malfoy family?

So you think that that is the only moment in between 5th and 6th year that Snape had contact with the Malfoy family?
That would be my guess, yes. Narcissa showed up at Spinner's End and got what she wanted from Snape. Bella had constant access to Draco and didn't like Snape and most likely was letting him know about it, because Draco's attitude towards Snape seems to change in HBP. Not only that, Draco's focus was on figuring out how to kill DD, and he didn't tell Snape anything about it. And Lucius was in Azkaban.

[staff edit]

To me there is little doubt there is a connection between Snape and the Malfoy family and that Draco got a much much easier ride in Potions than a Gryffindor student. Given Snape is involved it is not hard to guess that Draco was told about the change of teachers in Potions months before it actually happened.

Plus given Snape's teaching style it is not hard to guess that Slytherin's had a distinct advantage in learning Potions because if a Gryffindor student made a mistake or questioned something in Snape's class Snape would have either yelled at them, deducted points or given them detention however if a Slytherin made a mistake or questioned something Snape was much more likely to help them figure out what that mistake was and to help them learn from the mistake thus giving all Slytherin students a massive advantage.

Can we refrain from making (personal) assumptions about other members? Thanks.

To me there is little doubt there is a connection between Snape and the Malfoy family and that Draco got a much much easier ride in Potions than a Gryffindor student. Given Snape is involved it is not hard to guess that Draco was told about the change of teachers in Potions months before it actually happened.

Plus given Snape's teaching style it is not hard to guess that Slytherin's had a distinct advantage in learning Potions because if a Gryffindor student made a mistake or questioned something in Snape's class Snape would have either yelled at them, deducted points or given them detention however if a Slytherin made a mistake or questioned something Snape was much more likely to help them figure out what that mistake was and to help them learn from the mistake thus giving all Slytherin students a massive advantage.

Draco got an O. So did Hermione. I think Crabbe and Goyle did poorly in Potions, as did Neville. And I see no bias in making this statement. Harry only received one O - in DADA. Snape did not teach all of Harry's other classes. As far as we know, Neville only excelled at Herbology if I remember correctly, and Snape did not teach all of Neville's other classes. Hermione received an O in all of her OWLS except DADA, and Snape did not teach all of her other classes.

Snape himself did not know months before hand that he would be teaching DADA. DD would not have made the decision until he had been poisoned and knew he was dying and Voldy asked Draco to kill him, which would have happened towards the very end of the school year.

While Snape did seem to have a good relationship with the Malfoys, this doesn't mean he tutored Draco, although he did tutor Crabbe and Goyle. Yes - Snape favored Draco and was harsh at times on Hermione, Harry, and Neville, but I still don't think that means Draco did not earn and O and Hermione did not earn an O (her usual grade) and Harry did not earn an E (his usual grade). To me, this speaks volumes. I also think even kids who bully other kids can do well in school and excel in at least one subject, regardless of my personal opinion about the character.

I don't remember the exact study but there was a study done a while ago where social scientists went to a primary school. At this primary school they gave every child a test to do which they told the teacher would be able to tell how smart a child really is (sort of like a more advanced IQ test). In reality the test was nonsense and when the children handed back their tests the social scientists threw them away and did not even look at them. However then the conductors of the experiment picked 5 or 6 names at random on the class role and told the teacher that these children are particularly gifted and had the most potential and then they left.

Now they came back 3 months later and they asked the teacher what she thought about the 6 particularly gifted students and she agreed that they were very gifted and she simply did not notice before and in fact since she had been paying more attention to them their results and class work had improved greatly.

However as the experimenters were trying to find out there 6 or so students were not particularly gifted but they were trying to find out how subconsciously a teacher favouring one group of students above another affects the students results and they found out that the subconscious favouring had a massive influence and improve the children results who were being favoured a lot.

Now my point is that Snape's favouring of the Slytherin students was not even subconscious so his favouring the Slytherin's would have definitely given them a massive advantage over the other students who he did not favour.

Are you suggesting that Snape would have home-tutored Draco, or his parents, or an outside tutor bought in? I can't think of any evidence that Snape would have done that and if it was his parents then any student with wizard parents could have had the same benefit.

Those that could afford private tuition and didn't mind breaking the law about underage magic.

With Lucius in Azkaban after Draco's 5th year I'd have expected Snape to have had less contact with the Malfoys than usual. It's possible that if Voldemort knew that Snape was going to become the DADA teacher at last then other DEs might have known too (including Bellatrix) and could have told Draco. I agree it would only have taken an owl to let Draco know he'd be able to do Potions the next year under Slughorn but it's equally possible that Draco actually did get Outstanding for Potions.

