Severus Snape's Death

The guilt did get to Snape, yes, but I don't think he would have seen no point in living. I believe that everyone in the book is afraid of dying, except for Harry. Only Harry died willingly. I am sure that the one way Snape was a coward was in the face of death. He kept making excuses to get himself out of the shrieking shack in fear that he might die under Voldemort's wrath!

I think the main thing he feared was that he would die before he could pass along the crucial information he had for Harry. And I don't see him as victim to Voldemort's wrath, more like to Voldemort's indifference.

But I like your point about everyone fearing death but Harry. And I do think Snape probably feared the act of dying (who doesn't?) just not necessarily the fact of being dead. I imagine he sees death as a relief at this point.

I also think he would have preferred a different place and method for dying (I'm sure he HATED dying in the Shrieking Shack), but he wasn't going to bother defending himself. What's the use? If Voldemort wins, Snape's sacrifices have been in vain. If Harry wins, it'll be by dying (or so Snape has been led to believe), in which case Snape's whole purpose has been in vain. It's a lose-lose situation. Why fight it? Wouldn't he rather die now than stick around to see the light in Lily's (Harry's) eyes go out forever?

Really, that's how I interpreted that whole bit, because otherwise it doesn't make sense for a wizard of Snape's talent to not defend himself or escape.

I think the main thing he feared was that he would die before he could pass along the crucial information he had for Harry. And I don't see him as victim to Voldemort's wrath, more like to Voldemort's indifference.

But I like your point about everyone fearing death but Harry. And I do think Snape probably feared the act of dying (who doesn't?) just not necessarily the fact of being dead. I imagine he sees death as a relief at this point.

I also think he would have preferred a different place and method for dying (I'm sure he HATED dying in the Shrieking Shack), but he wasn't going to bother defending himself. What's the use? If Voldemort wins, Snape's sacrifices have been in vain. If Harry wins, it'll be by dying (or so Snape has been led to believe), in which case Snape's whole purpose has been in vain. It's a lose-lose situation. Why fight it? Wouldn't he rather die now than stick around to see the light in Lily's (Harry's) eyes go out forever?

Really, that's how I interpreted that whole bit, because otherwise it doesn't make sense for a wizard of Snape's talent to not defend himself or escape.

That’s a really nice way of looking at it. It does make a lot of sense that way.

I wish I could find when (I think it's Dumbledore) muses that the students are perhaps Sorted too soon... some of the things in "The Prince's Tale" really make me think of Snape in that light.

Also, for those with the US edition, to read the paragraph where the black eyes meet the green eyes and Snape is no more, and then to see the illustration that is on the first page of "The Prince's Tale," I also found that very moving. While the event in and of itself wasn't surprising (moving is definitely the word that describes my reaction), seeing that illustration of the awkward child Snape just broke my heart.

Oddly enough, I think Snape's death was dignified. It allowed him to fulfill the role that he was to play (as mentioned by many other posts I've skimmed through in this thread) - and I agree totally with NutmegNevis's comment on Snape and irony. Though an unpleasant character, he (Snape) is one of the most complex and fascinating characters in the entire series.

I know that some people have wondered why Snape didn't leave a portrait with his death. I am glad he didn't. He was such a sad and miserable person, that death was an escape for him. His portrait would not be very nice, I am afraid, and wouldn't do justice to the real Snape.

I wish I could find when (I think it's Dumbledore) muses that the students are perhaps Sorted too soon... some of the things in "The Prince's Tale" really make me think of Snape in that light.Actually that was in the Prince’s Tale, and he says it to Snape. I have the quote here:


Snape looked sideways at Dumbledore’s crooked-nosed profile. “Karkaroff intends to flee if the Mark burns.”
“Does he?” said Dumbledore softly, as Fleur Delacour and Roger Davies came giggling in from the grounds. “And are you tempted to join him?”
“No.” Said Snape, his black eyes on Fleur’s and Roger’s
retreating figures. “I am not such a coward.”
“No.” Agreed Dumbledore. “You are a braver man by far than Igor Karkaroff. You know, sometimes I think we Sort too soon.”
He walked away, leaving Snape looking stricken…


It was clearly, in my opinion, meant to mean that Dumbledore believed Snape to be worthy of Gryffindor house.

Im still having to remind myself that Snape was in the end a good person, if not somewhat 'misguided' in his youth!
Ive been thinking bad things about him for years!!

Also, for those with the US edition, to read the paragraph where the black eyes meet the green eyes and Snape is no more, and then to see the illustration that is on the first page of "The Prince's Tale," I also found that very moving. While the event in and of itself wasn't surprising (moving is definitely the word that describes my reaction), seeing that illustration of the awkward child Snape just broke my heart.

.

So glad you brought that up. I thought of that too - when I was reading it I KNEW I had been right about Snape/Lily when he said Look at Me and then it said the part about Green eyes meeting black -- the you immediately see the illustration of Snape on a playground with a little girl with lighter -red hair. I started bawling like a baby. I LOVE that little picture. I think it's fantastic and that's when I knew my belief he'd been inlove with Lily was right. Soo well written.

I also love in Princes Tale when Lily asks Snape if it makes a difference - her being Muggleborn and I love how JK rights that he looks at her face, her hair and then answers, "No." You can just SEE Snape drinking in how much he loves her before he answers the question. Freaking gorgeous.

And I'm a little worried about how they're going to do this in the film as well. There was no Pensieve in the Occlumency scene in OoP. AND I remember being in the theatre thinking maybe I was WRONG about Lily/Snape b/c they cut the part where she defends him in his worst memory. So I remember freaking out for a week before the book came out. LOL!

But Rickman is the PERFECT actor to get snapes' many layers across. When he's crying reading Lily's letter to Sirius as an adult Sanpe - that's going to be fabulous to see.

Actually that was in the Prince’s Tale, and he says it to Snape. I have the quote here:




It was clearly, in my opinion, meant to mean that Dumbledore believed Snape to be worthy of Gryffindor house.


Absolutely. And that might have completely changed his life.

I tink Snape is the kind of character that appeals to those of us with a bit of an edge, a darker side, if you will. He not going to appeal to everyone. But that's fine with me. His capacity of love is as great as his capacity for hate. Not saying it's right or wrong - it just is. And I love it.

That’s a really nice way of looking at it. It does make a lot of sense that way.

Why, thank you. While I can't say I like Snape, he's one of my favorite characters, mainly because he's soooo complicated. That's why I think his death has to have been equally complex, although on the surface it appears so mundane and measely. It bears closer inspection, just like he does. With him, nothing is as it seems, and I feel JKR intended us to view his death the same way.

It appears he died ignobly and pointlessly but really he died with courage and serving a purpose. He lived a lie but remained true. He hated Harry while living and dying for him. He was mean to everybody, but sacrificed everything.

Nothing was ever readily apparent with Snape. His death is likewise. The first image we have of it only scratches the surface.

Absolutely. And that might have completely changed his life.

I tink Snape is the kind of character that appeals to those of us with a bit of an edge, a darker side, if you will. He not going to appeal to everyone. But that's fine with me. His capacity of love is as great as his capacity for hate. Not saying it's right or wrong - it just is. And I love it.

Nicely put. I don’t really consider myself any extra edgy, but I do really love Snape and I think I love him so much because he’s such a treasure of a character. So deep, so wonderfully developed. And he has a heart underneath his big nose and all of that greasy hair! Perfect.

Why, thank you. While I can't say I like Snape, he's one of my favorite characters, mainly because he's soooo complicated. That's why I think his death has to have been equally complex, although on the surface it appears so mundane and measely. It bears closer inspection, just like he does. With him, nothing is as it seems, and I feel JKR intended us to view his death the same way.

It appears he died ignobly and pointlessly but really he died with courage and serving a purpose. He lived a lie but remained true. He hated Harry while living and dying for him. He was mean to everybody, but sacrificed everything.

Nothing was ever readily apparent with Snape. His death is likewise. The first image we have of it only scratches the surface.

I definitely agree.

I think the main thing he feared was that he would die before he could pass along the crucial information he had for Harry. And I don't see him as victim to Voldemort's wrath, more like to Voldemort's indifference.

But I like your point about everyone fearing death but Harry. And I do think Snape probably feared the act of dying (who doesn't?) just not necessarily the fact of being dead. I imagine he sees death as a relief at this point.

I also think he would have preferred a different place and method for dying (I'm sure he HATED dying in the Shrieking Shack), but he wasn't going to bother defending himself. What's the use? If Voldemort wins, Snape's sacrifices have been in vain. If Harry wins, it'll be by dying (or so Snape has been led to believe), in which case Snape's whole purpose has been in vain. It's a lose-lose situation. Why fight it? Wouldn't he rather die now than stick around to see the light in Lily's (Harry's) eyes go out forever?

Really, that's how I interpreted that whole bit, because otherwise it doesn't make sense for a wizard of Snape's talent to not defend himself or escape.

Ok, so "wrath" was a bad word...heh...

I guess I should make my meaning a little clearer: Snape was afraid he'd die because of Voldemort when he was in the shack, hence not be able to give Harry the message, and that's why he was so eager to get away. Also because he was simply afraid of death.

I think I also put more faith on the fact that the only way he could have given Harry the information was through the memories. I completely understand why JKR did what she did for Snape's death scene. It's more logical, and it makes Harry more receptive to hearing what Snape had to say.

