References to WWII

That's a fair comment though I disagree that the references are as overused as people might think. I feel that it would be fair to say that any literary, cinematic or televised work that depicts an authoritarian regime that discriminates against groups within the community will be compared to Nazi Germany by most readers / viewers. It comes down IMO to historical prominence and remembrance. In a lot of ways Nazis have become a universal term for any regime of that sort much in the same way as some brand names have come to be descriptions for the type of product even those that aren't made by them. There's a word for that but I can't recall what it is. Sure, I agree about the historical prominence - but I think this prominence is kind of abused in the meantime. Its exactly this time as universal term which sits uncomfortable with me, because it gets lost what actually happened and how we prepare to not let anything like this happen again.
Nazis are just 'there' as being evil. I don't think this will work in the long run to keep things in memory.

I said near the beginning of this thread that I can understand how the subject can be felt more deeply by those of Germanic decent but I still believe that's a bit of an overreaction, though an understandable one, to this.I think Germans are more aware of the many references in today's movies. I really hardly know one where is none (often a site comment only, but that is what worries me).

I'm not sure whether it is over-reaction (but admit I can't judge this from my perspective), because I don't think younger Germans are any affected of collective guilt feelings, and many have no close relation to their country. Exceptions from the norm given. Right now one just doesn't insult a German when Germany is insulted. This, of course, is a heritage of Germany's past, but its nothing Germans are very aware of unless they compare their (often less advanced) patriotism with others.

To bring it back on Harry Potter this is one of the reasons why I don't think any German would feel offended by any references. Dealing with the past is no tabu in Germany, its not that people get reminded on anything they have forgotten about.

The reason why so many of the repeated references in literature and movies sit uncomfortable with me is that the topic is used not for historical education, but for getting more debts into a fictional plot. The latter is fine, but in my opinion not when done without the first.
I said before I don't think JK pasted her WWII references in that simple way I describe now. But due to seeing it done that rather commercial way very often before, I no more react to the references as the author may have expected. I don't start to think of the debts and the horror of Nazitime in comparison with Death Eaters when I read about Grindelwald likely being German. In fact I feel uncomfortable with seeing the topic disposed in a rush again. I don't think that's fair to the topic, which indeed shall be remembered.

The reason why so many of the repeated references in literature and movies sit uncomfortable with me is that the topic is used not for historical education, but for getting more debts into a fictional plot. The latter is fine, but in my opinion not when done without the first.

I think that pretty much all works of fiction that is based on this line of subject follows both the factors - one cannot work without the other. I believe JKR was doing just that - incorporating prejudiced beliefs for the purpose of the plot, thereby teaching a valuable lesson at the end.

But due to seeing it done that rather commercial way very often before, I no more react to the references as the author may have expected. I don't start to think of the debts and the horror of Nazitime in comparison with Death Eaters when I read about Grindelwald likely being German.

Perfectly understandable. I doubt JKR had deliberately made Grindelwald a German in order to draw such a parallel. However, the name of the prison, Nurmengard, is I believe a direct reference to the Nuremberg trials. JKR's intentions were to mainly draw a frame of reference as to how such a regime usually works. The Death Eaters were meant to resemble Nazi stooges and every other activists and followers of a similar or exact regime in terms of their activities, that is following orders from a crazed leader and even believing such prejudices themselves.

How is Tom Riddle, a British boy descended from a long line of British witches and wizards and a respectable upper class British Muggle, German? Even Grindelwald may not be - Durmstrang is attended by other nationalities (Krum, for example, is Bulgarian). His name is linguistically German, that's about all we can say.

Yes, I don't get the "both bad guys" are German. http://www.avenueviet.com/forums/images/smiles/confused.gif Others have already pointed out all the Death Eaters plus Tom Riddle who are British.

I agree about the name. Grindenwald could be an Alsatian (i.e. Frenchman) living in Germany for all we know.

I think the person who started this thread is a bit oversensitive. :) I actually didn't make the "obvious" connection to WW2 until my attention was called to it. There are plenty of countries in the world who - unfortunately - are very much into the "purity of the race" and ethnic cleansing thing. :(

"Did the obvious references to WWII sit uncomfortably with anyone else"

no. Book 1 refers to Grindelwald's defeat in 1945. then in Book 7
we find out that the Wizarding World bugged Dumbledore for about
5 years to go stop his old buddy, Grindy.

i find it oddly refreshing to escape into a world where the main
bad guy has committed a 1000 terrible crimes. it doesn't say
how many people he killed.

but, compared to the real world, where Madeleine Albright
said "it's worth it", when told that sanctions would lead to
the death of a 1/2 million Iraqi people, or the current war,
where Doctors without Borders puts the death toll at 1.2
million and the homeless count at 4.5 million ... it almost
makes Voldemort look like a nice guy, compared to George
Bush.

I don't know if it has been said before (I've just discovered this thread, and I didn't read everything), but I thought the much more obvious parallel between World War II and HP7 was not Grindelwald, but the Muggle-Born registration commission.

When I saw the pamphlet about "Mudbloods - and the dangers they present" I immediately thought of the Nazi slogan "Die Juden sind unser Unglück" (meaning something like "The Jews are our downfall"). And in Nazi Germany, all Germans had to provide family trees, to prove they had no Jewish ancestry. Umbridge would have loved supervising this job.

I believe J.K.Rowling said in an interview that she had that in mind too.
After having read HP7 I visualized Umbridge being sentenced by a trial that resembled the Nuremberg trials after World War II.

Yep, I agree here. JK compares Death Eaters with the Nazi ideology, not with a today's nation - although she uses references to German to support these references in my opinion. Still I don't feel comfortable with it. In her series actually its closer to many references we see in other books and movies, which often seem to come quite out of the blue whenever an 'most evil measure' is needed. JK actually writes about war, blood purity and power about others, what is close to one part of what happened during German dictatorship. Its maybe more that I feel its overdone in general, that I really could blame JK for including it in her series as well. It seems to me that authors model their evil regimes after real life ones mostly because it's a convenient model. But I think placing it in a fantasy book somehow cheapens the real life events, which were more horrible than ever could be covered in the scope of something like HP or star wars or any other fiction that models after WWII and the Holocaust.

It seems to me that authors model their evil regimes after real life ones mostly because it's a convenient model. But I think placing it in a fantasy book somehow cheapens the real life events, which were more horrible than ever could be covered in the scope of something like HP or star wars or any other fiction that models after WWII and the Holocaust.

Works of fantasy can go only so far to depict the exact features of WWII and the Holocaust. I doubt that JKR was aiming to create an exact copy of the Nazi regime but she did follow a similar model, like a lot of other works of fiction that follow that literary pattern, and structured it in a way that is appropriate for all ages but also highlighting the crippling factors and issues that can destroy a nation and its people.

Remember when that theory floated around about Grindelwald being Hitler? Its pretty obvious Rowling thought this series out as a parallel to WWII, thats why some people criticize the series for not taking place in the 40s as opposed to the present day, to give a sense that the Muggle and Wizarding world are more alike then different. Voldemort, I must say, is alot like Hitler. Hitler wasn't a very good stratagist, he was evil of course, and intelligent, but he wasn't great at tactics. Just as Voldemort made several fallacies in trying to get Harry.

Of course they sit uncomfortably. They should with anyone, but it is a necessary parrallel.
Although comparisons can be drawn throughout history between the Nazi and other regimes (Romans, Black Slavery, Eastern European Ethnic Cleansing) the Nazi regime would be the "best" to choose.

I say this because it fits the bill better. It's the most documented, therefore the easiest for reader's to draw parrallel's with it.


I would also say that it could be plausible that Gregorovitch could well have had Hitler under the Imperious Curse. The timeline fits accordingly, and if he were German the theory would run rather well.

The only reference I caught was Potterwatch. Didn't they have stuff similar to this... certain radio stations were supporting one side more than the other and it was kind of keeping it secret so they wouldn't get in trouble?

Voldemort, I must say, is alot like Hitler. Hitler wasn't a very good stratagist, he was evil of course, and intelligent, but he wasn't great at tactics. Just as Voldemort made several fallacies in trying to get Harry.

Yes Voldemort's ideals seems to be along the same lines as Hitler's, and Grindelwald, with his "For the Greater Good" propaganda, was aimed more towards the ruling of muggles - it wasn't stated in the the book as to whether he had similar or exact prejudices as Voldemort, who was intolerant towards muggleborns and muggles alike. Two slightly different beliefs but following the same course of action, much like the Third Reich.

I couldn't help feeling this was overdone either, as it unfolded much too quickly! It is simply impossible that in the course of scarcely a few weeks, the policy has so dramatically changed!
In Germany there were years of propaganda so that the antisemitism was deeply entrenched in people's minds, but it has happened in Deathly Hallows in the course of a month, with serious trials and convictions by far too soon to be realistic.
These passages really did make me feel rather uncomfortable....

But maybe this is because I am German as well and can't judge impartially?

In GoF we see that Muggle baiting is a popular sport among a certain kind of Wizard and that that sort of Wizard was the kind drawn to the Death Eater organization in the first place -- people like the Gaunts and the Malfoys.

So it's not a question of 'just a few months.' The specific policies could be put in place so quickly because the attitudes about the inferiority and subject status of Muggles, Squibs, Elves, Goblins and Magical Creatures had been the norm for generations, as had the laws forbidding Goblins and Eves to own and use wands. The bureaucratic systems for Muggle relations and Creature control were already in place.

The same, sorry to say, was very much the case in Europe ... not just Germany ... for all of the 17th, 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries.

But where post War Europe set about uprooting the attitudes and customs that led to the Holocaust ... the Wizard World sings a rousing, but brief, of chorus of Ding Dong the Witch is Dead and goes back to Wandbearer Supremacy Politics as usual -- maybe modified to the extent, and for as long as Arthur Weasley's and Herminone Granger's the personal effort and influence made a difference.

Slytherin House and Family Malfoy seem to be no worse off at the end than they were at the beginning, after all.

In GoF we see that Muggle baiting is a popular sport among a certain kind of Wizard and that that sort of Wizard was the kind drawn to the Death Eater organization in the first place -- people like the Gaunts and the Malfoys.

So it's not a question of 'just a few months.' The specific policies could be put in place so quickly because the attitudes about the inferiority and subject status of Muggles, Squibs, Elves, Goblins and Magical Creatures had been the norm for generations, as had the laws forbidding Goblins and Eves to own and use wands. The bureaucratic systems for Muggle relations and Creature control were already in place.
That's true enough, it's fair to say right from the start of the books (see Harry's initial meeting with Draco in Philosopher's Stone) that this underlying prejudice has existed and we've seen in Chamber of Secrets, again through Draco's family ties, that this group is highly influential.

The same, sorry to say, was very much the case in Europe ... not just Germany ... for all of the 17th, 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries.
:agree:

But where post War Europe set about uprooting the attitudes and customs that led to the Holocaust ... the Wizard World sings a rousing, but brief, of chorus of Ding Dong the Witch is Dead and goes back to Wandbearer Supremacy Politics as usual -- maybe modified to the extent, and for as long as Arthur Weasley's and Herminone Granger's the personal effort and influence made a difference.
I'm not so sure about that, from what I've gathered from her interviews Jo has said that Harry and Ron, in their roles in law enforcement, Hermione as an advocate and Kingsley, as a genuine leader, have, between them, revolutionised wizarding society in the post Voldemort era.

Slytherin House and Family Malfoy seem to be no worse off at the end than they were at the beginning, after all.
They survived largely by choosing the winning side. Still their role in proceedings may have been forgiven by the legislators but I doubt it would have been forgotten by the populace at large and I suspect they'd have had a hard time.

Actually their situation may have shown another paralell, many German scientists, industrialists and the like went on to work for their former enemies after WW2.

Hi guys I consider myself a buff of world war 2, I read a reference that JKR in no span of coincidence that she set the defeat of Grindenwald (sp?) at 1945 the last part of world war 2...

