Snape and Lily - the Relationship Revealed!

I am not sure I agree with Lucretia that calling Lily a Mudblood really was the end of their friendship…*I am curious what happened between that moment and the death of the Potters. If Snape and Lily continued to be friends during the war, or if their friendship really did end because of school bickering and cliques?

We don't see any memories of them together after that, and it's almost implied that's the last time they talked. Living nearby and having classes together, I'm sure they spoke at SOME point...but I don't think they were really friends after the incident.

And Snape's not stupid - he knows Lily's not going to watch the murder of her husband and child and then fall into his arms. There's no indication he ever thought he had a chance with her after she ended their friendship - his memories of them together end there - nor that ever he pursued her once she was with James. He just wanted to save her...and he just kept on loving her in spite of the fact that she was no longer part of his life and never would be again.

Yes! I was just going to say something very similar, but not as eloquently.

I thought the portrayal of thier friendship was very sweet and ultimately so sad. I had predicted that there might be some kind of unrequited love for Lily on Snape's part, but the childhood friends thing was so much more satisfying! I think Snape probably did come to fantasize about a romantic relationship with her but I doubt he would ever have persued it. He would have thought he didn't have a chance.

Gives me a lot to think about!

Delighted to be here discussing this enchanting, puzzling, thought-provoking book.

Oooh, hell, this is sad - but here is my question:

When Snape lay dying, with Harry beside him, he gave out his memory.

He said "Look at me". Was that -- look at my memories, look at my life, look at me, look at who I am, look at all of my life, how I have been Dumbledore's man, at his side, all this time.

Or was it "Look at me" so that I can see Lily's eyes once more before I die?

I think it was both. And I think you have expressed it beautifully. Thank you Ginger1. I couldn't find the words.

I was not very interested in the Snape, Lily relationship, although it was very touching:sigh::sigh::sigh::sigh: I was a more involved on finding about the the death.

I knew that Snape had feelings for Lilly, You never hear him say a ward about her, and I think that is why Snape hated James so much, he too Lilly away from him. The chapter "The Princes Story" made me happy. It was in book five when aunt petunia says that she heard that nasty boy telling her that the Dementors guard the wizard prison azkaban. I thought that she was talking about Snape.
I love of she made us hate Snape through the whole series and then in the end he becomes the man that "I personally wanted him too be". I always trusted Severus Sanpe. I loved it in the end of the book when Harry told Al that snape was the bravest man that he knew.:tu:


This is taken from the Today Show JKR Interview, from today

MV: "Was Snape always intended to be a hero?"
JKR: "Is he a hero? See, I don't see him really as a hero.
MV: "Really?"
JKR: "He is spitefull, he is a bully, all these things are still true of Snape, even into this book. But, was he brave? Yes, inmensely.
A Kid: "If Snape didn't love Lilly, would he still try to protect Harry?"
JKR: "No. He definitely wouldn't. He wouldn't be remotely interested in what happens to this boy".

That's the man that you personally wanted him to be?
In my eyes, Snape isn't much different than before. We just know he was really brave and I accept that his effort was really valuable for Harry's survival.

But really, I don't blame Lilly for going the other way. As she said, he choosed his way and she choosed hers.

He only felt remorse because of Lilly. It's a really weird kind of love. He is not a good person inside. He needs therapy. I feel just pity for him.

ginnyisgenius (first, I love your screen name!), I agree. Snape was mean, a bully, treated his students with contempt and gloried in their (especially Neville's) failures. BUT, when push came to shove, he did the right thing. Not necessarily for the right reasons, but he did them none the less. He was a very complex character and I liked him for the whole series. I can't explain why except I knew there had to be more to him than what we were seeing.

Well, technically and in literary terms, he IS a hero. He's just not THE hero. He's a classical anti-hero. "He's spiteful, he's a bully, but he's still brave." ;)

Personally, I've always found the anti-hero more complex, more morally fun to discuss.. And in the end when they "come clean", despite their reasons for being an anti-hero it's somewhat more "heroic" because of their nasty ways even when their motive may be as flimsy as obsessive love. They also tend to be more the three dimensional and believable characters.. Although I have a bit of disbelief over the whole "loving Lily all his life".. I think it's possible it could happen, but I don't buy it (in the confines of being 3d) at the same time.

But there are people that do that. It's not out of the realm of reality. Snape was not a lovable person and in Lily, he had a friend who looked past his ugly second hand clothes and snarky character. After she was gone, who else was he going to find? He's not a social being. He is solitary; even when he was in school I got the impression that his only "true" friend was Lily. I doubt he was close to Lucius, you know what I mean?

ginnyisgenius (first, I love your screen name!), I agree. Snape was mean, a bully, treated his students with contempt and gloried in their (especially Neville's) failures. BUT, when push came to shove, he did the right thing. Not necessarily for the right reasons, but he did them none the less. He was a very complex character and I liked him for the whole series. I can't explain why except I knew there had to be more to him than what we were seeing.

Thank you so very much.
Why are we so hung up on "well he didn't save Harry because of Harry...he did because he loved harry's mother." and my is "yeh, so...so what if Harry walks and breaths and the wizarding world survives intact because of Snape's love for a dead woman and not some affection for her son. " What would Lily think...would a mother really get fussy about motivations or would she just be glad her son's alive. And that the world she had to leave survives.
When push came to shove, Snape did the right thing. If he did for Lily...he did for Lily..how is that bad thing?

But there are people that do that. It's not out of the realm of reality. Snape was not a lovable person and in Lily, he had a friend who looked past his ugly second hand clothes and snarky character. After she was gone, who else was he going to find? He's not a social being. He is solitary; even when he was in school I got the impression that his only "true" friend was Lily. I doubt he was close to Lucius, you know what I mean?

That's what I said.

Although I have a bit of disbelief over the whole "loving Lily all his life".. I think it's possible it could happen, but I don't buy it (in the confines of being 3d) at the same time.

My point was, even though I was one of the ones that thought Snape would turn out to love Lily after all.. I thought it was a pretty lame reason when I read it all down on a piece of paper. I like it, but I didn't like it. I think it's something that's been done way too many times for an anti-hero. It's always unrequited love.. Couldn't it be something else, JUST for a change? :P

But there are people that do that. It's not out of the realm of reality. Snape was not a lovable person and in Lily, he had a friend who looked past his ugly second hand clothes and snarky character. After she was gone, who else was he going to find? He's not a social being. He is solitary; even when he was in school I got the impression that his only "true" friend was Lily. I doubt he was close to Lucius, you know what I mean?
I got some Narcissa vibes....

Careful mbd09, or I'll jinx you!
Nima, I see where you're coming from; unrequited love is often a plot point. But I think it's because so many people can relate to it. Most have had one at some point in their lives.
I loved seeing it on paper. Seeing how they grew as friends; she confronted him when she saw him heading down a wrong path and then stood her ground when the last straw hit the camels back. She was a strong, grounded woman who would have been Snapes friend for years if he hadn't made the wrong choice. I loved every heart-wrenching word in that chapter. made me cry.

When push came to shove, Snape did the right thing. If he did for Lily...he did for Lily..how is that bad thing?

Even though I am (one of) Snape's biggest fans, I can see why it's a bad thing.

Snape never overcame his emotional immaturity. He never got over Lily. He never became a better person. He never realised that his love was a sign that he could be a better person and begged Dumbledore to keep it hidden.

If Snape had lived, would he, if ever, came to this realisation?

In some ways, it's almost fitting he died... He had nothing to live for except be a bitter shell of a man afterwards otherwise.

In terms of the story, it's a good thing, because everyone lived .. But in terms of a character, it wasn't a very good thing.

I understand unrequited love, but I guess I'm too young to understand 25+ years of unrequited love...when 16 of them the object has been dead...

I understand unrequited love, but I guess I'm too young to understand 25+ years of unrequited love...when 16 of them the object has been dead...

Hell, even I understand it, I think everyone has been through it at some point.. Varying strengths and all!

But like you, yes, I do have a incy bit of niggling inside me when it comes down to the time..

nima, I loved your line about emotional immaturity. That nailed it perfectly. It was one of Sirius's major issues. Both of them stunted, whether by Azkaban or choice.
However, I would disagree on the issue of becoming a better person; I think DD knew he became a better person. Remember, he was a double agent and had a persona to keep up. He did see James in Harry, like DD said, but he still did what was asked of him to help Harry. That shows a strenth of character in my eyes.

What would Lily think...would a mother really get fussy about motivations or would she just be glad her son's alive. And that the world she had to leave survives.
When push came to shove, Snape did the right thing. If he did for Lily...he did for Lily..how is that bad thing?
That's exactly how I feel. :agree:

JKR is using her own very narrow view of a hero. To her, Harry is the hero and everyone else is toast or snake-bait, because his survival is the whole story.

But Snape at least had a depth of emotion, which we see in the Pensieve, when he is crying over Lily's letter. Someone who has seen the horrors he has seen and can still feel that sort of love is not a bad guy.

It is a strange thing. I knew that Snape would turn out to be good, yet I did not accept the theory that he had loved Lily. I knew it fitted but I still did not accept it, but when I read it, it was so beautiful and sad that I knew that it was the only way that it could have happened. I realised with a jolt that Snape was the boy Petunia had referred to..."I heard...that awful boy...telling her about them...years ago." I had assumed "that awful boy" referred to James.

Because Snape loved Lily so much, his hopes for getting her bordered on the impossible. If Lily had survived Voldemort's attack (disregarding Harry's survival at the moment), she wouldn't have returned Snape's feelings for her because she would be deeply grieved at James' death and would hate Voldemort and his followers, including Snape. I think he would just have clung to the fact that she was still alive, that she hated him would not matter, as long as she drew breath he did not care what else happened...

The interesting part...everything, everything that helps Harry succeed is love. He survives Voldemort's first attack because of his mother's love and sacrifice. One big ingredient in his success in defeating Voldemort is Snape's love for Lily, because frankly, if Snape had not loved Lily, Dumbledore could not have done all that he did for Harry. And (sorry to digress for a line) if Narcissa had not loved her son, Harry would not have made it back out of the Forbidden Forest.

But the fact remains that he did it all for her, not for Harry. This is shown when Dumbledore touches upon this possibility and he shows him his patronus.

I did not realise until going through this thread why Snape's worst memory was his worst, exactly. I did not give thought to that, so much happened in the book. You guys are right, it was because he called her Mudblood and it marked the parting of their ways...and now I realise why Snape was so very angry when he discovered Harry looking at that memory. It was not because Harry had seen him being humiliated. It was because Snape did not want Harry to know that he had loved Lily, he himself said to Dumbledore that he could not bear that.

It was after finishing the book and lying in bed waiting for sleep and mulling over the book did I realise what Snape's "look at me" meant. That was one of the most touching moments in the whole series and it brought tears to my eyes. DH is clearly the deepest book of all the books.

JKR is using her own very narrow view of a hero. To her, Harry is the hero and everyone else is toast or snake-bait, because his survival is the whole story.


Wonderful point. Everyone may hold JKR in high esteem, but it IS a narrow view of a hero.

Even by pure literary definition, Snape is an anti-hero.. Which IS a type of hero.

I think she's possibly trying to play down his sacrifice because of the attention it's received?

But Snape at least had a depth of emotion, which we see in the Pensieve, when he is crying over Lily's letter. Someone who has seen the horrors he has seen and can still feel that sort of love is not a bad guy.

Nope :no:. He was most certainly not! No one is denying that Snape is an unpleasant man, but I don't think anyone can play down that what he did was a very heroic thing to do, on the back of who he is, anyway.

Wow, I am out of my element here! You all are posting such great points that all I can say is: dittos!
Snape was and is a hero, anti or not. To have loved that deeply and that long, to have sacrificed so much for her son, who he had little regard for except that he was HER son, speaks volumes about this complicated man.
By the way, Hi SilverInkPot!

I am appalled by all the Severus bashing happening on this thread.
When Jo gives interviews does anyone else notice how often she is facetious with her answers? Especially when the interviewer seems clueless. Severus not a hero? Really?

Severus was a spy, he was in the midst of the enemy all the time. We know that many in Slytherin house are the children of DE. We see Draco's eagle owl flying in and out of the school throughout the series, he is in constant contact with his parents. Think about it. What if Lucius had gotten a letter from Draco saying "Guess what dad, your friend Professor Snape took Harry Potter's side against me today." A deep undercover spy must stay in character all the time, if they don't they die. Dumbledore says Severus is an accomplished Occlumens and Severus warns Harry not to "wear his heart on his sleeve." Do you think that anything he said to Harry was not calculated to make him think, open his eyes, toughen him up for the battle he knew lay ahead? Really he did not hate Harry, if he disliked him, fine, I disliked him myself and thought often that he was arrogant, rude and completely brainless at times.

"It's our choices..." It was Lily's choice to abandon her long time friend when he needed her most. It was Severus choice not to condemn his powerful allies (I refuse to call them friends). It was Sirius choice to thumb his nose at his mother for preferring his younger brother. It was James choice to attack a person he saw as his rival with his gang (Dudley Dursley anyone?).

I think that we were shown that Lily had the power to turn people around. She turned James around, if not entirely, but it took a year or more (he never stopped hexing Severus whenever Lily wasn't around, Lupin says). I think she could have turned Severus around if he had not hesitated to condemn his housemates. I think that she gave up on him when she slammed the portrait in his face. I think he knew it too and it left him feeling like he had no choice. Isn't that always the way it is when we think we have no choice. We still have choices we just don't like them. "The choice between what is right and what is easy".

I fully agree. As I said before, being harsh in a class so dangerous as potions, is also a way to protect your student. plus tormenting a "james" was a good way to ease the pain.

This thread is for discussion of "Snape and Lily - the Relationship Revealed!"

A thread already exists to discuss Snape's character, it can be found here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=4661084#post4661084).

Back on topic!

I've brought this up before, but I think since this thread has quietened down a little, it might be interesting to bring it up now.

Do you think there is a reason why Lily started dating James AFTER the mudblood comment and after the subsequent break up of her and Severus's friendship?

Do you think she was trying not to hurt Severus and playing along by calling James a toerag?

Do you think she harboured a romantic feeling inside that Severus might change into a better person and thus start a relationship with him? That "mudblood" was the comment that finally made her realise he wasn't?

Do you think that Lily dated James out of revenge? (She didn't, but I'm asking that question to hear opinions ;) )

Personally, I don't know. I just think Lily was possibly just trying to be an angel to everyone. I've theorised that it's possible that she may have had a feeling for him, having known him all her life.. But seeing a change in him after he was sorted into Slytherin and finally realising there was no way back or no way he was going to change decided to move on from "trying to save him" and call it quits.

At any rate, I find it interesting that she only went out with James AFTER the mudblood comment.. I can't see James changing very much.

I don't think Lily ever really liked Sev. Like that I mean. Heh, I feel like I'm in middle school all over again (she didn't like like him...). I think she dated James because he began to change.

Jo said she was attracted to james even BEFORE the mudblood comment.
I think she considered snape only as her friend.

I fully agree. As I said before, being harsh in a class so dangerous as potions, is also a way to protect your student. plus tormenting a "james" was a good way to ease the pain.

I am sorry I dont get you at all. tormenting a 'james'?? I think every class of magic except history of magic is risky to some extent. not only potions.
threatening to poison ones pet will not improve once performance. it will increase accidents rather than protect students.
And I stil have no idea what u mean by tormenting a 'james'. I just hope u dont mean snape tormenting harry because he looked liek james and its ok because it eased his pain? whose pain? snape's? torment a 11 yr old to ease his own pain?
I am sorry of i have misunderstood u.

plus Nima, we have canon to support that James DID change. However, I don't think Lily ever had romantic feelings for Snape; she saw him as a best friend. SNape was so good at concealing his feelings that I don't think she ever had an inkling that he was in love with her.

Oh, I never knew JKR said that she was attracted to James before this. Nice catch :P.

plus Nima, we have canon to support that James DID change. However, I don't think Lily ever had romantic feelings for Snape; she saw him as a best friend. SNape was so good at concealing his feelings that I don't think she ever had an inkling that he was in love with her.

Yeah, I guess we do have canon to support that James did change. I'm just wondering why it was never drilled down as much as it should have been though - But, then again, I might be blind.. Very, very blind (Or I've simply forgotten - which is more likely).

I'm unsure.. I think that Lily must have been blind if she didn't realise what Snape felt.. But then they were kids.. And kids are innocent, unlike us grown ups :P. As for Snape, I don't know.. I don't think he was perfect at concealing his feelings then.. He did grow to be though, whether this be a product of his bitterness after Lily or not, I cannot say.

Can we please drop the word torment in regard to how Snape treated Harry and how the Marauders behaved towards Snape? The term blows things out of proportion and creates animosity. Thanks.

I suggest to (re)read Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=4370151&postcount=1)

Can we please drop the word torment in regard to how Snape treated Harry The term blows things out of proportion and creates animosity. Thanks.



torment in regard to snape's treatment of hary is blowing out of proportion???????????? I shudder thinking WHAT would have been torment then...
thanks.. i am off this list anyway..

By the way, Hi SilverInkPot!
Hiya! :)

It was after finishing the book and lying in bed waiting for sleep and mulling over the book did I realise what Snape's "look at me" meant. That was one of the most touching moments in the whole series and it brought tears to my eyes. DH is clearly the deepest book of all the books.
It's sad because he wanted to see Harry's eyes again, but also, he is saying "Look at what I've done, and look at why I did it."

