Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis

I agree that Lily seems to be an extrovert. We don't know too much about her, but I get the impression she was popular and outspoken.

Lily seems like an extrovert to me too. From what we see, almost everything on that list applies to her.

Lily Evan Potter -- A Character Analysis... completely my thoughts and opinions...

Lily Evans Potter in my opinion was a very contradictory lady. To me she comes across as a mixture of extreme goodness and a something I am not quite able to place my finger upon.

She was very kind. She was very brave; brave enough to defy Voldemort three times before she was not quite twenty.

She was a loving mother, she loved her child so much that she died for him, throwing herself in between Voldemort and Harry.

She was also very compassionate and did not shy away from a werewolf, infact going out of her way to support the impoverished Remus Lupin.

She also liked Sirius enough to agree with James's suggestion that he be named Harry's godfather.

Petunia Dursley had only envious things to say about Lily. Lily is never seen badmouthing her sister... only distressed by her hurt...

Her contradictions begin here when she accepted Snape as her friend and became his best friend as well.

Snape obviously came from an abused and an unaring family. Lily never minds that Snape is dressed so shabbily or that he is unclean sometimes. She is openly friendly with him and likes him so much that Jo says had he not been swayed by dark arts Lily might have even been romantically involved with him.

She did not care about the popular opinion that any Slytherin was only evil and she openly befriended Snape -- this is known because she tells Snape that her friends don't really know why she would even give him the time of day.

But was she a good friend?

IMO I feel a slight doubt with that aspect of her character. She knows that Snape could not antognize the Slytherins, or his life would have been miserable, seeing that he was not a pureblood and nor was he wallowing in money. But Snape not only befriends the said Slytherins like Avery and Mulciber but he also is attracted and almost addicted to the Dark Arts.

She also knows that he does not like muggles because of his father, most probably.

And she was very tolerant of everything.

But why did she leave him after the ultimatum she gave him? To her until then, Snape was almost as close as family and he was a very dear friend.

Like Hermione was to Harry... Or was Lily a friend like Hermione was to Harry I wonder.

She knew about the war and about how a death eater profession if I may call that would be... why did she not I wonder cool down after the ultimatum and talk to him, who was a big part of her life until then?

And another thing that struck me as odd was she tells him in the DH that she has been making excuses for him for years...

Now SWM happened at the end of their OWL year; that means end of the fifth year, 'making excuses for years' -- how many years? or was it just said in a fit of irritation.

Also the DH says there was no pity in her voice. She was cool and calm and collected is what I think it means -- well IMO not exactly best friends speech was it?

When I first read that scene in mild disbelief, I at once was drawn to another parallel of friendship that takes palce in the DH itself.

Hermione is going out with Ron who has at long last noticed her and STILL she choses to be with Harry even though Ron storms off accusing her of always choosing Harry over him.

In he OOTP Hermione and Ron don't shy away from Harry even when he screams at them, when he first comes to Grimmauld Place -- they are with Harry was this why Harry survived; Hermione also stays with Harry in the GOF when even Ron accuses Harry of putting his name in the goblet and stops talking to him-- she was Harry's true strength along with Ron and Harry won the war with Voldemort -- all because he had a better friend in Hermione IMO while Snape was unfortunate in his love and friendship, I wonder.

What kind of a friend was Lily? Does Jo say anything about this in any interview? I haven't read so if anyone knows... please reveal all...

She muct have sat in the Order and talked about Snape -- did it not affect her or did she not care at all by that time what ever happened to Snape? Could she wipe off her best friend like that?

He was a death eater but he was also brave enough to be friends with a muggleborn and apologize to her and seek her forgiveness. Why did she if not then, at least later after she had cooled down a bit talk seriously to Snape before decidding anything.

She did cut off completely, seeing that there seems to be no interaction between them after that.

I wonder about Lily Potter because this one aspect of her seems to me, IMO so much at odds with the rest of what we know about her.

And I won't say she was young and only a teenager because Snape was equally young and we don't make excuses for his addtcion and attraction to the Dark Arts or his choice of friends and neither do we excuse his 'mudblood' comment because he was only fifteen years old.

In he OOTP Hermione and Ron don't shy away from Harry even when he screams at them, when he first comes to Grimmauld Place -- they are with Harry was this why Harry survived; Hermione also stays with Harry in the GOF when even Ron accuses Harry of putting his name in the goblet and stops talking to him-- she was Harry's true strength along with Ron and Harry won the war with Voldemort -- all because he had a better friend in Hermione IMO while Snape was unfortunate in his love and friendship, I wonder.

What kind of a friend was Lily?
He was a death eater but he was also brave enough to be friends with a muggleborn and apologize to her and seek her forgiveness. Why did she if not then, at least later after she had cooled down a bit talk seriously to Snape before decidding anything.

She did cut off completely, seeing that there seems to be no interaction between them after that.

I wonder about Lily Potter because this one aspect of her seems to me, IMO so much at odds with the rest of what we know about her.



I think the distinction in the parallel you drew is that Hermionie was not attracted to the dark arts and acts and she didn't hang around with friends who had dark arts interests, including Voldemort. Due to this distinction, Lily's situation would be different and the issues she had to face would also be distinct. Thus, it was not a mere misunderstanding or difference of opinion that Lily faced with respect to her friend (like Ron, Hermione and Harry), but a difference in ideology, outlook and morality. Those are more hefty issues and must be dealt with accordingly imo.

Originally posted by wickedwickedboy
I think the distinction in the parallel you drew is that Hermionie was not attracted to the dark arts and acts and she didn't hang around with friends who had dark arts interests, including Voldemort. Due to this distinction, Lily's situation would be different and the issues she had to face would also be distinct. Thus, it was not a mere misunderstanding or difference of opinion that Lily faced with respect to her friend (like Ron, Hermione and Harry), but a difference in ideology, outlook and morality. Those are more hefty issues and must be dealt with accordingly imo.

Absolutely, and that was what led to my wondering how Lily could allow her first friend in the magical world and one she knows and here I am sure she knew that Snape cared very much for her; to simply let go.

I am assuming there were many arguments before where she tried to put her point across but I did get the feeling that she never ever warned him that he would stand to lose him if he did continued the way he was.

The moment Snape calls her a mudblood she not only issues an ultimatum but I am presuming here that she broke off her friendship with him once and for all when she tells him that he has choisen his way and she hers. That I honestly find baffling from a woman of her stature.

Hermione was not attracted to the dark arts -- but Harry had Voldemort in his brain and Hermione knew about a connection since fifth year. Something to be terrified of I would think.

In Harry's second year both Ron and Hermione stand by him when he speaks Parseltongue once again a dark trait. They were only twelve.

In his second year everyone was genuinely scared of Harry; he wopuld have collapsed had he not had his friends with him -- Snape collapsed IMO because his friend did not stay with him, at that time, a time that would destroy his entire life.

That was what got me pondering about Lily's character and I wondered if I had missed some statements of Lily Potter by JO.

I wonder if Harry had a facination to the dark arts would Hermione also give ultimatums? Ron might but somehow I cannot see Hermione in that scene.

Absolutely, and that was what led to my wondering how Lily could allow her first friend in the magical world and one she knows and here I am sure she knew that Snape cared very much for her; to simply let go.

I am assuming there were many arguments before where she tried to put her opinion across but I did get the opinion that she never ever warned him that he would stand to lose him if he did continued the way he was.

The moment Snape calls her a mudblood she not only issues an ultimatum but I am presuming here that she broke off her friendship with him once and for all when she tells him that he has choisen his way and she hers. That I honestly find baffling from a woman of her stature.

Hermione was not attracted to the dark arts -- but Harry had Voldemort in his brain and Hermione knew about a connection since fifth year. Something to be terrified of I would think.

In Harry's second year both Ron and Hermione stand by him when he speaks Parseltongue once again a dark trait. They were only twelve.

In his second year everyone was genuinely scared of Harry; he wopuld have collapsed had he not had his friends with him -- Snape collapsed IMO because his friend did not stay with him, at that time, a time that would destroy his entire life.

That was what got me pondering about Lily's character and I wondered if I had missed some statements of Lily Potter by JO.

I wonder if Harry had a facination to the dark arts would Hermione also give ultimatums? Ron might but somehow I cannot see Hermione in that scene.

I am not sure what your pondering exactly. Do you mean would Hermione give Harry an ultimatum if he called her a dirty little mudblood and was interested in dark arts and acts and planned to join Voldemort? I think Hermione would give Harry an ultimatum under those circumstances and I believe that is why Lily gave Snape one. :)

Originally posted by wickedwickedboy
I am not sure what your pondering exactly. Do you mean would Hermione give Harry an ultimatum if he called her a dirty little mudblood and was interested in dark arts and acts and planned to join Voldemort? I think Hermione would give Harry an ultimatum under those circumstances and I believe that is why Lily gave Snape one.

No, no, no, the comparison to Hermione was not the main point I wished to make. I am sorry if did sound that way...

But Hermione would probably take Harry to the cleaners, slap him hard and stop talking to him for some time but if he did come around begging for forgiveness I am sure she would relent and then tell him why this had to stop right then and there because otherwise it would mean that both of them would have to part ways...

I was wondering if Lily did tell Snape that he was making dangerous decisions and he would stand to lose her, because her opinion of the dark arts was so different to his.

Had she told him that she had made excuses for him for "YEARS" but now he had been so influenced by his Slytherin mates that he was calling her a mudblood -- and he would have to rethink a lot of things very soon, I wondered how Snape would have reacted to that...

There isn't anything in cannon to suggest she did, I think.

This discussion should better be in Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=111984). It would be refreshing to have more of Lily in there. :)

That was what got me pondering about Lily's character and I wondered if I had missed some statements of Lily Potter by JO.
We can't blame Lily for Snape's bad choices. The comparisons to Hermione and Harry are not entirely apt, since Harry wasn't hanging around with Jr. DEs, practicing Dark Magic, planning to join Voldemort, all the while using racial insults against others and finally Hermione, herself.

She apparently forgave him for his insults to Petunia, and she defended him for years to her schoolmates, that does show her character. Five full years.

She was also mature enough at age 15-16 to realize that she needed some big changes out of James before he would be considered dating material. She dropped her hints for James and he took them to heart. Snape did not.

I was wondering if Lily did tell Snape that he was making dangerous decisions and he would stand to lose her, because her opinion of the dark arts was so different to his.

Had she told him that she had made excuses for him for "YEARS" but now he had been so influenced by his Slytherin mates that he was calling her a mudblood -- and he would have to rethink a lot of things very soon, I wondered how Snape would have reacted to that...

There isn't anything in cannon to suggest she did, I think.
IMO, and this is something I've stated pleanty of times, I don't think we know enough about Lily, let alone her relationship with Sev. DH was the only book where I considered seeing Lily fully alive, but it's only from selected memories from Snape. It's still not enough in my opinion, to see how this character grew, what choices they made, and what they learned. My impression from DH along with the entire series was that she was an extraordinary girl who was loved by many (Slughorn, Petunia at one time, James, Sev...). I'm sure she had her own faults as any other fleshed out character in the series, but to me, there's still not enough we've been shown about her.

Originally posted by RavenStar83
IMO, and this is something I've stated pleanty of times, I don't think we know enough about Lily, let alone her relationship with Sev. DH was the only book where I considered seeing Lily fully alive, but it's only from selected memories from Snape. It's still not enough in my opinion, to see how this character grew, what choices they made, and what they learned. My impression from DH along with the entire series was that she was an extraordinary girl who was loved by many (Slughorn, Petunia at one time, James, Sev...). I'm sure she had her own faults as any other fleshed out character in the series, but to me, there's still not enough we've been shown about her.


Originally posted by comicbookworm
We can't blame Lily for Snape's bad choices. The comparisons to Hermione and Harry are not entirely apt, since Harry wasn't hanging around with Jr. DEs, practicing Dark Magic, planning to join Voldemort, all the while using racial insults against others and finally Hermione, herself.

She apparently forgave him for his insults to Petunia, and she defended him for years to her schoolmates, that does show her character. Five full years.

She was also mature enough at age 15-16 to realize that she needed some big changes out of James before he would be considered dating material. She dropped her hints for James and he took them to heart. Snape did not.

Yes we don't know enough about Lily but the books usually tell us the more important things and points of view -- like Lily telling Snape to get lost -- and the prelude to that being Snape calling her a mudblood.

We also see Lily not budging from her position and telling Snape that calling her a mudblood was the last straw. She also tells him that she is no longer interested and that she has made up her mind about this and that she will not be swayed.

The books tells gives us a general timeline.

So in that timeline Snape and Lily are over, finished and whatever was between them was also over after SWM. There is nothing in cannon to suggest that Lily even asked of him or even wondered what had happened to her first magical friend, her friend for so many years. She does not even express regret, he turned out this way, in the books.

That was why I compared her to Hermione. Hermione would have always given another chance. But Lily was not like Hermione who had been an introvert and a loner and whose first friend was Harry.

Had she been in Lily's position...

Yes, she too would have broken off first when Snape came to her common room in the night to apologize, and she would have told him off the same way Lily did, but she would have, IMO, surely talked very seriously to Snape later, maybe after a few days when she had cooled down and told him that if he could not stop his current ways he was going to lose her and that was that.

She would have also never got over the fact he became a death eater I think and might have even blamed herself for not seeing the signs before...

Lily; Jo equates with Ginny, who is an extrovert and she has a completely different make up.

Ginny would have also told Snape to get lost and she would have moved on without much thought...IMO

Ok, we can't start faulting characters by using straw man arguments about what we would have liked them to do (that wasn't in print) since that immediately sets them up to fail. We are all imaginative enough to come up with myriad scenarios that we would have wanted the characters to do that are not in print.

However, we do have canon for Lily trying to reason with Snape about his choices.This was not Lily's first time they had this discussion. That's easy to see from the way they parried and countered what each other said. It was the same cautions and concerns on Lily's part, and the same disregard or rationalizing on his part, all of which had been discussed before. By the time he called her a racial epithet he freely used on others, it was just the last straw.

Snape showed Harry the memories he needed to understand Snape's and Lily's relationship. He certainly didn't show him every memory since there was no time. All we saw was key points along the way, so Harry would understand how Snape became friends with her, and how he lost her friendship, and why he wanted to atone. Nor would Jo write repetitively with scene after scene of essentially the same argument, so we could be convinced that Lily really tried hard to get through, since that would have been tedious (and pointless).

Lily did forgive him for what he said and did to Petunia, and she had been making excuses for him for YEARS.

There was no literary mechanism to show Lily feeling regret over Snape. No other pensieves to read. Jo doesn't do flashbacks in the normal literary sense, so we can't know what Lily did or didn't feel since we never had access to her mind. And we certainly can't say that she felt no remorse just because it wasn't in print. She was a warm and compassionate woman. No doubt she did feel remorse, since they had been friends for quite a few years, but Snape was a lost cause due to his own failings, not hers.

Ok, we can't start faulting characters by using straw man arguments about what we would have liked them to (that wasn't in print) since that immediately sets them up to fail. We are all imaginative enough to come up with myriad scenarios that we would have wanted the characters to do that are not in print.

However, we do have canon for Lily trying to reason with Snape about his choices.This was not Lily's first time they had this discussion. That's easy to see from the way they parried and countered what each other said. It was the same cautions and concerns on Lily's part, and the same disregard or rationalizing on his that had been discussed before. By the time he called her a racial epithet he freely used on others, it was just the last straw.

Snape showed Harry the memories he needed to understand Snape's and Lily's relationship. He certainly didn't show him every memory since there was no time. All we saw was key points along the way, so Harry would understand how Snape became friends with her, and how he lost her friendship, and why he wanted to atone. Nor would Jo write repetitively with scene after scene of essentially the same argument, so we could be convinced that Lily really tried hard to get through, since that would have been tedious (and pointless).

Lily did forgive him for what he said and did to Petunia, and she had been making excuses for him for YEARS.

There was no literary mechanism to show Lily feeling regret over Snape. No other pensieves to read. Jo doesn't do flashbacks in the normal literary sense, so we can't know what Lily did or didn't feel since we never had access to her mind. And we certainly can't say that she felt no remorse just because it wasn't in print. She was a warm and compassionate woman. No doubt she did feel remorse, since they had been friends for quite a few years, but Snape was a lost cause due to his own failings, not hers.

I agree. I believe Lily had a very strong and compassionate nature. My impression was that she and Snape had spoken for years about was troubling to her about him. Perhaps Snape even tried to convince her to cultivate an interest in the dark arts and follow Voldemort with him.

Nonetheless, Lily was steadfast in her beliefs just as her friend was. In my opinion, she tried too long and too hard because it was not until 5th term that she ended the friendship and Snape's interests had apparently become quite strong prior to that.

Nonetheless, I think that event and the fact that she waited for James to mature before dating him shows her to be of strong character, sensitive intuition and intelligent foresight. While the movies are not canon, Lupin said that Lily saw the good in everyone in one scene and I think the little we know about from the books bears that out.

Lily seemed to work hard to cultivate and forward her friendships if possible - seeing the good and attempting to assist her friends with their shortcomings. But at the same time, she would have to deal with her own life, mature and grow and rectify her own shortcomings. Her plate was full, but I think she handled herself well in the end. :)

I suppose so. The mudblood term was one she would have fought against for years; five to be precise -- but other concerns would not have been an issue for either of them for *years* obviously because he was not a death eater at ten and eleven.

So death eater arguments would not have taken place between them for more than a year at the least and a year and a half at the maximuim. Before that Snape would have been far too young.

Sad, though that Snape could not see what he was losing by this.

Really sad.

The whole thing probably came to a head when he forgot himself and called her a mudblood.

Mudblood was the last straw, but she probably saw him getting close to the Jr. DEs and being drawn to the Dark Arts for a few years, at least.

Originally posted by ComicBookWorm
Mudblood was the last straw, but she probably saw him getting close to the Jr. DEs and being drawn to the Dark Arts for a few years, at least.

I respectfully disagree with you. Oh, you are right I feel about the mudblood comment but Snape was 15 in SWM when Lily breaks off her friendship with Snape.

For years he could not have been drawn to the death eater friends; that must have occured IMO in his fifth or at the very earliest fourth year. Even that seems too early for me.

Why not, they were in the same house all those years? They would have been the people he was closest to. Lucius was Prefect when Snape started at Hogwarts. He would have tried to influence all Slytherins as early as possible.

Sirius said that Snape came to Hogwarts knowing more curses than most seventh year students. Snape obviously made it his business to learn this stuff, early on.

This is Lily's thread, and she was not responsible for his bad choices, regardless of how much bad influence he was under. But as his friend, I'm sure she did discuss it with him.

No she was not responsible for Snape's action or indeed the action of any other, I only felt and still feel *years* for DE's friends may not be possible because they were only 15.

What Lily could not understand was Snape could not let go o his only ticket to recognition and acceptance in his House.IMO And I am not saying Snape was correct in his actions but that Lily failed to see the importance of this for Snape.

May be because she was young or may be IMO she did not understand the dynamics of Slytherin house or may be she felt she had had enough, for whatever reason she broke off.

But with that break with Lily, Snape's sanity also went and he had nothing to pull him this side and so went to the side that already had a strong hold on him.IMO

No she was not responsible for Snape's action or indeed the action of any other, I only felt and still feel *years* for DE's friends may not be possible because they were only 15.

What Lily could not understand was Snape could not let go o his only ticket to recognition and acceptance in his House.IMO And I am not saying Snape was correct in his actions but that Lily failed to see the importance of this for Snape.

May be because she was young or may be IMO she did not understand the dynamics of Slytherin house or may be she felt she had had enough, for whatever reason she broke off.

But with that break with Lily, Snape's sanity also went and he had nothing to pull him this side and so went to the side that already had a strong hold on him.IMO

I think that there is much left up to the imagination when it comes to Lily. She may have had to deal with Snape trying to convince her that the dark arts were good and joining Voldemort was the right way to go. Lily may have had a lot more pressure on her during the relationship than we know.

What we can know from canon is that the pressure certainly became too much for Lily in 5th term and that is why she ended her friendship with Snape. Lily was a very popular girl, and it is likely that she had other male friends during her years at Hogwarts. The comparison between her less stressful friendships with those boys could have also played a role in her determination that all friendships did not have to be accompanied by stress and conflict, imo.

I think by seventh year, Lily would have come to have certain expetations from her friends and those boys she dated in particular. Most people have normalized their expectations in that regard by 16 years old. I feel that is why she and James worked out well together; he was less wild than he'd been in his youth and I think Lily appreciated the changes that had come over him. Additionally Lily had had a crush on him for a while, so the recognition that he had evolved into a guy that she considered 'dating material', based on the expectations she'd formed, was likely a great source of comfort and happiness for her.

What Lily could not understand was Snape could not let go o his only ticket to recognition and acceptance in his House.IMO And I am not saying Snape was correct in his actions but that Lily failed to see the importance of this for Snape.

May be because she was young or may be IMO she did not understand the dynamics of Slytherin house or may be she felt she had had enough, for whatever reason she broke off.

If Lily did or didn't know, I don't think this would change her decision. The reason she broke the friendship off is because Snape was doing something morally wrong. We don't know if Snape ever tortured anyone or killed anyone, but the fact is he wanted to become a Death Eater. Why would Lily continue being friends with a person like that? I see her as a stubborn woman who values her morals highly. I don't think she would've ever let go of that choice if she understood that Snape needed to "fit in" with the Slytherin house.

I think by seventh year, Lily would have come to have certain expetations from her friends and those boys she dated in particular. Most people have normalized their expectations in that regard by 16 years old. I feel that is why she and James worked out well together; he was less wild than he'd been in his youth and I think Lily appreciated the changes that had come over him. Additionally Lily had had a crush on him for a while, so the recognition that he had evolved into a guy that she considered 'dating material', based on the expectations she'd formed, was likely a great source of comfort and happiness for her.

Well said, WWB! :tu: I always see James as open with his feelings and what he thinks, so during her years at Hogwarts, she may have heard him say how he abhors the Dark Arts and Voldemort's actions. If that's the case, I think Lily would have been impressed that James wasn't heartless. Later on she started dating him, they may have made the choice to join the Order and become full time fighters together. Lily was a really brave person, and I think the idea of fighting DEs would have appealed to her.

Also, with Voldemort's regime, Lily probably hated how Muggles and Muggleborns were being oppressed. I see Lily as being compassionate, and I think she felt righteous anger about the news of deaths and disappearances of Muggles and Muggleborns.

originally posted by The_Green_Woods
I respectfully disagree with you. Oh, you are right I feel about the mudblood comment but Snape was 15 in SWM when Lily breaks off her friendship with Snape.

For years he could not have been drawn to the death eater friends; that must have occured IMO in his fifth or at the very earliest fourth year. Even that seems too early for me.

Well, Sirius did say that Snape knew more hexes in his first year then the seventh years did. I think he was always interested in the dark arts, but he tried to hide that from Lily because she had such high morales, at least at first. We know he used mudblood on other people, but not on her until SWM.

And she said she'd been making excuses for him for years. The word excuses sounds to me like she was realizing for awhile that what he was up to was wrong, but she was so fond of him she came up with reasons for his behavior. Perhaps she thought she could influence him towards being a better person. She did, after all, see the good in others even when they couldn't see it in themselves (I agree with WWB here, I think that was very much how Lily was). But after making excuses for years, she was beginning to lose faith that he would change. They were having the same circular arguments and nothing was changing. Then he calls her a mudblood after she rushes to defend him from the hands of James. It was too much. He'd been heading down this path, and suddenly he as good as slaps her.

I'm sure Lily always regretted Snape becoming what he did. But in the end, it wasn't her decision, and she couldn't be expected to give up her morales just to stay friends with someone. She did what she had to do. It was probably very hard for her to turn her back on Snape, but I give her props for it. It shows strength of character to call out a close friend and then stick to it.

I think that Lily's a loyal friend cos she stuck with Snape all those years despite his involvement with the Dark Arts. She strikes me as very forgiving, from the way she never said anything bad about her sister despite all the jealousy and meanness. But she's most definitely brave, for having thwarted Lord V thrice. But maybe she SHOULD have forgiven Snape as a last-ditch attempt to save him from the clutches of the Dark Arts? Although I don't blame her about that, it makes me feel sorry for Snape.

It just isn't easy to make someone turn away from a dark path, no matter how hard one tries. I dated a guy who got deeper and deeper into hard drugs. I keep trying to keep him clean, but I found myself being dragged down with him. Eventually, I had to give up on him. The story is longer and much more convoluted, but I keep on trying despite multiple failures and dangers (both legal and physical--some to myself and my toddler daughter). I reached a point of no return and had to give up. I knew I was the only thing keeping him from going completely down the tube. But there was no other option.

There's two things we need to keep in mind about what Lily finally decided. The first is that she had tried, but could not budge him. Not only did we get that from the text, but Jo told us that, as well. And the second is that the plot demanded that he follow this dark path. We can't blame Lily for Snape's failings and poor choices. It's unfair to her. And IMO it's unrealistic given the plot itself.

It just isn't easy to make someone turn away from a dark path, no matter how hard one tries. I dated a guy who got deeper and deeper into hard drugs. I keep trying to keep him clean, but I found myself being dragged down with him. Eventually, I had to give up on him. The story is longer and much more convoluted, but I keep on trying despite multiple failures and dangers (both legal and physical--some to myself and my toddler daughter). I reached a point of no return and had to give up. I knew I was the only thing keeping him from going completely down the tube. But there was no other option.

There's two things we need to keep in mind about what Lily finally decided. The first is that she had tried, but could not budge him. Not only did we get that from the text, but Jo told us that, as well. And the second is that the plot demanded that he follow this dark path. We can't blame Lily for Snape's failings and poor choices. It's unfair to her. And IMO it's unrealistic given the plot itself.
I think there are many real life situations similar to the one Lily found herself in with Snape, and as you did, she tried, but in the end she just couldn't stop him. It was Snape's choice to follow the path he did, and we can't blame Lily for that. We know she did her best for him, but in the end she realised she couldn't stop him.

And yes, it was absolutely vital to the plot that Snape actually did become a Death Eater!

Originally posted by ComicBookWorm
It just isn't easy to make someone turn away from a dark path, no matter how hard one tries. I dated a guy who got deeper and deeper into hard drugs. I keep trying to keep him clean, but I found myself being dragged down with him. Eventually, I had to give up on him. The story is longer and much more convoluted, but I keep on trying despite multiple failures and dangers (both legal and physical--some to myself and my toddler daughter). I reached a point of no return and had to give up. I knew I was the only thing keeping him from going completely down the tube. But there was no other option.

There's two things we need to keep in mind about what Lily finally decided. The first is that she had tried, but could not budge him. Not only did we get that from the text, but Jo told us that, as well. And the second is that the plot demanded that he follow this dark path. We can't blame Lily for Snape's failings and poor choices. It's unfair to her. And IMO it's unrealistic given the plot itself.

You couldn't be more right and by this one post I think you have made me realize the parallels between HP and real life. I tend to forget that Jo has created all kinds of discrimination, choices and other issues in the books based on the real world and real life situations and as you said sometimes you have to even stop being the only hope to someone very dear or very close just so, you may save yourself.

Just that being a hard core Snape fan makes you faulty and blind to everyone who crossed his way and gave him grief :sigh:

You couldn't be more right and by this one post I think you have made me realize the parallels between HP and real life. I tend to forget that Jo has created all kinds of discrimination, choices and other issues in the books based on the real world and real life situations and as you said sometimes you have to even stop being the only hope to someone very dear or very close just so, you may save yourself.