-Paralel Lines-
Reading through DH there are certain passages that determine what they where after the so called greater good, this sounds like Nazism to me... Anyways with a creative mind one can draw parallels between Hitler and Grindewald, in fact it is no secret that the Nazi party dabbled in the occult.
Read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_mystic, I beleive there is a secret history of world war 2, (JKR makes no denial of the link). One scenario would be the Nazi's secretly teaming up with Grindenwald to establish their so called New World Order... Hence there is a parallel line between both worlds a so called shared ideology.

-Goals-
1. Grindenwald / Hitler: Establish a new world order for Germans and Pureblood Wizards
2. Dumbledore / Allied forces: To rally and stop to facists from accomplishing this, while keeping both worlds from coliding (A truly enormus task)

-A Secret War-

In the Potter Universe, World war 2 happened in a much grander scale as we can ever imagine, as the Allied forces fought in France, a war happened in a much grander scale in the middle of it... Dumbledore and Grindewald and the wizarding world at war...

As i see it a shadow war happened behind the main war using magic to prolong or win the war, but was thwarted by what I call the Allied Magical Forces (GB/USA/Free French and others) As the allied forces made their way through Occupied europe hidden in the background keeping more secretive than the OSS or British Inteligence, as many could remember the last battles of world war 2 was fought in the battle of berlin, personally I think the last confrontation of the European war was fought by Grindenwald and Dumbledore in Bavaria, thats why the americans and british forces gave berlin to the Russians, they had bigger fish to fry.

This is all for now... I am thinking of writing a world war 2 paralel fic starring maybe Dumbledore and Hagrid and some other characters. I could imagine the two dropping behind enemy lines... Their final target! Grindenwald.

And as for the Battle of britain? I still could imagine Wizards on broomsticks fighting it out like Spitfires vs. Messerchmidts.

Your thoughts on the matter.

personally, it didnt really bother me that much...and jk DID say that, in her fictional world, gellert contributed to the world war 2...or something like that...
i find that these kinds of references make her stroesi a lot more believable :))

personally, it didnt really bother me that much...and jk DID say that, in her fictional world, gellert contributed to the world war 2...or something like that...Do you remember where she said this? I'd be very interested in reading this quote.

i find that these kinds of references make her stroesi a lot more believable )I agree that the story is definitely made more beleivable with these references, but that the story credibility is gained at the great cost of cheapening the real life events.

I have mixed feelings about the references.

The Grindelwald story line is certainly meant to parallel WWII, and I think this is appropriate as it makes definite ties to the Muggle world. (I wonder if she took this cue from Hitler's preoccupation with the occult; definitely an interesting connection.) JKR's brand of fantasy is not supposed to be escapist, and she reminds us from the get go that magic is not a cure-all. It sets up just how closely linked the two worlds are, and in later books we see this in less obvious ways (I would argue that racism, classism, sexism, etc. are all mirrored directly in the series).

I'm not sure that Voldemort himself is meant as a parallel to Hitler in the way that many people view him. Most people who read the books and visit English-language fansite are familiar with Hitler's brand of racial cleansing but are less educated on the kinds of genocidal crises that take place outside of the Western world. I think Voldemort represents this kind of violence and terror in cases across history and around the world, not just in modern Europe. That said, I don't think drawing a connection to Hitler as a reader is necessarily a bad thing. If you are familiar with this real-world evil and it helps you to understand the points JKR makes about discrimination and violence, that's totally okay. That's how I read Voldemort initially, and I think it helped me get quite a lot from the books that I might not have if I didn't connect it to real-world events.

I think the argument that this minimizes the actual events is a valid one, though I don't think there is a straight answer. I study history (modern German and British history in particular), and I've been deeply interested in it, so even as a child I might have been less inclined than others to brush off these references or the events they refer to as merely fictional or in the past. I took the books a lot more seriously as a result, actually. I don't know if this is case for everyone.

It is troubling to me that the link between Voldemort and Hitler seems to cloud the idea that this sort of thing can happen anywhere. (Not to imply that the catastrophe that was the Holocaust couldn't happen anywhere other than Germany, that's just the feeling that a lot of people have.) It's a lot easier to write off these parallels as historical rather than looking at our own present day societies to find where injustices lay, which I think is what Jo is trying to accomplish with HP.

I agree that the story is definitely made more beleivable with these references, but that the story credibility is gained at the great cost of cheapening the real life events.This is what I agree with completely. Its why I sit uncomfortably with these references.

Aldawen-I think that part of JKR's point is that it can happen anywhere, even in a magical society. This underscores her point that magic (nor technology) can solve many of the problems of humanity. Ultimately we all face death, even wizards, and that is unavoidable, but difficult to accept, for anyone. And so becomes a source of conflict, anywhere.

While there are many alternative examples of human cruelty, if you are going to alude to them in a book to draw characters and situations, they need to be widely recognizable to the readers. Most people, at least in the US, are relatively ignorant of what goes on in the rest of the world, sometimes even in their name. Once children as readers are factored in, it makes it even more difficult. Next remember you want something which will be understood by children throughout the world, and your choices grow very slim.

I also disagree with the notion that any allusion to the suffering of World War II cheapens it. I think there are ways to due a diservice to those who suffered, for instance by using it as a mere backround for melodrama, or to use it to suggest a character is evil on par with the Nazis and Hitler, without bothering to make him that evil in the story, or to poorly use it as a metaphor for something quite different for which the author seeks to create a dislike. But I don't think JKR does this. I find her allusions respectful, and her metaphors fair. Ultimately, I think it will inspire at least some of her readers to learn more about the war, and recognize once again that the more one knows, the more one can get out of the series.

I also disagree with the notion that any allusion to the suffering of World War II cheapens it. I think there are ways to due a diservice to those who suffered, for instance by using it as a mere backround for melodrama, or to use it to suggest a character is evil on par with the Nazis and Hitler, without bothering to make him that evil in the story, or to poorly use it as a metaphor for something quite different for which the author seeks to create a dislike. But I don't think JKR does this. I find her allusions respectful, and her metaphors fair. Ultimately, I think it will inspire at least some of her readers to learn more about the war, and recognize once again that the more one knows, the more one can get out of the series. It is my belief that unless a book is specifically about the Holocaust/WWII, trying to base a book off these events cannot ever do anything but cheapen the historical events. No fiction can ever do justice to the horrific things that really did happen, and if people might come away with the false idea that the real events weren't as horrible as they really were (intentionally or not), a disservice has been done to the historical events that really happened.

I do not think that people would intentionally do this, nor do I think that JKR meant any disrespect, but I think it might happen unintentionally.

Also, I do not believe that this kind of a book would inspire people to learn more about the topic. Perhaps a fiction book centered around WWII (I'm a little iffy about those as well, but there are a few good ones, such as The Devil's Arithmatic or Number the Stars) might inspire people to learn further, but Harry Potter is more about entertainment than gaining knowledge. And the Holocaust should never be entertainment.

After DH came out, there was a thread here (I don't know if it still exists or not) suggesting that perhaps in the HP world, Grindewald had imperiused Hitler. This is one blatant example of how the real events can be cheapened, though I think for the most part, it's more subtle that this.

It is my belief that unless a book is specifically about the Holocaust/WWII, trying to base a book off these events cannot ever do anything but cheapen the historical events. No fiction can ever do justice to the horrific things that really did happen, and if people might come away with the false idea that the real events weren't as horrible as they really were (intentionally or not), a disservice has been done to the historical events that really happened.

I do not think that people would intentionally do this, nor do I think that JKR meant any disrespect, but I think it might happen unintentionally.

Also, I do not believe that this kind of a book would inspire people to learn more about the topic. Perhaps a fiction book centered around WWII (I'm a little iffy about those as well, but there are a few good ones, such as The Devil's Arithmatic or Number the Stars) might inspire people to learn further, but Harry Potter is more about entertainment than gaining knowledge. And the Holocaust should never be entertainment.

After DH came out, there was a thread here (I don't know if it still exists or not) suggesting that perhaps in the HP world, Grindewald had imperiused Hitler. This is one blatant example of how the real events can be cheapened, though I think for the most part, it's more subtle that this.

I don't think she cheapen's it at all.
[staff edit]

She need's a parrallel to draw to, and WWII is the fitted choice, because of its similarities to what she needs. Bear in mind we only ever see the world through Harry, so we don't actually know what Grindelwalk or Voldemort actually did to muggles and other wizards, torture wise.

I think the very fact, that she mentions nothing about wizard intervention in WWII keeps it from "cheapening" the real events.

I agree. The problem here is that during WWII we saw unprecedented evil based on the inherent belief in the superiority of one race over another. It is near impossible to define absolute evil in the guise of Voldemort or even the "pureblood" movement without some reference back to events in history. A historical parallel would be undoubtedly referenced because the characters are English and the most recent character study to draw back on is obviously that of the Nazis.

Perhaps if Harry Potter were from the United States, you would find the same inferences set against the issue of slavery and the Civil War, based on the context that Americans may have vis a vis Europe's trial with Hitler.

It is my belief that unless a book is specifically about the Holocaust/WWII, trying to base a book off these events cannot ever do anything but cheapen the historical events. No fiction can ever do justice to the horrific things that really did happen, and if people might come away with the false idea that the real events weren't as horrible as they really were (intentionally or not), a disservice has been done to the historical events that really happened.

I do not think that people would intentionally do this, nor do I think that JKR meant any disrespect, but I think it might happen unintentionally.

Also, I do not believe that this kind of a book would inspire people to learn more about the topic. Perhaps a fiction book centered around WWII (I'm a little iffy about those as well, but there are a few good ones, such as The Devil's Arithmatic or Number the Stars) might inspire people to learn further, but Harry Potter is more about entertainment than gaining knowledge. And the Holocaust should never be entertainment.

After DH came out, there was a thread here (I don't know if it still exists or not) suggesting that perhaps in the HP world, Grindewald had imperiused Hitler. This is one blatant example of how the real events can be cheapened, though I think for the most part, it's more subtle that this.

I think the real events are cheapened only when the work of fiction is intended to be a re-telling of those actual events, or are meant to replace the historical events with a fiction-based account. Fiction that supplements the real, historical events are fine, IMO. For example, the book Johnny Tremain tells the story of a young man during the time of the American Revolution. Johnny Tremain didn't exist, but his story is very compelling and allows a reader to experience the American War for Independence in a way that makes it real to the reader. I think JKR took a similar approach - she used the actual events in WWII and showed them through the lens of the wizarding world. She didn't change anything that happened, so I don't think she diminished the terrible situation of the war at all.

Aldawen-I think that part of JKR's point is that it can happen anywhere, even in a magical society. This underscores her point that magic (nor technology) can solve many of the problems of humanity.

This was actually the point that I was making. My concern was that, by comparing Voldemort exclusively to Hitler, this broader theme might be lost on a reader, not that JKR herself has done this.

I thought a bit more about this topic after my first post, and I disagree that fictional accounts inherently "cheapen" real events. Translating life into art has been one of the most important coping mechanisms for individuals and societies from the beginning of recorded history and very likely before. There are countless novels based on wars, and novels that are influenced by war, that serve to illustrate actual events and make them more fathomable. Books like Catch-22, The Things They Carried, and even Johnny Tremain, like someone else mentioned, attempt to convey the scope and tragedy of real events to their audiences. And what about Maus, the graphic novel series about the Holocaust? Often times fiction is a better avenue to understanding than straight history can be, as stories are structured in a way that elicits a particular response from a reader. Just look at what's happening today with the advent of 24-hour news stations that flash photo upon photo of death and destruction across the screen. This, in my opinion, cheapens the horror more than any fictional account could. It's done for ratings, and people either watch with gross fascination or are numbed entirely. Human empathy and emotion are lost in this approach, whereas in fiction these are more often than not the goals of the writer.
Fictional lives lost are in no way comparable to actual ones, but so often the destruction is more than a person can stomach. People tune out. I view fiction as a way of understanding and approaching reality in a way that is far more managable than plunging into the real thing headfirst. It can be selective, certainly, but it is a start.

