The Evans Sisters

This was one of the most interesting revelations to me: we finally get to see Petunia and Lily together, and find out why Petunia hates magic (and her sister) so much, yet took Harry in.

It seems that they were actually good friends when they were young, and it was Lily's magical ability that drove them apart. Petunia was wildly jealous, and furiously angry that she could not go to Hogwarts. Why did she never learn to accept that she was not magical? Could Lily have handled things better between them, perhaps?

I'm not sure anything can excuse Petunia for her behaviour. Explain it, yes, but not excuse it. I am glad it was explained, but what I find the cruelest thing is on Harry's first day at Hogwarts, Petunia knew how to get onto the platform, but still left him there. I find it very sad she could never get over her jealousy, especially when her own sister was murdered by magic - it did certainly cause problems being magical, in Petunia's generation.

Well, I kind of always suspected that Petunia's "hatred" for her sister was jealousy, but still - I am surprised by how deep-rooted it was how and how much of hold she allowed to take over her. In a way, I kind of think of her as Filch now - so bitter about his lack of magic that he takes it out on the students. The only diff is that Filch is still actively trying to become magical and Peturnia is doing the opposite: condemning it to soothe herself, so that she should feel that she is really not missing out on anything.

Personally, I don't think that there was something that Lilly could have done differently. I imagine that she did the best she could. Personally I think perhaps their parents may have more responsibility here. They should have found ways to make Petunia feel special for who she was, and assure her that they were just as proud of her and loved her just as much as Lilly. Of course, they may have done so - but I don't get that vibe. I get the feeling that Petunia was a bit neglected herself.

I felt really sorry for Petunia! I hadn't realised that her jealousy was so strong that she even wrote to Dumbledore. Was it that she wanted to do magic, do you think, or that she wanted to be Lily's equal? That she wanted to be able to do everything she could do, and to be seen as just as good by their parents? I suspect the latter, and the parents seem to have dealt with it badly.

It's an odd twist that the girl who isn't magic, who is like the parents, should be the one ignored by the parents and made to feel an outcast. I've alwyas got the impression that Hermione's parents, for instance, are a bit bemused by her because they can't really share her world.

I agree that it's sad, to see how badly she wanted to be at Hogwarts, but I just can't believe how much it made her bitter, to the point of not helping her sister's son who lost both of his parents. She knew about hogwarts, but played dumb when the owl's first started coming, she knew where the platform was to get on the train, but wouldn't help harry find it, she knew about Snape, and his infatuation with Lily, but never breathed a word of it to him.

I feel bad for her yes, but also despise how she was so cold-hearted to her sister's orphaned son.

I think Petunia had a pre-existing personality conflict with Lily because they had a different way of dealing with the world all along. Petunia was a worrier and a conformist. You can see this because frets over Lily demonstrating her abilities in public and reminds her their mom said not to do that. As opposed to saying cool! do it again. Lily is brave and not a conformist- a Gtiffindor who maintains a friendship with a Slytherin. The two of them couldn't have been best friend type siblings.

Then it turns out Lily is a witch and gets to go to a cool school, so Petunia is jealous. Add to that the part where she feels betrayed when Lily and Snape snoop.

I don't know what Lily could have done- maybe not calling her "Tuney" could have helped. ;) But in the estrangement that results, I think Petunia chose it and Lily couldn't change her choice.

A theory:
Petunia actually cared about her sister a great deal, deep down, and it was her sister's magical death that turned her against magic for good. She couldn't bear the sight of Harry, because he reminded her of Lily so much.
Discuss. No flames please.

I always suspected that Petunia was jealous. The vehemence in which she spoke to Harry at the shack in the middle of the ocean, telling him about Lily and about her being a "freak" and then all the actions afterwards led me to believe it was jealously....a lot of it. I do, however, believe that perhaps Lily could have handled it differently. We only seen snatches through Snape's eyes so really we don't know how she handled it aside from those glimpses through Snape's eyes. She wanted to get into Hogwarts as well. Apparently she had really been close to Lily and following Lily in what she did seemed to be something that she wanted.
Like magic took Lily away from Petunia.

PaulSSC that's definitely something to think about there. I like that idea.
Shunning Harry and treating him so badly because she loved her sister and cared so much about it and the magic she detested because it took Lily away from her in the first place, she seen as ultimately taking her away for good. She blamed the magic all along and then she gets stuck with Harry which reminds her daily of what mistakes she made in not being there for her sister. Something like that. I know I may not have worded that as I wanted. I hope that it's understandable. LOL!

I am glad it was explained, but what I find the cruelest thing is on Harry's first day at Hogwarts, Petunia knew how to get onto the platform, but still left him there.

I didn't think of that! That is really shocking and sad. I agree: it is the cruelest thing.

Now we realise how much she DID know about the magical world! She's even BEEN at Platform 9 3/4 and she's communicated with Dumbledore..........

A theory:
Petunia actually cared about her sister a great deal, deep down, and it was her sister's magical death that turned her against magic for good. She couldn't bear the sight of Harry, because he reminded her of Lily so much.
Discuss. No flames please.

That's a bit of Snape's excuse for his treatment of Harry too. Hmmm, Lily's love saves Harry, but the love of Lily drives these characters to treat Harry like dirt.

Ok, wait.
If Dumbledore had previously written to Petunia when she was school age, that would have been his "first", (as in "Remember My First, Petunia") right? NOT the letter he left when Harry died. So what would've been in that first letter to force her to reconsider keeping Harry?

i remember that dumbledore had told her in book six "we had corresponded before" i thought he meant "remember my last" but now i think maybe he was referring to the letter that she had sent him and his reply that snape and lily had found.

i think when petunia was venting about her sister and how she got herself "blown up" she really was mourning her sister's death and was directing her anger and loss to lily, as if it were her fault she died b/c of magic in the first place. and i think she was jealous of lily, definitely b/c of the magic skills, but also b/c lily had an admirer who pretty much wasn't interested in petunia b/c she's "just a muggle." also i think she was jealous of the friendship between them because she wanted to be close to her sister like this strange boy was.

