Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis

I've really opened up the proverbial Pandora's Box.

Without quoting anyone specifically, I think even if Voldemort had stupified Lily or had thrown her aside and killed Harry, he would have killed Lily, to make a clean job of it all. It's been established and I undoubtedly have repeated for the upteenth time that Tom Riddle was a sociopath.

I think in the sense of an Anton Chigurgh (the antagonist of No Country for Old Men, that flips a coin and lets a person decide whether he will murder them or not) it was a matter of telling a person that they did not need to die but ultimately he would kill them none the less. He didn't need a reason, he didn't care for Severus so long as he believed that Severus was loyal to him. After all, he told Severus that there were far better women out there, far purer, far more proper. Thus, Voldemort once again by denying the concept of love to give him insight helped to create his own downfall.

Lily Potter had no choice, it was either lose her soul by stepping aside and allowing the man who had murdered the love of her life, her husband, murder her only child. Which she would never have done, or try to shield Harry from Voldemort. Considering that neither James nor Lily had wands on them when Voldemort attacked the house, fighting back was impossible.

It may have been as good as no choice but technically, she did have one.


Tell me what you would have done if you had been Lily, I mean, considering you believe her sacrifice was cowardly.

I would have tried to hide myself and Harry. When Voldemort found us, I would have begged and pleaded with him for my kid's life. Grovelled at his feet and sold my soul to spare Harry's life. Embarassed and debased myself if I had to. I don't think the way I would have acted could be called courageous. I'm not overcoming fear and looking death in the eye here. Rather I'm totally overcome by fear of losing the child and willing to throw all my principles out the window to prevent it from happening.


Snape ran to Dumbledore because he realised than, the magnitude of his mistake by snitching to the Dark Lord about the prophesy. He told Dumbledore he only cared about Lily but relented and told him to protect the whole family in any way possible. His wish to die, was a result of the failure of the concealment. I don't think he realised until than that Voldemort would stop at nothing. Snape's strength of character and redeeming quality was his love for Lily Evans. He lost all of that on October 31st. His wish to die had nothing to do with self-preservation. Nor did Dumbledore's wish to take the rage of Gellert Grindelwald when he was using the cruciatus curse on his brother and whatever evil he committed against his sister.

Snape wanting to die had everything to do with self preservation. As Dumbledore says, Snape's death would help nobody but Snape himself. Snape did not want to deal with consequences of her death; it was easier and less painful for him to be dead.

As for Dumbledore, he wanted someone to kill him because he didn't want to face that scene. He was trying to protect himself.


The statement that Lily placed herself in front of a killing curse by Voldemort simply because she didn't want to live in a world without Harry or James is ludicrous. Mind boggling, I think you are forgetting that neither James nor Lily had a wand on them when Voldemort burst in. They could not fight back, they could not disapparate.

Why ? Why do you find it ludicrous and mind boggling that a mother simply could not endure the thought of her child being killed ?


Well, let me ask you this. Where is the source in the books that claims that she had no idea of what she did by dying in protection of Harry? Harry evoked the ancient magic of protective love by thinking about it, by wishing it, by desiring it when he sacrificed himself in the Forbidden Forest. It worked, Voldemort was unable to cast spells which could last against those that Harry loved; his two best friends, Luna, Neville, the Weasley family, Professor McGonagall and the rest of the Order.

Well, in the whole scene with Voldemort, she did not look like she had any plan of thwarting Voldemort. As for Harry dying for everyone and becoming a wizarding Jesus, I'm not too comfortable with that idea. I'd prefer to believe that the spells didn't work because Voldemort was using a wand whose master was Harry.


How would it have been brave if Lily was afraid of dying?

She would have had to overcome her fear of dying and put herself on the line.


Was she really afraid of death though? Besides, I think you're contradicting yourself here. You said she would have been brave if she was afraid of dying and now you're saying she was afraid and that made her 'selfish'

My point is that her fear of death would be completely overwhelmed by her fear of losing her child.


She didn't want her son to be murdered, that is all. It has nothing to do with one fear overwhelming another. She did what she felt would potentially protect Harry. Sacrificing herself and thus evoking the ancient magic of love and the bound of protection it would give to the son she loved.

If she did knowingly evoke the protection, then I would agree that it was a brave action. The way that scene plays does not give me that impression.


Bravery comes in many forms, to be a brave, a hero isn't necessarily limited to those who overcome their fear of death. We can only assume that Dobby did not wish to die when he came to rescue the trio and the prisoners of Malfoy Manor. He came despite his traumatic experience of having served the Malfoy family. Despite all of that, he still fought back, he saved the trio and the rest of the Prisoners and died as a result. He may not have consciously come over his fear of death, he was simply doing what he needed to do to ensure that his friends would not be killed. Regulus and Harry, knew that they were sacrificing their lives (which obviously still makes them brave), however Dobby's sacrifice does not make him any less brave because he unknowingly went to his death.

Dobby was brave when he came to Malfoy Manor. He is brave because he had to deal with his fear and come. His fear was not the fear of death but the fear of coming back to the place of his former masters. It doesn't matter what the fear is as long as you can do the right thing inspite of it.


Bravery is intangible, it cannot be measured, nor grasped nor tasted because of that, their isn't a single definition of what makes one brave.

For me, a brave act is one where the person has to overcome personal fears in order to perform it. This would vary among people obviously. One person's brave act may not necessarily be a brave act for someone else.


Voldemort was first and foremost a sociopath and a serial killer. He lied about everything, from covering up his past to covering up his true intentions to lying about his motives and attempting to make himself bigger and better than he was. I don't think for a minute we can doubt that Tom Riddle was about to keep his bargain. He did not care for his followers, Dumbledore said so himself; he merely viewed them as servants to do the more menial tasks he didn't want to bother himself with. Voldemort having been limited in his intelligence and understanding of people, probably believed that if he made Severus believe he was about to spare Lily's life that would make him more loyal.

I think its pretty clear that Voldemort intended Lily to live. He may have killed her eventually but he certainly had no intention of killing her if she was willing to step aside.

In that situation, wandless, what was the bravest thing she could have done?

I don't think there is much she could have done. I would have preferred her to have stood there and given Voldemort a bit of attitude though.


To clarify here, I'm not saying that Lily wasn't a courageous person just that IMO this particular act wasn't some incredible feat of bravery.

I would have tried to hide myself and Harry. When Voldemort found us, I would have begged and pleaded with him for my kid's life. Grovelled at his feet and sold my soul to spare Harry's life. Embarassed and debased myself if I had to. I don't think the way I would have acted could be called courageous. I'm not overcoming fear and looking death in the eye here. Rather I'm totally overcome by fear of losing the child and willing to throw all my principles out the window to prevent it from happening.

Lily's primal act goes deeper than 'fear of losing the child'. Lily wasn't just concerned about her own feelings of grief. She wanted to save Harry for his own sake, not just because she would suffer devastating grief if he was killed (as unbearable as that would have been). Indeed, she was prepared to be killed in the place of Harry.

As for Harry dying for everyone and becoming a wizarding Jesus, I'm not too comfortable with that idea. I'd prefer to believe that the spells didn't work because Voldemort was using a wand whose master was Harry.

'Harry as wizarding Jesus' is quite a commonly held trope in the fandom. I actually share your reservations over the idea, but this is not the thread to discus it. :)

She would have had to overcome her fear of dying and put herself on the line.

:hmm: But that's what she did do. She begs Voldemort not to kill Harry but to kill her instead.

My point is that her fear of death would be completely overwhelmed by her fear of losing her child.

That's how the scene plays out to me, though. She offers herself instead of Harry, doesn't she?

If she did knowingly evoke the protection, then I would agree that it was a brave action. The way that scene plays does not give me that impression.

I totally agree that Lily did not knowingly evoke the magical protection. Nowhere in canon are we given that idea. Lily is just a desperate young woman, and a loving mother who will do anything, even sacrifice herself, to save her baby.

(I don't believe Harry realised what his own self-sacrifice in DH would entail, either. He didn't go to Voldemort in the belief that offering himself up to death would activate a magical protection shield).

For me, a brave act is one where the person has to overcome personal fears in order to perform it. This would vary among people obviously. One person's brave act may not necessarily be a brave act for someone else.

The text shows Lily as being terrified. But her terror is above all about her baby son: she is prepared to put his life before her own. :cool:

I don't think there is much she could have done. I would have preferred her to have stood there and given Voldemort a bit of attitude though.

That would make good literature :) but maybe isn't all that realistic. :cool:

To clarify here, I'm not saying that Lily wasn't a courageous person just that IMO this particular act wasn't some incredible feat of bravery.

I think it was a loving, self-sacrificial act and a brave one.

It may have been as good as no choice but technically, she did have one.

I would have tried to hide myself and Harry. When Voldemort found us, I would have begged and pleaded with him for my kid's life. Grovelled at his feet and sold my soul to spare Harry's life. Embarassed and debased myself if I had to. I don't think the way I would have acted could be called courageous. I'm not overcoming fear and looking death in the eye here. Rather I'm totally overcome by fear of losing the child and willing to throw all my principles out the window to prevent it from happening.

Lily didn't have much of a chance to hide Harry (although I have wondered why she didn't disapparate with him as soon as she reached his room). After all, they were not expecting Voldemort to drop by. As for the begging, etc., I doubt it would have made any difference, but she did beg him not to kill Harry and to kill her instead.

Speaking as a mother, it is not the fear of losing a child, but the fear of the child being harmed or killed, which is foremost in one's mind. You're not thinking what your life will be without them, you're thinking that they will have no life if you don't do something to save them.


Snape wanting to die had everything to do with self preservation. As Dumbledore says, Snape's death would help nobody but Snape himself. Snape did not want to deal with consequences of her death; it was easier and less painful for him to be dead.

As for Dumbledore, he wanted someone to kill him because he didn't want to face that scene. He was trying to protect himself.

Will address this on the Snape/Dumbledore thread.


Why ? Why do you find it ludicrous and mind boggling that a mother simply could not endure the thought of her child being killed ?

It's not ludicrous, it's just not the first thing that comes to mind. The child being in danger is. The fact that they will be hurt or die, not that it will hurt you to lose them, is what drives a mother to protect her child.


Well, in the whole scene with Voldemort, she did not look like she had any plan of thwarting Voldemort. As for Harry dying for everyone and becoming a wizarding Jesus, I'm not too comfortable with that idea. I'd prefer to believe that the spells didn't work because Voldemort was using a wand whose master was Harry.

I think this is more for the Harry thread, but, it was not my idea that Harry was dying "for everyone" but that Harry had to die to kill the last shred of Voldemort's soul. I think there's a difference. And, he was willing to do that because he knew that he would eliminate the Dark Lord and others would be able to go on with their lives. This is, again, one person sacrificing themselves for another/others. Why does a soldier throw himself on a grenade to save a group of his buddies? Not because he'll miss them, not because he'll be a big hero, but because his thought is to save their lives.


She would have had to overcome her fear of dying and put herself on the line.

Since Lily wasn't AK'd immediately, like James was, she probably did have a few moments to be afraid, but, IMO, her action would have been instantaneous: to throw herself between Voldemort and Harry.

My point is that her fear of death would be completely overwhelmed by her fear of losing her child.

Sorry to nit-pick, but we're back again to the "fear of losing a child" phrase. IMO, in cases where mothers (and other people) put their lives on the line and may ultimately die, it is not because they're thinking "what am I going to do without you?" It is because they do not want the other person to experience harm or death and are willing to do that themselves to save their loved one.

If she did knowingly evoke the protection, then I would agree that it was a brave action. The way that scene plays does not give me that impression.

First, I don't think she had that much time to consider it. Second, it was her selflessness, not knowing that there was going to be any other result other than Harry remaining alive, that made the protection work.

Dobby was brave when he came to Malfoy Manor. He is brave because he had to deal with his fear and come. His fear was not the fear of death but the fear of coming back to the place of his former masters. It doesn't matter what the fear is as long as you can do the right thing inspite of it.

But, do you have to be consciously thinking of that fear for it to be a brave act? So many brave acts are a quick reaction to a situation rather than having to steel one's self to take action. Howerver, IMO, it doesn't lessen the act of bravery because it is a person's first instinct to protect someone they love.

For me, a brave act is one where the person has to overcome personal fears in order to perform it. This would vary among people obviously. One person's brave act may not necessarily be a brave act for someone else.

(See above)

To clarify here, I'm not saying that Lily wasn't a courageous person just that IMO this particular act wasn't some incredible feat of bravery.

I do see it as an incredible feat of bravery. Anytime one person sacrifices themselves to save another it is an incredible feat of bravery.

The point I was making when this discussion began was that Lily's was not anymore courageous than others who did the same thing. Her bravery, IMO, is not questionable. I was just saying that she shouldn't be held up as more courageous above the others who gave their lives during the war with Voldemort was.

I totally agree that Lily did not knowingly evoke the magical protection. Nowhere in canon are we given that idea. Lily is just a desperate young woman, and a loving mother who will do anything, even sacrifice herself, to save her baby.

(I don't believe Harry realised what his own self-sacrifice in DH would entail, either. He didn't go to Voldemort in the belief that offering himself up to death would activate a magical protection shield).

I still don't see the evidence that it was not on purpose. Harry wished that his death would protect his loved ones, he hoped that when he entered with the 'victorious' Death Eaters, that his sacrifice would protect his loved ones and it worked. Can we be sure how that ancient magic of sacrifice works in this case? No, we don't know and it appears that it didn't need an incantation, a wave of a wand; simply hope and action. Thus, it would seem that it was on purpose. He had to think of it, wish it, hope it, in order for it to work.

I do see it as an incredible feat of bravery. Anytime one person sacrifices themselves to save another it is an incredible feat of bravery.

The point I was making when this discussion began was that Lily's was not anymore courageous than others who did the same thing. Her bravery, IMO, is not questionable. I was just saying that she shouldn't be held up as more courageous above the others who gave their lives during the war with Voldemort was.
Yet the problematic reality is she had no reason to expect that sacrificing herself would save her son. I mean, we've all sliced and diced the scene before, but her intent clearly could not have been to save Harry unless she completely lost her head. Which, she might have done, it was an extraordinary situation.

In some ways I think this is a rather too popular fictional trope--the idea of "taking a bullet" for someone as a grand gesture of sacrifice. After all, the bad guy probably has another bullet in his gun! I'm not saying Lily shouldn't have stood her ground, but I can't imagine she thought doing so was going to materially benefit her son beyond creating short delay.

(Is it fair to evaluate her behavior in this way? Yes, I think so, because I consider it the Potters' responsibility to have planned for this eventuality. And they evidently never did.)

I still don't see the evidence that it was not on purpose. Harry wished that his death would protect his loved ones, he hoped that when he entered with the 'victorious' Death Eaters, that his sacrifice would protect his loved ones and it worked. Can we be sure how that ancient magic of sacrifice works in this case? No, we don't know and it appears that it didn't need an incantation, a wave of a wand; simply hope and action. Thus, it would seem that it was on purpose. He had to think of it, wish it, hope it, in order for it to work.

Harry went to his death in the forest primarily to get rid of himself as a horcrux so that Voldemort could be defeated and thereby protect the world from the Dark Lord. But he did not realize that he would invoke the same magic on their behalf as his mother did until he discussed it with Dumbledore in King's Cross.

I also believe that Dumbledore purposely did not tell Harry there was a small chance that he would survive precisely because Dumbledore knew that if Harry fully sacrificed himself he would evoke that magical protection on his comrades.

However, if someone comes to me and wants to apologize, no matter who they are (and especially in the case of someone I once considered a "best friend" at one point) I think it's only fair to hear them out.

And I think it's only fair to expect a "best friend", or any "friend" to not hang out with people who consider you filth. I think it's only fair to expect a "friend" to not racially abuse you. What could Snape possibly tell Lily that would make her excuse his racism?

Once you've heard what they have to say, then i believe you have every right to close the door on them and end the relationship. Lily didn't do that. When she walked out of the Common Room to speak to him, she had her mind made up. To me, a kind, fair person would have heard him out first, and then made a decision. I got the impression she was already looking for a reason to end her relationship with him, and he gave her one.

Lily had her mind made up because she was no longer kidding herself about Snape. When she experienced the hurt and betrayal of her so-called friend throwing racial abuse at her, I think she could no longer deny what he was becoming. And, as she was fully and completely opposed to that dark path, she could no longer continue that toxic friendship.
To me, a doormat would have entertained excuses for racial abuse. Kind and fair are not synonymous with doormat. Lily didn't owe it to Snape to listen to excuses as to why he told her she was unworthy filth.

No disagreement here. It would have been a trait that served her well during the war.

It wouldnt have served her at all if she'd been willing to compromise on them and turn a blind eye to Snape's DE inclinations.


What I mean by everyone having their own individual bravery scale is that my scale is calibrated differently than yours. On you scale Lily might achieve a 10 of 10, on mine she gets more like an 8 of 10 because I think Harry's walk into the forest is a more flat-out-brave act. For the next poster, Lily might rank a 9, for the one after than she might rank a 6.

What I meant was that not everyone rates courage on a scale.

Everyone interprets "how brave she was by sacrificing herself" by different factors.

And criticises her for it for not-so-different factors. :shrug:

It's definitely debated, especially in these threads, which I find really interesting. Just because you are friends with someone and they have more than friendly feelings towards you, that does not mean you, as their friend, have to return those feelings in kind. Lily didn't have to love Snape just because he loved her. That's not how love works. At least not to me.

I agree. Lily wasn't some object that Snape was entitled to. I completely agree that nobody is obliged to return someone else's feelings - not in real life and not in fiction. (I blame Hollywood, but that's for another thread) Lily didn't exist solely to make Snape feel good. She was a person with her own feelings and opinions and unfortunately for Snape, she dared to think for herself rather than blindly follow what he told her.


The big difference between Hermione Ron and Harry's friendship and Lily and Snape's friendship is that Lily knew a very different Snape than everyone else did.

A (slightly :D) bigger difference is that none of the trio joined the criminals who were trying to murder their friends.


She knew the little boy who played on the playground with her and told her it didn't matter than she was a muggleborn. She was steeped in Nice-Snape for years before he began to morph into Proto-DE-Snape and she probably couldn't reconcille the Proto-DE face he showed the world at Hogwarts with the one she grew up with.

We've all heard the phrase "Put a frog in boiling water and he'll jump out but put him in cold water and heat it up and he'll stay in there until he boils to death."

Where Snape is concerned, Lily was put in the water when it was cold.

I think that fits rather well. I agree with your assessment - Lily didn't see, or didn't want to see the changes in Snape. For a long time, she convinced herself that he was still the same boy she had befriended, long after others could see that he was immersing himself in Dark Magic and bigotry.

Ultimately all I was trying to say was that I find some unresolved conflicts within the entire philosophy of the series, namely the emphasis on choice as contrasted to the power of love. And I think Lily's sacrifice neatly encapsulates my confusion.

Love doesn't mean that a person becomes a mindless drone. It doesn't mean that a person loses the ability to think or choose.

In other words, her choice was not a real choice between standing there and not standing there, it was obvious that she would stand there, always and every time, unless for some reason she chose not to. Her agency in that scene is an illusion woven by our desire to attach credit to her actions, when in reality, and in the opinions of several posters I've just read, she did the only thing any of us could stomach reading about.

I'm not quite sure I understand - Lily doesn't deserve credit for protecting her son? Lily doesn't deserve credit for being willing to die to protect her child? I think that's a little strange. Given the things that credit is actually given for.

My underlying motive here is to wonder why we need to worry about whether it was brave in the first place. I think people are interpreting my comments as some sort of criticism of Lily, but in reality I think it's just a problematic aspect of the text. Lily stood opposed (literally) to what Voldemort wanted. This need not be lauded as the position of brave people! It's the position of everyone who isn't a monster.

Lily standing opposed to what Voldemort wanted is what anyone not a monster would do? :hmm: Interesting. So, everyone who supported Voldemort was a monster? Seems to be the extension of what you're saying.

That her life was on the line was definitely a consequential circumstance, but in its essence, her decision was just to continue to be a good person. Did she choose to be a good person?

I think she did choose to be a good person. A lesser person would have chosen to become a DE, or a mob-wife and blindly ignored what was going on as long as they themselves were safe. People chose their side in that war, Lily among them. Lily chose to oppose and defy the most malevolent group of wizards that were threatening their community.

I agree that we as human beings - and characters in books - do not choose our feelings, but we do choose our actions, and we are responsible for our behavior.

I agree with that. People are responsible for their actions.

It comes down to whether we think Lily capable of considering, even for a moment, letting Voldemort kill her son. Because if she made a choice to do the opposite, she must have. To choose between two options means weighing the costs and benefits, considering the consequences, and making a decision. Not only do I not believe this could occur in the heat of the moment when Lily stood up to Voldemort, I think for it to have happened would have written a much colder Lily than I'm comfortable with.

Just because Lily would never have chosen to stand aside, does not change the fact that it was an option. It was a possibility, it was not one she would ever take, but the choice was there. If it had not been a choice, it would not have saved Harry.

Without quoting anyone specifically, I think even if Voldemort had stupified Lily or had thrown her aside and killed Harry, he would have killed Lily, to make a clean job of it all. It's been established and I undoubtedly have repeated for the upteenth time that Tom Riddle was a sociopath.

Oh, he did enjoy murder and taunting his victims. However, Lily was to have been a reward for a DE - and Voldemort's rewards, as shown with Wormtail's hand, seem to be double-edged swords.


Why ? Why do you find it ludicrous and mind boggling that a mother simply could not endure the thought of her child being killed ?

Is it mind-boggling to consider that perhaps there was more to it than just Lily not wanting to live without Harry? Lily wanted her child to have a chance to grow up. Not just for her sake, but for his. IMO, Lily viewed her child as a person in his own right and not simply an object for her happiness. Of course she didn't want him to be killed. I don't think this was selfish.


If she did knowingly evoke the protection, then I would agree that it was a brave action. The way that scene plays does not give me that impression.

So, it's only brave if she knew some good would come of it?

I don't think there is much she could have done. I would have preferred her to have stood there and given Voldemort a bit of attitude though.

I think refusing to obey this monster that had most of the wizarding world quaking in their boots was attitude.

Lily didn't have much of a chance to hide Harry (although I have wondered why she didn't disapparate with him as soon as she reached his room). After all, they were not expecting Voldemort to drop by. As for the begging, etc., I doubt it would have made any difference, but she did beg him not to kill Harry and to kill her instead.

She didn't have her wand with her, so could not Apparate. And in any case, the Potters probably had anti-Apparation spells - Dumbledore mentions in HBP that most wizarding homes use them.

The point I was making when this discussion began was that Lily's was not anymore courageous than others who did the same thing. Her bravery, IMO, is not questionable. I was just saying that she shouldn't be held up as more courageous above the others who gave their lives during the war with Voldemort was.

That's debatable. But my point is, nor should her courage be dismissed as insignificant on the grounds that "most parents would do that". That doesn't make it any less brave.

Harry went to his death in the forest primarily to get rid of himself as a horcrux so that Voldemort could be defeated and thereby protect the world from the Dark Lord. But he did not realize that he would invoke the same magic on their behalf as his mother did until he discussed it with Dumbledore in King's Cross.

Yes, but he did wish that he could die for others. That was what he was thinking as he walked down the Marble staircase hidden underneath his cloak, reminiscing about the best memories of his life with Ron and Hermione, his heart aching with the fact that he'd never get to say goodbye because he knew that he wouldn't be able to leave them. He loved them that much and it was during this time before he came up to Neville to tell him about the snake, that he wished he could die like his parents. Sacrificing himself for his loved ones.

Harry wished and even said to have envied his parents sacrifice and how noble it would be if he could die protecting those he loved by stepping in front of a curse meant for someone.

In the end, it can only be assumed how the magic is invoked. However, being selfless and thinking of others. Desiring that your death will somehow invoke a defence; I think that may have invoked that ancient magic which helped Harry survive.

Lily had her mind made up because she was no longer kidding herself about Snape. When she experienced the hurt and betrayal of her so-called friend throwing racial abuse at her, I think she could no longer deny what he was becoming. And, as she was fully and completely opposed to that dark path, she could no longer continue that toxic friendship.
To me, a doormat would have entertained excuses for racial abuse. Kind and fair are not synonymous with doormat. Lily didn't owe it to Snape to listen to excuses as to why he told her she was unworthy filth.

I agree, Lily had told Severus on at least one occasion that the group of thugs Severus hung around with, were people she did not approve of. He would switch the subject, turn it around on her about the Marauders. Severus did not realise that this was casting a rift between them. To associate himself with people who were supremacists themselves, by almost apologizing for their behaviour by implying that the Marauders were just as bad.

Severus was ignored as a child, he chose the future Death Eaters because they accepted him; he was an intelligent student who was quite apt at the Dart Arts and Potioneering. They likely did not tease him, they thought highly of him and hence why he thought highly of them. For the first time in his life he was part of something bigger than himself, and I can say that for many who are abandoned who often make the choice between what is right and what is easy, Severus did not make a unique choice. However, I think it's unfair to blame Lily for the fact that their friendship ended. It was after all, on a very rocky bed for a time prior to that. She was trying to show the best of Severus to her friends, her friends thought otherwise and perhaps due to peer pressure and seeing what his 'friends' were like, it would be hard not to be a bit more inclined to be uncertain.

The incident in Snape's worst memory just solidified her belief that Snape believed in what the group he hung out with did. He may have attempted to dissuade Lily before, she was obviously willing to overlook the group's supremacist views, simply believing that Snape was different; however the angry outburst like daggers tore her up. She could no longer justify believing that Snape had just fallen in with the wrong crowd. He was one of them. He believed in what they believed.

Love doesn't mean that a person becomes a mindless drone. It doesn't mean that a person loses the ability to think or choose.
Here's where I think you're right in principle, but wrong about this situation. Lily was not thinking about what she should or shouldn't do, she wasn't prepared for what was happening, and she certainly did not spend time reasoning about other ways of resolving the situation. If she had, her actions and the outcome would have been different.

We might say that she chose at some point, in some abstract way, to protect Harry at any cost, but if she had done that, she probably would not have been left with only her body as a defense. I stick by what I said. The only thing I we can really know for sure is that her love for Harry was the reason she stood there.

I'm not quite sure I understand - Lily doesn't deserve credit for protecting her son? Lily doesn't deserve credit for being willing to die to protect her child? I think that's a little strange. Given the things that credit is actually given for.
I have no interest in blame or credit, as I hope my many posts have proved by now. Giving Lily credit for bravery is fine--go for it--but it doesn't explain what happened or why she did it.

Lily standing opposed to what Voldemort wanted is what anyone not a monster would do? :hmm: Interesting. So, everyone who supported Voldemort was a monster? Seems to be the extension of what you're saying.
I wouldn't take my comment out of context in quite that way: Anyone who would agree to let someone murder their child is a monster... is that a controversial opinion? :lol:

So, it's only brave if she knew some good would come of it?
There's always a fine line between bravery and desperation. Let's say one person describes something thusly: "fighting against impossible odds, giving one's life to protect the innocent, dying in the name of what is right and good." Sounds romantic, and courageous, doesn't it? But another more cynical person might see that same thing as "throwing one's life away in a desperate final act, knowing there is no chance of success, doing the only thing one can to avoid the sting of defeat." Who is right, if the act itself is identical?

I'm not disputing whether anyone might call Lily's sacrifice brave, I just don't think bravery was the operative quality that led to her standing her ground. To conclude that bravery is responsible I think not only cheapens the act itself, but makes the magical result impossible.

Yet the problematic reality is she had no reason to expect that sacrificing herself would save her son. I mean, we've all sliced and diced the scene before, but her intent clearly could not have been to save Harry unless she completely lost her head. Which, she might have done, it was an extraordinary situation.

In some ways I think this is a rather too popular fictional trope--the idea of "taking a bullet" for someone as a grand gesture of sacrifice. After all, the bad guy probably has another bullet in his gun! I'm not saying Lily shouldn't have stood her ground, but I can't imagine she thought doing so was going to materially benefit her son beyond creating short delay.

(Is it fair to evaluate her behavior in this way? Yes, I think so, because I consider it the Potters' responsibility to have planned for this eventuality. And they evidently never did.)

I guess I'm still not sure why whatever someone has in their mind at the time should lessen the level of courage it takes to sacrifice their life in the attempt to save another's. Or, how "taking a bullet for someone" can be seen as other than heroic. Yes, it is a good trope, but, it's not always in literature that this happens. It happens in real life and, IMO, giving one's life for another is truly the ultimate sacrifice, no matter whether you know that it's useless or not.

Back to the guy throwing himself on the grenade (which is not literary trope, but has actually happened many times): for all he knows the explosion will still badly injure or kill his buddies, but he makes an attempt and sacrifices his life to try to stop, or at least limit, that.

Maybe Lily thought that the Order was on it's way -- having Voldmort show up, she may have thought they were right behind and she was buying time for Harry. Or, maybe she thought that Voldemort had some kind of heart and that her sacrifice would be enough to stop him from killing Harry. Or, maybe she wasn't thinking at all, but just reacting as a mother trying to protect her child as best she could, which meant stepping between him and Voldemort.

I tend to think that the Potters should have made plans for a "what if Voldy gets through" scenario, too. But, that does not take away from her bravery in facing Voldemort and begging for him to kill her instead of Harry.

I guess I'm still not sure why whatever someone has in their mind at the time should lessen the level of courage it takes to sacrifice their life in the attempt to save another's. Or, how "taking a bullet for someone" can be seen as other than heroic. Yes, it is a good trope, but, it's not always in literature that this happens. It happens in real life and, IMO, giving one's life for another is truly the ultimate sacrifice, no matter whether you know that it's useless or not.

Back to the guy throwing himself on the grenade (which is not literary trope, but has actually happened many times): for all he knows the explosion will still badly injure or kill his buddies, but he makes an attempt and sacrifices his life to try to stop, or at least limit, that.
What I'm saying, if nothing else, is that the instinct to protect a child has nothing to do with being brave or not being brave. Saying Lily acted with bravery does nothing to aid in my understanding of the situation, and it doesn't even really need to be there for things to play out the same way, if you ask me.

Maybe Lily thought that the Order was on it's way -- having Voldmort show up, she may have thought they were right behind and she was buying time for Harry. Or, maybe she thought that Voldemort had some kind of heart and that her sacrifice would be enough to stop him from killing Harry. Or, maybe she wasn't thinking at all, but just reacting as a mother trying to protect her child as best she could, which meant stepping between him and Voldemort.

