Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis

Yes, my point is quite similar to yours: Lily might have been caring and forgiving (yes, I believe she was) but after all she was a person who allways saw the good side of life, much like James, and no matter how caring she was, she was never able to step in the feet of a talented boy with abusive father and cruel mates at his house (Snape) he put high price to his frienship, but he had his reasons, he wanted to be admired, (I think Snape was somehow aware how Lily found James somehow amusing even if she didn't want to recognise it even to herself).
Also Lily never put herself in the place of the less talented sister, the one who was shadowed by her younger witch sister.

And those two are the reasons why she lost both of them.
I say it again, caring is not the same as understanding.

Well one could say that she didn't lose all that much. A so called friend who was bigoted against her ethnicity and a sister who never forgot a wrong, but that would be harsh. I rather think that it was more that Lily was cruelly murdered while still very young. Perhaps she would have forgiven Snape for calling her the worst insult imaginable and them apologising for calling her the insult but not for feeling that every other Muggleborn deserved to be called it. Perhaps she would have forgiven him for joining up with a criminal bunch of murderers, who were trying to kill her and all the other Muggleborns, that might have taken a bit longer though. I know I have a hard time forgiving the Nazi's and their genocide of my people.
Petunia., I don't know. I would hope that if she had been given the time that there might have been a rapprochement between the sisters, but they were very different people. I doubt that if the positions had been reversed that Dudley would have grown up in a cupboard under the stairs.

Yes, my point is quite similar to yours: Lily might have been caring and forgiving (yes, I believe she was) but after all she was a person who allways saw the good side of life, much like James, and no matter how caring she was, she was never able to step in the feet of a talented boy with abusive father and cruel mates at his house (Snape) he put high price to his frienship, but he had his reasons, he wanted to be admired, (I think Snape was somehow aware how Lily found James somehow amusing even if she didn't want to recognise it even to herself).
Also Lily never put herself in the place of the less talented sister, the one who was shadowed by her younger witch sister.

And those two are the reasons why she lost both of them.
I say it again, caring is not the same as understanding.

I think it was understanding that drove a wedge between Lily and Severus, not a lack of understanding. Lily seemed to like the young boy of nine she met as a girl. It was the changes and choices that happened over the years that dissolved the friendship, in my opinion. I think Lily came to realize what those choices were and what they really meant. I think it took awhile for her to understand the scope of what was happening, though, and act on it.

I think she didn't know what to do about her relationship with Petunia
when she was a young girl, either. I think there was lack of understanding there on young Lily's part, even though Lily cared. Realization may have come to Lily about Petunia eventually. Reconciliation takes both parties, though, and considering how bitter Petunia was, I don't think Lily could have fixed the relationship all on her own. Unfortunately we don't get to see much of Lily's life to know whether she even tried. But Lily did keep the ugly vase. She was relieved when the thing was accidently destroyed because it was so ugly, but she hadn't destoyed it with malice and apparently had put it on display because it was a gift from her sister. That's about the only thing I can think of to indicate what Lily thought of her sister, and that's not much to go on. I wish there had been more about Lily in the books.

Just reminding you all that this isn't the Snape thread. That one is still closed. It's okay to mention him here since he was Lily's best friend for a time but this will not turn into a substitute Snape thread where you can continue the kind of debates that got the proper Snape thread closed.

[QUOTE=OldMotherCrow;5553852]
I think she didn't know what to do about her relationship with Petunia
when she was a young girl, either. I think there was lack of understanding there on young Lily's part, even though Lily cared. Realization may have come to Lily about Petunia eventually. Reconciliation takes both parties, though, and considering how bitter Petunia was, I don't think Lily could have fixed the relationship all on her own. Unfortunately we don't get to see much of Lily's life to know whether she even tried.

I think it may have taken her time to realise that Petunia was feeling overshadowed and jealous. However, she did regret falling out with Petunia -she was upset over it on the train.

But Lily did keep the ugly vase. She was relieved when the thing was accidently destroyed because it was so ugly, but she hadn't destoyed it with malice and apparently had put it on display because it was a gift from her sister. That's about the only thing I can think of to indicate what Lily thought of her sister, and that's not much to go on. I wish there had been more about Lily in the books.

That's a good point about the vase -and I personally don't make a big deal about her not liking it - most people have received a gift they didn't like at some point or another, but put on a smile and thanked the giver for their present anyway, out of common courtesy and politeness. Lily didn't have to keep the vase on display, yet she did -it was something from her sister, a sign that if they weren't close, they at least stayed in touch.

I would have liked to see a bit more about Lily, too, especially her relationship with James, her other friends, and her role in the Order.

I think it may have taken her time to realise that Petunia was feeling overshadowed and jealous. However, she did regret falling out with Petunia -she was upset over it on the train.

Yes, I think Lily was very upset at Petunia being angry. I think it would take a little time and maturity for Lily to understand just how Petunia felt. It might take several years of growing up, even, just like it took Harry a while to understand Ron's feelings of being overshadowed. Petunia was very, very, very bitter, though, and even with her sister long dead Petunia's opinion didn't seem to have mellowed, so if Lily had come to understand I don't think we could see the results of that on the relationship because of Petunia's end of it, unless the author told us directly.

Lily didn't have to keep the vase on display, yet she did -it was something from her sister, a sign that if they weren't close, they at least stayed in touch.

Yes, I think it may have been hope, because at least they were still in touch-- even if the vase was ugly, it was from her sister so it was on display. Somehow I doubt that Petunia was visiting Lily, so Lily must have put it on display to please herself rather than the gift-giver. If the vase was a Christmas present, it survived many months in a house with a cat and a baby. Until the baby became a toddler. A flying toddler. I shudder to think of what my house would have been like if I'd had a flying toddler!

I would have liked to see a bit more about Lily, too, especially her relationship with James, her other friends, and her role in the Order.

I'm hoping that if Rowling ever does do her encyclopedia, it will contain a bit more about Lily, her friends and family, and what the first war was like for her.

Yes, I think Lily was very upset at Petunia being angry. I think it would take a little time and maturity for Lily to understand just how Petunia felt. It might take several years of growing up, even, just like it took Harry a while to understand Ron's feelings of being overshadowed. Petunia was very, very, very bitter, though, and even with her sister long dead Petunia's opinion didn't seem to have mellowed, so if Lily had come to understand I don't think we could see the results of that on the relationship because of Petunia's end of it, unless the author told us directly.

Yes, I think it may have been hope, because at least they were still in touch-- even if the vase was ugly, it was from her sister so it was on display. Somehow I doubt that Petunia was visiting Lily, so Lily must have put it on display to please herself rather than the gift-giver. If the vase was a Christmas present, it survived many months in a house with a cat and a baby. Until the baby became a toddler. A flying toddler. I shudder to think of what my house would have been like if I'd had a flying toddler!

I'm hoping that if Rowling ever does do her encyclopedia, it will contain a bit more about Lily, her friends and family, and what the first war was like for her.

I think it is very clear in the memories that Lily did indeed love her sister. I think it is asking too much of a child, as Lily was when she left for Hogwarts, to know what to do in that situation. The vase is a sign that the sister's stayed in touch. As for the vase being ugly, well I once gave my sister a gift and she didn't know what the heck it was. She kept it for ten years and then asked me how to use it. Lily kept the vase and as you say put it on display. Petunia's personality does come through as being both a petty and bitter woman. I keep wondering if her bitterness was part of her grief. Lily was her sister. She must have felt the loss in some way.

I think it was understanding that drove a wedge between Lily and Severus, not a lack of understanding. Lily seemed to like the young boy of nine she met as a girl. It was the changes and choices that happened over the years that dissolved the friendship, in my opinion. I think Lily came to realize what those choices were and what they really meant. I think it took awhile for her to understand the scope of what was happening, though, and act on it.

I think she didn't know what to do about her relationship with Petunia
when she was a young girl, either. I think there was lack of understanding there on young Lily's part, even though Lily cared. Realization may have come to Lily about Petunia eventually. Reconciliation takes both parties, though, and considering how bitter Petunia was, I don't think Lily could have fixed the relationship all on her own. Unfortunately we don't get to see much of Lily's life to know whether she even tried. But Lily did keep the ugly vase. She was relieved when the thing was accidently destroyed because it was so ugly, but she hadn't destoyed it with malice and apparently had put it on display because it was a gift from her sister. That's about the only thing I can think of to indicate what Lily thought of her sister, and that's not much to go on. I wish there had been more about Lily in the books.

Maybe I didn't explain properly. What I meant when I said Lily lacked understanding was that she was not able to put herself in the place of others. Due to her young age she could not put herself in the place of her sister, therefor she couldn't know what the exact problem with her was (ok, she knew her sister wanted to be a witch too, but she didn't want to understand her jealeousness)so she couldn't elaborate the adecuate strategy to befriend her again.

In the case of Snape is clearer: she understood the dark arts where winning Snape, but as she was not able to step on his shoes, she could not say the appropiate things to keep him from getting involved (she could not tell him that being feard will not make him being loved or that he didn't need anything big or impressive to make her love him) (because she didn't understand that about Snape either -his love for her, I mean-) so she was trying to save someone she did not fully understand and she didn't know where to aim her reasons.

In the case of Snape is clearer: she understood the dark arts where winning Snape, but as she was not able to step on his shoes, she could not say the appropiate things to keep him from getting involved (she could not tell him that being feard will not make him being loved or that he didn't need anything big or impressive to make her love him) (because she didn't understand that about Snape either -his love for her, I mean-) so she was trying to save someone she did not fully understand and she didn't know where to aim her reasons.

Lily had tried, she made efforts to talk to her friend about the direction he was taking -to no avail. It was not her responsibility to continue to try to persuade him not to take that path - it was putting her own sense of self-respect at risk. From Lily's point of view, she was being betrayed and humiliated - someone she trusted and cared for was supportive of a group of terrorists that considered her subhuman and throwing a racist slur at her. Mudblood is not just a word, it's demeaning, dehumanising, it's telling the target they have less worth as a human being. I admire Lily's self-respect and strength in refusing to tolerate that.

Maybe I didn't explain properly. What I meant when I said Lily lacked understanding was that she was not able to put herself in the place of others. Due to her young age she could not put herself in the place of her sister, therefor she couldn't know what the exact problem with her was (ok, she knew her sister wanted to be a witch too, but she didn't want to understand her jealeousness)so she couldn't elaborate the adecuate strategy to befriend her again.

In the case of Snape is clearer: she understood the dark arts where winning Snape, but as she was not able to step on his shoes, she could not say the appropiate things to keep him from getting involved (she could not tell him that being feard will not make him being loved or that he didn't need anything big or impressive to make her love him) (because she didn't understand that about Snape either -his love for her, I mean-) so she was trying to save someone she did not fully understand and she didn't know where to aim her reasons.

Perhaps we should be trying to put ourselves in Lily's shoes. What is the worst thing anybody could say to one of us? Now let it not be just anybody, it is your best friend. The one you have spent countless hours reassuring that, yes you are indeed their best friend. They're friendship makes your day. You care about what they do and how they do it. You have defended this person, you have been loyal to this person. You have hurt your sister for this person, and then this person calls by the worst insult imaginable. Something that goes beyond how you look and speak. It's like they have taken your most personal dreams, confided in the knowledge that they would never be betrayed. This person then turns around and in full view of everyone you know, calls you by your nightmare insult.
What would such a betrayal do to any of us? Then this friend compounds this betrayal by joining an illegal criminal organisation whose main purpose in existing is to kill you. You can't walk down a street because your life is in danger from your friend's friends. Would the fact that your friend did not mean for you to be the one they were hunting and killing that day, that he meant for someone else to be the target, really help you feel like understanding him?
If I was in Lily's shoes it might take me a while to try to understand, I will admit it.

Perhaps we should be trying to put ourselves in Lily's shoes. What is the worst thing anybody could say to one of us? Now let it not be just anybody, it is your best friend. The one you have spent countless hours reassuring that, yes you are indeed their best friend. They're friendship makes your day. You care about what they do and how they do it. You have defended this person, you have been loyal to this person. You have hurt your sister for this person, and then this person calls by the worst insult imaginable. Something that goes beyond how you look and speak. It's like they have taken your most personal dreams, confided in the knowledge that they would never be betrayed. This person then turns around and in full view of everyone you know, calls you by your nightmare insult.
What would such a betrayal do to any of us? Then this friend compounds this betrayal by joining an illegal criminal organisation whose main purpose in existing is to kill you. You can't walk down a street because your life is in danger from your friend's friends. Would the fact that your friend did not mean for you to be the one they were hunting and killing that day, that he meant for someone else to be the target, really help you feel like understanding him?
If I was in Lily's shoes it might take me a while to try to understand, I will admit it.
That makes a lot of sense. I completely agree with you, eliza101.

I agree with sekhmetlion. I actually have been in a situation very similar to Lily's and I eventually forgave my friend because I realized she wasn't evil, just incredibly stupid, misguided, and lacking in self-esteem. That's how I view Snape, and I don't think Lily fully understood how he felt. I don't blame her on how she handled the situation because I'm sure she was hurt and frustrated and she had no obligation to stay friends with someone she didn't want to be friends with. But Lily is just one character with one type of personality. Not everyone would handle the situation the same way she did.

Perhaps we should be trying to put ourselves in Lily's shoes. What is the worst thing anybody could say to one of us? Now let it not be just anybody, it is your best friend. The one you have spent countless hours reassuring that, yes you are indeed their best friend. They're friendship makes your day. You care about what they do and how they do it. You have defended this person, you have been loyal to this person. You have hurt your sister for this person, and then this person calls by the worst insult imaginable. Something that goes beyond how you look and speak. It's like they have taken your most personal dreams, confided in the knowledge that they would never be betrayed. This person then turns around and in full view of everyone you know, calls you by your nightmare insult.
What would such a betrayal do to any of us? Then this friend compounds this betrayal by joining an illegal criminal organisation whose main purpose in existing is to kill you. You can't walk down a street because your life is in danger from your friend's friends. Would the fact that your friend did not mean for you to be the one they were hunting and killing that day, that he meant for someone else to be the target, really help you feel like understanding him?
If I was in Lily's shoes it might take me a while to try to understand, I will admit it.
And as some one who is familiar with Lily's scenario due to her own life experience, it would take me a while to understand as well.

I agree with sekhmetlion. I actually have been in a situation very similar to Lily's and I eventually forgave my friend because I realized she wasn't evil, just incredibly stupid, misguided, and lacking in self-esteem. That's how I view Snape, and I don't think Lily fully understood how he felt. I don't blame her on how she handled the situation because I'm sure she was hurt and frustrated and she had no obligation to stay friends with someone she didn't want to be friends with. But Lily is just one character with one type of personality. Not everyone would handle the situation the same way she did.
Then why is she judged harshly for doing so when its very understandable of why she did what she did?

Oh dear, we're veering into this territory again...

Then why is she judged harshly for doing so when its very understandable of why she did what she did?

Oh dear, we're veering into this territory again...

I don't know; I only speak for myself. I don't judge her harshly. I don't find her all that likable but I'm not required to.

I agree with sekhmetlion. I actually have been in a situation very similar to Lily's and I eventually forgave my friend because I realized she wasn't evil, just incredibly stupid, misguided, and lacking in self-esteem.

I forgot to add. I don't know what your situation was, if it involved racism or not.

This is directed to the entire thread, but what Lily experienced from Snape was racism. I'd rather someone react just like how Lily did if they were in the same situation, because racial slurs are something I find harmful and no one should tolerate. If they want to forgive, if they feel there is room for forgiveness and staying friends with someone, that's their choice. Racism affects many of us in varying degrees in which we each may handle differently. Because of those differences, whether or not I am forgiving of someone calling me slur, I don't think it's fair to expect someone else to treat it the same way I do, fictional or not.

I don't think it's fair to expect someone else to treat it the same way I do, fictional or not.

Neither do I. That is why I think asking questions like "How would you handle the situation" is not helpful.

ETA: One may forgive someone without tolerating what they did. Forgiveness is giving someone another chance and letting them start over.

Neither do I. That is why I think asking questions like "How would you handle the situation" is not helpful.

ETA: One may forgive someone without tolerating what they did. Forgiveness is giving someone another chance and letting them start over.

I agree with some of what you say, but we have to remember that Lily's life was at stake. It was being threatened by very dangerous people. It was not simply a forgive and forget scenario. IF it was then I would say that Lily was perhaps not as forthcoming with her understanding as she could have been. The problem with that is that Lily knew exactly what was at stake, she knew the root cause of what happened. It was the ugliest part of the human psyche imaginable. And it was directly threatening her life. She literally could not afford to ignore what was happening, and she was correct. A few years later she would be killed because of that ugliness.

I agree with some of what you say, but we have to remember that Lily's life was at stake. It was being threatened by very dangerous people. It was not simply a forgive and forget scenario. IF it was then I would say that Lily was perhaps not as forthcoming with her understanding as she could have been. The problem with that is that Lily knew exactly what was at stake, she knew the root cause of what happened. It was the ugliest part of the human psyche imaginable. And it was directly threatening her life. She literally could not afford to ignore what was happening, and she was correct. A few years later she would be killed because of that ugliness.

That is what I meant earlier by Lily understanding. She could see the big picture, in my opinion, and at age sixteen she understood which path she needed to walk. To me it is not a matter of her not understanding Severus's home life enough. She knew from a young age it wasn't good and she sympathized with her friend. But she wasn't going to fix his problems by tolerating or supporting Voldemort's followers. I think she could only do so much about her friend's choices, if he was determined to make them. She tried to talk to him repeatedly about how concerned she was with what he was getting into, but he didn't seem interested in what she had to say. The thing she did have control over was her own choices, and she chose to fight for what she believed was right.

That is what I meant earlier by Lily understanding. She could see the big picture, in my opinion, and at age sixteen she understood which path she needed to walk. To me it is not a matter of her not understanding Severus's home life enough. She knew from a young age it wasn't good and she sympathized with her friend. But she wasn't going to fix his problems by tolerating or supporting Voldemort's followers. I think she could only do so much about her friend's choices, if he was determined to make them. She tried to talk to him repeatedly about how concerned she was with what he was getting into, but he didn't seem interested in what she had to say. The thing she did have control over was her own choices, and she chose to fight for what she believed was right.

Exactly, Lily knew, as only a person whose very right to exist knows, what was at stake. The falling out with Petunia did not threaten her life. She could afford there to think that with time she could mend broken fences. This was a normal family fight and who knows, perhaps she could have. She kept the vase and put it on display.
But with Snape, she could not take the chance that being his token 'mudblood' would be safe. When he said that the practise of Dark Magic was a 'laugh' and then called her a 'mudblood', she knew that his values had undergone a radical change from the young boy she knew before Hogwarts. This was compounded when he told her he did not mean to call her a 'mudblood' and not that it was abhorrent to use the word to anybody. Her friend was no longer there and before her stood someone who was walking down a path that we the readers would learn, would someday lead to the genocide of her and everybody like her. IMO, she chose to fight. She probably didn't know about the Order at that time, she just knew she wasn't going down without a fight, that her life was not something she was going to give up on.

Exactly, Lily knew, as only a person whose very right to exist knows, what was at stake. The falling out with Petunia did not threaten her life. She could afford there to think that with time she could mend broken fences. This was a normal family fight and who knows, perhaps she could have. She kept the vase and put it on display.
But with Snape, she could not take the chance that being his token 'mudblood' would be safe. When he said that the practise of Dark Magic was a 'laugh' and then called her a 'mudblood', she knew that his values had undergone a radical change from the young boy she knew before Hogwarts. This was compounded when he told her he did not mean to call her a 'mudblood' and not that it was abhorrent to use the word to anybody. Her friend was no longer there and before her stood someone who was walking down a path that we the readers would learn, would someday lead to the genocide of her and everybody like her. IMO, she chose to fight. She probably didn't know about the Order at that time, she just knew she wasn't going down without a fight, that her life was not something she was going to give up on.

Definitely. Her falling out with Snape was not anybody's fault but Snape's himself. He chose to follow Avery, Mulciber and the others to become Death Eaters, each step toward them a step farther from Lily. I believe in your statement that Lily just did the right thing in preparing and actually fighting to the death for her family.

Definitely. Her falling out with Snape was not anybody's fault but Snape's himself. He chose to follow Avery, Mulciber and the others to become Death Eaters, each step toward them a step farther from Lily. I believe in your statement that Lily just did the right thing in preparing and actually fighting to the death for her family.

I'm sorry, I can't see a proof that Lily actually saw a foreshadowing of her death when dismissing Snape's friendship. Actually, Snape wasn't a Death Eater. She decided to stop this friendship. She had her reasons. But we don't really know what she knew doing that.

You are right, Lily made a great friend and was without a doubt a great person, but I think she did not always consider how others were feeling--Petunia and Snape, for instance.

Exactly, Lily knew, as only a person whose very right to exist knows, what was at stake. The falling out with Petunia did not threaten her life. She could afford there to think that with time she could mend broken fences. This was a normal family fight and who knows, perhaps she could have. She kept the vase and put it on display.
But with Snape, she could not take the chance that being his token 'mudblood' would be safe. When he said that the practise of Dark Magic was a 'laugh' and then called her a 'mudblood', she knew that his values had undergone a radical change from the young boy she knew before Hogwarts. This was compounded when he told her he did not mean to call her a 'mudblood' and not that it was abhorrent to use the word to anybody. Her friend was no longer there and before her stood someone who was walking down a path that we the readers would learn, would someday lead to the genocide of her and everybody like her. IMO, she chose to fight. She probably didn't know about the Order at that time, she just knew she wasn't going down without a fight, that her life was not something she was going to give up on.

I don't think it's as simple as this, although I do agree with some of what you're saying. Although I am aware this thread is about Lily, and Lily alone, I think it necessary to defend Snape a bit here (oh, gosh..I'll be quick)

Basically, I really, really believe that if Lily had returned Snape's feelings, then Snape would have given up everything for her with a drop of a hat. Did she know he was in love with her? Canon doesn't tell us; but there is always that possibility. In fact, we have absolutely nothing about Snape from Lily's point of view. So I agree with UselessCharmMaster that we really can't make assumptions.

What I will say is this: they are still children. They still make mistakes. I don't see this as being about 'Lily wanting to survive', but about Lily letting go of a close childhood friend, letting go of her childhood, almost. If she had been able to forgive Severus for calling her a 'mudblood', would that have been enough for Snape to realise that she wasn't worth losing? Would he have 'seen the light' years earlier than he eventually did? Would he have given it all up, there and then, for her? It is a pivotal moment for Snape; and I believe more so than for Lily, because this final dismissal was possibly the catalyst for Snape to give in to the stereotype and become a Death Eater.

The point I'm trying to make in terms of Lily is that although, yes, she had every right to turn away from Severus - maybe if she hadn't, the story could have ended differently. Unrequited love is an impossibility, a tragedy all of its own. This argument isn't about life and death in my own personal opinion, but about the estrangement of two people; one yearning for the other. Lily becomes steadily less able to deal with Severus' desire to fit in somewhere, especially with a bunch of Death Eaters, he becomes increasingly desperate to prove himself as worth something. And so the friendship ends, with two flawed teenagers (no-one is perfect) facing up to each other and trying to find a common ground where there is no common ground anymore. It's not as simple as saying Lily 'chose to fight.' We don't know what it cost her to say goodbye to Severus, and we don't know the thoughts running through her head that made her do so.

I'm not sure what I'm saying makes sense..but I know what I mean at least :D

Basically, I really, really believe that if Lily had returned Snape's feelings, then Snape would have given up everything for her with a drop of a hat. Did she know he was in love with her? Canon doesn't tell us; but there is always that possibility. In fact, we have absolutely nothing about Snape from Lily's point of view. So I agree with UselessCharmMaster that we really can't make assumptions.

Maybe Lily knew, maybe she didn't. Even if she did, she wasn't obliged to return his (or anyone else's) feelings. Unrequited love hurts, yes, but loving somebody doesn't entitle one to have their feelings returned. Lily was a free agent, she was free to love whom she chose.

What I will say is this: they are still children. They still make mistakes. I don't see this as being about 'Lily wanting to survive', but about Lily letting go of a close childhood friend, letting go of her childhood, almost. If she had been able to forgive Severus for calling her a 'mudblood', would that have been enough for Snape to realise that she wasn't worth losing? Would he have 'seen the light' years earlier than he eventually did? Would he have given it all up, there and then, for her? It is a pivotal moment for Snape; and I believe more so than for Lily, because this final dismissal was possibly the catalyst for Snape to give in to the stereotype and become a Death Eater.

I don't think Lily, or any other character, is responsible for decisions made by somebody else. Lily had a responsibility to herself -her safety and self-respect. She wasn't responsible for someone else's mistakes, imo.

I don't think Lily, or any other character, is responsible for decisions made by somebody else. Lily had a responsibility to herself -her safety and self-respect. She wasn't responsible for someone else's mistakes, imo.

I agree. Plus Lily tried to stop Snape from going down the wrong path. If he valued their friendship which was more of a friendship than his with Mulciber or Avery's then he would have listened. She was responsible for what he did and since she couldn't stop him, she left him.

I'm sorry, I can't see a proof that Lily actually saw a foreshadowing of her death when dismissing Snape's friendship. Actually, Snape wasn't a Death Eater. She decided to stop this friendship. She had her reasons. But we don't really know what she knew doing that.

Eliza can correct me on this, but I think she was referring to the fact that Lily saw how her life, or well being, was in danger for being a muggleborn. And being friends with someone who hung around and approved of people who though muggles/muggleborns were inferior can make you feel even more unsafe. Given the tensions and upcoming war in Lily and Snape's time, I think its fair to say she had every reason to worry about her well being.

Maybe Lily knew, maybe she didn't. Even if she did, she wasn't obliged to return his (or anyone else's) feelings. Unrequited love hurts, yes, but loving somebody doesn't entitle one to have their feelings returned. Lily was a free agent, she was free to love whom she chose.

I don't think Lily, or any other character, is responsible for decisions made by somebody else. Lily had a responsibility to herself -her safety and self-respect. She wasn't responsible for someone else's mistakes, imo.

I agree, very much so. :clap:

On a slightly different note, I wonder if Lily's estrangement from Petunia was a factor in her trying so hard to keep her friendship with Severus going? Perhaps she didn't want to lose him, too.

Eliza can correct me on this, but I think she was referring to the fact that Lily saw how her life, or well being, was in danger for being a muggleborn. And being friends with someone who hung around and approved of people who though muggles/muggleborns were inferior can make you feel even more unsafe. Given the tensions and upcoming war in Lily and Snape's time, I think its fair to say she had every reason to worry about her well being.

And I agree with this, too. Lily objected to blanket bigotry against Muggleborns. Lily had heard of Death Eaters. Lily was afraid to say Voldemort's name. This took place during the first war. For me that is plenty of evidence that she was not insulated against the war or ignorant of the dangers ahead.

Eliza can correct me on this, but I think she was referring to the fact that Lily saw how her life, or well being, was in danger for being a muggleborn. And being friends with someone who hung around and approved of people who though muggles/muggleborns were inferior can make you feel even more unsafe. Given the tensions and upcoming war in Lily and Snape's time, I think its fair to say she had every reason to worry about her well being.

Another aspect that might have weighed heavy on Lily's mind is the knowledge her family are non-magical. I imagine she would have been exposed to the varying degrees of wizarding attitudes toward Muggles, and especially the possible growing danger that might be posed to them from a certain quarter of wizarding society. I don't know when the Evans' died, but if alive, I'm sure their welfare would also have been very important to Lily. As well as her sister, even if their relationship was very strained, I don't think she would wish any harm to befall her. Imo.

On a slightly different note, I wonder if Lily's estrangement from Petunia was a factor in her trying so hard to keep her friendship with Severus going? Perhaps she didn't want to lose him, too.

I hadn't thought of that - but it makes sense, as part of the reason Lily wanted to hold onto her childhood friend, despite her reservations about the dangerous friends he had.

And I agree with this, too. Lily objected to blanket bigotry against Muggleborns. Lily had heard of Death Eaters. Lily was afraid to say Voldemort's name. This took place during the first war. For me that is plenty of evidence that she was not insulated against the war or ignorant of the dangers ahead.

True -she likely knew what was going on - just as the Trio did in HBP, from disturbing newspaper reports. By the time Lily was in her fifth year, aged 15/16, the war had been ongoing for about six years (as people had been living in fear for eleven years by the time the war ended). She knew what was happening to people of her birth, purely because they were "Mudbloods". When she left school, she joined the Order, to combat this horrific threat. While she was still in school, however, there was little she could do, except stand up and be counted -stand up for herself and refuse to accept bigotry and prejudice.

Another aspect that might have weighed heavy on Lily's mind is the knowledge her family are non-magical. I imagine she would have been exposed to the varying degrees of wizarding attitudes toward Muggles, and especially the possible growing danger that might be posed to them from a certain quarter of wizarding society. I don't know when the Evans' died, but if alive, I'm sure their welfare would also have been important to Lily. As well as her sister, even if their relationship was very strained, I don't think she would wish any harm to befall her. Imo.

Her concern for her family probably played a part - DEs didn't take kindly to Muggles, any more than they did to Muggleborns, and they were killing Muggles for fun. That was likely a big worry for her, as it was for Hermione.

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

Once she realized he wasn't insulting her by calling her a witch, I think his friendship was very important to her. He showed her that she wasn't a "freak" and that there was nothing wrong with her having the powers that she had.

I imagine it was quite a comfort when setting off for Hogwarts for the first time to have a friend along who was more familiar with the Wizarding World than she was. I always thought one of the reasons Hermoine was such an "overachiever" was because she felt she had to be as good as, if not better than, those born into families with at least one wizarding parent. Since she had no one to help allay her fears, she overcompensated by cramming on all the knowledge of the WW she could. I really felt sorry for her, because that must have been very lonely.

I think Severus' friendship helped Lily avoid this. I think it was a huge support for her.


Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

I think Petunia's jealousy of Lily's abilities and her embarassment at being caught trying to beg her way into Hogwarts was a lot to overcome. From what we are told about Lily, I can see her as trying to mend the rift between them. From what we actually see of Petunia, I don't think she'd planted her feet and wasn't going to budge. The vase Lily talks about in her letter from Petunia, I took to probably be a wedding gift. It would have been a social faux pas for her not to have sent anything. So, she sent a really ugly vase. Something that was probably useless, but which would haunt Lily by its presence.

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

I think she was generally well liked, but, as we see with most of the Houses, I would say she probably gravitated to the Gryffindors, mostly. That seems to be the norm, for the Housemates to stick together.

Severus was probably one of the few close friends she had outside of Gryffindor.


According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

That she was a loyal friend who did not let the criticism of others affect the way she ran her life. He would probably have been unattractive to most of Lily's Gryffindor friends, if not all of them. He was from a poor family, he was unkempt, he was nerdy, and he was a Slytherin. She heard rumors of his dabbling in the Dark Arts and wanting to become a DE. In spite of that, she still maintains her friendship with him for quite a while.


Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

This is a really difficult part to understand. Hearing of how kind and loyal a friend she was, a model student well liked by all of her teachers and friends (we hear this directly from Hagrid, Lupin, Dumbledore, and Slughorn), it seems out of character for her to have just cut Severus off when he was obviously sorry and had sat outside the Gryffindor entrance until she came out to talk to him. Then he used the term "I won't let you...." she never gave him a chance to finish what he was going to say. I could speculate, but, it would only be that. But, it seemed that what she took as possessiveness was as much the final straw as the "Mudblood" insult.

Maybe she was just tired of defending him and wanted to end the friendship and this was a good time to do so. Maybe it was peer pressure to get away from him. Maybe she was starting to feel something for James and, even unknowingly, was distancing herself from Severus. It could be any or a bit of all of the above. I really don't think we have enough information about who was pressuring her, what all was being said, what the actual incident with Mary McDonald was, etc., to know what really and truly made her cut him off as a friend at that point.

I don't think they would have ever rekindled their friendship later. Too many changes that would have affected their relationship, the main one being she was married to his arch nemesis.

The vase Lily talks about in her letter from Petunia, I took to probably be a wedding gift. It would have been a social faux pas for her not to have sent anything. So, she sent a really ugly vase. Something that was probably useless, but which would haunt Lily by its presence.

I really liked that idea, but according to Lily's letter in DH it was a Christmas present. It's something I can see Petunia doing, though. Perhaps she had received Lily's Christmas present, and not to be outdone, dashed out and sent something off, too. Or perhaps she just has bad taste in décor. :lol:

This is a really difficult part to understand. Hearing of how kind and loyal a friend she was, a model student well liked by all of her teachers and friends (we hear this directly from Hagrid, Lupin, Dumbledore, and Slughorn), it seems out of character for her to have just cut Severus off when he was obviously sorry and had sat outside the Gryffindor entrance until she came out to talk to him. Then he used the term "I won't let you...." she never gave him a chance to finish what he was going to say. I could speculate, but, it would only be that. But, it seemed that what she took as possessiveness was as much the final straw as the "Mudblood" insult.

Maybe she was just tired of defending him and wanted to end the friendship and this was a good time to do so. Maybe it was peer pressure to get away from him. Maybe she was starting to feel something for James and, even unknowingly, was distancing herself from Severus. It could be any or a bit of all of the above. I really don't think we have enough information about who was pressuring her, what all was being said, what the actual incident with Mary McDonald was, etc., to know what really and truly made her cut him off as a friend at that point.

