Snape and Lily - the Relationship Revealed!

Let me be the first member of the Admitting-I-Could-Be-Wrong Club to admit how VERY WRONG I was. I was open to the idea of Snape and Lily having been friends but I wasn't in love with the idea on love on his part or with a pre-Hogwarts friendship. But that said, JKR clearly was.

So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts? What do you think this friendship was based on? Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts? How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin? How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory? Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"? Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater? Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?


We've got a seperate thread on Snape himself here: Severus Snape: Character Analysis. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108022) This thread should confine itself solely to discussion of Snape/Lily and their relationship as it was revealed in Deathly Hallows.

AS THIS IS STILL A HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL AND SENSITIVE TOPIC WE WOULD LIKE TO ASK EVERYONE TO PLEASE BE SENSITIVE TO OTHERS OPINIONS. THIS MEANS NO GLOATING AS WELL AS NO BASHING. CONSEQUENCES WILL BE SEVERE.

Additionally please read How to have a pleasant conversation on any topic (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108019) and Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108021) BEFORE POSTING IN THIS THREAD

I was really surprised by the Snape/Lily relationship. I had kind of a vague idea that Dumbledore's reason for trusting Snape had something to do with Snape liking Lily, but I always thought that if that was the case, he'd have loved her from afar. Never dreamed they'd have been friends in childhood.

I actually was convinced that Snape loved Lily since I had read a theory on it, so it wasn't much of a surprise to me.

I had a slight idea that they were friends after "Snape's Worst Memory". I didn't think the humiliation by Sirius and James would have been bad enough to have made it his worst memory. Something else would have to have done it, and I thought that calling Lily and mudblood would be it.

I still don't get why "Snape's worst memory" was, in fact, his worst memory. Pre-DH, not knowing of his feelings for her, I assumed that, having lived through the first war, surely he'd seen something worse. Now, post-DH, I would think that his worst memory would be finding out that she had been killed. I was obviously wrong before and am still wrong. :shrug:

Delighted to be here discussing this enchanting, puzzling, thought-provoking book.

Oooh, hell, this is sad - but here is my question:

When Snape lay dying, with Harry beside him, he gave out his memory.

He said "Look at me". Was that -- look at my memories, look at my life, look at me, look at who I am, look at all of my life, how I have been Dumbledore's man, at his side, all this time.

Or was it "Look at me" so that I can see Lily's eyes once more before I die?

I had rather liked the idea that Lily stood up for Snape in SWM because, even if he was this creepy kid obsessed with the Dark Arts, he didn't deserve what James and Sirius were dishing out. It slightly diminishes her actions there, in my eyes, if she was best friends with Snape before; it implies that she might not have done that for someone in the same position whom she didn't know as well.

Or was it "Look at me" so that I can see Lily's eyes once more before I die?


That's what I think he meant.

While reading HBP I figured that Snape must have been in love with Lily, but I do have to admit that I didn't think that had anything to do with why Dumbledore had trusted Snape so well. I think what I was most surprised by was Snape's patronus! Also, while this is naturally very silly and certainly wrong, for a little bit the thought flickered in my mind... "What if Snape was really Harry's dad!" I know, that's so soap opera drama, but I'm not afraid to say I thought about it for a split second!

Ever since reading "Snape's Worst Memory" in OOTP I've been theorizing that Snape loved Lily, that they were friends up until that point of his "worst memory", Snape's love for Lily was the reason Dumbledore trust Snape (and that Snape was on the good side and it was a plan to kill Dumbledore...) and the significance behind Harry having Lily's eyes.

It's the one theory I had that I felt more strongly about then any other, so when it became actually canon, I was excited but nothing could have compared me for seeing it all unfold....

Actually seeing Snapes memories and seeing Snape crying for Lily. Seeing his patronus and realizing that he died looking into the eyes of the woman he loved.... :(

I thought it was really sweet how they were friends before they even started at Hogwarts. I thought it was so sad their seperation and subsequent deaths. I'm also left wondering if somehow Snape had ended up in Gryffindor and had avoided the Death Eaters, would those two have ended up together?

I was so happy to hear about this relationship. I loved the way he watched her from afar and then had to pluck up the courage to talk to her. I love that they were friends before Hogwarts and remained friends after. I felt terrible for him though, because he always seemed to mess everything up.

The final argument they have was so sad. When she asks him why she is so different, I wanted him to tell her his feelings right then. It felt like if he had... things may have gone differently for him. It was heartbreaking. Then he went on and carried those feelings until his death requesting with his last breath to see Lily's eyes once more. This made me cry it was so sad...

Finally, we know his motivation for risking his life all this time, and it was love. Everything he did he did in out of love for Lily. The fact that the love was unrequited makes it all the more poignant. In spite of that, he still protects her son right to the end when he gives him the memories he needs to go on.

I now understand every snide remark he ever made. He was upset with the James in him... I am still upset about all that though. I feel that if Lily knew how Snape went on to treat Harry she would not be pleased. Although, I do know why he was like that.

I also love the part where he realizes that Dumbledore was planning on Harry's death. I thought that Snape's defense and anger were great. All this time he had protected Lily's son only to keep him alive long enough to watch him die. It revealed how deeply he could feel.

I thought that the relationship was handled beautifully in this book. JKR did an amazing job writing the scenes and I love the way she made Harry discover it all. Through all Snape's memories... it was brilliant.

I still don't get why "Snape's worst memory" was, in fact, his worst memory. Pre-DH, not knowing of his feelings for her, I assumed that, having lived through the first war, surely he'd seen something worse. Now, post-DH, I would think that his worst memory would be finding out that she had been killed. I was obviously wrong before and am still wrong. :shrug:

I think it is his worst memory because that is truly when Snape lost her. They considered each other best friends up until that point, which was Lily's last straw of tolerance. That's when Snape really lost her, and in matters of love, it was kind of a death. I don't think she ever really forgave him, he had to live with that, and live with the fact that she would never come back for him after that. Regardless of the people he was getting in with, I'm sure he held out hope up to that point that he would someday have a chance with Lily.

I thought Snape must have loved Lilly. It was interesting to see the reasons why Snape turned on Lord Voldemort. Snape was a flawed Hero in some respects.
If Snape had the courage to tell Lilly he loved her, then she might have forgiven Snape for his mudblood outburst. Thus he set on the path that ultimately lead to Snape's death and Harry's march to victory, which was all part of Dumbledore's plan.

I thought the chapter of Snape's memories was on of the best in the whole series. SO heart-breaking. To understand why Snape hated Harry so much, because he was the son that could have been his, and because he was so guilty that he accidently sent Lily to her grave. I actually cried it was so sad.

I still don't get why "Snape's worst memory" was, in fact, his worst memory. Pre-DH, not knowing of his feelings for her, I assumed that, having lived through the first war, surely he'd seen something worse. Now, post-DH, I would think that his worst memory would be finding out that she had been killed. I was obviously wrong before and am still wrong. :shrug:


I think it was his worst memory because this caused the rift between him and Lily that separated them forever. It was when he called her a mudblood that everything ended.

Yes, I agree that death was worse, but never being able to talk to the woman you love and no longer being her friend was devastating to him.

I think it is his worst memory because that is truly when Snape lost her.

Exactly. It wasn't his worst memory because he was being bullied (because that's happened to him before...) but it was his worst memory because that was the day he truly lost Lily...

I now understand every snide remark he ever made. He was upset with the James in him... I am still upset about all that though. I feel that if Lily knew how Snape went on to treat Harry she would not be pleased. Although, I do know why he was like that.


But, that is why he hated James and Harry. James "won" Lily's heart. But I also think, it pained Snape to even look at Harry. Harry is the reason that Lily died. Snape is reminded every time he looks at Harry that the only woman he loved, loved someone else, and died loving and protecting their child. The pain it must have been to just even have Harry in the same room as him. It was torture to him.

But, that is why he hated James and Harry. James "won" Lily's heart. But I also think, it pained Snape to even look at Harry. Harry is the reason that Lily died. Snape is reminded every time he looks at Harry that the only woman he loved, loved someone else, and died loving and protecting their child. The pain it must have been to just even have Harry in the same room as him. It was torture to him.


I agree, it was James' son, a man he most assuredly despised. I agree too that it would have been painful for him to look at him and to teach and even protect him. Aside from all of that, I am still of the mind that Lily would not have been pleased by this treatment.

I understand it all, of course, he loved her so much that anything that contributed to or reminded him of the death would have hurt Snape horribly. But I do think that it was harsh and something that Lily would have argued about with him.

I was actually speculating a relationship, ones one sided as well, between Lily and Severus since OOTP. I guess the idea always appealed to me because of Snape's outwardly reserved nature. Lol I'm a little shocked at how much he loved her, but the entire chapter of Prince's Tales made me weepy.

I think they were friends, well because they had chemistry? I'm not really sure why, I think Snape was and is like Lily in a way, but I'm guessing only with her. I do think the two different houses were in awe of a inter house relationship like that from those two specific houses. I wonder why no one ever told Harry that his mother and Severus Snape were friends. I do think they would of been different if they were in the same houses, and like Dumbledore said, maybe they Sort too soon. Snape has shown great bravery and struggle through turmoil.

I think he died after Lily died. He has no will but to live to protect her son and which he has done well. If Severus didn't become or want to become a Death-Eater I think Lily and him would still be friends until her death. I hope she forgave him but we really don't know, maybe she finally did but they were so distant she didn't want to approach the situation.

Maybe Severus Snape rest with peace of heart

I had wondered if when Petunia referred to "that boy" she might not be referring to Snape rather than James...after all she always referred to James as 'that Potter." This seems to confirm it.

I was really impressed at how JKR handled Snape's backstory and his love for Lily.
I think it all started out as a thirst for companionship. It seems like Snape's parents were so busy arguing that they forgot to care for their son. His "stringiness" and odd clothes remind me so much of little Harry, ignored and mistreated by the Dursleys.
We're all social animals, and I suspect that the greedy look on Snape's face when he watched Lily and Petunia was a burning desire to have friends.
It really shows how different Snape and Voldemort were: both were neglected, yes, but Snape sought love, whereas Voldemort cast it aside.

And I agree with ginger1 that Snape was asking to see Lily's eyes one last time as he was dying.

Well I am extremely pleased with this relationship being revealed. I had been speculating about it for so long. I had many different theories on it. This one was just done beautifully. Thank you JKR!

Their story touched me and The Prince's Tale made me cry so much. Snape's story is so tragic just tragic. He was a neglected child who was so looking for kinship with someone that someone ended up being Lily. You could see from the beginning that he was infatuated with her, by the time they were in school it grew to love. Snape was obviously not good at verbalizing his emotions to her and instead his poor choices in friends drove them apart. In the beginning of the memories from the Prince's Tale you can see when Snape comes to Dumbledore he is still a very selfish man, by the end of the Princes Tale you could see that he had become a selfless man fully reformed by love. Willing to make sure Harry succeded at all costs. Spying,lying and eventually dying. A hero in my book. :)

I wasn't surprised that severus had loved lily, however, their relationship was much more developed than i though it would be. I didn't think that they would have maintained a friendship since their arrival at Hogwarts. It was gutwrenching when i read the part where Lily asked severus if being muggle born matttered and he paused and replied "no, it doesn't" I cried so much. I think that the story of Severus and Lily was beautifully done and touched me more than anything else in the book.

Given the depths of Snape's anguish over Lily and her death, I wonder how difficult it was for him to live with Wormtail without killing him. Certainly, the DH revelations give new meaning to his extreme emotional outburst at the end of POA.

Deathly Hallows for me revealed Snape to be the wonderful tragic conflicted character I always thought he was.

My heart broke for the uncared for boy in the playground, but there was always that anger and spite in him which he struggled to control. He loved Lily so desperately but he couldn't bring himself to express it. Perhaps in a way he saw her as his because they had been friends for so long. Certainly he is terrified of loosing her to Potter, because he knows James is everything he isn't - good-looking, articulate and charming. Undoubtedly SWM was the moment he lost her. I remember debating with Meesha about this and she was saying that at the end of the scene Lily has sided with the maruaders and I was disagreeing - but actually that was how it was and that was why it was Snape's Worst Memory. There was nothing he could do to put it right.
I really felt for him camping out outside the Gryffindor common room - that must have cost him a lot in the Slytherin common room. But I think Lily was scared by his Dark Side.
I agree with you alwaysme - he did seem to be quite selfish at first but by the end of the Prince's Tale he did seem to have reformed almost completely.

His treatment of Harry - whilst I don't condone it I can certainly understand it - Lily's eyes in James Potter face. Every mistake -every failure was there in Harry - his failure to win Lily, his mistake in telling the prophecy, his failure to save Lily, - that must have been what Snape saw everytime he looked at Harry.
I am sure that Lily would have been furious at his treatment of Harry - she wasn't best pleased with his treatment of herself!
I can't think about this too much to be honest - I find the whole thing too sad - too tragic - it hurts too much :upset:

Or was it "Look at me" so that I can see Lily's eyes once more before I die?

I think it was definitely look at me so I can see her eyes once more. I believed Snape was very much in love with Lily but I never realized it was almost an obsession.

I was not surprised at this relationship at all. But I did believe he met her on the train going to Hogwarts. It was sorta neat? that he knew her before. I also wondered how Petuina fit into this.

I also loved that his Patronus was hers and wierd how James and Harry's was a Stag.

As much as I hate, hate, hate it that Snape died. I liked the way that JK wrote this love story.

