Snape and Lily - the Relationship Revealed!

"What if Snape was really Harry's dad!" I know, that's so soap opera drama, but I'm not afraid to say I thought about it for a split second!

then Harry would hardly look so much like James...

But I always felt that the Sorting Hat had the ability to peer deep into your mind and discover your true qualities; this is why it placed Hermione in Gryffindor and not Ravenclaw, for example, although at first glance one would certainly think she belonged to the latter.. or Neville in Gryffindor and not Hufflepuff.
OTOH, it almost placed Harry in Slytherin based on the bit of LV within.

The story is there in the names of Severus and James:

James's name means "The Supplanter" or someone who takes the place of another.

Severus means "To Sever Ties." (It can also mean "To Serve")

Lily had to "sever" her friendship with Severus so she could date James, who took his place as her new best friend.

That's really interesting. My english teacher would love you.

Snape didn't have the Marauder's Map, which strikes me as more of a surveillance device than anything Snape had at his disposal. Harry watched Ginny's "dot" on the map, and we can figure that James also watched Lily that way.

Snape also didn't have the Invisibility Cloak, but James did.

My feeling is that Snape was hiding in the bushes as a child because he was shy, and he didn't know what to say. And the way it worked out, he felt he said the wrong thing. I pity that boy, myself. :( He had a hard life as a child, and just wanted a friend, and he found a great one who changed his life, though his feelings caused him great unhappiness later.



I agree, I do not think that Severus was a stalker at all. They were friends, he did not go around following Lily. In that one scene where he watches them from the bushes, he is building up the courage to talk to her. One must remember the life Severus has come from. He has been neglected at home and most likely feels rejected. As such, it would be difficult for him to strike out into the world to befriend Lily right away because he already has an ingrained fear of rejection. It is this fear, I believe, that causes him to hide out in the bushes waiting for the right moment and not a desire to stalk her.

I think a lot of people take for granted their own ability and ease for simple human communication. We don't think about it because it comes naturally to most of us. Some of us are "shy" at worst but we learn how to talk to people from the people we are raised by. It's naive but true.

When you think about it, that young boy behind the bushes had no idea how to present himself to the girl. the memory of him waiting for the Hogwarts train shows his mother standing next to him with no indication that she is actually talking to him or anyone else. The fact that Petunia knew Sev as "That Snape Boy" shows us that Severus' father and his name already had a reputation in his neighborhood- not a good one.

Snape was not raised with any social skills whatsoever. He had no tools to use when it came to communicating. At that age, he was not even taught things such as basic manners let alone expression of affection. Any attention from his father was most likely negative and his only way of relating to his mother was through his magical heritage.

When he saw lily- for the first time in his life he met a peer. The fact that the boy stood up at all and spoke to the girl from the other side of the tracks- only to be ridiculed by her sister for telling the truth- was one first brave step.

It serves up a wonderful metaphor as well. Lily reaches for a "fallen flower" and at that moment Snape step out into the light to speak to her.

Yea right; I’m sorry, the plot that Snape and Lilly were childhood friends and lovers at a distance when at Hogwarts, I think had more to do with :grumble: appease the film maker’s, then following logically to a conclusion an on going plot sequence from within the HP books.

This plot is foreshadowed in the first Potions lesson of PS/SS, long before anyone had any idea there would BE movies. That asphodel and wormwood make "the Draught of Living Death" is a one sentence summary of Snape's life after he lost Lily. We discussed this a few pages upthread, if you are interested.

Though it would be very nice to see in a movie. I hope they don't cut it out in favor of other stuff. :)

I agree. I don't think that Sirius was an impartial observer when it came to Snape.

Yet we saw abundant evidence of Snape's malice throughout the books, so Sirius wasn't far off the mark when describing Snape's behavior.

Given that Lily did not like James and would not date him (despite the fact that she was attracted to him) because he was a bullying toerag, it seems unlikely that she would have remained friends with Severus for as long as she did if he was throwing Dark curses around indiscriminately, so if Snape knew a lot of Dark curses he wasn't using them to bully others.

She knew he'd been calling muggleborns like herself "mudbloods." She knew how close he was to Mulciber and Avery and disliked the things they were doing. She knew enough to dislike the kind of things Snape himself did. She even mentioned the fact that her other friends couldn't figure out why she even bothered with him - and Snape had to have done things to have gotten such a bad reputation around the Hogwarts campus.

Lily is no fool, and she was never in love with Severus as she was with James, so I see no reason to doubt her judgement of Severus, but I see plenty of reasons to doubt Sirius's. Lily had her own friends and did not "need" Severus to be her friend. By fifth year Severus had obviously developed his interest in the dark arts to an extent that Lily found unacceptable, and had developed friendships within his own house that worried her. Consequently she ended the friendship. I see Sev's slide to the Dark side as gradual as he moved up the school.

Remember their conversation on the train? Remember Snape's passion for being sorted into Slytherin? I don't think he came to Hogwarts as a blank page that was filled in after he got there. He knew enough about Slytherin to desire being a part of it and all that it entailed. His mother may well have been into the dark arts as she, too, was a Slytherin.

Remember their conversation on the train? Remember Snape's passion for being sorted into Slytherin? I don't think he came to Hogwarts as a blank page that was filled in after he got there. He knew enough about Slytherin to desire being a part of it and all that it entailed. His mother may well have been into the dark arts as she, too, was a Slytherin.

He characterized that as the house of 'brains over brawn', not the house of pure blood, or Dark Arts. Sounds to me like he may NOT have. Especially since he seemed to think there was a possibility Lily would be sorted there as well.

I think that after meeting James and Sirius, and being tripped on the train, Snape probably told the Sorting Hat, "Not Gryffindor, Not Gryffindor."

I think that after meeting James and Sirius, and being tripped on the train, Snape probably told the Sorting Hat, "Not Gryffindor, Not Gryffindor."

:rotfl:

I agree, I do not think that Severus was a stalker at all. They were friends, he did not go around following Lily. In that one scene where he watches them from the bushes, he is building up the courage to talk to her. One must remember the life Severus has come from. He has been neglected at home and most likely feels rejected. As such, it would be difficult for him to strike out into the world to befriend Lily right away because he already has an ingrained fear of rejection. It is this fear, I believe, that causes him to hide out in the bushes waiting for the right moment and not a desire to stalk her.


Exactly. He's hardly a stalker! the scene where they're sitting in the grass near the "river" - remember Petunia said Spinner's End was the near the River. So obviously, Lily had gone to seek "him" out - thus they are in his end of the town - not hers.

I think that after meeting James and Sirius, and being tripped on the train, Snape probably told the Sorting Hat, "Not Gryffindor, Not Gryffindor."

Good point SIP....... if he had any idea at all that he couold influence the sorting hat. It's still kind of a funny image!

He characterized that as the house of 'brains over brawn', not the house of pure blood, or Dark Arts. Sounds to me like he may NOT have. Especially since he seemed to think there was a possibility Lily would be sorted there as well.

I think he wanted her in Slytherin because he wanted to be in Slytherin, and having his friend there would be a nice thing. I remember Ron hoping that he and Hermione wouldn't both end up in the same house in the first book. I see Snape's conversation with Lily as being in that same vein.

I don't think Slytherin's reputation for turning out dark wizards and witches was a new happenstance when Lily and Severus came to Hogwarts, nor do I think Slytherin's reputation was unknown to him... although Lily probably did not know when she first came to the school. I'd bet my last dollar he didn't tell her either.

I think that after meeting James and Sirius, and being tripped on the train, Snape probably told the Sorting Hat, "Not Gryffindor, Not Gryffindor."

I agree! Gryffindor would have been the last place a budding dark wizard would want to be placed.

Yet we saw abundant evidence of Snape's malice throughout the books, so Sirius wasn't far off the mark when describing Snape's behavior.



She knew he'd been calling muggleborns like herself "mudbloods." She knew how close he was to Mulciber and Avery and disliked the things they were doing. She knew enough to dislike the kind of things Snape himself did. She even mentioned the fact that her other friends couldn't figure out why she even bothered with him - and Snape had to have done things to have gotten such a bad reputation around the Hogwarts campus.



Remember their conversation on the train? Remember Snape's passion for being sorted into Slytherin? I don't think he came to Hogwarts as a blank page that was filled in after he got there. He knew enough about Slytherin to desire being a part of it and all that it entailed. His mother may well have been into the dark arts as she, too, was a Slytherin.

If he was already into the Dark Arts, then why did he have the reaction he did when Lily asked him to tell her about the Dementors?

"What do you want to know about them for?" Then going on to explain only people who did "bad" things went to Azkaban where the dementors were. Then going to say to her she would never go there because she was too -- we can assume he was going to say she's so good and fabulous.

I think a lot of people take for granted their own ability and ease for simple human communication. We don't think about it because it comes naturally to most of us. Some of us are "shy" at worst but we learn how to talk to people from the people we are raised by. It's naive but true.

When you think about it, that young boy behind the bushes had no idea how to present himself to the girl. the memory of him waiting for the Hogwarts train shows his mother standing next to him with no indication that she is actually talking to him or anyone else. The fact that Petunia knew Sev as "That Snape Boy" shows us that Severus' father and his name already had a reputation in his neighborhood- not a good one.

Snape was not raised with any social skills whatsoever. He had no tools to use when it came to communicating. At that age, he was not even taught things such as basic manners let alone expression of affection. Any attention from his father was most likely negative and his only way of relating to his mother was through his magical heritage.

When he saw lily- for the first time in his life he met a peer. The fact that the boy stood up at all and spoke to the girl from the other side of the tracks- only to be ridiculed by her sister for telling the truth- was one first brave step.

It serves up a wonderful metaphor as well. Lily reaches for a "fallen flower" and at that moment Snape step out into the light to speak to her.

Well said.

Let's get back on to the topic of Severus and Lily's relationship. To discuss his house choice and drak arts invlovement please refer to his character thread Severus Snape: Character Analysis v2 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=109066)

I agree Tonks. I think had Lily forgave Snape, he wouldn't have become a death eater. It is so sad to reread the Prince's Tale because you can see in every scene that passes how he gets flustered or messes up his chances.

I think Lily was just waiting for Snape to express his feelings. Once she saw that he was going down the wrong path she couldn't wait no longer.
This comes very close to blaming Lily for Snape's decisions. It is evident from the fragments of conversation we are shown, that there were many occasions on which Lily expressed distress at the sort of friends Snape had and his fascination with the Dark Arts. It was never a question of Lily "forgiving" him since he didn't repent. She offered him a clear choice - she said she couldn't continue to be friends and make excuses for him while he called all Muggle-borns "Mudbloods" and associated with people who employed the Dark Arts. Snape even brushes off the Dark magic attack on Mary McDonald as "a laugh, that's all". Snape chose to continue down that path and that decision meant the end of his friendship with Lily, because she simply could not condone the things he was involved in. It's not a matter of Lily "forgiving" but of Snape seeing that his friends are evil. He never did. It wasn't until Lily was directly threatened by Voldemort that Snape switched sides, and it's canon that he would not have done so for any other reason.

Also, Lily didn't love Snape. It would be very unhealthy indeed if she had started dating him in order to keep him away from future Death Eaters when she didn't love him! She wanted to be his friend, but couldn't condone what he was doing. She spoke the truth to him, as probably no one else did. He didn't listen. What more could Lily have done?

This comes very close to blaming Lily for Snape's decisions. It is evident from the fragments of conversation we are shown, that there were many occasions on which Lily expressed distress at the sort of friends Snape had and his fascination with the Dark Arts.

I don't see how this is blaming Lily for Snape's decisions. They were both young, they both made decisions that maybe weren't the best. Snape still made the decision, but it may have been exacerbated because she felt she couldn't deal with his choices. That doesn't indicate it was her fault.

I don't see how this is blaming Lily for Snape's decisions. They were both young, they both made decisions that maybe weren't the best.
I can't see that Lily's decision to end a friendship with a boy who was well on the way to becoming a Death Eater was wrong. She was not responsible for what he became. Only Snape could make those choices.

I can't see that Lily's decision to end a friendship with a boy who was well on the way to becoming a Death Eater was wrong. She was not responsible for what he became. Only Snape could make those choices.
Most people need the support of friends/people to keep from making the wrong decisions. That is why there are organizations such as AA...

Lily was a great friend to Snape. I don't think anyone can deny that. She stuck with him even when she was being criticized for associating with him.

I also think he was a good friend to her - but there were conditions tied to their friendship from his perspective that were completely absent from her.

Most people need the support of friends/people to keep from making the wrong decisions. That is why there are organizations such as AA...

And Lily did support him. More importantly she was honest with him and gave him good advice. But despite her support and friendship he chose to become what she could never condone.

Also, it was not Lily's sole responsibility to be Snape's therapist and guardian angel. She did all she could for him, but he still went bad. She maintained the friendship much longer than her other friends considered reasonable, but in the end it was up to Snape to choose between what was right and what was easy, and as a teenager he made the wrong choice.

And Lily did support him. More importantly she was honest with him and gave him good advice. But despite her support and friendship he chose to become what she could never condone.

Also, it was not Lily's sole responsibility to be Snape's therapist and guardian angel. She did all she could for him, but he still went bad. She maintained the friendship much longer than her other friends considered reasonable, but in the end it was up to Snape to choose between what was right and what was easy, and as a teenager he made the wrong choice.

I think this is KEY to looking at Snapes character, particularly in relation to how he functions thematically throughout the book.

It was SNAPE'S choice, and Lily couldn't make his choices for him.

DD constantly states that it is our choices that define us.

Snape made the choice to protect Harry.

all this talk about DD being manipulative kind of bothers me, but DD gave him the choice to walk away.

Snape instead chose to withstand the pain to make up for not listening to Lily sooner.

If I were Lily and saw my son being abused and otherwise mistreated by someone I once considered a friend, I would have haunted him every day of his life. Snape might have been committed to keeping Harry alive, but no one can argue that he did everything in his power to make Harry's life miserable.

And Lily did support him. More importantly she was honest with him and gave him good advice. But despite her support and friendship he chose to become what she could never condone.

Also, it was not Lily's sole responsibility to be Snape's therapist and guardian angel. She did all she could for him, but he still went bad. She maintained the friendship much longer than her other friends considered reasonable, but in the end it was up to Snape to choose between what was right and what was easy, and as a teenager he made the wrong choice.

I never said it was. I'm just saying that her decision affected his decision. That doesn't make her responsible for his choice (that being why it was his choice), but it shouldn't be overlooked, either.

If I turn my back on a friend who is making a poor decision, after telling them that I think it is a poor decision repeatedly, and that friend goes on to make an even poorer decision, it doesn't make me responsible for their choice, but that doesn't mean that my choice had no bearing on theirs, either.

I never said it was. I'm just saying that her decision affected his decision. That doesn't make her responsible for his choice (that being why it was his choice), but it shouldn't be overlooked, either.

If I turn my back on a friend who is making a poor decision, after telling them that I think it is a poor decision repeatedly, and that friend goes on to make an even poorer decision, it doesn't make me responsible for their choice, but that doesn't mean that my choice had no bearing on theirs, either.

I think his path was already laid by the time he had that conversation with Lily. Snape came to Hogwarts already steeped in the dark arts and angling for a spot with the death eaters.

I can't see that Lily's decision to end a friendship with a boy who was well on the way to becoming a Death Eater was wrong. She was not responsible for what he became. Only Snape could make those choices.

I don't think Lily's decision to end the friendship was wrong at all. I only believe that if they had remained friends and she gave him an ultimatum of them or me, then I believe Severus would have chosen Lily. I do not blame Lily at all for Severus' decision nor do I think she was wrong.

Personally I have difficulty "buying" the whole Snape/Lily thing, but I really have no choice now. :no:
I didn't give the theory any credit in HPB, feeling that "Snapes Worst Memory" did not offer enough info to support it - but does anyone else find it difficult to swallow his "love" for Lilly when, as far as any of us know, they never snogged or anything ? Just how much of a relationship was it, that it can be called "love" ?
It seemed little more than infatuation to me, and never underestimate infatuation; it can be very powerful while it lasts - it just doesn't have the stamina that love does - but to develop true love requires a little more .. interaction, I guess is a good word, between people, I think, than Snape and Lilly ever got a chance to really develop.

It just seem a bit of a stretch that he would promise DD to watch over her son after her death, because after all, she was gone for good. I realize it was to "not let her die in vain", but somehow, it just doesn't follow, especially given his treatment of Harry. It's not "complex", it's outright contradictory, IMO.

Reminder: Keep this discussion civil and on topic or warnings may follow.

I wasn't too surprised when I read that chapter. When I had first heard the theory last summer, I didn't really think about it much, and just considered it unlikely, although I thought they could have been friends. I think it was really interesting that they were friends before Hogwarts and continued to remain friends throughout school. I think Lily stayed friends with him despite Snape's attraction to the Dark Arts because it is in her nature to find the best in people. I think she did forgive him for calling her a Mudblood but she certainly didn't forget it. All these revelations at the end made me really sad and almost sorry for Snape, which says something because I don't like him. But I do think it is so sweet that he still loved Lily even after she died and all he was doing for the 17 years since then was all for her, by protecting her son.