You know, maybe this is just me doing some reflecting since my pet idea of Snape and Lily becoming friends in NEWTs potions rather than pre-SWM has been debunked by canon, I wonder how Snape and Lily reacted if at all in Slughorn's class. Oh, and I wonder if (assuming Snape wasn't in the Slug Club) Lily invited Snape to Slughorn's silly dress parties.

And...hm, I think it would be interesting if Lily really did have an inkling that Snape fancied her...

You know, maybe this is just me doing some reflecting since my pet idea of Snape and Lily becoming friends in NEWTs potions rather than pre-SWM has been debunked by canon, I wonder how Snape and Lily reacted if at all in Slughorn's class. Oh, and I wonder if (assuming Snape wasn't in the Slug Club) Lily invited Snape to Slughorn's silly dress parties.

And...hm, I think it would be interesting if Lily really did have an inkling that Snape fancied her...

I've brought it up before but I find it strange that Slughorn brought up in HBP something like:

"When you get to be as old as I am, you've seen obsessive love and the unexpected nature of it."

During when he teaches the class about Amortentia.

Is Slughorn foreshadowing the events of DH here? Or is he referring to the fact that he KNEW that Snape had feelings for Lily?

Am I daft in believing that if the Marauders had been chiding Snape & Lily on the train for being together that the teacher's should have noticed as well?

MV: "Was Snape always intended to be a hero?"
JKR: "Is he a hero? See, I don't see him really as a hero.
MV: "Really?"
JKR: "He is spitefull, he is a bully, all these things are still true of Snape, even into this book. But, was he brave? Yes, inmensely.
A Kid: "If Snape didn't love Lilly, would he still try to protect Harry?"
JKR: "No. He definitely wouldn't. He wouldn't be remotely interested in what happens to this boy".

I am disappointed with this JKR quote. I'm already annoyed about the way Snape died and how little he appeared in DH, it is one of the things I disliked most about the book, and now she is saying Snape is essentially a brave bully! Obviously I respect JKR and they are her characters, but really it doesn't make much sense to me that Snape only protected Harry because he loved Lily. Snape protects a lot of people in his role as spy, he says to DD the only people he has seen die lately are those he cannot save. These aren't the words of someone who doesn't care about right and wrong but is only protecting someone because of a mistake they made 17 years ago. I'm not saying Snape is an angel of course he is mean and nasty, but I think it's clear he is a hero, I don't understand why she said that.

MV: "Was Snape always intended to be a hero?"
JKR: "Is he a hero? See, I don't see him really as a hero.
MV: "Really?"
JKR: "He is spitefull, he is a bully, all these things are still true of Snape, even into this book. But, was he brave? Yes, inmensely.
A Kid: "If Snape didn't love Lilly, would he still try to protect Harry?"
JKR: "No. He definitely wouldn't. He wouldn't be remotely interested in what happens to this boy".

I am disappointed with this JKR quote. I'm already annoyed about the way Snape died and how little he appeared in DH, it is one of the things I disliked most about the book, and now she is saying Snape is essentially a brave bully! Obviously I respect JKR and they are her characters, but really it doesn't make much sense to me that Snape only protected Harry because he loved Lily. Snape protects a lot of people in his role as spy, he says to DD the only people he has seen die lately are those he cannot save. These aren't the words of someone who doesn't care about right and wrong but is only protecting someone because of a mistake they made 17 years ago. I'm not saying Snape is an angel of course he is mean and nasty, but I think it's clear he is a hero, I don't understand why she said that.

Hiya, Buffybot.

There's theories/talk for this in the Severus Snape: Character Analysis v2 thread.

Here's the link:

http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=109066&page=13

Hiya, Buffybot.

There's theories/talk for this in the Severus Snape: Character Analysis v2 thread.

Here's the link:

http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=109066&page=13

Hello! :)

Thanks, I'm heading over there now.

Moving back to Snape and Lily specifically then...

Last night I re-read the Occlumency scenes in OoTP and it's interesting to look at them knowing what we know now (and could only guess at before!) In particular I noticed how, shortly after telling Harry the importance of eye contact in Legilimency, he asks Harry to close his eyes before he says 'Legilimens'. Just another sign of how looking into Harry's eyes affects Snape I think. I still admire the people (and I remember Silver Ink Pot in particular arguing the point) who picked up all these clues along the way.

To whoever brought up the suggestion that perhaps Lily could have loved Snape, my friend and I were talking about Lily and Snape and she brought up a JKR quote I forgot about, where JKR said that Snape had been loved and Voldemort hadn't. Now, I'm assuming she means love and not just the affection you feel for your friends. I'd like to think that Lily did love Snape, but then he changed too much into a Slytherin and it all fell apart.

I think Lily must have had some idea of how Snape felt about her, I mean a girl always knows! :blush:
Maybe she didn't realise how serious his feelings were though. They were so young, I doubt that she realised that she was the love of his life.

For 1 year he couldn't admit in front of the order that he was still good. He had NOONE!!!!!!!!


Maybe this is why he went to steal Lily's letter and photo, as he knew he will have no company over the next year? Man that is sad...

To whoever brought up the suggestion that perhaps Lily could have loved Snape, my friend and I were talking about Lily and Snape and she brought up a JKR quote I forgot about, where JKR said that Snape had been loved and Voldemort hadn't. Now, I'm assuming she means love and not just the affection you feel for your friends. I'd like to think that Lily did love Snape, but then he changed too much into a Slytherin and it all fell apart.

If I remember correctly (though i could be as wrong as Humphrey :lol:) Jk said that Snape had known love and Voldemort hadn't.
Snape obviously has known love..
But there is a definite difference between knowing what love is and being loved by someone else.

Can you elaborate on the Death Eaters not being true friends?

All I meant was I don't thinkthat if your a death eater and your in a tight spot(not just being attacked) that you can depend on another death eater that much.Thats all.

I think Slytherins are capable of friendship but I think its very hard to form real relationships. Some of them seem to have this lack of trust trait and I get the feeling they have the feeling that betrayal is always around the corner.

I think that most slytherins do look after there own need but your right I think even if they are trusting they learn very quickly that it may not be wise.

In some ways, it's almost fitting he died... He had nothing to live for except be a bitter shell of a man afterwards otherwise.

I thought that too,that he had nothing to live for,I feel slightly bad about it,even though I still believe it was better for him to die.


What about Lily being friends with Snape?She was so for a long time,he must have had good traits,otherwise why would she be friends with him,unless it was pity,but I can't see Lily doing that.

At any rate, I find it interesting that she only went out with James AFTER the mudblood comment.. I can't see James changing very much.

But we know that James changed. Everyone in the Order respects and likes James. He couldn't have earned that if he had continued being immature and slightly stupid.
Dumbledore tells us that James would have forgiven Peter for betraying them. It takes a man with a lot of strenght and a forgiving spirit to forgive the man who indirectly killed your whole family. I can't see the smae person haxing people for the fun of it.
Lily doesn't come across as the person who would enter a relationship to get back at someone. Thats a rather low thing to do and Lily seems to be too idealistic to do something like that.
Jk said that Lily had been attracted to James even before the "Mudblood" incident.
We know that James grew up to be an admirable person. It was only natural that they started going out once James grew up a little bit.

This is what I managed to dig up in relevance to that quote in question:

MA: Oh, here’s one [from our forums] that I’ve really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?

JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has. Okay, one more each!

Now, I think either A) She meant to say that Snape has loved, which makes him more culpable because he understands the nature of love.. or more likely B) The nature of the love between Lily & Snape which was platonic.

Only thing I can think of :).

But we know that James changed. Everyone in the Order respects and likes James. He couldn't have earned that if he had continued being immature and slightly stupid.
Dumbledore tells us that James would have forgiven Peter for betraying them. It takes a man with a lot of strenght and a forgiving spirit to forgive the man who indirectly killed your whole family. I can't see the smae person haxing people for the fun of it.
Lily doesn't come across as the person who would enter a relationship to get back at someone. Thats a rather low thing to do and Lily seems to be too idealistic to do something like that.
Jk said that Lily had been attracted to James even before the "Mudblood" incident.
We know that James grew up to be an admirable person. It was only natural that they started going out once James grew up a little bit.

True. I did concede these points earlier on :).

I liked. I was totally wrong about. I thought it was a possibility, it explained way Lily was given a choice, and why Dumbledore trusted Snape. But I didn’t think it was a likely possibility. My own version of Snape to that point didn’t allow for it.

I really thought Snape had his own interests at heart. And so was playing both Dumbledore and Voldemort, in an attempt to get both powerful rivals out to the way so that he could start his own rise to the top.

I was wrong, wrong, wrong. But I enjoyed being wrong. I enjoyed the story; it was very Wuthering Heights like. And really who doesn’t love a tragic love story at least a little. Now looking back at Snape’s treatment of Harry it is very similar to Heathcliffe’s treatment of Cathy. I should have known! Still it was kind of nice being surprised.

When you think about what might have been, and then what was. What if Snape had been sorted in to Gryfinndor? What if Lily had been Slytherin? What if Snape hadn’t of called her a mudblood? What if she had returned his feelings. How different would the world have been?

Jo said she was attracted to james even BEFORE the mudblood comment.
I think she considered snape only as her friend.



I am sorry I dont get you at all. tormenting a 'james'?? I think every class of magic except history of magic is risky to some extent. not only potions.
threatening to poison ones pet will not improve once performance. it will increase accidents rather than protect students.
And I stil have no idea what u mean by tormenting a 'james'. I just hope u dont mean snape tormenting harry because he looked liek james and its ok because it eased his pain? whose pain? snape's? torment a 11 yr old to ease his own pain?
I am sorry of i have misunderstood u.


I always get the idea that with potions (were you get some effects that are more powerful than spells) you must use your complete attention, and Harry
many times lacked that. You could say that being harsh with Harry was another way to protect him.
it's ugly but sometimes I've found that teachers that were mean made you learn ( or remember) more things.
Snape was obviously carried away with his feelings, and to a point loved to punish James through Harry.

To whoever brought up the suggestion that perhaps Lily could have loved Snape, my friend and I were talking about Lily and Snape and she brought up a JKR quote I forgot about, where JKR said that Snape had been loved and Voldemort hadn't. Now, I'm assuming she means love and not just the affection you feel for your friends. I'd like to think that Lily did love Snape, but then he changed too much into a Slytherin and it all fell apart.

I have no opinion about whether or not Lily ever loved Severus 'in that way'. However, I am fairly certain that Rowling would use the word love to describe the feeling between true bests friends. Hermione and Harry love each other. So I don't think her statement sats anything about the nature of Lily's feelings, other than that they were strong enough to be called 'love'.

With the chapter 'snape's worst memory' in context i was rather annoyed at Lily's reaction to Snape calling her a mudblood. When her sister calls her a freak she is clearly hurt by it immediately (her eyes "fill(ing) with tears"). In contrast, when her supposed best friend calls her a mudblood she is more annoyed by it than anything else. Admittingly she does hurry away but her immediate reaction is described as 'calm' even 'cool'. Even before Lily is called a mudblood, her "furious expression (directed at james) ... twitch(es) for an instant as though she was going to smile" at snape's humiliation.

What i'm getting at is that perhaps it wasn't only Snape's love that was unrequited. To me it seems evident that Snape placed greater value on their friendship than did Lily. To me it makes Snape's character all the more tragic - a man who sacrifices everything for less than he deserves.

To those of you out there who still consider Snape a stalker, I shake my fists angrily at you!

I have no opinion about whether or not Lily ever loved Severus 'in that way'. However, I am fairly certain that Rowling would use the word love to describe the feeling between true bests friends. Hermione and Harry love each other. So I don't think her statement sats anything about the nature of Lily's feelings, other than that they were strong enough to be called 'love'.

There has been some dispute about the quote, about wether it said that Snape loved or had been loved. However, I'm wondering wether Lily's feelings for Snape were of just friendship, or the kind of love found among really good friends?

There has been some dispute about the quote, about wether it said that Snape loved or had been loved. However, I'm wondering wether Lily's feelings for Snape were of just friendship, or the kind of love found among really good friends?

I'm not understanding you here... I'm of the opinion that they're the same thing?

Unless do you mean: Snape was a regular friend or was Snape her best friend...

If so, then definitely the latter, I would say.. Until she eventually gave up on him and realised he was never gonna change his ways. I think that she held onto him and never gave up on changing him for so long speaks volumes of what type of friend he was to her.

I think it's possible Lily loved him, but her love faded as he became more and more entangled with the Junior Death Eaters, while she was more and more exposed to James, being in the same house.

Not everyone loves always and forever in spite of everything.

There has been some dispute about the quote, about wether it said that Snape loved or had been loved. However, I'm wondering wether Lily's feelings for Snape were of just friendship, or the kind of love found among really good friends?

I think both had different feelings for each other.
I'd say Lily's emotions are that of care and warmth as what is expected between "best friends". Lily is concerned about Snape as a friend, telling him she doesn't like the people (people associating with the DA) he's around.

Meanwhile, it looks like Severus also thought of Lily as a friend but wanted more than that. How he looks at her "greedily" and only wants to save her from Voldemort shows how much he desires her as more than a friend.

I think Lily loved Severus as the brother she never had who is a bit like a brother who might have joined some gang (which I suppose he did) but still loved hinm in a way despite his faults. After all she seems to have known him since they were both young children and he made her feel that she wan't a freak by explaining the things that were happening to her were becaukse she was like him in a way. I bet they also collaborated in potions quite a bit too and that some the things like the way you stir your cauldron to get the best results were a result of some of her input. At least Sererus died remorseful of his actions and most likely still loving Lily. Green-eyed Albus Severus - I like it.....

I found it interesting that in OoTP, when Petunia said, referring to the dementors "I heard her talking about them with that boy", we all assumed she meant James. But she was actually talking about Snape!

I'm just interested in what Lily felt towards Snape after they stopped being friends, after the mudblood comment and especially after she started dating/married James. Did Lily ever hate Snape, or did she just give up on him and try to forget, or did she remember and maybe regret that she hadn't convinced him to be better?

Heh, actually quite a few of us were vocal about "that horrible boy" being a young Severus Snape. :p
[Heh, heh....) (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=2737609&postcount=18)

I'm just interested in what Lily felt towards Snape after they stopped being friends, after the mudblood comment and especially after she started dating/married James. Did Lily ever hate Snape, or did she just give up on him and try to forget, or did she remember and maybe regret that she hadn't convinced him to be better?

I think that is up for speculation, but I believe that if Lily and Snape had remained friends, Snape would have been less inclined to join the death eaters. Even pre DH, I believed that something pushed Snape over the edge. Yes, he was friendly toward some pre Death Eaters before he left Hogwarts, but Lily's love could have saved him. Snape's worst Memory was perhaps the moment when he lost Lily forever. She changed from being his best friend to, in just over a year, dating James Potter. I think Snape had his heart broken and couldn't bear it.

However, we know that Lily and Snape were in Advanced Potions together, and that both were stars of the class. How tragic if they went from being best friends to not even speaking in those classes. If that is truly the case, I am disheartened that Lily could not find it in her heart to forgive Sev.

Inkwolf, love the fanfic...I remember that speculation quite well ;)

With the chapter 'snape's worst memory' in context i was rather annoyed at Lily's reaction to Snape calling her a mudblood. When her sister calls her a freak she is clearly hurt by it immediately (her eyes "fill(ing) with tears"). In contrast, when her supposed best friend calls her a mudblood she is more annoyed by it than anything else. Admittingly she does hurry away but her immediate reaction is described as 'calm' even 'cool'. Even before Lily is called a mudblood, her "furious expression (directed at james) ... twitch(es) for an instant as though she was going to smile" at snape's humiliation.

What i'm getting at is that perhaps it wasn't only Snape's love that was unrequited. To me it seems evident that Snape placed greater value on their friendship than did Lily. To me it makes Snape's character all the more tragic - a man who sacrifices everything for less than he deserves.

I would disagree with this interpretation. First of all it must be remembered that there is an age difference between the two occurances. Petunia was her sister and she was eleven years old. If i was eleven and my sister, who i loved and cherished, called me a 'freak' not in some petty arguement but as a dead serious insult aimed to hurt and maime, i'd be pretty upset too, maybe more shocked than upset.

However when Snape calles her a 'mudblood' she's grown up a bit. She lets it hurt on the inside without letting it show too much on the outside. And once again i think there's an element of shock involved. Also i'm sure it wasn't entirely unexpected. I'm sure Lily regarded it as only a matter of time before Snape started to see her as he saw everyone else from muggle parents, as a mudblood.

IMO Lily was dreadfully hurt by Snape's comment. And the little twitch in her expression to James is also explainable. JK said that Lily was attracted to James even before the Snape incident. Therefore in this particular encounter she is extremely conflicted. Here, the boy she is crushing on is defending her, so she can't be completely furious with him. But at the same time, he's humiliating her good friend, so she is furious with him. And her good friend just insulted her in the sharpest way, so she isn't entirely ready to defend Snape. I think as much as it was a turning point in Snape's life, it was one for Lily too.

That's my interpretation of Snape's worst memory.

I thought before, that the only reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape could have been that Snape loved Lily. However, I had not expected them to to be friends even before Hogwarts. The way Jo explained it all was simply brilliant! And it made me cry, I felt so sorry for Snape. And all the sudden the title of the chapter "Snape's worst memory" makes so much sense in such a different way. Before, I thought it was his worst memory because he was being humiliated before every one else, and especially Lily. But it was the "Mudblood" and what followed from it that actually made it so bad. At least I think it did.

