Snape and Lily - the Relationship Revealed!

My Snape is way more skinny and sallow and greasy and hateful than Alan Rickman. Then again, I see things with that American enthusiasm and not the British reservation.
And I don't love Snape now, and it's not Jo's fault. I don't find boys who are racist and just happen to love someone they should hate and then do nothing about it except hate her husband and son lovable.

You're sensible. I agree with you.
I guess the main appeal of this relationship is the very unrequited love-y edge of it.

Dumbledore even tells Snape at one point that Snape sees what he wants to see. Of course Snape doesn't want to acknowledge Harry is more like Lily because that would just hurt worse.
Amazing that Harry also refused to see the good in Snape because it was too painful. And Dumbledore always tried to get them to see eachother as they truly were.

good point hpfan; he did live with his memories in the past. Like LV, he was taught that to love and care only brought pain and sorrow. The similarity between the 3 was well written. Harry learned to love despite the Dursley's, Snape lost his one love and chose to never love again, LV chose to never love at all. And the one other link between the 3 was Lily. Always Lily.
I love what you wrote here. I agree, Lily was the link between all three. Snape loved her, Harry contains her, and Voldemort saw Lily as worthless. Snape, Harry and Voldemort are three of the same, all with different fates. The analagies between the three are amazing, and the face that Lily, both in her life but more so in her death, led to each man's destiny, really is a work of beauty by JKR.

I agree. I know that everyone will love the unrequited love scenario and argue that Sniv-ahem...Severus deserved Lily and not James but I hope nobody will distort the relationship that Harry's parents clearly had. I had hoped that DH would show us more of their relationship but unfortunately it didnt However good Snape may be, I cannot respect him for everything that he did to Lily, Sirius, and Harry.

Snape's "always" was touching but it was his own fault he got mixed up with the DEs. And James and Sirius may have treated him poorly but shouldnt they have for the way that he treated everyone else? for being like the cruel hearted Slytherin DEs? For calling Lily a Mudblood?

My love for Snape is that he is a man with faults who tried, till his death, to pay for his mistakes. yes, he was racist, but he lost the one thing that mattered to him and spent the rest of his life paying for that. Redemption is the key here. If everyone was graded by the one big mistake they made (and I've made some doosies!) and never given a chance to change and try and pay for those mistakes, we would be a much sadder people. Second chances are great.

This is an excellent intepretation and I agree. I too believe Snape didn't want to allow himself to get close to Harry because of the pain. Dumbledore even tells Snape at one point that Snape sees what he wants to see. Of course Snape doesn't want to acknowledge Harry is more like Lily because that would just hurt worse.
I think Snape hated Harry because when he looked at Harry he saw James, not Lily. Snape didn't see Lily until he was on his deathbed.

I disagree, mbd09. I think he avoided Harrys eyes a lot. In Harry's face, he saw the man he hated with the eyes of the woman he loved. It would be hard to look at that all the time. Plus, as DD mentioned, Snape saw what he wanted to see; it made it easier to see Harry as James and not as Lily, who he was more like in the end.
You see, the thing is, you see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear. (Rockman)

Amazing that Harry also refused to see the good in Snape because it was too painful. And Dumbledore always tried to get them to see eachother as they truly were.
What good was even somewhat visible in Snape until we got those memories? And given evidence, Harry immediately saw the good in Snape and changed all of his opinions. That was Harry's strength, he could see the good in people.

Snape was always helping Harry, as Hermione pointed out. But they refused to see eachother for what they really were. Of course, Snape making DD swear not to tell anyone didn't help that. DD was on the verge of breaking that confidence in HBP, but chose to keep his word.
You are right, Harry could see the good in people and when he had the evidence in his hands (or head as it were), he changed his opinion of Snape immediately. How cool is that?

I think Snape hated Harry because when he looked at Harry he saw James, not Lily. Snape didn't see Lily until he was on his deathbed.

I have to disagree often times as a defense mechanism people will put up a wall and I believe that is exactly what Snape did. It would have hurt Snape to admit his feelings and get close to Harry. It also would have been a dangerous game for Snape since he is a spy.

More than anything, I was glad to see that, at its truest and basest core, this relationship was a friendship FIRST, and not some unrequited from-afar crush. They were best friends. How cool is that?! It made what could have been god-awful and cheesy feel believable and poignant. As someone else quoted else-thread, the friendships we make in childhood are the ones we carry forever.

I thought it was movingly done (though, greedy me, I wished for even more.) Little "Sev" and Lily hiding in the trees talking magic...it had a sort of Bridge to Taribithia feel to it. And ickle!Sev in his horrible clothes, lying about his awful parents...sigh. He truly was one of JKR's "abandoned boys." :sad:

And I'm so glad to see a few people point out how this impacted Snape's behavior in PoA! I used that as one of my pieces of "evidence" when I posted my Snape/Lily theory - how radically different Snape's taunting and nastiness with Black is in OotP as opposed to the demented, manaical, murderous hatred he clearly felt in the Shack. Whoever above me suggested it is right - go back and read that chapter knowing what we know now, and it's a real eye-opener.

(And -OMG!- how did he keep himself from killing Wormtail?!)

I wonder how he kept from killing wormtail too! That is one piece of vermin from the word go! that alone shows how strong Snape was.
I also liked that they were friends first. Obviously Snape liked Lily more, but he was content, at first, to be her friend. He kept loving her and then put his foot in his mouth (like I said before) and lost his one love.

I disagree, mbd09. I think he avoided Harrys eyes a lot. In Harry's face, he saw the man he hated with the eyes of the woman he loved. It would be hard to look at that all the time. Plus, as DD mentioned, Snape saw what he wanted to see; it made it easier to see Harry as James and not as Lily, who he was more like in the end.
You see, the thing is, you see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear. (Rockman)


When did he ever avoid Harry's eyes? All I remember is Snape looking at Harry with loathing.

But as far as we know, there was very little direct eye contact. you can look at someone with loathing and still avoid the eyes. Eyes are the window to the soul.

I own Wuthering Heights but never read it...I must now that the characters sound so intriguing.

Also I am happy Severus never talked bad about Lily, that would totally ruin but lead us differently to the conclusion we have now. But he sure loved to beat on James....haha. :err: I'm going to send a question to Bloomsbury for that Webchat Jo is having on the 30th and I'm gonna ask...did Lily ever forgive Snape? I hope she gets that one! This was the first thing I thought of when I was done with the book! Snape the romantic hero! And I immediately thought of Heathcliff, and there are so many parallels in the behavior, although Severus ends up both making more mistakes and being better reformed. I can't remember everything, although it is one of my favorite books of all time. But Heathcliff is defended only by Catherine when he is a child. Of course, there was more reciprocation there than between Snape and Lily as far as love goes. Heathcliff becomes cruel and hateful when he loses Catherine. He tortures Isabella and his child with her, and I can't remember if he somehow gets his hands on Catherine's son also and treats him poorly. You feel sad for him in the end, when he runs looking for Catherine's ghost. He was never as bad as Snape (not a Death Eater), but he was never reformed either. Snape seems to become a better person during the year when he is good and alone, and everyone thinks he is bad. I think his telling Phineas not to call Hermione a Mudblood shows that he learned from his past. It's a sign of maturity, of character development.

Hagatha Christie, your comment is brilliant about how it was Snape's love for Lily that made Harry's survival possible, and the defeat of Voldemort, because Snape is the one who asked Voldemort to spare her, and that is why he gave her the choice. It is clear all this Snape/Lily tragic love story was planned from the beginning. One wishes that Snape's love for Lily had kept him from becoming a DE in the first place, which may have protected the Potters from being hunted down. But what if a different spy of Voldemort's had overheard Trelawney? There is too much in the first book that connects to Snape and Lily, including the insistence on Harry's having Lily's eyes. We don't have any other meaningful reason for that insistence. So the pattern of Snape saving Harry goes way back, even if he didn't do it on purpose, he only loved the mother...

Originally Posted by mdb09
My Snape is way more skinny and sallow and greasy and hateful than Alan Rickman. Then again, I see things with that American enthusiasm and not the British reservation.
And I don't love Snape now, and it's not Jo's fault. I don't find boys, who are racist and just happen to love someone they should hate and then do nothing about it except hate her husband and son, lovable.

You're sensible. I agree with you.
I guess the main appeal of this relationship is the very unrequited love-y edge of it.


I agree with both of you.
I pity Snape, but I won't cut him slack ,except for saying that he was very brave indeed.

I think Snape was a product of his upbringing. He was a racist but only because he had it drilled in his head. No one is born a racist. He was a kid and then he was placed around people who were given the same ideas he was given.

I think eveyone deserves a chance at forgiveness. He even learnt because he told the portrait not to use the word mudblood, which is a step forward I think.

I still think there was a chance that he would have ended up with Lily if it wasn't for his determination to be in Slytherin. I think those memories proves how misinformed he was. Saying that Slytherin was brainy. You think he would want to be in Ravenclaw but clearly someone was feeding him misinformation or hightly skewed info.

Sirius was fed just as much ****, even more I'd bet. And he was in Gryffindor.

Sirius was fed just as much ****, even more I'd bet. And he was in Gryffindor.


If you want to talk about Sirius in relation to Snape then head on over to the Snape thread in LS.

Hagatha Christie, your comment is brilliant about how it was Snape's love for Lily that made Harry's survival possible, and the defeat of Voldemort, because Snape is the one who asked Voldemort to spare her, and that is why he gave her the choice. It is clear all this Snape/Lily tragic love story was planned from the beginning. One wishes that Snape's love for Lily had kept him from becoming a DE in the first place, which may have protected the Potters from being hunted down. But what if a different spy of Voldemort's had overheard Trelawney? There is too much in the first book that connects to Snape and Lily, including the insistence on Harry's having Lily's eyes. We don't have any other meaningful reason for that insistence. So the pattern of Snape saving Harry goes way back, even if he didn't do it on purpose, he only loved the mother...


i never thought of that!
iit was severus longing to save her, to try to convince voldemort of not killing her that ends up in her sacrifice for harry, if she hadn't been given that choice (after severus' pleads) there wouldn't have been that protection on harry.

Yes but Snape had a muggle father who didn't love him. He had a real life example of hateful muggles. Snape was poor and had nothing but the fact that he could do magic.

Sorry. My point is just that the family doesn't make the man. Snape doesn't have an excuse. He could have chosen to change for Lily. So he is not a better person in my eyes just because he loved her.

Sorry. My point is just that the family doesn't make the man. Snape doesn't have an excuse. He could have chosen to change for Lily. So he is not a better person in my eyes just because he loved her.


Snape did change though at least to me, perhaps not at first but he needed to make tragic mistakes in order to redeem himself. His love for Lily was the basis for the change but it grew to be much more then just that by the end of the memories that we see. And I have to disagree with you about family influence, it most certainly does help mold a persons view on life, parents are role models for their children. Snape really didn't have much in the way of that as he seemed severely neglected with a muggle father who was probably abusive. I am sure that helped shape some of his views along with being in Slytherin at the height of the first war. People make mistakes but they also change and from what I see Snape changed out of love for Lily.

Family molds a person, but it doesn't finalize a person. Snape only changed to one person, maybe two if you count Dumbledore. He treated everyone else terribly. Even defenseless children who had done nothing to harm him.

I had suspected, at the very least, a freindhsip between the two. It had always made sense to me---the way Snape NEVER insulted Lily, or even referred to her. How much hate (both rational and irrational) he had for James. The fact the Lily was quite the potions maven. It just seemed to add up. I was very satisfied with the way JKR portrayed the entire thing in Snape's memory.

And I was tearfully impressed when Harry named his son Albus Severus, and referred to Snape as being "one of the bravest men he knew".

Family molds a person, but it doesn't finalize a person. Snape only changed to one person, maybe two if you count Dumbledore. He treated everyone else terribly. Even defenseless children who had done nothing to harm him.

*sigh*

And it didn't finalize him did it? Snape did change no matter what the circumstances were he did change. I actually agree that Snape has had his moments that were less then perfect in the series but so has all the characters. If there was no redemption in this book and no backstory to allow the readers to understand Snape better perhaps I would agree with you more but I just cannot because I see Snape very different then the way you do. Snape is much more tragic and complex for me then labeling him just as a nasty person.

So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts? What do you think this friendship was based on? Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts? How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin? How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory? Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"? Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater? Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?

I was not surprised but excited and fulfilled to see that my predictions/hopes were basically dead on about Snape and his love for Lily (something I've been clinging to since book 5). I figured they knew each other before Hogwarts from.. I forget which book it is, where Petunia talks about the "awful boy" who told Lily about dementors. The reader is supposed to assume James is the awful boy, as he is associated with magic, but after considering the possibility of Lily and Snape knowing each other/more, it seemed possible that it was actually Snape.

I think Lily would have forgiven Snape for his mudblood comment. Being friends with him in the first place probably means she is an accepting and forgiving individual. It seemed to me that the real driving force in their friendship ending was Snape's decision to hang with the wrong crowd.

Sirius was fed just as much ****, even more I'd bet. And he was in Gryffindor.

good point, but I kind of get the impression that Sirius wanted to be different to be spiteful. He hated his family and knew he was different to them. He is loyal, brave and very Gryffindor-y in characteristics. Snape was weaker, quieter, less desperate to break the family tradition....

I think Snape was sorted into Slytherin because he both wanted to be and had the potential to be a Slytherin. As Dumbledore later says "we sort too soon" (or something to that effect). Snape had the potential to be a Gryffindor too. And could have had a very different future had he not got in with the wrong poeople. And Harry gets it aswell. He knows that Snape was so incredibly brave.

But bravery, and his love for Lily are the only things that redeem him. I do not see him as a nice person. Just an incredibly complex, tragic, and downright fantastic character.

*sigh*

And it didn't finalize him did it? Snape did change no matter what the circumstances were he did change. I actually agree that Snape has had his moments that were less then perfect in the series but so has all the characters. If there was no redemption in this book and no backstory to allow the readers to understand Snape better perhaps I would agree with you more but I just cannot because I see Snape very different then the way you do. Snape is much more tragic and complex for me then labeling him just as a nasty person.
I agree that Snape is tragic and complex. And while I like complex people, I don't like tragic people. I think a lot of it for me is I know some Snapes. I just don't get along with them. I can't sympathize with Snape. I think redemption would have involved an apology to Harry. If on his deathbed he had uttered, "I'm sorry..." I'm sure I would feel 100% different.