Whew, didn't read all of these pages, honestly...

Loved this part of the story...Snape was never Voldemort's man, nor was he Dumbledore's man. He was Lily Evans' man. He loved her so purely...

Do you think Lily was good at Potions not on pure talent but because Snape was helping her? (Why else would there be such a strong emphasis on her talent in Potions, which was his forte?)

Lily was his BEST friend. We know they were best friends for years before she turned his back on him. Even if they never "snogged" or anything, I think it's pretty clear that throughout their friendship, Snape was falling deeply in love with her, that she was the one woman for him, and that he was dreaming of a future with her. His affiliation with the Death Eaters was probably to back himself up. He knew that if he ever lost Lily, he'd lose everything- he wanted to have another affiliation in case that happened. His mistake was trying to isolate Lily and him from everyone. He should have pursued Lily and sought other affiliation elsewhere, and not with the Death Eaters. While they were friends, Lily was his best friend and the love of his life- whether or not there was "snogging" that, to Snape, was enough, as long as she didn't snog anyone else.




My opinion, too. He treated Harry horribly. No way around that one.

Think how painful it was for him to even look at Harry. I'm not saying this excuses his treatment of Harry; it doesn't. His treatment of Harry, I believe, was his own defense mechanism in avoiding all the pain associated with Harry- the loss of Lily, jealousy of James, all his shame, guilt, and regret is all compiled together when he sees Harry. What if he had treated Harry differently, despite all that? It just doesn't seem feasible to even conceive of Snape acting differently.

Think how painful it was for him to even look at Harry. I'm not saying this excuses his treatment of Harry; it doesn't. His treatment of Harry, I believe, was his own defense mechanism in avoiding all the pain associated with Harry- the loss of Lily, jealousy of James, all his shame, guilt, and regret is all compiled together when he sees Harry. What if he had treated Harry differently, despite all that? It just doesn't seem feasible to even conceive of Snape acting differently.

It's conceivable to me. Most people, I think, wouldn't have made an 11yo boy pay for a grudge they had against one of that boy's parents.

Personally I have difficulty "buying" the whole Snape/Lily thing, but I really have no choice now. :no:
I didn't give the theory any credit in HPB, feeling that "Snapes Worst Memory" did not offer enough info to support it - but does anyone else find it difficult to swallow his "love" for Lilly when, as far as any of us know, they never snogged or anything ? Just how much of a relationship was it, that it can be called "love" ?
It seemed little more than infatuation to me, and never underestimate infatuation; it can be very powerful while it lasts - it just doesn't have the stamina that love does - but to develop true love requires a little more .. interaction, I guess is a good word, between people, I think, than Snape and Lilly ever got a chance to really develop.

It just seem a bit of a stretch that he would promise DD to watch over her son after her death, because after all, she was gone for good. I realize it was to "not let her die in vain", but somehow, it just doesn't follow, especially given his treatment of Harry. It's not "complex", it's outright contradictory, IMO.


*shrug* I think it's quite possible to love someone truly, deeply, and purely without ever snogging them and...we're not sure if they ever kissed or not. Those may not be memories that Snape chose to share with Harry, that he passed along. There's more to love than simply physical lust, and I think that's an overwhelming theme in Rowling's world.

Perhaps it wasn't preventing her death from being in vain, as Dumbledore suggested. Perhaps keeping Harry alive was...in a way, keeping Lily alive. It wasn't like Lily herself, and it must have been painful for him to see a miniature James, but to see Lily's eyes every day in his classroom? What would Snape do for that?

:p And not to be snippy, but who said complex wasn't contradictory? I think that quite a bit of Snape was contradictory: that was his nature as a double agent...he had to do quite a bit of twisting around his own words and principles to do as Dumbledore wished, as Lily would have wished, and perhaps even Snape himself got himself confused in his own lies.

Just some thoughts!

It's conceivable to me. Most people, I think, wouldn't have made an 11yo boy pay for a grudge they had against one of that boy's parents.



It's more than a grudge against James that triggers terrible feelings when Snape is around Harry. No doubt his inability to get over these feelings is a bit immature. However, think about how much he is reminded of when around Harry. He sees Lily's eyes- he is reminded of the loss of the only woman he's ever loved, who was also his childhood best friend. He feels all the guilt and shame associated with his Worst Memory, the day he lost her, and the mistake he made in calling her a Mudblood when he was overcome with shame and humiliation. He remembers her attitude toward his affiliation with Death Eaters and he feels even more guilt in the choice he made to follow the Death Eaters. On top of all that, he sees a living reminder of the man Lily married and choose over him. He sees James, he is reminded of how James treated and humiliated him, how he framed Snape as an outcast and bullied him in front of all his peers.

His treatment of Harry was no doubt horrific, but before we judge him too harshly I think we need to try to truly imagine the burden of the amount of regret Snape carried inside him, and how it was ALL associated with Harry and triggered whenever he saw Harry. Can any of us truly imagine living with that amount of regret? It's hard to fathom. I can't fathom that kind of burden.

I feel so bad for Snape. And when you see Snapes memory, it really wasn't Snape who started the fight between him, James and Sirius... It was more to the fact that Snape was talking to Lily about her being in Slytherin and James overheard and made fun of him... To see Snape cry in his memorys and how his patronus was like Lily's.... it was touching and showed a whole new side of Snape. Who do you think should of married Lily? Snape or James???

Lily could never have married Snape, given the life choices he had made. Still, he loved her. Knowing what he did, in the end, I cannot help but wonder if Snape regretted the choices he had made earlier in life (even before he became a Death Eater).

It seemed little more than infatuation to me, and never underestimate infatuation; it can be very powerful while it lasts - it just doesn't have the stamina that love does - but to develop true love requires a little more .. interaction, I guess is a good word, between people, I think, than Snape and Lilly ever got a chance to really develop.


Lily and Severus met went they were 9 or 10, at least a year before they went to Hogwarts. They were still 'best friends' in their fifth year. That's six years of interaction at the least. That's as long as Ginny had known Harry - except, of course, that Harry and Ginny were not close most of that time, whereas Severus and Lily were. They talked outside of classes, and presumably saw a lot of one another over the summers, as they were neighbors (and, again, best friends).

He was an only child, apparently. If he has not come to love her romantically at some point (presumably post-puberty!) she would still have been like a sister.

I really don't see how you can say they did not have enough interaction. Unless you are using that word as a euphemism.

To me, this relationship just goes to show how kind Lily was to everyone. As I was reading how Snape had just walked up to Lily and her sister, I figured they would've called him a freak or something and NEVER talked to him again (based on his theory/fact of Lily being a witch and his appearance). However, later on.. we found out that Lily was becoming close friends with Snape and (as it progressed) she didn't really pay much attention to what others thought. She just knew that they were friends, no matter what everyone thought.
This may sound odd, but I'm starting to feel for Snape. He was in love with her, and I found it somewhat.. cute (for lack of better term) how he got it through. ^.^

I really agree with Dogstar87 on almost everything in this one... When I found out his love for Lily fit very well with his previous actions/behaviour and personality. It was a contradiction I suppose, but everyone has contradictions inside of themselves. No one has only side to themselves, and that's the strength in Rowling's writing- her character devellopment is so true to life.

With regards to Lily, I think that she kept up the friendship that long was amazing, considering the circumstances. I know I would have stopped the friendship long before, if I was her.

I feel so bad for Snape. And when you see Snapes memory, it really wasn't Snape who started the fight between him, James and Sirius... It was more to the fact that Snape was talking to Lily about her being in Slytherin and James overheard and made fun of him... To see Snape cry in his memorys and how his patronus was like Lily's.... it was touching and showed a whole new side of Snape. Who do you think should of married Lily? Snape or James???


Honestly Snape isn't a very pleasant person unless you know him very well. I can see why James and Sirius were mean. Snape probably tossed out as many threats and arguements as them. I do love how his Patronus was exactly as Lily's own. It was very touching and he is a good person in a sense. You just had to have had his trust in a way. He was dead after she died. He wasn't going to be very open to anyone other than Dumbledore with whom his promise was to. In the end you see Snape actually caring and worrying about Albus very much.

I think Snape and Lily could of been a possibility but I think she and James were meant for each other. Also there would never had been a Harry Potter.

His treatment of Harry was no doubt horrific, but before we judge him too harshly I think we need to try to truly imagine the burden of the amount of regret Snape carried inside him, and how it was ALL associated with Harry and triggered whenever he saw Harry. Can any of us truly imagine living with that amount of regret? It's hard to fathom. I can't fathom that kind of burden.

I can imagine it. Many people have made choices that they later came to passionately regret. I don't believe most would have let that regret manifest itself in the abuse of a child over whom they held a position of authority.

I think where we're missing the boat here is that Jo gave us an explanation of Snape's execrable behavior toward Harry - not a justification. There is no justification for a grown man abusing two kids as Snape did Harry and Neville, nor is there any redemption in the fact that he did so.

Snape's treatment of Harry was the ultimate betrayal of Lily.

yeah i think its pretty nuts that lily and snape kept their friendship up for so long. it says a lot about lily that she could still be friends with him even when he was in slytherin and hanging out with the wrong crowd. i feel like snape didn't put enough effort into their friendship, though. if he really loved her then i think he should have respected her wishes and tried to better himself instead of getting involved with bad people.

yeah i think its pretty nuts that lily and snape kept their friendship up for so long. it says a lot about lily that she could still be friends with him even when he was in slytherin and hanging out with the wrong crowd. i feel like snape didn't put enough effort into their friendship, though. if he really loved her then i think he should have respected her wishes and tried to better himself instead of getting involved with bad people.Snape though did put effort into their relationship. From what he know about Snape he never has worn his heart of his sleeve, he hid his emotions very well. I didn't even think Snape loved Lily at first when I first read "The Prince's Tale" I thought they were just good friends until later it confirmed that he loved her. Snape and Lily knew each other when they were young, and to ship away a young friendship like that would be hard. Snape taught Lily all about the Wizarding World, and Snape saw her as a girl that liked him, because he had never seen that before I am guessing.

Snape though did put effort into their relationship. From what he know about Snape he never has worn his heart of his sleeve, he hid his emotions very well. I didn't even think Snape loved Lily at first when I first read "The Prince's Tale" I thought they were just good friends until later it confirmed that he loved her. Snape and Lily knew each other when they were young, and to ship away a young friendship like that would be hard. Snape taught Lily all about the Wizarding World, and Snape saw her as a girl that liked him, because he had never seen that before I am guessing.

i'm actually not sure whether snape knew that lily just saw them as friends or not. no doubt snape is a smart person, but i don't know if he was able to tell the difference between her friendly actions or her interested in him romantically.

i'm actually not sure whether snape knew that lily just saw them as friends or not. no doubt snape is a smart person, but i don't know if he was able to tell the difference between her friendly actions or her interested in him romantically.

Major difference, though, between intelligence in life and intelligence in love. I doubt whether Snape really thought Lily loved him back, but I also doubt whether he really understood how to read a girl's feelings.

Major difference, though, between intelligence in life and intelligence in love. I doubt whether Snape really thought Lily loved him back, but I also doubt whether he really understood how to read a girl's feelings.

I think Snape may have tried to convince himself that she loved him back when he knew deep down that she really just loved him as a friend. That must have been awkward for Lily. She could tell that he loved her because he always flared up whenever James was mentioned.

I think Snape may have tried to convince himself that she loved him back when he knew deep down that she really just loved him as a friend. That must have been awkward for Lily. She could tell that he loved her because he always flared up whenever James was mentioned.

Didn't seem like that to me. Sev was obviously very insecure otherwise he wouldn't have felt so threatened by James fancying Lily.

Didn't seem like that to me. Sev was obviously very insecure otherwise he wouldn't have felt so threatened by James fancying Lily.

Yeah, true. I would have liked to have read more about the beginning of James and Lily's relationship and how Snape reacted.

Yeah, true. I would have liked to have read more about the beginning of James and Lily's relationship and how Snape reacted.

That would have been interesting, but I felt bad enough for the guy without having to actually witness his heart being torn out of his chest... I'd have cried for days.

That would have been interesting, but I felt bad enough for the guy without having to actually witness his heart being torn out of his chest... I'd have cried for days.

Eh, I wouldn't. Even though Snape ended up being good in the end, I still don't like him. He was pretty mean to Harry. I mean, yeah he saved his life, but still. Was it really necessary for him to be so horrible to Harry just because he hated James? I think not.

Eh, I wouldn't. Even though Snape ended up being good in the end, I still don't like him. He was pretty mean to Harry. I mean, yeah he saved his life, but still. Was it really necessary for him to be so horrible to Harry just because he hated James? I think not.

I've always loved him; I don't know what it was. No, he didn't have to be so mean, and yes it was childish and he was a bully, but I think most anyone would be bitter in his situation. How often is it the case that the bitter, jaded character is really the most loving? I think that's always what I expected with Snape, even if I never fully believed the Lily theory until it happened, I always thought he had a reason to be the way he was. He was never terrible to the kids, he was never Umbridge, yet he always seems to be higher up than even her on the "I hate you" scale among people who don't like him. A lot of people who've had a hard life are just bitter and mean sometimes; that doesn't give them an excuse, but at least you can understand it.

Not to mention my decoy-memory beliefs.

Whew, didn't read all of these pages, honestly...

Loved this part of the story...Snape was never Voldemort's man, nor was he Dumbledore's man. He was Lily Evans' man.

That was really well put ! :tu:

I've always loved him; I don't know what it was. No, he didn't have to be so mean, and yes it was childish and he was a bully, but I think most anyone would be bitter in his situation. How often is it the case that the bitter, jaded character is really the most loving? I think that's always what I expected with Snape, even if I never fully believed the Lily theory until it happened, I always thought he had a reason to be the way he was. He was never terrible to the kids, he was never Umbridge, yet he always seems to be higher up than even her on the "I hate you" scale among people who don't like him. A lot of people who've had a hard life are just bitter and mean sometimes; that doesn't give them an excuse, but at least you can understand it.

Not to mention my decoy-memory beliefs.


Yeah I know he was never Umbridge, but he was definitely not kind. I don't think Harry deserved that treatment no matter what kind of bitter feelings Snape had. I have to admit, I was completely wrong about my predictions for him in the end of the series. I thought Rowling was going to write the seventh book like Snape could possibly turn out good in the end, but he would actually be evil deep down. I was way off, obviously.

I think Snape may have tried to convince himself that she loved him back when he knew deep down that she really just loved him as a friend. That must have been awkward for Lily. She could tell that he loved her because he always flared up whenever James was mentioned.

I think Snape would have known that he didn't have a chance romantically with Lily. He seemed so insecure. Even if there had been a point where it was a possibility he wouldn't have seen it because he had such a poor self-image. But I agree that it still would have been awfully awkward for Lily.

Yeah I know he was never Umbridge, but he was definitely not kind. I don't think Harry deserved that treatment no matter what kind of bitter feelings Snape had. I have to admit, I was completely wrong about my predictions for him in the end of the series. I thought Rowling was going to write the seventh book like Snape could possibly turn out good in the end, but he would actually be evil deep down. I was way off, obviously.

I'm not saying Harry deserved it, I'm just saying it doesn't make him a bad person. Lily wasn't just the love of his life; she was all he had, even when he was young his parents didn't care for him, and his friends were all heading down this road of violence and murder, and Lily was the only thing that ever cared about him very much or inspired him to be good.

I think it's important to note that he had about a million forces in his life telling him Voldemort's path was the right one, and that he had only one force ever that told him to take the right path. Despite all the bad influence, he decided to devote his life to the one and only good influence. What does that say about how Snape would have been if he were raised with loving parents or if other changes in his life had been made that showed him right and wrong?

I'm not saying Harry deserved it, I'm just saying it doesn't make him a bad person. Lily wasn't just the love of his life; she was all he had, even when he was young his parents didn't care for him, and his friends were all heading down this road of violence and murder, and Lily was the only thing that ever cared about him very much or inspired him to be good.

I think it's important to note that he had about a million forces in his life telling him Voldemort's path was the right one, and that he had only one force ever that told him to take the right path. Despite all the bad influence, he decided to devote his life to the one and only good influence. What does that say about how Snape would have been if he were raised with loving parents or if other changes in his life had been made that showed him right and wrong?

I bet he would have been a great wizard through and through if he had been raised in a loving home. I applaud Snape for being brave and taking the right course of action, but still. I don't like him very much as a character. Yeah he pretty much saved the whole wizarding world by letting Harry read his thoughts, I'm not arguing that point. He was definitely good in the end. All I'm saying is that he should have been good to Harry earlier on. Think of the great relationship they could have had if Snape had been nice. He could have been a mentor to Harry, kind of like Dumbledore was. But no, Snape had to view Harry as James reincarnate so he treated him like scum up until his death.

Lily and Severus met went they were 9 or 10, at least a year before they went to Hogwarts. They were still 'best friends' in their fifth year. That's six years of interaction at the least. That's as long as Ginny had known Harry - except, of course, that Harry and Ginny were not close most of that time, whereas Severus and Lily were. They talked outside of classes, and presumably saw a lot of one another over the summers, as they were neighbors (and, again, best friends).

