Snape and Lily - the Relationship Revealed!

I think that the chapter with all of Snape's memories was easily the best and most well written chapter in the book, I was in tears by the end of it. It's just so heart wrenching to know that Snape had been pining over Lily since childhood and essentially ruined it all in his worst memory, thus leaving him to make it up to her for the rest of his life. I always had faith that Snape was truly not as bad as he seemed and I am very happy that that ended up truly being on Dumbledore's side. I always agreed with Snape completely when he was angry with Dumbledore about dragging Harry along for 17 years just so he could die, and with that reaction it showed to me that Snape really did care for Harry, even if it was only because he was Lily's son. I have to say though, the idea that Snape was in love with Lily had always come up in possible twists, but it was never one that really stood out in my mind, I liked it a lot.

The one thing I never really understood though, and it may very well be obvious, was why was it so important that Harry had Lily's eyes? Was it because that was the reason Snape protected him all those years?

And I was honestly very depressed when Voldemort killed Snape. And that was even before we find out about his full past. I just didn't think it was necessary and I was really upset about that.

DD didn't drag Harry along just so he could die, where is everyone getting that from??

I was hoping it wasn't going to be true, but I suppose there was no other way. I doubt that Snape cared for Harry, I think he was just protecting him for Lily, and to repay Dumbledore for what he did to protect her in the first place. However, I see his actions over the years as selfless, rather than selfish. Snape had nothing to gain personally and everything to lose by siding with Dumbledore and the Order, and protecting Harry. Not only could he have been killed at any time by Voldemort or the Death Eaters, but he could have lost his soul to the Dementors. I certainly wouldn't put it past Voldemort to use them to punish one who had betrayed him.

The one thing I never really understood though, and it may very well be obvious, was why was it so important that Harry had Lily's eyes? Was it because that was the reason Snape protected him all those years?


I believe that was the importance of her eyes. The "power" associated with eyes that JKR mentioned was, I believe, Occlumency, so therefore not directly related to Lily's.

From an interview before OotP:


Q: Now, can I ask you: are there any special wizarding powers in your world that depend on the wizard using their eyes to do something?
...
A: Aren’t you smart? There is something, maybe, coming about that. I’m going to say no more, very clever.

DD didn't drag Harry along just so he could die, where is everyone getting that from??

Because Dumbledore admitted it to Snape in the "Always" memory? The thing that saved Harry was his blood in Voldemort, but for some reason Dumbledore didn't tell Snape this and I can't figure out why.

I was hoping it wasn't going to be true, but I suppose there was no other way. I doubt that Snape cared for Harry, I think he was just protecting him for Lily, and to repay Dumbledore for what he did to protect her in the first place. However, I see his actions over the years as selfless, rather than selfish. Snape had nothing to gain personally and everything to lose by siding with Dumbledore and the Order, and protecting Harry. Not only could he have been killed at any time by Voldemort or the Death Eaters, but he could have lost his soul to the Dementors. I certainly wouldn't put it past Voldemort to use them to punish one who had betrayed him.

Well said, I was somewhat dissapointed with Snape in this book. This was how he redeemed himself for treating Harry cruelly and talking crudely about the dead (James & Sirius). He only loved Lily ( not giving a care for her son or ANYone else) and that was why he protected Harry. That is Selfish in my opinion. So I didn't really get weepy or anything, because it dissapointed me. Now that you put it this way I kind of see him being redeemed.

Almost ALL of my Snape Lily relationship theories were proven true! Snape being "that awful boy", Snape being in love with Lily, Snape asking Voldemort to spare Lily, and Snape going to Dumbledore's side due to the prophecy disaster. What I DIDN'T see was the childhood friendship aspect!

Anyway, I, as well as many people who have theorized this for years, should be VERY pleased with the results. It was perfect. Absolutely perfect.

Snape had nothing to gain personally and everything to lose by siding with Dumbledore and the Order, and protecting Harry.

Its not that he didn't gain anything by siding with Dumbledore and the Order. He gained personal satisfaction that he was helping protect Lily's son and by doing this he was trying to reduce some guilt that he had within him for having caused Lily's death.

Because Dumbledore admitted it to Snape in the "Always" memory? The thing that saved Harry was his blood in Voldemort, but for some reason Dumbledore didn't tell Snape this and I can't figure out why.

No he didn't trust Snape or Harry enough to tell them everything. DD knew about the blood thing in GOF or he figured it out that Harry probably wouldn't die. I think he told Snape the way he did, because he didn't want Harry to fail or Snape to falter with the possibility that Harry would survive the killing curse. Harry had to face death head on NOT with the belief that he wouldn't die.

Which is why DD gleam of Triumph was important to the story.

Thanks for answering my question though.

Because Dumbledore admitted it to Snape in the "Always" memory? The thing that saved Harry was his blood in Voldemort, but for some reason Dumbledore didn't tell Snape this and I can't figure out why.i think it was because Snape was having to spend time with Voldemort. Although he was a top-notch Occlumens, there was always the chance that something might slip. Dumbledore couldn't tell Snape so many things for that reason, he didn't want to "put all his eggs in one basket".

i think it was because Snape was having to spend time with Voldemort. Although he was a top-notch Occlumens, there was always the chance that something might slip. Dumbledore couldn't tell Snape so many things for that reason, he didn't want to "put all his eggs in one basket".

That's right, Dumbledore actually said that to Snape, he didn't tell him everything because he didn't want to put all his secrets in one basket. Forgot about that.

But surely Snape would have found out about Voldemort using Harry's blood through his spy work if not through Dumbledore? I guess he didn't know what it meant, after all Dumbledore only guessed that Harry would be protected by the blood in Voldemort.

I don't know to me it seemed like when DD asked Snape so you came to care for the boy after all. Snape said care for him ( with the him emphasized) and produced his patronus ( the same as Lily's) implying that it wasn't for him ( Harry ) but for Lily. I would've like it better if he hadn't said that, but I guess he wouldn't be Snape afterall.

But what Snape does and what Snape says have always been two different things. He's incredulous when DD asks him if he's grown to care for the boy, but from Harry's perspective in that scene, he describes Snape as looking horrified that DD would raise Harry just to have him die at the right moment.

I think he started out with selfish reasons and motivation, and his hate for Harry because he could not reconcile the fact that he had to look at James every time he saw him but also look at Lily's eyes -- but in the end, I think he cared for Harry, regretted that (from what he thought from what DD told him) he was basically sending him to his grave. I really don't think he would have given him all his memories, his entire life, if he hadn't grown to care for Harry in some small way. I think the change happens when he no longer calls him Potter in his scenes with DD, but Lily's son. Because that became enough for him at some point.

It was kinda cool. I mean Lily was quite popular, so there are a lot of people who are bound to fall in love with her, not just our Prongs, y'know? If you ask me, Snape/Lils is way better than Remus/Lils. Cos I think that Remus would not want to risk his friendship with James for a girl. However, Snape's fine, because he's not even James' friend, so he can like Lily without a conscience.

Yah, and when Petunia was saying about 'that awful boy' in OoTP I sort of knew it wasn't James. And Harry gave a MAJOR hint, "If you were mentioning about my mom and dad, why didn't you use thier names?" (Sorry, not exact, because I don't have the OoTP book.) Yeah, it was majorly cool, SS/LE. I guess Snape hates James not only because of the bullying, but the love rivalry as well.

I think he started out with selfish reasons and motivation, and his hate for Harry because he could not reconcile the fact that he had to look at James every time he saw him but also look at Lily's eyes -- but in the end, I think he cared for Harry, regretted that (from what he thought from what DD told him) he was basically sending him to his grave. I really don't think he would have given him all his memories, his entire life, if he hadn't grown to care for Harry in some small way. I think the change happens when he no longer calls him Potter in his scenes with DD, but Lily's son. Because that became enough for him at some point.


Very well said. :tu:

And I agree about how Snape calls Harry Lily's son in the memories,that felt so different then what we are used to seeing.

I'm really glad that Snape turned out to be at Dumbledore's side. I belied he was. And as for his feelings for Lily, i felt that he probably loved her.... Snape's memories were really one of the best written parts of the book! I cried when I read them :blush: They were really expressive and there was such deep sadness :( Poor Snape....

Because Dumbledore admitted it to Snape in the "Always" memory? The thing that saved Harry was his blood in Voldemort, but for some reason Dumbledore didn't tell Snape this and I can't figure out why.

That is answered in the book itself....

'Information,' repeated Snape. 'You trust him....you do not trust me.'
'It is not a question of trust. I have, as we both know, limited time. It is essential that I give the boy enough information for him to do what he needs to do.'
'And why may I not have the same information?'
'I prefer not to put all of my secrets in one basket, particularly not a basket that spends so much time dangling on the arm of Lord Voldemort.'


But surely Snape would have found out about Voldemort using Harry's blood through his spy work if not through Dumbledore?

Even if he would have known he wouldn't have understood the significance of it, which you already point out.

Snape protected the students and Harry, but was anyone bothered by the fact that the ONLY reason he protected Harry was because he loved Lily. He didn't really care about Harry himself.
I'm sure Harry isn't complaining.

Anyway, initially, yes, that is exactly why he did it but I think it was clear that overtime, though he didn't LIKE Harry, he cared for him to an extent.

Anyway, initially, yes, that is exactly why he did it but I think it was clear that overtime, though he didn't LIKE Harry, he cared for him to an extent.

But that too was because he was Lily's son. We could still see him revolting against Harry because he was acting like his father....(refer to when Dumbledore refuses to provide him all the information...)

Oh my god, Deathly Hallows is a really depressing book, no matter how much i say i love it...and, know i've discovered another part of the book to burst into tears over,
I think it might be right when Snape says to Harry 'Look at me', it means that he wanted to see Lily's eyes one more time, before he dies. Now I have heard this theory, I'm going to crack everytime I read the sentence.

I was actually quite surprised when it turned out Snape loved Lily, but now I see... Snape was that 'awful boy' (as Tuney puts it) that told Lily about the Dementors.

But I'm still much happier to have James get together with Lily in the end.

I never thought I'd say this in a sentence about Snape..but it was so cute! At least while they were kids. Snape and Harry have the love for Lily in common and also the dislike for Petunia :)

I absolutely loved "The Prince's Tale". It was soo sweet. After I read it, I felt so sad that he had died! I couldnt stop crying :( But it was amazing. It was beautifully written and the entire concept was fantastic.

I love Severus *tear*

The Pensieve scenes are symbolic, they represent not only a sequential progression of events that changed Snape's life, but a moral progression as well. It's clear he went from being the 20 year boy who was only willing to act out of a selfish (albeit pure) love to a wizened guy who just wanted to fight for what was right and protect as many people as possible. This is best reflected in his "only those whom I haven't been able to save" comment and his obvious reaction of disgust at Dumbledore using Harry as a pig for slaughter. More importantly, we can see this transition reflected in Dumbledore's own changing behavior and treatment of him. He went from being disgusted at Snape's motivation for initially joining the good side to fiercely relying on Snape ("I am fortunate to have you) and even going as far as to suggest that the sorting hat sorted too soon. He KNOWS Snape has truly changed.

Snape is no longer selfish, he is fighting for the right reasons, but Lily's love forever remains a symbol of his goodness, of the power that ultimately dug out that beauty that he had so tragically buried during his youth.

Anywho, random musing, I thought of you during all of this and I've been waiting for you to show up. You must be so happy that all your theories turned out right. :cool:

I'm still mourning the death of Snape! I always said he was good even when most of my friends didn't think so! Snape's death was the saddest one for me. I actually had tears rolling down my face. :'( I'm really glad that Harry made Albus's middle name Severus. I just can't express how upset I am about Snape's death. It was a horrible way to die. Long Live Severus Snape! Btw JKR did a Fantastic job! Though I was I bit iffy when she killed both Tonks and Remus...but that's for another thread!!! I hope everyone enjoyed the nook as much as I did!

Oh my god, Deathly Hallows is a really depressing book, no matter how much i say i love it...and, know i've discovered another part of the book to burst into tears over,
I think it might be right when Snape says to Harry 'Look at me', it means that he wanted to see Lily's eyes one more time, before he dies. Now I have heard this theory, I'm going to crack everytime I read the sentence.

I was actually quite surprised when it turned out Snape loved Lily, but now I see... Snape was that 'awful boy' (as Tuney puts it) that told Lily about the Dementors.

But I'm still much happier to have James get together with Lily in the end.

He also had to tell Harry the truth before he died, per Dumbledore's orders.

As horrible and heartbreaking Snape's death was, the fact that Lily's eyes were the last thing he saw is a small comfort.

Also, Snape and Lily would have been much less believable if Snape was actually romantically in love with Lily, I think. I'm glad they were just friends (like Harry and Hermione - I've been laughing my butt off all day at the Harmonians bawling their eyes out :evil:).

On a more related note, the Lily thing explains absolutely everything about Snape. Not just his loyalties, but his isolated personality, his constant sneer, his, erm, controversial teaching style, everything. Though I still like the fact that above all this depression, he still was able to sneak in some terrible bias towards Slytherin. :lol:

You are right about DH being very depressing though. I always scoff a tiny bit at people who cry over books...but this one brought tears to my eyes on several occasions.

I'm glad Lily and Snape weren't involved at all romantically.

I think this storyline affected me the most in the whole book. I don't know why-- maybe it's because I was never a big fan of Snape and I wanted to believe that he was bad. Plus, I always had an attachment to those Marauders, even after we saw Snape's Worst Memory; to me it was still James/Sirius= popular, good and died with great bravery--- Snape= unpleasant, mean to Harry regardless of his past. I had actually suspected this plot for a while, but I tried to keep my mind away from the "So-and-so loved Lily" theories.

That chapter TOTALLY changed my mind about Snape. While my affection for the Marauders remains, I finally realized what Snape went through. That one moment, when they were being sorted in houses, sealed his fate. Instead of following the girl of his dreams into Gryffindor, he fell into the company of Malfoy and the future Death Eaters. And we finally understand his worst memory-- that was the turning point, when he and Lily embarked on their separate paths. While I agree that his request to save only Lily was incredibly selfish, its rather understandable after everything that had passed between himself and James. But to live for all those years, protecting the boy whose mother he loved and whose father he detested, is something to be applauded, whatever his motivations were. I don't think he ever felt any affection for Harry; he already had too many prejudices against him because of James, but it's more compelling that way. While he felt no love for Harry, he still did it for Lily. It's all the more tragic.

I'm glad Lily and Snape weren't involved at all romantically.

The interesting thing is, Voldemort seems to have thought Snape's love for Lily was romantic. It's part of a theme expanded upon in DH: how platonic love between friends is just as strong, if not stronger than romantic love.

I'm still mourning the death of Snape! I always said he was good even when most of my friends didn't think so! Snape's death was the saddest one for me. I actually had tears rolling down my face. :'( I'm really glad that Harry made Albus's middle name Severus. I just can't express how upset I am about Snape's death. It was a horrible way to die. Long Live Severus Snape! Btw JKR did a Fantastic job! Though I was I bit iffy when she killed both Tonks and Remus...but that's for another thread!!! I hope everyone enjoyed the nook as much as I did!
Ah - *hugs* - You're not alone - everyone I know is weeping at odd times of the day and night.

That's why I invented the Deathly Hallows Tissue Dispenser:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/DeathlyHallowsTissues.jpg


I think he started out with selfish reasons and motivation, and his hate for Harry because he could not reconcile the fact that he had to look at James every time he saw him but also look at Lily's eyes -- but in the end, I think he cared for Harry, regretted that (from what he thought from what DD told him) he was basically sending him to his grave. I really don't think he would have given him all his memories, his entire life, if he hadn't grown to care for Harry in some small way. I think the change happens when he no longer calls him Potter in his scenes with DD, but Lily's son. Because that became enough for him at some point.
Great Post! :tu: I love it that all the time Harry was hating him so much, Snape loved Lily and thought of Harry as "Lily's Son."

*sniffle-us*

Please - everyone take a tissue. I have a warehouse full of them. :)

The interesting thing is, Voldemort seems to have thought Snape's love for Lily was romantic. It's part of a theme expanded upon in DH: how platonic love between friends is just as strong, if not stronger than romantic love.

Didn't you just laught at the Harmonians....j/k. I don't think Lily felt for Snape that way, but vice versa.

Ah - *hugs* - You're not alone - everyone I know is weeping at odd times of the day and night.

That's why I invented the Deathly Hallows Tissue Dispenser:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/DeathlyHallowsTissues.jpg


Great Post! :tu: I love it that all the time Harry was hating him so much, Snape loved Lily and thought of Harry as "Lily's Son."

*sniffle-ous*

Please - everyone take a tissue. I have a warehouse full of them. :)

Hello silver ink pot! I've been waiting for some of the other Snape the Hero regulars to show up here.

Yes, even though I knew Snape was doomed, it doesn't make it any less worse...I'm just glad he died at peace, looking into Lily's eyes.

I nearly shouted in glee when Snape was appointed Headmaster, did anybody else?

Hello silver ink pot! I've been waiting for some of the other Snape the Hero regulars to show up here.

Yes, even though I knew Snape was doomed, it doesn't make it any less worse...I'm just glad he died at peace, looking into Lily's eyes.

I nearly shouted in glee when Snape was appointed Headmaster, did anybody else?

No I would rather it be Mcgonagall, but I wasn't upset because I knew Snape was on the good side.

No I would rather it be Mcgonagall, but I wasn't upset because I knew Snape was on the good side.

I don't know, I for one am considering reading all of Dumbledore's old feast speeches in my best Alan Rickman impression (I've been irritating people around me by speaking in that voice at random intervals since I finished the book.) :lol:

The Prince's Tale was one of the best chapters in the book. JKR outdid herself in explaining, in almost minute detail, how Snape became Snape. His love for Lily is what kept him going. When he shows his Patronus to DD and DD says, "After all this time?"
"Always," said Snape. I cried and went back to "Look...at...me..." and cried all over again. I think in that last look, Snape saw the eyes of the woman he loved and hoped he saw some measure of reprieve in Harrys.
To love and be loved is what we all want; Snape had it, to a degree, with Lily, but lost even the little he had. He regretted it for the rest of his life and spent the rest of his life trying to live up to what Lily thought he could be. Putting himself in dangerous situations to do that. To protect a child he thought might have been his, had the situation been different. Hoped, longed for and desired a woman who had been his friend and nothing more. He pushed that away and payed dearly for it. Snape is one of the most complex characters I have ever read. I absolutely love him.

