Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis

I think that Lily treasured Snape's friendship during her first five years at Hogwarts because of the fact he was a link to the Wizarding world. When Lily goes home during the summer holidays, being a muggle-born, she is almost completely isolated from the Wizarding world where she belongs. Of course, she would have received owls from her friends at Hogwarts, but- as we know from Harry's experience- she would probably be longing to immerse herself completely in the Wizarding world again. Also, her uneasy relationship with Petunia would have made Lily feel even more isolated, as they had been close friends before Lily received her Hogwarts letter.
I feel that Lily continued her friendship with Snape through her years at Hogwarts because when she was at home, he was a physical link to the wizarding world, which I'm sure she loved. She could also have maintained her friendship because she felt that Snape knew her more than her other friends, because he had known her longest. Long lasting friendships are usually those which are most difficult to break because your past is connected together and you probably have memories which none of her other friends share.
Part of the SWM scene shows Snape waiting outside of the Gryffindor Common Room for Lily, to apologise for calling her a Mudblood. Lily eventually came out after he threatened to sleep in the corridor. Surely this shows just how sorry Snape was for what he had done, but still Lily didn't forgive him and their friendship ended. I find this odd because, when reading the books, I always got the impression that Lily was meant to be a kind hearted character, and I would have guessed that Lily would have forgiven him for his error, rather than insulting him and his friends.
Don't get me wrong, Snape calling Lily a Mudblood was an awful thing to do, especially as they were so close, but after the effort Snape put in to apologize it seems odd that 'Lovely Lily' wouldn't forgive her oldest, and closest friend.

I feel that Lily continued her friendship with Snape through her years at Hogwarts because when she was at home, he was a physical link to the wizarding world, which I'm sure she loved. She could also have maintained her friendship because she felt that Snape knew her more than her other friends, because he had known her longest.That seems very likely to me. Since she was the only witch in her family, she may have longed for more of a connection to the wizarding world. I think this must have been a large part of why Lily continued to make excuses for Severus' behavior. I don't think she wanted to let go of her oldest friend. However, I believe once he called her a Mudblood, this was the last straw, the point at which she could no longer deny what Severus had become. I fully agree with Lily's decision to end the friendship at this point and cut ties from an IMO unhealthy relationship.Surely this shows just how sorry Snape was for what he had done, but still Lily didn't forgive him and their friendship ended. I find this odd because, when reading the books, I always got the impression that Lily was meant to be a kind hearted character, and I would have guessed that Lily would have forgiven him for his error, rather than insulting him and his friends. I would have to disagree here. I do believe Lily was a kind-hearted person, but there are some things that a person should not just accept. What Snape said to Lily is one of them IMO. He did not merely insult her, but rather called her the worst racial epithet there was. IMO by ending the friendship, Lily showed strength of character for rejecting what Snape was becoming, and it showed that she respected herself enough not to let anyone label her in such a derogatory way.

Also, I'd have to disagree that Lily was insulting Snape or his friends. She merely calls out the fact that the people he was hanging around with were shady characters - which we know they, in fact, were. Actually, Lily's attempts to get Snape to see that the path he was going down shows the depth to which Lily cared about him. If she hadn't cared, I believe she'd have ended the friendship long ago and let Snape do what he wanted. But the fact that she continued to hang around with him indicates that she really didn't want to lose him.

I think that Lily treasured Snape's friendship during her first five years at Hogwarts because of the fact he was a link to the Wizarding world. When Lily goes home during the summer holidays, being a muggle-born, she is almost completely isolated from the Wizarding world where she belongs. Of course, she would have received owls from her friends at Hogwarts, but- as we know from Harry's experience- she would probably be longing to immerse herself completely in the Wizarding world again.

Yes to some extent she would probably want to get beck to the WW but I don’t think likening her experience in the holidays to Harry’s is a good comparison. I think perhaps making a comparison to Hermione would be more accurate as both Lily & Hermione are well loved by their parents – Harry one the other had had no parents and was not ‘well loved’ at Privet Drive – far from it :sigh:

So I think it more likely that Lily would have been looking forward to going home and looking forward to returning to Hogwarts in fairly equal measure. :)

Also, her uneasy relationship with Petunia would have made Lily feel even more isolated, as they had been close friends before Lily received her Hogwarts letter.

I really don’t think isolated what she would have felt - I am sure she was terribly saddened by the deterioration of her relationship with her sister (canon makes that fairly clear imo) but I think there is a big difference between feeling sad at losing the closeness of a sibling while still having a loving family (and iirc the way their parents ‘fawned’ over Lily (in Petunia’s eyes) was part of the reason she grew bitter towards her sister.) and being isolated.

I feel that Lily continued her friendship with Snape through her years at Hogwarts because when she was at home, he was a physical link to the wizarding world, which I'm sure she loved. She could also have maintained her friendship because she felt that Snape knew her more than her other friends, because he had known her longest. Long lasting friendships are usually those which are most difficult to break because your past is connected together and you probably have memories which none of her other friends share.

:agree: I think these are some of the reasons.

Part of the SWM scene shows Snape waiting outside of the Gryffindor Common Room for Lily, to apologise for calling her a Mudblood. Lily eventually came out after he threatened to sleep in the corridor. Surely this shows just how sorry Snape was for what he had done, but still Lily didn't forgive him and their friendship ended. I find this odd because, when reading the books, I always got the impression that Lily was meant to be a kind hearted character, and I would have guessed that Lily would have forgiven him for his error, rather than insulting him and his friends.
Don't get me wrong, Snape calling Lily a Mudblood was an awful thing to do, especially as they were so close, but after the effort Snape put in to apologize it seems odd that 'Lovely Lily' wouldn't forgive her oldest, and closest friend.

I can understand your feeling this odd however I think that the bother memories of their school years prior to this incident show that the friendship was gradually eroding anyway. I personally don’t think the ‘mudblood’ incident is exactly the reason why the friendship ended I think it was more the proverbial straw that broke the camels back. It was already in trouble if it hadn’t have been perhaps Lily would have listened to Sev’s apology and pointed out more clearly what else was going on. However I think the incident brought all the other problems into sharp focus for Lily and made her realise that they weren’t best friends, at least not in her eyes, anymore and probably hadn’t been for some time.

This is no comment on whether I think she was right or wrong – I think she had some very profound reasons for acting as she did. I do think it sad that her making excuses for him in the past got in the way of her telling Sev that there was a big problem growing in their relationship just as I think it sad that Sev’s neediness got in the way of him hearing what she did say – the break up of any friendship is imo a sad thing. :sigh:

I personally don’t think the ‘mudblood’ incident is exactly the reason why the friendship ended I think it was more the proverbial straw that broke the camels back. It was already in trouble if it hadn’t have been perhaps Lily would have listened to Sev’s apology and pointed out more clearly what else was going on. However I think the incident brought all the other problems into sharp focus for Lily and made her realise that they weren’t best friends, at least not in her eyes, anymore and probably hadn’t been for some time.

I see what you mean here. There wasn't a lot of information about the first five years of their friendship at Hogwarts, but thinking about it, their friendship must have been strained from the first year. Being sorted into different houses would have made it difficult to be as close as friends in the same house, especially seeing as they were sorted into Gryffindor and Slytherin- typically rival houses.
Then there's the idea of popularity in Hogwarts, and from what JKR has said about Snape and Lily in school, Lily was a popular and well liked girl whereas Snape was at the other end of the spectrum- his only friends being the beginnings of the DE. The fact that Snape and Lily continued to put the effort in at all is surprising.
I suppose what you're saying is right- and that everything Snape and Lily were put through due to separation in the school would have made their friendship strained, so the whole 'mudblood' situation was probably something that ended their already faulty friendship for good. Perhaps Lily did forgive Snape for calling her a mudblood, but she also realised just how different her and Snape were, so I suppose she just gave up on ever making their friendship work permanently.

My opinion's kinda changed a lot, but I've realised a few things

I think Lily was justified in ending her friendship with Snape. I'm sure a few series of events led to Lily finally ending their friendship. She said she couldn't understand why he was hanging around with that crowd. My interpretation of that line is that she thinks Snape is not like that. She was just watching out for a friend. She cut off with a friend who eventually did become a deatheater, so his apology was futile. He was sorry for calling Lily a mudblood but that was beyond the point to her. I would have a tough time accepting a friend who believes in a cause that murders people of my kind/heritage...and it did eventually murder her.. :(

From the Snape thread

When Lily is criticised for the way she ended her friendship with Snape I wonder if Snape did make any more efforts to apologise to her after the SWM scene?

I don't think Snape went near her again. But I wonder if that surprised or shocked Lily, once she cooled off and realised that Snape was not going to approach her again (even though she may have known it must hurt him a lot to stay away). He was her best friend and when she told him off the night of the SWM, I speculate he accepted what she said and never went near her again. After Snape, canon is silent on any other close friend Lily may have had and I can't help wondering whether over the years she felt that she was too hasty in not forgiving Snape, when she knew he was neither DE (at that time) or Muggleborn hater, both things she accused Snape of being the night of the SWM IMO.

From the Snape thread



I don't think Snape went near her again. But I wonder if that surprised or shocked Lily, once she cooled off and realised that Snape was not going to approach her again (even though she may have known it must hurt him a lot to stay away). He was her best friend and when she told him off the night of the SWM, I speculate he accepted what she said and never went near her again. After Snape, canon is silent on any other close friend Lily may have had and I can't help wondering whether over the years she felt that she was too hasty in not forgiving Snape, when she knew he was neither DE (at that time) or Muggleborn hater, both things she accused Snape of being the night of the SWM IMO.

How would she have known these things about Snape? After all, he had insulted her with a racial slur and he had friends who were, like him, going to join the Death Eater. So in her view (and mine) they were facts. And she may have known that ending their friendship hurt him but I suppose that she was hurting, too. She'd just lost her best friend as well and it was Lily who had to make this hard decision because they had been two adolescents stuck in a childhood friendship who didn't recognise the person they were friends with anymore, in my view.

How would she have known these things about Snape? After all, he had insulted her with a racial slur and he had friends who were, like him, going to join the Death Eater. So in her view (and mine) they were facts. And she may have known that ending their friendship hurt him but I suppose that she was hurting, too. She'd just lost her best friend as well and it was Lily who had to make this hard decision because they had been two adolescents stuck in a childhood friendship who didn't recognise the person they were friends with anymore, in my view.

I think Lily would have surely known how hurt Snape would be with what she was going to do. I think it was quite clear Snape thought differently from her on the status of their friendship. Her words that night shocked Snape; her refusal to allow Snape to speak out his thoughts also meant in my opinion that she was not in the mood to listen to any apology Snape may have had to offer.

The main thing that I feel Lily did not know about Snape at the time was her assumption that he wanted to be a DE. The reason I feel so is that Snape's name never came up as a DE or that he most likely could have joined the DEs once he left School in the Order meetings. Sirius in GOF is actually quite sure that while Snape hung out with kids who went on to become DEs, Sirius never ever heard anything DEatersih about Snape. So, I think Lily never mentioned Snape as a possible DE to either the Marauders or the Order. I think those words spoken the night of the SWM by Lily were spoken in anger and hurt and her comment about Snape wanting to join Voldemort was also made in anger, either because she was angry that he would not stop hanging out with Slytherins she disapproved of or because she wanted to hurt him badly and she may have known that this would do the trick IMO. If Lily was serious about her opinion that Snape would indeed become a DE once he left School, I think she would have mentioned it. She does not shy away from doing tough things and I think deep inside she never believed that Snape would become a DE, which was why I think she kept silent about what she told Snape the night of the SWM.

I don't know if Lily ever regretted the decision of ending their friendship. That incident happened in their fifth year; they still had two years of Hogwarts ahead of them. If Lily had seen any change in Snape in that time, I can't think of any reason why she wouldn't have approached him and offered to renew the friendship. I don't think things like awkwardness or hesitance would have held her back from that; from what we see of Lily, she seems to be very brave and not at all afraid to speak her mind. So I believe what held her back from approaching Snape in those years, is that she still saw him (in whatever classes they may have shared with Slytherin, in the library, the grounds, etc.) hang around with the same set of friends she believed were going to join Voldemort, that perhaps he'd never stopped calling other people of her birth bad words, that he hadn't really tried to change what she'd disapproved of in him. Of course there's the possibility that she might not have seen enough of him in those years to judge correctly, but any change such as abandoning his DE friends, I think, wouldn't have been too difficult to notice.

I don't know if Lily would have approached Snape first. Though, how she would have reacted had Snape approached her (after a while) is anyone's guess. Of course this is all pretty much in the realm of speculation based on the absence of canon that Snape approached Lily or vice versa after the night of the SWM; I guess she may not have been averse to renewing the relationship had Snape come to her, after a while, though I accept there is equal chance she might have turned him away with words similar to the ones she spoke the night of the SWM IMO.

So I believe what held her back from approaching Snape in those years, is that she still saw him (in whatever classes they may have shared with Slytherin, in the library, the grounds, etc.) hang around with the same set of friends she believed were going to join Voldemort, that perhaps he'd never stopped calling other people of her birth bad words, that he hadn't really tried to change what she'd disapproved of in him..

Lily is a strong person who knew her own mind, and once she made her mind up, I don't think she changed it very easily. I think Lily made it clear to Snape that night that she was closing the door on their friendship. I think his reaction was to look at what he had left (Avery and Mulciber) and spend more time with them, rather than cut off all social contact, or look for new friends, since making friends seems to have been hard for him.

I'm sure it was very painful to both of them for the friendship to end. I think Lily had the right priorities, alas, Severus did not.

I think Lily would have surely known how hurt Snape would be with what she was going to do. I think it was quite clear Snape thought differently from her on the status of their friendship. Her words that night shocked Snape; her refusal to allow Snape to speak out his thoughts also meant in my opinion that she was not in the mood to listen to any apology Snape may have had to offer.

No, she probably wasn't. After all, she had been insulted with a racial slur by the very person who had assured her that her being Muggle-born made no difference. I think she'd believed him and, what's more, had wanted to believe him. In my view, Lily had turned a blind eye to Snape's pure-blood supremacist leaning because she wanted to believe this and because he had told her that it made no difference. And she had, in my view, tried to tell him many times that his DE-in-the-making friends were bad apples. After SWM she could no longer ignore that she had been the exception, that he truly believed that it made a difference, as I see it. And that's why she wasn't in the mood to listen to his apologies. I think Snape had many opportunities to disassociate himself from the friends Lily found suspicious and he had many opportunities to explain why he was sticking around them. Apparently - judging from the scenes we got - he didn't. And then it was, in my view, too little too late.

I get the impression that after that night in the corridor, Snape didnt go near Lily again and just pretty much stuck with his Slytherin friends. This would a pretty good indication that Snape hadnt changed and Lily was right in a way. He was still hanging out with that lot who really wanted to join Voldy. Why would she approach him again? I do think TGW has a point about Lily not knowing for certain Snape was a DE himself. So she wouldnt mention it in Order meetings or with the Marauders. She probably figured he was involved in some way but didnt have any proof and his name certainly never came up. I think if it had, she would have said something.

No, she probably wasn't. After all, she had been insulted with a racial slur by the very person who had assured her that her being Muggle-born made no difference. I think she'd believed him and, what's more, had wanted to believe him. In my view, Lily had turned a blind eye to Snape's pure-blood supremacist leaning because she wanted to believe this and because he had told her that it made no difference. And she had, in my view, tried to tell him many times that his DE-in-the-making friends were bad apples. After SWM she could no longer ignore that she had been the exception, that he truly believed that it made a difference, as I see it. And that's why she wasn't in the mood to listen to his apologies. I think Snape had many opportunities to disassociate himself from the friends Lily found suspicious and he had many opportunities to explain why he was sticking around them. Apparently - judging from the scenes we got - he didn't. And then it was, in my view, too little too late.

The problem for me with this is that if like Lily said Snape was indeed aspiring to become a DE once he finished School and he did think racist things about Muggleborns and he leaned towards Pureblood supremacy, that clashes with his actions born out of his love for Lily which inspired him to not just turn away from Voldemort but to fight against Voldemort on his home turf, against the greatest legilimens the world had ever known by successfully giving him misinformation to him for many years IMO.

That Snape loved Lily enough to turn away from Voldemort when even a hint of betrayal (of Voldemort) would result in death is canon IMO. That Snape came to Dumbledore even though he might have been killed or sent to Azkaban is also canon IMO. So, Lily, even after she married James and had Harry inspired love inside Snape. That love IMO would not have come after he knew Lily was targeted, but like Harry said was there almost all of his life. So I think Snape had that love inside him even the night of the SWM and indeed that morning as well.

If Lily's complaint and her break up with Snape was because he could not wait to join Voldemort or wait to kill those like her was true, then in the two years all Snape had to do was to tell her that he no longer wanted to join Voldemort or kill those like her and that he had also chosen his way, which was her way. That Snape came the night of the SWM to apologise for his terrible mistake shows to me that if Snape made a mistake or was wrong about anything, he was capable of and did apologise, even if that meant standing outside Gryffindor Tower for as long as it took. Hurting Lily as he did the morning of the SWM (even if he was in a terrible state himself) made Snape rush to tell her he was sorry as he did that night. So, if Lily's complaint was indeed true then Snape's path was easy IMO.

But I think Snape never came to Lily after the night of the SWM and he never stopped loving her, even when she started dating James and even when she went on to marry him. So, I can only conclude that the words Lily spoke to Snape that night were not true at that time, as far as Snape was concerned and because Lily never mentioned Snape as a potential DE who the Order should watch out for, I think the words spoken by Lily were words spoken in anger and hurt. I think Snape realised that the night of the SWM was not about the morning, but about breaking up with him once and for all and IMO that was why he never came near her again.

I believe both Snape and Lily shared something as deep or deeper than Harry and Hermione as friends and since Snape felt something more than friendship for her in his soul, he never stopped loving her. But Lily did not want him anymore, so he kept away from her IMO. Interestingly in POA, it is Harry who shuns Hermione for sometime for reporting to McGonagall about the broom, but Hermione never stops caring for Harry's wellbeing, because she loved him as her friend. But in this story Harry returned to Hermione. I think in a slightly different way that's what happened between Lily and Snape. Lily wanted out of the friendship, unlike Harry, forever, so Snape never went back to her again, even though he also never stopped caring for her IMO.

Lily wanted out of the friendship, unlike Harry, forever, so Snape never went back to her again, even though he also never stopped caring for her IMO.

I don't read it like this. To me, it seems from what Lily says to Snape in SWM that her biggest complaint is not that he called her a "Mudblood", it is that he routinely calls other muggleborns that. When he uses the word to her, it is the last straw, but it's the general principle that IMO she takes issue with.

That, to me, is why she will not accept his apology - he's apologising for accidentally calling her that word, but fails (at that stage, anyway) to comprehend that the issue is not him calling Lily a "mudblood": it is calling anybody a "mudblood".

I believe that if Snape had changed his behaviour after SWM and shown by actions, not words, that he had taken Lily's criticism on board, then Lily would have given him a second chance as a friend. The reason I believe that is because she gave James a second chance when he changed his behaviour and stopped hexing most people just because he could.

Whether she would ever have returned his love is a more moot point, but ultimately I don't think she can be faulted for that - you love who you love and IMO nobody, no matter how genuinely in love with another person, no matter how nice they are, has a right to have that love returned.

I don't read it like this. To me, it seems from what Lily says to Snape in SWM that her biggest complaint is not that he called her a "Mudblood", it is that he routinely calls other muggleborns that. When he uses the word to her, it is the last straw, but it's the general principle that IMO she takes issue with.

Even if this were the case, then assuming Snape was aware that Lily meant what she said, and why she was unable to forgive him this time, when he finally turned around and used that word to her (that is assuming that Snape went around calling all Muggleborns Mudblood, for years), in the two years Snape had, all he needed to do was to show Lily that her way had indeed become his way. Especially if she would accept him back if he changed. To Snape, Lily was far more important than anyone else. That he came to Dumbledore on the hill shows me that Lily and her well being was more important than Voldemort or even his own life. So, if that's all Lily was asking of him, I am quite Snape would have done that. But I think Snape at some point knew or suspected that it wasn't about the word he spoke that morning or his career choice which Lily thought was becoming a DE, some 2 years later.

It was about breaking off their relationship. Otherwise Snape's actions in my view is confusing, because it looks like Snape loved Lily for almost all his life, called her a Mudblood by mistake, rushed to apologise to her; listened to her accusation that he surely was going to become a DE and then walks away, does not do anything to win over her friendship at all; in fact goes on to become a DE ... and then, all of a sudden he is there on the hill crying to Dumbledore asking him to save them all, and agrees to do anything Dumbledore asks of him so that Lily and her family would be kept safe IMO. Which IMO either makes Snape's love or Lily's words that night false. Snape's love was not false according to canon, so I presume Lily's words were those spoken in anger and hurt IMO.

I think Snape was a very intelligent person. I think he was awkward and had no social skills to speak of, but I think even the day of the SWM, he loved Lily. So if it was about where he needed to rectify himself, I am quite sure he would have done so, because Lily was IMO that important to him. But canon in my view says he did not do so; he never approached her to ask her to become his friend again, telling her that he understood where he had gone wrong; he was no longer friends with Slytherins; he was no longer saying Mudblood or anything Lily felt he should not do.

Snape never does that. Instead he goes on to join the DEs; I can't believe he would not care about Lily when he could get her to become his friend again while in School, unless, he knew that Lily never wanted to be friends with him again. I think that would be the only thing that would have stopped Snape from contacting Lily again. That she did not want him to IMO.
Which makes me come to my conclusion that while yes, Lily was hurt about Snape's comment and she was angry with him; the night of the SWM was not about what happened in the morning, but about what Lily wanted from Snape. That in my opinion was to keep away from her from then on. I think Snape respected it from then on, even though he never stopped caring for her IMO.

I believe that if Snape had changed his behaviour after SWM and shown by actions, not words, that he had taken Lily's criticism on board, then Lily would have given him a second chance as a friend.

If Snape had an inkling that Lily would have taken him back as a friend, I think Snape would have moved heaven and earth to do so. Her memory inspired him to do impossible things later on, she accepting him as a friend would have made Snape change for her or leave her, in which case he would not have come to the hill to meet Dumbledore IMO.

The reason I believe that is because she gave James a second chance when he changed his behaviour and stopped hexing most people just because he could.

Answered in the James and Lily thread.

Whether she would ever have returned his love is a more moot point, but ultimately I don't think she can be faulted for that - you love who you love and IMO nobody, no matter how genuinely in love with another person, no matter how nice they are, has a right to have that love returned.

I meant as a friend only , not more. :)

So, I can only conclude that the words Lily spoke to Snape that night were not true at that time, as far as Snape was concerned and because Lily never mentioned Snape as a potential DE who the Order should watch out for, I think the words spoken by Lily were words spoken in anger and hurt.
Well, she didn't say Snape would become a Death Eater the next day, she said he would eventually become a Death Eater. And she was totally right in that regard; he joined Voldemort as she predicted he would, if he didn't abandon those friends, and if he didn't go back the way they were taking him. So I don't believe she was speaking out of anger and hurt; she truely believed that's how he'd turn out, and he did.

Lily wanted out of the friendship, unlike Harry, forever, so Snape never went back to her again, even though he also never stopped caring for her IMO.

I wouldn't say Lily wanted out of the friendship, myself, :shrug:. I think it puts her in a really bad light, when we know that she kept up her friendship with Snape, even though her friends couldn't understand why and probably even disapproved of the friendship, and even though he was hanging around with people who would've gladly killed her one day.

Lily didn't know what had happened after her death; she only saw Snape these days, she couldn't possibly have known that he loved her that much, when his actions these days contradicted that love so strongly. She saw him choose a way, she couldn't possibly follow. In my opinion, it's not the friendship she wanted to be out of, it's the way her friend had chosen that she wanted to keep away from.

Even if this were the case, then assuming Snape was aware that Lily meant what she said, and why she was unable to forgive him this time, when he finally turned around and used that word to her (that is assuming that Snape went around calling all Muggleborns Mudblood, for years), in the two years Snape had, all he needed to do was to show Lily that her way had indeed become his way. Especially if she would accept him back if he changed. To Snape, Lily was far more important than anyone else. That he came to Dumbledore on the hill shows me that Lily and her well being was more important than Voldemort or even his own life. So, if that's all Lily was asking of him, I am quite Snape would have done that. But I think Snape at some point knew or suspected that it wasn't about the word he spoke that morning or his career choice which Lily thought was becoming a DE, some 2 years later.

Lily was called a Mudblood by Severus. She said she perceived that Severus was calling other Muggleborn's at there school. She believed that Severus and his other friends were aspiring to become Death Eaters. She had tried to talk to him about how bothered she was by the Dark Arts his friends used, but he shrugged it off as fun, and would just change the subject. It seems that Severus kept hanging out with his gang, and did go on to become a Death Eater as Lily had feared. I do not see how Lily would conclude that Snape thought her more inportant than anyone else. I do not see that he considered her concerns in school, or her safety from people who thought she was a Mudblood, like Death Eaters and Voldemort. It seems to me that Lily perceived that he had become one of those people who considered her inferior, and was a member of a gang of aspiring Death Eaters. I really don't see anything in Severus's actions that shows that Lily was the most important thing to him, and I can't see how Lily would reach that conclusion from what Severus does to her.

It was about breaking off their relationship. Otherwise Snape's actions in my view is confusing, because it looks like Snape loved Lily for almost all his life, called her a Mudblood by mistake, rushed to apologise to her; listened to her accusation that he surely was going to become a DE and then walks away, does not do anything to win over her friendship at all; in fact goes on to become a DE ... and then, all of a sudden he is there on the hill crying to Dumbledore asking him to save them all, and agrees to do anything Dumbledore asks of him so that Lily and her family would be kept safe IMO. Which IMO either makes Snape's love or Lily's words that night false. Snape's love was not false according to canon, so I presume Lily's words were those spoken in anger and hurt IMO.

? I don't know if I follow your argument. Lily has her own set of feelings, in my opinion, and I think they include not enjoying be subjected to being called "Mudblood" or treated as an inferior, and not having the same applied to others of her birth status, and not supporting Voldemort or the Death Eaters. I agree that Snape's demonstration of his "love" for Lily is very confused, but since Lily is threatened at school specifically with "Mudblood" and more generally by being a Muggleborn at the time of the rise of Voldemrot and his followers, I think she will act by how much she feels threatened by Severus and his actions.


I think Snape was a very intelligent person. I think he was awkward and had no social skills to speak of, but I think even the day of the SWM, he loved Lily. So if it was about where he needed to rectify himself, I am quite sure he would have done so, because Lily was IMO that important to him. But canon in my view says he did not do so; he never approached her to ask her to become his friend again, telling her that he understood where he had gone wrong; he was no longer friends with Slytherins; he was no longer saying Mudblood or anything Lily felt he should not do.

Snape never does that. Instead he goes on to join the DEs; I can't believe he would not care about Lily when he could get her to become his friend again while in School, unless, he knew that Lily never wanted to be friends with him again.

Who knows what Snape was thinking? "I only care about Lily if I can have her so I'll join an organization that wants to kill Muggleborns and overthrow the gevernment" might have been what he was thinking, I don't know. But I don't see that Lily perceived him to care about her wellbeing or morals while they were friends, and I don't think that she would be impressed that if she didn't pay him by being friends with him then he wouldn't care about her wellbeing or morals either.

Well, she didn't say Snape would become a Death Eater the next day, she said he would eventually become a Death Eater.

I think she said that Snape could not wait to be a DE.

"You can't wait to join YKW, can you?" DH - TPT

If Snape was not thinking on those lines, I think he would have been incredibly hurt and deeply wounded by an accusation from a person who he thought knew him very well. He did say a very wrong word that morning, when he was utterly humiliated, but in return it would look to him that Lily was saying all this deliberately. That would tell him that she did not want him anymore, one reason IMO about why he stayed away.

And she was totally right in that regard; he joined Voldemort as she predicted he would, if he didn't abandon those friends, and if he didn't go back the way they were taking him. So I don't believe she was speaking out of anger and hurt; she truely believed that's how he'd turn out, and he did.

Ah, but just because Snape did become DE later, it did not justify Lily's words IMO. Canon is silent on when Snape actually made the decision to become part of the DEs, but I think one thing is certain in my view. It was not on that night or before the SWM that Snape made that decision. Because if he did and if Lily told him that she could never reconcile to having a friend who was part of a group that was actively hunting people like her, then that was Snape's cue to change, if he had indeed been thinking like that.

For, canon says Snape loved Lily and he loved her for almost all his life. She was more important to Snape than Voldemort, than his life, than his soul, than everything IMO. So, I believe that Snape did not think DE thoughts or think of hunting Muggleborns the night of the SWM and I think there was a reason why he never approached Lily again and that was not because he wanted to become DE only to promptly turn back when she was targeted (for that would not be true love which canon says Snape had for Lily), but because that night he understood that Lily did not want him anymore, not as a friend and not as anything IMO.

I wouldn't say Lily wanted out of the friendship, myself, :shrug:. I think it puts her in a really bad light, when we know that she kept up her friendship with Snape, even though her friends couldn't understand why and probably even disapproved of the friendship, and even though he was hanging around with people who would've gladly killed her one day.

I don't think this is about whether something puts her in good light or a bad light myself. I think it is about whether the words she spoke were in anger or did her words have any truth in them.

I lean towards her words that night spoken in anger and hurt and also a real desire to end her friendship with Snape for some reason. I think that's what Snape went away with and that's why he did not return.

? I don't know if I follow your argument. Lily has her own set of feelings, in my opinion, and I think they include not enjoying be subjected to being called "Mudblood" or treated as an inferior, and not having the same applied to others of her birth status, and not supporting Voldemort or the Death Eaters.

While I agree that Lily has her own feelings and that they did not include being called Mudblood, I disagree that she and other Muggleborns were being treated as an inferior by Snape. I don't see any canon for this, for Lily herself does not say anything in the previous memory when she is disapproving of Avery and Mulciber. There is not one word about either Snape joining them or about Snape calling other Muggleborns any racist name. This accusation springs up, much like the other accusation of Snape wanting to be a DE, only once and that is at the time of the break up. Which leads me to believe that what happened that night was that their friendship broke irreparably and it was initiated by Lily. While I think and would agree she had all the right in the world not to continue with a friendship she did not want, I'd also add that that does not make all her words the whole truth just because Snape loved her or because she was Harry's mother or because she fought for the Order IMO.

Who knows what Snape was thinking?

Exactly. At that point who knew what Snape was thinking or planning to do. We have only Lily's words of what she thought Snape planned or wanted. That may or may not be the truth. I think it was not, because Snape loved her enough to walk away from Voldemort, yet if Lily's words are to be taken as true, then Snape did not love Lily or care for her enough until much later, after she married James and had Harry, which IMO contradicts canon.

Lily didn't know what had happened after her death; she only saw Snape these days, she couldn't possibly have known that he loved her that much, when his actions these days contradicted that love so strongly. She saw him choose a way, she couldn't possibly follow. In my opinion, it's not the friendship she wanted to be out of, it's the way her friend had chosen that she wanted to keep away from.

I agree, Lily could not be a part of the path Snape was on. I think she came to the realisation that you can't change someone who doesn't want to change. I think she also recognised the dangerous fallacy that "everything is fine if we're friends, it doesn't matter how much someone hurts you". I think she recognised the difference between friend and doormat.


I really don't see anything in Severus's actions that shows that Lily was the most important thing to him, and I can't see how Lily would reach that conclusion from what Severus does to her.

I agree. People don't hang out with those who want to murder those who matter most to them. People don't befriend those won consider their loved ones to be subhuman. I think Lily would have had to be stretching the bounds of rationality to imagine that "Mudblood" and Snape's friendship with budding DEs somehow translated to "I love you".

since Lily is threatened at school specifically with "Mudblood" and more generally by being a Muggleborn at the time of the rise of Voldemrot and his followers, I think she will act by how much she feels threatened by Severus and his actions.

I agree. Lily knew that the DEs were dangerous - Voldemort was already "You-Know-Who" by that point. I very much doubt that Snape was the first person to call her a "mudblood". She knew what that word meant, and she knew what people who used that word were doing to people like her. I think she knew that she could not trust someone who considered her a "mudblood". IMO, Lily felt that for the sake of her safety and self-respect, she could have nothing to do with someone with those prejudices. I also think that it was not solely that SWM incident that ended the friendship. I consider it the straw that broke the camel's back, it was a wake-up call to Lily as to what Snape was becoming. It showed her that she could no longer turn a blind eye, or lie to herself.


But I don't see that Lily perceived him to care about her wellbeing or morals while they were friends, and I don't think that she would be impressed that if she didn't pay him by being friends with him then he wouldn't care about her wellbeing or morals either.

I agree. I think there's something dangerous in holding Lily in any way responsible for Snape's decision to become a DE. "I won't join the most evil group in our world if I can have the one I want". If having a particular person is one's only reason not to do something that destroys lives, I fnid that disturbing. The actions of the DEs in themselves should be more than enough reason not to join.


Because if he did and if Lily told him that she could never reconcile to having a friend who was part of a group that was actively hunting people like her, then that was Snape's cue to change, if he had indeed been thinking like that.

Should a person need to be told "I can't be friends with you if you're trying to murder people like me"? I would have thought that was a pretty basic expectation from a friend. Lily knew that Snape was also friends with dangerous people - people she considered evil. She said she didn't know why he spent time with them - which suggests she did, at that time, think that he was better than them. She didn't want people like Mulciber and Avery to drag Snape down with them.

However, when he called her a "filthy little Mudblood", I think she realised that there was a difference between being a friend and being a doormat. Lily was not going to have anything to do with a DE, and she made that clear. It was Snape's decision not to change.



I don't think this is about whether something puts her in good light or a bad light myself. I think it is about whether the words she spoke were in anger or did her words have any truth in them.


I believe Lily was hurt and angry that night. Her so-called friend had just told her she was scum. It would be strange if she was not hurt and angry, IMO. However, I do not see why Lily's words ought to be dismissed as untrue. Snape was hanging around with people who went on to do terrible things, just as he did. He and his friends went on to do these things as part of a genocidal group who persecuted Muggleborns.

While I agree that Lily has her own feelings and that they did not include being called Mudblood, I disagree that she and other Muggleborns were being treated as an inferior by Snape. I don't see any canon for this, for Lily herself does not say anything in the previous memory when she is disapproving of Avery and Mulciber. There is not one word about either Snape joining them or about Snape calling other Muggleborns any racist name. This accusation springs up, much like the other accusation of Snape wanting to be a DE, only once and that is at the time of the break up.

Calling someone a "mudblood" is treating them as an inferior. The word means that the person is considered inferior, scum, unworthy. There is no good meaning attached to that word. I see no reason for it to be a lie that Snape was calling other people "mudblood".

I think Lily had been kidding herself up until that point. I think she had been lying to herself about what Snape was becoming. She tried to convince herself that his friends were a bad influence, but that he wasn't like them. Being called scum by her "friend" opened Lily's eyes, and she was no longer in denial, IMO.


Exactly. At that point who knew what Snape was thinking or planning to do. We have only Lily's words of what she thought Snape planned or wanted. That may or may not be the truth.

Snape was hanging out with bigots, with people who considered people like Lily unworthy and scum. That was not a good indication. Not when the Death Eaters were murdering Muggleborns and anyone who dared to oppose their evil acts. IMO, Lily saw that his friends were trouble, and she tried to advise him against them. Snape was not interested in her concerns, and Lily refused to be his exception, she refused to have anything to do with a wannabe Death Eater.



I think it was not, because Snape loved her enough to walk away from Voldemort, yet if Lily's words are to be taken as true, then Snape did not love Lily or care for her enough until much later, after she married James and had Harry, which IMO contradicts canon.

Snape loved Lily, yes. However, it is also canon fact that he joined the most evil wizard in history, and an evil group that were murdering people like Lily. IMO, Snape's love for Lily does not mean that he always did the right thing where she was concerned, or that he always treated her properly. Joining a group of evil murderers who were persecuting Muggleborns was not doing the right thing by Lily. While Snape and Lily were still friends, hanging around with people who considered Muggleborns to be scum was a betrayal of their friendship, as was calling anybody "Mudblood".

IMO, Lily refused to be an exception. She refused to be told that she deserved to live and other "filthy little Mudbloods" did not, simply because that was what Severus Snape thought.

I would have thought that was a pretty basic expectation from a friend.

I agree, but only if there was enough to suggest that this basic expectation was being ignored or kept aside. In canon I don't think there isn't anything from Lily except this one time to suggest that this was an issue. Lily herself does not bring it up in the previous memory when she talks at length about Avery and Mulciber IMO. That's what makes me think that her words the night of the SWM were to break off a friendship.

Lily knew that Snape was also friends with dangerous people - people she considered evil. She said she didn't know why he spent time with them - which suggests she did, at that time, think that he was better than them. She didn't want people like Mulciber and Avery to drag Snape down with them.

I agree she did not want Snape to be dragged down by Avery and Mulciber. But I would have thought the way to stop that would not be to accuse Snape of wanting to be like them, to tell him that she thought his desire was to kill people like her and to tell him that she knew he could not wait to join Voldemort who was into all these things IMO.

Lily was not going to have anything to do with a DE, and she made that clear. It was Snape's decision not to change.

I agree, if it was Snape's decision/intention at the time to become a DE and hunt down all Muggleborns except Lily, then what Lily says would be right. But I'm afraid there's nothing in canon to suggest that Snape was thinking like that at that time, he continued thinking like that until Lily was targeted and then, suddenly his love burst out and he came running to Dumbledore. I think Snape loved Lily from the time he met her and he stayed away from her because she did not want him with her. At the time of their break up, I don't think Snape was thinking DE thoughts or anti Muggleborn thoughts. As I wrote before, I think those kinds of thoughts at that time clashes with the affection Snape harboured for Lily all through and to suggest that he placed something more important on his plate over Lily is something that to me canon does not suggest. And yet for two years Snape kept away (while they were in School). Which leads me to think that Snape kept away because Lily did not want him more than the fact he thought something was more important than her.

However, it is also canon fact that he joined the most evil wizard in history, and an evil group that were murdering people like Lily.

Was he thinking of joining them in his fifth year? From what I understand of canon, I don't think he did.

I agree, but only if there was enough to suggest that this basic expectation was being ignored or kept aside. In canon I don't think there isn't anything from Lily except this one time to suggest that this was an issue. Lily herself does not bring it up in the previous memory when she talks at length about Avery and Mulciber IMO. That's what makes me think that her words the night of the SWM were to break off a friendship.

Snape called Lily a "filthy little Mudblood" - it's made clear several times in the text exactly how bad that word is - it is the equivalent of the very worst racial slurs. Snape was hanging out with people who considered Muggleborns to be scum, and who used Dark Magic. From that, I think it's clear why Lily felt that Snape was hanging around with people who wanted to become Death Eaters. How many memories of Lily warning Snape about his "evil" friends would be needed to suggest that they were wannabe Death Eaters?


I agree she did not want Snape to be dragged down by Avery and Mulciber. But I would have thought the way to stop that would not be to accuse Snape of wanting to be like them, to tell him that she thought his desire was to kill people like her and to tell him that she knew he could not wait to join Voldemort who was into all these things IMO.

I don't see what else Lily was supposed to believe. Her so-called friend had thrown the worst racial slur in the wizarding world at her - he had just told her she was scum, and subhuman. What conclusions should she draw from that, given that there were dangerous people murdering Muggleborns at that time? What conclusions should she draw from Snape's friends using Dark Magic, and Snape shrugging it off as a "laugh"?


Before SWM, Lily told Snape that she considered his friends evil. She asked him why he spent time with them - which strongly suggests that she felt he wasn't like them, and that they were a bad influence on him. Lily tried to advise Snape that they were trouble. Snape did not want to hear Lily's concerns. I think Lily got a wake-up call when Snape called her a "filthy little Mudblood". I think she realised that friendship does not mean that it's okay when someone hurts you, because they care about you. Sometimes, a person needs to draw a line, and refuse to be a doormat, and refuse to kid themselves that everything is fine. IMO, that is the conclusion Lily came to, and I feel that it took a lot of strength to realise that.


As I wrote before, I think those kinds of thoughts at that time clashes with the affection Snape harboured for Lily all through and to suggest that he placed something more important on his plate over Lily is something that to me canon does not suggest.

Snape's love for Lily clashes with becoming a Death Eater, at all. These criminals were oppressing and murdering Muggleborns, and yet, Snape joined them. At whatever point Snape joined, or developed an interest in the DEs, it is a clash with his love for Lily.

Was he thinking of joining them in his fifth year? From what I understand of canon, I don't think he did.

If that were the case, it would be an incredible coincidence that Lily suspected Snape and his friends wanted to become Death Eaters, and lo and behold, Snape and his friends became branded Death Eaters.

Snape called Lily a "filthy little Mudblood" - it's made clear several times in the text exactly how bad that word is - it is the equivalent of the very worst racial slurs. Snape was hanging out with people who considered Muggleborns to be scum, and who used Dark Magic. From that, I think it's clear why Lily felt that Snape was hanging around with people who wanted to become Death Eaters. How many memories of Lily warning Snape about his "evil" friends would be needed to suggest that they were wannabe Death Eaters?

I view Snape's interactions with Lily as indicative that Lily was some sort of exception to the prejudice against Muggleborns because she had "loads of magic." She had better control over her magic than we see with most underage witches and wizards, and when you consider the fact that she didn't even know what she was, this is actually quite amazing. She seems to be every bit as capable of channelling her talent as the little pureblood witches and wizard that Harry sees at the Quidditch World Cup, flying on toy brooms and using daddy's wand to engorgio a slug. One might expect that a nine- or ten-year-old witch whose parents were Muggles would be having weird, unexplainable accidents, like the ones that bothered the Dursleys so much when Harry's magic would leak out. Instead, Lily is doing her own advanced magic: flying without a broom looks like an activity that very few magical people are capable of. At least, we only ever see two others doing it: Severus and Voldemort himself. I don't know if Lily ever realized how unusual this was, but it seems to be part of what made her special to Severus. I have no trouble at all seeing why Severus placed Lily on a pedastal, even though his housemates would still consider her as worthless on account of being Muggleborn.

I don't see what else Lily was supposed to believe. Her so-called friend had thrown the worst racial slur in the wizarding world at her - he had just told her she was scum, and subhuman. What conclusions should she draw from that, given that there were dangerous people murdering Muggleborns at that time? What conclusions should she draw from Snape's friends using Dark Magic, and Snape shrugging it off as a "laugh"?

I see a possibility that Snape might have argued with other Slytherins about Lily before this moment. I can imagine him in the Slytherin Common Room, being asked by the extremely racist purebloods why he hangs out with "that mudblood Evans," making this point: Lily is more talented than many purebloods, therefore her blood status should be overlooked. She's an exception.
However, there is no way for Lily to know that. She would not have been privy to any conversations Snape may or may not have had about her in the Slytherin Common Room. And the time or two we are shown where she tries to bring it up--why Severus hangs out with kids who are "creepy," to use her words, and "nearly all grew up to be Death Eaters," in the words of Sirius--all Severus seems to have to say is that he thinks what his friends do is just a laugh, and that they aren't the worst bullies in Hogwarts.

