References to WWII

What was quite interesting was the cult of personality that Dumbledore came close to starting.

Honestly, it never crossed my mind and I'm from Belgium. I just felt like I was in a different world. Unlike the other books, I always had a Muggle feeling through out the books, but not during the seventh one.

Maybe it's because I'm German, or maybe it's because I'm utterly humourless when it comes to these sorts of allegories.

I couldn't help but feel that the obvious references to National Socialism were a little bit over done. I felt rather uncomfortable whenever another reference came up. Oh and Grindelwald and Gregorovitch just had to be German, didn't they?

How did everyone else feel? Maybe I need to lighten up.

I got the impression that JKR was actually trying to draw a connection between Grindelwald's mischief and World War II. (Grindelwald fell in 1945, after all.) That wizarding history and Muggle history occasionally collide in big ways, and that Voldemort rampaging through Britain like an enraged dragon was not the first time.

I hardly think that's anti-German. I think it'd be more mature of you if you didn't take offense at this kind of stuff. Not to be offensive, I mean--but if references to an obvious dark time in your country's/nationality's history offend you when they're not anywhere close to being against the country/nationality itself, well, I can't say I can really sympathize, as it strikes me as unreasonable.

Voldemort reminded me of Stalin more than Hitler, actually, you know, in the sense that he kept himself hidden. Hitler went out and did speeches and stuff, Stalin, well, he wasn't very good at public speaking, and he was a very...great, I forgot the term...behind the scenes kind of guy? Voldemort did the same. No one ever saw him. He was there, but...he never came out.

Perhaps Gregorovitch is a typical German name, but from its mention in GoF, connected to Krum the Bulgarian, I took it as Russian, or Slavic at least. Further, most nations have something dark in their pasts, which also matches up to the evil behavior in DH, and which some would prefer to forget about. Many U.S. citizens would prefer to forget how the Native Americans, or slaves or their descendants, or even members of unpopular political groups, of those lands were treated. They don't want it taught in schools either. But the lesson of why it was wrong cannot be learned if it is forgotten. Unfortunately, some would prefer not to learn the lesson. (I am speaking of anyone here.)

I think JKR was trying to allude to fascism and totalitarianism as both a past and present problem. The way the people were manipulated and controlled by the Ministry and Voldemort has echos in the past, and in the present. We certainly hear many of the slogans or "arguments" used by various incarnations of the Ministry quite frequently. The reason they continue to be employed is that they clearly persuade people who are frightened, and offer cover to those who seek their own advantage. As they always have done. It doesn't trivialize a subject to suggest it remains a danger to us, particularly when it clearly does.

It is also worth recognizing that Wizard society seems quite a bit behind much of contemperary Muggle society with regards to a respect for Justice. This seems to have been the case in the recent past as well, with both Barty Crouch and Fudge throwing people into Azkaban without a trial. (Actually, clearly some contemporary muggles have no problem with such behavior, while others have shared Harry's reaction.) That Voldemort should rise is as Dumbledore would say, wizards paying the price for their sins against Justice, and from not bothering to understand the lessons of history.

I actually thought it was very clever... I understand how it could be a little uncomfortable for a German, but it was partly that that made it so interesting - of course the Muggle world would mirror the Wizarding world, the reasons would just be interpreted through a filter for them.

Perhaps Gregorovitch is a typical German name
It's not.

I took it as Russian, or Slavic at least.
Russians are Slavs.

Many U.S. citizens would prefer to forget how the Native Americans, or slaves or their descendants, or even members of unpopular political groups, of those lands were treated. They don't want it taught in schools either.
And yet, it is taught in schools. The irony.

I was born five years after the war ended. This was the biggest conflict of all time and the allies came close to losing the war. Ten MILLION Russians, six MILLION Jews, five MILLION Poles were killed! On and on...J K Rowling's parents were in that war, and you can bet she heard countless stories at home and at school, just as I did. The effect on her parents was probably enormous. Everyone in the British Isles knew someone killed or injured. Many writers have "let off steam" in this manner. Many with considerably less skill and tact than J K Rowling! If this is becomes a moral lesson for future generations less aware than we are of Fascist/Nazi history, it may be a good thing!

I think Ms. Rowling actually stated that she was symbolizing WWII. I also agree that you see many different regimes in it. For myself, when I read the motto, "For the greater Good" I automatically thought "evil". It actually took me a while to fully understand why I had such a negative reaction to those words. Honestly, I still can't think of anything nice to say about Dumbledore after reading that motto. It has completely blackened his character for me. The basis of this motto is that you disreguard the individual for the good of the whole. It is the basis for any socialist regime not just Hitler. It is the basis of oppression and an excuse for bad behavior. I have never lived through any genocide and the cold war was near its end when I was born, and still those words give me chills.

On one hand, it did make me uncomfortable because it made me wonder a bit whether it doesn't undermine the horrors of the Holocaust, actually. Also, artistically speaking, she could've thought up something more creative and better suited to a fantasy, but I guess this was her whole plan and thesis, so to speak. But on the other hand, the ties between the wizarding world and our world that were created by her taking directly out of history were clever and,now that I'm thinking it over, do give the books an interesting extra touch of reality. Perhaps it can be the first step in educating young readers and future generations about racism and what it leads to. Don't take offense at this, but I don't think Germans have a right to be offended. When I read the book "Germans are bad" or whatever did not cross my mind. WWII is obviously a terrible period in world history, and frankly Rowling's story did not come close to the atrocities that were commited in reality. I don't think they can be glossed over or overlooked now or ever.

Also, since JK Rowling decided to strive for a story based on our reality in her novels, as opposed to creating something of her own and maybe better suited ot a fantasy world, I think that she should've gone the whole way and been even more realistic in her approach. In the wizarding world everything became "well". Did it and does it work that way in real life? Can it? NO. Again, this made me uncomfortable because of the political affiliations of Rowling herself and other writers and entertainers, especially due to the fact that the world right now is very similar to what it was in the years before WWII.

when I read the motto, "For the greater Good" I automatically thought "evil".

The greater good is always cited by leaders to justify everything from illegal wiretaps to seatbelt laws. Not evil, just politics.

The greater good is always cited by leaders to justify everything from illegal wiretaps to seatbelt laws. Not evil, just politics.
:no: I disagree, the 'greater good' used as a justification for any restriction of freedoms previously permitted can be very easily peverted into something evil.

(As for seatbelt laws I disagree with the compulsion there too but IMO anyone stupid enough not to belt up deserves all they get regardless.)

I didn't like it as well. It was too obvious. It was like - woman, don't you have your own imagination?
I mean, perhaps it's a sign of innocence or something - but what's happening at the ministry is more or less 1:1 what had happened in Nazi-Germany, just over a much larger period of time.

It was absolutely unrealistic that in a few month someone like Voldemort could take power and use the entire administration as a machinery of mass murder. It took more subtlety in Germany - which probably made it even worse.

Anyway, I wasn't uncomfortable because there had been references, but because it was so extremely blunt and unimaginative.

:no: I disagree, the 'greater good' used as a justification for any restriction of freedoms previously permitted can be very easily peverted into something evil.

It can be used for things that are to the detriment of society (non-sentient things like laws can't be evil) but it's not necessarily so as implied in the original post.

The Muggleborn trials were horrible. I wanted to tear Umbridge to pieces. Reminded me a lot of the terrible treatment of the Jews and the camps. And the Magic is Might statue, a lot like the Aryan race ideals. Rowling said something about how she based Voldemort and the Death Eaters on the Nazis. Even the changes of the Ministers for Magic. I don't know my history to well to be honest but I think that both the Americans and British had changes of PM/President during WW2. It obviously intentional and absolutely horrible to read.

I didn't like it as well. It was too obvious. It was like - woman, don't you have your own imagination?
I mean, perhaps it's a sign of innocence or something - but what's happening at the ministry is more or less 1:1 what had happened in Nazi-Germany, just over a much larger period of time.

It was absolutely unrealistic that in a few month someone like Voldemort could take power and use the entire administration as a machinery of mass murder. It took more subtlety in Germany - which probably made it even worse.

Let's not forget that in Germany, neither side had magic. Magic quite radically changes how things are done, yes? Hitler never had the ability to quite literally brainwash people with the flick of a stick, and then have the assassinate whoever he wanted. The Imperius Curse by itself makes the process of taking over an entire administration easier.

I hope you people don't hate me for this, but i liked it.Gregorivitch is not even a bad person, just a guy who made mistakes.And no where in the book did it say he, or Grindelwald was german.Actually,Grindelwald is a place in Switzerland, so i think it's more likely that he is Swiss (i don't really know how to spell Swiss,Correct me if i'm wrong).

Nazi Germany and the Fascism of Italy and Spain of the WW II era has always been held up of an example of how cultures with potentially strong democratic values can be turned into totalitarian states. The Nazis are the most obvious b\c they were they most successful (until they overreached and were defeated).

But there have been other totalitarian states (Soviet Union, Moaist China, Cuba, etc.), but few were as effective as the Nazi's in getting a well educated and knowledgable population in going along with the destruction of human freedom and crimes against humanity. Only the racist institution of slavery in the South comes close in the last few centuries.

So, yes it was a little obvious, but that is part of JKR's strength. She looks at contemporary social concerns throught the prism of the wizarding world she created.

But the real power of the HP series is in the characters and the universality of them. Everyone knows a "Hermione", "Ron","Neville", or "Luna". And through these characters she studies how they would react to the questions of Good and Evil and how you find the courage to deal with it. You can't find a more universally accepted symbol of evil than the Nazis and Fascism. If she tried to use the Soviet State or Cuba as an example she might get into trouble with certain ppl who still sympathize with them and confuse the points she is trying to make. The Fascists have the distinction of being defeated (at a terrible cost) and out of power. Although,sadly, I wouldn't say they are extinct.

I hope you people don't hate me for this, but i liked it.Gregorivitch is not even a bad person, just a guy who made mistakes.And no where in the book did it say he, or Grindelwald was german.Actually,Grindelwald is a place in Switzerland, so i think it's more likely that he is Swiss (i don't really know how to spell Swiss,Correct me if i'm wrong).

What about his first name, "Gellert?" Any idea where that comes from?

EDIT: Ah, here we go (http://www.babynames.com/name/GELLERT). Hungarian...

EDIT 2: Oh, and Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gellert_Grindelwald) has the name "Grindelwald" listed as "Germanic."

I'm German as well, and I thought the references were spot-on. It's far more realistic to take something from history and just distort it slightly than to make something up from whole cloth. It's more believable.

Did the obvious references to WWII sit uncomfortably with me? Yes they did. I wasn't sure if I disliked them being there ... it just felt odd reading them. Actually it was the Nurmengrad (I think that's the name) name that had me sit back and think "How close are we going to go here?". Until that point it was easy enough to imagine it as any totalitarian or propaganda based regime. But that just focused it on Germany and World War Two. I like the idea of two worlds brushing against each other which has worked so well in the rest of the series. This just felt too close.

Did the obvious references to WWII sit uncomfortably with me? Yes they did. I wasn't sure if I disliked them being there ... it just felt odd reading them. Actually it was the Nurmengrad (I think that's the name) name that had me sit back and think "How close are we going to go here?". Until that point it was easy enough to imagine it as any totalitarian or propaganda based regime. But that just focused it on Germany and World War Two. I like the idea of two worlds brushing against each other which has worked so well in the rest of the series. This just felt too close.

Well, Grindelwald and Nurmengard (<---that's how it's spelled, by the way) were just nuggets from the wizarding world's past, and given that Grindelwald fell in 1945, I think that was intentionally a reference to World War II, but let's remember that Grindelwald's and Voldemort's regimes were different problems from different times.

Well, Grindelwald and Nurmengard (<---that's how it's spelled, by the way) were just nuggets from the wizarding world's past, and given that Grindelwald fell in 1945, I think that was intentionally a reference to World War II, but let's remember that Grindelwald's and Voldemort's regimes were different problems from different times.I suppose maybe it was more than that then. It was like Dumbledore influenced Grindelwald who built Nurmengard (thanks for the spelling) and this seemed to have an influence on Hitler and National Socialism. But then Grindelwald also had an influence on Voldemort (FOR THE GREATER GOOD substituted with MAGIC IS MIGHT). All these links seemed so obvious and in your face rather than the ones you get a chill down your spine as people tease them out here on CoS.

Even though I'm German myself, it didn't sit uncomfortably with me, no. The whole Grindelwald business was VERY close to WWII, I admit that. But so was the entire Voldemort situation. True, she could have written it all without the strong references like Nurmengard, and things like Gregorovitch's wife speaking German, but everyone would have drawn the conclusion anyway. There have been lots of really dark spots in human history so far, JKR picked the one that is probably the best known. What's wrong with that? She wanted to write about evil, and about how a group of people believes themselves better than others simply because of their birth. Well, there you go, you got your references right there already. Making them more or less obvious doesn't really make a difference in my opinion.

The WWII parallels are underestimations of the REAL horrors of the Second World War by placing them into a fantasy story like HP. I ´m angry and offended. My Opa (grandpa in German) was tortured by the GESTAPO because of political reasons.

The WWII parallels are underestimations of the REAL horrors of the Second World War by placing them into a fantasy story like HP. I ´m angry and offended. My Opa (grandpa in German) was tortured by the GESTAPO because of political reasons.

Well, I think that JKR did well to integrate this in her story. I don't think this somehow diminishes the horrors of WWII. On the contrary, it gets a lot of people thinking about these themes.

No book can ever truly convey the horror of such events. But I think JKR does well to show how fast a fast a regime can be corrupted, and how difficult it is to stand against it. She also shows the horrors of war, where people are killed by bad luck and being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

I do not know any other fictional fantasy writing (that also started as a children's book!) that contains so many well placed lectures about how people can do evil things to each other and at the same time gives so much hope to the reader.

What about his first name, "Gellert?" Any idea where that comes from?

EDIT: Ah, here we go (http://www.babynames.com/name/GELLERT). Hungarian...

EDIT 2: Oh, and Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gellert_Grindelwald) has the name "Grindelwald" listed as "Germanic."

Um......i don't mean to be rude but.........were you insulting me?:huh:

To be honest, it made me really uncomfortable.
My main fear while reading this book was Hermione, I was so afraid that they were going to kill her at some point just because she was Muggle-born, of all the dark stuff in this book, nothing effected me like “Malfoy Manor”.

i thought it was really good, becuase im jewish and my anscestors died in the holocaust, it really brought it home to me, and i'm sure many other people. i think jkr was aiming to make the books more believable, by saying "these evil things are acts that all humans do, not just magic ones. and yes, they did happen." i defiitely don't think it was over the top, i thought it was awesome how she was connecting her books to history.

but i don't see why germans are offended. german people now didn't have anything to do with the holocaust more than sixty years ago. and if a person in any part of europe who was a nazi member or someone who just stood by and watched is reading the books and feels uncofortable, then im not sorry for them.

I don't see why people are so offended by this. The outcome of DH may very well be like that of WWII but it just goes to show its human nature. Lord Voldemort and Hitler were both power hungry war mongerers who would stop at no end until their goals were met and were blindsided because of it. Muggle world or wizarding world, it makes no difference; evil dictators will meet their end and most of the time deservedly so.

maybe i'm just too young, or too dumb, too have recognised anything about WWII...

but i don't see why germans are offended. german people now didn't have anything to do with the holocaust more than sixty years ago. and if a person in any part of europe who was a nazi member or someone who just stood by and watched is reading the books and feels uncofortable, then im not sorry for them.

Most of the Germans here are not offended because they feel guilty but because the the Third Reich is used as the epitome of evil ad nauseam. By doing so and trivialising it in literature and film it loses a lot of its unique horror and I do not think that whatever the Death Eaters did measured up to what the Nazis had done. There are more recent examples of institutionalised genocide, e.g. in the Kosovo but no, it has to be the Third Reich again.

Most of the Germans here are not offended because they feel guilty but because the the Third Reich is used as the epitome of evil ad nauseam. By doing so and trivialising it in literature and film it loses a lot of its unique horror and I do not think that whatever the Death Eaters did measured up to what the Nazis had done. There are more recent examples of institutionalised genocide, e.g. in the Kosovo but no, it has to be the Third Reich again.

Well, I'm german, and I don't see it this way... after all, Harry Potter plays in Great Britain, not in Germany. I think, JKR wanted to show (among other things) how easily normal life can mutate into living hell under an evil terror regime, and that it can happen anywhere. Naturally, we can see some parallels between Nazi race ideology and the pureblood - muggleborn conflict, but that's ok.

What is really annoying for Germans is when in stories playing in our time, the evil guy (tm) is german and also probably some Nazi leftover.

Most of the Germans here are not offended because they feel guilty but because the the Third Reich is used as the epitome of evil ad nauseam. By doing so and trivialising it in literature and film it loses a lot of its unique horror and I do not think that whatever the Death Eaters did measured up to what the Nazis had done. There are more recent examples of institutionalised genocide, e.g. in the Kosovo but no, it has to be the Third Reich again.
Yes there certainly are more recent examples to draw on but none are as historically well known as the events of WW2. I feel that's why there are people that think there are "obvious referances", not so much because they are but because the historical prominence of the events of WW2 brings them to mind whenever anyone in literature, not just Jo, describes a totaliterian regime.

