Snape and Lily - the Relationship Revealed!

what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts?

I think that it was just because he lived near her and saw that she could do magic. It was a coincidence.

What do you think this friendship was based on?

Snape showed kindness only to her. She knew the real Severus and liked his personality. Then she realized that he was hanging out with death eaters who hated muggle borns which she was.


Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts?
She liked him and thought that she could change him but soon found out that she couldn't.

How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin?

I don't think they were very close, I mean people do talk to each other despite being in other houses. I think they had an unspoken friendship.

How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory?
I think it's sad that he was outbeat by James even though I like James as well. It confuses me.

Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"?
Yes.

Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater?
Yeah.

Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?

Obviously. If Severus was in Gryffindor he would have hung out with James and the marauders.

Well, I always thought Snape loved Lily, so I wasn't surprised at all! I thought it was weird that Lily and Snape knew each other before Hogwarts though. I guess I had pictured it differently. I thought that Lily had befriended Snape at school, you know, the kind girl making friends with the kid everyone picks on.

It's amazing to think that Snape kept those feelings to himself for so long.

He cared after him for that reason alone.

That and to reduce some of the guilt that he had for having caused the death of his love. ;)

James sacrificed his life for Lily too, but he was rewarded for it...he got Lily. I think this shows us the distinction between 'true love' and 'not-true love'. The latter exemplified by Snape, being unrequited, all a figment of one's imagination, one-sided and generally ends up ruining your life forever.

Snape was brave, but was his bravery honorable? No.

It was based on the above unrequitted love and he hated James and Harry (couldn't have cared less that they were going to die), treated Harry horribly and evilly (even used that vicious whipping curse) and was so lost in his own anger he could not continue the occulmency lessons - and he was an adult! I found his behavior deplorable.

ps. Remember: we only saw a memory of James picking on Snape. But Sirius and Remus assured us that Snape also picked on James, flashing horrible curses on him, etc. So he was not the "sad, picked on, bullied kid" - he gave as good as he got. He hung with an evil group of friends - that is the Snape I remember.

Delighted to be here discussing this enchanting, puzzling, thought-provoking book.

Oooh, hell, this is sad - but here is my question:

When Snape lay dying, with Harry beside him, he gave out his memory.

He said "Look at me". Was that -- look at my memories, look at my life, look at me, look at who I am, look at all of my life, how I have been Dumbledore's man, at his side, all this time.

Or was it "Look at me" so that I can see Lily's eyes once more before I die?

that's heart wrenching, that is!
It's so weird to think that if Snape and Lily were in the same house, that snape would've probably been harry's father....wow....

So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts?

I was shocked. Definitely wasn't expecting it.

What do you think this friendship was based on?

I think, given the descriptions JK gave us, Snape fell for her pretty hard and Lily was a kind person who wouldn't have turned down a friend no matter their appearance.

Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts?

Because they were friends. You don't turn your back on your friends until you feel you absolutely have to.

How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin?

I don't think they were entirely open to it. They probably questioned it and even thought they were a little mad.

How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory?

I think it proves that what made that memory so bad was what he said to Lily. It was never what happened to him that pained him so.

Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"?

I think she eventually got over it but I don't think they ever reunited as friends. I think they just drifted apart...poor Snape...

Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater?

I don't know, it's hard to say. She seemed pretty angry and I was/am under the impression that she didn't speak to him after the incident so I don't believe she would have. They'd drifted so far apart that there was no hope for a reconciliation, not any time soon, at least.

Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?

Yes, I do. I think JK showed us Snape's being sorted into Slytherin for a reason -- to show how us where their paths separated. He fell into the wrong crowd, literally, as soon as he reached the Slytherin table when, if he'd been with Lily the majority of the time, I think she would have been able to keep him on the right path.

I don't care that Snape loved Lily. He was borderline evil
I dunno. After DH, I've read a lot of evil, and Snape doesn't exactly fit the ticket anymore.

He is a pretty cruel, mean person though but evil? Giving Harry stupid detentions and taking off house points just seems so petty after reading DH.

James sacrificed his life for Lily too, but he was rewarded for it...he got Lily. I think this shows us the distinction between 'true love' and 'not-true love'. The latter exemplified by Snape, being unrequited, all a figment of one's imagination, one-sided and generally ends up ruining your life forever.
It's onesidedness doesn't mean it wasn't true love. Come on people, didn't we all read the last parts of DH? Why are we still debating whether or not Snape truly loved Lily when it is clearly canon that he did?

And I'd say Dumbledore would disagree with you. He thought Snape love for Lily was his best quality.

Delighted to be here discussing this enchanting, puzzling, thought-provoking book.

Oooh, hell, this is sad - but here is my question:

When Snape lay dying, with Harry beside him, he gave out his memory.

He said "Look at me". Was that -- look at my memories, look at my life, look at me, look at who I am, look at all of my life, how I have been Dumbledore's man, at his side, all this time.

Or was it "Look at me" so that I can see Lily's eyes once more before I die?

I think both, actually. I definitely think he wanted to see "Lily's" eyes in his dying moment, but I also think he desperately wanted Harry to understand everything that was happening. Snape saying "look at me", in an almost pleading way, reminded me very much of how Dumbledore pleaded with Snape to follow through with the plan and kill him in book 6.

I think Snapes love for Lily was true, just as true as James's. A patronus is too powerful a spell to be changed to represent Lily (the doe) if it was just an infatuation, or 'not-true' love. Just because the love wasn't returned doesn't mean it wasn't as strong. Possibly that makes it stronger in want... the more Snape wanted Lily, the more he loved her.

I thought that they had a relationship but I didnt think that they knew each other before Hogwarts.

i was rather surprised by the whole lilysnape thing, because i thought snape was bad.

but in a way, i also wasn't. i wanted to cry during that chapter when harry saw all those memories from snape. as mean as he was to harry, i think it was purely because james was the one that lily ended up marrying and having a kid with. but like dumbdledore told him, he only saw harry like he saw james because he wanted to. do you get what i mean? it's a bit confusing, i know.

overall, i feel sorry for snape. those memories make me forget how horrible he was to harry otherwise. poor man.

Eventhough in the beginning Snape's love was only for Lily. His transformation seems quite clear IMO by the end of the memories. He tells Dumbledore the only people he could not save are the ones that he could not help, meaning he did care. Love I think made him a better person.

Yes! I was also very moved by his obvious disgust at what Voldemort is doing to the Malfoys when he gives Draco the impossible job of killing Dumbledore- "Slow torture for Draco's parents". that and his castigationof Phineas for calling Hermione a mudblood surely shows that his love for Lily has finally allowed him to care about others, as well as just her.

^
I completely felt it was because he wanted to try and see Lily, as he knew her, one more time.

I found some of the Snape and Lily backhistory to be very cheesy, but that part really tore me up. I didn't make me tearful, but it did wrench my heart.

This revelation also made me realise that Snape's hostility towards Sirius in the Shrieking Shack obviously wasn't based entirely on how he had treated Snape, but more so because he believed him to be the one who was responsible for revealing where the Potters were. Re-reading that chapter in PoA just takes on an entirely different meaning now.

what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts?

This is the only thing that keeps this storyline from being pure soap opera. It is unexpected and makes Snape's love all the more desperate because he held it so long.

What do you think this friendship was based on?

He introduced her to a new world, showed her that she was not a freak, accepted her talent and power. She saw past his troubled family and shabby appearance.


Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts?
We all stick with friends who move away into other directions. Maybe he didn't share his passion for the Dark Arts with her, maybe she didn't realized it was so serious, maybe she thought it was just rumour. Maybe she thought she could help get him away from it.

How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin?

I think a lot of the tension between Slytherin students and the other students were actually fuelled by Snape when he became a teacher.

How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory?
It is his worst memory because he and he alone is responsible for pushing Lily away from him for good. Even if she forgave him and kept their friendship, after this point, romantic love was impossible for her and he knew it. It was his mistake and he would have to live with it forever.

Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"?
Yes.

Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater?
I think she would have promised him nearly everything but herself to keep him from it.

Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?

No, their friendship was based on years of childhood together. It was fixed before they came to Hogwarts. They had been in each other's homes.

This whole story just proves how big a coward Snape really was. "Love wants for the beloved" to quote someone I can't remember. Snape should have wanted Lily to be happy, even with James, even with someone else's child. Instead he hated her happiness, he never showed her that he deserved forgiveness by changing his ways, by proving he was worthy. He never gave into love, so he lost her.

While reading HBP I figured that Snape must have been in love with Lily, but I do have to admit that I didn't think that had anything to do with why Dumbledore had trusted Snape so well. I think what I was most surprised by was Snape's patronus! Also, while this is naturally very silly and certainly wrong, for a little bit the thought flickered in my mind... "What if Snape was really Harry's dad!" I know, that's so soap opera drama, but I'm not afraid to say I thought about it for a split second!

I didn't really interpret Snape's love for Lily as being the only reason that Dumbledore trusted him. Yes it played a HUGE role, don't get me wrong, but I think a major point that was missed is that Dumbledore's trust had just as much to do with Snape's hatred of James as it did with his love for Lily. Harry was part of both James and Lily, and even though Snape hated James, probably more than he hated anyone else, he still accepted the responsibility of protecting Harry out of his love for Lily. When it comes down to it, I really think it was Snape's ability to overcome his hatred for James that earned Dumbledore's trust! His love for Lily alone was easy for him, but overcoming his hatred for James enough to accept Harry was his biggest hurdle.

And does anyone else think that still... gee... James *was* such an *** in school. Sure he might have been charming, but he was not really someone to be proud of (it's hard to imagine him being all grown up as we never get to see that he did.) Harry definitely had more of Lily's personality than James'. (Would James have freed Dobby? Would James have been kind to Kreacher? Or the goblin?)

Anyway, bravo Jo! I wish that Harry had had a chance to speak with Snape (in King's Cross or via portrait) after he knew the truth, but... ah well.

Yup, I agree. Part of me thinks that Harry might have turned out a little like his father had his parents lived, though.

As for talking to Snape, I think that those feelings were better left unresolved- besides which, Harry named one of his son's after Snape, which indicates that he made the (major) dual steps of coming to terms with his anger and forgiving Snape, among other things.

James sacrificed his life for Lily too, but he was rewarded for it...he got Lily. I think this shows us the distinction between 'true love' and 'not-true love'. The latter exemplified by Snape, being unrequited, all a figment of one's imagination, one-sided and generally ends up ruining your life forever.

Snape was brave, but was his bravery honorable? No.

It was based on the above unrequitted love and he hated James and Harry (couldn't have cared less that they were going to die), treated Harry horribly and evilly (even used that vicious whipping curse) and was so lost in his own anger he could not continue the occulmency lessons - and he was an adult! I found his behavior deplorable.

ps. Remember: we only saw a memory of James picking on Snape. But Sirius and Remus assured us that Snape also picked on James, flashing horrible curses on him, etc. So he was not the "sad, picked on, bullied kid" - he gave as good as he got. He hung with an evil group of friends - that is the Snape I remember.
I don’t think there was anything dishonorable about Snape loving Lily his whole life when she never loved him back; after all this was nothing superficial, it’s not as if he could have helped it. His still having the doe patronus said it louder than anything; he loved her, he’d always loved her, she’d been dead for sixteen years and he still loved her, and that would never change no matter what she did, or who she was married to. After seeing that little montage of memories I can’t help but think of Snape as the most selfless character in the series; he did everything for Lily after she died, he devoted his life to helping her son even if he insisted on hating the boy. He must have known for a long time that he would never have Lily, even before she died. I doubt whether he ever stopped thinking of her, though, not after seeing his memories.

Doesn’t it make a bit of sense that Snape picked on James, though? He loved Lily, and he obviously wasn’t an idiot he could tell that James wanted Lily. I don’t see either boy as being at fault now. Sure they should have handled it better, even as children, but whether you were a bit of a bully as a teenager really has no reflection on who you are as an adult.

[QUOTE=Jessica;4630367]
So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts? What do you think this friendship was based on? Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts? How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin? How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory? Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"? Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater? Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?

Revelation 1: Snape and Lily's pre-Hogwarts relationship/ What was it based on?
- I think that it was an interesting mini-twist. I had suspected that Snape had feelings for Lily because of the "Worst Memory" chapter in OotP. Having him know her and even Petunia really fleshed out the background of what was there. He was such a sad, lonely, unloved child by either parent. He saw light, love, friendship, and caring in Lily's family. The bonus was that she was a witch, but since she was Muggle-born, she didn't know it. That gave him a way to start talking to her, a way to have a connection with her when they had nothing else in common. It also gave him a chance to be in a teaching role; telling her all about the wizarding world that she knew nothing of. I felt that their relationship made a lot more sense, and Snape's subsequent actions, seeing how long they knew each other. Lily, on the other hand, was a loving girl who felt drawn to help people. I think she took pity on Snape, especially knowing how his parents fought, and wanted to give him a friendship.

Revelation 2: Why did Lily continue to associate with him even with him involved in the Dark Arts?
- Because Lily, much like Harry, has a warm heart who believes in the innate good of others. Snape was her friend for years and years, and she doesn't seem like the type to let "class" or "house" get in the way of whom she cares about. I think she also wanted to "save him," or give him another option besides the Dark Arts. I am not convinced that she loved him in the way Snape loved her, but I think she truly loved him as a friend. She is not the type of abandon anyone unless she is driven to leave.

Revelation 3: House Reactions to their friendship?- I'm guessing that there was a lot of confusion and wonder about such a mismatched pairing. Neither house would understand the appeal of a member of the other. Most likely both were given a hard time about associating with the other.

Revelation 4: How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory? [/COLOR]
- It makes the scene far more tragic. It wasn't just the loss of the girl he loved, it was the loss of the ONLY true friendship he had ever had. He lost the first person who loved him, the first person who cared about him and what happened to him.

Revelation 5: Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"? Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater?
- I think perhaps not.... or she just moved on with her life at Hogwarts and then on with her family. She doesn't seem like the type to hold grudges, but I think this episode was the last straw. Perhaps even she didn't understand why she held onto their friendship, when he was so determined to run around with Death Eaters. I think if he had done ACTIONS to change his ways, she would easily have forgiven him. Instead with his lips he denied the Mudblood label, but with his actions and choices he screamed it still.

Revelation 6: Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?
- Entirely different. It's funny how the destinies of so many people were effected by one simple moment under a hat. He had the same choice that Harry did, but he went after power. He had just as cruel of a childhood as Harry, but instead of choosing Love he chose power. I'm sure he thought that by going into Slytherin, he would become a great wizard worthy of Lily. Instead it made him into something she could never love.

---
It makes the reasons why Snape hated Harry on sight the easier to understand. Here, in front of him, was the spitting image of a man who had humiliated him.... who had been the exact opposite of him... who had won the heart of the girl he himself adored. And then, just to ram this pain in further, the boy has Lily's eyes. Imagine looking into someone who looks identical to your worst enemy, but their eyes are the same as the person you love the most. It's a double tragedy combined with how he inadvertantly led to James and Lily's deaths.

James sacrificed his life for Lily too, but he was rewarded for it...he got Lily. I think this shows us the distinction between 'true love' and 'not-true love'. The latter exemplified by Snape, being unrequited, all a figment of one's imagination, one-sided and generally ends up ruining your life forever.

I wouldn't say that Snape's love for Lily wasn't "true love" because Snape spent his entire life in remorse for having caused Lily's death, and he turned Spy for the order only to protect Harry, who was the son of his love. If it wasn't true love Snape wouldn't have bothered to make such a sacrifice. He wouldn't have agreed to live such a dangerous life. But he did, and this shows that his love was true.

Why didn't he get Lily? Well he never came forward to express his love for Lily, though she would have understood it, but he never expressed it and James did. Moreover he went to the wrong side...he chose to stick with his passion for Dark Arts which Lily despised. Then there is the obvious fact that James was more adorable than Snape. :lol:

I thought there was more to the Snape and Lily relationship when it was revealed what his worst memory had been. I think it's his worst memory because he was humiliated in front of the only person he had ever really cared about and the only person who had ever cared about him. Also, he always tries to show how strong he is both emotionally and magically, so to have to have a girl stand up for him it showed his weakness. I think that if Lily and James had lived eventually Lily would have forgiven him and remained friends with him in their adult years although it would not have been a close relationship. I also think that Snape would have been able to move on from Lily even though he would always have had feelings for her.

