Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis

I apologise for not reading the full 30 pages of discussion. But, I saw a mention of Petunia's and Lily's relationship. I too, have wondered if they would have repaired their friendship if Lily had lived. I wonder if Vernon somehow had a hand in this. (of course this was years later). Not only was Lily a witch, she was tall, slim and beautiful. Look at Petunia. She was not very good looking. And look at who she married, a man who didn't have an imagination. I sometimes wondered if Petunia didn't have a good cry once she brought Harry into the house. Of course, she might not have wanted Vernon to know that she missed Lily. As for Snape's relationship with Lily, that surprised me. He was the last person that I would expect her to know since before Hogwarth's. Lily did have other friends beside Snape. Hagrid told Harry that he wrote to James and Lily's friends for photos of them. I will try and read some of the other posts for more information.

I am wondering, it's just my opinion, would Petunia have been allowed to visit Hogwarth's instead of Lily coming home every holiday? Maybe if she had visited Lily, she might not have been so jealous.

I apologise for not reading the full 30 pages of discussion. But, I saw a mention of Petunia's and Lily's relationship. I too, have wondered if they would have repaired their friendship if Lily had lived. I wonder if Vernon somehow had a hand in this. (of course this was years later). Not only was Lily a witch, she was tall, slim and beautiful. Look at Petunia. She was not very good looking. And look at who she married, a man who didn't have an imagination. I sometimes wondered if Petunia didn't have a good cry once she brought Harry into the house. Of course, she might not have wanted Vernon to know that she missed Lily. As for Snape's relationship with Lily, that surprised me. He was the last person that I would expect her to know since before Hogwarth's. Lily did have other friends beside Snape. Hagrid told Harry that he wrote to James and Lily's friends for photos of them. I will try and read some of the other posts for more information.

I am wondering, it's just my opinion, would Petunia have been allowed to visit Hogwarth's instead of Lily coming home every holiday? Maybe if she had visited Lily, she might not have been so jealous.

I don't believe that Hogwarts allowed muggle relatives to do an on site visit - like for the entire christmas period. It would have to be made "seeable" for her because normally Muggles could not see it - or any magical building for that matter.

I don't believe that Hogwarts allowed muggle relatives to do an on site visit - like for the entire christmas period. It would have to be made "seeable" for her because normally Muggles could not see it - or any magical building for that matter.
Yes, it seems Muggles are not allowed in Hogwarts. We never see parents of any Muggle-born students, and even when Hermione was lying in a hospital wing, petrified, her parents did not come to visit. I think they would have sat day and night near her bed, if they had known, so either they weren't allowed to come to Hogwarts, or they weren't even notified.

As for Lily and Petunia's relationship... Lily made some cutting remark about Petunia's vase in her letter to Sirius (something about not regretting that Harry broke it, therefore probably insinuating that Petunia had a bad taste). We see that Petunia was aggressive and jealous of Lily's magical gift, but Lily herself didn't seem to be a saint. She agreed to read Petunia's private letter (although later she shifted the whole blame on Snape). We also know she liked impressing her parents with different magical tricks. I wonder if maybe Lily subconsciously liked to needle Petunia, sort of rubbing it in in response to Petunia's aggressive denial of all things magical.

Lily was certainly not a saint. I think she the "Ginny" of the Marauder's period. That is she could and probably did get away with a lot of things, and people though she could do no wrong. I do think Lily had more positives than Ginny, though. :)

She was not above reading Petunia's letter to Dumbledore, which I think was humiliating when Petunia came to know about it and it was from that time Petunia started calling Lily a freak and took an extreme stance against magic IMO.

In short, Lily's actions that day which, when Petunia came to know Lily had read her letter to Dumbledore, set her so much against magic and the magical world that years later, Lily's son suffered for it IMO.

I do think Lily had more positives than Ginny, though. :)

Really? :lol: Although I'm not a Ginny fan, I'm not blind to her good points, e.g. her selfless willingness to let go of Harry so he could go on his dangerous mission to hunt Horcruxes.

She was not above reading Petunia's letter to Dumbledore, which I think was humiliating when Petunia came to know about it and it was from that time Petunia started calling Lily a freak and took an extreme stance against magic IMO.

No, that really is not one of Lily's better moments, is it? :huh: Reading Petunia's private letter when she had no business to. :shrug: Although she and Sev should share the blame equally for that, I can't help thinking. :whistle:

In short, Lily's actions that day which, when Petunia came to know Lily had read her letter to Dumbledore, set her so much against magic and the magical world that years later, Lily's son suffered for it IMO.

We can't blame Lily for the abusive way in which Petunia treated Harry though! :huh: Petunia was entirely responsible for her own actions there. However negatively she felt about the Magic world, there is no excuse whatsoever for how she and her family treated Harry.

And, frankly, Severus was just as culpable as Lily when it came to the roots of Petunia's anti-Magic prejudice, IMO.

Not that I see Petunia as some kind of guiltless victim, I hasten to add.

We can't blame Lily for the abusive way in which Petunia treated Harry though! :huh: Petunia was entirely responsible for her own actions there. However negatively she felt about the Magic world, there is no excuse whatsoever for how she and her family treated Harry.

And, frankly, Severus was just as culpable as Lily when it came to the roots of Petunia's anti-Magic prejudice, IMO.

Not that I see Petunia as some kind of guiltless victim, I hasten to add.

I agree. This is the same argument used to support Snape's treatment of Harry. That his dad was so abusive, Snape was somehow justified in going on to abuse his son. First, as you point out, in both cases, Snape was no guiltless victim either in terms of Lily or James.

But more importantly, Petunia's decision to treat Harry in an abusive way, stands on its own, imo. You have to think of it in terms of actions in my judgment. For instance, say instead, Petunia decided to box up a bunch of Lily's useless old books and throw them in the trash in response to her feelings about her sister. Well the "why" is the same as it was in the case where she responded by treating Harry in an abusive manner. Yet the focus is not on the books and papers thrown out in the first example, because books and papers are not believed to feel harm and injury and they are useless - so the "why" is more material and the useless books and papers are relatively immaterial. But in the case of what Petunia did to Harry, the focus changes because her acts in and of themselves were harmful to him and the "why" becomes immaterial, imo.

There are many responses one can make to real or perceived wrongs. Revenge is the most rudimentary of choices, imo. There are a multitude of other choices one could make ranging from forgiveness, avoidance and settlement in a state sponsored forum (like counseling) to all out revenge which is generally disproportional and savage in nature in comparasion to other forms.

I think I should answer your post in the Petunia thread. :)

I also have some thoughts about Lily ... Lily maybe felt rather guilty that she had read Dumbledore's letter to Petunia (as she should have done) and she also never stopped making overtures of friendship to Petunia.

Petunia was responsible for her own reactions to Lily (and Harry ... and Snape, for that matter).

It seems extraordinary that Petunia should reject her own sister in such a way :sigh: but I do think Lily made some effort to salvage the relationship.

1. She wasn't one of those clueless muggle-borns. We can only hope that with Snape being with Lily she wasn't as frightened to be from a non-magical family.
2. I think the only way the relationship could have been fixed would be by Lily trying to include Petunia in the world of magic. But I doubt that would have helped either.
3. Because she was pretty, I think she would have been in with the popular kids. But I doubt she would be as air-headed as most of the 'pretty girls'. No offense to those of you who are pretty and smart!
4. Lily was a caring person and helped out the little person.
5. It's like your best friend called you a name that you will never forget. You can't help it, it's just a last thing. I think she might have gotten over it as they worked in the OOTP

[QUOTE=hermy_weasley2;4629929] Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

I think it would have meant that Lily knew a lot more about the magical world than the majority of Muggle-born students. She wouldn't have been surprised when she got her Hogwarts letter and she wasn't taking that leap alone, as other Muggle-borns were, she had Severus with her.

Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

Maybe, given time, things could have improved. A possible factor may have been that after school, Lily was giving over a lot of her time to the Order and the fight against Voldemort and didn't have the time to invest in her relationship with Petunia. However, Petunia pretending she didn't have a sister doesn't bode well for things, even if Lily had lived. Although, going by Lily's letter to Sirius, they did at least exchange Christmas gifts (the "horrible" vase, what happened to it being the thought that counts?) Not ideal terms for sisters to be on, but it was better than no contact at all and showed there was still a link between them.

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

I think she would have been friends with lots of different people, people like Severus, who weren't popular at all and people who were popular, as she was a pretty and vivacious girl, according to Slughorn - intelligence and skill alone weren't enough to be a member of his club, otherwise, Snape would have been in. There's no way we can say for sure, but I can't imagine her just being friends with only the popular set other than Snape, she doesn't seem swayed by popularity, as evidenced in SWM.


According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

I think it shows that she's open-minded and accepting, perhaps she felt that a large part of the bias against Snape among her friends was his House. She knew him before Hogwarts, he was her first friend in the wizarding world, and I don't think she wanted to let go of that friendship. I think she appreciates the concerns of her other friends, but she is strong-willed enough to make up her own mind.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?[/LIST]

5. It's like your best friend called you a name that you will never forget. You can't help it, it's just a last thing. I think she might have gotten over it as they worked in the OOTP


That is how I see it - Snape used the wizarding equivalent of the worst of racial slurs against Lily - a term that implies he considers her inferior, not good enough. It was a betrayal, of sorts. She had seen his growing involvement with wannabe Death Eaters like Macnair and Avery and this seemed like confirmation that he shared their views. I don't think Snape was openly spying for the Order in the first war - certainly not until Lily and James went into hiding (I think he passed information directly to Dumbledore, otherwise, Wormtail would have had something to tell Voldemort). I think, though, that with time, Lily could have gotten on with Snape again, though they would never have regained the friendship they once had.


I don't believe that Hogwarts allowed muggle relatives to do an on site visit - like for the entire christmas period. It would have to be made "seeable" for her because normally Muggles could not see it - or any magical building for that matter.

Although, we see in Riddle's memory that Myrtle's parents are coming to the school following her death and she is Muggleborn (Malfoy announces that last time the Chamber was opened, a "Mudlood" died). I see no reason for Riddle to lie about that detail. That must mean there is a spell to enable Muggles to see Hogwarts, or perhaps they can see it if they know it is there.

1. Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

I'd think she would be more at ease during her first couple of days at Hogwarts, as Snape probably shared with her whatever he knew of the place. She'd also probably feel less anxious about how her Muggle heritage would affect her relationship with other students (not that she wouldn't be disillusioned pretty soon, though... :lol:)


2. Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

I'm not sure, actually. Lilly was probably both better looking and magically talented (unlike Petunia), so there was the sibling rivalry with a twist. Later on, given as their respective lives would've unraveled in completely different societies, with different sets of values for "socially acceptable behavior"... :hmm: I'll go with Jo's description of post-DH Harry and Dudley, at best.

3. Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

Well, she was a member of the Slug Club. :shrug: Then again, there was Snape as her best friend...
Actually, I can't help of thinking Harry again - with Luna, Neville, Weasleys and Hermione. I think Lilly and her son were very much alike in that respect: they chose their friends to suit them, not the student society.

4. According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

Well, it is hard to break a friendship going back almost a decade. :shrug: Snape was most likely a token of her "old life" - I can't say I really see her befriending him had they met at Hogwarts for the first time... There'd be the house rivalry thing right from the start, and the matter of her ancestry, so they wouldn't even be moving in the same circles... And we're never shown if Lilly had other friends outside her house, really. :no:

5. Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

She had time enough to "reconsider" before she died, so my answer to the second question is 'no'.
As for why it was the last straw... she gradually became disappointed in Snape, I think, as he failed to meet her expectation of being the quiet, scholarly type everyone picks on. This is not to say she didn't really like him, it's just that I have the feeling she was one of those "mother hen" types - and the route he chose on his way to lose the "quiet, scholarly type" didn't help either... :no:. It was just a matter of time, and the fact that he humiliated her in front of other students she knew... well, we know what effect it had on Snape's relationship with James and Lilly was not a saint either. *shrugs*

As for why it was the last straw... she gradually became disappointed in Snape, I think, as he failed to meet her expectation of being the quiet, scholarly type everyone picks on. This is not to say she didn't really like him, it's just that I have the feeling she was one of those "mother hen" types - and the route he chose on his way to lose the "quiet, scholarly type" didn't help either... :no:. It was just a matter of time, and the fact that he humiliated her in front of other students she knew... well, we know what effect it had on Snape's relationship with James and Lilly was not a saint either. *shrugs*

To me, in addition to being humiliating (a put down of any sort is), it was also meant to be degrading of her birth, which has the double whammy effect of both signaling out an immutable (cannot change) trait and accusing one of being inferior or lacking due to it. On top of that, some in the crowd knew that Snape was purportedly a friend of hers. It is not a question of what her friend thinks of her, but rather, why she would be friends with someone who thinks of her in such lowly and degrading terms.

It was actually very strange to me that James demanded an apology from Snape. First because Snape was calling others Mudblood, so it wasn't as if any apology would be meaningful. Second because although Snape had done Lily a grave harm, it would do no good toward James' personal pursuit of Lily based on the crush he had on her at the time. Those two factors said to me that James was truly more concerned about the prejudice factor involved - that bias was a seriously upsetting issue for him, independent of who it was directed at - as if making Snape recognize his wrongful behavior was a concern. I think Lily was smart enough to realize this, once she left the untenable situation and was able to reflect a bit. But it would make Snape's behavior stand out more to her, imo, because these boys were both apart of her direct peer group - stressing the dichotomy of viewpoint and outlook, despite both being engaged in negative behavior. I think that may have factored into her determination that Snape's behavior was unforgivable.

To me, in addition to being humiliating (a put down of any sort is), it was also meant to be degrading of her birth, which has the double whammy effect of both signaling out an immutable (cannot change) trait and accusing one of being inferior or lacking due to it. On top of that, some in the crowd knew that Snape was purportedly a friend of hers. It is not a question of what her friend thinks of her, but rather, why she would be friends with someone who thinks of her in such lowly and degrading terms.

It doesn't really sit well with my perception of Lilly, though. I would've thought, after all those years, she'd know Snape never viewed her as being "inferior". If she didn't, it'd point to a lack of interest in/understanding of his character, IMO.

Also, I don't see Hogwarts Lilly as very attached to her Muggle heritage - she certainly doesn't go out of her way with Petunia. If she did take the whole "mudblood" thing as an insult (apart from the humiliation factor), I'd think it was more on ethical than personal grounds...

"But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?"

So, she's heard him use it before, but didn't feel/react as strongly...

It doesn't really sit well with my perception of Lilly, though. I would've thought, after all those years, she'd know Snape never viewed her as being "inferior". If she didn't, it'd point to a lack of interest in/understanding of his character, IMO.

But he did - and that is what she finally admitted to herself. She had been pretending that he didn't. What Snape did was to make an exception for Lily in terms of "she's an inferior mudblood, but I like her anyway". Lily is supposed to be cool with that? Oh how nice of you to make an exception for a person of my low birth and inferiority. The problem is his seeing people that way, not that he can make an exception.

Of course, if he can make one exception, he can may 100's, but that is no good either. The whole perception needs to change to one of not seeing people of muggle birth as inferior in general. Making exceptions means there is something "wrong" that he had to make an exception for. Basically that sucks.

Also, I don't see Hogwarts Lilly as very attached to her Muggle heritage - she certainly doesn't go out of her way with Petunia. If she did take the whole "mudblood" thing as an insult (apart from the humiliation factor), I'd think it was more on ethical than personal grounds...

"But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?"

So, she's heard him use it before, but didn't feel/react as strongly...

Well we weren't there to know what she said in the past. Her response could range from being to embarassed to say anything (yes this even happens to the very brave and strong at times when the matter is about an immutable trait and it is coming from a friend) - to chastising him for it and Snape doing his "let's talk about this instead" act that he pulled throughout their conversation in DH, memory #5.

I think her question-statement at the time she ended the friendship squarely spoke to her thoughts. She claimed she'd been "pretending" and I understood that to mean that she felt: while he called others mudblood, he didn't REALLY feel that way or else he would not be friends with her. But Snape had made it clear that day that he thought of her in that way too.

I don't know what you mean about being attached to her muggle heritage. That has nothing to do with it as far as I can see. She was being degraded for being muggle born, irrespective of what she thought about it. It's like degrading someone for having naturally red hair, they can like it or not, it makes no difference to the fact that they are being degraded by a supposed friend. The friend saying all red heads are psychopathic (with sincerity) isn't going to go over well even if the person isn't particularly fond of their own red hair and was thinking of dying it blonde.

It doesn't really sit well with my perception of Lilly, though. I would've thought, after all those years, she'd know Snape never viewed her as being "inferior". If she didn't, it'd point to a lack of interest in/understanding of his character, IMO.


But he did - and that is what she finally admitted to herself. She had been pretending that he didn't. What Snape did was to make an exception for Lily in terms of "she's an inferior mudblood, but I like her anyway". Lily is supposed to be cool with that? Oh how nice of you to make an exception for a person of my low birth and inferiority. The problem is his seeing people that way, not that he can make an exception.

Of course, if he can make one exception, he can may 100's, but that is no good either. The whole perception needs to change to one of not seeing people of muggle birth as inferior in general. Making exceptions means there is something "wrong" that he had to make an exception for. Basically that sucks.


I agree with wwb, here. It seems to me that Snape did consider Lily inferior, and his true sentiments emerged when he was in a stressful situation and in less control of what he was saying and doing. To use such a term implies that you consider someone inferior. Lily didn't want, and shouldn't want imo, to be friends with someone who considered her inferior.

I have to wonder though, after reading Prince's Tale, why she was willing to overlook him using the term against others for so long - whether she merely ignored it, or argued with him over it, the fact is she knew he called other people "Mudblood" and remained friends with him. Perhaps she thought it was just a phase, that he would move past using that term, or he was just doing it to fit in. Was she living in denial until he used the term against her, I wonder?

Well she flat out said that she was finished "pretending" - there really isn't a whole lot of ways to interpret that statement in the circumstances. Their viewpoints were diametrically opposed on a very fundamental and important topic (good v. evil). So for her to remain friends, she had to pretend that all of the indicators that pointed to Snape's behavior following the dark path did not mean he held the "evil" viewpoint.

JKR showed us how the two of them remained friends in the memories. Snape would make his comments like using dark magic against others was just a laugh - Lily would be appalled and call him on it, even start to give him ultimatums "if you think that's funny-" and Snape would interrupt by changing the topic, rather than addressing the issue. Lily would then be left with "no answer". She would have to fashion an answer for Snape herself and apparently she decided that if he had answered, he would agree with her that dark magic against others was bad.

So her statement indicated her realization that she had been pretending - fooling herself about what Snape's behavior and actions meant. She finally conceded that Snape really did wish to join Voldemort and truly carried the beliefs of budding death eaters, imo. So yeah, she was living in denial in that regard.

I have to wonder though, after reading Prince's Tale, why she was willing to overlook him using the term against others for so long - whether she merely ignored it, or argued with him over it, the fact is she knew he called other people "Mudblood" and remained friends with him. Perhaps she thought it was just a phase, that he would move past using that term, or he was just doing it to fit in. Was she living in denial until he used the term against her, I wonder?

We don't know when Lily learned Snape had been calling other people "Mudblood". It is possible she knew before SWM. But it is also possible that someone only told her/ Lily realized after SWM that Snape had been calling other people "Mudblood".

I agree with wwb, here. It seems to me that Snape did consider Lily inferior...

I can't completely agree with you there. From the opening scenes on their friendship, the only thing Lilly might be "inferior" in was actual knowledge of the magical world. In all other respects (social status, looks, integration) she was actually superior to Snape.

I have to wonder though, after reading Prince's Tale, why she was willing to overlook him using the term against others for so long - whether she merely ignored it, or argued with him over it, the fact is she knew he called other people "Mudblood" and remained friends with him.

It might have been a matter of words Vs actions - if he merely echoed his Slytherin peers without acting on the belief, it wouldn't have been hard for Lilly (who knew him almost a decade by then) to shrug it off. It's when he appeared to have started acting on the pureblood dogma that she decided to call it quits.

I can't completely agree with you there. From the opening scenes on their friendship, the only thing Lilly might be "inferior" in was actual knowledge of the magical world. In all other respects (social status, looks, integration) she was actually superior to Snape.

But that is in terms of the muggle world - which Snape appeared to despise. Socially, she was inferior in the wizard world to those who considered the blood purity issue. It didn't matter if you were the most beautiful and popular girl in the world - if you were muggleborn, you were still a Mudblood to them. Snape already giving props to that issue as he spoke of his judgments in the matter relative to Petunia. Even then he was making an exception for Lily, imo. I think it took a while for Lily to recognize this. But I feel that she had by 5th year (memory #5), and likely quite some time before based on what JKR has said.

It might have been a matter of words Vs actions - if he merely echoed his Slytherin peers without acting on the belief, it wouldn't have been hard for Lilly (who knew him almost a decade by then) to shrug it off. It's when he appeared to have started acting on the pureblood dogma that she decided to call it quits.

But that contradicts JKR saying that Lily did know about Snape's dark friends and ACTS. So I think he simply did not aim that sort of behavior at her and she fooled herself into thinking that he could change into being the person he was around her. We saw that she tried to address the more fundamental issues with him to no avail.

So I think he simply did not aim that sort of behavior at her and she fooled herself into thinking that he could change into being the person he was around her. We saw that she tried to address the more fundamental issues with him to no avail.

Well, she certainly was good at "fooling herself into thinking that people can change into being the person they are around her"... Remember old Padfoot's account on James Vs Snape thing? :evil:

'She didn't know too much about it, to tell you the truth,' said Sirius. 'I mean, James didn't take Snape on dates with her and jinx him in front of her, did he?'

Sorry, nothing against your views, really... I just can't help reveling in the fact that none of the leads are completely black nor completely white. :lol: That's what makes these discussions interesting.

Well, she certainly was good at "fooling herself into thinking that people can change into being the person they are around her"... Remember old Padfoot's account on James Vs Snape thing? :evil:

'She didn't know too much about it, to tell you the truth,' said Sirius. 'I mean, James didn't take Snape on dates with her and jinx him in front of her, did he?'

Sorry, nothing against your views, really... I just can't help reveling in the fact that none of the leads are completely black nor completely white. :lol: That's what makes these discussions interesting.

I don't understand your point. You believe Lily thought James was an angel? I am sure she did not. The fact that he didn't tell her about every instance that Snape attacked him, speaks to James sparing her feelings. But it says nothing about Lily. She didn't know and if she had, do you think she would be more upset at James retaliating for being hexed, or at Snape for hexing him? Well if she were my girl and got more upset over a retaliation, I doubt she'd remain my girl for long. :lol:.

But I understand James not saying much about it and trying to play it down, I would do that too. It was her old friend, clearly acting out of jealousy and trying to harm their relationship. Crying to Lily about it for sympathy or to try and make her angry with someone she was no longer friends with is senseless. In other words, there was no point. She likely only knew something about it because she heard it through the famed Hogwarts grapevine.

But the point is rather moot because she did know something about it, and what she knew wasn't that her boyfriend was a budding death eater. That is what she came to realize about Snape and why she had to end the friendship and quit pretending. If you don't see the fundamental difference in that, then we are likely discussing something that we have to agree to disagree on. :)

If you don't see the fundamental difference in that, then we are likely discussing something that we have to agree to disagree on. :)

Ah, but we always end up agreeing to disagree... :lol:

I found the fact that no one bothered to go into details about James and Snape somewhat indicative of her probable reaction, budding DE or not. :shrug:

And after almost a decade of her calling someone "best friend", the "no point" argument doesn't hold water IMO. Even if she didn't care associating herself with him, I think Lily would've reacted... if only for the ethics of it (as I'm sure she would've given the same treatment to Snape, if she were still on speaking terms with him at that point).

Ah, but we always end up agreeing to disagree... :lol:

I found the fact that no one bothered to go into details about James and Snape somewhat indicative of her probable reaction, budding DE or not. :shrug:

And after almost a decade of her calling someone "best friend", the "no point" argument doesn't hold water IMO. Even if she didn't care associating herself with him, I think Lily would've reacted... if only for the ethics of it (as I'm sure she would've given the same treatment to Snape, if she were still on speaking terms with him at that point).

But that is the whole point; she wasn't on speaking terms with him then. Hence, "no point" holds all the water in the world. Her point was that she didn't wish her boyfriend to go about hexing people (anyone). Well James had stopped all that. Snape was hexing James - not the other way around. Lily I would imagine would wish for him to stand up for himself. After all, she didn't start screaming at Snape in SWM when he made his retaliatory strike. So her feelings on it I believe were normal, rather than prudishly strict. She would know that James had the option of pulling a Percy - and since I personally did not like Percy's behavior, I am glad he didn't and I see Lily feeling the same way - because we don't know and so I get to make that deterimnation on my own. :)

I can't completely agree with you there. From the opening scenes on their friendship, the only thing Lilly might be "inferior" in was actual knowledge of the magical world. In all other respects (social status, looks, integration) she was actually superior to Snape.

And the text is quite explicit about this, in the scene where he tells her about Dementors. He states his belief that she is highly magical, and so her birth does not matter, as well as the opinion that she'd never wind up in Azkaban because she is too (I'd guess pretty was the word he was too embarassed to utter, though nice might be another reasonable guess).

"Does it make a difference, being Muggle-born?"

Snape hesitated. His black eyes, eager in the greenish gloom, moved over the pale face, the dark red hair.

"No," he said, "It doesn't make any difference."

I can't say that I feel that was written in a way that shows Snape sincerely believed it. But perhaps he hesitated to try and convince himself. Nevertheless, it didn't work because he clearly continued to recognize her as a Mugglebood - right through the time when he was 15 and so indicated aloud, imo.

I think JKR showed that Snape changed in this regard, and Lily got to know about it...from the afterworld...and as an aside, I'd wager James even gave Lily an answering nod of approval at the time...because prejudice is right up there with killing when it comes to despicable behavior, imo. And if there is one major and quite unforgivable flaw that is pervasive among Slytherins...well I digress. But while young, I think Lily fooled herself into believing what Snape said for a long while - thinking that deep down he didn't see a difference. But she was finally was hit with the truth, in a most terrible manner and it impacted her greatly. Not only did it reveal the truth about Snape - she had to deal with her own feelings of degredation, humiliation and anger at the same time.

4. According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
I think her friends probably noticed what a good person she was. It takes a lot to stand up for someone when it's your friends that are judging them. She was extremely brave.
5. Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?
I think it would have been really hard for her to have even thought about it. Once she got to know James and once they fell in love, it would have been very hard to reverse what happened. I think she was more happy with James than she ever could have been with Snape.

... I think Lily fooled herself into believing what Snape said for a long while - thinking that deep down he didn't see a difference. But she was finally was hit with the truth, in a most terrible manner and it impacted her greatly. Not only did it reveal the truth about Snape - she had to deal with her own feelings of degredation, humiliation and anger at the same time.


I agree with this completely.

1. Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

I think that when Lily entered the magical world and Hogwarts, all she had to go on were Snape's opinions. She probably felt lost and thus relied on Snape for everything, even for navigating the confusing hallways. But as she became familiar with everything her reliance on him lessened and a firm friendship took root.

2. Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

Possibly. From what we've seen they were obviously very close as children, and it must have been very heart breaking for both of them to have become so distant from each other.
But again, we've seen that Lily was an extremely caring and loving person, I don't think that it's possible that she didn't already do whatever she could to mend the rift between them.

3. Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

Well she was sitting with a group of girls near the lakeside in SWM, and I think her friends would be kind, sensible and smart girls. I also see her forging inter-House friendships as well, she would have been quite a popular girl.

4. According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

Well we've seen that she had been making excuses for his behaviour to them for years. Everytime he was caught hexing someone or calling people Mudblood, she would probably try and explain to her friends that he wasn't like that, that she knew the real him, that her friendship with him proved that he didn't really think Muggleborns were inferior.
She was an extremely loyal friend. Her other friends were concerned for her and they probably didn't agree that Snape was good but for her sake they probably wouldn't badger her about it all the time. There would be mutual respect in their friendships.

5. Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

Well because she finally saw that for him saving his face and keeping up his reputation was more important than his friendship with her. She was fed up with the company he kept and the Darks Arts he was obsessed with. She couldn't condone his behaviour and he had finally proved all her excuses for him invalid by publicly insulting her.

However I do think that if she had lived, they might have become friends again. Perhaps to the level of Remus and Snape. They would have been on talking terms, at the very least.

Childhood friendships have too many memories to not be able to stand the test of time, particularly if Snape really wanted to make amends for his behaviour.

1. Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

I think it gave her confidence whenever she stepped into the magical world - or at least more that what she had if she had no one. Yes she already seemed confident but Having snape there to help her was a bonus.

2. Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

Maybe. But i think Lily would of given it all an 11 year old could give to try and fix it. I don't think she woud of stopped either but I feel Petunia was a bit stubbourn (maybe it's a family thing) and it didn't help their relationship.

3. Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

I beleive from the scenes there were in the book that Lily was very popular, but popular with eeryone not just the popular people. I think she would have all sorts of friends from different houses.

4. According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

It says that she wouldn't judge people by their looks or general apperance but get to know them 1st and not care what other people say or think about it. She wasn't a sheep and she would need a strong will to be able to do this and a kind heart.

5. Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

I think it was because of all the rumours etc of what Snape and his friends were doing. Not neccarilyy the warnings her friends were telling her but things she overheard. I also think that given that they were in their 5th year they would'nt of had much time together and not enough time to talk things through.
but even saying that I'm not sure if Lily would of forgiven him anyway = even without a history of other dark things Snape had done. The word itself has so much behind and it is sooo discriminating and derogative? that even though it was an "accident" it still show howhe felt about muggleborns deep down. It's such a stronge word that I don't blame her for never forgiving him.

but why couldn't Lily have had a Sirius-type friend?

