Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis

Welcome to the post-DH discussion of Lily Potter. Previous discussion without spoilers can be found here: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=96591)



So now we know why Lily's Green eyes were so important! A lot of things have fallen into place and questions have been answered.....which means plenty for discussion!


Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.
According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

1. Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
I think she would naturally take to Snape because he was the first wizard she met. They became great friends outside of school, and that would really strenghten their relationship.

2. Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
I don't think there was much that could be done. Petunia was jealous of Lily, and Lily couldn't have done anything to help Petunia come to Hogwarts. She wasn't a witch, and therefore couldn't attend.

3. Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.
She had friends from every house, though Snape was her only true Slytherin friend. He was in fact her best friend for a while, though it was a secret friendship. She knew the inner Snape that no one else did. However, their relationship fell apart when he called her a mudblood, and they were never the same friends again.

4. According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
Other people saw Snape on the surface, but she is the only one that actually knew him deep down. Lily is the only one who gave him a chance, and therefore she knew him like no one else could understand. She ignored her other friends' negative opinions of Snape because she knew better.

5. Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?
I think Lily was tired of convincing her friends that Snape wasn't evil or mean, and then to have him come out and call her a mudblood just went against everything she claimed about him. She thought she saw the good in him, but he threw it away in a moment of panic because his enemy was fighting him and he had to get help. I do think if she had lived, they would have made up later in life. Though, it would have been difficult because she probably would have still married James and they wouldn't have gotten along.

1. Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

I think that Snape living so close to Lily and being her first contact with the magical world profoundly affected her. Her attatchment to him was probably close to Harry's attatchment to Hagrid (being his first contact with the magical world after his encounter as a baby). I think that it was probably heartbreaking to Lily to see her best friend become what he became while in Slytherin at Hogwarts. Imagine Harry finding out Hagrid was deeply immersed in the dark arts.

2. Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

I think that Petunia could have stopped being a brat and realized that it wasn't Lily's fault that she wasn't a witch as well. I think Petunia carried a childish bitterness her whole life because she was jealous of her beautiful and talented sister. Lily was absolutely distraught when Petunia was upset or angry with her while they were children and it seems that they were really close. Petunia must have been really angry and bitter to be able to forget that. I think that Petunia was beyond wanting to fix their relationship. Lily, in her letter to Sirius, seemed to have gotten over being upset or sad about Petunia. Lily casually says she has no complaints about Harry breaking the vase Petunia sent her. I think the both sisters realized their relationship was forever broken.

3. Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

In "Snape's Worst Memory," Lily is hanging out with a bunch of girls and NOT james and the marauders. Also in the "Prince's Tale," she talks about a fellow griffyndor girl Mary Macdonald. I think Lily probably made friends with fellow Griffyndor girls who shared similiar characteristics: kind, intelligent, smart etc. Lily seemed to be normal, she probably didn't dislike someone unless they gave her a reason.

4. According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

I think what her friends couldn't understand is that they couldn't see why someone as kind and wholesome as Lily could be friends with a Slytherin wannabe death eather. I don't think that this means that she hung out with judgemental people because they had it right, Snape didn't deny that he wanted to be a death eater.

5. Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

I think that this was the first time that she realized she was really losing the Snape she could call "Sev." Her best friend called her the most offensive name possible- imagine Ron or Harry calling Hermione a mudblood. It probably hurt her more than if a stranger had said it. She probably knew it was too late for him to change. Even when he said sorry she knew that if he could even use the word, he believed that being muggleborn was a bad thing and he was invested in Death Eater ideology.

Had Lily lived, Snape probably wouldn't have had a reason to betray his death eaters. I doubt Snape and Lily would have been friends had she lived.

1. Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
Lily's first recognised connection to the magical world was Snape because he was the one who told her she was a witch. Lily would naturally feel attached to him as he understood why she could do things like flying. Her parents and sister probably could not accept her(before they were told she's a witch) for that. She quite easily accepted the fact that she could do magic and I think she was easily integrated into the magical world and Hogwarts.

2. Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
Petunia, as we saw, was jealous that Lily was witch and herself not. Lily was apologetic and sincerely offered to ask Dumbledore if he would change his mind and take Petunia in. The fault lies with Petunia solely, as from this we can see that Lily was good-hearted and not the boisterous kind. I think Lily tried hard to return their relationship to the old times. The only thing that could repair the relationship would be for Petunia to just be supportive of Lily.

3. Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts?
I think Lily had friends of all sorts at Hogwarts, except those who'd the inclination to the Dark Arts. She seemed friendly and kind because of the way she treated Snape - he was an outcast yet she was friends with him. We could see that she did not approve of Snape's friends so those were the only kind she did not have. But the closer friends(the bunch of girls she hung out with) would have been those who share her characteristics.

4. According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
Lily's friends did not understand that Lily is not a judgemental person. She saw no reason in NOT being friends with Snape even though many did not like him. And as mentioned in the book, he was her first contact to the magical world, to hogwarts. He shared his knowledge with her and I think she appreciated it. She saw the good beneath Snape. By this, we can guess that Lily was well-liked because of her character.

5. Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

It was the last straw for Lily because Death Eaters are the ones who call muggles "mudblood". She had advised Snape against befriend those whom she knew were going to become Death Eaters but he did not listen to her. By calling someone "mudblood", Snape has indicated that he has chosen to be a Death Eater, which made Lily really upset because she had disapproved of them. Moreover, Snape calling Lily, of all people, "mudblood", was so offensive because it shows that he has disregarded her as a friend while she had thought they were best of friends, worse still, it considered her beneath him and not worthy of his friendship. When she has always been defending Snape, this is what he gives her. I could imagine she was heartbroken, like she had lost a brother.

If only Lily knew how much Snape loved her, how much he regretted calling her a mudblood and become a Death Eater, I believe she would have forgiven him simply because of her kindred spirit.

1. Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
I think it probably benefitted her because she was able to glean more info about the wizarding world before going to school and had someone, at least for a while, to communicate with during holidays, to keep a connection to that world.

2. Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
Wow, that's a hard one. I don't think so. Tuny was angry at the loss of her sister and seemed to blame the wizarding world for that loss. Tunys desire to go to Hogwarts, even though she was not magical, shows her desire to stay with her sister. She never got over that loss.

3. Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.
It seems she was the kind of person who would have been popular, and not because she was a cheerleader (no offense intended, just going with the stereotype) but because she was kind and fun-loving.

4. According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
Again, that she was willing to give people a chance. She was the kind of person that would try to like anyone until they proved not worthy of her.

5. Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?
I think she had been seeing him fall into the dark arts and it bothered her. But for him to call her such a foul name after defending him and still trying to be his friend showed her, wrongly we now know, that he had crossed some kind of invisible line. We all have them, whether we are aware of them or not. Snape did that, in front of everyone, after she had tried to help him. It was like a cold slap in the face.
If she had lived, given that she was married to James and, by that time, Snape was a DE, I don't see that they would have had an opportunity to reconcile. Sad, isn't it? I wonder what she, and James for that matter, think of Snape now?

Short reply for now:
I'm glad we got to see the actuall Lily in this book,not just the pretty intelligent girl,but the real reason so many people valued her ,he kindness,which was only indicated throughout the books.Here we see it again and agin,with her sister and how she cared for her,when she was trying comfort her for not being a witch,and of course,with Snape.It's little wonder he cared for so much.

Very true. We got a much more rounded idea of her character than we've had before, and it was a great help in understanding not only her, but Snape and Harry as well. There's a lot of her in him.

I wonder what she, and James for that matter, think of Snape now?

I would think they'd forgive him. If only because he did so much, more than perhaps anyone except Dumbledore, to protect Harry. Even though he loathed and despised him. Lily, I think, forgave him anyway. She just understood that she was the exception, not the rule, and that's what made it the final straw. She could never have had a serious friendship with someone who hated what she had been, and what her family still were.

It was good to finally see the parts to Lily that likened her to Harry...her kindness, her disregard for what other people thought of her. Like Harry choosing Ron over Draco despite Draco's sneer, Lily too chose to be friends with Snape despite what other people said.
We saw a lot of simularities between Harry and Lily just from the Prince's chapter!
However i did think that we might find out a bit more of a significance with Harry inheriting her eyes, i thought there might have been something in that?

1. Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

I think her pre-Hogwarts friendship with Snape enabled her to make a smooth transition from the Muggle- to Wizarding- world. By identifying her as a witch, and sharing information with her, Snape gave a name and credence to the "special talents" she'd developed. It was a comfortable relationship, because he understood her in a way that Petunia and her parents couldn't. I'm sure she began school with more excitement than apprehension, thanks to him.


2. Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

I don't think Lily could have done anything more than she did. Petunia saw Lily's acceptance of her Hogwarts invitation as a betrayal. In Petunia's eyes, Lily chose "that awful boy" and his world over her sister.


3. Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

I envision her similar to how Ginny is portrayed: popular, vivacious, caring with friends from all the houses.


4. According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

I think it shows her to be non-judgemental and accepting.


5. Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

I think she felt that, in that moment, Snape chose his path. She'd been trying to dissuade him from the wanna-be DE's, and using that highly offensive term with his supposed-best friend was tantamount to declaring allegiance to them.

I don't think Snape calling her a mudblood was the only reason Lily stopped talking to him. There were a lot of other things that had been piling on for a long time.
Lily herself said that she could not make any more excuses for him. This obviously means that there had been times when she need to find a reason to excuse Snape's behaviour; something she might not have done for someone else.
Lily found Snape's and his friends' sense of humour evil.
She knew that he has willingly made a choice to be a death eater. Lily would have rather died than joined Lord Voldemort.
Snape always considered muggles beneath him. He could never understand Lily's loyalty towards Petunia.
I think Snape calling her mudblood just forced her to finally take a decision.
Snape obviously did not truly want to call Lily a mudblood. But saving his face infront of his death eater friends had mattered more to him at that instant.

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
Snape and Lily's friendship began as one person helping another to understand why they were different. Lily had no idea why she could do what she could do at age 10 and Snape was right there telling her she was not a freak.

Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
Even though we don't have any canon on it, I think that it could have been repaired, especially if Petunia had gotten over her jealousy of Lily.

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.
She was a popular girl, like Ginny was. She would be willing to befriend an oddball, just as Ginny would, because both of them could look past the exterior to see the real person.

According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
This speaks volumes about Lily's character and especially her integrity. She valued what Snape had been to her. I am sure he always treated her very well, until that unfortunate Mudblood incident, of course.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?
Snape crossed the line with the mudblood comment. He had been coming close throughout the years, starting with sending the tree branch onto Petunia. His friendship with the future Death Eaters and his activites influenced her, too. I believe that Snape was responsible for his actions. He had gone to a place where she could not follow.

I think that Lily would have been pleased to see that Snape was Dumbleodre's man through and through and that he was extremely brave. But she would not have liked that he never fully embraced his own life and happiness. And she would not have liked to see how he treated the son that she died to save.

I think Lily ends up as one of the heroes of the story, even if she wasn't alive for any of the books 1-7. Her capacity for love saved Harry, and her attempts at maintaining the friendship with Snape saved Harry later. It's a shame that she and Petunia didn't seem to get along well, but Lily probably tried.
The mudblood / snivellus exchange between Snape and Lily probably was that last straw. Snape maintained his crush on Lily until his death, but Lily probably didn't look back too much (unless prompted by James :rolleyes:)

1. Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

I think her friendship with Snape garnered her pre-Hogwarts information that she, otherwise, wouldn't have been privy to until she actually entered the magical world.

2. Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

No, I don't think so. Lily apologized before she left for Hogwarts and probably tried to patch things up with Petunia again later but, clearly, nothing worked. Petunia is just a proud, stubborn lady. One big pain in the butt.

I'm also not so sure Petunia was just upset over what had happened with Snape, either. I think she was jealous, as well, and nothing Lily could have said/done would have made her feel any less jealous...nothing short of her not going to Hogwarts, anyways.

3. Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

I'd say she was close friends with people like herself -- kind, outgoing, warm, etc. -- but could befriend almost anyone, given her relationship with Snape.

4. According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

Given the rivalry between Slytherin and Gryffindor as well as the people Snape was hanging around, it makes perfect sense that the majority of those who knew her and knew she was friends with Snape would question their relationship so I think it proves how strong, independent, kind, and loyal she was.

5. Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

I think it was the last straw because she'd already, apparently, put up with so much at that point and could handle no more. Unfortunately, I don't think she would have reconsidered her decision had she lived because, at that point in time, they'd drifted so far apart that I can't imagine them ever having found each other again. The only way I could ever see them reuniting is if she were to find out, somehow, that Snape was the one who'd handed over vital info to the Order.

Now that I think about it...did she know? If she didn't know, why not? :hmm:

So now we know why Lily's Green eyes were so important!
Do we really? I don't think the books ever really explained that.



5. Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

As others have said I think it was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Lily was willing to go to preserve their friendship but time and time again Snape seemed to choose his Slytherin friends ne conform to their ideas. Its hard to be friends with someone who keeps getting caught up in doing wrong things that hurt people. The fact that Snape and Lily were friends was like an open secret. I think Lily and Snape were drifting apart for a while and then for Snape to say something so hurtful and down right racist just made her realize she couldn't keep being friend with her anymore. If a Jewish girl and a boy member of the Hitler Youth had a friendship their relationship would get complicated pretty quickly. Girl and boy are friends but boy's affiliates are hellbent on destroying girl's entire world. A person can only take so much from a friend. I think if Lily might have reconsidered her decision if Snape hadn't become a deatheater and turned against Voldemort.


Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

Hey, Lily tried to patch things up with her sister. What more could Lily have done? Refused to go to Hogwarts? Petunia was the one with the jealousy issues. She was the one that could never get over it. The fault lies completely with Petunia on that one. If Petunia had gotten over herself and her jealousy their relationship might have been saved.

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
As cool as it would be to discover that you had special powers, you would quickly realize that it made you a "freak" in many people's eyes. In Snape, Lily found that she was not alone. I think that if they had stayed in their muggle neighborhood, the bond from being the only 2 magical people around would have been lifelong. But once at Hogwarts, where their abilities were common, they slowly grew apart. Which is what tends to happen to childhood friends.

Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
Other than Lily coming home and swearing off magic? Probably not.

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.
She seems to be friendly and likable. But I think she probably had few close friends. There is so little mention of her friends in the books - only one by name I think - and no other close friend of Lily's shows up as a character whereas lots of James' friends do. If I had a close friend who was murdered leaving an orphaned son, I would try to contact him. Some have mentioned that her friendship with Snape might have been a secret, but I disagree and I think that is the reason that she didn't form close friendships early on with other girls at Hogwarts. I'll bet Lily & Sev stuck together quite a bit in the early years before his growing interest in the dark arts started coming between them.

According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

To me, it shows that she was both loyal and nonjudgemental - believing in Snape's goodness long after most others had written him off.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

I think calling this "the last straw" is a good description. We know they'd argued about Snape's association with wannabe Death Eaters and the dark arts before. They probably argued more than once. She had probably sadly come to realize that he really did believe in all that pureblood supremecy stuff. And when he called her "mudblood" she ended a friendship that really wasn't viable anymore. I think she might have considered forgiving him if he'd denied being a Death-Eater-In-Training and everything, or even confessed love for her. But he didn't.

Do we really? I don't think the books ever really explained that.

"Her son lives. He has her eyes, precisely her eyes. You remember the shape and color of Lily Evans's eyes, I am sure?"

It was all about Snape and his love for Lily, I think.

I doubt we'll get a much deeper explanation of the importance of Lily's eyes than we already have, as that was the only one figuring into the plot.

JKR might've made it sound like there was more to it, but she had to be vague when answering questions...so all she really said was that there would be something.

And yet, eyes are the window to the soul, so the saying goes. One of the things I lament in our society today is the lack of face-to-face contact. Email, IM's, texts, all leave out the intimate idea of making eye contact. Jo touched me with the last words Sev spoke. To see the eyes of the one you love is important. For Snape, it was tantamount.