My question is did Petunia know that it was Harry's "fault" that Lilly died and her resentment with harry and magic is perhaps resentment with losing her sister, because i found it weird that Petunia had given Lilly a a vase as gift (mentioned in the partial letter in Grimauld place) which suggest they still had a relationship beyond their childhood squabbles.

Personally, when I found out that Petunia wanted to desperately go to Hogwarts, I wanted to laugh! For me, that was a wonderful comical moment. But seeing the discussion here, I now see that there is so much unspoken issues that go so deep between Petunia and Harry. Petunia was indeed attuned to the magical world, but I can't blame her for forgetting some stuff if she had worked so hard for so many years to forget it.

Yes, the whole platform thing was indeed harsh, but I can't blame her for not revealing the location to Harry. It would have been so out of character, and too soon for us to know. She and Vernon wanted to stamp the magic out of Harry, so if by helping him would get him to Hogwarts, she would be hypocritical to her own beliefs.

And I do see that Petunia and Snape are just the same, no matter how much they seemed to dislike each other: they both were willing to protect Harry because they both loved Lily. They just couldn't believe that Harry took the one person they loved away from them. But to hold on to Lily, they had to "hold on to" Harry too.

Wow...this seems more tragic than I ever thought...=D

My question is did Petunia know that it was Harry's "fault" that Lilly died and her resentment with harry and magic is perhaps resentment with losing her sister, because i found it weird that Petunia had given Lilly a a vase as gift (mentioned in the partial letter in Grimauld place) which suggest they still had a relationship beyond their childhood squabbles.

That point about the relationship and the gift does leave a lot of questions. If you consider that Veron had never met Harry does that mean that Petunia had also never meet Harry or was she meeting and talking with his sister on the quiet???

THat ppoint about the relationship and the gift does leave a lot of questions. If you consider that Veron had never met Harry does that mean that Petunia had also never meet Harry or was she meeting and talking with his sister on the quiet???

OH RIGHT! It just hit me that Petunia always denied having a sister, and yet she sent Lily a vase when Harry was about one. Hmmm, then again, I think she had to have kept contact with Lily because she knew Harry's name when Vernon asked her in the first book.

So I think the root of the dislike for Harry and wizards really took root with Lily's death. I think before that, she was just scared because as someone previously said, she was more of a conformist and scared of what others would think more than anything else.

I just love the fact that Lily called her sister "Tuney." That's gold, right there.

Ok, wait.
If Dumbledore had previously written to Petunia when she was school age, that would have been his "first", (as in "Remember My First, Petunia") right? NOT the letter he left when Harry died. So what would've been in that first letter to force her to reconsider keeping Harry?

There probably wasn't anything in that letter that would cause Petunia to keep Harry. Dumbledore's Howler actually said "Remember my last" which I believe would be the letter that he left with Harry that night on the doorstep.

I really loved Petunia and Lily's relationship being shown in Deathly Hallows. I understand Petunia and bit better now, and I agree with the others who said that said that her hatred of Lily and of magic was more jealousy of Lily and anger that she died because of magic.

i had completely forgotten about the vase. i also just realized that when dumbledore goes to get harry in the 6th book and says he turns of age in a year that she interrupts and says it is 2 years. but unless they changed the law to be of age wouldn't she already know that a wizard/witch turns of age at 17 not 18 because of lily and snape. you know lily didn't seem that upset about the vase so i think it was more of a it's the holidays and because your my sister i have to send you something type of vase

It's odd that when they were kids, they seemed like the best of friends. Then when Lily got her Hogwarts letter and Petunia didn't, she just became jealous. It's like she never even hated her sister, she was just extremely jealous. Now we know why Petunia took Harry in. Despite her jealousy, she still loved her sister.

I was glad that it was because Petunia was jealous, and not for some other reason. I was shocked when I found out that Snape lived really close to them, but when I found out I thought that my Snape loved Petunia theory was also plausible, even though it wasn't true. I quite liked Petunia in this memory until I saw her being jealous...

I wouldn't be too hard on Petunia. Yes, she was jealous; I think most people would be if their siblings could do magic and you couldn't. She probably felt isolated, and Snape dropping a branch on her didn't help. The book also explained why Petunia knew about dementors, and "that nasty boy" was not James but Snape.

I mean.. Yeah, now we understand it.
But just because she couldn't get into Hogwarts is no reason to lock harry under the stairs!

Interesting thread.

I never was quite big on the attitude towards of muggles in these books. Mr. Weasley looks at non-magic users like some sort of trained monkeys. (the term muggles alone is offensive in my book). Hermione does a memory charm on her parents. Who is she to play god with people's identities even if it is for the 'greater good' as was tossed around a bit in this book? They should have been taken into hiding like Harry's family was. Anyway...

One kid is great at sports, another isn't. One is a straight A student, the other isn't. Doing magic would blow that out of the water.

It's really a sad situation. I can see the argument that perhaps the Evens may have neglected Petunia in favor of their Lily, once they found out she was a witch (Although, I feel worse for Filch who is a outcast in both worlds).

How about this:
Dumbledore explains in his letter to Petunia the details concerning the Potters death and how Lily's protection charm over Harry will extend over her roof, so she's really isn't even given much choice in the matter but to raise Harry; otherwise, she'll be responsible if Voltemort took another shot at him. Raise Harry or you put him in mortal danger. Dumbledore is really good at emotional blackmail as we all know.