Her reasons seem fairly clear to me. I think it was a lot to do with self-respect, her own safety and her own values. Snape's values and her own were at odds, as exemplified by that racist slur. Also, whatever it seems like to the reader, from Lily's point of view, Snape had shown that he didn't respect her, didn't consider her an equal. That is what the term Mudblood means - it's used by people who are truly bigoted in the series(people like the Malfoys, Bellatrix, other DEs, Umbridge). Yes, there is a lot of prejudice in the wizarding world, but that term is the very worst of it. For example, Slughorn, who is prejudiced in that he is surprised that a Muggleborn could be so talented, never uses that word. Readers, who know that Snape loved Lily may say differently, but from Lily's perspective, this was a friend who considered her inferior. She had every right not to want that kind of friendship any longer. Also, she knew that his other friends held similar views -and she wasn't going to be anybody's token "Mudblood". She had firmly decided that she was against that prejudice, against Voldemort.

I don't think they would have ever rekindled their friendship later. Too many changes that would have affected their relationship, the main one being she was married to his arch nemesis.

I think his DE loyalties would have been a stumbling block, from Lily's point of view, even if it had been after he turned against Voldemort. I think she would have found it very hard to trust him after that.

I really liked that idea, but according to Lily's letter in DH it was a Christmas present. It's something I can see Petunia doing, though. Perhaps she had received Lily's Christmas present, and not to be outdone, dashed out and sent something off, too. Or perhaps she just has bad taste in décor. :lol:

:lol: Yes, probably it's a case of bad taste. I like the idea of Lily sending her something first. Maybe Lily was still trying to keep some contact with her sister, despite all the bitterness Petunia was showing? In PS/SS we read that Petunia knew about Harry before he landed on her doorstep. So there probably were letters (and sometimes awful gifts) sent and received.

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

I think this give her a huge confidence boost; Snape gave her lots of valuable information regarding the Wizarding World, so when Lily arrived at Hogwarts, she practically knew as just as much, if not more so, information about the great school than most wizards and witches.

Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

Most likely. Though, I think it would be extremely difficult for Lily to get through to her, as we've witnessed how stubborn her elder sister was to her. I'm sure Lily would've tried desperately to rekindle her bond with Petunia, probably frequently writing lengthy letters about everything that was happening in her life.

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

From what I can gather, many members on this site assume her to be extremely popular, charming, vivacious, talkative, friendly...the list goes on. I believe in her having all of this personality traits, so she probably had a great deal of friends in Hogwarts, from various Houses. In my opinion, being friends with Snape, a resident of Slytherin, made sure that she was almost completely against all prejudices and stereotypes exisiting between the Houses. However, Snape, due to his association with future Death Eaters and the Dark Arts, would possibly limit some friendships that Lily could have formed.

According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

Her friends were probably very nice people, who only had Lily's best interests at heart. They were merely not as non judgemental as she was, so while Lily could still see the good within Snape, all they saw was the negative points. Dumbledore repeats this idea in Deathly Hallows, and although it's directed at Severus, the moral concerns all characters:

You see what you expect to see.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

Snape had probably does countless things which made Lily strongly doubt their friendship with each other. This is echoed in Deathly Hallows, when one of Snape's "friends" performs unspecified Dark Magic on Mary MacDonald.

Lily would never want to be with someone who was following in the footsteps of Voldemort. But, nevertheless, she persevered with Snape, until he called her a Mudblood.

Why? In my opinion, this stems back to when they were children. Lily voices her worries to Snape, she is concerned that being a Muggleborn makes her different. But Snape replies:

No, it doesn't make any difference.

But Snape broke that promise he made to her years ago. He called her the "unforgiveable word." This probably hurt her much more deeply than what the books suggest. I guess she thought that if Snape talked about/to her in a judgemental, cruel way, if he was able to call his childhood friend a Mudblood, only then would she know that he was far too into the Death Eater ways.

If she lived, however, I think, over a long period of time, she would have forgiven him completely. The loss of his friendship probably affected her greatly, and I'm sure she'd want a good oppurtunity to repair their broken bond.

So, in my opinion, Lily was an extremely kind, thoughtful person with a stongwilled personality, always trying to see the best in others.

I think her friends would be blowing Snape's character out of proportion, possibly going as far to say that he was pure evil, he was always not to be trusted, he was a Death Eater as soon as he stepped into Hogwarts...this is just what I think would've happened, though.
I don't think it would have been that complicated, because it needed not be. Snape did something that completely disrespected her. Considering the state of things back then concerning muggles and muggleborns, we all know it was pretty serious and why. I think that's enough reason for her friends to encourage her not to be around him anymore.

But I think it's a fair assumption that Lily would have came to ending the friendship anyway on her own. She's shown ever since she was little that she didn't take disrespect from anyone, even from her sister whom she cared a lot about. And given the attitude towards muggleborns and the early recruits of DE's, it wasn't just disrespect that made her end her friendship with Snape

I've always wondered- when Lily asked Snape "why" she was different from the other Muggle-borns, did she know what made her different? We know that Lily was intelligent, and her and "Sev" had been friends for a very long time. Perhaps she knew that Snape had a crush on her? Even Harry, who can sometimes be insensitive to others' feelings, knew what was going on between Ron and Hermione in HBP, even know they never actually said it.

If that was the case, then I think that Lily showed even more just how much she hated prejudice-therefore, showing how far she would eventually go in the War Against Voldemort. Turning her back on a friend that she'd had for years, turning her back on a possible romantic relationship-that's tough.

I've always wondered- when Lily asked Snape "why" she was different from the other Muggle-borns, did she know what made her different? We know that Lily was intelligent, and her and "Sev" had been friends for a very long time. Perhaps she knew that Snape had a crush on her? Even Harry, who can sometimes be insensitive to others' feelings, knew what was going on between Ron and Hermione in HBP, even know they never actually said it.

Maybe she did know. Or maybe Snape was careful not to make it too obvious to her, maybe he wasn't sure how to tell her, whereas Ron and Hermione were pretty obvious to others. Plus, Harry was aware, but Ron and Hermione didn't seem to figure out for a long time what they felt, and it took even longer to realise their feelings were reciprocated.
Or maybe Lily didn't know how to respond, if she was aware of his feelings for her.

If that was the case, then I think that Lily showed even more just how much she hated prejudice-therefore, showing how far she would eventually go in the War Against Voldemort. Turning her back on a friend that she'd had for years, turning her back on a possible romantic relationship-that's tough.

I think she was choosing her priorities - thinking of what was right and wrong. She knew where she stood in the war, and it seemed like Snape was showing where he stood too. It was not good enough to say Lily was different because he loved her, that would be completely disrespectful and I can't see someone as strong and as strong-willed as Lily being willing to accept being an exception for the sake of having a romantic relationship. It probably hurt her to end a long standing friendship, but I think perhaps she'd seen that this angry young man was not the same Severus Snape she'd befriended when they were children.

Maybe she did know. Or maybe Snape was careful not to make it too obvious to her, maybe he wasn't sure how to tell her, whereas Ron and Hermione were pretty obvious to others. Plus, Harry was aware, but Ron and Hermione didn't seem to figure out for a long time what they felt, and it took even longer to realise their feelings were reciprocated.
Or maybe Lily didn't know how to respond, if she was aware of his feelings for her.

Perhaps! I suppose we shall never know....:relax:


I think she was choosing her priorities - thinking of what was right and wrong. She knew where she stood in the war, and it seemed like Snape was showing where he stood too. It was not good enough to say Lily was different because he loved her, that would be completely disrespectful and I can't see someone as strong and as strong-willed as Lily being willing to accept being an exception for the sake of having a romantic relationship. It probably hurt her to end a long standing friendship, but I think perhaps she'd seen that this angry young man was not the same Severus Snape she'd befriended when they were children.

I agree with you. I still think that that particular scene was a defining moment in her life- she was choosing to leave her "comfort zone" (and maybe I'm jumping to conclusions here, but I consider my friends to be comfort zones, so I imagine that she felt the same way.) for what she believed was right.

I think Lily was quite aware Severus had a crush on her, and I don't really think he would have saved their friendship by admitting "what makes her so different." Because to answer that question would just be saying, "Yes, I call muggleborns "Mudbloods" and hang out with Voldemort's supporters, but I love YOU." I can't see Lily wanting that or considering it "enough."

She was frustrated because he wouldn't even deny that his friends wanted to be DEs. What Snape needed to say was that he didn't support killing muggle borns, that he didn't want to get involved with Voldemort, and that he knew his friends were wrong to call people Mudbloods. He didn't say any of that. He didn't admit his feelings either, but I just can't see that making a difference. She was well aware of James' feelings for her and wouldn't be with him until he changed, and the same went for Snape.

Well this topic rose in another thread, I was searching for a Snape-Lily thread, but it seems there isn't, so I will post it here:

Do you consider Snape-Lily friendship to resemble somehow that one of James-Sirius? they repeat to be "best friends" more than once, and after Lilys death Snape continued fighting for what she fought. Of course I know here love was involved form Severus, but from the part of Lily, maybe the frienship she shared with Snape was something really strong? something that must have been hard to cut?
Or was it a normal frienship that with the time passing turned out to fade and not be what it was expected to be?

I personally think that Sev-Lily must have had a similar bond to James-Sirius, and that even she "broke" their frienship, the deep bond and caring was always present, something like from time to time she wondered what was Sev doing and if he will ever return to the good side.

Snape was Lily's best friend but he hated James which made her start to not like him and then he became a Death Eater killing their chances of love

Snape was Lily's best friend but he hated James which made her start to not like him and then he became a Death Eater killing their chances of love

Lily didn't stop liking Snape because he hated James. She didn't like James either. She stopped being friends with Snape because she was insulted by Snape and she believed that he was going to join an organization that targeted people of her status. James had nothing to do with it.

Well this topic rose in another thread, I was searching for a Snape-Lily thread, but it seems there isn't

We used to have one but since no one ever used it and all discussion of the Lily/Snape friendship went into the Snape thread, we closed and archived it. :)

We used to have one but since no one ever used it and all discussion of the Lily/Snape friendship went into the Snape thread, we closed and archived it. :)

I thought it was possible to discuss the friendship here as long as it is done so from Lily's point of view. Which thread to use would depend on which angle one wished to explore, right? :hmm:

So, what's your oppinion? do you believe it was similar to James-Sirius or a different thing.

So, what's your oppinion? do you believe it was similar to James-Sirius or a different thing.

To be honest, I don't think it was. I always felt James and Sirius's bond went beyond regular friendship, they were more like brothers. I see them as the Fred and George of the Marauder-era. James' death hit Sirius so hard he practically went mad.

Lily and Snape's friendship was doomed pretty early on. Petunia and Snape weren't nice to each other and this caused tension for Lily because she really cared for her sister. Snape also made a couple of remarks that sounded to me like he felt Petunia was inferior for being a Muggle (this could stem from his Muggle father's abusive behaviour.)

Later on, there was the obvious problem with them being in two houses with a rivalry, so they wouldn't see each other nearly as much as the people in their own houses. Snape started hanging out with future Death Eaters and showed signs of wanting to be one himself, and that was obviously the biggest issue. How could Lily stay friends with someone who wanted to help Voldemort eradicate people like her and her family? But even if it weren't for the Death Eaters, I think their friendship would have gone downhill anyways. Snape supposedly knew more hexes and curses than the 7th year students when he was only a first year. He invented Sectumsempra which I cannot find a good, harmless use for, and it's clearly dark magic. I don't think Lily would have stood for all of this and eventually it would have broken down, even without the "mudblood" incident. That was just the last straw.

So no, I don't think they had a friendship nearly as strong as James and Sirius. James and Sirius weren't always perfectly in line with each other, as was seen with the Whomping Willow prank on Snape, but their friendship never faltered and everyone else could tell they were inseparable.

To be honest, I don't think it was. I always felt James and Sirius's bond went beyond regular friendship, they were more like brothers. I see them as the Fred and George of the Marauder-era. James' death hit Sirius so hard he practically went mad.

Lily and Snape's friendship was doomed pretty early on. Petunia and Snape weren't nice to each other and this caused tension for Lily because she really cared for her sister. Snape also made a couple of remarks that sounded to me like he felt Petunia was inferior for being a Muggle (this could stem from his Muggle father's abusive behaviour.)

Later on, there was the obvious problem with them being in two houses with a rivalry, so they wouldn't see each other nearly as much as the people in their own houses. Snape started hanging out with future Death Eaters and showed signs of wanting to be one himself, and that was obviously the biggest issue. How could Lily stay friends with someone who wanted to help Voldemort eradicate people like her and her family? But even if it weren't for the Death Eaters, I think their friendship would have gone downhill anyways. Snape supposedly knew more hexes and curses than the 7th year students when he was only a first year. He invented Sectumsempra which I cannot find a good, harmless use for, and it's clearly dark magic. I don't think Lily would have stood for all of this and eventually it would have broken down, even without the "mudblood" incident. That was just the last straw.

So no, I don't think they had a friendship nearly as strong as James and Sirius. James and Sirius weren't always perfectly in line with each other, as was seen with the Whomping Willow prank on Snape, but their friendship never faltered and everyone else could tell they were inseparable.

All you say about so much tension put uppon Severus-Lily relationship is true, that is why I believe, that deep inside they must have shared a very strong bond, because I cannot see any normal frienship standing all of that for more than 5 years, wich was what their frienship lasted.

All you say about so much tension put uppon Severus-Lily relationship is true, that is why I believe, that deep inside they must have shared a very strong bond, because I cannot see any normal frienship standing all of that for more than 5 years, wich was what their frienship lasted.

They had a strong bond, no doubt, just not as strong as James and Sirius.
James and Sirius would have been a lot closer considering that they spent most of their time together.

And here is another topic.

Do you believe that Lily felt romantically interested in Snape any time?

My personal view is that during the pre-adolescence, around 13 years old or so, the bond between those two must have been very strong and when romantic interests arised in Lily, probably they were leaded towards Severus. But being so young and innocent she never demostrated them, or at least, not in a way Severus, who was also insecure himself could understand.

And here is another topic.

Do you believe that Lily felt romantically interested in Snape any time?

My personal view is that during the pre-adolescence, around 13 years old or so, the bond between those two must have been very strong and when romantic interests arised in Lily, probably they were leaded towards Severus. But being so young and innocent she never demostrated them, or at least, not in a way Severus, who was also insecure himself could understand.

It is possible that Lily could have had some sort of early romantic feelings towards Snape when they were young. If she had a "first crush", especially before Hogwarts/meeting James and Sirius, it would have been on Snape....but nothing would have ever formed from it. Lily's love to Snape was definitely more in a friendship sense than Snape's feelings were towards Lily.

That wasn't ever in canon, that's speculation.

Personally I don't think she did, I think she saw him as her platonic best friend, which is all we're given from canon. I think by the time she heard about the werewolf prank she started (or already had) a crush on James; there's a mention of her blushing when Snape stares her down after she defends James. In SWM, she seemed to know all of James' habits and movements as if she watched him more than she'd let on. And JK Rowling sort of implied it when she said "Did she really [hate him]? You're a woman, you know what I'm saying. [Laughter]" in the Emerson/Melissa interview.

And then Rowling says in another interview: "She might have even grown to love [Snape] romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathsome people and acts." (Rowling Bloomsburry Webchat in 2007).

So Jo clearly didn't intend for Lily to ever have had romantic feelings for him, thought she left it open that she could have--had circumstances been very different.

Personally I don't think she did, I think she saw him as her platonic best friend, which is all we're given from canon.

I agree. I don't think Lily saw Snape in a romantic light. Though, I do think, that she knew he was having feelings for her (the intense look and blush). I think she loved him, as a friend.

I agree. I don't think Lily saw Snape in a romantic light. Though, I do think, that she knew he was having feelings for her (the intense look and blush). I think she loved him, as a friend.
Yeah. I can see her knowing he had feelings for her (he did get a little obvious now and then :lol:). If so, I wonder if she decided to ignore it/push it to the back of her mind to keep things simple. It can get very awkward between friends when only one is romantically interested in the other.

But, maybe she had no clue about his feelings for her. She didn't seem to be at all uncomfortable or awkward around him.

Yeah. I can see her knowing he had feelings for her (he did get a little obvious now and then :lol:). If so, I wonder if she decided to ignore it/push it to the back of her mind to keep things simple. It can get very awkward between friends when only one is romantically interested in the other.

I think if she did know, it was pretty late in their friendship and she probably would decide to ignore it. I don't think she would acknowledge it unless she felt the same way.

But, maybe she had no clue about his feelings for her. She didn't seem to be at all uncomfortable or awkward around him.

This is possible too; though I understood the intense look and blush to mean Lily's awareness of Snape's feeling for her. But since he never came out to say anything (at least not in canon) I guess, Lily could just as easily misinterpret the intense looks.

I think if she did know, it was pretty late in their friendship and she probably would decide to ignore it. I don't think she would acknowledge it unless she felt the same way.

I don't think she would either. I can see why she wouldn't say anything if she didn't feel the same way. It makes a friendship awkward if it's out there in the open that one person feels more than friendship and the other doesn't. And it would be very arrogant, as well as unusual, to tell someone"I know you like me as more than a friend, but I don't feel the same way about you.", without them bringing it up first. Not to mention it would be very embarrassing for both parties.

That wasn't ever in canon, that's speculation.

And JK Rowling sort of implied it when she said "Did she really [hate him]? You're a woman, you know what I'm saying. [Laughter]" in the Emerson/Melissa interview.

And then Rowling says in another interview: "She might have even grown to love [Snape] romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathsome people and acts." (Rowling Bloomsburry Webchat in 2007).

.

Yeah, that's why I thought she could have felt more than frienship for some period, I understood JK's words as impliying that there is a possibility that Lily felt something because if she could feel it in the future had things been very different, why not in the past? when things where not dark or complicated?.
I mean: there was nothing in the "pure" Severus that disgusted her not to be able to love him, not his nose, his poorness or his greasy hair; it was later "adittions" that set her appart.

Plus the fact that when they are talking sitting in the shadow before they start Hogwarts, Snape is regarded as "quite impressive" and I believe "impressive" is not exactly a common word to use to a friend.

Because of those two reasons I think it is cannon to wonder.

By the way, I also think that for the time they were discussing about the werwolf incident, Lily had started fancying James, only she was probably not aware even to herself.

Lily is flawed like everyone else, but the whole crticizing her over ending her friendship with Snape is one thing that drives me nuts!!

Snape didn't call her just one thing, he called her the worst thing possible. It's established in COS that Mudblood is the worst thing to call a Muggle-born, and it's emphasized all though the books. It's like calling a Black friend the N word or any racial slur. It's crossing a line. Snape claims to have valued Lily's friendship but he clearly chose his death eater friends over Lily, he thought he could have both. I don't hate Snape but come on, he doesn't get a free pass and he is not the total victim. Friendship has boundaries, and when they're crossed, you need to draw a line. That is exactly what Lily did. Snape was already an aspiring Death Eater by that time

James was arrogant, but not a bad person, just a spoiled, cocky teen. He grew up, and he showed he did care about Lily

I don't know if they could ever be friends, he was so bitter, he couldn't really see his own role in losing Lily, and she wouldn't like how he treated others.

James was arrogant, but not a bad person, just a spoiled, cocky teen. He grew up, and he showed he did care about Lily.

In my opinion, they all grew up. Snape just took a few years more than James. He didn't remain the person who called Lily a mudblood;he stopped being one when he was around 20 years old and turned his life around. I think Snape and James both showed they care for Lily very much.

and she wouldn't like how he treated others.
Definitely agree. Lily was a kind person who, I'd imagine, had a high capacity for forgiveness and seeing the best in people. But I think she'd find his treatment of his students pretty despicable.

Yeah, that's why I thought she could have felt more than frienship for some period, I understood JK's words as impliying that there is a possibility that Lily felt something because if she could feel it in the future had things been very different, why not in the past? when things where not dark or complicated?.
I personally took her words to mean that no, Lily never did feel attracted to him that way, but it wouldn't have been out of the question had he not been into the dark arts and interested in becoming a Death Eater. But that was, unfortunately, a big part of who he was growing up so I can't personally imagine a scenario like that.

I mean: there was nothing in the "pure" Severus that disgusted her not to be able to love him, not his nose, his poorness or his greasy hair; it was later "adittions" that set her appart.

Fancying someone and being disgusted by them aren't the only two options. I don't fancy my male friends, and it's certainly not because they disgust me, it's because we're just friends. In my opinion, Lily cared a lot for Snape, as a friend only. There is nothing wrong in caring for someone as a friend only, and it doesn't imply you find fault with them.

Plus the fact that when they are talking sitting in the shadow before they start Hogwarts, Snape is regarded as "quite impressive" and I believe "impressive" is not exactly a common word to use to a friend.

That description comes from Harry's observations, not Lily's words.

Definitely agree. Lily was a kind person who, I'd imagine, had a high capacity for forgiveness and seeing the best in people. But I think she'd find his treatment of his students pretty despicable.

I think so, bullying wasn't something she seemed to accept.

I personally took her words to mean that no, Lily never did feel attracted to him that way, but it wouldn't have been out of the question had he not been into the dark arts and interested in becoming a Death Eater. But that was, unfortunately, a big part of who he was growing up so I can't personally imagine a scenario like that.

That's what I took it to mean as well. Lily might have reciprocated his feelings, sometime down the line, if he hadn't been drawn to the Dark Arts and Voldemort.

Yeah, that's why I thought she could have felt more than frienship for some period, I understood JK's words as impliying that there is a possibility that Lily felt something because if she could feel it in the future had things been very different, why not in the past? when things where not dark or complicated?.

I also interpreted it that Lily didn't fancy him ever but could have if things had gone differently. However, I'd also like to add that it probably started to get complicated once they both started Hogwarts. She says that she had been defending him "for years" from her friends. Maybe he accidentally revealed early on his interest in the Dark Arts and pureblood supremacy?

But, of course, this is all up for interpretation because it's not very clear in canon. :)

I mean: there was nothing in the "pure" Severus that disgusted her not to be able to love him, not his nose, his poorness or his greasy hair; it was later "adittions" that set her appart.

Of course! Lily wouldn't have let his appearance make a difference in their friendship, IMO; she was able to see beyond that.

Plus the fact that when they are talking sitting in the shadow before they start Hogwarts, Snape is regarded as "quite impressive" and I believe "impressive" is not exactly a common word to use to a friend.

Hm . . . I just merely assumed that meant that he was "impressive" because he was the one who was revealing this other world to her, resulting in him feeling important. But, again, this is not really something you can argue!

Lily is flawed like everyone else, but the whole crticizing her over ending her friendship with Snape is one thing that drives me nuts!!

Snape didn't call her just one thing, he called her the worst thing possible. It's established in COS that Mudblood is the worst thing to call a Muggle-born, and it's emphasized all though the books. It's like calling a Black friend the N word or any racial slur. It's crossing a line. Snape claims to have valued Lily's friendship but he clearly chose his death eater friends over Lily, he thought he could have both. I don't hate Snape but come on, he doesn't get a free pass and he is not the total victim. Friendship has boundaries, and when they're crossed, you need to draw a line. That is exactly what Lily did. Snape was already an aspiring Death Eater by that time

I agree with this entirely. I can't honestly imagine why Lily, who later become one of the most devoted members of the Order of the Phoenix, would continue to associate with someone who was fascinated with everything she was against. Snape felt guilty about calling her a Mudblood but, as she pointed out, she was just an exception because he called other Muggleborns that.

Snape called all Muggleborns "Mudblood", so he did believe that Pureblood supremacy. He didn't see Lily's problem with Mulciber and Avery, calling what Mulciber did "A laugh". I really don't think Lily had another choice. James overall showed he was the better man. She saw her friend had changed and was no longer the "Sev" she knew, and for years stayed with him, calling her "Mudblood" opened her eyes, and her best friend believed people like her were inferior and common. He was into dark arts. Taht was something she couldn't stay with. James didn't steal Lily from Snape, Snape lost her.

Did Snape really care about Lily? He didn't seem to care that James and Harry died, as long as Lily lived. That's pretty twisted. Almost like a desire. Snape changed but too little too late. What would Lily say about that if she knew Snape wanted her to live, but didn't give much thought about the people she loved and was cruel to her son, just b/c he was James Potter's son? OR how he treated Neville? She'd be angry with him.

James overall showed he was the better man.
By dangling him up in the air because he was different? Because he was a Slytherin and by James's standards, unattractive? I never saw James as the better man. He, admirably, preaches tolerance, but, not so admirably, does not always practice it.


Did Snape really care about Lily? He didn't seem to care that James and Harry died, as long as Lily lived.
Everybody has flaws: Snape's biggest were selfishness and over-ambition. But he changed. The whole message of the series is love, not obsession or jealousy. It's about tolerance and redemption. JKR sends the message that people can, and do, change, and are often worthy of redemption. I personally feel that Snape proved himself when he put his life on the line for a boy he despised, all because of Lily.
Snape lost her.
You don't just lose a person like you lose car keys. It was much more complicated than that.
Almost like a desire.
Of course it's desire. But were Snape's sacrifices, after Lily's death, done out of desire? It's not even possible! It wasn't like Lily could dump James and go running into his arms. She was dead. Please tell me if I'm misinterpreting your post, but it seems like you're suggesting Snape's feelings for Lily were really about physical desire. But Snape died to protect her son, in her name, so that he would be redeemed in her eyes, even if he would never see them again. People don't die for desire. People die for love.

By dangling him up in the air because he was different? Because he was a Slytherin and by James's standards, unattractive? I never saw James as the better man. He, admirably, preaches tolerance, but, not so admirably, does not always practice it.

Let me clarify, I mean overall. James matured out of his arrogance and bullying and he changed for the better and showed he did deserve Lily. No denying he was a bully as a teens, as are many. Doesn't make what he did OK, but James wasn't a horrible person. He was willing to fight for what he believed, and was brave. Oh, and Snape doesn't practice what he preaches, he claims Harry wasn't above the rules, but he ignored it when Malfoy did things that were far worse.


I don't see Snape's feeling as being healthy, since he seemed to have her a on a pedestal, he didn't seem to care about James or Harry, as long as she lived, and Lily wouldn't like that. Again, Snape isn't the misunderstood victim, he made some wrong choices which cost him Lily, but yes, he did change for the better in terms of loyalty. But Lily knew she couldn't remain friends with Snape. Snape's flaws pushed him down the wrong path, sadly. I just can't find a lot of sympathy because he was so bitter, he took it out on Lily's son, who had done nothing, I don't hate him though, either.

Ahem, back to Lily

Snape called all Muggleborns "Mudblood", so he did believe that Pureblood supremacy. He didn't see Lily's problem with Mulciber and Avery, calling what Mulciber did "A laugh". I really don't think Lily had another choice. James overall showed he was the better man. She saw her friend had changed and was no longer the "Sev" she knew, and for years stayed with him, calling her "Mudblood" opened her eyes, and her best friend believed people like her were inferior and common. He was into dark arts. Taht was something she couldn't stay with. James didn't steal Lily from Snape, Snape lost her.
Did Snape really care about Lily? He didn't seem to care that James and Harry died, as long as Lily lived. That's pretty twisted. Almost like a desire. Snape changed but too little too late. What would Lily say about that if she knew Snape wanted her to live, but didn't give much thought about the people she loved and was cruel to her son, just b/c he was James Potter's son? OR how he treated Neville? She'd be angry with him.

I totally agree with the Bolt sentence, it was Snape who lost her, he thought he was winning her, however he was actually loosing Lily. His natural ambition (wich I don't believe is bad itself) was tainted with Slytherin-DE cruelty, and blinded by the new ideology. Creed, that he seem to appreciate more than what he appreciated Lily in those times, and I don't find strange to think that teenanger Snape was somehow "cocky" or as much as "cocky" as an isolated boy can be in those times, and somehow he become to regard himself as a reward and price for Lily (like she should be grateful to have his friendship).

I don't believe Lily would have approved of his treatment of Neville and Harry, however I also think Severus would not have behaved like that if he still had Lily's frienship and influence.

My point was that had he not followed the dark path she could have loved him (but then it would have been a totally different story). and about if she ever felt something for him before he started his dark ways we have not enough evidence to know.


However I think that this cocky attitude was only in his dark times as a teenanger, later he matured and truly loved Lily in a unselfish way.

And James matured sooner and in a better way (because his life was easier than Snape's, yes) but he became a better choice for Lily. Snape had so many scars, and at young age I think he would have tried to cure them on Lily's cost, it was later when he became noble as he used to be as young when he understood lack of selfishness and thus won Dumbledores affection.

Please be aware that the Lily, James and Snape love triangle should not be discussed here.

Please be aware that the Lily, James and Snape love triangle should not be discussed here.

Ahem, I'll try to avoid it.

Ambition itself is not bad, and Slytherins themselves aren't all bad. Lily couldn't stay with Snape because his own ambition had over run everything else, so in that way, he lost her. Lily didn't want to be the sole exception to the Mudblood rule.


I don't believe Lily would have approved of his treatment of Neville and Harry, however I also think Severus would not have behaved like that if he still had Lily's frienship and influence.

Can you clarify


And James matured sooner and in a better way (because his life was easier than Snape's, yes) but he became a better choice for Lily. Snape had so many scars, and at young age I think he would have tried to cure them on Lily's cost, it was later when he became noble as he used to be as young when he understood lack of selfishness and thus won Dumbledores affection.

Totally agreed, overall James was better for Lily and deserved her. Lily wanted someone who would love her for her, and James did.

showed he did deserve Lily.
When?

Totally agreed, overall James was better for Lily and deserved her. Lily wanted someone who would love her for her, and James did.
We should get back to Lily, we've gotten very off-topic. *guilty* Sorry, Hes....

I don't think it makes much sense to say Sev 'lost Lily'--we're supposed to be discussing her character, and therefore, her desicions. She decided to end her friendship with Snape. Both of them must take responsibility for their actions. Both of them wronged each other--after all, wasn't she giving him a hard time about his friends? I'm sorry--but I can't believe people accept this. She had no right to try and control who his friends were. She didn't own him. Why hasn't anyone realized this? :hmm:

I don't think it makes much sense to say Sev 'lost Lily'--we're supposed to be discussing her character, and therefore, her desicions. She decided to end her friendship with Snape. Both of them must take responsibility for their actions.

Lily made a decision to end a friendship that was becoming harmful - to her dignity, her self respect and her personal safety. A friendship where her values and her friend's values were at odds, and at a time when people like her were being murdered because of the prejudiced values Snape was taking on. She took responsibility -she joined the Order of the Phoenix to personally stand against what Voldemort was doing.

Both of them wronged each other--after all, wasn't she giving him a hard time about his friends? I'm sorry--but I can't believe people accept this. She had no right to try and control who his friends were. She didn't own him. Why hasn't anyone realized this? :hmm:

Lily was advising Snape about friends she saw as trouble. And considering what Mulciber and Avery were doing, and what they went on to do, and Snape along with them, she had plenty of reason to be concerned. That's what a good friend does, imo. If someone knew that their friend was hanging around with people who use drugs, or who steal cars, or mug elderly people, they would advise them that these people are trouble. That's what a good, concerned friend does, imo, and that was what Lily was doing. It's not controlling, it's looking out for a friend.

Lily made a decision to end a friendship that was becoming harmful - to her dignity, her self respect and her personal safety. A friendship where her values and her friend's values were at odds, and at a time when people like her were being murdered because of the prejudiced values Snape was taking on. She took responsibility -she joined the Order of the Phoenix to personally stand against what Voldemort was doing.



Lily was advising Snape about friends she saw as trouble. And considering what Mulciber and Avery were doing, and what they went on to do, and Snape along with them, she had plenty of reason to be concerned. That's what a good friend does, imo. If someone knew that their friend was hanging around with people who use drugs, or who steal cars, or mug elderly people, they would advise them that these people are trouble. That's what a good, concerned friend does, imo, and that was what Lily was doing. It's not controlling, it's looking out for a friend.

ICAM!! Lily was trying to look for Snape, and when she ended the friendship it was no longer a healthy friendship and he was becoming more and more in the dark arts. She was concerned about his friendship with people who were in dark arts. Any friend would express concern if their friend was with people who did things like that. Why is that wrong?? WAs she supposed NOT say anything

Lily made a decision to end a friendship that was becoming harmful - to her dignity, her self respect and her personal safety. A friendship where her values and her friend's values were at odds, and at a time when people like her were being murdered because of the prejudiced values Snape was taking on. She took responsibility -she joined the Order of the Phoenix to personally stand against what Voldemort was doing.
I'm not disagreeing with that. I think Lily made a good decision.
And considering what Mulciber and Avery were doing,
What were they doing? I know they were prejudiced towards Mudbloods, but did we ever really find out what Mulciber did to Mary McDonald?
Was Lily's 'You should be grateful to James' speech looking out for a friend? because it struck me as patronizing and unfair. You'd think after the danger her best friend had been in, she would have been more concerned, instead of criticizing him for--what--sneaking down to the Shrieking Shack and not being grateful for James saving him? It seemed a little insensitive to me.

he was becoming more and more in the dark arts.
He was fifteen, his home didn't seem very happy, and he wasn't treated well at school. Did he murder anyone in his fifth year? Torture anyone? Not that we know of. Let's not condemn him for being holed up on his own instead of playing Quidditch with the Gryffindors. I can't blame him; besides, he's innocent until proven guilty.
Any friend would express concern if their friend was with people who did things like that. Why is that wrong?? WAs she supposed NOT say anything
Who he hangs out with is his business. Personally, I think Lily was being rather hysterical about it. 'You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?' is exactly what an enraged fifteen-year-old would say, not someone who suspects real danger; if she had, why didn't she talk to Dumbledore and tell him about her concerns that he and his friends might be up to no good?

What were they doing? I know they were prejudiced towards Mudbloods, but did we ever really find out what Mulciber did to Mary McDonald?
We know it was dark magic, and Snape didn't deny this, he just tried to brush it off by calling it a laugh. Lily obviously didn't stand for the dark arts. And we know Snape was alright with the dark arts himself. He was "up to his eyes" in it, knew tons of dark curses before even coming to Hogwarts, and invented Sectumsempra. Can we imagine someone like Harry, Ron, or Hermione condoning this sort of behaviour? It seems unfair, to me, to expect Lily to stick around while her friend got up to these things.