The only thing that bugged me about Lily was that she seemed to have the "know it all" syndrom. People with that characteristic bug me in real life, so I didn't like it in her. Hopefully by the time she got together with James, she had grown out of it a bit. Otherwise, I hope he held on to a good amount of arrogance so he could face her down.

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

Mainly in the sense of her having someone to share her secret with before she went off to school, so it probably didn't seem as scary to her at first as it did to Harry. She looked forward to it because he told her what it was like.

Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

I don't think so, really. The fact that Snape used his magic against Petunia, following which Lily chose to go to school with him, was probably seen by Petunia as an ultimate betrayal- more so since Lily remained friends with Snape. I think she was also somewhat bitter that Lily had an ability she didn't, and was part of a world she was shut out of. Which is sad, because there seems to have been a certain degree of affection between the girls when they were children :sad:

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

Can't actually tell, really. I have a feeling she might have been friends with Remus Lupin, but the Mary McDonald she spoke of also sounds like she might have been a friend, and given what I can make out of Lily's character she seems like she might have had quite a few more among the girls. And she was clearly good friends with Sirius by the time she wrote that letter to him, so it seems like a fair ground to assume that she became good friends with the Marauders by her last year at school.

According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

She was clearly good friends with people other than Snape, people who were probably scared off him because of his extensive knowledge of Dark Magic and his Death Eater friends, but tolerated him for her sake. And she might just have been friends with people from other Houses too, though I think Snape was the only Slytherin she ever put up with. In terms of her character, I'd say it shows a fair bit of open-mindedness, though it can't have been easy for her at times- she indicated as much in her conversation with Snape after SWM.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

I think the break had been coming for quite a while, she can't have liked his frequent use of Dark curses any more than James Potter did. And she indicates as much, saying she was tired of making excuses for his behaviour, which clearly more people than the Marauders found reprehensible.
I really don't think she'd have been happy at the news that Snape had become a Death Eater, if she ever knew. And I don't know how comfortable she'd have been, knowing how he felt about her. But I do think she'd have been grateful to know that he tried to protect Harry, though she'd probably have been enraged if she knew that while she lived, he'd have been willing to let Harry and James die as long as he got her to himself.

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

i'm not sure what impact it had on her opinion on the magical world. but it is easy to understand why she had a tight bond with snape. he was the first wizrd she ever met.

Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

i think so yes, i have a hard time believing something as simple as jealously could drive to sisters apart for a lifetime.

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

based on what we learn of her perticularly from slughorn, she would have been well liked, and had many friends.

According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

i think it means she was very nonjudgmental. she saw people for what they were and gave them a chance when other people wouldn't.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

i don't know, she came to his defense and he treated her like scum, she pretty much cummed up what she had ro say on that subject, and the fact that that was the last memory that we see of them together seems to answer the question.

I see what you mean, Druid, but I will never see Lily as cold or anything like that.

Lily did like James a bit by SWM, even if she didn't realize it. That is why she did, at one point, almost smile at him. And this would seem like the ultimate betrayal to Severus (if he noticed it). However, at this point, Lily doesn't WANT to fall for James. She knows he is an arrogant bully, and she tells him off for it. She stood up for Severus (and was friends with him for five years before that AND "made excuses" to her friends) even though people did not understand why a pretty, popular girl like her would do that.

If Lily has any flaw, she's a bit naive. Lily has the instinct to do the right thing, stick up for her best friend and scold James, even though her being a teenage girl with a crush betrays her a bit. I think, maybe, she did not quite fully understand how crazy both James and Severus (and many other boys) were for her. She sees herself doing something good, and Severus insulting her for it when they've already been fighting recently. Maybe she doesn't understand that if she were in that situation, she might've said something nasty also. She's probably never been picked on like that.

I am not sure if Lily knew at all that Snape liked her. Either she knew but hated that he wouldn't admit it, or she was honestly waiting for an explanation as to why she should be different than the other muggleborns. When Severus is sputtering about how James likes her, she raises her eyebrows as though she's amused....Does that mean she knew why Snape was telling her that? It's possible. But I like to think she didn't, and Snape's tragedy was that he was always at a loss for words when the subject came up with her so he was unable to tell her. He could've even told her she was different because she was his best friend, and he could've said she mattered more to him than his Death Eater friends. But she made him too nervous, and I think it's quite possible she never realized her presense did that to him. Again, being as charming as she was, I'm not sure she understood his social awkwardness. From her POV, she was likely expecting him to say that he valued her in some way, but he couldn't, so to her that was like confirming that he had chosen his path as a Death Eater and no longer cared about her.

I absolutely adore Lily, and I think we are all supposed to believe she was a purely good person, seeing as her sacrifice and love are so important to the series. While my perception of her may be off a bit, I'm pretty sure we're supposed to view her in the most positive light possible. Therefore, I can't help but make "excuses" for her actions.

1. Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

I think it had a tremendous impact on her as a muggleborn off on the adventure of a lifetime.

2. Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

Not really. Petunia was eaten up by jealousy. In truth, she was far more akin to Snape in terms of personality, cruelty and plain old meanness than Lily ever was.

3. Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

Well, we know they certainly weren't Slytherins - with the exception of her childhood friend, Snape. I'm guessing she drew her friends from Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, and Ravenclaw - as her son did many years later.

4. According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

Primarily that she was very loyal to those she befriended.

5. Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

I think a vast chasm in terms of interests and intent had grown between Lily and Snape by the time of the mudblood incident. She had been telling him for some time, quite honestly, how she felt about the path he was following and he chose to continue it. When the word escaped his lips, after she had defended him against James and Sirius, she had had enough.

Do I think she would have reconsidered and forgiven Snape for what he said to her? Possibly. But it wouldn't have lasted any longer than the time it took for Harry, her son, to arrive at Hogwarts. If Lily had been alive to see the horrible manner in which Snape treated Harry, I don't think she would have stood for it.

Druid One thing to remember is that Remus later said that the particular jinx that James was using was "in fashion" that year. He said there were months you couldn't walk a few feet without someone lifting you in the air by the ankle. So Lily probably saw people do that jinx to others all the time, not just James. Snape I think invented it, so he likely tried it out as well. So it wasn't like something one would get boiling angry about in general because it was done so often to people.

Lily may have gone around telling everyone to stop doing it. But I think Lily came to Snape's aid particularly because he was her friend and also because she liked James deep inside and didn't want to see him doing that to her friend. I think she was caught in a juxtaposition of friend v. guy I like. Of course after standing up for Snape, he turns around and calls her a mudblood and she was incensed.

Even then, she told James not to make Snape apologize to her for the comment because he was as bad as Snape in her eyes. She was pretty mad at them both by the end.

Lily may have gone around telling everyone to stop doing it. But I think Lily came to Snape's aid particularly because he was her friend and also because she liked James deep inside and didn't want to see him doing that to her friend. I think she was caught in a juxtaposition of friend v. guy I like. Of course after standing up for Snape, he turns around and calls her a mudblood and she was incensed.

Even then, she told James not to make Snape apologize to her for the comment because he was as bad as Snape in her eyes. She was pretty mad at them both by the end.

If Lily liked James at this point then that would be strongly dissapointing,hypocritical even.I got the impression that she also intervened becasue she was the prefect,it as kinda her responsibility,but her personal distress was because the target was her friend.

Welcome to the post-DH discussion of Lily Potter. Previous discussion without spoilers can be found here: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=96591)



So now we know why Lily's Green eyes were so important! A lot of things have fallen into place and questions have been answered.....which means plenty for discussion!

[QUOTE]
Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
I think he introduced her to a world she didn't know was real before, helped her appreciate her gift. He (initally) eases her mind about certain things (being Muggle-born), while making her nervous about others (the Dementers)she teaches him about love. He basically helps her understand that there are others like them and that there's nothing to be ashamed of.

Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

I really doubt it. While Petunia was jealous of Lily's friendship with Severus, she was more jealous of Lily's magic, something that she would never be able to experience. To the extent that Petunia harbored animosity to the magical world the rest of her life, the ball was in her court. Petunia chose to alienate Lily and extended that to Lily's son.
Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.
Apart from Severus, her friends seemed to be like her - studious, moral (in the sense of not using dark magic), friendly. She seemed to be more interested in strength of character than looks or popularity.
According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people? It says that she was loyal to Severus and believed that there was something in him that friends couldn't or wouldn't see - or maybe that, whatever his mistakes, he was redeemable. She obviously was concerned that he was being seduced by the dark magic and being led astray and tried to warn him. Her friends probably dismissed Severus as a bad person because of his associations and dark magic, but they didn't have her history with him. Ultimately, she defended him until it was clear to her that he was too far gone.
Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

The Mudblood comment was the straw the broke the camel's back probably a cumulative list of things he had done that gave her doubts about his character. It wasn't the comment itself, but that all of the things she wanted to believe about him were being shown for naive or wrong.

If Lily liked James at this point then that would be strongly dissapointing,hypocritical even.I got the impression that she also intervened becasue she was the prefect,it as kinda her responsibility,but her personal distress was because the target was her friend.

I don't see how it is hypocritical for her to intervene and tell James off at all. Yes, she liked James...but she may have been in denial. Either way, the fact that she likes him does not stop her from doing the right thing! It's not like she excused his actions just because she thought he was cute!

I don't see how it is hypocritical for her to intervene and tell James off at all. Yes, she liked James...but she may have been in denial. Either way, the fact that she likes him does not stop her from doing the right thing! It's not like she excused his actions just because she thought he was cute!

I don't find her intervening hypocritical.But Lily comes across as a person who values kindness and believes in good treatement of all people.Yet she likes James,who at this point,posses little of these qualities.It's just my opnion.But like I said,we're not sure off her feelings at this point(time around SWM)

1. Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

I think that he had prepared her to see it as a thing of wonder, even though her sister was upset about it, Severus showed her that he could see it was beautiful. He showed her enough of the wizarding world that she wouldn't be totally at a loss upon entering Hogwarts. I wouldn't be surprised if he helped her get her things, too.

2. Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

I think that Petunia would have had to have been happy-perhaps in a better marriage with a more caring individual. So much of her bad feelings for Lily come, I think, from the fact that Lily is popular and loved and she is not.

3. Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

I don't think we can really judge this well. I think she was the type of person who was friends with everyone, but really only /close/ friends with Severus. She was probably very popular in Gryffindor, which is why no one can understand her friendship with him.

4. According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

I think, if it's really true, that it either shows a weakness in Lily (inability to explain to her friends the good things she sees in Severus) or perhaps a desire not to give the Gryffindors that hate him ammunition against him. If they knew the secrets of Severus' past, I think that they (especially James & co) would not have hesitated to use them against him and make it all a matter for public joke, which Snape could not have borne. But I think she should have put up a stronger defense, "I like him and that's that, and you need to understand that if you're going to be friends with me."

5. Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

It was the last straw because it struck the deepest. It struck, perhaps, to secret fears she had about how much Severus was changing. It said to her, "See, that's what he's really thought of me all along." Whether that is true or not, I think that's what Lily thought, especially when he was unable to give her question an answer. Do I think she would have forgiven him? I think given the kind of person we see her to be, she had perhaps forgiven him seventh year, but by that point he was likely avoiding her because she was accompanied by James so much....but after she saw him become a real Death Eater I think she would have stayed away, even if pangs of regret hit.

I don't find her intervening hypocritical.But Lily comes across as a person who values kindness and believes in good treatement of all people.Yet she likes James,who at this point,posses little of these qualities.It's just my opnion.But like I said,we're not sure off her feelings at this point(time around SWM)

That's why she wasn't willing to go out with him at this point. She couldn't control the fact that she liked him. She saw the good in him and was waiting for him to mature. If she didn't value kindness so much, wouldn't she have dated him while he was picking on Snape?

Well, she did date him while he was still picking on Snape. She just didn't know. We're told that James was still hexing Snape while they were dating, he just kept it quieter.

Well, she did date him while he was still picking on Snape. She just didn't know. We're told that James was still hexing Snape while they were dating, he just kept it quieter.

We are also told that Snape "never missed a chance to hex James."

We're told by Lupin, who is hardly an unbiased observer. However, I suspect the decision to believe him or not will, for most people, boil down to what they believe of James Potter, and his character.

Personally, I think that was Lily's flaw as well as her strength-she always saw the good in people, but /only/ the good. It's why she failed to see the evil in Wormtail, and why I think she failed to see the negative qualities in James Potter. Remember, JKR does not write perfect characters, and I really don't think Lily Evans would be the only exception.

Personally, I think that was Lily's flaw as well as her strength-she always saw the good in people, but /only/ the good. It's why she failed to see the evil in Wormtail, and why I think she failed to see the negative qualities in James Potter. Remember, JKR does not write perfect characters, and I really don't think Lily Evans would be the only exception.

True, but James trusted Wormtail too, and Lupin criticised Harry for being too trusting, just like his father. Lupin knew Lily, he obviously thought that in the end James had been the more blinded of the two, when placing trust in people.

If she only saw the good in people, she would've been a little more understanding of Snape's mudblood comment! It wasn't nice, sure, but he was having a pretty bad day, don't you think? But my point is she was able to see the bad in him even when he was apologizing and threatening to sleep outside her dorm until she listened.

Lily should have realized Severus was a very insecure person and needed her reassurance, or he probably wouldn't have made such bad choices.

But I honestly think she's one of the least flawed characters we've seen in the whole series. And that's why I like her so much. :)

If she only saw the good in people, she would've been a little more understanding of Snape's mudblood comment! It wasn't nice, sure, but he was having a pretty bad day, don't you think? But my point is she was able to see the bad in him even when he was apologizing and threatening to sleep outside her dorm until she listened. But I think Lily could only put up with so much. She had been trying to remain friends with Snape for 5 years with every single thing working against them, and by him calling her a mudblood in front of a bunch of people was just showing that maybe he didn't care about their friendship as much as she did. I admit she could have accepted his apology, but Mudblood is a foul offense to the Wizarding World, and I think Lily was just fed up with trying, when it seemed all Snape wanted were the Dark Arts. Which is true, because he thought becoming a Death Eater would impress Lily.

Lily should have realized Severus was a very insecure person and needed her reassurance, or he probably wouldn't have made such bad choices.

But I honestly think she's one of the least flawed characters we've seen in the whole series. And that's why I like her so much. :) Agreed.

If she only saw the good in people, she would've been a little more understanding of Snape's mudblood comment! It wasn't nice, sure, but he was having a pretty bad day, don't you think?

Why should she have forgiven him? It would be like having a friend who you considered to be non - racist and then have them use a vulgar, racist slur against you. I mean Lily was standing up for him, and he completely humiliated her. I wouldn’t forgive, but then I ain't nice when I'm crossed.

The friendship was shown to be on rocky ground anyway: as a result of Snape and his DE friends and interest in the dark arts. In the end Snape destroyed that friendship because he was young, immature and made bad choices.

I completely understand the mudblood comment was the final straw for Lily. They'd been having problems in their relationship for a while anyway. And a lot of people would've acted the way Lily did. As I said, Lily has no major flaws, but she wasn't perfect enough to put up with her best friend being interested in joining a group that wanted to kill her. I totally get that.

So no worries, I'm not blaming Lily for it! Snape is just as responsible for what went wrong. :) I was just giving an example of something not one hundred percent perfect that she did...

I completely understand the mudblood comment was the final straw for Lily. They'd been having problems in their relationship for a while anyway. And a lot of people would've acted the way Lily did. As I said, Lily has no major flaws, but she wasn't perfect enough to put up with her best friend being interested in joining a group that wanted to kill her. I totally get that.

So no worries, I'm not blaming Lily for it! Snape is just as responsible for what went wrong. :) I was just giving an example of something not one hundred percent perfect that she did...

In fairness Lily is presented as pretty bloody perfect. Perhaps it was because Harry never met any of the people that might have not liked her, and the fact that we never really got to know her as a character, but were only told about her. If anything I'd say the only flaw she appeared to have was that she was too forgiving (to Petunia, Snape, James)

In fairness Lily is presented as pretty bloody perfect. Perhaps it was because Harry never met any of the people that might have not liked her, and the fact that we never really got to know her as a character, but were only told about her. If anything I'd say the only flaw she appeared to have was that she was too forgiving (to Petunia, Snape, James)

Who might not have liked her besides Death Eaters? :lol: There might've been a few girls besides Petunia who envied her for being "perfect"...and she would've been equally nice to them...