Just that being a hard core Snape fan makes you faulty and blind to everyone who crossed his way and gave him grief :sigh:

The problem is, imo that is everyone in the series except Lucius and Narcissa - at least from Snape's point of view.

What your earlier commentary made me think of was Lily in relation to James Potter. She was crushing on him in 5th and apparently continued to do so through 7th when they got together. I wonder if she planned to make James Potter hers all along - much like Ginny and Harry. Lily was capable of making him jealous; she was very popular and many boys were attracted to her (JKR - Leaky/Mugglenet Interview 2005). I wonder if she dated quite a lot during 5th and 6th terms with an eye to helping James' to steady up a bit and see her in a more serious light.

Well to your post that Lily was crushing on James like Ginny, I really don't think so because of this comment by Jo.


Bloomsbury web chat after the DH
Jaclyn: Did lily ever have feelings back for Snape
J.K. Rowling: Yes. She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts.

This meant that Snape had a chance but he threw it away and not that Lily saw only James romantically. Though like you mentioned in an earlier post she may have started crushing on James around that time and when Snape also moved away Lily perhaps found James attractive more so than before.

Well to your post that Lily was crushing on James like Ginny, I really don't think so because of this comment by Jo.

This meant that Snape had a chance but he threw it away and not that Lily saw only James romantically. Though like you mentioned in an earlier post she may have started crushing on James around that time and when Snape also moved away Lily perhaps found James attractive more so than before.

I think that by fifth year, at least, she did have a crush on James. There are many things in SWM alone that suggest it. The most obvious one, in my opinion, is that she never adressed Sirius - only James. However, Sirius was doing just as much as James was with regards to hexing Snape. Her attention is pretty much only on James. Another obvious one is her near-smile - there are many ideas surrounding what caused it, but I personally believe it was because she grudgingly found James somewhat funny, like the rest of the crowd. She also seemed to pay close enough attention to James to realise his habits, like messing up his hair to look cool.

Then we see other memories, pre-SWM. This one particularly hinted at Lily's feelings for James:

'I'm just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.'
The intensity of his gaze made her blush.

Of course, it can be interpreted differently, but IMO, it was put in to hint at Lily liking James.

Then, in the Leaky/Mugglenet interview post-HBP, Melissa asked Jo:

MA: How did they get together? She hated James, from what we've seen.

JKR: Did she really? You're a woman, you know what I'm saying.

Well, I do know what she's saying! ;) You wouldn't believe how many times I've seen a girl complain about a guy and say she hates him, only to later admit she actually really likes him. And usually, the girl has one specific insult for said guy - Lily seemed to like to call James a toerag...


Anyways, when Jo said Lily could have come to love Snape romantically if he'd not been in love with the Dark Arts, I think she meant before Lily started liking James. I believe her feelings for James were strong enough to last through sixth year, when she could have easily fallen for someone else in the school, and then into seventh when she finally started dating James. I think she'd have to have fallen for Snape before her feelings for James. I hope that makes sense.

I love reading your posts LilyDreamsOn. They are always spot on :tu:

But I must say, I'm not quite sure what your saying about when Lily started liking James.

Just taking a stab; Lily started to like James as she started to distance herself from Snape in their friendship. Even when Lily no longer associated herself with Snape, she still was in the liking stage or maybe a bit more.

I don't think that she ever had romantic feelings for Snape, only that she felt a strong friendship with him, because he was her first contact with the wizarding world, in some ways her first guide into coming to know and understand this whole new world.

It is because of this that she felt a sense of loyalty to Snape and why she would forgive him for hurting Petunia (who wasn't the greatest sister in the world), standing up to those that questioned her associating with him etc. It is also why she kept standing up for him and trying to get him to stop being a "fore-runner for a DE".

Sure it could have been more, if Snape had clued on and stopped being an "fore-runner for a DE", but Snape didn't seem to get it. :shrug:

I agree with Latisha, I love your posts LilyDreamsOn! :)

I think Lily started to develop romantic feelings for James around fifth year as well. She was probably attracted to how bold and charismatic he was. And I'm sure his sense of humor made her crack a smile once in a while.

Other than those two qualities about James, I think Lily had a feeling that deep down James wasn't all that bad. James seemed so outspoken to me, I wouldn't be surprised if he did some of the things Harry did, such as defending his friends. It showed the deep loyalty James held for his friends. He remained loyal to his friends, something most people find admirable. Furthermore, he was a pureblood who hated the Dark Arts and Voldemort's regime. The fact that he never cared about peoples' blood was something she, of all people, must have liked about James since she was the target of derogatory slurs. Compared to other bullies in her year, such as Mulciber and Avery, I think Lily realized that James would never go as far as they would.

The biggest eye-opener for Lily is, IMO, the werewolf incident. I always imagine Lily was shocked when she found out what James did. James saving his enemy's life? I think when she found out she understood that James wasn't only an "arrogant toerag," but also a person with a good heart.

That whole spiel Lily had about everything wrong with James makes me think she kept her green eyes on James Potter. ;) If this is the case, I think she knew that James was a good person inside, and with a bit of maturity he may become a better person. In the end, she was right!

The most obvious one, in my opinion, is that she never adressed Sirius - only James. However, Sirius was doing just as much as James was with regards to hexing Snape. Her attention is pretty much only on James.

LilyDreamsOn- I agree that your posts are always fantastic:love:You have very interesting views on Lily and the marauders- and I love reading them!

I too have always found it curious that Lily only chastises James in that scene and does not scold Sirius- he too was picking on Snape, but she settles on giving him a cold look while she creates a litany of James' faults. I like your conclusion and agree that Lily probably found James very attractive- they were quite compatible, in my opinion.

I always took the statement that Lily could have grown to love Snape romantically in a pretty broad way- A Snape who didn't love dark magic was a completely different person, and I still feel that Lily would have loved James more- Jo refers to him as "the love of her life"- not just one of her romantic partners.

I find it amazing that by the mere age of fifteen, Lily was able to say "You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine"- she knew that she wanted to fight Voldemort, and in James she found someone who shared her own core beliefs and hatred for the dark arts.

-LilyPod

I too have always found it curious that Lily only chastises James in that scene and does not scold Sirius- he too was picking on Snape, but she settles on giving him a cold look while she creates a litany of James' faults. I like your conclusion and agree that Lily probably found James very attractive- they were quite compatible, in my opinion.

Same with me. In HBP, Harry has to copy the detention cards and says that most of the detentions had James and Sirius joined together. Sirius did pretty much everything James did, but why didn't Lily say anything? She was probably trying to convince herself to not like James when listing everything wrong with him.

I also agree that Lily was compatible with James. A lot of people see them as opposites, but I see them as having a lot in common, actually. In DH, Lily uses magic even though Petunia tells her that her mother said not to. I guess Harry got his disregard for rules from both parents! Lily strikes me as being independent, stubborn, forgiving, and loyal - all qualities which I associate with James as well. I wouldn't go so far as to say they're exactly the same, but they definitely shared qualities that gave them a deep appreciation and understanding for one another. That's just my opinion, of course.

I too have always found it curious that Lily only chastises James in that scene and does not scold Sirius- he too was picking on Snape, but she settles on giving him a cold look while she creates a litany of James' faults. I like your conclusion and agree that Lily probably found James very attractive- they were quite compatible, in my opinion.

I always took the statement that Lily could have grown to love Snape romantically in a pretty broad way- A Snape who didn't love dark magic was a completely different person, and I still feel that Lily would have loved James more- Jo refers to him as "the love of her life"- not just one of her romantic partners.

I find it amazing that by the mere age of fifteen, Lily was able to say "You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine"- she knew that she wanted to fight Voldemort, and in James she found someone who shared her own core beliefs and hatred for the dark arts.

Brilliant post :tu: Again, I totally agree with you. She was so mature at such a young age, it kind of reminds me of Harry. Her complete loyalty to her friends is a major aspect of both Lily and James characters and the choice to fight against LV would have made them the perfect couple, hence the reason why her patronus as the perfect mate for Prongs. ;)

Brilliant post :tu: Again, I totally agree with you. She was so mature at such a young age, it kind of reminds me of Harry. Her complete loyalty to her friends is a major aspect of both Lily and James characters and the choice to fight against LV would have made them the perfect couple, hence the reason why her patronus as the perfect mate for Prongs. ;)


Thank you! *Blushes* Sirius fangirls think alike!;)

I too feel that James and Lily were the perfect match- and their patronuses show that. I also feel very strongly that Lily's patronus changed when she fell for James, because his animagus is a stag, and that is permanent.

Since DH came out, I have often, often heard this statement: "Just think- if Snape hadn't become a Death Eater, he would have been Harry's dad!"

I really, really disagree that Lily would have chosen Snape as a lifelong partner or that he was a good match for her- when she obviously disliked bullying behaviors and I feel it would be out of character for her to choose a partner who disliked children. She seems like a very loving, nuturing type to me:)

-LilyPod

Oooh, thanks a lot, guys! :blush:


I always took the statement that Lily could have grown to love Snape romantically in a pretty broad way- A Snape who didn't love dark magic was a completely different person, and I still feel that Lily would have loved James more- Jo refers to him as "the love of her life"- not just one of her romantic partners.

Yes, I agree. I found it to be too big a What If?, really. Imagining a Snape who doesn't love the Dark Arts is like imagining a Lily who does love them - it just changes too much to be plausible. So given the characters of Snape and Lily, I don't think there would have been any scenario where Lily would have fallen in love with him - their morals were too different. I think Lily put a lot of importance on morality ("but you call everyone else of my birth Mudblood, why should I be any different?"), and wouldn't have been able to put up with the stuff Snape did - which, as we saw, was what happened. I really admire Lily for being able to see the story from both sides and realise the friendship was unhealthy.


I also agree that Lily was compatible with James. A lot of people see them as opposites, but I see them as having a lot in common, actually. In DH, Lily uses magic even though Petunia tells her that her mother said not to. I guess Harry got his disregard for rules from both parents! Lily strikes me as being independent, stubborn, forgiving, and loyal - all qualities which I associate with James as well. I wouldn't go so far as to say they're exactly the same, but they definitely shared qualities that gave them a deep appreciation and understanding for one another. That's just my opinion, of course.

I agree - I've always seen them as pretty similar, too. Lily was quite adventurous herself (which is obviously a trait she shares with James) - she explored her magical abilities before she even knew what they were, even when she was told not to do so, and she joined the Order when she was merely 18 years old, fighting on the front lines against the Death Eaters and Voldemort. I think she liked a good thrill (lol) and that's something she would definitely get with James - the marauding little rebel. :)

She was so mature at such a young age, it kind of reminds me of Harry. Her complete loyalty to her friends is a major aspect of both Lily and James characters and the choice to fight against LV would have made them the perfect couple, hence the reason why her patronus as the perfect mate for Prongs.

Yeah, she definitely was mature for her age. I'm sure a lot of that had to do with the war, and the fact that she was a Muggleborn in a rather prejudiced society. Though I believe she would have fought against Voldemort even if she'd been a pureblood and safe from the Death Eaters - she didn't seem like the kind of person who could just sit around and watch others fight for good.

Aaah, when it was revealed that her Patronous was a doe, I couldn't help but smile. :)


Since DH came out, I have often, often heard this statement: "Just think- if Snape hadn't become a Death Eater, he would have been Harry's dad!"

I really, really disagree that Lily would have chosen Snape as a lifelong partner or that he was a good match for her- when she obviously disliked bullying behaviors and I feel it would be out of character for her to choose a partner who disliked children. She seems like a very loving, nuturing type to me

Eeeeh, I agree with you. If Snape hadn't been into the Dark Arts, who's to say Lily would have fallen in love with him? There were other guys in Hogwarts, many of whom I'm sure fancied Lily (she was popular) so it wouldn't have been a decision between just Snape and James. She picked James out of all the other guys - that's enough to tell me there was something about James that stood out to her, and I feel she would have recognized those things even if Snape hadn't been into the Dark Arts.

Thank you! *Blushes* Sirius fangirls think alike!;)

:blush: I'll take that as a definate compliment :angel:

I too feel that James and Lily were the perfect match- and their patronuses show that. I also feel very strongly that Lily's patronus changed when she fell for James, because his animagus is a stag, and that is permanent.

Exactly, some may say that it's a bit cheesy, but I think that it's really sweet and perfect.

Since DH came out, I have often, often heard this statement: "Just think- if Snape hadn't become a Death Eater, he would have been Harry's dad!"

I really, really disagree that Lily would have chosen Snape as a lifelong partner or that he was a good match for her- when she obviously disliked bullying behaviors and I feel it would be out of character for her to choose a partner who disliked children. She seems like a very loving, nuturing type to me:)

Same here. Lily knew the kind of person that Snape was from the beginning and even then she didn't agree with it, but her through her great loyalty to her friend (Snape), she stuck by him, but still told him that she didn't think that it was right.

I can't see Lily ever fully agreeing or accepting the "otherside" of Snape and being romantically involved with him enough to marry him, let alone have kids with him. Her strong character would not have allowed it. It just would not have worked, much like Harry and Cho. The essence of the two would never have been harmonious enough for Lily to be happy to settle down.

Which brings us to another characteristic of hers. She was a bit of a perfectionist. Even with James, she wanted until he was mature enough before she even agreed to go out with him. Now that's one lady that knows exactly what she wants.

Yeah, she definitely was mature for her age. I'm sure a lot of that had to do with the war, and the fact that she was a Muggleborn in a rather prejudiced society. Though I believe she would have fought against Voldemort even if she'd been a pureblood and safe from the Death Eaters - she didn't seem like the kind of person who could just sit around and watch others fight for good.

Aaah, when it was revealed that her Patronous was a doe, I couldn't help but smile.:)

As LilyPod said before. "Great minds think alike" :D

originally posted by Latisha
Same here. Lily knew the kind of person that Snape was from the beginning and even then she didn't agree with it, but her through her great loyalty to her friend (Snape), she stuck by him, but still told him that she didn't think that it was right.

I can't see Lily ever fully agreeing or accepting the "otherside" of Snape and being romantically involved with him enough to marry him, let alone have kids with him. Her strong character would not have allowed it. It just would not have worked, much like Harry and Cho. The essence of the two would never have been harmonious enough for Lily to be happy to settle down.


Agreed. When Jo said they may have been romantically involved, that doesn't mean she would've married Snape. Harry and Cho, Ron and Lavender, Ginny and Dean, are all couples that were romantically involved but didn't make it to marriage (and might I add a thank goodness :))

It's hard to speculate to what extent they would've been involved, since a Snape without Dark Arts is Epans (Snape backwards...ok blame the Halloween candy). Lily might've decided she liked Snape/Epans enough to date him, but in the end, she would still have fallen for James. They are soulmates, and that doesn't change just because some one had a personality transplant. There was something about James that Lily fell for, and that was never in Snape.


Which brings us to another characteristic of hers. She was a bit of a perfectionist. Even with James, she wanted until he was mature enough before she even agreed to go out with him. Now that's one lady that knows exactly what she wants.


Yet another quality to admire about her. :)

originally posted by LilyDreamsOn
Aaah, when it was revealed that her Patronous was a doe, I couldn't help but smile

Me too. I had wondered if the doe was her's when I first read it, but I couldn't figure out how Lily's patronus would've shown up. Although, is it her patronus or her stag form? Because the doe patronus is Snape's, like Harry's is of James, but James' patronus probably wasn't a stag.

Either way, soulmates. :love:

Me too. I had wondered if the doe was her's when I first read it, but I couldn't figure out how Lily's patronus would've shown up. Although, is it her patronus or her stag form? Because the doe patronus is Snape's, like Harry's is of James, but James' patronus probably wasn't a stag.

Either way, soulmates. :love:

JKR actually said that James' patronus was a stag and Lily's was a doe showing their love for one another.

JKR actually said that James' patronus was a stag and Lily's was a doe showing their love for one another.

That is so beautiful, it brings a tear to your eye doesn't it. :)

Ok, we can't start faulting characters by using straw man arguments about what we would have liked them to do (that wasn't in print) since that immediately sets them up to fail. We are all imaginative enough to come up with myriad scenarios that we would have wanted the characters to do that are not in print.

However, we do have canon for Lily trying to reason with Snape about his choices.This was not Lily's first time they had this discussion. That's easy to see from the way they parried and countered what each other said. It was the same cautions and concerns on Lily's part, and the same disregard or rationalizing on his part, all of which had been discussed before. By the time he called her a racial epithet he freely used on others, it was just the last straw.

Snape showed Harry the memories he needed to understand Snape's and Lily's relationship. He certainly didn't show him every memory since there was no time. All we saw was key points along the way, so Harry would understand how Snape became friends with her, and how he lost her friendship, and why he wanted to atone. Nor would Jo write repetitively with scene after scene of essentially the same argument, so we could be convinced that Lily really tried hard to get through, since that would have been tedious (and pointless).

Lily did forgive him for what he said and did to Petunia, and she had been making excuses for him for YEARS.

There was no literary mechanism to show Lily feeling regret over Snape. No other pensieves to read. Jo doesn't do flashbacks in the normal literary sense, so we can't know what Lily did or didn't feel since we never had access to her mind. And we certainly can't say that she felt no remorse just because it wasn't in print. She was a warm and compassionate woman. No doubt she did feel remorse, since they had been friends for quite a few years, but Snape was a lost cause due to his own failings, not hers.


I would have agree with you if Snape had not been remorseful of what he had said to Lily. But he had been. He had been very remorseful. Yet, Lily was inable to forgive him. And I found that rather hard. And judging from what happened to Snape years later, he did not turn out to be the LOST CAUSE that she - a fifteen year-old - had assumed him to be.


Agreed. When Jo said they may have been romantically involved, that doesn't mean she would've married Snape. Harry and Cho, Ron and Lavender, Ginny and Dean, are all couples that were romantically involved but didn't make it to marriage (and might I add a thank goodness )

Why would you say "thank goodness" in the first place? We've all seen how the Harry/Cho and Ron/Lavender relationship had become so disasterous. But I don't think we really know much about the Ginny/Dean pairing to make such a comment.

I would be thrilled if we could look into other facets of Lily's life for a little while. Snape and Lily's relationship can be and is being discussed in Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=111984). Let's look at question two and three of the opening post. :)

# Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
# Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

Not a problem Moriath

# Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

I really do think that Lily tried, so I don't think so. Whatever Lily did to try and make progress with Petunia's jealousy would have been undone everytime Lily went away again for another year at her wizarding school.

Petunia seemed to be used to getting things her way, which I guess is why it really stung her that she couldn't be there with her sister, in a wonderfully, exciting new world. I do still think that Petunia loved her sister, but was unable to get over her jealousy.

Lily would have kept in touch I guess hoping that maybe time would soften Petunia after numerous failed attempts, but I guess time ran out and Lily was killed. The hate just kept breeding from there as Harry was a constant reminder of the world Petunia never saw and what had taken away her sister.

# Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

I can't imagine her having shallow friends, Lily seemed to admire substance over looks, popularity, etc. I'd like to think that she had a range of friends, much like Harry. :D

originally posted by wickedwickedboy
JKR actually said that James' patronus was a stag and Lily's was a doe showing their love for one another

Thank you for clearing that up for me!

*sigh* So sweet!


Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

I don't know. I'm sure Lily tried to bridge that gap. But it seems like Petunia's hatred of "that awful boy" (sorry to bring him up again :blush:) and her jealously of Lily's new world was just too much to overcome for her. It must have been very hard on her, Lily was going off into this new world (which in itself is exciting) but the only other wizard they knew wasn't exactly nice to her. Maybe she feared that Lily would be like Snape and would come back snobby and look down on her for not being a witch. So she's afraid Lily will look down on her and she's jealous. So she fights back by looking down on Lily before Lily can do it first.

Poor Lily. She was off having fun, while Petunia spent all year convincing herself that Lily was a freak and that she shouldn't be nice to her. She'd only be home for a few months, which just wasn't enough time to bridge the gap.

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

I think she would've had friends who were similar to either herself or James. They would've had great senses of humor, be loyal, and brave. Maybe she had one friend who was as stubborn as she was. Then, I think she would've had a friend or two to balance that out. If Lily had a good work ethic (I think she did), she had a friend or two who were like Ron and Harry and couldn't be worked up about exams. Lily probably had a friend who was more relaxed and a go-with-the-flow kind of person. And they were probably just as popular as she was. Maybe she had a friend on the Quidditch team, which would've given her a chance to watch practices and observe James without being obvious ;)

It must have been very hard on her, Lily was going off into this new world (which in itself is exciting) but the only other wizard they knew wasn't exactly nice to her.

I never looked at it that way. I guess the letter she wrote to Dumbledore seemed to me like she was used to getting her way, a bit like Dudley when he and Harry were young.

But I agree, Lily doesn't seem the type to just let a relationship go because it's hit a snag. She seems like the type to keep trying, as we see in her friendship with Snape.

Maybe she had a friend on the Quidditch team, which would've given her a chance to watch practices and observe James without being obvious ;).

:rotfl: Maybe. :lol:

I seem to picture her as not bothering to go unless forced to as she didn't want to be obvious, because she knew she found him irritatingly (don't know if that's a word :lol:) attractive. :relax:

originally posted by Latisha
I never looked at it that way. I guess the letter she wrote to Dumbledore seemed to me like she was used to getting her way, a bit like Dudley when he and Harry were young.


Hmm, I never looked at it that way either. I suppose that could be part of it, I always thought the letter she sent was purely because she wanted to go too, and was a bit jealous of what Lily could do. But your right, part of it could've been that she was used to getting her way and figured that in sending a letter, she would.


I seem to picture her as not bothering to go unless forced to as she didn't want to be obvious, because she knew she found him irritatingly (don't know if that's a word :lol:) attractive. :relax:

Well, if she had a friend on the team, she could go and say she was supporting her and no one would suspect her of ulterior motives. :eyebrows:

Well, if she had a friend on the team, she could go and say she was supporting her and no one would suspect her of ulterior motives. :eyebrows:

I could imagine that as well. And if a Quidditch match came up, she'd have some omnioculars in her hands so she can pay attention to a certain Chaser. . . .

Haha, exactly. I wonder what other times Lily would've been watching James. It's clear from her tirade of all his faults that she's been observing him quite a bit, but not all of that is evident on the Quidditch pitch.

# Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
# Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

Lily woud have in a heartbeat, but I think Petunia's jealousy never went away from the moment she knew Lily was a witch and she wasn't.

Many friends, I would think. She was brave enough to be friends with Snape who was in Slytherin and that aspect of her character would have mde her a good friend.

*sigh* though I really wish she has forgiven Snape....

I'm sure she has forgiven Snape by now. If James and Lily were watching Harry, then they knew what Snape was really about. Lily has surely forgiven him and James might even be grateful enough to move past his grudge.

Originally posted by dweaselqueen
I'm sure she has forgiven Snape by now. If James and Lily were watching Harry, then they knew what Snape was really about. Lily has surely forgiven him and James might even be grateful enough to move past his grudge.

I cetainly hope so and also that in his after life Snape has found a little of the peace that eluded him while alive. And I hope that Lily watching all that he had done for the love he had for her that he had never forgotten, would make amends with him and renew her friendship with him.

I cetainly hope so and also that in his after life Snape has found a little of the peace that eluded him while alive. And I hope that Lily watching all that he had done for the love he had for her that he had never forgotten, would make amends with him and renew her friendship with him.

Imo, neither James nor Lily would ever forgive Snape for the way he treated their child or the fact that he'd sent Voldemort after a newborn child and his family. Harry is a special person in his capacity for forgiveness, but I think there are few others equally forgiving. Unless forgiveness is a natural consequence of the afterlife, I think they would remain on non-speaking terms for eternity. But that is just my personal view of course.

Imo, neither James nor Lily would ever forgive Snape for the way he treated their child or the fact that he'd sent Voldemort after a newborn child and his family. Harry is a special person in his capacity for forgiveness, but I think there are few others equally forgiving. Unless forgiveness is a natural consequence of the afterlife, I think they would remain on non-speaking terms for eternity. But that is just my personal view of course.

Same here. I can just visualize Lily cracking Snape over the head with a copper pot like Kreacher's. As a mother myself, I would never forgive a man who mistreated my child so callously.

^That is true. I was just thinking that she could've forgiven him when she saw that Snape had actually turned from the DE track after all, but she would never have forgiven him for his treatment of Harry, and neither would James.

Actually, there might've been some seriously mixed feelings. He treats Harry horribly, and then he saves him from Quirrel. He treats Harry more horribly, and then he sends the Order after him in OotP. Lily at least would be a little grateful that he tried to save their son, but then horrified at how he treats him the rest of the time.

Originally posted by dweaselqueen
Actually, there might've been some seriously mixed feelings. He treats Harry horribly, and then he saves him from Quirrel. He treats Harry more horribly, and then he sends the Order after him in OotP. Lily at least would be a little grateful that he tried to save their son, but then horrified at how he treats him the rest of the time.

I hope Lily would be able to understand that Snape from the moment Voldemort died was preparing for him to come back again.

While he was pretty sadistic -- he just could not show goodness to the BWL. He had to make sure that everyone knew he hated Harry and also make sure that everyone also knew that Harry hated him.

Voldemort would otherwise be suspicious of Snape thinking that he was with the Light because he was loyal not to Voldemort but to the son of the woman he loved.

He would have never been accepted into the Inner Circle and would have never been in a position to spy so deeply for the Order otherwise.

I would hope Lily would see this and brush his bitterness that was of his own making and understand that much as this man disliked James Potter's son, he still died for Lily's boy.

Haha, exactly. I wonder what other times Lily would've been watching James. It's clear from her tirade of all his faults that she's been observing him quite a bit, but not all of that is evident on the Quidditch pitch.
I imagine the Marauders were hard not to notice, in lessons and in the Gryffindor common room! James and Sirius were exuberant and outgoing and probably got a lot of attention all round. We know they were very popular. I imagine Lily would have found this irritating, given that she was not only attracted to James, but also disapproved of his hexing people!

I hope Lily would be able to understand that Snape from the moment Voldemort died was preparing for him to come back again.

While he was pretty sadistic -- he just could not show goodness to the BWL. He had to make sure that everyone knew he hated Harry and also make sure that everyone also knew that Harry hated him.

Voldemort would otherwise be suspicious of Snape thinking that he was with the Light because he was loyal not to Voldemort but to the son of the woman he loved.

He would have never been accepted into the Inner Circle and would have never been in a position to spy so deeply for the Order otherwise.

I would hope Lily would see this and brush his bitterness that was of his own making and understand that much as this man disliked James Potter's son, he still died for Lily's boy.


I respect your view, however, one thing to keep in mind is that Snape did not only dislike James Potter's son (Lily's son), he also disliked James Potter (Lily's husband). She loved them both dearly. I believe, based on Lily's character, that she would be deeply appreciative of the efforts of Dumbledore, Sirius, Remus, Ron, Hermione, Kingsley, Molly, Arthur, Hagrid, The Weasley kids, Neville, Luna and everyone else whose efforts and risks assisted in protecting her son, saving his life and allowing him to complete a mission he was born for - including Snape, Narcissa and Draco - whose efforts were tremendous considering their loathing for her son. However, on a personal level, it is not realistic, imo, that she would overlook the way that Snape, Narcissa and Draco treated her child, especially in light of their motives. (i.e., she wouldn't value Snape's emotions more simply because they were for her - in comparison to Narcissa's emotions that were for Draco - both of whom acted on Harry's behalf).