I for one thought that the themes of World War 2 and racial superiority were very apparent in this novel, and applaud JKR for expanding on some of the ideas established in The Chamber Of Secrets. As for Grindelwald being a represenation of Hitler, I do not believe this to be the case. For one thing, merely being German and being thwarted in 1945 dosen't constitute an immediate parallel with Hitler (although the striking similarity between the names Nurmengard and Nuremberg do give support to this opinion). For one, Grindelwald (and Dumbledore) outlined their wish to rule over ''Muggles'', although they never mentioned a blood purity issue which is essentially the cornerstone of Vodlermort's beliefs (in a similar way to how Anti-Semitism was a defining and prominent issue for hitler and the Nazi reigime).
For all intents and purposes, the Muggle world is in many ways very seperate from the Wizarding world (as shown by the different governments), and as such Gridnelwald's aggresiveness towards Muggles is less similar to Hitler's racial policies and much more remeniscient of Hitler (and Mussolini's, and the Japanese goverment's) agressive FOREIGN policies as opposed to racial policies affecting those living in the country (in this case, wizards and witches deemed to be Mudbloods). Assuming that the Ministry is responsible for MAGICAL laws, it is far more sensible to equate Vodlermot's INTERNAL racial polcies with that of Adolf Hitler (whose Nuremberg Laws and Final Solution came to affect Jews (and other groups) in all GERMAN OCCUPIED territory - it's not as if the German's went to somehwere else like America, roudned up Jews and shipped them of to Poland).

Taking into account what I have just said, it is also quite a stretch to equate Deathly Hallows to an actual allegory, more like JKR drew inspiration from past totalitarian reigimes when writing about Grindelwald and Voldermort, with Voldermort's specific blood purity obsession being remeniscient of the Nazi's only because they are the only government in history to be as obsessed and as commited to racial cleansing as they were. THIS BOOK IS NOT AN ALLEGORY. And for the lvoe of God, when talking about National Socialism, don't shorten it to Socialism, the former is a right wing political ideology bereft of much ''socialism'' (indeed the inclusion of sucha term came to be a tool for gatehring the support of the working classes more than an indication of belief), whilst the latter is a Marxist ideology - Marx's political views were certainly not synnonymus with that of the Nazi party. I know it might be an innocent mistake, but if you want to write ''National Socialism'', don't shorten it to just ''Socialism'' or you end up with a pretty different meaning. And while we're on the point, Voldermort's reigime was not based purely on Nazism/National Socialsm, the only obvious similarity is the racial doctorine, the rest of Vodlermot's ideology isn't explored.

For my personal opinion, I thought the touches such as ''Magic Is Might'' (and that statue of Wizard's using Muggle corpses and a throne), the Snatchers, the use of the word ''Undesirable'', the Deathly Hallows symbol controversy, and also the Potterwatch resistance radio show, Neville/Luna/Ginny's small time rebellion and the press censorship worked really well in creating a depressive, war like atmosphere.

There are more recent examples of institutionalised genocide, e.g. in the Kosovo but no, it has to be the Third Reich again.
Please tell me about this genocide in Kosovo... I thought it was merely Serbs being evicted out of their homes and having their churches and cemeteries razed. I had no idea that they started killing them now as well.

I am not sure what I feel, but they were definitely not comfortable thoughts. I did not like the name of the prison for one.

Hey,

I don't know how many other people have studied the Holocaust, but if you have and know at least a little about it you could see sooo many similarities at times in the book. For starters, the whole way muggle-borns had to prove a wizarding relative, this is exactly like what Hitler did when he made all of Germany turn in family trees at least dating back to grandparents. Another, more smaller and most likely unintentional one, was the saying "Magic is Power" or thats what I think it is I'm not looking at the book now, is strikingly similar to that of the quote on the gates to Auschwitz, a deathcamp in Germany, which said "Work is Freedom". One that really caught my eye though was that of The Elder Wand being so close to that of the legend of the Spear of Destiny(the wand was also called the Wand of Destiny). The wand in the book was said to have been passed down through the ages from wizard to wizard through means of battle. Well. legend has it that the Spear of Destiny was the spear that pierced Jesus while on the cross. This spear is said to have gone down being in possesion of which ever great ruler was around at the time, example Napoleon, and at the time of WWII was in possesion of Hitler, who was defeated then the Spear was said to have been taken by the United States army. Now if Jo had known any of this, I am not sure, but if she did she could have been making a comparison to Hitler through Voldemort. I thought this was all very interesting.

...
Taking into account what I have just said, it is also quite a stretch to equate Deathly Hallows to an actual allegory, more like JKR drew inspiration from past totalitarian reigimes when writing about Grindelwald and Voldermort, with Voldermort's specific blood purity obsession being remeniscient of the Nazi's only because they are the only government in history to be as obsessed and as commited to racial cleansing as they were. THIS BOOK IS NOT AN ALLEGORY.

Thank God, somebody finally made a point worth reading. First of all, I think it's extremely important to note that JKR is NOT trying to make a political statement with this novel. From reading interview transcripts with her to simply reading the books, I severely doubt that by including some of the themes in discussion she intends to sway the minds of her readers. She is so caught up in the fantastic world she has created to instill elements of propaganda into her writing (or at least, I would hope she would not). I would remind you that the Harry Potter series is not written solely for the older audience. it's also loved by many younger readers with much less developed opinions and skills when it comes to global politics, both past and present. WIth that in mind, I am quite confident that a smart writer like JKR would be aware of the impact of her words on such an audience, and would surely not attempt to sway the minds of her younger readers with political dialogue. Such an act would be cruel, in its abuse of young, trusting minds, but also in the misuse of a wonderful artform.

With that in mind, I believe quite firmly that while JKR may have drawn upon historical events as INSPIRATION for the events in the novel, and perhaps given a nod or two to writers that have contributed significantly to their field (Magic is Might, anyone?), there is no direct connection to historical events, and none of the 'trivializing' of the Holocaust and past atrocities, as some contributors would suggest. In recreating the events in the book, it is entirely reasonable that JKR draw upon historical material for inspiration in generating the atmosphere that she would like her readers to experience. This does not 'trivialize' the actual events; if anything it would make readers think, research, and eventually LEARN about the historical events used, which as anyone who honestly cares about the preservation of historical awareness knows, is the best possible situation to arise. Case in point:

somerandom592: maybe i'm just too young, or too dumb, too have recognised anything about WWII...

Even more significantly:

Onyma: Please tell me about this genocide in Kosovo... I thought it was merely Serbs being evicted out of their homes and having their churches and cemeteries razed. I had no idea that they started killing them now as well.

Would these readers have been driven to learn anything about the Holocaust, or to other WWII-era events, without this novel?

Please tell me about this genocide in Kosovo... I thought it was merely Serbs being evicted out of their homes and having their churches and cemeteries razed. I had no idea that they started killing them now as well.

UK Prime Minister Tony Blair Friday 14 May 1999 wrote in an article published by the BBC[21]that "It is no exaggeration to say what is happening in Kosovo is racial genocide. No exaggeration to brand the behaviour of Milosevic's forces as evil. It is something we had hoped we would never experience again in Europe. Thousands murdered. One hundred thousand men missing. Hundreds of thousands of people forced to flee their homes and their country, robbed of anything of value at gun-point."

Genocide and "racial cleanings" weren't something the Germans invented nor did it end with WWII. Using references to Nazi crimes in literature repeatedly does not emphasise the horrors but takes away from them. Seeing it in HP left me with a stale aftertaste.

When i was reading DH it was obvious there was a connection to WWII, i think that Jo wanted to make clear how horrible that period was, And i agree with Rotsi about those characters being German, but didn't really bugged me i am very far from the countries that were involved (i'm from Argentina)

Using references to the Nazi crimes repeatedly in literature does not emphasise the horrors but takes away from them. Seeing it in HP left me with a stale aftertaste.That's the point I was trying to bring across earlier as well. I have no issues with being German and then reading about WWII references, especially not since this period of time actually still is very present in Germany anyway. I do also believe that we shouldn't forget about it and I see why people are often refer to it - speaking of horrible things happened it was one of the major events of the twentieth century.
But I do believe that its overuse in literature and movies is neither appropriate in many cases - when it is used for some cruel effects in the story only - nor does it help to keep a point of view on what happened in history. Like Madron said it takes away from the horror. It definitely does for me. While I do believe that JK actually included the references in a very smart way, it did sit uncomfortable with me only because it is used so often.

For me, the WWII similarities didn't take away from the seriousness of the war in Deathly Hallows at all, it actualy made it more real and more terrifying and more intense. Neither did I come away from Deathly Hallows thinking that the atrocities of WWII were in any way lesser or easier to stomach or had any of their horror taken away. Just thinking about Hitler and the Nazi regime, the whole ideology and the horrors that spawned from it evoke such an intense reaction in me... it is the ultimate reference for the evils man can do to fellow man.

Of course there are countless other events in history and the present that are as (or close to as) atrocious as the Holocaust. But there have been so many available references for the atrocities of the Nazi Regime, from education to entertainment, that they permeate a lot of societies, and you'd have to either be oblivious or live somwhere where it was just not talked about or referenced at all to not know at least a little about the Holocaust. It is, IMO, the most accesible and recognizable example of the evil men are capable of.

I'd bet most people here could draw a stick figure of Hitler and a recognize a Swastika... how many can even name a leader of a current atrocity or draw a picture of them (other than, perhaps, Osama Bin laden)? Would it have worked for JKR to intentionally draw a similarity between the atrocities in Kosovo... how many across the globe would recognize it? Honestly, even if she had a different name for the Nurmengard prison, it would have been impossible for JKR to keep her story line about the Pure-Blooded ideology and Magic is Might the same and NOT have people notice similarities between it and the ideology of Hitler and the Nazis. The whole story would have had to change in order to avoid people making those connections on their own... as it is, it would have happened whether JKR intended us to make them or not...

For me, the WWII similarities didn't take away from the seriousness of the war in Deathly Hallows at all, it actualy made it more real and more terrifying and more intense. Neither did I come away from Deathly Hallows thinking that the atrocities of WWII were in any way lesser or easier to stomach or had any of their horror taken away. Just thinking about Hitler and the Nazi regime, the whole ideology and the horrors that spawned from it evoke such an intense reaction in me... it is the ultimate reference for the evils man can do to fellow man. Actually I agree here, but my feeling is that the quantity of references to WWII and the holocaust takes away the horror from the real events which have happened. The novel might getting better, but then again I feel its not appropriate to simlply 'use' these references. Getting used as the 'ultimate reference' over and over again in literature and movies does neither destroy my reading pleasure nor my point of view on the historical events. But it does sit uncomfortable with me.

I believe, though, that JK did use the references in a quite adequate way. But still it didn't work for me, because those are used so often.

No offence, but I do think you need to lighten up a bit. There were similarites, but nothing that big. All big bad guys seem to be modeled after Hitler in a way. And Gergorvitch wasn't even bad, and Grindelwald helped Harry, even if he had been evil.

People were thinking just the same when LOTR came out (some of them still think this now). Then Tolkien said he "cordially disliked alegory" and that LOTR didnt have any influences in WW one or two. This was hard to believe because Tolkien participated in WW I as a soldier, and the progress of writing LOTR was going all throung the time of WW II.

Then I am thinking. Why people ALWAYS try to find some references to real life when reading fantasy. Why cant they just enjoy the book and forget the cruel reality at least for a short time.

Harry Potter is a great book and comparing it to WW II is awful. And Gregorovitch and Grindewald feel more like Russian than German...

Oh, Deathly Hallows is not an allegory. It's more or less a 1:1 copy of many of the things the Nazis had introduced, just accelerated and slightly adapted.

The problem with WWII-references is, as Madron and gertie have already pointed out, is that they have been nauseatically overused. It's as if there hadn't been anything else that had been horrible throughout history.

Yes, for heaven's sake, it has been horrible. But it's 60 years ago and we have to move on. Not forget, no. Never forget - but leave it to the past.

If you look at the bestseller lists both in fiction and in non-fiction, most books with a historical reference have one with WWII. It's like nothing else worth remembering had ever happened. And now, HP had to use it, too.

It's sickening. And it ultimately feels like there's some sort of collective negative cult going on around it. People will start forgetting the actual events because they have been fictionalized and used and re-used on every occasion. And that's what's bothering me.

I dont agree with you, rareb. First of all, many bestseller books are NOT a WW II allegory or 1:1 copy.
Second, I find it insulting when you say that Harry Potter is 1:1 copy or adaptation of Nazi's works. The book that brought a lot of joy and nice thoughts to millions of peoples is different to Nazi's in its essence.

UK Prime Minister Tony Blair Friday 14 May 1999 wrote in an article published by the BBC[21]that "It is no exaggeration to say what is happening in Kosovo is racial genocide. No exaggeration to brand the behaviour of Milosevic's forces as evil. It is something we had hoped we would never experience again in Europe. Thousands murdered. One hundred thousand men missing. Hundreds of thousands of people forced to flee their homes and their country, robbed of anything of value at gun-point."
Indeed? And what would Mr. Blair call the bombing of Serbia that began two months before this grand statement?

UK Prime Minister Tony Blair Friday 14 May 1999 wrote in an article published by the BBC[21]that "It is no exaggeration to say what is happening in Kosovo is racial genocide. No exaggeration to brand the behaviour of Milosevic's forces as evil. It is something we had hoped we would never experience again in Europe. Thousands murdered. One hundred thousand men missing. Hundreds of thousands of people forced to flee their homes and their country, robbed of anything of value at gun-point."
Indeed? And what would Mr. Blair call the bombing of Serbia that began two months before this grand statement?

Alas, you'll have to wait till the DoIMC reopens. This is a political question that will get this thread off topic in a second. :)

Oh, Deathly Hallows is not an allegory. It's more or less a 1:1 copy of many of the things the Nazis had introduced, just accelerated and slightly adapted.
:no: I completely disagree here, it' true that paralells are there but the same could be said for any work of fiction portraying a totalitatian regime. Have a read of 1984 and you'll see far more paralells between Deathly Hallows and that than there are with specific events and situations through WW2.

The problem with WWII-references is, as Madron and gertie have already pointed out, is that they have been nauseatically overused. It's as if there hadn't been anything else that had been horrible throughout history.
I'll agree that WW2 references have been overused but I feel they have been overused by the critics as opposed to the authors. Just because someone writes of such a regime critics seem to automatically assume they're referring to specific WW2 events. As I've said previously the paralells are drawn because the events of WW2 in Europe are so well known, even to this day.

Yes, for heaven's sake, it has been horrible. But it's 60 years ago and we have to move on. Not forget, no. Never forget - but leave it to the past.
Now that's a sentiment I agree with.

If you look at the bestseller lists both in fiction and in non-fiction, most books with a historical reference have one with WWII. It's like nothing else worth remembering had ever happened. And now, HP had to use it, too.

It's sickening. And it ultimately feels like there's some sort of collective negative cult going on around it. People will start forgetting the actual events because they have been fictionalized and used and re-used on every occasion. And that's what's bothering me.
I think you're reading more into the story than is actually there quite frankly. Just because there are commonalities doesn't make it specifically derivative.

:no: I completely disagree here, it' true that paralells are there but the same could be said for any work of fiction portraying a totalitatian regime. Have a read of 1984 and you'll see far more paralells between Deathly Hallows and that than there are with specific events and situations through WW2.

I'll agree that WW2 references have been overused but I feel they have been overused by the critics as opposed to the authors. Just because someone writes of such a regime critics seem to automatically assume they're referring to specific WW2 events. As I've said previously the paralells are drawn because the events of WW2 in Europe are so well known, even to this day.

Now that's a sentiment I agree with.

I think you're reading more into the story than is actually there quite frankly. Just because there are commonalities doesn't make it specifically derivative.Until this book it really could have been seen as a comment on any totalitarian regime. For the first six books it was mainly people looking at the books who noticed things e.g. muggles parallels to treatment of Jews but it could have been of any group really. But Deathly Hallows took it further. The name "Nurmengard" is just so close to "Nürnberg/Nuremberg" and the rounding up of the muggleborns saying they were stealing magic they show the author is using Nazi ideas rather than anything else. A comparison to 1984 would be very different to a World War Two comparison because it is another book. Personally I don't think it is an allegory it is just using things from a terrible time in human history which diminishes the impact of those events. It would be different if we could read it as a reference to the genocide in Rwanda or Kosovo because, as can be read here, there are a good lot of people who have forgotten these events.

I'll agree that WW2 references have been overused but I feel they have been overused by the critics as opposed to the authors.
The critics critique what's in the text. They are not about to point out references that are not there.

Just because someone writes of such a regime critics seem to automatically assume they're referring to specific WW2 events.
Nurmengard, blood purity, the left hand salute, the corrupted ancient symbol, the Germanic dictator, the Wand associated with a Quest, the leader who does not fit his own purity standards... Yeah, this is totally about Cortes coming to Mexico.

It would be different if we could read it as a reference to the genocide in Rwanda or Kosovo because, as can be read here, there are a good lot of people who have forgotten these events.
A good many people being one person, i.e. me, who is debating the validity of calling what was and is happening in Kosovo a genocide?

Alas, you'll have to wait till the DoIMC reopens. This is a political question that will get this thread off topic in a second. :)
I have absolutely no wish to discuss politics. I am merely pointing out that people fighting against usurpation of their own country should not be considered ethnic cleansing.

It is not difficult to make WWII analogies out of any writing that involves a brutal dictator attempting to set up an autocracy. It is a theme that is common in literature and in world history, not surprising since one tends to imitate the other. The fact that elimination of enemies was based on a factor of birth is not unique to WWII, nor is the leader not meeting the criteria used for the purge. If we choose to we can make similar analogies to several well loved pieces of fiction, but the key is, this is not a political commentary or documentary, it is a work of fiction designed to entertain. I personally didn't find the series to be an overt rehashing of WWII to any large extent, nor did I find myself even thinking that Germany had anything to do with the storyline. I can see more deviations from WWII than similarities in the series and I am of a mind that in some ways people are seeing what they want to see in some of this. That is not meant to be insulting, that is human nature, but from my perspective, the story isn't as much about any particular war as it is about heroism versus vilainy. I hope this doen't come across poorly, I am by no means discounting other people's perceptions, I just wanted to point out that for everything noted as a similarity there is an equally compelling point of difference. The key point being that in these books it is a civil war, not a multi-national war. The series also focuses on a British hero conquering a British villain, not very WWII like in very many other regards as well.