I thought it was really sweet how they were friends before they even started at Hogwarts. I thought it was so sad their seperation and subsequent deaths. I'm also left wondering if somehow Snape had ended up in Gryffindor and had avoided the Death Eaters, would those two have ended up together?

Sounds like a good alt-universe fan fic idea to me.

So the "horrid boy" Petunia referred to Lily hanging around with was actually Snape then, yeah?

The worst memory was when he called her a Mudblood and she fired something similarly cruel back to him. He was humiliated in front of her and it was just a really horrible day.

For him to see the eyes of his love in the face of his enemy must have been unbearable.

It is so sad CathyWeasly I cried several times reading that chapter. I think it was clear by the end that Snape had grown to care for Harry even if not admitting it to himself which is another thing I found sad.

I am sure everday was awful for Snape knowing that he helped cause the death of the woman he loved. Knowing that if not for his choices he may have had his chance with Lily. The whole thing is just so tragic but beautiful at the same time.

I had a feeling something was there between Snape and Lily but I never dreamed of this outcome!!
I really hope that their relationship was resolved before Lily passed on, I simply can't bear to think that Snape died without the only person he really loved forgiving him...
I feel so sorry for Snape! Imagine the person you adore falling in love with the person you loathe!!
RIP Snape, in the end you were a true hero :love:

In contrast to SWM, what do you think Snape's happiest moment was? I'm assuming it was with Lily as well, but it must have been pretty happy, as his patronus seemed very powerful.

I was so, so shocked that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts! I always thought they had some kind of relationship, but not as deep as it actually turned out to be. I thought maybe they knew each other from Potions class and Snape had a crush on Lily. I would have never guessed how in depth it actually was.

I cried through the entire pensieve chapter. It broke my heart. I admit it, in that one chapter, Snape went from one of my least favorite characters to one of my favorite. I never would have guessed how brave and loyal he was. I always assumed that Snape was kind of like Voldemort; unable to love. How wrong I was. He loved Lily so deeply that it hurt me to read about it.

What I still don't understand is why Snape was so mean to Harry all those years. Yes, Harry is James' son, but he's also Lily's son. I know Snape truly loved Lily, so it seems like he could have found a way to love Harry too. Or if not love him, at least treat him a bit more nicely just because of his mother...

I don't know how,but when I read about Snape's relationship with Lily,it just felt like it had been there all along,and I hadn't seen it!I always hoped Snape wasn't evil,and I'm glad I was right!It was sooo sad when we actually got to find out Snape and Lily's story!Just watching Snape's memories,and seeing how much Lily had meant to him,was too much for me!I wept like a little baby!:sad:And how awful it must have been for him to see Harry all these years,as a reminder of his terrible mistake!It was just heart breaking,seeing how he spent the rest of his life bearing the thought that he had aided in the murder of his only love!Snape will be missed!He was the greatest hero in HP,no doubt!

I always suspected that Snape loved Lily- but i never thought it would be a best friends scenario?! I guess she saw snapes softer side?! Mind you they were probably intellectual equals- given her talent in areas like Potions etc.

When Snape died (:() im glad he did so with Harry knowing the truth of his feelings toward him and his mum, rather than just his dad.


Im glad she chose James though :)

But, that is why he hated James and Harry. James "won" Lily's heart. But I also think, it pained Snape to even look at Harry. Harry is the reason that Lily died. Snape is reminded every time he looks at Harry that the only woman he loved, loved someone else, and died loving and protecting their child. The pain it must have been to just even have Harry in the same room as him. It was torture to him.

i agree, and not only that, it must have pained him to know that he was the one who led to her death by telling voldemort the prophecy...

I had wondered if when Petunia referred to "that boy" she might not be referring to Snape rather than James...after all she always referred to James as 'that Potter." This seems to confirm it.

Yea, I always had a feeling that it wasn't James, but someone else and I read a theory that Snape loved Lily and "that boy" referred to Snape and I was sold.

Before DH came out, I was really fond of the idea that Snape loved Lily, so I'm really glad it did turn out to be true. And JK Rowling wrote it wonderfully; 'The Prince's Tale' chapter is one of my favorite chapters of all the books in the series.

I thought their relationship was very warming, considering where their lives took each of them after they parted. I felt bad for Snape because he was in love with his best friend, who ended up loving his enemy.

Never have I read anything so heartbreaking!

Even at the beginning of Price's Tale i started crying because of how he told Lily it wasn't important if one is muggleborn!
I wondered then: HOW could this kind, neglected boy ever become this seemingly feelingless man he seems to have become?
And then, when it became obvious that he really loved her and James seemed to fancy her superficially, I wondered if he had deserved her more.
And then, when talking to Dumbledore who ordered to kill him:
WHAT ABOU MY SOUL, DUMBLEDORE?
And crying for Lily..........
Though I think he should have treated Harry differently, now we can understand his anguish and especially why he burst out like this when Harry called him a coward.

For Lily he lived, only for her. Did he have any fun for 20 years? Anyone but Dumbledore who truly trusted him (and Dumbledore had restrictions he felt resented about as well)?

For 1 year he couldn't admit in front of the order that he was still good. He had NOONE!!!!!!!!

He did it for Lily and for Harry

I was really amused that the theories came true. Yet the whole chapter was so heart-wrenching that I couldn't stop crying. :( I guess if Snape hadn't been in Slytherin and made friends with those Death Eaters, Harry would've been Harry Snape instead.

I was really amused that the theories came true. Yet the whole chapter was so heart-wrenching that I couldn't stop crying. :( I guess if Snape hadn't been in Slytherin and made friends with those Death Eaters, Harry would've been Harry Snape instead.

I agree with this. Because of Snape's choices he ruined his chances and he paid dearly for it. :upset:

Well I was glad to learn that Snape's Worst Memory was because of what he said to Lily not what James/Sirius did to him. And I wasn't really all that surprised that Snape had known Lily all along and was in love with her. I just felt he was still a bad guy in the end and that he never actually earned her love like James had done. James love for Lily made him grow up. Snapes love for Lily made him an even worse person IMO.

Prince's Tale was one of the most gut wrenching chapters in the series. I think that the chapter truly echoes Dumbledore's famous saying that it is the choices we make that truly make us who we are not our abilities. It was something to that effect. While Snape made some really poor decisions in Hogwarts and out of Hogwarts, his choice to protect Harry above all, in order to salvage his love for Lily, was quite beautiful.
There's so much to say I can't seem to articulate my reaction.

I was very surprised. I knew Dumbledore trusted him for a reason. I knew the reason for this trust must have been big and beyond any doubt, otherwise Dumbledore would have never trusted him. But I never thought it might be Lily. I love the idea though. I love how much he cared for her. Never thought though the way he behaved. But I do understand him and I do love what Rowling did with his character. He in my opionion is the character that she must have thought most about, having so many layers.
And I do know why Lily cared so much for him. I love him too ;)

I agree with this. Because of Snape's choices he ruined his chances and he paid dearly for it. :upset:

Ah it would be such a story if he made better choices....I feel just as upset, but in the end he ended up saving Harry as much as he could and did even more under Dumbledore. :agree::upset:

I think it is his worst memory because that is truly when Snape lost her. They considered each other best friends up until that point, which was Lily's last straw of tolerance. That's when Snape really lost her, and in matters of love, it was kind of a death. I don't think she ever really forgave him, he had to live with that, and live with the fact that she would never come back for him after that. Regardless of the people he was getting in with, I'm sure he held out hope up to that point that he would someday have a chance with Lily.

I was just about to say this. They were close friends, and Snape loved her romatically as well it seems. Someone from another board explained it perfectly in my opinion. They said, "I think there may be an indication that a romance could have happened if things had been different. Snape was into the dark arts, and Lily wasn't, which ruined a chance at romance. The chance was also blown when Snape called Lily a mudblood. He was Slytherin, she was Gryffindor. I think some of the scenes showed that maybe if Snape hadn't been drawn to the darker side, he could have ended up with Lily. Maybe that's part of why he changes at the end - he switches sides because he realizes his previous loyalties cost him Lily and her future."


Anyways, the chapter "The Prince's Tale" was like several pages of vindication for me, as I had always believed there was a fondness between these two, or at least from Snape's side.

I always loved that theory and was a big supporter of it but i never actually thought it would become true!! When snape said 'look... at...me' my first thought was Lily because of her eyes and i just had to put the book down for 5 minutes because i couldnt see with all my tears. Could you imagion Snape having to see a mini James with 'his' lilys eyes... must of killed him. Also it gives reason for him being so horrible to Neville because if Voldemort had chosen Neville instead then Lily would still be alive.
I believe that after he called lily a mudblood that ending their friendship forever (reason for worst memory) and lily might of been the only thing that kept him away from becoming a deatheater and with her completly lost he had no other reason just to go.
I think if Snape had been sorted into another house lets say Gryffindor then things could of been very different, Snape wouldnt of mixed with those wana be deatheaters, and his friendship with Lily would of no doubt lasted into adulthood. im not sure if it would of became anything more than a friendship, im still thinking lol.
He must of had some powerfull love for her after all those years even perhaps more than James did.

It makes so much more sense now why Snape used to always comment on the Fact that harry was so much like his father. Not only did James used to pick on Severus, but he had taken away the girl he loved.

That had to be insult to injury.

I was very open to the idea that Snape possibly loved Lily but in no way did I see it coming that they were friends so I was quite surprised. In 'Snape's Worst Memory" chapter I got the idea that it was possible that Snape loved her but that she had no feelings for him and possibly didn't acknowledge him. Knew who he was and out of the kindness of her heart took up for him when James and Sirius were attacking him but I never seen it coming that there was a friendship.

I actually find it incredibly sweet. I mean the man appeared to never faulter in his feelings for Lily and begged for forgiveness. He begged Dumbledore to help him warn Lily, begged Voldemort to spare her. The man was truely devoted and there is no evidence that he ever went for another woman after Lily's death.

So I really loved the surprise and loved the way it was written. Broke my heart. Broke my heart when he died. Him telling Harry to look at him *sobs* He wanted to see Lily's eyes before he died.

"What if Snape was really Harry's dad!"
o.o
i'm sorry, but that just made me cringe. xDD
i was tearing up a bit at the end where snape died and said "look at me"
it was so sad....=[

The Prince's Tale is one of the most wonderful chapters in the whole series. Snape as a child is very interesting and his ultimate redemption at the end is also gutwretching. I find it interesting that through Lily's death was it that he was able to redeem himself. If she had somehow lived, he wouldn't have been called into doing what he ultimately did (protecting Harry).

Still, I'm a hardcore Snape fan but I was surprised to find out he still loved Lily after 17 years of her death. That's pretty much his whole life. Plus that Lily was a married woman, had a son, and was dead.

I noticed some people mentioning how Snape "ruined" his chances with Lily. To play the devil's advocate, my question is:

Did Snape really have a chance with Lily?

Was there any indication that Lily, at some point, returned his feelings?

No indication that Lily ever had romantic feelings for Snape but with Dumbledore's line about sorting too soon along with Lily giving him chances to straighten up, I believe it was very possible. It is really just left open for speculation.

Well, I have to say my biggest surprise was it was pretty much as I thought. Even other stuff I guessed basically right didn't happen exactly as I imagined, but this was all I thought (and hoped) it would be. DD trusted Snape because he was capable of true love and true remorse, and therefore could not be evil. Though I admit, he certainly wasn't a nice guy. He was as subtle and complex and human as he should have been. The whole pensieve chapter was the most thorough and detailed tying up of anyone's story that we got. It answered everything I wanted to know.

His death was awful. It was so sad, and he deserved so much better. More of a heroic death would have satisfied, but I guess it illustrated his courage that he had lived with the threat of a cruel death at any time from VM, and did it all to redeem his love for Lily. His was the path of redemption through love. VM was irredemable because he was not capable of love.

Did Snape really have a chance with Lily?

Was there any indication that Lily, at some point, returned his feelings?

No, I don't think there was a literal, canon indication. But I think that since they were fond of each other, Snape referenced them as being best friends, and they had known each other a while - it might have been possible.

I mean, on one hand, as much as I like the idea of a romance between the two, I admit that no, it probably always would have been that Lily was very fond of him, but not in a romantic sense. Who knows, though! If James didn't exist, and if Snape hadn't turned to the dark arts for a while, maybe she would have fallen for him.

I didn't have a problem with Snape loving Lily, it's just that he was so sneering that it never occurred to me until I was guided to some of the Mugglenet editorials.

I still don't get why "Snape's worst memory" was, in fact, his worst memory. Pre-DH, not knowing of his feelings for her, I assumed that, having lived through the first war, surely he'd seen something worse. Now, post-DH, I would think that his worst memory would be finding out that she had been killed. I was obviously wrong before and am still wrong. :shrug:

I thought it was his worst memory because that moment was the one thing that ruined his entire friendship with her. Calling her a mudblood was probably his deepest regret and JKR showed us how bad he felt about it, when he scolded one of the portraits for saying the world, years later. I'm guessing the end of their friendship was in a weird way, more painful than the moment he found out she died.

I never really expected such a deep friendship between Snape and Lily. I was pretty open to the idea of Snape liking Lily, but I didn't expect much more. I was completely suprised to find the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape was because he could prove how strongly he loved Lily.

I kind of wonder if the reason Lily started going out with James was to spite Snape, because Snape hated James so much, but then Lily grew to love James.

I think one of the most sad and touching moments was that Snape wanted to look into Harry's eyes before he died so he could see Lily's eyes one last time.