It's possible that Draco got an O. I was pointing out the possibility that he got an Exceeds Expectations. Both are possible.

That's right, I'd forgotten Lucius was in Azkaban, which brings to mind how resentful of Snape Draco was, accusing him of usurping his father's place with Voldemort. I find it doubtful that there'd be much contact between them until they returned to Hogwarts that September. After all, Narcissa made a trip to Spinner's End to ask Snape to help Draco rather than during a visit of Snape's to Malfoy Manor.

I think that goes to show how desperate Narcissa was. She wanted to protect her son. Was she to wait until Snape paid a visit, then pounce on her guest for an Unbreakable Vow? Perhaps she couldn't anticipate when Snape would visit the Manor, especially with Lucius in prison.

It's not inconceivable that Draco had been home tutored though I doubt whether it was Snape who taught him. Didn't JKR say that Molly had educated all of her kids before they went to Hogwarts? The Weasleys of course did not teach magic but I doubt the Malfoy's would care too much about the underage rules

I think it's possible that the Malfoys hired tutors for Draco, and not just in Potions. I agree, they wouldn't care a jot about the underage rules. After all, the don't care too much about laws against murder and torture, so laws against underage magic would be no big deal, as long as they felt they wouldn't get caught.


To me there is little doubt there is a connection between Snape and the Malfoy family and that Draco got a much much easier ride in Potions than a Gryffindor student. Given Snape is involved it is not hard to guess that Draco was told about the change of teachers in Potions months before it actually happened.

I agree. Why would Narcissa go to a random Death Eater, just because he happens to teach at Hogwarts? She would need to know him reasonably well before she entrusted her son's life to him. Narcissa mentions the friendship between Lucius and Snape, I think. And Umbridge definitely does, at some point in OotP - she says that Lucius always speaks highly of Snape.

Plus given Snape's teaching style it is not hard to guess that Slytherin's had a distinct advantage in learning Potions because if a Gryffindor student made a mistake or questioned something in Snape's class Snape would have either yelled at them, deducted points or given them detention however if a Slytherin made a mistake or questioned something Snape was much more likely to help them figure out what that mistake was and to help them learn from the mistake thus giving all Slytherin students a massive advantage.


Good point. Draco was at a huge advantage in class. He had the opportunity to learn when he made a mistake, rather than be humiliated when he made a mistake. He had the opportunity to learn without the threat of snide remarks.

Draco got an O.

Is there definitive canon proof for that?

As far as we know, Neville only excelled at Herbology if I remember correctly, and Snape did not teach all of Neville's other classes.

Neville only "excelled" at Herbology, perhaps, but he did reasonably well in other subjects.

Snape himself did not know months before hand that he would be teaching DADA. DD would not have made the decision until he had been poisoned and knew he was dying and Voldy asked Draco to kill him, which would have happened towards the very end of the school year.

Snape would have known during the summer holidays. Harry accompanied Dumbledore to hire Slughorn just two weeks into the summer holidays. Therefore, Snape would have known for certain by mid-July that he would no longer be teaching Potions.


but I still don't think that means Draco did not earn and O and Hermione did not earn an O (her usual grade) andHarry did not earn an E (his usual grade).
This was not Harry's usual grade, it was better than the usual grade he got from Snape. Clearly, having an unbiased person assessing the work helps.

To me, this speaks volumes. I also think even kids who bully other kids can do well in school and excel in at least one subject, regardless of my personal opinion about the character.

I agree. The Death Eaters were not all dimwits like Crabbe and Goyle Sr. I'm sure some of them managed to excel in school, too.

I don't remember the exact study but there was a study done a while ago where social scientists went to a primary school. At this primary school they gave every child a test to do which they told the teacher would be able to tell how smart a child really is (sort of like a more advanced IQ test). In reality the test was nonsense and when the children handed back their tests the social scientists threw them away and did not even look at them. However then the conductors of the experiment picked 5 or 6 names at random on the class role and told the teacher that these children are particularly gifted and had the most potential and then they left.


One teacher. This study does not measure a student's performance among each of their classes. Other professors seemed to like Harry and Hermione, while Snape did not, and yet Harry mostly received E's in his OWLS, with one O, and Hermione received O's in her OWLS with an E in DADA. Ron's grades were also consistent, and I suspect the other student's were as well. Neville, for example, didn't seem to do well in Potions or Transfiguration, but he did excel in Herbology. I'm willing to change my mind if someone can present different evidence.