I will enfore what it seems everyone is saying in this post. The chapter the Prince's Tale is by far the best chapter in the series, and one of the most moving chapters in any book I have ever read. Before DH, I would tell people even though I think he is good, I hate Snape so much I hope he is bad. After reading that chapter, Snape is my favorite character in the book. Everything he ever did is forgiven. My favorite line in the book and the line that had me say WOW, was when Dumbledore sees Snape's patronus and says after all this time, with tears in his eyes, and Snape replies always. I cannot wait to go back and reread the series with a new attitude about Snape.

I always hoped he was a good guy, and I kind of suspected that there was some deeper connection with him and one of Harry's parent's somehow. I just wasn't sure what. This was my favorite part of the book for sure. I cried buckets.

I love it that all the time Harry was hating him so much, Snape loved Lily and thought of Harry as "Lily's Son."

For me one of the saddest things about Snape' death was that while Harry anknowledged Snape' bravery and sacrifices in the end to the point he named his CHILD after him ( despite the fact that Snape was willing to hand baby!Harry to Voldemort. Urgh) yet Snape died with the image of James' clone stuck in his mind. Even in the end he still did not get it that Harry is EVERYTHING Lily was with all her strenghts but none of his father' fatal flaws. Sad because he loved that woman deeply yet he was unable to see the same kind of beauty in her son.

I will enfore what it seems everyone is saying in this post. The chapter the Prince's Tale is by far the best chapter in the series, and one of the most moving chapters in any book I have ever read. Before DH, I would tell people even though I think he is good, I hate Snape so much I hope he is bad. After reading that chapter, Snape is my favorite character in the book. Everything he ever did is forgiven. My favorite line in the book and the line that had me say WOW, was when Dumbledore sees Snape's patronus and says after all this time, with tears in his eyes, and Snape replies always. I cannot wait to go back and reread the series with a new attitude about Snape.


I don't know about the best chapter of the series or even the book for that matter ( or at least not for me) it was interesting.

For me one of the saddest things about Snape' death was that while Harry anknowledged Snape' bravery and sacrifices in the end to the point he named his CHILD after him ( despite the fact that Snape was willing to hand baby!Harry to Voldemort. Urgh) yet Snape died with the image of James' clone stuck in his mind. Even in the end he still did not get it that Harry is EVERYTHING Lily was with all her strenghts but none of his father' fatal flaws. Sad because he loved that woman deeply yet he was unable to see the same kind of beauty in her son.



I really agree with this. It was sad for the most part.

So 'The Awful Boy' Petunia was talking about in OotP was not James after all, it was Snape, could you guess?

I don't think I gave much thought to the Snape Loves Lily theory beforehand, but after reading DH, I thought it was a very good twist, and sort of made everything fall into place.
I believe that if Snape hadn't been hanging around with Death Eaters, everything would have been a lot different, in face I'm quite sure Lily and Snape might have had an actual relationship (ie marriage) if that was the case.
Nevertheless, it made me just want to hug Snape, poor thing, and it made sense how he wanted to look into Harrys eyes when he died because they reminded him of Lily.

I'd like to say "Amen" to all the praise of The Prince's Tale. I'm not one of those people who thinks J.K. Rowling is one of the best writers of all time (yes, I actually heard someone say this today) but that was one of the most beautiful things I have ever read. Even the fact that I predicted all of it (except for Harry being a Horcrux) didn't diminish it at all.

For me one of the saddest things about Snape' death was that while Harry anknowledged Snape' bravery and sacrifices in the end to the point he named his CHILD after him ( despite the fact that Snape was willing to hand baby!Harry to Voldemort. Urgh) yet Snape died with the image of James' clone stuck in his mind. Even in the end he still did not get it that Harry is EVERYTHING Lily was with all her strenghts but none of his father' fatal flaws. Sad because he loved that woman deeply yet he was unable to see the same kind of beauty in her son.

I actually thought that was the whole point of him wanting to look into Harrys eyes: because he knew deep down inside Harry was more like Lily than James, and Snape was able to atlast seek the solace in Harry that he never found with Lily.

The Prince's Tale was one of the best chapters in the book. JKR outdid herself in explaining, in almost minute detail, how Snape became Snape. His love for Lily is what kept him going. When he shows his Patronus to DD and DD says, "After all this time?"
"Always," said Snape. I cried and went back to "Look...at...me..." and cried all over again. I think in that last look, Snape saw the eyes of the woman he loved and hoped he saw some measure of reprieve in Harrys.
To love and be loved is what we all want; Snape had it, to a degree, with Lily, but lost even the little he had. He regretted it for the rest of his life and spent the rest of his life trying to live up to what Lily thought he could be. Putting himself in dangerous situations to do that. To protect a child he thought might have been his, had the situation been different. Hoped, longed for and desired a woman who had been his friend and nothing more. He pushed that away and payed dearly for it. Snape is one of the most complex characters I have ever read. I absolutely love him.


Yes, yes, you expressed everything I feel about him as well! Bravo, Snape, bravo!

My respect for Snape dropped a notch when i found out that every choice that he made (such as joining the Death Eaters and becoming a spy for Dumbledore) is because he loved Lily. That doesn't give him a choice in the matter, if his feelings for her are that strong, and it goes against one of the main themes f the whole series - choices.

The Prince's Tale was such a beautiful chapter. I had to take a break after reading it because I was crying so hard I couldn't see.

I knew Snape loved or at least liked her, but the whole background of them actually being friends, Snape being "that awful boy" who told Lily about the wizarding world, was all news to me.

When he died, the last thing he saw was the eyes of the woman she always loved. That's poetry to me.

If he'd only chosen Gryffindor, how differently it all would have been...

After what Snape went through with James taunting him all the time and loving Lily and all... for him to die that way was soooo sad. It must've been terrible for him...but at least he got to die looking into Lily's eyes. (well Harry's but you know) Even though my friend hasn't read Deathly Hallows, she found out that Snape died and she said she still hated hi and still thought he was an arse. So when class finished we went down to where our group hangs out and I started yelling at her defending Snape. lol. My friends just looked on. And when I was done my friend I had been arguing with said "whatever I don't care" and walked then one of my other friends turned around and said. "WHAT!? SNAPE DIED!?".......whoops........ but I was defending Snape nevertheless. I wonder how many people always believed Snape was good and never faltered...I'm definetely one of those people...... I'm assuming you're one Silver Ink Pot???? Btw thanks for tissue!! lol *hugs back* The journey may be over but the Harry Potter legacy isn't I don't think the Harry Potter series will ever be forgotten...it's just one of those things that people will never cease talking about. R.I.P Severus Snape. Voldie-Poo go and burn and may the remainder of your dirty soul be eaten by Nargles! Whoo Hoo GO HARRY POTTER! Ok just had to let that all out! This took really long to type coz my kitten is attacking my fingers...o_O......Snape cried.....*bursts into tears* I have never cried so much whilst Reading one chapter. Come to think of it...this is the only book with which I've ever actually...Snapes death made it all the more painful....do you guys think he was one of the two characters she wasn't going to kill but ended up killing. If not who are the two??? Does any one know?

This came as a complete shock to me, I believed Snape was pure evil, but when I found out that he wasn't, it wasn't an unpleasant shock. I think its sad how Snape had to die, just when Harry found out he was a good person, especially since at the end, he names his child after him, and tells him that Snape was the bravest guy he ever knew.

I think the reason Lily liked Snape even when he was dabbling in the Dark Arts is because he was the first person that saw her as she really was, the first person that she could talk to about all the strange unexplained things that had happened in her life, and so I think that she always had some connection with Snape because of it, and she tried to remain oblivious to the fact that Snape may becoming more and more entwined within the Dark Arts.

I never really believed that there was anything going on between Snape and Lily, only because I never picked up on it myself. I didn't know where other people got those theories, so I always shot them down. But now that JKR has made it official, I think it is one of the most touching things in the whole series. We finally have solid evidence for why Snape is good and why he joined the Order hole-heartedly. The chapter The Prince's Tale was no doubt one of my favorite chapters in the entire series. I loved how we found out all these secrets that Snape had that really made him an honorable, courageous, and dedicated man. I was completely heartbroken after I read this chapter and went back to when Snape died as he was looking into Harry's (aka Lily's) eyes. Even though I would never agree with Snape and Lily getting together, but perhaps just sustaining their friendship, I was so sad that Snape died without Harry knowing what a brave and honorable man he really was.

After what Snape went through with James taunting him all the time and loving Lily and all... for him to die that way was soooo sad. It must've been terrible for him...but at least he got to die looking into Lily's eyes. (well Harry's but you know) Even though my friend hasn't read Deathly Hallows, she found out that Snape died and she said she still hated hi and still thought he was an arse. So when class finished we went down to where our group hangs out and I started yelling at her defending Snape. lol. My friends just looked on. And when I was done my friend I had been arguing with said "whatever I don't care" and walked then one of my other friends turned around and said. "WHAT!? SNAPE DIED!?".......whoops........ but I was defending Snape nevertheless. I wonder how many people always believed Snape was good and never faltered...I'm definetely one of those people...... I'm assuming you're one Silver Ink Pot???? Btw thanks for tissue!! lol *hugs back* The journey may be over but the Harry Potter legacy isn't I don't think the Harry Potter series will ever be forgotten...it's just one of those things that people will never cease talking about. R.I.P Severus Snape. Voldie-Poo go and burn and may the remainder of your dirty soul be eaten by Nargles! Whoo Hoo GO HARRY POTTER! Ok just had to let that all out!


Well I always knew he was good , but I never liked him ( because of his cruelty to the students and talking crudely of the dead). I was sure that I was going to like him a bit more in this book, but I didn't. I sympathized, but to me he was being selfish. I'm not a big on reading about romance and stuff so the Prince's Tale didn't move me the way it did others. I never thought he was evil though. He's definitely not my least favorite character.

I knew it all along !!! I just knew it, I even posted threads about it long ago !!! ah ah !!! I love Snape, you poor boy, he actually was a very sensible man, who would have known ?
"All this time ?"
"Allways"
God !Do I sound proud of myself. Well that's because I am.

I had a bit of a different take on this . Perhaps I just can't get over Snape did call Lily a mudblood.

What I thought was, Lily saw her childhood friend, Sev going down the wrong path, towards the Death Eaters, and she told him off. Snape had a choice not to be a Death Eater. But Snape didn't listen to Lily, he went down the wrong road, and it cost Lily her life.

Snape then had to see Lily's eyes in her son, eyes that were constantly scornful that Snape was still on that same wrong path. Snape did so many things that Lily would have hated, he was so cruel to people like Neville and Hermione. Harry's criticism of Snape would have been Lily's criticism. I think that's why he hated him. It's easier to say Harry is like James, than admit, Harry is very much like his mother.

Perhaps some of it was an act on Dumbledore's orders to keep friendly w/ the Malfoys, etc, but Snape spent 6 years being absolutely horrible to Harry and his classmates, that had to come from somewhere.

I think once Harry understood that Snape loved Lily, he understood why he regretted what he had done. Harry himself had liked the Half Blood Prince as a boy, and he sees that like himself, Snape has never wavered from following Dumbledore's orders. I almost wonder if Harry's acceptance of Snape is almost like Lily's forgiveness.

I thought that Snape's love for Lily was absolutely beautiful.

It struck me extremely ironic about his Patronus taking the form of Lily's because, in HBP he tells Tonks that her new Patronus was weak. But they both took the form of the one they loved.

And Lily's Patronus being a doe while James' was a stag is brilliant!

I thought that Snape's love for Lily was absolutely beautiful.

It struck me extremely ironic about his Patronus taking the form of Lily's because, in HBP he tells Tonks that her new Patronus was weak. But they both took the form of the one they loved.

And Lily's Patronus being a doe while James' was a stag is brilliant!

Snape's doe is also beautiful, it really shows the "best friends forever" thing beautifully. You know who I thought that Patronus was? I thought it was Ginny...

The whole ending to Deathly Hallows is written so beautifully, I can't believe it every time. But The Prince's Tale....JKR really outdid herself.

My respect for Snape dropped a notch when i found out that every choice that he made (such as joining the Death Eaters and becoming a spy for Dumbledore) is because he loved Lily. That doesn't give him a choice in the matter, if his feelings for her are that strong, and it goes against one of the main themes f the whole series - choices.

They never say why he joined the Death Eaters, and Lily hated him for it. It's all what Dumbledore's line - "You disgust me," - was all about. Snape made some horrible choices and paid the price for it. Like Dumbledore said, how many people had Severus seen die with him being at fault or powerless to prevent it? From Lily to poor Charity Burbage...

My opinions on all this:

How wonderful.. And how tragic. I'd said all along, ever since reading OOTP his worst memory was "mudblood" and he adored Lily Evans more than we'd know.

Snape - he is a bad, bad man. Whatever made him this way, I can't say. His parents? His sorting into Slytherin? But something changed him, something snapped in him and caused him to be bitter... He was bitter LONG before Lily's unrequited love and I think even Lily recognised this. Again, Lily had the beauty of seeing how beautiful someone was, even when no one else could.

Snape's life was fueled on his unrequited love for Lily. After Lily died and he proclaims that he wishes he was dead.. That was it. His life probably meant nothing and he would do anything he could to preserve her memory in his mind. "Look at me" as last words for Snape were more fitting than anything. He HAD to stare into the eyes of the woman he loved just that one last time. I have heard stories of people holding on from death.. Until it took someone to say "Just go.." and this is all that Severus needed to be released from his suffering.

It was a tragic way for him to die as Harry never got to say to him face to face.. I'm sorry and vice versa. Snape was designed to be tragic, all the way through the series.

However, I will say, the nature of his love was disturbing. I think we all know that love can destroy somebody and change somebody. Snape's love was obsessive... It was almost like he was a stalker. I agree it was wonderful to watch him from afar, love Lily and adore her and it was tragic not for him to say those words, "I love you".. It was wonderful to see him fight all his life for Lily and her memory, and without him, arguably, Harry wouldn't have been alive to fight Voldemort in book 7.

It was undeniably cute to read some of the things about him.. Letting Lily call him "Sev" (Can't see it, can you? :D). Threatening to sleep outside her common room in order to prove a point. The spring in his step once Lily insults James when he brings up the fact that he fancies her.

Can you imagine how Severus felt after the Mudblood incident and Lily started dating James? We all know in canon that she only dated James after fifth year.. Ater OWL's and thus after the Mudblood incident. I can't help but feel that Lily somewhere deep down did have feelings of a romantic nature for Severus but kept them buried.. She wanted to see that he was willing to make a few changes first and once she was called a mudblood she realised that it was never gonna happen. Severus is who he is and always will be. Though I agree 100% that there was never a "relationship" like that between either of them, however, they always had a very close friendship from the beginning of their childhood so that would be the basis for that opinion. I do, however believe that Lily and James were probably destined/fated to get together. It's a shame that Snape got tangled up in it instead of moving on... But then it shows you how immature he is emotionally.

I believe it was Slughorn in HBP who said, "Don't underestimate the power of obsessive love." Or something along those lines.

And how oh so true was he...?

Oh, Snape, Snape, Snape.. You poor, tragic man.

I hope you finally Rest in Peace!

My respect for Snape dropped a notch when i found out that every choice that he made (such as joining the Death Eaters and becoming a spy for Dumbledore) is because he loved Lily. That doesn't give him a choice in the matter, if his feelings for her are that strong, and it goes against one of the main themes f the whole series - choices.

That's a good one. I had never thought of it that way. I was just so touched and full of tears that Snape was good after all and that he had such deep love inside him. I never thought what Snape would become if not for Lily. Come to think of it, he might be the ultimate evil just second to Voldemort if he hadn't fallen so deep in love with Lily.

This was the one relationship I was hoping to have existed but thought to be unlikely. Unbelievable. Snape's always been my favorite character out of the book because of his complexity and irony, but I'd never have thought his only motivation and the reason why Albus trusted him, was love. Although the epilogue could've been better, I couldn't help it and started crying even harder when Harry told his son, he'd been named after the bravest wizard he'd ever known. And the "Look at me!" part was absolutely stunning, just as someone stated earlier - it was like poetry.

Aww....I was crying and crying and crying all through Prince's Tale...feeling silly for weeping over a book but all the same...
everything about snape's already been said here, but again...
i never gave much notice to snape-loves-lily theories because i thought it would make the series a bit of soap-operic, but it fit in just so wonderfully , gave all the answers to everything snape ever did...i wish snape had died a better death...maybe at least after everybody else knew that he was on the good side...
i also loved the snape-dumbledore relationship that went under the covers. dumbledore DID have a strong enough reason to trust snape despite what everybody was telling him...and he also never told a single soul of the secret of snape loving lily....he actually had tears in his eyes when he saw snape's patronus...its obviously no wonder that snape's patronus was of lily's. after all, i am pretty sure the time he spent with lily is the only thing he can account for as 'happy thoughts'.
i think i am slightly glad that we are not given any canon proof that lily felt anything bordering on 'love' for snape because it would have raised doubts about the unquestionably loving and satisfied family that the potters had. it would have been wrong that lily might rather have chosen someone other than harry's father.
its really tragic that all through snape's life, nobody realized that he was truly always on the good side (at least after lily's death). all the order was always doubting him, and yet he continued on his job...and during the last year not a living soul knew what side snape was on, still he never wavered on his promise to now-dead dumbledore...thats how strong his love for lily was.
i was even crying while reading all the posts in this thread and feeling all the silly-er...
last thought: i love the moment when lily asks him whether being a muggle-born mattered, and he pause and says no it doesn't...i think that the real snape would never have said that... i mean, to him of course, being a muggle-born was a huge deal...it was only because of lily that he would have thought otherwise...my point is, rather than blaming snape for making the wrong choices for joining the death-eaters and bringing about the potters' death, i think that was the real snape, the snape that would have continued to be had lily not been in his life...it was his love for lily that changed his life for good. snape would have been another voldemort...undoubtedly evil, had he never fallen for lily....the choices he made were the true him, it was the unfortunate-yet-lucky love in his life that made him choose differently after lily's death...hope the long tirade made sense to someone.

wow, after reading that chapter i really cried so much. to think that Harry couldn have been Snape's son, if he hadn't been in slytherin. And although i know that James changed later on and inside was a good person, i still started to dislike him more and more as the chapter went on.