Before SWM, Lily told Snape that she considered his friends evil. She asked him why he spent time with them - which strongly suggests that she felt he wasn't like them, and that they were a bad influence on him. Lily tried to advise Snape that they were trouble. Snape did not want to hear Lily's concerns. I think Lily got a wake-up call when Snape called her a "filthy little Mudblood". I think she realised that friendship does not mean that it's okay when someone hurts you, because they care about you. Sometimes, a person needs to draw a line, and refuse to be a doormat, and refuse to kid themselves that everything is fine. IMO, that is the conclusion Lily came to, and I feel that it took a lot of strength to realise that.

I think that Lily might have had an inkling, even before she ever went to Hogwarts, that her parentage might be an issue. I don't know of anything she might have had to base this belief on other than Severus' apparent disdain for her sister, Petunia, who was in Snape's words "only a Muggle." Thus her question, as to whether it mattered that she was Muggleborn. I've always interpreted that hesitation of Snape's when he says it doesn't matter, that it actually did matter, even to him, but he didn't want her to know that.
Of course, once they got to Hogwarts, and he got Sorted into Slytherin House (where prejudice is actually one of the founder's qualifying traits, based on the words "I'll teach only those whose blood is purest"), Severus could no longer fully shield her from that view. And a few years later, it looks to Lily like he has bought into that view IMO. She believes that Severus calls other Muggleborns besides her "mudbloods." So in Lily's eyes, her friend Severus looks like he has become a wholehearted anti-Muggleborn racist. But because she has "loads of magic," Lily is still, somehow, always his exception.


Snape's love for Lily clashes with becoming a Death Eater, at all. These criminals were oppressing and murdering Muggleborns, and yet, Snape joined them. At whatever point Snape joined, or developed an interest in the DEs, it is a clash with his love for Lily.

I think, because we have Lily's words that Severus and his friends couldn't wait to join up with You-Know-Who, that at the very least she believed that her friend's views on Muggles and Muggleborns had been brought around into alignment with those of Lord Voldemort and the Death Eaters. We know from what Arthur Weasley told Harry about the Dark Mark that families were being targeted for murder by the group Lily thought Severus wanted to join. And because he utters not a single syllable of denial when she says this to him, and because four years later he did have a DE tattoo on his arm and was sent by Voldemort to spy on Albus Dumbledore, I see no reason to believe that Lily was wrong about Severus' ambitions. It wasn't a lucky guess, or a baseless accusation, or a self-fulfilling prophecy, to my way of thinking. I see it as an educated prediction of the end result of the path she saw her friend was on, and had tried to turn him away from. And the way I read the text, all her attempts to persuade him that his friends and his fascination with the Dark Arts were a bad influence and would lead to no good, fell on deaf ears.

If that were the case, it would be an incredible coincidence that Lily suspected Snape and his friends wanted to become Death Eaters, and lo and behold, Snape and his friends became branded Death Eaters.

At least we have an indication, from the Prince's Tale, that Severus remembered Lily's pleas, and realized that Lily might very well have been spot on about the teenagers that he hung out with to her dismay.

I think that Lily might have had an inkling, even before she ever went to Hogwarts, that her parentage might be an issue. I don't know of anything she might have had to base this belief on other than Severus' apparent disdain for her sister, Petunia, who was in Snape's words "only a Muggle." Thus her question, as to whether it mattered that she was Muggleborn. I've always interpreted that hesitation of Snape's when he says it doesn't matter, that it actually did matter, even to him, but he didn't want her to know that.
Of course, once they got to Hogwarts, and he got Sorted into Slytherin House (where prejudice is actually one of the founder's qualifying traits, based on the words "I'll teach only those whose blood is
purest"), Severus could no longer fully shield her from that view. And a few years later, it looks to Lily like he has bought into that view IMO. She believes that Severus calls other Muggleborns besides her "mudbloods." So in Lily's eyes, her friend Severus looks like he has become a wholehearted anti-Muggleborn racist. But because she has "loads of magic," Lily is still, somehow, always his exception.

I think that is an interesting point. It does seem to me that Lily had an early fear that her status as a Muggleborn might make wizards find her unacceptable, and that young Severus's attitude towards Muggles might have planted that seed of doubt. Once Lily entered Hogwarts, I wonder if she was shocked at how extreme some of the views that wizards expressed towards Muggles and the Muggleborn were. I remember that Sirius mentioned that one of his aunts had introduced legislation to make Muggle hunting legal. I think it would be a shock to learn that that sort of extreme view existed, and could threaten her Muggle family. And then her entrance into Hogwarts coincided with Voldemort's first rise to power, where violence and oppression against Muggleborns and Muggles were brought to the forefront of the Wizarding World. I think her being Muggleborn was a far bigger issue and had far bigger impact than she could have imagined as a child. Fortunately, I think she also found many people who did not buy into the bigotry or Voldemort, and many who were ready to stand up for what they believed in. She was able to join the Order with many like-minded people, in my opinion.

I think that Lily might have had an inkling, even before she ever went to Hogwarts, that her parentage might be an issue. I don't know of anything she might have had to base this belief on other than Severus' apparent disdain for her sister, Petunia, who was in Snape's words "only a Muggle." Thus her question, as to whether it mattered that she was Muggleborn. I've always interpreted that hesitation of Snape's when he says it doesn't matter, that it actually did matter, even to him, but he didn't want her to know that.

That's a good point - Lily was concerned that her parentage might be an issue. I don't think she expected it to be anywhere nearly as big an issue as it was, but she was worried that it would matter.

I think it would be a shock to learn that that sort of extreme view existed, and could threaten her Muggle family. And then her entrance into Hogwarts coincided with Voldemort's first rise to power, where violence and oppression against Muggleborns and Muggles were brought to the forefront of the Wizarding World. I think her being Muggleborn was a far bigger issue and had far bigger impact than she could have imagined as a child.

I agree. I imagine it would have been very hurtful for Lily to learn that there were people in the magical world who considered her subhuman. Just as Petunia said there was something wrong with her for being magical, some people in the wizarding world though there was something wrong with her because of her parentage. And not just that there was something wrong with her, but that she should be removed from the magical world, and from the face of the earth.

As the first was war beginning around the time of Lily's first year in Hogwarts, it's likely that the bigots would have been more vocal - they would have been hoping for Lord Voldemort to change the wizarding world and oppress and dispose of people like Lily. How long before she was called a "Mudblood"? How long before she learned of the war? How long before her friends told her what was going on or showed her the Daily Prophet with accounts of horrific crimes? How long before her friends or housemates were personally affected, losing loved ones to the DEs? There's no way of knowing, but I doubt it took too long, going by the two facts that the war lasted eleven years, and Lily was murdered at the age of twenty-one.

I imagine it would have hurt her greatly to know that there were people who would kill her for daring to become a part of their world. For an eleven year old to know something like that must have been very painful, and a lot to come to terms with.

Fortunately, I think she also found many people who did not buy into the bigotry or Voldemort, and many who were ready to stand up for what they believed in. She was able to join the Order with many like-minded people, in my opinion.


I think she did, too. Lily stood up for what she believed in, and she was not alone in doing so. I'm inclined to think that she was chosen as Head-Girl as a role-model to younger students - saying that it is right to stand up and be counted against something evil, rather than keep your head down and pretend that everything was fine. It may also have been about a vote of confidence in Muggleborns, but there were other Muggleborns in Lily's year, and she was chosen - IMO, because she was openly against the DEs.

In the Order, Lily had James, Sirius and Remus. She had others, too - she seems to have been close to the McKinnons - in her letter to Sirius, she mentions crying all night on hearing of Marlene's murder.

I don't think Snape ever really hated Muggleborns. I mean, his self-proclaimed nickname was the Half-Blood Prince. He didn't give a **** about Purebloods.

So why then did he hang out with Death Eaters who did? ....because that's what Slytherin House is. If Snape wanted friends in his House, he would have to get along with this crowd. It's called peer pressure.

Such feeble beliefs crumble easily before the reality of love. I'm sure Mr. malfoy would employ the help of a Muggle if it meant saving his son for instance.

The mere fact Snape did not even slightly hesitate to turn on Voldemort and his old friends to help protect Lily is proof enough that he values her above everything else. That includes his lipserviee Pureblood Mania.

You can talk about Snape in his thread: Severus Snape: Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=128510&page=40)

This thread is for discussion of Lily.

Well FurryDice and a few others were talking about Snape and what Lily meant to him. I just responded to that.

But alright. Sorry about that then.

I don't think Snape ever really hated Muggleborns. I mean, his self-proclaimed nickname was the Half-Blood Prince. He didn't give a **** about Purebloods.

So why then did he hang out with Death Eaters who did? ....because that's what Slytherin House is. If Snape wanted friends in his House, he would have to get along with this crowd. It's called peer pressure.

Such feeble beliefs crumble easily before the reality of love. I'm sure Mr. malfoy would employ the help of a Muggle if it meant saving his son for instance.

The mere fact Snape did not even slightly hesitate to turn on Voldemort and his old friends to help protect Lily is proof enough that he values her above everything else. That includes his lipserviee Pureblood Mania.

You can talk about Snape in his thread: Severus Snape: Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=128510&page=40)

This thread is for discussion of Lily.

Well FurryDice and a few others were talking about Snape and what Lily meant to him. I just responded to that.

But alright. Sorry about that then.

In order to explore the other side of this coin without going off-topic, I will respond in the Snape thread as per Susan Bones' suggestion. :)

I haven't been on here in awhile... Starting school back up has been dreadful. :scared:

But anyway, I think that Lily sometimes gets hate from different readers because of the fact that she 'left' Snape. I personally find her to be an admirable character. I think that Lily cutting off her friendship with Snape shows she had a decent amount of self respect and that, as FurryDice and others have pointed out, she wouldn't allow herself to be the exception. As a young woman myself, I look up to Lily in that regard. I know I wouldn't allow myself to treated as an exception after my supposed best friend called me a derogatory name. Lily took the initiative and must have cared a lot for Snape to point out to him on several occasions that the people he hung around were no up to no good, which I've always inferred to mean that Lily thought so good of Snape that she thought he could do better than the likes of Mulciber and Avery. Some may think that Lily ended her friendship with Snape out of the blue. I don't see it as such. IMO, it was years of Lily making excuses for Snape and her being under the delusion that he would listen and that he could change that strained their relationship. I just think the 'mudblood' incident was the straw that broke the camel's back, as it were. I've always respected Lily, from her decision to not allow herself to be Snape's exception to her sacrificing her life for Harry. JMO.

I haven't been on here in awhile... Starting school back up has been dreadful. :scared:

But anyway, I think that Lily sometimes gets hate from different readers because of the fact that she 'left' Snape.

I kind of think that might be the case. Lily's refusal to accept Snape's apology seems to have hurt him very badly, and when a reader sympathises closely with a character it's easy to lash out at the apparent cause of any hurt to that character.

I personally find her to be an admirable character.

I admire her greatly, too. The ability to love is thematic in the whole series, and Lily shows great capacity for love throughout. And not just one kind of love, or love for only one person. She's upset that her sister doesn't accept her magical ability, I think because she loves her sister and wants to be close to her. She loves Severus as a best friend, so much so that she seems to remain in denial regarding the kind of person he's becoming as a Slytherin. Her friends--I wonder if it's maybe her Muggleborn friends-- don't understand why she's friends with him, I think maybe because they knew he looked down on them and wondered why she didn't see it. She seems to be very empathetic towards her friends in other ways, such as her concern for Mary MacDonald, and I think she might have been fond of a few Professors at Hogwarts. Slughorn at least speaks of her with affection years later, and is willing to give up his embarassing memory in honor of Lily. She loved her husband and loved his friends Sirius and Remus by extension, enough to send Sirius the sweet letter Harry finds in Sirius' room. And, of course, she loved Harry so much--her love for Harry is the keystone in the foundation of the book IMO. The sacrificial love that caused the AK to bounce off baby Harry and leave only a scar; that's powerful love, right there.

I think that Lily cutting off her friendship with Snape shows she had a decent amount of self respect and that, as FurryDice and others have pointed out, she wouldn't allow herself to be the exception.

That's exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you for summing it up so nicely. If Lily had accepted Severus' apology right there, IMO she would have been showing him that it was all right with her to be considered inferior for her blood status. At the very least, she would have been saying that it was okay for him to call the rest of the Muggleborns "mudbloods" as long as he kept his admiration for her. It would have been a very dangerous position for her to occupy, in my opinion: her worth would have been reduced to only the value that Severus Snape placed upon her, instead of having worth as an exceptional person in her own right, regardless of her blood status.

As a young woman myself, I look up to Lily in that regard.
I look up to Lily though I'm about twice the age she was when she died! I wish I'd had her strength of character when I was 17.

I know I wouldn't allow myself to treated as an exception after my supposed best friend called me a derogatory name.

And there's the rub for me personally: accepting the way your "friends" treat you because you're desperate for friendship, even though they consider you inferior for some reason. Whether he admitted it to himself or not, I believe that Lily realised in that moment that Snape may have considered himself superior to Lily. Whether because he was halfblood and she was Muggleborn, or because he was male and she female, I don't know. But I see in little hints like "You'd better be in Slytherin" and "You can't-- I won't let you--" that Lily might have thought that Snape felt like he had the right to control her to a certain extent, and I think that is also a part of what Lily had decided she wasn't willing to put up with from her "best friend" anymore.

Lily took the initiative and must have cared a lot for Snape to point out to him on several occasions that the people he hung around were no up to no good, which I've always inferred to mean that Lily thought so good of Snape that she thought he could do better than the likes of Mulciber and Avery. Some may think that Lily ended her friendship with Snape out of the blue.

Exactly; I think Lily had been telling herself, maybe since September 2nd of her first year, that Severus was better than the Slytherins who betrayed their blood prejudice and was probably increasingly discouraged by his befriending them and acting more and more like them every year. I think she might have tried several times to ask him why he had friends like that, but the acceptance of his Housemates seems to have been more important to him than the distress Lily was feeling. True friendship is not turning a blind eye to the bad choices your friend is making; it's confronting them with tough love when you believe they're going down the path to destruction.

I don't see it as such. IMO, it was years of Lily making excuses for Snape and her being under the delusion that he would listen and that he could change that strained their relationship. I just think the 'mudblood' incident was the straw that broke the camel's back, as it were.

Lily had tried before to explain to Severus that practising Dark Magic and hanging out with teens who admired "You-Know-Who" was not okay with her. I wonder if, in the context of making excuses for him to her friends, it was Severus calling them mudbloods out of her hearing that was the behaviour Lily kept excusing. To me, that would explain the line "you call everyone of my birth that... why should I be any different?" Perhaps, in the Gryffindor girls' dorm, other Muggleborn girls had told Lily that her friend Severus had called them "mudblood," and asked her why she was friends with a Slytherin racist. Perhaps she denied that he used that word at all; perhaps she said something along the lines of "He doesn't really hate Muggleborns, he just has to talk that way or the other Slytherins will hex his ears off." We don't have enough in the text to be sure, but we do have it on page that she was making excuses for him and that Lily had come to believe that Severus had called other Muggleborns that foul name before he lashed out at her directly and personally. I don't think she made that up just to have more ammo to break off their friendship. I think she'd been struggling to hold on to a relationship that was doomed, and finally realized it was unsustainable. A Muggleborn can't be friends with a Death Eater. And "Death Eater" is what Severus was aspiring to become.

I've always respected Lily, from her decision to not allow herself to be Snape's exception to her sacrificing her life for Harry. JMO.

:agree:

I also admire her character. She's often considered a 'bad friend' and 'heartbreaker' but she was neither. She was a good and honest friend to Severus. And she was free to date whoever she wanted after ending his friendship with Snape for over a year.

I don't think she made that up just to have more ammo to break off their friendship. I think she'd been struggling to hold on to a relationship that was doomed, and finally realized it was unsustainable.

:agree: Yes, thank you for putting that so eloquently. I, unlike other people probably, don't think it was Lily who really broke off her and Snape's friendship. Like you say, I think she was the one trying to keep it together, making excuses for Snape, while he refused to listen her qualms as any true friend should have done. I think that though Lily effectively terminated the relationship, it was really Snape's own doing. From the little we are seen in canon, we see Snape brushing off Lily's concerns, which a friend can only take for so long (in fact, I'm surprised she did take it for so long), and then doing the supreme act of referring to Lily as inferior to himself. What that shows me, IMO, is that it looks more like Snape, albeit unintentionally, pushed Lily to end their friendship.

I also admire her character. She's often considered a 'bad friend' and 'heartbreaker' but she was neither. She was a good and honest friend to Severus. And she was free to date whoever she wanted after ending his friendship with Snape for over a year.

Oh this a million times, I do not understand how people hate on her and blame her for Snape joining the DE!

Some may think that Lily ended her friendship with Snape out of the blue. I don't see it as such. IMO, it was years of Lily making excuses for Snape and her being under the delusion that he would listen and that he could change that strained their relationship. I just think the 'mudblood' incident was the straw that broke the camel's back, as it were. I've always respected Lily, from her decision to not allow herself to be Snape's exception to her sacrificing her life for Harry. JMO.

I agree with you that the end did not come out of the blue. It had been building up for a long time. I think it took a sharp wake-up call for Lily to realise the direction Snape was heading, and the direction her life could head if she just meekly accepted it.



She loved her husband and loved his friends Sirius and Remus by extension, enough to send Sirius the sweet letter Harry finds in Sirius' room. And, of course, she loved Harry so much--her love for Harry is the keystone in the foundation of the book IMO. The sacrificial love that caused the AK to bounce off baby Harry and leave only a scar; that's powerful love, right there.

Just to add to that, Lily mentions crying all evening when she heard of Marlene McKinnon's murder. Another person she loved and cared for as a friend. Until Pottermore gives some information on the Order, we don't know whether they were friends since school, or if they met through the Order. I imagine it was hard for her to be unable to meet with the other Order members at the time, to share her sorrow with them. She had James and Harry, but I think it would have helped to be able to meet with others. I think the confinement of being in hiding would have been difficult, especially when she couldn't be with the rest of the Order, having lost more of their number.


It would have been a very dangerous position for her to occupy, in my opinion: her worth would have been reduced to only the value that Severus Snape placed upon her, instead of having worth as an exceptional person in her own right, regardless of her blood status.

Yeah, Lily would only have been safe while Snape felt she deserved to be safe. Lily seemed to feel that nobody had any right to tell her that her right to live and be a witch depended on what he thought of her. It would have been a dangerous and demeaning position to place herself in.

And there's the rub for me personally: accepting the way your "friends" treat you because you're desperate for friendship, even though they consider you inferior for some reason. Whether he admitted it to himself or not, I believe that Lily realised in that moment that Snape may have considered himself superior to Lily.

I think there's no other conclusion Lily could have drawn from "filthy little Mudblood". There are no positive connotations to that word. It does not somehow secretly mean "I care about you and respect you", under any circumstances. It means that the person on the receiving end is considered dirt, inferior and unworthy. During Lily's school years, with the war, it meant that the person was a target for racist murderers.

True friendship is not turning a blind eye to the bad choices your friend is making; it's confronting them with tough love when you believe they're going down the path to destruction.

I agree. A friend may not like it when you disagree with them, but friend does not equal mindless sycophant. If you care about someone, you will warn them when they're headed for trouble. If Lily was a Muggle, and her Muggle friend were hanging around with drug dealers, or carjackers, then she would warn him against them. Not encourage him in his new venture.



Lily had tried before to explain to Severus that practising Dark Magic and hanging out with teens who admired "You-Know-Who" was not okay with her. I wonder if, in the context of making excuses for him to her friends, it was Severus calling them mudbloods out of her hearing that was the behaviour Lily kept excusing. To me, that would explain the line "you call everyone of my birth that... why should I be any different?"

Perhaps it was, or perhaps it was his friendships with budding DEs that she kept making excuses for. I tend to think she was making excuses to herself as well as to her friends. I think it's possible that Lily had been called a "mudblood" before, by budding DEs, or sympathisers. Perhaps she knew that Snape's friends were among those who used that term? She knew that Snape's friends used Dark Magic.

I think she'd been struggling to hold on to a relationship that was doomed, and finally realized it was unsustainable.

I think Lily came to the conclusion that she couldn't change Snape, or help him. Not when he didn't want to be helped. She was strong enough not to kid herself that if she did x right, or if she was y and z, that he would turn from the path of being a DE. She was strong enough to break away from that dangerous line of thinking. She finally realised that people are responsible for their own decisions.

A Muggleborn can't be friends with a Death Eater.

I agree, it is that simple. It's not possible, it's unworkable, especially if the Muggleborn has any remote smidge of respect for him/herself. It's something pretty basic, IMO.


I also admire her character. She's often considered a 'bad friend' and 'heartbreaker' but she was neither. She was a good and honest friend to Severus. And she was free to date whoever she wanted after ending his friendship with Snape for over a year.

As they were never dating, Lily was free to date whoever she wanted at any point. I agree with the rest of your post.

Oh this a million times, I do not understand how people hate on her and blame her for Snape joining the DE!

Personally, I think "shades of grey" can be taken too far sometimes. :shrug:

And she was free to date whoever she wanted after ending his friendship with Snape for over a year.
She was even free to date whoever she wanted when she was friends with Snape imo. It's not like she would have been doing anything wrong anyway imo. She shouldn't be judged if she did start dating before sixth year started imo.

She was even free to date whoever she wanted when she was friends with Snape imo. It's not like she would have been doing anything wrong anyway imo. She shouldn't be judged if she did start dating before sixth year started imo.

No ofcourse she was free to date whoever she wanted to even during their friendship but I'm referring to James in particular. I don't think she would date someone who was her best friend's enemy but she started dating James long after she ended her friendship with Snape. So it was perfectly fine, whereas people think it was cruel of her to do so

I was rereading the Prince's Tale earlier and I noticed that it doesn't seem like Lily disliked James at all, like popularly believed in fandom. In fact, it seems like she might have had a crush on him quite early on.

“I know your theory,” said Lily, and she sounded cold. “Why are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what they’re doing at night?”
"I’m just trying to show you they’re not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.”
The intensity of his gaze made her blush.
“They don’t use Dark Magic, though.” She dropped her voice. “And you’re being really ungrateful. I heard what happened the other night. You went sneaking down that tunnel by the Whomping Willow, and James Potter saved you from whatever’s down there – ”
Snape’s whole face contorted and he spluttered, “Saved? Saved? You think he was playing the hero? He was saving his neck and his friends’ too! You’re not going to – I won’t let you – ”
“Let me? Let me?”
Lily’s bright green eyes were slits. Snape backtracked at once.
“I didn’t m ean – I just don’t want to see you made a fool of – He fancies you, James Potter fancies you!” The words seemed wrenched from him against his will. “And he’s not…everyone thinks…big Quidditch hero – ” Snape’s bitterness and dislike were rendering him incoherent, and Lily’s eyebrows were traveling farther and farther up her forehead.
“I know James Potter’s an arrogant toerag,” she said, cutting across Snape.

Why did Snape even feel the need to show her that James (and his friends) wasn't great like everyone thought he was? I can't see much of a reason, unless she was starting to show signs of liking James. When Snape said "not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are" and stared at her intently, she blushed and immediately defended James and brought up the fact that James saved Snape's life. Then a few lines later, the worst she had to say about him was that he was arrogant.

Then there's Snape's Worst Memory, where the way Lily talked about James makes it seem like she watched him quite a lot. Take the snitch for example: Sirius wondered where James got it, which makes me think that he'd never played around with a snitch before. He put it away long before Lily joined in the scene, too, which means she must have been watching him play with it a few moments before.

Add that to Jo's little comment in the Melissa/Emerson interview:

MA: How did they get together? She hated James, from what we've seen.

JKR: Did she really? You're a woman, you know what I'm saying. [Laughter]

So I really can't agree with the widely accepted view that Lily hated James at any point. I don't think she hated him at all, I think she liked him, and Snape noticed, and it obviously bothered him.

I was rereading the Prince's Tale earlier and I noticed that it doesn't seem like Lily disliked James at all, like popularly believed in fandom. In fact, it seems like she might have had a crush on him quite early on.

“I know your theory,” said Lily, and she sounded cold. “Why are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what they’re doing at night?”
"I’m just trying to show you they’re not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.”
The intensity of his gaze made her blush.
“They don’t use Dark Magic, though.” She dropped her voice. “And you’re being really ungrateful. I heard what happened the other night. You went sneaking down that tunnel by the Whomping Willow, and James Potter saved you from whatever’s down there – ”
Snape’s whole face contorted and he spluttered, “Saved? Saved? You think he was playing the hero? He was saving his neck and his friends’ too! You’re not going to – I won’t let you – ”
“Let me? Let me?”
Lily’s bright green eyes were slits. Snape backtracked at once.
“I didn’t m ean – I just don’t want to see you made a fool of – He fancies you, James Potter fancies you!” The words seemed wrenched from him against his will. “And he’s not…everyone thinks…big Quidditch hero – ” Snape’s bitterness and dislike were rendering him incoherent, and Lily’s eyebrows were traveling farther and farther up her forehead.
“I know James Potter’s an arrogant toerag,” she said, cutting across Snape.

Why did Snape even feel the need to show her that James (and his friends) wasn't great like everyone thought he was? I can't see much of a reason, unless she was starting to show signs of liking James. When Snape said "not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are" and stared at her intently, she blushed and immediately defended James and brought up the fact that James saved Snape's life. Then a few lines later, the worst she had to say about him was that he was arrogant.

Then there's Snape's Worst Memory, where the way Lily talked about James makes it seem like she watched him quite a lot. Take the snitch for example: Sirius wondered where James got it, which makes me think that he'd never played around with a snitch before. He put it away long before Lily joined in the scene, too, which means she must have been watching him play with it a few moments before.

Add that to Jo's little comment in the Melissa/Emerson interview:

MA: How did they get together? She hated James, from what we've seen.

JKR: Did she really? You're a woman, you know what I'm saying. [Laughter]

So I really can't agree with the widely accepted view that Lily hated James at any point. I don't think she hated him at all, I think she liked him, and Snape noticed, and it obviously bothered him.

She may very well have liked him in spite of herself, that doesn't mean she approved of his behaviour. She may very well have felt that like Snape his behaviour was not worthy of him, he was letting himself down by what he was doing.

I think that with Snape, Lily had gotten to know him more and liked him, but started to pull away when he made some bad choices. She knew he was a good person, beneath his new lable as Death Eater. With James, I don't think she ever saw his redeeming qualities until her 7th year. Maybe she didn't hate him but I'm sure she wouldn't have went out with him until he changed. I believe, if Snape had never made the choices he did, Lily would have ended up with him and never bothered with James.

The thing is, one does not always like certain subjects that they are good at. I aced chemistry and biology, but I neither wished to be a scientist or a doctor, both of which were recommended. On the other hand, I faired only pretty well in political science and did decide to go to business school and law school. So Lily may have chosen something that she was not academically as proficient in because it interested her. The thing is, if something interests you, it is a pleasure to study, so you can go on to do very well in it, even if initially you don't do as well.

The canon does not really provide enough information on Lily's interests for me to make a guess at what she was interested in. We know some things she was good at doing - but did she actually like them? Since her husband was rich, she could also elect to do nothing :lol:.

I can see her being a stay-at-home mom, but if she was going to work, we know a little bit about her to make a few educated guesses.

The canon does not really provide enough information on Lily's interests for me to make a guess at what she was interested in. We know some things she was good at doing - but did she actually like them? Since her husband was rich, she could also elect to do nothing

Until they went into hiding because of Snape revealing the sensitive information to Tom Marvolo. James and Lily were deep in the anti-Voldemort Resistance, which as we have been privy from the books was a full time job.

The fact that the Potter family had money was helpful since James and Lily could support even Sirius and give their full effort and time in efforts to fight against the Dark Lord and his followers.

Since Harry's parents did not live to see their son and other potential offspring they would have had grow up, we can never be certain (until J.K tells us otherwise) of what they would have done when the Dark Lord fell and peaceful existence resumed. I have a hard time imagining that a man like James would be content with living at home and living off his wealth. Much like Sirius and his son, James was a man of action who felt restless when he wasn't involved. I doubt such a man could ever be content with living at home.

Besides, the Potters never struck me as being snobbish like the Malfoy family that lived in a manor with peacocks kept as pets. Sure, the Cottage in Godric's Hollow may have only been a safe house but none the less there was a feeling of sincere modesty from both Lily and James.

Much like Sirius and his son, James was a man of action who felt restless when he wasn't involved. I doubt such a man could ever be content with living at home.

Besides, the Potters never struck me as being snobbish like the Malfoy family that lived in a manor with peacocks kept as pets. Sure, the Cottage in Godric's Hollow may have only been a safe house but none the less there was a feeling of sincere modesty from both Lily and James.

I've always pictured that house as the house Lily and James bought to raise a family in. I think it's really adorable and modest, given that they were probably well-off enough for something nicer. I would never say James was snobbish, even at his worst. There is a difference between being spoilt and being snobbish. If he was snobbish, I don't think the middle-class Lily would have found him very attractive.

I would love to ask Jo what Lily and James' career would be. I feel like James would definitely being doing something active (maybe Auror?) but I'm not so sure about Lily. Because we see her primarily as a mother, I think there is a tendency to picture her in a mother-ish role, like healing. But we know that she was excellent at potions and charms.

I've always pictured that house as the house Lily and James bought to raise a family in. I think it's really adorable and modest, given that they were probably well-off enough for something nicer. I would never say James was snobbish, even at his worst. There is a difference between being spoilt and being snobbish. If he was snobbish, I don't think the middle-class Lily would have found him very attractive.

I would love to ask Jo what Lily and James' career would be. I feel like James would definitely being doing something active (maybe Auror?) but I'm not so sure about Lily. Because we see her primarily as a mother, I think there is a tendency to picture her in a mother-ish role, like healing. But we know that she was excellent at potions and charms.

That's a very interesting question, what would their careers be. Actually I don't picture Lily in a mother role (not that much) and in any case I can't imagine her being something as a healer AT ALL. As she was such a good student I can see her getting top marks in her NEWTS and then I think she'd work in potions or charms or both maybe. I think she would develop new spells and potions and investigate both subject and find new theories etc. Like kind of a scientist in the muggle world. I can see her publishing loads of articles in very important magazine and becoming kind of a 'trendy' scientist (sorry, I really can't come up with a magical word for this) like the person of the year in the world of discoveries because I can see her having a lot of success at a really young age and doing astonishing things according to her age. So yeah, I think I can see her like, making the world of potions as cool as Quidditch. I can see her making it her motto :lol: Specially because I think James would have been a Quidditch player and I can see both of them teasing each other about their careers. Though I think that with Voldemort on the raise to power James would've become an Auror. It was definitely his kind of job. Still in the case that Voldemort didn't exist (which is obviously the only way the could have a job) he would've played Quidditch.

That's a very interesting question, what would their careers be. Actually I don't picture Lily in a mother role (not that much) and in any case I can't imagine her being something as a healer AT ALL. As she was such a good student I can see her getting top marks in her NEWTS and then I think she'd work in potions or charms or both maybe. I think she would develop new spells and potions and investigate both subject and find new theories etc. Like kind of a scientist in the muggle world. I can see her publishing loads of articles in very important magazine and becoming kind of a 'trendy' scientist (sorry, I really can't come up with a magical word for this) like the person of the year in the world of discoveries because I can see her having a lot of success at a really young age and doing astonishing things according to her age. So yeah, I think I can see her like, making the world of potions as cool as Quidditch. I can see her making it her motto :lol: Specially because I think James would have been a Quidditch player and I can see both of them teasing each other about their careers. Though I think that with Voldemort on the raise to power James would've become an Auror. It was definitely his kind of job. Still in the case that Voldemort didn't exist (which is obviously the only way the could have a job) he would've played Quidditch.


I like that idea! And I suppose her potion making skills would have made her valuable asset to the Order.

[staff edit]

Lily, I can see her doing something potions related. She could work on making antidotes at St Mungo or identify if a potion contains banned substances at the Ministry etc.

I imagine the Marauders would have taken some job at the Ministry.

But would the Marauders like working at the Ministry? I mean, I know I said James would like being an Auror but still I think it may be too much rules for them. At least Sirius and James who were the least fond of rules. I don't think they'll fancy too much the idea of working for the authority...

I agree with Justincase, I don't think James or Sirius would have considered the Ministry as a potential future employer simply because the Ministry represents authority. I think they would have found it too constricting on their style of work - most government agencies like you to work inside the box and I think James and Sirus are very much out-of-the-box thinkers and doers. I don't necessarily think that what they got in trouble for as school was ill-intentioned wrong-doing, but maybe more simply activities that didn't fall within the scope of Hogwarts rules. For example, say they were spying on a Slytherin they heard was a Death Eater - a good thing - but they were out after curfew or performing unsanctioned magic in order to track or eavesdrop on that person. They got in trouble not because what they were doing was wrong but how they were doing it happened to break rules.

Personally, I can think of lots of things James could do, depending on his interests, that are active and engaging. I can see him being a journalist if he's inclined to write, or perhaps the only Ministry jobs I think he could hold down would be Auror or Hit-Wizard or something for Magical Law enforcement but he would be the rogue cop on the force (he would be the Riggs to Lily's Murtaugh, lol! - anyone get THAT reference?? =^D ), and I think of all the marauder-era characters he would be the most likely to become a healer to me.

As for Lily, I think she's more settled and not so ADHD as James might be. I think she probably handled the administrative side of the headship her final year at Hogwarts and would probably be able to hold down an office job later in life. I know it doesn't utilize her skills but how many people get jobs in the field they got their college degree in? I could see her running a shop or, since James has money, possibly heading up a charity organization. I also think she's more political than James would be since she's muggleborn - I imagine her interests might expand into politics simply to draft muggle or muggleborn legislation or becoming something of a civil rights activist. To me, she's the help-the-little-man kind of person, a do-gooder. I think if she had lived to an old age she would have gone to her grave believing that Snape wasn't a bad person, he was a good person who made bad choices and probably regretted the loss of his friendship her whole life.

Sirius is the question mark for me. He seems so much more reckless than I imagine James being (tho they are described as similar characters I imagine James to be a little more conservative because of his older parents and Sirius to be the wild-child because of his abandonment of his family and the freedom that allowed at such a young age) and have a hard time imagining him in any kind of job.

Sorry about discussing James so in depth in a Lily thread but I think it's relavant in reflecting on Lily's character - James and lily, for me, are opposites that attract - James being the more wild, loose-canon, quick to anger type and Lily is the grounded, steady one that can keep him from flying off the handle all the time. Inversely, I think James brought a lightness and a fun to their relationship that Lily never had in her relationship with Snape, which I imagine as being serious and heavy all the time.

I think that with Snape, Lily had gotten to know him more and liked him, but started to pull away when he made some bad choices. She knew he was a good person, beneath his new lable as Death Eater. With James, I don't think she ever saw his redeeming qualities until her 7th year. Maybe she didn't hate him but I'm sure she wouldn't have went out with him until he changed. I believe, if Snape had never made the choices he did, Lily would have ended up with him and never bothered with James.

That's just it, would they have become closer enough for her to fall in love with him?

I mean, Snape loved her from the start; Lily never reciprocated that unrequited feeling. Sure, his interest in dark magic and hanging out in the wrong crowd did not help him but his capacity for cruelty did not suddenly sprung up because he had been passed over by Lily. He hung out with the wrong crowd, knowing fully well what they thought of everyone. Even if he wasn't completely sold on blood supremacy, he still ended up calling Lily a mudblood.

Besides, I think James was easier to mould into what Lily wanted him to be, while Snape was very much a lost cause in many ways. Even after she told him she disliked his interest in the Dark Arts and his hanging around with the eventual Death Eater group he didn't stop. Snape didn't seem interested enough in changing himself to be a better person, he wanted Lily to simply 'accept' him for and whom he was.

I think his character is somewhat despicable for the fact that he only wanted Lily to be left alive by the Dark Lord. Undoubtedly, he would have tried to woo her after the death of her son and the love of her life. At least I can't see him not trying with James and Harry out of the way.

On the other hand, I think it's a bit harsh to claim that Lily saw Snape for who he could be without seeing that James, other than his haughty arrogant exterior was a likeable modest person. The idea that James had no redeeming qualities because he was arrogant due his popularity and Quidditch talents is truly harsh. Snape had one redeeming quality at the end of the day, his unrequited love for Lily. James on the other hand, matured into a fine young adult; who was loyal to his family, loyal to his friends, he cared for them all, he fought bravely against the Dark Lord, he sacrificed a potentially comfortable life and indeed his life in the fight to save innocent lives. The same can't be said for Snape, whose primary and only reason for betraying Voldemort was his selfish interest in Lily Potter.

Guys, this is the Lily thread and all posts should be mainly about her. If you want to discuss James, Sirius, Remus etc, they all have their own threads where you can do that.

Discussion of Lily's relationships with James and Snape should focus mostly on her character and decisions, NOT on their characters/who deserved her most. In particular, NB the No Snape vs Marauders rule. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=129321)

Ignoring this inthread could lead to a forum ban.

My apologies. Did not mean to infringe upon the rules of the forum.

I also think she's more political than James would be since she's muggleborn - I imagine her interests might expand into politics simply to draft muggle or muggleborn legislation or becoming something of a civil rights activist. To me, she's the help-the-little-man kind of person, a do-gooder. I think if she had lived to an old age she would have gone to her grave believing that Snape wasn't a bad person, he was a good person who made bad choices and probably regretted the loss of his friendship her whole life.
Though IMO I can't imagine Lily doing office work I agree with you about the 'help-the-little-man' part. I still support my idea of her being a wizarding scientist but I think she could be doing some activist work at the same time. Like I said I think she would become a famous witch for her outstanding knowledge at such a young age so I see her as quite an influential person so she could handle quite successfully this kind of job. Then about Lily doing office work well, she's not James but still that'd be way to boring for her.

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

I think it made their friendship much stronger. Like... Ron and Harry, really, because they shared something incredible. Even more in Lily and Snape's case. I think that, thanks to Snape, Lily wasn't scared to leave (which would be the normal way to react), he reassured her.

And, when it was Summer Break, they would keep all that magic alive. they shared a bond that none of her friends in Hogwarts could have with her.


Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
Maybe with years helping... But I don't think so really. But you never know, look what happened with Dudley.
I think something broke between the two sisters, and that something could have been mended, if both of them had wanted to. It seemed that Lily wished too but not Petunia.

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.
She seemed to be the kind of person who would have different types of friends. Like Lupin said, (even if it's in a movie, we saw that it was true, with Snape at the very least) she saw the best in everyone. So, I don't think she really bothered about Houses.

According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

I think her other friends only saw one side of Severus. Also, he was a Slytherin, and Lily being a Gryffindor, I think that was more than enough for her Gryffindor friends to disagree with that relationship :lol:. That only shows that Lily didn't care for Houses.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

I think she did forgive him, deep down. But it's not because you forgive someone that you forget the offense. Or that it "changes" that person. She forgave him for calling her like that, but he was still a DeathEater. Lily finally faced the truth: they were at a crossroads. He chose his path, and she had no place in that path.
I don't think she was bitter, but extremely sad, because she indeed lost her best friend.

I think that, hadn't she died, they might have been friends again someday. The fact that she was married to James didn't stop Snape loving her.
And Lily seemed the kind of person who wouldn't let a friend down, even if husband wasn't too pleased with that :lol:

I think that with Snape, Lily had gotten to know him more and liked him, but started to pull away when he made some bad choices. She knew he was a good person, beneath his new lable as Death Eater. With James, I don't think she ever saw his redeeming qualities until her 7th year. Maybe she didn't hate him but I'm sure she wouldn't have went out with him until he changed. I believe, if Snape had never made the choices he did, Lily would have ended up with him and never bothered with James.

I disagree with you about Lily and Snape ending up together. Snape was in love with Lily, yes. But I strongly doubt Lily was in love with him. Friendship, as strong as it can be, is not love. Had Lily been in love with him, they would have already dated (because they "ended" their friendship when they were 15/16, so... it would have already happened if loving feelings had existed).


The canon does not really provide enough information on Lily's interests for me to make a guess at what she was interested in. We know some things she was good at doing - but did she actually like them? Since her husband was rich, she could also elect to do nothing :lol:.

I really, really can't see Lily as the kind of woman who would go "My husband is rich, I don't need to work" :lol:
She seemed independant and active and very gifted. I think that, with all the war going on and the Order, they both chose not to work since they could afford it. They probably thought they could do more valuable work for the Order. But I'm kinda sure they would have ended up working... if they had lived.

I really, really can't see Lily as the kind of woman who would go "My husband is rich, I don't need to work" :lol:

I can't see that either. :) That would be very against the Rowling ethos in how she depicts her 'good' women. Even if her female characters are in traditional roles, they are still very strong women. In fact, you can directly contrast Lily, a positive example of a 'stay at home mum', with Petunia, the traditional housewife who is obsessed with keeping up appearances. :whistle:

But very little -- if anything -- is made in canon of James and Lily's combined marital wealth. It's just not a plot point that is ever developed as part of the backstory.

I know we can't post the passage from Pottermore but would anyone care to speculate the fact that Lily Evans has almost the exact same type of wand as Ron?

I know we can't post the passage from Pottermore but would anyone care to speculate the fact that Lily Evans has almost the exact same type of wand as Ron?

The wood is the same, but do we know Lily's wand core? (I haven't been able to find it).

Unless we know the wand core, I'm not sure how much speculating we could do.

1. Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realized. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
I believe that it shows that everyone is different, and that you are not alone. Lily thought she was the only one who could do magic, and believed she was a freak. It also shows that everyone in the magical world, and at Hogwarts are always together and one big, happy family
Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
I guess it was never really shown to Petunia is a positive light. Maybe if the magical was shown and explained to Petunia, she would understand Lily better.
Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.
I think she had the type of friends Harry had. Kind, loyal, and brave. Plus she was probably nice to everyone, so she had friends in every house :)
According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
She was a kind person, and saw the good in every one!
Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?
That was probably the last straw. Calling someone names when they claim to be your friend, is not the way to be a friend. She probably would've felt bad about it in the long run, seeing what kind of person she was. She would've seen he was really a good person

I think her other friends only saw one side of Severus. Also, he was a Slytherin, and Lily being a Gryffindor, I think that was more than enough for her Gryffindor friends to disagree with that relationship :lol:. That only shows that Lily didn't care for Houses.

I don't think her friends were against Snape just because of House rivalries. IMO, their concerns were a mirror of Lily's concerns about Snape hanging around with Mulciber and Avery. Lily considered Snape's wannabe DE friends a bad influence, Lily's friends considered her wannabe DE friend a bad influence.



I think that, hadn't she died, they might have been friends again someday. The fact that she was married to James didn't stop Snape loving her.
And Lily seemed the kind of person who wouldn't let a friend down, even if husband wasn't too pleased with that :lol:

I think Lily would not reconsider unless she was certain that Snape had moved away from his Death Eater days. And in a genuine way, not in a false and opportunistic Malfoy/Macnair/Crabbe type way. She realised in her fifth year that she could not have any kind of friendship with a Death Eater.
As you said in your post, Lily had no place on that path.

I really, really can't see Lily as the kind of woman who would go "My husband is rich, I don't need to work" :lol:
She seemed independant and active and very gifted. I think that, with all the war going on and the Order, they both chose not to work since they could afford it. They probably thought they could do more valuable work for the Order. But I'm kinda sure they would have ended up working... if they had lived.