Although I knew that Snape was likely to die in this book, given where the plot was headed, I was no less shocked and heartbroken after reading "The Prince's Tale." I'd wondered... and what is the absolute worst thing to me, the concept that made me want to tear the pages right from my brand-new copy of "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows" and deny what was happening, was that Snape died without ever really having been happy. He died without ever having known love. I never cared which side Snape was on. I just hoped that someday there would be somebody to love him, somebody to care for him, but he died on the floor of the Shrieking Shack in a pool of blood and painful memories. He didn't deserve that. I broke down and cried when I read "The Hunchback of Notre Dame," but when I finished "Deathly Hallows" tears were beyond me. I was angry beyond measure, I wanted to destroy something, because books and stories are an escape from the stupidity and the cruelty of the world. Seeing the ruinous end of my favorite character reminded me that horrible things happen to good people, even in the sanctuary of literature.

Can we have a moment of silence for Severus Snape?

I wonder why Snape never tried to find anyone after Lily? I got vibes when he was around Narcissa....but there's nothing concrete to support that. But it does show that if he likes someone he can be human. It's just too bad he didn't like too many people.

But his love for Lily wasn't pure. I get the impression it was what Slughorn called "obsessive love", that powerful and dirty idea. He looked at her "greedily". He wanted her because he was stubborn, because she was attractive physically and mentally and powerful. It was an angry, jealous love. I guess it's better to base a life of difficult double agent work on this half-love than on, say, power or money or fame or fear, but only a little better.

But his love for Lily wasn't pure. I get the impression it was what Slughorn called "obsessive love", that powerful and dirty idea. He looked at her "greedily". He wanted her because he was stubborn, because she was attractive physically and mentally and powerful. It was an angry, jealous love. I guess it's better to base a life of difficult double agent work on this half-love than on, say, power or money or fame or fear, but only a little better.

I have to disagree with you here. Would 'powerful and dirty' obsessive love really cause a man to avenge the woman he loved's death for 17 years? Would it take him to his death? Would it redeem him in her son's eyes? I don't think that in naming Harry's son Albus Severus, Jo intended us to believe that Snape's redeeming love for Lily was dirty and obsessive. It was pure. It was perhaps the one pure thing in him.

Originally posted by mdb09
I wonder why Snape never tried to find anyone after Lily? I got vibes when he was around Narcissa....but there's nothing concrete to support that. But it does show that if he likes someone he can be human. It's just too bad he didn't like too many people.

I think those vibes may have been intentional. But not for romantic reasons....if that makes sense? I think that Snape has a weak spot for weeping, desperate mothers, who will do anything to protect their only son....ringing any bells? I kind of felt that Severus felt (dare I say it?) compassion for Narcissa in her hour of need because he saw Lily mirrored there.....

I have to disagree with you here. Would 'powerful and dirty' obsessive love really cause a man to avenge the woman he loved's death for 17 years? Would it take him to his death? Would it redeem him in her son's eyes? I don't that in naming Harry's son Albus Severus, Jo intended us to believe that Snape's redeeming love for Lily was dirty and obsessive. It was pure. It was perhaps the one pure thing in him.


Snape love was pure and selfless because he spent his entire life in remorse for having caused Lily's death, and he turned Spy for the order only to protect Harry, who was the son of his love. If it wasn't true love Snape wouldn't have bothered to make such a sacrifice. He wouldn't have agreed to live such a dangerous life. But he did, and this shows that his love was true.

[. . .] how radically different Snape's taunting and nastiness with Black is in OotP as opposed to the demented, manaical, murderous hatred he clearly felt in the Shack. Whoever above me suggested it is right - go back and read that chapter knowing what we know now, and it's a real eye-opener.

(And -OMG!- how did he keep himself from killing Wormtail?!)

How did he keep from killing Wormtail? Maybe he had already spent the most intense part of his emotional reaction when that wound was first opened with the discovery of Sirius. But after that, once he knew the truth, maybe he just loathed Wormtail, but had already calmed down. It seems like we should have seen a bit more loathing, though. He does treat Wormtail like vermin in his own house, but that seemed justifiable enough from his Marauder history. Maybe at that point he had a lot more on his mind: the return of Voldemort, trying to play his part as spy (killing Wormtail might have attracted Voldemort's attention), focusing (in HBP) on the plan to kill Dumbledore.

I hope to find more parts in the books that make sense when you consider Lily.

Snape love was pure and selfless because he spent his entire life in remorse for having caused Lily's death, and he turned Spy for the order only to protect Harry, who was the son of his love. If it wasn't true love Snape wouldn't have bothered to make such a sacrifice. He wouldn't have agreed to live such a dangerous life. But he did, and this shows that his love was true.

I agree. And anyway, if anyone needs anymore proof of the purity of his love, you don't really get much more pure than a silver doe patronus....do you?

But his love for Lily wasn't pure. I get the impression it was what Slughorn called "obsessive love", that powerful and dirty idea. He looked at her "greedily". He wanted her because he was stubborn, because she was attractive physically and mentally and powerful. It was an angry, jealous love. I guess it's better to base a life of difficult double agent work on this half-love than on, say, power or money or fame or fear, but only a little better.

hey,

i rather agree with the others - obsessive love, that's what drove the Baron to kill Ravenclaw's daughter, because he couldn't have her. Snape wouldn't have minded that Lily was killed AFTER she decided to marry James instead of him (Snape), wouldn't it? But he wanted to spare her, even though she "betrayed" him like that. he really really truly loved her.

he also needed to be such a mean person to play his role well, otherwise it would have been way to dangerous for him, being in Voldemorts company - and also dangerous for the "greater good".

How did he keep from killing Wormtail?

He managed that because of personal guilt. He thought that it was his fault that Lily had died, if he hadn't told Voldemort about the Prophecy in the first place he wouldn't have decided to break Wormtail to his side and hence Lily wouldn't have died. It was all initiated after he told Voldemort about the Prophecy, so he considered himself the real culprit. ;)

you don't really get much more pure than a silver doe patronus....do you?

No, and that has been symbolized by Tonks as well.

Maybe at that point he had a lot more on his mind: the return of Voldemort, trying to play his part as spy (killing Wormtail might have attracted Voldemort's attention), focusing (in HBP) on the plan to kill Dumbledore.

exactly, after all, Wormtail was just a side kick - it was Voldemort who actually killed Lily, who didn't spare her. If Snape would have killed Wormtail, the whole plan (everything he agreed on with Dumbledore) would have been wasted, everything.

Snape played one of the most important roles in bringing Voldemort down - he couldn't give in to his feelings towards Wormtail, it would have ruined everything.

i so look forward to reading all books with this whole different perspective on everything, it will be sooo cool and eye opening, yeah :tu:

No, and that has been symbolized by Tonks as well.

Good point. Once again Jo leaves her trails well! It is interesting to note that Snape calls Tonk's patronus weak. Is he having a go at Lupin (likely) or is he admitting that his love for Lily makes him weak...? I sincerely hope its the former. The latter is just to depressing. The one pure, good part of him and he considers it weak? :no:

The one pure, good part of him and he considers it weak?

He has always done that, hasn't he....Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves...

Good point. Once again Jo leaves her trails well! It is interesting to note that Snape calls Tonk's patronus weak. Is he having a go at Lupin (likely) or is he admitting that his love for Lily makes him weak...? I sincerely hope its the former. The latter is just to depressing. The one pure, good part of him and he considers it weak? :no:

Guess he was wrong on this one after all. Voldemort never loved anyone, therefore he ended up dead. Snape, trying to hide his love, ended up dead as well. Woah, love's all over the place in this one. :lol:

Snape seems to be a very confusing/questioning subject...good or evil? love or lust/friends. I know what he did in the past was awful. Being terrible to Harry and always looking like the world was about to end...plus the greasy hair. But looking past the greasy hair (coz who cares its who he was) and remember, he saved Harry and helped Harry numerous times and has Harry ever thanked him? Has Harry ever helped Snape? No. Harry was just as bad as Snape...he disrespected Snape and caused Snape trouble...I think Snape did love Lily and I'm wondering if many people that say he didnt...are just saying it because they think he was to heartless or had not been good enough to change for her before her death. I'm wondering this because of what people said here...but heaps of my friends are saying..."no it wasn't love it was just lust" (we're studying Romeo and Juliet right now) or "Snape was too much of an *****hole to love or care about anyone." I believe he loved Lily...after all those years he still thought about her and cried over her letter...and her eyes were the last he wanted to see before he died. And love is what it sounds like JKR is trying to portray between the two......alright....I'll go then.....*walks off*

He has always done that, hasn't he....Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves...Just to be picky... I don't think that Snape believed love was weak - Voldemort believed that - I think that Snape believed that to show your love was weak - hence the fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves (show their love) as opposed to fools who love
Snape loved Lily but always hid it, and that was his undoing.

I wasn't sold on the idea of Snape being in love with Lily before I read Deathly Hallows. It just seemed wildly unlikely what with the way Snape treated Harry but I never really stopped to put myself in his shoes...

Snapes had such a horrendous life that you can almost forgive him for being a bit twisted in his outlook on life. His treatment of Harry is almost understandable when you look back at how he was brought up and the way the Marauders treated him (especially James and Sirius) and factor in the fact that Harry looks exactly like James (except his eyes... Now we know why that was such a big deal!) and you have a cause for a bit of dislike.

I have to say The Princes Tale was one of the parts in the book that made me cry the most. However I do find it hard to like Snape still as after all he was quite willing to let both Harry and James die just so long as Lily was protected. Like I said... Slightly twisted outlook...

The thing that still gets me though about that whole storyline is that Snape died thinking that Harry wasn't going to survive. He never knew that Lily was going to carry on living through him. That makes me incredibly sad...

Sorry. My point is just that the family doesn't make the man. Snape doesn't have an excuse. He could have chosen to change for Lily. So he is not a better person in my eyes just because he loved her.

But through his actions, I am sure it is shown that he didn't just love Lily selfishly. He loved her, so much that he cared for her child even though the father was his most bitter enemy, and grown to care for others, to think about the 'Greater Good'.

I doubt the only people Snape cared about was Lily, or even Dumbledore. He showed a progress throughout Prince's Tale, and unless you missed it, you can see that he acted like a guardian for Harry and friends, for the students in Hogwarts after he became the headmaster.

He has always done that, hasn't he....Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves...

This quote proves that he thinks displaying his feelings for Lily is foolish, not that the feelings themsleves are weak...

Family molds a person, but it doesn't finalize a person. Snape only changed to one person, maybe two if you count Dumbledore. He treated everyone else terribly. Even defenseless children who had done nothing to harm him.

Family i think in a way does make a person. or moulded his character i should say. after all he wasnt exactly treated with care or kindness as a child, it was probably not in his nature to treat others kindly too. but Love was probably something that he craved. so having someone to love ,or to have someone to treat him kindly or as an equal, probably became the basis for his Love for lily and maybe for his loyalty to dumbledore.

I dont think he meant to hurt the kids. whatever happened was unavoidable if you have death eaters running the school and he needed to maintain the pretence of loyalty to voldemort. after all it was his final promise to dumbledore that he would take over the school and protect it.

I was shocked by the revelation that he loved Lily, just because I thought it was a cliche born in fan fiction and could never happen. I thought they could have been friends, because Lily seemed like the kind of person who be friends with someone because of who they are, not where they came from or who they associated with. I thoguht the fact they were friends before Hogwarts was both beautiful, because of how happy it made Snape (and let's face it, he had a pretty crummy childhood, he deserved at least one nice friend), but it was also sad because in a way it was the reason for the falling out between Lily and Petunia.

But I can see how losing Lily, the girl he loved and the one good thing in his life, could have sealed the deal, so to speak, for him going over to the Death Eaters. Especially since he lost her to his worst enemy at school.

I can also imagine, as I know quite a few people have already said in this thread, that it must have been hard for him be around Harry, especially when Harry acted so much like his father and never, in the whole series, ever gave Snape the benefit of the doubt or any form of respect. However, I think that if Snape truly loved Lily so much that he changed sides in the war, at great risk to himself, that he could have been nicer to Harry (nice doesn't really sum it up properly, but a better word is currently alluding me). Especially in the Occulmens lessons. Those were so important to Harry's safety, yet Snape couldn't differentiate Harry from his father and so the lessons were a total hash job. However, the revelation he loved Lily really sheds new light on why he was so angry Harry saw that particular memory...

All that said, I really loved 'The Prince's Tale'. Seeing Snape's progression from mistreated child, to shy friend, to death eater, to spy, to...well, really, a truly good, brave man (I cried when Harry was told his son he was named after a brave Slytherin...) was just amazing and I really take my hat off to Jo for the brilliant way she set it all up. I have decided that I totally and utterly love Serverus Snape!

(N.B. Sorry this is so long, I'm finishing up now!!)

My final thought on the subject is, that though Lily might not have liked the way he treated Harry at school sometimes, I think she would have understood the reasons behind it, and been pleased firstly that he was trying to save her son, and secondly that he made the right choices. My one wish for Snape is that he meets Lily in the wizarding afterlife and they can finally make up :)

Family i think in a way does make a person. or moulded his character i should say. after all he wasnt exactly treated with care or kindness as a child, it was probably not in his nature to treat others kindly too. but Love was probably something that he craved. so having someone to love ,or to have someone to treat him kindly or as an equal, probably became the basis for his Love for lily and maybe for his loyalty to dumbledore.

I totally agree!

It strikes me that Snape's childhood was very similar to Harry's in some ways.
Both of them grew up without love, without any kind of friends or social integration before going to Hogwarts. Contrast that with the kind of loving stable magical environment the Weasleys provide for their children.
Really it's a wonder that Harry is able to function socially when he arrives at Hogwarts.

Snape, when he was telling Lily about going to Hogwarts, seemed very excited at the prospect of going to school. Imagine how he felt when he got there and he didn't fit in, and was bullied. It was enough to make him shut himself off from others for good.

He was jealous of James for his confidence and popularity, and of course because of Lily. I think that he sees that same confidence in Harry, and hates him for it.

Both Harry and Snape grew up rejected by those around them. The difference is that Harry never believed what the Dursleys told him about himself - that he was a wicked, disturbed boy. He believes in himself.
Snape, however, shows every sign of having believed what people said about him. He saw himself as a misfit, and didn't think he was god enough for Lily.