He was fifteen, his home didn't seem very happy, and he wasn't treated well at school. Did he murder anyone in his fifth year? Torture anyone? Not that we know of. Let's not condemn him for being holed up on his own instead of playing Quidditch with the Gryffindors. I can't blame him; besides, he's innocent until proven guilty.
He didn't torture or kill anyone at school, but he was showing signs of wanting to join up with the Death Eaters and Voldemort, people who were torturing and killing people. And not just anyone, people specifically like Lily. She suspected that's who he wanted to join, and accused him of it, and he didn't deny or try to explain. He joined up of his own volition, too; JKR said he thought it would impress Lily.

No one is condemning Snape for keeping to himself at times.



Who he hangs out with is his business. Personally, I think Lily was being rather hysterical about it. 'You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?' is exactly what an enraged fifteen-year-old would say, not someone who suspects real danger; if she had, why didn't she talk to Dumbledore and tell him about her concerns that he and his friends might be up to no good?
Who he hangs out with is his business until it becomes a problem for Lily personally. Mulciber and Avery were prejudiced against Muggleborns like herself and weren't against using dark magic on them during school. Snape was okay with their behaviour and thought it was funny. Yet he expected Lily to stand for that? That did become her business then, I'd say. And if she was just being selfish, she could have just cut him off then and not thought another second about Snape; instead, she tried to make Snape see reason about the cruelty of his friends for his own benefit.

Lily made a decision to end a friendship that was becoming harmful - to her dignity, her self respect and her personal safety. A friendship where her values and her friend's values were at odds, and at a time when people like her were being murdered because of the prejudiced values Snape was taking on. She took responsibility -she joined the Order of the Phoenix to personally stand against what Voldemort was doing.

Those are exactly the things that I like about Lily as a character. I think she makes a good role model, because she realized she needed to stand up for what she knew was right, and she did so.

Lily was advising Snape about friends she saw as trouble. And considering what Mulciber and Avery were doing, and what they went on to do, and Snape along with them, she had plenty of reason to be concerned. That's what a good friend does, imo. If someone knew that their friend was hanging around with people who use drugs, or who steal cars, or mug elderly people, they would advise them that these people are trouble. That's what a good, concerned friend does, imo, and that was what Lily was doing. It's not controlling, it's looking out for a friend.

I think Lily was trying very hard for a long time to continue her friendship with Severus, as it was something she valued. But I think she told him over and over about the things that bothered her that he was in to, and he ignored her. Her friend was taking a path that was against her morals, and directly harmful to her. I think she advised Severus against belonging to that gang because she didn't want him to become that sort of person. She never said "Do this, or else." I don't think that was part of her personality. I don't see her making any threats or offers of reward to Severus to change his behavior, which would indicate to me a desire to control. Instead I think she was hoping that he truly wasn't that sort of person. I think her advice was good, and something a true friend would offer, but in the end no one can make someone take advice they don't want, and I think Lily was right to end the friendship so she could concentrate on doing what she knew was right.

Lily was trying to look for Snape, and when she ended the friendship it was no longer a healthy friendship and he was becoming more and more in the dark arts.

I agree. I think Lily tried to keep the friendship going as long as possible, but she needed to end it for her sake. As she told Severus, she had chosen her way, a path very different than his. She was going to stand up for herself, other Muggleborns, and fight Voldemort.

invented Sectumsempra.
He invented Sectumsempra to protect himself from certain people who might be interested in attacking him without provocation. I would have invented and used it too, and with pride.

Who he hangs out with is his business until it becomes a problem for Lily personally. Mulciber and Avery were prejudiced against Muggleborns like herself and weren't against using dark magic on them during school. Snape was okay with their behaviour and thought it was funny.
Understood. :agree: They did cross the line, I guess, so I can see why she'd be mad.

He was "up to his eyes" in it, knew tons of dark curses before even coming to Hogwarts, and invented Sectumsempra.

Answered on the Snape thread.

We know it was dark magic, and Snape didn't deny this, he just tried to brush it off by calling it a laugh. Lily obviously didn't stand for the dark arts. And we know Snape was alright with the dark arts himself. He was "up to his eyes" in it, knew tons of dark curses before even coming to Hogwarts, and invented Sectumsempra. Can we imagine someone like Harry, Ron, or Hermione condoning this sort of behaviour? It seems unfair, to me, to expect Lily to stick around while her friend got up to these things.

I think Lily would have a particular concern about the Dark Magic that Snape both knew and condoned, given that this takes place in the middle of the first Wizarding War. The "Dark Lord" and his Death Eaters specialized in it. From what she said, I definitely think she did not like Dark Magic.

He invented Sectumsempra to protect himself from certain people who might be interested in attacking him without provocation. I would have invented and used it too, and with pride.

It doesn't strike me as a defensive spell at all, so I doubt it. It seems to be made to slice people open, or slice off body parts. The Prince's book only stated that Severus invented it "for enemies". Provoked, unprovoked, personal ememy, ememy of blood purity-- not specified.

He invented Sectumsempra to protect himself from certain people who might be interested in attacking him without provocation. I would have invented and used it too, and with pride.
I never really saw it as a defensive spell, but an offensive curse. Even when Harry used it in the defensive, it was really, really terrible and could have killed Draco. Nothing the Marauders did to Snape at school was close to what Draco attempted on Harry that day (crucio, if I remember), so I can't see it as ever being justified. It's a pretty dark curse, if you ask me. And Snape clearly intended to use it on his enemies, as he wrote down in his book.

That's a bit off-topic! Whoops, sorry.

My point is, I don't think Lily would have taken his interest in the dark arts lightly. As OldMotherCrow said, it was during the middle of a war, and there was a pretty distinct line between both sides. Lily was prepared to die for her side, and Snape was clearly on the opposite side from her. She did what she had to do.

I think it was both admirable and naive of Lily to keep the friendship going as long as it did. Admirable because it showed her faith in her friend, and her willingness to see the good in people. Naive because Snape was, in my opinion, a lost cause at that point. Lily was a prime target of Voldemort, being Muggleborn, and yet Snape still wanted to join up with him; JKR said he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side that he thought Lily would find him impressive. Even after all Lily said, straight to his face, about how she hated the dark arts and his Death Eater friends. I don't think there was much that Lily (or anyone, for that matter) could have done or said to make Snape realize the error of his ways at that point. It's part of Snape's tragedy.

IMO, Lily and Severus were friends before they went to Hogwarts because they had magic in common. He had an added attraction to her because she befriended him when it seems that he was pretty much without friends or a stable homelife.

There is not much that tells us they spent a great deal of time together after they started school. We don't even have a clear idea of how much time they spent together during school breaks. I think that once Lily got to school and found other witches and wizards, she saw less and less in Severus. Where she might have been more willing to overlook his faults when he was the only "magic" person she knew, once she had become part of Gryffindor House and was making a place for herself at Hogwarts, Severus was less and less use to her.

I think Lily was becoming more interested in James, but, kept him at a distance because he was a bit arrogant and she didn't want to appear to be won over too easily. Severus was not attractive, popular, or athletic. IMO, Lily, maybe not even realizing it, was ready to break off her friendship with him and move on to new territory.

While the use of the term "Mudblood" was terrible, it was not unforgivable. Lily, had she been really in tune with Severus, would have realized that he struck out at her in a moment of rage and frustration. But, she did not give him any benefit of the doubt. She listened to what others had to say about him, she listened to James' side of the Shrieking Shack incident, and she judged her "friend" very harshly when he came contritely to apologize to her for something very wrong that he had done.

Lily refers to Severus' DE friends. However, in their fifth year, Mulciber and Avery could not have been DEs because they were still under 17. (In DH it is mentioned that the actual Death Eaters were a very select group, and, even though Greyback was allowed to wear the robes, he was never considered a true Death Eater. There were other followers of Voldemort, but, "Death Eaters" were the elite.)

While Severus might have been "into" dark arts, so was Dumbledore just after he got out of school, and he turned out pretty well, so, being interested in dark arts is not a guarantee that you are planning to be a DE. I'm not sure of what proof Lily had of this other than, once again, the word of others. We aren't given any scenes in the books where Severus showed Lily any "dark" magic. So, I'm not sure how she was so convinced that her best friend was actually into the dark arts.

Again, IMO, Lily remained friends with Severus as long as it was to her advantage, then, when it became more of a bother than an advantage, she waited for a reason to cut him off, and he gave it to her in SWM.

In what sense was Lily's friendship with Snape 'to her advantage'? :hmm:

I thought The Prince's Tale made it all clear enough - not that Lily was looking for some convenient excuse to dump Severus but that she had genuine fears about the direction his life was going in.

My point is, I don't think Lily would have taken his interest in the dark arts lightly.
I don't think so either, and I think Pearl's right, Lily was never looking to get rid of Sev. When she said 'I've been making excuses for you' however, it struck me as a little unfair. Why should 'my friends don't like you' be in her list of reasons to end their friendship? :huh:

Where she might have been more willing to overlook his faults when he was the only "magic" person she knew, once she had become part of Gryffindor House and was making a place for herself at Hogwarts, Severus was less and less use to her.
...

Again, IMO, Lily remained friends with Severus as long as it was to her advantage, then, when it became more of a bother than an advantage, she waited for a reason to cut him off, and he gave it to her in SWM.
I think it's a little unfair to say she valued him only in his use to her... that sounds more like Voldemort than Lily. She had a lot of reasons to break off the friendship, but she worked hard to keep it going for years. To me she seemed to value her friendship quite a lot. JKR did say she certainly loved him as a friend.


While the use of the term "Mudblood" was terrible, it was not unforgivable. Lily, had she been really in tune with Severus, would have realized that he struck out at her in a moment of rage and frustration. But, she did not give him any benefit of the doubt.
I think had that been the only cause of friction in their friendship, she could have forgiven him eventually. But he wasn't really helping himself by calling other Muggleborns "Mudblood". I doubt his use of it on other people was always prefaced with embarrassing situations, so it seems clear he had no aversions to using the word (until later in life). Also, it wasn't just a word, it was a whole mindset and prejudice. And during the war with Voldemort, it was a prejudice that was dangerous to Lily.

I think she gave him the benefit of the doubt for years.



I don't think so either, and I think Pearl's right, Lily was never looking to get rid of Sev. When she said 'I've been making excuses for you' however, it struck me as a little unfair. Why should 'my friends don't like you' be in her list of reasons to end their friendship? :huh:

I think Lily took into account why her friends didn't like Snape. There were a lot of reasons they could have distrusted and disliked him; his interest in the dark arts, his friends, his apparent prejudice against Muggleborns. Any good friend of Lily would worry for her if she was hanging around someone like that, I think.

I think it's a little unfair to say she valued him only in his use to her... that sounds more like Voldemort than Lily. She had a lot of reasons to break off the friendship, but she worked hard to keep it going for years. To me she seemed to value her friendship quite a lot. JKR did say she certainly loved him as a friend.



I think had that been the only cause of friction in their friendship, she could have forgiven him eventually. But he wasn't really helping himself by calling other Muggleborns "Mudblood". I doubt his use of it on other people was always prefaced with embarrassing situations, so it seems clear he had no aversions to using the word (until later in life). Also, it wasn't just a word, it was a whole mindset and prejudice. And during the war with Voldemort, it was a prejudice that was dangerous to Lily.

I think she gave him the benefit of the doubt for years.



I think Lily took into account why her friends didn't like Snape. There were a lot of reasons they could have distrusted and disliked him; his interest in the dark arts, his friends, his apparent prejudice against Muggleborns. Any good friend of Lily would worry for her if she was hanging around someone like that, I think.

ITA!!! Lily tried to defend him for years, and when she saw where he was going, she couldn't stick with him. I'm all for friendship first but there is a line needs to be drawn, and being harsh on Lily for doing just that and showing t

ITA!!! Lily tried to defend him for years, and when she saw where he was going, she couldn't stick with him. I'm all for friendship first but there is a line needs to be drawn, and being harsh on Lily for doing just that and putting her dignity and self-respect and well-being first is extremely unfair. Snape IS NOT the complete victim here, he made a choice and it was the wrong choice. Friendship has to be healthy and be based on mutual understanding, and there was none of that. Snape pushed Lily away so far that she couldn't in right conscience, stay with him.

I think it's a little unfair to say she valued him only in his use to her... that sounds more like Voldemort than Lily. She had a lot of reasons to break off the friendship, but she worked hard to keep it going for years. To me she seemed to value her friendship quite a lot. JKR did say she certainly loved him as a friend.

I think had that been the only cause of friction in their friendship, she could have forgiven him eventually. But he wasn't really helping himself by calling other Muggleborns "Mudblood". I doubt his use of it on other people was always prefaced with embarrassing situations, so it seems clear he had no aversions to using the word (until later in life). Also, it wasn't just a word, it was a whole mindset and prejudice. And during the war with Voldemort, it was a prejudice that was dangerous to Lily.

I think she gave him the benefit of the doubt for years.

I think Lily took into account why her friends didn't like Snape. There were a lot of reasons they could have distrusted and disliked him; his interest in the dark arts, his friends, his apparent prejudice against Muggleborns. Any good friend of Lily would worry for her if she was hanging around someone like that, I think.

(NOTE: First, let me clarify that, IMO, character analysis is based on the characters as they are written in the books, not on interviews given by the author either between books in the series (which could be "red herrings") or later on. So my analysis is based on canon, not on JKR's interviews.)

Could you cite any specific sections of any of the books that show reasons Lily had for breaking off her friendship with Severus other than “hearsay“? And, other than on the original trip on the Hogwarts' Express, can you cite any other times where Lily sticks up for Severus prior to SWM?

Even then, during that incident, as her "best friend" was undergoing extreme harassment and humiliation at the hands of two other individuals, according to SWM:

Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile, said, "Let him down!"

I'm not certain that a "best friend" would find anything humorous in seeing your friend hung upside down with his underwear showing. I would think this would incite anger, which it finally seemed to. But, then the "M" word was used, and Lily walked away. Did Severus see the near-grin on her face and react to that? Since this is not the Severus thread I won't follow up on that, I'm just mentioning it as the defense of Lily is going to be the word "Mudblood." But, did Lily initially betray the friendship by appearing amused at Severus’ situation?

As for heeding the warnings of her friends about Severus, there is also the question of her heeding Severus’ warnings about her other “friends.” When the Shrieking Shack incident is disussed between the two, the benefit of the doubt is given to the others and Lily’s “friend” is berated for “snooping around,” even though he tries to explain that it is out of concern for her. She seems to defend Lupin’s “illness,” very intently, even though it is pointed out that it only happens during the full moon. As a best friend, it seemed that wanting Lily to be aware that she was living in close proximity to a werewolf would be the act of a best friend, and an attempt to protect her rather than just snooping around.

The use of the term “Mudblood” at all was terrible, and it should not have been used as freely as it was. It should have been discouraged, even punished, by the school authorities, especially with the rise of Voldemort’s followers. I have always been surprised that there’s no mention of any repercussions under school rules for the use of the term.

But, as we see later, it wasn’t Severus’ “prejudice” that killed Lily. While her life was inadvertently put into danger by a Slytherin who loved her, it was, in fact, a trusted Gryffindor friend who brought about her and James’ deaths and nearly Harry’s. IMO, this shows a bit of a lacking in Lily’s judgment of character. She did not know which friend would have died to save her.


ITA!!! Lily tried to defend him for years, and when she saw where he was going, she couldn't stick with him. I'm all for friendship first but there is a line needs to be drawn, and being harsh on Lily for doing just that and putting her dignity and self-respect and well-being first is extremely unfair. Snape IS NOT the complete victim here, he made a choice and it was the wrong choice. Friendship has to be healthy and be based on mutual understanding, and there was none of that. Snape pushed Lily away so far that she couldn't in right conscience, stay with him.

Once again, can you cite instances where Lily defended Severus other than on the Hogwarts’ Express and during SWM?

To me, being a “best friend” is a very special obligation on both sides. It seems to me that neither Lily nor Severus were blameless in the demise of their friendship. I would say the peer pressure on both sides was tremendous for each of them and had a lot to do with their splitting up.

I never stated that Severus was the “complete victim.” Severus was responsible for his own actions. He recognized his error, though, and did try to apologize for it. But, as a “best friend” of at least 7 or 8 years, I am surprised that Lily was so unwilling to hear him out. I believe that this was Lily’s opportunity to break off the friendship and move on to her new friends who were giving her all of the advice against Severus, and she took it.

I think you did hit on the true reason for the breakup of the friendship, though, when you said it has to be “based on mutual understanding.” Once Lily and Severus were separated into their respective Houses I don’t think that they ever had the closeness and understanding that they enjoyed before going to Hogwarts.

I do not agree that Severus pushed Lily away so that “she couldn’t in right conscience, stay with him.” I, personally, don’t think that her decision to break off with Severus was a matter of conscience. He had become more of a burden for her, “always having to defend him” to her friends. All of his interest in the dark arts (we still are not given specifics about this, including what “dark arts” Mulciber used on Mary McDonald), his use of the term “Mudblood” against other Muggle-borns, etc. All of these things could ether be contributed to his trying to fit in with the others in Slytherin House, or that he was preparing to be a DE. Lily chose to believe the latter -- the worst -- about her best friend.

Originally posted by MC
I never stated that Severus was the “complete victim.” Severus was responsible for his own actions. He recognized his error, though, and did try to apologize for it. But, as a “best friend” of at least 7 or 8 years, I am surprised that Lily was so unwilling to hear him out. I believe that this was Lily’s opportunity to break off the friendship and move on to her new friends who were giving her all of the advice against Severus, and she took it.
I sort of agree with this--I don't think Lily just wanted to get rid of him, but I think she felt she had too, and I definitely agree it was odd for someone who'd had a best friend for about seven years, and not want to even give them a chance to properly apologize.

Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile, said, "Let him down!"

I'm not certain that a "best friend" would find anything humorous in seeing your friend hung upside down with his underwear showing. I would think this would incite anger, which it finally seemed to. But, then the "M" word was used, and Lily walked away. Did Severus see the near-grin on her face and react to that? Since this is not the Severus thread I won't follow up on that, I'm just mentioning it as the defense of Lily is going to be the word "Mudblood." But, did Lily initially betray the friendship by appearing amused at Severus’ situation?
As far as I'm aware, a twitch is a very quick movement that last for probably a second or less. We see in the narration that it was just a quick movement of her mouth that didn't even make a complete smile. What does happen is that Lily knows full well why she's there and why she's angry.

As for why the twitch happens, my take is that seeing her best friend in his underwear is a little funny. It does not matter why he's in that position or how he got there Just sight itself may be a little funny. That alone could have triggered some kind of automatic reaction, hence the "twitch". Of course, the reader can judge anyway they please as to how bad this reaction is, but I do know it's a very human reaction and its happened to a lot of us in many situations.

As for heeding the warnings of her friends about Severus, there is also the question of her heeding Severus’ warnings about her other “friends.” When the Shrieking Shack incident is disussed between the two, the benefit of the doubt is given to the others and Lily’s “friend” is berated for “snooping around,” even though he tries to explain that it is out of concern for her. She seems to defend Lupin’s “illness,” very intently, even though it is pointed out that it only happens during the full moon. As a best friend, it seemed that wanting Lily to be aware that she was living in close proximity to a werewolf would be the act of a best friend, and an attempt to protect her rather than just snooping around.
Lily points out to Snape that she knows his theory already, which means they've talked about this before. Another way to look at this is that Lily may have wanted people to mind their own business about Lupin's "illness." If he was indeed sick and the school was already doing their best handling his situation, it shouldn't be anyone's buisness. Plus, Snape trying to protect Lily from a werewolf I think shows his own prejudice, and the way werewolves are regarded has already been challenged in the books. Snape may have thought he was trying to protect Lily, but Lily didn't need it. And I think she knew that.

Once again, can you cite instances where Lily defended Severus other than on the Hogwarts’ Express and during SWM?
I think that's a bit hard to ask for considering we're only given a select amount of memories involving Lily in action, and the memories were solely about how Snape downfall and he lost her in the first place.

To me, being a “best friend” is a very special obligation on both sides. It seems to me that neither Lily nor Severus were blameless in the demise of their friendship. I would say the peer pressure on both sides was tremendous for each of them and had a lot to do with their splitting up.
Peer pressure from both sides maybe. But I think the friends that were causing any negative peer pressure were Snape's friends in Slytherin house. War was brewing, and Voldy were still recruiting DE's at this time. Whatever peer pressure Lily was receiving from her friends was for her own benefit, like friends who try to steer you away from something that's harmful to you.

And Lily may have believed in the worst in Snape, but it's not like she was wrong (he does become a DE and invented dark spells). If Lily needs to be judged in how to be a better best friend, I would say the same should go to Snape. But from what I get from the text, he was doing that good of a job either.

ETA:
A couple things I forgot to address:
Could you cite any specific sections of any of the books that show reasons Lily had for breaking off her friendship with Severus other than “hearsay“?
Given that this is still a storybook, whatever a character says is true unless proven wrong. It's how the reader gets information. We're only given a select few memories of Lily in action, memories that only centered around Snape (we can't be shown what her friends said to her). I don't see how we can interpret if a character is lying or is misinformed if there is no proof otherwise. If they say it happened, and nothing else in the story contradicts it, it's true. Otherwise, it's very bad writing or very a bad analyzing.

All of his interest in the dark arts (we still are not given specifics about this, including what “dark arts” Mulciber used on Mary McDonald), his use of the term “Mudblood” against other Muggle-borns, etc. All of these things could ether be contributed to his trying to fit in with the others in Slytherin House, or that he was preparing to be a DE. Lily chose to believe the latter -- the worst -- about her best friend.
One does not need to have bad ideas about muggles/muggleborns and be interested in the Dark Arts in order to be a DE. Given the conversation at the portrait hole, it was a mix of all 3. Though I don't see it unreasonable for her to break the friendship for the first 2.

Could you cite any specific sections of any of the books that show reasons Lily had for breaking off her friendship with Severus other than “hearsay“?
'We are, Sev, but I don't like some of the people you're hanging around with! I'm sorry, but I detest Avery and Mucliber! Mulciber! What do you see in him, Sev? He's creepy! D'you know what he tried to do to Mary Macdonald the other day?'
Lily had reached a pillar and leaned against it, looking up into the thin, sallow face.
'That was nothing,' said Snape. 'It was a laugh, that's all--'
'It was Dark Magic, and if you think that's funny--'
So she doesn't like his attitude towards the dark arts, understandably, as he defends them. She doesn't like that he hangs around Mulciber and Avery because she finds them creepy and evil; note that it doesn't sound like they did anything to her personally, she seems more concerned about the fact that Snape is around them.

'I know James Potter's an arrogant toerag,' she said, cutting across Snape. 'I don't need you to tell me that. But Mulciber and Avery's idea of humour is just evil. Evil, Sev. I don't understand how you can be friends with them.'
Harry doubted that Snape had even heard her strictures on Mulciber and Avery. The moment she had insulted James Potter, his whole body had relaxed, and as they walked away there was a new spring in Snape's step...'
Lily clearly sees a big difference between what James Potter does and what Snape's friends were up to. She acknowledges James is arrogant but she knows he doesn't use Dark Magic, whereas Mucliber and Avery do, which she thinks is really bad, so much so that she calls them evil.

When she says "I don't know how you could be friends with them" it doesn't sound like Lily is lumping Snape with them. She sees him as different, she sees a good in him that she doesn't see in his friends. To me that doesn't sound like she's just using him.

Also, Snape doesn't listen to her after she insults James. He doesn't understand where she's coming from, but he doesn't even try to, either. He seems to care more about knowing she dislikes James than her deep-seated views and morals that conflict with his actions.

'I only came out because Mary told me you were threatening to sleep here.'
'I was. I would have done. I never meant to call you Mudblood, it just--'
'Slipped out?' There was no pity in Lily's voice. 'It's too late. I've made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends -- you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?'
He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking.
'I can't pretend any more. You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine.'
'No -- listen, I didn't mean --'
'-- to call me Mudblood? But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?'
He struggled on the verge of speech, but with a contemptuous look she turned and climbed back through the portrait hole.
So she tried to defend him from her friends for years, making up excuses for him. I assume she had to make excuses for his behaviour like calling people Mudblood, which Lily states that he uses on every other Muggleborn. If she was just growing tired of him she could have dropped him much earlier and not have had to burden herself with making up excuses for him. She tried to defend him because she cared.

She called Voldemort "You-Know-Who" by that point. I'm guessing that means Voldemort had gained so much power at that point that it was already terrifying people to refer to him by name--and Snape didn't deny wanting to join up with him. He had nothing to say to her accusation, because, as we know, he did intend to join.

Calling her Mudblood wasn't a one-off. He was using it on every other Muggleborn. As I've said before, it's not just a word, it's a prejudice, and one against Lily. Added is the fact that he and his friends wanted to join Voldemort, who was torturing and killing people like Lily for being such a Mudblood, so I can see perfectly why this would bother Lily to the point of breaking off the friendship.


And, other than on the original trip on the Hogwarts' Express, can you cite any other times where Lily sticks up for Severus prior to SWM?
In the only two scenes that we see Snape get insulted in any way, she defends him. We know she was defending him to her friends for years. There were no other scenes given where Lily had an opportunity to defend him. So, from canon, Lily did defend Snape.


Even then, during that incident, as her "best friend" was undergoing extreme harassment and humiliation at the hands of two other individuals, according to SWM:

Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile, said, "Let him down!"
Lily's no saint... she found some humour in the situation, but she knew it was wrong and continued to yell at James.

Why would it possibly be funny? Well we know the spell was popular around the school during their time, and Lupin said you could barely walk down the halls without getting lifted up in the air. It sounds like this happened a lot between friends, like with Ron and Harry in the dorm, who all found it funny then. It's possible it happened to Lily, it's possible she used it on someone too. It doesn't sound like what James and Sirius did to Snape was all that out of the ordinary, and if it was really all that humiliating, half the school felt that humiliation as well.

It really reminds me of the pantsing phase my middle school went through. It was pretty stupid. Everyone ended up getting pantsed in front of a whole hallway of students. Friends did it to each other and found it funny. It was humiliating, but friends still laughed. My childhood friend did it to me, and I turned bright red, but I got her back. We're talking about kids here! It's not like James was torturing Snape and Lily just watched and laughed.

But, then the "M" word was used, and Lily walked away. Did Severus see the near-grin on her face and react to that?
Probably not, as it was a twitch in her mouth, and he had his robes hanging over his head. I highly doubt that was his reason for calling her Mudblood.

There is not much that tells us they spent a great deal of time together after they started school. We don't even have a clear idea of how much time they spent together during school breaks. I think that once Lily got to school and found other witches and wizards, she saw less and less in Severus. Where she might have been more willing to overlook his faults when he was the only "magic" person she knew, once she had become part of Gryffindor House and was making a place for herself at Hogwarts, Severus was less and less use to her.

I think Lily was becoming more interested in James, but, kept him at a distance because he was a bit arrogant and she didn't want to appear to be won over too easily. Severus was not attractive, popular, or athletic. IMO, Lily, maybe not even realizing it, was ready to break off her friendship with him and move on to new territory.

While the use of the term "Mudblood" was terrible, it was not unforgivable. Lily, had she been really in tune with Severus, would have realized that he struck out at her in a moment of rage and frustration. But, she did not give him any benefit of the doubt. She listened to what others had to say about him, she listened to James' side of the Shrieking Shack incident, and she judged her "friend" very harshly when he came contritely to apologize to her for something very wrong that he had done.




Again, IMO, Lily remained friends with Severus as long as it was to her advantage, then, when it became more of a bother than an advantage, she waited for a reason to cut him off, and he gave it to her in SWM.

I believe Lily spent quite a lot of time with severus, why then her friends would have advised her so much against him if he would habe been a guy she talked to from time to time? Plus Severus says they are best friends, and Lily agrees, he wouldn't have had the confidence to say this if it wasn't truth, Snape was not stupid, if she had been using him he would have realised and tell her.

It is not like Lily to keep a person by herself because it is useful. I believe she really struggled to separate him from what she considered a bad influence.

And yes, she was right she could not go to Dumbledore with a mere suspect, or with Snapes only intention because he was not yet a DE but instead she tried until she was forced to realize there was nothing to save of him.

The choice of separating from Severus was first and had nothing to do with her choice of joining James.

I think she must have had peer presure as well as Snape, only Lily's pressure was less obvious, but slowly, added with Snape's attitude and the war made a big impact.

The choice of separating from Severus was first and had nothing to do with her choice of joining James.
Thank you, and I agree. I really don't see why Lily had to "choose" between Snape and James. Regardless of whenever Lily had feelings for James, romantic feelings for someone and your failing relationship with your friend(s) are two totally different things.

We have Lily's statements about all the times she had to defend Severus to her friends. But, if he was truly her friend, why didn't she just make that clear and tell them to leave her be about him? Yes, I'm sure they were "concerned" for her. But, as I said earlier, Severus was concerned for her regarding Lupin being a werewolf, and she shrugged that off. Living in the same House as a werewolf, to me, is a lot more of an immediate threat to one's safety than the possibility of a friend becoming a DE years later. And, Severus certainly wasn't going to let Mulciber or Avery do anything to Lily, so she was not in immediate danger from him or them.

As for the "pantsing." It wasn't that simple. It wasn't just one friend levitating another in fun, such as the Weasley twins might pull. It was several jinxes, including Impedimenta and Scourgify, being used on him and the perpetrators were not friends and it was not being done in fun. So, if the entire SWM is read over, this was not just a simple "pantsing" incident. While Lily is angry at first and tries to help Severus, her nearly laughing when he was hoisted up and his underwear shown was, IMO, not the act of a friend -- no matter that she was "just fifteen or sixteen."

Could you see Hermoine or Ginny reacting this way if Draco and Co. had done the same things to Neville; or, Harry or Ron if it were Luna? I don't see them finding anything at all amusing and I think they would have done a lot more to protect their friends than Lily did. Look what Ron tried to do to Draco for calling Hermoine a Mudblood.

Severus' robes were "over his head" as he hung there, so I will concede that he probably did not see Lily's expression.

While I do think Lily and Severus were very good friends before they went to Hogwarts', as I said previously, I think their friendship started to suffer because of the separation into different Houses.

I didn't say that Lily left Severus for James. I said she made a choice of her other friends over her "best friend." James was not one of her friends, as we see in SWM.

I just feel that there are very few things that would turn me against my best friend. They would have to do something really horrific to myself or my family, and, name calling or their association with other people that I feel are "creepy" do not come under "horrific."

We have Lily's statements about all the times she had to defend Severus to her friends. But, if he was truly her friend, why didn't she just make that clear and tell them to leave her be about him? Yes, I'm sure they were "concerned" for her. But, as I said earlier, Severus was concerned for her regarding Lupin being a werewolf, and she shrugged that off. Living in the same House as a werewolf, to me, is a lot more of an immediate threat to one's safety than the possibility of a friend becoming a DE years later. And, Severus certainly wasn't going to let Mulciber or Avery do anything to Lily, so she was not in immediate danger from him or them.
What I think about this is that Lily already had fears about Snape herself, and so when her friends voiced them she probably didn't know what to say--she may have defended him, but inside, she probably agreed. :sad:

As for the "pantsing." It wasn't that simple. It wasn't just one friend levitating another in fun, such as the Weasley twins might pull. It was several jinxes, including Impedimenta and Scourgify, being used on him and the perpetrators were not friends and it was not being done in fun. So, if the entire SWM is read over, this was not just a simple "pantsing" incident. While Lily is angry at first and tries to help Severus, her nearly laughing when he was hoisted up and his underwear shown was, IMO, not the act of a friend -- no matter that she was "just fifteen or sixteen."
I agree whole-heartedly. When I read this, I was very angry--it maybe 'just a twitch' but consider the situation! When your best friend is being tormented and humiliated, you don't 'almost smile'! :no: It's rather out of character for Lily, too. :hmm:

I just feel that there are very few things that would turn me against my best friend. They would have to do something really horrific to myself or my family, and, name calling or their association with other people that I feel are "creepy" do not come under "horrific."
Agree with this too. However, I do get the impression that the problems with L/S's relationship started very early--from the day they met. But still, we never hear of Snape committing any crimes in his youth, so it seems it was mostly just that name, and his friends, that turned her. :huh:

But, as we see later, it wasn’t Severus’ “prejudice” that killed Lily. While her life was inadvertently put into danger by a Slytherin who loved her, it was, in fact, a trusted Gryffindor friend who brought about her and James’ deaths and nearly Harry’s. IMO, this shows a bit of a lacking in Lily’s judgment of character. She did not know which friend would have died to save her.

Snape did play a role in her death, though -that is canon, as he was the one who caused Voldemort to hunt her and her family in the first place. And while, in hindsight, Pettigrew couldn't be trusted, Lily had no reason to trust someone who held prejudices against Muggleborns, and who, like Pettigrew, was also a DE.

I never stated that Severus was the “complete victim.” Severus was responsible for his own actions. He recognized his error, though, and did try to apologize for it. But, as a “best friend” of at least 7 or 8 years, I am surprised that Lily was so unwilling to hear him out. I believe that this was Lily’s opportunity to break off the friendship and move on to her new friends who were giving her all of the advice against Severus, and she took it.

What is there to suggest these were new friends? New, as in recently, in their fifth year? I imagine Lily would have made other friends from her first year at Hogwarts.

I sort of agree with this--I don't think Lily just wanted to get rid of him, but I think she felt she had too, and I definitely agree it was odd for someone who'd had a best friend for about seven years, and not want to even give them a chance to properly apologize.

