Snape and Lily - the Relationship Revealed!

If it was his wake-up call, why did he still do so much evil? I can see the arguments for being mean to Harry, but what about Neville? Hermione? "I don't see a difference."!!! That was so cruel. What about Wormtail? Sirius? What about the shower? He had no right to ignore the shower for so long. That was just down right vicious.

to quote Hermine "Evil is a strong word" I don't see anything "evil" from Snape in his treatment of Hermione or Neville. We saw what Voldemort did, We saw what Umbridge did. We've seen how the Carrows did detention. We know what Evil is now- and Snape was not that.

I think it's interesting to quote young Snape when Lily asked him if it made a difference being Muggle-born. He hesitated then said, "No, there's no difference."

I think this cast a different light on his use of the phrase after the duel in GOF that hit Hermione by ricochet. Hermione is a muggleborn that mirrors Lily Evans. That duel was instigated by Harry and Draco. But Harry and Draco weren't hit- their friends were. The innocent bystanders.

After Draco points out his friends and Harry and Ron points out Hermione as if it made a difference- as if one victim was worse off than the other . Like all things Snape says throughout the series - this too can be read both ways- he did not differentiate- both Hermione and (goyle or crabbe?) were bystanders. So he says something that Draco the Death Eater's son can laugh at -and keep his cover as the Dark Lord returns - while not giving away the truth.

But in any event after all was said and done - Hermione is not psychologically affected by Snape's comment - she doesn't bring it up again, she still excels in his class and she is still the one to stand up for Snape in a logical argument in HBP and other books.

If it was his wake-up call, why did he still do so much evil? I can see the arguments for being mean to Harry, but what about Neville? Hermione? "I don't see a difference."!!! That was so cruel. What about Wormtail? Sirius? What about the shower? He had no right to ignore the shower for so long. That was just down right vicious.

That was bullying behavior, which we've already established cannot be denied, but evilness is very different.

The shower, on the other hand... you're quite right, that was definitely Snape's fault.

to quote Hermine "Evil is a strong word" I don't see anything "evil" from Snape in his treatment of Hermione or Neville. We saw what Voldemort did, We saw what Umbridge did. We've seen how the Carrows did detention. We know what Evil is now- and Snape was not that.

I think it's interesting to quote young Snape when Lily asked him if it made a difference being Muggle-born. He hesitated then said, "No, there's no difference."

I think this cast a different light on his use of the phrase after the duel in GOF that hit Hermione by ricochet. Hermione is a muggleborn that mirrors Lily Evans. That duel was instigated by Harry and Draco. But Harry and Draco weren't hit- their friends were. The innocent bystanders.

After Draco points out his friends and Harry and Ron points out Hermione as if it made a difference- as if one victim was worse off than the other . Like all things Snape says throughout the series - this too can be read both ways- he did not differentiate- both Hermione and (goyle or crabbe?) were bystanders. So he says something that Draco the Death Eater's son can laugh at while not giving away another truth.

But in any event after all was said and done - Hermione is not psychologically affected by Snape's comment - she doesn't bring it up again, she still excels in his class and she is still the one to stand up for Snape in a logical light in HBP and other books.
Carrows and Umbridge was unadulterated evil. Pure evil. Physical abuse. Snape was verbal and mental abuse. Some people say that's just as bad. I REALLY don't think that when Snape refused to let Hermione go to Madame Pomfrey's saying he didn't see a difference, that he meant she was the same as the other victim.

Snape didn't care that Lily was Muggle-born, but he knew it mattered. He lied to her.

That was bullying behavior, which we've already established cannot be denied, but evilness is very different.

The shower, on the other hand... you're quite right, that was definitely Snape's fault.Whats "the shower?"

That was bullying behavior, which we've already established cannot be denied, but evilness is very different.

The shower, on the other hand... you're quite right, that was definitely Snape's fault.
I think terrorizing children is evil. He was Neville's greatest fear. That's not just bullying. Dudley wasn't Harry's greatest fear.

Whats "the shower?"
An actual shower...how he never bathed...

If it was his wake-up call, why did he still do so much evil? I can see the arguments for being mean to Harry, but what about Neville? Hermione? "I don't see a difference."!!! That was so cruel. What about Wormtail? Sirius? What about the shower? He had no right to ignore the shower for so long. That was just down right vicious.As for Neville I think Snape hold a personal vendetta against him because his family could have been chosen over the Potter's and because of this Snape held a grudge against the Longbottom's.

As for Hermione, I don't know, she was a Gryffindor? She was very brainy, and could be annoying to a person who shouldn't be dealing with kids? Any number of reasons could add up to why he picked on her.

Isn't true love suppose to be requited?

That's how I thought of it. So maybe Snape isn't true love, but love.

I don't define true love as only the requited kind. If the ultimate love is unconditional than only loving those who return that love on equal terms is ruled out. I don't think that is the message JKR was going for.

ated evil. Pure evil. Physical abuse. Snape was verbal and mental abuse. Some people say that's just as bad. I REALLY don't think that when Snape refused to let Hermione go to Madame Pomfrey's saying he didn't see a difference, that he meant she was the same as the other victim.

Snape did not keep Hermione from going to MMe Pomfrey. He never said she couldn't go . He made his comment and she went on her own accord before he needed to tell her to do so.

Plus I would argue further that though Young Boy Snape indeed saw "no difference" in Lily being Muggleborn- however he hesitated because he knew that other wizards did see a difference- and he didn't tell her that. Snape was aware of the prejudice but didn't apply it to Lily.

This would be a bone of contention for her later because teen snape was unable to see how the Muggleborn issue mattered outside of her own existence.

Lol, we’re simply laughing at the fact that Snape seems to have neglected the shower for so long.

Anyway, I totally forgot when Bscorp said that! I remember now, though, and I think it’s exactly what he meant!

Snape/Lily relationship! That's the topic, not Snape's character or his hygiene.

Sorry! I always get confused, I can't remember whether I'm on the Snape/Lily thread or the character analysis thread!

I think terrorizing children is evil. He was Neville's greatest fear. That's not just bullying. Dudley wasn't Harry's greatest fear.
No, but McGonagall is Hermione's greatest fear! The Head of her own House!

Since Lupin "orchestrated" Neville's boggart with leading statements and for comic effect, we will never know exactly what the Snape boggart might have said to him. I imagine that all boggart Snape was going to do was threaten to write to Neville's Gran that he was failing. :rotfl:

In PoA, after Neville leaves the passwords laying around for Sirius Black to steal, McGonagall lashes out at Neville, calls him incredibly stupid, and forbids others to tell Neville the passwords. Neville has to spend the night outside the dorm with the security Trolls. I imagine that Neville's boggart might have changed to McGonagall after that, lol. :lol:

Back on topic:

I think Snape's Boggart would have been Lily dead, just as Dumbledore's Boggart was his dead sister. And that's why JKR could never tell us or show it in the books.

In that regard, then Snape was showing some compassion for Neville, given that he has insane parents and one of them might have come out of the cupboard.

I forgot the scene with the shower. What scene is that? (And I've read the books 14 times!)

I forgot the scene with the shower. What scene is that? (And I've read the books 14 times!)

There is no scene with the shower! We're making fun of Snape's hygiene problem, it was just supposed to be funny.

What Snape doesn't say is just as important. Even though Slughorn keeps getting sentimental about Lily in HBP, Snape avoids the subject. Snape never says one word about Lily, but seems shaken up when he sees Harry's memory of her during Occlumency. That is when Snape lectures Harry about not wearing his heart on his sleeve. Turns out, Snape was the one hiding all his love from the Dark Lord.
I remember feeling that something didn't add up at that point, when I read that, because I assumed that Snape's heart was full of hate, and he certainly wore his hate on his sleeve! Hate is also a part of one's heart. It was just like in PoA when he became demented about Sirius. With love in the equation, it all makes sense. Snape was hiding the best part of himself, he considered that his heart...


There is no scene with the shower! We're making fun of Snape's hygiene problem, it was just supposed to be funny.
Oh! Thanks.

I remember feeling that something didn't add up at that point, when I read that, because I assumed that Snape's heart was full of hate, and he certainly wore his hate on his sleeve! Hate is also a part of one's heart. It was just like in PoA when he became demented about Sirius. With love in the equation, it all makes sense. Snape was hiding the best part of himself, he considered that his heart...

Oh! Thanks.

Also the fact that no one was looking for the hate. No one would use the hate against him, and no one (essential to his plan, that is) was looking to use the hate as a reason not to trust him.

I remember feeling that something didn't add up at that point, when I read that, because I assumed that Snape's heart was full of hate, and he certainly wore his hate on his sleeve! Hate is also a part of one's heart. It was just like in PoA when he became demented about Sirius. With love in the equation, it all makes sense. Snape was hiding the best part of himself, he considered that his heart...

That was just the thing, Snape never wore his emotions on his sleeve, he never showed how he truly felt unless it was to those who he couldn't keep it in, and those people were Lupin and Sirius, and he did not like those people, so we get the impression that Snape was always cold, and always filled with hatred, because he could let no one see that he once loved.

Does anyone else find it poignant and ironic that Lily was saying in her letter to Padfoot that she could not believe Dumbledore had ever been friends with Grindelwald? That's the part of the letter that Snape tore, and actually, how could she find it so hard to believe, when she and Snape, now a Death Eater, had once been best friends?

Does anyone else find it poignant and ironic that Lily was saying in her letter to Padfoot that she could not believe Dumbledore had ever been friends with Grindelwald? That's the part of the letter that Snape tore, and actually, how could she find it so hard to believe, when she and Snape, now a Death Eater, had once been best friends?
She had once been friends with Snape, but she would never compare herself to Dumbledore and him to Grindelwald. That's like Hitler being childhood friends with FDR.

She had once been friends with Snape, but she would never compare herself to Dumbledore and him to Grindelwald. That's like Hitler being childhood friends with FDR. I agree, definitely not the same level. Lily and Snape would be a smaller version of Dumbledore and Grindelwald, but one thinks that she could extrapolate from her own experience; how long she made excuses for Snape and his attraction to evil. Somehow I think when Snape read that line about Dumbledore, he identified, he thought of his friendship with Lily, and he was the equivalent of Grindelwald.

How did Snape remain friendly with the DE Slytherins, even when he was best friends with a 'mudblood' Gryffindor?

Plus I would argue further that though Young Boy Snape indeed saw "no difference" in Lily being Muggleborn- however he hesitated because he knew that other wizards did see a difference- and he didn't tell her that. Snape was aware of the prejudice but didn't apply it to Lily.

I got the impression that Snape did indeed see a difference. He saw Lily's muggle parentage as a flaw, but it was a 'flaw' that he was willing to overlook. I think that makes it worse, in a way, that he always saw Lily as a flawed person.

This would be a bone of contention for her later because teen Snape was unable to see how the Muggleborn issue mattered outside of her own existence.

I think that Lily would have been disappointed with Snape's stand on the muggleborn issue, even after being friends with one for so long. I was actually surprised that she'd been making excuses for him, even after she knew that he called every other muggleborn 'mudblood'. It shows us that Lily was not perfect, that she was only willing to end it for good when Snape turned on her.

How did Snape remain friendly with the DE Slytherins, even when he was best friends with a 'mudblood' Gryffindor?

I'm going to say either they didn't know he was best friends with Lily or that all the other DE's were afraid of Snape as he was a much better wizard than the rest of them so they accepted it as a way to avoid Snape's wrath

I would have to say this shocked me a bit two. I was suprised to learn that the aweful boy petunia talked about in book 5 was Snape and not James or anyone else that might have been magical around. Was interesting to learn. I was shocked to find out his patronus was a doe. I thought for some reason it might have been Ginny. But then of course after the whole Snape memory thing i was like oh wow. That was interesting that SNape liked her so much and yet he started drifting towards the dark arts thus allowing himself to lose her. Who knows they coudl ahve been togather if not for him calling her a mudblood when James was makign fun of him. I bet he would have liked to go back and change that. It was interesting how good of friends they were even before hogwarts years, and then it seemed like they were decent friends until that incident. Definalty shocked me.

I got the impression that Snape did indeed see a difference. He saw Lily's muggle parentage as a flaw, but it was a 'flaw' that he was willing to overlook. I think that makes it worse, in a way, that he always saw Lily as a flawed person.
He was very sorry and tried to apologize for calling her a Mudblood. :( And the reason that day was SWM is because he lost her forever, which only drove him to spend more time with his DE friends.

Like Draco and Regulus, I'm sure Snape didn't understand the reality of being a DE. And of course, Snape was horrified that Voldemort was going to go after Lily and that changed his life.

I think Snape's Boggart would have been Lily dead, just as Dumbledore's Boggart was his dead sister. And that's why JKR could never tell us or show it in the books.


I agree, unless it was dead Harry (yet another failure). In either case, certainly a reason to leave the staffroom before Lupin's lesson. ;)

Like Draco and Regulus, I'm sure Snape didn't understand the reality of being a DE. And of course, Snape was horrified that Voldemort was going to go after Lily and that changed his life.

Possibly but in Snape's case the situation was slightly different.
Regulus and Draco had been reared by pure blood families where the likes of Lord Voldemort were worshipped. They were brainwashed with the pure blood mania from the second they were born. Their own family members were death eaters. I doubt they ever considered not being a death eater. It was almost like a family tradition. (except for Sirius and Andromena)
On the other hadn Snape was half blood. His mother had married a muggle so it is unlikely that he was taught to toirture and hate muggles. However we do see a pronounced prejudice about muggles. But Snape did not grow up in a home where people worshipped Lord Voldemort. He consciously made the decision to becoime one only for himself. Unlike Regulus and Draco he had a choice.

If Snape loved - truly loved - Lily at any point i would be amazed. We see friendship, infatuation sure, but love. When he is begging Voldemort not to kill her it is not out of love, it is out of obsessive possessiveness. He wants Lily for himself regardless and he is no problem if her husband and child are killed to get it. This is not love.

He does Dumbledore's bidding and protects Lily's son, but he treats Harry like s*** for six years. This isn't love.

When he dies he gives Harry his memories - his memories, from his perspective. That doesn't mean they are the truth, regardless of the magical powers of the pensive. Then as his last act rather then making amends with Harry all he wants is to see Lily's eyes one more time. This isn't love.

Snape was an evil selfish git who despite his bit of remorse and some good work for Dumbledore was a selfish evil git who got what he deserved.

This is what jo herself said of Snape. According to her (and she's the expert!), he did indeed love Lily. Lechicaneuronline: Do you think snape is a hero

J.K. Rowling: Yes, I do; though a very flawed hero. An anti-hero, perhaps. He is not a particularly likeable man in many ways. He remains rather cruel, a bully, riddled with bitterness and insecurity - and yet he loved, and showed loyalty to that love
J.K. Rowling: and, ultimately, laid down his life because of it. That's pretty heroic!

Don't forget that Lily didn't love Snape romantically - Jo said she could have grown to love him that way if he'd been different, but that she only loved him as a friend. But it certainly sheds some light on the Snape/James animosity!
Oh, I know. But I still consider it a love triangle of sorts. Two completley different sides of the spectrum wanted one girl. Sort of interesting :lol:Yes - he wasn't the brightest button in the box in that respect, was he!Nope, then again love makes people do really stupid things. Really REALLY stupid things in Snape's case!

Great post a couple pages back, Wimsey! Although I believe that there is a little obsession in love to begin with.
If Snape loved - truly loved - Lily at any point i would be amazed. We see friendship, infatuation sure, but love.
His love for Lily is displayed throughout the chapter and JKR has pretty much said that he loved Lily so I think it's safe to say that he loved Lily! It's a matter of people accepting it at this point.

And I don't think Snape would be considered "evil" but that's for a different thread.

Possibly but in Snape's case the situation was slightly different.
On the other hadn Snape was half blood. His mother had married a muggle so it is unlikely that he was taught to toirture and hate muggles. However we do see a pronounced prejudice about muggles. But Snape did not grow up in a home where people worshipped Lord Voldemort. He consciously made the decision to becoime one only for himself. Unlike Regulus and Draco he had a choice.
Snape had actually less choice. His muggle father abused both him and his witch mother. Unlike Malfoys and Blacks, Snape really had something against muggles and against the idea of half-blood families. Even Dumbledore at 17 was nearly seduced to wizard supremacy, what can you ask from an unloved child who went to Slytherin like his mom? For him Slytherin was the first place where he had friends.

Yes, Harry hadn't a bit of Muggle-hating despite Dursleys, despite hostile muggle neighbors and elementary schoolmates. But that exactly why Harry is exceptional, that's why he, and only he could defeat Voldemort. We cannot judge people comparing them to him.

The only thread that could keep Snape from complete muggle-hating was Lily, but people have an ability of self-deception. He could say to himself something like 'oh, she is one exception, and actually maybe those prejudices against muggleborns are too carried away, muggleborns are still wizards and witches, it is muggles that are really repulsive, but, well, most of muggleborns are indeed Gryffindor snobs', etc.
Like lots of Nazis weren't anti-Semitic or even Arian supremacist themselves, they just went along anyway.

Such self-deception was really needed for him to sustain his love for Lily alongside with his deepening involvement in Dark Arts and later outright DE. He was a very intelligent man, and such a brilliant brain can devise most complex and elaborate excuses.

I agree, unless it was dead Harry (yet another failure). In either case, certainly a reason to leave the staffroom before Lupin's lesson. ;)
That's exactly right! :)

He consciously made the decision to becoime one only for himself. Unlike Regulus and Draco he had a choice.
All of them had a choice.

Regulus could have followed the path of his brother Sirius. But even though he didn't, he had compassion for a House Elf (just as Harry always does) and tried to destroy a horcrux.

Draco actually chose not to kill Dumbledore - in the end, he couldn't do it.

Snape didn't have a happy homelife, and after he and Lily parted ways, he lost the best friend he ever had. He was looking for a sense of belonging, and probably following in the footsteps of Lucius Malfoy.

All three of them learned the hard way that they had made a dreadful mistake. As the story of Dumbledore shows, redemption is possible, even for the most wayward son.

As the story of Peter Pettigrew shows, even Gryffindors make bad choices and never redeem themselves. Why did Peter do what he did? He chose to betray Lily, even while Snape was trying to save her life. And Peter was also supposed to be her friend. I think the contrast between Peter and Snape is very important.

I got the impression that Snape did indeed see a difference. He saw Lily's muggle parentage as a flaw, but it was a 'flaw' that he was willing to overlook. I think that makes it worse, in a way, that he always saw Lily as a flawed person.
I don't think Snape was ever that bothered by blood status. We have seen more evidence that it didn't bother him. I think he only used the racist term to stay in with the Slytherin crowd, something that is not uncommon amongst teenagers. JKR said that Snape wanted to become a Death Eater to get a bit of power, be part of something bigger, belong and, ironically, impress Lily. To me that says he was never blood racist as, say Malfoy was.
I would say that it is healthy to see the person you love as flawed. They are not perfect but you love them anyway. If you see someone as perfect then that is infatuation. Love is to see them as they are and accept their faults, just as you would like your faults to be accepted by anyone who loved you.