Petunia has spent the better part of her life thrust into the absolute worst aspect of the wizarding world (her entire family could be in danger because a dark wizard is obsessed with a prophecy he only partially heard second hand... how crazy is that if you think about it), but without any of the preaks that come with it.

The truth about Ariana hit me like a brick. Three muggle boys literally robbed her of her magical life. It more than excused Mr. Dumbledore's actions. Muggles are inherently weaker than their magical counterparts, and it is only through the work of great people like Albus Dumbledore that they do not get discriminated against more than they already do.

I'm not sure anything can excuse Petunia for her behaviour. Explain it, yes, but not excuse it. I am glad it was explained, but what I find the cruelest thing is on Harry's first day at Hogwarts, Petunia knew how to get onto the platform, but still left him there. I find it very sad she could never get over her jealousy, especially when her own sister was murdered by magic - it did certainly cause problems being magical, in Petunia's generation.

I agree that this seems overly cruel. I would say, however, that this is JKR's fault. I do not believe that she knew what she was going to do in the 7th book when she wrote the 1st. I would guess that she decided to make Petunia know a lot more about the wizarding world while she was planning books 4 through 7. If you go back and read book 1 it seems as though there are quite a few inconsistencies. But that's just me.

It's hard to blame young Petunia for her jealousy- anyone who has siblings has fought over a toy. Lily's magic was the biggest, shiniest toy in the room, and Tuney couldn't touch it.

Also, magic separated the sisters, both physically and emotionally.

Finally, as people have said, it was the magic world that caused Lily's death.

Petunia wanted to shield her family from all that as much as she could, and unfortunately, she handled it really poorly. In the end though, I don't think of her as bad, so much as scared.

I agree that Petunia was scared off of magic by Lily's death. Also, I think that she really didn't hate Harry that much (how exactly does a normal woman hate a child she has raised from a baby?) but was bullied into it a bit by Vernon.

I thought it was a really interesting revelation. I liked it.

Petunia doesn't seem like the time to just accept that she's not magical. She probably was extremely jealous and felt that this was Lily being better than her. I have always had a feeling that perhaps their parents favoured Lily and that's why Petunia was so jealous of her. Lily should have been more sympathetic and less "I know you even wrote a letter to Hogwarts and were rejected" sort of stuff. Lily should have been nicer and made more of an effort.

It's no wonder Petunia doesn't like Harry so much. He reminds her that she doesn't have any magical powers and will never be like her sister. Still, she should have treated Harry a bit nicer.

Being jealous as a child is one thing,but to carry through your life is another.Lily was very kind to petunia,you get the impression that she really loved her sister.I'm sure she never rubbed petunias face in the fact that she was a witch,I actually think she continued to try to be close to petunia.Eitherway I don't think this forgives her treatment of Harry,he was so little.
I can understand petunia being jealous and very upset,but is it something to lose a sister over?

I agree that Petunia was scared off of magic by Lily's death. Also, I think that she really didn't hate Harry that much (how exactly does a normal woman hate a child she has raised from a baby?) but was bullied into it a bit by Vernon.

Yea, she so wanted to say something else before she left to go into hiding... I wonder what it may have been?

I'm not sure anything can excuse Petunia for her behaviour. Explain it, yes, but not excuse it. I am glad it was explained, but what I find the cruelest thing is on Harry's first day at Hogwarts, Petunia knew how to get onto the platform, but still left him there. I find it very sad she could never get over her jealousy, especially when her own sister was murdered by magic - it did certainly cause problems being magical, in Petunia's generation.


I didn't even think of the Platform.
Her story is so so SAD.
Like Snape's in a way [Snape's was sadder, though, obviously]

She hated it because magic took away her sister and friend-
and she couldn't follow, she obviously hated that she was not special, as would anyone! It would be EXTREMELY hard to handle your sibling beinig ushered into an amazing world that shut the door on you! I'm not at all surprised they ended up estranged. And Petunia may have been a better, more open person, had magic not been revealed to her.

It doesn't make her abuse of Harry ok though. Yuck. She had a son, how could she not see that treating a child badly was wrong?

Both Snape and Petunia mistreated Harry
But underneath, they were protecting him... funny, two characters I never would have thought had so much in common. It all comes back to Lily.

Still, I feel Snape was redeemed, and not Petunia.

I guess we really get to understand the sisters relationship now. I loved how Lilly called Petunia "Tuney" I thought it was cute.

Does anybody think she got over it a little...she did send Lily a Christmas present as we see from the letter Harry reads? Maybe she started to hate magic even more because she thought her sister has stupid enough to just get killed because of it. To a jelous mind that could make sense.

Still doesn't make me like her more though because she never got over it and she didn't even say anything to Harry when he last saw them.

Petunia's anger is perfectly reasonable- it stems from fear. Here she is, the oldest daughter (usually a coveted position in a family) and her younger sister turns out to have talents far beyond her own.

The way I read it, Petunia is afraid her parents would love her less for lacking in magic (which takes on a second meaning as well- the older child feeling supplanted by the new). In trying to understand, or at least get a piece of this for herself, Petunia writes to Dumbledore asking to go to Hogwarts as well- I'm not clear on whether he said it was feasible or not, but having to ask for something her younger sister was given would be upsetting as well. And if she were rejected the feeling would be magnified.

Rather than being able to find comfort in telling herself that her sister is a freak, Petunia then finds that there are others like Lily and that she, Petunia, is likely the freak instead. And then, to add insult to injury, Lily falls in love and has a child- rather than Lily having magical powers and being miserable as a result, she's able to lead a life that is nominally normal and everything that Petunia might want for herself.

I would say that magic definitely drove a wedge between them, but that Petunia's fear of the unknown and her inability to be happy for her sister was the final nail in the relationship's coffin.