I know that some people have wondered why Snape didn't leave a portrait with his death. I am glad he didn't. He was such a sad and miserable person, that death was an escape for him. His portrait would not be very nice, I am afraid, and wouldn't do justice to the real Snape.

I think a portrait would be nice because it's a way of remembering him by. Besides Albus' middle name. And I don't think that Snape would have wanted his true side revealed at all if he survived, or if he was going to have a portrait.

I think his memory was enough. I think with him admitting he loved Harry always was enough said. His death and that lasting bit was more than enough for me.

Do you believe it was necessary?
I don't think it would've made sense for Voldy to spare his life when Voldy thought there was power to be gained...



Did you see it coming?

Not from Voldy..but I thought he would...cus in HBP what Harry says...


What did you think about how he died?
At first I was all happy then I realized he was good after all....I always tired to deny that there was a chance tht he was good..I was very mixed about him..cus what happend in HBP...when Dumbledore was about to that..

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?
I am in the middle about it..I never liked Snape..he was to mean to everyone , but the fact is he did safe Harry..I don't think though his death really bothered me..it seemed right for the story..and I never[like I said] liked Snape...:hmm:

I wasn't really shocked by his death as much as the way he was killed. It saddens me but at least Harry was there and was able to find out the truth.

:upset:

was my first reaction…



By the way, did anyone else note the irony of the greatest Slytherin in the story, dying by a snake?



it was very fitting I agree!
:upset:
I am still having trouble getting over this particular death. For all the people who said Harry couldn't die because how could JK write a story about a boy who lived a tragic childhood with his parents dead and an awful uncle and cousin and live in a broom closet, etc, who then grows up to die! Well I felt the same about Snape…*he really was a tragic character. I understand why he had to die, but ugh it was tough! I always believed he was good at heart, just totally misunderstood…*but his memory and his death were really awful… wanting to look one last time at the eyes of his one great love!
it is going to be awhile before I am okay with this.
of course the epilogue doesnt help and i started crying all over again when Harry talks to Ablus Severus!

What do people think of the idea that if Snape had not been in Slytherin, he might not have followed the path of the other Death Eaters and might have ended up being with Lily? It is again, our choices… as a wise man once said!

I think that although it wasn't a great way for Snivellus to go.. it was neccessary that Jo kill him via Nagini biting him.. if she had killed him off by even Voldemort using the Avada Kedavra curse he would have died instantly and thus couldn't have passed on his memories to Harry which turned out to be very important. At first I thought that he should die heroically perhaps to save Harry so Harry could see that he was good, but it really shows exactly how Voldemort operates in that he doesn't care who he runs down in his quest for absolute power. I don't find it logical that Voldemort would've killed Snape with Nagini if he couldve just killed him with a flick of his wand, unless he figured that his wand wouldn't obey him because it would recognize Severus as its true owner and not kill him (which we later learned was not the case)

and sorry yeah I call him Snivellus still cuz I don't think his love for Lily outweighed his hatred for James and in turn Harry.. I suppose I'm just Sirius Black's man through and through.

Yes, but is there a good way for Severus to go?

I didn't like the way Snape died; undignified. Not even being able to defend himself and thinking he had let DD down by not getting the info to Harry. Until Harry showed himself, Snape must have been fighting not only the physical pain, but the emotional pain of not getting his job done.

Before reading the book, I thought Snape would die after Voldy's downfall, if Voldemort did die, but I never expected Snape to die so suddenly, so it really shocked me. I feel sorry for Snape now, he has been misunderstood, and when he found out, it was too late to apologise to him for hating him and tell him how wrong they were.

I didn't like the way Snape died; undignified. Not even being able to defend himself and thinking he had let DD down by not getting the info to Harry. Until Harry showed himself, Snape must have been fighting not only the physical pain, but the emotional pain of not getting his job done.
But he died knowing he had finished his job.

Yes, and he got to see Lily's eyes one more time.
All the talk about the portrait in earlier posts got me to thinking; does the headmaster have the portrait, or does the castle? If it's the castle, it may not have put up Sev's because it didn't like what was happening during his tenure. After we find out about him, Harry telling everyone what he did, maybe the castle changed its mind and there is, right now, a portrait of Severus in the headmasters office. Like the sorting hat, maybe the castle had made its decision too soon?

Do you believe it was necessary?

In a way, yes it was.

Did you see it coming?

I didn't see him being killed by Nagini, I thought that voldermort would have found out about his betrayal and kill him himself

What did you think about how he died?

It was a pretty sad way to die, I felt that it could have been a bit more dramatic

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?

Sad, he was a complex character and felt that his end left a lot more questions unanswered. I'd like to think that he was re-united with Lily someway and that James, Remus and Sirius forgave him

It was a big surprise for me. I was expecting, at some point, that Harry and Snape would have some kind of conversation or something, but at least Snape was wise enough to give Harry the memory before he died.

I think that Harry pretty much had to see everything in the pensieve, becuase I don't think he would've believed anything Snape said to him. He did, after all, see Snape kill Dumbledore.

tremonsia, so many people think that the two of them could have sat and had this conversation; come on! Those two never had a civilised conversation. The idea that could have happened is laughable. I thought that Harry, seeing everything in the pensieve was perfect; he got to witness Snapes love for Lily, how he blew it and then spent the rest of his life trying to make up for it. With no one to interfer and make points or ask questions. I love the idea of the pensieve. The memories Snape shared were great...andn heartbreaking.

I wasn't surprised by anything regarding Snape in this book. I always believed he had an obsessive love for Lily Evans, and I suspected he was who Petunia referred to when she talked about the horrid boy Lily used to bring 'round.

His death scene was a spectacular study in irony, I thought. Here is a man who spent his life shielding himself from others and now he's lying on the ground while the heart that beats for Lily pumps his lifeblood all over the floor, and his memories, which all involve Lily, are literally seeping out of him, as well. That a man so self-contained is ultimately emptied out and revealed is a masterstroke, IMO.

The many ironies of this scene are perfectly in keeping with the paradoxical--and tragic--nature of the man himself: he is killed by an enemy who trusts but nevertheless discards him, which is ironic enough, but he dies without the satisfaction of revealing he has worked against Voldemort all these years; he dies believing he has been used by the one person he himself trusted, and does not know that his sacrifice will indeed succeed; he is killed by the symbol of his own House, and while Nagini doesn't consume him as she does her other victims, she may as well have because Slytherin and its Deatheater values are what consumed him when he made the worst decision of his life, the one that set him on this course and brought about the events that determined his fate and that of the entire Wizarding world...his seemingly wasted life and seemingly insignificant death have each ironically caused the signature events of the series--Voldemort's fall and rise and second fall, and the designation of Harry as The Chosen One.

As if all this weren't enough, Snape is lured to his death in the very place he was nearly lured to die decades before--for which he never forgave the Marauders nor by extention Harry, and where satisfaction was once again denied him in PoA--and he will now die ignominiously in their special meeting place, where they experienced comradery and he only experiences deceit, defeat, despair, and death. And as he passes, he looks into the eyes of his beloved...and they look back at him with hostility. Snape never, ever gets to win. He is without doubt the saddest, loneliest character in the whole series.

In fact, I think he may be one of the most tragic figures in all of literature. Ironically enough, that's a sort of triumph in itself....

COMPLETELY AGREED!!! Except for one little thing: Severus did not look at Harry's eyes and find hatred still boiling. Rowling describes the scene in that Severus was frightened out of his mind of Voldemort during the scene and of not getting Harry the info (note: Severus didn't know Nagini had to be destroyed, and I think we can guess there were protections on Nagini such as were on the ring that would have severely hurt Severus like Dumbledore), and after Voldemort left and Harry sees the man he hates lying on the ground trying to stop his bleeding, Harry feels this strange need to go over to him. He doesn't understand why he feels the need to see him and to be seen as well, but he pulls off the cloak anyway and that's when Severus grabs him and the memories start flooding out. He urges Harry to take it, and Hermione comes over in shock with a flask for Harry. Both Harry and Hermione are not looking at Severus with hatred but rather in shock that he is dying before them, and especially in such a way as he does.

Rowling says Harry feels compelled because of the nature of the death, and you get this feeling that Harry did not think Severus deserved to die like that. He feels it was horrible and I imagine the look on Harry's face during the whole thing is basically disbelief and pity. The fact that he felt that for Severus means Severus looked into eyes that for the first time did not have hatred burning in them, but rather a bit of compassion and sadness.

I mean, looking at Harry all those years was like looking at the eyes of Lily glaring back at him for what he caused. For the first time, Harry finally looked at Severus without the hatred.

I think Rowling messed herself up with Snape unknowingly in that because she didn't pen a scene with his portrait after the battle, and because she didn't include a scene which celebrates Snape in some way like a funeral or Order of Merlin, First Class award, I feel she put the character into a position for many people to think is a good person, a hero as he's being called, yet Rowling thinks the complete opposite. Yes, he is immensely brave, she said, but in her eyes he is not a hero because he is a spiteful bully who never would have helped Harry if Lily had not been involved.