Snape's attempt at an apology showed that he didn't know what he was apologising for. He was apologising for what he claims was an accidental slip of the tongue. Whereas, for Lily, being the target of a disgusting racial slur from her best friend was a symptom of what was wrong and was the last straw. His use of the word against others, his interest in Dark Magic, and his friendship with wannabe DEs.


When she says "I don't know how you could be friends with them" it doesn't sound like Lily is lumping Snape with them. She sees him as different, she sees a good in him that she doesn't see in his friends. To me that doesn't sound like she's just using him.

That's a good point. She doesn't, at this point, see Snape as being like Mulciber and Avery. She sees him as a better person than them, and she sees them as a bad influence. In their conversations, she's trying to convince him that they're bad news.

So she tried to defend him from her friends for years, making up excuses for him. I assume she had to make excuses for his behaviour like calling people Mudblood, which Lily states that he uses on every other Muggleborn. If she was just growing tired of him she could have dropped him much earlier and not have had to burden herself with making up excuses for him. She tried to defend him because she cared.

I agree, Lily could have ended the friendship when he started hanging out with dangerous people like Mulciber and Avery, if she didn't care, if she was just using Snape. (Which is something there's no canon for.) Instead, she tried to talk to him about the kind of people they were.

In the only two scenes that we see Snape get insulted in any way, she defends him. We know she was defending him to her friends for years. There were no other scenes given where Lily had an opportunity to defend him. So, from canon, Lily did defend Snape.

I agree, Lily is shown to defend Snape.

We have Lily's statements about all the times she had to defend Severus to her friends. But, if he was truly her friend, why didn't she just make that clear and tell them to leave her be about him? Yes, I'm sure they were "concerned" for her.

They had every reason to be concerned for her, given Snape's interest in Dark Arts, his use of racial slurs against people, and his friendship with dangerous people like Mulciber and Avery. Lily's other friends don't seem to have been budding criminals, why would she just shut them out, when they had genuine concerns for her?

But, as I said earlier, Severus was concerned for her regarding Lupin being a werewolf, and she shrugged that off. Living in the same House as a werewolf, to me, is a lot more of an immediate threat to one's safety than the possibility of a friend becoming a DE years later. And, Severus certainly wasn't going to let Mulciber or Avery do anything to Lily, so she was not in immediate danger from him or them.

Lupin would only have been a danger at full moon; and at full moon, he was in the Shack, as far as Snape knew. Whereas wannabe DEs like Mulciber and Avery are a danger at any time, as shown by the Dark Magic they used against Mary McDonald.

Could you see Hermoine or Ginny reacting this way if Draco and Co. had done the same things to Neville; or, Harry or Ron if it were Luna? I don't see them finding anything at all amusing and I think they would have done a lot more to protect their friends than Lily did.

It seems Snape's pride was hurt by Lily helping at all. His pride would probably have been a lot more dented if Lily had charged in firing jinxes. Also, what is wrong with having the maturity to talk and tell the Marauders off, rather than resort to fighting straight away?

Look what Ron tried to do to Draco for calling Hermoine a Mudblood.

Yes, and that was because Mudblood is the foulest racial insult in the wizarding world. And incidentally, Draco and Snape both used the exact same phrasing "filthy little Mudblood".

I just feel that there are very few things that would turn me against my best friend. They would have to do something really horrific to myself or my family, and, name calling or their association with other people that I feel are "creepy" do not come under "horrific."

Mudblood is not simply "name-calling". It's made very clear in the series that it's the equivalent of the worst racial slurs in the real world. It's very demeaning to be the target of a word like that, it shows disrespect and that the person using the word considers the victim scum. This was also at a time when Muggleborns were being murdered, because people like Snape's friends considered them unworthy to live. Snape's friends were wannabe terrorists, who considered people like Lily scum. Would anyone expect an African-American girl, or a non-white British girl, to be okay with her white friend being friends with wannabe KKK members or racist thugs? That is the situation Lily was in.

Mudblood is not simply "name-calling". It's made very clear in the series that it's the equivalent of the worst racial slurs in the real world. It's very demeaning to be the target of a word like that, it shows disrespect and that the person using the word considers the victim scum. This was also at a time when Muggleborns were being murdered, because people like Snape's friends considered them unworthy to live. Snape's friends were wannabe terrorists, who considered people like Lily scum. Would anyone expect an African-American girl, or a non-white British girl, to be okay with her white friend being friends with wannabe KKK members or racist thugs? That is the situation Lily was in.

EXACTLY!! It's the HP equivalent of calling someone any racial slur like N-word or anything like that. You don't call your friend that. Snape used that word and so he did believe Muggle borns were inferior, and Lily didn't want to be on some pedestal as the sole exception, she defended Snape and told off the school's cool kids, and he calls her that? So it's OK to call a friend that, she should just stay with him despite his increasing involvement with future DEs b/c they were friends? No. Sorry, but she was right. Snape at that point had gone too far.

Snape's attempt at an apology showed that he didn't know what he was apologising for. He was apologising for what he claims was an accidental slip of the tongue. Whereas, for Lily, being the target of a disgusting racial slur from her best friend was a symptom of what was wrong and was the last straw. His use of the word against others, his interest in Dark Magic, and his friendship with wannabe DEs.
I think it pretty much was an accident. Would you really say that Snape wanted to hurt Lily? No. He was furious and humiliated and so he lashed out at her. What he said was wrong, but not unforgivable.


EXACTLY!! It's the HP equivalent of calling someone any racial slur like N-word or anything like that. You don't call your friend that. Snape used that word and so he did believe Muggle borns were inferior, and Lily didn't want to be on some pedestal as the sole exception, she defended Snape and told off the school's cool kids, and he calls her that? So it's OK to call a friend that, she should just stay with him despite his increasing involvement with future DEs b/c they were friends? No. Sorry, but she was right. Snape at that point had gone too far.
It's not okay, I'm not making excuses for him, but I'm analyzing Lily's character, Lily's choices, not his. If you want to discuss what Snape did, you can go on the Snape thread.

I think it pretty much was an accident. Would you really say that Snape wanted to hurt Lily? No. He was furious and humiliated and so he lashed out at her. What he said was wrong, but not unforgivable.
He didn't intend to hurt her that badly, but I think he did want to lash out. Just like Lily wanted to lash out after he'd hurt her. That's normal. I think Lily could forgive any lashing out if there hadn't been any underlying prejudice.

He didn't mind hurting all the other Muggleborns in the school by calling them Mudbloods. This was unforgivable; as it's been pointed out tons before, it's the equivalent of a really bad racial slur. I think she probably felt that if he didn't call her a Mudblood, it meant there was still hope for him, and that's why she clung to the friendship even if she knew he was using the word on others, but when he used it on her it was a slap back to reality. I don't think she cared if it was said in anger, because the point is that it was a part of his vocabulary and he used it freely on others. I think SWM made her realize she was being naive about him.

Can you imagine Ron or Harry calling Hermione a Mudblood in anger? Even if they really didn't mean it? I can't, because they never used the word, it was so foul to them that they'd never even dream of using it. It's not a part of their vocabulary. The fact that this was the word that "slipped out" for Snape is pretty telling, to me.

He didn't intend to hurt her that badly, but I think he did want to lash out. Just like Lily wanted to lash out after he'd hurt her. That's normal. I think Lily could forgive any lashing out if there hadn't been any underlying prejudice.

Agreed. I think the real problem with what he said is that he'd been saying before 'It doesn't matter you're Muggle-born' then off calling people Mudbloods....then finally her, and I think she must have felt he crossed the line, that it was too late.

Living in the same House as a werewolf, to me, is a lot more of an immediate threat to one's safety than the possibility of a friend becoming a DE years later. And, Severus certainly wasn't going to let Mulciber or Avery do anything to Lily, so she was not in immediate danger from him or them.
Bold mine, but was Lily sure of that? Plus, I think the books already establish the right and wrongs of how werewolves are discriminated, and the attitudes like Snape has for werewolves has been challenged in the text. All Lily knew for sure was that something was wrong with him. I think her brushing of Severus' claim was also an indication that she was not letting herself get involved in Lupin's business. The school was already doing what they can to help Lupin. I think meddling into another student's affairs, especially regarding their health, is rather rude if that student isn't even saying much about it. I think Lily knew that whatever he was going through shouldn't have been anyone else's concern.


I just feel that there are very few things that would turn me against my best friend. They would have to do something really horrific to myself or my family, and, name calling or their association with other people that I feel are "creepy" do not come under "horrific."
I think the books themselves show how much weight the word mudblood entails, and that it's not just "name calling." Dark magic involves some type of extreme harm to another person (unlike jinxes like blowing someone up or turning them into slugs, which I think are established as temporary), and the DE's along with Voldy are established as the main villains of this story. Given all of that, I think it was very reasonable for Lily to be fearful of Snape. Otherwise, this story and its struggles make no sense if indeed the things I stated above aren't something for a character to be that upset or fearful about.

We have Lily's statements about all the times she had to defend Severus to her friends. But, if he was truly her friend, why didn't she just make that clear and tell them to leave her be about him? Yes, I'm sure they were "concerned" for her.

How do we know if she didn't tell them to leave her alone about Snape? And even so, I doubt many friends would take that as an answer because they were probably worried for her - I know I wouldn't, at least.

But, as I said earlier, Severus was concerned for her regarding Lupin being a werewolf, and she shrugged that off. Living in the same House as a werewolf, to me, is a lot more of an immediate threat to one's safety than the possibility of a friend becoming a DE years later.

But Remus only turns into a werewolf on the full moon. Snape is more than aware that Remus is far from the Gryffindor tower. IMO, his comment was based less on concern and more on trying to get Lily to not trust Remus (and his friends, for that matter).

I also disagree that being a werewolf is somehow worse than the possibility of being a werewolf. Remus had no choice in transforming into a werewolf and obviously never wanted to hurt someone if he could help it. Snape, on the other hand, was actually choosing to assist Voldemort. Having a condition that makes someone dangerous against their own will is completely different from someone who wants to join a group of people who aim to torture, control, and possess innocent people with Lily as one of the prime targets.

And, Severus certainly wasn't going to let Mulciber or Avery do anything to Lily, so she was not in immediate danger from him or them.

But that's not necessarily the point. Lily is upset because she doesn't see how Snape could be friends with people so "evil," especially after whatever they did to Mary.

I didn't say that Lily left Severus for James. I said she made a choice of her other friends over her "best friend." James was not one of her friends, as we see in SWM.

Since when was it a decision based on which friends were "better"? :huh: Lily didn't want to be friends with Snape because he was interested in joining Voldemort, found the Dark Arts amusing, and believed in pureblood supremacy while making her an exception to his beliefs. She never said that it had anything to do with her friends except that they couldn't understand why she'd be friends with him based on the previous reasons I gave.

I just feel that there are very few things that would turn me against my best friend. They would have to do something really horrific to myself or my family, and, name calling or their association with other people that I feel are "creepy" do not come under "horrific."

It was not just name calling. He threw the worst insult he could have thrown at her. Moreover, he was going down the wrong path, one that she couldn't tolerate. How could she associate with someone who wanted to promote a regime that aimed to kill people like her and her family? She was so against that she ended up dedicating her life to fight Voldemort. That's a pretty legitimate reason to not be friends with someone, IMO.

I think it pretty much was an accident. Would you really say that Snape wanted to hurt Lily? No. He was furious and humiliated and so he lashed out at her. What he said was wrong, but not unforgivable.

Of course it was an accident, Lily did hear him say that it "slipped out." She also pointed out that he made her an exception because he called other Muggleborns Mudbloods. But calling her a Mudblood was just a wake-up call to the person he was becoming and not the sole reason for breaking off her friendship.

If you want to discuss what Snape did, you can go on the Snape thread.

Leave the modding to the staff, please.

He threw the worst insult he could have thrown at her.
I disagree. Mudblood is a deragatory term and it should never be used, but he could certainly have used worse words.

I disagree. Mudblood is a deragatory term and it should never be used, but he could certainly have used worse words.

I do think it was the worst word, for her. This was during the war, with one side having Blood Purity on its agenda. I believe that what Lily said to Snape after he calls her "filthy little Mudblood" showed just how seriously she felt it was, given what was going on with Voldemort and his Death Eaters. Not only was the word derogatory and humiliating and dangerous to her, but I believe it confirmed for her the worst fears she had about where Severus was going. It also put many things into clarity for her, I think. I think she realized how ugly the Blood Purity thing was, that it made a friend turn against her, and she saw just how perilous it was to be protected through being someone's "exception"; it only lasts as long as one stays in that person's good graces, and can be snatched away in a second for any reason. She realized that she needed to let the friendship go, and she was resolved to fight Voldemort. I think it was her was her watershed moment, where she saw her path before her.

In the Potterverse, 'Mudblood' IS the worst word there is. To downplay the seriousness and import of the Wizarding World's premier racial insult is to ignore one of the main themes of the series, IMO.

I feel for Snape but his use of the Word against Lily was the final thing that broke their long friendship.

Originally posted by Pearl
In the Potterverse, 'Mudblood' IS the worst word there is. To downplay the seriousness and import of the Wizarding World's premier racial insult is to ignore one of the main themes of the series, IMO.

I feel for Snape but his use of the Word against Lily was the final thing that broke their long friendship.

Agreed.

I do think it was the worst word, for her. This was during the war, with one side having Blood Purity on its agenda. I believe that what Lily said to Snape after he calls her "filthy little Mudblood" showed just how seriously she felt it was, given what was going on with Voldemort and his Death Eaters. Not only was the word derogatory and humiliating and dangerous to her, but I believe it confirmed for her the worst fears she had about where Severus was going. It also put many things into clarity for her, I think. I think she realized how ugly the Blood Purity thing was, that it made a friend turn against her, and she saw just how perilous it was to be protected through being someone's "exception"; it only lasts as long as one stays in that person's good graces, and can be snatched away in a second for any reason. She realized that she needed to let the friendship go, and she was resolved to fight Voldemort. I think it was her was her watershed moment, where she saw her path before her.

Well said. It's true what you said about being someone's exception, and how dangerous that is.

I honestly don't know what more Lily could have done. If he honestly thought becoming a DE would impress her, I don't think he was thinking rationally about it, so there was nothing rational Lily could do.

I honestly don't know what more Lily could have done. If he honestly thought becoming a DE would impress her, I don't think he was thinking rationally about it, so there was nothing rational Lily could do.
It does seem there was a huge disconnect between them at that time.

Well said. It's true what you said about being someone's exception, and how dangerous that is.

I honestly don't know what more Lily could have done. If he honestly thought becoming a DE would impress her, I don't think he was thinking rationally about it, so there was nothing rational Lily could do.

She could have gone to an adult and asked for help for her friend, but maybe she thought he was too far gone at this point if he had stooped to calling her that word. I do concede that most of the time HP characters don't go to adults for help, but to me that is what was needed during this time. I think a qualified adult could have helped because I don't think he was too far gone. I think a lot of things were going on with him and around him. Lily may have just been too young to see this or too influenced by her housemates around her to be able to see it. I don't think she consciously caved in to any sort of peer pressure, but I do think we are all affected by the environment and the people around us. I don't think Lily is an exception to this even though she behaved in a fiercely independent way.

She could have gone to an adult and asked for help for her friend, but maybe she thought he was too far gone at this point if he had stooped to calling her that word. I do concede that most of the time HP characters don't go to adults for help, but to me that is what was needed during this time. I think a qualified adult could have helped because I don't think he was too far gone. I think a lot of things were going on with him and around him. Lily may have just been too young to see this or too influenced by her housemates around her to be able to see it. I don't think she consciously caved in to any sort of peer pressure, but I do think we are all affected by the environment and the people around us. I don't think Lily is an exception to this even though she behaved in a fiercely independent way.

We don't know if Lily did or didn't; unfortunately, we get very little on Lily. She may well have followed the HP tradition of kids not seeking adult help (which seems the most likely to me). Or she might have said something to Slughorn, who was both fond of her and Severus's Head of House (but I think Slughorn was unlikely to pursue any problem where Voldemrot was even peripherally involved). I don't think Hogwarts has ever had a counseling service set up. Basically it's just the teachers, and it depends on how much they are able or want to become involved. During this time I imagine that they were dealing with many students, as there was an entire gang of Death Eater wannabes and their victims, plus the children whose families had been victimized by the war (I'm thinking it must have been similar to what it was like during HBP). It's sad, but individuals who needed help could easily be lost in the volume, especially one who had no desire to be saved. I hope that the adults who run Hogwarts can set up something for the future, because it would be a great idea, in my opinion. Certainly I think it was beyond teen Lily's power to make Hogwarts have a counseling service to help Severus back then, or to make her friend accept counseling he did not want.

I didn't say or intend to mean that it was her responsibility to set up counseling for Hogwarts or to force Severus to accept counseling that apparently does not exist at Hogwarts. I specifically did not go into detail on that on purpose because it has more to do with Hogwarts as a school and Severus than it does about Lily.

Someone said she didn't see what else Lily could have done, and I suggested something else that she could have done that we didn't see. I don't see any evidence that she did, but of course it doesn't mean she didn't. I just think we would have seen some mention of it if she had. For example, she could have said something to him about seeing a teacher or his head of house about what was going on.

I agree that Slughorn probably wasn't keen on getting involved with anything that had to do with DEs and I personally don't think there is enough staff to deal with all that went on at Hogwarts but again that's a different topic. Just because these things may be true does not mean Lily realized it or could not have tried to get him some assistance or get advice herself. She could have handled things different, but I don't place blame on her for not doing so.

I'm not against this character and I'm not at all fond of pitting Severus against Lily or vice versa. Just to be clearer on where I am coming from concerning these characters.

However, I suggested something that she could have done, whether she did it or not is up for the reader to decide.

How do we know if she didn't tell them to leave her alone about Snape? And even so, I doubt many friends would take that as an answer because they were probably worried for her - I know I wouldn't, at least.

To have a "best friend" is to know that person deeply and personally enough to know what is in their heart. We are not just talking about Severus being regular friend -- someone she knew from home, but a "best friend" of at least 8 years by SWM. Lily knew him much better than any of the Gryffindors. She should have made it clear enough to her housemates that her "best friend" was trusted by her and to leave her alone about him. That's what "best friends" do.


But Remus only turns into a werewolf on the full moon. Snape is more than aware that Remus is far from the Gryffindor tower. IMO, his comment was based less on concern and more on trying to get Lily to not trust Remus (and his friends, for that matter).

I also disagree that being a werewolf is somehow worse than the possibility of being a werewolf. Remus had no choice in transforming into a werewolf and obviously never wanted to hurt someone if he could help it. Snape, on the other hand, was actually choosing to assist Voldemort. Having a condition that makes someone dangerous against their own will is completely different from someone who wants to join a group of people who aim to torture, control, and possess innocent people with Lily as one of the prime targets.

Remus was a werewolf, there was no "possibility" to it. During his transformation he had no knowledge of who he was as a human and was a dangerous being. He and his Animagi friends romped through the countryside and, according to Remus' own statement, could have put people into danger. Shouldn't Lily have been made aware of this type of behavior, and should she have been afraid for herself and others? Yes, Dumbledore set it up for Remus to go to the Shrieking Shack, but, that wasn't always the case, as we find out.

At the time of SWM, Severus had done nothing to anyone personally and was no threat. He was "into" the darks arts, but did not use them (at least there is no canon other than potentially biased statements from people who did not like him) that states he ever did anything. Even though he hung out with Mulciber and Avery, who were his housemates, Lily should not have automatically assumed that he just couldn't wait to become a DE. Again, "best friends," as Lily herself stated they were, know each other better than that.


But that's not necessarily the point. Lily is upset because she doesn't see how Snape could be friends with people so "evil," especially after whatever they did to Mary.

We don't know what was actually done to Mary, other than Lily states it was "dark magic." We don't even know that for sure, as we have only Lily's statement about it, no real description of what happened. Do we know if Lily saw it herself or whether she was told about it and told it was "dark magic"? Was it truly "evil." I do wish JKR had given more details about this inciident with Mary so we would know definitely one way or the other.

We know that other wizards dabbled in "dark magic" and went on to be OK, even though their friend did not. So, just hanging around with wanna-be DEs was not a guarantee that Severus was going to be one.



Since when was it a decision based on which friends were "better"? :huh: Lily didn't want to be friends with Snape because he was interested in joining Voldemort, found the Dark Arts amusing, and believed in pureblood supremacy while making her an exception to his beliefs. She never said that it had anything to do with her friends except that they couldn't understand why she'd be friends with him based on the previous reasons I gave.

Since Lily reassured Severus that they were still "best friends." Severus obviously did not believe in pureblood supremacy, since he called himeself "The Half-Blood Prince," emphasizing that he was half Muggle.

She did say it had to do with her friends when she stated that she kept having to defend him to her friends. That they were making derogatory remarks about her "best friend" and she was defending him tells me that she had not made it clear that she and Severus were best friends and that her other friends should leave it at that.

I see a bit of Gryffindor prejudice in her housemates trying to steer her away from Severus. I can imagine he was going through the same thing being asked why he would want to be friends with a "Mudblood."

It was not just name calling. He threw the worst insult he could have thrown at her. Moreover, he was going down the wrong path, one that she couldn't tolerate. How could she associate with someone who wanted to promote a regime that aimed to kill people like her and her family? She was so against that she ended up dedicating her life to fight Voldemort. That's a pretty legitimate reason to not be friends with someone, IMO.

Lily should have already known that Severus looked at her differently than other Muggleborns. When he told her it wouldn't make any difference that she was a Muggle, he was lying to protect her. He knew it made a difference. I'm sure she found that out when she got to Hogwarts. But, "best friends" overlook things, and, to Severus, Lily was special.

Lily and Severus were only in their fifth year. I don't think he was promoting Voldemort's regime at that time. My problem with Lily is that, while she claimed to be Severus' "best friend," she really didn't act like one. Even defending him on the day of SWM wasn't that much. She nearly laughed at his predicament, and, that is not the sign of a "best friend." Anyone with a bit of conscience, once the prank became more than just a bit of teasing, would probably have come to another student's rescue.

Again, I offer Harry and Co.; if Draco had done something like that to one of them. First, none of them would have laughed. Second, Draco would have paid a price of some sort -- they, or some of their friends (probably the twins) would have exacted a price sooner or later.

That's why my opinion is that Lily had already distanced herself from Severus and was letting the things she heard about him influence her. I think that she was starting to get a bit of a Gryffindor bias against Slytherins, which is understandable, since she was a Gryffindor and was surrounded by Gryffindors.


Of course it was an accident, Lily did hear him say that it "slipped out." She also pointed out that he made her an exception because he called other Muggleborns Mudbloods. But calling her a Mudblood was just a wake-up call to the person he was becoming and not the sole reason for breaking off her friendship.

Yes, she did point that out, while she was telling him what a chore it had become to stay friends with him and how she was tired of defending him to her other friends.

But, as his "best friend," she would have known whether there was true prejudice in his heart, or whether he was just going along with his housemates so he fit it. She should have been able to tell whether the Severus she'd known from before Hogwarts was capable of doing the things she Mulciber and Avery did. She should have known him better.

But, Lily didn't seem to be able to tell that, and also just didn't seem to want to bother with it anymore. That's not my opinion of a "best friend." Perhaps Lily had a different definition.

To have a "best friend" is to know that person deeply and personally enough to know what is in their heart. We are not just talking about Severus being regular friend -- someone she knew from home, but a "best friend" of at least 8 years by SWM. Lily knew him much better than any of the Gryffindors. She should have made it clear enough to her housemates that her "best friend" was trusted by her and to leave her alone about him. That's what "best friends" do.
I certainly agree. http://www.smileydesign.net/smileys/point11.gif

She could have gone to an adult and asked for help for her friend, but maybe she thought he was too far gone at this point if he had stooped to calling her that word. I do concede that most of the time HP characters don't go to adults for help, but to me that is what was needed during this time. I think a qualified adult could have helped because I don't think he was too far gone. I think a lot of things were going on with him and around him. Lily may have just been too young to see this or too influenced by her housemates around her to be able to see it. I don't think she consciously caved in to any sort of peer pressure, but I do think we are all affected by the environment and the people around us. I don't think Lily is an exception to this even though she behaved in a fiercely independent way.

It's a bit odd how no one in the series seems to do this. :hmm:

I think Lily might have been too young to realize that going to an adult would be a good idea. And, yes, if no one else ever went to adults for advice, Lily would be unknowingly influenced by this.

To have a "best friend" is to know that person deeply and personally enough to know what is in their heart. We are not just talking about Severus being regular friend -- someone she knew from home, but a "best friend" of at least 8 years by SWM. Lily knew him much better than any of the Gryffindors. She should have made it clear enough to her housemates that her "best friend" was trusted by her and to leave her alone about him. That's what "best friends" do.

I am aware that they were best friends, but I'm asking how you know that Lily didn't do exactly what you said. She told Snape that she had been defending him for years, so she may as well have explained her friends that she knew Snape better than them and that they should leave him alone.

He and his Animagi friends romped through the countryside and, according to Remus' own statement, could have put people into danger. Shouldn't Lily have been made aware of this type of behavior, and should she have been afraid for herself and others? Yes, Dumbledore set it up for Remus to go to the Shrieking Shack, but, that wasn't always the case, as we find out.

But how could she be made aware of that if Snape didn't know? All canon gives us is that Snape knew Remus was a werewolf, nothing more. If he knew that James, Sirius, and Peter were unregistered Animagi, he undoubtedly would have informed Dumbledore some point in his later life, especially when Sirius escaped.

So, seeing as he knows nothing except that Remus is a werewolf and transforms in the Shrieking Shack, how is it in his place to warn her if she's far away, safe in the Gryffindor tower? Actually, why was Snape even telling Lily that Remus was a werewolf when he was sworn not to, for Remus's safety? :huh: IMO, it's not in his place to tell Lily anything about Remus.

At the time of SWM, Severus had done nothing to anyone personally and was no threat. He was "into" the darks arts, but did not use them (at least there is no canon other than potentially biased statements from people who did not like him) that states he ever did anything. Even though he hung out with Mulciber and Avery, who were his housemates,

First, I have to argue that even if "extremely biased" people told Harry that he was into the Dark Arts, there is no proof to that contradicts this otherwise.

But it's not only an issue of whether or not Snape did anything. The fact that he was interested in a sadistic branch of magic is enough to reveal the kind of person Snape was. Added to that, he was becoming friends with people who were bad enough for Lily to call them evil.

Lily should not have automatically assumed that he just couldn't wait to become a DE. Again, "best friends," as Lily herself stated they were, know each other better than that.

But as his best friend, she may have picked up on clues that he was interested in Voldemort. Regulus was a bit obvious with it, so who's to say that Snape wasn't? And in any case, he did become a Death Eater, so she was right with her suspicions.

We don't know what was actually done to Mary, other than Lily states it was "dark magic." We don't even know that for sure, as we have only Lily's statement about it, no real description of what happened.

Is there anything that contradicts this? Why is this piece of information somehow less valid? I can't see why JKR would include this just for it to be untrue.

Do we know if Lily saw it herself or whether she was told about it and told it was "dark magic"? Was it truly "evil." I do wish JKR had given more details about this inciident with Mary so we would know definitely one way or the other.

Well, Mary was in her house and was on speaking terms with Lily, so it wouldn't be that hard for her to hear about what happened.

We know that other wizards dabbled in "dark magic" and went on to be OK, even though their friend did not. So, just hanging around with wanna-be DEs was not a guarantee that Severus was going to be one.

Do we know anyone who went on to be "ok"? Maybe the Malfoys and (presumably, if he did practice Dark Magic) Regulus, but they all did become bad, at least for a while. Or Umbridge who was never really a DE but was perhaps just as evil? I can't remember someone who used the Dark Arts and turned out completely "ok."

But, again, Lily might have picked up on clues that Snape was interested in the Dark Arts because they were that close. And he said nothing in defense when she assumed that he would become a DE, so she was right.

Since Lily reassured Severus that they were still "best friends." Severus obviously did not believe in pureblood supremacy, since he called himeself "The Half-Blood Prince," emphasizing that he was half Muggle.

How does having that title mean he did not believe in pureblood supremacy? He looked down at Petunia because she was a Muggle and Lily said that he called other Muggle-borns "Mudbloods." Even when he told Lily that it didn't matter that she was a Muggle-born, he hesitated before saying so.

She did say it had to do with her friends when she stated that she kept having to defend him to her friends.[.quote]

All that she said was that they didn't understand why she was friends with Snape and that she defended him. She never makes the choice between her friends or him - it was about who he was becoming as a person. Lily does end the conversation with "You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine," thereby stating that he was going down a different path than she was.

[quote]That they were making derogatory remarks about her "best friend" and she was defending him tells me that she had not made it clear that she and Severus were best friends and that her other friends should leave it at that.

I still fail to see where this comes from. For all we know, Lily could have told him that they were best friends and that they should leave him alone. Would that stop many friends if they believed someone was hanging out with someone who wasn't a good person? Probably not, which is why she would have had to defend them numerous times.

I see a bit of Gryffindor prejudice in her housemates trying to steer her away from Severus. I can imagine he was going through the same thing being asked why he would want to be friends with a "Mudblood."

Gryffindor prejudice in that he was a Slytherin? There is no proof that they questioned their friendship based on that.

Lily should have already known that Severus looked at her differently than other Muggleborns. When he told her it wouldn't make any difference that she was a Muggle, he was lying to protect her. He knew it made a difference. I'm sure she found that out when she got to Hogwarts. But, "best friends" overlook things, and, to Severus, Lily was special.

Lily knows she was an exception but that doesn't make it fine for her. What about the fact that he was calling other people by that derogatory term? It's not just about how he treated her in that instance, it was what his morals and beliefs were.

Lily and Severus were only in their fifth year. I don't think he was promoting Voldemort's regime at that time.

But Snape says nothing in his defense when Lily says that he can't wait to be a Death Eater, so it's pretty clear that he did promote what Voldemort was doing, IMO.

That's why my opinion is that Lily had already distanced herself from Severus and was letting the things she heard about him influence her. I think that she was starting to get a bit of a Gryffindor bias against Slytherins, which is understandable, since she was a Gryffindor and was surrounded by Gryffindors.

But her reasons for ending the friendship were clear. He was looking to join Voldemort, interested in the Dark Arts, and under the belief that Muggle-borns and Muggles were scum.

Had the friendship been based off a rivalry, why would Snape ever feel remorse for what he had done? The point in TPT, I think, was to show how his choices cost him his friendship with Lily and that he dedicated the rest of his life to trying to rectify that mistake.

But, as his "best friend," she would have known whether there was true prejudice in his heart, or whether he was just going along with his housemates so he fit it. She should have been able to tell whether the Severus she'd known from before Hogwarts was capable of doing the things she Mulciber and Avery did. She should have known him better.

He seemed to be prejudiced against Muggles ever since he was a child. And if he was pressured by his housemates then, well, so what? That is no excuse for what he did.

And I'd argue that she did know him well enough because everything she says about him turns out to be true. Even if we don't see him using the Dark Arts, he invented Sectumsempra and marked it "for enemies." Remus also mentions in DH that the spell was his specialty, meaning that he probably used it at least once before he accidentally hit George with the spell.

It's a bit odd how no one in the series seems to do this.
:lol: Actually, it's an extremely popular technique in writing children's books--and HP seems to follow the trend.

Personally, best friend or not, I don't think Lily was obligated to act or be a "proper" or "real" best friend given that her best friend wasn't really being one to her anyway.

:lol: Actually, it's an extremely popular technique in writing children's books--and HP seems to follow the trend.
I agree it is. And it oddly reflects some parts of real life, depending on who you talk to. Most of the kids I knew, including myself didn't really want the adults involved in their business.

It is said before that in SWM Lily, had she been a strong best friend, should have fought more for Severus, that Ginny and Hermione would have never tolerate this on Harry or Ron. But the thing is that by that time their frienship was no more the same Lily felt coldhearted enough to insult Severus after he had insulted her, they were more like people who just know each other but are not friends. By this time she was already affected by peer presure against Snape and by her own circumstances that were so opposite from his that made it for her very difficult to understand him. In other words she started to see him through the eyes of other people who cared less for Snape.
She didn't do it on purposse to get rid of him, but in the end they were separated anyways.

By her fifteen years she was becoming more and more the average teenange girl, cute, charismatic,popular, and with an easy life (remember war was outside Hogwarts not inside) and even her true character was still there, her fifteen years also made a temporary change in her. Snape felt this, he felt she was letting him back socially more and more, and he needed something to regain prestige in her eyes, and this was DE.
So the most Lily told him how he was being a burden for her lately, the most she considered his ways wrong and dissaproved for him, the most he clung to the DE in the wish or regaining some interest for her. He did not realized that that period of her life would be over and she would appreciate him by himself, and he didn't realize she would approve of him just with him leaving the dark arts. So the nearer they wanted to be the further they came.

It is said before that in SWM Lily, had she been a strong best friend, should have fought more for Severus, that Ginny and Hermione would have never tolerate this on Harry or Ron. But the thing is that by that time their frienship was no more the same Lily felt coldhearted enough to insult Severus after he had insulted her, they were more like people who just know each other but are not friends.
I understand this, but I would have talked to an adult or tried to help hm if he was my friend. :shrug:

I think it pretty much was an accident. Would you really say that Snape wanted to hurt Lily? No. He was furious and humiliated and so he lashed out at her. What he said was wrong, but not unforgivable.

How is bigotry against his best friend forgivable? How is it forgivable to consider her inferior scum, as that is what calling someone Mudblood means? Or considering her an exception, unlike other "Mudbloods"? I don't think any of that is forgivable. It might have been eventually forgivable if Snape had acknowledged that the whole mindset of considering others Mudbloods was wrong. Whereas he only felt it was wrong to call Lily a Mudblood, without acknowledging why he used that vile word so readily, or why he used it against others.