I agree. I think that if she had survived the war, Lily would have put her talents to use, career-wise.

But very little -- if anything -- is made in canon of James and Lily's combined marital wealth. It's just not a plot point that is ever developed as part of the backstory.

It wasn't that important, IMO. It meant that they could work full-time for the Order, and it meant that Harry had funds for his schooling, but I don't think their wealth was all that important - they weren't Lucius and Narcissa types. I can't see them living in a manor with peacocks strutting about or bribing the Ministry. :rolleyes:

It also shows that everyone in the magical world, and at Hogwarts are always together and one big, happy family

I wouldn't consider it one big happy family - I imagine Lily probably learned very quickly at Hogwarts that there were people who considered her scum because of her parentage. She probably learned quickly that there were people who didn't think she had any right to learn magic. The war was beginning around the time of her first year, so she would have seen that the magical community was just as complex and prejudiced as the Muggle world and that there were truly dangerous people in the magical world.

I think she had the type of friends Harry had. Kind, loyal, and brave. Plus she was probably nice to everyone, so she had friends in every house :)

I tend to think Harry had better luck with his friends than either of his parents. :sigh:

She probably would've felt bad about it in the long run, seeing what kind of person she was. She would've seen he was really a good person

I don't think Lily would have felt bad about standing up for herself and respecting herself. I think she would have been sad at what Snape became, but I think she would recognise that it was not her responsibility to save him, that he had to be the one to recognise that the path he was on was a problem, and that she couldn't realistically be in a friendship with a Death Eater.

Lily is one of the big characters. that is how i see her. such a nice character.

I agree. I think that if she had survived the war, Lily would have put her talents to use, career-wise.


That's exactly what I think. I just don't see her as a "housewife". It doesn't seem to work with the temper we've seen (even if we didn't see much lol).

I feel that Lily is actually a lot like Ginny.

That's exactly what I think. I just don't see her as a "housewife". It doesn't seem to work with the temper we've seen (even if we didn't see much lol).

I feel that Lily is actually a lot like Ginny.

I always saw Lily as more like Hermione and Ginny more like James.

Lily would have been prettier and much more popular than Hermione and maybe not as much of a nerd and bookworm but very clever, intelligent and righteous. They also had a softness to them emotionally. Ginny was a bit more gritty and tough when she grew up. I see Lily and Hermione as slightly more emotional, i.g Hermione crying all through DH and Lily crying all night when she heard the news of the Mckinnons being killed.

Slughorn does mention how LIly was witty, voracious, gutsy and could have been in Slytherin House though so they really are their own separate characters, just with some similarities.

That's exactly what I think. I just don't see her as a "housewife". It doesn't seem to work with the temper we've seen (even if we didn't see much lol).

I feel that Lily is actually a lot like Ginny.

It's surprising that you don't think a temper can work alongside being a "housewife" -- it seems to work just fine with Molly!

While Lily has no problem expressing herself, she is always described by the people who knew her as kind and compassionate; and she seems to be the type of person who always tried to understand people. In that last respect, I think Hermione is a bit like Lily...always pondering about people & trying understand what makes them tick.

It's surprising that you don't think a temper can work alongside being a "housewife" -- it seems to work just fine with Molly!

:lol: :tu: Yes, quite. Being a housewife does not equate to being a placid person. :hmm:

While Lily has no problem expressing herself, she is always described by the people who knew her as kind and compassionate; and she seems to be the type of person who always tried to understand people. In that last respect, I think Hermione is a bit like Lily...always pondering about people & trying understand what makes them tick.

For what it's worth, I regard Hermione as a much more rounded, and better developed, character than either Lily or Ginny. Perhaps that's not surprising since Hermione is a principal character, as opposed to Ginny playing a more secondary role in the story and Lily being part of the backstory. But that is not a discussion for this thread. :)

I have come to the conclusion, after months (years! :lol:) of debate, that I like the idea of Lily, as a compassionate but feisty girl who knew her own mind, rather better than the actual way in which this is written. Not that I dislike Lily. :) I just don't regard her as a main character, although obviously what she does –- saving Harry at the expense of her own life -- has a hugely significant impact on the whole saga! Without Lily's sacrifice, there wouldn't be a story at all. :cool: Which in itself makes Lily quite fascinating. But I can never warm to her the way I do Hermione, simply because Hermione's character is portrayed in depth over seven books. :cool:

According to the fact that Lily had Willow wood as her wand it means she had amazing potential but it also meant that she had a lot of insecurities that held her back. Would anyone care to speculate what those insecurities were?

According to the fact that Lily had Willow wood as her wand it means she had amazing potential but it also meant that she had a lot of insecurities that held her back. Would anyone care to speculate what those insecurities were?
I think it would be hard for any muggleborn to not internalize some of the hate thrown at them, and Lily is no exception imo. We see her asking Snape if being a muggleborn mattered. I don't think she would ask if she didn't have some sort of worry about it. Then she goes to a school that has future death eaters who attack people like her. She must have heard their propaganda about how she wasn't a real witch and how muggleborns could never be as good as purebloods. Her own friend even chooses the idealogy over her. I definitely think all of this affected Lily and she was at least a little insecure about it.

According to the fact that Lily had Willow wood as her wand it means she had amazing potential but it also meant that she had a lot of insecurities that held her back. Would anyone care to speculate what those insecurities were?

Could you tell me where there's information that certain types of wand woods indicate psychological issues (insecurities) of their users? I don't recall where we're told that.

Could you tell me where there's information that certain types of wand woods indicate psychological issues (insecurities) of their users? I don't recall where we're told that.
I believe that statement was made in reference to Pottermore, and as Pottermore information is still barred from discussion I do not think it wise to either confirm or refute the idea that wand woods could indicate wizards' insecurities. Instead, perhaps the conversation should avoid mention of wand woods and just ask users if we think Lily harbored any insecurities, why that would be so, and if there is any indication in the text/accessible-to-all information. :)

Personally, I agree with DeliciousMoon that likely any Muggle-born (or even half-bloods like Dean or Harry who did not know about magic until Hogwarts) would have harbored some internal insecurities about his/her place/suitability in the Wizarding world. And I think Lily had a fairly proud personality that would try to cover up those insecurities through performance/proving her worth in the world of magic - not unlike Hermione.

Though IMO I can't imagine Lily doing office work I agree with you about the 'help-the-little-man' part.

I do agree with you in part, but I think despite the fact that she would probably hate it and find doing 'office work' incredibly boring I can see her doing it because it's part of her job description as a Head (I assume there's a certain admin aspect to the post) and I imagine that she would probably get stuck doing all of it because James, to me, would flat out refuse to doing something as deadly dull as office work. I think she would do it because she has to. And, speaking from personal experience, sometimes it's incredibly satisfying when you have a really active or stressful job just to take a few days and do your paperwork and revel in the mundaneness of it for a while. And then when you're good and sick of that you go back to the stressful stuff =-)

Personally, I agree with DeliciousMoon that likely any Muggle-born (or even half-bloods like Dean or Harry who did not know about magic until Hogwarts) would have harbored some internal insecurities about his/her place/suitability in the Wizarding world. And I think Lily had a fairly proud personality that would try to cover up those insecurities through performance/proving her worth in the world of magic - not unlike Hermione.

Interesting insight about her wand wood.

In think addition to just being a muggleborn in wizarding society, she's also the only witch in a muggle household and we can surmise that after Petunia was refused admittance to Hogwarts she probably didn't make life really easy for Lily when she was home on breaks. So when Lily gets home for her holidays thinking she's getting a break from all the snide comments and jibes from Slytherins she instead walks into a household where her sister in probably passive-aggressively undermining her or tearing her down to make herself feel better. Lily probably had problems in both her worlds which can be incredibly stressful and lead to a lot of social or relationship insecurities because of those problems. I also think, though, that she would have the personal strength to rise above those problems.

I think it would be hard for any muggleborn to not internalize some of the hate thrown at them, and Lily is no exception imo. We see her asking Snape if being a muggleborn mattered. I don't think she would ask if she didn't have some sort of worry about it. Then she goes to a school that has future death eaters who attack people like her. She must have heard their propaganda about how she wasn't a real witch and how muggleborns could never be as good as purebloods. Her own friend even chooses the idealogy over her. I definitely think all of this affected Lily and she was at least a little insecure about it.

I agree - and given the climate in the wizarding world when Lily started at Hogwarts, I imagine that she hadn't been there long before she was confronted with that kind of malicious prejudice. She would have gone through her entire Hogwarts career knowing that there was an element in the wizarding world, and within Hogwarts that didn't want her there, that thought she was unworthy to even live. I think that something like that surely had an effect. However, I also think that she had a lot of inner strength - she continued attending Hogwarts, even though the war was going on, even though she knew what she faced from Death Eaters and their sympathisers as a Muggleborn.


Personally, I agree with DeliciousMoon that likely any Muggle-born (or even half-bloods like Dean or Harry who did not know about magic until Hogwarts) would have harbored some internal insecurities about his/her place/suitability in the Wizarding world. And I think Lily had a fairly proud personality that would try to cover up those insecurities through performance/proving her worth in the world of magic - not unlike Hermione.

I can see Lily trying to cover up her insecurities through working and striving to do as well as she could. However, I can also imagine her using sharp words and cheek as a way of dealing with it - Slughorn describes her as "cheeky", and cheek is also shown as Harry's way of responding to those who try to put him down. I can see Lily having a retort for those who called her a "mudblood" - she did in canon, so I can see her talking back to anyone who tried to demean her in such a way.

I do agree with you in part, but I think despite the fact that she would probably hate it and find doing 'office work' incredibly boring I can see her doing it because it's part of her job description as a Head (I assume there's a certain admin aspect to the post) and I imagine that she would probably get stuck doing all of it because James, to me, would flat out refuse to doing something as deadly dull as office work. I think she would do it because she has to. And, speaking from personal experience, sometimes it's incredibly satisfying when you have a really active or stressful job just to take a few days and do your paperwork and revel in the mundaneness of it for a while. And then when you're good and sick of that you go back to the stressful stuff =-)

I don't know if the Head Girl and Boy would have had that much paperwork. It seems to be more of a position relating to showing leadership and assisting the teachers in monitoring other students. If it was assigned to them, I don't think James would have been able to skive off the duty, and I don't think Lily would have allowed him to leave her with all the shared responsibility. Plus, James was one of the best students in his year, so he had to have applied himself to study at some point.


Lily probably had problems in both her worlds which can be incredibly stressful and lead to a lot of social or relationship insecurities because of those problems. I also think, though, that she would have the personal strength to rise above those problems.

I agree, I think it's shown in the fact that she took a stand against prejudice, and went on to join the Order and thrice defied Voldemort. As for her relationship with Petunia, I think she continued to find it hurtful that her only sibling no longer wanted a relationship with her. She put up the vase that Petunia gave her, even though she didn't like it.

I don't know if the Head Girl and Boy would have had that much paperwork. It seems to be more of a position relating to showing leadership and assisting the teachers in monitoring other students. If it was assigned to them, I don't think James would have been able to skive off the duty, and I don't think Lily would have allowed him to leave her with all the shared responsibility. Plus, James was one of the best students in his year, so he had to have applied himself to study at some point.

We actually don't know a whole lot about what head duties would have included - the only Head Boy we're introduced to in Percy and he mostly went around being pompous =^P It's very likely that their duties were only doing things that would support teachers and 'show leadership' to the students but I also think that the Heads would have been involved with organizing Prefects, possibly organizing larger (as in than one-on-one) tutoring sessions for the younger students, the distribution of passwords at the start of the year, possibly counseling students in some capacity, especially first or second years etc. I think they may have also been required to sit in on staff meetings and the like.

I think the heads were not only picked because of their ability to 'show leadership' in whatever capacity that entails, but also because of their demonstration of responsibility, accountability, maturity and overall ability to handle the added stress of the position in addition to their N.E.W.T. level classwork. With all those things, I think, would come a certain level of admin duties, they're unavoidable. I'm not saying they're constantly wading through paperwork but I'm sure they had the odd form to fill out, notice to copy and distribute for posting and the like.

As for James' ability to skive off his duties, I think it depends on how he and Lily divvied them up and how stubborn they each could be. For me I imagine them both being fairly stubborn individuals but I also think James would have a greater ability to hold out whereas Lily might cave in and just do whatever James was avoiding simiply to get it done and avoid getting in trouble. It's a pick your battles kind of situation, did she really want to go in circles for days about something she could just get done in twenty minutes? I think after the third offence, though, she would have started putting her foot down with him.

Yes, James was one of the best in his year and yes he would have had to apply himself to his schoolwork but I also think he could have used that as an excuse not to do something he didn't want to do ("Oh, but I have SO MUCH homework, Lily. Couldn't you handle it just this one time?). Let's not forget that James was an only child born to elderly, doting parents and could probably be a lot more bratty than Lily - not to say he didn't grow out of it to certain extents but he was still a 17 year old boy and was fully capable of throwing the odd fit if things didn't go his way. (And I don't mean to imply that all he did was go around throwing fits, by this time in his life he was maturing to the point where he was becoming an interest for Lily but no one is immune to having a bad day and just wanting to throw a fit.) (Sorry for the OT rant on James in the Lily thread)

And just because James threw the odd fit doesn't, for me, mean Lily would pass him by again - on the whole James was maturing and Lily recognized that, found it attractive and they began dating. When he did throw fits, though, I think she would either write it off as him having a bad day like we all do or, depending on how long it went on, she'd give him a preverbial smack upside the head and tell him to snap out of it. She also would have a lot more leverage with him once they started dating *wink wink* than she would have had before that.

I don't think her friends were against Snape just because of House rivalries. IMO, their concerns were a mirror of Lily's concerns about Snape hanging around with Mulciber and Avery. Lily considered Snape's wannabe DE friends a bad influence, Lily's friends considered her wannabe DE friend a bad influence.
I absolutely agree with you about Lily's friends worrying about Lily hanging with a would-be DE still I think there's a big part of prejudice there. Snape it's not the kind of guy you'd like to hang with you know? Greasy hair, always silent and so serious, with those strange clothes AND from Slytherin which I thinks has an influence but more like creating a stereotype than with any kind of House rivalry.
It's not like her friends were bad people that had loads of prejudices and just cared about the outside or anything. It's society in general that doesn't like people that 'stand out' from normal. Like Ron didn't like Luna at the beginning and thought she was a total freak and still that doesn't make him some kind of idiot.
So IMO in the beginning it was probably 99% of prejudice because with 11 years old Snape wasn't so much into the Dark Arts (infact I believe there was no such a thing as DE)and also at that age kids care a lot about appearance and all that.
And then when they started to grow up Lily's friends would become more mature and learn that the outside's not that important and also realize that hanging with people like that could actually be harmful to Lily. Because of course by that time Snape would be already about to become a DE.
So yeah that's how I see it

If Lily were to never die I believe she would have forgave Snape: If here love was powerful enough to save Harry, I'm sure she could find the power to forgive.

=FurryDice;5937721]I agree - and given the climate in the wizarding world when Lily started at Hogwarts, I imagine that she hadn't been there long before she was confronted with that kind of malicious prejudice. She would have gone through her entire Hogwarts career knowing that there was an element in the wizarding world, and within Hogwarts that didn't want her there, that thought she was unworthy to even live. I think that something like that surely had an effect. However, I also think that she had a lot of inner strength - she continued attending Hogwarts, even though the war was going on, even though she knew what she faced from Death Eaters and their sympathisers as a Muggleborn.

Yeah, it's kind of forgotten just how much courage it would have taken for Lily to attend Hogwarts where those wanna be Death Eaters were. Her best friend was part of the group and ignoring her concerns and she still kept trying to help him. Right up till he revealed just how much he had started to believe in the Death Eater philosophy of bigotry. The girl had guts.


I can see Lily trying to cover up her insecurities through working and striving to do as well as she could. However, I can also imagine her using sharp words and cheek as a way of dealing with it - Slughorn describes her as "cheeky", and cheek is also shown as Harry's way of responding to those who try to put him down. I can see Lily having a retort for those who called her a "mudblood" - she did in canon, so I can see her talking back to anyone who tried to demean her in such a way.

Well, she wasn't a walkover, that's for sure.


I don't know if the Head Girl and Boy would have had that much paperwork. It seems to be more of a position relating to showing leadership and assisting the teachers in monitoring other students. If it was assigned to them, I don't think James would have been able to skive off the duty, and I don't think Lily would have allowed him to leave her with all the shared responsibility. Plus, James was one of the best students in his year, so he had to have applied himself to study at some point.

I think that James never skived off anything about his schoolwork in his entire student 'career'. Even a genius has to work at it and James even though he and Sirius were the most intelligent students of their year would have had to apply himself.


I agree, I think it's shown in the fact that she took a stand against prejudice, and went on to join the Order and thrice defied Voldemort. As for her relationship with Petunia, I think she continued to find it hurtful that her only sibling no longer wanted a relationship with her. She put up the vase that Petunia gave her, even though she didn't like it.

I think Lily would never have stopped trying to be a sister to Petunia. She, I think anyway would always have been loyal to her family. Petunia was Lily's blood and that is a powerful bond to someone who never lost the power of love.

=Justincase;5943550]I absolutely agree with you about Lily's friends worrying about Lily hanging with a would-be DE still I think there's a big part of prejudice there. Snape it's not the kind of guy you'd like to hang with you know? Greasy hair, always silent and so serious, with those strange clothes AND from Slytherin which I thinks has an influence but more like creating a stereotype than with any kind of House rivalry.

I kinda think that Snape's clothes would have been the same as the rest of the student body. That's the great thing about school uniforms, they make sure that no student dresses better or worse than any other student. His standards of 'personal hygiene' would probably have had more impact than his school robes. That was down to Snape to rectify, Lily could hardly drag him into the closest bathroom and bathe him.

If Lily were to never die I believe she would have forgave Snape: If here love was powerful enough to save Harry, I'm sure she could find the power to forgive.

I'm really sure that Lily probably did forgive Snape. She probably just didn't want to be friends with a bigot who publicly insulted her, so she cut the contact. Snape revealed so much of his inner prejudice with his 'apology'. I think Lily just realized that he was never going to change and she would be in real danger sooner or later from his Death Eater friends and maybe even from Snape himself. She died because of Voldemort's acting on Snape's information about the prophecy, so IMO she was right to be worried

I think that James never skived off anything about his schoolwork in his entire student 'career'. Even a genius has to work at it and James even though he and Sirius were the most intelligent students of their year would have had to apply himself.

I can't find the exact quote but aren't James and Sirius described as the cleverest students of their year? While "intelligent" and "clever" are synonyms "clever" implies an originality of thought or idea that intelligence doesn't. One can be intelligent but not clever but cleverness implies that a level of intelligence has already been achieved.

And even though I want to reply about James skiving off duties (because I do fully believe him capable of it and that to some extent he probably did) this is the Lily thread and would be OT. And to be clear, I don't think he went around not doing his homework, I think he didn't think his Head duties were worth his time (at least at the beginning of the year)

Yeah, it's kind of forgotten just how much courage it would have taken for Lily to attend Hogwarts where those wanna be Death Eaters were.

I do agree that Lily was a very courageous young woman, even as an eleven-year-old girl, to stick it out at a school where she knows she's not wanted, is thought of as a second-class citizen and that she'd have to fight for everything she gets.

I'm really sure that Lily probably did forgive Snape.

In her heart I'm sure she forgave him. I also (though most people don't agree with me) think there was a part of her who wanted to reconcille the friendship, hoping that he'd see the light and realize his views on muggleborns were wrong, but I don't think it would have been anything more than a hope.

I do not want to have to remind people again that this is the Lily thread, not the James/Sirius/Remus/Snape/Giant Squid thread. Extended debates about e.g. whether or not James was lazy should not be conducted on this thread, even if they start with a point about Lily. Ignoring this inthread will lead to a forum ban.

=Goddess_Clio;5943791]I can't find the exact quote but aren't James and Sirius described as the cleverest students of their year? While "intelligent" and "clever" are synonyms "clever" implies an originality of thought or idea that intelligence doesn't. One can be intelligent but not clever but cleverness implies that a level of intelligence has already been achieved.

And even though I want to reply about James skiving off duties (because I do fully believe him capable of it and that to some extent he probably did) this is the Lily thread and would be OT. And to be clear, I don't think he went around not doing his homework, I think he didn't think his Head duties were worth his time (at least at the beginning of the year)

Replied to in the Marauders thread.



I do agree that Lily was a very courageous young woman, even as an eleven-year-old girl, to stick it out at a school where she knows she's not wanted, is thought of as a second-class citizen and that she'd have to fight for everything she gets.

Oh I don't think Lily was unwanted at Hogwarts. She was a fully magical child who had to be taught how to use her natural gift for magic. I think every decent student and teacher at Hogwarts would have welcomed her. The danger lay in the bigotry and hatred of those few students who wanted to be Death Eaters and who grouped together to hurt and humilate the Muggleborn witches and wizards like Lily.


In her heart I'm sure she forgave him. I also (though most people don't agree with me) think there was a part of her who wanted to reconcille the friendship, hoping that he'd see the light and realize his views on muggleborns were wrong, but I don't think it would have been anything more than a hope

I'm one of those that would have to say that Lily, looked back on her freindship with him with anything but regret for a young man who threw away his talents on such a worthless cause as the pursuit of power. She was freinds with Snape for a long time, she tried to help him and she defended him. I think her pain at his betrayel must have cut her to the quick. So yes I think she may have forgiven him the action of insulting her so badly, but I don't think she could have ever forgiven him for becoming a criminal and being instrumental in the murder of her husband.

Oh I don't think Lily was unwanted at Hogwarts. She was a fully magical child who had to be taught how to use her natural gift for magic. I think every decent student and teacher at Hogwarts would have welcomed her. The danger lay in the bigotry and hatred of those few students who wanted to be Death Eaters and who grouped together to hurt and humilate the Muggleborn witches and wizards like Lily.

DANG IT! I revised my post to say that she was unwanted and thought of as a second class citizen by some (the school aged future DEs) but I guess it didn't save... phooey. I agree with your reply.

I also think though that the hurtfulness of the future DEs or biased students would have stuck out a lot more in her mind than eveyone telling her she's a perfect fit and deserved to be there - we always believe our bad reviews more than the good or at least they stick out more to us than the good ones. I think Lily knew she belonged at hogwarts and but always felt a little different because of the future DEs' treatment of her.


I'm one of those that would have to say that Lily, looked back on her freindship with him with anything but regret for a young man who threw away his talents on such a worthless cause as the pursuit of power. She was freinds with Snape for a long time, she tried to help him and she defended him. I think her pain at his betrayel must have cut her to the quick. So yes I think she may have forgiven him the action of insulting her so badly, but I don't think she could have ever forgiven him for becoming a criminal and being instrumental in the murder of her husband.

I do think she would have forgiven him - over and over I think she forgave him for all kinds of things he might have said or done to her that we never see in the books. I don't think him calling her a mudblood was the one and only time he ever did anything like that to her, I think it was the worst offense and probably the straw that broke the camel's back. My own personal view of Lily and Snape's relationship is that they were probably pretty codependant. I think she probably had a 'saving people thing' with him (where Harry would have inherited it?) and his own upbringing, in what we're sort of led to believe was in an abusive household, might have led to a hot and cold treatment of Lily. He probably never had a healthy, loving relationship in his life to base his desired relationship with Lily on so he probably repeated some of the behaviors he had seen in his own household of his father 'showing affection' to his mother which probably wasn't all together very loving but rather domineering or controlling. Even women who appear strong in every other way can fall victim to an abusive relationship and just never realize it until they're too deep to get out easily. But again, all my own opinion and a lot of people will probably be upset over it...

I do think she would have forgiven him - over and over I think she forgave him for all kinds of things he might have said or done to her that we never see in the books. I don't think him calling her a mudblood was the one and only time he ever did anything like that to her, I think it was the worst offense and probably the straw that broke the camel's back. My own personal view of Lily and Snape's relationship is that they were probably pretty codependant. I think she probably had a 'saving people thing' with him (where Harry would have inherited it?) and his own upbringing, in what we're sort of led to believe was in an abusive household, might have led to a hot and cold treatment of Lily. He probably never had a healthy, loving relationship in his life to base his desired relationship with Lily on so he probably repeated some of the behaviors he had seen in his own household of his father 'showing affection' to his mother which probably wasn't all together very loving but rather domineering or controlling. Even women who appear strong in every other way can fall victim to an abusive relationship and just never realize it until they're too deep to get out easily. But again, all my own opinion and a lot of people will probably be upset over it...


Oh I think Lily and Snape were probably in that kind of relaintionship. We see it in one of the earlier memories when Snape is ignoring Lily's very real concerns and brushes off her statement about her friend Mary, who was assaulted by his friends. This was IMO typical of Snape's behaviour with Lily and I think the scales fell from her eyes in a big way when he called her that vile name. I think she realised that Snape simply did not repect her. He may have had some kind of feelings for her, but respect was never high on the list, IMO.

Everybody - this is all getting a bit too Snapey. Remember, when discussing Lily's relationship with Snape on this thread, the main focus should be on her feelings/choices/actions. Obviously, Snape's can be mentioned if they are relevant to explaining Lily's, but this must not turn into a trial/defence of Snape with Lily just takng a cameo role, OK?

DI also think though that the hurtfulness of the future DEs or biased students would have stuck out a lot more in her mind than eveyone telling her she's a perfect fit and deserved to be there - we always believe our bad reviews more than the good or at least they stick out more to us than the good ones. I think Lily knew she belonged at hogwarts and but always felt a little different because of the future DEs' treatment of her.

I don't think that's a universal trait--recalling our bad reviews more than our good ones--but I do think Lily would have possessed it. I get a glimmer of some insecurity there; I don't have the books handy, but I definitely got that impression, and I think that bad reviews stick out more to someone like that. Her parents were proud--or at least Petunia liked to say--but one does crave peer approval at that age.

And with that in mind, I think it's useful to remember that that awful boy (Petunia's words) was the first person she could really talk about that world with. Whatever else he might have been or done, that short time before the first train to Hogwarts would have been worth a lot in her eyes. Maybe that's why she was Sorted Gryffindor; maybe anyone else would have dropped a nascent Death Eater, no matter the circumstances.

In time, I think, like many talented people, she came to recognize that her own self-image was not primarily tied to what she could do for other people. My own feeling--and it has no particular basis in canon--is that this recognition freed her in a sense to fall fully in love with James. Without that recognition, I think she would have deflected much of her attention to those she felt deserved it.

I absolutely agree with you about Lily's friends worrying about Lily hanging with a would-be DE still I think there's a big part of prejudice there. Snape it's not the kind of guy you'd like to hang with you know? Greasy hair, always silent and so serious, with those strange clothes AND from Slytherin which I thinks has an influence but more like creating a stereotype than with any kind of House rivalry.
It's not like her friends were bad people that had loads of prejudices and just cared about the outside or anything. It's society in general that doesn't like people that 'stand out' from normal. Like Ron didn't like Luna at the beginning and thought she was a total freak and still that doesn't make him some kind of idiot.

I don't think that Lily's friends disliked Snape because of House rivalries or his lack of hygiene. I think they disliked him for the very same reason that Lily disliked Mulciber and Avery - they were dangerous, a bad influence. Lily feared that Mulciber and Avery would lead Snape down the wrong path. Lily's friends probably feared that Snape would do that to Lily.
I don't think Ron disliked Luna, I think he considered her eccentric, and he didn't understand her unusual ways.

If Lily were to never die I believe she would have forgave Snape: If here love was powerful enough to save Harry, I'm sure she could find the power to forgive.

Lily may have forgiven Snape while she was still alive, we simply don't know. Forgiveness does not mean letting someone dangerous back into your life so they can hurt you again. For example, you (general) could forgive the person who mugged you, but that doesn't mean you'd give them your wallet and ask them to get your groceries. In the same way, Lily forgiving Snape doesn't mean she would want a friendship with him again. It doesn't mean she would put her family, herself and the Order at risk for the sake of a friendship with a Death Eater. IMO, forgiveness changes the person who forgives, it doesn't change the person who is forgiven. If Lily did forgive Snape, it doesn't mean she would have put back on the scales over her eyes, as MsJPotter calls them, that she shed at sixteen.


I think Lily would never have stopped trying to be a sister to Petunia. She, I think anyway would always have been loyal to her family. Petunia was Lily's blood and that is a powerful bond to someone who never lost the power of love.

From Lily's letter to Sirius, I think we see that she may have been trying to laugh off how much Petunia's animosity hurt her. She was joking about the vase being horrible - but she did put it on display. She didn't hide it away, even though there was no chance of Petunia calling around for dinner.

I'm really sure that Lily probably did forgive Snape. She probably just didn't want to be friends with a bigot who publicly insulted her, so she cut the contact. Snape revealed so much of his inner prejudice with his 'apology'. I think Lily just realized that he was never going to change and she would be in real danger sooner or later from his Death Eater friends and maybe even from Snape himself.

I agree. She may have forgiven Snape, we just don't know. But that doesn't mean she would have gone chasing after a friendship with a Death Eater. She learned the hard way that a Muggleborn cannot be friends with a Death Eater - really, that most people cannot be friends with a Death Eater. I think she let go of the hurt caused by her friend betraying her and forgave him, but that doesn't mean she would trust him again.


In her heart I'm sure she forgave him. I also (though most people don't agree with me) think there was a part of her who wanted to reconcille the friendship, hoping that he'd see the light and realize his views on muggleborns were wrong, but I don't think it would have been anything more than a hope.

She may have hoped for it, but I think that by the time Lily was in the Order, she had more important priorities than Snape. Unlike Snape, she moved on. I think she regretted what he had become, but I don't think she spent her time dwelling on it.



Oh I don't think Lily was unwanted at Hogwarts. She was a fully magical child who had to be taught how to use her natural gift for magic. I think every decent student and teacher at Hogwarts would have welcomed her. The danger lay in the bigotry and hatred of those few students who wanted to be Death Eaters and who grouped together to hurt and humilate the Muggleborn witches and wizards like Lily.

I agree. Most of the wizarding world accepted Muggleborns as a part of their community. It was a limited, but extremely narrow-minded and dangerous faction that didn't want Muggleborns to have rights, both at Hogwarts and in the wider world.
I think it would have been very hard for Lily to face that, especially to see her friend betraying her by becoming a part of it.


He probably never had a healthy, loving relationship in his life to base his desired relationship with Lily on so he probably repeated some of the behaviors he had seen in his own household of his father 'showing affection' to his mother which probably wasn't all together very loving but rather domineering or controlling. Even women who appear strong in every other way can fall victim to an abusive relationship and just never realize it until they're too deep to get out easily. But again, all my own opinion and a lot of people will probably be upset over it...

I think Lily did have the strength to get out of that unhealthy relationship - she had the self-respect and the courage to say enough was enough. She had the strength to expect respect from her friends.


In time, I think, like many talented people, she came to recognize that her own self-image was not primarily tied to what she could do for other people. My own feeling--and it has no particular basis in canon--is that this recognition freed her in a sense to fall fully in love with James. Without that recognition, I think she would have deflected much of her attention to those she felt deserved it.

I agree with this. I think that Lily did come to realise that her identity and worth was not bound up in other people. Not in their opinion of her, and not in what she could do for them. I think it was this awareness that enabled her to refuse to be an exception. It enabled her to see that she was a strong, capable witch, and that she did not need someone else's validation to tell her she was.

However, I think Lily had always had that independence - she tried out her magical skills, even though it worried her mother (until she knew what it was) and frightened Petunia. She befriended Snape, even though Petunia didn't like him, and remained friends with him, even though her friends disliked him. She stood up to the popular students. She stood her ground in arguments. IMO, Lily's awareness that she didn't need anyone to tell her she deserved to be a witch was a natural extension of this independence and strength.

However, I think Lily had always had that independence - she tried out her magical skills, even though it worried her mother (until she knew what it was) and frightened Petunia. She befriended Snape, even though Petunia didn't like him, and remained friends with him, even though her friends disliked him. She stood up to the popular students. She stood her ground in arguments. IMO, Lily's awareness that she didn't need anyone to tell her she deserved to be a witch was a natural extension of this independence and strength.

But Lily as a child seemed very hesitant about her magic at times. It was Severus who was always reassuring her when she had doubts about herself.

But Lily as a child seemed very hesitant about her magic at times. It was Severus who was always reassuring her when she had doubts about herself.

I don't think Lily had doubts about her abilities. I think it's shown that she had doubts about whether she would be accepted - whether it mattered that she was Muggleborn. I think that's different from doubting herself an dher abilities.

From Lily's letter to Sirius, I think we see that she may have been trying to laugh off how much Petunia's animosity hurt her. She was joking about the vase being horrible - but she did put it on display. She didn't hide it away, even though there was no chance of Petunia calling around for dinner.


I agree with this. :agree: That letter, to me, gave us a snippet of an insight into how Lily dealt with some rather upsetting circumstances etc in her life, Petunia being a major one of them. In my opinion she does, as you said, have a tendancy to brush things off rather quickly and try to turn it into something laughable perhaps even for fear of showing her true feelings. This could be an effect of being Muggleborn; I think that was a private, almost constant insecurity of hers that heightened when the War began- she tried to display a persona of someone with no weaknesses whatsoever to try and deal with that fear.

Just my interpretation, of course. :)

I don't think that's a universal trait--recalling our bad reviews more than our good ones--but I do think Lily would have possessed it. I get a glimmer of some insecurity there; I don't have the books handy, but I definitely got that impression, and I think that bad reviews stick out more to someone like that. Her parents were proud--or at least Petunia liked to say--but one does crave peer approval at that age.

While it may not be a universal trait I do think Lily possessed it to some extent. I think as a young girl it was displayed in her insecurities and as she grew up she would have used them as fuel to feed her fire, once she realized that other people's opinions of her abilities didn't mean she didn't have abilities. I think part of her strength came from her realization that she could rise above the people trying to bully her.

And with that in mind, I think it's useful to remember that that awful boy (Petunia's words) was the first person she could really talk about that world with. Whatever else he might have been or done, that short time before the first train to Hogwarts would have been worth a lot in her eyes. Maybe that's why she was Sorted Gryffindor; maybe anyone else would have dropped a nascent Death Eater, no matter the circumstances.

I think her pre-exisitng (pre-hogwarts) relationship with Snape was partly why it took her so long to see that they were growing apart and that they couldn't remain friends.

In time, I think, like many talented people, she came to recognize that her own self-image was not primarily tied to what she could do for other people. My own feeling--and it has no particular basis in canon--is that this recognition freed her in a sense to fall fully in love with James. Without that recognition, I think she would have deflected much of her attention to those she felt deserved it.

Nicely put. I think she and James would have never happened if she and Snape had never ended things and she could truely grow past that relationship. I think, also, with the space from Snape that she gained she might have realized how unfairly she had treated James and at least been open to the possibility of apologizing for her behaviour towards him - even though some of it might have been deserved - and what ended up happening instead was her discovering that they were very compatible and attracted to each other to boot.

I don't think that Lily's friends disliked Snape because of House rivalries or his lack of hygiene. I think they disliked him for the very same reason that Lily disliked Mulciber and Avery - they were dangerous, a bad influence. Lily feared that Mulciber and Avery would lead Snape down the wrong path. Lily's friends probably feared that Snape would do that to Lily.
I don't think Ron disliked Luna, I think he considered her eccentric, and he didn't understand her unusual ways.

agree.

Lily may have forgiven Snape while she was still alive, we simply don't know. Forgiveness does not mean letting someone dangerous back into your life so they can hurt you again. For example, you (general) could forgive the person who mugged you, but that doesn't mean you'd give them your wallet and ask them to get your groceries. In the same way, Lily forgiving Snape doesn't mean she would want a friendship with him again. It doesn't mean she would put her family, herself and the Order at risk for the sake of a friendship with a Death Eater. IMO, forgiveness changes the person who forgives, it doesn't change the person who is forgiven. If Lily did forgive Snape, it doesn't mean she would have put back on the scales over her eyes, as MsJPotter calls them, that she shed at sixteen.

...She may have forgiven Snape, we just don't know. But that doesn't mean she would have gone chasing after a friendship with a Death Eater. She learned the hard way that a Muggleborn cannot be friends with a Death Eater - really, that most people cannot be friends with a Death Eater. I think she let go of the hurt caused by her friend betraying her and forgave him, but that doesn't mean she would trust him again.


There's also a difference between hoping for a reconcilliation and actually getting one. I think Lily would have hoped Snape would see the error of his ways and that he would switch sides or leave LV, but I don't think she thought it would actually happen nor would she accept his friendship again while he was still tied to everything she stood against.

She may have hoped for it, but I think that by the time Lily was in the Order, she had more important priorities than Snape. Unlike Snape, she moved on. I think she regretted what he had become, but I don't think she spent her time dwelling on it.

Agreed. I think she moved past him (Snape) but I do think she would always regret how things turned out.


I think Lily did have the strength to get out of that unhealthy relationship - she had the self-respect and the courage to say enough was enough. She had the strength to expect respect from her friends.

Yes, I think she did, too, and I think she started removing herself from that relationship when Snape called her a mudblood. I think that was the kick in the pants for her - initially I think she was shocked and hurt by it but I also think that she had a couple hours of hard reflection on their relationship that led her her not acceptin Snape's apology. I don't think it was a 'he just called me a mudblood! I'm never going to be his friend again' type thought process, I think it took a little while for her to come to that conclusion. You forgive your friends a lot of things but I think Lily came to realize that she couldn't forgive Snape any more.

I agree with this. I think that Lily did come to realise that her identity and worth was not bound up in other people. Not in their opinion of her, and not in what she could do for them. I think it was this awareness that enabled her to refuse to be an exception. It enabled her to see that she was a strong, capable witch, and that she did not need someone else's validation to tell her she was.

However, I think Lily had always had that independence - she tried out her magical skills, even though it worried her mother (until she knew what it was) and frightened Petunia. She befriended Snape, even though Petunia didn't like him, and remained friends with him, even though her friends disliked him. She stood up to the popular students. She stood her ground in arguments. IMO, Lily's awareness that she didn't need anyone to tell her she deserved to be a witch was a natural extension of this independence and strength.

I agree more with your first paragraph's statement that she 'came to realize' this about herself. I think she did possess great indepenfance and skill but I think she grew into this realization rather than showing up to hogwarts with this kind of belief in herself. I agree that she always had an independant streak, but I think it was tempered by insecurities for at least a couple years. Everyone wants to be accepted and I think she truely came into her own once she stopped seeking acceptance from others.

From the what if thread:

It was Lily's choice to refuse to step aside.

Voldemort gave her that choice, at Snape's request. JK is pretty clear about the difference between Lily & James' sacrifices.

Snape did something evil in passing on the prophecy. He did something selfish in hoping for Lily to be spared and lose her family. If Snape had gotten what he wished for, Lily would have stepped aside, watched her family die, and flounced off into the comforting arms of a Death Eater.

But what bearing does his selfishness & evilness have on the functions of magical law with regard to sacrificial protection? Selfish or not, how would Lily's death cast magical protection onto Harry without Snape's request to Voldemort?

Lily did not know that refusing to step aside would save her child.
But "not knowing" is not what causes her death to cast magical protection onto Harry.

She didn't want to watch Harry die
Neither did James. Not wanting your child to die is not what makes a death cast magical protection.

- she wasn't going to do what Voldemort (and Snape) wanted of her.

I don't think Voldemort wanted her to step aside. Only Snape wanted that. And still, "refusing to watch" someone die is not what makes a death cast magical protection on any given person.

If we're going to give Snape credit for that, we should also give Voldemort credit for Harry's survival - he was the one who offered Lily the chance to step aside.

He would not have done so were it not for Snape. It was Snape's idea, not Voldemort's.

If he'd just killed her without saying anything, her sacrifice wouldn't have saved Harry, either.

And he would have killed her without saying anything, were it not for Snape, wouldn't you agree?


If Snape gets credit under those terms, then so does Voldemort.

Under my terms, Voldemort does not get credit, because the desire to spare Lily came from someone else's heart, not from his own.

Both wanted Lily to do something she had no intention of doing.

So Voldemort wanted her to step aside? You'd think that being in the position to decide whether she lived or died, that he would simply spare her life if he really wanted her to live :hmm: I dunno, something tells me that Voldemort did not care whether she stepped out of the way -- and in my book, that's very different from someone who would desperately desire her to step out of the way. Like night & day, actually.

Both had entirely selfish reasons for putting Lily in the position where her sacrifice could save her son.

I call that poetic justice in Voldemort's case :D

But not so much with Snape. Because there's also the theory that Snape wouldn't have fallen in love with her if she hadn't shown him true kindness & friendship in their youth. So I would make the case that Lily did ultimately save Harry's life, by caring about Snape when no one else did. I think that's genius way to set up the story.

Voldemort gave her that choice, at Snape's request. JK is pretty clear about the difference between Lily & James' sacrifices.

But Lily made the choice. She didn't do what Snape wanted. Also, Voldemort considered moving Lily out of the way, which would have been in keeping with Snape's request. Voldemort needn't have offered Lily the choice - he could have just Stunned her out of the way and then killed Harry. Giving Snape his request.
Snape didn't ask Voldemort to give Lily a choice. He asked Voldemort to let Lily live.


But what bearing does his selfishness & evilness have on the functions of magical law with regard to sacrificial protection? Selfish or not, how would Lily's death cast magical protection onto Harry without Snape's request to Voldemort?

That was Lily's choice. Not Snape's. Snape's choice would have been for Lily to step aside and lose her child.


Neither did James. Not wanting your child to die is not what makes a death cast magical protection.

No. But Voldemort didn't have to offer Lily the choice. He could have just Stunned her, thus keeping his promise to Snape, sparing Lily. If Snape gets credit for asking for Lily to be spared, then surely, Voldemort should also get credit for offering Lily the choice, rather than just Stunning her the moment he entered the room.

I don't think Voldemort wanted her to step aside. Only Snape wanted that. And still, "refusing to watch" someone die is not what makes a death cast magical protection on any given person.

He offered her the chance to step aside. He didn't have to - he could have just Stunned her. And it was Lily's refusal to watch her son die which saved him - given the choice, she chose to die rather than watch her child be murdered. Lily chose to refuse to watch her child die - that is what saved him.

He would not have done so were it not for Snape. It was Snape's idea, not Voldemort's.

Snape asked Voldemort to spare Lily. I doubt very much he anticipated that Voldemort would ask her to choose between her child and herself. Snape was probably anticipating that Lily would be Stunned or shoved aside. Even Snape would know that Lily would not want to watch her child die. Giving Lily the choice was Voldemort's idea, not Snape's.


And he would have killed her without saying anything, were it not for Snape, wouldn't you agree?

Oh, he would but either way, she wouldn't have stepped aside to present her son as a target. And Voldemort didn't have to ask her to step aside - he could have kept his reward for Snape by Stunning Lily.


Under my terms, Voldemort does not get credit, because the desire to spare Lily came from someone else's heart, not from his own.

But it was Voldemort's offer. If Snape gets credit for doing something disgusting that good came from, then so does Voldemort.

So Voldemort wanted her to step aside? You'd think that being in the position to decide whether she lived or died, that he would simply spare her life if he really wanted her to live :hmm: I dunno, something tells me that Voldemort did not care whether she stepped out of the way -- and in my book, that's very different from someone who would desperately desire her to step out of the way. Like night & day, actually.