I got the impression that Snape did indeed see a difference. He saw Lily's muggle parentage as a flaw, but it was a 'flaw' that he was willing to overlook. I think that makes it worse, in a way, that he always saw Lily as a flawed person.
Snape was being a hypocrite, since his own father was a Muggle and he grew up in that world, just like Lily. That is why he apologized so profusely.

I don't think Snape saw any flaws in Lily. To me, he put her up on a pedestal and that's why she was the love of his life.

What Snape refused to see at that time of his life were the flaws in himself that allowed him to be drawn into the Death Eaters. Later, of course, he regretted it more than anything, and turned away because he loved Lily.

(May I say, it is so nice to just type "he loved Lily" and know that it is canon now? :) )

I don't think Snape was ever that bothered by blood status.
Yet Snape is extremely condescending when he talks about Petunia.
He cannot understand why Lily is crying about what Petunia thinks or says because afterall she is a muggle.(DH: The Prince's Tale.)


Silver Ink Pot and Strokov I agree with you on most counts. All of them did finally make a choice to amend their ways. Atleast Regulus and Snape did. The circumstances in which Snape grew up were far from pleasant and everyone including Gryffinbdors makes mistakes.
Redemption is possible, even for Snape.

That having been said I would like to eplain whta I was trying to say earlier. Regulus and Draco had been told to become death eaters from the time they were born. It was expected of them. They were pupetting what had they had been taught by relatives like Bellatrix. Sirius and Andromena were exceptions. I have a feeling that Regulus and Draco gave into being death eaters in the beginning without much thought. This decision had been taken for them long ago. Had Regulus and Draco been born into different families they might have been different people from the start.
Snape had an unhappy childhood. But he was never taught to worship Voldemort. He learnt about Voldemort only after he came to Hogwarts His initial decision to be a death eater was his choice alone. He did it to find acceptance and power; for Snape was definitely drawn to the Dark Arts.
Whereas in the Regulus' and Draco's case their intial decision to be a death eater was influenced by their parents and families.

They were pupetting what had they had been taught by relatives like Bellatrix. Sirius and Andromena were exceptions. I have a feeling that Regulus and Draco gave into being death eaters in the beginning without much thought. This decision had been taken for them long ago. Had Regulus and Draco been born into different families they might have been different people from the start.
OK, but one major theme in the books is that your family is not your destiny. Harry does not become like Vernon and Dudley, though he grew up in the same house. Sirius and Regulus, Andromeda and her sisters, Albus and Aberforth, Percy and his brothers, and on and on.

That is why choice matters.

Snape believed as a boy that magical powers gave wizards superiority over Muggles, which is why he thought that Petunia wasn't as important as Lily. He was wrong to feel that way, but it is made clear in the books that Dumbledore grew up thinking the same thing because of what happened to his sister. Probably Snape felt that he and his mother were superior to his abusive father.

It's also clear that none of that made any difference in his feelings for Lily. He loved her, and thought she was full of magic, and he never got over that. It's beautiful and it's what saved him from being a true Death Eater all his life.

I loved that JKR said Snape was the only DE who had a Patronus. :)

Snape believed as a boy that magical powers gave wizards superiority over Muggles, which is why he thought that Petunia wasn't as important as Lily. He was wrong to feel that way, but it is made clear in the books that Dumbledore grew up thinking the same thing because of what happened to his sister. Probably Snape felt that he and his mother were superior to his abusive father.

I loved that JKR said Snape was the only DE who had a Patronus. :)

Maybe the word is not superior but special. I don't know if Snape knew another wizard of his age, I don't think so, so when he met Lily was like: Whooo, we can make a club! He felt himself special as Lily and it was funny to left Petunia out of it.

I loved too that JK said the other DE didn't have Patronuses, it's like saying that Snape was the only one that had feeling in the bottom of his heart.

Once again, sorry for my english :whistle:

snape was always my favorite .. he had a very multidimensional character.. he was more than meets the eye.. thats the kind i like. hehehe. and loved him more after the story.. had a feeling he had a thing for lily. made sense why he hated harry..he was a flawed hero.. which is why i like harry too.. he isnt perfect..
i never was too keen on dumbledore. so im glad it turned out this way..

Maybe the word is not superior but special. I don't know if Snape knew another wizard of his age, I don't think so, so when he met Lily was like: Whooo, we can make a club! He felt himself special as Lily and it was funny to left Petunia out of it.
That's a great way to put it, since they were just kids - the Magic Club. Plus, for children that age, it's always two's company, three's a crowd, and someone gets left out. Remember Ron and Harry shutting Hermione out and making her cry in Book One?

Before we judge Snape too harshly for treating Petunia badly, let's recall that Ron made Hermione cry, and then the boys locked her in a bathroom with a giant troll when they were older than Snape and Lily! :lol: Compared to that, a small tree branch isn't too awful.

I loved too that JK said the other DE didn't have Patronuses, it's like saying that Snape was the only one that had feeling in the bottom of his heart.
I know! He may not have seemed that way on the outside, but his spirit was fine on the inside, represented by the Doe Patronus.

Personally, I LOVED the whole The Prince's Tale chapter. Lily just came across adorable and even young Snape seemed like a nice guy.

In my eyes he was too much of a horrible person in those seven books to ever be fully redeemed in just one chapter. However, J.K. did make me feel a pang of sympathy for the character deep in my guy.

I found it a little disturbing at the end how he was yelling at Harry to look at him so he could pretend he was his long dead mother.:no:

Yet Snape is extremely condescending when he talks about Petunia.
He cannot understand why Lily is crying about what Petunia thinks or says because afterall she is a muggle.(DH: The Prince's Tale.)
Well Petunia is pretty horrible to him first

Maybe the word is not superior but special. I don't know if Snape knew another wizard of his age, I don't think so, so when he met Lily was like: Whooo, we can make a club! He felt himself special as Lily and it was funny to left Petunia out of it.
This is what I think too. Kind of like they are kids that can do something that Petunia can't. I don't think Snape understands lily's attachment to her sister at all. To him family does not equal "safe and loving", and his response is much more "Don't worry about her she's not part of the club" than "Forget about her she's an inferior being"

That's a great way to put it, since they were just kids - the Magic Club. Plus, for children that age, it's always two's company, three's a crowd, and someone gets left out. Remember Ron and Harry shutting Hermione out and making her cry in Book One?

Before we judge Snape too harshly for treating Petunia badly, let's recall that Ron made Hermione cry, and then the boys locked her in a bathroom with a giant troll when they were older than Snape and Lily! :lol: Compared to that, a small tree branch isn't too awful.

Yes. Nobody judged Ron or Harry because of that, 'cause they were only children, and when they grew up they became wiser. Snape's problem was that he became wiser a bit later.

I found it a little disturbing at the end how he was yelling at Harry to look at him so he could pretend he was his long dead mother.:no:

He didn't yell at Harry. I thought it was a beautiful scene, and thought about it again when Harry brought back his parents and Lupin and Sirius to talk to when he thought he was about to die himself. It was very much the same sort of thing. :love:

Maybe the word is not superior but special. I don't know if Snape knew another wizard of his age, I don't think so, so when he met Lily was like: Whooo, we can make a club! He felt himself special as Lily and it was funny to left Petunia out of it.

:lol: I'm sure the club idea would have been very attractive to young Severus!

Petunia is very mean with him first. She despises him because he is poor. So he just despises her because she is a muggle. I think Snape thought at that time that muggles can't understand magic. He saw how his father reacted with his witch mother.

Ofcourse it all comes down to choice. I will always respect Dumbledore, and Regulus for having the strenght and courage to accept that they were wrong and therefore work towards trying to make the world a better place.
However Regulus and Draco signed up to be death eaters in the beginning because it was expected of them. They never thought to question this decision that had been taken by their family.(Sirius and Andromena were exceptions. They questioned their family's beliefs from the very beginning.) Half way through Regulus questioned this decision and chose to be different.
On the other hand nothing was expecteed off Snape. His initial decision to be a death eater was a plan that had been pondered over. Whereas in Regulus' case it had been taken without much thought.
There is a subtle difference.
However both were brave enough to accept that they had made wrong choices and they both sacrificed their lives in order to make ammends.
Hats off to them.
Silver Ink Pot-
I think with a few minor variations here and there both us of basically agree with the same things.

He didn't yell at Harry. I thought it was a beautiful scene, and thought about it again when Harry brought back his parents and Lupin and Sirius to talk to when he thought he was about to die himself. It was very much the same sort of thing. :love:

I quite liked it as well. He wanted to look Harry in the eyes because, as was pointed out multitudinous times, he has his mother's eyes. It makes me wonder, if Harry hadn't had his mother's eyes, would Snape have done such a good job protecting him, especially since he looked so much like his father, the hated James?

You've probably all read or heard this, but I'll post it anyway. This is from the interview with Rowling:

Is he a hero? See, I don't see him really as a hero. He's spiteful. He's a bully. All these things are still true of Snape, even at the end of this book. But, was he brave? Yes, immensely.

Snape is a difficult character for me because of this. Is he one of the most noble because all he did he did for love, or is he the least noble because all he did was kind of selfish? One could argue that Snape could have been asked to do ANYTHING for love of Lily, including killing or torture or anything.

Peace,
Christopher

I think there's a pattern of Snape anti-muggle statements appearing purely as reactionary. For most of the series in fact Snape doesn't insult anyone until they draw first blood.

The metaphor for this is in how the boy Snape dresses. He wears a huge overcoat (his father's?) as a way to hide his embarrassing clothes- his weakness. He is hiding behind the bushes. Adult spy Snape uses all the spite and meanness he learned from his father to hide "the best of him" literally as a self defense mechanism against appearing to empathetic to anyone not a Death Eater.

In the playground... Sanpe tells Lily the truth and Petunia laughs at him and calls him "That Snape boy" she names him by his Abusive father's reputation and her tone suggest he should be ashamed and embarrassed for lvingin in Spinners End. Snape lashed out at Petunia after she insulted him first.

His first instinct is to call her "just a muggle" to alleviate this slight and hold himself up. Neither Statements are untrue or even insults- in of themselves but it's a power play that matters. Both of them are trying to keep their own position in Lily's world desperately afraid of losing her.

Young boy Snape can't imagine why Lily would miss Petunia because he's never had any friend or family member care about him before he met her. Plus -from the first moment he can detect that Petunia is jealous and fearful of him and wants to keep Lily away from him.

You've probably all read or heard this, but I'll post it anyway. This is from the interview with Rowling:

She did backtrack on this the next day. Her last chat she said Yes he was a Hero/anti-hero. Which makes more sense. Considering Harry himself saw Snape as such.

Lechicaneuronline: Do you think snape is a hero

J.K. Rowling: Yes, I do; though a very flawed hero. An anti-hero, perhaps. He is not a particularly likeable man in many ways. He remains rather cruel, a bully, riddled with bitterness and insecurity - and yet he loved, and showed loyalty to that love and, ultimately, laid down his life because of it. That's pretty heroic!

Annie: Does the wizarding world now know that snape was dumbledores man, or do they still think he did a bunk

J.K. Rowling: Harry would ensure that Snape's heroism was known. Of course, that would not stop Rita Skeeter writing 'Snape: Scoundrel or Saint?'

I quite liked it as well. He wanted to look Harry in the eyes because, as was pointed out multitudinous times, he has his mother's eyes. It makes me wonder, if Harry hadn't had his mother's eyes, would Snape have done such a good job protecting him, especially since he looked so much like his father, the hated James?


I don'nt believe so. He still would have protected Harry because he was Lily's son. It may have been harder for Snape to accept that fact without any visual characteristics proving this, but he loved Lily more than enough to protect Harry no matter the situation

I see Snape like a nerd in the muggle world. He's really a nerd.

I see Snape like a nerd in the muggle world. He's really a nerd.
I can't really see Snape as a nerd, even in the muggle world. If you mean he was overly smart and kind of lonely, I'd have to disagree with you-he had friends, and it wasn't his nerdiness but his actions that drove his best friend Lily away from him.


What I'm wondering is how Lily will react to seeing Snape now that he's also dead. Do you suppose she'll forgive him for being a Death Eater and being so mean to Harry because of what he's done?

I don't see how she can't forgive him. If her son, who is so like her, can forgive him, then we must assume that she can too.

It's just that, when she was young, he betrayed her. And I think she would understand his hatred of Harry, unjustified though it was.

It's very much so a strange story actually. We all know what it's like to secretly loathe the person who's going out with the one you want, in Snape's case, he gave up his life in service both to Lily, and in a way to James. That probably hurt a lot too.

What I'm wondering is how Lily will react to seeing Snape now that he's also dead. Do you suppose she'll forgive him for being a Death Eater and being so mean to Harry because of what he's done?


I think Lily will have forgiven Snape. After all he spent the last 17 years of his life working as a double agent to protect Harry! And when he thought Harry had to die in order for Voledmort to die he was heartbroken. He wanted Harry to survive. I think he felt like it was his way of making things right with Lily.

I can't really see Snape as a nerd, even in the muggle world. If you mean he was overly smart and kind of lonely, I'd have to disagree with you-he had friends, and it wasn't his nerdiness but his actions that drove his best friend Lily away from him.


What I'm wondering is how Lily will react to seeing Snape now that he's also dead. Do you suppose she'll forgive him for being a Death Eater and being so mean to Harry because of what he's done?
Snape definitely wouldn't be a nerd he would have been an outcast. We see in his first scene with Lily and Petunia that he was wearing a baggy jacket and left that on because the clothes underneath were even worse than that jacket. Snape was a neglected child, and because of that when he grew up he didn't deal with everyone the way he should have. That is why I feel Lily was so special to him, as Lupin said in the PoA movie (which I believe is the major foreshadowing) Lily could see the best in people even when those people couldn't see it in themselves. Lily did just that to Snape.

What I'm wondering is how Lily will react to seeing Snape now that he's also dead. Do you suppose she'll forgive him for being a Death Eater and being so mean to Harry because of what he's done?

I imagine she will forgive him… I’m not entirely sure she sees much to forgive. It has to be more important to her that Snape devoted his last sixteen years to keeping her son alive than that he was mean to him. I just hope she’s there to greet him when he’s dead… give him a big hug, let him hold her for a minute! Even if she’ll never love him, at least they should be friends in the afterlife, I can’t imagine there’s much reason for old grudges now.

No, but McGonagall is Hermione's greatest fear! The Head of her own House!
No she isn't! Failing her exams was Hermione's greatest fear. McGonagall was only the messenger!I think that Lily would have been disappointed with Snape's stand on the muggleborn issue, even after being friends with one for so long. I was actually surprised that she'd been making excuses for him, even after she knew that he called every other muggleborn 'mudblood'. It shows us that Lily was not perfect, that she was only willing to end it for good when Snape turned on her.


Everything we see of Lily tells us what a great person she was. I can totally see her forgiving Snape time and time again, and not giving up on him until long after anyone else would have done so. But in the end, how could she stay friends with someone who chose to associate with people who wanted her dead? I see Lily persevering with Snape as a strength, rather than a weakness. Like Dumbledore, it seems that she tended to see the good in people even when they couldn't see it themselves. But in the end, Snape just went too far along the path to evil, and Lily had no choice but to drop him.How did Snape remain friendly with the DE Slytherins, even when he was best friends with a 'mudblood' Gryffindor?
I'm guessing they met in secret - otherwise she would probably have been attacked and he would have been excluded from the DE group.

Snape's protection of Harry was all about keeping him safe for Lily, so perhaps he viewed the fact that Harry would have to die as his failing Lily once more.
Yeah - definitely. After all Snape had been through to keep that loathsome little brat safe for Lily's sake, no wonder he was upset!

Snape was a neglected child, and because of that when he grew up he didn't deal with everyone the way he should have. That is why I feel Lily was so special to him, as Lupin said in the PoA movie (which I believe is the major foreshadowing) Lily could see the best in people even when those people couldn't see it in themselves. Lily did just that to Snape.


Yes, I didn't remember that. i would like to thimk that Lupin said it not only because of him, but also because of Snape. But maybe James and his gang only knew of Snape's feeling towards Lily and no of Lily's ones.

And I'm sure that she would forgive Snape. She was a mother and her child is safe now, thanks to Snape! i'm sure that she would forget his attitude towards Harry and see the good in Snape as she did before.

I'm guessing they met in secret - otherwise she would probably have been attacked and he would have been excluded from the DE group.

if James & the mauranders knew about their friendship, the slytherins should've known too. I don't think Lily would've accepted hiding

Yes, I didn't remember that. i would like to thimk that Lupin said it not only because of him, but also because of Snape. But maybe James and his gang only knew of Snape's feeling towards Lily and no of Lily's ones.


It is entirely possible that the Marauder's thought Snape was just another person in line that liked Lily and didn't know that Lily and him had a mutual friendship.

It is entirely possible that the Marauder's thought Snape was just another person in line that liked Lily and didn't know that Lily and him had a mutual friendship.

Right. I think that Lily didn't want to hide their friendship, she is not like that, at least at the beginning, because she said to Snape later that she didn't want to make up more excuses, so at the end their friendship was a problem :no: ...but what I wanted to say what that, even if Lily didn't want to hide their friendship, I think Snape wanted to do it (he had alot to lose). So Lily, who is such a good friend, agreed with him.

What I'm wondering is how Lily will react to seeing Snape now that he's also dead. Do you suppose she'll forgive him for being a Death Eater and being so mean to Harry because of what he's done?

Excellent question! I can envisage her yelling at him a lot for giving her son such a miserable time at school (if you can yell at people in the afterlife), but being softened by the knowledge that it all turned out OK and that Snape helped Harry with the sword. Then again, Snape also sent Harry to his death (on Dumbledore's instructions), and I can't see Lily viewing that lightly! Since she loved him as a friend, though, and was an all-round great person, I guess she'd forgive him in the end, just as Harry did.

May I say, it is so nice to just type "he loved Lily" and know that it is canon now? )
Only if I'm allowed to say that it's nice to just type "Snape was a cruel bully" and know that it's canon now! ;) See - we were both right! :lol:

Right. I think that Lily didn't want to hide their friendship, she is not like that, at least at the beginning, because she said to Snape later that she didn't want to make up more excuses, so at the end their friendship was a problem :no: ...but what I wanted to say what that, even if Lily didn't want to hide their friendship, I think Snape wanted to do it (he had alot to lose). So Lily, who is such a good friend, agreed with him.That seems to be a reoccurring theme in Snape's life. Hiding his relationship with Lily, he wanted to hide it from Harry for many reasons, who knows that the correct one is, and he wanted to hide it from his Death Eater-Youth friends at Hogwarts.