I tend to think that the Potters should have made plans for a "what if Voldy gets through" scenario, too. But, that does not take away from her bravery in facing Voldemort and begging for him to kill her instead of Harry.
Yeah I mean, that's a separate issue that's bothered me for some time now. If someone's out to kill you or your children, there's really no good excuse to let your guard down, no matter who you trust or how safe you think you are.

For me, the issue I have with Lily isn't so much the reason she ended her relationship with Snape. She had every right to do so. However, if someone comes to me and wants to apologize, no matter who they are (and especially in the case of someone I once considered a "best friend" at one point) I think it's only fair to hear them out. Once you've heard what they have to say, then i believe you have every right to close the door on them and end the relationship. Lily didn't do that. When she walked out of the Common Room to speak to him, she had her mind made up. To me, a kind, fair person would have heard him out first, and then made a decision. I got the impression she was already looking for a reason to end her relationship with him, and he gave her one.

And I think it's only fair to expect a "best friend", or any "friend" to not hang out with people who consider you filth. I think it's only fair to expect a "friend" to not racially abuse you. What could Snape possibly tell Lily that would make her excuse his racism?

I'm of two minds about this issue. I agree with MerryLore in that it's accepted as the kind and fair thing to hear a friend (or former friend) out if they are trying to apologize and also agree with Furrydice about Snape not really having any way to defend his actions against Lily.

On the other hand, the only thing I can really say against MerryLore's statement is that Snape went to apologize the same day the incident went down and the intervening time Lily spent apart from him she had probably been berated by her friends in Gryffindor saying things like "See? We told you he was no good!" Meanwhile, she's still stinging from the incident in the first place, feeling like she's been duped by her best friend and generally not letting herself get any distance from the situation. The outcome of all of this would be Lily still in the frame of mind not to be reasonable when Snape comes to apologize because she's still so worked up about the issue.

The best thing I think would have been to wait a couple days for her to cool off, but at the same time, Snape didn't have many options and going to her right away to apologize might have been the only thing he could have done to keep her in his life. Had he waited those couple days to cool off she might have at least heard her out, but at the same time she might have come to the conclusion that there was no way she could continue their friendship and the relationship would still be over.

What I meant was that not everyone rates courage on a scale.

IMO there are excedingly few things that can be judged on an either/or basis, maybe even none at all. Not even death can be an either/or thing because you can still have a beating heart and working organs but you could have suffered enough brain damage to never wake from a coma. For all intents and purposes, your body is alive but your brain is dead.

Bravery or courage to me is, similarly, not an either/or situation. There are too many ways to interpret someone's actions and motivations, too many factors to consider. It's generally accepted that Lily's act was an act of bravery or courage but how brave or courageous it was is dependant on the person interpreting those events.

And criticises her for it for not-so-different factors. :shrug:

Everyone brings their own interpretations to things, their own life experience, their own belief system, their own judgements. In the case of Lily's sacrifice there are only so many factors we can look at so it comes down to personal interpretation of those few, not-so-different factors.

A (slightly :D) bigger difference is that none of the trio joined the criminals who were trying to murder their friends.

I suppose that could be considered a slight difference. :p

I think that fits rather well. I agree with your assessment - Lily didn't see, or didn't want to see the changes in Snape. For a long time, she convinced herself that he was still the same boy she had befriended, long after others could see that he was immersing himself in Dark Magic and bigotry.

This approach to the Lily/Snape relationship covers a lot of aspects including why Lily stubbornly defended him for so long despite apparently obvious red flags that all of her other friends saw and she didn't. She was blind to them in a way because she only saw Snape as the boy from under the tree.

Just because Lily would never have chosen to stand aside, does not change the fact that it was an option. It was a possibility, it was not one she would ever take, but the choice was there. If it had not been a choice, it would not have saved Harry.

Agreed. When it comes down to it she made a choice, however fleeting that moment was, whether it happened that night, the moment Harry was born or the day she found out she was pregnant. She made the choice to protect her son and she always had the option to choose a different path - but she didn't.

Oh, he did enjoy murder and taunting his victims. However, Lily was to have been a reward for a DE - and Voldemort's rewards, as shown with Wormtail's hand, seem to be double-edged swords.

Perhaps this should be discussed in the Voldemort thread but I never thought he would keep Lily alive and give her to Snape as a "reward." She would be too dangerous to him if she were kept alive.

She didn't have her wand with her, so could not Apparate. And in any case, the Potters probably had anti-Apparation spells - Dumbledore mentions in HBP that most wizarding homes use them.

Interesting question: would there be two versions of the spell, one forbidding people from apparating into you house and one forbidding people to apparate out of your house or would a single anti-apparition jinx serve both purposes? Because, in the case of the Potters, have the two spells would have done them a huge service in not allowing anyone in but giving them a quick way out.

Perhaps I'll move this to the little questions answered thread.

Yet the problematic reality is she had no reason to expect that sacrificing herself would save her son. I mean, we've all sliced and diced the scene before, but her intent clearly could not have been to save Harry unless she completely lost her head. Which, she might have done, it was an extraordinary situation.

In some ways I think this is a rather too popular fictional trope--the idea of "taking a bullet" for someone as a grand gesture of sacrifice. After all, the bad guy probably has another bullet in his gun! I'm not saying Lily shouldn't have stood her ground, but I can't imagine she thought doing so was going to materially benefit her son beyond creating short delay.

(Is it fair to evaluate her behavior in this way? Yes, I think so, because I consider it the Potters' responsibility to have planned for this eventuality. And they evidently never did.)

This has been a very interesting topic to discuss and has made me really ponder the finer points you have presented. Hopefully you won't mind a real-life analogy.

One day a friend was loading my horse into a trailer (she was inside with RED) and passed the lead to me through the window to secure. Just as she did that, RED went nuts and tried to run out. My only thought was that my friend was trapped in a small space with an idiot horse and I tried, with one hand, to hold on to the lead and give her a chance to escape. With a 1200 lb. berserker horse on the other end there was little chance of that. The lead cinched down on my hand and luckily pulled it inside the trailer or I would have lost 4 fingers.

Somewhere inside my brain I knew trying to hold on to RED was completely useless in this instance. But my instinct and reflex was to try and protect my friend, for which I was rewarded with a broken finger and several torn tendons. Was I brave? I don't know. What I do know is that I could not have acted any differently--even knowing my efforts were futile.

Does it matter if Lily is considered courageous or not? I don't think so. I think what mattered was her instinct to protect her son, despite the futility of the effort. Her instinct was born out of her love for Harry and it's that love, proven by her sacrifice, that invoked the ancient magic that protected him for the rest of his life.

Her situation differed from mine in that she had more time to contemplate her fate as she knew Voldemort was coming up the stairs. But when it came down to the casting of the curse, she could not abandon Harry no matter how futile she knew her efforts to be.

As far as the Potter's planning for Voldemort's eventual appearance--hard to say. Seems odd to me they wouldn't keep their wands constantly at the ready.

PS-My friend was fine--she had quite a few reflexes of her own!

We might say that she chose at some point, in some abstract way, to protect Harry at any cost, but if she had done that, she probably would not have been left with only her body as a defense. I stick by what I said. The only thing I we can really know for sure is that her love for Harry was the reason she stood there.

I agree. Her love for her child was more important to her than anything else. She would never consider the cruel offer Voldemort made to her.

I have no interest in blame or credit, as I hope my many posts have proved by now. Giving Lily credit for bravery is fine--go for it--but it doesn't explain what happened or why she did it.

I think she acted out of love, but it also took courage to do so.

I wouldn't take my comment out of context in quite that way: Anyone who would agree to let someone murder their child is a monster... is that a controversial opinion? :lol:

Just their own child? The murder of someone else's child is fine? Here's what you said:

Lily stood opposed (literally) to what Voldemort wanted. This need not be lauded as the position of brave people! It's the position of everyone who isn't a monster.

Is that to say that there's nothing brave about opposing Voldemort and that to support him is to be a monster? Opposing what Voldemort wants is the position of everyone who isn't a monster?
Is that to say that all those who opposed Voldemort and actually did something about it, didn't do anything particularly special or brave or significant?

There's always a fine line between bravery and desperation. Let's say one person describes something thusly: "fighting against impossible odds, giving one's life to protect the innocent, dying in the name of what is right and good." Sounds romantic, and courageous, doesn't it? But another more cynical person might see that same thing as "throwing one's life away in a desperate final act, knowing there is no chance of success, doing the only thing one can to avoid the sting of defeat." Who is right, if the act itself is identical?

The latter sounds like a quitter to me, and depending on the circumstances, someone who looks out only for number one. Suppose Neville and the others fighting at the Battle of Hogwarts had taken that attitude after Voldemort had shown up announcing Harry's death? I don't think the former is anything to do with "romanticism". It wasn't romanticism that Neville and the others kept fighting after Voldemort declared them defeated. Having a cause and motivation other than looking out for number one and to hell with everyone elseisn't romanticism, IMO.

I'm not disputing whether anyone might call Lily's sacrifice brave, I just don't think bravery was the operative quality that led to her standing her ground. To conclude that bravery is responsible I think not only cheapens the act itself, but makes the magical result impossible.

I don't think it cheapens anything to say that it was brave of Lily. I didn't say that bravery was the only reason she stood between her son and Voldemort. I think she acted out of love, but it also took courage.

I'm of two minds about this issue. I agree with MerryLore in that it's accepted as the kind and fair thing to hear a friend (or former friend) out if they are trying to apologize and also agree with Furrydice about Snape not really having any way to defend his actions against Lily.

It's also kind and fair to not throw racist abuse at people. It's also kind and fair to stay away from racist fanatics who want to oppress and murder, especially when your "friend" is a target of said fanaticism.

On the other hand, the only thing I can really say against MerryLore's statement is that Snape went to apologize the same day the incident went down and the intervening time Lily spent apart from him she had probably been berated by her friends in Gryffindor saying things like "See? We told you he was no good!" Meanwhile, she's still stinging from the incident in the first place, feeling like she's been duped by her best friend and generally not letting herself get any distance from the situation. The outcome of all of this would be Lily still in the frame of mind not to be reasonable when Snape comes to apologize because she's still so worked up about the issue.


Personally, I think it is reasonable to be angry and betrayed when a friend throws racist abuse at you and when a friend associates with people who want you oppressed and/or murdered. I think it's unreasonable to turn a blind eye to that kind of behaviour. I think it would have been unreasonable of Lily to support or condone that kind of behaviour.

The best thing I think would have been to wait a couple days for her to cool off, but at the same time, Snape didn't have many options and going to her right away to apologize might have been the only thing he could have done to keep her in his life. Had he waited those couple days to cool off she might have at least heard her out, but at the same time she might have come to the conclusion that there was no way she could continue their friendship and the relationship would still be over.

Cooling down would not mean that Lily would have gone and justified racist abuse, I hope. What was there for Lily to hear out? Excuses about how he only did it because he was upset, he didn't mean it and even, if pushed into saying why she was different to the other "Mudbloods", that he cares for her? All classic abuse-excuses. IMO, Lily had finally realised that she could not be in a friendship with a DE-wannabe. It was a complete contradiction to her very existence and to all her values. Once she came to her senses about the path Snape was on, Lily was not going to say that she objected to all DEs except Snape.

Perhaps this should be discussed in the Voldemort thread but I never thought he would keep Lily alive and give her to Snape as a "reward." She would be too dangerous to him if she were kept alive.

But if Voldemort had intended to kill her anyway, he wouldn't have offered her the chance to step aside - and in the flashback in DH, he considers using magic to move her aside, but then decides it would be more "prudent" to killl them all.

Just their own child? The murder of someone else's child is fine?
This confuses me. What Voldemort wanted was to kill Harry. There's no other child, and Voldemort didn't want anything else regarding Harry. Therefore, supporting what he wanted versus opposing what he wanted is a simple matter of letting Harry die or standing in the way.

Is that to say that there's nothing brave about opposing Voldemort and that to support him is to be a monster? Opposing what Voldemort wants is the position of everyone who isn't a monster?
Opposing Voldemort is not a difficult leap of opinion. I mean, I'm surprised you seem to be suggesting otherwise. Was it a difficult decision for Lily to reject the ideas Snape and his friends were espousing?

Putting one's life on the line to fight Voldemort is a brave decision. But that's not what Lily and her family were doing. They were in hiding, hoping against hope to avoid that very confrontation.

It's also kind and fair to not throw racist abuse at people. It's also kind and fair to stay away from racist fanatics who want to oppress and murder, especially when your "friend" is a target of said fanaticism.

I agree. What Snape did to her was terrible and unjustifiable if he considered himself Lily's friend. But that doesn't mean Lily can't take the high road and give him the chance to explain himself once she's in a state of mind to hear him. She doesn't have to forgive him. She doesn't have to become his friend again. She doesn't have to go back to defending him. But I think it would have been a much better situation and offered both of them more closure on the relationship had they had the opportunity to hear each other out when tempers were not so hot.

Personally, I think it is reasonable to be angry and betrayed when a friend throws racist abuse at you and when a friend associates with people who want you oppressed and/or murdered. I think it's unreasonable to turn a blind eye to that kind of behaviour. I think it would have been unreasonable of Lily to support or condone that kind of behaviour.

Thing is, though, for the five years prior to SWM Lily did turn a blind eye to Snape, or at least he occupied her blind spot. There were red flags that all of her other friends saw that made them wonder why she remained friends with him but she couldn't see them until he called her a mudblood.

Cooling down would not mean that Lily would have gone and justified racist abuse, I hope.

Please reread my post. I don't suggest she should have justified Snape's behavior or have gone running back into his arms once he apologized, I said she could have heard him out and still made the decision to end the friendship.

What was there for Lily to hear out? Excuses about how he only did it because he was upset, he didn't mean it and even, if pushed into saying why she was different to the other "Mudbloods", that he cares for her?

Yes. And in her new state of mind she might have seen such excuses for just what they were: excuses. It would have been a huge moment of closure had she been able to talk to Snape with a cool head. I, at least, never got the impression that Snape got much closure from that relationship because of the intensity and passion in their last canon exchange.

But if Voldemort had intended to kill her anyway, he wouldn't have offered her the chance to step aside - and in the flashback in DH, he considers using magic to move her aside, but then decides it would be more "prudent" to killl them all.

Answered in the Voldemort thread.

This confuses me. What Voldemort wanted was to kill Harry. There's no other child, and Voldemort didn't want anything else regarding Harry. Therefore, supporting what he wanted versus opposing what he wanted is a simple matter of letting Harry die or standing in the way.

I'm talking about murder in general, in the series, and the murder or prospective murders of children in general in the series.
And what Voldemort wanted in general. There was plenty of people Voldemort wanted to murder. It wasn't just Harry. When Lily stood between him and her child, it was just Harry. But there were many, many others he wanted to murder. Is opposing that simply the stance of "anyone who isn't a monster"? And if so, what does that make of his supporters?

Opposing Voldemort is not a difficult leap of opinion. I mean, I'm surprised you seem to be suggesting otherwise. Was it a difficult decision for Lily to reject the ideas Snape and his friends were espousing?

I think that opposing Voldemort is straightforward. I'm not suggesting otherwise. It's what anyone with a shred of decency does, IMO. And as Lily is criticised for rejecting what Snape was becoming and the bigotry he embraced, I do sometimes wonder if it's seen as a negative that Lily didn't see shades of grey to fanatical racist criminals.

What I was actually wondering is, if there's nothing particularly good about opposing Voldemort, what does it say on the other hand about those who do support him? And is there nothing special or particularly good about anyone at all who opposes Voldemort? Because it's what anyone with a conscience would do?

Putting one's life on the line to fight Voldemort is a brave decision. But that's not what Lily and her family were doing. They were in hiding, hoping against hope to avoid that very confrontation.

Not then, no. But before Lily became pregnant, she and James did put their life on the line to fight Voldemort. They joined the Order, they thrice defied him. They were hoping to avoid that confrontation so that they could keep their child safe, not because they were unwilling to put their lives on the line.

Lily's primal act goes deeper than 'fear of losing the child'. Lily wasn't just concerned about her own feelings of grief. She wanted to save Harry for his own sake, not just because she would suffer devastating grief if he was killed (as unbearable as that would have been). Indeed, she was prepared to be killed in the place of Harry.

I'll rephrase "fear of losing her child" to "fear for her child". I intended it as a blanket phrase and not a specific fear. Anything that happened to Harry would cause pain to Lily. She had a vested interest in Harry's well being.


:hmm: But that's what she did do. She begs Voldemort not to kill Harry but to kill her instead.

I don't think she did. In those last terrifying panic stricken moments of her life, I do not think Lily gave much, if any, thought about her death. Her one and only concern was Harry.


That's how the scene plays out to me, though. She offers herself instead of Harry, doesn't she?

From Lily's point of view, her death was a far better alternative to the death of her child.


The text shows Lily as being terrified. But her terror is above all about her baby son: she is prepared to put his life before her own. :cool:

Correct. What I'm trying to say that she is acting out of fear here.

Lily didn't have much of a chance to hide Harry (although I have wondered why she didn't disapparate with him as soon as she reached his room). After all, they were not expecting Voldemort to drop by. As for the begging, etc., I doubt it would have made any difference, but she did beg him not to kill Harry and to kill her instead.

I was describing what I might have done. I wasn't proposing it as what Lily should have done.


Speaking as a mother, it is not the fear of losing a child, but the fear of the child being harmed or killed, which is foremost in one's mind. You're not thinking what your life will be without them, you're thinking that they will have no life if you don't do something to save them.

As I mentioned above, I did not intend that phrase to be so specific. I agree that Lily would not have been actively thinking about life without Harry. I think in those last moments, fear for her child would have overwhelmed everything else.



It's not ludicrous, it's just not the first thing that comes to mind. The child being in danger is. The fact that they will be hurt or die, not that it will hurt you to lose them, is what drives a mother to protect her child.

I'm not sure here. I would think that the bond between a mother and child is so strong that the child getting hurt is equivalent to the mother getting hurt. I would be interested in a psychologist's take on what exactly happens here.


Sorry to nit-pick, but we're back again to the "fear of losing a child" phrase. IMO, in cases where mothers (and other people) put their lives on the line and may ultimately die, it is not because they're thinking "what am I going to do without you?" It is because they do not want the other person to experience harm or death and are willing to do that themselves to save their loved one.

I was talking about myself when I wrote the "what am I going to do without you?". I do not think anyone actively thinks that far in a pressure situation. It might be present in the back of your mind but you don't really have time to think. There is just that sense of terror, the awareness of something terrible if you don't save this person.


But, do you have to be consciously thinking of that fear for it to be a brave act? So many brave acts are a quick reaction to a situation rather than having to steel one's self to take action. Howerver, IMO, it doesn't lessen the act of bravery because it is a person's first instinct to protect someone they love.

No. I think it is harder to perform a brave act when you have to steel yourself to it but quick reactions are brave as well.


The point I was making when this discussion began was that Lily's was not anymore courageous than others who did the same thing. Her bravery, IMO, is not questionable. I was just saying that she shouldn't be held up as more courageous above the others who gave their lives during the war with Voldemort was.

IMO she was as brave as some of Voldemort's other victims like the german mother he murdered, Gregorovitch, Snape.



Is it mind-boggling to consider that perhaps there was more to it than just Lily not wanting to live without Harry? Lily wanted her child to have a chance to grow up. Not just for her sake, but for his. IMO, Lily viewed her child as a person in his own right and not simply an object for her happiness. Of course she didn't want him to be killed. I don't think this was selfish.

I've written above about how I don't think Lily was explicitly thinking about life without Harry. Anything that hurt Harry would hurt Lily. Selfish is the wrong word here. It has a negative meaning. Self preservation is probably better sounding.


So, it's only brave if she knew some good would come of it?

No, it would have been brave because she would not have been acting out of fear.


I think refusing to obey this monster that had most of the wizarding world quaking in their boots was attitude.

She wasn't refusing to obey Voldemort in order to defy him. She wasn't defying him at all in that scene.


I guess, in a nutshell this whole thing comes down to whether you believe someone is capable of a truly selfless act.

I'm talking about murder in general, in the series, and the murder or prospective murders of children in general in the series.

And what Voldemort wanted in general. There was plenty of people Voldemort wanted to murder. It wasn't just Harry. When Lily stood between him and her child, it was just Harry. But there were many, many others he wanted to murder. Is opposing that simply the stance of "anyone who isn't a monster"? And if so, what does that make of his supporters?
I am not talking about murder in general... and again, I confess myself slightly confused about why you are. The ethics of killing people should not have any bearing on Lily's desire to protect her child.

I think that opposing Voldemort is straightforward. I'm not suggesting otherwise. It's what anyone with a shred of decency does, IMO. And as Lily is criticised for rejecting what Snape was becoming and the bigotry he embraced, I do sometimes wonder if it's seen as a negative that Lily didn't see shades of grey to fanatical racist criminals.
I mean, I know exactly what you mean about criticisms of Lily, but I don't think that situation is as straightforward. In my mind Lily had an opportunity to influence Snape far more effectively than she did. Was she obligated to? That's an unanswerable question, I think. But what I believe is that it was in her power to have done so, and that it really wasn't "fanatical racism" or a single word that occasioned the split in the first place. I've posted many times about that before, so I hope you'll forgive me for not trying to repeat myself.

What I was actually wondering is, if there's nothing particularly good about opposing Voldemort, what does it say on the other hand about those who do support him? And is there nothing special or particularly good about anyone at all who opposes Voldemort? Because it's what anyone with a conscience would do?
It all really depends on how you define your terms. I don't think disagreeing with Voldemort's political aims is an especially courageous position. People in general are not eager to experience war, genocide, or peonage. So if that's what you mean by "opposing," then no, there's nothing special about that.

On the other hand, if you're speaking more about fighting Voldemort and actively subverting his goals, then yeah, the stakes are super high and it takes real courage. But I think the Potters were acting purely out of self-preservation. That's not a slam on their personalities, it's just an unavoidable consequence of the situation. They had no control over the specific occasion for Voldemort's visit, so all they could do was react to it.

As for what that says about Voldemort's followers, I think that's a topic for another thread. If you do want to continue to discuss it I'm game, just let me know what thread seems best to you.

Not then, no. But before Lily became pregnant, she and James did put their life on the line to fight Voldemort. They joined the Order, they thrice defied him. They were hoping to avoid that confrontation so that they could keep their child safe, not because they were unwilling to put their lives on the line.
I do wonder... isn't there an interview quote or something regarding the "thrice defied" thing? Because as I understood it, at least one of those defiances was refusing to join the Death Eaters to begin with, and then another was going into hiding when they found out he wanted to kill Harry. I'm not saying they didn't acquit themselves courageously at any point, or that they wouldn't have if it came to a fight, I'm only saying that most of the scenarios I think you're imagining are quite different from where they ended up that night.

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took
But that's what she did do. She begs Voldemort not to kill Harry but to kill her instead.

I don't think she did. In those last terrifying panic stricken moments of her life, I do not think Lily gave much, if any, thought about her death. Her one and only concern was Harry.


"Not Harry,not Harry, please not Harry!"
Stand aside you silly girl...stand aside now..."
Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead -"
(DH, Bathilda's Secret)

I agree. What Snape did to her was terrible and unjustifiable if he considered himself Lily's friend. But that doesn't mean Lily can't take the high road and give him the chance to explain himself once she's in a state of mind to hear him. She doesn't have to forgive him. She doesn't have to become his friend again. She doesn't have to go back to defending him. But I think it would have been a much better situation and offered both of them more closure on the relationship had they had the opportunity to hear each other out when tempers were not so hot.

What was there for Lily to hear out? Shoddy, half-baked excuses? If Lily had heard Snape out, I can imagine she would still be criticised for not swooning at his excuses. For not being ashamed of herself at being hurt and offended by her "friend's" racist abuse. Whatever Lily had done, apart from making excuses for and ending up with Snape, would have invoked criticism of her decisions, IMO.

We don't know what Lily thought or felt when she had cooled down. However, it seems she retained her belief that racist abuse and Dark Magic were wrong strongly enough not to try to rebuild a toxic friendship. I doubt she stayed bitter about Snape for the rest of her short life. I think, once she had cooled down, she came to accept that part of her life was over, that he had changed from the boy she once knew, that she couldn't be a part of what he was becoming. Those weren't just things said in anger, they were a central part of who Lily was - "You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine".

Thing is, though, for the five years prior to SWM Lily did turn a blind eye to Snape, or at least he occupied her blind spot. There were red flags that all of her other friends saw that made them wonder why she remained friends with him but she couldn't see them until he called her a mudblood.

And it was wrong and foolish of her to do so. I think she naively convinced herself that Snape wasn't like his friends. That he hadn't changed. I think she lied to herself for a long time about the way Snape was going. But I think it's a good thing that she opened her eyes to that. I think it's a good thing that she stopped doing that, before she went down the path of turning a blind eye to worse things.

Please reread my post. I don't suggest she should have justified Snape's behavior or have gone running back into his arms once he apologized, I said she could have heard him out and still made the decision to end the friendship.

From what I see, the suggestion that Lily should have listened to Snape's excuses generally leads to the suggestion that she should have accepted them.

Yes. And in her new state of mind she might have seen such excuses for just what they were: excuses. It would have been a huge moment of closure had she been able to talk to Snape with a cool head.

Closure for whom? We don't know whether Lily saw it as closure or not. And nothing but a relationship with Lily would have been closure for Snape.

I, at least, never got the impression that Snape got much closure from that relationship because of the intensity and passion in their last canon exchange.

It wasn't Lily's responsibility to give closure to someone who had just betrayed her. And I doubt Snape would have considered any kind of end to the friendship as closure. The only closure in Snape's mind would have been getting what he wanted, and that was not Lily's responsibility, nor was she obliged to do so, as you agreed with me on the previous page.

I am not talking about murder in general... and again, I confess myself slightly confused about why you are. The ethics of killing people should not have any bearing on Lily's desire to protect her child.

I'm talking about your assertion that Lily did what anyone other than a monster would do. I'm wondering if, in your opinion, it's only monstrous to allow/ be party to a murder if it's one's own child.

I mean, I know exactly what you mean about criticisms of Lily, but I don't think that situation is as straightforward. In my mind Lily had an opportunity to influence Snape far more effectively than she did. Was she obligated to? That's an unanswerable question, I think. But what I believe is that it was in her power to have done so, and that it really wasn't "fanatical racism" or a single word that occasioned the split in the first place. I've posted many times about that before, so I hope you'll forgive me for not trying to repeat myself.

Lily had tried to influence Snape. He wasn't interested in her opinions. It wasn't in her power to change Snape. Snape didn't want her help. She couldn't help him, because he refused to acknowledge that Dark Magic, oppression and racism were problems.

The cracks were appearing before Snape threw racial abuse at Lily, but it was that instance of bigotry that irreparably damaged the friendship. I wonder in what sense Lily could be considered to be "obligated" to play the martyr, to let herself be treated badly and without a shred of respect in the hope that someday banging her head against a brick wall might have some impact?

I do wonder... isn't there an interview quote or something regarding the "thrice defied" thing? Because as I understood it, at least one of those defiances was refusing to join the Death Eaters to begin with, and then another was going into hiding when they found out he wanted to kill Harry. I'm not saying they didn't acquit themselves courageously at any point, or that they wouldn't have if it came to a fight, I'm only saying that most of the scenarios I think you're imagining are quite different from where they ended up that night.

There was an interview quote that one of the defiances was refusing to join him. I don't recall anything about one of them being going into hiding. And in any case, saying no to Voldemort takes guts. Especially if he or some of his thugs were there at the time. And they probably were, I doubt he just sent an owl with an RSVP to the Potters.

I'm talking about your assertion that Lily did what anyone other than a monster would do. I'm wondering if, in your opinion, it's only monstrous to allow/ be party to a murder if it's one's own child.
More precisely, I said that she, as a non-monster, did what all non-monsters would do, which was try to prevent her son from being killed. I fail to see how assigning hypothetical qualities and supposing fictional actions for unnamed characters who aren't Lily furthers the understanding of Lily's sacrificial act. :)

(Moreover, I had thought it would be clear that my phrase "everyone who isn't a monster" was litotes emphasizing that Lily is indeed a paragon of the "lawful good" category. It really has nothing to do with any other characters or situations but the one I explicitly mentioned.)

From what I see, the suggestion that Lily should have listened to Snape's excuses generally leads to the suggestion that she should have accepted them.

I've posted twice now specifically saying that just because she would hear him out does not mean she would automatically have gone running back to him to repair a toxic relationship and I'm really frustrated that it appears that you're not understanding this.

I was not and am not suggesting what you say here and I never have. I'll continue to discuss Lily in this thread but I'm not going to keep going around in circles about whether Lily would have, should have or could have gone back to Snape in this situation since I've written out my opinion three separate times now.

What was there for Lily to hear out? Shoddy, half-baked excuses? If Lily had heard Snape out, I can imagine she would still be criticised for not swooning at his excuses.

Regardless of whether or not she would have accepted his explanation and chosen to keep the friendship, i believe she should have heard him out. A kind and compassionate person would have needed that for themselves, to know they really did make the best decision before ending a relationship, I think. The biggest character flaw she has, IMHO, is of not listening with an open mind. She even already had her mind made up about the werewolf incident, and didn't even give Snape a chance to explain what happened.

I think Lily had been listening to Severus make excuses and sidestep the issues for ages, and at the point he comes to her after calling her "Mudblood" and starts more excuse making, she has no interest in the equivalent of "Sorry if my bigotry offended you". She says "You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine." I think for Lily at this point no amount of empty words were going to sway her, and she didn't have to hear beyond his opening "apology" to know how empty it was. Perhaps actual change may have swayed her, but that is not what her former friend was offering when he came to her door, nor is it what he did-- and Lily indicates through her words that she doesn't see that he is offering change or changing. By her words, she percieves him as wanting the opposite of what is good for her and the Wizarding World. Lily indicated to Severus that she had picked a path that opposes Voldemort, bigotry, and the Dark Arts; I think she is determined at that point to persue what she finds morally important to do. She has chosen her path, and Severus had chosen a different one that was in opposition to it. I don't see any reconciliation as possible as long as Lily saw Severus as trying to destroy that which was important to her.

I'm not sure why Lily should have had an obligation to hear out words with no change behind them. I think "Mudblood" was the final straw, and the empty apology the nails for that camel's coffin.