All I can say is: wow. The depth of emotion in which Snape loved Lily really brought a lot of answers. Especially about the connection to Lily's eyes bit. In the last book, the part where Snape revealed his patronus, a doe, was for me, one of the most emotional parts of the book. I got all misty eyed like Dumbledore.

Inkwolf, I just read that short fanfic, and that was a fun read!

With the chapter 'snape's worst memory' in context i was rather annoyed at Lily's reaction to Snape calling her a mudblood. When her sister calls her a freak she is clearly hurt by it immediately (her eyes "fill(ing) with tears"). In contrast, when her supposed best friend calls her a mudblood she is more annoyed by it than anything else. Admittingly she does hurry away but her immediate reaction is described as 'calm' even 'cool'. Even before Lily is called a mudblood, her "furious expression (directed at james) ... twitch(es) for an instant as though she was going to smile" at snape's humiliation.

OH yes,I was reading this scene again last time, and I noticed the 'twitch' in Lily's reaction too. It DID annoy and surprise me..Lily finding the humiliation of severus amusing, even if it was for an instant..I hope Harry was mistaken about her change of expression..As for your point about Lily's strong reaction to Snape calling her a 'mudblood'...I don't think she over reacted.. we know snape was not really a 'nice' guy..he hung around with DE sort of material.. Lily liked him because he was her old friend..she tried too ignore his bad company for such a long time..and imagine, Lily going in front of such a huge crowd to stop the humiliation of her best friend, and what she gets in return is being called a 'mudblood' by him..we must consider the great bunch of onlookers at that time yime..naturally she felt insulted. And retaliated by taunting at snape..even though snape is not to be blamed..he felt pretty humiliated himself at that time.
where as, when petunia calls her a freak, there was no audience to witness it..as freak is not as bad as 'mudblood' when you think of it..mudblood is the utmost swear word for wizards...filthy blood as they say in CoS.

It's sort of interesting to go from child-Snape hesitantly telling Lily that being muggleborn made no difference at all, to "I don't need help from a Mudblood!"

Weirder to think Snape grew up in a family where his mother was a pureblood who married a muggle. Did Eileen regret her choice bitterly? Did Snape's declining attitude toward muggleborns come from bad influences at school, or was it rooted in comments from the Prince family, or both?

His attitude toward Lily never changed, but if she HAD forgiven him, would it just have been a matter of time? Would Snape have been quite so obsessive over a successful love, rather than a lost one? Often what you want is far more emotionally compelling than what you actually have.

Just thoughts that interest me...

OK, finally finished the book, and where else to make my first post but here!
[STAFF EDIT] My latest Snape/Lily suspicion was that they were childhood friends before they went to school - it's still somewhere on the old Snape the Hero thread - and I was right [STAFF EDIT]. I have always thought the awful boy was Snape. It turned out quite possible that Lily would have something to do with such a horrible man, and that it could be the reason she was offered to be spared, and for Snape's remorse, and for Dumbledore's trust. And obviously the person who loved him was Lily. Oh, it feels so great.

The Prince's Tale was heartbreaking, and cried like I was dying throughout the whole chapter. I felt so sorry for Snape, so very sorry, because he could have been with the girl he loved. He was so lonely, and in his whole miserable life, only two people loved him - Lily and Dumbledore. And he lost her. Oh God, that was just so tragic. :upset:

Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts?

Because she was his friend, and that's what friends do.

How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory?

My view stays the same, because it was exactly what I thought it would turn out to be :)

Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"?

I think she did, eventually, she was such a fine person, and forgiveness was one of the major themes of DH and the series.

In the beginning of the memories from the Prince's Tale you can see when Snape comes to Dumbledore he is still a very selfish man, by the end of the Princes Tale you could see that he had become a selfless man fully reformed by love. Willing to make sure Harry succeded at all costs. Spying,lying and eventually dying. A hero in my book. :)

Oh yes! This is so, so true :)

Even at the beginning of Price's Tale i started crying because of how he told Lily it wasn't important if one is muggleborn!

This is exactly where I started crying too! When he said that, you could just feel his affection, his love, it was emanating from the paper.

I see what you mean. I see it as being similar to Woody's question in 'Toy Story'. If you do the right thing for the wrong reason, are you still a hero?

Snape's reasons were love and remorse. How is that wrong?



I haven't had time to read everything, I'll come back when I can and I'll try :)

It's sort of interesting to go from child-Snape hesitantly telling Lily that being muggleborn made no difference at all, to "I don't need help from a Mudblood!"

I think he only said it makes no difference because it was Lily asking..he didn't want to hurt her..remember he hesitated before answering her,which makes me think his opinion was other wise and he only didn't voice it loud for Lily's sake..
and i m sure that 'mudblood' slipped from his mouth in his humiliation. Lily says he called 'every other' muggle born a 'mudblood' , and clearly Lily was only an exception because he loved her..

I think Narcissa DID think of Snape as a friend. Her first priority at the moment was saving her son Draco and her friend Severus was the only way she could see to do it. Ironic isn't it that Snape was given the job of protecting both Draco and Harry. The son of Lily, the only woman he ever loved, and the son of Lucius Malfoy, who had befriended him on the day he came to Hogwarts and was sorted into Slytherin. The fact that Snape in no way betrayed Narcissa to Voldemort, when her actions, borne of love for Draco, certainly would have angered the Dark Lord considerably, shows Snape's friendship...or fraternal love, of which he was capable possibly only because he had learned it from Lily.

:no: I think she was selfish in asking Snape to kill Dumbledore. It's one thing for Voldy to do it, he's heartless. Remember at the time not even Voldemort could kill Dumbledore, yet she makes Snape put his LIFE on it. What would happen if he wasn't able to kill Dumbledore. She didn't know that Dumbeldore would have drank a goblet of potion and be weak. She didn't know that DD would have asked Snape to kill him. If Snape had attacked a normal Dumbledore he would not survived. I don't think DD would have killed him but he would have died from the vow because he would not have been able to kill him. So basically he would have died anyway.

Narcissa cares about her son. I will give her that much... but she dosn't care about Snape. She came there trying to talk a lonely man ( though she didn't know it was his choosing) into helping her son. She was fine when she was talking to Bella before but when Snape sees her she all crying and kissing his hand... I don't know what she think she was doing. I'm sure she left there feeling accomplised. As far as I am concerned she was NOT a friend to Snape and her tears didn't really have any effect on him. He did not care about any of them... it was all an act and I am thankful for it. I think Lily's son would trump Malfoy's son any day in terms of what Snape is willing do.

Originally posted by Yoana.
This is exactly where I started crying too! When he said that, you could just feel his affection, his love, it was emanating from the paper.

And I also loved the part when he sort of smiles when Lily calls her by his name 'Severus'...! that was so sweet..reminded me of Ginny loving Harry from such a tender age :D

A Kid: "If Snape didn't love Lilly, would he still try to protect Harry?"
JKR: "No. He definitely wouldn't. He wouldn't be remotely interested in what happens to this boy".

I am disappointed with this JKR quote. I'm already annoyed about the way Snape died and how little he appeared in DH, it is one of the things I disliked most about the book, and now she is saying Snape is essentially a brave bully! Obviously I respect JKR and they are her characters, but really it doesn't make much sense to me that Snape only protected Harry because he loved Lily. Snape protects a lot of people in his role as spy, he says to DD the only people he has seen die lately are those he cannot save. These aren't the words of someone who doesn't care about right and wrong but is only protecting someone because of a mistake they made 17 years ago. I'm not saying Snape is an angel of course he is mean and nasty, but I think it's clear he is a hero, I don't understand why she said that.

BINGO.

According to the "Snape is an amoral jerk whose only motivation is this creepy obsession with Lily" theory, Snape ought to have buggered off for parts unknown once DD told him Harry would have to die. Instead, he agrees to stick around as Headmaster to protect the students, risks blowing his cover by trying to save Lupin, and agrees to tell Harry he must die in order to defeat Voldemort. He clearly had a vested interest in seeing Voldemort defeated, and as many people spared as possible. I'm not saying he was always like that; I think he gradually grew a moral compass during his years following Lily's death. Severely Snapped likened it to the moral development of Oskar Schindler, and I think that's a brilliant analogy.

This thread is for discussing the relationship between Snape and Lily, as it was revealed in DH.

Stay on topic!

Okay, two interesting issues:

Snape was Sorted after Lily. He watched her go into Gryffindor, and I think it's fair to assume that his desire to be in the same house with her would outweigh everything else -- she's his ONLY friend, who's been the ONLY good thing in his life since the age of eight or nine. And we know that, later in life, he was willing to give everything up for her...

So why didn't he ask the Sorting Hat to put him in Gryffindor, too? Was it a pride issue? Did he simply not realize you could ask? Did he just hate the idea of being a Gryffindor too much (though not the idea of being "best friends" with one)?

Secondly, I just realized that even after he started to date Lily, James never got off Snape's back. Yes, we know he did change and desisted his bullying ways, but we also know that that was "except for Snape. He was always a bit of a special case..."

Ouch, man.

I thought that there could have been a relationship between Snape & Lily just because it seemed off the wall, and i had this horrible feeling that when there was the chapter devoted to Snape's memories that we would have found out that Harry was actually his (but thank goodness that didn't happen). Anyways, I think that this relationship is very fitting b/c now we find out a lot of things, how DD could trust Snape and now that Snape is more like Harry than he thought of b/c he cared for others. But I do admit that i think i would have been a little creeped out by the boy Severus.

I thought that there could have been a relationship between Snape & Lily just because it seemed off the wall, and i had this horrible feeling that when there was the chapter devoted to Snape's memories that we would have found out that Harry was actually his (but thank goodness that didn't happen). Anyways, I think that this relationship is very fitting b/c now we find out a lot of things, how DD could trust Snape and now that Snape is more like Harry than he thought of b/c he cared for others. But I do admit that i think i would have been a little creeped out by the boy Severus.
That makes me think of a thread I want to start. Kind of like the Little Questions thread, but make it a What If thread. Ask questions like "What if Snape was Harry's real father?" Not really to discuss, but to think about and maybe chuckle or just provoke good thought.

Topic?

Sorry.

Anyways, I think that this relationship is very fitting b/c now we find out a lot of things, how DD could trust Snape and now that Snape is more like Harry than he thought of b/c he cared for others.

Interesting point. :agree:

I found the relationship touching in its innocence. It was sad, to me, that Snape picked guys like Avery and Mulciber over his friendship with Lily. It wasn't entirely surprising that he would, though, since the pattern of boys going into adolescence distancing themselves from the female friends of their childhood isn't unheard of (thus, innocence lost). His fear at losing her cost him her friendship, imo, but the fact that he never stopped caring and looked after Harry in his own way speaks volumes for the kind of person he might have been if he'd chosen his friends or house differently.

The relationship suggests to me why Severus became a Death Eater.

When you find a love so pure it seems impossible, a miracle, you believe in God.

If that love is taken from you, before you even had a chance, you might believe in the Devil.

The relationship suggests to me why Severus became a Death Eater.

When you find a love so pure it seems impossible, a miracle, you believe in God.

If that love is taken from you, before you even had a chance, you might believe in the Devil.

I agree. I think that if Lily and Snape had reconsiled after the mudblood incident, then yes, Snape may not have joined the Death Eaters. I think that Lily's friendship was the only thing holding him back from this and that once that was gone, he had no where else to turn. He had no other friends to rely on but her and so, I believe, their rift was the impetus Snape needed to join.

I agree. I think that if Lily and Snape had reconsiled after the mudblood incident, then yes, Snape may not have joined the Death Eaters. I think that Lily's friendship was the only thing holding him back from this and that once that was gone, he had no where else to turn. He had no other friends to rely on but her and so, I believe, their rift was the impetus Snape needed to join.

Isn't that circular reasoning? Lily ended the friendship because Snape could not deny the fact that he was planning to become a Death Eater. The only thing he would have had to do to save the friendship would have been to convince her otherwise. Of course, given that she knew him fairly well, he would have had to be sincere about it, and the way I read it, that was precisely the problem.

It wasn't just the day he "lost" her. It was the day he truly chose the wrong course and set in motion the events that would ultimately end in her death.

But such a day changes a life. My first love, and to this day the strongest infatuation I ever felt, was back in high school, and I always identified with Snape because my school days seemed so much like his. I was a greasy-haired geek in school with no friends, no money nor looks. And I fell - hard - for a stunning beauty whom everyone found intelligent, gracious, and charming. She thought I was a really nice guy and we were friends. For a time, that was enough, because she was dating a football player and - well - I was just a geek with nothing to offer.

But one day, I worked up the courage to tell her how I felt about her. I told her that I loved her, always had from the moment I had first seen her, and I had to tell her.

Big mistake.

She told me what she always had, that I was a "great guy", "super nice", all the things teen-age girls tell a boy when they want to shoot him down, but do it politely. She made it clear there would never be an 'us'.

When she walked away, I knew that I would never have her, indeed I never had a chance. More than thirty years later, I can still remember that day, how she looked, how she smelled, and it's like a knife in the chest.

Oh yeah, I can relate to Severus. And Ms. Rowling proved her skill in telling the story so well.

But such a day changes a life. My first love, and to this day the strongest infatuation I ever felt, was back in high school, and I always identified with Snape because my school days seemed so much like his. I was a greasy-haired geek in school with no friends, no money nor looks. And I fell - hard - for a stunning beauty whom everyone found intelligent, gracious, and charming. She thought I was a really nice guy and we were friends. For a time, that was enough, because she was dating a football player and - well - I was just a geek with nothing to offer.

But one day, I worked up the courage to tell her how I felt about her. I told her that I loved her, always had from the moment I had first seen her, and I had to tell her.

Big mistake.

She told me what she always had, that I was a "great guy", "super nice", all the things teen-age girls tell a boy when they want to shoot him down, but do it politely. She made it clear there would never be an 'us'.

When she walked away, I knew that I would never have her, indeed I never had a chance. More than thirty years later, I can still remember that day, how she looked, how she smelled, and it's like a knife in the chest.

Oh yeah, I can relate to Severus. And Ms. Rowling proved her skill in telling the story so well.

Very, very good point and very good post. Hits the nail on the head.

My first love is also my "strongest" love. I've loved since, but strangely enough, I feel very much now.. On reflection that my love was somewhat posessive and obsessive. It's only when you truly get over these things, move on and find someone else do you realise how intense first love really is... And also how plain silly it makes you.

Also, like you, I'm the nerd and the oddball. Still am. I feel like the only female that works/has an active interest in IT in my workplace! ...That's because I am though... lol. Funny though, all guys treat me essentially like another guy.. And I find it incredibly hard to get dates..! I'm just different to the majority of girls.. And I enjoy that and want a guy to respect it, too.

Even though I'm 21.. Gosh, you may find it rather funny that I do talk about things like this.. But I do believe Rowling almost wrote Snape's teenage years for the older generation. I actually couldn't shake that out of my head when reading The Prince's Tale and also afterwards. ESPECIALLY, his talk over Lily...

Wow! I loved the way JKR surprised at least me with this one. I know that a lot of clever people had this in their mind after HBP, but I have to say that the idea of Snape and Lily as childhood friends came as a complete surprise to me, mind you a very nice one, I was literally jumping with excitement when I read the chapter.

To join in recent discussions I don't think Lily would have forgiven Snape for calling her a Mudblood and that would be the reason he joined the Death Eaters.

I enjoy that and want a guy to respect it, too.

Good observation, I got the sense that Severus wanted people to see how brilliant he was, but no one ever did. Except for Tom Riddle's gang.

But I do believe Rowling almost wrote Snape's teenage years for the older generation. I actually couldn't shake that out of my head when reading The Prince's Tale and also afterwards. ESPECIALLY, his talk over Lily...

Oh, absolutely. It's when you look back at your 'old days' that you see how strong ideals, friends, and feelings can be, and how they change the course of your life. These kids today ...:lol:

I suspected from HBP that there was some sort of relatrionship between Lily and Snape, however I thought it would have been purely one sided, I didnt think that Lily would have associated with someone so involved in the dark arts, let alone him being a slytherin. I did suspect that the relationship had something to do with Ddore giving Snape a second chance.

In HBP, I did have a sneaking suspicion about Snape liking Lily. I didn't know that he loved her. I actually thought the whole thing was rather romantic, or more like romantic tragedy. The relationship makes total sense in the context of the entire series. I was actually excited when it was revealed.

As far as them being friends, I think Lily stayed friends with Snape because of their childhood bond - they were the only ones among their peers that could do magic (pre-Hogwarts). Snape, being an outcast of sorts, admired Lily's kindness to him, none that anyone had shown him.

His calling Lily a "mudblood" was one of momentary anger, the way someone threatens a loved one with "I hate you", even though they truly don't. I think Lily knew that.

Snape's sorting into Slytherin was probably due to his like of power and ambition. He was teased when he was younger and felt he could overcome it through being more successful than others, rather than through bravery such as typical of Gryffindor. --- I'm going off on a tangent... Anyway, my point is that I don't think Snape could have been sorted in the same house as Lily, as they both resolve their problems differently.

I admit I thought this would never really happen but I'm glad it did, it was well written and my faourite subplot.

Before reading the book I was convinced Severus was good, but while reading the book I was fooled into thinking he was evil (repeat of the first book and no doubt intentional on Jo's part!). I'm probably one of the few who fell in that trap TWICE!

It also explains why Snape wanted to be the one to catch Sirius in PoA and asked Hermione to keep quiet about things she didn't understand - he still believed Sirius was the Secret Keeper and betrayed the Potters location to Voldemort, so he'd have blamed Sirius for Lily's death.

