Snape and Lily - the Relationship Revealed!

I agree, I thought that if Snape “loved” Lily then it would have been a typical highschool crush at best, more likely a quietly admiring from afar kind of thing, but this was much more than a crush or infatuation, he was really in love with her.

That's a good point but the stag is also represented on the Snape crest as well as the representative animal for Snape's birth month in the celtic zodiac. JKR knows quite a bit about celtic mythology, so like I say it is just a possiblity and just my opinion. :)
Really? That's cool. Is the Snape crest a real family, or is a piece of info I forgot from the books?

Really? That's cool. Is the Snape crest a real family, or is a piece of info I forgot from the books?


From a true Snape family crest. :)

This was actually one of my favorite parts in the book. I loved Harry getting to see the relationship between Snape and Lily and just how everything unfolded in the later years.

I was surprised to learn they were friends before Hogwarts, I just figured Snape saw a pretty girl he liked and so he was infatuated with her....WRONG, in a sense. But yes, this part of the book when Harry went into the Pensive just put the biggest smile on my face.

I agree. I think that's one big reason I was so anti-Snape-and-Lily before. It didn't make sense. But them knowing each other before school did, and now I like it.

When it was obvious that Snape was very much in love with Lily, I kinda felt like they would have made a better couple than Lily/James, as absurd as it sounds.. I just felt really sorry for him.

But aren't we all? We still have to keep in mind that Harry is the result of this and without James there would be no Harry. I also believe that Lily wouldn't have married James if she did not love him. She seemed to close to all his friends too. I cry for snape :upset: , but I accept where the book led us.

But aren't we all? We still have to keep in mind that Harry is the result of this and with James there would be no Harry. I also believe that Lily wouldn't have married James if she did not love him. She seemed to close to all his friends too. I cry for snape :upset: , but I accept where the book led us.

I have to drill that fact into my head every time I think about it! I keep finding myself, despite how much I love Harry, thinking “I wish Lily had been with Severus.”

Yes I think that too...a stag and a doe. A perfect match, well like animal wise in Patronus world. Haha

I think she did love him like a brother going the wrong way, you know? I'm not sure she never spoke to Petunia again after he leaving school? Or complete forced conversation made by parents do u think?

Well she did talk to Petunia after because she sent her a gift for Christmas and she mentioned it in the letter to Sirius.

I'm not sure about the Snape and Lily relationship. I think from the moment she was placed in Gryffindor all chances of them ending up together ended. I think she would have still been his friend if he admitted that he loved her but I don't think they would have been together. I think Lily failed to realise that she had all those friends and she was so popular and was capable of making friends and yet she was asking Snape not to talk to people who actually thought he was intresting

If Lily was so popular she must have had about 20 friends to share he time with: so Snape maybe got 1/20 of that. If he didn't have any other friends than her, then that would mean his time with Lily was the only bit of company he would have. It was unfair to ask him not to have the friends he did, she had lots of friends. If she spent more time with him maybe he wouldn't have needed anymore friends...

To me that was an illfated relationship from the start.

I've always found Snape's character interesting. I always thought that James making fun of "Snivellus" would be a good reason for Snape to dislike him, but not hate him to the point that he did. I always felt it extended beyond the torments at school, and to something much more personal.

Granted, I was surprised that the love he had for Lily was since childhood, but at the same time, I love that idea. I found it interesting when Phineus Nigellus called Hermione a "mudblood", Snape scolded him for saying that word. It made sense since his friendship with Lily seemed to have ended after he called her "mudblood".

I've always found Snape an interesting character. His personality was one I was curious about. The way he talked about showing emotions was a sign of weakness told me that he probably went through hardships in life that he had to stick out and had no one there for him. Granted, Harry's life was no walk in the park either. But people have been shown to be born with certain characteristics despite their environment. Harry's parents were nice people, especially his mother. Snape's parents were constantly arguing, and Snape's father appeared to be abusive (if not physically, then emotionally). Genetics coupled with environment made turned Snape into the person he became. Then the people they each chose to surround themselves with influenced that even more.

I've always liked Snape because he always left me curious. Now, I'd have to say he's my 2nd favorite character (Ginny being the 1st), aside from Harry.

Toonmili I don't think it was unfair of Lily at all for her to want Snape to stop hanging out with death eaters. That showed me she did care about Snape and wanted him to make a change. They were obviously not good for Snape and look where it led him.

Toonmili I don't think it was unfair of Lily at all for her to want Snape to stop hanging out with death eaters. That showed me she did care about Snape and wanted him to make a change. They were obviously not good for Snape and look where it led him.

I agree, she was looking out for him. If your best friend is being an idiot you have to tell them, otherwise you’re not a real best friend. That conversation just proved that Lily really cared about Snape.

I have wondered the same thing and no one seems to know the answer to the question about the doe.


As for Lily returning Snape's feelings. I'm not so sure. I had a feeling she was lying when she said that she knew James was an arogant toe rag. But I also thing she blushed because she realised how Snape was looking at her.

her comment about her friends didn't even know why she spoke with him... Well I wanted to say when I read that: Isn't snape supposed to be her best friend. Why is she worried about what her normal friends are saying about thier relationship...

There is no one who wants it to be two ways more than me but when I read thoses memories all I get is that she never loved him like he loved her. "I can't pretend anymore." It's like I can't pretend that you don't disturb me and I am tired of you.." That's how I read it. I hope I am vey wrong but I seem to remember that she was smiling when he was being hung upside down by James... then she said to put him down. Jk also said that she did liked James but she was just waiting for his head to deflate. I personally think Snape never had a prayer.

THe whole bullying scene made me feel as if Lily has all her attentions turned towards the marauders, I would never have guessed that Snape and Lily were even friends from that scene. THere was almost a concealed flirtation between Lily and James in that scene, I think, where she had her attention turned towards him and seemed to know that her presence would be taken as special. The smile-twitch seemed to me to say that she was yelling at him even though she found it humourous, but felt that she shouldn't and try to do the right thing. I'm speculating that until that scene their friendship had been loosening more and more; the way they insulted each other at SWM seemed like they weren't close at all.
But I don't really understand WHY Snape called Lily a mudblood if he loved her oh so much.
Heheh...you know what would be the perfect anthem for this relationship? Creep by radiohead....:lol:

Didn't surprise me in the least--it's been my theory since OoTP. Felt all sorts of vindicated when it was finally revealed (though, I gotta say, I felt like we were running out of time for that 'Trust Snape' bumper sticker on my car to be proven right...but I never lost faith).

One of my very favorite moments in the book was Snape's last request that Harry look at him--he wanted to see Lily's eyes one last time.

I think Snape called Lily a mudblood because he was embarassed and desperately did not want Lily to see him in that position.

I wonder, how did "snivellus" started? Snape was with James in the compartment and they dissagreed but snape never cried or anything.:hmm:

The one thing I did find humorous (after crying my eyes out the last few chapters) was Voldemort assuming that Snape would take relationship advice from him. I never expected LV to even entertain such a request from Snape to spare Lily.

"He desired her, that was all," sneered Voldemort, but when she had gone, we agreed that there were other women..."

I can't believe LV gave Snape the there-are-other-fish-in-the-sea," speech.

That had to be the closest thing to a human conversation LV has ever had with a Death Eater. Not that he really cared what Snape thougt anyway.

Thank you for that! :lol:I needed a good laugh after all this heart-wrenching what-might-have-been sadness.

Good God, LV really WAS completely clueless, wasn't he? "Sure, I killed her, Severus, but what are you whining about? There are still plenty of hot pure-blood chicks out there - and I probably won't kill all of them!" :p

That's a good point but the stag is also represented on the Snape crest as well as the representative animal for Snape's birth month in the celtic zodiac. JKR knows quite a bit about celtic mythology, so like I say it is just a possiblity and just my opinion. :)

Aha! And it's a birth month, as we learned in DH, that Severus shares with...Lily.

Severus b. January 9, 1960
Lily b. January 30, 1960

Way cool factoid, alwaysme! :tu:

But I don't really understand WHY Snape called Lily a mudblood if he loved her oh so much.
Heheh...you know what would be the perfect anthem for this relationship? Creep by radiohead....:lol:

I think the reason he called her a mudblood was he was upset because he might've detected the concealed flirting. He was in love with her and he saw that love slipping. I think it slipped out in anger.

Haha, yes, Radiohead is perfect...
I think once Snape began to realize that he wouldn't get Lily, that it wasn't meant to be, part of him hated her. Have you ever loved someone, broken up with them, or had them do something indirectly horrible, and then you start to notice that they bug you? Every little thing? And then time passes, and you know you still love them.
And then, while being as evil as you can you indirectly have that person killed? And then feel bad, and decide to make everyone else hate you, while avenging that person's child, and simultaneously making their life miserable? Yeah, I think it's that typical teen crush thing.

Yeah, i'd kind of figured that Snape had loved Lily and I'd theorised that they had been good friends at school, but I honestly didn't believe that this was the ironclad reason for DD trusting him - or for Voldemort offering Lily the chance to live. I was sure there was more to it. I just didn't think Voldemort would care much about the love interest of a Death Eater to actually offer them the chance to be spared. I thought that lily had something that made her special, perhaps to do with her potions skill, that Voldemort had wanted, and that Harry having Lily's eyes meant that the power she possessed had been passed on to him, but he didn't realise.

I thought there had to be more for DD trusting Snape, as well. I just thought the reason was pretty weak considering what Snape had been. He'd been involved in the Dark Arts all his life pretty much! But then again, the books do emphasise a lot about 'love.' But I dunno, it just disappointed me. I thought there would be more to it.

PS: I loved the book, by the way, but I did have a fair few disappointments along the way. :P

Well Snape didn't see them as Death Eater friends were such a bad thing. I think she shouldn't have just said that she doesn't like him hanging out with them. She should have offered an Alternative like: if you want I will hang out with you more but you have to stop hanging out with them.

I don't think it was a meant to be relationship

It's more of a friendship on Lily's part.

If she really liked him, she had 5 years to act on it.

The Patronus stag/doe is a nice touch.

Well Snape didn't see them as Death Eater friends were such a bad thing. I think she shouldn't have just said that she doesn't like him hanging out with them. She should have offered an Alternative like: if you want I will hang out with you more but you have to stop hanging out with them.

But how many 14 year old girls are THAT mature?

I'm not sure about the Snape and Lily relationship. I think from the moment she was placed in Gryffindor all chances of them ending up together ended. I think she would have still been his friend if he admitted that he loved her but I don't think they would have been together. I think that that is what makes it all so much more heartbreaking. In his mind, because he didn't tell her, the possibility of her responding in kind was lost. He was forced to live his life with so many 'what if's'. Yet his unwavering loyalty to her memory suggests that it wouldn't have mattered if she didn't love him back, but not knowing for sure left the possibilty open that she did. Either way, he didn't emotionally betray his one true love and he accepted his 'lot in life' because of it.

I think that that is what makes it all so much more heartbreaking. In his mind, because he didn't tell her, the possibility of her responding in kind was lost. He was forced to live his life with so many 'what if's'. Yet his unwavering loyalty to her memory suggests that it wouldn't have mattered if she didn't love him back, but not knowing for sure left the possibilty open that she did. Either way, he didn't emotionally betray his one true love and he accepted his 'lot in life' because of it.

This is true. But I'm sorry. The man had YEARS to move on. Like Voldy said, there were plenty other fish in the sea. It's not like he had a relationship with Lily, they were married, and then James stole her. He lost his chance when he was 11. You'd think by the time he was 35 he'd have moved on, at least a LITTLE bit. I love that he loved her enough to go through what he did. But I think he could have loved someone else as well.

They were never an 'item', his love was--to his death--unrequieted.

It was somewhat heartbreaking.

OH! And lets not discount the giant 'guilt factor' involved.

The information he passed on to Voldemort after overhearing the prophecy sent her to her death--guilt is often MUCH more powerful than love, combine the two and you've got a whole mess of heartache that could absolutely nurse an obsessive need to repair the damage you caused.

OH! And lets not discount the giant 'guilt factor' involved.

The information he passed on to Voldemort after overhearing the prophecy sent her to her death--guilt is often MUCH more powerful than love, combine the two and you've got a whole mess of heartache that could absolutely nurse an obsessive need to repair the damage you caused.

I think I'm the only person not touched by unrequited love.

OH! And lets not discount the giant 'guilt factor' involved.

The information he passed on to Voldemort after overhearing the prophecy sent her to her death--guilt is often MUCH more powerful than love, combine the two and you've got a whole mess of heartache that could absolutely nurse an obsessive need to repair the damage you caused.

This is true. But I'm sorry. The man had YEARS to move on. Like Voldy said, there were plenty other fish in the sea. It's not like he had a relationship with Lily, they were married, and then James stole her. He lost his chance when he was 11. You'd think by the time he was 35 he'd have moved on, at least a LITTLE bit. I love that he loved her enough to go through what he did. But I think he could have loved someone else as well.


Sometimes people only love once. That may sound crazy to us but it happens. In literature this is a common theme that is used for gothic heroes. Normally when they love it is only once and intense. :)

And that is where evil comes from. Snape did good in his life. But he did a whole lot more evil.

I thought there had to be more for DD trusting Snape, as well. I just thought the reason was pretty weak considering what Snape had been. He'd been involved in the Dark Arts all his life pretty much! But then again, the books do emphasise a lot about 'love.' But I dunno, it just disappointed me. I thought there would be more to it.


The form Snape's Patronus takes might be considered evidence that Snape was not lying to Dumbledore, at any rate. Especially if it changed after Lily died, I'd say that's a pretty good 'ironclad' reason.

And that is where evil comes from. Snape did good in his life. But he did a whole lot more evil.
What post is this in response to, exactly? Because it seems to have no bearing on the post directly above it.

People who can only love once, intensely and obsessively.

I wasnt suprised at all about the relationship. I was a big believer that Snape liked or loved Lily and thus the reason he was with the good guys! But the Prince's Tale wasnt to emotional for me, probably because i knew it was coming. Deep down i didnt want it to be that way, but its nontheless well done!

...It's more of a friendship on Lily's part.

If she really liked him, she had 5 years to act on it.And how many years did it take for Hermione to 'act' on her feelings for Ron?

Not to mention that girls were not the the ones to do the pursuing in the '70s. It wasn't as bad as the '50s or '60s, but believe me (as a girl from that generation) it was really a VERY unusual thing to ask a guy out -even to ask one to dance. To be the first one to say 'I love you'? not likely.

People who can only love once, intensely and obsessively.


And you believe that if a person only loves once that makes them evil?

And how many years did it take for Hermione to 'act' on her feelings for Ron?

Not to mention that girls were not the the ones to do the pursuing in the '70s. It wasn't as bad as the '50s or '60s, but believe me (as a girl from that generation) it was really a VERY unusual thing to ask a guy out -even to ask one to dance. To be the first one to say 'I love you'? not likely.NO KIDDING!!! Been there lived that! :D

This isn't about good or evil, people.

It does seem that the love Snape felt was never fulfilled.

And how many years did it take for Hermione to 'act' on her feelings for Ron?