I think being called "Mudblood" by someone who she had had a friendship for so long was a watershed event for Lily, one that galvanized her resolve to do something about Voldemort and the Death Eaters and the bigotry that poisoned the Wizarding World.

"Not Harry,not Harry, please not Harry!"
Stand aside you silly girl...stand aside now..."
Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead -"
(DH, Bathilda's Secret)

I meant that she didn't dwell or think too much about the fact that she would be dying and the consequences of it.

Regardless of whether or not she would have accepted his explanation and chosen to keep the friendship, i believe she should have heard him out. A kind and compassionate person would have needed that for themselves, to know they really did make the best decision before ending a relationship, I think. The biggest character flaw she has, IMHO, is of not listening with an open mind. She even already had her mind made up about the werewolf incident, and didn't even give Snape a chance to explain what happened.

I think at that point she was already fed up with him after trying to hold on to him for too long. Some use this as evidence that she didn't really care for him or that she "used" him, but I don't see it as either nor as a bad thing. From what I read from the text in TPT and following Snape's story arc, I think she really did care for him even though he was getting closer and closer in supporting bad people and the dark arts. It's a lot to take to be around someone who does things that are against your own principles. I know it can be argued that she could have been a little nicer and/or handled it differently. But I think at that point, she had already done a lot of listening and giving second chances. I think it would be asking too much of a person to tolerate any more than they have.

I admit I'm biased, but I've learned that if someone is dealing with a sickness or condition, it's none of my business unless they choose to talk to me about it. Snape was trying to convince Lily that something strange was up with Lupin. What if Lily just didn't want to talk about it because it was none of their business? Or what if Lily didn't want either of them to speculate on Lupin being a werewolf because it would cause him more trouble? It's already been established that werewolves are discriminated against, and the school finding out would cause an uproar to other students and their families. Personally, I think wanting to stay out of someone's business is a mature thing to do, especially when you're dealing with a friend who's quite nosy.

My own perception of Lily is that she is a girl who wants to see action, not words. In SWM, she tells both James and Snape that she wants nothing further to do with them because of their behaviour, not just on this occasion, but to the student body generally. I see no evidence that she was any more willing to listen to explanations, apologies and excuses from James than she was from Snape.

Much as I personally prefer Snape's character to James's, it seems clear to me that James changed his behaviour (at least to an extent) after Lily's criticism and that is why she was willing to have a friendship with him. Snape did not.

Her words in the corridor after SWM suggest that she doesn't want Snape to apologise for calling her a rude name, she wants him to stop calling anybody that rude name. That, for me, is the key issue. I do not see her harsh words to him in the corridor outside the common room as irreparably severing their friendship. I feel that she would have been open to continuing her friendship with him if his actions showed he understood that this wasn't just about what he called her, but about what he calls other Muggleborns, and was prepared to take it on board. Much as I love Snape and can see how there may have been mitigating issues underlying his behaviour, I can't blame her for wanting Snape to be nicer to her Muggleborn peers and for refusing to listen to apologies and explanations until she'd seen evidence of this. That seems to me to be extraordinarily selfless, not judgemental.

That seems to me to be extraordinarily selfless, not judgemental.
I like your points and I don't really disagree with you in general--yes, Lily would have wanted evidence that Snape had rejected Death Eaterism, not just an apology--but I still don't really think Lily's specific language throughout her conversations with Snape makes it possible for me to agree that she was being wholly selfless. And I don't know why we need to think she was.

That is, this is another case where I'd conclude Lily is utterly without any agency of her own if she is simply being altruistic as we all expect her to be and the plot requires her to be. But in contrast to the confrontation with Voldemort, Lily here has chances on the page to speak and interact, to express (or betray) her motives, and to come to an informed decision. My question is, why can't she be judgmental and selfish, and why can't it just be the best decision for her?

After all, if we believe Lily was in some way promoting the greater good by urging Snape to show more respect to Muggleborns, she strangely proceeds to abandoned that goal. She would not have done so lightly, I know, but the only real consequence of her decision (no longer interacting with Snape) could not have appreciably aided Muggleborns in any way. If that was her motive, what did she expect to gain? Her words gave Snape no chance of recourse, and we know for a fact that he never sought or achieved any. Wasn't she just looking out for herself as any rational person would?

“You're....you're a witch,” whispered Snape.
She looked affronted.
“That's not a very nice thing to say to somebody!”
She turned, nose in the air, and marched off toward her sister.

This, to me, is Lily. I don't see her as someone who tried and tried to get her friend to stop being friends with people who she saw as budding DEs. I see her more as someone who stated her opinion, but seldom took the time to listen. I don't see her shutting the door of the common room as a final act of frustration - I see it as part of her character. And I believe, as a friend, she should have heard what he had to say, and then shut the door if she felt that was the appropriate choice.

I'm not saying she was wrong - in her shoes, i would not have approved of Snape's friends, either, and perhaps she was too young to know how to do anything other than to walk away. But I still think she should have listened first.

My opinion.

Lily was put on the spot. She had been insulted, called the equivalent of a racial epithet in our world. Like her son after her, she was, I like to think, a bit impulsive: adept at quickly assessing others, but the flip side of that is that she was quick to judge, too. The time that passed between the insult and the corridor outside the common room was not time for her to calm down; it was time for resentment to build.

That being said, we can, in the calm of our position as readers of a piece of fiction, debate the rightness or wrongness of how she reacted, but how many of us, put in the same position as Lily, would have been able to react with a cool head? I'm not sure there is even a "should" here, other than how we ourselves would like to think we would react, if we had time to consider.

I meant that she didn't dwell or think too much about the fact that she would be dying and the consequences of it.

I think the point is that she knew fully well what she was doing, otherwise it wouldn't have been a "choice." The magic only protected Harry because she knew what she was doing and stood her ground. She didn't know what the consequences would be, true, but she had to know Voldemort was going to kill her. James was dead, and she said "Kill me instead." I think the thoughts and actions are bound together in what happened. In the books, magic is often created by thoughts, in my opinion. I think she had made a decision about what to do before Voldemort ever entered the room, although she couldn't have dreamed it would give Harry such strong magical protection or that it would vanquish the Dark Lord. JMO

I think the point is that she knew fully well what she was doing, otherwise it wouldn't have been a "choice." The magic only protected Harry because she knew what she was doing and stood her ground. She didn't know what the consequences would be, true, but she had to know Voldemort was going to kill her. James was dead, and she said "Kill me instead." I think the thoughts and actions are bound together in what happened. In the books, magic is often created by thoughts, in my opinion. I think she had made a decision about what to do before Voldemort ever entered the room, although she couldn't have dreamed it would give Harry such strong magical protection or that it would vanquish the Dark Lord. JMO

And I don't think she anticipated that Voldemort would offer to spare her life; so while I agree that she already knew that she would stand in Voldy's way to protect Harry, I think the specific conscious decision to give up her life came when he offered to spare her, that she step aside. It is after Voldy's offer that Lily asks him to kill her instead of Harry.

Her words in the corridor after SWM suggest that she doesn't want Snape to apologise for calling her a rude name, she wants him to stop calling anybody that rude name. That, for me, is the key issue. I do not see her harsh words to him in the corridor outside the common room as irreparably severing their friendship. I feel that she would have been open to continuing her friendship with him if his actions showed he understood that this wasn't just about what he called her, but about what he calls other Muggleborns, and was prepared to take it on board. Much as I love Snape and can see how there may have been mitigating issues underlying his behaviour, I can't blame her for wanting Snape to be nicer to her Muggleborn peers and for refusing to listen to apologies and explanations until she'd seen evidence of this. That seems to me to be extraordinarily selfless, not judgemental.
Very nicely stated. I agree. I think what we're seeing here is Lily's attempt, as Severus's friend, to try to get him to really look at the choices he's making and understand the consequences for him, others, and their friendship. But I don't see it as "closing a door" on their relationship; if that had been the case, she would not have gone out to talk with him in the first place.

Very nicely stated. I agree. I think what we're seeing here is Lily's attempt, as Severus's friend, to try to get him to really look at the choices he's making and understand the consequences for him, others, and their friendship. But I don't see it as "closing a door" on their relationship; if that had been the case, she would not have gone out to talk with him in the first place.
Lily definitely attempted to do this at least once before, that's true. But I think the actual content of the conversation suggests she is not attempting to persuade or enlighten Snape at all. There are two comments in particular that don't seem to fit if the conversation is anything other than a formal ending for reasons personal to Lily and her place in the society of the school:

"It’s too late. I’ve made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you."

So, she first suggests that nothing Snape says will avail him in changing her mind. Fair enough. She also says she's made excuses for him, to other people. And she mentions that the question of her friendship with Snape has come up among other people. I think she focuses, at least for a moment, on the social pressures acting upon her rather than any moral imperatives guiding her.

"I can’t pretend anymore. You’ve chosen your way, I’ve chosen mine."

I think this line speaks for itself: She had been, up until that moment (by that I mean "mudblood") been willing to overlook something, either because she doubted the veracity of what she suspected, or because she was convinced she could do something to change his mind. The next sentence literally reflects a parting of ways, an end to an association, the dissolution of the friendship. I'm not sure how else to read it.


Right now I'm not trying to make any comments about why Lily did this, whether she should have, or what she could have done differently. But I can't reckon any way of reading this scene but that the ball was in her court, and rather than hit it back, she decided to pack up her gear and leave. She had ample personal reasons for doing so that don't require us to suppose that she was making a moral stand or trying to encourage Snape to reconsider his position. And since there are as many indications that it was personal as there are that it was anything else, I'd prefer to err on the side of what makes Lily a rounder character.

Right now I'm not trying to make any comments about why Lily did this, whether she should have, or what she could have done differently. But I can't reckon any way of reading this scene but that the ball was in her court, and rather than hit it back, she decided to pack up her gear and leave.
I disagree with this view. As Snape had been the one to push Lily aside (don't need any help from a muggleborn), I'd say the ball was in Snape's court. And in my view, camping outside the Gryffindor entrance isn't a move to try to reconcile; it's more desperation on Snape's part, recognizing that he may lose something he values. Not a reflection on what he said, what he's doing, what he can do to try to salvage their relationship -- just an attempt to get Lily to compromise by pretending to not notice his move toward life as a DE. Lily's words are an explanation and a plea to Severus about the choices he's making. It may seem final, but I think Lily is telling Severus that she can't go with him down that path and why; she seems to be trying to find the boy she has been friends with for a very long time. In the end, I think it's Snape who "packs up his gear and leaves".

I disagree with this view. As Snape had been the one to push Lily aside (don't need any help from a muggleborn), I'd say the ball was in Snape's court. And in my view, camping outside the Gryffindor entrance isn't a move to try to reconcile; it's more desperation on Snape's part, recognizing that he may lose something he values. Not a reflection on what he said, what he's doing, what he can do to try to salvage their relationship -- just an attempt to get Lily to compromise by pretending to not notice his move toward life as a DE. Lily's words are an explanation and a plea to Severus about the choices he's making. It may seem final, but I think Lily is telling Severus that she can't go with him down that path and why; she seems to be trying to find the boy she has been friends with for a very long time. In the end, I think it's Snape who "packs up his gear and leaves".
I'm just not sure that's a tenable position based on the tone and conversational dynamics that occur. I fully understand the desire to avoid foisting responsibility for what happened on Lily (i.e. blaming her for Snape's behavior, which I think is occasionally appropriate, just not in this scene), but I'm not sure that really does her credit anyway. It may be more satisfying to decide that she was reacting to Snape's inappropriate behavior and she just let her moral compass guide her away from him, but I don't think it's either realistic or, frankly, good writing. I think she must take responsibility for ending the relationship based on her own feelings and her real personal context, or else she's just... what? an abstraction designed to frustrate Snape by being cosmically beyond his reach.

I don't always succeed, but more and more, when I look at the interactions between Severus and Lily, I try to put myself in the place of these characters, neither of whom know what will happen in the future. It's difficult, trying to ascertain what, exactly, these characters know versus what I as a reader know.

Eventually, Severus will join the DEs, but will also change sides and spend years as a spy, ultimately developing a moral compass. Lily appears to suspect Severus of wanting to join the DEs, but doesn't appear to have proof. The other fact, short of divination, she can't have known.
Eventually, Lily will die young, with Severus partially responsible for at least her being targeted, the guilt for which will stay with him all this life. But as of this conversation, she isn't yet his raison d'etre, but merely a girl for whom he has a strong affection.

The point I'm making is, these are two school children whose dissimilar backgrounds and associations have caused them to develop conflicting ideologies and social circles. They don't yet know how significant they will be in the war. IMHO, they're just two people, trying hard to stay together in whatever way they know (given their limited knowledge) until one simply feels this isn't what she wants for herself to put up with any longer.

That said, I think this scene is the moment where Lily realizes that, if she has been trying to be helpful and altruistic in the past, there is nothing more she can do and she is tired of trying. To her the old Severus is dead, and she realized she can't resuscitate him. We know that later on he'll come back better than he was before...better...stronger....faster :yuhup: ...but she doesn't know there's still a sliver of him left, and he doesn't know (yet) why his apologies to her aren't enough. I don't see this as though Lily lacks foresight and compassion to forgive the man who will later become spy for the Order, or Severus is just coldly and calculatingly lying to her all along the way like the DE he became years later. I see one person who, after a relatively lonely (and implicitly turbulent) childhood, desperately tries to maintain all his friendships despite an incompatibility that he does not (for whatever reason) perceive, and another who was raised with socially acceptable values and a healthy amount of interpersonal knowledge who refuses continue a friendship that is making her uncomfortable, disrupting her other relationships, and sapping her energy.

And in my view, camping outside the Gryffindor entrance isn't a move to try to reconcile; it's more desperation on Snape's part, recognizing that he may lose something he values

I don't see these two as mutually exclusive. In fact, they strike me as being the same thing, seen through different lenses. :hmm: What he values is Lily's companionship, and reconciling will allow him to continue to be her friend. I think he wants very badly for them to be on good terms once again because he enjoys their friendship and does not want to lose it.

I think it's often forgotten that Lily and James were 21 when they were murdered. At 21 or younger, do we always make the best decisions?

It's unfair to place James, Sirius, Lily or the trio on a pedestal and judge them for the mistakes they made in their youth. Dumbledore fell for the worst kind of ideals when he was young. Which as we all know lead to the death of his sister and a lifetime estrangement with the only member of his family left. Harry forgave him however, he forgave him because he understood that in the end we're all vulnerable to great mistakes. Remorse and regret were a powerful force in changing a person and Harry understood that in the end,.

Perhaps it's best if we for a minute consider stepping into Lily's shoes, she is friends with a boy who is part of a group that bullies girls like Lily by calling her slurs and bullying other Muggleborns and Halfbloods. She didn't want to see Severus as such, but his continued dogging of the issue by forcing it to be focused instead on the Marauders didn't solve the problem. I think it's important to remember that Snape only offered a small quantity of memories to help Harry understand the truth. It would seem to me that this was a long standing issue, it didn't simply happen over night.

Severus at the end of the day chose the Death Eater 'friends' over Lily. Besides, once again I think it must be made clear that Lily, Severus and the Marauders were fifteen-sixteen at the time. How many friendships has one ended over more trivial things? I can't exactly see anyone sticking with a friend who for example was part of a racist gang and than after you came to their help they called you a racist etipath. Let alone for the trivial things that make up high school life, like she-said/he-said. Even if we have a certain level of tolerance to our friends stupidity, everyone has a breaking point. Lily reached it that summer day after the O.W.L exams.

I don't think all of this great contempt and disdain thrown at Lily for having ended her relationship with Severus, is warranted. It's like the whole cast the first stone if you're without sin idea.

I don't think all of this great contempt and disdain thrown at Lily for having ended her relationship with Severus, is warranted. It's like the whole cast the first stone if you're without sin idea.
What contempt, though? It's one thing to assign Lily blame for everything that went wrong in Snape's life (which I've never actually seen done, although it's alluded to often :lol:), but some recent posts seem to imply that even giving Lily credit for ending the relationship is somehow denigrating to her character. Do you also believe that is the case?

I mean, plainly I don't agree with that, because I think there's already so little in the text for Lily to actually do of her own accord that making her a passive victim in this case robs her of one of her best moments--telling Snape to get lost because she wants to, not because she's morally obligated to, nor because she's destined to be with James, nor because she's taking a political position. She has the power to choose and she does so, be the consequences what they may. I prefer that reading to any, if we're going to think of Lily as a real character.

More precisely, I said that she, as a non-monster, did what all non-monsters would do, which was try to prevent her son from being killed. I fail to see how assigning hypothetical qualities and supposing fictional actions for unnamed characters who aren't Lily furthers the understanding of Lily's sacrificial act. :)

As I see it, this reduces Lily's act to "no big deal" because it's something most parents would do. In comparison to the praise heaped on other characters for lesser things, I find it puzzling.

I've posted twice now specifically saying that just because she would hear him out does not mean she would automatically have gone running back to him to repair a toxic relationship and I'm really frustrated that it appears that you're not understanding this.


I can see that you're not suggesting that Lily should have gone back to Snape. However, from what I've seen, that is generally the direction the idea that she should have listened to him takes.

Regardless of whether or not she would have accepted his explanation and chosen to keep the friendship, i believe she should have heard him out. A kind and compassionate person would have needed that for themselves, to know they really did make the best decision before ending a relationship, I think.

Kind and compassionate do not equal doormat. What was there for Lily to hear, apart from excuses. "Filthy little mudblood" says it all. There was no justification for it and Lily was under no obligation to listen to someone who was not at all behaving like a friend. "Filthy little mudblood" was enough to show Lily that ending the friendship was the right decision. She dropped the blinkers then, and looked without making excuses at Snape's bigotry, his attachment to Dark Magic, and his friendships with people who wanted muggleborns dead. What could Snape possibly say to her to make that okay? Short of a genuine change in Snape's behaviour, there was no reason for Lily to stay in a toxic friendship, so there was no reason to listen to the kind of excuses he had - "I didn't mean -", that's not an apology, it's an excuse.

The biggest character flaw she has, IMHO, is of not listening with an open mind.

It seems to me that when she went to Hogwarts, she was open to hearing views of the wizarding world other than those of Snape. Clear from her ability to think for herself and disapprove of the dark path he was taking.

I think "Mudblood" was the final straw, and the empty apology the nails for that camel's coffin.

:lol:

I think being called "Mudblood" by someone who she had had a friendship for so long was a watershed event for Lily, one that galvanized her resolve to do something about Voldemort and the Death Eaters and the bigotry that poisoned the Wizarding World.

Perhaps - it showed her how their world was going, it showed her how easily even people she had trusted could become corrupted and follow that dark path.


I admit I'm biased, but I've learned that if someone is dealing with a sickness or condition, it's none of my business unless they choose to talk to me about it. Snape was trying to convince Lily that something strange was up with Lupin. What if Lily just didn't want to talk about it because it was none of their business? Or what if Lily didn't want either of them to speculate on Lupin being a werewolf because it would cause him more trouble?

I agree. Lily may have felt that it was none of her business. And, as she wouldn't have grown up with the wizarding world's prejudices against werewolves, I think she wouldn't have wanted to see someone suffering because of something that was out of their control. And that another student's health was simply none of her business.

My own perception of Lily is that she is a girl who wants to see action, not words.

I agree with that. I think Lily would have reconsidered her friendship with Snape, and something might have been salvaged, if he'd made an effort to move away from people like Mulciber and Avery, to move away from Dark Magic, to move past the bigotry he was embracing.

I like your points and I don't really disagree with you in general--yes, Lily would have wanted evidence that Snape had rejected Death Eaterism, not just an apology--but I still don't really think Lily's specific language throughout her conversations with Snape makes it possible for me to agree that she was being wholly selfless. And I don't know why we need to think she was.

I don't think she was being selfless. But nor do I think she was being selfish. I think she was getting out of an unhealthy friendship, with someone who didn't respect her. I don't think that's selfless, but nor do I consider it selfish. And I would also say that Lily had moral concerns - she couldn't condone what Snape was becoming. I don't see why it has to be one or the other. Most people who objected to Voldemort and the DEs had both personal and moral reasons for doing so.

That is, this is another case where I'd conclude Lily is utterly without any agency of her own if she is simply being altruistic as we all expect her to be and the plot requires her to be. But in contrast to the confrontation with Voldemort, Lily here has chances on the page to speak and interact, to express (or betray) her motives, and to come to an informed decision. My question is, why can't she be judgmental and selfish, and why can't it just be the best decision for her?

But in this case, the best decision for her was also the best decision morally.
Why should Lily be without agency simply because she has a conscience that tells her the DEs are evil?

After all, if we believe Lily was in some way promoting the greater good by urging Snape to show more respect to Muggleborns, she strangely proceeds to abandoned that goal.

I don't think Lily was promoting the greater good in relation to Muggleborns while she was friends with Snape. I don't think anyone has suggested that. I do think she was trying to advise a friend against going down a path of extreme criminality. Ending that friendship had nothing to do with abandonment, as it wasn't Lily's responsibility to convince Snape that Muggleborns deserved to have their lives and their magic. She didn't abandon Snape. She got out of a friendship that was toxic and potentially harmful.

Her words gave Snape no chance of recourse, and we know for a fact that he never sought or achieved any. Wasn't she just looking out for herself as any rational person would?

We don't know for a fact that Snape never approached Lily again. They lived in the same town during the holidays, they spent two years after that at Hogwarts, probably in some of the same classes. There's no way to say for certain that he never approached her again over those two years.

[QUOTE=MerryLore;5983277]This, to me, is Lily. I don't see her as someone who tried and tried to get her friend to stop being friends with people who she saw as budding DEs.

Well, in the example you gave above, it's easy to see why Lily wasn't impressed. Calling someone a witch can be a milder way of saying what Molly called Bellatrix in the battle of Hogwarts.

And in the memories shown, Lily tried to convince Snape that his friends were a bad influence, that dark magic was not a laugh. He didn't care about her concerns, he changed the subject.

I see her more as someone who stated her opinion, but seldom took the time to listen. I don't see her shutting the door of the common room as a final act of frustration - I see it as part of her character. And I believe, as a friend, she should have heard what he had to say, and then shut the door if she felt that was the appropriate choice.

Even then, if she had listened to Snape's excuses for bigotry before shutting the door, I believe she would have come in for every bit as much criticism for daring to go against what Snape wanted.



So, she first suggests that nothing Snape says will avail him in changing her mind. Fair enough. She also says she's made excuses for him, to other people. And she mentions that the question of her friendship with Snape has come up among other people. I think she focuses, at least for a moment, on the social pressures acting upon her rather than any moral imperatives guiding her.

I don't think it's to do with social pressures. Let's look at why Lily didn't want Snape hanging out with thugs like Mulciber and Avery - because they were bigots, wannabe DEs and a bad influence.
IMO, that is exactly why Lily's friends were concerned about her being friends with Snape - they saw him as a bigot, a wannabe DE and a bad influence.

Even the wording - Lily says in one of the memories that she doesn't know what Snape sees in Mulciber, that she finds him creepy. It's entirely possible, that Lily's friends, looking at her blind spot where Snape is concerned, wonder the very same thing that Lily wondered about Snape's friendship with Mulciber.

Turning into some social standing thing cheapens everything into some cliche-filled high-school movie. It ignores the context of the war that was going on and turns the racism and dark magic Snape was embracing into a minor issue that shouldn't have bothered anyone.



I disagree with this view. As Snape had been the one to push Lily aside (don't need any help from a muggleborn), I'd say the ball was in Snape's court.

I agree. What was Lily to do after that? Beg and plead with Snape to accept her help? To overlook her perceived "inferiority"? Snape told Lily he didn't want help from a "filthy little mudblood", and Lily wasn't going to debase herself by begging for his approval for her existence. It was up to Snape to set things right after that, as he was the one who had figuratively knifed Lily in the back.

I'm just not sure that's a tenable position based on the tone and conversational dynamics that occur. I fully understand the desire to avoid foisting responsibility for what happened on Lily (i.e. blaming her for Snape's behavior, which I think is occasionally appropriate, just not in this scene),

I'm wondering when you're suggesting it is appropriate to blame Lily for Snape's behaviour? Unless she had him under the Imperius Curse at some point, Snape was responsible for his own actions.

It may be more satisfying to decide that she was reacting to Snape's inappropriate behavior and she just let her moral compass guide her away from him, but I don't think it's either realistic or, frankly, good writing. I think she must take responsibility for ending the relationship based on her own feelings and her real personal context,

And her own feelings were that she would not let herself be racially abused by her so-called friend. Her feelings were that she could not be part of a DE's life. I don't think that personal feelings and moral issues need to be mutually exclusive. Lily ended the friendship because she had a "friend" who didn't respect her, who had racially abused her and I think she had finally come to her senses about what she had been turning a blind eye to and lying to herself about.

or else she's just... what? an abstraction designed to frustrate Snape by being cosmically beyond his reach

Maybe a person instead of an object intended for Snape's happiness? Lily was a person, not something for Snape to obtain. She doesn't exist in terms of whether Snape can "reach" her or not. She wasn't some prize for him to obtain.
Lily's refusal to be a part of Snape's criminal path doesn't mean she was just some abstraction. No person is obliged to return the feelings of another.

.
Eventually, Severus will join the DEs, but will also change sides and spend years as a spy, ultimately developing a moral compass. Lily appears to suspect Severus of wanting to join the DEs, but doesn't appear to have proof. The other fact, short of divination, she can't have known.

Lily had seen enough of Snape's behaviour and attitudes to suspect the path he was taking. Especially considering the war was going on at the time. Snape was embracing the DE racist beliefs and their methods. Was Lily, like Slughorn many years before, to imagine that it was all harmless research? Or that there was a harmless innocent reason to throw racist abuse?

I agree there was no way she could have known he would change sides.

I don't see these two as mutually exclusive. In fact, they strike me as being the same thing, seen through different lenses. :hmm: What he values is Lily's companionship, and reconciling will allow him to continue to be her friend. I think he wants very badly for them to be on good terms once again because he enjoys their friendship and does not want to lose it.

Except that he wasn't being her friend. A friend doesn't hang out with people who want you murdered or oppressed. A friend doesn't embrace the kind of bigoted tripe that says that you are inherently inferior to them. Whatever Snape's reasons, or depth of belief in the blood prejudice, he was not being any kind of a friend to Lily by buying into and/or using them to his own ends.

It's unfair to place James, Sirius, Lily or the trio on a pedestal and judge them for the mistakes they made in their youth.

I agree. It sometimes seems as if forgiveness is only for those with the Dark Mark on their arms.

I can't exactly see anyone sticking with a friend who for example was part of a racist gang and than after you came to their help they called you a racist etipath.

I agree. It would be unhealthy to do so. It would be letting oneself in the firing line for future losses of control. It would be letting the aggressor think that anything they do will be fine once they come back with a half-baked apoloogy.

What contempt, though? It's one thing to assign Lily blame for everything that went wrong in Snape's life (which I've never actually seen done, although it's alluded to often :lol:), but some recent posts seem to imply that even giving Lily credit for ending the relationship is somehow denigrating to her character. Do you also believe that is the case?

I don't think that giving Lily credit for ending the friendship is denigrating to her character. Villifying her for ending the friendship, on the other hand, is a different matter. And there is criticism of Lily for having the temerity to end a friendship with a boy who racially abused her. Which is confusing.

I mean, plainly I don't agree with that, because I think there's already so little in the text for Lily to actually do of her own accord that making her a passive victim in this case robs her of one of her best moments--telling Snape to get lost because she wants to, not because she's morally obligated to, nor because she's destined to be with James, nor because she's taking a political position.

I don't believe that Lily making a decision based on the way Snape treated her was in any way her being a passive victim. She was a victim of racist abuse from Snape - but she certainly wasn't going to be passive about it, she certainly wasn't going to have a so-called friend who treated her like that. I think that's a good thing. Lily couldn't control how others treated her, but she could control how she reacted to it, and who she allowed in her life.


She has the power to choose and she does so, be the consequences what they may. I prefer that reading to any, if we're going to think of Lily as a real character.

I agree. I don't think anyone is saying that Lily didn't choose.

The incident in Snape's worst memory just solidified her belief that Snape believed in what the group he hung out with did. He may have attempted to dissuade Lily before, she was obviously willing to overlook the group's supremacist views, simply believing that Snape was different; however the angry outburst like daggers tore her up. She could no longer justify believing that Snape had just fallen in with the wrong crowd. He was one of them. He believed in what they believed.

I understand how you arrived at your conclusion, but that fact that Snape's nickname for himself was "The Half-Blood Prince" still leads me to think he never really believed in blood supremacy.

I like your points and I don't really disagree with you in general--yes, Lily would have wanted evidence that Snape had rejected Death Eaterism, not just an apology--but I still don't really think Lily's specific language throughout her conversations with Snape makes it possible for me to agree that she was being wholly selfless. And I don't know why we need to think she was. Why does it matter if she's being wholly selfless or not? Most of our actions aren't wholly selfless, but that doesn't mean we don't have good intentions.

Oops I got way behind. :err:

I don't always succeed, but more and more, when I look at the interactions between Severus and Lily, I try to put myself in the place of these characters, neither of whom know what will happen in the future. It's difficult, trying to ascertain what, exactly, these characters know versus what I as a reader know.

Eventually, Severus will join the DEs, but will also change sides and spend years as a spy, ultimately developing a moral compass. Lily appears to suspect Severus of wanting to join the DEs, but doesn't appear to have proof. The other fact, short of divination, she can't have known.
Eventually, Lily will die young, with Severus partially responsible for at least her being targeted, the guilt for which will stay with him all this life. But as of this conversation, she isn't yet his raison d'etre, but merely a girl for whom he has a strong affection.

The point I'm making is, these are two school children whose dissimilar backgrounds and associations have caused them to develop conflicting ideologies and social circles. They don't yet know how significant they will be in the war. IMHO, they're just two people, trying hard to stay together in whatever way they know (given their limited knowledge) until one simply feels this isn't what she wants for herself to put up with any longer.

I think it's good that you point out the diverse backgrounds that the two are operating from. I think that gets overlooked a good deal of the time. And, while each had a lot of influence over the other, they were not the only influences. Home life and Housemates had huge impacts on both Lily and Severus. So, they weren't operating in a vacuum that only the two of them inhabited.

Also, they were both young and suffering from one of the great shortcomings of their ages: each of them thought they knew best.

No, neither could see the future, and, IMO, each was a bit naive and each was a bit set in their ways and not too willing to give in.