He was an only child, apparently. If he has not come to love her romantically at some point (presumably post-puberty!) she would still have been like a sister.

I really don't see how you can say they did not have enough interaction. Unless you are using that word as a euphemism.

No, no innuendo here. I just don't see that they did have enough interaction though, to call it "love", in the true-est sense of the word.. they had plenty enough interaction to be very good friends, but there's nothing else written that actually shows us any truly close moments between them - only friendship, and a somewhat strained one at that, judging by Snapes memories. Had JKR written in a few moments that were more tender, perhaps, I would be more accepting of it, but were just told how it is (was) without seeing a whole lotta support for it, in a literary sense.
Harry and Ginny had mutual feelings toward each other which were often described in print, but we have no literary evidence that Lilly was ever anything but merely friendly to Snape in the way that friends are.

I guess it boils down to whether or not you can believe in a "love at first sight" kind of love, or, in this case, a one-sided love, really.
Definitions of "love" are bound to get mired down in disagreement, so I'll drop it here. ;) lol
In a nutshell, there's no arguing that Snape loved Lilly, because it's canon, pure and simple.
It's just that I think that we should've seen something more in Snapes' memories, I guess, to flesh out that backstory further, to provide some support, understanding, and credibility, especially in light of the way Snape treated Lilly's son all those years.

I bet he would have been a great wizard through and through if he had been raised in a loving home. I applaud Snape for being brave and taking the right course of action, but still. I don't like him very much as a character. Yeah he pretty much saved the whole wizarding world by letting Harry read his thoughts, I'm not arguing that point. He was definitely good in the end. All I'm saying is that he should have been good to Harry earlier on. Think of the great relationship they could have had if Snape had been nice. He could have been a mentor to Harry, kind of like Dumbledore was. But no, Snape had to view Harry as James reincarnate so he treated him like scum up until his death.

I really can't blame him for that either, though. He was the living representative of Lily's love for James. It had to be torture.

But that aside, it's perfectly fair for you not to like him, but I can't see disliking him as a character. As a person, yes, but he is a goldmine of a character.

No, no innuendo here. I just don't see that they did have enough interaction though, to call it "love", in the true-est sense of the word.. they had plenty enough interaction to be very good friends, but there's nothing else written that actually shows us any truly close moments between them - only friendship, and a somewhat strained one at that, judging by Snapes memories. Had JKR written in a few moments that were more tender, perhaps, I would be more accepting of it, but were just told how it is (was) without seeing a whole lotta support for it, in a literary sense.
Harry and Ginny had mutual feelings toward each other which were often described in print, but we have no literary evidence that Lilly was ever anything but merely friendly to Snape in the way that friends are.

I guess it boils down to whether or not you can believe in a "love at first sight" kind of love, or, in this case, a one-sided love, really.
Definitions of "love" are bound to get mired down in disagreement, so I'll drop it here. ;) lol
In a nutshell, there's no arguing that Snape loved Lilly, because it's canon, pure and simple.
It's just that I think that we should've seen something more in Snapes' memories, I guess, to flesh out that backstory further, to provide some support, understanding, and credibility, especially in light of the way Snape treated Lilly's son all those years.

They were very obviously "best friends" from at the very least the time they were around ten to the time they were around fifteen. Sure it was just a crush for Snape when they were little kids, but by the end of their friendship it could have easily blossomed into, at the very least, very serious teen love. That could have continued to grow after that, we don't actually know what happened between them after SWM.

I really can't blame him for that either, though. He was the living representative of Lily's love for James. It had to be torture.

But that aside, it's perfectly fair for you not to like him, but I can't see disliking him as a character. As a person, yes, but he is a goldmine of a character.




Well yes definitely a goldmine of a character. I was about to say "person" but then I realized that Snape isn't a real person so it sounded odd haha.

I found most beautiful in the whole thing was the Doe/Best Friends thing, I think its awesome that they were best friends, in opposing houses, shows how sweet the pair of them were!

Well yes definitely a goldmine of a character. I was about to say "person" but then I realized that Snape isn't a real person so it sounded odd haha.

Eh, he’s real enough for me. Characters are more socially acceptable than imaginary friends anyway, so I go with them…

But yes Snape and Lily, that’s where we have to be now. So, shall we discuss that?

I am not bragging nor boasting but I think I was one of the first to bring up the concept of why Snape Hated Harry so much and how it had to be that Snape loved Lily, and Harry not only was a lasting living memory of her but a living reflection of the man who stole her from him - James. Funny how things work out. ^_^

Well, people have been saying it for a very very long time, Serric, but if you came up with the theory without outside interference, whether you were the first or otherwise, it proves you are very observant.

I found most beautiful in the whole thing was the Doe/Best Friends thing, I think its awesome that they were best friends, in opposing houses, shows how sweet the pair of them were!
You make them sound a bit sickly! I thought when I read the theories before DH that a love-story between Snape & Lily would be a bit cheesy but JKR wrote it so well. It did show how Lily saw the best in people, as most wouldn't have given Snape the time of day, greasy little lad that he was. I did like the fact that his patronus was the doe, like hers, though it makes his remark to Tonks seem a bit 2-faced when he said he didn't like her new patronus, he thought it looked weak.

If their first meeting took place near Spinners End, which looked like a northern town, does that mean Lily & Petunia were Northerners? Or was Spinners End not Snape's family home?

If their first meeting took place near Spinners End, which looked like a northern town, does that mean Lily & Petunia were Northerners? Or was Spinners End not Snape's family home?

Spinner's End was Snape's family home so obviously Petunia and Lily lived near him.

Well, people have been saying it for a very very long time, Serric, but if you came up with the theory without outside interference, whether you were the first or otherwise, it proves you are very observant.

Heh - it wasn't a matter of being the first - I apologize if I implied that in my post. I just remember starting a thread about it a while back and it getting erased - then finding out that this had happened to a few ppl. :)

In hindsight tho, it was the only truly logical explenation as to Snape's immediate dislike towards Harry. At first I thought it was he just reminded Snape fo James but then I started to think why Snape hated James so much in the first place. After thikning on it for a while, the common denominator was always Lily. Remember when it was Lily to yell at James and the boys for tormenting Snape by the tree that day. I had initially thought it was purely her good nature but something was nagging me about that. That act alone wouldn't be enough to have Snape feel so strongly for her in my theory.. there had to be an untold preexistance between them, or so I thought.

And now we now :)

I know this was a few pages back, but it raises an interesting question. What did cause Lily to leave the friendship?

I personally thought it was the fact that he called her a mudblood, not because of the Death Eaters. It was my understanding that he was not really a Death Eater at the time, he was only friends with them.Yeah, that was probably the straw that broke the camel's back. I suspect she was unhappy with some of the 'choices' Snape had been making. She probably didnt like his dabbling in dark magic and probably didnt care for his other friends. Calling her a 'mudblood' was probably the last straw for her and they went their seperate ways. (Plus, it wouldnt surprise me to learn that James pointed out Snape's short-comings every chance he could). :)

It just seems (to me) that Snape was a bad guy who fell for a good girl. His 'choices' stood in the way if their ever becoming lovers. She in turn, 'chose' a different path (and mate).

Also, those of you talking about Harry's eyes may be onto something. I suspect that everytime Snape saw Hary, he saw James, yet when he saw Harry's eyes, he saw Lily. This likely reminded him of what he had lost in his youth and it probably tormented him. ('Course, its his own fault). Lol!

Most people, I think, wouldn't have made an 11yo boy pay for a grudge they had against one of that boy's parents.True. That is why I think that Snape was such a bad guy. Yes, he was DD's man. Yes, he was spying for the Order. Yes, there were times he actually 'helped' Harry. But he was also horrible to the boy. He went out of his way to torment Harry. Most of us wouldnt go that far. :)

I am not bragging nor boasting but I think I was one of the first to bring up the concept of why Snape Hated Harry so much and how it had to be that Snape loved Lily, and Harry not only was a lasting living memory of her but a living reflection of the man who stole her from him - James. Funny how things work out. ^_^

I was saying that after I read book one and I know I wasn't the only one. My friends and I joked about it. But book one was actually the second book I read so I knew a fair bit about Snape while I as reading it. COS didn't have any Snape and LIly clues but if you read it before book one, you started to think: just what is this guys's problem anyway.

I'm quite glad this pairing was revealed. I'd had suspicions about it ever since Half-Blood Prince.

I think it's quite cute, actually. The only thing I wish about it was that Snape had the bravery to tell Lily about his feelings for her. He was given chances, but never took them.

I think Lily was attracted to James in their 5th year

In book 5, during Snape's memory scene where James is bullying him, it reads:

Many people in the small crowd watching cheered. Sirus, James, and Wormtail roared with laughter.

Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile...

I'm quite glad this pairing was revealed. I'd had suspicions about it ever since Half-Blood Prince.

I think it's quite cute, actually. The only thing I wish about it was that Snape had the bravery to tell Lily about his feelings for her. He was given chances, but never took them.

It would have been really hard for Lily and Snape to ever have a intimate relationship since Snape was so different and hated by all her fellow griffondors and especially since she had a soft spot for James.

Vindication.

I love how JK Rowling did a potential mushy and weak reason for Snape's loyalty into a strong, tragic and credible relationship. It explains so much about Snape especially his double-agent duties and Harry/Nevill treatment.

I'm not sure Snape sharing his feelings or not being in Slytherin would help - I'm afraid Lilly secretly liked the "arrogant toerag" .

Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile...
Although JKR implied that Lily had some sort of feelings for James during 5th year but I don't think that quote is proof of that.

Although JKR implied that Lily had some sort of feelings for James during 5th year but I don't think that quote is proof of that.

It sort of does. It shows us that she was defending Snape out of genuine concern but she did not "HATE" James. It makes it quite clear that she did have a sense of humour and was slightly inclined to laugh at James' not so witty jokes. However at that instance her loyalty towards a friend meant more than a crush.

It sort of does. It shows us that she was defending Snape out of genuine concern but she did not "HATE" James. It makes it quite clear that she did have a sense of humour and was slightly inclined to laugh at James' not so witty jokes.
Sure, but I don't think her laughing at her friend's misfortune, as a whole, showed that she had a huge crush on James. Just how I see it :shrug:

Sure, but I don't think her laughing at her friend's misfortune, as a whole, showed that she had a huge crush on James. Just how I see it :shrug:

She wasn't laughging at Snape's misfortune. I think she almost smiled at a comment James passed on her refusing to date him.
She didn't laugh. It wasn't even half a smile. She did have a crush on James. When he said something about dating her she came close to a smile.
It's because she was concerned about Snape's predicament that she was so vociferous about telling James in no uncertain terms, that he had to let Snape go.

Delighted to be here discussing this enchanting, puzzling, thought-provoking book.

Oooh, hell, this is sad - but here is my question:

When Snape lay dying, with Harry beside him, he gave out his memory.

He said "Look at me". Was that -- look at my memories, look at my life, look at me, look at who I am, look at all of my life, how I have been Dumbledore's man, at his side, all this time.

Or was it "Look at me" so that I can see Lily's eyes once more before I die?


I completely agree with you on the Snape wanting to see Lily's eyes once more before he died part.

I'll say..the only person Snape ever really loved(he DID greatly respect and look up to dumbledore)was Lily. And she was his hope. Without her..i reckon he might have been voldemort's death eater his whole life..and quite gladly so. Lily's role in his life is that of a saviour..He taught him how to love.
He loved her..truely. And i'm so glad Snape turned out be on the Order's side.
I've always had Faith.

She wasn't laughging at Snape's misfortune. I think she almost smiled at a comment James passed on her refusing to date him.
She didn't laugh. It wasn't even half a smile. She did have a crush on James. When he said something about dating her she came close to a smile. To me the lip twitch is a concrete indication of the chemistry between James and Lily that seems to be "there" all the way through this scene. She may not like James that much at this point but there is a "connection" there.

I completely agree with you on the Snape wanting to see Lily's eyes once more before he died part.

I'll say..the only person Snape ever really loved(he DID greatly respect and look up to dumbledore)was Lily. And she was his hope. Without her..i reckon he might have been voldemort's death eater his whole life..and quite gladly so. Lily's role in his life is that of a saviour..He taught him how to love.
He loved her..truely. And i'm so glad Snape turned out be on the Order's side.
I've always had Faith.

Snape truely was the books hero, in so many ways.

Who do you think should of married Lily? Snape or James???

I think she could have been happy with either man - if only Snape had stayed away from his passion for the Dark Arts. If he had had a happier childhood whereas he didn't always feel powerless and unloved [etc, etc], he may not have been drawn to them. Lily obviously liked and was friends with both men.

I really didn’t see this coming; I read theories about people thinking Snape loved her, or that they had been in some sort friends. That they were Best friends and knew each other 2 years before coming to Hogwarts. Yeah that probably was his worst memory as seems that’s where she ceased being friends with him. Of course you’d also thinking learning of her death and that he was partly responsible would be ever worse since he never stopped loving her. Who knows had Severus not be consumed with such dark art type things, who knows who Lily would have ended up with.

Someone asked earlier in this thread -

he said "Look at me". Was that -- look at my memories, look at my life, look at me, look at who I am, look at all of my life, how I have been Dumbledore's man, at his side, all this time.
Or was it "Look at me" so that I can see Lily's eyes once more before I die?

I would say it was both. Mostly "I want to see Lilly's eyes" but also "look at my life, memories, choices etc".

I think it was "Look at me" because I want Lily's eyes to be the last thing I see as I die.

I am sure he wanted to look into Lily's eyes one more time, because all he ever did since Voldemort had killed her, was trying to revenge her death by defeating Voldemort and now, dying but knowing Harry would succeed in doing so, he wanted to leave his life looking into her eyes without any regrets.

Someone asked earlier in this thread -

he said "Look at me". Was that -- look at my memories, look at my life, look at me, look at who I am, look at all of my life, how I have been Dumbledore's man, at his side, all this time.
Or was it "Look at me" so that I can see Lily's eyes once more before I die?

I would say it was both. Mostly "I want to see Lilly's eyes" but also "look at my life, memories, choices etc".
I think all of the above. :)

I think by that comment he just meant he wanted to look into Lily’s eyes again. I don’t think his saying that really had anything to do with the memories.

JK has exceeded our's expectations by creating a relationship between Lily and Severus full of doubts and questions, just like its two protagonists.
In my modest opinion, they began their story being friends: Snape showed her a magical world, she got answers for her questions and i'm sure they practised together. I imagine that, when they arrived at Hogwarts, they didn't want to be separated and tried to keep thei friendship, but unfortunately Snape didn't follow the same path than Lily.
maybe due to his familiar history, his knowledgement of magic before school or due to Lily didn't pay him the kind of attention he wanted, Snape became absorbed in Dark Arts. We cannot guilt Lily of Snape's mistakes. Perhap, if she had paid other sort of attention to Sev, ha had followed other path, or perhaps not.
I guess if his interest in Dark Arts was larger than his love for Lily. What maybe happened was that Lily realized that the boy who was her friend was not the same now and, as a smart girl I'm sure she was, she decided to leave him. Sev couldn't overcame it and he became even more absorbed in Dark Arts, his other love.
Voldemort gave him the attention that Lily didn't pay him (different kind, of course), although he followed loving her. Abd this is why he risked his life expiating his guilt, you know, protecting Lily's son.
His attitude to Harry was, however, a reflection of the resentment and bitterness he had inside. He was so immature and still hated James so that, in spite of his love for Lily, he treted Harry as he always wanted to treat James. He would have like to humiliated him, ridiculed him as James did with him, and Harry was the perfect scapegoat.
Severus Snape was an unusually brave man, risking his life and sentencing himself to eternal incomprehension by the Order's members, but he also was an eternal adolescent whom somebody had stolen his girl. This is why Snape told Harry "Look at me", saying "This is what I'm and I'm sorry" directly looking into Lily's eyes.

I could have gone either way on the Snape/Lily relationship. It didn't surprise me too much that they did have one. I don't think Snape realized how much he loved her until he lost her. He did choose the dark arts over her, after all.
It was a nice wrap-up to their story that in the end he chose her over the dark arts and that is what helped save Harry and the rest of the wizarding world. He only "grew" so much though. He was willing to do the right thing to help Harry defeat Voldemort but he'd be darned if he'd be nice to him along the way, lol.
H

I had read theories about it, and I had hoped that maybe since Snape was my favourite character, just maybe it was possible. But I didn't believe it, and it wasn't on my list of predictions. It seemed far fetched. But not anymore!!

I think the friendship was based on a muggle born witch making friends with someone, who was, finally, like herself, so she didn't stick out like a sore thumb anymore. I also think this is te reason their friendship continued long after Snape's affiliation to the Dark Arts became known. Snape had given her something that she needed, in a time when she had nothing, and he had been so encouraging to her. In turn, she gained his trust, learned about his father and mother, and felt for him. He was pitiful, completely pitiful, and she gave him a friend. When they both went through hard times, Snape more than Lily, she was normal for him, and he was even more normal for her. She didn't care what he looked like, she didn't make fun of him, she didn't laugh at his family or mock him. In turn, he wasn't jealous and desperate, like her older sister Petunia.