I think Voldemort didn't care either way. But, as I said before, he didn't have to offer her the choice. He could have done as Snape requested by Stunning Lily. He offered her a choice - I very very much doubt that's what Snape had in mind. And desiring Lily to step aside and watch her child be murdered would be utterly callous, IMO. If Snape had his wish, Lily wouldn't be given that choice, she would have been shoved aside, to make certain that she would live.

I call that poetic justice in Voldemort's case :D

But not so much with Snape. Because there's also the theory that Snape wouldn't have fallen in love with her if she hadn't shown him true kindness & friendship in their youth. So I would make the case that Lily did ultimately save Harry's life, by caring about Snape when no one else did. I think that's genius way to set up the story.

Oh, I think there's poetic justice when it comes to Snape, too. He passed on the prophecy, not caring one bit who suffered. Not caring who was murdered, not caring who was left devastated and grieving because of his information. And he ended up as the architect of his own grief. He was one of the people left grieving. Someone he loved was one of the victims of his own callousness. I call that poetic justice.

Lily saved Harry's life by refusing to step aside when she had been offered a chance to live. It was an immensely brave thing to do, and it was the reason that Harry survived.

But Lily made the choice. She didn't do what Snape wanted. Also, Voldemort considered moving Lily out of the way, which would have been in keeping with Snape's request. Voldemort needn't have offered Lily the choice - he could have just Stunned her out of the way and then killed Harry. Giving Snape his request.
Snape didn't ask Voldemort to give Lily a choice. He asked Voldemort to let Lily live.


Snape made the choice to risk his own life by asking Voldemort to spare her.
Voldemort made the choice to ask Lily to step aside, rather than stunning her.
Lily made the choice not to step aside, once the offer was made.

Lily's choice was made out of unselfish love for her son.
Snape's was made out of love for Lily, and not considering James and Harry.
Voldemort's was perhaps as a reward to Snape for delivering the prophecy, but Voldemort didn't care about anyone involved, or he would have stunned Lily instead.

While Lily's actions may have shown the purest, most unselfish love. all of them played a part in Harry's survival that night. None of them knew what the consequences of their choices would be, IMHO.

But Lily made the choice.

But Lily doesn't have a choice to make without Snape. I thought JK made that perfectly clear (http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-1.htm):

ES: This is one of my burning questions since the third book - why did Voldemort offer Lily so many chances to live? Would he actually have let her live?

JKR: Mmhm.

ES: Why?

JKR: [silence] Can't tell you. But he did offer, you're absolutely right. Don't you want to ask me why James's death didn't protect Lily and Harry? There’s your answer, you've just answered your own question...........
.........Do you see what I mean? .......
........ He had no - he wasn't given a choice


Voldemort was never going to walk into Godric's Hollow and give her the choice to stand aside & live. Snape knew he was going there to kill them all, and that's why he asked Voldemort to spare her life. So even if you want to say that giving her the choice to step aside was Voldemort's idea -- I think you must still acknowledge that it only happened because Snape asked him to spare her.

As I see it, Snape is the prime mover (first cause) in this situation. If he doesn't tell Voldemort the prophecy, nothing happens. If he doesn't ask Voldemort to spare Lily's life, the AK never rebounds, and there is no story.

I'm not actually clear what the point of this discussion is supposed to be. Lily had a choice, and she made her choice. What Lily decided to do was 100% Lily. Voldemort gave her the choice, but it wasn't with the intention of helping her do what she wanted to do. Voldemort often structured his murders like they were a choice for his victims, in my opinion-- like with Harry in the forest or with Neville at the battle of Hogwarts, where Voldemort offered bargains along with the attempted murders. Snape tried to bargain for Lily's life with Voldemort, but again that had nothing to do with helping Lily do what she wanted to do. Lily wasn't aware of their motives, beyond their general preserve-Voldemort-and-carry-out-Death-Eater-agenda motives, which I think were very far from her motives to fight Voldemort and the Death Eaters and protect her family. I think Lily's actions tell about Lily's character, and the sacrifices she was willing to make to achieve what was important to her-- protecting her world and her family.

If this is about what Lily would think about those other people's role in providing her with a choice, my opinion is that she wouldn't think much of them. Voldemort sowed misery and death wherever he went, and if the cruel choice he offered Lily ended up backfiring on him, I think she would feel he deserved that bit of poetic justice. Lily had told Snape years earlier that she wasn't impressed with being his exception, so I can't think why she would be okay with his request to Voldemort to spare her for Snape while her family was murdered.

Snape made the choice to risk his own life by asking Voldemort to spare her.
Voldemort made the choice to ask Lily to step aside, rather than stunning her.
Lily made the choice not to step aside, once the offer was made.

Lily's choice was made out of unselfish love for her son.
Snape's was made out of love for Lily, and not considering James and Harry.
Voldemort's was perhaps as a reward to Snape for delivering the prophecy, but Voldemort didn't care about anyone involved, or he would have stunned Lily instead.

While Lily's actions may have shown the purest, most unselfish love. all of them played a part in Harry's survival that night. None of them knew what the consequences of their choices would be, IMHO.

Lily's choice also ended up with Harry in the hands of less appropriate parents - it was a mother's love, though beautiful there is selfishness in this as well. We all love because it is of importance to us and that is where the selfishness lies.

Lily's brain, a mother's brain, says: "I want my son to live. I don't want to see my son die. I don't want to cry by my son's tombstone.

Take me instead."

This is a completely human reaction, just as human as "don't kill me" would be. And it is also just as human as "don't kill the woman I love". The outcome of a wish may be more or less selfish than the other, but all wishes are based upon one's own will, which always contains a little selfishness.

What most people consider unselfish is when the selfish will is used in a way that is positive for someone else. And in this, both Snape and Lily were being unselfish since they both wanted another person to stay alive.

Lily's choice also ended up with Harry in the hands of less appropriate parents - it was a mother's love, though beautiful there is selfishness in this as well. We all love because it is of importance to us and that is where the selfishness lies.

Lily's brain, a mother's brain, says: "I want my son to live. I don't want to see my son die. I don't want to cry by my son's tombstone.

Take me instead."

This is a completely human reaction, just as human as "don't kill me" would be. And it is also just as human as "don't kill the woman I love". The outcome of a wish may be more or less selfish than the other, but all wishes are based upon one's own will, which always contains a little selfishness.

What most people consider unselfish is when the selfish will is used in a way that is positive for someone else. And in this, both Snape and Lily were being unselfish since they both wanted another person to stay alive.

The major difference I see is that Lily bargained with her own life, which was her own to bargain with, and Snape bargained with Lily's and James's and Harry's lives, which were not his to bargain with. Lily's love for her family and her principles was always backed up with a willingness to fight and sacrifice if it were needed.

That was Lily's choice. Not Snape's. Snape's choice would have been for Lily to step aside and lose her child.

I really don't think that's canonical, i.e. that Snape actively wished Lily to step aside and lose her own child. :huh: But this is not the thread to expand on this further. I've addressed a similar point in the Snape thread.

Lily saved Harry's life by refusing to step aside when she had been offered a chance to live. It was an immensely brave thing to do, and it was the reason that Harry survived.

I agree that Lily's bravery gets all the credits. :cool:

Lily's choice also ended up with Harry in the hands of less appropriate parents - it was a mother's love, though beautiful there is selfishness in this as well.

But it wasn't the dead Lily's fault that Petunia and Vernon were such dreadful guardians. :) Any normal person might reasonably expect that their own sister would care for their child without resentment and cruelty. :huh:

Lily's brain, a mother's brain, says: "I want my son to live. I don't want to see my son die. I don't want to cry by my son's tombstone.

Take me instead."

This is a completely human reaction, just as human as "don't kill me" would be. And it is also just as human as "don't kill the woman I love". The outcome of a wish may be more or less selfish than the other, but all wishes are based upon one's own will, which always contains a little selfishness.

Well .. begging a psychopath not to kill you is a completely human reaction, certainly. :) But being prepared to sacrifice your own life in place of your child's is both the action of a normal, loving mother and selfless. :cool:

I don't see how Snape could bargain with his own life at this point? "No, master, kill me instead!" Why would Voldemort kill one of his own men? He also knew that if he tried to stop Voldemort, he would just die among them.

Which is precisely why I don't see that Lily's deal with Voldemort and Snape's deal with Voldemort are similar.

I think there are several layers involved here with Lily's sacrifice. She acted out of a mother's love, so was motivated by her feelings, but that's not the only consideration. Other characters act out of love in the series: Narcissa goes to Snape and tries to get him to commit murder to save her son; Atticus Carrow wants to frame the Ravenclaw students for calling Voldemort in order to save his sister. I think other things that need to be weighed are the consideration of the person one is saving, and the price that is being paid, and the morality of one's actions.

In Lily's case, it is my opinion that she is fulfilling her duty. Harry is underage, and she is his parent. She is supposed to protect him until he is old enough to protect himself. So I see her actions not just as selfishly indulging her feelings, but of being responsible.

She offers her own life. That is very different than offering someone else's life, in my opinion. As Sirius Black said, some things are worth dying for.

And the big one is morality. Lily decided to live her life in a certain way. The reason Voldemort is there is because she qualifies as the Prophesy Baby's mother. She has already defied the Dark lord three times. At age sixteen she declared her choice to go on a path that opposed what Voldemort stood for. She joined the Order. She made moral choices that lead to who she was. In my opinion these choices influenced events, and also helped shape her son into the moral person he became. I think it is impossible to excise who she was as a moral person from the choices she made, including the choice not to stand aside and watch her son murdered.

Snape made the choice to risk his own life by asking Voldemort to spare her.
Voldemort made the choice to ask Lily to step aside, rather than stunning her.
Lily made the choice not to step aside, once the offer was made.

How, exactly, was it a risk? Voldemort liked to boast about rewarding his followers. Sparing Lily could easily have been Snape's reward for bringing Voldemort the prophecy. Voldemort killed his followers if they were of no further use to him, or if they were more useful dead, or if they'd betrayed him. A request for a prize wasn't going to get Snape killed. Lily's choice is the only one I credit with saving Harry.


Lily's choice was made out of unselfish love for her son.
Snape's was made out of love for Lily, and not considering James and Harry.
Voldemort's was perhaps as a reward to Snape for delivering the prophecy, but Voldemort didn't care about anyone involved, or he would have stunned Lily instead.

Which would have been what Snape had in mind. Lily, Stunned, rather than given a choice. Who knows, perhaps Voldemort got some sick enjoyment out of offering Lily that choice, imagining that perhaps she would step aside.

While Lily's actions may have shown the purest, most unselfish love. all of them played a part in Harry's survival that night. None of them knew what the consequences of their choices would be, IMHO.

Lily is the only one I credit. I don't give people credit when their misdeeds have unexpected good consequences. Therefore, I don't give Snape or Voldemort praise for their part in Harry's survival. Lily saved Harry, and nobody else. Voldemort actively wanted Harry dead, and Snape would have preferred to see Harry dead.

But Lily doesn't have a choice to make without Snape. I thought JK made that perfectly clear (http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-1.htm):

Without Snape's callousness in passing on the prophecy, Lily wouldn't have had to make that choice. The prophecy meant that some parent was going to be left standing between Voldemort and their son.

Voldemort was never going to walk into Godric's Hollow and give her the choice to stand aside & live. Snape knew he was going there to kill them all, and that's why he asked Voldemort to spare her life. So even if you want to say that giving her the choice to step aside was Voldemort's idea -- I think you must still acknowledge that it only happened because Snape asked him to spare her.

And Lily could only save Harry because Voldemort gave her the choice. Doesn't mean I'm going to praise Vodlemort for it, or credit him with giving power to Lily's sacrifice.

As I see it, Snape is the prime mover (first cause) in this situation. If he doesn't tell Voldemort the prophecy, nothing happens. If he doesn't ask Voldemort to spare Lily's life, the AK never rebounds, and there is no story.

Snape didn't ask Voldemort to give Lily a choice. Even Snape, with his warped perspective, would have known that Lily wouldn't willingly let her child die. Snape was probably hoping and expecting for Lily to be Stunned or otherwise moved aside by Voldemort.
If Voldemort had not given Lily a choice, but instead Stunned her, (as Snape wanted) Harry would have died, so also no story. If Lily had stepped aside, 9as Snape would have preferred) Harry would have died, and Lily would probably have been a prisoner kept by Voldemort Also, no story.
Or, a darker, quite twisted story.

I'm not actually clear what the point of this discussion is supposed to be. Lily had a choice, and she made her choice. What Lily decided to do was 100% Lily. Voldemort gave her the choice, but it wasn't with the intention of helping her do what she wanted to do.

I agree. Voldemort or Snape certainly didn't care about helping Lily to protect her son. Lily's decision was fully her own. Lily's love in refusing to watch her child die protected him. Her courage in defying Voldemort one last time made her death into a protective sacrifice.

Voldemort often structured his murders like they were a choice for his victims, in my opinion-- like with Harry in the forest or with Neville at the battle of Hogwarts, where Voldemort offered bargains along with the attempted murders. Snape tried to bargain for Lily's life with Voldemort, but again that had nothing to do with helping Lily do what she wanted to do.

That's a good point. He liked to play games with his victims. Dumbledore comments on Bellatrix playing with her food - we see Voldemort doing the very same. It's the same when he turns on his own followers - he dangles the Sword of Damocles above Draco's neck for a year to punish Lucius, rather than directly killing any of the Malfoys as punishment. And in addition to your example, Voldemort gave the same choice to all the fighters at the battle - surrender or die. Do what Voldemort wants or die.
Lily chose to protect what she held dear - not to play Voldemort's game, or Snape's, for that matter.


Lily wasn't aware of their motives, beyond their general preserve-Voldemort-and-carry-out-Death-Eater-agenda motives, which I think were very far from her motives to fight Voldemort and the Death Eaters and protect her family. I think Lily's actions tell about Lily's character, and the sacrifices she was willing to make to achieve what was important to her-- protecting her world and her family.


I agree. Lily's intentions, and those of any of the DEs were worlds apart.

If this is about what Lily would think about those other people's role in providing her with a choice, my opinion is that she wouldn't think much of them. Voldemort sowed misery and death wherever he went, and if the cruel choice he offered Lily ended up backfiring on him, I think she would feel he deserved that bit of poetic justice.

I agree. Lily would not at all be impressed with someone asking for her life in exchange for her child's. Lily loved her son, and would be disgusted at those who wished him dead, or were willing to see him dead for personal gain.

Lily had told Snape years earlier that she wasn't impressed with being his exception, so I can't think why she would be okay with his request to Voldemort to spare her for Snape while her family was murdered.

Excellent point. Lily refused to be Snape's exception when it came to racist slurs. I don't know why she'd be impressed or grateful to be his exception when it came to murder. When it came to sacrificing her family and wanting her spared. Why would Lily be grateful that Snape wanted her alive, but her family dead? It's in complete contradiction with everything we know about Lily.

Lily's choice also ended up with Harry in the hands of less appropriate parents - it was a mother's love, though beautiful there is selfishness in this as well. We all love because it is of importance to us and that is where the selfishness lies.

Lily's brain, a mother's brain, says: "I want my son to live. I don't want to see my son die. I don't want to cry by my son's tombstone.

Lily wanted her son to live and to be able to grow up. I don't think that's selfish. Lily was willing to die rather than step aside and watch the murder of her child. I don't think that's selfish. Selfish would be doing what Snape wanted, and stepping aside, forgetting her family and waltzing off into the sunset with the criminal who had destroyed her family.

What most people consider unselfish is when the selfish will is used in a way that is positive for someone else. And in this, both Snape and Lily were being unselfish since they both wanted another person to stay alive.

Snape was being selfish. He wanted Lily alive, but didn't care about her feelings - he didn't care about the grief she would feel if her family were murdered. I don't see how it's automatically unselfish to not want someone to be murdered. Snape didn't want Lily to be murdered, but he was willing to see anyone else murdered. That's not unselfish, that's deeply, incredibly selfish. Once again, he was playing exceptions. Is Lucius Malfoy unselfish when he doesn't want his son murdered, even though he is willing to kill other peoples' children?

The major difference I see is that Lily bargained with her own life, which was her own to bargain with, and Snape bargained with Lily's and James's and Harry's lives, which were not his to bargain with. Lily's love for her family and her principles was always backed up with a willingness to fight and sacrifice if it were needed.

I agree. Lily offered her own life - Snape offered the lives of Lily's family.

I don't see how Snape could bargain with his own life at this point? "No, master, kill me instead!" Why would Voldemort kill one of his own men? He also knew that if he tried to stop Voldemort, he would just die among them.

Well, that's just one of the perks of being a terrorist criminal, isn't it? That's the path Snape chose. Snape didn't have to be a part of that evil at all. He chose to be. Snape shouldn't have been bargaining with other peoples' lives, at all. Lily wasn't bargaining with anyone's life, except for her own.

Snape later put his life into the gamble (when he killed Dumbledore, this later on making it seem to Voldemort like he was the new master of the elder wand) and lost it. But that is another (part of the) story I guess...

Snape didn't know about the Elder Wand when he killed Dumbledore. I don't see it as a gamble on Snape's part from that perspective.

Well .. begging a psychopath not to kill you is a completely human reaction, certainly. :) But being prepared to sacrifice your own life in place of your child's is both the action of a normal, loving mother and selfless. :cool:

Most normal mothers are selfless. If they weren't, more kids would be thrown out through the windows from 7th floor. Babies would rain from the sky ;)

Which is precisely why I don't see that Lily's deal with Voldemort and Snape's deal with Voldemort are similar.

I think there are several layers involved here with Lily's sacrifice. She acted out of a mother's love, so was motivated by her feelings, but that's not the only consideration. Other characters act out of love in the series: Narcissa goes to Snape and tries to get him to commit murder to save her son; Atticus Carrow wants to frame the Ravenclaw students for calling Voldemort in order to save his sister. I think other things that need to be weighed are the consideration of the person one is saving, and the price that is being paid, and the morality of one's actions.

In Lily's case, it is my opinion that she is fulfilling her duty. Harry is underage, and she is his parent. She is supposed to protect him until he is old enough to protect himself. So I see her actions not just as selfishly indulging her feelings, but of being responsible.

She offers her own life. That is very different than offering someone else's life, in my opinion. As Sirius Black said, some things are worth dying for.

And the big one is morality. Lily decided to live her life in a certain way. The reason Voldemort is there is because she qualifies as the Prophesy Baby's mother. She has already defied the Dark lord three times. At age sixteen she declared her choice to go on a path that opposed what Voldemort stood for. She joined the Order. She made moral choices that lead to who she was. In my opinion these choices influenced events, and also helped shape her son into the moral person he became. I think it is impossible to excise who she was as a moral person from the choices she made, including the choice not to stand aside and watch her son murdered.

It is responsible to the individual, but not quite as responsible to society (since she didn't know he would get that until-17-protection) since a baby is more of a burden having to protect constantly while a grown-up can help to protect.

But yes, the fact that she always chose the right path is impressing and heroic.

Lily wanted her son to live and to be able to grow up. I don't think that's selfish. Lily was willing to die rather than step aside and watch the murder of her child. I don't think that's selfish. Selfish would be doing what Snape wanted, and stepping aside, forgetting her family and waltzing off into the sunset with the criminal who had destroyed her family.

Snape was being selfish. He wanted Lily alive, but didn't care about her feelings - he didn't care about the grief she would feel if her family were murdered. I don't see how it's automatically unselfish to not want someone to be murdered. Snape didn't want Lily to be murdered, but he was willing to see anyone else murdered. That's not unselfish, that's deeply, incredibly selfish. Once again, he was playing exceptions. Is Lucius Malfoy unselfish when he doesn't want his son murdered, even though he is willing to kill other peoples' children?

Lily didn't think of Harry's feelings, or the grief he would feel when he heard that his parents had been murdered.

And why would the life of a child be of higher value than the life of a young grown-up? They both have feelings, they both have several experiences left ahead of them. While the child has more ahead of it, the grown-up has more people to leave behind in sorrow.

I don't think he was willing to see anyone else murdered, I'd rather say he knew that Voldemort wouldn't spare any life if he had asked him to spare all. But I agree that if he really cared for Lily, he could've done her a favor and made Harry's time at Hogwarts a bit nicer :rotfl:

Lucius Malfoy was in a difficult position and it is a completely human reaction - horrible, but human (just look at how people act in war) - to let another family fall to save one's own. Even though I dislike his actions, I can understand them.

Well, that's just one of the perks of being a terrorist criminal, isn't it? That's the path Snape chose. Snape didn't have to be a part of that evil at all. He chose to be. Snape shouldn't have been bargaining with other peoples' lives, at all. Lily wasn't bargaining with anyone's life, except for her own.

A terrorist criminal? So the fact that he changed his mind completely and was one of few who actually did the right thing when he realized what this was, none of that matters at all? Then I could just go on and say that James was just a bully and Lily was nothing but a heartbreaker. People aren't one-sided, I can understand your dislike for some of Snape's actions but when people decide to let only one kind of actions speak for all that the person is, I get sad.

I really don't think that's canonical, i.e. that Snape actively wished Lily to step aside and lose her own child. :huh: But this is not the thread to expand on this further. I've addressed a similar point in the Snape thread.

Snape wanted Lily to live. Snape didn't care whether or not she lost her family. I think Snape would have been delighted and relieved had Lily chosen to step aside and save her own life. I don't think Harry's death would have been a blip on the radar for Snape in 1981. Snape wished for Voldemort to spare Lily - that means he would be oky with inflicting horrible grief on Lily.



But it wasn't the dead Lily's fault that Petunia and Vernon were such dreadful guardians. :) Any normal person might reasonably expect that their own sister would care for their child without resentment and cruelty. :huh:



It is responsible to the individual, but not quite as responsible to society (since she didn't know he would get that until-17-protection) since a baby is more of a burden having to protect constantly while a grown-up can help to protect.

Nor did she know that her baby would be protected by her death. And Lily's priority was her child.


Lily didn't think of Harry's feelings, or the grief he would feel when he heard that his parents had been murdered.

Lily was thinking of her fifteen month old son, and wanted him to live. She didn't want to die, but even more than that, she didn't want her baby to be murdered. She wasn't going to step aside and watch him die. She didn't know that her sacrifice would protect Harry. There was no way she could have known that Harry would be left to grow up without her. She was just refusing to abandon her child to a madman - and I don't see anything selfish in that.

And why would the life of a child be of higher value than the life of a young grown-up? They both have feelings, they both have several experiences left ahead of them. While the child has more ahead of it, the grown-up has more people to leave behind in sorrow.

Perhaps because many parents value the life of their child above their own. Perhaps because nobody can understand the pain of a parent losing a child.

I don't think he was willing to see anyone else murdered, I'd rather say he knew that Voldemort wouldn't spare any life if he had asked him to spare all. But I agree that if he really cared for Lily, he could've done her a favor and made Harry's time at Hogwarts a bit nicer :rotfl:

Snape was plainly willing to see people murdered - he joined the DEs, the most vicious and dangerous group of criminals in the wizarding world. They were murdering people for fun - I don't think Snape had a problem with murder. Unless he cared about the victim. I think he would have gladly seen Harry dead if it meant Lily was spared.

QUOTE]Lucius Malfoy was in a difficult position and it is a completely human reaction - horrible, but human (just look at how people act in war) - to let another family fall to save one's own. Even though I dislike his actions, I can understand them.[/QUOTE]

He wasn't trying to save his family when he planted the diary on Ginny, in order to kill students and discredit Arthur Weasley.



A terrorist criminal? So the fact that he changed his mind completely and was one of few who actually did the right thing when he realized what this was, none of that matters at all?

That is what Snape was. Finding oneself in danger from one's boss, people dying because of you - that's what happens when one joins something as depraved as the DEs. This is the point I was specifically responding to:

He also knew that if he tried to stop Voldemort, he would just die among them.

This is a consequence of Snape becoming a terrorist criminal. I did not say that was all he was. But at the time, that is what he was, and it was that choice which led to him experiencing the grief he was willing to visit upon others in his capacity as criminal. Having a boss that just might murder you is a "perk" of becoming a member of a violent criminal organisation. Tough luck for the criminals.

Then I could just go on and say that James was just a bully and Lily was nothing but a heartbreaker.

I'm sorry, but in what way was Lily a heartbreaker?

That is what Snape was. Finding oneself in danger from one's boss, people dying because of you - that's what happens when one joins something as depraved as the DEs.
I'm sorry, but in what way was Lily a heartbreaker?

Well, Lily broke Snape's heart and going by the logic that I get from your way of discussing and namecalling, the background and reasons don't matter and what she did after that didn't matter either. If you believe I've failed to understand you, you are welcome to prove me wrong.

It is responsible to the individual, but not quite as responsible to society (since she didn't know he would get that until-17-protection) since a baby is more of a burden having to protect constantly while a grown-up can help to protect.

I think it an important theme of the series. In fact, it is the first epigraph of Deathly Hallows: "There is a cure in the house [....] Bless the children, give them triumph now."

I would say that within the Harry Potter universe, how children are treated is both an important measurement for the morals of an individual and for the moral integrity of a society. I think so because it is presented as one of the major differences between the supporters of Voldemort and what Voldemort wants to model Wizarding society into, those that oppose Voldemort and his ideals.

Lucius Malfoy gives a dangerous object to an eleven year old in order to release a monster that has killed before into a school full of children. Death Eaters imperius a child into attempting to murder his grandparents. Greyback bites children-- in DH, one child werewolf bite victim dies from the attack. Children are tortured at Hogwarts, or kidnapped to make their parents comply. The society the Death Eaters are building has no reguard for the lives of children.


And why would the life of a child be of higher value than the life of a young grown-up? They both have feelings, they both have several experiences left ahead of them. While the child has more ahead of it, the grown-up has more people to leave behind in sorrow.

I think Hermione summed it up best for the Good Guys in the Department of Mysteries in DH when she said "You can't hurt a baby!"

Why? I would say it is because an adult has the capacity to make choices and to know the consequences of those choices. A baby hasn't developed enough for that. Children and teens are on there way, but it takes a while for the brain to fully form. In other words, adults are responsible for their actions because they realize fully what those actions mean. In my opinion that's why an adult has both the right and the responsibility to protect children.

I think Lily's actions sum it up well. When she was an adult and Harry was a baby, she put herself between him and danger. She made a choice. She recognized that he was a baby and not old enough to make a choice. Harry was her responsibility to protect.

Years later, Harry was an adult. He conjured Lily from within himself in "The Forest again". This time he was making a choice, and she supported him, because I believe she could see he was an adult who recognized that some things were worth dying for, just as she had.

I think it an important theme of the series. In fact, it is the first epigraph of Deathly Hallows: "There is a cure in the house [....] Bless the children, give them triumph now."

I would say that within the Harry Potter universe, how children are treated is both an important measurement for the morals of an individual and for the moral integrity of a society. I think so because it is presented as one of the major differences between the supporters of Voldemort and what Voldemort wants to model Wizarding society into, those that oppose Voldemort and his ideals.

Lucius Malfoy gives a dangerous object to an eleven year old in order to release a monster that has killed before into a school full of children. Death Eaters imperius a child into attempting to murder his grandparents. Greyback bites children-- in DH, one child werewolf bite victim dies from the attack. Children are tortured at Hogwarts, or kidnapped to make their parents comply. The society the Death Eaters are building has no reguard for the lives of children.




I think Hermione summed it up best for the Good Guys in the Department of Mysteries in DH when she said "You can't hurt a baby!"

Why? I would say it is because an adult has the capacity to make choices and to know the consequences of those choices. A baby hasn't developed enough for that. Children and teens are on there way, but it takes a while for the brain to fully form. In other words, adults are responsible for their actions because they realize fully what those actions mean. In my opinion that's why an adult has both the right and the responsibility to protect children.

I think Lily's actions sum it up well. When she was an adult and Harry was a baby, she put herself between him and danger. She made a choice. She recognized that he was a baby and not old enough to make a choice. Harry was her responsibility to protect.

Years later, Harry was an adult. He conjured Lily from within himself in "The Forest again". This time he was making a choice, and she supported him, because I believe she could see he was an adult who recognized that some things were worth dying for, just as she had.

I agree that it was good of Lily to take responsibility and I believe that if you can spare the life of a child without losing your own, you should do so. But when it comes to grown-up vs child, I don't believe one has more value than the other. It's like saying one is too old for the right to live once they're 18.

I think Lily's actions tell about Lily's character, and the sacrifices she was willing to make to achieve what was important to her-- protecting her world and her family.
To be fair though, I'm still not convinced that any of the Potters were behaving rationally that night. For example, and not a minor one, what was Lily's next move after refusing to stand aside?

I'm not criticizing Lily here. I've been in situations where I suspected my life was in the balance, and the normal rules of knowledge and prudence seem to fly out the window (hey, there's an idea... wait, babies can't ride brooms). What I am saying is that I never understood just why the Potters didn't appear to plan for other contingencies, like the one that transpired. Standing up to a murderer to protect your son is an unparalleled moment of strength and sacrifice, but it doesn't exactly protect him if that's the extent of your resistance.

ETA: I should point out that I must assume nobody in the world was aware of what would happen magically immediately following this moment.

I agree that it was good of Lily to take responsibility and I believe that if you can spare the life of a child without losing your own, you should do so. But when it comes to grown-up vs child, I don't believe one has more value than the other. It's like saying one is too old for the right to live once they're 18.

That's not really the point though. Nobody is saying the life of a baby is more important than that of an adult. (Although I would argue pretty strongly that the death of a young person is far more tragic than the peaceful death of an old person.) The point is that any adult with a sense of morality feels a duty to protect the young and the vulnerable who cannot defend themselves. That is part of a mother's instinctive desire to shield her child from harm.

What I am saying is that I never understood just why the Potters didn't appear to plan for other contingencies, like the one that transpired. Standing up to a murderer to protect your son is an unparalleled moment of strength and sacrifice, but it doesn't exactly protect him if that's the extent of your resistance.

This brings us back to the 'why didn't Lily Apparate with Harry?' issue, doesn't it?

I agree that it was good of Lily to take responsibility and I believe that if you can spare the life of a child without losing your own, you should do so. But when it comes to grown-up vs child, I don't believe one has more value than the other. It's like saying one is too old for the right to live once they're 18.

I don't think the Harry potter series is saying that adults don't have the right to live, I think the Harry Potter series is saying that adults have the right to make choices. Big choices, that involve life and death. Informed choices. The sort of choices that children can't really make yet, but are learning how to make.

Since I view the theme of choice as very important to the series, it makes sense to me that those who can make a choice about what is worth dying for are the ones who can choose to lay down their own lives. Playing god with someone else's life is another thing all together, especially the life of someone who hasn't matured enough to make an informed decision on what they think their life is worth and who hasn't yet made a choice on how they wish to use it. I don't think doing so would say anything good about the adult doing it.

I don't think the Harry potter series is saying that adults don't have the right to live, I think the Harry Potter series is saying that adults have the right to make choices. Big choices, that involve life and death. Informed choices. The sort of choices that children can't really make yet, but are learning how to make.

Since I view the theme of choice as very important to the series, it makes sense to me that those who can make a choice about what is worth dying for are the ones who can choose to lay down their own lives. Playing god with someone else's life is another thing all together, especially the life of someone who hasn't matured enough to make an informed decision on what they think their life is worth and who hasn't yet made a choice on how they wish to use it. I don't think doing so would say anything good about the adult doing it.

I understand your point. Still, how about the adult who has chosen how they wish to live their life? Is it actually their duty to give that up for one who hasn't?

Maybe we should just agree that it is a nice move but a choice that is up to the involved to make?

Well, Lily broke Snape's heart and going by the logic that I get from your way of discussing and namecalling, the background and reasons don't matter and what she did after that didn't matter either. If you believe I've failed to understand you, you are welcome to prove me wrong.

I'm not sure I'm reading your point correctly. Are you arguing that Lily was a "heartbreaker" because her thoughts and feelings didn't coincide with Snape's thought and feelings or with what Snape wanted her to think and feel? I wouldn't call that being a heartbreaker, I would call that being a human being, with independent thoughts and feelings. Nobody is obliged to return someone else's thoughts and feelings, and a person isn't a "heartbreaker" or in the wrong if they don't return someone's feelings. People are not objects to make someone else feel good, and Lily was not obliged to return Snape's feelings, just because he wanted her to.
As for Lily ending the friendship, I view that as getting out of an unhealthy friendship. Lily showed strength, self-respect and moral fibre in ending her friendship with Snape. Nobody is obliged to stay in a friendship with a budding criminal, nobody is obliged to stay in a friendship with a bigot who makes exceptions for their friend. It would be a demeaning position for Lily to be in - it would be like saying that she only had worth as a person and as a witch because Snape decided she had.


Lucius Malfoy gives a dangerous object to an eleven year old in order to release a monster that has killed before into a school full of children. Death Eaters imperius a child into attempting to murder his grandparents. Greyback bites children-- in DH, one child werewolf bite victim dies from the attack. Children are tortured at Hogwarts, or kidnapped to make their parents comply. The society the Death Eaters are building has no reguard for the lives of children.

Totally agree. The DEs don't care who they hurt or kill, as long as it isn't themselves or their loved ones. Adult or child, infant or elderly, it makes no difference to Voldemort and his followers. They didn't care that they were harming children - it benefitted them, so they saw no reason not to. This is the kind of depravity that Lily fought against.

I think Lily's actions sum it up well. When she was an adult and Harry was a baby, she put herself between him and danger. She made a choice. She recognized that he was a baby and not old enough to make a choice. Harry was her responsibility to protect.

I agree. Lily loved her child, and she saw it as her responsibility to look after him. Lily recognised that life was about responsibilities, not just rights. She and James had the responsibility of protecting their child, as he was not old enough to protect himself. She didn't have to remain in front of Harry - she could have stepped aside. But she chose not to, because she loved Harry and didn't want to watch him die. She didn't want to lose her beloved child. She didn't know that sacrificing her life would protect Harry, but she had no intention of sacrificing him to protect herself.

I agree that it was good of Lily to take responsibility and I believe that if you can spare the life of a child without losing your own, you should do so. But when it comes to grown-up vs child, I don't believe one has more value than the other. It's like saying one is too old for the right to live once they're 18.

I don't think anybody is saying that one is too old to live at 18. :hmm: Are you arguing that Lily should have stepped aside, because I'm not sure what you're suggesting.

To be fair though, I'm still not convinced that any of the Potters were behaving rationally that night. For example, and not a minor one, what was Lily's next move after refusing to stand aside?

There wasn't much she could do - she didn't have her wand. Perhaps she could have fought physically, put up some resistance, but after she had refused Voldemort's option, he killed her.

What I am saying is that I never understood just why the Potters didn't appear to plan for other contingencies, like the one that transpired.

Because they trusted their friend. They believed that someone they had known for years was trustworthy and wouldn't sell them out. They believed that there were only four people who knew that he was the Secret Keeper, and two of them were under the roof of Godric's Hollow.

Standing up to a murderer to protect your son is an unparalleled moment of strength and sacrifice, but it doesn't exactly protect him if that's the extent of your resistance.

Lily didn't have her wand, so she couldn't fight Voldemort off magically.


The point is that any adult with a sense of morality feels a duty to protect the young and the vulnerable who cannot defend themselves. That is part of a mother's instinctive desire to shield her child from harm.

I agree. I think there is a duty to protect those who cannot protect themselves, especially the young. Not all characters saw it this way, but Lily certainly did.

This brings us back to the 'why didn't Lily Apparate with Harry?' issue, doesn't it?

She didnt' have her wand on her - so she couldn't Apparate.


I don't think the Harry potter series is saying that adults don't have the right to live, I think the Harry Potter series is saying that adults have the right to make choices. Big choices, that involve life and death. Informed choices. The sort of choices that children can't really make yet, but are learning how to make.

Good point. Choices are a huge theme in the series, and I think that the characters' choices reflect on them. Some well, some poorly.

Since I view the theme of choice as very important to the series, it makes sense to me that those who can make a choice about what is worth dying for are the ones who can choose to lay down their own lives.
Playing god with someone else's life is another thing all together, especially the life of someone who hasn't matured enough to make an informed decision on what they think their life is worth and who hasn't yet made a choice on how they wish to use it. I don't think doing so would say anything good about the adult doing it.

I agree.

I understand your point. Still, how about the adult who has chosen how they wish to live their life? Is it actually their duty to give that up for one who hasn't?

Lily chose her path. She wanted nothing to do with the path of criminals like the DEs. She chose to live her life fighting them. What about choosing about other adults' lives? Does one have the right to do that? Lily didn't make the choice others would have wanted to make. I don't think anybody in the wizarding world would have begrudged Lily the choice she made to protect her child - apart from Voldemort and Snape. Plus Bellatrix and the other DEs who wound up in Azkaban.

Maybe we should just agree that it is a nice move but a choice that is up to the involved to make?

And Lily made her choice, as she was free to do so. I think her choice was amazing - so much love and courage and sincerity.

This brings us back to the 'why didn't Lily Apparate with Harry?' issue, doesn't it?

I don't think she could have. They seemed to have an anti-apparition charm on the house, because Voldemort apparated some distance away and had to walk to the house. It also seems like a logical bit of magical protection that any wizard would use. I don't recall any evidence of requiring a wand to apparate, so I don't think that's a factor.

She could have run out the back door or jumped out the window and apparated, but I think her instincts were to barricade herself at that point.

I don't think she could have. They seemed to have an anti-apparition charm on the house, because Voldemort apparated some distance away and had to walk to the house. It also seems like a logical bit of magical protection that any wizard would use. I don't recall any evidence of requiring a wand to apparate, so I don't think that's a factor.

She could have run out the back door or jumped out the window and apparated, but I think her instincts were to barricade herself at that point.

Perhaps there were anti-Apparation spells. According to Dumbledore in HBP, on the way to meeting Slughorn, many wizarding households do so as a precaution. It's likely that the Potters had them in place, in addition the the Fidelius charm.
But - in DH, when the trio were captured, Ron is described in Malfoy Manor as trying to Apparate without a wand. It's specifically mentioned that he was trying to do so without a wand. I think this would suggest that one needs a wand to Apparate. Obviously, Malfoy Manor would have spells in place to prevent people Apparating in or out, but we aren't told that Ron was trying to Apparate past security spells, we're told that he was trying to Apparate without a wand.

I'm not sure I'm reading your point correctly. Are you arguing that Lily was a "heartbreaker" because her thoughts and feelings didn't coincide with Snape's thought and feelings or with what Snape wanted her to think and feel? I wouldn't call that being a heartbreaker, I would call that being a human being, with independent thoughts and feelings. Nobody is obliged to return someone else's thoughts and feelings, and a person isn't a "heartbreaker" or in the wrong if they don't return someone's feelings. People are not objects to make someone else feel good, and Lily was not obliged to return Snape's feelings, just because he wanted her to.
As for Lily ending the friendship, I view that as getting out of an unhealthy friendship. Lily showed strength, self-respect and moral fibre in ending her friendship with Snape. Nobody is obliged to stay in a friendship with a budding criminal, nobody is obliged to stay in a friendship with a bigot who makes exceptions for their friend. It would be a demeaning position for Lily to be in - it would be like saying that she only had worth as a person and as a witch because Snape decided she had.


Here, you're reasoning differently from how you just did with Snape. You're looking at it from her point of view and looking at the other sides of the issue and this is exactly what I wish you would do with Snape's issue; That is my point.

I am not arguing that Lily did anything wrong when she chose not to be Snape's partner and I'm not saying that I think her choice to quit their friendship wasn't at least a bit deserved after that comment of his. My point was simply that it didn't seem to me like you looked as much into Snape's situation as you did with Lily's. That is an important thing to do before discussing a subject that is relevant to the very character, in my humble opinion...

And Lily made her choice, as she was free to do so. I think her choice was amazing - so much love and courage and sincerity.

This I can absolutely agree to.

I'm not sure I'm reading your point correctly. Are you arguing that Lily was a "heartbreaker" because her thoughts and feelings didn't coincide with Snape's thought and feelings or with what Snape wanted her to think and feel? I wouldn't call that being a heartbreaker, I would call that being a human being, with independent thoughts and feelings.

I think everyone at some point could be considered a heartbreaker - I think for Snape, if he considered his heart broken at the end of their frienship, than Lily was a heartbreaker. To the readers of the HP books, Lily was a girl who was standing up for herself and not so much of a heartbreaker because Snape didn't seem to act all that heartbroken, he seemed to just carry on with his life course of becoming a Death Eater. I think Snape, for Lily, might have been a heartbreaker in that he broke her heart by making such bad choices with his life that both hurt her personally (the ending of their friendship, calling her a mudblood, etc) and hurt the wider world with his criminal acts.

Bascially, being a heartbreaker is a subjective thing, each person has someone they consider to be a heartbreaker because that person has broken their heart. But to others that person wouldn't be a heartbreaker.


I don't think anybody is saying that one is too old to live at 18. :hmm: Are you arguing that Lily should have stepped aside, because I'm not sure what you're suggesting.

Without putting words into Westyane's mouth (or post, as it were), I think what he's saying, or at least my interpretation of what he's saying, is that a child's life is often valued more highly (by a parent, by society...) than an adult's life is and that because of the perceived higher value in that child's life the adult should sacrifice their own to save a child in danger. He disagrees with the perceived 'value system' imposed on an adult life versus a child's life and is arguing that all life is valuable whether you're two, twelve, twenty or fifty years old.

I agree with Pearl_Took that often the death of a child is more tragic than the death of an adult but that often an adult feels the need to protect a child from harm simply because that child doesn't have the ability to protect themselves.

There wasn't much she could do - she didn't have her wand. Perhaps she could have fought physically, put up some resistance, but after she had refused Voldemort's option, he killed her.

I agree that lily didn't have many options, in lieu of having a non-existent nor non-deployed contingency plan. What I find interesting is that she ran upstairs where she could be cornered in Harry's room rather than out the back door or something where she had a chance to at least make an escape. =^/

Because they trusted their friend. They believed that someone they had known for years was trustworthy and wouldn't sell them out. They believed that there were only four people who knew that he was the Secret Keeper, and two of them were under the roof of Godric's Hollow.

I agree that they trusted Sirius to keep the switch a secret and trusted Peter to keep the secret he had been entrusted with a secret. Basically it comes down to having trusted the wrong person.

In regards to the contingency plans I think two things: 1) they didn't have one (or any) because they had put full faith in Peter and Sirius, two people whom they thought they could trust 100%, and 2) they had a contingency plan but due to the nature of the attack on them they were unable to put said plan into motion. This contingency plan they might have had might have been for a situation where they knew Voldemort was coming and had a chance to flee or if they had had their wands on them rather than leaving them laying on the couch. The nature of Voldemort's attack caught them off guard and whatever plan they might have had to get away flew out the window (for some reason I have the image of a baby on a broom... why is that??) ;^P

Lily didn't have her wand, so she couldn't fight Voldemort off magically.

I always thought that there should have been a branch of magic specifically devoted to learning wandless magic for just such situations. Maybe it would have been too advanced for hogwarts since they're just learning non-verbal spells in the 6th year, but still, wizards seem to be handicapped by not having a wand. I would think there would be some trying to figure out a way to eliminate the wand as a magical crutch since it can so easily be taken away or broken.