I feel she did based on the letter she sent to Sirius where she shared her own thoughts and feelings on many topics (imo) - DH.

I can completely accept that the Marauders cared deeply and genuinely for Lily and became her friend, but something rubs me wrong about the notion that Lily's only loyal friends were her husband's. It's not like she was considered one of the Marauders; she was James' girlfriend/wife.

Well I read it as she was a friend to them the same as James was. Like my best friends fiancee became one of my best friends too - we all hang out, get to know one another and care for one another. So that is how I saw that go down.

We don't hear about her wild adventures at Hogwart's with the Gryffindor girls or really anything that would define her as an independent person.

Well again, JKR was keeping her shrouded in mystery. If the friendship she had was Snape was not a part of the story, we'd of likely learned a little more about her early on, imo - but we do find out quite a bit. She had her friends, they played at the lake, she was prefect, she was head girl, she was good in charms and potions. And JKR told us in interview that she was pretty and popular (which I had picked up from OOTP anyway). We knew she was brave as she had turned down an offer from Voldy to join him (interview) and from the books that she defied Voldy with her husband 3 times. She was a loving wife and mother and they seemed pretty happy and normal in the scenes we saw and photos, etc. I felt from the scene we had with her that she was fiesty and funny and had a sense of humor and could be quick to anger, imo - and we found out she would be cheeky with Slughorn, perhaps she got on with him as a professor - and she fell in love in 7th year. We also knew she had compassion and sacrificed herself for her son from Harry's visions early on. We knew she was muggleborn and the only witch in her family and her parents were happy about it, but her sister wasn't from the early books. Plus we heard a lot of things about Harry's "Parents" in tandem - in as far as what they did and how they were (working for th Order and such in OOTP). Having written it all out, I feel that we found out quite a bit about her actually - considering she'd died prior to the start of the series.

I'm frustrated by Lily being represented only symbolically as a mother/wife/object of desire; surely some sense of her individuality could have been revealed without blowing the final mystery.

Well I feel it was based on what I have written above. I think that is actually more than we know about people like Cho, Pansy, Pavarati, and even some of the males like Dean, Seamus and so on, and they were in all 7 books. So I feel that JKR did a good job at informing us of Lily's character, despite keeping her somewhat shrouded in mystery to some degree.

I didn't see her as merely a wife and mother or object of desire. To me, JKR brought her to life in the ways I spoke about above. She was a fighting Order member - who cried for two days at the death of her friends (DH), a popular student with academic talent we know of, she had youthful girl friends she did things with like go down to the lake and spoke to about her issues (OOTP/DH), and she was funny, good humored, a bit fiesty and could get angry (OOTP) and also be radiant like in her wedding picture Hagrid gave Harry. She was a friend to Snape although he was in a different house and on a different path according to her in DH-TPT - just to repeat some of the other things we know about her, imo. So I think there was a bit to be gleaned from the canon about Lily and her character was flushed out enough so that I felt that she was more than just a wife and mum, or an object of desire for others. And Harry loved her very much - so while for me as a reader I can see the 'object of love' idea, from an in-story view, I felt that Harry could revel in her love in quite a real way - and I think that was brought out in the Forest Again chapter in DH with both his parents. I think Snape, Sirius, Lupin, Dumbledore, Hagrid, Voldemort, and likely others also considered her "in story" in their own terms that moved beyond basic descriptors.

If you can accept that Snape and Lily had a real friendship that ended poorly (because of his shortcomings), then Snape can be seen as the one person that she inspired loyalty in, on her own.

I think she did inspire Snape - but others as well. I feel she served as a huge inspiration for her husband (he died directly for her and Harry); and in Harry, who spoke of her or his 'parents' often; and Sirius and Lupin, who also spoke of her, generally in terms of 'parents', but also singularly and to me, in inspirational terms (was it only in the movie that Lupin waxed on about how she saw the good in people? I can't remember now) - and Dumbledore, who did the same, although I recall him speaking of her particularly in comparison to Merope, indicating Lily was a strong woman (GoF I think). So I think she inspired a number of people and foremost, her son, imo.

In my opinion, this reading elevates Lily's contribution to the tale and she becomes much more active and interesting.

I feel she did inspire Snape - just as she inspired others. So I would agree that it is a contribution she was able to add to the story - and to the lives of many of those around her, imo.

Well I read it as she was a friend to them the same as James was. Like my best friends fiancee became one of my best friends too - we all hang out, get to know one another and care for one another. So that is how I saw that go down.

i'm not disagreeing that it is normal and fine for her to become close with her husband's friends...but there is certainly no evidence that of the opposite happening; James becoming close with Lily's circle of friends. In fact all we see is him hexing Snape, although that is before James is together with Lily. So to me there is a lack of equivalency in the James/Lily relationship; Lily is absorbed into the guys' world (it is, after all, pretty much a male story). If your best friend's fiancee leaves all her friends behind or doesn't appear to have ever made any lasting friendships that are important to her to share with her husband, she comes off as rather weak or shallow, imo. (I realize this is being interpreted by omission, but it is in comparison to her husband's well fleshed out friendships.)



Well again, JKR was keeping her shrouded in mystery. If the friendship she had was Snape was not a part of the story, we'd of likely learned a little more about her early on, imo - but we do find out quite a bit. She had her friends, they played at the lake, she was prefect, she was head girl, she was good in charms and potions. And JKR told us in interview that she was pretty and popular (which I had picked up from OOTP anyway). We knew she was brave as she had turned down an offer from Voldy to join him (interview) and from the books that she defied Voldy with her husband 3 times. She was a loving wife and mother and they seemed pretty happy and normal in the scenes we saw and photos, etc. I felt from the scene we had with her that she was fiesty and funny and had a sense of humor and could be quick to anger, imo - and we found out she would be cheeky with Slughorn, perhaps she got on with him as a professor - and she fell in love in 7th year. We also knew she had compassion and sacrificed herself for her son from Harry's visions early on. We knew she was muggleborn and the only witch in her family and her parents were happy about it, but her sister wasn't from the early books. Plus we heard a lot of things about Harry's "Parents" in tandem - in as far as what they did and how they were (working for th Order and such in OOTP). Having written it all out, I feel that we found out quite a bit about her actually - considering she'd died prior to the start of the series.



Well I feel it was based on what I have written above. I think that is actually more than we know about people like Cho, Pansy, Pavarati, and even some of the males like Dean, Seamus and so on, and they were in all 7 books. So I feel that JKR did a good job at informing us of Lily's character, despite keeping her somewhat shrouded in mystery to some degree.

I don't think is makes sense to compare her to Cho, Pansy and Pavarati. Surely you don't think they are of comparable importance? I'm comparing Lily to James. And in that comparison, while the things you point out are accurate (although some appear to have come from interviews, which is not relevant in my opinion) they still leave Lily a little one dimensional in comparison to James. James is shown to be flawed, to be human, to be capable of personal growth, to make errors of judgment; his character is integral to Harry's development. Lily is pretty, popular and self sacrificing. I, personally, would have liked more depth.

On another note, Lily had an interview with Voldy??? Did I miss something or are you saying you got this from an interview with JKR? ....what kind of interview questions does Lord Voldemort ask? (I guess he forgot the "are you muggleborn" one) I wish we had seen more of Voldy's rise to power: then again, I found that character to be rather one dimensional as well so a scene between L and V would have been awesome.

And Harry loved her very much - so while for me as a reader I can see the 'object of love' idea, from an in-story view, I felt that Harry could revel in her love in quite a real way - and I think that was brought out in the Forest Again chapter in DH with both his parents. I think Snape, Sirius, Lupin, Dumbledore, Hagrid, Voldemort, and likely others also considered her "in story" in their own terms that moved beyond basic descriptors.

Well, by object of desire, I meant that she was the object of Snape's desire; that is, the one person who loved her independently of her relationship with James, had romantic feelings for her. I think we can infer from Snape's memories that his feelings for her were based on more than physical desire, but Lily is still a female that is mostly defined through her relationship with males. I get that in the memories we see of her, she is depicted as independent, strong willed and loyal. But as a reader, I'm left unsatisfied that she ends up getting subsumed within her husband's story. Just my two cents!

i'm not disagreeing that it is normal and fine for her to become close with her husband's friends...but there is certainly no evidence that of the opposite happening; James becoming close with Lily's circle of friends. In fact all we see is him hexing Snape, although that is before James is together with Lily. So to me there is a lack of equivalency in the James/Lily relationship; Lily is absorbed into the guys' world (it is, after all, pretty much a male story).

I totally agree with this. Lily is made part of James and the Marauders' world, but we see no equivalence in the opposite direction.

And while I realise this is because of the mechanics of the plot, I think that Lily's portrayal then becomes very relevant from a feminist perspective.

If your best friend's fiancee leaves all her friends behind or doesn't appear to have ever made any lasting friendships that are important to her to share with her husband, she comes off as rather weak or shallow, imo. (I realize this is being interpreted by omission, but it is in comparison to her husband's well fleshed out friendships.)

To be fair to the character, I don't see her as weak or shallow at all. She does come over to me quite positively, as a feisty, compassionate young woman with her own mind. I tend to see Lily as a softer version of Ginny (with a touch of the bossy Hermione as well. :lol: )

I don't think is makes sense to compare her to Cho, Pansy and Pavarati. Surely you don't think they are of comparable importance? I'm comparing Lily to James. And in that comparison, while the things you point out are accurate (although some appear to have come from interviews, which is not relevant in my opinion) they still leave Lily a little one dimensional in comparison to James. James is shown to be flawed, to be human, to be capable of personal growth, to make errors of judgment; his character is integral to Harry's development. Lily is pretty, popular and self sacrificing. I, personally, would have liked more depth.

Hmm. For me personally, I feel I know Lily rather better than James, from what canon we have.

Maybe it's because I like her more. :yuhup:

then again, I found that character to be rather one dimensional as well so a scene between L and V would have been awesome.

Boy, yes.

We don't see anything of the 'thrice defied Voldemort' Lily (or James) in actual canon.

i'm not disagreeing that it is normal and fine for her to become close with her husband's friends...but there is certainly no evidence that of the opposite happening; James becoming close with Lily's circle of friends. In fact all we see is him hexing Snape, although that is before James is together with Lily. So to me there is a lack of equivalency in the James/Lily relationship; Lily is absorbed into the guys' world (it is, after all, pretty much a male story).

I don't fault JKR on this. Molly was written the same - the friends we know she had were all from Arthur's work (Kingsley, Moody, Tonks, etc.) - they happened to be in the Order also. But we didn't see any girlfriends of hers come round and befriend Arthur. I would imagine Molly, like Lily, had girlfriends, but they were not relevant to the storyline, imo, so JKR didn't include them. Lily wasn't absorbed in my view, the only relevant part was her relationship with friends who would go on to relate to Harry (Sirius and Lupin).


James is shown to be flawed, to be human, to be capable of personal growth, to make errors of judgment; his character is integral to Harry's development. Lily is pretty, popular and self sacrificing. I, personally, would have liked more depth.

I thought JKR showed Lily's flaws of character (quick to anger and such), and imo, she showed her error in judgment when she had her end her friendship with Snape. She said that she'd been pretending and making excuses and all of that for years - and I felt she meant that had been an error in judgment, that she should not have done those things but rather ended the friendship sooner. However, I don't need people to be flawed and grow in order to appear human to me in a story, so she was fine to me. I didn't see James as any more flawed or human than her and to me. So we'd have to agree to disagree on this point. :)

We did not see Arthur's best friends either IMO. Those you've mentioned are not his best friends. They were friendly Order members interacting with one another for a common purpose IMO.

I think the absence of Lily's friends is so glaring, because so much of emphasis is placed on friendship in the Books and special emphasis is placed on James's friends.

Snape's and Lily's friendship was pretty important too. Lily benefited by that; she saved her son. Snape benefited by that too; it enabled him to turn away from the Dark.

Plus they had the years when they were best friends with each other. Those were good times too. It is only after that there is a huge void in Lily's life IMO. She is unable to get close to anyone else like she did with Snape IMO.

I think the absence of Lily's friends is so glaring, because so much of emphasis is placed on friendship in the Books and special emphasis is placed on James's friends.

Well, I wouldn't say I find it 'glaring'. As I say, I find it interesting to analyse Lily and her particular sphere from a feminist angle. HP really is a very male-dominated saga in some respects. :whistle:

Snape's and Lily's friendship was pretty important too. Lily benefited by that; she saved her son.

Um, yeah, but she also got murdered. :err: (Please note that I do not hold Snape wholly responsible for this!)

Plus they had the years when they were best friends with each other. Those were good times too.

IMO, they weren't. Look, I really like their friendship :) but practically every time we see Lily and Sev in canon, they're arguing. :whistle: Lily was genuinely worried about the direction Sev's life was going in. So things were not all rosy in the garden, not by a long shot. Any further discussion on this belongs in the Snape and Lily thread though. :)

It is only after that there is a huge void in Lily's life IMO. She is unable to get close to anyone else like she did with Snape IMO.

There is no canon on which to base such a sweeping assumption, IMO. Surely Lily got closer to James: she married the guy, after all, and had his child.

If JKR had wanted us to think that Lily was lonely and bereft of friendship after she got together with James, she would have written hints into the series that this was the case.

Instead, the impression I get from the letter Lily writes to Sirius is of a woman who dearly loves her husband and her baby son and is generally a bright, positive, compassionate person (she cries when she hears about the murder of a fellow Order member). Apart from the obvious strain she was under at the time, living in hiding (and about to be betrayed by Peter :sigh: ) Lily sounds as positive as anyone can, under those circumstances.

To be fair to the character, I don't see her as weak or shallow at all. She does come over to me quite positively, as a feisty, compassionate young woman with her own mind. I tend to see Lily as a softer version of Ginny (with a touch of the bossy Hermione as well. :lol: )

Oh no, I don't see Lily as weak or shallow either....I meant WWB's example of his best friend's fiancee, that that is how I would interpret that person in real life (one who ditches their friends when they find a man or who had not made friends worth keeping to begin with).

And WWB...your notion that Lily and Molly had girlfriends not relevant to the plot is kind of my whole problem. Why is it okay for women not to have influential and powerful friends? And, if like you, one completely devalues Lily's friendship with Snape as being anything meaningful then it's even worse; there really is no relationship to understand her by that isn't related to her husband. I personally don't devalue that friendship and think that the biggest insights into Lily's character are that she remained his friend and stood up for him when it was socially difficult to do so, she tried to help him when he starting sliding down a dark path, and she left the friendship when it became damaging to her person.

Well, I wouldn't say I find it 'glaring'. As I say, I find it interesting to analyse Lily and her particular sphere from a feminist angle. HP really is a very male-dominated saga in some respects. :whistle:

Um, yeah, but she also got murdered. :err: (Please note that I do not hold Snape wholly responsible for this!)

IMO, they weren't. Look, I really like their friendship :) but practically every time we see Lily and Sev in canon, they're arguing. :whistle: Lily was genuinely worried about the direction Sev's life was going in. So things were not all rosy in the garden, not by a long shot. Any further discussion on this belongs in the Snape and Lily thread though. :)

There is no canon on which to base such a sweeping assumption, IMO. Surely Lily got closer to James: she married the guy, after all, and had his child.

If JKR had wanted us to think that Lily was lonely and bereft of friendship after she got together with James, she would have written hints into the series that this was the case.

Instead, the impression I get from the letter Lily writes to Sirius is of a woman who dearly loves her husband and her baby son and is generally a bright, positive, compassionate person (she cries when she hears about the murder of a fellow Order member). Apart from the obvious strain she was under at the time, living in hiding (and about to be betrayed by Peter :sigh: ) Lily sounds as positive as anyone can, under those circumstances.

I agree with all of the foregoing. :tu:. I would only add that I felt the series was not written in such a way as to show who people lunched with or went out on the town with and such, except in terms of the trio, imo. So that is why I think we are just given the basics with respect to all of the other characters. Lily we know became close to those working with her on a daily basis and were also friends outside of that, first with her husband and later, imo, with her. But we don't hear of James having personal time with Sirius, Lupin or Peter either, because it was not important to the story, imo.

Remember when Molly was crying over the Boggart and Lupin hugged her and comforted her - and she asked who would care for her children if she and Arthur died, and Lupin said he and everyone else (presumably in the Order) would, and Molly was reassured in that scene (OOTP). This was the way that JKR was able to show relationships develop, rather than having them go out together to the show in the evening and that sort of thing. To me, it would be the same with Lily and James. If one of Lily's friends came by for dinner and a night out - it isn't something that would make the books, imo, because JKR was not developing the social relationships and situations for these characters, imo. We don't know what McGonagall or Snape did in all of their free time or if they visited people they called friends or what, or Dumbledore - and even people who were around Harry more like Pansy and Draco - we weren't given the nature of their friendship in detail, or how they related with one another's friends, etc., and I feel it was simply not an aspect included in the series. We learn more of Sirius, Lupin, Peter, Dumbledore and Snape in relation to Harry's parents because they were in the surrounding subplots, imo.

Um, yeah, but she also got murdered. :err:

Yes she did. Peter betrayed them to Voldemort.

IMO, they weren't. Look, I really like their friendship :) but practically every time we see Lily and Sev in canon, they're arguing. :whistle: Lily was genuinely worried about the direction Sev's life was going in. So things were not all rosy in the garden, not by a long shot. Any further discussion on this belongs in the Snape and Lily thread though. :)

If it was not, then I don't think Lily would hold on to a friendship, in which they were fighting all the time and in which she was not happy at all for over 6 years. She not only met him in School, she also saw him during the holidays. So their friendship was all the year around and they stayed friends until the time (sometime in fifth years IMO) when Lily started moving away.

If Lily did not consider Snape as her friend and if their friendship was one long argument or fight, seeing they were in different Houses, I think Lily would have broken off a long before she did in canon.

Snape was fascinated by the dark arts, he was calling every muggleborn, mudblood; Lily knew that; but her friendship to him was more important that his habits at one time; then it changed IMO.

There is no canon on which to base such a sweeping assumption, IMO. Surely Lily got closer to James: she married the guy, after all, and had his child.

Yes; and I also think she was very close to Sirius, thought affectionately about Peter (the letter) and also liked Remus and never thought anything about his 'furry problem'.

But they were James's friends; not hers, and while James was the boy she fell in love with, surely for such a popular girl, Lily would have had other friends. There is no one in canon. James was also her friend I assume. But surely she would have had friends outside of her husband and his friends.

James had other friends for instance. Lily would have been his best friend too; but his very best friend was Sirius; then he was friends with Remus and Peter.

Lily has no one like that, whom we see in canon. Instead she simply takes on James's friends as her friends. Which was why I felt her identity was blended with James's and was not her own.

Oh no, I don't see Lily as weak or shallow either....I meant WWB's example of his best friend's fiancee, that that is how I would interpret that person in real life (one who ditches their friends when they find a man or who had not made friends worth keeping to begin with).

Ah. :) Thanks for clarifying. :tu:

I personally don't devalue that friendship and think that the biggest insights into Lily's character are that she remained his friend and stood up for him when it was socially difficult to do so, she tried to help him when he starting sliding down a dark path, and she left the friendship when it became damaging to her person.

Totally how I see it too. :agree:

But we don't hear of James having personal time with Sirius, Lupin or Peter either, because it was not important to the story, imo.

That's perfectly true, actually. :cool:

We learn more of Sirius, Lupin, Peter, Dumbledore and Snape in relation to Harry's parents because they were in the surrounding subplots, imo.

Yes, quite. :cool: And they are all, I note, MEN. :yuhup: :p

Yes she did. Peter betrayed them to Voldemort.

Yes, and his betrayal was definitely the worst: but it was Severus's fault that Voldemort ever targeted Lily and her family in the first place, let's not forget!

But they were James's friends; not hers, and while James was the boy she fell in love with, surely for such a popular girl, Lily would have had other friends. There is no one in canon. James was also her friend I assume. But surely she would have had friends outside of her husband and his friends.

Sure, but this is all plot mechanics. I would still say it was a big stretch to assume there was a 'big void' in Lily's life, because canon doesn't indicate that one way or the other.

Lily has no one like that, whom we see in canon. Instead she simply takes on James's friends as her friends. Which was why I felt her identity was blended with James's and was not her own.

Well, I guess I see Lily differently from the way you do. :) I do see HP as a male-centric saga, mostly, and I take the point that Lily's closest friendships are all portrayed as male ones (thus undergirding the male-centric framework of the series) but I don't see her as subsumed into James.

Oh no, I don't see Lily as weak or shallow either....I meant WWB's example of his best friend's fiancee, that that is how I would interpret that person in real life (one who ditches their friends when they find a man or who had not made friends worth keeping to begin with).

She didn't dump her friends, I have befriended some of them as well. I was explaining how relationships form and ones circle of friends enlarges as a result.

And WWB...your notion that Lily and Molly had girlfriends not relevant to the plot is kind of my whole problem. Why is it okay for women not to have influential and powerful friends?

Well as Pearl pointed out, the series was somewhat male oriented because the hero was a young male growing into manhood, imo. I didn't see Sirius, Peter and Lupin as influential and powerful in the wizard world - so I am not sure what you mean.

And, if like you, one completely devalues Lily's friendship with Snape as being anything meaningful then it's even worse; there really is no relationship to understand her by that isn't related to her husband. I personally don't devalue that friendship and think that the biggest insights into Lily's character are that she remained his friend and stood up for him when it was socially difficult to do so, she tried to help him when he starting sliding down a dark path, and she left the friendship when it became damaging to her person.

I didn't see it as a matter of devaluation. It is just that there was no love lost between Harry and Snape - they loathed one another, imo. So while there could have been an old friend of Lily's who made a positive impact and contribution to his life, that didn't happen because of Snape's behavior, imo. Too, Snape and Lily were not friends after 5th year, so he isn't an old 'friend to the end' the way the others were, imo. They all grew up with Lily also, lived in the same house and shared a common room with her - so I don't really distinguish Snape as a better friend than they were in the scheme of things - they were there from start to finish, but Lily ended her friendship with Snape in 5th.

Now in terms of inspiring Snape's loyalties to change - I think that is a different matter. I feel she was able to do that, shortly before her death and after she died - but that was only relevant to Snape - not to Lily, imo. In terms of showing that Lily was willing to remain friends with Snape and try to help him when young - I agree that showed another aspect of her young character, but I don't see that as more relevant than her showing a willingness to tell off a boy she liked and deny him a date at that same young age and wait until his head shrunk to date him and definitively fall in love (OOTP) - or her defense of Lupin while speaking to Snape (DH) at that young age, or how she dealt with Snape when he became jealous or defended his friends use of dark magic - and all the other issues raised in the memories. I feel all these things showed us various aspects of Lily's young character if one focuses on her repsonses and behavior as well as the ideas she expressed, imo.

She didn't dump her friends, I have befriended some of them as well. I was explaining how relationships form and ones circle of friends enlarges as a result.

Yes, I get that, but only Lily's circle grew larger...not James'. That was my point.



Well as Pearl pointed out, the series was somewhat male oriented because the hero was a young male growing into manhood, imo. I didn't see Sirius, Peter and Lupin as influential and powerful in the wizard world - so I am not sure what you mean.

Yes, this is also true (it being a male-oriented story). That's why I was confused as to why you "didn't fault" JKR for emphasizing male friendship....it's her story! Also, I didn't mean that James' friends were powerful in a magic sense, but that that they were powerful and influential in a story that is about love and the strength of connections with other people.


I didn't see it as a matter of devaluation. It is just that there was no love lost between Harry and Snape - they loathed one another, imo. So while there could have been an old friend of Lily's who made a positive impact and contribution to his life, that didn't happen because of Snape's behavior, imo. Too, Snape and Lily were not friends after 5th year, so he isn't an old 'friend to the end' the way the others were, imo. They all grew up with Lily also, lived in the same house and shared a common room with her - so I don't really distinguish Snape as a better friend than they were in the scheme of things - they were there from start to finish, but Lily ended her friendship with Snape in 5th.

Well Snape's failures/issues are really his own story, but suffice to say, I don't see how it can be argued that he and Lily did not have a meaningful relationship....they were friends for a longer period of time than Lily was friends with James or Sirius. I'm not sure that living in the same house meant that much before Lily started dating James. Harry and Lavender were in the same house and, while commonly bonded through Gryffindor, didn't appear to become friends through that shared identity or close living quarters.


Now in terms of inspiring Snape's loyalties to change - I think that is a different matter. I feel she was able to do that, shortly before her death and after she died - but that was only relevant to Snape - not to Lily, imo. In terms of showing that Lily was willing to remain friends with Snape and try to help him when young - I agree that showed another aspect of her young character, but I don't see that as more relevant than her showing a willingness to tell off a boy she liked and deny him a date at that same young age and wait until his head shrunk to date him and definitively fall in love (OOTP) - or her defense of Lupin while speaking to Snape (DH) at that young age, or how she dealt with Snape when he became jealous or defended his friends use of dark magic - and all the other issues raised in the memories. I feel all these things showed us various aspects of Lily's young character if one focuses on her repsonses and behavior as well as the ideas she expressed, imo.

Well, yes, but as previously discussed, we are only seeing Lily as a part of Snape's deathbed confession of his life's failures. We don't know how he did or did not influence her. I would argue that perhaps we get some hint that Snape helped Lily in potions and let her take the glory seeing as Slughorn praises her potions talents (not Snape's) and we can later infer that she was pals with the Half Blood Prince. (That's not to say she wasn't perfectly capable in potions, but the HBP seems to have elevated it to an art.)
But that is a discussion for the Lily/Snape thread....

Yes, I get that, but only Lily's circle grew larger...not James'. That was my point.

I respect your view, but I don't really see it as Lily's circle of friends growing in this particular instance as she already knew these people. I would imagine she grew closer to them if they hung out more, and as I mentioned, I think it would have been normal for James grew closer to her friends also - but I don't feel that was really relevant to the story, so I feel that is why we were not given details. But both James and Lily were popular, so it is likely they already knew one another's friends quite well.

I don't see how it can be argued that he and Lily did not have a meaningful relationship.

I have not presented this argument, so I would not be able to address this as I am not sure what was intended.

I would argue that perhaps we get some hint that Snape helped Lily in potions and let her take the glory seeing as Slughorn praises her potions talents (not Snape's)

Well Slughorn said that Lily was good and there was no evidence that she was good because she had help - so I look at it as an example of JKR showing that women were talented in the wizard world of their own accord. I feel Lily was simply talented in her own right and did not rely on anyone else for help, be it Snape earlier on or James later. The potions book was for a 6th year course and Lily and Snape were not friends at that time, imo, so I don't feel Lily was around Snape when he started experimenting with his potions. Harry didn't work on that till 6th year and his class was up to date in potions ,iirc.

I respect your view, but I don't really see it as Lily's circle of friends growing in this particular instance as she already knew these people. I would imagine she grew closer to them if they hung out more, and as I mentioned, I think it would have been normal for James grew closer to her friends also - but I don't feel that was really relevant to the story, so I feel that is why we were not given details. But both James and Lily were popular, so it is likely they already knew one another's friends quite well.

Well, we are going around in circles. The problem then becomes: why weren't Lily's friends important? We're speculating about James' imaginary relationship with Lily's imaginary friends while the book explicitly describes Lily's real relationship with James' real friends. And I agree with TGW that it leaves Lily seeming a little diminished to not give her people in the story that she affected and connected to on her own.



I have not presented this argument, so I would not be able to address this as I am not sure what was intended.

I believe you said that her friendship with Snape was an "error in judgment" on her part; something she goes on to correct by cutting ties with him....I would interpret that as not seeing the relationship as something meaningful from Lily's perspective.



Well Slughorn said that Lily was good and there was no evidence that she was good because she had help - so I look at it as an example of JKR showing that women were talented in the wizard world of their own accord. I feel Lily was simply talented in her own right and did not rely on anyone else for help, be it Snape earlier on or James later. The potions book was for a 6th year course and Lily and Snape were not friends at that time, imo, so I don't feel Lily was around Snape when he started experimenting with his potions. Harry didn't work on that till 6th year and his class was up to date in potions ,iirc.

Oh yes, I'm aware that the HBP book is from the 6th year, but I'm guessing that Snape must have been talented in Potions earlier than that. And I think that obviously Lily was good in Potions on her own accord; I'm just extrapolating from the fact that Slughorn implies that Lily was better in potions than Snape (through his praise of Harry), when Harry is actually using Snape's potion book. Thus Lily and Snape seem to have been of equal talent, but Lily is more recognized for it (that's what I mean by taking the glory, not that she was less talented/capable than Snape).

But they were James's friends; not hers, and while James was the boy she fell in love with, surely for such a popular girl, Lily would have had other friends. There is no one in canon. James was also her friend I assume. But surely she would have had friends outside of her husband and his friends.

James had other friends for instance. Lily would have been his best friend too; but his very best friend was Sirius; then he was friends with Remus and Peter.

Lily has no one like that, whom we see in canon. Instead she simply takes on James's friends as her friends. Which was why I felt her identity was blended with James's and was not her own.