I was never fond of Snape, even though I believed him to be good, until the chapter with the memories. That was the first time I liked Snape and felt compassion for him. I actually cried while reading it, one of two places I did cry (the other being Dobby's death). I have to say, JKR deserves a round of applause for stumping me so much with the Lily/Snape relationship. :lol:

Did Snape really have a chance with Lily?

Was there any indication that Lily, at some point, returned his feelings?

really i think they would of had a great relationship untill 5th year when Snape started getting more into darkarts, hanging around more with wanabe's deatheaters etc. So if you think about it they would of spent a lot of time with each other, including the summer holidays/christmas etc. So i wouldn't rule it out that something could of happened or came very close to it.
Cant wait for some fanfiction about it lol

No indication that Lily ever had romantic feelings for Snape but with Dumbledore's line about sorting too soon along with Lily giving him chances to straighten up, I believe it was very possible. It is really just left open for speculation.


I agree, there is a lot of possibility there. Also, that one scene where Lily asks why she is different. I cannot help but feel that if Severus revealed his feelings there then there may have been a chance. I just have a feeling that Lily was trying to get him to admit it. I think she knew of the feelings and wanted to hear Severus say the words...

I did believe that Snape loved Lily but not how much and still loved her all these years later and still grieving for her. Snapes worst memory must have been calling Lily "mudblood".
No, I do not think Snape could have had a chance with Lily, she only wanted to be friends.
Princes Tale was a lovely chapter. It did break my heart. I guess that is why JK gave Harry the green eyes of Lily. Snape wanted to protect him because of Lily but at the same time resented Harry because he looked so much like James.

I agree, there is a lot of possibility there. Also, that one scene where Lily asks why she is different. I cannot help but feel that if Severus revealed his feelings there then there may have been a chance. I just have a feeling that Lily was trying to get him to admit it. I think she knew of the feelings and wanted to hear Severus say the words...

Yeah I really think there was loads of possiblity too. Making it so tragic. :sad:

It was :upset: But I think that shows his essence. I mean, he has never been much for words nor has he ever really had the confidence for them. He was shy with her and held back because of the things that went on in his life. He had no one but her and he could not risk losing her with those feelings...

It was :upset: But I think that shows his essence. I mean, he has never been much for words nor has he ever really had the confidence for them. He was shy with her and held back because of the things that went on in his life. He had no one but her and he could not risk losing her with those feelings...


Yes it was obvious when Snape was around Lily he was never that confident. When he starts to tell her about James he is incoherrent, which of course was due to his fear and inability of just how to express his feelings.

I didn't think about it till I read your earlier post Ginger1, but now that I look back, I think it was look at me as in "let me see Lily's eyes." That just makes it so much more sad! I think I read something last year as a clue from JK that "Harry having Lily's eyes would be important" and I think this is why.

Yes it was obvious when Snape was around Lily he was never that confident. When he starts to tell her about James he is incoherrent, which of course was due to his fear and inability of just how to express his feelings.



Yes he wasn't was he? Lol he was flustered and embarassed around her which made it so difficult for him if he ever said it. I think Lily knew, or at least speculated that he liked her liked her, but when he didn't say anything on why she's the only Mudblood that he would associate with and apologize to, she gave up. She stood up for him for a long time, I just wish he acted more on his feelings.

I just wish he acted more on his feelings.

Yes, I know...But I think that ability was sadly squashed by the bullying and ostracism he went through. :( A boy crying is taboo in the schoolyard. After a while, I think he'd learn to hide his feelings so well that when he wanted to express them, he couldn't do it right.

I am really glad to say that none of the revelation came as a shock to me. I had thought that Lily and Severus had perhaps been going to school together before Hogwarts, but living near each other was just fine as a substitute.
I cried. It was so sad to me to see what "Sev" went through for his love of her. I also completely adored his willingness to sleep outside of the Gryffindor common room entrance just to set things straight with Lily.
I'm so immensely pleased with the way it all turned out, and with the way Jo wrote the love. As a side note, I believe that Severus had two aims in asking Harry to look at him when he died: he wanted to be close to Lily, and Harry was the closest he could get; for years he had to keep his true self hidden and he wanted Harry to see him for what he really was and to not hate him anymore, because he had come to care for Harry in spite of himself.

Yes planning to sleep in front of the Gryffindor common room really touched me. He was willing to sleep on the ground to get Lily to forgive him. I mean wow.

Not only that, but to sleep where James and Sirius were going to come out from in the morning and possibly step on him meant more to me.

Also, (and mind you I didn't read the posts on all four pages) I think most people missed the fact that Lily too cared very deeply for Snape. Perhaps not in the same way he felt for her, but it was obviously more than her just feeling sorry for him. The way she showed general concern for the people he was becoming friends with, and stuck by him even when he started becoming interested in the dark arts. This is what I think made the whole thing worse for Snape. He didn't just never earn her love, he had it and lost it by his own actions.

Yes it was obvious when Snape was around Lily he was never that confident. When he starts to tell her about James he is incoherrent, which of course was due to his fear and inability of just how to express his feelings.

Exactly! He had a habit of messing things up when he was with her and he didn't want to do that with his feelings. I felt so badly for him.

Yes, I know...But I think that ability was sadly squashed by the bullying and ostracism he went through. :( A boy crying is taboo in the schoolyard. After a while, I think he'd learn to hide his feelings so well that when he wanted to express them, he couldn't do it right.

I think that training defiantly prepared him for his later life. Just look at his distant demeanor. It is heartbreaking. He keeps everything inside now because of the censure he went through then. It is my belief that there may have been a part of him that thought she would laugh if he told her... and her laughing at him, as everyone else did, was something that he could not face... it would crush him.

I think the relationship also explains why Lily was so good at potions. Or is that why Snape is so good at potions?

I cried through the entire pensieve chapter. It broke my heart. I admit it, in that one chapter, Snape went from one of my least favorite characters to one of my favorite. I never would have guessed how brave and loyal he was. I always assumed that Snape was kind of like Voldemort; unable to love. How wrong I was. He loved Lily so deeply that it hurt me to read about it.

I felt the same way. I went into 7 dead-set against Snape, thinking he was bad, no way JK could make him ok in my eyes after killing Dumbledore, but I was wrong! In that one chapter, she blew my image of Snape into pieces, and re-built him (believably, I might add) into a tormented tragic hero.

Not only that, but to sleep where James and Sirius were going to come out from in the morning and possibly step on him meant more to me.


Yeah that too. Snape was obviously willing to do anything and risk his reputation in his own house. :sigh:

Yes planning to sleep in front of the Gryffindor common room really touched me. He was willing to sleep on the ground to get Lily to forgive him. I mean wow.

That part just touched me so deeply. It shows to me how vulnerable he was with her. To do that in front of everyone, it was his way of showing her how much she really meant.

That part just touched me so deeply. It shows to me how vulnerable he was with her. To do that in front of everyone, it was his way of showing her how much she really meant.

I feel that way too...he is so in love with her, so sorry he would do something like that. And people would most definitely think him bizarre because of it. Also like Mexicant said....what if Sirius and James found him in the morning?

It's great to be back on the forums!

Wow, so it's happened. I've been a supporter of this theory since the "Snapes Worst Memory" chapter in OOTP. They were close friends, but were slowly seperated after being sorted into different houses. Through Slytherin, Snape had gotten into the dark arts, and found himself with a new gang of future death eaters. I suppose this rubbed off on him, and his relationship with Lily began to dwindle- they were becoming opposites. When Severus called her a mudblood in fith year, it must have been the final straw for Lily, and he lost her forever. I believe he did have hope, though, that someday she would return. I guess that, after she had died, Snape turned away from the dark side that had caused him so much pain, and went to Dumbledore.

It was heart-breaking hearing Snapes final words... He wanted to see Lily's eyes one last time.

"Look....at....me.."

I feel that way too...he is so in love with her, so sorry he would do something like that. And people would most definitely think him bizarre because of it. Also like Mexicant said....what if Sirius and James found him in the morning?

I think that would have been very interesting and it was a huge risk for him to do it. I think Severus was the type to show his feelings in actions not words. I think it is the only way he is comfortable.

I think his remorse is also evident... I believe that it may have been Lily's final rejection of him (after the Mudblood comment) the finally drove him to being a Death Eater as well. I think his remorse at this move, and his desire to redeem himself was so perfectly revealed in the scene in Dumbledore's office.

Also, I loved the "Always" as he reveals the doe... That was truly beautiful.

All those times he wanted to say something and he stopped himself. I think if he did then maybe. But what guy would feel confident wearing a woman's blouse. His parents really neglected him so I guess Lily was the one who loved him.

I thought they were friends and hoped more than thought that one sided feelings also existed. I was never a fan of them being friends prior to Hogwarts, I had read quite a few fanfics of the like, where Snape out and tells her shes a witch. Alas that was what JKR had in mind and in the potter world her word well is. Yet Severus telling Lily that she was a witch defintely violates some code of secrecey.

I wish I had something to add to this discussion, but it's all been said. I too thought that Snape was in love with Lily ever since the scene in the pensieve. I didn't know though that they had been friends ever since childhood and he loved her for so long. This chapter completely broke my heart.

I am glad to know that Snape took his pact with Dumbledore right to the grave. Voldemort died never knowing that Snape was working for Dumbledore and protecting Harry. Sheer brilliance.

There is more than one way to love someone, and to me, I'm not even sure if he loved her in a romantic sense. I think he just simply loved her, period, and she him....at least until the Mudblood incident.

A young, lonely boy from an abusive household. A young girl from a household with love, but was treated as somewhat of a freak. Lily found someone that she had a lot in common with and could talk to, someone that didn't find her "freakish," someone she could play with other than her sister. Snape found in Lily the playmate he never had, someone who didn't care how he looked, someone to comfort him and to confide in.

As they got older, I'm sure his feelings changed as something else, but they were still extremely close evidenced by the fact that they were the only two people in HP history with matching Patronuses, probably because they both protected each other, even though at some points Snape was overprotective of her to the point of bordering stalker territory. Then all the arguments about James, Snape's friends, and the final insult drove them apart.

But sometimes (and I'm speaking from personal experience here) even though you may have stopped being friends with someone due to something crazy or even hurtful that they did doesn't mean that you still don't care for that person or wish them well. Even though Lily was happy with James (who had changed tremendously 7th year) it doesn't meant that she didn't care about her old friend and hoped that one day he would come to his senses. On the other hand. her marrying James was probably a mighty blow for Snape, but he probably lied to himself and thought "If she's happy...I don't mind" until her life was threatened by Voldemort...thanks to information he gave him.

What a sad, tragic story all around. T_T

*Edited by staff*

This chapter revealed everything I had suspected and more, though I was quite surprised to see how developed a relationship they had before Hogwarts. Ever since this theory began to make more and more sense to me, I've understood Snape as such an awfully tragic character, and this chapter totally revealed that. The Prince's Tale, definitely my favourite. It was just so sad, so tragic. Poor abused, ignored, lonely Snape...

My favourite line :
"After all this time?"
"Always."

He always, always loved her...

very unexpected. but very intresting as well. i was shocked but happy.
snape.lily WAS really cute

I won't gloat, but I saw this all the way. And yeah, who ever gave Snape a chance at Romance? Don't you think he heard about what a "loser" he was all the time at Hogwarts? All the through the book, what do we see?

As a kid, he's a loner. No money, doesn't fit in with Muggles and his neighborhood is 99.9% Muggle, remember.

As a student, he's got no money, no big-time family, doesn't have the flash of Gryffindor or the genteel wit of the Ravenclaws or the buddy-buddy team spirit of the Hufflepuffs. So it was Slytherin by default, and they were users, his "friends". Remember what we saw in the "Worst Memory", it turned out to be the norm, no Slytherin ever backed up Severus when he was attacked, not even once.

So yeah, Severus is all alone, always, we never once see anyone attracted to him, so who's he got? The one girl who showed him affection, who stood up for him, who treated him as an individual because of who he was, not because he could get them something. Small wonder he truly loved Lily Evans, and never anyone else.

This chapter absolutely broke my heart.

I admit, I was very wrong about Snape; I had always wanted a reason to hate him, and I had been looking to find one in Deathly Hallows. But now my opinion of him has changed forever, which is something that I never thought would happen.

I thought that there may have been some kind of friendship, or perhaps just a mutual respect, between Snape and Lily. I had no idea that he loved her so much, or for so long.

I think the thing that gets to me the most is the fact that he asked Harry to look at him in the Shrieking Shack, so that Lily's eyes would be the last thing he ever saw.

I think his remorse is also evident... I believe that it may have been Lily's final rejection of him (after the Mudblood comment) the finally drove him to being a Death Eater as well. I think his remorse at this move, and his desire to redeem himself was so perfectly revealed in the scene in Dumbledore's office.


Yes I agree here. I think that once Lily was out of his life ,Snape went further down the wrong path. Probably feeling bitter,rejected and alone.

This chapter revealed everything I had suspected and more, though I was quite surprised to see how developed a relationship they had before Hogwarts. Ever since this theory began to make more and more sense to me, I've understood Snape as such an awfully tragic character, and this chapter totally revealed that. The Prince's Tale, definitely my favourite. It was just so sad, so tragic. Poor abused, ignored, lonely Snape...

My favourite line :
"After all this time?"
"Always."

He always, always loved her...

Haha, I had the same reaction while reading that chapter.