I also always knew that Snape had loved Lily, And i believed that to be the reason he became a spy for Dumbledore. I thought it was sad that Snape had to die like that, He had sacrificed his whole life to protect the son of the woman he loved so much...This explains alot about Snapes behavior...I believed that Snape had been emotionally damaged from seeing his parents argue all the time. He was an unhappy child..and friendless and when Lily came along he was happy to have someone that understands him, someone who geniunely wanted to be his friend...But then as the years came along at hogwarts Lily had became popular and had made alot of knew friends and i guess Snape felt left out and his attraction for the dark arts broke his friendship with Lily....I believe Snape in the end did i guess in Dumbledore's words cared for Harry after all.

Question:
Since Snape became a headmaster at Hogwarts, Does he now have a painting like all the others before him?..If he did then i think it was a bit weird harry didn't see him at the end when he went to see Dumbledore.

wow, after reading that chapter i really cried so much. to think that Harry couldn have been Snape's son, if he hadn't been in slytherin. And although i know that James changed later on and inside was a good person, i still started to dislike him more and more as the chapter went on.

Come on do you really think a series called "Harry Snape" would have sold copies? :lol:

In any case, I thought it was made clear that Lily and Severus were just friends?

I absolutely agree

My respect for Snape dropped a notch when i found out that every choice that he made (such as joining the Death Eaters and becoming a spy for Dumbledore) is because he loved Lily. That doesn't give him a choice in the matter, if his feelings for her are that strong, and it goes against one of the main themes f the whole series - choices.
I don't see how Snape loving Lily negates his ability to choose - in fact I would say quite the opposite - that Snape is an example of what happens when people make bad choices. As Dumbledore said Snape's loving Lily was the best part of him. But even though Snape loved her very deeply he made some terrible mistakes through bad choices. He returned to Dumbeldore because he loved Lily - some people think that diminishes his reformation by not to me - he did it out of Love - and that is the big difference between Snape and Voldemort.
I have always considered that Snape, Voldemort and Harry ran in parallel to each other. With Harry and Voldemort at the two extremes and Snape in the middle. Harry has shown that he can love selflessly, and Voldemort cannot love at all and Snape is in the middle, able to love but letting other things get in the way.
By the end I think with Dumbledore's trust Snape had grown a lot. Having been neglected friendless and unloved I think it only took someone to trust and respect him as Dumbledore came to, for Snape to start change - and I do think he changed a lot - especially in the last three books when he was once again spying for Dumbledore. I think that was a real period of emotional growth for Snape.

I always hoped for a Snape/Lily ship but I wasn't sure if JKR would do it. I started to guess when the doe patronus helped Harry- I guessed it was Lily's patronus and so thought about Snape. From the minute he died until the end of the book I just BAWLED thinking about him, it was so, so sad...
As much as I loved the book I do have some problems with it and one is how Snape didn't seem to do much throughout AGAIN; how he died for a reason that, IMO, was a slightly confusing plot point; and how Harry found out so late and then did not react at all until speaking to VM a bit later.
I loved how he called his son after him though, that made up for it a bit.

I agree that Snape and Lily were just friends. I don't know if Snape was emotionally mature enough to ask Lily out. He seemed a bit too socially awkward, even as an adult, let alone a kid. James (and Harry) are the exactly opposite.

I also wondered something. Does Snape resent Harry because he lived and Lily died. Snape asked Voldemort to save Lily, and Voldemort gave her the choice, Lily could have stepped aside, and she would not have been harmed, because of Snape's request. But Lily wouldn't stop shielding her son, so she died, Harry lived. Could this be part of why Snape disliked Harry so much?

I agree that Snape and Lily were just friends. I don't know if Snape was emotionally mature enough to ask Lily out. He seemed a bit too socially awkward, even as an adult, let alone a kid. James (and Harry) are the exactly opposite.

I also wondered something. Does Snape resent Harry because he lived and Lily died. Snape asked Voldemort to save Lily, and Voldemort gave her the choice, Lily could have stepped aside, and she would not have been harmed, because of Snape's request. But Lily wouldn't stop shielding her son, so she died, Harry lived. Could this be part of why Snape disliked Harry so much?

I think the Patronuses tell the story. James, a stag, Lily, a doe (this is why I thought the Patronus in the forest was Ginny's.) Snape, a doe.

I think the reason Snape was so mean to Hermione all those years was because her and Harry reminded him so much of him and Lily.

I think the reason Snape was so mean to Hermione all those years was because her and Harry reminded him so much of him and Lily.

How did Hermione and Harry remind Snape of himself and Lily. I mean Harry isn't like Snape. Though Hermione can be seen like Lily by Blood status, but otherwise I don't see much similarity. :no:

The Prince's Tale was, for me, the most haunting, achingly sad chapter of any of the books. To think that Snape was so devastatingly in love with Lily all those years, that she was the one person in his life that he truly loved, and that he was willing to devote his entire life to protect her son against his every instinct just rips my heart in half. I think he loved her even more than James did, after all his very patronus changed shape. And in the end he was willing to be hated and reviled by just about everybody, just so he could carry out Dumbledore's secret plan and do Lily justice. To me, Snape has just become the bravest, the best, and most tragic character in the entire series.

I will be haunted by that chapter for a long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SKasparRollins
I think the reason Snape was so mean to Hermione all those years was because her and Harry reminded him so much of him and Lily.
How did Hermione and Harry remind Snape of himself and Lily. I mean Harry isn't like Snape. Though Hermione can be seen like Lily by Blood status, but otherwise I don't see much similarity.
I think SKasper means because Harry and Hermione are best friends, and that would certainly remind Snape of himself and Lily.

I also wondered something. Does Snape resent Harry because he lived and Lily died. Snape asked Voldemort to save Lily, and Voldemort gave her the choice, Lily could have stepped aside, and she would not have been harmed, because of Snape's request. But Lily wouldn't stop shielding her son, so she died, Harry lived. Could this be part of why Snape disliked Harry so much?Yes I think so. Snape was always incredibly mean to Harry, but never harmed him. He was such a conflicted man. I can't cope with talking of him in the past tense. :upset:

This was so unexpected for me. I have never really invested in any of the big theories such as this one so it was a really lovely surprise for me. I now cannot wait to read back through the series knowing this about Snape. He has always been my very favourite character and now because of this, if it is possible, I love him even more! I was sobbing through 'The Prince's Tale'. It was such a moving chapter and beautifully written. I think it is probably my favourite. Poor Severus Snape! :upset:

I think SKasper means because Harry and Hermione are best friends, and that would certainly remind Snape of himself and Lily.

But Harry unlike Snape never loved Lily. If that had been the case then I would have agreed with the symbolism.

I don't see how Snape loving Lily negates his ability to choose - in fact I would say quite the opposite - that Snape is an example of what happens when people make bad choices. As Dumbledore said Snape's loving Lily was the best part of him. But even though Snape loved her very deeply he made some terrible mistakes through bad choices. He returned to Dumbeldore because he loved Lily - some people think that diminishes his reformation by not to me - he did it out of Love - and that is the big difference between Snape and Voldemort.
I have always considered that Snape, Voldemort and Harry ran in parallel to each other. With Harry and Voldemort at the two extremes and Snape in the middle. Harry has shown that he can love selflessly, and Voldemort cannot love at all and Snape is in the middle, able to love but letting other things get in the way.
By the end I think with Dumbledore's trust Snape had grown a lot. Having been neglected friendless and unloved I think it only took someone to trust and respect him as Dumbledore came to, for Snape to start change - and I do think he changed a lot - especially in the last three books when he was once again spying for Dumbledore. I think that was a real period of emotional growth for Snape.

Totally agree with this - especially with the parallels between Voldemort, Snape and Harry. It is all about choices and allowing yourself to love and be loved. Snape never allowed himself admit his feelings to Lily and it led him down what was ultimately a brave, lonely and absolutely isolated path. And Snape chose to help Harry - Dumbledore gave him an ultimatum and he chose what was right rather than what was easy. Voldemort never considered the idea of loving someone - Nagini and maybe Bellatrix was as close as he got to the notion of love while Harry embraces it and ultimately it allows him to defeat Voldemort.

I don't think it's weird or freaky that he wanted to look into Harry's eyes when he was dying. He had been alone for so long and wanted to see something that comforted him while he died. I think that's terribly sad and tragic.

The Prince's Tale was, for me, the most haunting, achingly sad chapter of any of the books. To think that Snape was so devastatingly in love with Lily all those years, that she was the one person in his life that he truly loved, and that he was willing to devote his entire life to protect her son against his every instinct just rips my heart in half. I think he loved her even more than James did, after all his very patronus changed shape. And in the end he was willing to be hated and reviled by just about everybody, just so he could carry out Dumbledore's secret plan and do Lily justice. To me, Snape has just become the bravest, the best, and most tragic character in the entire series.

I will be haunted by that chapter for a long time.

Exactly my feelings and thoughts.

I felt for Sevreus.My opnion may change after reading ppls post but it does seem like his feeling for Lily were genuine.His chapter was touching,it showed such a different side to him.Snape suffered from very bad judgement,if he had left the dark arts he would have been better off,and he may have had a chance with lily(it can't be over ruled).
His death was tragic,as was his life.

I also wondered something. Does Snape resent Harry because he lived and Lily died.

I think it's becasue harry looked so much like james(who he sincerly hated),that he thought of him more as James son then Lilies.whihc is a shame because Harry seemed more like Lily to me,he obviously ha her kindness.As Dumbledore said,he saw the flaws in Harry becasue that's what he wanted to see,and associated him with James.

But that too was because he was Lily's son. We could still see him revolting against Harry because he was acting like his father....(refer to when Dumbledore refuses to provide him all the information...)
I'm not denying that much of his reason for protecting Harry was for Lily but I do believe he may have cared for Harry sans Lily too. It's a stretch but who knows?

Anywho, random musing, I thought of you during all of this and I've been waiting for you to show up. You must be so happy that all your theories turned out right.
:D

A lot of my friends told me they thought about me during this chapter. I must have been really REALLY passionate when talking about the theory. *Sniffs and dabs eyes with pride*

You, also, were in the original post-HBP Snape/Lily threads and I also thought about you during the chapter as well as the frequent commenters there. It's been a good, long, hard ride but...yes! :D
I have always considered that Snape, Voldemort and Harry ran in parallel to each other. With Harry and Voldemort at the two extremes and Snape in the middle. Harry has shown that he can love selflessly, and Voldemort cannot love at all and Snape is in the middle, able to love but letting other things get in the way.
By the end I think with Dumbledore's trust Snape had grown a lot. Having been neglected friendless and unloved I think it only took someone to trust and respect him as Dumbledore came to, for Snape to start change - and I do think he changed a lot - especially in the last three books when he was once again spying for Dumbledore. I think that was a real period of emotional growth for Snape.
I agree 100%
I mean Harry isn't like Snape.
Actually, he is like Snape in quite a few ways. There are a lot of similarities between them, as well as Voldemort (the three main Half-Blood characters in the series).

But that may not be appropriate discussion for this thread.

I think SKasper means because Harry and Hermione are best friends, and that would certainly remind Snape of himself and Lily.
Hmm...yes. Half-Blood and a Muggle-Born...

I mean, except for the romance aspect (unfortunately >_>)

i think that the snape story was perfect, i think the relationship with lily answers a lot of questions

Actually, he is like Snape in quite a few ways. There are a lot of similarities between them, as well as Voldemort (the three main Half-Blood characters in the series).

But that may not be appropriate discussion for this thread.

I don't deny, what I meant was that, the similarities that are there aren't of the sort that it would remind him of his relationship with Lily. ;)

I always got the impression that Snape was jealous of any boy who could have a successful relationship (friendship or more) with the opposite sex. I always remember him blasting the bushes at the Yule Ball, and giving Harry detentions so he couldn't spend time with Ginny. It was as if their social abilities mocked his own social ineptness.

The Prince's Tale was, for me, the most haunting, achingly sad chapter of any of the books. To think that Snape was so devastatingly in love with Lily all those years, that she was the one person in his life that he truly loved, and that he was willing to devote his entire life to protect her son against his every instinct just rips my heart in half. I think he loved her even more than James did, after all his very patronus changed shape. And in the end he was willing to be hated and reviled by just about everybody, just so he could carry out Dumbledore's secret plan and do Lily justice. To me, Snape has just become the bravest, the best, and most tragic character in the entire series.

I will be haunted by that chapter for a long time.

Me too, I was very upset when I read his death and the following chapter, which didn't help by finding out Lupin and Tonks die like three pages later. I was reeling from these deaths and then I read Snape's memories and I just bawled and had to stop reading for a while. Snape's death and what we find out about him affected me more than anything else in the book. I wasn't happy with his death, VM seemed to know nothing about the Elder Wand which didn't make sense to me- he should have known that if Snape was the master, like VM thought, then the wand wouldn't have worked on him. Or would it?

What I thought was, Lily saw her childhood friend, Sev going down the wrong path, towards the Death Eaters, and she told him off. Snape had a choice not to be a Death Eater. But Snape didn't listen to Lily, he went down the wrong road, and it cost Lily her life.

Snape then had to see Lily's eyes in her son, eyes that were constantly scornful that Snape was still on that same wrong path. Snape did so many things that Lily would have hated, he was so cruel to people like Neville and Hermione. Harry's criticism of Snape would have been Lily's criticism. I think that's why he hated him. It's easier to say Harry is like James, than admit, Harry is very much like his mother.

I think once Harry understood that Snape loved Lily, he understood why he regretted what he had done. Harry himself had liked the Half Blood Prince as a boy, and he sees that like himself, Snape has never wavered from following Dumbledore's orders. I almost wonder if Harry's acceptance of Snape is almost like Lily's forgiveness.


Lots of good points here, JCalder. Lily is the only one who ever got into Severus's heart. He is not a good person. He's a horrible person who's in love. Its the age old question of "are the right actions still right for are done for the wrong reasons?" Severus doesnt come to the good side because he is good. We never see proof that he sees the error of his moral attrocities. Snape does it all for Lily. If she hadn't died because of his mistake, would he have ever come back? Snape is tragic in so many senes of the word. He could have been happy, grown into a better person had he not chosen to be sorted into Slytherin. We saw from his childhood discussions with Lily, pre Hogwarts, that he had no probem with Muggle borns. Lily saw the good in him. It was definately there. But as he grew it disappeared and the only thing left was his overwheling love for Lily. He lived for 17 years just to avenge the death of the women he loved and killed. Once he was sure he had done all he could to keep Lily from dying in vain, he died. Or rather was brutally and humiliatingly murdered. Snape's love for Lily is the only thing that redeems him......

To the question of Snape resenting Harry for living while Lily died, I think there is a small element of that; however, I think he was just glad that something of her survived.

In Harry, Severus at least had something to do, some purpose that he could serve for Lily. In his mind, I am sure that he felt his actions would show his love.

I would like to start by saying, yes I was wrong. Since all the clues pointed to Snape being good, I thought the twist would be that he was bad. This amazingly written chapter changed my mind completely! I can completely understand that by looking at Harry everyday Snape was torn up inside. I wish he could have been honest with LILy and told him how he felt.

We never see proof that he sees the error of his moral attrocities.

I would disagree with that, I think we definitely see a very, very different Snape in the Pensieve than the one we knew, and he slowly becomes someone who has not only recognised the error of his ways- and not just Lily's death- but one who is determined to fight for the good side. We see though various comments he makes that he is not just a bad person who loved Lily. He defends Hermione when she is called mudblood (!), he tells DD the only people he has killed are ones he could not save, he accuses DD of raising Harry like a pig for slaughter (something I agreed with at the time I have to say), and most of all he shows immense bravery every day risking his life for Harry and everyone else. If Snape did not have a moral conscience he would surely not bother keeping DDs wishes, he wouldn't have helped Harry.

I really really wonder if Lily had a feeling that Snape fancied her. I hope somebody asks JKR that question!

I always got the impression that Snape was jealous of any boy who could have a successful relationship (friendship or more) with the opposite sex. I always remember him blasting the bushes at the Yule Ball, and giving Harry detentions so he couldn't spend time with Ginny. It was as if their social abilities mocked his own social ineptness.

Very well said. Snape has always been a little hypocritical in this regard, that he considered others who showed the emotion of love as fools and yet lead his entire life trying to protect the son of his love. :err:

I really really wonder if Lily had a feeling that Snape fancied her. I think if she hadn't twigged, Mary would have told her! It must have been obvious to Lily's friends.

I don't know whether this has been mention in this thread, because I skipped the last few pages.

How Harry eyes are similar to his mother also work in a metaphorical sense. He may have James looks, but he the way he see things are so much like his mother. Like Lily, Harry sees the best in people, something that people (even Lupin too) sees that this could be a flaw.

I love the Prince's Tale chapter. Probably the best part of the book. I never like Snape that much as a character, nor I paid much attention to the whole Snape love Lily thing. But this is a beautifully written chapter, and you can feel how longing Snape was for someone who saw something good in himself, because that's something that even he himself can't see. My heart break for Snape, after that. It's truly heart wrenching when he died, the last thing he want to see is her eyes.

One of the most tragic love story ever written I think.

btw, I always thought the "Always" line was referring to Harry, not Lily.

This relationship between Snape and Lily had to be one of the saddest and most emotional stories I've experienced in a fictional world. I was absolutely shocked when I read The Prince's Tale.