Snapes love was a strange kind.He obviously had feeling only for Lily.They weren't enough for him to leave the dark arts but enough to remain until he died.Also his behaviour towards Harry,as many have said,was inexcusable,but also very strange,he seem to feel nothing for Harry even though he was Lilys son.All I can think is that Harry resembled James far too much.

Snapes love was a strange kind.He obviously had feeling only for Lily.They weren't enough for him to leave the dark arts but enough to remain until he died.Also his behaviour towards Harry,as many have said,was inexcusable,but also very strange,he seem to feel nothing for Harry even though he was Lilys son.All I can think is that Harry resembled James far too much.

I don’t believe it was that Snape loved the Dark Arts more than Lily, it was that he knew Lily would never love him back. I don’t think he ever treated Harry in an inexcusable manner. He never forced Harry to write with his own blood. I think that Snape did care about Harry, but he was the very symbol of Lily’s and James’ relationship. He was the result of it, Harry Potter symbolized everything that Snape dreaded, but at the same time, with Lily gone, he was also all that was left of her. I think in the memories we see that Snape really did care.

What??? The only time I found James bearable was when he was blowing smoke rings for Harry. His attempt to wandlessly hold off Voldemort was brave, but stupid. Snape would have blasted Voldemort into the next millenia if he had dared try to kill HIS wife.

Snapes love was a strange kind.He obviously had feeling only for Lily.They weren't enough for him to leave the dark arts but enough to remain until he died.Also his behaviour towards Harry,as many have said,was inexcusable,but also very strange,he seem to feel nothing for Harry even though he was Lilys son.All I can think is that Harry resembled James far too much.

I agree, when Snape looks at Harry he must almost always see James. Not only did James make his life miserable, he married the woman Snape loved. How could Snape not despise James? I guess Snape can only see Lily in Harry when he sees his eyes, but usually he just sees James.

I thought there was more to the Snape and Lily relationship when it was revealed what his worst memory had been. I think it's his worst memory because he was humiliated in front of the only person he had ever really cared about and the only person who had ever cared about him. Also, he always tries to show how strong he is both emotionally and magically, so to have to have a girl stand up for him it showed his weakness. I think that if Lily and James had lived eventually Lily would have forgiven him and remained friends with him in their adult years although it would not have been a close relationship. I also think that Snape would have been able to move on from Lily even though he would always have had feelings for her.

Or perhaps it sort of marked the end of their friendship ever being the same. His using such a slur must have been a horrible blow to their relationship; even if they were still friends after that, it must have been hard for her to see him the same way again especially knowing that he was hanging out with future DE.

She did in OotP - she explained she knew about Dementors because she heard Lily and 'that awful boy' talking about them once. Since she had no reason to suppose Harry knew Snape, she had no reason to use his name. (I would guess the Dursleys never talked to Harry about his classes and teachers, given their horror of magic).

I remember that. I just assumed that the "awful boy" was James.

Good job in spotting that!:tu:

Snapes love was a strange kind.He obviously had feeling only for Lily.They weren't enough for him to leave the dark arts but enough to remain until he died.Also his behaviour towards Harry,as many have said,was inexcusable,but also very strange,he seem to feel nothing for Harry even though he was Lilys son.All I can think is that Harry resembled James far too much.

I've been thinking about this point a lot. As of now, I see his treatment of Harry as being part of the act. He couldn't be nice to him and still be convincing to Voldemort. That leads to a point that some others have made elsewhere though, that maybe Snape could have been nice to Harry, and hidden this from Voldemort using Occlumency, however, we saw that even Harry was able to break through Snape's thoughts, albeit unintentionally, which sort of proves that maybe Snape was a better legilimens than occlumens. In addition, if Snape was outwardly nice to Harry, it may have lessened his ability to do what needed to be done in order to protect him. Softened his defenses, so to speak. It also would have been noticed by others, such as the Malfoys and other deatheaters, if Snape ever showed any sign of being outwardly nice to Harry. He would have been immediately suspected as spying for Dumbledore if he was ever caught treating Harry with anything less than loathing.

This whole story just proves how big a coward Snape really was. "Love wants for the beloved" to quote someone I can't remember. Snape should have wanted Lily to be happy, even with James, even with someone else's child. Instead he hated her happiness, he never showed her that he deserved forgiveness by changing his ways, by proving he was worthy. He never gave into love, so he lost her.

I understand what you're saying but it's hard to call Snape a coward after all he did for Dumbledore, Harry and the Order. He might have been a coward at first but he repayed it throughout his life. He did change his ways the moment Lily was in danger. He obviously could not tell her, but he subtly helped prolong hers and many others' lives through his role as a spy for the order.

And if Snape had tried to hide too much from Voldemort with Occlumency then Voldie would have gotten suspicious. No, I think it’s much better this way. That way he had more than just hidden memories to mask his true loyalty, but he had decoy memories as well. Really, Snape did no more harm to Harry than many children’s least favorite teacher except when he had to.

I agree.

As of now, I see his treatment of Harry as being part of the act. He couldn't be nice to him and still be convincing to Voldemort. That leads to a point that some others have made elsewhere though, that maybe Snape could have been nice to Harry, and hidden this from Voldemort using Occlumency, however, we saw that even Harry was able to break through Snape's thoughts, albeit unintentionally, which sort of proves that maybe Snape was a better legilimens than occlumens. In addition, if Snape was outwardly nice to Harry, it may have lessened his ability to do what needed to be done in order to protect him. Softened his defenses, so to speak. It also would have been noticed by others, such as the Malfoys and other deatheaters, if Snape ever showed any sign of being outwardly nice to Harry. He would have been immediately suspected as spying for Dumbledore if he was ever caught treating Harry with anything less than loathing.


I agree that it could well be part of the act, like Mrs Figg, who was supposed to be indifferent and unfriendly with Harry, but I don't think he really had to make much effort to show dislike for Harry because firstly he so very well resembled James, that dislike populated quiet easily. Then there were several occasions when Harry acted like his father, which further helped Snape to dislike him.

I don't think that Snape said "Look...at...me" from the perspective of wanting to see Lily's eyes. I think it was from the perspective of Snape wanting Harry to look at his life, to see why he was the way he was, for him to see his mother the way Snape saw her and how one word or action could make you lose someone you care about forever. Also, so that Harry could see that he did not kill Dumbledore. He already lost Harry's mom as a friend by one particular action and I don't think he wanted to die knowing that he let down her son.

I agree that it could well be part of the act, like Mrs Figg, who was supposed to be indifferent and unfriendly with Harry, but I don't think he really had to make much effort to show dislike for Harry because firstly he so very well resembled James, that dislike populated quiet easily. Then there were several occasions when Harry acted like his father, which further helped Snape to dislike him.

But disliking someone is not a crime. Snape was perfectly within his rights to hate the boy the woman he loved had with another man.

That's what I think he meant.

I agree -- Snape wanted to see Lily's eyes one more time.

Wow, that really surprised me to know that they were best of friends. I thought they only knew each other because of Hogwarts.

I agree -- Snape wanted to see Lily's eyes one more time.

That’s how I saw it. :agree:

Funny that now we understand the full meaning of 'Snape's Worst Memory' and understand why it was his worst memory. Before DH, we were all thinking that it was his worst memory because James and Sirius embarassed him...or at the very most, that it was his worst memory because they embarrased him in front of Lily. But in reality, it was his worst memory because it was the day that he lost Lily forever. Go JKR and layers of meaning!

And does anyone else think that still... gee... James *was* such an *** in school. Sure he might have been charming, but he was not really someone to be proud of (it's hard to imagine him being all grown up as we never get to see that he did.) Harry definitely had more of Lily's personality than James'. (Would James have freed Dobby? Would James have been kind to Kreacher? Or the goblin?)


I honestly have not liked James much since 'Snapes worst memory' in OotP.Even in this book I wondered of his feelings for Lily,he didn't seem to bothered in the train,leading me to believe that his initial feelling for Lily were superficial.I'm know that wasn't the case later,but I'm guessing he only 'really' got to know her in the 7th year(thoough I could be wrong about all that).

Harry was definatly much more like Lily.He is one of the kindest people in the book,his treatement of ppl shows it,Luna and dobby just to name some examples.DD made a good point on how Snape saw in Harry what he wanted to see,because really he was much more like Lily.

I agree that it could well be part of the act, like Mrs Figg, who was supposed to be indifferent and unfriendly with Harry, but I don't think he really had to make much effort to show dislike for Harry because firstly he so very well resembled James, that dislike populated quiet easily. Then there were several occasions when Harry acted like his father, which further helped Snape to dislike him.

I agree to a point. I have no doubt that Snape hated James and that hatred was, at times, projected onto Harry, but Snape had to have gotten past that hatred enough to protect Harry, otherwise I don't believe that Dumbledore would have trusted him. I don't think that Snape's love for Lily alone was enough to win Dumbledore over. I think it was the admission that he cared for Harry in spite of the fact that he was James' son that won Dumbledore's trust, so based on that, his treatment of Harry can't entirely be attributed to his hatred for James. A little? Absolutely, but I don't think enirely.

Umm.. I was insanely bent on him being the bad guy, so this was a total blow, but I took it all back. I think Snape was very brave, and I also agree about him wanting to look at Harry's eyes, because of Lily's. He has suddenly become one of my favorite characters.

Well I was totally wrong about Snape/Lily. :lol:

I don't think Snape's attitude towards Harry was an act, he truly didn't like Harry because he reminded Snape too much of James. But he did promise to protect the boy. I also think he wanted Harry to look at him at the end so he could see Lily's eyes.

Snape is the one truly tragic figure in the books. By protecting Harry and being a spy for Dumbledore, he was forced to associate with the worst people and stand by and do nothing while Voldemort killed and tortured innocent people.

What??? The only time I found James bearable was when he was blowing smoke rings for Harry. His attempt to wandlessly hold off Voldemort was brave, but stupid. Snape would have blasted Voldemort into the next millenia if he had dared try to kill HIS wife.

I don't think that's true. After all, we know that James had prodigious skill. If Snape didn't have his wand with him at the time, he probably would have done the same thing as James. Nevertheless, it is weird that James was wandless when entered.

I personally find it hard to compare James and Snape. They were two vastly different characters, from different sides of the track, but they still managed to have one similarity: Lily. But I don't doubt the strength and courage in either.

James sacrificed his life for Lily too, but he was rewarded for it...he got Lily. I think this shows us the distinction between 'true love' and 'not-true love'. The latter exemplified by Snape, being unrequited, all a figment of one's imagination, one-sided and generally ends up ruining your life forever.

I disagree. Snape's love may have been unrequited, but it certainly wasn't a figment of his imagination. I don't believe he thought for a moment that Lily loved him back, or that anything would ever happen between them. He just loved her. And if it wasn't true love, he never would have gone to so much effort to protect her child.

Just because feelings aren't reciprocated, doesn't mean they aren't real.

Just because feelings aren't reciprocated, doesn't mean they aren't real.

How true - to quote Dumbledore "just because it's in your head, doesn't mean it's not real"

But disliking someone is not a crime. Snape was perfectly within his rights to hate the boy the woman he loved had with another man.

I never said it was a crime, I was merely stating why it was easy for Snape to dislike Harry rather than having to put up an act. :relax:

I don't believe that Dumbledore would have trusted him.

Oh he would have trusted him alright, because he knew that Snape's love for Lily was far more than his hatred for James. ;)

That chapter was the most beautiful chapter I've ever read. Honestly, I always knew Snape was good and that chapter made me fall in love with him even more! I was SOBBING. Especially when he showed Dumbledore his Patronus (the doe!!!) and dumbledore asked, "all this time?" and snape says "always". aww!!! And then that scene when Snape was crying while reading Lily's letter just broke my heart.

I don't think that Snape said "Look...at...me" from the perspective of wanting to see Lily's eyes. I think it was from the perspective of Snape wanting Harry to look at his life, to see why he was the way he was, for him to see his mother the way Snape saw her and how one word or action could make you lose someone you care about forever. Also, so that Harry could see that he did not kill Dumbledore. He already lost Harry's mom as a friend by one particular action and I don't think he wanted to die knowing that he let down her son.

I think it was a little of both. Giving him the memory and looking into the eyes that reminded him of those he loved. I think it could go either way.

I remember that. I just assumed that the "awful boy" was James.

Me too a few books ago. Somewhere during "Snape's Worst Memory" it occurred that it could be either one.

What??? The only time I found James bearable was when he was blowing smoke rings for Harry. His attempt to wandlessly hold off Voldemort was brave, but stupid. Snape would have blasted Voldemort into the next millenia if he had dared try to kill HIS wife.

James was 21 when he died, which gives him a "stupidity pass," in my opinion. Not to mention that he gave his life to stave off the attack on Lily and Harry. As for Snape- don't know how he would have reacted. Maybe the same way, given his feelings for Lily. He was besotted and in luuurrrrrve. Besides which, why did Lily think it was such a hot idea to stay in the house?

Clearly those two knew more about the power of love than they, or JKR, let on. :shrug:

But disliking someone is not a crime. Snape was perfectly within his rights to hate the boy the woman he loved had with another man.

Yup. Must have been agony for him too- the kid looks like his dad and has his mom's eyes. Ech. Snape was playing a role by distancing himself from Harry and putting up a front for everyone, which in itself can be exhausting. I'd hate someone who made me act that way too.

How true - to quote Dumbledore "just because it's in your head, doesn't mean it's not real"
:lol: People keep using that line on me....should I be worried? :rotfl:

But it wasn't in his head. It was real. Snape's feelings for Lily were not the product of some fantasy he had concocted - he had genuinely fallen in love with her. The fact that she didn't feel the same and he still loved her is what makes the whole thing so sad, that he never moved on. :(

:lol: People keep using that line on me....should I be worried? :rotfl:

But it wasn't in his head. It was real. Snape's feelings for Lily were not the product of some fantasy he had concocted - he had genuinely fallen in love with her. The fact that she didn't feel the same and he still loved her is what makes the whole thing so sad, that he never moved on. :(

I agree with you - I don't think his love was in his head at all. I think it was truly in his heart and his soul. Your post just reminded me of Dumbledore saying that line :)

I don't think that Snape said "Look...at...me" from the perspective of wanting to see Lily's eyes. I think it was from the perspective of Snape wanting Harry to look at his life, to see why he was the way he was, for him to see his mother the way Snape saw her and how one word or action could make you lose someone you care about forever. Also, so that Harry could see that he did not kill Dumbledore. He already lost Harry's mom as a friend by one particular action and I don't think he wanted to die knowing that he let down her son.

I really agree with your interpretation; I don't think he wanted to know that he let Lily's son down. I thought the Lily/Snape relationship was a little fanfiction-ish. Until now I didn't understand the true meaning of Snape's Worst Memory. This book completely changed how Snape is viewed by the readers.

should I be worried?

YES. :rotfl:

Snape's feelings for Lily were not the product of some fantasy he had concocted - he had genuinely fallen in love with her.

I agree with that, because Snape spent his entire life in remorse for having caused Lily's death, and he turned Spy for the order only to protect Harry, who was the son of his love. If it wasn't true love Snape wouldn't have bothered to make such a sacrifice. He wouldn't have agreed to live such a dangerous life. But he did, and this shows that his love was true.

I loved the Snape-Lilly storyline. That chapter made me cry, too.

I agree with the theory that Snape never expected Lily to love him back, he just loved her. I thought that was really sweet, and i've come to really appreciate Snape's character and everything he went through throughout the books.

I had a feeling that the doe patronus was Snape's but I wasn't completely sure. I was sobbing near the end of page 551..
Snape looked horrified.
"you have kept him alive so that he can die at the right moment?"
"Don't be shocked, Severus. How many men and women have you watched die?"
"Lately, only those whom I could not save," said Snape. He stood up. "You have used me,"
"Meaning?"
"I have spied for you, and lied for you, put myself in mortal danger for you. Everything was supposed to be to keep Lily Potter's son safe. Now you tell me you have been raising him like a pig for slaughter-"
"But this is touching, Severus," said Dumbledore seriously. "Have you grown to care for the boy, after all?"
(Snape conjures his patronus: the silver doe)
"After all this time?"
"Always," said Snape.