I think learning is a combination of genetics, environment, and personality. There isn't a simple answer. It can't all be hung on one peg or one character, like Snape.

My impression of Draco is that he came from two intelligent families (Malfoys and Blacks) and an environment where he was expected to excel by his father who would have given him every opportunity to excel and to have the best of everything. He saw Harry as competition and resented him and wanted to outshine him at everything. When Harry and Ron, who did not believe they met the requirements to continue with Potions walked into the class and saw Malfoy, who appeared to know beforehand that he did meet those requirements, I see a connection, based on that, Narcissa's visit to Spinner's End which i discussed earlier, and Malfoy's background which lead me to believe he received an O in Potions.

^^ I agree with MerryLore. As I stated in my earlier post, I think it is a fair assumption that Draco got an "O" in Potions. Snape, while he did favor Draco, did not do so just because he was friendly with Lucius. Snape did not favor Crabbe or Goyle in Potions (as they did not seem to excel). I also got the impression that Draco was gifted from Lucius' comment in CoS where he says that Draco ought to be ashamed that a Muggle-born (Hermione) beat him in every subject. That seems to imply that if not for Hermione, Draco was above-average, maybe even the next best in their year.

As for Potions, Harry, when he arrived at Slughorn's first lesson, noted that four Slytherins had made it through, four Ravenclaws, 1 Hufflepuff, and then Harry, Ron and Hermione. Even if we assume that Snape told Draco he could continue with an EE (unlikely, IMO), I doubt Snape informed any of the other students, so that means they ALL received O's (otherwise, like Ron and Harry, they would have been unprepared). We never saw Snape praise anyone other than Malfoy in Potions, so I doubt other Slytherins were better at Potions than Malfoy. Based on all of these facts and the fact that we have no indication Snape told Draco anything, it seems unlikely to me that Draco received an "EE" and just happened to be prepared. Ron and Harry were the only two unprepared to be there because they were the only two who had received an "EE" IMO.

Like others have said, given the climate of the Death Eaters prior to the 6th year (plus the fact that Lucius was in Azkaban), it seems unlikely to me that any of them really cared about Draco's OWL grades.

As for the study cited by GingerCat1, I agree that Snape's teaching may have had an impact on the students such as Neville (who I believe did do better outside of Snape's influence), but OWLs were graded by impartial Ministry officials. So I fail to see how Snape's teaching could have affected the OWL grade for Draco. Even if Draco got better grades from Snape because of favoritism, if he was as good as Snape always claimed, he would have been good when left to his own devices in the OWL test as well.

I think learning is a combination of genetics, environment, and personality. There isn't a simple answer. It can't all be hung on one peg or one character, like Snape.

I think that teachers involved are a huge factor in learning and one that cannot be discounted.

My impression of Draco is that he came from two intelligent families (Malfoys and Blacks) and an environment where he was expected to excel by his father who would have given him every opportunity to excel and to have the best of everything. He saw Harry as competition and resented him and wanted to outshine him at everything. When Harry and Ron, who did not believe they met the requirements to continue with Potions walked into the class and saw Malfoy, who appeared to know beforehand that he did meet those requirements, I see a connection, based on that, Narcissa's visit to Spinner's End which i discussed earlier, and Malfoy's background which lead me to believe he received an O in Potions.

Two intelligent families? In what way can it be said that the families were intelligent? Pureblood does not equal intelligent, much as Lucius and co. like to think it does. I'm sure they expected Draco to do well, yes. However, it doesn't mean that Draco came from two high-achieving families. Where are the Malfoys or the Blacks shown to be intelligent? Devious, yes, certainly in Lucius' case, but that doesn't equal intelligence or academic achievement.

Malfoy may have known that he met the requirements because Snape told him about the change. Snape would surely have informed Voldemort that he had been appointed Defence teacher. Voldemort would not appreciate finding out from someone else, I imagine. Such information could easily reach Draco. I'm not saying that Snape definitely told Draco he could now continue with an EE grade; I'm just saying it is possible.

Snape, while he did favor Draco, did not do so just because he was friendly with Lucius. Snape did not favor Crabbe or Goyle in Potions (as they did not seem to excel). I also got the impression that Draco was gifted from Lucius' comment in CoS where he says that Draco ought to be ashamed that a Muggle-born (Hermione) beat him in every subject. That seems to imply that if not for Hermione, Draco was above-average, maybe even the next best in their year.