I, personally, feel that Severus felt a bit more invested in the friendship because Lily was his oldest and "best" friend. And, at 15-16, he was possibly feeling the beginning stirrings of love, but may not have realized it, more than likely never having seen much of that at home. More of that would have to go to his thread.

That said, I think this scene is the moment where Lily realizes that, if she has been trying to be helpful and altruistic in the past, there is nothing more she can do and she is tired of trying. To her the old Severus is dead, and she realized she can't resuscitate him. We know that later on he'll come back better than he was before...better...stronger....faster :yuhup: ...but she doesn't know there's still a sliver of him left, and he doesn't know (yet) why his apologies to her aren't enough. I don't see this as though Lily lacks foresight and compassion to forgive the man who will later become spy for the Order, or Severus is just coldly and calculatingly lying to her all along the way like the DE he became years later. I see one person who, after a relatively lonely (and implicitly turbulent) childhood, desperately tries to maintain all his friendships despite an incompatibility that he does not (for whatever reason) perceive, and another who was raised with socially acceptable values and a healthy amount of interpersonal knowledge who refuses continue a friendship that is making her uncomfortable, disrupting her other relationships, and sapping her energy.

I think Lily felt that she'd suffered a lot because of her friendship with Severus, but she never seemed to give much thought to what was going on with him, being a Slytherin with a Muggleborn best friend. I'm sure that he took a lot of ribbing and possibly not-so-kind flack from his own Housemates. If Lily's other friends were giving her grief over her friendship with Severus, it isn't a big stretch to think he was getting the same amount over her.

But, he never mentions this and doesn't seem to consider it a drawback. And, as you pointed out, he doesn't seem to understand why they can't all just go on they way the are. He doesn't see his friendships with either as excluding the other.

I've never been able to decide though, was it Severus' not seeing Lily as a Muggleborn, or was it his lack of being steeped in the DE ideology (or a bit of both) that made him think that? Something made him think they could all "just get along."


Originally Posted by HedwigOwl
And in my view, camping outside the Gryffindor entrance isn't a move to try to reconcile; it's more desperation on Snape's part, recognizing that he may lose something he values


I don't see these two as mutually exclusive. In fact, they strike me as being the same thing, seen through different lenses. What he values is Lily's companionship, and reconciling will allow him to continue to be her friend. I think he wants very badly for them to be on good terms once again because he enjoys their friendship and does not want to lose it.


Yes, I believe Severus was desperate, for two reasons: he'd said something that had deeply hurt someone he loved; he did not want to lose Lily's friendship.

I think he enjoyed Lily companionship, but, as we see in SWM, he was not constantly in her company. So, he wasn't only concerned about just having her around. I think he valued her friendship the same way any of us value friendships: they are a confirmation that we are worthy of someone's affection.

The loss of a good friend -- especially a "best" friend, whether through the break up of that friendship or through other causes (such as moving away or death) is a traumatic experience. If we look back at our own teen years, when we were permanently separated from good friends because of any of the above reasons it left us feeling sad and empty, especially if we spent a lot of time with them. That goes into sharing with each other, caring about each other, supporting each other, and all of the other things that go along with being close friends, and the loss of all of that. No young person, IMO, would want to give that up if they thought there was a chance to salvage it.

But, as much as Severus valued those things, I think that he was sincerely sorry for what he'd said and that knew he'd hurt Lily very much. I've always thought he said what he did under extreme duress and therefore did not mean it. He knew it was wrong, although I don't think he really understood the depth of the meaning of the word the way that Muggleborns did. I think he was just as desperate to let her know that he was truly sorry as he was to save the relationship.



I think it's often forgotten that Lily and James were 21 when they were murdered. At 21 or younger, do we always make the best decisions?

It's unfair to place James, Sirius, Lily or the trio on a pedestal and judge them for the mistakes they made in their youth. Dumbledore fell for the worst kind of ideals when he was young. Which as we all know lead to the death of his sister and a lifetime estrangement with the only member of his family left. Harry forgave him however, he forgave him because he understood that in the end we're all vulnerable to great mistakes. Remorse and regret were a powerful force in changing a person and Harry understood that in the end,.

A good bit of this needs to go to the Snape thread for detailed discussion, but I'll address the things involving Lily here:

While 21 is young, it isn't that young. It's not like 17 or 18. Yes, we're still growing emotionally, but 21 is a time when most of us should have a pretty good grasp of common sense, at least. Dumbledore was only in his teens when he got involved with Grindlewald and was only about 18 when Ariana was killed, setting his life in a different direction.

I agree, it's not fair to set Lily, James, and Sirius on a pedestal and throw rocks at them. It's also not fair to set them on a pedestal and not look at their flaws along with other characters'.

When criticizing what happened with the Potters, I look at two people with a young son who has the world's most evil Dark Wizard out trying to find and kill him. And, I look at some of the decisions made, which do not follow common sense: not having Dumbledore for SK, not having wands at hand, not having an escape plan just in case the Fidelus Charm was breached. Those are the things I question, and, IMO, a 21-year-old who's already seen over two years of war and the effects of Voldemort's reign of terror should have been better prepared and more on guard, no matter what protections they had going for them.

Perhaps it's best if we for a minute consider stepping into Lily's shoes, she is friends with a boy who is part of a group that bullies girls like Lily by calling her slurs and bullying other Muggleborns and Halfbloods. She didn't want to see Severus as such, but his continued dogging of the issue by forcing it to be focused instead on the Marauders didn't solve the problem. I think it's important to remember that Snape only offered a small quantity of memories to help Harry understand the truth. It would seem to me that this was a long standing issue, it didn't simply happen over night.

I have tried stepping into Lily's shoes. When I look back at the memories I see that she has had a negative view of Severus from the time he first approached her. She thought he was insulting her by calling her a witch. She thought he'd intentionally dropped a limb on her sister. She blamed him for their invading Petunia's privacy and reading the Hogwart's letter. She hates his friends. She knows he's going to become a DE. She has looked for the worst in him since they met. So, I asked myself what would I have done? I wouldn't have gotten to be friends, much less "best friends" with someone I had such a low opinion of.

So, either Severus wasn't as bad as the worst Lily thought of him, or she was attracted to him because he knew about magic and she, being curious, used him to learn more and really didn't consider him her "best friend" at all.

Addressing the bullying of girls, plural, we only see one girl, Mary Macdonald, and we're not shown or told how many incidents against girls Lily actually witnessed or how many actually occurred. But, bullying is bullying, whether the victims are male or female or whether it's done by Slytherins or Gryffindors.

As far as "forcing" anything, in all of the conversations we are shown between Severus and Lily she has control of the conversations and, when he does get a chance to talk so much has been said that he has a hard time catching up. Lily was not a really good listener, IMO, anymore than Severus was. Most of the time she seemed to have her mind made up and was only looking for him to agree with her. Further discussion would have to go to the Snape thread.

Severus at the end of the day chose the Death Eater 'friends' over Lily. Besides, once again I think it must be made clear that Lily, Severus and the Marauders were fifteen-sixteen at the time. How many friendships has one ended over more trivial things? I can't exactly see anyone sticking with a friend who for example was part of a racist gang and than after you came to their help they called you a racist etipath. Let alone for the trivial things that make up high school life, like she-said/he-said. Even if we have a certain level of tolerance to our friends stupidity, everyone has a breaking point. Lily reached it that summer day after the O.W.L exams.

I'm not sure how uttering a really nasty word under extreme duress shows Severus' choosing his DE friends over Lily, but that, too, would need to got to the Snape thread.

When compared to the weathering of storms that Harry, Hermione, and Ron faced during their friendship, I don't see that Lily went through that much. She'd never felt threatened by Severus, himself. If anything she should have felt safer if she thought he was becoming a DE because it seems less likely they'd bother a friend of one of their own friends. Other than Avery and Mulciber, we don't see that Severus was part of a "gang." And, again, the purbloodist epithet was uttered under very extreme duress. I cannot fail to wonder why that Lily didn't give that any consideration when judging Severus' action. We see through his memories what a huge impact it had on him. I'm surprised, as a good friend, she didn't understand that.

She had every right to be angry with him and to put him on notice: "Calling me that name is the last straw. Change your ways or else it's all over. No more name-calling, dump your DE friends, straighten up your act." I think that's what a "best friend" would have done. But, that's my opinion.

I don't think all of this great contempt and disdain thrown at Lily for having ended her relationship with Severus, is warranted. It's like the whole cast the first stone if you're without sin idea.

It's a question of whether she was lying to him and using him for years because he knew about magic and she didn't, and then dumped him when she felt she had a "justifiable" reason. It seems, up to the time of SWM she felt she had good reasons not to be friends with Severus, almost from the start -- so, why did it take a word, said in a moment of frustration and torment (Harry's word) to put her over the edge? If he was as terrible as she seems to think, why did she become friends with him in the first place?

I don't have contempt for Lily. I just question her real motives when it comes to her relationship with Severus.

Eventually, Severus will join the DEs, but will also change sides and spend years as a spy, ultimately developing a moral compass. Lily appears to suspect Severus of wanting to join the DEs, but doesn't appear to have proof. The other fact, short of divination, she can't have known.
Lily does know that Snape wants to join the DEs; she confronts Snape about it, and he doesn't deny it. This is not the first time they've talked about Snape's desire to be a DE.
DH, chapter 33, pages 675-676 U.S. edition

"You and your precious little Death Eater friends -- you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?"

He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking.

Snape doesn't seem at a loss for words here -- he has no reply because it's true...that is what he wants. Lily knows this, and had been trying to get Snape to pay attention to think about what he was doing; she couldn't understand why he chose to be friends with Mulciber and Avery whom she called evil (memory just previous to the one quoted above). Lily also said she'd been making excuses to her friends for years about Severus, no doubt telling them that he wasn't really like that; she kept believing in him until he made it clear that he wasn't going to change his path.

I agree that Lily can't have foreseen that Snape would do a complete turnaround; but she also stayed loyal to him for a long time, even in the face of growing evidence that her friends were right.

There is a shocking lack of opinion and shades of grey in this thread. If you voice your opinion, make sure you mark it as such. Do not present your interpretation of a scene as fact. And it should go without saying that character bashing/worship is a no go, so please review your posts before hitting 'submit'.

No, neither could see the future, and, IMO, each was a bit naive and each was a bit set in their ways and not too willing to give in.

Considering that for Lily, giving in would mean condoning the actions of the DEs, I personally consider it a good thing that she didn't give in.


I think Lily felt that she'd suffered a lot because of her friendship with Severus, but she never seemed to give much thought to what was going on with him, being a Slytherin with a Muggleborn best friend. I'm sure that he took a lot of ribbing and possibly not-so-kind flack from his own Housemates. If Lily's other friends were giving her grief over her friendship with Severus, it isn't a big stretch to think he was getting the same amount over her.


There's a difference between critical of someone's behaviour, and being critical of someone because they're Muggleborn. Snape having a Muggleborn best friend should not have been an issue - Slytherin House was not populated entirely by bigots.

But, he never mentions this and doesn't seem to consider it a drawback. And, as you pointed out, he doesn't seem to understand why they can't all just go on they way the are. He doesn't see his friendships with either as excluding the other.

But they were and Lily finally realised that. One cannot run with the foxes and chase with the hounds -one can't truly be friends with both parties. DEs and Muggleborns could never truly have a friendship. The whole "oppress and murder Muggleborns" agenda of the DEs sort of raises a problem there.

I've never been able to decide though, was it Severus' not seeing Lily as a Muggleborn, or was it his lack of being steeped in the DE ideology (or a bit of both) that made him think that? Something made him think they could all "just get along."

Snape's idea that a Muggleborn could get along with Death Eaters and bigots is a topic for Snape's thread. Lily, however, could not be expected to get along with people who considered her scum, IMO.

No young person, IMO, would want to give that up if they thought there was a chance to salvage it.

I think Lily didn't see any chance to salvage it. There was little to salvage when her "friend" had just told her that he considered her utterly inferior, and undeserving of magic. I think she realised then how much Snape had changed, and how he was no longer the boy who she had been friends with.


She thought he was insulting her by calling her a witch.

She didn't know about magic, even though she had performed some herself. (Just like Harry and Hermione) She only knew of "witch" as an insult. I don't see what else she was supposed to think.

She hates his friends.

Considering who his friends are, that's hardly surprising. I would be disappointed in Lily if she approved of Mulciber and Avery.

So, either Severus wasn't as bad as the worst Lily thought of him, or she was attracted to him because he knew about magic and she, being curious, used him to learn more and really didn't consider him her "best friend" at all.

I think that applies to both of them. Snape would not have approached Lily if she had not been a witch, and Lily may or may not have been interested in a boy who spied on her from the hedge if he had not been a wizard.

When compared to the weathering of storms that Harry, Hermione, and Ron faced during their friendship, I don't see that Lily went through that much.

The trio never had to deal with one of their number joining the DEs, or throwing racist epithets. They had different circumstances to deal with.

If anything she should have felt safer if she thought he was becoming a DE because it seems less likely they'd bother a friend of one of their own friends.

Like Wormtail did? I think Lily was very unlike Wormtail. I don't think she was willing to put up with something demeaning in order to be permitted to live. She didn't need Snape's permission to be safe from the DEs. I think it would have been degrading and insulting to Lily to be "safe" because of Snape and his friends permitting her to be, and somehow expecting her to appreciate that. Again, I think that was the attitude Wormtail took when he joined the DEs. It didn't matter who else was hurt, it didn't matter what crimes were being committed, because he was safe. I can't picture Lily taking that kind of attitude.

Lily does know that Snape wants to join the DEs; she confronts Snape about it, and he doesn't deny it. This is not the first time they've talked about Snape's desire to be a DE.


IMO, unless Lily is psychic, she really cannot "know" that Severus wants to be a DE. While we can assume from the tone of the conversation that there have been other discussions about this, we're not shown what was said.

Snape doesn't seem at a loss for words here -- he has no reply because it's true...that is what he wants. Lily knows this, and had been trying to get Snape to pay attention to think about what he was doing; she couldn't understand why he chose to be friends with Mulciber and Avery whom she called evil (memory just previous to the one quoted above). Lily also said she'd been making excuses to her friends for years about Severus, no doubt telling them that he wasn't really like that; she kept believing in him until he made it clear that he wasn't going to change his path.

Opening and closing his mouth appears, to me, to be a definite sign of speechlessness. We don't know that it is true at this time that he wants to become a DE. IMO, he makes no reply because they've discussed it before, he's denied it before, and he's given up trying to convince Lily that he doesn't want to be a DE just because he hangs around with Avery and Mulciber. We don't really see that Severus, Avery, and Mulciber are "close" friends. Just that they are Housemates and he hangs around with them. We see no sign of them at all during SWM. If they'd been "close" friend I'd think they have come to his rescue during the pantsing.

Yes, Lily calls them "evil," and they might have been. But we're only shown that is based on her take on the Mary Macdonald incident. We don't see that, either, and are not told whether Lily witnessed it or got her information about it second-hand.

We are not shown anything that Severus did but hang around with Avery and Mulciber other than calling names. But calling names is something that seems to be pretty rampant at Hogwarts ("Snivellus, for example). We can discuss what Severus might have felt and known about using pure bloodist epithets on his thread.

I agree that Lily can't have foreseen that Snape would do a complete turnaround; but she also stayed loyal to him for a long time, even in the face of growing evidence that her friends were right.

We don't know how "loyal" Lily was to Severus, we only see that she says she had been "making excuses for him for years." IMO, that really isn't the same as being loyal. Being loyal is making it clear to people that someone is your friend and to disrespect them is unacceptable to you. She must not have done this if people kept coming to her with negative stories about him and she kept believing them.

Once again, we only have her perception that he was planning to be a DE, no admission. Silence is not an admission.

IMHO, Lily was a good person in a House where Slytherins were strongly disliked. IMO, the continued stories about what went on in Slytherin House (even though we have all pretty much admitted we don't think 100% of the Slytherins were DE wannabes), the stories about Severus -- whether true or not -- the constant peer pressure from her Housemates had a definite effect on Lily's view of her friend as the years went on. Since we aren't shown definite acts on his part up to SWM, and, I feel if they had happened the author would have done this to support Lily's stance, then IMO her perceptions of Severus in their Fifth Year was based more on what she'd heard and the constant hounding my her Housemates to dump him. If they were so against him, she probably started to think that she was missing something that was going on and that she'd look more of a fool if she found out they were right.

If she hadn't brought up his being ungrateful for James' having saved his life, I might be willing to buy into her having made the decision to dump Severus based on her moral stand against the DEs (whether he really was a budding DE or not).

But, when that came up it was pretty obvious that confidential information had been leaked and used in a discussion that went on after the Gryffindors returned to the common room that evening. Lily was more than likely bombarded with every reason she should get rid of Severus, including the name-calling. Even if she'd had an idea of possibly giving her friend a chance to apologize and to maybe try to set some guidelines if they were going to continue their friendship, I think it all got to be more than she wanted to handle and was making her extremely uncomfortable in her House surroundings and it was easier for her to get rid of him, since she wasn't going to be changing Houses. IMO, completely terminating the "friendship" had more to do with her friendships with her Housemates and less to do with an actual moral decision.

Also, they were both young and suffering from one of the great shortcomings of their ages: each of them thought they knew best.

No, neither could see the future, and, IMO, each was a bit naive and each was a bit set in their ways and not too willing to give in.

I, personally, feel that Severus felt a bit more invested in the friendship because Lily was his oldest and "best" friend. And, at 15-16, he was possibly feeling the beginning stirrings of love, but may not have realized it, more than likely never having seen much of that at home. More of that would have to go to his thread.

"Invested"? I don't see it. I think Severus showed Lily he expected her friendship when they were teens. I think Lily plainly states the things that she has concerns with in their conversation about Mulciver and Avery, but finds them brushed off with "I thought we were best friends"-- as if she is not allowed to have or express any worries about the Death Eater wannabe crowd that Severus hangs out with. I think Lily found that attitude from Severus to be very frustrating, especially given what was at stake.

I think Lily felt that she'd suffered a lot because of her friendship with Severus, but she never seemed to give much thought to what was going on with him, being a Slytherin with a Muggleborn best friend. I'm sure that he took a lot of ribbing and possibly not-so-kind flack from his own Housemates. If Lily's other friends were giving her grief over her friendship with Severus, it isn't a big stretch to think he was getting the same amount over her.

I look at it as Lily trying to point out the dangers of Severus's other friends, just as Lily's other friends were trying to point out the dangers of not seeing Severus as he really was to her.

Since being a Muggleborn was an issue for Lily during the First War, I suppose it was a learning curve for her to discover that some people would find being friends with her to be a problem. I think any issues that Severus might have had would be clouded by the fact that he wanted to hang out with the people who would find his friendship with her to be a problem, and that in the end he turned on her. I am dubious that all of Slytherin House was bigoted. We don't even know if any other Slytherin students of Severus's year were part of the DE Wannabes.

But, he never mentions this and doesn't seem to consider it a drawback. And, as you pointed out, he doesn't seem to understand why they can't all just go on they way the are. He doesn't see his friendships with either as excluding the other.

I've never been able to decide though, was it Severus' not seeing Lily as a Muggleborn, or was it his lack of being steeped in the DE ideology (or a bit of both) that made him think that? Something made him think they could all "just get along."

I think Lily believds that Severus is making an exception for her, as long as he feelt like it anyway. She asks him why she should be an exception, so I definitely see her as having percieved that he is a bigot who makes allowances for her sake only, and that she is not okay with that. That Severus would call other Muggleborns "Mudblood" I think would indicate to her that he does believe Muggleborns to be inferior. That he would call her "Mudblood" when she angers him I think would indicate to her that he believes she is inferior for being Muggleborn.

The loss of a good friend -- especially a "best" friend, whether through the break up of that friendship or through other causes (such as moving away or death) is a traumatic experience.

I think it was the fear of this loss that made Lily try to hold onto the friendship for so long. I think she had already experienced something similar with Petunia, when she was much younger, and now she faced the same sort of thing with Severus.

But, as much as Severus valued those things, I think that he was sincerely sorry for what he'd said and that knew he'd hurt Lily very much. I've always thought he said what he did under extreme duress and therefore did not mean it. He knew it was wrong, although I don't think he really understood the depth of the meaning of the word the way that Muggleborns did. I think he was just as desperate to let her know that he was truly sorry as he was to save the relationship.

I think Lily felt that Severus was not sorry that he thought Muggleborns were "Mudbloods", but only sorry that she had become angry when he used that word against her. I think she felt that he was trying to throw the ball back into her court with his desperate "apology", but she was done with that. I don't see anything that would indicate to Lily that Severus didn't know what "Mudblood" meant, or how best to use it to hurt Muggleborns.


So, I asked myself what would I have done? I wouldn't have gotten to be friends, much less "best friends" with someone I had such a low opinion of.

To me, it seems that child Lily was interested in and liked child Severus. So I would say first they were friends, and then best friends, and then as teens Lily began to have a low opinion of some of the things Severus was getting up to, and the widening gulf between them caused their friendship to fall apart.

So, either Severus wasn't as bad as the worst Lily thought of him, or she was attracted to him because he knew about magic and she, being curious, used him to learn more and really didn't consider him her "best friend" at all.

I reject both your either/or options. Severus wasn't a static character, in my opinion, who was a Death Eater spying on a girl from the bushes as a child, nor do I see that Lily percieved him that way. Lily was curious about Severus, I don't doubt because of his magic (just like when Harry and Ron first met; Harry was curious about Ron and his Wizarding family and wanted to question him about it, and Ron was curious about the Boy Who Lived and wanted to ask Harry about it), but curiosity can make a good start to a friendship and magic gave them something in common, and they were friends still five years ionto Hogwarts and five years after any theoretical "use" expired. I suspect that Lily didn't expect her friendship with Severus to be have to be based on her having to rely on Severus for something.

When compared to the weathering of storms that Harry, Hermione, and Ron faced during their friendship, I don't see that Lily went through that much. She'd never felt threatened by Severus, himself.

I think she felt that him calling her "Mudblood" was a threat, and his general treatment of other Muggleborns and his desire to join Voldemort. I think Lily states clearly that she finds Voldemrot and the Death Eaters to a threat. She calls Voldemort "You-Know-Who", indicating that she fears to say his name. (Comparing that to the trials and tribulations of the Trio :huh:)

If anything she should have felt safer if she thought he was becoming a DE because it seems less likely they'd bother a friend of one of their own friends.

Apparently, that's not what Lily wanted, though. She chose a different way, that fought against Voldemort, rather than accepted a place as an excepted Mudblood. I don't know why she would feel safer in that situation. Severus demonstrated that exceptions were only as good for how ever long the one making the exception let it be. She wouldn't be "safe" because she deserved it as a human being in her own right, she would only be safe as long as she was careful not to anger her protector, and she would lose the right to stand up for herself and her morals. I can't see her wanting that, ever.

IMO, unless Lily is psychic, she really cannot "know" that Severus wants to be a DE. While we can assume from the tone of the conversation that there have been other discussions about this, we're not shown what was said.


From the way JKR has written that scene, it seems to me that Snape is confirming that he offers no defense to Lily's accusation because it is what he wants, to be a DE and join Voldemort. As readers we do have the benefit of hindsight here, because we know Snape did indeed become a DE & join Voldy. But I believe that it was JKR's intent to portray Snape as confirming this with his silence; we're given no description that in any way hints that Snape was uncomfortable or flustered by Lily's assertions...I think he saw nothing wrong with his plans. As JKR used descriptions in the other memories to portray Snape's emotions/thoughts (the way his mouth twists with a smile when Lily says his name; that he looks miserable and confused after the incident with the tree branch falling on Petunia; that he lets out a tiny groan when Lily is put into Gryffindor; how his step lightens when Lily implies she does not like James Potter, etc.) -- I think the description of a calm, unbothered Snape not making an argument is meant to be an affirmation.

From the way JKR has written that scene, it seems to me that Snape is confirming that he offers no defense to Lily's accusation because it is what he wants, to be a DE and join Voldemort. As readers we do have the benefit of hindsight here, because we know Snape did indeed become a DE & join Voldy. But I believe that it was JKR's intent to portray Snape as confirming this with his silence; we're given no description that in any way hints that Snape was uncomfortable or flustered by Lily's assertions...I think he saw nothing wrong with his plans. As JKR used descriptions in the other memories to portray Snape's emotions/thoughts (the way his mouth twists with a smile when Lily says his name; that he looks miserable and confused after the incident with the tree branch falling on Petunia; that he lets out a tiny groan when Lily is put into Gryffindor; how his step lightens when Lily implies she does not like James Potter, etc.) -- I think the description of a calm, unbothered Snape not making an argument is meant to be an affirmation.

As you've noted above JKR used descriptions in the other memories, but there is NO description of a calm, unbothered Snape in this scene, only that he opened and closed his mouth. Perhaps he was rendered speechless by her accusation. (IMO)

He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking. (pg. 676, DH, Scholastic trade ppb.)

I deleted a bunch of posts that should have been taken to owls. The majority of you should know how it works by now.

As you've noted above JKR used descriptions in the other memories, but there is NO description of a calm, unbothered Snape in this scene, only that he opened and closed his mouth. Perhaps he was rendered speechless by her accusation. (IMO)

He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking. (pg. 676, DH, Scholastic trade ppb.)

While I believe I understand your viewpoint, I also notice that Snape is vocal enough on the other issue (the mudblood remark) which I would have thought to be the one to leave him speechless, as his own feelings for Lily were involved there. That seems the emotional topic of the conversation.

Wanting to join up with DEs...I think Snape sees it more a career choice and a chance to align with what he sees as a powerful wizard; and I think Lily sees it as a moral choice as well. As Lily had been vocal about DEs before with Snape (the previous memory in the pensieve), he knew she didn't approve of his choice, so he decided not to defend it to her. But silence can often speak as clearly as words, and I think the way Lily saw it was as an affirmation (so do I).

I understand how you arrived at your conclusion, but that fact that Snape's nickname for himself was "The Half-Blood Prince" still leads me to think he never really believed in blood supremacy.

I'd like to address this in the Snape thread. :)

Delete this if i am not allowed to discuss it (though i think i am now that Pottermore is open).

Ron's wand is made of Williow

Willow (Ron's wand)

Willow is an uncommon wand wood with healing power, and I have noted that the ideal owner for a willow wand often has some (usually unwarranted) insecurity, however well they may try and hide it. While many confident customers insist on trying a willow wand (attracted by their handsome appearance and well-founded reputation for enabling advanced, non-verbal magic) my willow wands have consistently selected those of greatest potential, rather than those who feel they have little to learn. It has always been a proverb in my family that he who has furthest to travel will go fastest with willow.


and he has a core of a Unicorn hair

[spoiler tag deleted because we aren't told Lily's wand core]

What is also interesting is that the only other person with a Willow wand in the known Harry Potter universe is "Lily Evans/Potter" and it is quite possible that Lily's wand also had a unicorn hair core in it as well. I never thought of Ron and Lily as being similar before but their wands are almost identical so that would imply on a deeper level Ron and Lily are quite similar. What does everyone else think?

The most interesting thing I see is the note about owners of willow wands having insecurities, even if they are unwarranted. I have always gotten the impression that Lily would have carried several insecurities with her, namely the question every muggleborn came to Hogwarts with: does blood really make a difference?, as well as the insecurities I'm sure Petunia continued to breed in her little sister: Lily probably knew rationally that she wasn't a freak but, as with those trapped in abusive relationships or under somewhat constant torment from someone inflicting mental abuse, the victim does sort of absorb or begin to believe their tormenter is telling the truth.

An interesting notion.

Is there any evidence that Lily continued with Potions after 5th year?

Is there any evidence that Lily continued with Potions after 5th year?

Not directly, but Prof. Slughorn appears to be comparing Harry's 6th year potions work with Lily's.

From the Snape CA thread:

The quote shows that Severus knew that his magic had caused the limb to drop. But it does not show that he did it on purpose. The quote is inconclusive in that regard. It is just as likely - in fact, I find it more likely given all the history we are given with accidental underage magic - that the limb dropped as an accidental result of the boy's agitation.

His magic "ma[d]e it happen," and he knew that, and he lied about it. But that's all we know for sure. IMO, we do not know that he intended for it to happen.

Fair enough, but based on Divvie's statement of

Lily from the very first moment didn't accept Snape for who he was and always assumed the worst of him

[my underlining]

and based on the the fact that Lily knew virtually nothing of magic at this time, as I said before,

when that tree limb falls on Petunia, to Lily it's a reasonable assumtpion that Snape did it on purpose

[my underlining]

Just like with Lily assuming Snape was insulting her by calling her a witch - it was a reasonable assumption based on Lily's experiences up to that point in her life.

IMO, Lily gave Snape a lot of leeway rather than a lot of blame. He insulted her and she went back to talk to him and learned the truth. He (purposefully or not) dropped a limb on her sister and injured her and Lily forgave him, remained friends with him and even went snooping with him into her sister's room. She remained friends with him despite peer pressure from her Gyrffindor friends asking why she was still his friend. She stayed friends with him despite the fact that she knew he was aiming to be a Death Eater and that remaining his friend could very well cost her her life if things kept escalating.

It seems to me that if Lily was predisposed to do anything it wasn't assuming the worst of Snape from the start or blaming him for anything, it was a need to kiss and make up, to heal wounds, to leave things on good terms. She was so torn up by Petunia's words on the platform before she left that she cried until the train had reached countryside. She repeatedly forgives Snape for doing things that hurt her and it takes her a looooooooong time and the worst insult he could possibly hurl at her for her to finally get it through her thick skull that maybe they shouldn't be friends anymore.

From the Snape CA thread:

Fair enough, but based on Divvie's statement of

[my underlining]

and based on the the fact that Lily knew virtually nothing of magic at this time, as I said before,

[my underlining]

Just like with Lily assuming Snape was insulting her by calling her a witch - it was a reasonable assumption based on Lily's experiences up to that point in her life.

Okay, fair enough. Thanks for elaborating on how you meant your remarks. :)

I was referring to what is objectively known to be true based upon the passage you quoted. But I agree that Lily's experience of magic at that point would most likely incline her to believe in the intentionality of the act. We see from our first view of Lily in TPT that she had tremendous control over her own magic. She would probably be surprised to learn that the same is not true of most Wizarding children.