I believe other friends of Lily were not mentioned because they weren't important ot the story, to the plot. The Marauders were, however, they are deeply involved in everything that happens to them and to Harry and his friends some sixteen years later. If Lily and Mary remained friends and got together for a coffe every now and then it isn't important enough to mention. I don't believe Lily's identity could 'blend' with anyone, she's much to headstrong and determined for that IMO.
On another note: There is a lot we don't see through the story, for instance we don't see SWM from Lily's point of view and we don't actually know how she felt about it, how she felt about walking away from such a long friendship even if she was right in doing so.
Then again, there is a long line of events that we miss: not to forget that Lily and Sev broke friendship in their fifth year, and Lily only started going out with James in their seventh year. That's two years in which many things must have happened if James was able to step forward from 'arrogant toerag' to boyfriend.
On the whole: we see very little of Lily throughout the series IMO. I know that was deliberate, not to draw too much attention, or something of the sort, but I found it unnerving that Harry isn't looking for her in SWM. In my case it worked the other way around: I kept asking myself why didn't he... My point: we have certain facts to decide her character on, and that's all we have. Knowing that she had a child with James and she seemed happy about it we must assume she had a good relationship with him.
We don't know however how she fel about Sev, whether she felt sorry for their friendship to fall apart (though I think she did), or whether she ever spared a thought for him afterwards: this was not important to the story again. Snape's view on the issue and his poin of view is of the essence...

Well, we are going around in circles. The problem then becomes: why weren't Lily's friends important? We're speculating about James' imaginary relationship with Lily's imaginary friends while the book explicitly describes Lily's real relationship with James' real friends. And I agree with TGW that it leaves Lily seeming a little diminished to not give her people in the story that she affected and connected to on her own.

I see what you are saying. I guess I just don't really see how she is diminished by becoming better friends with her housemates she'd known as long as James had, just not hung out with as much. To me it was like the development of Harry's friendship with Luna or Neville, which evolved later than it did with his other friends, but they were casual friends prior to that time, imo. Also, I feel that since she was with her friends we didn't meet in SWM and she mentioned friends in DH who we didn't meet, I assume she had other good friends and things progressed normally from there. So yeah, I think it is something we should agree to disagree on.

I believe you said that her friendship with Snape was an "error in judgment" on her part; something she goes on to correct by cutting ties with him....I would interpret that as not seeing the relationship as something meaningful from Lily's perspective.

Ah - no, I didn't say that. I said that I saw Lily's response to Snape heading down the wrong path as an error in judgment because that is how I felt she expressed it. I felt she was saying that she should not have pretended or made excuses for years, but rather acknowledged the truth from the start. So that was the error in judgment I felt she was expressing. I feel she would have either resolved the issues or ended the friendship sooner if she hadn't spent time pretending and making excuses instead. I feel personally that the friendship would have ended sooner because I don't think Snape was willing to change at that point in his life - however, that is merely my opinion. But that was what I felt was an error in judgment on Lily's part - not the friendship itself.

Oh yes, I'm aware that the HBP book is from the 6th year, but I'm guessing that Snape must have been talented in Potions earlier than that. And I think that obviously Lily was good in Potions on her own accord; I'm just extrapolating from the fact that Slughorn implies that Lily was better in potions than Snape (through his praise of Harry), when Harry is actually using Snape's potion book. Thus Lily and Snape seem to have been of equal talent, but Lily is more recognized for it (that's what I mean by taking the glory, not that she was less talented/capable than Snape).

Well I feel when Slughorn told Snape that Harry's potion was better than one he'd made, he was infering that Snape had done a good job on the potion when young in 6th year also, and so I felt Slughorn acknowledged his ability also (HBP). In addition, to my memory, Slughorn only said that Harry showed an aptitude for potions as his mother had, not that either was the greatest potion maker of all time or anything along those lines - so I don't feel that Lily was being praised beyond all recognition or anything - my impression was that Slughorn was merely saying that she, among others, had been good in potions and Harry showed that same aptitude.

I believe other friends of Lily were not mentioned because they weren't important ot the story, to the plot. The Marauders were, however, they are deeply involved in everything that happens to them and to Harry and his friends some sixteen years later. If Lily and Mary remained friends and got together for a coffe every now and then it isn't important enough to mention. I don't believe Lily's identity could 'blend' with anyone, she's much to headstrong and determined for that IMO.

Had Lily a close friend, like Sirius or Remus, he/she would IMO be a lot more involved with Lily's life. Like Snape was, like Sirius was, like Hermione, Ron and Harry were to each other. I was not talking about casual friendships; Lily probably had those with other Order members, I was talking about a deep friendship, the likes of which she shared with Snape for a while IMO.

On another note: There is a lot we don't see through the story, for instance we don't see SWM from Lily's point of view and we don't actually know how she felt about it, how she felt about walking away from such a long friendship even if she was right in doing so.

That was a memory and so it was accurate IMO. It was not from Snape's point of view. But I think what Lily felt about it; she made it clear to Snape that night.

Then again, there is a long line of events that we miss: not to forget that Lily and Sev broke friendship in their fifth year, and Lily only started going out with James in their seventh year. That's two years in which many things must have happened if James was able to step forward from 'arrogant toerag' to boyfriend.

Perhaps; but I was not talking about Lily's friendship with James, which probably came as they started dating, but Lily's friends as such.

My point: we have certain facts to decide her character on, and that's all we have. Knowing that she had a child with James and she seemed happy about it we must assume she had a good relationship with him.

I agree she had a great relationship with James. I also agree we have nothing much about Lily, only I feel it's because there was nothing much to say once she broke off with Snape. She went out with James, married him, joined the Order and then died protecting Harry.

We are not given enough details about her friends, maybe because she did not have them. Not friends like Snape and by that I mean very close friends.

My problem is there is no mention of them in canon by Sirius or Remus. A line would have sufficed. Someone who was very close to her. Her friend.

But in canon her friends after Snape are James's friends.

I believe other friends of Lily were not mentioned because they weren't important ot the story, to the plot. The Marauders were, however, they are deeply involved in everything that happens to them and to Harry and his friends some sixteen years later. If Lily and Mary remained friends and got together for a coffe every now and then it isn't important enough to mention. I don't believe Lily's identity could 'blend' with anyone, she's much to headstrong and determined for that IMO.
On another note: There is a lot we don't see through the story, for instance we don't see SWM from Lily's point of view and we don't actually know how she felt about it, how she felt about walking away from such a long friendship even if she was right in doing so.
Then again, there is a long line of events that we miss: not to forget that Lily and Sev broke friendship in their fifth year, and Lily only started going out with James in their seventh year. That's two years in which many things must have happened if James was able to step forward from 'arrogant toerag' to boyfriend.
On the whole: we see very little of Lily throughout the series IMO. I know that was deliberate, not to draw too much attention, or something of the sort, but I found it unnerving that Harry isn't looking for her in SWM. In my case it worked the other way around: I kept asking myself why didn't he... My point: we have certain facts to decide her character on, and that's all we have. Knowing that she had a child with James and she seemed happy about it we must assume she had a good relationship with him.
We don't know however how she fel about Sev, whether she felt sorry for their friendship to fall apart (though I think she did), or whether she ever spared a thought for him afterwards: this was not important to the story again. Snape's view on the issue and his poin of view is of the essence...

Good points and I agree. However, I would add that I think JKR was intentionally giving us some back story on Harry's dad. If she hadn't, all we would be able to say about him was that he was like Harry in ways, imo. Think about it - the storyline would end up: Harry was raised by Lily's sister and involved in her subplot; Lily was friends with Snape and involved in his subplot; Lily was the parent Voldy asked to stand aside resulting in his wispiness and the subsequent old magic that gave protection for Harry, so involved in Voldemort's subplot too. These are things we learn about Lily along the way and they are elaborated on through the subplots (actions and behaviors) of others. I feel JKR thought about this and realized Harry's father would have no real purpose in the storyline other than to have been 'dad' - even if he remained the object of Snape's dislike and jealousy, that would tell us little about the man himself because we'd only have descriptors via an enemy, imo (as the guy Lily married and a youthful enemy of Snape).

So I feel that JKR was actually trying to even out the balance a little and give us a bit of story about Harry's dad in his own right, because he was not as tied to Petunia/Snape or Voldemort in a significant way that could help us get to know him, imo. Petunia and Voldy didn't speak about him hardly at all and Snape's view was completely one sided, imo. So showing James youth and sharing insights through those who would have subplots in the storyline (Lupin/Sirius) was a way to give him an even shake in the deal, imo. So you get the patronus which gave us an idea of overall characterization through Harry, and later little tidbits from Sirius and Lupin - to counteract those strictly negative opinions we heard from Snape, imo. We hear from Hagrid and Dumbledore about him (and Lily too) - but neither of them were of an age with Harry's parents. In reality, it only showed the same about him that it did for Lily in the long run, imo, and it kind of evened things out a little to me.

Sirius and Lupin often spoke in terms of Harry's parents - lumping them together in regards to things they spoke about in the development of his learning about them, imo. So I think in the end we get a pretty balanced picture of both parents, which would not have been possible if she hadn't been able to link others (outside of Voldy, Snape and Petunia) to James.

I felt I got to know who Lily was to the same degree as James - and oddly, the negativity of Voldemort and Petunia about Lily was written so that their comments came across to me as positives about her. For example, Voldemort was putting her down for being loving, well he may have meant it negatively, but I saw it as a good thing. Petunia put her down for her magical ability and being a witch - doing spells at home and such and again, she meant it negatively, but I didn't see it as such and instead thought of her as a young witch like Ginny and others who might do magic at home and her sister, jealous. Snape never spoke of Lily, however, his memories showed us some things about her character also. So I think we got quite a bit of canon about her, simply not in the same way that we got it about James. Although I feel that in both cases things had to be parsed to some degree, depending on the speaker.

I see what you are saying. I guess I just don't really see how she is diminished by becoming better friends with her housemates she'd known as long as James had, just not hung out with as much. To me it was like the development of Harry's friendship with Luna or Neville, which evolved later than it did with his other friends, but they were casual friends prior to that time, imo. Also, I feel that since she was with her friends we didn't meet in SWM and she mentioned friends in DH who we didn't meet, I assume she had other good friends and things progressed normally from there. So yeah, I think it is something we should agree to disagree on.

Agreed. :p



Ah - no, I didn't say that. I said that I saw Lily's response to Snape heading down the wrong path as an error in judgment because that is how I felt she expressed it. I felt she was saying that she should not have pretended or made excuses for years, but rather acknowledged the truth from the start. So that was the error in judgment I felt she was expressing. I feel she would have either resolved the issues or ended the friendship sooner if she hadn't spent time pretending and making excuses instead. I feel personally that the friendship would have ended sooner because I don't think Snape was willing to change at that point in his life - however, that is merely my opinion. But that was what I felt was an error in judgment on Lily's part - not the friendship itself.

Yes, I see what you are saying and that makes more sense. Thank you for the clarification. Although I, personally, like that she valued the friendship and worked hard to make it work...that's not easy to do at a young age and it says a lot about Lily. And as noted before, she left when he hurt her, which I also admired about her.



Well I feel when Slughorn told Snape that Harry's potion was better than one he'd made, he was infering that Snape had done a good job on the potion when young in 6th year also, and so I felt Slughorn acknowledged his ability also (HBP). In addition, to my memory, Slughorn only said that Harry showed an aptitude for potions as his mother had, not that either was the greatest potion maker of all time or anything along those lines - so I don't feel that Lily was being praised beyond all recognition or anything - my impression was that Slughorn was merely saying that she, among others, had been good in potions and Harry showed that same aptitude.

Yes, I think it's true that Slughorn basically praised Lily's general aptitude in potions (although it was very high praise)....it just seemed an odd discrepancy that Slughorn said Harry's (the HBP's) potion was better than Snape's (the HBP). In hindsight it seemed like a clue to the Lily/Snape relationship, but is complete 100% speculation on my part!

Had Lily a close friend, like Sirius or Remus, he/she would IMO be a lot more involved with Lily's life. Like Snape was, like Sirius was, like Hermione, Ron and Harry were to each other. I was not talking about casual friendships; Lily probably had those with other Order members, I was talking about a deep friendship, the likes of which she shared with Snape for a while IMO.
We are not given enough details about her friends, maybe because she did not have them. Not friends like Snape and by that I mean very close friends.
[...]
My problem is there is no mention of them in canon by Sirius or Remus. A line would have sufficed. Someone who was very close to her. Her friend.

But in canon her friends after Snape are James's friends.

I agree, there isn't anyone mentioned. I have a thought here though. I find it true that people make true and lasting friendships in their childhood, during school mostly. Adults rarely make such good and lasting friendships, and it makes sense because they usually have family to take care of ad to think about.
Now we know, that Lily did have a friend like that. She was pretty much grown up when that friendship fell apart, and after only two years she had a boyfriend and a pack of James' friends around her. So she probably didn't get the chanse to make new friends...

I agree, there isn't anyone mentioned. I have a thought here though. I find it true that people make true and lasting friendships in their childhood, during school mostly. Adults rarely make such good and lasting friendships, and it makes sense because they usually have family to take care of ad to think about. Now we know, that Lily did have a friend like that. She was pretty much grown up when that friendship fell apart, and after only two years she had a boyfriend and a pack of James' friends around her. So she probably didn't get the chanse to make new friends...

I think people can make extremely good, lasting and significant friendships when older, as well as when young. Also, Lily claimed she had friends that she was making excuses to - to me, if they were not very good friends, I don't feel they would have inquired into her friendship or that she wouldn't have taken the time to make excuses to them. It seems to me that surface friends wouldn't care what she did on her own time (imo), so I feel these were good, close friends to her. In addition, after OWLS, she didn't join Snape - she was with other friends down by the lake (OOTP SWM). I would assume these friends were good friends and I don't see why they would not have formed lasting relationships with her because she was a friendly person, who based on the memories was willing to make friends with others (DH TPT). I think it is most likely that these friends she spoke of and we saw her with were very good friends that she had lasting relationships with. Perhaps they were not order members or left town and married or whatever, or merely came by for coffee or to go out on the town, etc., when they were all older - but that is a part of the tale that is not detailed, so I don't feel I can reach a conclusion on how her lasting friendships played out precisely. I would not assume that these friends were all superficial friends to Lily, I don't think there is any canon to suggest they were. I didn't imagine Lily to be a superficial type of character - meaning a type of stereotypical popular girl character, with a lot of superficial friends she didn't care about and who didn't care about her, I felt just the opposite actually.

I think people can make extremely good, lasting and significant friendships when older, as well as when young. Also, Lily claimed she had friends that she was making excuses to - to me, if they were not very good friends, I don't feel they would have inquired into her friendship or that she wouldn't have taken the time to make excuses to them. It seems to me that surface friends wouldn't care what she did any on her own time (imo), so I feel these were good, close friends to her.


Oh believe me, any group of teenage girls would want to know exactly why Lily was hanging out with an unattractive and unpopular boy from Slytherin. It would not be any indication at all of the depth of her friendship with those girls (it's actually an indication of the opposite: the depth of her friendship with Snape, but I know full well you won't be able to see it that way. :p ). In fact I imagine she would get teased and alienated for it. Sorry, that is just the group nature of adolescent girls. The rest of what you wrote is all made up, which is fine and expresses a nice sentiment, but it doesn't reassure those of us who would have liked to know more about Lily's non-James relationships since it exists in your imagination and not the books. I do, however, agree with you that adults can make lasting friendships.

Oh believe me, any group of teenage girls would want to know exactly why Lily was hanging out with an unattractive and unpopular boy from Slytherin. It would not be any indication at all of the depth of her friendship with those girls (it's actually an indication of the opposite: the depth of her friendship with Snape, but I know full well you won't be able to see it that way. :p ). In fact I imagine she would get teased and alienated for it. Sorry, that is just the group nature of adolescent girls. The rest of what you wrote is all made up, which is fine and expresses a nice sentiment, but it doesn't reassure those of us who would have liked to know more about Lily's non-James relationships since it exists in your imagination and not the books. I do, however, agree with you that adults can make lasting friendships.

Well I was just giving my opinion based more on the fact that I don't feel Lily herself would be a caring friend, but cultivate a lot of superficial ones. That doesn't ring right to me, but I respect the fact that anything is possible. However, if she went for superficial friends, wouldn't that include Snape? Why would she be different with one hard to have friend (hard meaning rival house, differing views, dislikes his friends and they dislike hers, etc.) My view of Lily was of a good and caring person, who formed normal friendships with others. I didn't feel that JKR was attempting to show her behaving in a superficial manner - or as a person that would cultivate superficial friends. I do feel JKR showed us a person behaving in that manner in Pansy. So I feel JKR can write a character of that type, but I didn't see Lily that way.

Well I was just giving my opinion based more on the fact that Lily herself would be a caring friend, but cultivate a lot of superficial ones. That doesn't ring right to me, but I respect the fact that anything is possible. However, if she went for superficial friends, wouldn't that include Snape? Why would she be different with one hard to have friend (hard meaning rival house, differing views, dislikes his friends and they dislike hers, etc.)

Huh? Sorry, I think you are completely misunderstanding me. I didn't say anything about Lily being a superficial friend. I made a point about how I felt other girls would respond to her hanging around with a socially undesirable boy. They would be nasty about it whether or not they were close friends with Lily; that is not a reflection of Lily's friendship skills. Hmmm...I don't understand your last sentence at all. Oh, do you mean that the depth of her relationship with Snape would be indicative of the depth of her relationships with other people? Well sure, but then we go back to the problem of there being no description of these incredible friends as being lasting and influential the way James' friends are portrayed. And then we're off into pretend world again....

Huh? Sorry, I think you are completely misunderstanding me. I didn't say anything about Lily being a superficial friend. I made a point about how I felt other girls would respond to her hanging around with a socially undesirable boy. They would be nasty about it whether or not they were close friends with Lily; that is not a reflection of Lily's friendship skills. Hmmm...I don't understand your last sentence at all. Oh, do you mean that the depth of her relationship with Snape would be indicative of the depth of her relationships with other people? Well sure, but then we go back to the problem of there being no description of these incredible friends as being lasting and influential the way James' friends are portrayed. And then we're off into pretend world again....

Well now we are back to Snape and Lily, so I will answer you there. :lol:.

I agree, there isn't anyone mentioned. I have a thought here though. I find it true that people make true and lasting friendships in their childhood, during school mostly. Adults rarely make such good and lasting friendships, and it makes sense because they usually have family to take care of ad to think about.
Now we know, that Lily did have a friend like that. She was pretty much grown up when that friendship fell apart, and after only two years she had a boyfriend and a pack of James' friends around her. So she probably didn't get the chanse to make new friends...

That could be the case; only we are not told in canon. She had two years after Snape and we have a name, Mary McDonald, who was Lily's friend. She is not mentioned in canon after the SWM, though. I do think it's possible to make lasting friendships when older too.

As far as Lily is concerned, from the time of the werewolf incident, that is sometime after that when Lily and Snape have their conversation, I feel Lily is different. From that memory (in the TPT) Lily is looking only through James's eyes as it were. In that memory she asks Snape to feel gratitude, instead of asking him if he was okay. He had nearly been killed. Then the SWM, where Lily was no longer Snape's friend, so she was giving pointers to James than anything else IMO.

The werewolf incident conversation and the SWM IMO make Lily something different from what I've been thinking of her for all the first six books.

She was no longer this perfect, dynamite, brave girl; she also showed some other characteristics which were not very nice and let her down badly in my eyes.

Snape and Lily did have something that they valued between them, to have stayed friends for 6 years. Snape saw something in her which inspired him. Both are canon. Which is why I feel that Lily around the werewolf incident started falling in love with James; she overheard (through James or Sirius IMO) a partial truth about the werewolf incident, where she did not know that Remus was a werewolf (she referred to him as a monster) and Sirius's involvement (she never speaks of that); but she knew James risked his life and saved Snape.

In truth that was wrong. James IMO did not risk his life. He was an animagus and at any point he could have turned into a stag, like Sirius did in POA. James was never at a risk. It was Snape who was at a risk and Lily does not acknowledge it, because she like Dumbledore (who says pretty much the same thing to Harry in his first year) did not know James was an animagus. Instead she asks Snape to be grateful to James.

Lily I feel chose love over friendship. She chose James over Snape and she slowly moved away from Snape, once she understood her feelings and broke off with him, knowing that Snape and James would never ever get along. She was forced to choose between the boy she liked and perhaps fast falling in love and with her best friend who badly needed her at that time. She choose love. I don't think that's wrong. Only, I don't think Lily's all perfect either. :)

Lily I feel chose love over friendship

And yet there were two years in-between. If she had really chosen James over Snape, wouldn't they have begun dating a lot sooner than seventh year? As I see it, Lily could no longer be Snape's friend because he himself made it impossible. Hating Muggles is a form of racism, in my view. Snape's attitude is like saying 'I look down upon all Turkish/Chinese/Norwegian/whatever people except you, only I might slip every now and then.' In my view, Lily's decision to move on shows that she has self-respect and is able to make hard decisions. Had she not reacted to the insult, she would have turned her back on the truth. Continuing to turn a blind eye would have been the easy way, in my opinion. For me, Lily became a stronger character through this decision, even though everything else we got about her is connected to motherhood. I really wish we could have seen her in a scene in which she was her own person and not a male character's love interest or mother.

And yet there were two years in-between. If she had really chosen James over Snape, wouldn't they have begun dating a lot sooner than seventh year?

Not necessarily IMO. Hermione was in love with Ron for ages. They kissed only in DH lol. Lily may have fallen for James, seeing his heroism in the werewolf incident and I think being very clever, she would have known almost at once that Snape and James getting along or even being sarcastically civil to each other was a no no. Add Sirius, Remus and simpering Peter, it would be an explosive situation which would mean more headaches than romance for Lily.

I think she gave the outline of what she expected from her boyfriend in the SWM and kept quiet watching. 7th year saw Lily and James as Head Boy and Girl and as such would have been together a lot more than before. James could have convinced her that he stopped the hexing and everything and Lily never seeing Snape against the Marauders (To be honest, your mother never knew about the hex wars - OOTP; not the exact words) she could have thought it had all stopped and James had changed, and so started going out with him.

As I see it, Lily could no longer be Snape's friend because he himself made it impossible. Hating Muggles is a form of racism, in my view. Snape's attitude is like saying 'I look down upon all Turkish/Chinese/Norwegian/whatever people except you, only I might slip every now and then.'

I agree. But Snape was like that for a long time; he was calling every muggle born names according to Lily. He just did not call her that. It was not as if Snape had changed his ideas about muggleborns in the middle; he was pretty much the same until his actions with the prophecy hit him hard.

But another thing which I'd like to say here is there is no canon of Snape calling other muggleborns mudblood to their face or doing them harm. If he had done that in the past, I think Lily would have ended the friendship much sooner. So I think it was basically referring to them, calling them Mudbloods to her.

His views at that time was wrong, no doubt, but those views he held for a long, long time, time when he was best friends with Lily IMO.

The fact Lily in Gryffindor is unable to find close Friends for 5 school years I think says a few things.

1) Her friendship with Snape was very close, satisfactory and deep. It was not a relationship she could throw off casually. Else, with the name Slytherin had and with the odd, awkward boy Snape was, Lily would have drifted apart in her first year itself. But they remain friends for much longer than that.

2) There was no one in Gryffindor or indeed in other Houses who were anywhere close to being her best friend, including Mary MacDonald. If there was, again Lily and Snape would have drifted apart.

Seeing how much Lily is being praised for her compassion and everything, how understanding she was and with the information that she was friends with Snape who had different ideas about muggles and muggleborns, I think Lily accepted Snape for what he was, name calling and all; his friendship was more important than his ideas about muggles and muggleborns, (for in canon Snape was the same until he changed much later) until she fell for James; from then on everything was different IMO.

In my view, Lily's decision to move on shows that she has self-respect and is able to make hard decisions. Had she not reacted to the insult, she would have turned her back on the truth. Continuing to turn a blind eye would have been the easy way, in my opinion. For me, Lily became a stronger character through this decision, even though everything else we got about her is connected to motherhood. I really wish we could have seen her in a scene in which she was her own person and not a male character's love interest or mother.

I would have agreed with this had Lily broken off her friendship the first time Snape called a muggleborn names. It was racist at that time too. She turned a blind eye until she found James as it were and then she dumped Snape. She gave all the right reasons, only those reasons were there for a long, long time, which IMO reduces the credibility and the honesty of her explanation and lowers her character, because she did not take the right option at the right time; both to keep the friendship and end it IMO.

The fact Lily in Gryffindor is unable to find close Friends for 5 school years I think says a few things.

Again, T_G_W, this is a huge assumption -- that Lily 'was unable to find close friends' --that is not actually based on anything we read in the narrative. :hmm:

I don't want to misrepresent your opinion :blush: but that almost comes across to me like a fanon theory being shoehorned into canon. :whistle:

It is true that JKR doesn't mention any close female friends of Lily's apart from Mary McDonald. However, in SWM we see Lily with a group of girlfriends down by the lake. The impression of Lily is of a friendly girl who would not have found it difficult to make friends. Why assume that after the tragic ending of her friendship with Severus (and I, like you, find it very sad) that Lily would not have been able to find other close friends afterwards -- or, indeed, that she did not already have them?

Severus is described as her best friend for a time, and that is true. Having a best friend does not preclude anyone from having other, close friends.

I'll reserve any further comments I might have to make on Lily's friendship with Severus for the Snape and Lily thread, obviously. :cool:

Again, T_G_W, this is a huge assumption -- that Lily 'was unable to find close friends' --that is not actually based on anything we read in the narrative. :hmm:

Well the absence of information of close friends in canon makes me interpret it like this. :)

In all honesty, this comes across to me like a fanon theory being shoehorned into canon.

There is no canon about Lily's close friends. :shrug:

It is true that JKR doesn't mention any close female friends of Lily's apart from Mary McDonald.

And she vanishes after the SWM. I am not talking about casual friends. Lily may have had a lot of them, both in School and later. Harry for instance was friends in Luna, Neville, Seamus, Dean and others. But they are not Ron and Hermione. Ron and Hermione are different. Snape and Lily were best friends like this. Like James and Sirius. After Snape, there is no mention of others in canon. In canon Lily assures Snape that she's still his best friend in the werewolf memory. At that time she's actually moving away from him; but the words 'best friend' suggests to me that they were best friends at a time, cutting across House enmity and everything. After Snape there's no one else mentioned IMO

Severus is described as her best friend for a time, and that is true. Having a best friend does not preclude anyone from having other, close friends.

I agree.

No one is mentioned as Lily's close friend(s) because it has absolutely no influence or importance on the plot. We see Hogwarts Lily from Snape's perspective, he was only focused on her and the marauders, no one else.

So either way it's impossible to make assumptions about Lily's friendships imo.

Well the absence of information of close friends in canon makes me interpret it like this. :)

Well, I respect that, and I respect that we read stuff in different ways :) but Canon Lily patently does not come over to me as a lonely girl who is unable to make close friends after the tragic end of her friendship with Severus. :whistle:

'Unable to make close friends' has connotations that to me are not supported by anything in canon. We simply don't have enough to go on for that.

It is not unreasonable to suppose that she was comforted by a gaggle of girlfriends in Gryffindor Tower after that, last, sad encounter with Severus. :whistle: But that, frankly, is sheer fanon speculation on my part. Fanon is fanon, canon is canon.

There is no canon about Lily's close friends. :shrug:

True, there isn't, but neither is there any canon to assume she was unable to form close friendships after she broke off her friendship with Severus.

And she vanishes after the SWM. I am not talking about casual friends. Lily may have had a lot of them, both in School and later. Harry for instance was friends in Luna, Neville, Seamus, Dean and others. But they are not Ron and Hermione. Ron and Hermione are different. Snape and Lily were best friends like this. Like James and Sirius. After Snape, there is no mention of others in canon. In canon Lily assures Snape that she's still his best friend in the werewolf memory. At that time she's actually moving away from him; but the words 'best friend' suggests to me that they were best friends at a time, cutting across House enmity and everything. After Snape there's no one else mentioned IMO

Yes, Lily disappears after the SWM -- as does James -- because the main narrative doesn't need them any more. They are characters who belong to the tragic Gothic backstory, JKR rarely brings them into the foreground. The most vivid glimpses we get of Lily and James is when they are teenagers. There ain't an awful lot more. There is tons missing simply because JKR didn't think it important enough to include it. Therefore it is just not necessary to the plot for JKR to mention every single girlfriend that Lily might have had. :shrug: What is crucial to the story is Lily's friendship with Severus. Which is why we get that, and not anything else.

Well, I respect that, and I respect that we read stuff in different ways :) but Canon Lily patently does not come over to me as a lonely girl who is unable to make close friends after the tragic end of her friendship with Severus. :whistle:

'Unable to make close friends' has connotations that to me are not supported by anything in canon. We simply don't have enough to go on for that.

It is not unreasonable to suppose that she was comforted by a gaggle of girlfriends in Gryffindor Tower after that, last, sad encounter with Severus. :whistle: But that, frankly, is sheer fanon speculation on my part. Fanon is fanon, canon is canon.



I quite agree, and I'd like to add that this holds true even if she didn't make any friends after Severus: that is mst probably not because of her inability to do so.


Yes, Lily disappears after the SWM -- as does James -- because the main narrative doesn't need them any more. They are characters who belong to the tragic Gothic backstory, JKR rarely brings them into the foreground. The most vivid glimpses we get of Lily and James is when they are teenagers. There ain't an awful lot more. There is tons missing simply because JKR didn't think it important enough to include it. Therefore it is just not necessary to the plot for JKR to mention every single girlfriend that Lily might have had. :shrug: What is crucial to the story is Lily's friendship with Severus. Which is why we get that, and not anything else.

Right, agreed here. The features of Lily's character that are important are drawn by the actions we are shown: she distances herself from a friend who has chosen a 'dark path', and she gives her life for her son. These are her features that we need to know, and that draw her character's outline for us. Whether she made friends easily or whether she has close girlfriends are really not important IMO, and thus omitted from the storyline.

She turned a blind eye until she found James as it were and then she dumped Snape.