Actually I have nothing against real life references in fiction either. This includes references to WWII. But if overdone in literature and movies, what, in my opinion happens these decades, I feel like there's more of an fiction effect authors try to reach over and over again, but the actual real life reference does not work anymore. This, I believe, cheapens the events on which these references are based. It makes me feel uncomfortable to read them.

Again, because this often seems to be misunderstood in this thread: it does not make me uncomfortable to read about WWII due to getting reminded on these horrible events - it does make me sit uncomfortable with it, because this reminder does no longer work at all in fiction for me.

Others have made different statements on this thread, though, and that was what I was responding to.

I'm not sure what you mean by "overuse"; does it crop up too often in the media, or do writers base things too heavily on it?

I'm not sure what you mean by "overuse"; does it crop up too often in the media, or do writers base things too heavily on it?It does crop up in the media on a daily basis where I live, but I'm fine with that. There are different ways to illustrate WWII references and for a long time there was a huge discussion in many countries whether the most horrible part of it, the holocaust, should be shown in art at all. People discussed if this had been adequate. I think it is, but I see the reasons why it was discussed. Later, however, many literature and especially movies put in references to their plotlines. No matter whether they dealt with a serious topic or whether the book or movie belonged to comedy. For me it is getting exhausting to have these references 'everywhere' for some years already, so I didn't enjoyed them in the HP series either.

I still don't think JK made a bad job with it, way better than many others actually, but seeing these references so often I just don't feel it is any helpful - if not for the plot. Since I believe such references shouldn't be included for plot purpose only, I'm uncomfortable with those. Its not that I hate it or want all authors to get rid of them, but after so many references I feel better by reading a book where I have none. Not speaking of books about WWII though. :lol:

I understand discomfort with obvious and perhaps overdone references to historical events, however, in my opinion as the WWII generation gets older and the events from that era fade out, it sometimes is helpful for fiction to reintroduce the higher concepts to keep the context of those events alive for younger generations.

I think JKR's use of historical perspective is good in that a generation that was born even after the fall of Communism gets an idea of the elements that made Nazism and Fascism evil. Her themes about racial prejudice are relevant, in that, younger generations may not really understand the horrific nature of what our grandparents and great grandparents faced in fighting total war against this type of hatred.

I don't think she meant it in a comedic way, even though comedy can help enlighten people as seen by the success of "The Producers" on Broadway. Hopefully, references to WWII peak interest in researching the historical context and don't create a caricature of those events.

I think JKR's use of historical perspective is good in that a generation that was born even after the fall of Communism gets an idea of the elements that made Nazism and Fascism evil. Her themes about racial prejudice are relevant, in that, younger generations may not really understand the horrific nature of what our grandparents and great grandparents faced in fighting total war against this type of hatred.

WWII is probably the best documented topic in Britain. You cannot switch on the TV without catching anything about WWII. I doubt that Voldemort and his Death Eaters illustrate the horrors of the regime better than actual pictures and films.

WWII is probably the best documented topic in Britain. You cannot switch on the TV without catching anything about WWII. I doubt that Voldemort and his Death Eaters illustrate the horrors of the regime better than actual pictures and films.


Fair enough, but here in the US we seem to have very short memories about historical context. WWII had a greater personal impact, in my opinion, in Europe and the UK because the threat was direct and devastating. The impact on the US was less so, in fact, the results of WWII in the US was as a springboard to superpower status. Between both world wars, Europe saw the decimation and destruction of an entire generation and of all its infrastructure and is more visible and heartfelt, but the US sees it more as one more event.

A context provided in a media event like JKR's books only helps the understanding on this side of the Atlantic, in my opinion.

I think this is where the main point is.
She's a British writer.
In History lessons at British schools, WWII is a very important subject. A world changing event that affected most people on the planet at the time in some way or another, but yet so recent as to have an extensive collection of documentation.

Having just finished the books I feel I can now comment and I am unhappy that the OP felt this way, I certainley picked up on the same references mentioned although in literary terms it was not that heavy.

I don't think retrospectively anything needs to be addressed in terms of how JK wrote the books and I think it was more for impact of how terrible life would be under LV's law after infiltrating the Ministry of Magic.

Another great thread again though :)

I was being serious about the references to National Socialism not sitting very well with me, only because I felt like it trivialized what was a very dark time in European and world history.

I quite disagree, I don't think it trivialized it at all. I think you may just be more sensitive to the subject because you are German. I have a few German friends who feel the same way. I can only speak for myself, but for me the idea was just that these are important lessons that need to be remembered. Also it was just her way of showing how the wizarding world and muggle world really do work together, having the events of WWII match up with Gridelwalds rule just reinforced her point.

The thing is- what happened in WW2 wasn't so different to what had happened in the past. It's all been repeated at some time or another. Yes, I did get that 'Nanzi' Germany feel at the ministry but I feel we are only comparing it to WW2 because it's most recent and dramatic in scaleing and comparrison to what Lord Voldemort's plans were... 'Magic is might'

Oh dear me.

It didn't unnerve me or make me feel upset. I wasn't uncomfortable with it. I think we should all be educated more about war in the vain attempt that it may not be repeated. Mentioning it in children's books isn't a bad start.

Personally, the obvious references didn't sit uncomfortably with me. But, I'm across the pond in the States and the battlegrounds seem more distant, in a way. Voldemort's reign did seem to be modeled after Nazi Germany, and I can see how it can seemingly untoward or "off-base". By presenting it in the form that was on the page, I can see how it may apparently trivialize or minimize the WWII impact. The wizarding world suffered for far less time than the real world did during WWII, and Potterwatch was somewhat of a comedic element...

So, yeah, it didn't sit badly with me; but I can see how others would have it sit badly.

The thing is- what happened in WW2 wasn't so different to what had happened in the past. It's all been repeated at some time or another.

Actually, the horrors of WWII are unrivalled. The Holocaust is the single most monstrous plan humans came up with and executed (fortunately the Nazis were stopped before they were wholly successful). Personally, I do think that using the topic whenever one needs a background for a villain (e.g. Magneto in X-Men) is trivialising the matter. I do not say that JKR did a horrible job, no, she conveyed the message very aptly. But the choice of using WWII once again sits uncomfortably with me because Voldemort is only the villain of a fantasy saga and whatever he did in the books cannot compete with the real horrors.

Actually, the horrors of WWII are unrivalled. The Holocaust is the single most monstrous plan humans came up with and executed (fortunately the Nazis were stopped before they were wholly successful). Personally, I do think that using the topic whenever one needs a background for a villain (e.g. Magneto in X-Men) is trivialising the matter. I do not say that JKR did a horrible job, no, she conveyed the message very aptly. But the choice of using WWII once again sits uncomfortably with me because Voldemort is only the villain of a fantasy saga and whatever he did in the books cannot compete with the real horrors.


I think this may have ran through JKR's mind, because i feel that she tries to distance the book from the horror's.

We very rarely see the events of Voldemort's reign. By keeping (99%) of the book from Harry's view, we don't see the scene's of horror. We only associate. The torture of the Longbottom's could have been included, if she wanted to portray the horror's. Hermione being tortured is another, we only hear it.

I think she does well to draw a comparison with Nazi regime, without portraying the horrific events only mentioning them. Alot of author's would be tempted to show those kind of events.

Actually, the horrors of WWII are unrivalled. The Holocaust is the single most monstrous plan humans came up with and executed (fortunately the Nazis were stopped before they were wholly successful). Personally, I do think that using the topic whenever one needs a background for a villain (e.g. Magneto in X-Men) is trivialising the matter. I do not say that JKR did a horrible job, no, she conveyed the message very aptly. But the choice of using WWII once again sits uncomfortably with me because Voldemort is only the villain of a fantasy saga and whatever he did in the books cannot compete with the real horrors. This is pretty much exactly how I feel as well :agree:

The term 'Genocide' was coined by a jurist named Raphael Lemkin in 1944 by combining the Greek word 'genos' (race) with the Latin word 'cide' (killing). Genocide as defined by the United Nations in 1948 means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, including: (a) killing members of the group (b) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group (c) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part (d) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group (e) forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Recent to Past Occurrences

Bosnia-Herzegovina: 1992-1995 - 200,000 Deaths
Rwanda: 1994 - 800,000 Deaths
Pol Pot in Cambodia: 1975-1979 - 2,000,000 Deaths
Nazi Holocaust: 1938-1945 - 6,000,000 Deaths
Rape of Nanking: 1937-1938 - 300,000 Deaths
Stalin's Forced Famine: 1932-1933 - 7,000,000 Deaths
Armenians in Turkey: 1915-1918 - 1,500,000 Deaths
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

This century alone has seen so many despotic, psychotic and maniac rulers, who allowed their prejudices to run amock.

I always thought Jo used WWII because for her that was the closest to home, and she wanted to perhaps draw a parallell to show how truly a horror Voldemort was and how important it was to destroy him.

And the definition of Genocide could very well mean Voldemort was a dictator, because he was for killing everyone who was not a pureblood witch or wizard.

I was ok with the WWII references, personally, although it did start seeming a bit unnecessary after awhile. Well, not unnecessary...just too much maybe? I understand that LV is evil, and I've been likening the DEs to the Nazis for a couple of books now, but it seemed a little contrived at times....

But she was probably going for a point, like quite a few posters have said, and from that perspective, it definately expresses how she feels. And, seeing as her writing should be a reflection of her (in my opinon), I think it's ok!

WWII is probably the best documented topic in Britain. You cannot switch on the TV without catching anything about WWII. I doubt that Voldemort and his Death Eaters illustrate the horrors of the regime better than actual pictures and films.

Maybe they don't illustrate the horrors better, but perhaps they illustrate the horrors in a more accessible way to people who don't study history. And who says they're intended to? The topic of ethnic cleansing in history is not a uniquely European one, so I don't think addressing that binds an author to any particular instance. The coincidences are there to make the fictional events plausible, not to necessarily reflect the real events on a one-to-one basis.

Maybe they don't illustrate the horrors better, but perhaps they illustrate the horrors in a more accessible way to people who don't study history. And who says they're intended to? The topic of ethnic cleansing in history is not a uniquely European one, so I don't think addressing that binds an author to any particular instance. The coincidences are there to make the fictional events plausible, not to necessarily reflect the real events on a one-to-one basis.

Absolutely. Works of fiction, especially that which is written for a wider range of age group, have limitations when conveying Nazi atrocities whilst making references and parallels to it with the plotls. Similarly, there is a borderline, a filter, when applying parallels in fictions that use other forms of political or social regimes.

i dont know, voldemort seemed like hitler to me. the death eaters resembled the nazi's to me also. i also dont think she meant to offend the german people by doing so.

MUGGLES AND WIZARDS IN WORLD WAR 2

I did quite a bit of research on the Dark Wizard Gellert Grindelwald and the Nazis in world war two and have discoverd some interesting information, this info is widely available through out the net and your local library.

As far what is common it is known the Gellert Grindelwald and Dumbledore dueled at the closing of World War 2... Coincidence according to JKR...

Maybe...

But if you dig closely enough there is some information that could link Gellert Grindelwald to Nazi Occultists and resarch that happened in world war 2.

As usual my overactive imagination got the better of me... So i submit this to everyone, by the way this makes an interesting backstory to the series.

LET US START WITH THE WORLD WAR 2 BACKROUNDER AND BACKSTORY

Gellert Grindelwald (Grindelvald) graduated from Durmstrang located somewhere between Scandanavia and or Russia most likely on the border. A school known for not accepting muggle borns, but this seems now less evident now since Krum took out Hermione in the Yule ball, it is known that Karkarov was a death eater and surely entered Durmstrang during world war 2

But how does this connect to the Nazis and Occultisim? If studied carefully the scandanavian region during world war 2 was controlled and occupied by German units based in Norway Denmark and Axis aligned Bulgaria in fact a large it had been know during the earlier part of the 20th century the "Nordic" ideal came from this region. It would be too easy for Gellert Grindelwald to easily align himself with the Nazis after all they had the same goal. It could be easily fold in to the idea that Grindelwald could have even been a member of the Nazi Party albeit hiding his true final intentions to subjucate muggle kind.