Okay, fair enough. Thanks for elaborating on how you meant your remarks. :)

I was referring to what is objectively known to be true based upon the passage you quoted. But I agree that Lily's experience of magic at that point would most likely incline her to believe in the intentionality of the act. We see from our first view of Lily in TPT that she had tremendous control over her own magic. She would probably be surprised to learn that the same is not true of most Wizarding children.

Well, they've just discussed unintentional magic in that same scene:“But I have done magic outside school!”

“We’re all right. We haven’t got wands yet. They let you off when you’re a kid and you can’t help it. But once you’re eleven,” he nodded importantly, “and they start training you, then you’ve got to go careful.”So Snape has just tried to reassure her that pre-wand magic by children, who can't help it, is not an offense but she immediately turns around and accuses him of doing just that. Rather how the Dursleys treated Harry.

Well, they've just discussed unintentional magic in that same scene:“But I have done magic outside school!”

“We’re all right. We haven’t got wands yet. They let you off when you’re a kid and you can’t help it. But once you’re eleven,” he nodded importantly, “and they start training you, then you’ve got to go careful.”So Snape has just tried to reassure her that pre-wand magic by children, who can't help it, is not an offense but she immediately turns around and accuses him of doing just that. Rather how the Dursleys treated Harry.

They've been discussing it, but it's still not her personal experience of how underage magic works. Her personal experience is that she can "help it." What Severus tells her would be more theoretical for her than experiential... even though not being able to "help it" is the experience of probably 99% of underage magic children.

If she had grown up in a magical family, her response would probably have been quite different. She most likely would have assumed that his magic was unintended because that is almost always the case in instances of underage wandless magic. But without possessing that context, she has largely her own experience to draw on as a point of comparison.

They've been discussing it, but it's still not her personal experience of how underage magic works. Her personal experience is that she can "help it." What Severus tells her would be more theoretical for her than experiential... even though not being able to "help it" is the experience of probably 99% of underage magic children.

If she had grown up in a magical family, her response would probably have been quite different. She most likely would have assumed that his magic was unintended because that is almost always the case in instances of underage wandless magic. But without possessing that context, she has largely her own experience to draw on as a point of comparison.

But how did Lily learn about her own magic? I don't suspect she knew how to control it from day one. She would have had to notice that odd things happened around her that didn't happen around her parents or Petunia. Then she would have to make rather an illogical leap that what was happening came from her and she could control it. She would then have to practice controlling it. I'm not seeing her as being ignorant of accidental magic. I think it would have been very similar to Harry's experience--he had no control over his magic, even at eleven. Lily seemed to have figured some of it out by nine.

Well, they've just discussed unintentional magic in that same scene:“But I have done magic outside school!”

“We’re all right. We haven’t got wands yet. They let you off when you’re a kid and you can’t help it. But once you’re eleven,” he nodded importantly, “and they start training you, then you’ve got to go careful.”So Snape has just tried to reassure her that pre-wand magic by children, who can't help it, is not an offense but she immediately turns around and accuses him of doing just that. Rather how the Dursleys treated Harry.

In Lily's experience, though, she can control magic, she can perform magic without a wand and the magic that she is refering to, IMO, when she says “But I have done magic outside school!” it is still intentional, controled magic. We don't know for sure how long she has been able to control it or when the last time she she performed accidental magic was. It could have been years. She could not even remember a time when she couldn't control her magic. (Nice double negative there, sorry)

She also seems to experience Snape exerting some level of control over his magic so the limb falling on Petunia, to Lily, seems intentional. She may even have done something similar but didn't consider that it was accidental or that she couldn't have controled it or that it began as accidental magic but brought it under control...

They've been discussing it, but it's still not her personal experience of how underage magic works. Her personal experience is that she can "help it." What Severus tells her would be more theoretical for her than experiential... even though not being able to "help it" is the experience of probably 99% of underage magic children.

If she had grown up in a magical family, her response would probably have been quite different. She most likely would have assumed that his magic was unintended because that is almost always the case in instances of underage wandless magic. But without possessing that context, she has largely her own experience to draw on as a point of comparison.

I agree. She doesn't know that her being able to control her magic before going to Hogwarts is unusual. Aside from Voldemort, hers is the only other confirmed intentional pre-Hogwarts magic performed. All of Harry's pre-Hogwarts magic is unintentional or accidental.

And if Lily could control her magic and "fly" off the swing at age nine, wandless, why didn't she jump out the window in Godric's Hollow with Harry? (We wouldn't have a story otherwise is an insufficient answer.)

But how did Lily learn about her own magic? I don't suspect she knew how to control it from day one. She would have had to notice that odd things happened around her that didn't happen around her parents or Petunia. Then she would have to make rather an illogical leap that what was happening came from her and she could control it. She would then have to practice controlling it. I'm not seeing her as being ignorant of accidental magic. I think it would have been very similar to Harry's experience--he had no control over his magic, even at eleven. Lily seemed to have figured some of it out by nine.

Your inference is plausible... but it is by no means certain imo. Most children require training to be able to fly on a broomstick, but Harry instinctively knew how to fly. It is similarly possible that Lily already knew how to control her magic before it happened.

Since we are given no context or background for Lily's wandless magic other than what we see, I would prefer to give her the same benefit of the doubt that I give other characters when the argument is based on inference. That's not to say that your inference is wrong. But it is not proven imo.

ETA:

And if Lily could control her magic and "fly" off the swing at age nine, wandless, why didn't she jump out the window in Godric's Hollow with Harry? (We wouldn't have a story otherwise is an insufficient answer.)

In my opinion we know that she could control her magic and fly off the swing at roughly age nine. That, I believe, is an objective fact demonstrated in the text. We also know she did not fly out of the window. The reason for this disjunction is not stated.

One possibility, though, is that her subsequent training worked against her. People get their natural instincts trained out of them all the time. I think that after being trained to use a wand under pretty nearly all magical circumstances (and also being trained to believe that unaided flight is not possible), it is quite likely that it never occurred to her to "fly" out the window.

There are probably other possible explanations as well.

Your inference is plausible... but it is by no means certain imo. Most children require training to be able to fly on a broomstick, but Harry instinctively knew how to fly. It is similarly possible that Lily already knew how to control her magic before it happened.

Since we are given no context or background for Lily's wandless magic other than what we see, I would prefer to give her the same benefit of the doubt that I give other characters when the argument is based on inference. That's not to say that your inference is wrong. But it is not proven imo.

Agreed--there's not enough information to prove either hypothesis.

Another point--when Snape says "They let you off when you’re a kid and you can’t help it", Lily does not question him about that statement. I think if she were unaware that children produce unintentional magic she would have asked for further explanation.

Another point--when Snape says "They let you off when you’re a kid and you can’t help it", Lily does not question him about that statement. I think if she were unaware that children produce unintentional magic she would have asked for further explanation.

Well, take a look at her body language. He starts talking about wands, and she soon afterward picks up a twig and starts twirling it "in the air" as if it's a wand. In other words, at some point after he mentions wands, she goes into "play" mode and starts imagining herself with a wand in hand.

Given her imaginative response to the topic, I would say that we don't know how much logical processing and analysis she was actually doing after he mentioned wands.

Well, take a look at her body language. He starts talking about wands, and she soon afterward picks up a twig and starts twirling it "in the air" as if it's a wand. In other words, at some point after he mentions wands, she goes into "play" mode and starts imagining herself with a wand in hand.

Given her imaginative response to the topic, I would say that we don't know how much logical processing and analysis she was actually doing after he mentioned wands.

She seemed quite concerned about the subject and, being the inquisitive and intelligent girl she appeared to be, I think that would have been a ready question, not involving too much concentration on her part.

She seemed quite concerned about the subject and, being the inquisitive and intelligent girl she appeared to be, I think that would have been a ready question, not involving too much concentration on her part.

But some intelligent and inquisitive people will process information linearly or analytically, while others who are similarly inquisitive and intelligent will process information more globally or tangentially.

As an intuitive thinker whose mind processes information tangentially and imaginatively via extroverted intuition, it is second-nature for me as a reader to perceive Lily in this scene as going off on - and getting lost in - a mental tangent. Someone with a more linear or concrete thought process would probably make different assumptions about the scene.

I guess the real question, though, is how Lily's mind works. She is generally regarded as INFJ in Myers-Briggs terms, which according to the theory means that (among other things) she would tend to process information globally and imaginatively, via introverted intuition. As an intuitive, she would tend to be more focused on where her imagination leads than on the concrete data that is the subject of the conversation. And as someone using introverted intuition, she would tend to pull together information more as an afterthought than as part of a conscious process. For INFJs things suddenly come together - but sometimes well after the individual first gathers the information.

Consequently, I don't think it's safe to assume that Lily fully grasped all of the implications of what her friend had told her about underage magic before she accused him of dropping the tree limb intentionally. Her imagination was clearly "triggered" by the word "wand," and she may well have been slow to process the concrete data... because that's just the way global processing often works. It comes together as an "Aha" moment on its own schedule.

In my opinion we know that she could control her magic and fly off the swing at roughly age nine. That, I believe, is an objective fact demonstrated in the text. We also know she did not fly out of the window. The reason for this disjunction is not stated.

One possibility, though, is that her subsequent training worked against her. People get their natural instincts trained out of them all the time. I think that after being trained to use a wand under pretty nearly all magical circumstances (and also being trained to believe that unaided flight is not possible), it is quite likely that it never occurred to her to "fly" out the window.

There are probably other possible explanations as well.
Well, Harry did fly up to the roof of the school to escape the bullying by other kids. My guess would be that magical children have that innate ability. Neville's uncle dangling him off the window was probably expecting him to fly the same way Lily and Harry did.

I especially concur with this part of ccollinsmith's post:
One possibility, though, is that her subsequent training worked against her. People get their natural instincts trained out of them all the time. I think that after being trained to use a wand under pretty nearly all magical circumstances (and also being trained to believe that unaided flight is not possible), it is quite likely that it never occurred to her to "fly" out the window.

Also, Lily was in a panic. There she was, wandless, her husband dead, her baby son in mortal danger. And, like ccollinsmith says, flying without a broom had been sort of trained out of her, she didn't even think of it.

In Lily's experience, though, she can control magic, she can perform magic without a wand and the magic that she is refering to, IMO, when she says “But I have done magic outside school!” it is still intentional, controled magic. We don't know for sure how long she has been able to control it or when the last time she she performed accidental magic was. It could have been years. She could not even remember a time when she couldn't control her magic. (Nice double negative there, sorry)

She also seems to experience Snape exerting some level of control over his magic so the limb falling on Petunia, to Lily, seems intentional. She may even have done something similar but didn't consider that it was accidental or that she couldn't have controled it or that it began as accidental magic but brought it under control...



I agree. She doesn't know that her being able to control her magic before going to Hogwarts is unusual. Aside from Voldemort, hers is the only other confirmed intentional pre-Hogwarts magic performed. All of Harry's pre-Hogwarts magic is unintentional or accidental.

My impression is that the examples of "accidental" magic done by children are more comparable to making a wish and having it come true. The magic done in such situations is more of an instinctive response based on something they want to happen rather than them doing a specific spell intentionally. Those who realize that they are doing these things themselves are able to develop some control over it because they have realized they can make things happen simply by wanting it, IMO. For example, when Lily wanted to show Petunia what would happen when she jumped out of the swing, it appears that she has done that before so she knows that she will levitate and float gently to the ground rather than fall hard and hurt herself. She believes that because it happened before, IMO.

In that respect, intention is still important to the process, IMO. The examples we are given for such incidents are not random occurrences of magic - the magic done is specific to the circumstances involved and what the child wants at the time. Harry finds himself on the roof when he was being chased by Dudley's gang because he wanted to escape them - the magic that occurs is the result of his intention to get away from Dudleys gang. When Dudley shoves him away from the snake's cage at the zoo, Harry is angry and wants to get back at Dudley - the glass disappears and Dudley is scared of the snake. Harry also felt sympathy for the snake in being caged up so wanting to free it was probably part of his intention there as well. Likewise, Neville was scared of getting hurt when his uncle dropped him out of the window - his intention was to protect himself so he bounced, IMO. Ron tells Harry about Fred turning his teddy bear into a spider because he was angry with Ron for breaking his toy broomstick - Fred's intention was to hurt/scare Ron because he was angry.

The difference with Harry is that he did not realize that he was actually doing those things himself. He didn't understand why such weird things happened to him or around him and he looked for logical explanations - i.e. thinking the wind must have caught him in mid jump and carried him to the roof when he attempted to jump over a trash can while running away from Dudley's gang. Harry had spent the last 10 years with the Dursleys - who went to extremes to be "perfectly normal" and didn't approve of even imagining things that were not "perfectly normal" - so I think it makes sense that Harry never considered the possibility that he was doing those things. Lily's parents were more open minded from what we're shown so it was easier for her to accept that she was doing those things herself and be pleased by it rather than be afraid she would be punished like Harry was, IMO.

I would say that's why Lily realized that Snape had made the branch fall on Petunia and injure her shoulder. She had done magic the same way herself and she understood that, to make something like that happen, there had to be some intention involved. Snape may not have specifically planned to drop a branch on Petunia and injure her shoulder, but he had to want to hurt Petunia for something like that to happen from what we're shown - the same as Harry wanted to escape Dudley's gang, Fred wanted to hurt or scare Ron, and Neville wanted to avoid getting hurt when his uncle dropped him out of a window. Realizing that Snape wanted to hurt Petunia is what made Lily angry, IMO. I think Snape trying to lie and claim he didn't make it happen only made that situation worse for Lily.

And if Lily could control her magic and "fly" off the swing at age nine, wandless, why didn't she jump out the window in Godric's Hollow with Harry? (We wouldn't have a story otherwise is an insufficient answer.)

For the same reason that Neville did not bounce when he fell off the broom from a great height in PS/SS, IMO. Once they start learning how to control their magic, those accidental bursts of power are gradually going to stop happening - and eventually not happen at all. As a child, it is mostly instinctive - you want something to happen and make it happen without really knowing how you did it. As I said above, I think that would be similar to making a wish. As you start learning spells and magical theory, you gain control and such instinctive responses would no longer be necessary because you know how to make specific things happen - or at least are learning the specific spells necessary for that. As an adult, Lily would be less likely to act entirely on instinct and the odds of her being able to do any magic without a wand would be significantly decreased from when she was a child, IMO. Jumping out of a window with her 15 month old son would be extremely risky and she couldn't guarantee she would be able to levitate like she did as a child - or that Harry would because he wouldn't realize the danger at 15 months, IMO.

Realizing that Snape wanted to hurt Petunia is what made Lily angry, IMO. I think Snape trying to lie and claim he didn't make it happen only made that situation worse for Lily.

Sometimes we become angry with someone because of what they said or did, but that doesn't mean we want to actually physically hurt them - we're just feeling intense emotion at that moment. An underage wizard, when feeling those emotions, can sometimes cause physical changes in the environment, even if that wasn't their intention, I believe. Snape may have been angry with Petunia, but IMHO I don't think he tried to make a branch fall from a tree and hit her. This is why i think the MoM gives a pass to underage wizards - things happen which are not under their control. Snape, i think, was shocked and confused, and didn't fully understand himself what had happened. It was unexpected and not his intention.

Lily choosing to fly and making it happen is a completely different situation, I think. She wanted to fly, and she was able to do so. It was intentional.

Lily knew her sister had been hurt, she knew Snape was angry, and did not have the adult, wizarding capability to understand in full what had happened. It was simple cause and effect to her. Myself, I see it as more complicated, but Lily was a child at the time who lived in a muggle world. Magic was new to her, I think.

Sometimes we become angry with someone because of what they said or did, but that doesn't mean we want to actually physically hurt them - we're just feeling intense emotion at that moment. An underage wizard, when feeling those emotions, can sometimes cause physical changes in the environment, even if that wasn't their intention, I believe. Snape may have been angry with Petunia, but IMHO I don't think he tried to make a branch fall from a tree and hit her. This is why i think the MoM gives a pass to underage wizards - things happen which are not under their control. Snape, i think, was shocked and confused, and didn't fully understand himself what had happened. It was unexpected and not his intention.

Lily choosing to fly and making it happen is a completely different situation, I think. She wanted to fly, and she was able to do so. It was intentional.

Lily knew her sister had been hurt, she knew Snape was angry, and did not have the adult, wizarding capability to understand in full what had happened. It was simple cause and effect to her. Myself, I see it as more complicated, but Lily was a child at the time who lived in a muggle world. Magic was new to her, I think.

From what we are shown with Harry's accidental uses of magic as well as what we hear regarding Neville and Fred, I would have to disagree with that. Intention is part of it in that they are making something happen because they want it to happen from what we're shown. They may not be thinking of something specific or know exactly how they did it, but the generality of what they want is intentional. It's never just random incidents of magic occurring for no reason. Harry ended up on the roof because he wanted to escape Dudley's gang. Neville bounced because he wanted to avoid getting hurt in the fall. Fred turned Ron's teddy bear into a spider because he wanted to hurt and/or scare Ron. They didn't know how they did those things, but they did want something like that to happen due to feeling strong emotions like anger or fear.

Based on what we're shown regarding such incidents, the only reason for that branch to fall and injure Petunia's shoulder was that Snape wanted to hurt her because he was angry. And to be clear, I'm not saying that was unforgivable - obviously, Lily forgave Snape for that because that incident did not end their friendship. I would actually put that in the same context of Fred wanting to hurt or scare Ron with the spider. Snape was 10 and he was angry. That's why the Ministry overlooks such incidents - children don't have much impulse control so they are more likely to react instinctively even without magic. The ability to do magic makes it more likely that something will happen as a result of what they're feeling and what they want because of those feelings. It did not appear to me that Snape was confused about what he had done at all - the third person narrator does specify that Snape tried to lie so we know that he was aware of what he had done, IMO. However, that does not mean that Snape would not have regretted that after the fact - even if his regret was only due to that making Lily angry.

Even with the ability to control magic, people can be driven to want to hurt someone in anger. Hermione slapped Malfoy and threatened to curse him because she was angry about him making fun of Hagrid's grief over Buckbeak. She also sent birds to attack Ron - which left scars on his hands - because she was hurt and angry when he started dating Lavender. Harry threw a badge at Ron and hit him in the forehead - hoping it hurt and would scar because he was so angry at the time. They regretted such things after they calmed down, but in the heat of the moment, they wanted to hurt the person who made them angry.

I think it was the same for Snape when it came to Petunia. He was already disdainful of her simply because she was a muggle and he considered her inferior. Petunia's rude behavior and insults made him angry and when she embarrassed him in front of Lily, he lashed out. That's not an unusual response for a child so I wouldn't really say there's any fault because both Snape and Lily had normal reactions to circumstances that made them angry, IMO.

From what we are shown with Harry's accidental uses of magic as well as what we hear regarding Neville and Fred, I would have to disagree with that. Intention is part of it in that they are making something happen because they want it to happen from what we're shown. They may not be thinking of something specific or know exactly how they did it, but the generality of what they want is intentional. It's never just random incidents of magic occurring for no reason. Harry ended up on the roof because he wanted to escape Dudley's gang. Neville bounced because he wanted to avoid getting hurt in the fall. Fred turned Ron's teddy bear into a spider because he wanted to hurt and/or scare Ron. They didn't know how they did those things, but they did want something like that to happen due to feeling strong emotions like anger or fear.
Makes sense to me. :agree:

Even with the ability to control magic, people can be driven to want to hurt someone in anger. Hermione slapped Malfoy and threatened to curse him because she was angry about him making fun of Hagrid's grief over Buckbeak. She also sent birds to attack Ron - which left scars on his hands - because she was hurt and angry when he started dating Lavender. Harry threw a badge at Ron and hit him in the forehead - hoping it hurt and would scar because he was so angry at the time. They regretted such things after they calmed down, but in the heat of the moment, they wanted to hurt the person who made them angry.
Good comparison. Thanks for reminding us of those incidents that show that, in anger or hurt, one wants to lash out and hurt, even one's friends or the person one loves.

I think it was the same for Snape when it came to Petunia. He was already disdainful of her simply because she was a muggle and he considered her inferior. Petunia's rude behavior and insults made him angry and when she embarrassed him in front of Lily, he lashed out. That's not an unusual response for a child so I wouldn't really say there's any fault because both Snape and Lily had normal reactions to circumstances that made them angry, IMO.
I can only agree here also.

It also explains why Snape lashed out at Lily and called her a Mudblood, though it was not at her he was angry at. But he had been humiliated in front of her, and he wanted to hurt someone back.

In the same vein, Lily's reaction to the insult was also perfectly normal - saying she'd refrain from helping from then on, and then making that remark about the state of cleanliness of Snape's underwear.

But some intelligent and inquisitive people will process information linearly or analytically, while others who are similarly inquisitive and intelligent will process information more globally or tangentially.

As an intuitive thinker whose mind processes information tangentially and imaginatively via extroverted intuition, it is second-nature for me as a reader to perceive Lily in this scene as going off on - and getting lost in - a mental tangent. Someone with a more linear or concrete thought process would probably make different assumptions about the scene.

Ah. And I'm analytical. I can see how we, each from our own viewpoint, could project our own thinking style onto Lily.

I guess the real question, though, is how Lily's mind works. She is generally regarded as INFJ in Myers-Briggs terms, which according to the theory means that (among other things) she would tend to process information globally and imaginatively, via introverted intuition.

Not being very familiar with the Myers-Briggs test, I googled it. Seems Lily has been assigned a half dozen different MB designations. To try and label her according to this test seems even more tentative than to deduce from her conversation with Snape that she knew about accidental magic because he told her about it.

As an intuitive, she would tend to be more focused on where her imagination leads than on the concrete data that is the subject of the conversation. And as someone using introverted intuition, she would tend to pull together information more as an afterthought than as part of a conscious process. For INFJs things suddenly come together - but sometimes well after the individual first gathers the information.

Although I can see this as a possibility, I don't think intuitives always think globally, just as I don't believe analyticals always think linearly (I know I don't); It is their predominant mode of thinking, respectively, but not necessarily their only way of thinking. In the case of intuitives, I think concern, worry or fear would cause them to focus a bit more on what is being said.

Consequently, I don't think it's safe to assume that Lily fully grasped all of the implications of what her friend had told her about underage magic before she accused him of dropping the tree limb intentionally. Her imagination was clearly "triggered" by the word "wand," and she may well have been slow to process the concrete data... because that's just the way global processing often works. It comes together as an "Aha" moment on its own schedule.

And I still don't see how she could not be aware of accidental magic in children, or at least in herself. If she was an intuitive, I can't see her having such ironclad control over her emotions, especially as a child, that she would never have experienced an outburst that caused magic she didn't consciously intend, or that she didn't notice.

And for Lily to be such a "dab hand" at Potions, I think she would have had a bit of natural analytical thinking ability, even at a young age. Unless, of course, Snape did all her work for her.

Snape may not have specifically planned to drop a branch on Petunia and injure her shoulder, but he had to want to hurt Petunia for something like that to happen from what we're shown - the same as Harry wanted to escape Dudley's gang, Fred wanted to hurt or scare Ron, and Neville wanted to avoid getting hurt when his uncle dropped him out of a window. Realizing that Snape wanted to hurt Petunia is what made Lily angry, IMO. I think Snape trying to lie and claim he didn't make it happen only made that situation worse for Lily.

I don't think Snape woukd have needed an intention to hurt Petunia for the branch to magically drop on her. He may simply have wanted her to go away. With the possibility of her vanishing completely, she was lucky she only got the branch.

Snape may not have specifically planned to drop a branch on Petunia and injure her shoulder, but he had to want to hurt Petunia for something like that to happen from what we're shown - the same as Harry wanted to escape Dudley's gang, Fred wanted to hurt or scare Ron, and Neville wanted to avoid getting hurt when his uncle dropped him out of a window. Realizing that Snape wanted to hurt Petunia is what made Lily angry, IMO. I think Snape trying to lie and claim he didn't make it happen only made that situation worse for Lily.

I don't think Snape woukd have needed an intention to hurt Petunia for the branch to magically drop on her. He may simply have wanted her to go away. With the possibility of her vanishing completely, she was lucky she only got the branch.

Ah. And I'm analytical. I can see how we, each from our own viewpoint, could project our own thinking style onto Lily.

Actually, I'm NT (intuitive thinker) - and therefore also analytical. But my analytical process is mildly secondary to my intuitive process.

Not being very familiar with the Myers-Briggs test, I googled it. Seems Lily has been assigned a half dozen different MB designations. To try and label her according to this test seems even more tentative than to deduce from her conversation with Snape that she knew about accidental magic because he told her about it.

I was referring to a general consensus opinion designating Lily as INFJ - largely among people who understand how Jung's cognitive functions work within the Myers-Briggs theory. There are dissenting opinions, of course. But I was also saying that IF this designation is correct, then her dominant cognitive process would tend toward processing information globally. Let me add that I see the theory as more a metaphor than a straitjacket. It can show personality and cognitive trends. It cannot make rock solid predictions.

The basic thrust of what I was saying, though, was that we cannot project our own thinking patterns onto Lily and assume that how we process information is the way other equally intelligent people do. In other words, there is no one way to think, and neither my tangential preference nor your analytical preference is likely to be the way that Lily thinks. The fact that Lily was quickly off on pretending to hold a wand indicates a strong possibility that she was not really listening carefully to the details of what Severus was saying. It's not certain, but I'd say it's quite likely. And it would be consistent with the INFJ type.

And for Lily to be such a "dab hand" at Potions, I think she would have had a bit of natural analytical thinking ability, even at a young age. Unless, of course, Snape did all her work for her.

We are not talking about an either/or scenario here though. The dominant process is a preference. It's not the only way in which a person can operate. If Lily is an INFJ, then her tertiary process would be introverted thinking, which is highly analytical. If her tertiary process was well-formed at an early age (it usually develops somewhat later), then she would have done quite well with analysis.

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realized. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

He let her know a lot of stuff that she was missing out on being raised by Muggles. Also, it helped prepare her for Hogwarts and the magical world.

Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

I feel like their relationship could have been repaired because as children they weren't mature enough to understand each other but as adults they should have known better and tried harder to mend the relationship. But this would only work if both sisters wanted to fix their relationship. I don't think that Petunia really wanted to.

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

She seemed really popular so she had a lot of friends from both Gryffindor and Ravenclaw (maybe even Hufflepuff) and they were preppy-type people. I suppose she hung out with this people that were like her (maybe other Muggle borns and stuff).

According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

It shows that she doesn't care what anyone, including her friends, think of her relationship with Snape. She is strong and independent enough to hang out with who she wants. Her friends probably didn't mean anything bad when they couldn't understand why she hung out with Snape; they probably thought that Snape was evil and he was into the Dark Arts so why would a girl like Lily hang out with him?

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

To me it seems that Snape's prejudices always bugged her but she didn't break their friendship because she liked him. But after a while her annoyance started to built up and she began to have doubts on how good of a person he was and when he called her a Mudblood than that was the last straw. I don't think she would have reconsidered her decision had she lived because after breaking her friendship with Snape although she was probably upset after a while she got over it and moved one with her life. She may have forgiven Snape if he ever joined the good side.

I have to wonder, if Lily was popular and had lots of friends in Hogwarts why did none of them ever try to get in touch with Harry at any point in his life?

I have to wonder, if Lily was popular and had lots of friends in Hogwarts why did none of them ever try to get in touch with Harry at any point in his life?

It's odd that Lily didn't have a friend standing up with her at her wedding, nor did Harry have a godmother. So I can't answer this very good question.

I have to wonder, if Lily was popular and had lots of friends in Hogwarts why did none of them ever try to get in touch with Harry at any point in his life?

I'm not sure why Lily's friends would enter Harry's life after he'd been gone from the wizarding world for 10 years; not to mention the fact that Lily and James were both murdered, and Harry was sent to live in the muggle world for his own protection, and those circumstances would not have allowed for any meaningful interaction. Some may have died in the war just as Lily did. And as Harry was only 18 months old when effectively exiled from the magical world, I don't think it would have been a natural course for Lily's friends to enter Harry's life once he entered school; they'd be like strangers to each other.

Didn't stop Remus and Sirius. And wouldn't Harry have a GodMOTHER too? I'd think if Lily's friends were real friends, they'd want to see the son of their murdered close friend (whom they'd have wanted to see anyways, if Lily had lived) once they could.

The odds of all of Lily's close friends getting killed in the war is rather slim as well seeing how all of James' close friends survived one way or another (until they met Harry, of course).

It's possible Lily was friends with a large group of people, but wasn't close with anyone in particular, enough to be Maid of Honour or Godmother to Harry. She was said to be popular, but popular != having lots of strong friendships.

I think Lily ended up closest to James's friends in the end, judging by her letter to Sirius.

Didn't stop Remus and Sirius. And wouldn't Harry have a GodMOTHER too? I'd think if Lily's friends were real friends, they'd want to see the son of their murdered close friend (whom they'd have wanted to see anyways, if Lily had lived) once they could.

The odds of all of Lily's close friends getting killed in the war is rather slim as well seeing how all of James' close friends survived one way or another (until they met Harry, of course).

Sirius was in prison till PoA and that was also the first time Remus ever had contact with Harry. Even after that Remus didn't seem to keep in touch with Harry. Sirius did the best he could, all things considered.

Harry definitely didn't have a godmother; JKR says it was because the christening was a hurried thing, apparently without time to contact one of Lily's girl friends.

Off-topic, but I DID think it was strange how neither Harry nor Remus put much effort into staying in touch. For someone who wanted to know about his parents, Harry didn't really put much effort into it.

It's possible Lily was friends with a large group of people, but wasn't close with anyone in particular, enough to be Maid of Honour or Godmother to Harry. She was said to be popular, but popular != having lots of strong friendships.

I think Lily ended up closest to James's friends in the end, judging by her letter to Sirius.

Well as Voldemort was doing a real good job of murdering his opposition and the targetted Muggleborns, there's a real good chance that Lily's friends didn't make it through the first war

Well as Voldemort was doing a real good job of murdering his opposition and the targetted Muggleborns, there's a real good chance that Lily's friends didn't make it through the first war

Are Lily's friends all muggle-born? We know there are Gryffindor pure-bloods in Harry's time; i.e., the Weasleys, so there must be some during Lily's generation.

It's possible Lily was friends with a large group of people, but wasn't close with anyone in particular, enough to be Maid of Honour or Godmother to Harry. She was said to be popular, but popular != having lots of strong friendships.

I agree. I think she probably was friendly with many people, but had only a few really close friends. They may well have been dead by the time Lily was married and had her child, as the Wizarding World was years into the first war at that point. If they thought along the lines of Lily, I think they would have opposed Voldemort and perhaps joined the Order, two dangerous things to do.