Well, again, in her efforts to not have the readers celebrating Severus and simply backburnering the character because he was dead and that was that, she inadvertently caused thousands of people to think Severus thought better of Harry in the end when Rowling actually intended for us to find Severus quite disgusting for his pig-headedness towards Harry. By showing us that Harry thought better of Severus, but not allowing us to know what Severus truly thought of Harry, she caused everyone to think he's a hero. But I guess we shouldn't think of him that way.

That's why I think she messed up, because if she'd included a portrait scene where Harry sees Severus but only finds him glowering at him still and cold and distant, then we would know better. I think what would have been best is this:

Harry heads towards the door only to see a small new frame to the left where Snape is glowering back at him. Harry looks at Snape in the frame and not knowing what else to do, simply thanks him. Severus responds coldly with, "Thank your mother, Potter, I did everything for her." Harry looks at Snape who looks back with continued disdain, then responds with, "Well, either way, I'm thanking you." Severus folds his arms and nods curtly. Knowing things are not different between them in the slightest, Harry says, "Goodbye, Professor" and walks out.

See, their characters are not changed by this exchange as Severus still despises Harry and Harry continues to wonder what lodged itself up Snape's butt. The only difference is Harry, having dealt with Kreacher (who reminds me a lot of Snape) chooses to simply accept that Severus is a royal pain but no longer chooses to fight him and encourage the behavior. Being nice to Kreacher worked, didn't it? For so long Harry didn't understand what he did to deserve the treatment he received from Snape, but Harry understands it pretty well now. Therefore, instead of trying to convince Snape he's being unreasonable, etc., Harry is mature enough to ignore him and treat Snape better. Again, it's the big difference between Snape and Harry; Harry catches something thrown at him and puts it down after examining it, whereas Severus catches what is thrown at him and hurls it back at whoever threw it.

I mentioned in a different thread, I think, the idea that maybe a portrait came after the victory. We don't know how the portraits show up: is it the headmasters idea or the castles? If it's the headmasters idea, I don't see Snape wanting a portrait of himself; he never wanted to replace DD, so he wouldn't see himself worthy. It it's the castle, well, we know the other portraits know he was working for the right side, but the castle as a whole? I'm not sure.
I think the "reconciliation" (for lack of a better word) took place during the duel with Harry telling LV, and everyone else, what Snape had done. Snape was vinidicated in front of everyone, and it came from Harry Potter no less!

For plot reasons, Snape could not be killed outright by the Avada Kedavra. That way there would be no room to fit in Harry getting Snape's memories. Also, I think Voldemort was hesitant about using the Elder Wand on Snape. Also, he did not give Snape the inside-out "honour" of being killed by his own hand. He gave him a pitiful death. Snape realised what was coming: he was not naive. He kept trying to get away, he knew the end was near and he needed to communicate everything he had been told to tell to Harry. I also think that dying this way reflects the extreme degree of danger of the work Snape was doing. To be close to Voldemort is to be in grave peril, to be Voldemort's right-hand man and a spy as well is double the peril. Snape must have thought a million times over, it needed the smallest occurrence for his secret to be revealed and Voldemort to know his true colours.

It was also extremely unexpected: you think you are reading towards a thrilling encounter, when you get a terrible scene like this. I wasn't expecting Snape to die, not at all, and I was very shocked.

I think the "reconciliation" (for lack of a better word) took place during the duel with Harry telling LV, and everyone else, what Snape had done. Snape was vinidicated in front of everyone, and it came from Harry Potter no less!
Yes - and it's wonderful! :)
For plot reasons, Snape could not be killed outright by the Avada Kedavra. That way there would be no room to fit in Harry getting Snape's memories
Good point!
I also think that dying this way reflects the extreme degree of danger of the work Snape was doing. To be close to Voldemort is to be in grave peril, to be Voldemort's right-hand man and a spy as well is double the peril. Snape must have thought a million times over, it needed the smallest occurrence for his secret to be revealed and Voldemort to know his true colours.
Another good point - it brings home the fact that Voldemort really could have killed Snape at any time, but I think Voldemort actually valued him and saw his worth, since he knew Snape was a Half-Blood like himself. When Voldemort later mentions that Harry has let "better" people die for him, I think he is talking about Snape.

I think that for Severus to die in that way, is very fitting. That is the way it happens to spies. They don't die (I hesitate to use this word) heroically swinging their swords, wielding their wands, they are just murdered. Most of the time they go completely unsung. I'm glad Harry was able to acknowledge what he had done in front of so many people and to rub Voldy's nose in it:tu:.

I was at first disappointed that he didn't die by throwing himself in front of an AK for Harry or something else that appears more self-sacrificing. But the more I think about it the more appropriate it seems.

Wouldn't it have been terrible though if Harry didn't happen to be there when he was killed and wasn't able to extract his memories?

COMPLETELY AGREED!!! Except for one little thing: Severus did not look at Harry's eyes and find hatred still boiling. Rowling describes the scene in that Severus was frightened out of his mind of Voldemort during the scene and of not getting Harry the info (note: Severus didn't know Nagini had to be destroyed, and I think we can guess there were protections on Nagini such as were on the ring that would have severely hurt Severus like Dumbledore), and after Voldemort left and Harry sees the man he hates lying on the ground trying to stop his bleeding, Harry feels this strange need to go over to him. He doesn't understand why he feels the need to see him and to be seen as well, but he pulls off the cloak anyway and that's when Severus grabs him and the memories start flooding out. He urges Harry to take it, and Hermione comes over in shock with a flask for Harry. Both Harry and Hermione are not looking at Severus with hatred but rather in shock that he is dying before them, and especially in such a way as he does.

Rowling says Harry feels compelled because of the nature of the death, and you get this feeling that Harry did not think Severus deserved to die like that. He feels it was horrible and I imagine the look on Harry's face during the whole thing is basically disbelief and pity. The fact that he felt that for Severus means Severus looked into eyes that for the first time did not have hatred burning in them, but rather a bit of compassion and sadness.

I mean, looking at Harry all those years was like looking at the eyes of Lily glaring back at him for what he caused. For the first time, Harry finally looked at Severus without the hatred.

I think Rowling messed herself up with Snape unknowingly in that because she didn't pen a scene with his portrait after the battle, and because she didn't include a scene which celebrates Snape in some way like a funeral or Order of Merlin, First Class award, I feel she put the character into a position for many people to think is a good person, a hero as he's being called, yet Rowling thinks the complete opposite. Yes, he is immensely brave, she said, but in her eyes he is not a hero because he is a spiteful bully who never would have helped Harry if Lily had not been involved.

Well, again, in her efforts to not have the readers celebrating Severus and simply backburnering the character because he was dead and that was that, she inadvertently caused thousands of people to think Severus thought better of Harry in the end when Rowling actually intended for us to find Severus quite disgusting for his pig-headedness towards Harry. By showing us that Harry thought better of Severus, but not allowing us to know what Severus truly thought of Harry, she caused everyone to think he's a hero. But I guess we shouldn't think of him that way.

That's why I think she messed up, because if she'd included a portrait scene where Harry sees Severus but only finds him glowering at him still and cold and distant, then we would know better. I think what would have been best is this:

Harry heads towards the door only to see a small new frame to the left where Snape is glowering back at him. Harry looks at Snape in the frame and not knowing what else to do, simply thanks him. Severus responds coldly with, "Thank your mother, Potter, I did everything for her." Harry looks at Snape who looks back with continued disdain, then responds with, "Well, either way, I'm thanking you." Severus folds his arms and nods curtly. Knowing things are not different between them in the slightest, Harry says, "Goodbye, Professor" and walks out.

See, their characters are not changed by this exchange as Severus still despises Harry and Harry continues to wonder what lodged itself up Snape's butt. The only difference is Harry, having dealt with Kreacher (who reminds me a lot of Snape) chooses to simply accept that Severus is a royal pain but no longer chooses to fight him and encourage the behavior. Being nice to Kreacher worked, didn't it? For so long Harry didn't understand what he did to deserve the treatment he received from Snape, but Harry understands it pretty well now. Therefore, instead of trying to convince Snape he's being unreasonable, etc., Harry is mature enough to ignore him and treat Snape better. Again, it's the big difference between Snape and Harry; Harry catches something thrown at him and puts it down after examining it, whereas Severus catches what is thrown at him and hurls it back at whoever threw it.

Well put. I agree that Harry did not despise Snape when he was murdered. It's probably the shock of seeing Snape die in his face and the fact that Snape is not really his favorite person in the world - it's probably a confused mixture of wanting to mourn appropriately, but despising the person he should mourn, and also shock at the memories outpouring of him, and the brutality of the murder.

It's also possible that JKR may have penned an aftermath scene for Snape but took it out. Or she might not have written it at all because if she did not think Snape was a hero at all, she probably felt he didn't deserve any of these honors. Unfortunately, it was also a mistake since the last words we hear from Snape had no tone of contempt for Harry and so we are led to believe he is a hero. And, the memories that he gave Harry showed more of his best side; there was only one instance where he was really complaining about Harry, and the other instances showed his better side, so we are more prone to remember the good stuff. It seems like JKR stressed more on his good side than on his hatred for Harry. Though the rest of the series repeats over and over again his dislike for Harry, the memories seem to disprove it. And those memories are more compelling than his real actions because we now understand why he acted the way he did.

Maybe if JKR balanced his both sides more, we'd probably understand his true sentiments toward Harry...