Beautiful scene. Beautiful.

YES. :rotfl:
Oh, shush. :p :rotfl:

I agree with that, because Snape spent his entire life in remorse for having caused Lily's death, and he turned Spy for the order only to protect Harry, who was the son of his love. If it wasn't true love Snape wouldn't have bothered to make such a sacrifice. He wouldn't have agreed to live such a dangerous life. But he did, and this shows that his love was true.
:agree: People will do anything for the person they love - and Snape really proved the depth of his feelings by making the choices he made.

I was very happy this theory came out to be fact. I'm a romantic who really wanted Snape to have some depth and be on the good side. I think that it was because he truly loved Lily that enabled him to be able to accept that she chose James but I think it was a hard thing for him to accept that Harry was a product of James and Lily not just Lily.
I really liked that chapter about all the Snape reveals.

I couldn't have said it better

I was so happy to hear about this relationship. I loved the way he watched her from afar and then had to pluck up the courage to talk to her. I love that they were friends before Hogwarts and remained friends after. I felt terrible for him though, because he always seemed to mess everything up.

The final argument they have was so sad. When she asks him why she is so different, I wanted him to tell her his feelings right then. It felt like if he had... things may have gone differently for him. It was heartbreaking. Then he went on and carried those feelings until his death requesting with his last breath to see Lily's eyes once more. This made me cry it was so sad...

Finally, we know his motivation for risking his life all this time, and it was love. Everything he did he did in out of love for Lily. The fact that the love was unrequited makes it all the more poignant. In spite of that, he still protects her son right to the end when he gives him the memories he needs to go on.

I now understand every snide remark he ever made. He was upset with the James in him... I am still upset about all that though. I feel that if Lily knew how Snape went on to treat Harry she would not be pleased. Although, I do know why he was like that.

I also love the part where he realizes that Dumbledore was planning on Harry's death. I thought that Snape's defense and anger were great. All this time he had protected Lily's son only to keep him alive long enough to watch him die. It revealed how deeply he could feel.

I thought that the relationship was handled beautifully in this book. JKR did an amazing job writing the scenes and I love the way she made Harry discover it all. Through all Snape's memories... it was brilliant.


This was everything I was thinking, I couldn't have put it better.

I was also a supporter of the "Snape/Lily" idea and was often told off because of it. :p
But "The Prince´s Tale" gave me more that I had ever dreamt of. *sob* What a beautiful, beautiful chapter!!! :love:
I felt angry at Dumbledore, I felt angry at Lily ... And I felt sorry for Snape for leading such a miserable life. How sad.
I don´t know who first introduced the idea that "that awful boy" was Snape, but I just loved it!
It only took me a little over than 5 hours to read the book and because I finished so quickly, I had no one to talk to, I was horror!

I just loved the way JKR portrayed Snape as an unloved and unwanted child. Just the way she described his clothes and the way he was tearing up the leaves when talking about his parents...

In my opinion, Lily *might* have fallen in love with Snape, if it weren´t for his problems. James is described as "slight, black-haired like Snape, but with that indefinable air of having been well cared for, even adored, that Snape so conspicuoisly lacked." I think this comparison is really interesting. James is a loved (maybe a little bit spoiled?) boy with a lot of self-esteem. He knows he is good-looking and that people like him. Snape, on the other hand, is used to people disliking or bullying him. One could say that James was the easier choice for Lily...

Just because feelings aren't reciprocated, doesn't mean they aren't real.

If anything it made his feelings more real.He loved unconditionally.

I never saw this Lily/Snape connection coming, but I find it to be the most poigniant, touching part of the entire series. Snape suffered from this unrequited love for his entire life, but apparently never wavered in his devotion to her. I see Snape in an entirely different light now.

I never really thought about lily and Snape's relationship before, but i couldn't have liked it more. I found it really sad when Snape asked Harry to look at him when he died. I didn't realise until after that he did this because Harry had Lily's eyes. I cried so much :-(

James sacrificed his life for Lily too, but he was rewarded for it...he got Lily. I think this shows us the distinction between 'true love' and 'not-true love'. The latter exemplified by Snape, being unrequited, all a figment of one's imagination, one-sided and generally ends up ruining your life forever.
I'm sorry but you seem to be implying that only love that is returned is real love and that because James married Lily his love was more real than Snape's.
The power of Snape's (or anyones) love is not determined by whether or not it is requited, or whether or not you marry the one you love.
I sincerely hope you never experience unrequited love - to love when all hope of return is gone - that is far more real and difficult than to love someone who loves you back.

Ah, tragic, unrequited love. How much we love it.

This whole relationship reminds me a bit of the Phantom of the Opera.:p

But anyways, I like to classify Snape's love as "unhealthy". Why? Well, he didn't move on after Lily married, had a son, and was later dead. That's not very healthy, is it? But it's still beautifully poignant and demonstrates how deep his feelings went.

I don't think Lily ever showed she liked him back during the chapter. If Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor, I'm not sure things would have been as happy. When Lily and Sevvy get on the train and go to the compartment with James and Sirius, it seems the latter two already had pinpointed Snape for their childish bullying after Snape makes an insult to Gryffindor.

And Snape was no angel either, I'm sure. Remember that he was the originator of Sectumsempra?

Which just shows how Jo realistically portrayed all the characters. Everyone's got more than one flaw, but they also have redeeming qualities in them.

What was the purpose of having Snape show Harry all of his memories of Lily? Here was the one thing that Snape obviously didn't want anybody to know about, and then he goes and shares it was Harry - and really for no purpose other than to show that he was on the side of good all along. But he was dying, so what difference did it make?

But anyways, I like to classify Snape's love as "unhealthy". Why? Well, he didn't move on after Lily married, had a son, and was later dead. That's not very healthy, is it? But it's still beautifully poignant and demonstrates how deep his feelings went.
I think if Lily had married anyone other than James... if the prophecy had referred to any child other than Lily's ... then he would have got over it. I think the reason he didn't get over it was because he felt responsible for her death and he couldn't forgive himself for that. That was why he was so bitter and twisted, because nobody blamed Snape more than he blamed himself.
I think an emotionally healthy person would struggle to get over that,but we've seen that Snape was not emotionally healthy even before this because of the neglect from his parents. He had not had a chance to bloom emotionally.

I thought that chapter was beautifully done. I had read theories about Snape and Lily before, and I didn't really buy into them. However, the way this storyline was written was wonderful. It was so poignant and tragic. Snape could not let go of his one true love, and it was this love that made him risk his life on countless occasions. It was a great way to wrap up the complex character of Severus Snape, who has to be one of my favourite characters in the series. It was such a nice touch that Harry's son was named after him as well. I would have liked a scene at the end where Harry could have had one conversation with a potrait of Snape at Hogwarts, and for them to talk about all the things that had never been discussed when Snape had been living, as he had put up this facade of indifference and hatred towards Harry.

What was the purpose of having Snape show Harry all of his memories of Lily? Here was the one thing that Snape obviously didn't want anybody to know about, and then he goes and shares it was Harry - and really for no purpose other than to show that he was on the side of good all along. But he was dying, so what difference did it make?
I think it made all the difference in the world to Harry. He needed to find out the truth about where Snape's loyalties were, and in showing all of the memories of himself and Lily, it just proved the point firmly. And the fact that Snape was dying was precisely why he didn't care about giving the information to Harry. He would never again have to face him.

He had not had a chance to bloom emotionally.

Its not that he didn't have a chance to bloom emotionally. He just didn't take it. Agreed that he had a bad experience at home, and that was good enough for him to dislike relationships, but then he had loads of opportunities to express his love to Lily but we don't see him doing that, he was always hesitant because he feared rejection...which is an alltogether different issue. So its not that he wasn't given ample opportunity, only he was hesitant to grab them.

I think it made all the difference in the world to Harry. He needed to find out the truth about where Snape's loyalties were, and in showing all of the memories of himself and Lily, it just proved the point firmly. And the fact that Snape was dying was precisely why he didn't care about giving the information to Harry. He would never again have to face him.

Nicely put, I agree with that. Those memories are vastly important, it shows why Dumbledore trusted him and its really to tell Harry about himself and this is why. People might think the love is unhealthy but don't we love those who are deceased anyway?

Snape I think is the most disturbing character in the story. Voldemort and Grindelwald are both horrible and evil, but Snape's character has a weird duality that just sticks out as serioulsy messed up. Though he is a grouchy, highly unpleasant person, the sole motivation of his whole life is his love and memory of Lily. He wanted to be a Death Eater and hung out with them, but was in love with a muggleborn. Even more disturbing is how even though he is capable of love he doesn't care about anyone else's life except Lily, as he was OK with James and Harry dying as long as Lily was ok, and later told Dumbledore as he summoned the doe that he wasn't doing it for Harry but for his memory of Lily.
Him crying over Lily's letter in Sirius's room was...really sad and pitiful. But the weird thing about that is that he kept only one page of the letter, and tore off half the photo.

And for why Snape gave Harry even his personal memories: besides explanations mentioned here of course there is the technical reason: it lets us know the whole interesting backstory!

Quote:



Belgarath2, re Lily being judgemental, isn't the point not that she didn't forgive him for calling her Mudblood when he was under pressure, but that she couldn't forgive him for calling everybody else of muggle parentage "mudblood"?


I agree with this, especially as the series of memories shows it has been an ongoing problem. Two memories earlier, Harry sees Snape not listening when Lily tries to tell him about why she thinks one of his 'friends' is evil. The Worst Memory WAS the final breaking point, but the way the memories are shown, it could have been another incident that did it, if Lily had let it go. There was a pattern of behavior there that she did not approve of, and had tried to make her feelings known.

I think that the reason Snape was not really paying attention to her when she talked about his friends' being evil is because he was so happy that Lily had insulted James the second before. Snape was so crazy for Lily that his mind focused on what she had said about disliking James; maybe it gave Snape hope that she might like him. I don't think he purposely ignored her because he felt she was wrong about his friends' being evil. While Snape may have always had a leaning toward Dark Magic, perhaps his losing Lily to James solidified it.

After reading the part in OOTP with Snape and James, I knew that Snape had loved or did love Lily. I didn't know what part his would play until Rowling mentioned something about Harry's eye playing a role in the 7th book. But I didn't think that they would have been as close as they were, however. I thought Snape maybe loved Lily from afar but knowing that they were best friends is what suprised me.

Nicely put, I agree with that. Those memories are vastly important, it shows why Dumbledore trusted him and its really to tell Harry about himself and this is why. People might think the love is unhealthy but don't we love those who are deceased anyway?


But that love prevented Snape from moving on and left him with a deep sense of guilt after he reveals the contents of the Prophecy to Voldemort. It's different to love a dead person who is, for example, a relative or friend. It's another to love a married woman who never reciprocated your feelings.

Just my way of seeing it of course.

I'm sorry but you seem to be implying that only love that is returned is real love and that because James married Lily his love was more real than Snape's.
The power of Snape's (or anyones) love is not determined by whether or not it is requited, or whether or not you marry the one you love.

I agree.His love was not less then James.I wish we knew more about James feelings.For some reason they come off to me a superficial.

you know, I remeber that when thay were filming POA (a loooong time ago) Jo said something about Cuaron having put in the movie something that would remind of future books. I wonder, what if it was Snape shielding Harry from Lupin-Werewolf with arms outstretched? It reminds me a lot of Lily protecting baby Harry from Voldie

Ah, tragic, unrequited love. How much we love it.

This whole relationship reminds me a bit of the Phantom of the Opera.:p

But anyways, I like to classify Snape's love as "unhealthy". Why? Well, he didn't move on after Lily married, had a son, and was later dead. That's not very healthy, is it? But it's still beautifully poignant and demonstrates how deep his feelings went.

I don't think Lily ever showed she liked him back during the chapter. If Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor, I'm not sure things would have been as happy. When Lily and Sevvy get on the train and go to the compartment with James and Sirius, it seems the latter two already had pinpointed Snape for their childish bullying after Snape makes an insult to Gryffindor.

And Snape was no angel either, I'm sure. Remember that he was the originator of Sectumsempra?

Which just shows how Jo realistically portrayed all the characters. Everyone's got more than one flaw, but they also have redeeming qualities in them.

Again, I really feel the need to emphasize that I don't think Rowling meant for people to think that Snape loved Lily in a physical way as though hoping they would be married. I don't think that he had obsessed love exactly, but rather was just very attached to her because she was all he had. Think of it this way, Ron and Harry are very much like that. Harry latched onto Ron immediately because he knew about magic and introduced him to everything, much like Severus introduced Lily to everything. Ron and Harry met Draco and both didn't like Draco's superior attitude, just like Severus and Lily didn't like the attitude of James and later Sirius. I can imagine just as Harry was influenced to think Gryffindor has the better crowd by Hagrid and Ron, Severus was influenced by his mother and by meeting James and Sirius that Gryffindor has a bunch of jerks and Slytherin must be better. Just as Harry said, "Not Slytherin," to the hat, Severus probably said, "Not Gryffindor" and ended up in Slytherin. But where exactly did the Sorting Hat really want to send him? And if he really had some sort of obsessive love for Lily, I would think he would have said, "I want to be where Lily Evans is." But he didn't.

I think Lily and Severus were very much attached as close friends because they felt they needed each other, but it wasn't until their fourth or fifth years that Lily started making a name for herself and no longer needed Severus. She had her Gryffindor friends who were girls and Severus had his Slytherin so-called "friends" who only showed him interest and valued him because they saw some talent there that would be useful to them. Severus misjudged the Slytherin crowd and Lily didn't stick with him so he just sort of fell into a bad situation. His situation was really a product of lack of support. Harry has always had plenty, and that separates Severus from Harry. As Harry puts it, they were the three abandoned boys, but Harry because he was forced into it, Voldemort because he was literally abandoned, and Severus because he had nobody who really cared about him. Voldemort resented people and became angry, Severus felt weakened and unloved, and Harry simply felt unfortunate about his situation but determined to get through it because he couldn't change it. They all had a way of handling things. What turned the tide for Snape from changing into Voldemort was that he hung on to his memory of Lily as the friend who really cared for him, and he never became angry with her because he knew deep down that the reason she turned from him was a good reason, and he regrets that.

For some reason they come off to me a superficial.
James' love was in no way superficial. He changed and Lily saw that and they fell in love with each other and James eventually died trying to protect his wife. I don't see much of a superficial nature there.

I think it made all the difference in the world to Harry. He needed to find out the truth about where Snape's loyalties were, and in showing all of the memories of himself and Lily, it just proved the point firmly. And the fact that Snape was dying was precisely why he didn't care about giving the information to Harry. He would never again have to face him.Snape needed to tell Harry that his and Voldemort's souls were bound to one another.

However, I think that at the end of his life, Snape wanted Harry to know him and he gave Harry the gift of Lily.

you know, I remeber that when thay were filming POA (a loooong time ago) Jo said something about Cuaron having put in the movie something that would remind of future books. I wonder, what if it was Snape shielding Harry from Lupin-Werewolf with arms outstretched? It reminds me a lot of Lily protecting baby Harry from Voldie
Wow! You could be right!

Though, I always thought it was Lupin's little heart to heart with Harry about his mother that was what surprised JKR. Maybe it was more than one thing.

I think it made all the difference in the world to Harry. He needed to find out the truth about where Snape's loyalties were, and in showing all of the memories of himself and Lily, it just proved the point firmly. And the fact that Snape was dying was precisely why he didn't care about giving the information to Harry. He would never again have to face him.That's just it though, Harry didn't need to know anything about Snape's loyalties - he needed to know that he was destined to die in order to save everyone else - and this was FAR too important to be left for this long. What were the odds that Harry was going to be around to get these memories from Snape? Nobody let Harry in on the fact that Snape was good, so there would be no reason to trust Snape while he was still alive, and very little chance he would be around to collect his thoughts while they spilled out of his neck...