I think she probably felt that if he didn't call her a Mudblood, it meant there was still hope for him, and that's why she clung to the friendship even if she knew he was using the word on others, but when he used it on her it was a slap back to reality. I don't think she cared if it was said in anger, because the point is that it was a part of his vocabulary and he used it freely on others. I think SWM made her realize she was being naive about him.

I think that's likely. Lily had been trying to advise him that his friends were a bad influence, that they were a danger. She had been telling herself (and others) that Snape wasn't like them, that he was a better person than them, that he wasn't really prejudiced. To be the target of the most vile racist slur in the wizarding world was a wake-up call to her, I think. It showed her that Snape was no longer the innocent child she had befriended. He was no longer someone she could trust, and he wasn't someone with whom she shared core values.

I also disagree that being a werewolf is somehow worse than the possibility of being a werewolf. Remus had no choice in transforming into a werewolf and obviously never wanted to hurt someone if he could help it. Snape, on the other hand, was actually choosing to assist Voldemort. Having a condition that makes someone dangerous against their own will is completely different from someone who wants to join a group of people who aim to torture, control, and possess innocent people with Lily as one of the prime targets.

Agree, totally. Being a werewolf was not Lupin's choice, he didn't do so deliberately. Add to this, he was only a danger at full moon. The DEs, and the budding DEs at Hogwarts chose to act on their bigotry, they chose to view others as subhuman. And they weren't only a danger at full moon. They were a danger whenever they chose to be.

I do think it was the worst word, for her. This was during the war, with one side having Blood Purity on its agenda. I believe that what Lily said to Snape after he calls her "filthy little Mudblood" showed just how seriously she felt it was, given what was going on with Voldemort and his Death Eaters.

Yes, people like Lily were being murdered because people like Snape's friends decided they were unworthy to live.

It also put many things into clarity for her, I think. I think she realized how ugly the Blood Purity thing was, that it made a friend turn against her, and she saw just how perilous it was to be protected through being someone's "exception"; it only lasts as long as one stays in that person's good graces, and can be snatched away in a second for any reason.

I think Lily was completely right not to accept being an exception. How demeaning to be told that she only matters, because she matters to Snape. Ignoring the fact that she matters as a person in her own right - as do all the other Muggleborns.


I see a bit of Gryffindor prejudice in her housemates trying to steer her away from Severus. I can imagine he was going through the same thing being asked why he would want to be friends with a "Mudblood."

Gryffindor prejudice? Or concern that she was friends with someone who was also friends with budding DEs? The very people who thought she was unworthy to live?

Lily and Severus were only in their fifth year. I don't think he was promoting Voldemort's regime at that time. My problem with Lily is that, while she claimed to be Severus' "best friend," she really didn't act like one. Even defending him on the day of SWM wasn't that much. She nearly laughed at his predicament, and, that is not the sign of a "best friend." Anyone with a bit of conscience, once the prank became more than just a bit of teasing, would probably have come to another student's rescue.

And "best friends" don't hang around with people who think their "best friend" is subhuman. As Snape did, when he had friends like Mulciber and Avery.

But, as his "best friend," she would have known whether there was true prejudice in his heart, or whether he was just going along with his housemates so he fit it. She should have been able to tell whether the Severus she'd known from before Hogwarts was capable of doing the things she Mulciber and Avery did. She should have known him better.

Is there anything to say that all of Slytherin House was prejudiced, and that he had no choice but to befriend the budding DEs? And as Snape went on to become a DE, a man who didn't care what he did to a baby and his parents, Lily was correct in her beliefs about the path he was taking.

Personally, best friend or not, I don't think Lily was obligated to act or be a "proper" or "real" best friend given that her best friend wasn't really being one to her anyway.

I agree. A "best friend" doesn't consider their friend inferior. A "best friend" doesn't have other friends who think of her as scum, undeserving of magic, and even life. That was the kind of "best friend" Lily had. She tried to guide him away from people who considered her subhuman, when that didn't work, and their influence on him was made very clear to her, she saw that the friendship was no longer what it had been.

But the thing is that by that time their frienship was no more the same Lily felt coldhearted enough to insult Severus after he had insulted her, they were more like people who just know each other but are not friends.

How is Lily coldhearted, exactly? She had been betrayed, and humiliated by someone she should have been able to trust.

By this time she was already affected by peer presure against Snape and by her own circumstances that were so opposite from his that made it for her very difficult to understand him. In other words she started to see him through the eyes of other people who cared less for Snape.

By peer pressure against Snape, do you mean his bigoted friends, or Lily's friends, who were worried about her safety, considering who his other friends were?

By her fifteen years she was becoming more and more the average teenange girl, cute, charismatic,popular, and with an easy life (remember war was outside Hogwarts not inside) and even her true character was still there, her fifteen years also made a temporary change in her.

Even with war outside the walls of Hogwarts, she would have heard of what was going on, students would probably have lost family members, (as in HBP), and she was a Muggleborn, one of the prime targets of the war's genocide campaign. I can't imagine that she wasn't affected by the war.

It's a bit odd how no one in the series seems to do this. :hmm:

I think Lily might have been too young to realize that going to an adult would be a good idea. And, yes, if no one else ever went to adults for advice, Lily would be unknowingly influenced by this.

I have always been surprised that the students in the HP series did not go to teachers or other adults more often than they did, as well.


I am aware that they were best friends, but I'm asking how you know that Lily didn't do exactly what you said. She told Snape that she had been defending him for years, so she may as well have explained her friends that she knew Snape better than them and that they should leave him alone.

Because, if she had made that clear enough she would not have had to "keep defending" him. Her other friends would have gotten the message.


But how could she be made aware of that if Snape didn't know? All canon gives us is that Snape knew Remus was a werewolf, nothing more. If he knew that James, Sirius, and Peter were unregistered Animagi, he undoubtedly would have informed Dumbledore some point in his later life, especially when Sirius escaped.

So, seeing as he knows nothing except that Remus is a werewolf and transforms in the Shrieking Shack, how is it in his place to warn her if she's far away, safe in the Gryffindor tower? Actually, why was Snape even telling Lily that Remus was a werewolf when he was sworn not to, for Remus's safety? :huh: IMO, it's not in his place to tell Lily anything about Remus.

It was his suspicion and trying to find out what was going on that led to the tunnel incident that he was "saved" from.

I think that having a werewolf in the vicinity of Hogwarts might be considered an immediate danger, where, someone potentially becoming a DE years down the road is not.


First, I have to argue that even if "extremely biased" people told Harry that he was into the Dark Arts, there is no proof to that contradicts this otherwise.

But it's not only an issue of whether or not Snape did anything. The fact that he was interested in a sadistic branch of magic is enough to reveal the kind of person Snape was. Added to that, he was becoming friends with people who were bad enough for Lily to call them evil.

Dark Magic, of itself, is still just magic. It is how it's used that makes it "sadistic." If DADA teachers were not familiar with the Dark Arts, how would they be able to teach defenses against them? An interest in the Dark Arts itself does not guarantee that a person is going to use them negatively.


But as his best friend, she may have picked up on clues that he was interested in Voldemort. Regulus was a bit obvious with it, so who's to say that Snape wasn't? And in any case, he did become a Death Eater, so she was right with her suspicions.

If Lily was that perceptive, IMO, she would have known that Severus was just trying to impress her. (If he'd been perceptive, he'd have known that being interested in becoming a DE was not the right way to do that.)


Is there anything that contradicts this? Why is this piece of information somehow less valid? I can't see why JKR would include this just for it to be untrue.

Well, Mary was in her house and was on speaking terms with Lily, so it wouldn't be that hard for her to hear about what happened.

Since we do not really know what happened to Mary, there is nothing other than "word of mouth" either way. We never hear anything during the series about someone having Dark Magic used on them by another student. IMO, it may or may not have been "dark magic." That may have been an overexaggeration on the part of the person who related the story to Lily, even if it was Mary.


Do we know anyone who went on to be "ok"? Maybe the Malfoys and (presumably, if he did practice Dark Magic) Regulus, but they all did become bad, at least for a while. Or Umbridge who was never really a DE but was perhaps just as evil? I can't remember someone who used the Dark Arts and turned out completely "ok."

The person who dabbled in the Dark Arts and turned out to be about as OK as you can be would be Albus Dumbledore. He and his friend Grindelwald, who were going to subjugate Muggles for their own good. It was the death of his sister that showed him the error of his ways.


But, again, Lily might have picked up on clues that Snape was interested in the Dark Arts because they were that close. And he said nothing in defense when she assumed that he would become a DE, so she was right.

Lots of things transpired between the time Lily accused Severus of wanting to become a DE and his actually becoming one. I, personally, don't think that either of them was in tune enough with the other to be able to read one another that well at the time of SWM. I think they had drifted too far apart by that time.


How does having that title mean he did not believe in pureblood supremacy? He looked down at Petunia because she was a Muggle and Lily said that he called other Muggle-borns "Mudbloods." Even when he told Lily that it didn't matter that she was a Muggle-born, he hesitated before saying so.

Because he knew that many in the wizarding world, who were not even followers of Voldemort, and would probably not have hurt a Muggle, still thought that wizards and witches were superior to Muggles. He also knew that there were blood purists who really hated Muggles and "Mudbloods" in particular.

Had he been ashamed of not being a pureblood, I seriously doubt he would have used the term "half-blood." To me, this shows that he was not ashamed that he was part Muggle.


All that she said was that they didn't understand why she was friends with Snape and that she defended him. She never makes the choice between her friends or him - it was about who he was becoming as a person. Lily does end the conversation with "You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine," thereby stating that he was going down a different path than she was.

I may have worded it incorrectly, but, that's what I thought I said. She told him that she was tired of having to defend their friendship to others. I don't think I said she chose her other friends over him. I guess I just don't think that Lily's claim that she considered Severus her "best friend" was accurate. Maybe some people are just more willing to go farther for "best friends" than others.

I still fail to see where this comes from. For all we know, Lily could have told him that they were best friends and that they should leave him alone. Would that stop many friends if they believed someone was hanging out with someone who wasn't a good person? Probably not, which is why she would have had to defend them numerous times.

Since we have no canon for this, I guess we believe what we believe about Lily. IMO, a "best friend" would believe me over other "friends."


Gryffindor prejudice in that he was a Slytherin? There is no proof that they questioned their friendship based on that.

There's no proof that it wasn't, either. We do have canon showing that some Gryffindors were extremely prejudiced against Slyterins, and vice versa. Whether Lily's friends were among these, we aren't told. So we don't know for sure either way that prejudice against Slytherin wasn't part of it.


Lily knows she was an exception but that doesn't make it fine for her. What about the fact that he was calling other people by that derogatory term? It's not just about how he treated her in that instance, it was what his morals and beliefs were.

If Lily had truly known her friend, she would have known his morals and beliefs from the time they were small children. She would have known what it took for him to fit in to the House he was sorted into. She would have known that he was not an evil person. However, she seemed to have lost the connection that allowed her to sense that by SWM.


But Snape says nothing in his defense when Lily says that he can't wait to be a Death Eater, so it's pretty clear that he did promote what Voldemort was doing, IMO.

IMO, he sensed by Lily's tone that she was not going to be receptive to much of what he had to say, so he just gave up trying to reason with her or explain any more.

But her reasons for ending the friendship were clear. He was looking to join Voldemort, interested in the Dark Arts, and under the belief that Muggle-borns and Muggles were scum.

Did she really know that for sure? Being in Slytherin House, he was surrounded by others who were eager to reach an age to join Voldemort. But, other than using a terrible racial slur, which cannot be defended (I won't cut Severus any slack there because even using it to "fit in" was wrong) I don't know what other proof she had that he was planning to be a DE.

Had the friendship been based off a rivalry, why would Snape ever feel remorse for what he had done? The point in TPT, I think, was to show how his choices cost him his friendship with Lily and that he dedicated the rest of his life to trying to rectify that mistake.

I don't think the friendship was based off rivalry. Severus loved Lily. He tried to save her life after he put her in danger. When she died, he did spend his entire life trying to rectify his mistake. I'm more inclined to believe that he wanted Harry to know what he had gone through to make up for what he had done, rather than how his choices had driven Lily away.

He seemed to be prejudiced against Muggles ever since he was a child. And if he was pressured by his housemates then, well, so what? That is no excuse for what he did.

I can't say for sure, but, IMO, having an abusive Muggle for a father might have had something to do with his feelings about them. But, if he was so prejudiced against them, why would he seek out a "Mudblood" as a friend?

And I'd argue that she did know him well enough because everything she says about him turns out to be true. Even if we don't see him using the Dark Arts, he invented Sectumsempra and marked it "for enemies." Remus also mentions in DH that the spell was his specialty, meaning that he probably used it at least once before he accidentally hit George with the spell.

I'm afraid I would still say that she did not know him well enough at the time of SWM to be able to tell what was really in his heart. Lily was young, so she may not have been able to discern that being interested in the Dark Arts, even inventing spells, does not make an individual an evil person if that magic isn't used negatively. We only see one incidence of Severus using a spell that might be considered "dark," and that was in self-defense.

Once again, Remus was not an objective source of information. I don't say he was lying, I just feel that his view was not without prejudice. I'm not sure how many times someone has to use a spell for it to be considered a "specialty."

We can keep writing these back and forth, and we are not going to agree. I respect your view, even though we interpret the story differently.

How is it forgivable to consider her inferior scum,
Hold up now. :lol: It's really quite obvious that he doesn't consider her 'scum' as he's in love with her and dies trying to protect a man he hates, all just in her name. I suppose that doesn't mean anything in the face of his 'Mudblood' accident when he was furious and distressed?

Hold up now. :lol: It's really quite obvious that he doesn't consider her 'scum' as he's in love with her and dies trying to protect a man he hates, all just in her name. I suppose that doesn't mean anything in the face of his 'Mudblood' accident when he was furious and distressed?
The dying and trying to protect a man he hates doesn't happen until later in life when Snape finally turned away from being a DE. Younger Snape isn't at that point yet.

To be frank, I find the furious and distressed excuse to be pretty faulty. It's pretty much the "intent excuse" which if a person doesn't really mean it, it shouldn't be considered offensive. (And this excuse is overused so much in real life.) No one ever says a bigoted word or phrase by "accident" unless they already have deep seated bigoted beliefs against the people they're offending. And word mudblood is the equivalent of someone being "scum" or just unworthy.

But back to Lily...

Given the context of the story, time, and politics of the wizarding world, I think Lily had every reason to be angry and offended at what Snape did, and the choices she made came from that. This was a type of discrimination directed at her. I think a lot of us in real life and even within the story have our own way of how we handle such things. This was Lily's based on how she felt and her priorities. And I think she has the right to execute that the way she wanted, just like the rest of us do.

Lily and Severus were only in their fifth year. I don't think he was promoting Voldemort's regime at that time. My problem with Lily is that, while she claimed to be Severus' "best friend," she really didn't act like one. Even defending him on the day of SWM wasn't that much. She nearly laughed at his predicament, and, that is not the sign of a "best friend." Anyone with a bit of conscience, once the prank became more than just a bit of teasing, would probably have come to another student's rescue.
I agree. If Lily had been Snape's "best friend", she would have had him sit down and tell her everything that happened, or at least try to understand why he was so upset over the constant ribbing he got. We even see that she doesnt even ask him what really happened during the werewolf incident. We know he wasnt allowed to talk about it but she doesnt ask him "what happened? Why is this so important, what really happened that night?" She nearly takes the other side on that and that really bothered me. Best friends dont do that. Sure Snape was wrong for calling her the dreaded name, but it was an outburst. She didnt even try to understand the incident as it happened.

I agree. If Lily had been Snape's "best friend", she would have had him sit down and tell her everything that happened, or at least try to understand why he was so upset over the constant ribbing he got. We even see that she doesnt even ask him what really happened during the werewolf incident. We know he wasnt allowed to talk about it but she doesnt ask him "what happened? Why is this so important, what really happened that night?" She nearly takes the other side on that and that really bothered me. Best friends dont do that. Sure Snape was wrong for calling her the dreaded name, but it was an outburst. She didnt even try to understand the incident as it happened.

Very well put.

While I understand and appreciate her extreme anger at Severus, IMO, a "best friend" would have taken into account the situation and what was going on with him at the time he said it. She was there. She saw all that had happened.

I think about how close Harry, Ron, and Hermoine were. Ron said many hurtful things to Harry just before he left them searching for the Horcruxes in DH. But, when he came back Harry welcomed him. Hermoine made him pay with some pouting, but, she was glad he was back as well. That is truly what "best friends" are.

I didn't see that same understanding in Lily.

I think about how close Harry, Ron, and Hermoine were. Ron said many hurtful things to Harry just before he left them searching for the Horcruxes in DH. But, when he came back Harry welcomed him. Hermoine made him pay with some pouting, but, she was glad he was back as well. That is truly what "best friends" are.
Precisely. It makes me think Lily didnt want to be his friend anymore long before SWM even happened. It also shows a lack of perception on her part because of what happens much later with Pettigrew. Of course, the whole lot of them didnt see that coming but im sure there were signs. Judging from Lily's letter, she tells Sirius "Wormy seems down" but yeah...no one questions him, not even her!

Very well put.

While I understand and appreciate her extreme anger at Severus, IMO, a "best friend" would have taken into account the situation and what was going on with him at the time he said it. She was there. She saw all that had happened.

I think about how close Harry, Ron, and Hermoine were. Ron said many hurtful things to Harry just before he left them searching for the Horcruxes in DH. But, when he came back Harry welcomed him. Hermoine made him pay with some pouting, but, she was glad he was back as well. That is truly what "best friends" are.

I didn't see that same understanding in Lily.

I agree with you upto some point but the fact that Harry, Ron and Hermione were all in the same house, helped. Also, the attraction between Ron and Hermione was mutual while it might not have been the case with Severus and Lily.

To be quite frank, I think that J.K.Rowling could easily have written a book on 'Prince's Tale' and the information she handed in Deathly Hallows, is just enough to move the 'Harry Potter' plot forward and does not do justice to the Severus-Lily angle. Maybe, their relation broke after a prolonged period of tension and J.K.R. just mentioned the breaking point. We might never know. But, I agree with you that the 'best friends' don't break up over such a miniscule incident and neither does it break due to peer (Gryffindor friends) pressure. This is one of the major reasons why Deathly Hallows left me unsatisfied...:(

While I understand and appreciate her extreme anger at Severus, IMO, a "best friend" would have taken into account the situation and what was going on with him at the time he said it. She was there. She saw all that had happened.
This is, again, completely disregarding everything else Snape did. I think Lily would have been willing to forgive him had he not been calling every other Muggleborn "Mudblood", hanging around cruel people, and having a light attitude towards the dark arts. This is all extremely relevant. Her breaking off the friendship was not based on SWM alone by any means.

I think about how close Harry, Ron, and Hermoine were. Ron said many hurtful things to Harry just before he left them searching for the Horcruxes in DH. But, when he came back Harry welcomed him. Hermoine made him pay with some pouting, but, she was glad he was back as well. That is truly what "best friends" are.
I agree that's what best friends are. But Snape wasn't being a best friend to Lily; he was disregarding her views and her feelings by hanging around people who would gladly have her killed--it was no light issue, it was a time of war. How was she supposed to take this? Was she supposed to just shrug it off and be understanding that he was using the worst insult on everyone else of her birth for whatever reason?

I feel this is expecting Lily to lose all respect for herself and her fellow Muggleborns and to ditch her views out the window. This should not be a requirement in any relationship. I think Lily showed ample amounts of kindness and friendship towards Snape by tolerating his behaviour for years and trying to defend him to the last. But he rejected her help and disrespected her in the worst way possible. I'd take Lily's friendship over Snape's for sure, in any case.

I do find the fact that Lily never asked Severus anything about what happened the night James saved him, to be very strange behaviour for a close friend. I think this shows some evidence that from Lily's point of view the friendship was becoming strained. I understand that she feels he is getting involved with bad and dangerous company (Mulciber and Avery), but from what she says she doesn't seem to think he is like them as she never accuses him of using Dark Magic like she does Mulciber.

I also find Lily's reaction to Severus calling her "Mudblood" interesting as she doesn't seem too upset that he had been insulting other Muggle-borns. It is only when he insults her and it becomes personal that she gets upset. Now, I'm not defending Severus' use of the word here it was very wrong and the ideology behind it utterly appalling, even if it was spat out in a fit of anger. I just thought it interesting that Lily was still his friend even though she knew he had been insulting other Muggle-borns like her.

I also find Lily's reaction to Severus calling her "Mudblood" interesting as she doesn't seem too upset that he had been insulting other Muggle-borns. It is only when he insults her and it becomes personal that she gets upset. Now, I'm not defending Severus' use of the word here it was very wrong and the ideology behind it utterly appalling, even if it was spat out in a fit of anger. I just thought it interesting that Lily was still his friend even though she knew he had been insulting other Muggle-borns like her.

Which is where the 'making excuses for years' comes in. I don't think Lily wanted to believe the worst in Snape. He was her friend. So when he insulted her personally, it was the first time she could no longer ignore the facts.

I think it is very hard to tell what Lily was like in reality because other than a couple of memories we have seen all we know of Lily comes from what people have told Harry and people are hardly going to tell Harry about Lily's negative points (as no one told harry about his father's negative points).

Which is where the 'making excuses for years' comes in. I don't think Lily wanted to believe the worst in Snape. He was her friend. So when he insulted her personally, it was the first time she could no longer ignore the facts.

I agree. Of course as her friend Lily doesn't want to believe the worst of Severus. And,I think she must have seen a side of him for her to want remain his friend for all those years and was prepared to turn a blind eye, even though she knew what was going on.

Which is where the 'making excuses for years' comes in. I don't think Lily wanted to believe the worst in Snape. He was her friend. So when he insulted her personally, it was the first time she could no longer ignore the facts.

That's exactly how I see it, too. She saw the good in him and didn't want to acknowledge the bad, quite understandably I think. If he was nice to her and she was a Muggleborn, she must have felt he wasn't like his friends, he was different--but when he stopped being nice to her and called her a Mudblood, she realized there wasn't a difference anymore. There were no excuses to be made anymore, to her friends and to herself.

1. Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

This question interested me the most because I have been thinking about this for a long time. It seems that Severus, knowing Lily was a Muggle, was more careful with what he said around her. For example, we can tell he thinks of Petunia as a second-class human being when he almost say 'She's only a Muggle', however he never finishes the sentence, so as not to insult Lily. This, and the fact that Lily made friends in Gryffindor who were opposed to the anti-Muggle views of the Slytherins and Snape's friends, suggests that she wasn't aware of such prejudice against Muggles and Muggle-borns etc. before she went to Hogwarts, which could have been the case as it was Severus who first introduced her to the magical world. On the other hand, Draco Malfoy, for example, has grown up with Muggle-hating views, and so comes to Hogwarts with an aloof air and pride at being 'pure-blood', and it is also Draco who introduces Harry to such views (and also to the term 'Mudblood' in the second book).

Also, as some people have already said, it must have been reassuring for Lily to have a friend of her own age who himself is going to into Hogwarts for the first time, and who knows about the magical world, rather than Harry, who only had a lying aunt and vicious, 'magic-squashing' uncle.

Another point to make is that Severus, who could not wait to leave his miserable life and go to Hogwarts (as we see with Voldemort and Harry), must have taught Lily mostly good things about the magical world, and especially Hogwarts, as he was so keen to go there. Severus' views must have put the wizarding world into a positive light for Lily, and, as others have said before, Severus understand Lily, because he knew what she was. Others, such as Petunia, must have thought of her as a freak, but Lily must have put a great deal of trust into Severus, as he was really the first person to 'accept' her, as it was.

gingerbreadgirl, I think that was a very insightful post.

Another point to make is that Severus, who could not wait to leave his miserable life and go to Hogwarts (as we see with Voldemort and Harry), must have taught Lily mostly good things about the magical world, and especially Hogwarts, as he was so keen to go there. Severus' views must have put the wizarding world into a positive light for Lily, and, as others have said before, Severus understand Lily, because he knew what she was. Others, such as Petunia, must have thought of her as a freak, but Lily must have put a great deal of trust into Severus, as he was really the first person to 'accept' her, as it was.

It must have been a shock to Lily to find out that just like some considered her a freak in her Muggle world because she had magic, some considered her the same way in the Wizarding world because she was Muggleborn. I think she was hurt very deeply by Petunia's attitude. I can understand why she would try so hard to keep her childhood friendship with Severus going and try for so long to pretend he wasn't falling deeper into the Blood predudice. I think it was like the situation with Petunia all over again-- it was like Lily getting her heart ripped out, twice over, by the people she had thought she could love and trust.

gingerbreadgirl, I think that was a very insightful post.



It must have been a shock to Lily to find out that just like some considered her a freak in her Muggle world because she had magic, some considered her the same way in the Wizarding world because she was Muggleborn. I think she was hurt very deeply by Petunia's attitude. I can understand why she would try so hard to keep her childhood friendship with Severus going and try for so long to pretend he wasn't falling deeper into the Blood predudice. I think it was like the situation with Petunia all over again-- it was like Lily getting her heart ripped out, twice over, by the people she had thought she could love and trust.

Thank you :)

Yes, exactly! Lily was such a kind-hearted and honourable person, as we can see, she befriended 'misfits' such as Severus and Remus, she must also have been very tolerant, so when Severus delivered that final blow, as it were, by calling her a 'Mudblood', that was probably the 'last straw' for her, as someone else has said. I think we've all had that special someone breach our trust in that way, and that must have hurt Lily so much, as you said, but by then she had a pretty extensive knowledge of the wizarding world, more so than others (just like Hermione), so, in a sense, she didn't really need Severus after that.

Another point to make is that Severus, who could not wait to leave his miserable life and go to Hogwarts (as we see with Voldemort and Harry), must have taught Lily mostly good things about the magical world, and especially Hogwarts, as he was so keen to go there. Severus' views must have put the wizarding world into a positive light for Lily, and, as others have said before, Severus understand Lily, because he knew what she was. Others, such as Petunia, must have thought of her as a freak, but Lily must have put a great deal of trust into Severus, as he was really the first person to 'accept' her, as it was.

This is a really excellent point, in particular, the part that I highlighted.

Here are two people growing up in another of JKR's parallels.

Severus is looking for escape from a miserable home life, and being a wizard in a Muggle world that he doesn't fit into.

Lily is a Muggle with powers that she doesn't understand and a sister who is extremely jealous of them.

Since we only see a couple of times when Severus is watching Lily, it's not clear, but it seems that she doesn't have other friends besides her sister.

So, here they are, each looking for acceptance and friendship. Since Severus has seen Lily doing magic, he knows what she is and takes the first step. We see in TPT how difficult this was for him and how awkward he was at interacting with other people. He's also described as physically unattractive.

Lily may have been able to look past the ridiculous outfit, the greasy hair, the awkwardness, and see something special in Severus. Or, she might have been so glad to have another magic friend that she overlooked his negatives the way he overlooked her being a Muggleborn.

Being a half-blood, Severus is familiar with the Wizarding World. But, as you pointed out, he only introduces Lily to the positives. His attitude toward Petunia tells us that he has negative feelings toward Muggles, but, it is never clearly explained whether this is due to the friction between his parents or because he was being taught prejudice against them. IMO, it is the former. If his mother was prejudiced against Muggles, I doubt that she would have married one.

So, each was looking for acceptance, and found it in the other one. They became "best friends," and evidentally remained such for several years. This may have been strengthened a bit by Petunia's estrangement from Lily after she left for Hogwarts. That seems to have continued on, even after Lily's death.

It isn't until their fifth year that we see a very large rift opening up between Lily and Severus.

We see how deeply Severus loved Lily and what he went through, first to try to save her life after inavertently putting it in danger, and, later, to protect her son and vanquish the evil wizard who killed her.

My question is: If, as Lily stated to Severus, they were "best friends," why didn't she take more action if she saw him going down the wrong path for so long? It seems that SWM is the first time she has brought up her extreme dislike of his friendship with Mulciber and Avery, or his using the term "Mudblood" against other students.

IMO, there were several reasons that he didn't answer her when she threw at him that he couldn't wait to become a DE: it caught him off guard because she'd never mentioned it before; he knew her well enough to know the tone she was using meant that she wasn't going to listen to any explanation; he saw her becomng the focus of a B.M.O.C. and, when she wouldn't listen about his concerns about that and his friends, he knew it was no good going on.

If Lily heard him using the "Mudblood" term to others, I don't see her as hesitant to confront him about it. And, his using it at her should have indicated that he wasn't steeped in the ideology behind it. He was just stiking out during a very stressful situation.

He seemed surprised at her concerns about his friendship with Mulciber and Avery or his interest in the dark arts (being "interested" in them does not mean you are going to use them negatively). I think this indicates that they had never discussed these things before. Since, again, I don't see Lily as afraid to confront him about this, I wonder why she didn't before SWM? To me, that is what a "best friend" would do, rather than just defending her friendship with him against negative remarks by her housemates and other friends.

And, knowing that your best friend had been "saved" from nearly being killed, I would think she would have at least tried to discuss it. But, we see no indication of this in their conversation at the Gryffindor entrance.

I, personally, do not think that Lily's feeling for Severus were ever more than just friends. They may have been "best friends" for a while, but once they started school and she found other witches and wizards I think she started losing interest in him and just didn't know how to let him down easily. I see her "defense" of their friendship a bit half-hearted, and, that she was just going through the motions for the last year or so of their relationship. I think she was waiting for a time, possibly after the O.W.L.S. so as not to add stress to that situation, to break off their friendship. Or, maybe she was just going to let it go and die on its own. But, when he flung a racial slur at her, IMO, this gave her the chance to cut it off and to say the things that she wanted to say for a while.

Just my opinions, of course.

[QUOTE=FurryDice;5588771


Gryffindor prejudice? Or concern that she was friends with someone who was also friends with budding DEs? The very people who thought she was unworthy to live?



Is there anything to say that all of Slytherin House was prejudiced, and that he had no choice but to befriend the budding DEs? And as Snape went on to become a DE, a man who didn't care what he did to a baby and his parents, Lily was correct in her beliefs about the path he was taking.


I agree. A "best friend" doesn't consider their friend inferior. A "best friend" doesn't have other friends who think of her as scum, undeserving of magic, and even life. That was the kind of "best friend" Lily had. She tried to guide him away from people who considered her subhuman, when that didn't work, and their influence on him was made very clear to her, she saw that the friendship was no longer what it had been.



How is Lily coldhearted, exactly? She had been betrayed, and humiliated by someone she should have been able to trust.



By peer pressure against Snape, do you mean his bigoted friends, or Lily's friends, who were worried about her safety, considering who his other friends were?



Even with war outside the walls of Hogwarts, she would have heard of what was going on, students would probably have lost family members, (as in HBP), and she was a Muggleborn, one of the prime targets of the war's genocide campaign. I can't imagine that she wasn't affected by the war.[/QUOTE]

He insulted her in a moment of humilliation, she must have felt wounded, but in honor to their old frienship she should not had taken the offensive, by doing this she was standing in his own heigh (doing the same he did).

By peer pressure I mean Lily's friends, who I believe didn't know enough of Snape to know if he was really a DE but just with the though of him being Slytherin already didn't like. Remember even Sirius couldn't tell Harry if Snape had been a real DE or not, and this was after the war and Sirius did probably watched Snape closely. So for sure Lily's friends didn't know they were only supposing based on his house and on whom was he hanging around.

And yes, the war was influencing life at Hogwarts in Lily's time, but this didn't prevent Harry, Ron and Hermione to behave like teenangers in HBP under similar situations, why would it prevent Lily?

"Best friends" don't hang around with people who consider your "best friend" unworthy of living, but this "best friend" had to survive in a hostile environment, wich is something Lily is not taking in account. Maybe Snape chose the wrong way to survive, but he had not really very good options either.

My question is: If, as Lily stated to Severus, they were "best friends," why didn't she take more action if she saw him going down the wrong path for so long? It seems that SWM is the first time she has brought up her extreme dislike of his friendship with Mulciber and Avery, or his using the term "Mudblood" against other students.

She was seeing it coming, but she didn't really know how grave the situation was, she tried to convince him but was inefective, finally yes, she chose the easiest path, but I don't believe she had planned it on, it was just something that happened. Maybe they would have been friends for long if that incident didn't happen and he woulden't join the DE, then maybe their frienship would have streghtened with time (this is not a prediction, is just to ilustrate what kind of relationship they had and in wich point of it were they in SWM in my oppinion)

Because, if she had made that clear enough she would not have had to "keep defending" him. Her other friends would have gotten the message.

if they were concerned about who she was friends with, they would not have given up. Friendship isn't about letting your friend dig themselves into trouble. Lily tried to point out the kind of company Snape was keeping, but he wasn't interested. Lily's friends did the same for her.

I think that having a werewolf in the vicinity of Hogwarts might be considered an immediate danger, where, someone potentially becoming a DE years down the road is not.

I don't see the logic that a young man who wants to join a genocidal terrorist gang isn't a danger until he has the Dark Mark. If that is what someone intends to do, they're a danger.



Dark Magic, of itself, is still just magic. It is how it's used that makes it "sadistic." If DADA teachers were not familiar with the Dark Arts, how would they be able to teach defenses against them? An interest in the Dark Arts itself does not guarantee that a person is going to use them negatively.

I imagine DADA teachers are usually familiar with Dark Arts in the same way police are familiar with crime, and the methods of criminals. By studying and opposing them, not by taking part in crime themselves.


Since we do not really know what happened to Mary, there is nothing other than "word of mouth" either way. We never hear anything during the series about someone having Dark Magic used on them by another student. IMO, it may or may not have been "dark magic." That may have been an overexaggeration on the part of the person who related the story to Lily, even if it was Mary.

What grounds are there to assume that someone is lying or exaggerating if they have anything negative to say about Snape, or about his friends, Mulciber and Avery?