I didnt think that Lily would have associated with someone so involved in the dark arts, let alone him being a slytherin.
I'd hope that Lily wasn't that shallow and could care less about what house Snape was in. they were, of course, best friends BEFORE they even entered Hogwarts so being in seperate houses didn't effect their friendship...at first of course when Snape wasn't friends with Avery and Mulciber.

Also, we didn't really see that Snape knew much dark arts in the memories...hmmm.

It also explains why Snape wanted to be the one to catch Sirius in PoA and asked Hermione to keep quiet about things she didn't understand - he still believed Sirius was the Secret Keeper and betrayed the Potters location to Voldemort, so he'd have blamed Sirius for Lily's death.
Yes, exactly :)

Secondly, I just realized that even after he started to date Lily, James never got off Snape's back. Yes, we know he did change and desisted his bullying ways, but we also know that that was "except for Snape. He was always a bit of a special case..."


Yeah. He bullied Snape behind Lily's back. The worst thing is that he always did it when he had friends to back him up. What loser. I really hate Harry's dad right now.

Isn't that circular reasoning? Lily ended the friendship because Snape could not deny the fact that he was planning to become a Death Eater. The only thing he would have had to do to save the friendship would have been to convince her otherwise. Of course, given that she knew him fairly well, he would have had to be sincere about it, and the way I read it, that was precisely the problem.


No his friends were planning on becoming Death Eaters. Sirius said that most of Snapes friends became Death Eaters. It sounded to me like Snape was a section in that group that weren't planning on joining LV until Lily broke it off.

No his friends were planning on becoming Death Eaters. Sirius said that most of Snapes friends became Death Eaters. It sounded to me like Snape was a section in that group that weren't planning on joining LV until Lily broke it off.

But she accused him of it and only when he did not have a negative reply she finally turned and ended the discussion.

No his friends were planning on becoming Death Eaters. Sirius said that most of Snapes friends became Death Eaters. It sounded to me like Snape was a section in that group that weren't planning on joining LV until Lily broke it off.

I always believed he became a death eater because as one of Voldemort's cronies they were past emotions like love and such. He was hurting from Lily. He didn't want to feel.

I always believed he became a death eater because as one of Voldemort's cronies they were past emotions like love and such. He was hurting from Lily. He didn't want to feel.

thats what I thought too. He wanted to be opposite from what he was before, to separate himself from the hurting. Too bad it didn't work...

I think, and i said it previously, that Snape joined the Death Eaters to get as far from Lily and James as possible. After the 'Mudblood' incident, and even if Lily forgave Snape, things would never be the same between them. Lily and James were now an item and that would destroy poor Severus.

Say, after the prince's worst memory, Lily forgave him, keeping in mind things would never be quite the same again between them. Severus wouldn't have jumped trains and joined the Order. Like i said, there is no way he would have consented to be around Lily when she was with James, it would have made him die a little inside. So, in what direction would he run?? Towards the other end of the spectrum, to the Death Eaters.

Now say, Lily never did forgive him. He's already become "friends" with future Death Eaters, why would he change his path now? Now that he has no Lily he would have just continued the way he was going, but now without a chance of being persuaded otherwise by Lily.

IMO, the only way to have stopped all this was for Sev to have been sorted into Gryphindor. That way he would have been perpetually under the influence of Lily, and he would never have fallen under the shadow of Lucius Malfoy and his fellow future Death Eaters. It seems to be Sev's lot to be continually choosing between Lily and the Dark Arts. Gryphindor or Slytherin. Lily or my future Death Eater 'friends'. Lily or Mudblood. etc.

thats what I thought too. He wanted to be opposite from what he was before, to separate himself from the hurting. Too bad it didn't work...

Actually I think it’s perfect that it didn’t work, otherwise Snape would have never helped Harry at all.

Say, after the prince's worst memory, Lily forgave him, keeping in mind things would never be quite the same again between them. Severus wouldn't have jumped trains and joined the Order. Like i said, there is no way he would have consented to be around Lily when she was with James, it would have made him die a little inside. So, in what direction would he run?? Towards the other end of the spectrum, to the Death Eaters.

Right now I'm listening to some sad music from the movie OotP. I read this and I want to cry imagining Snape dieing inside. I'm crying as I write this. i don't care what JK Rowling says. Snape is MY hero. So....Tragic...

:upset: poor Snape :upset: poor Lily :upset: poor James :upset: poor Harry

Why is it so sad!?!?!?

A bit blasphemous maybe, but d'you suppose that even Jo is having a hard time accepting Severus' pure love for Lily?

I think, and i said it previously, that Snape joined the Death Eaters to get as far from Lily and James as possible. After the 'Mudblood' incident, and even if Lily forgave Snape, things would never be the same between them. Lily and James were now an item and that would destroy poor Severus.

Say, after the prince's worst memory, Lily forgave him, keeping in mind things would never be quite the same again between them. Severus wouldn't have jumped trains and joined the Order. Like i said, there is no way he would have consented to be around Lily when she was with James, it would have made him die a little inside. So, in what direction would he run?? Towards the other end of the spectrum, to the Death Eaters.

Now say, Lily never did forgive him. He's already become "friends" with future Death Eaters, why would he change his path now? Now that he has no Lily he would have just continued the way he was going, but now without a chance of being persuaded otherwise by Lily.

IMO, the only way to have stopped all this was for Sev to have been sorted into Gryphindor. That way he would have been perpetually under the influence of Lily, and he would never have fallen under the shadow of Lucius Malfoy and his fellow future Death Eaters. It seems to be Sev's lot to be continually choosing between Lily and the Dark Arts. Gryphindor or Slytherin. Lily or my future Death Eater 'friends'. Lily or Mudblood. etc.
Lily knew he was going to be a Death Eater, and so did Snape, before they stopped talking.
"Slipped out?" There was no pity in Lily's voice. "It's too late. I've made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends - you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?"
He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking.
"I can't pretend anymore. You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine."

I think, and i said it previously, that Snape joined the Death Eaters to get as far from Lily and James as possible. After the 'Mudblood' incident, and even if Lily forgave Snape, things would never be the same between them. Lily and James were now an item and that would destroy poor Severus.

Say, after the prince's worst memory, Lily forgave him, keeping in mind things would never be quite the same again between them. Severus wouldn't have jumped trains and joined the Order. Like i said, there is no way he would have consented to be around Lily when she was with James, it would have made him die a little inside. So, in what direction would he run?? Towards the other end of the spectrum, to the Death Eaters.

Now say, Lily never did forgive him. He's already become "friends" with future Death Eaters, why would he change his path now? Now that he has no Lily he would have just continued the way he was going, but now without a chance of being persuaded otherwise by Lily.

IMO, the only way to have stopped all this was for Sev to have been sorted into Gryphindor. That way he would have been perpetually under the influence of Lily, and he would never have fallen under the shadow of Lucius Malfoy and his fellow future Death Eaters. It seems to be Sev's lot to be continually choosing between Lily and the Dark Arts. Gryphindor or Slytherin. Lily or my future Death Eater 'friends'. Lily or Mudblood. etc.

Wow, yes I agree with that, also I can't believe really this thread has gone past a THOUSAND posts. DUDE we are like obsessed, but Jo doesn't mind. Now anyway your right, if Lily did forgive Severus, but I don't think she did, he would of never EVER been comfortable around James and Sirius. That would just drive him away. If she didn't which I think, he had nothing to stop his future with the DE's. I'm not sure about it if he was in Gryffindor, would his interests have been the same?

Right now I'm listening to some sad music from the movie OotP. I read this and I want to cry imagining Snape dieing inside. I'm crying as I write this. i don't care what JK Rowling says. Snape is MY hero. So....Tragic...

:upset: poor Snape :upset: poor Lily :upset: poor James :upset: poor Harry

Why is it so sad!?!?!?

Haha Nutty, are you still here too weeping? It indeed is still very sad and tragic. Snape is a hero of sorts, he's a human kind of hero.

I think Snape’s exact hero status is subjective. I certainly see him as a bit of a hero. Certainly the most tragic character in the book.

A bit blasphemous maybe, but d'you suppose that even Jo is having a hard time accepting Severus' pure love for Lily?
Nah, I reckon she'll have a harder time dealing with the fact that, despite Snape being a nasty piece of work, a lot of readers now like his character due to "the chapter". I doubt she was expecting that especially since she seemed shocked to know that people actually like the mean characters to begin with.

A bit blasphemous maybe, but d'you suppose that even Jo is having a hard time accepting Severus' pure love for Lily?

When I read it it was like a sucker punch in the stomach. Not in a bad way. Just in a shocking way. I bet when that twist popped into her mind she was having a hard time. In her interview I sensed she didn't want Snape to prevail or find any peace. It was just "Snape's spiteful, ooh that ought to hurt" But it made a great plot. Sometimes we just gotta accept the blows as they come.

What does blasphemous mean?

Wow, Haha Nutty, are you still here too weeping? It indeed is still very sad and tragic. Snape is a hero of sorts, he's a human kind of hero.

I'm weeping...inside.

Nah, I reckon she'll have a harder time dealing with the fact that, despite Snape being a nasty piece of work, a lot of readers now like his character due to "the chapter". I doubt she was expecting that especially since she seemed shocked to know that people actually like the mean characters to begin with.

I think that too...I don't think she expected so many of us to really now embrace this character. I've liked him since book 1 even though he seemed evil, I knew he wasn't, just a jerk. Haha but she does make a lot of characters you can like and lots of us happen to be fond of Severus Snape. So this chapter aka "the chapter" (I haven't heard anyone use it as that yet except from you!) has really made people become fond.

So glad that I finished the book, I am still trying to come to terms with it all, I am extremely happy how JK revealed the relationship between Snape and Lily. It satisfies me more to know that Snape wasnt just in love with the idea of Lily Evans but truly knew and loved her.

I am just going to ramble some incoherent thoughts, please bare with me:

It was great to see that they had a normal friendship - 'best friends' - and did what normal friends do - like argue and share secrets.
I don't like to think that it was an 'unrequited love' because while Snape and Lily were best friends the love was reciprocated thus Snape knew this love and had felt the rewards of her love.

I think Lily probably didn't forgive Snape for the mudblood comment, and that why it is truly his worst memory.

I suspect Snape was very intuitive teenager; he already figured out that James had a crush on Lily before she had figured it out. Being her good friend he probably realised that she liked James before even Lily herself admitted it to herself. It seems to jump out of the page that she likes James the way she behaves specifically with James in SWM in OoTP, this may have been one of the reasons Snape reacted angrily with the mudblood comment.

I think Lily's final rejection of the friendship contributed toSnape's turn to the DE. I hate that she had to own this though. I wonder if she thought about this and the end of their friendship?

Also, this brings more significance to Sirius saying James and co. continued picking on Snape because he was a 'special case' - Lily's old friend, a way to keep them apart and further seperate them? Would James have justified his specific behaviour towards Snape because of the hurt to Lily ?

What does blasphemous mean?

In this discussion, the idea that the author might not fully identify with her own characters might strike some as 'blasphemous'. That is, irreverent.

I understand unrequited love too. :) Even 25 years of it. Apparently Lily was the only person Snape ever loved. It seems no one else ever loved him and so Lily would mean so much to him. And i can understand his feelings when someone came along and became an obstacle between he and Lily (James).

I think that Snape was already on the way toward being a DE and that says a lot. Being a DE says many things. It says that you believe in the superiority of 'pure' blood. It is racist. It is elitist. Those folks ascribed to a philosophy that they alone, had the right to treat non-purebloods worse than dogs...worse even than house elves. And Snape joined that group for awhile. So it tells us a lot about the man.

I think Lily may have caused him to (momentarily) question his beliefs. He probably wondered how someone he loved could be non-pureblood or care about non-purebloods. Snape's love for Lily was pretty much his only redeeming quality. It is pretty much the sole reason he decided to work for the Order. If not for Lily, he could care less what happened to Harry or other non-DE's. And thats pretty selfish imo.

But Snape was not a good guy. He was brave, but I dont think he was a hero by any stretch. He was despicable. He was a tyrant in the classroom and tormented kids at every opportunity. He took many opportunities to torment Harry and this wasnt related to him being a spy. In many ways, he was a child-abuser.

I think DD put it best to Snape himself when he said.. you see what you want to see Severus.. in regards to Harry being "arrogant" like his father. I think JK did a great job on creating a character like Snape.. where he wasn't outright evil nor was he exactly good.. it was up to us on how we perceived him .. we only saw him through Harry's eyes until the end.. JK writes her characters so well that you cannot but help to like them.. even if they are evil...I think I like Snape even more now b/c my wish of him being good did come true so now that my perception of him changed.. as did Harry's!

Well, as some people pointed out a while ago, we could deduce that Dumbledore thought that Snape cared deeply for Lily from what Dumbledore told Harry in "The Horcruxes." There, we are told that: Snape was horrified to have endangered Harry's parents;
The greatest remorse of Snape's life was that they died;
Snape absolutely hated Harry's fatherSo, if Snape cared about Harry's parents but hated one of them, that could only have meant that Snape cared deeply for the other one.

That being written......

I had a couple of huge gripes with Hallows. "The Prince's Tale" more than made up for all of them. It was by far the most powerful chapter in the series. Snape was by far the most interesting character that Rowling devised, and I really think that Snape will be long remembered as one of the greatest non-protagonists ever devised.

Oh, my God, I was sooooo wrong! I never in my wildest dreams thought Snape capable of love, and the idea of him being in love with a Mudblood seemed so improbable (before DH, at least). I never suspected Snape being "that horrible boy". Yet, it was him who revealed to Lily that she was a witch, and introduced her to the magical world. It could have been because it was Snape that introuced her to the magical world that she remained her friend, at least for a while, and even tried to warn him about his friendship to future Death Eaters.
(By the way, I never knew that Lucius Malfoy was older than Snape and Lily, I always thought they were the same age, but Malfoy was prefect when they started at Hogwarts.)

I was really surprised by the Snape/Lily relationship. I had kind of a vague idea that Dumbledore's reason for trusting Snape had something to do with Snape liking Lily, but I always thought that if that was the case, he'd have loved her from afar. Never dreamed they'd have been friends in childhood.

I had thought that Snape was in love with Lily but i hadn't ever thought about whether Lily was in love with Snape. And i agree, i hadn't ever thought they were friends in child hood, i couldn't see Snape and Lily hanging out and having moments.

Does anyone know whether Snape ever mentions Lily prior to "The Prince's Tale?" It seems like practically every other adult who knew Lily and James can't get through their introductions without someone mentioning Harry's physical resemblance to both of his parents, or at least mentions it at some point in the books. I can't recall Snape ever mentioning Lily in conversation.

Does anyone know whether Snape ever mentions Lily prior to "The Prince's Tale?" It seems like practically every other adult who knew Lily and James can't get through their introductions without someone mentioning Harry's physical resemblance to both of his parents, or at least mentions it at some point in the books. I can't recall Snape ever mentioning Lily in conversation.
It was a huge Snape-Lily theory point pre-DH that Snape never once mentioned Lily. I'm not 100% sure this is 100% true, but I would guess it is. Normally theorists are decently thorough.

Does anyone know whether Snape ever mentions Lily prior to "The Prince's Tale?" It seems like practically every other adult who knew Lily and James can't get through their introductions without someone mentioning Harry's physical resemblance to both of his parents, or at least mentions it at some point in the books. I can't recall Snape ever mentioning Lily in conversation.

Nor can I. I don’t believe he does.

I was wrong, wrong, wrong. But I enjoyed being wrong. I enjoyed the story; it was very Wuthering Heights like. And really who doesn’t love a tragic love story at least a little. Now looking back at Snape’s treatment of Harry it is very similar to Heathcliffe’s treatment of Cathy. I should have known! Still it was kind of nice being surprised.


I totally agree. Except that Cathy had loved Heathcliffe until she died. I doubt Lily ever loved Snape in a romantic way.
In Wuthering Heights, Heatcliffe tried to become a respectable man, to earn the right not only to marry, but to love Cathy. His birth was the only obstacle to their love. But being a respectable person because of economic or politic welfare did not make him a good person. He was still an obscure character, like Snape.

In a sense, that is what Snape tried to do. Coming from a poor family, half blood, Snape reached a recognition from each sides, to have the right to love Lily, if not to win her heart.

In the wizarding world, Snape was nothing. His father was a muggle and they had no money. Most of the time, the very important wizards came from a kind of aristocracy, the most ancient families were rich (the Malfoys, Lestranges, Potters...). Birth was also very important, even if some people like Dumbledore fought against this. Not only Voldemort despised muggleborn or half born. It was wide spread around wizards.
Even in the muggle world, Snape was nothing. Petunia showed her disgust for Spinner's end. And how that "awful" boy could dare loved or worst, be loved by her sister?

The aim pursued by Snape during school, being one of the DE, showed his willingness for becoming someone respectable in the wizarding world. Respectable does not mean to be a nice personn. But for Snape, like for Heathcliffe, it means to be respected by his pairs. It may be being feared. It is to have an important position within important and influent people. I think Snape, in the time of Voldemort's rise to power, thought that being a DE could bring him a new recognition: he would have been in the most influent sphere of the time, never seen as the poor geek anymore.

To me, it is clear that he could not have totally agreed with Voldemort's racial views (as he is a half blood, yet a great wizard, who loved a muggle bord girl). We know for sure that he never killed on Voldemort's orders, as he asked Dumbledore to care about his soul. I also that could explains his sorting into slytherin, even if Lily was sorted in Griffindor just before him.