That's my 2 cents anyway :upset:

My final thought on the subject is, that though Lily might not have liked the way he treated Harry at school sometimes, I think she would have understood the reasons behind it,

If she would have then I would find it even more sickening than the fact that she maintained their friendship even when he was calling others mudblood and waited only till he called HER mudblood to break off.
she would just not have "liked" the way snape treated harry? not hated it?

For me the whole Snape loving Lily endlessly thing is a bit much just because of the penance he endured for the rest of his life for it.

BUT now looking back, I'm wondering if maybe we can see Snape as crying over Lily's letter and picture not just for this (obsessive) love for her but also for the loss of anyone at all to be his friend at that moment in time.... because we have to keep in mind that at that particular moment when he would have went back to Sirius's house, he had already killed DD, the Order hated him, the Death Eaters were a constant threat since at any moment he could be found out and killed, and all he had was DD's portrait that seemed to be able to carry on a conversation as if he was still alive but still, I would assume, could not be a confidant like a real human would have been.
So Snape was completely and utterly alone. He had been his whole life, but at this point in the story he seems more isolate from everyone than at any other time, having absolutely no one to confide in and living in constant fear and the cherry on top of that lovely sundae being that absolutely everyone hated him and (what seemed to be something that mattered to him greatly) thinking him a coward.
And, also at that moment, if ever there was a time of needing others to stand with you, it would have been then when so much caos was happening around him but instead he recieved isolation.

So, maybe, just maybe, he was also crying for the loss of anyone to turn to, the feeling of total aloneness, etc. and not just solely Lily's love but her friendship as well - at least that's what I choose to believe because simply crying over a piece of paper because it had her name on it seems a lot cheesy even for someone with undying love.

I totally agree!

It strikes me that Snape's childhood was very similar to Harry's in some ways.
Both of them grew up without love, without any kind of friends or social integration before going to Hogwarts. Contrast that with the kind of loving stable magical environment the Weasleys provide for their children.
Really it's a wonder that Harry is able to function socially when he arrives at Hogwarts.

Harry did receive a lot of love during his first year from his parents and scientists around the world agree that this is the most vunerable time in your childhood and the most important as far as bonding and everything goes.

Neither Snape nor Voldemort had that advantage or even the knowledge that anyone loved them at any point of their lifes.

I think what surprised me most about the whole Snape/Lily thing and him loving her is that he could still love her so much even after she was dead, and I think it's important that JKR only revealed this in the seventh book, because the seventh, more than any of the others, emphasizes the power of love. And while Snape's love wasn't exactly as selfless as Harry's(he was content to let Harry die to save Lily), it was still powerful enough to let him risk his life protecting Harry, even though he did not like him. And I can understand how that would work, Snape hating Harry because he is James's son and not his but protecting him for Lily. That's a rather admirable thing to do, I must say I respect Snape much more now.

The whole Snape/Lily thing also explains why Snape despised Sirius so much in GOF and how at the end he really wanted Sirius to get the dementors kiss. It was because Snape thought that Sirius was the one that deceived the Potters - deceived Lily.
Oh yes! I was always a bit confused by how completely Snape lost it in that Shrieking Shack scene, and finally it makes sense. Good catch, thank you.

I have a question: Whose eyes were full of tears: Dumbledore's or Snape's?
Well, as far as I can tell, the sentence structure implies that it was Dumbledore's eyes.

As I was reading through this book and theories from this board kept coming to fruition, I kept giggling to myself and thinking; It looks almost as though she came onto the forums, read the theories, chose the ones she liked and added them into the story. Just to clarify, I am not saying that is what I happened, I just found myselfing thinking it a few times and laughing.:err:
Naah, we are just really good at putting clues together and making good guesses! :tu: :tu:

But his love for Lily wasn't pure. I get the impression it was what Slughorn called "obsessive love", that powerful and dirty idea. He looked at her "greedily". He wanted her because he was stubborn, because she was attractive physically and mentally and powerful. It was an angry, jealous love. I guess it's better to base a life of difficult double agent work on this half-love than on, say, power or money or fame or fear, but only a little better.

OK, so maybe I just interprete the word 'obsessive' differently. I would call it obsessive love, I think it would have to be that to still be this strong 16 years after her death, but I do not see how that makes it dirty. If he had stalked her or something like that, that would have been creepy (or dirty, if you will).
To me, 'obsessive' just means 'really, really strong' and basically something he literally can't help feeling or can't 'get over'.
I am certain that he was painfully jealous of James once it became clear Lily had changed her mind about him. Can you imagine just how horrible it must have been for Severus to owe his life to the man who had 'taken' Lily from him?
And he was certainly frightened of loosing her. He would have to be, given that she was pretty and popular, and he wasn't. So jealous love, yes, but angry? I don't really see that. He never tried to force her into anything.

My only response to all of this is something I can't tell my husband yet because he's still reading.
[removed by staff - gloating]

I said this was the case after reading OOTP and had many folks (including my husband) disagree with me.

K...I feel better now! :p

I read somewhere that it was predictable, so it was a bad part of the book.
False, in my opinion: the fact that somebody predicted it means that Rowling knew what her was doing, and it would have been a strange thing if nobody had thought at this. During the books you have evidence of this fact, you remember what Snape did when he met harry for the first time?
He looked into his eyes ^_^

It's a fantastic character, really, maybe the better of the book.
I think he would be a "nerd" in the muggle world. Someone with a great culture that is not good in relationship, that doesn't want to show himself to the world. Fantastic.

Oh, I thought at him when I "saw" that doe in the forest.
I thought at him too when I saw the little handwriting in the Prince's Book... well, I think that is one of the bad thing of reading each book ten times! :D

I've found amazing that Snape is the only one that brings out of Voldemort a nice thing : "I regret".

Severus, that in latin means inflexible,strict, has been respected and feared, but never truly loved.

maybe if discovered in time a Charm to clean his hair ... :whistle:

the saddest part is that without its obsession, no one could have fouled voldemort and protected Harry so well.

I've found amazing that Snape is the only one that brings out of Voldemort a nice thing : "I regret".

In words, because Voldemort doesn't regret at all. The only thing that matters to him, in that moment, it's being the Elder Wand's master.
Rowling says it also, i don't have the exact quote...

definitely a surprising relationship. i've heard rumours about it but i just couldn't believe it until i actually read over that part about 3 times! But it was so sweet! i actually cried in this chapter cos i just thought it was amazing how someone like Snape could love someone else so much. I don't think Lily was aware of Snape's feelings, but still, poor Severus.

My only response to all of this is something I can't tell my husband yet because he's still reading.

I said this was the case after reading OOTP and had many folks (including my husband) disagree with me.

K...I feel better now! :p

There's a thread (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108086) for stating what one guessed correctly.

[Staff edit: No gloating allowed. In fact, gloating may result in warning points.]

I really don't think Snape's love was obsessive in a selfish or solely lustful way. He wouldn't have protected Harry if it was, and I think his nastiness to others was simply bitterness and incapability of showing love. I think the difference with Lily was that she could see something good in someone when others couldn't so he must have felt safer with her (Lupin says so in PoA). His behaviour to Harry seems to be mostly pride and pain to me, since he loved Lily so much I guess he felt Harry should have been his son, not James (who really treated Snape badly, I think). His indignation on Harry's behalf towards Dumbledore - about leading Harry to death like a pig to slaughter - shows he actually cared for Lily and therefore her son. Besides, how could it be anything but real love if his patronus changed, didn't we see proof of this with Tonks' patronus? Maybe it's just really weird thinking of Snape as really loving someone and being good somewhere deep down if you never liked him, I guess there's a big divided camp there between Snape-love and Snape-hate (I fell in love at the end of book one; so that explains my post :)) (I think he was truly good, we all need something to be good and for Snape it turned out to be a lost love, why does that make it any less good? And he tried to help others as well, in small ways. When the DA broke into his office and stole the fake sword, Phineas Nigellus tells Hermione and Harry -and a sulking Ron- that they were sent to the forest with Hagrid. If he'd really been evil, he would've had them tortured by the two assistants he had at Hogwarts, which was apparently punishment a la mode for those two. Going to the forest is not so bad a thing if Hagrid's with you.;))

Always. With tears in his eyes as he said it. Made me cry...again.

Can I just point out that I think it was Dumbledore with tears in his eyes?

I'm pretty sure it is..

*digs it out*

"Dumbledore watched her fly away, and as her silvery glow faded he turned back to Snape, and his eyes were full of tears."

I read that as Dumbledore with tears in his eyes.. As Harry is watching Dumbledore TURN towards Snape and "his eyes were full of tears."

Me and a friend have been debating this for a while.. We think it could be either/or.. But I keep bringing it up and no one else sees the ahem..Crux of the problem like me and my friend :P.

Anyone shed any kind of grammatical light on this one, pretty please? :P

I was right and I am so happy about it! I knew he was not bad, but torn between words. And I also new that he killed DD after DD's orders! I was only hoping that DD was somehow alive only to give Voldm an illusion of safety, but hey that's ok.
SNAPES RULES!!!!!!!! (and to think I am 32 years old!!!!)

But, that is why he hated James and Harry. James "won" Lily's heart. But I also think, it pained Snape to even look at Harry. Harry is the reason that Lily died. Snape is reminded every time he looks at Harry that the only woman he loved, loved someone else, and died loving and protecting their child. The pain it must have been to just even have Harry in the same room as him. It was torture to him.

I think your right. Snape was also totally unable to be truthfull to Lily about how he felt. Looking back at how you chose not to do something that vitally important is agony in itself.

Delighted to be here discussing this enchanting, puzzling, thought-provoking book.

Oooh, hell, this is sad - but here is my question:

When Snape lay dying, with Harry beside him, he gave out his memory.

He said "Look at me". Was that -- look at my memories, look at my life, look at me, look at who I am, look at all of my life, how I have been Dumbledore's man, at his side, all this time.

Or was it "Look at me" so that I can see Lily's eyes once more before I die?

Love love love, how you brought this question to everyones attention. I didn't even think of Snapes last words meaning anything but "I want to see Lily's eyes" but after thinking about it more i think that it was ment as look at me in every sense of the word.

I still don't get why "Snape's worst memory" was, in fact, his worst memory. Pre-DH, not knowing of his feelings for her, I assumed that, having lived through the first war, surely he'd seen something worse. Now, post-DH, I would think that his worst memory would be finding out that she had been killed. I was obviously wrong before and am still wrong. :shrug:

It was Snape's worst memory because of the deep regret he felt for hurting his BFF and love of his life. When he said this he was very remorseful and went to find Lily to apologize. Of course being involved in the Dark Arts was brining out these evil thoughts. I personally don't think that he cared that James, Sirius & Lupin teased him, all he cared about was Lily.

I was talking to my friend about Snape and Lily and she had thought they were going out, that there was more to their relationship than just friendship. I think, however, that it was platonic, though obviously Snape wanted more. What do you think the full extent of their relationship was, and did they have more close contact after the Mudblood incident?
I'm looking forward to reading some good Snape/Lily fanfic...:)

It's funny, when I first read Philosopher's Stone and learned that James and Snape hated each other, my very first instinctive thought was, hmm I wonder if it had something to do with Harry's mother. Simply because it's such a classic twist, :cool:

I then forgot all about it and only jumped on the Snape/Lily bandwagon after Dumbledore told Harry in HBP that Snape suffered tremendous remorse when he realised that Voldemort was going after Harry's parents. I figured that since there was no chance in hell Snape was going to feel remorse over James the process of elimination left Lily. And I won't deny that the idea tickled me enormously. Tragic unrequited love? Yes please!

What I didn't really expect though was the whole childhood friendship aspect. My biggest reservation was that I just couldn't see how JKR was going to find the space to show the friendship unfold and then come to an end in a novel that had gazillion loose ends to tie up already. But she handled that brilliantly by simply giving Snape his own chapter that neatly explained everything through the Best Exposition Device Ever, a.k.a. the Pensieve. And, in retrospective, the childhood connection before Lily and Snape got to Hogwarts and ended up in opposing Houses makes so much more sense. My own guess was that Snape developed feelings for Lily somewhere in their sixth year, but of course this scenario would have had a whole lot more obstacles than if Snape knew Lily already before Hogwarts.

Though I fully expected the Snape-loved-Lily twist, the Prince's Tale chapter was incredibly poignant to read. I liked the way JKR underlined the fact that loving Lily did not automatically make Snape a good person, and that it had a darker, selfish aspect in that he only thought of Lily's survival and didn't care about the people she loved - hence DD's "you disgust me". But I think that the flashbacks showed that, in the later years at least, Snape wasn't in it just because of Lily and protecting her son. Yeah, he lost it when Dumbledore revealed to him that Harry was always meant to die and Snape only helped to keep him alive till a certain time - but instead of going, stuff you old man I'm outta here, Snape still did everything Dumbledore asked him to.

i didn't see the love connection but in retrospect it does make alot of sense. im glad that severus was not evil as i first suspected but i reallty wish he could have spoken with harry.

even though severus felt really guilty and responsible for the deaths of james and lily, for him to undertake such a daunting and un-rewarding task does seem been hard to believe.
he must have been more thatn just in love with lily, severus must have been obsessed by her.

i believe that lily probably never really considered snape a true friend but must have felt sorry for him, because of his up bringing and the way he was treated by the others but i in no way believe that she ever loved him.

Tragic unrequited love? Yes please!



lol, yes please, but bring the wads of tissues! The TEARS. :(

Anyway, I also believed in the Snape and Lily theory (and shout out to those who have been pushing it, despite ridicule, ever since OoTP!) but for some reason I never stopped to think they could be childhood friends, I don't know why. Looking back the red-haired girl laughing in Snape's memories in book 5 should have made it pretty obvious.

i believe that lily probably never really considered snape a true friend but must have felt sorry for him, because of his up bringing and the way he was treated by the others but i in no way believe that she ever loved him.
Lily herself said that they were best friends. And JKR has been quoted as saying that Snape has been loved. It seems apparent from Snape's childhood that the love wasn't coming from his parents.