Hold up now. :lol: It's really quite obvious that he doesn't consider her 'scum' as he's in love with her and dies trying to protect a man he hates, all just in her name. I suppose that doesn't mean anything in the face of his 'Mudblood' accident when he was furious and distressed?

That is what Mudblood means. It's a disgusting racial insult, the equivalent of the worst racial insults in the real world. It's not petty name-calling and it's not "no big deal". It means that the victim has "dirty blood", that they're inferior and scum. That's what it means to call someone a Mudblood. And being in love with her doesn't mean he respects her. If he considers her an exception to his prejudices, he certainly doesn't respect her. It's saying she only matters because he loves her, not because she matters as a human being in her own right.



Precisely. It makes me think Lily didnt want to be his friend anymore long before SWM even happened. It also shows a lack of perception on her part because of what happens much later with Pettigrew. Of course, the whole lot of them didnt see that coming but im sure there were signs. Judging from Lily's letter, she tells Sirius "Wormy seems down" but yeah...no one questions him, not even her!

Yes, Lily was wrong about Pettigrew (as was everyone else). However, that doesn't say she was also wrong about Snape. He was engaging in bigoted behaviour, he was involved in Dark Magic, he was hanging out with DE wannabes and did go on join Voldemort.

[QUOTE=LilyDreamsOn;5588995]This is, again, completely disregarding everything else Snape did. I think Lily would have been willing to forgive him had he not been calling every other Muggleborn "Mudblood", hanging around cruel people, and having a light attitude towards the dark arts. This is all extremely relevant. Her breaking off the friendship was not based on SWM alone by any means.

Yeah, there were other factors. "Mudblood" was simply the straw that broke the camel's back. The one thing that showed her that Snape wasn't going to listen to her advice about his friends, that he didn't respect her. It put the other things into perspective, I imagine. It showed her that she couldn't deny the evidence she was seeing any longer. I think.


I agree that's what best friends are. But Snape wasn't being a best friend to Lily; he was disregarding her views and her feelings by hanging around people who would gladly have her killed--it was no light issue, it was a time of war. How was she supposed to take this? Was she supposed to just shrug it off and be understanding that he was using the worst insult on everyone else of her birth for whatever reason?

I agree. Snape wasn't being a friend to Lily by hanging around people who considered her scum. That isn't friendship, that's selfishly wanting to have his cake and eat it.

I feel this is expecting Lily to lose all respect for herself and her fellow Muggleborns and to ditch her views out the window. This should not be a requirement in any relationship. I think Lily showed ample amounts of kindness and friendship towards Snape by tolerating his behaviour for years and trying to defend him to the last. But he rejected her help and disrespected her in the worst way possible. I'd take Lily's friendship over Snape's for sure, in any case.

That's problematic, yes, I agree. Lily's core values and Snape's were at odds. She was opposed to Dark Magic, prejudice and Voldemort; whereas that is the direction Snape was taking. I don't see why she should sacrifice her principles.


It must have been a shock to Lily to find out that just like some considered her a freak in her Muggle world because she had magic, some considered her the same way in the Wizarding world because she was Muggleborn. I think she was hurt very deeply by Petunia's attitude. I can understand why she would try so hard to keep her childhood friendship with Severus going and try for so long to pretend he wasn't falling deeper into the Blood predudice. I think it was like the situation with Petunia all over again-- it was like Lily getting her heart ripped out, twice over, by the people she had thought she could love and trust.

That's a very interesting parallel. Someone she should have been able to trust in the Muggle world considered her a freak, and now, she had just been shown that someone she should have been able to trust in the wizarding world considered her a "filthy little Mudblood".

Thank you :)

Yes, exactly! Lily was such a kind-hearted and honourable person, as we can see, she befriended 'misfits' such as Severus and Remus, she must also have been very tolerant, so when Severus delivered that final blow, as it were, by calling her a 'Mudblood', that was probably the 'last straw' for her, as someone else has said. I think we've all had that special someone breach our trust in that way, and that must have hurt Lily so much, as you said, but by then she had a pretty extensive knowledge of the wizarding world, more so than others (just like Hermione), so, in a sense, she didn't really need Severus after that.

I think to say that Lily didn't need Snape is to imply that she was using him prior to that. A person always needs their friends, but Snape's behaviour wasn't that of a friend. A "best friend" to Lily wouldn't befriend people who considered Muggleborns to be subhuman. Any friend at all of Lily's wouldn't do that. It's a huge betrayal of friendship. The only reasons I can see for Lily not ending the friendship as soon as Snape started hanging out with the bigots are maybe she was sure he wasn't like Mulciber and Avery; maybe she wanted to hold onto her oldest friend; or maybe she was in denial about the person he was becoming.


We see how deeply Severus loved Lily and what he went through, first to try to save her life after inavertently putting it in danger, and, later, to protect her son and vanquish the evil wizard who killed her.

He inadvertently put Lily and her family in danger, but he deliberately put somebody in danger. That kind of moral relativism is the same kind of behaviour that saw him considering Lily an exception to his prejudice against Muggleborns. That is not a safe friend to have.

My question is: If, as Lily stated to Severus, they were "best friends," why didn't she take more action if she saw him going down the wrong path for so long? It seems that SWM is the first time she has brought up her extreme dislike of his friendship with Mulciber and Avery, or his using the term "Mudblood" against other students.

Lily had previously said that she considered Mulciber and Avery's actions "evil" and that she didn't know why Snape was friends with them. If "evil" isn't voicing extreme dislike, I truly don't know what is. :hmm:

He seemed surprised at her concerns about his friendship with Mulciber and Avery or his interest in the dark arts (being "interested" in them does not mean you are going to use them negatively). I think this indicates that they had never discussed these things before. Since, again, I don't see Lily as afraid to confront him about this, I wonder why she didn't before SWM? To me, that is what a "best friend" would do, rather than just defending her friendship with him against negative remarks by her housemates and other friends.

What way is there to use Dark Arts other than negatively? Unforgivable Curses, Sectumsempra, Voldemort's regeneration potion. These are some of the examples of Dark Magic in the series. Defence Against the Dart Arts is taught. It doesn't become just Dark Arts until Voldemort takes over. I don't see anything positive about Dark Arts.


He insulted her in a moment of humilliation, she must have felt wounded, but in honor to their old frienship she should not had taken the offensive, by doing this she was standing in his own heigh (doing the same he did).

By peer pressure I mean Lily's friends, who I believe didn't know enough of Snape to know if he was really a DE

They knew the kind of people he was hanging around with, and imo, that was enough. It's like knowing that someone hangs around with drug dealers. That's not someone your friend is going to be safe around.

And I find it more than a little disturbing that racial insults are being excused, either as no big deal if Lily was a "real friend" or as something that was understandable because Snape was under stress. That excuse doesn't wash, imo. If something is wrong, it is still wrong, even if it's done under stress. And I doubt Snape was under stress each and every time he called someone a Mudblood.

I, personally, do not think that Lily's feeling for Severus were ever more than just friends. They may have been "best friends" for a while, but once they started school and she found other witches and wizards I think she started losing interest in him and just didn't know how to let him down easily. I see her "defense" of their friendship a bit half-hearted, and, that she was just going through the motions for the last year or so of their relationship. I think she was waiting for a time, possibly after the O.W.L.S. so as not to add stress to that situation, to break off their friendship. Or, maybe she was just going to let it go and die on its own. But, when he flung a racial slur at her, IMO, this gave her the chance to cut it off and to say the things that she wanted to say for a while.

Just my opinions, of course.


I think to say that Lily didn't need Snape is to imply that she was using him prior to that. A person always needs their friends, but Snape's behaviour wasn't that of a friend. A "best friend" to Lily wouldn't befriend people who considered Muggleborns to be subhuman. Any friend at all of Lily's wouldn't do that. It's a huge betrayal of friendship. The only reasons I can see for Lily not ending the friendship as soon as Snape started hanging out with the bigots are maybe she was sure he wasn't like Mulciber and Avery; maybe she wanted to hold onto her oldest friend; or maybe she was in denial about the person he was becoming.





Minerva's Cat: Woah woah woah! You know what, I have never actually thought of it like that before! That really is an interesting point to make.

Firstly, I think she was willing to overlook his misdeeds because she was his friend. Paralleled with my own life, I've had friends, and close friends at that, who have upset me, but you keep giving them 'second' chances. I think that is what Lily was doing with Severus concerning him using the term 'Mudblood' and getting into the wrong crowd. Lily, trying to see the best in Severus, probably excused his behaviour, thinking of it as only a phase, or possibly thinking he was just trying to fit in. We have to remember that Severus too was, as you yourself said, physically unattractive, awkward in social situations etc., but it seems that he was able to make friends with these Slytherins, even though, admittedly, they were, quite frankly, rather evil people. Lily probably saw that. Being 'best friends' with Severus, she probably realised that he was only trying to fit in, and so he did all that he could to do that. Lily probably did have a problem with what he was doing, but just left it until she could really take it no longer. Which is why she brought it up.

FurryDice, I do think that yes, in a way, Lily was using Snape to get information about the wizarding world - but I don't think that was a necessarily bad thing. I see the point that you are making, but I genuinely do believe that her and Severus were good friends. He was kind to her (before obvs calling her a 'Mudblood') and it was him who introduced her to the world of magic. But, as Minerva's Cat said, maybe eventually, as she made friends with others, she lost interest in Severus. I'm still undecided about this, but I really do think there was something there with those two. Nothing to do with sexual or relationship feelings, nothing like that. But I think Lily always had a soft spot for Severus, which is why I'm surprised that, since the Mudblood incident happened in fifth year, that she didn't accept his apologies. But like you say, maybe by then she really was having second thoughts about him. It also seems that, once broken off from Lily's friendship, Severus really did spiral down further into becoming a darker wizard.

Personally, I find the mysteries surrounding Lily and Severus so fascinating! Ah, tragic love XD

Being 'best friends' with Severus, she probably realised that he was only trying to fit in, and so he did all that he could to do that. Lily probably did have a problem with what he was doing, but just left it until she could really take it no longer. Which is why she brought it up.

But did he have to try to fit in with the bigots? I don't think all of Slytherin House were bigots. And honestly, to adopt the beliefs of racism to fit in is very, very disturbing, imo.

FurryDice, I do think that yes, in a way, Lily was using Snape to get information about the wizarding world - but I don't think that was a necessarily bad thing. I see the point that you are making, but I genuinely do believe that her and Severus were good friends. He was kind to her (before obvs calling her a 'Mudblood') and it was him who introduced her to the world of magic.

Why can't it just be that she was glad to have a magical friend, someone who was able to do the same "strange" things she was? If we're going to say that Lily was using Snape, why not also say that Snape was using Lily, as an escape from his unhappy home life?

Kind? Maybe. But I don't see that he respected her at all. Befriending people who think your best friend is subhuman is not respectful. It's not friendship. It's betrayal. And I think it's surprising that it took Lily so long to see that.

But, as Minerva's Cat said, maybe eventually, as she made friends with others, she lost interest in Severus. I'm still undecided about this, but I really do think there was something there with those two. Nothing to do with sexual or relationship feelings, nothing like that. But I think Lily always had a soft spot for Severus, which is why I'm surprised that, since the Mudblood incident happened in fifth year, that she didn't accept his apologies. But like you say, maybe by then she really was having second thoughts about him. It also seems that, once broken off from Lily's friendship, Severus really did spiral down further into becoming a darker wizard.

I don't see why she should accept his apologies, once she had seen how far down the path to bigotry he had gone. She had tried to advise him, she had spoken to him about how his friends were a bad influence.

To call people "Mudblood" at a time when people who shared that twisted prejudice were out there killing people for being "Mudbloods" says a lot. It was especially inflammatory, considering the war that was going on. When Snape called Lily a Mudblood, I think she saw that he wouldn't be swayed from the path he had chosen, and she had every right not to want to be his token Mudblood, his exception.

But did he have to try to fit in with the bigots? I don't think all of Slytherin House were bigots. And honestly, to adopt the beliefs of racism to fit in is very, very disturbing, imo.



Why can't it just be that she was glad to have a magical friend, someone who was able to do the same "strange" things she was? If we're going to say that Lily was using Snape, why not also say that Snape was using Lily, as an escape from his unhappy home life?

Kind? Maybe. But I don't see that he respected her at all. Befriending people who think your best friend is subhuman is not respectful. It's not friendship. It's betrayal. And I think it's surprising that it took Lily so long to see that.



I don't see why she should accept his apologies, once she had seen how far down the path to bigotry he had gone. She had tried to advise him, she had spoken to him about how his friends were a bad influence.

To call people "Mudblood" at a time when people who shared that twisted prejudice were out there killing people for being "Mudbloods" says a lot. It was especially inflammatory, considering the war that was going on. When Snape called Lily a Mudblood, I think she saw that he wouldn't be swayed from the path he had chosen, and she had every right not to want to be his token Mudblood, his exception.
I agree with all of this. Especially since I see no evidence that Lily was going was "planning" on breaking things off with Severus because she was losing interest in him. Though I think that interpretation is valid, I believe a lot of it falls with Snape hanging around people who practiced Dark Magic and were agreeing with DE ideology. I don't see why that wouldn't be a strong reason to break away from someone. The politics of the wizarding world shaped up everything around them. Best friends are there for each other, but I think it's asking much more of Lily to be a very good friend considering Snape wasn't giving that same respect.

Minerva's Cat: Woah woah woah! You know what, I have never actually thought of it like that before! That really is an interesting point to make.

Firstly, I think she was willing to overlook his misdeeds because she was his friend. Paralleled with my own life, I've had friends, and close friends at that, who have upset me, but you keep giving them 'second' chances. I think that is what Lily was doing with Severus concerning him using the term 'Mudblood' and getting into the wrong crowd. Lily, trying to see the best in Severus, probably excused his behaviour, thinking of it as only a phase, or possibly thinking he was just trying to fit in. We have to remember that Severus too was, as you yourself said, physically unattractive, awkward in social situations etc., but it seems that he was able to make friends with these Slytherins, even though, admittedly, they were, quite frankly, rather evil people. Lily probably saw that. Being 'best friends' with Severus, she probably realised that he was only trying to fit in, and so he did all that he could to do that. Lily probably did have a problem with what he was doing, but just left it until she could really take it no longer. Which is why she brought it up.

FurryDice, I do think that yes, in a way, Lily was using Snape to get information about the wizarding world - but I don't think that was a necessarily bad thing. I see the point that you are making, but I genuinely do believe that her and Severus were good friends. He was kind to her (before obvs calling her a 'Mudblood') and it was him who introduced her to the world of magic. But, as Minerva's Cat said, maybe eventually, as she made friends with others, she lost interest in Severus. I'm still undecided about this, but I really do think there was something there with those two. Nothing to do with sexual or relationship feelings, nothing like that. But I think Lily always had a soft spot for Severus, which is why I'm surprised that, since the Mudblood incident happened in fifth year, that she didn't accept his apologies. But like you say, maybe by then she really was having second thoughts about him. It also seems that, once broken off from Lily's friendship, Severus really did spiral down further into becoming a darker wizard.

Personally, I find the mysteries surrounding Lily and Severus so fascinating! Ah, tragic love XD

Yes!! YOu have said in words what I have been triying to express for so long!
In the first part you've got a very important point because I have always said that Lily did care for Snape but did not understand. However your explanation fits even better: she understands him that's why she gives him second chances constantly until she can do it no more.

And yes also to your second paragraph, I have always though that it was some kind of atraction, maybe not sexual, but she was somehow impressed by Severus knowledges and mastery at magic, something that was gradually fading as she herself was mastering magic too.

Perhaps this is the moment when Severus realises he needs something else to keep Lily's interest and starts with Dark Arts willing to impress her, and this is a twist that for first time Lily does not understand as she is oblivious of Snape's feellings for her, and that's the begining of the end.

This explanation, with more than one level in Lily's understandment of Snape, and thus attitude is more fitting IMO.

And yes also to your second paragraph, I have always though that it was some kind of atraction, maybe not sexual, but she was somehow impressed by Severus knowledges and mastery at magic, something that was gradually fading as she herself was mastering magic too.

I don't know that Snape can have had much mastery of magic pre-Hogwarts, kids only begin learning to control their magic once they get a wand and go off to Hogwarts at eleven. Knowledge of magic and the wizarding world, certainly. However, I think a friendship based on looking up to someone isn't healthy among peers. It's only natural that as Lily got to know the magical world for herself, she would see Snape as less of a guide and leader. This shouldn't mean their friendship was any less, however, if they still shared common interests and values, and cared for each other.

Perhaps this is the moment when Severus realises he needs something else to keep Lily's interest and starts with Dark Arts willing to impress her, and this is a twist that for first time Lily does not understand as she is oblivious of Snape's feellings for her, and that's the begining of the end.

This explanation, with more than one level in Lily's understandment of Snape, and thus attitude is more fitting IMO.

I think it's expecting a bit muct to think Lily should have understood that Snape was friends with people who considered her scum to impress her. On her part, that would have required a tremendous leap from reason and a very low opinion of his intelligence and common sense. Instead, she believed what seemed far more reasonable - that his friends were a bad influence. She told him she couldn't see how he could be friends with people like Mulciber and Avery - meaning that she didn't see him as someone like them.

I, personally, do not think that Lily's feeling for Severus were ever more than just friends. They may have been "best friends" for a while, but once they started school and she found other witches and wizards I think she started losing interest in him and just didn't know how to let him down easily. I see her "defense" of their friendship a bit half-hearted, and, that she was just going through the motions for the last year or so of their relationship. I think she was waiting for a time, possibly after the O.W.L.S. so as not to add stress to that situation, to break off their friendship. Or, maybe she was just going to let it go and die on its own. But, when he flung a racial slur at her, IMO, this gave her the chance to cut it off and to say the things that she wanted to say for a while.
I really don't think so. I think she knew their friendship wasn't going to last forever, but she was struggling. She was still urging him to end his involvement with the Dark Arts, even though he wouldn't listen. I think, at the end, she may have given up thoroughly, but I would say she tried to fix things--only she felt she couldn't. I don't think she ever, ever, even for one second thought 'How do I get rid of him?'

I really don't think so. I think she knew their friendship wasn't going to last forever, but she was struggling. She was still urging him to end his involvement with the Dark Arts, even though he wouldn't listen. I think, at the end, she may have given up thoroughly, but I would say she tried to fix things--only she felt she couldn't. I don't think she ever, ever, even for one second thought 'How do I get rid of him?'

I agree, if Lily had wanted out, she could have cut ties with Snape as soon as he started hanging out with people who considered her subhuman. Instead, she tried to convince him that these people were bad news. However, I do think their friendship could have lasted if Snape hadn't become involved in Dark Arts and prejudice.

I'm not even sure Lily was aware that she wanted to end her friendship with Severus until the SWM incident, although, IMO, as she became more comfortable and more popular, he was becoming a liability to her. And, before the torches and pitchforks come out, Lily was a 15-16 year-old-girl...having raised daughters of my own, and being around many girls that age, I know that being popular is a major driving force in the life of a girl that age. That's why I say that she may not have even been aware that she was growing apart from him. Where, before, she might have "defended" whatever it was her other friends were saying, by her fifth year, she was starting to look at him less as a friend and more as just another student who was acting in a way contrary to her own beliefs.

It's just my opinion that Lily got more from the relationship than she gave. Severus gave her a view of the world she belonged to but had never been aware of, and, he put a positive spin on it, even though he was probably aware of the prejudices against Muggles. (I reiterate that I don't think he had any more of a prejudice against them than any other witches or wizards. I think his very negative feelings came from his abusive Muggle father and the fights between his parents.) They evidentally spent a lot of time together before going to Hogwarts, talking about the WW and being a person who could do magic.

Although to Severus it was probably more precious than anything, the only thing I see that Lily offered him was companionship. Of course, time with her was very precious to him, so, he probably felt he was getting as good as he gave. So, as long as he was happy, that was what mattered.

I feel that, if Lily had felt that close to Severus, she could have tried to encourage Severus to use his interests in the dark arts in a positive manner. I didn't see her trying this...asking him if he was studying them as a defensive measure or such. She automatically assumed he was studying them to use negatively -- even though we don't see him do anything "dark" until the scuffle in SWM.

I'm sure that Lucius Malfoy would have been recruiting followers for Voldemort from the time they arrived in Slytherin House. What more flattering thing for a brand new First Year than to be welcomed by the House Prefect and possibly "assigned" companions to "show him around?" Of course, this is speculation, but, since Mulciber and Avery were in Severus' House, and he didn't just seek them out in particular to hang around with, I think it is at least a viable theory.

I just feel that Lily should have understood what Severus was facing in peer pressure in Slytherin House the same as she was in Gryffindor.

I just feel that Lily should have understood what Severus was facing in peer pressure in Slytherin House the same as she was in Gryffindor.
There's two kinds of peer pressure. One that influences you to do bad things, and one that influences you to do good and stay away from the bad things. Snape was dealing with people who were into Dark Magic and following DE ideology. Lily's friends were warning her to stay away from those things and people who follow it. As far as I can tell, Snape was following things that were harmful, Lily ended up following a path that taught to keep her away from that harm, and even fight it (since she joined the Order later). How is the peer pressure Snape felt in Slytherin the same as the one Lily had to deal with? Also, Lily does communicate to Snape that such things were evil. And just because we don't know exactly what Mulciber did to Mary Mcdonald doesn't make it any less serious or that it didn't happen (if anything, that's the fault of the writing for not being descriptive enough, and not what actually happens in the plot itself). If Snape didn't want to listen to her, that's not Lily fault.

I don't know that Snape can have had much mastery of magic pre-Hogwarts, kids only begin learning to control their magic once they get a wand and go off to Hogwarts at eleven. Knowledge of magic and the wizarding world, certainly. However, I think a friendship based on looking up to someone isn't healthy among peers. It's only natural that as Lily got to know the magical world for herself, she would see Snape as less of a guide and leader. This shouldn't mean their friendship was any less, however, if they still shared common interests and values, and cared for each other.



I think it's expecting a bit muct to think Lily should have understood that Snape was friends with people who considered her scum to impress her. On her part, that would have required a tremendous leap from reason and a very low opinion of his intelligence and common sense. Instead, she believed what seemed far more reasonable - that his friends were a bad influence. She told him she couldn't see how he could be friends with people like Mulciber and Avery - meaning that she didn't see him as someone like them.

Pre-Hogwarts Snape had knowledge, and through that knowledge Lily met someone who was smart, and interesting, someone she wouldn't have probably approached if it were not for this. After meeting him, she discovered him as a person and developed a strong bond, but later, his interests changed and hers too. And I believe that to be friends with someone there must be something for you to admire or like in that person (not as a leader, but as a match for you) and Lily stopped seeing that part of Snape that would match hers and interest hers.

Of course Lily did not understand Snape`s change, and did not understand what he was trying to do, to understand that she needed to know he loved her, and she didn't know that, so yes, it is too much to expect from Lily. I just say that this way things are explained better, knowing that she was aware of peer pressure in first momment but not the later changes in him.

Quote from FurryDice:

I think it's expecting a bit muct to think Lily should have understood that Snape was friends with people who considered her scum to impress her. On her part, that would have required a tremendous leap from reason and a very low opinion of his intelligence and common sense. Instead, she believed what seemed far more reasonable - that his friends were a bad influence. She told him she couldn't see how he could be friends with people like Mulciber and Avery - meaning that she didn't see him as someone like them.

Possibly he hung around with them for protection from harassment and pranks. How would he explain that to Lily without looking even weaker in her eyes? That may have been why he couldn't answer her when she confronted him about his friendship with them. Maybe he was trying to find the right words to say that, and she assumed his silence was an admission of guilt.

That is why IMO, the two had grown so far apart by their fifth year that they could not read each other's feelings anymore -- if they ever could.

I'm not even sure Lily was aware that she wanted to end her friendship with Severus until the SWM incident, although, IMO, as she became more comfortable and more popular, he was becoming a liability to her. And, before the torches and pitchforks come out, Lily was a 15-16 year-old-girl...having raised daughters of my own, and being around many girls that age, I know that being popular is a major driving force in the life of a girl that age. That's why I say that she may not have even been aware that she was growing apart from him. Where, before, she might have "defended" whatever it was her other friends were saying, by her fifth year, she was starting to look at him less as a friend and more as just another student who was acting in a way contrary to her own beliefs.

It's just my opinion that Lily got more from the relationship than she gave. Severus gave her a view of the world she belonged to but had never been aware of, and, he put a positive spin on it, even though he was probably aware of the prejudices against Muggles. (I reiterate that I don't think he had any more of a prejudice against them than any other witches or wizards. I think his very negative feelings came from his abusive Muggle father and the fights between his parents.) They evidentally spent a lot of time together before going to Hogwarts, talking about the WW and being a person who could do magic.

Although to Severus it was probably more precious than anything, the only thing I see that Lily offered him was companionship. Of course, time with her was very precious to him, so, he probably felt he was getting as good as he gave. So, as long as he was happy, that was what mattered.

I feel that, if Lily had felt that close to Severus, she could have tried to encourage Severus to use his interests in the dark arts in a positive manner. I didn't see her trying this...asking him if he was studying them as a defensive measure or such. She automatically assumed he was studying them to use negatively -- even though we don't see him do anything "dark" until the scuffle in SWM.

I'm sure that Lucius Malfoy would have been recruiting followers for Voldemort from the time they arrived in Slytherin House. What more flattering thing for a brand new First Year than to be welcomed by the House Prefect and possibly "assigned" companions to "show him around?" Of course, this is speculation, but, since Mulciber and Avery were in Severus' House, and he didn't just seek them out in particular to hang around with, I think it is at least a viable theory.

I just feel that Lily should have understood what Severus was facing in peer pressure in Slytherin House the same as she was in Gryffindor.

Yes, this is not an equal relationship, and Lily had everything in life while Severus had to play all to one card, for her it was very easy to say what was good and what was wrong, but for him every election was hard as there was not so much where to choose.
And I also believe that the reason why Lily understood him at the begining and later she stopped understanding him is that popularity had made an effect on her (that is the kind of peer pressure in Griffindor that I was talking about, the kind that makes you see the world easier than it is and also believe you are right in what you see). That is why she half smile in SWM, she was popular, she had not real idea what was in Severus mind at than time.

About dark Magic my point is that Severus always regarded it as a tool that could be used, wrong or good, just like Harry's parseltongue, it is your choices that makes you good or bad person.

Possibly he hung around with them for protection from harassment and pranks. How would he explain that to Lily without looking even weaker in her eyes? That may have been why he couldn't answer her when she confronted him about his friendship with them. Maybe he was trying to find the right words to say that, and she assumed his silence was an admission of guilt.
This is certainly possible--Sev certainly wouldn't have wanted to admit that he needed/wanted protection, and Lily would have jumped to conclusions about it, IMO.

Yes, this is not an equal relationship, and Lily had everything in life while Severus had to play all to one card, for her it was very easy to say what was good and what was wrong, but for him every election was hard as there was not so much where to choose.
And I also believe that the reason why Lily understood him at the begining and later she stopped understanding him is that popularity had made an effect on her (that is the kind of peer pressure in Griffindor that I was talking about, the kind that makes you see the world easier than it is and also believe you are right in what you see). That is why she half smile in SWM, she was popular, she had not real idea what was in Severus mind at than time.
This. I think you're absolutely right. She'd been influenced quite a lot by her fellow Gryffindors, IMO.

I'm not even sure Lily was aware that she wanted to end her friendship with Severus until the SWM incident, although, IMO, as she became more comfortable and more popular, he was becoming a liability to her. And, before the torches and pitchforks come out, Lily was a 15-16 year-old-girl...having raised daughters of my own, and being around many girls that age, I know that being popular is a major driving force in the life of a girl that age.

There was a lot more going on at the time than some teenage popularity contest. There was a war brewing, where people of Lily's birth were the target of a campaign of genocide. People who considered Lily a Mudblood were the same kind of people who thought that Muggleborns were scum, undeserving of magic, and of life. She shouldn't have to accept that from her best friend, she shouldn't have to accept being his exception.

It's just my opinion that Lily got more from the relationship than she gave. Severus gave her a view of the world she belonged to but had never been aware of, and, he put a positive spin on it, even though he was probably aware of the prejudices against Muggles. (I reiterate that I don't think he had any more of a prejudice against them than any other witches or wizards. I think his very negative feelings came from his abusive Muggle father and the fights between his parents.) They evidentally spent a lot of time together before going to Hogwarts, talking about the WW and being a person who could do magic.

What exactly should Lily have given to the friendship that she didn't give? She was a support for Snape when things were bad at home; she tried to advise him that he was headed for trouble with his bigot friends; she stood by him when others would have left him the moment he started hanging out with people who considered her scum; she stood up to popular students on his behalf. I think she did a lot for someone who betrayed her in that way.

I feel that, if Lily had felt that close to Severus, she could have tried to encourage Severus to use his interests in the dark arts in a positive manner. I didn't see her trying this...asking him if he was studying them as a defensive measure or such. She automatically assumed he was studying them to use negatively -- even though we don't see him do anything "dark" until the scuffle in SWM.

I don't see any positive use for Dark Magic. There are defensive spells that one can use that aren't Dark Magic. A Stupefy will take care of an opponent much as a Sectumsempra will, just without slicing them open. It's made very clear in the series that Dark Magic is a negative thing, that's why Defence against the Dark Arts is taught, not Dark Arts. Until Voldemort takes over, that is.

Of course, this is speculation, but, since Mulciber and Avery were in Severus' House, and he didn't just seek them out in particular to hang around with, I think it is at least a viable theory.

They're referred to in canon as his friends, they were not just Housemates, or people he knew, or shared classes with, they were the people he spent time with, other than Lily.

I just feel that Lily should have understood what Severus was facing in peer pressure in Slytherin House the same as she was in Gryffindor.

And I think Snape should have understood that it was a betrayal to befriend people who considered Lily scum. He couldn't have both. Lily had every right to stand up for what she believed in. Friendship means acceptance, but it also means letting friends know when they're headed for trouble. When should Lily have drawn the line? When he became a DE, and took the Dark Mark, should she have also been understanding that he just became a criminal because of peer pressure?

There's two kinds of peer pressure. One that influences you to do bad things, and one that influences you to do good and stay away from the bad things. Snape was dealing with people who were into Dark Magic and following DE ideology. Lily's friends were warning her to stay away from those things and people who follow it. As far as I can tell, Snape was following things that were harmful, Lily ended up following a path that taught to keep her away from that harm, and even fight it (since she joined the Order later). How is the peer pressure Snape felt in Slytherin the same as the one Lily had to deal with? Also, Lily does communicate to Snape that such things were evil. And just because we don't know exactly what Mulciber did to Mary Mcdonald doesn't make it any less serious or that it didn't happen (if anything, that's the fault of the writing for not being descriptive enough, and not what actually happens in the plot itself). If Snape didn't want to listen to her, that's not Lily fault.

I agree, and I think the peer pressure Snape had in Slytherin is nothing like the peer pressure from Lily's friends. Snape's friends were leading him down the wrong road, to bigotry and to the DEs, while Lily's friends were understandably concerned for her in a relationship like that. And speaking of peer pressure, Lily stood up to the popular students for her friend, while her "friend" hung around with people who considered her scum. Lily also makes it clear in several of the memories we see in TPT that she won't stand for being told what to do by others.

Pre-Hogwarts Snape had knowledge, and through that knowledge Lily met someone who was smart, and interesting, someone she wouldn't have probably approached if it were not for this. After meeting him, she discovered him as a person and developed a strong bond, but later, his interests changed and hers too. And I believe that to be friends with someone there must be something for you to admire or like in that person (not as a leader, but as a match for you) and Lily stopped seeing that part of Snape that would match hers and interest hers.

Of course, you need to admire your friends, but your friends don't need to be in a position of superiority - if that was what Snape felt he lost when Lily was growing and learning about the magical world for herself, without him being her sole link to it. And I'm quite glad Lily's interests didn't grow the same direction as Snape's - Dark Arts and Voldemort, prejudice and moral relativism. Most of these are the things Lily tried to advise Snape against.

Yes, this is not an equal relationship, and Lily had everything in life while Severus had to play all to one card, for her it was very easy to say what was good and what was wrong, but for him every election was hard as there was not so much where to choose.
And I also believe that the reason why Lily understood him at the begining and later she stopped understanding him is that popularity had made an effect on her (that is the kind of peer pressure in Griffindor that I was talking about, the kind that makes you see the world easier than it is and also believe you are right in what you see). That is why she half smile in SWM, she was popular, she had not real idea what was in Severus mind at than time.

About dark Magic my point is that Severus always regarded it as a tool that could be used, wrong or good, just like Harry's parseltongue, it is your choices that makes you good or bad person.

Yes. I think you've done an excellent job of expressing what was going on. I believe that there was a lot of peer pressure on both of them from their respective Houses. This can make any friendship very difficult to maintain.

I'm not sure Lily understood what it was like for Severus to live in Slytherin and be friends with a Muggleborn Gryffindor.

I also agree with the comparison of how Harry used his "dark magic," which he'd never asked for of course, but still had. Dark Magic is still just magic unless it is used negatively.

Possibly he hung around with them for protection from harassment and pranks. How would he explain that to Lily without looking even weaker in her eyes? That may have been why he couldn't answer her when she confronted him about his friendship with them. Maybe he was trying to find the right words to say that, and she assumed his silence was an admission of guilt.

That is why IMO, the two had grown so far apart by their fifth year that they could not read each other's feelings anymore -- if they ever could.

Snape joining the bigots for protection would put him in the same category as Wormtail, who joined the terrorists for protection. Whatever Snape's reasons, he was hanging around with people who considered his best friend to be subhuman. I wouldn't do that to my friend, for anything. Lily had every right to be angry about that, and I don't think she can be faulted for finally choosing to have self-respect in a situation like that.