Let me start saying that even though I suspected that Snape liked Lily, I never thought he'd love her so much. I believe their friendship at first was based on Snape giving 'magical world' information to Lily when they were kids. Lily probably continued to befriend Snape even though he was attracted to the Dark Arts because he was the first person who she knew that had powers like hers. I imagine that the other Gryffindor students found this friendship bizzare and just wrong, but I believe that Lily didn't care. I always thought there was something more of why Snape hated James so much. In 'Snape's Worst Memory' we see that James bullied him, but we also see and now understand how humiliated Snape must have felt when he was being bullied by them in front of Lily. I think Snape never meant to call her a 'mudblood.' Like he said, it sorta slipped out. Even though Lily was furious at him, I want to believe that in time, she forgave him. I think it would have been a totally different story if Snape was sorted in another house. Slytherins and Gryffindor's have always had many differences and rivalry. If Snape would have been sorted in another house, their friendship would have probably become more than that.

I have to add that 'The Prince's Tale' is one of my favorite chapters of this book. It's sad and beautiful. I always knew that Snape was not bad, but I never though he had the capacity of loving a person so much.

I always avoided the Snape Loved Lily Theory and I was shocked as I read how well parts of the theory held up, as well as the theme as a whole. I couldn't believe the memory we saw. It showed Snape in a manner I would have never believed possible. I was one of those who was on the fence jumping back and forth from whether Snape was good or not. Some Snape fans set me straight in the end, but that was pure luck.

Everything made sense at this point.

I wanted to cry during the chapter. Even when he was dying he wanted to see Lily's eyes...so cute! I love Snape, I went as far as bad mouthing James for getting Lily! Lily should have given him another chance, I mean he was crying reading his letter! He...loved her so much! Poor, poor snape :(

I expected it, I felt it, but it still broke my heart to see it finalized in JKR's words and Snape's memories.
'After all this time' 'Always' is quite possibly my favorite interlude in the book. But Dumbledore's comment that perhaps they sorted people to early, implying that Severus was possibly a Gryffindor underneath the Slytherin exterior, was also interesting. If Severus had been sorted into Gryffindor chances are that he would have married Lily.

I think Snape's initial love for Lily was, well , a bit creepy. He gazes at her "greedily", smirks when she says his name etc. I also think he did have a problem with her being a "mudblood" because he hesitated when she asked if it made a difference. I think deep down he really thought it made a difference. He has no compunction about lying to her - he lies about the branch falling on Petunia. I don't think it was initially love. Although from what we know of Snape's home life he has no clue what real love is about at this point.

His being in Slytherin encouraged all these qualities that Lily didn't see in him. Lupin said in PoA that she always saw the best in people. Whatever good qualities she saw in him were overshadowed by who he was choosing as friends and his attitude about Dark Magic.

I don't think he truly loved her until she was dead. And I say that because before she died she was just a possesion for him. He even asks LV to spare her so he can have her. Lily's sacrifice for Harry is an example to Snape of love. A love he has never known and never will because the only person who came close (lily) was now dead. He loved her too late.

I had always supported this theory, so when it became canon I was both jumping for joy and crying for poor Sev at the same time. :sad:

Let's please keep the "I told you so's" out of the discussion. There is far too much to discuss without adding that to the mix.



Yes I agree here. I think that once Lily was out of his life ,Snape went further down the wrong path. Probably feeling bitter,rejected and alone.

Exactly... he is a man who had no one... truly no one but Lily. He falls in with the wrong crowd after she leaves him and his fate is sealed. Had Lily forgiven him, I feel he would have had the courage to leave that crowd and try and make a normal life.

the part where she gets sorted into a different house than him is sad b/c she gives him this sad little smile and he's upset about it too. and i know that their friendship meant a lot to her as well since her sister basically rejected her as "different," which made his insult to her later "mudblood" a bit of an echo...that she was different.

i wonder if that's who jk had in mind when someone asked her in one of those chats if snape had ever been loved. she said he had, which makes him more culpable than voldemort, who never had been loved. i thought she meant snape's mom at the time, didn't really imagine she might have meant lily as well (even if it was only as a friend-thought it was cute she called him Sev).

and i wonder at their friendship after hogwarts, he actually had to go to dumbledore to ask him to protect lily...it seems the breach had been complete, or else why not go to lily directly? i guess when he became one of the DEs their friendship was definitely and finally severed.

This was definately the best part of the book. I always liked Snape (thanks mainly to Alan Rickman's potrayal, as that was how I got into the entire series at first).

In most cases, redemption stories are not satisfactory but in this case JK really delivered. I did not really catch on the part where Snape told Harry to look at him as a way to look into the same eyes that Lily had. Wow....thats something.

Hmm I speculated pre DH that Snape would be in love with Lily, thought it would make sense and be particularly poignant sub-plot, which of course he was. What a tragic but beautiful irony that Snape had to see the spiltting image of the boy he HATED, but to look in his eyes and see those of the only woman he had ever loved.

On a broader note, which may have been mentioned in another thread, I'm unsure, I love how Jo used Snape's unrequited love for Lily, the story of the Bloody Baron and the Grey Lady, plus the Malfoy family to show that not all Slytherins are simply evil, devoid of love. In fact they are capable of great love, and use their cunning to do anything for them. No Gryffindor could ever do what Snape did, Gryffindors tend to be built up of the typical sort of bravery, like the kind of bravery that leads James and Lupin to their deaths.

That chapter made me bawl. I had been a big supporter of this theory but to finally see it realized in cannon was a whole other experiance. It was one of the most touching chapters, it complety broke my heart.

No Gryffindor could ever do what Snape did, Gryffindors tend to be built up of the typical sort of bravery, like the kind of bravery that leads James and Lupin to their deaths.

While I agree that Snape was extraordinary... I must disagree with the thoughts on Gryffindors as a whole. Just look at Harry... if he does not have bravery, I do not know who does.

In saying that I do not at all diminish the sacrifice that Severus has made. He is (as Harry says) on of the bravest men I know. I think; however, that the bravery is up to the man, not the house into which they are sorted.

I thought Snape loving Lily wouldn't have been reason enough for Dumbledore to trust Snape, but I was wrong. And I liked how it was all played out, everything came together.

Hmm I speculated pre DH that Snape would be in love with Lily, thought it would make sense and be particularly poignant sub-plot, which of course he was. What a tragic but beautiful irony that Snape had to see the spiltting image of the boy he HATED, but to look in his eyes and see those of the only woman he had ever loved.



A nod to Vindictus Viridian of mugglenet fanfiction and her In the Eyes of Others which called the purpose of Harry's eyes, and the origin of Snapes hate for him early on.


I wonder how much Remus and Sirius knew of Snape and Lily. They both say that Snape was immensely jealous of James for his popularity and talent on the quidditch field and the sentence always drags on as if to say something else.

i don't know if this has been said before, but when harry's talking about dementors in book 5, and petunia says something like "i remember him tellling lily about those...." she was talking about snape right? (at first, i thought it was james........) but it makes sense, cause she was eavesdropping on snape and lily....

I sooo loved the chapter that revealed all of this to us; The Prince's Tale.

I, as many others who have posted on this believed that Snape had been in love with Lily, but I too had not realized how far back their relationship had gone. I mean they were friends a couple of years before Hogwarts. I actually love that about the relationship. It is somehow more believable to me that he had gotten to know her as more than just a kind student at school who defended him from bullies and he thought was beautiful. Somehow that just does not seem like it would have been enough to create a love strong enough that he would do what he did; all that he did.

I think that Snape's and Lily's relationship as children developed almost out of necessity. Snape desperately needed friendship, attention, even love that he was obviously not receiving at home. Lily wanted or needed acceptance from someone her own age I think, since her parents did accept her. I seem to remember Petunia saying something about them being thrilled to have a witch in the family when they found out. Snape was the one who understood Lily, even before Lily did. I think that this bond enabled her to tolerate his idiosyncrasies well beyond what anyone else did. The only thing that I think bothers me is, after she was no longer hanging around with Snape, did she suddenly feel that all of James's childish and in some way cruel behavior was no longer that big of a deal? Because let's face it, he was a real...well, you know!

As for the worst memory thoughts...my two cents on the matter go as follows: I think that it was his worst memory, as many have stated, because it was the day he lost Lily for good. I think there is a little more to it though. I think that it was not just that he lost her, as if to another boy, something that was out of his control, but that he lost because of what he himself did. He drove her away and I think that regret had been Snape's companion for the rest of his life.

I also have a bit of theory on some of his poor treatment of Harry. I do believe that much of it was due to what many here have already said, his hatred for James and his refusal to believe that Harry could be more like his mother than his father. But I also do not think that Snape wanted to get too close. I think in his mind James was, to some extent, an excuse. I don't think he wanted to develop a fondness for the boy that might be suspected later on by anyone, especially LV or the DEs. I mean he can remove all the memories that you don't want people to read in your mind, but your feelings toward people could be harder to conceal, I mean if it someone that you have a deeper connection with. (Am I making sense to anyone with that last?:relax:)

I would have to agree with you GOODBYEsunshine. In the chapter Lily asks about the dementors, I would have to say that Petunia was referring to Snape!

I think that Sirius and James would have had to have known. They were together on the train... they would have been around school together.

Now why Sirius never said what Severus really meant to Lily, I am not sure. But again the series is all about timing and I think that these memories could not be revealed until the last and perfect moment...

Remember the pensieve, now I know why Severus was so angry. Not because of what Harry saw but because it could have given him away. It wuld have been too risky for the relationship to be revealed.

I think Snape's initial love for Lily was, well , a bit creepy. He gazes at her "greedily", smirks when she says his name etc. I also think he did have a problem with her being a "mudblood" because he hesitated when she asked if it made a difference. I think deep down he really thought it made a difference. He has no compunction about lying to her - he lies about the branch falling on Petunia. I don't think it was initially love. Although from what we know of Snape's home life he has no clue what real love is about at this point.

His being in Slytherin encouraged all these qualities that Lily didn't see in him. Lupin said in PoA that she always saw the best in people. Whatever good qualities she saw in him were overshadowed by who he was choosing as friends and his attitude about Dark Magic.

I don't think he truly loved her until she was dead. And I say that because before she died she was just a possesion for him. He even asks LV to spare her so he can have her. Lily's sacrifice for Harry is an example to Snape of love. A love he has never known and never will because the only person who came close (lily) was now dead. He loved her too late.

I agree to a certain extent, but seeing what a mess his homelife was I don't think he saw "love" the same way you or I would. Unfortunately, your first impression of how you're suppposed to treat someone you love is shaped a lot on what you see in your home. And based on what Harry saw when he actually managed to zap Snape to read his memories, love meant people getting angry and abusive when they were angry, lying, and things being all hunkyy-dory afterwards. Except with Lily, it wasn't okay.

After being kicked around and neglected by his Muggle father and seeing his mother beaten constantly, the Dark Arts and its whole idealogy must had been very appealing to him. His mother was no prize either, and I think he got a lot of his "Muggles are inferior" dogma from her, which of course was reinforced once he went to school. But he cared for Lily enough that he wanted to shield her from that, even telling her that being Muggle-born wouldn't make a difference at Hogwarts when he knew around certain people it WOULD make a difference.

Snape asked LV to spare Lily's life. It was DUMBLEDORE who basically told him that he was a lowlife for "not caring if her husband and child die as long as you get what you want" which made him ask Dumbledore to protect them all. Yeah, it was really selfish of him to initially ask Dumbledore to spare only Lily, but let's face it, he hated James. Why would he ask Dumbledore to spare him? Also, at this point he and Lily were no longer speaking and besides that, she HATED Death Eaters and would probably not have anything to do with him anyway. I think his main concern at that point was to keep her safe and alive.

He couldn't tell Voldemort the true reason why he wanted to have her spared, because Voldemort doesn't understand anything about love and could possibly use her as a way of controlling Snape in the future (as he did with the Malfoys). Wanting to use someone for lust? Now that's something Voldemort CAN understand, so he agreed to spare her, but that wasn't good enough for Snape. So he went to Dumbledore.

Snape was gawky, overprotective, hesitant to show his feelings and at times outright stalkerish, but I do believe that he honestly loved her.

i don't know if this has been said before, but when harry's talking about dementors in book 5, and petunia says something like "i remember him tellling lily about those...." she was talking about snape right? (at first, i thought it was james........) but it makes sense, cause she was eavesdropping on snape and lily....

Yes I agree... Severus was "That awful boy."

I now see that Slughorn's line about the power of love in HBP when they are discussing love potions in the dungeon during the first day of term is JKR hinting at Snape's feelings. Of course Lily was "able to see the best in people, even when those people couldn't see it themselves." I really don't find it to difficult to see how Lily and Severus could have become friends, because of this. There is so much good in Severus, and he is utterly honorable---but if he'd lived he should have never been allowed to teach again, gawd is he awful :))

I don't think Snape is really that honorable. He could have chosen Gryffindor, not became a Death Eater, and many other things. Honestly, I think if he had chosen different friends he would have married Lily. And even with his love of Lily, he couldn't accept James, or Harry.

Before DH, I hated the Snape-Lily theories. But really, it's the only way Snape could be working for the good side. There's nothing else logical. But I held firm that he was working for himself, which in a way he was, but I think the general consensus is that he is good now.

I
What I still don't understand is why Snape was so mean to Harry all those years. Yes, Harry is James' son, but he's also Lily's son. I know Snape truly loved Lily, so it seems like he could have found a way to love Harry too. Or if not love him, at least treat him a bit more nicely just because of his mother...