Did anyone else notice that Grindewald's symbol taken from the symbol for the Deathly Hallows as a reference to the Nazi swastika coming from the cross meaning peace?

Did anyone else notice that Grindewald's symbol taken from the symbol for the Deathly Hallows as a reference to the Nazi swastika coming from the cross meaning peace?

You should really take a read through the thread before posting... and also brush up on your history of Nazi symbology. I'd explain it all, but I'm really much too tired.

oops sorry, i had only read the first three or four pages of the thread.

Don't worry. It's not possible to read all pages anyway. It's enough to read the opening post to see what the main topic is about and the last couple of pages, to see the the actual debatting is. Topics get repeated every time. :)

You should really take a read through the thread before posting... and also brush up on your history of Nazi symbology. I'd explain it all, but I'm really much too tired.
What Josh_Silver said is pretty fine and in a way he's right.

The Swatiska is originally a luck, well-being etc. symbol and in a lot of cultures seen as that. The symbol was taken by the Nazis for their purpose and later seen as sign of evilness.

The Deathly Hallows symbol, was in first a good sign like Xeno Lovegood told us and later as Grindelwald became powerhungry it was viewed as bad and a sign that you support his action. Same as the Swatiska was seens as sign that you support the Nazis.

Well the obvious references are the Muggleborn inquisition relating to the Holocaust and the Deathly Hallows symbol relating to the swastika.
These are intersting, I think Jo intended for these parts of the book to be slightly related to WWII, it helps us understand that there was an actual war going on in the books, and that England under Voldemort's ministry was much like Nazi Germany.
And Tenshi makes a great point, the Swastika was originally a symbol of good fortune and prosperity and orginated in India. The Aryans were an Indo European tribe and have descendants in India, Europe, and the Middle East. The Nazi's, under Hitler falsely claimed that Germans were the only true Aryans and that Blond hair and blue eyes were their characteristics. He also decided to use an ancient Aryan symbol for the Nazi's. This use is what gives it it's terrible meaning that we all know of today, just like Grindelwald's use of the Deathly Hallows symbol gave the evil connotation to Krum.

Hitler didn't say only Germans were Aryans, it was pretty much anyone of Northen/Western European decsent, and the blue eyes blond hair was a Nazi ideal but not criteria for being ''Aryan''.....

I wish I could remember which interview she said it in, but Rowling had implied Grindewald was supposed to be the direct cause for the WWII conflict. WWII ended in the same year that Dumbledore defeated Grindewald...obviously there's not enough evidence in the books to piece it all together, but I'm guessing that it was supposed to be implied that Hitler was Grindewald's muggle puppet or something similar to that...

EDIT: Maybe I was a little off :) I found the quotes in the Emerson-Melissa interview


ES: You don't have to answer but can you give us some backstory on him?

JKR: I'm going to tell you as much as I told someone earlier who asked me. You know Owen who won the [UK television] competition to interview me? He asked about Grindelwald [pronounced "Grindelvald" HMM...]. He said, "Is it coincidence that he died in 1945," and I said no. It amuses me to make allusions to things that were happening in the Muggle world, so my feeling would be that while there's a global Muggle war going on, there's also a global wizarding war going on.

...

MA: Do they feed each other, the Muggle and wizarding wars?

JKR: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Mmm.

The critics critique what's in the text. They are not about to point out references that are not there.
True, but they also interpret the text based on their own views.

Nurmengard, blood purity, the left hand salute, the corrupted ancient symbol, the Germanic dictator, the Wand associated with a Quest, the leader who does not fit his own purity standards...
All of which is based on interpretation of the material, it is the readers that are drawing the parallels and they could just as easily have been made about any other regime of such a nature. The parallels with WW2 Germany are there because WW2 Germany is an obvious historical example more so than Deathly Hallows is an obvious parallel.

Yeah, this is totally about Cortes coming to Mexico.
:huh: If I was familiar with that piece of history we could make a comparison, as it is I am not. Would you care to enlighten us?

A good many people being one person, i.e. me, who is debating the validity of calling what was and is happening in Kosovo a genocide?
Again I'm not as well informed about that specific situation, if you'd like to sum it up via owl I'd be interested to hear about it but as the admins have said this isn't a thread for political discussions, rather about how such regimes are represented and paralleled in Deathly Hallows.

I have absolutely no wish to discuss politics. I am merely pointing out that people fighting against usurpation of their own country should not be considered ethnic cleansing.
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist; it's another common element of history. If you'd like to clarify the situation to which you're referring feel free to send me an owl about it. I really don't know enough about that situation to make an informed comment.

It is not difficult to make WWII analogies out of any writing that involves a brutal dictator attempting to set up an autocracy. It is a theme that is common in literature and in world history, not surprising since one tends to imitate the other. The fact that elimination of enemies was based on a factor of birth is not unique to WWII, nor is the leader not meeting the criteria used for the purge.
:agree: Indeed.

If we choose to we can make similar analogies to several well loved pieces of fiction, but the key is, this is not a political commentary or documentary, it is a work of fiction designed to entertain. I personally didn't find the series to be an overt rehashing of WWII to any large extent, nor did I find myself even thinking that Germany had anything to do with the storyline. I can see more deviations from WWII than similarities in the series and I am of a mind that in some ways people are seeing what they want to see in some of this. That is not meant to be insulting, that is human nature, but from my perspective, the story isn't as much about any particular war as it is about heroism versus vilainy. I hope this doen't come across poorly, I am by no means discounting other people's perceptions, I just wanted to point out that for everything noted as a similarity there is an equally compelling point of difference. The key point being that in these books it is a civil war, not a multi-national war. The series also focuses on a British hero conquering a British villain, not very WWII like in very many other regards as well.
My point exactly, the story is British and European in its setting so it isn't out of the question that the characters are of such ethnic background either.

:huh: If I was familiar with that piece of history we could make a comparison, as it is I am not. Would you care to enlighten us?
Cortés killed a lot of Aztecs.

I don't know if this has been mentioned as it is such a long thread, I'm starting to lose track, but 1) the worst character in the whole series is English, 2) the film version of OotP shows just how easily other nations can slide into totalitarianism/blood purity even more clearly than the book did, and 3) while the references is there, I think it is quite clear that JKR is using them as an example to us all of what can happen, rather than criticising Germans. Afterall, even Dumbledore was nearly sucked in to Grindlewald's message!

I also think Krum gives a wonderful indication of the modern perspective - it is he, as a person whose family was affected, who is most aware and most offended by Xeno Lovegood's use of the symbol, whereas the British have all forgotten the issue. I think in the real world it is often Germans who lead the way in ensuring that we all remember the dangers of fascism and learn from history.

To people who live rather further away from Germany, Gregorovitch sounds more generally Eastern European as a name, so I and many other readers I know presumed he was Russian, Ukrainian, Croatian or something like that. I see from several posts that our European members view it as a more Germanic name, which was interesting to find out. When I next re-read the book I will be curious to see if that changes how I respond to that.

It is not difficult to make WWII analogies out of any writing that involves a brutal dictator attempting to set up an autocracy. It is a theme that is common in literature and in world history, not surprising since one tends to imitate the other. The fact that elimination of enemies was based on a factor of birth is not unique to WWII, nor is the leader not meeting the criteria used for the purge.
I totally agree with you. I can't deny that there are analogies in the book but we can't make it the main theme and compare it so drasticaly with WWII

I thought the references were very obvious and made me feel sort of uncomfortable, like I was being taught a lesson. I especially disliked the part about the camp Grindelwald had created and then was sent to himself .

I think it was cool and a little scary that JKR made a link between our 2 worlds

Maybe it's because I'm German, or maybe it's because I'm utterly humourless when it comes to these sorts of allegories.

I couldn't help but feel that the obvious references to National Socialism were a little bit over done. I felt rather uncomfortable whenever another reference came up. Oh and Grindelwald and Gregorovitch just had to be German, didn't they?

Grindelwald is a place in Switzerland as well as the name of the dark wizard. Is it also prevalent in Germany? It is true that Durmstrang is located, at least by name, in Germany. However, Gregorovitch sounds more Slavic than Germanic to me. Also, both Slytherin and Riddle were English wizards.

That said, there is definitely an "Eastern bloc" feel to many of the darker characters you mention, not to mention Durmstrang itself. I am not sure how I would feel if I were German. I recall a German exchange student in the classroom adjacent to mine several years ago. She complained to me because her teacher, a WWII buff, was quite flippant about Hitler and Germany and about her nationality. She was quite uncomfortable talking about it in class, very unlike students in the American South who are often quite proud of their place during the American Civil War.

So maybe Rowling stepped on some toes without realizing it because she's just not aware how sensitive this issue is for some people.

Peace,
Christopher

Grindelwald is a place in Switzerland as well as the name of the dark wizard. Is it also prevalent in Germany? It is true that Durmstrang is located, at least by name, in Germany. However, Gregorovitch sounds more Slavic than Germanic to me. Also, both Slytherin and Riddle were English wizards.

Gregorovitch's wife or former landlady (is it ever said, who exactly she is?) speaks German in the book though.

Gregorovitch's wife or former landlady (is it ever said, who exactly she is?) speaks German in the book though.I know I'm picking straws here, but that dosen't rule her out of being Austrian either, am I right?

I know I'm picking straws here, but that dosen't rule her out of being Austrian either, am I right?

True. She could also be a first generation immigrant living in Argentina. :rotfl: While we're picking straws, one could now say that she did not speak a dialect but "Hochdeutsch", which neither Austrians nor Swiss generally do. But I assumed that JKR does not speak the language well enough to make these distinctions and with all the other WWII references in the books the landlady/Mrs Gregorowitch being German was the first thing that came to my mind.

I don't think Grindelwald's being German is really an issue. I'm almost sure he was, because of the various implications- but that's not really a bad thing! Jo certainly isn't doing the "germans=bad guys" thing at all. She wanted to relate that wizard war with world war II.
Gregorovitch was not a bad guy at all- infact ONLY Grindelwald was a bad guy who was also German.

Whereas Voldemort, the Malfoys, Bellatrix, etc were all British.

So I don't think race is really an issue.

I deffinately felt what others have said- seeing the "Magic is Might" stuff in the Ministry really made my skin crawl. It deffinately made the rest of the books seem so simple and safe and protected... and I had never really thought about what the world would be like if Voldy DID take over- which he basically DID. The precedural atmosphere was so SCARY! I loved it though, brought home how serious everything was and WHY that kind of prejudice is SO bad... The themes present in the other books were really realized in this one.


But I'm getting off topic. IMO the NS allusions served the story well and were not overpowering.

I know I'm picking straws here, but that dosen't rule her out of being Austrian either, am I right?
Could be, still the extent of my knowledge of German comes from watching episodes of Komissar Rex (which is almost a cult hit here in Australia thanks to SBS). My former next door neighbour, who is Hungarian, once told me that he speaks quite fluent German and many of his countrymen do too so for me just because someone speaks German doesn't necessarily make them German by default.

My former next door neighbour, who is Hungarian, once told me that he speaks quite fluent German and many of his countrymen do too so for me just because someone speaks German doesn't necessarily make them German by default.Yes, that's true. But there must be a reason that JK decided to let the woman speak German. If she wanted to bring across the impression she were from another country she had let her spoken a different language I believe. That's said I do not think the woman should be shown as German, but she is there to transport another WWII association. It does not really matter if she were Austrian or German for this matter.

Yes, that's true. But there must be a reason that JK decided to let the woman speak German. If she wanted to bring across the impression she were from another country she had let her spoken a different language I believe. That's said I do not think the woman should be shown as German, but she is there to transport another WWII association. It does not really matter if she were Austrian or German for this matter.

Absolutely. The use of another language was a means to convey to the reader that Voldemort had left England and was somewhere else. The language JKR picked was supposed to be an indicator of where he was. And I think it's unlikely that one starts speaking in a foreign language, even if one is fluent in it, when someone threatens one's life. At least I couldn't imagine speaking English or French if someone pointed a gun at me. :lol:

Perhaps Nietzsche and his "will to power" was more of a factor than Germany in general. The philosophy certainly fits. Of course, old Frederick was German.

Could be, still the extent of my knowledge of German comes from watching episodes of Komissar Rex (which is almost a cult hit here in Australia thanks to SBS). Is that the police dog that nicks all the sausage bread rolls?


Hmmm hmm and back to da topic :)

True, but they also interpret the text based on their own views.
I'm not saying personal views and biases are excluded from critiques. But it would make no sense for a reviewer to expound on his own opinions on something that is not in the text to begin with.

All of which is based on interpretation of the material, it is the readers that are drawing the parallels and they could just as easily have been made about any other regime of such a nature.
I don't believe any other regime can be correlated to Rowling's Wizarding Wars to the extent that the Third Reich can. The readers are drawing the parallels because the author alluded to them in the text; and, allusions aside, Rowling told us that there is a connection between World War II and Grindelwald's rise to power.

The parallels with WW2 Germany are there because WW2 Germany is an obvious historical example more so than Deathly Hallows is an obvious parallel.
Why does there need to be a historical example? Why does Rowling need to make her references obvious?

:huh: If I was familiar with that piece of history we could make a comparison, as it is I am not. Would you care to enlighten us?
As someone else said, Cortes killed a lot of Aztecs. I was merely referencing a war that could not be in any way specifically correlated to the Wizarding Wars.

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist;
I definitely agree with that.

Could be, still the extent of my knowledge of German comes from watching episodes of Komissar Rex (which is almost a cult hit here in Australia thanks to SBS). My former next door neighbour, who is Hungarian, once told me that he speaks quite fluent German and many of his countrymen do too so for me just because someone speaks German doesn't necessarily make them German by default.

I have to agree with that. I might be mistaken, but isn't German and germanic sounding dialects pretty common in the Eastern Europian countries? I would also point out that Durmstrang is never said to be in Germany specifically in the books and Krum actually plays for Bulgaria, doesn't he? I am just curious how much is possibly being assumed to have a German origin without actual confirmation? If the autocracy was being built in the old soviet block, wouldn't that more parrallel Stalin? I only ask because I don't think anyone is wrong, just that there may be some preconcieved thoughts interfering with objective interpretations on this issue. Does that seem reasonable to everyone, or am I possibly missing some key points in this topic?

Wow, did anyone even read my post back on page 22 and give it a thought? The only reason I am little mad is because someone said that the whole wand quest would be a direct influence from Cortes coming to America....did anyone give my theory of any thought of how Jo came up with the Elder Wand legend? Because mine is at least pretty credible and you can find books on the subject.

Wow, did anyone even read my post back on page 22 and give it a thought? The only reason I am little mad is because someone said that the whole wand quest would be a direct influence from Cortes coming to America....did anyone give my theory of any thought of how Jo came up with the Elder Wand legend? Because mine is at least pretty credible and you can find books on the subject.
I'm sorry but my thread only has 20 pages. Could you please link to the post? Thanks :)

Hey,

I don't know how many other people have studied the Holocaust, but if you have and know at least a little about it you could see sooo many similarities at times in the book. For starters, the whole way muggle-borns had to prove a wizarding relative, this is exactly like what Hitler did when he made all of Germany turn in family trees at least dating back to grandparents. Another, more smaller and most likely unintentional one, was the saying "Magic is Power" or thats what I think it is I'm not looking at the book now, is strikingly similar to that of the quote on the gates to Auschwitz, a deathcamp in Germany, which said "Work is Freedom". One that really caught my eye though was that of The Elder Wand being so close to that of the legend of the Spear of Destiny(the wand was also called the Wand of Destiny). The wand in the book was said to have been passed down through the ages from wizard to wizard through means of battle. Well. legend has it that the Spear of Destiny was the spear that pierced Jesus while on the cross. This spear is said to have gone down being in possesion of which ever great ruler was around at the time, example Napoleon, and at the time of WWII was in possesion of Hitler, who was defeated then the Spear was said to have been taken by the United States army. Now if Jo had known any of this, I am not sure, but if she did she could have been making a comparison to Hitler through Voldemort. I thought this was all very interesting.

there you go

Wow, did anyone even read my post back on page 22 and give it a thought? The only reason I am little mad is because someone said that the whole wand quest would be a direct influence from Cortes coming to America....did anyone give my theory of any thought of how Jo came up with the Elder Wand legend? Because mine is at least pretty credible and you can find books on the subject.
My reference to Cortes was sarcastic. Besides, I referenced the exact point you're making, i.e., that the Elder Wand was meant to reflect the Spear of Destiny.

Oh, sorry I didn't really read thoroughly through every post before I put up that other one. But ever sinced I learned about it the Spear has interested me and when I made the connection in the book I shot up and was like "Holy **** this is so weird!!" haha, I was like there is no way this is coincidence its just to unlikely.

Oh, sorry I didn't really read thoroughly through every post before I put up that other one. But ever sinced I learned about it the Spear has interested me and when I made the connection in the book I shot up and was like "Holy **** this is so weird!!" haha, I was like there is no way this is coincidence its just to unlikely.
Yeah, especially considering the parallel of the Hallows Quest to the one of the Grail et al and the fact that the Cloak and the Shroud are suspiciously similar artifacts. Good catch =D

Yes, thank you and I did not know that they bleeped out the C word that rhymes with wrap on here, haha.

When i first read the books - from PS infact - I made the imediate connection to NS and, of course saw the continuation throughout the series. However, when i read about LV, I always had KKK come to mind more often (until DH). I dont know why.

I didnt find the references shocking until somebody earlier in the thread said "Gridlewald had Hitler under the Imperius charm"
Originally i thought that the way Jo connected HP to the real world was a brilliant parallel, but when that person said that it made me think 'yeah, but that makes it sound like a story, like the holacaust wasnt real, and that hitler was being forced to be evil!' Which really shocked me that i hadnt thought about it in a deeper way before.