Would you mind pointing me in the direction of canon scenes that back this up? I haven't read the books in over a year but, as I see it, Lily knew James since first year and she didn't 'dump' Snape then. I think being friends with Snape must have been hard on Lily because I can imagine that she had to justify herself constantly. I think we catch a glimpse of that when she tells Snape that she has been making excuses for him. In my view, she was a loyal friend until it was no longer possible to ignore Snape's DE ideology.

Would you mind pointing me in the direction of canon scenes that back this up? I haven't read the books in over a year but, as I see it, Lily knew James since first year and she didn't 'dump' Snape then.

The actual dumping? The night of the SWM IMO of course. The reasons she gave there were really not reasons at all. But I think it started with the werewolf memory.

For me that is the most callous memory along with Sirius's opinion about the werewolf incident in POA.

In both cases Lily and Sirius were completely uncaring of their best friend. Sirius when he said Snape deserved it, showing no remorse for an act that could have got Remus killed. He hated Snape, but he used his best friend to put some fear into a boy he disliked, never caring that his best friend would face consequences that would be truly horrible for him and for which he was not responsible.

Likewise I feel Lily's words after she assures Snape they are best friends are not words that friends speak, let alone best friends IMO. She told Snape to feel gratitude, when she should have been feeling concerned. I can understand if she felt grateful to James for saving Snape, but what irks me is that she did not say it that way. Instead she accused Snape for his lack of gratitude.

Was she Snape's friend at that time? I really don't think so. This happened sometime after the werewolf incident and I am presuming that Lily started seeing James differently after his 'heroic act'.

I still believe Lily could never replace Snape, and I hope she regretted her loss of friendship, but we'll never know. :)

I think being friends with Snape must have been hard on Lily because I can imagine that she had to justify herself constantly. I think we catch a glimpse of that when she tells Snape that she has been making excuses for him. In my view, she was a loyal friend until it was no longer possible to ignore Snape's DE ideology

Then why keep a friendship, where she has to justify her actions to everyone? I think she kept it, because the friendship was worth all the justification.

Snape's DE ideology was there for a long time. He was calling people racist names. She says she's been making excuses for him for years. Years, not months and neither is she talking about a sudden change in Snape's attitude, which makes her walk away.

Knowing what kind of ideology Snape had had for years, why did Lily need to make excuses for him, when she was so concerned about his attitude and behaviour?

1) They were in different Houses and so it would be easier to drift apart

2) If she had many, many friends and close ones too, why hang on to Snape?

I believe the answer is she loved him; as a friend of course, and I think she placed great value on that friendship; that her friendship was more important than her concerns. It's like when we are deeply in love with a person, their small irritations do not matter and we generally try and turn a blind eye to them. When we fall out of love, then its these minor irritations that actually loom large and make this person very unlovable. (I hope I expressed this love thingy properly).

But when she fell in love with James and realised that Snape and James were @!@%^, I think she chose and when she chose James, the very concerns until then she had shrugged off, became very big; she used them to severe a relationship, which I think hurt her as much as it hurt Snape.

The night of the SWM, Snape is totally bewildered about the reasons Lily gave to break off the friendship; he had been calling muggleborns names as long as he could remember and Lily never had a problem with it all those times. Suddenly, she was citing a reason which had not been a reason at all to break off.

In his heart I think he knew the real reason, which is why I think he left and never bothered her again. He knew she had chosen James over him and while it must have hurt him like hell, he walked away, respecting Lily's wishes.

Reasons Lily gave to break off with Snape and why I think they were not the real reasons.

1) Calling others mudblood - Snape had been doing it right from the beginning of their friendship

2) His fascination with the dark arts and how much he liked to read them up - Again this was common knowledge; even Sirius knew about it (GOF - Padfoot Returns) and Lily must have known about it even before Hogwarts probably, since at that time she had no one to tell her that the dark arts were wrong or evil. But she would have known once she came to Hogwarts. They stayed friends for 5 years once she started Hogwarts.

3) Joining Voldemort after 2 years - :huh: Lily was not a seer. While what she thought came true, she did not know that in her 5th year. She assumed Snape was going to be evil and broke off with him. That was downright mean IMO. She was calling him a DE before he became one. How wrong is that? There is a difference between knowing a person's committed a wrong and blaming a person for a wrong one thinks he's going to do after a few years.

Her reasons would have been valid, had Snape been part of the prank on Mary. Had he been practising the dark arts. Had he become a DE. None of these had happened. Which is why I feel that Lily chose between James and Snape.

Her reasons would have been valid, had Snape been part of the prank on Mary. Had he been practising the dark arts. Had he become a DE. None of these had happened. Which is why I feel that Lily chose between James and Snape.

I would respectfully disagree that her reasons were invalid. Snape said in the canon that what Mulciber had done to Mary "was nothing" and "it was a laugh - that's all" (DH TPT). In my judgment, that indicated he supported Mulciber's use of dark magic on Mary as okay to do because it amounted to nothing but a laugh. Snape did practice the dark arts at Hogwarts as provided in HBP, because he'd used it to create his curse Sectumsempra during that time and he himself claimed it was dark (HBP Sectumsempra). Lily didn't accuse Snape of being a DE, rather she accused him of not denying that he was aiming to be a Death Eater with his friends - that he couldn't wait to join You Know Who (DH TPT). Snape didn't deny it - and even after she stopped speaking, he opened his mouth and closed it without saying anything (DH TPT). Snape similarly struggled with speech when Lily claimed that he called everyone of her birth 'mudblood' and asked why she was any different (DH TPT).

I feel that Lily had very valid concerns regarding the issues you raised and that is why she brought them up when she ended the friendship. I feel that ending a friendship because the friend is planning to join up with a group like the DEs is a very valid reason (imo).

Snape's DE ideology was there for a long time. He was calling people racist names. She says she's been making excuses for him for years. Years, not months and neither is she talking about a sudden change in Snape's attitude, which makes her walk away. Knowing what kind of ideology Snape had had for years, why did Lily need to make excuses for him, when she was so concerned about his attitude and behaviour?

In my opinion it was because she didn't approve of Snape's ideology and normally did not cultivate friends moving under that ideology (imo).

I would respectfully disagree that her reasons were invalid. Snape said in the canon that what Mulciber had done to Mary "was nothing" and "it was a laugh - that's all" (DH TPT). In my judgment, that indicated he supported Mulciber's use of dark magic on Mary as okay to do because it amounted to nothing but a laugh.

But Lily did not give that as an answer. Her answer was slightly different IMO.

'I only came because Mary told me you were threatening to sleep here.'

'I was. I would have done. I never meant to call you Mudblood, it just -'

'Slipped out?' There was no pity in Lily's voice. 'It's too late. I've made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can even understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious death eater friends - you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?'

He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking.

'I can't pretend anymore. You've chosen your way. I've chosen mine.'

'No - listen, I didn't mean -'

'- to call me Mudblood? But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood Severus. Why should I be any different?

He struggled on the verge of speech, but with a contemptuous look she turned and climbed back into the portrait hole.

As I understand it,

1) Lily does not give Snape a chance to speak his side.

2) She assumes he's going to join Voldemort some vague time into the future

3) She accuses him of calling everyone of her birth by racist names; a fact she knew from long ago

4) She tells him her friends don't understand why she's still talking to him. Well, who stopped her from ending the friendship long back? The first time her friends told her all about Snape; the first time he called muggleborns names, the first time she realised she was pretending to have a friendship with a boy from a House that was looked upon with suspicion, with a boy who was an oddball, with no social niceties, who had no other friends, who was fascinated by the dark arts and who created dark spells?

Lily knew all these things she accuses Snape of and the accusation that she is sure he's going to join Voldemort is really unfair, because she is assuming that Snape is going to be a DE, going to be evil. It's like hanging a man, because his father was a serial killer. Snape was in Slytherin; he was hanging out with Avery and Mulciber and so Lily practically calls him a DE? Is that even a fair statement from a girl who's on the Light side?

Then are Sirius, Remus and James evil/DEs/traitors because they were best friends with Peter who was a DE and a traitor to boot? What was her logic in making that statement?

Lily didn't accuse Snape of being a DE, rather she accused him of not denying that he was aiming to be a Death Eater with his friends - that he couldn't wait to join You Know Who (DH TPT).

Where did she give him time to say anything. She came, she spoke and she went away lol.

Snape didn't deny it - and even after she stopped speaking, he opened his mouth and closed it without saying anything (DH TPT). Snape similarly struggled with speech when Lily claimed that he called everyone of her birth 'mudblood' and asked why she was any different (DH TPT).

The books says he struggled to say something, but before he could say something Lily went back into the portrait; I thought that was because he was shocked that she was breaking off their friendship for things she was well aware of and had accepted before.

I feel that Lily had very valid concerns regarding the issues you raised and that is why she brought them up when she ended the friendship. I feel that ending a friendship because the friend is planning to join up with a group like the DEs is a very valid reason (imo).

She assumed it; she did not know it. I think there is a great deal of difference between the two states.

Lily breaks off her friendship for reasons which I think have nothing to do with what she said on page; I think it's got a lot to do with what's implied in the werewolf memory and the SWM. And I think she missed Severus Snape a real lot, once he went away from her life. But I think she made a choice deliberately and so held on to it, for she was happy with James (I hope).

Lily knew all these things she accuses Snape of and the accusation that she is sure he's going to join Voldemort is really unfair, because she is assuming that Snape is going to be a DE, going to be evil. It's like hanging a man, because his father was a serial killer. Snape was in Slytherin; he was hanging out with Avery and Mulciber and so Lily practically calls him a DE? Is that even a fair statement from a girl who's on the Light side?She was right in her assumption, though - he did join the DE's.

I think this is again a problem we have by the interpretation of the few snippets we have about their relation only. As background we also know that Lily knew Snape very good and for a long time. She didn't spontaneously decide to quit the friendship to Snape, but thought of it for a very long time. To me the basis quote is "I can't pretend anymore. You've chosen your way. I've chosen mine." Maybe I relate so much to what she did because I know this feeling as teenager very well. I grew up with kids who I knew since we could even walk. Some of them found it 'cool' to join Nazi ideology around here as teenagers. For sure they didn't actually kill anyone, but found Hitlers ways more than neat, ran around in skinhead clothes, tried to look brutal, all this stuff. It was enough for me to quit those friendships.
In JK's world the 'evil' wizards actually do kill muggles and others. Lily had no proof that Snape was to become one of them, but he did support what his friends did. It's probably were we don't agree, but I think Lily knew him well enough to be safe in her assumption that he wanted to join the DEs (I know the theory that Snape might only joined them because Lily ended up the friendship, but for me that isn't visible in the text).

Back to Lily's character: That's why I think quitting the friendship to Snape was neither unfair nor a cowardly way of Lily, but one of her greatest strength. Imo JK made it clear that Lily tried for years to keep his friendship, not caring about any popularity issues. She pretend that he would come back, that he wouldn't be one of the 'evil' Slytherins - but he didn't and so she made her call.

Lily breaks off her friendship for reasons which I think have nothing to do with what she said on page;

I feel Gertie responded as I would have, so I won't repeat all of that. But I was curious as to why you felt JKR had Lily give these reasons on page if they were not true?

She was right in her assumption, though - he did join the DE's.
As background we also know that Lily knew Snape very good and for a long time. She didn't spontaneously decide to quit the friendship to Snape, but thought of it for a very long time. To me the basis quote is "I can't pretend anymore. You've chosen your way. I've chosen mine." Maybe I relate so much to what she did because I know this feeling as teenager very well. I grew up with kids who I knew since we could even walk. Some of them found it 'cool' to join Nazi ideology around here as teenagers. For sure they didn't actually kill anyone, but found Hitlers ways more than neat, ran around in skinhead clothes, tried to look brutal, all this stuff. It was enough for me to quit those friendships.
In JK's world the 'evil' wizards actually do kill muggles and others. Lily had no proof that Snape was to become one of them, but he did support what his friends did. It's probably were we don't agree, but I think Lily knew him well enough to be safe in her assumption that he wanted to join the DEs (I know the theory that Snape might only joined them because Lily ended up the friendship, but for me that isn't visible in the text).

Imo JK made it clear that Lily tried for years to keep his friendship, not caring about any popularity issues. She pretend that he would come back, that he wouldn't be one of the 'evil' Slytherins - but he didn't and so she made her call


Yes, she was right in her assumption, I agree, but that's a pretty lame reason to break a friendship IMO. I can understand a gut reaction which happens many times, one likes or dislikes people. I can also like you've written breaking off with these wannabe Nazis because people who were once friends suddenly changed thinking Hitler was cool.

But like you've written yourself Lily had no proof Snape was going to be like these DEs who actually killed and tortured.

My problem is what I've written before; everything she accuses him of while breaking the friendship (except assuming he was surely going on to become a DE) she was okay with for a long time.

Lily as she is portrayed until the SWM (after that we don't know) does not show patience; she shows dynamism, fierce loyalty and has the guts/courage to stand against anyone who talks down to her (her fierce glare and words to Snape when he says, I won't let you; she literally freezes him with her glare; she's not going to take orders from anyone; her reaction to James in the SWM for another example).

I doubt she would remain patient for 6+ years, trying to change Snape's outlook, while remaining best friends with him all the time. I don't think that is Lily's character. Like she told James in the SWM, "change and I'll consider you". She did not date him and than endeavour to change him IMO.

She was a teenage girl and when she says she tried for years, even if I take 3 years, does it mean Lily was trying to change Snape's attitude and his outlook from when she was 12? I don't think so. I think when Lily's talking about years, she means it as we do when we tend to exaggerate about things we like, dislike or adore.

We see Lily in the TPT and in the SWM. IN the TPT, Lily is shown to be interacting with Snape, Petunia, James and Sirius. With all of them, she is this fiery character with a mind of her own and she decides what she wants from everyone and everything.

If she's okay with peeping into Petunia's owls, she's okay with it; she's even prepared to use it to hurt Petunia, when Petunia hurts her in King's Cross.

So to believe that this girl who's pretty impatient with others and yet who's loyal and courageous, would spend years correcting Snape is rather hard to digest IMO.

She liked Snape; she wanted to be friends with this awkward boy; she was loyal to that friendship, even when Snape called others Mudblood, even when he read dark arts and even when he was in Slytherin.

Then came IMO a point where Lily felt she could not handle Snape's friendship, because she fell in love with her best friend's enemy; she had from the werewolf memory started seeing James favourably and then suddenly she realised Snape would never accept her feelings for James. That is the point I believe she starts moving away from Snape.

Which is why I find a comparison between Lily and Hermione's friendship so interesting (I remember starting a thread when I came here, but was turned down, since that topic was pretty controversial :)).

Hermione stays with Harry; chooses Harry instead of her love; when after such a long time she gets together with Ron and Harry strides forward in the right direction, while Lily leaves Snape for her love and Snape is lost for a brief while.

Please note I am not blaming Lily; I don't believe that Lily is to be blamed for Snape's choices, and it was Snape's choice to join where he wanted to be; what I'm trying to say is that at times our choices determine not only what we are as a person, but also it may spill on to others.

Choices are the theme of Harry Potter; almost everyone is victorious or suffers because of their choices, but at times, like James's choice of allowing himself to be persuaded to switch SK, affected not only himself and his wife, but also Sirius, who went to Azkaban and his child who suffered for that action.

Likewise it was Lily's choice to break away from Snape and she had all the right in the world to do so, only I don't think it was for the reasons mentioned, but because of the choice she made.

I think this is again a problem we have by the interpretation of the few snippets we have about their relation only.

But those snippets are given to show us how the character played out; what their words were indicative of, what the character was all about IMO.

Back to Lily's character: That's why I think quitting the friendship to Snape was neither unfair nor a cowardly way of Lily, but one of her greatest strength.

I completely agree that Lily was not wrong to end a friendship, to which she could not do justice. But, the reasons she gave are IMO weak and don't do justice to her, Snape and to their friendship.

Was she taking the cowardly way out? In a way I think so, but I believe that was because she could not explain to Snape about James.

I feel Gertie responded as I would have, so I won't repeat all of that. But I was curious as to why you felt JKR had Lily give these reasons on page if they were not true?

Because Lily did not care to give the real reason to Snape. Snape would have never accepted it and he would have tried to exert himself to show Lily that the Marauders were not what she thought; in particular James was not what she thought. That's what he more or less says to her in the werewolf memory and I think both Lily and JKR wanted to avoid that. Lily because she would never be able to convince Snape about James and James about Snape and JKR because she would then need to write a sub story to that confrontation all inside the memory. She would also need to make either Snape, James or Lily different and I don't think she wanted to do that either.

Because Lily did not care to give the real reason to Snape. Snape would have never accepted it and he would have tried to exert himself to show Lily that the Marauders were not what she thought; in particular James was not what she thought.

I don't understand, could you clarify? I believe you are saying that Lily believed Snape would have never accepted the real reason - that she was in love with James - and he would have exerted himself to show her that the Marauders and James were not what she thought. But why wouldn't Lily believe that Snape would exert himself to show her that he was not headed for being a Death Eater, which is what she said she believed instead?

That's what he more or less says to her in the werewolf memory and I think both Lily and JKR wanted to avoid that. Lily because she would never be able to convince Snape about James and James about Snape and JKR because she would then need to write a sub story to that confrontation all inside the memory. She would also need to make either Snape, James or Lily different and I don't think she wanted to do that either.

I don't understand again. Why was it easy to convince Snape that he was headed for being a death eater if it wasn't true? (Assuming it would be more difficult to convince him about her feelings for James?)

I don't understand, could you clarify? If Lily believed Snape would have never accepted the real reason - that she was in love with James - and exerted himself to show her that the Marauders and James were not what she thought - why wouldn't Lily believe that Snape would exert himself to show her that he was not headed for being a Death Eater, which she said she believed?

Because she never gave him a chance to? Snape was not a DE at that time and she was merely assuming he would become one. She spoke her bit, accused him and walked away IMO.

I don't understand again. Why was it easy to convince Snape that he was headed for being a death eater if it wasn't true? (Assuming it would be more difficult to convince him about her feelings for James?)

I never said she convinced Snape. I said she broke off her friendship right there on the steps of Gryffindor Tower. She used those reasons which she knew forever about Snape and cited her friends in Gryffindor Tower, whom we never see again and broke off with him IMO.

Because she never gave him a chance to? Snape was not a DE at that time and she was merely assuming he would become one. She spoke her bit, accused him and walked away IMO.

So why wouldn't she just tell the truth and walk away, not give him a chance to respond to that?

I never said she convinced Snape. I said she broke off her friendship right there on the steps of Gryffindor Tower. She used those reasons which she knew forever about Snape and cited her friends in Gryffindor Tower, whom we never see again and broke off with him IMO.

I'm still confused. :lol:. If Lily detested Mulciber for using dark magic (DH TPT), why would she approve of Snape using it?

See, this is what is so interesting about hearing everyone else's interpretations...they are all so different.

For me, personally, I don't see why the two sides in this discussion have to be at odds with each other. I came away from TPT feeling as if Lily had ended her friendship with Snape for at least two reasons: (1) His bigoted beliefs/Dark Arts involvement AND (2) that she was attracted to James.

As to my analysis of the first issue....well first of all, I can't fault Lily for ditching him for what he said to her. If my "friend" was using racial slurs and promoting intolerance, we would have parted ways much sooner than Lily did. The fact that they did not part ways until after SWM (in their 5th year?) indicates, to me, that either Lily was a co-dependent wet noodle (which I do not believe) or she distinguished Snape from the other DE types in some way. What I noticed in SWM, is that not only does Lily not approach him after the O.W.L., but nobody does. Harry notes that he is obviously unpopular. Only Lily says anything when he's being humiliated. Snape has absolutely no friends. That says to me that, while his ideas and language may be unpleasant and awful, he is not fully ingrained into the DE culture: either through his own resistance or their lack of acceptance. I kind of picture him in some kind of limbo state; holding onto Lily's goodness, but sinking. Eventually he lashes out at her and she ends it. I think that was the right thing to do....it is not her responsibility to save him.

And for the second issue....that her growing attraction to James contributed to her separation from Snape....while I think the separation was inevitable, due to the above paragraph, I think Snape sensed her attraction and it made him crazy. In SWM and the werewolf conversation, her mind is clearly on James, sweet James. And, I gotta say, that going out with the enemy of your ex-best friend is kind of harsh. But she was young, mad at Snape and maybe wanted to get back at him a bit for hurting her. I'm sure she knew exactly how it would make Snape feel for her to date James (and I'm not saying she owed Snape anything or shouldn't have dated James).

All that is why I think Snape was not "destined" to become a DE until after Lily dumped him. That is not to make it Lily's fault, just that that is how he dealt with the loss of her friendship. Just my thoughts. This so belongs on the Snape/Lily thread. Sigh.

All that is why I think Snape was not "destined" to become a DE until after Lily dumped him. That is not to make it Lily's fault, just that that is how he dealt with the loss of her friendship. Just my thoughts. This so belongs on the Snape/Lily thread. Sigh.
I wrote a reply to this in the Snape and Lily thread. :)

http://cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=5363347#post5363347

So why wouldn't she just tell the truth and walk away, not give him a chance to respond to that?

Because she wanted to end the friendship that day IMO. She officially had a reason to finally break off with Snape, because he called her a mudblood. She knew he would never mean it to her; that like a bad swear word which we sometimes use in the presence of or to others who we never mean to or want to, Snape used a swear word in anger to her. That was why he came to apologise IMO.

She went on to tell him that they were friends no longer. Had Snape asked her or told her that she knew all this about him for years and that she had not cared then, and had he protested that of course he was not a DE, she might not have answers to those questions in my opinion.

I'm still confused. :lol:. If Lily detested Mulciber for using dark magic (DH TPT), why would she approve of Snape using it?

Because I don't believe Snape used dark magic in School. There is no canon for it at all IMO.

....it is not her responsibility to save him.


I agree. But as long as she was Snape's friend I do think she had a responsibility to him and to their friendship. I don't think she was completely honest with both her friend and their friendship once she started falling in love with James.

Her inability to deal with the situation, makes her look more less than the perfect girl and woman she is portrayed in HP; she was not IMO.

Lily, like all other characters had flaws; she also had a lot good things; she was brave, she died for her son, she fought for the Order and yet she also had weaknesses, had made mistakes IMO.

Did she ever regret those mistakes? We'll never know. :)

T_G_W, I'm going to make a reply to your post in the Snape and Lily thread. :)

Did she ever regret those mistakes? We'll never know. :)

I cannot concieve it ever being a mistake to break off with someone who has just called you by a sickeningly repelant racial epithat. Even if someone called me by a profanity, I would not associate with them again. (I do take this personally because the slide into the casual use of profanity in every day life is something I cannot stand. Rant over.)

Lily probably did make mistakes, that does not excuse Snape for his.

Snape created Dark curses at school, I think that could be construed as using Dark Magic.

I cannot concieve it ever being a mistake to break off with someone who has just called you by a sickeningly repelant racial epithat. Even if someone called me by a profanity, I would not associate with them again. (I do take this personally because the slide into the casual use of profanity in every day life is something I cannot stand. Rant over.)



No-one is an angel. Under distress, even the best of human beings lose their composure and temper and often say things, they don't mean. :)

I cannot concieve it ever being a mistake to break off with someone who has just called you by a sickeningly repelant racial epithat. Even if someone called me by a profanity, I would not associate with them again.

Lily did associate with Snape for more than 6 years. She was his best friend even. Snape was calling people racist names for years. It was not a habit he developed suddenly IMO.

Lily probably did make mistakes, that does not excuse Snape for his.

I am not excusing Snape for this; not for calling Lily and not for the all the other times he may have used the name Mudblood.

I am however looking at it from Lily's point of view and there is an inconsistency because she was okay with that swear word for a long time.

Snape created Dark curses at school, I think that could be construed as using Dark Magic.

He created new spells. They were of a wide variety, from the Muffliato to the sectumsempra. Did he use them on muggleborns or the Marauders who he considered enemies. I'm afraid there's no canon to say he used dark magic on others and that he cursed others using the dark arts.

No-one is an angel. Under distress, even the best of human beings lose their composure and temper and often say things, they don't mean. :)

:agree:

Lily did associate with Snape for more than 6 years. She was his best friend even. Snape was calling people racist names for years. It was not a habit he developed suddenly IMO.



I am not excusing Snape for this; not for calling Lily and not for the all the other times he may have used the name Mudblood.

I am however looking at it from Lily's point of view and there is an inconsistency because she was okay with that swear word for a long time.
I had some replies on this subject in the Snape and Lily thread which I'll copy and paste here (it's slightly edited since I felt I didn't word things as good the last time):


"Racism is very complicated, especially when it comes to close relationships. It may seem easy to say that Lily should have dumped him a long time ago, so her dumping him when he called HER mudblood was just very selfish. But that's not how it works.

Snape and Lily's friendship started when the two were the only magical kids in the neighborhood, at an age before either knew how complicated the world was going to be. Snape had also told her that it didn't matter if she was born to muggle parents or not. Already there is an attachment set even before they start school.
Now moving through the years, we have Snape being associated with people who clearly see a huge difference between wizard born kids and muggleborns, and hating muggles and muggleborns. But it still can't sink in right away, because this is STILL her best friend. It doesn't even matter whether or not Lily herself heard Snape call somebody else a mudblood. It would have been different for Lily had she heard a complete stranger or some other student say it. Because there isn't a close relationship between her and some other person that's already keeping them emotionally attached.

And I can give a real life example of this. There are interracial relationships/marriages where one spouse looks down on the ethnicity/culture of the other. Of course it's wrong, and we can easily say the spouse is being stupid for staying with such a racist. But there is still an intimate relationship involved which makes the person stay, or not put their foot down on it. They're looking down on something you're assoicated with, yet they still love you. And the person victim of that racism could be coming up with a whole lot of excuses to convince themselves why they should stay with that person. It may have to take something big for them to have the courage to break away already. Whatever that wakeup call may depends on the individual. And friendships can work this same exact way.

Now, is that what was really going on in Lily's head? This is just all my speculation or course. But based on my reading of their relationship and knowing how racism can work, it would not surprise me one bit as this happens in real life."

"Heck, racism doesn't even have to be the only example. With my best friend and I, it was more of a clash of our personalities and just growing apart. And even when the things she would say would upset me, when I didn't agree with her personal views and she had looked down on mine and the things I was into, I had held on to her for as long as I could because of our history together and that she was my best friend."

I was searching for a post by Kat_Suki which I did not find, unfortunately. :) She had written about racism; she is an African-American and she had written that she had friends both white and back and she had broken off friendships with them, both white and black for calling other people racist names than for calling her (I understood that not only whites call blacks names the opposite can happen too). Unfortunately I could not get the exact post by her.

I understand that Snape used a word that was very, very wrong. A racist word. My problem is not that Lily chose to break off with him, my problem is that IMO she gave reasons that look weak on page, when she condoned racist remarks by Snape against others and still took the moral high when he called her one.

I can understand her anger, her disappointment that Snape slipped up so badly, I can see her giving a warning to Snape, all, only because she had been at one time okay with racist remarks from Snape against others and could understand how it slipped from his mouth.

This was the first time Snape called her a name that was in poor taste, but I also think Lily was not a fool, for she knew, because she had seen, the circumstances under which Snape called her Mudblood.

He had been humiliated and angry and he lashed out at her in that anger. It was wrong, he should have never done it, but he did call her by a answer word he used to swear, so Lily IMO could have understood that Snape had spoken in anger, especially when he came to Gryffindor Tower prepared to spend the whole night outside in order to apologise to him.

posted by RavenStar
"Heck, racism doesn't even have to be the only example. With my best friend and I, it was more of a clash of our personalities and just growing apart. And even when the things she would say would upset me, when I didn't agree with her personal views and she had looked down on mine and the things I was into, I had held on to her for as long as I could because of our history together and that she was my best friend."

I don't think they grew apart gradually. Snape needed assurance from Lily in the werewolf memory about their friendship and Lily gives him the assurance, even though her words before are not very friendly at all IMO.

Lily, was growing apart, not so much because she disliked Snape or because she looked down upon his ideology, but because she fell for Snape's most hated enemy IMO.

Please note, that I am not saying that Lily would have continued to be friends with Snape had he joined Avery and Mulciber to play a prank or had he joined Voldmeort. But at the time frame we are discussing about, Snape had done nothing wrong. Or rather Snape had been the way he was all those years they'd been friends IMO.

I was searching for a post by Kat_Suki which I did not find, unfortunately. :) She had written about racism; she is an African-American and she had written that she had friends both white and back and she had broken off friendships with them, both white and black for calling other people racist names than for calling her (I understood that not only whites call blacks names the opposite can happen too). Unfortunately I could not get the exact post by her.
And I think she was right to break those friendships. To clarify, I do not condone one to stay in any kind of relationship where the their significant other insults their values. And in the cases I'm talking about, their heritage/ethnic background. My analysis was to explain my understanding as to why some people end up staying in such relationships, and why it is hard to break out of those. And the reasons for that can be many depending on the relationship. Again I don't condone it, and I wouldn't want my loved one to be friends or in a romantic relationship with such a person. But I understand why a person would.

I can understand her anger, her disappointment that Snape slipped up so badly, I can see her giving a warning to Snape, all, only because she had been at one time okay with racist remarks from Snape against others and could understand how it slipped from his mouth.
But that's the thing, I don't think she was ever really okay with it, but only giving her herself excuses as to why she should have let things slide. Hence why she says "I've made excuses for you for years." And as implied in my last post, this same same logic has also been used by those who have been in a similar situation as Lily.

This was the first time Snape called her a name that was in poor taste, but I also think Lily was not a fool, for she knew, because she had seen, the circumstances under which Snape called her Mudblood.