It seemed as though he lived only to protect and help Harry and lost his life trying to protect the last memory of Lily that he had, which at the same time, was the most painful reminder of James he had to experience.

I think Snape deserved to die a more worthy death, something befitting of a Hero of his caliber. She didn't even emphasize this death in the book. That was probably one of the few gripes I had with DH. Snape's death deserved a whole chapter by itself. I don't care if the book ended up 1000 pages.

His death definitely deserved more emphasis and emotion than Dumbledore's, especially since we find out Dumbledore was going to die regardless of Snape.

All I can say is that thanks to COS, I didn't exactly fall off my chair when I read about the Sev/Lily ship. Kudos to random and the others for this brilliant theory pre-DH. I wouldn't have caught it if not for you guys.

I think if she hadn't twigged, Mary would have told her! It must have been obvious to Lily's friends.
Haha, Snape was probably known amongst them as "that weird Slytherin boy who won't stop pining over Lily"!

Kudos to random and the others for this brilliant theory pre-DH. I wouldn't have caught it if not for you guys.
:D

I was one of those who didn't believe the Snape loves Lily bit so put my hands up to admit I was wrong. I agree with apprator in that it was heartbreaking that Snape wanted to look into Harry's eyes as they were his link to Lily even though everything else about him constantly reminded him of the man who 'stole' her away from him!

I think if she hadn't twigged, Mary would have told her! It must have been obvious to Lily's friends.

Also since Snape stayed all night out side the common room waiting for her it was pretty clear he cared for her. What I think the important question is is whether she felt anything back at any point. Who knows had he not called her a mudblood the book could have been called "Harry Snape and the Deathly Hallows"

I thought that it was unlikely that Snape and Lily would have shared a relationship within Hogwarts itself because of the incident in SWM. The only other likely conclusion is that they had to have known each other prior to Hogwarts and that actually turned out to be true. It wrenched my heart to realise his story - I think Snape was one of the most complex characters in this series and JKR certainly displayed that she is a master and deserved the accolades that HP brought her.

She really drew me from hating the slimeball to crying when he cried for Lily and mourning his death. I felt his conflict and his torture and his hope that his efforts to save the son of the only woman he ever truly loved would have brought him to her forgiveness and brought him the peace he never knew in life.

What I think the important question is is whether she felt anything back at any point.
I'd like to think that she still cared for him. The poor girl was probably so worried and afraid that her best friend was dabbling too deep into Dark Arts and Death Eater business. I don't think she could possibly just regect and move on from such a long friendship without still caring.

I was pretty sure Snape loved Lily already, ever since the scene harry saw in the penseive where James and Sirius pick a fight with him. I never noticed the fact that snape doesn't use the term mudbloods at all... i think. I found that interseting cause it shows how much he hated himself for using that term, as he came to loose lily for it.

I wasnt shocked by the relationship but rather sad that there wasn't more info on how she and James got to be together.

Almost ALL of my Snape Lily relationship theories were proven true! Snape being "that awful boy", Snape being in love with Lily, Snape asking Voldemort to spare Lily, and Snape going to Dumbledore's side due to the prophecy disaster. What I DIDN'T see was the childhood friendship aspect!

Anyway, I, as well as many people who have theorized this for years, should be VERY pleased with the results. It was perfect. Absolutely perfect.

Yeah I am pleased with how it turned out too! After following the Dev of Sev in HBP thread for two years since the book's release, I was so convinced that Snape loved Lily [ah we have some really brilliant seers here!], that if it turned out otherwise I would have been really shocked.:lol: When I read the Petunia eavesdropping on Snape and Lily's conversation on Azkaban part, I was grinning to myself haha. :D Great job, people!

Anyway, even though Snape told Dumbledore [and proved it with his patronus] that all along, he cared only about Lily, I think he DID care about Harry [and Dumbledore] as the years went past, through his many actions we have witnessed throughout the seven books. I believe Snape did not realize that, in fact I agree with what Dumbledore mentioned in Prince's Tale: Snape was Sorted too soon. The shock on Snape's face really made me think, perhaps Snape didn't recognize many good qualities in himself.

Aww Snape's last words really touched me greatly. I read the part and Prince's Tale thrice, and found myself bawling my eyes out each time. I love how, in his dying moments, Snape could finally look at Harry and see the Lily in him. In the end, he died thinking about Lily [I guess!]. His unrequited(?) love moves me deeply. :upset:

I also felt that Snape was drawing a parallel with himself [whether knowingly or not] when he made the comment to Tonks in HBP that her new patronus looked weak. Well, his patronus is due to his obsessive love for someone too, and IMHO it was even more unhealthy [though beautiful it is] than Tonk's love for Lupin.

Reckon when Jo was talking about many unintended foreshadowing in the POA movie, the part when Alan Rickman's Snape protected the trio with his body as a shield is one of them? :D

I was one who didn't pay much attention to the Snape loves Lily theories, though I knew it existed. After reading DH, I think JKR did it brilliantly, and totally in keeping with Snape's character. I was already pretty much constantly sobbing by the time I got to that chapter (from Dobby's death on, I didn't really stop crying), but like many others, I had to stop and get myself together after seeing that Snape's patronus was a doe. Beautifully written, and just heart-breaking. How much would have been different if Snape has just stopped himself from saying "Mudblood"?

I was pretty sure Snape loved Lily already, ever since the scene harry saw in the penseive where James and Sirius pick a fight with him. I never noticed the fact that snape doesn't use the term mudbloods at all... i think. I found that interseting cause it shows how much he hated himself for using that term, as he came to lose lily for it.
Exactly. And in "The Prince's Tale," when the painting of Phineas Nigellus uses the term "Mudblood" for Hermione, Snape says "Do not use that word!"

(page 689 American edition)

I really loved the Pensieve part. It didn't come as a shock to me, especially since I had already figured out the the doe patronus was Snape's because he loved Lily, but it was still so sweet! I never would have thought that they were childhood friends and the way that they're friendship ended was so tragic. Not to mention Snape's very last line, "Look...at...me". Talk about gut wrenching!

Almost ALL of my Snape Lily relationship theories were proven true! Snape being "that awful boy", Snape being in love with Lily, Snape asking Voldemort to spare Lily, and Snape going to Dumbledore's side due to the prophecy disaster. What I DIDN'T see was the childhood friendship aspect!

Anyway, I, as well as many people who have theorized this for years, should be VERY pleased with the results. It was perfect. Absolutely perfect.

First of all random musing.. Well done! I'm pretty sure I posted in the Snape loves Lily thread and had a good deal to say myself.. So yes, I was more than satisfied when it all came true - especially after all the stick we got off people!! :) But no, I won't gloat, it isn't allowed. It's in the past :). You probably won't remember me from those threads.. I post very sporadically.. I'm more of a lurker.


Anyway, even though Snape told Dumbledore [and proved it with his patronus] that all along, he cared only about Lily, I think he DID care about Harry [and Dumbledore] as the years went past, through his many actions we have witnessed throughout the seven books. I believe Snape did not realize that, in fact I agree with what Dumbledore mentioned in Prince's Tale: Snape was Sorted too soon. The shock on Snape's face really made me think, perhaps Snape didn't recognize many good qualities in himself.

I think the proof of Snape caring for Dumbledore is the way he looks after his arm and his curse.. His ferocity when he tells Dumbledore he should have come sooner.. That he could have bought him more time.. My theories on him caring for Harry are simple. He may have been Lily's son, but he was also James's son. How many people would go out of there way to care for the son of their mortal enemy no matter how much they love the other person? Not many... I think this in some way is evidence that he may have come to care for Harry, even if it's just a little bit.. And yes, it was fueled on Lily's love, but that's my belief.

I also felt that Snape was drawing a parallel with himself [whether knowingly or not] when he made the comment to Tonks in HBP that her new patronus looked weak. Well, his patronus is due to his obsessive love for someone too, and IMHO it was even more unhealthy [though beautiful it is] than Tonk's love for Lupin.

I've brought up the Tonk's patronus thing on another forum. I thought it was incredibly hypocritical and ironic.. Snape doesn't like wearing his heart on his sleeve - we know that.. But at the end of the day Tonk's and Snape had something in common.. And how does that make her weak? Surely Snape is saying he's weak as well! Maybe he DOES see himself as weak because of his love for Lily and how it's "trapped" him until his dying days. I don't know.

Reckon when Jo was talking about many unintended foreshadowing in the POA movie, the part when Alan Rickman's Snape protected the trio with his body as a shield is one of them? :D

I think she meant many things. Hermione grabbing Ron's hand... Lupin having a chat to Harry about how his mother saw the good in people even when other's didn't.. And of course Snape jumping in front of the kids. :)

Firstly, although I've done a bit of lurking here, this is my first post. Secondly, wow! I've just gone through these whole fifteen pages and I'm not sure if there is much I can add,but...

The Princes Tale,like so many others have said, is by far my favourite chapter of the series. I can't get it out of my head. I so wanted Snape to be good, but as DH progressed, his instillation as Headmaster, ect, I felt his soul must be doomed. As soon as I saw him with Lily and Petunia I thought he must be "that awful boy".(As to earlier references of Lily being seen as a freak by Petunia, I believe that was pure jealously... after Dumbledore rebuffed Petunia, the only way she could deal with Lily being accepted into the Wizarding World was to totally reject it herself).

I beleive Snapes love for Lily grew entirely out of his isolation. Here was the only magical person he had contact with, other than his mother. The doctrine that she would have laid on him was that pure blood/ slytherin was the only acceptable status,yet here was someone who found him interesting and offered him a hand of friendship - he could overlook Lily's blood status because she was the only person he knew who was 'like him'. His treatment at home made her friendship towards him the most powerful thing he had before Hogwarts.

For me the most painful thing in the chapter was when "Snape looked stricken" when Dumbledore said "we sort too early". Harry said in the epilogue that the hat will take your choice into account; even after Lily had been sorted toGryffindor, Snape still elected for Slytherin, because of the bias that was set toward it by his mother - even though he did not particularly like his homelife, the most important thing to him at this point was that he was a wizard and he had grown upbeing taught to scorn all but pure blood. It's the nature/ nurture argument. When Dumbledore said this he realised that had he been so misguided in his youth, had he been a Gryffindor his relationships with all Gryffindors would have been different. In later years his double agent role displayed to as great an extent as ANY character, the characteristics needed for a Gryffindor.His fascination with Dark Arts I believe grew out of the influence he was under in the house.

I never saw until reading this thread that, "Look at me" meant seeing Lily/ Harry's eyes; I took it to mean, This is me, these mermories are what have driven me.

I only now entered the discussion,due to late awakening :)...anyways,I think that as all Snape-love-Lily theories came true,along came justice for Snape..."Some people are just born with tragedy in their blood.."Now,doesn't that fit in?
By the way,didn't you love just how Harry's son was called Albus Severus?

I cried so much when I read that chapter, which remains to be one of my favourites from the book. It explains why he hated James aswell as him loving Lily. Did anyone else think that when Dumbledore said about HArry spending more time in detention than out, that Snape might just have wanted to be near Harry because he reminded him of Lily or was it purely because he didn't like him? he reminded him of james

Even though I liked it a great deal I was not at all surprised at the Snape Lily revelation. I had heard so many time before that Snape could have been in love with her so I wasn't so shocked.

I was shocked by other things in Snape's memory.

For me the most painful thing in the chapter was when "Snape looked stricken" when Dumbledore said "we sort too early". Harry said in the epilogue that the hat will take your choice into account; even after Lily had been sorted toGryffindor, Snape still elected for Slytherin, because of the bias that was set toward it by his mother - even though he did not particularly like his homelife, the most important thing to him at this point was that he was a wizard and he had grown upbeing taught to scorn all but pure blood. It's the nature/ nurture argument. When Dumbledore said this he realised that had he been so misguided in his youth, had he been a Gryffindor his relationships with all Gryffindors would have been different. In later years his double agent role displayed to as great an extent as ANY character, the characteristics needed for a Gryffindor.His fascination with Dark Arts I believe grew out of the influence he was under in the house.

Hi, welcome and don't be ashamed of lurking. I've been doing it for a long time, too.

Ok. I found everything about that chapter painful, but I am so, so glad that Dumbledore brought this up.

For a long time I've been saying that Severus exhibited more qualities of a Gryffindor than anything else.. And oh boy, people must have thought I was insane, but for everyone's "blessed" Dumbledore to say it.. Lets just say I was thrilled!

I disagree over his fascination of the dark arts though. In one way, yes, I believe his Mother probably convinced him to become a Slytherin. It's kind of the same in Politics. I remember in my Politics class how many people voted because of the influence of what their parents vote.. And about 98% of the people in their raised their hands.. INCLUDING me, but it also so happens that I agree with my decision (Though my parents must have helped with that?)

I think from the canon we get, whether we believe the Marauders or not, Snape already had a fairly decent grasp of the Dark Arts already. Which is why I don't think it breeded/started inside Slytherin. I agree that Slytherin caused it to come out more. Snape was incredibly alone and isolated in his life with little company but Lily. Suddenly he gets on a train with arrogant kids who proclaim all this stuff about Gryffindor V Slytherin and of course he is going to think, "I'll be Slytherin then if you're gonna call me names." Though there is no denying that his choice was already influenced greatly by his Mother.

It's quite clear that asking the Sorting Hat to Sort him into Gryffindor would have meant more isolation, more bullying and more humiliation for Severus.. He knows at least from his Mother's experience, and perhaps from the fact of what he's already learned about the Dark Arts that he'd possibly be welcomed with open arms in Slytherin. I believe this is where he "fed" his isolation. He was smart with the Dark Arts.. Slytherins appreciated that.. Possibly even respected him and thus he felt an air of acceptance surround him.. Something he believed he wouldn't receive in Gryffindor. How Lily affected his status within Slytherin - I've no clue. I'm sure they probably mocked him for it but at the same time were wary of someone with that much knowledge of the Dark Arts.. Lets face it, half the kids in Slytherin become the Death Eaters.. They're gonna wanna feed off Severus's knowledge of them.

He also believed he didn't need to be in Gryffindor to love Lily. He is right. Why would anyone need to be that? He can still hang around Lily. Nothing wrong with that. I think however this is where it starts to go tragically wrong. Severus who believed "there wasn't anything wrong with Muggleborns being wizards" was soon noticed with Lily by the Slytherin crowd and was soon pushed about, cajoled and basically peer pressured into the then-Slytherin-Death-Eatery opinion of: All Mudbloods are scum of the wizarding world. And being around that influence everyday eventually rubbed off on him. But could he see Lily as any different? No. I truly believe the Mudblood comment was a slip of the tongue. He was angry and humiliated that a girl leapt to his defence - He hit out at the only thing he could: Lily's lineage.

He's truly sorry for it, I believe, which makes it even more tragic. He's so emotionally immature he just couldn't say, "I'm sorry, Lily. I'm sorry because this is who I am and this is the way I reacted and this is why.. And you wanna know why I've never called you that before? It's because I love you."

Things could have turned out a lot differently, imho.. If Lily could see past that in HER in-some-sense-immaturity at the time, I personally think she would have had a lot more of a chance of changing him from the Death Eater path if he HAD came out and admitted his feelings for her.

At the same time, I am of the belief that Lily is blind if she didn't see the way that Severus felt for her.. But I'm also a believer that a lot of guys felt that way about her so why should Severus be any different? At the same time, I can't help but think that the "Mudblood" comment was a changing point of her life.

It is only AFTER the "mudblood" comment that she dates James. I am not saying that her and Severus HAD a romantic relationship, but I do believe that she harboured perhaps a form OF romantic feelings for Severus but was far more interested in seeing a change set in stone from him before spilling the beans.. Which brings them both at a gridlock. They weren't meant to be because neither could come out and admit their feelings (which is purely my belief)... If they had, I do think things would have been massively different.. Snape saying them would have caused Lily to more or less say "prove it" and the possibility of him giving up the Death Eaters.. Lily saying it (if she possibly even felt that way) would have shown Snape that he had acceptance and he didn't need anything BUT her to live on (And bare in mind that he realises when he's older that he didn't need anything but her to live on anyway, but we're talking about an immature 15 year old here - though he still turns into an immature 30-something..).. But the reason why neither said it or came clean?.. They were both unbelievably STUBBORN and similar in that sense. Neither would budge without the other.

But my basis for saying Lily perhaps had feelings for Snape? It's purely because of the Mudblood comment and then dating James after it. Before that she thought James was a bit of a jerk.. I dunno. It seems a bit too coincidential to me.

Beyond the fact that Severus was sorted into Slytherin, I think if there was more honesty and upfrontness with each other that those things wouldn't have mattered. And to me, that's more proof than anything that people are sorted too soon. It's just a name at the end of the day.. A label. And to tar everyone with the same label is incredibly difficult.. Everyone has an individual personality :).

I cried so much when I read that chapter, which remains to be one of my favourites from the book. It explains why he hated James aswell as him loving Lily. Did anyone else think that when Dumbledore said about HArry spending more time in detention than out, that Snape might just have wanted to be near Harry because he reminded him of Lily or was it purely because he didn't like him? he reminded him of james
Yes, many of us think that possibly Snape just wanted more time with Harry. The detention was just busy work, really, and it's a shame that the time wasn't spent telling Harry all about his mother. But realistically, knowing Snape's nature, and Harry's resentment, there was really no way for them to connect in a father and son way. And because Harry never learned Occlumency, Snape just couldn't tell him the truth about he and Lily or the Dark Lord would have seen it in Harry's mind.

So I think the more objective Pensieve was the perfect way for JKR to show those memories to Harry. He has to accept them as the truth, and he does. What Snape gave him was priceless, because he learned things about Lily and Petunia that he never knew before.

People have always asked "Where are Lily's friends?" I was one of those people, because I thought it was lopsided to always talk about James and the Marauders without knowing anything about Lily. But now we know - Snape was her best friend most of her life.

I've thought all the way that Snape is good and DD trusted him because of his love for Lily, but I've NEVER thought his love to be that deep! I've re-read the part on Prince over 6 times so far. I cried everytime when I read to the part that Snape produced a doe and said "always". It's also touching that Harry named his son with Lily's eyes Severus and finally admitted Snape's probably the bravest man he's ever met!