I think Lily ended up closest to James's friends in the end, judging by her letter to Sirius.

Between wanting Sirius as Harry's godfather and wanting Sirius for Secret Keeper, and that letter, I think Sirius was Lily's closest friend during the latter years of her short life.

Are Lily's friends all muggle-born? We know there are Gryffindor pure-bloods in Harry's time; i.e., the Weasleys, so there must be some during Lily's generation.

James and Sirius are both Purebloods, so there were clearly Purebloods in Gryffindor.

There's really no indication that Lily limited her circle of friends either to Gryffindor or to Muggleborns.

James and Sirius are both Purebloods, so there were clearly Purebloods in Gryffindor.

There's really no indication that Lily limited her circle of friends either to Gryffindor or to Muggleborns.

Good Lord, how could I forget Potter and Black??? :relax:

A bit much, that all of James' close friends all survived the first war (maybe not in the best of ways...) but all of Lily's died?

Then again, it's most likely for JK's whole "Isolate Harry" thing by killing off all his family except Petunia and then killing all of Lily's friends, and have the only free friend of James (Remus) never try to contact Harry until PoA gets them together by coincidence.

A bit much, that all of James' close friends all survived the first war (maybe not in the best of ways...) but all of Lily's died?

Then again, it's most likely for JK's whole "Isolate Harry" thing by killing off all his family except Petunia and then killing all of Lily's friends, and have the only free friend of James (Remus) never try to contact Harry until PoA gets them together by coincidence.

But we're not told Lily's girl friends are killed off; they just seem to disappear after she hooks up with James . . .

A bit much, that all of James' close friends all survived the first war (maybe not in the best of ways...) but all of Lily's died?

If it is a small group of people. it's not so statistically improbable.

But we're not told Lily's girl friends are killed off;

We don't know what happened to them. Just that by the time she had Harry, there was not anyone she would choose as godmother.

they just seem to disappear after she hooks up with James . . .

No. We don't see much of Lily in Seventh year when she started dating James, or the years where she joined the Order, fought Voldemort and Death Eaters, Married, and had Harry to make it possible to mark her friends' disappearance with James's appearance. The remarkable events of those years included war and murders, and the first time readers are shown that Lily has no close friends left from her early years is when no godmother is chosen for Harry, which is several wartorn years after hooking up with James.

It appears at that point in time that Sirius is Lily's most trusted friend.

Perhaps it's a combo of her friends all being dead, as well as sensing kinship with James (whose parents would be dead by now, along with Lily's) over lost loved ones that helped bring them together?

If it is a small group of people. it's not so statistically improbable.



We don't know what happened to them. Just that by the time she had Harry, there was not anyone she would choose as godmother.



No. We don't see much of Lily in Seventh year when she started dating James, or the years where she joined the Order, fought Voldemort and Death Eaters, Married, and had Harry to make it possible to mark her friends' disappearance with James's appearance. The remarkable events of those years included war and murders, and the first time readers are shown that Lily has no close friends left from her early years is when no godmother is chosen for Harry, which is several wartorn years after hooking up with James.

It appears at that point in time that Sirius is Lily's most trusted friend.

That's a good point, and wasn't Lily in hiding when Harry was born, not the best time to have a social thing. I seem to recall Rowling stating that both her wedding and the Christening were low key things because of the danger.

Hey everyone, I'm new but I've been reading posts on COS for a while and finally decided to join since I wanted to share my opinions too.

I always imagine Marlene McKinnon as a friend of Lily's since she was in the Order and when she and her family were killed Lily told Sirius in the letter that she cried for a week...or something like that. Furthermore, my view of her as a friend became clearer in my head through fanfiction where Lily's friends tend to be Marlene, Alice Longbottom, Mary McDonald, Hestia Jones, Dorcas Meadows and Emmalline Vance. Those are some of the people mentioned in the Order that could have been her friends. The only ones that cannon has Lily herself mention were Mary McDonald when speaking to Snape and Marlene McKinnon in the letter. However, I think if Mary was a friend Lily would have said Mary alone and not her entire name. I'm not not sure if the Longbottoms were in Lily's year but I think they would have been a few years older as they were Aurors and it takes some time to train to be an Auror. I wish Lily and James' jobs were mentioned but I don't think they were Aurors but probably training to be ones. Also, in cannon its said James was unemployed.

I think that Dumbledore did not want Harry to have much contact with the Wizarding World and would probably ask people who wanted to see Harry to stay away. People knew he was with muggles but they did not know exactly where. They would probably ask Dumbledore for an address and he would have told them otherwise. Remus could have been one to ask. Why he waited till third year to meet Harry I don't know. He was probably busy trying to get a job and being a werewolf would have also taken a toll on him.

Hagrid mentioned in PS/SS that he got photos from James and Lily's friends. Some would have come from Lily's friends since James seem to only have the tight circle as friends IE Marauders and the wedding photos would probably come from Remus since the wedding was low key. He must have been invited. They trusted him. The Secret Keeper thing happened later on. Also, it was Sirius who distrusted him and convinced James and Lily to switch to Peter. And now I'm straying...

Anyway I think some of Lily's friends were probably alive. Possibly one or two, if she had a few close friends.

=cool_chick_div;6036372]Hey everyone, I'm new but I've been reading posts on COS for a while and finally decided to join since I wanted to share my opinions too.

I always imagine Marlene McKinnon as a friend of Lily's since she was in the Order and when she and her family were killed Lily told Sirius in the letter that she cried for a week...or something like that. Furthermore, my view of her as a friend became clearer in my head through fanfiction where Lily's friends tend to be Marlene, Alice Longbottom, Mary McDonald, Hestia Jones, Dorcas Meadows and Emmalline Vance. Those are some of the people mentioned in the Order that could have been her friends. The only ones that cannon has Lily herself mention were Mary McDonald when speaking to Snape and Marlene McKinnon in the letter. However, I think if Mary was a friend Lily would have said Mary alone and not her entire name. I'm not not sure if the Longbottoms were in Lily's year but I think they would have been a few years older as they were Aurors and it takes some time to train to be an Auror. I wish Lily and James' jobs were mentioned but I don't think they were Aurors but probably training to be ones. Also, in cannon its said James was unemployed.

James wasn't unemployed, he worked full time for the Order, Lily worked with him till she got to be too pregnant to work. James didn't need to work but he was very generous with his money. He supported both Sirius and Remus at one time or another.

I think that Dumbledore did not want Harry to have much contact with the Wizarding World and would probably ask people who wanted to see Harry to stay away. People knew he was with muggles but they did not know exactly where. They would probably ask Dumbledore for an address and he would have told them otherwise. Remus could have been one to ask. Why he waited till third year to meet Harry I don't know. He was probably busy trying to get a job and being a werewolf would have also taken a toll on him.

I kind of think this is prett accurate. Dumbledore did not advertise where Harry was. He was all too aware that there were still DeathEaters like Lucius Malfoy about who would want the chld dead.


Hagrid mentioned in PS/SS that he got photos from James and Lily's friends. Some would have come from Lily's friends since James seem to only have the tight circle as friends IE Marauders and the wedding photos would probably come from Remus since the wedding was low key. He must have been invited. They trusted him. The Secret Keeper thing happened later on. Also, it was Sirius who distrusted him and convinced James and Lily to switch to Peter. And now I'm straying...

Anyway I think some of Lily's friends were probably alive. Possibly one or two, if she had a few close friends.

I think there were probably a lot of people who knew the Potters and were friends with them around. All the tributes on their memorial tell us that.

Ofcourse, they worked for the Order. Can't believe I forgot that. I was thinking more outside the Order business like an Auror or Healer where you'd get paid. But I think if there wasn't a war James and Lily would want to be Aurors since they seem to want to make a difference. After all, they joined the Order full time and wanted to help as much as possible. they seemed like the kind of people who's want to be Aurors lik Harry did.

Lily's wand was made of willow. On Pottermore, it is said the owners of the willow wand tend to insecure. Ron had a willow wand. What do you think about that?

Lily's wand was made of willow. On Pottermore, it is said the owners of the willow wand tend to insecure. Ron had a willow wand. What do you think about that?

We kind of see a sign of insecurity in the memory where she is asking young Snape about the Dementors coming for her if she uses magic outside of school. It makes you wonder what slant young Snape put on the things he was telling her about the Magic world. Why did he mention Dementors in the first place? This could be a way of Rowling telling us that Lily's insecurities were fed by young Severus. That he just might have been fostering these insecurities to keep her dependant on him. Probably doing it unconsciously.

If you wish to discuss Snape's behaviour, please do it on the Snape thread, not here.

We kind of see a sign of insecurity in the memory where she is asking young Snape about the Dementors coming for her if she uses magic outside of school. It makes you wonder what slant young Snape put on the things he was telling her about the Magic world. Why did he mention Dementors in the first place? This could be a way of Rowling telling us that Lily's insecurities were fed by young Severus. That he just might have been fostering these insecurities to keep her dependant on him. Probably doing it unconsciously.

Responded to on the Snape thread.

I'm not sure why Lily's friends would enter Harry's life after he'd been gone from the wizarding world for 10 years; not to mention the fact that Lily and James were both murdered, and Harry was sent to live in the muggle world for his own protection, and those circumstances would not have allowed for any meaningful interaction. Some may have died in the war just as Lily did. And as Harry was only 18 months old when effectively exiled from the magical world, I don't think it would have been a natural course for Lily's friends to enter Harry's life once he entered school; they'd be like strangers to each other.

I agree with this. I had very close friends in high school, a very tight knit group of friends, in fact, who, over the intervening years in college and then getting jobs and moving away for work I have fell out of contact with. If one of them had died with a young child it would feel very presumptuous to me to go seeking out their children years later just to say "Hey, I knew your mom years before you were born!" It would be pretty awkward.

No to mention the fact that while I don't think Lily's friends all died, they very well could have moved away for work and since the Potters had to go into a kind of exile with minimal contact while Voldemort was after them I imagine it would have been pretty difficult for Lily to keep up contact with lots of friends.

There's also the simple explanation that Lily's friends bore no import to the plot of any of the stories whereas Lupin became the DADA teacher, Sirius played a significant part in two books (as the manman hunting hair in POA and the bait luring Harry out from Hogwarts in OOTP) and Peter was the betrayer that ultimately caused James and Lily's death... It makes a certain amount of sense to me that Lily's friends are kept out of the story. I'm sure they're out there.

Lily's wand was made of willow. On Pottermore, it is said the owners of the willow wand tend to insecure. Ron had a willow wand. What do you think about that?

I, personally, attribute many insecurities to Lily. Being the younger sister to a very Alpha older sister who called me names and beat up on me pretty good, I know what it's like to hear yourself called certain things enough to the point where you begin to believe it. I, personally, think that Petunia might have done enough damage in calling Lily a freak that Lily, when she went off to Hogwarts, might have begun to believe it - only to have that believe partly reinforced by the pureblood crazies who would have continued to call her names and point out that she's different when all she wants to do is fit in.

I've heard somewhere that no matter how many good or favorable things you hear about yourself, the negative things are the ones that stick with you (and I know this to be true in my case). No matter how often her friends would have told her that she fit in and that there was nothing wrong with her or that she was no different, I can see her still struggling with the idea that maybe she is a freak. She would know imperically that she wasn't, would know that she was just as capable as everyone else and perhaps more capable in some areas, but there would always be that question in her mind, that nagging voice still calling her a freak.

I can definitely see that as an insecurity Lily would have.

However, I think if Mary was a friend Lily would have said Mary alone and not her entire name.

Maybe not - Harry has also specified Ron Weasley and Hermione Granger, if he's speaking to someone outside of their group - even speaking to Dumbledore he has said something like "Hermione Granger told me you can't apparate inside Hogwarts" -even though Dumbledore knows perfectly well who Hermione is. Mary was a friend of Lily's, but not of Snape's, so I see no reason why she wouldn't specify Mary McDonald.

Hagrid mentioned in PS/SS that he got photos from James and Lily's friends. Some would have come from Lily's friends since James seem to only have the tight circle as friends IE Marauders and the wedding photos would probably come from Remus since the wedding was low key. He must have been invited. They trusted him. The Secret Keeper thing happened later on. Also, it was Sirius who distrusted him and convinced James and Lily to switch to Peter. And now I'm straying...

Well there were the Marauders, but James would also have had friends on the Quidditch team, as Harry did. Not as close as their respective smaller circles, but still, friends. James' Quidditch team-mates could also have been a source of photos.


Lily's wand was made of willow. On Pottermore, it is said the owners of the willow wand tend to insecure. Ron had a willow wand. What do you think about that?

Interesting observation, well spotted! :tu: I think it's quite possible that Lily had insecurities. As GoddessClio has pointed out, she faced a lot of negativity and people looking down on her. At home, she had a sister who looked down on her for being magical, (while it was jealousy, Petunia's behaviour presented itself as disdain for magic). At Hogwarts, she faced bigots who looked down on her for being Muggleborn -all the while knowing that a group of said bigots were out there murdering Muggleborns. I think that kind of thing would have impacted on her sense of self. However, Lily was eventually strong enough to say no. To say that she was not inferior and that she did not deserve to be looked down on and considered a mudblood. She had the strength to stand and fight against such bigotry - to the extent of thrice defying Voldemort - rather than cowering and meekly accepting or believing it.

No to mention the fact that while I don't think Lily's friends all died, they very well could have moved away for work and since the Potters had to go into a kind of exile with minimal contact while Voldemort was after them I imagine it would have been pretty difficult for Lily to keep up contact with lots of friends.

I don't think all of Lily's friends died. However, I do think that at least some of them were murdered in the first war. The Death Eaters held the wizarding world to ransom, and were murdering many people - casting the Dark Mark where they killed to advertise their crimes. Lily's friends would have her opposition to Voldemort and the Death Eaters, whether or not they joined the Order. Anyone who wasn't a DE or a DE sympathiser was in danger from them. I find it very likely that at least some of Lily's friends were killed in the first war. It's also possible that they left the country, as people tried to do during the second war. Or yes, they grew apart.

I've heard somewhere that no matter how many good or favorable things you hear about yourself, the negative things are the ones that stick with you (and I know this to be true in my case). No matter how often her friends would have told her that she fit in and that there was nothing wrong with her or that she was no different, I can see her still struggling with the idea that maybe she is a freak. She would know imperically that she wasn't, would know that she was just as capable as everyone else and perhaps more capable in some areas, but there would always be that question in her mind, that nagging voice still calling her a freak.

I think that eventually, Lily did accept that her friends were right - that there was nothing wrong with her, and that the blood fanatics were the ones in the wrong. If she had not realised and accepted that, she would not have stood up for herself. She would tolerated being called a mudblood if she believed that there was something wrong with her and the bigots were right.

She was only 20 when she died, right? A bit sudden for her and her friends to have drifted apart so relatively soon after school. Unless of course they did leave the country or die. Or they drifted apart during school.

Maybe not - Harry has also specified Ron Weasley and Hermione Granger, if he's speaking to someone outside of their group - even speaking to Dumbledore he has said something like "Hermione Granger told me you can't apparate inside Hogwarts" -even though Dumbledore knows perfectly well who Hermione is. Mary was a friend of Lily's, but not of Snape's, so I see no reason why she wouldn't specify Mary McDonald.

Especially, also, if there was more than one Mary in their year at school, mentioning the last name would distinguish which Mary Lily was referring to... Just a possibility.

Well there were the Marauders, but James would also have had friends on the Quidditch team, as Harry did. Not as close as their respective smaller circles, but still, friends. James' Quidditch team-mates could also have been a source of photos.

Agreed. Hagrid wouldn't necessarily have had to go out to James and Lily's best friends for photos, he could conceivably gone to virtually anyone in their year who might have had photos, members of the quidditch teams, members of any clubs they participated in, other Gryffindor house members during that time in the year above or below them... The closer the friend the better chance of getting good photos but in that album there also seemed to be some group shots, not just individuals.

I don't think all of Lily's friends died. However, I do think that at least some of them were murdered in the first war. The Death Eaters held the wizarding world to ransom, and were murdering many people - casting the Dark Mark where they killed to advertise their crimes. Lily's friends would have her opposition to Voldemort and the Death Eaters, whether or not they joined the Order. Anyone who wasn't a DE or a DE sympathiser was in danger from them. I find it very likely that at least some of Lily's friends were killed in the first war. It's also possible that they left the country, as people tried to do during the second war. Or yes, they grew apart.

Wasn't meaning to say that all of Lily's friends died or that none of them died, just pointing out that there are lots of reasons for them to not be in the picture anymore by the time Harry turns 11 and goes to Hogwarts. I agree that Lily would most likely have made friends with people who would have been vocal about standing up to Voldemort.

I think that eventually, Lily did accept that her friends were right - that there was nothing wrong with her, and that the blood fanatics were the ones in the wrong. If she had not realised and accepted that, she would not have stood up for herself. She would tolerated being called a mudblood if she believed that there was something wrong with her and the bigots were right.

Without going into too many personal details I'll just point out that imperically one can know that what one is told as a child or young adult isn't true but depending on the frequency with which the sentiment was repeated coupled with the personal strength of the victim of the verbal attack it can still haunt the victim for years and years afterwards.

For instance, as a kid and a teenager I got a pretty good haranguing from my sister about me being ugly and having a big nose. I know that I am not "ugly" and I know that my nose, while bigger than hers, is certainly not enormous I am still very insecure about both of those subject. I know both of these things are completely silly things to worry about but because of the years of torment I went through being teased about them I can't completely rid myself of the insecurity.

I think Lily's possible insecurities about fitting in or being a freak would be similar. She would know that she has no reason to worry about fitting in by the time she's in her fifth year but because Petunia was (possibly) relentless about making sure Lily knew she was a freak and then follow that up with years of DE Slytherins taking every opportunity to point out her differences and her flaws she'll likely never be entirely rid of that insecurity.

She was only 20 when she died, right? A bit sudden for her and her friends to have drifted apart so relatively soon after school. Unless of course they did leave the country or die. Or they drifted apart during school.

Not necessarily. Lily left school and almost immediately became a wife and mother, something that her fellow 20-year-old friends might not have really understood. Lily entered into a life of life-and-death situations working for the Order and then had to go into hiding once she and her family became targets of Voldemort, both of which her fellow 20-year-old friends probably wouldn't have had much experience with unless they, too, entered the Order or possibly the Aurors or Magical Law Enforcement.

Again, without getting too personal, when I and my high school friends all moved away for college we pretty quickly lost touch and we were pretty tight. But differences in locale, differences in experiences and the kinds of new friends you make really can impact how quickly you lose touch with people. Lily's life after school was very adult and very scary; perhaps she lost touch with some of her friends simply because they decided to take that foreign correspondent job with the Prophet and moved away, or because they found Lily's life of being a mom kind of boring and they were having fun being young and single and their life experiences were no longer similar, or because they didn't like hanging around the old, crusty Order members Lily now counted as friends, or because they had the fatalistic mindset that if the world was going to **** they were going to party until the ceiling fell in on them rather than attempt to change something that had too much momentum to change...

As stated above, there are lots of reasons for Lily's friends to not be in the picture anymore.

Kind of sad though, that James' friends were such a more closely knit group that they did stay together through the war (well, until the end...) whereas Lily's all died/drifted apart/whatever else happened.

Kind of sad though, that James' friends were such a more closely knit group that they did stay together through the war (well, until the end...) whereas Lily's all died/drifted apart/whatever else happened.

I think that Lily's friends were not important to the plot so that's why J.K Rowling didn't include them, even if she still did have friends after school/the war.
Some the Order members might have been her friends and she could also have had some of the same friends as James (like the Marauders).

Without going into too many personal details I'll just point out that imperically one can know that what one is told as a child or young adult isn't true but depending on the frequency with which the sentiment was repeated coupled with the personal strength of the victim of the verbal attack it can still haunt the victim for years and years afterwards.

I think you make a good point that Lily may have continued to struggle with insecurities. However, she was able to overcome them to some extent. She refused to let people put her down because of her blood - she refused to have people like that in her life. This suggests to me that she knew that the bigots were wrong and that her blood was irrelevant to anyone worth her time. Even though it may well have been something she continued to have insecurities about. On some level, she was able to say "no, this is wrong, I am not inferior because of my blood and I don't deserve to be treated as inferior". I think it's one of those things that she would have known rationally and logically, but would have a hard time realising and accepting on a deeper level.

Lily had worries about being Muggleborn even before she went to Hogwarts, and once there, she would have been confronted with the war, where Muggles and Muggleborns were fair game for murdering thugs, and where she was exposed to miniature Death Eaters calling her a mudblood.


Not necessarily. Lily left school and almost immediately became a wife and mother, something that her fellow 20-year-old friends might not have really understood. Lily entered into a life of life-and-death situations working for the Order and then had to go into hiding once she and her family became targets of Voldemort, both of which her fellow 20-year-old friends probably wouldn't have had much experience with unless they, too, entered the Order or possibly the Aurors or Magical Law Enforcement.

I think they would all have had experience of living in fear for their lives, as the whole wizarding world was in that situation. Not just the Order, as the DEs murdered for fun. Lily's friends can't have been blind to the horrific situation - the whole of wizarding Britain feared for their lives. Even if they weren't in the Order, they would know the fear of the Dark Mark, the fear of Voldemort and co., the fear of losing a loved one to them.

Again, without getting too personal, when I and my high school friends all moved away for college we pretty quickly lost touch and we were pretty tight. But differences in locale, differences in experiences and the kinds of new friends you make really can impact how quickly you lose touch with people.

While I know what that is like, and it's common in the real world, the wizarding world is so small and insular that I think it is much easier to stay in touch with old school friends/ harder to lose touch with school friends.

Lily's life after school was very adult and very scary; perhaps she lost touch with some of her friends simply because they decided to take that foreign correspondent job with the Prophet and moved away, or because they found Lily's life of being a mom kind of boring and they were having fun being young and single and their life experiences were no longer similar, or because they didn't like hanging around the old, crusty Order members Lily now counted as friends, or because they had the fatalistic mindset that if the world was going to **** they were going to party until the ceiling fell in on them rather than attempt to change something that had too much momentum to change...

I'm not sure if too many people were having fun at the time, apart from Death Eaters. The wizarding community were living in fear, not knowing who among them was a Death Eater, not knowing if they would come home to find the Dark Mark floating above their home, not knowing if they would make it home when they left the house. I imagine it being rather similar to the dreary and somewhat abandoned atmosphere Diagon Alley in HBP.

I think you make a good point that Lily may have continued to struggle with insecurities. However, she was able to overcome them to some extent. She refused to let people put her down because of her blood - she refused to have people like that in her life. This suggests to me that she knew that the bigots were wrong and that her blood was irrelevant to anyone worth her time. Even though it may well have been something she continued to have insecurities about. On some level, she was able to say "no, this is wrong, I am not inferior because of my blood and I don't deserve to be treated as inferior". I think it's one of those things that she would have known rationally and logically, but would have a hard time realising and accepting on a deeper level.

Lily had worries about being Muggleborn even before she went to Hogwarts, and once there, she would have been confronted with the war, where Muggles and Muggleborns were fair game for murdering thugs, and where she was exposed to miniature Death Eaters calling her a mudblood.
Actually, I think Lily put aside those insecurities once she was well established in Hogwarts as an excellent student, a Prefect and Head Girl. She was very popular both with the teachers (Slughorn in particular doted on her) and with the other students. She was always surrounded by a group of friends, and I'm sure James wasn't the only guy (besides Snape) who found her attractive.

The DEs were targeting everyone, including Purebloods though of course Muggles were easy game. Not so Muggleborns who were powerful witches or wizards, they were not an easy mark - they were just as tough to fight as any Pureblood.

I also think that that "Mudblood" insult particularly rankled coming from Snape, who was her friend, who had told her that being Muggleborn didn't matter, and who she was trying to help. No wonder she didn't accept his apology and didn't forgive him. JMO.

I think you make a good point that Lily may have continued to struggle with insecurities. However, she was able to overcome them to some extent.

I agree that Lily seems to have been able to overcome her insecurities to some extent (to some extent I have been able to overcome mine, but they crop up again at sometime strange and inopportune times), but I also think that depending on how deeply those insecurities cut her she may never be able to completely overthrow them. While she might be able to turn them around and use them as her fuel to stand up to the young DEs at Hogwarts and use them to strengthen herself and her own resolve, there are always cinques in any suit armour and sooner or later Lily's soft would be found and poked again.

I think they would all have had experience of living in fear for their lives, as the whole wizarding world was in that situation. Not just the Order, as the DEs murdered for fun. Lily's friends can't have been blind to the horrific situation - the whole of wizarding Britain feared for their lives. Even if they weren't in the Order, they would know the fear of the Dark Mark, the fear of Voldemort and co., the fear of losing a loved one to them.

Living in general fear for your life from a lunatic like Voldemort and his Death Eaters is very different, though, from being actively involved in a resistance movement against them. Yes, everyone in the WW was at some risk because of Voldemort and gang but Lily and the other Order members weren't just generally at risk, they were specifically stamping their names on Voldemort's/the Death Eater's wanted list, they would have been high priority targets. It's the difference between being an ordinary citizen in a city riddled with extreme terrorist violence and being a police officer in the terrorist unit in the same city; the citizen is generally scared for their life and the lives of their families, worrying about being attacked if they go to the grocery store, the police officer is actively engaged in trying to stop the terrorists and is much more likely to be a specific target of the terrorists since taking out the police force means they have a free reign over the citizens.

While I know what that is like, and it's common in the real world, the wizarding world is so small and insular that I think it is much easier to stay in touch with old school friends/ harder to lose touch with school friends.

Lily's circle of friends, though, could easily extend beyond just the wizarding world, though. She would always return home during summer breaks and be able to meet up with her muggle friends which could easily double her friend pool depending on how popular and close she was with her muggle friends. This does encounter the same problem of limited shared experiences and long spans of time spent apart but at the same time, 11-13 year olds going to school, whether muggle school or magical school, still share some similar experiences, they can still complain about their teachers, talk about their friends, gab about boys they think are cute... Lily would have to cover up all references to magic to to me it's a managable relationship to maintain when you're young. I think, personally, where people grow apart the most is in their late teens and twenties, before marriage and kids become that shared experience that school used to be, that in-between time when you're off traveling and finding a job you like, falling in and out of love, etc. that's one of the most varying times in a person's life.

I'm not sure if too many people were having fun at the time, apart from Death Eaters. The wizarding community were living in fear, not knowing who among them was a Death Eater, not knowing if they would come home to find the Dark Mark floating above their home, not knowing if they would make it home when they left the house. I imagine it being rather similar to the dreary and somewhat abandoned atmosphere Diagon Alley in HBP.

Personally, that all depends on the personalities of the people we're talking about. Without straying too far from Lily I'll just say that there are the worry-warts out there that will stress over every little thing, let alone a growing gang of terrorists that seem to be taking over their world, and then there are the people who laugh while the world burns as a coping mechanism to hide how scared they really are. There are people who see the apocalypse coming and stockpile canned goods and bottled water and then there are those who blow all their money on one last big hurrah figuring that everyone is going to die anyway, why worry? There are people who watch the riots in the streets through the bars over their windows and there are the people out seizing the opportunity to gather resources while the rioters are busy looting and causing mayhem and looking the other direction. Since we don't know the personalities of any of Lily's friends we can't say for certain what attitude they would have regarding Voldemort's rise.

Actually, I think Lily put aside those insecurities once she was well established in Hogwarts as an excellent student, a Prefect and Head Girl. She was very popular both with the teachers (Slughorn in particular doted on her) and with the other students.

Just because someone tries to put their insecurities aside or tries to use their insecurities to help strengthen themselves that doesn't mean that they are then immune to being hurt by those insecurities. It's not that easy to wake up one day and just decide that everything you're insecure about isn't going to bother you anymore. It takes a lot of time and a lot of personal strength to overcome insecurities.

Continued from the Snape thread:
It seemed that in the magical world Levicorpus was considered a funny prank. When James' used scourgify and put soap bubbles in Snape's mouth I considered that completely out of hand. I'm not trying to reduce how horrible it was but I just think the Levicorpus part wasn't that bad. It wasn't considered horrible back then. It could be funny like with Ron. Maybe that's why Lily almost smiled.

I always thought that Lily almost smiled because she knew who invented Levicorpus (Snape) and found it ironic that he had become a victim of his own invention. I never took her smile as amusement at his predicatment, I took it as a smile of irony. JMO.

I don't feel qualified to comment on WHY Lily almost smiled at James' prank and can believe any of the arguments people have presented, but it's important to remember that it was probably a gut reaction that couldn't be helped. Lily got on with the Marauders in general and there are hints she shares traits in common with Ginny would obviously appreciates good natured fun even when it's at the expense of friends/family. Even Hermione couldn't help but laugh at some of Ron's comments or pranks by the twins even when it was obvious she didn't totally approve of what was being said or done. What's more important to me is that she didn't outright condone James' behavior.

I always thought that Lily almost smiled because she knew who invented Levicorpus (Snape) and found it ironic that he had become a victim of his own invention. I never took her smile as amusement at his predicatment, I took it as a smile of irony. JMO.

I think it's a mixture of this and of the fact that Levicorpus was a huge fad that year, so she'd probably been the victim of it at some point, or even used it on her friends. The irony of Snape's spell being used against him would be tenfold considering how many people ended up using it.

I don't feel qualified to comment on WHY Lily almost smiled at James' prank and can believe any of the arguments people have presented, but it's important to remember that it was probably a gut reaction that couldn't be helped. Lily got on with the Marauders in general and there are hints she shares traits in common with Ginny would obviously appreciates good natured fun even when it's at the expense of friends/family. Even Hermione couldn't help but laugh at some of Ron's comments or pranks by the twins even when it was obvious she didn't totally approve of what was being said or done. What's more important to me is that she didn't outright condone James' behavior.
You make excellent points. I agree totally. :agree:

Lily couldn't help "almost smiling", and it is to her credit that not only didn't she condone James' behavior, she told him off in no uncertain terms and took up Snape's defense. She only turned against Snape when he lashed out at her.

I think it's a mixture of this and of the fact that Levicorpus was a huge fad that year, so she'd probably been the victim of it at some point, or even used it on her friends. The irony of Snape's spell being used against him would be tenfold considering how many people ended up using it.

I agree that Lily would have found that very ironic -especially if Snape had brushed off her disapproval of the spell prior to this.