On the other hand i think that relating LV and Grindlewalds regimes in such a strong way to the nazis and anyother genocidal regime gave the books a much deeper profound meaning - it made it more than just a story and gave perspective into what was actually going on in the world. Yes, older people found it shocking because WWII is still so closely connected to them, but to younger children it is a brilliant moral to give to the books. it says "This is what happened. It was bad. Horrilbe. The characters in the books, who you love, suffer, and die (look at colin creevy), these things are real and have happened to real people too - possibly even your family - and they could happen again just as easily. Constant Vigilance!"

history is forgotten - as many people have pointed out - and I think that Jo is right to remind us that autrocities do happen, even if it may not be comfortable for us to hear it, it is not a comfortable thing.

on the german front of things, I do not believe that anybody points the finger (and if they do, they most certaintly shouldnt!). I found that having the characters with german style names and speaking german didnt point to strictly germany, as many people in the surrounding countries also speak german and have german names - Grindlewald could easily be Austrian, or Albanian, or Bulgarian, or Belgian. The blatancy doesnt prejudice me, and in a novel thats whole design is to make people aware of the prejudices around them I would hope that even if people relate grindlewald and his evil to germany, that they learn from the morals of the book and realise that it is misconceptions.

sorry, its turned into quite a huge 2 cents :)

Personally, I love references to history. Rowling uses them so much, though she tended to go for more ancient fables, but I think references to a much more recent time is equally as interesting. I didn't know about the Spear of Destiny at all though, my extraordinary lack of knowledge on religions glaringly obvious there, but that just makes it even cooler for me.

Not to mention that this does, as Lakechloe suggested, give an understanding to younger children. It puts the events of WWII into a context where they can learn to realize just what people went through during it - the turning of neighbour on neighbour, the genocide, the fear, ect. For an era of children growing up further and further away from the well-known tragedy of WWII, I think it's a good way to keep the memory alive. Not to mention that it just fits well as a story idea, creating a fictional war to feel real by basing it on a real war.

Why does everybody think that repressive regimes are always Nazi Germany in WWII?

Repressive regimes are alive and well in the world today. Just look at Cuba or North Korea, and Iraq before March 2003. Heck, the Communist Soviet Union had most of Europe under virtual slavery for nearly 50 years. Stalin killed so many people it would have made Hitler himself blush in embarrassment. Human rights abuses, a police state and propaganda like we see in Deathly Hallows are the hallmarks of any dictatorship, not just Nazi Germany.

Why does everybody think that repressive regimes are always Nazi Germany in WWII?

Repressive regimes are alive and well in the world today. Just look at Cuba or North Korea, and Iraq before March 2003. Heck, the Communist Soviet Union had most of Europe under virtual slavery for nearly 50 years. Stalin killed so many people it would have made Hitler himself blush in embarrassment. Human rights abuses, a police state and propaganda like we see in Deathly Hallows are the hallmarks of any dictatorship, not just Nazi Germany.

That's why I mentioned well-known tragedy of WWII... cause it's probably the most well-known dictatorship regime (in a worldwide war setting too, something that wasn't always present in the Soviet Union). While there are countless other repressive regimes through the ages that include genocide, they are not as often mentioned, or even known, in Western culture today. Which is probably why Nazi Germany is the one continuously brought up here. It's like - the poster child for repressive regimes.

I didn't know about the Spear of Destiny at all though, my extraordinary lack of knowledge on religions glaringly obvious there, but that just makes it even cooler for me.
The Spear of Destiny, also known by many other names, is the spear that the Roman soldier (putatively named) Longinus used to pierce Jesus while on the Cross. During World War II, while stealing other art, Hitler came upon a lance that some believe is the Spear of Destiny.

For an era of children growing up further and further away from the well-known tragedy of WWII, I think it's a good way to keep the memory alive.
Are schools incapable of doing this? The memories of World War II are not going anywhere, especially considering the number of references in modern art and media. Just look at Freedom Writers: the movie is supposed to be about kids growing up amidst gang violence, and yet, half the movie was dedicated to elegies about the Holocaust. The allusion is overused. Yes, it is important to remember history, but WWII seems to be the only event this concept is actually applied to.

Not to mention that it just fits well as a story idea, creating a fictional war to feel real by basing it on a real war.
I think it cheapened the story. But there's no sense in arguing about tastes.

Some people have questioned the speed with which Voldemort "transformed" the Ministry. But the Ministry had been at odds with itself for a long time. Pretty clearly a "pure-blood" predjudice permeated the place, as Molly ascribes Arthur's failure to advance to his defense of Muggles. Plus we have Dolores Umbridge in a high position. And the laws controlling anyone not "pure" enough seem longstanding as well. Lupin tells us in PoA he is used to such treatment.

We also know that the Ministry has the past abused its powers to put people in Azkaban without a trial. Barty Croach was expected to be the next Minister, so such behaivor must have been popular.

We also know from OotP that not only could the Ministry control much of the press, but was easily able to to convince large segments of the population of its propaganda. Mrs. Weasley turned on Hermione in GoF.

The point is that much of the wizarding world would not have been too bothered by the new policies of the Ministry, untill they were applied to themself.

Some people have questioned the speed with which Voldemort "transformed" the Ministry. But the Ministry had been at odds with itself for a long time. Pretty clearly a "pure-blood" predjudice permeated the place, as Molly ascribes Arthur's failure to advance to his defense of Muggles. Plus we have Dolores Umbridge in a high position. And the laws controlling anyone not "pure" enough seem longstanding as well. Lupin tells us in PoA he is used to such treatment.
That is a very good point.

Wait... I'm sorry, but I don't have time to look it all up... I think Grindelwald sounds German, but Gregorovich? I think it sounds more eastern-european, if anything. But I'm no name-buff. Just wondering where it said he was German and all. I can see why the German reference bothers you, though.

Wait... I'm sorry, but I don't have time to look it all up... I think Grindelwald sounds German, but Gregorovich? I think it sounds more eastern-european, if anything. But I'm no name-buff. Just wondering where it said he was German and all. I can see why the German reference bothers you, though.

There is a lot of assumption ging into the "German/Germany" references people are sighting here. Most of the durmstrang and other references are equally if not more likely to reffer to Bulgaria, Albania or other Eastern Europian places. The desire to make the story fit a WWII parrallel is what leads to that type of assumption it would seem. In actuality, there is a likely preconcieved notion at work in a lot of the "simularities" that are cited. In the end, similar conections can be made with numerous other large scale events with equal ease.

There is a lot of assumption ging into the "German/Germany" references people are sighting here.
German/Germany references are the least of it. It is one in a dozen of allusions.

The desire to make the story fit a WWII parrallel is what leads to that type of assumption it would seem.
Why would anyone have this desire, though? The references are all there - Nurmengard and its inscription, the Wand, the symbol of the Deathly Hallows, the left hand salute, Pius Thicknesse, eugenics, Voldemort's parentage... There are more that truly are applicable to most regimes of this kind, but these references are nothing if not specific.

Wait... I'm sorry, but I don't have time to look it all up... I think Grindelwald sounds German, but Gregorovich? I think it sounds more eastern-european, if anything. But I'm no name-buff. Just wondering where it said he was German and all. I can see why the German reference bothers you, though.Gregorovich definitely is a Slavic and no German name. However, the person living in his household (killed by Lord Voldemort) speaks German, what let many posters assume that he had to be either German or Austrian.

I do not believe any German feels bothered by the references to Germany, at least I didn't see any posts about this in here so far. But some, including me, feel uncomfortable with the repeated use, maybe overuse, of WWII references in literature and movies over the last six decades in general. It does not teach our children not to forget, but easily leads to underestimate the horror and what really happened in that time of history. Since JK did use them as well, we discuss whether it disturbs us or not.

Maybe it's because I'm German, or maybe it's because I'm utterly humourless when it comes to these sorts of allegories.

I couldn't help but feel that the obvious references to National Socialism were a little bit over done. I felt rather uncomfortable whenever another reference came up. Oh and Grindelwald and Gregorovitch just had to be German, didn't they?

How did everyone else feel? Maybe I need to lighten up.

I don't feel as though JKR was trying to recreate any specific war, or time period, or group of people.

If you look back in history, all dictatorships and all civil wars and all political upheavals have similarities.

I think that JKR just took the qualities that most exemplified these unfair and unjust situations, and imbued her characters with these traits.

The fact that a specific war or dictator or country comes to someone's mind is more a mirror of the reader's life experiences, the things they've studied or lived through, and not necessarily the result of a specific intent by the author.

I think that oppressed people from all over the world can relate to these stories, and would probably assign their own most familiar dictator the role of Voldemort.

And since JKR was portraying that kind of behavior as evil, I don't see why it shouldn't be a good lesson to include in the books. It's not "comfortable", but sometimes uncomfortable is necessary. We should never forget, no matter how uncomfortable remembering may be.

I don't feel as though JKR was trying to recreate any specific war, or time period, or group of people.

The fact that a specific war or dictator or country comes to someone's mind is more a mirror of the reader's life experiences, the things they've studied or lived through, and not necessarily the result of a specific intent by the author.



Seriously, no. Out of every dictatorship, only the Nazis have been DISTINGUISHED by their racial policies, dictatorships in palces such as Italy were less racially orientated, the racial undertones are quite clearly specific to Nazi Germany, not ''any dictatorship''.

German/Germany references are the least of it. It is one in a dozen of allusions.


Why would anyone have this desire, though? The references are all there - Nurmengard and its inscription, the Wand, the symbol of the Deathly Hallows, the left hand salute, Pius Thicknesse, eugenics, Voldemort's parentage... There are more that truly are applicable to most regimes of this kind, but these references are nothing if not specific.


Nurmengard has the inscription "for the greater good" how is that a clear parallel to anything in WWII without at least a fair stretch? The wand is the actual tool used to intimidate and control, what WWII reference does that correlate with? The spear of destiny? How so? The symbol of the deathly hollows is congruent in what way? What left hand salute? The dark mark? That is not a "left hand salute" it is a brand. I am at a loss to see anything specific. If anything it takes some molding for any of this to fit. In addition, this is a civil war, not an empirical one and the antagonist is English. The fact that the antagonist uses a centuries old prejudice to influence and gain support doesn't specifically mean WWII either. As for the percentage argument, actually Harry has a closer percentage than LV to Hitler so is he the correlation? I only ask this to get some idea of how any of these things are clear references to the WWII scenario without the use of some liberal associations.

Nurmengard has the inscription "for the greater good" how is that a clear parallel to anything in WWII without at least a fair stretch?
The name of Nurmengard, in itself, is emetically similar to Nuremberg. The inscription reflects "Arbeit macht frei" (Work is freedom), the epigraph on the concentration camps, both in its pharisaic message and physical setting.

The wand is the actual tool used to intimidate and control, what WWII reference does that correlate with? The spear of destiny? How so?
The Quest for the Deathly Hallows is reminiscent of the Grail Quest. The Grail Quest often includes the Spear of Destiny and other artifacts related to the Crucifixion (such as the Shroud of Turin). Hitler was known to have searched for the Spear of Destiny, having taken a deeply personal interest in the legends of Percival, and he ended up finding what he apparently believed to be the genuine spear.

The symbol of the deathly hollows is congruent in what way?
Because it is an ancient symbol adopted and thus corrupted by a dictator. Surely this is not such an abstruse reference.

What left hand salute? The dark mark? That is not a "left hand salute" it is a brand.
I believe everyone here can tell the difference between a brand and a salute. I was talking about Death Eaters having to raise their left arms to get into the Malfoy Manor.

I am at a loss to see anything specific.
Okay... I'm sorry?

If anything it takes some molding for any of this to fit.
Most people who posted in this thread have made it clear that they find the references obvious. Maybe it's a matter of how much knowledge one has on the subject?

In addition, this is a civil war, not an empirical one and the antagonist is English. The fact that the antagonist uses a centuries old prejudice to influence and gain support doesn't specifically mean WWII either.
Oh, but it does. No other war was based on eugenics.

As for the percentage argument, actually Harry has a closer percentage than LV to Hitler so is he the correlation?
Please tell me about this percentage argument. I don't recall it being mentioned before.

Seriously, no. Out of every dictatorship, only the Nazis have been DISTINGUISHED by their racial policies, dictatorships in palces such as Italy were less racially orientated, the racial undertones are quite clearly specific to Nazi Germany, not ''any dictatorship''.

That disregards almost every empical dictatorship in history throughout the entire world. China, Japan, Nigeria, Rome, Egypt, Britain to some extent and countless other regimns used racial devide and personal racial superiority as their sole right to conquer and control. This has been a motif for conflict throughout history including some very current strife. To insinuate that this is a clear reference to WWII because somehow Nazi Germany was Distinguished by their racial manipulation is missing a lot of history that would contradict that assertion profoundly. More argument could be made for the Roman empire mirroring the wizarding world than WWII Europe in a lot of ways.

That disregards almost every empical dictatorship in history throughout the entire world. China, Japan, Nigeria, Rome, Egypt, Britain to some extent and countless other regimns used racial devide and personal racial superiority as their sole right to conquer and control.
And it was used as a pretext, not as a primum mobile.

The name of Nurmengard, in itself, is emetically similar to Nuremberg. The inscription reflects "Arbeit macht frei" (Work is freedom), the epigraph on the concentration camps, both in its pharisaic message and physical setting.

There are epigraphs of many sorts with phrases of similar ilk in societies holding prisoners for time immorial, these two aren't even very similar in either verbage or meaning. The Romans were much closer in their motoes for captured enemies to "the greater good" than "Work is freedom". That is a stretch that requires some free association to make solely a WWII reference.


The Quest for the Deathly Hallows is reminiscent of the Grail Quest. The Grail Quest often includes the Spear of Destiny and other artifacts related to the Crucifixion (such as the Shroud of Turin). Hitler was known to have searched for the Spear of Destiny, having taken a deeply personal interest in the legends of Percival, and he ended up finding what he apparently believed to be the genuine spear.

Could more easily be metaphore for the crusades than Nazi Germany. The fact that there is some assertions that Hitler sought artifacts doesn't somehow make that unique for any empirialist. The fact that he believed some superstition about the spear of destiny, if in fact he really did believe it, doesn't clearly mimic the sucessful quest of LV garnering the Elder Wand, nor does LV seek all of the Hollows which would be more consistant with your example.


Because it is an ancient symbol adopted and thus corrupted by a dictator. Surely this is not such an abstruse reference.

The antagonist uses a symbol with a serpent and a skull for his imagery. The fact that a fallen would be dictator used the symbol of his obsession as a hallmark again is no clearcut WWII reference, it takes some reaching to somehow associate one to the other as such, IMO.


I believe everyone here can tell the difference between a brand and a salute. I was talking about Death Eaters having to raise their left arms to get into the Malfoy Manor.

They had to extend their brand to enter, they didn't raise a salute to each other or to their leader. That again is taking the relatively insignificant and making into something it seems obvious it wasn't inteded to be. If a "salute" were intended, one would have been writen in, showing a mark does not constitute a salute.


Okay... I'm sorry?

Appology accepted.


Most people who posted in this thread have made it clear that they find the references obvious. Maybe it's a matter of how much knowledge one has on the subject?

I have made clear that what seems obvious to some is innocent to others. The amount of knowledge you have on a subject can be a factor, but the predisposition to make correlations in a writing is also a big fator. Seeing something that you are predisposed to see enables these types of loose associations to become "obvious" metaphor. I am simply pointing out that these stretches can also be interpretted differently with a different perspective. The fact that some choose to make the associations they do is not for me to judge or dispute, but to call it obvious in the whole is where I feel I am quite within my right to present a counter conclusion and evidence to support it.


Oh, but it does. No other war was based on eugenics.

Egypt waged such a war on the Jews, Japan on itself, China on itself and Rome on pretty much the entire known world at the time. The key is that not unlike the book, most other "cleansings" have been civil in nature not external like in WWII. Let's face it, WWII was not a civil war. It was an empirical war based speciously on genetics, but driven by a desire for power. That is not a new or unique theme for wars. The stated supremecy of a group based on race, purity of that race or numerous other analogous factors is old and reoccuring in history. The fact that the most memorable and documented occurance was the last World War may make people predisposed to see it as unique, but it is not and all reference to dictitorial despots is not an analogous reference to Hitler and Nazi Germany. Being able to find analogous relationships when trying to find them is different from an overt attempt by an author to rehash the war or use it as a storyline premiss.


Please tell me about this percentage argument. I don't recall it being mentioned before.

It was in the post I quoted.

And it was used as a pretext, not as a primum mobile.

Right just like in the books. The parallel with all these other examples is closer than any example of WWII era.

Nurmengard has the inscription "for the greater good" how is that a clear parallel to anything in WWII without at least a fair stretch?

Nurmengard closely resembels Nuremberg, which was an important centre of power for the Nazis. The Nuremberg Laws, for example, were the legal basis for racial discrimination against Jews. And Ausschwitz and other concentration camps had the slogan "Arbeit macht frei" inscirbed over their entrance.

The wand is the actual tool used to intimidate and control, what WWII reference does that correlate with? The spear of destiny? How so?

Voldemort wanted the elder wand to finally become truely invincible. Hitler was said to be looking for the spear of destiny for the exact same reason.

The symbol of the deathly hollows is congruent in what way?

It was an ancient symbol that became known as the symbol of a cruel dictator and its original meaning was forgotten. The same happened to the swastika, the original ancient meaning of which is now largely forgotten in the Western world.

What left hand salute? The dark mark? That is not a "left hand salute" it is a brand.