Because of his role as spy for Dumbledore.

Even the slightest hint that he didn't hate Harry would've blown his cover. It was extremely important that he be seen despising Harry.

Just a reminder to keep this thread to Snape and Lily - we've got a lovely thread on Snape alone here: Severus Snape: Character Analysis. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108022)

I don't think Snape is really that honorable. He could have chosen Gryffindor, not became a Death Eater, and many other things. Honestly, I think if he had chosen different friends he would have married Lily. And even with his love of Lily, he couldn't accept James, or Harry.



I do not see how he could ever accept James... In Severus' mind, James stole the woman he loved. He got the privilege of marrying her, he had a child with her but mostly, he got her love... a love he so desperately wanted but could not ask for out of fear.

So as far as honorable... I think that he is... perfect no, but he should be honored for how he tried to redeem himself.

Snape is honourable!
Hes the most honourable of all the order.he risked his life..his whole life for a love he could never have.Most his life he was full of hate but his love for Lily allowed him to live.which is what harry potter is all about.the abilities Love gives someone

I read someone saying that he was lying when he said it didn't matter Lily being a muggleborn. I think to him it didn't matter because when he looked at her all he saw was beauty and he maybe loved her since then. I also think he told her it didn't matter because he didn't want her to worry. She was so worried about other things. I think he thought that he would have protected her from it or something.

When Harry saw that patronus he realised how pure it was. Harry doesn't have that reaction to all Patronuses but he had a strong reaction to the doe. The represented Snape's love. Therefore Snape's love was pure. So no he wasn't just obsessed about her. He was in love but he was someone who was straved of any form of affection and when he got it or saw a chance to have it he wanted it all for himslef.

For crying out loud he was wearing a woman's blouse. I think his parents must have been horrible. They just didn't take care of him. Lily called him Severus , apparently invited him into her house and all of that and didn't treat him with disdain. He must have acted like a weirdo because he didn't know or understand what he was feeling.

I don't think that Snape could ever get along with James either. James was nasty from the very beginning to him. It also didn't help that James had all of the qualities he wished he had: confidence, good-looking, loving parents, etc. Even though James mellowed out as he got older and ultimately became a decent person, the fact remains that to Severus, James WAS a nasty, bulying toerag...who ended up with the woman he loved to boot.

That's what I liked the most about this book. It showed people as being PEOPLE, flawed and all. Snape wasn't this awesome person, but he was noble in his own way. Dumbledore wasn't a saint. Lupin being so depressed about Tonks being ostracized by the Wizarding community at large that he felt that maybe she and the unborn baby would be better off without him. Dudley, after years of hating Harry, being disturbed because he thought that Harry didn't have anywhere to go. Harry, despite having moments of pure hate against the Dursley's encouraging them to go into hiding.

Just a reminder to keep this thread to Snape and Lily - we've got a lovely thread on Snape alone here: Severus Snape: Character Analysis. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108022)

KEEP THIS ON TOPIC GUYS.

I never, ever cared for the ‘Snape Loved Lily’ theory. Its not that I didn’t think it was true, I had just never read about it or even thought about it. But now, I love it. I really do.

Do you think that Snape ever looked at Harry, thinking, “That should be my son”? Never mind looking into Harry’s eyes, which were a constant reminder of the woman Snape never had.

And to go along with that, I wonder if Lily ever stopped loving Snape? I whole heartedly believe that Lily loved James with all her heart, but I’m sure there must have been something lingering, whether romantic or not, for Snape.

I read someone saying that he was lying when he said it didn't matter Lily being a muggleborn. I think to him it didn't matter because when he looked at her all he saw was beauty and he maybe loved her since then. I also think he told her it didn't matter because he didn't want her to worry. She was so worried about other things. I think he thought that he would have protected her from it or something.


I was the one who said that, and yes, he did lie to her. It didn't matter to HIM that she was Muggleborn, but he knew good and well that to some people (ie: Slytherin House [which his mother belonged to]), being Muggle-born was something that was looked down upon. He could have told her "Yeah, to some people it WOULD matter, but that's ignorance and most people wouldn't care" but she was already upset about her sister and nervous too boot. So yes, he DID lie...but to spare her.

Ironically enough, he was the one who ended up causing her the most pain over it. :(

I don't think that Snapes love for Lily was ever "creepy" in the sense that it was wrong or unreal. I believe that he did not have a good example at home and did not know how to love another person. He did not receive proper love and he therefore did not know how to give it. As for his lies to Lily...

...about her being a mudblood, I would have to agree with thoe who said that this was not a lie to him. She was the one person in whom this was true for him.

...about the branch hitting Petunia. He had lashed out without thinking, probably because Petunia was belittling him him as his father did, only with his father he could not lash out. I think he reacted because he could and then regretted it, not because he hurt Petunia, but because he was afraid he would lose Lily. That was why he lied to her. That was desperation more so than out and out deceit. And Lily saw right through him. I think she was the one person could never have lied to.

YES I WAS RIGHT!!!! ...along with so many others *ahem*

I did not expect their relationship to have gone back such a long way though. I was thinking more that he fell in love with her at school.

I had a hunch that there was a tie between Snape and Lily, but I thought it would be much more subtle than what was revealed. I have always been a bit middle of the road on Snape, and I rather enjoyed where it was revealed that he had feelings for Lily, not necessarily for the relationship itself, but because it showed or seemed to show how Snape was deep down, or at least I thought so.

As far as who knew about the relationship besides Snape, Lily and Dumbledore. I am sure that the other mauraders had an idea, which probably became a theme is Snape's teasing.

It seemed that, at least to me that Lily did not return the feelings for Snape. In the scenes between them, I think she had a fondness for Snape at a point, but after Snape hit Petunia with the branch and called Lily mudblood, I think Lily chose either to ignore her feelings or lost her feelings, in my opinion.

soooooooooooo touching
Severus Snape please forgive me if i ever doubted you
he was amazing.all he did ,he did it for love...wow...i mean...he was a great man...ill re read the series and i know my attitude towards snape its gonna be different.
I loved how this made evrything have sense.
poor snape really...He never got what he desrved.bless him

soooooooooooo touching
Severus Snape please forgive me if i ever doubted you
he was amazing.all he did ,he did it for love...wow...i mean...he was a great man...ill re read the series and i know my attitude towards snape its gonna be different.
I loved how this made evrything have sense.
poor snape really...He never got what he desrved.bless him

Severus casting his doe in Dumbledore's office with tears in his eyes is one of my favorite scenes in DH already...

I predicted it, yes, but that doesn't make it less touching, it was still well written and I love Snape even more. He's not only my favorite HP character, but also an all-time favorite in all the fiction I've read and watched...

all he did ,he did it for love...
Oh dear ... now I'm going to have that Robin Hood song stuck in my head the rest of the night. ;)

I had always thought the Snape-Lily theory was good and viable...but I never really expected it to work out...probably because I wanted JKR to surprise me....But I liked the way it came together...though the prince's tale chapter felt a little rushed...and I was really hoping to see Harry's reaction to Snape loving his mother whenever he had time to think about it....But I have grown to absolutely love Snape's character..the way its been shaped throughout the series...and the 'look at me' moment is definitely one of the most moving scenes in the entire series...

I also have a bit of theory on some of his poor treatment of Harry. I do believe that much of it was due to what many here have already said, his hatred for James and his refusal to believe that Harry could be more like his mother than his father. But I also do not think that Snape wanted to get too close. I think in his mind James was, to some extent, an excuse. I don't think he wanted to develop a fondness for the boy that might be suspected later on by anyone, especially LV or the DEs. I mean he can remove all the memories that you don't want people to read in your mind, but your feelings toward people could be harder to conceal, I mean if it someone that you have a deeper connection with. (Am I making sense to anyone with that last?:relax:)

That's a real good point!

Severus casting his doe in Dumbledore's office with tears in his eyes is one of my favorite scenes in DH already...


"Always."

What a line! I ca'tt believe how much that one word affected me when I read it. Rowling did an amazing job of building up to the revelations in that chapter.

I want to post on Page Seven of this thread! :)

:love:

*Hums Robin Hood song* "Everything I do . . . I do it for you . . . "

I am very happy, needless to say, and it's awesome to have a friend called "AlwaysMe" since her name was really a prophecy of the Snape/Lily relationship. :tu: :agree:

I don't really have anything to add, except that I'm enjoying reading all the posts here! I never knew so many people believed in this theory before. But we certainly have JKR to thank for two of the most beautiful, heart-wrenching chapters in all of the canon.

One thing about the Doe Patronus - JKR said that a patronus is a "spirit guardian," and therefore, that's the way Snape's love for Lily manifested itself, as the stag patronus is the symbol of Harry's love for James. I think that's how it works - but it comes from the spirit/heart/love. the love protects the spirit, something like that.

I was strongly opposed to the idea in the beginning, but so far it worked out well for the book. The memory finally showed Harry the power of love.

Remember back in book six when he said, "I know I can love" to Dumbledore and almost let slip "big deal!" ?

I don't think Harry would ever underestimate his power after witnessing Snape's sacrifice

I still don't get why "Snape's worst memory" was, in fact, his worst memory. Pre-DH, not knowing of his feelings for her, I assumed that, having lived through the first war, surely he'd seen something worse. Now, post-DH, I would think that his worst memory would be finding out that she had been killed. I was obviously wrong before and am still wrong. :shrug:

I think "Snape's worst memory" in HBP was in fact his worst memory because he lived with the guilt of calling Lily a mudblood. There is no indication that he ever apologized to Lily for what he called her. Being the person that Lily was, it seems that she would have let it go and forgave him. Maybe she did anyway without him having to ask, but the point is he never forgave himself. I think that is why it was his worst memory rather than her death.

I always thought the Snape and Lily theory was plausible, but it didn't really seem that strong to me. Finding out about their friendship even before Hogwarts made it so much more believable and real.

This offered a good explanation of Snape's double triple double...wlel his allegiance to the order but the way it was portrayed made it seem like Lily should have chosen Snape instead of James.

I would have liked to see more of the James/Lily relationship because I think they belonged together and that Snape was merely a childhood friend with a love and NOT a friendship like Ron and Hermione. Lily had no feelings for him and he betrayed her with his Slytherin ways and his lack of bravery to stand up for her. . .

I just predict a lot of people thinking that Lily and Snape had some secret love and that bothers my vision of LIly/james

There is no indication that he ever apologized to Lily for what he called her. Being the person that Lily was, it seems that she would have let it go and forgave him. Maybe she did anyway without him having to ask, but the point is he never forgave himself. I think that is why it was his worst memory rather than her death.
He did apologize to Lily. It's in his memories.

"Always."

What a line! I ca'tt believe how much that one word affected me when I read it. Rowling did an amazing job of building up to the revelations in that chapter.

On a related note, another incredibly powerful line was Dumbledore's "You disgust me." I can't wait to see Gambon say that in the movie...that might be the first time that sentence has ever been uttered on COS :lol:

And the Snape-hates-Harry thing ended just like I thought it would, too: he died still in love with his mother, but cursing the fact that Harry only had her eyes. :lol:

As the "Always" scene shows, it appears Snape really did hate Harry...

Wow. I was so wrong. I thought the Snape Loved Lily theory would never come true and that I would be disappointed if it did. Instead, it was brilliant! I cried so hard. Poor Snape. I always thought he was on the good side, but I never imagined that I would be saying "Poor Snape." The fact that his patronus didn't change after all those years ("always") is one of the most touching things I've ever read. And when Snape berated the portrait for saying "mudblood," I cried even harder. JKR knocked it out of the park. The Prince's Tale is definitely one of the best chapters of the entire series.

I want to post on Page Seven of this thread! :)

:love:

*Hums Robin Hood song* "Everything I do . . . I do it for you . . . "

I am very happy, needless to say, and it's awesome to have a friend called "AlwaysMe" since her name was really a prophecy of the Snape/Lily relationship. :tu: :agree:

I don't really have anything to add, except that I'm enjoying reading all the posts here! I never knew so many people believed in this theory before. But we certainly have JKR to thank for two of the most beautiful, heart-wrenching chapters in all of the canon.

One thing about the Doe Patronus - JKR said that a patronus is a "spirit guardian," and therefore, that's the way Snape's love for Lily manifested itself, as the stag patronus is the symbol of Harry's love for James. I think that's how it works - but it comes from the spirit/heart/love. the love protects the spirit, something like that.

Yes My prophetic name! Woot! :rockon:

Aww the doe patronus chapter has really grown on me the more I read the more teary eyed I get. It is definitely a close favorite with the Prince's Tale.

Snape introduced her to the fact that she was a witch, and so they new each other for a year before going to Hogwarts. I think Lily stayed friends with him even though they were in different houses, because of this. when he started hanging out with the soon to be death eaters she started distancing her self from him, and he made the decision to stay friends with his house friends than to be with her. Soon after he did that he regretted it till the day he died.

I still don't get why "Snape's worst memory" was, in fact, his worst memory. Pre-DH, not knowing of his feelings for her, I assumed that, having lived through the first war, surely he'd seen something worse. Now, post-DH, I would think that his worst memory would be finding out that she had been killed. I was obviously wrong before and am still wrong. :shrug:

I've always been under the impression that the title is from the point of view of Harry, because up until then (if there was any) no other memory had been as bad as what Harry had seen. For me Snape's his actual worst memory is still up for speculation.