Anyway, I also believed in the Snape and Lily theory (and shout out to those who have been pushing it, despite ridicule, ever since OoTP!) but for some reason I never stopped to think they could be childhood friends, I don't know why. Looking back the red-haired girl laughing in Snape's memories in book 5 should have made it pretty obvious.
In the memory, the girl's hair color wasn't specified, which is why those of us who believed it was Lily were told it couldn't be or JKR would have mentioned red hair. I always thought we were way too conditioned to think Lily (or Ginny) when we hear red hair and JKR would totally have tipped her hand by being so specific. I still maintain that it was Lily and it was a happy memory of two kids having fun together. The imagery of a bucking broomstick is very evocative of childsplay (even muggle childsplay), and JKR used the very clever and crucial "laughing as" in that line rather than "laughing at." Huge difference there.

Love love love, how you brought this question to everyones attention. I didn't even think of Snapes last words meaning anything but "I want to see Lily's eyes" but after thinking about it more i think that it was ment as look at me in every sense of the word.

I think Snape wanted Harry to see what and who he was, and just for himself to see those eyes again of the woman he loved. I think he died in a peaceful state of mind, well sort of I guess. He lived for Lily, he died for Harry.

Lily herself said that they were best friends. And JKR has been quoted as saying that Snape has been loved. It seems apparent from Snape's childhood that the love wasn't coming from his parents.




Oh good point, I forgot about that JKR quote! I hope this means Lily DID love Severus. Although it could have been his mother I suppose but I hope it's Lily. What I want to know though, is did their relationship go further than friendship?

I posted this as a separate topic, but due to Snape topics being closed for the time being, other than the three that have been allowed, the topic was closed. So now, I'm asking here because this seems the most appropriate place for this, since people have been talking about what Snape meant when he said "look.....at.....me".

I'm sort of curious about whether people think that Harry revealed Snapes story to anyone else? Particularly, his love for and friendship with Lily. There's no solid evidence either way that I could recall, but I will definitely pay more attention to this when I reread the book again.

It can be presumed that people now know and understand that Snape really was good, otherwise I don't think Ginny would have agreed to give her son the middle name Severus, but just because people know that he was actually good doesn't mean that Harry had to reveal his love for Lily. Just like Dumbledore, Harry could have maintained that Snape was good, and that he trusted everything that Snape ever did, without actually revealing his reason for that trust. At that point, people would have trusted Harry's word and taken it for what it was, because he, after all, had just saved the wizarding world from the worst evil it had ever known.

Just curious what everyone thinks. I personally would like to think that Harry kept Snapes love for Lily a secret out of respect, just as Dumbledore kept the secret.

Oh good point, I forgot about that JKR quote! I hope this means Lily DID love Severus. Although it could have been his mother I suppose but I hope it's Lily.

It also fits with JKR saying that having been loved made him more culpable. I mean, his best friend for about 7 years was a muggle-born witch, and he still joined the Death Eaters! :no:

What I want to know though, is did their relationship go further than friendship?
I don't think so, but we don't know for certain, do we?
I find it difficult to imagine Lily developing romantic feelings for Severus, and JKR sort of indicated that Lily was already not exactly not interested in James by the time of 'Snape's Worst Memory' (hope you know what I mean). Then again, it is also a continued principle of JKR that the partners people end up with eventually are not their first love interests (Cho Chang, Krum, Lavender...).

Just curious what everyone thinks. I personally would like to think that Harry kept Snapes love for Lily a secret out of respect, just as Dumbledore kept the secret.

He told Voldy in the Great Hall in front of the whole school! I personally feel Snape, after all he did would want everyone to know the truth...

What I want to know though, is did their relationship go further than friendship?
I don't think that it did, but I think we're very much led to wonder "what if" with regard to the relationship. Even some things associated with James seem to indicate that he took Snape's rightful place in Lily's life, in my opinion. James' name means "supplanter," and there's also that imagery in OotP where James has doodled Lily's initials inside a snitch, followed by him playing with a snitch he has stolen. There isn't a soul in any one of the books who ever says that Lily loved James. She isn't even said to have fallen in love with him in 7th year -- we're merely told she started dating him then. I feel the James/Lily relationship and origins were very much downplayed in order to, as I said, encourage the "what if's" with regard to Severus and Lily.

I'm sort of curious about whether people think that Harry revealed Snapes story to anyone else? Particularly, his love for and friendship with Lily. There's no solid evidence either way that I could recall, but I will definitely pay more attention to this when I reread the book again.

Harry mentions it when he's facing down Voldermort at the end. UK version P593

"Snapes Patronus was a doe the same as my mother's, because he loved her for nearly all of his life, from the time when they were children."

It goes on to talk about how Snape was Dumbledores spy from the moment Voldermort threatened to kill her.

Harry mentions it when he's facing down Voldermort at the end. UK version P593

"Snapes Patronus was a doe the same as my mother's, because he loved her for nearly all of his life, from the time when they were children."

It goes on to talk about how Snape was Dumbledores spy from the moment Voldermort threatened to kill her.

Ok, makes sense. I didn't recall what Harry actually said - whether he actually mentioned the part about Snape loving Lily. I knew he had revealed that Snape was good, just couldn't remember if he specifically mentioned the reason.

Precisely. :tu:
You think the idea was popular? Wow -- that's a different take on it. I don't follow Harry Potter fanfiction of any kind, but here on probably the largest Harry Potter discussion forum, the topic was so volatile that it was banned. I think we pro-Snape/Lily folks were always vastly outnumbered.

The invisibility cloak was introduced in the first book.
Well I actually don't read the fanfiction on this board, so I'm not sure what happens here. But on fanfiction.net it's immensly popular, so I was basing it off that.

And true, the cloak was there, but I feel like it would have been better if she put more clues and introduced the Deathly Hollows in maybe book five or six...more slowly instead of WHAM! Here they are!

I don't think she "lied" either. :rolleyes:
I never said she lied.

It's too bad Snape couldn't see the Lily in Harry instead of just the James.
I think he probably did see the Lily in Harry though, which might be why he was so resentful. Think about it, if you looked at a child and was reminded of his/her mother so much that you realized, "this could have been my child", wouldn't you be resentful? And maybe he also hated how he saw so much Lily centered within the James coating. Harry is a carbon copy of James except for the eyes, so it's like the James is swallowing and encroaching every side of him almost. Maybe Snape saw it that way, and couldn't bear to see actual proof of Lily and James' love.

He told Voldy in the Great Hall in front of the whole school! I personally feel Snape, after all he did would want everyone to know the truth...

I know, I was quite surprised Harry went into that "downgrade" on Voldemort, it was entertaining though. I guess Harry was done with secrets and didn't care if the whole school knew Snape loved his mother. I feel happy he could finally just not care anymore, though I don't know if Snape would of appreciated him telling everyone about his feelings and relationship problems. Lol :lol:

I don't think that it did, but I think we're very much led to wonder "what if" with regard to the relationship. Even some things associated with James seem to indicate that he took Snape's rightful place in Lily's life, in my opinion. James' name means "supplanter," and there's also that imagery in OotP where James has doodled Lily's initials inside a snitch, followed by him playing with a snitch he has stolen. There isn't a soul in any one of the books who ever says that Lily loved James. She isn't even said to have fallen in love with him in 7th year -- we're merely told she started dating him then. I feel the James/Lily relationship and origins were very much downplayed in order to, as I said, encourage the "what if's" with regard to Severus and Lily.

I suppose we do just have to wonder but I personally think there was more to their relationship than we see in the Pensieve. Snape was dying and didn't have the time to give Harry everything, he probably gave him the bare essentials, and left out more private stuff, maybe memories showing him telling Lily he loves her, and other things like that. I'm not saying they had an intense physical relationship or anything but there has to be more than just what we saw for Snape to have a reason to carry his torch for so long. As for James, I think Lily must have loved him and this is where the tragedy starts in the love story, she has chosen James and Snape must think, well what is the point of turning my back on dark magic now? But he still loves her. I would love to have more detail on this and particularly to know the last time they spoke or saw each other bfore she died.

"But I forgot – another old man’s mistake – that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father – I was wrong."

Those occlumency lessons were, also in Dumbledore's words, "a complete fiasco." If ever there was an opportunity for true redemption, those lessons were it and yet it never happened.

I'm sorry. I still don't see DH as Snape's "redemption." Just as he lived at once in two worlds in his role as double-agent, so his relationship with Harry was dominated by his hatred of James and also his love for Lily. In the end, the hatred won out. Snape was horrible to Harry. He did everything he could to get him kicked out of school, which can never be construed as a man determined to protect Lily's son. I think Harry, for Snape, was little more than a punching bag with which to battle the latter's hatred for Harry's father.

Also, just to add to something HagathaChristie (and others) said, in fairness to the Lily/Snape shippers, they were scoffed at for a long time and while I think a lot of people liked the theory or the idea of it, not many people believed it. I loved the idea and hoped it was true but even I wasn't sure if JKR would do it. When I found out I was so happy because it's a brilliant storyline. What did the Snape/Lily theorists feel like when they realised they were right all along? Great, I imagine :)

I always believed there was a relationship of some kind between Snape and Lily, though I never for a minute considered them as a couple. I guessed that Snape's love for Lily was not returned, or at least not in the way he desired.

What did the Snape/Lily theorists feel like when they realised they were right all along? Great, I imagine

Yes, I was happy because I think that it was the only way to "complete" the snape character.
It was so absurd that he didn't attack harry's mother during his lessons, even if she was a "mudblood", while he spoke about James everytime.
This was the only way to explain it.

I'm sorry. I still don't see DH as Snape's "redemption." Just as he lived at once in two worlds in his role as double-agent, so his relationship with Harry was dominated by his hatred of James and also his love for Lily. In the end, the hatred won out. Snape was horrible to Harry. He did everything he could to get him kicked out of school, which can never be construed as a man determined to protect Lily's son. I think Harry, for Snape, was little more than a punching bag with which to battle the latter's hatred for Harry's father.
Yet Snape saved Harry from Quirrel in PS, and when it came down to it, at the end, he gave Harry the truth. He did as Dumbledore asked, and he gave Harry the tools to understand and walk into the final battle with his decisions made. While I agree Snape was horrible over the course of the books, I think it was because he was so conflicted - he loved Lily, but hated James, and Harry represented everything he could have had, had he made better choices. I think some of the hatred he bestowed on Harry was actually self-loathing and regret, and I can't help but feel sorry for him. When it counted though, he did what he could to protect Harry in life or death situations, and I think that is what brings his redemption.

I think it was an excellant closer to the series, it has everything out in the open after so long.

It was so absurd that he didn't attack harry's mother during his lessons, even if she was a "mudblood", while he spoke about James everytime.
This was the only way to explain it.

True, that. Harry was always called "Your father's son" as if James was to blame for any spirit Harry might have, when in fact he was probably just reacting to Harry's resemblance to his father and hating Harry for living while Lily had died.

Lotta clues there. I never got into the S/L 'shipping threads because I was a little afraid someone would say was I was thinking (Snape was Harry's real dad). Could NOT have handled that one... :no:

Also, just to add to something HagathaChristie (and others) said, in fairness to the Lily/Snape shippers, they were scoffed at for a long time and while I think a lot of people liked the theory or the idea of it, not many people believed it. I loved the idea and hoped it was true but even I wasn't sure if JKR would do it. When I found out I was so happy because it's a brilliant storyline. What did the Snape/Lily theorists feel like when they realised they were right all along? Great, I imagine :)

I'd been prepared to join the Harry/Hermione shippers for solace if Snape/Lily was proven wrong!

Anyway, about Snape being loved, which was brought up....I figure Lily loved him as a friend. I wonder, are we supposed to think only one person loved him? We were shown that he was neglected by both parents. However, his mother did tell him all about the wizarding world and took him to the platform, and I have trouble believing she was around yet didn't love her son at all.

I had no idea about the Snape/Lily relationship before school, I figured he loved her, but didn't start until they both where in school. But now that I know they knew each other before hand, it makes even more sense. I think that Lily's attraction to Snape would be that he did magic as well, and was the one that told her she does it too. To find out that you are different AND to find someone that is different like you would be a strong attraction towards each other. I think Lily could see the good in Snape, even after he started to hang out with the future DE's. I would think that Harry would be Snapes worse nightmare. To ALWAYS be reminded of his one love that he lost, because of HIS actions, because of Harry's eyes and to also be reminded that Harry is James son, someone that caused Snape a great deal of pain and embarrassment and someone that took Lily from Snape, would be the double edged sword that would rule his life.


Lotta clues there. I never got into the S/L 'shipping threads because I was a little afraid someone would say was I was thinking (Snape was Harry's real dad). Could NOT have handled that one... :no:

That thought did enter my head, but Harry looked to much like James for that to ever have been true. And that he did look just like his Dad was a point made from day one. Same with him having Lilys eyes. So I am certain that we can without a doubt know that James and Lily are Harrys parents.

Yet Snape saved Harry from Quirrel in PS, and when it came down to it, at the end, he gave Harry the truth. He did as Dumbledore asked, and he gave Harry the tools to understand and walk into the final battle with his decisions made. While I agree Snape was horrible over the course of the books, I think it was because he was so conflicted - he loved Lily, but hated James, and Harry represented everything he could have had, had he made better choices. I think some of the hatred he bestowed on Harry was actually self-loathing and regret, and I can't help but feel sorry for him. When it counted though, he did what he could to protect Harry in life or death situations, and I think that is what brings his redemption.

Did Snape save Harry from Quirrel - or did Dumbledore?

I will concede that Snape's last conversation with Voldemort, in which he asked repeatedly to be allowed to fetch Harry, was an attempt to give Harry the information Dumbledore had instructed him to pass on. The way he continued to stare at the snake was a dead giveaway. In the end, he did the right thing.

Do you remember Petunia in Order of the Phoenix?

"They guard the wizard prison, Azkban" said Aunt Petunia.
...
I heard - that awful boy - telling her about them - years ago'"

Yes, he was really an awful boy... but he wasn't James :P

Anyway, about Snape being loved, which was brought up....I figure Lily loved him as a friend.

Sure.

Did Snape save Harry from Quirrel - or did Dumbledore?

I will concede that Snape's last conversation with Voldemort, in which he asked repeatedly to be allowed to fetch Harry, was an attempt to give Harry the information Dumbledore had instructed him to pass on. The way he continued to stare at the snake was a dead giveaway. In the end, he did the right thing.
Was it in question that Snape saved Harry from Quirrel? I wasn't aware that there was any doubt. I thought in the books someone explained to Harry that Snape was muttering the counter curse (was it Snape himself who said that or Dumbledore?). How come you think it was Dumbledore, not Snape?