Perhaps Narcissa Malfoy, especially if she set her cap at Snape first! I swear there were some vibes between those two. Of course, not like we'd really see her POV, though.

Well, she did date him while he was still picking on Snape. She just didn't know. We're told that James was still hexing Snape while they were dating, he just kept it quieter.

It's the fact that Lily didn't know much about it that bothers me.Because if she did her reaction might have been different.

I liked Lily is the last book.They showed more of her true character in this book,like her understanding of people.

Yes, and I think that highlights her fatal flaw: she believed what she was told, and didn't question it. She believed what James Potter told her about the incident with Snape and the werewolf, and she believed what he told her about not hexing Snape. She took things at face value, because I firmly believe that Lily Evans was so incapable of a lie that she could not conceive of anyone lying to her .

Thats true.Unkind unjust behaviour seems beyond her understanding.I like how when she's little she justifies everyting as'that's not nice'.I knowthen shes a child then but it does to an extent show how she sees things.
But then if she was plainly lied too then I feel sorry for her,she didn't deserve that.

I would think that Lily would have gotten a better idea of how much James had hexed Snape and vice versa at some point during their dating phase. And she would also have ensured that James didn't hex Snape nearly as much after they started dating - even if Lily and Snape didn't talk so much any more, she still would put her foot down.
@ a post up above somewhere...of all the characters in the series, Lily does seem to be the least flawed. Petunia's the only one with something bad to say about here.

Yes, and I think that highlights her fatal flaw: she believed what she was told, and didn't question it. She believed what James Potter told her about the incident with Snape and the werewolf, and she believed what he told her about not hexing Snape. She took things at face value, because I firmly believe that Lily Evans was so incapable of a lie that she could not conceive of anyone lying to her .

What James told Lily about Snape and the werewolf was true. The fault was completely Sirius', who acted almost inhumanly towards Snape, because if he hadn’t been saved, Snape would have been killed. Snape was far to interested in their business anyway, as Lily pointed out, what the Marauders got up to was none of his business.

I really don't see how the Snape/James issue was in anyway a slight on Lily or indicated that James was dishonest with her. James and Snape disliked each other, intensely, it had absolutely nothing to do with Lily, and neither was required to tell her that they were covertly riling each other. Lily fell in love with James, when he finally grew up; who he hated was not a condition of this.

James was an absolute idiot and bully as a teenager, but he grew out of it, we are told this time and again. That James and Snape remained enemies for life, does not contradict this. We are left in doubt though that those who knew them considered Lily to be superior on a humanistic front. In the end, Lupin, who knew both James and lily, considered James to be the more trusting of the two, and that Harry to have inherited this failing. Lily’s failure in trust came when she trusted her husband that the choice of Wormtail for secret keeper was the best option. However if you can’t trust your spouse or your family, you really can’t trust any human being.

Sirius, who admittedly is a biased source as well, tells us that Lily did not know about James hexing Snape while they were dating. As he was saying something which was a slight negative reflection on a man he loved, I think we can assume he was telling the truth, as he would have no reason to tear James' memory down to protect Lily's. Thus, I think we can assume that Lily did not, in fact, know, and remained ignorant-though I certainly think we can give Lily the credit for getting James to stop hexing other people besides Snape!

Sirius, who admittedly is a biased source as well, tells us that Lily did not know about James hexing Snape while they were dating. As he was saying something which was a slight negative reflection on a man he loved, I think we can assume he was telling the truth, as he would have no reason to tear James' memory down to protect Lily's. Thus, I think we can assume that Lily did not, in fact, know, and remained ignorant-though I certainly think we can give Lily the credit for getting James to stop hexing other people besides Snape!

"Well," Said Lupin slowly, "Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?"

"And my mum was okay with that?"

Yes, but Lupin was one of the Marauders, and thus subject to the same biases as Sirius was, though of course to a lesser extent. I do not take this as a necessarily true or trustworthy statement, especially as Lupin fails to mention during this entire speech something which would have been common knowledge at Hogwarts: that Lily and Severus were friends.

Thus, I think we can assume that Lily did not, in fact, know, and remained ignorant-though I certainly think we can give Lily the credit for getting James to stop hexing other people besides Snape!

She shouldn't have had to stop him hexing others. When James and Lily finally got together they were practically legal, in the wizarding world. We are told that James grew up, calmed down and stopped being an arrogant little bully. When this happened Lily decided she liked the person he had become. We don't see James, so we have no indication that it was otherwise, and this is what we are told happened.

Sirius openly admits to his childhood mistakes and said he wasn’t proud of it, I doubt he and Lupin would have lied to Harry.

I do think though that they deliberatly kept quiet about Snape and Lily’s friendship, which meant that they really couldn’t tell Harry why exactly Snape and James continued to hate each other. They didn't tell harry because, well, his mother was dead and he was still a child, given to hot tempered behaviour, he didn't need to hear something that would have been so completely confusing for him, and they had probably been told by Dumbledore to keep quiet. Of course for plot purposes it couldn't be revealed till DH. Lupin never indicates that Snape disliked Lily, he never says anything, neither does Dumbledore.

To me a big problem is who started it all,which we may never find out.
But if James sole reason for hexing Snape was Lily then the fact he might have stopped being the instigator in 7th yr, when the and Lily got together doesn't say much.If he hadn't got with her would he have gone on hexing him?

Sirius, who admittedly is a biased source as well, tells us that Lily did not know about James hexing Snape while they were dating. As he was saying something which was a slight negative reflection on a man he loved, I think we can assume he was telling the truth, as he would have no reason to tear James' memory down to protect Lily's. Thus, I think we can assume that Lily did not, in fact, know, and remained ignorant-though I certainly think we can give Lily the credit for getting James to stop hexing other people besides Snape!

"Well," Said Lupin slowly, "Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?"

"And my mum was okay with that?"

She didn't know too much about it, to tell you the truth," Said Sirius "I mean James didn't take Snape on dates with her and jinx him in front of her, did he?" "OOtp"

This says to me that she might have had an idea of what James was up to but, not enough to confront him about it. Also, I think she knew if Snape and Jamaes were hexing Snape wasn't innocent in the situation.

It's only tangental to this thread - this is a Lily thread, after all - but Lupin's words in OoTP and HBP I take as very close to the truth. He seems a neutral source regarding his information to Harry about his father and Snape and Lily.

Great Ginny / Harry drawing :)

I wonder when Lily got the Doe patronus...I would expect that she had it from the start - and I wonder when she first cast said patronus. I don't know of any canon for knowing these questions, too...

She shouldn't have had to stop him hexing others. When James and Lily finally got together they were practically legal, in the wizarding world. We are told that James grew up, calmed down and stopped being an arrogant little bully. When this happened Lily decided she liked the person he had become. We don't see James, so we have no indication that it was otherwise, and this is what we are told happened.


We are told only by James's friends, who have every reason to lie. We are not told by impartial narration, and I think we can judge from what we see of his character. Would we have accepted this behavior from Harry, or Ron, or Hermione? No. We would have been appalled.

I think we cannot take the opinions of James's friends on why Lily felt various ways. We would have to talk to Lily's friends, and the only close one she seems to have had was Snape.

We are told only by James's friends, who have every reason to lie. We are not told by impartial narration, and I think we can judge from what we see of his character. Would we have accepted this behavior from Harry, or Ron, or Hermione? No. We would have been appalled.

I think we cannot take the opinions of James's friends on why Lily felt various ways. We would have to talk to Lily's friends, and the only close one she seems to have had was Snape.

We have to accept what Lupin and Sirius say: they tell Harry that they all were in some way to blame for the animosity with Snape, including Snape in the end. They blame themselves, James and Snape; the only one they leave out is Wormtail.


We are never going to know anything else, and we only ever saw James when he was behaving like an arrogant bully. Lupin and Sirius tell us all we really need to know, it is a children's book, why on earth would they dissemble?

All that really is important about their relationship is that they loved eachother and that that love created a very different child, from the child created through the disception and dishonesty in Merope and Tom's relationship. How and why they fell in love is not really important, and we were given the bare bones of that from the people who knew them.

When asked about it JKR hinted that Lily never hated James but that he was too much of a bully for her when he was younger. She was probably always attracted to him.

Honestly, I just don't think we 'have' to accept what Sirius and Lupin say, nor that they tell us all we need to know just because it's a children's book. Honestly, I don't even really view these books as children's books anymore. What children's books would reference excruciating torture and murder of people so frequently and often, or reference what happened to Dumbledore's sister at an incredibly young age?

Honestly, I just don't think we 'have' to accept what Sirius and Lupin say, nor that they tell us all we need to know just because it's a children's book. Honestly, I don't even really view these books as children's books anymore. What children's books would reference excruciating torture and murder of people so frequently and often, or reference what happened to Dumbledore's sister at an incredibly young age?

We don't have to accept anything but we will never get anymore information then what we have now.

They are books read by a large age range, and the younger readers just don't get the darker undertones that are hinted at in DH. DH is a very dark and morally ambiguous book and I wouldn't be comfortable giving it to children; however lots of the books are perfectly suitable for children; including the ones that talk about James and his friends.

Do you think that all Snape said about James was correct?

Do you think that all Snape said about James was correct?

No, I certainly don't, nor do I think that if he had spoken of Lily, all that he said would have been correct. I exempt no one from having biases. I certainly think that Snape had a strong bias against James, but I think despite it, we can glean some true bits, especially from when Snape is angry and shouting. I think we can glean from Harry's actions, and what Snape seems to get angry at him about, more of James than we can from Snape's spoken words alone.

I think that Snape loved Lily too much to think anything bad of her, and so her turning away from him and towards James probably turned into all James' fault, that he somehow forced or tricked her.

I think that Snape loved Lily too much to think anything bad of her, and so her turning away from him and towards James probably turned into all James' fault, that he somehow forced or tricked her.

That James forced or tricked her?

This is all my hypothesis of what Snape would have thought, so it maybe really doesn't belong on the Lily thread, but I'll be happy to take it to the Snape thread if you want!

This is all my hypothesis of what Snape would have thought, so it maybe really doesn't belong on the Lily thread, but I'll be happy to take it to the Snape thread if you want!

No, but Lily's relationship with both is important. If you think James tricked her into a relationship, then it's quite a strong opinion that the relationship was based on fraud.

I avoid the Snape threads at the moment; they are like minefields

Severus never expressed any bitterness toward Lily over her marrying James. He might have completely blamed James. But I don't know if he'd be convinced James tricked Lily into it; he might also have blamed himself for not being good enough for Lily.

Severus never expressed any bitterness toward Lily over her marrying James. He might have completely blamed James. But I don't know if he'd be convinced James tricked Lily into it; he might also have blamed himself for not being good enough for Lily.

Well said! By the way I love your pictures Lucrtia!

No, but Lily's relationship with both is important. If you think James tricked her into a relationship, then it's quite a strong opinion that the relationship was based on fraud.

I avoid the Snape threads at the moment; they are like minefields

Oh, no, no. I don't think James actually tricked her into a relationship, though I do think the relationship was not entirely honest. I was speculating on what Snape the character might think of the relationship.

Oh, no, no. I don't think James actually tricked her into a relationship, though I do think the relationship was not entirely honest. I was speculating on what Snape the character might think of the relationship.

Oh okay, well, I figure he was gutted, but he wouldn't be the first to watch the person that he loved, fall in love and marry someone else. He won't be the first either, that saw his beloved marry a nemesis.

I am sure it intensified his hatred of James, but I doubt he thought that James had tricked Lily.
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Severus never expressed any bitterness toward Lily over her marrying James. He might have completely blamed James. But I don't know if he'd be convinced James tricked Lily into it; he might also have blamed himself for not being good enough for Lily.

Meh, I doubt he blamed himself that much... He still joined the Death Eaters after all.

Oh, no, no. I don't think James actually tricked her into a relationship, though I do think the relationship was not entirely honest. I was speculating on what Snape the character might think of the relationship.

I know what you mean,it's the question of if she didn't know about hexing that how accurate was her opnion.But even though I'm not a big James fan I think Lily did get to know him quite well by the time they married.

I know what you mean,it's the question of if she didn't know about hexing that how accurate was her opnion.But even though I'm not a big James fan I think Lily did get to know him quite well by the time they married.

Well most married couples know each other pretty damp well and she was confiding in Sirius about his antsy behaviour in the letter Harry found in DH.

Well most married couples know each other pretty damp well and she was confiding in Sirius about his antsy behaviour in the letter Harry found in DH.

Not all couples.And I was just saying,no need to attack.I was speaking in their favour.

Not all couples.And I was just saying,no need to attack.I was speaking in their favour.

I wasn't attacking, sorry if you thought I was. I find all the James and Lily speculation quite interesting in a baffling way, because in reality all we know is that: she thought he was an idiot, he outgrew being an idiot, they dated, they married, they had Harry and they died. I mean we know more about Lily and Snape.

It is really only a few memories and the idea of them that we know.

I wasn't attacking, sorry if you thought I was. I find all the James and Lily speculation quite interesting in a baffling way, because in reality all we know is that: she thought he was an idiot, he outgrew being an idiot, they dated, they married, they had Harry and they died. I mean we know more about Lily and Snape.

It is really only a few memories and the idea of them that we know.

Right sorry about that,some poeple aren't really open to negative commentary.
Though that was a good summerization of what happened.Actually it wasn't a summery,that was pretty much it.
Strange how one chapter gave us so much isn't it?

Strange how one chapter gave us so much isn't it?

That chapter gave the us the whole reason for the series in the first, told a lot.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?
I think this was the last straw because at that point she finally realized the person Snape was becoming. Snape was a lot better when they first met, and the changes were something she couldn't tolerate, I think. She knew he was hoping to join the Death Eaters, and she couldn't handle that.
Honestly, I have no clue if she would've changed her decision if she had lived. Snape went on the good side because of the threat on Lily's life. If she continued to live, would Snape have ever moved to the good side? If he did, I'm sure she would've rekindled their friendship.

Meh, I doubt he blamed himself that much... He still joined the Death Eaters after all.

JKR said part of the reason he joined the DEs was that he was insecure. So of course he would've blamed himself....His thought process was that Lily must've chosen James over him because James did big, impressive things: He was popular, he saved Snape's life, he was a Quidditch hero, and his family was rich and well respected. Snape wanted to be a part of something impressive too and honestly believed Lily would've liked him better as a Death Eater. Deluded as he was, he joined the DEs thinking that would make him good enough for Lily. I don't really mean he expected for them to get back together, but it was all in his thought process...

Lily Evans is wayyy too perfect for my liking.

The harry potter series isn't focused on relationships. It's focused on good vs. evil and friendship and loyalty.

Hence the reason why we don't see every relationship developed very much (ex Lupin and Tonks, Harry and Ginny). This isn't the "How-Lily-and-James-fell-in-Love" book.

I do wish Rowling would make a statement instead of letting her readers battle it over.

I think that JK enjoys letting the fans speculate away - so she leaves things open-ended on purpose.

Of all the characters, we do have the least "negative" information on Lily. She likely wasn't perfect, but we only have Petunia saying negative words about her. Heck, even Voldemort (sarcastically) speaks well of her, and he's the one who killed her!

I found Lily a little too perfect upto DH,but it changed for me.Lily comes off not as someone who alwasy achieves her aims(rebuilding her sistership,her freindship with Snape)but she comes off as someon who doesn't stop trying(as best she can).This is what I like about her,her efforts ,not her achievements.

I think that JK enjoys letting the fans speculate away - so she leaves things open-ended on purpose.


I wish she'd sometimes come out and give a solid opinion so readers can stop dueling and interpreting every little word.

I wish she'd sometimes come out and give a solid opinion so readers can stop dueling and interpreting every little word.

All books have these character ambiguities and they are all subjective. I mean I remember studying English Literature, and getting so baffled by the constant analysing of what a author meant here and there; sometimes it is ridiculous and if they saw how we pulled their books/plays/poems apart they would probably sit back with a glass of wine, and look on in bafflement.