Or perhaps it's further evidence that Lucius had a massive entitlement complex, and believes that the Malfoy name entitles one to top grades. It doesn't mean Draco was especially outstanding, just that Lucius, with his blood prejudices, was furious at seeing his prejudices so soundly turned on their head by having a Muggleborn beat Draco.

And as for Snape's behaviour towards Crabbe and Goyle, he may not have favoured them, but he certainly did not publicly humiliate them for their lack of success with Potions, as he did to students like Neville and Harry. And his favouring of Draco was not to do with Draco's skill with Potions, as Hermione was also skilled at Potions, and she got only derision from Snape. IMO, these comparisons go to show that the preferential treatment Draco got probably had a lot to do with his House and more importantly, probably, who his father was.

As for Potions, Harry, when he arrived at Slughorn's first lesson, noted that four Slytherins had made it through, four Ravenclaws, 1 Hufflepuff, and then Harry, Ron and Hermione. Even if we assume that Snape told Draco he could continue with an EE (unlikely, IMO), I doubt Snape informed any of the other students, so that means they ALL received O's (otherwise, like Ron and Harry, they would have been unprepared).

Probably not, if they were not from DE families. Or DE families that he knew well and was close to. In any case, I wasn't talking about the entire Potions NEWT class. I was talking about Malfoy, specifically.

We never saw Snape praise anyone other than Malfoy in Potions, so I doubt other Slytherins were better at Potions than Malfoy.

He didn't praise them, but he also did not humiliate them in front of the whole class. I cannot find it remotely credible that Crabbe and Goyle could have been more competent in Potions (or anything, apart from torture and dark magic) than Neville.

Like others have said, given the climate of the Death Eaters prior to the 6th year (plus the fact that Lucius was in Azkaban), it seems unlikely to me that any of them really cared about Draco's OWL grades.

It would benefit Snape to keep Draco on-side, when he wanted information about Draco's plans. And if Draco liked Potions, and wanted to continue, it would be a good idea for Snape to let him know he could continue. And I'm sure Draco would have seen the benefit in continuing with Potions - I think a wannabe DE would want to know how to make poisons, especially considering what he was planning.

As for the study cited by GingerCat1, I agree that Snape's teaching may have had an impact on the students such as Neville (who I believe did do better outside of Snape's influence), but OWLs were graded by impartial Ministry officials. So I fail to see how Snape's teaching could have affected the OWL grade for Draco. Even if Draco got better grades from Snape because of favoritism, if he was as good as Snape always claimed, he would have been good when left to his own devices in the OWL test as well.

I think it's obvious how preferential treatment from Snape helped Draco to perform better. He was not nervous, when working with Potions, as Neville was, or enduring it, as Harry was. Malfoy was able to learn during Potions lessons. He could make mistakes and learn from them. Whereas if Harry or other Gryffindors made a mistake, public humiliation from Snape awaited. This meant that Draco had a firmer foundation, a firmer grasp on Potions, and a tonne more confidence going into a Potions exam than a student who had been subjected to five years of bullying in Potions class.

Two intelligent families? In what way can it be said that the families were intelligent? Pureblood does not equal intelligent, much as Lucius and co. like to think it does. I'm sure they expected Draco to do well, yes. However, it doesn't mean that Draco came from two high-achieving families. Where are the Malfoys or the Blacks shown to be intelligent? Devious, yes, certainly in Lucius' case, but that doesn't equal intelligence or academic achievement.

A person can be intelligent but have the ugliest and most evil values. A person can also be not very bright, but their heart can be in the right place, I think.

I think one glance at the members of the Black family shows intelligence. Sirius was a Black and very intelligent - he excelled at academics, but I didn't get the impression he studied much. Tonks mother was a Black, and Tonks was bright enough to become an Auror. Arthur Weasley's parents were most likely Septimus Weasley and Cedrella Black, and I think the Weasley kids were much brighter than the average lot, as was Arthur. And Bellatrix Black Lestrange was bright enough to get herself high standing in Voldemort's DEs, and I suspect that required much more than bloodlust.

The Malfoys? Lucius was a Prefect - and they seem as a group to be intelligent and to be leaders. And I got the impression from Pottermore that the Malfoys were a group intelligent enough to amass a fortune, and one even courted Queen Elizabeth 1st.

And Draco came from these two families.

This thread needs more Draco Malfoy. But fortunately, it's time for a new thread anyway, and you're all welcome to start posting there with the best intentions to keep on topic. ;)


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