Yes, this is not an equal relationship, and Lily had everything in life while Severus had to play all to one card, for her it was very easy to say what was good and what was wrong, but for him every election was hard as there was not so much where to choose.
And I also believe that the reason why Lily understood him at the begining and later she stopped understanding him is that popularity had made an effect on her (that is the kind of peer pressure in Griffindor that I was talking about, the kind that makes you see the world easier than it is and also believe you are right in what you see). That is why she half smile in SWM, she was popular, she had not real idea what was in Severus mind at than time.

Lily had everything? She was a member of the group that was being targeted by a genocidal bunch of criminals. People who shared the prejudices of Snape's friends. I think when it comes to prejudice like that, and the DEs, it is that simple - the Mudblood prejudice is wrong, Voldemort and the DEs are wrong. That's not simplifying, there's no justification for bigotry or for genocide and terrorism. I don't think it's a problem that Lily's Housemates saw things as simply as that.

About dark Magic my point is that Severus always regarded it as a tool that could be used, wrong or good, just like Harry's parseltongue, it is your choices that makes you good or bad person.

But Dark Magic is shown in the series as a negative thing. How are the Unforgivables a good thing? How is slicing someone open with Sectumsempra a good thing? How are Horcruxes a good thing? Or Voldemort's regeneration potion? I'm sorry, but I really don't see how Dark Magic can be a good thing.

I'm not sure Lily understood what it was like for Severus to live in Slytherin and be friends with a Muggleborn Gryffindor.

And Snape didn't understand what it was like for Lily to be a Muggleborn, at the time of that war, whose "best friend" was hanging out with prejudiced budding DEs.

I also agree with the comparison of how Harry used his "dark magic," which he'd never asked for of course, but still had. Dark Magic is still just magic unless it is used negatively.

I think Dark Magic is specifically negative. That's why Defence is taught, and not Dark Arts. Most magic is neutral, unless negatively used -like Stupefy, Expelliarmus, Aguamenti, etc. Dark Magic is so called because it is negative. Otherwise, why term it "Dark"? Why teach Defence Against Dark Arts, if it's possibly a good thing? Transfiguration could be used negatively, yet there's no "Defence against Transfiguration".

But Dark Magic is shown in the series as a negative thing. How are the Unforgivables a good thing? How is slicing someone open with Sectumsempra a good thing? How are Horcruxes a good thing? Or Voldemort's regeneration potion? I'm sorry, but I really don't see how Dark Magic can be a good thing.


answered in the Unforgivable Curses thread http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=5589987#post5589987

There was a lot more going on at the time than some teenage popularity contest. There was a war brewing, where people of Lily's birth were the target of a campaign of genocide. People who considered Lily a Mudblood were the same kind of people who thought that Muggleborns were scum, undeserving of magic, and of life. She shouldn't have to accept that from her best friend, she shouldn't have to accept being his exception. I agree. So much of the blame for the dissolution of their relationship gets blamed on Lily, but Snape played a large role in it too. I don't see how Snape could have justified being friends with people who thought Lily, his best-friend, was a "Mudblood." How is that supposed to make Lily feel? I'm sure they all knew about the war that was raging on outside of Hogwarts, I'm sure they all knew that Voldemort thought the world needed to be cleansed of Mudbloods. For Snape to sympathize with these people who agreed with Voldemort's ideas shows either he had a lack of care for Lily's feelings (which I don't think is true) or that he also was playing up to the popular crowd, for him they just happened to be the popular Slytherins are opposed to Gryffindors. The fact that their friendship broke down just seems to be the natural response when two people are on such different life paths. To say that any one person is responsible, I feel is more wishful thinking.


What exactly should Lily have given to the friendship that she didn't give? She was a support for Snape when things were bad at home; she tried to advise him that he was headed for trouble with his bigot friends; she stood by him when others would have left him the moment he started hanging out with people who considered her scum; she stood up to popular students on his behalf. I think she did a lot for someone who betrayed her in that way.
Again, I agree. :tu:


And I think Snape should have understood that it was a betrayal to befriend people who considered Lily scum. He couldn't have both.And I feel like this get to the heart of the matter. They both, in a way, wanted to have the friendship with each other and the friendship with their fellow housemates, and it was impossible. Moreso for Snape than Lily. Lily's friends begrudingly accepted her odd friendship with Snape; while Snape's friends absolutely hated Lily simply because she was muggleborn. They sympathized with Voldemort who was actively killing muggleborns and Snape was heading down that path. He wanted to keep his personal friendship with Lily, but also enjoy the feeling of being part of the Slytherin crowd. Again, I think it was only natural that their friendship broke down judging by how their lives had changed in the 5 years they were at Hogwarts.

I agree. So much of the blame for the dissolution of their relationship gets blamed on Lily, but Snape played a large role in it too. I don't see how Snape could have justified being friends with people who thought Lily, his best-friend, was a "Mudblood." How is that supposed to make Lily feel? I'm sure they all knew about the war that was raging on outside of Hogwarts, I'm sure they all knew that Voldemort thought the world needed to be cleansed of Mudbloods. For Snape to sympathize with these people who agreed with Voldemort's ideas shows either he had a lack of care for Lily's feelings (which I don't think is true) or that he also was playing up to the popular crowd, for him they just happened to be the popular Slytherins are opposed to Gryffindors. The fact that their friendship broke down just seems to be the natural response when two people are on such different life paths. To say that any one person is responsible, I feel is more wishful thinking.
Addressed in the Severus Snape: Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=5590070#post5590070) thread.

I agree. So much of the blame for the dissolution of their relationship gets blamed on Lily, but Snape played a large role in it too. I don't see how Snape could have justified being friends with people who thought Lily, his best-friend, was a "Mudblood." How is that supposed to make Lily feel? I'm sure they all knew about the war that was raging on outside of Hogwarts, I'm sure they all knew that Voldemort thought the world needed to be cleansed of Mudbloods. For Snape to sympathize with these people who agreed with Voldemort's ideas shows either he had a lack of care for Lily's feelings (which I don't think is true) or that he also was playing up to the popular crowd, for him they just happened to be the popular Slytherins are opposed to Gryffindors. The fact that their friendship broke down just seems to be the natural response when two people are on such different life paths. To say that any one person is responsible, I feel is more wishful thinking.

I don't see Lily as getting blamed anymore for the disolution of the friendship than Severus. I posted my theory on why Severus hung out with Mulciber and Avery -- possibly for protection from others who would harass or hex him.
I posed that his reluctance to tell Lily that he was using them for that reason was due to his embarassment of feeling that he couldn't protect himself (as we see that he couldn't when ganged up on).

No one has suggested that Lily was totally to blame for the breakup of the friendship. There are just questions as to how committed she really was to it and what other influences, besides Severus' friends and interest in the Dark Arts, might have helped bring about the demise of their relationship of almost seven years.


And I feel like this get to the heart of the matter. They both, in a way, wanted to have the friendship with each other and the friendship with their fellow housemates, and it was impossible. Moreso for Snape than Lily. Lily's friends begrudingly accepted her odd friendship with Snape; while Snape's friends absolutely hated Lily simply because she was muggleborn. They sympathized with Voldemort who was actively killing muggleborns and Snape was heading down that path. He wanted to keep his personal friendship with Lily, but also enjoy the feeling of being part of the Slytherin crowd. Again, I think it was only natural that their friendship broke down judging by how their lives had changed in the 5 years they were at Hogwarts.

I fully agree with everything you've said here. Unfortunately, their being sorted into such rival Houses, IMO, was the beginning of the end. If they'd been sorted into Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff, they would have probably remained friends.

I still contend that magic, whether dark or not, is only magic until it's used against someone.

It's like having a gun. There are different types of guns for different purposes. There are some guns that have only one purpose, to kill someone or something. A person can know how to use this type of gun but that does not mean they are automatically going to go out and kill someone. They may use it for defense, in an extreme situation (such as war), but, the fact that they know how to use it does not automatically make them a bad person.

I disagree. The Dark Arts are called the Dark Arts because they are by definition magic that is used to harm people, to trick them, to bend them to your will, and to get your own way no matter who is standing against you.

Gryffindor peer pressure isn't necessary to explain why Lily would be upset by her friend's interest in the Dark Arts; all that's required to make that determination is a functioning conscience. That's why Lily's son is disturbed by his conscience after using Sectumsempra on Draco, and why the trio debated for days on how to break into Gringott's. My interpretation of that would be that they were trying to figure a way to do it without the use of Imperio: Dark Arts, used to bend someone to your will.

But I think that Severus' interest in the Dark Arts was secondary to Lily's real reason to tell him that she wouldn't bother with him in the future. Severus' Slytherin friends -- regardless of the reasons behind them being his friends -- wanted Lily and everyone like Lily scraped off the face of the Earth. "Scum" isn't a strong enough word for the way the Death Eaters viewed the Muggleborns; you can ignore scum. Severus sided with the people who wanted the Muggleborns killed. Why would anyone want to be friends with the friend of genocidal terrorists? "The friend of my enemies is my enemy." I think that is what Lily was turning a blind eye to for her first five years at Hogwarts. When Severus called her a Mudblood, to her face, the blinders came off. He placed her in the category of subhuman creatures who needed to be wiped out so that the Wizarding World could come out of hiding and rule the world.

I disagree. The Dark Arts are called the Dark Arts because they are by definition magic that is used to harm people, to trick them, to bend them to your will, and to get your own way no matter who is standing against you.

Gryffindor peer pressure isn't necessary to explain why Lily would be upset by her friend's interest in the Dark Arts; all that's required to make that determination is a functioning conscience. That's why Lily's son is disturbed by his conscience after using Sectumsempra on Draco, and why the trio debated for days on how to break into Gringott's. My interpretation of that would be that they were trying to figure a way to do it without the use of Imperio: Dark Arts, used to bend someone to your will.

But I think that Severus' interest in the Dark Arts was secondary to Lily's real reason to tell him that she wouldn't bother with him in the future. Severus' Slytherin friends -- regardless of the reasons behind them being his friends -- wanted Lily and everyone like Lily scraped off the face of the Earth. "Scum" isn't a strong enough word for the way the Death Eaters viewed the Muggleborns; you can ignore scum. Severus sided with the people who wanted the Muggleborns killed. Why would anyone want to be friends with the friend of genocidal terrorists? "The friend of my enemies is my enemy." I think that is what Lily was turning a blind eye to for her first five years at Hogwarts. When Severus called her a Mudblood, to her face, the blinders came off. He placed her in the category of subhuman creatures who needed to be wiped out so that the Wizarding World could come out of hiding and rule the world.

I could again state my interpretation of Lily and Severus' relationship, and you could come back and restate yours, since we obviously have totally differing perceptions of them and the reasons for their actions. To continue to do that is kind of futile, though, because neither of us is probably going to change our opinions, no matter how many times we discuss it.

So, I can just say that I see the entire relationship between them, and the reasons for each doing the things they did much differently, and leave it at that -- agreeing to disagree. :)

I disagree. The Dark Arts are called the Dark Arts because they are by definition magic that is used to harm people, to trick them, to bend them to your will, and to get your own way no matter who is standing against you.
I agree. I don't think the Wizarding World made the distinction lightly. I think the big difference is that light magic can be used for good or for bad, or for neutral purposes; one can use aguamenti to have a drink of water, but it can also be dangerous as one could use it to suffocate and drown someone. Dark magic, on the other hand, has only harmful effects. There are only destructive or harmful outcomes to using Crucio, Avada Kedavra, Sectumsempra, and the kind of magic we see in the cave to protect the locket. One can use dark magic with good intent, like Snape using Sectumsempra on the Death Eater to save Remus and George, but it's still Dark Magic and its outcome will always be harmful.

If using dark magic for a good purpose is okay or not, well I think that's an ethical question and I don't think everyone will ever agree on something like this.

But with my view on what Dark Magic is, I think it's perfectly understandable why someone like Harry or Lily would disapprove of its use.


But I think that Severus' interest in the Dark Arts was secondary to Lily's real reason to tell him that she wouldn't bother with him in the future. Severus' Slytherin friends -- regardless of the reasons behind them being his friends -- wanted Lily and everyone like Lily scraped off the face of the Earth. "Scum" isn't a strong enough word for the way the Death Eaters viewed the Muggleborns; you can ignore scum. Severus sided with the people who wanted the Muggleborns killed. Why would anyone want to be friends with the friend of genocidal terrorists? "The friend of my enemies is my enemy." I think that is what Lily was turning a blind eye to for her first five years at Hogwarts. When Severus called her a Mudblood, to her face, the blinders came off. He placed her in the category of subhuman creatures who needed to be wiped out so that the Wizarding World could come out of hiding and rule the world.
Well said, and I agree. I don't think one has to look too deeply into the situation to understand why Lily would want to break it off. There could be plenty of other reasons, of course, but I personally found the reasons stated in the books to be more than enough to cut off a friendship.

So, I can just say that I see the entire relationship between them, and the reasons for each doing the things they did much differently, and leave it at that -- agreeing to disagree. :)
Haha, that's true.

Of course, you need to admire your friends, but your friends don't need to be in a position of superiority - if that was what Snape felt he lost when Lily was growing and learning about the magical world for herself, without him being her sole link to it. And I'm quite glad Lily's interests didn't grow the same direction as Snape's - Dark Arts and Voldemort, prejudice and moral relativism. Most of these are the things Lily tried to advise Snape against.

Yes, but on the other hand Snape had no family, no money, no looks, so his only gift was his magical knowledge, that put him in balance with Lily, who had all the rest but the knowledge, He didn't want to be supperior, he just wanted to be equal.

I think there is something important that we have to bear in mind: it is that possibly Hogwarts students were not aware of what will happen in the future.
We see the story from Harry's view and we know how far they really went into killing Muggleborns, but at the time of Lily and Severus youth, Voldemort was still rising, so probably he did not demonstrate yet his more terrible side. We have the example of Regulus Black who first joined and later tried to withdraw from the DE. We see how Voldemort takes the ministry subreptitiously, and makes propaganda changing the good people into the "undesirable nº1".
In the series there is the paralelism with nazism, and it is surprising how far things had gone without the prisioners knowing what was really going on.
And similar must have happened in the wizarding world, for teenanger Snape those were just ideas, not reality. Reality was that he needed some folks to hang around with he didn't want to be alone in his house, he didn't want to opose the majority of the people in his house, he didn't want to be regarded as weak by Lily, that's all, and the DE seemed to bring and aura of power.

This, that reality hadn't striken them hard by the time in TPT, supports a split due in a great measure by teenangers affairs and social issues, more than war side-taking. Even if Lily makes straight reference to in, it seems that the paths she is refering, are, at the time (later will change and will became real war sides) social sides, and social paths.

We see the story from Harry's view and we know how far they really went into killing Muggleborns, but at the time of Lily and Severus youth, Voldemort was still rising, so probably he did not demonstrate yet his more terrible side.
Lily referred to Voldemort as You-Know-Who in one of the memories so I'm assuming that by their 5th year, Voldemort was already doing really horrific things if someone like Lily didn't even want to refer to him by name.

Also, Dumbledore says (after Voldemort's downfall) that they'd had precious little to celebrate in 11 years. I took this to mean Voldemort was already terrorizing the magical community by Lily and Snape's first year at Hogwarts.

In the series there is the paralelism with nazism, and it is surprising how far things had gone without the prisioners knowing what was really going on.
And similar must have happened in the wizarding world, for teenanger Snape those were just ideas, not reality. Reality was that he needed some folks to hang around with he didn't want to be alone in his house, he didn't want to opose the majority of the people in his house, he didn't want to be regarded as weak by Lily, that's all, and the DE seemed to bring and aura of power.
The DEs couldn't have been the majority in their house, though. We know of Lucius, Bellatrix, Rodolphus, Mulciber, Avery, Rosier, and Wilkes. I'm guessing Rabastan Lestrange and Regulus Black were also there. I'm pretty sure they were mostly in different years, too. Assuming there was a time where they were all at Hogwarts at the same time, that's 9 Death Eaters in Slytherin, excluding Snape. If we go roughly by what canon shows, there are about 70 students in Slytherin house at any given time, and if we go by what JKR said (and some comments by Harry claiming hundreds of students at Hogwarts) there are about 250 students in Slytherin.

That means the majority of Slytherins didn't end up as Death Eaters, and while I'm sure some were prejudiced against Muggleborns and just didn't want to be DEs (like Narcissa), we know it's possible to be a Slytherin and not be prejudiced at all (like Andromeda). I don't think it's that farfetched to say there were more Slytherins like Andromeda that Snape could have chosen to hang out with. I didn't see any canon to suggest the future DEs were pushing anyone to join their gang, or that the rest of the house rejected Snape so that all he had left were the DEs. I think Snape made a clear choice that he wanted to hang out with them, for whatever reason.

I think Lily knew this. She wondered how he could be friends with such people, making it sound like "why can't you be friends with better people in your house?" I don't think Lily was asking Snape to be friendless and alone in Slytherin.

Lily referred to Voldemort as You-Know-Who in one of the memories so I'm assuming that by their 5th year, Voldemort was already doing really horrific things if someone like Lily didn't even want to refer to him by name.

Also, Dumbledore says (after Voldemort's downfall) that they'd had precious little to celebrate in 11 years. I took this to mean Voldemort was already terrorizing the magical community by Lily and Snape's first year at Hogwarts.


The DEs couldn't have been the majority in their house, though. We know of Lucius, Bellatrix, Rodolphus, Mulciber, Avery, Rosier, and Wilkes. I'm guessing Rabastan Lestrange and Regulus Black were also there. I'm pretty sure they were mostly in different years, too. Assuming there was a time where they were all at Hogwarts at the same time, that's 9 Death Eaters in Slytherin, excluding Snape. If we go roughly by what canon shows, there are about 70 students in Slytherin house at any given time, and if we go by what JKR said (and some comments by Harry claiming hundreds of students at Hogwarts) there are about 250 students in Slytherin.

That means the majority of Slytherins didn't end up as Death Eaters, and while I'm sure some were prejudiced against Muggleborns and just didn't want to be DEs (like Narcissa), we know it's possible to be a Slytherin and not be prejudiced at all (like Andromeda). I don't think it's that farfetched to say there were more Slytherins like Andromeda that Snape could have chosen to hang out with. I didn't see any canon to suggest the future DEs were pushing anyone to join their gang, or that the rest of the house rejected Snape so that all he had left were the DEs. I think Snape made a clear choice that he wanted to hang out with them, for whatever reason.

I think Lily knew this. She wondered how he could be friends with such people, making it sound like "why can't you be friends with better people in your house?" I don't think Lily was asking Snape to be friendless and alone in Slytherin.

Ok, you've got your point here, numbers don't lie, and he could have chosen other people, he just went for those who were more impressive, againg this leads us to social rasons for his choice, social Teenanger reasons (wanting to be in the top) .
And maybe Lily knew there were better people in Slytherin, but in Snape's eyes, when he was powerful all this would be forgiven, and plus, that better people perhaps did not rule in Slytherin and Snape wanted to be among the ruling ones.
Or maybe being poor plus not belonging to the DE ideas was to much for living in Slytherin.

I still think he needed somehow to join the ideology to live peacefully in his house the same way a Griffindor with pro-Voldemort ideas would have had a hard life.

And also, despite what JKR says, what we are shown in cannon is that the number of students per house were small and that would make the number of DE much more important so the first numbers (that the DE were not so many) must be taken with a pinch of salt.
It is undoubted that they had strong influence, even if they were not so many.

No one has suggested that Lily was totally to blame for the breakup of the friendship. There are just questions as to how committed she really was to it and what other influences, besides Severus' friends and interest in the Dark Arts, might have helped bring about the demise of their relationship of almost seven years.

I think blaming the breakup on social pressure, and Lily being concerned with popularity is to push an unfair amount of the responsibility onto Lily, and to very much ignore the canon fact that Snape was hanging around people who considered his best friend subhuman.

I agree. I don't think the Wizarding World made the distinction lightly. I think the big difference is that light magic can be used for good or for bad, or for neutral purposes; one can use aguamenti to have a drink of water, but it can also be dangerous as one could use it to suffocate and drown someone. Dark magic, on the other hand, has only harmful effects. There are only destructive or harmful outcomes to using Crucio, Avada Kedavra, Sectumsempra, and the kind of magic we see in the cave to protect the locket. One can use dark magic with good intent, like Snape using Sectumsempra on the Death Eater to save Remus and George, but it's still Dark Magic and its outcome will always be harmful.

I think so, too. It's frowned upon for a reason. Defence against the Dark Arts is taught rather than Dark Arts for a reason. In another thread, I think the Unforgivable Curses thread, arithmancer makes the best analogy for Dark Arts that I've read so far. There, she compares it to violence. I think that works very well as an analogy.
Violence is a negative thing, but there are extreme circumstances, such as self defence, where people can be driven to use violence. And even using violence in those circumstances has negative consequences for someone, just as Dark Arts always has negative consequences for someone. However, making violence/Dark Arts an everyday, normal part of one's life is not a good thing. And all the Dark Magic we've seen in the series is violent in some way.

Yes, but on the other hand Snape had no family, no money, no looks, so his only gift was his magical knowledge, that put him in balance with Lily, who had all the rest but the knowledge, He didn't want to be supperior, he just wanted to be equal.

Sympathising with people who consider Muggleborns inferior is looking for superiority, imo. And friendship isn't about the other person having looks, or money, or their family.

Reality was that he needed some folks to hang around with he didn't want to be alone in his house, he didn't want to opose the majority of the people in his house, he didn't want to be regarded as weak by Lily, that's all, and the DE seemed to bring and aura of power.

The DE also brought him into a campaign against Muggleborns, like Lily.


Lily referred to Voldemort as You-Know-Who in one of the memories so I'm assuming that by their 5th year, Voldemort was already doing really horrific things if someone like Lily didn't even want to refer to him by name.

Also, Dumbledore says (after Voldemort's downfall) that they'd had precious little to celebrate in 11 years. I took this to mean Voldemort was already terrorizing the magical community by Lily and Snape's first year at Hogwarts.

That's a good point -people were living in fear at this point (It was around this time that Molly and Arthur Weasley eloped, as did many other couples, according to HBP, because people didn't know how long they had with the war situation). This was not a time when there was confusion about what Voldemort was doing, people were disappearing and being murdered.

I didn't see any canon to suggest the future DEs were pushing anyone to join their gang, or that the rest of the house rejected Snape so that all he had left were the DEs. I think Snape made a clear choice that he wanted to hang out with them, for whatever reason.

I think Lily knew this. She wondered how he could be friends with such people, making it sound like "why can't you be friends with better people in your house?" I don't think Lily was asking Snape to be friendless and alone in Slytherin.

I think so, too- Lily considered Snape different from people like Avery and Mulciber. She saw him as better than the bigots. And yes, there's nothing in canon to suggest Snape had no other options.

Ok, you've got your point here, numbers don't lie, and he could have chosen other people, he just went for those who were more impressive, againg this leads us to social rasons for his choice, social Teenanger reasons (wanting to be in the top) .

This would be rather similar to Pettigrew, who also sided with people who wanted his friends dead, so he could be with the powerful people.


And maybe Lily knew there were better people in Slytherin, but in Snape's eyes, when he was powerful all this would be forgiven, and plus, that better people perhaps did not rule in Slytherin and Snape wanted to be among the ruling ones.

That would suggest that Lily's "best friend" didn't know her at all, if he considered her to be okay with bigotry.

I still think he needed somehow to join the ideology to live peacefully in his house the same way a Griffindor with pro-Voldemort ideas would have had a hard life.

Someone with pro-Voldemort ideas deserves to get a hard time, imo. Considering what Voldemort stood for.

Ok, you've got your point here, numbers don't lie, and he could have chosen other people, he just went for those who were more impressive, againg this leads us to social rasons for his choice, social Teenanger reasons (wanting to be in the top) .
And maybe Lily knew there were better people in Slytherin, but in Snape's eyes, when he was powerful all this would be forgiven, and plus, that better people perhaps did not rule in Slytherin and Snape wanted to be among the ruling ones.
Or maybe being poor plus not belonging to the DE ideas was to much for living in Slytherin.

I still think he needed somehow to join the ideology to live peacefully in his house the same way a Griffindor with pro-Voldemort ideas would have had a hard life.

And also, despite what JKR says, what we are shown in cannon is that the number of students per house were small and that would make the number of DE much more important so the first numbers (that the DE were not so many) must be taken with a pinch of salt.
It is undoubted that they had strong influence, even if they were not so many.


Peer pressure is a stong force in a young person's life. To totally eliminate it from the equation when looking at Lily and Severus' relationship and breakup is to remove a very important factor. Each of them had been "enduring" five years of this when SWM happened (we know, of course, that it was at the end of their Fifth Year).

Voldemort's rise to power, according to the HP Lexicon, was about the same time that Lily and Co. started at Hogwarts. By their Fifth Year he was known and feared. I think Hogwarts would have been in the same "state of war" that it was in during Harry's time after Voldemort returned, so all of the students would have been aware of political and social issues surrounding LV.

My question is: Why did it take so long for Lily to become as concerned about Severus and his DE friends as she seems to be in SWM? She would have been aware of this for years before. She doesn't seem to indicate during her lecture to him that they had discussed the issues of his friendship with Mulciber and Avery before, nor her concerns about his interest in the darks arts -- and, whether that interest was for use as defense against them, or, how was he planning to use them.

Severus seems to be caught off guard, which seems to indicate that he did not think anything about his housemates or his DA interests would be any harm to Lily. Maybe he assumed that since she was his friend she would be left alone.

I don't blame either one of them entirely, or leave either of them blameless in the breakup of the relationship, and, I still feel that it was their being sorted into the Houses that they were which was the beginning of the end.

My question is: Why did it take so long for Lily to become as concerned about Severus and his DE friends as she seems to be in SWM? She would have been aware of this for years before. She doesn't seem to indicate during her lecture to him that they had discussed the issues of his friendship with Mulciber and Avery before, nor her concerns about his interest in the darks arts -- and, whether that interest was for use as defense against them, or, how was he planning to use them.

By lecture, I'm assuming you're referring to that final conversation at the portrait. Lily had brought up the subject of Snape's friends prior to that - when she mentioned what they'd done to Mary McDonald. She describes their actions as "evil". That's a very strong word, and clearly shows her concerns about the company he's keeping, long before the end. And she tells him she can't understand why he's friends with them -showing she believes he's a better person than them, that they're a bad influence on him. The break-up outside the portrait is not the only time we hear of Lily's concerns.

Severus seems to be caught off guard, which seems to indicate that he did not think anything about his housemates or his DA interests would be any harm to Lily. Maybe he assumed that since she was his friend she would be left alone.

They wouldn't harm Lily, but other "Mudbloods" were fair game?
That still brings it back to Lily being an exception. I don't see that as respectful, or something she should accept in a relationship.

I don't blame either one of them entirely, or leave either of them blameless in the breakup of the relationship, and, I still feel that it was their being sorted into the Houses that they were which was the beginning of the end.

The Sorting shows their different priorities. Lily was sorted into Gryffindor, even though she'd more than likely had no source of positive information about that House. Snape, her only connection to the magical world, thought negatively of Gryffindor. She was not sorted into the House favoured by her friend, that he'd urged her to be in. Her priorities were not the same as Snape's, and this is something shown by the Sorting, rather than caused by it.

Their separation into different Houses still, IMO, was the beginning of their estrangement. IMO, if they had been sorted into "neutral" Houses, like Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw, I think they would have remained friends. For one thing, Severus would not have had the negative influences of Lucius Malfoy and the other fledgling DEs in Slytherin House. For another, we know there was a bitter rivalry between Gryffindor and Slytherin...we see this in the Quidditch games and the competition for the House Cup. I don't think there would have been the peer pressure on either of them in the other Houses that there was in Gryffindor and Slytherin

The Sorting shows their different priorities. Lily was sorted into Gryffindor, even though she'd more than likely had no source of positive information about that House. Snape, her only connection to the magical world, thought negatively of Gryffindor. She was not sorted into the House favoured by her friend, that he'd urged her to be in. Her priorities were not the same as Snape's, and this is something shown by the Sorting, rather than caused by it.
That's a very good point. From what we've seen, Lily had "representatives" of both Gryffindor and Slytherin on the train. James and Sirius got on her bad side pretty quickly and they (at least, James did) wanted to be in Gryffindor. Snape was her best friend and he wanted to be in Slytherin, and he wanted her to be in that house as well. Despite all this, she ended up in Gryffindor.

I find this interesting. The hat sat on her head for barely a second before shouting "Gryffindor" so either she had no reservations about any of the houses, or she was just so very much a Gryffindor that it weighed out any preference for another house.

So either she was just that brave and chivalrous, or she did not judge either Gryffindor or Slytherin based on the people around her, which I think showed great maturity for her age. I think it's a mix of both; she really was extremely brave, but she also didn't seem to hold any sort of prejudice.

Originally Posted by FurryDice
The Sorting shows their different priorities. Lily was sorted into Gryffindor, even though she'd more than likely had no source of positive information about that House. Snape, her only connection to the magical world, thought negatively of Gryffindor. She was not sorted into the House favoured by her friend, that he'd urged her to be in. Her priorities were not the same as Snape's, and this is something shown by the Sorting, rather than caused by it.

Let me clarify my previous statement: I believe that the sorting, by putting them in different Houses, for whatever reason, was the beginning of the end for their friendship. I think it started going downhill from that point.

Yes, they were sorted with consideration to their "priorities," or character traits, or whatever it is that the Sorting Hat uses to determine the proper House. But, we know that Severus wanted to be in Slytherin, and, since we see with Harry that the Hat also takes that into consideration, that's where he ended up.

We are not shown that Lily had a strong desire to be in any particular House. I would guess that she'd have wanted to be in Slytherin, but, we are not shown her whispering, "Slytherin, please," the way Harry whispered, "Not Slytherin. Not Slytherin."
So, I would take this to mean she was sorted strictly on character traits, and, in that category, she was a true Gryffindor.

My point, though, is that the very intense rivalry and dislike for each other of the two Houses did have an impact on their friendship over the years. IMO, that is part of why it took so long for Lily to stop overlooking Severus' faults and to start seperating herself from him because of them. IMO, if he'd called her a "Mudblood" in their first or possibly second years, she would have been really angry with him, but would have eventually forgiven him.

I do think the influence of each House on each one of them had a major impact on their relationship. The influence on Lily was more positive because she became aware of what was going on since Voldemort came to power and how Muggles and Muggleborns were being treated.

The influence on Severus, obviously, was more negative. I think the indoctrination into the DEs was subtle. I hardly think they announced themselves as a "bunch of torturing, murdering, racist thugs." They probably worked on the First Years right from the start, planting their scumbag ideas and nurturing them for the time the students were at Hogwarts. Then, when they were "adults" and could use their magic outside of school, they were ready to join Voldemort's forces.

For someone like Severus, who was seeking a more impressive status, this would have been very attractive, IMO. He already had a negative feeling toward Muggles because of his father, and possibly growing up as the only magic child in his immediate neighborhood. (We see how the Muggle boys treated Dumbledore's sister when she was just coming into her powers. I'm fairly sure Seveus, in Spinner's End, would have been treated as a "freak" or oddity). So, I would think the fledgling DEs would have started working on that and then the rest of the indoctrination. Since Severus did not see Lily as a Muggle, I don't think it would have occurred to him immediately -- maybe not until she brought it up to him sometime -- that she would be in danger under Voldemort's power.

Had they been sorted into Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff, Severus wouldn't have been exposed to the negatives of Slytherin House. Lily would, IMO, have been the same person no matter where she was sorted because she was likeable and got along with others. Severus and she would have probably remained friends, and, I doubt that belonging to either of those Houses, he would have been interested in becoming a DE. He might have stilll been interested in the Dark Arts, but, I think it would have been to defend against them.

Those are just my thoughts.

Let me clarify my previous statement: I believe that the sorting, by putting them in different Houses, for whatever reason, was the beginning of the end for their friendship. I think it started going downhill from that point.

Yes, they were sorted with consideration to their "priorities," or character traits, or whatever it is that the Sorting Hat uses to determine the proper House. But, we know that Severus wanted to be in Slytherin, and, since we see with Harry that the Hat also takes that into consideration, that's where he ended up.

We are not shown that Lily had a strong desire to be in any particular House. I would guess that she'd have wanted to be in Slytherin, but, we are not shown her whispering, "Slytherin, please," the way Harry whispered, "Not Slytherin. Not Slytherin."
So, I would take this to mean she was sorted strictly on character traits, and, in that category, she was a true Gryffindor.

My point, though, is that the very intense rivalry and dislike for each other of the two Houses did have an impact on their friendship over the years. IMO, that is part of why it took so long for Lily to stop overlooking Severus' faults and to start seperating herself from him because of them. IMO, if he'd called her a "Mudblood" in their first or possibly second years, she would have been really angry with him, but would have eventually forgiven him.

I do think the influence of each House on each one of them had a major impact on their relationship. The influence on Lily was more positive because she became aware of what was going on since Voldemort came to power and how Muggles and Muggleborns were being treated.

The influence on Severus, obviously, was more negative. I think the indoctrination into the DEs was subtle. I hardly think they announced themselves as a "bunch of torturing, murdering, racist thugs." They probably worked on the First Years right from the start, planting their scumbag ideas and nurturing them for the time the students were at Hogwarts. Then, when they were "adults" and could use their magic outside of school, they were ready to join Voldemort's forces.

For someone like Severus, who was seeking a more impressive status, this would have been very attractive, IMO. He already had a negative feeling toward Muggles because of his father, and possibly growing up as the only magic child in his immediate neighborhood. (We see how the Muggle boys treated Dumbledore's sister when she was just coming into her powers. I'm fairly sure Seveus, in Spinner's End, would have been treated as a "freak" or oddity). So, I would think the fledgling DEs would have started working on that and then the rest of the indoctrination. Since Severus did not see Lily as a Muggle, I don't think it would have occurred to him immediately -- maybe not until she brought it up to him sometime -- that she would be in danger under Voldemort's power.