Lily is loved by many and the addition of the romantic element to Snape's emotions for her, imo, would not affect her determination about him in particular. Thus, she would recall everything and imo, there is only so much a mother could be asked to forgive. Thankfulness/gratitude is another thing altogether, imo, I think she would have that for all who assisted Harry - friend or foe.

I agree. But Lily did have a special relation with Snape that she did not have with the others except, Sirius, Remus and DD. So I did think she would be able to overlook his behavoiur which was not anything to speak about at the best of times and would have looked past all that for a man who was instrumental in getting into Voldy's strongehold and spy for so long. He was the one who turned the war in favour of the Light and won the war with his efforts that continued until he died.

Hmm, I never looked at it that way either. I suppose that could be part of it, I always thought the letter she sent was purely because she wanted to go too, and was a bit jealous of what Lily could do. But your right, part of it could've been that she was used to getting her way and figured that in sending a letter, she would.

No, I totally agree with you there. A bit jealous, though I'd say really jealous as she'd say hurtful things to Lily like calling her a freak, all because she herself couldn't go.

Well, if she had a friend on the team, she could go and say she was supporting her and no one would suspect her of ulterior motives.:eyebrows:

:lol: In that case I agree. I think that's it's even possible that this may have been when Snape grudgingly realised that Lily could actually have feelings for James. He did afterall know her better at the time then her other friends and we know that he liked to keep an eye on her whenever possible. :evil:

I could imagine that as well. And if a Quidditch match came up, she'd have some omnioculars in her hands so she can pay attention to a certain Chaser. . . .

:elaugh: I wouldn't have been surprised... Snape worrying about Lily's attraction to James had to come from somewhere and labelling him a Quidditch hero must have come from where :eyebrows:

Same here. I can just visualize Lily cracking Snape over the head with a copper pot like Kreacher's. As a mother myself, I would never forgive a man who mistreated my child so callously.

Hear! Hear! Couldn't have put it better myself.

While he was pretty sadistic -- he just could not show goodness to the BWL. He had to make sure that everyone knew he hated Harry and also make sure that everyone also knew that Harry hated him.

But he never had to hide the fact from Dumbledore did he. I don't believe for a second that he had any feelings for Harry at all, which he himself declares as well!

But Lily did have a special relation with Snape that she did not have with the others except, Sirius, Remus and DD. So I did think she would be able to overlook his behavoiur which was not anything to speak about at the best of times and would have looked past all that for a man who was instrumental in getting into Voldy's strongehold and spy for so long. He was the one who turned the war in favour of the Light and won the war with his efforts that continued until he died.

But don't you see, that is what would have made it unforgivable was his treatment of Harry, her own flesh and blood. She would have forgiven him for somethings, but their relationship as children would never happen again as for someone to hurt your child is like a stab in your heart and as a mother I know!

Same here. I can just visualize Lily cracking Snape over the head with a copper pot like Kreacher's. As a mother myself, I would never forgive a man who mistreated my child so callously.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Yeah, me too!

Realistically, I think every person/character has their limits, and Lily, being the amazing and loving and devoted mother that she is, would simply find Snape's actions inexcusable. I don't think she ever forgave him for targeting her family, having a cold attitude toward sending her husband and son to their deaths, and bullying her child for six years. IMO, it really cheapens her character to have her sacrifice respect for James and Harry for the sake of a childhood friendship.

But that's just my two cents.

-LilyPod

originally posted by LilyPod
Realistically, I think every person/character has their limits, and Lily, being the amazing and loving and devoted mother that she is, would simply find Snape's actions inexcusable. I don't think she ever forgave him for targeting her family, having a cold attitude toward sending her husband and son to their deaths, and bullying her child for six years. IMO, it really cheapens her character to have her sacrifice respect for James and Harry for the sake of a childhood friendship

Agreed. I do not believe she would be able to over look his treatment of Harry and James for the fact that he saved Harry during a Quidditch match. Or everything else he did. It's great that he did it, but his treatment of Harry is inexcusable. If he treated Harry that way purely to maintain his cover it would be one thing, but Snape truly loathed Harry. He did it out of spite, he saw Harry only as James part 2 and treated him the way he did because of what James did to him in school. Lily would not appreciate that. James at least was able to mature over the years, he may even have grown to get over the grudge like Lupin did if he'd lived long enough. But Snape was a grudging sort of person and was never able to put it behind him and that carried over to his treatment of Harry.

And Lily's supposed to forgive him for behaving like a schoolboy? I don't think so.

While he was pretty sadistic -- he just could not show goodness to the BWL. He had to make sure that everyone knew he hated Harry and also make sure that everyone also knew that Harry hated him. Voldemort would otherwise be suspicious of Snape thinking that he was with the Light because he was loyal not to Voldemort but to the son of the woman he loved. He would have never been accepted into the Inner Circle and would have never been in a position to spy so deeply for the Order otherwise.He could have been indifferent. He could have been inattentive. Or he could have treated Harry decently and easily told Voldemort it was all an act to fool Dumbledore.

From my perspective, this whole idea that Snape was only pretending to be mean to Harry is just a way of trying to explain away what was obviously nasty treatment. But we have his treatment of Harry and others in print in every book. And then we also have several comments by Jo after DH confirming that Snape hated Harry. Between what is actually in print, and what Jo has told us, I feel rather strongly that his behavior was plain nasty.

And I can't see Lily forgiving him for that. I'm a mother and I know I wouldn't. I might do just as Harry did, which is acknowledge the good that Snape did. But that wouldn't erase the bad. And IMO, Lily would not be pleased with the way Snape treated her orphan son--a child that he was supposed to be protecting.

From my perspective this whole idea that Snape was only pretending to be mean to Harry is just a way of trying to explain away what was obviously nasty treatment. But we have his treatment of Harry and others in print in every book. And then we also have several comments by Jo after DH confirming that Snape hated Harry. Between what is actually in print, and what Jo has told us, I feel rather strongly that his behavior was plain nasty.

I'm amazed at how many actually believe this and it always makes me wonder where is the canon to back this theory? So far, I'm still waiting. :lol:

From my perspective, this whole idea that Snape was only pretending to be mean to Harry is just a way of trying to explain away what was obviously nasty treatment. But we have his treatment of Harry and others in print in every book. And then we also have several comments by Jo after DH confirming that Snape hated Harry. Between what is actually in print, and what Jo has told us, I feel rather strongly that his behavior was plain nasty.

And I can't see Lily forgiving him for that. I'm a mother and I know I wouldn't. I might do just as Harry did, which is acknowledge the good that Snape did. But that wouldn't erase the bad. And IMO, Lily would not be pleased with the way Snape treated her orphan son--a child that he was supposed to be protecting.


I agree. There is forgiveness and then there is turning a blind eye. Lily was a mother who was forced to watch her son from afar. First, he suffers for 9 years at the hands of the Dursleys. Then he goes to Hogwarts where he is under the care of Dumbledore, and Lily's former best friend. And how is he treated? Horribly from day one.

Lily would have to turn a blind eye to the fact that her best friend treated Harry like hippogrif fodder. She may be forgiving, but no one is that forgiving. Snape would have to work in the afterlife to get her approval again.

He could have been indifferent. He could have been inattentive. Or he could have treated Harry decently and easily told Voldemort it was all an act to fool Dumbledore.

From my perspective, this whole idea that Snape was only pretending to be mean to Harry is just a way of trying to explain away what was obviously nasty treatment. But we have his treatment of Harry and others in print in every book. And then we also have several comments by Jo after DH confirming that Snape hated Harry. Between what is actually in print, and what Jo has told us, I feel rather strongly that his behavior was plain nasty.

And I can't see Lily forgiving him for that. I'm a mother and I know I wouldn't. I might do just as Harry did, which is acknowledge the good that Snape did. But that wouldn't erase the bad. And IMO, Lily would not be pleased with the way Snape treated her orphan son--a child that he was supposed to be protecting.
It's possible to forgive an awful lot, but it's almost impossible for a mother to forgive someone who treats her child badly. It's that same maternal protective instinct that made Lily block an Avada Kedavra curse with her own body, even though she had no idea that this would save Harry (it was logical to assume that Voldemort would step over her dead body and kill Harry anyway).

Welcome to the post-DH discussion of Lily Potter. Previous discussion without spoilers can be found here: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=96591)



So now we know why Lily's Green eyes were so important! A lot of things have fallen into place and questions have been answered.....which means plenty for discussion!


Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.
According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

1. Snape helped introduce her to the magical world. He helped her discover what she was, a witch. Of course, Lily would have found out whether Snape told her or not because she would have gotten her letter from Hogwarts regardless. It's just with Snape telling her beforehand, it didn't come as such a surprise. Plus, growing up with muggles, Snape was probably able to answer any questions she had about the wizarding world...similar to how Ron could help Harry and Hermione because they had grown up with muggles.

2. Hmm...I don't know. Lily tried to apologize to Petunia, but Petunia wasn't having it. I think Petunia was far too embarrased, too jealous, and too hurt to forgive Lily. It seems that she should have grown out of her jealousy, but she never did. I think another big part of it was due to Lily's friendship with Snape. Before Snape came into the picture, Lily and Petunia seemed to be very close. Then Snape came in and introduced Lily to a whole new world that Petunia could never be a part of, and it just crushed Petunia. She felt left out because Snape could relate to Lily in a way that she never would be able to. I think that if Snape and Lily had not become friends, Petunia and Lily's relationship would not have crumbled so much.

3. I think she had a lot of friends, probably from each house (with the exception of Slytherin...I'm sure Snape was the only Slytherin friend she had, not because she didn't get along with Slytherins, but simply out of the Gryffindor/Slytherin rivalry tradition). I think Lily was really popular because she was so nice. Of course, the only type of people she wouldn't be friends with were people like James! lol

4. It shows how much of a nice person she was. She did not judge people and didn't care about what other people thought. It also shows that she was able to have friendships with lots of people, even between people that did not get along with each other.

5. I think this was the last straw for her because of the great lengths she went through to stand up for Snape. Being in Gryffindor, I'm sure her housemates gave her a lot of grief about being such good friends with a Slytherin. And Snape was bullied a lot, and Lily always took up for him. This surely was trying for her, but stuck with Snape because of her loyalty in their friendship. We know that around this time, she was already having problems with Snape for hanging out with the 'death eaters' and she didn't like the direction his new group of friends were pulling him. But she remained his friend nonetheless. So when he called her a 'mudblood', of course she was hurt beyond words. All the trouble she went through to stay in a friendship with him, and despite her loyalty to him, he could stoop as low to call her a mudblood and she could not get over it. She saw that Snape was becoming a different person and she just could not deal with it anymore (and did not realize that he was just trying to impress her).
If she had lived, she may have eventually forgiven him. But Snape's chances with her would have been over regardless because she had grown closer to James.

1) Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
Lily and Snape met when they were around nine? Wasn't it? Anyway, obviously this would have made quite a difference. It meant Lily didn't need to experience all the wonders of the wizarding world alone. Being both best friends (though I think Snape did his part in making it 'best') they would have been able to converse in each other and discover new things together. I still think Lily asked questions even after they left for Hogwarts. Their relationship and magic seemed to be tied together. Even at Summer holidays I would have thought the neighbours to still manage to play in a muggle environment.

2) Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
I don't think so. I think Lily had been attempting for quite a long time to 'sort
Snape out. She couldn't hang around with someone who supported the cause [I]against[I] muggle borns, like herself. She'd no doubt been trying to put him on the 'right' track for a few years. As for Petunia, she wouldn't have even bothered with Snape. Petunia obviously didn't like him and seeing as she'd fallen out with her sister I don't think she would have done much to help him. Having Snape out of the picture probably made things better from her point of view.

3) Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.
She was popular, wasn't she? I mean i'm not saying anything against popular kids but they're usually popular for a reason and a lot of the time very unkind to those 'lower' than themselves. No doubt they were good Gryfindors but maybe not always the best advisors.

4) According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
I think this just shows how understanding Lily could be. She didn't judge Snape on his appearance or the fact he was a Slytherin. Then again I supose Snape didn't always show his true colours to everyone else so he wouldn't be seen as a very nice person. I think the popularity of the Marauders didn't help Snape at all considering they liked to use him as a bit of a punchbag.


5) Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?
I think it was the final straw. Good on her, in my opinion. She wasn't going to take that from anyone and she knew how far Snape was falling into the little Death Eater party. She couldn't get him out of there and it was his decision and he'd made it. He sacrifised their friendship to make himself look a bit better in front of his friends. Lily probably heard him at sometimes making fun of muggle borns with his friends. Although it was an accident that's not to mean it wouldn't have happened later. Lily knew that, she got out when she was certain he wasn't going to get better. She didn't abandon him, he sort of abandoned himself.

It's possible to forgive an awful lot, but it's almost impossible for a mother to forgive someone who treats her child badly. It's that same maternal protective instinct that made Lily block an Avada Kedavra curse with her own body, even though she had no idea that this would save Harry (it was logical to assume that Voldemort would step over her dead body and kill Harry anyway).

Hear! Hear! I'd have to resort to unsavoury things should anyone treat my child like that and I'm not talking about jail either!

It's possible to forgive an awful lot, but it's almost impossible for a mother to forgive someone who treats her child badly. It's that same maternal protective instinct that made Lily block an Avada Kedavra curse with her own body, even though she had no idea that this would save Harry (it was logical to assume that Voldemort would step over her dead body and kill Harry anyway).

:agree:

I think it's easier to forgive offenses against yourself than against someone you love so dearly, like a child, and I can't see Lily, devoted mother that she is, greeting him enthusiastically in heaven and forgiving him because of the terrible way he treated her child. Lily, IMO, would put her child above a long-lost former friend- any decent mum would, IMO.

There was also no reason for Snape to treat Harry poorly; he did it because of a petty childhood grudge against James, and I can't see Lily finding that kind of unjustified mistreatment at all excusable.
-LilyPod

I think it's easier to forgive offenses against yourself than against someone you love so dearly, like a child, and I can't see Lily, devoted mother that she is, greeting him enthusiastically in heaven and forgiving him because of the terrible way he treated her child. Lily, IMO, would put her child above a long-lost former friend- any decent mum would, IMO.

I agree. I still like the idea of her chasing him across the clouds with a copper pot in hand - and that's assuming that James didn't catch him first.

There was also no reason for Snape to treat Harry poorly; he did it because of a petty childhood grudge against James, and I can't see Lily finding that kind of unjustified mistreatment at all excusable.
-LilyPod

I suppose we could argue that Snape was prone to petty things, being something of a petty person himself. He was jealous to a fault - not just about Lily but years later, when Dumbledore wouldn't tell him what he was doing with Harry in those closeted sessions. He wanted to be Dumbledore's right-hand man, to have him all to himself just as he wanted Lily all to himself.

I still like the idea of her chasing him across the clouds with a copper pot in hand - and that's assuming that James didn't catch him first.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: what an image....

I've often thought about it, and I think that Lily Potter, had she somehow managed to escape the cottage after James's warning that night, would have been a living "don't-you-dare-mistreat-my-son" warning to Snape (who I think might have got an earful from Lily if she were alive), or for that matter anyone who tried to bully Harry. In fact, a number of things would have been different: Sirius wouldn't have gone to Azkaban if she'd testified that their Secret Keeper was Peter, Remus would probably have stayed in touch too- and Harry would have grown up knowing he was a wizard.
I do believe she'd have forgiven Petunia for how she treated Harry, though- partly because Petunia, by the end of her interactions with Harry, had at least some sympathy for the boy- per JKR, she nearly wished him good luck as she left.

She might have forgiven Petunia, but somehow I think Petunia wouldn't have responded in a reciprocal way. If all things had been equal, Petunia would have been a great match for Snape. Neither of them ever learned to deal with disappointments without making someone pay for their discomfiture.

I'd like to believe the sisters could have reconciled, not least because Petunia seemed, by the last time we saw her, to actually have acknowledged that Harry had a tough road ahead, and would, with a bit of courage, have wished Harry well- not something Snape ever did (apart from not wanting him dead or maimed). The connection to Lily, tenuous as it may have been, existed- Harry himself sensed that Petunia knew what it'd be like after the Dementor attack in OotP.
Even while Lily lived, she and Petunia hadn't broken off contact entirely- horrible Christmas presents may have been sent, and snarky jokes made about those presents, but it wasn't, IMO, like the total break she made with Snape.

Maybe you're right, Dru. I would have liked that to happen, even through Harry after the defeat of Voldemort, but Petunia is just... weird.

In fact, a number of things would have been different: Sirius wouldn't have gone to Azkaban if she'd testified that their Secret Keeper was Peter, Remus would probably have stayed in touch too- and Harry would have grown up knowing he was a wizard.

And Harry would have spent his entire life in hiding because Voldemort would have been very much alive.

originally posted by Druscilla
I'd like to believe the sisters could have reconciled, not least because Petunia seemed, by the last time we saw her, to actually have acknowledged that Harry had a tough road ahead, and would, with a bit of courage, have wished Harry well- not something Snape ever did (apart from not wanting him dead or maimed). The connection to Lily, tenuous as it may have been, existed- Harry himself sensed that Petunia knew what it'd be like after the Dementor attack in OotP.
Even while Lily lived, she and Petunia hadn't broken off contact entirely- horrible Christmas presents may have been sent, and snarky jokes made about those presents, but it wasn't, IMO, like the total break she made with Snape.

I agree. I have often wondered what went through Petunia's mind when she realized Lily was dead. Would she have wished that she had made peace? Or did she really think Lily deserved it?

I've always detected a bit of hurt in Petunia's voice, when she says, "And then she went and got herself blown up". I think part of her wishes that Lily had never been a witch. She blames Lily's death on her magic and it gives her something else to hate about magic. First it robbed her of Lily in childhood, and then it took her away before they could make things right. It would just add to her list of greivances.

I would like to think though, that they could've reconciled eventually. Lily would'v jumped at the chance, and maybe after awhile, Petunia would've come around.

And Harry would have spent his entire life in hiding because Voldemort would have been very much alive.

You know, I've often though about what Harry's life could have been like with his parents if the Dark Lord had chosen Neville, before I realized that Neville would not have survived- Harry survived because Lily was given a choice to save herself, because Snape requested that she be spared. So, even if the Dark Lord had gone after Neville, and Frank and Alice had died trying to protect him, he would not have survived because the Dark Lord would not have given Alice a choice; as far as we know, Snape did not care what happened to Alice, and the Dark Lord probably would have loved to get a pesky auror out of the way.

It's interesting to think about, because you can see how all the plot elements really do tie together.....

-LilyPod

I found it interesting to see that Lily and Petunia had actually got on quite well before Lily found out she was a witch- the fact that barring older-sister bossiness, Petunia showed concern for Lily (not wanting her to jump off the swing). They were very different indeed, but I do agree with dweaselqueen that Petunia may have resented magical ability most of all because she (apart from being jealous) saw it as the thing that took Lily away from her.

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

Out of all the characters, I always find Lily's friendships the most interesting. According to JKR, Lily was very popular like Ginny, and I can see why. I always saw Lily as the type to get along with almost everyone, which was proven to me in DH. It's interesting that she was friends with Snape. A few years after the friendship ended, she fell in love with James and befriended James' best friends. I always see Snape and the Marauders (especially Sirius and James) to be complete opposites. Lily could get along with all of them and grew to care for them all deeply. It just shows how open she is to all different types of personalities, IMO.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

Before SWM came around, I think the friendship was falling apart already. Snape's comment was, IMO, not the main reason why she ended her friendship. It was simply the reason that she realized the friendship had to come to an end. According to Lily, she had been making excuses for Snape for years. How could she remain friends with someone who associated himself with things that went against her morals? Snape was calling others Mudbloods and was aspiring to become a future Death Eater. At the time Voldemort's regime was going after Muggleborns and Muggles alike. How could Lily remain friends with someone that wanted to join a group of people that clearly wanted her dead?

Before SWM came around, I think the friendship was falling apart already. Snape's comment was, IMO, not the main reason why she ended her friendship. It was simply the reason that she realized the friendship had to come to an end. According to Lily, she had been making excuses for Snape for years. How could she remain friends with someone who associated himself with things that went against her morals? Snape was calling others Mudbloods and was aspiring to become a future Death Eater. At the time Voldemort's regime was going after Muggleborns and Muggles alike. How could Lily remainf riedns with someone that wanted to join a group of people that clearly wanted her dead?
That's it in a nutshell. Jo showed us two scenes, one right before SWM, and one right after. We were supposed to see that there were already serious strains in the relationship. Calling her mudblood, was the last straw. It was emblematic of their problems.

Lily was well-suited accept the Marauders. She was open and caring (and our earliest illustration of this was her friendship with Snape). She was selfless, and the kind of loyalty the Marauders exhibited for each other would mesh well with her, since loyalty means putting others first.

Wow, I don't have anything especial to add! Beautifically and CBW said it all for me. I would have liked Lily in real-life.

posted by Hermy_Weasley
Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

Snape had been calling everyone by that name for years! Yet Lily broke off with him, because he called her that and broke off saying they were finished as friends! And since there was never a mention of Lily even thinking of Snape, I don't think she would have reconsidered, not in the time she had, but had she lived, who knows???

He was hanging out with the junior DEs, who apparently practiced dark magic and tormented other students. He was attracted to dark magic, too. He wanted to become a DE. He issued racist insults to others, and I'm certain Lily objected when he did. And then he called her a mudblood. It wasn't just calling her a mudblood, but the whole package, junior DEs, dark magic, and racism.

posted by CBW
He was hanging out with the junior DEs, who apparently practiced dark magic and tormented other students. He was attracted to dark magic, too. He wanted to become a DE. He issued racist insults to others, and I'm certain Lily objected when he did. And then he called her a mudblood. It wasn't just calling her a mudblood, but the whole package, junior DEs, dark magic, and racism.

I agree, Snape did all that, but Lily was okay with it until he called her a mudblood. She had been arguing with him for *years* but was still his friend. Her friends could never understand why she would even give him the time of day and she was still his friend; imo she broke off on that day when Snape sadly called her a mudblood!

It looked to me that she was pretty content to keep arguing with Snape and trying to get him away from his nasty friends in Slytherin, until he went and called her by the same name!

It wasn't the name calling in isolation. It was the last straw. One more thing that he was doing that she found unacceptible. She had gone to his defense and he insulted her, instead. A "filthy little mudblood" is the same as ugly muggle epithets that can lead to fist fights or worse.

She had argued with him for years in the hope that he would get the message and stop following his dark and destructive path. The fact that he would also call her a mudblood meant he was finally a lost cause.

posted by CBW
She had gone to his defense and he insulted her, instead. A "filthy little mudblood" is the same as ugly muggle epithets that can lead to fist fights or worse.

Well imo, if she cannot understand the context and the situation in which he called her one, then she was not a very good friend was she?

There he was, hanging upside down, just because Sirius was bored, and it takes a remonstration from a girl, whom Snape fancies and who has seen him at his most humiliating, for James to let him down. And the girl has seen him showing his rather dirty underwear for the world to see?

While a muggle would use swear words that are most likely banned here, to be shown in such a bad light in front of the girl he loved, Snape called her a wizarding equivalent of muggle swear words imo!

I can understand her anger and even the fact that she would not speak to him for a couple of days or even weeks that it would take her to calm down -- but to calmly and almost clinically cut Snape out of her life as if he was something disgusting, when until the day before or even until the time Snape called her a mudblood, she was content to keep arguing and trying to make Snape see sense about the error of his ways, is too quick a transition from very good friends to *I just don't want to do anything with you anymore*imo. Really, really best friends don't do that imo and Jo told us Lily loved Snape as her friend!

Had she said something like 'I did warn you Severus, I warned you that you will lose me as your friend if you continued the way you did. It saddens me but I really think we are very different and have different priorities and values to be even acquaintances let alone friends and I am very sorry, but unless you change I firmly believe there is no point in even talking to each other -- if you feel you can't change then this is goodbye' or something like that -- implying very serious conversations previously between them, then her actions are absolutely okay, correct and justified! imo

But we never read about such serious arguments between Lily and Snape and imo Lily never told Snape seriously just what Snape would lose if he went the way he did!

Intead imo she just cuts him off and never bothers to ask after him later! Ever!

Well imo that's not what a genuine friend would do. Even if I do break off because of various reasons, somewhere inside me, I would wonder how he is now and wish well for the person who was my first friend in the magical world with whom I was so close and who has has fallen into bad ways and hope he would come out of it, especially if it is something that would destroy him ultimately. But Lily does not seem to care! imo

We never see anything like that either in cannon or in the post DH interviews.
The way the arguments are mentioned in the books they seen very casual not serious disagreements that eventually leading a frustrated Lily who had just about reached the end of her tether as far as Snape was concerned.

The entire post is my opinion only -- just in case I failed to place imo's in appropriate places!

Well imo, if she cannot understand the context and the situation in which he called her one, then she was not a very good friend was she?

There he was, hanging upside down, just because Sirius was bored, and it takes a remonstration from a girl, whom Snape fancies and who has seen him at his most humiliating, for James to let him down. And the girl has seen him showing his rather dirty underwear for the world to see?

While a muggle would use swear words that are most likely banned here, to be shown in such a bad light in front of the girl he loved, Snape called her a wizarding equivalent of muggle swear words imo!

I can understand her anger and even the fact that she would not speak to him for a couple of days or even weeks that it would take her to calm down -- but to calmly and almost clinically cut Snape out of her life as if he was something disgusting, when until the day before or even until the time Snape called her a mudblood, she was content to keep arguing and trying to make Snape see sense about the error of his ways, is too quick a transition from very good friends to *I just don't want to do anything with you anymore*imo. Really, really best friends don't do that imo and Jo told us Lily loved Snape as her friend!

Had she said something like 'I did warn you Severus, I warned you that you will lose me as your friend if you continued the way you did. It saddens me but I really think we are very different and have different priorities and values to be even acquaintances let alone friends and I am very sorry, but unless you change I firmly believe there is no point in even talking to each other -- if you feel you can't change then this is goodbye' or something like that -- implying very serious conversations previously between them, then her actions are absolutely okay, correct and justified! imo

But we never read about such serious arguments between Lily and Snape and imo Lily never told Snape seriously just what Snape would lose if he went the way he did!

Intead imo she just cuts him off and never bothers to ask after him later! Ever!

Well imo that's not what a genuine friend would do. Even if I do break off because of various reasons, somewhere inside me, I would wonder how he is now and wish well for the person who was my first friend in the magical world with whom I was so close and who has has fallen into bad ways and hope he would come out of it, especially if it is something that would destroy him ultimately. But Lily does not seem to care! imo

We never see anything like that either in cannon or in the post DH interviews.
The way the arguments are mentioned in the books they seen very casual not serious disagreements that eventually leading a frustrated Lily who had just about reached the end of her tether as far as Snape was concerned.

The entire post is my opinion only -- just in case I failed to place imo's in appropriate places!

I respect your opinion. I feel that by 5th year, Lily had reached the point where her care for her friendship with Snape had waned and by the time she broke it off, she ceased to care altogether. After Lily ended the friendship, I believe she moved on and didn't look back. However, I don't think that was a bad thing; I believe it to have been a healthy decision under the circumstances. The right to choose one's friends is an individual right, imo, not a duty.

I respect your opinion. I feel that by 5th year, Lily had reached the point where her care for her friendship with Snape had waned and by the time she broke it off, she ceased to care altogether. After Lily ended the friendship, I believe she moved on and didn't look back. However, I don't think that was a bad thing; I believe it to have been a healthy decision under the circumstances. The right to choose one's friends is an individual right, imo, not a duty.