Not to mention that girls were not the the ones to do the pursuing in the '70s. It wasn't as bad as the '50s or '60s, but believe me (as a girl from that generation) it was really a VERY unusual thing to ask a guy out -even to ask one to dance. To be the first one to say 'I love you'? not likely.


Hermione and Ron had a different history.

Hermione did display evidence that she was interested in Ron while Lily did, to current knowledge, not show any interest besides friendship.

Hermione and Ron had a different history.

Hermione did display evidence that she was interested in Ron while Lily did, to current knowledge, not show any interest besides friendship.This is true, but we didn't see the daily interactions between Snape and Lily either, the way we did with Ron and Hermione.

Hermione and Ron had a different history.

Hermione did display evidence that she was interested in Ron while Lily did, to current knowledge, not show any interest besides friendship.

You know I really think this line of speculation just comes down to interpretation. I personally see the possiblity and so do others but I can see where some may not. :)

I think a lot of us were very surprised that Snape loved anyone besides the Dark Arts, but Lily that was a revelation I wasn't even thinking about. It explains that Snapes feelings about James were not based on just a disliking of a person who appeared to be above the school rules and was well liked by everyone in the school, but it was his love for Lily, that's what I think really led him down the dark path. When she was sorted into another house, and didn't join him in Sytherin that was the start but can you imagine how he must have felt when she married James and had a son by him and then to have that child come to Hogwarts, another reminder of what he lost. I'm just glad that he didn't die a traitor after all and that he didn't actually kill Dumbledore. Very satisfying ending to a wonderful series. :relax:

You know I really think this line of speculation just comes down to interpretation. I personally see the possiblity and so do others but I can see where some may not.

You're right.

Only Jk Rowling can answer it and I hope she does.

I am strongly averse to the idea of Snape and LIly being a couple.

You're right.

Only Jk Rowling can answer it and I hope she does.

I am strongly averse to the idea of Snape and LIly being a couple.

:lol: Well it isn't anything you have to worry about because they were not a couple. Snape's love went unrequited. Some people like me just believe that there was a possiblity of that if not for Snape's choices.

This is true. But I'm sorry. The man had YEARS to move on. Like Voldy said, there were plenty other fish in the sea. It's not like he had a relationship with Lily, they were married, and then James stole her. He lost his chance when he was 11. You'd think by the time he was 35 he'd have moved on, at least a LITTLE bit. I love that he loved her enough to go through what he did. But I think he could have loved someone else as well.

Well the thing is Snape was not just in love with Lily, he loved her. Being in love is different from loving someone. Say a mother loves her child; no matter what the mother will still love the child, that is to say it is unconditional. In Snape's case the condition is death and he never stopped loving her because of her death. Lily was probably in love with James... that's how most people feel about thier husbands at frist... they only grow to love each other after a long while. (I think)

Snape couldn't get over Lily because you can''t stop loving someone. Just like a mother who looses her child would not stop loving the child, Snape would never stop loving Lily. I think that is what Voldemort and even to a certain extent Dumbeldore didn't know... Voldemort just thought he desired her, meaning it was a physical thing, Dumbledore thought he was in love with her...meaning it was temporary and could change but only Harry understood that he loved her... meaning it was permanent and unchangeable.

Am I making sense to anyone.

I think Lily was more interested in being friends with Snape. She certainly didn't like who he hung out with in the Slytherin house. It seems like his love was more one-sided. I have a hard time believing Lily would finally have given in to James if she wanted to be with Snape, he was certainly obvious with his feelings.

Here's a question though. We know how disappointed Snape was when Lily went to Gryffindor. If they were partners in Potions, which I believe they most likely were, I wonder how much it would've bugged him to hear Lily giving smart retorts to Slughorn about how she was glad to be in Gryffindor and not Slytherin. That can't have been fun for him. Poor Snape.

Well the thing is Snape was not just in love with Lily, he loved her. Being in love is different from loving someone. Say a mother loves her child; no matter what the mother will still love the child, that is to say it is unconditional. In Snape's case the condition is death and he never stopped loving her because of her death. Lily was probably in love with James... that's how most people feel about thier husbands at frist... they only grow to love each other after a long while. (I think)

Snape couldn't get over Lily because you can''t stop loving someone. Just like a mother who looses her child would not stop loving the child, Snape would never stop loving Lily. I think that is what Voldemort and even to a certain extent Dumbeldore didn't know... Voldemort just thought he desired her, meaning it was a physical thing, Dumbledore thought he was in love with her...meaning it was temporary and could change but only Harry understood that he loved her... meaning it was permanent and unchangeable.

Am I making sense to anyone.That makes perfect sense!! This I think is one of the best explanations I've read to date as well! BRAVO!

Thanks.

The way the Prince's Tale was written we see a progression. A little boy's crush on a little girl, a friendship blossoming over a discovery they have in common, being best friend's, falling in love with her and loving her.

Let me run and get the tissues now!

I clung to the theory that Snape loved Lily ever since the pensive scene in book 5. But i was surprised at the fact that they were friends. that i didn't see that coming. but i think JK did a good job explaining it. :)

I thought they might have known eachother because during the Occlumency scene he asked "To whom did the dog belong" As if he already knew some of the people in the picture. I thought right away that he was the awful boy. Then I noticed that it was never said where Lily and Petunia grew up, so i thought it could have been near Snape.

Although I had wholeheartedly supported this theory since Book 5, I was still completely taken away with the description of the intense, beautiful, and profound love Snape had for Lily. I am also one of those who bawled like a little baby (and I still tear up every time I think about it). It's even difficult for me to picture James Potter experiencing this kind of love for her, given the descriptions of his character, after reading this.
There is an old song by the Police that seems to capture Severus' feelings:
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/p/police/every+little+thing+she+does+is+magic_20110039.html

The way the Prince's Tale was written we see a progression. A little boy's crush on a little girl, a friendship blossoming over a discovery they have in common, being best friend's, falling in love with her and loving her.

Let me run and get the tissues now!

Well said. The Prince's Tale chapter really does have that flow to it. I think Jo did a really good job of wrapping up Snape's entire story in just on chapter. I think that wonderful scene ("All this time?" "Always") is just so poignant. Snape's love develops thorugh the chapter till it ultimately reaches this point. Where it is entirely pure. The one thing that redeems him. its heartbreaking. *sob*

:upset: We need to stop this. In the words of Albus: This is touching Severus.

I'll be all cried out by the end of August.

People who can only love once, intensely and obsessively.

And you believe that if a person only loves once that makes them evil?

LOL!
Never heard that one before. Maybe that's the result of shows like Sex & The City and the OC -- how dare someone (especially a girl) not have 700 boyfriends/dates/sex partners - what an EVIL notion to fall inlove with your one true love and remain loyal to that person the rest of your days. Even IF that person doesn't love you back. People marry and remarry in their lives. But if you ask them on their death bed - nine times out of ten everyone just has that ONE true love - two if they're lucky. It's just human nature and it's certainly NOT evil. That's freaking the funniest thing I ever heard.

:err:

Anyway, here's some stuff I wrote on the Sev's death thread - I think it's relevent here:


I would also like to say that I am thankful that this character exists in a mass literary work such as this. Maybe it will show people that things aren't always BLACK and WHITE. GOOD or BAD. That sometimes things happen in our lives that are so heartbreaking that we make rash wrong choices without thinking and come to regret them in the end. But that the love will always be there buried somewhere deep inside. Snape is a three dimensional character and a human being who was never surrounded by the love that he IMO deserved. So he reacted by pushing that love even further away and taking it out on those around him. Right? Probably not. But definitely HUMAN.

The other wonderful thing about the memories we saw was the arc of the relationship between Snape and Dumbledore. The arc reflected the growth of Snapes character. When we first see Dumbldedore he's looking at Snape with contempt and saying, "You disgust me." The moves onto Snape falling APART in Dumby's office and Dumby saying You want me to hid the BEST of you?

Then I love the part during the Yule Ball when Dumbledore says he thinks they make the students sort too soon and leaves Snape "Stricken" - I LOVED that part. It shows that Dumbledore acknowledges the brave, good part of Snape and by Snape being stricken I think the comment might have been the nicest thing anyone had ever told him since the good old day with Lily - revealing also that Snape may have, indeed, had a completely different life outside of Slytherin.

I think it's funny how Snape is in Dumby's office complaining about Harry and Dumby is just reading his magazine - like a father son relationship, almost.

Then when he's tending to Dumbledore's hand and he sounds "furious" while talking to him -- it's obvious he was scared to death that something worse could have happened to Dumbledore and that he has actually come to CARE about him. And Dumby echoes it with "What would I do without you?" Or whatever the line is. Whatever the case, their sardonic banter in that scene really paints the way the relationship has grown. It just really touched me. And then Dumbledore tearing up when he sees the doe patronus ---

Again, the arc of the relationship between Dumbledore and Sanpe IMO echoe the arc of Snape's character. This has to do with Lily in that if he could have been the courageous adult Snape as a child, he would have easily found his way to her.

And I DO think he had a chance with Lily. He had more than a chance. She was the kind of girl that wouldn't care what he looked like. (Although I think Alan Rickman is HOT as they come) Whatever the case, it was the fact that his friends dabbled in EVIL magic and he went along with it, it was Snape's draw to the dark arts that ultimately sundered their relationship. Lily was his and HE sabotaged HIMSELF.

I also think it's heart-wrending that because his bravery, his ability to stand up for what he loves comes to him later in life -- it's what lost him Lily. If he had the guts to resist the dark arts, to resist needing to fit in with his Slytherin friends, resist the need to fit IN period - then Lily was his. I love the tidbits about how he looked confident while they sat on the grass together -- it was obvious she had come to seeim that way and had come to seek him out b/c they were near the RIVER - the end of town where HE lived. How later at school she asks, "What does james have to do with anything?" He couldn't TELL her it was because he was JEALOUS. Then his gaze on her made her BLUSH. Guys I don't like don't make me blush. He just ruined it all with his choices. But you can also argue that his life circumstances didn't make better choices easier to make. He never knew love. He never had anyone propping him up except himself - and his fantasy world of beinga 'prince'.

Whatever, the case, it's just sad that her life and potential love didn't give him the guts to do the right thing - but her death did.

I think I knew it the minute Petunia said "That awful boy" I didn't think anyone would describe James as awful.

I was so stricken by the parallels between Severus and my all time favorite desperately self-sacrificing hero Sidney Carton from a "Tale of Two Cities." boohoohoo Why aren't there any men around like that now days!

I think that Lily's Patronus was a doe is a strong indicator that she was 100% smitten with James. It was true love. I think she maybe loved Snape as a friend, or a brother. But never as a lover.

I agree, to her it was just a beautiful friendship between two equals. She didn't love him physically. Severus ( a very controlled and shy person) loved her because she was beautiful and also clever.

I always thought that being harsh and unfair in class was his method tho help Harry. After all, potions is a difficult and dangerous subjiect. Clearly some form of punishment of james was welcomed to ease the constant torture of his remorses.

Snape was always my favourite character, thought he was in love with Lily but didn't know how deep it went.....now I feel more sorry for him than ever.

LOL!
Never heard that one before. Maybe that's the result of shows like Sex & The City and the OC -- how dare someone (especially a girl) not have 700 boyfriends/dates/sex partners - what an EVIL notion to fall inlove with your one true love and remain loyal to that person the rest of your days. Even IF that person doesn't love you back.
:rotfl:
People marry and remarry in their lives. But if you ask them on their death bed - nine times out of ten everyone just has that ONE true love - two if they're lucky.
I think that's true. For me, the thing that makes it so sad is that Severus never ever moved on. He clung onto his love for Lily. No wonder he always seemed so bitter and angry. He was a decent man underneath it all - just destroyed by his own feelings that he never really dealt with.

Even though I'me very sure lily didn't feel anything for Snape I'm not going to rule out that there wasn't a chance.She was afterall friends with him,there must have been something good about him(I'm saying this becasue I don't think Liliy would have continued the friendship for so long if there wasn't).I wonder why after Lily was sorted into Gryffindor that Snape didn't maybe want to be in Gryffindor too,he was brave(in a way).

Even though I'me very sure lily didn't feel anything for Snape I'm not going to rule out that there wasn't a chance.She was afterall friends with him,there must have been something good about him(I'm saying this becasue I don't think Liliy would have continued the friendship for so long if there wasn't).I wonder why after Lily was sorted into Gryffindor that Snape didn't maybe want to be in Gryffindor too,he was brave(in a way).

Snape made a choice. He wanted to be in Slytherin. We've seen it happening to Harry and Dumbledore confirms it; It is not about our abilities but about our choices.

I know Lily and Snape were friends in the beginning but I somehow doubt they would have been friends if Lily had met him for the first time at Hogwarts. Their friendship in the early stages was purely because they were neighbours. Snape was first wizard Lily ever knew. He was intelligent so they could converse with each other easily. But there were and still are too many differences in their personalities for their friendship to have blossomed into anything stronger. Right from the beginning Snape does not understand Lily's loyalty towards Petunia purely because she was a muggle.
Snape rubs off his antics as a laugh. Lily however find it evil. James often went a little too far but that was because of immaturity. He grew out of it. But he was never evil.
Snape willingly became a death eater. He wanted to join Lord Voldemort. It was a chocie Lily would have never made.
Snape did not join Dumbledore and the Order because he had realised that he was morally wrong. He did it to honor Lily's sacrifice.
Thats why Lily could have never loved him. They believed in different ideals and principles.

Hiya! Due to really sucky timing by my server, this is the first time I've been able to post since the book came out. :grumble:

I think that "The Prince's Tale" was probably my favourite chapter in the book. I don't know if it's because I'm sooo old, but I was much more interested in the older characters' fates rather than Harry's. I suspected that Lily and Snape had a background relationship, but I was surprised by the intensity of Snape's feelings for Lily. I love how Toonmili described the relationship in a post - beautifully expressed. :tu:

After I read this chapter I went back and read the part where Snape says to Harry "Look at me" and it had so much more meaning and I just SOBBED :upset:

I feel compelled to point out that you are factually wrong on both these points. In one of the memories Harry sees, Snape tries to save the life of Moony (when he accidentally cuts of George's ear), even though he is in a Death Eater raid and if any of them had figure out what he did...you can bet his life would have been in danger.

And he refused to let Phineas Nigellus use the word "Mudblood" of Hermione, in another memory. Snape's copntinuing love for Lily was the thing that helped to transform him into someone that was truly worthy of the credit Harry gave him at the end, by naming his son after him and calling him "the bravest man I ever knew".


Snape did deserve the title of the "bravest man" Harry knew.
But in their school days Snape would have never risked his life to save someone else.
Dumbledore tells Harry that James would have forgiven Peter and saved him as well.
But the night Wormtail escaped Snape was so intent on killing Sirius because he could never forgive Sirius for what he believed Sirius had done to Lily. Snape could not forgive.
I might be wrong but I think Dumbledore told Phineas not to use the word mudblood.

I was mainly trying to point out the differences between the choices James and Snape made and why the parting of ways when it came to Lily and Snape was bound to happen.

Also the fact that Lily's patronus was a doe is proof of the fact that she did love James.