I honestly don't see Snape as the confirmed 'creator' of Levicorpus. Snape notes it's most effective when used nonverbally to catch the target unawares, but that's about all that's confirmed. And when you think about it, we see James use it in their 5th year in SWM, yet it's written in Snape's N.E.W.T.-level Potions text. It is possible that Snape was so advanced in Potions that he got the 6th year book in his 5th year or earlier, but adding in the way Lupin described its popularity to Harry, I think it likely it was just a wildly popular spell that Snape thought worth noting down. In fact, it's possible that he never even took notice of it until AFTER James used it on him nonverbally.

I honestly don't see Snape as the confirmed 'creator' of Levicorpus. Snape notes it's most effective when used nonverbally to catch the target unawares, but that's about all that's confirmed. And when you think about it, we see James use it in their 5th year in SWM, yet it's written in Snape's N.E.W.T.-level Potions text. It is possible that Snape was so advanced in Potions that he got the 6th year book in his 5th year or earlier, but adding in the way Lupin described its popularity to Harry, I think it likely it was just a wildly popular spell that Snape thought worth noting down. In fact, it's possible that he never even took notice of it until AFTER James used it on him nonverbally.

"You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them – I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you’d turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don’t think so … no!"

Snape claimed it as his own himself.

Ah forgot about that line. Seems I was mistaken, so thanks.

Still odd he'd write it in his 6th year Potions text though.

Ah forgot about that line. Seems I was mistaken, so thanks.

Still odd he'd write it in his 6th year Potions text though.

Replied to in Snape's thread (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=130496&page=39)...

Do you think Lily tried her very best with Petunia? In her letter she doesn't seem bothered that the vase Petunia sent her was broken. Do you think she should have tried harder with Petunia and try to see Petunia's side?

My opinion is that Lily definitely gave her relationship with Petunia the best shot she could but I'm not entirely sure if she fully understood how Petunia felt. Maybe that's where her effort failed. I think Petunia felt second best and probably needed reassuring that she was special in her own way. Maybe that's what Vernon did. I don't know if Lily tried to reach out to her sister in that way. Maybe, maybe not. Can't say, but I feel bad for them. I'm an only child and I'd like a sibling. Seeing their relationship as doomed makes me sad.

Well, Petunia also never made an effort so I wouldn't blame Lily for giving up on her. i'm sure she hurt Lily and did not want to repair their relationship. But what do you think Lily could have done?

Do you think Lily tried her very best with Petunia? In her letter she doesn't seem bothered that the vase Petunia sent her was broken. Do you think she should have tried harder with Petunia and try to see Petunia's side?

I think she gave her relationship with Petunia the best effort she knew how to give it; she never seemed like the kind of person who would watch her sister struggling with something and just stand by and watch it happen. But that might just be my view of Lily.

Petunia was the one poisoning the relationship, IMO. Not that she was evil or a wholly terrible person, I think her instinct was to push Lily away rather than discuss their issues. Petunia didn't seem like the type who was willing to compromise.

My opinion is that Lily definitely gave her relationship with Petunia the best shot she could but I'm not entirely sure if she fully understood how Petunia felt. Maybe that's where her effort failed. I think Petunia felt second best and probably needed reassuring that she was special in her own way. Maybe that's what Vernon did. I don't know if Lily tried to reach out to her sister in that way. Maybe, maybe not. Can't say, but I feel bad for them. I'm an only child and I'd like a sibling. Seeing their relationship as doomed makes me sad.

In my experience, being comforted by the very person who is causing or partially causing your insecurities is just as bad or almost worse than dealing with it on your own. All it would show you is that that person is so great and wonderful that they can not only solve their own problems, they can solve yours, too. Probably not something Petunia wanted.

Do you think Lily tried her very best with Petunia? In her letter she doesn't seem bothered that the vase Petunia sent her was broken. Do you think she should have tried harder with Petunia and try to see Petunia's side?

My opinion is that Lily definitely gave her relationship with Petunia the best shot she could but I'm not entirely sure if she fully understood how Petunia felt. Maybe that's where her effort failed. I think Petunia felt second best and probably needed reassuring that she was special in her own way. Maybe that's what Vernon did. I don't know if Lily tried to reach out to her sister in that way. Maybe, maybe not. Can't say, but I feel bad for them. I'm an only child and I'd like a sibling. Seeing their relationship as doomed makes me sad.

Well, Petunia also never made an effort so I wouldn't blame Lily for giving up on her. i'm sure she hurt Lily and did not want to repair their relationship. But what do you think Lily could have done?
it reminds me of when Severus accidentally hit Petunia with a tree branch and Lily walked away without trying to understand something unfamiliar to her.

I think Lily and Petunia both love very deeply, but both tend to be a bit opinionated, they make decisions too quickly, I think, and often don't change their minds once the decision is made. They seem to prefer to cut ties for the most part, rather than doing the work to empathize and try to understand the other person. Petunia, when she realized she'd never be a witch and would always feel second rate, even though she loved Lily, instead chose to only have a somewhat distant relationship with her sister and immerse herself in the muggle world. Lily, whom i think could have done more to reach out to Petunia and try to understand how the world appeared from Petunia's viewpoint, made a small effort but mostly accepted the distant relationship and instead chose to focus her attention elsewhere.

My opinion.

Do you think Lily tried her very best with Petunia? In her letter she doesn't seem bothered that the vase Petunia sent her was broken. Do you think she should have tried harder with Petunia and try to see Petunia's side?

My opinion is that Lily definitely gave her relationship with Petunia the best shot she could but I'm not entirely sure if she fully understood how Petunia felt. Maybe that's where her effort failed. I think Petunia felt second best and probably needed reassuring that she was special in her own way. Maybe that's what Vernon did. I don't know if Lily tried to reach out to her sister in that way. Maybe, maybe not. Can't say, but I feel bad for them. I'm an only child and I'd like a sibling. Seeing their relationship as doomed makes me sad.

Well, Petunia also never made an effort so I wouldn't blame Lily for giving up on her. i'm sure she hurt Lily and did not want to repair their relationship. But what do you think Lily could have done?

Honestly, I don't think there really was anything Lily could do once Petunia became afraid of magic in general and started thinking that witches and wizards were abnormal and dangerous. Of course, a large part of that was due to things like Snape dropping a tree branch on her and injuring her shoulder and convincing Lily they should read Petunia's letter so it's possible that Lily never being friends with Snape - or ending that friendship before such damage occurred to her relationship with her sister - might have prevented Petunia from developing such fear, but we can't really say that with any certainty. That could have helped - or it could have made things even worse.

With the additional information we have gotten from Pottermore, I think it is clear that Lily did continue to try up through her marriage to James. She even wanted Petunia to be part of her wedding and Petunia refused. I think that could have caused Lily to start to give up any hope of being able to have a good relationship with Petunia. However, I wouldn't use her not liking the vase Petunia gave her as a present as evidence of that. I don't always like my sister's presents to me, but that doesn't have anything to do with our relationship or have any negative impact on it. An ugly vase is an ugly vase no matter how much you love the person who gave it to you. I would actually consider it a testament to Lily wanting to have a better relationship with Petunia that she had a vase she considered ugly on display in her home simply because it was a present from her sister.

Do you think Dorcas Meadowes and Emmeline Vance were at school at the same time that Lily? Or they were too old? I think it's strange that only James 's friends were in the order so maybe Dorcas was one of her friend? Or Emmeline?

[QUOTE=meesha1971;6042919]Honestly, I don't think there really was anything Lily could do once Petunia became afraid of magic in general and started thinking that witches and wizards were abnormal and dangerous. Of course, a large part of that was due to things like Snape dropping a tree branch on her and injuring her shoulder and convincing Lily they should read Petunia's letter so it's possible that Lily never being friends with Snape - or ending that friendship before such damage occurred to her relationship with her sister - might have prevented Petunia from developing such fear, but we can't really say that with any certainty. That could have helped - or it could have made things even worse.

I don't think Petunia genuinely though witches and wizards were abnormal and dangerous. At least, not at the beginning. She wrote to Dumbledore to ask if she could attend Hogwarts, too. IMO, the refusal on the grounds that she was not a witch left her resentful, and her statement on the platform that Lily was a freak was pure sour grapes. (It even shows in her rant in the hut in PS/SS) I think that the more Petunia told herself that wizarding folk were abnormal, the more she came to believe it.

With the additional information we have gotten from Pottermore, I think it is clear that Lily did continue to try up through her marriage to James. She even wanted Petunia to be part of her wedding and Petunia refused. I think that could have caused Lily to start to give up any hope of being able to have a good relationship with Petunia.

Yeah, Lily may have started to give up then. I think it was something she would have found hurtful and I think she may have seen just how much Petunia resented her.


However, I wouldn't use her not liking the vase Petunia gave her as a present as evidence of that. I don't always like my sister's presents to me, but that doesn't have anything to do with our relationship or have any negative impact on it. An ugly vase is an ugly vase no matter how much you love the person who gave it to you. I would actually consider it a testament to Lily wanting to have a better relationship with Petunia that she had a vase she considered ugly on display in her home simply because it was a present from her sister.


I agree - not liking the gift simply means that they have different tastes in decor. Lots of people get presents they don't like - it does not mean they have a bad relationship with the gift-giver. And good point about Lily putting the vase on display - she knew Petunia would never visit, and she still put a present she didn't like on display. IMO, it does show that she appreciated it and may even have hoped that all was not lost with Petunia.

Do you think Dorcas Meadowes and Emmeline Vance were at school at the same time that Lily? Or they were too old? I think it's strange that only James 's friends were in the order so maybe Dorcas was one of her friend? Or Emmeline?

It's possible, but we just don't know how old they were. I do like the idea that some of Lily's friends were in the Order, too. And, as a lot of the Order were murdered in the first war, it is possible that some of them were Lily's friends.

I think its been said before that Alice was an Auror and she would have had to go through Auror training before being a famous Auror. So I think she was a couple years older than Lily. I think Lily's friends were in the Order. I think Marlene McKinnon, Mary MacDonald and Dorcas Meadows and Emmeline Vance could have been her friends. She probably had more friends but they were most likely cut off due to the war. Some probably got married and fled. Mrs. Weasley said something like that. It would also explain why James and Lily got married so early.

I think its been said before that Alice was an Auror and she would have had to go through Auror training before being a famous Auror. So I think she was a couple years older than Lily. I think Lily's friends were in the Order. I think Marlene McKinnon, Mary MacDonald and Dorcas Meadows and Emmeline Vance could have been her friends. She probably had more friends but they were most likely cut off due to the war. Some probably got married and fled. Mrs. Weasley said something like that. It would also explain why James and Lily got married so early.

I also thought Alice was an auror but when I was rereading GoF, Dumbledore/Sirius? explains to Harry the Lestrange-Crouch trial scene in the Pensieve and he mentions how Frank was an Auror and the Death Eaters tortured him and his wife but IIRC he doesn't mention that Alice was an auror so I wasn't sure if she was. Maybe it's mentioned elsewhere?

I don't know. Some how I've always been under the impression she was. Thanks for correcting me then.

How do you all think Lily would have reacted to Snape:
1) giving Voldemort the prophecy?
2) asking Voldemort to spare Lily and not James or Harry?
3) becoming a spy for the Oder?
4) bullying Harry?
5) keeping Harry safe?
6) still being in love with Lily after all this time?

I don't know. Some how I've always been under the impression she was. Thanks for correcting me then.

Answered in the Order of the Phoenix Group CA (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=107836) thread, since Alice doesn't have her own CA thread and this discussion sure doesn't belong in Lily's.

How do you all think Lily would have reacted to Snape:
1) giving Voldemort the prophecy?

Betrayal.

2) asking Voldemort to spare Lily and not James or Harry?

Disgust.

3) becoming a spy for the Oder?

Mixed emotions, probably, since she'd still be feeling betrayed that Snape relayed the prophecy to Voldemort and showed a callous disregard for her husband and son. She, IMO, would probably have a hard time trusting Snape after his previous actions.

4) bullying Harry?

Contempt.

5) keeping Harry safe?

Again, mixed emotions. Maybe grudging appreciation but also probably some amount of suspicion.

6) still being in love with Lily after all this time?

I don't know. Pity, maybe.

I always felt Harry got his ability to forgive from Lily since she seems to be kind and compassionate. Maybe she would have forgiven Snape, since he changed.

I don't believe that she would return the love he has for her since she loves James but maybe she might reconcile their friendship.

I always felt Harry got his ability to forgive from Lily since she seems to be kind and compassionate. Maybe she would have forgiven Snape, since he changed.

I don't believe that she would return the love he has for her since she loves James but maybe she might reconcile their friendship.
I'm not too sure about that. She did lash out at Snape in SWM, she wouldn't accept his apologies. Any mother would find it difficult forgiving a teacher who treated her child the way Snape treated Harry.

Though Snape did make up for it, well, maybe Lily would think he balanced the scales, but IMO she wouldn't resume the friendship. She and James would be civil to Severus, but they wouldn't be friends. My opinion.

I always felt Harry got his ability to forgive from Lily since she seems to be kind and compassionate. Maybe she would have forgiven Snape, since he changed.

I don't believe that she would return the love he has for her since she loves James but maybe she might reconcile their friendship.

I don't think something like this is built into out genetic makeup. Lily may very well have forgiven Snape. But forgiveness does not mean that you want to be friends with the person who has wronged you. Snape's hurtful behaviour toward Lily extended far beyond Lily's death. He hurt her son, up front and personal. Now it's true enough that he worked to bring down Voldemort, but that wasn'r a personal thing with Harry. Voledort killed Lily, therefore Voldemort had to be destroyed. Saving Harry was just part of destroying Voldemort, good for Harry but just part of the job for Snape, IMO that is. As for Lily, she loved her family. Her son was the living embodiment of her love for his father. She would have sacrificed anything for her son, she did. Like Lyanna says, Snape personally insulted and bullied her son, I think she probably took it personally as well. I know I would.

Just a reminder that in-depth discussion of Snape's behaviour and choices belongs on the Snape thread, not here.

Though Snape did make up for it, well, maybe Lily would think he balanced the scales

But "balancing the scales" by Snape's mission to help Harry survive if/when Voldemort returns wouldn't give him carte blance on mistreating Harry as a student, picking on him, singling him out, etc. and I don't think Lily would think of that way. It almost seems as though rather than balancing the scales, the one (Snape picking on Harry the way he does) would cancel out the other (intending to keep Harry alive) with the result being that Lily might feel ambivalence towards Snape.

The caveat to this would be whether we're talking about an alternate universe where Lily and James both survived Voldemort's attack on them in their house but was still vanquished in some way by Harry which could result in Snape still being a spy and Lily possibly knowing about it, etc.

In a case like that I could see an argument for Lily and Snape reconcilling their friendship - maybe not resuming it but coming to an understanding about how and why it ended - which could lead to a wholly different treatment of Harry by Snape which would negate any need to "balance out the scales" of treatment and meaning that Lily wouldn't have those reasons to feel animosity towards Snape as an adult for how he treats her son.

(I'm really trying to keep this about Lily but it's hard.)

I don't think something like this is built into out genetic makeup.

Well... I'm no genetics expert and I don't presume to be but to me genetics would be a big factor in the kind of chemistry our bodies have and we would inherit those chemical systems from our parents so it makes sense to me that if Harry inherited, say, Lily's brain chemistry than it's a possibility that his personality would be similar to hers.

For example, psychological problems and psychiatric disorders (depression, clinical paranoia etc.) all have to do with brain chemistry and it has been show that some of these disorders can be, and in some cases have been proven to be, inheritable. Why can't aspects of our personalities be inheritable?

Though Snape did make up for it, well, maybe Lily would think he balanced the scales, but IMO she wouldn't resume the friendship. She and James would be civil to Severus, but they wouldn't be friends. My opinion.

So how would Lily feel about and treat Petunia? His aunt treated Harry far worse than any of his teachers ever did.


For example, psychological problems and psychiatric disorders (depression, clinical paranoia etc.) all have to do with brain chemistry and it has been show that some of these disorders can be, and in some cases have been proven to be, inheritable. Why can't aspects of our personalities be inheritable?

I agree and have seen inheritable personality traits in both humans and animals.

So how would Lily feel about and treat Petunia? His aunt treated Harry far worse than any of his teachers ever did.

Petunia is not in the afterlife yet. But I don't think that Lily would forgive her either. Because they're sisters, she'd greet her politely (probably while looking daggers at her) but that would be the extent of it. Even when they were all still alive, the relationship between the two couples was not exactly affectionate or even cordial. In the afterlife, they'd all keep their distance. My opinion.

Had the situation be reversed, Lily would have been a good surrogate mother to Dudley, he wouldn't have been the spoiled rotten Duddikins he became, but he wouldn't have been mistreated either.

=mirrormere;6046410]So how would Lily feel about and treat Petunia? His aunt treated Harry far worse than any of his teachers ever did.

I've never understood questions like this. What does Petunia's actions have to do with the behaviour of his teachers? Unless there was a conspiracy between Petunia and his teachers? I imagine that Lily would have felt disapoinment with Petunia

I agree and have seen inheritable personality traits in both humans and animals.

I've seen it in some people as well, but I have also seen the opposite. An honorable and truthful person might have a thief and a liar for a child, or the other way round. I'm sure that we all carry genetic markers but I also think that sometimes our pesonalities simply override them. Take what you just posted about Petunia. She was Lily's siter, presumably they had the same genetic markers but Petunia wanted nothing to do with Snape when she first met him and Lily became his best friend. How often do we come across this in families? One sibling will hold a grudge like it's his/her personal badge of honour and the other sibling will simply have better things to do with their time.

I've never understood questions like this. What does Petunia's actions have to do with the behaviour of his teachers? Unless there was a conspiracy between Petunia and his teachers? I imagine that Lily would have felt disapoinment with Petunia
I think Mirrormere's point is how Lily would feel towards anyone who treated Harry badly, and Petunia certainly did that. If it were my son who was treated like that by my sister, I'd be more than "disappointed", I'd be mad as hell.

I've seen it in some people as well, but I have also seen the opposite. An honorable and truthful person might have a thief and a liar for a child, or the other way round. I'm sure that we all carry genetic markers but I also think that sometimes our pesonalities simply override them. Take what you just posted about Petunia. She was Lily's siter, presumably they had the same genetic markers but Petunia wanted nothing to do with Snape when she first met him and Lily became his best friend. How often do we come across this in families? One sibling will hold a grudge like it's his/her personal badge of honour and the other sibling will simply have better things to do with their time.
Good points. Lily and Petunia are sisters, share the same genes, but have entirely different personalities and tastes. Plus, one is a witch, the other has no magic whatsoever.

Petunia wasn't good to Harry so I don't think they would reconcile. I imagine Lily would be hurt that her sister despised magic so much that she took it out on her son. I can't see Lily wanting anything to do with Petunia but it appeared to me that Petunia herself wanted nothing to do with Lily or magic so I agree they would keep their distance.

I've seen it in some people as well, but I have also seen the opposite. An honorable and truthful person might have a thief and a liar for a child, or the other way round. I'm sure that we all carry genetic markers but I also think that sometimes our pesonalities simply override them. Take what you just posted about Petunia. She was Lily's siter, presumably they had the same genetic markers but Petunia wanted nothing to do with Snape when she first met him and Lily became his best friend. How often do we come across this in families? One sibling will hold a grudge like it's his/her personal badge of honour and the other sibling will simply have better things to do with their time.

It's all about the way the genes are put together. The slightest tweak in body chemistry could mean a vastly different personality.

I wasn't saying that all personalities are inherited and that the only way you could have a good personality is by inheriting it from your parents. I think life circumstances and hardships have a lot to do with how your personality develops which, I think, is shown between the many characters in the books.

I don't think something like this is built into out genetic makeup. Lily may very well have forgiven Snape. But forgiveness does not mean that you want to be friends with the person who has wronged you.

That's a good point. Forgiveness does not mean letting someone into your life again. Forgiveness does not mean letting people walk all over you. IMO, forgiveness means letting go of the anger, not being governed by past hurts or resentments. You can forgive someone without letting them back to hurt you again. You can forgive the cheating partner without wanting to start a relationship with them again. You can forgive the person who hurt you without giving them a chance to hurt you again.
Lily may have forgiven Snape before her death. We don't know. But, it doesn't mean she would want to put herself or her family in even more peril by associating with a probable Death Eater.

Lily might forgive Snape in the afterlife for his actions, but that doesn't mean she would want to spend time with him. IMO, Lily would not want to spend time with someone who showed so much venom towards her husband and child. They were the people she loved most, and I don't see her wanting to be around someone who loathed them.

Petunia is not in the afterlife yet. But I don't think that Lily would forgive her either. Because they're sisters, she'd greet her politely (probably while looking daggers at her) but that would be the extent of it. Even when they were all still alive, the relationship between the two couples was not exactly affectionate or even cordial. In the afterlife, they'd all keep their distance. My opinion.

I agree - I don't see Lily wanting to spend much time around people who resented her or her loved ones. I think she would prefer to spend her afterlife with people who were supportive and loving. People who made her happy.

Had the situation be reversed, Lily would have been a good surrogate mother to Dudley, he wouldn't have been the spoiled rotten Duddikins he became, but he wouldn't have been mistreated either.

I think so, too. I think that if the roles were reversed, Lily would have taken good care of Dudley, and raised him as a sibling to her own children. (As I imagine she might have had more children had she survived.)

So how would Lily feel about and treat Petunia? His aunt treated Harry far worse than any of his teachers ever did.

Disappointment I think. I do think however, that there is a chance that they could reconcile if Petunia was willing.

So how would Lily feel about and treat Petunia? His aunt treated Harry far worse than any of his teachers ever did.

I wouldn't go that far. Petunia never tried to kill Harry, mess up with his memory, or torture him with a Punishment Quill (even if she had had one.) Her abuse of Harry was making him work like a slave, half-starve him and say terrible things to him about himself and his parents. Which is bad enough, admittedly. But never life or limb-threatening.

OK, to bring it back on topic: what would Lily's attitude be towards Quirrell, Lockhart, the fake Moody and Umbridge should she encounter them in the afterworld?

I wouldn't go that far. Petunia never tried to kill Harry, mess up with his memory, or torture him with a Punishment Quill (even if she had had one.) Her abuse of Harry was making him work like a slave, half-starve him and say terrible things to him about himself and his parents. Which is bad enough, admittedly. But never life or limb-threatening.

OK, to bring it back on topic: what would Lily's attitude be towards Quirrell, Lockhart, the fake Moody and Umbridge should she encounter them in the afterworld?

Yes, I thought that myself. Pentia didn't try drop Harry from a tower top and she didn't cut him so deep he scarred. That was what his teachers did do. Attempted murder and torture. As far as Lily meeting these particular people in the afterlife, the ones who treated her son so well. Would she stand much of a chance of meeting them where she was, I always thought they would have ended up in slightly warmer climes.

Would she stand much of a chance of meeting them where she was, I always thought they would have ended up in slightly warmer climes.
"slightly warmer climes" :lol:

Yes of course but only if they all end up in the Christian version of heaven and hell. In some fantasy fiction, like Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover series, hell is a freezing place ("in Zandru's coldest hell") and for some people Heaven and Hell are both here on Earth. You are rewarded, or pay for, what you did in a previous life.

So Lily could encounter her son's tormentors in the form of terribly unhappy and destitute people, or reincarnated as maggots or something. If the former, would she be moved to give them some sort of solace? :hmm:

I was reading some other posts on Lily and it was mentinoed of her being a bit self righteous and also full of herself too. What is your opinion?

I don't really agree. I think she was an understanding person. Her willow wand also suggest she harbored insecurities so I don't think she was full of herself either. Maybe she tried to cover it up.

I was reading some other posts on Lily and it was mentinoed of her being a bit self righteous and also full of herself too. What is your opinion?

I don't really agree. I think she was an understanding person. Her willow wand also suggest she harbored insecurities so I don't think she was full of herself either. Maybe she tried to cover it up.

I can see an argument for her being an understanding person with insecurities and being somewhat self-righteous. Those aren't mutually exclusive traits, IMO. It all depends on how you see Lily and interpret what we are shown in the books. Some fans really love her character for standing up for herself and others really don't like her because of "what she did to Snape." It's all dependant on the reader and the world view and values they bring to the books, I think.

I was reading some other posts on Lily and it was mentinoed of her being a bit self righteous and also full of herself too. What is your opinion? I don't think of her as self righteous and full of herself. I don't think we see enough of her to make this claim. We see her in Snape's memories, but I don't think that's enough to really determine this.

The thing is, I'm not even sure anymore we're meant to really analyze Lily's character that deeply. To me, she's more supposed to be an archetype than a real character in and of herself. That's why nearly everyone has nothing but good things to say about her except for ones we're not supposed to take seriously (Petunia).

The thing is, I'm not even sure anymore we're meant to really analyze Lily's character that deeply. To me, she's more supposed to be an archetype than a real character in and of herself. That's why nearly everyone has nothing but good things to say about her except for ones we're not supposed to take seriously (Petunia).

To a certain extent I agree. Lily is almost like the Dursleys in that sense, meaning that the Dursleys, especially in the first books, are overblown, larger than life charicatures of a really bad family for a boy like Harry to have while Lily is something of the overblown polar opposite (being presented as seemingly the perfect girl, the perfect mother, the perfect wife, etc.). At the same time, though, as the books go on, the Durselys, and Lily, become a little less heightened and a little more "real" so I think it's reasonable to analyse Lily as we are doing even though she does seem to be presented as something of an archetype.

I also think that we have to take into consideration the source material for our information about Lily. Snape's memories are about as unbiased a source as we get since we see a "first hand" account of Lily herself and are not simply being told about her years after the fact by someone who was already somewhat predisposed to like her or only share her positive traits because they are sharing details about her with her son. But even Snape's memories are somewhat selective in how Lily is portrayed in a way; we're not seeing, for instance, moments of her just hanging out with friends, we are seeing heightened moments of conflict and intense emotion.

I don't see Lily as perfect. If she was perfect she would have forgiven Snape and not call him Snivellus. Though I understand she was hurt and upset and I agree with her in ending the friendship. But a perfect person would not have done those things. Also her willow wand indicates that she most liekly harboured some insecurity. However, she is the least flawed person in the Harry Potter series. Maybe its because it was her love and sacrifce that helped defeat Voldemort. She had to have some kind of perfection to her character or flaws that were not really big.

So Lily could encounter her son's tormentors in the form of terribly unhappy and destitute people, or reincarnated as maggots or something. If the former, would she be moved to give them some sort of solace? :hmm:

If the latter, would she use them for fishing bait? :p

Seriously, though, I think Lily would be torn in that situation - IMO, her love for her child would always be paramount, no matter what anyone else wanted. However, I think she would have compassion for those who suffered, especially if they had genuine, no-strings-attached remorse for how they behaved.

I was reading some other posts on Lily and it was mentinoed of her being a bit self righteous and also full of herself too. What is your opinion?

I think it's a sad day when a female character is called "self-righteous" for objecting to bigotry and terrorism. For expecting the people in her life to respect her and not throw bigoted epithets at her.

I can see an argument for her being an understanding person with insecurities and being somewhat self-righteous. Those aren't mutually exclusive traits, IMO. It all depends on how you see Lily and interpret what we are shown in the books. Some fans really love her character for standing up for herself and others really don't like her because of "what she did to Snape." It's all dependant on the reader and the world view and values they bring to the books, I think.

I have to wonder about the meaning of "what she did to Snape". Lily ended a friendship with someone who hurled racial abuse at her. Someone who condoned the actions of a terrorist group who were murdering people like her. Lily chose to fight against such evil, rather than turn a blind eye to it. Lily chose to be with someone who made her happy and who was on the same side of the war as her. Why is that all about Snape? Is that doing something to Snape, or is that making decisions for herself, daring to imagine that her feelings and her morals matter? Is she doing something to Snape for daring to imagine that she is not just an extension of some guy?

[QUOTE=cool_chick_div;6047809]I don't see Lily as perfect. If she was perfect she would have forgiven Snape and not call him Snivellus.

We don't know - maybe Lily forgave Snape at some point before her death. However, Lily, I think, would have seen the difference between forgiveness and condoning evil - even if she had forgiven Snape while she was still alive, she would not want him back in her life, knowing what he was. You can forgive someone without letting them back in your life. Forgiveness doesn't mean the person you forgive is magically good or trustworthy. It just means that you have let go of the anger, it does't mean you have become gullible.

IMO, turning a blind eye to evil in that way is not forgiveness. IMO, turning a blind eye to evil like that is not a sign of being "perfect". It's, IMO, closer to being a doormat, incredibly naive, or at worst, an opportunist/mob-wife type.


Though I understand she was hurt and upset and I agree with her in ending the friendship. But a perfect person would not have done those things.

IMO, there is nothing "perfect" about choosing to be friends with a bigoted Death Eater wannabe. I think that Lily made a decision based on her morals -morals which told her that throwing bigoted epithets was wrong. Morals which told her that Voldemort and his Death Eaters were an evil that should not be accepted or condoned. I don't think a perfect person exists, but nor do I think a hypothetical "perfect person" would accept such behaviour and overlook it in the name of friendship. IMO, conscience is one of the most basic requirements for goodness, let alone "perfection".

I have to wonder about the meaning of "what she did to Snape". Lily ended a friendship with someone who hurled racial abuse at her. Someone who condoned the actions of a terrorist group who were murdering people like her. Lily chose to fight against such evil, rather than turn a blind eye to it. Lily chose to be with someone who made her happy and who was on the same side of the war as her. Why is that all about Snape? Is that doing something to Snape, or is that making decisions for herself, daring to imagine that her feelings and her morals matter? Is she doing something to Snape for daring to imagine that she is not just an extension of some guy?

To briefly summarize "the other argument" and explain what I mean when I say "what she did to Snape," there are fans who don't like Lily because, as far as I understand, she didn't accept Snape's apology for calling her a mudblood, she didn't take him back as a friend, she "used" him in a way, she wouldn't let him talk when they argued (the "she steam rolled him!" argument, sort of the "she never let him explain himself!" approach), etc. There also seems to be the eternal argument of Snape appearing to love Lily unconditionally, the insinuation being that Lily didn't love Snape unconditionally in return.

I don't mean to put words into people's mouths (if you're not a Lily-supporter, please share your own reasons for not liking her); these are my impressions of the reasons out there for not liking Lily and these reasons do seem to revolve around the issue that Lily-non-supporters feel like she betrayed Snape, didn't support Snape, didn't love Snape, etc.