Oh yeah, the "awful boy" clue!!! Well done to the people who guessed that right! When I got to that bit in DH I couldn't help smiling at how clever the whole thing was done by Jo. Not that my smiling lasted long :(

I was not of the Lily/Snape relationship...guess I missed the boat on that, nor did I ever think that there would have been any type of relationship before Hogwarts. For all you who figured it out about Snape telling Lily about the dementors and Petunia over hearing it, well done! (Again, I still wouldn't have pictured it of them for anytime prior to schooling.)

So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts? To me, this one was completely shocking...surprising, and seeing a young Lily "flying" out of the swing...what images. Having Snape doing a sort of "stocking" of Lily was interesting. But I must say that my favorite part of all that was Snape, trying to explain to Lily that she was a witch was so funny! Or rather, her response was.

What do you think this friendship was based on? The friendship between young Snape and young Lily? I would say it had to do with like ability and someone to share it with. (Anything more than that I can't figure)

Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts? She was a loyal friend and hoped for the best in him.

How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin? That would have been worth being a fly on the wall. There must have been a lot of people unwilling to let a thing like that go, thus the secret meetings and the outburst on Snape's part of calling Lily a mudblood; probably the peer pressure of keeping up an image! And figting to be accepted.

How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory? Despite not being on the Lily/Snape wagon...here my theory was right...I beleived that it was his worst memory due to what he said, not what happened to him, however my reasons were incorrect. I thought it had more to do with him being a half-blood and not that he was hurting the one person he loved. Now when I go back to read it I will see it more accurately.

Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"? Probably, eventually, she didn't ever seem the type of person to hold a grudge. Especially against someone she considered her best friend. We saw that type of action mirrored in Harry's relationships, both with friends and enemies.

Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater? As I answered the previous question that she did, he might not have known it. I think the truer question might be would he have known that she forgave him if he had not become a death eater...

Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses? I think that is definately a possibility...but unlike some, I don't think that there would have necessarily been a love relationship...I never saw any evidence of Lily feeling anything more than a deep friendship for Snape. I saw more evidence of a potential love for James...similiar to that of Ron/Hermione...with the "driving me nuts and can't she/he see it my way, etc. kinda thing".

Did Snape save Harry from Quirrel - or did Dumbledore?

I will concede that Snape's last conversation with Voldemort, in which he asked repeatedly to be allowed to fetch Harry, was an attempt to give Harry the information Dumbledore had instructed him to pass on. The way he continued to stare at the snake was a dead giveaway. In the end, he did the right thing.

I can accept people's opinions when they believe Snape was nasty and mean to people but I think it is unarguable that Snape did the right thing not just at the end, but from the minute he realised what he did by telling VM the prophecy. DD knows it and eventually so does Harry, who recognises Snape's bravery. He saves Harry's life, protects all the students and risks his life "for the greater good"...on many occasions. If he was bad all along and only did the right thing at the end, he wouldn't have done any of the things he does in the whole series.

I can accept people's opinions when they believe Snape was nasty and mean to people but I think it is unarguable that Snape did the right thing not just at the end, but from the minute he realised what he did by telling VM the prophecy. DD knows it and eventually so does Harry, who recognises Snape's bravery. He saves Harry's life, protects all the students and risks his life "for the greater good"...on many occasions. If he was bad all along and only did the right thing at the end, he wouldn't have done any of the things he does in the whole series.

I agree. JKR made her feelings about Snape very clear in the end. I don't understand why some people feel there is so much ambiguity. Harry forgave Snape (although personally, I feel he realized there was nothing to forgive). Snape had a clear role: to protect Lily's son. That means he could never allow Harry to learn his secrets. Why did Occlumency lessons end? After DH, I believe that they ended because Harry came so close to learning Snape's true feelings, his true reasons for fighting in this war. Voldemort stated that Snape didn't love Lily. Voldemort was wrong. And Snape could not allow Voldemort to know that. And Harry couldn't know that either. I don't think Snape could bear Harry's pity (and furthermore, Harry's mind was vulnerable to Voldemort).

Although I have never been a Snape loves Lily believer, I will conceed that by the end of the book, I realized that Snape was allowed to die looking into Lily's eyes...I believe he deserved that much, and probably more...

I don't think Snape could bear Harry's pity (and furthermore, Harry's mind was vulnerable to Voldemort).

Definitely, Snape was very proud and maybe too proud at times, but again he had to keep his cover, if people knew about his true feelings he could say goodbye to spying on VM. To all those who criticise how he treated Harry and Neville, well firstly it added a whole lot to the books, we needed a teacher like Snape, and also it probably broke his heart to look at Harry every day and see the proof that Lily picked James.
I wonder though, did Sirius and Lupin know about Snape and Lily's friendship?

I realized that Snape was allowed to die looking into Lily's eyes...

I never realised that! :upset: That's bittersweet.

After the pensieve scene in the OotP, I began to suspect that Snape at least was in love with Lily. However, the revelation that both were friends prior to attending Hogwarts was quite unexpected. Now that I know the outcome, I see to whom Petunia was referring to when she said, "that horrible boy." Anyway, I think the background story explains much. Also, "The Prince's Tale" was beautifully written.

I wonder why Snape never tried to find anyone after Lily? .





I don't think he tried to find anyone after her because I don't think he wanted to feel that pain again. And he already started on a path of becoming what he wanted to be until his life was dedicated to personally preserving her memory and protecting her son.

I wonder though, did Sirius and Lupin know about Snape and Lily's friendship?

I think they probably knew about their friendship but I doubt they knew how deep his feelings for her ran. They always seemed unsure as to why Dumbledore trusted him but believed there to be a reason.

I wonder why Snape never tried to find anyone after Lily?.

Love, without getting too philosophical about it, is the greatest and most paniful thing. I can only imagine how it would feel to be responsible for the death of someone you love but isn't that reason enough to never open yourself up too loving someone else?

What did the Snape/Lily theorists feel like when they realised they were right all along? Great, I imagine :)
It is so wonderful really to see many fans taking a deeper look at Severus Snape. His redemption happened on that hilltop with the word "Anything."

ETA: Sorry you felt the need to edit my post, Jessica. I was answering a question and referring directly to a JKR quote: "Those who guessed correctly will be vindicated, and those who guessed wrongly will not, I hope, be too disappointed."


I wonder though, did Sirius and Lupin know about Snape and Lily's friendship?
They must have known. It is confirmed by both Severus & Lily that they were the best of friends. Snape was threatening to camp out in the hallway outside the Gryffindor Common Room until Lily came to speak to him. It's unimaginable that such a close friendship between a Slytherin and a Gryffindor wouldn't have been a frequent topic of conversation by the other students.

Actually, the fact that the relationship was kept such a secret was what caused me to believe that the friendship eventually became mutually romantic (ala' Ron & Hermione). People don't normally talk to kids about their parents' past romances, while mentioning a friendship isn't normally considered taboo. I couldn't see any other way JKR could explain why it was never mentioned to Harry by anyone who knew, which would have included Hagrid who isn't one for keeping secrets very well. I actually do think that is a tiny little plot hole as to why no one ever mentioned the friendship to Harry, but it's fine considering Snape and Harry immediately embarked on a relationship of mutual animosity. JKR did give us the "that awful boy" clue which was pretty easy considering how she flagged up the comment with Harry's response and Petunia's reaction. *shrug*

During the previous books, I haven't liked Severus, but in the Prince's Tale, I've changed my mind and I felt so sad that he had died. The relationship between he and Lily seems to me very beautiful and full of sense. I realise that "that awfull boy" must be Severus and I think that his rivalry with James just began in the moment in which Severus enter in the same compartment that Lily and James, when James and Sirius laughed at him. And I think that if Severus has protected Harry all these years and has been kept by the side of Dumbledore's, it has been for the love that he felt towards Lily, because he hated Harry, in the same way that Harry hated him. Severus protected Harry only because he was Lily's son and because he felt so guilty for her death.

Actually, some people have brought up a really curious point about Lily marrying James and everything, if she hated him for so long. I'm just sort of wondering how she could have gone from love to hate, although I suppose maybe she took James's side after Snape called her a Mudblood.

I'm just sad that I never accepted the possibility that Snape could be good or that he could love, and now that the books are over and there's no more guessing to be done waiting for the next one, I rather despair that I was so close minded. I only really started to admire and like Snape with about 50 pages of the last harry potter book left.

BUT now looking back, I'm wondering if maybe we can see Snape as crying over Lily's letter and picture not just for this (obsessive) love for her but also for the loss of anyone at all to be his friend at that moment in time.... because we have to keep in mind that at that particular moment when he would have went back to Sirius's house, he had already killed DD, the Order hated him, the Death Eaters were a constant threat since at any moment he could be found out and killed, and all he had was DD's portrait that seemed to be able to carry on a conversation as if he was still alive but still, I would assume, could not be a confidant like a real human would have been.

[SNIP]

So, maybe, just maybe, he was also crying for the loss of anyone to turn to, the feeling of total aloneness, etc. and not just solely Lily's love but her friendship as well - at least that's what I choose to believe because simply crying over a piece of paper because it had her name on it seems a lot cheesy even for someone with undying love.

I also think that it wasn't just the lost Lily he's crying for. I think it was more likely that seeing Lily's letter and picture kind of set off a cathartic burst of emotion. The dude was a wee bit bottled up all those years Harry has been at Hogwarts (and before), and we know he did not want to kill Dumbledore but did it only out of necessity - having gone through everything he did, I suspect seeing the letter and picture just opened a flood gate - not just for lost Lily, but for everything he had lost - including himself.

Lily and James's relationship and how it came about is not the topic of this discussion. Per the first post of this thread, this thread should confine itself solely to discussion of Snape/Lily and their relationship as it was revealed in Deathly Hallows.

Love, without getting too philosophical about it, is the greatest and most paniful thing. I can only imagine how it would feel to be responsible for the death of someone you love but isn't that reason enough to never open yourself up too loving someone else?
Exactly! :tu: Snape was one tortured soul - he paid a very high price for his mistake.

I wonder though, did Sirius and Lupin know about Snape and Lily's friendship?
I think Lupin at least knew. I also think that he was aware that Sev was a rival for Lily's affection's - there are too many pregnant pauses from him in the subject. I think if they knew Sev was a rival then they wouldn't say anything - it would hardly have endeared SNape to Harry.
I don't think James knew Hagrid as well as Harry did. I think that perhaps James and Lily got to know Hagrid through the Order of the Phoenix rather than when they were at school. As such I don't think Hagrid would have been aware of Sev'n'Lily's friendship.

I just loved how Jk handled the Snape and Lily relationship :clap:!! She handled it with true class and respect -- the memory scenes, along with Snape's death itself, was some of the best writing that I have seen from the entire series... the fact that Snape wanted to look into Harry's eyes showed that he finally was able to see the best in Harry - what parts of Lily that he had - being able to accept people for who they are, etc.

Just the fact that he got redeemed overall, was the best part of the whole series, in my opinion :). That Harry was able to get over his own hatred towards him and stand up for him against Voldemort, was just incredible :clap:!!

I think Lupin at least knew. I also think that he was aware that Sev was a rival for Lily's affection's - there are too many pregnant pauses from him in the subject. I think if they knew Sev was a rival then they wouldn't say anything - it would hardly have endeared SNape to Harry.

I agree that his silence when Harry says at the end of HBP that Severus didn't give a damn about Lily was highly suggestive.

I've just said this on another thread, but I think what Snape says to Sirius in the Shrieking Shack in PoA sugegsts that Sirius knew - "Revenge is sweet. How I hoped I'd be the one to catch you". The wording here seems to presuppose that Sirius will know what he's talking about, why he has a reason to seek revenge. [Staff edit] may try and argue still that he wanted revenge for the werewolf "prank", but the description of his demeanour "beyond reason", suggests to em that he definitely sought revenge for Lily, there, at that stage believing that Sirius was the treacherous Secret Keeper.

I feel bad for Snape because, the way it was described in the book, Lily was one of the only true friends he had until he calle dher a Mudblood. And that is probably why he didn't want to go looking for anybody else.

Cathy Weasley^^^^^

Yeah I think that Hagrid met Lily and James through the Order. But I think if Hagrid had known about Lily and Snape's realtionship he might have trusted Snape more and defended him more against everything that Harry said about Snape.

Yeah I think that Hagrid met Lily and James through the Order. But I think if Hagrid had known about Lily and Snape's realtionship he might have trusted Snape more and defended him more against everything that Harry said about Snape.

Hagrid would have east let it slip to Harry that Snape was best friends with Lilly at school

This was definitely one of my favorite chapters. While in the midst of a terrible battle, the sheer intrigue of a picture of children on a playground cannot be repeated. Pure magic.

But I still don't understand why "The fact that Harry 'has his mother's eyes' will prove to be an important plot point." I mean I understand that Snape saw Lily every time he looked at Harry, but I can't see how this was an important plot point.

As a light aside, check out the top of page 668, U.S. edition. (when Harry...ahem...Snape realizes Petunia is hiding behind him).

This was definitely one of my favorite chapters. While in the midst of a terrible battle, the sheer intrigue of a picture of children on a playground cannot be repeated. Pure magic.

But I still don't understand why "The fact that Harry 'has his mother's eyes' will prove to be an important plot point." I mean I understand that Snape saw Lily every time he looked at Harry, but I can't see how this was an important plot point.

As a light aside, check out the top of page 668, U.S. edition. (when Harry...ahem...Snape realizes Petunia is hiding behind him).

I though about this point but i think the eyes were important because they reminded Snaped that he was Lillys son not James and so help harry as much as he could.

Seriously, though, they must have known Hagrid. He would have worked at Hogwarts long before Lily and Snape went to school.

After much re-reading and deliberation, I think some of Lily's feelings about Snape after the OWL incident are maybe evident in the letter Snape reads and takes. This is based on my personal relationship to Lily and Snape as characters, and I'm sure many people will disagree :p

Lily writes to Padfoot:

"I don't know how much to believe, actually, because it seems incredible that Dumbledore/could ever have been friends with Gellert Grindelwald." (p149/553, UK edition).