It is entirely possible that the Marauder's thought Snape was just another person in line that liked Lily and didn't know that Lily and him had a mutual friendship.

Lily's friends knew and disaprroved of her relationship with Severus. I do not believe it was a secret. Lily mentions this in their conversations. I think the Marauders ahd to know as well; actually, I presume this is what made Severus a 'special case' for James.

Yet Snape is extremely condescending when he talks about Petunia.
He cannot understand why Lily is crying about what Petunia thinks or says because afterall she is a muggle.(DH: The Prince's Tale.)

Snape is eleven. Can you really hold him responsible or rdaw conclusions about his character as a whole? He was a neglected, devoid of love and care, probable even abused eleven-year-old whose only source of solace and self-esteem was the fact that he was a wizard and he would be going to Hogwarts, among others like him. I find his behaviour towards Petunia totally understandable.

Yet Snape is extremely condescending when he talks about Petunia.
He cannot understand why Lily is crying about what Petunia thinks or says because afterall she is a muggle.(DH: The Prince's Tale.)


Silver Ink Pot and Strokov I agree with you on most counts. All of them did finally make a choice to amend their ways. Atleast Regulus and Snape did. The circumstances in which Snape grew up were far from pleasant and everyone including Gryffinbdors makes mistakes.
Redemption is possible, even for Snape.

That having been said I would like to eplain whta I was trying to say earlier. Regulus and Draco had been told to become death eaters from the time they were born. It was expected of them. They were pupetting what had they had been taught by relatives like Bellatrix. Sirius and Andromena were exceptions. I have a feeling that Regulus and Draco gave into being death eaters in the beginning without much thought. This decision had been taken for them long ago. Had Regulus and Draco been born into different families they might have been different people from the start.
Snape had an unhappy childhood. But he was never taught to worship Voldemort. He learnt about Voldemort only after he came to Hogwarts His initial decision to be a death eater was his choice alone. He did it to find acceptance and power; for Snape was definitely drawn to the Dark Arts.
Whereas in the Regulus' and Draco's case their intial decision to be a death eater was influenced by their parents and families.


I guess it could be argued that Regulus, Lucius and Draco should have known better. Severus had no upbringing that would acquaint him to LV, until he went to Hogwarts and became acquainted with Lucius, et al. Personally, I think they were all deceived by LV but they had different motivations for joining him.

I would liken Snape's experience to someone who had no "religion" or moral direction, but is still seeking something. He is accepted by guys who respect him for his talent and try to recruit him to their "religion" - serving LV. He feels valued and like he has a direction.

Topic?

Ironically, he thinks this will impress Lily, but he doesn't get that she was raised with different values. She values a whole different part of him. She tries to warn him, but he's not ready to listen.

He thinks he can have their comradeship and Lily's love/friendship. In his mind he doesn't seem to think it's an either-or proposition.

Ultimately, Lily hopes that he will give up the dark arts so she keeps trying, until he does one thing that makes her realize she's lost him. She had no choice but to break off the friendship.

The tragedy isn't just that Snape loses Lily's friendship, he turns to the people who lead down the wrong path and doesn't realize what a mistake it was until his actions, in part, cost Lily's life. That is what sets him right and he is ultimately redeemed, but what a terrible, terrible cost.

Lily's friends knew and disaprroved of her relationship with Severus. I do not believe it was a secret. Lily mentions this in their conversations. I think the Marauders ahd to know as well; actually, I presume this is what made Severus a 'special case' for James.I don't think it was well known. The Death Eater-Youth would not allow Snape to be a part of them if his "best friend" was a Mudblood. "....thought we were supposed to be friends?" Snape was saying "Best friends?"
"We are, Sev, but I don't like some of the people you're hanging out with! "Slipped out?" There was no pity in Lily's voice. "It's too late. I've made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends - you see, don't even deny it! You don't even dent that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?"It seems that Lily's and probably Snape's friends knew that they talked to each other, however they did not know that they were best friends. And that is what they were however Lily says none of my friends can understand why I even talk to you which says to me that they did not know they were anything more than casual friends, let alone best friends.

mshepnj, you are right about Snape not growing up, as far as we know, hearing about pure-blood and all that, however, despite the fact that he is half-blood, he hesitates when telling Lily it doesn't matter that she's muggleborn. This tells me he already has some skewed vision of the wizarding world. We also know, from previous books, that he already had a pretty good grounding in dark arts and jinxes, etc. So while his mom may not have been a big LV supporter, she was obviously teaching him so suspect things that he was using from almost day one.

I was pleased when we found out Snape's feelings. Unrequited love is a strong feeling, and to live with it for so long. It had to be tough on Snape. I see now how he hated the James in Harry, and refused to see the Lily that was in him. To see the eyes of the one you love, in a body that so looks like the one you hate. How hard it must have been. I feel sorry for him now, but respect him all the more.

ear, ear! I have thought for a while that Snape loved Lily. I, too, came at it from the standpoint of Snape seeing James, with Lily's eyes, every time he saw Harry. And never wanted to see the Lily in Harry's behaviour. I admire Snape for living such a double, closed life. He was, as JKR said, an angry, bitter man, but living that kind of life must have brought out those feelings even more. Sad.

Snape's mother, Eileen Prince, is shown in Half Blood Prince as a being "simultaneously cross and sullen, with heavy brows and a long, pallid face."

His father is also mentioned, Tobias Snape, who is shown as a hot-tempered, hook-nosed man, shouting at the cowering woman, while the boy is crying.

It's my opinion (though this may be incorrect, of course, feel free to carry this on), that Snape saw his own childhood, saw his parents fighting, and didn't want that. He picked a spark of light in Lily Evans and he stuck with her. He detested his father, this is shown in one simple line in Deathly Hallows: The Prince's Tale: "My Father doesn't like much of anything."

Tobias Snape seemed to be quite dangerous in terms of both a man and a father. Snape had no father figure, nobody to teach him anything about women, anything about himself. His father disliked his wife and child using magic.

Snape possibly thought that power was the way to win a girl. It seems that, by speculation, his mother probably found Tobias Snape to be endearing, and he does seem to overpower her somewhat. Snape was unwilling to hurt Lily as his father had hurt Eileen Prince, so he tried to become powerful as a Death Eater, the most powerful thing there was at that time.

He wished to forsake his name, seen by his nickname, the Half Blood Prince. He wanted his mother's name, not his father'. He also seems quite proud of being half blood, and maybe this comes from Lily. He wasn't so different from her, it seems to say. At least, he was half like her...

All he wanted to prove was that he could be powerful, if that was what he wanted. he seems to have failed to realise that power overtook him somewhat. He got too far into something he really did like. When he saw that his own mistake would elad to Lily's death, he humbled himself and returned to Dumbledore in desperation, seeking forgiveness that Lily would no longer give him. Shortly after her death, he realised that she could never forgive him, but he lived his life from then on for her.

I think that all goes back to his own parents. Had his father been more pleasant, maybe Snape would not have been so neglected. Maybe he would not have neglected himself, as he did later in life.

It also explains a little more about the appearances. Snape inherited his father's hooked nose and hot headed temper, but refuses, when Harry taunts him, accusations of cowardice. He sees his father as a coward. He also sees his father in himself. Just as he sees Harry's father in Harry. He detests that he took after someone so very violent and crude, and perhaps that passed on a little.

He also saw James being much more successful with Lily, and the fact that Harry looks like James, adds more to the neglect and disgust and contempt in Snape's childhood.

Just a theory..

JKR says in her web chat:

Yes, it was known that they were friendly and then stopped being friends. Nothing more than that would be widely known.

I guess it would have been difficult for Snape to hide the fact that he threatened to sleep in front of the Gryffindor's room! :lol:

Actually, we know how the Gryffindors reacted towards this relationship. But we don't know how the Slytherins did, in particular how Snape's friends said. It seems that Snape did not care about that. He didn't hide his friendship with a muggleborn gryffindor girl, but still, was friend with future DEs... Maybe they thought that he desired her, like Voldemort did.

I think we can compare with what Zabini said about Ginny in HBP. He actually thought that Ginny was beautiful, but won't "touch" her, because she's a blood traitor. Snape's friends could had had almost the same reaction, thinking that she was desirable and accepting Snape's friendship for her because they assumed he desired her... If Snape was really as deeper in the dark arts as Sirius or Lupin said in OotP, he could had had fascinated his Slytherins friends, who could had accepted better his "little flaw".

However, it was probably when they were no more friends that Snape really entered in the future DEs's club.

I thought for a long time that Snape was in love with Lily, but I never thought of them being friends! I pretty much went into shock when I read that part.

I think it was after losing Lily, finally, that Snape threw himself into the dark arts completely. A way to "drown" his sorrows, so to speak. He was already aligned with the DE's and losing Lily would have been just the push he needed. I can almost hear Lucius whispering; see what you get with a mudblood; nothing but heartache and pain, come and see what real power is, come to meet LV. Snape would have been angry and vunerable after that final meeting with Lily. Lucius would have moved in and taken advantage of that.

Snape possibly thought that power was the way to win a girl. It seems that, by speculation, his mother probably found Tobias Snape to be endearing, and he does seem to overpower her somewhat. Snape was unwilling to hurt Lily as his father had hurt Eileen Prince, so he tried to become powerful as a Death Eater, the most powerful thing there was at that time.

He wished to forsake his name, seen by his nickname, the Half Blood Prince. He wanted his mother's name, not his father'. He also seems quite proud of being half blood, and maybe this comes from Lily. He wasn't so different from her, it seems to say. At least, he was half like her...


I completly agree to that. I'm sure that according to Snape, being a death eater would impressed Lily, because this would make him powerful. He would had become someone.

Actually, we know how the Gryffindors reacted towards this relationship. But we don't know how the Slytherins did, in particular how Snape's friends said. It seems that Snape did not care about that. He didn't hide his friendship with a muggleborn gryffindor girl, but still, was friend with future DEs... Maybe they thought that he desired her, like Voldemort did.
We have the parallel in HBP of Pansy Parkinson taunting Blaise Zambini for liking Ginny Weasley, and he has to prove he doesn't like her by calling her a blood-traitor. I think Snape probably heard remarks about his friendship with Lily from time to time and may have said things about her he didn't really mean.

Whatever he said, he loved her all his life, and that's a fact.

As a Spy, Snape went on to make it his persona to say things he didn't always believe, or to bend the truth to fool Voldemort. I think he learned early on to hide his feelings - to "compartmentalize" as JKR called it. He probably learned it at home with his family. They were in one compartment, and his friendship with Lily was another, and then his DE friends at Hogwarts became another. Those worlds didn't overlap enough and obviously caused him alot of tragedy.

I thought for a long time that Snape was in love with Lily, but I never thought of them being friends! I pretty much went into shock when I read that part.
I hope you are feeling better now. :) Was it a good shock or a bad shock?

JKR says in her web chat:

Yes, it was known that they were friendly and then stopped being friends. Nothing more than that would be widely known.

I guess it would have been difficult for Snape to hide the fact that he threatened to sleep in front of the Gryffindor's room! :lol:

Oh wow, Thank You, that just proves my point.

Rachel Nell: Jkr, thank you for such amazing books! I would like to know how come noone seemed to know that lily and snape were friends in school they were obviously meeting for chats, etc didnt james know their past

J.K. Rowling: Thank you for your thank you!

J.K. Rowling: Yes, it was known that they were friendly and then stopped being friends. Nothing more than that would be widely known.

J.K. Rowling: James always suspected Snape harboured deeper feelings for Lily, which was a factor in James' behaviour to Snape. So no one knew anything more then them being 'friendly'

which shows me that Snape was still being secretive. or compartmentalizing. As silverinpot says, there was so little overlap Snape didn't really have to "justify" his relationship. I still think my previous post has a valid point though.

[Staff Edit] Snape was in love with lily! when i started to read "the princes tail" i was anxious beacause i felt i knew where it was going! i like lily alot as a young girl ....and its the most we ever see of her she seemed like such a free spirit by not being afraid of her powers but having fun with them by showing them off to petunia at the playground..she was very admirable i liked her alot as a girl.

i hope they find a great actress to play her in those scenes and they better have the whole playground scene in the movie! i loooved how they introduced lily she is now one of my favorite characters!!!

As a Spy, Snape went on to make it his persona to say things he didn't always believe, or to bend the truth to fool Voldemort. I think he learned early on to hide his feelings - to "compartmentalize" as JKR called it. He probably learned it at home with his family. They were in one compartment, and his friendship with Lily was another, and then his DE friends at Hogwarts became another. Those worlds didn't overlap enough and obviously caused him alot of tragedy.

Throughout the series and especially in Deathly Hallows we see a pattern of Snape's emphasis on what he does rather than what he says.

When young Lily asks The boy Seveerus about his parents fighting, Snape says "fine" but his actions- tearing the leaves in his hands reveal the truth and Lily changes the subject. No doubt his father had a lot choice "words" for Severus in his youth. He learned to compartmentalize things from a very young age.

Teen Snape stammers and stutters. He has not mastered his speech. Then we come the pivotal moment of "Mudblood" where Snape learns the lesson of how words can drive people away. Though I think he saw the words as meaningless- Lily (rightfully) did not. She knew what the Death Eaters would become. Snape did not recognize that it made a difference until it was too late.

By the time he is a full fledge spy he has mastered his speech and he know words can be meaningless and manipulated to fit the listeners prejudice. He uses this to fool the Death Eaters and their children repeatedly. But it's his actions that mattered. When he makes his promise to Dumbledore to kill him - he doesn't say "yes" or "no" - he nods and DD understands that means it will be done. Period.

I think Snape probably heard remarks about his friendship with Lily from time to time and may have said things about her he didn't really mean.

I agree. When I was 14, a very close friend of mine, a boy, insulted me in front of his friends, just because they were doing so. It was known that we were friends. When I learnt what he had said I was hurt, but I knew and understood that he never meant those things.
When you are young, you could do everything stupid just to be accepted by people.

I thought the idea of the Snape/Lily love relationship was very perceptive but perhaps a little far-fetched and felt if it happened in the book it would be a poor part of the plot.

However I'll put my hands up and say how very wrong I was. JK wrote it beautifully and I am ashamed to have doubted her abilities. Though I was surprised the plot was put in, I felt it explained a lot and worked really wel..

OOPS, sorry for gloating.... i just felt i knew what was gonne happen an got rather excited haha....but i loved the scenes with snape and lily they were all good but my fav is still the playground ...i love the way lily is using her powers playfully and snape is shy boy with a crush unable to say so...lily was portayed like the typical girl a boy like snape would fall head over heels in love with...

I think it was after losing Lily, finally, that Snape threw himself into the dark arts completely. A way to "drown" his sorrows, so to speak. He was already aligned with the DE's and losing Lily would have been just the push he needed. I can almost hear Lucius whispering; see what you get with a mudblood; nothing but heartache and pain, come and see what real power is, come to meet LV. Snape would have been angry and vunerable after that final meeting with Lily. Lucius would have moved in and taken advantage of that.Well Snape was already well on the road to becoming a Death Eater, Lily confronted Snape about it and he didn't deny that was his groups ambition. However, Snape did probably grasp onto those 'friendships" that he had with those people a bit more after Lily left him. He was happy to be Lily's best friend, however, he needed something to comfort him after he left, and I do think that other Death Eater-Youths helped him (not Lucius because Lucius was a 5th year when Snape was a 1st year) and his interest in the Dark Arts spiked as he watched Lily and the Marauders from afar.

i though mabye snape didn't actually like her at first, he seemed to just want to be friends ..but deep down i knew he had a yearning for her i loved his jealousy, that was so relaistic!!

I think a lot of people seem to be against Snape and Lily actually having possibilities, or Lily maybe having feelings for Snape, because they want to buy into the whole Lily-And-James-Were-The-Magical-Perfect-Couple. Snape and James are really around the same level there. JKR says that Snape was more culpable than LV, because he had been loved. How much more culpable is James, then? James, who has always been loved all of his life by everyone, and whose interest in Lily probably started with the fact that she /wasn't/ automatically in love with him? James is more of a bully than Snape is-if you look at what Lily is castigating Snape for, she is finding fault with his friend's behavior, not with his. Snape is not known at Hogwarts for tormenting people, and as we can see by the Potions book Harry discovered, he certainly had the spells to do it. He invented the spells, and pleased with his brilliance, maybe showed them off, and then James and the Marauders went to town abusing him and others with them.

Lily had a choice between the two of them. Both were, at the time of her choice, significantly flawed. James was egotistic and a tormentor. Snape was insecure and desperate for acceptance, to "be somebody", and tried the route to acceptance expressed by the acceptance of the oldest wizarding families. The 'aristocracy' of the wizarding world, if you will.

James is shown as significantly improving, but he remains a bully to the end; Snape was always 'an exception', and he hexed him whenever Lily wasn't looking. Snape, by the end of the books, we can see has also significantly improved, though he too remains a bully in many ways. And that is deprived of Lily Evan's love. What might he have become with her by his side? I think that Lily had the ability to save one of them, and she chose James to save-for many reasons, some of which superficial probably, but that we should not judge James or Snape through the lens of her choice without acknowledging the power that that choice had.

If Lily was such a good friend to Severus, how come she never gave him a big bottle of shampoo? It could have changed his life!!

Drop the shampoo jokes. Let's get back on topic with some serious discussion, please!

I will also point out quickly: the wizarding world is shown multiple times to have different priorities than the Muggle world. Fashion and suchlike are really not the provenance of the witches and wizards, much to the dismay of some of their younger children in the books as we see them. How much more must it have been utterly irrelevant in earlier days when the society was more old-fashioned?

Now, to tie this in, I will have to say: it's really easy to look at Lily Evans and say that because she is so good and so noble and gave her life for her child, that she must have been perfect all her life. I don't agree. Would anyone really blame her, if at fourteen or fifteen, she pulled a Hermione and went for the Quidditch champion? If she couldn't help but be flattered, just a little, at the concept that this popular, handsome Quidditch champion, that all the girls giggle over, is willing to hang someone upside down just to get her to go out on a date with her? Would we really blame her? She's young, and she doesn't know what she's doing completely either, even if she does know more than Snape.

Some people are also saying that she simply must have known, that it's impossible to hide feelings like that. Ginny didn't let her feelings for Harry be shown until much later, and he was unaware for much of the time she was glaring at Cho and skulking around talking about her boyfriends in front of him. I think it's very, very possible that Snape could have hidden his love for Lily, because she would have nothing to compare it with, having known him so long, and him having no other friends. She wouldn't know what he's like with simple friends he's not in love with, because he HAS none. She wouldn't know what he was like before he fell in love with her, because he's always been in love with her. I agree with a previous poster that she would not have blushed if she didn't like him romantically at least a little bit-but maybe it was hard for her. She had these feelings, but no way to justify them.