WHY WOULD HE NEED THE NAZI PARTY AND THE CONNECTION:

First of all he needed to subjucate a large population as possible and in actuality there are MORE muggles than Wizarding folk so he would need an army, hence he needed a Muggle army at first. So you get it linked to the German Army 1939 to 1940, after they have concured europe it would be easy for him to control (Imperious curse) the leader maybe Hitler or some other high ranking german officials (Please see DeathEater control of the British Ministry of magic in the 1990s)

WHO WOULD HAVE BEEN HIS CONTACTS?

Again the internet and research offers an answer, a two names actually Heinrich Luitpold Himmler of the SS according to records he was in charge of Occult research and Karl Maria Wiligut who was known as Himmler's Rasputin (Rasputin: The name of a pre-world war one monk, known to practice some sort of magic)

It would not have been a stretch for Grindelwald to have contact with Himmler and Wilgut who during the early 1940s where heavily engaged in supernatural research during the period, the theory of arayan supermen is not that far off from Grindelwald's concept of racial supremacy, The SS which Himmler was know for being the head of had a unit called the SS Ahnenerbe their research back then was about racial purity and the occult it had been known they sponsored trips to the himalayas region to find shangri-la, the region figures into many accounts of mysticisim. Another link into their dabbling into the occult mysticisim was the search for the holy grail and the spear of destiny.

It could be reasoned that they found what thery where looking for in the person of Grindenwald and his army of Pureblood supremecists. It would be no trouble for him to get deep into the nazi inner cricle and even get close enough to Hitler himself. It would not be a far stretch for him to have an entire SS division under him to guard him...

WHAT IS THE DUMBLEDORE CONNECTION?
Apart from the JKR outing of Dumbledore which serves as final separation from Nazi ideas (Hint: Pink Triangle) He seemed to be the last thing standing in his way and domination of western europe. Despite the secrecy of magic i suspect that Dumbledore or someone within the ministry may have been making contact (again) with the Muggle Winston Churchill as well the rest of the allied forces, during the late part of world war 2 Dumbledore most likely traveled to finaly confront Grindelwald for the battle of the elderwand an item which we could easily equate in value to fabled spear of destiny. The location of the duel is not stated in the JKR books, but in the end he was beaten and sent to his home land and imprisoned in Nurmengard which shares a shares a similar name to the Bavarian city of Nuremburg same place as the nazi trials... Where Voldemort Finished him off...

WHAT COULD VOLDEMORT LEARN FROM GRINDELWALD?
1. Elderwand Location
2. How to control large populations with fear (something he learned from the Nazis)
3. Enforcing Pureblood mania

COULD THERE HAVE BEEN A WIZARD ARMY?
Could have easily been an army, since it had been known Grindelwald surrounded himself with an army of his own. If there had been muggle solders guarding Grindelwald it may have complicated the matter even more an even better reason for the Dark wizard to associate himself with the Nazi-SS.

If this happened there would have been a break where Muggle and Wizard relations would have been at its closest but was still a closely guarded secret, something the OSS and British SIS would have a special section. Specific individuals would have been privy to magiacal secrets and subsequently either sworn to secrecy or memory oblivated in the end.

FINAL ANALYSIS:
The story of crossing over of world war 2 and Potterverse has plenty of interconnecting threads each one unique, and is a superb piece of fiction but with underlying threads of conspiracy theory for one to find out how this is linked to the real world takes a very active imagination to research the connections, this tale is trully well done by JKR! Variations of this theme can be spotted in HELLBOY and other stories about a supernatural conflict during world war 2.

-Disclaimer: This is a work of fiction, the conjecture made here is just that conjecture, and i am not a nazi nor share their beliefs, i am not even caucasian.

The books are written for people of many ages and many degrees of appreciation and knowledge of history. What JKR does is show inhumanity in a way that her readers can appreciate, even if they tend to ignore history as it is taught in school, or portrayed on television. Here we are talking of people they care about. For some, that makes all the difference in appreciating theh cruelties of war.

I was not bothered by the WWII connection.

I was not bothered by the WWII connection.

I wasn't bothered either, maybe your just reading to much into it. I don't think JK meant to offend anyone :)

The books are written for people of many ages and many degrees of appreciation and knowledge of history. What JKR does is show inhumanity in a way that her readers can appreciate, even if they tend to ignore history as it is taught in school, or portrayed on television. Here we are talking of people they care about. For some, that makes all the difference in appreciating theh cruelties of war.

I agree. Also in Book Six when she was describing the atmosphere of terror, uncertainty and suspicion because of Voldomort rising again, she might as well have described the USA of nowadays- with all the fears of supposed terrorists and insane uncertainty all around.

Yes, she may have :) Only- there is no Voldemort for USA. The biggest enemy they have is rather themselves.

Let's leave current political affairs out of Hogwarts, shall we? This is not the place to discuss the USA. :)

Yeah i agree i don't think we should bring such a horrible time in discussion with HP. It is a completely different thing that, while it has its similarities, shouldn't be compared to the fantasy world of Harry Potter...

What is WWII ?????

World War II. :)

It did not bother me... but i'm only 10, so at some parts it freaked me out a little. The movies mostly though. But, i can see the recemblance to those two subjects.

No, it wasn't uncomfortable. But again, I haven't known anyone harmed/fought in WWII. It may be different from those who knew people who fought in it. But Jo probably didn't mean to get on anyone's wrong side with the references.

Thanks. But, that has NOTHING to do with Harry Potter!!!!! This is MUGGLE net and a MAGICAL website. I don't mean to be rude, but why don't you talk about that on another website?This isn't Mugglenet, it's Chambers Of Secrets forums (we're related, but not the same and run by different staff). :)

JK Rowlings stated in interviews that several ideas she had for the Death Eater ideology are very close to what happened during World War II in Nazi ideology. The Cloak (http://www.cosforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=132) is the CoS forum area to discuss such issues. If you want to discuss issues happening in the HP series only, please check out The Stone (http://www.cosforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=131).

Actually we take it as a given the series used some WWII references - you might want to check out this thread for getting to know more about some of them - and discuss whether we are comfortable with it or not in this thread.

But now that this is cleared let's move on with the topic. If anyone of you has more questions to it please owl any member of staff online (members with a blue username in default) - but please keep thread logistics out here. Thanks. :)

I didn't find the references to WWII offensive as such, but I thought they were a little...well...tacky. I appreciate that HP began as a kids' series so the references might need to be clear to be understood, but I'm not sure that's an excuse since the books have got progressively darker and more adult in tone throughout the series. I think it could have done with a touch more subtlety, that's all...

Originally posted by: rotsiepots
was being serious about the references to National Socialism not sitting very well with me, only because I felt like it trivialised what was a very dark time in European and world history.

Ok I’m late to this thread so I apologise if I’m just repeating someone else. :) I agree that he referances were there but I would say that rather that trivialising it JKR used it to explore some of the issues. One thing I heartily appreciated was the fact that it was (or seemed to me) very clear that it was not only DE who believed in pure blood etc.

This parallels well the treatment of both homosexuals & the disabled at the end of WW II. Homosexuals liberated from concentration camps were immediately imprisoned else where as the allies also felt that homosexuality was a crime. While Jews generally were able to claim some compensation after WW II for certain thing such as being the vctims of forced sterilisation those who suffered the same fate because of disability could not make such claims because again the allies (the majority of them at least) had similar laws.

I took DD's reference to the lies of the golden statue in the MoM to be a clear statement that it was not just the DE or dark wizards that were the problem but that society as a whole has some serious issues to face up to.

Just my take on it :)

Voldemort and Hitler’s similarities
By Jesska Weasley ©

They both wanted a perfect race
(pure bloods & Aryans)
They both wanted to hide there Family history
( Voldemort changed his name so nobody knew he father was a muggle. And so did Hitler he changed his from Schicklgruber and destroyed the village where his came from
They kill all there opposition and those unworthy of living
(half bloods, mudbloods, and anyone who defied him like harrys parents. Hitler killed Jews, homosexuals, mental and physically disabled people)
They both worked there way to the top with manipulation, lies and murder.
( Hitler lied about his plans and promised to make germany strong again. He also has bugs and spies, and anyone who stood in his way “disappeared. Same with Voldemort, he put the imperius curse on people to use them as bugs and promised the wizarding kind power over muggles so they wouldn’t have to hide anymore.)
They both had a group of followers that did their bidding.
(Voldemort had the death eaters and dementors who killed and kidnapped and tortured all those who opposed him and Hitler had Nazi’s his storm troopers, his Gestapo and many other police forces.)


If anybody can think of any others Id like to know.
And im not a Nazi either, i relalized it when i was doing a modern history assignment the more i read the more i thought of voldemort. :S

I have realised the references but I found out the other way. After reading Harry Potter.
I am currently doing an Assignment on hitlers rise to power for history and the more I read the more I thought about Voldemort and Several other things in Harry Potter.
Such as:
Voldemort and Hitler both wanted a 'pure race' (the pure bloods and Aryans) and they killed anyone below there ideal or anyone who opposed it.

They both disowned there heritages. Voldemort changed his name to voldemort and killed his muggle family and Hitler changed his last name from Schicklgruber to Hitler and demolished the town his family came from.

They had the same promise, to make their followers Powerful. Hitler promised to make Germany strong again and Voldemort Promise to take over muggles so the wizards wouldnt have to remain in hiding.

And they both had a group of followers to do their biddings (deaths eaters and the gestapo)

Also Grindelwalds prison Nuremguard (i think thats how its spelt :S) Sounds quite familar to Nuremburg where Hitler held most of his rallies.
And also Voldemorts supporters Lucius and Narcissa and Draco seem very Aryan to me.

I dont know wether JK did this intentionally, but I have noticed. and i have found it a little wierd.

Voldemort and Hitler both wanted a 'pure race' (the pure bloods and Aryans) and they killed anyone below there ideal or anyone who opposed it.

They both disowned there heritages. Voldemort changed his name to voldemort and killed his muggle family and Hitler changed his last name from Schicklgruber to Hitler and demolished the town his family came from.
I didn't know that Hitler had changed his name but the irony that both he and the character of Voldemort were from groups that their respective ideologies found lacking was certainly present.

They had the same promise, to make their followers Powerful. Hitler promised to make Germany strong again and Voldemort Promise to take over muggles so the wizards wouldnt have to remain in hiding.
That's true though Hitler was also aided by international oppression of the German nation from war reparations that bankrupted the country and had forced it into a major depression. In short Germans of the 1920s and 1930s were, with some justification, a very bitter resentful people. Along comes a leader that offers them a way to turn it around.

To my way of thinking this is the main difference that exists between HP and historic Germany, the people that supported the likes of Voldemort and Grindlewald weren't the oppressed hungry masses that supported Hitler rather they represented what they saw as an elite whose position was under threat.

Also Grindelwalds prison Nuremguard (i think thats how its spelt :S) Sounds quite familar to Nuremburg where Hitler held most of his rallies.
Actually I felt the name was more coincidental than any direct reference. Nuremburg was the location of political rallies as you said and was later the scene of the post WW2 war crimes trials where Grindelwald’s Nuremgard (I'll have to re read the book to check that name) was more akin to Hitler's concentration camps that was later converted into a war crimes prison.

And also Voldemorts supporters Lucius and Narcissa and Draco seem very Aryan to me.
Possibly, but they just struck me as stuck up elitists.

I dont know wether JK did this intentionally, but I have noticed. and i have found it a little wierd.
Perhaps, I'm not entirely sure. Jo is, like me, a part of a generation once removed from direct wartime experience. My parents grew up in WW2 Britain and while neither served in the forces (My father was too young and my mother worked as a nurse at the time) both passed many stories of those times to me. As a result I find it difficult not to make parallels between any totalitarian regime, be it fictional or current, and Nazi Germany and I would suspect that Jo would be similarly inclined.