When Snape and Yaxley arrive at Malfoy Manor in the first chapter, they raise their left hand "in a kind of salute" (sorry, I can't give the exact quote now, I've borrowed out my book). This immediately made me think of "Heil Hitler".

I am at a loss to see anything specific. If anything it takes some molding for any of this to fit.

I can assure you that these things didn't take any "molding" for me but sprang right at me. I certainly wasn't looking for any WWII references while reading DH. There would be no reason for me to do so.

In addition, this is a civil war, not an empirical one and the antagonist is English. The fact that the antagonist uses a centuries old prejudice to influence and gain support doesn't specifically mean WWII either.

Yes, I agree that this alone doesn't mean anything. But it's the wider context that matters.

As for the percentage argument, actually Harry has a closer percentage than LV to Hitler so is he the correlation?

I'm not sure what you mean with Harry having "a closer percentage to Hitler", but JKR said herself that she thought of Hitler when creating Voldemort.

I only ask this to get some idea of how any of these things are clear references to the WWII scenario without the use of some liberal associations.

Again, I want to point out that I wasn't looking for any references to WWII. I don't see why anyone would feel the need to do that. But they were quite abundant. There are also the wizards that have to prove their bloodstatus, like Jews and people of Jewish descent had to do in the Third Reich. And Dumbledore defeating Grindelwald in 1945, which JKR said she did in reference to the end of WWII.

Seeing as JKR has herself said that she used references to WWII on purpose, the question here really isn't "Are there any references to WWII?", because we know from JKR herself that they are there. So the question really is "Do these references bother you?"

My answer to this is: A bit. It has been clear from book one that JKR was alluding to WWII with Voldemort and blood purity. This didn't bother me at all. The reason for this is that the references were subtle and general enough that it was clear that the books were meant to deal with the dangers of racism in general. I thought it was a very good way to teach children an important lesson. And I think it is only natural for a European author to think of WWII when dealing with this topic, so I didn't mind JKR getting her examples from there.

However, things changed for me in DH. All these references from the "left hand salute" to the Hollows symble to "The greater good", etc. were far more blatant than anything before. It was the first time that I trully felt that JKR was no longer talking about racism in general, but Nazism in particular. And here I felt that she went a step too far, because to me it trivialised the real world events. I'm not strongly bothered by it, but it just doesn't feel quite right to me. And this thread shows that there are many people who feel the same, but also many that feel differently. It's a fine line, I guess, and for some JKR crossed that line. It's not a big disaster, but it's worth discussing. And I'm sure JKR would want us to discuss this. Afterall, there are no lessons to learn from a book dealing with rasism if people ignore all the references and don't talk about it. :)


Edit: Wow, you guys are fast. You've had quite a long discussion while I was writing one post. Anyway, OldLupin, I'm getting the impression that you are somehow, I don't know, angry? about people thinking there are WWII references. I don't understand this. Nobody is bashing JKR for it or hating the DH or anything. As I said, this is an important and worthwhile discussion. We can all learn from it. :)

There are epigraphs of many sorts with phrases of similar ilk in societies holding prisoners for time immorial, these two aren't even very similar in either verbage or meaning.
I don't know what you mean by immorial, since it's not a word. Speaking of which, neither is verbage. But surely you can provide me with some evidence of these other prisons and their epigraphs.

The Romans were much closer in their motoes for captured enemies to "the greater good" than "Work is freedom".
The Romans, however, put their captives into slavery, not into an actual building with a motto physically inscribed on it.

That is a stretch that requires some free association to make solely a WWII reference.
Then please, associate it with some other things for me.

Could more easily be metaphore for the crusades than Nazi Germany.
The Quest itself, but in terms of the story, it is merely a factor in the War. Just like the Quest for the Spear was merely a factor in World War II.

The fact that there is some assertions that Hitler sought artifacts doesn't somehow make that unique for any empirialist.
Some assertion? It happened.

The fact that he believed some superstition about the spear of destiny, if in fact he really did believe it, doesn't clearly mimic the sucessful quest of LV garnering the Elder Wand, nor does LV seek all of the Hollows which would be more consistant with your example.
Hitler wrote about the Spear in Mein Kampf, and claimed that his quest, and the meanings he derived from Parsifal (an opera about the Grail Quest), had been the most vital years of his life. He also claimed that, upon seeing the Spear, he saw his destiny unfold itself to him.

The antagonist uses a symbol with a serpent and a skull for his imagery. The fact that a fallen would be dictator used the symbol of his obsession as a hallmark again is no clearcut WWII reference, it takes some reaching to somehow associate one to the other as such, IMO.
That's pretty good, because I was not talking about a symbol with a serpent and a skull, but the mark of the Deathly Hallows.

They had to extend their brand to enter, they didn't raise a salute to each other or to their leader. That again is taking the relatively insignificant and making into something it seems obvious it wasn't inteded to be. If a "salute" were intended, one would have been writen in, showing a mark does not constitute a salute.
It's something Rowling consciously chose to put in the book. No matter how subtle allusions are, they were meant by the author.

I have made clear that what seems obvious to some is innocent to others. The amount of knowledge you have on a subject can be a factor, but the predisposition to make correlations in a writing is also a big fator.
You missed an obvious reference to the Deathly Hallows symbol. I think that, if you knew enough about the Swastika, this would not have happened. So I would say that knowledge is a far greater factor than the writing.


Egypt waged such a war on the Jews, Japan on itself, China on itself and Rome on pretty much the entire known world at the time.
Not because of eugenics.

The key is that not unlike the book, most other "cleansings" have been civil in nature not external like in WWII. Let's face it, WWII was not a civil war. It was an empirical war based speciously on genetics, but driven by a desire for power.
Can you actually prove that Hitler's motive was something other than the creation of an Aryan world?

It was in the post I quoted.
Here's the post:

Why would anyone have this desire, though? The references are all there - Nurmengard and its inscription, the Wand, the symbol of the Deathly Hallows, the left hand salute, Pius Thicknesse, eugenics, Voldemort's parentage... There are more that truly are applicable to most regimes of this kind, but these references are nothing if not specific.
Percentage what?

Right just like in the books. The parallel with all these other examples is closer than any example of WWII era.
No. In the books, pure blood was the primum mobile.

That disregards almost every empical dictatorship in history throughout the entire world. China, Japan, Nigeria, Rome, Egypt, Britain to some extent and countless other regimns used racial devide and personal racial superiority as their sole right to conquer and control. This has been a motif for conflict throughout history including some very current strife. To insinuate that this is a clear reference to WWII because somehow Nazi Germany was Distinguished by their racial manipulation is missing a lot of history that would contradict that assertion profoundly. More argument could be made for the Roman empire mirroring the wizarding world than WWII Europe in a lot of ways.


Not really, the fact that the Nazi genocide was carried out in an era where humanity was moving forward and also commited by a pretty advanced nation in the world is quite unique, and although you can be PC and say ''it would be ANY dictatorship ever'', I'd eat my hat if JKR wasn't directly influenced by the Nazi reigime in particular. The fact that propaganda and indoctrination in schools was used in DH, and other feature such as corruption from WITHIN the system (Ministry of Magic) as oppsoed to military invasion (as a Roman parrallel would suggest) would give of clear similarities to Nazi Germany.

[B]
Edit: Wow, you guys are fast. You've had quite a long discussion while I was writing one post. Anyway, OldLupin, I'm getting the impression that you are somehow, I don't know, angry? about people thinking there are WWII references. I don't understand this. Nobody is bashing JKR for it or hating the DH or anything. As I said, this is an important and worthwhile discussion. We can all learn from it. :)

Why would you think that? I don't recall writing anything angry. I was simply pointing to the fact that while 1945 may be an overt WWII reference and Jo may have thought of Hitler when writing LV, I've never read those comments if you have a link it might clarify things, that some of these references are obscure and do require some predisposition to seeing them in that light to be interpretted that way. That and most require some stretching and molding to make them fit.

'Arbeit macht frei' might be the most (in)famous three-letter tenet, but it was by no means the only one, if you find this one stretched. There's also 'Kraft durch Freude' (Strength by joy) or 'Wille zur Macht' (Will to Power), actually the Nazis seemed to have had a whole propaganda ministery to invent these catchy slogans. I think 'Will to Power' might in fact be the one inspiring JKR most.

I really believe she was trying to put the scope of Voldemorts plans and senseless killings into a format that was very easy to understand, and and to show exactly the atrocities that aregoing on in the wizarding and to some degree the muggle world. I dont believe she was picking on germans at all, or trivializing the Holocost. I actually thought the names sounded a bit russian.

I don't know what you mean by immorial, since it's not a word. Speaking of which, neither is verbage. But surely you can provide me with some evidence of these other prisons and their epigraphs. Please understand that a lot of people posting here don't have English as their mother tongue, so a little slack would be kind. No?

'Arbeit macht frei' might be the most (in)famous three-letter tenet, but it was by no means the only one, if you find this one stretched. There's also 'Kraft durch Freude' (Strength by joy) or 'Wille zur Macht' (Will to Power), actually the Nazis seemed to have had a whole propaganda ministery to invent these catchy slogans. I think 'Will to Power' might in fact be the one inspiring JKR most.
But "Arbeit macht frei" was the one inscribed in the gates of concentration camps, which is why I brought it up.

Please understand that a lot of people posting here don't have English as their mother tongue, so a little slack would be kind. No?
I wasn't being unkind, I just honestly don't understand what the poster meant. Besides, English is not my mother tongue either.

But "Arbeit macht frei" was the one inscribed in the gates of concentration camps, which is why I brought it up.



Yes, I know, but (if it is meant as a parallel to begin with) 'Magic Is Might' is to be found as a huge inscription in the Ministry itself.

As I have said on my posts about the Spear of Desitiny back on pages 22, and 24, the Spear is also to have said to have passed through the hands of every great ruler(though that does not mean good,i.e.Hitler) through the years, much like the Elder Wand has passed through the hands of many great sorcerors through time, i.e. Grindelwald, Dumbledore, Voldemort. Also the spear is said to give the owner like the greatest power in the world, like how the United States is now, being the economic central basically, and having like the strongest army. If you believe the legend of the Spear this is supposed to be because the U.S. possess it.

Little Tidbit: apparently Grindelvald is a place in Switzerland....I was running a Google search for something completely unrelated to Harry Potter when I found this out.

While there are many references that can be attributed to Nazism in DH, i think, by and large, they are not exclusively Nazi in background. Every oppressive regime has these characteristics. And the racist/purist aspect is not exclusively Nazi, either.

However, the one point that I thought was the most glaring parallel between LV and Hitler is the ancestry bit. Voldemort sought and promoted pureblood supremacy, when he was in fact a half blood. Just the same, Hitler pursued Arayan (tall blond hair blue eyed) dominance, when he was short, dark haired and eyed.

We should clarify one thing - being tall, blonde and blue-eyed was an aesthetic ideal in the Third Reich, it was no existential requirement. As long as you were of Aryan descent, they were just as happy with you being short, brunette and brown-eyed. You merely wouldn't have been featured in a Leni Riefenstahl movie.

I understand that the topic is always very emotional but could you please all take a deep breath and put less vigour and aggression in your posts?

I wasn't being unkind, I just honestly don't understand what the poster meant. Besides, English is not my mother tongue either.

"Time immemorial" should have been “time and memorial” and is a reference to all time or throughout all time. “Verbage” instead of “verbiage” is a typographical error as well. I apologize for the difficulty in deciphering that post, but I was pressed for time and typing quickly without spell checking before sending.

honestly, I laughed when I realized all the WW2 references in this book. I don't think it was meant to hurt anyones feelings or to make people uncomfortable in any way. I just think it was just to sort of remind people that this kind of thing can happen anytime and we need to be carefull not to judge others on the basis of blood origin. it can lead to many deaths and a lot of pain for so many people and it only hurts the ones causing it as well.

"Time immemorial" should have been “time and memorial” and is a reference to all time or throughout all time. “Verbage” instead of “verbiage” is a typographical error as well. I apologize for the difficulty in deciphering that post, but I was pressed for time and typing quickly without spell checking before sending.
It actually said 'immorial', out of which I could make no sense whatsoever. Sorry if my response to you seemed rude, it honestly was not meant to. Anyway, I recommend Firefox, which has a built-in spell check.

THANK YOU.

sorry i thought i was the only one

not that i'm German (or Jewish), but i felt like V is A LOT maybe even exactly like Hitler. He controlled everything and worked in silence and had a lot of recruits and the whole muggle thing too(the questioning)

but i felt like V is A LOT maybe even exactly like Hitler. He controlled everything and worked in silence and had a lot of recruits and the whole muggle thing too(the questioning)

Hitler was not quiet at all. He was a very charismatic speaker which drew people to what he had to say and convince them he was right. There are still films of his speeches. I do find it interesting that Voldemort was taking over Hogwarts and only letting in students he deemed worthy, much like Hitler's Youth.

J.K. Rowling has mentioned that there were connections between the wizarding world and the muggle world.

I thought the connections between the Wizarding War (Voldemort) and the Muggle War (Hitler) were great and just 1 of the lessons to be learned from the books. Many people that are reading the books were not alive during WWII. I think by integrating history with this magical world was a great way to introduce or remind people of that time in history. We need to learn and understand history, good or bad, in order to repeat what works and understand and prevent what doesn't work.

I can understand your feeling that the references sit uncomfortably with you though. Being "1/2 a Kraut" myself, I know how my dad's family ended up in America many years ago. I also know that you did not speak about or ask questions about WWII to my grandparents, especially my grandpa.



Accio-Quote / Scholastic interview Oct 2000 (http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2000/1000-scholastic-chat.htm)

Question: How would you describe the relationship between the wizard world and the Muggle world?
J.K. Rowling responds: Uneasy co-existence! Harry discovers that life in the magical world mirrors, to a great extent, life in the Muggle world. We are all human. There's still bigotry and small-mindedness (unfortunately).

Accio-Quote / Melissa and Emerson interview, July 16, 2006 (http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-3.htm)

JKR: I'm going to tell you as much as I told someone earlier who asked me. You know Owen who won the [UK television] competition to interview me? He asked about Grindelwald [pronounced "Grindelvald" HMM…]. He said, “Is it coincidence that he died in 1945,” and I said no. It amuses me to make allusions to things that were happening in the Muggle world, so my feeling would be that while there's a global Muggle war going on, there's also a global wizarding war going on.

I can understand your feeling that the references sit uncomfortably with you though. Being "1/2 a Kraut" myself, I know how my dad's family ended up in America many years ago. I also know that you did not speak about or ask questions about WWII to my grandparents, especially my grandpa.I still think I do not feel uncomfortable with German references, because Germany how I know it is just completely different. I don't feel these references are 'German' at all. However, history is still quite present in Germany and so the repeated references in literature to WWII may come across different for someone growing up here. Or we may just notice them better aka more often in literature and movies.
I sit uncomfortable with that, because I believe they're presented too often in a general and way too often only to show 'the most evil' as a quite 'easy' reference. A code all understand. This makes me feel uncomfortable. It's not about what happened, the history is used for a better plotline.

This happens with several events in history and hardly one actually can be used 'right' - because we create the history we want to teach our children ourselves every time with what is important for our time. But it could done less and not everytime when one needs a reference to something horrible. One of my favourite movies is 'Harold and Maude', but a very short scene which shows that Maude - a overly happy and life breathing character - was a victim of a concentration camp, always steals something of the good story for me. A big event was used for the story only, not to show or teach or remind about anything in WWII.
While I still say JK uses her references in a way more accurate style, it still made me unhappy that she put herself in a row with all the authors and screenwriters who used these references to give their story another level.

For real life I never came across people who lived during WWII and refuse to speak about it. No matter what their role was. People who supported Hitler simply kind of leave these parts out in their reports usually, but all talk about it quite much. They still have to deal with what happened and maybe as well with what they've done for it. Or not done against it. But then - and this may sound weird in first instance - people in my or my parent's age/generation use to complain that our grandparents come back to what happened to them during the dictatorship on every fitting or not fitting occasion. It's actually similar to what I try to explain why I feel it is overdone in literature when you stumble over WWII references everywhere. The reasons are completely different, but the result is the same: references to WWII become kind of annoying instead of a memory of what should never happen again.

Please forgive me if someone already covered this, I'll admit I skimmed the thread and probably missed some posts.

In addition to the negative WWII references like Nuremgard, blood status, etc. there were also positive references.

On "Potter Watch" Kingsley encourages wizards to cast protective spells around muggle dwellings in their areas and talks about brave deeds by wizards protecting their muggle neighbors. To me that was a reminder that some people are willing to help others, regardless of their heritage. I took that as a positive message, a message that even in the darkest of times there is hope for human nature. Maybe I'm alone here, but for me that is the true message of the book, and the real message of the WWII references.

Oh, and I agree with everyone that talked about the wizard world mirroring the muggle world. In the beginning of HBP we were given dramatic examples of this happening. The time frame fits too, Riddle was at school 50 years before the setting of CoS putting his residency at Hogwarts sometime in the 1950s. Grindelwald was defeated before that, but how long we don't really know. I'm guessing that the duel coincided with the end of WWII.

I think it fits perfectly since there have been references to it through out the whole series and it drove home JKR's theme running through the whole series about prejudice

Grindelwald was defeated before that, but how long we don't really know. I'm guessing that the duel coincided with the end of WWII.


It is known that he was defeated by Dumbledore in 1945. Yes, coinciding with the end of WWII.

It is known that he was defeated by Dumbledore in 1945. Yes, coinciding with the end of WWII.

I missed seeing the date then. Thanks.

i think she was just mentioning how history repeats itself....no big deal, it's basically our world!!!

When I read the trial part in the MOM with Umbridge I was very uncomfortabley reminded about a film I recently watched, (I would highly recomend, by the way.) called "The Final Days of Sophie Scholl". I thought the fascist parallels in DH very striking. A thought to keep in mind that Germany was not the only country to espouse fascist ideals. They just had a stronger base there because Hitler was a very charasmatic leader and found like minded people to work with him.