Just as Snape and Lily were divided later, Petunia let Lily's difference come between them. And, like Snape, Petunia was unable to release the grudge she bore when Lily took a different path.

This may seem like a bit of a stretch but is it possible that Petunia could be feeling guilty? She trys to persuade Lily not to meet snape so perhaps she tryed to get lily to give up magic alltogether. If she was then when Lily died she would feel guilty that she hadnt been able to stop the chain of events that led to her death. This might slightly explain her treatment of Harry, by trying to squash the magic out of him she would think she was protecting him.

It was all a matter of jealousy in the end. Petunia just started using the word 'freak' about those who use magic to hide her pain at not being a witch.

I always felt that Petunia was highly jealous of Lily's magical abilities. This jealousy drove a wedge between their relationship, as can be seen when Petunia doesn't show any grief when discussing her sister's death.

In the first book you know she felt jealous of Lily because of the way she talks about how her parent were so proud of their magical daughter. Magic ruined her relationship with her parents and her sister--and having Snape mistreat her and name-call her didn't help either. On top of that Dumbledore rejected her. To her magic and those belonging to the magical world were all the same--things that would end in her hurt and humiliation.

I think the way she treats Harry both stems from the neglect she felt and her hatred of all things magic. To compensate for her own neglect she over-indulges her own Muggle son and completely neglects Harry to the point of abuse. It's as if he doesn't even exist to their household--living under a staircase, wearing discards. It's ironic how he even ended up dressed like young Snape, the boy Petunia hated so much. Maybe she thought subconsciously if Harry were neglected like herself, he wouldn't turn out to be magical either.

What we see in Petunia Dursley is merely a reflection of how the wizarding world is biased against Muggles and everything pertaining to Muggles. The only truly amazing aspect of the story is Lily and how she bridged the two opposing worlds. She was able to love both Snape and Petunia without bias, so much so that despite their natures and how they turned out, they would both begrudgingly accept and even protect Harry. She never allowed lies and abuse from those two either, but was able to love the best parts of them and even understand their weaknesses when no one else would.

Petunia's anger is perfectly reasonable- it stems from fear. Here she is, the oldest daughter (usually a coveted position in a family) and her younger sister turns out to have talents far beyond her own.

The way I read it, Petunia is afraid her parents would love her less for lacking in magic (which takes on a second meaning as well- the older child feeling supplanted by the new). In trying to understand, or at least get a piece of this for herself, Petunia writes to Dumbledore asking to go to Hogwarts as well- I'm not clear on whether he said it was feasible or not, but having to ask for something her younger sister was given would be upsetting as well. And if she were rejected the feeling would be magnified.

Rather than being able to find comfort in telling herself that her sister is a freak, Petunia then finds that there are others like Lily and that she, Petunia, is likely the freak instead. And then, to add insult to injury, Lily falls in love and has a child- rather than Lily having magical powers and being miserable as a result, she's able to lead a life that is nominally normal and everything that Petunia might want for herself.

I would say that magic definitely drove a wedge between them, but that Petunia's fear of the unknown and her inability to be happy for her sister was the final nail in the relationship's coffin.

Just as Snape and Lily were divided later, Petunia let Lily's difference come between them. And, like Snape, Petunia was unable to release the grudge she bore when Lily took a different path.

Well said. It was definitely one of the more emotional moments in the book for me. I had to stop reading, put down the book, and process it.

There's no excuse at all for Petunia's actions towards Harry, however. She still was an awful, cruel, nasty woman to him. It would be interesting to hear what she wanted to say to Harry before she leaves with the Order.

EDIT: I just remembered! In OotP, when Harry asks Petunia how she knew what a Dementor was, she says she remembers hearing Lily and that "awful boy" talking about them. That wasn't James, that was Snape!

And I do see that Petunia and Snape are just the same, no matter how much they seemed to dislike each other: they both were willing to protect Harry because they both loved Lily. They just couldn't believe that Harry took the one person they loved away from them. But to hold on to Lily, they had to "hold on to" Harry too.

I think the difference between Snape and Petunia is that one chose to protect Harry out of love and the other was forced to. Harry was able to see some redemption in Snape through his memories, but there was nothing redeeming about Petunia because of the way she along with her husband and son treated Harry. Dudley was the only one who finally broke emotionally to tell Harry that he cared. And let's be honest....if it wasn't for the Dementor attack would Dudley have expressed those emotions?

This was one of the most interesting revelations to me: we finally get to see Petunia and Lily together, and find out why Petunia hates magic (and her sister) so much, yet took Harry in.

It seems that they were actually good friends when they were young, and it was Lily's magical ability that drove them apart. Petunia was wildly jealous, and furiously angry that she could not go to Hogwarts. Why did she never learn to accept that she was not magical? Could Lily have handled things better between them, perhaps?

I was glad to get the background on these two. There relationship reflects human nature. Some people are unable to deal with jealousy and allow it to take over and come between them. I'm sure everyone knows at least one set of siblings like this.

All this just makes me hate petunia more. Of the three dursleys, i used to like petunia, but now i hate her the most.

All this just makes me hate petunia more. Of the three dursleys, i used to like petunia, but now i hate her the most.

Meh. She's pitiable at worst. Can you imagine? She loathed her own sister for wrongs done in childhood, and when Lily died and Harry was put in her care Petunia had, tailormade, a way to repair the breach and instead she chose not and distanced herself from the one person (Harry) who could have benefitted most from her kindness. If she had just given him the tiniest bit of affection, shared what she knew of Lily with him, so many things might have done differently (and the story would have been less than it was, perhaps).

Instead, she (like Snape, who she referred to as "that awful boy") carried her hurt with her for her entire life. Worse, it was a burden of her own making.

Another way JKR illustrates that it's our choices that make us who we are.