But I also agree that being so close to Dumbledore, his continued love for Lily and his guilt about her death did help him to become a better person.

I was mainly trying to point out the differences between the choices James and Snape made and why the parting of ways when it came to Lily and Snape was bound to happen.

Also the fact that Lily's patronus was a doe is proof of the fact that she did love James.

But I also agree that being so close to Dumbledore, his continued love for Lily and his guilt about her death did help him to become a better person.

as Dumbledore always said, the one thing Voldemort never understood, the one thing that only matters and makes all the difference in the world is LOVE.

i don't like but i kinda understand why Snape was drawn towards the dark arts in his youth (with his history of missing love), in a way like Voldemort.

luckily Harry escaped this since he experienced his parents love in his first year (the most important phase of childhood, i think).

i also believe that Snape didn't just love Lily for her beauty and wit but also because he knew that she was a very special and wonderful person. of course, in his worst memory he felt so humiliated that he even went so low as to call her a mudblood (don't most of us hurt our loved ones when we are in a rage?).

anyway, in other circumstances, i do believe that Lily and Severus could have been a couple - but as it was ........

i do agree with Harry to call Snape the bravest man, with virtually noone to confide in and enemies on all sides - doing the right thing without getting credit for it and all this because he lost his one true love .. sooooo sad *sniff*


PS. Lily having a doe as a patronus doesn't necessarily mean that she was so very much in love with James, maybe more that they were made for each other, right? .. i don't know, though. i wouldn't think that Lily's patronus changed when she fell in love with James.

Wouldn't you love to know what Snape's patronus was before it became a doe?

I was mainly trying to point out the differences between the choices James and Snape made and why the parting of ways when it came to Lily and Snape was bound to happen.

Also the fact that Lily's patronus was a doe is proof of the fact that she did love James.

It is the matter of choices again.Snape made the wrong ones,ones that he spent the rest of his life regretting.I'm not saying that he should be forgiving or what he did(he did some bad things),as they were his own choices.But he did seem to geuninly regret what he did.That's what causes a problem for me ,the strength of the two oppoing forces,his decision to be a deatheater(which he actively choose over lily),and his decision to leave the dark arts(for the sake of his love),and risk what he had left(which to him was probablyvery little).Sorry if that doesn't make sense.

Are we told that Lily's patronus was a doe?

Are we told that Lily's patronus was a doe?

Actually, no, right? I don't think so...? We don't know if Lupin's patronus was a werewolf, do we? Just that Tonks' was. Maybe a doe was representative of Lily for Snape, not her actual patronus.
I think Snape made some really good choices, though. I think it might be even harder to go backwards in your steps and leave the Dark Arts once you've immersed yourself, and leave Voldemort once you've entered into his service, than to never enter either. And I also understand why it's easier for someone like Snape to become attracted to the Dark Arts than someone like James, who was loved as a child and friends. And yes, it would've been understandable that Sirius had gone his way as well, but then he had a lot of things going for him Snape didn't, and made friends with the right people. That's just a thought, though.

Yes, we are.

'Snape's Patronus was a doe,' said Harry, 'the same as my mother's [...]

It is the matter of choices again.Snape made the wrong ones,ones that he spent the rest of his life regretting.I'm not saying that he should be forgiving or what he did(he did some bad things),as they were his own choices.But he did seem to geuninly regret what he did.That's what causes a problem for me ,the strength of the two oppoing forces,his decision to be a deatheater(which he actively choose over lily),and his decision to leave the dark arts(for the sake of his love),and risk what he had left(which to him was probablyvery little).Sorry if that doesn't make sense.

Lily's death made Snape rectify his choices. What he did to honor her sacrifice and save Harry is astounding and truly admirable. He became a better man.
But the point is that had Lily not died would Snape have ever tried to retrace his steps?

Are we told that Lily's patronus was a doe?

In pg 593 of HPDH Harry says" Snape's patronus was a doe; the same as my mother's."

As much as we wish it weren't true (well I do, anyway) I think we have to admit Lily did love James and I doubt she died thinking she had made the wrong choice. But I'd like to think she still cared for Severus and cared enough to wish he woud leave Voldemort. Remember they were all so young, just 21- when you're that age and you love someone, you love them forever it feels like. She probably fell for James completely and stayed out of touch with Snape from then on. They must have been out of contact completely because ortherwise why wouldn't Snape go directly to them both to warn them, rather than going through Dumbledore.

And I also understand why it's easier for someone like Snape to become attracted to the Dark Arts than someone like James, who was loved as a child and friends. And yes, it would've been understandable that Sirius had gone his way as well, but then he had a lot of things going for him Snape didn't, and made friends with the right people. That's just a thought, though.

I agree. The power over others and the ability to frighten and impress must be very appealing for those who have never felt empowered, or have always felt frightened and impotent. Snape had a dreadful childhood by all accounts and obviously felt the pull of magic that seemed to offer the power he always felt alluded him. IMO - That is why DD made such a big deal about Harry turning out good despite all his "issues". It is one thing to reject the Dark Arts when you have everything going for you, a completely different scenario for someone who has had that exposure to the dark side and chooses to go the way of light.

Was that explained properly? :hmm: I am under the influence of a heck of a lot of cold medication. :lol:

. And I also understand why it's easier for someone like Snape to become attracted to the Dark Arts than someone like James, who was loved as a child and friends. And yes, it would've been understandable that Sirius had gone his way as well, but then he had a lot of things going for him Snape didn't, and made friends with the right people. That's just a thought, though.


Sirius never had a lot of things going for him in the beginning. He obviously faced a lot of opposition in his early years. But Sirius was determined to go against what his family belived in. Sirius consciously tried to follow what he believed in and never gave into pressure. It is to Sirius' credit that he made the right choices and friends. His friends weren't made for him.
In the Prince's Tale James says "Blimely! I thought you were alright."
Sirius had the grace to laugh at the statement.

Harry was equally neglected and uncared for when he joined Hogwarts. But he was also never drawn to the Dark Arts. Infact having a piecfe of Voldemorts soul inside him should have drawn him towards the Dark Arts. I assume thats why the Sorting Hat wanted to put him into Slytherin. But Harry chose differently.

I t is a matter of choices, but i think harry's choice was largely influenced by what Hagdird had told him. Children tend to idolise the people close to them ... so snape's liking for Slytherin may have come from his mother's opinions.
Sirius does stand out on that account :)

by the way .. how did Harry know Lilly's patronus was a doe? i dont remember it being mentioned anytime :-?

He probably figured it out the way we did, by knowing his Dad's was a Stag, knowing his parents loved each other and knowing Snape loved his mother. I wonder what Harry really felt when he found out, about how Snape felt I mean, it must have been a shock to him- although since we know what he knows, and we guessed, maybe it was just like something falling into place.

Remember, James' patronus was not a stag, he only turned into one as an animagus. Harry has the stag patronus that represents his father.

From the quote above, we know that Lily has the same patronus. I do not believe it is mentioned, but more inferred.

44 pages this thread! :lol:

I guess I'll add to the joy here at reading The Prince's Tale chapter, one of those moments when I could hardly believe I was really reading what I had suspected for a long time. Gosh, it must've been hard for JKR to sit on that knowledge for so many years! And it shows Dumbledore really could be trusted, Harry always thought Dumbledore was naive in his trust of Snape but he just had no clue what the real truth was. What a moment for Harry.

I hope the movie is insanely long and does justice to this part of the story, Alan Rickman would just knock this out of the ballpark and hopefully we'll get to see the lovely Geraldine Somerville again, unless they get younger new actors for the teenage scenes.

In any case, it was a truly amazing moment in the book, the one where I was saying Yes, Yes, Yes!! as I was reading. It TOTALLY got me that his Patronus was a doe, that was the one part that was just devastating, I didn't cry but it was so heartbreaking. "After all this time? :upset:

Remember, James' patronus was not a stag, he only turned into one as an animagus. Harry has the stag patronus that represents his father.

From the quote above, we know that Lily has the same patronus. I do not believe it is mentioned, but more inferred.

I agree.though I think a doe is a good represntaion of Lily,kind, gentle, quick and nible(which could be taken as intelligent and skilled).

As for Snape and his attraction to the dark arts,he was in slytherin,dark arts must have been hard to avoid.The whole atmosphere of slytherin has to be taken into account(not used as an excuse though).

I don't understand how anyone could read the Prince's Tale and not cry! :(

I agree.though I think a doe is a good represntaion of Lily,kind, gentle, quick and nible(which could be taken as intelligent and skilled).

As for Snape and his attraction to the dark arts,he was in slytherin,dark arts must have been hard to avoid.The whole atmosphere of slytherin has to be taken into account(not used as an excuse though).

I think this is critical. While there are Slytherins who are not evil or malevolent people and there members of other houses who serve evil (Peter for one) or do evil in the heat of the moment, much was made of the fact that Slytherin was the odd men out, I think in terms of ethics or ideology.

As a child, Snape was unguided, unloved (except by Lily and maybe his mother), not well cared for, out of place among Muggles and raised to believe in Slytherin superiority by his mother. Hogwarts should have been a refuge for him from a childhood filled with misery (again, except for Lily).

Being sorted to Slytherin did two things: separated him from Lily to some degree, and gave him someplace where he "belonged". Granted some of his comrades at school were users - not real friends, they didn't care about Severus except for what he could do for them, but it had to seem like at least he was among people like himself, his "tribe" for lack of a better word.

I think the culture to which he was introduced at Hogwarts, and his own intellectual curiosity, and probably a bit of ego (Sev's not perfect) lead him to the Dark Arts. From there, after causing the end of his friendship with Lily by his own misdirected anger, he didn't have Lily's influence to mitigate the influences of his death eater wannabe "friends". The rest was not surprising for a young man who enjoyed having power and wanting to belong somewhere.

So, Lily was the one person, except for maybe Dumbledore, who had Severus's best interests at heart in those days, because she believed there was goodness inside him. He threw that away with some careless words and she had to cut him loose because he had made his choice and she couldn't save him from himself. He had to save himself.

Nevertheless, he never got over Lily - because she was the one person who had loved him, befriended him, and cared about him. And she warned him not to get involved with the dark arts and some of the people he was associating with. Tragically, his involvement with those people and Valdimort lead to Lily's murder.

This is where his love for Lily transformed him. He put his love for Lily ahead of his allegience to Valdimort and Death Eaters. He put his own life in risk to aid Dumbledore and protect Lily's son, even though it had to be a stab in his heart everytime he looked at Harry's face so much a reminder of his father, and of the fact that Lily was gone. Severus was able to be saved because he loved her. He was able to be redeemed because he was repentant. He was able to be forgiven.

As much as we wish it weren't true (well I do, anyway) I think we have to admit Lily did love James and I doubt she died thinking she had made the wrong choice. But I'd like to think she still cared for Severus and cared enough to wish he woud leave Voldemort. Remember they were all so young, just 21- when you're that age and you love someone, you love them forever it feels like. She probably fell for James completely and stayed out of touch with Snape from then on. They must have been out of contact completely because ortherwise why wouldn't Snape go directly to them both to warn them, rather than going through Dumbledore.

I believe that you are right and I think that the turning point for Lily was Snape calling her a Mudblood. She knew that she was and she probably thought that it was what the likes of him (DE) would have thought of her, but to hear it from her first magical friend was a blow that she could not take. I believe that her concern for him was derived from this childhood connection. His reference to her as a Mudblood was too much of a betrayal, the final act that convinced Lily that Snape was truly a DE and Slytherin at heart. From what Lupin told Harry in HBP, James was arrogant as a youth but his arrogance would never have lured him to the dark side and he never would have betrayed Lily like that.

All I can tell you is that Snape is the one who is always waiting on the doorstep of the school when Harry is late to return, such as in Book 2 or in HBP. Snape is angry with him, but if you think about it in the context of Snape/Lily, Snape must have been afraid that something had happened to Harry also. The way he talks to Harry and Ron in CoS is almost word for word what Molly Weasley says in her howler to Ron, so he sounds like an angry parent.

And then there is the way he and Sirius argue over Harry in OotP, which always sounds like a custody fight to me. Snape shows up with a letter from Dumbledore saying that he has a right to talk to Harry alone, but Sirius won't let him. Dumbledore knew how Snape felt about Lily, but Sirius doesn't even consider that, and I think that goes back to what JKR said once about Sirius not recognizing Snape's "latent good qualities."

So, yeah - I do think he began to care about Harry. Unfortunately, that's about the time Harry really started to hate Snape due to the death of Sirius.


Yeah, I'm starting to be convinced that Snape did actually care for Harry too.
Like you pointed out, Snape is the one that almost always turns up first when Harry's in trouble. It was unpleasant till before the 7th book but now that everything is revealed I guess this was Snape's own expression of care.

I've gone back to the previous books looking for hints, too. :hmm:
In OoTP when Harry is hurt by the malfoy cronies, after Tonks Snape was the first to get there. Also when Malfoy and Harry fight in the bathroom and Harry uses 'sectumsempra' it's Snape who just happens to burst in there.

Sirius never had a lot of things going for him in the beginning. He obviously faced a lot of opposition in his early years. But Sirius was determined to go against what his family belived in. Sirius consciously tried to follow what he believed in and never gave into pressure. It is to Sirius' credit that he made the right choices and friends. His friends weren't made for him.
In the Prince's Tale James says "Blimely! I thought you were alright."
Sirius had the grace to laugh at the statement.

Harry was equally neglected and uncared for when he joined Hogwarts. But he was also never drawn to the Dark Arts. Infact having a piecfe of Voldemorts soul inside him should have drawn him towards the Dark Arts. I assume thats why the Sorting Hat wanted to put him into Slytherin. But Harry chose differently.

That's true, what I meant was not necessarily background but a natural sort of power and arrogance (which does come from his family, Bellatrix seems to have that too, which shows how the same trait can go to very different ways...), a sort of confidence talked about in the James/Sirius/Lupin/Peter memories, very handsome, and with very cool friends. This was the opposite for Snape, who never had anything of the sort-he had friends, but he was never cool, he wasn't good-looking, he seemed to hide and crouch rather than walk straight and confident in those memories. So I thought that the DA would be more appealing to Snape than Sirius because Sirius already had power and confidence and a feeling of worthiness, either from himself or his friends or his situation in school, and in a good way. Snape had none of that and had some awful friends. But I agree that it would've been easy for Sirius to go the same way his family did. It's just hard to say Sirius was a better person because, though I loved Sirius, Snape is my favorite :). So I'm simply biased ;).

I was really shocked by the deepness of snapes love for lilly and that it started in childhood. I thought it was one of the best story lines throughout the series and that it was a very satisfying ending.

Thank you for that! :lol:I needed a good laugh after all this heart-wrenching what-might-have-been sadness.

Good God, LV really WAS completely clueless, wasn't he? "Sure, I killed her, Severus, but what are you whining about? There are still plenty of hot pure-blood chicks out there - and I probably won't kill all of them!" :p



Aha! And it's a birth month, as we learned in DH, that Severus shares with...Lily.