If we don't learn the lessons of history then we are doomed to repeat them. The lesson of Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and Stalinist Soviet Union are from a relatively recent past. in world history The Nazi's came closer to world domination than many of you realize, which makes it rather a more important lesson for those of us who do.

anotherpotter- I think you have it right. And what JKR has done is to in effect personalize history so that another generation can more easily appreciate and learn from it.

No one is perfect, not even our parents and other ancestors. But if we pretend they were perfect, as much as it comforts us, it blinds us to their mistakes, and robs us of a chance to learn from them.

And that is true of everyone, not just Germans or Japanese or Russians.

I can honestly say that the references to WW2 did not sit uncofortably. In fact i thought it added to the novel. I have just returned from a trip to eastern europe which included a day at Auswitzch,a deeply thought provoking experience. I do not think that Rowling trivilised the topic at all but instead used allegories of the war and the halocaust so that a new generation could undestand the crimes of the past. There was a quote at the site that really made me think:

"He who does not learn from history is doomed to repeat it"

As survivors of the period are entering into old age, i think it is important that the next generation remebers and never forgets the atrocities. If harry potter allows children to gain an insight into this horrific notion of ethnic clensing and incites just one child to ask further questions about the parellels then i think it is worth it. When WW2 ceases to be part of the livings memories then it will only be remebered through museums, text books, art, literature and education. a ten year old child will struggle to comprenend the enormity of the situation but can gain some comphrension about the issues through allegory in fiction. the 30's and 40's seem alien to many children but their feelings of anger and revulsion at what voldemort tried to do to thier favorite characters are perhaps more real to them and hopefully this emoitional attatchment to thier favorite characters will help them to contexualise the war and prompt them to discover more - perhaps by asking grandparents or reading up on the subjet. I hope I havn't offended anyone with this standpoint as i understand it is a complex and emotive issue, i just beleive that the events of WW2 should never be forgotten.

I can honestly say that the references to WW2 did not sit uncofortably. In fact i thought it added to the novel. I have just returned from a trip to eastern europe which included a day at Auswitzch,a deeply thought provoking experience. I do not think that Rowling trivilised the topic at all but instead used allegories of the war and the halocaust so that a new generation could undestand the crimes of the past. There was a quote at the site that really made me think:

"He who does not learn from history is doomed to repeat it"

As survivors of the period are entering into old age, i think it is important that the next generation remebers and never forgets the atrocities. If harry potter allows children to gain an insight into this horrific notion of ethnic clensing and incites just one child to ask further questions about the parellels then i think it is worth it. When WW2 ceases to be part of the livings memories then it will only be remebered through museums, text books, art, literature and education. a ten year old child will struggle to comprenend the enormity of the situation but can gain some comphrension about the issues through allegory in fiction. the 30's and 40's seem alien to many children but their feelings of anger and revulsion at what voldemort tried to do to thier favorite characters are perhaps more real to them and hopefully this emoitional attatchment to thier favorite characters will help them to contexualise the war and prompt them to discover more - perhaps by asking grandparents or reading up on the subjet. I hope I havn't offended anyone with this standpoint as i understand it is a complex and emotive issue, i just beleive that the events of WW2 should never be forgotten.

I see your point and remembering WWII is certainly important. However, I think that especially this war is the most merchandised war of all time. There is hardly a day when there is no documentary on TV, especially in Britain. If I remember correctly there were complaints that British history lessons were too focussed on the Tudor era and WWII. So it's definitely not a problem of the past not being present. In my country it's the same, only from a different angle, of course. We are constantly being confronted with WWII in the media and for me, it was just another reference in DH.

However, history is still quite present in Germany and so the repeated references in literature to WWII may come across different for someone growing up here. Or we may just notice them better aka more often in literature and movies.

I think that's very true. When I read the first chapter and came to the point where Snape and the others pass through the gate by raising their arms in a kind of salute... the hair on my neck was raised.

As a German, all these references were quite uncomfortable (understandably I believe, considering the immense feeling of guilt that many of us still carry with them) but not really too much so.
And I doubt whether people (especially younger ones) from the rest of the world would recognise all these references or be as shocked as "we" tend to be. If that should be the case I think Jo could have borrowed from other terrorist regimes as well so as to make the message more international and even clearer.

Ok, but then it would no longer be possible to sell HP as a children's book... ;)

Enough rambling on my part - what I liked where the few German sentences in there, I read over them and had to go back like - what was that? :)

However, I think that especially this war is the most merchandised war of all time. There is hardly a day when there is no documentary on TV, especially in Britain.

If it weren't for WWII History Channel would have almost nothing to show.

The Nazi's came closer to world domination than many of you realize, which makes it rather a more important lesson for those of us who do.
On the other hand, many of us realize that Western Europe does not dominate the world.

As a German, all these references were quite uncomfortable (understandably I believe, considering the immense feeling of guilt that many of us still carry with them) but not really too much so.
Actually I was neither shocked nor felt guilty, but I don't like the overuse of the references in literature in general. I'm more shocked that it doesn't disturb too many people that WWII is used for an uncertain horror feeling in literature without ever referring to what really happened. It's used for plotline aims only in too many cases (not speaking of JK's DH here), what sits uncomfortable with me.

We've been having racial wars for centuries....look at The Crusades. If ever there was a conflict where 'race' was the main issue, this was it. It the later of these wars, look up the Knight Templars, the SS in chain mail, lets see what you think!

Actually I was neither shocked nor felt guilty, but I don't like the overuse of the references in literature in general. I'm more shocked that it doesn't disturb too many people that WWII is used for an uncertain horror feeling in literature without ever referring to what really happened. It's used for plotline aims only in too many cases (not speaking of JK's DH here), what sits uncomfortable with me.

I concur. This overuse is very close to trivialising unrivalled horrors and this makes me uncomfortable.

Actually I was neither shocked nor felt guilty, but I don't like the overuse of the references in literature in general. I'm more shocked that it doesn't disturb too many people that WWII is used for an uncertain horror feeling in literature without ever referring to what really happened. It's used for plotline aims only in too many cases (not speaking of JK's DH here), what sits uncomfortable with me.I see what you mean, but I think it's used because it's something that almost everybody in the world knows and understands, ie read about. Not sympathise with.

raising your left arm (though without a dark mark on it) was the sort of salute communist regimes were used to, most of which were not exactly better than the nazi one.
Unfortunately, violence, racism and ethnical prejudice are not a copyright by only one ideology :)

I'm sure the events can fit into many other history of wars and dictatorships in other Countries (I'm thinking of a couple of African Countries here), but I think the reference is blatantly to the nazi Germany and the WWII. That was too big of a turning point in history.. Europe before WWII and Europe after WWII are two different universes. I find it quite normal that it stuck in people's mind like this. I don't sit uncuncomfortably with it, but I'm not German (I'm from Italy, whose regime was not so less racially orientated, even if we like to deceive ourselves with that thought).

By the way, is Gregorovich a German name? sounds more like Slav to me.

I see what you mean, but I think it's used because it's something that almost everybody in the world knows and understands, ie read about. Not sympathise with.I agree. I'm just afraid - or that's the reason I'm sit a bit uncomfortable with it - that this using will at some point lead to another reception of what happened during the time. In fact I believe it already did.
I'm not speaking against the use of it in literature and movies. Actually I believe this is needed to a certain level like it is with all things happening around us. Just think it's used way too often already, what no longer works for the anticipated effect for some readers. And, what is more important, slowly takes away the horror and trivialize it. Now one can do quite huge discussions on how many of the holocaust one can show in entertainment and in which ways this can be done. Actually these discussions already have been done and leaded to big arguments over decades under historians, media scientists, movie makers, authors, etc.
I believe these things are allowed to be shown in several ways, and don't need a serious or academial background all the time, but it's beating to strikes when it come so often. It may lead to people are annoyed or even no more noticing it.

By the way, is Gregorovich a German name? sounds more like Slav to me.Yes, it is a Slavic name. The assumption that also this scene is a reference to WWII comes from the German sentences JK included in the scene where Voldemort asks the woman living in Gregorovitch house where to find him.

Firstly Gregorovitch wasn't evil, he was just a wandmaker like Ollivander :)

I had seen the connections between Harry Potter and WWII while reading all the books, and I didn't really feel uncomfortable until the scene with Umbridge judging Muggleborns in the MoM. I don't know if anyone else got this same feeling, but I got this strong feeling that Umbridge was muggle born herself and was turning against her own people in order to save herself. I've heard of stories like this throughout different racial genocides and this part made me feel uncomfortable.

On the whole I think that JKR portrayed the theme of racial genocides in a mature & responsible way that might interest people and might encourage them to find out more about the things that are happening in our world today - Darfur for example.

Firstly Gregorovitch wasn't evil, he was just a wandmaker like Ollivander :)
:agree:

I had seen the connections between Harry Potter and WWII while reading all the books, and I didn't really feel uncomfortable until the scene with Umbridge judging Muggleborns in the MoM. I don't know if anyone else got this same feeling, but I got this strong feeling that Umbridge was muggle born herself and was turning against her own people in order to save herself. I've heard of stories like this throughout different racial genocides and this part made me feel uncomfortable.
It's possible. Her false explanation of the locket tends to suggest that she was at least partially falsifying details of her own past.

Not really, but I would've liked an entirely different plot better. Anyways, Voldemort does remind me a lot of Hitler, he even pretty much kills himself.

i didn'y like much, either...

I think the message in the books is that things like this have happened in history and they still keep happening. There have always been, unfortunately, persecutions against people for being a different colour, different religion, even being a witch. Unfortunately the Catholic church seems to have a lot to do with that (crusades, Spanish Inquisition etc.) It's still going on today in Darfur and all over the world. So Voldemort could be compared to any dictator or political leader with a fondness for getting rid of people they don't like.

But yes, I guess in a way Voldemort is more like Hitler - Hitler's own father was half-Jewish, so Hitler was 1/4 Jewish, while Voldemort's father was a muggle. So unfortunatly people are going to associate it more with the WWII era. But we can't forget also that there are associations with the KKK as well - the death eaters all have hoods etc.

It would be great though if children read this with their parents and their parents tell them more about WWII, Rwanda, Darfur and other genocides. If children can learn through Harry Potter maybe it will make the world a better place?

I couldn't help feeling this was overdone either, as it unfolded much too quickly! It is simply impossible that in the course of scarcely a few weeks, the policy has so dramatically changed!
In Germany there were years of propaganda so that the antisemitism was deeply entrenched in people's minds...

It didn't only happen in a few weeks. It has always been like that through out the books...
... umbridge and halfbreeds...
... fudge suspecting Madam Maxim...
... Slytherin from 1000 years ago making the Chamber of secrets...
And even in the seventh book, most people didn't buy it. They were just forced to keep their heads down like the people who are working in the ministry and secretly criticizing Umbridge while making Ministry Leaflets. In the end, we see about 3/4 of the school rebelling against the idea and LV.

On the other hand, many of us realize that Western Europe does not dominate the world.

For a few days following the attack on Pearl harbor, the U.S. and Great Britain had but one foe in common- Japan. Hitler sealed the doom of his Third Reich when he arbitrarily declared war on America. Following the German declaration of war, Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt met to plan Allied strategy. The most critical decision made at that meeting was the concept of "Germany first".

Both Roosevelt and Churchill felt that the economic and military power of Germany and it's conquered territories was far greater and had more potential that that of Japan, and thus posed the greater threat.

When America entered the war, Germany controlled an area from Scandanavia in the north to Africa in the south, all of Western Europe, and over a quarter of the Soviet Union, and had suffered no serious military setback to that point. 230 German divisions or 2 million German soldiers were currently on the attack on the Soviet front. Once Hitler had subdued the Soviets, his intentions were to finish England, and then prepare for the war against the United States. Hitler considered the United States a weak mongrel nation controlled by rich and powerful Jews, and was looking forward to destroying it. Japan was an island nation with limited resources who wanted a limited war with the United States and the Allies.

The "Germany first" concept turned out to be the most important decision of the war. Even with the incredible manufacturing power of the United States and the endless manpower of the Soviets, the Allied victory over Germany was never a guaranteed result. In actual fact, it was closer than most people realize or will ever know. The fate of the entire world hung in the balance on a hundred different occasions during the war. Without the victory over the Nazis in Western Europe, most of us would be speaking German today.

One of my favourite movies is 'Harold and Maude', but a very short scene which shows that Maude - a overly happy and life breathing character - was a victim of a concentration camp, always steals something of the good story for me. A big event was used for the story only, not to show or teach or remind about anything in WWII.

It was used to illustrate something large in that characters life, and the fact that this person refused to let something that terrible define the rest of her life. It was an illustration of great personal determination. It was also a subtle reminder of one nation's descent into evil, and what any of us is possibly capable of. For evil to succeed, it is only neccesary that good men do nothing.

All I have to say about this is that authors have to get their inspiration from somewhere. I do think it greatly resembles World War II...
hey, do you think if they can fin enought parellels between the two, we'll get to read it in history class, when we are on that unit?
THAT would be COOL
just saying ;)

Maybe it's because I'm German, or maybe it's because I'm utterly humourless when it comes to these sorts of allegories.

I couldn't help but feel that the obvious references to National Socialism were a little bit over done. I felt rather uncomfortable whenever another reference came up. Oh and Grindelwald and Gregorovitch just had to be German, didn't they?

How did everyone else feel? Maybe I need to lighten up.

It's funny (not funny "haha", funny "strange") how we are sensitive about things that hit close to us. I actually hadn't made the connection with Nazism and "ethnic cleansing" (a term that came about much later) until you mentioned it. Then of course it jumped out at me, but it didn't upset me too much. There's been ethnic cleansing elsewhere than in Nazi camps, look at the former Yugoslavia in the late 1990's and look at Darfur now. Look at the Armenian genocide, or the Kurdish genocide, or Rwanda, or - does anyone even remember it? - Biafra.

The "funny" thing is that what I'm upset about is how ethnic minorities (I'm Asian myself) have secondary roles in the series, just there for "local color" and to prove how broad-minded the Wizarding community is. But, apart from Kingsley becoming Acting Minister of Magic (in sort of a throwaway line that some people missed), all the ethnic minority characters sort of disappear, fade into the background, then oblivion. Sorry for repeating myself, but look at Cho, the only one who gets a little more than five minutes' attention. She's elbowed away without ceremony at the end, by a white girl using another white girl to put the Asian where she belongs, on the sidelines. Then you hear no more about her at all, whether she survives or not, what becomes of her if she does. :grumble:

The group who accompanies Harry to the Ministry of Magic are all white. The main characters all end up marrying white people (even the werewolf is white when in human form). That bothers me no end, a lot more than Grindenwald having a German-sounding name. As for Gregorovitch, isn't that rather a Russian name?

I do think you put too much into this, rotsiepot. But then I think I do the same thing about the ethnic minority stuff. :D

As usual, I didn't take the time to read all the responses. Sorry if I duplicate some of the arguments already put out. :(

It's funny (not funny "haha", funny "strange") how we are sensitive about things that hit close to us. I actually hadn't made the connection with Nazism and "ethnic cleansing" (a term that came about much later) until you mentioned it. Then of course it jumped out at me, but it didn't upset me too much. There's been ethnic cleansing elsewhere than in Nazi camps, look at the former Yugoslavia in the late 1990's and look at Darfur now. Look at the Armenian genocide, or the Kurdish genocide, or Rwanda, or - does anyone even remember it? - Biafra.

The "funny" thing is that what I'm upset about is how ethnic minorities (I'm Asian myself) have secondary roles in the series, just there for "local color" and to prove how broad-minded the Wizarding community is. But, apart from Kingsley becoming Acting Minister of Magic (in sort of a throwaway line that some people missed), all the ethnic minority characters sort of disappear, fade into the background, then oblivion. Sorry for repeating myself, but look at Cho, the only one who gets a little more than five minutes' attention. She's elbowed away without ceremony at the end, by a white girl using another white girl to put the Asian where she belongs, on the sidelines. Then you hear no more about her at all, whether she survives or not, what becomes of her if she does. :grumble:

The group who accompanies Harry to the Ministry of Magic are all white. The main characters all end up marrying white people (even the werewolf is white when in human form). That bothers me no end, a lot more than Grindenwald having a German-sounding name. As for Gregorovitch, isn't that rather a Russian name?

I do think you put too much into this, rotsiepot. But then I think I do the same thing about the ethnic minority stuff. :D

As usual, I didn't take the time to read all the responses. Sorry if I duplicate some of the arguments already put out. :(

That's a good point about there not being many ethnic minorities in the series - is there a thread on this by the way?

My theory on this is that England would be traditionally seen as a "white" country - in that throughout history the majority of people would have been caucasion. Nowadays there's a big difference, which is great :D it's also happening in Ireland which I'm glad to see.

So anyway my theory is that witches & wizards would on the whole choose to remain in their country of birth because if there was a large amount of emigration then some countries population of witches & wizards may disappear or it may not be viable for those who are left to actually remain in their country. I hope this is making sense :lol:

so what i'm trying to say is that i think that there might be less evidence of ethnic minorities in the books because there is less migration in the magical world.

another point - it could be also because people of similar ethnicities tend to befriend each other rather than befriending people who are from different ethnicities, which is bad because it means people aren't learning to tolerate others by mixing with them. But I have observed lots of groups of friends, and a lot of the time these groups are made up of the same ethnicity. The Irish are probably the worst at it! :lol: I'm in Australia at the moment and it seems like us Irish only hang out with other Irish people - although i'm trying to go against the norm!!!