Despite what JKR says though, I'd like to see him as a hero. :p I think he is mainly a product of his environment and not being loved all his life just made him bitter. Also, it could just be a facade to protect himself and everyone around him. I'm sure it's the coldness in his personality that makes him such a good Occlumens. A bully can change - and I'm pretty sure Snape changed. He just didn't change his image for others, and I see no reason why he should have.

Well put. I agree that Harry did not despise Snape when he was murdered. It's probably the shock of seeing Snape die in his face and the fact that Snape is not really his favorite person in the world - it's probably a confused mixture of wanting to mourn appropriately, but despising the person he should mourn, and also shock at the memories outpouring of him, and the brutality of the murder.

I agree. We aren't told that the looks Harry gives Severus are filled with hatred. Harry says a couple times that he doesn't know what to feel in terms of Severus' death- and it's understandable, because at that point he believes that Severus is a loyal Death Eater. The thing that sets Harry apart from Voldemort is his ability to love, and his ability to feel empathy for others; which is what compells him towards Severus' body once Voldemort leaves. He may feel hatred for the man, but that doesn't mean he can't feel compassion for him. Harry probably felt a lot of shock seeing Severus die in front of him; and that's to be expected, because the people who have been killed in front of him have all been killed with the AK curse- and Severus' death is the most gruesome murder he's ever witnessed. And Harry probably feels that nobody deserves to be killed that way... even if that person is Severus Snape.

Well, again, in her efforts to not have the readers celebrating Severus and simply backburnering the character because he was dead and that was that, she inadvertently caused thousands of people to think Severus thought better of Harry in the end when Rowling actually intended for us to find Severus quite disgusting for his pig-headedness towards Harry

Unfortunately, it was also a mistake since the last words we hear from Snape had no tone of contempt for Harry and so we are led to believe he is a hero

I agree. She's always made sure that readers know how horrible Severus is, and she kept telling us that we shouldn't like him too much (but he's my favorite character. Sorry Jo :p); but then she goes and seemingly makes it okay for us to like him and for us to see him as a hero because of the fact that during his last moments with Harry, he doesn't exude that hatred for him that was always present in the past. If she really wanted readers to see him as a horrible person who isn't worthy of being called a hero, she would have been better off putting as many cutting remarks from Severus as she could into the scene, or at least telling us that when Harry looked into his eyes those few times all he saw was hatred looking back at him.

But she doesn't do that.

In Severus' last moments, she seemingly wipes the slate clean and allows for a fresh start between the two of them. In those moments, Severus lets go of his hatred for the boy, which was the dividing factor between them; and Harry finally seems to start to lose his hatred for the man, which is pretty much completely gone once he sees all of Severus' memories in the Pensieve. She pretty much made it impossible for readers not to consider Severus a hero- especially when this is said in the epilogue, "Albus Severus, you were named for two headmasters of Hogwarts. One was a Slytherin and he was probably the bravest man I ever knew."

If she wanted us to read Deathly Hallows and still come out finding Severus unworthy of being called a hero, then she should have refrained from having Harry say, in a round-about way, that he was a hero. She could have let us know that Harry accepted the fact that Severus was on Albus' side and not Voldemorts- which she did by having Harry rub it in Voldemort's face before he killed him- and then left it at that; after all, just because Harry accepted the fact that Severus was on his side, doesn't mean Harry found him worthy of being considered a hero.

After reading the Half-Blood Prince I didn't know what to think of Snape. I always thought that Harry treated Snape a tad unfairly and likewise Snape to Harry. However after Snape (apparently) threw caution to the wind and killed Dumbledore I was absolutely overwhelmed. I hated him for what he'd done, but at the same time had to believe that it had all been part of the plan...if only to keep Dumbledore's memory intact. So i let my mind rest, no point over thinking it, and decided to wait and see what Rowling had up her sleeve.

And did she ever have something up her sleeve!! It was Snape's death and memories that made the tears flow, not the battle, not Harry sacrificing himself. No. It was Snape, the most pitiful and intriguing character in the whole series if you ask me. (And i pray that they do it justice in the movies)

IMO, Snape is one of the most tragic characters i have ever read of. He loved Lily, who only ever saw him as a friend. He insulted her, now she wouldn't give him the time of day. He had to watch as she gravitated to his most hated enemy, James Potter. He had to watch her marry him. Had the guilt of her death on his shoulders, something he would never let himself forget. Then he had to see her son. Lily's eyes in the face of the person he hated the most. And he had pledged to protect him, the son of James...but also, and most importantly, of Lily.

I think Rowling is right to say he isn't really a hero. To me heroes are people who do selfless things - for example Harry sacrificing himself for his friends and to help them defeat Voldemort, that is heroic. But Snape never did anything for anyone but Lily, even after she had died. He never thought of anyone but her. He only protected Harry because he was Lily's son, there was never any feeling (or much feeling) for the boy, only an intense love for his mother. However, despite all this, there is no denying he was brave and couragous and facsinating and if not exactly a hero, at least, as Harry rightly said, "the bravest person I ever knew."

I think Rowling created a tragic master piece with Snape. And i would love to read the whole story again but this time from Snape's perspective, with his thoughts and commentary, starting from that small, awkward boy of 9 or so.

As with Star Wars and the story turning from Luke's into Darth Vader's, I think we see some of that here with Harry Potter. All this time the most important story has been Harry's, but here we catch a glimps of something larger that was going on the whole time, something that involved a tormented man dealing with his guilt and love and trying desperately to redeem himself.

It was also extremely unexpected: you think you are reading towards a thrilling encounter, when you get a terrible scene like this. I wasn't expecting Snape to die, not at all, and I was very shocked.

It truly was unexpected and I let out a gasp on the bus while reading. I thought Snape was a donkey's backside from the beginning. But I also had faith that he was ultimately loyal to DD. It would have been one thing for Voldie to discover Snape's deception, not that it would have made it any more acceptible. But it was out of pure greed, paranoia and all the other things that drove Voldemort. It was so shocking, that I had to go back and made sure I read it correctly

I agree with many saying that it was necessary that Snape had to die- however, realistically, couldn't he have fought off /fled away?

He's main concern was to find Potter and tell him everything- and he didn't know that Potter was secretly watching him and LV.
So wouldn't his main concern be running away (apparate maybe? does shrieking shck count as Hogwarts Ground?) , or at least staying alive?

If he let nagini bite him or whatever, the odds are he's going to die w/o ever telling Potter the truth. And we know Snape was a very capable wizard. He probably couldn't have fought off LV of course, but could have fled, no?

What was he THINKING??

(some said that he WANTED to die, from the moment when Lily died- "I wish I were dead" , and therefore did not bother fighting off nagini. But wasn't his main concern at that moment telling Potter the truth before he dies?)

For me, the manner of Snapes death really bothered me.

I don't think Voldermort knew he had betrayed him all thoes years. I truely feel that Voldermorts only concern was that the Elder Wand worked properly for him when he faced Harry. You can see Voldermort making a "lame" apology to Snape before he kills hims. Clearly he didn't care at all, but he does say that Snapes death is regreatable after he had been so loyal.

So I don't believe the manner of death is payment for any form of betrayal in Voldermorts eye.

Which is what makes it so upseting. If he really did want to just kill him to ensure that he was the rightful owner of the Wand - he could have AK him nice and quick (and painless according to ones who have passed on). But instead, he kills who he believes to be his most loyal servent painfully. I would pick AK over Nagini any day.

I understand the need of Snape to die somewhat slowly - major Plot point there - but in my mind it really makes you completely aware of just how far gone Voldermort really is. Just how evil and cold he really is.

I also feel that given how frightened he was for Nagini's safety, it really seems far fetched to me that he would use her when his wand was right in his hand. What if Snape fought back and possibly injured her? Killed her? That was a big risk. I loved the book and thought JK didn't a smashing job ... but if anything was inconsistent or "out of character" just to support a plot point ... Snape's manner of death was it.

Still choked me up ... Snape asking to look into Harry's (really Lily's) eyes as he died ... powerful!

I also feel that given how frightened he was for Nagini's safety, it really seems far fetched to me that he would use her when his wand was right in his hand. What if Snape fought back and possibly injured her? Killed her? That was a big risk. I loved the book and thought JK didn't a smashing job ... but if anything was inconsistent or "out of character" just to support a plot point ... Snape's manner of death was it.

A very good point. It seems a little out of LV's character to do that. JK went a little far fetched there..

I knew that Snape would die. He has to die. He has no other reason to live; he has fulfilled his role as a spy already. It sounds pathetic but that's how it is.

I didn't expect he would go the way he did, though. I think JRK would not have it otherwise, there has to be a way to give Harry the slivers of memory. There was no other instance in the bok where it could be possible.

I am still mourning about losing him. He was one complicated character who played his part well.

I wasn't surprised by anything regarding Snape in this book. I always believed he had an obsessive love for Lily Evans, and I suspected he was who Petunia referred to when she talked about the horrid boy Lily used to bring 'round.

His death scene was a spectacular study in irony, I thought. Here is a man who spent his life shielding himself from others and now he's lying on the ground while the heart that beats for Lily pumps his lifeblood all over the floor, and his memories, which all involve Lily, are literally seeping out of him, as well. That a man so self-contained is ultimately emptied out and revealed is a masterstroke, IMO.