Severus b. January 9, 1960
Lily b. January 30, 1960

Way cool factoid, alwaysme! :tu:

Haha that is funny....LV giving that talk, I've given it before and its probably as human as Voldemort got with Snape. Yes Severus just desired her...more like was in love with her.

Did he say Snape saw other women after that? I can't remember exactly...

Well the thing is Snape was not just in love with Lily, he loved her. Being in love is different from loving someone. Say a mother loves her child; no matter what the mother will still love the child, that is to say it is unconditional. In Snape's case the condition is death and he never stopped loving her because of her death. Lily was probably in love with James... that's how most people feel about thier husbands at frist... they only grow to love each other after a long while. (I think)

Snape couldn't get over Lily because you can''t stop loving someone. Just like a mother who looses her child would not stop loving the child, Snape would never stop loving Lily. I think that is what Voldemort and even to a certain extent Dumbeldore didn't know... Voldemort just thought he desired her, meaning it was a physical thing, Dumbledore thought he was in love with her...meaning it was temporary and could change but only Harry understood that he loved her... meaning it was permanent and unchangeable.

Am I making sense to anyone.

That makes a lot of sense! No one could of stopped him from loving her....and it is different oddly now i look at it, being IN love and loving....

:upset: We need to stop this. In the words of Albus: This is touching Severus.

I'll be all cried out by the end of August.

Haha same here....its just, and this is way this thread is so long, Severus Snape is such a interesting, complex, and honestly a more attractive death character. But really I will be cried out too...I always get teary!

So was the anagram of Severus Snape, Perseus/Persues Evans a ....coincidence?


Severus Snape ~ Born a Half-Blood. Died a Prince.

So was the anagram of Severus Snape, Perseus/Persues Evans a ....coincidence?
I always found this one more symbolic: The names Snape & Evans are mirror images of one another except for two letters -- "P" as in Potter and "V" as in Voldemort.

I think it’s meant to be that Snape wanted to see Lily’s eyes again before he died. I can’t imagine Snape, the man who loved Lily so much, could be the only person who ever met Harry that didn’t notice the Lily in his eyes.
No, of course he knew Harry had Lily's eyes and saw them. That's not what I meant. Now that I think about it, I'm not so sure what I meant, at all :0) Or I can't put it in comprehensible words at least. So never mind, you're right.

Another thought I just had. Everyone always seems to explain the animosity between Snape and James with Snape being jealous - how many times haven't we heard that "James was everything Snape wasn't...". However, now we know for sure Snape, for a long time, possessed something James wanted and could not get, not that he didn't try - namely Lily's affection. Although she might not have had romantic feelings for Snape, she sure gave him a great deal more credit than James, whom she called a "toerag", I think.
Could it be possible that the jealousy wasn't just coming from Snape, that it was a two-way thing? That it all sprang from the in many respects more attractive James trying to win over Lily from her best friend? Am I being too far-fetched again?

I always *knew* Snape loved Lily - well, as much as you can possibly know anything when it is all theory and sleuthing.

I have been waiting since OotP when I read Petunia mentioning that awful boy and of course Snape's worst memory for it to be said.

When I was reading DH the first time through, I was getting desperate for 'proof' and I cried when the Doe Patronus appeared.

Snape for me, was always the best character, and I love that he split us readers right down the middle - because it proves how good at his job he was, he fooled Voldemort, and he fooled some of the best Harry Potter 'sleuths' around.
I wish his death had been more honourable, but I like to think that as he crossed the veil he met with all those who passed over and Lily & 'Sev' became best friends once more.



Have to say - Kadaj010 - your sig is lovely

I still don't get why "Snape's worst memory" was, in fact, his worst memory. Pre-DH, not knowing of his feelings for her, I assumed that, having lived through the first war, surely he'd seen something worse. Now, post-DH, I would think that his worst memory would be finding out that she had been killed. I was obviously wrong before and am still wrong.
Actually I find that intriguing! Snape's worst memory was not the day Lily died, but the day he finally ruined their friendship by calling her a Mudblood - the day he "lost" her. I think that illustrates the way he felt about her very well. It was an obsessive and a possessive love, not true, unselfish love. Snape never wanted what was best for Lily - he only wanted to have her. This is clearly illustrated by the fact that he would willingly have let Harry, Lily's only child, be murdered as long as Lily was spared. Lily herself wanted the opposite and achieved it with her self-sacrifice - demonstrating what true love is!

Actually I find that intriguing! Snape's worst memory was not the day Lily died, but the day he finally ruined their friendship by calling her a Mudblood - the day he "lost" her. I think that illustrates the way he felt about her very well. It was an obsessive and a possessive love, not true, unselfish love. Snape never wanted what was best for Lily - he only wanted to have her. This is clearly illustrated by the fact that he would willingly have let Harry, Lily's only child, be murdered as long as Lily was spared. Lily herself wanted the opposite and achieved it with her self-sacrifice - demonstrating what true love is!

Maybe it was, in Snape's mind the moment where it all began to go wrong. Perhaps he felt that if was not for what he said then they would have remained friends and all that followed would nt have occured.
He was a tortured soul.

Actually I find that intriguing! Snape's worst memory was not the day Lily died, but the day he finally ruined their friendship by calling her a Mudblood - the day he "lost" her. I think that illustrates the way he felt about her very well. It was an obsessive and a possessive love, not true, unselfish love. Snape never wanted what was best for Lily - he only wanted to have her. This is clearly illustrated by the fact that he would willingly have let Harry, Lily's only child, be murdered as long as Lily was spared. Lily herself wanted the opposite and achieved it with her self-sacrifice - demonstrating what true love is!
It wasn't just the day he "lost" her. It was the day he truly chose the wrong course and set in motion the events that would ultimately end in her death.

This has been pointed out before, but he was desperate to save Lily, whom he still thought of and spoke of as "Lily Evans" on that hilltop. When Dumbledore called him on his blinkered view with respect to Lily's family, Snape then immediately agreed to do "Anything" to save them all. At that point, what could he have hoped to get in return? Nothing but the continued survival of Lily AND her family, which in my opinion, was a great act of selfless, true love.

Snape's desperation out of love is what allowed Lily's sacrifice and spared Harry. If Snape hadn't been desperate enough to beg Voldemort to spare her, then she never would have been given the chance to step aside and baby Harry would have died.

Snape then immediately agreed to do "Anything" to save them all. At that point, what could he have hoped to get in return?
As I see it, Snape agreed to saving the whole family because he saw that this was the only way to ensure Dumbledore's help. (Of course, Dumbledore would have done everything in his power to save them anyway. I don't know why Snape didn't realise this.)

I've been re-reading loads of Snape quotes from books 1-6 and really, as much as I love Snape and am so happy he has been vindicated and redeemed in the eyes of those who hated him, I am finding it hard to believe that he cared for Harry as much as we, and DD, wish he did. I can stretch to believing that part of Snape, a part he repressed, saw Lily in Harry and wanted to reach out to him, but most of him saw an arrogant little James clone and hated Harry for what he represented. The part of Snape that wanted to see Lily in Harry did exist though, and I think all the detentions Snape gives Harry, particularly in HBP, are maybe because he wants to be near the closest link to Lily he'll ever have. When Harry is sitting there for hours re-writing Filch's cards, Snape must just be sitting there thinking about Lily and hating James.

I always found this one more symbolic: The names Snape & Evans are mirror images of one another except for two letters -- "P" as in Potter and "V" as in Voldemort.

Ooh, I never heard that one before. Cool. But that Severus Snape anagram has been around for almost forever.

It annoys me SO much that we did not get any closure for his character...or any other for that matter..

Snape's desperation out of love is what allowed Lily's sacrifice and spared Harry. If Snape hadn't been desperate enough to beg Voldemort to spare her, then she never would have been given the chance to step aside and baby Harry would have died.ZOMG! That is SOOO true! :wow:

I wish I had found this whole forum alot sooner...like after OTTP....

I was convinced that Snape was the most evil person in the books (after LV of course). I was shocked when I read "the Prince's Tale" chapter, and I sobbed while reading it. What a beautiful chapter, and I loved how JKR was able to completely change your feelings toward this character I so despised. I had no idea about Lily and Snape's previous relationship, or about Snape's feelings for her (and had not read any of the theories either). I was thinking....how could I have missed such an important aspect of Snape's character??

I went back and read SWM in OTTP, and I actually think it's quite a big leap from Lily sticking up for Snape after James and Sirius taunt and hex him, to that they have a friendship and that Snape has feelings for her. I understood this scene as Lily just being a good person and wanting to protect someone from rude taunts. After all, she thought James was a jerk at this time...Great that you all picked up on it, though--bravo!!

One other observation I had when reading the prince's tale chapter...when Dumbledore asks Snape if he still loves Lily, and he say's "always", I thought of the scene in "Pride and Prejudice", at the end when Darcy tells Elizabeth, "You must know, I did it all for you",....so poignent, and really sums up how Snape was able to 1) keep up the spy act and appear to be a Death Eater, when he really was Dumbledore's man, and 2) help Harry while all the while seeing James his enemy. Wow!!

Most of you have already stated this better than I can, but just wanted to share...

One other observation I had when reading the prince's tale chapter...when Dumbledore asks Snape if he still loves Lily, and he say's "always", I thought of the scene in "Pride and Prejudice", at the end when Darcy tells Elizabeth, "You must know, I did it all for you",....so poignent, and really sums up how Snape was able to 1) keep up the spy act and appear to be a Death Eater, when he really was Dumbledore's man, and 2) help Harry while all the while seeing James his enemy. Wow!!



Nice Mr Darcy reference :love:
Speaking of Mr Darcy, and Jane Austen, and Snape, I was watching Sense and Sensibility with the fabulous Alan Rickman, and thought of how I can't wait to see him doing heartbroken Snape :)

As I see it, Snape agreed to saving the whole family because he saw that this was the only way to ensure Dumbledore's help. (Of course, Dumbledore would have done everything in his power to save them anyway. I don't know why Snape didn't realise this.)
But he didn't leave it to Dumbledore. He agreed to do anything Dumbledore asked him to do, and kept his word to the day he died. He risked torture and death if his alliance with Dumbledore was discovered, and got nothing in return for himself. That's pretty much the very definition of selfless.

I've been thinking about the debate about whether or not Lily loved Snape. I think the patronus information is interesting and got me thinking. James was a Stag as an animagus and the Stag is represented in the Snape family crest, so what if Lilly's patronus is the result of the two men in her life that she loved. As children and friends they bonded, Lily and Sev, but then as they grew older and I think in as much as it hurt Lily, they grew apart. Lily was too much of a good person to be able to tolerate Snapes's Slytherin loyalties as they got older and she saw more and more what those loyalties meant. Her love for Snape had been a love born out of innocence almost.

Her love for James, well I guess he must have done a lot of improving when he got older. Because no matter what house his victims were in, I just don't see Lily loving someone who could do the things James did. I mean he was just mean to be mean. :grumble: Or...light bulb---maybe I'm slow...we really only see James being cruel to Snape...Could it be jealousy?

And you believe that if a person only loves once that makes them evil?No, but when they let their love control their lives and focus on nothing else and treat everyone else horribly and are wiling to do ANYTHING in the name of their love, that's when evil happen. Not so much that the person is evil, but that evil happens.

I've been thinking about the debate about whether or not Lily loved Snape. I think the patronus information is interesting and got me thinking. James was a Stag as an animagus and the Stag is represented in the Snape family crest, so what if Lilly's patronus is the result of the two men in her life that she loved. As children and friends they bonded, Lily and Sev, but then as they grew older and I think in as much as it hurt Lily, they grew apart. Lily was too much of a good person to be able to tolerate Snapes's Slytherin loyalties as they got older and she saw more and more what those loyalties meant. Her love for Snape had been a love born out of innocence almost.

Her love for James, well I guess he must have done a lot of improving when he got older. Because no matter what house his victims were in, I just don't see Lily loving someone who could do the things James did. I mean he was just mean to be mean. :grumble: Or...light bulb---maybe I'm slow...we really only see James being cruel to Snape...Could it be jealousy?
The marauders say he was mean to others, then stopped, but never stopped with Snape...because he was an 'exception'....I like this jealousy theory.

Heheh...you know what would be the perfect anthem for this relationship? Creep by radiohead....:lol: Oh, I'll second that!

Her love for James, well I guess he must have done a lot of improving when he got older. Because no matter what house his victims were in, I just don't see Lily loving someone who could do the things James did. I mean he was just mean to be mean. :grumble: Or...light bulb---maybe I'm slow...we really only see James being cruel to Snape...Could it be jealousy?
We hear about other victims though. One by name in OotP -- Bertram Aubrey -- on the disciplinary cards. Harry feels numerous twists in his gut when reading other cards, but we don't learn any further details or names of those injured. There's also Lily's comment that James hexed anyone that annoyed him. I think that's plenty of evidence that the cruelty wasn't confined to Snape, though as Lupin says, Snape was a "special case," so I would think from that comment that jealousy over his friendship with Lily did play a role.

I went back and read SWM in OTTP, and I actually think it's quite a big leap from Lily sticking up for Snape after James and Sirius taunt and hex him, to that they have a friendship and that Snape has feelings for her. I understood this scene as Lily just being a good person and wanting to protect someone from rude taunts. After all, she thought James was a jerk at this time...Great that you all picked up on it, though--bravo!!
Just to clarify, Lily standing up for Snape in SWM wasn't really the crux of the Snape/Lily theories. It was more Snape's absolute silence with regard to Lily, the vehemence toward Sirius in the Shrieking Shack, asphodel & wormwood in the first potions lesson, Snape's paleness & extreme anger upon seeing the image of James & Lily in Harry's memories during occlumency, his "fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves" speech, "that awful boy," etc. etc.. On it's own, SWM could certainly be seen merely as Lily being "decent" as Harry called her, but in concert with all the other little clues, it was possible it was much more, and indeed did turn out to be.

well, hermione's sis, if it makes you feel any better I also thought snape was evil and never really looked further, and now I'm despairing that I didn't pay better attention. As to what Hagatha Christie said:

Snape's desperation out of love is what allowed Lily's sacrifice and spared Harry. If Snape hadn't been desperate enough to beg Voldemort to spare her, then she never would have been given the chance to step aside and baby Harry would have died.

very well said!

What is the asphodel and wormwood clue, I never heard that before.

Just to clarify, Lily standing up for Snape in SWM wasn't really the crux of the Snape/Lily theories. It was more Snape's absolute silence with regard to Lily, the vehemence toward Sirius in the Shrieking Shack, asphodel & wormwood in the first potions lesson, Snape's paleness & extreme anger upon seeing the image of James & Lily in Harry's memories during occlumency, his "fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves" speech, "that awful boy," etc. etc.. On it's own, SWM could certainly be seen merely as Lily being "decent" as Harry called her, but in concert with all the other little clues, it was possible it was much more, and indeed did turn out to be.
I think that was my problem. When then Snape/Lily theories first came out they weren't wonderfully well-formed, and I dismissed it. At the beginning I don't think the evidence was all found yet, so it was a little weak. And since I love Lily and loathe Snape, I didn't like, so I ignored it. Never even visited those threads. My jaw dropped when we found out it was true in DH. Pretty sure my face was beet-red too. It's funny, because this and Dumbledore asking Snape to kill him were the two theories I disliked the most, and they were both true. Oh, and Harry being a horcrux. I was so off. But I got the little things, lol!