The references did not sit uncomfortably, and I think that they were actually an important part of the plot. While I clearly can't speak for JKR, it seems to me that Grindelwald's German background was vital to his development into a "dark wizard". After all, if I remember correctly, one of Grindelwald's goals was to control muggles, both for their own good and for the good of wizards. If he lived in Germany while the Nazi's were coming to power he may have come to view muggles as a danger to themselves and to wizards. Keeping in mind that wizards are generally ignorant of muggle affairs, he may have seen the situation in Germany as representative of all muggles, and come to believe that unless wizards controled muggles, the muggles would continue to fight and kill each other pointlessly. We also see that many, if not most, wizards, live in muggle communities, which would mean that Germany's invasion of it's neigbors, and later on the Allied liberation of Europe(he may not have recognized the Allies efforts to stop Germany, but rather seen them as just more foolish muggles needlessly killing other muggles), would have undoubtedly lead to many wizard deaths, "proving"(in Grindelwald's mind) that muggles were a danger to the wizarding world as well as themselves. It does not appear that Grindelwald was truly evil, but rather that he actually did want to improve the world and make it a safer place. He was simply confused by the actions of those muggles nearest to him.

Voldemort's similarities to Hitler tie into this. His desire to kill muggles is similar to the genocide commited by the Nazi's, and his efforts to do so also lead to the death of many wizards. This serves to show that wizards are no better than muggles, as war and genocide can occure in both wordls. From that, the meaning can be easily derived. Feeling superior to another group is not only ignorant of the fact that all humans can commit terrible acts, but can often lead to the "superior" group becoming just as bad, if not worse, than those they look down on. After all, both Grindelwald and Voldemort thought that muggles were inferior, and although Grindelwald seemed to have an honest desire to help, Voldemort began to hate the "inferior" muggles, and desired to wipe them out.

i didint notice all that maybe cause im not german i just saw the greater good thing and it makes sense in its relation to WWII, but the only thing i noticed was it ended in 1945, i didnt see that they were german at all

I'm interested that a number of people felt offended with the obvious WWII references, for reasons that never occurred to me before.

Personally, my reaction was sort of opposite:

I originally thought that JKR was maybe trying to convey some of the lessons that people of a past generation learned from having to live through WWII, and to reach the understandings of young children she chose to do this in the form of fiction, rather than history.

If children have read about an Umbridge, would they recognize that style, that flavor of behavior later, if they run into it in the real world, and recognize how horrible it is? Could they be immunized to some degree from becoming dupes of the next Muggle version of the DE's?

I don't know if this was really her motivation; some things in the books suggest it to me; others, maybe not. But could the series be useful in that way, do you think?

I do agree that it is unfortunate to stigmatize any particular nationality.

i didint notice all that maybe cause im not german i just saw the greater good thing and it makes sense in its relation to WWII, but the only thing i noticed was it ended in 1945, i didnt see that they were german at all

Actually, I think that rotsiepots was too sensitive (this is not meant in a negative sense, considering how sensitive I am to the treatment of ethnic minorities). Neither Karkarov nor Gregorovitch are German-sounding names, and Grindenwald could be Alsatian for all we know.

The whole thing is not meant to bash Germans in general or Nazis in particular, it's sort of a "lesson from the past", not to be repeated, about ethnic cleansing, genocide, or whatever you may call it. To us Asians, anti-Semitism was never understandable. Those people where all White, weren't they? Or the religious wars between Catholics and Protestants (look at Ireland, or the St. Bartholomew massacre) or between Muslim sects (look at Iraq). Here in HP, it's not a question of race, Wizards or Muggles can be any color, it's about magical abilities or the lack thereof in the family tree. But, same difference. You hate and fight what is different from you. Or at least those people did. For me, Vive la différence! The world would be so boring http://www.avenueviet.com/forums/images/smiles/sleep.gif if we all looked the same and thought the same, wouldn't it?

There wouldn't even be need for chat sites like this. If it's all "oh yes you're quite right, I think the same thing", it would all become boring to death. http://www.avenueviet.com/forums/images/smiles/dead.gif

Anyway, that's my two cents on it. :)

I personally found it very disturbing. The analogies are scary: Mudbloods-Jews
Hitler-Grindy. I hope very much that JKR did not intent to do this. After I read the opening chapter of The Half-Blood Prince, I was very forcibly reminded of the terrible events of 9/11.

I personally found it very disturbing. The analogies are scary: Mudbloods-Jews
Hitler-Grindy. I hope very much that JKR did not intent to do this. After I read the opening chapter of The Half-Blood Prince, I was very forcibly reminded of the terrible events of 9/11.

Huh? Please clarify. I don't quite see the connection to 9/11/2001.

Mudbloods can be a lot of other things than Jews, i.e. Blacks in Darfur (vs. Arabs), Sunnis if you're Shiite and vice versa, Kurd if you're Arab, Hindu if you're Tamil and vice versa, Catholic if you're Protestant and vice versa (well, that's a bit past except in Ireland) and even nowadays non-white (Hispanic included) if you're white, the list is endless. Do I detect some ethno-centrism here? Just a question, not a criticism. I tend to be quite ethnocentric myself. http://www.avenueviet.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_mrgreen.gif

Huh? Please clarify. I don't quite see the connection to 9/11/2001.

Mudbloods can be a lot of other things than Jews, i.e. Blacks in Darfur (vs. Arabs), Sunnis if you're Shiite and vice versa, Kurd if you're Arab, Hindu if you're Tamil and vice versa, Catholic if you're Protestant and vice versa (well, that's a bit past except in Ireland) and even nowadays non-white (Hispanic included) if you're white, the list is endless. Do I detect some ethno-centrism here? Just a question, not a criticism. I tend to be quite ethnocentric myself. http://www.avenueviet.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_mrgreen.gif

Well, it's pretty much everything. The bridge collapsing, the murders, the people within the government having serious problems....:(

That's a good point about there not being many ethnic minorities in the series - is there a thread on this by the way?

Not that I know of, though there are bits and pieces of discussion on the subject here and there. I'll try to open one myself and hope the moderators don't zap it.

That subject is one of my pet peeves (that, and something entirely different, the fact that somehow Wormtail was Sorted into Gryffindor). :grumble:

Sorry to diverge from the thrust of this thread, but I already posted my views re: the "obvious references" to WW2, the Nazis and anti-Semitism. I don't think the Germans were particularly targeted here, nor the Jews for that matter, just any kind of intolerance to what is "different". It's a characteristic of the narrow-minded, the best example of which is "dear" Umbridge. Voldie is different, he has a grander scheme in mind. Umbridge is just petty, but then that's the way she is.

Sorry to diverge from the thrust of this thread, but I already posted my views re: the "obvious references" to WW2, the Nazis and anti-Semitism. I don't think the Germans were particularly targeted here, nor the Jews for that matter, just any kind of intolerance to what is "different". It's a characteristic of the narrow-minded, the best example of which is "dear" Umbridge. Voldie is different, he has a grander scheme in mind. Umbridge is just petty, but then that's the way she is.


I agree, I don't think that it was just a metaphor for world war II. There's so much going on in the world today that is reminiscent of World War II that I think JKR is making a point by putting it into her books that it is still going on unfortunately and no one seems to be learning.

If you think about it even, the genocide in Rwanda happened in 1994, two years before PS was even published, so Rwanda could have more to do with it than World War II and the Nazis. Unfortunately there's still so much going on that any kind of atrocity could be linked to the books.

I agree, I don't think that it was just a metaphor for world war II. There's so much going on in the world today that is reminiscent of World War II that I think JKR is making a point by putting it into her books that it is still going on unfortunately and no one seems to be learning.

If you think about it even, the genocide in Rwanda happened in 1994, two years before PS was even published, so Rwanda could have more to do with it than World War II and the Nazis. Unfortunately there's still so much going on that any kind of atrocity could be linked to the books.

Never mind Rwanda over 10 years ago, or Biafra over 40 years ago (anyone remember Biafra? Those under 40 may not even have heard of it) - look at Darfur today. Look at the Chinese occupation of Tibet, look at how Mugabe is treating the White community in Zimbabwe...

So, I repeat, the thread starter may have been oversensitive. I think Grindenwald's name sounding German is just a coincidence. The other "bad guys" have Russian sounding names, and no one has raised up Stalin and the Gulags...

Mariebeth, I totally agree with your conclusion.

I did notice the references to WWII, the Nazis, and ethnic cleansing. I don't agree with those events, people, and concepts. However, that does not mean I disapprove of Jo's parallels in HP to them.

She's making a point. Several, actually. Making those parallels made her points stronger and gave readers something new based off of something else we already know.

She knows that the references to events and people of WWII make some readers uncomfortable, but will it make people see that it needs to stop? Will people be uncomfortable enough to make a change?

I'm interested that a number of people felt offended with the obvious WWII references, for reasons that never occurred to me before. I really still believe nobody was offended. Also I don't see the references to 'Germans' or 'Germany', but I see it as 'another' WWII reference in literature. That sits uncomfortable with me. In my opinion these references are overused and so deny their function as also can't convey anything from history. Especially the latter sits uncomfortable with me.

Mariebeth, I totally agree with your conclusion.


Thanks :tu:

From interviews I've read and what i've learnt about JKR, i think, in my honest opinion, that she has written this storyline into the books because it's something that she's interested in, in terms of trying to encourage people not to repeat the same crimes that people have been carrying out for centuries. I don't think that it was to offend anyone.

After all the books were essentially written for children, i don't think that she honestly expected so many older readers, who would analyse things the way we do :lol: or who would immediately link the storyline to things like World War II, Rwanda, Darfur, Tibet etc.

So, I repeat, the thread starter may have been oversensitive. I think Grindenwald's name sounding German is just a coincidence. The other "bad guys" have Russian sounding names, and no one has raised up Stalin and the Gulags...

Grindelwald's wife or landlady spoke German in the book and his prison is called Nurmengard, which sounds very Germanic and is a reference to similar institutions during WWII. I don't think that the references are very subtle at all.

I really still believe nobody was offended. Also I don't see the references to 'Germans' or 'Germany', but I see it as 'another' WWII reference in literature. That sits uncomfortable with me. In my opinion these references are overused and so deny their function as also can't convey anything from history. Especially the latter sits uncomfortable with me.


I wholeheartedly agree.

It's funny (not funny "haha", funny "strange") how we are sensitive about things that hit close to us. I actually hadn't made the connection with Nazism and "ethnic cleansing" (a term that came about much later) until you mentioned it. Then of course it jumped out at me, but it didn't upset me too much. There's been ethnic cleansing elsewhere than in Nazi camps, look at the former Yugoslavia in the late 1990's and look at Darfur now. Look at the Armenian genocide, or the Kurdish genocide, or Rwanda, or - does anyone even remember it? - Biafra.

One of my favorite subjects is ancient history. There is far more in the history of humans than the last hundred years and most of that history did not involve Northern Europe. And though the events of last century looms large in the minds of many, I don't think JKR was writing a specific allegory to WWII any more than J.R.R. Tolkien did in Lord of the Rings. What they've tapped into is something deeper that leads to the kinds of things that did happen. For example, what is it about Voldemort that makes him evil? And though we can find allegories in WWII, we can find them in other places and in other times throughout history.

As this IS classified a children's story, who in their pre-and early teens are really going to know the horrors of the Holocaust? I personally consider this story to be one of the best to help children develop a good moral compass so that, hopefully, they will not allow such things to happen in the future.

I know someone else has mentioned that they see such things going on now in America. Back in 2004 when I finally got around to reading the books, I didn't see Nazi Germany, per se, in its pages, I saw America and what it is becoming, but then, I also know the hallmarks of what happened in Germany in the early 1930s prior to the invasion of Poland and I see all those things going on now in America. And before anyone jumps on me, I got lots of references if you want them.

The "funny" thing is that what I'm upset about is how ethnic minorities (I'm Asian myself) have secondary roles in the series, just there for "local color" and to prove how broad-minded the Wizarding community is. But, apart from Kingsley becoming Acting Minister of Magic (in sort of a throwaway line that some people missed), all the ethnic minority characters sort of disappear, fade into the background, then oblivion. Sorry for repeating myself, but look at Cho, the only one who gets a little more than five minutes' attention. She's elbowed away without ceremony at the end, by a white girl using another white girl to put the Asian where she belongs, on the sidelines. Then you hear no more about her at all, whether she survives or not, what becomes of her if she does. :grumble:

I'm half-Japanese half-caucasian so I saw those same things. In this particular story I wasn't too bothered by it as I don't think the development of moral character is exclusive to one group as opposed to another.

In general, I think people see what they know, what they are familiar with. The more you have to draw on, the more you see. Most people have no idea how much of Confucian philosophy is in the Harry Potter books or that Harry's sacrifice can also be seen as a ritual in the Brahmanas (very early text in India on rituals) involving Prajapati whereby the sacrificer becomes the master of death in the same way Harry does. These may very well be unintentional but I see them nonetheless. My point is just that the more you know the more you see.

Biafra? Do you mean Jello Biafra, from the band, The Dead Kennedys?

Actually I do remember people starving in Biafra, the point of the "jello" joke, I would assume.

As for the WW II/Nazi metaphor being overused, the question is whether over use means it should not be used even if used well, and to a point. JKR obviously wanted to suggest that contemporary society is not as far removed from the Nazis as we would like to think, but also their archetypical evil is naturally repeated by others who have the same goals, or even simply don't appreciate what they are doing. JKR is trying to get her readers to appreciate what some of their parents may not.

I think JKR intentionally modeled the pure-blood/muggle-born persecution on the Nazi/Jew persecution. It's not an accident, or a coincidence, or a subtle reference. It's blatant and obvious. Other people have mentioned the other Nazi references, so I just wanted to add one more.

In her notebooks, JKR created a roster list of every student at Hogwarts. Next to each student's name, she only put the most essential information: Name, House, and Blood Status. Blood status was represented with a symbol - Purebloods & Halfbloods got a Star of David, muggle-borns got an M. She said that she looked at Nazi rosters, where they would list the purity of blood of each person & that this inspired her depiction of the Death Eater ideology.

Death Eaters = Nazis. It's an obvious & blatant reference & it made me uncomfortable too. The Holocaust is such a world-changing, horrible, unthinkable event that I don't really feel comfortable w/someone evoking it in a fantasy series.

JKR's quote also sat uncomfortably with me: "He asked about Grindelwald. He said, "Is it coincidence that he died in 1945," and I said no. It amuses me to make allusions to things that were happening in the Muggle world, so my feeling would be that while there's a global Muggle war going on, there's also a global wizarding war going on."

So she chose Grindelwald's defeat to match the date of Hitler's defeat. And that's amusing? Also, on the WOMBAT test there was a question about wizards helping out the Allies during World War II. Just... don't even go there. It seems to trivialize something that should not be trivialized.

I thought that JKR was using Grindelwald and WWII to illustrate that big problems in the wizarding world bleed over to the muggle world and have effects there, in the same way that the muggle Prime Minister is informed in OotP. This was to show that Grindelwald was as serious a threat as Voldemort and easily illustrate Dumbledore's power.

The references to WWII are quite obvious but JKR is making these to try and show the horror of both the Nazis and Voldemort, as well as authoritarian fascism in general. I think those who say they find it uncomfortable are being over-sensitive, she is not belittling the events she is using them to illustrate her point as many other authors have and will do

The references to WWII are quite obvious but JKR is making these to try and show the horror of both the Nazis and Voldemort, as well as authoritarian fascism in general. I think those who say they find it uncomfortable are being over-sensitive, she is not belittling the events she is using them to illustrate her point as many other authors have and will doI agree with you actually that she does it in a reasonable way - not as many others who wear off the references quite often. Still - and you say it yourself - there are many authors who illustrate their point with WWII references. I feel very uncomfortable with both the number of authors who do and the way it is done. Illustrating a fictional story with real and in this case horrible events is not easy. There was a huge discussions once if it should be allowed to show the Holocaust in art at all. I think it should be. But I do feel uncomfortable when so many authors use these events for illustration only. It takes away the effect and it does not help getting any better understanding for history. I do not think it is the bad. I do not think it should be forbidden. But I definitely - like the thread title says - feel uncomfortable with it.

I do think when historic events are directly referred to in fictional works that it's extremely important for the authors to retain accuracy in their descriptions of such events. What we have in Deathly Hallows and also in the earlier books beginning in Chamber of Secrets is slightly different as it's more like allusions to the kind of racial snobbery and the events it lead to that paralell historic events rather than direct historic event paralells.

Still I can understand why such referances are more remeniscent of WW2 than other historical events. I'm a similar age to Jo and my own parents survived WW2 in Britain so I grew up in a household that, despite being distanced from the events of WW2, was very much aware of them and their place in my own family's history. I could well imagine Jo, like many people of our generation of British decent, being in a similar position.

The funny thing in all this is that many countries bash Germany history, and Hitler, and Nazis as the biggest evil happened in the world::: and they are exactly the same right now as racist, intolerant, and xenophobic and all that.
Which is the best country of the world, the best race, the best language, the best "accent", the best color of eyes, the best color of hair: Look, the same as Nazis, but they bash Nazis and Hitler as evil, and are they are all the same.

Nazis are still here in our actual times, and they are in many others countries and cultures. Just have a disguise, but they are depp inside the same.

So, Death Eaters, Voldemort and all that in HP are quite suitable for many other countries and leaders, and racist people, but Germans and Hitler.

I think a number of people have made excellent points on this during the discussion so far.

When I first read the series, I kept thinking that there were strong references to WW2 in there as well, but by now, I do think that they are equally valid for a number of other totalitarian regimes. I think most of us tend to think of WW2 first because it is very present in our minds. Most people have some personal connection to this dreadful period, be it older relatives who fought in the war or maybe having lost loved ones.