No indication that Lily ever had romantic feelings for Snape but with Dumbledore's line about sorting too soon along with Lily giving him chances to straighten up, I believe it was very possible. It is really just left open for speculation.

Well said. :tu:

i always thought there was something to the snape loved lilly theory...but i never thought so young...it was so adorable t see this cold-hearted man warm up to someone other than a slytherin...i also always thought it was this onesided thing and that it started sometime in hogwarts. the thing where the last sight snape wanted in his memory was lilly's eyes was SO cute!

I was SHOCKED!!! Not just by Snape's being in love with Lily, but also with Petunia's reactions to Lily's being a witch! It was all so...I just could never believe it, really! I still can't, sort of. It's just...unbelievable, incredible! I don't believe things would've been different if Snape and Lily had been in the same House, perhaps because Lily would NEVER agree with Snape's being a Death Eater, although now i think he might've done it out of spite, also. He might not have done it if Lily had...It caused his turnaround, though, of course, that prophecy. Now I see how he had felt regret after telling Voldemort the Prophecy. It must have been quite difficult for him to see Harry had his mother's eyes.

I would have liked to see more of the James/Lily relationship because I think they belonged together and that Snape was merely a childhood friend with a love and NOT a friendship like Ron and Hermione. Lily had no feelings for him and he betrayed her with his Slytherin ways and his lack of bravery to stand up for her. . .

The canon says otherwise. Lily still considered Snape her best friend in Year 5. Not her boyfriend, but still her best friend. That's some six years they were friends, from before they started school at Hogwarts.


"...thought we were supposed to be friends?" Snape was saying. "Best friends?"

"We are, Sev, but I don't like some of the people you;'re hanging round with!"


(Emphasis in original). Her own words on the subject of her feelings for Snape - Sev was her best friend.

I am also a member of the How-Very-Wrong-I was club.

Previous to reading the book, I had seen the theory of Snape and Lily having a relationship outside of co-exhisting as students at Hogwarts. To me this was far-fetched...deep imagination. I was extremely wrong.

I am still in complete shock over the revelation that Snape loved Lilly. Though now, in hindsight, of course. That makes sense to me. The one thing DD ultimatly believes in is Love. No wonder he believed Snape...Snape was in love with Lily. Though I am a bit surprised that Snapes feelings of envy twards James for his attentions twards Lily passed on so much to Harry. However; I obviously don't understand this subject very much.

In my imagination, Lilies friendship with Snape was not in danger after he hit Petunia with the branch. I'm sure she suspected, but brushed it aside. After all, Snape was the only person in her world that understood magic at the time. The last straw had to have been the Mudblood comment; though, his friendships with would be death Eathers obviously put a strain on their relationship.

4-halls, I agree with you about the worst memory. At the time, I believed that the memories in the...oh i forgot the name...basin thingy....oh pensive...were of times that the Maurauders made a fool out of Snape. Now I see that they were memories that revealed his love for Lily.

I'm the horrible type of person that feels like Snape got what he deserved. He let his hate and anger take over his life and ruin all of that which love could have saved. I completly understand the words "you disgust me"

I do find the Patronus extremely touching. No matter how much he may have wished to move on, he couldn't. True love, his patronus was "always" Lily

Snape introduced her to the fact that she was a witch, and so they new each other for a year before going to Hogwarts. I think Lily stayed friends with him even though they were in different houses, because of this. when he started hanging out with the soon to be death eaters she started distancing her self from him, and he made the decision to stay friends with his house friends than to be with her. Soon after he did that he regretted it till the day he died.

I agree. And I also feel that is why he turned on Voldermort and came to Dumbledore. He had learned from taking the wrong the path as a teenager. He had learned what consequences were paid because of his actions and didn't want that to happen again in the future.

I was amazed to see this relationship, I knew he had fancied Harry's mom, but having a Pre-Hogwarts freiendship. I never saw that coming, I thought it was even more surprising that Petunia had known who Snape was.

One thing about the Doe Patronus - JKR said that a patronus is a "spirit guardian," and therefore, that's the way Snape's love for Lily manifested itself, as the stag patronus is the symbol of Harry's love for James. I think that's how it works - but it comes from the spirit/heart/love. the love protects the spirit, something like that.Do you remember in POA, when Harry has a dream that he's walking through a forest, following something white...course, this was during the time that Harry was learning to cast a Patronus and of course a stag represented his father.He had a very strange dream. He was walking through a forest, his firebolt over his shoulder, following something silvery-white. It was winding its way through the trees ahead, and he could only catch glimpses of it between the leaves. Anxious to catch up with it, he sped up, but as he moved faster so did his quarry. Harry broke into a run, and ahead he heard galloping. Then he turned a corner into a clearing and...Was this a bit of DH foreshadowing of the 'Silver Doe'?

I was also shocked about the fact that the boy in the "I heard her talking about them with that boy" was not James (discussion on the dementors fifth book in Dursley's living room just after the attack) was Snape, not James. It appears that Petunia shared Harry's views on Snape.

A few of you must know that though I never doubted Snape to be on our side, I was unsure about his feelings for Lily, but as I read it there was no surprise in my brain… In fact there wasn’t much of anything but sheer affection for Snape, and an uncontrollable urge to embrace him.

He really, truly, deeply loved her. That was all there was to it, and it was the most beautiful thing. You know, Snape reminded me a bit of Ron in that sequence… at least the parts where he was a child and a teenager. Snape had loved Lily since they were young children, just as Ron had loved Hermione, and we’ve all seen now how deeply Ron’s insecurity about Hermione’s feelings (or possible lack thereof) for him affected him and the way he behaved and the way he thought and performed. I just imagine how Snape must have been the same way; he had these same deep, loving feelings for Lily, and yet he had a true well-founded reason to believe she would never love him: because she wouldn’t. I just remember thinking of how Ron acted when Hermione was showing affection to him as opposed to how he acted when she wasn’t, and I wondered whether Lily had ever shown Snape that deep kind of affection? I doubted it, especially as an older teenager, because she just didn’t love him. I wondered how knowing this, not just suspecting or fearing it like Ron, affected Snape’s personality.

I always "shipped" Snape/Lily, but I never imagined they were friends since they were like, 8 years old or whatever it was. But I really like it! I was really happy to finally see another side of Snape, a soft and loving side. I also like that he loved her but she didn't love him back. I know that sounds brutal but it would just have been too weird if she loved him too. Although, I do think that perhaps if they had been in the same house, and he had steered clear of the Dark Arts, they might have ended up together. But then the whole story would've been different, wouldn't it? Perhaps Harry would still have been born to Lily, with Snape as his father, but would he still be "the boy who lived" in that case? It just couldn't be the same.
It was so sad how Snape died, especially looking into Harry's (Lily's) eyes.

I'm very happy that this question has been put to rest by JKR, so that it may be discussed again. Although I'd thought that Sev and Lily must have had a friendship, I'd always believed it to be more superficial and later - so, kudos to those of you who suspected otherwise! ;)
I don't think that Snapes love for Lily was ever "creepy" in the sense that it was wrong or unreal. I believe that he did not have a good example at home and did not know how to love another person. He did not receive proper love and he therefore did not know how to give it. As for his lies to Lily...

...about her being a mudblood, I would have to agree with thoe who said that this was not a lie to him. She was the one person in whom this was true for him.I have to agree with this, as well. Although I very much doubt that it was romantic love at so young an age, I definitely was left with the feeling that Sev already highly valued her. That exchange was as good as him saying to her, "To me, you are perfect."
...about the branch hitting Petunia. He had lashed out without thinking, probably because Petunia was belittling him him as his father did, only with his father he could not lash out. I think he reacted because he could and then regretted it, not because he hurt Petunia, but because he was afraid he would lose Lily. That was why he lied to her. That was desperation more so than out and out deceit. And Lily saw right through him. I think she was the one person could never have lied to.
I also agree with you here. I think it would be unrealistic to expect such a young boy, fearful of losing his only friend, to react otherwise. He wasn't so different from Lupin there, actually.

As I was reading the chapter, it struck me that they probably slowly began drifting apart, being in different houses. Sev was in Slytherin because his mother was in Slytherin and Sev's idea of the houses was that Slytherins were "brainy," while Gryffindors were merely "brawny." Unfortunately, given the political climate during their schoolyears, during VWI, the houses were probably more divided than at other times during the school's history. Snape does seem predisposed to dislike Muggles, possibly because of his father, but I imagine that it was really his placement in Slytherin House that reinforced his predisposition, eventually leading to his fatal mistake in calling Lily a "mudblood." It's probable that Sev was actually in love with her by that time, but he couldn't admit it to her openly, though she surely must have known:'I know your theory,' said Lily, and she sounded cold. 'Why are you so obsessed with them, anyway? Why do you care what they're doing at night?'

'I'm just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.'

The intensity of his gaze made her blush.So, Sev hasn't been following the Marauders around to get them expelled, as was previous thought, but because he wants desperately for Lily to see them in the same light he does.

I don't see Sev's love as obsessive at all, as some poeple have said. There is no indication that once she spurned him for good, he continued to bother her or interfered in her relationship with James. His love was not destructive. It was not his love for her being spurned that caused him to join the Death Eaters, I don't think. He seemed already headed that direction. Though, I think that her love for him in return, if she'd forgiven him when he asked for forgiveness, might have been the beginning of him turning toward another direction instead. Dumbledore calls Sev's love for Lily "the best of [him]." It caused him to selflessly offer "anything" for her and those she loved. It caused him to beg Voldemort for mercy on her behalf - something that could not have been easy, given Voldemort's nature and the difficulty he would have in admitting his love. Clearly, Sev is not fully transformed at that point, asking mercy for Lily in exchange for Harry; however, contrast that with Snape's horror and outrage that Dumbledore has been "raising [Harry] like a pig for slaughter." Even though Lily is long dead, his love for her causes this outrage at Dumbledore's morally ambiguous plan. By this time, Sev's love for Lily has transformed him and we next see him ordering the portrait of Phineas Nigellus never to call Hermione (or anyone else) a "mudblood." I also agree with those who have said that Sev's love for Lily is represented by his Patronus and this is pure; "her presence had meant safety." The patronus is described as: "beautiful," "dazzling," and "nothing but light." It's representative of Lily, yes, but it's Sev's creation - it represents him as much as it does her.

Severus casting his doe in Dumbledore's office with tears in his eyes is one of my favorite scenes in DH already...
I was confused about that. Were the tears in Sev's eyes or Dumbledore's? :huh:

I'm not sure if this is still strictly on topic, but now I find the relationship between Snape and Dumbledore one of the more intriguing ones in the series.

It appears to me that Snape really did hate Dumbledore the night he killed him. For a different reason, though, than being forced to kill...the fact that he knew Dumbledore had used him was the reason he hated Dumbledore so much at that particular moment.

I was surprised by the unveiling of this relationship. I had read many theories on it, but wanted whole heartedly to believe that Snape was evil and incapable of love. After all, he did kill Dumbledore! I never could understand why Snape was soooo awful to Harry if he had truly loved his mother. It makes a little more sense now. He hated James, and Lily claimed to find him obnoxious as well, so when they end up together, Snape couldn't help but be jealous. As much as Harry was Lily's son, he was also James's. We are reminded again and again of how much Harry looks like his father, other than his eyes, so it would be difficult to look at this child who is a constant reminder of what you never quite had. I found it incredibly touching when Snape was dying that he told Harry to "Look at me." Even in death all he could think of was Lily and he wanted to die looking into "her" eyes. Very sweet indeed.

First let me say, "WOW"

I mean I knew Snape fancied Lily but I could have never guessed the length of the relationship lasting all the way back to when they were, what 6 to 8 years old.

And the whole Snapes request to dont kill her and Voldemort did and then Snapes remorse and anger over Lilys death began the beginning of Voldemorts undoing. It was so strong that it caused Dumbledore to trust Snape implicitly -

Truly I was blown away...:whistle:

When I first read about the idea in fandom I was like "Oh..oh, No! If that happens I am chucking my book at the wall!" Well, I don't know how I imagined it then, but the way JKR worded it and showed it through the memories really didn't bother me. I actually had a feeling that there was more to the worst memory and that James was a redherring. But it was great. Made me like Severus. He's on my top favorites list now!! :)

I am glad you brought up the whole obsessive love thing Chiev because when I think of obsessive love my mind jumps to something negative. If Snape's love was obsessive for me it was a positive obsession if that makes any sense. Something that made Snape a better person.

The story had it coming, I mean with what Snape was always so obvious about his hatred for James, but his mention of Lily Evans was nil. But it still surprised me honestly, how deep his love for the woman he loves goes.. it was truly noble and admirable :)

I was a bit surprised about Snape and Lily having a relationship before school. It's really neat though, in my opinion... I think it's very cool that JKR showed us that blood status didn't originally matter to Snape. And I understand his worst memory a lot more now... before DH I thought it showed how awful James and Sirius could be to Snape, and that's what made it bad, and now I see that it's his worst memory because it shows his feelings about Lily, and that was probably the moment that their friendship broke for good.

I had always believed Snape to be trustworthy ... although it became more and more difficult over the years.

My favorite chapter, of all the HP books, is the The Prince's Tale. It was beautiful and it gave more depth to not only Snape, but to how wonderful Lily was ... I found the reality of thier real relationship to be the most human, and the most loving tale in the entire story.

It was, not only a complete surprise, but for me, the real purpose of the story. To hear that they were "best friends" and to see, Snape, camped outside the enterance to the common room ... we all have known that kind of love. And it made Snape the most real, honest character.