I agree. The friendship was hanging by a string by SWM, and so when he called her a Mudblood it was a slap to the face, a wake-up call telling her this wasn't a healthy friendship, and she severed ties with him (lol severed - sorry).

To be honest, I was kind of surprised they considered each other best friends; from what I observed, IMO, they weren't that close. He didn't seem to understand Lily at all. Every conversation we saw them have ended or contained some argument - and that's perfectly normal between friends, but these arguments were about really serious issues. If they disagreed on such a fundamental level, how did they ever come to consider each other best friends?

And that's actually what came to end their friendship. Snape was becoming everything Lily stood against, and no matter how much she warned him and defended him, he still did not listen to her and actually thought she'd be impressed by what he was becoming. He was aiming to join a group of people who were basically committing a sort of genocide against people like Lily - there is no way, in my mind, that their friendship could have held, and I applaud Lily for knowing what wasn't good for her.

I've said this a few times before in these threads, but there seriously does come a point where you just can't try anymore. People have criticized Lily for dropping Snape so quickly. But was it really that uncalled for? We know from canon that she'd been defending him for years. I'd say she held on much longer than most would have.

And that's actually what came to end their friendship. Snape was becoming everything Lily stood against, and no matter how much she warned him and defended him, he still did not listen to her and actually thought she'd be impressed by what he was becoming. He was aiming to join a group of people who were basically committing a sort of genocide against people like Lily - there is no way, in my mind, that their friendship could have held, and I applaud Lily for knowing what wasn't good for her.

I've said this a few times before in these threads, but there seriously does come a point where you just can't try anymore. People have criticized Lily for dropping Snape so quickly. But was it really that uncalled for? We know from canon that she'd been defending him for years. I'd say she held on much longer than most would have.


:agree:

I like Lily very much, but I thought it was a bit too nice of her to make the effort she did to keep the friendship alive with Snape, when he was becoming, a kind of person, who, as you said, was willing to join a group of people who would have liked to see her dead. I think it is very obvious in their little talk outside the portrait hole how liberating and empowering it was for her to finally be lifted of that burden; she had, as she said, chosen her way at last.

-LilyPod

There he was, hanging upside down, just because Sirius was bored, and it takes a remonstration from a girl, whom Snape fancies and who has seen him at his most humiliating, for James to let him down. And the girl has seen him showing his rather dirty underwear for the world to see?

None of that is an excuse for what Snape said. If my best friend called me a racist term, I'd be really hurt. He was her best friend, and he called her an offensive term. It was used by supporters of the pureblood supremacy, an idea Voldemort used as well.

I can understand her anger and even the fact that she would not speak to him for a couple of days or even weeks that it would take her to calm down -- but to calmly and almost clinically cut Snape out of her life as if he was something disgusting, when until the day before or even until the time Snape called her a mudblood, she was content to keep arguing and trying to make Snape see sense about the error of his ways, is too quick a transition from very good friends to *I just don't want to do anything with you anymore*imo. Really, really best friends don't do that imo and Jo told us Lily loved Snape as her friend!

But what he was doing wasn't exactly saintly. Before SWM came, the friendship was falling apart already. She already tried to tell Snape to stop associating himself with future Death Eaters, but he didn't listen. It was the last straw when he called her a Mudblood. He was infatuated with the Dark Arts and prone to calling others Mudbloods. Worst of all, he wanted to become a Death Eater. How could Lily be friends with someone who aspired to become part of a group that went out killing people like herself? It went against her morals, and I don't fault her for her choice.

posted by LilyPod
I like Lily very much, but I thought it was a bit too nice of her to make the effort she did to keep the friendship alive with Snape, when he was becoming, a kind of person, who, as you said, was willing to join a group of people who would have liked to see her dead. I think it is very obvious in their little talk outside the portrait hole how liberating and empowering it was for her to finally be lifted of that burden; she had, as she said, chosen her way at last.

I really don't think Lily took extra pains to keep the friendship alive. imo she did not like him calling her a mudblood and she told him he was not her friend anymore.imo

Well imo, if she cannot understand the context and the situation in which he called her one, then she was not a very good friend was she?
While I understand that it was a horrible situation and I understand why Snape was so angry and lashed out, I don't think Lily is a bad friend for not "understanding the context of the situation" in which he called her a Mudblood. Honestly, of all the things he could have called her he called her a name that was known to be incredibly offensive and I don't think Lily should have felt better about it later or just gave him the silent treatment and be done with it. If my best friend called me the N word to my face in such a manner, even if they were in a horrible situation, I would be furious and Lily's reaction was justified.

I really don't think Lily took extra pains to keep the friendship alive. imo she did not like him calling her a mudblood and she told him he was not her friend anymore.imo

I think that she did. Gryffindor/Slytherin friendships were considered uncool; her friends all disliked Snape and bantered her about why she talked to him. The easy path would have been dumping him, but she did not. She made the effort to see and talk to him outside of class. He was not in her house, but in fifth year, he is still her best friend. If you think about other close, or "best" friendships we have seen in the books (Harry/Ron/Hermione, Seamus/Dean, Parvati/Lavender, Fred/George/Lee, Cho/Marietta, Ernie/Hannah, James/Sirius/Remus/Peter, etc.), most of them are between people in the same house, those who they are closest to and spend the most time with, in classes and in the dorms. I think maintaining a close friendship with someone in a different house, particularly with someone in a hated house, who is considered uncool and unpopular, took moral courage on Lily's part, and would have taken effort on both their parts.

I think it was more than the mudblood incident that incited Lily's decsion to end the friendship; she saw Snape for what he was becoming, she saw that he was on the road to Death Eater-hood, and she could not maintain the frienship on the basis of her own morals and muggleborn-status. During their conversation, she basically told Snape to choose her or Mulciber, and he chose Mulciber, a boy who used Dark Magic and who wanted people like Lily to be killed. IMO, Lily recognized that he was going down the wrong path, and that she couldn't support him anymore.

-LilyPod

I really don't think Lily took extra pains to keep the friendship alive. imo she did not like him calling her a mudblood and she told him he was not her friend anymore.imo

Lily didn't like him because he was befriending Avery and Mulciber. She didn't like that he was aiming to become a Death Eater. IMO, it takes a lot of pain to continue being friends with someone who wanted to be apart of a group aiming to kill Muggleborns such as herself.

But we never read about such serious arguments between Lily and Snape and imo Lily never told Snape seriously just what Snape would lose if he went the way he did!
They were friends. Don't you think they would have had many discussions about this? Jo didn't have to show us every one of them since that would make for tedious reading. But Jo showed us one, so that we would understand that it was an issue between them.

And I don't think that Lily would have been the type to make ultimatums to friends. I would think she would express her opinion clearly and hope the other person got the hint. It worked with James, she told him he was arrogant and conceited and he got the message and "shrunk his head."

I've said this a few times before in these threads, but there seriously does come a point where you just can't try anymore. People have criticized Lily for dropping Snape so quickly. But was it really that uncalled for? We know from canon that she'd been defending him for years. I'd say she held on much longer than most would have.I used the example of the guy I dated who eventually became a junkie. I could see him sliding down the slope. I even warned him about his roommates who were scuzzy types that associated with pushers. There were some odd events that almost dragged me down with him. I did everything I could to keep him from go further down his dark path, but things got too weird and I had cut it off. He eventually become a junkie and then he dropped completely out of sight.

It was painful when I ended it with him, but I had no choice. I knew that I was the last lifeline he had keeping him from going under, but he was dragging me down with him.

The point is that once a person decides to go down such a dark path, there is no amount of convincing that someone else can do to stop them. They already know the dangers but are convinced they can manage it. They never can.

Lily remained friends with Snape for five years at Hogwarts (and probably a year or so before that). We know that she defended him and made excuses for him to her friends, that she maintained this friendship despite the bad feelings between Slytherins and Gyffindors. We have not been shown every discussion or argument they ever had. But we were shown one that was representative of their problems. That's all we need. It is not Lily's fault that Snape chose the path he did. I'm certain that they discussed it many times. I don't think Lily would have been the type to issue an ultimatum to him. But Snape wasn't stupid. He knew how Lily felt about it. He chose to ignore it since he had chosen his dark path.

It was Snape's own fault that made the mistakes that he did. One of the central themes in the books is the importance of choice. I doubt that the message we are supposed to see in Snape's poor choices is that it was Lily's fault.

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
Well, it was through Snape that Lily found her true identity, he was her first impression of "wizards." Snape told Lily alot about the magical world- he told her about dementors, about Azkaban, about Hogwarts, and, most importantly, that her muggle heritage didn't "Make any difference." I think his stories excited and intrigued her, and his assertion that she was just as good as non-muggleborns most likely gave her confidence and boosted her spirit when she went to school. Contact with Snape, however, eventually showed Lily the dark and ugly side of the Wizarding World, and threw the harsh reality of wizarding prejudice into her face--obviously, she had the moral courage to end up taking a stand against the dark side, and it cost her her life:(

Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
Yes. If Lily had lived, I do feel that their relationship could have been mended, if Petunia had been able to get over her jealousy of Lily and the magical world that she so wanted to be a part of. Lily loved her sister, that is certain, because she was hurt by Petunia's attempt to shut her out of her life at the train station; I feel she would have been willing to give Petunia another chance, as she was a very loving and caring person herself.

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.
Well, she was a very popular girl, so I imagine she had lots of friends! She probably hung out with many different types of people; it seems as if she could see the good in anyone, and gave anyone a chance. I can imagine she had friends in Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff, and Gryffindor, and that she probably preferred friends who were generally nice people; she didn't seem too keen on hanging out with James and Sirius when she thought they were bullies.

According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
Lily wasn't afraid to go against the crowd; she didn't care about being popular, instead, she cared more about her friend, even if hanging out with him "wasn't cool." She didn't give into peer pressure or let other people influence her decisons- she had a strong and independent character. I think Snape was probably a touchy subject with her friends, some of who could see that he was going down the wrong road, and were genuinely concerned about her associating with a potential Death Eater. I think we see that Lily was very stubborn- she kept making excuses for Snape, and it was difficult for her to see what he was becoming.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?
I think it was just the last straw for her because he was finally so far in as to turn against his best friend. She could see very clearly where he was going, what he was "aiming to be" nd she just couldn't keep the friendship going, because she could finally see that he put the Dark Arts ahead of her. The Dark Lord's regime went against everything that she stood for, and she couldn't continue a relationship with someone who supported an organization that wanted her dead. Had she lived, I do not think they would have reconciled- espeially if she found out that Snape reported the prophecy. Their differences, IMO, were not petty, but crucial, and I think they were just too different at the core to rekindle their friendship.

-LilyPod

originally posted by ComicBookWorm
They were friends. Don't you think they would have had many discussion about this? Jo didn't have to show us every one of them since that would make for tedious reading. But Jo showed us one, so that we would understand that it was an issue between them.

And I don't think that Lily would have been the type to make ultimatums to friends. I would think she would express her opinion clearly and hope the other person got the hint. It worked with James, she told him he was arrogant and conceited and he got the message and "shrunk his head."

Exactly. Just because Lily didn't warn Snape outright that their friendship was in danger before writing him off doesn't mean she didn't hint at it. They would've had arguments about this before. That one argument in Snape's memory sounds almost rehearsed when I read it. They've said it before and they know how the other is going to respond, but keep hoping the other will change their minds.

I think by the time the SWM rolled around, Lily and Snape's friendship was already on the rocks. Their arguments may've been increasing in frequency and intensity. Lily was starting to see that her friends were right, and that she had to stop making excuses for Snape (which I take to mean, that she knew where he was headed, but refused to acknowledge it, and so tried to explain it away to her friends). Then Snape calls her a mudblood, and that was the last straw for her. And really, it's totally understandable. I can't imagine calling my best friends a racial term, but if I did, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't talk to me for a long, long time. And that's without everything that's been building up between Snape and Lily. No, by the time Snape said that, their friendship was beyond repair. It took Snape saying that to slap Lily in the face and make her realize that she had to move on. And I give her props for doing so, it had to be hard for her, to completely give up on Snape, but as LilyDreamsOn said, there are times when you just can't try anymore.

It was Snape's own fault that made the mistakes that he did. One of the central themes in the books is the importance of choice. I doubt that the message we are supposed to see in Snape's poor choices is that it was Lily's fault.

Absolutely. That is the message I got from Lily's statement that "You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine." Lily knew she couldn't support the Dark Arts, especially in the manner Snape was planning to practice them (In full support of the Dark Lord, whose goal was muggle genocide), so she told him that she had to make the choice to travel a different path, and she did.

IMO, under no circumstances should Lily ever be blamed for the poor choices that Snape made.

-LilyPod

Ok everyone, discussion of Snape and Lily would be better off in the Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=111984) thread.

Ok everyone, discussion of Snape and Lily would be better off in the Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=111984) thread.

Sorry about that!:blush:

I myself find it difficult to analyze Lily's character as it's own, because it feels like her character has been defined by her relationship with Snape and, to a lesser extent, James. The only times we actually see Lily (and James, for that matter) are through Snape's memories of their relationship, plus the scene at Godric's Hollow, and when other characters in the story who knew her, like Remus and Sirius, talk about her, they don't seem to do so without bringing up James as well. I hope to get some more information about Lily in the Encyclopedia!:)

-LilyPod

Sorry about that!:blush:

I myself find it difficult to analyze Lily's character as it's own, because it feels like her character has been defined by her relationship with Snape and, to a lesser extent, James. The only times we actually see Lily (and James, for that matter) are through Snape's memories of their relationship, plus the scene at Godric's Hollow, and when other characters in the story who knew her, like Remus and Sirius, talk about her, they don't seem to do so without bringing up James as well. I hope to get some more information about Lily in the Encyclopedia!:)

-LilyPod
I agree. The same effect has been happening in the Snape threads as well, since she was an important part of Snape's character. I don't blame JKR for it, but more of how the story was structured. There is no room to define and emphasis more on Lily's character for plot reasons. I too hope there's more information on her in the encyclopedia, because I don't think DH did enough for her even when we were given a lot about her.

Which is why, IMO, it's a bit unfair to put so much blame on her for ending her friendship with Sev. Not only because it excuses Sev of his faults way more than it should, but there really isn't enough about her in DH to analyze her to that extent, IMO.

How about Lily and her family?
Do you think that Lily was close to Petunia? Lily seemed like a very happy child. Do you think she tried to stay close to her family?

I agree. The same effect has been happening in the Snape threads as well, since she was an important part of Snape's character. I don't blame JKR for it, but more of how the story was structured. There is no room to define and emphasis more on Lily's character for plot reasons. I too hope there's more information on her in the encyclopedia, because I don't think DH did enough for her even when we were given a lot about her.

Which is why, IMO, it's a bit unfair to put so much blame on her for ending her friendship with Sev. Not only because it excuses Sev of his faults way more than it should, but there really isn't enough about her in DH to analyze her to that extent, IMO.

I hope so too (the encyclopedia), because I feel I am only the one person who thinks not so well of Lily and I want to desperately change my view.

The problem with me about Lily was that I kept comparing her with Hermione and just how Hermione would have reacted in the same circumstances. And Lily came second to Hermione every time for me.

While Harry or Ron never showed death eater tendencies or leanings towards the Dark for a perfect comparison, I still feel Hermione would have been a better friend.

She would have never forgotten her first friend in the magical world IMO, and while she may have broken with Harry or Ron had they become death eaters, I still think, seeing what I have of her, she would have thought frequently of her friend who was on the opposite side of the fence, fighting her and killing those like her.

I think she would have agonized at what her friend whom she had loved so much had become, even if she had broken up with him.

My problem with Lily is that after SWM canon does not say there is personal interaction with Snape on any level. It is as if Lily simply forgot there was someone called Snape IMO.:no:

Sadly, like with Dumbledore, where she gave additional information that made so much of difference to Dumbledore's character for me, Jo has yet to say anything about Lily.

There is no paragraph to say Lily thought of her ex - friend with bitterness and betrayal; that she was angry he had chosen a side that was saying muggleborns like her had to be killed or driven out of the WW, nothing to say she thought of him with regret, because he would be kissed if he was captured or sent to keep the demetors company in AZzkaban for the rest of his natural life.

The way Lily ended their friendship was not emotional, I felt it was clinical and I think that was why she did not endear to me. She is very cool and collected as she breaks a five year relationship. That made me feel very uncomfortable and very sad.:upset:

While there is the letter Lily writes to Sirius to show us, she had grown very fond of Sirius, there is nothing to show us that Lily ever remembered Snape.

While I am not excusing Snape at that time for his actions -- he was a death eater at the time, still, the love and the memory of their friendship carried him from the lowest level to a place where Harry names his child after him. And this came after Lily died by his hand. That was the lowest one could sink to, to be responsible for the death of the person who had your soul.

But frustratingly for me Jo has still to tell us that *of course Lily has not forgotten Snape as he was her first friend, and they did share a lot of good stuff before the bad began to happen, but naturally she did not accept him as a death eater and so cut off with him* or some such thing.

I am eagerly waiting though, either for her interviews or the encyclopedia.:drool:

posted by SusanBones111
How about Lily and her family?
Do you think that Lily was close to Petunia? Lily seemed like a very happy child. Do you think she tried to stay close to her family?

I think Lily's parents were extraordinarily proud of her and that increased Petunia's jealousy and made the gap between the sisters wider than before. I don't know about Petunia, but Lily must have been very close to her parents, I suppose. And I don't think Lily was close to Petunia after she started Hogwarts.

Again we have very little about Lily, in fact apart from her sacrifice, there is nothing much at all IMO.

How about Lily and her family?
Do you think that Lily was close to Petunia? Lily seemed like a very happy child. Do you think she tried to stay close to her family?

- I think that Lily probably tried to stay close to Petunia, but Petunia was the one who pushed her away, she was so upset and jealous about Lily going to Hogwarts. :(
- I have no doubt that Lily would have stayed close to her parents, she seems like a happy, loving girl.

The_Green_Woods, I hear your pain! :sad:

I think that the trouble with that whole Lily, Severus and Marauders backstory - which I love for its Gothic tragedy! - is that it gives us such a sketchy impression of Lily (and James). We understand what makes Severus, Remus and Sirius tick! But Lily and James, not so much: beyond being Harry's adored dead heroic parents. The glimpses we get of Lily in DH are mostly favourable ... but those glimpses also raise questions, as you have said. Which is why our personal interpretations have to fill in. :cool:

I am eagerly waiting though, either for her interviews or the encyclopedia.:drool:

The trouble is that sometimes what Jo says about her own characters tends to annoy me rather than enlighten me. :whistle:

Ah, well. I think the beauty of creating memorable characters is that they take on a life of their own ... sometimes beyond their author's original intention. Which I think is dead cool. :tu:

posted by Pearl_Took
The trouble is that sometimes what Jo says about her own characters tends to annoy me rather than enlighten me.

:lol:

So far she has been great I felt. Which one did you feel was not okay? Was it about Lily? About anyone else would be off topic here, I think.

About Lily we are given next to no information at all. I was looking through the 'accio quotes' and there is nothing on Lily/James/Snape there.

Some Lily/Snape would have been wonderful, IMO.

With James we know he hated Slytherin, he hated Snape, he loved Lily, he turned animagus, he went ahead and trusted his friends to show the world that he had confidence in them -- we know enough to write and interpret various aspects of his character.

With Lily, we don't know anything much and what we know is woefully very little IMO and raises more questions than give answers, I felt.

:lol:

So far she has been great I felt. Which one did you feel was not okay? Was it about Lily? About anyone else would be off topic here, I think.

Heh. She's not said anything about Lily that annoyed me. :lol:

Actually, I think Rowling is very generous in how she interacts with her fanbase. :)

It's just that sometimes she seems to want us to react to her characters in a certain way ... whereas I believe characters have a life of their own and how a reader responds to a character is a wonderfully unpredictable thing ... just my personal opinion, of course. :)

You're right about James: we can actually build up quite a comprehensive character portrait of him.

With Lily, we don't know anything much and what we know is woefully very little IMO and raises more questions than give answers, I felt.

I don't feel as if we get that complete a picture of Lily ...

I also think she has awful taste in nicknames. 'Tuney'? 'Wormy'? :p :D

posted by Pearl_Took
I also think she has awful taste in nicknames. 'Tuney'? 'Wormy'?

:lol::lol::lol:

But totally appropriate for those two!

-------------

If Snape was able to think so much of her and allow her to flourish in his heart as his insipiration for so long, then there must have been something in Lily for him to do that.

I thought it was Snape's own guilt, because Lily died and he was in a way responsible for that and at that time he had not moved on.

Another thing that struck me as inadequate was the parting scene which is so casual IMO. There is nothing IMO on Lily's face to say that she was effectively breaking up with a guy she loved as a friend and who had been best friends with her for more than five years. Even if in the last year their friendship had been falling apart, she must have had so many memories of the good times they shared not to affected by her breaking up with Snape, and for me that scene was sadly lacking.

There's also this Lily... and her character analysis... :whistle:


Thanks for going back on topic now, guys! :lol:

:lol::lol::lol:

But totally appropriate for those two!

Well, that's true. :D

If Snape was able to think so much of her and allow her to flourish in his heart as his insipiration for so long, then there must have been something in Lily for him to do that.

Of course, the thing about Snapie is that he practically idolises Lily, puts her on a pedestal, and there she remains, long after her death ... he's such a sap. :p

Although my own interpretation of Lils is that she was, in essence, a decent lass. :)

Another thing that struck me as inadequate was the parting scene which is so casual IMO. There is nothing IMO on Lily's face to say that she was effectively breaking up with a guy she loved as a friend and who had been best friends with her for more than five years. Even if in the last year their friendship had been falling apart, she must have had so many memories of the good times they shared not to affected by her breaking up with Snape, and for me that scene was sadly lacking.

It really feels to me as she is finally washing her hands of him, as if her patience has finally run out. :( Given his Dark Arts involvement and the betrayal of his 'Mudblood' insult, it's understandable, but it still never quite sits comfortably with me, after the sheer cruelty of what she witnessed that afternoon. It's this which has led some in the fandom to call Lily shallow. I myself don't feel that is a fair assessment of her: I like Lily! It's just one of those momentous episodes in the story which somehow reveals less than we want it to ... IMO.

posted by Pearl_Took
It's this which has led some in the fandom to call Lily shallow. I myself don't feel that is a fair assessment of her: I like Lily! It's just one of those momentous episodes in the story which somehow reveals less than we want it to ... IMO.

:sigh: I am one of them, I am afraid and I know I am in a minority. But that break up scene really made me feel very, very sad.

While I agree and understand Snape was more than responsible for the break in their friendship, had it not been for association with the dark arts, she might have even been romantically intrested in him, the way she ends the friendship and then there is only silence, makes me not appreciate Lily as I should, I think.

What Jo has told us about Lily is about her incredible sacrifice and that she was friends with Snape, started going out with James in 7th year and then married and had Harry and died.

Oh and that she was a popular girl like Ginny.

That is nothing IMO. How did her relationship with James start? When did they get married? How were they protected in the time before the SK thing was enforced? Did she speak to Snape after her break up, think of him?

What did she think of the fact that one of James's friends were a death eater? Did she not try and find out who it was, given that she broke off with Snape precisely for that reason? Did she ask James to verify and did he not listen or was she okay with one of the 3 friends being a DE, if she was then why did she not try and contact Snape? Or did she?

Did James and Lily ever discuss Snape?

And did James and Lily know of the Prophecy?

:sigh::sigh:

And then about her character itself -- she was not averse to being friends with a Slytherin. That IMO was her biggest plus, she was brave enough to openly befriend a Slytherin and face the other Gryffindors, who would not have been kind to her. But apart from that we don't know anything else.

:sigh: I am one of them, I am afraid and I know I am in a minority. But that break up scene really made me feel very, very sad.

While I agree and understand Snape was more than responsible for the break in their friendship, had it not been for association with the dark arts, she might have even been romantically intrested in him, the way she ends the friendship and then there is only silence, makes me not appreciate Lily as I should, I think.

People are tending to see the "break up" scene as one scene.
Personally i feel it's more like the 'straw that breaks the camels back', so to speak. She's known him for 5 years, it's obvious he's into Dark Arts. He has friends who are into it also. She references the attack on the other pupil.

I think the end of their friendship was long ago. Bear in mind, she doesn't talk to snap after the exam, so they couldn't have been to friendly at the time. She's off with her female friends leaving Snape all alone.

I think it is good to remember that Lily was a popular girl. That likely means that by 5th year she was going out on dates, not with Snape, who she was not romantically interested in, or with James, who she thought was an arrogant toerag, but with others. For all we know, she may have seen certain boys steadily for a time, even though she did carry a torch for James (much like Ginny did in the face of a less than eager Harry, except of course Harry wasn't asking Ginny out on dates - whereas James made his desire to date known to Lily). Plus Lily had her girlfriends and all of the activities at Hogwarts to keep her busy - oh and not to mention her studies. Lily was likely a very busy girl. :)

Of course, the thing about Snapie is that he practically idolises Lily, puts her on a pedestal, and there she remains, long after her death ... he's such a sap. :p

It really feels to me as she is finally washing her hands of him, as if her patience has finally run out. :( Given his Dark Arts involvement and the betrayal of his 'Mudblood' insult, it's understandable, but it still never quite sits comfortably with me, after the sheer cruelty of what she witnessed that afternoon. It's this which has led some in the fandom to call Lily shallow. I myself don't feel that is a fair assessment of her: I like Lily! It's just one of those momentous episodes in the story which somehow reveals less than we want it to ... IMO.

Lol! I like your analysis of Snape... "Sap" isn't the first word that comes to mind when I think of him, but it fits! :)

I don't think Lily's shallow either. The thing we have to bear in mind when looking at that scene is that she and Snape are specifically talking about his behavior toward her. I mean, she's already chewed out James for what he did to Snape, and in return she gets called a name by her "best" friend (and I agree with you that this was probably a long time coming). It doesn't mean she forgets what James did, but it's now colored differently because of Snape's own actions. She's not someone who's going to allow herself to be walked all over and mistreated, and that's precisely what he did.

Lol! I like your analysis of Snape... "Sap" isn't the first word that comes to mind when I think of him, but it fits! :)

I don't think Lily's shallow either. The thing we have to bear in mind when looking at that scene is that she and Snape are specifically talking about his behavior toward her. I mean, she's already chewed out James for what he did to Snape, and in return she gets called a name by her "best" friend (and I agree with you that this was probably a long time coming). It doesn't mean she forgets what James did, but it's now colored differently because of Snape's own actions. She's not someone who's going to allow herself to be walked all over and mistreated, and that's precisely what he did.

Actually it happens the other way around; first Snape calls Lily a mudblood and then Lily chews James out. It doesn't affect your point at all, which was a very good one. I only bring it up because the chain reaction factor in the scene is pretty cool:

James and Sirius humiliate Snape
Snape humiliates James
James humiliates Snape again
Snape humiliates Lily
James gets furious over that & demands Snape apologize
Lily humiliates James
Sirius humiliates James
James humiliates Snape

It is funny that the break in the chain is James getting angry at Snape and not attacking him, but demanding an apology from Snape for Lily. Then Lily takes her humiliation out on James :lol::rotfl: I love that whole sequence; it cracks me up because it was so perfectly written to mimick many a school squirmish I've witnessed in the past. It is notable that although JKR told us that James suspected Snape had feelings for Lily and that resulted in jealousy on his part, he did not ever humiliate her, despite the fact that she was defending Snape and she told him off. :hmm:

How about Lily and her family?
Do you think that Lily was close to Petunia? Lily seemed like a very happy child. Do you think she tried to stay close to her family?