Do you think Snape loved Lily more than James did? I used to think James and Lily were made for each other. But seeing Snape (who can care about someone who's the son of your enemy and looks exactly like him just because he's also the son of the woman you love, even after all those years?), it makes James love like a childish fancy only. Really hope Rowling have elaborated more on James & Lily!

I loved the revelation of this relationship! I had heard theories about it before but I was never one to look too closely into theories, preferring to find out for myself.

And yes the whole chapter I was almost in tears (I would have been in tears literally had my family not been in the car with me at the time) and from completely hating Snape in the last book and most of this book, he became one of the characters who's story really touched me.

I also thought at first that when Snape said "Look at me" he was telling Harry to look at him and accept him for what he was but then I when I went back to it and saw that JK mentioned Harry's green eyes, I realised that he actually wanted to see Lily's eyes once before he died.

All in all, Snape's story is one of the most tragic ones and he was a true hero in my opnion.

I had wondered if when Petunia referred to "that boy" she might not be referring to Snape rather than James...after all she always referred to James as 'that Potter." This seems to confirm it.

I also found that a bit weird, because when Petunia met James Potter he must have been around 17-18 - and "that boy" didn't seem to fit. I had no idea they'd met so early though.

Ever since Dumbledore started hinting at his "iron-clad" reason for trusting Snape, I thought it must be that he loved Lily. That would convince Dumbledore.

basically peer pressured into the then-Slytherin-Death-Eatery opinion of: All Mudbloods are scum of the wizarding world. And being around that influence everyday eventually rubbed off him. But could he see Lily as any different? No. I truly believe the Mudblood comment was a slip of the tongue. He was angry and humiliated that a girl leapt to his defence - He hit out at the only thing he could: Lily's lineage.


Thanks for the weclome,not sure if this is how you do the quotey bit,but here goes.

I agree that it was peer pressure that led to the Mudblood comment, but not quite so sure about the previous Dark Arts knowledge. I feel that he so desperately needed to belong that his Wizarding heritage was the only belonging he had and was so tied up in being a Slytherin to verify his position. His love for Lily also grew out of a similar acceptance and verification of himself as a person - his self esteem was so low that her 'value' of him put her on a similar pedestal as magic. When he disgusts Dumbledore by only pleading for Lily it is because he is still so blinkered, he doesn't 'see' James and Harry all that matters to him is her safety. I think that the greatest thng is his redemption is that he does come to care for Harry. Although it is driven for his love for Lily, the fact that she died to save her son is juxtaposed with the fact that Harry is her legacy. His hatred of James is something he has to battle with constantly, but I think it is because he envies the person James became in order for Lily to fall in love with him.

I never suspected Snape of loving anyone or having loved anyone for that matter. So reading 'The prince's tale' was very shocking. I love the whole affection he had for her though, it made me cry :(

JKR just wrote everything in such a perfect way, it's impossible not to feel bad for Snape and love him and admire him <333

I loved how this surfaced.
Is this the relationship JKR talked about a long time ago when she said something like
'there is one relationship that is the centre of everything'
i think it is!

I always thought that the theory about Snape loving Lily was so far-fetched, so I was really surprised. I keep wondering now how I didn't see it - all that guff that Dumbledore came out with about Snape trying so hard to keep Harry safe in PS because he wanted to repay a life-debt to James - as if, he was just in love with his mum! I actually feel so sorry for Snape now; just think of the torment he must have felt every time Harry looked at him with loathing - to see the eyes of someone you love looking at you full of hatred - poor guy. He's really very sweet.

Do you think Snape loved Lily more than James did? I used to think James and Lily were made for each other. But seeing Snape (who can care about someone who's the son of your enemy and looks exactly like him just because he's also the son of the woman you love, even after all those years?), it makes James love like a childish fancy only. Really hope Rowling have elaborated more on James & Lily!


ehm...I kinda always thought that unfullfilled loves grow stronger and stronger as time goes by.Remember "the notebook"?
Nontheless,you can't go and say just like that that James' love for Lily was "a childish fancy only"....After all they ended up married with a child,and everyone kept saying what a great couple they were ;)

I always suspected it, actually. :3 I really did.

I was surprised at the fact that they had known each other before Hogwarts. I never suspected that. I think the friendship was based on the fact that Severus was finally in control - he had found someone who didn't know something that he did, and that made him excited. Plus, I think he was awed by her personality, so very different from his. Whereas Lily is concerned, I think she's just the type who would befriend anyone as long as she can see decency. And remember what Remus said in Prisoner of Azkaban (or at least the film version)? He said that she could see the best in others, even when that person couldn't see it in himself. Was he talking about himself? Or was he talking about Snape? I always imagined that Remus knew of Lily and Severus' affections. -shrug-

Lily could see the goodness deep down that Severus possessed, and that's why she remained friends. She just didn't want to give up. I don't think they showed their friendship much to other Gryffindors and Slytherins, or perhaps ... perhaps Severus got teased, beaten up, hexed etc, and Lily decided to distance herself from him to keep him safe? Or vice versa, which might make more sense. Severus could have gotten humiliated, and in Snape's Worst Memory we see that Sirius and James didn't seem to realise that Lily and Severus had affection. By that point I think Severus could see that Lily could get hurt, and had probably been pretending to his fellow Slytherins that he didn't know her, and so forgot she was there when he called her a Mudblood.

I think Lily sort of forgave him after a while. When she grew up, perhaps she realised that he hadn't meant much harm. When he became a Death Eater I think Lily would have been very surprised - she knew that he was interested in the Dark Arts, but she probably hadn't been expecting that. She probably saw it as Severus betraying her and the "good side".

Dumbledore said that "it is not our abilities, but our choices". Severus chose not to say no to the Sorting Hat, even though Lily had been sorted into Gryffindor. Perhaps he was thinking "if she gets put in Gryffindor, then it proves that we're too different" or something like that.

hello everyone, im relatively new here (and have tried 3 times to post...but it keeps loggin me out! grr)

nehoos, i just have one quick (and perhaps stupid) question, what is the significance of snape having a doe patronus? How come this moved dumbledore to tearrs?? Because after that he asked snape "after all time?" to which snape replied "always" i took this to mean that DD was asking snape that after all this timehe still loved lily?

I cant quite make out whether snape helped harry to serve her memory or it was truly out of the goodness of his heart - "the best of him"...ne thoughts?

neways, just to conclude with 2 cents...ive been a snape basher until very recently, and what sealed my love was when he told phineas off for calling hermione a mudblood.

"...i heard the mudblood say..."
"do not use that word!"

awww

Delighted to be here discussing this enchanting, puzzling, thought-provoking book.

Oooh, hell, this is sad - but here is my question:

When Snape lay dying, with Harry beside him, he gave out his memory.

He said "Look at me". Was that -- look at my memories, look at my life, look at me, look at who I am, look at all of my life, how I have been Dumbledore's man, at his side, all this time.

Or was it "Look at me" so that I can see Lily's eyes once more before I die?

Hey that's clever, I never looked at it that way, I assumed {and think it probably is} wanting to look into Lily's eyes, but that is creative. The only thing I didn't like about the final book is that Snape died, he was my hero and so darn hot!

I loved this chapter. It is my favourite in the whole series!

It had everything I had ever thought about the relationship and more.

I had been one of the "Snape-loved-Lily" shippers. I had, however, thought that his loved had been repressed and that, though she would have attempted it, her acts of friendship towards him would have been rejected.

But this was so much deeper! I really liked how he didn't really care about her blood. That was something he would have picked up from his "friends".

And it was beautiful that the importance of Harry's eyes was not a he-can-use-them-to-perform-spells thing, but that they reminded Snape of his love.

So much can be explained back to this. And so many questions arise from it too! Do you reckon Snape and Lily worked on potions together? Do you think that she ever defended Snape to the marauders after getting with Potter? How did Voldemort feel to agreeing not to kill a muggleborn, that his follower loved her?

And yes I think that in the end Snape cared for Harry. I think that Harry had her essence and that he was the last little piece of her in the world. Snape just wanted to see her eyes again and again.

But my truly favourite part was when Snape told Phillius not to call Hermione a "mudblood".

Snape was good. The hat sorts too early. Snape died a Gryffindor.

He said "Look at me". Was that -- look at my memories, look at my life, look at me, look at who I am, look at all of my life, how I have been Dumbledore's man, at his side, all this time.

Or was it "Look at me" so that I can see Lily's eyes once more before I die?
Ohhh I love that theory!!
I read an awesome essay on Snape being in love with Lily about two weeks before DH, and after that was convinced that he loved her, because it made so much sense. Chapter thirtythree was the absolute BEST in my opinion, it gave us more information than the first three hundred pages.
I wish Snape had lived, so he could have spent more time with Harry, but I think that if he lived, Harry would probably never get the whole truth about his mother and Snape - or probably even ever find out that Snape had loved her.
But wouldn't Lupin or Sirius have remembered Lily hanging around with Snape in their younger years? Especially if James had fancied her for a while, and they always teased Snivellus - surely they would have taken a lot of notice of the two hanging around together?

I actually like Snape soooo much more than James now. Snape seems so much worthier of Lily's love somehow. I hope he got her in the end, somehow... in some alternate universe... ahemmmmm.

But my truly favourite part was when Snape told Phillius not to call Hermione a "mudblood".

Snape was good. The hat sorts too early. Snape died a Gryffindor.
- You're seriously going to make me cry! =P

So much can be explained back to this. And so many questions arise from it too! Do you reckon Snape and Lily worked on potions together?
Hermione said the handwriting in the book was feminie-looking. It's possible Lily and Snape actually worked on the book together.

And remember what Remus said in Prisoner of Azkaban (or at least the film version)? He said that she could see the best in others, even when that person couldn't see it in himself. Was he talking about himself? Or was he talking about Snape? I always imagined that Remus knew of Lily and Severus' affections. -shrug-



I think that this was some way of psychological foreshadowing,when we read it in PoA,we thought it solely meant Lupin,but all these years later...Others fit in too ;)After all Lupin was a very clever and witty person,and I always thought that there was loads of stuff everyone could learn from him...

I think snapes sacrifice was pretty noble. even if it was for Lily's sake. its hard to swallow your pride to protect the son of someone you detest so much.. someone who humilated you and in the end took the girl you loved as James did..

i think the importance of harry having lily's eyes is that it was probably the thing that kept snape protecting harry all these years because looking at harry probably reminds him of Lily..

Well, I was very surprised that Snape and Lily were pre-Hogwarts friends. I was SHOCKED that Petunia had really WANTED to be like Lily. However, the early memory certainly made the "I heard that boy tell her" comment about the dementors clear!

I think Lily was a strong, loving, caring person and I am not surprised that she continued to be friends with Snape after they were sorted into different houses. I do not think that Lily would EVER have become a Death Eater or interested in the Dark Arts. She clearly showed that she was interested in "fair play" and she would not have done something that stepped on other people.

I doubt that Lily ever forgave Snape for calling her a mudblood and I think that is the reason that post-OWL incident was his worst memory. He truly loved Lily, enough so that his patronus changed to a Doe, and one careless, thoughtless, rude comment at a bad moment cost him not only a chance for them to become a couple, but cost him his one true friend.

I am re-reading the chapter (again) whilst writing here. I love the bit where Snape starts to give out about Potter and his mates - what are they getting up to? And Lily is like "I know your theory". Remind anyone of Hermione questioning Harry's Malfoy theories?

Lily's patronus was a doe because she loved James. (James anaimagus form was stag.)
Snape's partonus was a doe because he loved Lily. So in wierd way Snape's patronus was a symbol of Lily's love for her husband.

I think Snape epitomizes Voldemorts greatest flaw. Snape wasn't exactly good. He joins Dumbledore only because he loved Lily and he blamed himslef for her death. Voldemort lost one of his greatest followers in Snape only because he failed to recognise the power of love.
In their fifth year Lily accuses Snape of wanting to join the Death Eaters. Snape does not deny it. Which obvioulsy means that becoming a detah eater was a choice that Snape made voluntarily.


In their fifth year he calls her a mudblood infront of the whole school only to save his pride infront of his fellow Slytherin classmates.
But the fact that he had indirectly brought about her death makes him risk his rest of his life to honor her sacrifice.

Their relationship brings everything into perspective. In Snape's Worst Memory, Harry did not feel sorry for Snape at all while and after vieving this particular memory in the pensieve. He felt angry at James for bullying Snape. For Harry, the father he held up at the pedestal just wasn't the man he expected him to act. However, this shows that Harry should also be sorry the way Snape and Lily's relationship ended.

Once again, Jo proves us to be a wonderful storyteller... I mean, I was, I think, 70% sure he was evil... I think I used to dislike him a lot, how comes now I'm in love with him? Jo, you're just a genius.
I knew the theory about him being in love with Lily, and thought it possible, but not so deep and so important. It shows us a new Snape, we didn't know him at all for six books!
You know, I don't think Lily did actually love him back, she was too young at the time, but she sure saw something good in him behind all the rest.
I think also Snape proctected Harry mostly becouse of Lily, but in the end he was a little fond of Harry himself, thought he wouldn't admit it event to himself.
Anyway, did you notice than in ootp movie they did cut Lily from "worst memory"? Such a big, big mistake.

sorry mystic, so does that mean that harrys patronus isa stag because...he loved james??

and that means that snape had always loved lily for his patronus was hers...? and this was what was so touching to DD?
sorry everyone i m so slow...

see theres another bit that led me to think that snape hadnt really grown to like harry. Snape had produced this patronus in response to DD asking Snape whether Snape had grown to care for harry. To which Snapes response was "For him?" then "expecto patronum" then the silver doe was produced. If this is indeed a symbol of his love for Lily then doesnt it just indicate that he did it all to serve her memory and therefore it is more for himself than for others. In a way, it still seems so selfish to me. He only did it because he was vested in it already, its similar to how he just wanted to save Lily because she was what he wanted...

I wasn't surprised by the Snape/Lily revelation. I'd been expecting it since reading 'Snape's Worst Memory' in OOTP. That memory had to be about Lily, cause Snape had been bullied before that and would have probably experienced worse things than being bullied by James and Sirius.
And I always wondered why Snape would constantly tell Harry how horrible his father was but never mention Lily, not even one little comment.
Snape being in love with Lily explains why Snape hated Harry so much. Harry was a constant reminder of the woman he'd loved and lost. As well as a reminder that Lily had married and had a child with the man he hated. He sees Harry as James, and probably as a mistake that Lily made.
I was surprised by the fact that Snape's love for Lily was why Dumbledore trusted him so much though...I was expecting another reason.
After reading the chapter 'The Silver Doe' I thought that the doe patronus had to be Snape's. As soon as the patronus came in I thought of Lily, I even thought that maybe it somehow was her, but then quickly realized that it couldn't be really. So then I thought of Snape.
I was kinda surprised to find out that they were friends before Hogwarts, I hadn't expected that. But it does make sense, it explains why they could form such a close friendship when they were in different houses and one was a muggleborn while the other was a potential Death Eater.
I loved it when Snape said 'look at me' to Harry...The last thing he saw before he died was Lily's eyes *sobs* lol
I wonder what would have happened if Lily had forgiven Snape for the mudblood thing...Or if Snape hadn't ended up in Slytherin. Maybe if he hadn't then he wouldn't have ended up friends with soon-to-be Death Eaters and become one himself. Maybe he wouldn't have become a Death Eater if him and Lily had stayed friends...

I always thought that Snape was good, and thought it probable that he had had unrequited love for Lily, but I had not expected it to go back to their childhood days! The Prince's Tale was one of my all time favorite chapters in Harry Potter, and it was absolutely heart-wrenchingly beautiful to read.

I think that Lily realized somewhere along the line that Snape had romantic feelings for her, but tried to ignore it because "Sev" was just her best friend, and she didn't want it complicated like that. The Prince's Tale was just one of the saddest and most beautiful things I've ever read. It was a beautifully written chapter, and gave everything I wanted to know about Snape and Lily answers.
There were so many parts I loved about it, let's see, "he flapped around after the girls looking ludicrously batlike, like his older self." "No, it doesn't make any difference." "You're not going to end up in Azkaban, you're too-" The spring in his step after the toe-rag comment, there were so many things that just made me go awww, and smile, and then she managed to write out the tragic parts with equal ability. Sleeping outside the common room, "Why should I be any different?" The scene after Lily's death where he "looked like a man who had lived a hundred years of misery." "We sort too soon." and my favorite and most gut-wrenching scene in the chapter, maybe in the book, maybe in the series, is of course
"After all this time?"
"Always,"

Snape never really had the choice of whether or not to go to Slytherin, well yes, he did, but he didn't know it. As someone said several pages back, he didn't have the showy bravery of Gryffindor, the wit of Ravenclaw, or the super friendly spirit of Hufflepuff. Therefore he was put in Slytherin almost by default. Not to mention he had probably been hearing about how great Slytherin was since he was born. He probably thought that if he got into Slytherin, it might make his mother proud of him, or at least pay some attention to him. I loved how JKR, through numerous examples, showed that not all Slytherins are evil.

Snape's bravery, although not of the flashy showy kind, was there, and he pretty much sacrificed his entire life for the woman he loved. It must have been terrible for him to look at Harry, the look-alike son of the man who had not only teased him for seven years, but had also married the only woman he had ever loved, and to also see her eyes in that face. The worst part is that she died because of information that he brought to Voldemort. It is the most tragic storyline in the series, but I don't think it could have ended any other way. Lily was happy with James, they loved each other, and Snape never would have been happy had he lived. I do think that he should have had a chance to prove his loyalty before he died, and that he shoud not have died in such a humiliating way. To me, it reminded me of Romeo and Juliet. Not so much of the story, but because it was the most tragic thing in the world, and yet it was (if this makes any sense) absolutely right. Snape redeemed himself, for Lily's son, and he was able to die in peace, knowing that the last thing he saw would be Lily's eyes.