And it made Lily more beautiful ... and for so long, she loved him, as a friend, too.

I was surprised by the unveiling of this relationship. I had read many theories on it, but wanted whole heartedly to believe that Snape was evil and incapable of love. After all, he did kill Dumbledore! I never could understand why Snape was soooo awful to Harry if he had truly loved his mother. It makes a little more sense now. He hated James, and Lily claimed to find him obnoxious as well, so when they end up together, Snape couldn't help but be jealous. As much as Harry was Lily's son, he was also James's. We are reminded again and again of how much Harry looks like his father, other than his eyes, so it would be difficult to look at this child who is a constant reminder of what you never quite had. I found it incredibly touching when Snape was dying that he told Harry to "Look at me." Even in death all he could think of was Lily and he wanted to die looking into "her" eyes. Very sweet indeed.

As a frequent poster in the "Snape the Hero" thread, may you forgive me if I say "BWAHAHAHA IN YOUR FACE!!" :lol:

But seriously, though, Snape's story was incredibly touching, even though I predicted it before DH. Although his death was painful, at least he got to look into Lily's eyes one last time....I wonder what James would think of Harry naming his grandson after dear old Snivellus...

Do you remember in POA, when Harry has a dream that he's walking through a forest, following something white...course, this was during the time that Harry was learning to cast a Patronus and of course a stag represented his father.He had a very strange dream. He was walking through a forest, his firebolt over his shoulder, following something silvery-white. It was winding its way through the trees ahead, and he could only catch glimpses of it between the leaves. Anxious to catch up with it, he sped up, but as he moved faster so did his quarry. Harry broke into a run, and ahead he heard galloping. Then he turned a corner into a clearing and...Was this a bit of DH foreshadowing of the 'Silver Doe'?It very well could have been. I wonder what it would mean, if Harry was dreaming of Snape's patronus in PoA, though?

The story had it coming, I mean with what Snape was always so obvious about his hatred for James, but his mention of Lily Evans was nil. But it still surprised me honestly, how deep his love for the woman he loves goes.. it was truly noble and admirable :)

I have to say, me too. I always believed him to be on our side, but still the idea of his having experienced such true and pure love for a woman was a new idea, that melted my heart like a Popsicle.

This chapter was the chapter that got me the closest to crying. Honestly. It was so heart wrenching to see not only the whole Snape loved her till the end and died while looking into her eyes, but also seeing how the relationship between Petunia and Lily falls apart by Lily being admitted into Hogwarts and leaving a jealous Petunia behind. We see her first "betrayal" (I say for lack of a better word) to Lily by calling her a freak and spitting at her. In "Tuny's" mind, she already disowned Lily which was incredibly sad seeing how close they were before.
Honestly, it's my most favorite chapter in all of the Harry Potter series.

I am glad you brought up the whole obsessive love thing Chiev because when I think of obsessive love my mind jumps to something negative. If Snape's love was obsessive for me it was a positive obsession if that makes any sense. Something that made Snape a better person.Yes! But, I don't think it was obssessive - I think it just was...he wouldn't be himself without loving Lily...

This chapter was the chapter that got me the closest to crying. Honestly. It was so heart wrenching to see not only the whole Snape loved her till the end and died while looking into her eyes, but also seeing how the relationship between Petunia and Lily falls apart by Lily being admitted into Hogwarts and leaving a jealous Petunia behind. We see her first "betrayal" (I say for lack of a better word) to Lily by calling her a freak and spitting at her. In "Tuny's" mind, she already disowned Lily which was incredibly sad seeing how close they were before.
Honestly, it's my most favorite chapter in all of the Harry Potter series.

Yeah, tears got in my eyes the first time...and I think The Prince's Tale might be my favorite...it contains arguably the two most powerful lines in the series..."You disgust me," and "Always,".

God I can't wait, Gambon and Rickman are both such incredibly talented actors...

Not that I'm gloating, but I knew about this Snape loves Lily all along. I mean, it makes perfect sense! There were no flaws in it!

It may sound completely ridiculous, but I think that Lily may have loved Snape back, even if she did not end up together with him. True, she loved James and singled him out as the companion of her future life and the father of her son, but I don't think she ever let go of Snape. Not really, anyways.

I just wish JKR could've explained more about their relationship.
I cried, in the chapter, harder then I've ever cried in my life.

First of all, I love how Snape is getting most of the attention in this forum :-P

Secondly, I think this relationship was almost non-surprising for me, because of how many people had theorized that this would happen. The only exciting thing that happened for me was the memory that came after Snape's Worst Memory - where he said he would sleep outside Gryffindor tower if Lily didn't come out, and when he proved to Dumbledore that his patronus was Lily's. Everything else was too...expected.

All in all, the chapter that revealed their relationship answered the MOST QUESTIONS that I had when reading this series. I think it was one of the clearest chapters without needing into going into long monologues and explanations and Q&A's thanks to Dumbledore. So this was a rare treat.

Imagine! Snape could have been Harry's father! He just made some very different choices...but still! I love how 'love' is such a strong theme in this book, and the series. And Snape being able to 'love' is really extraordinary and just strengthened the theme even more. I think, out of all the characters, learning that Snape loved someone is supposedly a shell-shocker. Actually, Voldemort loving someone would have been a bigger shell-shocker, but if he loved, we would never have a good villain now, would we? o_O

And good point there - I really can't wait to see Rickman act out his death scene. And to be with Gambon! I'm glad Rickman is gonna be there till the end - I was already disappointed to see Oldman leave so soon!

I don't have a lot to add right now..I am overjoyed that Snape/Lily turned out to be true. Not because I really bought into it, but more because it showed a depth to Snape's character that he never let anyone see throughout the whole series. I was surprised that they were friends from when they were young...but I love it.

I also love reading all of the posts, especially those by people who doubted Sev and now think he is brave.

Im reference to several people (forgive me, I don't have the quotes) who were speculating whether or not SWM was really Snape's worst, I think it was. I think this memory was the turning point in Snape's life. He lost Lily, and we see no memories afterword that showed us that Lily ever forgave Snape. To be honest, this kind of changed my opinion of Lily. But aside from that, I think Snape suffered immensley after he lost Lily...both as a friend, and then to James. He turned bitter. He had lost the only person who ever had truly seemed to care about him, and so he turned to his "friends", the death eaters, to give him worth. Voldemort took Snape at perhaps the lowest moment in his life. I don't blame him for that.

But, I also agree that Snape truly learned to love selflessly after Lily's death. He did want to save only Lily, but after she died, I think Snape began his reformation. He died truly knowing love, forgiveness, and humility. He died a hero.

But, I also agree that Snape truly learned to love selflessly after Lily's death. He did want to save only Lily, but after she died, I think Snape began his reforamation. He died truly knowing love, forgiveness, and humility. He died a hero.

couldn't have said it better :clap::D

What a beautifully crafted chapter the Princes Tale was. I had suspected the relationship but the Silver Doe chapter confirmed it for me. I don't know HOW I am going to be able to read that chapter out loud to my husband... we are pretty far away from it right now so I have time to steel myself. The clicher for me, though, was Harry naming his son Albus Severus. It was just the topper to the whole thing. Loved it!

I don't think that Snapes love for Lily was ever "creepy" in the sense that it was wrong or unreal. I believe that he did not have a good example at home and did not know how to love another person. He did not receive proper love and he therefore did not know how to give it. As for his lies to Lily...
But Harry didn't have a good example and he could love. I think this is what separate Snape from Harry, making Snape more evil than Harry. But I also think it's what separates Snape from Voldemort: Snape has known love. Lily could be friends with him, but I don't think she ever could have loved him like she loved James. Even if Snape is good, there is an evil side to him. It is undeniable. He reveres the Dark Arts and doesn't hesitate to use them. Lily would never love someone who allowed the torture of students, even if it was for her/the greater good.


...about her being a mudblood, I would have to agree with thoe who said that this was not a lie to him. She was the one person in whom this was true for him.
It was true that Snape didn't care, but it was a lie that no one else would. He knew they would. He lied to spare her the anxiety.

...about the branch hitting Petunia. He had lashed out without thinking, probably because Petunia was belittling him him as his father did, only with his father he could not lash out. I think he reacted because he could and then regretted it, not because he hurt Petunia, but because he was afraid he would lose Lily. That was why he lied to her. That was desperation more so than out and out deceit. And Lily saw right through him. I think she was the one person could never have lied to.
I think it was uncontrolled magic. Like Aunt Marge. Lily was disgusted because Snape's anger caused him to hurt without even trying.

I am glad you brought up the whole obsessive love thing Chiev because when I think of obsessive love my mind jumps to something negative. If Snape's love was obsessive for me it was a positive obsession if that makes any sense. Something that made Snape a better person.

I see what you mean. I see it as being similar to Woody's question in 'Toy Story'. If you do the right thing for the wrong reason, are you still a hero?

I'm not sure what to make of the relationship. On one hand, it seems that he truly loved her, but some of the details shown suggest that he never really cared about what Lily wanted or cared about. Snape was always his own man, until he realised that he'd condemned Lily to death by revealing the prophecy to Voldemort.

But Harry didn't have a good example and he could love. I think this is what separate Snape from Harry, making Snape more evil than Harry. But I also think it's what separates Snape from Voldemort: Snape has known love. Lily could be friends with him, but I don't think she ever could have loved him like she loved James. Even if Snape is good, there is an evil side to him. It is undeniable. He reveres the Dark Arts and doesn't hesitate to use them. Lily would never love someone who allowed the torture of students, even if it was for her/the greater good.

I disagree that Lily couldn't have loved Snape the way she loved James. I think it is implied in the text that there could have been more but this is just my personal opinion. Also I don't remember Snape torturing his students. Strict? Yes Harsh? Yes.When I think of torture I imagine someone like Umbridge.

...I also agree that Snape truly learned to love selflessly after Lily's death. He did want to save only Lily, but after she died, I think Snape began his reforamation. He died truly knowing love, forgiveness, and humility. He died a hero.He may have WANTED to only save Lily, but he had to know that Albus would never agree to save just her. Snape is not an idiot. He could not have gone to that meeting believing Albus would save Lily alone and leave James and Harry to die. Yet he GOES - and in fear of his own life.

He might have 'wished' he could have her, but he preferred to ensure her protection - which necessarily, by invoking Albus' help, included a living James and Harry. As he said when asked by Albus what he would do to ensure her protection, he answered 'anything' and that included helping James at the same time as he helped Lily.

I know it disgusted Albus, but at least Snape did not try to lie. He had to know that Albus would not save Lily alone. And since Albus was on good terms with James, Snape also had to know that Albus would find Snape's wish for a Lily without 'encumbrances' disgusting. Yet, just as he does throughout the entire series, he tells the distasteful truth - even about himself.

On a purely personal note, I have to point out that I have been waiting to read posts by alwaysme. When i first joined the forums, right after HBP, I never once had entertained the idea that Snape could be good, let alone, have loved Lily Potter. But reading the old Snape/Lily threads, always me convinced me totally of this theory. It was cool to read it explained by JKR. Extrememly touching and heart wrenching. Before DH, I couldn't imagine how Harry would be able to accept snape loving his mom and having him see the memories in snapes viewpoint was brilliant!

But Harry didn't have a good example and he could love. I think this is what separates Snape from Harry, making Snape more evil than Harry. But I also think it's what separates Snape from Voldemort: Snape has known love.

I agree. Basically, it all comes down to choices, and Harry was strong enough to choose what was right and not what was easy. Snape and Dumbledore just weren't as strong when they were his age. That explains why Dumbledore was so impressed with Harry.

Lily could be friends with him, but I don't think she ever could have loved him like she loved James.

True. However, they had a beautiful friendship, and I feel that if it hadn't been for Snape's choices, and his prejudices at the time, he might have had a fair chance. Lily did like him as a friend. I find it rather ironic though, that James saving Snape seems to have got her into Lily's good books a bit.

basically snape's love for lily broke my heart. I sort of felt that Snape was so infatuated by her and had such little self confidence that he never had the courage to tell her. When her and Potter got together, he sort of realized he had no chance, but still loved her.

I agree with those that have been saying that he has done terrible things. He wasn't exactly a good-natured fellow. As much as I sympathize with him about Lily, I cannot forgive him for treating students the way he did.


More about the relationship though. I absolutely loved that Lily and Severus were best friends, rather than Snape just pining for a total stranger. I also thought that Jo did a fantastic job and picking certain memories to share with us. Nothing was over the top, and you really became involved in their friendship and Snapes love. It was definately my favorite part of DH.

On a purely personal note, I have to point out that I have been waiting to read posts by alwaysme. When i first joined the forums, right after HBP, I never once had entertained the idea that Snape could be good, let alone, have loved Lily Potter. But reading the old Snape/Lily threads, always me convinced me totally of this theory. It was cool to read it explained by JKR. Extrememly touching and heart wrenching. Before DH, I couldn't imagine how Harry would be able to accept snape loving his mom and having him see the memories in snapes viewpoint was brilliant!


Gosh thanks so much. :blush:

When I first started reading the books several years ago I always suspected there was a lot more to Snape then we knew. When I read OOtP I had suspicions that there was something about Snape/Lily we didn't know and then by the time I read HBP I was convinced that there was a connection and some sort of mutual one. Snape just seemed like a man in mourning, a gothic hero type. It just always seemed right. :)

But Harry didn't have a good example and he could love.