I think before Lily found out she was a witch, she was close with her sister. They seemed close enough in The Prince's Tale. It was only when Petunia realized she couldn't have the magic Lily had that the tension began. Petunia was jealous of Lily for having the one thing Lily couldn't offer her. Over the years, I think the relationship between them got worse.

In the first chapter of PS/SS, it is said that Lily and Petunia didn't see each other for years. It would make sense, with Lily busy with the Order and beginning a family. The letter Lily wrote to Sirius in DH, she doesn't call Petunia "Tuney" anymore. That, IMO, makes it clear that Lily had a very different relationship with her older sister than she had before she discovered she was a witch.

I think before Lily found out she was a witch, she was close with her sister. They seemed close enough in The Prince's Tale. It was only when Petunia realized she couldn't have the magic Lily had that the tension began. Petunia was jealous of Lily for having the one thing Lily couldn't offer her. Over the years, I think the relationship between them got worse.

In the first chapter of PS/SS, it is said that Lily and Petunia didn't see each other for years. It would make sense, with Lily busy with the Order and beginning a family. The letter Lily wrote to Sirius in DH, she doesn't call Petunia "Tuney" anymore. That, IMO, makes it clear that Lily had a very different relationship with her older sister than she had before she discovered she was a witch.

It's sad, isn't it? Lily and "Tuney" were presumably close as sisters, as little girls, but Lily's departure into the magical world tore them apart both emotionally, as Petunia's jealousy of Lily's magic led to a rift between them, and, eventually, physically, when Lily's involvement in the magical world led to her death, and Petunia's daily reminder of her sister was through Harry.

I am not sure of Lily's feelings toward Petunia as her life went on- she mentions casually in her letter that she didn't mind when baby Harry broke the ugly vase Petunia sent her, and that just made me think that their relationship had been reduced to a very cordial, tight-lipped one; I imagine they saw one another at family gatherings, and, of course, when Lily went home every summer during her school years, but it doesn't seem that they ever regained their childhood closeness because of Petunia's jealousy and spite toward her sister.

I do think that Lily was very upset with Petunia for the terrible way that Petunia treated Harry, to the point of physically neglecting her sister's son and never showing him love or care. Petunia could have treated Harry as her own son, but she let her envy and spite towards Lily manifest into horrible treatment of an innocent child. :no:

JMO.

-LilyPod

I think she would have agonized at what her friend whom she had loved so much had become, even if she had broken up with him.
But that's the thing, we don't know if she did or didn't do exactly that. We never seen what's beyond the breakup scene, let alone anything from Lily's perspective, because it's just not possible with how story goes.[/quote]

My problem with Lily is that after SWM canon does not say there is personal interaction with Snape on any level. It is as if Lily simply forgot there was someone called Snape IMO.:no:
Again, that's another thing we dont' know for sure IMO. All the memories come from Sev. If they weren't friends after the breakup, then they probably weren't on speaking terms or hung out anymore, so I don't think Sev would have had much to give anyway.

Plus, just based on how her son has reacted in certain scenarios as he grew up, I wouldn't be surprised if Lily was the stubborn type. Trying to front a touch exterior while something else could be going on inside. Maybe she did make a decision to just forget about hher old friend completely and move on her with life. But how do we know she made that choice BECAUSE she was heartbroken by the whole thing? I think many of us have been in situations where we make ourselves move on when we don't really want to, or because we feel there is no other choice. If it were the case where she never mentioned him ever again for the rest of her life, (I wouldn't be surprised as Sirius nor Remus seemed to know how close they were either.) it could have been she was still angry and hurt by the whole thing that she didn't want to face it. And I think pleanty of us have seen that scenario in other places as well.

posted by RavenStar83
But that's the thing, we don't know if she did or didn't do exactly that. We never seen what's beyond the breakup scene, let alone anything from Lily's perspective, because it's just not possible with how story goes.[/QUOTE]

I know. We don't know and how I wish we did.

Again, that's another thing we dont' know for sure IMO. All the memories come from Sev. If they weren't friends after the breakup, then they probably weren't on speaking terms or hung out anymore, so I don't think Sev would have had much to give anyway.

Plus, just based on how her son has reacted in certain scenarios as he grew up, I wouldn't be surprised if Lily was the stubborn type. Trying to front a touch exterior while something else could be going on inside. Maybe she did make a decision to just forget about hher old friend completely and move on her with life. But how do we know she made that choice BECAUSE she was heartbroken by the whole thing? I think many of us have been in situations where we make ourselves move on when we don't really want to, or because we feel there is no other choice. If it were the case where she never mentioned him ever again for the rest of her life, (I wouldn't be surprised as Sirius nor Remus seemed to know how close they were either.) it could have been she was still angry and hurt by the whole thing that she didn't want to face it. And I think pleanty of us have seen that scenario in other places as well

I thought Lily would look back at her friendship with Snape with something -- maybe anger, bitterness, regret, betrayal, a feeling of being let down that Snape chose the DE over her, anything.

It would mean a ton of regret and then, kind of trying and then succeeding to put everything behind us and the move on IMO. But we don't know. Perhaps she did all this and we are not shown. That could also be the case.IMO

And I agree we sometimes have to move on because hanging on does not help at all -- then I felt she would have been angry and hurt, because at that time, she only knew him as a death eater who was fighting opposite her. But there is nothing I felt.JMHO

I was very glad to see Lily and Petunia being so close as children. It was somehow gratifying to read this (because I always want everyone to turn out good or redeemed :lol:) - I actually loved Tuney Evans. I think her reaction of jealousy was perfectly normal for a 11-year-old, and I somehow can't imagine how it can last a lifetime. I have to assume Vernon had something to do with it. I really wish Lily and Petunia had managed to keep their friendship.

How about Lily and her family?
Do you think that Lily was close to Petunia? Lily seemed like a very happy child. Do you think she tried to stay close to her family?

I was really surprised to see that Lily & Petunia had been close as children, I had just always assumed that they never really got on. It was really nice to see that snapshot of their childhood, to find out that they had had a relatively close relationship. It's just a pity that Petunia had such a jealous streak, maybe Harry would have had a better life if Petunia had been accepting of Lily.

I think when Lily met a friend who also could do magic in Snape, the situation became like 2 against 1. Snape supported Lily's little magic acts and captured her imagination with his stories. I believe that was what ultimately drove them apart because Snape didn't like Petunia and seemed to cut her out of their friendship (and Lily let him). It seems things were never the same after that, even when Lily eventually cut her friendship with Snape. I suppose there was too much water under the bridge by then. Actually, Lily's friends at Hogwarts were putting her under a similar pressure about Snape, but she didn't continue giving them all up to remain friends as she seemed to have done at a younger age with Petunia. Later, they seemed to patch things up to some degree (Petunia (and Vernon?) sent the vase for christmas and I suppose James and Lily sent something to her/them).

While Petunia's family didn't treat Harry great, they did take him in, so I presume that she felt some responsibiity toward her sister. I think she became privy to Vernon's fears about Wizards, mainly because of the trauma her sister and brother-in-law went through, even if she didn't understand it all precisely. Harry was a link to all of that, and it may have been very frightening for her. But there was something mean-spirited about Petunia too which kind of points to the fact that she never fully forgave her sister for their youthful relationship.

I'd like to believe that, given enough time, Lily and Petunia might have been able to mend the relationship somewhat- at the end of her time with Harry, Petunia was at the very least trying to show that she understood what Harry was up against, and nearly managed to screw up the courage to wish him luck for it. Clearly she acknowledged, to at least that extent, that he was her sister's son. And Lily, pre-Hogwarts, seemed to have quite a good relationship with Petunia. albeit one laid over with bossy older-sister/cheeky little-sister tones.
Lily was sixteen when she stopped talking to Snape forever, and twenty-one when she died. I really don't think she tortured herself about it afterwards or even thought about Snape very much- she doesn't seem like the angsting type, if her reactions to Petunia's outburst at King's Cross (crying at first, but cheered up soon and then sidetracked to anger at James and Co.) are anything to go by. Added to which, friendships that break off at a young age tend to be very quick to turn into ancient history in a teenager's eyes- Lily certainly had no real reason to be beating herself up about it. And Petunia was her sister, whom she had to see every holiday- it's much easier to avoid a former friend in a different house at Hogwarts, than it is to ignore a family member. By the time of her letter to Sirius, her relationship with Petunia has degenerated into one of indifference/antagonism (the reference to the vase), but at least there was something.

originally posted by druscilla
I'd like to believe that, given enough time, Lily and Petunia might have been able to mend the relationship somewhat- at the end of her time with Harry, Petunia was at the very least trying to show that she understood what Harry was up against, and nearly managed to screw up the courage to wish him luck for it. Clearly she acknowledged, to at least that extent, that he was her sister's son. And Lily, pre-Hogwarts, seemed to have quite a good relationship with Petunia. albeit one laid over with bossy older-sister/cheeky little-sister tones.
Lily was sixteen when she stopped talking to Snape forever, and twenty-one when she died. I really don't think she tortured herself about it afterwards or even thought about Snape very much- she doesn't seem like the angsting type, if her reactions to Petunia's outburst at King's Cross (crying at first, but cheered up soon and then sidetracked to anger at James and Co.) are anything to go by. Added to which, friendships that break off at a young age tend to be very quick to turn into ancient history in a teenager's eyes- Lily certainly had no real reason to be beating herself up about it. And Petunia was her sister, whom she had to see every holiday- it's much easier to avoid a former friend in a different house at Hogwarts, than it is to ignore a family member. By the time of her letter to Sirius, her relationship with Petunia has degenerated into one of indifference/antagonism (the reference to the vase), but at least there was something.

I agree. I really liked the vase reference, it showed that there was at least something between them. They were not as close as they had been, but they weren't enemies. And at least a vase shows some thought. It's more then anything she ever gave Harry, which was always stuff just laying around the house. I wonder what Lily sent Petunia....:)

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
Snape told her she was a witch. They had something in common, something the she did not have in common with her older sister. And I imagine that all the things that Snape told her about the magical world were quite fascinating to her. It is like your most wildest fantasy ever coming true.

Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
I think that Petunia was jelous of Lily, because she was a witch, she was special. Petunia writing to DD shows that she wanted to go there, to be part of that world. Since she couldnt, she started treating her sister as a "freak". And some things that happen to you when you are a child mark you for life. So Lily became snape's best friend in a time where she could have been best friends with her sister. I also imagine Lily's parents being quite proud she was a witch, and maybe Petunia did not have anything special to compete with Lily.

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.
People like herself. Not DE of course. Not bullies (is that the correct term?) She was not friend with James, even though they were in the same house and year. Apparently she saw him as quite arrogant and full of himself. I think she was a very kind, humble, good student and hard working person.

According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
I think she was friends with people like herself.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?
She did not approve of his DE friends. She also did not approve his interest in the dark arts. And when he called her mudblood, she felt she had given him too many opportunities to change. I think that she would have forgiven him, if he truly showed remorse for being a DE.

I agree. I really liked the vase reference, it showed that there was at least something between them. They were not as close as they had been, but they weren't enemies. And at least a vase shows some thought. It's more then anything she ever gave Harry, which was always stuff just laying around the house. I wonder what Lily sent Petunia....:)

I think that Lily and James likely sent Petunia and Vernon something along the same lines as the vase. If they had lived longer, overtime they all might have ended up getting along. Petunia and Vernon may have had a whole different outlook on their brother/sister-in laws.

I'd like to believe that, given enough time, Lily and Petunia might have been able to mend the relationship somewhat- at the end of her time with Harry, Petunia was at the very least trying to show that she understood what Harry was up against, and nearly managed to screw up the courage to wish him luck for it.I'd also like to think that they might have been able to reestablish their relationship given time. If Lily had survived to see the times of peace after DH took place, it's possible there might have been an opportunity for them to get back in touch and try to develop a somewhat amicable relationship.

I think that she would have forgiven him, if he truly showed remorse for being a DE.I agree with that, especially since she was friends with him for so long. In general I think she was a very forgiving person.

I agree with that, especially since she was friends with him for so long. In general I think she was a very forgiving person.
I do too. I just can't imagine her not ever forgiving him EVER if the right oppertunity arose. I really feel that she still cared about him even after the friendship ended.

I do too. I just can't imagine her not ever forgiving him EVER if the right oppertunity arose. I really feel that she still cared about him even after the friendship ended.


I respect your view. I had just the opposite feeling. I felt like Snape had hurt her in a very bad way and Lily recognized that she was being somewhat selfish in her regard for others he was treating in a similar bad way (calling them all Mudbloods and laughing and/or participating in dark magic acts against other with his friends for kicks). I Believe she finally recognized Snape for who he had become as a person, someone very different from the young boy she met. I think because canon does not ever indicate they spoke again, she likely washed her hands of him altogether and continued to dislike him for who he was, for the rest of her life. As such, I do not feel she cared in the least what he did becaues he had made his poor choices and stuck to them, despite her pointing out the ill-fate of his ways.

I think Lily saw that Snape was going to retain his bullying ways, his love of the dark arts and his dark interests (especially in Voldemort). I believe that Lily felt very deeply against these things - not just on a surface level - because these people were killing, torturing, kidnapping, maiming and causing fear to spread across the land. They were highly prejudice against Muggle born wizards, of which she was one and of Muggles which included her entire family. In my opinion, Lily was abhored by Snape's desire to join up with these types of people and as such, stopped caring, thinking and associating with him altogether. I find that highly commendable behavior on her part.

Lily had other friends, good friends who shared her outlook on equality and moral norms that included valuing the lives of everyone. She found these things in James and married him in proof of that. She also worked against all of those things she disagreed with as a member of the Order. So in my opinion, Lily was not a sentimentalist, weeping daily over the poor choices of others, even if they had once been called friends - not when they were among a group of people devastating the wizard world. Imo, if she were, it would be hypocritical of her and morally suspect and I don't think that matches Lily's character as portrayed in canon.

I respect your view. I had just the opposite feeling. I felt like Snape had hurt her in a very bad way and Lily recognized that she was being somewhat selfish in her regard for others he was treating in a similar bad way (calling them all Mudbloods and laughing and/or participating in dark magic acts against other with his friends for kicks). I Believe she finally recognized Snape for who he had become as a person, someone very different from the young boy she met. I think because canon does not ever indicate they spoke again, she likely washed her hands of him altogether and continued to dislike him for who he was, for the rest of her life. As such, I do not feel she cared in the least what he did becaues he had made his poor choices and stuck to them, despite her pointing out the ill-fate of his ways.

I don't think I can quite buy that, because IMO Rowling depicts Lily as a warm person. Certainly she broke off the friendship forever with Severus because of the disastrously bad choices he was making, to follow that dark path as a Death Eater, and that was a morally correct thing to do. There was no way Lily could condone any of that, and she made a conscious decision to break with him because of it.

But to say she didn't care about Snape and disliked him forever, even if she did not agree morally with his life-choices? That to me goes against the theme of redemption in the book. And Lily Potter is one of the characters who illustrates for me very clearly that redemptive principle.

Lily had other friends, good friends who shared her outlook on equality and moral norms that included valuing the lives of everyone. She found these things in James and married him in proof of that. She also worked against all of those things she disagreed with as a member of the Order. So in my opinion, Lily was not a sentimentalist, weeping daily over the poor choices of others, even if they had once been called friends - not when they were among a group of people devastating the wizard world. Imo, if she were, it would be hypocritical of her and morally suspect and I don't think that matches Lily's character as portrayed in canon.

Lily doesn't have to be weeping daily over the choices Severus made.

But if he had once been a really good friend -- and the book indicates that they were genuinely close as children -- then surely she would feel grief, from time to time, over the terrible choices he had made and the dark path he had chosen.

You can hate the actions of a person, the choices they make in life, without actually hating them. And you can even hope for their eventual redemption.

As I say, that's what I believe Lily Potter, as Rowling has written her, represents. Purely my own personal interpretation, of course.

:)

I don't think I can quite buy that, because IMO Rowling depicts Lily as a warm person. Certainly she broke off the friendship forever with Severus because of the disastrously bad choices he was making, to follow that dark path as a Death Eater, and that was a morally correct thing to do. There was no way Lily could condone any of that, and she made a conscious decision to break with him because of it.

But to say she didn't care about Snape and disliked him forever, even if she did not agree morally with his life-choices? That to me goes against the theme of redemption in the book. And Lily Potter is one of the characters who illustrates for me very clearly that redemptive principle.

But if he had once been a really good friend -- and the book indicates that they were genuinely close as children -- then surely she would feel grief, from time to time, over the terrible choices he had made and the dark path he had chosen.


I respect your view, but I think you are construing what Snape was getting into very lightly as "Lily's disagreement with his moral life choices." Snape was not becoming simply a man with loose morals, like Mundungus, Snape was becoming like, and eventually joined up with, a group that was far more nefarious. I think because of Snape's turnaround at the end of the series, one forgets exactly where he came from - the young man Lily knew - the ONLY Snape she knew. Here is what it means to be a death eater and the level of moral depravity they exhibited:

According to the canon description, the DEs were Murdering people just because they were muggle or muggle born - that means the muggles ended up dead, laying with their eyes open, vacant, staring at the ceiling leaving behind children, family, friends. They kidnapped people and tortured them - that doesn't mean simply asking questions, that means physically harming them, hanging them from the ceiling, crucioing them, filling their bodies with pain, sending other curses like semprasectum that left them bleeding and near death - getting what they wanted from them and then feeding them to Nagini - sometimes alive (as Voldemort did to the old man at Riddle mansion, and after Charity died in DH) or an equally maliciously cruel and depraved end. They maimed people, that means mutilating the person's body or whatever other atrocity they came up with. The Malfoys had a dungeon in their home to lock people away - this holding cell was not built to be a breakfast nook during the first war, it was used, likely to store captives between torture sessions. They also use the imperius curse on good people, making them perform atrocities against their will - on unsuspecting friends and family. Sirius told us this, but we also saw it first hand with Stan Shunpike. The DEs were proud of this; they hung their Death Mark in the sky where they had done killings - they were gloating over the horrifying things they did. (I know that this whole thing is kind of yuck, but that is what canon tells us and I am trying to show the reality of the situation JKR laid out for us.)

Lily knew of these things when young and then saw them first hand beginning at 18 years old. She told Sirius in her letter that she cried for an entire day over what had happened to a particular couple she knew. But as an Order member, she saw it happening to people she knew and did not know (faceless, nameless groups of muggles and muggle born wizards) on a consistent basis. Imagine the condition of the bodies that were recovered after torture? Imagine the groups of dead bodies she witnessed from the groups of muggle borns killed. This is what Lily was witnessing. Lily highly suspected Snape was among this group - every one suspected it as shown by Sirius saying so later and Dumbledore asking Snape what message his master was sending when he traveled to the hill.

In my opinion, there is no way that Lily would be filled with grief or sadness in some misguided fond memory of Snape. Lily would be driven to incredible anger and extreme dislike of all of the Death Eaters, including Snape who could carry out - assist in carrying out or aid/abet in carrying out these gruesome acts. That is why I said it would be hypocritical of her to feel differently about Snape based on the person he was at 10, when after their friendship ended, he turned to doing these things and then participated in them. Imo, feeling that way about any DE that wanted to and then did participate in these horrors would be akin to having grief, saddness and care for Hanibal.


You can hate the actions of a person, the choices they make in life, without actually hating them. And you can even hope for their eventual redemption.

As I say, that's what I believe Lily Potter, as Rowling has written her, represents. Purely my own personal interpretation, of course.

:)

I respect your view, but as I pointed out, this wasn't just a simple "choice in life" Snape made - this was something far worse - this was dedication to a group of cruel, evil murderers. If Lily had felt there was hope for redemption for Snape, she would not have broken off their friendship - or she would have reconciled. But it was obvious to her that he was headed down the wrong path and had no intention of turning back. Once he joined the DEs and became a part of causing the atrocities I spoke of above, I see nothing but anger, disgust and strong dislike in her heart for Snape - if she even allowed herself to think of him as an individual rather than en masse as a DE. Lily "detested" Mulciber for pranking M. Mcdonald with dark magic, being a budding DE and desiring to follow Voldemort. Is it hard to imagine that once she determined Snape was just like Mulciber in that regard, she detested him as well? I don't think it is, I think she began to detest him when she allowed herself to acknowledge what he had become characterwise. Further, imagine upon graduation when she was 99% certain they were all DEs - the detest she felt for all of them would not lessen, but grow in intensity due to the evil and corrupt deeds they were engaged in, imo.

Reference: HP Lexicon's summarization from canon of what Voldemort was doing during the first war: "Lord Voldemort begins to gather followers and gain power. The Death Eaters use the Unforgivable Curses and the years of his ascent to power are marked by disappearances, deaths, torture, terror and atrocities in both the wizarding and Muggle worlds. The Death Eaters wear the Dark Mark and send that sign into the air where they have killed."

posted by Pearl_Took
You can hate the actions of a person, the choices they make in life, without actually hating them. And you can even hope for their eventual redemption.

Oh! I agree. THis is what I have been meaning to say of Lily, though in a way different to your meaning, most likely.

Now, I am not a Christian, but I have read that one of the more important things about confession or was it redemption, I really don't remember now, was to hate the sin and not the sinner.

Lily for me was the epitome of everything good until Book7. I really loved her until then, even though we have very little information about her, because there was nothing to dislike her or find fault with her at all.

After TPT, for me Lily came across as not very caring, mixing the sin with the sinner. While she was right in breaking off with Snape because he was clearly in the wrong, by associating with death eater wanna bes, she is able to get along with her life very smoothly IMO. She is able to discard Snape and replace Sirius? in his place and was able to move on without a fuss IMO.

I still like Lily, but this point is where I differ from I think everyone :no:, because I felt, and please note this is only my opinion, that we should have had something to tell us Lily still loved the Snape who had been her best friend, should have thought about that Snape who introduced her to the wonderful world of magic, that Snape who cut across House lines and was openly friends with her, that she thought of Snape with anger and regret because he had chosen a side that was dark and evil and she should have felt betrayed that the Snape she knew as her best friend was now on the side that was actively hunting her and people like her, because his side felt muggleborns did not deserve to live.

It's because that is not there, I feel a bit let down by her.

For a woman who is the epitome of compassion, of courage, and of love most importantly, Jo did not allow her to show these feelings that would have omly lifted her higher IMO.

Oh! I agree. THis is what I have been meaning to say of Lily, though in a way different to your meaning, most likely.

Now, I am not a Christian, but I have read that one of the more important things about confession or was it redemption, I really don't remember now, was to hate the sin and not the sinner.

Lily for me was the epitome of everything good until Book7. I really loved her until then, even though we have very little information about her, because there was nothing to dislike her or find fault with her at all.

After TPT, for me Lily came across as not very caring, mixing the sin with the sinner. While she was right in breaking off with Snape because he was clearly in the wrong, by associating with death eater wanna bes, she is able to get along with her life very smoothly IMO. She is able to discard Snape and replace Sirius? in his place and was able to move on without a fuss IMO.

I still like Lily, but this point is where I differ from I think everyone :no:, because I felt, and please note this is only my opinion, that we should have had something to tell us Lily still loved the Snape who had been her best friend, should have thought about that Snape who introduced her to the wonderful world of magic, that Snape who cut across House lines and was openly friends with her, that she thought of Snape with anger and regret because he had chosen a side that was dark and evil and she should have felt betrayed that the Snape she knew as her best friend was now on the side that was actively hunting her and people like her, because his side felt muggleborns did not deserve to live.

It's because that is not there, I feel a bit let down by her.

For a woman who is the epitome of compassion, of courage, and of love most importantly, Jo did not allow her to show these feelings that would have omly lifted her higher IMO.

How would JKR have done this? Lily was dead and there was no one around who would have any reason to reveal a memory in this regard. Lily would not have written a letter to Sirius or Remus or any of her friends in which she wrote: 'oh by the way, I detest Snape for what he has become' - it is just unrealistic, imo. It is clear from the canon that Lily detested Death Eaters and she knew Snape was a Death Eater, so in a way, you have her thoughts on what Snape had become: a detested Death Eater.

How would JKR have done this? Lily was dead and there was no one around who would have any reason to reveal a memory in this regard. Lily would not have written a letter to Sirius or Remus or any of her friends in which she wrote: 'oh by the way, I detest Snape for what he has become' - it is just unrealistic, imo. It is clear from the canon that Lily detested Death Eaters and she knew Snape was a Death Eater, so in a way, you have her thoughts on what Snape had become: a detested Death Eater.

I really don't know how she could have done that in the books -- though I do know a paragraph would not have been too difficult for Jo.

After DH, she still could have given us that information in her inteviews; I am hoping for somthing like that this week on LC's podcast...

I really don't know how she could have done that in the books -- though I do know a paragraph would not have been too difficult for Jo.

I'm not sure. You write fanfiction, I believe? :) Well, I write as well, and I think it's understood that not everything can make it into the final cut of stories. Sometimes there's background information that needs to be sacrificed since it does nothing to advance the plot.

I hope JKR answers more in The Scottish Book!

After DH, she still could have given us that information in her inteviews; I am hoping for somthing like that this week on LC's podcast...

JKR never mentioned that in the podcast. (It was just released.) She only mentions Snape's bitterness for Harry was because Harry was living proof of Lily's preference to another man.

posted by beatifically
JKR never mentioned that in the podcast. (It was just released.) She only mentions Snape's bitterness for Harry was because Harry was living proof of Lily's preference to another man.

Ooooh! has it come? Off to hear it and will come back with more about Lily's lack of care about Snape, in case she has not said anything this time too!

*very disapoointed*

And yes I write fanfiction, and I suppose I can stretch it forever to give all the information needed, but Jo can make it up in the interviews -- simply because I don't want to wait for 10 years being the only one who sees Lily like this and really I am fighting a lonely and a losing battle! *very resigned*

Ooooh! has it come? Off to hear it and will come back with more about Lily's lack of care about Snape, in case she has not said anything this time too!

*very disapoointed*

She hasn't, actually. She mentions Lily in passing one other time, though.

And yes I write fanfiction, and I suppose I can stretch it forever to give all the information needed, but Jo can make it up in the interviews -- simply because I don't want to wait for 10 years being the only one who sees Lily like this and really I am fighting a lonely and a losing battle! *very resigned*

JKR could very much answer that in interviews if she was asked or JKR could put an answer on her website. JKR's a busy woman though . . . she's a mother and has to work with WB and Universal. She's quite busy.

Honestly, I think it's fair to deduce that Lily did think about him once in a while after she broke off the friendship. I mean, he used to be her best friend, it's only natural that she would think of him. I've ended a friendship that was unhealthy, and I still think about it sometimes. Lily obviously wasn't in love with Snape, so she didn't dwell on the past. I don't know why it'd be wrong of her to have thought of Snape less frequently, especially after she got out of Hogwarts. Lily was offered to join Voldemort, defied him another two times, became an active fighter against Voldemort and his Death Eaters, got married, and had a child. She had plenty of things tow orry about instead of her former friend.

May I remind you all that we still have Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=111984)? This thread should be focussed on Lily. It's perfectly fine to mention Snape in here, since he used to be important to Lily. But if the focus shifts to Snape and Lily is only mentioned in passing it is off topic in this thread. If Lily and Snape are equally the focus of the discussion it should go in the Joint Character Analysis thread. Thanks.