Petunia was jealous of her sister, yes. But who is not jealous of their siblings at some point? They are smarter or better looking or get more attention from the parents or have cooler friends or better stuff or magical powers. Its always something, for Petunia it was the last. But most people learn to move on, and this was something that Petunia could not do. Lily did what was natural, she took advantage of the talents she was given and probably bragged about them a fair bit. But that doesnt mean that it was her fault that Petunia could not live with the jealousy. It is also wrong to say it is all Petunia's fault: any problem in a relationship is the fault of both involved parties.

it really made me hate Petunia because if she hadn't been so argumentitive and a bully towards Snape maybe lily and Snape might have got closer! Poor Snape

Petunia was jealous of her sister, yes. But who is not jealous of their siblings at some point? They are smarter or better looking or get more attention from the parents or have cooler friends or better stuff or magical powers. Its always something, for Petunia it was the last. But most people learn to move on, and this was something that Petunia could not do. Lily did what was natural, she took advantage of the talents she was given and probably bragged about them a fair bit. But that doesnt mean that it was her fault that Petunia could not live with the jealousy. It is also wrong to say it is all Petunia's fault: any problem in a relationship is the fault of both involved parties.

Hmm..I doubt Lily bragged about them,she doesn't seem the type.Its okay for Petunia to be jealous but to let it split them up.I'm sure if at any point Petunia wanted to reconcile with Lily she would have been more then happy too.It seemed they had no contact with each other at all.

Petunia was jealous of her sister, yes. But who is not jealous of their siblings at some point? They are smarter or better looking or get more attention from the parents or have cooler friends or better stuff or magical powers. Its always something, for Petunia it was the last. But most people learn to move on, and this was something that Petunia could not do. Lily did what was natural, she took advantage of the talents she was given and probably bragged about them a fair bit. But that doesnt mean that it was her fault that Petunia could not live with the jealousy. It is also wrong to say it is all Petunia's fault: any problem in a relationship is the fault of both involved parties.

We have proof that Lily certainly embraced her new "role"- coming home with pockets full of frogspawn, etc.- but we only know this from Petunia.

Lily's failing was only that she told Petunia she'd seen the letter from Dumbledore, but again, we only have this from Petunia's POV until Snape's memory shows that Lily is full of remorse for hurting Petunia's feelings.

Again, a childhood falling out that could have been easily overcome if Petunia hadn't been so... grudge-y, imo.

I just remembered something. In OotP, Harry is explaining about dementors, and Petunia lets slip that they guard Azkaban. Vernon is horrified that she knows this, and her explanation is something along the lines of, "I heard that awful boy telling her."

Clearly, the "her" refered to is Lily. I had always assumed that "that awful boy" was James, but Snape's memories reveal that it was actually Snape who told Lily about Azkaban. It's weird to think that, all along, Petunia knew the teacher who was giving Harry so much trouble throughout his school years.

Petunia always denied having a sister, and yet she sent Lily a vase when Harry was about one. Hmmm, then again, I think she had to have kept contact with Lily because she knew Harry's name when Vernon asked her in the first book.

Lily didn't like the vase, so was it really a gift to reform their bonds now that they both had babies? Or was it more like sending Harry a tissue or coin or toothpick for Christmas? I forget what that's called, backhanded? - like leaving a two-cent tip in a restaurant.

I thought it was interesting that Godric's Hollow was a mixed Muggle-Wizarding village. That meant that Petunia could come and visit if she wanted to (before the Fidelius Charm, anyway).

I really have to wonder, What was the contents of Dumbledore's "very kind" letter? Besides telling her she couldn't go to Hogwarts, did he tell her about Squibs and how they could still interact with the Wizarding world? Or did he say she'd be happier to forget about it, like Auntie Muriel suggested would be better for Squibs?

I love that Petunia got more complicated in the last book. I mean, she was always someone you loved to hate before but now there's some depth to her. Perhaps it is Lily's death that caused her rejection of the idea of magic since she was still, as an adult, sending gifts to Lily even if they were pro forma, I have to 'cause it's Christmas kind of gifts. However, her relationship with Harry is further complicated by her relationship with her husband. Petunia's choice of husband virtually ensured she could not reveal that she knew how to get Harry on Platform 9 and 3/4. She and Vernon also, at some point, discuss and decide to stamp the magic out of Harry. She chose to marry and chose to be the "worst sort of Muggle." I think it's even worse because what we know of Lily is that she defended and understood people and would never have treated Dudley so horribly if he had come to live with her family as Harry lived with Petunia.

A theory:
Petunia actually cared about her sister a great deal, deep down, and it was her sister's magical death that turned her against magic for good. She couldn't bear the sight of Harry, because he reminded her of Lily so much.
Discuss. No flames please.

:love: I love it... It actually eases my feelings. I like the Dursleys. I wished that Jo won't do them bad... :p

Ok, wait.
If Dumbledore had previously written to Petunia when she was school age, that would have been his "first", (as in "Remember My First, Petunia") right? NOT the letter he left when Harry died. So what would've been in that first letter to force her to reconsider keeping Harry?

Did Harry died? ---- in book 5? That is when DD sent the "remember my last" thing...

My question is did Petunia know that it was Harry's "fault" that Lilly died and her resentment with harry and magic is perhaps resentment with losing her sister, because i found it weird that Petunia had given Lilly a a vase as gift (mentioned in the partial letter in Grimauld place) which suggest they still had a relationship beyond their childhood squabbles.

the vase..... nice find. This actually makes the 'real reason of hatred' implied but not explicitly mentioned.
I think Jo really made the 'I wish to be in Hogwarts too' scene to make the readers feel that it's the real reason, not knowing that unless they read the book well, they will find that Lily and Petunia are in good terms until she died.