The many ironies of this scene are perfectly in keeping with the paradoxical--and tragic--nature of the man himself: he is killed by an enemy who trusts but nevertheless discards him, which is ironic enough, but he dies without the satisfaction of revealing he has worked against Voldemort all these years; he dies believing he has been used by the one person he himself trusted, and does not know that his sacrifice will indeed succeed; he is killed by the symbol of his own House, and while Nagini doesn't consume him as she does her other victims, she may as well have because Slytherin and its Deatheater values are what consumed him when he made the worst decision of his life, the one that set him on this course and brought about the events that determined his fate and that of the entire Wizarding world...his seemingly wasted life and seemingly insignificant death have each ironically caused the signature events of the series--Voldemort's fall and rise and second fall, and the designation of Harry as The Chosen One.

As if all this weren't enough, Snape is lured to his death in the very place he was nearly lured to die decades before--for which he never forgave the Marauders nor by extention Harry, and where satisfaction was once again denied him in PoA--and he will now die ignominiously in their special meeting place, where they experienced comradery and he only experiences deceit, defeat, despair, and death. And as he passes, he looks into the eyes of his beloved...and they look back at him with hostility. Snape never, ever gets to win. He is without doubt the saddest, loneliest character in the whole series.

In fact, I think he may be one of the most tragic figures in all of literature. Ironically enough, that's a sort of triumph in itself....

Verry well pointed NutmegNevis. He is for shure the saddest character and for one of the best considering all the mixed feelings that I had towards him in all the books.

I think using Nagini as the murder weapon was Voldemort's way of honoring Snape as a Death Eater. Like the way noblemen were executed by beheading instead of hanging.

As to why Snape didn't run...it happened very quickly, when Snape was concentrating on how to get to Harry. Maybe his mind just didn't change gears fast enough. Or perhaps he just couldn't think of a safe place to run TO.

I had not even thought about the signifigance of Snape dying in the SS. Yes! That is very very interesting. The one place we know that he almost met death before.

And I also agree that Snape is one of the most tragic figures in litterature. Dumbledore says it .... he hadto keep Snapes "best" a secert. Snape taught us all about what the power of love does. Makes you wonder if Dumbledores constant talking to Harry about the power of love was really setting him up, all of us, for the real bonds of love that made Snape sacrifice his life for Harry too ....

I think using Nagini as the murder weapon was Voldemort's way of honoring Snape as a Death Eater. Like the way noblemen were executed by beheading instead of hanging.

As to why Snape didn't run...it happened very quickly, when Snape was concentrating on how to get to Harry. Maybe his mind just didn't change gears fast enough. Or perhaps he just couldn't think of a safe place to run TO.
Running would have blown all cover, also.

i just dont understand why Snape dont fight, he will died, so why he stay there and dont do nothing. he was a great wizzard, so why?
and i will like more if snape had have told harry all the true, and see what will happen. but....
but ya he have to died, all had died (Lilian, Lupin, James, Sirius even pedro) he need to died too.

I don't think running would have blown his cover ... the Malfoys ran from LD when he was firing off AK everywhere ... it's saving yourself. I am not sure why he didn't fight back ...

I figured, like Wormtail, that he'd be out of the picture (if not dead) for the final confrontation between Voldemort and Harry. My guess would have been that he lived but was despised by the Wizard community in Britain for killing Dumbledore, even after Harry and Dumbledore's portrait came to his defense.

I figured, like Wormtail, that he'd be out of the picture (if not dead) for the final confrontation between Voldemort and Harry. My guess would have been that he lived but was despised by the Wizard community in Britain for killing Dumbledore, even after Harry and Dumbledore's portrait came to his defense.

I think that all the wizards are a bit more understanding than that. Not only is it just Harry and Dumbledore, but I'm sure Ron and Hermione would have come to his defense - after all, those two were with Harry at the shrieking shack weren't they? (If not, at least Hermione) And I'm sure after Harry announced Snape's true loyalties to Voldemort, everyone might have rethought their opinions of Snape.

I don't think Snape would have run off unless he got Voldemort's permission to, so as to maintain his position in Voldemort's good favor and as a spy, and to minimize any more risks. Also, the death seemed sudden for Snape because Voldemort's wand waving almost seemed like a feint - Snape even thought he got a reprieve - until he saw that Nagini was going to be the actual killer, not Voldemort's wand.

The plan hinged on Voldemort believing till the end that Snape was for him. Any disloyalty would have blown the cover and jeopardized Harry. The Malfoys didn't matter. They could save themselves, but I think Voldemort knew they put their family above him. Snape couldn't appear to put anything before Voldemort.

One of the best deaths, gonna be soo good in the movie with the memory escaping from him. Thats all I could think of when it happened, how cool it will look.

I think that all the wizards are a bit more understanding than that.

I don't think Snape would have run off unless he got Voldemort's permission to, so as to maintain his position in Voldemort's good favor and as a spy, and to minimize any more risks.

You think hundreds or thousands would be "understanding" after reading Rita Skeeter?

My prediction was that Dumbledore put him in place to help Harry in the end - but Harry demands that he kill the snake, and then has to go into hiding so he's not there when Harry and Dumbledore meet.

There was something like this in the Babylon 5 story, where the Vorlon, Kosh is supposed to be with Sheridan at Za'ha'doom, but sacrifices himself early at Sheridan's request. Incidentally, he breaks off a piece of himself, to put it in Sheridan to help him anyway.

The plan hinged on Voldemort believing till the end that Snape was for him. Any disloyalty would have blown the cover and jeopardized Harry. The Malfoys didn't matter. They could save themselves, but I think Voldemort knew they put their family above him. Snape couldn't appear to put anything before Voldemort.

but NONE of that mattered when he was about to die- I mean, the whole point of tricking LV to think that Snape was on his side was to help Harry. But if Snape just dies then, then he wouldn't be able to (though he did b/c Harry was hiding nearby- but Snape didn't know this) tell Harry the truth.- meaning there's no point of acting like he's on LV's side.

I think the only explanation is that Snape just simply didn't have time to fight back/ run.

COMPLETELY AGREED!!! Except for one little thing: Severus did not look at Harry's eyes and find hatred still boiling.

I didn't say "hate," I said "hostility." There's a difference. I just don't think Harry could manage to look at Snape under any circumstances without a measure of hostility. He believes Snape betrayed the Order. He saw Snape kill DD. Snape revealed the prophecy to VM. Snape abused Harry for years. Snape is responsible for Harry's mixed emotions about James. Snape failed to teach Harry occlumency. And Harry is even a little jealous that DD appeared to trust Snape more than him. All this and more...the only experiences Harry has of Snape up 'til now are completely negative. He may feel shock and even pity as Snape lay dying but his innate hostility will also be present.

Also, you talk about JKR's mistake in allowing people to see Snape as a hero at the end. I think this was intentional. People who feel Snape was a disgusting (albeit tragic) character can acknowledge that he was incredibly daring and courageous and necessary but still a nasty piece of work. People who love Snape can comfort themselves that his actions--even if selfishly motivated--ultimately allowed Harry to vanquish VM and save the world, and that is redemption enough. Then there is the whole argument about whether Snape did or did not care for Harry, after all.

Because Snape has always been a lightning rod for controversy and ambiguity, in AND out of the books, I think it's brilliant that JKR has left his end that way, too!

I didn't say "hate," I said "hostility." There's a difference. I just don't think Harry could manage to look at Snape under any circumstances without a measure of hostility. He believes Snape betrayed the Order. He saw Snape kill DD. Snape revealed the prophecy to VM. Snape abused Harry for years. Snape is responsible for Harry's mixed emotions about James. Snape failed to teach Harry occlumency. And Harry is even a little jealous that DD appeared to trust Snape more than him. All this and more...the only experiences Harry has of Snape up 'til now are completely negative. He may feel shock and even pity as Snape lay dying but his innate hostility will also be present.

Also, you talk about JKR's mistake in allowing people to see Snape as a hero at the end. I think this was intentional. People who feel Snape was a disgusting (albeit tragic) character can acknowledge that he was incredibly daring and courageous and necessary but still a nasty piece of work. People who love Snape can comfort themselves that his actions--even if selfishly motivated--ultimately allowed Harry to vanquish VM and save the world, and that is redemption enough. Then there is the whole argument about whether Snape did or did not care for Harry, after all.

Because Snape has always been a lightning rod for controversy and ambiguity, in AND out of the books, I think it's brilliant that JKR has left his end that way, too!

yeh, i defintly see snape as a hero even tho jk doesn't

Do you believe it was necessary?
Yes. It's hard to imagine Snape in a peaceful world. He was the quintessential spy; what would he have done without a foe?

While I don't think Dumbledore foresaw it, he scammed Voldemort again--V believed that Snape had murdered Dumbledore and so controlled the Elder Wand. (I was glad that in the memories we saw Dumbledore suggest that killing him out of kindness would not split Snape's soul.)

Did you see it coming?
Yes, but not that way. It saddened me that he died in the Shack, the place where he would have died if Sirius had had his way, if James hadn't intervened.

What did you think about how he died?
I'd hoped he would die more heroically, saving Harry. I had also hoped (impossibly, given my earlier scenario) that he and Harry would be able to process their relationship and whatever revelations Harry had received about it. It would be interesting to know how Hary worked it all out in his mind.