No other author answers questions about their characters and plot like JKR does. If she has to keep answering questions for things to become clear, then she hasn't written a complete or coherent book. All the answers should be there, and I think they are, we have been told all we ever needed to know. It is reader subjectivity that is coming into play otherwise. It is just that people want to know everything, and really that isn't possible. I agree relationships were never the focus of these books so if we are told that such and such are in love we have to accept it, I doubt she was dissembling.

I was watching ‘Newsnight Review’ review of Deathly Hallows (for anyone who doesn’t know that is a very high brow review discussion panel on the BBC) and they made the point about all the characters being shape shifters and incredibly morally ambiguous, and how Snape was the most interesting. I think what I am trying to say is that it is all subjective and we all have our own opinions on everything.

Something has been bothering me about Lily Evans ever since we saw her in OotP, and I thought I'd bring it up here to see if anyone else felt the same way (or even completely different) than I did.

In OotP, Harry comes a long way in realizing that James wasn't as perfect as he had always imagined him to be. I really liked that, because it showed that James was human, just like all of us, and Harry was seeming to idolize him - especially with Sirius and Remus around so frequently.

However, through OotP and now DH, Lily was never shown to have flaws. To some extent, Jo has done this with both Potter women (Lily and Ginny) in that neither have completely obvious flaws...and dare I say it, seem to be Mary-Sues. Now, don't get me wrong. Lily Evans is my favorite character, and I do like Ginny a lot. So this has been sort of nagging at me for some time, so if anyone could point out some flaws for Lily, I'd greatly appreciate it.

So I suppose I'm truly asking:

1. What are Lily Evans's flaws (both as a student at Hogwarts and as a married adult)?
2. Why do you feel that Jo did not portray her with flaws? If you feel that she did, why do you think she made them subtle flaws instead of say, Sirius's obvious recklessness that ultimately resulted in his death?
3. Is there a correlation between a lot of people liking Lily (being popular) and a lot of people liking Ginny (also being popular) in that neither seem to have any major flaws?

I'd love your thoughts! :)

1. What are Lily Evans's flaws (both as a student at Hogwarts and as a married adult)?
2. Why do you feel that Jo did not portray her with flaws? If you feel that she did, why do you think she made them subtle flaws instead of say, Sirius's obvious recklessness that ultimately resulted in his death?
3. Is there a correlation between a lot of people liking Lily (being popular) and a lot of people liking Ginny (also being popular) in that neither seem to have any major flaws?

That's very inetresting, because I have never been able to buy Ginny's coolness or perfection or whatever, and I do find her very forced and having no real flaws, but, funnily enough, I just loved Lily in DH. I think she's a wonderfully created character, despite the fact that we see no negative sides to her. Perhaps she;s just a wonderful person overall, and, to be fair, there wasn't much time to develop every detail of her character, was there? She was in the books only for as long as was needed to get across the message of her importance - I mean, she didn't get the seven-books' worth of development the main characters got.

I think that, re-reading the books, Lily does have flaws. But because we don't see a lot of her we don't get to see them that much.

However, re-reading SWM after we realize that she and Snape were friends does make me disapointed in her. She spent most of her time simply yelling at people, rather than actually making a real move to help. Could she not have un-jynxed him herself?

In fact, she was making it a bit worse for Snape, which is why I didn't feel that Lily was justified in being mad at Snape for calling her a Mudblood. The kids under a lot of pressure, and she's simply name-calling with James. (Personally, I think she liked him at that stage of time, but didn't want to admit to it.) I don't think he was right to say that to her, but at the same time I don't think LIly was right to hold a grudge over it.

I
However, re-reading SWM after we realize that she and Snape were friends does make me disapointed in her. She spent most of her time simply yelling at people, rather than actually making a real move to help. Could she not have un-jynxed him herself?

In fact, she was making it a bit worse for Snape, which is why I didn't feel that Lily was justified in being mad at Snape for calling her a Mudblood. The kids under a lot of pressure, and she's simply name-calling with James. (Personally, I think she liked him at that stage of time, but didn't want to admit to it.) I don't think he was right to say that to her, but at the same time I don't think Lily was right to hold a grudge over it.
I was quite shocked at her behavior during and after SWM. Yes, Severus did call her the 'M' word. But he was suspended upside down, being choked by soapsuds, and Lily seemed to be giving almost all of her attention to James. This was her best friend, her childhood friend, and she's got a little flirtation going with the bully who's tormenting him? Then, knowing his circumstances at home and that he's badly dressed in old, crummy clothes, she makes that crack about his underpants, calls him Snivellus, and walks away. Yuck. If she was going to intervene, why didn't she do enough to be effective?

Then, afterward, Lily's back in the common room and is forced to go out and speak to her childhood friend who's desperate to apologize to him. So much so that he's prepared to sleep on the floor outside the portrait hole so he can speak to her. Imagine what fun James and Sirius would have, finding a sleeping Severus Snape there, a gift for them to torment more. But Severus doesn't care. And Lily refuses his apology. She seems to have no regrets for the nasty cracks she made during SWM either, or the little smile. I thought that was harsh.

This is all teenage stuff, and there are faults on all sides, of course. But I'm a bit irritated with myself for having bought in too much to the idea of Saint Lily, and in DH I find an ordinary teenage girl. Pretty, charming, not too loyal to her unpopular old best friend and all ready to engage in flirtatious banter with the popular bully.

The sad thing is that my main reason for believing that James had grown into a better person was that the Lily Evans I thought I knew wouldn't have married a charming bully. :no: But the Lily I saw in DH makes me question all of that.

I was quite shocked at her behavior during and after SWM. Yes, Severus did call her the 'M' word. But he was suspended upside down, being choked by soapsuds, and Lily seemed to be giving almost all of her attention to James. This was her best friend, her childhood friend, and she's got a little flirtation going with the bully who's tormenting him? Then, knowing his circumstances at home and that he's badly dressed in old, crummy clothes, she makes that crack about his underpants, calls him Snivellus, and walks away. Yuck. If she was going to intervene, why didn't she do enough to be effective?

Then, afterward, Lily's back in the common room and is forced to go out and speak to her childhood friend who's desperate to apologize to him. So much so that he's prepared to sleep on the floor outside the portrait hole so he can speak to her. Imagine what fun James and Sirius would have, finding a sleeping Severus Snape there, a gift for them to torment more. But Severus doesn't care. And Lily refuses his apology. She seems to have no regrets for the nasty cracks she made during SWM either, or the little smile. I thought that was harsh.

This is all teenage stuff, and there are faults on all sides, of course. But I'm a bit irritated with myself for having bought in too much to the idea of Saint Lily, and in DH I find an ordinary teenage girl. Pretty, charming, not too loyal to her unpopular old best friend and all ready to engage in flirtatious banter with the popular bully.

The sad thing is that my main reason for believing that James had grown into a better person was that the Lily Evans I thought I knew wouldn't have married a charming bully. :no: But the Lily I saw in DH makes me question all of that.


Agreed. What confuses me, though, is that he just called her one mean word. Just one for the first time, as far as we know. And a lot of times people get angry and say one mean word, but then they make up.
And JKR said in an interview that Lily loved him as a friend and could've come to love him romantically...then why would she just let him hang like that, in complete embarrassment in front of the entire school. I find that very mean.

I am such a Lily/James shipper, but I'm also having doubts about her love for James. Who was she really?

<3

Wimblemimble and Slylady you both make some very good points.

I found Lily a little two dimensional till DH,but in it I see her as quite normal.I liked her alot.
What you said Slylady is true,though some would argue that alot happened prior to that,that made lily change her mind.It bothers me that lily didn't know about James and Snape continuing to hex each other.Though we believe that james obviously changed alot for Lily to like him,but if she liked him in SWM then how much did he really have too change?

Agreed. What confuses me, though, is that he just called her one mean word. Just one for the first time, as far as we know. And a lot of times people get angry and say one mean word, but then they make up.

But the problem is, that word is not a personal insult, it's not like calling her what Molly called Bellatrix or something. It's a word that divides them, that sets them apart. It's like, if you have two friends from different races, the one from the more priviledges race calling the other one a racial slur. I can see why Lily was offended.

Agreed. What confuses me, though, is that he just called her one mean word. Just one for the first time, as far as we know. And a lot of times people get angry and say one mean word, but then they make up.
And JKR said in an interview that Lily loved him as a friend and could've come to love him romantically...then why would she just let him hang like that, in complete embarrassment in front of the entire school. I find that very mean.

I am such a Lily/James shipper, but I'm also having doubts about her love for James. Who was she really?

It's been a while since I was a teenage girl, but from watching my own kids during their middle school and high school years, kids have a lot of choices to make about who they want to be and who they want to hang out with. I think Lily was pretty typical, a teenage girl who was sorted into the "royal" house of Gryffindor. those kids have a pretty high opinion of themselves as the cool house, and although I find the bullying Marauders awful, at 15 maybe she saw them as popular and amusing. She was obviously attracted to James in SWM.

So Lily was choosing who she wanted to be with, and like any teenage girl, she preferred to be popular and hang out with cool people. On the other hand, she'd been friends with Severus for a long time and it must have been hard for her. So she was human, and when I think about it, that's a good thing. Saints bug me, and what I love about the HP books is that the characters are so authentically human. I feel bad for poor Severus, though.

So Lily was choosing who she wanted to be with, and like any teenage girl, she preferred to be popular and hang out with cool people. On the other hand, she'd been friends with Severus for a long time and it must have been hard for her. So she was human, and when I think about it, that's a good thing. Saints bug me, and what I love about the HP books is that the characters are so authentically human. I feel bad for poor Severus, though.

You really think it was simply decision of popularity?I'd like to think she had some morals and principles in the decision.I have to say house segregation probably played it's part.Your house plays a role in your decision,kinda how society moulds individuals.It must be hard to develop in a way contrary to your house.If your house hates Slytherins,then being friends with one is no small task.having said that a Gryffindor(debatedly more then anyone) should have the courage to stand up for they believe in.

If your house hates Slytherins,then being friends with one is no small task.having said that a Gryffindor(debatedly more then anyone) should have the courage to stand up for they believe in.
If your house hates Muggleborns, and you don't have any real friends among your housemates, then being friends with one is pretty risky. Living in Gryffindor Tower, maybe Lily didn't appreciate how hard it was for Severus. The other students in Slytherin were really horrible people. He obviously cared more than anything about Lily's friendship, not to mention wanting her to be his girlfriend. But he was a geek, and definitely not, um, HAWT. That's cynical, but while I'm sure Lily was a goodhearted girl, I wonder how much popularity in her own house was a factor in dumping Severus.

I'm not faulting her for choosing James Potter, since she was obviously attracted to him in SWM. But she was harsh with Severus and unwilling to take responsibility for her own unkindness to him. The sight of the future Death Eater, his conscience wrung because of what he'd said to her, and desperate to apologize, touched me deeply.

Realistically, I can't see how they could have maintained their friendship for the rest of their time at Hogwarts, but it bugs me that she didn't accept his heartfelt apology or considered that she did anything wrong in SWM. Having known him so long, and knowing the wretched home he came from, she was smart enough to know how imp[ortant her friendship was to him, and she was very cold.

But the problem is, that word is not a personal insult, it's not like calling her what Molly called Bellatrix or something. It's a word that divides them, that sets them apart. It's like, if you have two friends from different races, the one from the more priviledges race calling the other one a racial slur. I can see why Lily was offended.

But Snape is a half-blood, so he really is in the same boat as Lily.

If your house hates Muggleborns, and you don't have any real friends among your housemates, then being friends with one is pretty risky.
I'm not faulting her for choosing James Potter, since she was obviously attracted to him in SWM.

True.Someone made a comment on how she was being kinda unreasonable asking Severus to leave his friends(and basically his whole house).

I still don't think she was attracted to James in SWM.If she was to,it would make her completely hypocritical.

True.Someone made a comment on how she was being kinda unreasonable asking Severus to leave his friends(and basically his whole house).
If they ever talked about house things, Lily might have discovered that Severus went along in order to survive, but I can't imagine he was cool and popular in Slytherin. He was a half blood, he was poor and had no social skills. But I don't think he wanted to look pathetic to her, so he wouldn't have spoken about his social outcast-hood to her. Lily was obviously pretty and social, and made friends in her house. I imagine that if she'd wanted to, she could have figured it out anyway. She knew what his home life was like before they went to school, although Severus didn't want to dish the whole miserable story.

I still don't think she was attracted to James in SWM.If she was to, it would make her completely hypocritical.
It doesn't make me happy to say it, since that was her childhood friend being tormented in SWM, but most of Lily's attention is on James even before Snape calls her the 'M' word. She spends far more time bantering about why she won't go out with James than she does trying to get Severus out of the situation.

But he was a geek, and definitely not, um, HAWT. That's cynical, but while I'm sure Lily was a goodhearted girl, I wonder how much popularity in her own house was a factor in dumping Severus.
I'd say that if Lily was concerned with her own popularity, she'd have dumped Snape looooong before 5th year!

I'm not faulting her for choosing James Potter, since she was obviously attracted to him in SWM. But she was harsh with Severus and unwilling to take responsibility for her own unkindness to him. The sight of the future Death Eater, his conscience wrung because of what he'd said to her, and desperate to apologize, touched me deeply.
But the crux of the matter is that Snape wouldn't abandon his Death Eater ways. We are not talking about a lifestyle choice here. Death Eaters do truly evil things. How could a sensible and principled girl like Lily stand by and watch her friend sinking into that sort of evil without trying to stop him? If you had a friend who joined a racist gang that went around torturing people for fun and wanted to wipe out your entire family, what would you do?

Lily's reasons for breaking her friendship off with Snape was a bit understandable. In SWM, when Snape calls her a Mudblood, at that point I think Lily was realizing who he really was. Snape was no longer the childhood friend she knew, but a prejudiced adolescent aspiring to become a Death Eater. That insult was a wakeup call to her senses. Honestly, how many people would continue to have a friendship with someone who wanted to be apart of an army threatening the lives of innocent Muggles and Muggle Borns alike? Snape was all for what Voldemort was doing and she couldn't be friends with a person who believed such acts were fine. Everything he was hoping to become was against her morals.
That's what I assumed, anyway.

Lily's reasons for breaking her friendship off with Snape was a bit understandable. In SWM, when Snape calls her a Mudblood, at that point I think Lily was realizing who he really was. Snape was no longer the childhood friend she knew, but a prejudiced adolescent aspiring to become a Death Eater. That insult was a wakeup call to her senses. Honestly, how many people would continue to have a friendship with someone who wanted to be apart of an army threatening the lives of innocent Muggles and Muggle Borns alike? Snape was all for what Voldemort was doing and she couldn't be friends with a person who believed such acts were fine. Everything he was hoping to become was against her morals.
That's what I assumed, anyway. We don't have canon for Lily's political ideas when she's a student, but we do have her words about Hogwarts house rivalries and how angry she was about what Mulciber had done. Considering that she'd been watching James and his crowd torment her childhood friend while no one stood up for him, I wonder what she was thinking.

Harry got the truth about James and his friends when he witnessed SWM, and in fact, the second time around, Harry had no wish to watch that ugly episode again. But Lily, although she began by trying to intervene, seemed to give far more attention to the bully, rather than the victim who was also her childhood best friend.

I don't believe Snape was hoping to become what you describe. I think he was doing what he had to, to survive in Slytherin. If he was really accepted and had friends, he wouldn't have felt the need to sleep outside the Gryffindor portrait hole to try to apologize to her.

I asked this once before, could we please avoid the word torment in regard to SWM? We all agree that James' and Sirius' actions were wrong but this word seems to be very loaded with connotations that go beyond what happened in this scene.

I asked this once before, could we please avoid the word torment in regard to SWM? We all agree that James' and Sirius' actions were wrong but this word seems to be very loaded with connotations that go beyond what happened in this scene.
I'm sorry. I didn't realize that torment is an unacceptable word. Is there a more acceptable one that I can use? Because there are different interpretations of what occurred in SWM and I thought it fit.