There will probably be some people who will say that Snape was just out for himself because he just cared about Lily, but I do not think this is true. He was able to translate his unreciprocated feelings for her into trying to bring down the one she'd died to try and defeat. Her death could have made him just give up and sink farther into the Dark Arts doing whatever Voldemort told him to because it just didn't matter any more. Instead, her death made him devote himself even more fully to a cause that would ensure that she had not died in vain, even though it involved doing some of the hardest things he'd ever done. Snape chose what was right, not what was easy, and this makes him a true hero.

So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts? What do you think this friendship was based on? Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts? How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin? How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory? Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"? Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater? Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?

I wasn't all that shocked- at some point JKR mentions a laughing girl in Snape's memories and for some reason my mind went straight to Lily. Based on the book, I'm guessing that the friendship blossomed out of Snape observing Lily doing magic and her kindness/general personality. The fact that she seemed open to magic and her reaction to the child Severus is probably what first started it.

I think that because Lily knew Snape when he was younger she was able to overlook a lot, but it seems that while Lily chose to believe that Snape was a good person who'd fallen in with a bad crowd and liked him anyway, it seems that Snape was more interested in the Dark Arts than maintaining his friendship with Lily- there not enough there, imo, to suggest that any of their housemates had much of an opinion either way, but I'd extrapolate that based on her interactions with Petunia, that Lily wouldn't give a rat's arse anyway.

Snape's memory definitely gave a different spin on the relationship, and it did a nice job of showing the experience of being a teenager. Above all else, the memory makes it clearer than clear (as if you didn't get it from the first book) that the Sorting Hat is rarely wrong, but that it also bows to choice. Snape clearly wanted to be in Slytherin (whereas Sirius clearly didn't). It also becomes clear that Slytherin had a bit of an undeserved reputation for churning out bad wizards- Snape, had he chosen to, could have picked better companions within his own house and possibly turned out differently. We won't know. The idea that the Sorting Hat is used too early really resonated with me- at the age of 11 are you really ready to be told what kind of person you are going to be for the rest of your life?

As for being in different houses and being friends, there are examples of this in the book, I believe, so I'd have to say yes. As for Lily forgiving Snape, I don't think she ever really did- I think the "Mudblood" slur was probably the straw that broke the camel's back.

l
I wonder what would have happened if Lily had forgiven Snape for the mudblood thing...Or if Snape hadn't ended up in Slytherin. Maybe if he hadn't then he wouldn't have ended up friends with soon-to-be Death Eaters and become one himself. Maybe he wouldn't have become a Death Eater if him and Lily had stayed friends...

Snape wanted to be in Slytherin. It was his own personal choice to be a death eater.
Both Dumbledore and Rowling have told us this time and again. It is not who you are but who you choose to be.
Lily found a friend in Snape because he was intelligent and the first wizard she knew. They were neighbours. But the parting of ways was bound to happen. They belived in different things. They lived by different principles and looked up to different ideals.
They were different people and would have never been happy together.
Snape loved Lily for all his life but Lily did not return the feeling.
She didn't stop talking to him only because he called her a mudblood. She stopped associating with him because he had chosen his pride and ego over their friendship. Because he belived in the cause of Voldemort.
He never denied her accusition of wanting to be a death eater. She found the people who he chose as friends EVIL.
James was arrogant and some of his pranks were slightly mean. But he was not evil. He grew out of his pig headedness. With age and maturity he changed. He grew up to be a brave honest honoroble and good human being. He would have given his life to save those who belived in the cause. Snape at the end of the day was selfish.
Even Dumbledore treats him with slight contempt. He would have done anything for Lily; not for her husband and son. It is only when she dies that he decides to honor her sacrifice.
James risked his life to support Moony. Snape would have never done something like that.
Even at the end he looked down at uggles, werewolves and the like.

Jo was really clever. So many points were made that she would reveal something IMPERATIVE to the story, but distract us. Like in Snape's memoru. He was always teased by the marauders, why would that be his worst memory? - Because he called Lily a mudblood. But instead of making us go "ohhhh," she distracted us by having Harry so distraught that his father had been a complete annoying jerk. Throwing us off the scent, AGAIN.

Snape was the most complex and amazing character - throughout the whole series. I didn't actually start liking him until after reading Half Blood Prince for the second time, when it seemed so obvious that he was evil, that i knew he HAD to be good.

I wonder though... sorry if its been mentioned.. But both snape's and Lily's exceptional Potions skills..they must have helped each other along.. which is pretty sweet.. after all we all know snape is the potions master while lily was slughorn's favourite student and harry had supposedly "inherited" her skills.

Snape and Lily, in my opinion, is the main love story in the whole series and really what ties everything together. It's so real and painful, it's not soppy or easy, if you know what I mean. I think that's why I and many others are so affected by it because we can all maybe recognise the pain Snape must have felt and how it nearly killed him. Snape says it himself, that he wishes he were dead. He joined DD at first only to protect Lily but as time goes on we know it becomes more than this, he becomes truly good, because it is his actions and choices we have to look at not just how he treats Harry and Neville and some students. Yes, he's bitter and sarcastic and he can only blame himself for remaining this way, but he kind of had to, to keep cover. In the Pensieve we see a lonely, ironic, loyal and much more human Snape and I only wish we could have seen this sooner, before he died. It was awfully sad, I cried for about an hour. I can't see myself being able to read Snape stuff in the other books for a long time now.

He did apologize to Lily. It's in his memories.

Lily refused to accept Severus' apology. In that moment, he knew he had lost her forever, and from that moment on all he cared about was the quest to regain what he knew he could never have.

That is epic, in the true sense of the word.

Very well said. Snape has always been a little hypocritical in this regard, that he considered others who showed the emotion of love as fools and yet lead his entire life trying to protect the son of his love. :err:

He followed his own advice, then. He did not show his emotion at all, except to one person, Dumbledore. And he made Dumbledore promise never to tell anyone.

I was right! Woo! *bounces*
I just knew she would let Harry know the truth about Snape when he was on he was nearing death. Needless to say, I am happy with the outcome. Even though Snape was my favorite character and I wish he had lived... but he didn't want anyone to know his secret and we have to respect that, which is why we didn't find out until the end. And when he asked Harry to look at him! It was like he was verifying w/Lily that he did the right thing!

Lily and Snape were a rare friendship that could have united Gryffindor and Slytherin once again.

Author of the Mugglenet ship: Severus Snape In Love?

I love the Prince's Tale chapter. Probably the best part of the book. I never like Snape that much as a character, nor I paid much attention to the whole Snape love Lily thing. But this is a beautifully written chapter, and you can feel how longing Snape was for someone who saw something good in himself, because that's something that even he himself can't see. My heart break for Snape, after that.

I think the thing in the PoA movie that gave Rowling goosebumps was the added scene with Lupin on the bridge, in which Lupin talks about Lily's ability to see good in people. :)

This was my one big theory I was right on, so at least I got one right! After Snape's Worst Memory, I knew there was something between Lily and Snape, particularly since Lily gave him such an odd look at being called a mudblood. And when we found out Snape was a half blood who grew up in the muggle world, it totally made sense that they must have had a relationship before they came to Hogwarts (it would have been much more difficult for them to develop one at school, after being sorted into different houses).

But even anticipating where the story was going, I was still impressed with how JKR wrote their releationship - it was quite poignant, moreso than I expected it to be. And Snape's last words were heartbreaking.

I think Snape's hatred towards Harry was partially because of what Harry represented to him - James, his most hated rival, and also Lily's death - but it was probably also necessary from a practical standpoint. Had Snape ever gotten close to Harry, Voldemort almost certainly would have detected it at some point and found Snape out. The distance was necessary.

Really, that's another aspect of the tragedy - that Snape was unable to ever really see Lily in Harry until the moment of his death. It was the only time he could allow himself to do it.

sorry mystic, so does that mean that harrys patronus isa stag because...he loved james??

and that means that snape had always loved lily for his patronus was hers...? and this was what was so touching to DD?
sorry everyone i m so slow...

see theres another bit that led me to think that snape hadnt really grown to like harry. Snape had produced this patronus in response to DD asking Snape whether Snape had grown to care for harry. To which Snapes response was "For him?" then "expecto patronum" then the silver doe was produced. If this is indeed a symbol of his love for Lily then doesnt it just indicate that he did it all to serve her memory and therefore it is more for himself than for others. In a way, it still seems so selfish to me. He only did it because he was vested in it already, its similar to how he just wanted to save Lily because she was what he wanted...

It is selfish. I mentioned it in my next post as well.
Snape protected Harry to honor Lily's sacrifice; because he loved her.
Harry's patronus is a stag because his father gives him strength and has ofetn brought out the best in him.

I do like that Snape's real reason for his hatred of the meory was that he called Lily a mudblood.

I wonder though... sorry if its been mentioned.. But both snape's and Lily's exceptional Potions skills..they must have helped each other along.. which is pretty sweet.. after all we all know snape is the potions master while lily was slughorn's favourite student and harry had supposedly "inherited" her skills.

oooh i love that idea!! i can see it already! hehe :love:

omg does ne1 else here wish that a snape and lily relationship cud have just eventuated?!

its funny tho...i wonder if it werent for lily do u guys reckon snape would still hate mudbloods (if he ever did - which i reckon is probable...) as much? i just cant understand y if he loved and respected her so much that he would still have ventured into the dark arts. Like imagine if they had hooked up...i cant see that she would ever approve...but would he have changed?

I wonder though... sorry if its been mentioned.. But both snape's and Lily's exceptional Potions skills..

Yeah, it looks like Snape wrote the notebook from the HBP specifically for Lily. Remember that scene where Harry follows the notebook's direction to "shove a bezoar" down their throats and Slughorn says something about him being just like his mom?

I have to say, it's a lot of fun now going back and seeing all the various puzzle pieces that were there pointing to the relationship.

I was only mildly surprised by the revelation that Snape had been in love with Lily. What really surprised me, though, was the fact that they had been childhood friends. I thought that if Snape's love for Lily would manifest somewhere it would be at Hogwarts. I guess it was stupid of me to assume that just because Lily was Muggle-born she wouldn't have had any contact with any other magical people before she went to school.

Snape didn't lose Lily the moment he called her a Mudblood, he lost her the moment he decided to be in Slytherin which consequently led to his choice to become a Death Eater. As so many others pointed out, JKR has made the point over and over again that it is the choices we make that decide who we are and who we become, and nothing else. Snape, for claiming to love Lily so much and who would apparently sacrifice anything for her, could not make the biggest sacrifice of all by trying to be sorted into Gryffindor instead of Slytherin. He lost her before he really even had a chance to have her.

Also... am I the only one who thought the whole Snape spying on Lily and Petunia thing was really creepy? He even said that he had been watching Lily for a while. CREEP ALERT!

Ok, alright, I was totally and completely wrong about Snape!! I'm eating my words right now. I was so convinced that this idea was way over thinking it, I must admit, I loved the telling of the story of Snape and Lilly's friendship, to everyone who predicted this, you are good!

I really really wonder if Lily had a feeling that Snape fancied her. I hope somebody asks JKR that question!

I really hope so too....Jo comes to the US this October so we might know then. I have an inkling she did but didn't want to go beyond friends or wanted him to say something first.

As most here, I was truly, truly moved by "The Prince's Tale." It is one of the three chapters I reread after finishing the entire book. Poingnant and sad . . . but in retrospect, it makes such sense. Snape's maliciousness to Harry over the entire series--the resentfulness towards and jealousy of James that he cannot control, despite being Dumbledore's man through and through. If anything, one of the criticisms I've had of the novels is that no teacher would be allowed to be as nasty to a student as Snape has been to Harry, but I think it makes Snape all the more human.

I was convinced we would learn that Snape was helping Lily in Potions though.

Okay, did anyone else tear up (or weep copiously) over the silver doe?

Okay, did anyone else tear up (or weep copiously) over the eyes?

Also... am I the only one who thought the whole Snape spying on Lily and Petunia thing was really creepy? He even said that he had been watching Lily for a while. CREEP ALERT!

agah, that was creepy! no wonder Tunia creeped out. but anyway, I just loved his devotion to her.
but yes, he lost her the moment he decided to go to Slytherin, but still, I can't understand one thing. If he was so devoted to her that he devoted his life to guarding Harry later, why didn't he choose to go to Slytherin?

I was only mildly surprised by the revelation that Snape had been in love with Lily. What really surprised me, though, was the fact that they had been childhood friends. I thought that if Snape's love for Lily would manifest somewhere it would be at Hogwarts. I guess it was stupid of me to assume that just because Lily was Muggle-born she wouldn't have had any contact with any other magical people before she went to school.

Snape didn't lose Lily the moment he called her a Mudblood, he lost her the moment he decided to be in Slytherin which consequently led to his choice to become a Death Eater. As so many others pointed out, JKR has made the point over and over again that it is the choices we make that decide who we are and who we become, and nothing else. Snape, for claiming to love Lily so much and who would apparently sacrifice anything for her, could not make the biggest sacrifice of all by trying to be sorted into Gryffindor instead of Slytherin. He lost her before he really even had a chance to have her.

Also... am I the only one who thought the whole Snape spying on Lily and Petunia thing was really creepy? He even said that he had been watching Lily for a while. CREEP ALERT!

The thing is Snape had the idea, probably from his mother, that Slytherin was the way to go, he wanted Lily to be in it but she wasn't. I'm not sure what he was thinking during the Sorting but I don't think many children realized that you can make a suggestion to the Sorting Hat. I don't think he lost her when he was put in Syltherin I think it was when he called her Mudblood and kept the same friends. I mean that was the FINAL straw. She was through. She helps him when no one else does (no Syltherins at all) and he does that. Imagining your bestfriend call you something so insulting in front of tons of people right when you save that person.

I didn't find the spying creepy, well look what he became later anyway. I think he was just lonely, I think he saw Lily as a warm-hearted person and would maybe accept him even though he wore a blouse and plus she did magic which he totally marked himself equal with her, and she did. They had to have had things in common and chemistry to stay friends for so long. Though yes...sometimes he was on the brink of stalker.

I thought even before DH that Snape had loved Lily. JK was once asked if Snape had ever been 'in love' and she said yes, but didn't elaborate. And in Snape's Worst Memory, wouldn't he have been taunted and humiliated by the Marauders many other times? So there must be something different about that, so maybe he thought that he had lost Lily when he called her 'Mudblood'. I had a hunch there was something between them. But I never realized that they could have had a friendship before Hogwarts, etc. His last words were 'Look at me' so he could see Lily's eyes right before he died, and when I found out why he said that, I cried!

I was thinking that Snape and Lilly had some kind of relashonship, but never thought that they had been friends before coming to Hogwart's. I think that after the "Mudblood " incident, Lily did forgive Snape. They had been friends for years, despite Snape's attraction to the dark arts, and I think that Lily was willing to forgive because she knew that he did care for her, regardless of anything else. At least, I'm hoping she forgave him. As for whether the friendship/love would have worked out better if he had been in another house, it probably would have. How many Death Eaters do you see coming out of Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, or Ravenclaw? He was probably attracted to the Dark Arts because he wanted to be accepted, part of something. He was a loner, and to be welcomed by the Slytherins, he decided to conform to their Dark Arts ideas.

Okay, did anyone else tear up (or weep copiously) over the silver doe?

Okay, did anyone else tear up (or weep copiously) over the eyes?

Weep copiously is an under-statement, I felt like someone close to me had died, I couldn't understand why I had such a strong reaction to this. I wish there were more memories, I want a whole book on Lily and Snape! I wonder what other contact there was between them both?

This was one of the best bits of the book, I think. It is a bit creepy how he watches her, especially as it's described as 'greedily', but when you consider that he had nobody else in his life, and his unhappy relationship with his parents, you kind of see that even admiring someone from afar is better than having nothing at all.
I agree that if he had really loved her he would have asked the hat to be sorted into Gryf. I think he probably realised (and regreted this) later in life; when DD says to him something like, 'perhaps we sort kids too early'. After all, at 11 years old, how did he know that what he was feeling was love? More stronger for him was probably his desire to be in Slyth, perhaps making his mum happy, or perhaps to learn ways in which to get even with his dad.
I found I didn't really like Lily here; she seemed to be far too judgmental and leaps to conclusions. OK, so he called her a mudblood. But he was being tortured at the time, and in these situations often the person who tries to do something about it is the person you want to lash out at. That was a horrible thing for him to have had Lily witness; if she didnt realise what was going on in his mind - and that he regreted it - then she wasn't as good a friend as she could have been. (And much less smart than Hermy!)
Also, it seems to me that she's far more disaproving of the Slyths he hangs around with than she is of the people in her own house. As far as I'm concerned, bullies at school are the lowest form of scum; it doesn't matter if they're doing it by humiliating their victims and asserting their own superiority, or by use of the Cruciatus curse. I think James and Sirius were just as bad as those Slyths that Lily was so quick to criticise.

I was only mildly surprised by the revelation that Snape had been in love with Lily. What really surprised me, though, was the fact that they had been childhood friends. I thought that if Snape's love for Lily would manifest somewhere it would be at Hogwarts. I guess it was stupid of me to assume that just because Lily was Muggle-born she wouldn't have had any contact with any other magical people before she went to school.
!

I was misled by the Potions stuff in HBP into thinking they'd become friends at a later age, too. I'm kicking myself now - the red haired little girl laughing that Harry sees whe he breaks into Snape's mind in OotP was an anvil-sized hint, as several of my friends tried to tell me.

I think I guessed in DH when Harry and Hermione are reading about the villages in England with large wizard populations. When it mentioned one in Yorkshire, I immediately thought of Spinner's End

Snape didn't lose Lily the moment he called her a Mudblood, he lost her the moment he decided to be in Slytherin which consequently led to his choice to become a Death Eater. As so many others pointed out, JKR has made the point over and over again that it is the choices we make that decide who we are and who we become, and nothing else. Snape, for claiming to love Lily so much and who would apparently sacrifice anything for her, could not make the biggest sacrifice of all by trying to be sorted into Gryffindor instead of Slytherin. He lost her before he really even had a chance to have her.