Since I view the theme of choice as very important to the series, it makes sense to me that those who can make a choice about what is worth dying for are the ones who can choose to lay down their own lives.

I consider people who are capable of making informed, rational choices, rather than choices based soley on emotional reactions, as adults instead of using the arbitrary age cut off of 18. In this respect, I think Lily and James, though very young, were very much adults when the joined the order and when they got married. Harry, in OotP was not yet 'adult' enough to make the choice to join the Order since he was still very much making irrational and emotional decisions. I'm undecided about the twins, lol

Lily chose her path. She wanted nothing to do with the path of criminals like the DEs. She chose to live her life fighting them. What about choosing about other adults' lives? Does one have the right to do that?

Are you asking if lily had the right to choose to save another adult's life? I think in that situation the other adult's choices have to be considered, whether they are sacrificing their own life or are just going to be killed and not putting up resistence and whether the one doing the saving could forgive themself for not saving a life if given the opportunity. Adult-on-adult life saving is definitely more complicated. =^J

And Lily made her choice, as she was free to do so. I think her choice was amazing - so much love and courage and sincerity.

And yet love, courage, and sincerity is not what casts magical protection onto another person (or else James' sacrifice should have protected both Lily and Harry - wouldn't you say?)

Lily was free to make a choice -- a choice that was denied to James -- and the offering of that choice is the reason Harry survived (an offering which was not part of Voldemort's original plan, and never would have occurred if it wasn't for Snape).

As for how Lily would feel about the truth -- I don't know. But I would find it really sad if the afterlife turned out to be a place full of bitter angry people, unable to let go of the past & forgive others for their mistakes --- because then it would be just like Earth :relax:

To be fair though, I'm still not convinced that any of the Potters were behaving rationally that night. For example, and not a minor one, what was Lily's next move after refusing to stand aside?

She didn't have any. Her best hope was for Voldemort to take her up on the offer. She was essentially trying to bargain with him.

The Potters had no contingency plan for Voldemort showing up at their house without warning. Much is made of them not having their wands but it wouldn't have made any difference against Voldemort.

It is interesting though that James told her to take Harry and go. Did they have some plan which Lily forgot in her panic or was it just him hoping that she could somehow get away ? I'm thinking the second because he also mentions holding Voldemort off when he had no wand.

I hope someone asks Jo this question. I can understand the Potters not preparing for a betrayal but I think Dumbledore may have thought of that possibility. This is the sort of situation which you want to evaluate with cold hard logic.

This brings us back to the 'why didn't Lily Apparate with Harry?' issue, doesn't it?

Its highly likely that Voldemort would have put an anti-apparition jinx on the place if the place itself didn't have anti-apparition charms on it. Besides, I'm not sure the crushing sensation would be too good for a baby. What they needed was an extremely quick way to set up a portkey or even an emergency portkey. "In case of Voldemort, break glass and grab boot".


I always thought that there should have been a branch of magic specifically devoted to learning wandless magic for just such situations. Maybe it would have been too advanced for hogwarts since they're just learning non-verbal spells in the 6th year, but still, wizards seem to be handicapped by not having a wand. I would think there would be some trying to figure out a way to eliminate the wand as a magical crutch since it can so easily be taken away or broken.

IMO wandless magic would require you to be a powerful wizard/witch in the first place. I imagine doing wandless magic would be similar to using a wand that is not yours.

Here, you're reasoning differently from how you just did with Snape. You're looking at it from her point of view and looking at the other sides of the issue and this is exactly what I wish you would do with Snape's issue; That is my point. Sorry to stick my nose in, but I have been keeping up with the discussion, just had nothing to add. This is the Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis thread so there is absolutely nothing wrong with looking at anything in this thread from her point of view. I think that's what we should be doing. If you want to look at a situation from another character's point of view go to that character's thread instead.

And if you have a problem that involves thread logistics please contact a moderator instead of taking it to the thread yourselves.

Sorry to stick my nose in, but I have been keeping up with the discussion, just had nothing to add. This is the Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis thread so there is absolutely nothing wrong with looking at anything in this thread from her point of view. I think that's what we should be doing. If you want to look at a situation from another character's point of view go to that character's thread instead.

Even though I still believe it is important to consider both sides in a discussion (that is, no there's nothing wrong with looking at it from her point of view - it is rather important for the subject - but looking at both is necessary) that is regarding two persons and discussing their actions (also, using nicknames such as "terrorist" is rather cruel towards any character and their fans), I can definitely see your point. Please excuse my mistakes.

I am not arguing that Lily did anything wrong when she chose not to be Snape's partner and I'm not saying that I think her choice to quit their friendship wasn't at least a bit deserved after that comment of his. My point was simply that it didn't seem to me like you looked as much into Snape's situation as you did with Lily's. That is an important thing to do before discussing a subject that is relevant to the very character, in my humble opinion...

I'm exploring Lily's (often ignored) point of view, yes. And to be honest, if one person doesn't want a relationship, then that is it. No relationship. End of story. Nobody is entitled to a relationship with someone else no matter how much they want one. Lily did not do something wrong by not returning Snape's feelings. Nor did she do something wrong by getting out of a toxic friendship.



Bascially, being a heartbreaker is a subjective thing, each person has someone they consider to be a heartbreaker because that person has broken their heart. But to others that person wouldn't be a heartbreaker.

I don't think a person is a heartbreaker for daring to have their own feelings. I don't think a person is a heartbreaker just because they have the appalling nerve not to date someone who wants them. I consider that basic being a human being with feelings of one's own and not an object to make others better. I don't think a person is a heartbreaker for getting out of a harmful relationship - I consider that a very sensible, strong and admirable thing to do.

I always thought that there should have been a branch of magic specifically devoted to learning wandless magic for just such situations. Maybe it would have been too advanced for hogwarts since they're just learning non-verbal spells in the 6th year, but still, wizards seem to be handicapped by not having a wand. I would think there would be some trying to figure out a way to eliminate the wand as a magical crutch since it can so easily be taken away or broken.

I don't know if wandless magic is that much possible in the series. We don't see that much of it, apart from small examples, and these are from wizards who did still have their wands on their person - Quirrellmort conjuring ropes, and Dumbledore clapping to change the decorations in the Hall. I doubt there would be quite as much emphasis on wands if wandless magic was possible to a great extent.

Are you asking if lily had the right to choose to save another adult's life? I think in that situation the other adult's choices have to be considered, whether they are sacrificing their own life or are just going to be killed and not putting up resistence and whether the one doing the saving could forgive themself for not saving a life if given the opportunity. Adult-on-adult life saving is definitely more complicated. =^J

Especially if it involves sacrificing that other adult's child to save that adult.

And yet love, courage, and sincerity is not what casts magical protection onto another person (or else James' sacrifice should have protected both Lily and Harry - wouldn't you say?)

And if Lily had not had that courage, love and sincerity, she would have done exactly what Snape would have preferred, and witnessed the murder of her toddler. Lily made the choice. Lily chose her son over everyone and everything else. That was not down to Snape or Voldemort - that was Lily's choice. If one credits Snape for asking for Lily to be spared, then logically, one must also credit Voldemort for giving Lily the choice to step aside rather than just automatically Stunning or killing her.

Lily was free to make a choice -- a choice that was denied to James -- and the offering of that choice is the reason Harry survived (an offering which was not part of Voldemort's original plan, and never would have occurred if it wasn't for Snape).

Harry's survival was certainly not part of Snape's plan. Snape never asked Voldemort to give Lily a choice - he asked Voldemort to spare her. The decision to give Lily a choice in the matter was all down to Voldemort. Snape, for all his strange ideas of love, would have known that Lily would never stand aside and watch the murder of her child, much as he'd prefer that to Lily's death. The choice came from Voldemort. And incidentally, the danger would never have arisen either, if not for Snape.

As for how Lily would feel about the truth -- I don't know. But I would find it really sad if the afterlife turned out to be a place full of bitter angry people, unable to let go of the past & forgive others for their mistakes --- because then it would be just like Earth :relax:

Strange, how Lily is the one expected to forgive and let go and move on.

And, how Lily would feel about the truth came up in the "what if?" thread in a discussion on "what if Lily had survived that night in Godric's Hollow, and James and/or Harry hadn't?" Under those circumstances, I think it would be expecting a bit much to expect Lily to be the one to forgive and forget.

It is interesting though that James told her to take Harry and go. Did they have some plan which Lily forgot in her panic or was it just him hoping that she could somehow get away ? I'm thinking the second because he also mentions holding Voldemort off when he had no wand.


It could be either, the plan seems to have been to buy Lily a bit of time to get away - whether there was a pre-arranged plan or not.

Its highly likely that Voldemort would have put an anti-apparition jinx on the place if the place itself didn't have anti-apparition charms on it. Besides, I'm not sure the crushing sensation would be too good for a baby. What they needed was an extremely quick way to set up a portkey or even an emergency portkey. "In case of Voldemort, break glass and grab boot".


A Portkey would have been useful. But, I'm thinking that they didn't expect to be betrayed, they didn't expect to need an emergency Portkey.

(also, using nicknames such as "terrorist" is rather cruel towards any character and their fans), I can definitely see your point. Please excuse my mistakes.

That is what the DEs were. There is no nice name for that group of criminals. They were racist terrorist criminals who wanted to overthrow the government, oppress the population and commit ethnic cleansing. I think terrorist is an accurate description for what they were. Any name for that organisation is a thousand times less cruel than that organisation itself and what its members did.

I don't think a person is a heartbreaker for daring to have their own feelings. I don't think a person is a heartbreaker just because they have the appalling nerve not to date someone who wants them. I consider that basic being a human being with feelings of one's own and not an object to make others better. I don't think a person is a heartbreaker for getting out of a harmful relationship - I consider that a very sensible, strong and admirable thing to do.

Which is why we readers tend not to regard Lily as a hearbreaker - she's doing what's right for her, 'daring to have her own feelings', standing up for herself and getting herself out of a bad relationship.

Snape, however, wouldn't take Lily's daring to have her own feelings into consideration, I think, and for him he would consider her as a heartbreaker.

Lily is only a heartbreaker in Snape's eyes, not in anyone else's. That's why I say being a heartbreaker is subjective. It's a title given to you by someone whose heart you've broken. To her friends Lily would be seen as strong for finally giving up a bad relationship. To James she would be being sensible in finally dumping that weirdo Snivellus. But to Snape she would have broken his heart and for him would have earned the title of heartbreaker.

Which is why we readers tend not to regard Lily as a hearbreaker - she's doing what's right for her, 'daring to have her own feelings', standing up for herself and getting herself out of a bad relationship.

I agree. How dare she think for herself. ;)

Snape, however, wouldn't take Lily's daring to have her own feelings into consideration, I think, and for him he would consider her as a heartbreaker.

No, we don't see much of Lily's feelings being taken into consideration by Snape.

Lily is only a heartbreaker in Snape's eyes, not in anyone else's. That's why I say being a heartbreaker is subjective. It's a title given to you by someone whose heart you've broken. To her friends Lily would be seen as strong for finally giving up a bad relationship. To James she would be being sensible in finally dumping that weirdo Snivellus. But to Snape she would have broken his heart and for him would have earned the title of heartbreaker.

In that case, I think it ought to be specified that Lily was only a heartbreaker according to Snape. Because, objectively, one can say that James was a bully at school, and objectively, one can say that Snape became a criminal. I think there is no evidence to objectively say that Lily was a "heartbreaker", which was the generalisation I was initially responding to.

And in terms of Lily's heart, as we're in Lily's thread - how much must it have hurt her to lose Snape as a friend? To know that he was no longer the boy she had known as a child? To know what he thought of her, and how far down the twisted path he had gone? I think it must have hurt Lily immensely.

She would have been hurt, betrayed and humiliated, IMO.

The Potters had no contingency plan for Voldemort showing up at their house without warning. Much is made of them not having their wands but it wouldn't have made any difference against Voldemort.
Maybe it's just me, but it seems like one can do quite a lot with a wand other than engage in single combat. I'm not asking why Lily didn't fight back, I'm why she wasn't even prepared to.

There wasn't much she could do - she didn't have her wand. Perhaps she could have fought physically, put up some resistance, but after she had refused Voldemort's option, he killed her.
This goes along with my previous response to wolfbrother: It just mystifies me that the Potters appear to have been so nonchalant about defending themselves.

Because they trusted their friend. They believed that someone they had known for years was trustworthy and wouldn't sell them out. They believed that there were only four people who knew that he was the Secret Keeper, and two of them were under the roof of Godric's Hollow.
Maybe I've just read too many books or seen too many movies, but I know that believing you're safe is a poor excuse to let your guard down.

Lily didn't have her wand, so she couldn't fight Voldemort off magically.
I don't think she had to anyway. She could fight, yes--and lose, yes. Or she could delay, or deceive, or escape, or a host of other possible magical solutions to the problem of being trapped in a room where a murderer was looking for you. All of which I personally would have considered long before the "oops Voldemort is here" moment.

. Lily's choice is the only one I credit with saving Harry.

Answered on the Severus Snape Character Analysis Thread.

Lily is the only one I credit. I don't give people credit when their misdeeds have unexpected good consequences.
Just getting back to this briefly... I literally don't understand how one person gets credit for unintended consequences and another one doesn't. Lily's good intentions might have backfired spectacularly rather than saving Harry, but by some chance or quirk of magic they didn't. If they had, would you tell me you wouldn't find fault with Lily's actions simply because she meant well?

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like one can do quite a lot with a wand other than engage in single combat. I'm not asking why Lily didn't fight back, I'm why she wasn't even prepared to.

True but given that having a wand has never stopped Voldemort from murdering someone, I don't think it would have made much difference in this case. It seemed to me that they didn't have any backup plan at all. If they had their wands, I think they would have simply tried to fight him off rather than use it to delay him in order to execute a plan.


Maybe I've just read too many books or seen too many movies, but I know that believing you're safe is a poor excuse to let your guard down.

Well, that's what happens when you trust someone. Its like imagining your dad, your sister etc betraying you. Such a thought might not even occur to you.

Just getting back to this briefly... I literally don't understand how one person gets credit for unintended consequences and another one doesn't. Lily's good intentions might have backfired spectacularly rather than saving Harry, but by some chance or quirk of magic they didn't. If they had, would you tell me you wouldn't find fault with Lily's actions simply because she meant well?

The only person I fault in this situation is Voldemort. I don't see how anyone could fault Lily for begging for her child's life, not knowing what the outcome would be. :hmm: She knew perfectly well there was no guarantee that Voldemort would spare her little boy just because she begged him, but what other choice was she left with?

I don't blame either Lily or James for their wandless situation. I do find it surprising, given that they are supposed to be such experienced Order members. But that's not the same as blaming them. In their final moments, JKR portrays both of them as young and vulnerable ... which they were, of course, since they were only 21. :) Anyway, the Potters believed their security was water-tight ... and when it came to a wand-fight, both would be outmatched by Voldemort anyway. (Although I admit I'd have liked to have seen them try ...)

Just getting back to this briefly... I literally don't understand how one person gets credit for unintended consequences and another one doesn't. Lily's good intentions might have backfired spectacularly rather than saving Harry, but by some chance or quirk of magic they didn't. If they had, would you tell me you wouldn't find fault with Lily's actions simply because she meant well?

Snape had selfish, disgusting intentions. He bargained with the life of someone else's baby. That was something appalling, IMO. I don't give him credit for something good coming of an action I find selfish and disgusting.

Lily bargained with her own life, not someone else's. She was acting solely to protect her son. If Lily's actions hadn't saved Harry, I would still consider them good and brave. Yes, I do think intentions count - why shouldn't they? Intentions matter - if a Secret Keeper passes on the secret with an intent to help, i.e. getting a healer in, it's rather different from passing on the secret with an intent to betray, as Wormtail did. I don't know why intentions should be dismissed - a person's intentions when they act show a lot about them. The consequences may not correspond to the intentions, but in terms of analysing a character, I think that their intentions show more about them than unintended consequences.

This is NOT the Snape thread. The next person who draws comparisons between Lily and Snape or incites others to draw such comparisons or otherwise makes this debate as much or more about Snape than Lily is out of here.

Some people might think I villify Lily, but I don't think the word mudblood was the last straw for her. Rather, Lily's friendship with Snape was long gone when that happened and I think she was just looking for a reason to dump him. When he tries to apologize, she conveniently forgets she sided with the bullies -- which is excusable IMO, but the lack of regret bothers me -- and that he is trying to apologize and use an excuse that not even the Marauders use: that he was going to be a death eater.
When he tries to apologize, Lily can not end his friendship with him just because of the name -- he did apologize -- and try to change the focus, saying that he was going down the wrong path just like Avery and Mulciber, even though, at that time, probably wasn't true, since Snape's act of apologizing with Lily for the word says a lot, and I will repeat myself here: Sirius in GoF says no one knew Snape was going to be a Death Eater, and James in SWM could've used the excuse that Snape somewhat deserved it because of what he was aspiring to be, but James uses another excuse: it's because he exists.
What made me change my mind about her was Lily's talk with Snape about the werewolf accident. She accepts entirely the Marauder's version -- and I don't see nothing that wrong here-- but she doesn't seem to even think of the fact Snape was in danger, she focus on the fact he should be grateful because James Potter saved him. For me, Lily already made her decision of not be friends with Snape anymore by then...
Of course, she was young and being always in the center of the attentions just like her future husband, it would be ask too much of her to not be shallow or naive, but she never seemed to have the should've done different thought...
And even though JK said it, I don't think Lily would ever be with Snape. The opposites attract law not always work, but I also don't think James was a good match for her either. They were perfect for each other in a wrong way: instead of bringing the best on each other, they brought the worst, and from a girl that could've been brilliant, she turned herself in the 5th marauder... And that's what I think it's sad about her.
However, she was a kind and compassionate person and her daring personality was the thing that made her befriend Snape in the first place, and the act of dying for Harry, even tough it wasn't exactly heroic (many mothers die for her sons or daughters), meant she could love selfless and that makes a huge difference.

Some people might think I villify Lily, but I don't think the word mudblood was the last straw for her. Rather, Lily's friendship with Snape was long gone when that happened and I think she was just looking for a reason to dump him. When he tries to apologize, she conveniently forgets she sided with the bullies -- which is excusable IMO, but the lack of regret bothers me -- and that he is trying to apologize and use an excuse that not even the Marauders use: that he was going to be a death eater.

By siding with the bullies are you refering to her siding with the marauders?

I do think that Snape's insult was kind of the last straw. Rather than saying their friendship was already over by that point I would say it was seriously on the rocks. In that sense I think calling her a mudblood was the beginning of the end rather than the end in and of itself. I don't think Snape would have let her go that easily, but that's a topic for the Snape thread.

When he tries to apologize, Lily can not end his friendship with him just because of the name -- he did apologize -- and try to change the focus, saying that he was going down the wrong path just like Avery and Mulciber, even though, at that time, probably wasn't true, since Snape's act of apologizing with Lily for the word says a lot, and I will repeat myself here: Sirius in GoF says no one knew Snape was going to be a Death Eater, and James in SWM could've used the excuse that Snape somewhat deserved it because of what he was aspiring to be, but James uses another excuse: it's because he exists.

In one of Snape's memories Lily confronts Snape saying she knows what he and his friends are all aiming to become so she knew or had, at the very least, strongly supported suspicions that Snape would become a Death Eater. Sirius and the marauders didn't know because they didn't know Snape like Lily did, though it shocks me that they wouldn't at least be suspicious of his future as well. (Could you provide a quote from GOF where Sirius said no one knew about Snape becoming a Death Eater? I can't remember that in the books.)

What made me change my mind about her was Lily's talk with Snape about the werewolf accident. She accepts entirely the Marauder's version -- and I don't see nothing that wrong here-- but she doesn't seem to even think of the fact Snape was in danger, she focus on the fact he should be grateful because James Potter saved him. For me, Lily already made her decision of not be friends with Snape anymore by then...

I don't think this is evidence that their friendship was already over. Rather, Lily might not be thinking of Snape being in danger because he put himself in that position. He already had suspicions that Remus was a werewolf and he went out into the grounds the night of a full moon on a tip given to him by a friend of the werewolf. I think Lily is focusing more on the fact that Snape can't put aside his hatred of James and appreciate the fact that James had just saved his life.

Of course, she was young and being always in the center of the attentions just like her future husband, it would be ask too much of her to not be shallow or naive, but she never seemed to have the should've done different thought...

There isn't canon evidence that Lily was always the center of attention. I think she's described as very pretty and well liked but that doesn't mean she was the center of attention. Neither is she described or depicted in the memories (IMO)as shallow or naiive. I think those memories where she interacts with Snape show her friendship, her caring, her concern and at times her frustration with Snape.

And even though JK said it, I don't think Lily would ever be with Snape. The opposites attract law not always work, but I also don't think James was a good match for her either. They were perfect for each other in a wrong way: instead of bringing the best on each other, they brought the worst, and from a girl that could've been brilliant, she turned herself in the 5th marauder... And that's what I think it's sad about her.

I could see how Lily could be with Snape but I think they would have made a very odd couple. She's described as cheeky and vivacious and he's always been portrayed as dower and serious; I don't know how happy she would be with someone who is so serious all the time... In that regard I think she and James were a better match and will end it there lest I get too far into a James vs. Snape thing and my post is deleted. =^P

However, she was a kind and compassionate person and her daring personality was the thing that made her befriend Snape in the first place, and the act of dying for Harry, even tough it wasn't exactly heroic (many mothers die for her sons or daughters), meant she could love selfless and that makes a huge difference.

I disagree, I think it was curiosity that led her to her friendship with Snape. His initial approach was a disaster in his mind but it made her curious.

Lily's biggest point of contention was Severus' friendship with people like Mulciber, Avery and other future D.E.'s, she did later on in the memory tell him she'd made excuses for him to her friends. I would assume that she'd likely tell them that he was a good person even if he was in with the wrong crowd and that he didn't believe what those particular Slytherin's did. I think, it would be hard to justify her defence of him to her friends after he called her a Mudblood and obviously parroted the beliefs of his group of cronies at her.

Some people might think I villify Lily, but I don't think the word mudblood was the last straw for her. Rather, Lily's friendship with Snape was long gone when that happened and I think she was just looking for a reason to dump him. When he tries to apologize, she conveniently forgets she sided with the bullies -- which is excusable IMO, but the lack of regret bothers me -- and that he is trying to apologize and use an excuse that not even the Marauders use: that he was going to be a death eater.

Where did Lily side with the bullies? She told them off, she warned them to let Snape alone, ordered them to let him down from mid-air. She gave them a verbal roasting. I see nothing for Lily to regret, apart from not ending the friendship the moment Snape started hanging out with racist creeps like Avery and Mulciber. These were people who considered Lily subhuman. These were people who thought Lily didn't deserve magic, or even to live. I think the blinkers came off when Snape threw the worst racial epithet in the wizarding world at her - she realised that no friend would hang around with people who considered her filth. No true friend would throw racist abuse at her.

When he tries to apologize, Lily can not end his friendship with him just because of the name -- he did apologize -- and try to change the focus, saying that he was going down the wrong path just like Avery and Mulciber, even though, at that time, probably wasn't true, since Snape's act of apologizing with Lily for the word says a lot, and I will repeat myself here:

He apologised because Lily showed that she wouldn't stand for it, not because the word itself was unacceptable. I don't think it's as trivial as "just a name". That word isn't "just a name" - it's the very worst racial epithet in the wizarding world, and its real-world parallels are quite blatant. There is everything that name stands for - that word is weighted with prejudice and bigotry. That word means the target is scum, filthy and unworthy of magic. That showed that Lily had a "friend" who did not respect her. Why should Lily stay in a friendship with someone like that? An apology means little unless there's a genuine acknowledgement that someone did something wrong, that they were responsible for their actions and there's a willingness to change. Snape didn't acknowledge that it was wrong, and a terrible thing to call anyone. He says "sorry", but qualifies it with " I didn't mean -". Lily was not obliged to accept a friend who considered her a " filthy little mudblood", and who hung around with DE wannabes, who himself wanted to join the very group that was oppressing and murdering Muggleborns.

What made me change my mind about her was Lily's talk with Snape about the werewolf accident. She accepts entirely the Marauder's version -- and I don't see nothing that wrong here-- but she doesn't seem to even think of the fact Snape was in danger, she focus on the fact he should be grateful because James Potter saved him. For me, Lily already made her decision of not be friends with Snape anymore by then...

Lily knew Snape suspected Lupin was a werewolf before the incident. She knew then, that Snape went down the passageway expecting to find a transformed werewolf. That was a stupid thing to do, and I wonder if Lily saw it as such.
And what should she have been doing? This was a day or so after the werewolf incident, I think. Should Lily have still been gushing over Snape being in danger?

Of course, she was young and being always in the center of the attentions just like her future husband, it would be ask too much of her to not be shallow or naive, but she never seemed to have the should've done different thought...

I fail to see what was shallow about Lily. Lily objected to the most shallow and arrogant thing of all in the books - the blood prejudice, as spouted by her so-called friend. She showed self-respect in getting out of a toxic friendship. What should Lily have done different? Supported Snape in his DE career? Snape refused Lily's advice, he refused to listen to her concerns about his dangerous friends. She could not keep putting herself at risk, both safety and self-respect, for someone who refused to acknowledge that he was doing anything wrong. I admire Lily for getting out of that toxic friendship. I think it takes strength and self-respect to refuse to be someone else's doormat and to acknowledge that you cannot "save" someone from themselves, especially if they refuse your help.

And even though JK said it, I don't think Lily would ever be with Snape. The opposites attract law not always work, but I also don't think James was a good match for her either. They were perfect for each other in a wrong way: instead of bringing the best on each other, they brought the worst, and from a girl that could've been brilliant, she turned herself in the 5th marauder... And that's what I think it's sad about her.

In what way did Lily become the fifth Marauder? She and James were good for each other. Lily and James worked together against Voldemort. Lily chose to oppose Voldemort rather than support a Death Eater in his career of crime. I think it would have been a tragedy for Lily if she had become nothing more than a conscience-lacking, blind-eye-turning mob-wife to a DE. Or if she had withered away into another Eileen Prince, miserable in a destructive relationship with someone who didn't respect her and took his problems out on her.

However, she was a kind and compassionate person and her daring personality was the thing that made her befriend Snape in the first place, and the act of dying for Harry, even tough it wasn't exactly heroic (many mothers die for her sons or daughters), meant she could love selfless and that makes a huge difference.

I think it was heroic. Lily was offered the chance to save herself. She chose to protect her son. She didn't know it would do anything at all to protect Harry. As far as she knew, he was going to die right after her. Yet, she chose not to abandon her baby to a murdering madman. Also, just because lots of parents die to protect their children, doesn't make it less heroic. Lots of firefighters, for example, die trying to save others. Doesn't make any one of them less heroic.

I do think that Snape's insult was kind of the last straw. Rather than saying their friendship was already over by that point I would say it was seriously on the rocks. In that sense I think calling her a mudblood was the beginning of the end rather than the end in and of itself.

I think it caused Lily to wake up and smell the coffee. She could no longer kid herself about the path Snape was taking. She could no longer kid herself that he wasn't like Mulciber and Avery. She could no longer kid herself that he was the same boy she had befriended.

There isn't canon evidence that Lily was always the center of attention. I think she's described as very pretty and well liked but that doesn't mean she was the center of attention. Neither is she described or depicted in the memories (IMO)as shallow or naiive. I think those memories where she interacts with Snape show her friendship, her caring, her concern and at times her frustration with Snape.

I agree. Lily is never shown as seeking attention. Nor is she shown as being shallow - actually, I consider Snape's actions shallow here - the blood prejudice is incredibly shallow and arrogant.


I disagree, I think it was curiosity that led her to her friendship with Snape. His initial approach was a disaster in his mind but it made her curious.

I think it was mutual curiosity and interest. Both were delighted to meet another wizarding child, and I think that laid the foundation for the friendship on both sides.


Lily's biggest point of contention was Severus' friendship with people like Mulciber, Avery and other future D.E.'s, she did later on in the memory tell him she'd made excuses for him to her friends. I would assume that she'd likely tell them that he was a good person even if he was in with the wrong crowd and that he didn't believe what those particular Slytherin's did. I think, it would be hard to justify her defence of him to her friends after he called her a Mudblood and obviously parroted the beliefs of his group of cronies at her.

I think she did tell herself - and Snape - that he was better than them. In one of the memories, she tells Snape she doesn't know why he hangs around with Mulciber, because Mulciber is creepy. Clearly, she thinks that Snape is different, that he isn't like his budding DE pals. I think she believes them a bad influence. I don't think she realised exactly how far down that dark path Snape had gone until he threw the worst racial epithet in the wizarding world at her.
I think she told her friends what you suggest. I think Lily's friends' concerns for her were much like Lily's concerns for Snape - "the person/people you're hanging out with are trouble and I/we don't want them to drag you into their mess".

Please, folks, shades of grey! Introduce them to your posts! And while you're at it, please make sure that your posts lose any confrontational or inflammatory language.

For reference:

REVISED: Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108021)

How to have a pleasant conversation on any topic. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108019)

I see some people disagreed on what I said about her waiting a reason for dumping him -- well, that is, indeed, what I think:evil:, and what it seems to me and we disagree on that.
Because even though James' version of the werewolf thing was full of holes as such
1. What was James doing there anyway, shouldn't he be in his dorm (in the view of a person who doesn't know what the marauders do)?
2.What was down there (it was Lupin's secret, but Lily should at least ask someone about this).
3.James, if he saved Snape, knew what was down there, and if was something dangerous, then why he didn't tell the Headmaster (again, in the view of a person that didn't know)?
But Lily never question any of this. Snape even said to Lily he was just trying to save his own neck and his friends' neck, and that lupin was werewolf (bad attitude, by the way). Lily, at that time, wasn't friends with the Marauders, and even (as some people said) if her friendship with Snape was on the last straw, shouldn't she at least question the Marauder's version...? :yuhup:
It's not just the fact she didn't trust Snape as much anymore that make me think the way I do -- it's because she, even before the SWM, believed what the Marauders said, and changed the focus on the conversation to Avery and Mulciber, saying the idea of what they did was just a laugh was evil -- but the Marauders did the same (the spell that swell heads isn't much of a light spell, if you ask me and no threat to Mary's life was mentioned).
I, however, would believe their friendship was in the last straw if Lily mentioned what she said after SWM. Had she questioned before that Avery and Mulciber were proto death eaters, and that he was going down on the same way, and if he, yet, used the word mudblood, then, yes, I would agree with you all.
But I'm not character bashing -- the thing is, Lily was young at that time, and, of course, being naive, and self centered is something expected from a 16 years old, especially her, that was the centre of attention (smart, pretty and even had a group of giggling girls, mentioned in SWM), wasn't much emphatic and couldn't understand that Snape couldn't afford losing his friendship with his housemates (the same way she couldn't understand why Tuney didn't like her so much). Lily could find new friends easily and didn't understand that Snape couldn't -- and then he would be persecuted by the slytherins and the gryffindors all the same, even if he did find new friends, say, in the ravenclaw house.
And it didn't make her bad, or evil, just a normal teenage girl under the extreme pressure of a war banging on her door.
And yes, I do believe she sided with the bullies (again, we are disagreeing) because even if she thought James was as bad as Snape, she did leave Snape at James' mercy, did make a snide remark on his underpants and did call him snivellus, and unlike Snape, that showed deep regret for what he had said, she didn't. But -- again -- that doesn't make her bad. Just a normal teenage girl. I don't see what's wrong with that. :relax:

1. What was James doing there anyway, shouldn't he be in his dorm (in the view of a person who doesn't know what the marauders do)?

He very well might have been in his dorm, then Sirius walks in bragging about how he sent Snape down the willow passage and James would have gone running after him.

2.What was down there (it was Lupin's secret, but Lily should at least ask someone about this).

I assume you mean "did James know what was at the end of the passage?" YES! A fully fledged werewolf who wouldn't hesitate to bite or kill any person it found down that passage. James (IMO) didn't want Remus burdened by the guilt of having inflicted his disease on anyone else nor did he want Remus to have the burden on being a murderer so James went and saved Snape before anything bad could happen despite severely not liking Snape.

3.James, if he saved Snape, knew what was down there, and if was something dangerous, then why he didn't tell the Headmaster (again, in the view of a person that didn't know)?

He probably didn't have time and, in addition, didn't want his best friend expelled for possibly sending another student to their death.. If he had stopped to tell Dumbledore anything Snape might have been attacked or killed by Remus. There wasn't time, or at least didn't appear to be time, to stop and tell anyone. The whole story came out when Snape told Dumbledore what happened and I'm sure Sirius got a boat load of detentions, maybe even a suspension (though there's no canon precedence for suspending Hogwarts students).

I badly want to reply to the rest of the post but I dont have time... =^( Maybe in a couple hours...

EDIT: To finish my reply

To complete my thought on point number three above, it's pretty obvious that Sirius would be repremanded for what he did to Snape but I do believe that if James had gone to Dumbledore BEFORE going down the willow passage to save Snape and it turns out that Snape had been attacked or killed, Sirius for sure would have gotten a far worse punishment - probably explusion - than if James had stopped Snape before anything bad could have happened to him - in which case, as in canon, Sirius's punishment would most likely have been a long string of detentions and restrictions on other activities he enjoyed (removed from the Quidditch team if he had been on the team, banned from any clubs he might participate in, etc)

But Lily never question any of this. Snape even said to Lily he was just trying to save his own neck and his friends' neck, and that lupin was werewolf (bad attitude, by the way). Lily, at that time, wasn't friends with the Marauders, and even (as some people said) if her friendship with Snape was on the last straw, shouldn't she at least question the Marauder's version...?

At this point, their relationship hadn't reached the 'last straw' they were still 'on the rocks.' Lily may have, at this point, begun to question Snape's intentions both towards her (realizing he had a crush on her) and towards James/Marauders whom he has this very contentious relationship with. At this time she might be questioning what Snape tells her in regards to James in particular, especially since both Lily and Snape seem to know James fancies her - Snape is upset by this, Lily might have been a little oddly flattered - she might even have had a little crush on James in return.

It's not just the fact she didn't trust Snape as much anymore that make me think the way I do -- it's because she, even before the SWM, believed what the Marauders said, and changed the focus on the conversation to Avery and Mulciber, saying the idea of what they did was just a laugh was evil -- but the Marauders did the same (the spell that swell heads isn't much of a light spell, if you ask me and no threat to Mary's life was mentioned).

Snape had shared with Lily his suspicions that Remus was a werewolf and probably deduced that his friends had a hand in covering for him. To her this probably showed her that they were, deep down, good, loyal friends. As far as the head-swelling jinx and Mulciber's curse, it's hard to equate them; Mulciber is directly and overtly said to be using dark magic. Just because her life might not have been in danger doesn't mean mulciber was using a tickling charm on her. Bellatrix drove the Longbottoms to madness with the cruciatus curse - arguably non-leathal but dangerous dark magic non the less. The head-swelling jinx is a little more mystifying because it's not stated on page whether this was a jinx they learned from a friend, a jinx that was experiencing a 'vouge' as levicorpus did, or if, indeed, it was one of the illegal hexes James and Sirius were placed in detention for. There's just not enough known about both situations to adequately judge them against each other. What can be said for sure, though, is that Mulciber's intentions were not to be nice to Mary. He was out to do her harm. James and Sirius were mostly likely playing a prank they thought was funny, meaning their intentions were not to do their victim grievous harm.

But I'm not character bashing -- the thing is, Lily was young at that time, and, of course, being naive, and self centered is something expected from a 16 years old, especially her, that was the centre of attention (smart, pretty and even had a group of giggling girls, mentioned in SWM), wasn't much emphatic and couldn't understand that Snape couldn't afford losing his friendship with his housemates (the same way she couldn't understand why Tuney didn't like her so much). Lily could find new friends easily and didn't understand that Snape couldn't -- and then he would be persecuted by the slytherins and the gryffindors all the same, even if he did find new friends, say, in the ravenclaw house.

I wouldn't say that because she's pretty, smart and seen in the company of a gaggle of girls that that makes her automatically self centered. I'd say that shows that she's got a large group of friends and seems to be well liked by those girls. Neither would I say that she didn't understand that Snape was between a rock and a hard place with his position in Slytherin - choose her and he could become mulciber's next dark magic victim. Choose his slytherin friends and he loses the girl he's loved for about ten years. I think she very much understood the consequences for Snape and that was part of the reason she stayed his friend for as long as she did, despite her friends not understand it. Lily was arguably the person who knew Snape the best in the world and I think she knew exactly how difficult it would be for Snape to make friends that weren't headed toward Death Eatership. That was his natural tendancy, his personal interest and it would take someone like herself leading him by the hand every step of the way in order for him to get in with a 'good' crowd. Then, as Lily would also know, it would take those new friends accepting Snape's peculiar intensity and interests. She knew. She definitely knew. I also disagree with your statement that she didn't understand why Petunia was upset with her (May I take a moment to express my extreme distaste for the nickname "Tuney"? *wretching* Moment over.)

He very well might have been in his dorm, then Sirius walks in bragging about how he sent Snape down the willow passage and James would have gone running after him.

I assume you mean "did James know what was at the end of the passage?" YES! A fully fledged werewolf who wouldn't hesitate to bite or kill any person it found down that passage. James (IMO) didn't want Remus burdened by the guilt of having inflicted his disease on anyone else nor did he want Remus to have the burden on being a murderer so James went and saved Snape before anything bad could happen despite severely not liking Snape.

He probably didn't have time and, in addition, didn't want his best friend expelled for possibly sending another student to their death.. If he had stopped to tell Dumbledore anything Snape might have been attacked or killed by Remus. There wasn't time, or at least didn't appear to be time, to stop and tell anyone. The whole story came out when Snape told Dumbledore what happened and I'm sure Sirius got a boat load of detentions, maybe even a suspension (though there's no canon precedence for suspending Hogwarts students).

You completely misunderstood my point. This thread isn't about James, and I wanted to point it out that Lily didn't know these things, and she should've asked. But she didn't, and accepted a version full of holes from people that weren't even her friends at that time (or worse, a little bit of enemies). And worst: she don't even bother ask what the other version might be. That's why I think the friendship was over by then. It's not just about distrusting Snape -- it's about chosing the bullies version over his (a version that she doesn't even know, by the way, she knew nothing about Sirius) and believe quite quickly it was his fault, even though the Marauders have the tendency to spin Snape in the worst light possible, and she knew it.
Sounds like friendship over to me.:relax:

What can be said for sure, though, is that Mulciber's intentions were not to be nice to Mary. He was out to do her harm. James and Sirius were mostly likely playing a prank they thought was funny, meaning their intentions were not to do their victim grievous harm.

I don't see how Avery and Mulciber can't be the Slytherin version of James and Sirius, and how can you be so sure Mulciber wanted to do Mary any harm? I might be wrong here -- but my point still stands. Lily questions what Avery and Mulciber do, but not what the Marauders do, and they are still very similar. And the idea of what the marauders do is funny is still kind of evil, IMHO. Just a laugh or let's kill Mary, both are wrong, and Lily has a blind eye for her housemates, just like Snape had.

Mulciber is directly and overtly said to be using dark magic.

The concept is abstract, and I won't put the quote here -- but don't think if it was the cruciatus, most likely Avery and Mulciber would've gone to Azkaban? The fact that they probably didn't get more than a detention says a lot about what kind of "dark magic" they used.

I wouldn't say that because she's pretty, smart and seen in the company of a gaggle of girls that that makes her automatically self centered. I'd say that shows that she's got a large group of friends and seems to be well liked by those girls. Neither would I say that she didn't understand that Snape was between a rock and a hard place with his position in Slytherin - choose her and he could become mulciber's next dark magic victim. Choose his slytherin friends and he loses the girl he's loved for about ten years. I think she very much understood the consequences for Snape and that was part of the reason she stayed his friend for as long as she did, despite her friends not understand it. Lily was arguably the person who knew Snape the best in the world and I think she knew exactly how difficult it would be for Snape to make friends that weren't headed toward Death Eatership. That was his natural tendancy, his personal interest and it would take someone like herself leading him by the hand every step of the way in order for him to get in with a 'good' crowd. Then, as Lily would also know, it would take those new friends accepting Snape's peculiar intensity and interests. She knew. She definitely knew. I also disagree with your statement that she didn't understand why Petunia was upset with her (May I take a moment to express my extreme distaste for the nickname "Tuney"? *wretching* Moment over.)

Then we have to disagree here, because Lily was a bit self centered in thinking just because she told Snape to don't hang out with Avery and Mulciber anymore then he would've stopped. She changed nothing Snape's situation, nor she makes an effort to understand. Snape wasn't listening to her, and he should have, but either way Lily didn't do much to help her friend more than telling him what to do and making excuses for him (nice, but what about listening to him for a change?)... She talks to much, listens to little, and was that intentional or not, it was a mistake she made. Much like Hermione, who wants to save the house elves, but she doesn't make any effort to understand what the house elves think and chooses the wrong approach to help them. Common teenage girl mistakes, I think.
Also, I would like to add that even though Snape loved Lily for quite some time, doesn't change the fact that Lily couldn't protect him in the slytherin dorms, every class, in the common room... And thousands of other places. "Snape's peculiar interests" are something to be discussed in another place, though I would say that by then he wasn't as dark as he was in his sixth year, even if he used Sectusempra in SWM... He was defending himself, not attacking, and after, if Sirius is to be trusted, Snape became more offensive.

Snape had shared with Lily his suspicions that Remus was a werewolf and probably deduced that his friends had a hand in covering for him. To her this probably showed her that they were, deep down, good, loyal friends.

Also, I think she may have felt that another student's rumoured health condition was simply none of her business to pry in and gossip about.

I wouldn't say that because she's pretty, smart and seen in the company of a gaggle of girls that that makes her automatically self centered.

I agree. I fail to see how being pretty and having friends seems to automatically equal self-centred and shallow.

Neither would I say that she didn't understand that Snape was between a rock and a hard place with his position in Slytherin - choose her and he could become mulciber's next dark magic victim. Choose his slytherin friends and he loses the girl he's loved for about ten years. I think she very much understood the consequences for Snape and that was part of the reason she stayed his friend for as long as she did, despite her friends not understand it.

Perhaps. I think Lily may have been in denial - I think she refused to acknowledge for a long time that her friend had changed, he was no longer the boy she had befriended. I think losing her relationship with Petunia may have been a factor in her attitude towards the friendship with Snape - she didn't want to lose someone else who had been a big part of her childhood.

And it says something about Mulciber as a "friend" if he would turn dark magic on Snape if Snape stopped hanging around with him.


That was his natural tendancy, his personal interest and it would take someone like herself leading him by the hand every step of the way in order for him to get in with a 'good' crowd.

And it wasn't her responsibility to morally "babysit" Snape through his life and walk him through the reasons why not to become a dangerous criminal, and give him a "reason" not to become a DE. :eeep:

You completely misunderstood my point. This thread isn't about James, and I wanted to point it out that Lily didn't know these things, and she should've asked. But she didn't, and accepted a version full of holes from people that weren't even her friends at that time (or worse, a little bit of enemies). And worst: she don't even bother ask what the other version might be.

Maybe it's because Lily knows that Lupin's condition is his own business. Maybe she doesn't think it's her place to snoop in another students' health.