What I'm wondering is how Lily will react to seeing Snape now that he's also dead. Do you suppose she'll forgive him being a Death Eater and being so mean to Harry because of what he's done?
I sent a question like this in to the chat! How I'd love to read that, even in a fanfic. As Snape dies, and Harry disappears from his sight, Lily's eyes remain, and then he sees Lily walking towards him, and they have one last conversation before he "moves on." Jo, please write that conversation! In the Enclyclopedia. A lot of the love story in LotR was put in an appendix. More Snape and Lily in the Enclyopedia, please! Hm.

One of the things that really touched me in the Prince's Tale was when Snape told Lily that there is no way she would go to Azkaban, because she was "too..." I felt he was going to say "good" and that he had a real love for that "good" in her. It's as if it was the thing he admired most, the thing his heart beat for, the thing he didn't say. Why could he not bring himself to say the word? And if he loved "good" so much, how could he choose evil? Perhaps because of his insecurity. He didn't identify with the good he saw in Lily. I think it makes it even sadder, and more wrong, too, if he saw good, loved it, and chose evil.

Another thing I've been thinking is that perhaps Snape fell so hard for Lily not only because was she a childhood friend and they had a meaningful past together and she was the only ray of sunshine in his life, but she turned out to be a gorgeous, outgoing, witty, popular, strong, and talented witch. Lily was a bit like the Harry Potter novels. Snape wanted her to be all his own, his discovery... but he couldn't hide her. What a treasure for a kid like Snape, to have the only true best friend and love of his life be someone so wonderful. How could he get over her? How could he not have competition?

Has anyone else noticed also that this desperate, Romantic (with a big R, as in bordering on sickness) love, seems to apply only to the Slytherin House? The Bloody Baron, Snape... The Gryffindors seem capable of moving on: Hermione, Ginny, Ron, Harry... They all have other experiences. And then we have this intensity in the Slytherin House. Why?

Lily had a choice between the two of them. Both were, at the time of her choice, significantly flawed. James was egotistic and a tormentor. Snape was insecure and desperate for acceptance, to "be somebody", and tried the route to acceptance expressed by the acceptance of the oldest wizarding families. The 'aristocracy' of the wizarding world, if you will.
But Lily knew the difference between being "an arrogant toerag" and being an evil Dark wizard. She tried to explain it to Snape, but he wasn't listening. I suspect she tried to explain it many times before she gave up on him. It's an important distinction in these books. Someone can be arrogant, annoying, and stupid, but none of those things are the same as being evil/Dark/a Death Eater.

About whether people knew about them being friends or not: They went to Hogwarts where rumors ran rampant and things were blown out of proportion so I'm pretty sure that if the Marauders knew about Snape and Lily being friends/friendly, Snape's Slytherin "friends" did also. He probably had to try to maintain an act of indifference since I'm sure his friends had a few choice words to say about Lily (most of which I'm sure Snape didn't appreciate). I can see Snape's friends thinking that Snape was friendly with Lily as some sort of cruel, sick joke.

Lily-And-James-Were-The-Magical-Perfect-Couple
They can still be a Magical Perfect Couple (assuming that such a thing exists, even in fiction). Lily having once been friends with Snape doesn't change that. Jo confirmed that Lily didn't love Snape romantically, although things might have been different were it not for his fascination with the Dark Arts and association with Death Eaters.How much more culpable is James, then? James, who has always been loved all of his life by everyone, and whose interest in Lily probably started with the fact that she /wasn't/ automatically in love with him? James is more of a bully than Snape is-if you look at what Lily is castigating Snape for, she is finding fault with his friend's behavior, not with his. Snape is not known at Hogwarts for tormenting people, and as we can see by the Potions book Harry discovered, he certainly had the spells to do it. He invented the spells, and pleased with his brilliance, maybe showed them off, and then James and the Marauders went to town abusing him and others with them.
And Lily understood the difference between arrogance and evil. James Potter was a spoiled little rich kid, too popular for his own good, and yes, he attacked Snape on at least one, probably several occasions (it is canon that Snape often attacked first and "James couldn't be expected to take that lying down"). But he did not associate with Death Eaters, use Dark Magic against other students as Snape's friends did, and as Snape himself did in SWM, with the Dark curse he invented himself - sectumsempra. James was a prat. Snape was a Death Eater. There is a difference.

Now, to tie this in, I will have to say: it's really easy to look at Lily Evans and say that because she is so good and so noble and gave her life for her child, that she must have been perfect all her life. I don't agree. Would anyone really blame her, if at fourteen or fifteen, she pulled a Hermione and went for the Quidditch champion? If she couldn't help but be flattered, just a little, at the concept that this popular, handsome Quidditch champion, that all the girls giggle over, is willing to hang someone upside down just to get her to go out on a date with her? Would we really blame her? She's young, and she doesn't know what she's doing completely either, even if she does know more than Snape.
Are you comparing Lily and James with Hermione and Krum? Lily and James got married, after all, and everything we have indicates that they were very happy together. Also, Lily didn't start dating James until they were 17 and he had got himself straightened out. It wasn't a passing teenage fancy - it was the real thing. It was love. I don't see any reason to "blame" or not blame Lily for loving James.

But Snape was not a Death Eater until after Lily rejected him, which is kind of the point I'm trying to make. James /did/ use Dark Magic against other students-we've established that he used Snape's own personal hexes against Snape himself, and that's one of the reasons Snape gets so mad when Harry tries to use sectumsempra against him.

I don't believe Snape was actually /evil/ at the point that Lily rejected him. Did he have bad friends who tormented others? Certainly, but so too did James. I'm also wondering where precisely the difference lies between Dark Magic and other magic. Harry himself used the sectumsempra against Draco and tried to use it against Severus. Harry tried to use the Crucio against Bellatrix Lestrange. Does that make him an evil Dark Wizard? No, it makes him someone who in some hot-tempered moments, used some spells he really shouldn't have, one of which he wasn't quite sure what it did at the time.

Also, is it canon that Snape actually /did/ attack first and James retaliated? I remember Sirius telling us that, but Sirius is himself a highly biased observer. In canon, we see James and Severus' first interaction being James tormenting Severus, not the other way around. I also think that if Severus tormented others, it would have been that which Lily would have told him upset her, not the actions of Mulciber and Avery.

James /did/ use Dark Magic against other students-we've established that he used Snape's own personal hexes against Snape himself, and that's one of the reasons Snape gets so mad when Harry tries to use sectumsempra against him.
James never used Sectumsempra, which is universally acknowledged to be serious Dark magic and was invented by Snape. Snape's own spell that James used against him was the relatively harmless Levicorpus. Not Sectumsempra. It is canon that James hated Dark magic and would never use Dark magic. And Lily knew this. She tried to explain it to Snape, but he didn't or wouldn't understand - he wouldn't even listen, but kept on thinking (according to Jo's recent statement) that if he only became a Death Eater Lily would be impressed!

Also, is it canon that Snape actually /did/ attack first and James retaliated? I remember Sirius telling us that, but Sirius is himself a highly biased observer.
No - it was Lupin who said that, and he has repeatedly been used as a reliable and unbiased source of information. For example, he never said a bad word about Snape in front of Harry.

Lily did have standards. She couldn't love a Death Eater, or someone who sympathised with them. She refused to date James until he straightened out. There was always a big basic difference between James and Snape, and we see it pretty clearly in what each of them did to win Lily. Snape didn't listen to her pleading, but tried to impress her by becoming a big, powerful Death Eater. James modified his behaviour and won Lily's love. IMO, Lily made the right choice in James. He was a fine man, and not burdened with Snape's personal limitations. Snape was too messed up to ever be happily married, IMO, but James and Lily were very happy together.

I think you're reading a lot in that I may not be. I'm not sure that I accept any of the original Marauders as unbiased and reliable. For that matter, I'm not sure I accept anyone's account as unbiased-everyone is a deep and rich character, and so everyone has biases based on their own viewpoints and their own experience-even Lupin. Lupin is certainly one of the more mature members of the Marauders, but he is not an entirely holy saint who is incapable of passing wrong or biased information to Harry. If there's one thing we learn throughout the series, it's that no character has done that. Even Dumbledore helped to convince Harry that Snape owed a debt to James, in order to conceal a truth he did not wish known.

It's true that JKR has come out and said that Snape wanted to impress Lily, and thought that becoming a Death Eater would do it (at the time, you will recall, when the full evil scope of the Death Eaters was not wholly known. Many of the old wizarding families rejoiced in what the Death Eaters represented, but then drew back from the tactics they exhibited in later years.) But that in no way suggests, in my eyes, that Snape was already evil or already a Death Eater in his fifth year at Hogwarts.

Also, I think it is hardly fair to compare what James did in his seventh year to what Snape did in his fifth year and hilight them as differences between the two. In James' fifth year, he was hanging Snape by his ankles and saying he would let him down if Lily went out with him-hardly praiseworthy or attractive behavior.

I will agree with you that Snape was too tormented by his inner demons to ever make the easy, comfortable sort of husband that James may well have, and that may well have influenced Lily's choice. I'm not sure that makes her better or worse, really perhaps just a teenager who thought of her comfort once in a while. She may have had the possibility of loving Severus much more richly and deeply, having known him for so long positively, but their life would never have been easy-and perhaps, in a time of so much tumult, she didn't want to have to do so much battling in her personal life.

I'm not sure that makes her better or worse, really perhaps just a teenager who thought of her comfort once in a while. What? You think she decided on James because she wanted to be comfortable or she liked him being a jock. She decided on James because he cleaned up on his act (and became Head Boy), so his other virtues could be seen.

Snape, on the other hand, joined the Hogwarts chapter of the junior DEs and started dabbling in Dark Magic. He refused to stop when she pleaded. He lost her all on his own since he revealed the dark side of his nature.

She wasn't Snape's girlfriend, and she did not view him romantically. Jo said had he cleaned up his act Lily might have come to that. But that is just speculation--even from Jo.

And as for Lupin's comments and Snape hexing James any chance he got. First, it has never been contradicted, and we now have a finished series. For us to decide he was lying, we would need canon countering his statement. Jo has always revealed any hidden information for us to understand previously disguised events. Second, how hard is it to imagine Snape hexing James out of jealousy once Lily started dating James? Jo has told us that Snape was spiteful, so it isn't a stretch to see him behaving badly toward James. Just look at how he loathed Harry all those years later.

Now, to tie this in, I will have to say: it's really easy to look at Lily Evans and say that because she is so good and so noble and gave her life for her child, that she must have been perfect all her life. I don't agree. Would anyone really blame her, if at fourteen or fifteen, she pulled a Hermione and went for the Quidditch champion? If
She didn't date James until her seventh year so she was 17, not 14. And Hermione did end up with Ron, not Viktor.

Second, how hard is it to imagine Snape hexing James out of jealousy once Lily started dating James?
Just chiming in to say that it's not too hard to imagine at all, no.

However, I do sort of wonder if the hexing reduced from James partly because he changed into a better guy and partly because he no longer had a reason to be jealous of Snape's close friendship with Lily. JKR said that that was a cause of James' bullying towards Snape but I can't really see James having much to really bully him for at that point...

It is canon that James hated Dark magic and would never use Dark magic.
Well to be fair I doubt Harry liked dark magic either but he still used it on quite a few occasions. Then again, desperate times...

James never used Sectumsempra, which is universally acknowledged to be serious Dark magic

Really? By whom?

Snape's own spell that James used against him was the relatively harmless Levicorpus. Not Sectumsempra. It is canon that James hated Dark magic and would never use Dark magic.

Yes, he used Levicorpus to humiliate Snape in the worst way possible, used an Impediment Jinx so harshly it knocked Snape several feet in the air, used Scourgify so forcefully it made him gag and choke. Snape retaliated by giving James a cut on the cheek -- the equivalent of throwing a punch. The "darkness" or "lightness" of the spells used is completely irrelevant, IMO... rather like arguing that a serial killer really isn't so bad if he only uses "harmless" objects, like croquet mallets, to bludgeon people. It is the way the spells are used that matters.

No - it was Lupin who said that, and he has repeatedly been used as a reliable and unbiased source of information. For example, he never said a bad word about Snape in front of Harry.

Hardly. Lupin is human and fallible, like everyone else in the books. He didn't warn Dumbledore that Sirius was an Animagus, or tell him about the secret entrances to Hogwarts. His explanation for why Snape didn't like James was that he was "jealous of James' talent on the Quidditch field," which IMO is tantamount to a lie, in light of SWM. At the very least it shows an incredible bias.

She refused to date James until he straightened out. There was always a big basic difference between James and Snape, and we see it pretty clearly in what each of them did to win Lily.

Actually, we know (also from Lupin) that James did not "straighten out"; he merely hid his attacks on Snape from Lily. So, Snape looked the part of a nasty git, while James looked innocent. Lily was good, but it seems that maybe she did not know James as well as she thought.

Or Severus.

IMO, Lily made the right choice in James. He was a fine man, and not burdened with Snape's personal limitations. Snape was too messed up to ever be happily married, IMO, but James and Lily were very happy together.


Actually, if Lily had chosen Snape, we don't know that it might not have been Severus who became the "fine man", and James who might have become bitter and disillusioned. Not that James would have become a Death Eater, but as we have seen in the book, many people who seemed good were less than noble, including Sirius and Peter from the Marauders.

It seems as though Lily's choice changed the lives of everyone she touched, for better or for worse.

I think you're reading a lot in that I may not be. I'm not sure that I accept any of the original Marauders as unbiased and reliable. For that matter, I'm not sure I accept anyone's account as unbiased-everyone is a deep and rich character, and so everyone has biases based on their own viewpoints and their own experience-even Lupin. Lupin is certainly one of the more mature members of the Marauders, but he is not an entirely holy saint who is incapable of passing wrong or biased information to Harry. If there's one thing we learn throughout the series, it's that no character has done that. Even Dumbledore helped to convince Harry that Snape owed a debt to James, in order to conceal a truth he did not wish known.
So is anything in the books unbiased? Lupin, as Anabel stated, seems to of always been the stedfast marauder. The mature one. (I'm still not quite sure what happened to this marauder in DH but that's another thread) I don't ever remember reading him saying anything bad about Snape or in fact anything bad about anyone, that didn't come true...

It's true that JKR has come out and said that Snape wanted to impress Lily, and thought that becoming a Death Eater would do it (at the time, you will recall, when the full evil scope of the Death Eaters was not wholly known. Many of the old wizarding families rejoiced in what the Death Eaters represented, but then drew back from the tactics they exhibited in later years.) But that in no way suggests, in my eyes, that Snape was already evil or already a Death Eater in his fifth year at Hogwarts.
There had to of been enough known about the Death Eaters for Lily to of known that they were evil. Sure they may not of seemed evil to the pure-blooded families who didn't see the full ramiphications of what the Death Eaters were actually about. But Lily knew they were evil. Sure, JK said that if Snape hadn't of joined the Death Eaters, Lily could have loved him, but if he hadn't of joined the Death Eaters, he would have been a completely different person... It was a part of who he was...


Just chiming in to say that it's not too hard to imagine at all, no.

However, I do sort of wonder if the hexing reduced from James partly because he changed into a better guy and partly because he no longer had a reason to be jealous of Snape's close friendship with Lily. JKR said that that was a cause of James' bullying towards Snape but I can't really see James having much to really bully him for at that point...
I have a suspecion that James would have had to of become a better person prior to dating Lily... Otherwise she wouldn't have dated him at all... So finally getting the girl wasn't the reason for his change...

I think that James stopped hexing people as part of cleaning up his act. Lupin told us that Snape kept hexing James and that James had to retaliate. Lily didn't see James retaliating, but I bet Snape made sure she didn't see him hexing James, either.

Lupin was always fair and honest about Snape. He didn't carry the animosity we saw Sirius have with Snape. In fact, other than what Dumbledore deliberately concealed from Harry, none of the characters on the side of good ever lied. And that includes the Marauders (except Wormtail who wasn't on the good side). An author only has so many ways to get out backstory. Having characters relate past events that they have direct information about is one of them. The surviving good Marauders were uniquely positioned to fill in some information about their time at Hogwarts.

Lily was the ideal girl a boy like snape would fal inlove with i loved how she prtrayed her as a child girl she seemed so free spirit and she was expeting of snape..at first



i wish they did a little more with snape and lily though shown snape try to kiss her or somthing,that would have been great ..really feel his pain for her!!!!

Really? By whom?
By everyone who said that George couldn't grow back his ear since it was cut off by Dark Magic.
It seems as though Lily's choice changed the lives of everyone she touched, for better or for worse.
It was Snape's choice that sealed the deal. Lily begged him to not hang out with the junior DEs. She begged him not to dabble in black magic. It was Snape's choice that drove her away. That's what makes it so tragic.

What? You think she decided on James because she wanted to be comfortable or she liked him being a jock. She decided on James because he cleaned up on his act (and became Head Boy), so his other virtues could be seen.

Snape, on the other hand, joined the Hogwarts chapter of the junior DEs and started dabbling in Dark Magic. He refused to stop when she pleaded. He lost her all on his own since he revealed the dark side of his nature.

We really don't know when and how James cleaned up his act-or if he even did. Note how James continued to torment Severus whenever Lily wasn't looking. The mention was that James didnt' hex Snape on their dates, which means James was still hexing Snape seventh year, when he was supposedly 'reformed'.

Also, I agree with a previous poster: the difference between Dark Magic and Light Magic is likely not that clear-cut. Where is the difference between the Death Eaters holding Muggles up in the air by their ankles and sending them on a terrifying ride (mentioned as Dark Magic and feared by the Ministry) and James holding Severus by his ankles after he had finished choking him? The only evidence that Snape directly was the aggressor in hexing James is from Lupin, someone who nearly hero-worshipped James. Yes, Lupin does not speak badly of Severus too often-Snape did make the potion that helped him, after all. But neither does he /ever/ speak ill of James, and it would be very out of character for him to do so, especially talking to James' son.

I think we cannot conclusively say that Snape turned to evil until he actually became a Death Eater-which, given the timing of everything, I believe took place after he got out of Hogwarts, as well. Then, he was evil, yes-but that is also long after Lily made the decision to move away from him.



And as for Lupin's comments and Snape hexing James any chance he got. First, it has never been contradicted, and we now have a finished series. For us to decide he was lying, we would need canon countering his statement. Jo has always revealed any hidden information for us to understand previously disguised events.

That I don't agree with. There are a lot of times that people speak with biases throughout the series-JKR does not clear up each and every instance, perhaps because she doesn't need to. We're not always going to know everything, and she may not figure that we need a clue-by-four to understand the writing. I don't think the absence of another character giving contradictory info is really needed, but if one is needed, look to Snape. Snape is certainly quite vehement about James being the initiator, and we also have his memories in the Pensieve, and Lily's lack of any knowledge of Snape himself acting badly by hexing people.

i wish JK went a little more in depth with lily's personlaity and her exact feelings and emotions on snape. i like when she droans on about somthing i am interested in ...this would have been one of them

Lupin was always fair and honest about Snape. He didn't carry the animosity we saw Sirius have with Snape.