May I remind you all that we still have Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=111984)? This thread should be focussed on Lily. It's perfectly fine to mention Snape in here, since he used to be important to Lily. But if the focus shifts to Snape and Lily is only mentioned in passing it is off topic in this thread. If Lily and Snape are equally the focus of the discussion it should go in the Joint Character Analysis thread. Thanks.

OK, thanks. :) It's probably best if I reply to WickedWickedBoy's post in that thread, so I have quoted his post in full and my reply there. :)

I think the consideration here is becoming crossed. The conversation began with the suggestion that Lily would think of Snape and what he'd gotten himself into and she would be grief stricken about it - while she was in the Order and he was a DE. That is the point I was refuting. I believe her thoughts would be full of loathing, disgust and revulsion because of the activities Snape was involved in.

However, others seem to be suggesting that she might remember some old funny event from when she and Snape were 10 years old and still innocent for the most part. I think that might be part of the confusion involved in this particular discussion. In comparison, James too might remember something funny that occurred with Snape when they were both 11 and at Hogwarts, but that is not what we started off speaking about. :)

I believe her thoughts would be full of loathing, disgust and revulsion because of the activities Snape was involved in.

Maybe, but she can despise the actions she'd imagine he'd be doing, and still care about him as friend. I personally would think she would. If you suddenly start hating and despising your friends because of the mistakes they make, it means you weren't their friend in the first place. She can hate the actions and still care about the person, and she can be disappointed and at the same time feel bad about her friend. I personally think it would be kind of selfish to decide to hate him just because she feels the need to disassociate herself from dark deeds at any cost, including the cost of a friendship. This is why I believe she would still care about Severus, even if she doesn't think about him often. Lily seems a caring and generous person to me.

Maybe, but she can despise the actions she'd imagine he'd be doing, and still care about him as friend. I personally would think she would. If you suddenly start hating and despising your friends because of the mistakes they make, it means you weren't their friend in the first place. She can hate the actions and still care about the person, and she can be disappointed and at the same time feel bad about her friend. I personally think it would be kind of selfish to decide to hate him just because she feels the need to disassociate herself from dark deeds at any cost, including the cost of a friendship. This is why I believe she would still care about Severus, even if she doesn't think about him often. Lily seems a caring and generous person to me.

Well I respect your view, I just don't buy it for myself. I cannot imagine Lily thinking that Snape is out helping to kill her friends as well as strangers, torture them, mutilate their bodies, hang them from ceilings while crucioing them, watching them fed alive to snakes, causing terror and death to Muggles who don't even know Voldemort exists and thus, don't see it coming, knowing that she, her husband, her friends, or her loved ones may be next - and then think, well despite all of that, I still care about him as an old friend and hope that everything works out well for him.

Even if he was only a spy (which she wouldn't know), Snape was still assisting in achieving all of this.

So as I say, I respect that you believe that is possible, but in my view, it would be highly unlikely for Lily or anyone really, to think like that. Imo, instead of caring and hoping all went well for Snape, she would be angry at him, detest him and hope he'd be caught and sent to Azkaban. Imo, what you suggest, makes Lily sound like Bella, imo, who despite all of the atrocities Voldemort was enacting, continued to care for him. JKR distinguished that in her interview via podcast 131; Bella's behavior she considered wrong. Imo, Lily was the antithesis of Bella.

ps. I totally agree with the idea of not liking someone's actions, but still caring about the person. But only when those actions are simply poor - like petty crime or reckless driving or something along those lines. Not when the person is a villian, murderering and torturing people to death - or assisting in achieving those things. We are moving from the world of simple wrongs to pure evil.

Well I respect your view, I just don't buy it for myself.

I wsn't trying to sell you anything. I was expressing my point of view.

Well I respect your view, I just don't buy it for myself. I cannot imagine Lily thinking that Snape is out helping to kill her friends as well as strangers, torture them, mutilate their bodies, hang them from ceilings while crucioing them, watching them fed alive to snakes, causing terror and death to Muggles who don't even know Voldemort exists and thus, don't see it coming, knowing that she, her husband, her friends, or her loved ones may be next - and then think, well despite all of that, I still care about him as an old friend and hope that everything works out well for him.

Even if he was only a spy (which she wouldn't know), Snape was still assisting in achieving all of this.

So as I say, I respect that you believe that is possible, but in my view, it would be highly unlikely for Lily or anyone really, to think like that. Imo, instead of caring and hoping all went well for Snape, she would be angry at him, detest him and hope he'd be caught and sent to Azkaban.

ps. I totally agree with the idea of not liking someone's actions, but still caring about the person. But only when those actions are simply poor - like petty crime or reckless driving or something along those lines. Not when the person is a villian, murderering and torturing people to death - or assisting in achieving those things.

It is the past that makes our present and sets the tone for the future. That is why we study History, IMO, so that we don't make the mistakes of the past and we take from the past the good things and values that may have vanished now.

We don't look only at wars and dismiss the past as horrible nor do we look only at the good things and say the bad never happened.

For Lily, in Snape there was the good and the bad IMO.

Lily IMO is the epitome of compassion, love, sacrifice and courage spares not a single thought to a boy who has joined her enemy. While she may dislike the Snape with whom she broke off with, she also erases the Snape with whom she was very close.

That is for me not in tune to the way she has been portrayed. I am sure Jo would come out and say sooner or later that Lily did think of Snape with regret, anger and betrayal, and had she known he repented so much, she would have forgiven him. That is the character of Lily in all the 6 books, where she is so compassionate and where she is all for forgiveness.

But the Lily of TPT in the break up scene is not like that for me.

JMHO

Well, Lily was a fairly stubborn character too- much like her son. And this shows not only in her dealings with Snape, but also in her relationship with her own sister, Petunia- a relationship which was damaged by Petunia's jealousy and resentment, and never quite repaired despite the fact that the two girls were close before Lily got her Hogwarts letter (the scene by the swing in TPT seems to indicate that Petunia was behaving like a bossy but concerned older sister). In both cases, Lily discovered irreconcilable differences, tried to ignore or work around them (making excuses for Snape, promising to ask Dumbledore to change his mind about letting Petunia attend Hogwarts), and, when her efforts proved unsuccessful, moved on, accepting the fact that they'd alienated each other for good. I don't hold the moving on against her, to be honest, given that the fault, in my eyes, came from the other party and her actions seem in character- whatever little we do know of her character.

posted by Drusilla
I don't hold the moving on against her, to be honest, given that the fault, in my eyes, came from the other party and her actions seem in character- whatever little we do know of her character.

I don't either and I agree with you that Snape was the one at fault and that he did not see to his tragedy that Lily did not care for his friends and his group.

But I do feel that Jo should have told us a little more about Lily and her feelings about Snape, their breaking up and how she felt about Snape choosing the DE over her. The silence is what I really don't like personally.

We see so much from Snape's side and considering the fact she is his inspiration, we don't see anything from hers.

I agree we don't have much information about Lily. But we do know that she began dating James in 7th. I suppose he began maturing in 6th and the two of them started getting along fairly well. I imagine Lily, like most, enjoyed the Quidditch rivalry and attended the games, plus they were in the same house and had classes together. So it was only natural that the infatuation that Lily felt would start to bossom in 6th (James' too) and I'd imagine by the end of the year they were well set to start dating. I suppose more information will be available in the Scottish book since Jo tends to have thought all of this out already.

What has me curious is that Voldemort asked Lily (and James) to join him when they she was still a teen. Regulus joined up at 16, so it is possible he asked when she was in 6th. I would imagine the Order was also recruiting at that time, so it is possible that when she turned 17, she and the others joined up - they would have still be in their 6th year. I suppose that would have given her an impetus to hone her warrior skills; perhaps taking DADA classes more seriously. They may have even formed little sessions akin to the DA that Harry created in order to practice - of course they wouldn't have to do so in secret. That might have been something else that she did which caused her to become closer to James because he would have also been very into all of that. I would imagine it was a very exciting time for them all.

I agree we don't have much information about Lily. But we do know that she began dating James in 7th. I suppose he began maturing in 6th and the two of them started getting along fairly well. I imagine Lily, like most, enjoyed the Quidditch rivalry and attended the games, plus they were in the same house and had classes together. So it was only natural that the infatuation that Lily felt would start to bossom in 6th (James' too) and I'd imagine by the end of the year they were well set to start dating. I suppose more information will be available in the Scottish book since Jo tends to have thought all of this out already.

What has me curious is that Voldemort asked Lily (and James) to join him when they she was still a teen. Regulus joined up at 16, so it is possible he asked when she was in 6th. I would imagine the Order was also recruiting at that time, so it is possible that when she turned 17, she and the others joined up - they would have still be in their 6th year. I suppose that would have given her an impetus to hone her warrior skills; perhaps taking DADA classes more seriously. They may have even formed little sessions akin to the DA that Harry created in order to practice - of course they wouldn't have to do so in secret. That might have been something else that she did which caused her to become closer to James because he would have also been very into all of that. I would imagine it was a very exciting time for them all.

Yes we don't have much information about Lily. I wish we did. It would make me accept her and move on to other topics instead of contiously thinking about her apparent lack of feeling for Snape. :no:

She started going out with James in her 7th year and married him the next year? That would be '79 and they had Harry in '80.

Two whole years in School with Snape and not a word. And IMO their friendship did not gradually fall apart. Jo says as far as the others were concerned they were friends and then they were not. Not that their friendship was gradually falling apart.

As to why Voldemort asked for Lily to join him is, may be because of her friendship with Snape I feel. Voldemort must have known about Lily from Avery, Mulciber or other death eaters. They may have told him that Snape and Lily were best friends and that she was very clever, intelligent and a ace in Potions and Charms.

That could also be why Voldemort so readily agreed to spare Lily's life to Snape. He might have known from before, that Snape was friends with Lily and that apparently he was also in love with her.

Two whole years in School with Snape and not a word. And IMO their friendship did not gradually fall apart. Jo says as far as the others were concerned they were friends and then they were not. Not that their friendship was gradually falling apart.
Those two years of school were irrelevant to the storyline--other than the important fact that she started dating James in their seventh year. Whether she ever talked to Snape again or thought about him is also irrelevant to the storyline. We cannot, in all fairness, assume that she never thought of him or spoke to him again. He was probably in several of her classes, so she would have seen him on a regular basis. He lived near her and may have tried to visit. He may have even tried to change her mind about him. What we do know is they never resumed their friendship, and that was the part relevant to the storyline. We were shown the beginning of their friendship through to when it ended. Once they went to Hogwarts, it was all downhill from the sorting on. And even that entire backstory was in a few short scenes. Jo has always been very sparing in her backstory.

I will continue to protest about criticizing a character for what wasn't in canon. That's really unfair. It's very easy to create any number of complaints that can't be proved or disproved.

It's fun to try to fill in the blanks; to try to imagine what the characters were thinking and why they did what they did based on hints we see in canon. However, once we leave canon behind completely, we are just spinning our own personal fanfics--especially when we blame characters for what wasn't in print.

These are stories and the characters also have plot functions. Lily's character obviously contributed to Harry's big heart and his willingness to put the lives of others before his own. She also contributed to his innate decency and warm caring. She also had a strong sense of justice, which we saw in SWM. Harry inherited that, too. However, she also had some major plot functions, as well. She was offered her life and willingly gave it up. That meant that Harry survived Voldemort's AK, and Harry had lingering protection until Voldemort died.

She was offered her life because Snape begged for it. So, Jo needed to show that Snape loved Lily enough to want to save her. Hence the friendship. But the friendship had to have failed since Lily married James. So Jo had to show that, too.

posted by CBW
I will continue to protest about criticizing a character for what wasn't in canon. That's really unfair. It's very easy to create any number of complaints that can't be proved or disproved.

I respect your opinion and I would respectfully disagree with you. I simply wrote the way I see LIly with what I have read in the books and with what was I felt, missing in canon, that was important for me. That is all.

posted by CBW
However, once we leave canon behind completely, we are just spinning our own personal fanfics--especially when we blame characters for what wasn't in print.

I respect your opinion and I would respectfully disagree with you. I am speculating with what has been given in canon, which I feel is very little, considering the fact Lily was the factor for Snape's change and his inspiration for 16 years after her death.

To me, Lily and her thoughts about Snape, however little are very important, because I like Snape and for Snape, she was his love and inspiration and his ideal.

So I feel disapoointed when I see Snape pining for her for 16 years and so far we have not been shown her thoughts.

I live in hope, though. The maximum is 10 years for the Scottish Book.

Once they went to Hogwarts, it was all downhill from the sorting on. And even that entire backstory was in a few short scenes. Jo has always been very sparing in her backstory.

I would like to differ here as well. Jo says Lily may have liked Snape romantically had he not turned to the Dark Arts. That would mean for me, that their friendship was strong into their teens when such feelings may begin to arise.

I agree, Jo has always been sparing in her back story. That I feel is what makes all this discussion very intresting. Every character can be seen so differently by all of us, because of that I think.

Even if, it does make me yearn for more backstory and more and more....

How about a bit of cake, everyone? It's Christmas, after all.
http://www.become.com/pocketchange/birthday-cake-773619.jpg

*slices it*

And, just for a change of flavour (no pun intended!)- a new question: James's friends serve as Harry's link to his father, after a fashion, but we don't see any of Lily's friends getting in contact with Harry at all (let's not count Snape, for a minute :)). What does everyone think happened here? Did Lily lose touch with them, or were her best friends more likely to have been killed in the war, or does everyone just think that her and James's friend circles overlapped to a large degree and she was closest to his friends (she was obviously very close to the Marauders)?

Gods that looks like a good cake. *drools*

That's a good question, Drusilla. What could have happened, and which does seem to happen often in real life, is that she gradually lost touch with her Hogwarts friends, spending much more time with her friends in the Order - including James's friends. Her friends might have gone off, starting families and what not, so they might have been just as busy as Lily was. Perhaps some of her friends even joined the order - I know in a lot of fanfictions, people have Marlene McKinnon, Dorcas Meadows, and Alice Soon-to-be-Longbottom as her Hogwarts friends, and of course, all three were in the Order (all three had terrible fates, too :(). It's possible that all her Hogwarts friends were killed in the war, which would be very sad, but wouldn't really surprise me.

It's also possible that she just became the fifth Marauder, in a way, and spent all her time with James and the guys. The letter hints at how close she was with all three of them, and the fact that she trusted all of them with her life and the lives of her husband and child says a lot. Not to mention, she (and James) named Sirius godfather to Harry. :)

Merry Christmas.

Interesting question Drusilla and good answer LilyDreamsOn. I had a slightly different take on it. Sirius was named godfather, so that gave him a direct connection to Harry. Lily was popular so she likely had a number of good friends, but other friends who were just fond of her as well and visa versa. James too was popular, so it is likely that those people felt the same about him. It is quite normal for old friends to look from afar and say 'oh that is James and Lily's boy' - but most people won't come right up and say, your mom and I were friends, so I am going to barge into your life. :lol:. Most just say, 'I knew your mother and father well...blah blah blah...' if they get a chance to meet Harry.

Remus, was very fond of the Potters of course, but he had his furry little problem that he felt would cause others furry big problems. Dumbledore actually called him back into Harry's life and naturally he was fond of Harry because he had been fond of Lily and James. However, it is likely that he would have crossed paths with Harry any way because he was good friends with Sirius and a member of the Order. So that connection occurred as well and flourished.

But Lily's friends, if not in the Order, not teaching, etc., had no real connection with Harry and as I said, wouldn't likely just barge in on his life. I think Lily's best of friends were likely killed, because they would be more apt to seek Harry out. It is also possible they married and moved away - for example, with someone like Viktor Krum, and were settled in a foreign land. I think that must be the case because when it became evident that Harry was the 'chosen one', those types of super close friends (of Lily's) would come out of the wood work. Since they did not, they either had been killed or were out of touch with England altogether. Voldemort had not yet gone world wide.

I had an intrestion thought and sorry if its already been touched on but, I was wondering: Do you think Lily knew that Snape liked her, or do you thihnk she was too close to the situation and couldn't see it? After all she was attracted to James at the time and that might have blocked her from seeing anything. What do you think?
- Merry Christmas!!!

How about a bit of cake, everyone? It's Christmas, after all.
http://www.become.com/pocketchange/birthday-cake-773619.jpg

*slices it*

And, just for a change of flavour (no pun intended!)- a new question: James's friends serve as Harry's link to his father, after a fashion, but we don't see any of Lily's friends getting in contact with Harry at all (let's not count Snape, for a minute :)). What does everyone think happened here? Did Lily lose touch with them, or were her best friends more likely to have been killed in the war, or does everyone just think that her and James's friend circles overlapped to a large degree and she was closest to his friends (she was obviously very close to the Marauders)?

:drool::drool: Has a piece of cake and blinks! Holds out plate for seconds.

I know only of Mary McDonald.

Doracas Meadows, McKinnon and Alice were in the Order but was Lily friends with them in School too?

We don't hear about Mary. But that could be because of the war. James and Lily went into hiding once Lily was pregnant. Though, she may have written letters to Mary and others if any.

If she could keep in touch with Bathilda Bagshot to hear strange stories about Dumbledore, then I am sure Lily would have kept in touch. She does not seem the type to just forget.

Except with Snape IMO! :(

I also don't think that just because she was friends with James's frineds, she would forget all about hers. I just don't think so.

I also don't think that just because she was friends with James's frineds, she would forget all about hers. I just don't think so.

I agree she wouldn't just forget about them, but it's very common for people to just lose touch with school friends; my sister rarely even talks to her high school friends anymore (with a few exceptions, of course) and mainly hangs out with her Uni friends, or her boyfriend's friends. I could see that happening with Lily: making new friends in the Order, considering all the time she'd spend with them, what with being a "full-time fighter", and maybe keeping in touch with a few really close friends from Hogwarts (if she could). And of course, she would have the Marauders as friends. :)

And, just for a change of flavour (no pun intended!)- a new question: James's friends serve as Harry's link to his father, after a fashion, but we don't see any of Lily's friends getting in contact with Harry at all (let's not count Snape, for a minute :)). What does everyone think happened here? Did Lily lose touch with them, or were her best friends more likely to have been killed in the war, or does everyone just think that her and James's friend circles overlapped to a large degree and she was closest to his friends (she was obviously very close to the Marauders)?

Mmmm..thanks for the cake! :D

I have wondered about Lily's friends as well- with the exception of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, Lily's friends never play a role in the plot as James' friends do, and she seems to have grown quite close to his friends in later years, as Sirius is referred to as both James and Lily's best friend in PoA, and was named the godfather of their child, as well as his future guardian. Lily's letter indicates that she was close to Sirius, and Sirius seems to love Lily dearly as well; in Jo's interiew with Melissa and Emerson post-DH, she referred to James, Lily, and Harry as the three people that Sirius loved and cared about the most.

Jo has compared Lily's popularity to Ginny's. Ginny, as we see in the books, does have alot of friends, but she doesn't seem to be particulary close to any of them; in HBP, she starts spending all of her time with Harry, Ron, and Hermione after she breaks up with Dean. Ginny is outgoing and likable, but she doesn't seem to belong to a tight-knit group of friends the way Harry does; instead, she has alot of friends that she is somewhat close with, but none that she seems truly attached to and inseperable with. I think this may have been the case with Lily as well- we know that James was very popular, but he belonged to a very tight group of friends with Sirius, Remus, and Peter, so tight that they shared their darkest secrets with one another and trusted one another with their lives. James and Sirius were inseperable brothers, and were never seen apart from one another; Sirius even lived with James for a year. Lily may not have ever had that bond with another person; I think she had alot of good casual friends but none that she was really close with (Besides Snape, in their younger years) so that when she joined the Order and began fighting, her friendships drifted apart, especially when she had to go into hiding during her pregnancy with Harry, and spend the next two years confined in Godric's Hollow. In such isolated and dangerous circumstances, only the closest friends of the Potters could keep in touch with them, and those were James' friends, not Lily's.

It's likely that Lily, a kind and friendly woman, was friends with her fellow Order members, and maybe she was good friends with Marlene and Dorcas, both of whom met terrible fates during their lives. However, my conclusion is that Lily's friendships were simply not as strong as James', and that as her priorities changed as she prepared to join the Order out of school, she was no longer able to keep in touch with her own friends from school, and she had grown closer to her husband's friends when she began dating him in seventh year, and had been accepted as the Lady Marauder into their close group.

-LilyPod

Mmmm..thanks for the cake! :D

I have wondered about Lily's friends as well- with the exception of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, Lily's friends never play a role in the plot as James' friends do, and she seems to have grown quite close to his friends in later years, as Sirius is referred to as both James and Lily's best friend in PoA, and was named the godfather of their child, as well as his future guardian. Lily's letter indicates that she was close to Sirius, and Sirius seems to love Lily dearly as well; in Jo's interiew with Melissa and Emerson post-DH, she referred to James, Lily, and Harry as the three people that Sirius loved and cared about the most.

Jo has compared Lily's popularity to Ginny's. Ginny, as we see in the books, does have alot of friends, but she doesn't seem to be particulary close to any of them; in HBP, she starts spending all of her time with Harry, Ron, and Hermione after she breaks up with Dean. Ginny is outgoing and likable, but she doesn't seem to belong to a tight-knit group of friends the way Harry does; instead, she has alot of friends that she is somewhat close with, but none that she seems truly attached to and inseperable with. I think this may have been the case with Lily as well- we know that James was very popular, but he belonged to a very tight group of friends with Sirius, Remus, and Peter, so tight that they shared their darkest secrets with one another and trusted one another with their lives. James and Sirius were inseperable brothers, and were never seen apart from one another; Sirius even lived with James for a year. Lily may not have ever had that bond with another person; I think she had alot of good casual friends but none that she was really close with (Besides Snape, in their younger years) so that when she joined the Order and began fighting, her friendships drifted apart, especially when she had to go into hiding during her pregnancy with Harry, and spend the next two years confined in Godric's Hollow. In such isolated and dangerous circumstances, only the closest friends of the Potters could keep in touch with them, and those were James' friends, not Lily's.

It's likely that Lily, a kind and friendly woman, was friends with her fellow Order members, and maybe she was good friends with Marlene and Dorcas, both of whom met terrible fates during their lives. However, my conclusion is that Lily's friendships were simply not as strong as James', and that as her priorities changed as she prepared to join the Order out of school, she was no longer able to keep in touch with her own friends from school, and she had grown closer to her husband's friends when she began dating him in seventh year, and had been accepted as the Lady Marauder into their close group.

-LilyPod

I would respectfully disagree. Lily was a A popular, loving, kind hearted girl, who sees the good in everyone and has strong values, and who her friends care enough about that she feels she has to make excuses to them. She did so 'for years' about her friendship with Snape because he was doing things 'for years' that they felt was negative - and they cared about Lily. That description sounds like someone who would have a close group of friends. Even if just one or two. I would think they were either in the Order with her, or she kept in touch via owl because they had moved far away. Imo, Dumbledore wouldn't tell any wizards where Harry was when he lived with the Dursleys. There were just too many people who would have wanted to see him; both because he was the "boy who lived" and too, because others simply knew and loved Lily and James.

I would respectfully disagree. Lily was a A popular, loving, kind hearted girl, who sees the good in everyone and has strong values, and who her friends care enough about that she feels she has to make excuses to them. She did so 'for years' about her friendship with Snape because he was doing things 'for years' that they felt was negative - and they cared about Lily. That description sounds like someone who would have a close group of friends. Even if just one or two. I would think they were either in the Order with her, or she kept in touch via owl because they had moved far away. Imo, Dumbledore wouldn't tell any wizards where Harry was when he lived with the Dursleys. There were just too many people who would have wanted to see him; both because he was the "boy who lived" and too, because others simply knew and loved Lily and James.

Well, it is entirely possible that Lily had close friends in the Order- I just find it odd that none of them are ever mentioned, other than sending Hagrid pictures, and involved in the plot the way Sirius and Remus were, so I agree that they may have died or drifted away from Lily, especially when she was forced to lose contact with them as she went into hiding at the young age of nineteen, while she was pregnant. It just seems strange to me that we never hear about any of her friends coming to visit or being as involved with the Potters as the Marauders were. I do agree that she was a very kind girl, who obviously had friends that cared about her and wanted her to stop associating with Snape, and that she was a very loyal friend herself, but it just seemed to me that she didn't stay as close to her friends after school as James did to his. We have virtually no information on her friendships besides the one with Snape, though, so it is all just my own (probably wrong) speculation.

James' friends were like his brothers, so close that they were his family, and he ended up entrusting them with the safety of his family when the Potters were in danger, and giving them the location of his hiding place; he was able to stay close to them because they were all fighting in the Order, a rather small society vastly outnumbered by Death Eaters, according to Lupin. Lily's friends may have been in the Order, or they may not have, and she may have lost touch with them as her priorities shifted and she became a full time fighter. Nevertheless, she undoubtedly had alot of friends, and I do wonder about them, and just how close they were to her.

-LilyPod

Well, it is entirely possible that Lily had close friends in the Order- I just find it odd that none of them are ever mentioned, other than sending Hagrid pictures, and involved in the plot the way Sirius and Remus were, so I agree that they may have died or drifted away from Lily, especially when she was forced to lose contact with them as she went into hiding at the young age of nineteen, while she was pregnant. It just seems strange to me that we never hear about any of her friends coming to visit or being as involved with the Potters as the Marauders were. I do agree that she was a very kind girl, who obviously had friends that cared about her and wanted her to stop associating with Snape, and that she was a very loyal friend herself, but it just seemed to me that she didn't stay as close to her friends after school as James did to his. We have virtually no information on her friendships besides the one with Snape, though, so it is all just my own (probably wrong) speculation.

James' friends were like his brothers, so close that they were his family, and he ended up entrusting them with the safety of his family when the Potters were in danger, and giving them the location of his hiding place; he was able to stay close to them because they were all fighting in the Order, a rather small society vastly outnumbered by Death Eaters, according to Lupin. Lily's friends may have been in the Order, or they may not have, and she may have lost touch with them as her priorities shifted and she became a full time fighter. Nevertheless, she undoubtedly had alot of friends, and I do wonder about them, and just how close they were to her.

-LilyPod

Yeah, we just don't have any info on her. The thing is, it was so tangent to the story, it was one of those things that JKR didn't feel necessary. But we know she hung out with girls (remember when she was with them by the lake) - and I assume it was the same ones she made excuses to. But since we have so little canon, your speculation is as possible as mine. :lol:

I've never been able to square off with the idea of Alice (future) Longbottom being a friend of Lily's at school. The way she and Frank are described in GoF- as Aurors, and respected members of the wizarding community- makes me think they were at least a bit older than the Potters. If Lily left Hogwarts at eighteen and died at twenty-one after having had a baby who was a year old at the time of her death, and Alice was the same age, she (Alice) can't possibly have been an Auror of that standing if she'd only just finished her training (which, as per Tonks, takes three years).

I'm not really sure of what happened to Lily's friends, either. I do agree, perhaps they could have been hesitant to approach Harry- even Remus and Sirius didn't do it at first, it took a Hogwarts teaching appointment and a jailbreak respectively to bring them in contact with the boy - and even then Remus didn't admit to Harry just how well he'd known James and Lily. And it does seem like Lily grew closest to James's friends towards the end of her life, though she can't have lacked for female company at school.