That's why I think the friendship was over by then. It's not just about distrusting Snape -- it's about chosing the bullies version over his (a version that she doesn't even know, by the way, she knew nothing about Sirius) and believe quite quickly it was his fault, even though the Marauders have the tendency to spin Snape in the worst light possible, and she knew it.
Sounds like friendship over to me.:relax:

Personally, I think Lily was being rational. Friendship does not mean blindly agreeing and supporting everything. That's being a sycophant. A good friend can think for themselves and is capable of telling their friend they're in the wrong, and can hear a friend tell them they're in the wrong without it being a disaster.


I don't see how Avery and Mulciber can't be the Slytherin version of James and Sirius, and how can you be so sure Mulciber wanted to do Mary any harm?

Lily said that it was dark magic. And there is nothing to contradict that, and there is the canon fact that Mulciber went on to become a DE.
Avery and Mulciber were racist thugs who planned to become DEs. James and Sirius were not. Therefore, I don't see how they are versions of each other.

I might be wrong here -- but my point still stands. Lily questions what Avery and Mulciber do, but not what the Marauders do, and they are still very similar. And the idea of what the marauders do is funny is still kind of evil, IMHO. Just a laugh or let's kill Mary, both are wrong, and Lily has a blind eye for her housemates, just like Snape had.

Lily did not have a blind eye towards the marauders - when she and Snape are discussing them, she acknowledges that he's an "arrogant toerag". She certainly doesn't dismiss what they do as "just a laugh". I think Lily draws a distinction between schoolyard bullying and dark magic. And she stands up to her housemates, on Snape's behalf, in front of the entire fifth year group. Something none of his DE buddies did.

The concept is abstract, and I won't put the quote here -- but don't think if it was the cruciatus, most likely Avery and Mulciber would've gone to Azkaban? The fact that they probably didn't get more than a detention says a lot about what kind of "dark magic" they used.

Or that they weren't caught. The DEs were quite good at not getting caught, as the series shows.

Then we have to disagree here, because Lily was a bit self centered in thinking just because she told Snape to don't hang out with Avery and Mulciber anymore then he would've stopped. She changed nothing Snape's situation, nor she makes an effort to understand.

What could Lily have changed? Snape himself had to make the decision whether or not to be a criminal. Lily couldn't make that choice for him. But she did make it for herself.

I don't see how Lily was self-centred in not wanting Snape to hang around Mulciber and Avery. These were racist thugs, DE wannabes who considered people like Lily to be subhuman scum. I don't think Lily was asking too much by expecting her so-called friend to respect her. And she wasn't getting respect from a friend who hung around with people who despised and wanted to oppress Muggleborns. Personally, I think she was foolish and naive to stay in that situation as long as she did.

Snape wasn't listening to her, and he should have, but either way Lily didn't do much to help her friend more than telling him what to do and making excuses for him (nice, but what about listening to him for a change?)...

I think it was Snape who was failing to listen to Lily. Lily was concerned about Snape, she warned him about his friends being bad news. I think that's what any decent friend would do. No decent friend would be all supportive and thumbs up about their friend joining a criminal group, or hanging around with racist wannabe criminals.

She talks to much, listens to little, and was that intentional or not, it was a mistake she made.

What should Lily have been listening to? The good points of the DEs? The reasons why dark magic was okay as long as it was used against people the DEs decided deserved it?

Common teenage girl mistakes, I think.

I find that quite a generalisation. :hmm:

I don't see how Avery and Mulciber can't be the Slytherin version of James and Sirius, and how can you be so sure Mulciber wanted to do Mary any harm? I might be wrong here -- but my point still stands. Lily questions what Avery and Mulciber do, but not what the Marauders do, and they are still very similar. And the idea of what the marauders do is funny is still kind of evil, IMHO. Just a laugh or let's kill Mary, both are wrong, and Lily has a blind eye for her housemates, just like Snape had.

Avery and Mulciber may be the Slytherin version of James and Sirius in that they were the House bullies who went around hexing other people. However, we can be sure that A & M meant harm to Mary because they used Dark Magic to do it. What is it that makes Dark Magic "Dark?" It's inherant intent to harm. What the Marauders do, i.e. the head-swelling hex, is presented in the text as comparatively harmless. More like the bat-bogey hex that Ginny uses, or the hexes used outside the Potions classroom used on Crabbe and Hermione in Book 2. Use of these hexes, head-swelling included, get the students who cast them nothing worse than detention, and the victims of the hexes nothing worse than a day with Madame Pomfrey.

Dark Magic, on the other hand: the books gives as examples Sectumsempra, Imperio, Crucio, and Avada Kedavra. The consequences are much more severe for the victim, and the punishment is Azkaban for the caster.

I see no reason to doubt Lily's judgement in that she says that what A & M do are Dark Magic, while what James and Sirius do are pranks and hexes. Lily was Prefect, and as such had some authority over her fellow students. I think that means that Dumbledore trusted her to evaluate how severe the misbehavior of other students was, and to know that there was a difference between being one guy being an arrogant toe-rag, and the other guys wanting to join up with Voldemort as soon as they got out of school.

In my opinion, this does not make Lily "shallow." It makes her a competant judge of character. She has her flaws, yes. But the fact that she did not lump James and Sirius in with the boys who wanted to be Death Eaters was not one of her flaws.

You completely misunderstood my point. This thread isn't about James, and I wanted to point it out that Lily didn't know these things, and she should've asked. But she didn't, and accepted a version full of holes from people that weren't even her friends at that time (or worse, a little bit of enemies). And worst: she don't even bother ask what the other version might be. That's why I think the friendship was over by then. It's not just about distrusting Snape -- it's about chosing the bullies version over his (a version that she doesn't even know, by the way, she knew nothing about Sirius) and believe quite quickly it was his fault, even though the Marauders have the tendency to spin Snape in the worst light possible, and she knew it.
Sounds like friendship over to me.:relax:

How do we know she didn't ask? Just because it wasn't shown in canon doesn't mean she didn't. Let's take your points from Lily's point of view then:

1. What was James doing there anyway, shouldn't he be in his dorm (in the view of a person who doesn't know what the marauders do)?

My suggestion that James was in the dorms is still valid and Lily had the capacity as a fellow Gryfindor to have known that - she could have been sitting next to him on the sofa, sitting at the next table glaring at him for being a jerk, just entering the common room as he comes barreling out of it to go save Snape...

2.What was down there (it was Lupin's secret, but Lily should at least ask someone about this).

Assuming the question is now "Did Lily know what was 'down there'? [down the willow passage]" She likely might have put two and two together - full moons are not exactly unpredictable, nor are they often very subtle, and Snape had already shared his suspicions about Remus being a werewolf with her. In addition, Snape also told her his version of the story during which he would have explained to her what he saw at the end of the tunnel - a werewolf, a.k.a. Remus - so she wouldn't need to ask anyone else about it - an no one else (except the marauders, the headmaster, pomfrey and maybe one or two teachers) would have known about Remus's condition because they tried so hard to keep it quiet.

3.James, if he saved Snape, knew what was down there, and if was something dangerous, then why he didn't tell the Headmaster (again, in the view of a person that didn't know)?

Snape would explain this away to Lily as James trying to save his own neck and keep his friend from getting into more trouble than he was already in. Lily, by this time, knew that James knew Remus was a werewolf so you're paranthetical qualification of "in the view of a person that didn't know" is a moot point because she knew about Remus, Snape knew about Remus, James, Sirius and Peter all knew about Remus and she had probably realized that by Dumbledore telling Snape that he couldn't spill the beans about Remus that the headmaster knew as well. And if Lily had confronted James with this question, asking him why he didn't tell Dumbledore what Sirius had done James would probably have come back with some smartmouth response in the likes of "so you wanted Snape to die then? I just barely made it there in time to save him, if I'd have gone to dumbledore first your little snivelly boyfriend would be dead, dying or a werewolf himself right not."

I don't see how Avery and Mulciber can't be the Slytherin version of James and Sirius, and how can you be so sure Mulciber wanted to do Mary any harm? I might be wrong here -- but my point still stands.

Not related to Lily so I've answered in the Death Eaters group character analysis thread (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=107858&highlight=death+eaters&page=4) (since Mulciber doesn't seem to have his own thread)

Lily questions what Avery and Mulciber do, but not what the Marauders do, and they are still very similar. And the idea of what the marauders do is funny is still kind of evil, IMHO. Just a laugh or let's kill Mary, both are wrong, and Lily has a blind eye for her housemates, just like Snape had.

You're right. Lily doesn't 'question' the marauders, she actively stands up to them. She didn't think what the marauders did was funny, she was standing up for Snape when they started bullying him. In fact, we are shown several examples of her not being impressed by the marauders/James's actions. And her turning on Snape in SWM is not, to me, an example of her siding with the marauders at that point. It's not like her only options were to chose between the Marauders and Snape. She lashed out at Snape because he used a racial epithet against her and she was consequently hurt and angered by that and she wanted to hurt him in return.

And let's be clear here: There a MASSIVE difference between mean spirited bullying and the intention to harm or kill someone. Both are wrong, yes, but they are not the same. Bullying is mean, it's not evil. People (tend to) grow out of bullying as they mature into adulthood. If you show tendancies to harm or kill people in youth those tendancies usually only get worse as you age. They are not the same.

The concept is abstract, and I won't put the quote here -- but don't think if it was the cruciatus, most likely Avery and Mulciber would've gone to Azkaban? The fact that they probably didn't get more than a detention says a lot about what kind of "dark magic" they used.

I don't have my book on me right now but quote from DH, The Prince's Tale is something akin to

[Lily] "Did you hear what Mulciber tried to do to Mary McDonald?"
[Snape] "It was nothing - a laugh"
[Lily] "It was dark magic, Sev. And if you think that's funny..."

In the same way Sirius wasn't expelled for almost getting Snape killed, Mulciber wasn't expelled for almost using dark magic on Mary. Mary was also probably the only witness that could tell them what Mucliber was trying to do to her and since he didn't seem to achieve the ability to pull off the dark magic against her she couldn't tell them what spell he was trying to use - or if he did manage it, she might not have known what the spell was and so couldn't tell anyone else what it was.

Then we have to disagree here, because Lily was a bit self centered in thinking just because she told Snape to don't hang out with Avery and Mulciber anymore then he would've stopped.

I don't think that's her being self-centered, I think that's her laying down an ultimatum: "I don't want to be friends with someone who likes being around people who are soon to become criminals and probably murderers and I don't want my friend to become a criminal or a murderer either." It was up to Snape to decide on his own what he wanted to do and for Lily's part she would either gain her friend back or end a relationship that had gone toxic. She didn't want any part of the Death Eater or Voldemort's cause and she could see that's where Snape was headed so she gave him an ultimatum, just like a million other people do with their friends or lovers. Is it the best, most mature thing to do? Not entirely. But she wasn't doing it to be mean to Snape, she needed to know one way or the other what side he was choosing because she had already made that choice.

She changed nothing Snape's situation, nor she makes an effort to understand.

She didn't make an effort to understand what? That Snape would have a hard time making friends without her? It wasn't Lily's job to make sure Snape had a happy life and lots of friends, that's was Snape's responsibility (And he had friends, it just so happened they all turned into Death Eaters). She understood that it was Snape's choice which path in life he chose and she was making sure he knew that if he chose to follow and remain friends with Mulciber and Avery that her and Snape's friendship would be over.

Snape wasn't listening to her, and he should have, but either way Lily didn't do much to help her friend more than telling him what to do and making excuses for him (nice, but what about listening to him for a change?)... She talks to much, listens to little, and was that intentional or not, it was a mistake she made. Much like Hermione, who wants to save the house elves, but she doesn't make any effort to understand what the house elves think and chooses the wrong approach to help them. Common teenage girl mistakes, I think.

I disagree that Lily was telling him what to do. I think she was laying the cards on the table and telling him "This is what's going on, these are your choices and the consequences of those choices and it's up to you to decide. I am you're friend and I am concerned for you but let's be very clear: If you choose that path then I can't stay your friend."

I also disagree that Lily didn't understand Snape the way Hermione didn't understand the house elves. Lily and Snape, by fifth year, had been friends for about seven or eight years. She knew him, knew his personality, knew his quarks, his foibles, his strengths, his weaknesses. Hermione met a house elf, made a snap judgement that the way they were being treated was unfair and went about trying to start a revolution for them without bothering to ask them if that's what they wanted.

It's also worth pointing out that there is more to Lily and Snape's relationship that what we're shown on page and it so happens that the bits of their relationship that we're shown tend to be the bits where they're arguing. Lily appears to have been a passionate person with strong convictions and if she wasn't listening to Snape in those moments it might have been because she had heard it all before.

Also, I would like to add that even though Snape loved Lily for quite some time, doesn't change the fact that Lily couldn't protect him in the slytherin dorms, every class, in the common room... And thousands of other places.

I don't think it was her job to protect him. She wasn't his mother, she was his friend, and as a friend all she could do is offer advice and hope that advice would help guide him in making good decisions. I'd also say that it was because of their frequent separation that Snape ended up making some of the bad decisions he made. He already followed voldemort's career when he arrived at Hogwarts and ended up being sorted into a house full of kids who talked Voldemort up and praised his ideas and swept Snape up in their adoration. Snape was separated for a good amount of his time from the positive influence of Lily and that was neither of their fault, it was a circumstance of their sorting.

"Snape's peculiar interests" are something to be discussed in another place, though I would say that by then he wasn't as dark as he was in his sixth year, even if he used Sectusempra in SWM... He was defending himself, not attacking, and after, if Sirius is to be trusted, Snape became more offensive.

Answered in Snape's thread (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=130496&page=14).

EDIT: Never mind, mods deleted the post. =^/

And her turning on Snape in SWM is not, to me, an example of her siding with the marauders at that point. It's not like her only options were to chose between the Marauders and Snape.


I agree. She laid into both camps for their unacceptable behaviour. She didn't approve of either of them - the Marauder's bullying or Snape's racial epithet.

She lashed out at Snape because he used a racial epithet against her and she was consequently hurt and angered by that and she wanted to hurt him in return.

Is it the best, most mature thing to do? Not entirely. But she wasn't doing it to be mean to Snape, she needed to know one way or the other what side he was choosing because she had already made that choice.

I think it was the best thing under the circumstances. Lily could not compromise her self-respect, morals and personal safety. She could not play mob-wife, turning a blind eye. She refused to support a DE. IMO, that means that she could not continue her friendship with Snape while he was planning to become a DE. A dangerous choice in that situation would be to follow the way of the three monkeys. I think that would be more immature and certainly more dangerous than giving Snape an ultimatum.

She didn't make an effort to understand what? That Snape would have a hard time making friends without her? It wasn't Lily's job to make sure Snape had a happy life and lots of friends, that's was Snape's responsibility

I agree. Lily did not exist for the sole purpose of Snape's happiness.

I disagree that Lily was telling him what to do. I think she was laying the cards on the table and telling him "This is what's going on, these are your choices and the consequences of those choices and it's up to you to decide. I am you're friend and I am concerned for you but let's be very clear: If you choose that path then I can't stay your friend."

I think a true friend warns someone when they're going down the wrong path. It's not much of a friend who will clap you on the back when you hang out with criminals and plan to become one yourself. It's not much of a friend who will pretend that it's okay and not a big deal that you're going down the wrong path.

Some people might think I villify Lily, but I don't think the word mudblood was the last straw for her. Rather, Lily's friendship with Snape was long gone when that happened and I think she was just looking for a reason to dump him. When he tries to apologize, she conveniently forgets she sided with the bullies -- which is excusable IMO, but the lack of regret bothers me -- and that he is trying to apologize and use an excuse that not even the Marauders use: that he was going to be a death eater. "Dumping" Snape as you put it is not siding with "the bullies." Not wanting to be Snape's friend doesn't mean she automatically takes the other side. Yes, we do know eventually she befriends them and marries James, but I don't think it happens at the moment she defriends Snape.

"Dumping" Snape as you put it is not siding with "the bullies." Not wanting to be Snape's friend doesn't mean she automatically takes the other side. Yes, we do know eventually she befriends them and marries James, but I don't think it happens at the moment she defriends Snape.
The question is though, did she really not take sides? I mean, I'm not suggesting otherwise, but talking generally, and I wonder how we might analyze that scene itself if the question is whether Lily actually takes herself out of the equation. I suppose we'll have to assume that the memory record itself is reliable. Though I still have my doubts, it has been suggested with some authority that memories viewed in a Pensieve are as objective as can be.

OK, now my approach here is to try to assess Lily's reactions to specific stimuli and balance those against what we know about her, about her past sympathies, and her future affiliations. In doing so I'm hoping some sort of indication emerges as to what her state of mind might have been when she walked away.

(It might also be important to clarify that although I'm discussing Snape and James as my nominal "sides" being taken, this is in no way a scenario of pitting James against Snape except where it concerns Lily's identifiable feelings.)

To begin with, Lily enters the scene by shouting at James to leave Snape alone. She does this twice, and according to the narrator, she looks at him "with every sign of great dislike" as James assumes a flirtatious manner. The emphasis of the scene then subtly shifts away from Snape, who is literally in the background of the action, and we have a back and forth between James and Lily during which James says variously provocative and flirtatious things, and Lily admonishes and insults him. Whether we choose to interpret Lily's attitude as real hostility toward James, concern for her friend, or what I'll call "daunger" (a concept I'm borrowing from medieval romances--like a combination of indifference and playing hard to get), up until this point Lily is firmly not in the James camp.

But then something interesting happens. Snape is freed from his impediment jinx, and he counterattacks. According to the narrative, when Snape is levicorpused, "Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile, said, 'Let him down!'" While she is continuing in her original purpose to defend Snape, she is also either now amused by what James is doing, or perhaps betraying her actual feelings for James, i.e., not "great dislike."

Her anger is renewed again, however, but very significantly only when Sirius begins picking on Snape: I might remind you that moments earlier when James hexes Snape Lily falters in her resolve, but when Sirius, a boy not interested in her romantically, begins to torment Snape again, she remembers why she spoke up in the first place. It is, after all, James who releases Snape from the spell, at Lily's specific demand. And then we get the Mudblood comment.

Here Lily flips entirely from what appears to have been her original attitude. After taking a moment, and blinking, she says, "I'd wash your pants if I were you, Snivellus." While her anger is perfectly understandable, her specific choice of words here is remarkable not because it insults Snape, but because it sounds oddly like something James would say.

After this, as James insists that Snape apologize--defending Lily's honor, as it were--Lily renders a fairly invective description of James' behavior, and tells him point blank, "You make me SICK." The question I might pose is why, if she dislikes James so much, does she know and understand him with such specificity and accuracy? I'm not saying there's no good answer for this question, and I can think of several. It just makes me wonder if the impetus for their relationship was entirely that James changed, or if it did involve the conflict between James and Snape somehow, in that Lily felt honor-bound to dislike James, even if at times there are signs that she did not entirely hate him. What I mean is, once she no longer felt obligated to defend Snape, I suspect her view of James' behavior must have softened somewhat, as it did in this scene when she nearly found him amusing, and again when she emulated him in insulting Snape.

I suppose I have no real answers to whether Lily "sided with the bullies." But I think if we interpret the title "Snape's Worst Memory" as the moment when Snape realized Lily did like James, and would never like him, it's clear to me that she was probably well beyond having much sympathy for Snape or his group of friends by the time he says "Mudblood." Considering how much of the scene focuses on James and Lily and how they interact, I think the issue of bullying is just a coincidence, and the real heart of the matter is that Lily has for the first time sided against Snape, which some day will permit her to side with James.

The question is though, did she really not take sides? I mean, I'm not suggesting otherwise, but talking generally, and I wonder how we might analyze that scene itself if the question is whether Lily actually takes herself out of the equation. I suppose we'll have to assume that the memory record itself is reliable. Though I still have my doubts, it has been suggested with some authority that memories viewed in a Pensieve are as objective as can be.

The authority is JKR herself.

The question is though, did she really not take sides? I mean, I'm not suggesting otherwise, but talking generally, and I wonder how we might analyze that scene itself if the question is whether Lily actually takes herself out of the equation. I suppose we'll have to assume that the memory record itself is reliable. Though I still have my doubts, it has been suggested with some authority that memories viewed in a Pensieve are as objective as can be.

The authority is JKR herself.

The authority is JKR herself, but as readers and fans we can interpret what we think was going on because the likelyhood of finding out JKR's intentions with the scene is not very good.

I agree that, given what we know of how pensieves and memories viewed through them work that they appear to be fairly objective accounts of the moment being viewed (the only tampering we see in canon is Slughorn's memory of Tom Riddle and that seemed pretty obvious though perhaps a more powerful wizard could have done it better...)

(It might also be important to clarify that although I'm discussing Snape and James as my nominal "sides" being taken, this is in no way a scenario of pitting James against Snape except where it concerns Lily's identifiable feelings.)

I'm going to start including clarifications like this in my posts, I'm tired of having them deleted for breaking a rule I didn't think I was breaking :grumble:

This clarification stand for my post, too.

To begin with, Lily enters the scene by shouting at James to leave Snape alone. She does this twice, and according to the narrator, she looks at him "with every sign of great dislike" as James assumes a flirtatious manner. The emphasis of the scene then subtly shifts away from Snape, who is literally in the background of the action, and we have a back and forth between James and Lily during which James says variously provocative and flirtatious things, and Lily admonishes and insults him. Whether we choose to interpret Lily's attitude as real hostility toward James, concern for her friend, or what I'll call "daunger" (a concept I'm borrowing from medieval romances--like a combination of indifference and playing hard to get), up until this point Lily is firmly not in the James camp.

I agree for the most part. James's bullying does not impress her, she is not amused by it, and she takes a stand against it, something nobody else in the area does.

I'd like to offer another option for the actions that afternoon. It's clear that James didn't like Snape, from the moment they met they got off to a bad start and it seems to only have gotten worse over time. His bullying of Snape can be viewed strictly as such: bullying a boy he doesn't like. But! Did he also know that if he began bullying Snape he'd get the chance to interact with Lily, a girl he had a crush on? Was that also a motivating factor is his bullying of Snape? i think it might have been at least part of it.

Lily, likewise, might have been simply standing up for her friend (assuming that the 'mudblood' calling was really the straw that broke the camels back), but might also have been using her defense of Snape to interact with a boy she herself had a crush on. It seemed like Lily and James interacted mostly when they were arguing about something, fighting about something or when Lily was defending Snape so she might have jumped at the opportunity to interact with her crush in those moments without seeming to betray her friend who wouldn't have approved of the crush and, in fact, would have probably been really upset if he knew she had a crush on him (James).

But then something interesting happens. Snape is freed from his impediment jinx, and he counterattacks. According to the narrative, when Snape is levicorpused, "Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile, said, 'Let him down!'" While she is continuing in her original purpose to defend Snape, she is also either now amused by what James is doing, or perhaps betraying her actual feelings for James, i.e., not "great dislike."

Lily's smile in this moment kind of baffles me. IMO I don't think it's very in-character with how she had been portrayed throughout The Prince's Tale memories. I don't know if it's a smile born of amused irony in Snape having his own spell used against him because we don't know if Lily knew he invented levicorpus, and even that doesn't seem entirely characteristic of her. =^/ The one thing I am sure of, though, is that I don't think it's a smile of approval at James's treatment of Snape.

Her anger is renewed again, however, but very significantly only when Sirius begins picking on Snape: I might remind you that moments earlier when James hexes Snape Lily falters in her resolve, but when Sirius, a boy not interested in her romantically, begins to torment Snape again, she remembers why she spoke up in the first place. It is, after all, James who releases Snape from the spell, at Lily's specific demand. And then we get the Mudblood comment.

This is part of the reason i think it likely that Lily had a crush on James - her anger is renewed both when her friend is continuing to be bullied, but, more tellinging, when that bullying is being done by someone other than James whom she might have been longing for interaction with. By Sirius stepping into the mix he's diverting her attention away from James who is, as I am proposing, the one she really wants to be dealing with in that moment. Her anger is born, then, of both true anger at them bullying her friend and annoyance that she can no longer deal only with James in resolving the issue.

It is, after all, James who releases Snape from the spell, at Lily's specific demand. And then we get the Mudblood comment.

Here Lily flips entirely from what appears to have been her original attitude. After taking a moment, and blinking, she says, "I'd wash your pants if I were you, Snivellus." While her anger is perfectly understandable, her specific choice of words here is remarkable not because it insults Snape, but because it sounds oddly like something James would say.

This is where i start to slightly disagree. I think her use of the nickname 'Snivellus' is because it's a clever, existing nickname she likely knew Snape hated. She was retaliating in this moment against Snape personally by using the nickname his nemesis had given him which would do double damage to Snape; she'd hurt him personally like he hurt her personally and he would interpret this as her 'taking James's side' by using the nickname he (or Sirius??) invented for him. It's important to distinguish, I think, between what Lily's motives for using "Snivellus" were and how Snape would interpret these motives.

After this, as James insists that Snape apologize--defending Lily's honor, as it were--Lily renders a fairly invective description of James' behavior, and tells him point blank, "You make me SICK." The question I might pose is why, if she dislikes James so much, does she know and understand him with such specificity and accuracy? I'm not saying there's no good answer for this question, and I can think of several. It just makes me wonder if the impetus for their relationship was entirely that James changed, or if it did involve the conflict between James and Snape somehow, in that Lily felt honor-bound to dislike James, even if at times there are signs that she did not entirely hate him. What I mean is, once she no longer felt obligated to defend Snape, I suspect her view of James' behavior must have softened somewhat, as it did in this scene when she nearly found him amusing, and again when she emulated him in insulting Snape.

I whole heartedly agree that Lily probably felt honor-bound to dislike James - similar to the phrase "my enemy's enemy is my friend," I'd say rather this is a case of Lily thinking "my friend's enemy must be my enemy." I think during the first five years of them "living in the same house" she would have seen that James was not entirely a bad person but felt that if she thought anything like that that she would be betraying Snape in some way. I also whole-heartedly agree that Lily no longer felt honor-bound to hate James once her and Snape's friendship was ended in the spring of her fifth year. In this case she and James had the whole of their sixth year to reinvent their relationship - what was once adversarily fighting might have become flirtatious banter, laying the groundwork for them getting together at the start of their seventh year.

I suppose I have no real answers to whether Lily "sided with the bullies." But I think if we interpret the title "Snape's Worst Memory" as the moment when Snape realized Lily did like James, and would never like him, it's clear to me that she was probably well beyond having much sympathy for Snape or his group of friends by the time he says "Mudblood." Considering how much of the scene focuses on James and Lily and how they interact, I think the issue of bullying is just a coincidence, and the real heart of the matter is that Lily has for the first time sided against Snape, which some day will permit her to side with James.

I still am not convinced that Lily "sided with the enemy" though I do think Snape would have interpreted it in that way, and I also don't entirely agree with the title "Snape's Worst Memory" being linked to the moment Snape realized Lily liked James. To a very tiny degree it might have been but I think it's more his worst memory because this moment is clearly marked as either the end of the beginning of the end of their friendship (depending on people's interpretation of how badly their friendship had been damaged before this moment)

Interesting review of the moment, though, Canis, I enjoyed reading it. =^)

Here Lily flips entirely from what appears to have been her original attitude. After taking a moment, and blinking, she says, "I'd wash your pants if I were you, Snivellus." While her anger is perfectly understandable, her specific choice of words here is remarkable not because it insults Snape, but because it sounds oddly like something James would say.


Lily flips from her original attitude after Snape threw the worst racial epithet in the wizarding world at her. She had been betrayed. Her "friend" had just told her she was subhuman filth. It's not surprising that her attitude changes. She was probably feeling betrayed, humiliated, hurt, angry. Yes, she flipped from defending Snape and chose instead to stand up for herself.

She should probably have stopped at "I won't bother in future". But, she had been hurt and betrayed by her "friend" - whom she had defended to everyone, including right now in front of their whole year. Yes, she threw an insult at Snape -but why is that necessarily comparable something that James would do? According to Slughorn, Lily was cheeky - I think it's possible she was quite ready with insults for those who insulted her. I doubt it was the first time someone had called her a mudblood, given the war going on. Perhaps she learned early on to throw something back at them.

What I mean is, once she no longer felt obligated to defend Snape, I suspect her view of James' behavior must have softened somewhat, as it did in this scene when she nearly found him amusing, and again when she emulated him in insulting Snape.

I don't think she found James' behaviour amusing. I tend to think she found it amusing that Snape was being hoist by his own petard. Especially if they'd disagreed about that spell.

I do think she felt more free to think well of James after the friendship with Snape ended. Not automatically, at the time she considered them both equally bad. But, over time, perhaps during their sixth year, she would have been able to see James as an individual, rather than nothing more than Snape's nemesis.

I suppose I have no real answers to whether Lily "sided with the bullies." But I think if we interpret the title "Snape's Worst Memory" as the moment when Snape realized Lily did like James, and would never like him, it's clear to me that she was probably well beyond having much sympathy for Snape or his group of friends by the time he says "Mudblood."

Lily didn't have much sympathy for Snape's wannabe DE friends anyway - she considered them "creepy". And I think there was little reason for her to have sympathy for Snape after he threw racial abuse at her.

IMO, Snape's Worst Memory is so titled because of what he did. Not because of what Lily did. He threw away Lily's friendship. His own actions cost him Lily's friendship.

Considering how much of the scene focuses on James and Lily and how they interact, I think the issue of bullying is just a coincidence, and the real heart of the matter is that Lily has for the first time sided against Snape, which some day will permit her to side with James.

Lily did not side against Snape -she objected to being a target of racism. She wasn't going to let anybody treat her like that. She wasn't a doormat and she refused to lay down and be walked all over. I don't think that objecting to Snape's racist abuse constitutes siding against Snape - I think it's taking a stand for herself.

Perhaps, in this incident, one could consider objecting to racist abuse as siding against Snape, but in that case, the only self-respecting thing to do would be to side against the person throwing racial abuse at her.

I also whole-heartedly agree that Lily no longer felt honor-bound to hate James once her and Snape's friendship was ended in the spring of her fifth year. In this case she and James had the whole of their sixth year to reinvent their relationship - what was once adversarily fighting might have become flirtatious banter, laying the groundwork for them getting together at the start of their seventh year.

I agree. I think it meant that she could start to see James as more than just "Snape's adversary".

Lily flips from her original attitude after Snape threw the worst racial epithet in the wizarding world at her.
Yes, I did actually write that, but I am always happy to have reminders. :) I was commenting on her choice of words, not on whether she should have been angry or not.

Yes, I did actually write that, but I am always happy to have reminders. :) I was commenting on her choice of words, not on whether she should have been angry or not.

:D Yes, but I think the circumstances are important -Lily was betrayed, it was not an arbitray decision to stop defending Snape. It's not just Lily happening to inexplicably change her attitude towards Snape. Bearing in mind what Snape did to Lily, it's quite self-explanatory that her attitude changed - it's not just a "flip" of attitude - it's a change of circumstance, it's an eye-opener for Lily.
And as Lily was cheeky, according to Slughorn, and had likely experienced people throwing that word at her before, I think that her readiness with an insult had nothing to do with James. She used an existing rude nickname for Snape, as GoddessClio mentions, and yes, it was one James or Sirius came up with, but I think that throwing cheek at someone demeaning her to that extent was all Lily.

:D Yes, but I think the circumstances are important -Lily was betrayed, it was not an arbitray decision to stop defending Snape. It's not just Lily happening to inexplicably change her attitude towards Snape. Bearing in mind what Snape did to Lily, it's quite self-explanatory that her attitude changed - it's not just a "flip" of attitude - it's a change of circumstance, it's an eye-opener for Lily.

And as Lily was cheeky, according to Slughorn, and had likely experienced people throwing that word at her before, I think that her readiness with an insult had nothing to do with James. She used an existing rude nickname for Snape, as GoddessClio mentions, and yes, it was one James or Sirius came up with, but I think that throwing cheek at someone demeaning her to that extent was all Lily.
The thing is though, I'm more interested (in this thread anyway) in how this scene develops James and Lily's relationship than what it does to hers and Snape's--which lord knows we've all talked to death over the years, and which I think we agree was continually doomed by Snape's earlier and later actions.

What I don't see was this moment as an eye-opener for Lily--I think she was making a choice here, not passively responding to stimuli. Given that all of the information played out so dramatically was already available to her--Snape's ideology and James's personality--I think it is all a matter of her agency. Without a more complex understanding of her reactions than simple outrage at being called a name, I don't think she really has much.

The thing is though, I'm more interested (in this thread anyway) in how this scene develops James and Lily's relationship than what it does to hers and Snape's--which lord knows we've all talked to death over the years, and which I think we agree was continually doomed by Snape's earlier and later actions.

I think this scene has some impact on Lily and James' relationship. I think he took to heart her criticism that he was "just as bad" as the guy who threw racist slurs. I think that may have given him pause to reflect, eventually.

Lily may have found James attractive, or seen some positives to his behaviour at other times, but she found his bullying completely unacceptable. She may have found him attractive, but that wasn't enough - she wanted someone whose choices and behaviour she could respect. I think, if she did find him attractive, she may have been annoyed at herself for finding attractive someone whose behaviour was so off-putting.

What I don't see was this moment as an eye-opener for Lily--I think she was making a choice here, not passively responding to stimuli. Given that all of the information played out so dramatically was already available to her--Snape's ideology and James's personality--I think it is all a matter of her agency.

I think it was an eye-opener for Lily. Yes, the information about Snape's ideology was there to be seen, but I think she was lying to herself before that day. Before this, she'd been kidding herself about the path Snape was taking. She was kidding herself that he wasn't becoming like Mulciber and Avery, that he wasn't too far gone. She was kidding herself that he would listen to her.
I think she realised then, that she wasn't respected by her friend, that he wanted to have her in his life and also the people who considered her scum. I think she realised that she was an exception to the prejudices he was embracing. I think the blinkers came off and she could no longer live in denial.

I agree that she was making a choice, though. She chose not to passively accept being a target of racism. She chose not to be in a friendship with someone who racially abused her.

Without a more complex understanding of her reactions than simple outrage at being called a name, I don't think she really has much.

I don't think it was as basic as simple outrage. I think she felt hurt, humiliated and betrayed as well as angry. And I don't think it can be reduced to just a name. The meaning and implications of that word are deeply offensive. I think the context is also important - the war, people of Lily's birth being targetted and murdered, people who use that term supporting such hate-crimes. I think it would have had a huge effect on Lily to hear someone she cared for and trusted throwing something so deeply offensive and prejudiced at her - far moreso than if it had come from a DE wannabe that she didn't know or care for or trust.
I also tend to think he was lucky all she did was insult him in return. If Ron or Harry had done that to Hermione, I reckon they would have been lucky if they only needed the hospital wing and not St. Mungos.

Continued from the Snape thread:

I have to strongly disagree. Unless Lily was a mind reader, she did not "definitely know" anything other than Severus had friends in the House he'd been sorted into who were Death Eater wanna-be's.

It's indicated or alluded to a couple times that Snape was an avid follower of Voldemort, he kept a scrapbook of Voldemort's press clippings or something. He arrived at school knowing more curses than the seventh years (or something to that effect) and I don't believe for one second that Lily didn't know about his prediliction towards the dark arts. If she knew he already had this prediliction, was sorted into a house where he would then be surrounded by people with similar predilictions and became chummy with people who might not have made a big secret of the fact that they wanted to be death eaters, why would she not think Snape would, likewise, want to join? All his friends are doing it. He's followed Voldemort for years, looked up to him like an idol.

Yes, he had "little Death Eater friends," he was in Slytherin House and they had befriended him.

Then, to Lily, they would have been "his little Slytherin friends" not "his little Death Eater friends".

We know he was sorry, but there is no indication in any of the books that he tried to apologize during the summer after the Mudblood Incident. I don't see him even making the attempt because he knew Lily well enough to know she'd just shoot him down, again.

I disagree. Lily is described as being uncommonly kind and she might have thought it the kind and caring thing to do, if Snape approached her after some time to apologize, to hear him out. Whether she would forgive him or not is up in the air but if he had made the effort to approach her I think she would have let him speak at least.

Continued from the Snape thread:It's indicated or alluded to a couple times that Snape was an avid follower of Voldemort, he kept a scrapbook of Voldemort's press clippings or something.

I think you are confusing Snape with Regulus Black, who did have a bunch of Voldemort press clippings.

He arrived at school knowing more curses than the seventh years (or something to that effect) and I don't believe for one second that Lily didn't know about his prediliction towards the dark arts. If she knew he already had this prediliction, was sorted into a house where he would then be surrounded by people with similar predilictions and became chummy with people who might not have made a big secret of the fact that they wanted to be death eaters, why would she not think Snape would, likewise, want to join? All his friends are doing it. He's followed Voldemort for years, looked up to him like an idol.

I'm not sure yet what the conversation was in the Snape thread, I'll go read it later. But Lily says she thinks Snape wants to join the Death Eaters, and I figure any character knows their own opinion best. So, I'd say that from Lily's perspective it was evident that Snape wanted to join the Death Eaters-- from Snape joining the Death Eater Wannabe gang to his finding the Dark Arts funny to his calling Muggleborns-- including her-- "Mudblood", I'd say she saw plenty of evidence to form that conclusion.

Then, to Lily, they would have been "his little Slytherin friends" not "his little Death Eater friends".

Lily never says anything about Slytherin House. Her objection is specific, and is about Voldemort and the Death Eaters.

Then, to Lily, they would have been "his little Slytherin friends" not "his little Death Eater friends".

I agree. Lily's objection was to Snape hanging around with wannabe DEs -dangerous people like Mulciber and Avery. She never expressed any objection to Slytherins. The wannabe DE group are not synonymous with Slytherin House .

I disagree. Lily is described as being uncommonly kind and she might have thought it the kind and caring thing to do, if Snape approached her after some time to apologize, to hear him out. Whether she would forgive him or not is up in the air but if he had made the effort to approach her I think she would have let him speak at least.

Lily might have forgiven Snape if he'd approached her at another time. For all we know, she might have forgiven him anyway at some time between then and her death. Forgiveness doesn't mean jumping back into an unhealthy relationship and condoning things that are against all of your values. She might have forgiven him and let go of the past and the hurt. It doesn't mean she was going to trust him again, knowing what path he was taking.

I'm not sure yet what the conversation was in the Snape thread, I'll go read it later. But Lily says she thinks Snape wants to join the Death Eaters, and I figure any character knows their own opinion best. So, I'd say that from Lily's perspective it was evident that Snape wanted to join the Death Eaters-- from Snape joining the Death Eater Wannabe gang to his finding the Dark Arts funny to his calling Muggleborns-- including her-- "Mudblood", I'd say she saw plenty of evidence to form that conclusion.

I agree. There was enough going on, enough signs from Snape's behaviour for Lily to see where he was headed. It wasn't something she could condone or have any part of. Especially considering the situation the wizarding world was in at the time, throwing racial slurs at Muggleborns said a lot, and condoning dark magic said a lot.

Lily never says anything about Slytherin House. Her objection is specific, and is about Voldemort and the Death Eaters.

A reasonable objection, IMO. :D

Continued from the Snape thread:


It's indicated or alluded to a couple times that Snape was an avid follower of Voldemort, he kept a scrapbook of Voldemort's press clippings or something. He arrived at school knowing more curses than the seventh years (or something to that effect) and I don't believe for one second that Lily didn't know about his prediliction towards the dark arts. If she knew he already had this prediliction, was sorted into a house where he would then be surrounded by people with similar predilictions and became chummy with people who might not have made a big secret of the fact that they wanted to be death eaters, why would she not think Snape would, likewise, want to join? All his friends are doing it. He's followed Voldemort for years, looked up to him like an idol.

I must have missed that. I don't remember reading about a scrapbook of Voldemort clippings. Could you provide canon for that, please?

The statement that he arrived at school knowing more dark magic than a seventh year came from Sirius, hardly an objective source.

Yes, Lily knew that he was interested in the Dark Arts. But, why? There's never an explanation. DADA teachers and Aurors need to know about the Dark Arts. Dumbledore was interested in the Dark Arts as a young man, and he turned out OK.

Again, could you provide canon that Severus idolized Voldemort as a fifth year, or anytime while he and Lily were friends?

Then, to Lily, they would have been "his little Slytherin friends" not "his little Death Eater friends".

To her, and many others, they seemed to be one and the same. To be a Slytherin was to be a potential DE. There definitely seemed to be a prejudice against Slytherin House, although I'm pretty sure not all Slytherins were DE wanna-be's. I am pretty sure any who disagreed with the majority would have kept quiet in fear of their safety. So, they would have been hard to identify.

I disagree. Lily is described as being uncommonly kind and she might have thought it the kind and caring thing to do, if Snape approached her after some time to apologize, to hear him out. Whether she would forgive him or not is up in the air but if he had made the effort to approach her I think she would have let him speak at least.

When you're an outcast werewolf and someone is kind to you, I'm sure you're going to refer to them as "uncommonly kind."

Also, IMO, Lily had wanted to be rid of her friendship with Severus for a long time. In their 5th year she tells him she has been making excuses for him for years -- that her "friends" don't understand why she even talks to him...so what does that make him? He was suppose to be, by her own admission, her "best" friend, and she's saying her friends have been trying to get her to dump him for years. I think the Mudblood incident gave her that chance and she wouldn't have made up with him no matter what.

If she was "uncommonly kind" why couldn't she take into consideration the torment (Harry's word) that Severus had endured prior to yelling that word? Did that not have any impact on her?

Lily shouldn't have to take anything into account when someone calls her a mudblood. There is no excuse for it. It's a dirty word and it hurts. Words do hurt.

Lily shouldn't have to take anything into account when someone calls her a mudblood. There is no excuse for it. It's a dirty word and it hurts. Words do hurt.
As much as I agree with your sentiment, I do not believe she was really hurt by what he said itself. As much as we all in the real world understand what racial slurs are and how hurtful they can be, I still don't see anything in her behavior to indicate that she, the strong, cheeky, infinitely determined woman, was especially upset about being called a mudblood.

After all, she must have been aware of Snape's political views before that moment, or her earlier and later comments don't make much sense. What it seems to me is that in Snape's Worst Memory she realized something like, "god, that's it, he's just not going to change." I think the real betrayal from her point of view is that Snape has finally proved he has never listened to her, that he doesn't value with her opinions, and that regardless of what he might say, she can't trust him again. She may have come to realize this on her own at some point, but the fact that Snape made it so plainly, publicly, viciously clear must have been upsetting.

When you're an outcast werewolf and someone is kind to you, I'm sure you're going to refer to them as "uncommonly kind."

Also, IMO, Lily had wanted to be rid of her friendship with Severus for a long time. In their 5th year she tells him she has been making excuses for him for years -- that her "friends" don't understand why she even talks to him...so what does that make him? He was suppose to be, by her own admission, her "best" friend, and she's saying her friends have been trying to get her to dump him for years. I think the Mudblood incident gave her that chance and she wouldn't have made up with him no matter what.

If she was "uncommonly kind" why couldn't she take into consideration the torment (Harry's word) that Severus had endured prior to yelling that word? Did that not have any impact on her?

Given the context of Snape's story arc, the "excuses" Lily made to her friends would have been trying to defend Snape despite his interest in Dark Magic and being friends with people who were known to have interest in joining Voldemort.