Remus Lupin was very close friends with both James Potter and Sirius Black. I think that he tried to be objective, which certainly cannot be said for Sirius, but that does not mean that he really was objective.

And even Lupin admitted that James continued going after Snape while he was dating Lily, so no, he had definitely not cleaned up his act, he just got good at acting. Lily chose the good-looking athlete, who said the right things and was careful not to show bad behavior in front of her. That happens a lot in life, and while Lily was a fine person, she was also a young woman who could be impressed by good looks and a smooth image. In that respect, Severus was more honest than James but clueless about what would impress Lily; he never learned what he needed to be to win Lily, when he had the chance, and James learned along the way, becoming the man after he won the part.


EDIT - Just saw Crowheart's earlier comment, posted while I was writing this. So I guess I second Crowheart's statement!

i wish JK went a little more in depth with lily's personlaity and her exact feelings and emotions on snape. i like when she droans on about somthing i am interested in ...this would have been one of them

oh she does give a lot more detail but not in the book,if i remeber correctly she says liliy might have even had feelings romantic feelings for snape if he hadnt been friends with mulciber and gotten so deep into the dark arts

In fact, other than what Dumbledore deliberately concealed from Harry, none of the characters on the side of good ever lied. And that includes the Marauders (except Wormtail who wasn't on the good side).

There's a large, large difference between a lie and an omission, and a lie and an exaggerated or biased recounting of events. Lupin may never have said anything bad about Snape, but how much good did he say, either? Did he ever talk about Snape being Harry's mother's friend at one point, so he must have had some good in him? In fact, for that matter, how much did Lupin talk of Lily herself at all? We have very little backstory of Lily-the most we see is actually from Slughorn. Lupin and Sirius were never really Lily's friends, they were James'. They accepted his wife, but she was certainly less important to him, as were her friends, antics in school, and choices.

Honestly, though I realize this is a bit of a sidenote, it's almost troubling, given how much JKR loves to emphasize the mother-bond, that Harry didn't take it upon himself to try to find out more information about her.

The topic is Snape and Lily, not bash the lying Marauders. I would say that Snape is not a reliable source about the Marauders if you take into consideration his own animosity and spite. He loathed Harry 20 years after the events.

I really don't care how James may have treated Snape. Snape is the only person responsible for losing Lily. She didn't make some fluffy-headed decision to dump Snape for the popular jock. Snape's own choices drove Lily away.

And Sectumsempra is Dark. Snape told us that himself in HBP. And multiple characters in DH told us that was why George couldn't regrow his ear. And it was Lily who thought that Snape was getting too deeply involved in the Dark Arts and the junior DEs.

i wish JK went a little more in depth with lily's personlaity and her exact feelings and emotions on snape. i like when she droans on about somthing i am interested in ...this would have been one of them

I agree, although in the Leaky Cauldron chat transcript on the main MN page that just went up she says this:

-"Jaclyn: Did lily ever have feelings back for snape?"

-"J.K. Rowling: Yes. She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts."

So she actually had feelings back for him, maybe even a bit of a crush, or maybe it never developed so far...

I actually have a question for anyone posting in this thread:
I think, in the old "Snape Loves Lily" and "All-Purpose, No-Holes, Dreaded etc, etc" threads, people mentioned a song or songs that suit Snape in this particular instance.

Can anyone think of any or remember what they were? I think Garbage's "#1 Crush" is a good one.

Also, what are everyone's thoughts on the Snape-Heathcliff (from Wuthering Heights) theory now that the truth is known?

I totally agree with the post above,it was Snape own falut he lost lily,i dont think she fancied james much at the begginig ,he did make a fool of himself when she was around.

And there snape had advantage ,she was his friend,but his interest on Dark stuff drove her away into James arms.

It was Snape's choice that drove her away. That's what makes it so tragic.
Agreed. I hate to say it but I would have kicked him to the curb too.

Nevertheless, I still think she cared for him. I mean, her best friend was dabbling into a darkness that she couldn't seem to break through at the time so I'm sure it made her upset and worried.

Nevertheless, I still think she cared for him. I mean, her best friend was dabbling into a darkness that she couldn't seem to break through at the time so I'm sure it made her upset and worried.
Oh absolutely. She really worried about him and pleaded with him to turn away from that.

So she actually had feelings back for him, maybe even a bit of a crush, or maybe it never developed so far...
No crush, because Jo didn't say there was one. She said that Lily loved him as a friend.

well we know she did ..it was for her ,he left all that,even after her death lily did something good for him,so sad snapes story no wonder he was so bitter

James-Lily is important because it shows light on Severus-Lily, especially since the blow-up between Severus and Lily - no coincidence I think - happens right after

- James publicly torments and humiliates Severus in front of lily, who smiles
- Severus loses his composure and calls Lily the one thing that shatters her patience with him

That is, we see not only that Lily rejects Severus, but that he realizes she is leaning towards his most hated rival. He tries desperately to apologize, but is unwilling to give up what he sees as his only weapon against James.

Ironically, in this incident Severus' emotion keeps him from seeing

- that it is the Dark magic and the racism which offends Lily
- that there is no strength or advantage for Severus in the Dark magic
- that by refusing to let go of the Dark magic, he drives Lily towards James

Only later does Severus understand some of this, and that is the tragedy of the last volume.

Agreed. I hate to say it but I would have kicked him to the curb too.

Nevertheless, I still think she cared for him. I mean, her best friend was dabbling into a darkness that she couldn't seem to break through at the time so I'm sure it made her upset and worried.

You're most definately right. I think we've all experienced a friend doing something that we can see is wrong but not being able to stop/help them...

No crush, because Jo didn't say there was one. She said that Lily loved him as a friend.

Perhaps never quite a crush, but I'm just going on Jo's quote "Yes she had feelings for him back" or whatever.

I can't remember, CBW, but were you one of the supporters of the Snape-Heathcliff story? And if so, what do you think about it now?

Sorry to keep harping on about this, but I'm really eager to discuss!

I didn't realize we weren't supposed to address the poster; I read through the thread and several of the forums, but it seemed several people were talking back and forth to individuals using their names. Apologies if I erred there. It seemed as though it was being heated with the 'not bash the lying Marauders' comment: I have tried to be very careful to stay on topic with every post. Apologies again if I read that incorrectly.

Perhaps never quite a crush, but I'm just going on Jo's quote "Yes she had feelings for him back" or whatever.

I can't remember, CBW, but were you one of the supporters of the Snape-Heathcliff story? And if so, what do you think about it now?

Sorry to keep harping on about this, but I'm really eager to discuss!I wasn't really a supporter of the theory. I can see where Snape's choices have tragic all the way down the line. First, his bigotry, then the Dark Arts, then reporting the prophecy, which ultimately resulted in Lily's death. All wrong choices which did haunt his entire life.

Jo said she loved him as a friend. She said had Snape turned away from the Dark Arts Lily might have come to love him.

I didn't realize we weren't supposed to address the poster; I read through the thread and several of the forums, but it seemed several people were talking back and forth to individuals using their names. Apologies if I erred there. It seemed as though it was being heated with the 'not bash the lying Marauders' comment: I have tried to be very careful to stay on topic with every post. Apologies again if I read that incorrectly.
We can certainly address people. But we aren't supposed to give our opinions characterizing the poster, him or herself. I wasn't getting heated. I have some trouble typing and my relies can be rather terse at times.

But we really don't have to shift the blame for Snape's bad choices onto either James or Lily. Snape doomed himself.

In fact, other than what Dumbledore deliberately concealed from Harry, none of the characters on the side of good ever lied.

I can only assume you're not including Harry Ron or Hermione on the 'good guys' side! :rotfl:

Crowheart, welcome to the discussion! I'm sorry you appear to have been stomped on with both feet since you began posting in this thread. Snape discussion seems to bring out the obsessive in many of our posters. Don't let it get to you.

Ah, I see. Thank you for the clarification.

I definitely would agree that in many ways Snape doomed himself. I simply think that Lily had the potential at least to pull him back from that doom, as I personally view that she pulled James back. I think also that Snape in many ways was doomed from the start: even had he not joined the Death Eaters, or aspired to join them, he was significantly flawed and psychologically damaged from his family and upbringing. (Honestly, it's a small miracle Harry turned out as normal as he did!) I think that while Lily may well have loved him romantically (and I personally think that having feelings back for Snape can include a crush, while still falling short of actual romantic /love/. No one would say Harry loved Cho Chang, for example), she would never have had the same life living with Snape as she would have living with James.

James, as previously stated, grew up in a household full of love, and even if he was spoiled and treated Snape badly, even if he didn't know how to win Lily's affections at first, he did know how to inspire loyalty and how to treat his friends and those he gave his heart to. What would have happened had Snape not joined those people? I think he and Lily would indeed have gotten together and he might well have been a fine man for her-but never one entirely free of demons.

And I think that on some level, Lily knew that. That's what I say when I say that she took the easy choice. Loving Snape would have been fraught with heartache, even with him trying his best to reform, whereas loving a James trying to reform was easy. Would Snape have been a good father? Could anyone honestly see Snape raising a loving and healthy family? I think Snape would always have struggled with the 'simpler things' of life, due to his emotional IQ issues. I think that, while it may not have been a conscious decision, she must have sensed that somehow, and chose the person who could provide her a bit of normalcy in love-a love that was not full of conflict, because her life was so very, very conflicted.

Also, thank you for the warm welcome, Inkwolf!

Let's get back to discussing Snape and Lily's relationship as it was revealed in Deathly Hallows---that's the topic of this thread and not the Marauder's.

Crowheart, welcome to the discussion! I'm sorry you appear to have been stomped on with both feet since you began posting in this thread. Snape discussion seems to bring out the obsessive in many of our posters. Don't let it get to you.
Frankly it's rather hard to see statements about Lily being attracted to the jock and accused of taking the easy way out by dating James. Snape drove her away. It was his bad choices that ended their relationship. That was the heart of the tragedy surrounding Snape.

It wasn't James's fault. It wasn't Lily's fault. It was strictly Snape's own fault.

About whether people knew about them being friends or not: They went to Hogwarts where rumors ran rampant and things were blown out of proportion so I'm pretty sure that if the Marauders knew about Snape and Lily being friends/friendly, Snape's Slytherin "friends" did also. He probably had to try to maintain an act of indifference since I'm sure his friends had a few choice words to say about Lily (most of which I'm sure Snape didn't appreciate). I can see Snape's friends thinking that Snape was friendly with Lily as some sort of cruel, sick joke.
That would probably explain why Snape had no one to help him in SWM.

And also why James put Lily's going out with him as a price for getting off Severus -- such a request would be too much even for a very arrogant boy, but if everyone knew rumors about Evans and Snape, it's another matter: it's a sort of house loyalty question. "Evans, prove that you are a real Gryffindor, not a Slytherin-lover, by going out with me -- than I will get off him".

Another question on SWM that, although wasn't explained definitely, has got some new context, is why Snape called Evans "Mudblood" when she came to help him.

Previously, I thought it had something to do with Levicorpus. My theory was that Severus thought that Lily had leaked its secret to James, possibly via HBP potions textbook, and that's why he turned on her after Potter had used Levicorpus.

Nothing in DH explicitly contradicts this theory, and the lack of such memory in the Prince's Tale can be explained away: Severus could erase every piece of memory putting Lily in bad light. However, now I think this explanation is unneeded.

We have no date for the memory in PT preceding SWM, that one where Lily talks about Mulciber and Avery, and Severus about James, but we can guess it wasn't very far from SWM. It's possible that Severus indeed distanced himself a bit from his friends, and that they, knowing the reason, would distance themselves even more. That's why nobody comes to help Severus except Lily.

But such help from a girl is very humiliating. In some sense, it's worse than no help at all, this hiding behind girl's skirt. When the male pride in injured in such way, it's natural to long for the return of the lost friends' camaraderie, to blame the girl who had broken it, and now is adding insult to injury even without realising it. To insult her 'back', as he thinks. To refuse her, and her help.

Of course, it's all seems foolish mistake when it's over, hence the (again humiliating) pleas for forgiveness, but he hadn't been forgiven. He cannot choose between DEs and Lily, he doesn't understand he can't have both. Later his worst nightmares about Evans making up with Potter come true, so the need for acceptance of his Death Eater friends and, later, his Dark Lord, comes forward, until he realises that Lily is in danger, and that he is the culprit.

Snape was friends with several Slytherins who went on to become DEs. It seems rather logical that he showed them Levicorpus.

And also why James put Lily's going out with him as a price for getting off Severus -- such a request would be too much even for a very arrogant boy, but if everyone knew rumors about Evans and Snape, it's another matter: it's a sort of house loyalty question. "Evans, prove that you are a real Gryffindor, not a Slytherin-lover, by going out with me -- than I will get off him".
I'm sort of confused by this. Can you elaborate please? :)

Can anybody post exactly what Remus (or was it Sirius) said in OotPabout the hexing coming to a halt by the time James and Lily were dating? Is it canon that Lily told James to stop hexing Snape?

I can only assume you're not including Harry Ron or Hermione on the 'good guys' side!
Those kids were quite good liars :lol:

I actually do agree that it was Snape's own misguided actions which made it necessary for Lily to break off the relationship. It's a pity Snape wasn't equipped to understand what was going on, and it's a shame Lily never managed to make him understand that she valued him for himself, not for his potential to kick some serious buttocks.

But I would just like to state for the sake of reality: in REAL LIFE if your girlfriend (or boyfriend) tries to force you to choose between her/him and all your other friends, it's usually a sign that you're dating a major (and potentially abusive) control freak.

"She started going out with him in seventh year," said Lupin.
"Once James had deflated his head a bit," said Sirius.
"And stopped hexing people just for the fun of it," said Lupin.
"Even Snape?" said Harry
"Well," said Lupin slowly, "Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?"
"And my mum was okay with that?"
"She didn't know to much about it, to tell the truth," said Sirius. "I mean, James didn't take Snape on dates with her and jinx him in front of her, did he?"

Honestly, though I realize this is a bit of a sidenote, it's almost troubling, given how much JKR loves to emphasize the mother-bond, that Harry didn't take it upon himself to try to find out more information about her.

Harry did not seek out the information about his father either. His father's friends were eventually brought into contact with him by events in PoA and onwards, and they told him stuff. Of course, Harry actually knew his mother's best friend from most of school the whole time, but he wasn't talking. ;)

I think Harry's quick acceptance of the facts in the memories Snape gave him is actually a reflection of the thing you mention, about the mother bond. We are not given Harry's thought process about Snape and Lily, much (naturally - after seeing the memories Harry goes off to die, which I would expect to occupy his full attention). However, the way Harry speaks of Snape and his mother to Voldemort in their final confrontation, suggests to me that this motivation for Snape moved him like no other one could have.

Gah, everything I was saying got eaten! :(

Okay, what I said before is that I actually DO think that the Mudblood comment slipped. It cannot be justifyed but he was in a really horrible situation. I mean, 16 years old and hanging upside down with his own spell and his underwear is showing and threated to be pulled off while earlier he was petrified and reduced to coughing up pink soap bubbles. Snape is a pretty proud guy so having all that happen and then having his best friend who happens to be a girl to help him must have really been incredibly overwhelming.

So while I don't think Lily did the wrong thing to not forgive Severus for his actions, and while I think it was a horrible thing to call her, I'm not entirely surprised he did it (though I'm sure Lily was :().

He seemed to always say the wrong thing in his teens, didn't he?

Also, somebody should have asked JKR if James really did pull off Snape's underpants >_>

And thank you for the quote, Kingwidget!

"Well," said Lupin slowly, "Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?"
"And my mum was okay with that?"
"She didn't know to much about it, to tell the truth," said Sirius. "I mean, James didn't take Snape on dates with her and jinx him in front of her, did he?"

This bit always seemed to mean more to me than I suppose it should have, especially the last bit that Sirius said and Snape being "a special case". I don't know what exactly it was but I couldn't help but think there was something more to Snape's reaction to James/Lily.

Ha, imagine if Lily knew about everything going on behind the scenes with James and Snape's fighting. I don't think she'd be very pleased :lol: Also, since James suspected that Snape fancied Lily, I'm sure he felt quite pleased to "strut around the castle" with her knowing Snape was likely incredibly jealous.

Can anybody post exactly what Remus (or was it Sirius) said in OotPabout the hexing coming to a halt by the time James and Lily were dating? Is it canon that Lily told James to stop hexing Snape?
"Well," said Lupin slowly, "Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?"
"And my mum was okay with that?"
"She didn't know to much about it, to tell the truth," said Sirius. "I mean, James didn't take Snape on dates with her and jinx him in front of her, did he?"

I see that Kingwidgit posted the canon about that - or really all we have. It's clear that Lily didn't know "much about" what was happening between James and Snape.

Ha, imagine if Lily knew about everything going on behind the scenes with James and Snape's fighting. I don't think she'd be very pleased Also, since James suspected that Snape fancied Lily, I'm sure he felt quite pleased to "strut around the castle" with her knowing Snape was likely incredibly jealous.

Correct - the new canon seems to be that what happened between James and Severus was based on jealousy instead of House rivalry or Snape's "Dark Arts" obsession.

It's all about the human nature of the teenage male, and not some noble duel of light versus dark. :rolleyes:

However, the way Harry speaks of Snape and his mother to Voldemort in their final confrontation, suggests to me that this motivation for Snape moved him like no other one could have.
I agree - I love the way Harry talks about Snape to Voldemort, and throws it in his face. :)

Correct - the new canon seems to be that what happened between James and Severus was based on jealousy instead of House rivalry or Snape's "Dark Arts" obsession.

It's all about the human nature of the teenage male, and not some noble duel of light versus dark.
I think JKR suggested that the Snape/Lily thing was a factor but not the whole reason why James bullied Snape. However, I'm inclined to believe that James had girls on the brain more than Snape being into dark magic (the latter probably became a bigger factor when the war got worse).

But yes, teenage boys + jealousy + a girl never seems to be a good combination. I definitely know since I'm friends with quite a few! :lol:

I think it definitely excuses both boys behavior (as teenagers) a bit, knowing that they both knew they were competing for Lily's attention. Still, from what we saw, James took it a bit far at points, but I'm sure Snape probably did the same thing. I just mean, it's not like they just picked on each other for no reason, they weren't your typical Draco Malfoys, it was personal to some degree.