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?
I'm sad that Snape died without knowing that Harry or anyone else would remember him well. I'm happy that Harry named a son for both Albus and Severus. I think they would both have liked that.

I was touched to notice how often in his conversation with Voldemort Snape was clearly trying to find a way to get to Harry, to protect him (which, I think, is why he left Hogwarts--McG and Flitwick didn't drive him off.)

I do see him as a hero; risking his life for years out of love for a dead woman is quite selfless. What did he stand to gain? Obviously, he couldn't get the girl. How many people would endanger themselves for 16 years out of loyalty to a woman who rejected them?

You think hundreds or thousands would be "understanding" after reading Rita Skeeter?

Rita Skeeter writing for Dumbledore or Snape? First of all, we don't know if she's going to rip apart Snape as she did for Dumbledore.

When I said the wizards would probably be understanding, I meant it for Snape. And they may still despise him for all the evil things he did, but that wouldn't mean that they would be undeniably unforgiving towards Snape anymore. Dumbledore had Elphias Doge to defend his image against Skeeter; Snape can have Dumbledore's portrait and Harry, and Hermione and Ron. Though they're only a few voices among many, I'm sure that eventually they can change people's minds. It took a year before Dumbledore and Harry changed the Ministry's minds about Voldemort's return; maybe something like that can happen again for Snape's image with the rest of the wizarding world...In addition, a whole bunch of wizards and students that were all present for the final battle know the truth about Snape.

Dead or alive, Snape could be hated by the wizarding community, but I think the wizarding community might be a bit more understanding once they know the truth, the entire story. And I think the truth is bound to come out, whether Snape wanted it to or not, since there were so many there who heard of Snape's true loyalties at the final battle.

yeh, i defintly see snape as a hero even tho jk doesn't

He definitely showed the utmost dedication to his cause, and his devotion to Lily's memory is both heartbreaking and strangely uplifting. I am a sucker for tragic heroes, so even though Snape is a basically beastly person I can't help but feel affection and great sorrow for him.

JKR might not see him as a hero but she surely must feel sorry for him or she wouldn't have left all this room for ambivalence. She would have spelled out very clearly that he's unworthy of anything except contempt and maybe pity. Instead, she leaves us room to either feel glad he got his just desserts or to grieve over this poor, brave, misunderstood creature.

I really like how she did this. It's so...sneaky. Just like Snape himself.

He definitely showed the utmost dedication to his cause, and his devotion to Lily's memory is both heartbreaking and strangely uplifting. I am a sucker for tragic heroes, so even though Snape is a basically beastly person I can't help but feel affection and great sorrow for him.

JKR might not see him as a hero but she surely must feel sorry for him or she wouldn't have left all this room for ambivalence. She would have spelled out very clearly that he's unworthy of anything except contempt and maybe pity. Instead, she leaves us room to either feel glad he got his just desserts or to grieve over this poor, brave, misunderstood creature.

I really like how she did this. It's so...sneaky. Just like Snape himself.


snapes chapter and death was the only part were i properly properly cried at, still think about it now! God i feel sorry for him! i'll marry him and wear green contacts

This thread is so that you may discuss your reaction to Severus Snape's death.

Do you believe it was necessary?
Yes it was. I don't think there could really be any other way.

Did you see it coming?
Honestly, no. I should have.

What did you think about how he died?
I think he died honorably. I'm sad to see that he was so hated in his last days by the very people he was trying to protect, but thus, I still think it was noble.

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?
I'm sad because it turns out he was a good man. He lived a tragic life, torn between two worlds. Snape is now one of my favorite characters. I'm sad that he died, but I think his life will be more appreciated in his death.

God i feel sorry for him! i'll marry him and wear green contacts

that's EXACTLY what i was thinking, right after prince's tale.

that's EXACTLY what i was thinking, right after prince's tale.

lol!:lol::love:
Do you like the HG/SS fanfic's?? there my fav lol

I love how Snape is one of those few truly complex characters of the book - he has so many shades of gray and is carefully drawn up by JKR. He has so much depth in this book, I feel horrible thinking that JKR brushed him off from giving him the title of "hero" just because he bullied others. Other people were bullies as well. When they were younger, they played pranks on each other. Sure Snape continued it to his adult life, but I doubt he bullied Slytherins, and his main target was Harry. Could you really blame him for despising someone who looks so much like the man who stole Lily away from him?
Yes, I could. Snape's attitude towards Harry simply because of his resemblance to James was one of Snape's biggest flaws. Even Dumbledore was surprised at Snape's attitude which helped lead to the failure of Harry's Occlumency lessons. Bullying Neville was also inforgivable and unjustifiable, and I give Snape absolutely no credit for favoring Slytherins while punishing Gryffindors.

lucky for me i have green eyes...but i really do feel sorry for him.
i thinkk about it everynight before bed, it just won't come out of head. He didn't deserve such a fate! it's so sad :upset;

Yes, I could. Snape's attitude towards Harry simply because of his resemblance to James was one of Snape's biggest flaws. Even Dumbledore was surprised at Snape's attitude which helped lead to the failure of Harry's Occlumency lessons. Bullying Neville was also inforgivable and unjustifiable, and I give Snape absolutely no credit for favoring Slytherins while punishing Gryffindors.

i didn't like the way Dumbledore kept reminding snape and shouting at him sayin you would have james and harry die so you can have what you want

lucky for me i have green eyes...but i really do feel sorry for him.
i thinkk about it everynight before bed, it just won't come out of head. He didn't deserve such a fate! it's so sad :upset;

omg totally agree! can't tell anyone i live with they'll just laugh at me! lol

I'm not. I'm glad Dumbledore put Snape in his place, he deserved it. He's the one who told Voldy about the Prophesy to begin with.

I'm not. I'm glad Dumbledore put Snape in his place, he deserved it. He's the one who told Voldy about the Prophesy to begin with.

awww thats cos he grew up that way, to follow voldy if he had just gone to gyfindors house! he would have married lily and had lots of little snapeys!

awww thats cos he grew up that way, to follow voldy if he had just gone to gyfindors house! he would have married lily and had lots of little snapeys!

also, at first, he had no idea that the prophecy was pointing at Lily's son!

I think it was necessary for Snape to die. I had held out for him to be evil (i'm glad i was wrong) and for one of the DA to finish him off. I didn't see it being Nangini that took him out. I was surprised that LV wanted him to be honest.
I cried, a lot, especially after Harry went to the Pensive and saw the memories.
Poor Snape...a real tragic hero.

also, at first, he had no idea that the prophecy was pointing at Lily's son!

yeh!! he had no idea! God bless his soul! lol

But for just one second let's imagine if Snape did go into Griffindor and married Lily. Lily Snape. Ewww...

But for just one second let's imagine if Snape did go into Griffindor and married Lily. Lily Snape. Ewww...

No no no!!!!! ..... That would be PERFECT!! awwghhhh what a perfect image! :love:

but NONE of that mattered when he was about to die- I mean, the whole point of tricking LV to think that Snape was on his side was to help Harry. But if Snape just dies then, then he wouldn't be able to (though he did b/c Harry was hiding nearby- but Snape didn't know this) tell Harry the truth.- meaning there's no point of acting like he's on LV's side.


I disagree. I don't think Snape believed himself to have a chance to kill Voldemort if they fought, and I imagine this was a correct assessment. So, if Snape fought back, he would die, and his mission would fail. Instead, he tried to talk his way out of the room so that he could complete his mission. He may have wanted to fight back, or even break cover by throwing his love for Lily in Voldemort's face, but he chose to stick with the spy shtick until the very end, and a good thing too, because against the odds, he was able to pass on the information Harry needed before he died.

zgirnius - your pic is very nice!!! lol

But for just one second let's imagine if Snape did go into Griffindor and married Lily. Lily Snape. Ewww...

Heh.

"Good morning, Headmaster. You remember my wife Lily, of course? And this is my son, Scimitar. He's beginning at Hogwarts this year, and I was wondering if it would be possible for him to rotate between Gryffindor and Slytherin?"

:cool:

But for just one second let's imagine if Snape did go into Griffindor and married Lily. Lily Snape. Ewww...

I actually, like I said before, keep finding myself disregarding the fact that Harry would not have been born and wishing to myself that they had been together. It’s so sad.

I disagree. I don't think Snape believed himself to have a chance to kill Voldemort if they fought, and I imagine this was a correct assessment. So, if Snape fought back, he would die, and his mission would fail. Instead, he tried to talk his way out of the room so that he could complete his mission. He may have wanted to fight back, or even break cover by throwing his love for Lily in Voldemort's face, but he chose to stick with the spy shtick until the very end, and a good thing too, because against the odds, he was able to pass on the information Harry needed before he died.

I doubt Snape’s intention was ever to kill Voldemort. He was in on Dumbledore’s plan the whole time, and Dumbledore knew it had to be Harry.

i hated the way snape died. whether you were in the snape is good or bad camp, snape deserved to go out in a blaze of glory. to be killed by LV by placing nagini over his head was just anticlimatic. i understand that he had to die slow to give harry a chance to retrieve the memory, but there are other ways he could have died.

i hated the way snape died. whether you were in the snape is good or bad camp, snape deserved to go out in a blaze of glory. to be killed by LV by placing nagini over his head was just anticlimatic. i understand that he had to die slow to give harry a chance to retrieve the memory, but there are other ways he could have died.

totally agree with you!! poor Snape, he's a hero in my eyes

Snape's attitude towards Harry simply because of his resemblance to James was one of Snape's biggest flaws.