I guess that for him, he was important to become someone before he could even tell Lily his feelings. But he messed it up. He did not see that the Dark Arts were not the way to get Lily's heart. James became someone before he did. "Big Quidditch hero..."

And like Heathcliffe, as he understood that his chosen path will never help him conquer the woman he loved, that it even led him to loose her (he first lost her friendship, then she died, in part because of him), he decided to become someone good, not someone respectable. He did not care anymore about his life or how people could consider him. He refused that Dumbledore told everyone who he had become, letting a major doubt throught the wizarding world. He accepted to kill Dumbledore, knowing that he could become an outcast doing so.

And all of this was for the woman he never ceased to love. It is very sad, because Lily's actions towards him are really disturbing to me.

Of course she was the one who cared about him during their first years at Hogwarts, and probably before. However we could wonder if that friendship was really equal. Snape represented her enter into the wizarding world. He was the one who told her about her being a witch. But after entered in Hogwarts, Lily made herself. She was brilliant, gifted, beautiful and kind. Of course, everybody would have wonder why she was still talking to that "awful" Snape. Was that really why she refused to forgive him after the "mudblood" accident? I think that the idea of being associate with Snape, with the Dark Arts, with anti-muggle born people, would have become unbearable for Lily, above all if she had already a crush on James (who hated the Dark Arts).

When she asked Snape why she was so different from the other people Snape called "mudblood", in fact, she already knew the answer. She already knew that Snape would not be capable of answering. Girls always know when a man is in love with her. We always know. It is hard to think that Lily never notice the greed in Snape's eyes, his intense gazes at her... "I won't let you", "he fancies you"... Oh if she never noticed those, she was really blind...

And it is very sad to thought about how Snape would have cheered the holidays, while he could have Lily for him alone, as they lived near each other... until the "mudblood accident". What happened these summers after she gave up his friendship? Did he continue to "spy" on her?

I love the Chapter "19 years later" where Harry says "Severus is the bravest man I know" (or there abouts). It really left a clincher in my heart between the two past foes. It was such a contrast when he says this, since throughout the whole series harry depises Snape and suddenly, one little memory makes him feel so different......I love it!

I'm sorry, I don't remember how we know Snape has never killed? I don't get the Dumbledore reference.

What's despicable about Lily's actions towards Snape to you? I think she tried the hardest she could and eventually just had to let go. I don't see that she did anything wrong.

The summers question is a really good point. I wonder if Lily ever visited James and Sirius...

Of course she was the one who cared about him during their first years at Hogwarts, and probably before. However we could wonder if that friendship was really equal.

And it is very sad to thought about how Snape would have cheered the holidays, while he could have Lily for him alone, as they lived near each other... until the "mudblood accident". What happened these summers after she gave up his friendship? Did he continue to "spy" on her?

I waxed Wuthering Heights as well. I think Heathcliff was an even crueler person than Snape, however. However, LOVE Wuthering Heights. And in a very real sense Cathy LITERALLY haunted Heathcliff, while Lily figuratively haunted Snape.

Anyway, remember in conversation Snape tells Lily, "I thought we were friends. BEST friends?" And she readily agrees, "We are!" So yes, I think it was an equal friendship. And Snape makes her BLUSH when he's looking at her. They were obviously still close enough to wear he was helping her with Potions by 5th year. I'm sure that some of his most precious memories was being alone with her in the summer's off -- but those memories wouldn't have moved the narrative forward and were unneccessary to write in IMO.


In some warped way, their friendship mirrors Ron/Hermione in that it seems the male keeps doing idiotic things that frustrates the girl, the girl keeps hoping the boy will grow up and admit feelings. The problem is Snape, unlike Ron, could not resist the lure of power, the dark arts, and his vile friends. He doesn't grow up until AFTER Lily dies. While Ron finds the confidence and wherewithal to grow up during DH. How much of that has to do with the fact that Ron has love from his parents, family and friends -- which Snape severly lacks. You see it in gangs in ghettos etc. -- many times young men are lured into these dangerous unhealthy gangs bc it's the only form of acceptance and family that they have.

Whatever the case, I think the friendship was absolutely equal - it as much as SAYS so in the book. The rift comes from Snape and Snape alone. I'm sure it pained Lily that he was falling deeper and deeper into the spell of Slytherin, the Dark Arts and Voldy. But at the end of the day she had no choice but to wash her hands of it. If Snape had the guts to make a decision to tell her he adored her and that he was done with all the evil influences in his life then he might have very well had a chance. And therein lies the sadness when Dumbldeore implies he might well have done well in Slytherin.

I'm sorry, I don't remember how we know Snape has never killed? I don't get the Dumbledore reference.

What's despicable about Lily's actions towards Snape to you? I think she tried the hardest she could and eventually just had to let go. I don't see that she did anything wrong.

The summers question is a really good point. I wonder if Lily ever visited James and Sirius...

Well, I admit I just have a guess that Snape has never killed before HBP. When Dumbledore asked him to kill him he said:
"That boy soul is not yet damaged. I would not have it ripped apart on my account"
"And my soul,Dumbledore? Mine?"
"You alone know whether it will harm your soul to help an old man avoid pain and humiliation"
("The Prince's tale", p.548, UK edition)

I could be wrong of course, but Snape seemed to disagree having his soul ripped apart, and to really undestand what it means to kill someone. He was worryied about his soul, he seemed more conscient of the damage that could be a DE, or Voldemort.
Of course, it could just mean that Snape did not want his soul ripped apart again, but I think not.

Concerning Lily, I don't think that her actions towards Snape were despicable. I probably don't make myself clear (It is very hard to be clear when english is not your birth language :grumble:).
Let me try to qualify how I think about her. It is an odd feeling. She was just a teenager, so I can't totally blame her.

Lily seemed to be a smart girl. She was really kind and probably saw the best in people, like Dumbledore. She was very kind to Petunia, even if her sister was reluctant to her magic, she was kind to Snape, accepting that this bad-looking boy could be appreciate as a friend, etc. (Well, she was strongly wrong about Peter, but he was first a friend of James after all).

Having say that, I believe that she might have notice Snape's feelings towards her. She knew that he liked/loved her even if she was muggle born. So she must have notice that Snape did not really take birth into account, even if he didn't intend to do so. Being in love with her, Snape could not think that "mudblood" were nothing on earth anymore.
I think that Lily knew that. When she asked him "why should I be different?", she knew the answer. She knew that it was because he loved her, and because of that, he did not really think badly about muggleborn. She also knew that Snape could not tell her that he loved her. Because he loved her since a long time ago, and had all the time he had wanted to tell her, which he never did.

Which is to me disturbing. She used his weakness to shut her door. She asked him the only question he could not answer, she wanted him a justification he could not give.
She knew that Snape could be a good person, but she forced his way to DE. She could have tell him that she could forgive him if he changed his mind about becoming a death eater. But she clearly told him that they were both on different ways, and that there was no way back. She told him that it was definite. They were just in 5th year.
And then, in this scene, she always noted that her friends could not understand their friendship. It looked like it was because of the others that she dropped him. She didn't say "you hurt me" but "my friends", "I have made excuse for you"... When you like someone, you do not chose your friendship because of others, but of what you feel for the person you consider as a friend.

I think that what she really told him that night, according to what happened in snape's worst memory (her little smile etc), was that she chose her crush on James (who hated dark arts, who despised Snape) uppon a friendship with Snape. She knew that she could not have both, because they were rivals.

Of course she had to stop Snape hoping he could have her if she had no romantic feelings for him. But I think the way she did it was really mean. She broke his heart because she did not even let him her friendship. And she offered no chance for him to change, to drop the DE idea. She let him think that he could not change anymore.

But I admit that my view on Lily's actions is mostly based on the fact that I strongly believe she knew he loved her. I could be totally wrong about that. It is just that she couldn't have noticed it. It seems unthinkable for me, but I have no canon to prove it.

Does any body know of a place in the books that Lily was mentioned around Snape? I want to see what kind of reaction he had. Any body?

In some warped way, their friendship mirrors Ron/Hermione in that it seems the male keeps doing idiotic things that frustrates the girl, the girl keeps hoping the boy will grow up and admit feelings. The problem is Snape, unlike Ron, could not resist the lure of power, the dark arts, and his vile friends. He doesn't grow up until AFTER Lily dies. While Ron finds the confidence and wherewithal to grow up during DH. How much of that has to do with the fact that Ron has love from his parents, family and friends -- which Snape severly lacks. You see it in gangs in ghettos etc. -- many times young men are lured into these dangerous unhealthy gangs bc it's the only form of acceptance and family that they have.


I agree with you. Snape grew up only after the irreversible had happened.
Lily would have propably waited for something like that. That is why we girls are so stupid sometimes...:lol:
I mean, basing on my own experience of complicated relationships, that we often wait for boys to tell us instead of just accepting what we see, what our instinct tell us... But I think that most of the time, it is a question of pride.

Does anyone know whether Snape ever mentions Lily prior to "The Prince's Tale?"
I don't believe her name ever passed his lips in front of Harry. It's one of the things that tipped readers off to the possibility that there was something deeper there, especially since Snape talked about James all the time.

What's despicable about Lily's actions towards Snape to you? I think she tried the hardest she could and eventually just had to let go. I don't see that she did anything wrong.
Lily didn't do anything wrong. She was kind to Snape, always, and when she saw him mixing with evil people who were already planning to become Death Eaters she called him on it. That's what friends do. If Snape had really, truly loved Lily, he would probably have heeded her advice and broken off with those friends. But Lily couldn't go against all her principles and be best buddies with a Death Eater!

I was thinking as I reread The Prince's Tale, that Snape could have chosen Gryffindor, since he knew Lily had been Sorted there, but he didn't. He could have chosen to leave his "Voldemort Youth" cronies and have Lily as a friend instead, but he didn't. He didn't appear to be interested in or capable of change. Lily Evans could not have remained friends with a boy who called her a Mudblood in public, and worse, whose friends used Dark magic on her friends, and who spent his spare time inventing curses such as Sectum Sempra. I don't see how anyone can blame Lily for Snape becoming a Death Eater. She broke off what remained of their friendship because he had already started along that road. I believe it pained her to say such things to her old friend, but they had to be said.

Well, as some people pointed out a while ago, we could deduce that Dumbledore thought that Snape cared deeply for Lily from what Dumbledore told Harry in "The Horcruxes." There, we are told that: Snape was horrified to have endangered Harry's parents;
The greatest remorse of Snape's life was that they died;
Snape absolutely hated Harry's fatherSo, if Snape cared about Harry's parents but hated one of them, that could only have meant that Snape cared deeply for the other one.
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Yes, I remember the Occam's Razor thread. It all made sense pre-DH, though I was unprepared for the emotional wallop that came with it. The Prince's Tale was incredibly moving and sweet and sad- my favorite part of DH, if not the whole series. I especially loved the use of the Silver Doe and the last page of the letter. I could cry again just thinking of it. Thank you JKR- it was beautifully done. I'll come back when I'm more coherent, only finished reading yesterday.

I still don't get why "Snape's worst memory" was, in fact, his worst memory. Pre-DH, not knowing of his feelings for her, I assumed that, having lived through the first war, surely he'd seen something worse. Now, post-DH, I would think that his worst memory would be finding out that she had been killed. I was obviously wrong before and am still wrong. :shrug:

I think I agree, he was upset at calling her mudblood, but devastated by her death. When he received that news, that should've been the worst memory.

I think that Snape loved Lily but Lily was only fond of Snape. I think the original mutual attraction was that here was another person who had that same "different" thing about them (later to be recognized as magic). They understood each other from that standpoint when perhaps the muggles around them didn't. I think that Snape continued to love Lily more and more (until the day he died) but Lily started to see disturbing things about Snape's interest in the darker side of magic once they got to school. I don't think Lily ever disliked him, but I think that when Snape called her a "mudblood" out loud to her face, he finally crossed the line of no return with her; the only way he could have returned to her favor would have been to renounce the Dark arts.

I love the Chapter "19 years later" where Harry says "Severus is the bravest man I know" (or there abouts). It really left a clincher in my heart between the two past foes. It was such a contrast when he says this, since throughout the whole series harry depises Snape and suddenly, one little memory makes him feel so different......I love it!

Which is why it really doesn't make sense that he was sorted to Slytherin, not Gryffindor.. "sort too soon" or not (as DD said), the guy was supposedly the bravest of all , and yet didn't get sorted to Gryffindor. Hmm. I guess he and Pettigrew got mixed up by the sorting hat ! lol (Somebody put a cunfundus charm on that thing or what ?)

Which is why it really doesn't make sense that he was sorted to Slytherin, not Gryffindor.. "sort too soon" or not (as DD said), the guy was supposedly the bravest of all , and yet didn't get sorted to Gryffindor. Hmm. I guess he and Pettigrew got mixed up by the sorting hat ! lol (Somebody put a cunfundus charm on that thing or what ?)

Well Snape showed braveness a long time after he was sorted.

Which is why it really doesn't make sense that he was sorted to Slytherin, not Gryffindor.. "sort too soon" or not (as DD said), the guy was supposedly the bravest of all , and yet didn't get sorted to Gryffindor. Hmm. I guess he and Pettigrew got mixed up by the sorting hat ! lol (Somebody put a cunfundus charm on that thing or what ?)
I think it makes more sense that Snape chose Slytherin based on what his mother might think. That seems to be the case with a lot of the students from Hogwarts that have wizarding families (if only half-blooded): to be in the house that the rest of their family was in. James admits this on the busride to Hogwarts. It reminds me of how some kids pick colleges based on one of their parents' alma mater.

I'm sure Snape didn't know that in "choosing" Slytherin over Gryffindor, it would cause him to miss out on a chance with the love of his life. An 11 year old can't possibly think that far into the future.

Like a few others here, I think Snape had never killed anyone before. But I also think Dumbledore was telling us something about how the soul is ripped by murder. Only Snape would know if putting Dumbledore out of his mysery would harm his soul.

I thinks it is very old, very deep magic, just like the life-debt. The life debt only functions if the person in debt believes themselves in debt. That is, they recognize that the person who saved them didn't have to do so, and they are grateful. Arrogant people who think they deserve saving don't aquire a life-debt, because they don't believe they own the other person anything.

I think the ripping of the soul is because the person is doing something evil, and they know it is evil yet still choose to do it. Snape's sould may not have been ripped because he wasn't murdering Dumbledore, but it still could have harmed his sould if he felt it was something he shouldn't do. If Draco had killed Dumbledore, he would not have known that he was dying anyway, and would not be doing it out of mercy - so his soul would be torn.

One other thought I had about Snape and Lily - is his relationship with Lily (possibly the most talented witch of her generation) reflected in how he treats Hermione? Isn't Hermione an awful lot like Lily, and wouldn't she remind Snape of Lily as well? Maybe not as much as Harry, but enough to make him hate her from the moment he met her - and she ended up in Gryffindor rather than Ravenclaw, where we might expect someone studious like her, just like Lily.

Interesting about Dumbledore's comment how he wondered if they didn't sort too early? What might have been different if they had been sorted a few years later? Would Lily have had enough influence over Snape to have pulled him to Gryffindor?

I think it makes more sense that Snape chose Slytherin based on what his mother might think. That seems to be the case with a lot of the students from Hogwarts that have wizarding families (if only half-blooded): to be in the house that the rest of their family was in. James admits this on the busride to Hogwarts. It reminds me of how some kids pick colleges based on one of their parents' alma mater.

I'm sure Snape didn't know that in "choosing" Slytherin over Gryffindor, it would cause him to miss out on a chance with the love of his life. An 11 year old can't possibly think that far into the future.

Yeah, and you know if you try to press into an eleven-year-old’s head that a simple decision, not even a conscious decision, he will make will either send him down a blissful path of righteousness or turn him into a miserable bitter old man who no one likes and is mean to everyone, all you get is a crying little kid.

My point is, he was oblivious then to how this would affect his life, so it was not necessarily a choice to follow this path, Slytherin was just all he knew. Besides, it seemed to me that he was resigned to Slytherin anyway. I noticed on the train he didn’t say “We’d better be in the same house” or anything like that, he said “You’d better be in Slytherin.” There was no doubt in his mind where he would be, and that sort of certainty alone could have partly decided for him.

I agree. I think that if Lily and Snape had reconsiled after the mudblood incident, then yes, Snape may not have joined the Death Eaters. I think that Lily's friendship was the only thing holding him back from this and that once that was gone, he had no where else to turn. He had no other friends to rely on but her and so, I believe, their rift was the impetus Snape needed to join.


I know this was a few pages back, but it raises an interesting question. What did cause Lily to leave the friendship?

I personally thought it was the fact that he called her a mudblood, not because of the Death Eaters. It was my understanding that he was not really a Death Eater at the time, he was only friends with them.

I know this was a few pages back, but it raises an interesting question. What did cause Lily to leave the friendship?

I personally thought it was the fact that he called her a mudblood, not because of the Death Eaters. It was my understanding that he was not really a Death Eater at the time, he was only friends with them.

Yeah, it was the mudblood comment that marked the end of their friendship.

Yeah, and you know if you try to press into an eleven-year-old’s head that a simple decision, not even a conscious decision, he will make will either send him down a blissful path of righteousness or turn him into a miserable bitter old man who no one likes and is mean to everyone, all you get is a crying little kid.