This whole thing was very poorly planned considering how important all of it was to the success of taking down Voldemort.

However, I think that at the end of his life, Snape wanted Harry to know him and he gave Harry the gift of Lily.

Actually I think Snape wanted Harry to know his real self, he didn't want him to be under the false impression that he was bad...he wanted his name to be cleared and most of all Harry to know the truth about him loving his mother.

James' love was in no way superficial. He changed and Lily saw that and they fell in love with each other and James eventually died trying to protect his wife. I don't see much of a superficial nature there.

I don't doubt that he changed later,he must of because I doubt Lily would have returned his feelings if he had stayed the same.I'm not sure what it is,I it's maybe becasue he didnt (for a long time) seem to want to change(his arrogance,his treatement of snape and other students).I just believe that his feelings became more concrete towards the end of their school days.

This thread is not about James Potter. Let's steer the conversation back to Lily/Snape please.

I think lily continued to associate with snape because she knew what he was getting into and was trying to stop it while she still could and if she would have just stopped talking to him he probably would have turned immediately so she kinda stalled it i guess and also kind of gave him reason to want to be good.

The gryffindors and slytherins most likely despised the relationship because like it said in the book lily's friends always questioned why she was friends with snape and im sure the slytherins, in particular his death eater friends didn't appreciate him associating with a gryffindor.

I thought it was terrible when snape called lily a mudblood because she was always kind to him and i dont think it ever mentioned her refering to him as a death eater..personally i dont think he had any excuse to call her a mudblood but it kind of shows at that point that he was definately changing.

Some really good points have been made before this. I agree with most of them. The third book foreshadows the last one a lot. With the Dark Lord in the shack Severus asked him to let him (Severus) bring Potter to him. I believe that if he was able to that Severus would have worked with Harry to overcome the Dark Lord. In a way the werewolf scene in PoA forshadows Severus dying for the right side. When the trio stun him and Severus is forced back to the floor unconcsious forshadows his death in the same shack later in Deathly Hallows. His thoughts were for Harry and possibly his protection. He luved Lily truly and deeply enough to want to protect Harry. Because Harry is her son, should have been his not James', and had her eyes. That constant reminder of Lily gazing at him every day kept the memories of Lily constant within his heart and mind. Severus was not obsessed with her. After all Ms. Rowling revealed that they were friends before Hogwarts. Why would he need to be obsessed with her? But, the Dark Arts drove a wedge between the two. I wonder if Severus were not obsessed with the Dark Magick would there have been a chance for more between the two ?

Its not that he didn't have a chance to bloom emotionally. He just didn't take it. Agreed that he had a bad experience at home, and that was good enough for him to dislike relationships, but then he had loads of opportunities to express his love to Lily but we don't see him doing that, he was always hesitant because he feared rejection...which is an alltogether different issue. So its not that he wasn't given ample opportunity, only he was hesitant to grab them.
What I meant was that he hadn't had time to grow emotionally before he met Lily. All the language about Snape talks about him being stringy and neglected and in SWM Harry thinks he looks like a plant that hasn't had enough light or something like that. My thoughts were that he had been starved of love and was therefore emotionally stunted. But I think I agree with you. He didn't seem to take the offered opportunities. Although if they were best friends Snape would have a lot to loose by telling her he loved her. If you think of Ron and Hermione, Ron has hardly been forthcoming about his feelings for Hermione. Funnily enough his reaction to Krum was similar to Sev's reaction to James :err:

For me, the whole DD trusting Snape just based on this deep obsession for Harry's mother was a bit of a stretch. I understand Snape loved Lily - to a point of unhealthy psycotic obsession it seems, but since he loathed James and considered Harry so much like his father, I think it seems like a lot to ask the reader to believe that a person would put so much trust, absolute trust in fact, in someone so unbalanced.
I love the character of Snape and have for some time - his complexity and all - but it seems to do him an injustice that this "love" was the all consuming force that kept him under DD's complete control all these years, especially when we read as he produces the patronous for DD that he still didn't have a single caring bone for Harry.

What struck me most about the Snape/Lily friendship was how similar it seemed, in many ways, to the Trio's friendship. Everyone always assumes Lily was a wildly popular student, but we forget that she was muggle-born and was probably an outsider, if not an outcast, with Snape in the first few years at Hogwarts.

The memory on the Hogwarts express reminded me of Harry's first train ride, also: James and Sirius reminded of Draco from PS/SS (obviously they're not that evil, but still) Snape and Lily were probably the Harrys, Hermiones, Lunas, and Nevilles of Hogwarts in their day.

For me, the whole DD trusting Snape just based on this deep obsession for Harry's mother was a bit of a stretch. I understand Snape loved Lily - to a point of unhealthy psycotic obsession it seems, but since he loathed James and considered Harry so much like his father, I think it seems like a lot to ask the reader to believe that a person would put so much trust, absolute trust in fact, in someone so unbalanced.

Why would you consider Snape´s love for Lily to be unhealthy or even psychotic?? Could you elaborate?

Although if they were best friends Snape would have a lot to loose by telling her he loved her.

Exactly. He feared rejection and hence loosing the friendship. Whats escapes me is why Lily never tried to confront Snape. I mean it would have been obvious that he loved her, or was she ignorant of this fact?

Let's keep this on Snape AND Lily - Snape himself can be discussed here: Severus Snape: Character Analysis. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108022)

Just the image of the scrawny waif-child Snape covertly watching Lily flying into the air...(sigh and sob) Lily must have been a charmer and the fact she was muggle-born in a wizarding world was a source of great insecurity to her. I think when Snape called her "mudblood" that it was the major betrayal on his part and he knew it. Lily sought security and acceptance with James - who would never make her feel like an outsider as he was obviously brought up in a family who welcomed everybody regardless (they were Sirius' refuge too) Lily like her sister Petunia was the sort to cleave to her husband. She couldn't have done that with Severus as his dark art Slytherin ways were to exclusive (and rather horrible) Poor Snape. I really think he's a wonderful character.

I predicted that the Evans sisters grew up near Snape and that he and Lily were pre-Hogwarts friends. I thought the Snape storyline was handled very well though I agree with those who wrote that Lily would not have been pleased about how Snape treated her son.

That's just it though, Harry didn't need to know anything about Snape's loyalties - he needed to know that he was destined to die in order to save everyone else - and this was FAR too important to be left for this long. What were the odds that Harry was going to be around to get these memories from Snape? Nobody let Harry in on the fact that Snape was good, so there would be no reason to trust Snape while he was still alive, and very little chance he would be around to collect his thoughts while they spilled out of his neck...

This whole thing was very poorly planned considering how important all of it was to the success of taking down Voldemort.Dumbledore told Snape not to inform Harry about the connection with Voldemort until Voldemort became very protective of Nagini - in other words, until Voldemort knew that Harry was hunting Horcruxes. Voldemort learned Harry was hunting Horcruxes the day that the Battle of Hogwarts begins, possibly within mere hours of the battle beginning. Snape kept asking Voldemort to let him go back to the battlefield to find Harry, meanwhile he seems transfixed by the protective bubble around Nagini. Snape knows that the time has come for him to tell Harry what Dumbledore wanted him to know. Unfortunately, Snape has no chance to find Harry. However, he raises his wand against Voldemort and tries desperately to staunch the bleeding from his neck after he has been bitten by Nagini. Only after Harry goes to him does he stop trying to live. I think he was only trying to live long enough to get the information to Harry ... and to see her eyes one last time.

What was the purpose of having Snape show Harry all of his memories of Lily? Here was the one thing that Snape obviously didn't want anybody to know about, and then he goes and shares it was Harry - and really for no purpose other than to show that he was on the side of good all along. But he was dying, so what difference did it make?

What difference did it make whether the son of the women he loved knew that he wasn't evil? I'm sure that meant a lot to Snape. He had to go through his entire life doing everything for everybody else (Lily, Dumbledore, Harry, Voldemort) and never doing anything for himself. Then he went through the last year of his life having everybody he could have ever cared about believing him a traitor who killed the only person who ever tried to help him. I'm sure that Harry finally understanding that he was a good person, and finally knowing why he did everything he did, would have meant a lot to Snape.

I suppose if you want to be blatantly logical about it, he did need Harry to trust him, or he wouldn't have believed that he was really a Horcrux, would he?

Why would you consider Snape´s love for Lily to be unhealthy or even psychotic?? Could you elaborate?

Um, he's loved the same person unrequitedly for his whole life....A normal person would have moved on, and assimilated themselves into another niche (found someone else). Not only that, his "love" has a disturbing tunnel quality to it, where he separates out anything related to Lily. He took only one page out of two of the letter and tore the photograph in two so he would only have Lily's portion. And of course he was alright with Voldemort killing Harry and James as long as he let Lily go. A normal person, if they loved somebody yet could not be near them, would try to care for people who surround the beloved. It's commonly heard as "whatever makes you happy, makes me happy."
The more I think about it, the more disturbing Snape's character seems to me.

Also, as we see Lily as a child, you could see what might have brought James and Lily together: Lily seemed fearless, blunt, playful and laid back. Like how it said that when she and Snape were taking as children under the trees, she laid down on the grass, not really paying attention to what Snape was saying.

I got the impression that Harry needed to see those memories of Lily and Snape to actually believe that Snape was working for the good guys. If Snape had just shown me a memory of a conversation which said I needed to die, I don't think I'd be that eager to believe him; given that Harry's believed he's evil for seven years. Seeing those memories made Harry truly understand Snape and believe that what had to happen was his death.

Um, he's loved the same person unrequitedly for his whole life....A normal person would have moved on, and assimilated themselves into another niche (found someone else). Not only that, his "love" has a disturbing tunnel quality to it, where he separates out anything related to Lily. He took only one page out of two of the letter and tore the photograph in two so he would only have Lily's portion. And of course he was alright with Voldemort killing Harry and James as long as he let Lily go. A normal person, if they loved somebody yet could not be near them, would try to care for people who surround the beloved. It's commonly heard as "whatever makes you happy, makes me happy."
The more I think about it, the more disturbing Snape's character seems to me.

Some people only love once in their life. When Snape comes to Dumbledore he is a desperate man but he does transform from that night on and makes a change for the better that goes beyond just Lily IMO.

Um, he's loved the same person unrequitedly for his whole life....
Actually, I think they are a few "normal" people who wouldt just have moved on, especially after the person died and felt guilty for that death. In addition, we have the former enemy as the husband and the child as a current reminder for Snape. Also, because he started working at Hogwarts shortly after school, he didn´t really have time to mature.



Not only that, his "love" has a disturbing tunnel quality to it, where he separates out anything related to Lily. He took only one page out of two of the letter and tore the photograph in two so he would only have Lily's portion.

Doesn´t love tend to give you a tunnel quality? :p No, honestly: Snape is a deeply flawed man, we know that. But his love is eternal and honest. (ok, that does sound like a fan fiction...)


And of course he was alright with Voldemort killing Harry and James as long as he let Lily go.
That was terrible, no doubt but he was terrified and desperate. He changed.


A normal person, if they loved somebody yet could not be near them, would try to care for people who surround the beloved. It's commonly heard as "whatever makes you happy, makes me happy."
In theory. I think when it comes to love we have all been blind or selfish once or twice. Or is it just me?! :whistle:

That chapter was the most beautiful chapter I've ever read. Honestly, I always knew Snape was good and that chapter made me fall in love with him even more! I was SOBBING. Especially when he showed Dumbledore his Patronus (the doe!!!) and dumbledore asked, "all this time?" and snape says "always". aww!!! And then that scene when Snape was crying while reading Lily's letter just broke my heart.


That chapter was probably one of my favorites because it we actually saw emotion from Snape. I got really misty eyed when I read that. I was able to understand why Snape wanted to look into Harry's eyes one last time too. :(

I don't know if it was mentioned before but we knew from HBP that Lily was really good at Potions. Since Snape was the Potions professor for so many years, I now sense that there might have been some disappointment that Harry wasn't like his mom in that respect.

Um, he's loved the same person unrequitedly for his whole life....A normal person would have moved on, and assimilated themselves into another niche (found someone else).Snape represents an ideal love, though. It's not so much that Snape should have moved on to find love with another, but his not doing that is his penance for having caused Lily's death. It's really more of a literary ideal than a realistic idea. Not only that, his "love" has a disturbing tunnel quality to it, where he separates out anything related to Lily. He took only one page out of two of the letter and tore the photograph in two so he would only have Lily's portion. And of course he was alright with Voldemort killing Harry and James as long as he let Lily go. A normal person, if they loved somebody yet could not be near them, would try to care for people who surround the beloved. It's commonly heard as "whatever makes you happy, makes me happy."In the beginning Snape was too immature for that. Being a young man, he saw only that he wanted to save what was very dear to him. However, Dumbledore teaches Snape that, although Lily is dead, Snape can honor her by continuing to protect her son. Later, in the present time, Snape has moved to the point of protecting everyone - he only watches die those who he cannot save. In those memories we see a gradual transformation of his character to full maturity and a more enlightened view. He is truly transformed by his love for Lily.

I sort of had a laugh when Snape's feelings for Lily was revealed...I think I knew, and probably everyone of us knew it somewhere deep inside but it took the memories from Snape for the world to cry in unison "Oooh I see!" I was completely awe struck but all the same very unsurprised! Put the little pieces together...Snape loathed James and all who were close to Lily...Petunia even said something about "That awful boy" in reference to who her sister hung out with, but as to whom the awful boy was was never said, but really who else could it be? It arouses within me a huge amount of sorrow for Snape... he wasn't so heartless after all! Through all the chaos that Snape presented in the story he was tethered to helping others because he had such immense love for Lily. It makes him suddenly very ... normal!

You know I liked the idea that he knew Lilly before Hogwarts, in fact that was the best and only possible reason of knowing each other. They could never have met at school with him being a Slytherin. By the way, Snape would have joined the Death Eaters either way. Unless he got real friends. Could you imagine if he ended up in Ravenclaw instead? But that is another discussion for another thread

Originally Posted by gonga
Um, he's loved the same person unrequitedly for his whole life....A normal person would have moved on, and assimilated themselves into another niche (found someone else). Not only that, his "love" has a disturbing tunnel quality to it, where he separates out anything related to Lily. He took only one page out of two of the letter and tore the photograph in two so he would only have Lily's portion. And of course he was alright with Voldemort killing Harry and James as long as he let Lily go. A normal person, if they loved somebody yet could not be near them, would try to care for people who surround the beloved. It's commonly heard as "whatever makes you happy, makes me happy."
The more I think about it, the more disturbing Snape's character seems to me.
i guess the whole snape-loving-lily thing was only for the kind of people that believe in things like "love at first sight" "we were destined to be together"
romanticists.
as for me, i thought the memories in the pensieve were sweet.

Um, he's loved the same person unrequitedly for his whole life....A normal person would have moved on, and assimilated themselves into another niche (found someone else)
Many people never quite get over their first crush. Snape is an extreme example of that.Not only that, his "love" has a disturbing tunnel quality to it, where he separates out anything related to Lily. He took only one page out of two of the letter and tore the photograph in two so he would only have Lily's portion.
He was madly in love with her. Love makes people do strange and often frowned upon things.

Snape IS a bit of a disturbing man, but he is more of a sad man than anything :(
Also, as we see Lily as a child, you could see what might have brought James and Lily together: Lily seemed fearless, blunt, playful and laid back. Like how it said that when she and Snape were taking as children under the trees, she laid down on the grass, not really paying attention to what Snape was saying.
She hardly ignored him. She was so curious about the wizarding world and Snape told her everything. Remember when she told Snape to tell her about the Dementor's again?

I still don't get why "Snape's worst memory" was, in fact, his worst memory. Pre-DH, not knowing of his feelings for her, I assumed that, having lived through the first war, surely he'd seen something worse. Now, post-DH, I would think that his worst memory would be finding out that she had been killed. I was obviously wrong before and am still wrong. :shrug:

I thought something quite similar, Rap. I think the reason that scene by the beech tree is considered his worst memory is because it marked the end of their friendship (from her perspective) and the hopes for the rest of his life (from his).