[. . .] When she was sorted into another house, and didn't join him in Sytherin that was the start [. . .]

But he was sorted after Lily, so he had a choice to go in the same house as her. I was interested in the sorting part: the second the hat touched Lily's head it chose Gryffindor, which means she did not give Snape even a chance, she did not consider even for one moment being with him in Slytherin. Perhaps at that moment she was already, if subconsciously, taken with James's gesture of raising the sword and saying Gryffindor is where dwell the brave of heart. Then, I stared at how long it took for the hat to put Snape in Slytherin, and we are just not told! But it seems like it wasn't just one second, perhaps. Maybe he did think about it for a little bit, but decided to go with Slytherin. If he sensed he had no chance with Lily, maybe he didn't want to lose his identity entirely by going to Gryffindor.

His Patronus shows that in his love there are some identity issues though. With James and Lily, the patronuses are matched, but not identical. With Snape and Lily, they have the exact same patronus.

I've been re-reading loads of Snape quotes from books 1-6 and really, as much as I love Snape and am so happy he has been vindicated and redeemed in the eyes of those who hated him, I am finding it hard to believe that he cared for Harry as much as we, and DD, wish he did. I can stretch to believing that part of Snape, a part he repressed, saw Lily in Harry and wanted to reach out to him, but most of him saw an arrogant little James clone and hated Harry for what he represented. The part of Snape that wanted to see Lily in Harry did exist though, and I think all the detentions Snape gives Harry, particularly in HBP, are maybe because he wants to be near the closest link to Lily he'll ever have. When Harry is sitting there for hours re-writing Filch's cards, Snape must just be sitting there thinking about Lily and hating James.


I totally agree!! It could also be that the detentions Snape gave Harry in HBP were because he was so totally angry that Harry found Snape's book, and dared to use one of the spells. Harry deserved what he got there IMO.

I've been re-reading loads of Snape quotes from books 1-6 and really, as much as I love Snape and am so happy he has been vindicated and redeemed in the eyes of those who hated him, I am finding it hard to believe that he cared for Harry as much as we, and DD, wish he did. I can stretch to believing that part of Snape, a part he repressed, saw Lily in Harry and wanted to reach out to him, but most of him saw an arrogant little James clone and hated Harry for what he represented.

I believe that the reason Snape was so horrible to Harry was, at first, because he saw James, but later I believe it was out of anger that Harry not only shared this close connnection with Lily (the eyes and mother-son connection) he never had and this was also the child he never had. So I do believe he eventually cared for Harry. And again like I said earlier, it might have been hard to show with all these other feelings.

I know this has probably already been discussed, but do you all think that Snape had a different patronus, and then changed his after Lily died? OR do you think he copied her patronus all his life?

But he was sorted after Lily, so he had a choice to go in the same house as her. I was interested in the sorting part: the second the hat touched Lily's head it chose Gryffindor, which means she did not give Snape even a chance, she did not consider even for one moment being with him in Slytherin. Perhaps at that moment she was already, if subconsciously, taken with James's gesture of raising the sword and saying Gryffindor is where dwell the brave of heart. Then, I stared at how long it took for the hat to put Snape in Slytherin, and we are just not told! But it seems like it wasn't just one second, perhaps. Maybe he did think about it for a little bit, but decided to go with Slytherin. If he sensed he had no chance with Lily, maybe he didn't want to lose his identity entirely by going to Gryffindor.

I'd have to dissagree. I believe that Harry was really the first person to realize how much of a choice you had. I think that Lily and Snape just were seeing where they were put. Harry had met Malfoy so he didn't want to be in Slytherin. Lily and Snape who weren't against any houses just waited to see where they were put.

I think you're right in the sense that it is logical to assume that Snape grew to care for Harry, but my problem is we have no real evidence for this in how Snape acts towards Harry and what he says about him- his overall actions are to protect him, yes, but up to book 6 he is still telling DD Harry is like his Father. If Snape did grow to care for Harry it must be during the events of DH when (unfortunately) we don't see a lot of Snape. I think in DH Snape must have grown respect for Harry at the very least. But I do hope he cared for him in the end. His "look...at..me" (Sob!) seems to indicate it but nothing he says before this does really.

Excerpt from the JKR interview on the Today Show

JKR : "The deaths were all very, very considered. I don't even kill fiction characters lighty."

MV: Was Snape always intended to be a hero?

JKR: *gasps*." Is he a hero? You see, I don't see him really as a hero".

MV: Really?

JKR: "But, yeah. He's spiteful . He's a bully. All these things are still true of Snape even at the end of this book. em, But was he brave? Yes immensely."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19959323/

I know this has probably already been discussed, but do you all think that Snape had a different patronus, and then changed his after Lily died? OR do you think he copied her patronus all his life?

I have a feeling that Snape had a different patronus at one time, but he changed it to Lily's I would think after she died. Patronuses aren't taught at Hogwarts so he might've not learned it till after school.

Nice Mr Darcy reference :love:
Speaking of Mr Darcy, and Jane Austen, and Snape, I was watching Sense and Sensibility with the fabulous Alan Rickman, and thought of how I can't wait to see him doing heartbroken Snape :)

Thanks!!

I know, can't wait to see how Alan Rickman does this in the movie, I'm crying already!!

When Harry is sitting there for hours re-writing Filch's cards, Snape must just be sitting there thinking about Lily and hating James. I like this! And remember that Snape enjoyed doing this to Harry just as Harry was becoming involved with Ginny (who is reminiscent of Lily).

Excerpt from the JKR interview on the Today Show

JKR : "The deaths were all very, very considered. I don't even kill fiction characters lighty."

MV: Was Snape always intended to be a hero?

JKR: *gasps*." Is he a hero? You see, I don't see him really as a hero".

MV: Really?

JKR: "But, yeah. He's spiteful . He's a bully. All these things are still true of Snape even at the end of this book. em, But was he brave? Yes immensely."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19959323/

This doesn't surprise me, from all the Snape quotes JKR has given it is obvious she sees Snape's good side, his redemption, but she also seems to have written him as a mean bully. This is why we have conflicted views of Snape. Personally I agree with her because for 6 books Snape is spiteful and bullying, it is not technically erased with what we find out in DH. BUT I still see him as a hero and always will :)

I like this! And remember that Snape enjoyed doing this to Harry just as Harry was becoming involved with Ginny (who is reminiscent of Lily).

Exactly, he must see the Ginny/Lily parallels. And be jealous. I also liked the continuity in the flashbacks Harry sees, when Snape is watching Fleur and Roger giggling after kissing, he is probably resenting them all for their romance.

We hear about other victims though. One by name in OotP -- Bertram Aubrey -- on the disciplinary cards. Harry feels numerous twists in his gut when reading other cards, but we don't learn any further details or names of those injured. There's also Lily's comment that James hexed anyone that annoyed him. I think that's plenty of evidence that the cruelty wasn't confined to Snape, though as Lupin says, Snape was a "special case," so I would think from that comment that jealousy over his friendship with Lily did play a role.


See, now this to me is conflict in Lily's character to me. Not only was James just a bully, but one of the people he bullied was her childhood friend and he seemed to show more verocity in his attacks on Snape. How could someone like Lily, so kind and gentle natured ever fall in love with James Potter!? No matter how good looking a guy is, if they open their mouths and a girl doesn't like what comes out, they can suddenly become ugly as a toad! (That's very simplified, but I hope you get the idea.) Is this making any sense?

I still don't get why "Snape's worst memory" was, in fact, his worst memory. Pre-DH, not knowing of his feelings for her, I assumed that, having lived through the first war, surely he'd seen something worse. Now, post-DH, I would think that his worst memory would be finding out that she had been killed. I was obviously wrong before and am still wrong. :shrug:

Why was that his worst memory?

If I remember correctly, Snape apaprently threatened to sleep outsied Gryffindor common room if Lily did not talk to him after he called her mudblood. He ended his relationship with Lily after he called her mudblood - which therefore killed him on the inside because he loved her, so making that his worst memory.

I don't think that his worst memory would've been finding out she was dead, because he never would've talked to her in real life anyway - they were on opposite sides, and Lily was married to his worst enemy.

Exactly, he must see the Ginny/Lily parallels. And be jealous. I also liked the continuity in the flashbacks Harry sees, when Snape is watching Fleur and Roger giggling after kissing, he is probably resenting them all for their romance.

You know that's very interesting. I was wondering if Harry's child, Lily, had gotten Ginny's red hair and Harry's eyes (a mini Lily) but she didn't get the eyes. But I see how Snape could be jealous. It's like a mini version of all the pain he felt.

Yeah I think that is a deliberate mirroring by JKR, she does that a lot throughout the books doesn't she, (e.g Harry being Teddy Lupin's godfather, Teddy becoming an orphan, and being born on Harry's birthday..) And Snape sees Harry, who he sees as James, walking around popular and happy with Ginny, pretty, redd-haired and popular. And clever.

See, now this to me is conflict in Lily's character to me. Not only was James just a bully, but one of the people he bullied was her childhood friend and he seemed to show more verocity in his attacks on Snape. How could someone like Lily, so kind and gentle natured ever fall in love with James Potter!? No matter how good looking a guy is, if they open their mouths and a girl doesn't like what comes out, they can suddenly become ugly as a toad! (That's very simplified, but I hope you get the idea.) Is this making any sense?

Because James changed. When people are growing up, they are still figuring themselves out. From what everyone around him says, he was not like that when he was older. People don't remember him for that. Honestly, I think James was just really insecure and jealous when he was younger. As he got older, he became less of a bully.

What is the asphodel and wormwood clue, I never heard that before.

I was wondering that too... Could someone explain? :)

I was wondering that too... Could someone explain? :)

I found it: asphodel is a flower plant that comes from the family of Lilies!

WELL DONE to anyone who got that from the start! I never would have guessed.

Snape at heart isn't a very nice person, it's who he is, but there are many reasons for his treament of Harry:

1. He hated James, Harry resembled James.
2. Harry's eyes reminded him of Lily, and possibly of his role in her death [guilt].
3 Harry constantly placed his life in danger, Snape went to great lengths to protect him and was probably none too pleased with Harry at times! [:D]

Because James changed. When people are growing up, they are still figuring themselves out. From what everyone around him says, he was not like that when he was older. People don't remember him for that. Honestly, I think James was just really insecure and jealous when he was younger. As he got older, he became less of a bully.


I guess I can accept that if they had space and time away from each other after graduation. Then she meets him again and he is nothing like she remembers him. Did they date at all in Hogwarts? That I guess is where I would have my doubts.

I guess I can accept that if they had space and time away from each other after graduation. Then she meets him again and he is nothing like she remembers him. Did they date at all in Hogwarts? That I guess is where I would have my doubts.

They dated seventh year.

Snape at heart isn't a very nice person, it's who he is, but there are many reasons for his treament of Harry:

1. He hated James, Harry resembled James.
2. Harry's eyes reminded him of Lily, and possibly of his role in her death [guilt].
3 Harry constantly placed his life in danger, Snape went to great lengths to protect him and was probably none too pleased with Harry at times! [:D]
But these are all immature reasons. At 35 he should be able to realize that Harry is not James, or Lily.

I guess I can accept that if they had space and time away from each other after graduation. Then she meets him again and he is nothing like she remembers him. Did they date at all in Hogwarts? That I guess is where I would have my doubts.
People change A LOT in their teen years. I dated a boy who used to be my enemy. Kind of like the whole Lily-James thing. He was a jerk and he hated me. People were shocked, but he changed for a bit, and it was nice.

I guess I can accept that if they had space and time away from each other after graduation. Then she meets him again and he is nothing like she remembers him. Did they date at all in Hogwarts? That I guess is where I would have my doubts.

You've also got to bear in mind that the only real views of James we've had are through Snapes eyes. Snape hated James so he's not going to remember him as a nice person. All the other people who remember James do it in a positive light. Just because Snape hated him doesn't mean he was a horrible person. We've just seen the worst of him through the eyes of one of his enemy's...

You've also got to bear in mind that the only real views of James we've had are through Snapes eyes. Snape hated James so he's not going to remember him as a nice person. All the other people who remember James do it in a positive light. Just because Snape hated him doesn't mean he was a horrible person. We've just seen the worst of him through the eyes of one of his enemy's...
I thought we could take memories as untainted, unbiased fact? But it is true that we were seeing James at what was possibly one of his worst moments.

I thought we could take memories as untainted, unbiased fact? But it is true that we were seeing James at what was possibly one of his worst moments.

Are you're memories untainted, unbiased facts? I know mine aren't...

Are you're memories untainted, unbiased facts? I know mine aren't...

But, we learned that these aren't memories from that person's point of veiw. They are what happened. If the person was there then we could take that memory of what happened. It's fact not opinion. That's why looking at a memory could give you truth unless they were tampered with but I really don't believe snape tampered with his memories. He wanted Harry to see them and he wanted Harry to see the truth.

Are you're memories untainted, unbiased facts? I know mine aren't...
No, but mine aren't pulled out of my brain. I really think that's canon.

People change A LOT in their teen years. I dated a boy who used to be my enemy. Kind of like the whole Lily-James thing. He was a jerk and he hated me. People were shocked, but he changed for a bit, and it was nice.

I totally agree but haven't we learned that bickering and being mean to someone is an immature way to say you like them? You do that to get their attention. That was what was going on with James and Lily. I don't think they ever disliked each other.

Well the thing is Snape was not just in love with Lily, he loved her. Being in love is different from loving someone. Say a mother loves her child; no matter what the mother will still love the child, that is to say it is unconditional. In Snape's case the condition is death and he never stopped loving her because of her death. Lily was probably in love with James... that's how most people feel about thier husbands at frist... they only grow to love each other after a long while. (I think)

Snape couldn't get over Lily because you can''t stop loving someone. Just like a mother who looses her child would not stop loving the child, Snape would never stop loving Lily. I think that is what Voldemort and even to a certain extent Dumbeldore didn't know... Voldemort just thought he desired her, meaning it was a physical thing, Dumbledore thought he was in love with her...meaning it was temporary and could change but only Harry understood that he loved her... meaning it was permanent and unchangeable.

Am I making sense to anyone.

:upset: We need to stop this. In the words of Albus: This is touching Severus.

I'll be all cried out by the end of August.

Excerpt from the JKR interview on the Today Show

JKR : "The deaths were all very, very considered. I don't even kill fiction characters lighty."

MV: Was Snape always intended to be a hero?

JKR: *gasps*." Is he a hero? You see, I don't see him really as a hero".

MV: Really?

JKR: "But, yeah. He's spiteful . He's a bully. All these things are still true of Snape even at the end of this book. em, But was he brave? Yes immensely."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19959323/

I love and I think we all enjoy that Jo takes such consideration with her characters.