The comparison to Ginny might be rather apt too, IMO. Ginny was quite popular at school, but we don't really see evidence of her having any particularly close friends from her own year, except Luna. And who knows, Lily's friends might have scattered and lost touch- it isn't impossible to see that happening, given that she spent the last three years of her life fighting in the Order, and then in hiding with James and Harry- plus, I can imagine life as a newlywed and, later, the mother of a child under two, wouldn't leave her a lot of time to reconnect with her old friends if they weren't in the Order (I don't mean that in any context except that she might have had concerns about their safety if she told them too much, given that the Order was a secret society of sorts).

So I feel disapoointed when I see Snape pining for her for 16 years and so far we have not been shown her thoughts.
How could we have been shown her thoughts? Harry is the POV character, and we would have needed pensieve memories to see her thoughts. And those memories would have been pointless since all they would have shown was the fact that she didn't resume the friendship. And why would it be important for her to think about him? He was the one carrying the torch. She moved on and fell in love with James. Snape was a sad part of her past. She ended their friendship because of Snape's bad choices. He didn't change his path to darkness until she was threatened with death. They were no longer in contact, so there would have been no way for her to reevaluate her feelings for him. She did put him behind her, like anyone would if their friends were on such a dark path. From time to time, it would have been natural for her to think about him and maybe worry about his path. But that was not relevant to the plot.

Regarding the new topic: I think that the war isolated people from each other. There was danger and suspicion. Lily was in the Order and probably did have friends there. Since it was hard to know who was or wasn't working for Voldemort, members of the Order probably did keep to themselves. I also think that Lily did become the fifth Marauder. And after she became pregnant, Dumbledore would have cautioned her to hide (even before Snape warned Dumbledore that Voldemort had targeted them). I don't know how much of the prophecy they knew, but he probably told them enough to justify hiding. And Dumbledore didn't need Snape to tell him that the Potters were in peril. He could do the math by himself. So Lily's contact with the outside became constrained, and then she died. There would have been no plot reason for her school chums to introduce themselves to Harry. Although there was for Sirius and Remus.

Furthermore, people do lose touch with very close friends after they leave school. I did. I moved around, and they moved around, and pretty soon we were out of touch.

How about a bit of cake, everyone? It's Christmas, after all.
http://www.become.com/pocketchange/birthday-cake-773619.jpg

*slices it*

That looks delicious. :drool:

And, just for a change of flavour (no pun intended!)- a new question: James's friends serve as Harry's link to his father, after a fashion, but we don't see any of Lily's friends getting in contact with Harry at all (let's not count Snape, for a minute :)). What does everyone think happened here? Did Lily lose touch with them, or were her best friends more likely to have been killed in the war, or does everyone just think that her and James's friend circles overlapped to a large degree and she was closest to his friends (she was obviously very close to the Marauders)?

You know, I've been wondering this since I was in elementary school. What happened to Lily's friends?

They could have died, which is a very depressing thought. Even though the first war wasn't as bad as the second, there were disappearances and deaths in the news really often. Mary probably was a victim. Another possibility is that her friends joined the Order and they died that way.

The most natural - and less depressing - way is if Lily just lost touch with them. As soon as she got out of Hogwarts, she joined and became a full time fighter of the Order. I think that's what got her much closer to Sirius, since he was one, too. It would have been difficult for Lily to contact others outside of the Order since she was so busy. In PS/SS, it said Lily didn't see her sister for years. Though that was most likely because of the tension between them, I do think that it must have been the same with Lily's other friends, if they weren't in the Order.

I've never been able to square off with the idea of Alice (future) Longbottom being a friend of Lily's at school. The way she and Frank are described in GoF- as Aurors, and respected members of the wizarding community- makes me think they were at least a bit older than the Potters. If Lily left Hogwarts at eighteen and died at twenty-one after having had a baby who was a year old at the time of her death, and Alice was the same age, she (Alice) can't possibly have been an Auror of that standing if she'd only just finished her training (which, as per Tonks, takes three years).

Oh, thank goodness, finally someone who thinks the same way about it as I do! I see fanfiction all the time that makes Lily and Alice best friends. Alice and Frank were Aurors, as you said, and they were very respected. It's highly unlikely a novice would be so highly regarded in the magical community, enough to make Bellatrix torture them to insanity. They must have been trained well, and there was barely any time between eighteen and 21.

How could we have been shown her thoughts? Harry is the POV character, and we would have needed pensieve memories to see her thoughts. And those memories would have been pointless since all they would have shown was the fact that she didn't resume friendship. And why would it be important for her to think about him? He was the one carrying the torch. She moved on and fell in love with James. Snape was a sad part of her past. She ended their friendship because of Snape's bad choices. He didn't change his path to darkness until she was threatened with death. They were no longer in contact, so there would have been no way for her to reevaluate her feelings for him. She did put him behind her, like anyone would if their friends were on such a dark path. From time to time it would have been natural for her to think about him and maybe worry about his path. But that was not relevant to the plot.

:tu: Well said! I don't see how we could have been shown the memories about how Lily felt and why it would be important. It would just show, as you said, that she ended the friendship. It would have been pretty pointless, really. TPT was supposed to show Snape's true loyalties, not how Lily felt.

I also don't see what's wrong with Lily if she didn't think about him much. She moved on with her life, fell in love and had a child. So, if she did think about Snape less, then I think Lily made a much healthier choice to move on with her life than remain stuck in the past.

Oh, thank goodness, finally someone who thinks the same way about it as I do! I see fanfiction all the time that makes Lily and Alice best friends. Alice and Frank were Aurors, as you said, and they were very respected. It's highly unlikely a novice would be so highly regarded in the magical community, enough to make Bellatrix torture them to insanity. They must have been trained well, and there was barely any time between eighteen and 21.

I forgot to add, there's one more thing that makes it impossible for Alice to have been an Auror of any standing if she was in fact the same age as Lily...she had a fifteen-month-old son too! And I don't think the Auror department is equipped to deal with pregnant trainees.. Tonks had finished her training a year before the point when we (and Harry) first meet her and was still a novice, but Frank and Alice sound like they were fairly high up in the Auror department.
The Potters probably knew them through the Order (they were in Moody's photograph, after all) but I don't see Lily and Alice as school pals. They might not even have been in Hogwarts at the same time, for all we know, though Lily getting friendly with Alice (not too much though, somehow I doubt being in hiding left her much time for new friends unless they were neighbours, like Bathilda) via Order work is a (slim) possibility.

The Potters probably knew them through the Order (they were in Moody's photograph, after all) but I don't see Lily and Alice as school pals. They might not even have been in Hogwarts at the same time, for all we know, though Lily getting friendly with Alice (not too much though, somehow I doubt being in hiding left her much time for new friends unless they were neighbours, like Bathilda) via Order work is a (slim) possibility.

Although I agree with the fact that the probably only knew each other through the Order, I believe they may have become closer as both were pregnant at the same time. Not only the binding aspect of a first pregnacy each, both would probably be feeling slightly helpless. Canon has shown that both were determined to help the Order yet the were both pregnant and therefore probably felt a little useless and the time where Voldemort was at his strongest. Being in the same situation possibly helped these women to bond and become friends.

I like Lily and think she was a good and kind girl but I think her flaw was that she had bad judgement about people. She stayed friends with Snape even when he was hanging out with Mulciber and Avery and calling the muggleborns in the school mudbloods, and then she dated and married James who liked to be mean and bully people for fun and who did alot of mean and nasty things to others and lied to her. I think Lily gave people the benefit of the doubt too much and chose the wrong friend/husband because she believed in being kind and they were both so mean to others and she chose to be with them anyway.

I like Lily and think she was a good and kind girl but I think her flaw was that she had bad judgement about people. She stayed friends with Snape even when he was hanging out with Mulciber and Avery and calling the muggleborns in the school mudbloods,

Well, Snape didn't hang out with Mulciber and Avery till later, judging by The Prince's Tale. She was friends with him, but when things got out of control, she ended the friendship.

and then she dated and married James who liked to be mean and bully people for fun and who did alot of mean and nasty things to others and lied to her. I think Lily gave people the benefit of the doubt too much and chose the wrong friend/husband because she believed in being kind and they were both so mean to others and she chose to be with them anyway.

Keep in mind that canon said James changed. By the time she dated him, he was a different person, a person good enough for her. And James never lied to her, he just . . . didn't tell her he and Snape continued to hex each other.

IMO, Lily's flaw is that she was too hot headed and really stubborn.

and then she dated and married James who liked to be mean and bully people for fun and who did alot of mean and nasty things to others and lied to her. I think Lily gave people the benefit of the doubt too much and chose the wrong friend/husband because she believed in being kind and they were both so mean to others and she chose to be with them anyway.

I'm curious: where in the canon does it say that James "liked to be mean and bully people for fun" and "did a lot of mean and nasty things to others"? On the whole, James and Sirius were compared to the Weasley twins - pranksters, thought to be "wonderful" by everyone (well nearly everyone). Sure they got landed in detention a lot, but so did the twins. Then we have SWM, but to be fair, even Dumbledore commented on the fact that the James/Snape relationship was very similar to the Harry/Draco one. Their behaviour in this scene wouldn't necessarily be applied to everyone. IMO, if even McGonagall could speak of James and Sirius as mere pranksters, I doubt anything they did was malicious and nasty. Hagrid thought back in amusement of what they did; again, Hagrid isn't one to find dark things funny, is he? He, along with many others, have said some very nice things about James, and I don't think their opinions can be brushed under the carpet.

Anyways, with that in mind, as beatifically said, he did mature and he did eventually stop pranking around. Lily was Head Girl, and James was Head Boy - they were both equals in that regard. Lily was an intelligent girl and knew what wasn't good for herself - she cut off an unhealthy relationship when it just went too far, she didn't dwell on the past and mope around, she didn't let her sister get to her and she held her head high. She was a strong girl; she stood up for her beliefs and spoke her mind. If there was anything about James that she really didn't like, I highly doubt she would have dated him, let alone married him.


IMO, Lily's flaw is that she was too hot headed and really stubborn.

I agree - and this is what a lot of people think, as well. In countless fanfics, they nickname her Tiger Lily because of her hot headedness. I find it quite amusing, actually.

Well, Snape didn't hang out with Mulciber and Avery till later, judging by The Prince's Tale. She was friends with him, but when things got out of control, she ended the friendship.
Well, but that was only when he personally insulted her and we don't know how long he had been hanging around with them and using the word mudblood and she was still friends with him until he embarassed her in front of a crowd and proved her friends right who didn't want her to hang out with him.

Keep in mind that canon said James changed. By the time she dated him, he was a different person, a person good enough for her. And James never lied to her, he just . . . didn't tell her he and Snape continued to hex each other.

IMO, Lily's flaw is that she was too hot headed and really stubborn.

Well, I don't really see it that way since he kept hexing Snape and I think he pretended to change so she would like him but we never even saw proof that he changed- Remus and Sirius say so, but that isn't enough to convince me because they are his friends. But I am not trying to say that James was worse for Lily than Snape, just that they were both mean and I am surprised that Lily liked Snape enough to be his best friend for seven years and that she married James because she was so kind and maybe she just married him because it was a war and she wanted something to hold on to? I don't understand why she would love him.

I'm curious: where in the canon does it say that James "liked to be mean and bully people for fun" and "did a lot of mean and nasty things to others"? On the whole, James and Sirius were compared to the Weasley twins - pranksters, thought to be "wonderful" by everyone (well nearly everyone). Sure they got landed in detention a lot, but so did the twins. Then we have SWM, but to be fair, even Dumbledore commented on the fact that the James/Snape relationship was very similar to the Harry/Draco one. Their behaviour in this scene wouldn't necessarily be applied to everyone. IMO, if even McGonagall could speak of James and Sirius as mere pranksters, I doubt anything they did was malicious and nasty. Hagrid thought back in amusement of what they did; again, Hagrid isn't one to find dark things funny, is he? He, along with many others, have said some very nice things about James, and I don't think their opinions can be brushed under the carpet.


Well, James laughs in SWM while he is bullying Snape and threatens to take off his underpants and it says that snape pulls out his wand like he was expecting to be attacked and Harry sees in the detention files that James and Sirius got in trouble alot and blew up that kid's head and Sirius says that James was an idiot. And Lily says that James hexes people who annoy him and I think Remus says that James hexed people for fun. and I thought Lily had really strong morals and wouldn't date a bully, and she dates James when he stops supposedly but I don't see how his bullying nature went away and I think he only stopped for her (and he still did it when she wasn't around) and that isn't enough to convince me that he is a kind person like she is. So I think Lily should have married Remus who didn't bully others and who was kind but she married James and I am wondering why and I don't think she made a good choice because I thought she and James were too different, because she was always kind and he liked being mean and cruel to people for fun and when he grew up he wanted to leave her alone in the house while he went on "excursions" and had fun and she was in danger.

I just like Lily but I think she was naive and I think she could have done alot better than Snape for a best friend and James for a husband.

I'm curious: where in the canon does it say that James "liked to be mean and bully people for fun" and "did a lot of mean and nasty things to others"? On the whole, James and Sirius were compared to the Weasley twins - pranksters, thought to be "wonderful" by everyone (well nearly everyone). Sure they got landed in detention a lot, but so did the twins. Then we have SWM, but to be fair, even Dumbledore commented on the fact that the James/Snape relationship was very similar to the Harry/Draco one. Their behaviour in this scene wouldn't necessarily be applied to everyone. IMO, if even McGonagall could speak of James and Sirius as mere pranksters, I doubt anything they did was malicious and nasty. Hagrid thought back in amusement of what they did; again, Hagrid isn't one to find dark things funny, is he? He, along with many others, have said some very nice things about James, and I don't think their opinions can be brushed under the carpet.

Anyways, with that in mind, as beatifically said, he did mature and he did eventually stop pranking around. Lily was Head Girl, and James was Head Boy - they were both equals in that regard. Lily was an intelligent girl and knew what wasn't good for herself - she cut off an unhealthy relationship when it just went too far, she didn't dwell on the past and mope around, she didn't let her sister get to her and she held her head high. She was a strong girl; she stood up for her beliefs and spoke her mind. If there was anything about James that she really didn't like, I highly doubt she would have dated him, let alone married him.

I agree - and this is what a lot of people think, as well. In countless fanfics, they nickname her Tiger Lily because of her hot headedness. I find it quite amusing, actually.


I agree. A girl like Lily wouldn't fall in love with an 'insolent, ignorant, toe-rag' she fell in love with the man he became.

~WendyPotter:rave:

I just like Lily but I think she was naive and I think she could have done alot better than Snape for a best friend and James for a husband.

I don't believe that JKR was attempting to show that Harry had a naive and simple-minded mother or a cruel and decietful father. JKR often pointed out that Harry was just like his parents, both of them, in many ways. I don't believe Harry was in general decietful, cruel, naive or simple-minded either. So I would respectfully disagree with that depiction. :)

Well, but that was only when he personally insulted her and we don't know how long he had been hanging around with them and using the word mudblood and she was still friends with him until he embarassed her in front of a crowd and proved her friends right who didn't want her to hang out with him.

The Mudblood comment was the last straw, not the only reason why she ended the friendship. It was Snape's attraction to the Dark Arts, friendships with future Death Eaters and ideas that supported pureblood supremacy which ended the friendship, not SWM alone.

Well, I don't really see it that way since he kept hexing Snape and I think he pretended to change so she would like him but we never even saw proof that he changed- Remus and Sirius say so, but that isn't enough to convince me because they are his friends.

I am not going to answer that claim here, since this isn't the thread. If you're interested in my thoughts, you can read my post here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=4884477#post4884477). :)

But I am not trying to say that James was worse for Lily than Snape, just that they were both mean and I am surprised that Lily liked Snape enough to be his best friend for seven years and that she married James because she was so kind and maybe she just married him because it was a war and she wanted something to hold on to? I don't understand why she would love him.

Maybe because he was her happy thought? James wasn't a completely horrible person - he hated the Dark Arts, Voldemort, and prejudice against Blood. He had the same ideals as she did, so naturally she went out with him.

So I think Lily should have married Remus who didn't bully others and who was kind

Why Remus? I didn't see much chemistry between them. Lily could have dated someone else in her year or outside of Hogwarts.

he wanted to leave her alone in the house while he went on "excursions" and had fun and she was in danger.

Keep in mind that James was stuck in the cottage for two years. I don't know about you, but I'd be itching to get out of a house if I was stuck in there for that long!

Also I'd like to add that there is a difference between wanting to do something and actually doing it. Plenty of people fast for religious purposes and I'm positive they want to eat and/or drink during that time. Does that somehow lessen their struggle? No, it just adds to their devotion. There isn't any canon that says James actually left them. James put his family before his own desires.

Well, I don't really see it that way since he kept hexing Snape and I think he pretended to change so she would like him

There's nothing in the canon to even hint at that.

but we never even saw proof that he changed- Remus and Sirius say so, but that isn't enough to convince me because they are his friends.

And wouldn't his friends know him best? They were able to admit they were all "arrogant berks" back then - if they were able to see themselves from that perspective, then I feel they were not being biased at all.

and that she married James because she was so kind and maybe she just married him because it was a war and she wanted something to hold on to? I don't understand why she would love him.

Lily and James were in love - that's canon. Her patronus was a doe to go with his stag patronus, which meant James was her happiest thought. IMO none of that indicates any sign of her just marrying him for the sake of it.

Well, James laughs in SWM while he is bullying Snape and threatens to take off his underpants and it says that snape pulls out his wand like he was expecting to be attacked

Probably not his proudest moment, but Harry himself had moments he was not proud of, either, as did Ron and Hermione, and plenty of other respectable, lovable characters. If we were to judge all the characters for things they did in their youth, then almost everyone could be seen negatively.

and Harry sees in the detention files that James and Sirius got in trouble alot and blew up that kid's head

I can't have been the only one to see this as just a joke, the same as the Weasley twins turning Neville into a canary.

and Sirius says that James was an idiot. And Lily says that James hexes people who annoy him and I think Remus says that James hexed people for fun.

I can't remember where Remus says that... point is, apparently the rest of the student body did the exact same thing: there was a point back in the Marauders' fifth year where they couldn't walk down the halls without being lifted by their ankles. That's exactly what happened to Snape in SWM, and it appeared to have happened to tons of students. Hexing for fun is a common thing in Hogwarts.

and I thought Lily had really strong morals and wouldn't date a bully, and she dates James when he stops supposedly but I don't see how his bullying nature went away

Well "bully" kind of up to everyone's opinion, so...

Well, the thing is, there's only evidence to support the idea that he DID mature. There's nothing to give the idea that he DIDN'T. Also, almost everyone does mature at some point, why should James be abnormal in this regard?

and I think he only stopped for her (and he still did it when she wasn't around) and that isn't enough to convince me that he is a kind person like she is.

What in the canon hints at this idea? I'm actually curious.

He only continued to hex Snape - and that, as we hear from Remus, was due to the fact that Snape never missed a chance to hex James and the latter couldn't be expected to take that lying down, could he?

So I think Lily should have married Remus who didn't bully others and who was kind but she married James and I am wondering why and I don't think she made a good choice because I thought she and James were too different, because she was always kind and he liked being mean and cruel to people for fun and when he grew up he wanted to leave her alone in the house while he went on "excursions" and had fun and she was in danger.

Okay, first of all: as much as I'm sure Lily loved Remus as a friend, why would she marry someone she didn't love romantically? She loved James, isn't that eough?

Again, where in the canon does it say that James liked being mean and cruel to people for fun? In DH, Lily defended James against Snape's remarks. If what James was doing was so cruel and mean, why on earth would she defend him?

And lastly, can anyone blame James for wanting a bit of fresh air? They were in hiding for two years. That's tough to go through. That doesn't mean James didn't love Lily and Harry with every fiber of his being. He died to give them a little more time, a small hope to live. He gave up his life for them when there was little hope of them suriving anyways. He did this without hesitation. And, despite being cooped up for so long, he was still able to play with Harry and be a great father for the child. IMO those are all great things in a husband, and I'm sure Lily saw that.


IMO, Lily was a very intelligent girl and she knew what was right and what wasn't. I think she was one of the most trustworthy characters in the series - there was nothing to ever doubt her character (well people suspected she was a Death Eater but that was completely unfounded). Everything in the canon, and everything Jo has ever told us, states she was in love with James. IMO that has a lot of merit in it. The books are very much about love, and if Lily and James's love, the love that created Harry (the most loving person in the book), was false or in any way unworthy, it wouldn't put much weight to Jo's theme of love in the books.

And wouldn't his friends know him best? They were able to admit they were all "arrogant berks" back then - if they were able to see themselves from that perspective, then I feel they were not being biased at all.
But they just say that he changed and we never actually see it in the books is all I am saying and I don't like that because I needed to see a memory of James standing up against bullying for me to like him because I hate bullying so much, and that is all we ever saw of him through the memories that he seemed very full-of-himself and arrogant. And he should have at least told Lily about hexing Snape even if it was mutual because he had promised her that he wouldn't and I don't think Lily suspected it because she believed the best about people and just like she was stubborn that Snape wasn't becoming bad she was stubborn that James had really changed.

Lily and James were in love - that's canon. Her patronus was a doe to go with his stag patronus, which meant James was her happiest thought. IMO none of that indicates any sign of her just marrying him for the sake of it.
Oh, i know they were in love, and that Lily loved him I just don't understand why she loved him or why she married him so young if it wasn't for the war because she got pregnant at nineteen and probably married him at eighteen and she had hated him for six years and suddenly she dated and married him with in two years and that is why their romance felt very forced to me and I don't understand how/why Lily went from hating him to loving him, even if he did mature. I've know guys who I hated who matured and I didn't hate them anymore but that didn't mean I fell in love and married them! It feels very contrived and unbelievable to me, that a guy who was a mean bully for so long could suddenly change and a kind girl like Lily could fall for him after hating him for six years.. I know that it happened but I think it's unrealistic.

I can't remember where Remus says that... point is, apparently the rest of the student body did the exact same thing: there was a point back in the Marauders' fifth year where they couldn't walk down the halls without being lifted by their ankles. That's exactly what happened to Snape in SWM, and it appeared to have happened to tons of students. Hexing for fun is a common thing in Hogwarts.
Well, one of them says that James "stopped hexing people just for the fun of it" in seventh year. and you are right that "everybody did it" and James did it too because he wanted to be cool and do the popular thing and Lily was so different because she wasn't afraid to be friends with an outcast and that is why I don't understand why she liked a crowd-follower like James when it was so important to her to stand up for what she believed in.

Well, the thing is, there's only evidence to support the idea that he DID mature. There's nothing to give the idea that he DIDN'T. Also, almost everyone does mature at some point, why should James be abnormal in this regard?
Well maybe he did but I don't see how maturing a bit makes him a great person. Like Jo said in the interview with Draco- he grew up and "sobered" but he still didn't become a great person and that is how I see James as well that maybe he grew up and calmed down but still wasn't all that great of a person because it is unrealistic to me if a mean bully changes to a hero in a short amount of time even if they grow up I think his nature would be the same even if he learned to control himself.

He only continued to hex Snape - and that, as we hear from Remus, was due to the fact that Snape never missed a chance to hex James and the latter couldn't be expected to take that lying down, could he?
Well I think he should have told Lily because she deserved to know that he was fighting with her old friend and he hid it from her which I think was deceitful and I think shows immaturity because I think honesty is important in a relationship.

Okay, first of all: as much as I'm sure Lily loved Remus as a friend, why would she marry someone she didn't love romantically? She loved James, isn't that eough?
Oh I know she didn't love Remus but I just like them better as a couple because they are such great people and they are both so kind and insightful. Jo did say that Remus was fond of Lily but did not compete with James probably because he was scared of James because he saw how James treated Snape who he was jealous of over Lily, and Remus had his furry problem to keep secret so he didn't want to get on James' bad side and couldn't tell Lily how he felt.

Again, where in the canon does it say that James liked being mean and cruel to people for fun? In DH, Lily defended James against Snape's remarks. If what James was doing was so cruel and mean, why on earth would she defend him?
Well she said that he didn't do dark magic but she also called him a toerag and told him in SWM that he was an arrogant bully and was looking at him with dislike and said that he made her sick because he hexed people all the time.

And lastly, can anyone blame James for wanting a bit of fresh air? They were in hiding for two years. That's tough to go through. That doesn't mean James didn't love Lily and Harry with every fiber of his being. He died to give them a little more time, a small hope to live. He gave up his life for them when there was little hope of them suriving anyways. He did this without hesitation. And, despite being cooped up for so long, he was still able to play with Harry and be a great father for the child. IMO those are all great things in a husband, and I'm sure Lily saw that.
Well I don't blame him for being restless but the letter made it sound like if he'd had his cloak he would have been going out on little excursions, and I thought Lily should have put her foot down and he should have shown more concern for her.

And like I said I like Lily but I think she was too nice for her own good because she let Snape say mean things about her sister and treat her badly and he never listened to her and hung out with people who hated her and she just let it go and stood by him until SWM and then she got with James who treated her badly because he hid things from her and picked on her friend and was very reckless and irresponsible to actually consider going on excursions if only he had had his cloak and Lily always seemed so selfless because she let them get away with it all.

And like I said I like Lily but I think she was too nice for her own good because she let Snape say mean things about her sister and treat her badly and he never listened to her and hung out with people who hated her and she just let it go and stood by him until SWM and then she got with James who treated her badly because he hid things from her and picked on her friend and was very reckless and irresponsible to actually consider going on excursions if only he had had his cloak and Lily always seemed so selfless because she let them get away with it all.
I think she cut James more slack than Severus, because he was in her house, and she didn't seem to understand all the activities of the Marauders. She wouldn't believe Snape when he told her that Lupin was a werewolf.

Lily was naive, but there's no doubt she was attracted to James in spite of what she saw in his behavior. She seemed to hold Severus to a higher standard of what she considered "dark." I think Lily just didn't know alot about what James did on a regular basis.

A general reminder: We do have a thread for the Marauders, so if you want to discuss their dynamics, please go to The Marauders: Group Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=112100). :)

Also, please remember to post according to REVISED: Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108021)!

I think she cut James more slack than Severus, because he was in her house, and she didn't seem to understand all the activities of the Marauders. She wouldn't believe Snape when he told her that Lupin was a werewolf.

Actually, Lily's reply to Snape made it sound like she was defensive of Remus. Her voice was very cold - not disbelieving, befuddled, pleading or suspicious. I think she liked Lupin; she didn't strike me as the prejudice type, so even if she was not sure, she likely felt that if Snape were correct, it was none of their business and she didn't want Lupin to get hurt. I think that was very admirable of her at such a young age.


Lily was naive, but there's no doubt she was attracted to James in spite of what she saw in his behavior. She seemed to hold Severus to a higher standard of what she considered "dark." I think Lily just didn't know alot about what James did on a regular basis.

I respect your view, but how could Lily be naive - simple minded - when it came to James and at the same time, sophisticated enough to hold Snape to some impossibly high standard of 'dark'? Either she was not naive and saw Snape and James for who they were, or she was naive and saw nothing, imo.

Well, I don't really see it that way since he kept hexing Snape and I think he pretended to change so she would like him but we never even saw proof that he changed- Remus and Sirius say so, but that isn't enough to convince me because they are his friends.
The books are over and all the deceptions and concealed information has been revealed. No one has ever contradicted or corrected what has been said about James reforming, so it did happen.

Well, James laughs in SWM while he is bullying Snape and threatens to take off his underpants and it says that snape pulls out his wand like he was expecting to be attacked
James called him Snivellus and Snape reaached for his wand. For all we know James just intended to insult Snape, but Snape tried to get a hex in first. However, James had faster reflexes.