He didn't only hate Harry because he looks like James. He hated him because he saw Harry as the reason that Lily was dead. To Snape, it seemed that his true love would still be around if it weren't for this mediocre, pompous boy. That contributes a lot more to his hatred then Harry's resemblance to James does.

He didn't only hate Harry because he looks like James. He hated him because he saw Harry as the reason that Lily was dead. To Snape, it seemed that his true love would still be around if it weren't for this mediocre, pompous boy. That contributes a lot more to his hatred then Harry's resemblance to James does.

There’s also the fact that he was the living symbol of Lily and James’ relationship; a constant reminder that Lily loved James instead of him.

*sigh* I've never understood the Snape worship...

No matter how you slice it, Snape was a bully towards Harry his entire time at Hogwart's and would have never risked anything for him if it weren't for Lily. Plain and simple. He fulfilled his purpose and I was glad we got to see a glimpse into his past, find out who the real Snape was, and understand to an extent what he went through. In no way would I ever call Snape a hero though.

There’s also the fact that he was the living symbol of Lily and James’ relationship; a constant reminder that Lily loved James instead of him.

could you imagin how horrible that must have been. And also little comments throughout the books such as slughorn. "(sumet like) Severus Harry's talent for poitions is amazing your a very good teacher, ...." SS - "He wasn't very good in my classes" HS -"he must have got it off his mother, she was an incredable witch!"

just little things like that must have crushed him!

it's sort of made snape if possible, deeper. We've always seen him as this horrible empty shell who doesn't love but jst hates and can be seen as untrustworthy, and dislikes harry becuase he was bullied by his father, but now we realised he can love and his life had rerolved around it!:love::love:

Do you believe it was necessary?

No, at least not unless Snape had done something to bring it on himself, or unless he was a battle casualty. I figured Snape was smart enough to stay out of the line of fire and let others be the casualties. It was indeed ironic that the thing that led to his demise at Voldemort's hands was actually the very thing that should have been perceived by Voldemort as serving his direct interests -- the killing of Dumbledore. What this episode (that is, killing Snape) did was prove just how cowardly and scum-like Voldemort truly was.

Did you see it coming?

I probably would not have, except for the fact that some a**hole posted a blatant spoiler about "Voldemort kills Snape" in the title of a posting at Amazon.com, where no one could miss it. Thus, when Voldemort summoned Snape, I knew something was likely to happen.

What I was anticipating, however, is that Voldemort would have tumbled to the fact that Snape was still playing Dumbledore's side of the game, and therefore execute Snape as punishment for being disloyal. I was completely not expecting Voldemort to take out Snape simply as a way of powering up the Elder Wand. That made it much more cold-blooded, because for all Voldemort knew Snape had been completely loyal. (Of course, to accuse Voldemort of being cold-blooded is kind of like accusing a lump of coal of being black. :whistle: )

What did you think about how he died?

Consistent with cowardly Voldemort. Had Voldemort attempted the Avada Kedavra curse against Snape, Snape would probably have been quick enough to defend so that it would not have worked. We had already seen that Snape was extremely gifted in anticipating and defending against spells that were about to be cast against him. The use of Nagini caught him totally by surprise. (And, of course, Voldemort was not happy with the quality of the wand's performance at that point, and therefore might not have trusted his ability to deliver a decisive blow against Snape with it.)

Of course, from a story standpoint, it was necessary that Snape be fatally wounded rather than killed instantaneously, so that Harry would have those final moments with him and obtain the memory. Accordingly, JKR had few options other than to have something like this course of events in order to allow for the exposition of Snape's history.

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?

It's hard not to be sad about it, now that all the facts are in. At the same time, it would be correct to note that Snape brought a lot of needless unhappiness on himself throughout the years covered by the books.

Snape himself might argue that he had to be spiteful of Harry in order to keep up appearances in his role as a double agent vis-a-vis Voldemort. I would not find this argument convincing, however, because until Goblet of Fire there was some doubt whether Voldemort would really return. It's far more plausible that Snape harbored resentment because of how James had treated him earlier.

Dumbledore correctly observes to Snape at one point that Snape tended to see in Harry only those negative qualities that he was expecting to see. In other words, Snape's ill esteem of Harry was kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

But even so, given the truths revealed in Snape's final memories, it was in fact sad for Snape to be killed so ruthlessly by Voldemort, and never live to see the triumph of his work on behalf of the Order, of Dumbledore, and of Harry (and by extension Lily). At Snape's death, he had no knowledge of how the evening would turn out.

Can we clarify why exactly Snape was continuing to act like he was on Voldemort's side? As in, why was it so important that Voldemort thought he had Snape?

Can we clarify why exactly Snape was continuing to act like he was on Voldemort's side? As in, why was it so important that Voldemort thought he had Snape?

cos he was (he thought) he was extreamly loyal and he had a good idea about what the order was up to and had been there from the beginnig and was pretty intellagent

I didn't see it coming at all.

But when i was reading about how the Elder Wand changed hands and what must have taken place before it could have a new master i thought of the night Snape killed Dumbledore on the roof and then it hit me, hard.

Voldemort must kill Snape to assume command of the wand.

Sad, i liked Snape i thought his character was unique.

After reading the Half-Blood Prince I didn't know what to think of Snape. I always thought that Harry treated Snape a tad unfairly and likewise Snape to Harry. However after Snape (apparently) threw caution to the wind and killed Dumbledore I was absolutely overwhelmed. I hated him for what he'd done, but at the same time had to believe that it had all been part of the plan...if only to keep Dumbledore's memory intact. So i let my mind rest, no point over thinking it, and decided to wait and see what Rowling had up her sleeve.

And did she ever have something up her sleeve!! It was Snape's death and memories that made the tears flow, not the battle, not Harry sacrificing himself. No. It was Snape, the most pitiful and intriguing character in the whole series if you ask me. (And i pray that they do it justice in the movies)

IMO, Snape is one of the most tragic characters i have ever read of. He loved Lily, who only ever saw him as a friend. He insulted her, now she wouldn't give him the time of day. He had to watch as she gravitated to his most hated enemy, James Potter. He had to watch her marry him. Had the guilt of her death on his shoulders, something he would never let himself forget. Then he had to see her son. Lily's eyes in the face of the person he hated the most. And he had pledged to protect him, the son of James...but also, and most importantly, of Lily.

I think Rowling is right to say he isn't really a hero. To me heroes are people who do selfless things - for example Harry sacrificing himself for his friends and to help them defeat Voldemort, that is heroic. But Snape never did anything for anyone but Lily, even after she had died. He never thought of anyone but her. He only protected Harry because he was Lily's son, there was never any feeling (or much feeling) for the boy, only an intense love for his mother. However, despite all this, there is no denying he was brave and couragous and facsinating and if not exactly a hero, at least, as Harry rightly said, "the bravest person I ever knew."

I think Rowling created a tragic master piece with Snape. And i would love to read the whole story again but this time from Snape's perspective, with his thoughts and commentary, starting from that small, awkward boy of 9 or so.

As with Star Wars and the story turning from Luke's into Darth Vader's, I think we see some of that here with Harry Potter. All this time the most important story has been Harry's, but here we catch a glimps of something larger that was going on the whole time, something that involved a tormented man dealing with his guilt and love and trying desperately to redeem himself.



Just wanted to give you a shout out for a great post. I notice by your age you're really young but this was a wonderful post that I completely agree with and very mature beyond your years. Keep reading! :tu:

To be honest, Snape was so horrible that i'm surprised Nagini didnt gag and curl up and die when she bit him. ;)

But I wonder what you guys thought about Snape encouraging Harry to take that stuff flooding out of his mouth and ears? What did it say for Snape to give Harry his memories of the past?

:)

that's EXACTLY what i was thinking, right after prince's tale.

LOL! I thought the same thing! Wish I'd been a student in his potions class - right after I'd graduated I'd pounce on him in no time flat!!!!!!!!!

:lol:

To be honest, Snape was so horrible that i'm surprised Nagini didnt gag and curl up and die when she bit him. ;)

But I wonder what you guys thought about Snape encouraging Harry to take that stuff flooding out of his mouth and ears? What did it say for Snape to give Harry his memories of the past?

:)

but thats what he needed to give to harry. so whether half dead or alive he would have done it

i didn't like the way Dumbledore kept reminding snape and shouting at him sayin you would have james and harry die so you can have what you want



omg totally agree! can't tell anyone i live with they'll just laugh at me! lol

ME TOO! I've been thinking about it every night before I go to bed too! And last night was terrible b/c I saw the man I've loved for two whole years who probably doesn't feel the same. I just couldn't get the Snape story out of my head. I'm very much the same - I'm quite a hard/unfriendly person around him. He's made me that way. If he had child with his current idiot girlfriend, I'd despise that child with all my heart. TOTALLY am waxing Snape!

ME TOO! I've been thinking about it every night before I go to bed too! And last night was terrible b/c I saw the man I've loved for two whole years who probably doesn't feel the same. I just couldn't get the Snape story out of my head. I'm very much the same - I'm quite a hard/unfriendly person around him. He's made me that way. If he had child with his current idiot girlfriend, I'd despise that child with all my heart. TOTALLY am waxing Snape!

as a previous post suggested i would love to read them all again lookin from an angle from snapes POV, i would love jk to write a small book (size of philoshers stone) just about snape and his life!