She hated magic since she's a child -YES., but Lily? I think she never hated her. Her jealousy lasts only for their childhood. 'The vase thing- I LOVE IT...
This just shows that it's only Lily's magical death that made her despise Harry and magic...

That's why she told Harry that Lily died in a carcrash, to avoid the pain that magic killed her... :err::err:


:)

I mentioned this in another thread, but I personally think that petunias character, her treatment of harry, and the explanation, was simply not convincing. Jk rowling states that the years of treating harry like a household pet was all due to petunia's was mere jealously of lily. I simply find this unbelievable. For a person to have treated harry that cruelly( and we know they were cruel for harry describes it as abuse) one would have to have much more than just feelings of jealousy. Most people may have resentment towards the child of someone who treated them very cruelly, which is why snapes treatment of harry was more believable and understandable. But mere jealously? I dont think so.
I think that Rowling could have given us a better explanation.

I would hardly call the way that Harry was treated showing love for her sister. Quite the contrary, I think it shows just how rotten she actually war. Jealously is a very strong emotion and it can make good people do horrible things. I do not think that there is any excuse for child abuse. Yes, she was hurt deeply, and yes she felt deserted by her sister, but that does not excuse her horrible behavior towards Harry. In my opinion it also does not even explain it properly.

I can't help but feel like Petunia's being judged a little too harshly - When we first see the sisters at the playground, Lily is under 11, personally I see Petunia as being within about two years of her - so she's 13 tops. You can't expect a 13 year old to act like a fully reasoning adult - and for gods sake her sister is doing MAGIC!

Siblings are always jealous of any slight thing, but Lily can FLY - Lily has this thing that's just beyond incredible, and Petunia has absolutely none of it, and no hope of getting it. And yeah, their parents probably did favor Lily - out of nowhere they find that their daughter is part of this totally unknown, amazing world, how could they not be blown away by that? How could they not treat her differently?

Being the sibling of a muggle-born witch or wizard must surely be one of the most miserable experiences possible.

Then years and years later, Petunia has made a life for herself - she has a husband, a son, a life of her own where she's not constantly in the shadow of her amazing sister. Out of nowhere there's a baby on her doorstep and a note from, of all people, the man who denied her one hope of entrance into the magical world (however kindly he did it), and he's demanding that she take this child in and raise him as her own.

NOTHING excuses the horrible way that the Dursleys treated Harry - but you can't fault Petunia for being jealous, even resentful, of Lily's abilities and of the child she was forced to take into her home.

Petunia's lot in life simply wasn't fair - she should have handled it better, she should have done a lot of things very differently, but at the least she deserves some understanding.

I really thought it was awesome that we got scenes of young Petunia and Lily. In fact, after reading it, I think it is a very vital part of the series. JKR has so many different, intensely believable characters - and many despicable ones. She uses them to teach us a lot about understanding people who may not treat us the way we'd like. She gives dimension to people like Snape and Petunia, who always seemed to be horrible without reason, although they played favourites with others. Like with Draco and Dudley, being in the spotlight of gross favour, of someone so nasty, seemed downright undesirable... at least to me. :rolleyes:

But the jealousy brings so much to both of those adult characters. Their relationship with Harry's mother was so influential that many of those horrible sentiments, of real love gone sour, were transferred to Harry, someone who for all intents and purposes was hardly involved. The idea that comes across to readers who have any moment of sympathy for Petunia because of the tragedy of her relationship with Lily ... I do think that it's an empathy that readers will carry with them. You never know what someone else is seeing when they look at you with an unpleasant expression. You never know what kind of complications may be in their hearts. Those kinds of deep-seated conflicts are hard to drag to the light in real situations, because there is such intense shame that is associated with it - and for very valid reasons, too.


Awesome lesson, love it :love:

I completly agree that nothing excuses P's behavior in raising Harry, nothing! but I'd like to add this little thought...the extra work. By this I mean here is P a fairly new wife and a fairly new mother (D's about 24 or so months old when Harry arrives on the porch) and viola another 15 month old. That's a LOT of work added to her life, active toddlers are not easy. On top of her unresolved jealously over L's ability, possble lack of attn from parents, myrters/hero's death (more attn going to L), grief of losing her sister, possible guilt for early childhood and later adult ships w/L, keeping her "magical" sister a secret from new family....that's a lot of stuff for a 23/25 ish year old to handle. While I don't care for P that much I do pity her. (I'm an older sib myself and quite jealous of my sister's son but would only love him if I was ever so unfortunate to raise him, I say unfortunate only bc I'd be losing my sister, having my nephew would be wonderful and hard work!)

Dudley was a month older than Harry. So that makes them both 14 months old. Still, having two toddlers had to be something: double the work. I think her jealously of Lily, magic and Snape warped her. And we know how Vernon felt about magic. He didn't help matters any.
I feel bad for all of them, Snape, Harry, Lily, and Petunia.

I think Petunia was jealous of Lily being a witch b/c it seemed cool and she had wanted to be a witch herself. She probably hated Lily for getting more attention which I presume Lily would have received for being a witch in a Muggle family. I think Petunia eventually convinced herself that Lily was weird for being a witch and it might have given her slight relief b/c she felt she was the better, more normal one. But it also caused her to despite magic and probably feel ashamed that she once wanted to be a part of the wizarding community. This shame could have also further caused her to shun away anything magical so that she wouldn't have to face the fact that she once desired having magical powers and stuff. All of this, the jealously and contempt and shame, could have lead her to have such a horrible relationship with her sister and in turn, with her nephew as well.
As for Lily, I don't really get her side of the enstrangement. I'm not saying that Lily was wholly innocent but I don't really get Lily's character enough to make a statement on what role she might have played in the relationship between herself and her sister. Lily broke ties with Snape, a friend who she had before Hogwarts, because he was hanging with the wrong crowd and was discriminatory against muggle-borns. Would she have broke ties with Petunia for loathing the wizarding world and hating Lily for being a witch? I don't really know what to say about that.