What really makes me sad/upset is that this compitition of sorts for Lily and Snape feeling that they're relationship was threatened was likely a strong reason why the DEs stupidly seemed like such a good option. HEY, THIS'LL GET LILY'S ATTENTION SO SHE'LL IGNORE POTTER! Yeah right, Snape. He really should have known better although I can understand his worries since Lily was beautiful and popular and likely had some admireres (many male...and not Snape. Oh I do love romance with jealousy thrown in :lol:).

But I would just like to state for the sake of reality: in REAL LIFE if your girlfriend (or boyfriend) tries to force you to choose between her/him and all your other friends, it's usually a sign that you're dating a major (and potentially abusive) control freak. But even in real life, being close friends with a gang of Neonazis and finding their hate crimes "fun" would pose a glaring problem. I can't imagine who would call Lily a control freak given this situation. And the Death Eaters are the equivalent of such a gang. People might say to her that she can't change Snape, and she just needs to distance herself from him. She asked him to distance himself from them because she cared, and perhaps saw the better side of him.

But I can't believe Snape thought he'd impress Lily with joining the Death Eaters, when Lily was an intended victim of the group. Would Jo agree that he had a bit of autism? He didn't get it. And he has a bit of a speech/thinking/acting impediment under emotional stress. I think this makes him more sad than evil. But even people with problems can make choices. Neville had some emotional difficulties, too (maybe Snape hated him because he identified), but Neville made the right choices and became strong.

I only wish Lily hadn't smiled when James was torturing Snape. And it is annoying to think of James, who never suffered, "giving lessons" to Snape, who knew a lot of pain: cruel, demeaning lessons that repeated the abuse Snape knew at home. I guess James was still young, and Snape made bad choices even as an adult, but still.

Canon suggests Lily and James were perfectly matched because of their patronuses. Snape's patronus is not a stag, it is a doe, so there's this feeling that they are not matched. Rather, Snape is taking something from Lily. He is losing his identity.

But yes, teenage boys + jealousy + a girl never seems to be a good combination. I definitely know since I'm friends with quite a few! :lol: Good point. :)

What really makes me sad/upset is that this compitition of sorts for Lily and Snape feeling that they're relationship was threatened was likely a strong reason why the DEs stupidly seemed like such a good option. HEY, THIS'LL GET LILY'S ATTENTION SO SHE'LL IGNORE POTTER! Yeah right, Snape. He really should have known better although I can understand his worries since Lily was beautiful and popular and likely had some admireres (many male...and not Snape. Oh I do love romance with jealousy thrown in :lol:).

Yes, what mostly upsets me is how we know how the story ends, and dear Snape did not win. :( I wish we'd at least have gotten to see more of James' good side so he didn't seem like such a bad choice.

I do think perhaps it was a bit of the idea that he was already losing Lily that pushed him into that path, though, not just the idea of impressing her.

I'm sort of confused by this. Can you elaborate please? :)
Taken outside Lily-Severus relationship context, this exchange shows James as a worst kind of bully, much worse than any other in the series:

'Leave him alone. What's he done to you?'
'Well', said James, appearing to deliberate the point, 'It's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean...'
Many of the surrounding students laughed, Sirius and Wormtail included, but Lupin, still apparently intent on his book, didn't, and nor did Lily.
''You think you are funny', she said coldly. 'But you're just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter. Leave him alone'.
'I will if you go out with me, Evans', said James quickly. 'Go on... go out with me and I'll never lay a wand on old Snivelly again'.

To beat up a weaker boy 'just because he exists', and threaten to abuse him even more is a very sick way to get a date from a sympathetic girl. I knew some guys who were up to it -- those of them who are still alive have all became bandits.

But if rumors about Snape and Evans are spread in Hogwarts, this means something else. When James said 'the fact he exists', he is alluding to something which others find funny. Obviously, he talks about Evans-Snape rumors. And when he continues with 'go out with me', he dares her to disprove the rumors this way.

It's still nasty, bullying and arrogant, but it's not quite in the same league that it seemed to be.

Can anybody post exactly what Remus (or was it Sirius) said in OotPabout the hexing coming to a halt by the time James and Lily were dating? Is it canon that Lily told James to stop hexing Snape?


Those kids were quite good liars :lol:
'She started going out with him in seventh year,' said Lupin.
'Once James had deflated his head a bit', said Sirius.
'And stopped hexing people just for the fun of it', said Lupin.
'Even Snape?' said Harry.
'Well,', said Lupin slowly, 'Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?'
'And my mum was OK with that?'
'She didn't know too much about it, to tell you the truth', said Sirius. 'I mean, James didn't take Snape on dates with her and jinx him in front of her, did he?'

I wish we'd at least have gotten to see more of James' good side so he didn't seem like such a bad choice.Before there is an uproar in regards to this statement, as many fans believe that James was in no way a 'bad choice' or that Snape was a 'better choice' let's reiterate that the James/Snape dynamic isn't really the topic of this thread.

Again, AS THIS IS STILL A HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL AND SENSITIVE TOPIC WE WOULD LIKE TO ASK EVERYONE TO PLEASE BE SENSITIVE TO OTHERS OPINIONS.

The sole topic of discussion, per the first post of this thread, is the Snape/Lily relationship as it was revealed in Deathly Hallows.

'Leave him alone. What's he done to you?'
'Well', said James, appearing to deliberate the point, 'It's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean...'


I actually imagine Snape was very grateful for this comment in hindsight at least if he looked at for wht I think it was. We know both boys knew the other fancied Lily, and in order for James to confess that the big reason he picked on Sev was that they were competing for her attention he would have had to admit that they both had feelings for her. Neither wanted that, I'm sure.

Before there is an uproar in regards to this statement, as many fans believe that James was in no way a 'bad choice' or that Snape was a 'better choice' let's reiterate that the James/Snape dynamic isn't really the topic of this thread.

Again, AS THIS IS STILL A HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL AND SENSITIVE TOPIC WE WOULD LIKE TO ASK EVERYONE TO PLEASE BE SENSITIVE TO OTHERS OPINIONS.

The sole topic of discussion, per the first post of this thread, is the Snape/Lily relationship as it was revealed in Deathly Hallows.

Oh, I didn't mean it like that at all, I just meant to me. Just because I'm such a sucker for the underdog in a lovestory is all, I did not mean to be insensetive or insult James. I should have conveyed that better.

It is especially interesting to realize that SWM apparently happens AFTER the Werewolf Incident. The level of frustration young Snape felt is therefore racheted up a couple of notches.

From the memory of Lily asking Snape to drop Mulciber and Avery, we find out that Snape's apparent 'main' reason for following the Marauders around was a hope to convince Lily that they were not what they appeared to be. He says "I'm just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are."

And that's where we get the 'reason' (Snape's following the Marauders around) Sirius sent him down the tunnel (as per Sirius himself in PoA).

So, Snape was worried that Lily 'liked' James and the Marauders like everyone else did. And JKR has implied that she did like James (more than she wanted to) during SWM. SNape's insult comes after what seems to amount to a big flirting session between James and Lily - Snape's fear realized - Lily is falling for the 'toerag'. She even thinks Snape 'ungrateful' for not thinking the guys 'wonderful' after James had saved Snape's life.

Note that Lily KNOWS James saved Sev's life within days ('the other night'), while Sev is sworn to secrecy over Remus' condition. All youngSev can see during SWM is that Lily is 'falling' for James, they are flirting - James, who Sev believes was 'in on' trying to kill him just recently - who 'played' the hero to save his own skin and then managed to let Lily 'know' just how 'heroic' he was (and how 'ungrateful' Snape therefore was) - and here he is flirting with Lily (and she's flirting back) - all the while insulting his looks (not one word about the 'dark arts') and telling her it's because Sev has the nerve to exist at all.

And I have no idea why he didn't blurt out that Remus was a werewolf right then, but whatever reason it was, the Marauders seemed quite confident that he wouldn't. So, I'm guessing there was some sort of coercion involved.

I'm not surprised 'mudblood' slipped out - I think he saw Lily's actions as something akin to betrayal right then.

Snape's patronus is not a stag, it is a doe, so there's this feeling that they are not matched. Rather, Snape is taking something from Lily. He is losing his identity.
JKR said it was normal to have a patronus that resembles the person you love, because your happiness depends on that person.

The tragedy for Snape was that he lost the one person who made him happy. :(

But if rumors about Snape and Evans are spread in Hogwarts, this means something else. When James said 'the fact he exists', he is alluding to something which others find funny. Obviously, he talks about Evans-Snape rumors. And when he continues with 'go out with me', he dares her to disprove the rumors this way.
This is so interesting. I hadn't thought of it: "the fact that he exists... in your life." But there seems to be more to it.

JKR said it was normal to have a patronus that resembles the person you love, because your happiness depends on that person.

The tragedy for Snape was that he lost the one person who made him happy. :( I wonder if Lily's patronus became a doe in response to James, or if James's stag (the animagus) was a response to having feelings for Lily (even before they started dating). Or were their patronuses the same as always, and simply matched. If all of their patronuses changed in response to love, I wonder about the gender aspect. When Tonks produced a (were?)wolf patronus, was it a female or a male wolf? Does the fact that Snape did not produce a stag patronus mean, symbolically, that he couldn't bring himself to become a male counterpart, that is, to become someone like Lily, someone good, and mature, but only wanted to have her, without his changing into a person who could be her match? Then again, I can't imagine him duplicating James's patronus, so he probably had no choice... And after Lily's death, having a stag patronus would be lonely and horrible, even without the James symbolism. It would have to turn into a doe.

Yes, he used Levicorpus to humiliate Snape in the worst way possible, used an Impediment Jinx so harshly it knocked Snape several feet in the air, used Scourgify so forcefully it made him gag and choke. Snape retaliated by giving James a cut on the cheek -- the equivalent of throwing a punch. The "darkness" or "lightness" of the spells used is completely irrelevant, IMO... rather like arguing that a serial killer really isn't so bad if he only uses "harmless" objects, like croquet mallets, to bludgeon people. It is the way the spells are used that matters.

LOL! Excellent points, snapecrepe! You sound like a very intelligent and insightful young lady.;)

I do tire of the "Well, Snape used Sectumsempra, ZOMG!!" argument as well, mainly because we saw what a fully-unleased Sectumsempra can do to a person when Harry used it on Draco, and that is NOT what Severus did to James. (And I still don't understand why it's okay for Harry to use Crucio on someone for spitting on McG, but...meh. That's for another thread.)

That said, we have to take it as the unseen canon that James was able to change for Lily and Severus was not. Me, I'm still trying to process what, exactly, Snape heard in "Your friends are *** EVIL!!!, Sev!!!" that sounded to him like "Oh! if only you were a Death Eater, Severus, how happy we could be." :hmm:

(And I still don't understand why it's okay for Harry to use Crucio on someone for spitting on McG, but...meh. That's for another thread.)
Ugh, spit is gross, I would have crucio'd them too.

But yes...topic. Me, I'm still trying to process what, exactly, Snape heard in "Your friends are *** EVIL!!!, Sev!!!" that sounded to him like "Oh! if only you were a Death Eater, Severus, how happy we could be." Snape was really quite stupid in his handling of keeping Lily as a friend and it's quite sad. I have no idea how he fathomed that joining an organization bent on killing Lily would impress her. He was REALLY worried about losing her attention to James I guess.

LOL! Excellent points, snapecrepe! You sound like a very intelligent and insightful young lady.;)

I do tire of the "Well, Snape used Sectumsempra, ZOMG!!" argument as well, mainly because we saw what a fully-unleased Sectumsempra can do to a person when Harry used it on Draco, and that is NOT what Severus did to James. (And I still don't understand why it's okay for Harry to use Crucio on someone for spitting on McG, but...meh. That's for another thread.)

That said, we have to take it as the unseen canon that James was able to change for Lily and Severus was not. Me, I'm still trying to process what, exactly, Snape heard in "Your friends are *** EVIL!!!, Sev!!!" that sounded to him like "Oh! if only you were a Death Eater, Severus, how happy we could be." :hmm: Does jk actually say snape used sectumsempra in swm??? Surely there are a lot more curses that can cause a cut as minor as the one james got.

it all fits, especially why DD wouldnt reveal his reason for trusting snape, it would be kind of awkward for Snape and the rest of the Order lol

i wish snape would have lived; kill umbridge instead!

Snape was really quite stupid in his handling of keeping Lily as a friend and it's quite sad. I have no idea how he fathomed that joining an organization bent on killing Lily would impress her. He was REALLY worried about losing her attention to James I guess.

Well, I think it's probably safe to assume that he didn't quite realize the extent of the DE Mission Statement, any more than, say, Regulus did. I suspect Voldemort presented his "official" agenda to future recruits (and the wizarding world at large) in much the same manner as Grindelwald presented his to Dumbledore - i.e., all that "for the greater good" nonsense. And the rumors of his darker activities would be viewed by many as just that - rumors, vicious lies and propaganda spread by "Muggle-lovers" like Dumbledore. (Nazi Germany, anyone?)

But regardless of what he thought being a DE would actually entail, Severus knew Lily didn't want him to become one. "You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you? You don't even deny it!" is a rather anvil-sized clue, IMO, even for an exceptionally emotionally-dysfunctional teenage boy.

It's really no wonder Professor Snape couldn't stand the adolescent "dunderheads" he had to teach - we hate most that which we are. :p

I think that Snape was just to blinded by his power-hunger to realize that the path he had choosen would hurt Lily. I'm sure that had he realized what he would become and what it would do to her then he would never have do it. I think that Snape's story was by far, a hundred fold, the saddest one of all in HP. He brought about his own demise and had to live with that knowledge. He was greedy, he found himself trapped between two loves, Lily and power, he chose the one he thought would bring him the most joy and that would make Lily admire him ended up losing both her and his freedom. He watched her die because of his own mistakes, he tried to remedy the mistakes far too late and ended up caught in the midst of a war of which he was the sole witness to both sides. He lived his life under the shadow of the knowledge of what he had done and what he had to do. He watched Harry, the son of his one true love and his greatest enemy, he was tormented daily by Harry's eyes that shown like Lily's through the forever taunting face of James. He was forced to protect Harry, to watch him grow and make Lily proud, something he had never been able to do. And then he split his soul to save Harry's and committed himself to the task of leading Harry safely to his death. He watched everyone he had once been friends (if you could even call them friends) turn upon him. He saw the faces of all his fellow teachers looking at him with hatred and loathing and he alone knew that his sacrifice and misery would be the one thing that saved their lives, and then he died in agony, still believed to be a betrayer when he was in fact, a hero. What a horrible, horrible life. I have always liked Snape for some reason, even while hating him with a passion, but somehow I always felt bad for him and I could always see the torture that he inflicted upon himself even while inflicting tortures upon Harry. I think that Snape was definately, as Harry told his youngest son, the bravest man that Harry ever encountered on his journey.

It's really no wonder Professor Snape couldn't stand the adolescent "dunderheads" he had to teach - we hate most that which we are.
I think that's a good point. Snape would look out over his class year after year and see younger versions of himself, Lily, and the Marauders. It's painful to think about, just as it's painful for all of us to look back at our younger selves.

But one particular moment stands out in that respect - Occlumency lessons when Snape tells Harry that his sad and fearful memories are "handing him weapons." As we see with Ron's vision in the horcrux, Voldemort knows how to use someone's jealousy and insecurity as a weapon of torment. There was a good reason for Snape to tell Harry not to wear his heart on his sleeve.

it all fits, especially why DD wouldnt reveal his reason for trusting snape, it would be kind of awkward for Snape and the rest of the Order lol

i wish snape would have lived; kill umbridge instead!


No, Snape's life had been miserable -- a hint of what Dumbledore was getting at when he spoke about things worse than death -- and death would in the end have been relief for him.

Nevertheless... BOO HOO HOO :sad:

you know, I was just thinking (I know, a scary thought)....I wonder if Snape really wanted to teach DADA or if that was part of the plan? He was VERY good at Potions; brilliant at it really. I mean, I just wonder if he really wanted it of if the idea of him wanting it would work for DDs plan?
Any thoughts?

Yah, that's a brilliant idea! THe only reason I can see why he actually would have wanted to teach defense against the dark arts would be because of his love for the dark arts but since we know he was really good, that doesn't make sense anymore so your idea would really be the only answer. Good spot!

thanks, but I am really wondering about this. DD knew the job was cursed and he didn't want to lose Snape. I wonder if DD told Snape about the curse? Could that, too, have played into the idea that Snape "desired" the job?

I love this thread. But the thread moves at such a fast rate that I'm having a hard time catching up but had anyone mentioned that why Snape did not want to kill Wormtail when he had the chance (many in fact, since Wormtail was living with him).

He was so ready to let Sirius had a fate worse than death (by sending him to the Dementors) but he allowed himself to stay with someone who actually is the ultimate cause for Lily's death because he revealed their location. I'm sure he is clever enough to kill Wormtail by making it looked like an accident. Voldermort will not suspect a thing and since Voldermort treated Wormtail like vermin, I'm sure he will not care whether he lives or dies.

If he can loved Lily so deeply, I'm pretty sure he would want to be the one to avenge her.

Once again, we come to the spy mode. Snape, clever as he was, would not have been stupid enough to kill the rat. LV would have, I think, suspected something. He played his part well, to the bitter end.

I love this thread. But the thread moves at such a fast rate that I'm having a hard time catching up but had anyone mentioned that why Snape did not want to kill Wormtail when he had the chance (many in fact, since Wormtail was living with him).


Yes, it's a good point, but he could get some revenge knowing that Wormtail's life is actually worse than death.

It is one thing to kill a traitor like Black supposed to be, strong and powerful, best man and godfather. And it's quite another with a vermin like Wormtail, a weak coward.

Besides, Dumbledor could tell him to keep Wormtail alive, remembering his lifedebt to Harry. Not to mention Snape's duty as spy could be compromised nonetheless.

thanks, but I am really wondering about this. DD knew the job was cursed and he didn't want to lose Snape. I wonder if DD told Snape about the curse? Could that, too, have played into the idea that Snape "desired" the job?
All the teachers knew the job was cursed. In Book 2, Hagrid says that Lockhart was the "On'y one who wanted the job, the on'y one." :) That's foreshadowing for the fact that Snape never wanted the job in the first place. I think he applied year after year to leave a paper trail for someone like Umbridge to follow, but he never intended to take the job.

If Snape's "mission" from Voldemort was to stay at Hogwarts and spy on Dumbledore, then he couldn't take the Dark Arts job. Voldemort would realize that since he's the one who put the curse on the job.

However in Book 6, Dumbledore needs Slughorn's memory, so he needs to have a job for him. Slughorn's specialty is Potions, and Dumbledore only has a year to live due to his withered hand, so Snape got the DADA job.