I don't think his attachment to her was a healthy one when she was alive, but it grew into something like a canker after her death. He was jealous, possessive and manipulative toward her from their earliest meeting. Men like that don't make good life partners. Speaking purely from a mom's point of view, I would have warned my own daughter away from such a man. Had they married by some freak chance, and Lily had offended him of disappointed him in some way, there's a good chance he would have treated her as badly as he treated Harry and Neville. Kind of like marrying your jailer.

For me, the whole DD trusting Snape just based on this deep obsession for Harry's mother was a bit of a stretch....I think it seems like a lot to ask the reader to believe that a person would put so much trust, absolute trust in fact, in someone so unbalanced.

But Dumbledore believed in the power of love above all else, and Snape obviously wanted to redeem himself. I think, more than anything, he felt guilty about Lily's death and felt that protecting Harry was his only way of making up for it. It's obvious that he did protect Harry, right from the beginning (I should say it's obvious now, looking back on it). So, even though maybe most people wouldn't have trusted him so completely, Dumbledore naturally would have.

I loved Snape since the first book, and I kind of assumed that Snape loved Lily since they called the chapter in OOTP "Snape's Worst Memory". Why would that be his worst memory [it's not like the rest of his life was perfect] if it was just him hanging upside down? I assumed there was more to it than that, and the only other explanation I could think of was he lost his friendship or chance of anything with Lily in that memory when he called her a mudblood.

Also, JK Rowling said that two big revelations that are connected will be made about Lily in books 5 and 7. Since that's really the most Lily was mentioned in book 5, then that scene must have shown some importance. And I guess I just thought that it was that Snape loved her.

I also kind of knew that they must be friends before Hogwarts because when Petunia was remembering what dementors were and said that she overheard her [Lily] talking to that "awful boy" about them. And I didn't think she'd call James that "awful boy" because although he is a wizard, he is charming and I thought it was Snape.

One of my complaints though is that there should have been a portrait of Snape with the headmasters right next to Dumbledore and he should have shed a tear a the end too when they were all cheering. But there was some closure with "Look...at...me..." and Albus Severus and the "bravest man" line.

I was never one to truly believe in the Snape/Lily relationship. Whenever people discussed it or mentioned it, I turned my back thinking NO WAY. But after reading DH, I truly realized that that was really the only reason Snape kept Harry alive.

He loved Lily so much, that even when she married someone else and had a son, he refused to stop loving her. He took care of Harry because he was a product of Lily--and he maintained the green color of her eyes.

I really didn't see this relationship coming, and it may be why I'm so enthralled with it now. Even though they were just good friends (in Lily's mind), it never occurred to me that this was the reason Snape protected Harry.

I guess it all really comes down to love, afterall.

Purplehawk, I agree that Snape would definitely not make a good lifetime partner. But I think that's part of the point. First, Lily never even seemed to realize that her best friend was madly in love with her, which made her very naive. Yet, if she had noticed his mad infatuation, she would have been beyond frightened. He not only followed her around, but hung on her every word. There's a difference between mad love and, for lack of a better phrase, creepy love. He attempts to understand love, but for all of his attempts to impress the woman he loves, he only distances himself from her. He doesn't realize that power, manipulation of magic and holding dominance over people and things is frightening, not beautiful or attractive. Snape, by being in love with Lily, seems to be attempting to join two worlds: the innocent and the evil. Sadly for Snape, he never noticed it and was lost in his own sorrows.

I was very pleased to see that Snape did indeed love Lily, since I thought it would make him human - rather like how Dumbledore making a mistake would make him human. Most of all, I was deeply touched how Snape asks Harry to look into his eyes as he dies; he wanted to see Lily's eyes as he died.

But Dumbledore believed in the power of love above all else, and Snape obviously wanted to redeem himself. I think, more than anything, he felt guilty about Lily's death and felt that protecting Harry was his only way of making up for it. It's obvious that he did protect Harry, right from the beginning (I should say it's obvious now, looking back on it). So, even though maybe most people wouldn't have trusted him so completely, Dumbledore naturally would have.

I agree. Dumbledore understands the power of pure and devoted love that will not end.

The whole Snape/Lily thing also explains why Snape despised Sirius so much in GOF and how at the end he really wanted Sirius to get the dementors kiss. It was because Snape thought that Sirius was the one that deceived the Potters - deceived Lily.

Again, I really feel the need to emphasize that I don't think Rowling meant for people to think that Snape loved Lily in a physical way as though hoping they would be married. I don't think that he had obsessed love exactly, but rather was just very attached to her because she was all he had. Think of it this way, Ron and Harry are very much like that. Harry latched onto Ron immediately because he knew about magic and introduced him to everything, much like Severus introduced Lily to everything. Ron and Harry met Draco and both didn't like Draco's superior attitude, just like Severus and Lily didn't like the attitude of James and later Sirius. I can imagine just as Harry was influenced to think Gryffindor has the better crowd by Hagrid and Ron, Severus was influenced by his mother and by meeting James and Sirius that Gryffindor has a bunch of jerks and Slytherin must be better. Just as Harry said, "Not Slytherin," to the hat, Severus probably said, "Not Gryffindor" and ended up in Slytherin. But where exactly did the Sorting Hat really want to send him? And if he really had some sort of obsessive love for Lily, I would think he would have said, "I want to be where Lily Evans is." But he didn't.

I think Lily and Severus were very much attached as close friends because they felt they needed each other, but it wasn't until their fourth or fifth years that Lily started making a name for herself and no longer needed Severus. She had her Gryffindor friends who were girls and Severus had his Slytherin so-called "friends" who only showed him interest and valued him because they saw some talent there that would be useful to them. Severus misjudged the Slytherin crowd and Lily didn't stick with him so he just sort of fell into a bad situation. His situation was really a product of lack of support. Harry has always had plenty, and that separates Severus from Harry. As Harry puts it, they were the three abandoned boys, but Harry because he was forced into it, Voldemort because he was literally abandoned, and Severus because he had nobody who really cared about him. Voldemort resented people and became angry, Severus felt weakened and unloved, and Harry simply felt unfortunate about his situation but determined to get through it because he couldn't change it. They all had a way of handling things. What turned the tide for Snape from changing into Voldemort was that he hung on to his memory of Lily as the friend who really cared for him, and he never became angry with her because he knew deep down that the reason she turned from him was a good reason, and he regrets that.

I never really thought of Severus and Lily as the kind of relationship Ron and Harry had during the beginning. It does make sense though. They did need each other and I forgot that being a Mudblood back in the day when Voldemort was just rising wasn't safe. Its just unfortunate Severus couldn't change while Lily did. I don't think he would of tried to make the relationship more, I think he try to preserve the friendship if it would of lasted beyond his worst memory. Also the three main orphans are all similar but all so different....

When Dumbledore said to Snape that maybe they sort too soon...because Snape was being so brave, I actually thought that Snape could've been sorted into Gryffindor, but he chose Slytherin...kind of a reverse on what happened to Harry when he chose Gryffindor
I thought that chapter was great I never expected Snape to be so in love with Lily

Why would you consider Snape´s love for Lily to be unhealthy or even psychotic?? Could you elaborate?

I think gonga explained the point I was trying to make perfectly. To add to that, as far as Snape changing and becoming a better person for it as many seem to suggest, I would have to say where's the proof? Afterall, when DD straight out asks Snape if he has developed a caring for Harry, Snape's reply is in the form of a shout "for him?" and then the production of the patronous showing us that he doesn't now, nor has he ever given any caring emotion towards Harry and it is only that deep obsession with his mother that is keeping him protecting the child.
So again I just think it seems like a stretch to hang your hopes of loyalty on that of a man who is so deeply obsessed with someone and could, as we saw, care less for any other person around himself or connected to this love of his life.

Or maybe I just think it belittle's a man I thought so complex and as someone who truly changed and I was just a little let down by the thought that not only did he not change at all (seemed like he could take-it-or-leave-it as far as the dark arts) but he didn't have a caring bone in his body for anyone but himself and a very selfish/obessive love that included no one but that object of his affection while the idea of her husband and child dying meant nothing to him - all Lily and only Lily and nothing or no one else mattered.
It's like that whole looking into Lily's eyes as he died thing - he couldn't care less of the child behind those eyes, he only saw Lily's eyes, not Harry's ya know.

To add to that, as far as Snape changing and becoming a better person for it as many seem to suggest, I would have to say where's the proof?
Dumbledore opened his eyes. Snape looked horrified.

'You have kept him alive so that he can die at the right moment?'

'Don't be shocked, Severus. How many men and women have you watched die?

'Lately, only those whom I could not save,' said Snape.Would Snape have had that same mindset when he first approached Dumbledore? I think not, as Snape himself implies... "Lately..."

I think gonga explained the point I was trying to make perfectly. To add to that, as far as Snape changing and becoming a better person for it as many seem to suggest, I would have to say where's the proof? Afterall, when DD straight out asks Snape if he has developed a caring for Harry, Snape's reply is in the form of a shout "for him?" and then the production of the patronous showing us that he doesn't now, nor has he ever given any caring emotion towards Harry and it is only that deep obsession with his mother that is keeping him protecting the child.
So again I just think it seems like a stretch to hang your hopes of loyalty on that of a man who is so deeply obsessed with someone and could, as we saw, care less for any other person around himself or connected to this love of his life.

Or maybe I just think it belittle's a man I thought so complex and as someone who truly changed and I was just a little let down by the thought that not only did he not change at all (seemed like he could take-it-or-leave-it as far as the dark arts) but he didn't have a caring bone in his body for anyone but himself and a very selfish/obessive love that included no one but that object of his affection while the idea of her husband and child dying meant nothing to him - all Lily and only Lily and nothing or no one else mattered.
It's like that whole looking into Lily's eyes as he died thing - he couldn't care less of the child behind those eyes, he only saw Lily's eyes, not Harry's ya know.
I disagree, I think that Lily was simply the only person Snape ever cared about, and I think he’s entitled to be a little selfish about protecting her. And remember when Snape was talking to Dumbledore about how Harry allegedly “had to die” and Snape said he did it all to save Lily’s son? I can’t get that scene out of my head. And in the end, yes he wanted to see Lily’s eyes again! Of course he did, that’s the love of his life and he’d dedicated his life to her. I don’t think it’s fair to accuse him of being a bad person for wanting to look into his love’s eyes as he died.

I have a question: Whose eyes were full of tears: Dumbledore's or Snape's?

I meant that whole scene. Snape clearly did not want Harry dead. The fact that he addressed Harry as Lily’s son just showed that some of his affection for Lily had been passed down, no matter how begrudgingly.

I have a question: Whose eyes were full of tears: Dumbledore's or Snape's?

I was just reading that part and wondering the same. I imagine Snape’s, it makes more sense.

And in the end, yes he wanted to see Lily’s eyes again! Of course he did, that’s the love of his life and he’d dedicated his life to her. I don’t think it’s fair to accuse him of being a bad person for wanting to look into his love’s eyes as he died.
I agree. To add, I think the actions of his life have earned him the right to look into Harry's eyes as he died. I invision that he didn't see Harry, but Lily as he drew his last breath and he deserved nothing less. :agree:

I feel awful for Snape because he has been used by both sides. His love for Lily kept him between the two sides - Dumbledore's and Voldemort's. But it also brought him into the center of the two sides, good and evil. By loving Lily, he will continue to be brave and human, yet he brought himself in too far with evil.

Furthermore, by bringing himself in too deep on both sides, he has become very easy to manipulate by Voldemort and Dumbledore. One of Snape's memories shows his indignance at being used by Dumbledore to murder him, and to protect Harry. Snape was horrified that he had been dragged through these years of mortal danger only to raise Harry like a pig for slaughter. He was naive enough to believe that all he had done for Dumbledore had been in Lily's name.

it's clear that Snape had no idea how vulnerable he was by being desperate. And as Snape died, he seemed not to know that even thought he was the most "loyal" servant to Voldemort, he was susceptible to being murdered. He was dispensible on both sides, and I'm not quite sure if that was entirely his fault.

Throughout the series, Snape remained my favorite character, and I had always hoped for and believed in the potential of his love for Lily to produce great courage and heroism. That being said, I was, like many other posters in this thread, stunned by the tremendous depth of his love for Lily.

Some posts have mentioned that Lily would certainly be disgusted with Snape's treatment of her son, and that, therefore, his attitude toward Harry was unjust. However, I think in addition to his hatred for James, doubts regarding Harry's talents/motives, and the necessity to treat Harry badly in order to mask his true intentions from fellow Slytherins/Death Eaters, it's important to remember that Snape feared Harry's portal into Voldemort's mind and the psychic connection they shared. He directly pronounces this fear in "The Prince's Tale". Basically, in order to protect Harry/himself/Dumbledore/Hogwarts, etc., he needed to be extremely cautious in regards to how much personal interaction or rapport he developed with Harry. If he became too "buddy-buddy" with the boy or showed much less than a cold and distant "hatred" for him, this might allow Voldemort to access Harry's mind and thereby make Snape more vulnerable. His treatment of Harry, to sum it up, had complex motives and reasons--but, though undesirable and often unfair, I think it's safe to assume his outward coldness best served the the broader reality of the situation.

Also, I wonder if Snape possibly gravitated towards the Dark Arts/Death Eaters to impress Lily? I know it sounds absurd, especially since she made her disdain for such practices very clear, but Snape appears to have begun his association with dark forces at the peak of his friendship with Lily. He obviously felt inferior to James in terms of appearance, social popularity, and athletic talents. Furthermore, he wanted to convince Lily that James was hardly "all that". Becoming a Death Eater would grant him some sort of respect and status within the wizarding world--even though among its most unsavory denizens--allowing Snape's abilities to flourish and gain recognition, giving him an appeal comparable to James' charisma. After all, in the "Prince's Tale" chapter, shortly after Lily calls James a "toerag", JKR indicates that Snape was so elated by her reaction he failed to hear Lily's grave concern for his dabbling in the Dark Arts. In other words, this young man, smitten and absolutely besotted with love, cared more that she disliked James and did not place any lingering affections for him over those she held for Severus. As long as he could effectively compete with James in Lily's eyes, at least in how he saw them, he could shrug off her well-founded worries and attend to his own plan. Unfortunately and tragically, the association he intended to better his prospects with Lily were increasingly alarming and despicable to her, ultimately severing the beautiful friendship they'd established. And it dragged him into a perilous struggle that would dominate the rest of his life.

A final sidenote: It's interesting to reflect in what ways Snape was a reluctant father figure to Lily's son. In COS, he was the one to teach the "Expelliarmus" (sp?) spell, which would become so crucial to Harry's survival; in OOTP, he was the one chosen to teach Harry Occlumency; and in HBP, his classes warned about the dangers of Inferi/etc. and Voldemort's usage thereof, foreshadowing the cave quest--to name only a few examples. I don't mean to over-state this role, but I think it's interesting to note how, maybe in some small way, Snape's love for Lily forced him to accept Potter as a surrogate son, one worthy of his protection beyond simply the promises he made to Dumbledore.

oh i just bawled when i realized the only reason snape looks into harrys eyes were because it looked so much like lily's. apart from that though, so it was HIS portrait on the wall at the end..wow. anyway I was always abig supporter of the 'snape loves lily' concept, but i never imagined how much back story we'd get on it, and how far it actually went. (also, i absolutley agree with the post above me in terms of snape subconciously agree-ing to be some sort of introverted and contradicting father-figure to harry.
i have a question though, the fact that his patronus turns into a white doe does that mean its the same patronus as lily's or is that a representation of lily herself? is it a white doe because james is a stag hence making her a doe? im a bit perplexed at that part.

it's clear that Snape had no idea how vulnerable he was by being desperate. And as Snape died, he seemed not to know that even thought he was the most "loyal" servant to Voldemort, he was susceptible to being murdered. He was dispensible on both sides, and I'm not quite sure if that was entirely his fault.

I agree. I think when DD informed him that Harry had to die, it seemed, at least to me, to kind of hit home that even DD considered things that Snape held as sacred as things to be used - he mentions this of course also when he straight up tells DD "you used me" or something to that affect. I thiought that in particular was very sad. That Snape, who must have always known that Voldemort was jsut using him for all he was worth, seemed to at least think that DD considered him something more and then it was like a slap in the face to find DD doing kind of the same thing to him.