Petunia's heart was too hardened. I also don't think Lily understood her sister's position. Maybe if she tried saying to her that she was "special in her own way" or something like that maybe things would have worked out.

Look at how Ron felt overshadowed but he got over it. Petunia became too bitter. That's the difference. Her choice was not to move on. I do pity her though. I really do. Feeling overshadowed is horrible. You feel like you don't matter.

Sometimes people just need to know they are not alone and that their is someone out there that understands.

Well, we see hints that Petunia always had an streak of unpleasantness in her even before she found out Lily was a witch. I was annoyed slightly by this, because it kind of made it seem like she was always just mean and the jealousy of Lily thing just made her inherent nasty nature even worse. Wouldn't it have been something to see a totally innocent, normal, nice Petunia in the flashbacks?

This was one of the most interesting revelations to me: we finally get to see Petunia and Lily together, and find out why Petunia hates magic (and her sister) so much, yet took Harry in.

It seems that they were actually good friends when they were young, and it was Lily's magical ability that drove them apart. Petunia was wildly jealous, and furiously angry that she could not go to Hogwarts. Why did she never learn to accept that she was not magical? Could Lily have handled things better between them, perhaps?

No I think Petunia hated her, Lily's, existence because she was not magical. Lily was the younger sister and the older sister was spazzing because she did not appreciate Lily having what she did not. She was a horrible woman. She had Harry basically neglected the whole time he lived with her.

It seems that they were actually good friends when they were young, and it was Lily's magical ability that drove them apart.

I played with my sister when I was a kid. Not because we were "good friends" but out of convenience. We were the only kids in our neighborhood and all of our friends lived too far away for us to go visit at their houses and all of our cousins were at least six years older than us. We were playmates by default, not because we were friends or got along especially well (for all intents and purposes, we didn't get along a lot of the time). And it could very well be the case with Petunia and Lily that they were playmates of convenience.

Petunia's heart was too hardened. I also don't think Lily understood her sister's position. Maybe if she tried saying to her that she was "special in her own way" or something like that maybe things would have worked out.

Being told "you're special in your own way" by someone you feel is infinitely more special or talented or popular than yourself would be like that person mixing salt and lemon juice into a nice soupy slurry and then grinding it into every wound in your body. Petunia's jealousy of Lily was something that she had to deal with herself in her own way and in her own time. While it's a nice thought to think that Lily could have done something about it, I don't think there was really anything she could have done to change her relationship with her sister because it would also mean fundamentally changing who she was (a witch) and that would be impossible to do.

The sad thing is that Lily died before Petunia could really come to grips with her feelings on their relationship leaving her, IMO, in much the same stunted situation Snape was left in where they were both suddenly left with all these feelings and no way to really work them out.

Look at how Ron felt overshadowed but he got over it. Petunia became too bitter. That's the difference.

Ron got over it because of his personality, though, IMO. He was the consumate best friend and you see him instantly regretting rash actions that he's taken (such as leaving Harry and Hermione in DH) whereas Petunia didn't seem to have a forgiving personality, one that you could reason with or one that regretted her rash actions in the same way Ron did. Petunia seems to have a more jealous, defensive and unforgiving personality and it's shown from the start, or rather from the earliest/youngest memory of her.

Well, we see hints that Petunia always had an streak of unpleasantness in her even before she found out Lily was a witch. I was annoyed slightly by this, because it kind of made it seem like she was always just mean and the jealousy of Lily thing just made her inherent nasty nature even worse. Wouldn't it have been something to see a totally innocent, normal, nice Petunia in the flashbacks?

A totally innocent, normal, nice Petunia wouldn't have instantly turned on her sister in the way canon-Petunia did, though. If she initially had a nice, sweet personality and a loving, close relationship with Lily I feel like all of their problems would have been solved by 9-year-old Lily sitting down with 10/11-year-old Petunia and hashing things out right then. For story-telling reasons JKR needed to instantly and irrevocably drive a wedge between Petunia and Lily and the eaisest and fastest way of doing that is to begin things with Petunia already having a less than pleasant personality, otherwise JKR would have had to write scene after scene after boring scene showing the fracturing of Lily and Petunia's relationship and she was already committed to showing that exact same thing with Snape and Lily which was the more important relationship in terms of the HP series and the one that rightfully got more page time, IMO, in showing it falling apart.

No I think Petunia hated her, Lily's, existence because she was not magical. Lily was the younger sister and the older sister was spazzing because she did not appreciate Lily having what she did not. She was a horrible woman. She had Harry basically neglected the whole time he lived with her.

IMO it comes down to personality. IMO, people are born with their personalities and everything that happens to you in life simply helps to shape how that personality manifests itself. Petunia, to me, was born with a personality that was prone to jealousy. Add to that a sibling (a normal one) and you get regular sibling jealousy that every person with a brother or sister feels, but Petunia was unlucky in that she was born with an exceptionally unique sister so her already jealous personality developed into one that became bitter and hateful. I don't think any outside force could have made Petunia change her mind about resenting Lily; that would have to have been a decision made by Petunia herself.

I feel like Petunia's jealousy (that I for one completely identify with- imagine- being the non-magical sister?!) is associated with the pain of exclusion; Lily's natural (also understandable) desire to be around a young Snape- who could introduce her to an entirely new world- meant that Petunia no longer "mattered".
Petunia is immature to hold onto it into adulthood, but Vernon helped her to validate these feelings of hurt and inferiority. I think Vernon acts as a buffer for that pain- a shield- because he is a big, unwavering man Petunia can feel justified in sharing her "hatred" of magic, because it can be easier to share anger than be alone, hurt and vulnerable.