The title of the Chapter called "Snape Victorious" is really rather ironic now. The "victory" of taking a cursed job and knowing that Dumbledore was going to die wasn't much of a happy occasion for him. :(

However, I do think Snape was a Defense Against the Dark Arts expert. :tu:

they were so cute together if she had taken a more liking to him ..i wish there were just a few more scenes of them together.

silverinkpot, I knew if someone would be able to put my question into context, it would be YOU! Thanks, that's kind of what I thought, too.
Plus, I never thought about needing Slughorn; that was a point I had missed.
and yes, Snape would be rather an expert in the Dark Arts. And, how to defend against them, since he had been, in essence, doing so for 16+ years.

Well, I think it's probably safe to assume that he didn't quite realize the extent of the DE Mission Statement, any more than, say, Regulus did. I suspect Voldemort presented his "official" agenda to future recruits (and the wizarding world at large) in much the same manner as Grindelwald presented his to Dumbledore - i.e., all that "for the greater good" nonsense.

I don't think so. From what we see, it's quite clear that Snape had a good idea of what he was setting himself up for. Besides, from Dumbledore's words, it is quite clear that Snape didn't get cold feet like Regulus did. Jo also tells us that Snape would have remained on Voldemort's side if it had not been for Lily being targeted. Thus, I don't see anything at all to 'safely assume' that he didn't realize what he was doing.

The official agenda of 'For the Greater Good' was coined by Dumbledore, not Grindelvald. Grindelvald adopted it because it made his campaign look more appealing. Voldemort on the other hand felt no need for that.

But regardless of what he thought being a DE would actually entail, Severus knew Lily didn't want him to become one. "You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you? You don't even deny it!" is a rather anvil-sized clue, IMO, even for an exceptionally emotionally-dysfunctional teenage boy.

Jo told us that Snape's idea of impressing Lily was to become a powerful DE. Thus, I don't think that he ever really knew or cared for what Lily wanted. I think that he was hoping that Lily would come around once she saw how powerful Snape had become.

Does jk actually say snape used sectumsempra in swm??? Surely there are a lot more curses that can cause a cut as minor as the one james got.

Lupin does say that 'Sectumsempra' was always a speciality of Snape's. Thus, we have no reason to assume that it was another curse that he used.

This is so interesting. I hadn't thought of it: "the fact that he exists... in your life." But there seems to be more to it.

I wonder if Lily's patronus became a doe in response to James, or if James's stag (the animagus) was a response to having feelings for Lily (even before they started dating). Or were their patronuses the same as always, and simply matched. If all of their patronuses changed in response to love, I wonder about the gender aspect. When Tonks produced a (were?)wolf patronus, was it a female or a male wolf? Does the fact that Snape did not produce a stag patronus mean, symbolically, that he couldn't bring himself to become a male counterpart, that is, to become someone like Lily, someone good, and mature, but only wanted to have her, without his changing into a person who could be her match? Then again, I can't imagine him duplicating James's patronus, so he probably had no choice... And after Lily's death, having a stag patronus would be lonely and horrible, even without the James symbolism. It would have to turn into a doe.

I don't think that Snape's change of patronus was a conscious one. Harry had no idea that his father was a stag animagus when he first conjured his patronus. Thus, I think that Snape's patronus changed to the doe because he felt for Lily.

From the memory of Lily asking Snape to drop Mulciber and Avery, we find out that Snape's apparent 'main' reason for following the Marauders around was a hope to convince Lily that they were not what they appeared to be. He says "I'm just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are."

I agree to some extent. I think that he was hoping that the fact that James chose to associate with a werewolf would convince Lily that James was not as wonderful as everyone thought to be. Somehow, I don't think that Lily would have cared that much, as is evident from her lack of reaction to Snape's theory.

Note that Lily KNOWS James saved Sev's life within days ('the other night'), while Sev is sworn to secrecy over Remus' condition. All youngSev can see during SWM is that Lily is 'falling' for James, they are flirting - James, who Sev believes was 'in on' trying to kill him just recently - who 'played' the hero to save his own skin and then managed to let Lily 'know' just how 'heroic' he was (and how 'ungrateful' Snape therefore was) - and here he is flirting with Lily (and she's flirting back) - all the while insulting his looks (not one word about the 'dark arts') and telling her it's because Sev has the nerve to exist at all.

And I have no idea why he didn't blurt out that Remus was a werewolf right then, but whatever reason it was, the Marauders seemed quite confident that he wouldn't. So, I'm guessing there was some sort of coercion involved.

Didn't Dumbledore have Snape promise to not reveal that Remus was a werewolf? Still, Remus seemed worried that Snape might 'let it slip', because he hushes the others when he sees that Snape is following them after the OWLs.

I'm not surprised 'mudblood' slipped out - I think he saw Lily's actions as something akin to betrayal right then.

Me neither. After all, it wasn't like he'd never thought of Lily as a 'mudblood' at all. He was just willing to overlook that 'flaw' because he liked her.

snape should have tried to kiss lily then james could stun him!! that would be a great scene the angst!!!

After all, it wasn't like he'd never thought of Lily as a 'mudblood' at all. He was just willing to overlook that 'flaw' because he liked her.

I think that because he was in love with her, and she was his first real friend, he never thought of her as Lily Evans the mudblood, just "Lily". I think that maybe he was in denial over Lilys blood status ("love is blind").

Before there is an uproar in regards to this statement, as many fans believe that James was in no way a 'bad choice' or that Snape was a 'better choice' let's reiterate that the James/Snape dynamic isn't really the topic of this thread.

Again, AS THIS IS STILL A HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL AND SENSITIVE TOPIC WE WOULD LIKE TO ASK EVERYONE TO PLEASE BE SENSITIVE TO OTHERS OPINIONS.

The sole topic of discussion, per the first post of this thread, is the Snape/Lily relationship as it was revealed in Deathly Hallows.

In that case, is there, or will there be, a discussion in which we can raise questions like that? I join with the previous poster in saying that we see no reasons why James was really a 'good choice', and I'd like to be able to express those opinions and debate with other people why he might not have been. But other forums that might deal with such a situation are closed to Deathly Hallows information, as far as I am aware. I think it's a little hard to discuss Snape/Lily without referring to any of the other books, and now a little hard to discuss it without referring to Deathly Hallows.

that chapter was really sweet. i really liked it [=
it explains why snapes eyes always lingering on harrys a fraction longer than anyone elses in every single book
i had no idea that he actually cared for harry, wow i guess im bad at picking up the subtle hints throughout the book

imagine if lily n snape got married, not lily n james *sigh*

All the teachers knew the job was cursed. In Book 2, Hagrid says that Lockhart was the "On'y one who wanted the job, the on'y one." :) That's foreshadowing for the fact that Snape never wanted the job in the first place. I think he applied year after year to leave a paper trail for someone like Umbridge to follow, but he never intended to take the job.

If Snape's "mission" from Voldemort was to stay at Hogwarts and spy on Dumbledore, then he couldn't take the Dark Arts job. Voldemort would realize that since he's the one who put the curse on the job.

However in Book 6, Dumbledore needs Slughorn's memory, so he needs to have a job for him. Slughorn's specialty is Potions, and Dumbledore only has a year to live due to his withered hand, so Snape got the DADA job.

The title of the Chapter called "Snape Victorious" is really rather ironic now. The "victory" of taking a cursed job and knowing that Dumbledore was going to die wasn't much of a happy occasion for him. :(

However, I do think Snape was a Defense Against the Dark Arts expert. :tu:

I totally agree. There was in fact no reason for Snape to become the DADA teacher.
I think it was a gossip Dumbledore and Snape didn't deny because it was helpful. In fact, Snape used it for hiding his spying position.
First, he confirmed to Umbridge that he applied for the job unsuccessfully. It was during the first year Voldemort returned.
Then, he told Bellatrix in HBP that Dumbledore feared to give him this job, that he wanted so much... It was like saying "Look, I can prove I still love the dark arts because I wanted to be DADA teacher".
It was useful to help the DEs thinking he was still a member of the club.

It should be remembered tho' that even Bella knew that it was 'Defense Against the Dark Arts' that was Snape's favorite subject.

I would dearly like to know what it was that Mulciber did that Lily thought was 'evil'. Snape said it was for a laugh and we know that Harry and Ron thought many of the spells in his potions book were just like something the twins would do for 'fun'. Similar senses of humour?

Was Mulciber really doing something 'evil' like an Imperio (and if so why wasn't he expelled?) or was it one of Snape's spells? I wonder if the reason he invented some of them wasn't to have something to offer Mulciber and Avery - something to get their friendship.

All the teachers knew the job was cursed. In Book 2, Hagrid says that Lockhart was the "On'y one who wanted the job, the on'y one." :) That's foreshadowing for the fact that Snape never wanted the job in the first place. I think he applied year after year to leave a paper trail for someone like Umbridge to follow, but he never intended to take the job.

If Snape's "mission" from Voldemort was to stay at Hogwarts and spy on Dumbledore, then he couldn't take the Dark Arts job. Voldemort would realize that since he's the one who put the curse on the job.

However in Book 6, Dumbledore needs Slughorn's memory, so he needs to have a job for him. Slughorn's specialty is Potions, and Dumbledore only has a year to live due to his withered hand, so Snape got the DADA job.

The title of the Chapter called "Snape Victorious" is really rather ironic now. The "victory" of taking a cursed job and knowing that Dumbledore was going to die wasn't much of a happy occasion for him. :(

However, I do think Snape was a Defense Against the Dark Arts expert. :tu:

That is a very interesting point. I hadn't noticed it before you mentioned it. I think the irony of the chapter title 'Snape Victorious' mirrors the fact that Snape probably didn't want the job at all. He knew the job was cursed and he also knew that Dumbledore was going to die within the year.
However he took the job mainly I think to emphasise to the DEs that he always wanted it, as a way of showing 'see I told you!' If he didn't take the job then the DEs and Voldemort would definitely have suspected something I think.

As somebody already mentioned, he played his part well until the very bitter end. :(

In that case, is there, or will there be, a discussion in which we can raise questions like that? I join with the previous poster in saying that we see no reasons why James was really a 'good choice', and I'd like to be able to express those opinions and debate with other people why he might not have been. But other forums that might deal with such a situation are closed to Deathly Hallows information, as far as I am aware. I think it's a little hard to discuss Snape/Lily without referring to any of the other books, and now a little hard to discuss it without referring to Deathly Hallows.

I agree completely, which is why I kind of stopped coming into this thread as much, even though S/L was my fave thing from the book and I want to discuss everything about it. As you say, hw can we discuss their relationship without talking about why their relationship broke down- one reason for which is obviously James. I also agree that the canon we have for good reasons as to why Lily chose James as the love of her life is insufficient.
When will the ban on excess Snape threads be lifted? Thanks...:)

that chapter was really sweet. i really liked it [=
it explains why snapes eyes always lingering on harrys a fraction longer than anyone elses in every single book
i had no idea that he actually cared for harry, wow i guess im bad at picking up the subtle hints throughout the book

imagine if lily n snape got married, not lily n james *sigh*

I always thought that he looked at Harry more just to loathe him more. Guess I was totally wrong on that one. :lol: But I think that's what you were supposed to think, then the revelation of Snape's love is a better surprise.

Was Mulciber really doing something 'evil' like an Imperio (and if so why wasn't he expelled?) or was it one of Snape's spells? I wonder if the reason he invented some of them wasn't to have something to offer Mulciber and Avery - something to get their friendship.

That's a good point. Obviously there is no way of knowing what spell it was that Mulciber actually used, but I believe it was one of Snape's spells, perhaps from the same Advanced Potion Making book that Harry used. I think at first his dark sense of humour meant that whatever spell Mulciber used it was invented just to be 'a laugh'. Maybe he even wanted to go as far as impressing Lily by his advanced uses of such dark magic but when he discovered that she did not share his same sense of humour he regretted it. It does make me wonder.

However if Snape did invent those spells and approved of their usage by Mulciber and Avery then in a way it makes him no different than the Marauders in the way that they were mischevious. This could mean that in Lily's eyes she saw James and Sirius as better than Snape, because at least they did not get themselves involved in dark magic. It even suggests that in the chapter titled 'The Prince's Tale' -


'That was nothing,' said Snape. 'It was a laugh, that's all-'
'It was Dark Magic, and you think that's funny-'
'What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?' demanded Snape. His colour rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed, to hold in his resentment.
'What's Potter got to do with anything?' said Lily.
'They sneak out at night. There's something weird about that Lupin. Where does he keep going?'
'He's ill,' said Lily. 'They say he's ill-'
'Every month at the full moon?' said Snape.
'I know your theory,' said Lily, and she sounded cold. 'Why are you so obsessed with them, anyway? Why do you care what they're doing at night?'
'I'm just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.'
The intensity of his gaze made her blush.
'They don't use Dark Magic, though.'

To me this seems like Snape was trying to downsize was Mulciber did, make it seem like it wasn't that big a deal and Lily should not get herself so worked up about it. As soon as Lily mentioned that it was Dark Magic, Snape quickly changed the subject to James and his friends, evidently trying to convince Lily that what they were doing at night was much more sinister than what Snape and his friends were doing. However Lily seems adamant that what Potter and his friends got up to was nothing compared to the Dark Magic that Snape and his friends used. So obviously Snape was defeated in trying to convince her that he was better than they are.

What's hard to swallow I think (for Snape) in this conversation is that by this time he is fully aware that Remus is a werewolf and Sirius had sent him to Remus. In other words, that Sirius at least used a 'dark creature' in his 'prank' just the other night - yet he cannot tell Lily this. We also have back in PoA, Snape's opinion that the Marauders Map was a 'dark object'.

It has to be considered that he does not agree with Lily here that the Marauders do not use 'dark magic' - especially if he suspects that they actually spend time with Remus while he is a werewolf (without realizing they are turning into animals)

I would dearly like to know what it was that Mulciber did that Lily thought was 'evil'. Snape said it was for a laugh and we know that Harry and Ron thought many of the spells in his potions book were just like something the twins would do for 'fun'. Similar senses of humour?

I think that we can be sure that it wasn't Levicorpus. Lily seemed to find it just a bit funny when it was used on Snape. What we need to note is that Snape's book contained both harmful and relatively harmless spells. Thus, I don't think that Snape's sense of humor was really comparable to the twins'.

On the other hand, Lily might have been appalled at the way the spell was used, rather than the spell itself. Even if it was Levicorpus or the toenail growing curse, it takes on a whole new meaning if it is used by a racist pureblood against a muggleborn victim, doesn't it?

As we saw, Snape was welcomed into Slytherin by Malfoy and possibly, his gang. It's likely that Snape did create some of the spells for his DE friends. In that case, Snape knew perfectly well what those spells were going to be used for.

I join with the previous poster in saying that we see no reasons why James was really a 'good choice', and I'd like to be able to express those opinions and debate with other people why he might not have been.

We've had those kinds of threads before, and they all resolved into heated fights as opposed to mature debates, before getting closed. I agree with the mods on this one, actually.

I've seen several posters commenting on why there was insufficient canon to show that James was a good choice, and I must say that I was surprised by them. We have canon that says that James changed a lot during his later years. What we saw in SWM was a phase, when they were at their worst. On the other hand, we see from the Snape/Lily interactions that their relationship had been worsening for a while, and that Lily had always disapproved of the compant Snape kept, his stand on the blood-status issue, and the Dark Arts. Snape simply chose to ignore those things, and Lily continued to make excuses for his behaviour to her friends, whenever the issue came up.

Snape and Lily's parting of ways after SWM was nothing sudden. The memories showed the gradual deterioration of their relationship, and Snape insulting her publicly was simply the straw that broke the camel's back. Lily had had enough.

On the other hand, it is shown in canon that James deflated his head quite a bit, realized the error of his ways, and made an effort to improve himself. I think that the reasoning that James was a 'bad choice' stems from the assumption that Lily only had James and Snape to pick from. Lily was quite popular, and she was quite a catch, from what Jo says. Thus, there is really no reason for why Lily would have to pick one of them. James was chosen because because Lily found him worthy, not because he was the lesser of two evils.

The fact that Lily chose someone she repeatedly described as a 'toerag', someone she had got off on the wrong foot with, over someone who she'd once considered her best friend, shows us how Snape and James changed over the years. Snape changed for the worse, and James changed for the better.

What's hard to swallow I think (for Snape) in this conversation is that by this time he is fully aware that Remus is a werewolf and Sirius had sent him to Remus. In other words, that Sirius at least used a 'dark creature' in his 'prank' just the other night - yet he cannot tell Lily this. We also have back in PoA, Snape's opinion that the Marauders Map was a 'dark object'.

What truly amuses me about that conversation is the fact that Snape seems convinced that making Lily see that James associates with a 'dark creature', and considers him a friend, would turn Lily against James. Lily's reaction shows us that she couldn't care less what Remus was. Snape tries and fails to convince Lily that actually using dark magic on a person is comparable to befriending a werewolf and sneaking out at night! I find that hypocritical to the extreme.

It has to be considered that he does not agree with Lily here that the Marauders do not use 'dark magic' - especially if he suspects that they actually spend time with Remus while he is a werewolf (without realizing they are turning into animals)

Snape doesn't agree, true. However, it is interesting that what he uses to counter Lily's accusations about Mulciber is that the Marauders sneak out at night, and that Lupin might be a werewolf. Nothing about them using dark spells too, or bullying others. In his own words, he wants to show her that they're not as wonderful as everyone thinks they are, not that they use Dark magic too. It shows us that Snape doesn't really have an excuse for his friends' behaviour, and is simply trying to change the topic. I also got the impression that he had noticed that Lily was showing some interect in James.

To me this seems like Snape was trying to downsize was Mulciber did, make it seem like it wasn't that big a deal and Lily should not get herself so worked up about it. As soon as Lily mentioned that it was Dark Magic, Snape quickly changed the subject to James and his friends, evidently trying to convince Lily that what they were doing at night was much more sinister than what Snape and his friends were doing. However Lily seems adamant that what Potter and his friends got up to was nothing compared to the Dark Magic that Snape and his friends used. So obviously Snape was defeated in trying to convince her that he was better than they are.

I agree completely. However, Snape didn't really care about being better than them, he just wanted Lily to think that. I think that it's highly relevant. As long as Lily thought that James was scum, he was happy.

A thought occurred to me that I feel I should share, although I fear it will not be a popular belief.

We have seen in the story, that no one, no one, was quite what they appeared to be on the surface, and even the most noble individual, still had individual flaws. Dumbledore loved power a bit more than was wise, Sirius and James turned out to have a cruel streak to them, even Harry turns out to be a bit rash, and he has a bad temper. My point is, what was Lily's flaw?

Isn't it possible, that part of the reason Snape failed to win Lily's love, was because he gave more than she did? That she never encouraged him to seek the good and reject the bad? It was Severus who approached Lily on the playground, Severus who cheered her up on the train, always Severus who sought her out to see how she was doing. When did Lily take the initiative, let Severus know that he mattered to her?