Sorry, I jsut realized this is in the relationship thread and not in the Snape character thread... sorry to get off topic guys!

I think that Severus, while never gaining a completely healthy "emotional IQ," did become "good" beyond his lingering love for Lily. I see this not only in his continued faith in and loyalty to Dumbledore, despite the option to "check out" of the whole situation (he could have just left and not fulfilled his promises), but also in his statement, as others have mentioned, "Lately, only the ones I couldn't save [have I seen die]."

I think that in loving Lily, someone who showed him love (in friendship, although there were obviously romantic feelings on his part), and through his service to Dumbledore, he learned to value the lives of others, although he still treated most of them with contempt. I see this contempt as a personality flaw, immaturity or stunted emotional growth brought on by his formative years in a dysfunctional home, his status as an outcast, and his "friendships" with those who showed contempt for others as a daily part of their social existance. This is an explanation, but not an excuse. He could have chosen to become kinder to others, but I believe he kept his outer bitterness as emotional protection.

He continued to love Lily later in life for the door she opened for him to eventually be able to redeem himself. He sees that he might never have arrived at that place if it hadn't been for her friendship, and for her ending their friendship over matters of principle. I think his older self sees as much beauty in that part of her memory as he did in her eyes.

A final sidenote: It's interesting to reflect in what ways Snape was a reluctant father figure to Lily's son. In COS, he was the one to teach the "Expelliarmus" (sp?) spell, which would become so crucial to Harry's survival; in OOTP, he was the one chosen to teach Harry Occlumency; and in HBP, his classes warned about the dangers of Inferi/etc. and Voldemort's usage thereof, foreshadowing the cave quest--to name only a few examples. I don't mean to over-state this role, but I think it's interesting to note how, maybe in some small way, Snape's love for Lily forced him to accept Potter as a surrogate son, one worthy of his protection beyond simply the promises he made to Dumbledore.

I'm not sure I agree with the description of Snape as a surrogate father to Harry. He didn't teach Harry the expelliarmus spell. He demonstrated it in a dueling lesson and Harry just picked it up. He absolutely did not succeed in teaching Harry occlumency - Harry did that on his own, as well. In DADA, I also don't see Snape as teaching Harry anything Harry hadn't already learned - in the case of inferi, he learned it from Dumbledore on the way to meet Slughorn.

Now, on the other hand, Snape's marginal notes in the Advanced Potions book was another matter altogether. Harry did learn a lot from Snape there, far more than he ever learned in a class with the potions master.

Harry had a number of wizards who do qualify as surrogate fathers - Arthur Weasley, Sirius Black, Dumbledore, and, to a lesser extent, Remus Lupin - but Snape was anything but.

A surrogate father to the son of the woman he loved would have required something Snape couldn't give: tenderness, guidance, understanding, affection.

Snape’s Worst Memory? When is that scene supposed to take place? Fourth year, fifth? I don’t remember. What I do know is that makes four or five years of Snape carrying a torch for a blissfully ignorant Lily Potter. You think they were snogging away up in the Rookery at some point? Maybe Severus and Lily dancing at the Yule Ball? Think again.That’s four or five years of unrequited lust and sexual frustration for an already confused young Snape. Four or five years of Snape having to listen to Lily prattle on and on about what a jerk the James Potter is, I can’t believe everyone likes James Potter, did you see that goofy sweater James Potter was wearing today? What do you think of James Potter, Severus? I wonder what he thinks of me?

Snape is finally starting to grow up a little, finally starting to find some acceptance with the other Slytherin outcasts. So of course he adopts their mantra, as any teenager looking to fit in would. And in one moment of rage and humiliation, he lashes out at someone who has shown him nothing but casual indifference. Lily was being nice, wasn’t she? Standing up for Severus as he was cornered by four wand wielding thugs? But is that what Snape wanted? Is that what he had dreamed about for years, lying awake at nights in his cold dungeon bedchamber, wishing that Lily would pity him? I don’t think so. It was respect Snape wanted, not love or sex or anything that dramatic. He wanted Lily to see him as a friend, and ally, not some hanger on trying to leech off whatever affection he could get.

So after four or five years of taking that most painful of all abuse, silence, Snape snaps. And pays the price for it. ‘Sorry Severus, I know you’ve been my truest friend for all these years, but you made one mistake, so now I can drop you and go hang out with the cool kids’ And Lily runs off into the waiting arms of fanciable Seeker James Potter. For that of course was what Lily had been lying awake dreaming of in the Griffyndor girls dormitory, dating a letterman. Does that make Lily a bad person? No, it makes her a person. Does is make James a toerag? Kind of, but only because he’s never had to know hardship.

And that is what makes these books so fabulous. These are stories about people, plain and simple. They can cast fireballs and fly broomsticks and do heaven knows what else, but they are still people. Same hopes, same dreams, same nightmares. So is the revelation that Snape and Lily were close the surprise twist ending that everyone was hoping for? No. Is it the perfect way to end this wonderful series? Absolutely.

This is regarding whether Snape lost Lily after calling her Mudblood. I don't think so. The apology Snape gave must have been before the fith year ended. According to hp-lexicon master timeline, Sirius played his "joke" on Snape AFTER the OWL incident. We hear Lily and Severus talking about it in the memories. Lily says to him something like 'I heard that James Potter saved you' etc etc. So they were talking to each other AFTER the OWL incident. Snape and Lily were living in the same neighborhood, so it seems entirely possible that he convinced her about his feeling sorry over the summer.


That was two separate incidents. Sirius played the joke on Snape 3rd year, but I could be wrong. The Owl incident occurred near the end of 5th year,and personally, I don't think she ever spoke with him again after the "Mudblood" incident, because his next memories was the meeting with DD on the hilltop, and since Potions was one of his favourite subject (as well as hers) they might have been some memories in there of them happily mixing things in class. But there weren't, because she never spoke to him again.

For her, the incident was the last straw. It's like being a minority and growing up with someone who you know has some bigoted views, but you're best friends and you overlook it because you know the person was raised that way, may not know any better, and if they slip up and calls someone a racist epithet around you and apologizes, you might let it slide because yeah, it's bad, but it's not like they would do that to you because YOU ARE DIFFERENT.

Bu you remember that they said it. And you wonder.

Meanwhile, this friend is doing more and more things to make you angry, you have friends asking you "Why on earth are you Friends with this person?" and then comes a day when you rush to defend that person against others...and they thank you by calling you the same epithet that racist people use against others like you...and then you realize that, hey, you're not that special at all. And maybe, just maybe, that's how you felt about me all along.

That's why I don't think she ever forgave him. She even tells him when he tries to apologize to her "Why would you apologize? That's what you call other people like me. What makes me any different?"

It was the turning point for both of them, I think, because in 6th year he started calling himself "The Half Blood Prince" and in Seventh year she started going out with James.

I think he was very sorry he said it, from the moment the word crossed his lips. And he was even more sorry in future, seeing what it cost him. :(

I felt so bad for Snape. James was such a jerk. And now I dont think I can read about his character without disliking him. I mean not only did Snape lose his childhood friend and love to James but James also tormented him in the process. Even in the scene in OotP where Harry goes to Sirius & Lupin and asks about his father they both still act like Snape was somewhat deserving of what he got. Ugh.

Snape is one of my favorite characters ever in the HP series.

Someone in another thread said that with "Look... at... me" Snape also was asking Harry to look at him, look at his memories and his life, see who he really was and what his motivation was. I love that Snape saw Lily in Harry's eyes at that moment also. And I wonder if by identifying Harry with Lily, when he said "Look... at... me" Snape didn't also want Harry to see Snape's love for Lily, and in a way, to confess his love to Lily through her son, the love he never managed to show directly to her. Kind of like being confused, and daydreaming that it would be Lily looking into the Pensive, and seeing how much he suffered and loved her.

I believed in Snape and Lily after Snape went off in the Shack in PoA about how stupid James was for trusting Sirius, so I wasn't surprised. I was pleased that they became friends pre-Hogwarts; I'd always thought it was easier to see a Slyth/Gryff relationship beginning before Sorting.

It's amazing that Snape could put himself in so much danger for so long for a woman who died 16 years ago and, moreover, rejected him. What loyalty!

The thing that really got to me was how he came full circle and his love grew as time went on.

At first, you see this little boy who said it did not matter that she was muggleborn, something he obviously didn't mean 100%, so he was cleary smitten with her right then.

Then they become good friends, and he still has a crush on her. They get to hogwarts, and we are led to believe he had the choice of which house he would go to, but the ideals of Slytherin were more important to him, at that time. He is obvioulsy selfish, and not really "good."

He manages to stay friends with her, and the bad inside him grows as he is tormented by some of the mauraders. All this anger inside him causes him to call her mudblood, she doesn't forgive him, he eventually gives up, continues his path to being a DE.

I think the real moment he turned to Dumbledore is when it was essentially his fault that the love of his life died, he was still incredibly selfish.

I'd like to think he matured over time, and learned to be selfless, even if it was only for Lily. I also would like to think he really did deeply care for some other people as he grew up.

I keep thinking about all the times Harry saw Snape demanded eye contact and was "boring" into his eyes. Now I really wonder was Snape doing legilimency or was he just seeing Lily as much as he could to keep himself in check. And how many times did Harry meet Snape's eye- as much as he could stand it up until OOP.

The Occlumency sessions have a whole new meaning now don't they? Snape survived by Occlumency and denying his feelings just to get through his life as A spy and "witnessing" all those thing he had to see. Snape knew that Voldemort was going to make Harry's life hell in so many ways and Harry was going to be forced to Witness horrible things as well. Snape was trying to teach Harry block his mind just to survive- but Severus had to do it by looking straight into the eyes that caused him the most remorse.

No wonder he was not thrilled about teaching Harry Occlumency and why it was fiasco!

I find this to be a very interesting thought on the Occlumency lessons. I would imagine that looking into her eyes...not to mention possibly witnessing her death if he looked into Harry's memories far enough, could not have been easy for him at all.

I also must say that I had not thought about it, but the point that Snape's love for Lily got the whole ball rolling is pretty interesting. What we have to remember though is he told Voldemort of the prophecy first...then Voldemort made the decission to go after the Potters...then Snape freaked out. Had it not been for his love for Lily though, Harry would definitely not have made it through.

I wasn't suprised that Snape did end up loving Lily, but then when we viewed his memories, it suprised me. The relationship did not happen as I thought it had. I thought that Snape only saw Lily from a distance, and that they weren't as close as they were.

I loved how she revealed their relationship. It was so sad, and touching. Snape must've been crushed when he found out that his love had married his worst enemy

I'm really conflicted concerning how I feel about this.

It's not that I think the idea is abhorrent, since I'm guilty of reading fanficition where Snape is Harry's biological father, but I was so surprised that JKR actually had a Snape/Lily relationship in the books. It's almost as though she read some fanfiction and decided to go along with what was most popular among the fans! I wonder when she decided she was going to have this angle to the story - was it always there, or was it something she decided on towards the end of the series.

Personally, I like the idea because I feel it adds more depth to Snape. It explains why he hated Harry so much, and in my eyes earns him redemption. He didn't just hate James Potter because of bullying (which I suppose is reason enough, but to carry on the grudge to the kid?), but because James took what could have very well been his wife, had he not driven Lily away with the dark arts. It's seems clear that Lily didn't love James at least during the time around Snape's Worst Memory. I wonder if Snape feels regret every time he looks at Harry, who could have been his child. That would explain the depth of his hatred towards Harry - it could be self-hatred being misplaced.

But it makes me wonder, what changed so much that Lily went to James? I can understand her not sticking around with Snape because of the dark arts, but that doesn't mean she has to go to James specifically, and it seemed like she didn't respect him that much from Snape's Worst Memory. I wonder what was the catalyst that made her fall in love with him. And I wonder if he and the others ever knew about Snape's relationship with Lily.

It's amazing that Snape could put himself in so much danger for so long for a woman who died 16 years ago and, moreover, rejected him. What loyalty!
Exactly which is why I feel that the love Snape had for Lily was so much more deeper than an obsessive love.

Exactly which is why I feel that the love Snape had for Lily was so much more deeper than an obsessive love.

It was true, there’s no doubt in my mind. You simply do not dedicate your whole self to a person that you don’t love, especially not after they’ve betrayed you and died.

Im Sorry This Is Probably Wrong Section But I Cant Find A Thread About How Did James And Lily End Up Together And What Made Lily Changer Her Mind And My Thread Isn"t Approved For Some Reason So No One Can Answer My Questions. Would Somebody Help Me Find The Thread I"ve Already Tried The Search Option It Definitely Does Not Help Me.

Im Sorry This Is Probably Wrong Section But I Cant Find A Thread About How Did James And Lily End Up Together And What Made Lily Changer Her Mind And My Thread Isn"t Approved For Some Reason So No One Can Answer My Questions. Would Somebody Help Me Find The Thread I"ve Already Tried The Search Option It Definitely Does Not Help Me.
You should OWL a moderator or one of the aurors for help. Try Jessica, since she started this thread and tries to be helpful. I believe you can also discuss that topic in the Lily thread (or James thread) in the Legilimency Studies section. :)

It was true, there’s no doubt in my mind. You simply do not dedicate your whole self to a person that you don’t love, especially not after they’ve betrayed you and died.
I agree that it was absolute love, but I don't agree with your assessment that Lily "betrayed" Snape. She stuck up for him when no one would! The only reason she cut off their relationship was because he made his decision the second he called her a mudblood. Maybe it was an accident to him, and maybe he was truly sorry, but to her, it was the greatest insult, especially after all she did for him. It broke any trust she had in him, and it was something that symbolized who he was becoming. She didn't like that so she broke away to protect herself. I'm not sure I see that as betrayal.

It's not that I think the idea is abhorrent, since I'm guilty of reading fanficition where Snape is Harry's biological father, but I was so surprised that JKR actually had a Snape/Lily relationship in the books. It's almost as though she read some fanfiction and decided to go along with what was most popular among the fans! I wonder when she decided she was going to have this angle to the story - was it always there, or was it something she decided on towards the end of the series.
It's been there. In Harry's first potions lesson with Snape, the very first question Snape asks Harry is about asphodel and wormwood. If you look them up, you'll find that Asphodel is a plant in the Lily family which means "unending regret. " Wormwood is a bitter herb that means "my regret follows you to the grave." It is also representative of seperation and torment of love.

I saw this relationship a long time ago in fact as soon as I joined COS I was looking around at all the threads and saw one about Snape and Lily being friends and I fell in love with the idea.
anyways that chapter had me in tears I thought JK did a fantastic job with it I am very glad that it was a friendship and not just unrequited love because I don't really believed that anyone would put their life on the line for just a person they knew from afar well I thought Snape wouldn't anyway. Also the fact that they knew each other before Hogwarts seemed like a really good idea to me I really enjoyed the chapter even though it made it even harder to exept his death though I had known it was coming since he killed DD.

I agree that it was absolute love, but I don't agree with your assessment that Lily "betrayed" Snape. She stuck up for him when no one would! The only reason she cut off their relationship was because he made his decision the second he called her a mudblood. Maybe it was an accident to him, and maybe he was truly sorry, but to her, it was the greatest insult, especially after all she did for him. It broke any trust she had in him, and it was something that symbolized who he was becoming. She didn't like that so she broke away to protect herself. I'm not sure I see that as betrayal.

I didn’t mean that as the reader, as that’s what she actually did. I don’t mean to undermine Lily at all. That had to be a bit like what Snape felt, though, is all I meant. She was his best friend, not only that but he loved her, and she married a man that he hated. That had to feel a bit like a betrayal, probably a bit hypocritical to Snape, too, after she criticized his friends. Maybe it wasn’t so much to real adult Snape, but when it first happened it had to break his heart, no doubt it would have left me feeling a bit betrayed. I don’t think that’s really what Lily did at all, just that that’s how Snape must have felt.