I imagine the Gryffindors, as all children are, were harsh to her for being friends with someone so crude and unfriendly. Dark Arts was something Snape shone at, and he took the opportunity. He wanted vengeance for what had been done to him in school, and Lily couldn't understand this, having always been popular and well liked. Snape was jealous, possibly he was taking a mocking of his own for being friends with her, but he loved her, he couldn't bring himself to leave her alone.

The turning point came when she tried to help him get away from James and Sirius, and james tried to bribe it out of her. If Lily went out with him, he wouldn't hurt Snape. Snape probably thought she would do it, so he lashed out, forcing her away from him as he did, and unwittingly forcing her clsoer to james. Had she agreed, and Snape had been left down, Lily may have gone on the date with James and still hated him for what he had done. That day Snape called her Mudblood probably changed the entire running of events.

I think she wanted to forgive him, but she thought it was a lost cause. He had been her best friend for years, but he had cracked under strain and called her names. That had never been on the agenda. She was hurt, and she threw his friendship back in his face. The boy who had once told her that she was amazing, and had alerted her to her powers, was gone, replaced with a hopeless Dark Arts fanatic with a penchant for casting harmful and corrupt spells.

As Dumbledore commented, sometimes perhaps the Sorting Hat sorts too soon. Snape, whose outstanding bravery (none can deny it) fitted right in with Gryffindor,but because of the bitterness of his family, ende dup in Slytherin, probably out of sheer willpower. It was probably what his mother wanted.

We know now that Snape wished to be in Slytherin and hoped Lily would too, when they were talking in the train. Lily was sorted first and got into Gryffindor. Why didn't Snape who was brave and could have gone into Gryffindor too, decide to do so? He could have been with the only friend he ever had and not lost her because of his death-eater pals...

I actually have a sort of funny relationship with this ship. Sometime after GoF it suddenly hit me "Whooooaaa, what if Snape was in love with Lily?!" and like everyone else I ran to start a new thread with my "revolutionary,' 'new,' theory. :p

A week later I had discarded it as "way too soap-opera" and as more and more people theorized and fan-ficced about it, I became more and more opposed to the possibility.

Then HBP came out, and I was forced to admit that all the clues looked like they were trending that way. I went on making fun of the theory for my own amusement, but accepted that there was probably some link between Snape and Lily, and quite possibly he had been in love with her, though I considered it just as likely that it was only friendship (particularly on her side.)

The lovely thing is that JKR has--more often than this time--taken a scene I thought would be trite, corny, sickening and maudlin, and written it so that I adored it to the bone (instead of having the long-predicted retching attack.)

Which is why I begin to despair of publishing a book myself. :p

While I do think Slytherin suited Severus much better, considering Sirius said he was into the Dark Arts even in his first year, and Slytherin was where they would've appreciated his talents, when he really wanted to prove himself...

I don't think many students realize that they can make requests to the Sorting Hat. Harry doesn't notice Severus taking a long time; his Sorting seems to go quickly, so I don't think he was having a conversation with the hat the way Harry did. I doubt the Hat gave him the choice or even considered any house besides Slytherin.

Dumbledore did say maybe they Sort too soon. And there may have been a lot of truth in his statement: The Hat probably didn't take Sev's love for Lily into account when he was so young. It likely didn't realize he'd be able to do very brave things for her.

And this could be true for other students, who maybe would've made different choices if they realized they had the option, but maybe they didn't even have any real preference for a certain House at the time (in the case of Muggleborns and others raised by muggles, at least...the song alone might not give them a good enough idea).

We know now that Snape wished to be in Slytherin and hoped Lily would too, when they were talking in the train. Lily was sorted first and got into Gryffindor. Why didn't Snape who was brave and could have gone into Gryffindor too, decide to do so? He could have been with the only friend he ever had and not lost her because of his death-eater pals...

He was young and clearly didn't have his priorities straight yet...besides, he was only 11 yet, and probably not deeply enough in love to sacrifice what must have been part of his long-term dreams.

I think wanting approval from his family must have been important. No doubt he had grown up with a lot of propaganda about Slytherin, Mudbloods, and what a fool his mother had been to marry a Muggle, and he wanted acceptance by the Prince family. (His calling himself the half-blood Prince sort of argues for this.) I have a feeling that if we had a history f the Princes, it would be a tale of Pureblood supremacy.

Someone asked earlier in this thread -

he said "Look at me". Was that -- look at my memories, look at my life, look at me, look at who I am, look at all of my life, how I have been Dumbledore's man, at his side, all this time.
Or was it "Look at me" so that I can see Lily's eyes once more before I die?

I would say it was both. Mostly "I want to see Lilly's eyes" but also "look at my life, memories, choices etc".I thought it was just to see Lily's eyes. There was something important about the fact that Harry and Lily shared the same eyes, and it seems that Snape's loyalty depended on those eyes (as corny as it sounds). Snape grew to honestly have a dislike for Harry, even though it was Lily's son - it was also James' son - Harry was a young James to Snape except for the eyes. So in his dying moment when he had spill his memories out to Harry, and he knew he was going to die, he wanted to see the eyes of the person he had loved for his entire life.

He was young and clearly didn't have his priorities straight yet...besides, he was only 11 yet, and probably not deeply enough in love to sacrifice what must have been part of his long-term dreams.

I think wanting approval from his family must have been important. No doubt he had grown up with a lot of propaganda about Slytherin, Mudbloods, and what a fool his mother had been to marry a Muggle, and he wanted acceptance by the Prince family. (His calling himself the half-blood Prince sort of argues for this.) I have a feeling that if we had a history f the Princes, it would be a tale of Pureblood supremacy.
I agree, but I also don't think Snape knew that the Sorting Hat takes the wearers own want into consideration. Once Lily got sorted he thought- that was it, there was no way they would be in the same house - not to try and get in the same house as her.

I thought it was just to see Lily's eyes. There was something important about the fact that Harry and Lily shared the same eyes, and it seems that Snape's loyalty depended on those eyes (as corny as it sounds). Snape grew to honestly have a dislike for Harry, even though it was Lily's son - it was also James' son - Harry was a young James to Snape except for the eyes. So in his dying moment when he had spill his memories out to Harry, and he knew he was going to die, he wanted to see the eyes of the person he had loved for his entire life.

I think the "look at my life and everything I've done" idea could apply at the same time, though...possibly. Severus could've been saying, "Look, Lily, look at everything I've done for you." But Lily's not there, so he can only see her through Harry.

I couldn't believe that Lily and Snape had been best friends at Hogwarts! I thought that maybe there was a mutual acceptance/likeness for eachother, but nothing big. Then to find out they were friends, best friends even, for a number of years was something no one could have predicted!
I don't know if anyone here listens to mugglecast but on a recent live podcast a woman in the audience said that Snapes love for Lily was also a possessive/obsessive one. Which I agree. Look at how he began watching her and hiding behind bushes like a stalker at such a young age, and then the time they argued, he told her he wouldn't LET her do/think something, which is sort of like a command. So while I do believe Snape loved her as much as his upbringing can allow him to love someone, he was also a bit possessive. Plus Snape had loved her through the endless years, probably showing no interest in another woman after her. Either thats true love, or just obsessive, as others would say. He can't let go of his love for her. Just as he stubbornly can't let go of his resentment for James, spilling it through Harry.
And as someone said before, he picked the Dark Arts over her. I'm guessing if he had stopped hanging around with the Death Eaters his relationship with Lily would have been less strained, and they wouldn't have arguements.
But you have to give them credit. When was the last time Hogwarts has seen a relationship between Gryffindor and Slytherin? I mean a really good one. It's an unnamed rule that students from those houses loathe eachother. I'm sure Lily and Snape got pressure from both sides to stop hanging around with an unworthy student.

I actually was convinced that Snape loved Lily since I had read a theory on it, so it wasn't much of a surprise to me.

For me either! Just to think that Snape would insult James, Sirius and Lupin and never a word about Lily. But I was surprised to find out about their friendship. How could Snape call her a Mudblood, even if he was upside down at that time? If he loved her? He should have thought of the concequences!

To me the Snape and Lily relationship was really unexpectable but it was also very interesting.If Lily was friends with Snape then surely that means that Snape had some good traits but it is still suprising how they continued to hang out when Snape started to show itnerest in the Dark Arts.Though, their friendship must have ended when Snape called her a mudblood.

It did end. Thats why it was Snape's worst memory as noted in HBP

Look at how he began watching her and hiding behind bushes like a stalker at such a young age, and then the time they argued, he told her he wouldn't LET her do/think something, which is sort of like a command.
...He was a shy little boy watching a couple of girls on swings. That doesn't scream stalker to me.

And he backtracked the second he said the wouldn't let her thing. I believe in the context he was saying that he wouldn't let her make a fool out of herself (oh Snape :p) rather than I won't let you anywhere near Potter so...I guess it was sort of caring...And I think Snape knew he couldn't command Lily to do something even if he tried. Lily is very headstrong and I sort of think that Snape was really worried about making her angry or upset (best friend factor but also, you know what they say about red heads! ;)).

I just really hope this obsession thing gets cleared up in the JKR interview tonight or the Live Chat tomorrow. I think it's sort of sad that some have trouble comprehending Snape being in love once.

...He was a shy little boy watching a couple of girls on swings. That doesn't scream stalker to me.

And he backtracked the second he said the wouldn't let her thing. I believe in the context he was saying that he wouldn't let her make a fool out of herself (oh Snape :p) rather than I won't let you anywhere near Potter so...I guess it was sort of caring...And I think Snape knew he couldn't command Lily to do something even if he tried. Lily is very headstrong and I sort of think that Snape was really worried about making her angry or upset (best friend factor but also, you know what they say about red heads! ;)).

I just really hope this obsession thing gets cleared up in the JKR interview tonight or the Live Chat tomorrow. I think it's sort of sad that some have trouble comprehending Snape being in love once.

No it doesn't scream stalker. But little tidbits in the story seemed to imply that Snape took a habit of sneaking around watching Lily while trying to hide. Harry in the memory said something like he could tell that Snape had been working up to this moment where he wanted to reveal himself and tell Lily she was a witch. This implies he had watched her on several occassions before, observing her without her knowing and watching her "greedily" as Rowling put it. I don't mean to say that I think he was stalking her in terms of like 'hey-lily-i'm-gonna-stalk-you-and-follow-you-home-and-peep-through-your-bedroom-window-and-call-you-just-to-breath-heavy-and-hang-up' kind of stalking. But I do think he had a few stalker qualities to him before he became friends with her.
I don't think he thought he could really command her either, but he still lost his temper when James came up in the conversation and seems to sometimes be an "unfair arguer" as in someone who expects the other person to change without seeing any wrong on his part. He's very avid about how Lily sees James.
I do understand how some people think it unfathomable that Snape has ever loved, but remember while some call it love others call it obsessive. I remember reading the part where he said he would have slept out in the hall all night if he needed to just to talk to Lily, and I have no doubt he would have done so. This may be love but to some people it's a bit extreme to sleep out in the hallway at school where other students and teachers can come across him.

Major difference, though, between intelligence in life and intelligence in love. I doubt whether Snape really thought Lily loved him back, but I also doubt whether he really understood how to read a girl's feelings.

Bingo! It's called Emotional IQ. Some very highly intelligent people are complete morons when it comes to being able to understand the human heart. this is "not" directed to anyone in particular - although there are some people in my real life i could say this about LOL!

"For there is nothing less under our control than the heart - " -- Heloise, 10th centuary France


And people either get that or not. Thus this thread is 60+ pages long with people still arguing the obvious.

I also don't find it amusing that some can argue it wasn't real love b/c they never kissed or went out or what have you. Who is "anyone" to question one's choice in "love"? That's a "personal" choice! "No one" can stand there and tell "me" that my love for a certain person isn't "real love" because we've never gone out or kissed. That's absolutely ridiculous. That's like telling someone they are unsure in their eye color or unsure about whether or not they prefer the spring or the fall, whether or not they prefer heat or cold, whether or not they prefer fruity perfume or floral perfume, whether or not they like their eggs scrambled or poached -- it's a "personal" choice and "no one" not "anyone" can tell someone whether they are in love or not.

It is "very" possible to love someone unconditionally who does not love you back. Wars have been fought of this, buildings raised then razed, treaties signed and broken - the very world we live in has often turned on the whims of true love - unrequieted much of the time.

Actually, if we jailed all the nine-year-old boys who spy on girls as stalkers, 99% of the male population would probably grow up behind bars. :p

No it doesn't scream stalker. But little tidbits in the story seemed to imply that Snape took a habit of sneaking around watching Lily while trying to hide. Harry in the memory said something like he could tell that Snape had been working up to this moment where he wanted to reveal himself and tell Lily she was a witch. This implies he had watched her on several occassions before, observing her without her knowing and watching her "greedily" as Rowling put it. I don't mean to say that I think he was stalking her in terms of like 'hey-lily-i'm-gonna-stalk-you-and-follow-you-home-and-peep-through-your-bedroom-window-and-call-you-just-to-breath-heavy-and-hang-up' kind of stalking. But I do think he had a few stalker qualities to him before he became friends with her.
I don't think he thought he could really command her either, but he still lost his temper when James came up in the conversation and seems to sometimes be an "unfair arguer" as in someone who expects the other person to change without seeing any wrong on his part. He's very avid about how Lily sees James.
I do understand how some people think it unfathomable that Snape has ever loved, but remember while some call it love others call it obsessive. I remember reading the part where he said he would have slept out in the hall all night if he needed to just to talk to Lily, and I have no doubt he would have done so. This may be love but to some people it's a bit extreme to sleep out in the hallway at school where other students and teachers can come across him.
I agree. Excellent points. You know he was obsessive because he worked for everything he hated, and then died for it. Jo even said, if Snape hadn't loved Lily, he wouldn't have tried to save Harry. Snape was cruel, and the only thing that made him do any good was Lily.

Actually, if we jailed all the nine-year-old boys who spy on girls as stalkers, 99% of the male population would probably grow up behind bars. :p

:lol: I would need to be put there too for all the spying I did as a child. :whistle:

I didn't really have an opinion on the theory I didn't really pay any attention to it to tell you the truth. I think they would have had a stronger friendship had Snape been sorted into a different house. I think he would have had a smaller chance of hanging out with the kids who would go on to become death eaters I don't think Snape would've called Lily a mudblood had he been around people who didn't constantly talk like that.

They were very obviously "best friends" from at the very least the time they were around ten to the time they were around fifteen. Sure it was just a crush for Snape when they were little kids, but by the end of their friendship it could have easily blossomed into, at the very least, very serious teen love.

Heh.. there are many who would consider "serious teen love" to be an oxymoron, but again, that goes to how you define love I suppose. It just seems so out of context for Snape's character, although I'll admit he certainly showed some caring for Narcissa (and Draco) in "Spinners End". From that chapter, I'd assumed that, if anyone, Narcissa was the one he might have loved in the past ! D'oh.

Actually, if we jailed all the nine-year-old boys who spy on girls as stalkers, 99% of the male population would probably grow up behind bars. :p

****!! Great point! :lol:

I actually always thought that Snape loved her, mainly because I could see no other reason why he had so much loathing for James and was so jealous of him. However I never thought that they had been friends for so long, even best friends at times. That did shock me somewhat.

yeh i always kinda had a feeling but I just thought it was because he was jealous of potter to find out he was actually good in the end was no surprise really tho as albus dumbledore is never wrong and i miss sirius :(

I do understand how some people think it unfathomable that Snape has ever loved, but remember while some call it love others call it obsessive.
I think all love is a bit obsessive to be honest. The only problem I have is when, in the case of Snape and Lily, people just think he was obsessed with her and not in love with her.
I remember reading the part where he said he would have slept out in the hall all night if he needed to just to talk to Lily, and I have no doubt he would have done so. This may be love but to some people it's a bit extreme to sleep out in the hallway at school where other students and teachers can come across him.
Well, she was his best friend and I know many would do anything they can to mend a friendship. In this case, it was a more than friendship from Snape's side but I actually thought it was pretty sweet...a bit mental but love makes people a bit irrational so why should Snape's actions be any different?

Heh.. there are many who would consider "serious teen love" to be an oxymoron, but again, that goes to how you define love I suppose.
Considering all the major romances in HP start when they're at Hogwarts, "serious teen love" is sort of the norm in the HP-verse.

It kind of makes you wonder, though...Perhaps Snape wanted to be the anti-James? It's a bit farfetched, but Snape is rather the anti-James, isn't he? Perhaps he knew that Lily hated James, and in his quest for her, wanted to become the opposite of everything he was... I'm not sure if I even agree with this thought, but it is sort of interesting.

Heh.. there are many who would consider "serious teen love" to be an oxymoron, but again, that goes to how you define love I suppose. It just seems so out of context for Snape's character, although I'll admit he certainly showed some caring for Narcissa (and Draco) in "Spinners End". From that chapter, I'd assumed that, if anyone, Narcissa was the one he might have loved in the past ! D'oh.