Its interesting that she doesn't think of him as a hero, as many of us now want to think. Her perspective since she is creator is probably emmensely complex even though these characters are fictional, I was literally about the write people instead of characters! Ah but yes anyway he was still a bully and we want to see him in this new light, really I want to see him in a new light and there is a new light but he is still Severus Snape. A spiteful man, a lonely soul, a man with will only for love and vengence.

I think the point of Jo making Severus Snape to be so turn about-ish is to show the gray in the world. He is a mean man but he is also good in a way, we know he isn't very pleasant but he is loyal and brave and he is capable of love.

Wow, 46 pages! I love reading everyone's opinion but I haven't read them all yet. But here's my opinion:

I have thought of Snape-loved-Lily theory after rereading books 1-6 a few weeks ago in preparation for book 7. (I'm a late HP books fan - just read them last year.) But I never thought that they already knew each other before coming to Hogwarts. So that part was a big surprise for me.

I just thought that Snape had a crush on Lily, that's why he was also there near the lake where Lily was, and he bravely sat there even though James and company were nearby. At first, I thought that he only learned to love Lily secretly after that scene - when she defended him.

But when I read the chapter, The Prince's Tale, it's just squeezing my heart. Coz it was really very clear that Snape has loved Lily so much.

Regarding, SWM, i think, Lily has learned to forgive Snape for calling her Mudblood. All this time, we were hearing that Lily always see the good in a person, and if she hasn't forgiven Snape for his 'slip' then it would not be Lily at all.

I think that incident has just caused the crack in their friendship.

Just a friendly mod reminder that this thread is for discussion of Snape AND Lily.

If you'd like to discuss just Snape please do so here: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v2 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=109066) complete with a fun for the whole family poll!

i think Snape became a DE, because he was accepted there...unfortunately, none of the 'good' guys aka James, Sirius or even Lupin made an effort to befriend Snape...

poor Snape suffered all his life and Lily was the one person who made him so happy, who made him love....

the whole Snape/Lily story is so sad....still makes me cry.....but as HP said it best...Snape really was the bravest Slytherin and in my opinion, the true hero of this series......

I think Lily gave Snape the one thing that saved him from completely becoming Voldy's slave, love. And we can all thank Lily, she seems to help out Harry in every way and form, even in death.
I still wouldn't invite Snape to my birthday party though, he's such a damper on happiness, which we can also trace back to Lily.:relax:

I think Snape could have moved on, but things might have been harder for Harry when it came to the whole living thing.

See, now this to me is conflict in Lily's character to me. Not only was James just a bully, but one of the people he bullied was her childhood friend and he seemed to show more verocity in his attacks on Snape. How could someone like Lily, so kind and gentle natured ever fall in love with James Potter!? No matter how good looking a guy is, if they open their mouths and a girl doesn't like what comes out, they can suddenly become ugly as a toad! (That's very simplified, but I hope you get the idea.) Is this making any sense?
I don't think Lily was ever bothered about looks. She was friends with Sev who was never good looking and consistently expressed her dislike of James. That said I think there always was a chemistry between her and James that just wasn't there with Severus. If James had remained a "bullying toerag" then I do not think she would have had anything to do with him. But he changed. Sev also changed - but for the worse - he became more and more interested in the Dark Arts which Lily abhorred.
Given what we know of there friendship now, Lily's response to him in SWM shows how hurt and appalled she was. I also think Sev knew he'd blown it. I don't think he was ever really blood-prejudiced, I think he used the term to try to look less helpless and at the mercy of Potter than he was. BUt it doesn't actually matter that he didn't mean it. He turned on Lily to try to muster some dignity, - he put his pride before his friend and you can't undo that no matter how much you apologise.

Did any of you predict that Snape was in love with Lily?

I remember somewhere that a site predicted this (could be mugglenet, im not sure) and then after reading that in DH I was so surprised how anyone could have predicted it.

I certainly didnt see it coming.

I also think Sev knew he'd blown it. I don't think he was ever really blood-prejudiced, I think he used the term to try to look less helpless and at the mercy of Potter than he was. BUt it doesn't actually matter that he didn't mean it. He turned on Lily to try to muster some dignity, - he put his pride before his friend and you can't undo that no matter how much you apologise.
Well, I think he had probably heard and used the word frequently around Slytherins, else I don't think it would have slipped out.

Did any of you predict that Snape was in love with Lily?

I remember somewhere that a site predicted this (could be mugglenet, im not sure) and then after reading that in DH I was so surprised how anyone could have predicted it.

I certainly didnt see it coming.

*raises hand* I did.

I think that there were little clues scattered around. The biggest ones were Snape's silence on Lily (after insulting James so much, you'd think he'd say something about Lily too) and Slughorn's comparison of their potions skills.

Like I said I suspected in book one: WhenI heard that Harry and Snape's father didn't get along... Well it's almost always about a girl.

In POA that rant in shack...why was he so angry with Sirius... he didn't care about James, he hated Harry so it had to be about Lily.

Then in GOF- when he was blasting apart the rose bushes to catch people making out, I knew he had some issue with love

by OOTP it was all in your face and dangeling.

Then HBP--- I realised the only time we heard about Lily it was something to do with Snape.

And by DH when I saw the silver doe I said finally some Snape... I knew it was his right away. I always thought the reason he never showed his patronus was because it had something to do with Lily.


The thing about Snape and Lily's realtionship that I think indicates the level of purity is that it started when they were children. Children have very innocent views on love... and I think that was the most touching part of it. The fact that it was returned (at least form what we saw) is understadable. Lily was Snape's first and only friend. Lily had lots of friends most likely before and after Snape.

*raises hand* I did.

I think that there were little clues scattered around. The biggest ones were Snape's silence on Lily (after insulting James so much, you'd think he'd say something about Lily too) and Slughorn's comparison of their potions skills.

To me it was like a smack in the forehead. I actually never heard Snape mention Lily once it was always "your as arrogant as your father" this or "you strut like your father" that. I was under the impression there would be some deeper story to why Snape hated James so much. But I guess there was. James got Lily, Snape didn't.

It's sad, tragic, hopeless :upset: JK Rowling how could you do this to us?

To take HagathaChritie's comments on the plants a bit further: I haven't been able to find the etymologies you speak of, but asphodel, from the lily family, was associated with death and Persephone, and so it represents Lily, while wormwood, I think, stands for Snape (bitterness, worms/snakes, rotten wood even, and may mean "mood of a werewolf"?). So that when Snape asks Harry, first of all, what you get when you add powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood, it's like he's asking him: what would have happened if Lily and I had gotten together? You don't know? We'll never know, will we? It probably would not have been you! Although, considering it would have been the draught of the living death, and that the love that Snape had for Lily and that Lily had for Harry did create just that, Harry's special case of the living dead, it's very interesting.

Silver Ink Pot was queen of the Asphodel and Wormwood references I'm sure there was a thread on it somewhere...

Like I said I suspected in book one: WhenI heard that Harry and Snape's father didn't get along... Well it's almost always about a girl.

In POA that rant in shack...why was he so angry with Sirius... he didn't care about James, he hated Harry so it had to be about Lily.

Then in GOF- when he was blasting apart the rose bushes to catch people making out, I knew he had some issue with love

by OOTP it was all in your face and dangeling.

Then HBP--- I realised the only time we heard about Lily it was something to do with Snape.

And by DH when I saw the silver doe I said finally some Snape... I knew it was his right away. I always thought the reason he never showed his patronus was because it had something to do with Lily.


The thing about Snape and Lily's realtionship that I think indicates the level of purity is that it started when they were children. Children have very innocent views on love... and I think that was the most touching part of it. The fact that it was returned (at least form what we saw) is understadable. Lily was Snape's first and only friend. Lily had lots of friends most likely before and after Snape.
Snape had other friends. The Malfoys, other Death Eaters. That was Lily's whole problem with him. The problem was he chose to have different friends than Lily. Which I guess he couldn't help, as he had different interests.

Well I don't think those people were his real friends. You know you have aquaintances and you have friends... well Lily was his real friend. I think he hung out with those people because they were in the smae house as him. If they were his friends why didn't any of them come to his rescue when James was pulling down his pants.

Maybe they weren't around. Ha, fair point. But I think about Cissa in SE and I know Snape could make friends, he just didn't love anyone else. I think the other people were his friends, but Lily was his best friend.

I think Lily was more than his best friend, she was is first and only love. Only problem was that she couldn't love him back with all of his love of the dark arts, and his belief that muggle-borns are less than equal to those of pure blood. In order for Lily to return his love, she would have to accept the idea that she was less...important, for lack of a better work...than Snape, who was a half-blood.

I think the other people were his friends, but Lily was his best friend.

The other people he knew were death eaters.Death eaters(and slytherins) don't really seem to be 'friends',not in the true sense.
Do you think that Snape helped Lily with potions?I'm not saying she was intelligent but the way slughorn goes on about her skills,makes me think Snape gave her some tips.

The other people he knew were death eaters.Death eaters(and slytherins) don't really seem to be 'friends',not in the true sense.
Do you think that Snape helped Lily with potions?I'm not saying she was intelligent but the way slughorn goes on about her skills,makes me think Snape gave her some tips.
Can you elaborate on the Death Eaters not being true friends?

I think either Snape helped Lily, Lily helped Snape, or they worked together. There must be a reason Slughorn recognized Snape's work as Lily's.

Maybe they weren't around. Ha, fair point. But I think about Cissa in SE and I know Snape could make friends, he just didn't love anyone else. I think the other people were his friends, but Lily was his best friend.

I don't think she cared for Snape at all. She asked him to bet his life on being able to kill Dumbeldore. We all know if DUmbledore didn't ask Snape to kill him, Snape would have been smoked...

I don't think she cared for Snape at all. She asked him to bet his life on being able to kill Dumbeldore. We all know if DUmbledore didn't ask Snape to kill him, Snape would have been smoked...

Don't forget that Narcissa still thought that Snape was on her side so killing Dumbledore would have been an honour rather that something difficult. I think the fact that she could only trust Snape to make the Unbreakable Vow was because he was a 'friend' (well, as friendly as Death Eaters can be...)

Yeah, I think that there was some sort of love for her which he kept hidden from her. I think for him it was slightly more than just a friendship, and i think he was jealous of James for stealing her slightly. Even in the book, snape says to lily that james "fancies her" and she obviously feels the same later on. Perhaps he is jealous of the fact that she is popular, or that everyone else seems to think the idea of them being friends is absurd. Overall, you have to remember - the friendship must have looked a little strange - a slytherin being best friends with a gryffindor? we know that slytherin and gryffindor houses have been against each other practically sinc hogwarts opened. I think the pressure for the houses to hate each other had an effect on their relationship and I think snape was probably being fed lies by his slytherin friends - they no doubt were completely against gryffindor, therefore against lily. Snape was stuck - he liked his friends, but he never truly became a death eater because lily's influence had made him a good person. He was never evil like voldemort.

Actually i think this relationship between them is very like shakespeares Romeo and Juliet. Although they are not in love love, they still love each other as friends and their families (or houses gryffindor and slytherin) are against each other like the montagues and the capulets. Again, the relationship does not end happily - the outcome was lily died an early death - because of snape? not quite, but you can see how snape was distraught - she died because of hate.

I think this was cleverly done - it's the typical moral of love and hate in action here and there are many many things which could be said about it. Does anyone else agree/have ideas on the similarities of shakespeare's work with the book here?

I think Narcissa DID think of Snape as a friend. Her first priority at the moment was saving her son Draco and her friend Severus was the only way she could see to do it. Ironic isn't it that Snape was given the job of protecting both Draco and Harry. The son of Lily, the only woman he ever loved, and the son of Lucius Malfoy, who had befriended him on the day he came to Hogwarts and was sorted into Slytherin. The fact that Snape in no way betrayed Narcissa to Voldemort, when her actions, borne of love for Draco, certainly would have angered the Dark Lord considerably, shows Snape's friendship...or fraternal love, of which he was capable possibly only because he had learned it from Lily.

To take HagathaChritie's comments on the plants a bit further: I haven't been able to find the etymologies you speak of, but asphodel, from the lily family, was associated with death and Persephone, and so it represents Lily, while wormwood, I think, stands for Snape (bitterness, worms/snakes, rotten wood even, and may mean "mood of a werewolf"?). So that when Snape asks Harry, first of all, what you get when you add powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood, it's like he's asking him: what would have happened if Lily and I had gotten together? You don't know? We'll never know, will we? It probably would not have been you! Although, considering it would have been the draught of the living death, and that the love that Snape had for Lily and that Lily had for Harry did create just that, Harry's special case of the living dead, it's very interesting.

Brilliant!! Of course I researched flowers and flower meanings and things relating to names, but that is brilliant. Can anyone dig up that thread by silver ink pot that was mentioned?

What is the asphodel and wormwood clue, I never heard that before.

I love this one, it is probably my favorite, because to me it completely proves she had this story in mind for Snape before her first book was published, and all the clues we thougth we were seeing, were planted deliberately. In the first potions class of the series, the first time he talks to Harry, Snape asks:

"Potter!" said Snape suddenly. "What would I get if I added powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood?"


He goes on to ask Harry a couple other questions, and then gives the answers (after mocking Harry for not knowing, naturally).


"For your information, Potter, asphodel and wormwood make a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death. "


To understand the clue, it is necessary to know some traditions about plants. Asphodel is a flowering plant of the Lily family, in ancient times associated with the dead and often planted on tombs. Wormwood is an herb which has a very bitter taste (the proverb "As bitter as wormwood" goes back to ancient times).

And together they make the "Draught of Living Death".

That one sentence is is a complete summary of the life of Severus Snape. The bitterness (wormwood) he feels over his reponsibiliity for the death of Lily (asphodel), his beloved, has made his life a living death.

To take HagathaChritie's comments on the plants a bit further: I haven't been able to find the etymologies you speak of, but asphodel, from the lily family, was associated with death and Persephone, and so it represents Lily, while wormwood, I think, stands for Snape (bitterness, worms/snakes, rotten wood even, and may mean "mood of a werewolf"?). So that when Snape asks Harry, first of all, what you get when you add powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood, it's like he's asking him: what would have happened if Lily and I had gotten together? You don't know? We'll never know, will we? It probably would not have been you! Although, considering it would have been the draught of the living death, and that the love that Snape had for Lily and that Lily had for Harry did create just that, Harry's special case of the living dead, it's very interesting.

That is interesting....and its even neater that's the first thing Snape asked Harry in class. I wonder if that was just honestly a question or he was suggesting what your describing.


The other people he knew were death eaters.Death eaters(and slytherins) don't really seem to be 'friends',not in the true sense.
Do you think that Snape helped Lily with potions?I'm not saying she was intelligent but the way slughorn goes on about her skills,makes me think Snape gave her some tips.

I think Slytherins are capable of friendship but I think its very hard to form real relationships. Some of them seem to have this lack of trust trait and I get the feeling they have the feeling that betrayal is always around the corner. Maybe thats why they are after power? I mean ambition isn't bad but then everyone thinks Slytherin means you must be awful. I do wish we saw a good Slytherin.