This isn't the James or Snape threads, but we need to judge all the characters by what they became as adults, not what they did as teens.

But they just say that he changed and we never actually see it in the books is all I am saying and I don't like that because I needed to see a memory of James standing up against bullying for me to like him because I hate bullying so much, and that is all we ever saw of him through the memories that he seemed very full-of-himself and arrogant. And he should have at least told Lily about hexing Snape even if it was mutual because he had promised her that he wouldn't and I don't think Lily suspected it because she believed the best about people and just like she was stubborn that Snape wasn't becoming bad she was stubborn that James had really changed.

I have yet to find a solid good reason why JKR would include that scene in OotP if James never changed. The point of that conversation with Remus and Sirius was so Harry and the reader knew James grew out of the way he was at fifteen. If she really wanted to let Harry and us know that he never grew up, she would have included a contradiction in the books. However, she didn't. If she included a scene that showed him grown up, it would have been a redundant message. Harry already knew, so why should it be repeated?

The books are over. It's a fact since nothing has contradicted it.

Oh, i know they were in love, and that Lily loved him I just don't understand why she loved him or why she married him so young if it wasn't for the war because she got pregnant at nineteen and probably married him at eighteen and she had hated him for six years and suddenly she dated and married him with in two years and that is why their romance felt very forced to me and I don't understand how/why Lily went from hating him to loving him, even if he did mature. I've know guys who I hated who matured and I didn't hate them anymore but that didn't mean I fell in love and married them! It feels very contrived and unbelievable to me, that a guy who was a mean bully for so long could suddenly change and a kind girl like Lily could fall for him after hating him for six years.. I know that it happened but I think it's unrealistic.

It is completely normal for Lily to have the change in feeling. Actually, she never even hated him to begin with.

MA: How did they get together? She hated James, from what we’ve seen.

JKR: Did she really? You're a woman, you know what I'm saying. [Laughter.]

It sounds a lot more like that Lily was attracted to James, but refused to go out with him until he grew up.

Well maybe he did but I don't see how maturing a bit makes him a great person. Like Jo said in the interview with Draco- he grew up and "sobered" but he still didn't become a great person and that is how I see James as well that maybe he grew up and calmed down but still wasn't all that great of a person because it is unrealistic to me if a mean bully changes to a hero in a short amount of time even if they grow up I think his nature would be the same even if he learned to control himself.

I beg to differ that someone could change that quickly. I have been bullied by someone and by the next year, she was a completely different person. I bullied someone once, and I felt horrible for what I did a few months later. Everyone matures in their own way, and sometimes it takes a longer or shorter amount of period for that to happen.

James was never like Draco. Even when he was fifteen and bullied people, he hated the Dark Arts and didn't support pureblood supremacy. Lily most likely knew this since she, uh, dated him and saw his reaction when Snape called her a Mudblood.

Oh I know she didn't love Remus but I just like them better as a couple because they are such great people and they are both so kind and insightful. Jo did say that Remus was fond of Lily but did not compete with James probably because he was scared of James because he saw how James treated Snape who he was jealous of over Lily, and Remus had his furry problem to keep secret so he didn't want to get on James' bad side and couldn't tell Lily how he felt.

Two great people don't have to fall in love. Harry and Hermione were both great, but they never fell in love.

Well I don't blame him for being restless but the letter made it sound like if he'd had his cloak he would have been going out on little excursions, and I thought Lily should have put her foot down and he should have shown more concern for her.

The letter said he was getting restless. Just because he was restless doesn't mean he didn't care about her. He wanted to be out in the fresh air - is that so wrong?

Even though the Invisibility Cloak was gone, we never hear of James leaving Lily and Harry before Dumbledore gets the Cloak. Dumbledore only knew about it shortly before they died.

I think she cut James more slack than Severus, because he was in her house, and she didn't seem to understand all the activities of the Marauders.

I respect your opinion, but I think Lily cut Snape a lot more slack than James. He was her best friend and she made excuses for him for years. He consorted with people that aspired to be part of a group aiming to kill and torture people like Lily. Lily was friends with him and she knew that.

[quote]She wouldn't believe Snape when he told her that Lupin was a werewolf.

Remus' lycanthropy wasn't Lily's business to begin with.

But they just say that he changed and we never actually see it in the books is all I am saying and I don't like that because I needed to see a memory of James standing up against bullying for me to like him because I hate bullying so much, and that is all we ever saw of him through the memories that he seemed very full-of-himself and arrogant.
We also saw him playing with Harry when he was a year old and risking his life for that of his wife and son. Again, people change a lot in many ways from age 16 to 21 and I trust Lily's judgement that she married the man for her.

I have yet to find a solid good reason why JKR would include that scene in OotP if James never changed. The point of that conversation with Remus and Sirius was so Harry and the reader knew James grew out of the way he was at fifteen. If she really wanted to let Harry and us know that he never grew up, she would have included a contradiction in the books. However, she didn't. If she included a scene that showed him grown up, it would have been a redundant message. Harry already knew, so why should it be repeated?
That is a good point but why not show it? Why not show us a good James because all we are shown are two memories where James picks on people. And I don't see how he could just become this great person all of a sudden. I know you said that people can feel bad about picking on someone once but Lily said that James did it all the time and Remus does say that James did it for fun- it was fun to him to hex people? And maybe I am just thinking too much into this because it is true that no one every contradicts it because James is dead and they can't talk bad about him, except Snape who he was still hexing in his seventh year. So maybe he did stop in his last year but I don't think that makes up for the six years and then picking on Snape in seventh year (or Snape hexing him- I am not sure who to believe about this).

It is completely normal for Lily to have the change in feeling. Actually, she never even hated him to begin with.

MA: How did they get together? She hated James, from what we’ve seen.

JKR: Did she really? You're a woman, you know what I'm saying. [Laughter.]

It sounds a lot more like that Lily was attracted to James, but refused to go out with him until he grew up.

I don't think she liked him at all because it says she is looking at him with "great dislike" and she says he makes her sick. But I don't think she hated him because she doesn't seem like a hater.

James was never like Draco. Even when he was fifteen and bullied people, he hated the Dark Arts and didn't support pureblood supremacy. Lily most likely knew this since she, uh, dated him and saw his reaction when Snape called her a Mudblood.
I know that he wasn't like Draco because they had different problems that James hexed/bullied and Draco called people mudblood but I think they are different in beliefs but alot alike as characters- Jo said that Draco calmed down as an adult but he was never a great person and that is how I see James too that maybe he stopped bullying but he didn't become an awesome person which is what I think Lily deserved.

Two great people don't have to fall in love. Harry and Hermione were both great, but they never fell in love.
That is true and I was just using Remus as an example of someone I think is equal to Lily she could have married someone else I just don't think James was nice enough for her but she loved him so that is important.

Although maybe I am not talking about Lily enough so I will just say that everyone used to say after HBP that it was Dumbledore who saw too much good in people but I think that character was actually Lily because we see the two boys who she loves both do mean things to her and others and she seems to see the good in James and Snape anyway.

Silver Ink Pot- Maybe you are right that Lily cut James too much slack? Or she didn't know about the things he did? I would not like to think that Lily was unaware of her boyfriend's actions but maybe that is how it was. Maybe Lily saw too much good in James and trusted him too much. But I do not think that she cut Snape more slack because she says in SWM that they are as bad as each other. I felt really bad for Lily in that scene because she was insulted in front of everybody and then she had to yell at James in front of a crowd poor Lily.

I got this idea from another forum by another poster and I decided to take it a bit further here.

I think Lily became impressed with James after she heard, perhaps a one - sided view of what happened in the Shrieking Shack IMO.

the DH --- TPT
The intensity of his gaze made her blush.

'They don't use dark magic, though.' She dropped her voice. 'And you're being really ungrateful. I heard what happened the other night. You went sneaking down that tunnel by the Whomping Willow and James Potter saved you from whatever's there__'

Snape's whole face contorted and he spluttered. 'Saved? Saved? ou think he was playing the hero? He was saving his neck and his friends' too! You are not going to -- I won't let you--'

The SWM was after werewolf incident and it was in the SWM that Lily looked like she was begining to crush on James.

How did Lily know Snape was rescued by James in a very heroic manner from some monster that was in the shack before Snape told her?

She also does not say anything about Sirius being the one who sent Snape there. So I think she did not know the full story. The way she mentions the incident, I think she was not aware of Sirius's role in the whole incident.

That paragraph where she defends James against Snape is the first time we see Lily talking for James, calling Snape ungrateful, a pretty strong word and yet she does not show any contempt for Sirius's thoughtlessness for a so called prank that could have ended horribly. I feel she did not know the whole story.

How did she hear about the werewolf incident? Did James and Sirius talk about how James rescued Snape and she overheard them or perhaps they spoke deliberately where she would overhear, because she only overhears about James's bravery and not about Sirius's thoughlessness IMO.

Was Lily perhaps misled to think that Snape went away on his own and James Potter somehow went there and saved him, risking his life for his enemy, to make James look a hero in her eyes? And that slowly turned to a crush and later something more?

It looked that way to me, but I could be wrong.

The entire post is my opinion only.

I don't think she liked him at all because it says she is looking at him with "great dislike" and she says he makes her sick. But I don't think she hated him because she doesn't seem like a hater.

No, of course not. Lily knew James saved Snape's life, and I personally think that it lifted her view in him.

That is true and I was just using Remus as an example of someone I think is equal to Lily she could have married someone else I just don't think James was nice enough for her but she loved him so that is important.

I disagree that Lily should have married anyone else instead of the love of her life, her happy thought.

EDIT - TGW, I think it probably spread around the school. I doubt James and Sirius would talk about it since it touched closely on Remus' furry little problem.

EDIT 2 - PoisonousRose, I deleted my comments on James and I'm moving them to the James Character Analysis thread before a mod yells at me. :p

PoisonousRose, I decided to move some of my replies to the James thread because they were much more appropriate there. :)

I don't think she liked him at all because it says she is looking at him with "great dislike" and she says he makes her sick. But I don't think she hated him because she doesn't seem like a hater.

Well this is one reason I see a similarity between James/Lily and Ron/Hermione. Hermione and Ron sometimes seemed to hate each other, or want to rip each other's heads off - but we all know they fancied each other for years. I see such a strong resemblance between James and Ron, and Lily and Hermione, too (Harry even draws the James/Ron parallel in OotP, and there's no disputing the fact that both Lily and Hermione were hot-headed, lol).

That said, I think it's highly possible for Lily to criticize and dislike what James was doing while still liking him.


Although maybe I am not talking about Lily enough so I will just say that everyone used to say after HBP that it was Dumbledore who saw too much good in people but I think that character was actually Lily because we see the two boys who she loves both do mean things to her and others and she seems to see the good in James and Snape anyway.

I agree Lily had a way of seeing the good in people - but that doesn't mean she didn't see the bad. She saw the good in Snape, and as much as I dislike his character, I know there was good in him and I don't doubt Lily was mistaken in his good side (I'm at a complete loss to see how they got along, but it's canon, so I accept it). But she also saw the bad in him and when it got too far, she cut off the friendship.

We all saw her criticizing James in SWM; she knew his faults, she saw his bad side. We're told James deflated his head and stopped kidding around all the time, and that he and Lily eventually started dating. We were told he became Head Boy, and we hear great things about him from so many respectable characters. I don't see a reason not to believe the good in him that Lily saw and loved, because she wasn't by any means the only one. On the other hand, Snape was the only character in the books to have a bad opinion of James (well I'd assume the Death Eaters didn't like him much, either :p). Of course, quality over quantity - but, personally, I highly value the opinions of people like Remus, Lily, Sirius, Dumbledore, Hagrid, Kingsley, Moody, McGonagall, etc, who all admired or loved James.

So was Lily simply seeing too much good in James? If she was, seems like many, many other good characters were, too. IMO, it's much more likely that Lily wasn't seeing too much good in him, or cutting him too much slack, and that they grew to be equals (and what better way to show it than in the stag/doe imagery, or the fact that they were Head Boy and Head Girl). She saw the good, but she also saw the bad, and in the end the good outweighed the bad in James and she fell in love with him. :)

Let's focus on Lily and not on the Marauders...or the Snape / Lily Relationship...or James...or Sirius...they all have their own threads. Thanks!

Was Lily perhaps misled to think that Snape went away on his own and James Potter somehow went there and saved him, risking his life for his enemy, to make James look a hero in her eyes? And that slowly turned to a crush and later something more?

Well that's actually how it went... Snape did go down to the Shack on his own. Sirius didn't make him do it; he told Snape how to stop the Willow. Snape by that point already had suspicions about Remus's being a werewolf (Lily said "I know your theory" which sounded to me as though he'd mentioned it quite a few times), and yet he still decided to listen to his enemy and go down to follow Remus. To be perfectly honest, I doubt Sirius actually thought Snape would do it - I'm still confused as to why Snape did in the first place, considering his suspicions and the fact that it was Sirius who told him how to get past the Willow.

Anyways, James did risk his life to save Snape. How was Lily mislead in that regard, or in the fact that Snape went down to the Willow of his own volition? That was all completely true.


Anyways, how did she get wind of it in the first place? Well, who knows. Just like in PS, when the entire school found out about what happened beneath the trapdoor; it's just the way it works at Hogwarts, it seems. News spreads like wildfire, and it's often almost impossible to pinpoint how it got started.

Anyways, how did she get wind of it in the first place? Well, who knows. Just like in PS, when the entire school found out about what happened beneath the trapdoor; it's just the way it works at Hogwarts, it seems. News spreads like wildfire, and it's often almost impossible to pinpoint how it got started.

:agree: Exactly. I don't think there's any evidence in the text to support the conclusion that it was James (Or Sirius, or Remus, or Peter) who told Lily that James Potter saved Snape from "Whatever's down there." News does spread like wildfire at Hogwarts, especially when it isn't supposed to, and Lily could have heard it from anyone who heard it from someone else, who heard it from someone else...you get the drift. :)

Lily's behavior toward Snape in that scene did surprise me a little bit- She heard her best friend had been "rescued" from danger, and she didn't even ask him about it? But, Lily had her flaws just like every human does, and I do think she had the tendency to be a bit self-righteous and too opinionated, and perhaps didn't always listen to others the way she should have, but simply assumed that her story was the correct one, and didn't really seem to consider that it might have some plot holes (Even though Snape couldn't have told her anyway). I though she should have at least asked him what happened, but maybe it's just another sign that she felt really detached from him already, as this is the same conversation in which she complains about him hanging out with Mulciber and Avery.

While yes, like LilyDreamsOn says, Snape did go down to the shack on his own, he is told how to get into it, to know what is inside the Whomping Willow by Sirius.

But Lily I think, does not know of Sirius's part, in TPT she does not say something like *even if Sirius told you about the willow, why did you go there because he told you? He is not your friend. Why did you listen to him?* She only says that James saved Snape and Snape was not acknowledging it.

Also she did not seem to know about a werewolf in the shack, because she tells Snape that she knows all about his suspicions.

posted by DH --- TPT
'I know your theory,' said Lily and she sounded cold. 'Why are you so obssessed with them anyway? Why do you care what they are doing at night?'

And this was after the shack incident and before the SWM. So for Lily at that time, it was only Snape's theory and suspicion that there was a werewolf there. Snape perhaps, was ordered not to say anything about it by Dumbledore.

That was what made me feel that, perhaps, she was somehow made aware of something heroic James did, but the actual story about the werewolf incident was not known to her.

JMHO

That was what made me feel that, perhaps, she was somehow made aware of something heroic James did, but the actual story about the werewolf incident was not known to her. JMHO

Yes that was correct. Lily said that she'd heard what happen at the shack and Snape should be greatful because he'd been rescused. Then Snape accused her of believing James a hero.

I was considering another aspect of what may have been going on with Lily. In those days with the Order versus Voldemort going on in the background, it is possible that someone was disseminating information on campus about the Order the same way some were doing it about Voldemort. If so, it is possible that Lily became interesting in fighting with the Order, perhaps quite early on. The little we saw of Lily showed her to be a brave girl. I would imagine that would have interested her and perhaps she had planned to join the Order after Hogwarts as early as 5th, or 6th year.

While yes, like LilyDreamsOn says, Snape did go down to the shack on his own, he is told how to get into it, to know what is inside the Whomping Willow by Sirius.

I think Lily probably didn't know if the Werewolf Incident went around the school. Usually when the information is spread around, the facts get obscured and is somewhat ridiculous compared to the real story. It would make sense that Lily didn't hear that Sirius sent down Snape. Not many people knew that the trio were in the shack with Sirius and Remus in PoA. I imagine this being the same case with the Werewolf Incident. :)

I also thought of another thing. How did Lily know that she had to sacrifice her life?

Did Dumbledore tell her? Or was it a spur of the moment thing? If it was, I think that was fantastic and a tremendous presence of mind on Lily's part.

Does anyone know and has Jo said anything about this?

Or did she just plead with Voldemort, when he told her to step aside and she somehow, without her knowledge invoked the ancient magic and saved Harry.

I wonder how the most important protection that would save Harry time and again happened that Halloween night.

I also thought of another thing. How did Lily know that she had to sacrifice her life?

Did Dumbledore tell her? Or was it a spur of the moment thing? If it was, I think that was fantastic and a tremendous presence of mind on Lily's part.

Does anyone know and has Jo said anything about this?

Or did she just plead with Voldemort, when he told her to step aside and she somehow, without her knowledge invoked the ancient magic and saved Harry.

I wonder how the most important protection that would save Harry time and again happened that Halloween night.

She, nor Dumbledore, or anyone else, knew that sacrificing herself like that would keep Harry alive. It had never happened before that night, for someone to have a clear choice to live, but to choose death out of love for another. Lily's sacrifice is that grand because for all she knew, there was no way for her to keep Harry live, and that laying her life for Harry wouldn't do anything - that's why she was pleading with Voldemort, begging him to show mercy for her son. It's heartbreaking to imagine what she was thinking at that moment, knowing that her entire world was ending, because the love of her life had just been murdered, and her one and only precious son was about to be killed as well... the amount of love she had for Harry is clearer than ever in that moment.

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realized. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

Snape was the first magical person she ever met, so he had a big impact on her early on. He told her she was a witch and told her things about a world she was destined to be a part of. For that, Lily must have been so amazed by Snape and felt there was a connection between them. When they finally reached Hogwarts, I think she still felt there was still a connection and that’s why they struggled remain friends, despite being in opposite Houses. I think Lily trusted Snape enough to believe the things he told her, but as when they went to Hogwarts and she met other magical people, I think they opened up her perspective also.

Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

I’ve always been fascinated by Lily’s and Petunia’s relationship. Like Petunia, I also know how it feels to have a sister everyone loves and prefers while you feel forgotten. I think if Petunia was able to get over her bitterness and envy, Lily and she could have repaired their relationship. If wouldn’t be easier, and it would bring up a lot of insecurities on Petunia’s part, but as children, Lily and Petunia seemed close. And the most amazing thing about sisters is their ability to forgive each other. Though, Petunia needs to do a lot of explaining to do on why she treated Harry so horribly if Lily and Petunia meet up in heaven.

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

I think Lily was the type of girl who was friendly with everyone [except the Death Eaters]. I see her floating among cliques, friendly enough to belong but self-reserved enough not to get caught up in catty gossip. The thing is, you can be popular and not be a ditzy, self-absorbed airhead. Unlike other girls, I don’t think Lily was the type of girl who cared what you think about her or succumbed to peer pressure.

According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

I don’t think this says anything bad on Lily’s part. I don’t think Lily cared what her friends thought about her friendship with Snape. Lily and Snape broke up about something nothing to do with her friends. If Lily really cared about her friends thought, she would have broken off a long time ago. I just think it meant that people saw her hanging out with him, and wondered how they were friends. Her friends possibly could have known how Snape called others muggleborns “Mudbloods” and wondered why she put up with that.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

I think Lily had every right not to forgive Snape for calling her a “mudblood”. Snape hurt Lily first, and repeatedly. Why should she want to be friends with a boy so enamored with the Dark Arts and aspired to be a Death Eater? I have a real problem how some people really dislike Lily because she refused to forgive Snape. Besides the fact he was aspiring to be part of a group that wanted to kill Muggles and Mudbloods, Lily and Snape were just too incompatible. Their friendship was just going downhill. Had she lived and learned what Snape had done for her, I do think Lily would have been likely grateful, though she would be shocked at Snape for not caring about James or Harry.

I also thought of another thing. How did Lily know that she had to sacrifice her life?

No, JKR said Lily never knew. Nothing like what happened that October night had happened before, so Lily had no way in knowing the result of her choice to lay down her life. Lily sacrificed herself because she loved her son to the point that she would rather die than have him die.

No, JKR said Lily never knew. Nothing like what happened that October night had happened before, so Lily had no way in knowing the result of her choice to lay down her life. Lily sacrificed herself because she loved her son to the point that she would rather die than have him die.

Yes, and that is the biggest sacrifice of all. The sacrifice of a mother giving up her life for her child is what kept Harry alive for so long and started 'Harry Potter'. Without that sacrifice, Harry would have died as a baby and there would be no Harry Potter. Lily had the choice to escape and yet she didn't. I think that makes the sacrifice stronger :)

~WendyPotter:rave:

She, nor Dumbledore, or anyone else, knew that sacrificing herself like that would keep Harry alive. It had never happened before that night, for someone to have a clear choice to live, but to choose death out of love for another. Lily's sacrifice is that grand because for all she knew, there was no way for her to keep Harry live, and that laying her life for Harry wouldn't do anything - that's why she was pleading with Voldemort, begging him to show mercy for her son. It's heartbreaking to imagine what she was thinking at that moment, knowing that her entire world was ending, because the love of her life had just been murdered, and her one and only precious son was about to be killed as well... the amount of love she had for Harry is clearer than ever in that moment.

:agree: :upset:

As JK Rowling said:


MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in front of Harry?

JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one, therefore, knew that could happen.

So Lily had no way of knowing that her sacrifice would do anything to protect Harry. Her mind was not working on a logical level in that moment- Lily's words and actions in Voldemort's presence were entirely born of her heart. The immense amount of love she had for Harry meant that she couldn't bear to stand and watch her son be killed without interfering. That makes Lily even more courageous in my eyes, because she knew her death could be worthless, but she threw herself into it anyway, with the desperate hope that she could do something, anything for her son, because she really did love Harry with her entire being.

Lily probably thought along the same lines as Dumbledore. Lily knew James had to be dead, and she must have known Voldemort would kill Harry, she just wouldn't (no matter what Snape may have thought) live without James and Harry. She hoped that sacrificing herself would, if nothing else, delay Harry's death.

This impacted Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts because she saw that there were others like her that related to her, so she wasn't different. In other words, Snape made it so the magical world and Hogwarts were a sort of sanctuary for Lily from a discriminating sister.

I don't think anything could have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children because Petunia will be Petunia, an Lily didn't exactly do anything wrong to make Petunia act as she did.

Based on the few things we know about Lily, the sort of friends she had at Hogwarts were what would today be thought of as the popular crowd. Like James Potter and the other Gryffindor's who were sort of the jocks of Quidditch.

According to Lil her friend couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day. What this says about Lily's character and the kind of friends she has is that she is a much better person than the people she hangs out with.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape when he called her "mudblood". I am supposing that was the last straw for her because she resented having a friend that was actually a true friend? She wanted to fit in with the Gryffindor crowd, and by Snape calling her a mudblood, that gave her a reason to be mad at him? I DEFINITELY think she would have reconsidered the decision had she lived because he was probably one of the few very true friends she had.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape when he called her "mudblood". I am supposing that was the last straw for her because she resented having a friend that was actually a true friend? She wanted to fit in with the Gryffindor crowd, and by Snape calling her a mudblood, that gave her a reason to be mad at him?

I don't think Lily needed to try to fit in with the Gryffindors - she was probably the most Gryffindor-esque person from the books. The Sorting Hat shouted Gryffindor the second it touched her head, kind of like it did with Draco (but for Slytherin). She was brave yet stubborn, but I doubt she needed any more reasons to be mad at Snape. He was doing basically everything that went against her morals, he was discriminating against people like her, was going around doing Dark Magic and laughing at the use of it - so finally when he called her a Mudblood, it really was the last straw, and she just couldn't take it.

I DEFINITELY think she would have reconsidered the decision had she lived because he was probably one of the few very true friends she had.

We don't know how close she was with he friends at Hogwarts, but IMO they were good enough friends that they worried for her (they thought she should stay away from Snape, and in the end they were right considering what he was aiming to be), and they actually shared her morals. But later on she seemed to have a very close friendship with the Marauders, considering she'd even started to use their nicknames. We see first hand how close she was with Sirius through the letter, she worried for Peter (urgh, Peter), and we know Remus was very fond of Lily and I'd say that went both ways (they seem like they would be really good friends). She seemed happy with them, in writing her letter to Sirius.

Then compare that to her friendship with Snape - every scene we saw them together, they had some argument; for years, Lily had to make excuses for him to her friends because of his behaviour; what he was becoming was against everything Lily stood for; and in the end he called her the worst thing he possibly could (a filthy little Mudblood). They had terrible communication (he wouldn't listen to her strictures on his DE friends, for example) and he was so blinded by his love for the Dark Arts, he couldn't understand Lily's point of view in the least. There was a time when they were good friends, but IMO he wasn't her truest friend - as I saw it, the better part of their friendship wasn't true to either of them at all. I have a hard time understanding how they got along well enough to consider each other best friends for a time, but I'll just trust Jo on this one.

I need to post my two cents somewhere, since people are assuming that Lily's Patronus was a doe. Severus's Patronus was a doe, and only Harry says that Lily's was, but no one tells him this. Conceivably, Lupin could have told him but then he'd also mention that it was Snape's since presumably Snape used his Patronus to alert headquarters of Harry's vision. I think this was a misprint in book 7. The book should have read something like,
"Snape's Patronus was a doe, the symbol of my mother."

I need to post my two cents somewhere, since people are assuming that Lily's Patronus was a doe. Severus's Patronus was a doe, and only Harry says that Lily's was, but no one tells him this. Conceivably, Lupin could have told him but then he'd also mention that it was Snape's since presumably Snape used his Patronus to alert headquarters of Harry's vision. I think this was a misprint in book 7. The book should have read something like,
"Snape's Patronus was a doe, the symbol of my mother."
Yes, I was a little confused about that at first, too. It had never said that Lily's Patronus was a doe. But I see how the sybolism goes. This is how I see the symbolism: James was the stag. So as his wife, Lily is the doe. Is that right?

I don't think t says anywhere in the books about Lily's Patronus being a doe, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

Yes, I was a little confused about that at first, too. It had never said that Lily's Patronus was a doe. But I see how the sybolism goes. This is how I see the symbolism: James was the stag. So as his wife, Lily is the doe. Is that right?

I don't think t says anywhere in the books about Lily's Patronus being a doe, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

Yeah, exactly. Jo actually confirmed that in the webchat:

Chely: James patronus is a stag and lilys a doe is that a coincidence?
J.K. Rowling: No, the Patronus often mutates to take the image of the love of one's life (because they so often become the 'happy thought' that generates a Patronus).

But I agree that it was sort of odd that Harry just *knew* Lily's patronus was a doe without ever being told. Oh well, I guess he put two and two together. In The Silver Doe, I knew it had something to do with Lily, because I thought "stag...doe...James...Lily!" (I just never imagined Snape was involved :p).