My mother met my father at 17, married him at 20, and still lives with him. The father of my two children (then 18) started dating me shortly after my 17th birthday. We started living together 4 years later. (When I graduated university). The teen years are absolutely a time when 'serious' love can occur, even if in modern societies people are delaying having children and marrying to later in life compared to the norm 100 years ago. And, of course, the two lead romantic couples of the series all met each other at 10 or 11, and their loves grew out of these schoolday friendships.

Quote:

Actually, if we jailed all the nine-year-old boys who spy on girls as stalkers, 99% of the male population would probably grow up behind bars.

I would need to be put there too for all the spying I did as a child.
Let's think about this in an age-appropriate way, shall we? :) Because it is getting silly here.

:lol: Have you ever read the book "Harriet the Spy"? :rotfl: Or Nancy Drew? If Snape was a stalker, then they were also.

And then there are the kids in To Kill a Mockingbird, a book JKR has mentioned on her list of books all kids should read, and which she references in the statement about Snape that he was the "bravest man" that Harry ever knew, which is what Scout Finch says about her father. The character of Dill reminds me of young Snape:

"Early one morning we were beginning our day's play in the back yard. Jem and I heard something next door . . . We went to the wire fence to see if there was a puppy . . . instead, we found someone sitting looking at us. Sitting down, he wasn't much much highter than the collards. We stared at him until he spoke:
"Hey."
"Hey yourself," said Jem pleasantly.
"I'm Charles Baker Harris," he said. "I can read."

. . . Dill had seen Dracula, a revelation that moved Jem to eye him with the beginning of respect. "Tell it to us," he said. :lol:

Dill was a curiosity. . . . we came to know him as a pocket Merlin, whose head teemed with eccentric plans, strange longings, and quaint fancies."

(Then Scout wants to go to school, so she spies on the schoolyard)

"Hours of wintertime had found me in the treehouse, looking over the schoolyard, spying on multitudes of children through a two-power telescope . . . learning their games . . . secretly sharing their misfortunes and minor victories. I longed to join them."

(The return of Dill the next summer)

Dill was a villain's villain; he could get into any character part assigned to him, and appear tall if height was part of the devilry required. He was as good as his worst performance; his worst performance was Gothic. . . .

Jem was a born hero.

(The kids also spy on Boo Radley)


"Dill and Jem were going to simply peek in the window with the loose shutter to see if they could get a look at Boo Radley, and I didn't want to go with them I could go straight home and keep my fat flopping mouth shut, that was all. . . . "

"Beautiful things floated around his (Dill's) dreamy head. He could read two books to my one, but he preferred the magic of his own inventions. He could add and subtract faster than lightning, but he preferred his own twilight world, a world where babies slept, waiting to be gathered like morning lilies. . . ."

"(Dill) had asked me earlier in the summer to marry him, then he promptly forgot about it. He staked me out, marked as his property, said I was the only girl he would ever love, then he neglected me. I beat him up twice but it did no good . . . "

(Scout beat Dill up, not the other way around, ok? Scout is the girl.)

There is no doubt that Dill is a strange child, and he comes from a neglectful family, like Snape. He mentions that his mother drinks and sees snakes in the closet, and Scout's aunt accuses him of lying or being cynical. It turns out, he is just worried about his parents all the time and doesn't have a normal father like Scout and Jem, which is also like Snape.

Scout responds with sympathy to him, and she sees that he is a good friend and totally unique. I think that describes Snape and Lily as children.

Above all, he and Scout are best friends, and while I guess they "stalk" Boo Radley out of curiosity, they are just kids.

He only "grew" so much though. He was willing to do the right thing to help Harry defeat Voldemort but he'd be darned if he'd be nice to him along the way, lol.H
I won't argue that he was a complete emotional adult, but I think he grew more than he is given credit for. We only have Harry's perspective to say that Snape hated him. Yes, he hated James, and Harry reminded him of James, but as much as he loved Lily it is her loved that overpowered the hatred.

In public, Snape had to show hatred for Harry - that's what was expected of him, and most public moments were observed by other death eaters or their children. Then there's the private moments. I don't recall Harry having any private moments until the Occulomency lessons in Order of the Phoenix. At that point we knew Voldemort had access to Harry's mind - and to keep his cover Snape couldn't afford Harry thinking anything positive about him. Perhaps if Harry had been successful, Snape could have treated him differently, we don't know. Snape could have used his hatred of James to mask his feelings toward Harry. If was true hatred of Harry, he would have been treated that much worse than the other Gryffindors - to me it appeared Snape "loathed" Harry about as much as Ron and Neville, other children of Voldemort's enemies.

We also don't know when Dumbledore pulled Snape back to the good side - was it before he left Hogwarts (after all Dumbledore did see what was happening, and lamented that it was a shame sorting occurred so early - he knew Snape could have been a Gryffindor). Or was is after the prophesy?

If it was after the prophesy, who taught him to block his mind so well? When was he taught? He obviously is extremely powerful if he can block Voldemort that well, but it doesn't seem to be something you would learn on your own or quickly. We know he was trusted by Dumbledore before Voldemort's fall, so it was either done right under Voldemort's nose, or before he even became a death eater.

And he backtracked the second he said the wouldn't let her thing.
Backtracked, or tried to cover his tracks? It seemed to me as if he betrayed a little too much when he said he wouldn't let Lily, then tried to pretend he didn't mean it when she protested.

Actually, if we jailed all the nine-year-old boys who spy on girls as stalkers, 99% of the male population would probably grow up behind bars. :p

As it should be. :agree: Lol

I won't argue that he was a complete emotional adult, but I think he grew more than he is given credit for. We only have Harry's perspective to say that Snape hated him. Yes, he hated James, and Harry reminded him of James, but as much as he loved Lily it is her loved that overpowered the hatred.

In public, Snape had to show hatred for Harry - that's what was expected of him, and most public moments were observed by other death eaters or their children. Then there's the private moments. I don't recall Harry having any private moments until the Occulomency lessons in Order of the Phoenix. At that point we knew Voldemort had access to Harry's mind - and to keep his cover Snape couldn't afford Harry thinking anything positive about him. Perhaps if Harry had been successful, Snape could have treated him differently, we don't know. Snape could have used his hatred of James to mask his feelings toward Harry. If was true hatred of Harry, he would have been treated that much worse than the other Gryffindors - to me it appeared Snape "loathed" Harry about as much as Ron and Neville, other children of Voldemort's enemies.

We also don't know when Dumbledore pulled Snape back to the good side - was it before he left Hogwarts (after all Dumbledore did see what was happening, and lamented that it was a shame sorting occurred so early - he knew Snape could have been a Gryffindor). Or was is after the prophesy?

If it was after the prophesy, who taught him to block his mind so well? When was he taught? He obviously is extremely powerful if he can block Voldemort that well, but it doesn't seem to be something you would learn on your own or quickly. We know he was trusted by Dumbledore before Voldemort's fall, so it was either done right under Voldemort's nose, or before he even became a death eater.

I agree. I do think that he turned back after the prophecy was made; it seemed that that was implied in the first scene between Snape and Dumbledore in the pensieve.

Backtracked, or tried to cover his tracks? It seemed to me as if he betrayed a little too much when he said he wouldn't let Lily, then tried to pretend he didn't mean it when she protested.

Poor Snape, even from the beginning, he was messing things up with Lily. He never really stood a chance, especially with the type of "love" he saw at home.

A hat doesn't understand love.
This is why I think he was placed in Slytherin. Everything except his love for her outlines it.

And it was almost definitely after the prophecy was released. Bitter and coldhearted, Snape gave himself fully to the dark arts and left his love far behind. Then he heard the prophecy, delivered word to Voldemort, begged him to spare Lily (and it seems he was willing to as an offer to Snape, his faithful follower), and finally went home to Dumbledore, completely a broken and desperate man.

Dumbledore was rightfully contemptuous of this man, crying in front of him, having lost everything (had he anything to lose, other than her?), and had given in to the circumstance expected of him in his childhood and school years.

It's quite ironic that Snape, the man who killed Dumbledore, Voldemort's most trusted Servant, so much so that he wasn't a servant at all actually, was capable all along of loving so deeply, exactly as Harry was.

The hat, being a hat, didn't see it.

See, hats can't see, they are blind.
(Sorry, had to go for the gag....)

In public, Snape had to show hatred for Harry - that's what was expected of him, and most public moments were observed by other death eaters or their children. Then there's the private moments. I don't recall Harry having any private moments until the Occulomency lessons in Order of the Phoenix. At that point we knew Voldemort had access to Harry's mind - and to keep his cover Snape couldn't afford Harry thinking anything positive about him. Perhaps if Harry had been successful, Snape could have treated him differently, we don't know. Snape could have used his hatred of James to mask his feelings toward Harry. If was true hatred of Harry, he would have been treated that much worse than the other Gryffindors - to me it appeared Snape "loathed" Harry about as much as Ron and Neville, other children of Voldemort's enemies.

Truthfully, I can see where you can get this arguement from, Snape was always as unpleasent to Harry was he was to Neville and Ron, especially poor Neville. But, to be honest that still doesn't change the fact that he hated Harry, does it? I mean, I don't really think it's true that Snape was only ever horrible to Harry in Occluemency. What about in book three when he caught Harry sneaking off to Hogsmeade? How about in the second book when he wanted to have Harry expelled from Hogwarts for flying the car and looked as if "Christmas had been canceled" when that didn't happen? How about all those endless detentions? I think it's fair to say that Snape only ever wanted Harry alive for Lily's death to not have been in vain. Other than that, Harry was James' son, and Snape cared for him in the end as much as when he told Voldemort about the prophecy and said that he could kill James and Harry but please spare Lily. I'm sure she'd have loved to know that, btw.

...and I do wonder why Harry named his child after Snape. Bet James would have LOVED that.


We also don't know when Dumbledore pulled Snape back to the good side - was it before he left Hogwarts (after all Dumbledore did see what was happening, and lamented that it was a shame sorting occurred so early - he knew Snape could have been a Gryffindor). Or was is after the prophesy?

I think that once Snape realized who it was he had just sent Voldemort after he started questioning his side. Though maybe the decision to work for Harry's benefit only happened after Lily had died to save him? That's what I got from the book anyway.


If it was after the prophesy, who taught him to block his mind so well? When was he taught? He obviously is extremely powerful if he can block Voldemort that well, but it doesn't seem to be something you would learn on your own or quickly. We know he was trusted by Dumbledore before Voldemort's fall, so it was either done right under Voldemort's nose, or before he even became a death eater.

Ah well you see, I think that Snape is, and always has been an extremely talented wizard. I don't think he just learned how to master his spells with Dumbledore- he probably knew most of it already? Remember how Dumbledore needed his help to get better after the ring had cursed him? Snape must have even known stuff Dumbledore didn't. That's why he's so intrigueing...he could have easily fooled either Voldemort or Dumbledore.

^He knew potions.

I doubt he could've fooled Dumbledore very well.

Backtracked, or tried to cover his tracks? It seemed to me as if he betrayed a little too much when he said he wouldn't let Lily, then tried to pretend he didn't mean it when she protested.
Maybe he was close to really showing that he liked her?

Truthfully, I can see where you can get this arguement from, Snape was always as unpleasent to Harry was he was to Neville and Ron, especially poor Neville. But, to be honest that still doesn't change the fact that he hated Harry, does it? I mean, I don't really think it's true that Snape was only ever horrible to Harry in Occluemency. What about in book three when he caught Harry sneaking off to Hogsmeade? How about in the second book when he wanted to have Harry expelled from Hogwarts for flying the car and looked as if "Christmas had been canceled" when that didn't happen? How about all those endless detentions? I think it's fair to say that Snape only ever wanted Harry alive for Lily's death to not have been in vain. Other than that, Harry was James' son, and Snape cared for him in the end as much as when he told Voldemort about the prophecy and said that he could kill James and Harry but please spare Lily. I'm sure she'd have loved to know that, btw.

...and I do wonder why Harry named his child after Snape. Bet James would have LOVED that.

This is what Jo said about Snape on Dateline NBC:
Meanwhile, the seemingly villainous Severus Snape -- the wizard who killed Dumbledore before Harry's eyes -- shows a somewhat more heroic side in the final book.
J.K. Rowling: Snape is a complicated man.* He's bitter. He's … spiteful.* He's a bully.* All these things are still true of Snape, even at the end of this book.* But was he brave?* Yes, immensely.
Was he capable of love?* Very definitely.* So he's-- he's a very-- he was a flawed human being, like all of us.
Harry forgives him--- as we know, from the epilogue, Harry-- Harry really sees the good in Snape ultimately. I wanted there to be redemption and I wanted there to be forgiveness.* And Harry forgives, even knowing that until the end Snape loathed him unjustifiably. it's totally, totally unfair that he loathes him so much but anyway.


Harry (and Ginny!) giving their second son the middle name of Severus shows their ability to forgive and to see the good in Snape. However, it also makes it clear that Snape always hated Harry.

I was saying that after I read book one and I know I wasn't the only one. My friends and I joked about it. But book one was actually the second book I read so I knew a fair bit about Snape while I as reading it. COS didn't have any Snape and LIly clues but if you read it before book one, you started to think: just what is this guys's problem anyway.I didnt catch on I guess until what....book 5 I think? (Snape's worst memory)? But yeah, i do feel somewhat vindicated that I at least got something right. It felt good especially since I'd been wrong about so many other bits. :)

The lovely thing is that JKR has--more often than this time--taken a scene I thought would be trite, corny, sickening and maudlin, and written it so that I adored it to the bone (instead of having the long-predicted retching attack.)

Which is why I begin to despair of publishing a book myself. She's certainly raised the bar for the rest of us hasnt she? ;)

For me either! Just to think that Snape would insult James, Sirius and Lupin and never a word about Lily. But I was surprised to find out about their friendship. How could Snape call her a Mudblood, even if he was upside down at that time? If he loved her? He should have thought of the concequences!Perhaps he was just hurt and embarrassed that he was completely helpless in front of her and she had to come running to defend him. He shouldhave thanked her, but was probably too immature at the time. (Maybe he never grew out of that immaturity). :)

This is what Jo said about Snape on Dateline NBC:
Meanwhile, the seemingly villainous Severus Snape -- the wizard who killed Dumbledore before Harry's eyes -- shows a somewhat more heroic side in the final book.
J.K. Rowling: Snape is a complicated man.* He's bitter. He's … spiteful.* He's a bully.* All these things are still true of Snape, even at the end of this book.* But was he brave?* Yes, immensely.
Was he capable of love?* Very definitely.* So he's-- he's a very-- he was a flawed human being, like all of us.
Harry forgives him--- as we know, from the epilogue, Harry-- Harry really sees the good in Snape ultimately. I wanted there to be redemption and I wanted there to be forgiveness.* And Harry forgives, even knowing that until the end Snape loathed him unjustifiably. it's totally, totally unfair that he loathes him so much but anyway.


Harry (and Ginny!) giving their second son the middle name of Severus shows their ability to forgive and to see the good in Snape. However, it also makes it clear that Snape always hated Harry.I'm glad you posted that because I think some folks believe that Snape's torment of Harry was just an act. That somehow he had to act cruel to Harry to maintain his cover. But Snape did actually loath Harry and I'm glad Jo said that. :)

I had a feeling that Snape and Lily might be friends as suck kinds of theory had been laid down here at cos forums...but i never imagined him to be obsessively in love with her...it sounded sweet but a bit weird too..i mean we never saw that side of snape:S...shocked me!

i remember writing about snape loving lily and his feelings of remorse at her death in the why voldemort would have spared lily thread before hallows.
hehe i was sooo right!

I'm starting to think that the first potions class was a sort of test for Harry. Lily had been a whiz at potions, and had been clearly interested in learning all she could about the wizarding world ahead of time.

If Harry had been able to answer any of Snape's questions (and showed he was brainy rather than brawny) maybe Snape would have seen that there was some of Lily in him after all, and the whole relationship would have been different.

This is what Jo said about Snape on Dateline NBC:
Meanwhile, the seemingly villainous Severus Snape -- the wizard who killed Dumbledore before Harry's eyes -- shows a somewhat more heroic side in the final book.
J.K. Rowling: Snape is a complicated man.* He's bitter. He's … spiteful.* He's a bully.* All these things are still true of Snape, even at the end of this book.* But was he brave?* Yes, immensely.
Was he capable of love?* Very definitely.* So he's-- he's a very-- he was a flawed human being, like all of us.
Harry forgives him--- as we know, from the epilogue, Harry-- Harry really sees the good in Snape ultimately. I wanted there to be redemption and I wanted there to be forgiveness.* And Harry forgives, even knowing that until the end Snape loathed him unjustifiably. it's totally, totally unfair that he loathes him so much but anyway.


Harry (and Ginny!) giving their second son the middle name of Severus shows their ability to forgive and to see the good in Snape. However, it also makes it clear that Snape always hated Harry.

Thank you very much for that! I wa right about the forgiveness being a theme then, and I'm very glad. It just says everything there is to be said about Snape - he was a flawed human being like all of us, but he was immensely brave. AND Harry forgave him, even though he could have kept the grudge. Just goes to show how great Harry is.