No, I am not saying Severus did not make his choices, and Severus was foolish and wrong. But Lily could have done more, done something, to show Severus why he should choose the light instead of the dark, and to let slights and insults fall to the ground rather than be fed with hatred and resentment. Lily has her part in this tragedy, and that must not be forgotten in this discussion.

We have seen in the story, that no one, no one, was quite what they appeared to be on the surface, and even the most noble individual, still had individual flaws. Dumbledore loved power a bit more than was wise, Sirius and James turned out to have a cruel streak to them, even Harry turns out to be a bit rash, and he has a bad temper. My point is, what was Lily's flaw?

That's a very good question. I think that Lily's flaw was that she chose to make excuses for a friend, rather than try and nip his dark tendencies in the bud. As she says, she had been making excuses for Snape for some time. IMO, she should have threatened to end their friendship if he didn't shape up, rather than wait until he turned on her.

But, I don't think that Lily can really be blamed , because we saw that she did try to convince Snape that his friends were creepy, and evil. We saw that Snape chose to ignore her repeated warnings, not even listening to her.

After Lily ended things with Snape, Snape still had a choice. He could have tried to make things better, be a better person. As it is, he was not willing to change himself, and chose to dwelve deeper into the Dark Side.

The issue about threads being closed due to heated discussions occurred prior to DH's release, or before we had confirmation that Snape did love Lily, doesn't make sense to me. I don't understand why a topic is banned simply because it caused heated discussion in the past. The "speculation" factor doesn't apply now - we know he loved her. If people can't be civil about a topic, then ban THEM not the topic.

IMO, she should have threatened to end their friendship if he didn't shape up, rather than wait until he turned on her.

All stick and no carrot? What did Lily ever offer Severus, to encourage him?

But, I don't think that Lily can really be blamed , because we saw that she did try to convince Snape that his friends were creepy, and evil. We saw that Snape chose to ignore her repeated warnings, not even listening to her.

Maybe because of the way she said it, in criticism and judgment, rather than offering a better option? I think I can blame Lily, not completely of course, but I do think we need to remember that the books always showed her as others saw her, and everyone, Severus included, put her on a pedestal.

It's hard to really see someone's face when you don't get to see eye-to-eye, you know?

HeY Guys I posted this on the general Deathly Hallows discussion board but it got Locked so I moved it here! (sorrY to the mods for that ... Im still a first Yr! :err:, Trying to learn as fast as I can though) AnywaY here it is... you're thoughts would be much appreciated!


James Potter's Character Undermined by Snape's Story?

I'm a pretty big Snape fan so this isn’t an attack on him at all, but I just felt that his story really undermined everything about James! JK Rowling’s said in an interview that if Snape hadn’t made friends with death eaters and hadn’t been so fond of the dark arts they (meaning him and Lily) would have most likely ended up together. And also the main reason many people believe James to be heroic was because he died to save his family and in the deathly hallows it’s revealed that Snapes’ entire life was dedicated to protecting Harry! And Snape also dies fighting (or in the process of fighting) for what’s right.

I don’t know it might just be me reading to much into it, but we were given such an in depth examination into Snape’s life, that we as readers had little choice but to sympathies with him however the only glimpse we were given of James’ life was the one of him behaving like an arrogant bully.

So my question is what are you’re thoughts on this? (and please remember I’m really not Anti-Snape at all :) )

HeY Guys I posted this on the general Deathly Hallows discussion board but it got Locked so I moved it here! (sorrY to the mods for that ... Im still a first Yr! :err:, Trying to learn as fast as I can though) AnywaY here it is... you're thoughts would be much appreciated!


James Potter's Character Undermined by Snape's Story?

I'm a pretty big Snape fan so this isn’t an attack on him at all, but I just felt that his story really undermined everything about James! JK Rowling’s said in an interview that if Snape hadn’t made friends with death eaters and hadn’t been so fond of the dark arts they (meaning him and Lily) would have most likely ended up together. And also the main reason many people believe James to be heroic was because he died to save his family and in the deathly hallows it’s revealed that Snapes’ entire life was dedicated to protecting Harry! And Snape also dies fighting (or in the process of fighting) for what’s right.

I don’t know it might just be me reading to much into it, but we were given such an in depth examination into Snape’s life, that we as readers had little choice but to sympathies with him however the only glimpse we were given of James’ life was the one of him behaving like an arrogant bully.

So my question is what are you’re thoughts on this? (and please remember I’m really not Anti-Snape at all :) )
I don't really agree, and I'd go into more depth, but this isn't really the right place. You might try a character analysis of James Potter. Look through the Legilimency threads.

Or maybe the Snape character thread, if you want to discuss Snape compared to James? Maybe eventually there will be a Snape/James comparison thread, or would that result in more arguing? Personally I like the threads with arguments (polite arguments I mean) they're more interesting than loads of people who all agree on something talking about it...

A
Isn't it possible, that part of the reason Snape failed to win Lily's love, was because he gave more than she did? That she never encouraged him to seek the good and reject the bad? It was Severus who approached Lily on the playground, Severus who cheered her up on the train, always Severus who sought her out to see how she was doing. When did Lily take the initiative, let Severus know that he mattered to her?


Maybe Lily should have done more. But she did stand up for him against James and Sirius when the whole school decided to sit back and do nothing. We see this happening in just one instance but I'm pretty sure it's happened a few times before as well. She looks down at Sirius on her very first day at Hogwarts for being mean to Snape. She's always stood up for Snape infront of her friends..
"None of my friends can understand why I'm friends with you. I can't make excuses any more."
That would count as contributing to the relationship, right?

On the other hand, it is shown in canon that James deflated his head quite a bit, realized the error of his ways, and made an effort to improve himself. I think that the reasoning that James was a 'bad choice' stems from the assumption that Lily only had James and Snape to pick from. Lily was quite popular, and she was quite a catch, from what Jo says. Thus, there is really no reason for why Lily would have to pick one of them. James was chosen because because Lily found him worthy, not because he was the lesser of two evils.

The fact that Lily chose someone she repeatedly described as a 'toerag', someone she had got off on the wrong foot with, over someone who she'd once considered her best friend, shows us how Snape and James changed over the years. Snape changed for the worse, and James changed for the better.
That's your opinion, and that is how people viewed it in the past because everyone thought James transformed himself after rescuing Snape from the werewolf.

But now we know that Lily didn't even understand the "Werewolf Prank" because she didn't know that Lupin was a werewolf and that Sirius sent Snape under the tree. So she had a lack of information about James, didn't she?

She considered James better because he didn't use the word "Mudblood" and Snape did, even though he apologized. A month ago, people were saying that Snape would never have been sorry for saying that, but that wasn't true. It was a huge regret for him, and it made him lose his best friend, which is obviously why that is SWM.

I agree that it is nearly impossible to talk about the new canon without speaking the name "James." Even the meaning of that name is important now, since we know it means "supplanter," or someone who takes the place of another - in this case, Severus.

That's your opinion, and that is how people viewed it in the past because everyone thought James transformed himself after rescuing Snape from the werewolf.

But now we know that Lily didn't even understand the "Werewolf Prank" because she didn't know that Lupin was a werewolf and that Sirius sent Snape under the tree. So she had a lack of information about James, didn't she?

She considered James better because he didn't use the word "Mudblood" and Snape did, even though he apologized. A month ago, people were saying that Snape would never have been sorry for saying that, but that wasn't true. It was a huge regret for him, and it made him lose his best friend, which is obviously why that is SWM.

I agree that it is nearly impossible to talk about the new canon without speaking the name "James." Even the meaning of that name is important now, since we know it means "supplanter," or someone who takes the place of another - in this case, Severus.

I agree completely. What I was trying to say was not that there is no canon, exactly, to support James, but that what we do have requires a pretty big leap of faith in order to reconcile Lily having James as the love of her life. I suppose in some ways it's a moot point because the fact is, she chose him, she loved him, etc. But we have more evidence about Snape and Lily and this makes me wonder why, exactly, she cut Snape off- was it just because of the Mudblood comment? Probably not, maybe that teamed with the Dark Arts stuff. But I would think Snape only got way more into that after Mudblood-gate. The JKR quote about how Lily could have loved him romantically fascinated me.

"None of my friends can understand why I'm friends with you. I can't make excuses any more."
That would count as contributing to the relationship, right?

Not to me. I mean, Lily uses that as a criticism of Severus, as in 'it costs
me to be seen with you', as in 'I'm embarrassed by you'. Where does Lily say, straight out, that she appreciates Severus' friendship, that it is something she does not want to lose?

Severus makes that clear by the things he does, like waiting in front of the door to the Gryffindor common room as long as it takes, and no I am not forgetting or excusing the reasons why he should apologize and should change his ways, but really, where does Lily ever take the step to show Severus matters to her? It really seems as though Lily, like many beautiful women, accepts Severus' devotion to her as her right, but she gives nothing back. Certainly, I never read anything where Lily stopped to think about what would motivate Severus to change. Not that Lily should have tolerated the Dark Arts or such, but she was indifferent to anything that wasn't what she wanted, and that, put simply, is wrong.

Mudblood-gate
:rotfl:

And thus, a new phrase is created in the Harry Potter world. :lol:

It really seems as though Lily, like many beautiful women, accepts Severus' devotion to her as her right, but she gives nothing back. Certainly, I never read anything where Lily stopped to think about what would motivate Severus to change. Not that Lily should have tolerated the Dark Arts or such, but she was indifferent to anything that wasn't what she wanted, and that, put simply, is wrong.

I really don't think we have enough evidence to claim this. We have three or four scenes of interaction out of a six-year friendship. I don't think that's enough to draw general conclusions from. If they were best friends, then there was effort on both sides. And Jo confirmed she did love him as a friend. She showed concern for him. I'm sure he knew she cared about him, they were bes friends for six years at the least! In any case, we've seen too little of that friendship to draw decisive conclusions, in my opinion.

I am thinking that Snape/Lily were friends for seven years. When Harry first sees Snape in Prince's Tale, he thinks he is about 9-10 years old. So that would give then seven years - the year before Hogwarts, and then six years at Hogwarts.

Daelin: I see your point that Lily is worried about what her friends think, but I don't think that means she was a bad friend. I think she was in conflict over having a Slytherin friend who was into the Dark Arts, and was feeling some peer pressure. That's quite realistic.

I have no problem with the fact that Lily chose James over Snape, since the canon is that most people marry someone from their own house. Snape and Lily were unusual friends, and Snape believed their love would be enough to overcome everything. But he also let peers talk him into doing things, which is how he became a Jr. Death Eater. So he and Lily each made choices that shut out the other.

:rotfl:

And thus, a new phrase is created in the Harry Potter world. :lol:

:) Yeah I thought it was fitting! It should probably be 'Mudbloodgate' though.

I really don't think we have enough evidence to claim this. We have three or four scenes of interaction out of a six-year friendship. I don't think that's enough to draw general conclusions from. If they were best friends, then there was effort on both sides. And Jo confirmed she did love him as a friend. She showed concern for him. I'm sure he knew she cared about him, they were bes friends for six years at the least! In any case, we've seen too little of that friendship to draw decisive conclusions, in my opinion.

Ah, but that's my point. We finally see clear evidence of how Severus felt about Lily, but given their importance to Severus, don't you think that if Lily had ever shown appreciation and clear affection for Severus, that he would have shown those memories also? That they are not there, is to me a pretty big indicator. It also fits with what we know - Lily may have come to love Severus later, but as things went she never actually did (this from JKR). We also know that James was not quite what Lily thought he was, as she thought he had chenged when or before they started dating, but in fact he just hid his attacks on Severus. The scene in 'SWM' is also troubling; why is Lily almost-smiling when James torments Severus? Couldn't it be just that the 'arrogant toe-rag' is handsome, athletic, and charming? I've seen good-looking jocks get away with criminal behavior towards women in my time, so I have to say this must be considered as a possibility.

The significance to the Severus-Lily relationship, is that one cannot help but wonder how the injustice of all that appeared to Severus. He knew Lily hated the Dark Arts, yet he plunged into them. Why? Because I think Severus saw Lily start to fall for James, had no idea how to win her love, and so jealousy and insecurity became too much for him to resist. And while that is the fault of Severus Snape, it is also the fault of Lily Evans, who saw him falling away and complained about it, but who chose not to reach out when he needed it most.

JK should write a book about this, something like: "Love between shadows" or

I agree with Yoana, we don't have enough information, all we can do is speculate.
I was in a similar situation years ago, except for the Death Eaters, you know. We were only friends, good friends. Another friend tell me that he felt something towards me and I began to see this person in a different way. It's cruel, selfish, egocentric, whatever...but...you know...when you realise that other person can see something good in you, that find you interesting... I don't know how to express it, I hope you understand me.
Perhaps, if Snape would have made a decision earlier, Lliy would have seen something in him.

I felt awful for Snape, his story was so sad, not only did he lost the woman she loved because of a minute of proud when she called her "mudblood" but he unadvertently and involuntarily sent her to her death, and then he had to suffer humiliations and hatred from everyone at school for following Dubmledore's wishes... it was heartbreaking to see all his memories and how he wanted to see Lily's eyes through Harry before dying :upset:
I also cried in the epilogue, learning how Harry named one of his sons...
JK created such wonderful characters, but I have to agree Snape's the most complex one by far.

I just want to say I was CRYING like a baby when I read The Prince´s Tale and I loved it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:love: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :love:

poor Snape... I cannot even feel sorry for him, because it gave me the feeling that he did not really care about anything much, since she died. He would not want me or Harry or anybody to tell him he is brave or that he is a good person.

Somehow it is a good thing he died, because he had no reason to live...there was no way he would love anybody else.

He lived like a robot, to fullfill the last of Dumbledore´s tasks and that was it.

Man this is SO SO SO SO SO SO SO FREAKIN sad. I am crying again. :upset:

I know he is fictional but I cannot help it. Man, I love Snape.

THANK YOU JO! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! THANKS A MILION!!!:love:

I agree with Yoana, we don't have enough information, all we can do is speculate.


I don't agree with this argument. Why? Because the few scenes between Lily and Snape that we were allowed to see were hand-picked by JKR to show us the most important things about their connection!

We, as avid fans, sometimes tend to treat the books like factual documents, instead of like the very deliberate artistic creations they are.

If the scenes between Lily and Snape were cut from a television news program, we could all say, "But we don't know the whole story! We can't judge based on these few facts!" And we would be right.

However, these scenes were deliberately revealed to us by the author of the book precisely in order to form our opinions of the situation. Yes, we can take these few scenes and draw conclusions, because that's why they were written into the books!

And, from what we've been given, I think that Lily was indeed on the receiving end of the adulation of Snape without returning the emotion in kind. I'm not sure she exactly reveled in it, however. His continued downhill slither toward the Dark Arts made her uncomfortable, I think.

There is a kindness in Lily that would have prevented her from rejecting Snape to his face, not wanting to heap more abuse on his already tortured soul, yet at the very same time her goodness would not permit her to ally herself romantically with someone that was leaning toward the Dark Arts.

A conundrum of grand proportions, brought to you by the Deathly Hallows, Inc. - a division of Nargles, Ltd.

Ah, but that's my point. We finally see clear evidence of how Severus felt about Lily, but given their importance to Severus, don't you think that if Lily had ever shown appreciation and clear affection for Severus, that he would have shown those memories also? That they are not there, is to me a pretty big indicator. It also fits with what we know - Lily may have come to love Severus later, but as things went she never actually did (this from JKR). We also know that James was not quite what Lily thought he was, as she thought he had chenged when or before they started dating, but in fact he just hid his attacks on Severus. The scene in 'SWM' is also troubling; why is Lily almost-smiling when James torments Severus? Couldn't it be just that the 'arrogant toe-rag' is handsome, athletic, and charming? I've seen good-looking jocks get away with criminal behavior towards women in my time, so I have to say this must be considered as a possibility.

The significance to the Severus-Lily relationship, is that one cannot help but wonder how the injustice of all that appeared to Severus. He knew Lily hated the Dark Arts, yet he plunged into them. Why? Because I think Severus saw Lily start to fall for James, had no idea how to win her love, and so jealousy and insecurity became too much for him to resist. And while that is the fault of Severus Snape, it is also the fault of Lily Evans, who saw him falling away and complained about it, but who chose not to reach out when he needed it most.

I know it is just speculation, but I totally agree with you.:)

The significance to the Severus-Lily relationship, is that one cannot help but wonder how the injustice of all that appeared to Severus. He knew Lily hated the Dark Arts, yet he plunged into them. Why? Because I think Severus saw Lily start to fall for James, had no idea how to win her love, and so jealousy and insecurity became too much for him to resist. And while that is the fault of Severus Snape, it is also the fault of Lily Evans, who saw him falling away and complained about it, but who chose not to reach out when he needed it most.

Why I agree that Snape did act the way he did in part due to him knowing that James liked Lily and Lily might have in turn liked James at the time I don't agree with the fact that Lily is at fault for Snape's choices.

She expressed that she was conserned about Snape when she pointed out his friends were a bad influence he changed the subject. He thought that it was all James's fault in a way for his and Lily's strained friendship. I also think that Lily really did try to point out his behavior the best she could but, if Snape did not realize that his BEST friend was a muggle-born and was what he was suposed to hate then the burden of his desision should be souly on him. JKR even said in a recent interview that if Lily had remained friends with him he still would have persued his descent into the dark arts. He was foolish in this and had he realized what impact his decisions would have on Lily in the future he probably would have changed his ways. And again I respect your opinion and you have some good points but you do also have to account for that Lily was sixteen and even an adult in her situation may not have know how to stage an appropriate intervention for Snape, but she did express her concerns which was all she could do at the time.

mshepnj, you are right about Snape not growing up, as far as we know, hearing about pure-blood and all that, however, despite the fact that he is half-blood, he hesitates when telling Lily it doesn't matter that she's muggleborn. This tells me he already has some skewed vision of the wizarding world. We also know, from previous books, that he already had a pretty good grounding in dark arts and jinxes, etc. So while his mom may not have been a big LV supporter, she was obviously teaching him so suspect things that he was using from almost day one.

I imagine that Eileen Prince was a complicated woman. :lol:

However, the fact is, she did marry a Muggle despite obviously being aware of blood prejudice. She may well have said something about how Muggle-born witches are perceived by some in the Wizarding world as different, but there isn't enough information to know her opinion about that. We get the impression that Severus knows there is a difference. Either he he told a lie (about the level of prejudice against Muggle-born) so she wouldn't worry, or HE doesn't see any difference, at least in her case, or both.

Severus loved Lily despite everything he obviously learned about the dark arts, or didn't learn being neglected as a child. He saw Lily as an individual, not a member of a particular group. She did the same for him. He didn't like some of her Gryffindor hangers-on, she loathed Avery and Mulciber. Both had good reason and tried to "warn" the other, and they remain friends despite everything else until that last awful moment where he lashes out and her worst fears are realized.

Closed pending version 2.