For what it's worth, FurryDice, I pretty much agree with you; Lily should be commended, IMO, for ending a relationship that was going bad rather than "sticking it out" and "hoping he changes." I think they are both equally to blame to the failure of their friendship, just to make it clear that I'm not saying Snape is entirely responsible for its end. Lily could have done things differently, to. I also don't think it's wrong at all to put conditions on love. IMO, all love in conditional and anyone who has experienced love that is "unconditional" just hasn't come up against that one condition that would cause you to stop loving the other person. Lily's conditions on love and friendship seem exceedingly reasonable to me. I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who desired to kill people just like my family either. I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who called me the equivalent of a racial epithet either. :shrug:

To briefly summarize "the other argument" and explain what I mean when I say "what she did to Snape," there are fans who don't like Lily because, as far as I understand, she didn't accept Snape's apology for calling her a mudblood, she didn't take him back as a friend, she "used" him in a way, she wouldn't let him talk when they argued (the "she steam rolled him!" argument, sort of the "she never let him explain himself!" approach), etc. There also seems to be the eternal argument of Snape appearing to love Lily unconditionally, the insinuation being that Lily didn't love Snape unconditionally in return.

I don't mean to put words into people's mouths (if you're not a Lily-supporter, please share your own reasons for not liking her); these are my impressions of the reasons out there for not liking Lily and these reasons do seem to revolve around the issue that Lily-non-supporters feel like she betrayed Snape, didn't support Snape, didn't love Snape, etc.

For what it's worth, FurryDice, I pretty much agree with you; Lily should be commended, IMO, for ending a relationship that was going bad rather than "sticking it out" and "hoping he changes." I think they are both equally to blame to the failure of their friendship, just to make it clear that I'm not saying Snape is entirely responsible for its end. Lily could have done things differently, to. I also don't think it's wrong at all to put conditions on love. IMO, all love in conditional and anyone who has experienced love that is "unconditional" just hasn't come up against that one condition that would cause you to stop loving the other person. Lily's conditions on love and friendship seem exceedingly reasonable to me. I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who desired to kill people just like my family either. I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who called me the equivalent of a racial epithet either. :shrug:

That seem reasonable. I also feel there is no such thing as 'unconditional love'. Snape stepped over the line one too many times and it was over with. Also I don't feel that Snape's love was 'unconditional'. An 'unconditional love' would have walked away from Voldemort and his minions for Lily without a backward glance because her conditions wouldn't matter, only she would matter.

I also don't think it's wrong at all to put conditions on love. IMO, all love in conditional and anyone who has experienced love that is "unconditional" just hasn't come up against that one condition that would cause you to stop loving the other person. Lily's conditions on love and friendship seem exceedingly reasonable to me. I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who desired to kill people just like my family either. I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who called me the equivalent of a racial epithet either. :shrug:

I agree with this, too. I think that Lily did not perceive herself as receiving unconditional love from Severus, for the reason you said. From the things she said it seems to me that she felt Severus wanted to support Voldemort more than he wanted to be a real friend to her. So from her perspective, Severus's friendship came with the condition that she be accepting of him wanting to be like the Death Eaters, and overlook his treatment of Muggleborns. Her conditions for the friendship clashed with his conditions for the friendship, and she chose to put the greater value on her convictions-- to have self respect, and to oppose Voldemort and the Death Eaters.

I agree with this, too. I think that Lily did not perceive herself as receiving unconditional love from Severus, for the reason you said. From the things she said it seems to me that she felt Severus wanted to support Voldemort more than he wanted to be a real friend to her. So from her perspective, Severus's friendship came with the condition that she be accepting of him wanting to be like the Death Eaters, and overlook his treatment of Muggleborns. Her conditions for the friendship clashed with his conditions for the friendship, and she chose to put the greater value on her convictions-- to have self respect, and to oppose Voldemort and the Death Eaters.
While I can completely understand her not backing the DE ideology, to me, she gave up on her supposed best friend Severus much too easily. Some times people join groups for all the wrong reasons, but to me, being a compassionate and caring person to your friend means you keep trying to get them to see they're on the wrong path. This is very different from condoning the path itself, I think.

Severus still loved her, even though he did not understand how she saw things and often did not agree with some of her choices.

I also think Lily gave up on her relationship with Petunia much too easily as well. It doesn't mean Petunia was correct - I don't think she was - but I wish Lily had fought to help Petunia realize they were sisters and she loved her and wanted her in her life.

I don't get the impression that she did. I see Lily as the character who walked away, nose in the air, immediately assuming something was meant as an insult (being called a witch) instead of asking questions and finding out what Severus actually meant, and I don't think she changed as a person.

Granted, she was capable of deep love - we saw that with Harry.

All my own opinion.

I have to wonder about the meaning of "what she did to Snape". Lily ended a friendship with someone who hurled racial abuse at her. Someone who condoned the actions of a terrorist group who were murdering people like her. Lily chose to fight against such evil, rather than turn a blind eye to it. Lily chose to be with someone who made her happy and who was on the same side of the war as her. Why is that all about Snape? Is that doing something to Snape, or is that making decisions for herself, daring to imagine that her feelings and her morals matter? Is she doing something to Snape for daring to imagine that she is not just an extension of some guy?

I agree that she was right to strongly oppose Snape's chosen path even though he might have chosen it for the wrong reasons too. I think it's perfectly alright for a character to have strong moral principles and stick with them so I don't see this necessarily as being self righteous. However, Lily's halo is sort of tainted by her involvement with James, the way I see it. Don't get me wrong, they are great as a couple and I understand that James is supposed to have changed. But as a teenager, it was disturbing how much pleasure he took in others' pain and humiliation (read Snape's) and while we were shown Lily telling him off, that somewhat gets overshadowed by her agreeing to date him anyway. Perhaps she believed he had changed but even so, while I agree with her for breaking it off with Snape, I don't see teenage James as much of an improvement. She dated the man who bullied her once best friend and that seems rather strange to me for someone who is often praised for her morals. I wouldn't dream of dating a person who harasses people especially not someone who was once my friend even if the friendship is over. So in my view, that's a rather bizarre behavior from her part.

This is the problem, we keep hearing about James' changing but we never see it. What we DO see is a less than savory person. If we were show James during his mature, more heroic phase then this wouldn't be such a problem.

To briefly summarize "the other argument" and explain what I mean when I say "what she did to Snape," there are fans who don't like Lily because, as far as I understand, she didn't accept Snape's apology for calling her a mudblood, she didn't take him back as a friend, she "used" him in a way, she wouldn't let him talk when they argued (the "she steam rolled him!" argument, sort of the "she never let him explain himself!" approach), etc.

To me, this argument seems to revolve around criticising Lily for having the nerve to think that she had rights, or that her feelings also mattered.

There also seems to be the eternal argument of Snape appearing to love Lily unconditionally, the insinuation being that Lily didn't love Snape unconditionally in return.

Is love ever unconditional? If one says they love a partner unconditionally, are they saying they would stay if their partner abused them, or committed even more horrific crimes? Then, that isn't love, that's something dangerous, foolish and obsessive. Everyone has expectations of people in their life -that isn't unreasonable, it's a basic part of relationships.

I think they are both equally to blame to the failure of their friendship, just to make it clear that I'm not saying Snape is entirely responsible for its end. Lily could have done things differently, to.

I don't see in what way they are equally to blame. Snape associated with racist thugs who considered Lily subhuman. Snape planned to join a group of murdering terrorists. Snape threw the worst epithet in the wizarding world at Lily. Lily? She stood and said no. She said this was not right, that she was not going to put up with racial abuse or condone terrorism. I fail to see how that is something blameworthy. Of course, she could have ignored her morals and condoned everything Snape did. Or been one of those naive fools convinced that "he's going to change". Lily felt that she was more than the extension of some guy, that her feelings mattered too. That she did not exist solely for the purpose of a man's happiness. I don't consider that blameworthy. I consider it strong and principled.

I also don't think it's wrong at all to put conditions on love. IMO, all love in conditional and anyone who has experienced love that is "unconditional" just hasn't come up against that one condition that would cause you to stop loving the other person. Lily's conditions on love and friendship seem exceedingly reasonable to me. I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who desired to kill people just like my family either. I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who called me the equivalent of a racial epithet either. :shrug:

I agree. Most people don't want to be in a relationship with a terrorist. Most non-bigoted people don't wish to be in a relationship with a bigot. Most people don't wish to be in a relationship with someone who throws abuse at them under cover of the old "under pressure and lost control" excuse for abusive behaviour.

I agree with this, too. I think that Lily did not perceive herself as receiving unconditional love from Severus, for the reason you said. From the things she said it seems to me that she felt Severus wanted to support Voldemort more than he wanted to be a real friend to her. So from her perspective, Severus's friendship came with the condition that she be accepting of him wanting to be like the Death Eaters, and overlook his treatment of Muggleborns. Her conditions for the friendship clashed with his conditions for the friendship, and she chose to put the greater value on her convictions-- to have self respect, and to oppose Voldemort and the Death Eaters.

I agree. Lily chose her morals. She was not going to be an Eileen Prince, in an unhappy relationship and not standing up for herself. She was not going to be a Narcissa Malfoy, turning a blind eye to the evil someone close to her was committing. She was not going to be a Wormtail, grateful for the protection of terrorists, at the cost of self-respect and conscience. IMO, Lily is to be commended for that.

While I can completely understand her not backing the DE ideology, to me, she gave up on her supposed best friend Severus much too easily. Some times people join groups for all the wrong reasons, but to me, being a compassionate and caring person to your friend means you keep trying to get them to see they're on the wrong path. This is very different from condoning the path itself, I think.

Lily tried to make Snape see that he was taking the wrong path. He was not interested in her concerns. Lily got out of a toxic friendship - IMO, she is bieng criticised for having the nerve to think that she deserved respect from a so-called friend. There is no good reason for joining something as depraved as the Death Eaters. IMO, being "understanding" in this situation is condoning it, it's being an enabler. Lily refused to do this. She refused to turn a blind eye. She refused to have a prejudiced terrorist in her life.

Severus still loved her, even though he did not understand how she saw things and often did not agree with some of her choices.

Like her choice to completely and utterly oppose Death Eaters. That was something Snape could not understand. And that kind of evil was something Lily could not condone -for anyone. IMO, that's because of conscience.

I also think Lily gave up on her relationship with Petunia much too easily as well. It doesn't mean Petunia was correct - I don't think she was - but I wish Lily had fought to help Petunia realize they were sisters and she loved her and wanted her in her life.

Sometimes a person needs to let go when a relationship has become unhealthy. One can't keep beating their heads against a brick wall. The change had to come from Petunia, and Lily pressing the issue was not going to change it. We don't know what Lily did or did not do - but from Pottermore, we know that she wanted Petunia to be a part of her wedding - Petunia refused.

I don't get the impression that she did. I see Lily as the character who walked away, nose in the air, immediately assuming something was meant as an insult (being called a witch) instead of asking questions and finding out what Severus actually meant, and I don't think she changed as a person.

Why should she assume anything else? She knew nothing whatsoever of the magical world at that point. To Muggle children, witch is a milder version of a rhyming insulting word, and a strange kid had just jumped out of the bushes and called her by this name.

Perhaps she believed he had changed but even so, while I agree with her for breaking it off with Snape, I don't see teenage James as much of an improvement. She dated the man who bullied her once best friend and that seems rather strange to me for someone who is often praised for her morals. I wouldn't dream of dating a person who harasses people especially not someone who was once my friend even if the friendship is over. So in my view, that's a rather bizarre behavior from her part.

Lily chose a man who was ever and always on the same side of the war as her - a minor detail to some, a major detail to Lily. She chose a man with whom she shared values and principles. They shared a common view -that the world would be a better place without Voldemort and his Death Eaters. James changed, and Lily saw that.

This is the problem, we keep hearing about James' changing but we never see it. What we DO see is a less than savory person. If we were show James during his mature, more heroic phase then this wouldn't be such a problem.

We also know that James opposed bigotry - he befriended Sirius, regardless of the Black family reputation - because he saw that Sirius was a good person, despite his twisted family. He continued his friendship with Remus, even though the majority of the wizarding world looked down on and despised werewolves. He was totally and utterly opposed to the bigotry against Muggleborns. He was opposed to Voldemort, from the beginning until the very end. He joined the Order right out of school, and thrice defied Voldemort. He died to protect his family. IMO, it's not surprising we see little of James, as he was murdered before the story starts. However, Lily saw the good in him - IMO, Lily would consider the examples of opposition to bigotry a major plus.

Lily chose a man who was ever and always on the same side of the war as her - a minor detail to some, a major detail to Lily. She chose a man with whom she shared values and principles. They shared a common view -that the world would be a better place without Voldemort and his Death Eaters. James changed, and Lily saw that.

I'm talking about the time they were in school. None of them had got involved in the war by that point and I don't think that Lily considered the war when choosing her dates. My point was that she criticized Snape for using the dark arts but at the same time dated a man who took pleasure in another's suffering. I'm not trying to start a James vs Snape controversy at all, I see this solely as about Lily and her preferences. I don't think she is wrong for dating James but it makes me take her so called principles with a grain of salt. Being a bigot is wrong but so is being a bully, IMO. Regardless of what side of the war the person stands on.

I'm talking about the time they were in school. None of them had got involved in the war by that point and I don't think that Lily considered the war when choosing her dates.

Lily considered the war in choosing who to associate with. She wanted nothing to do with a DE wannabe. I can't imagine her dating someone who may have had leanings towards the Death Eaters. IMO, Lily would only have wanted a boyfriend who was firmly opposed to Voldemort. Everyone in the wizarding world was living in fear for their lives at that point, and I see no way that the war would not be a consideration for Lily. In canon, the war was something Lily had to consider - as it was for almost everyone.

My point was that she criticized Snape for using the dark arts but at the same time dated a man who took pleasure in another's suffering. I'm not trying to start a James vs Snape controversy at all, I see this solely as about Lily and her preferences. I don't think she is wrong for dating James but it makes me take her so called principles with a grain of salt. Being a bigot is wrong but so is being a bully, IMO. Regardless of what side of the war the person stands on.

IMO, Lily had a sense of perspective. I think she saw that there was a vast difference between being a brat in school and being a racist wannabe terrorist.
IMO, Lily saw a rivalry between James and Snape. She saw seven years of interaction, the reader did not.
Like that between Harry and Malfoy - suppose one took their whole view of the Harry v Malfoy rivalry from that scene at the end of GoF where Malfoy and his minions ended up cursed silly.

While I can completely understand her not backing the DE ideology, to me, she gave up on her supposed best friend Severus much too easily. Some times people join groups for all the wrong reasons, but to me, being a compassionate and caring person to your friend means you keep trying to get them to see they're on the wrong path. This is very different from condoning the path itself, I think.

IMO, the memories we were shown, especially the two older hogwarts memories, showed that Lily and Snape didn't have a perfect friendship that was only spoiled by Snape's association with Mulciber and Avery, I think they showed that Snape and Lily had a hard time communicating with each other in a manner that was respectful and wouldn't devolve into an argument which would put both of them on the defensive and lead to even more problems. Bad communication, IMO, is a symptom of problems in any kind of relationship and I think there was a lot more going on that we didn't see that contributed to Lily "giving up" on Snape. As said by many others many times before, I look at the mudblood incident in SWM as the straw that broke the camel's back not the whole entire reason for Lily to end the relationship. I don't view the end of Lily and Snape's friendship as Lily "giving up on Snape too easily," afterall, we're not shown very much of their friendship in Hogwarts, we have four memories total of that time period and one of them is their sorting. We saw a grand total of about ten minutes of their friendship which lasted at least five years, most probably more like six or seven.

Severus still loved her, even though he did not understand how she saw things and often did not agree with some of her choices.

I'm not disputing the fact that Snape loved Lily. But does that mean that she is obliged to love him in return? No.

I also think Lily gave up on her relationship with Petunia much too easily as well. It doesn't mean Petunia was correct - I don't think she was - but I wish Lily had fought to help Petunia realize they were sisters and she loved her and wanted her in her life.

I don't think we know enough about their relationship to say who gave up on whom and to pass judgement on whether they gave up too easily. In canon (the books) we see Lily and Petunia as children (Lily at age 11 off to Hogwarts, Petunia a little older) and then... nothing, chronologically, until PS/SS opens with Uncle Vernon and we are introduced to Petunia whose sister has been dead for ten years. On Pottermore we've learned that Petunia didn't want Lily to be apart of her wedding (which seems to me to suggest that it was Petunia who was instigating the bad blood between them) and that Lily wanted Petunia to come to her wedding but Petunia refused. We also see that Lily displayed the ugly vase Petunia sent her for Christmas despite it being ugly suggesting that Lily wasn't giving up on her relationship with Petunia but was trying to keep it alive in some sense.

We also don't know whether Lily, as you say, "fought to help Petunia realize they were sisters and she loved her and wanted her in her life"... People have all sorts of different ideas about what a familial relationship entails; just because they were sisters doesn't mean that they had to share a phonecall every Sunday evening or send their kids to the same daycare in order to show their solidarity and maintain their relationship. And I think Lily was shown expressing to Petunia that she wanted her in her life by asking her to attend her wedding with James and displaying that ugly vase, going out to dinner with Petunia and Vernon and making the effort to like Petunia's future husband despite the fact that Vernon was (IIRC) being rude or showing off or whatever. Lily seemed to be the one making all the effort with regards to Petunia in all of the information we have about them so IMO I don't think Lily gave up on Petunia easily at all.

I don't get the impression that she did. I see Lily as the character who walked away, nose in the air, immediately assuming something was meant as an insult (being called a witch) instead of asking questions and finding out what Severus actually meant, and I don't think she changed as a person.

Lily was, what? Nine years old when she did this? You don't think she grew up at all? For what it's worth, I agree with FurryDice on this issue; Lily's reaction in assuming Snape had called her an insulting name was a reasonable one because she didn't know any better at the time. For all her nose-in-the-air-ness in her assumption, she also shows that she's willing to listen to Snape at some point because she ends up learning that magic is real and that being called a "witch" isn't an insult and becoming friends with the boy who she thought had insulted her.

agree that she was right to strongly oppose Snape's chosen path even though he might have chosen it for the wrong reasons too. I think it's perfectly alright for a character to have strong moral principles and stick with them so I don't see this necessarily as being self righteous. However, Lily's halo is sort of tainted by her involvement with James, the way I see it. Don't get me wrong, they are great as a couple and I understand that James is supposed to have changed. But as a teenager, it was disturbing how much pleasure he took in others' pain and humiliation (read Snape's) and while we were shown Lily telling him off, that somewhat gets overshadowed by her agreeing to date him anyway.

It's not like James levicorpus'd Snape and Lily agreed to go out with him while Snape was dangling over their heads. James had a year plus a couple months between SWM and the earliest time he and Lily could have begun dating if you assume they began dating immediately upon the start of their seventh year. Who knows what happened during their sixth year?! The war could have escalated to catastrophic levels of horribleness causing James to sort of wake up and smell the maturity roses. One or both of his parents could have died - that'd change him. He could have experienced some aspect of the war in some way that would cause him to realize that he's being infantile and putting his efforts into the wrong things (being a bullying jerk) and he needs to get his act together if he wants to make a positive difference in the war efforts. There's a great number of things, IMO, that could get James to grow up to a point where Lily would consider dating him, let alone actual do it.

Perhaps she believed he had changed but even so, while I agree with her for breaking it off with Snape, I don't see teenage James as much of an improvement. She dated the man who bullied her once best friend and that seems rather strange to me for someone who is often praised for her morals.

Just like we don't know what James was up to that caused him to change in such a way as to lead to Lily agreeing to date him, we don't know what Snape was up to, either. He could have been up to some bad business that Lily didn't like causing her to feel no remorse for dating the boy who, two years before, used to bully her once (and no longer) best friend.


I wouldn't dream of dating a person who harasses people especially not someone who was once my friend even if the friendship is over. So in my view, that's a rather bizarre behavior from her part.

Fair enough.

IMO, we aren't getting the whole story. We see two instances of James being a jerk to Snape and are told that he picked on Snape a lot (whether he or Sirius was the instigator we don't know). We're also told, though, that Snape didn't exactly take things lying down and that he, likewise, never missed an opportunity to hex/curse/jinx/get his revenge on James. I think there's a good argument to be made for Snape and James being equally aggressive towards each other and that James was just not as good about not getting caught at it as Snape was. At the risk of this becoming a James v. Snape deal I'll stop there and bring it back around to Lily by saying that when she was friends with Snape, she only ever heard his side of the story which demonized James as the uber-bully, the aggressor, the one who was always at fault. I'm pretty sure that he didn't go around telling her how he got a good tripping jinx off on James the day before or how he perfected sectum sempra on James in their sixth year or whatever. In her sixth year, without Snape whispering his James-bashing drivel into her ear at every opportunity, she might have had a chance to witness their (James and Snape's) interactions with a little more objectivity and what she might have seen could have indicated to her that James wasn't the uber-bully Snape and she had always thought and that maybe she had passed too harsh a judgement on James too quickly.

Is love ever unconditional? If one says they love a partner unconditionally, are they saying they would stay if their partner abused them, or committed even more horrific crimes? Then, that isn't love, that's something dangerous, foolish and obsessive.

That's why I say that I don't think there's any such thing as "unconditional" love. All that is is love that hasn't experienced relationship-ending conditions yet.

I'm talking about the time they were in school. None of them had got involved in the war by that point and I don't think that Lily considered the war when choosing her dates.

I would agree in the sense that I don't think she went around thinking "hmm, Georgie hasn't volunteered to join the Ministry Militia yet, I don't think i'll go out with him, but Tony has so maybe I'll take him to Hogsmeade next weekend," or whatever but I do absolutely think that a war of the caliber we are led to believe it was (a big, bad, racially charged one) that would have seriously affected not only herself but her family as well would have influenced her, if only in helping her to solidify her values and to decide not to associate with those who diametrically opposed those values, such as Snape appeared to do. I think her attraction to James had less to do with "the war" as it had to do with the fact that they seemed to share some of the same fundamental values that she and Snape didn't share (or didn't appear to share).

My point was that she criticized Snape for using the dark arts but at the same time dated a man who took pleasure in another's suffering.

There's a big difference between putting the cruciatus curse on someone and making bats fly out of their nose, though. Man, how I wish this James v. Snape thing wasn't off the table because I so badly want to say more!!

I don't think she is wrong for dating James but it makes me take her so called principles with a grain of salt.

You have to take everyone's principles with a grain of salt to some respect because we all have different experiences in life.

Being a bigot is wrong but so is being a bully, IMO. Regardless of what side of the war the person stands on.

Reinterating my intense desire to say something here but am stopping myself because I don't want a ban.

IMO, Lily had a sense of perspective. I think she saw that there was a vast difference between being a brat in school and being a racist wannabe terrorist.
IMO, Lily saw a rivalry between James and Snape. She saw seven years of interaction, the reader did not.
Like that between Harry and Malfoy - suppose one took their whole view of the Harry v Malfoy rivalry from that scene at the end of GoF where Malfoy and his minions ended up cursed silly.

Add to this that we never ever ever ever hear James's side of the story regarding Snape. (And IMO Sirius and Remus are no subtitutes for James.) and we get a bare glimpse at Lily's side of the story regarding them both.

IMO, the memories we were shown, especially the two older hogwarts memories, showed that Lily and Snape didn't have a perfect friendship that was only spoiled by Snape's association with Mulciber and Avery, I think they showed that Snape and Lily had a hard time communicating with each other in a manner that was respectful and wouldn't devolve into an argument which would put both of them on the defensive and lead to even more problems. Bad communication, IMO, is a symptom of problems in any kind of relationship and I think there was a lot more going on that we didn't see that contributed to Lily "giving up" on Snape.

I think the heart of the problem is that they didn't understand each other very well. I think they came from two different worlds and two different backgrounds. I still think she gave up on him.

I'm not disputing the fact that Snape loved Lily. But does that mean that she is obliged to love him in return? No.

Severus was my example of unconditional love. It doesn't obligate her to have the same feelings.

I don't think we know enough about their relationship to say who gave up on whom and to pass judgement on whether they gave up too easily. In canon (the books) we see Lily and Petunia as children (Lily at age 11 off to Hogwarts, Petunia a little older) and then... nothing, chronologically, until PS/SS opens with Uncle Vernon and we are introduced to Petunia whose sister has been dead for ten years.

I see a parallel between Lily and Petunia and Lily and Severus. It's as if Petunia and Lily were from two different worlds - one child magical and one not - and the lack of communication and understanding. I'm not sure it's one sided - since Lily had the same issue with Severus and with Petunia, I'm thinking she's guilty as well.

Lily was, what? Nine years old when she did this? You don't think she grew up at all? For what it's worth, I agree with FurryDice on this issue; Lily's reaction in assuming Snape had called her an insulting name was a reasonable one because she didn't know any better at the time. For all her nose-in-the-air-ness in her assumption, she also shows that she's willing to listen to Snape at some point because she ends up learning that magic is real and that being called a "witch" isn't an insult and becoming friends with the boy who she thought had insulted her.
She grew up, but I'm not sure she changed. And there are other examples, such as when the tree limb hit Petunia.


You have to take everyone's principles with a grain of salt to some respect because we all have different experiences in life.

Agreed. We don't all see things the same way or interpret things the same way.

She grew up, but I'm not sure she changed. And there are other examples, such as when the tree limb hit Petunia.

IMO, that's not a nose-in-the-air situation; to me this shows that she has learned from her previous encounter with him where he called her a witch and she replied that that wasn't very nice. In the tree branch instance, she calls Snape out before she leaves ("Did you make that happen?" "You did!... You did, you hurt her!" and he tries to flub his way out of it by lying (as it is my opinion that he is lying in that instance, i.e. "But the lie did not convince Lily") so she's showing a growth, even in a small amount, in the first two memories we have of her.

Lily's reaction to Snape appearing to drop a tree branch over Petunia seems a reasonable one to me. He appears to drop a branch over her sister (whether by accidental magic or not) catching her on the shoulder and potentially really hurting her and then lies about it when confronted. I'd be mad enough at any of my friends to storm away on them if they tried to cause physical harm to my sister.

The worst I can say of Lily is that she seems to run hot and cold on Snape.

Lily's reaction to Snape appearing to drop a tree branch over Petunia seems a reasonable one to me. He appears to drop a branch over her sister (whether by accidental magic or not) catching her on the shoulder and potentially really hurting her and then lies about it when confronted. I'd be mad enough at any of my friends to storm away on them if they tried to cause physical harm to my sister.

To me, it's an example of something she assumed she understood, but most likely did not. I don't think she was familiar with accidental magic at that point and assumed Severus did it on purpose, which I don't think he did. IMO, it's another example of poor communication.

Lily knew he was angry at Petunia and saw the branch it her. I think that, because Lily probably has more than average control over her own magic, she assumed Severus looked at the branch and purposefully got the branch to hit Petunia. I see it more as when Harry blew up his aunt - yes, he was angry with her, but that's not the same as consciously choosing what happened to her, IMO. Lily didn't stick around for an explanation.

While I can completely understand her not backing the DE ideology, to me, she gave up on her supposed best friend Severus much too easily. Some times people join groups for all the wrong reasons, but to me, being a compassionate and caring person to your friend means you keep trying to get them to see they're on the wrong path. This is very different from condoning the path itself, I think.

I don't see it as giving up too soon, but more like trying to hold on for too long, until the friendship reached its bitter end. To me it appears that Lily tried to steer Severus away from his gang, tried to warn him about Mulciber and Avery, tried to tell him her feelings about using Dark Arts against people. After a while I don't see any point in trying to convince someone who is not interested in what she is saying. If Lily's friend's path is a path that might get her killed and destroy the things she cares about, then it seems perfectly reasonable to me for her to decide at that point to make her life about what she wants to do about it: "...You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine."

I think the most important thing to her was to dedicate her future to opposing the Death Eaters.

I also think Lily gave up on her relationship with Petunia much too easily as well. It doesn't mean Petunia was correct - I don't think she was - but I wish Lily had fought to help Petunia realize they were sisters and she loved her and wanted her in her life.

Lily was only eleven when Petunia declared her a freak, and immediately after that was on the train to Hogwarts without time to resolve anything. I think it was more that Lily wasn't quite sure what to do about it, especially if Petunia was set in that attitude from then on. I would have loved to learn more about Lily and Petunia, but Lily couldn't-- shouldn't have to-- stop being magical to become acceptable to Petunia, and I think that's what it came down to. Petunia seemed to be ruled by jealosy, even decades later.

I'm talking about the time they were in school. None of them had got involved in the war by that point and I don't think that Lily considered the war when choosing her dates.

As FurryDice and Goddess Clio said, Lily considered the war when deciding who to associate with, at least by the end of her fifth year.

My point was that she criticized Snape for using the dark arts but at the same time dated a man who took pleasure in another's suffering.

She was not dating James at the time James was doing that, or at the same time she was friends with Severus and trying to Severus about him thinking using Dark Arts on people was funny. I think she made it very clear to James at the end of fifth year that she did not like some of the things he did, and wanted nothing to do with him.

Past that summer, past the whole of sixth year, past that summer, seventh year and at some point Lily decided she wants to date James.

Sirius and Lupin indicated in OotP that they were "berks" at fifteen, and that they grew out of it-- which I took to mean that that behavior started at fifteen and ended sometime after they turned sixteen.

Lily never endorsed bullying-- in fact, I felt she clearly stated that she did not like that behavior-- and I do not see dating someone years after the incident as somehow endorsing it.

To me, it's an example of something she assumed she understood, but most likely did not. I don't think she was familiar with accidental magic at that point and assumed Severus did it on purpose, which I don't think he did. IMO, it's another example of poor communication.

Lily knew he was angry at Petunia and saw the branch it her. I think that, because Lily probably has more than average control over her own magic, she assumed Severus looked at the branch and purposefully got the branch to hit Petunia. I see it more as when Harry blew up his aunt - yes, he was angry with her, but that's not the same as consciously choosing what happened to her, IMO. Lily didn't stick around for an explanation.

Lily did seem to have extraordinary control over her magic as a child (I found it pretty impressive, actually), so I agree that she may not have understood that Severus may not have that same degree of control that she did. I don't think Severus's denial of responsibility helped the situation, though, because it seemed to me to only deepen Lily's suspicion, as I think she sensed the lie.

Alastor opened the new instalment of this thread here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=131891).