I feel that when the branch fell on Petunia in Snape's memories it may have just been a case of accidental magic - like when Harry let loose the python on Dudley. An unschooled wizard not holding a wand making a tree break in a controlled fashion and hit someone on purpose sounds suspect to me. I'm not convinced Snape would have hurt her on purpose due to his desire for Lily to like him.

Jaclyn: Did lily ever have feelings back for snape

J.K. Rowling: Yes. She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts.

:D

Also...

Rachel Nell: Jkr, thank you for such amazing books! I would like to know how come noone seemed to know that lily and snape were friends in school they were obviously meeting for chats, etc didnt james know their past
J.K. Rowling: Thank you for your thank you!
J.K. Rowling: Yes, it was known that they were friendly and then stopped being friends. Nothing more than that would be widely known.
J.K. Rowling: James always suspected Snape harboured deeper feelings for Lily, which was a factor in James' behaviour to Snape.

So...Snape/Lily/James love triangle!

Thoughts?

Also, we found out that Snape was very careful about his patronus and that he went to Grimauld place right after he killed Dumbledore.

Oh, AND she considers Snape to be an anti-hero :)

Jaclyn: Did lily ever have feelings back for snape

J.K. Rowling: Yes. She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts.

:D

Also...

Rachel Nell: Jkr, thank you for such amazing books! I would like to know how come noone seemed to know that lily and snape were friends in school they were obviously meeting for chats, etc didnt james know their past
J.K. Rowling: Thank you for your thank you!
J.K. Rowling: Yes, it was known that they were friendly and then stopped being friends. Nothing more than that would be widely known.
J.K. Rowling: James always suspected Snape harboured deeper feelings for Lily, which was a factor in James' behaviour to Snape.

So...Snape/Lily/James love triangle!

Thoughts?

Also, we found out that Snape was very careful about his patronus and that he went to Grimauld place right after he killed Dumbledore.

Oh, AND she considers Snape to be an anti-hero :)

I think that's wonderful, those are some absolutely wonderful comments. Snape's story is just so bittersweet, much much more bitter than sweet, and I think it's wonderful to know that at least Lily loved him as a friend, because sometimes you can be best friends with someone and never really love them so I think that's great. And also the love triangle thing is very nice, it's a bit sad that Snape's the one that lost her, but in all fairness he dug that grave.

Here is an even sadder bit, RWG:Nithya: Lily detested mulciber,averyif snape really loved her,why didnt he sacrifice their company for her sake

J.K. Rowling: Well, that is Snape's tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive.

J.K. Rowling: He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.

I sort of think it's sad, sweet, amusing, and idiotic at the same time. I always had a feeling Snape didn't join becuase he was racist but rather because he wanted respect and to fit in...but to think Lily would be impressed by it is just so...USE YOUR HEAD, SNAPE! They wanted to KILL people like Lily :lol:

Here is an even sadder bit, RWG:Nithya: Lily detested mulciber,averyif snape really loved her,why didnt he sacrifice their company for her sake

J.K. Rowling: Well, that is Snape's tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive.

J.K. Rowling: He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.

I sort of think it's sad, sweet, amusing, and idiotic at the same time. I always had a feeling Snape didn't join becuase he was racist but rather because he wanted respect and to fit in...but to think Lily would be impressed by it is just so...USE YOUR HEAD, SNAPE! They wanted to KILL people like Lily :lol:

I think Snape just wanted to prove to her that he could be somebody, not just what his childhood had suggested, a poor guy with nothing to his name, who always looked ridiculous, who never fitted in, who was never any good at anything, who was hopeless with everythnig, and who just wanted to impress.

Oh, I understand, I just think that Snape doesn't really think things through all the way very well. Another example of that is Snape listening to Sirius during the Werewolf incident but that would be off topic so I'll end that there.

Anyway, I guess that just makes Snape even more human :( It's sad that he really tried his best to be with Lily but all of his methods just made them fall further and further apart. The REALLY sad thing is that Snape probably really didn't even need to do any of that to impress Lily because she cared about him all the same!

I think Snape just wanted to prove to her that he could be somebody, not just what his childhood had suggested, a poor guy with nothing to his name, who always looked ridiculous, who never fitted in, who was never any good at anything, who was hopeless with everythnig, and who just wanted to impress.And in fact his trying to impress Lily and win her over was exactly what pushed her away and led to his suffering through life.

I am glad to see she has answered the question about Snape/Lily. So Lily could have loved Snape romantically. I was also glad to see her answer the one about James/Snape/Lily interesting. :)

And in fact his trying to impress Lily and win her over was exactly what pushed her away and led to his suffering through life.

And is exactly what James did to impress her as well.

And is exactly what James did to impress her as well.
And in the end she ended up with James, not because his means of impression were better, but because he changed. Snape thought after Lily said they couldn't be friends anymore that there was nothing he could do. He could have changed and Jo even confirmed that Lily could have returned the love romantically. But Lily went for the friend who in the end changed his ways for the better.

I'm starting to think that the first potions class was a sort of test for Harry. Lily had been a whiz at potions, and had been clearly interested in learning all she could about the wizarding world ahead of time. If Harry had been able to answer any of Snape's questions (and showed he was brainy rather than brawny) maybe Snape would have seen that there was some of Lily in him after all, and the whole relationship would have been different.

I think it'd also difficult to see the Lily in Harry when he outwordly appears so much like James.

Lord_Godric and vampiricduck I agree. Snape didn't know how to get Lily, he wanted her to be his, but, it was not 'desire' as Voldemort claimed. He thought that the only way to impress her was to become powerful, to show that he was a great wiard, but that really wasn't Lily was looking for. If he had just been himself, and just told Lily how he felt, things would have been completely different.

Oh, I understand, I just think that Snape doesn't really think things through all the way very well. Another example of that is Snape listening to Sirius during the Werewolf incident but that would be off topic so I'll end that there.

Anyway, I guess that just makes Snape even more human :( It's sad that he really tried his best to be with Lily but all of his methods just made them fall further and further apart. The REALLY sad thing is that Snape probably really didn't even need to do any of that to impress Lily because she cared about him all the same!

Am I alone in thinking this isn't the saddest thing possible? Love is had, love is not returned, and that is life. It happens to people every day. I think Snape's obsession was more unhealthy than sad.

I think it'd also difficult to see the Lily in Harry when he outwordly appears so much like James.

Lord_Godric and vampiricduck I agree. Snape didn't know how to get Lily, he wanted her to be his, but, it was not 'desire' as Voldemort claimed. He thought that the only way to impress her was to become powerful, to show that he was a great wiard, but that really wasn't Lily was looking for. If he had just been himself, and just told Lily how he felt, things would have been completely different.
Exactly, and that is why Lily knew they had to part ways. I can imagine that for years she was telling him to leave the Dark Arts, stop playing in them, and then after Snape's Worst Memory she realized there was no hope. And she didn't immediately go for James. She started dating him a year later, so she didn't leave Snape to please James or anything she did it because that was not the person who she used to know, he was different and didn't know how to keep their friendship alive.

Am I alone in thinking this isn't the saddest thing possible? Love is had, love is not returned, and that is life. It happens to people every day. I think Snape's obsession was more unhealthy than sad.It wasn't an obsession, Snape was obsessed with the Dark Arts, and that is how he lost Lily's love. He then loved Lily after that, however, I wouldn't call this an obsession either, he just was never in the position to find another love, and because of that his love for Lily survived.

It wasn't an obsession, Snape was obsessed with the Dark Arts, and that is how he lost Lily's love. He then loved Lily after that, however, I wouldn't call this an obsession either, he just was never in the position to find another love, and because of that his love for Lily survived.

That makes sense. But why wasn't in the position to find another love? What else should he have done?

Snape was obsessed with the Dark Arts, and that is how he lost Lily's love. He then loved Lily after that, however, I wouldn't call this an obsession either, he just was never in the position to find another love, and because of that his love for Lily survived.

I disagree. Snape could have 'found another love', indeed that is just what Voldemort expected, and from the stories it seems that no one else expected Snape could love at all. Snape was judged by his appearance his whole life and eventually learned to live within those limits.

By the time he came to Hogwarts as a student, Severus Snape had been told in so many words by his family, the muggle world, and everyone he ever met, that he was too ugly, too graceless, too poor, too weird, to ever belong.

With one brilliant exception: Lily Potter. Severus never saw Lily the way he saw anyone else, because she thought and acted in a way no one else did. That's why, when his bitterness led him to lash out at 'mudbloods', he never thought how Lily would see it. That's why he was speechless, I think, when Lily confronted him - he simply had not thought that through. And the thought of losing what he had with Lily had simultaneously chilled him from ever taking the chance to tell Lily of his love for her, or to be willing to lose the hatred and anger which anchored his identity at Hogwarts, and at the same time when he realized he was losing Lily forever he was completely at a loss to know what to do.

Snape's life had three phases; trying to have Lily, trying to have her forgiveness, then trying to redeem himself to her. There was, literally, nothing else important to him.

That makes sense. But why wasn't in the position to find another love? What else should he have done?

He did exactly what he should have done - he agreed to help Dumbledore protect Harry. This means that he knew, in the long run, that he would be going back to the Death Eaters as a spy, when Voldemort returned. And this is why he was not in a position to find a new love.

That's not a situation I would be looking to start a relationship in. Telling any hypothetical love interest all that would expose her to great danger once Voldemort returned; not telling her would mean there would be a huge lie at the root of their relationship, and also that she would have to be someone who would be accepting of his apparent return to the Death Eaters, or he would be opening her up to a huge disappointment in him when he did return.

The possibility of someone else in his life was one of this things he gave up when he decided to try and make up for his past evil decisions.

When you love someone so deeply and you're not corresponded, when you lose that person because of your mistakes, even more when that person dies because of your mistakes, I think you feel so terribly bad, so miserable, that you're wounded for life.
Moreover, I think that nobody would have feel atraction for Snape in the good side and he wouldn't have fell the same for nobody in the bad side. It's like betraying Lily.

Yes I agree Oryx. To loose your love is one thing to cause her death is quite another.
(Will finish later)

ETA BAck now: I received a mailing from Barnardo's today which said "neglected young children rarely learn to develop approproate relationships as they grow older." Snape may have had relationship problems but they weren't of his own making. I really think that he didn't know how to behave "normally" towards Lily. Maybe with the right person he could have learnt to have an "appropriate" relationship, but any chance of that went completely out of the window when he caused Lily's death.

To loose your love is one thing to cause her death is quite another.
(Will finish later)

The remorse was so huge that he didn't mind risking his life or being misunderstood by his "mates" or seeing Harry everyday and remembering Lily or even worse for him, James. That was his way to say I'm sorry and expiate his guilt. I think that maybe he knew from the begining that he was predestined to die and see Lily "in other life"

One thing I don't get, is I was told that book seven would talk about why Harry having green eyes was important.....well I never read that anywhere in the book, so if I missed it by accident please tell me!

p.s. sorry that this isn't Lily & Snape related, but it seems to be on a hastus right now, so I thought I would throw this in.

Well the eyes were involved with Snape's last words to Harry (the "Look...at...me" but as well as the "green meeting the black" part) and ultimately dealt with the whole Snape/Lily relationship (Dumbledore mentioning her eyes right after she died).

I can understand how he didn’t find another love; some people only have one great love and if that person dies or they lose them in some other way. Sometime that person will not move on to find another love. The fact that Snape did have a small part in Lily’s death probably made him feel so guilty that he never felt he deserved to have another love. Even if Lily had not died I really don’t think he would have ever moved on and found someone else. Its just the way it is some people find love again , others do not.
One thing I don't get, is I was told that book seven would talk about why Harry having green eyes was important.....well I never read that anywhere in the book, so if I missed it by accident please tell me!

p.s. sorry that this isn't Lily & Snape related, but it seems to be on a hastus right now, so I thought I would throw this in.

His eyes were important because they were Lily’s eyes, the eyes of the woman that Snape loved. So despite that Harry looked like James whom Snape didn’t like, every time he saw Lily eyes it reminded him why he was doing it. Not for James, Harry or anyone else but for his beloved Lily. That’s why Snape wanted Harry to look at him before he died so he could see Lily’s eyes before he died.

I got the impression that it did have something to do with the fact that Snape loved Lily and was reminded of her by Harry's eyes.
I thought the whole Prince's Tale chapter was perfect. I couldn't believe how right I was about Snape and his relationship with Lily (I'm not trying to gloat or anything - I was really surprised :lol: )

I disagree. Snape could have 'found another love', indeed that is just what Voldemort expected, and from the stories it seems that no one else expected Snape could love at all. Snape was judged by his appearance his whole life and eventually learned to live within those limits.


Yes, Snape certainly could have 'found another love' but no one would come close to returning those feelings the way Lily did. Like you said his whole life was about Lily and that was because she came so close to returning those feelings, in a way that he thought no one else would. After he left Hogwarts he had a reputation 'the kid obsessed with the Dark Arts.' Sure he could have found love in someone like Bellatrix or Narcissa, but they would never have the same bond that Snape and Lily did. And I don't think Snape ever expected to find another love because if he did why would he have held on to his feeling for Lily?

What do you think about what JK said in the chat about Severus/Lily?

Did lily ever have feelings back for Snape?
J.K. Rowling: Yes. She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts.

I am glad that JKR explained that Lily could have loved Snape. That was the feeling I got when reading the Prince's Tale. It is just nice to know that someone could have loved Snape romantically and that he wasn't unlovable. I think that says a lot about his character and that there must have been something Lily saw in Snape she liked.

I think everyone has the ability to be loved. They just have to find the right person and accept it. Ever heard someone say "Let me love you." I think Snape's problem was once he had set his sights on Lily he closed himself from any and all other possibilities. Even after Lily died, he refused to look left or right. Similar to Voldemort. And Bella. They only had one focus in their lives. One thing that mattered, and anything else was unimportant. Snape:Lily, Voldemort:Immortality, Bella:Voldemort.

I was surprised by the fact he was in love with her. I thought they were friends...
But I had a theory, it's so surreal, that Harry was Voldemort's son :lol: and that was the reason why he could speak Parseltongue and everything.

I know there are a lot of people that were excited for this huge reveal about these two characters but personally, i thought that it was a tad creepy. I've read many fanfics about Lily and Snape and to me, it was just a fanfic; someone's hopes, but not something that would happen. Although, the fact that Snape's Worst Memory also involved Lily did kind of hint towards it. However, seeing everything in the wizarding world through Harry's eyes, it does feel creepy that this teacher loved your mother and did all these dangerous things for her sake. Also, the fact that i read SO many fanfics kinda ruined the story for me becasue it felt like ive heard it before.

BUT i didnt hate it. Actually, when Snape died and said his last words to Harry, I thought that it was beautiful and for the first time ever, I actually felt sympathy for Snape.

Oh yes. I always hated the Snape-Lily theories, because it meant Snape was good. Which I was steadfastly against. But I like how it was done. I didn't like Snape just up and having a crush on her. But the before Hogwarts stuff made it ok. And I didn't like the Snape is wonderfully good and working for the Order. So I'm glad I was at least right on that. He's not good. He just loved Lily and was brave for these few things. If he hadn't loved Lily, he would have been a Death Eater all the way. He never would have helped Harry, or anyone else. Jo made it ok for me, so I thank her.

Hi all,

first post here. I've been reading the books for years but felt I had to come on and say what a fantastic revelation this was. I thought the whole relationship between Snape and Lily was the great question answered: why was Snape mean to Harry?

What a torment for this man to be confronted with the eyes of the woman that he loved in the shell of the man that he despised!

During the whole time I have been reading the books I never could quite decide whether Harry or Dumbledore was right about Snape....friend or foe? To find out that it was his love for Lily that made him protect Harry right until the end and give his life has added a great dimension to this character, a depth that I never suspected.

I'm sure I won't be alone in re-reading the books to see the character in a different light right from the start

I know there are a lot of people that were excited for this huge reveal about these two characters but personally, i thought that it was a tad creepy. I've read many fanfics about Lily and Snape and to me, it was just a fanfic; someone's hopes, but not something that would happen. Although, the fact that Snape's Worst Memory also involved Lily did kind of hint towards it.
That's why the canon is always more important that fan fiction. I noticed in the chat some of the questions came from people confusing fanon with canon, such as the question about Ginny being the seventh child. That's not in any of the books.

I've always thought that too many people treat Lily disrespectfully in fan fiction. She is one of the true heroes of the story, and the reason Harry survived.

Plenty of us saw the Snape/Lily relationship as not only possible, but probable, based on SWM, his anger at Sirius in the Shack, and his negative view of James. Also, I never believed there was a Life Debt between Snape and James, and it turns out, there wasn't one. In fact, the Werewolf Prank happened before SWM, so saving Snape's life didn't mean that James had changed at all.

What Snape doesn't say is just as important. Even though Slughorn keeps getting sentimental about Lily in HBP, Snape avoids the subject. Snape never says one word about Lily, but seems shaken up when he sees Harry's memory of her during Occlumency. That is when Snape lectures Harry about not wearing his heart on his sleeve. Turns out, Snape was the one hiding all his love from the Dark Lord.