It's been there. In Harry's first potions lesson with Snape, the very first question Snape asks Harry is about asphodel and wormwood. If you look them up, you'll find that Asphodel is a plant in the Lily family which means "unending regret. " Wormwood is a bitter herb that means "my regret follows you to the grave." It is also representative of seperation and torment of love.
Ah, good catch! But I'm not entirely convinced that from day one JKR absolutely knew that it was going to end up that way. I think some of it might have been coincidence, and things ended up just fitting into the plotline, so she went with it.

I didn’t mean that as the reader, as that’s what she actually did. I don’t mean to undermine Lily at all. That had to be a bit like what Snape felt, though, is all I meant. She was his best friend, not only that but he loved her, and she married a man that he hated. That had to feel a bit like a betrayal, probably a bit hypocritical to Snape, too, after she criticized his friends. Maybe it wasn’t so much to real adult Snape, but when it first happened it had to break his heart, no doubt it would have left me feeling a bit betrayed. I don’t think that’s really what Lily did at all, just that that’s how Snape must have felt.
Oh right, I see what you mean, sorry! That makes sense. :lol:

Oh right, I see what you mean, sorry! That makes sense. :lol:

Not a problem at all, I made a mistake in my wording.

It's been there. In Harry's first potions lesson with Snape, the very first question Snape asks Harry is about asphodel and wormwood. If you look them up, you'll find that Asphodel is a plant in the Lily family which means "unending regret. " Wormwood is a bitter herb that means "my regret follows you to the grave." It is also representative of seperation and torment of love.

I find that very touching! I wonder if she did that on purpose. I guess it would be too much of a coincidense otherwise.

It's almost as though she read some fanfiction and decided to go along with what was most popular among the fans!

I find it interesting that you said this. As I was reading through this book and theories from this board kept coming to fruition, I kept giggling to myself and thinking; It looks almost as though she came onto the forums, read the theories, chose the ones she liked and added them into the story. Just to clarify, I am not saying that is what I happened, I just found myselfing thinking it a few times and laughing.:err:

Quote:

It's not that I think the idea is abhorrent, since I'm guilty of reading fanficition where Snape is Harry's biological father, but I was so surprised that JKR actually had a Snape/Lily relationship in the books. It's almost as though she read some fanfiction and decided to go along with what was most popular among the fans! I wonder when she decided she was going to have this angle to the story - was it always there, or was it something she decided on towards the end of the series.
It's been there. In Harry's first potions lesson with Snape, the very first question Snape asks Harry is about asphodel and wormwood. If you look them up, you'll find that Asphodel is a plant in the Lily family which means "unending regret. " Wormwood is a bitter herb that means "my regret follows you to the grave." It is also representative of seperation and torment of love.
I believe now that the entire point of the mention of "Draught of the Living Dead" in Book One is all about Lily.

Asphodel is a member of the Lily family. The name means "scepter" in Greek, and it's the plant associated with the afterlife on the fields of valor. It was planted on the graves of heroes, so it is associated with death.

In addition to what Hagatha wrote, Wormwood is another name for the plant artemisia, which is the ingredient for the drink "absinthe." The color of the drink is a bright, emerald green - like Lily's eyes.