When Lily wrote this, Voldemort was at the height of his powers, and Snape is a confirmed Death Eater who has probably done some horrible things--possibly to people Lily loves and knows. I think she's questioning how SHE could ever have been friends with, or love, Snape.

This is not to say that she never was friends with or didn't really love Snape, and didn't continue to do so in her heart. Lily is the type of person who sees the best in people, and is willing to go out on a limb to stand up for them when they make mistakes, but when they go too far, she sees it as a personal betrayal of trust.

Someone like Lily doesn't stop caring for people because they are betrayed by them, but one definitely cuts them out of their lives--it hurts too much to be around them. I have been told that I am this type of person. There are many people that I have loved dearly who I am no longer friends with because it hurts too much to see them destroy the best of themselves. I ask myself "How could I ever have been friends with them? How could I have ever loved them? How did I not see their flaws?" I'm not saying I'm like Lily--but I'm saying I can understand her position.

Is Lily asking herself in writing this line "How could I ever have been friends with Severus?" She possibly sees it as something to hide from the world, like Snape sees his love for Lily as something to hide. And, given how much Dumbledore would seem to be a flawless man to her as he is to almost everyone else, I can see her not wanting to believe him capable of that "weakness."

Seriously, though, they must have known Hagrid. He would have worked at Hogwarts long before Lily and Snape went to school.

thats a good point actually i never though of that but still will all them kids at Hogwarts i think he probably would have took much notice untill the all joined the OOTP

thats a good point actually i never though of that but still will all them kids at Hogwarts i think he probably would have took much notice untill the all joined the OOTP

It’s true, I’m not saying they were good friends with him like the trio were, but Hagrid seems to have a pretty good grasp of what’s going on at the school. It seems odd that Hagrid would not have known that Lily and Severus were at least friends at some point.

It’s true, I’m not saying they were good friends with him like the trio were, but Hagrid seems to have a pretty good grasp of what’s going on at the school. It seems odd that Hagrid would not have known that Lily and Severus were at least friends at some point.

He might have but I dont think he knew. All them kids learning what he was not alowed? i would have kepted my head down and got to work. and apart from the trio he didnt seam to know any of the others like whne Draco was looking though the window he didnt reconice him. even though he must have a least knew Lucious in passing.

I didn't quite understand why Snape said "I don't need help from filthy little Mudblods like her" when they were friends! It sounded like she was just anybody, and not somebody he knew personally...

I didn't quite understand why Snape said "I don't need help from filthy little Mudblods like her" when they were friends! It sounded like she was just anybody, and not somebody he knew personally...


I think he was just angry and embarrassed. We all say things we don’t mean, he just happened to say the most extremely wrong thing.

What I want to know is how nobody in the Order made the connectrion between Severus's Patronus and Lily's. They were both in the Order of the Pheonix (albeit at different times), and the Order communciated via Patronus - isn't it strange that nobody ever mentioned that Severus Snape's Patronus was the same silver doe that Lily had used?

II've just said this on another thread, but I think what Snape says to Sirius in the Shrieking Shack in PoA sugegsts that Sirius knew - "Revenge is sweet. How I hoped I'd be the one to catch you". The wording here seems to presuppose that Sirius will know what he's talking about, why he has a reason to seek revenge. [Staff edit] may try and argue still that he wanted revenge for the werewolf "prank", but the description of his demeanour "beyond reason", suggests to em that he definitely sought revenge for Lily, there, at that stage believing that Sirius was the treacherous Secret Keeper.

Absolutely agree, Melaskza. Snape seemed on the brink of doing uncontrollable magic in that scene, and we also had Snape shouting to Hermione not to speak about things she didn't understand. I thought that comment made it fairly clear that his anger wasn't about the bullying. It was this very scene in the Shrieking Shack that made me believe a Snape/Lily relationship was coming.

Yeah I think that Hagrid met Lily and James through the Order. But I think if Hagrid had known about Lily and Snape's realtionship he might have trusted Snape more and defended him more against everything that Harry said about Snape.
If I'm not mistaken, Hagrid has been at Hogwarts in some capacity ever since he himself was expelled. In that case, he definitely should have known James, Lily and Severus during their school years. Hagrid also has always been quite supportive of Snape. It seemed to me that even at the end of HBP, he was one of the only ones giving Snape the benefit of the doubt.

What I want to know is how nobody in the Order made the connectrion between Severus's Patronus and Lily's. They were both in the Order of the Pheonix (albeit at different times), and the Order communciated via Patronus - isn't it strange that nobody ever mentioned that Severus Snape's Patronus was the same silver doe that Lily had used?



Maybe they knew (or suspected) Snape’s feelings, and just never mentioned it to Harry. That makes sense to me, because after all it would not have really been right for them to say anything. Or perhaps they just thought it was one of those things.

I don't think he could of done that to a young person. You think he have seen enough torture in life already first from his family, then what happens to him in school, also what he does to Lily which is a type of self killing torture, then Death Eater activity, Voldy #1 man activity, then spying then just really having no one like him other than Dumbledore, maybe. And most of this tragedy happens very early in life...

But Harry forgave Severus. He even named one of this children after him and told the child that Severus "was the bravest man he ever knew" - quite an honor. I'd say whatever Harry thought of Snape as a child, he didn't view the "torture" in the same way knowing the context and a different perspective.

Some random thoughts:

1) Snape is not perfect but he's still a heroic figure. I happen to like my heros to be flawed, heh. What's important is that he did have the capacity to love, to feel compassion and remorse and to want to be redeemed. That means he wasn't "evil" even though he put his early allegience to the evil Voldimort. He sacrificed his life to protect Harry, however much he may have resented the boy and made sure that Harry was left with his memory of Lily's sacrfice and love.

2) I think that Lily loved Severus, although perhaps just platonically. She cared enough about him to refuse to enable his worse instincts and called him on his use of the Dark Arts. I think she feared that he would be corrupted - and his insult of her probably punctuated the very thought that she feared. It's like loving someone who refused to get help for a drug addiction. Sometimes tough love is necessary. Severus brought all of this on himself and paid the worst price imaginable. What he after that was to try to make things right, albeit not always being the nicest guy in the process.

3) That being said, the presence of Lily's doe petronus makes me think that Lily is still there for Severus in spirit - protecting him and giving him comfort. Perhaps it's meant to be a sign of her forgiveness and love as much as it is his.

4) I'm sure Severus was jealous of James at times adding to his resentment, but I think James may have been jealous of Snape's close friendship with Lily and really singled him out for torment because of it.

Absolutely agree, Melaskza. Snape seemed on the brink of doing uncontrollable magic in that scene, and we also had Snape shouting to Hermione not to speak about things she didn't understand. I thought that comment made it fairly clear that his anger wasn't about the bullying. It was this very scene in the Shrieking Shack that made me believe a Snape/Lily relationship was coming.

I definitely agree.

I thought that this chapter was done beautifully. Before the book came out, I did believe that Snape loved Lily, but I never knew he loved her as much as was revealed in The Prince's Tale!
In the chapter, I was really expecting to see Snape find out that Lily and James were going out or that they were getting married just so we can see how this affected him and also to see more of Lily and James' relationship (which I was really expecting to see.)

I am trying to remember, did anyone ever ask Jo in an interview if Snape had ever been in love, and did she answer something like eww, who would want to be loved by Snape? I'm trying to recall the exact words. Hmm...

What I want to know is how nobody in the Order made the connectrion between Severus's Patronus and Lily's. They were both in the Order of the Pheonix (albeit at different times), and the Order communciated via Patronus - isn't it strange that nobody ever mentioned that Severus Snape's Patronus was the same silver doe that Lily had used?

Maybe they knew (or suspected) Snape’s feelings, and just never mentioned it to Harry. That makes sense to me, because after all it would not have really been right for them to say anything. Or perhaps they just thought it was one of those things.
Or maybe Snape never used his patronus to communicate with the order?

I am trying to remember, did anyone ever ask Jo in an interview if Snape had ever been in love, and did she answer something like eww, who would want to be loved by Snape? I'm trying to recall the exact words. Hmm...

She totally skipped around on that question. She said something like the idea of being loved by Snape was a rather terrible idea but she never said yes or no.

I am trying to remember, did anyone ever ask Jo in an interview if Snape had ever been in love, and did she answer something like eww, who would want to be loved by Snape? I'm trying to recall the exact words. Hmm...
In an interview, Jo just said that she was astounded that someone could actually believe that Snape had a love life and that we were going to find out in book seven. Something along those lines, anyway.

Well when JKR was asked that question they asked her if Snape would fall in love. Meaning in the future. Of course from what we see in Deathly Hallows there is no way that is possible. :lol:

My opinion of Snape after totally changed after reading The Prince's Tale. That was one of the saddest chapters throughout the series. I couldn't stop feeling bad for Snape, and i literally cried like a baby at so many points. I just love Jo for the way she presented the whole Snape story to us. It was one of the best things about Deathly Hallows.

I never ever thought that Snape would actually be in love with Lily. I had thought that maybe he was friends with her, but i never imagined that he would have known her even before they started Hogwarts.

There is just one part of Snape's memory that i am confused about. Its when Dumbledore says "After all this time?" and Snape says "Always". Did Snape's patronus show his love for Lily, and by "After all that time?" is Dumbledore asking that he loved Lily even after all these years? I just had a bit of a hard time understanding that part.

In an interview, Jo just said that she was astounded that someone could actually believe that Snape had a love life and that we were going to find out in book seven. Something along those lines, anyway. No, that part with astounded and book 7 I think was about a "redeeming pattern" in Snape's story. That fits perfectly.

I found it!
One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love.
JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That’s a very horrible idea.

I guess Jo is like the Room of Requirement. You have to phrase the question just right... (i.e. "Was Snape ever in love?"). She's so sly.

EDIT: just saw your answer! thanks!


Well when JKR was asked that question they asked her if Snape would fall in love. Meaning in the future. Of course from what we see in Deathly Hallows there is no way that is possible. :lol:

I just thought of a third meaning of the "Look...at...me" phrase (besides the two mentioned above somewhere). I think that this is the first time Snape actually sees Lily in Harry as opposed to James. Instead of pushing him away with hatred, he for the first time approaches Harry, makes a step towards him.

Yea...a few days before deathly hallows was released, i was telling one of my friends that i didn't think Snape's worse memory was because of the bullying but because of him calling Lily a mudblood...but i don't think any of us could have possibly forseen Snape and Lily as childhood buddies...now we know why Petunia knew more about the magical world than she let on. And yes, that chapter really was one of the saddest chapters in the book.

I also wonder how nobody in the order wondered about Snape's patronus.

I think it’s meant to be that Snape wanted to see Lily’s eyes again before he died. I can’t imagine Snape, the man who loved Lily so much, could be the only person who ever met Harry that didn’t notice the Lily in his eyes.

What I want to know is how nobody in the Order made the connectrion between Severus's Patronus and Lily's. They were both in the Order of the Pheonix (albeit at different times), and the Order communciated via Patronus - isn't it strange that nobody ever mentioned that Severus Snape's Patronus was the same silver doe that Lily had used?

Perhaps he had a different patronus then, and maybe it only changed into a doe after Lily died, or something along those lines. Remember that Tonks' patronus changed into Lupin as a werewolf. I assume that happened after she told Lupin her feelings and (against his will) he turned her away. Any emotional upheaval can alter magic, including a patronus. Lupin explained that. I feel it could be plausible with Snape.

Also, during one of Snape's memories (the famous "Always" memory) Dumbledore seemed surprised at Snape's patronus, which implies that it had either been something else previously, or he had never seen Snape's patronus before. However, since Snape was a changed man after Lily's death, it seems fitting that his feelings and therefore his patronus would change, too.

Actually, though, Snape wasn’t really in the Order until he learned Lily was marked for death. And Dumbledore was surprised that Snape’s patronus was still a doe, not that it was one in the first place. He said “After all this time?” and Snape said “Always.” So I think that implies that it’s been a doe for as long as Snape had been in love with her, which we’ve learned is quite a long time. I think Dumbledore was only surprised that Snape was still that deeply in love with and affected by Lily even so many years after she died. I definitely think Dumbledore must have known that Snape shared Lily’s patronus, though. I imagine it’s part of what convinced him that Snape was really on his side. I imagine you’d really have to be in love with someone before you achieved that kind of emotional connection with them.

What I want to know is how nobody in the Order made the connectrion between Severus's Patronus and Lily's. They were both in the Order of the Pheonix (albeit at different times), and the Order communciated via Patronus - isn't it strange that nobody ever mentioned that Severus Snape's Patronus was the same silver doe that Lily had used?
I am sure that Sirius would at least have had a comment on Snape's 'girly' Patronus, or known it was the same as Lily's. But the topic never came up in Harry's presence, so we don't know.



Or maybe Snape never used his patronus to communicate with the order?
I find that hard to imagine. At the very least, he used it to check that Sirius was really at home in OotP.


Also, during one of Snape's memories (the famous "Always" memory) Dumbledore seemed surprised at Snape's patronus, which implies that it had either been something else previously, or he had never seen Snape's patronus before. However, since Snape was a changed man after Lily's death, it seems fitting that his feelings and therefore his patronus would change, too.
It really does seem strange that two years into the second war Dumbeldore would never have seen Snape's Patronus, but I guess it's possible.

Like I said, though, he didn’t seem surprised that the patronus was a doe, he seemed surprised that it was still a doe after so many years, which really makes a lot of sense. Most people would not hold on to a lost love that long, at least not on that extreme level.

tha happy memory could have an afect on the patronus so maby Snaps Happyest memory was before school whne he knew Lilly (i cant see him many more happy memorys) ther for the partonus is a doe.

tha happy memory could have an afect on the patronus so maby Snaps Happyest memory was before school whne he knew Lilly (i cant see him many more happy memorys) ther for the partonus is a doe.

It’s a good theory, but I don’t really think so. Harry would have to think of James every time he conjured a patronus for that to be so, which we know is not true. He’s thought of Ron and Hermione, and of Ginny before, and his patronus has never changed.

It’s a good theory, but I don’t really think so. Harry would have to think of James every time he conjured a patronus for that to be so, which we know is not true. He’s thought of Ron and Hermione, and of Ginny before, and his patronus has never changed.

i knew i would come up against this argument but harry finding out about his parents was a big factor whne he first produced a patronus, afer all he though he was seeing his farther producing it.

and harry if so so prowed of his parents that even though his happy memories are of Ron and Hermione his farther is still a very big part of him.
using this theroy Snape will always have a place in his heart for Lilly witch is why his is a deo.