Before DH, no one believed that Snape and Lily might have studied Potions together either. While that isn't spelled out in DH, it's obviously possible, since they were best friends.

I was very, very glad that JKR said Lily could have loved Snape romantically, and actually did love him as a friend. He was her first link to the magical world, before her parents even knew that she would go to Hogwarts. They must have spent alot of time together every summer, in which case Snape was luckier than Harry at the Dursleys.

It's always weird to me to see fans of the books who don't haunt fan sites and forums...I always forget we're the minority. Snape-Lily seems like an old idea to me with new details.


Plenty of us saw the Snape/Lily relationship as not only possible, but probable, based on SWM, his anger at Sirius in the Shack, and his negative view of James. Also, I never believed there was a Life Debt between Snape and James, and it turns out, there wasn't one. In fact, the Werewolf Prank happened before SWM, so saving Snape's life didn't mean that James had changed at all.

What Snape doesn't say is just as important. Even though Slughorn keeps getting sentimental about Lily in HBP, Snape avoids the subject.

Before DH, no one believed that Snape and Lily might have studied Potions together either. While that isn't spelled out in DH, it's obviously possible, since they were best friends.

I never realized the no life debt with Snape-James thing. Thanks!

But people did think Snape and Lily might have studied Potions together. I didn't even consider the Snape-Lily connection until somebody brought up that. Why did Slughorn recognize Snape's work as Lily's? It was definitely brought up, as it planted a seed of doubt in my mind.

That's why the canon is always more important that fan fiction. I noticed in the chat some of the questions came from people confusing fanon with canon, such as the question about Ginny being the seventh child. That's not in any of the books.

I've always thought that too many people treat Lily disrespectfully in fan fiction. She is one of the true heroes of the story, and the reason Harry survived.

Plenty of us saw the Snape/Lily relationship as not only possible, but probable, based on SWM, his anger at Sirius in the Shack, and his negative view of James. Also, I never believed there was a Life Debt between Snape and James, and it turns out, there wasn't one. In fact, the Werewolf Prank happened before SWM, so saving Snape's life didn't mean that James had changed at all.

What Snape doesn't say is just as important. Even though Slughorn keeps getting sentimental about Lily in HBP, Snape avoids the subject. Snape never says one word about Lily, but seems shaken up when he sees Harry's memory of her during Occlumency. That is when Snape lectures Harry about not wearing his heart on his sleeve. Turns out, Snape was the one hiding all his love from the Dark Lord.

Before DH, no one believed that Snape and Lily might have studied Potions together either. While that isn't spelled out in DH, it's obviously possible, since they were best friends.

I was very, very glad that JKR said Lily could have loved Snape romantically, and actually did love him as a friend. He was her first link to the magical world, before her parents even knew that she would go to Hogwarts. They must have spent alot of time together every summer, in which case Snape was luckier than Harry at the Dursleys.

I can only say: Perfect! If my English were better I would like to say something like that:lol:

I might be only the second person to say this, but I think that the relationship was CREEPY. The entire thing played out like a romance novel and was kind of unbelievable to me. It had the feel of Disney love, not actual, real world love, which sometimes just doesn't pan out.

Life is about moving forward, loving (or hating) new people, having new experiences. Fawning over Lily for his entire life made Snape one of the most static characters in the book. I thought for sure there was some great, wonderful, mysterious reason that Dumbledore trusted Snape: turns out it was the fact that he was the same person he had been at 17. Even Lord Voldemort had more life experiences than Snape--and he was, in some ways, a lot healthier (he told Snape to move on, that there were plenty of fish in the sea)! You can say what you want about Snape being selfless, but loving someone for that long is anything but.

Lily moved on with her life and had a child with another man she loved. Snape did not give her his blessing or even pretend to be okay with her choices; in his mind, this was absolutely repulsive to him. He hated Lily's child with another man. What he didn't realize is that Lily was happy WITHOUT HIM. She wasn't spending her whole life pining about what could have been with that creep-o Death Eater Severus Snape, she was just fine. By hating James and hating Harry, Snape was hating the things that made Lily happy. If he could have, I'm sure he would have stolen her away from that life, which would have been the most selfish act of all. Snape didn't care about Lily's happiness, he didn't care about James or Harry, the people she loved. He only cared about his own unrequited love.

If you truly love someone, you will let them go when they move on. You will be happy that they have found happiness. And if you are healthy, you will seek to make yourself equally happy with someone who is right for you. You can wash your hair and hang around the Leaky Cauldron, you know, chill out with the Voldie supporters. I'm sure some witch would have thought that Snape was a bad boy.

The stuff of his memories seemed to be enough that I (were I Lily) would have wanted a restraining order. Like, excuse me buddy, that was high school. You're a grown man now, stop thinking about me, it's really freaking me out. There is nothing romantic or cute about obsessing over someone.

Here is an even sadder bit, RWG:Nithya: Lily detested mulciber,averyif snape really loved her,why didnt he sacrifice their company for her sake

J.K. Rowling: Well, that is Snape's tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive.

J.K. Rowling: He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.

I sort of think it's sad, sweet, amusing, and idiotic at the same time. I always had a feeling Snape didn't join becuase he was racist but rather because he wanted respect and to fit in...but to think Lily would be impressed by it is just so...USE YOUR HEAD, SNAPE! They wanted to KILL people like Lily :lol:

That is really sad. He never fit in anywhere else, so it makes a bit of sense why he turned to them, but still I think if he knew it meant losing Lily he would never have done it, which makes it that much sadder. He didn’t understand the consequences.

This is everything I culled from the live chat referring to Snape, lots of answers here! :)Laura Trego: Was the absence of snapes portrait in the headmasters office in the last scene innocent or deliberate

J.K. Rowling: It was deliberate. Snape had effectively abandoned his post before dying, so he had not merited inclusion in these august circles.
J.K. Rowling: However, I like to think that Harry would be instrumental in ensuring that Snape's portrait would appear there in due course.

Lechicaneuronline: Do you think snape is a hero

J.K. Rowling: Yes, I do; though a very flawed hero. An anti-hero, perhaps. He is not a particularly likeable man in many ways. He remains rather cruel, a bully, riddled with bitterness and insecurity - and yet he loved, and showed loyalty to that love
J.K. Rowling: and, ultimately, laid down his life because of it. That's pretty heroic!

Jaclyn: Did lily ever have feelings back for snape

J.K. Rowling: Yes. She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts.

Annie: Does the wizarding world now know that snape was dumbledores man, or do they still think he did a bunk?

J.K. Rowling: Harry would ensure that Snape's heroism was known.
J.K. Rowling: Of course, that would not stop Rita Skeeter writing 'Snape: Scoundrel or Saint?

Nithya: Lily detested mulciber,averyif snape really loved her,why didnt he sacrifice their company for her sake

J.K. Rowling: Well, that is Snape's tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive.
J.K. Rowling: He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.


Rachel Nell: Jkr, thank you for such amazing books! I would like to know how come noone seemed to know that lily and snape were friends in school they were obviously meeting for chats, etc didnt james know their past

J.K. Rowling: Thank you for your thank you!
J.K. Rowling: Yes, it was known that they were friendly and then stopped being friends. Nothing more than that would be widely known.
J.K. Rowling: James always suspected Snape harboured deeper feelings for Lily, which was a factor in James' behaviour to Snape.

Hannah: Why was snape so badly groomed

J.K. Rowling: Hmm. Good question. Poor eyesight? Did he look in the mirror and believe he was gorgeous as he was? J.K. Rowling: I think it more likely that he valued other qualities in himself!

Samantha: Was snape the only death eater who could produce a full patronus
J.K. Rowling: Yes, because a Patronus is used against things that the Death Eaters generally generate, or fight alongside. They would not need Patronuses.

jenny: How did snape keep his patronus secret from the rest of the order?

J.K. Rowling: He was careful not to use the talking Patronus means of communication with them. This was not difficult, as his particular job within the Order, ie, as spy, meant that sending a Patronus to any of them might have given away his true allegiance.

Lou: How did snape get into grimmauld place to get the second half of the letter, if there were protection spells on the house stopping snape getting in

J.K. Rowling: Snape entered the house immediately after Dumbledore's death, before Moody put up the spells against him.

It seems to me that all of Snape's knowledge of the wizarding world came from his mother's side of the family so I got the feeling that Snape was leaning towards Slytherine in the same way Draco was- because his Mother told him that was the place to be for whatever reason it was. Maybe she saw it as his only "escape" from his existence as well?

But like DD said they sorted him too soon.

If Snape had not been bent towards Slytherine - he might have ended up in Ravenclaw - or even Gryffindor- Wow. Things would have been different indeed. Tragic I agree.

I might be only the second person to say this, but I think that the relationship was CREEPY. The entire thing played out like a romance novel and was kind of unbelievable to me. It had the feel of Disney love, not actual, real world love, which sometimes just doesn't pan out.

Life is about moving forward, loving (or hating) new people, having new experiences. Fawning over Lily for his entire life made Snape one of the most static characters in the book. I thought for sure there was some great, wonderful, mysterious reason that Dumbledore trusted Snape: turns out it was the fact that he was the same person he had been at 17. Even Lord Voldemort had more life experiences than Snape--and he was, in some ways, a lot healthier (he told Snape to move on, that there were plenty of fish in the sea)! You can say what you want about Snape being selfless, but loving someone for that long is anything but.

Lily moved on with her life and had a child with another man she loved. Snape did not give her his blessing or even pretend to be okay with her choices; in his mind, this was absolutely repulsive to him. He hated Lily's child with another man. What he didn't realize is that Lily was happy WITHOUT HIM. She wasn't spending her whole life pining about what could have been with that creep-o Death Eater Severus Snape, she was just fine. By hating James and hating Harry, Snape was hating the things that made Lily happy. If he could have, I'm sure he would have stolen her away from that life, which would have been the most selfish act of all. Snape didn't care about Lily's happiness, he didn't care about James or Harry, the people she loved. He only cared about his own unrequited love.

If you truly love someone, you will let them go when they move on. You will be happy that they have found happiness. And if you are healthy, you will seek to make yourself equally happy with someone who is right for you. You can wash your hair and hang around the Leaky Cauldron, you know, chill out with the Voldie supporters. I'm sure some witch would have thought that Snape was a bad boy.

The stuff of his memories seemed to be enough that I (were I Lily) would have wanted a restraining order. Like, excuse me buddy, that was high school. You're a grown man now, stop thinking about me, it's really freaking me out. There is nothing romantic or cute about obsessing over someone.
Yes! Wholeheartedly agree. Snape is still a git to me.

Yes! Wholeheartedly agree. Snape is still a git to me.

Well it's not like he joined Dumbledore's side because it was the right thing to do or anything. He just did it because he was peeved that Voldemort had killed the woman he loved. Snape is definitely still an evil character in my book.

Well it's not like he joined Dumbledore's side because it was the right thing to do or anything. He just did it because he was peeved that Voldemort had killed the woman he loved. Snape is definitely still an evil character in my book.

I don’t think I’d describe it that way. I think he changed sides because the possibility of Lily’s death was a major wake-up call. It really led him to realize the difference between right and wrong; it just took a major loss to get that through to him.

I don’t think I’d describe it that way. I think he changed sides because the possibility of Lily’s death was a major wake-up call. It really led him to realize the difference between right and wrong; it just took a major loss to get that through to him.

He still did it for his own reasons. The death of all the people Voldemort killed didn't affect him, Lily telling him that she didn't approve of his activities didn't sway him: it wasn't until she was dead and he definitely didn't have a shot with her anymore that he suddenly slapped himself in the forehead and thought, "Gee... Voldemort killed my love interest of the last 20+ years, that dirty jerk... maybe I'm on the wrong side..."

Not that he should have been pining after Lily at that point anyway! She had a newborn and a husband!

He still did it for his own reasons. The death of all the people Voldemort killed didn't affect him, Lily telling him that she didn't approve of his activities didn't sway him: it wasn't until she was dead and he definitely didn't have a shot with her anymore that he suddenly slapped himself in the forehead and thought, "Gee... Voldemort killed my love interest of the last 20+ years, that dirty jerk... maybe I'm on the wrong side..."

Not that he should have been pining after Lily at that point anyway! She had a newborn and a husband!I think Snape could realize a lost cause when he saw one. There was no way to win Lily back after Snape's Worst Memory so he on the surface gave up.

Also Snape turned before Lily died, he never wanted Lily to die, and he knew Voldemort was after her so he switched sides in an attempt to save her, not because Voldemort had already killed her.

I think Snape could realize a lost cause when he saw one. There was no way to win Lily back after Snape's Worst Memory so he on the surface gave up.

Also Snape turned before Lily died, he never wanted Lily to die, and he knew Voldemort was after her so he switched sides in an attempt to save her, not because Voldemort had already killed her.


That’s right, we have canon proof that he switched sides when Lily was marked for death, not after she’d been killed. He went to Dumbledore for help, begging him to save her, swearing he would do anything.

Even before this book came out we knew he’d turned back before Voldemort’s downfall (AKA the night Lily and James died). Dumbledore told us.

Yes, I remember the Occam's Razor thread. It all made sense pre-DH, though I was unprepared for the emotional wallop that came with it. The Prince's Tale was incredibly moving and sweet and sad- my favorite part of DH, if not the whole series. I especially loved the use of the Silver Doe and the last page of the letter. I could cry again just thinking of it. That was the beauty of it. I knew it was coming, too: but I still was not prepared for the emotional wallop that chapter backed. In all honesty, it might be the single most excruciating chapter I ever have read: and I mean that in a good way. I had always thought that the idea that Snape and Lily knew each other early was a decent idea, but we never had any real good evidence for it. I never strongly advocated it, but I doff my hat to those who did: well predicted! In retrospect, it does simplify things greatly.

I had some problems with the plot of this book - in particular, I thought that Horcruxes plot did not work at all - but the story of this book more than made up for the lapses. However, "The Prince's Tale" in particular was the home run than more than made up for the strike outs!

Which is why it really doesn't make sense that he was sorted to Slytherin, not Gryffindor.. "sort too soon" or not (as DD said), the guy was supposedly the bravest of all , and yet didn't get sorted to Gryffindor. Hmm. I guess he and Pettigrew got mixed up by the sorting hat ! lol (Somebody put a cunfundus charm on that thing or what ?)Snape was enamoured of power and filled with a lot of hatred for people who had made his life miserable: in particular, it seems that he did not like his Muggle father very much.

What I really liked about this line is that Snape almost certainly had felt that the Sorting Hat had been wrong: but that it had been wrong in where it put Lily, not him! To hear Dumbledore basically parrot back something that must have become almost a fantasy to Snape but with such a "perverse" twist on it must have shocked Snape to the core.

What she says to Sev, first, when he tries to apologize for what he said, is to go into a rant about his 'precious little Death Eater friends'. She expresses the opinion that he, and they, 'can't wait to join You-Know-Who'. This is a repetition of, or really, an expansion on, her discussion with him in the earlier scene, in which she expressed her disapproval of Mulciber and Avery (two future Death Eaters, and apparenly among Sev's Slytherin friends). In that earlier conversation, Harry does not think Sev even listened to Lily - so quite possibly she felt that as well.Well, it came down to two different ideas of what the choice for the greater good is. Snape felt that Lily should disassociate herself from the other Muggleborns and side with him; Muggles clearly were no good (a view probably beaten into him by his Muggle father), and it was to the benefit of all (that counted, anyway) to have wizards rule. Lily felt the opposite. It really gets back to the issue of the greater good vs. the individual good: and Snape simply had the wrong ideas at that age. His ideals were a product, most likely, of his impoverished and abusive family.

Plenty of us saw the Snape/Lily relationship as not only possible, but probable, based on SWM, his anger at Sirius in the Shack, and his negative view of James. Also, I never believed there was a Life Debt between Snape and James, and it turns out, there wasn't one. In fact, the Werewolf Prank happened before SWM, so saving Snape's life didn't mean that James had changed at all.I, myself, was skeptical of Snape :love: Lily after just Snape's Worst Memory. Yes, it was possible, and there was the nagging detail that Snape never sloughed on Lily while attacking James, Sirius, Ron, Hermione and anyone else (but Dumbledore) of importance to Harry.

It was Prince that sealed the deal. Dumbledore basically tells Harry tacitly, through logical syllogism, what the score was. Of course, as Rowling does so well, the scene is ironic: many readers (as did Harry himself) interpret Dumbledore's pauses as Dumbledore reconsidering Snape when it was almost surely Dumbledore trying to work out what he could and could not say. After all, we had known since Goblet that the reason why Dumbledore trusted Snape was between himself and Snape.

Before DH, no one believed that Snape and Lily might have studied Potions together either. While that isn't spelled out in DH, it's obviously possible, since they were best friends.Now, that depends on what you mean by "no one." I seem to recall that quite a few people here argued that this might have been a basis for their friendship! Still, I do remember that there were a lot of people who were viscerally offended by the idea: I never had a good feel for whether they were the majority or not.
They must have spent alot of time together every summer, in which case Snape was luckier than Harry at the Dursleys.One thing that is in Snape's credit is that he never became completely embittered towards Lily. That certainly is a common result of this sort of thing. It is quite understandable that he would hate James and Harry: both are symbols of what could have been. However, if your significant other cheats on you, then most people wind up hating both the S.O and their paramour (in my experience!). This would be little different, yet Snape was willing to risk all for Lily. (OK, it would have been really swell if he'd given a rat's rear end about James or Harry, but, c'mon, I preferred Han when he fired first.....)