I think that's a bit harsh. She remained friends with him for five years after the sorting. He chose Slytherin, presumably on the recommendation of his mother, which is at least as good a reason as why Harry chose Gryffindor (purely to try to avoid Malfoy). I don't buy the Gryffindor=good choice, Slytherin=bad chocie argument

Also... am I the only one who thought the whole Snape spying on Lily and Petunia thing was really creepy? He even said that he had been watching Lily for a while. CREEP ALERT

No, I don't think that. If he'd been 33, maybe, but he was 9! And lonely! And deperate to meet others of his kind, who wouldn't laugh at him like muggle children did!

I've always thought that if Snape loved Lily then they must have known each other quite well, that's why I've been arguing they were friends for months. If his "love" for her had been based purely on having glimpsed her in the Hogwarts corridors, that would be creepy and pervy.

Belgarath2, re Lily being judgemental, isn't the point not that she didn't forgive him for calling her Mudblood when he was under pressure, but that she couldn't forgive him for calling everybody else of muggle parentage "mudblood"?

We know he didn't. He had Neville, Ginny, and Luna dead to rights for stealing from his office. Instead of letting the Carrows take care of it, or doing something vile himself, he sent them to the Forest with Hagrid, which Harry at the time attributed to stupidity. I don't believe that for a second. I believe this example is meant to illustrate that he did exactly as he said he would in the memories - he used his position to try and lessen what he could not prevent. Getting himself killed would not help the students, and would doom the hope of defeating Voldemort.

I agree with you completely, even if I was not able to type it properly.:lol:

As for trying to be sorted into Gryffindore, I agree on the point that I do not think students realized that the choices you make matter right from the start and that they could influence where they were sorted to. Snape's entire line had been in Slytherin, so it was natural that is where he would end up. Lily on the other hand was a clean slate, no house history in her family.

I don't think he "lost" her at sorting. Lily was not of the character to define people by their house. The fact that she remained friends with Snape was a testiment to that fact. I honestly just don't think she ever really thought of Snape like that. I think to her it was more of the Harry-Hermione relationship, though not as strong. Somehow I think deep down Snape knew that and he was content just to be around her. He loved her enough that it lasted until he died even though they had most likely not spoken since that night at Hogwarts when he tried so hard to apologize to her. If he could have just remained her friend that would have been something for him. (I know that's not coming out right.)

As for Lily, the girl who saw the good in people no matter what, I think of all people, Snape calling her a Mudblood was devistating. It was like Petunia all over again. He was there when Petunia didn't understand her and he was her connection to a world she had had no idea was there, much less that she was a member of. She trusted him and to some extent loved him too. I think he broke her heart that day like her sister had when she called Lily a freak.:relax:

Snape didn't lose Lily the moment he called her a Mudblood, he lost her the moment he decided to be in Slytherin which consequently led to his choice to become a Death Eater. As so many others pointed out, JKR has made the point over and over again that it is the choices we make that decide who we are and who we become, and nothing else. Snape, for claiming to love Lily so much and who would apparently sacrifice anything for her, could not make the biggest sacrifice of all by trying to be sorted into Gryffindor instead of Slytherin. He lost her before he really even had a chance to have her.Although I agree that their friendship was likely doomed after Sev was sorted into Slytherin and Lily into Gryffindor, I can't believe that being sorted into Slytherin was a bad choice that Sev made and should have known to avoid. Sev wanted to be in Slytherin because he wanted to choose "brainy" over "brawny," as he told Lily the day of the Sorting. At 11-years-old, what would Sev really know about how being placed in Slytherin would affect the rest of his life?

Also, it was 10 years later that Sev loved Lily so much that he was willing to do "anything" for her, though clearly he liked her very much as a child. Putting down Sev's house placement as him not being willing to make a sacrifice for her, though, is ridiculous, I think. He was 11-years-old! I very much doubt he was thinking in terms of "sacrifice." Certainly, his sacrifices later in life were much more significant and profound than choosing to be in Gryffindor would have been.
Also... am I the only one who thought the whole Snape spying on Lily and Petunia thing was really creepy? He even said that he had been watching Lily for a while. CREEP ALERT!I don't see how it can be creepy in the way you imply, since they were such young children. Sev obviously longed for a playmate, which is only natural considering his apparent isolation and neglect. I don't see anything wrong with it. Harry has compassion for Sev when he sees his disappointment at how the first encounter with Lily, carefully planned, had gone all wrong. So do I.

As for Lily, the girl who saw the good in people no matter what, I think of all people, Snape calling her a Mudblood was devistating. It was like Petunia all over again. He was there when Petunia didn't understand her and he was her connection to a world she had had no idea was there, much less that she was a member of. She trusted him and to some extent loved him too. I think he broke her heart that day like her sister had when she called Lily a freak.:relax:


I think thats why it was so hard for her to forgive him too....and I'm sure they loved each other. They just loved each other in different ways.

I loved how this surfaced.
Is this the relationship JKR talked about a long time ago when she said something like
'there is one relationship that is the centre of everything'
i think it is!

"The heart of it all", were her exact words. And yes, she must have meant Snape's love for Lily. One thing that Snape did because of his love was to ask Voldemort to spare her. He did not, but I presume this is why he gave her the chance to stand aside, without which her sacrifice could not have protected Harry (the way James's death did not, because he had no choice).

i have read that chapter over & over & cried each time:upset:

when Dumbledore asked him "after all this time" & he said "always " i was in floods :upset:

totally gutted that Severus died:upset::upset::upset:

"The heart of it all", were her exact words. And yes, she must have meant Snape's love for Lily. One thing that Snape did because of his love was to ask Voldemort to spare her. He did not, but I presume this is why he gave her the chance to stand aside, without which her sacrifice could not have protected Harry (the way James's death did not, because he had no choice).
Yes, that's what I believe as well. Snape's love for Lily is the crux of the series. If he had not continued to love her, Harry could never have been the Chosen One and Voldemort could not have been defeated. Snape's love was just as important to Voldemort's downfall as Harry's, since it was Snape who set everything in motion.

I thought the chapter of Snape's memories was on of the best in the whole series. SO heart-breaking. To understand why Snape hated Harry so much, because he was the son that could have been his, and because he was so guilty that he accidently sent Lily to her grave. I actually cried it was so sad.


Me too! It etched the deepest impression into me..Its the most wonderful thing to know that Snape's actually a person who could sacrifice for love.. wonderful really..Thumbs up for J.K..

Yes, that's what I believe as well. Snape's love for Lily is the crux of the series. If he had not continued to love her, Harry could never have been the Chosen One and Voldemort could not have been defeated. Snape's love was just as important to Voldemort's downfall as Harry's, since it was Snape who set everything in motion.

Yeah, this is an interesting point. In fact, Snape contributed to Voldemort's downfall in so many ways.

I don't know.. Remembering that Voldemort did give Lily the choice makes me feel.. somehow touched. I must be out of my mind. Gah.

This is regarding whether Snape lost Lily after calling her Mudblood. I don't think so. The apology Snape gave must have been before the fith year ended. According to hp-lexicon master timeline, Sirius played his "joke" on Snape AFTER the OWL incident. We hear Lily and Severus talking about it in the memories. Lily says to him something like 'I heard that James Potter saved you' etc etc. So they were talking to each other AFTER the OWL incident. Snape and Lily were living in the same neighborhood, so it seems entirely possible that he convinced her about his feeling sorry over the summer.

Also, as someone mentioned earlier, Snape and Lily were both NEWT students of Potions. Best students too. People already suspect that they worked together. I do too. (Of course, this isn't canon.) So I DO believe that Lily forgave Snape after the OWL incident.

Before the book, I thought that Snape had been close to Lily, but it was nice to see it down on paper.
I liked that the pair met before Hogwarts, as it was something I never would have imagined.
I loved The Princes Tale, as it answered quite a few of the questions that I had about Snape, and his friendship with Dumbledore as well as Lily.

Jo

Yes, that's what I believe as well. Snape's love for Lily is the crux of the series. If he had not continued to love her, Harry could never have been the Chosen One and Voldemort could not have been defeated. Snape's love was just as important to Voldemort's downfall as Harry's, since it was Snape who set everything in motion.

yes, that's true. And the book has also mentioned that both of Snape and Lily's patronus is a doe. It does its best to help Harry. And obviously, love is the whole point.

Delighted to be here discussing this enchanting, puzzling, thought-provoking book.

Oooh, hell, this is sad - but here is my question:

When Snape lay dying, with Harry beside him, he gave out his memory.

He said "Look at me". Was that -- look at my memories, look at my life, look at me, look at who I am, look at all of my life, how I have been Dumbledore's man, at his side, all this time.

Or was it "Look at me" so that I can see Lily's eyes once more before I die?
I think it was so he could see her eyes before he died. As you can tell from my username, I am a huge fan of this plotline!

This is regarding whether Snape lost Lily after calling her Mudblood. I don't think so. The apology Snape gave must have been before the fith year ended. According to hp-lexicon master timeline, Sirius played his "joke" on Snape AFTER the OWL incident. We hear Lily and Severus talking about it in the memories. Lily says to him something like 'I heard that James Potter saved you' etc etc. So they were talking to each other AFTER the OWL incident. Snape and Lily were living in the same neighborhood, so it seems entirely possible that he convinced her about his feeling sorry over the summer.

Also, as someone mentioned earlier, Snape and Lily were both NEWT students of Potions. Best students too. People already suspect that they worked together. I do too. (Of course, this isn't canon.) So I DO believe that Lily forgave Snape after the OWL incident.I also find it difficult to believe that they never spoke after that confrontation, given the liklihood that they were both in NEWT Potions together. However, the Lexicon's timeline will have to be corrected. Prior to DH, most people believed that the "prank" occurred after SWM, but the memories Harry sees in the Pensieve are all in chronological order. I recently spoke to Lexicon Steve (not about that) and, as of Sunday, the Lexicon had not included anything from DH into the site, except for the chapter titles. It's a lot of work to get everything incorporated into the Lexicon and will take a long time - especially given the wealth of information in DH! :)

James risked his life to support Moony. Snape would have never done something like that.
Even at the end he looked down at uggles, werewolves and the like.

I feel compelled to point out that you are factually wrong on both these points. In one of the memories Harry sees, Snape tries to save the life of Moony (when he accidentally cuts of George's ear), even though he is in a Death Eater raid and if any of them had figure out what he did...you can bet his life would have been in danger.

And he refused to let Phineas Nigellus use the word "Mudblood" of Hermione, in another memory. Snape's copntinuing love for Lily was the thing that helped to transform him into someone that was truly worthy of the credit Harry gave him at the end, by naming his son after him and calling him "the bravest man I ever knew".

before i read this book, i knew Snape liked lily after sensing it in the previous books, i thought it was smart of JK to reinforce his loneliness and how that played a part in him turning into a death eater, but also how it helped him escape and die a noble man....i love how Harry named his son after to great headmasters, i thought it was sweet, not cheesey or corny!!!

Near the beginning of the book, Harry looked into the broken shard of Sirius' old mirror, and saw his eyes looking back at him. Since Rowling had previously said that Harry's eyes looking like Lily's eyes was important, I was convinced that Lily was still alive! It was a pretty good shock that Snape was in love with her though. How did Snape find where Harry and Hermione were hidden in the forest?

I didn't understand the "worst memory" until now. It was losing Lily that day not the childhood fighting. Boy are the OOTP producers sorry they just glossed over the memory in the movie. I thought they made a mistake in how they portrayed it especially in leaving Lily out but now I see that the mistake was even more monumental!

I like the idea of them knowing each other before school and having a real friendship. It made Snape a little more human, more vulnerable. It gave him the heart we hadn't seen in any of the other books. I didn't want to believe that Snape was pure evil so I was glad that all the proSnape editorial writers got it right.

I was misled by the Potions stuff in HBP into thinking they'd become friends at a later age, too. I'm kicking myself now - the red haired little girl laughing that Harry sees whe he breaks into Snape's mind in OotP was an anvil-sized hint, as several of my friends tried to tell me.

Her hair color was not mentioned. And the age description was vague enough that the incident could have been at Hogwarts (say, during first year flying lessons).

I don't buy the Gryffindor=good choice, Slytherin=bad chocie argument

Neither do I, especially as he states a reason for his preference that has nothing to do with Dark Arts or pure blood. (He'd rather be brainy than brawny.)

No, I don't think that. If he'd been 33, maybe, but he was 9! And lonely! And deperate to meet others of his kind, who wouldn't laugh at him like muggle children did!

What's a kid with no friends supposed to do at a playground? Watching the other kids seems like a rather reasonable choice.

Belgarath2, re Lily being judgemental, isn't the point not that she didn't forgive him for calling her Mudblood when he was under pressure, but that she couldn't forgive him for calling everybody else of muggle parentage "mudblood"?

I agree with this, especially as the series of memories shows it has been an ongoing problem. Two memories earlier, Harry sees Snape not listening when Lily tries to tell him about why she thinks one of his 'friends' is evil. The Worst Memory WAS the final breaking point, but the way the memories are shown, it could have been another incident that did it, if Lily had let it go. There was a pattern of behavior there that she did not approve of, and had tried to make her feelings known.

So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts? I really liked it, i had had an inkling that Snape was in love with her, but it never crossed my mind that they would have been best mates, it was a really nice idea.

What do you think this friendship was based on? Well i think he was probably in love with her from the word go and spent a lot of time watching her, pre planned first meeting and all. His home life seems to of been pretty grim, and he seems to have recognised that she was magically very powerfull and been drawn to that. On her part, I guess she was obviously very caring and he seemed so lost, i bet the idea of magic which he introduced to her was fascinating for her and also her sister looked down on her abilities whereas he praised her for them.


Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts? Because they had been friends for years and I think that she certainly loved him... whatever you call him, he is extremely brave and I think she would have seen that in him, they obviously had stuff in common as well because they were both extremely talented at potions which doesnt seem to usually be a very popular subject

How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin? Probably not very well, each lot as bad as the other infact. Think Snape probably got the worst of it, I don;t think that James would have gone as far as taunting Lily about it, but i imaging the Slytherine's would have been way harsh to Snape, especially since Lily was muggle-born

How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory? I think that that blink that Lily gives after Snape insults her takes on a whole lot of significance, and now i think she was really hurt by it, I also think that it explains why she says 'I would wash your pance Snivellus', because that kind of taunt seems a bit beneath her unless she was acting out of hurt. Most of all I'm just impressed that it was this memory that was his worst, not the one where Lily says that she doesnt want to be friends with him anymore as that suggests that he regrets his actions, not just the consequences of them. Very noble.

Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"? i don't really know... I don't know if they were friends after that, I bet he retreated further into the Slytherine gang... if she were able to see everything that has happened since her death then yes, I would say that she forgave him

Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater? yes, absolutely.

Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?YES!!!!!!! completely, I think his whole life would have been different, thats why i think that it is awful and painful and devasting when in the memory Dumbledore says 'maybe we sort to soon' and Snape looks stricken. Its that awful moment when he walks past the Gryfiindor table and the Marauders who are all sat with kids their own age and doing kiddish things (like lily turning her back on Sirius with her arms folded) and he walks across to the Slyterine table where Lucius Malfoy is there and much older and already a prefect and pats him on the back...heartbreaking.

I didn't understand the "worst memory" until now. It was losing Lily that day not the childhood fighting. Boy are the OOTP producers sorry they just glossed over the memory in the movie. I thought they made a mistake in how they portrayed it especially in leaving Lily out but now I see that the mistake was even more monumental!They'll make up for it in HBP with the skill of potions making, keep comparing Lily's skill with Snapes.

I like the idea of them knowing each other before school and having a real friendship. It made Snape a little more human, more vulnerable. It gave him the heart we hadn't seen in any of the other books. I didn't want to believe that Snape was pure evil so I was glad that all the proSnape editorial writers got it right.Yes, yes, yes. And that Dumbledore said he was hiding the 'best of Snape'

Hey! I just realised that "the boy" that Petunia was talking about, when Harry and Dudley came back from the Dementors, that told Lily about them was Severus!

I always guessed it was James, but wondered how Petunia could have seen them talking ... of course! Ack, foreshadowing! XD

Let me start by saying that I have not yet read this entire thread. I wanted to answer the questions in the first post first. Also, I'm so glad that Mugglenet's boards are back, I personally found some of the other HP:DH boards tiresome. So many posters asking about questions that I felt were clearly answered in the book. (i.e., what was the significance of Harry having Lily's eyes?, I kid you not!)


Let me be the first member of the Admitting-I-Could-Be-Wrong Club to admit how VERY WRONG I was. I was open to the idea of Snape and Lily having been friends but I wasn't in love with the idea on love on his part or with a pre-Hogwarts friendship. But that said, JKR clearly was.

I was firmly in the Snape loved Lily camp. It just fit. However, I did not imagine a pre-Hogwarts relationship or how his love for her had come about. And even having a feeling that Snape loved Lily, of course I wasn't sure. (though I was hoping that the Doe was his patronus, I was on the edge about it!) After finding out the way we did, it was so beautiful and tragic and terrible.

So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts?

I think this made his love for her more believable. He fell in love with her when they were both so young, away from Hogwarts... and Lily seemed so charming and confident. It's not hard to see how Snape could have fallen in love with her (at age 8 or so... whenever that first memory was.)

What do you think this friendship was based on?

He recognized her as a witch, and he thought she was beautiful. No doubt the times he ran into her (even with Petunia) were a cherished part of his troubled and tortured childhood. The one bright spot in his day (or week). I mean....we saw that the Snape household was not a happy one for him.

Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts?

By the time they got to Hogwarts they were already good friends. Severus had introduced her to the wizarding world. It is not hard to imagine that his wonderful stories, especially when she saw them all come true (the letter from Hogwarts, Diagon Alley, the fact that she really could do magic)... it's not hard to imagine that these early memories with Severus could go a long way toward her affection for him, despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts... but it would not hold out forever. I think it was this attraction more than his insult that turned her away from him.

How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin?

She was still a pretty popular girl, I bet. Lily was kind to a lot of people. She might have been talked about a bit for her friendship with Severus, but I'm sure she did not suffer the ridicule that Harry did for all of *his* outcast friends.