If you want to read poetry written over the centuries about Asphodel, see my Essay: Essence of Asphodel (http://www.thehpn.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3674.0).

~~~~~~~~~~

Edit: One other flower connection to Lily and Snape:

Harry and Hermione put a wreath of Christmas Roses on Lily's grave. The Christmas Rose is actually called "Hellebore," which is an ingredient of the Draught of Peace in OotP. Snape makes Harry read the ingredients off the board, and he has left out the Hellebore, or Christmas Rose.

It's interesting that Harry names his daughter Lily, and Hermione names her daughter Rose. :)

While I agree that Snape was extraordinary... I must disagree with the thoughts on Gryffindors as a whole. Just look at Harry... if he does not have bravery, I do not know who does.

In saying that I do not at all diminish the sacrifice that Severus has made. He is (as Harry says) on of the bravest men I know. I think; however, that the bravery is up to the man, not the house into which they are sorted.

Oops, never meant to imlply that Harry wasn't brave 'cause that'd be an ansolute joke. Just simply saying that I think typically both Gryffindors and Slytherins are capable of executing great courage, just different kinds. And of course they're are exceptions, 'cause things are never that simple. Anyway I'm starting to get off topic, oops.

Someone in another thread said that with "Look... at... me" Snape also was asking Harry to look at him, look at his memories and his life, see who he really was and what his motivation was. I love that Snape saw Lily in Harry's eyes at that moment also. And I wonder if by identifying Harry with Lily, when he said "Look... at... me" Snape didn't also want Harry to see Snape's love for Lily, and in a way, to confess his love to Lily through her son, the love he never managed to show directly to her. Kind of like being confused, and daydreaming that it would be Lily looking into the Pensive, and seeing how much he suffered and loved her.


I can see a bit of this in those words... Snape reveals himself with the memories he gives to Harry. At last, Harry sees who he really is and what his life was about. I do; however, think that the main reason behind these words is to see Lily's eyes one last time.

I do think that Snape was indeed a brave man.
Though he did a good thing, his only motivation was Lily.
He didn't care for anything else, certainly not Harry.
So, I kind of understand the person(s) who said that Snape's love toward Lily was a bit unbalance.
(I'll look for the quote and put it later)

I understand Snape loved Lily - to a point of unhealthy psycotic obsession it seems, I think it seems like a lot to ask the reader to believe that a person would put so much trust, absolute trust in fact, in someone so unbalanced.
I love the character of Snape and have for some time - his complexity and all - but it seems to do him an injustice that this "love" was the all consuming force that kept him under DD's complete control all these years, especially when we read as he produces the patronous for DD that he still didn't have a single caring bone for Harry.

Snape I think is the most disturbing character in the story. Voldemort and Grindelwald are both horrible and evil, but Snape's character has a weird duality that just sticks out as serioulsy messed up. Though he is a grouchy, highly unpleasant person, the sole motivation of his whole life is his love and memory of Lily.). Not only that, his "love" has a disturbing tunnel quality to it, where he separates out anything related to Lily.


The Prince's Tale was a sad chapter, but I only felt pity for Snape.

I find that very touching! I wonder if she did that on purpose. I guess it would be too much of a coincidense otherwise.
Definitely too much of a coincidence. She is a writer who has done a vast amount of research including Celtic calendars, tree signs, family crests, mythology, floriology, alchemy ... God, the list goes on and on. Interestingly, the Snape family crest has a stag on it, and in the celtic zodiac, Snape's representative animal according to his birthdate is also a white stag. :lol: All this stuff has been hashed and rehashed on the old Snape/Lily threads.

LOVE the information about the Christmas roses, SIP!

Wormwood was also said to have first grown on the trail left behind by the serpent as it left the Garden of Eden.

I knew it from Petunia's line last book, "That awful boy!" combined with Snape's attitude towards Harry. But I had NO idea how deep the connection was and that the two had actually called themselves "best friends". That was even more of a wonderful and bittersweet surprise.

If Snape had been loved, had been secure, had been confident, I think he absolutely had a chance at happiness with Lily. But he couldn't throw of the shackles that bound him - those of wanting to belong. The insecurities of needing to feel superior. Those things that led him initially to the dark side and his nasty friends. It also shows that no matter how "great" a kid Potter and his ilk were at the time - their bullying did NOTHING to help Snape's internal battles.

The whole thing is just terribly heart-rending.

:DI'm really conflicted concerning how I feel about this.

It's not that I think the idea is abhorrent, since I'm guilty of reading fanficition where Snape is Harry's biological father, but I was so surprised that JKR actually had a Snape/Lily relationship in the books. It's almost as though she read some fanfiction and decided to go along with what was most popular among the fans! I wonder when she decided she was going to have this angle to the story - was it always there, or was it something she decided on towards the end of the series.

I don't think she "decided to go along with it" - she's always said she had the books entirely mapped out before she started, and the little clues are there from Book 1. If anything, I think the fanfiction evolved because people were picking up on the clues . . . and because people love a good tragic romantic figure, of course. :)

It's been there. In Harry's first potions lesson with Snape, the very first question Snape asks Harry is about asphodel and wormwood. If you look them up, you'll find that Asphodel is a plant in the Lily family which means "unending regret. " Wormwood is a bitter herb that means "my regret follows you to the grave." It is also representative of seperation and torment of love.

Nice catch - I'm getting anxious now for JKR's press to really kick up. I hope people address some of these types of hints with her.

I find it interesting that you said this. As I was reading through this book and theories from this board kept coming to fruition, I kept giggling to myself and thinking; It looks almost as though she came onto the forums, read the theories, chose the ones she liked and added them into the story. Just to clarify, I am not saying that is what I happened, I just found myselfing thinking it a few times and laughing.:err:
:lol: I honestly dropped my book when I read that chapter. I did a double take and went, "say what now?" And then I remember thinking, "man, someone should pay all those fanfiction writers something!" It would be kind of sad though if that's why she did it. I mean, I don't think she just did it for that reason, but I can't help wonder if that's how she got the idea, or if it's popularity pushed her to go ahead with it.

I believe now that the entire point of the mention of "Draught of the Living Dead" in Book One is all about Lily.

Asphodel is a member of the Lily family. The name means "scepter" in Greek, and it's the plant associated with the afterlife on the fields of valor. It was planted on the graves of heroes, so it is associated with death.

In addition to what Hagatha wrote, Wormwood is another name for the plant artemisia, which is the ingredient for the drink "absinthe." The color of the drink is a bright, emerald green - like Lily's eyes.

If you want to read poetry written over the centuries about Asphodel, see my Essay: Essence of Asphodel (http://www.thehpn.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3674.0).
Wow, that's mind-boggling. Maybe that's why Snape didn't like Potions...all the reminders of Lily?

:D
I don't think she "decided to go along with it" - she's always said she had the books entirely mapped out before she started, and the little clues are there from Book 1.
I guess, but I just don't believe her. I don't like to think she's a liar, but I don't think she's beyond exaggerating to make it seem more spectacular that she went from nothing to this amazing story. I find it hard to believe that she had everything (given the complexity of the story) mapped out from that one train ride. If she did, then I think she did a great injustice to the Deathly Hallows, having the idea of them from the beginning, but only giving them one book.

:D

I don't think she "decided to go along with it" - she's always said she had the books entirely mapped out before she started, and the little clues are there from Book 1. If anything, I think the fanfiction evolved because people were picking up on the clues . . . and because people love a good tragic romantic figure, of course. :)
Precisely. :tu:

Nice catch - I'm getting anxious now for JKR's press to really kick up. I hope people address some of these types of hints with her.
Just to clarify -- it wasn't my catch, and I'm hesitant to try and name who did the research and made the connection first. Suffice it to say it has been a topic of discussion on many versions of Snape/Lily threads.

I mean, I don't think she just did it for that reason, but I can't help wonder if that's how she got the idea, or if it's popularity pushed her to go ahead with it.

You think the idea was popular? Wow -- that's a different take on it. I don't follow Harry Potter fanfiction of any kind, but here on probably the largest Harry Potter discussion forum, the topic was so volatile that it was banned. I think we pro-Snape/Lily folks were always vastly outnumbered.

Also, I don't think she came up with the entire story on the train ride. That's where she got Harry as a muse and she built the story from there in outline form.

If she did, then I think she did a great injustice to the Deathly Hallows, having the idea of them from the beginning, but only giving them one book.
The invisibility cloak was introduced in the first book.

I guess, but I just don't believe her. I don't like to think she's a liar, but I don't think she's beyond exaggerating to make it seem more spectacular that she went from nothing to this amazing story. I find it hard to believe that she had everything (given the complexity of the story) mapped out from that one train ride. If she did, then I think she did a great injustice to the Deathly Hallows, having the idea of them from the beginning, but only giving them one book.
I don't think that's very kind to the Author, is it?

I don't think she "lied" either. :rolleyes:

She did not make it all up on the train - she wrote it out over several years, including the backstory, and then talked to her publisher about sequals.

When she was asked after Book One why she made Quirrel the bad guy instead of the "Man in Black"/Snape, she said, "Because I know all about Snape and he wasn't about to put on that turban."

Knowing "All About Snape" means that she knew he had loved Lily and that was why he came back to the good side, long before the action of Book One.

hagatha, you are right; we who believed a connection between Snape and Lily were way outnumbered. I started wondering from about book 2, the eyes like Lily's. Snape disliked looking at Harry in the eyes and I started wondering then if maybe, then I found CoS and found others who thought the same way. But to have gotten so much history was so great. It was more than I could have hoped for.

I honestly dropped my book when I read that chapter. I did a double take and went, "say what now?" And then I remember thinking, "man, someone should pay all those fanfiction writers something!" It would be kind of sad though if that's why she did it. I mean, I don't think she just did it for that reason, but I can't help wonder if that's how she got the idea, or if it's popularity pushed her to go ahead with it.
Of course not. The epilouge was written years ago and if she had Harry name his son after Snape then I'm sure she had that idea in her head. For years JKR has been refusing to answer whether or not Snape loved Lily and she's answered no before Snape/Lily fic became popular.

I would like to note that Snape wearing a smock in childhood, for whatever reason (his family's lack of wealth seems likely) perfectly explains his love of frock coats in the movies. Hmm, the costume designer had to have been tipped off by JKR.

Jo clearly planned nearly everything about this story from the beginning, and that was a key point. None of the past makes much sense if she had just decided to add in the relationship later.

I knew it from Petunia's line last book, "That awful boy!" combined with Snape's attitude towards Harry. But I had NO idea how deep the connection was and that the two had actually called themselves "best friends". That was even more of a wonderful and bittersweet surprise.


I thought that was a good catch - that Petunia wasn't referring to James at all when she said, "That awful boy!" She was referring to Snape!

For Snape, Lily was his reminder of the good in the world. However, he only viewed her as good, and not the rest of her "type" (half-bloods). Snape held himself back or caught himself from calling Lily a Mudblood, but had no hesitation in calling Lily's friends Mudbloods. Snape was truly encompassed in his love for Lily, because he saw only her as acceptable, even thought she was a half-blood. All the other half-bloods were bad people and seemed to deserve to be called Mudbloods.

Furthermore, when Snape finally calls Lilys a Mudblood, he loses her forever because it becomes blatanly obvious that Snape had only been preventing himself previous because they were friends. But this mess-up broke through his lie to himself and to Lily. In the end, Snape brought it on himself. Yet I pity him, because I cannot help but feel that if Snape had not grown up in such a dark atmosphere with his abusive family, he would not have turned to Dark Magic and gotten himself caught between good and evil.

Also, this leads me to believe that it's the evil stuck in Snape that prevents him from ever being able to show his love in such a way that it touches Lily and opens her eyes to the truth. She was very naive, and quite blind to reality, but only because Snape had been trying to mask his true self that had been molded from years of being raised in Dark Magic.

Furthermore, when Snape finally calls Lilys a Mudblood, he loses her forever because it becomes blatanly obvious that Snape had only been preventing himself previous because they were friends. But this mess-up broke through his lie to himself and to Lily. In the end, Snape brought it on himself. Yet I pity him, because I cannot help but feel that if Snape had not grown up in such a dark atmosphere with his abusive family, he would not have turned to Dark Magic and gotten himself caught between good and evil.

I quite agree; he had a difficult childhood and not much love. He may have been different had he had parents who loved him and eachother.

Also, this leads me to believe that it's the evil stuck in Snape that prevents him from ever being able to show his love in such a way that it touches Lily and opens her eyes to the truth. She was very naive, and quite blind to reality, but only because Snape had been trying to mask his true self that had been molded from years of being raised in Dark Magic.

Yes, Snape had been masking his true feelings, then put his foot in his mouth and was never able to get it out in Lily's eyes again. It didn't help that he was in Slytherin, with Malfoy pushing him, I'm sure, to be nastier and nastier to muggleborn and mixed bloods. When you already lean toward something and someone just keeps pushing you in that direction, it's hard not to fall. Lily was the one thing keeping him on the ledge, but then he opened his mouth. And spent the rest of his life trying to undo what he had done, to whatever degree he could.

Lets move on I think we can all agree JKR did not borrow her ideas from fan-fiction

In the 2nd read, I saw in the chapter where Snape asks Harry to look at him. Their eyes meet. It is obvious that the last eyes Snape wants to see are Lily's eyes. I have never been a Snape fan, but at some point, I knew there was a reason why Snape never had a bitter word toward Harry regarding his mother. It made me end up feeling bad for Snape in the end (I admit I did not like him too much).

I would definitely disagree with the statement that she is the greatest writer of all time. Masterful story teller, undoubtedly, but that is completely different from use of prose and the actual composition of a story. These are definitely my favorite books, but that has nothing to do with how well they are written.

Let's everyone drop the JKR is/isn't best author ever discussion and get back on topic.

Lily and Snape.

Doesn't anyone else think that Snape's love for Lily is quite similar to Heathcliff's love for Cathy Earnshaw in Emily Brontë's Wuthering Heights?

I've always figured Snape as a kind of Heathcliff. Dark man with dark eyes, bitter and mean, full of a passion so great that he dislikes everybody else and particularly his loved one's child...

King, you are right! Lily and Snape; the unrequited love of a lifetime.

Don't anyone else think that Snape's love for Lily is quite similar to Heathcliff's love for Cathy Earnshaw in Emily Brontë's Wuthering Heights?

I've always figured Snape as a kind of Heathcliff. Dark man with dark eyes, bitter and mean, full of a passion so great that he dislikes everybody else and particularly his loved one's child...

Yes I picked up on that while reading. Snape/Lily are very similar to Cathy/Heathcliff as children and I thought that was sweet. I would say Heathcliff and Snape's actions after the deaths of their loves are different. Heathcliff is bent on revenge and is willing to do terrible things. While Snape although out for revenge is in it for noble reasons and transforms. Heathcliff only transforms at the very end. :)

i can't believe that never occured to me, i never got why that was his worst memory, but thinking back now that was the moment he lost her from his life and would fill the role of worst memory.

Well, Heathcliff was loved and betrayed by Cathy. That wasn't the case for Severus, whose love was always one-sided.

And Severus had Dumbledore, who wanted him to protect Harry. Cathy's daughter didn't need any protection (aside a good one from Heathcliff...).

But the way these two characters love is the same. It's an absolute passion. Life or death can't undo it in any way.

I noticed that Snape never talked bad about Lily, and I read a theory about it on here. I was actually pleased mostly that they had a friendship.

Let's everyone drop the JKR is/isn't best author ever discussion and get back on topic.

Lily and Snape.

:lol: Sorry, kingwidgit, but this made me laugh and laugh -- we're used to "get back on topic -- no more Snape/Lily talk!" :lol: *happy sigh*

Doesn't anyone else think that Snape's love for Lily is quite similar to Heathcliff's love for Cathy Earnshaw in Emily Brontë's Wuthering Heights?

I've always figured Snape as a kind of Heathcliff. Dark man with dark eyes, bitter and mean, full of a passion so great that he dislikes everybody else and particularly his loved one's child...
You know what thread you might like? There's a wonderful thread started by ignisia in the Pensieve area that focuses on Snape as a Gothic/Byronic Hero. Here's the link if anyone is interested in that discussion.

http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=100534

JKR is an avid reader and I too, see the similarities between Snape and Heathcliff.

Yes I picked up on that while reading. Snape/Lily are very similar to Cathy/Heathcliff as children and I thought that was sweet. I would say Heathcliff and Snape's actions after the deaths of their loves are different. Heathcliff is bent on revenge and is willing to do terrible things. While Snape although out for revenge is in it for noble reasons and transforms. Heathcliff only transforms at the very end. :)


I was actually thinking that in car today....god what's wrong with me :D I do see two differences though...the first you mention. Heathcliff is out to revenge and is destructive to everyone. Snape is out for revenge but somehow he confines pretty much to Voldemort. Yeh... I know..he mistreated Harry the son of James Potter.
It's peanuts compared to Heathcliff's behavior towards Hareton Earnshaw. And Cathy loved Heathcliff, I can't see her breaking off with him because he called her a name.
But I do think Snape is very much in the mold of Heathcliff but I like Snape better.

It's been there. In Harry's first potions lesson with Snape, the very first question Snape asks Harry is about asphodel and wormwood. If you look them up, you'll find that Asphodel is a plant in the Lily family which means "unending regret. " Wormwood is a bitter herb that means "my regret follows you to the grave." It is also representative of seperation and torment of love.
This is such a wonderful discovery! I think the Snape/Lily relationship has been there from the beginning as well, because some things make sense only with Snape loving Lily. For example, nothing explains Snape's hatred of Sirius in PoA as much as his holding him responsible for Lily's death. Yes, they had been enemies, but Snape seems demented in that scene, as if he's never seen such evil as Sirius has demonstrated, and that makes no sense, considering he himself used to work for Voldemort.

Also, the fact that Snape had a huge argument with Harry in HBP about the best way to fight off dementors: it's clearly he didn't want Harry to see his Patronus! I had thought before that Snape prefered darker way of fighting, but now I see it as so cute and touching and sad that he wanted to hide the doe!

Yeah, looking back and seeing all the info from more learned posters than I, the relationship has been evident since book one. Very lyrical in it's presentation. Although I don't think Snape was thinking that way, but it's pretty cool to look back and see as the reader, the hints that have been planted are pretty nice.

I was actually thinking that in car today....god what's wrong with me :D I do see two differences though...the first you mention. Heathcliff is out to revenge and is destructive to everyone. Snape is out for revenge but somehow he confines pretty much to Voldemort. Yeh... I know..he mistreated Harry the son of James Potter.
It's peanuts compared to Heathcliff's behavior towards Hareton Earnshaw. And Cathy loved Heathcliff, I can't see her breaking off with him because he called her a name.
But I do think Snape is very much in the mold of Heathcliff but I like Snape better.

I own Wuthering Heights but never read it...I must now that the characters sound so intriguing.

Also I am happy Severus never talked bad about Lily, that would totally ruin but lead us differently to the conclusion we have now. But he sure loved to beat on James....haha. :err: I'm going to send a question to Bloomsbury for that Webchat Jo is having on the 30th and I'm gonna ask...did Lily ever forgive Snape? I hope she gets that one!

It's also the only reason that really makes sense for Snape to be good at all. Nothing else could provide that motivation.

you know i never would have expected snape to LOVE lily. i thought he might have had a crush on her, but ruled anything more out because she is a muggleborn. (i forgot he is a half blood) and had i known they used to live near eachother, i would have thought he liked her strongly. no wonder he hated James Potter. He's arrogant, and show off (of his talents and attractiveness), he makes fun of snape, and he got lily potter -the love of snapes life).

STUPID VOLDIE!!! NEVER FACTORED IN THE HEARTS DESIRE! just because VOLDIE doesn't love, doesn't mean other people don't.

redwitch, you are on the money. Like DD said, anything LV didn't believe he never took the time to understand. And that added to his demise. Snape's memories of Lily helped Harry know what he had to do. And I do think it was love and not obsession. His remorse was for Lily, yes, that's true, but not out of the realm of love. She was one of his first friends, stayed his friend for a long time. I loved that she called him "Sev", it was so darn sweet.

I have no trouble with how this relationship played out in the books really. Snape was hopelessly in love with a person he clearly hated. Snape was a Death Eater, a bloodist, and Lily was a Mudblood. Snape couldn't relinquish his racism for his love, and thus lost Lily, and later regretted it to the point of changing his allegiance. It's a bit tragic really.

It's too bad Snape couldn't see the Lily in Harry instead of just the James.

Snape was very loveable in the Deathly Hallows. He was this waify thing running around in his mother's blouse (what's not to love) Crying in Dumbledore's room that he wanted to die. Getting his head bitten off by a snake. If you couldn't like Snape after reading Deathly Hallows then it's not for want of the author trying (IMO) JKR has never written him so sympathetically until now. PLUS when I close my eyes I see Alan Rickman...Lily was fool.

As much as I LOVE Alan Rickman, I just can't help think that he's a little old to play someone who had been Harry's mother's best friend...ha ha ha! Otherwise, he is the perfect Snape!

Also, in response to some of the posts about Movie 5's mistake in SWM about leaving Lily out, I wouldn't be surprised if they cut this plot point down a lot once movie 7 comes out, not that I'd want that...but as far as movie making goes I think it would take too much time to explore. But I digress from the thread topic.

As so many others (including myself) have said....my favorite chapter by far!

Alan Rickman!! :) He makes my heart to pitterpat.
BUt back to Snape and Lily before we get a slap on the wrist. unless it came from Snape? Just kidding.

My Snape is way more skinny and sallow and greasy and hateful than Alan Rickman. Then again, I see things with that American enthusiasm and not the British reservation.
And I don't love Snape now, and it's not Jo's fault. I don't find boys who are racist and just happen to love someone they should hate and then do nothing about it except hate her husband and son lovable.

STUPID VOLDIE!!! NEVER FACTORED IN THE HEARTS DESIRE! just because VOLDIE doesn't love, doesn't mean other people don't.

That's one of the reasons I believed so strongly that a Snape/Lily relationship would come into play. We'd been told from the very first book that Voldemort didn't understand love. This lack of understanding was his biggest weakness. If it was indeed his biggest weakness, we needed to see another instance of him underestimating love and having it contribute to his downfall. He did that when he allowed Snape back into his circle, knowing full well that Snape had loved Lily.

It was, indeed, Snape's love for Lily that made her sacrifice and Harry's survival possible all those years ago. It may not sound terribly heroic that Snape was desperate enough to beg for Lily to be spared regardless of what happened to her husband and child, but if Snape hadn't been desperate enough to plead for her life, Voldemort very likely would have killed her without giving her the chance to step aside and live. That chance being offered and rejected is what triggered the protective magic that spared Harry. So Snape's love for Lily really was the heart of it all and the key to the series. :love:

Also, in response to some of the posts about Movie 5's mistake in SWM about leaving Lily out, I wouldn't be surprised if they cut this plot point down a lot once movie 7 comes out, not that I'd want that...but as far as movie making goes I think it would take too much time to explore. But I digress from the thread topic.
Oh, are people talking about that? I guess I'd missed those posts. I don't see it as a mistake necessarily. We could always see a longer version of SWM in Film 7. According to an interview with the actor who portrayed young Snape, they filmed quite a great deal more than we've seen so far. They may be saving some of the footage for the later film to keep from having the exact same footage in both films. I also think it would have been difficult to instruct the actors (Severus & Lily) to portray the scene correctly without giving anything away too early. Lily would need to convey shock and hurt, while I believe Severus was instantly regretful. It might have the potential to spoil the surprise for those folks who only see the films. *shrug*

It was, indeed, Snape's love for Lily that made her sacrifice and Harry's survival possible all those years ago. It may not sound terribly heroic that Snape was desperate enough to beg for Lily to be spared regardless of what happened to her husband and child, but if Snape hadn't been desperate enough to plead for her life, Voldemort very likely would have killed her without giving her the chance to step aside and live. That chance being offered and rejected is what triggered the protective magic that spared Harry. So Snape's love for Lily really was the heart of it all and the key to the series. :love:
You're right, I hadn't thought of it like that. But I still don't like him, lol. His love for Lily doesn't explain things like "I don't see a difference."

Small question about the Lily/Snape relationship...

When Snape was in Dumbledore's office and was angry that Dumbledore was going to let Harry die, Dumbledore said "Have you grown to care for the boy?" Snape responded by shouting and casting his Patronus which is a doe. Dumbledore said "After all this time?" which Snape responded "Always".

What was Dumbledore refering to when he said "After all this time?"...Was it Snape's caring for Harry or the fact that his Patronus was a doe just like Lily's?

Small question about the Lily/Snape relationship...

When Snape was in Dumbledore's office and was angry that Dumbledore was going to let Harry die, Dumbledore said "Have you grown to care for the boy?" Snape responded by shouting and casting his Patronus which is a doe. Dumbledore said "After all this time?" which Snape responded "Always".

What was Dumbledore refering to when he said "After all this time?"...Was it Snape's caring for Harry or the fact that his Patronus was a doe just like Lily's?


Dumbledore was referring to Snape's love for Lily and how Snape will "always" love her. :)

Always. With tears in his eyes as he said it. Made me cry...again.

Always. With tears in his eyes as he said it. Made me cry...again.

*sniff* Me too. I swear that is my favorite scene in the book.

Dumbledore was referring to Snape's love for Lily and how Snape will "always" love her. :)

Ah, I see. Thats so sweet. :love:

That chapter was everything I could have hoped for. It explained the relationship and we got to see Snapes remorse. Harry got it, got it so fast, he knew then and those memories explained so much to him and not just about what he had to do. That kind of love is destructive. Look what was lost because of it? The list is seemingly endless.

I have to admit I did an *I told you so* to my husband....:p

My gut instinct was that Snape loved Lily, and when the doe Patronus came to Harry that same gut instinct screamed to me that it was Snape, and that his Patronus was a doe for Lily and I really, really, REALLY absolutely thought that was beautiful.

I also think Snape told Harry to "look at me" so he could see Lily's eyes before he died also.

When I saw the doe Patronus, I thought Lily was communicating with him. Snape didn't even register. I spend a long time trying to figure out how she had done it. Yeah, I was in that much denial...

i thought it was brilliant. supporting even more dumbledore's ideas of the power of love. but still i hated how he treated harry and siruis. i never saw that idea behind the green eyes though. its really sad though.

i thought it was brilliant. supporting even more dumbledore's ideas of the power of love. but still i hated how he treated harry and siruis. i never saw that idea behind the green eyes though. its really sad though.

Perhaps this isn't the thread, but what did you hate about how Snape treated Sirius? How was Sirius' sneers at Snape any better?

Regarding the scene with Snape and Dumbledore...and Snape's "always." I've written this before, but I think Snape refused to admit he cared for Harry. It's easy to love someone who is dead for several reasons: firstly, you always have the memories of them to comfort you, and the bad ones tend to fade over time. Secondly, someone who is dead cannot hurt you. They have no means to disappoint you, to use you or any other thing that love can do to the soul. But Harry...Harry was living. And Snape knew what Harry's role was. Snape had to live with Harry, a living breathing being. Harry, if Snape let himself care about Harry, could only hurt Snape. That's the lesson Snape learned in his life: care about someone, and you only get hurt. So instead, he remained in love with a memory, caught up in the past and what could have been.

Regarding the scene with Snape and Dumbledore...and Snape's "always." I've written this before, but I think Snape refused to admit he cared for Harry. It's easy to love someone who is dead for several reasons: firstly, you always have the memories of them to comfort you, and the bad ones tend to fade over time. Secondly, someone who is dead cannot hurt you. They have no means to disappoint you, to use you or any other thing that love can do to the soul. But Harry...Harry was living. And Snape knew what Harry's role was. Snape had to live with Harry, a living breathing being. Harry, if Snape let himself care about Harry, could only hurt Snape. That's the lesson Snape learned in his life: care about someone, and you only get hurt. So instead, he remained in love with a memory, caught up in the past and what could have been.


This is an excellent intepretation and I agree. I too believe Snape didn't want to allow himself to get close to Harry because of the pain. Dumbledore even tells Snape at one point that Snape sees what he wants to see. Of course Snape doesn't want to acknowledge Harry is more like Lily because that would just hurt worse.

good point hpfan; he did live with his memories in the past. Like LV, he was taught that to love and care only brought pain and sorrow. The similarity between the 3 was well written. Harry learned to love despite the Dursley's, Snape lost his one love and chose to never love again, LV chose to never love at all. And the one other link between the 3 was Lily. Always Lily.

Always. With tears in his eyes as he said it. Made me cry...again.

I didn't cry in this chapter. I just felt pity for him.
After all, He did give a **** about Harry. :lol:
I don't think I could think otherwise.
I can't cut him some slack, really, though I will say that we was very brave indeed, for whichever reason he had.

Another thing:

MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron interview Joanne Kathleen Rowling
July 16, 2005: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince publication day
Edinburgh, Scotland
Part Three http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml MA: Oh, here's one [from our forums] that I've really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?

JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has.


Was this person Lilly? Snape's mother?