I think Snape could realize a lost cause when he saw one. There was no way to win Lily back after Snape's Worst Memory so he on the surface gave up. Actually, I do not think that Snape could do that. Unfortunately, Lily probably represented the only person about whom he really cared. Snape was not a healthy person emotionally. Even years later, Lily left such a strong impression on him that his Patronus was the same as hers.

Snape's love bordered on obsession: and it quite possibly was on the wrong side of the border! Still, it never turned to hatred, which is to his credit.

I'm sorry if this has been discussed in this thread already, but I did run a search and didn't find anything, so sorry if it has.

If I understood JKR correctly, the orginal killing curse Voldemort used on Harry backfired because Lily's sacrifice had put some kind of protection on Harry. However, according to JKR this only happened because Lily, unlike for example James, chose to die when she could have lived. Now that it has been revealed why Voldemort would have spared her, doesn't that ultimately mean that Harry only became the Boy Who Lived because of Snape's request to spare his mother? If that's true, Snape really did a lot more good than to "just" keep Harry safe after Lily's death... even if he didn't realise it.

Actually, I do not think that Snape could do that. Unfortunately, Lily probably represented the only person about whom he really cared. Snape was not a healthy person emotionally. Even years later, Lily left such a strong impression on him that his Patronus was the same as hers.

Snape's love bordered on obsession: and it quite possibly was on the wrong side of the border! Still, it never turned to hatred, which is to his credit.

I strongly disagree about it being an obsession and here is what I said before: It wasn't an obsession, Snape was obsessed with the Dark Arts, and that is how he lost Lily's love. He then loved Lily after that, however, I wouldn't call this an obsession either, he just was never in the position to find another love, and because of that his love for Lily survived.

As to whether he could see that Lily didn't love him, I think emotionally he clinged to Lily, but physically he felt there was nothing he could do. We were never shown him going to Lily and asking for forgiveness other than that one scene. Snape seemed to stop trying to win her back, although he still loved her.

I'm sorry if this has been discussed in this thread already, but I did run a search and didn't find anything, so sorry if it has.

If I understood JKR correctly, the orginal killing curse Voldemort used on Harry backfired because Lily's sacrifice had put some kind of protection on Harry. However, according to JKR this only happened because Lily, unlike for example James, chose to die when she could have lived. Now that it has been revealed why Voldemort would have spared her, doesn't that ultimately mean that Harry only became the Boy Who Lived because of Snape's request to spare his mother? If that's true, Snape really did a lot more good than to "just" keep Harry safe after Lily's death... even if he didn't realise it.

That’s a good point. He didn’t do that on purpose, but that is very true.

I strongly disagree about it being an obsession and here is what I said before:

As to whether he could see that Lily didn't love him, I think emotionally he clinged to Lily, but physically he felt there was nothing he could do. We were never shown him going to Lily and asking for forgiveness other than that one scene. Snape seemed to stop trying to win her back, although he still loved her.

I don’t even necessarily think it was because he never met someone else that he hung onto her; a lot of people just love someone they’ve lost forever. Especially a lover who’s died, it’s really hard to let go.

i always thought there was more to the story than had been revealed but never love towards Lily from Snape. i do believe that the relationship would still be the same even if they had been in the same house. I just cannot see the two of them getting together as more than friends. Perhaps the main reason Snape really loved Lily was the fact that she gave Severus a chance and took the time to be his friend when other people wouldnt.

So...Snape/Lily/James love triangle!
Don't forget that Lily didn't love Snape romantically - Jo said she could have grown to love him that way if he'd been different, but that she only loved him as a friend. But it certainly sheds some light on the Snape/James animosity!sometimes you can be best friends with someone and never really love them
Really? That had never occurred to me. Acquaintances, yes, but best friends are best friends - of course you love them ... don't you? :huh:USE YOUR HEAD, SNAPE! They wanted to KILL people like Lily
Yes - he wasn't the brightest button in the box in that respect, was he!And is exactly what James did to impress her as well.


Lily knew the difference, though, between horsing around and being evil. She tried to explain it to Snape, but he wasn't listening.And in the end she ended up with James, not because his means of impression were better, but because he changed.
That too. Which means Snape definitely would have had a chance if he'd been willing to change - but he wasn't - not even for Lily. :(

I don’t even necessarily think it was because he never met someone else that he hung onto her; a lot of people just love someone they’ve lost forever. Especially a lover who’s died, it’s really hard to let go.
I agree, but I also think it was because no other person could love Snape the way Lily did, and Snape knew that. Snape never went looking for love because he knew that no one would come as close to loving him the way Lily had.


That too. Which means Snape definitely would have had a chance if he'd been willing to change - but he wasn't - not even for Lily. :(But if Snape could go back and change it, I bet you would have. The ignorance of the young.

Really? That had never occurred to me. Acquaintances, yes, but best friends are best friends - of course you love them ... don't you? :huh:
:(

I don’t think that’s necessarily the case with people like Snape. He was obviously pretty isolated from people who were really nice to him aside from the future DE, who I doubt he loved or loved him in any sense. If it weren’t for Lily one of them would be his “best friend.” Draco’s “best friends” were Crabbe and Goyle, did it seem those three boys had any real affection for each other? That’s my point, simply because we heard Lily call Snape her best friend doesn’t mean she had real love for him. I was very glad to hear that she did.

I don’t think that’s necessarily the case with people like Snape. He was obviously pretty isolated from people who were really nice to him aside from the future DE, who I doubt he loved or loved him in any sense. If it weren’t for Lily one of them would be his “best friend.” Draco’s “best friends” were Crabbe and Goyle, did it seem those three boys had any real affection for each other? That’s my point, simply because we heard Lily call Snape her best friend doesn’t mean she had real love for him. I was very glad to hear that she did.I disagree, I think for a person like Snape a best friend is a rarity. If it wasn't for Lily he wouldn't have had a best friend at all. Because Lily was his best friend, that means he loved her. Now from Lily's POV; it was pretty obvious from the beginning scenes of them at Hogwarts that he had love for him as a friend, she was upset to be in Gyrffindor because Snape was in Slytherin, but for 5 years she remained his friend. Obviously she loved him as a friend, otherwise their friendship would have disintegrated as they were seperated for years.

I disagree, I think for a person like Snape a best friend is a rarity. If it wasn't for Lily he wouldn't have had a best friend at all. Because Lily was his best friend, that means he loved her. Now from Lily's POV; it was pretty obvious from the beginning scenes of them at Hogwarts that he had love for him as a friend, she was upset to be in Gyrffindor because Snape was in Slytherin, but for 5 years she remained his friend. Obviously she loved him as a friend, otherwise their friendship would have disintegrated as they were seperated for years.

I meant for the friends of people like Snape more than him himself. It was obvious Snape loved Lily, and of course it was likely Lily loved him back in a friends sort of way, but it was still quite possible she didn’t really love him.

I strongly disagree about it being an obsession and here is what I said before: Carrying a torch for a girl you met at age 11 when you are in your later 30's is obsession. I had a girlfriend at 11 and I do not even remember her last name! A normal person will have numerous girl/boyfriends, but Snape never got Lily out of his head. That is not normal. The inability to let go of something after so much time that is pretty much the definition of obsession. (It certainly is a good diagnosis!)

Carrying a torch for a girl you met at age 11 when you are in your later 30's is obsession. I had a girlfriend at 11 and I do not even remember her last name! A normal person will have numerous girl/boyfriends, but Snape never got Lily out of his head. That is not normal.

No, it's not an obsession. Maybe it's not normal in today's age when we are urged ever younger and younger to "date". Just "date". Why don't you just "date" and have fun? Just "date" him/her. And let's try and have as many sex partnersn and/or dates as possible b/c that means we're edgy and cool and that's what MTV wants us to do. Besides which in our culture we're able to meet many new people - it seems the wizarding world is fairly insular and wouldn't provide too many opportunties to happen upon new blood, so to speak.

It may not be normal but it's not an obsession. Obsession usually occurs when someone is attracted to someone they barely know and concoct a whole scenario and fantasy in their mind that usually winds up preventing the person to function in everyday life.

Carrying a torch for a girl you met at age 11 when you are in your later 30's is obsession. I had a girlfriend at 11 and I do not even remember her last name! A normal person will have numerous girl/boyfriends, but Snape never got Lily out of his head. That is not normal. The inability to let go of something after so much time that is pretty much the definition of obsession. (It certainly is a good diagnosis!) Snape met Lily when she was younger than 11, they knew each other before Hogwarts, and grew up with each other, they lived close to each other and were best friends. Do you remember your best friends from ages 9 - 15? Or your school mates from ages 11 - 17? Snape was hardly out of school when Voldemort targeted Lily, it brought back the memories of the girl he grew up with, his friend, the first person to show him love, and he did not want her dead. After she died he felt he had caused her death. If you had been the cause of the death of a friend of yours I doubt you could ever forgive yourself. It wasn't obsession, it was a particular matters of events that led to someone being unforgettable.

This isn't bragging but, J.K. Rowling: Yes. She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts.

I said the same thing many pages back. I'm using this just to back up my posts not to brag. Please please don't take it that way, mods.

It may not be normal but it's not an obsession. I agree, it wasn't normal, but it wasn't an obsession.

That's why the canon is always more important that fan fiction. I noticed in the chat some of the questions came from people confusing fanon with canon, such as the question about Ginny being the seventh child. That's not in any of the books.
Jo did mention it in an interview, though, and like many of her statements, fans grabbed hold of it, quoted it, and hoped it would be significant. I don't think Jo promised anything - she just said that Ginny was the seventh child of a seventh child and that this was deliberate.

Judging by this web chat, there are several things Jo said in passing which she has forgotten, or simply changed her mind about. Unlike us, she doesn't read and reread her interviews, taking notes!

I agree, it wasn't normal, but it wasn't an obsession.

Although I'm very annoyed with other things Jo said in the live chat, she never said Sev's love for Lily was an obsession! For which I am very grateful!

I had a girlfriend at 11 and I do not even remember her last name!
Snape's issue was that he was ill-equipped for love, and being both physically unattractive and with personality issues, no one else was interested in him. It's canon that Lily could have loved him if he'd been different, but he didn't seem to have ever had another female friend. So he had no one to replace Lily in his heart - no one to help him forget her. So his obsession grew, unhindered, probably increased by his feelings for James.

And yes, I'd say when Lily broke off their friendship and didn't love him in a romantic way anyway, Snape's love for her can be classified as obsession.

I was shocked!!!! i cant even begin to explain how my jar dropped to the floor as i read it .. i admit that i thought it was absolutely wrong that Lily and Snape would have been any where near friends, or that snape had been in love with lily. but oh my god, JK you got me .. i was so surprised to find out they knew each other before hogwarts, and that they had been friends for so long, but i cried my eyes out when i found out because snape died! he died and all he ever wanted was to protect the child of the love of his life even though he sometimes hated harry, but i guess it was becos he looked so much like James ... i cried when i read the part about him taking the second page of the letter where it said Love, Lily. i felt so sorry for him i really did..

I don’t think that’s necessarily the case with people like Snape. He was obviously pretty isolated from people who were really nice to him aside from the future DE, who I doubt he loved or loved him in any sense. If it weren’t for Lily one of them would be his “best friend.” Draco’s “best friends” were Crabbe and Goyle, did it seem those three boys had any real affection for each other? That’s my point, simply because we heard Lily call Snape her best friend doesn’t mean she had real love for him. I was very glad to hear that she did.
I guess that is a very different definition of "best friends" than mine. I'm not even sure Draco, Crabbe and Goyle were actually friends. They were cronies, and they stuck together because Crabbe and Goyle liked having a leader with the brains they lacked, while Draco needed a pair of obedient bodyguards. I won't let them pollute my definition of friendship!

Snape actually had a "best friend" in Lily, but he was too ignorant to appreciate that and he threw away the only real friend he had. :(

As far as the obsession thing goes it certainly wasn't a bad thing since it turned Snape's life around. I have to agree with others here though I think what Snape felt for Lily was real love. This wasn't just some girl he met and watched from afar. They knew each other well for years and this is where real feelings developed.

When Lily went and married James, Snape did not try and interfere and that says a lot. If Snape's feelings were unhealthy I believe he would have tried to do something.

I think when she died Snape just felt the need to right the wrongs he had done and in doing so dedicated his life to her memory. I wouldn't classify that as an obsession.

I think the Patronus and the beautiful description of how Harry understood what it was - and that it was Not Dark magic resolves the issue of whether or not Snape's love was true or not. It was PURE light! Period. I don't think JK could have made it clearer than that.

Despite Snape's demeanor or his feelings towards Harry- he knew true love and he lived by it.

That is why Dumbledore cried when seeing it. That is why the Death Eaters do not use Patronuses an why Voldy had no clue to the end about Snape's true loyalties. Voldemort could not even see it in Snape. Voldemort could easily manipulate an obsession - he manipulated Bella's lust, he manipulated Malfoy's obsession with Power- he manipulated, rage, fear, greed, lust, and all the other Death Eaters' obsessions. I think he initially wanted to let Lily live for this reason- to manipulate Snape- but she chose death and Snape learned what he truly felt in her loss. Voldemort could not recognize true love so he could not touch Snape. Period.

Carrying a torch for a girl you met at age 11 when you are in your later 30's is obsession. I had a girlfriend at 11 and I do not even remember her last name!

Leaving aside personal opinions, I disagree. Especially if the person you love at 11 is not only your one true love, but who becomes unttainable, first through circumstance, then through bad choices, then through death.

Obsession is when you can't stop talking about someone, when you demand your future girlfriends dress and act the same way as the girl you lost, not when you keep your love in your heart, true and pure. Not when you change to be more honorable and brave, in memory of your love.

Lily Evans/Potter, even after her death, helpd Severus Snape become an honorable and brave man. I cannot, for the life of me, imagine how his character growth must somehow be demeaned as "obsession" or otherwise dishonorable. No, he's not a saint, but he finished much, much better than he began, and that was because of Lily.

I like this definition of "obsessed": influenced or controlled by a powerful force such as a strong emotion; "by love possessed"

Personally, I see the adult Snape as haunted by what could have been but never was.

So maybe the question is- can an obsession be a part of true love?

I think some of the negative connotations with the word come from the idea that Snape was obsessed with an "Ideal" and not the real person of Lily who had her faults. But in my opinion Lily did have faults that Snape well aware of and accepted it anyway.

Another negative connotation with obsession is that an obsessed person wants to "possess" someone and control them. Snape seems to border on this when he says "I won't let you.." But he quickly backs down when Lily makes her point. it seems she could always put him in his place. Snape deferred to her- he did not expect her to obey him. He did not try to control her. He presented facts about James and his friends and let her decide.

A passionate teenager is going to be obsessive. I don't consider that a slight. Maybe obsession itself is not a bad thing but it depends on how it affects your life and your ability to carry on. As my friend with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder would say, everyone has obsessive traits, but it's not a disorder until it inhibits you're ability to function from a day to day basis. Snape had his moments but clearly he was functional as an exceptional student and after Lily's death he moved his feelings for Lily into a productive state.

The series of memories reveal a progression to me. From childhood longing for friendship and a peer, to a borderline possessive and very insecure young man, to a man who wanted her protection at all costs.

But then the broken down Snape-after her death He changed. He was able to see beyond Lily's position in his world and purpose for him to the purpose of protecting her son. After he learns that Harry also has to die he learns to see beyond Harry as "Lily's son" (he callesd her "Lily potter" instead of Evans) to the purpose of protecting all the things Harry stood for- the safety of the students- and even protecting Ginny personally by keeping her out of Hogsmead- all in the name of defeating the ultimate Evil.

After he learns that Harry also has to die he learns to see beyond Harry as "Lily's son" to the purpose of protecting all the things Harry stood for- the safety of the students- and even protecting Ginny personally by keeping her out of Hogsmead- all in the name of defeating the ultimate Evil.Snape's protection of Harry was all about keeping him safe for Lily, so perhaps he viewed the fact that Harry would have to die as his failing Lily once more.

I don’t think I’d describe it that way. I think he changed sides because the possibility of Lily’s death was a major wake-up call. It really led him to realize the difference between right and wrong; it just took a major loss to get that through to him.

If it was his wake-up call, why did he still do so much evil? I can see the arguments for being mean to Harry, but what about Neville? Hermione? "I don't see a difference."!!! That was so cruel. What about Wormtail? Sirius? What about the shower? He had no right to ignore the shower for so long. That was just down right vicious.

Isn't true love suppose to be requited?

That's how I thought of it. So maybe Snape isn't true love, but love.

Jo said she could have grown to love him that way if he'd been different, but that she only loved him as a friend.

COULD doesn't equal WOULD.

She could've loved him, she could've not loved him.

There's just a little possibility.

However I've always believed that Lily would've continued to love him as a friend, and not romantically.