I'm sorry. I didn't realize that torment is an unacceptable word. Is there a more acceptable one that I can use? Because there are different interpretations of what occurred in SWM and I thought it fit.

it's just inflammatory. Tensions are obviously high in a lot of the threads right now, so a little thought into how things are worded can go a long way :)

We don't have canon for Lily's political ideas when she's a student, but we do have her words about Hogwarts house rivalries and how angry she was about what Mulciber had done.

She was definitely angry at Mulciber and Avery's acts. She sounded disgusted when she was saying that Snape wanted to become a DE (along with his "friends"), so I assume that she was against Voldemort.

I don't believe Snape was hoping to become what you describe.

He certainly did want to become a DE, even if it wasn't because he truly believed in Voldemort's ideas. His insecurities and need to be impressive drove him to join the DE. Plus, he thought becoming one would impress Lily....

I asked this once before, could we please avoid the word torment in regard to SWM? We all agree that James' and Sirius' actions were wrong but this word seems to be very loaded with connotations that go beyond what happened in this scene.

Actually, according to the dictionary (since so many people like to quote it around here) torment would be a perfectly acceptable word.


1.to afflict with great bodily or mental suffering; pain: to be tormented with violent headaches.
2.to worry or annoy excessively: to torment one with questions.
3.to throw into commotion; stir up; disturb. –noun
4.a state of great bodily or mental suffering; agony; misery.
5.something that causes great bodily or mental pain or suffering.
6.a source of much trouble, worry, or annoyance.
7.an instrument of torture, as the rack or the thumbscrew.
8.the infliction of torture by means of such an instrument or the torture so inflicted.

I think number four, five, and six apply to SWM, possibly others as well. I don't mean to argue a point for the sake of it, but rather because I think torment is a perfectly acceptable word choice.

Harry actually describes SWM as torment:

After lying in bed for a while thinking about the day ahead, Harry got up very quietly and moved across to the window beside Nevilles bed, and stared out on a truly glorious morning. The sky was a clear, misty, opalescent blue. Directly ahead of him, Harry could see the towering beech tree below which his father had once tormented Snape.

Dumbledore got to his feet and walked past Harry to the black cabinet that stood beside Fawkes's perch. He bent down, slid back a catch and took from inside it the shallow stone basin, carved with runes around the edges, in which Harry had seen his father tormenting Snape.

Thank you to everyone who looked up those quotes but you're missing the point. These threads are highly volatile and we're asking people to think about how they phrase things so that tempers can flare just a teeny tiny bit less than a nuclear explosion. I would apply this to calling Snape a racist the same way, but the example at hand happens to be torment.

Can we just pretend to try so that I can hold on to the small hope that I'll still have hair to pull out a month from now?

Well, in any case, if all fails we can pull together and start up a fundraiser to buy you a wig! :p

And I guess I just don't see what the problem with the word choice is. I mean, #1 its canon, and #2 its not that inflamitory. I mean, it isn't as if anyone said they tortured Snape. (Which is actually a word I tend to use, although, for the sake of Jessica's receding hairline, I'll put that on hold. ;))

I don't see how it can be character bashing when it is canon... *is very confused* Did someone get offened by the word usage?

You can tear out my hair, Jessica! It may help me win my ongoing battle with it! 8D

Wimble- No, I don't think anyone said anything about the word. Though perhaps there was a post reported...?


I doubt that anyone would get upset if someone said that Snape was a racist, because it's in canon that yes, as a young man, he was.

What substitute would you suggest, Jessica? "Bullied" sounds like the best bet, IMO.

What substitute would you suggest, Jessica? "Bullied" sounds like the best bet, IMO.

Bullied is just fine :)

Jessica: With all due respect, didn't Morgoth say we could quote canon now? And why is it our responsibility to use words other than the canon to describe what we are talking about?

At some point, I'm sorry, but I don't see why we are responsible if people don't like the canon?

Snape was a racist at one time, and that's canon. But he changed. Is it our responsibility if people don't believe that? No. If it's in the canon that he told Phineas Nigellus not to use the word "Mudblood" then we have to assume he changed, and we know he did.

Is there a time period of transition during which we can't use the actual canon, while others get used to the idea? Because, frankly, it just seems rather silly.

Jessica: With all due respect, didn't Morgoth say we could quote canon now? And why is it our responsibility to use words other than the canon to describe what we are talking about?

At some point, I'm sorry, but I don't see why we are responsible if people don't like the canon?

Snape was a racist at one time, and that's canon. But he changed. Is it our responsibility if people don't believe that? No. If it's in the canon that he told Phineas Nigellus not to use the word "Mudblood" then we have to assume he changed, and we know he did.

Is there a time period of transition during which we can't use the actual canon, while others get used to the idea? Because, frankly, it just seems rather silly.Maybe we shouldn't focus the Lily Thread on Snape, maybe we can talk about Lily.

With that said I found Lily as one of the most flawless characters in the entire series. Did she have flaws that just weren't showed a lot? Or did we never see any?

Maybe we shouldn't focus the Lily Thread on Snape, maybe we can talk about Lily.

But see, I have problems with this, because I don't see them just as seprate characters who float in their own characterizations of each other, but rather as a group of people whos actions, thoughts, and personal evolutions come from each other.

So asking me, and others who think in the same way I do, to only mention one particular character is really hard.

But, I'm really not adding anything to the discussion right now... it must be getting close to midnight when I lost all coherency. *yawns and goes to bed*

1 Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

I don't know that it impacted her relationship with the magical world as a whole that much except that before she went to Hogwarts at least she knew she wasn't alone in being able to do things that most other people can't do. It allowed her to be open to the idea of Hogwarts instead of being shocked by it.

2 Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

I think if Dudley had been born with magical powers that might have been something that could have mended the tear between the two sisters. It's a shame that Petunia's jealousy caused her to close herself off from Lily because it's clear they did love each other as children.

3 Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

Those who did the right thing, not becuase they had to be because they wanted to because it was simply the right thing to do. She also would not have not been friends with someone simply because they weren't as smart as she was or as pretty as she was. She would have been friends with almost anyone I think.

4 According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

That she was her own person and she didn't just follow people she made up her own mind.

5 Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

Because she knew deep down that he did see mudbloods as inferior to him and others with pure blood in them and I think she feared that eventually he would turn on her as well, especially if he continued to be friends with the likes of Avery and Mulciber.

But Snape is a half-blood, so he really is in the same boat as Lily.

Not really - he became a Death Eater after all, so it wasn't the same. And we see in DH that when the Trio are caught by the Snatchers and Hermione is asked about her blood-status, she cries "Half-blood!" and they don't seem like they've caught anything usable, so half-bloods are definitely not in the same position. We see the same sort of thing in the Ministry of magic, where a man was crying that he was actually a Half-blood, and not Muggle-born. So calling your Muggle-born friend a Mudblood does set you apart, and Severus knew the amgnitude of the insult, as we see - he knows he has to go to great lengths in order to apologise.

Not really - he became a Death Eater after all, so it wasn't the same. And we see in DH that when the Trio are caught by the Snatchers and Hermione is asked about her blood-status, she cries "Half-blood!" and they don't seem like they've caught anything usable, so half-bloods are definitely not in the same position. We see the same sort of thing in the Ministry of magic, where a man was crying that he was actually a Half-blood, and not Muggle-born. So calling your Muggle-born friend a Mudblood does set you apart, and Severus knew the amgnitude of the insult, as we see - he knows he has to go to great lengths in order to apologise.

Voldemort was a half-blood as well, and look how different he was from everyone.
I half-like Lily and I half-don't. There are times when I question her character because a simple word made her break a longtime friendship...But I just like pretending. :whistle:

<3

There are times when I question her character because a simple word made her break a longtime friendship...But I just like pretending. :whistle:<3
It wasn't just a word, Lily indicates that she's been uncomfortable with his Death Eater leanings for a long time, and has genuine problems with the school of thought Snape seems to subscribe to. Clearly, there's been trouble brewing in that relationship for a long time, if she says she's been making excuses for him for years (not 'ages', mind you- 'years', the only question being, how many?)
If she had one quality that I could consider less than perfect, it's a slightly Hermione-esque tendency to lecture people. And a bit of a short fuse (that makes two qualities, right?). So she's a lovable girl, but no saint, and certainly not evil for severing (oops, unintended pun) all ties with Snape after the day he called her a you-know-what.

I half-like Lily and I half-don't. There are times when I question her character because a simple word made her break a longtime friendship...But I just like pretending.

It wasn't just a simple word, it amounted to a disgusting racial slur; the type Draco used to direct at Hermione. It is clear though, that even before this, their friendship was on shaky ground and they were heading in two different directions.

It wasn't just a simple word, it amounted to a disgusting racial slur; the type Draco used to direct at Hermione. It is clear though, that even before this, their friendship was on shaky ground and they were heading in two different directions.

I agree. Though Mudblood is only a word, it definitely meant a lot back then. Voldemort and his Death Eaters were of the belief that Muggle Borns were scum, just like Muggles and Squibs. If someone whom you believe is you friend says that ... well it hurts. Snape calling her a Mudblood was a turning point, and Lily could no longer be friends with him.

I agree. Though Mudblood is only a word, it definitely meant a lot back then. Voldemort and his Death Eaters were of the belief that Muggle Borns were scum, just like Muggles and Squibs. If someone whom you believe is you friend says that ... well it hurts. Snape calling her a Mudblood was a turning point, and Lily could no longer be friends with him.You see Lily questioning Snape and she asks if they call other Muggleborns "Mudbloods" then why wouldn't she be one? She knew Snape cared for her, but she also knew how he thought about people. And he did think Muggleborns were "Mudbloods" with the exception of Lily, and that made no sense.

You see Lily questioning Snape and she asks if they call other Muggleborns "Mudbloods" then why wouldn't she be one? She knew Snape cared for her, but she also knew how he thought about people. And he did think Muggleborns were "Mudbloods" with the exception of Lily, and that made no sense.

Exactly and I am sure it confused teen Lily as well. Why should he be able to look past the fact that she was muggle born but couldn't do it for anyone else. Lily seemed like such a fair and open minded person that that kind of thinking surely would have given her reason to question the kind of person Snape was.

I asked this once before, could we please avoid the word torment in regard to SWM? We all agree that James' and Sirius' actions were wrong but this word seems to be very loaded with connotations that go beyond what happened in this scene.

But the word was actually used in the text by Harry to refer to the scene. Is that just a request for the moment, and will there be a time period after which we can use the canon of what Harry thought of the matter? The word is certainly loaded with connotations, but I don't think they go beyond what happened in the scene...

I agree. Though Mudblood is only a word, it definitely meant a lot back then. Voldemort and his Death Eaters were of the belief that Muggle Borns were scum, just like Muggles and Squibs. If someone whom you believe is you friend says that ... well it hurts. Snape calling her a Mudblood was a turning point, and Lily could no longer be friends with him.

Remember when the word "Mudblood" was first introduced in CoS? It was really shocking when Malfoy called Hermione a Mudblood - Ron tried to hex Malfoy, and when Hagrid heard about it later he was outraged too. As the books went on, the word was used more often, and lost most of its shock value, but it remains a very nasty word. And worse than the word itself, is the ideology behind it! Some words are more than "just a word" and "Mudblood" is one of them (most of the others are banned on CoS!).

Remember when the word "Mudblood" was first introduced in CoS? It was really shocking when Malfoy called Hermione a Mudblood - Ron tried to hex Malfoy, and when Hagrid heard about it later he was outraged too. As the books went on, the word was used more often, and lost most of its shock value, but it remains a very nasty word. And worse than the word itself, is the ideology behind it! Some words are more than "just a word" and "Mudblood" is one of them (most of the others are banned on CoS!).

:agree: There are racial slurs in our world, too, and they're not taken that lightly, as far as I can tell. It's understandable why Lily would be upset.

:agree: There are racial slurs in our world, too, and they're not taken that lightly, as far as I can tell. It's understandable why Lily would be upset.

There's terrible bullying in our world too, that causes damage to victims that lasts a lifetime too. It disturbs me that Lily watched James abuse Snape for the entertainment of his best friend, and gave most of her attention to James, rather than effectively doing something to stop him.

If she was attracted to James then, and I believe she was, that's fine, but I question her judgment of him, if she can just walk away.

She may have been furious with Snape, but what James was doing was vicious and wrong, and she essentially condones it because her feelings are hurt. This is not the act of a flawless Saint Lily, but of a pretty typical teenage girl who decided to do the right thing while it was easy, but didn't help the situation at all.

She may have been furious with Snape, but what James was doing was vicious and wrong, and she essentially condones it because her feelings are hurt. This is not the act of a flawless Saint Lily, but of a pretty typical teenage girl who decided to do the right thing while it was easy, but didn't help the situation at all.

Well, to be honest, if I was standing up for someone (and she seemed to be the only one out of hoards of people), and they then shot such a derogatory term at me, I would walk away too. The fact that that person was a supposed friend would have made me blind with fury, and I would have done a lot more then call Sanpe 'Snivilles' and walk away.

Lily in general, is far too sainted a character, so anything that makes her a more human character is good in my eyes.

There's terrible bullying in our world too, that causes damage to victims that lasts a lifetime too. It disturbs me that Lily watched James abuse Snape for the entertainment of his best friend, and gave most of her attention to James, rather than effectively doing something to stop him.

I seem to be reading something rather different...because in my edition of the book (UK, page 570-571), James stopped the Scourgify spell he was using when Lily started shouting, and let him back down onto the ground- AFTER she drew her wand on James (who'd had his face gashed open by Snape, by that time) and told him (James) to take the curse off.
I don't see why Lily must be blamed for James's actions, given that she did put at least a temporary stop to them. And note, she also didn't say a word to Snape about the Sectumsempra curse he used, which I'd say is capable of inflicting much worse injuries than just being hung upside down or spitting soap bubbles.

I seem to be reading something rather different...because in my edition of the book (UK, page 570-571), James stopped the Scourgify spell he was using when Lily started shouting, and let him back down onto the ground- AFTER she drew her wand on James (who'd had his face gashed open by Snape, by that time) and told him to take the curse off.
I don't see why Lily must be blamed for James's actions, given that she did put at least a temporary stop to them. And note, she also didn't say a word to Snape about the Sectumsempra curse he used, which I'd say is capable of inflicting much worse injuries than just being hung upside down or spitting soap bubbles.

Yeah, we've seen what Sectumsempra can do! My reading of the incident is that Lily really did try to put a stop to the attack, but stopped when Snape rejected her help so rudely. Lily isn't Hermione - she has enough sense to know when her help isn't wanted and enough self-respect to withdraw it!

A random Lily question (sorry if it has been covered)

Do you think that her doe patronus changed because of James? Do you think it's just naturally a Doe, matching James Stag to underline that they were made for each other?

There's terrible bullying in our world too, that causes damage to victims that lasts a lifetime too. It disturbs me that Lily watched James abuse Snape for the entertainment of his best friend, and gave most of her attention to James, rather than effectively doing something to stop him.

If she was attracted to James then, and I believe she was, that's fine, but I question her judgment of him, if she can just walk away.

She may have been furious with Snape, but what James was doing was vicious and wrong, and she essentially condones it because her feelings are hurt. This is not the act of a flawless Saint Lily, but of a pretty typical teenage girl who decided to do the right thing while it was easy, but didn't help the situation at all.

I see what your saying Sly-lady ,that he attempt to help Snape was half-hearted and maybe not that of a true best friends(you make a good point at the amount of attention she was giving james though).She did at one point pull out her wand,but Snapes insult seemed to come as a surprise to her.I wonder if at any point she later regretted just leaving him there?

I see what your saying Sly-lady ,that he attempt to help Snape was half-hearted and maybe not that of a true best friends(you make a good point at the amount of attention she was giving james though).She did at one point pull out her wand,but Snapes insult seemed to come as a surprise to her.I wonder if at any point she later regretted just leaving him there?

I think you have a point when it comes to being her best friend because it would be difficult to imagine Snape having Sirius strung up and James walking away under any circumstances.