My point is, he was oblivious then to how this would affect his life, so it was not necessarily a choice to follow this path, Slytherin was just all he knew. Besides, it seemed to me that he was resigned to Slytherin anyway. I noticed on the train he didn’t say “We’d better be in the same house” or anything like that, he said “You’d better be in Slytherin.” There was no doubt in his mind where he would be, and that sort of certainty alone could have partly decided for him.

Exactly. The staff tries to dress up the entire ordeal by having a talking hat sing some fable about the 4 founders and the qualities that each house supposedly represents; these kids don't understand that the sorting affects not just the next 7 years of their life, but the kinds of contacts they keep after school and how they behave beyond their education.

Dumbledore hit it right on the nose when he said that "perhaps they sort too soon." Maybe it's just a fictional school, but it would make more sense if they waited until after the students had acclimated to the school for a little while before having them choose a house.

About what meltowne had said, I do believe that had sorting happened a few years later into their school career, Lily might have been able to "pull" Snape over to Gryffindor. He expected Slytherin, but who knows how just a few more years really knowing the school firsthand could have changed things?

The subject just has so many "what ifs" it's unbelievable.

Exactly. The staff tries to dress up the entire ordeal by having a talking hat sing some fable about the 4 founders and the qualities that each house supposedly represents; these kids don't understand that the sorting affects not just the next 7 years of their life, but the kinds of contacts they keep after school and how they behave beyond their education.

Dumbledore hit it right on the nose when he said that "perhaps they sort too soon." Maybe it's just a fictional school, but it would make more sense if they waited until after the students had acclimated to the school for a little while before having them choose a house.

About what meltowne had said, I do believe that had sorting happened a few years later into their school career, Lily might have been able to "pull" Snape over to Gryffindor. He expected Slytherin, but who knows how just a few more years really knowing the school firsthand could have changed things?

The subject just has so many "what ifs" it's unbelievable.

Exactly, that’s exactly what I think. And you know, I never thought about it to that degree until Dumbledore’s comment, which miraculously, I missed the first read through! *smacks self in face*

Exactly, that’s exactly what I think. And you know, I never thought about it to that degree until Dumbledore’s comment, which miraculously, I missed the first read through! *smacks self in face*

Where is that comment? Pg? Book?

Where is that comment? Pg? Book?

Deathly Hallows… um, one second… I think it’s page 680, but I’m not sure. I know it’s in the Prince’s Tale chapter, the memory where they are talking about Karkaroff. I can’t check, my daddy has the book and other people have been hogging it so much that he’s only on chapter eleven or something, so he’ll probably like, bite me if I try to take it…

Deathly Hallows… um, one second… I think it’s page 680, but I’m not sure. I know it’s in the Prince’s Tale chapter, the memory where they are talking about Karkaroff. I can’t check, my daddy has the book and other people have been hogging it so much that he’s only on chapter eleven or something, so he’ll probably like, bite me if I try to take it…

You're spot on, it's page 680 in the US version.

"No," agreed Dumbledore. "You are a braver man by far than Igor Karkaroff. You know, I sometimes think we Sort too soon..."

You're spot on, it's page 680 in the US version.

"No," agreed Dumbledore. "You are a braver man by far than Igor Karkaroff. You know, I sometimes think we Sort too soon..."

Whoa, I am so smart! Lol, jk. That page alone confirms to my satisfaction that Snape is a very brave man. Certainly worthy of Lily’s love, even if he never got it.

I personally thought it was the fact that he called her a mudblood, not because of the Death Eaters. It was my understanding that he was not really a Death Eater at the time, he was only friends with them.

It was after the Mudblood comment that she broke of the friendship, and she did object to it, but I don't think she did it out of a sense of personal injury. (The comment about his underwear was certainly for that reason - but by the time they had their conversation later that evening I think she had cooled off and had time to think about it.)

What she says to Sev, first, when he tries to apologize for what he said, is to go into a rant about his 'precious little Death Eater friends'. She expresses the opinion that he, and they, 'can't wait to join You-Know-Who'. This is a repetition of, or really, an expansion on, her discussion with him in the earlier scene, in which she expressed her disapproval of Mulciber and Avery (two future Death Eaters, and apparenly among Sev's Slytherin friends). In that earlier conversation, Harry does not think Sev even listened to Lily - so quite possibly she felt that as well.

In the post-SWM conversation. Sev does not deny any of her accusations about his friends or their intentions. Her parting shot is "But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?"

So I think, from her point of view in that point of the relationship, her best friend has become involved with future Death Eaters who are evil people (this is how she characterizes Mulciber and Avery's humor) and is prejudiced against people like her despite their friendship. Further, this was a concern that had been growing for some time, since it is refrenced as well in the earlier memory, and a concern Sev has seemed to be brushing off despite her repreated attempts to discuss it with him.

I think she did honestly believe what she accused him of, and felt she could not excuse it any more even for their old friendship. I consider that it was an entirely justified decision, and does not necessarily even mean she stopped caring for Sev right there. She may have hoped showing just how seriosly she felt about the problems she saw would bring him to his senses - true friends need to let their friends know when they are doing something that might mess up their whole lives, after all.


More peculative, but I am less sure that she was 100% correct. Sev's reason for ignoring her lecture on Mulciber and Avery in the earlier conversation was that he was still basking in the glow of hearing her call James a 'toerag'. It is clear to me that Sev already viewed him as a potential rival for Lily's romantic interest.

In the post SWM apology attempt, I think Lily sees it as damning that Sev does not deny his intention to become a Death Eater. However, in her vehemence, she does not let him complete a single sentence relevant to the topic under discussion. And he is described as 'struggling to speak'. I speculate that in his desperation, he may have been considering a declaration of his romantic interest in her, and this is why he did not address her concerns directly, he was nerving himself and trying to find the right introduction for what he wanted to say.

EDIT: I keep meaning to add, Tonks2005, that I ADORE your avatar. :lovel: :love: :love:

This bit of discussion on Snape and his bravery is better suited to his character thread here Severus Snape: Character Analysis v2 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=109066)

Let's keep this one on Snape and Lily and the relationship they had.

It was after the Mudblood comment that she broke of the friendship, and she did object to it, but I don't think she did it out of a sense of personal injury. (The comment about his underwear was certainly for that reason - but by the time they had their conversation later that evening I think she had cooled off and had time to think about it.)

What she says to Sev, first, when he tries to apologize for what he said, is to go into a rant about his 'precious little Death Eater friends'. She expresses the opinion that he, and they, 'can't wait to join You-Know-Who'. This is a repetition of, or really, an expansion on, her discussion with him in the earlier scene, in which she expressed her disapproval of Mulciber and Avery (two future Death Eaters, and apparenly among Sev's Slytherin friends). In that earlier conversation, Harry does not think Sev even listened to Lily - so quite possibly she felt that as well.

In the post-SWM conversation. Sev does not deny any of her accusations about his friends or their intentions. Her parting shot is "But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?"

So I think, from her point of view in that point of the relationship, her best friend has become involved with future Death Eaters who are evil people (this is how she characterizes Mulciber and Avery's humor) and is prejudiced against people like her despite their friendship. Further, this was a concern that had been growing for some time, since it is refrenced as well in the earlier memory, and a concern Sev has seemed to be brushing off despite her repreated attempts to discuss it with him.

I think she did honestly believe what she accused him of, and felt she could not excuse it any more even for their old friendship. I consider that it was an entirely justified decision, and does not necessarily even mean she stopped caring for Sev right there. She may have hoped showing just how seriosly she felt about the problems she saw would bring him to his senses - true friends need to let their friends know when they are doing something that might mess up their whole lives, after all.


More peculative, but I am less sure that she was 100% correct. Sev's reason for ignoring her lecture on Mulciber and Avery in the earlier conversation was that he was still basking in the glow of hearing her call James a 'toerag'. It is clear to me that Sev already viewed him as a potential rival for Lily's romantic interest.

In the post SWM apology attempt, I think Lily sees it as damning that Sev does not deny his intention to become a Death Eater. However, in her vehemence, she does not let him complete a single sentence relevant to the topic under discussion. And he is described as 'struggling to speak'. I speculate that in his desperation, he may have been considering a declaration of his romantic interest in her, and this is why he did not address her concerns directly, he was nerving himself and trying to find the right introduction for what he wanted to say.


Yes I so agree. I think that her dislike of his friends is shown here because with that one comment, Severus illustrates just how deep he has gotten into that Death Eater thinking and it is this that Lily dislikes. I agree too that I think he was about to (and perhaps Lily was looking for him to) confess his feelings and proclaim that is his reason for holding her in a different light from others.

I think that the "toerag" point you bring up is very interesting as well because of Severus' reaction to it. It instantly shows him as a typical boy happy to hear the one he loves declare he dislike for the boy he sees as his rival. It paints a picture of how threatened he felt and how jealous he was of anyone who could come between them whether it be James or anyone else. I do believe this could even be extended to his Death Eater friends, in that, if Lily were to have said that she would stay if he got rid of them, I think he would have. I think it was Lily or nothing for him, as is illustrated by his lack of romatic life outside of Lily. It is because of this that I think he would have forsaken his friends or any one else who came between them.

Sorry for going back so far, but between both Snape threads, it takes about 2 hours to catch up before I can post :DBut such a day changes a life. My first love, and to this day the strongest infatuation I ever felt, was back in high school, and I always identified with Snape because my school days seemed so much like his. I was a greasy-haired geek in school with no friends, no money nor looks. And I fell - hard - for a stunning beauty whom everyone found intelligent, gracious, and charming. She thought I was a really nice guy and we were friends. For a time, that was enough, because she was dating a football player and - well - I was just a geek with nothing to offer.

But one day, I worked up the courage to tell her how I felt about her. I told her that I loved her, always had from the moment I had first seen her, and I had to tell her.

Big mistake.

She told me what she always had, that I was a "great guy", "super nice", all the things teen-age girls tell a boy when they want to shoot him down, but do it politely. She made it clear there would never be an 'us'.

When she walked away, I knew that I would never have her, indeed I never had a chance. More than thirty years later, I can still remember that day, how she looked, how she smelled, and it's like a knife in the chest.

Oh yeah, I can relate to Severus. And Ms. Rowling proved her skill in telling the story so well.I too can relate to Snape personally, but from the other side of the gender fence. Oddly enough my first love looked somewhat like Snape. Long hair (but not greasy) and a slightly hooked nose. BUT he was the popular one. There was a group of us that hung around together, but the two of us were the closest. Same sense of humour, same likes, and intersts etc. When it came to 'dating' though, I was usually the odd one out. I could never understand the choices he made when chosing a girlfriend, because they were SO opposite. I always felt 'what's wrong with me' I'm not THAT horrible looking, and WE had so much in common. I never had the courage to tell him how I felt. Nobody else ever knew how I felt about him either. Yet to this day almost 30 years later, everytime I see him I STILL get a little weak in the knees and get that funny little flip in the pit of my stomach.

So I too can understand how Snapes first love affected him so completely. Mine had the same affect on me.

Ironically, I've had long term relationships since but have never married either.

Whoa, I am so smart! Lol, jk. That page alone confirms to my satisfaction that Snape is a very brave man. Certainly worthy of Lily’s love, even if he never got it.

Thanks.

I agree Tonks. I think had Lily forgave Snape, he wouldn't have become a death eater. It is so sad to reread the Prince's Tale because you can see in every scene that passes how he gets flustered or messes up his chances.

I think Lily was just waiting for Snape to express his feelings. Once she saw that he was going down the wrong path she couldn't wait no longer.

I agree Tonks. I think had Lily forgave Snape, he wouldn't have become a death eater. It is so sad to reread the Prince's Tale because you can see in every scene that passes how he gets flustered or messes up his chances.

I think Lily was just waiting for Snape to express his feelings. Once she saw that he was going down the wrong path she couldn't wait no longer.

Why do you think that, though? It sounds as if you're suggesting Lily was in love with Snape? I'm thinking not. He described them as "friends... best friends," so where did the romantic bit creep in?

Moreover, in one of those memories, didn't Lily accuse him of not being able to wait until he could join You-Know-Who? It seems to me that Snape had cast the dye of his future long before he called her "Mudblood" and effectively ended their friendship. James, Sirius, and Lupin recognized how caught up Snape was in the dark arts almost from the start of their years at Hogwarts. It's a bit much to think she missed all that. Indeed, her own remarks illustrated just how much she did know - and the fact that she was having to apologize for just being pals with him.

I think what killed the relationship for Lily was when Severus called her a mudblood. He was already hanging around the future deatheaters, who though the worst of her. He probably never defended her to them, they had no idea how she felt about him. But the fact that he let that little phrase slip meant he let out his true feelings about anyone else like her.

It was bad enough that he wouldn't do something about the things they said, but now he was saying them as well. It is in the moments of emotional stress that people show their true colors, and his were not very appealing.

If she had forgiven him, he might have turned the other direction, but I think this was her point of no return. She didnt hate him, but she did despise him. She told him as much - the things James did may have been mean, but they were not done out of hate. Even if he had professed his love for her as an individual, she knew he had contempt for everything about her, including her family.

Why do you think that, though? It sounds as if you're suggesting Lily was in love with Snape? I'm thinking not. He described them as "friends... best friends," so where did the romantic bit creep in?

I think she had to know Snape had romantic feelings for her, based on their earlier conversation in which Snape criticizes James and blurts out his opinion that James 'fancies' Lily.

In that light, arguably, "But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?" could have been intended to elicit an admission of his interest. I don't have a firm opinion on the subject of her feelings myself, but I can see where the idea is coming from.

Why do you think that, though? It sounds as if you're suggesting Lily was in love with Snape? I'm thinking not. He described them as "friends... best friends," so where did the romantic bit creep in?

Moreover, in one of those memories, didn't Lily accuse him of not being able to wait until he could join You-Know-Who? It seems to me that Snape had cast the dye of his future long before he called her "Mudblood" and effectively ended their friendship. James, Sirius, and Lupin recognized how caught up Snape was in the dark arts almost from the start of their years at Hogwarts. It's a bit much to think she missed all that. Indeed, her own remarks illustrated just how much she did know - and the fact that she was having to apologize for just being pals with him.

I am not suggesting that they were in love at all. I only think it was a possibility if not for Snape's bad choices. I think had Lily forgiven Snape he may not have joined the death eaters because she seemed to be the only good thing in his life. Snape was willing to sleep outside of the Gryffindor common room on the floor. Risk his reputation with his own house as well as ridicule had James and Sirius walked out and saw him laying there. I think once Lily turned her back on Snape, he fell right in deeper with the death eaters, since the only good influence in his life was now gone.

I am not suggesting that they were in love at all. I only think it was a possibility if not for Snape's bad choices. I think had Lily forgiven Snape he may not have joined the death eaters because she seemed to be the only good thing in his life. Snape was willing to sleep outside of the Gryffindor common room on the floor. Risk his reputation with his own house as well as ridicule had James and Sirius walked out and saw him laying there. I think once Lily turned her back on Snape, he fell right in deeper with the death eaters, since the only good influence in his life was now gone.

That's one possibility but I think Snape went with the Death Eaters because he thought their lack of or lack of accepting love or maybe even for the fact that they were focused on other things, would help him get over Lily.

That's one possibility but I think Snape went with the Death Eaters because he thought their lack of or lack of accepting love or maybe even for the fact that they were focused on other things, would help him get over Lily.

Thats a good possiblity too. I think Snape probably had several reasons for becoming a death eater. Being rejected, acceptance, recognition and a familial feeling. Snape came from neglected household, these type of children are usually starved for love so Snape going to the death eaters which is very much like a gang is no surprise for me. Once the last and maybe only love was out of his life (Lily) I think that was just the last straw.

I think that Lily MUST have known that Snape was interested in her. Maybe she didn't think he was in love with her (most people don't even know what love is, let alone recognize it), but she would have to be blind to miss some of the heavier "anvils".

Thats a good possiblity too. I think Snape probably had several reasons for becoming a death eater. Being rejected, acceptance, recognition and a familial feeling. Snape came from neglected household, these type of children are usually craved for love so Snape going to the death eaters which is very much like a gang is no surprise for me. Once the last and maybe only love was out of his life (Lily) I think that was just the last straw.

Yeah, he just wanted to forget, to push it out of his mind, It hurt too much.

I think that Lily MUST have known that Snape was interested in her. Maybe she didn't think he was in love with her (most people don't even know what love is, let alone recognize it), but she would have to be blind to miss some of the heavier "anvils".

You would be surprised what people miss when they just don't see someone that way.

You would be surprised what people miss when they just don't see someone that way.

Possibly, but Lily seems too smart and perceptive to NOT recognize an obvious attraction, even if she ignored it or didn't want to believe it.

This is an argument that can go in circles though...

I wonder if Snape overreacted to Harry's calling him coward in HBP (and it felt like hot pain, the way he yelled and slapped Harry with fire) also because he felt like a coward for never risking to reveal his feelings to Lily.

Lily must have known Snape "wanted to be more than friends" :whistle: Which is why she ended the friendship, I think, because she didn't want to get involved with his err...:err: deatheater friends. In response to Magic Lantern, I think Snape felt that he was a coward in his choices. He's probably been tortured by thoughts like What if I had given up my other friends when she asked me? And you kind of wonder where it could have gone?? I feel bad for Snape now; it's obvious he was obsessed with Lily. But, if he had made the right choices, we'd have no Harry Potter.

I wonder if Snape overreacted to Harry's calling him coward in HBP (and it felt like hot pain, the way he yelled and slapped Harry with fire) also because he felt like a coward for never risking to reveal his feelings to Lily.