How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory?

I always thought that it was Snape's insult to Lily that was the key thing in the scene. From everything else we have heard about Snape and James' school days, the spiffs between them were quite common.

Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"?


No. But it wasn't just that, it was that he really had bought into the whole idea of "pure blood" vs. everyone else.

Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater?

Maybe, probably.. yes.

Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?


Well... it's hard to imagine Snape in Griffyndor, even though in the end he showed that he lived at least half his life as brave as anyone could. He still did it in a Slytherin way. (by any means necessary). And really hard to imagine Lily in Slytherin. Still...if they were in the same house, it's possible that Snape never would have been a Death Eater.


And does anyone else think that still... gee... James *was* such an *** in school. Sure he might have been charming, but he was not really someone to be proud of (it's hard to imagine him being all grown up as we never get to see that he did.) Harry definitely had more of Lily's personality than James'. (Would James have freed Dobby? Would James have been kind to Kreacher? Or the goblin?)


Anyway, bravo Jo! I wish that Harry had had a chance to speak with Snape (in King's Cross or via portrait) after he knew the truth, but... ah well.

Originally Posted by ginger1 View Post
Delighted to be here discussing this enchanting, puzzling, thought-provoking book.

Oooh, hell, this is sad - but here is my question:

When Snape lay dying, with Harry beside him, he gave out his memory.

He said "Look at me". Was that -- look at my memories, look at my life, look at me, look at who I am, look at all of my life, how I have been Dumbledore's man, at his side, all this time.

Or was it "Look at me" so that I can see Lily's eyes once more before I die?I think it was so he could see her eyes before he died. As you can tell from my username, I am a huge fan of this plotline!

I don't see why it can't be both. Snape gave Harry his memories to help him move forward- or "come back" actually as it would turn out and confess. In return Harry gave Snape a single final moment of pure unfiltered eye contact and peace to he could finally let go.

Neither of them knew the power of that act at the time but they both found redemption in it.

This is regarding whether Snape lost Lily after calling her Mudblood. I don't think so. The apology Snape gave must have been before the fith year ended. According to hp-lexicon master timeline, Sirius played his "joke" on Snape AFTER the OWL incident.

The Lexicon is mistaken, and will doubtless revise itself accordingly based on Book 7 canon. The 'prank' occured in Year 5, before the Worst Memory, as seen by Harry in "The Prince's Tale".

I knew that Severus and Lily had a relationship more of a friendship really, I never really thought he was in love with her, but I'am so happy for him because through all of his pain he had love.

I keep thinking about all the times Harry saw Snape demanded eye contact and was "boring" into his eyes. Now I really wonder was Snape doing legilimency or was he just seeing Lily as much as he could to keep himself in check. And how many times did Harry meet Snape's eye- as much as he could stand it up until OOP.

The Occlumency sessions have a whole new meaning now don't they? Snape survived by Occlumency and denying his feelings just to get through his life as A spy and "witnessing" all those thing he had to see. Snape knew that Voldemort was going to make Harry's life hell in so many ways and Harry was going to be forced to Witness horrible things as well. Snape was trying to teach Harry block his mind just to survive- but Severus had to do it by looking straight into the eyes that caused him the most remorse.

No wonder he was not thrilled about teaching Harry Occlumency and why it was fiasco!

I think that Snape did effectively lose Lily after the "mudblood" incident. They may have taken NEWT potions together, but they didn't have to sit next to each other. And even if they *did* sit next to each other and work closely together, I'm sure it was very cordial. The whole nature of their relationship changed after that day. And Snape regretted it for the rest of his life.

I only hope that Lily was able to truly forgive him in the "afterlife."

I always enjoyed the speculation that Snape liked Lily. The hatred he had for James had to be more than just because of opposite houses. I am glad Dumbledore showed mercey for Severus and helped him, and tried to protect the woman he loved, even though she was already married, Snape still loved her. The fact that this started from aroud age 10 was intriguing. I never thoguth they grew up in the same area, or knew eachother before Hogwarts. If Snape was sorted into Gryffindor, he would of had Lily as his wife, been in the Order of the Phoenix, and not been so negatively affeted by his peers.

The love Snape had for Lily was such a tragic love, knowing that it would never be requented yet he loved her forever. He watched her, befriended her, gained her trust, and all she would ever see in him is friendship. Most people would move on yet he never lost his feelings for her, even after she made it clear that she wanted nothing to do with her. When the doe patronus showed up in the forest I knew where the book was going. But, when you think of all the sacrifice Snape made in order to keep her son safe...wow.

This is regarding whether Snape lost Lily after calling her Mudblood. I don't think so. The apology Snape gave must have been before the fith year ended. According to hp-lexicon master timeline, Sirius played his "joke" on Snape AFTER the OWL incident. We hear Lily and Severus talking about it in the memories. Lily says to him something like 'I heard that James Potter saved you' etc etc. So they were talking to each other AFTER the OWL incident. Snape and Lily were living in the same neighborhood, so it seems entirely possible that he convinced her about his feeling sorry over the summer.

Also, as someone mentioned earlier, Snape and Lily were both NEWT students of Potions. Best students too. People already suspect that they worked together. I do too. (Of course, this isn't canon.) So I DO believe that Lily forgave Snape after the OWL incident.

I wondered about this too. the first being This happened in roughly their 5th year. Lily started dating James in their 7th. In one of the books (HBP I think, but don't quote me) Lupin notes that they wouldn't hex Snape in front of her. To me, it seems that even though they may have had a parting of ways, she still cared. And still stood up for him, even though she didn't agree with his choices. What I enjoyed most about that relationship was that their friendship started before school. Probably because my kids now are of comparable ages to when they met. He told her what she was (given that she was muggle-born, there had to be some anxiety) and guided her. In turn she stood up for him. It actually reminded me of a quote in a Stephen King novella ("The Body" I think) where the narrator observes that the friends you have at 12 are the ones you remember or have for the rest of your life...obviously this is paraphrased. What I loved about that chapter was that Harry couldn't argue or disbelieve what he saw, and Snape gave Harry something he always wanted-his mother.

*Sigh* Poor, poor Severus... even in the afterlife, Lily would still be with James, and never return his feelings. :upset:

I was SOOO happy when this came true. After years of ridicule from members who thought it could never happen. I love how they confirmed they were best friends, and that Snape loved Lily. My favorite scene was when Harry was talking to Albus Severus and said that Snape was one of the bravest men he knew. That was so great. I literally squeed when during "The Prince's Tale" because it was one of my favorite chapters. And I was so happy when it came true!

Near the beginning of the book, Harry looked into the broken shard of Sirius' old mirror, and saw his eyes looking back at him. Since Rowling had previously said that Harry's eyes looking like Lily's eyes was important, I was convinced that Lily was still alive! It was a pretty good shock that Snape was in love with her though. How did Snape find where Harry and Hermione were hidden in the forest?

That last question sort of stumps me too! I thought at first that maybe your Patronus can find a person even if you don't know where they are, but that doesn't explain how the sword got there, or how the Patronus appeared at night when Harry was outside the tent and Hermione was asleep, or what the movement Ron thought he saw in the woods was. I wonder if Snape used the portrait of Phineus Nigellus somehow--a couple of days before the doe Patronus appeared to Harry, Hermione said that they were in the Forest of Dean while her beaded bag was open (I think the portrait was still inside it at this point). Maybe Phineus heard this and Snape was asking him for info about where Harry was. The book also seems to imply that the night the doe Patronus appears to Harry is the first night in that forest that Harry keeps watch (we get references to Hermione's "solicitousness" and Harry refusing Hermione's offer to keep watch that night. Maybe Snape had been lurking in the forest waiting for an opportunity to find Harry alone?:hmm:

in snapes memory, after dumbledore tells him harry will die, and asks him if hes grown to care for the boy, snape says "care for him?"(havent got the book on me) and does lilys patronus,
dumbledore asks "after all this time?"
and snape replys "always"
what does this mean?
does snape care for harry?
when he says always, does that mean he has "always" cared for harry (never acted like it though)
or "hes grown to care for harry"?
but then why does he make lilys patronus at that point, this confuses me, when dumbeldore sees the patronus and asks, "after all this time" is he asking whether snape still loves lily? but then that doesnt answer whether he has "always" loved lily or harry?
on another point how does harry know that lilys patronus was a doe?ive not seen it mentioned in any of the other books, its not stated clearly in snapes memory that lilys patronus was a doe, and yet harry tells voldermort, that snapes patronus was the same as my mums.

So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts? I liked it; how it tied to Spinner's End and everything. I was a little surprised though that Petunia never mentioned it or at least, I don't recall her mentioning Snape.


What do you think this friendship was based on? I think the friendship was based on a) they were both different from other kids b) Lily accepted him and it didn't appear from his memories that she made fun of him for being poor c) she talked to him.

Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts? Because she accepted him from the beginning and they had a strong friendship that continued over the years.

How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin? Given the way we saw how the 2 houses interacted during Harry's time at Hogwarts, I would say if they saw these 2 interacting with each other, they wouldn't be pleased. I am sure there was some taunting involved and lots of peer pressure to not associate with each other.

How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory? I understood it more. I had a feeling that Snape had a crush on Lily, I didn't realize he had been in LOVE with her for all that time.

Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"? I think they just ended up drifting apart as they grew older and realized they both had different goals in life. Plus, as she mentioned in the book, he called others mudblood even though he said he never meant to call her one. So I don't think she fully ever forgave him for calling her that because it was a slur to her kind in general.

Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater? Definitely, I think they would have had a different relationship as well.

Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses? I absolutely think so.

in snapes memory, after dumbledore tells him harry will die, and asks him if hes grown to care for the boy, snape says "care for him?"(havent got the book on me) and does lilys patronus,
dumbledore asks "after all this time?"
and snape replys "always"
what does this mean?
does snape care for harry?
when he says always, does that mean he has "always" cared for harry (never acted like it though)
or "hes grown to care for harry"?
but then why does he make lilys patronus at that point, this confuses me, when dumbeldore sees the patronus and asks, "after all this time" is he asking whether snape still loves lily? but then that doesnt answer whether he has "always" loved lily or harry?
on another point how does harry know that lilys patronus was a doe?ive not seen it mentioned in any of the other books, its not stated clearly in snapes memory that lilys patronus was a doe, and yet harry tells voldermort, that snapes patronus was the same as my mums.

I believe that the "always" was referring to the fact that Snape will always love Lily. That's why he's still using her patronus.

first off - oh my god!!! The book was amazing.

It always seemed to me that Snape (no, from now on I think I'll call him Severus!) loved Lily. The blind hatred he felt towards James and absence of any negative remark about Lily (muggle born and all that) (well, any negative remark I can remember) seemed like jealousy to me. The kind that can spring from unrequited love.

I'm sure Lily forgave Severus for calling her a mudblood, and if he had turned from the Death Eaters while she lived (if she knew, I mean) I think she would have forgiven him for all his cruelties towards others, too. If he had just been sorry for them in time!

I don't think Lily ever loved him as more than a friend, but even when he was a death eater and they were estranged I believe she never stopped. Let me just say at first it seemed like he truly was working for voldemort, and when he watched the murder of the former muggle studies professor I lost all hope for - for - for, well, that he was truly good, a belief I've had since the first book, and one that the death of dumbledore hadn't shaken.

I think their relationship would have been different if they were both in the same house, and specifically if Severus had been in any house other than slytherin. There he was influenced by Malfoy and others leaning towards death eater ways.

So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts? I liked it; how it tied to Spinner's End and everything. I was a little surprised though that Petunia never mentioned it or at least, I don't recall her mentioning Snape.


She did in OotP - she explained she knew about Dementors because she heard Lily and 'that awful boy' talking about them once. Since she had no reason to suppose Harry knew Snape, she had no reason to use his name. (I would guess the Dursleys never talked to Harry about his classes and teachers, given their horror of magic).

So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts?

I loved it, it made sense to me. I never think that James was "that awful boy" that Petunia had mentioned.

What do you think this friendship was based on?

Lily was kind to him, she didn't make fun of him. She had intelligence, which Severus would have admired, and she was pretty and brave. I think Lily would have liked that he explained her magic to her, and opened up the Wizarding World to her even before Hogwarts. I think she appreciated his intelligence too.

Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts?

Because she had known him since childhood, she knew he needed her, and because the Marauders were obnoxious prats.

How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin?

They were probably very rude, and the Gryffindors probably jinxed Severus, and the Slytherins probably jinxed Lily and Severus.

How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory?

Well, I already suspected why it was his worst memory, but I understood why he freaked out so much. Also, I still think James and Sirius were gits.

Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"?

Probably she did in her mind, but never told him.

Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater?

Yes, I think she would have told him he was forgiven, and they might even have ended up together.

Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?

Heck yes.

This is my first ever post, all though I have read the forums for quite some time.

I think that I must be the only one still holding on to my Harry-Stubborness. I don't care that Snape loved Lily. He was borderline evil, and nothing excuses that. He showed a deeply ingrained malicious nature, and not just to Harry. Think of Hermione, and her rapidly growing teeth, and Snape's cruel comment to her. How he harassed and belittled Neville. And let's not forget that Snape didn't care at all about the lives of James or Lily's baby. He came to Dumbledore for his own selfish reasons. And I have to agree with Dumbledore's response of revulsion for such a person.
I too thought for a long time that Snape must have harbored love for Lily. It made sense, especially in regards to SWM and Lily's potions genius. However I can not excuse the way has behaved. He has treated Harry horribly, for an event that was in fact much more Snape's fault than Harry's. I understand that it must have been hard for Snape to look at Harry, but it must have been hard for all those who knew and loved his family.
Now I will admit that Snape was brave to act as double agent, and as the chapter went on, I found myself forgiving him. But Snape made it clear, when he showed Dumbledore his patronus that it was never for Harry's sake. IMO, Snape was sorted into the house in which he belonged. Though he was brave in the end, this was tempered by his nature, I do not believe that his bravery is able to negate his actions.
Snape in the end is equal to Wormtail. Peter wanted to save his own neck, and couldn't understand the value of others lives. The only life that held value for Snape was Lily's.

I think you are far too hard on Severus. Also, in regards to his teeth comment, he KNEW Voldemort was coming back soon, it would be rather out of character (as far as Voldemort knows him) for him to say "Oh, you poor dear, I'll punish that naughty Death Eater Malfoy boy, you run along to the hospital wing". His Slytherins would tell their parents, and it'd get back to Voldemort, and then poor Severus would have been snake bit three years earlier.

She did in OotP - she explained she knew about Dementors because she heard Lily and 'that awful boy' talking about them once. Since she had no reason to suppose Harry knew Snape, she had no reason to use his name. (I would guess the Dursleys never talked to Harry about his classes and teachers, given their horror of magic).

Though she didn't correct Harry when he said that if she meant his father then, she should use his name.

The only life that held value for Snape was Lily's.

I think...that was true to begin with. How true it was at the end I don't know. But that made me sorriest for him, to be honest. That he didn't really get love, and how loving more than one person makes your love for each one stronger, not weaker.

Still think he's a git. But one that's good...very, very deep down.

Well the book was great, and even though I have mixed feelings about some points in the story one of my absolute favorite plots has to be the confirmation of Snapes love for Lily. I find it a great plotline that just adds a great dimension to Harry, Snapes, and the books storyline as a whole when you look back. It's too bad the sorting hat tossed Sev into the Green camp ... like Dumbledore said, perhaps they sort too early! I've always had a dislike toward James Potter as he just struck me as a cocky and cruel jock type kid, that always had everything handed to him on a silver platter. Sirius for that matter seemed similar in ways, but James always seemed far worse. I think Snapes resentment of James was multi-flavored in jealousy as well as just an extreme dislike for obvious reasons. It's too bad that Lily choose him over Snape ... or anyone for that matter.

*Sigh* Poor, poor Severus... even in the afterlife, Lily would still be with James, and never return his feelings. :upset:

Exactly :no:

Eventhough in the beginning Snape's love was only for Lily. His transformation seems quite clear IMO by the end of the memories. He tells Dumbledore the only people he could not save are the ones that he could not help, meaning he did care. Love I think made him a better person.

The Prince's tale is defintely one of the best chapter in the entire series. Everything is so beautiful. How love for someone can totally changed a person and make a person risked his life for something he knows he can never have. It is real yet unbelieveable yet sad yet touching yet cruel. JKR is really a master of words.

But have anyone wondered that Snape's hatred for James probably grew even more when he thought (as Dumbledore had) that James's trust in Black was the reason that Lily died. I think that might have some implications. Now I know why Snape was beyond reason in POA. He said that how he wished he was the one to caught him. He wanted to avenge Lily's death himself.

A very beautiful chapter with few beautiful lines..

look...at...me
After all this time... always..

in snapes memory, after dumbledore tells him harry will die, and asks him if hes grown to care for the boy, snape says "care for him?"(havent got the book on me) and does lilys patronus,
dumbledore asks "after all this time?"
and snape replys "always"
what does this mean?
does snape care for harry?
when he says always, does that mean he has "always" cared for harry (never acted like it though)
or "hes grown to care for harry"?
but then why does he make lilys patronus at that point, this confuses me, when dumbeldore sees the patronus and asks, "after all this time" is he asking whether snape still loves lily? but then that doesnt answer whether he has "always" loved lily or harry?
on another point how does harry know that lilys patronus was a doe?ive not seen it mentioned in any of the other books, its not stated clearly in snapes memory that lilys patronus was a doe, and yet harry tells voldermort, that snapes patronus was the same as my mums.


Snape always loved Lily. Snape never loved Harry, except that Harry was Lily's son. He cared after him for that reason alone. And yet he hated James so much that he could not bring himself to truly care for Harry. And Harry looked so much like James that Snape could not see that Harry was much more like Lily than he was like James. (despite all the trouble he got into at school, he wasn't a prankster like his father or even the Weasley twins).

Harry guess it was a Doe after seeing Snape's. And perhaps it is even said in that memory. It makes sense that hers is a Doe, since James' is a stag. I mean... she probably never cast a patronus until after she already fell in love with James.