However, I think the distinction is that you wouldn't expect your best friend to say 'I don't need help from filthy Mudbloods like her' in the midst of you trying to assist them.

For instance, in contrast, it is hard to imagine James taking up for Sirius and Sirius saying something like that to James while he is defending him. Or a second contrast, Ron saying something like that to Hermione while she is defending him (even when they were in one of their mega arguments and feeling hateful toward one another).

I think that is why Lily walked away in the end. I think the comment was very hurtful to her on several levels. 1. It is a terrible racial slur that has a lot of meaning behind it; 2. her best friend said it to her when he has always said it doesn't matter to him; 3. she was defending him at the time, wand at the ready and James had said 'don't make me hex you, Evans' so it was obvious she was in possible danger of being hexed.

I think that is why she didn't regret walking away. IMO it was a pretty normal reaction to even a momentary betrayal by a friend.

While I respect that some may have the idea that Lily was in the wrong, IMO, she reacted in an expected way.

For instance, in contrast, it is hard to imagine James taking up for Sirius and Sirius saying something like that to James while he is defending him. Or a second contrast, Ron saying something like that to Hermione while she is defending him (even when they were in one of their mega arguments and feeling hateful toward one another).

At the same time Hermione or James wouldn't beat around the bush about rescuing Ron or Sirius, they would actually do it! In Snape's eyes Lily is the one who always talks about Severus' friends, and how Dark they are, but how James, in contrast, isn't that bad. Then she goes, finds Snape being bullied, and simply starts bantering with James.

To Snape, this probably doesn't look like she is helping him at all. I'm sure he was getting upset, because she is watching him get bullied and yet isn't really doing anything. And, it doesn't even look like she is changing her mind about James being 'dark'.

In all honesty, had that been me I probably would have blown up at her too. What I find interesting is that Snape is ready to applogize and take all the blame, and he never once comments on Lily's inaction or her 'flirting' with James while he's choking on soap suds.

To Snape, this probably doesn't look like she is helping him at all. I'm sure he was getting upset, because she is watching him get bullied and yet isn't really doing anything. And, it doesn't even look like she is changing her mind about James being 'dark'.

So Lily is supposed to sink down to the levels that both Snape and James have reached by using hexes and jinxes? Let's remember that a lot is at stake here other than James's and Snape's egos. She is the one Gryffindor willing to defy her own house (as represented by James) and take for a Slytherin (as represented by Snape). That must be a very uncomfortable position. So she does the best she can with out resorting to violence. She wasn't bantering with James. She was trying to shame him into doing the right thing, and when this failed she did draw her wand to show she meant business, and gave James one last chance...then Snape lost it and called her a foul name rejecting her help. What was she suppose to do? Rescue him anyway?

Let's remember that levicorpus was more than likely Snape's invention. After the slur Lily may have thought that it served him right that he had his own spell used against him. Maybe it would smarten him up that weapons developed against some people may actually come back to bite you in the butt.

I don't think she should have hexed James, but rather un-hexed Snape. I mean, how hard would have be. Finite Incantatum. And Snape is down, and able to defend himself again.

I don't think she should have hexed James, but rather un-hexed Snape. I mean, how hard would have be. Finite Incantatum. And Snape is down, and able to defend himself again.

Yep, he would have defended himself--possiby with another sectumsempra. So Lily is supposed to let her friend use even more dark magic? Was she supposed to stand there while they dueled? Had she managed to get James to let him down, she may have been able to get Snape to come with her and James would not have dared attck Snape again if he was right next to Lily. She did what she thought was the best at the time. She was not showing preferrential treatment towards James.

She was not showing preferrential treatment towards James.

No I don't think she was at all. If fact if Snape hadn't insulted her, I am sure she would have just, left with him when James put him down.

I don't think she should have hexed James, but rather un-hexed Snape. I mean, how hard would have be. Finite Incantatum. And Snape is down, and able to defend himself again.

Whether it was right of her or not, I think Lily really wanted to see James do the right thing himself. We know she had a slight crush on him at this point and was waiting for him to mature...so it was a bit like a test: was he willing to leave Snape alone for her? Was he ready to grow up for her?

Whether it was right of her or not, I think Lily really wanted to see James do the right thing himself. We know she had a slight crush on him at this point and was waiting for him to mature...so it was a bit like a test: was he willing to leave Snape alone for her? Was he ready to grow up for her?

So she is pretty much using Snape to see if she and James should get together? Again, I would have done the same thing Snape did if a friend used me like that.

So she is pretty much using Snape to see if she and James should get together? Again, I would have done the same thing Snape did if a friend used me like that.

Well, the fact that she liked James was mostly subconscious at that point. I agree that Snape's reaction was understandable given the situation. But I don't think we're supposed to doubt Lily's good intentions. If some people don't consider them to be good, that is the fault of JKR for not portraying them clearly enough, not the fault of Lily the character, because I get the idea that she's meant to be almost-perfect.

So she is pretty much using Snape to see if she and James should get together? Again, I would have done the same thing Snape did if a friend used me like that.

One could say that she is unfairly testing James because she knows that he and Snape have a bad history. ..but we know this isn't true. We know she wasn't using Snape, we know she wasn't being unfair in her demands of James. She was doing what she thought was right. I think SWM makes it very clear what JKR wanted us to understand about the three of them. She wanted to humanize (not demonize) James, she wanted to show Lily in a good light so we can see that Harry had some of these wonderful characteristics, and she wanted to give Snape motivation. To mke Lily out to be some sort of schemer, liar, or bad friend, would simply undermine the whole story...

You know, now that I've read those posts, it does seem strange that Lily wouldn't have done more to help Snape out. But I'm quite happy that Lily didn't do anything because she seems so ... perfect. Lily is a character who is supposed to have flaws and make mistakes, and this was definitely one of them.

I'm sure he was getting upset, because she is watching him get bullied and yet isn't really doing anything. And, it doesn't even look like she is changing her mind about James being 'dark'.
But she never thought James was 'dark', just arrogant. And I seem to recall that she drew her wand on him in that scene, following which he let Snape back down- and a drawn wand in the wizarding world is always a sign of action to follow. I'd say that constitutes doing something..
And from what precise point of view can James and Lily's interaction in the Pensieve be considered 'flirting' on her part?

Do you think that her doe patronus changed because of James? Do you think it's just naturally a Doe, matching James Stag to underline that they were made for each other?
I kind of think that Lily's was always a doe and James was always a stag showing that they were fated. Anyway I think its really romantic.

That's what I thought too, that their Patronuses were always a stag and doe, to show us that despite their early disagreements they were in fact perfect for each other.

Well, the fact that she liked James was mostly subconscious at that point. I agree that Snape's reaction was understandable given the situation. But I don't think we're supposed to doubt Lily's good intentions. If some people don't consider them to be good, that is the fault of JKR for not portraying them clearly enough, not the fault of Lily the character, because I get the idea that she's meant to be almost-perfect.
Ouch! JKR wrote what she wrote and if we don't like it, it's not her fault as an author. She wrote flawed characters, one and all, and I think that's the power of the series. We can relate to these magical people because they are so human, not because they're bigger and better than we are.

Lily'd sacrifice in dying, rather than standing aside to let Voldemort kill her son was indeed courageous, and led many of us to believe she was better and purer than other characters.

But in DH, we see a very typical pretty, bright and popular teenage girl who is far from flawless. She does have good intentions, as do pretty much all the characters except the Marauders in that scene. But she doesn't follow through on them, she lets her own offended feeling make her do the easy thing, insult the victim of abuse and walk away. The right thing to do, and I don't know how many teenagers would have the guts to do it, would have been to help the victim in some meaningful way and not get distracted into chatting with the lead bully about why you won't date him.

When Severus goes to her, his only real friend, desperate to apologize for what he'd said, she rejects him coldly. She never seems to think she has anything in her conduct to apologize to her former best friend about, does she? Yet she's known him since they were young children, knows he's vulnerable better than anyone on earth, and she dumps him nastily.

I also don't question her choosing to date and marry James, but I do question what it was that made her think he was any less a bully than Mulciber or Avery. So I think her judgement wasn't great either.

This takes nothing away from her love for Harry or her courage in dying. She was immensely brave.

But she never thought James was 'dark', just arrogant. And I seem to recall that she drew her wand on him in that scene, following which he let Snape back down- and a drawn wand in the wizarding world is always a sign of action to follow. I'd say that constitutes doing something..
And from what precise point of view can James and Lily's interaction in the Pensieve be considered 'flirting' on her part?

I figure that’s true, and James looked at Lily's wand warily, so he must have been apprehensive enough, that she could have delivered a pretty nasty hex if she choose to.

Slughorn said that she was cheeky and feisty anyway.

I kind of think that Lily's was always a doe and James was always a stag showing that they were fated. Anyway I think its really romantic.

JKR said in her online chat, that they had similar ones; because your Patronus can change go reflect the love of your life. I figure that James’ or Lily's (or both) changed as result of their bond. However, they were together by the time they joined the order so they probably didn't have one, or know what form it would take, before that.

But she doesn't follow through on them, she lets her own offended feeling make her do the easy thing, insult the victim of abuse and walk away. The right thing to do, and I don't know how many teenagers would have the guts to do it, would have been to help the victim in some meaningful way and not get distracted into chatting with the lead bully about why you won't date him.
I've said it before, she threatened to hex him, her wand was out and drawn. And James did lift the curse on her orders, which amounts to action taken by her to put a stop to it. And Snape wasn't hanging upside down when he insulted her, or when she walked away.


When Severus goes to her, his only real friend, desperate to apologize for what he'd said, she rejects him coldly. She never seems to think she has anything in her conduct to apologize to her former best friend about, does she? Yet she's known him since they were young children, knows he's vulnerable better than anyone on earth, and she dumps him nastily.
He'd just called her a disgusting racial epithet, something we don't see as horrible because it isn't in real-world use, but which has been known to shock people in Harry's world whenever it's being said- that too under no more provocation than the fact of her trying to stop him being bullied.
And what on earth is there for her to apologise to Snape about? They might have been childhood friends, but she makes it clear that insulting her was something that wasn't an isolated incident, it followed in the wake of other things about him she was clearly uncomfortable with, his constantly hanging around Death Eaters for a start- something she'd warned him about before. And mind you, the insult wasn't even necessary- if he'd just said "I don't need help from her!" instead of slipping in the 'Mudblood' comment, it might have been different, but think of what a furore gets caused by racial slurs in our time (Celebrity Big Brother this year being just the start of it...).

I also don't question her choosing to date and marry James, but I do question what it was that made her think he was any less a bully than Mulciber or Avery. So I think her judgement wasn't great either.
She objected to the fact that they tried to hurt her dorm-mate (I presume) using Dark magic. And really, I'd think likening James to Mulciber and Avery is a bit extreme, but it really isn't about Lily.

I've said it before, she threatened to hex him, her wand was out and drawn. And James did lift the curse on her orders, which amounts to action taken by her to put a stop to it. And Snape wasn't hanging upside down when he insulted her, or when she walked away.


He'd just called her a disgusting racial epithet, something we don't see as horrible because it isn't in real-world use, but which has been known to shock people in Harry's world whenever it's being said- that too under no more provocation than the fact of her trying to stop him being bullied.
And what on earth is there for her to apologise to Snape about? They might have been childhood friends, but she makes it clear that insulting her was something that wasn't an isolated incident, it followed in the wake of other things about him she was clearly uncomfortable with, his constantly hanging around Death Eaters for a start- something she'd warned him about before. And mind you, the insult wasn't even necessary- if he'd just said "I don't need help from her!" instead of slipping in the 'Mudblood' comment, it might have been different, but think of what a furore gets caused by racial slurs in our time (Celebrity Big Brother this year being just the start of it...).


She objected to the fact that they tried to hurt her dorm-mate (I presume) using Dark magic. And really, I'd think likening James to Mulciber and Avery is a bit extreme, but it really isn't about Lily.

'Ear 'Ear, couldn't agree more.

Now, if anyone feels like a slightly less contentious discussion is in order: what do you think Lily's relations with the other Marauders were like? She was in on their secret, possibly the only person outside of Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs themselves to know about it- it clearly indicates that they trusted her, and the affectionate tone of her letter to Sirius sounds like something she addressed to a person she saw as her friend, not just James's friend- clearly, she'd gotten over her initial disapproval of him by the time they were out of school :)

Now, if anyone feels like a slightly less contentious discussion is in order: what do you think Lily's relations with the other Marauders were like? She was in on their secret, possibly the only person outside of Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs themselves to know about it- it clearly indicates that they trusted her, and the affectionate tone of her letter to Sirius sounds like something she addressed to a person she saw as her friend, not just James's friend- clearly, she'd gotten over her initial disapproval of him by the time they were out of school :)

I think she became quite fond of them all. She mentions Peter's depressed state and is friendly with Sirius. Remus wasn't around then, but he speaks of her to Harry in such a way that denotes fondness in POA which if they didn't get along he would not likely do.

Ouch! JKR wrote what she wrote and if we don't like it, it's not her fault as an author. She wrote flawed characters, one and all, and I think that's the power of the series. We can relate to these magical people because they are so human, not because they're bigger and better than we are.

Well, I like the way Lily is portrayed...it's not so much that I am blaming JKR, I shouldn't have said "fault"...but other people seem to dislike Lily a lot, and that strikes me as a bit odd. I agree with you, actually. I know she wasn't perfect, but I don't like attempts to vilify her.

I think she became quite fond of them all. She mentions Peter's depressed state and is friendly with Sirius. Remus wasn't around then, but he speaks of her to Harry in such a way that denotes fondness in POA which if they didn't get along he would not likely do.

JKR said Remus had a crush on her but didn't compete with James. I think Lily and Remus had a pretty close relationship because they seem to have compatible personalities to me....We know of Lily as being very smart, and Remus was the bookish type...also, he was the one Marauder who made Sirius and James feel ashamed of themselves. I think she was friends with Lupin before the others.

Added to which, they were the Gryffindor prefects for their year- it'd have provided them with a fair bit of scope for Marauder-free interaction.

JKR said Remus had a crush on her but didn't compete with James. I think Lily and Remus had a pretty close relationship because they seem to have compatible personalities to me....We know of Lily as being very smart, and Remus was the bookish type...also, he was the one Marauder who made Sirius and James feel ashamed of themselves. I think she was friends with Lupin before the others.
I completly agree and I would love to read more about Lily's relationship with all of the marauders so maybe Jk will put something about that in the enclyopedia. I think Lily thought of Remus as a deep friend and maybe even a confidant (sp?) who she would complain about Sirius and James's behaviour LOL! I think her relationship with Sirius would have been fun to read about. I can picture Lily seeing him as a fun older brother and of course they probably fought like a brother and sister fight but over all telling from the letter they were probably really close. As for Peter I think she felt like an older protective sister with him. The dynamic would be really fun to see I think.

JKR said Remus had a crush on her but didn't compete with James. I think Lily and Remus had a pretty close relationship because they seem to have compatible personalities to me....We know of Lily as being very smart, and Remus was the bookish type...also, he was the one Marauder who made Sirius and James feel ashamed of themselves. I think she was friends with Lupin before the others.

I agree. Remus was the one who matured much faster than the others, and Lily would've much appreciated being around Remus than the other Marauders. Plus, in SWM, he's the only Marauder to not enjoy Snape's treatment by James. I can imagine Lily and Remus being good friends.

I agree with the last 3 posts, but JKR didn't say Lupin had a crush on Lily. She said: "Lupin was very fond of Lily, we'll put it like that, but I wouldn't want anyone to run around thinking that he competed with James for her." (interview w/ Melissa @ Leaky Cauldron). I think all of the Marauders were fond of Lily by the time James and she married.

I agree with the last 3 posts, but JKR didn't say Lupin had a crush on Lily. She said: "Lupin was very fond of Lily, we'll put it like that, but I wouldn't want anyone to run around thinking that he competed with James for her. She was a popular girl, and that is relevant. But I think you've seen that already. She was a bit of a catch." (interview w/ Melissa @ Leaky Cauldron). I think all of the Marauders were fond of Lily by the time James and she married.