I can understand why many people feel uncomfortable about the references. Yet I don't think it's wrong to make such allegories in a piece of fiction. If you look at this thread and the large number of replies, it's obvious that it gets people thinking, it makes people discuss these topics thus raising awareness. If thinking about injustice, prosecuting people for insignificant reasons and discrimination makes only one person stand up against these things or defend someone who is threatened, it was in my opinion worth it.

So, Death Eaters, Voldemort and all that in HP are quite suitable for many other countries and leaders, and racist people, but Germans and Hitler.

If by "but Germans and Hitler" you mean "besides Germans and Hitler", I totally agree with you. It could be any totalitarian regime. It could be South Africa under apartheid for example. It could be the USA before the civil rights movement, when miscegenation was punishable by law, when segregation was the rule. It could be what the Chinese are doing in Tibet.

I'm siding with the people who think that Germans were not specifically targeted as such. You have Grindelvald, you also have Gregorovitch, Dolohov, Karkaroff, the latter not being Germanic names. Nurmengard could be Nordic - actually reminds me more of Isengard in Lord of the Rings than it reminds me of anything Germanic.

I'm not uncomfortable with it, I think Jo made a point about good and evil, and the evils of discrimination and segregation, irrespective of the historical or contemporary parallels. Like someone else said before in this thread, it's a good way for kids to learn about the evil of discrimination based on a difference, "real" or perceived.

The resemblance to WWII was one of the first things I noticed in the book, and honestly, as somebody who loves history, I think it made the book a lot more interesting. I heard an interview in which JKR said the references weren't intentional, but I can't see how that would be, with the Muggle-Born Registration Committee, the propaganda pamphlets, the quick takeover of the Ministry by Death Eaters, even the fact that this is the Second Wizard War.

I'd never heard about JKR using the system that MarieNC mentioned but it makes things all the more interesting. The obvious allusions didn't make me uncomfortable, and as it's been said before, ethnic cleansing situations have taken place in many other situations than Nazi Germany. It's gotten us talking, and it got the people around me while we were reading it talking. We are so removed from situations like that today-- even though they still take place, though not on as a large or publicized scale-- and I think it's important for the younger people that are going to be reading the HP books to be familiar with the wrongness in beliefs like those of the Death Eaters in the book.

I heard an interview in which JKR said the references weren't intentional, but I can't see how that would be, with the Muggle-Born Registration Committee, the propaganda pamphlets, the quick takeover of the Ministry by Death Eaters, even the fact that this is the Second Wizard War.The connection between Grindelwald and Hitler is what stood out most in my mind - the fact that the time of their reigns seems very similar (not that they were the same person, but it seems there could have been two wars going on at that time: one in the wizarding world and one in the muggle world). I hadn't really thought about any of the other connections (like the propaganda pamphets pointed out in the quote above), but it does seem to fit. I hadn't heard that Rowling had said these references were unintentional, that's interesting.

This can be a very touchy subject for some, but I had to say this: Hitler and Grindelwald were similar, sort of. They both wanted to drive out people they didn't think were good enough (Jews and Muggles), and killed many, many people over it. Also, they are considered by some, myself included, to both be the second Darkest person of all time. In HP, 1. Voldemort, 2. Grindelwald.
Human world- (THIS IS JUST MY OPINION!) 1. Hussien 2. Hitler
Coincidence? Hmm....
Also, they both gave up their lives willingly. Hitler killed himself, and Grindelwald gladly let Voldy kill him.
What do you think?

I think one of the interesting aspects of comparing the regimes of Hitler, Voldemort and Grindelwald was how they came to such political prominence in the first place. We know almost nothing about Grindelwald's regime only that he was defeated by Dumbledore in 1945 and subsequently imprisoned. There were concentration camps of a sort under him as he wound up in one but we don't know how these were used or intended to be used so until Jo fills out the background a bit he'll remain something of an enigma.

Voldemort is little more than a psychotic megalomaniac, a very similar character to Hitler and some part of the wizarding population seemed to if not accept at least tolerate his ideas. It's mentioned in OOTP if I recall correctly that the Black family while publically not backing him privately thought he had 'the right idea'.

Historically Hitler's rise in Germany can be at least partially attributed to the treaty of Versailles and the harsh war reparations that followed it. Germany in the 1920s, like the rest of the world, was in economic depression but it's government and people were far worse off than any other country. They were nationally bankrupt with massive unemployment, much higher than Britain or the US at the time. Hitler spawned his elitist and prejudiced movement by offering his people reasons to believe they were better than others where Voldemort came from the opposite direction in a way, he played to people that already believed in their superiority.

I'm kind of hoping that Jo may go into some more detail about Grindelwald's history so we can have some more frames of referance to look into.

The connection between Grindelwald and Hitler is what stood out most in my mind - the fact that the time of their reigns seems very similar (not that they were the same person, but it seems there could have been two wars going on at that time: one in the wizarding world and one in the muggle world).

Strangely enough I never made the Grindelwald/Hitler connection until after I read the book, it was more what was going on in the wizarding world in the present that made me think of WWII.

Certainly here in the UK, racism is a key social issue and one that grows in complexity as it becomes ever more conflated with questions of religious and cultural compatability. I therefore think it was a good issue to address in HP and on the whole I think the blood status metaphor works well. I particularly liked the way it was originally introduced as a case of petty schoolyard name calling, and then we gradually see the greater consequences as the same attitude permeates up through the political system.

Apart from a fleeting reference to a salute at the start of DH, I don’t see much to suggest that Voldemort’s Death Eaters specifically represent Nazis as opposed to any other totalitarian regime with a racist agenda. Earlier on the thread, someone argued that the Death Eaters were uniquely identified as Nazis by eugenics, but I don’t think that aspect comes through very strongly in HP. In the HP context, the eugenic idea would be that, by keeping the genes pure-blood, wizards would evolve to a higher level of magical potency. While such a theory would make sense and could certainly be inferred, I don’t think it’s stated all that much, and in fact the objection to muggle-borns seems to be more to do with resentment over the infiltration of wizarding society and culture by perceived outsiders.

It seems to me that the specific Nazi references in HP are more apparent in the peripheral story of Grindelwald rather than in the central story of Voldemort. As has been discussed, the wand, the symbol, the prison, the dates and the nationality all have a certain resonance to them. Some have queried why JKR couldn’t have made up her own back story rather than pinching one from history, but actually its pretty typical of her style to lift whole chunks from elsewhere. For example, Nicholas Flamel and the Philosophers Stone is an existing legend, and locations, such as Kings Cross station and Tottenham Court Road, are real places rather than constructs of her imagination.

Having said that, the consistency of the style is perhaps insufficient to justify the use of these Nazi references. Perhaps the problem is that, in lifting a number of ideas from elsewhere in the manner just described, JKR has blurred the boundaries between fantasy and history, thereby opening up the possible implication that Grindelwald was a Nazi and not just a metaphor for one. I don’t think that was the intention, but I can see how people could be offended by it.

Human world- (THIS IS JUST MY OPINION!) 1. Hussien 2. Hitler
Coincidence? Hmm....
Also, they both gave up their lives willingly. Hitler killed himself, and Grindelwald gladly let Voldy kill him.
What do you think?

The suicide thing is a bit of a stretch and Hussein hardly makes the top 10 despots which is OT so I'll leave it at that.

I wasnt worried by it, in fact, I thought that it was good, it made it more realistic. Its not just a reference to WW2, its a reference to racisum as well. It happens all over the world, even today. Many people think they are better than others because of where they are from, how much money they have, the colour of their skin, their religious views etc. Thats the way the muggle world is, so why would the magical world be any different?

I think that if we forget the past we are destined to repeat it.

Yeah, but then Grindelwald didn't actively kill the muggles, just wish to enslave them, as in put them into a slightly lower socio-economic caste than wizards. Whereas Voldemort was definitely into the whole purification by genocide thing. And lets not forget the Wand of Destiny, or, in real life, Spear of Destiny, which would supposedly make the wielder immortal.

I actually had a WWII analogy to HP even before HBP came out. It didn't suprise me at all, and I always felt that Voldemort was the Wizard's World Hitler.

Well, first of all, I love Germany, amazing country and I have visited it more often than I can count. But Germany has a history, dark past which they are not so proud of. Everyone can understand that. But what happened in Germany, the Soviet union, Itlay and Spain must not be forgotten. What these countries are now is not what they were then- they have dealt with these problems.

As come to think of it, you can say that Dumbledore is an allegoriy for countries like Germany. He fell in love with wrong ideas, just like Germans did when Adolf Hitler came with his ideas. For him it was a brilliant plan but then got a serious wake-up call, something major happened and he woke up, saw that this wasn't right. He fought against the evil and in the end he won the fight. His history, his dark past, that he fell in love with something dangerous and he realized that was wrong- this made Dumbledore what he was and became- a wonderful, brilliant man who had loved and lost. Just like Germany. Dark past, but look at it now! Just a wonderful country who only want to help and don't support war fx.. The dark past made Germany to what it is now and this past is history and it must not be forgotten.

Don't forget the past, learn from it and live with it.

I did see a huge amount of parallels between Nazi Germany and Voldemort's regime. It didn't bother me, though: I thought it added some depth to the book. That being said, it would have been nice if both of the bad guys weren't German.

WWII is part of what makes us as the world who we are.I think the subject should be addressed with care but it is important not to forget what did happen, and we need to discuss what allowed that to happen, and what can we do to keep it from happening again. I live in the Southern US. I am not proud of many rich southerners at one time did own slaves as well as many rich northerners, but we must face the truth as it happened, and discuss it. I can understand how anyone who is German might feel that any discussion about WWII will cause people to view them in a bad light, but I assure you that people will no more view you as what your past country have done as they would southerners, and if they do, then I am sure we can remind them that we all have things in our families', cities', states', and countries' past that we can all look at in horror.

Many have echoed the same sentiments: History is like looking into a mirror. Look to the past to see the present and the future. Bigotry, absolutism, totalitarianism are all evils that didn't end with the new millennium; in fact we deal with it today in the 21st century, and we'll still be dealing with them the 22nd century.

It's easy for me to say, but maintaining perspective about educating the world as a whole through these novels, teaching current and future generations about hate sponsored through political means, might make the German parallels more easier to swallow. As a teacher I hear teenagers refer to Nazism and the Holocaust as something that could never happen again. I served in the Army and was attached to the UN and saw ethnic cleansing in the early 90's with my own eyes in the Bosnia conflict. You also see it in Africa today and unfortunately we'll also see it in the future.

Educating young people about the evils of racism and hatred, and teaching young people to be aware of their personal political beliefs as well as encouraging them to be active in their representative goverment is a step in the right direction. Another is the realization that the past often repeats itself and that the future is theirs to make. Jo does a great thing by taking advantage of her ridiculously popular novels to get people talking and thinking.

WWII is part of what makes us as the world who we are.I think the subject should be addressed with care but it is important not to forget what did happen, and we need to discuss what allowed that to happen, and what can we do to keep it from happening again. I live in the Southern US. I am not proud of many rich southerners at one time did own slaves as well as many rich northerners, but we must face the truth as it happened, and discuss it. I can understand how anyone who is German might feel that any discussion about WWII will cause people to view them in a bad light, but I assure you that people will no more view you as what your past country have done as they would southerners, and if they do, then I am sure we can remind them that we all have things in our families', cities', states', and countries' past that we can all look at in horror.

And I can assure you that I haven't met any German who was afraid of being viewed in a bad light. My worries are that the horrors that are connected with WWII are being trivialised by being used as the ultimate evil whenever literature or film needs a background for their villains. What happened in Germany during WWII was unrivalled in its cruelty and we should make sure not to take away from this by using it whenever we want to say that something was bad. There are many inhuman regimes all around the world, they are still in existence. It did not all end with WWII.

And I can assure you that I haven't met any German who was afraid of being viewed in a bad light. My worries are that the horrors that are connected with WWII are being trivialised by being used as the ultimate evil whenever literature or film needs a background for their villains. What happened in Germany during WWII was unrivalled in its cruelty and we should make sure not to take away from this by using it whenever we want to say that something was bad. There are many inhuman regimes all around the world, they are still in existence. It did not all end with WWII.

I am sorry if I misunderstood your concern. It is a horrible fact in this world that evil is never truly destroyed. Ultimate evil to me is the idea of innocent people being killed because of intolerance of other people, especially when other people stand by and let it happen. That was true with many situations in history, and we as a people always fail to stop it happening again. Being a Southerner I will speak of the Slavery. As you state the horrors did not end when you think they would have, at the end of the civil war. To some it has been passed down even now to their children where they have quietly kept their hate, and ignorance, and told their children to be proud of these thoughts, because it means you are better than they are. I can only hope that when slavery and it's horrors are discussed even in only a slight and passing way, that a little bit of light and knowledge is given to someone, that may grow later. Every bit of light, even ones that may be trivial, can add to the overall knowledge of these horrors committed by people who were only doing the easy thing of going along with the crowd, other then doing the right thing of finding out the real truth, and making sure all could see and know it.

I don't think it's meant to be an attack on Germans, i'll be honest, i didn't realise Grindelwald and Gregorovitch WERE German, i thought they were Bulgarian, because Gregorovitch made Krums wand didn't he?
Also, whilst i did see some references to WWII, i think that they are what JK referred to, because it is probably something she feels she has more understanding of. WWII is, in my opinion, the worst thing England has been involved in. It is something we are taught about throughout our schooling, and for those of us who were able, it is something we have discussed with relatives who were involved. For example, JK would most like have had family involved in the war, therefore bringing it closer to home for her, and would have been something that, intentional or not, would definitely have influenced her greatly.
Obviously, i don't know her personally, but i'm sure that the majority of you will have knwon someone who had relatives in the war, or probably would have had your own relatives in the war. I just feel tht she referenced it because, if she made it about something else, most of the children the books are aimed at, would not make the connection.

I did see a huge amount of parallels between Nazi Germany and Voldemort's regime. It didn't bother me, though: I thought it added some depth to the book. That being said, it would have been nice if both of the bad guys weren't German.

How is Tom Riddle, a British boy descended from a long line of British witches and wizards and a respectable upper class British Muggle, German? Even Grindelwald may not be - Durmstrang is attended by other nationalities (Krum, for example, is Bulgarian). His name is linguistically German, that's about all we can say.

My worries are that the horrors that are connected with WWII are being trivialised by being used as the ultimate evil whenever literature or film needs a background for their villains.

The parallels between the Voldemort regime and the Nazis seemed to me not to be of that variety, but rather similarities of substance that would cause a reader familiar with history to associate the two because of their similarities. Any racist regime under Voldemort would, in my view, create the same associations. A weak government was subverted by a violent organization with racist aims, which proceeded to terrorise a segment of the population. Nazi Germany jumps to mind because it is "the" example of this in RL.

Even Grindelwald may not be - Durmstrang is attended by other nationalities (Krum, for example, is Bulgarian). His name is linguistically German, that's about all we can say.Additionally the language spoken in the household was German - but we don't know who the woman exactly was as far as I know.

I don't think it's meant to be an attack on Germans, i'll be honest, i didn't realise Grindelwald and Gregorovitch WERE German, i thought they were Bulgarian, because Gregorovitch made Krums wand didn't he?
I don't think anyone believes JK attacks Germans. I would like to make a difference between speaking about WWII issues and nowadays Germany.

In my opinion WWII references are still overused in literature and movies when it comes to show the 'most evil'. There are older references to evilness in all cultures, which get completely covered by the Nazi-label, which seems to get used not rarely in an almost commercial way. I don't believe it helps to get a grip on what happened, actually I believe it acts against it. These references are so often used for a better understanding of a literal plot, but not for helping not to forget what happened from 1939 to 1945.

Its not that I'm completely against it, but rotsiepots worded it fine when she started the thread: it just really sits uncomfortable with me.

I don't think she compared all Germans to evil; rather the evil regime and the horrors Hitler perpetuated to Voldemot's period as the Dark Lord both the first and second wars, where he kills just because he can (Cedric) and he is always about blood purity, he has a mania about it, making clear that those who are not pure blood, deserve to die.

Voldemort, Bellatrix, and others were not German, they were wholly British, though!

I don't think she compared all Germans to evil; rather the evil regime and the horrors Hitler perpetuated to Voldemot's period as the Dark Lord both the first and second wars, where he kills just because he can (Cedric) and he is always about blood purity, he has a mania about it, making clear that those who are not pure blood, deserve to die.

Voldemort, Bellatrix, and others were not German, they were wholly British, though!Yep, I agree here. JK compares Death Eaters with the Nazi ideology, not with a today's nation - although she uses references to German to support these references in my opinion. Still I don't feel comfortable with it. In her series actually its closer to many references we see in other books and movies, which often seem to come quite out of the blue whenever an 'most evil measure' is needed.
JK actually writes about war, blood purity and power about others, what is close to one part of what happened during German dictatorship. Its maybe more that I feel its overdone in general, that I really could blame JK for including it in her series as well. :lol:

In my opinion WWII references are still overused in literature and movies when it comes to show the 'most evil'. There are older references to evilness in all cultures, which get completely covered by the Nazi-label, which seems to get used not rarely in an almost commercial way.
That's a fair comment though I disagree that the references are as overused as people might think. I feel that it would be fair to say that any literary, cinematic or televised work that depicts an authoritarian regime that discriminates against groups within the community will be compared to Nazi Germany by most readers / viewers. It comes down IMO to historical prominence and remembrance. In a lot of ways Nazis have become a universal term for any regime of that sort much in the same way as some brand names have come to be descriptions for the type of product even those that aren't made by them. There's a word for that but I can't recall what it is. :whistle:

Its not that I'm completely against it, but rotsiepots worded it fine when she started the thread: it just really sits uncomfortable with me.
I said near the beginning of this thread that I can understand how the subject can be felt more deeply by those of Germanic decent but I still believe that's a bit of an overreaction, though an understandable one, to this.