I feel that such parallels are only obvious to us because Nazi Germany is such a prominent recent historical model for such matters so in that case while Jo may have made them intentionally I don't believe that they were made maliciously.

Hitler didnt' even look Aryan. He wasn't tall, blond, but Voldemort always reminded me of him.

A question for Germans: why is it uncomfortable to see the references to WWII? I'm not saying it's wrong, I just wanted to see what it's like from your perspective. :) I'm not German and I'm interested in seeing why it's uncomfortable for you to read.

I do think there are obvious references to WWII as well. I may be alone on this, but the trials that took place after the first war remind me a lot of the Nuremberg trials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials).

The entrance of Nurmengard says "For the greater good," which reminds me a lot of how the entrance of Auschwitz says "Arbeit macht frei" (which roughly translates to "Work is liberty," I believe).

A question for Germans: why is it uncomfortable to see the references to WWII? I'm not saying it's wrong, I just wanted to see what it's like from your perspective. I'm not German and I'm interested in seeing why it's uncomfortable for you to read.


I'll quote myself from previous posts:

My worries are that the horrors that are connected with WWII are being trivialised by being used as the ultimate evil whenever literature or film needs a background for their villains. What happened in Germany during WWII was unrivalled in its cruelty and we should make sure not to take away from this by using it whenever we want to say that something was bad. There are many inhuman regimes all around the world, they are still in existence. It did not all end with WWII.

The Holocaust is the single most monstrous plan humans came up with and executed (fortunately the Nazis were stopped before they were wholly successful). Personally, I do think that using the topic whenever one needs a background for a villain (e.g. Magneto in X-Men) is trivialising the matter. I do not say that JKR did a horrible job, no, she conveyed the message very aptly. But the choice of using WWII once again sits uncomfortably with me because Voldemort is only the villain of a fantasy saga and whatever he did in the books cannot compete with the real horrors.

I don't think it's a German problem I am having. It's more of a historian's problem.

I don't think it's a German problem I am having. It's more of a historian's problem.I think its a general problem for me - I don't like such trivializing in any categories, might it be a historical one or another. Then I'm German, though, and don't know of it is different - but I don't think so. I know many people, also having posted in here, who are not German, but can't stand the permanent 'entertainment references' to Holocaust and WWII in media either.

As said before I believe JK actually did her job better - but I sit uncomfortable with the references because I stumbled over them so often before already. It's not wrong or bad imo, just a short uncomfortable feeling of 'aha - again, and again used for entertainment aims mostly'.

As said before I believe JK actually did her job better - but I sit uncomfortable with the references because I stumbled over them so often before already. It's not wrong or bad imo, just a short uncomfortable feeling of 'aha - again, and again used for entertainment aims mostly'.

I don't see such things as being for "entertainment" purposes. Certainly they are used as a root in reality for a character, to establish both it's humanity and it's flaws, but really I see such mentions as a tribute, as a method to keep the momory of such a hrrible time alive.

To many people, history is a dead thing, but to utilize historical events such as World War II gives than an opportunity to touch some small portion of the past, to bring it alive enough tro prompt further exploration and understanding.

To ignore, to bury the events of WW II would simply be wrong--we must learn from history, that we do not repeat it.

And that certainly doesn't even touch on the people who already claim that the Holocaust was a fabrication. If they can ignore such a fact of history, who is to say that the remainder cannot be swept away as well?

To ignore, to bury the events of WW II would simply be wrong--we must learn from history, that we do not repeat it.Again: I'm not talking about ignoring or burying it - I'm talking about people stumbling over references everywhere without really having a chance to recognize the past horrors properly. It's not buried and I certainly don't want this: it's overdone. People begin to ignore it because it is just too much. I don't think that's a good way to deal with history, for particular if it's something we indeed should learn about.

I'm also not criticizing when a few references are not be made super serious, but actually see a lot of them, for particular in US and UK films. It very often runs the exact same way: Protagonist is evil or meets super-evil, there is one, very short, WWII reference so that the recipients get to know how evil the protagonist really is (how can't he, if he's a Nazi?), then the story goes on. This happens in many movies from Harold & Maude, which I adore actually (but dislike this two seconds when it uses these references too), up to actual Hollywood stuff.

In my point of view these references are included for entertainment only - they deepen the storyline / character, but not explain anything about WWII. Or even why the character might have connections to this time. Also I think they're used in such a hue quantity that the 'overdone' effect I described a few times in this thread sets in.

Now filled with so many of those 'bad' examples (like I would call them) over the last decades I'm not so happy while stumbling over any WWII references in any literature or movie, if it's just done as some sort of side-effect. It's mostly done for story purposes only, that's why I sit uncomfortable with it.

Actually, the horrors of WWII are unrivalled. The Holocaust is the single most monstrous plan humans came up with and executed (fortunately the Nazis were stopped before they were wholly successful).

I'm not sure that I completely agree with you...it might be more apt to describe it as the best documented or publicized, or the most horrendous perpetrated by what we would describe as a highly civilized people. From history I would ask, how many Anabaptists do you see walking the streets? Those pacifists were exterminated hundreds of years ago.

In a more contemporary era, we have the purge in China following the rise of the Communists, the acts of genocide in Cambodia, ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia, Saddam Hussein's extermination of the Khurds...not to mention entire Christian tribes and villages being exterminated in central Africa.

And yes, I'm missing more than a few (check Wikipedia under 'Ethnic Cleansing').

Indeed, I would say that people who strap explosives to their bodies, and go out to blow up innocent people in marketplaces is quite a horror in and of itself.

Jo treats the horror and monsrosity quite accurately--for fiction originally intended for children.

It's mostly done for story purposes only, that's why I sit uncomfortable with it.

As a writer, I have to say that much background is "for story purposes only". If I say that a character is a 'Gangster Disciple', I don';t mean to convey a great deal of detail and information about American street ganfgs, I mean to establish certain attributes of background and character.

Certainly a "Nazi' is an easy bad guy character in entertainment, but the fact remains that despite the horrors that said group perpetrated in WWII. sixty plus years later where are people who choose to embrace those same principles, and utilizing such characters is one way of warning the rest of us that such a way of thinking isn't dead.

I almost get the feeling that you feel that the horrors of WW II are somehow sacred, and should only be "honored"--for lack of a better description. Treated only with reverance, even hallowed, in a manner of speaking, rather than being casually tossed about. Yet they are also part of our lives, part of our everyday experience, threads of WW II impact both how we live and who we are today, whether we always see them or not. I don't wish to hold history at a distance, I wish to know that we embrace it, make it part of us, or awareness, so that such things do not happen again.

Even to casually reference WW II is an acknowledgement of that part of our lives.

Hm. Darfur is absolutely terrifying and disgusting as well. We cannot forget that.

Let's face it, there are many references to WWII but I do not think JKR was taking a stab at the German people. We must bear reference and books are timeless.

sixty plus years later where are people who choose to embrace those same principles, and utilizing such characters is one way of warning the rest of us that such a way of thinking isn't dead.


Hit the nail on the head IMO. We are doomed to repeat the same mistakes (and the same atrocities are happening in Darfur) if we do not bear witness and learn from the past.

Treated only with reverance, even hallowed, in a manner of speaking, rather than being casually tossed about. Certainly not, you're right with that - it wouldn't help anyone if we just took it with the biggest care possible, butI guess we're over that anyway for a few decades. The big discussions whether a presentation of Holocaust in art (books, movies, drawings, poems, songs) at all is over. We do and I'm happy about it.

My concern is that nowadays authors and filmmakers use these references very fast. Too fast. The story gets cheap for my taste if such a historical reference - again speaking of all historical references, I'm not happy eg when I spot an odd Dschingis Khan reference either - was put in to create some more horror only. This moment I indeed believe it isn't appropriate and one should use more distance. I've no problem with Nazi satire or Nazi jokes or whatever. I've a problem when these references appear - again: in that mass they do nowadays - to put a story in some short glimpse of Holocaust horror only.

It's quantity and quality (no problems with a silly joke, I'm speaking of these small glimpses I described above) together what makes me feel uncomfortable with spotting such references - 'again'. Just really can say this over and over: all three points: quantity and quality of the references make me feel uncomfortable as someone who in the meantime thinks there have been to many of those hints. I'm neither worried nor want to change it, but the thread question was whether we sit uncomfortable with those references. I do. :)

I think as the years go on, it is through books and movie entertainment, however horrible it sounds to those who were affected and to the Germans for whom it is a sensitive topic, that the nature of the war, the reasons why it was fought is revealed. Those who were alive at that time are mostly no longer there with us, and lest a horror of such magnitude is forgotten and we make the same mistakes elsewhere again, I suppose there is no other alternative in sight (Globally I mean, not for the German people alone; here for eg; in schools, there isn't much about the second world war that can be called a detailed study, but people do become aware through books and movies that depict the war).

So we end up with reading about people like Voldmeort and countless others in books and see the movies; and kept alive are the horrors, sacrifices and acts of bravery and the wars fought because of and for them. What I think we should not do is to make it funny or entertaining in a wrong way by cheaping what people had undergone. So long as that is done, I think it is okay.

My worries are that the horrors that are connected with WWII are being trivialised by being used as the ultimate evil whenever literature or film needs a background for their villains.

I agree. But that is what will happen over time, because the actual horrors are softened by it (time). That I think is inevitable, but I also think care should be taken about how to use WWII or the horrors of the Nazi regime or any other regime for instance.

I would actually agree movies and books do a good job in keeping those events alive where it isn't taught in schools so much. (There are other historical issues who are I guess). As does Art in general. That's a good and important function it has.


Just, in my opinion, no series comparing the most evil character in it with Nazis only, will accomplish this aim. I don't think JK did reduce her references to this, but it was shown that way so often, that I don't believe children will learn anything about the past through it. What I mean is, when someone reads for example Anne Frank's diary, what's no academical work either, but just the diary about a girl getting into hiding with her family due to being Jewish during WWII, one gets a lot of information - and, indeed, also entertainment. It is a book about this time as are many novels and fictional stories - that's completely fine.
But if one writes a fictional story, makes a film, but just randomly puts hints about Nazi times into it as well, I don't see this aim reached. In fact I am confused about why it had to be put in and can't see another reason as deepening the own characters in some spotlight way. There I don't feel comfortable with the purpose the historical reference has.

Just, in my opinion, no series comparing the most evil character in it with Nazis only, will accomplish this aim. I don't think JK did reduce her references to this, but it was shown that way so often, that I don't believe children will learn anything about the past through it. What I mean is, when someone reads for example Anne Frank's diary, what's no academical work either, but just the diary about a girl getting into hiding with her family due to being Jewish during WWII, one gets a lot of information - and, indeed, also entertainment. It is a book about this time as are many novels and fictional stories - that's completely fine.
But if one writes a fictional story, makes a film, but just randomly puts hints about Nazi times into it as well, I don't see this aim reached. In fact I am confused about why it had to be put in and can't see another reason as deepening the own characters in some spotlight way. There I don't feel comfortable with the purpose the historical reference has.

Oh! I think I understand what you're saying. I have read the Diary of Anna Frank and another book about Riga and others. Those books told me so much about the horrors of the 2nd world war, than what I had learned in School.

I think the reason why these references keep coming up and they are mostly a parallel to Hitler and Nazi regime, is because that was the worst horror of Europe and whenever any author or movie maker wants to say something about cruelty, about a dictator or conditions of the people in a country which was in the control of an evil person, I think they tend to take from here.

In Eurpoe I think everyone uses the Nazi rule to emphasize on the magnitude and to tell their readers how truly horrible this evil man was; by comparing him to Hitler.

While in India we would not use Hitler but our own horrors; and so on. But English authors and movie makers usually use the WWII because people can understand that better than anything else.