Yes.She didn't say he had feeling for her.I can see her being kind to peter.and I'm sure her and Remus got along.It might have taken a little longer for Sirius to grow on her but I think her letter shows they were friends.

I agree with the last 3 posts, but JKR didn't say Lupin had a crush on Lily. She said: "Lupin was very fond of Lily, we'll put it like that, but I wouldn't want anyone to run around thinking that he competed with James for her." (interview w/ Melissa @ Leaky Cauldron). I think all of the Marauders were fond of Lily by the time James and she married.

I think that was what she meant, though: he was a little fonder of Lily than Sirius and Peter. I know he wasn't in love with her, which I guess is why JKR was careful with her words, because she didn't want anyone to get that idea. But I don't think it's such a big deal for Remus to be attracted to Lily as so many boys were.

I think she became quite fond of them all. She mentions Peter's depressed state and is friendly with Sirius. Remus wasn't around then, but he speaks of her to Harry in such a way that denotes fondness in POA which if they didn't get along he would not likely do.

He spoke about her in the film, but I don't think he ever even mentions her in the book (POA). I do think they got on though: JKR said that Remus was fond of her. I would say, that from Lily's conversation with Snape in DH, that she liked him too, because she was very resistant to Snape and his questions about Lupin.


I agree. Remus was the one who matured much faster than the others, and Lily would've much appreciated being around Remus than the other Marauders. Plus, in SWM, he's the only Marauder to not enjoy Snape's treatment by James. I can imagine Lily and Remus being good friends.

I'd agree with that.

I think that was what she meant, though: he was a little fonder of Lily than Sirius and Peter. I know he wasn't in love with her, which I guess is why JKR was careful with her words, because she didn't want anyone to get that idea. But I don't think it's such a big deal for Remus to be attracted to Lily as so many boys were.

Remus may only have been fond of Lily, but there were apparently a lot of lads who had crushes on her at the time because she was "quite a catch" and "popular". I wish some of the girls I knew by that description had been as nice as Lily, lol. So from that standpoint, every guy probably had their eye on her at some point or another. But James' buddies knowing how he felt about her wouldn't likely let their feelings get carried away.

That's what I thought too, that their Patronuses were always a stag and doe, to show us that despite their early disagreements they were in fact perfect for each other.
I don't think this is a question that can be answered, because Patronuses are very advanced magic, and by the time Lily could conjure one, she was almost certainly aware of her feelings for James. The same probably goes for James's Animagus form, because he didn't learn how to transform until 5th year.

That's what I thought too, that their Patronuses were always a stag and doe, to show us that despite their early disagreements they were in fact perfect for each other.

I don't think this is a question that can be answered, because Patronuses are very advanced magic, and by the time Lily could conjure one, she was almost certainly aware of her feelings for James. The same probably goes for James's Animagus form, because he didn't learn how to transform until 5th year.

Do we even know if they even teach how to make Patronuses at Hogwarts. At least it didn't sound like it in OotP cause Katie Bell, Fred, George and Lee were all seventh years and it was Harry who was teaching them. Unless you are taught in your Seventh Year NEWTS of DADA and of course that year they had Umbridge and no way in h e double hockey stick's would she have taught them how to do those. So anyway assuming if it is taught at Hogwarts but not until their Seventh Year NEWTS I think Lily and James would have definitely known they had feelings for each other and that would definitely be why he patronus was a doe.

It's very gratifying to see Lily and James vividly displayed in Harry. He is the perfect mix of the very best of his parents.

Okay, random thought: Do you think Lily ever found out about James being an unregistered Animagus? How do you think she would've reacted?
Personally, I'd find it strange if she was with a man for 3-4 years and never found out.

Okay, random thought: Do you think Lily ever found out about James being an unregistered Animagus?
Of course she did, why would she have been addressing Sirius as Padfoot otherwise? Or be calling Peter 'Wormy'?

Yes, I believe that she knew of them being unregistered Animagus. She referred to them in her letter to Sirius by their Marauder names. But she may well have known in as early as the "prank". I think by then she knew that Remus was a werewolf. I would think that she talked about it with him, as he was in her own house (wasn't he?) and I would imagine James, Peter, and Sirius's role in his life coming out at the same time.

As far as Remus liking her...I'm sure that if he did like her romantically it was more wistful than anything. He liked to be liked and included in things and I believe that he was more than content to admire her from a distance. He loved James, and wouldn't want to hurt him, but also he probably wouldn't want to take the chance of alienating the one group where he felt accepted and loved for himself. Also, coming to think of it, to Remus Lily was probabl of that "too good to be true" nature. He falls for Tonks who is anything but perfect (look at her clumsiness and her morphing talent). In other words, Tonks was more real, and therefor, probably more Remus's type than Lily.

I agree with PH's sentiments that Harry combines the best of Lily and James (for the most part); and almost certainly Lily knew about James animagus form. However, I think she may have only found out for sure after they started dating; but she probably suspected something was up before then. She was apparently smart enough to put two and two together and know that James, Sirius, and Wormtail had an animagus form...then James might have told her or demonstrated for her what he looked like.

Yes, I believe that she knew of them being unregistered Animagus. She referred to them in her letter to Sirius by their Marauder names. But she may well have known in as early as the "prank". I think by then she knew that Remus was a werewolf. I would think that she talked about it with him, as he was in her own house (wasn't he?) and I would imagine James, Peter, and Sirius's role in his life coming out at the same time.

As far as Remus liking her...I'm sure that if he did like her romantically it was more wistful than anything. He liked to be liked and included in things and I believe that he was more than content to admire her from a distance. He loved James, and wouldn't want to hurt him, but also he probably wouldn't want to take the chance of alienating the one group where he felt accepted and loved for himself. Also, coming to think of it, to Remus Lily was probabl of that "too good to be true" nature. He falls for Tonks who is anything but perfect (look at her clumsiness and her morphing talent). In other words, Tonks was more real, and therefor, probably more Remus's type than Lily.

i don't think she knew until they were dating, in DH when Snape was said there was something wierd about the Lupin boy and he said he get's sick every month at full moon she merely said "I know about you theory." Keep in mind that this was after the prank, she sincerly thought that James had saved Snape's life.

Well, James had saved Snape's life, and the conversation between her and Snape that followed it's easy to infer that Lily guessed Remus was a werewolf but didn't care much for Snape's view on the matter. The Animagus forms of James, Sirius and Peter, however, probably weren't found out by her till she started dating James.

I'd say that Lily definitely knew about the Marauders' Animagus forms, because in her letter she addressed Sirius as Padfoot. It's hard to say exactly when she found out, but I'm sure it was before the wedding!

I'd say that Lily definitely knew about the Marauders' Animagus forms, because in her letter she addressed Sirius as Padfoot. It's hard to say exactly when she found out, but I'm sure it was before the wedding!
I would hope it would be before the wedding! That would be an awkward comversation other wise.
James: Um honey I need to tell you something....
Lily: What is it?
James:.....well.....I can turn into a stag, Sirius is a dog, and Peter is a rat... Honey talk to me!
Lily: Now I get the nick names....(Lily looks off dreamly)
James: So your not mad?? Lily....LILY! (Lily plans ways to use this information for her own personal gain.)
LOL! I couldn't resist I had to type this.

I would hope it would be before the wedding! That would be an awkward comversation other wise.
James: Um honey I need to tell you something....
Lily: What is it?
James:.....well.....I can turn into a stag, Sirius is a dog, and Peter is a rat... Honey talk to me!
Lily: Now I get the nick names....(Lily looks off dreamly)
James: So your not mad?? Lily....LILY! (Lily plans ways to use this information for her own personal gain.)
LOL! I couldn't resist I had to type this.

LOL to funny! :lol::tu:

Well, James had saved Snape's life, and the conversation between her and Snape that followed it's easy to infer that Lily guessed Remus was a werewolf but didn't care much for Snape's view on the matter. The Animagus forms of James, Sirius and Peter, however, probably weren't found out by her till she started dating James.

She'd probably have found out once she had been told by them that Remus was a werewolf,that the were animagus too.

But her guessing at Remus's lycanthropy and being told by the Marauders themselves about it are two different things, and I'm guessing the latter didn't happen till after James and Lily started getting along a bit better (not necessarily after they got together, though).

But her guessing at Remus's lycanthropy and being told by the Marauders themselves about it are two different things, and I'm guessing the latter didn't happen till after James and Lily started getting along a bit better (not necessarily after they got together, though).

She could have set it as a condition of dating james - "Tell the truth about what you're up to with Remus every month, or forget about me". Don't know if she was that type, though.

But her guessing at Remus's lycanthropy and being told by the Marauders themselves about it are two different things, and I'm guessing the latter didn't happen till after James and Lily started getting along a bit better (not necessarily after they got together, though).

That's what I mean.She suspected Remus's lycanthropy,but I assume the others confirmed it at one point,at which they also reveled they were animagus.

I think she would've guessed at Lupin's condition before they started dating, but it wouldn't have after they started dating that she found out about the animagus forms. Then she would've really noticed that all four of them went missing at night, and she would've started wondering what they were up to. Lily would probably guess that they were with Remus, but she would want to know how. I could see her confronting James after they all disappear a couple of times and getting the truth out of him then.

Ugg this is my last post before I go back to school tomorrow. I'm so sad I'm going to miss checking this thread out at all hours of the night so i'll have to settle for waiting until after school and homework but know that I will be thinking about all of you posters particularly during geometry!

So here's a question that could be fun to answer: How do you think Lily got along with her in-laws (if they lived long enough to meet her) By the time line of the Black family tree and OOTP they lived until the summer after James and Lilys seventh year. Do you think James made a good impression on Lily's folks? That would have been so funny to read about! Anyway let me know...

What I keep wondering is whether Lily was naturally talented at potions, or if her ability was helped along by her friend?

Ugg this is my last post before I go back to school tomorrow. I'm so sad I'm going to miss checking this thread out at all hours of the night so i'll have to settle for waiting until after school and homework but know that I will be thinking about all of you posters particularly during geometry!

So here's a question that could be fun to answer: How do you think Lily got along with her in-laws (if they lived long enough to meet her) By the time line of the Black family tree and OOTP they lived until the summer after James and Lilys seventh year. Do you think James made a good impression on Lily's folks? That would have been so funny to read about! Anyway let me know...

We don't know that the Potters on the Black family tapestry are James Potter's parents.

What I keep wondering is whether Lily was naturally talented at potions, or if her ability was helped along by her friend?

I think their friendship must have had some effect, and I tend to believe they helped each other in becoming so good at Potions, rather than one of them teaching the other. I suppose they have plenty of time to experiment with ingredients or read during the summers, since they lived in the same town, and that helped them both develop a falir for Potions.

originally posted by Yoana
I think their friendship must have had some effect, and I tend to believe they helped each other in becoming so good at Potions, rather than one of them teaching the other. I suppose they have plenty of time to experiment with ingredients or read during the summers, since they lived in the same town, and that helped them both develop a falir for Potions.

And that would explain why Hermione thought the Prince might be a girl. Snape wrote it all down, so it was a man's writing, but some of the suggestions might've had a feminine air to them. I think they were both good at Potions, and they helped each other out. I can't see Snape being too happy if Lily was getting all the praise for his hard work, even if he did love her. He would've wanted to be recognized so that Lily would be impressed by him too. They may even have been at the same table in Potions and so helped each other out a lot.

originally posted by missbrunettgirl
So here's a question that could be fun to answer: How do you think Lily got along with her in-laws (if they lived long enough to meet her) By the time line of the Black family tree and OOTP they lived until the summer after James and Lilys seventh year. Do you think James made a good impression on Lily's folks? That would have been so funny to read about!

I'm sure Lily would've gotten along with her in-laws, she seems the type that can be friends with anybody. The interesting question is how James and Lily's parents got along. Did Lily tell them about what an arrogant toerag he was? :p And what would Petunia do? Oh, I hope some of that stuff is in the encyclopedia!

I'm sure Lily would've gotten along with her in-laws, she seems the type that can be friends with anybody. The interesting question is how James and Lily's parents got along. Did Lily tell them about what an arrogant toerag he was? And what would Petunia do? Oh, I hope some of that stuff is in the encyclopedia!
LOL! Me to. I really want this encyclopedia but I have a feeling it will be a while....
I'm sure Lily probably complained about James though and maybe her mom picked up on Lily's crush on James before she did.

And that would explain why Hermione thought the Prince might be a girl. Snape wrote it all down, so it was a man's writing, but some of the suggestions might've had a feminine air to them. I think they were both good at Potions, and they helped each other out.

That's right! I had forgotten about that. Yes, there must have been something feminine about it to make Hermione suspect it was a girl, and it was probably lily's influence.

They may even have been at the same table in Potions and so helped each other out a lot.

Yes, but only for the first five years, because after that they weren't on speaking terms. But since we know that Levicorpus and Sectumsempra were invented before their fifith year, then it's very probable that that was the case.

They may even have been at the same table in Potions and so helped each other out a lot.

I could see that. I kind of see Lily as being natrually good to though.

1. Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
Snape might have acted as a gateway into the wizarding world for Lily, much the same way Hagrid acted for Harry (and later Ron took over). Snape may have introduced Lily to many aspects of the wizarding world to get her adjusted.

Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
I don't know, it sounded like Petunia became so jealous of her sister when she got her Hogwarts letter that she just couldn't let it go. Petunia would have had to be a witch in order to repair their relationship, it would seem, since that's really the thing Petunia wanted and since she couldn't ever have magical abilities, the relationship went sour.

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.
She must have been friends with the Gryffindor girls, probably those in her dormitory. I think Snape must have been her only Slytherin friend, since she met him before he was Sorted.

According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
I think perhaps they didn't know Snape like Lily did and couldn't see why she bothered to hang around with him. They also might have seen what kind of things he was into (ie the Dark Arts) and didn't know why she would hang around with someone like that.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?
I think this showed for Lily where Snape's allegiances lay at that time in his life (even though in a twisted way, he was doing it for her). That he let slip the "m" word - referring to her no less - showed Lily that he really was embracing the Death Eater philosophy, though I don't think she knew all of his motives. It's hard to say: if she'd lived, I'm not sure Snape wouldn't still have been a Death Eater, since he only stopped being one because Lily was killed.

It's hard to say: if she'd lived, I'm not sure Snape wouldn't still have been a Death Eater, since he only stopped being one because Lily was killed.
Not really, cause he went to Dumbledore as soon as he found out Voldemort was going after her.

According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
I think she was fairly independent-minded as far as her friendships went, which was why she seemed so offended when Snape was bad-mouthing the Marauders in front of her- even if she had no particular fondness for James and Sirius, I could practically see the thought that it wasn't Snape's business to try and influence her position on the matter.

Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

I'm not sure. Jealousy was the obvious driving force of the break down in their relationship. I think once Petunia had realised she couldn't be part of the magical world, she didn't want to have any part in it. She refused to believe in it and any thought of her sister would remind her of magic. I don't think Lily was too fussed in the end either.

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

I think probably the gossipy, cool Gryffindor girls, and then later on the Gryffindor boys - once they'd grown up a bit.

Respecting all opinions, but in my opinion, Lily's prowess in potions had nothing to do with James or Sirius or Snape. Slughorn said she was good and I like to think that she was good in her own right, without help from anyone. Not from James and Sirius who were obviously the best in their year at it and not from Snape who was also good at it (i.e., I recognize they were all good too :) )

We know so little about Lily as a woman in and of herself and I personally refuse to contribute any of her successes to men where canon does not so indicate. I think she was brilliant in her own right and didn't need anyone to make her good at magic. For example, Hermione was brilliant at potions and studied with her friends, but they did not become brilliant at it. So I like the idea of giving Lily her due.

Females excel in magic all on their own - they don't need help from men. Especially men they don't get along with or men whose outlook of magic differ from hers. There is little going on with the respect of the achievements of women in magic in the series as it is, so I found it very pleasant to see people like Hermione, McGonagall and Lily making strides in magical ability, all on their own and having nothing to do with help from men. :) I respect the opinions of those who feel differently, but that is how I like to think about it myself.