He had been humiliated and angry and he lashed out at her in that anger. It was wrong, he should have never done it, but he did call her by a answer word he used to swear, so Lily IMO could have understood that Snape had spoken in anger, especially when he came to Gryffindor Tower prepared to spend the whole night outside in order to apologise to him.
Well, another way to look at it is this. She, his best friend, was the one who came to his defense. And yet he takes his anger out on her? :no:

I don't think they grew apart gradually. Snape needed assurance from Lily in the werewolf memory about their friendship and Lily gives him the assurance, even though her words before are not very friendly at all IMO.

Lily, was growing apart, not so much because she disliked Snape or because she looked down upon his ideology, but because she fell for Snape's most hated enemy IMO.
As has been said by many before me, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. (HA! :p) My interpretation of the werewolf conversation was that it did indicate they were growing apart. That there was untrust brewing from Lily's POV by how she didn't like her best friend associating with people who used Dark Magic. Plus, this was about 5 years since they started at Hogwarts. A lot can happen in that time especially when all of them are growing up into a different stage in their life since they were 11. And as I've said in my many posts before, there's a lot we do not know in what happened in Snape and Lily's relationship that lead to 5th year. A select few memories that we get from Snape are not a lot to explain that.

And I admit, I could be biased because I'm a Severus and Lily shipper, but I find it hard to believe that Lily left her best friend to hook up with a boy 2 years later. I have heard the theory before of Lily leaving Severus for selfish reasons, of seeming to be okay with others being called Mudblood except her. Honestly, I feel that simplifies their relationship too much. If that truely was Lily's character, then I would think Snape dedicating his life for such a person was a waste, as someone like her wouldn't be worth fighting for.

Also, another way of looking at it, maybe Lily DID understand where Snape's hatred for muggles came from. She knew from an early age that his parents weren't getting along, and I'm pretty sure she knew how bad his father was. Maybe she did understand that Severus had a lot of healing to do, which was why she stuck by him for so long. As I said in my last post, I say this from personal experience of when my best friend and I grew apart. There was a lot she did that was very unhappy with, but it took me a long time to finally wakeup, look back at what are relationship had turned into before I had courage to let her go. I did my best, and I also think Lily did her best for those 5 years. There's only so much you can do for a person before you end up losing yourself, but it is still up to the other person whether or not they want to make themselves better. Unfortunately, Snape couldn't do that at that time and still stuck to the Darkarts and those who followed DE idealogy.

Edit
I forgot to add, I also think Lily tried her best in the 5 years of her friendship considering there was also a war brewing in the Wizard world, which is what I blame the most as to why Snape and Lily broke apart. War always ends up breaking things apart.

And I admit, I could be biased because I'm a Severus and Lily shipper, but I find it hard to believe that Lily left her best friend to hook up with a boy 2 years later. I have heard the theory before of Lily leaving Severus for selfish reasons, of seeming to be okay with others being called Mudblood except her. Honestly, I feel that simplifies their relationship too much. If that truely was Lily's character, then I would think Snape dedicating his life for such a person was a waste, as someone like her wouldn't be worth fighting for.


I would like to say that it was Snape's choice to dedicate his life to her. His choice is a reflection of him and his perception. I think it doesn't hold much to the reality of their friendship.

(If this post is too Snape&Lily rather than Lily, I can move it to the Snape&Lily thread).

I would like to say that it was Snape's choice to dedicate his life to her. His choice is a reflection of him and his perception. I think it doesn't hold much to the reality of their friendship.

(If this post is too Snape&Lily rather than Lily, I can move it to the Snape&Lily thread).


Moved to the Snape and Lily thread! :) (http://cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=117144&page=46)

1.)Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

I think Snape's influence on Lily helped her in a good way. He showed her a perspective that a lot of her fellow classmates didn't have, especially the non-Slytherins. She later is able to see what things look like from a Slytherin point of view and also a Gryffindor point of view. I think it is this that makes her so caring and open-minded.

2.)Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

Lily should have tried to bring their families together. No matter what Petunia acts like, she is still Lily's sister which forges a bond stronger than any argument. Petunia could have also tried to calm down a bit and understand her sister's point of view.

3.)Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

I think Lily would have had friends who were intelligent. They would have been in all different houses, and understanding.

4.)According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

Lily's attitude towards Snape shows that she is compassionate and caring. As I said in question 1, I think it is what makes her so open- minded and caring.

5.)Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

It was the last straw for her because:
A. They were drifting apart already
B. It was in public
C. She knew he didn't really mean it and only did it to keep up appearances.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?[/LIST]

I would like to answer the last part of the question.

Would she have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

I wonder. Snape never approached her in the 2 years she was in School. He never approached her when she left school or after her marriage or even to tell her that she was in danger. He preferred to do it through Dumbledore. At the same time he was very much in love with her as well.

Snape also turned to the Light when she was in danger, so he came back while she was alive. Had she lived, would Snape make a move to meet her or talk to her or be friends with her again, because he never tried in School or to tell her that he had left Voldemort. I think he would wait; because she broke off with him.

She broke off the friendship; I think she would need to make the first move. Would she have? If she had, would Snape accepted it?

Even if they became friends would that closeness come again?

I wonder.

Interesting thoughts, TGW. :cool:

I'll answer them in the Snape and Lily thread.

Welcome to the post-DH discussion of Lily Potter. Previous discussion without spoilers can be found here: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=96591)



So now we know why Lily's Green eyes were so important! A lot of things have fallen into place and questions have been answered.....which means plenty for discussion!


Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.
According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

1. I think it impacted her because he was one to know exactly what he was talking about when they first met. She sounded like a Hermione to me, so it makes sense that Lily would like the first person to teach her the ropes of the Wizarding World.

2. Sadly, I don't think anything could be done about it. Petunia is the kind of person to let her jealousy get in the way of relationships that matter, which is sad to me because by the end of it, she loses her little sister. Even if my sister and I had a strained relationship, I would be devastated if anything happened to her. But then again, I'm not Petunia.

3. I think Lily was actually quite popular. Something like Ginny Weasley (another thing Lily & Ginny have in common).

4. I think that Lily was one to be friends with people who weren't considered popular. As much as she was popular, she was nice and friends with quite a few people (though I can't say that stops some people from calling her 'Mudblood').

5. I think that was the last straw for Lily because she finally saw that why Snape supposedly hung out with the future Death Eaters. He was just like them and had the smae views. So basically she was disenchanted.


Now I have a question for you guys...

When it comes to what Sirius said about Lily and James and how James and Snape still hexed each other, do you think Lily completely knew about this, somewhat knew about this, or had no clue. And if she did know, could the fact that it was Snape, make her feel ok with he and James fighting? Do you think that her not caring that James would hex him, was a way of showing Snape that she really didn't care what happened to him?

By then, i doubt lily cared much about snape. Snape had revealed himself to be a boy manipulative, prejudiced and too selfish. In her eyes, Snape was now just another idiotic boy and meant little to her. Lily had moved on quickly; Severus had not.

I think that Lily's opinion of Snape would have changed if she and her family had lived, thanks to Snape's warning. Whether their relationship would be the same as it was before would depend on Snape's acceptance of James and Harry too, IMO. I really can't see Lily being close friends with someone who hates her family.

I'm of the opinion that Snape didn't want a friendship with Lily at all. I don't think that he could bear to be friends with Lily, knowing that it would never be anything more, and that she truly loved another. At least before, he had hope. It's more likely that he would distance himself from Lily as much as he could.

I think that Lily's opinion of Snape would have changed if she and her family had lived, thanks to Snape's warning.

I am beginning to think Lily's opinion of Snape was pretty much the same; I believe Lily broke off with Snape because of James and so it really did not, at the point she broke off with Snape, do anything with his DEship or anything, because I believe Snape was neither a DE at the time and nor was he practising the DA.

Though she might have been glad she broke off her friendship when Snape become a DE; I think she still thought of him as a friend she was sad to lose.

I'm of the opinion that Snape didn't want a friendship with Lily at all.

I agree with this, but not for the reasons you mentioned. I think Snape would not want a friendship with Lily had Lily lived. I feel that Snape moved away from from her from their fifth year. I think Snape was a very proud man, and for him to accept Lily's friendship would need Lily to come back to him; which seeing the Marauder equation and everything was almost impossible IMO. While he still loved her and then she died and so a large part of him stayed in love, had Lily lived, I think Snape would have moved on. Not to another woman, perhaps; maybe he would never love anyone as he loved Lily; but I am quite sure he would be comfortable not having her as friend or lover. I don't know why I feel so. It's something about the right thing for Snape to do IMO. :shrug: :)

I am beginning to think Lily's opinion of Snape was pretty much the same; I believe Lily broke off with Snape because of James and so it really did not, at the point she broke off with Snape, do anything with his DEship or anything, because I believe Snape was neither a DE at the time and

I doubt Snape was a Death Eater at the time, either, but Lily probably saw that he was going down that path and wasn't going to tolerate that. The fact that he wanted to be a Death Eater would have been enough for her, I think.

nor was he practising the DA.

He invented a spell that he described to be dark in HBP. And even so, he found the use of the Dark Arts on others amusing.

I think it was all too clear to Lily what path Severus was on, and he proved her right. When he left school he became a Death Eater along with his Slytherin friends. This is canon and from Snape's own mouth. In the circumstances one can only applaud Lily's good sense in distancing herself from her former friend.

I think it was all too clear to Lily what path Severus was on, and he proved her right. When he left school he became a Death Eater along with his Slytherin friends. This is canon and from Snape's own mouth. In the circumstances one can only applaud Lily's good sense in distancing herself from her former friend.

Yes, indeed. It shows that she was a strong-willed woman who was unwilling to comprise her moral compass for anyone, even her best friend.

Yes, indeed. It shows that she was a strong-willed woman who was unwilling to comprise her moral compass for anyone, even her best friend.
I'd like to add that we need to remember who the deatheaters were: an organization that promoted and wanted to enforce "blood purity". There's Nazi parallels written all of over it. Lily was muggleborn. I'm sure she knew that she and people like her and her family would be targeted by the likes of them. And then there was her best friend calling her "mudblood". I don't think it's too farfetched to say that Lily was the one feeling betrayed, or maybe even scared of her best friend. He was getting close to people who were a part of that group, and that he wanted to be a part of it himself. If anything, I think that event opened her eyes finally; that she shouldn't have had to compromise herself anymore.

I'd like to add that we need to remember who the deatheaters were: an organization that promoted and wanted to enforce "blood purity". There's Nazi parallels written all of over it. Lily was muggleborn. I'm sure she knew that she and people like her and her family would be targeted by the likes of them. And then there was her best friend calling her "mudblood". I don't think it's too farfetched to say that Lily was the one feeling betrayed, or maybe even scared of her best friend. He was getting close to people who were a part of that group, and that he wanted to be a part of it himself. If anything, I think that event opened her eyes finally; that she shouldn't have had to compromise herself anymore.

An excellent point. Lily couldn't continue being friends with Snape if he supported what was essentially the ethnic cleansing of Muggle-borns. She correctly assessed that the only reason he normally didn't fire off blood purity slurs at her like everyone else of her ancestry was because of their friendship. For a while, she chose to give Snape the benefit of the doubt, but after he called her "Mudblood" it was clear to her that they could simply never see eye to eye, and she could never support his efforts to become a Death Eater.

A discussion has arisen in the James and Lily thread as to whether Lily would have joined the Order of the Phoenix if she had not been married to James.

Why on earth would she want to?

Because her world was under threat. Voldemort was targeting people like her.

And, personally, I see Lily as the same sort of person that her son was.

I see Harry as taking very strongly after his mother ... and Dumbledore confirms it for me. :tu: 'His deeper nature is more like his mother's.'

Harry wanted to join the Order because he wanted to fight against Voldemort.

My interpretation of Lily is that she is a strong young woman who cares about justice and that she would have wanted to join the Order because she wanted to fight evil and stand up for Muggleborns like herself.

And that is quite a feminist interpretation of Lily, IMO. :cool:

She's a bit like Tonks, isn't she? Do we think that Tonks only wanted to join the Order because Remus was in it? I don't.

My interpretation of Lily is that she is a strong young woman who cares about justice and that she would have wanted to join the Order because she wanted to fight evil and stand up for Muggleborns like herself.That is my interpretation as well, and I think that interpretation is strengthened by her willingness to sacrifice herself for her son. I believe she wanted to make the world a better place for her son, and was willing to lay down her life to do that.

That is my interpretation as well, and I think that interpretation is strengthened by her willingness to sacrifice herself for her son. I believe she wanted to make the world a better place for her son, and was willing to lay down her life to do that.

I hadn't actually brought Lily's sacrifice into my argument because I see her sacrifice for Harry as such a deeply primal, instinctual thing: surely any mother who loved her child would do that for them. (I know I would.) Even the most timid woman in the world would do that, regardless of what her politics were.

But I do see Lily as a strong young woman who was Order material, definitely. :tu:

Why on earth would she want to?

Just because she was brave and muggleborn, does not mean she wanted to join the Order and fight Voldemort. While your interpretation may very well be correct, mine could be too, in the absence of other information in the Books IMO.

A discussion has arisen in the James and Lily thread as to whether Lily would have joined the Order of the Phoenix if she had not been married to James.



Because her world was under threat. Voldemort was targeting people like her.

And, personally, I see Lily as the same sort of person that her son was.

I see Harry as taking very strongly after his mother ... and Dumbledore confirms it for me. :tu: 'His deeper nature is more like his mother's.'

Harry wanted to join the Order because he wanted to fight against Voldemort.

My interpretation of Lily is that she is a strong young woman who cares about justice and that she would have wanted to join the Order because she wanted to fight evil and stand up for Muggleborns like herself.

And that is quite a feminist interpretation of Lily, IMO. :cool:

She's a bit like Tonks, isn't she? Do we think that Tonks only wanted to join the Order because Remus was in it? I don't.

Note: The top quote by The_Green_Woods can be found in the James and Lily thread. Please refer to that thread if further contextual information regarding this discussion is needed.

Anyway, I'm not saying that my interpretation is the absolute truth, Green Woods. More that I feel that the interpretation I provided meshes more with the character of Lily that we see in the novels. Even if we only see brief flashes of her life, her character, as well as those of the Marauders, are given enough detail for us to make educated inferences as to what her short, albeit eventful life was like.

The fact that she had a very strong sense of justice, was a Muggle-born, and a very brave, fierce woman all point to her joining the Order on her own free will. She would never have been coerced into anything, in my opinion, and I don't think James was the type to cajole her into it. Service to the Order meant they were likely to die in the course of service. She and James were said to be extremely loyal to Dumbledore, and according to Hagrid in PS, were among those Voldemort didn't even bother to try to bring to the Dark Side. That shows that they, both James and Lily, were tremendously devoted to the Order's cause. And that kind of steadfast devotion comes not from coercion, but from one's free will.

I'd imagine whether she was with James or not, the moment she heard about the Order, she'd want to join, mirroring how Harry reacted. Characterizing her as being forced into the Order by James makes her seem a bit weak-willed, and it makes him seem more sinister, which are outright deviations from what we know of them as adults from the prose and supplementary interviews.

My interpretation of Lily is that she is a strong young woman who cares about justice and that she would have wanted to join the Order because she wanted to fight evil and stand up for Muggleborns like herself.

And that is quite a feminist interpretation of Lily, IMO. :cool:

Agreed. :agree: I would also add that Lily had a strong aversion to what Voldemort stood for; she broke off her friendship because she realized what path Snape was going on. I think that's an indicator that she was opposed to Voldemort from when she was younger, something that eventually led her to actively fight against him.

To me, it doesn't seem in character for Lily to join the Order only because of her husband, as if she wouldn't have joined otherwise. :shrug: Given her personality, it seems pretty clear she would have joined the Order even if she was not with James.


ETA: I saw in the James and Lily thread there was a discussion on how Lily isn't shown to have any flaws. But I think there is at least one instance where she did not behave the best: in SWM where she nearly smiled at what James was doing. :whistle:

Because her world was under threat. Voldemort was targeting people like her.

And, personally, I see Lily as the same sort of person that her son was.

I see Harry as taking very strongly after his mother ... and Dumbledore confirms it for me. :tu: 'His deeper nature is more like his mother's.'

Harry wanted to join the Order because he wanted to fight against Voldemort.

My interpretation of Lily is that she is a strong young woman who cares about justice and that she would have wanted to join the Order because she wanted to fight evil and stand up for Muggleborns like herself.

And that is quite a feminist interpretation of Lily, IMO. :cool:



I absolutely agree.:tu:
Lily would never just sit back and watch while both of her worlds were under attack. We saw how worried she was that being Muggleborn would "make a difference"She would never let other humans , muggleborns or wizards be terrorised by him without doing anything. She hated Voldemort before she went out with James , as we saw when she broke off her friendship with Snape.
Snape was becoming everything she hated. He started calling people Mudbloods and wanted to become a Death Eater.She just couldnt stand all that

I hadn't actually brought Lily's sacrifice into my argument because I see her sacrifice for Harry as such a deeply primal, instinctual thing: surely any mother who loved her child would do that for them. (I know I would.) Even the most timid woman in the world would do that, regardless of what her politics were.

But I do see Lily as a strong young woman who was Order material, definitely.

So you don't think that Lily would lay down her life for someone else's child? Not even Neville, whom was under the same threat as Harry?

ETA: I saw in the James and Lily thread there was a discussion on how Lily isn't shown to have any flaws. But I think there is at least one instance where she did not behave the best: in SWM where she nearly smiled at what James was doing. :whistle:

Not our Lily's finest moment, that. :shrug:

There are times when I feel that JKR 'Ginnifies' Lily. :lol: :p But I can forgive her for that. :D (My apologies to Ginny fans! :blush: )

I don't feel that Lily is painted to be too good to be true, or overly sanctimonious. Not at all. At 15, she is rather judgemental, maybe, but that's hardly the worst thing in the world, and it doesn't make me dislike her.

So you don't think that Lily would lay down her life for someone else's child? Not even Neville, whom was under the same threat as Harry?

This is an extremely difficult thing to answer, because we don't see Lily in that situation. It also touches on a raw nerve: we would no doubt die for our own children, but laying down our lives for someone else's ... ?

Nonetheless, throughout history there have been examples of people acting in a brave and sacrificial way to save others, and I do see Lily as that sort of person. I am positive that she would act in a sacrificial way in order to protect other people's children from Voldemort's murderous threats. Let's say Voldemort confronted her and for some obscure reason it's baby Neville she has to protect. Well, I do think Lily would fight her hardest to save that baby boy.

Nonetheless, throughout history there have been examples of people acting in a brave and sacrificial way to save others, and I do see Lily as that sort of person. I am positive that she would act in a sacrificial way in order to protect other people's children from Voldemort's murderous threats. Let's say Voldemort confronted her and for some obscure reason it's baby Neville she has to protect. Well, I do think Lily would fight her hardest to save that baby boy.
I think the fact that she was fighting in the war with the Order is enough evidence of how brave and giving she was. Even when we are against war, do we not have respect for our soldiers for all they've done? Everyone who fought and died in the war was already sacrificing something for what was right (e.g. their safety, a normal life) Not everyone who was against the Deatheaters had the courage to stands up against them. And it's not exactly a bad thing or something to shame a person about because it does take huge amounts of courage and dedication to do such a thing.

So you don't think that Lily would lay down her life for someone else's child? Not even Neville, whom was under the same threat as Harry?

I don't think Lily would lay down her life for someone else's kid. Lily and James were already out of the war and were in hiding before they knew about the traitor.

They joined to protect their world; but naturally their loved ones came first. Lily probably stopped fighting when she became pregnant and James, I suppose joined her not long after. He stayed at home too; he did not go out to fight for the Order, when Lily was at home. They were together in hiding.

Unless of course, she was fighting and if there was this baby in danger. She would then try to save it I presume. Deliberately lay down her life for it; I don't know and I think that would be a tough choice to make, especially if she wanted to go back to Baby Harry that night.

I don't think Lily would lay down her life for someone else's kid. Lily and James were already out of the war and were in hiding before they knew about the traitor.

They joined to protect their world; but naturally their loved ones came first. Lily probably stopped fighting when she became pregnant and James, I suppose joined her not long after. He stayed at home too; he did not go out to fight for the Order, when Lily was at home. They were together in hiding.

Unless of course, she was fighting and if there was this baby in danger. She would then try to save it I presume. Deliberately lay down her life for it; I don't know and I think that would be a tough choice to make, especially if she wanted to go back to Baby Harry that night.

But would they be effective for the Order if Voldemort was hounding them? More importantly, they were only under the presumably-airtight protection of the Fidelius Charm for a week before Peter broke his oath. If James was out on a mission and Lily was home with Harry, do you think he'd be able to concentrate on the task hand at hand, knowing that he could come home to see the Dark Mark fired over his house? The same would go for Lily, and especially since Harry was an infant, barely a year old, he'd need to have both of them around.

I don't think James or Lily would be afraid to lay down their lives for the cause, even if it meant Harry would be deprived of a parent, or in the real case, both. Remus, in his apparition to Harry, encapsulated this idea in that they're trying to build a better. Again, remember, these were people brave enough to face Voldemort four times in total, escaping three times. If a family within the Order was threatened, and they were present, they'd do everything they could do to help them. Jumping in front of a Killing Curse was a more primal, familial instinct, based on familial bonds. A father and mother would jump in front of danger to protect their child. But that doesn't mean James and Lily wouldn't help other families in danger if they could. James, in particular, I picture being like Sirius, in that they were brave, energetic men who hated hiding, only doing so out of absolute necessity, but wanting to help, to protect, those they cared about.

But would they be effective for the Order if Voldemort was hounding them?

Voldemort was hounding every Order member, because the Order was created to actively fight Voldemort. Every Order member was known to Voldemort because of Peter and all of them were in danger. I think the Potters went into hiding when Lily became pregnant and James probably joined her then or a little while later.

If James was out on a mission and Lily was home with Harry, do you think he'd be able to concentrate on the task hand at hand, knowing that he could come home to see the Dark Mark fired over his house?

I am afraid I don't understand your point; every Order member was fighting like that. Molly lost her brothers in the war. The three times James and Lily defied Voldemort one or both could have been killed. I think they knew what fighting with Voldemort was when they joined the Order.

Jumping in front of a Killing Curse was a more primal, familial instinct, based on familial bonds. A father and mother would jump in front of danger to protect their child.

Yes; but would they do it for other kids? That was flimseycauldron's question, and I feel they would not.

Would Lily die for Neville? No. And I don't think Alice Longbottom would die for Harry either.

People die for their loved ones; Aurors fight and die in the fight, because they are the WW's Military. Other people sacrifice and die for their loved ones; when it comes to protecting their children, nothing is too little; but while they may make a great effort to save other kids while fighting, would they sacrifice/lay their lives for the child, like Lily did for Harry, I don't think so.

Lily did not fight; she simply did not want to live to see her baby die. That was how simple it was to her. Snape's request to Voldemort and Voldemort's agreement to give Lily a choice changed her death into the sacrifice that James' death was unable to IMO.

But that doesn't mean James and Lily wouldn't help other families in danger if they could.

I don't think that was the question. What was asked was, whether Lily would die like she did for Neville or Ron or Hermione? I think she would not.

IMO whether someone will die for some other person's kid is a gray area and can't really be predicted. People sometimes do things that they wouldn't think that they'd do. I'm pretty sure there have been cases where people have sacrificed themselves for someone else's kid (in the real world).

When you are in a pressure situation, you might not think all that much about the consequences. IMO It would be an instinctive reaction.

Would Lily sacrifice herself to protect someone say Neville ? I don't know. I don't think it can be predicted. It depends on the situation. If Voldemort came and offered her a chance to live, reminded her that Harry was there, promised her that he wouldn't touch her kid etc etc, she might not. But I can totally see her jumping in front of a killing curse to save Neville.

IMO whether someone will die for some other person's kid is a gray area and can't really be predicted. People sometimes do things that they wouldn't think that they'd do. I'm pretty sure there have been cases where people have sacrificed themselves for someone else's kid (in the real world).

I agree. Mostly they would not; but yes like you said, it is a grey area and cannot be predicted accurately for everyone. :agree:

When you are in a pressure situation, you might not think all that much about the consequences. It could very easily be instinctive too.

Would Lily sacrifice herself to protect someone say Neville ? I don't know. I don't think it can be predicted. It depends on the situation. If Voldemort came and offered her a chance to live, reminded her that Harry was there, promised her that he wouldn't touch her kid etc etc, she might not. But I can totally see her jumping in front of a killing curse to save Neville.

I agree with this too. IN a fight, where she was duelling DEs and assuming there was baby Neville; seeing a killing curse she could conjure something, summon Neville to her or step in front of the curse instinctively.

What I understood from flimseycauldron's question was would Lily stand in front of Neville like she did in front of Harry? With Harry it was a deliberate choice to die first, because she could not escape, and I feel Lily did not want to see her baby die in front of her.

Closer to home everything is magnified. For Lily too, Harry is different from others; in the line of duty while fighting DEs and Voldemort, Lily would be and was prepared to die and if she could do it saving Neville or indeed any other, I think she would do it; but to come between another baby and Voldemort deliberately so that she may not watch that baby die, well that would depend on the circumstances at the time and it would be more difficult as I wrote earlier, if she had Baby Harry waiting at home for her.

Lily would definitely take a curse to protect Neville - even if it meant death, imo. Lily and all of the Order members were not just risking their lives, but dying left and right for numerous nameless, faceless people. If they were willing to continue to fight, knowing they were being picked off and their number could come up any time, why would any member, including Lily, become skittish when it came to directly trying to stop a DE or Voldy from killing Neville? I don't think Lily and any Order member would have to even think twice about giving their life to save a child who was directly threatend, when they were willing to do so when no one was being threatened at all.

Voldemort was hounding every Order member, because the Order was created to actively fight Voldemort. Every Order member was known to Voldemort because of Peter and all of them were in danger. I think the Potters went into hiding when Lily became pregnant and James probably joined her then or a little while later.



I am afraid I don't understand your point; every Order member was fighting like that. Molly lost her brothers in the war. The three times James and Lily defied Voldemort one or both could have been killed. I think they knew what fighting with Voldemort was when they joined the Order.



Yes; but would they do it for other kids? That was flimseycauldron's question, and I feel they would not.

Would Lily die for Neville? No. And I don't think Alice Longbottom would die for Harry either.

People die for their loved ones; Aurors fight and die in the fight, because they are the WW's Military. Other people sacrifice and die for their loved ones; when it comes to protecting their children, nothing is too little; but while they may make a great effort to save other kids while fighting, would they sacrifice/lay their lives for the child, like Lily did for Harry, I don't think so.

Lily did not fight; she simply did not want to live to see her baby die. That was how simple it was to her. Snape's request to Voldemort and Voldemort's agreement to give Lily a choice changed her death into the sacrifice that James' death was unable to IMO.



I don't think that was the question. What was asked was, whether Lily would die like she did for Neville or Ron or Hermione? I think she would not.

I think this is a very cynical way to look at Lily. You are saying that in your opinion Lily would stand back and let a child die. Why would you even comtemplate this? Lily is not Snape who was quite willing to stand back and let a child and the child's father die as long as he could get the mother. And Snape, IMHO came to realise how terrible that position was, how morally repugnant it was to even think it.
Lily, and James were soldiers fighting a war, if any child was in their presence I feel that they would do anything to save that child, up to and including stepping in front of it and taking the fire.
People all over the world in real life put themselves in harm's way for other peoples children and sometimes they die for it and I know that this is just a work of fiction but is written I feel to reflect human emotions and reactions.

Sometimes a work of fiction is more truthfull in refection of how human beings react to situations than even a police report, so IMO Lily would never have been the type to stop and think that she had better step back and save her own life at all costs. That is DE thinking, demonstrated in the book by Snape and like I said was one of the things that he was ashamed and regretfull of afterwards.

Lily, and James were soldiers fighting a war, if any child was in their presence I feel that they would do anything to save that child, up to and including stepping in front of it and taking the fire.

People all over the world in real life put themselves in harm's way for other peoples children and sometimes they die for it and I know that this is just a work of fiction but is written I feel to reflect human emotions and reactions.

I totally agree. :tu:

And I heard a story on Radio 4 yesterday, about a woman in war-torn Somalia who had deliberately chosen to care for an orphaned baby who had nobody else to care for it. This meant leaving her own six children behind with relatives. She was worried sick about them :sigh: but that didn't stop her wanting to save somebody else's abandoned child. She was crying as the BBC reporter spoke to her, saying how worried she was about her kids. And he asked her, "Why save the life of one child when you could have saved the lives of your own six children?" Her reply was that she loved her children but she couldn't leave that other child to die.

I was really moved by her courage and her selflessness. She did the right thing, IMO.

And I know Lily is only fictional, but I do see her as that kind of person too. If baby Neville had been in the room, and not Harry, I think Lily would have done everything in her power to save him. I am not a very brave person, physically at any rate, but there is no way I would let a psychopath murder an innocent baby and I would do anything in my admittedly feeble powers to stop him from doing so.

I totally agree. :tu:

And I heard a story on Radio 4 yesterday, about a woman in war-torn Somalia who had deliberately chosen to care for an orphaned baby who had nobody else to care for it. This meant leaving her own six children behind with relatives. She was worried sick about them :sigh: but that didn't stop her wanting to save somebody else's abandoned child. She was crying as the BBC reporter spoke to her, saying how worried she was about her kids. And he asked her, "Why save the life of one child when you could have saved the lives of your own six children?" Her reply was that she loved her children but she couldn't leave that other child to die.

I was really moved by her courage and her selflessness. She did the right thing, IMO.