I think Snape and Lily helped each other. I think Snape is honestly good at potion making otherwise he wouldn't be a potions teacher. I think Lily was highly intelligent too, I think she might of been like Hermione in her younger years? Does anyone think that? A "Mudblood", in a whole new world, and I think she probably loved learning as well. I'm just tossing ideas around. But she was better at Charms Flitwick says...

Slughorn was a fairly good Slytherin.
I see Lily and Severus at the same table in Potions...at least until Snape's worst moment...sharing their love of the subject and giving each other hints to make a potion work better.

I think Slytherins are capable of friendship but I think its very hard to form real relationships. Some of them seem to have this lack of trust trait and I get the feeling they have the feeling that betrayal is always around the corner. Maybe thats why they are after power? I mean ambition isn't bad but then everyone thinks Slytherin means you must be awful. I do wish we saw a good Slytherin.


They are not what I would call 'good', but I think the entire Malfoy family is a counterexample to your characterization of the house. They all love one another and care for one another. We see this in DH in Lucius's worry about Draco, in HBP in Draco's worries about both his parents, and especially in Narcissa, who in HBP defies Voldemort's orders to obtain Snape's help for her son, and in DH lies to Voldemort about Harry being dead, again for Draco.

I also think Snape did trust Lily. He just wasn't willing to give up his future DE friends and actions to keep her approval (until it was way too late).

Let me be the first member of the Admitting-I-Could-Be-Wrong Club to admit how VERY WRONG I was. I was open to the idea of Snape and Lily having been friends but I wasn't in love with the idea on love on his part or with a pre-Hogwarts friendship. But that said, JKR clearly was.

So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts? What do you think this friendship was based on? Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts? How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin? How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory? Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"? Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater? Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?

Jessica, dont feel too bad about this. A LOT of folks thought there were no feelings of love between Snape and Lily. I have to say, however, that I am happy (patting myself on the back), to report that I was one that did feel Snape loved Lily. I felt that this was one of the main reasons Snape hated Harry so. He lost his true love to his main rival. And he hated Harry because of this. *Interesting side note to all this* A lot of folks have lost loved ones to rivals (myself included). However, what makes Snape so sadistic is that he focused his anger and hatred on an innocent boy (Harry), whereas most of us dont.

I'm glad Jo went into a little detail about Lily and Snape's relationship because it gives some depth and understanding of Snape's character. Gives a bit of history, ya know? I think Lily was drawn to Snape at first because he was magic like she was. Lily was only getting insults from Petuntia and Snape was showing her a world and being a friend at the same time. But i'm not sure she ever had romantic feelings for Snape like he had for her.

i think she continued to associate with him because (a) he befriended her way back when. And (b) she may have felt like he could be redeemed if she kept trying to be his friend. She may have even felt sorry for him. Lily seemed to be a loving, forgiving sort of person and (in time) she probably would have forgiven Snape for that comment.

Other Slytherin and Gryffindores probably saw their friendship as something of an oddity. Sort of a (what do they see in each other?). Lol!

Do I think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses? No. At least, not romantically. And i'll tell you why.

Snape's 'relationship' to Lily reminds me of the film 'Lucas'. In that film, a scrawny boy falls for a beautiful girl who is new to the neighborhood and school. (A new world so to speak). He likes spending time with her and showing her around campus and town. This school and town is sort of like a new world to her. As he spends more and more time with her, he begins to fall in love with her. She, however, considers him just a friend. She actually falls for Charlie Sheen (a jock). It crushes Lucas and she is bewildered as to why.

Snape is Lucas. Lily is the beautiful girl and Charlie Sheen is James Potter the Jock (except that Charlie Sheen didnt torment Lucas while James tormented Snape).

My point is that Lucas was not attracted to evil things while Snape was. But it still didnt matter. Lucas still had those feelings, was tormented by Sheen's friends, the girl was still bewildered about his feelings and Lucas still lost the girl.

In affairs of the heart... things just happen the way they happen.

For everyone who is interested in the asphodel/wormwood discussion, this is an essay by Silver Ink Pot on the subject (written Pre-DH): http://www.thehpn.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3674.0

I had to admit, when I first read the theory on this, I thought it was kinda far fetched, with Snape's demeanor and constant harry bashing.

But I am pleased that it all came out the way it did, I wanted Snape to be a good guy. And it all tied in with DD saying that love is the ultimate magic. The love that Snape had for Harry's mother was what pushed him to very dangerous limits to protect her son, and in the end it was LV's downfall.

I had to admit, when I first read the theory on this, I thought it was kinda far fetched, with Snape's demeanor and constant harry bashing.

But I am pleased that it all came out the way it did, I wanted Snape to be a good guy. And it all tied in with DD saying that love is the ultimate magic. The love that Snape had for Harry's mother was what pushed him to very dangerous limits to protect her son, and in the end it was LV's downfall.

‘ear, ‘ear!

That’s a bit how I felt. I was never sure about the Snape loved Lily thing until this book, now I’m 100% in love with the idea.

‘ear, ‘ear!

That’s a bit how I felt. I was never sure about the Snape loved Lily thing until this book, now I’m 100% in love with the idea.

:lol::lol: 'ear 'ear, I love it. I giggled both times when I read that in the book, my hubby thought I was losing it.

Thanks ignisia for the link! I've been checking out posts on Asphodel, and found this interesting post, also, and this link, although it says nothing of asphodel: http://cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=3311319&highlight=asphodel#post3311319 (http://cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=3311319&highlight=asphodel#post3311319)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eVaNeScEnCe
on another note...hmm...I don't know if anyone could help me in this, but there exists on the web a very beautiful Snape/Lily fanfiction from Snape's point of view. The story basically consists of Snape inside a dream, in which he's having a session with a pyschologist. The pyschologist is basically examining his soul, but it's done in a very symbolic way. Severus's soul has been reduced into ashes, and the only "pure" thing that the therapist finds among the rubble is a white lily. Can't really recall all that vividly, but the story is positively beautiful. It has, what I feel, breathtaking imagery and very visceral emotions. I've been looking for it for ages and haven' found it. I want to say it's a livejournal piece, but I'm not completely sure. So has anybody heard/read of this story?

I have to take this moment to say I KNEW SNAPE LOVED LILLY! . Hmm hmm. In all seriousness, Despite me being a psyhic, I think the most suprising thing was the Patrunus. I always thought his was a bat, espcailly after he well, turned in a bat. I am not surprised, that all he care for was LIlly, and not Harry or James. He is not a good gooder for no reason.

I have to take this moment to say I KNEW SNAPE LOVED LILLY! . Hmm hmm. In all seriousness, Despite me being a psyhic, I think the most suprising thing was the Patrunus. I always thought his was a bat, espcailly after he well, turned in a bat. I am not surprised, that all he care for was LIlly, and not Harry or James. He is not a good gooder for no reason.

I don't think he was an Animagus, he just looked batlike as he flew (like Voldemort flew). And Snape is not a good gooder. Jo made this clear. He is still a bad person, he was just brave in this one respect.

on another note...hmm...I don't know if anyone could help me in this, but there exists on the web a very beautiful Snape/Lily fanfiction from Snape's point of view. The story basically consists of Snape inside a dream, in which he's having a session with a pyschologist. The pyschologist is basically examining his soul, but it's done in a very symbolic way. Severus's soul has been reduced into ashes, and the only "pure" thing that the therapist finds among the rubble is a white lily. Can't really recall all that vividly, but the story is positively beautiful. It has, what I feel, breathtaking imagery and very visceral emotions. I've been looking for it for ages and haven' found it. I want to say it's a livejournal piece, but I'm not completely sure. So has anybody heard/read of this story?
Oh I remember that :)- can't remember where it was though :(
It was a brilliant story - absolutely beautiful!

I just found it (posted by allegro in a thread)! http://community.livejournal.com/prof_snape/399135.html (http://community.livejournal.com/prof_snape/399135.html)

Well, I took a long break from HP prior to DH, and never visited the Lily and Snape thread... But the posts on this page, looking back, are really good: http://cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=3910246&highlight=asphodel#post3910246 (http://cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=3910246&highlight=asphodel#post3910246). Well, I wish I hadn't missed that whole discussion (a huge one, as I see now, browsing).

I don't think he was an Animagus, he just looked batlike as he flew (like Voldemort flew). And Snape is not a good gooder. Jo made this clear. He is still a bad person, he was just brave in this one respect.


I’d call him a horrible yet good man, not a bad person. After all, Jo never called him a bad man, she called him a horrible man, which somehow seems better. Anyway, though, I don’t believe he was an animagus, either. There would be no significance.

i think Snape became a DE, because he was accepted there...unfortunately, none of the 'good' guys aka James, Sirius or even Lupin made an effort to befriend Snape...

To be fair did Harry, Ron or Hermione ever make an effort to befriend Draco? I don't think Snape would have accepted them even if they had done. He disliked them as much as they disliked him. Snape had his friends in Slytherin and had no need for James and co. The only one he cared about was Lily and he didn't always treat her like you'd expect. Snapes idea of love was already twisted by what he'd seen at home. You couldn't ever really expect him to love anyone in a pure way. He didn't understand enough about love. In the end that was his downfall. He was so selfish in his love of Lily he didn't realise that she wouldn't ever thank him for saving her over her husband and son. He had such a one track mind and was so focused on her he never stopped to think about how she might feel.

Thanks ignisia for the link! I've been checking out posts on Asphodel, and found this interesting post, also, and this link, although it says nothing of asphodel: http://cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=3311319&highlight=asphodel#post3311319 (http://cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=3311319&highlight=asphodel#post3311319)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eVaNeScEnCe
on another note...hmm...I don't know if anyone could help me in this, but there exists on the web a very beautiful Snape/Lily fanfiction from Snape's point of view. The story basically consists of Snape inside a dream, in which he's having a session with a pyschologist. The pyschologist is basically examining his soul, but it's done in a very symbolic way. Severus's soul has been reduced into ashes, and the only "pure" thing that the therapist finds among the rubble is a white lily. Can't really recall all that vividly, but the story is positively beautiful. It has, what I feel, breathtaking imagery and very visceral emotions. I've been looking for it for ages and haven' found it. I want to say it's a livejournal piece, but I'm not completely sure. So has anybody heard/read of this story?

yes, yes, that was my post. :clap:
:sigh: And even after all these years, I STILL haven't been able to find it again. Looked all over fanfiction.net and nada. Now more than anything I would love to go over that story. :shrug:

I totally didnt predict the pre-Hogwarts relationship even though I thought that they might've been friends. I was glad though, I liked the way JKR developed the scenario. I loved the back story

I loved the story of Snape and Lily. Meeting as young children before they even got into Hogwarts, becoming friends, then having this sort of "open secret" friendship. As they got older, made certain friends, got into certain groups, made different choices it got harder for them to really be together in any way. I wonder if Snape had made different choices would Lily have married him instead?

I am appalled by all the Severus bashing happening on this thread.
When Jo gives interviews does anyone else notice how often she is facetious with her answers? Especially when the interviewer seems clueless. Severus not a hero? Really?

Severus was a spy, he was in the midst of the enemy all the time. We know that many in Slytherin house are the children of DE. We see Draco's eagle owl flying in and out of the school throughout the series, he is in constant contact with his parents. Think about it. What if Lucius had gotten a letter from Draco saying "Guess what dad, your friend Professor Snape took Harry Potter's side against me today." A deep undercover spy must stay in character all the time, if they don't they die. Dumbledore says Severus is an accomplished Occlumens and Severus warns Harry not to "wear his heart on his sleeve." Do you think that anything he said to Harry was not calculated to make him think, open his eyes, toughen him up for the battle he knew lay ahead? Really he did not hate Harry, if he disliked him, fine, I disliked him myself and thought often that he was arrogant, rude and completely brainless at times.

"It's our choices..." It was Lily's choice to abandon her long time friend when he needed her most. It was Severus choice not to condemn his powerful allies (I refuse to call them friends). It was Sirius choice to thumb his nose at his mother for preferring his younger brother. It was James choice to attack a person he saw as his rival with his gang (Dudley Dursley anyone?).

I think that we were shown that Lily had the power to turn people around. She turned James around, if not entirely, but it took a year or more (he never stopped hexing Severus whenever Lily wasn't around, Lupin says). I think she could have turned Severus around if he had not hesitated to condemn his housemates. I think that she gave up on him when she slammed the portrait in his face. I think he knew it too and it left him feeling like he had no choice. Isn't that always the way it is when we think we have no choice. We still have choices we just don't like them. "The choice between what is right and what is easy".

To be fair did Harry, Ron or Hermione ever make an effort to befriend Draco? I don't think Snape would have accepted them even if they had done. He disliked them as much as they disliked him. Snape had his friends in Slytherin and had no need for James and co. The only one he cared about was Lily and he didn't always treat her like you'd expect. Snapes idea of love was already twisted by what he'd seen at home. You couldn't ever really expect him to love anyone in a pure way. He didn't understand enough about love. In the end that was his downfall. He was so selfish in his love of Lily he didn't realize that she wouldn't ever thank him for saving her over her husband and son. He had such a one track mind and was so focused on her he never stopped to think about how she might feel.

Rigth on target I think; besides there is no way that Snape and James could have ever been friends, James wasn´t stupid, if Snape notice that James was interested in Lily I'm positive that James notice Snape was interest to. Why else would Snape be so big of a target for the marauders? Snape was a tread for James and Sirius was more than glad to have a slythering scape goat and the rest well sort of went along.
According to the book, James suddenly grow up and Lily agree on a date, I think that after Lily finish or diminish his friendship whit Snape the treat disappear and James just stop paying that most attention to him.

And even after all these years, I STILL haven't been able to find it again. Looked all over fanfiction.net and nada. Now more than anything I would love to go over that story. :shrug:
It's right here: http://community.livejournal.com/prof_snape/399135.html (http://community.livejournal.com/prof_snape/399135.html) I really liked the whole analysis of the substances in the beginning, and of Snape's essence.

I have to say-- I had suspected this twist since OotP but I was sincerely hoping none of the "____ loved Lily" theories would turn out to be true. I mean, honestly, were there NO other girls at Hogwarts back then or was Lily just THAT amazing? I was actually hoping Snape would be evil in end too.

That said, the way Jo presented it made me LOVE it. I'm glad she made them friends from childhood. It would've just been creepy if Snape had this weird unrequited crush on her, but it's a nice touch added that Lily was the only friend Snape had during his troubling childhood. You have to wonder; how could he NOT eventually fall in love with the only friend who understood him when they were just kids? On the other hand, had it JUST been a romantic thing, I would have found it hard to believe that after some 20 odd years, all his actions would still be motivated by her.

Lily, I believe, never felt anything romantic towards Snape. To her, they were best friends, that's it. In the end, her romantic feelings still belonged to James I'm sure she still loved Snape as a friend, even after their falling out.

As to whether he eventually felt affection for Harry-- I think not. He basically told Dumbledore, his concerns for Harry were driven by his love for Lily. He still despises the James in him, but still keeps his promise. It just makes him more noble in my opinion. I mean protecting a boy he doesn't even like, who reminds him of his enemy and Lily's death. Honestly, I wouldn't want it any other way. It would've too cheesey if Snape eventually became the father Harry never had or whatever.