(Of course, this all depends on whether we believe statements from Lupin and Sirius to be "biased" and whether or not Snape's interest in the Dark Arts in considered canon fact. IMO, given that this is a story told from Harry's POV, the only way we can get information about the past is to trust the words from our characters unless said statements have been proven false.)

I know I'm derailing a bit from Lily, but I wanted to explain this to show how and why Lily's departure from Snape happened and why it makes sense story wise. The reasons, IMO, have been displayed in other areas of the books and not just The Prince's Tale chapter.

Now as a character/fictional person, whether or not Lily made the best decision in breaking off from Snape the way she did is another debate. Does this show how cruel she was? Is this something a nice person would do? IMO, a person can still be kind hearted but should still take care of themselves and not be taken advantage of. Snape had delving into things that Lily thought were wrong and against her principles for quite some time. Being around someone like that would be harmful to Lily also because supporters of Voldemort hated people like Lily. IMO, given that her friendship with Snape was harmful both physically and emotionally for her, I think she made the right decision to break away from Snape.

As much as I agree with your sentiment, I do not believe she was really hurt by what he said itself. As much as we all in the real world understand what racial slurs are and how hurtful they can be, I still don't see anything in her behavior to indicate that she, the strong, cheeky, infinitely determined woman, was especially upset about being called a mudblood.
By that token there's nothing there to prove she wasn't hurt. If she says she was we have to believe it since that's all we have to go on.

Yes, Lily knew that he was interested in the Dark Arts. But, why? There's never an explanation. DADA teachers and Aurors need to know about the Dark Arts. Dumbledore was interested in the Dark Arts as a young man, and he turned out OK.

There is a massive difference between a DADA teacher or Auror being interested in Dark Arts and someone who condones Dark Arts being interested in them. DADA teachers and Aurors learn about Dark Arts so they can work against them. Dark wizards like Death Eaters learn about Dark Arts to cause harm.
The Dark Arts are something negative in the HP series. That's why Hogwarts teaches "Defence against the Dark Arts" and not "Dark Arts"
Snape was not interested in fighting against the Dark Arts, he was interested in practicing them as a DE. This was what Lily objected to.

To her, and many others, they seemed to be one and the same. To be a Slytherin was to be a potential DE. There definitely seemed to be a prejudice against Slytherin House, although I'm pretty sure not all Slytherins were DE wanna-be's. I am pretty sure any who disagreed with the majority would have kept quiet in fear of their safety. So, they would have been hard to identify.

Can you give any canon to say that Lily considered Slytherin and wannabe-DE to be synonyms?

Also, IMO, Lily had wanted to be rid of her friendship with Severus for a long time. In their 5th year she tells him she has been making excuses for him for years -- that her "friends" don't understand why she even talks to him...so what does that make him? He was suppose to be, by her own admission, her "best" friend, and she's saying her friends have been trying to get her to dump him for years. I think the Mudblood incident gave her that chance and she wouldn't have made up with him no matter what.

There is no canon to suggest that Lily had wanted to end the friendship with Snape for any length of time prior to him throwing racist abuse at her.
Lily's friends were concerned for her - of course they were, she was hanging out with a wannabe-DE. I see their concerns as being just like Lily's concerns for Snape, in hanging out with Mulciber and Avery. Nobody wants to see their friends being dragged down by people who are trouble. A true friend advises someone when they are making a mistake - just as Lily tried to warn Snape about his dangerous friends.

If she was "uncommonly kind" why couldn't she take into consideration the torment (Harry's word) that Severus had endured prior to yelling that word? Did that not have any impact on her?

There's no justification for using that word. Lily had tried to help Snape when he was being bullied, and he threw that back in her face with racial abuse. There are no circumstances under which it's acceptable to throw racist epithets.

Uncommonly kind does not equal doormat. It does not equal a person who puts up with racial abuse and does not hold the perpetrator accountable. That's not kindness, that's unhealthy, IMO.

As much as I agree with your sentiment, I do not believe she was really hurt by what he said itself. As much as we all in the real world understand what racial slurs are and how hurtful they can be, I still don't see anything in her behavior to indicate that she, the strong, cheeky, infinitely determined woman, was especially upset about being called a mudblood.

Why would she not be upset? This was her so-called friend throwing the worst racial slur in the wizarding world at her. Why does Lily's strength and determination mean she couldn't be hurt by racism? :hmm:
I doubt it was the first time Lily had been called a "mudblood", but this time it was someone she cared about and trusted who had thrown a racist epithet at her. Looking at Hermione as a comparison - when Malfoy calls Hermione a "mudblood" , after she knows what it means, she doesn't care, because Malfoy isn't someone she cares about and trusts. Likewise, I think Lily could handle racist insults from people like Mulciber, because she didn't give a hoot what they thought of her.

There's also the context of the war - every taunt of "mudblood" would have been a reminder that there were people who considered her subhuman filth, and who were doing something about it - that people were at that time murdering people of her birth. It's not just a word, there's a lot weighted behind that word, especially during the war, and to hear a friend throwing such racism is something I imagine was very hurtful for Lily.

After all, she must have been aware of Snape's political views before that moment, or her earlier and later comments don't make much sense. What it seems to me is that in Snape's Worst Memory she realized something like, "god, that's it, he's just not going to change." I think the real betrayal from her point of view is that Snape has finally proved he has never listened to her, that he doesn't value with her opinions, and that regardless of what he might say, she can't trust him again. She may have come to realize this on her own at some point, but the fact that Snape made it so plainly, publicly, viciously clear must have been upsetting.

I think Lily was kidding herself prior to SWM - she was kidding herself that Snape wasn't going down the same road as Mulciber and Avery, that he wasn't as bad as them. I think she received a sharp wake-up call when he threw racist abuse at her.


Now as a character/fictional person, whether or not Lily made the best decision in breaking off from Snape the way she did is another debate. Does this show how cruel she was? Is this something a nice person would do? IMO, a person can still be kind hearted but should still take care of themselves and not be taken advantage of.

I agree. Kind does not equal doormat. Nor does it mean allowing your "friends" to treat you with utter disrespect and racial abuse. I agree that a person can be kind but also respect themselves and stand up for themselves.

Snape had delving into things that Lily thought were wrong and against her principles for quite some time. Being around someone like that would be harmful to Lily also because supporters of Voldemort hated people like Lily. IMO, given that her friendship with Snape was harmful both physically and emotionally for her, I think she made the right decision to break away from Snape.

I agree. Lily could not have anyone who supported Voldemort in her life - morally and for her safety and self-respect.

I disagree. Lily is described as being uncommonly kind and she might have thought it the kind and caring thing to do, if Snape approached her after some time to apologize, to hear him out.

This description of Lily is movieverse. :) Movie Remus refers to Lily in PoA as being 'uncommonly kind.' It's a scene I like a great deal, but it's not actually canon, if I recall correctly. :cool:

As much as I agree with your sentiment, I do not believe she was really hurt by what he said itself. As much as we all in the real world understand what racial slurs are and how hurtful they can be, I still don't see anything in her behavior to indicate that she, the strong, cheeky, infinitely determined woman, was especially upset about being called a mudblood.

The clue is right there in the text, IMO. After Snape has just made his remark about 'filthy little Mudbloods like her', Lily 'blinks' (obviously shocked) and then quickly recovers herself, making a deliberately cutting remark about his underpants. It's certainly not a nice thing for her to say, but she'd just been insulted quite cruelly, by someone she had tried to defend, someone moreover she had once regarded as a best friend.

Not reacting is how many people often respond to insults and taunting. It's a deliberate ploy. They choose not to betray their true emotions, to retain their dignity, and I think that is how Lily is reacting. It's a completely plausible psychological reaction. And then she gets her own back by insulting him in return. I wish she hadn't :shrug: but then I wish Severus hadn't let that awful word slip out of his mouth. :sigh:

After all, she must have been aware of Snape's political views before that moment, or her earlier and later comments don't make much sense. What it seems to me is that in Snape's Worst Memory she realized something like, "god, that's it, he's just not going to change." I think the real betrayal from her point of view is that Snape has finally proved he has never listened to her, that he doesn't value with her opinions, and that regardless of what he might say, she can't trust him again. She may have come to realize this on her own at some point, but the fact that Snape made it so plainly, publicly, viciously clear must have been upsetting.

I do agree with this. This is my understanding of the breakdown in Lily's friendship with Severus.

Also, IMO, Lily had wanted to be rid of her friendship with Severus for a long time. In their 5th year she tells him she has been making excuses for him for years -- that her "friends" don't understand why she even talks to him...so what does that make him? He was suppose to be, by her own admission, her "best" friend, and she's saying her friends have been trying to get her to dump him for years. I think the Mudblood incident gave her that chance and she wouldn't have made up with him no matter what.

When I first read DH, my immediate interpretation was that Lily had been 'making excuses' for Severus for years because she was unhappy about the company within Slytherin he was keeping, not because she cared for him less as a friend. Again, the author provides the clues in the conversation between Lily and Sev about Mulciber and Avery. Sev is very uncomfortable about what Lily is saying and tries to change the subject. She reiterates that she is his best friend but she simply can't understand why he hangs out with such awful people.

So I don't believe JKR intended to give the impression that Lily had started to despise Severus simply for being a Slytherin and was looking to dump him for those or similar reasons.

It's perhaps debatable how successful the author was in conveying all of this ... :whistle: It seems clear to me, but others seem to see it very differently.

The clue is right there in the text, IMO. After Snape has just made his remark about 'filthy little Mudbloods like her', Lily 'blinks' (obviously shocked) and then quickly recovers herself, making a deliberately cutting remark about his underpants. It's certainly not a nice thing for her to say, but she'd just been insulted quite cruelly, by someone she had tried to defend, someone moreover she had once regarded as a best friend.

It's not nice, but it's certainly not on a part with a loaded racist epithet. Personally, I think Lily had come to be ready to throw insults back at those racists at Hogwarts who called her a "mudblood". I see it as a defence mechanism - she wasn't going to let any racist see that she cared what they thought about her. She wasn't going to let any racist see her crying and pleading with them not to say such things.
I doubt Snape was the first, or the last, to throw racial abuse at Lily during the war.

I wish she hadn't :shrug: but then I wish Severus hadn't let that awful word slip out of his mouth. :sigh:

I think "slip out" is an interesting choice of phrase, but that's been discussed to death elsewhere.

Anyhow, I think Lily had a lucky escape that day. I think it was fortunate for her that Snape showed his true colours that day. I think it opened her eyes to what he was becoming. She could no longer lie to herself about him.
If Snape hadn't thrown a racist insult at Lily that day, what would it have changed? He would still have been hanging around with people like Mulciber and Avery. He would still have been bent on becoming important through a life of crime. Lily would still have been banging her head against a wall trying to persuade Snape that this wasn't a good thing. Perhaps then, she wouldn't have opened her eyes to what was going on until he showed up with a Dark Mark, expecting her to be impressed. Or, more likely, the bigotry would have emerged some other time he was angry/upset/stressed/whatever.

That racist insult was not the whole of the problem - it was a symptom, and it was this symptom that led to Lily coming to her senses about the path Snape was taking and his lack of respect for her. When Lily realised this, she made the choice to have nothing more to do with him - for the sake of her values, her self-respect and her safety.

She reiterates that she is his best friend but she simply can't understand why he hangs out with such awful people.

Which says to me that, at that time, she considered him a better person than Mulciber and Avery. She didn't want him hanging out with people who were trouble. Personally, I tend to think that a good friend will advise you against getting involved in crime, not support you in it.

I'm not sure yet what the conversation was in the Snape thread, I'll go read it later. But Lily says she thinks Snape wants to join the Death Eaters, and I figure any character knows their own opinion best. So, I'd say that from Lily's perspective it was evident that Snape wanted to join the Death Eaters-- from Snape joining the Death Eater Wannabe gang to his finding the Dark Arts funny to his calling Muggleborns-- including her-- "Mudblood", I'd say she saw plenty of evidence to form that conclusion.

I agree. There was enough going on, enough signs from Snape's behaviour for Lily to see where he was headed. It wasn't something she could condone or have any part of. Especially considering the situation the wizarding world was in at the time, throwing racial slurs at Muggleborns said a lot, and condoning dark magic said a lot.

I see what my problem is: all my Snape allies are here in the lily thread! :D

I must have missed that. I don't remember reading about a scrapbook of Voldemort clippings. Could you provide canon for that, please?

OldMotherCrow corrected me: I was misremembering Regulus as Snape. Regulus was the one that kept the scrapbook.

The statement that he arrived at school knowing more dark magic than a seventh year came from Sirius, hardly an objective source.

I agree, Sirius isn't an objective source, but being someone on the receiving end of the curses Snape might or might not have known in his first year, I'm inclined to believe Sirius. And as others throughout the forums have said, if we are to believe anything said about the past then we must then believe that what we are told about the past is true. Hence: What Sirius says is true.

Yes, Lily knew that he was interested in the Dark Arts. But, why? There's never an explanation. DADA teachers and Aurors need to know about the Dark Arts. Dumbledore was interested in the Dark Arts as a young man, and he turned out OK.

DADA teachers and aurors definitely need to know about the Dark Arts in order to effectively perform their jobs. How much does an 11-year-old need to know about the dark arts, really? It wasn't presented in the books like Snape's interest in the dark arts was because his life long dream was to become an auror.

And Dumbledore turning out okay was due to the fact that his sister was killed by his best friend and co-conspirator. just like Snape turning out okay was more or less due to the fact that Lily was killed by the man whom Snape had joined.

Again, could you provide canon that Severus idolized Voldemort as a fifth year, or anytime while he and Lily were friends?

Not on topic for Lily so I won't answer it here...

Also, IMO, Lily had wanted to be rid of her friendship with Severus for a long time. In their 5th year she tells him she has been making excuses for him for years -- that her "friends" don't understand why she even talks to him...so what does that make him? He was suppose to be, by her own admission, her "best" friend, and she's saying her friends have been trying to get her to dump him for years. I think the Mudblood incident gave her that chance and she wouldn't have made up with him no matter what.

Lily making excuses for him for years to her own batch of friends shows me that she was stubbornly holding onto her friendship with Snape despite the fact that her friends (and maybe even Lily herself) saw the relationship as toxic and needing to end.

If she was "uncommonly kind" why couldn't she take into consideration the torment (Harry's word) that Severus had endured prior to yelling that word? Did that not have any impact on her?

If you were defending your best friend and they hauled off and called you the most offensive thing possible you'd be angry with them too. She was taking into consideration the actions against him in the moments prior because she came over and stood up for him in the first place - then he goes and calls her the single worst thing he could have called her and she probably began wondering why she was standing up for a so-called friend when he has no qualms about slandering her in front of the entirety of the fifth-year class. She was standing up for herself.

As much as I agree with your sentiment, I do not believe she was really hurt by what he said itself. As much as we all in the real world understand what racial slurs are and how hurtful they can be, I still don't see anything in her behavior to indicate that she, the strong, cheeky, infinitely determined woman, was especially upset about being called a mudblood.

I agree but rather than saying she wasn't hurt by what he had said (I do think she would have stung from it) I'd say she was hurt more by the fact that he called her a mudblood in the first place since he was supposed to be her friend. she had spent so much time and energy defending him only to have him throw it all back in her face by calling her a mudblood.

After all, she must have been aware of Snape's political views before that moment, or her earlier and later comments don't make much sense. What it seems to me is that in Snape's Worst Memory she realized something like, "god, that's it, he's just not going to change." I think the real betrayal from her point of view is that Snape has finally proved he has never listened to her, that he doesn't value with her opinions, and that regardless of what he might say, she can't trust him again. She may have come to realize this on her own at some point, but the fact that Snape made it so plainly, publicly, viciously clear must have been upsetting.

I agree here also; SMW seems to be the moment of awakening for Lily to Snape's true character, that her attempts to sway his mind and lead him down the right or good path were useless and ineffectual and she had wasted her time defending him.

This description of Lily is movieverse. :) Movie Remus refers to Lily in PoA as being 'uncommonly kind.' It's a scene I like a great deal, but it's not actually canon, if I recall correctly. :cool:

Yes, I realized that shortly after I posted it, but she is repeatedly refered to as kind from a wide variety of people in the books. I henceforth rescind "uncommonly" but "kind" is still on the table. :D

I agree, Sirius isn't an objective source, but being someone on the receiving end of the curses Snape might or might not have known in his first year, I'm inclined to believe Sirius. And as others throughout the forums have said, if we are to believe anything said about the past then we must then believe that what we are told about the past is true. Hence: What Sirius says is true.

Answered on the Severus Snape Character Analysis Thread.

Yes, I realized that shortly after I posted it, but she is repeatedly refered to as kind from a wide variety of people in the books. I henceforth rescind "uncommonly" but "kind" is still on the table. :D

Actually, I don't think she is described as "kind" in the books that I recall. I could be wrong, though, so if you find a quote please let us know.

Of course she was kind where Harry was concerned, like all the other mothers in the story. And then she was ultimately courageous in protecting him as well. Motherly protection is by definition "kind," I suppose, but I don't remember anyone describing her that way.

Slughorn says she was vivacious, charming, and cheeky:

Your mother," Slughorn added, in answer to Harry’s questioning look. "Lily Evans. One of the brightest I ever taught. Vivacious, you know. Charming girl. I used to tell her she ought to have been in my House. Very cheeky answers I used to get back too."

And later he says she was a "dab hand at potions" and "intuitive" at it.

What you may be thinking about is that Hagrid and Harry both call her "decent" in OotP.

'Makes a diff'rence, havin' a decent family,' he (Hagrid) said. 'Me dad was decent. An' your mum an' dad were decent. If they'd lived, life woulda bin diff'rent, eh?'

Harry kept reminding himself that Lily had intervened; his mother had been decent.

Her kindness is implied by the fact that she befriended a neglected Severus as a boy, then tried to help him in one instance (although I feel it's debatable just how much he was helped). Of course, if someone is decent, then hopefully they will also considered kind, but it might not be an overwhelming trait. JMO

I see what my problem is: all my Snape allies are here in the lily thread! :D

:D

Lily making excuses for him for years to her own batch of friends shows me that she was stubbornly holding onto her friendship with Snape despite the fact that her friends (and maybe even Lily herself) saw the relationship as toxic and needing to end.

I agree. Lily's friends saw in Snape exactly what Lily saw in Snape's DE-wannabe pals, Mulciber and Avery. No true friend wants their friend to become involved with criminals and/or racists. I think "making excuses" shows that she had tried to defend Snape before this, but I think she now realised that it had been nothing but excuses.

She was standing up for herself.

:tu: Totally agree. Lily was refusing to let anybody, no matter who they were, throw racist abuse at her. She wasn't going to be a doormat, and she wasn't going to be a convenient target for anybody to vent their anger on.


Her kindness is implied by the fact that she befriended a neglected Severus as a boy, then tried to help him in one instance (although I feel it's debatable just how much he was helped).

Lily tried to help Snape when she was advising him against hanging out with thugs like Mulciber and Avery, as any friend would do. Unfortunately, he wasn't interested in her help in that regard.
And Lily had already helped Snape when he threw the worst racist slur at her. She had persuaded the Marauders to let him down, she had given them an earful, telling them off. I find it understandable that she left him to his own devices after he told her that he didn't want help from "filthy little mudbloods".
Lily's attempts to help Snape were thrown back in her face on more than one occasion.

The thing i don't like about Lily is that JKR portrays her as the perfect person in almost every way and has almost no flaws. I don't like that in any character.

The thing i don't like about Lily is that JKR portrays her as the perfect person in almost every way and has almost no flaws. I don't like that in any character.

I disagree.

Lily seemed to play hot and cold with Severus as a young girl.

She snoops in her sisters things (though to be fair I think all siblings do this, I certainly did and I know my sister did it to me :D)

As pointed out several times in this thread she is difficult to talk to when she's arguing about something she's passionate about which could be attributed to her simply being a passionate person or she's being obstinate and not willing to let her mind be changed, we can't say for sure.

She sticks to prejudices once they're formed - Without more information we can't say whether James gave her any reason to change her prejudice about him before seventh year.

She defended Snape to the ground despite her friends objections which can be seen as loyalty to Snape or pure stubbornness to give up on a potentially lost cause.

Even if these aren't true flaws they sure aren't virtues.

The thing i don't like about Lily is that JKR portrays her as the perfect person in almost every way and has almost no flaws. I don't like that in any character.

I don't think that JKR wrote Lily as a perfect person. The fact is that we aren't given that much information because very little of her is seen in the series. We hear bits of others' views of her, and a few glimpses in the pensieve memories. A snippet from Lupin which doesn't give us much (in OOTP when Harry first used Umbridge's fireplace to talk about Snape's worst memory); a couple comments from Slughorn. Not much to go on, but here are a couple things not perfect about Lily:


She reads Petunia's letter from Dumbledore without her permission

When Snape refers to her as a mudblood (Snape's worst memory), Lily counters with an insult back, calling him "Snivellus" as well

Lily, as well as James, didn't think to keep her wand handy while they were hiding from Voldemort

The thing i don't like about Lily is that JKR portrays her as the perfect person in almost every way and has almost no flaws. I don't like that in any character.Can you give us some examples? I think the whole "perfect person" persona is more fandom thing than anything in canon.

Can you give us some examples? I think the whole "perfect person" persona is more fandom thing than anything in canon.
I think the best we can really do is suppose that Harry never found anything about her to criticize. But with good reason, I think. I mean, looking at HedwigOwl's brief list of questionable moments in Lily's history, Harry may be excused for overlooking the implications:

She reads Petunia's letter from Dumbledore without her permission
When Snape refers to her as a mudblood (Snape's worst memory), Lily counters with an insult back, calling him "Snivellus" as well
Lily, as well as James, didn't think to keep her wand handy while they were hiding from Voldemort

In the first case, Harry only finds out about this when he's in the middle of the Battle of Hogwarts, so he naturally had other things on his mind. If he had, however, discovered more of the story behind Petunia's enmity, and known that Lily had once read a letter without permission, Petunia's cruel treatment more than overshadows a single minor transgression like invasion of privacy.

In the second case, Harry was explicitly distracted by the behavior of his father, and even if he had stopped for a moment to evaluate how his mother behaved at that particular moment, he would be justified in seeing "mudblood" as a much more hurtful insult. And given that he wasn't Snape's biggest fan at this time, he probably could have taken some pleasure knowing (without having the context) that his mother had stood up to his own and his father's personal nemesis.

And in the last case, he knows Lily sacrificed her life to protect him, so a relatively minor detail like why she didn't have a wand to fight back with may never have come up. Even if it had, wondering about it probably wouldn't have illuminated much since the evidence about that night was so scant to begin with.

So I suppose there's a mild irony that he knows things about his mother that have critical significance to his own life, but he is not aware of their real importance, while he knows some trivial details about his father but attaches a great deal of personal significance to them. So, that's why I say Harry perhaps idealizes his mother, both because he doesn't have enough information to form any different opinion, and because the opinions he has access to are across the board superlative. (Well maybe except for Voldemort's...)

I think the best we can really do is suppose that Harry never found anything about her to criticize. But with good reason, I think. I mean, looking at HedwigOwl's brief list of questionable moments in Lily's history, Harry may be excused for overlooking the implications:

She reads Petunia's letter from Dumbledore without her permission
When Snape refers to her as a mudblood (Snape's worst memory), Lily counters with an insult back, calling him "Snivellus" as well
Lily, as well as James, didn't think to keep her wand handy while they were hiding from Voldemort

In the first case, Harry only finds out about this when he's in the middle of the Battle of Hogwarts, so he naturally had other things on his mind. If he had, however, discovered more of the story behind Petunia's enmity, and known that Lily had once read a letter without permission, Petunia's cruel treatment more than overshadows a single minor transgression like invasion of privacy.

In the second case, Harry was explicitly distracted by the behavior of his father, and even if he had stopped for a moment to evaluate how his mother behaved at that particular moment, he would be justified in seeing "mudblood" as a much more hurtful insult. And given that he wasn't Snape's biggest fan at this time, he probably could have taken some pleasure knowing (without having the context) that his mother had stood up to his own and his father's personal nemesis.

And in the last case, he knows Lily sacrificed her life to protect him, so a relatively minor detail like why she didn't have a wand to fight back with may never have come up. Even if it had, wondering about it probably wouldn't have illuminated much since the evidence about that night was so scant to begin with.

So I suppose there's a mild irony that he knows things about his mother that have critical significance to his own life, but he is not aware of their real importance, while he knows some trivial details about his father but attaches a great deal of personal significance to them. So, that's why I say Harry perhaps idealizes his mother, both because he doesn't have enough information to form any different opinion, and because the opinions he has access to are across the board superlative. (Well maybe except for Voldemort's...)

Lily's imperfections were listed to refute her being portrayed as "perfect" in the series rather than Harry himself seeing her flaws. So, IMO, it's not a matter of him seeing her as "kind" or "decent" or "perfect," but the author portraying her as too good to be true.

Lily had several flaws and was far from portrayed as "perfect." I think that might be a fanfic image.

And, as for her giving her life to protect Harry: she was his mother and that would have been a mother's first instinct -- to protect her child. It was a wonderful and selfless thing to do, but look at Molly Weasley during the Battle of Hogwarts. She takes on Bella to protect Ginny. She put herself in harm's way the same as Lily did to protect her child. It's what mothers do.

You called Severus Harry and James' "personal nemesis." I'll address that on the James thread later, but, while he might have been a nasty git to Harry at times, but he definitely wasn't James' nemesis.

Lily's imperfections were listed to refute her being portrayed as "perfect" in the series rather than Harry himself seeing her flaws. So, IMO, it's not a matter of him seeing her as "kind" or "decent" or "perfect," but the author portraying her as too good to be true.
Yes, I know. I said the closest statement to "Lily is perfect" we can make is that Harry idealized her. It would not be altogether surprising if a reader concluded Lily was perfect based on how other characters discuss and react to her. More often than not, everyone has a perfectly glowing opinion of Lily as they remember her, and depending on one's perspective all of her actions were generally justifiable even if they don't seem "perfect."

Yes, I know. I said the closest statement to "Lily is perfect" we can make is that Harry idealized her. It would not be altogether surprising if a reader concluded Lily was perfect based on how other characters discuss and react to her. More often than not, everyone has a perfectly glowing opinion of Lily as they remember her, and depending on one's perspective all of her actions were generally justifiable even if they don't seem "perfect."

That is exactly it. Every single person who ever had anything to say about Lily was always glowing about her. James at least had some proper flaws that we are aware of. Lily didn't have any.

That tends to happen with people who have died, especially people who were victims of tragedies or crimes or heroes of war. It wouldn't be realistic for someone to tell Harry something like, "Oh your dead mother was kind and wonderful and died for you but...she wasn't perfect, you know" and then continue to list off their flaws. Only tactless people like Petunia and Snape would rant about the petty misdeeds of an orphan's dead family to his face. Lily isn't even really a character in the book. The few scenes and flashes we see her in she's depicted as human and with different angles to her. We also get many different descriptions of her from people ranging from positive to negative.

That tends to happen with people who have died, especially people who were victims of tragedies or crimes or heroes of war. It wouldn't be realistic for someone to tell Harry something like, "Oh your dead mother was kind and wonderful and died for you but...she wasn't perfect, you know" and then continue to list off their flaws. Only tactless people like Petunia and Snape would rant about the petty misdeeds of an orphan's dead family to his face. Lily isn't even really a character in the book. The few scenes and flashes we see her in she's depicted as human and with different angles to her. We also get many different descriptions of her from people ranging from positive to negative.

Good point. Although there's also the fact that Lily was apparently, overall, a good and kind person -- not perfect, but most of those remembering her after her death wouldn't pick at minor flaws. And in the pensieve memories, we do see that Lily wasn't perfect. I believe the fact that her life is over by the time Harry's story begins, only the very relevant points about her are included (which in my opinion, is as it should be).

No, we don't get to see the "real" Lily until Harry views Severus' memories. And there she comes across as a pretty regular person with all the flaws and shortcomings of any other regular person. No better -- no worse.

I think the fact that she had died protecting Harry helped to boost her image, too. And, as was said, no one wanted to trash Harry's dead mother when talking to him, so they would have pointed out her good points and not her negatives. That's pretty normal.

Whilst she was far from perfect I would argue that the Lily we see is more than ordinary. She sacrificed her own life for her son and she was courageous enough to fight Voldemort at a very young age. She stood up to her friends and the people in her house. Of course, in general people tend not to speak ill of the dead, especially when it comes to murder victims. But I believe that other characters remember her fondly because she was remarkable.

Lily seemed to play hot and cold with Severus as a young girl.

I'm not sure what you mean here. If this is about the time when she went after Petunia when after Snape dropped the branch on her, I don't see that as playing hot and cold. I see that as showing concern for an injured sibling, rather than letting her life revolve around one person.

If it's about Lily's objections to Snape's thuggish friends, I see that as a good thing. Who wants their friends hanging out with budding terrorists? Someone who's supportive of their friend becoming involved with criminals is either a mindless sycophant and/or a supporter of said criminals themselves, in the Crabbe and Goyle style of friendship.

She snoops in her sisters things (though to be fair I think all siblings do this, I certainly did and I know my sister did it to me :D)

:lol: It's definitely a sibling thing, but it's an annoying one. (I think Harry got his persistent nosiness from Lily.) Interestingly, it's something Lily seemed to develop balance on - from the girl who snooped in her sisters' letter, to the girl who respected that another students' health condition was simply none of her business.

As pointed out several times in this thread she is difficult to talk to when she's arguing about something she's passionate about which could be attributed to her simply being a passionate person or she's being obstinate and not willing to let her mind be changed, we can't say for sure.

I don't think she should have left her mind be changed about DEs and their behaviour. I would have very little to no respect for her if she'd allowed herself to be swayed to have positive views of such dangerous and bigoted people. I don't think she should have had some kind of compromise of turning a blind eye as long as she didn't have to know anything about it.

She defended Snape to the ground despite her friends objections which can be seen as loyalty to Snape or pure stubbornness to give up on a potentially lost cause.

Perhaps out of a wish to hold onto someone from her childhood. She'd already lost her relationship with Petunia, which is why I think she was so determined to maintain the friendship with Snape, even after he started associating with racists and condoning dark magic.

When Snape refers to her as a mudblood (Snape's worst memory), Lily counters with an insult back, calling him "Snivellus" as well

The insults are hardly on the same level. And if Ron or Harry had done that to Hermione, her response would have made the attack of the canaries seem soft and fluffy.
I do think she should have just left it at telling him she wouldn't bother helping him any more. And I do think it points to her having a temper. However, Slughorn says she was cheeky - perhaps she had developed the habit of insulting people like Snape as a defence mechanism when they threw racist insults at her. I don't think she was willing to let them see how it affected her, so a scathing response might have been her default method of dealing with DE-wannabes calling her a "mudblood".

In the first case, Harry only finds out about this when he's in the middle of the Battle of Hogwarts, so he naturally had other things on his mind. If he had, however, discovered more of the story behind Petunia's enmity, and known that Lily had once read a letter without permission, Petunia's cruel treatment more than overshadows a single minor transgression like invasion of privacy.

From an objective perspective, yes, the years of neglect completely overshadow the invasion of privacy and Petunia's sour grapes about magic. But then, Petunia wouldn't be the only character with a very lopsided sense of perspective.

In the second case, Harry was explicitly distracted by the behavior of his father, and even if he had stopped for a moment to evaluate how his mother behaved at that particular moment, he would be justified in seeing "mudblood" as a much more hurtful insult. And given that he wasn't Snape's biggest fan at this time, he probably could have taken some pleasure knowing (without having the context) that his mother had stood up to his own and his father's personal nemesis.

I think, if he had stopped to consider it, he may have been relieved that his mother didn't just take racist insults lying down.


And, as for her giving her life to protect Harry: she was his mother and that would have been a mother's first instinct -- to protect her child. It was a wonderful and selfless thing to do, but look at Molly Weasley during the Battle of Hogwarts. She takes on Bella to protect Ginny. She put herself in harm's way the same as Lily did to protect her child. It's what mothers do.

That doesn't make it any less courageous. Lily was given the opportunity to step aside and she refused. I think that's something special. I don't think that the courage and love of Lily and Molly can be just dismissed as just something mothers do.

Whilst she was far from perfect I would argue that the Lily we see is more than ordinary. She sacrificed her own life for her son and she was courageous enough to fight Voldemort at a very young age. She stood up to her friends and the people in her house. Of course, in general people tend not to speak ill of the dead, especially when it comes to murder victims. But I believe that other characters remember her fondly because she was remarkable.

I agree. Lily stood up to others - she stood up for herself and for others, she refused to let others dictate to her - not Petunia, not Snape, not her friends. She made up her own mind rather than blindly following what she was told to follow.
Lily could have chosen to keep her head down and hope she wasn't noticed in the war. She could have chosen to flee the country. She could have compromised every moral value and joined the DEs as Voldemort gave her the chance to do. Instead, she chose to put her life on the line to make the world a safer place.

Whilst she was far from perfect I would argue that the Lily we see is more than ordinary. She sacrificed her own life for her son and she was courageous enough to fight Voldemort at a very young age. She stood up to her friends and the people in her house. Of course, in general people tend not to speak ill of the dead, especially when it comes to murder victims. But I believe that other characters remember her fondly because she was remarkable.

There were many young people, not all of whom were in the Order, fighting Voldemort. I doubt Lily was special in that aspect. I personally didn't see anything in the series that showed Lily to be anymore outstanding that Alice Longbottom or Molly Weasley. I would expect a mother to put herself in between her child and danger, even at the risk of sacrificing her own life. Sorry, IMO, Lily was just an average person with some above-average talents in certain areas of magic. And, I think she was remembered fondly because she was a nice person who had died saving her son's life.

I wish we'd been given more information about how Lily (and James) thrice defied Voldemort. That would give us more insight into how courageous she was.

I don't know, but for some reason, I never saw that particular action from Lily as some spectacular show of courage that other people seem to take it as. If you look at it from the notion that death is the worst thing that can happen to you (Voldemort's belief as well), then yes, dying for someone else is something incredible no matter what. If, however, you think there are worse alternatives than that, dying is not necessarily the bravest action.

I have people in my life I would die for. This is not because I'm this brave guy, rather its because I can't bear the thought of being around without them. In my mind, me dying for them is not some brave act, rather a selfish act because I don't think I could handle the alternative.

IMO this was what happened with Lily; she couldn't bear the thought of her only son being dead and she was willing to do anything to stop that from happening. She said she'd do anything. I think it would be interesting to know how Lily would have reacted if Voldemort asked her to join him in exchange for Harry's life.

There were many young people, not all of whom were in the Order, fighting Voldemort. I doubt Lily was special in that aspect.

And there were also many young people working for Voldemort, committing murder and mayhem, destroying lives. There were many people who buried their heads in the sand and hoped they wouldn't be affected. And I doubt Wormtail was the only one who turned coats to keep their own hide safe.

I think it takes a lot of strength and courage to take a stand against Voldemort. I think it takes a moral compass to refuse to have anything to do with the evils he and his followers were perpetrating. I think it takes a whole heap of courage to be known to oppose this evil - and she and James would have been known to oppose it, by refusing to serve him and by defying him on two other occasions.

I wish we'd been given more information about how Lily (and James) thrice defied Voldemort. That would give us more insight into how courageous she was.

Well, I think anyone who defies Voldemort has a whole lot of courage. And has enough skill to get away then.
I believe JKR said one of the incidences was that they refused to join him. Something that takes morals and courage, especially if such an "offer" is presented by Voldemort himself.

I don't know, but for some reason, I never saw that particular action from Lily as some spectacular show of courage that other people seem to take it as. If you look at it from the notion that death is the worst thing that can happen to you (Voldemort's belief as well), then yes, dying for someone else is something incredible no matter what. If, however, you think there are worse alternatives than that, dying is not necessarily the bravest action.

Personally, I think stepping aside and letting her son be murdered would have been a more cowardly decision, so in this circumstance, yes, dying was the bravest action. I think that refusing to watch her child be murdered was a brave action. I think it showed immense courage.

I have people in my life I would die for. This is not because I'm this brave guy, rather its because I can't bear the thought of being around without them. In my mind, me dying for them is not some brave act, rather a selfish act because I don't think I could handle the alternative.

I think it's easy to say what one would do, but in such an extreme situation as Lily was in, who really knows how they would act?

IMO this was what happened with Lily; she couldn't bear the thought of her only son being dead and she was willing to do anything to stop that from happening.

Except that Lily did not know that her sacrifice would protect her child. She didn't know that her death would do anything for Harry. As far as she knew, Harry would be murdered immediately after her. However, she refused to abandon him. It wasn't going to do anything to save him, but she wasn't going to just jump aside and forget Harry and move on with a nice tattoo and make pals with DEs.

She said she'd do anything. I think it would be interesting to know how Lily would have reacted if Voldemort asked her to join him in exchange for Harry's life.

I imagine she would have agreed, then taken the first opportunity to get herself and Harry away.

In any case, Voldemort would never have given her that choice, he was fully resolved to kill Harry. The only option he gave Lily was to step aside and watch her baby die.

And there were also many young people working for Voldemort, committing murder and mayhem, destroying lives. There were many people who buried their heads in the sand and hoped they wouldn't be affected. And I doubt Wormtail was the only one who turned coats to keep their own hide safe.

Exactly this, in my opinion. I'm not making any claim that Lily was Even Braver Than The Most Bravest Brave People Who Ever Lived, but she was in that group of brave people who were willing to fight, and live and die for what was right; she was one of the brave. I think she was in good company and it is something I admire about her character.

I think it takes a lot of strength and courage to take a stand against Voldemort. I think it takes a moral compass to refuse to have anything to do with the evils he and his followers were perpetrating. I think it takes a whole heap of courage to be known to oppose this evil - and she and James would have been known to oppose it, by refusing to serve him and by defying him on two other occasions.

Indeed. The reason Voldemort chose her as a specific target was because she had already defied him, three times. That was the criteria put forth in the Prophecy. I would say she had the courage to back up her convictions.

I don't know, but for some reason, I never saw that particular action from Lily as some spectacular show of courage that other people seem to take it as. If you look at it from the notion that death is the worst thing that can happen to you (Voldemort's belief as well), then yes, dying for someone else is something incredible no matter what. If, however, you think there are worse alternatives than that, dying is not necessarily the bravest action.

What do you propose as a brave alternative? Letting Voldemort destroy her only child?

To be honest, I'm quite shocked and lost for words that anyone could even think in such a way. Dying to protect your child is brave, it is an incredible form of self sacrifice. The series is all about self-sacrifice, about selflessness and the atlernatives of selfishness, of lack of friendship, the lack of love. Harry Potter may have been the master of death by not fearing it, welcoming it in fact; however most people do not think this way. Most people are scared of dying, they are scared off how much time they have left, what will happen to them, their families and so many of the philosophical questions that have been asked throughout the ages that religion has attempted to answer.

I have people in my life I would die for. This is not because I'm this brave guy, rather its because I can't bear the thought of being around without them. In my mind, me dying for them is not some brave act, rather a selfish act because I don't think I could handle the alternative.

So you propose that people like Jason Durham, Michael Murphy, Ross McGinnis, or Michael Monsoor (you can wikipedia the four of these examples) are selfish because of the actions they performed, dying for their friends, their loved ones?

Perhaps it is your age or your experience that makes you think this way, but believe me as much as dying is a part of life; the majority of people in this world have a great desire to live; to see their loved ones, because they believe that they have something to offer to them and to the world. The decision to put one's life for the safety of others is incredible, I hope no one that I know will ever have to make that decision.

IMO this was what happened with Lily; she couldn't bear the thought of her only son being dead and she was willing to do anything to stop that from happening. She said she'd do anything. I think it would be interesting to know how Lily would have reacted if Voldemort asked her to join him in exchange for Harry's life.

The thing is, Voldemort would never have asked. He simply said this for the sake of saying it. Sociopathic psychotic serial killers, often say things which would make their victims believe that they are offering them mercy, only to murder them afterwards. They relish the sight of shock, terror, belief that they still have hope and the acceptance that they will be murdered.

Lily was Muggleborn after all, I don't think he particularly viewed any of his followers as having any thing worthy to offer him.

Dying to protect your child is brave, it is an incredible form of self sacrifice.
Well, the problem I have with the whole matter is this: If the decision to sacrifice herself was a radically brave one, then it must also be supposed that a typical mother would not have chosen to sacrifice herself... Which would support Voldemort's supposition that Lily would step aside to save herself.

However, I don't suppose we're supposed to agree with Voldemort that most mothers would readily abandon their children. If we propose that yes, the typical mother would still have chosen to sacrifice herself, this has some logical consequences: If most mothers would sacrifice themselves to protect their children, then Lily was acting in accordance with some guiding principle well outside her individual agency, and it was inevitable rather than brave.

I realize I'm arguing in a weird circle here, but I hope it's clear what I mean. Either it is true that amor vincit omnia in Harry Potter, or it is true that Lily was brave. I don't see how it could be both.

ETA: I just want to point out that this is for me a lingering concern about the text, not an assertion of what the text says.

Well, the problem I have with the whole matter is this: If the decision to sacrifice herself was a radically brave one, then it must also be supposed that a typical mother would not have chosen to sacrifice herself... Which would support Voldemort's supposition that Lily would step aside to save herself.

However, I don't suppose we're supposed to agree with Voldemort that most mothers would readily abandon their children. If we propose that yes, the typical mother would still have chosen to sacrifice herself, this has some logical consequences: If most mothers would sacrifice themselves to protect their children, then Lily was acting in accordance with some guiding principle well outside her individual agency, and it was inevitable rather than brave.

I realize I'm arguing in a weird circle here, but I hope it's clear what I mean. Either it is true that amor vincit omnia in Harry Potter, or it is true that Lily was brave. I don't see how it could be both.

Voldemort did not understand the love of a mother for a child, simply because his mother had abandoned him by dying in child birth. In fact, Voldemort never understood love in general. Undervalued and underestimated it as an emotion and a force. As for Lily unknowingly evoking ancient magic, did J.K. provide any evidence of whether the magic was evoked on purpose or not?

Is it less brave if a mother does what her instincts tell her to do? I don't think so, mothers often show an incredible insane superhuman inner strength if they believe their child is in danger. It has been documented that a mother has been able to lift a metric ton to ensure the protection of her child.

There are many examples of self sacrifice I think I can mention, not one is less brave than the other.

I'm a bit surprised by the dislike shown toward Lily or James on this website.

What do you propose as a brave alternative? Letting Voldemort destroy her only child?

:eeep: Not so keen on that alternative.

Harry Potter may have been the master of death by not fearing it, welcoming it in fact; however most people do not think this way. Most people are scared of dying, they are scared off how much time they have left, what will happen to them, their families and so many of the philosophical questions that have been asked throughout the ages that religion has attempted to answer.

Well put. And none of them are like Lord Voldemort. It's a natural thing to wonder and to worry about death and to hope to live. It doesn't mean one is obsessive about it like Lord Voldemort unless they're willing to die to protect others.

Perhaps it is your age or your experience that makes you think this way, but believe me as much as dying is a part of life; the majority of people in this world have a great desire to live; to see their loved ones, because they believe that they have something to offer to them and to the world. The decision to put one's life for the safety of others is incredible, I hope no one that I know will ever have to make that decision.