I think though that Harry had a foundation for love from his parents and he witnessed love at the Dursley's. I mean they did dote on Dudley. Snape had no example from the off, if I am understanding his homelife right.

As for Snape allowing the torture of students...I was a bit sick about that one too. I logically know that he had to keep his cover going. I think he felt that it was still the best way to protect Harry. I'm not so sure that he encouraged or participated in the torturing. I'd like to think that he sort of locked himself in the Headmaster's office and tried not to think about it knowing he couldn't do anything about it. I have a hard time with the thought of it though, so I could see where a good and kind person like Lily might take great offense to him doing nothing about any of it. I don't think that it would have been something that she would be able to overlook.

I disagree that Lily couldn't have loved Snape the way she loved James. I think it is implied in the text that there could have been more but this is just my personal opinion. Also I don't remember Snape torturing his students. Strict? Yes Harsh? Yes.When I think of torture I imagine someone like Umbridge.

Lily could have loved Snape, if he wasn't evil, is what I meant.

And in DH Snape tortured the students. Even if it wasn't direct, he was headmaster. And Neville and Harry = verbal abuse. And Hermione.

I'm not sure what to make of the relationship. On one hand, it seems that he truly loved her, but some of the details shown suggest that he never really cared about what Lily wanted or cared about. Snape was always his own man, until he realised that he'd condemned Lily to death by revealing the prophecy to Voldemort.Yes, he cared a great deal about what she thought. That's the reason he lied when his uncontrolled magic caused the tree branch to fall on Petunia. That's why he backtracked when she responded badly to him saying that he wouldn't "let her" think of James as a hero for having saved him. He was already completely hers.

it kind of freaked me out to know that snape very well could have ended up being harry's father. that was weird.

I still don't get why "Snape's worst memory" was, in fact, his worst memory. Pre-DH, not knowing of his feelings for her, I assumed that, having lived through the first war, surely he'd seen something worse.
Now, post-DH, I would think that his worst memory would be finding out that she had been killed. I was obviously wrong before and am still wrong. :shrug:



I think it was Snape's worst memory because it was when he was utterly humilated and also said the most hateful thing to his best friend. It's like saying a racial epithet to one of your best friends and then trying to reconcile with them. Can you blame them for not wanting to be bothered with you???? James Potter was not a very nice person when it came to Snape and their interactions,:relax:, but regardless, Snape was still Lily's friend.

Lily could have loved Snape, if he wasn't evil, is what I meant.

I do agree that because of Snape's choices he ruined his chance but I definitely think there would have been a chance had the circumstances been better.


And in DH Snape tortured the students. Even if it wasn't direct, he was headmaster. And Neville and Harry = verbal abuse. And Hermione.

Not to get to far off-topic I really don't believe Snape could do anything. It is unfortunate that he had to stay in character but it was necessary for Harry to succeed.

I do agree that because of Snape's choices he ruined his chance but I definitely think there would have been a chance had the circumstances been better.



Not to get to far off-topic I really don't believe Snape could do anything. It is unfortunate that he had to stay in character but it was necessary for Harry to succeed.

I don't think he could of done that to a young person. You think he have seen enough torture in life already first from his family, then what happens to him in school, also what he does to Lily which is a type of self killing torture, then Death Eater activity, Voldy #1 man activity, then spying then just really having no one like him other than Dumbledore, maybe. And most of this tragedy happens very early in life.

He's always been an outcast and I think I would hope the kindness Lily showed him would reflect a bit. Even though we do know he wasn't exactly the nicest he wouldn't torture them. I think posessing love that great for Lily has to make you somewhere a good person. I mean really its like magical, literally and figuratively. I just really wished their actions were different, especially Severus's towards Lily, it would of been different if he actually listened to her when she asked him to stop hanging out with future Death Eaters. I wonder so if she ever forgave him...

As for Snape allowing the torture of students...I was a bit sick about that one too. I logically know that he had to keep his cover going. I think he felt that it was still the best way to protect Harry. I'm not so sure that he encouraged or participated in the torturing.


We know he didn't. He had Neville, Ginny, and Luna dead to rights for stealing from his office. Instead of letting the Carrows take care of it, or doing something vile himself, he sent them to the Forest with Hagrid, which Harry at the time attributed to stupidity. I don't believe that for a second. I believe this example is meant to illustrate that he did exactly as he said he would in the memories - he used his position to try and lessen what he could not prevent. Getting himself killed would not help the students, and would doom the hope of defeating Voldemort.

I wonder too Cindy it is sad to think in her heart Lily never forgave Snape but it is hard for us to know. :sigh:



We know he didn't. He had Neville, Ginny, and Luna dead to rights for stealing from his office. Instead of letting the Carrows take care of it, or doing something vile himself, he sent them to the Forest with Hagrid, which Harry at the time attributed to stupidity. I don't believe that for a second. I believe this example is meant to illustrate that he did exactly as he said he would in the memories - he used his position to try and lessen what he could not prevent. Getting himself killed would not help the students, and would doom the hope of defeating Voldemort.


Yes exactly. Snape had the perfect opportunity to dole out some harsh punishment but he did not and he could not help what the others did. Snape as a spy had to keep his emotions in at all time or the plan would have failed.

Snape protected the students and Harry, but was anyone bothered by the fact that the ONLY reason he protected Harry was because he loved Lily. He didn't really care about Harry himself.

I wonder if Dumbeldore told them at was Snape who suggested they go in hiding. I think Lily would have guessed it was him. I don't know how she would have felt about it though. Am I the only one who thought that if she had tried harder with him he wouldn't have been a death eater. I knew she knew that he loved her but since he was never able to say it, she ignored it.

And do you think Snape never told her he loved her because. SHe was a muggleborn or because he thought she wouldn't love him back or was it because he just can't say anything about his feelings.

i was just like wow... i mean i think many many people have thought of this(including me), but for it to actually be true is just sort of weird. :P

I just really wished their actions were different, especially Severus's towards Lily, it would of been different if he actually listened to her when she asked him to stop hanging out with future Death Eaters.Harry's impression was that he was too blissfully happy at hearing Lily refer to James as a "toerag" to hear her thoughts on his future-Death Eater friends. :lol:

This is somewhat off-topic for this thread, but Snape clearly tells Dumbledore that he has "lately" only watched die those who he could not save. In the first chapter of DH, he watched Professor Burbage die because he couldn't save her. He'd have been killed himself, if he had tried, and he could not have completed the task set for him by Dumbledore. I see his allowing torture of students at Hogwarts in a similar light. He'd have been removed as Headmaster, possibly killed, if he had tried to ban it, and he could not have completed the task set for him by Dumbledore. Perhaps Lily would not have understood that. However, if she could not, it's very lucky for the wizarding world that Snape was left with the task and not Lily.

Snape protected the students and Harry, but was anyone bothered by the fact that the ONLY reason he protected Harry was because he loved Lily. He didn't really care about Harry himself.He didn't like Harry, but my personal opinion is that he did care about him.

Mmmm, I feel horrible for Snape now that everything's been revealed... :sad:

I'm just so happy it turned out this way. The Prince's Tale is going to be my favourite chapter in the entire series - the relationship between Snape and Lily is written so beautifully :love: Snape wasn't just some gothic hero, remorsing his lost love - he does things about it, and seventeen years later, he managed to turn his character completely around, from being a somewhat-disgusting person who would choose to have the woman he loved over her husband and child, to protecting that child in all circumstances and defending him when Dumbledore wanted Harry to die like a pig for slaughter. Snape proved he truly was the hero. :agree: He was Lily's man through and through.

He didn't like Harry, but my personal opinion is that he did care about him.[/QUOTE]

I don't know to me it seemed like when DD asked Snape so you came to care for the boy after all. Snape said care for him ( with the him emphasized) and produced his patronus ( the same as Lily's) implying that it wasn't for him ( Harry ) but for Lily. I would've like it better if he hadn't said that, but I guess he wouldn't be Snape afterall.

I'm just so happy it turned out this way. The Prince's Tale is going to be my favourite chapter in the entire series - the relationship between Snape and Lily is written so beautifully :love: Snape wasn't just some gothic hero, remorsing his lost love - he does things about it, and seventeen years later, he managed to turn his character completely around, from being a somewhat-disgusting person who would choose to have the woman he loved over her husband and child, to protecting that child in all circumstances and defending him when Dumbledore wanted Harry to die like a pig for slaughter. Snape proved he truly was the hero. :agree: He was Lily's man through and through.

I missed this when did DD wanted Harry to die like a pig for slaughter??? Snape ONLY assumed.

The entire Princes Tale chapter made me cry.. it was so sad. His character has been kept in th dark quite alot, we have never really known what to expect and we didnt really know much about him. I think the Snape/Lily twist was really good because it explains alot but was really surprising too!

Im glad the truth managed to find its way out in the end.

I'm just so happy it turned out this way. The Prince's Tale is going to be my favourite chapter in the entire series - the relationship between Snape and Lily is written so beautifully :love: Snape wasn't just some gothic hero, remorsing his lost love - he does things about it, and seventeen years later, he managed to turn his character completely around, from being a somewhat-disgusting person who would choose to have the woman he loved over her husband and child, to protecting that child in all circumstances and defending him when Dumbledore wanted Harry to die like a pig for slaughter. Snape proved he truly was the hero. :agree: He was Lily's man through and through.

DD didn't want Harry to die like a pig for slaughter, did I miss that??

Snape only assumed this.

I think Snape cared very much for Harry but never wanted to admit it. He questions Dumbledore extensively about what they are doing and is apalled to find out the plan Dumbledore has had in store. If Snape cared nothing for Harry there would have been no emotion. Of course Snape reminds Dumbledore the motivating reason by casting the doe patronus but if you notice he never actually answers Dumbledore about Harry and I found that telling.

Harry's impression was that he was too blissfully happy at hearing Lily refer to James as a "toerag" to hear her thoughts on his future-Death Eater friends. :lol:

This is somewhat off-topic for this thread, but Snape clearly tells Dumbledore that he has "lately" only watched die those who he could not save. In the first chapter of DH, he watched Professor Burbage die because he couldn't save her. He'd have been killed himself, if he had tried, and he could not have completed the task set for him by Dumbledore. I see his allowing torture of students at Hogwarts in a similar light. He'd have been removed as Headmaster, possibly killed, if he had tried to ban it, and he could not have completed the task set for him by Dumbledore. Perhaps Lily would not have understood that. However, if she could not, it's very lucky for the wizarding world that Snape was left with the task and not Lily.

He didn't like Harry, but my personal opinion is that he did care about him.

Yes he wouldn't remove it because he is a double agent but I don't think he would do it directly to someone who doesn't deserve it at all (torture I mean after a certain point). I don't Lily would understand that either about him having to let it continue, and yes there is a difference in liking and caring. He can save Harry's life but not like him an oodle.

They were toerags weren't they? Haha

it kind of freaked me out to know that snape very well could have ended up being harry's father. that was weird.

I thought it was made clear that Lily and Snape were platonic friends. (Personally, that was the part that surprised me, I thought Snape had fallen in love with her.)

I want to raise a question: so did Snape actually hate Harry? I have that impression now. Snape made it clear in the "always" scene (which will always bring tears to my eyes) that he did it for Lily, not Harry, thus why he showed Dumbledore his Patronus. Imagine how hard it must have been for Snape, seeing the boy with his mother, the woman he loved since childhood, eyes but the rest of him looking and acting (in his view, at least) like his father, a man he would always hate.

When Snape lay dying, with Harry beside him, he gave out his memory.

He said "Look at me". Was that -- look at my memories, look at my life, look at me, look at who I am, look at all of my life, how I have been Dumbledore's man, at his side, all this time.

Or was it "Look at me" so that I can see Lily's eyes once more before I die?

I think it was a bit of both, really....I don't really have the words to try to put across just what he must have gone through for so long, keeping it to himself.

I think Snape cared very much for Harry but never wanted to admit it. He questions Dumbledore extensively about what they are doing and is apalled to find out the plan Dumbledore has had in store. If Snape cared nothing for Harry there would have been no emotion. Of course Snape reminds Dumbledore the motivating reason by casting the doe patronus but if you notice he never actually answers Dumbledore about Harry and I found that telling.

I just thought that he wanted to protect Harry because he's Lily's son (IMO it was still selfish)

Off/topic as far as DD, I think we all should reread, he didn't want Harry to die . He wanted to make Snape believe that Harry needed to die. I think DDD knew that Harry had a good chance of not dying if he faced death (GOF gleam of triumph in DD eyes).

I think that the chapter with all of Snape's memories was easily the best and most well written chapter in the book, I was in tears by the end of it. It's just so heart wrenching to know that Snape had been pining over Lily since childhood and essentially ruined it all in his worst memory, thus leaving him to make it up to her for the rest of his life. I always had faith that Snape was truly not as bad as he seemed and I am very happy that that ended up truly being on Dumbledore's side. I always agreed with Snape completely when he was angry with Dumbledore about dragging Harry along for 17 years just so he could die, and with that reaction it showed to me that Snape really did care for Harry, even if it was only because he was Lily's son. I have to say though, the idea that Snape was in love with Lily had always come up in possible twists, but it was never one that really stood out in my mind, I liked it a lot.

The one thing I never really understood though, and it may very well be obvious, was why was it so important that Harry had Lily's eyes? Was it because that was the reason Snape protected him all those years?

And I was honestly very depressed when Voldemort killed Snape. And that was even before we find out about his full past. I just didn't think it was necessary and I was really upset about that.