I love the snape/lily relationship,I enjoyed the backstory and i was not at all excepting a pre-hogwarts friendship.They are officialy my favorite couple...are they really a couple though?:(

I love the snape/lily relationship,I enjoyed the backstory and i was not at all excepting a pre-hogwarts friendship.They are officialy my favorite couple...are they really a couple though?:(

Well, technically they weren’t a couple at all.

I love this one, it is probably my favorite, because to me it completely proves she had this story in mind for Snape before her first book was published, and all the clues we thougth we were seeing, were planted deliberately. In the first potions class of the series, the first time he talks to Harry, Snape asks:

"Potter!" said Snape suddenly. "What would I get if I added powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood?"


He goes on to ask Harry a couple other questions, and then gives the answers (after mocking Harry for not knowing, naturally).


"For your information, Potter, asphodel and wormwood make a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death. "


To understand the clue, it is necessary to know some traditions about plants. Asphodel is a flowering plant of the Lily family, in ancient times associated with the dead and often planted on tombs. Wormwood is an herb which has a very bitter taste (the proverb "As bitter as wormwood" goes back to ancient times).

And together they make the "Draught of Living Death".

That one sentence is is a complete summary of the life of Severus Snape. The bitterness (wormwood) he feels over his reponsibiliity for the death of Lily (asphodel), his beloved, has made his life a living death.

This is just...amazing I guess is the word. I have to say thank you to you guys that had the time or took the time to look all of this up. It is a beautiful metaphore of Snape, at least to me anyway! When I get the chance I will have to read Silver Ink Pot's essay. This who thing, so early on in the series is just brilliant!!:love:

I found it: asphodel is a flower plant that comes from the family of Lilies!

So wormwood is ... ? :huh:

Last edited by alwaysme : Today at 3:17 am. Reason: for being rudeI was not being rude. I meant it. Do you have a problem with me agreeing with you?

I knew that Snape had feelings for Lilly, You never hear him say a ward about her, and I think that is why Snape hated James so much, he too Lilly away from him. The chapter "The Princes Story" made me happy. It was in book five when aunt petunia says that she heard that nasty boy telling her that the Dementors guard the wizard prison azkaban. I thought that she was talking about Snape.
I love of she made us hate Snape through the whole series and then in the end he becomes the man that "I personally wanted him too be". I always trusted Severus Sanpe. I loved it in the end of the book when Harry told Al that snape was the bravest man that he knew.:tu:

Delighted to be here discussing this enchanting, puzzling, thought-provoking book.

Oooh, hell, this is sad - but here is my question:

When Snape lay dying, with Harry beside him, he gave out his memory.

He said "Look at me". Was that -- look at my memories, look at my life, look at me, look at who I am, look at all of my life, how I have been Dumbledore's man, at his side, all this time.

Or was it "Look at me" so that I can see Lily's eyes once more before I die?

I agree with ParanoidAndroid, I think that Snape wanted to see Lily's eyes once more. I just got that the second time I read the book! I remember JKR saying that Harry having Lily's eyes was a significant fact. I think that seeing Lily through Harry's eyes kept Snape's job of protecting Harry tolerable.

That one sentence is is a complete summary of the life of Severus Snape. The bitterness (wormwood) he feels over his reponsibiliity for the death of Lily (asphodel), his beloved, has made his life a living death.

This reminds me of two quotes from DH, actually:

[Harry] had forgotten...how [Snape's] greasy hair hung in curtains around his thin face, how his eyes had a dead, cold look.

And now Snape looked at Voldemort, and Snape's face was a like a death mask. It was marble white and so still that when he spoke, it was a shock to see that anything lived behind the blank eyes.

Perhaps these were the moments when JKR wanted to bring forward that "living death" idea?

Snape couldn't get over Lily because you can''t stop loving someone. Just like a mother who loses her child would not stop loving the child, Snape would never stop loving Lily. I think that is what Voldemort and even to a certain extent Dumbeldore didn't know... Voldemort just thought he desired her, meaning it was a physical thing, Dumbledore thought he was in love with her...meaning it was temporary and could change but only Harry understood that he loved her... meaning it was permanent and unchangeable.

Am I making sense to anyone.

Beautiful! That makes PERFECT sense. That's the best summation of Sev/Lily I've seen yet! :love:

I think that illustrates the way he felt about her very well. It was an obsessive and a possessive love, not true, unselfish love. Snape never wanted what was best for Lily - he only wanted to have her. This is clearly illustrated by the fact that he would willingly have let Harry, Lily's only child, be murdered as long as Lily was spared.

Obsessive I agree with, although I am convinced that happened after Lily's death, as his love became intrinsically tied into his guilt over his involvement in her murder. Long before she was his redemption, Lily was his penance.

But there's no evidence whatsoever that his love for her, the all-encompassing tenderness and devotion we see from childhood, was ever possessive. (And the one time he does try to go all macho on her, she backs him down pretty fast! :p) Voldemort assumed Snape wanted her spared so he could "have" her (and in the most literal sense of the word), but as Harry points out, that's because Voldemort has no clue what real love is. He's never loved anyone, let alone loved them as deeply as Severus loved Lily. And when he asked Voldemort not to kill her, Severus expressed it in the only terms LV could understand, the only terms he might even possibly consider: "I want her."

And Snape's not stupid - he knows Lily's not going to watch the murder of her husband and child and then fall into his arms. There's no indication he ever thought he had a chance with her after she ended their friendship - his memories of them together end there - nor that ever he pursued her once she was with James. He just wanted to save her...and he just kept on loving her in spite of the fact that she was no longer part of his life and never would be again.

ohhhhhhhhhhhh..how I was soooooooo wrong....I figured Snape would never talk to her cus she is a "mudblood" after all...and to be honest I always ignored the "Snape loved Lily" threads..so I never saw the theorys and everything, though I still most likely would've been "unbelieving" or it would've made me "undecided" :lol: cus thats how I was with Snape being Good or evil, I was completely unsure! :D


But I liked it.....nice twist to the whole story.....for those that didn't believe.....I also though made the connection that Petunia called Snape the"awful boy" or something like that.....I had just always asumed it was James...:whistle:

His love for Lily was unconditional. I think that really shook Lily- I think she knew how intense his love was. Some line, said something along the lines of "the intensity of his gaze made her.." It pains me so much to think of how much Severus' love actually hurt Lily. She seemed very upset when she was arguing with him outside Gryffindor common room! Lily said "I can't keep pretending!" etc, as if it pained her just as much as it pained him that they were apart. If only he had ditched stupid Mulciber and them!

We know it KILLED Snape, the way things ended between him and Lily. What I wonder though, is if we're underestimating how much it hurt Lily.

This reminds me of two quotes from DH, actually:





Perhaps these were the moments when JKR wanted to bring forward that "living death" idea?



I agree... I think that the death mask especially, illustrates the parrellel between this sentence and Snape's life. I think it is rather ingenious of JKR to add the whole path of Snape's life to the first book. Quite the clue...

Beautiful! That makes PERFECT sense. That's the best summation of Sev/Lily I've seen yet! :love:



Obsessive I agree with, although I am convinced that happened after Lily's death, as his love became intrinsically tied into his guilt over his involvement in her murder. Long before she was his redemption, Lily was his penance.

But there's no evidence whatsoever that his love for her, the all-encompassing tenderness and devotion we see from childhood, was ever possessive. (And the one time he does try to go all macho on her, she backs him down pretty fast! :p) Voldemort assumed Snape wanted her spared so he could "have" her (and in the most literal sense of the word), but as Harry points out, that's because Voldemort has no clue what real love is. He's never loved anyone, let alone loved them as deeply as Severus loved Lily. And when he asked Voldemort not to kill her, Severus expressed it in the only terms LV could understand, the only terms he might even possibly consider: "I want her."

And Snape's not stupid - he knows Lily's not going to watch the murder of her husband and child and then fall into his arms. There's no indication he ever thought he had a chance with her after she ended their friendship - his memories of them together end there - nor that ever he pursued her once she was with James. He just wanted to save her...and he just kept on loving her in spite of the fact that she was no longer part of his life and never would be again.

Agree agree agree. That’s an excellent post! :tu: :tu:

Snape's not stupid - he knows Lily's not going to watch the murder of her husband and child and then fall into his arms. There's no indication he ever thought he had a chance with her after she ended their friendship - his memories of them together end there - nor that ever he pursued her once she was with James. He just wanted to save her...and he just kept on loving her in spite of the fact that she was no longer part of his life and never would be again.

Exactly! This is what confuses me about those who claim Snape's request to spare Lily alone was completely selfish. I mean, yeah, it was partially selfish, but on the other hand, I doubt very much that Snape thought it likely he'd ever even see Lily again. He didn't want her to be spared so that he himself could enjoy her company again (in, er, whatever capacity). He just couldn't bear the thought of her death.

Exactly! This is what confuses me about those who claim Snape's request to spare Lily alone was completely selfish. I mean, yeah, it was partially selfish, but on the other hand, I doubt very much that Snape thought it likely he'd ever even see Lily again. He didn't want her to be spared so that he himself could enjoy her company again (in, er, whatever capacity). He just couldn't bear the thought of her death.

Exactly! And if it were so selfish; that is, if he did believe that she would go to him if she lived, then he would not have devoted his last sixteen years to Harry. He had no heart to win after that; his love was dead. He did it for her, purely for her. Not because he hoped she would come back to him, because he’s not completely delusional, either. He knew full well that Lily was dead, and never going to come back to him, and I don’t think that can be denied. It was clearly not selfish in my mind; it was all for her.

I felt really sorry for Snape after reading the memory when he, Lily, and Petunia were really young (the one where the sisters are on the swings and he's behind the bush). It was sad how he got shot down so coldly after mustering the courage to speak...

I always liked Snape because he seemed like this misunderstood hero. He was spying on Quirrell and helped Lupin brew the potion that would keep him stable. He was mean more than he was pleasant when he was at Hogwarts, so I thought that he wouldn't make a good spy if he was serving Voldemort. HBP greatly shocked me, but the Prince's Tale helped justify Snape. His love for Lily made him look like this antihero who just couldn't go mainstream due to some scarred past.

I think the whole Snape being selfish for Lily thing is a misunderstanding. You must remember that Snape was a death eater. I don't think he was very capable of showing his love. When he requested from Dumbledore protection for Lily, he did not fully understand his remorse and the way to do things "with the good guys". Who knows how many years he spent with a group of selfish, prejudiced murderers.

I felt really sorry for Snape after reading the memory when he, Lily, and Petunia were really young (the one where the sisters are on the swings and he's behind the bush). It was sad how he got shot down so coldly after mustering the courage to speak...

Well, that scene didn’t get me so much. After all, he did call her a witch. Of course he didn’t mean it like that, but as a few ten-year-olds, a witch is a pretty mean thing to be called. Really, I thought Lily was quite nice to him. I felt most sorry for him in the scene where he begged Dumbledore to help him protect Lily and on from there. I even felt sadder for him when Lily blew up at him for hurting “Tuney”. After all, he didn’t even have a wand yet so he clearly could not have done it on purpose. And anyway, he was obviously sharing a private moment with a girl he clearly had a little crush on even then, and her annoying sister interrupted, so it makes perfect sense that that’s one of the instances that would just make the powers burst from you. Just the same as how Harry blew up Marge, or locked Dudley in a snake’s cage.

Actually I find that intriguing! Snape's worst memory was not the day Lily died, but the day he finally ruined their friendship by calling her a Mudblood - the day he "lost" her. I think that illustrates the way he felt about her very well. It was an obsessive and a possessive love, not true, unselfish love.

"Worst" is a very subjective word, and memories are funny things which develop different significances as time passes. Obviously, from what we see in the Pensieve, the day Lily died was infinitely more painful for Snape to experience at the time (evidenced by his wretched state, "a hundred years of misery," etc.).

But as far as remembering goes, it may easily have been even more excruciating to look back on the day when he inadvertantly pushed Lily away forever.

This was a bit of a shock to me, but then I could understand Snape's motives. All he could see in Harry was James, and all Harry saw was a man who belittled him and insulted his father.

I think that if Snape hadn't called her a Mudblood, she might never have been with James. I think she kept holding out hope that Snape would walk away from his Death Eater friends and choose her, but after that, she felt he was too far gone, and settled for the toerag (as she described James on a few occasions).

Therefore, he could have viewed Harry as the child who could have been his, but more importantly he chose to see James in Harry until just before the end, when he wanted to see Lily's eyes one more time. I think that was really what fueled his hatred of Harry - that his worst enemy had fathered this child with the only woman he truly loved.

I was really glad to see that Dumbledore's reason for trusting Snape was ironclad. I didn't want to believe Dumbledore's trust had been misplaced, and it wasn't hard to see, through Snape's memories, that his feelings were deep and genuine.

And it once again goes back to the fact that the one thing Voldemort could not understand was love.

The title was "Snape's Worst Memory" in the fifth book, before we actually knew why it could possibly be the worst. I think the chapter titles are from Harry's POV just the way everything else is. And, of course, it works better as a title than, "One of Snape's Bad Memories."

Snape calling Lily a Mudblood certainly did represent the end of their friendship, but it's clear they'd been arguing a lot up until then. And what about the moment Lily climbed back into the portrait and it seems they spoke again? What about the day she started dating James? What about her death? I'm sure Snape has lots of bad memories and while that's up there, I just don't think the chapter title was really a clue. Not that it matters, really. :)

Or was it "Look at me" so that I can see Lily's eyes once more before I die?

I'm pretty sure that he wanted to look into Lily's eyes one more time, but I could be wrong.

When I read that part, I was overwhelmed with emotion.

I thought Snape was the most complex and real character in the whole series…
His motives for saving Lily are a really interesting discussion and I agree with what others have said about it being slightly selfish. He was begging Voldemort to spare her, and even though it was out of love, it was also selfish to think that she could go on without her child and without her husband. I think that maybe he didnt want her for himself when he asked Voldemort to spare her, but rather he just couldn't bare the guilt of her blood on his hands and the death of his best friend.
I always felt there was something between Snape and Lily, but to have them be best friends was really shocking to me… I always assumed Snape had a crush on her and maybe they dated, but the best friends thing really floored me. I love it! Rowling is so talented to have us all guessing and yet can still completely surprise us after all the theories and speculation!



Snape calling Lily a Mudblood certainly did represent the end of their friendship, but it's clear they'd been arguing a lot up until then. And what about the moment Lily climbed back into the portrait and it seems they spoke again? What about the day she started dating James? What about her death? I'm sure Snape has lots of bad memories and while that's up there, I just don't think the chapter title was really a clue. Not that it matters, really. :)

I am not sure I agree with Lucretia that calling Lily a Mudblood really was the end of their friendship…*I am curious what happened between that moment and the death of the Potters. If Snape and Lily continued to be friends during the war, or if their friendship really did end because of school bickering and cliques?

I wonder what Lily had done that made Snape tell her "I thought we were supposed to be friends? ... best friends?" That happened before he called her a Mudblood. Maybe he felt betrayed, too, before he betrayed her in turn (but in a most awful way that he regreted immediately).