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

I think it helped her adjust to it, definitely. It would be a huge shock to take in, and being around another kid with the same magical abilities would probably make it more real for her. When she got to Hogwarts, I suppose it wasn't quite as overwhelming (though I think she'd still think "wow, it's actually real!"). However, I kind of see her like Hermione in the way that, had she not met Snape before school, she would have read up a lot on the world.

Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

I don't think so. Petunia's jealousy ran too deep, and Lily could only take the name calling and shunning to a certain point. I feel bad for Petunia, because I could only imagine the idea of feeling as though she always came second to Lily... but I also feel sorry for Lily, because she tried very hard to make her sister see sense, and yet it all came back to slap her in the face.

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

I think her friends were nice people, though there's not much we can determine. I mean, she was friends with someone like Snape, and then eventually people like the Marauders, and their personalities are all quite different. So I'd assume Lily was just a very friendly person who got along with loads of people. I suppose her friends were mostly from her house though, like most Hogwarts students.

According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

I think Lily is much more open minded than the average person. She gave Snape many chances where others wouldn't have, which I greatly admire her for. She stood up for him even when their friendship was hanging by a string and he was doing many things she disaproved of.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

I think it was completely understandable that this was the last straw. Imagine hearing your best friend call people of your parentage foul names, watch his other friends use Dark Magic on innocent students and hear him pass it off as a laugh, see him aiming to become a Death Eater and join the man who wanted to whipe out Muggleborns like yourself... and then stand up for him, and have him call you a Mudblood? That's just terrible. I'm not surprised at all with her reaction. She was actually quite calm and collected about it, really (until he came to apologize, when she got a bit angrier).

As for reconciliation, it depends on how she lived. If her and her family had never been targetted by Voldemort, then Snape never would have changed his allegiance. I'm positive Lily would not have been able to reconcile with him while he was a Death Eater. It's not her character at all.

Had she been marked for death by Voldemort, thus making Snape turn spy for Dumbledore, yet she somehow lived, then that's a different story. Though I'm not sure how much of Snape's moral views would have changed had she not died; it seemed to be the catalyst of his character change. His guilt about her death seemed to be his main motivation. So I'm not too sure she would have been able to reconcile with him, anyways. Maybe she would have forgiven him if he'd later apologized sincerely, but I can't imagine them becoming close again.

According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
I think Lily was willing to meet all kinds of people. She befriended Snape even though he didn't have many friends and wasn't all that wealthy. It's no wonder Lily is described as being popular. She seems like a friendly, charismatic person.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?
Her friendship with Snape was already falling apart before SWM judging by Lily's behavior. Snape calling her a mudblood was the last straw for her because she knew that he was treading a path that was making him into a person she didn't like. Like Lily said, if he was willing to call other people mudbloods, why should she be any different?

I don't think the mudblood comment is what bothered her the most. He was clearly aspiring to be a DE, how could she remain friends with a person attracted to that?

Lily may have forgiven him if he did redeem himself by no longer being a DE. I don't know when and if this would've happened though. Snape only stopped being a DE once Lily was in danger. It makes me wonder whether Snape truly didn't like what LV was doing at the time of the first war.

According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
I think Lily was willing to meet all kinds of people. She befriended Snape even though he didn't have many friends and wasn't all that wealthy. It's no wonder Lily is described as being popular. She seems like a friendly, charismatic person.
I agree. Lily seems to have been a very friendly, open person, who didn't feel ashamed to be Snape's friend even though her other friends didn't like him. Even when their paths diverged, she remained friends with him for as long as possible. We haven't actually encountered a single character who didn't like her! Even Voldemort said she was brave!!!

Respecting all opinions, but in my opinion, Lily's prowess in potions had nothing to do with James or Sirius or Snape. Slughorn said she was good and I like to think that she was good in her own right, without help from anyone. Not from James and Sirius who were obviously the best in their year at it and not from Snape who was also good at it (i.e., I recognize they were all good too :) )

I really appreciate your opinion, I just suppose what makes me doubt about if she was naturally all that great at potions (which has nothing to do with her being excellent at other subjects, I'm just talking about potions) is that it is precisely Slughorn who praises her so much while at the same time praising Harry's potions prowess which we *know* is stolen, and from exactly the same person even who probably worked with Lily in Potions, although it might be some of Lily's ideas as well in the book, but in Harry's case we know it's not an innate talent. It makes me wonder if that's a hint or not :hmm:...

Q: Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

I very much doubt Lily or Petunia could have repaired their relationship since Petunia seems to be unable to get over her jealousy of Lily being a witch. She couldn't get over it with Harry and I doubt Lily could have said or done anything to change that if she lived. They did seem to be in contact before Lily's death but I think it was x-mas card contact, maybe a letter now and then but Petunia couldn’t get over not being a witch too.

Q: Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

Based on the few things we know about Lily I think Lily would have had friends who were much like her smart, brave and true. Not the kind of girls who are “boys, boys, boys". I pictured her hanging out with people much like Lupin and , Hermione.

Q: According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

It said she was a very loyal person. She doesn't give in to peer pressure from other friends and members of her house because one of her friends (Snape) is unpopular.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

Yes I think Snape calling Lily an “mudblood” it was the last strew for her. I think when she was older she may have regretted her decision now she more grown up and matrue and understand things better. But sadly I think she ever would have went to Snape or tried to repair the relationship because of his ties with the Dark Arts/Death Eater.

I really appreciate your opinion, I just suppose what makes me doubt about if she was naturally all that great at potions (which has nothing to do with her being excellent at other subjects, I'm just talking about potions) is that it is precisely Slughorn who praises her so much while at the same time praising Harry's potions prowess which we *know* is stolen, and from exactly the same person even who probably worked with Lily in Potions, although it might be some of Lily's ideas as well in the book, but in Harry's case we know it's not an innate talent. It makes me wonder if that's a hint or not :hmm:...

I didn't take it that way, but we don't have canon either way so one cannot be certain. However, it just seems to me that JKR was trying to show that the women in the HP world were as talented as the men - at various points in the story (often with Hermione) she showed us this. I liked to see this as another example because there were really too few very talented women shown in the series. :)

I agree. Lily seems to have been a very friendly, open person, who didn't feel ashamed to be Snape's friend even though her other friends didn't like him. Even when their paths diverged, she remained friends with him for as long as possible. We haven't actually encountered a single character who didn't like her! Even Voldemort said she was brave!!!

That's true! A lot of characters seem to be really fond of Lily. Dumbledore, Remus, Snape, Slughorn.... She was very well liked among people. :)

No wonder two people fell in love with her!

We know so little about Lily as a woman in and of herself and I personally refuse to contribute any of her successes to men where canon does not so indicate. I think she was brilliant in her own right and didn't need anyone to make her good at magic.

:agree:

There really is no need to denigrate Lily's achievements in order to build up a case for Snape. She was loyal to Snape for many years, but in the end she was certainly smart enough to sever ties with a young man caught up in the dark arts.

I would like to remind people of "How to have a pleasant conversation on any topic (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=106993)" and to show respect to other posters and their ideas at all times. Thanks!

I didn't take it that way, but we don't have canon either way so one cannot be certain. However, it just seems to me that JKR was trying to show that the women in the HP world were as talented as the men - at various points in the story (often with Hermione) she showed us this. I liked to see this as another example because there were really too few very talented women shown in the series. :)

I just wanted to make it clear that my doubts have to do with the fact that I don't fully trust Slughorn's judgement and not so much which Lily as a person. And even if she was indeed not extraordinarily talented at potions this doesn't mean that she could not be extremely talented in another area. There are extremely few universally talented characters in the series anyway.

I just wanted to make it clear that my doubts have to do with the fact that I don't fully trust Slughorn's judgement and not so much which Lily as a person. And even if she was indeed not extraordinarily talented at potions this doesn't mean that she could not be extremely talented in another area. There are extremely few universally talented characters in the series anyway.


I see what you are saying and I respect your opinion. :)

I think it is hard to make a judgment about Lily's talent based on the canon because we did not see her perform magic. We know that she could perform the patronus charm which is quite difficult. She also, with James, thrice defied Voldemort and also fought in the Order. So, taking all of that into consideration, I would conclude that she was likely a talented witch. But I agree with you that most are not universally talented (good at every single discipline). However, I tend to feel that Slughorn, as a long time potions professor, would be able to correctly judge Lily's talent. Thus I do feel she was likely good at Potions as well. However, I respect your opinion if you interpret this distinctly. :)

So, taking all of that into consideration, I would conclude that she was likely a talented witch.

She was also Head Girl, which, to me, makes it clear she was talented. Plus Hagrid implies she was talented as well in PS/SS.

Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
In respect to their relationship I really see Lily trying wholeheartedly to repair the bond between them. I don't see Lily as a person that would give up on a person very soon. Look at how long she stuck by Snape. I see Petunia being the one to close herself off completely to Lily. In order for their relationship to be repaired Petunia would have had to overcome her jealously of Lily.

I think Petunia always loved her. I saw this posted in another thread about how in HBP, when Dumbledore comes to get Harry he makes a comment about Petunia's beautiful flowers outside, and the name of the flowers is a kind of Lillie!

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.
It seems that Severus was definately her friend up until SWM. But it also seems at that point that she was already losing touch with him a bit. Lily mentions Mary Macdonald at two instances (shameless plug...I know :lol:). But, it seems that she was popular and making a new group of friends that were serparate from Severus and the Dark Arts. I see her as being kind to many people and well liked.

According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
For me it not only shows that Lily is capable in seeing good in people when others cannot, but it also seems to suggest that Lily kept her friendship with Severus on the down low. Meaning that people knew they were friends, but may not have known why or for even how long. It looks like it is possible that Lily could have kept the details of their friendship a secret or did not gossip about Severus.


Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?
The conversation they had together before SWM seemed that it was not the first type of discussion that they had had about Severus' friends. When Snape called her a Mudblood I think Lily took that as he had made his choice of sides. He always made an exception for Lily and Lily knew that. I think she thought he was a lost cause and had chosen his path. He was beyond saving for her and she could have been tired of trying to save him and wanting him to make the right choice. I believe that it crushed her to have to break ties with him, but that she also knew she couldn't be associated with him and his friends any longer.

She may have reconsidered her decision if Snape would have been willing to turn back sides.

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children? No, Petunia probably thought since she was Older, she was right and refused to change. She was also extremely judgemental and anyone who didn't meet her definition as NORMAL was treated like garbage, this included her own Sister. It's clear to me, her Parents didn't realize who Petunia really was. I'm sure if they HEARD the way she REALLY treated Lily, they would have come down on her really hard. Petunia had a double edged tongue. She could really put on an act, unfortunately, only a few people(Lily, Severus, James and Harry) saw her for who she was.
Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts. I think her only true, real Friend was Severus. These other Girls were probably just her fellow Gryffindor Students. Snape was the person she felt "normal" around. When Lily was with him, we saw a more daring side of her. Somehow I think her other "Friends" held her back. I don't see them telling her about Dementors and being honest. You know, scaring her, but fascinating her at the same time.
According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people? Once again, she had this wild side within her that was raring to come out. She definitely could not suggest doing something crazy like crashing a Concert with Petunia. So Lily pulled the reigns in when she was wanting to jump in puddles, test the boundaries, see how far she could go without getting in trouble. With Severus, she COULD push the envelope. If she went too far and got a scraped knee, oh well. I don't see Snape getting too excited, I kind of see him taking the "well duh, if you didn't want to fall, why did you do that?" I also see her being fiercely independent. She seems to be the type of person who does not want to be held back as long as she's in control of the situation. Her Friendship with Severus also shows how she was uncanny, even as a Child. Not uncanny in "weird" but, she didn't see a person's Disability, Handicap, Illness, etc. She saw the person underneath. Even then, she saw a strength in the person they themselves didn't see. Severus could be himself with her. If he said something awkward, she didn't say "You really are weird, aren't you?" or "Why would you make a dumb comment like that?" I think he knew he could be himself and she would point, laugh, stare and say "get away from me you Freak, I don't want your coodies!" and treat him like a Circus Freak.
Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? I'm not sure why, but I think James Potter and Sirius Black had some influence in this situation. Yes, she saw them bullying him, but I don't think she saw what REALLY happened from the start to the end. They knew Severus had hurt her and at that particular moment, meant it. He was being humiliated even more by the fact it took a GIRL to stop the bullying. Now he was seen as being so weak, it took a Girl to fight his battle. James liked Lily, so he's going to seize the moment to comfort her, bash Snape, etc. If things had been left alone, Snape had given her time to calm down, writtem a letter, etc, she might have come around. But with James and Sirius always in her company, "protecting" her, Snape didn't have a snowball's chance in Hell. Also, "mudblood" is a derogatory term and he DID use it to describe it to other people. However, I don't see her saying "You call all people of my Birth "Mudblood" so why not me" as being completely her own thought. I also think Snape may have had that "why bother" attitude. Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived? I really don't know what to think here. Years later, maybe, but I'm not sure.

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? I'm not sure why, but I think James Potter and Sirius Black had some influence in this situation. Yes, she saw them bullying him, but I don't think she saw what REALLY happened from the start to the end. They knew Severus had hurt her and at that particular moment, meant it. He was being humiliated even more by the fact it took a GIRL to stop the bullying. Now he was seen as being so weak, it took a Girl to fight his battle. So of course he's going to tell her to [staff edit] without actually saying it. Again, James liked Lily, so he's going to seize the moment to comfort her, say "what a Jerk, maybe your Friends are right", etc. I think if she had been left alone, Snape had said "I'm sorry", let her be for a few days, write a letter, etc, she might have come around. But with James and Sirius keeping her company, "protecting" her, Snape didn't have a snowball's chance in Hell. Also, "mudblood" is a derogatory term and he DID use it to describe it to other people. However, I don't see her saying "You call all people of my Birth "Mudblood" so why not me" as being completely her own thought. I also think Snape may have had that "why bother" attitude.

I had never thought of it that way. It actually makes a lot of sense - I mean one sees that sort of thing happen in real life all of the time. The only thing would be that she told James off that day too, so I am not sure she was talking to him at that point either. But I agree that she'd come around to talking with James and friends a lot sooner - maybe Remus. And Remus would of course talk James' side - but more than that, he would also be appalled at the 'mudblood' comment, that was like a major derogatory word for them. Plus her other friends she talked it over with wouldn't have likely encouraged her to end her friendship with Snape as well.

Then there is the psychological part; James had declared he'd never call her that (even with her wand pointed at him) and I think it made her happy despite the fact that she was upset at him. Plus she had a crush, so she might have spoken with him some. And other guys in Gryffindor likely all felt the same way, so they took would make her feel better, affirming they'd never call her that (then asking for a date - she was popular!)

Just a note: do read the Character Bashing/Shades of Grey (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108021) rules, and make sure your posts are in accordance with those.
Making statements about characters is often sticky ground, so when presenting your views on the point, please do indicate that they are your opinions by prefacing your statements with the words "I feel that..." or some words to that effect. It helps things stay friendly around here.
Thank you.

On the Harry analysis thread, most people agreed that Harry was an introvert. According to Dumbledore, Harry acts a lot like Lily. But does anyone think that Lily was an introvert also?

Using Chievrefueil's list of introverts and extroverts, this is what I think of her. (Some of these aren't underlined because I can't tell since we don't see a lot of memories with her.)

Extravert

Expressive
Outgoing
Energized by action, people, things
Speak before they think
Share personal information easily
Prefer to be in the company of others
Distracted easily
Have a lot of friends
Uninhibited
Like working in teams
Approachable, open with strangers
Like meeting new people
Develop ideas through discussion
Party animal, social butterfly

Introverts
Quiet
Reserved
Energized by ideas, feelings, impressions
Think before they speak
Reluctant to share personal information
Prefer to be left alone
Can concentrate well
Small, close group of friends
Inhibited
Would rather work alone
Stand off-ish, keeps to themselves
Prefer a small group of people they already know
Ideas come from thinking alone
Wallflower - opposite of "party animal, social butterfly"

Overall, I think Lily's a lot more extroverted. Does anyone agree?