Well that’s the point; it’s not necessarily the memory he chooses that makes it, though I’m sure his memory had something to do with Lily, the point is that he loved her that much, like Tonks falling for Lupin resulted in her patronus changing to a wolf.

I don’t really think this is the place to talk about patronuses in general, though.

Well that’s the point; it’s not necessarily the memory he chooses that makes it, though I’m sure his memory had something to do with Lily, the point is that he loved her that much, like Tonks falling for Lupin resulted in her patronus changing to a wolf.

I don’t really think this is the place to talk about patronuses in general, though.

good point will try to stay on topic :)

I think it’s meant to be that Snape wanted to see Lily’s eyes again before he died. I can’t imagine Snape, the man who loved Lily so much, could be the only person who ever met Harry that didn’t notice the Lily in his eyes.

Well I'd always found it suspicious that Snape never even mentioned Lily around Harry, and the obvious fact that Harry had Lily's eyes.

When it comes down to it though, think about how horrible it must have been for Snape to see a mini James with Lily's eyes staring at him every time he looked at Harry. It's no wonder he looked at Harry with such revulsion in PS/SS.

But, that is why he hated James and Harry. James "won" Lily's heart. But I also think, it pained Snape to even look at Harry. Harry is the reason that Lily died. Snape is reminded every time he looks at Harry that the only woman he loved, loved someone else, and died loving and protecting their child. The pain it must have been to just even have Harry in the same room as him. It was torture to him.

I don't agree that Snape hated Harry, maybe James but no Harry. As DD questioned Snap @ him growing fond of Harry and Snape did not respond with words but his patronus came out.

Harry is not the reason Lily died, LV killed Lily and only he is the reason Lily died. Love is what saved Harry throughout his life...i.e. Lily, Snapes sacrafice for Lily and eventually Harry, etc.

Snape was mean to Harry on the outside because he didn't know how to express his feelings which were good we found out.

When it comes down to it though, think about how horrible it must have been for Snape to see a mini James with Lily's eyes staring at him every time he looked at Harry. It's no wonder he looked at Harry with such revulsion in PS/SS.

It could also be that Snape did not know what to think. He could respect and care for Harry because he saw Lily's eyes, but he chose to hate and loathe him, therefore seeing the James in Harry rather than Lily. He had the choice between loathing and loving, and something tells me that he could not forgive himself for Lily's death, and was willing to blame the sole survivor for her death. It's irrational thinking, but love and the death of a loved one combined seemed to change Snape and certainly tormented him. I think we can assume also that he had a lot of irrational thinking; he believed that he could ignore his intolerance for half-bloods by attempting to prevent himself from calling Lily a Mudblood.

I don't agree that Snape hated Harry, maybe James but no Harry.


You think if Harry had been a red-headed girl with green eyes, that Snape would have been nicer? I think so-- I think Harry's physical appearance jarred Snape so much that first day in the Great Hall (Snape stared at Harry the whole time throughout the feast) that from there on out he saw only James, and even if he did see Lily's eyes, they were hidden behind James's glasses.

I'm simply in awe of the fact that JKR made their relationship convincing. I had always imagined that a Lily/Snape pairing would come off as somewhat desperate, creepy, and pathetic on Snape's part, since he has been focused on a woman he never had even though she died with her husband 16 years ago. But Snape's "No, it doesn't make any difference." line completely sold me, and somehow their relationship comes off as very.... "adorable" has too much sweetness to it, but something to that effect. I really enjoyed it.

It could also be that Snape did not know what to think. He could respect and care for Harry because he saw Lily's eyes, but he chose to hate and loathe him, therefore seeing the James in Harry rather than Lily. He had the choice between loathing and loving, and something tells me that he could not forgive himself for Lily's death, and was willing to blame the sole survivor for her death. It's irrational thinking, but love and the death of a loved one combined seemed to change Snape and certainly tormented him. I think we can assume also that he had a lot of irrational thinking; he believed that he could ignore his intolerance for half-bloods by attempting to prevent himself from calling Lily a Mudblood.

I dunno, I mean I agree that the definitely never forgave himself for Lily's death and blamed Harry, but I think he saw both James and Lily when he looked at Harry, which is even more agonizing I think than just seeing James.

I think Snape did come to care for Harry just never would admit to himself. I think deep down Snape probably did realize at least near the end of his life that Harry was more like Lily. Of course it is easier for Snape to be in denial and believe Harry is just like James because that doesn't hurt as much.

It was strongly hinted at but i like the way JKR left the details until the last book, I think if you re-read from *** PS there are strong hints that Lily and snape had something deeper.

You know when you're frustrated, and you keep failing at something, if someone giggles at you, it makes you loose your temper? I think it was like that with Snape seeing Harry: He looks almost exactly like James, showing Snape's failure to win Lily's heart, and Lily's eyes are the final giggle: "Hee, hee, I got Lily and you didn't!"

I know we should stay on topic, but with the patronuses, I think they show who or what you love instead of who you are, and Snape only realized it when he found that his patronus is the same as Lily's. Maybe that's not well known, so he didn't care if the Order noticed the connection because they wouldn't know what that means. That would explain how he knew why Tonks's patronus was a wolf.

You know, I'm actually getting a little misty eyed reading some of the posts in this thread. The Prince's Tale was perhaps my favourite chapter in this book. It answered for me everything I wanted to know about Snape, Lily and Petunia (I knew she couldn't have hated her sister for being a witch - sister's just don't do that - she was just jealous; but that was completely off topic and probably the subject of another thread).

I love that he was Lily's friend and that he loved her. It made perfect sense to me. It made me feel less betrayed by him knowing his motivation for everything he had ever done was remorse for the responsibility he felt at Lily's death. It was brilliant.

While it was suprising, I believe it happened for many reasons. Revealing part of Snape that none had seen was key to this book ending, as for many years, Snape was a very misunderstood and shunned character, especially after HBP. Now, there is some pity for him, which is needed. He was a man who could love, and who did love.

Lily, I think, was naive as a child, which isn't suprising. However, I think that she did realize how Snape felt about her, and perhaps because of the different houses, or because of the 'mudblood' fiasco, she didn't return the feelings. I think that that, more than anything, is a key point in Snapes personality. For much of the books, we thought that Snape hated Harry because of:

A) His celebrity.
B) Some form of Jealousy.
or
C) His father, who had picked on Snape when he was younger.

While C is partially right, we now know that that wasn't the whole story. James married the woman that he loved, and he didn't think that the man was right for her. Truly, it is a story that has been told many times--But, all in all, I'm glad that JKR did this. And more so, I'm glad that Harry gets to understand why Snape was how he was.

Lily and Snape's Childhood bond was so poignant I cried through the whole Prince's Tale chapter!
I also went back to where Snape whispers "Look..At...Me.." as he dies and doubled up again in tears. :upset:
Another bucket of tears when Harry kneals down and calls his second son,
Albus Severus Snape!!

Anyways, I've still got a nagging question.
Did Snape ever become to love Harry, too? Or was his love soley for Lily Evans? As I saw Snape cry over Lily's letter and tear Lily's part from the Pottter family picture, I thought so. But when Dumbledore asks him if he's really grown to care about Harry and Snape answers "always" I thought maybe there's been a change in Severus's mind.

But then again, since Snape states in that scene that he was protecting Harry because he's "Lily's son" and that he shows his patronus is still a doe...this could be a sign of only how Snape's love for Lily has been everlasting.

What do you guys think?
It's actually sad to think that Snape never really got to love Harry.
And Harry never respected Snape till the very end but still acknowledges Snape's true bravery and even names his son after him.
It's sad that they never in life had a close connection together but only after life.

But then again, since Snape states in that scene that he was protecting Harry because he's "Lily's son" and that he shows his patronus is still a doe...this could be a sign of only how Snape's love for Lily has been everlasting.

What do you guys think?
It's actually sad to think that Snape never really got to love Harry.
And Harry never respected Snape till the very end but still acknowledges Snape's true bravery and even names his son after him.
It's sad that they never in life had a close connection together but only after life.
All I can tell you is that Snape is the one who is always waiting on the doorstep of the school when Harry is late to return, such as in Book 2 or in HBP. Snape is angry with him, but if you think about it in the context of Snape/Lily, Snape must have been afraid that something had happened to Harry also. The way he talks to Harry and Ron in CoS is almost word for word what Molly Weasley says in her howler to Ron, so he sounds like an angry parent.

And then there is the way he and Sirius argue over Harry in OotP, which always sounds like a custody fight to me. Snape shows up with a letter from Dumbledore saying that he has a right to talk to Harry alone, but Sirius won't let him. Dumbledore knew how Snape felt about Lily, but Sirius doesn't even consider that, and I think that goes back to what JKR said once about Sirius not recognizing Snape's "latent good qualities."

So, yeah - I do think he began to care about Harry. Unfortunately, that's about the time Harry really started to hate Snape due to the death of Sirius.

I was thinking about this passage in OotP:

{Snape Says}
'You are allowing me access to memories you fear, handing me weapons!'

. . . 'Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord! said Snape savagely. 'Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked so easily - weak people in other words - they stand no chance against his powers!'



We have often wondered if Snape was speaking from his own experiences, and now we know that he was. When you think of the way the locket horcrux used Ron's insecurity to show him visions to torment him, you can only imagine what Voldemort would do with a love as great as Snape had for Lily.

I have a hunch that he called her a Mudblood because of her relations with James and what James was doing to him.

The relationship between Lily and Snape was such a shock to me, but once again it seemed to be something that was in the making, somehting that Rowling had set us up for all along.

All I can tell you is that Snape is the one who is always waiting on the doorstep of the school when Harry is late to return, such as in Book 2 or in HBP. Snape is angry with him, but if you think about it in the context of Snape/Lily, Snape must have been afraid that something had happened to Harry also. The way he talks to Harry and Ron in CoS is almost word for word what Molly Weasley says in her howler to Ron, so he sounds like an angry parent.

And then there is the way he and Sirius argue over Harry in OotP, which always sounds like a custody fight to me. Snape shows up with a letter from Dumbledore saying that he has a right to talk to Harry alone, but Sirius won't let him. Dumbledore knew how Snape felt about Lily, but Sirius doesn't even consider that, and I think that goes back to what JKR said once about Sirius not recognizing Snape's "latent good qualities."

So, yeah - I do think he began to care about Harry. Unfortunately, that's about the time Harry really started to hate Snape due to the death of Sirius.

I was thinking about this passage in OotP:

{Snape Says}
'You are allowing me access to memories you fear, handing me weapons!'

. . . 'Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord! said Snape savagely. 'Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked so easily - weak people in other words - they stand no chance against his powers!'

We have often wondered if Snape was speaking from his own experiences, and now we know that he was. When you think of the way the locket horcrux used Ron's insecurity to show him visions to torment him, you can only imagine what Voldemort would do with a love as great as Snape had for Lily.

I think these little snippets that you pointed out show that Snape did care, in his own way about Harry. I think he was able to do that because his love for Lily was stronger than his hatred for James, albiet they both lasted forever, I still think the love was stronger. This being said, I think that Snape's treatment of Harry had just as much to do with his protection. I mean if he was caught sympathizing or caring for the enemy, Death Eaters may have reported odd behavior back to the DL. I think making Harry hate him and knowing that Harry hated him was hard to some extent. Can you imagine how he must have felt having Lily's eyes glare at him all the time, full of hate and contempt?

isn't it strange that nobody ever mentioned that Severus Snape's Patronus was the same silver doe that Lily had used?

Whoa whoa whoa... Lily's Patronus was a doe? I thought Snape's Patronus respresented Lily herself... like Harry's represents James, and Tonks' represents Lupin?

James' animagus form was a stag, so Harry's Patronus became a stag to represent James. Lily, however, was not an animgus so Snape's patronus could not become an animagus form in order to represent her. Her patronus was a doe, so Snape's patronus instead became a doe to represent Lily.


What I want to know is ....how much did Lily love Snape?

When they'd fought outside the common room, Lily had said "I can't keep pretending" and "my friends don't even know why I talk to you" It sounded as if she truly did long for him, but because of social pressure she found it hard to associate with him. They almost seemed like star crossed lovers. Sometimes I even wondered if she regretted that she had left him even later in the years when she was married to James.

I think she might have had a few feelings there too for Snape. The one line that truly stuck out for me was, "he struck an oddly impressive figure sprawled in front of her."

Why? Why, oh, why didn't he tell her how he felt about her when he threatened to camp out in front of the Gryffindor common room?

It seemed like a few missed chances there.

I think there might have been a lot more potential then I thought in previous books for the feelings to be not so one-sided.

Like others have said, I'm so delighted and relieved that the relationship was long-lasting and two-sided, and that there was a deep platonic friendship involved in addition to, er, whatever else. In fact, JK never comes out and explicitly says that Snape loved Lily in a romantic way, though it is certainly implied.

IMO, the friendship was the most important part of the relationship, to Snape and to the storyline. Since the age of eight, Lily was probably the only good thing in Snape's life... it's no wonder he became a bit obsessed.

I believe the potential was there for them to have been more than friends. Snape's choices in friends helped drive a wedge I think Lily was waiting on a change from Snape but it never happened so she moved on.

I loved the line "the intensity of his gaze made her blush." I can't help but hold on to the notion that she was in love with him too. If his love had been unrequited, well that only makes Snape more tragic of a hero- but I'd like to think his life hadn't been complete tragedy, that his feelings of both friendship and deeper love had, at some point, been returned.. (and then lost:()

Whoa whoa whoa... Lily's Patronus was a doe? I thought Snape's Patronus respresented Lily herself... like Harry's represents James, and Tonks' represents Lupin?

Yes. Her Patronus was a doe and Snape's love for her made his Patronus ape hers, just as Tonk's Patronus became similar to Lupin's when she was pining for him.