And I know Lily is only fictional, but I do see her as that kind of person too. If baby Neville had been in the room, and not Harry, I think Lily would have done everything in her power to save him. I am not a very brave person, physically at any rate, but there is no way I would let a psychopath murder an innocent baby and I would do anything in my admittedly feeble powers to stop him from doing so.
Not sure if I've mentioned this already, but I think Lily is one example of how a great mother's are and how that should be honored and respected. Her sacrifice influences the story greatly and helps pave the way for Harry on his journey by keeping him safe. I think honoring mothers was one of the messages of the books (and it makes sense since JKR herself was writing the story around the time she lost her mother).

And I know Lily is only fictional, but I do see her as that kind of person too. If baby Neville had been in the room, and not Harry, I think Lily would have done everything in her power to save him. I am not a very brave person, physically at any rate, but there is no way I would let a psychopath murder an innocent baby and I would do anything in my admittedly feeble powers to stop him from doing so.

I don't think anyone can stand by and watch someone else being murdered, especially if it's a child, or a baby. Most people would throw their life on the line, or at least get help.

This is in no way related to the plot, but what kind of red do you think Lily's hair colour is? I don't think it's ginger, or auburn, but more like dark red.

Not sure if I've mentioned this already, but I think Lily is one example of how a great mother's are and how that should be honored and respected. Her sacrifice influences the story greatly and helps pave the way for Harry on his journey by keeping him safe. I think honoring mothers was one of the messages of the books (and it makes sense since JKR herself was writing the story around the time she lost her mother).

Yes, Lily's sacrifice is a proactive thing that sets up the whole reason why Harry was able to defeat Voldemort in the end. In Rowling's universe, love really does conquer all :D and that's a great message. :)

I don't think anyone can stand by and watch someone else being murdered, especially if it's a child, or a baby. Most people would throw their life on the line, or at least get help.

Exactly. One wouldn't even have to be a particularly noble sort of person to find the murder of a baby absolutely atrocious, and I see Lily as a very compassionate person who would try to save a child who was not her own. I know I would.

This is in no way related to the plot, but what kind of red do you think Lily's hair colour is? I don't think it's ginger, or auburn, but more like dark red.

The text says in several places -- e.g. OotP and DH -- that Lily had dark red hair. :)

I'm not sure that Lily would have sacrificed herself for Neville or someone. I think she would've fought hard to protect them, and maybe died in the attempt, but not willingly laid down her life and said "Take me instead." I know that I'd take a bullet for any one of my friends willingly, but if it was some random guy off the street, I don't know if I'd be able to make that sacrifice.

The text says in several places -- e.g. OotP and DH -- that Lily had dark red hair. :)

That sounds like Bonny Wright's in the movies.

I'm not sure that Lily would have sacrificed herself for Neville or someone. I think she would've fought hard to protect them, and maybe died in the attempt, but not willingly laid down her life and said "Take me instead." I know that I'd take a bullet for any one of my friends willingly, but if it was some random guy off the street, I don't know if I'd be able to make that sacrifice.

That's a fair point. :)

And it's not belittling Lily to say that any mother who loved her child would be prepared to do what she did, i.e. offer her life in exchange for Harry's.

That sounds like Bonny Wright's in the movies.

Yes, I guess you could say that Bonnie has dark red or auburn hair in the films, it's a subtle red, not a flaming orange. :) I like to think of Lily having dark cherry-red hair though -- quite a rare colour, but beautiful when you see it!

I'm not sure that Lily would have sacrificed herself for Neville or someone. I think she would've fought hard to protect them, and maybe died in the attempt, but not willingly laid down her life and said "Take me instead." I know that I'd take a bullet for any one of my friends willingly, but if it was some random guy off the street, I don't know if I'd be able to make that sacrifice.

:agree: :agree: You said it so much better than I; thank you.

It does not take anything away from her either, because she would not lay her life down for Neville or indeed anyone else, in the same manner she did for Harry. It's just it's different when it is one of our own. Sirius is another example to this. He came out of hiding when he heard Harry was in the Dept. of Mysteries; he would have obeyed Dumbledore and stayed in hiding had it been other kids, other than Harry IMO, content that the Order was doing something to save them.

Harry was his own and so he came under different rules. Just like for Lily, Harry was different, special IMO.

That sounds like Bonny Wright's in the movies.

Yes; and Harry married Ginny. :eeep:

Yes, I guess you could say that Bonnie has dark red or auburn hair in the films, it's a subtle red, not a flaming orange. :) I like to think of Lily having dark cherry-red hair though -- quite a rare colour, but beautiful when you see it!
I think I've seen natural dark cherry red hair (I mean hair that wasn't dyed) in real life, and it's pretty much how I imagined Lily. :rockon: It was a very rich color.

I can see why people make the connection of Lily and Ginny because of their red hair, but even the books say they're different shades. Aside from the mass difference between dark red and bright red, red hair is pretty diverse from person to person anyway. So I don't really see how the two would look alike at all.

That sounds like Bonny Wright's in the movies.
I always thought Bonnie's hair was pretty light really. Along with Rupert and the rest of the actors who play the Weasleys.

I always thought Bonnie's hair was pretty light really. Along with Rupert and the rest of the actors who play the Weasleys.

In checking several online photos of Bonnie, it appears to me that her hair color is all over the map so I'm going to withdraw my comment about Lily's hair color being similar! :lol:

I always thought "dark red" and "auburn" were synonymous. :huh: I took "dark red" to mean "chestnut red," which is dark red.

JKR hand-picked Geraldine Somerville to play Lily, probably because the author is a fan of the show "Cracker," which also starred Robbie Coltrane (who was also JKR's first pick for Hagrid). She has auburn hair, as far as I can tell.

I always thought "dark red" and "auburn" were synonymous. :huh: I took "dark red" to mean "chestnut red," which is dark red.

JKR hand-picked Geraldine Somerville to play Lily, probably because the author is a fan of the show "Cracker," which also starred Robbie Coltrane (who was also JKR's first pick for Hagrid). She has auburn hair, as far as I can tell.
Come to think of it, I thought Geraldine Somerville was pretty light. The hair that I've seen was a lot darker than that. Though I'm sure JKR's version of dark red is different from mine.

I'd be thrilled if this discussion included Lily's character. ;)

One last thing about hair color. I don't think Bonnie's hair is dark enough to be th shade of Lily's. My mom has really dark red hair and that's how i alway picture Lily's. The Weasley hair is rather light in my opinion.

My original point was that I don't see why Lily has to be anything like Ginny or associated with her just because of their hair, which is a claim I've seen often. Lily comes off as a strong willed woman, just like many other women in HP and Harry's peers. It doesn't mean every other red head should be associated with her or that Harry has a Oedipus complex just because he dates another strong willed woman, which is another claim I've heard.

That sounds like Bonny Wright's in the movies.
Yes; and Harry married Ginny.

Except Ginny's hair isn't dark red, it's supposed to be a bright, orange-y red. Just like Dan should have black hair and green eyes instead of brown hair and blue and Neville should have blonde hair instead of brown and so on and so forth.

My original point was that I don't see why Lily has to be anything like Ginny or associated with her just because of their hair, which is a claim I've seen often.

The "Oedipal" comments about Ginny are more based in fanon than canon. Lily seems much more like Hermione in personality - the talented Muggle-born who sticks up for others - than she does Ginny. (I know Ginny sticks up for others as well but from what we saw of Lily she just seemed much more Hermione-ish in how she went about it.)

I don't think Lily was like Hermione. Their backgrounds are not similar, with Lily supposed to be a popular girl with other friends; Hermione on the other hand was this shy, lonely girl with tons of intelligence. Her other good qualities (before she opens up to Harry and Ron when she became their friend) seem buried inside for fear of ridicule to which she seems subjected to by everyone.

Hermione IMO was a better friend and person. Of course we know next to nothing about Lily, while we have quite a bit on Hermione, so this may not be a fair comparison; but comparing what little we know, I feel Hermione stands out in one respect. She was a stronger person than Lily IMO.

The "Oedipal" comments about Ginny are more based in fanon than canon. Lily seems much more like Hermione in personality - the talented Muggle-born who sticks up for others - than she does Ginny. (I know Ginny sticks up for others as well but from what we saw of Lily she just seemed much more Hermione-ish in how she went about it.)
I can see your point. I think Hermione comes off as a bit more self-righteous than Lily. There were times in the book where Hermione was more concerned with being right than what everyone else felt. Though this may be due to because we see and know more of Hermione.


Hermione IMO was a better friend and person. Of course we know next to nothing about Lily, while we have quite a bit on Hermione, so this may not be a fair comparison; but comparing what little we know, I feel Hermione stands out in one respect. She was a stronger person than Lily IMO.
From what little we know of Lily, she does defend those she cares about. She defended Petunia when she was hurt from the tree branch. She stuck by Snape for almost 5 years even when he was turning to the DE's and dark magic up until she couldn't do it anymore. If anything, her close relationship and fall out with both Petunia and Snape showed that she was loyal to those she cared about, but also knew to respect herself. I think most of the strong willed women in HP do that.

I don't think Lily was like Hermione. Their backgrounds are not similar, with Lily supposed to be a popular girl with other friends; Hermione on the other hand was this shy, lonely girl with tons of intelligence.

Hermione was not shy, she was introverted perhaps, but not shy. She had no problem sharing her opinions even when unasked or unwanted. And Hermione not popular? Sure she spent most of her time around the Weasleys and Harry - just like we only saw Lily with Snape but Hermione was well-liked by nearly everyone in her year at Gryffindor by the end of the series (except for, perhaps, Parvati and Lavender), she brags about how easy it will be for her to convince Zacharias Smith or Cormac McLaggen to go to Slughorn's party with her, she went to the Yule Ball on the arm of a famous profession Quidditch player and Tri-Wizard Champion and she seemed on good terms with most of the DA including Luna and Ginny and Neville.

Hermione by the end of the books is not the awkward, funny-looking little girl we met in PS/SS.

And Lily was certainly intelligent enough to make it into the Slug's club.

Hermione IMO was a better friend and person. Of course we know next to nothing about Lily, while we have quite a bit on Hermione, so this may not be a fair comparison; but comparing what little we know, I feel Hermione stands out in one respect. She was a stronger person than Lily IMO.

Easier to do when her best friends were better people. Neither Harry nor Ron ever called her a Mudblood or hung out with those that wanted to get rid of Mudbloods and neither boys were intent on being Death Eaters. Considering what low esteem Hermione held such people as Draco Malfoy, I doubt she would have been friends with anyone who treated her or people like her so horribly.

Considering what low esteem Hermione held such people as Draco Malfoy, I doubt she would have been friends with anyone who treated her or people like her so horribly.

But my question is: What if Draco had apologized profusely for calling Hermione a Mudblood? What if he had sat outside Gryffindor Tower all night waiting to apologize, even though he knew Harry or Ron might come along and zap him?

The reason Draco is a better parallel to Snape than Krum is because Hermione saw Krum as brave (like a Gryffindor) after she watched him play professional Quidditch. And Krum never called Hermione a bad name.

Hermione was able to see Krum as a possible boyfriend beyond being in Durmstrang (one of Draco's possible school choices) or in being associated with Slytherin and an ex-Death Eater like Karkaroff. Ron called Krum "the enemy" but Hermione went with him to the Yule Ball anyway, and wrote to him after that. She didn't just dismiss him as evil because of his house or other bad Slytherins.

So again the big question for me is, what if Draco had apologized to Hermione as Snape apologized to Lily? What would she have done, based on the character we know in the books? I think she would be much more forgiving than Lily was, considering how Hermione dealt with Ron in the books even after he abandoned her and Harry during the horcrux hunt. JMO

Considering what low esteem Hermione held such people as Draco Malfoy, I doubt she would have been friends with anyone who treated her or people like her so horribly.
And Lily does the same. She doesn't tolerate her own sister calling her a freak (and we can see from her crying on the train that she feels bad that she and her sister may be drifting apart), and she doesn't tolerate her best friend hanging around with racists and calling her mudblood. From what we're shown, she's never let go of anyone unless it was for good reason.

she brags about how easy it will be for her to convince Zacharias Smith or Cormac McLaggen to go to Slughorn's party with her

Brags? Really? By saying she was unsure who to ask? That's bragging? :huh:

I don't think Lily was like Hermione. Their backgrounds are not similar, with Lily supposed to be a popular girl with other friends; Hermione on the other hand was this shy, lonely girl with tons of intelligence. Her other good qualities (before she opens up to Harry and Ron when she became their friend) seem buried inside for fear of ridicule to which she seems subjected to by everyone.

I don't really see Hermione as being shy. She sometimes lacks self-confidence (which she compensates for by acting extremely confident :D ) and is nervous about being a Muggleborn at times ... but lack of confidence is not quite the same thing as being shy.

But we're here to talk about Lily. :D

Hermione IMO was a better friend and person. Of course we know next to nothing about Lily, while we have quite a bit on Hermione, so this may not be a fair comparison; but comparing what little we know, I feel Hermione stands out in one respect. She was a stronger person than Lily IMO.

I don't agree that Hermione was stronger than Lily. :) (And I do see Hermione as very strong.) And I am allowing for the fact that, as you rightly say, Hermione is a very well-rounded character whereas Lily is a 'back story' character and not nearly as well fleshed out.

Rowling tends to portray her significant (and favourite) female characters as pretty strong (even if they play second fiddle to the male-centric perspective of the saga -- but that's another issue, for the 'Feminism in DH' thread). E.g. Luna is strong, in her own unique Luna-way. And so on and so forth.

I don't think Lily was a poorer friend to Severus than he was to her. Period. But that discussion belongs in the Lily and Snape thread, not here.

I see Lily as strong because as a Gryffindor she stayed best friends with a 'despised' Slytherin for years; she wasn't afraid to tell off the men in her life when she thought they were behaving badly :yuhup:; and finally, she defied Voldemort in the final seconds of her life, pleading with him for the life of her baby son ... which was pretty darned courageous, if you ask me.

So again the big question for me is, what if Draco had apologized to Hermione as Snape apologized to Lily? What would she have done, based on the character we know in the books? I think she would be much more forgiving than Lily was, considering how Hermione dealt with Ron in the books even after he abandoned her and Harry during the horcrux hunt. JMO

Fair question, which I will answer in the Snape and Lily thread. :cool:

I see Lily as strong because as a Gryffindor she stayed best friends with a 'despised' Slytherin for years;

And dispite the fact that she had other friends telling her she shouldn't which is very in line with Dumbledore's statement about Neville showing great courage tanding up to his friends in PS/SS - which makes me wonder if JKR prehapps intended that comparision? :hmm:

And dispite the fact that she had other friends telling her she shouldn't which is very in line with Dumbledore's statement about Neville showing great courage tanding up to his friends in PS/SS - which makes me wonder if JKR prehapps intended that comparision? :hmm:

Yes. Could be. :) I must say it hadn't occurred to me before, but I like it. :)

And dispite the fact that she had other friends telling her she shouldn't which is very in line with Dumbledore's statement about Neville showing great courage tanding up to his friends in PS/SS - which makes me wonder if JKR prehapps intended that comparision? :hmm:

I think the cases are different. The trio was wrong and Neville was in the right, whereas, Lily was in the wrong and her friends were correct, imo. This in terms of her going through the hardships of having a friend like Snape when he wasn't going to change. We don't know how long "for years" was, but I think that at first it would be righteous for Lily to try and help her friend. However, after a year or so, it just becomes detrimental for her, imo. So rather than stand up to them, she should have heeded their advice. It is possible that might have ended up being more helpful to Snape also.

1. Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

I believe it's important for all people to have someone they can relate to and who understands them, and probably doubly so if you can do something most people can't. Given how little understanding Petunia had for magic due to her jealousy, it must have been a godsend to have someone to discuss it with. Severus obviously knew more about it than she did from his mother and could share that information with Lily so she knew what was lying ahead.

2. Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

I doubt it. Had they been older, they might have been able to talk it through and get over it, but children usually have knee-jerk reactions to mostly anything, and for all intents and purposes they have limited tools to use in order to reason about things like jealousy. From Petunia's point of view, it must have felt desperately unfair that Lily was a magical child who got to go to such a, to her, exciting place, while she was left behind, and given that there was no one else to blame, she blamed Lily. Plus which, even as an adult, Petunia is unable to get over her jealousy, so I doubt there was much they could have done.

3. Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

It's hard to say, really, since we see so little of them. Only one is ever mentioned by name, and it seems that, as an adult, she associates more with James' friends than her own. I know people usually assume she had lots of friends and was very popular, and I don't doubt it, but we never actually see her in a cluster of friends as such. The only clue I can think of is her "my other friends" comment to Severus, which indicates that she a) probably has more than one good friend and b) mostly sticks to her own House.

4. According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

I think I differ a bit from most people in my views on this one... From what I've heard, people think she was strong of character to stand up to her friends and hang out with the "nerd", but I don't really see it that way at all. First of all, why tell you supposed "best friend" that all your other friends despise him? That can't be meant in a benevolent way, if you ask me. Second, she does not for one second express concern over the fact that her "best friend" almost gets killed, but instead harps on about how he should be grateful to James for not being killed - how about asking the guy how he was?? Instead, she goes on to attack his choice of friends (if that is at all what they were, rather than just housemates), as if he had any other option, smile at him being humiliated - and agreeing to go out with the guy doing it - right under his nose (as opposed to saving him - she had a wand, why not use it to hex James?). So based on this, I don't see her as a very good friend, actually.

5. Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

I'm not sure - that would assume she had developed more of a social intelligence and realise that people do lash out when they're in distress, without necessarily meaning to (actually, even Harry notices as much in TPT, showing that his social skills are marginally better). I also find it a bit hypocritical that she was apparently "fine" (as in, okay with continuing the friendship) with Severus calling other people "Mudblood", which can only mean that a) he didn't do it often enough to be objectionable to her or b) she didn't mind as long as it wasn't meant for her. She also most likely knows that his father is a Muggle, so it makes no sense that he should be truly racist. While it may be true that she despaired at Severus becoming more involved with future DEs and Dark Arts, I can't say I approve of the side she was gravitating towards, either, namely accepting what James & c.o. do without much protest, letting herself get blackmailed into a date and then seemingly only hanging out with her husband's friends (I mean, do we ever hear of Harry's godmother, for instance?)

Just my pov.

From what I've heard, people think she was strong of character to stand up to her friends and hang out with the "nerd", but I don't really see it that way at all. First of all, why tell you supposed "best friend" that all your other friends despise him? That can't be meant in a benevolent way, if you ask me.

I presume that Lily means that her other friends were suspicious of Sev's anti-Muggle tendencies.

Second, she does not for one second express concern over the fact that her "best friend" almost gets killed, but instead harps on about how he should be grateful to James for not being killed - how about asking the guy how he was??

Maybe because Sev was standing right in front of her, perfectly OK and with not a scratch on him? :blush: It's just a suggestion ... :whistle:

Instead, she goes on to attack his choice of friends (if that is at all what they were, rather than just housemates), as if he had any other option, smile at him being humiliated - and agreeing to go out with the guy doing it - right under his nose (as opposed to saving him - she had a wand, why not use it to hex James?). So based on this, I don't see her as a very good friend, actually.

She doesn't agree to go out with James in SWM. :huh: She tells him in no uncertain terms that she would no more date him than the Giant Squid. :yuhup:

While it may be true that she despaired at Severus becoming more involved with future DEs and Dark Arts, I can't say I approve of the side she was gravitating towards, either, namely accepting what James & c.o. do without much protest, letting herself get blackmailed into a date

Where in canon do we see Lily getting 'blackmailed into a date'? :huh: The canon is that she didn't go out with James until at least two years after SWM.

and then seemingly only hanging out with her husband's friends (I mean, do we ever hear of Harry's godmother, for instance?) Just my pov.

Actually, this to me is yet another example of how 'male-centric' the whole saga tends to be. I mean, we don't hear of Ginny's choice of names for her and Harry's kids either. :whistle: If we're going to argue that Lily became no more than an appendage of James, then I think the same holds true for Ginny with Harry. :whistle: And for me that points up the overall male bias of the narrative, rather than a problem with Lily's character per se. :cool:

I presume that Lily means that her other friends were suspicious of Sev's anti-Muggle tendencies.

I'm sure she does, too, but it's never stated in so many words.

Maybe because Sev was standing right in front of her, perfectly OK and with not a scratch on him? :blush: It's just a suggestion ... :whistle:

Just because he wasn't physically injured doesn't mean that the fact that somene tried to murder him made him feel good. ;)

She doesn't agree to go out with James in SWM. :huh: She tells him in no uncertain terms that she would no more date him than the Giant Squid. :yuhup:

True, I'm mixing things up. He actually threatens her instead. Much better. :lol:

Actually, this to me is yet another example of how 'male-centric' the whole saga tends to be. I mean, we don't hear of Ginny's choice of names for her and Harry's kids either. :whistle: If we're going to argue that Lily became no more than an appendage of James, then I think the same holds true for Ginny with Harry. :whistle: And for me that points up the overall male bias of the narrative, rather than a problem with Lily's character per se. :cool:

True, although I can only discuss her character from what I do see of her - I can of course speculate on the things we don't, but that wouldn't have much meaning to canon. ;)

True, I'm mixing things up. He actually threatens her instead. Much better. :lol:

Which is why she tells him to go and boil his head, in so many words. :whistle: :)

True, although I can only discuss her character from what I do see of her - I can of course speculate on the things we don't, but that wouldn't have much meaning to canon. ;)

Well, the thing is that Lily disappears from the narrative because she is part of the backstory. It's not necessary for us to know who her best female friend was, etc. (We are told who James's friends are because these guys form the backbone of the tragic backstory.)

We could certainly make a case that knowing more about Lily would have been better for her actual characterisation. :cool:

She stuck by Snape for almost 5 years even when he was turning to the DE's and dark magic up until she couldn't do it anymore.

I disagree. She did not stick with Snape; she need not stick by Snape for any reason IMO. Snape had no hold over her. The only time Snape called her a name which he should not have of course, she broke off her friendship. She stayed with Snape because she wanted to; because Snape offered something to her that she did not get from anyone else IMO.

If anything, her close relationship and fall out with both Petunia and Snape showed that she was loyal to those she cared about, but also knew to respect herself. I think most of the strong willed women in HP do that

I don't think Lily was close to Petunia at all. I think their magic drove a wedge between them IMO. Lily was close with Snape. I think she regretted breaking off with him; but as she told Snape, she had chosen her way (that was James Potter and Snape had no place in that circle) and Snape had in her opinion chosen his. His way IMO at that time was to be Lily's friend and maybe more, but that was something Lily did not agree with IMO.

Easier to do when her best friends were better people. Neither Harry nor Ron ever called her a Mudblood or hung out with those that wanted to get rid of Mudbloods and neither boys were intent on being Death Eaters.

No. Harry and Ron were never in such a humiliating circumstance in front of the whole School and in front of the girl they loved either IMO. Snape was not a DE at that time. He can't be responsible for his Slytherins, anymore than Lily can for her Gryffindors who sent people into tunnels where werewolves lived IMO.

Neither Harry or Ron called her a Mudblood that is true; but assuming they had, she would have forgiven them, when they themselves were being humiliated. Friendship was important to Hermione. She had been too long with a friend IMO.

But my question is: What if Draco had apologized profusely for calling Hermione a Mudblood? What if he had sat outside Gryffindor Tower all night waiting to apologize, even though he knew Harry or Ron might come along and zap him?

I think she would have forgiven him. :)

I don't think Lily was a poorer friend to Severus than he was to her. Period. But that discussion belongs in the Lily and Snape thread, not here.

I don't know about Lily being a poor friend or not; but in the same circumstances, I cannot help but feel that Hermione will react better than Lily in certain areas. Both were intelligent. But Hermione knew about loneliness, ridicule and being odd. So I think in certain situations she would have empathised more than Lily.

I say this because of how Lily reacted to the werewolf incident. If anything it was shallow and superficial and very disappointing. Replace Hermione and Harry or Ron and I can't see Hermione saying Harry should be grateful to Draco, without first hugging him and asking about him. Note this memory was the first time they discussed the werewolf incident and it took place sometime after that. And this was part of a conversation that had begun before the memory starts.

Lily is asking about a situation where Snape could have died sometime after they met and then it's only to say Snape was ungrateful. Lily's character and her position as a friend in this incident IMO leaves a lot to be desired for.

And I apologize for even mentioning Snape in this thread. Apparently she wasn't doing what a good woman should.

So anyway, is there anything in the text that show her relationship with Harry? Like what kind of mother she was? Or maybe her relationship with James?

Brags? Really? By saying she was unsure who to ask? That's bragging?

She had no concerns that Smith or McLaggen would turn her down and seemed quite confident in her ability to date either of them if she could just decide which and whether she wanted to bother.

No. Harry and Ron were never in such a humiliating circumstance in front of the whole School and in front of the girl they loved either IMO.

Harry had the entire school hating him before the First Task in GoF - people were wearing buttons to mock him and he was a joke in the Daily Prophet.

Better yet - Ron attacked Draco for calling Hermione a mudblood and wound up vomitting up slugs to the delight of the Slytherins there - Ron didn't blame Hermione for that.

Snape made a series of bad choices and those choices are his fault alone.

But my question is: What if Draco had apologized profusely for calling Hermione a Mudblood? What if he had sat outside Gryffindor Tower all night waiting to apologize, even though he knew Harry or Ron might come along and zap him?
I think she would have forgiven him.

No, she wouldn't. Not if she knew he were still planning on joining the Death Eaters like Snape was. Hermione wasn't some saint - see how she laughed at Umbridge at the end of OOTP and the concern she showed for Marietta.

If Draco showed such an unwillingness to change - using Mudblood in front of her before like Snape had with Lily ("it's what you call everyone of my birth"), humiliating her in front of a crowd and then not even understanding why what he's done was wrong but apologizing to appease then, yes, Hermione would have acted the same as Lily did because she has self-respect.

You make some good points there, birdi. :cool:

And I apologize for even mentioning Snape in this thread. Apparently she wasn't doing what a good woman should.

;)

So anyway, is there anything in the text that show her relationship with Harry? Like what kind of mother she was? Or maybe her relationship with James?

From that letter to Sirius, proudly describing baby Harry zooming around on his broom, she sounds like a really fun, really loving mother. :) Very warm and affectionate.

Her relationship with James ... :yuhup: ... Well, based on the tiny amount of canon that we have, I think it was a strong, equal, positive one. :) Rowling said somewhere (I don't keep a track of her interviews) that Lily would have been good for James and wouldn't have tolerated "any of his rubbish". :yuhup: Which is good to know. :D :)

From that letter to Sirius, proudly describing baby Harry zooming around on his broom, she sounds like a really fun, really loving mother. :) Very warm and affectionate.

Her relationship with James ... :yuhup: ... Well, based on the tiny amount of canon that we have, I think it was a strong, equal, positive one. :) Rowling said somewhere (I don't keep a track of her interviews) that Lily would have been good for James and wouldn't have tolerated "any of his rubbish". :yuhup: Which is good to know. :D :)
Given the lack of information we have, we can always go the other direction and say that Lily was a poor mother since she let her 1 year old baby zoom around the house on a broomstick and almost injuring the cat. Or the fact that James was restless while they were in hiding obviously showed that Lily wasn't a very good wife since she wasn't able to calm her husband down. Or the fact that because Sriius was godfather and formally secret keeper obviously shows that Lily had absolutely NO say in the choices made whatsoever.

But that's just my speculation of course. :yuhup:

Or, with the information about her, we could actually call her an uncaring mother for she did not seem to mind sending Harry to his death in the Forest; where he had a choice to move on too. Of course, I don't think so. I think she did the right thing by supporting Harry. But there is enough information to assume otherwise too. In my opinion.

Snape made a series of bad choices and those choices are his fault alone.

Yes. I agree.

No, she wouldn't. Not if she knew he were still planning on joining the Death Eaters like Snape was.

At that time Snape was not a DE. It was an accusation of Lily, for which there was no basis, except that Snape was hanging out with Avery and Mulciber. That alone cannot be a basis for conclusions, for Snape was a Slytherin and he could hardly antagonise his fellow Slytherins, seeing he was a half-blood, poor and socially awkward boy without any power. Being friends with Avery and Mulciber did not mean Snape would also become a DE. It's like saying a murderer's son can only be a serial killer. That's IMO not fair. Lily never accuses Snape of practising the Dark Arts or of playing pranks that are evil; whether it was the type of pranks that were played on Mary McDonald or the type of prank which meant sending students to face werewolves IMO. The only thing Snape was guilty of was hanging out with Avery and Mulciber and calling her a Mudblood. For the latter he was willing to sleep outside Gryffindor Tower until he could make up with her. He knew what he did was wrong and he was not there to justify his actions. Just to apologise for them IMO.

Lily said Snape could not wait to join Voldemort some 2 years into the future; not that he was a death eater at that time. Still she went on to accuse him as one. I can only say that was unfair, when there is nothing to support that statement in the Books. She surmises and breaks off on that premise IMO.

Having said that, I think Lily had the right to make or break friendships and relationships. If she was for any reason wanting to break with Snape she could. That was her choice. But that does not make her reasons valid or right ... at that time. While it is right she broke off a friendship she did not want; it is not right that she gave reasons that were her assumptions as fact. In my opinion of course, for friendships have been broken for far less than this. This makes me view Lily as not quite the saint or this compassionate figure who looked out for everyone. For her and hers certainly. But then most people do that anyway IMO.

If Hermione would have reacted like Lily in the same circumstances, I think she would be wrong too; but seeing how she feels there might be a reason for Snape killing Dumbledore, when everyone around her was cursing Snape and wanting him dead; I don't think she would react as Lily did. I am sure she would have forgiven the Mudblood comment because of the circumstances in which it was uttered.