That's an interesting take on it. I always thought that it was just because Harry had no idea of the kind of undertaking Snape had to take regarding Dumbledore's pre-planned death, but it could have had something to do with Lily as well. After all, we can most likely safely assume that seeing Harry (and his eyes) almost always made Snape think of Lily.

Snape's love for Lily really explains a lot of his outbursts throughout the series. He gets really touchy whenever anything relating to the Mauraders or that time period when he was in school comes up. One can argue it's because of the bullying he was put through, but it just makes it so much more understandable when you think that his one and only love was, in his mind, taken from him by James - as well as his own mistakes.

I wonder if Snape overreacted to Harry's calling him coward in HBP (and it felt like hot pain, the way he yelled and slapped Harry with fire) also because he felt like a coward for never risking to reveal his feelings to Lily.

I definitley think Snape overreacted and he did for two reasons.

Firstly, it probably hurt to hear someone call him a coward because over the years either people had told him he was a coward or like you said, he felt like a coward.

Secondly, he was called a coward but it was probably one of the most bravest things he did to kill Dumbledore when he didn't want to.

...After all, we can most likely safely assume that seeing Harry (and his eyes) almost always made Snape think of Lily.

What torture it must have been for Snape! No wonder he never liked Harry. Harry was like a double sided sword; Snape loved him for his mother, but loathed him for his father. To see her eyes on his face! Ouch!

...Snape's love for Lily really explains a lot of his outbursts throughout the series. He gets really touchy whenever anything relating to the Mauraders or that time period when he was in school comes up. One can argue it's because of the bullying he was put through, but it just makes it so much more understandable when you think that his one and only love was, in his mind, taken from him by James - as well as his own mistakes.

In Snape's mind, he was solely responsible for her death. He was the one who told Voldemort about the prophecy which ultimately led to the killing of the only person he ever loved. Of course, he hadn't known the prophecy meant Lily's son. But because she died and he lived he felt he had a debt to pay. All those times he saved Harry's life and said it was because Harry's father had saved his, he was probably only doing it for Lily, trying to make it up to her and help her only child. Even if it wasn't his child.

What torture it must have been for Snape! No wonder he never liked Harry. Harry was like a double sided sword; Snape loved him for his mother, but loathed him for his father. To see her eyes on his face! Ouch!

Ouch indeed!



In Snape's mind, he was solely responsible for her death. He was the one who told Voldemort about the prophecy which ultimately led to the killing of the only person he ever loved. Of course, he hadn't known the prophecy meant Lily's son. But because she died and he lived he felt he had a debt to pay. All those times he saved Harry's life and said it was because Harry's father had saved his, he was probably only doing it for Lily, trying to make it up to her and help her only child. Even if it wasn't his child.

I see it as a sort of double blow. While she lived, he lost out on Lily to James, his biggest rival.

Then in an even stronger blow he betrayed her by giving information to Voldemort, falsely thinking that Voldemort would spare her life. How ignorant poor Snape was of the Dark Lord's inability to care about anyone other than himself!

Then in an even stronger blow he betrayed her by giving information to Voldemort, falsely thinking that Voldemort would spare her life. How ignorant poor Snape was of the Dark Lord's inability to care about anyone other than himself!

Well, I don't think he thought Voldemort would spare her life. He didn't even think the prophecy had anything to do with Lily. He told Voldemort automatically probably because he wanted to get on the Dark Lord's good side. That's the sad part.

I think that Lily MUST have known that Snape was interested in her. Maybe she didn't think he was in love with her (most people don't even know what love is, let alone recognize it), but she would have to be blind to miss some of the heavier "anvils".

:tu: I agree with you. She must have noticed when he told her that James fancies her. It said that she blushed under the intensity of his gaze. I think she realised then... that's why she said the thing about James and that's why she blushed. She maybe thought...oh he has it heavy... it maybe scared her. James crush was much more playful...Snape with all that intensity... It would scare any normal fourteen year old, especailly when they don't return the feelings.

Well, I don't think he thought Voldemort would spare her life. He didn't even think the prophecy had anything to do with Lily. He told Voldemort automatically probably because he wanted to get on the Dark Lord's good side. That's the sad part.

You sure? I interpreted it differently. I know Snape had no idea whom the prophecy referred to, but after he found out I inferred from his conversation with Dumbledore that he pleaded for Voldemort to spare her. He may not have cared about James or Harry but there must have been at least the slightest bit of him that thought Voldemort might actually come through with his promise.

Although after he finds out Lily was dead, he turns to thinking Dumbledore would have spared her. His thoughts are rather confusing, but I'd have to imagine that they would be in his twisted, sad world.

I'm sure someone has already said this, but I just realized that there have been so many references to Snape looking directly into Harry's eyes, I figure that only a very few times while he was doing it was because he was trying to use Occlumency. I'm assuming he was doing it otherwise to look at the eyes that he remembered.

I think that's why the "Lily's eyes are very important" thing kept being mentioned by JK.


ALSO I think that Dumbledore's comment on how Harry has her eyes was a bit of a "try looking into his eyes and then betray me and sacrifice him" kind of thing. I didn't word that as well as I had liked, but I hope you get the gist.

It was a good reason why Dumbledore trusted Snape. I guess i was expecting something more magical binding, or something of the like.. haha

I'm sure someone has already said this, but I just realized that there have been so many references to Snape looking directly into Harry's eyes, I figure that only a very few times while he was doing it was because he was trying to use Occlumency. I'm assuming he was doing it otherwise to look at the eyes that he remembered.

I think that's why the "Lily's eyes are very important" thing kept being mentioned by JK.

After OOTP I realised there were several times when Harry looked into Snape eyes to prove he is not lying in PS/SS, COS, POA, GOF. Usually Snape lets him off. Especially in COS when he knew Harry threw the firecracker and Harry himself believes he knew, yet he does nothing. I think it was because he was seeing Lilys eyes looking back at him and found it difficult to punish Harry at the moment.

You could think of the Doe Patronus as a magical 'proof' of his sincerity, I suppose. :)

After OOTP I realised there were several times when Harry looked into Snape eyes to prove he is not lying in PS/SS, COS, POA, GOF. Usually Snape lets him off. Especially in COS when he knew Harry threw the firecracker and Harry himself believes he knew, yet he does nothing. I think it was because he was seeing Lilys eyes looking back at him and found it difficult to punish Harry at the moment.

Man! There's SO many things that I realize now. Even though after OotP I pretty much knew that Snape was in love with Lily there were things in the earlier books that I didn't remember. Such little things that I passed over.

You sure? I interpreted it differently. I know Snape had no idea whom the prophecy referred to, but after he found out I inferred from his conversation with Dumbledore that he pleaded for Voldemort to spare her. He may not have cared about James or Harry but there must have been at least the slightest bit of him that thought Voldemort might actually come through with his promise.

Although after he finds out Lily was dead, he turns to thinking Dumbledore would have spared her. His thoughts are rather confusing, but I'd have to imagine that they would be in his twisted, sad world.


Here's the conversation:

"The- the prophecy...the prediction...Trelawney..."

"Ah, yes, " said Dumbledore. "How much did you relay to Lord Voldemort?"

"Everything- everything I heard!" said Snape. "That is why- it is for that reason- he thinks it means Lily Evans!"

"The prophecy did not refer to a woman," said Dumbledore. "It spoke of a boy born at the end of July-"

"You know what I mean!" He thinks it means her son, he is going to hunt her down-kill them all-"

"If she means so much to you," said Dumbledore, "surely Lord Voldemort will spare her? Could you not ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son?"

"I have- I have asked him-"

Well, he did plead for her, but first when he relayed the info, he did not relay it thinking that Voldemort would spare her. After he relayed it, Voldemort told him he thought it was Lily's family. Then he pleaded for her life. He did not go to Voldemort with the info thinking "I know it means Lily's family but he will spare her so i'll tell him anyways". He found out it meant her after. That's what I meant.

You're right, and I agree. I think I used a poor choice of wording back there.

Snape wouldn't have known while he was giving Voldemort that information that he betrayed Lily. He realized the full consequences of what he had done after it was too late, and desperately tried to undo his dreadful mistake. Voldemort not sparing Lily drove Snape over to fight against him, of course.

That's an interesting question. What would have happened had Voldemort spared her life?

Here's the conversation:

"The- the prophecy...the prediction...Trelawney..."

"Ah, yes, " said Dumbledore. "How much did you relay to Lord Voldemort?"

"Everything- everything I heard!" said Snape. "That is why- it is for that reason- he thinks it means Lily Evans!"

"The prophecy did not refer to a woman," said Dumbledore. "It spoke of a boy born at the end of July-"

"You know what I mean!" He thinks it means her son, he is going to hunt her down-kill them all-"

"If she means so much to you," said Dumbledore, "surely Lord Voldemort will spare her? Could you not ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son?"

"I have- I have asked him-"

Well, he did plead for her, but first when he relayed the info, he did not relay it thinking that Voldemort would spare her. After he relayed it, Voldemort told him he thought it was Lily's family. Then he pleaded for her life. He did not go to Voldemort with the info thinking "I know it means Lily's family but he will spare her so i'll tell him anyways". He found out it meant her after. That's what I meant. Voldemort probably got special pleasure knowing how Snape was going to lose his mudblood love *grimace* I think Snape knew the whole way through that there was no chance he would spare her, but he didn't want to accept that, so he did all he could, short of hanging of Voldemorts and and tackling him.:lol:

That's an interesting question. What would have happened had Voldemort spared her life?

Harry would have died. Her husband would have died. Face it, she'd probably kill herself or get herself killed trying to stop Voldemort. Snape had no hope at all even if he had spared her.

You're right, and I agree. I think I used a poor choice of wording back there.

Snape wouldn't have known while he was giving Voldemort that information that he betrayed Lily. He realized the full consequences of what he had done after it was too late, and desperately tried to undo his dreadful mistake. Voldemort not sparing Lily drove Snape over to fight against him, of course.

That's an interesting question. What would have happened had Voldemort spared her life?

Harry would have died. Simple as that. I hate to say but i can see some good in Lily dieing for her son and the fact that Voldemort didn't spare her.

Harry would have died. Simple as that. I hate to say but i can see some good in Lily dieing for her son and the fact that Voldemort didn't spare her.

:lol:There's no way it could have gone another way. Lily's death was too important to the plot. It all comes around to people dying for Harry. And Snape, who wasn't even invited to the wedding could have been... There are too many could have beens. It's only great the way it is.

Why are we trying to re-write the book? Lily dying for Harry is one of the major plot points of a superb series. Add to that Snape loving Lily and all the sacrifices he made, and we have one of the best series of books in more than a generation!

Why are we trying to re-write the book? Lily dying for Harry is one of the major plot points of a superb series. Add to that Snape loving Lily and all the sacrifices he made, and we have one of the best series of books in more than a generation!


Amen. (though I'm not very religious)

Thank you nutty. I think the relationship, such as it was, is the important thing to look at. How Snape had loved Lily for most of his life, made major mistakes, including not being willing to turn his back on the dark arts for her and not expressing his feelings for her. Yet he spent 16+ years trying to atone for those mistakes, which is what helped Harry finish the job.

The relationship between Lily nad Snape is yes surprising but also fits. I didnt think that they knew eachother even before hogwarts...(that was very surprising) but i, like everyone, knew that lily had something to do with the whole Dumbledore/Snape/Harry thing.

it was kinda sad, when i read it and when Snape died... he didsnt die a hero's death but wwe know now that he was Dumbledore's man till the end and he did because of Lily... now i understand why Snape told Harry to look at him before he died...in order to look into Lily's eyes for the last time.

I would disagree with this interpretation. First of all it must be remembered that there is an age difference between the two occurances. Petunia was her sister and she was eleven years old. If i was eleven and my sister, who i loved and cherished, called me a 'freak' not in some petty arguement but as a dead serious insult aimed to hurt and maime, i'd be pretty upset too, maybe more shocked than upset.

However when Snape calles her a 'mudblood' she's grown up a bit. She lets it hurt on the inside without letting it show too much on the outside. And once again i think there's an element of shock involved. Also i'm sure it wasn't entirely unexpected. I'm sure Lily regarded it as only a matter of time before Snape started to see her as he saw everyone else from muggle parents, as a mudblood.

IMO Lily was dreadfully hurt by Snape's comment. And the little twitch in her expression to James is also explainable. JK said that Lily was attracted to James even before the Snape incident. Therefore in this particular encounter she is extremely conflicted. Here, the boy she is crushing on is defending her, so she can't be completely furious with him. But at the same time, he's humiliating her good friend, so she is furious with him. And her good friend just insulted her in the sharpest way, so she isn't entirely ready to defend Snape. I think as much as it was a turning point in Snape's life, it was one for Lily too.

That's my interpretation of Snape's worst memory.

As much as I want to disagree with you, I can't :P. In case you didn't guess Sev was my fav character.

As a sidepoint however inexusable Snape's reaction was, I feel it was somewhat mitigated in the circumstances and i think Lily would have understood that. Him calling her a mudblood was a composite as opposed to a sufficient cause to the rupturing of their friendship i.e. it was a long time coming. At the time he was already humiliated and having the ego of a male probably didn't want Lily to see him such. Needing the girl he was smitten by to come to his defense merely jabbed at that which was already bruised. I can see how in his head 'I don't need help from filthy little mudbloods like her!' would sound more like a combination of bravado (verbally sizing up James) and a cry of frustration (at having Lily see him vulnerable and at the mercy of his competition).

it was kinda sad, when i read it and when Snape died... he didsnt die a hero's death but wwe know now that he was Dumbledore's man till the end and he did because of Lily... now i understand why Snape told Harry to look at him before he died...in order to look into Lily's eyes for the last time.

That was an utterly poignant scene. It just shows the love he has for Lily after all those years. I also loved how this love was portrayed in this scene:

“But this is touching, Severus,” said Dumbledore seriously. “Have you grown to care for the boy, after all?”

“For him?” shouted Snape. “Expecto Patronum!”

From the tip of his wand burst the silver doe. She landed on the office floor, bounded once across the office, and soared out of the window. Dumbledore watched her fly away, and as her silvery glow faded he turned back to Snape, and his eyes were full of tears.

“After all this time?”

“Always,” said Snape.

The revelation about Lily and Snape was indeed a surprise. But it clearly explained the reason why Snape's loyalties lie with Dumbledore.

As much as I want to disagree with you, I can't :P. In case you didn't guess Sev was my fav character.

As a sidepoint however inexusable Snape's reaction was, I feel it was somewhat mitigated in the circumstances and i think Lily would have understood that. Him calling her a mudblood was a composite as opposed to a sufficient cause to the rupturing of their friendship i.e. it was a long time coming. At the time he was already humiliated and having the ego of a male probably didn't want Lily to see him such. Needing the girl he was smitten by to come to his defense merely jabbed at that which was already bruised. I can see how in his head 'I don't need help from filthy little mudbloods like her!' would sound more like a combination of bravado (verbally sizing up James) and a cry of frustration (at having Lily see him vulnerable and at the mercy of his competition).

I see your point, but Lily had also been sticking up for Snape for years. None of her friends understood what she saw in Snape. How could she defend him to her own friends particularly after such a public insult? Additionally, a term like Mudblood, to me, still wouldn't be forgivable even if it were in the form of "verbally sizing up James". I see it as the equivalent to the N word, and particularly from someone like Snape who has a full understanding of what it actually means.

Here's the conversation:

Well, he did plead for her, but first when he relayed the info, he did not relay it thinking that Voldemort would spare her. After he relayed it, Voldemort told him he thought it was Lily's family. Then he pleaded for her life. He did not go to Voldemort with the info thinking "I know it means Lily's family but he will spare her so i'll tell him anyways". He found out it meant her after. That's what I meant.

What is interesting in that Dumbledore/Snape discussion is that Snape indeed never thought Voldemort would spared her life. If he truly believed Voldemort 'd kept his word for sparing her, he would not go to seek for Dumbledore's help.

He was at that time ready to do anything in his powers to rescue her and erase his mistake. I think we can compare this scene with the post SWM.

As someone already said, Snape was putting his dignity and his reputation in danger by threatening to sleep in front of the Griffindor room... for a muggleborn girl! If his Slytherin friends had learnt that, it could have been terrible results for Snape. However, Snape did it wrong and Lily shut her door. He did not give up the dark arts for her.

When he went for Dumbledore's help, de facto he betrayed Voldemort. He endangered his reputation, his life by looking for the only person Voldemort ever feared. But this time, it was a question of life and death. This time, he finally turn his back totally to Voldemort, which he was not able to do in post SWM.

I wonder if Lily and James had a girl instead of a boy if Snape would have liked the girl better. Personaly, I think the girl would've been Snape's favorite.

i thought it was a nice twist. i really liked that idea. i had always liked snape because you could never tell whether he was good or bad. i am glad that in the end we can say that he was a good guy. i think their friendship just outgrew eachother as many do.

What is interesting in that Dumbledore/Snape discussion is that Snape indeed never thought Voldemort would spared her life. If he truly believed Voldemort 'd kept his word for sparing her, he would not go to seek for Dumbledore's help.

We should remember that Voldemort would have spared Lily if she'd got out the way though. He says she didn't have to die. Thinking about it, if it hadn't been for Snape's intervention then she wouldn't have been able to choose to die, since Voldemort would have killed her outright, then Harry would never have survived.

I wonder if Lily and James had a girl instead of a boy if Snape would have liked the girl better. Personaly, I think the girl would've been Snape's favorite.