I agree. Voldemort feared death and thought it was the worst fate of all. However, that does not mean that wanting to live and live long enough to grow old peacefully is a bad thing. I don't see why a natural desire to live is being compared to Voldemort's obsession with defying death. Choosing to die to protect someone else is incredibly brave, IMO.


The thing is, Voldemort would never have asked. He simply said this for the sake of saying it. Sociopathic psychotic serial killers, often say things which would make their victims believe that they are offering them mercy, only to murder them afterwards. They relish the sight of shock, terror, belief that they still have hope and the acceptance that they will be murdered.

Voldemort was going to allow Lily to live as a reward for a DE, but I don't think that's much of a life. And clearly, Lily wasn't willing to watch her son be murdered so that she could have the honour of being branded like an animal. He would never have offered Lily any way to keep Harry alive because Harry was the prophecied threat.


[QUOTE=canismajoris;5982160]Well, the problem I have with the whole matter is this: If the decision to sacrifice herself was a radically brave one, then it must also be supposed that a typical mother would not have chosen to sacrifice herself... Which would support Voldemort's supposition that Lily would step aside to save herself.

Why is it not brave because most mothers (and fathers) would do so? Why is something not brave because it is not unique? Most parents would do so, but that does not cheapen it or make it any less courageous. I think it means that people can do incredibly brave things for those they love.


I realize I'm arguing in a weird circle here, but I hope it's clear what I mean. Either it is true that amor vincit omnia in Harry Potter, or it is true that Lily was brave. I don't see how it could be both.

I think it can very easily be both. The right thing is not always easy. Just because there is love, doesn't mean it doesn't also take courage. If Lily wasn't brave because she acted out of love, then it surely follows that nobody who acted out of love was brave to do so. :hmm:

Well, the problem I have with the whole matter is this: If the decision to sacrifice herself was a radically brave one, then it must also be supposed that a typical mother would not have chosen to sacrifice herself... Which would support Voldemort's supposition that Lily would step aside to save herself.

But your options are not mutually exclusive. To be radically brave does not mean you cannot be a typical mother. That most mothers would choose to sacrifice themselves in such a situation does not make the one who actually does so less courageous. The majority of mothers are not put in a situation where they have to take a Killing Curse full on in order to save their child. The situation itself would make the occurence rare and therefore notable.

Personally, I think stepping aside and letting her son be murdered would have been a more cowardly decision, so in this circumstance, yes, dying was the bravest action. I think that refusing to watch her child be murdered was a brave action. I think it showed immense courage.

I wasn't implying that she should have stood aside to watch her child die. It would indeed have been a cowardly decision. She made the right choice here. I'm just saying that it wasn't the bravest.


I think it's easy to say what one would do, but in such an extreme situation as Lily was in, who really knows how they would act?

In either case, it comes down to your personal desire. When push comes to shove, self preservation takes over. I'm talking self preservation not just in the physical sense. Snape said he'd do anything when he ran to Dumbledore. He wanted to die when he found out that she had died. Dumbledore said he'd do anything when he was reliving the Ariana death scene followed by "kill me". Wormtail went the other way and betrayed his friends when faced with possibility of death.


Except that Lily did not know that her sacrifice would protect her child. She didn't know that her death would do anything for Harry. As far as she knew, Harry would be murdered immediately after her. However, she refused to abandon him. It wasn't going to do anything to save him, but she wasn't going to just jump aside and forget Harry and move on with a nice tattoo and make pals with DEs.

Its true that Lily had no idea how her action would affect Harry but my point was that she wanted to prevent Harry's death in whichever way she could. Failing that, she didn't want to be around to see her son getting murdered. That whole scene with Voldemort was just utter desperation and panic from Lily.


I imagine she would have agreed, then taken the first opportunity to get herself and Harry away.

I agree.


What do you propose as a brave alternative? Letting Voldemort destroy her only child?

In this particular case, I don't think there was a brave alternative. Just a right and wrong one. It would have been brave if Lily was terrified of dying.


To be honest, I'm quite shocked and lost for words that anyone could even think in such a way. Dying to protect your child is brave, it is an incredible form of self sacrifice. The series is all about self-sacrifice, about selflessness and the atlernatives of selfishness, of lack of friendship, the lack of love. Harry Potter may have been the master of death by not fearing it, welcoming it in fact; however most people do not think this way. Most people are scared of dying, they are scared off how much time they have left, what will happen to them, their families and so many of the philosophical questions that have been asked throughout the ages that religion has attempted to answer.

I said it was not necessarily the bravest action. I do think there are instances where dying is one of the bravest things you can do. I was simply stating that in this particular case, I didn't think it was. Its true that people are scared of death. I was taking about situations where the fear of death is overwhelmed by the fear of something else. IMO in this specific instance, Lily's fear of dying was crushed by her fear of losing her only child.


So you propose that people like Jason Durham, Michael Murphy, Ross McGinnis, or Michael Monsoor (you can wikipedia the four of these examples) are selfish because of the actions they performed, dying for their friends, their loved ones?

Ok, I was speaking about myself when I said it would be a selfish act. Selfish is probably the wrong word here. I guess I'm trying to say that a certain amount of self preservation comes into play. The examples you cited were brave people because they overcame their fear to do what needed to be done.


Perhaps it is your age or your experience that makes you think this way, but believe me as much as dying is a part of life; the majority of people in this world have a great desire to live; to see their loved ones, because they believe that they have something to offer to them and to the world. The decision to put one's life for the safety of others is incredible, I hope no one that I know will ever have to make that decision.

I agree with you that such a decision is a tough one and not one to be taken lightly at all, I'm just saying that it need not necessarily be the bravest. Harry and Regulus are two characters who I think were incredible brave when they decided to die. Both of them had to confront their fear and go ahead and do it. I guess I'm distinguishing between thought processes here.


The thing is, Voldemort would never have asked. He simply said this for the sake of saying it. Sociopathic psychotic serial killers, often say things which would make their victims believe that they are offering them mercy, only to murder them afterwards. They relish the sight of shock, terror, belief that they still have hope and the acceptance that they will be murdered.

Whether Voldemort would have kept his side of the bargain is irrelevant, its about the limits Lily would go to to protect her son.

I wasn't implying that she should have stood aside to watch her child die. It would indeed have been a cowardly decision. She made the right choice here. I'm just saying that it wasn't the bravest.

Lily Potter had no choice, it was either lose her soul by stepping aside and allowing the man who had murdered the love of her life, her husband, murder her only child. Which she would never have done, or try to shield Harry from Voldemort. Considering that neither James nor Lily had wands on them when Voldemort attacked the house, fighting back was impossible.

Tell me what you would have done if you had been Lily, I mean, considering you believe her sacrifice was cowardly.

In either case, it comes down to your personal desire. When push comes to shove, self preservation takes over. I'm talking self preservation not just in the physical sense. Snape said he'd do anything when he ran to Dumbledore. He wanted to die when he found out that she had died. Dumbledore said he'd do anything when he was reliving the Ariana death scene followed by "kill me". Wormtail went the other way and betrayed his friends when faced with possibility of death.

Snape ran to Dumbledore because he realised than, the magnitude of his mistake by snitching to the Dark Lord about the prophesy. He told Dumbledore he only cared about Lily but relented and told him to protect the whole family in any way possible. His wish to die, was a result of the failure of the concealment. I don't think he realised until than that Voldemort would stop at nothing. Snape's strength of character and redeeming quality was his love for Lily Evans. He lost all of that on October 31st. His wish to die had nothing to do with self-preservation. Nor did Dumbledore's wish to take the rage of Gellert Grindelwald when he was using the cruciatus curse on his brother and whatever evil he committed against his sister.

Its true that Lily had no idea how her action would affect Harry but my point was that she wanted to prevent Harry's death in whichever way she could. Failing that, she didn't want to be around to see her son getting murdered.

The statement that Lily placed herself in front of a killing curse by Voldemort simply because she didn't want to live in a world without Harry or James is ludicrous. Mind boggling, I think you are forgetting that neither James nor Lily had a wand on them when Voldemort burst in. They could not fight back, they could not disapparate.

Well, let me ask you this. Where is the source in the books that claims that she had no idea of what she did by dying in protection of Harry? Harry evoked the ancient magic of protective love by thinking about it, by wishing it, by desiring it when he sacrificed himself in the Forbidden Forest. It worked, Voldemort was unable to cast spells which could last against those that Harry loved; his two best friends, Luna, Neville, the Weasley family, Professor McGonagall and the rest of the Order.

That whole scene with Voldemort was just utter desperation and panic from Lily.

Of course she was desperate and in a state of panic, they had been shocked by the fact that Tom found them. They had put faith in a person they were sure would not betray them. They suffered from cabin fever, but had let their guard down. Mind you, their guard against Lord Voldemort would have undoubtedly not given them much in store for potential protection.

In this particular case, I don't think there was a brave alternative. Just a right and wrong one. It would have been brave if Lily was terrified of dying.

How would it have been brave if Lily was afraid of dying?

I said it was not necessarily the bravest action. I do think there are instances where dying is one of the bravest things you can do. I was simply stating that in this particular case, I didn't think it was. Its true that people are scared of death. I was taking about situations where the fear of death is overwhelmed by the fear of something else. IMO in this specific instance, Lily's fear of dying was crushed by her fear of losing her only child.

Was she really afraid of death though? Besides, I think you're contradicting yourself here. You said she would have been brave if she was afraid of dying and now you're saying she was afraid and that made her 'selfish'

She didn't want her son to be murdered, that is all. It has nothing to do with one fear overwhelming another. She did what she felt would potentially protect Harry. Sacrificing herself and thus evoking the ancient magic of love and the bound of protection it would give to the son she loved.

Ok, I was speaking about myself when I said it would be a selfish act. Selfish is probably the wrong word here. I guess I'm trying to say that a certain amount of self preservation comes into play. The examples you cited were brave people because they overcame their fear to do what needed to be done.

Bravery comes in many forms, to be a brave, a hero isn't necessarily limited to those who overcome their fear of death. We can only assume that Dobby did not wish to die when he came to rescue the trio and the prisoners of Malfoy Manor. He came despite his traumatic experience of having served the Malfoy family. Despite all of that, he still fought back, he saved the trio and the rest of the Prisoners and died as a result. He may not have consciously come over his fear of death, he was simply doing what he needed to do to ensure that his friends would not be killed. Regulus and Harry, knew that they were sacrificing their lives (which obviously still makes them brave), however Dobby's sacrifice does not make him any less brave because he unknowingly went to his death.

I agree with you that such a decision is a tough one and not one to be taken lightly at all, I'm just saying that it need not necessarily be the bravest. Harry and Regulus are two characters who I think were incredible brave when they decided to die. Both of them had to confront their fear and go ahead and do it. I guess I'm distinguishing between thought processes here.

Bravery is intangible, it cannot be measured, nor grasped nor tasted because of that, their isn't a single definition of what makes one brave.

Whether Voldemort would have kept his side of the bargain is irrelevant, its about the limits Lily would go to to protect her son.

Voldemort was first and foremost a sociopath and a serial killer. He lied about everything, from covering up his past to covering up his true intentions to lying about his motives and attempting to make himself bigger and better than he was. I don't think for a minute we can doubt that Tom Riddle was about to keep his bargain. He did not care for his followers, Dumbledore said so himself; he merely viewed them as servants to do the more menial tasks he didn't want to bother himself with. Voldemort having been limited in his intelligence and understanding of people, probably believed that if he made Severus believe he was about to spare Lily's life that would make him more loyal.

What do you propose as a brave alternative?

I think Harry walking into the Forbidden Forest knowing he was walking to his death and doing nothing to stop it was more brave than Lily sacrificing herself to save him when he was a baby. Personally.

If we're talking points on a bravery scale.

0--------------------------------------------5--------------------------------------------10

Voldemort (Generally)-------Less than 0

Lily's Sacrifice----------Around an 8 for me

Harry's walk ----------------- 9.5 or 10

To be honest, I'm quite shocked and lost for words that anyone could even think in such a way. Dying to protect your child is brave, it is an incredible form of self sacrifice.

I said it was not necessarily the bravest action. I do think there are instances where dying is one of the bravest things you can do. I was simply stating that in this particular case, I didn't think it was. Its true that people are scared of death. I was taking about situations where the fear of death is overwhelmed by the fear of something else. IMO in this specific instance, Lily's fear of dying was crushed by her fear of losing her only child.

I agree with both of you: Dying to protect your child is a very brave thing to do but I don't necessarily think, of all the brave acts one can perform in a lifetime, that it would rank #1 on everyone's list. It might have been the bravest thing Lily did in her lifetime but it wasn't the bravest act by anyone in the books.

To me, Harry's walk into the Forest was more brave. He was going to his death to protect people he loved but also people he didn't even know, arguably he was sacrificing himself for future generations of people who would learn about him in school in 100 years and only know him as the Boy Who Lived - But Who Died For Them.

Whoa.

Major realization here.

Harry... was the wizarding Jesus.

:wow: :lol:

But your options are not mutually exclusive. To be radically brave does not mean you cannot be a typical mother. That most mothers would choose to sacrifice themselves in such a situation does not make the one who actually does so less courageous. The majority of mothers are not put in a situation where they have to take a Killing Curse full on in order to save their child. The situation itself would make the occurence rare and therefore notable.

I also agree here.

As for Lily unknowingly evoking ancient magic, well that's an assumption isn't it? Did J.K. provide any evidence of whether the magic was evoked on purpose or not?

No one knew that if Lily sacrficed herself under precisely those conditions that Harry would gain this enormous, profound magical protection from her death. That's why Harry's survival was so amazing and why people thought that he must be a really powerful wizard to survive something like the killing curse when he was only a baby. Students in COS claim his survival meant he must be a powerful dark wizard because he both survived and "killed" voldemort in return.

Is it less brave if a mother does what her instincts tell her to do? I don't think so, mothers often show an incredible insane superhuman inner strength if they believe their child is in danger. It has been documented that a mother has been able to lift a metric ton to ensure the protection of her child.

Meh... Such feats aren't confined to mothers, and most examples of super-human skills seem to appear in situations of personal survival.

At the risk of having the description removed by mods, look up Aron Ralston, the hiker with the boulder and the multitool. 'Nuff said here. Danelle Ballangee is an adventurer racer who, while out running, basically fell off a cliff, shattered her pelvis and femur and survived two days by sheer willpower. To be fair, though, her dog is the one that saved her. :D

There are many many examples of people who display so-called superhuman abilities in life-threatening situations.

I do agree that saying Lily's sacrifice wasn't brave because it is perceived as "what a mother should have done" in that situation does not mean that it was, therefore, not a brave act. I think it falls on the medium to high side of the bravery scale. Still a brave act, yes, but perhaps not the single bravest thing ever done in history - or in the books. =^/

There are many examples of self sacrifice I think I can mention, not one is less brave than the other.

Everyone has their own individual bravery scale.

I'm a bit surprised by the spite shown toward Lily or James on this website, it is undoubtedly from the fact that she did not return Snape's love for her and that James was seen as a bit of an arrogant bully. We must remember however, that it was Snape who chose the life he did for himself which pushed Lily away from him.

Are you saying that the spite some people here show towards Lily is because she didn't return Snape's feelings and fans here condemn her for that? This paragraph is a little confusing...

I don't condemn Lily for not returning Snape's love; she was under no obligation to.

I don't condemn her for seeing James as a bully; that's the way he was portrayed and, to be fair, he was picking on Lily's friend and she didn't like it.

I don't condemn Lily for ending her friendship with Snape; it was becoming unhealthy, they had drifted apart ideologically and at the time it didn't appear to be a reconcilable situation. The beast and apparently only option at the time was the go their separate ways.

The irony of course lies in the fact that most who seem to dislike James for his bullying, overlook the fact that Snape was the worst kind of teacher; a petty loathsome bully who taunted students who could not defend themselves.

:wow: I'm not even touching this.

No one knew that if Lily sacrficed herself under precisely those conditions that Harry would gain this enormous, profound magical protection from her death. That's why Harry's survival was so amazing and why people thought that he must be a really powerful wizard to survive something like the killing curse when he was only a baby. Students in COS claim his survival meant he must be a powerful dark wizard because he both survived and "killed" voldemort in return.

Well, children are usually not experts in most fields. In this case, it would hard for them to know or understand Harry's survival being tied in with ancient magic, especially when Voldemort did not even know it, understand it nor could foreshadow it.

Are you saying that the spite some people here show towards Lily is because she didn't return Snape's feelings and fans here condemn her for that? This paragraph is a little confusing...

I don't condemn Lily for not returning Snape's love; she was under no obligation to.

I don't condemn her for seeing James as a bully; that's the way he was portrayed and, to be fair, he was picking on Lily's friend and she didn't like it.

I don't condemn Lily for ending her friendship with Snape; it was becoming unhealthy, they had drifted apart ideologically and at the time it didn't appear to be a reconcilable situation. The beast and apparently only option at the time was the go their separate ways.

For benefit of civil discussion, I shall have my statement retracted.

What do you propose as a brave alternative? Letting Voldemort destroy her only child?

To be honest, I'm quite shocked and lost for words that anyone could even think in such a way. Dying to protect your child is brave, it is an incredible form of self sacrifice. The series is all about self-sacrifice, about selflessness and the atlernatives of selfishness, of lack of friendship, the lack of love. Harry Potter may have been the master of death by not fearing it, welcoming it in fact; however most people do not think this way. Most people are scared of dying, they are scared off how much time they have left, what will happen to them, their families and so many of the philosophical questions that have been asked throughout the ages that religion has attempted to answer.

As a mother who's not all that young *cough, cough*, I see no alternative if your child is threatened than to do whatever you have to do to save them. And, that may include sacrificing you own life.

What many of us are saying here is that what Lily did was courageous, but no more courageous than any mother putting herself in the line of fire, such as Molly Weasley taking on Bellatrix to protect Ginny.

Of course mothers are as scared of death as anyone, but, when that moment arrives that it's you or your child, a mother will almost always make the choice to save her child. I say "almost always" because I have no way of knowing that it's 100% of the time. But, I've read and heard many, many stories of mothers who've risked their lives or given their lives to save their children.

So you propose that people like Jason Durham, Michael Murphy, Ross McGinnis, or Michael Monsoor (you can wikipedia the four of these examples) are selfish because of the actions they performed, dying for their friends, their loved ones?

Perhaps it is your age or your experience that makes you think this way, but believe me as much as dying is a part of life; the majority of people in this world have a great desire to live; to see their loved ones, because they believe that they have something to offer to them and to the world. The decision to put one's life for the safety of others is incredible, I hope no one that I know will ever have to make that decision.

Not sure what these people have to do with Lily's sacrifice as a mother, as they are all men. But, everyone who gives their lives for others are most courageous and selfless people. It doesn't make them anymore so than people who risk their lives to protect others but do not die, though. I know people who have risked their lives for others and knew people who died trying to save others, and I find them all absolutely awesome.

The thing is, Voldemort would never have asked. He simply said this for the sake of saying it. Sociopathic psychotic serial killers, often say things which would make their victims believe that they are offering them mercy, only to murder them afterwards. They relish the sight of shock, terror, belief that they still have hope and the acceptance that they will be murdered.

Severus had asked Voldemort to spare Lily. Whether he was honoring that or not is debatable, but he did give her the chance to step aside and save her own life. Would he have captured her and taken her back to Severus (who he thought was "lusting" after her)? Or, would he have killed her after he killed Harry? We don't know for sure, of course. But, she wasn't armed and was no threat to him. IMO, he was out to kill Harry and if Lily had stepped aside (which we all know she wouldn't have) I think he'd have just zapped Harry and left.

Voldemort did not understand the love of a mother for a child, simply because his mother had abandoned him by dying in child birth. In fact, Voldemort never understood love in general. Undervalued and underestimated it as an emotion and a force. As for Lily unknowingly evoking ancient magic, well that's an assumption isn't it? Did J.K. provide any evidence of whether the magic was evoked on purpose or not?

He'd forgotten about the "ancient magic" that love represented and the protections it provided or I think he would have AK'd Lily without giving her a choice, therefore negating any protection for Harry. No choice...no protection charm.

Is it less brave if a mother does what her instincts tell her to do? I don't think so, mothers often show an incredible insane superhuman inner strength if they believe their child is in danger. It has been documented that a mother has been able to lift a metric ton to ensure the protection of her child.

There are many examples of self sacrifice I think I can mention, not one is less brave than the other.

IMO, it doesn't lessen the act of the sacrifice because it is a maternal instinct. But, it also doesn't make Lily anymore brave or courageous than any of the other mothers who risked their lives for their children during Voldy Wars I and II.

I'm a bit surprised by the spite shown toward Lily or James on this website, it is undoubtedly from the fact that she did not return Snape's love for her and that James was seen as a bit of an arrogant bully. We must remember however, that it was Snape who chose the life he did for himself which pushed Lily away from him.

Not necessarily. In Lily's case, to me, it's that she wasn't as good a friend to Severus as she might have been. -- my opinion of course. But, I, personally value my best friends more than that. When I compare her friendship to Severus with Hermione's friendship to Harry and Ron, Lily doesn't measure up real well, IMO. Hermione sure put up with a lot from them, especially Ron, but she never gave up on them, no matter what. I think if she'd been Severus friend she'd have beaten him over the head with her notebook until he promised to forget about the DEs altogether.:lol: Being a bit silly there, but, in all seriousness, I just don't think Hermione would have let him get away like that and I don't think it would have mattered what her "friends" said. Look how she hung in with S.P.E.W. and how she risked her very friendship with Harry to keep him from riding a broom that might have a curse on it.

And, did Severus push Lily away or did she push him away because of peer pressure and what he thought he was planning to become? If you drop over to the Snape thread we can get more into what did he actually do, that we are shown. We hear a lot third hand (from Lily's friends telling her and then us reading Lily's statements), but we don't really know what his plans were for the future. Again, that's not for this thread.

The irony of course lies in the fact that most who seem to dislike James for his bullying, overlook the fact that Snape was the worst kind of teacher; a petty loathsome bully who taunted students who could not defend themselves.

This, too, is for the Snape thread. Drop over and we can discuss it there. :wave:

Well, the problem I have with the whole matter is this: If the decision to sacrifice herself was a radically brave one, then it must also be supposed that a typical mother would not have chosen to sacrifice herself...

I think the key is where you inject the word "radically" in front of "brave." I personally don't believe it necessarily has to be there. To me, it doesn't matter how most mothers would react in this situation. If a sociopath comes to murder your child and gives you the chance to step aside and you refuse, IMHO, you are being brave in the truest sense of the word.

I'm a bit surprised by the dislike shown toward Lily or James on this website.

I think one of the gifts of JKR is creating realistic characters we can relate to. None of them are saints, and in fact many have some serious flaws.

Lily strikes me as someone who, once she formed an opinion, did not back down and could be very stubborn. In some ways, this is a plus. I can definitely see her as a brave person overall, and I believe, had she not been targeted, she would have been one of the bravest and strongest supporters of the Order, and would have fought hard for what she believed in. On the flip side, I don't think she gave Snape a chance to explain himself after SWM - her mind was made up, and he knew it.

Lily wasn't just another mother defending her child. Think about WHY Voldemort went after her son in the first place. She defied Voldemort three times! That's what spurred Trelawny to make that prophecy. This wasn't just a random home invasion. Lily joined the Order as did all of them thinking she could possibly be killed.

Of-course you could see it in a twisted way and think of her as irresponsible for having a baby during war time after defying Voldemort so many times and becoming quite a target.

Of-course you could see it in a twisted way and think of her as irresponsible for having a baby during war time after defying Voldemort so many times and becoming quite a target.

I always thought Harry was unplanned myself. :p

I can't really imagine James and Lily sitting down and making the decision to get pregnant in the midst of a war when they're 19 years old and integral players in the resistance movement.

Lily wasn't just another mother defending her child. Think about WHY Voldemort went after her son in the first place. She defied Voldemort three times! That's what spurred Trelawny to make that prophecy. This wasn't just a random home invasion. Lily joined the Order as did all of them thinking she could possibly be killed.

No, she wasn't "just another mother": she was THE mother who HAD to defend her child. The vast majority of mothers are never confronted with a situation like Lily was: "step aside or I zap your kid" (BTW, MinervasCat, :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: !!!!!) but that's not to say that the vast majority of mothers wouldn't do exactly the same thing Lily did.

IMO the "wasn't just another mother" argument lessens the bravery inherent in the act. She knew she, James and Harry were targets and took measures to reduce the likelyhood of becoming a victim of Voldemort. She knew he was looking for them and might one day find them. To a certain extent she probably formed a game plan or at least thought of what she might do in certain situations even if they were never voiced: "If Voldemort finds us, I'll do anything to keep Harry alive" and in that sense she was simply playing out the plan she'd made. Knocks the act down the bravery scale to, maybe a 6 out of 10... Still brave but not saintly.

I wasn't implying that she should have stood aside to watch her child die. It would indeed have been a cowardly decision. She made the right choice here. I'm just saying that it wasn't the bravest.

In that situation, wandless, what was the bravest thing she could have done?

Lily Potter had no choice, it was either lose her soul by stepping aside and allowing the man who had murdered the love of her life, her husband, murder her only child. Which she would never have done, or try to shield Harry from Voldemort.

I think she did have a choice - she could have stepped aside. She never would have done that, but she did have that option. And it was that option that saved Harry. If Lily hadn't had a choice, her death wouldn't have saved Harry.

Well, let me ask you this. Where is the source in the books that claims that she had no idea of what she did by dying in protection of Harry? Harry evoked the ancient magic of protective love by thinking about it, by wishing it, by desiring it when he sacrificed himself in the Forbidden Forest.

That was because Harry had learned about the circumstances of his own survival. He was the only person known to have survived the Killing Curse, which strongly suggests that nobody knew this kind of protection existed before then.

Bravery comes in many forms, to be a brave, a hero isn't necessarily limited to those who overcome their fear of death. ... Regulus and Harry, knew that they were sacrificing their lives (which obviously still makes them brave), however Dobby's sacrifice does not make him any less brave because he unknowingly went to his death.

I agree. Everyone's circumstances are different, everyone faces different challenges, and how they respond to them says a lot.

I agree with both of you: Dying to protect your child is a very brave thing to do but I don't necessarily think, of all the brave acts one can perform in a lifetime, that it would rank #1 on everyone's list. It might have been the bravest thing Lily did in her lifetime but it wasn't the bravest act by anyone in the books.

But that's just it - everyone has to react to their own circumstances, not someone else's. And as Lily had joined the Order, and thrice defied Voldemort, I think it's safe to say that she was courageous in other circumstances.

No one knew that if Lily sacrficed herself under precisely those conditions that Harry would gain this enormous, profound magical protection from her death.

I agree. It had never happened before - Harry was the only one known to survive the Killing Curse.

Everyone has their own individual bravery scale.

Not everyone.

I don't condemn Lily for not returning Snape's love; she was under no obligation to.

100% agree, but I tend to think that is debated.

Of course mothers are as scared of death as anyone, but, when that moment arrives that it's you or your child, a mother will almost always make the choice to save her child. I say "almost always" because I have no way of knowing that it's 100% of the time. But, I've read and heard many, many stories of mothers who've risked their lives or given their lives to save their children.

And all of them are very, very, brave, IMO. It doesn't have to be unique or rare to be something brave, IMO.

Severus had asked Voldemort to spare Lily. Whether he was honoring that or not is debatable, but he did give her the chance to step aside and save her own life. Would he have captured her and taken her back to Severus (who he thought was "lusting" after her)? Or, would he have killed her after he killed Harry? We don't know for sure, of course. But, she wasn't armed and was no threat to him. IMO, he was out to kill Harry and if Lily had stepped aside (which we all know she wouldn't have) I think he'd have just zapped Harry and left.

As Lily was meant to be some sort of reward for a DE, I think he would have captured her and brought her along. Little point in sparing her as a prize and then leaving her at liberty.

IMO, it doesn't lessen the act of the sacrifice because it is a maternal instinct. But, it also doesn't make Lily anymore brave or courageous than any of the other mothers who risked their lives for their children during Voldy Wars I and II.

But nor does it make her any less courageous than any of them.

Not necessarily. In Lily's case, to me, it's that she wasn't as good a friend to Severus as she might have been. -- my opinion of course.

Lily was, IMO, a very good friend. Like any good friend, she did not want someone she cared about to become involved in crime. If refusing to become a mob-wife type, turning a blind eye equals a bad friend, I'm very confused.

But, I, personally value my best friends more than that. When I compare her friendship to Severus with Hermione's friendship to Harry and Ron, Lily doesn't measure up real well, IMO. Hermione sure put up with a lot from them, especially Ron, but she never gave up on them, no matter what. I think if she'd been Severus friend she'd have beaten him over the head with her notebook until he promised to forget about the DEs altogether.:lol:

The relationship between the trio was never poisoned by racism and bigotry. Ron and Harry never, ever, ever considered Hermione a "mudblood". They never threw racist insults at her. They never became buddies with people like Malfoy who wanted muggleborns dead. IMO, there's a whole gulf of difference between the two friendships. Hermione behaved differently than Lily. But then again, neither Ron or Harry behaved like Snape.

Being a bit silly there, but, in all seriousness, I just don't think Hermione would have let him get away like that and I don't think it would have mattered what her "friends" said. Look how she hung in with S.P.E.W. and how she risked her very friendship with Harry to keep him from riding a broom that might have a curse on it.

Hermione would not put up with a so-called friend who threw racist abuse at her. Nor would she support a friend in becoming a thuggish DE. If Ron or Harry had thrown that racist epithet at Hermione, her reaction would have made the canaries look sweet and fluffy. Hermione did not let people push her around. I really don't see what SPEW has to do with the DEs. A rights group and a murderous oppression group? No comparison. Hermione stood firm to her opinions - and I think she would have avoided like the plague any so-called friend who was interested in joining the DEs.

Lily's friends were concerned for her in the same way she was concerned for Snape, IMO. Nobody who's a real friend wants their friend hanging out with people who are on the path to crime.
Who wants their friend associating with people who will lead them astray? Lily didn't want Snape hanging around with Mulciber and Avery, wannabe DEs. Lily's friends didn't want her hanging around Snape, a wannabe DE.

And, did Severus push Lily away or did she push him away because of peer pressure and what he thought he was planning to become? If you drop over to the Snape thread we can get more into what did he actually do, that we are shown. We hear a lot third hand (from Lily's friends telling her and then us reading Lily's statements), but we don't really know what his plans were for the future. Again, that's not for this thread.

I think it was clear that Snape was planning to become a DE. And as he actually did become a DE, I think it's clear that Lily knew what she was talking about. He was condoning Dark Magic and throwing racial abuse at people - among them Lily. Lily saw how he was behaving. She saw what he was condoning. And she heard the very worst insult directed at her by someone who claimed to be a friend. I don't believe there is any proof that Lily ended the friendship because of peer pressure. She ended it because her so-called friend threw the worst racial abuse in the wizarding world at her, using her as a sop for his anger and frustration.

Lily strikes me as someone who, once she formed an opinion, did not back down and could be very stubborn. In some ways, this is a plus.

When it comes to being 100% opposed to something as evil as the DEs, then I think refusing to back down is definitely a plus.

Lily wasn't just another mother defending her child. Think about WHY Voldemort went after her son in the first place. She defied Voldemort three times! That's what spurred Trelawny to make that prophecy. This wasn't just a random home invasion. Lily joined the Order as did all of them thinking she could possibly be killed.

Of-course you could see it in a twisted way and think of her as irresponsible for having a baby during war time after defying Voldemort so many times and becoming quite a target.


I'm not sure I understand -- why would it make a difference why Voldemort was coming after Harry? It doesn't increase or lessen Lily's sacrificing her life to safe him.

And, having a child during such a terrible time is a sign of hope for the future and, I don't think Lily and James should be seen as irresponsible for having Harry then. They were in love and there were probably times before they went into hiding that they may not have known if they see each other alive again. So, wanting to have a child, IMO, was not a negative thing.

I don't believe there is any proof that Lily ended the friendship because of peer pressure. She ended it because her so-called friend threw the worst racial abuse in the wizarding world at her, using her as a sop for his anger and frustration.

For me, the issue I have with Lily isn't so much the reason she ended her relationship with Snape. She had every right to do so. However, if someone comes to me and wants to apologize, no matter who they are (and especially in the case of someone I once considered a "best friend" at one point) I think it's only fair to hear them out. Once you've heard what they have to say, then i believe you have every right to close the door on them and end the relationship. Lily didn't do that. When she walked out of the Common Room to speak to him, she had her mind made up. To me, a kind, fair person would have heard him out first, and then made a decision. I got the impression she was already looking for a reason to end her relationship with him, and he gave her one.

When it comes to being 100% opposed to something as evil as the DEs, then I think refusing to back down is definitely a plus.

No disagreement here. It would have been a trait that served her well during the war.

In that situation, wandless, what was the bravest thing she could have done?

Exactly what she did.

But that's just it - everyone has to react to their own circumstances, not someone else's. And as Lily had joined the Order, and thrice defied Voldemort, I think it's safe to say that she was courageous in other circumstances.

Right. I'm agreeing with you that what Lily did was brave!

Not everyone.

What I mean by everyone having their own individual bravery scale is that my scale is calibrated differently than yours. On you scale Lily might achieve a 10 of 10, on mine she gets more like an 8 of 10 because I think Harry's walk into the forest is a more flat-out-brave act. For the next poster, Lily might rank a 9, for the one after than she might rank a 6.

Everyone interprets "how brave she was by sacrificing herself" by different factors.

100% agree, but I tend to think that is debated.

It's definitely debated, especially in these threads, which I find really interesting. Just because you are friends with someone and they have more than friendly feelings towards you, that does not mean you, as their friend, have to return those feelings in kind. Lily didn't have to love Snape just because he loved her. That's not how love works. At least not to me.

And all of them are very, very, brave, IMO. It doesn't have to be unique or rare to be something brave, IMO.

There is a subset of mothers who, when faced with a threat to their child, show indifference toward that child's suffering, though. It's not a large portion of society but by no means do 100% of mothers make the choice to sacrifice themselves for their children.

Whether this indifference is born out of a simple lack of love for or lack of bond to that child or because the mother sees the child in some way as having ruined her life or whatever, not all women who bear children are really fit to be "mothers" and not all women who bear children would willingly give up their life for that child.

Lily is obviously not one of these women. She bore her child, loved him and gave her life for him. She did what I'd say the majority of mothers would have done if faced with this situation. And this is a brave thing to do.

As Lily was meant to be some sort of reward for a DE, I think he would have captured her and brought her along. Little point in sparing her as a prize and then leaving her at liberty.

Especially when that women left at liberty has the kind of chip on her shoulder Lily would have for Voldemort who had just killed her husband and child. If Voldemort had left Lily alive he'd have to take her back to his death eater hidey-hole simply so he could keep an eye on her.

The relationship between the trio was never poisoned by racism and bigotry. Ron and Harry never, ever, ever considered Hermione a "mudblood". They never threw racist insults at her. They never became buddies with people like Malfoy who wanted muggleborns dead. IMO, there's a whole gulf of difference between the two friendships. Hermione behaved differently than Lily. But then again, neither Ron or Harry behaved like Snape.

Hermione would not put up with a so-called friend who threw racist abuse at her. Nor would she support a friend in becoming a thuggish DE. If Ron or Harry had thrown that racist epithet at Hermione, her reaction would have made the canaries look sweet and fluffy. Hermione did not let people push her around. I really don't see what SPEW has to do with the DEs. A rights group and a murderous oppression group? No comparison. Hermione stood firm to her opinions - and I think she would have avoided like the plague any so-called friend who was interested in joining the DEs.

The big difference between Hermione Ron and Harry's friendship and Lily and Snape's friendship is that Lily knew a very different Snape than everyone else did. She knew the little boy who played on the playground with her and told her it didn't matter than she was a muggleborn. She was steeped in Nice-Snape for years before he began to morph into Proto-DE-Snape and she probably couldn't reconcille the Proto-DE face he showed the world at Hogwarts with the one she grew up with.

We've all heard the phrase "Put a frog in boiling water and he'll jump out but put him in cold water and heat it up and he'll stay in there until he boils to death."

Where Snape is concerned, Lily was put in the water when it was cold.

Lily was brave. It took courage to face Voldemort when he came to kill Harry. It took courage to fight along side the others who were taking a stand against Voldemort. But, so were many, many other witches and wizards of her age group. So, she was in a lot of good company.

But your options are not mutually exclusive. To be radically brave does not mean you cannot be a typical mother. That most mothers would choose to sacrifice themselves in such a situation does not make the one who actually does so less courageous.
Ultimately all I was trying to say was that I find some unresolved conflicts within the entire philosophy of the series, namely the emphasis on choice as contrasted to the power of love. And I think Lily's sacrifice neatly encapsulates my confusion.

The majority of mothers are not put in a situation where they have to take a Killing Curse full on in order to save their child. The situation itself would make the occurence rare and therefore notable.
But the detail I'm trying to illuminate is not that Lily chose to stand her ground, it's what we would think of her if she had not chosen to. I'm sure most of us have never even considered that as an option, and seen no point in speculating about what would have happened if she had let Voldemort get on with it. And why? Because she loves Harry, and we know that.

How then can we really attach choice to what transpired? More than a few people have already mentioned that Lily did what most mothers would do in that situation. Unless we are led to conclude that a mother at some point, or even continually, makes a conscious decision to love her children, then what happened was inevitable, simply because Lily is a decent person who must behave decently. She didn't choose to love Harry any more than I choose to love my parents, and yet we say she chose to stand up to Voldemort when she acted in accordance with the love she felt.

In other words, her choice was not a real choice between standing there and not standing there, it was obvious that she would stand there, always and every time, unless for some reason she chose not to. Her agency in that scene is an illusion woven by our desire to attach credit to her actions, when in reality, and in the opinions of several posters I've just read, she did the only thing any of us could stomach reading about.

I think the key is where you inject the word "radically" in front of "brave." I personally don't believe it necessarily has to be there. To me, it doesn't matter how most mothers would react in this situation. If a sociopath comes to murder your child and gives you the chance to step aside and you refuse, IMHO, you are being brave in the truest sense of the word.
My underlying motive here is to wonder why we need to worry about whether it was brave in the first place. I think people are interpreting my comments as some sort of criticism of Lily, but in reality I think it's just a problematic aspect of the text. Lily stood opposed (literally) to what Voldemort wanted. This need not be lauded as the position of brave people! It's the position of everyone who isn't a monster. That her life was on the line was definitely a consequential circumstance, but in its essence, her decision was just to continue to be a good person. Did she choose to be a good person? Did she choose to love Harry? I don't think so. And she didn't choose to be in a life-or-death situation in the first place, so her reaction to it--which is the reaction we all expect and the only one we would ever accept--is hardly a matter of courage versus cowardice, it's a matter of being capable of love and the heavy responsibility that comes along with that. She isn't choosing between "what is right and what is easy," she's choosing between what is automatic and what is abhorrent.

How then can we really attach choice to what transpired? More than a few people have already mentioned that Lily did what most mothers would do in that situation. Unless we are led to conclude that a mother at some point, or even continually, makes a conscious decision to love her children, then what happened was inevitable, simply because Lily is a decent person who must behave decently. She didn't choose to love Harry any more than I choose to love my parents, and yet we say she chose to stand up to Voldemort when she acted in accordance with the love she felt.
<snip>
She isn't choosing between "what is right and what is easy," she's choosing between what is automatic and what is abhorrent.
I underlined choosing. Yes, I believe she made a choice.

I agree that we as human beings - and characters in books - do not choose our feelings, but we do choose our actions, and we are responsible for our behavior.

For example, if I'm on a low calorie diet, I may have no choice but to feel intense hunger, and perhaps most people would give in to temptation, but the choice to eat is ultimately mine. I believe most people choose to give up their ability to choose, and prefer to blame external circumstances and choose to do what is easy, rather than what is right, or in their best interests in the long run.

Even if the choice appears obvious, that person is still making a decision. Even if it's the one most people would have chosen IMHO. The mere fact that Lily made the same decision that most mothers would make does not mean she didn't make a choice, and the choice she chose was to be brave and not stand aside.

The mere fact that Lily made the same decision that most mothers would make does not mean she didn't make a choice, and the choice she chose was to be brave and not stand aside.
I'm not going to press the point any further, but in the end I think you're talking about ways we (or any third party) might characterize what she did, not what was actually going on inside her head. I think to say she chose to be brave and not stand aside assumes that not standing aside was an option. It comes down to whether we think Lily capable of considering, even for a moment, letting Voldemort kill her son. Because if she made a choice to do the opposite, she must have. To choose between two options means weighing the costs and benefits, considering the consequences, and making a decision. Not only do I not believe this could occur in the heat of the moment when Lily stood up to Voldemort, I think for it to have happened would have written a much colder Lily than I'm comfortable with.

I submit, again, and finally, that it never would have occurred to her in a million years to stand aside: That the choice was made for her by her very nature as a loving mother, and not by her conscious mind. She did not choose to stand there, she failed to choose not to. And this is, I think, much more to her credit than any form of "choosing to be brave."

To choose between two options means weighing the costs and benefits, considering the consequences, and making a decision. Not only do I not believe this could occur in the heat of the moment when Lily stood up to Voldemort, I think for it to have happened would have written a much colder Lily than I'm comfortable with.

Ah - I see what you're saying. You see it as an automatic response, and not a conscious decision.

Well, on a day to day basis, Lily chose loving actions towards her son. She fed him, clothed him, comforted him, and changed his diapers. She built up a pattern of behavior inside her unconscious, based on her previous choices, so when she had to make a split second decision, she chose to not stand aside.

If you love someone, you will behave in a loving manner towards that person. But - on the flip side, if you don't like someone, does that justify being cruel to them? It explains it, yes. Absolutely. But I don't see it as justification.

In an extreme situation, i think most people follow their habits, and those habits were created from past choices, and I do believe we can make different choices and build different habits and automatic responses, but i also believe it's a challenge.

Ah - I see what you're saying. You see it as an automatic response, and not a conscious decision.

Well, on a day to day basis, Lily chose loving actions towards her son. She fed him, clothed him, comforted him, and changed his diapers. She built up a pattern of behavior inside her unconscious, based on her previous choices, so when she had to make a split second decision, she chose to not stand aside.

If you love someone, you will behave in a loving manner towards that person. But - on the flip side, if you don't like someone, does that justify being cruel to them? It explains it, yes. Absolutely. But I don't see it as justification.

In an extreme situation, i think most people follow their habits, and those habits were created from past choices, and I do believe we can make different choices and build different habits and automatic responses, but i also believe it's a challenge.

Whether the decision was conscious or maternal instinct, Lily still was given a choice to step aside, and she didn't do it. So Harry gained the protection of her love.

Tom Riddle's mother too, had a choice. And she took the opposite course. After his birth she chose to take whatever actions that brought about her death. She gave up. Her love for her child wasn't enough to keep her alive. Lily's love for Harry made her willing to turn down an offer to live. I think that's where we see how courage and love make a difference. Merope felt so sorry for herself that she didn't want to live, even to make a life for Tom. Lily loved Harry so much she didn't think of herself -- again whether it was conscious or instinct, her thoughts were for Harry's protection -- so she died to save him. That's why, IMO, Voldemort couldn't understand that kind of love and the protections it provided.