I agree - and partly I'm actually fine with it. It's a cultural phenomena, what's actually rather interesting to look at in different areas of this world. But also it does not really make me feel very comfortable to get this used in such a trivial way over and over. If done a few times only, I guess I had no issues at all.

I personally am fine with it and some comparisons can be made, especially the policies which are made in the ministry of magic after Voldemort/ followers take it over!

I'm not sure that I completely agree with you...it might be more apt to describe it as the best documented or publicized, or the most horrendous perpetrated by what we would describe as a highly civilized people. From history I would ask, how many Anabaptists do you see walking the streets? Those pacifists were exterminated hundreds of years ago.

In a more contemporary era, we have the purge in China following the rise of the Communists, the acts of genocide in Cambodia, ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia, Saddam Hussein's extermination of the Khurds...not to mention entire Christian tribes and villages being exterminated in central Africa.

And yes, I'm missing more than a few (check Wikipedia under 'Ethnic Cleansing').

Indeed, I would say that people who strap explosives to their bodies, and go out to blow up innocent people in marketplaces is quite a horror in and of itself.

All these human atrocities are horrible, as are witch hunts and ritual sacrifices, but it is generally agreed upon that nothing compares and should be compared to the horrors of the Holocaust. The dimension of the genocides we're talking about here is unique. That's the reason I do not like to see literary references left and right. Grindelwald and Voldemort were evil all right but nothing they ever did was close to what happened in the Third Reich.

In Eurpoe I think everyone uses the Nazi rule to emphasize on the magnitude and to tell their readers how truly horrible this evil man was; by comparing him to Hitler.

While in India we would not use Hitler but our own horrors; and so on. But English authors and movie makers usually use the WWII because people can understand that better than anything else.
Exactly. History before and since WW2 has examples of horrors of similar magnatude but Nazi Germany was such a well doccumented example that people of European and British decent can comprehend the referances far far better.

All these human atrocities are horrible, as are witch hunts and ritual sacrifices, but it is generally agreed upon that nothing compares and should be compared to the horrors of the Holocaust. The dimension of the genocides we're talking about here is unique. That's the reason I do not like to see literary references left and right. Grindelwald and Voldemort were evil all right but nothing they ever did was close to what happened in the Third Reich.
In that I disagree to a point. Events like Cambodia and the killing fields as well as the bloody conflicts in central Africa to cite just a couple of examples are of comparable scale and are still ignored for the most part.

What happened in Europe in WW2 was horriffic but by no means unique, just better doccumented than most such events.

I don't think it's a German problem I am having. It's more of a historian's problem.

Thank you for explaining that and I apologize for directing this at Germans. (I feel like such an idiot right now. :() So, basically, do you feel that the references are trivializing what happened in World War II?

Thank you for explaining that and I apologize for directing this at Germans. (I feel like such an idiot right now. :() So, basically, do you feel that the references are trivializing what happened in World War II?

Yes. :agree:

I don't think there is anyway around the references to WWII because you've got a person trying to take over the world and kill off a certain type of people.

I also have a question for anyone who was educated in Germany. Did you ever study WWII

I also have a question for anyone who was educated in Germany. Did you ever study WWII

All the time. Three or four times in school. There are documentaries on TV almost daily. For further discussion about German education you may want to check out Germany in the Eyes of Non-Germans v2 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=94250).

I don't think there is anyway around the references to WWII because you've got a person trying to take over the world and kill off a certain type of people.Actually I wouldn't take this as direct reference to WWII, not even the Death Eater ideology, although it's very similar - but both are phenomena able to happen everywhere and have happened on more places. But the little hints like people in Grindelwald's former house speaking German do it - putting them in randomly is what I don't like so much. Again, no big deal, and I think JK does a way better job than many other authors and especially screenwriters for me, but it's there.

I wonder to what extent JKR got drawn into this without thinking it through properly - a throw away line in PS about Dumbledore defeating Grindelwald in 1945 grew into something bigger.

I have no doubt the pure blood status thing is derived from the Nuremberg laws though. She like most of us here will have learned about them at school (It sometimes seems that WW1 and the holocaust are the only history taught here.)

Seems like this here too. :lol:

I think she once said she got the whole pureblood ideology first, then visited a Holocaust museum (I think) and was surprised how close it was to all what her Death Eaters do in the series. Then she must have heard a lot of WWII and the Holocaust during her life and might just not directly have realized at first how much she might have gotten from the actual historical events.

Here is what JK Rowling said in her July 16, 2005 interview about it:
ES: Our other “Ask Jo” question (the one about James and Lily’s sacrifices), was from Maria Vlasiou, who is 25, of the Netherlands. And then the third is from Helen Poole, 18, from Thirsk, Yorkshire – also one of the “Plot Thickens” fan book authors. It’s the one about Grindelwald, which I’m sure you’ve been gearing up for us to ask.

JKR: Uh huh.

ES: Clearly -

JKR: Come on then, remind me. Is he dead?

ES: Yeah, is he dead?

JKR: Yeah, he is.

ES: Is he important?

JKR: [regretful] Ohhh...

ES: You don’t have to answer but can you give us some backstory on him?

JKR: I'm going to tell you as much as I told someone earlier who asked me. You know Owen who won the [UK television] competition to interview me? He asked about Grindelwald [pronounced "Grindelvald" HMM…]. He said, “Is it coincidence that he died in 1945,” and I said no. It amuses me to make allusions to things that were happening in the Muggle world, so my feeling would be that while there's a global Muggle war going on, there's also a global wizarding war going on.

ES: Does he have any connection to --

JKR: I have no comment to make on that subject.

[Laughter.]

MA: Do they feed each other, the Muggle and wizarding wars?

JKR: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Mm.

So it's nothing educational after all but an amusing allusion. This confirms my opinion that references to WWII are overused.

If anything the references drew the likeness between wizard's and muggle's together, they are as prone to jumped up dictators who are hell bent on wiping out an entire race for their satisfaction.

To be completely honest, when I read the book for the first time, I made no connections to any real life events. I see how easily the connections could be made, but the references are to any opressive regime rather than WWII specifically, excluding the Germans and the prision.

posted by JKR
It amuses me to make allusions to things that were happening in the Muggle world, so my feeling would be that while there's a global Muggle war going on, there's also a global wizarding war going on

That was a poor choice of words by JKR, who may have not meant it the way it reads, I suppose.

I think most writers use the WWII and the Nazi occupation specially to impress upon their readers that their own evil madman was so evil that he was a horror like Hitler. That id probably the superlative in evilness. JKR may have used Voldemort and the DEs like that, and what she may have found amusing would be that Grindelwald, Voldemort and DEs are somewhat similar to her own evil personalities, perhaps IMO, along with the timeline of WWII and the war with Grindelwald.

That was a poor choice of words by JKR, who may have not meant it the way it reads, I suppose.

I agree. I thought the word amuses was a poor choice. What about it could possibly be amusing to compare real world horrors to what she is trying to create with pen and ink?

Hm, does it amuse her to know that her readers make such connections?

I agree that the WWII/Nazi/Hitler allusions are used far too much, thus creating desensitization. I guess that many writers including JKR know that comparing evil in the novels to evil we can relate actual fact to pushes how dark and vile these people truly are. We find the material more relatable, and thus, feel for the characters fighting/dying against or because of that evil. Maybe I'm way off here though.

I get the Nazi allusion but I don't think Grendelwald is German. He's supposed to be Bulgarian isn't he?

At least the school one Bulgarian Quidditch player attented listed his sign (aka the Hallows) - but we don't know whether Durmstrang is located in Bulgaria either.

We only know the household which was attacked in DH poke German (which so includes Austria and Switzerland as well) and Grindelwald's name sounds German. There are no certain hints, it's just about references.

Grindelwald is the name of a town in Switzerland, in Berne canton exactly (german-speaking part of the country). I was very surprised the first time I saw it.
The references to WWII didn't annoy me that much, I think it's a way for the author to make people understand how evil Voldemort was. It's easier for people to understand things when they are not too far in time IMO. But I do understand that people can feel uncomfortable with it, especially Germans.

To be honest, I didnt spot the references at first, but now that I have- i'm not really liking it:no:. There's no need for Nurmengrad, Gregorovitch and Grindelwald to be German. I'm certainly not the highest authority on this subject, but these references are quite unnecessary, if meant that way.

Voldemort is the Villain after all, but I can sure understand why some of you are uncomfortable with these references.

I didn''t really have a problem with it actually. I think I might've enjoyed it just a bit. I think it was such a big part in history, you just can't help throwing it in there. I think having included kind of helped remind people that we shouldn't let something like that happen again. Anyhow, I don't really see the point in it aggrevating people so much. :grumble:

The only refrences to WWII I got was the pure blood thing. I liked it as well. (Not the Nazi stuff... Just that it was similar) Because to me the whole story is based around rasicum of some sort. It didnt even occur to me that Grindlwald might be German, or that he might have died around the time of the war.

I am not really sure what made me start thinking about this, maybe its because History is one of my favorite things to learn about, but! I had started thinking about the Harry Potter series and perhaps what real events may have had a bit of influence over the creative nature (or total coincidece) that I could draw to the series and to history it self.

So here goes! while thinking about the series I related most of the battles and good vs. evil to WWII! I know, its far fetched (though I will feel dumb if someone already said it).

My thoughts are that looking at the Ministry, for example, you go through Fudge, Scrimgor and then Voldemort runs the show more or less..3 changes of power, third reich! (*sp), this made me contine my thought process onto the next thing, Pureblood relating closely to this Aryian idea of the history, while I thought this interesting I looked futher into muggle-born registration which made me sort of really think too!

I went on to think of the school, what it could have been a metaphor for in the history of WWII, then it hit me! Schindlers plant, with Snape playing the part of an appearingly good Death Eater secretly helping the enemy and innocent caught in the conflict of good and evil!

Finally we move on to the Trio! (bet you thought I wouldn't come with somthing for this one!) alright, so in WWII we had the USA, England and France in the allies, with the USSR as a reluctant ally (Draco).

I could keep going on for a while with thoughts i've had on this, but I figured I would give everyone a taste of some of the things that go through my mind after I read Harry Potter one night and then study History another (yay grad school :-p).

can anyone think of an equivalent of Voldemort in our world that existed at around the same time? i know some people have compared Grindelwald to Hitler for many obvious reasons, but what about Voldemort?

I believe that politics is an important element of the Harry Potter novels and we see many compeating political philosophys represented in the novels.

The most glaring example is that of Voldemort and the Death Eaters. It is apparent, I believe, that Voldemort was the wizard version of Adolph Hitler and the death eaters were the S.S. Both had an obsession with purity of birth, yet neither were pure themselves (voldemort was a halfblood yet he believed that only purebloods were worthy, Hitler felt germans with blond hair and blue eyes were the master race yet he wasn't even a German by birth and he had brown hair) Also both sought to wipe out the race that they believed was inferior, Hitler with the jews and Voldemort with the muggle borns.

Next we have the ministry of magic, which, especially in the 5th book seems to be a very left wing government. They are over reaching and interfere very much as we can see about what is happening at Hogwarts at the time with Umbrige (Hogwarts tzar would have been a fitting title for her role). Also it seems like they are will fully ignorant about Voldemort having risen again and the danger he poses. This I believe reflects the lefts view on terrorism and in the book helped enable Lord Voldemort to come to power.

Now there we have between the two camps what are conventionally believed to be the two opposite sides of the political spectrum. The Nazi's were believed to be uber right wing while the ministry it seems to me is very left wing. However if you were to look at it from the perspective of Tyranny on one side and Anarchy on the other they were both on the tyranical side (similar to fascists and communists) and so in actuality they aren't much different.

That leaves The trio, the order, and their supporters. They don't like Voldemort and the death eaters or the ministry and with good reason. Voldemort has shown just how murderous people in power can be, and the ministry has shown how incompetant, yet over reaching they can be.