I loved the line "the intensity of his gaze made her blush." I can't help but hold on to the notion that she was in love with him too. If his love had been unrequited, well that only makes Snape more tragic of a hero- but I'd like to think his life hadn't been complete tragedy, that his feelings of both friendship and deeper love had, at some point, been returned.. (and then lost:()


Yeah I liked that line too. I think she may have had a little crush on him but maybe didn't admit or was waiting on Snape to be open with his feelings. They were still very young when they parted ways. I imagine if Snape would have stopped being friendly with death eaters then by 7th year they may have been the ones dating.

wait, i just realized something....why did snae tell voldemort about the prophecy? i mean, if he knew lily had a chance of dying........

I definitely think that if Snape revealed his feelings there could have been something between them. I have said previously, that I believe Lily is looking for him to reveal himself when she asks what makes her different. I think things could have been very different if he had only told her.

I think that the rejection that he receives instead turns him away from all the good he had and all he is left with are his Death Eater friends. It is sad and tragic, as he always seemed to get tongue tied and mess up around Lily and their final rift was caused by yet another mess up.

I had a very strong feeling he loved her, as the chapter title where he calls her a mudblood is called "snape's worst memory". If james and his gang were as bad as they made out this would not have stuck out in his memory, therefore it had to be because he called Lilly a mudblood.

wait, i just realized something....why did snae tell voldemort about the prophecy? i mean, if he knew lily had a chance of dying........

But as we found out, Snape told Dumbledore he had never realized that the Phrophecy had meant Lily Evan's child. That's why he was so distraught and that's why he wanted Dumbledores protection. There was regret...

Lily didn't start dating James until their later years at Hogwarts. It almost seemed like Snape kicked himself for not opening his mouth sooner. It makes sense why he was such a great occlumens. It seemed like he cared for nothing else when she died. He was numb.

I definitely think that if Snape revealed his feelings there could have been something between them. I have said previously, that I believe Lily is looking for him to reveal himself when she asks what makes her different. I think things could have been very different if he had only told her.

I think that the rejection that he receives instead turns him away from all the good he had and all he is left with are his Death Eater friends. It is sad and tragic, as he always seemed to get tongue tied and mess up around Lily and their final rift was caused by yet another mess up.


I agree. And it is so sad and tragic. These what might have been stories always make me cry. :upset:

I was thinking about this passage in OotP:


Quote:
{Snape Says}
'You are allowing me access to memories you fear, handing me weapons!'

. . . 'Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord! said Snape savagely. 'Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked so easily - weak people in other words - they stand no chance against his powers!'


We have often wondered if Snape was speaking from his own experiences, and now we know that he was. When you think of the way the locket horcrux used Ron's insecurity to show him visions to torment him, you can only imagine what Voldemort would do with a love as great as Snape had for Lily.Although there were many discussions about this and so people interpretted this scene for what it really was long before it was confirmed, knowing the truth about it now though, it almost makes it more real and more painful of an admonition than the when it was still just a speculation.

Not to stray too far off topic, but I think it was around this time, when Snape started to 'see' more of Lily in Harry as well. After witnessing some of Harry's memories, he was able to understand a bit better that Harry wasn't a remake of James, he just looked like him. In his heart he was the same as Lily.

But as we found out, Snape told Dumbledore he had never realized that the prophecy had meant Lily Evan's child. That's why he was so distraught and that's why he wanted Dumbledores protection. There was regret...Could this regret have anything to do with the 'pain' he was feeling??? We have been told that regret is the one thing that will repair a torn soul, and that it can destroy them. Lily's death could have been a double edged sword. Her dying caused him such pain, but it may have also repaired his soul.

I had a very strong feeling he loved her, as the chapter title where he calls her a mudblood is called "snape's worst memory". If james and his gang were as bad as they made out this would not have stuck out in his memory, therefore it had to be because he called Lilly a mudblood.

Exactly my thoughts. It is obvious to me that the Mudblood incident is why this is his worst memory. That one action caused the rift between he and Lily and that rift changed the course of his life and possibly hers. Imagine if that hadn't happened, and they remained friends. Would Snape have joined the Death Eaters and if he hadn't who would have delivered the prophecy? We will never know obviously; however, it makes for interesting speculation.

But as we found out, Snape told Dumbledore he had never realized that the Phrophecy had meant Lily Evan's child. That's why he was so distraught and that's why he wanted Dumbledores protection. There was regret...


Right, when the prophecy was given and Snape overheard it, he had no idea that it could pertain to Lily. As soon as he found that out, he sought the help of Dumbledore. His full intention was to save Lily. He was horrified at what he had done.

I was wondering something about Snape's Patronus, and as it has to do with Lily as well, I thought I'd bring it here. Why was Snape's Patronus a doe? I understand that it represents Lily, but how so? Is Lily's Patronus a doe? Is she an Animagus? Or does it represent the female half of James - as James is a stag, Lily is a doe? It just seemed very odd to me, because if it's Snape's choice of how Lily is remembered, or what animal represents the person who he feels protection from, it seems odd that he'd pick the female counterpart of Lily's husband. But then again, Harry didn't know the significance of his Patronus until Dumbledore told him, did he? So perhaps it's in the magic of the Patronus. Thoughts?

It wasn't that surprising because what else could it be. I so was not buying the whole Snape felt guilty about sending Voldemort to the house to kill Harry, without their being a Snape-Lily connection. Snape never felt guilty about picking on a child (Harry) so why would he feel guilty about Lily dying and he is a death eater. There would have to be some kind of connection for that to be true.

The one thing I did find humorous (after crying my eyes out the last few chapters) was Voldemort assuming that Snape would take relationship advice from him. I never expected LV to even entertain such a request from Snape to spare Lily.

"He desired her, that was all," sneered Voldemort, but when she had gone, we agreed that there were other women..."

I can't believe LV gave Snape the there-are-other-fish-in-the-sea," speech.

That had to be the closest thing to a human conversation LV has ever had with a Death Eater. Not that he really cared what Snape thougt anyway.

I agree. And it is so sad and tragic. These what might have been stories always make me cry. :upset:

Me too :upset: I think if he had courage enough to reveal the feelings he hid, Lily may have been more receptive and may have forgiven him for the Mudblood comment. There are just so many alternate plots that could have come out of this one simple action.

If Snape had made a move on Lily we wouldn't have Harry Potter. I'm willing to sacrifice his unhappiness. Wow, that sounds horrible.....keep in mind he's fictional........

Could this regret have anything to do with the 'pain' he was feeling??? We have been told that regret is the one thing that will repair a torn soul, and that it can destroy them. Lily's death could have been a double edged sword. Her dying caused him such pain, but it may have also repaired his soul.

The regret was from selling the woman he was in love with to Voldemort. So yeah it would cause him pain but as you said it was a form of remorse. He knew even if it was the boy Voldemort must kill he would kill the boy's family too. He had been around him enough to know how Voldemort worked. Snape's ability to love was what kept him loyal to Dumbledore. I know deep-down he was no death eater.

If Snape had made a move on Lily we wouldn't have Harry Potter. I'm willing to sacrifice his unhappiness. Wow, that sounds horrible.....keep in mind he's fictional........



Which is why JKR never gave him the courage I suppose :D

But we will never truly know... only JKR knows how far they could have gone.

Me too :upset: I think if he had courage enough to reveal the feelings he hid, Lily may have been more receptive and may have forgiven him for the Mudblood comment. There are just so many alternate plots that could have come out of this one simple action.

I know it is so much fun to speculate about them. Although they made different choices (Slytherin vs Gryffindor) they had to have a lot in common to be friends for years like they were. If Snape was sliding down the wrong path I really wonder what kept Lily around for so long. I suppose that is one of the reasons why I feel they could have been more. :)

I agree. And it is so sad and tragic. These what might have been stories always make me cry. :upset:

I know, just imagine what could of happened if they just stayed friends! But then he'd never tell the partial prophecy to Voldemort...

Although there were many discussions about this and so people interpretted this scene for what it really was long before it was confirmed, knowing the truth about it now though, it almost makes it more real and more painful of an admonition than the when it was still just a speculation.

Not to stray too far off topic, but I think it was around this time, when Snape started to 'see' more of Lily in Harry as well. After witnessing some of Harry's memories, he was able to understand a bit better that Harry wasn't a remake of James, he just looked like him. In his heart he was the same as Lily.

Could this regret have anything to do with the 'pain' he was feeling??? We have been told that regret is the one thing that will repair a torn soul, and that it can destroy them. Lily's death could have been a double edged sword. Her dying caused him such pain, but it may have also repaired his soul.

I think too that Snape knows Harry was not all James. Harry was quite, I don't know different from other boys his age during times of peace in his early yrs.
Also I think all of this did tear up Severus's soul but also healed it. This love made him sick with himself but he finds that this love, his only will, can make him realize the good he has to do for Harry and DD.

I have wondered the same thing and no one seems to know the answer to the question about the doe.


As for Lily returning Snape's feelings. I'm not so sure. I had a feeling she was lying when she said that she knew James was an arogant toe rag. But I also thing she blushed because she realised how Snape was looking at her.

her comment about her friends didn't even know why she spoke with him... Well I wanted to say when I read that: Isn't snape supposed to be her best friend. Why is she worried about what her normal friends are saying about thier relationship...

There is no one who wants it to be two ways more than me but when I read thoses memories all I get is that she never loved him like he loved her. "I can't pretend anymore." It's like I can't pretend that you don't disturb me and I am tired of you.." That's how I read it. I hope I am vey wrong but I seem to remember that she was smiling when he was being hung upside down by James... then she said to put him down. Jk also said that she did liked James but she was just waiting for his head to deflate. I personally think Snape never had a prayer.

If Snape had made a move on Lily we wouldn't have Harry Potter. I'm willing to sacrifice his unhappiness. Wow, that sounds horrible.....keep in mind he's fictional........

But I mean isn't everything were discussing what could of happened? All of this is from the tragic and abrupt ending of Severus Snape and Lily Evan's relationship. It saddens me how Rowling tempts us with these storylines that never pulled through, but with a book like this what else could I expect.:upset: I think I might cry........

Which is why JKR never gave him the courage I suppose :D

But we will never truly know... only JKR knows how far they could have gone.

Yeah we needed Snape to go on the wrong path so Harry Potter could be born! Man we are so lucky we are just talking about fictional people. Lol :lol:

Also Nutty, I think we all might cry, or have cried from this topic we are discussing. Its just so tragic.

I have wondered the same thing and no one seems to know the answer to the question about the doe.


As for Lily returning Snape's feelings. I'm not so sure. I had a feeling she was lying when she said that she knew James was an arogant toe rag. But I also thing she blushed because she realised how Snape was looking at her.

her comment about her friends didn't even know why she spoke with him... Well I wanted to say when I read that: Isn't snape supposed to be her best friend. Why is she worried about what her normal friends are saying about thier relationship...

There is no one who wants it to be two ways more than me but when I read thoses memories all I get is that she never loved him like he loved her. "I can't pretend anymore." It's like I can't pretend that you don't disturb me and I am tired of you.." That's how I read it. I hope I am vey wrong but I seem to remember that she was smiling when he was being hung upside down by James... then she said to put him down. Jk also said that she did liked James but she was just waiting for his head to deflate. I personally think Snape never had a prayer.

Yeah Lily's mouth twitched as though she were going to smile. I feel that Lily was attracted to James in SWM in love ...not so much at that time. At least not to me. Anyhow there is no way to know for sure what Lily may have felt for Snape had he shaped up. I personally feel there are some hints that show the possiblity but who knows. ;)

I think that Lily's Patronus was a doe is a strong indicator that she was 100% smitten with James. It was true love. I think she maybe loved Snape as a friend, or a brother. But never as a lover.

I was not really expecting any of it. I thought it was a possibility, but it was still suprising. It sheds a lot of light on Snapes behavior; he hated Harry because he looked like James, and reminded Snape that Lily was gone, but he also saved him and looked outfor him because he is Lily's son. Part of me starts wishing that things had worked out beetween Snape and Lily, but then there would never have been Harry, and Snape definitly wasn't perfict, he was a death eater and indirectly responsible for the attack on the Potters. The whole situation was just so tragic in so many ways...

I think that Lily's Patronus was a doe is a strong indicator that she was 100% smitten with James. It was true love. I think she maybe loved Snape as a friend, or a brother. But never as a lover.

Yes I think that too...a stag and a doe. A perfect match, well like animal wise in Patronus world. Haha

I think she did love him like a brother going the wrong way, you know? I'm not sure she never spoke to Petunia again after he leaving school? Or complete forced conversation made by parents do u think?

This was actually one of my favorite parts in the book. I loved Harry getting to see the relationship between Snape and Lily and just how everything unfolded in the later years.

I was surprised to learn they were friends before Hogwarts, I just figured Snape saw a pretty girl he liked and so he was infatuated with her....WRONG, in a sense. But yes, this part of the book when Harry went into the Pensive just put the biggest smile on my face.

I think that Lily's Patronus was a doe is a strong indicator that she was 100% smitten with James. It was true love. I think she maybe loved Snape as a friend, or a brother. But never as a lover.


That's a good point but the stag is also represented on the Snape crest as well as the representative animal for Snape's birth month in the celtic zodiac. JKR knows quite a bit about celtic mythology, so like I say it is just a possiblity and just my opinion. :)

I seem to remember that she was smiling when he was being hung upside down by James... then she said to put him down.
Her expression twitched as if she was going to smile. I've been on a campaign for a while now to advance the idea that the smirk was because she knew James was using one of Severus' self-invented spells because the "arrogant, bullying toerag" didn't have any spells of his own. I know I find that fact smirk-worthy.

It intrigues me how many of life's lessons and problems we find in this book and series, this fictional world. Haven't we seen how knowing how to love is as just as important as getting love in return. The themes we see in real life have intertwined themselves around this plot we have all come to love. That's how Rowling got rich.

It's funny, I read Harry Potter to get away from real life.

The Snape and Lily relationship was very believable since it was the last piece of the puzzle..... One thing that really shocked me was that i believed that the snape and lily relationship was one sided.. That Snape liked Lily but lily was only kind to him.. she never really liked him...

But I was really surprised when i found out that lily and snape were actually pretty close and snape knew lily before she even enrolled at hogwarts.

I think that if Snape had been in Gryffindor, their relationship would have been extremely different. Snape could have been harry potter's potential father. I think that the whole Snape and Lily relationship also made me look at the James/Lily relationship in a new light.. When it was obvious that Snape was very much in love with Lily, I kinda felt like they would have made a better couple than Lily/James, as absurd as it sounds.. I just felt really sorry for him.