Probably, if Lily and James had had a girl, it would be looked more like its mother, reason why Snape had not doubted so much in protecting her.
Watching Harry daily remembering James, the man he hated for having finished married with his loved and having the son that he could have had with Lily.

i am sure many other people already noticed this but i will say it anyway, snapes last words to harry were "look at me" this was so he would see lillys eyes.

Yea right; I’m sorry, the plot that Snape and Lilly were childhood friends and lovers at a distance when at Hogwarts, I think had more to do with :grumble: appease the film maker’s, then following logically to a conclusion an on going plot sequence from within the HP books.

I think the relationship also explains why Lily was so good at potions. Or is that why Snape is so good at potions?




I agree that would have been why Professor Slughorn thought that Lily was so good at potions - there is lots of evidence that Snape was extremely talented {for example, he modified the procedures in his potions book, he made the wolfbane potion for Lupin each month so well that he suffered limited effects and so on}. When I read the Prince's Tale, I thought it would have been topped off by showing Lily and Snape in a Potions class together, with Snape telling her different instructions to the one in text book.

I am not suggesting that they were in love at all. I only think it was a possibility if not for Snape's bad choices. I think had Lily forgiven Snape he may not have joined the death eaters because she seemed to be the only good thing in his life. Snape was willing to sleep outside of the Gryffindor common room on the floor. Risk his reputation with his own house as well as ridicule had James and Sirius walked out and saw him laying there. I think once Lily turned her back on Snape, he fell right in deeper with the death eaters, since the only good influence in his life was now gone.

I have a bit a trouble accepting that explanation, though. SWM occurred during OWLs in their fifth year. Snape had been associating with his future death eater pals for five years by then and Lily knew it. She spoke to him about how much she disliked them. Sirius described Snape's fascination with the dark arts in the cave outside Hogsmeade in GoF.

I think she had to know Snape had romantic feelings for her, based on their earlier conversation in which Snape criticizes James and blurts out his opinion that James 'fancies' Lily.

In that light, arguably, "But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?" could have been intended to elicit an admission of his interest.

I don't see Lily as the type of woman to play coy with a man. She was very straightforward about her feelings and what she liked and disliked. Her pal Snape was deeply unpopular at Hogwarts - probably in large part because of the people he hung around with and the way he liked to jinx people - and I don't see Lily as having missed that fact. I think she continued to be his pal out of loyalty, but she never had any romantic interest in him. Honestly, when I read that chapter the first thing that crossed my mind was the song "What a Fool Believes" - as in what a fool believes, he sees.

I had previously read some theories and fan fiction abut how Snape had loved Lilly so the idea wasn't completley surprising to me. Actually, even if I hadn't made myself prepared for anything before reading this book, I wouldn't have been surprised. It just made a lot for sense to me for Snape to love Lilly. It explained the reason he had done what he did in the previous books.

I don't see Lily as the type of woman to play coy with a man. She was very straightforward about her feelings and what she liked and disliked. Her pal Snape was deeply unpopular at Hogwarts - probably in large part because of the people he hung around with and the way he liked to jinx people - and I don't see Lily as having missed that fact. I think she continued to be his pal out of loyalty, but she never had any romantic interest in him. Honestly, when I read that chapter the first thing that crossed my mind was the song "What a Fool Believes" - as in what a fool believes, he sees.

I agree with you. Severus was the first person who say to Lily that she was a witch. She discovered a new world thanks to Severus, they were friends since they were children. But when they arrived at Hogwarts, she realized that Snape followed a different path (magically talking) I also think that she continued being pals because of their history together, out of loyalty.
As woman I can say that I understand why she was feeling attracted by James and his friends (in addition they were in the same side, not like Severus) What I do not know is whether Snape started showing interest for the Dark Arts due to the rejection of Lily or if it was his interest for them what did that Lily was never interested for him.

Yea right; I’m sorry, the plot that Snape and Lilly were childhood friends and lovers at a distance when at Hogwarts, I think had more to do with :grumble: appease the film maker’s, then following logically to a conclusion an on going plot sequence from within the HP books.



I'm sorry, but I don't think that's true. JKR would never compromise her writing for the sake of making a good movie. Her concern was for making good books! To suggest otherwise, i think, is a disservice to JKR

Yea right; I’m sorry, the plot that Snape and Lilly were childhood friends and lovers at a distance when at Hogwarts, I think had more to do with :grumble: appease the film maker’s, then following logically to a conclusion an on going plot sequence from within the HP books.

There's no way it could have been put in for the movie. Sure it would make a good movie but it made an even better book. And it did fit in logically.

Because Snape wanted to save Lily he gave all his allegiance to Dumbledore. Because he was a Death Eater they had an insider that gave info on Voldemort. Then when it was time for someone to "kill" Dumbledore Snape did it. It might have even been Snapes work that kept Harry alive a little bit longer. Basically because of Snapes allegiance to Dumbledore Harry got a lot of help and they were able to defeat Voldemort easier. And it all started with Snape wanting to save Lily so..... This fit. It was not for the filmakers.

IWhat I do not know is whether Snape started showing interest for the Dark Arts due to the rejection of Lily or if it was his interest for them what did that Lily was never interested for him.

Sirius told us in GoF that Snape arrived at Hogwarts knowing more jinxes than the seventh years. I took that to mean he began hurling them very early in his career at Hogwarts.

Snape struck me as a stalker from a very early age. He certainly stalked Lily as a child. We also know he stalked James, Sirius, Peter, and Remus while at Hogwarts. Even the bit about him sleeping in the hall outside strikes me as encroaching on her privacy.

Who on earth could love a stalker? :wow:

Snape struck me as a stalker from a very early age. He certainly stalked Lily as a child.
Honestly, in that case a lot of kids are stalkers. Heck, I was a stalker in that case! Kids like sneaking around and eavesdropping. I remember after the movie Harriet and the Spy came out sometime in the 90's I considered myself quite a good sneaker and would sneak up on people's conversations and write them down! :lol:

But yeah, if I were to see a 9 year old hiding behind a couple of bushes looking at a couple of girls I wouldn't think, "OMG STALKER!"

Anyway, I think we should take Sirius' words with a grain of salt. I'm sure he knew some spells and such but Sirius made it seem like he was doing it without provacation when we know that James was throwing hexes around too (albeit, apparently not dark ones but still cursing random kids which I, for some reason, don't see Snape doing).

BUT BACK TO LILY, I think that him willing to sleep in the hall was just heart breakingly desperate. They considered each other best friends and she was really, deep down, all Snape had so of course he was going to do anything to get her to talk to him/hear him out. I'd be disappointed if he didn't do anything.

Who on earth could love a stalker?
Apparently SOMEBODY loved Snape according to JKR. I was always inclined to believe it may have been his mother but I can also see Lily loving Snape as a friend.

Anyway, I think we should take Sirius' words with a grain of salt. I'm sure he knew some spells and such but Sirius made it seem like he was doing it without provacation when we know that James was throwing hexes around too (albeit, apparently not dark ones but still cursing random kids which I, for some reason, don't see Snape doing).
I agree. I don't think that Sirius was an impartial observer when it came to Snape. Given that Lily did not like James and would not date him (despite the fact that she was attracted to him) because he was a bullying toerag, it seems unlikely that she would have remained friends with Severus for as long as she did if he was throwing Dark curses around indiscriminately, so if Snape knew a lot of Dark curses he wasn't using them to bully others. Lily is no fool, and she was never in love with Severus as she was with James, so I see no reason to doubt her judgement of Severus, but I see plenty of reasons to doubt Sirius's. Lily had her own friends and did not "need" Severus to be her friend. By fifth year Severus had obviously developed his interest in the dark arts to an extent that Lily found unacceptable, and had developed friendships within his own house that worried her. Consequently she ended the friendship. I see Sev's slide to the Dark side as gradual as he moved up the school.

ETA:Who on earth could love a stalker? I happen to believe all people are lovable.

When we love somebody we think we can change him/her. But I think that this is not the matter, because in my opinion Lily never loved Severus. It's beautiful? to think that Lily an Severus loved one another and that the Dark Magic broke the relationship and she chose the good way. But we can't mistake love with friendship. It's easier to broke a friendship, like Lily did, than forget that you're in love with someone. This is way Snape never forgot Lily and agreed to protect Harry.

I'm sorry, but I don't think that's true. JKR would never compromise her writing for the sake of making a good movie. Her concern was for making good books! To suggest otherwise, i think, is a disservice to JKR

nicely said....but i have to admit that i never believed in the theories leading to their relationship before

but the "relationship" was only one way right???

I'm sorry, but I don't think that's true. JKR would never compromise her writing for the sake of making a good movie. Her concern was for making good books! To suggest otherwise, i think, is a disservice to JKR


Completely agree. Moreover, in the 5 movies Snape hasn't got much protagonism, has he? Sometimes I think that this fact will make a bit difficult to give him much protagonism in 6 and 7 movie.

Completely agree. Moreover, in the 5 movies Snape hasn't got much protagonism, has he? Sometimes I think that this fact will make a bit difficult to give him much protagonism in 6 and 7 movie.

Ah, but I think that when it comes to movies, people tend to believe the most absurd thing than the most natural. I think that they could make Snape look like a complete and total *** and everyone will hate him, but the moment they show that he loved Lily, people will lap it up. In movies it seems that when true love is involved, anything is believable.

Sirius told us in GoF that Snape arrived at Hogwarts knowing more jinxes than the seventh years. I took that to mean he began hurling them very early in his career at Hogwarts.

Snape struck me as a stalker from a very early age. He certainly stalked Lily as a child. We also know he stalked James, Sirius, Peter, and Remus while at Hogwarts. Even the bit about him sleeping in the hall outside strikes me as encroaching on her privacy.

Who on earth could love a stalker? :wow:
Snape didn't have the Marauder's Map, which strikes me as more of a surveillance device than anything Snape had at his disposal. Harry watched Ginny's "dot" on the map, and we can figure that James also watched Lily that way.

Snape also didn't have the Invisibility Cloak, but James did.

My feeling is that Snape was hiding in the bushes as a child because he was shy, and he didn't know what to say. And the way it worked out, he felt he said the wrong thing. I pity that boy, myself. :( He had a hard life as a child, and just wanted a friend, and he found a great one who changed his life, though his feelings caused him great unhappiness later.

I find the whole thing about Snape coming out of the hedge and meeting Lily to be alot like the C.S. Lewis book "The Silver Chair," in which Eustace Scrubb meets Jill Pole and then they hide in a hedge from some kids who are coming to beat them up. The hedge leads them to Narnia. Eustace also explains Narnia to Jill. One time, JKR said she liked the character of Eustace, who is also a bullied child.

In "Voyage of the Dawn Treader," Eustace became a dragon who had a painful bracelet on his arm, and he would cry at night because he wanted to go back to being human. Aslan, who is like the Dumbledore figure, helps him become human again.

Edited to change the title of one of the books - I had written Prince Caspian instead of Silver Chair. :)

My feeling is that Snape was hiding in the bushes as a child because he was shy, and he didn't know what to say. And the way it worked out, he felt he said the wrong thing. I pity that boy, myself. He had a hard life as a child, and just wanted a friend, and he found a great one who changed his life, though his feelings caused him great unhappiness later.
Exactly :nods:

I was so surprised by the Snape/Lily ship. I had been adament that it wouldn't happen even though loads of people were saying it. I thought they were delusional. I was wrong. Snape and Lily were the only non-Muggles in the area why not be friends. He obviously liked her and it was very sweet bit to read.

Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts?
Simple. Because she still wanted to be friends with him. But it did put a dent in their friendship. I'd say it was why they started to grow apart; that and Snape calling her a Mudblood, despite him assuring her earlier on that it "didn't matter". That would have hurt. And it certainly couldn't have been helped by their House rivalries. If they weren't sorted into Houses so early that their relationship might have had a chance. But her going into Gryffindor and him going into Slytherin didn't help.

How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory?
It gave a totally different perspective on that memory. I thought that it was about Maruaders/Snape/Harry (so did the OotP director, he left out Lily's part in that memory, bet their raging now). I didn't really think about Lily that much. But now I realise that it was Lily. It was the moment when their friendship was finished. Calling her a Mudblood was the ultimate insult. I don't think she could ever forgive him after he did that. Lily never had anything to do with him again. But Snape continued to love Lily. And that's why it's 'Snape's Worst Memory'. He probably grew even more bitter against the Maruaders after that. Perhaps blamed James for Lily abandoning him. It certainly didn't help when James went on to marry her that's for sure. James joined the Order, Snape would have gone the opposite way - joined the Death Eaters. Maybe he hoped to make James and the Marauders pay for what they had done to him. Things certainly got worse for Snape as he went on. It was quite upsetting to read even though I had never really liked Snape. But Rowling always meant for us to feel that way. Perfect really.

The point is not and was not whether or not Lily was ever inlove with Snape. The POINT is whether or not the potential was there and HE RUINED IT WITH HIS CHOICES. This is a much more powerful plot point and exactly what JKR had planned from the beginning -- it was put in to appease filmmakers?? NOW I've heard it all! I guess Wuthering Heights was written to be a movie in the 1800s. Romeo and Juliet? Antony and Cleopatra? Gone With the Wind (NEVER written with the intention of being a film). PLEASE. Snape inlove with Lily was written the minute Harry walked into that potions class and the ingredients to a potion were another word for LILY - BEFORE Harry Potter MANIA ever took over the world. That's just insulting to JKR, IMO.

In my earlier posts I stated that in some ways the Snape/Lily BEST friendship mirrors Ron/Hermione in some ways. But while Snape was awash in pettiness, spite and the overwhelming insecurities of not having belonged anywhere or to anyone, Ron was able to grow up, become a man, resist the lures of abandoment and claim the woman he loved.

Snape, through his bad choices -- THREW away whatever chance he may have had with Lily. What would have happened had he stopped hanging out with fellow-future-death eaters? LOL. If he was able to overcome the insecure petty nature that showed itself with Petunia and the branch even early on? Lily was the kind of girl to see through to the person. Again, we have sentences written like, - to paraphrase - "Snape cut a resplendent figure in the grass in his confidence" and "the intensity of his gaze made her blush" and "there was a renewed spring in his step" -- these are all indications that there was a chance things might have gone Snape and Lily's way had he been able to shirk the confines of his lonlileness, insecurity and spiteful nature. But he couldn't. Not until she died.

I think also everyone again misses the juxtaposition of Snape with Lily and Snape with Dumbldeore. With Dumbledore we SEE Snape change and grow before our eyes. He goes from telling Lily it doesn't matter she's Muggleborn - before he's under the Slytherin influence at school -- to calling her a mudblood at his lowest point at Hogwarts - to berating Phineus the portrait NEVER to SAY THAT WORD. That right there is an indication of character growth and arc. Not to mention ONCE again the comment from Dumbldedore about sorting too soon.

While Snape would never magically transform into selfless hero of the world - we see that the POTENTIAL was there all along for him to be a man deserving of the love (albeit plantonic) Lily gave to him and he threw away with both hands.

It also seems obvious to me that some poeple were just never going to enjoy "the Chapter" b/c they never liked the Snape character and always had preconceived notions as to his true nature. Everyone is entitled to that. And in this case, why argue if you can't be objective - whether it be subconcious or not. That's just what I'm seeing.

I had a feeling after reading an editorial about Snape's worst memory that he loved/liked her. No idea they knew each other before Hogwarts though.

Wonderful chapter on the Pensieve memory, and his Patronus being a doe, just like hers...

I think also everyone again misses the juxtaposition of Snape with Lily and Snape with Dumbldeore. With Dumbledore we SEE Snape change and grow before our eyes. He goes from telling Lily it doesn't matter she's Muggleborn - before he's under the Slytherin influence at school -- to calling her a mudblood at his lowest point at Hogwarts - to berating Phineus the portrait NEVER to SAY THAT WORD. That right there is an indication of character growth and arc. Not to mention ONCE again the comment from Dumbldedore about sorting too soon.
Excellent post, Grinchmom! :wave:

I was sorry to read in the Epilogue that the House system hadn't changed even years later. :(

Snape, through his bad choices -- THREW away whatever chance he may have had with Lily. What would have happened had he stopped hanging out with fellow-future-death eaters? LOL. If he was able to overcome the insecure petty nature that showed itself with Petunia and the branch even early on...there was a chance things might have gone Snape and Lily's way had he been able to shirk the confines of his lonlileness, insecurity and spiteful nature. But he couldn't. Not until she died...

While Snape would never magically transform into selfless hero of the world - we see that the POTENTIAL was there all along for him to be a man deserving of the love (albeit plantonic) Lily gave to him and he threw away with both hands.

YOu couldn't have said it more prefectly. Harry was the hero, Snape the anti-hero and Voldemort the outright villian. I absolutely loved the Snape's last memory chapter. It was so sad and it totally changed my view of Snape. I hadn't liked him before because he killed Dumbledore, though I was hoping he might turn out to be one of her "shades-of-grey" characters. He is. It made me happy to see that.

I was sorry to read in the Epilogue that the House system hadn't changed even years later.

Yeah that annoyed me too. Even Dumbledore and Voldemort (albeit for different reasons) agreed that the Sorting Hat should go.

Ok this was the best part ever. I even cried at this part. Especially the part when Snape was clutching lily's note.

The story is there in the names of Severus and James:

James's name means "The Supplanter" or someone who takes the place of another.

Severus means "To Sever Ties." (It can also mean "To Serve")

Lily had to "sever" her friendship with Severus so she could date James, who took his place as her new best friend.