The Order rejects both sides seeing as they accept everybody who fights against Voldemort regardless of birth, yet unlike the Ministry they actually do fight. Harry and the order fights the ministry from Fudge to Umbrige to Scrimgeor, and he also fights voldemort and the death eaters... any way, I'm rambling now but I think you get the point.

What are your views on the politics of Harry Potter?

NOTE: For purposes of this first post, I use the ministry almost solely to mean the Fudge Administration. I'm not talking about the ministry under Voldemort.

That leaves The trio, the order, and their supporters. They don't like Voldemort and the death eaters or the ministry and with good reason. Voldemort has shown just how murderous people in power can be, and the ministry has shown how incompetant, yet over reaching they can be.

The Order rejects both sides seeing as they accept everybody who fights against Voldemort regardless of birth, yet unlike the Ministry they actually do fight. Harry and the order fights the ministry from Fudge to Umbrige to Scrimgeor, and he also fights voldemort and the death eaters... any way, I'm rambling now but I think you get the point.

What are your views on the politics of Harry Potter?

NOTE: For purposes of this first post, I use the ministry almost solely to mean the Fudge Administration. I'm not talking about the ministry under Voldemort.

I guess if you see Voldemort and the Death Eaters as Right wing and the Ministry of Magic to be Left-Wing this leaves the rest which are basically "the good guys" of the series to be central on the political spectrum although I think they are a bit left wing as they wish for all the different beings and blood status's in the wizarding world to have equal rights which the Ministry never really seem to care about and the death eaters obviously disagree with.

I guess if you see Voldemort and the Death Eaters as Right wing and the Ministry of Magic to be Left-Wing this leaves the rest which are basically "the good guys" of the series to be central on the political spectrum although I think they are a bit left wing as they wish for all the different beings and blood status's in the wizarding world to have equal rights which the Ministry never really seem to care about and the death eaters obviously disagree with.

I honestly see them as both being on the same side of the spectrum. If Tyranny is on one side, and liberty is on the other side, the ministry under Fudge and then Voldemort is definatly closer to tyranny than it is liberty which would put both on the left.

i have been thinking about some of his actions and traits lately and i seem to find a lot of traits in common between hitler and voldemort. both went for genocide of a race of people they deemed "inferior", and both were obviously not a part of the race that they deemed superior. voldemort was a half blood that was raised by muggles and was as hypocritical as to say that only pure-bloods were worthy of magical learning. They also both seemed to capitalize on established prejudices to gain power initially. I couldn't help but wonder if Rowling loosely based voldemorts character on hitler or other historical tyrants. what are your thoughts on this?

I don't think so. For one thing, there were no concentration camps or systematic slaughter of Muggles.

I think Voldemort was just an archetypal villain, and had the aspects of villainy that would push the most buttons for the average reader. As for the seeming concentration of "dark" or questionable wizards in the German and Baltic areas, I think that's because Britain suffered rather terribly in WWII from that part of the Axis, and so it's likely JKR just getting a bit of her own back.

No different from the US still bearing a grudge of sorts against Japan... the European war affected us, but the Pacific war was more personal because of Pearl Harbor.

I think there are some similarities between Hitler and Voldemort, I think, though I'm not sure, that JKR herself has said that Voldemort does draw some similarities from Hitler. But again I'm not sure. Your not the first person to notice it though, I have read many people who say that Voldemort is like Hitler.

For instance, Voldemort is a half-blood who hates Muggles and basically anyone with Muggle blood and Hitler was, I believe, half-Jewish and hated Jewish people and wanted to kill anyone that didn't have blonde hair and blue eyes when he himself had brown hair. Voldemort hates Muggles yet he has Muggle blood. I think this is where many people draw parallels to Voldemort and Hitler. Overall I think there are certainly similarities and Voldemort may not even be the first person to be Hitler-based, after all I think Hitler is one of the most hated people of the 20th century. But I don't think everything about Voldemort is like Hitler.

Like SadiraSnape said there were not concentration camps but I think had Voldemort won there would have been something similar, maybe. You can also kind of see a similarity between the SS and Death Eaters. Like I said, overall I think there are similarities but I don't think Voldemort could be completely compared to Hitler.

Hitler was a supremely gifted and passionate orator and was able to - unfortunately - persuade or coerce people into following his beliefs.

On the contrary, Voldemort operated in the shadows and didn't seek a large, mobilized force of lackeys. He confided in his Death Eaters and trusted that their fervor and allegiance would be enough.

So their leadership styles were distinctly different, even if some of their basic ideals were aligned.

For instance, Voldemort is a half-blood who hates Muggles and basically anyone with Muggle blood and Hitler was, I believe, half-Jewish

There's no proof to the rumour that Hitler had Jewish ancestry.

and hated Jewish people and wanted to kill anyone that didn't have blonde hair and blue eyes when he himself had brown hair.

While the Nazis saw Nordic features as the Aryan ideal, they had no intention of eliminating everyone who didn't meet the ideal.

Can we keep this about possible WWII references in the HP books please. We have a history forum for other discussions regarding Hitler.

I have found a few interesting things. Not really found but it is peculiar how similar Voldemort and Hitler really are.

-Hitler hated jews even though he was part jewish
-Voldemort hated anyone not pure-blood when he himself wasnt pure-blood
-Hitler tries taking over the world
-Voldemort tries taking over the world

There are many more but I cant think of them all. What do you guys think do you see any similarities?

I have felt the same way as the OP as I am too, German.
Especially when the Ministry is taken over and they explain how it looks like in there with the big statue reading 'magic is might' and all that. and how they discriminate against half-bloods or muggle born wizards/witches really makes me relate to WW2 a lot.
But I don't think it was overdone nor was I offended by it.

I have found a few interesting things. Not really found but it is peculiar how similar Voldemort and Hitler really are.

-Hitler hated jews even though he was part jewish
-Voldemort hated anyone not pure-blood when he himself wasnt pure-blood
-Hitler tries taking over the world
-Voldemort tries taking over the world

Hitler was not part Jewish and his ambitions didn't really extend beyond Europe.

Hitler was not part Jewish and his ambitions didn't really extend beyond Europe.

Indeed. That Hitler is Jewish myth has become pretty entrenched. It is one of the first things I have to address in class before we start learning about WWII. As for the global domination, one could argue that Voldemort's ambitions didn't really extend beyond Europe either. We get small references to activity in other parts of Europe, but (please correct me if I'm wrong), we don't get much about his influence in the entire international wizarding world, do we?

In terms of WWll references...well, in the films, I notice they are keeping the costuming either late 19th century or a a Wartime kind of motif. Narcissa's and Cattermole's costumes come to mind as well as Umbridge. The use of a radio and listening into to an underground broadcast also feels like WWll. The anti muggle propaganda is also reminiscent. The film takes it further still by dressing the security and guards in costumes that evoke Nazi uniforms. Trying to control National Education through the Ministry is certainly a similarity as well as an underground resistance, a higher elite echelon of DE's similar to Hitlers. Safe houses and sanctuary and persecution of resistance all factor in also. Of course "pure bloods" and "Race Traitors" are the most obvious parallel along with the rounding up of Muggles and Half bloods for interrogations and imprisonment and worse. So, I would venture to say, yes, there are many explicit references/parallels to WWll in the story.

Like SadiraSnape said there were not concentration camps but I think had Voldemort won there would have been something similar, maybe. You can also kind of see a similarity between the SS and Death Eaters. Like I said, overall I think there are similarities but I don't think Voldemort could be completely compared to Hitler.

They already had Azkaban - the Voldemort-run Ministry were rounding up Muggleborns and sending them to Azkaban, on the trumped-up charge of "stealing magic". This was the future that awaited the group of people the Trio saved from the Ministry. Plus, Dirk Cresswell was on the way to Azkaban, because he was Muggleborn, when he hexed Dawlish and escaped. Voldemort was locking up the people he considered "inferior". And he found people all too happy to do it for him, like Umbridge and the DE who sat on the hearing with her. (Yaxley?)

I have felt the same way as the OP as I am too, German.
Especially when the Ministry is taken over and they explain how it looks like in there with the big statue reading 'magic is might' and all that. and how they discriminate against half-bloods or muggle born wizards/witches really makes me relate to WW2 a lot.
But I don't think it was overdone nor was I offended by it.

I think there are similarities with Hitler/Nazis. But I think there are also similarities with the KKK, or any other racist group that destroyed innocent lives. (The hoods and masks had me thinking of the KKK, very quickly.)

I think the Order, the DA, and the Potterwatch radio show bear similarities to the French Resistance.

I think there are similarities with Hitler/Nazis. But I think there are also similarities with the KKK, or any other racist group that destroyed innocent lives. (The hoods and masks had me thinking of the KKK, very quickly.)

I think the Order, the DA, and the Potterwatch radio show bear similarities to the French Resistance.

oh yeah I definately agree. There are similiarities with every racist group and also movements against those. Since I live in Germany I have obviously gone through quite a lot of stuff concering WW2 in my history classes and therefore am kinda familiar with all the Nazi Germany stuff and a lot of it DE/Voldemort stuff just reminded me of that.
And omg yes the KKK of course. I have never thought about this but it's actually brilliant.

Hitler/Voldemort
VERY similar

I think it's a bit easier to draw Nazi parallels to the the storyline than direct Voldy/Hitler parallels.

Someone probably has already pointed this out, but the thread is too long to read complete. The Battle of Hogwarts happens on May 2nd which is the day Berlin fell on 1945.

Someone probably has already pointed this out, but the thread is too long to read complete. The Battle of Hogwarts happens on May 2nd which is the day Berlin fell on 1945.

:wow:
I have never made this connection. THank you for pointing that out. I think some things really do make it obvious that JKR tried to draw parallels to Nazi Germany.

I also I thought when Bellatrix wrote Mudblood on Hermione's arm in DH part 1 movie I was reminded of the tattoos the Nazis gave Jews.

Maybe something of the sort has already been said, but I don't feel like going through 36 pages of posts. Anyway, we had this discussion in my german class not too long ago, and we came to the conclusion that, J.K. Rowling having originally made this story for her daughter (a guy in my class said he read it had been that way, wether it's true i don't know) the story might have beena way if teaching her daughter right from wrong, explaining the second world war in a child friendlier way, and that over the years and books she adapted it for comercial purposes. This mightbe utter nonsense, but it's a possibility

I think I read somewhere that JKR made the connection to NG as a template for all dictatorial facist totalatarian systems. its just ww2 is still so vivid for many and so widely retold because of its distruction and all encompassing of nearly the entire populated planet. I personaly know people who are Germans, living in Germany in that period and suffered who think the retelling in the books was well done. It was just pure blind chance that Germany was the only country to fall under national socalism, it was widely popular in many countries including England, America, Australia, and most western democracies, along with communism, it was quite an ongoing battle for most of the late 20's into the mid 30's when war broke out, its just democracy won out in most countries but not all.

^ Yes, definately. It only got this extreme in Nazi Germany. Luckily other countries were spared and didn't have to suffer this kind of regime and so much evil.
I have met many people who lived during WW2 as well since I live in german. Even my grandpa who was a kid in the Hitler youth at that time has vivid memories of that period of his life. Sometimes it is not even easy for me who has had anything to do with those wars, I mean I still can point out several situations in my life where I had been negatively associated with either WW1 or WW2. Let's not forget that Germany kind of caused both. So that's why I like how JKR picked this sense of national socialism up in her books and showed that this kind of regime is possible anywhere, any day.

Maybe something of the sort has already been said, but I don't feel like going through 36 pages of posts. Anyway, we had this discussion in my german class not too long ago, and we came to the conclusion that, J.K. Rowling having originally made this story for her daughter (a guy in my class said he read it had been that way, wether it's true i don't know) the story might have beena way if teaching her daughter right from wrong, explaining the second world war in a child friendlier way, and that over the years and books she adapted it for comercial purposes. This mightbe utter nonsense, but it's a possibilityJo had been working on the HP story for 3 years already when Jessica was born. She has also said in an interview that she has not written anything with giving moral lessons in mind. :)

Jo had been working on the HP story for 3 years already when Jessica was born. She has also said in an interview that she has not written anything with giving moral lessons in mind. :)
While the first bit may be factual enough, authors usually aren't keen to admit to things like the second. I believe the text is ultimately the authority, not the author's statements after the fact. In other words, what she said in the book matters most, not in interviews.