Harry had the entire school hating him before the First Task in GoF - people were wearing buttons to mock him and he was a joke in the Daily Prophet.

It was also widely thought that he had cheated his way into the tournament, possibly to get attention. When Lily ask what Severus has done to deserve the treatment he gets, James does not say "he's a wannabe DE" or "he fancies the Dark Arts" or "he hangs out with bad people". He says that he deserves it because "he exists". That's a world of difference in my book.

Better yet - Ron attacked Draco for calling Hermione a mudblood and wound up vomitting up slugs to the delight of the Slytherins there - Ron didn't blame Hermione for that.

I'm not sure I follow you here. Did Hermione somehow add to his ridicule, or why should he blame her? Was she unconcerned about him?

If Draco showed such an unwillingness to change - using Mudblood in front of her before like Snape had with Lily ("it's what you call everyone of my birth"), humiliating her in front of a crowd and then not even understanding why what he's done was wrong but apologizing to appease then, yes, Hermione would have acted the same as Lily did because she has self-respect.

I'm lost again. If he doesn't know he's done something wrong, why apologize? And since he never gets a chance to deny or confirm anything Lily says, who's to say he wouldn't have been able to explain himself? I'm not saying he doesn't make the wrong choices, but I'd like to know what you'd think his options were. ;)

If Hermione would have reacted like Lily in the same circumstances, I think she would be wrong too;

There's nothing wrong with choosing to not be a victim. It's not Lily's job to sacrifice her time and energy to save someone who doesn't want to be saved. That was a choice Snape had to make and he had yet to make it.

And it absurd to tell someone they should accept whatever racist abuse flung their way.

I'm not sure I follow you here. Did Hermione somehow add to his ridicule, or why should he blame her? Was she unconcerned about him?

Ron and Snape were humiliated in front of a crowd. Snape reacted by lashing out at Lily, Ron did not.

If he doesn't know he's done something wrong, why apologize?

Snape was not a moron. He knew Mudblood was a slur and he knew Lily didn't like it since it was something he had said before in front of her ("it's what you call everyone of my birth").

And since he never gets a chance to deny or confirm anything Lily says, who's to say he wouldn't have been able to explain himself?

He did have the chance, he could have interrupted her and told her he wasn't going to join the Death Eaters but he didn't because it was true. He was prejudiced against Muggle-borns, he was hanging around future (or current) Death Eaters, he was using the Dark Arts, and when confronted about it he does not deny his intention to join Voldemort.

Occam's Razor states what is simplest must be true, the truth is Snape was going to join the Death Eaters and he knew it then. The only one who hadn't fully accepted that was Lily. When he called her Mudblood, she realized what she had been denying all along.

Ron and Snape were humiliated in front of a crowd. Snape reacted by lashing out at Lily, Ron did not.

But in those instances, Harry had put himself in that situation in the eyes of other people. Ron did, too, by using a spell he apparently couldn't master. What did Severus do to deserve what he got?

Snape was not a moron. He knew Mudblood was a slur and he knew Lily didn't like it since it was something he had said before in front of her ("it's what you call everyone of my birth").

...which is why he apologizes. Even Harry realises, in TPT, that Severus does it in "humiliation and fury", not out of a desire to hurt.

He did have the chance, he could have interrupted her and told her he wasn't going to join the Death Eaters but he didn't because it was true. He was prejudiced against Muggle-borns, he was hanging around future (or current) Death Eaters, he was using the Dark Arts, and when confronted about it he does not deny his intention to join Voldemort.

Actually, it doesn't seem to me that Lily lets him have a say at all. If he had been prejudiced against Muggle-borns, why would he be in love with Lily, of all people, and not some random, pure-blood Slytherin girl?

Occam's Razor states what is simplest must be true, the truth is Snape was going to join the Death Eaters and he knew it then. The only one who hadn't fully accepted that was Lily. When he called her Mudblood, she realized what she had been denying all along.

Well, OR is only one theory amongst many. I don't think it's up for anyone to claim that there is only one theory applicable to every individual. ;)

But in those instances, Harry had put himself in that situation in the eyes of other people. Ron did, too, by using a spell he apparently couldn't master. What did Severus do to deserve what he got?

It isn't the fact that Snape lashed out, it is the way he went about it and what he said. There is nothing that Snape could go through; nothing that could happen to him at the hands of anyone - nor all the trauma in the world- that would justify his comment to her. I believe that is what Lily was thinking.

In terms of Lily's charcter, she reacted based on her own ideals which I doubt included thinking less of herself for being born to Muggle parents. I think she was a self confident person who enjoyed a certain amount of self esteem and so it would come as a low blow to have such a demeaning slur directed toward her - especially from a friend. I think if Mulciber had said it, it would have been more expected, although no more acceptable to her. But the unexpected element I think would add to her overall humiliation. As a strong minded girl, I feel she would react strongly in her embarassment and reassess her complete situation because it was a circumstance she didn't likely wish to find herself in again.

...which is why he apologizes. Even Harry realises, in TPT, that Severus does it in "humiliation and fury", not out of a desire to hurt.

I think for a girl of Lily's character, this wouldn't matter at all. It would not matter if a comment of that type was made out of anger, hurt, humiliation, or any other reason we could think up. Her pride was completely crushed by the statement (in the momentary sense) and it was especially daunting coming from a friend. I think if she were a more timid or self depreciating person, she might crumble and forgive, feeling that she was somehow deserving of mistreatment by the world at large or some such. But that is not who she was. She was strong and her reaction I feel would demonstrate that. What came after the fact (an attempt at apology), wouldn't stop it from happening all over again if the fundamental reason it occurred didn't change. Hence, she spoke of that (you call everyone of my birth that) and the other factors that would see her privy to recieving the same treatment in the future, imo. I think a large part of her reaction was out of a need for self-preservation in terms of not feeling humiliated and shocked in the future.

Actually, it doesn't seem to me that Lily lets him have a say at all. If he had been prejudiced against Muggle-borns, why would he be in love with Lily, of all people, and not some random, pure-blood Slytherin girl?

Again, I don't think that was the point. It just comes down to her basic character and a need to protect herself from harm, emotional or otherwise - moreso than being overly benevolent and allowing him to talk his way out of it - or use silence as a method. I think she was at the point of do or die and a person of her character would stick to any resolutions that she made in that regard. That was my take on her response in light of her character.

If he had been prejudiced against Muggle-borns, why would he be in love with Lily, of all people, and not some random, pure-blood Slytherin girl?
You'd be surprised how many racist in real life are in love with people who's heritage/background they despise. (And how much wrong comes out of it.)

If he had been prejudiced against Muggle-borns, why would he be in love with Lily, of all people, and not some random, pure-blood Slytherin girl?

There is no "if", he was prejudiced against Muggle-borns. That's canon fact.

And bigots have depth too, just like other people. And just like other people, they're capable of cognitive dissonance. Lily was likely the "exception to the rule" when it came to Muggle-borns and one way he convinced himself that he wasn't being irrational in his hate.

There is no "if", he was prejudiced against Muggle-borns. That's canon fact.
Snape didn't have an easy time making friends and if the only group in school which accepted him and appreciated his cleverness and talent for the dark arts were Slytherin bigots then of course he would hang out with them. Hanging out with a group often means adopting their beliefs as your own. Snape was never in my opinion, the bigot that Lucius Malfoy and other purebloods were because as far as I recall he wasn't raised into that ideology. He probably knew that he didn't exactly fit with other purebloods either because he was a halfblood himself. So I think there are reasons to question his bigotry because chances are he was only pretending. Many young people like to adopt racist beliefs because they think they are cool but they don't understand exactly what a certain ideology entails nor do they really believe what they claim to believe. As for Lily, she threw in the towel way too soon in my opinion because knowing Snape's unfortunate childhood and knowing he was being bullied and having a hard time at school she could have at least tried to reason with him before breaking off the friendship. She should have at least considered the possibility that he wasn't really a bigot, IMO.

Snape didn't have an easy time making friends and if the only group in school which accepted him and appreciated his cleverness and talent for the dark arts were Slytherin bigots then of course he would hang out with them. Hanging out with a group often means adopting their beliefs as your own.While I agree with the latter, you also say it yourself: his "talent for the dark arts" was what drove him forwards this group in the first place and it was what eventually let Lily decide to end the friendship - after having stuck to it for a couple of years. She didn't do it the first week they arrived at Hogwarts, but rather stayed with him for years to come. Imo she got rather bullied by Snape than that she bullied him, so I don't think her character was very flawful there. I think she broke the friendship when she got the final impression that he wouldn't return from the dark arts. Imo childhood friendships got broken for way less than such a serious reason (probably we all did such calls in our unseen past and maybe are still somewhat ashamed about it), so I judge her decision rather as strength than as flaw. I think they came to a point where he had to make the call to stay away from the dark arts, but he didn't.

I can very much relate to Lily's behaviour, because I did similar calls myself in teenage times, when close friends from childhood detected their fascination for Neo-Nazi movements which have been rather trendy for some time in rural Germany. There is really hardly a way to stay friends when you keep talking to them over years, but they keep thinking some humans are worth more than others. It's what Snape did and what Lily kept explaining to him. I'm not without insight on why he didn't understand why it was so important for Lily, while he basically cared for her only, but that's for another thread. Lily imo showed clearly that she didn't make her call to stay away from an outsider student, but sadly ended a friendship she couldn't accept anymore due to the dangerous paths her friend went.

As for Lily, she threw in the towel way too soon in my opinion because knowing Snape's unfortunate childhood and knowing he was being bullied and having a hard time at school she could have at least tried to reason with him before breaking off the friendship. She should have at least considered the possibility that he wasn't really a bigot, IMO.

I understand what you say if we look at it from Snape's view. However, I think Lily was somewhat justified in breaking their friendship at that point. For, we have a memory of Lily objecting to the kind of people Snape was hanging around with. So she had advised him, and apparently he hadn't reacted to her advice in a positive way -i.e leaving those friends-. Then, he called her a 'mudblood' as well as other Muggle borns. IMO, she had every reason to believe that Snape really entertained those beliefs. I don't think she broke the friendship out of pride or anything like that. But more that they were living in dangerous times. A real war going on outside the safe castle. People didn't know if it was safe to trust their 'friends'. I don't think it would make sense, if such an intelligent, wise -and endangered- person like Lily, to go hanging around with someone who showed disdain toward Muggle borns. IMO.

Imo she got rather bullied by Snape than that she bullied him, so I don't think her character was very flawful there.

Err. Where on Earth do you find that in canon? :huh: The only instance I can think of is when he starts saying he "won't let her..." but backs down when he realises it upsets her. But she makes the same demand of him, and doesn't back down on it. Is that the instance you mean?

There is no "if", he was prejudiced against Muggle-borns. That's canon fact.

Actually, it's not. We are told from Lily that he calls people Mudbloods, yes. While that is bad, it's really not terribly surprising given the house he's in and the current ideology there. We never actually see him do anything to Muggle-borns, nor do we see him say anything about them apart from that one unfortunate comment, nor do we see him discriminating against them as a teacher later on (in fact, two of the people he finds it hardest to come to terms with are Harry and Neville, both "purebloods"). The fact that he uses the dominating jargon of his house doesn't mean there's anything behind it, especially not given that his other actions point to the opposite.

I understand what you say if we look at it from Snape's view. However, I think Lily was somewhat justified in breaking their friendship at that point. For, we have a memory of Lily objecting to the kind of people Snape was hanging around with. So she had advised him, and apparently he hadn't reacted to her advice in a positive way -i.e leaving those friends-.

But point is, they both object to each others' company, and if we stick to pure canon, Severus actually has the moral highground here. While we know that Mulciber and C.o. are future DEs, no one cansay that for sure back in 75-76. We only hear of them involved on one single incident, with Mary McDonald, and we don't even know what exactly happened or, for that matter, who instigated it. This while knowing that James and his friends hexed other students, bullied some and most certainly humiliated Severus for no apparent reason apart from "he exists".
Secondly, how does Lily propose he gets away from people he shares a dorm with - and what options does she give him? He really only has her as a friend if he can't even hang out with the people in his house. It's not a reasonable demand to make, imo.

Err. Where on Earth do you find that in canon? Actually I explained it further in my latest post. I don't think he bullied Lily per se, I just see more instances where he treated her with disrespect than where she did to him. But this discussion leads quite off-topic for this place. :)

Secondly, how does Lily propose he gets away from people he shares a dorm with - and what options does she give him?

Now it isn't really possible to get away from people in his dorm and common room, is it? However, I don't think this was what Lily'd been talking about. :shrug:. The way she was talking about it, it seemed to me that Snape had a close relationship with those people. Which motivated her to advise her friend and try to get him away from bad influence.

You make several interesting points in the rest of your post. But as Gerti said this isn't the right place for it. So I'll respond in Snape-Lily thread. :).

The way she was talking about it, it seemed to me that Snape had a close relationship with those people.

(I take it this part might be okay to go in here, so I'll give it a try.)

I never actually got that impression at all. She doesn't even call them his "friends", she calls them the "people he hangs out with", slightly paraphrased, of course. It doesn't sound so close to me. ;)

Snape didn't have an easy time making friends and if the only group in school which accepted him and appreciated his cleverness and talent for the dark arts were Slytherin bigots then of course he would hang out with them. Hanging out with a group often means adopting their beliefs as your own. Snape was never in my opinion, the bigot that Lucius Malfoy and other purebloods were because as far as I recall he wasn't raised into that ideology. He probably knew that he didn't exactly fit with other purebloods either because he was a halfblood himself. So I think there are reasons to question his bigotry because chances are he was only pretending.

While I think probably Severus was a bigot, and you think he probably wasn't, I think the actual important part (to this thread, anyway) is how Lily herself perceived the situation. When she brings up her concerns about the company he keeps and what they are up to, he replies that its a laugh, not that he has no choice hanging around with his dorm mates. I think to her it sounds like Severus is giving their actions his stamp of approval. When he is upset at her the first weapon he grabs from his arsenal is "filthy little Mudblood." I think from her perspective if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck. She doesn't seem to have reached this conclusion immediately, though, as I take from her comment that she has been pretending for years that she has been trying to overlook his growing duck-iness. I think realization was a watershed event for her. She states that she has chosen a path, one that will oppose the things that Voldemort stands for. She goes on after school to join the Order of the Phoenix and defies Voldemort three times. I can't divorce Lily's choice from the Wizarding War and Voldemort's rise to power, which seems to have begun the year she started school, and which led to her knowing about Death Eaters and fearing to even say Voldemort's name at the end of her 5th year at school.

We are told from Lily that he calls people Mudbloods, yes. While that is bad, it's really not terribly surprising given the house he's in and the current ideology there.

That's bigotry. Snape could have chosen not to join in, instead he chose to be a bigot.

(in fact, two of the people he finds it hardest to come to terms with are Harry and Neville, both "purebloods").

1.) Harry is a half-blood, not a pureblood.

2.) By Harry's time, Snape had turned away from his old beliefs.

Snape was never in my opinion, the bigot that Lucius Malfoy and other purebloods were because as far as I recall he wasn't raised into that ideology.

That would make it worse, in my opinion. Someone like Lucius had been indoctrinated his whole life whereas Snape wasn't.

s for Lily, she threw in the towel way too soon in my opinion because knowing Snape's unfortunate childhood and knowing he was being bullied and having a hard time at school she could have at least tried to reason with him before breaking off the friendship.

It was not Lily's job to save him when he didn't want to be saved. Snape was not entitled to her friendship.

Furthermore, Snape betrayed her first. When he had a Muggle-born friend and then decided to hang around future DE's who used the Dark Arts and who - let's fact it - had probably bought into the pureblood idealogy, when he started thinking about joining the DE's - that's when he betrayed her.

Frankly, I don't know why Lily stuck it out that long other than the fact that she was probably in denial about Snape's involvement and beliefs until the day he called her the same thing he calls everyone else of her birth.

It would not matter if a comment of that type was made out of anger, hurt, humiliation, or any other reason we could think up. Her pride was completely crushed by the statement (in the momentary sense) and it was especially daunting coming from a friend. I think if she were a more timid or self depreciating person, she might crumble and forgive, feeling that she was somehow deserving of mistreatment by the world at large or some such. But that is not who she was. She was strong and her reaction I feel would demonstrate that.

So forgiving is a weakness? Strong persons never forgive?

To me, forgiving doesn't mean we accept the offense as true. It means we can separate the person from the act, and while still considering the act as evil/bad/etc., we give the person another chance.

It means we can separate the person from the act, and while still considering the act as evil/bad/etc., we give the person another chance.

No, that's not forgiveness either. Forgiveness does not include giving the other person another chance. Forgiveness means simply forgiving the other person their transgressions, nothing more.

Again, Snape was not owed Lily's friendship, not when he was being such a poor friend to her.

That's bigotry. Snape could have chosen not to join in, instead he chose to be a bigot.

DEs don't tend to like people who don't join them. Remember Charity?

1.) Harry is a half-blood, not a pureblood.

How so? James = wizard, Lily = witch.

2.) By Harry's time, Snape had turned away from his old beliefs.

I don't personally believe he ever had them. But I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. ;)

How so? James = wizard, Lily = witch.

James = pure-blood, Lily = Muggle-born, therefore Harry = half-blood.

It's mentioned right there in the books. And in the movies. (Bellatrix calling him a "filthy half-blood".)

DEs don't tend to like people who don't join them. Remember Charity?

The DE's weren't in power then and there's nothing to suggest that Snape was the type they'd try to recruit. Furthermore, if that were the case, Snape could have told Lily that. It would be idiotic for him not to do so and again, Snape was not an idiot.

DEs don't tend to like people who don't join them. Remember Charity?
How so? James = wizard, Lily = witch.

A Half-blood is a person with known Muggle ancestry. Harry is always referred to in the books as a Half-blood. Dumbledore is also a Half-blood, with the same level of "blood purity" as Harry (his mother is a Muggle-born).

Snape and Riddle are more obviously Half-bloods, given that they both have an actual Muggle for a parent. But having a Muggle-born parent also makes the wizard a Half-blood.

Maybe we can just conclude that Lily's feelings weren't as important as Snape's then? :relax:

A Half-blood is a person with known Muggle ancestry. Harry is always referred to in the books as a Half-blood. Dumbledore is also a Half-blood, with the same level of "blood purity" as Harry (his mother is a Muggle-born).

Snape and Riddle are more obviously Half-bloods, given that they both have an actual Muggle for a parent. But having a Muggle-born parent also makes the wizard a Half-blood.

That was actually the point I was trying to make, although it came out a bit botched. ;) I was trying to compare him to people like Lily or Hermione, who has one or two Muggle parents - it's what Lily says, after all; "people of my birth". Which I took to mean half/half. In fact, it's likely that Severus himself in only something like 1/4 wizard, since Bella and Narcissa comment on being the "first of their kind" (i.e. purebloods) to ever set foot on Spinner's End, where Severus grew up with a mother who was a witch. :)

Snape is a half-blood, his mother was a pure-blood and his father a Muggle.

And since this thread has been incredibly snarky, ugly and off topic - remember, the topic is Lily - it now gets a break. Maybe you'll all try to act your age when we reopen.




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So let's try this again. Please stay on topic and treat your fellow posters with respect!

Except for there being absolutely no way Harry could actually KNOW Lily's patronus, unless Sirius or Remus had once told it to him - something that needed to be said in the book IF it was going to come up like this.
That would be the fault of the way the story is written then. But given what others (e.g. Snape, James, etc.) have felt about Lily and their relationship with her, I think it makes sense that her patronus would be the doe.

Personally, I think it makes MUCH more sense for Lily's patronus to be a Stag, indicating her love for James. However, IF it was a doe (which as I said we have no indication of except for a guess by Harry) then it merely shows that she felt that she herself was her strongest protector. Probably a pretty good bet for a spunky gal.
I think this fits well with Lily.

It doesn't really fit however with the idea of Lily just 'going along' with whatever James and Sirius decided re: the SK, which seems to be what Sirius implied in PoA.
We don't know exactly what went on with deciding secret keeper and what not, so I don't think we can know for sure that Lily had no say in it. Lily dated and married James, so it would make sense that she would also get along with his best friend (at least on would hope). Given the letter from Lily to Sirius that both Harry and Snape found, I would think the two were on good terms. Plus, all of them were fighting with the Order for quite a while now. It wouldn't surprise me if they were all pretty tight by the time Harry was born.

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

Lily saw everything based on what Snape had said. She believed what he said before the opinion of someone else, for awhile anyway.


Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

It seems very unlikely--but I believe that it is never too late for forgiveness. However, I think that they were happier away from each other.


Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

She seemed like the kind of girl that everyone likes. I imagine that she was nice to everyone. However, I think that besides Snape, her friends were mostly catty, popular girls who didn't see the world the same way that Lily did.


According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

This shows how kind Lily was. She accepted anyone (except James Potter for awhile).


Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

After Snape called her a "mudblood," Lily realized that he wasn't that much different than the Slytherins he was hanging around. Had she lived, she probably would have always felt guilty--she would blame herself for Snape becoming a Death Eater. (But if she lived, Snape wouldn't have switched sides, which opens up another can of worms.)

Had she lived, she probably would have always felt guilty--she would blame herself for Snape becoming a Death Eater.I would have to disagree with this. Lily knew that Severus was well on his way to becoming a Death Eater on his own, and nothing she said would have made him change his mind at that time in his life. I never got the sense that she would have blamed herself for Severus' choice, though I do think she was upset he chose that way.

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
Well i think at first she took everything he said literally. Most of the things he said would have been right, but his point of view was a bit more obvious. He wanted to be a Slytherin and wanted her to be a Slytherin. She really only knew his side of things until she got there herself. I would imagine she was still really overwhelmed with the magical world and saw that things were not exactly as Snape said. Perhaps upon entering, she had a subjective view on things at first. Once she learned how the magical world worked, she would see that all things are not as they seem. On the flipside, she could still have been very objective to the magical world. We simply dont know.

Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
Hmmm..Not sure. Most of it was on Petunia's side so it would really be up to Petunia to repair that relationship. Im sure Lily was the sort of person who would be willing to forgive her sister if she said sorry.

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.
Her Gryffindor friends were probably not unlike people like Angelina Johnson or Katie Bell. Probably Quidditch players and happy-go-lucky type girls. Your average gal-pal group. Perhaps she had some brainy Ravenclaw friends since Lily was no slouch when it came to magic. I would imagine she actually had friends from each house. Snape was her Slytherin friend (and the only one...)

According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
I think her friends were pretty much what i mentioned above and thought Snape was creepy or mean or whatever. Perhaps they all thought he hung out with "the bad crowd" (which in fact, he did...) so they would wonder why a nice gal like Lily would even talk to a creep like that. It also says alot about Lily's character. She would talk to him and hang out with him regardless of what her friends thought. That means she did what she felt was right.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?
I would assume she had seen Snape's involvement with Death Eater wannabes as a bad move of course. She probably tried to talk him out of it quite a bit and he would stand by them and his choice each time. I would imagine this frustrated her quite a bit. She knew these Death Eater guys hated people like her and she wanted to believe Snape didnt believe in that. When he uttered the word "mudblood", it confirmed what she feared. He indeed believed in that and she wasnt going to tolerate it. I do not think that she thought much of reconsidering it. She stated very clearly "You chose your way, I chose mine!" that was final. Maybe she was a bit sad that he did become a Death Eater, but there would have been nothing she could do about it. Lily chose James and a normal life within the Wizarding World. I highly doubt, had she lived, she would go searching for Snape and trying to reconcile that.

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

I think it made her easier about entering the magical world. Snape was the first (and possibly) only magical person she knew, so she had someone to comfort her. But once she got settled at Hogwarts, I don't think she needed any more comfort, at least not from what I read.

Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

Possibly. On the surface, the problem was Petunia's jealousy. But I believe she was hurt because her sister's magical abilities meant that they would be separated. And that turned out to be true. They seemed close in TPT. It must be hard to be separated from your sibling nine months out of the year. Petunia's letter to Dumbledore is evidence that she wanted to be with her sister. Considering her sister married a Wizard, lived in a wizard village, and laughed about Petunia's Christmas gift being broken, I can't imagine that Lily was all that interested in mending the relationship as the years went on.


Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

I think she made friends from her House like everyone else.


According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

It says that she was more independent than most Hogwarts students are shown to be. It also says that she did not just use Snape as a magical world introduction then abandon him.


Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her?
I would not necessarily say it was the last straw. It was a good enough reason to end a friendship she probably wanted to end for a while. From her little speech about making excuses, she was obviously not happy in the relationship.

Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

There are many possibilities. Assuming that she would have stayed married to James – they were only 21 after all – I don't think she would have. She would have had too much influence from James and Sirius, the two people who hated them most and seemed to still be in Hogwarts mode.

If she had had some independence and a chance to grow as a person, I think it's possible she would have. She may have learned through life experiences that people make mistakes when they're young, sometimes really horrible ones, and may have found it in her heart to forgive him. Assuming Snape did not become a Death Eater, I think they certainly could have worked their way back to friends. She may have realized that some people need more time to grow and change than others and Snape was one of those people.

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
I think it made her feel more comfortable being a witch. As we recall, Petunia was quite mean to her, calling her a freak.

Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
I don't think so. Petunia's feelings seemed very rooted, not easily to be changed, IMO.

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.
I imagined her having lots of Gyffindor friends, while Snape was probably her only Slytherin friend. Also, I thought her friends could have had a grudge or something towards Snape, and it probably made Lily look at her friendship with him differently.
According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
See above.
And this kind of ties in with the above as well: I thought it was a bit cruel for her to break off her friendship with Snape. It seemed like she was influenced to see whether any of her friends would use "good" magick compared to Dark magick. It seemed she was a bit stuck up in that regard, but nonetheless, she was a good friend to all her friends.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?
I think she would have not forgiven him for it if she had lived. As we know, Snape turned away from the DE mindset and actions all because of her death. A huge wake call, as it seemed. If she lived, we probably wouldn't have Snape getting away from the DEs at such an early time.
She would see this as a conformation that he didn't change his ways.

However, I think after some time, there is a possibility she would forgive him, as she was an overall good person as far as we know.

(all my opinions, otherwise noted)

I never got the sense that she would have blamed herself for Severus' choice, though I do think she was upset he chose that way.

I am not sure Lily knew Snape had become a DE, as she guessed he would a couple of years back. Sirius in GOF did not know Snape had been a DE once and I think Lily may have been unaware of it.

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

I think it helped her in a way. She became part of the magical world earlier then most muggle borns so it was like she was slowly eased into it.

Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

I think if Snape hadn't told Lily about Hogwarts they might have had a better chance. And if Petunia was more willing to forgive and forget.

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

She probably hung around with the more popular girls since J.K. Rowling said Lily was popular. And then I think she would have hung out with the more studious people as well, like Remus Lupin.

According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

Well I think it doesn't show anything bad about her character. I mean Snape was in Slytherin and associated himself with wannabe Death Eaters. I also think it shows that Lily hoped that Snape would change and did really care for him.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

I think Snape hanging around with people that hate Lily for who she is was a really big problem. There were probably many reasons why Snape calling her mudblood was the last straw. If she had lived and saw how Snape helped Harry, I think she would have forgiven him.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

I think Snape hanging around with people that hate Lily for who she is was a really big problem. There were probably many reasons why Snape calling her mudblood was the last straw. If she had lived and saw how Snape helped Harry, I think she would have forgiven him.

I agree with all of this. :agree:

Welcome to CoS, by the way! :wave:

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
I think, had Lily never met Snape outside of the wizarding world, they would never have become friends at Hogwarts. She tolerated his dark side because deep down, she knew he had the goodness in him to change because she had seen it when they were children. I think it probably made Lily more aware of the fact that there wasn't a clear line between good and bad too.

2.Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

Quite simply, Petunia just had to "get over it". She wasn't a witch and that was the end of it. I find it odd that Petunia never got over it, infact she hated Lily even when she was dead just through jealousy? It's very odd. You would have thought Petunia would have grown out of it and eventually made up with Lily but apparently, they never really did.

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

I think this friendship helped her to be open to friendships with a variety of people. Her naturally kind personality, along with Snape's interest in guiding her, enabled her to have a fairly smooth transition from a nonmagical life to life at Hogwarts.

Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

Yes, I think they had the potential to make up. When Lily leaves for Hogwarts (in Snape's memory in DH), Petunia seems a bit sad. Either one could have made the first move, but I think they were being stubborn.

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

Probably a variety of friends of all backgrounds, from each house.

According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

I think this indicates that she was independent, and chose to befriend whom she wanted, and did not need others' approval for her decisions.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

Lily was kind and patient with Snape, and defended him when he was being harassed and ridiculed. I think she saw potential in him, and perhaps hoped he would learn to avoid certain situations, or figure out how to fit in with the others. I think she was crushed when he used this word. Who wants to be the target of a slur, especially from someone considered a friend? I think she cared about him as a friend, and could have cared more, but this offended her enough to become estranged from him.

If Lily had lived, with or without James, I think it would have taken a long time to forgive Snape.

2.Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

Quite simply, Petunia just had to "get over it". She wasn't a witch and that was the end of it. I find it odd that Petunia never got over it, infact she hated Lily even when she was dead just through jealousy? It's very odd. You would have thought Petunia would have grown out of it and eventually made up with Lily but apparently, they never really did.