Had they been sorted into Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff, Severus wouldn't have been exposed to the negatives of Slytherin House. Lily would, IMO, have been the same person no matter where she was sorted because she was likeable and got along with others. Severus and she would have probably remained friends, and, I doubt that belonging to either of those Houses, he would have been interested in becoming a DE. He might have stilll been interested in the Dark Arts, but, I think it would have been to defend against them.

Those are just my thoughts.

I think young age is the clue, they were indoctrinated when they were young enough to absorb and process the indoctrination as a part of them and without questioning.

Coming back to the nazi example, SS agents were also very young and it was no casual thing, as the supperiors picked them when young on purpose so they "forget their wothless ego and give all to the cause".
Same happened to Snape, he was taken when he was too young and wanted to built himself into a strong man, and DE was shown to him as the best way to do it.

As for Lily, she probably had been the same even in Slitherin her priorities were very clear, but until he was "modeled" into a DE, her priorities never seem to crash with his very much.

Coming back to the nazi example, SS agents were also very young and it was no casual thing, as the supperiors picked them when young on purpose so they "forget their wothless ego and give all to the cause".
Same happened to Snape, he was taken when he was too young and wanted to built himself into a strong man, and DE was shown to him as the best way to do it.
This is addressed to the entire thread. If this analogy fits, then Lily is the equivalent of Jewish person/ethnic minorities the Nazis were persecuting. I think that's even more reason for why Lily would have feared Snape. And I think the idea that she should have stayed and tried to help him more would be pretty unreasonable then.

I think this analogy probably doesn't help us any further. Let's just discuss Lily based on what we know from JKR's world.

I think this analogy probably doesn't help us any further. Let's just discuss Lily based on what we know from JKR's world.

I believe the nazi example fits more the DE part, as the oppresed part in Germany were people of very different extraction, and in JKR world they are pretty similar or homogenous group (muggle borns)

I apologise for not reading all of the previous posts, but I am wondering, did Lily realise that by sacrificing herself to save Harry she was invoking a ancient type of magic? Or did she just act as a mother would act?

I apologise for not reading all of the previous posts, but I am wondering, did Lily realise that by sacrificing herself to save Harry she was invoking a ancient type of magic? Or did she just act as a mother would act?

I doubt that, in the moment when she thought her child was in danger, she thought that sacrificing herself would ensure Harry's safety. What she did was apparently ancient magic, so it's possible that Lily didn't even know that her sacrifice would even protect Harry. IMO, she acted just like a mother would act because Harry's life meant more to her than her own.

I think she just acted on instinct, as a mother would. I don't think there was a magical calculation involved. That part was for Dumbledore to figure out. :)

Jo addressed the topic back in 2005. The Leaky Cauldron[/I], 16 July 2005]ES: This is one of my burning questions since the third book - why did Voldemort offer Lily so many chances to live? Would he actually have let her live? JKR: Mmhm.
ES: Why?
JKR: [silence] Can't tell you. But he did offer, you're absolutely right. Don't you want to ask me why James's death didn't protect Lily and Harry? There’s your answer, you've just answered your own question, because she could have lived and chose to die. James was going to be killed anyway. Do you see what I mean? I’m not saying James wasn't ready to; he died trying to protect his family but he was going to be murdered anyway. He had no - he wasn't given a choice, so he rushed into it in a kind of animal way, I think there are distinctions in courage. James was immensely brave. But the caliber of Lily's bravery was, I think in this instance, higher because she could have saved herself. Now any mother, any normal mother would have done what Lily did. So in that sense her courage too was of an animal quality but she was given time to choose. James wasn't. It's like an intruder entering your house, isn't it? You would instinctively rush them. But if in cold blood you were told, "Get out of the way," you know, what would you do? I mean, I don't think any mother would stand aside from their child. But does that answer it? She did very consciously lay down her life. She had a clear choice -
ES: And James didn't.
JKR: Did he clearly die to try and protect Harry specifically given a clear choice? No. It's a subtle distinction and there's slightly more to it than that but that's most of the answer.
MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in front of Harry?
JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one, therefore, knew that could happen.
MA: So no one - Voldemort or anyone using Avada Kedavra - ever gave someone a choice and then they took that option [to die] -
JKR: They may have been given a choice, but not in that particular way.


So Lily really had no idea, since no one had ever died in such a way. It was simply her instinct to die protecting her child, when she could have lived that did it.

I think she just acted on instinct, as a mother would.

I feel it's a slight disservice to Lily's character, in pinpointing her actions to instinct alone. We are shown in the Potterverse a few eschew the welfare of others, such as their children, in favour of their own comfort. Self-survival is also a base instinct that a few adhere to. Lily made a conscious choice to stand firm and shield her child from harm, despite being offered chances to walk free. That sacrifice took an immense courage, unwavering conviction and love. Imo.

I don't think there was a magical calculation involved.

I agree, I don't think she knew dying for Harry would unlock an ancient magical protection. Especially, as we're told it's never happened before where someone is clearly offered a choice.

I feel it's a slight dis-service to Lily's character, in pinpointing her actions to instinct alone. We are shown in the Potterverse a few eschew the welfare of others, such as their children, in favour of their own comfort. Self-survival is also a base instinct that a few adhere to. Lily made a conscious choice to stand firm and shield her child from harm, despite being offered chances to walk free. That sacrifice took an immense courage, unwavering conviction and depth of love. Imo.Right, it wasn't just instinct. It was extreme bravery for Lily to stand there knowing she could live and chose death.

Right, it wasn't just instinct. It was extreme bravery for Lily to stand there knowing she could live and chose death.

I agree. Plus, I think it was even more courageous given that she had no idea it would make a difference, She couldn't have known that her courage and defiance of Voldemort would save her child. As far as she knew, it would do nothing but buy him a few more seconds. That's incredible courage, IMO - even believing it would do no good, she refused to stand aside and save herself, to watch her child be murdered.

Plus, I think it was even more courageous given that she had no idea it would make a difference, She couldn't have known that her courage and defiance of Voldemort would save her child. As far as she knew, it would do nothing but buy him a few more seconds. That's incredible courage, IMO - even believing it would do no good, she refused to stand aside and save herself, to watch her child be murdered.

Exactly, it's a profound choice. :agree:

I was not intending in any way to do Lily a disservice, so I'm sorry if the comment came off that way. I was posting late at night from an iPhone, responding to the question of whether or not Lily was conscious of the magic that her act of bravery was invoking. I used the word "just" to contrast my point to the other point (i.e., that she was conscious of the magic involved). iPhone shorthand. Sorry.

My actual point was that I did not believe she was conscious of the magic involved but that she was conscious rather of the threat to her child. I used the word instinct because I do think instinct - a mother's instinct - was part of what motivated her.

But no, I don't think her act can be reduced to instinct alone. I agree that it was a very courageous act... and a profound choice.

Thank you everyone for clearing that up. I knew she had reacted instinctly, but a lot of people say that Lily was gifted so, I just wondered if she realised that she was invoking an ancient form of magic. But, Voldemort said he "forgot" this type of magic. I wonder if Voldemort really forgot or didn't know about it either.
I still like Lily. This shows she belonged in Gryffindor.

I moved to a new high school about a month ago, and i entered my Advanced Functions class, and the first thing i notice is a girl who fits the same discrption of Lily Potter. I think i fell in love that day????????

I moved to a new high school about a month ago, and i entered my Advanced Functions class, and the first thing i notice is a girl who fits the same discrption of Lily Potter. I think i fell in love that day????????

Wow, lucky for you, man!! :tu: :lol:

Whatever you do...don't ever call her a mudblood. ;)

I was not intending in any way to do Lily a disservice, so I'm sorry if the comment came off that way.

No worries. I was thinking about the scenerios, which were polar opposites, and felt they were a tad restrictive as they excluded the grey area in the middle. I just felt it was worth exploring that further, because it adds an important element to the Lily character. :)

The only problem i have with Lily as a character is that she doesn't seem real. In the books she is described as good looking, kind, thoughtful and very smart and not once do we ever hear about any of her flaws.

Of course a lot of this would be down to people wanting Harry to love the mother he never knew, wanting him to think best of her and as a result they wouldnt mention her flaws even if they were minor. Harry wouldn't have found out about James's flaws if he didn't view Snape's memories and prior to that we certainly got the impression that James was perfect as well. People were not willing to speak i'll of Harry's parents in front of him and as a result we don't really know anything about Lily's flaws.

The only problem i have with Lily as a character is that she doesn't seem real. In the books she is described as good looking, kind, thoughtful and very smart and not once do we ever hear about any of her flaws.

Some people find her rather sharp and not very sympathetic to Snape about the werewolf prank ... although, to be fair to Lily, she heard about the incident second hand, rather than from Snape himself directly, and Snape was standing in front of her without having suffered any visible harm.

I'm not sure about the 'very smart' -- she certainly comes across as bright, and an excellent Potions student. :)

Her letter to Sirius reveals a bit more about her personality: she seems cheerful and also seems to put on a brave face, despite the stresses and strains of having to go into hiding. She makes a joke about the 'horrible' vase that Petunia sent her ... make of that what you will. Again, some have seen that as Lily being rather dismissive towards Petunia. In the light of Petunia's burning resentment and hostility, I find Lily's reaction pretty mild. :whistle: One does wonder whether sending Lily a present (the vase) was some kind of olive branch from Petunia (which makes me sad to think of. :sigh: )

She is also compassionate, crying about the woman and her family murdered by the Death Eaters.

In her final, tragic moments, Lily comes across to me as very young as well as very brave. She was only 21. :(

Some people find her rather sharp and not very sympathetic to Snape about the werewolf prank ... although, to be fair to Lily, she heard about the incident second hand, rather than from Snape himself directly, and Snape was standing in front of her without having suffered any visible harm.

I'm not sure about the 'very smart' -- she certainly comes across as bright, and an excellent Potions student. :)

Her letter to Sirius reveals a bit more about her personality: she seems cheerful and also seems to put on a brave face, despite the stresses and strains of having to go into hiding. She makes a joke about the 'horrible' vase that Petunia sent her ... make of that what you will. Again, some have seen that as Lily being rather dismissive towards Petunia. In the light of Petunia's burning resentment and hostility, I find Lily's reaction pretty mild. :whistle: One does wonder whether sending Lily a present (the vase) was some kind of olive branch from Petunia (which makes me sad to think of. :sigh: )

She is also compassionate, crying about the woman and her family murdered by the Death Eaters.

In her final, tragic moments, Lily comes across to me as very young as well as very brave. She was only 21. :(

When I first read HP I thought Harry's parenets where much older, like 27 or more, actually 21 is nearly being a teenanger, I think Lily and James do it pretty well for their age and that people usually judges them by much older person standards. I believe that JKR pushed the dates and ages a little bit in this topic so that she could have Lupin, Sirius and Snape young enough to be still struggling with life (although I don't see why a forty something would struggle with life less than a thirty something). Or maybe in the UK and in JKR's times it was normal that people marry so young?

I don't consider Lily to be too perfect to look unreal, as we see in TPT, she cares for Petunia and later for Snape, but she is never able to step in their shoes, and fully understand. Somehow she is victim of her success her life is so pleasant (ok, letting appart being persecuted for muggleborn) but yet popular and good student, that she simply cannot imagine Snape's motivations to act like he did.

When I first read HP I thought Harry's parenets where much older, like 27 or more, actually 21 is nearly being a teenanger, I think Lily and James do it pretty well for their age and that people usually judges them by much older person standards. I believe that JKR pushed the dates and ages a little bit in this topic so that she could have Lupin, Sirius and Snape young enough to be still struggling with life (although I don't see why a forty something would struggle with life less than a thirty something). Or maybe in the UK and in JKR's times it was normal that people marry so young?


It seems like Lily and James (like Molly and Arthur) rushed to get married in the midst of the war they were fighting. Getting married around that age certainly isn't odd, and during a time of immense crisis you can see why one, uncertain of their future, would make such a decision. As for pushing the dates together, I do not think that it is for the reason you stated. I don't think she purposely made them younger but simply had a timeline of dates setup.

I don't think that Lily seems too perfect to be real.

She doesn't seem to be especially good at understanding how other people are feeling, and she certainly didn't seem to be especially forgiving. She takes years to forgive James for what happened on the Hogwarts Express, and she certainly doesn't forgive Snape for calling her an admittedly nasty name. She certainly could lack tact.

She was brave and pretty and smart, but there were less savory aspects of her personality. We just don't hear about them as much.

To me Lily has a great failure, and it is her inhability of understand other's feelings (like you said). That makes her unable to really understand Snape, he had no clue what he was going through, and worse of all, she thought she understood.

James for what happened on the Hogwarts Express.

That makes it sounds like the incident on the Hogwarts express was the only time she'd ever seen his bad side. She says that he hexes people because he can and he's arrogant. Her words imply that she dislikes him not because of the one incident on the train but because she thinks he's a bully and doesn't like that. When we first see her speak of James, it's as he's bullying someone so I think she dislikes the behavior she has seen from him throughout the years.

To me Lily has a great failure, and it is her inhability of understand other's feelings (like you said). That makes her unable to really understand Snape, he had no clue what he was going through, and worse of all, she thought she understood.

Even if she didn't understand all the pressure Snape had to go through, I think she still made the right decision to end the friendship. Being in Slytherin doesn't excuse his ideology or the way he treated her in SWM. The friendship seemed doomed to end, IMO.

she certainly doesn't forgive Snape for calling her an admittedly nasty name.

I think that's understandable considering what he said. I think she was more hurt by it than she let on to be considering her status as a muggleborn in the WW and the fact that it was her best friend who said it to her.

To me Lily has a great failure, and it is her inhability of understand other's feelings (like you said). That makes her unable to really understand Snape, he had no clue what he was going through, and worse of all, she thought she understood.

We could say the same about Snape. He knew Lily just as long as she knew him and he didn't figure out that she was not impressed by the Dark Arts and his friends Mulciber and Avery. I thought she made that very plain when she told him his friends were creepy and their actions evil.

I don't think that Lily seems too perfect to be real.

She doesn't seem to be especially good at understanding how other people are feeling, and she certainly didn't seem to be especially forgiving. She takes years to forgive James for what happened on the Hogwarts Express, and she certainly doesn't forgive Snape for calling her an admittedly nasty name. She certainly could lack tact.

I don't think refusing to accept bigotry from a friend was a flaw, I think it shows self respect.

To me Lily has a great failure, and it is her inhability of understand other's feelings (like you said). That makes her unable to really understand Snape, he had no clue what he was going through, and worse of all, she thought she understood.

I cannot see why Lily should have understood that Snape wanted to hang out with people who considered her subhuman. Nor do I see why she should have "understood" when he called her a Mudblood. IMO, she understood perfectly well what that word meant - it means the person using it considers the target inferior, subhuman. I think she had every right to have self respect and to want to end a friendship with someone who didn't respect her, and who betrayed her in that fashion. It shows she was a strong young woman, who wasn't going to let herself be treated badly.

Even if she didn't understand all the pressure Snape had to go through, I think she still made the right decision to end the friendship. Being in Slytherin doesn't excuse his ideology or the way he treated her in SWM. The friendship seemed doomed to end, IMO.

I agree. IMO, Snape betrayed Lily when he threw the worst racist insult in the wizarding world at her, and I personally think he betrayed her before that by hanging out with people who considered people of her birth inferior. And warning him about his other friends was what a true friend does - a true friend doesn't try to "understand" and support one's interest in a criminal gang.

I cannot see why Lily should have understood that Snape wanted to hang out with people who considered her subhuman. Nor do I see why she should have "understood" when he called her a Mudblood. IMO, she understood perfectly well what that word meant - it means the person using it considers the target inferior, subhuman. I think she had every right to have self respect and to want to end a friendship with someone who didn't respect her, and who betrayed her in that fashion. It shows she was a strong young woman, who wasn't going to let herself be treated badly.
I agree. I think it's easy to forget how terrible the word "mudblood" was in their world because it's not relevant to our world, but to them it was as bad as any racial slur. Perhaps Lily didn't understand why Snape was doing what he was doing, but I don't think many would; he was trying to be her friend while also hanging around people who thought her blood was dirty for being born to Muggles. They were the type of people agreeing with Voldemort for wanting her and her family killed, and Snape was hanging around with them. Expecting Lily to empathize with that, I think, is unfair.

I cannot see why Lily should have understood that Snape wanted to hang out with people who considered her subhuman. Nor do I see why she should have "understood" when he called her a Mudblood. IMO, she understood perfectly well what that word meant - it means the person using it considers the target inferior, subhuman. I think she had every right to have self respect and to want to end a friendship with someone who didn't respect her, and who betrayed her in that fashion. It shows she was a strong young woman, who wasn't going to let herself be treated badly.



.

It is not about understanding why she is being called "mudblood" but about giving real support to a friend who needs it. Not apparent support, but real one, really asking what was in his mind, and daily, not asking in the middle of a discussion "what do you see in them" but asking daily to Snape how was he feeling, if he was ok. Then he would have felt confidence enough to tell her how much he wanted to be over other people. I wonder if Lily ever listened to Severus plans for the future, his dreams, whatever... or if it came a time when their conversations were always supperficial.
If he had felt that she was really by him, he wouldn't have had the need to match with the other Slytherins, and would never have joined the Death Eaters.
I mean, imagine what was in Snape's mind when she told him Mulciber and Avery were creepy; it must have been something like this: "come on I am trying to make a place in the world for me, to be someone, you can admire, and all you tell me is not to hang around with them just because they played a prank in a stupid Griffindor girl? Then you don't want me to be someone! You just enjoy watching me being in the bottom!" . Because remember that for that time Snape regarded Death Eaters like the people who would rule in the future. If Lily had really asked him how things were for him, perhaps she had discovered how James teased him.

What I believe is that by the time they disscuss their friendship was already slipping away, but not only because of Snape's but also because of Lily's obvliviousness of Severus real situation.

Also, when you are in the bottom (and Snape was) it is very easy to make the wrong decission, and when you are at the top, it is very easy to make the right decission.

Lily, never understood that Snape could not live isolated in Slytherin, and this never lead her to think that if Severus looked for other friends perhaps it means that her frienship was not enough, that she was not giving enough from herself.

I agree that Snape didn't either understand how hurt Lily would be by his friendship with wannabe Death Eaters, but I do acknowledge that he understood her more than she did, only by the time of SWM, he had stopped understanding her and his head was already full of DE ideas. However I think Snape managed to understand Lily a bit more than Lily understood him. Just slipped in one moment, and showed her a part of what was growing inside him.

I am not stating that Lily was a bad friend, only that she was somehow victim of her success and to some degree, inmature as James. By SWM she had started regarding Severus the same way James did (to certain degree) why, if not, did she smiled in SWM? if your heart is with your best friend, if it really is, no good joke would make you smile. Her heart was not totally on it when she protected Snape, otherwise, neither James nor Sirius, would have stopped her from protecting Snape, not even Snape himself. She could have always protected him and then confronted him for what he had called her, and make him really apologize.

No matter how terrible calling one mudblood is, I don't believe it is worse than being hanged upside down and humillated in public. Or do you think Lily would have exchanged places with Snape?

My understanding of what you call "playing a prank on a stupid Gryffindor girl" based on what Lily actually said was that it was not a harmless prank, it was a Dark Arts curse of some kind. And I think that if Severus thought of Mary MacDonald as "a stupid Gryffindor girl," well that is every bit as shallow, immature and prejudicial as what James and Sirius did to Severus in hexing him "just because they can."

And I really don't see how being Levicorpus'ed so that your robes scunch up and people see your grey boxers is comparable to what the Death Eaters wanted done to Muggles and Muggleborns, either. There's a world of difference between humiliation and genocide.

There is no good reason for a young woman of Lily's character, heritage, intelligence and magical talent to accept being called a "mudblood" in a time when there were many people planning to wipe the Muggleborns out of existance. No-one should be expected to accept that, no matter what the history between her and the person who called her that. Severus choosing to isolate himself (and honestly, look at him wandering away after his O.W.L.'s; doesn't he look like he's already isolated, even though he is beginning to parrot the pureblood lines) in Slytherin House as the only Slytherin who thought Muggleborns were okay would not have been as dangerous as Lily accepting the pureblood view. The pureblood racists wanted her and everyone of her birth dead. Dead is bigger than humiliated. I can't say this enough. Racism is bigger than schoolyard pranks. A campaign of genocidal terrorism is bigger than Quidditch or a Gryffindor House popularity contest. The things that Severus was expecting Lily to overlook, and be friends with him anyway, just don't in my opinion compare to the things in Lily's life that were bothersome to Severus.

It is not about understanding why she is being called "mudblood" but about giving real support to a friend who needs it. Not apparent support, but real one, really asking what was in his mind, and daily, not asking in the middle of a discussion "what do you see in them" but asking daily to Snape how was he feeling, if he was ok. Then he would have felt confidence enough to tell her how much he wanted to be over other people. I wonder if Lily ever listened to Severus plans for the future, his dreams, whatever... or if it came a time when their conversations were always supperficial.

I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make. Is Lily a bad friend because we don't see her asking how Snape felt in that one scene? I think she was too shocked to find out that Snape was friends with people who practiced the Dark Arts to really ask him how he felt. She must have thought he was better than them.

It's a bit hard to judge their friendship was a whole because we are only given a couple of scenes, none of which are meant to really show the depth of their friendship, IMO. I think the memories are there to establish that they were best friends and that Snape was in love with her ever since he was a child. Their normal conversations - which very well could have included their dreams for the future - aren't ever shown because they weren't necessary to Harry. Because of this, I find it hard to say that their friendship was superficial. We simply don't know enough about them to jump to that conclusion.

If he had felt that she was really by him, he wouldn't have had the need to match with the other Slytherins, and would never have joined the Death Eaters.

I find that hard to believe. Considering Snape's background, I think being a Death Eater appealed to him in a lot of ways. JKR said that wanted to join Voldemort so he would look impressive and couldn't understand how Lily felt. I think that fits my interpretation as well. Snape seemed doomed to follow that path.

I mean, imagine what was in Snape's mind when she told him Mulciber and Avery were creepy; it must have been something like this: "come on I am trying to make a place in the world for me, to be someone, you can admire, and all you tell me is not to hang around with them just because they played a prank in a stupid Griffindor girl? Then you don't want me to be someone! You just enjoy watching me being in the bottom!" . Because remember that for that time Snape regarded Death Eaters like the people who would rule in the future. If Lily had really asked him how things were for him, perhaps she had discovered how James teased him.

What I believe is that by the time they disscuss their friendship was already slipping away, but not only because of Snape's but also because of Lily's obvliviousness of Severus real situation.

IMO, they were slipping away because they were going on opposite paths. Lily was obviously against Voldemort from the very beginning and, unsurprisingly, she joined a group that would fight him at all costs. Snape, on the other hand, was hoping to join the very people that Lily hated. To me, this has little to do with Lily herself and more to do with who they were both becoming.

Lily, never understood that Snape could not live isolated in Slytherin, and this never lead her to think that if Severus looked for other friends perhaps it means that her frienship was not enough, that she was not giving enough from herself.

[...]

She could have always protected him and then confronted him for what he had called her, and make him really apologize.

Wait, so Lily should be held responsible because he found other friends? :wow: What does she have to do with Snape becoming friends with future Death Eaters? That was his own choice. She was not his mother and wasn't obligated to make sure that he was a "good boy" and hung out with the right crowd. That's a lot of responsibility to put on a teenager.

No matter how terrible calling one mudblood is, I don't believe it is worse than being hanged upside down and humillated in public. Or do you think Lily would have exchanged places with Snape?

I completely disagree. There is a huge difference between being humiliated by an enemy and being humiliated by a best friend. Most people would be hurt more when someone they love and trust publicly hurt them in the way Snape did to Lily. Moreover, "Mudblood" is a hateful slur that was too relevant at the time because Muggleborns like Lily were being tortured and/or killed. There is no excusing what James and Sirius did, but that is nothing compared to what Snape did to Lily, IMO.

I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make. Is Lily a bad friend because we don't see her asking how Snape felt in that one scene? I think she was too shocked to find out that Snape was friends with people who practiced the Dark Arts to really ask him how he felt. She must have thought he was better than them.

It's a bit hard to judge their friendship was a whole because we are only given a couple of scenes, none of which are meant to really show the depth of their friendship, IMO. I think the memories are there to establish that they were best friends and that Snape was in love with her ever since he was a child. Their normal conversations - which very well could have included their dreams for the future - aren't ever shown because they weren't necessary to Harry. Because of this, I find it hard to say that their friendship was superficial. We simply don't know enough about them to jump to that conclusion.



.

It is true that we are never given a full view of Lily-Snape friendship, but judging by the aftercomes (by how their frienship is by 5th year) it started as a strong one and became thinner with time passing. To me it is clear that when we see them arguing in the yard, their frienship is already deteriorated, so probably this is the reason Snape went to look for other friends, Slythering ones. In his view, Lily relying everything to Lily was not safe any more, because the Griffindor-against-Slytherin predjuice was already taking a toll on her. So he needed something to get her back, and in Severus battered mind (not mad, but without strong moral fundations) DE would be impressive and even "right". What I want to make clear is that, to me, the break between Snape an Lily came before Severus staring to wander around with DE and asuming their ideas.



I find that hard to believe. Considering Snape's background, I think being a Death Eater appealed to him in a lot of ways. JKR said that wanted to join Voldemort so he would look impressive and couldn't understand how Lily felt. I think that fits my interpretation as well. Snape seemed doomed to follow that path.


.

Had he been sure of Lily's friendship, he wouldn't have need anything impressive, so he wouldn't have need the DE. Even if he was always interested in DA, it would have remained as an interest (the same he has after Lily's death). And he would remained by her side, if he was totally sure of her, and not doubting if "the Potter brat" will be more interesting to her than him.



IMO, they were slipping away because they were going on opposite paths. Lily was obviously against Voldemort from the very beginning and, unsurprisingly, she joined a group that would fight him at all costs. Snape, on the other hand, was hoping to join the very people that Lily hated. To me, this has little to do with Lily herself and more to do with who they were both becoming.



Not every Slytherin is a DE in potence, just look at Slughorn. The fact that he was in Slytherin didn't make him a DE from first year. The fact that he felt he was loosing Lily made him hate Griffindors (with the exception of Lily) made him search for something strong, even find refuge to his loneliness in the power that DE brought to him.


I completely disagree. There is a huge difference between being humiliated by an enemy and being humiliated by a best friend. Most people would be hurt more when someone they love and trust publicly hurt them in the way Snape did to Lily. Moreover, "Mudblood" is a hateful slur that was too relevant at the time because Muggleborns like Lily were being tortured and/or killed. There is no excusing what James and Sirius did, but that is nothing compared to what Snape did to Lily, IMO.

I daresay, being hanged upside down is worse than being insulted by a person who is hanged upside down. A person who is being humilliated and is not totally in control of himself. And plus, she had already half-smiled when he insulted her. It was her, who had her moment of weakness before he did. We don't know if he saw her smiling or not, but in the case he had seen, to watch a friend smile while you are being humiliated must be even worse than being humilliated by a friend, specially a friend who is having really hard time at the moment. And also, I think insult is not the same as humilliate, I mean, humillation takes longer in time, and insult is just a moment, insult is an offense, but from humilliation, a scar, a bigger scar than from insulting, remains.

It is true that they were war times, and that Mudblood, must have meant a lot in those times, howver, the general environment we see in Hogwarts, and what we are told about Harry's father and friends, reflects a normal or nearly normal day to day living at school, this must mean that in their fifth year, even though DE were rising, they were not in the height of their power, so still the Mudblood concept was, most likely, only a concept in the minds of the students. Just like today there are a lot of insults, that even if they are strong, they are not as bad as being humilliated in public.

My understanding of what you call "playing a prank on a stupid Gryffindor girl" based on what Lily actually said was that it was not a harmless prank, it was a Dark Arts curse of some kind. And I think that if Severus thought of Mary MacDonald as "a stupid Gryffindor girl," well that is every bit as shallow, immature and prejudicial as what James and Sirius did to Severus in hexing him "just because they can."

And I really don't see how being Levicorpus'ed so that your robes scunch up and people see your grey boxers is comparable to what the Death Eaters wanted done to Muggles and Muggleborns, either. There's a world of difference between humiliation and genocide.

There is no good reason for a young woman of Lily's character, heritage, intelligence and magical talent to accept being called a "mudblood" in a time when there were many people planning to wipe the Muggleborns out of existance. No-one should be expected to accept that, no matter what the history between her and the person who called her that. Severus choosing to isolate himself (and honestly, look at him wandering away after his O.W.L.'s; doesn't he look like he's already isolated, even though he is beginning to parrot the pureblood lines) in Slytherin House as the only Slytherin who thought Muggleborns were okay would not have been as dangerous as Lily accepting the pureblood view. The pureblood racists wanted her and everyone of her birth dead. Dead is bigger than humiliated. I can't say this enough. Racism is bigger than schoolyard pranks. A campaign of genocidal terrorism is bigger than Quidditch or a Gryffindor House popularity contest. The things that Severus was expecting Lily to overlook, and be friends with him anyway, just don't in my opinion compare to the things in Lily's life that were bothersome to Severus.

I never said Lily should have accepted the pureblood ideology, I only said he could have understand that Severus had a lot of pressure in his House, by the Marauders, and that he was being terribly humilliated at the moment, and only a 15year old. She should have put a stop to that, but understanding what were the circumstances in the moment he did.

By the moment the Mary McDonald incident he was already very into DE ideology because he felt unsure of Lily's affection and wanted something to impress her. Had he been well supported by Lily, this, wouldn't have been a problem, and he wouldn't have joined the DE, so he would never considered Mary to be something worthless.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but please be careful to make it clear that what are saying is your opinion and not fact. If you want to prove your point, you need to give examples from the books for what you are claiming to be true.

1. Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
I think that Lily's relationship with Snape was similar to that of Harry and Hagrid. Snape and Hagrid were their first connections to the magical world. It's like the first person to introduce you to Harry Potter, or chocolate or something like that. They will leave a lasting impression on you.

2. Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
Yes, Petunia could've stopped being jealous [staff edit] and understood that Lily had no control over her being a witch anymor ethatn she herself had had over her own hair colour. Lily genuinely tried to make Petunia happy, but she couldn't get over her petty jealousy

3. Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.
I think she was a person who had friends in all the houses who were good people with strong morale values. She herself was a beautiful person, inside and out, so i think she'd have befriended anyone who was also a good person. You could see that she disapproved of Snapes death eater friends because in her opinion, they were'nt good people - and I dont disagree.

4. According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
Her friends were people similar to herself, so they couldn't see why someone like them could be friends with someone so different. But Lily thought she saw the real Snape, the kind, caring, bestfriend Snape. But they hadn't gotten to know him like that, so they couldn't understand.

5. Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?
I think she never forgave him because this behaviour verified her suspicions that he was actually the person that her friends had been telling her he was all along. For example, if you've never gotten a needle, and all your friends say it hurts, but you refuse to beleive that it does, and then once you get one you realize it hurts, you're going to feel silly for beleiving it wouldn't. It's kinda the same with Lily and Snape. She refused to beleive he was anyone other than her childhood bestfriend, and when it was proven with the "mudblood" incident that her friends had been right all along, she felt betrayed. And plus, her marrying his worst enemy probably wasn't the best thing for their relationship. But james was better for her in my opinion.

That makes it sounds like the incident on the Hogwarts express was the only time she'd ever seen his bad side. She says that he hexes people because he can and he's arrogant. Her words imply that she dislikes him not because of the one incident on the train but because she thinks he's a bully and doesn't like that. When we first see her speak of James, it's as he's bullying someone so I think she dislikes the behavior she has seen from him throughout the years.
Oh, I'm not saying that her impression over the years was based entirely on that. However, she clearly gives him (and Sirius) the cold shoulder when she sits down next to them after being Sorted. I was also kind of assuming (perhaps wrongly) that James was not running around jinxing and hexing people his first year or two, because he was so young. Even Malfoy wasn't doing that. Additionally, given what everyone else in the series has said about James, I felt like she might have been being a little unfair. I understand that James had a bit of a swelled head and could be reckless, but I just don't think everyone would remember him as fondly as they do if he was as big a bully as she seemed to indicate. That might just be me, though.


I don't think refusing to accept bigotry from a friend was a flaw, I think it shows self respect.


I cannot see why Lily should have understood that Snape wanted to hang out with people who considered her subhuman. Nor do I see why she should have "understood" when he called her a Mudblood. IMO, she understood perfectly well what that word meant - it means the person using it considers the target inferior, subhuman. I think she had every right to have self respect and to want to end a friendship with someone who didn't respect her, and who betrayed her in that fashion. It shows she was a strong young woman, who wasn't going to let herself be treated badly.

Hmm. I think that maybe I was a little unclear in how I worded that.

I'm not saying that one should just automatically accept bigotry from a friend. If I were Lily, I'd have stopped talking to Snape long before that. My point was in no way to vilify her from not forgiving him for to say that she should have. She shouldn't have, imo. I also disagree with some other posters who have said that she didn't seem able to understand where other people were coming from--I don't see why it was her responsibility to understand Snape, for example, rather than the other way around, especially since Lily's grievance was much easier to understand than Snape's.

I was simply disagreeing with the idea that Lily didn't seem real, and that we only saw bright sides of her personality. I think that what we see of her does indicate that she was not a very forgiving person. Is that necessarily a bad thing? No. As you said, forgiveness can sometimes get in the way of self-respect.

However, I do think that her reactions to negative situations were very real, precisely because she didn't just let it all wash away and give people infinite numbers of chances.