I'm not sure anything can excuse Petunia for her behaviour. Explain it, yes, but not excuse it. I am glad it was explained, but what I find the cruelest thing is on Harry's first day at Hogwarts, Petunia knew how to get onto the platform, but still left him there. I find it very sad she could never get over her jealousy, especially when her own sister was murdered by magic - it did certainly cause problems being magical, in Petunia's generation.

Perhaps she knew he would (most likely) find his way? Thus she didn't have to lose face in front of Vernon or give up her grudge...


Interesting thread.

I never was quite big on the attitude towards of muggles in these books. Mr. Weasley looks at non-magic users like some sort of trained monkeys. (the term muggles alone is offensive in my book). Hermione does a memory charm on her parents. Who is she to play god with people's identities even if it is for the 'greater good' as was tossed around a bit in this book? They should have been taken into hiding like Harry's family was.


I agree! I was particularly offended by the information on "Technology" revealed in Pottermore. My initial reaction to that article was disappointment; "wizards are better than muggles" sounds alarmingly similar to "pure bloods are better than mudbloods".

what I find the cruelest thing is on Harry's first day at Hogwarts, Petunia knew how to get onto the platform, but still left him there.

Petunia wasn't even there. Harry was taken to Diagon Alley with Hagrid who then took him on to King's Cross station where he left him with a train ticket and no information on how to get onto the platform. If anyone is to be "blamed" for not informing Harry how to get to Platform 9 3/4 it's Hagrid, not Petunia.

Anyway, back to Lily and Petunia.

Petunia wasn't even there. Harry was taken to Diagon Alley with Hagrid who then took him on to King's Cross station where he left him with a train ticket and no information on how to get onto the platform. If anyone is to be "blamed" for not informing Harry how to get to Platform 9 3/4 it's Hagrid, not Petunia.

Anyway, back to Lily and Petunia.

To be honest Petunia did drive to the station with them [SS, ch. 6, p. 90-91]. I think the poster was right about Petunia being cruel here because we are told, "Harry turned and saw the Dursleys drive away. All three of them were laughing." [p. 91]

Petunia wasn't even there. Harry was taken to Diagon Alley with Hagrid who then took him on to King's Cross station where he left him with a train ticket and no information on how to get onto the platform. If anyone is to be "blamed" for not informing Harry how to get to Platform 9 3/4 it's Hagrid, not Petunia.

That's in the film; in the book Hagrid takes Harry back to Privet Drive and he has to awkwardly ask them after a month if they could drive him to King's Cross. They did, because they had to go to London anyways to remove Dudley's pig tail, but laughed pretty cruelly at him when he had no idea how to get onto Platform 9 3/4.

It's because of that over-the-top ridiculous behavior I could never take any of the Dursleys, including Petunia, seriously in anything they did. Including their role as "abusive family".

It's because of that over-the-top ridiculous behavior I could never take any of the Dursleys, including Petunia, seriously in anything they did. Including their role as "abusive family".
Yeah, like the 37 presents for Dudley on his birthday. JK Rowling definitely exaggerated in her characterization of the Dursleys. Or maybe we are just exaggerating on the psychoanalysis of the characters from the series. :lol:

Because a lot of them are simply meant to be caricatures. Like the Dursleys. ;)

I agree. I don't like the word muggle. I was upset when Ron said something about how doctors were crazy people or something. And Mrs. Weasley did not want them to give Mr. Weasley stitches after he was attacked by the snake. You have to excuse me I'm writing this on memory.

While Hermione's intentions were good. You have a point. She had power over her parents. I feel that they did not know a lot about the war. And she seemed to spend some of the summer and the school year away. I always wondered if their relationship was strained.

It made me wonder if this contributed to Petunia probably feeling that Lily left her behind.

I agree. I don't like the word muggle.

According to JKR in an interview when asked by a fan:
julesrbf: Where did you come up with the word "muggle"?
JK Rowling replies -> I was looking for a word that suggested both foolishness and loveability. The word 'mug' came to mind, for somebody gullible, and then I softened it. I think 'muggle' sounds quite cuddly.
JK Rowling World Book Day Chat 4/4/2004 (http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrwbd.shtml)

She more or less tells us that her intention for the word "muggle" was to be a little silly which in terms of a children's book seems pretty harmless. In terms of what the HP series ended up being about and how grown up they became in terms of themes and content, though, I would have prefered a word that sounded less deragatory in its origins seeing as how she uses her intentions of coming up with a "foolish" sounding name to characterize how most wizards seem to view non-magical people; even the Weasleys who we are meant to see as tolerant and kind to muggles view them with a bit of derision and, I think, feel a little superior to them.

But this is off topic, let's bring it back around to the Evans sisters...

I was upset when Ron said something about how doctors were crazy people or something. And Mrs. Weasley did not want them to give Mr. Weasley stitches after he was attacked by the snake. You have to excuse me I'm writing this on memory.

Wizards don't understand muggles or muggle technology, though, and seem genuinely disinterested in learning about them in any real way. Molly's fear of "stitches" is due entirely to her ignorance having grown up in such an insular magical world. Lily and other muggleborns, IMO, have the best of it since they would come to understand both worlds the best, not because they "studied" the muggle world but because she grew up as a part of that muggle world's culture and had to return to it every summer. Had her relationship with Petunia been patched up I think her relationship with the muggle world would have been even strong since she would have had a continued reason to inteact with the muggle world past her parents' deaths, assuming she didn't keep any of her muggle friends (whom she would continually have to lie about herself and her life to)

I pity muggleborns, actually, for what they have to give up in order to have magic. That's a different topic, though.