Actually JK once said in an interview that she visited a Holocaust museum of some sort and was surprised on how close this came to her description on Death Eaters. Judging by this statement only I don't think she directly wanted to connect Death Eaters with, eg, the SS.

So I think she put some connections to historical events on purpose, but much seems to be intended as general description of radical groups fighting for their human-fiendly causes with terror and violence. After all, during history this happened in quite many countries. Using many German / Austrian names and locations for particular for DE and Durmstrang characters certainly puts things close to the historical events most Western Europeans recall first too, though.

Tolkien's works were also considered to be allegorical to the war, though he said that it was not the case.

While the first bit may be factual enough, authors usually aren't keen to admit to things like the second. I believe the text is ultimately the authority, not the author's statements after the fact. In other words, what she said in the book matters most, not in interviews.Kindly note that she did not deny that her books contained moral lessons, she only said she did not set out to write moral lessons. We are of course free to believe her or not. But the text of the books is what it is - nothing more, nothing less. It's not an authority of anything which is not written into it.

You are of course right in that we shouldn't take for granted what's said in interviews, but we can't take for granted that the text of the books is better proof for her intentions either.

I believe that it's an undeniable fact that the books do contain moral lessons, but I don't see any reason to believe that Jo set out with the purpose of producing lessons. I just think she's too clever for that. :)

Back on topic:
We tend to project what we read, be it Rowling or Tolkien or whoever, on things we know something about. And we all know something about WW II. It overshadows some earlier horribilities like for example the Russian pogroms about 110 years ago, and rightly so. I find in the muggle trials in DH more parallels to the witch hunts a few centuries earlier than to WW II. And here I mean the trials, not the SS-like guards marching the victims in and out.

I don't think it's possible to write about good vs evil without making parallels to real life.

I don't think JK singled out any group of people in the books. However, she addresses a common issue that has been ongoing throughout the history of the world. There are evil people in this world with twisted ideas of an "ideal society" or "superior race." This issue has been described in many other works of literature (such as Tolkien). It is a sickening issue to even think about, but JK's work brings awareness to it so we can stop such abuses or thwart such thinking throughout the world.

I'm not sure if I'm doing this right or it's the right section, but, has anyone else noticed the similarity of Hitler and Voldemort?

-they both have their followers
-they both hate and discriminate against inferior races (jews/muggleborns)
-they are both feared.

These are three simple points, I have much more in my head, but i'd just like to think what you think :)

I think a lot of authors, JK included, would subconsciously include allusions to things like the War and the Holocaust in their work because they affect our daily lives so much. Things like secret police and dictators and purges are evident in hundreds of novels; it doesn't necessarily mean JK based the series around WWII and the Nazis, but they could easily have influenced her.

I think the references to the nazi regime are well chosen and not overdone. I appreciate them because they show that racist and generally evil behaviour is not dependent on which weapon you use and which culture you grew up in (in this case wether muggle or wizarding culture), but are a part of the human nature that we have to find a way to deal with.

Especially the classification into pureblood, halfblood, muggleborn and muggle always reminded me strongly of the nazi's devision into jew, half-jew, quarter jew, and even eighth jew, other races, and aryan. "Blood" was an important term in the nazi press and it was often spoken about the "dirty" jewish blood, which would contaminate the german "pure" blood.
Marrying a muggle is seen as a crime in the DE's mentality and degrades the family of the respective witch or wizard (see how it infuriates Bellatrix to be reminded of the Tonks family in HBP, chapter one) , similar to how germans who were married to jews were reduced to the status of whores in public opinion.
I agree that these things refer to racist and selective culture in general, but I think random things like Grindelwald being probably german, being defeated in 1945, the old-originally-not-harmful symbol being misused for his ideas, and the kind-of-a-salute of Snape and Yaxley are specific hints and important too, as they emphasise what Grindy/Voldy really are, that it's not just the one evil guy but a whole ideology, a whole system that can reach out to harm many, many people and not only those who face the villain personally.

Grindelwald was imprisoned in Nurmengard (with that phrase over the gate), just as parts of the ss were held back in the concentration camps they had previously guarded and war criminals were convicted in Nuremberg and the nazi figure Hess was the last prisoner of a Berlin nazi prison.
Another reference I found important was that the Death Eaters are a mixture of intelligent and dumb people and that a genius like Dumbledore gets drawn to an idea so much that he ignores the evil connected with it to an extent. There were many smart people among the nazis and many who sympathised at first with the ideas, and when they realised what those ideas practically meant, they retreated and sometimes fought against them.

Good writers know the human nature extremely well, and JKR does know it exceptionally, which makes her characters seem so real. Which means, also if many references are not meant as such consciously, it's likely that they arise, as the writer knows what is realistic to happen if you add certain human characters to a background of certain events and it's not surprising then that similar things happen in fiction and reality.

Especially the classification into pureblood, halfblood, muggleborn and muggle always reminded me strongly of the nazi's devision into jew, half-jew, quarter jew, and even eighth jew, other races, and aryan. "Blood" was an important term in the nazi press and it was often spoken about the "dirty" jewish blood, which would contaminate the german "pure" blood.
Marrying a muggle is seen as a crime in the DE's mentality and degrades the family of the respective witch or wizard (see how it infuriates Bellatrix to be reminded of the Tonks family in HBP, chapter one) , similar to how germans who were married to jews were reduced to the status of whores in public opinion.

None of which were exclusively Nazi concepts. In parts of the US there was an exhaustive classification based on the proportion of black blood a person had. For example the law in Georgia stated that anyone "having any ascertainable trace of of either Negro or African, West Indian, or Asiatic Indian blood in his or her veins" was a "person of color".

And long after the Nazi era American states maintained miscegenation laws. Until 1948, 30 of the 48 states had such laws. When they were finally found to be unconstitutional in 1967, 16 states still had and enforced anti-miscegenation statutes.

http://lovingday.org/legal-map

I find it interesting that both Voldemort and Hitler made dumb mistakes that cost them the war. Voldemort constanly tried to kill Harry with AK despite it failing and Harry telling him to wouldn't work. He hid a horcrux in the room of requirment despite the fact that people had already hid stuff there. Did he not think that Harry would found it?

Hitler did not destroy the British at Dunkrik when he had the chance and instead allowed nearly 300,000 troops to get away. He had the chance to deliver a crushing blow and cripple England and let it slip through his finger. When he invaded Russia and won quickly in the first few months, his generals told him to attack Moscow right away because they could reach it before the Russian winter came, he ignored them and sent his troops to take the Ukriane. Another great opporunity was passed up. Then, he refused to allow Paulus to break out from Stalingrad and doomed the Sixth Army. In the final months of hi life, he was ordering imaginary divisions to attack despite the fact that these divisions had already been wiped out. He had lost his mind.

Also, the comparsion between the Death Eaters and the Nazis is a valid one. Both groups had charsimatic and frightening leader who had the ability to draw in and hold their listeners in a trance. The Death Eaters appealed to those who wanted powers, had interest in the dark arts, and were simply weak leaches latching on to other powerful figures. Their ideas of mudblood being weaker and deserving of death only reinforced the feelings of the members who had joined that they were special and above others. The Nazis appealed to the Germans because they offered a solution to the economic depression and misery following WWI. The Jews were the perfect scapegoat because the Jews had been despised since the Roman Empire was around. The Nazis just played on already existing hatred and racial feelings to send their messages and make people join them. The Nazis were the one with all the solution in their owns words. They knew what the people wanted and gave them to them by employing massive numbers of unemployed mens and womens to begin productions for war. They were far more effective than the Death Eaters for they were able to spread through their teachings and bizzare ideology throught the effective use of Propaganda with radio, movies, speechs, demonstrations, posters, etc. Whatever could be use to promote the Nazis message was exploited to the full degree. The Germans people themselves had no real problem about the Nazis message because the economy was growing, people had jobs, the problem of the Jews causing trouble was taken care of, and Hitler was the Messiah who had arrived to save them. The majority of German did not truly care about the Jews or their suffering becuase they were well off.

The SS and the Einsatzgruppen were not some demonic and evil figures. They were simply ordinary people who appear to enjoy thinking of themselves as the Master Race and asserting their rights over the Jews, Romas, Homosexual, disabled, Gypsy, etc. They were ruthless killing machines who had been conditioned to kill and show no mercy to the weak and innocent. The only difference between them and the Death Eaters is that the Death Eaters were wizards while the SS and Einsatzgruppen were human and that the SS were far more effective and methodical in killing millions of people in a short span of time. Their extermination might have been only matched by the OGPU and later NKVD in Russia, Mao's China, Rawanda, Bosnia, and Pol Pot Cambodia in term of extermination and mass deaths.

Well, Umbridge and Voldemort were Hitler-like...
Also, often love and mushy stuff saved lives.

I find it interesting that both Voldemort and Hitler made dumb mistakes that cost them the war. Voldemort constanly tried to kill Harry with AK despite it failing and Harry telling him to wouldn't work. He hid a horcrux in the room of requirment despite the fact that people had already hid stuff there. Did he not think that Harry would found it?

Firstly, well put.

Secondly, in response to the above quote, no, Voldemort didn't think Harry would ever find the horcrux because he was so arrogant that he thought that only he was clever enough to use the room of requirement. He probably thought that all the other stuff in the room was just there to help conceal whatever he wanted to hide rather than evidence of past users.

Hitler did not destroy the British at Dunkrik when he had the chance and instead allowed nearly 300,000 troops to get away. He had the chance to deliver a crushing blow and cripple England and let it slip through his finger. When he invaded Russia and won quickly in the first few months, his generals told him to attack Moscow right away because they could reach it before the Russian winter came, he ignored them and sent his troops to take the Ukriane. Another great opporunity was passed up. Then, he refused to allow Paulus to break out from Stalingrad and doomed the Sixth Army. In the final months of hi life, he was ordering imaginary divisions to attack despite the fact that these divisions had already been wiped out. He had lost his mind.


I may be wrong in my rememberance (I'm no historian) but I heard once that germany's war was basically lost because Hilter was trying to maintain personal control over everything to the point where he was the one commanding "invisible" troops and not "trusting" his generals -- who were all very intelligent, strategic men -- to call the shots. (If that had been the case Germany might have won the war) I think it's an apt comparison to Voldemort who seemed to always want to be the one to do the dirty work where Harry was concerned and how if he had gone ahead and let one of his "generals" (i.e. Bellatrix, Malfoy Sr, Crouch Jr, the Carrows, etc.) take Harry out he may have "won his war." (Granted, Harry having a horcrux inside of him probably meant he probably wouldn't just keel over dead had just anyone killed him)

Well, Umbridge and Voldemort were Hitler-like...
Also, often love and mushy stuff saved lives.

I don't agree that Umbridge was hilter-like. She was certainly running high on a power trip but I think of her more like a corrupt executive or politician than a hilter-figure. She was certainly prejudiced but she didn't have the ideology that hilter and voldemort are known for - she tauts other people's beliefs in order to further her own ambitions and maintain her own status as evidenced by her 'switching sides' when the MoM was taken over in DH - she didn't care who was in charge so long as she maintained her place or got more authority.

And I don't see how "love and mushy stuff saved lives" in WWII so that's not even a relavant statement.

I've made some connections between Voldemort and Hitler: Both are dictators who were trying to purify the human race.

Also, there seems to be other parallels to this time period in the fact that this is the second war in the wizarding world, and the Deathly Hallows films have a lot of visual similarities to other war films.

Has anyone else made these connections before? And if so, what relevance do these parallels have, what's the point?