I'm not too surprised that Petunia couldn't get over it. Her sister was a witch and she wasn't - that's a pretty big deal. And on top of that (and partly because of it) she felt that Lily was the favorite, and that is quite damaging. But if Petunia could just forget about her sister, forget that she'd ever even found out about the magical world, everything could have been okay. So she threw herself into the Muggle world, hating magic, trying to pretend it didn't exist. And then Harry showed up on her doorstep as a constant reminder of what her sister had that she didn't. Petunia turned into a pretty horrible woman, and I could never condone the way she treated Harry, but I have sympathy for her motives.

Lily is depicted as a sweet, caring girl, and I am sure she continued to be kind to Petunia, but that just must have made matters worse because Petunia resented her, and Lily acted so nice, as though Petunia had nothing to resent. I think if Lily had lived, there may have been more of a chance for the relationship to be repaired. But spending your life hating your sister and then finding out that she's dead (and later having to watch her child!) is pretty damaging and definitely messed up Petunia and caused her to be even more conflicted in her feelings. Even if she'd wanted to make things right again, she couldn't. So she just turned into an even more hateful person.

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

I find this very fascinating. For a muggle-born wizard or witch, even if they are demonstrating strange powers from a young age (as Lily does), the defining moment when they are told they are in fact magical - and that there is an entirely different world for them - would obviously be an extremely significant moment. It is stated by Snape that someone from Hogwarts normally comes to a Muggle house to explain to the family: but for Lily, the information came from a boy her own age, someone on her own level. Thus she is then able to express her fears and excitement for the prospect of Hogwarts to someone who understands wizards, but is still naive enough to be relatable and not intimidating to her.

In my opinion this would strengthen the bond between Lily and Severus - much like Harry and Hagrid; whose friendship I believe to be strengthened partly because it was the half-giant who introduced him to the wizarding world.

I also believe that although the friendship between Lily and Severus ends, this bond would never really be broken.

I also believe that although the friendship between Lily and Severus ends, this bond would never really be broken.

Yes. But while we have proofs that it existed for Snape - till the end of his life - we don't know if Lily kept caring for him. :sigh:

I don't think it was all Petunia's fault.
Remember Lily sneaking into Petunia's room with Snape? Sisters sneak and pry all the time-- but with one of their friends? One who disliked Petunia? No wonder 'Tuney' was so mad! I don't think Lily meant any harm, but she seemed to have expected Petunia to 1. Either be a witch herself or 2.Be happy for her. Petunia was what, twelve? She and Lily were very immature, but I think a great part of the fault lies with Lily. Lily doesn't try to understand her behavior--or Snape's, years later. She doesn't try to understand their jealousy, or their pain. She cares, but she doesn't always understand--and in Petunia's case, she didn't even try.
I don't think it was intentional, but Lily's behavior left some pretty deep wounds. We don't see any pain or remorse about her sister in Lily's later life. She writes to Sirius and at one point, when describing Harry's antics, mentions him knocking over a vase Petunia sent her for Christmas. I don't have the book with me, but I remember she expressed a light-hearted relief, instead of being unhappy. Petunia, however, is still holding a giant grudge. She sulks and whines about what a freak her sister was, even after Lily is dead and she herself is grown. Lily was obviously miserable at Petunia's cruelty. But she was never seen with any lasting signs of grief, whereas Petunia is left bitter and hateful.

Remember Lily sneaking into Petunia's room with Snape? Sisters sneak and pry all the time-- but with one of their friends? One who disliked Petunia? No wonder 'Tuney' was so mad! I don't think Lily meant any harm, but she seemed to have expected Petunia to 1. Either be a witch herself or 2.Be happy for her. Petunia was what, twelve? She and Lily were very immature, but I think a great part of the fault lies with Lily. Lily doesn't try to understand her behavior--or Snape's, years later. She doesn't try to understand their jealousy, or their pain. She cares, but she doesn't always understand--and in Petunia's case, she didn't even try.

I agree. Lily is built up beautifully through the 6 books, but the Prince's Tale shows some faults and makes her as human as others in the series are imo.

I don't think it was intentional, but Lily's behavior left some pretty deep wounds. We don't see any pain or remorse about her sister in Lily's later life. She writes to Sirius and at one point, when describing Harry's antics, mentions him knocking over a vase Petunia sent her for Christmas. I don't have the book with me, but I remember she expressed a light-hearted relief, instead of being unhappy. Petunia, however, is still holding a giant grudge. She sulks and whines about what a freak her sister was, even after Lily is dead and she herself is grown. Lily was obviously miserable at Petunia's cruelty. But she was never seen with any lasting signs of grief, whereas Petunia is left bitter and hateful.

:agree:

With Petunia, Lily justifies her stand and also takes it a step further when she defends it with an attack on Petunia's vulnerability. Likewise, I think she shows a similar nature when she is talking to Snape sometime after the werewolf incident.

Yes. But while we have proofs that it existed for Snape - till the end of his life - we don't know if Lily kept caring for him. :sigh:

She certainly could not replace him imo.

=The_Green_Woods;5553243]I agree. Lily is built up beautifully through the 6 books, but the Prince's Tale shows some faults and makes her as human as others in the series are imo.

All humans have faults and Lily was cruelly murdered before she really ever had a chance to reconcile with her sister. She was at Hogwarts till she was 17 for 9 months out of the year. Then she was a young married woman and fighting member of the Order. And of course in her final 2 years of her short life she was in hiding and pregnant, then the mother of an infant. She was very warmly human with all the faults that a loving young girl reasonably could be expected tp have. I agree with you

With Petunia, Lily justifies her stand and also takes it a step further when she defends it with an attack on Petunia's vulnerability. Likewise, I think she shows a similar nature when she is talking to Snape sometime after the werewolf incident.

Poor Petunia, fated always to be so much less than her younger sister. I really could see Lily trying later in her life to reconcile, but Petunia? We got the measure of Petunia's personality when we see Harry wake up as a 10 year old in the cupboard under the stairs.


She certainly could not replace him imo.

Well to be fair to Lily, I don't think she would want to have any any Death Eater as a friend.

Poor Petunia, fated always to be so much less than her younger sister. I really could see Lily trying later in her life to reconcile, but Petunia? We got the measure of Petunia's personality when we see Harry wake up as a 10 year old in the cupboard under the stairs.

We get an even greater measure of Petunia's personality, imo, when she can't even bring herself to wish Harry good luck, knowing full well that she may never see him again.

Thanks, The_Green_Woods! I was hoping you guys would agree-- Lily's portrayed as being perfect--Slughorn's favorite, Snape's love, James's wife, Harry's courageous mother--but as a sister, I think her flaws appear and that is why I believe she was closer to Snape than her girl friends, because she had had a hard time with her sister, so we never see her with female friends, only "brother figures"-- Sirius, Lupin, Wormtail, Snape.

[

I also believe that although the friendship between Lily and Severus ends, this bond would never really be broken.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. You see, the way I see the bond between Lily and Snape is somehow similar to Sirius/James, maybe this is saying too much, but through my experience in life, people who share a common home place (rememember they were neighbours) seem to have a deeper bond, because no doubt at her first years, she could make with him comparations between her homeland and the Wizarding World, and other sort of things to talk about which she would never be able to talk about to any Griffindor no matter how similar their ideals were in the rest of the topics. And this was this way for 5 years, 5 very important years, they are told once and another to be best friends, not just friends. And for a caring person like Lily it just doesn't fit the character to forget her best friend. Maybe she had broken their friendship but for the bons it is much more complicated.

I have always had the impression that the day she broke their friendship she came to be a little bit scared of him. You see, he used to hang around with those people who did "that" to Mary McDonald, she though Snape will never actually pass from being with them to act like them, but there, in that word, was the truth that he actually was able to go against her. I think the matter was not only that she didn't approve what Severus was aiming to become but that she didn't want to be the next Mary McDonald.

As if Lily, had she lived would have forgive him. Well, as someone said before, Lily is very caring, but not very understanding. Probably Snape had difficulties even beween the Slitherins due to his ancestry (half-blood) that's why he picked up a nickname "to be accepted by Malfoy and his gang" according to Harry (or Hermione, I don't remember right now, at the end of HBP). But he wanted to impress Lily, so he probably hide this from her. So in the end Lily was not aware of the difficulties Snape really had, if she had pressure to cut her friendship with Snape, he, must also have had pressure to cut his friendship with her. Plus the fact that he was poor, and not carismatic. So for him the frienship was more challenging. And that is the reason he broke first.
I am not saying that he was not fascinated by the dark arts, but according to Sirius he was already fascinated by the DA when he entered Hogwarts, and this didn't prevent them from being friends, what changed here was that he had peer presure to acknoledge DE beliefs in order to be accepted, and Snape wanted very much to be accepted and valuated in order to impress Lily.

What I mean is that the deep bond probably was not broken. And with the time passing Lily would have realized how hard had it been for Snape to keep their friendship, and how he had let their mates "brainwash" him in order to fit in with them (wich at those time it was very important for him). And I believe at least in her heart she would have forgave him, and probably if given the chance, tried to redo the friendship. (it is true that the chance didn't came because he was DE, but maybe she hoped winning Voldemort also would mean "setting Snape free" from the path he himself has taken.

Well to be fair to Lily, I don't think she would want to have any any Death Eater as a friend.

No, of course she wouldn't. She absolutely detested the behaviour and actions of them. But the Snape that Lily originally meets and befriends is not yet a Death Eater.

We must remember that we see The Prince's Tale through the eyes and mind of Severus Snape; and even then it is passed through the Harry filter - it is Harry's thoughts and opinions of what he witnesses in Snape's memories that we are subjected to afterwards. It is very easy for people to focus on what could be considered Snape's unhealthy or obsessive love. This is clearly demonstrated in the memories: Snape following Lily, Snape listening in on her conversations, Snape attempting to put her off James..the focus is very much on Severus, naturally. And afterwards, Harry also seems to focus on this and not his mother's possible feelings. We are given the words Lily says, but not the thoughts behind them. How are we to know whether or not calling time on her friendship with Snape was an easy decision? How do we know that saying her goodbyes wasn't one of the hardest things she had to do?

It thus becomes extremely difficult to decipher what Lily's thoughts and opinions would have been in this situation. All we can really go on is that she was a loving and caring mother to Harry; this we know from the very beginning of the series. We are also shown that she at least tries to remain on speaking terms with her sister, despite their arguments over Lily's imminent departure to Hogwarts. Thus we can assume, or at least hope, that she would also be a loving and caring friend. Through Snape's eyes, it seems that she was a good friend to him for 5 years - in my opinion. I mostly draw this from the train scene, to be honest, as for me it really mirrors the Harry/Ron confrontation with Malfoy on the Hogwart's Express in PS, except this time it is James and his friends who believe themselves superior; and Lily who chooses she would rather be with the less arrogant (and in her eyes more friendly) Snape. This to me sets up an opening for a close friendship between the two.
Regardless of whether you believe this or not, though, it is clear fact that Lily states she was often forced to 'make excuses' for their friendship later on, and it takes 5 years for her to finally say they cannot be friends any longer. If she didn't care about Severus at all, wouldn't she have packed it all in long ago?

Now, we know that Lily takes personal insult very seriously, and very much to heart. Petunia calls her a 'freak' - and it seems that this was enough, that this defining moment led to a rift that was never healed. She dislikes James and his friends and seems to hold a grudge for their arrogance and name-calling on the train. And it is, of course, the 'mudblood' insult which Lily really cannot forgive; and understandably so - the trust between herself and Severus is broken. The innocence that they both had as children, in that simple moment where they sit cross-legged facing each other and Snape tells Lily that it makes no difference at all if you are Muggle-born, is gone forever. I don't think anyone at this point would necessarily defend Snape's actions; no matter how much peer pressure he was under, or how much he wanted to fit in - his treatment of Lily was unacceptable - but I think it is safe to say that this is the defining moment of their friendship, and of course it's end.

As this thread is not about Snape I will not attempt to explain away his behaviour or feelings of insecurity. But what I will say is that I think we are shown that Lily does have a forgiving personality - and I draw this from the fact that she forgives James; for all of his arrogance and rudeness in the lower years, for his disrespect and yes, for his bullying of Snape (and probably others). We are never shown nor told what caused this change of heart, but it clearly demonstrates Lily has the capacity to forgive. This is the only indicator (without our own little vial of Lily memories...if only) that we can use to suggest that there is a possibility she could have forgiven Severus.

I hope that if she had lived, she would have forgived Severus his mistakes. He lived his entire life attempting to redeem himself for them, and I think he would have deserved her forgiveness.

Sorry if this was a bit rambling...I'm tired :)

EDIT:
I also would like to point out that Dumbledore mentions that Harry's nature and temperament is very similar to his mothers. We know that Harry completely forgives and finally understands Severus; could this lend weight to the argument that she would have done the same if she had still lived?

No, of course she wouldn't. She absolutely detested the behaviour and actions of them. But the Snape that Lily originally meets and befriends is not yet a Death Eater.

We must remember that we see The Prince's Tale through the eyes and mind of Severus Snape; and even then it is passed through the Harry filter - it is Harry's thoughts and opinions of what he witnesses in Snape's memories that we are subjected to afterwards. It is very easy for people to focus on what could be considered Snape's unhealthy or obsessive love. This is clearly demonstrated in the memories: Snape following Lily, Snape listening in on her conversations, Snape attempting to put her off James..the focus is very much on Severus, naturally. And afterwards, Harry also seems to focus on this and not his mother's possible feelings. We are given the words Lily says, but not the thoughts behind them. How are we to know whether or not calling time on her friendship with Snape was an easy decision? How do we know that saying her goodbyes wasn't one of the hardest things she had to do?

It thus becomes extremely difficult to decipher what Lily's thoughts and opinions would have been in this situation. All we can really go on is that she was a loving and caring mother to Harry; this we know from the very beginning of the series. We are also shown that she at least tries to remain on speaking terms with her sister, despite their arguments over Lily's imminent departure to Hogwarts. Thus we can assume, or at least hope, that she would also be a loving and caring friend. Through Snape's eyes, it seems that she was a good friend to him for 5 years - in my opinion. I mostly draw this from the train scene, to be honest, as for me it really mirrors the Harry/Ron confrontation with Malfoy on the Hogwart's Express in PS, except this time it is James and his friends who believe themselves superior; and Lily who chooses she would rather be with the less arrogant (and in her eyes more friendly) Snape. This to me sets up an opening for a close friendship between the two.
Regardless of whether you believe this or not, though, it is clear fact that Lily states she was often forced to 'make excuses' for their friendship later on, and it takes 5 years for her to finally say they cannot be friends any longer. If she didn't care about Severus at all, wouldn't she have packed it all in long ago?

Now, we know that Lily takes personal insult very seriously, and very much to heart. Petunia calls her a 'freak' - and it seems that this was enough, that this defining moment led to a rift that was never healed. She dislikes James and his friends and seems to hold a grudge for their arrogance and name-calling on the train. And it is, of course, the 'mudblood' insult which Lily really cannot forgive; and understandably so - the trust between herself and Severus is broken. The innocence that they both had as children, in that simple moment where they sit cross-legged facing each other and Snape tells Lily that it makes no difference at all if you are Muggle-born, is gone forever. I don't think anyone at this point would necessarily defend Snape's actions; no matter how much peer pressure he was under, or how much he wanted to fit in - his treatment of Lily was unacceptable - but I think it is safe to say that this is the defining moment of their friendship, and of course it's end.

As this thread is not about Snape I will not attempt to explain away his behaviour or feelings of insecurity. But what I will say is that I think we are shown that Lily does have a forgiving personality - and I draw this from the fact that she forgives James; for all of his arrogance and rudeness in the lower years, for his disrespect and yes, for his bullying of Snape (and probably others). We are never shown nor told what caused this change of heart, but it clearly demonstrates Lily has the capacity to forgive. This is the only indicator (without our own little vial of Lily memories...if only) that we can use to suggest that there is a possibility she could have forgiven Severus.

I hope that if she had lived, she would have forgived Severus his mistakes. He lived his entire life attempting to redeem himself for them, and I think he would have deserved her forgiveness.

Sorry if this was a bit rambling...I'm tired :)

EDIT:
I also would like to point out that Dumbledore mentions that Harry's nature and temperament is very similar to his mothers. We know that Harry completely forgives and finally understands Severus; could this lend weight to the argument that she would have done the same if she had still lived?

Yes, I agree, Lily has proved to have a forgiving personality, regardless of Snape's reasons and preasures, she is the kind of people who forgives. She just needed time and reasons (something good done by Snape) the fact is that there was no time and in the following years he showed no evident remorse.

EDIT:
I also would like to point out that Dumbledore mentions that Harry's nature and temperament is very similar to his mothers. We know that Harry completely forgives and finally understands Severus; could this lend weight to the argument that she would have done the same if she had still lived?

I have to say it would attest to her forgiving of Snape, but it would take a lot to repair what they lost, as they ended their friendship on quite a sour note. Had Lily lived and known what Snape did because of her, I think she would've felt inclined to forgive him.

I think a full blown explaination (along with apology) would be necessary for her to try and rekindle their friendship. I'm not saying she would be snobbish about it and demand he get on his knees and beg or anything, but she seems... fierce; independent. Being called "mudblood" would've really been a low blow: think of it as someone insulting your family, which is essentially what Snape did. It is hard to forgive something like that easily.

She did forgive James, eventually, but as far as we know, he never insulted her directly. He attacked her friend, but she wasn't his friend from 6th year on. It's easier to forgive for what happened to someone else, rather than you, and she even had a reason to dislike (I don't think hate) Snape at that point.

I have to say it would attest to her forgiving of Snape, but it would take a lot to repair what they lost, as they ended their friendship on quite a sour note. Had Lily lived and known what Snape did because of her, I think she would've felt inclined to forgive him.

I think a full blown explaination (along with apology) would be necessary for her to try and rekindle their friendship. I'm not saying she would be snobbish about it and demand he get on his knees and beg or anything, but she seems... fierce; independent. Being called "mudblood" would've really been a low blow: think of it as someone insulting your family, which is essentially what Snape did. It is hard to forgive something like that easily.

She did forgive James, eventually, but as far as we know, he never insulted her directly. He attacked her friend, but she wasn't his friend from 6th year on. It's easier to forgive for what happened to someone else, rather than you, and she even had a reason to dislike (I don't think hate) Snape at that point.

Yes, Lily certainly wasn't perfect. She was able to forgive all James' bullying and arrogance, but she couldn't forgive one thing Snape said to her. Granted, James apparently (though we never see it!) showed signs of "changing" whereas Snape just got sucked deeper and deeper into becoming a DE for his remaining time at Hogwarts, thinking Lily would be impressed if he became "powerful" that way (and calling her a Mudblood was just part of this). So if Snape had actually showed that he was leaving behind the DEs and Dark Arts within his sixth and seventh year, she may have been a lot more willing to forgive.

But I definitely think Lily was a bit more willing to forgive James readily not just because his negative actions weren't directed toward her, but also because, well, she was attracted to him, even during SWM. I think there's a quote somewhere, maybe by JKR, that she liked him at that point, but I could be wrong. She at least begins to smile for a moment in SWM, betraying how she feels. If that's really true, she was not just attracted to the changed James but to the James who was a jerk, as if she was waiting for him to stop being a jerk so she could truly like him. Maybe Lily liked to have a project - a guy she could get to turn good - though I can't say she would have wanted someone to change just for her, or whether she coaxed James into doing that - we don't see; he may have changed all on his own. But she valued improvement. James did that for her in the end, but to her, Snape didn't.

I still like Lily a lot and can accept that she was hurt by Snape's comment and could not forgive him while at Hogwarts. I appreciate that she went from being a figure who symbolized light and goodness (saving Harry, defending Snape, and being praised just like everyone praised James) to someone more real and human who maybe wasn't as forgiving as one would like to think. She wasn't excessively kind, but she could be excessively kind to someone who showed kindness to her.

Regardless of whether you believe this or not, though, it is clear fact that Lily states she was often forced to 'make excuses' for their friendship later on, and it takes 5 years for her to finally say they cannot be friends any longer. If she didn't care about Severus at all, wouldn't she have packed it all in long ago?

I agree. I think she tried very hard to save their friendship, until she realized that she would have to keep compromising her ideals and sacrificing her self respect to keep it going. I think she cared about Severus, but the price he put on his friendship became too high over the years.

Now, we know that Lily takes personal insult very seriously, and very much to heart. Petunia calls her a 'freak' - and it seems that this was enough, that this defining moment led to a rift that was never healed. She dislikes James and his friends and seems to hold a grudge for their arrogance and name-calling on the train. And it is, of course, the 'mudblood' insult which Lily really cannot forgive; and understandably so - the trust between herself and Severus is broken. The innocence that they both had as children, in that simple moment where they sit cross-legged facing each other and Snape tells Lily that it makes no difference at all if you are Muggle-born, is gone forever. I don't think anyone at this point would necessarily defend Snape's actions; no matter how much peer pressure he was under, or how much he wanted to fit in - his treatment of Lily was unacceptable - but I think it is safe to say that this is the defining moment of their friendship, and of course it's end.

I think it was her realization that Severus was calling everyone of her birth "Mudblood" as well as her that was the thing that made it so unforgivable, not just that it slipped out against her. I gathered from what she said that it was his general behavior that concerned her. The "Mudblood" directed at her seems to me to have been the last straw, because even when he tries to take it back, the apology is only for having directed at her, but doesn't address his attitude towards Muggleborns in general.

As this thread is not about Snape I will not attempt to explain away his behaviour or feelings of insecurity. But what I will say is that I think we are shown that Lily does have a forgiving personality - and I draw this from the fact that she forgives James; for all of his arrogance and rudeness in the lower years, for his disrespect and yes, for his bullying of Snape (and probably others). We are never shown nor told what caused this change of heart, but it clearly demonstrates Lily has the capacity to forgive. This is the only indicator (without our own little vial of Lily memories...if only) that we can use to suggest that there is a possibility she could have forgiven Severus.

In Lily's rant in "Snape's Worst Memory", I feel that she makes clear how much she dislikes the bullying behavior both boys exhibit. I think for her it was also a realization ("You're as bad as he is..."). If they are the same, and she doesn't want to the friend of one because of his behavior, I think she might be asking herself why she would want to continue to be friends with the other.

I think the reason for Lily "forgiving" James is probably straight forward given what she said about the behavior she didn't like. I think James's behavior improved in general while she knew him at school, and so she could then forgive him for specific wrongs. I think Severus's general behavior did not improve for their remaining time at school together, and so she could not forgive him for his specific wrongs.

I hope that if she had lived, she would have forgived Severus his mistakes. He lived his entire life attempting to redeem himself for them, and I think he would have deserved her forgiveness.

I don't think so. I think Lily made clear that she didn't want to be the exception. I think she would have wanted to see Snape treat Muggleborns like they deserved respect because they were humans and she would have liked to see him oppose Voldemort because it was the right thing to do. I don't think she would have approved of the "for Lily" thing, as long as his actions were only based on making an exception for her. To me it seems that was exactly the thing she objected to most when she broke of their friendship.

I also would like to point out that Dumbledore mentions that Harry's nature and temperament is very similar to his mothers. We know that Harry completely forgives and finally understands Severus; could this lend weight to the argument that she would have done the same if she had still lived?

I think she would have forgiven Snape if she had proof that his general behavior had changed for reasons of which she approved, not just because he was sorry Lily had been killed. I think Harry and Snape had a very different relationship than Lily and Severus. In my opinion, Harry harbored a hatred of Snape, born out of ill treatment from a man who had power over him and knowledge of the great harm that Snape did his family. I think Harry forgave because he needed to, and had no wish to nurse a grudge against a dead man. What would be the point, especially after Voldemort had been defeated due to the efforts of everyone working against him, including Snape?

I think for Lily to forgive Snape, Snape would have had to change for the better in general, and do the right thing because it was the right thing to do. I think she wouldn't approve of his treatment of her son, not least because it was based on "for Lily", rather than on Harry deserving to live.

I think the reason for Lily "forgiving" James is probably straight forward given what she said about the behavior she didn't like. I think James's behavior improved in general while she knew him at school, and so she could then forgive him for specific wrongs. I think Severus's general behavior did not improve for their remaining time at school together, and so she could not forgive him for his specific wrongs.
I think we also have to take in consideration that James and his friends joined the Order, and were against the same things Lily was against. As much of a bully James was and as little we have of Lily and James' relationship, the books do give us what they both had in common and that are some things about James that are admirable. I don't think the reasons Lily fell for James is complete mystery given what we have so far.

I think we also have to take in consideration that James and his friends joined the Order, and were against the same things Lily was against. As much of a bully James was and as little we have of Lily and James' relationship, the books do give us what they both had in common and that are some things about James that are admirable. I don't think the reasons Lily fell for James is complete mystery given what we have so far.

Indeed, Lily and James did have that in common-- the desire to stand up for what was right and join the Order to fight for it.

Lily seems to have been repulsed by bullying behavior. Changing the bullying behavior would be enough to stop repulsing Lily, in my opinion, but her not being repulsed isn't the same as her being in love. :lol: It was the other things that made her love James, I think.

All humans have faults and Lily was cruelly murdered before she really ever had a chance to reconcile with her sister.

I am not sure she would have reconciled with Petunia. They seem to have fallen out on the train. Petunia seems to feel antagonistic towards Lily from the time she learnt Lily was a witch and she wasn't; and from Lily side when Petunia refused to forgive her at once for opening her personal letter imo.

We got the measure of Petunia's personality when we see Harry wake up as a 10 year old in the cupboard under the stairs.

Yes; Petunia was a jealous creature who could not even try and wish Harry good luck when she knew he could have died. Having said that though, I can't see Lily trying to reconcile with Petunia had she lived. I believe there was too wide a chasm between the two sisters, one created by both of them.

Well to be fair to Lily, I don't think she would want to have any any Death Eater as a friend.

Maybe; but breaking off the friendship two years earlier? I don't know. :shrug:

The readers know Snape became a DE; so it's easy for them to say what Lily did was right. Lily did not know at the time that Snape would become a DE and maybe she never knew at all. It's interesting that Lily never accuses Snape of bullying others, of practising dark magic. The only fault she finds in him are his Slytherin friends, who she does not like. Pretty lame reason imo to suppose that Snape would become a DE because of his Slytherin friends, when Snape could have just as easily become a non DE because he had a best friend in Lily imo.

Thanks, The_Green_Woods! I was hoping you guys would agree-- Lily's portrayed as being perfect--Slughorn's favorite, Snape's love, James's wife, Harry's courageous mother--but as a sister, I think her flaws appear and that is why I believe she was closer to Snape than her girl friends, because she had had a hard time with her sister, so we never see her with female friends, only "brother figures"-- Sirius, Lupin, Wormtail, Snape.

You are welcome. :)

I don't see Lily as flawed specifically as a sister or a friend. I simply think she was not as perfect as she was made out to be in the first 6 Books - for me that is. :)

Your post about why Lily bonded easily with Snape and other Marauders is interesting though I am not very sure she was very close to the other Marauders as she was to Snape. I wonder if Lily found it as difficult to make friends. There is no friend of Lily mentioned in canon apart from Snape and later she is shown to be cordial with James's friends.

EDIT:
I also would like to point out that Dumbledore mentions that Harry's nature and temperament is very similar to his mothers. We know that Harry completely forgives and finally understands Severus; could this lend weight to the argument that she would have done the same if she had still lived?

I think Harry's trait, when it comes to loyalty towards his friends and forgiving them for their mistakes (the many times Harry forgives Ron for example) is something he has inherited from James more than Lily. Lily is rather unforgiving imo; she is shown so towards Petunia; of course Petunia's jealousy is not right either, but neither sister is keen to mend the gap they know they've been responsible for creating. I think Harry forgives Snape for his role in taking the Prophecy to Voldemort because he understood and saw for himself the anguish Snape felt for his actions and also because of all that Snape did from then on. I am not sure Lily really had the maturity Harry did at her age imo.

Thanks, The_Green_Woods! I was hoping you guys would agree-- Lily's portrayed as being perfect--Slughorn's favorite, Snape's love, James's wife, Harry's courageous mother--but as a sister, I think her flaws appear and that is why I believe she was closer to Snape than her girl friends, because she had had a hard time with her sister, so we never see her with female friends, only "brother figures"-- Sirius, Lupin, Wormtail, Snape.

I agree with this. I was worried for some time that Lily may be another classic Mary-Sue, but then I read Prince's Tale, which shows her to be as much human as anybody else. She was great at everything, but her one true failing is her relationship with her sister. She and Petunia never really reconciled, but I don't think all of the fault must be placed on Petunia alone. Lily was the special one and everybody's favorite Evans girl (along with her parents, I suspect - Petunia mentioned their pride in having a witch for a daughter; oh, and Vernon doesn't count), so it must have been really hard on Petunia, and Lily never quite understood that. Moreover, she never really had the opportunity to bond with her sister, so Petunia is still bitter until today.

Now, to Severus. I think he has a special place in Lily's heart despite her having severed all ties with him. I mean, he was her first friend in the wizarding world. He taught her all she needed to know before getting into Hogwarts. It must have been hard discovering you are a witch and thinking you're the only one among your friends and whatever, so I think Severus made it all easier for her. I agree that their bond will never be broken. After all those years together, how could it be?

Yes, my point is quite similar to yours: Lily might have been caring and forgiving (yes, I believe she was) but after all she was a person who allways saw the good side of life, much like James, and no matter how caring she was, she was never able to step in the feet of a talented boy with abusive father and cruel mates at his house (Snape) he put high price to his frienship, but he had his reasons, he wanted to be admired, (I think Snape was somehow aware how Lily found James somehow amusing even if she didn't want to recognise it even to herself).
Also Lily never put herself in the place of the less talented sister, the one who was shadowed by her younger witch sister.

And those two are the reasons why she lost both of them.
I say it again, caring is not the same as understanding.