Ive gotta say I had not seen that coming. I was more than positive of Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore but i have not excpected he would die. I was sure he would live, alone and greasy:p, but alive. I really don't think he was given justice in his death either. I was at least expecting some public defience towards Voldemort right before a, if at all, noble death. But killed by a snake in the Shrieking Shake? Poor sexy Snape.:no:

Ive gotta say I had not seen that coming. I was more than positive of Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore but i have not excpected he would die. I was sure he would live, alone and greasy:p, but alive. I really don't think he was given justice in his death either. I was at least expecting some public defience towards Voldemort right before a, if at all, noble death. But killed by a snake in the Shrieking Shake? Poor sexy Snape.:no:

its just not fair!!!:upset:o well he's in heaven now! with his love lily!:angel:

God i feel sorry for him! i'll marry him and wear green contacts

LOL! And I mean I literally laughed out loud when I read your remark.

I happen to have green eyes. But I doubt Snape could tolerate me because I have too many similarities to Harry. I have relatives who are Evanses, my name is the feminine form of James, I even have a scar on my forehead! LOL

No matter. I couldn't tolerate Snape either unless he did something about that hair. Greasy strings are just not my thing.

I agreew, that was such a punk way for Snape to die. Bitten by Nagini. Not even the decency of dying in battle.

*sigh*

I think this was done intentionally as a symbol of what Snape's life had been like. Always one step away, so close yet so far.

And it is also a symbol of Voldemort's cold blood, how he could, without much hesitation, order the killing of one of his most faithfull servants, his right hand man, the one who had brought about the death of his great enemy Dumbledore (as far as Voldemort was aware of, anyway).

Snape's death was an unbelievably weak cop-out. Point blank.

She could not figure out a way for Snape to explain to Harry - face-to-face - what the truth was. So, she instead took the easy road and left it to memories. WEAK.

I was waiting pretty much the whole book to AT LONG LAST hear Snape's side of the story, and then boom, he's in the book for 3 seconds and gets murdered. All that waiting and waiting for.....nothing. I'll say this though - she left that for the very end because I think she knew if she put his death in the beginning of the book - about 90% of HP fans (the insane Snape loving ones like on this board) would have stopped reading it then and there early on.

And no, Snape is not my favorite character. I do not salivate over him. I was just excepting an epic ending that explained EVERYTHING and instead I got a letdown of a book. With questions still left unanswered......when I shouldn't have ANY whatsoever anymore.

Wanna read a GOOD book? Try HBP and Azkaban.

Can we clarify why exactly Snape was continuing to act like he was on Voldemort's side? As in, why was it so important that Voldemort thought he had Snape?

i think part of this was on DD's orders. the other reason is that he needed to get to harry. thats why he kept asking LV to let him go after the boy. LV was protecting the snake, the time to reveal all had come, he needed to find harry. thats why i think he was still playing the bad guy.

Yes, I could. Snape's attitude towards Harry simply because of his resemblance to James was one of Snape's biggest flaws. Even Dumbledore was surprised at Snape's attitude which helped lead to the failure of Harry's Occlumency lessons. Bullying Neville was also inforgivable and unjustifiable, and I give Snape absolutely no credit for favoring Slytherins while punishing Gryffindors.

He didn't only hate Harry because he looks like James. He hated him because he saw Harry as the reason that Lily was dead. To Snape, it seemed that his true love would still be around if it weren't for this mediocre, pompous boy. That contributes a lot more to his hatred then Harry's resemblance to James does.

I agree with Tatalp - yeah - there is more to his hatred towards Harry than just looks, but I can't blame him either for hating Harry so much. I think you got it right Daemon - Snape is flawed - he's human. And to think he was raised in such bad conditions at home, it's not surprising if certain negative thoughts rubbed off on him. It's wrong that he bullies, but for me, I can't blame everything on him. He's quite complex - there might be other reasons as to why he acts so meanly the way he does.


I doubt Snape’s intention was ever to kill Voldemort. He was in on Dumbledore’s plan the whole time, and Dumbledore knew it had to be Harry.

Yeah, I don't think he would kill Voldemort...that's why he tried to talk his way out of the shrieking shack...that's one thing Snape is really good at - he's good with words and making others believe him completely, and he's good with magic/spells/etc. But like Voldemort, I think he still can't fool Dumbledore.

Snape's death was an unbelievably weak cop-out. Point blank.

She could not figure out a way for Snape to explain to Harry - face-to-face - what the truth was. So, she instead took the easy road and left it to memories. WEAK.

I was waiting pretty much the whole book to AT LONG LAST hear Snape's side of the story, and then boom, he's in the book for 3 seconds and gets murdered. I felt like Voldemort in 'Goblet' when Harry got away - because I nearly screamed "NOOO!!!" as loud as he did. All that waiting and waiting for.....nothing. I'll say this though - she left that for the very end because I think she knew if she put his death in the beginning of the book - about 90% of HP fans (the insane Snape loving ones like on this board) would have stopped reading it then and there early on.

And no, Snape is not my favorite character. I do not salivate over him. I was just excepting an epic ending that explained EVERYTHING and instead I got a letdown of a book. With questions still left unanswered......when I shouldn't have ANY whatsoever anymore.

Wanna read a GOOD book? Try HBP and Azkaban.

I don't think it was a cop-out ending for Snape. True, it was really short - I did wish we saw more of Snape throughout the book. And maybe unsatisfying - but not a cop-out. I think it revealed more than we thought at first glance about Snape - look at the boards! We're on 30+pages! :tu: :D

It may seem weak at first, to use memories, but I think it is really the only way possible considering Harry and Snape's tumultuous relationship. Also, we get to see more of the good side of Snape, and learn about his history. It seems that in this book we learn a lot of histories - Dumbledore's...Snape's...and in HBP it was Voldemort... Anyways, it's through the memories we get to experience and learn about Snape better.

I've been told that when writing, it's always better to SHOW, not TELL. And I think through the memories, JKR accomplishes just that - and by showing it kind of makes reading a little more interactive because the reader has to think and digest the information their being given, rather than swallow up all the information. Dumbledore does a lot of telling and explaining. I'm grateful that I learned about Snape from the showing

I think JKR did an excellent job with the memories.... as it allowed Harry to actually see with his own eyes instead of just hearing it.

On Snape's death, I kinda saw it coming but didn't expect it to happen that way.

Another reason I can see for using memories: Harry might not believe him if he were simply being told by Snape. Viewing the memories offer proof.

I think Snape's manner of dying accomplished a few things, one being that not all those who do brave things die in open battle.

I was so disappointed that Snape couldn't have lived to have the chance to find love again. He never had real happiness in his life beyond Lily's friendship.

To be honest, Snape was so horrible that i'm surprised Nagini didnt gag and curl up and die when she bit him. ;)
:p

But I wonder what you guys thought about Snape encouraging Harry to take that stuff flooding out of his mouth and ears? What did it say for Snape to give Harry his memories of the past?
:)

To me it confirmed something I had suspected in HBP - that Snape had come to care about Harry as Harry, and not only as the son of Lily. Not the act of gioving the memories itself, but the memories he chose to give. If it had been all about business (completing his assigned mission) all he need have given were a couple of memoreis explaining why Dumbledore trusted him, and the memory with the information Harry needed. Harry got a LOT more than that.

:p



To me it confirmed something I had suspected in HBP - that Snape had come to care about Harry as Harry, and not only as the son of Lily. Not the act of gioving the memories itself, but the memories he chose to give. If it had been all about business (completing his assigned mission) all he need have given were a couple of memoreis explaining why Dumbledore trusted him, and the memory with the information Harry needed. Harry got a LOT more than that.

Exactly, Snape, a man who put emphasis on keeping feelings hidden and never wearing your heart on your sleeve, showed Harry some MAJORLY personal and private thoughts. Things like stealing the picture of Lily laughing and a piece of paper because it had her signature on it; Crying over her death and wishing he were dead too; his obvious crush on her as a child… the list goes on and on. Only a few memories of Lily had to be exposed to prove his point, but instead he exposed some very deep and private feelings that he didn’t have to expose; I probably wouldn’t have.

Do you believe it was necessary?
Whether it was necessary or not, I loved that Harry could stuff that in LV's face as another one of his biggest mistakes.

Did you see it coming?
Yes, I knew Snape would die

What did you think about how he died?
Everyone keeps saying " I wish he would've died in a nobler fashion" There was a point to everyone calling Snape cowardly throughout the books. I never saw him dying in the heat of battle, I figured he would be a sideline death. His hatred of James is what hindered the noble death, in my mind.

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still? I'm mad about it, I knew he would die, but the reasoning for it is what made me mad. His death was played out like just another casualty of war, when his death was actually a big turning point in the story for Harry.

I wasn't as shocked by Snape's death as I was by the Prince's Tale.

To me it confirmed something I had suspected in HBP - that Snape had come to care about Harry as Harry, and not only as the son of Lily. Not the act of gioving the memories itself, but the memories he chose to give. If it had been all about business (completing his assigned mission) all he need have given were a couple of memoreis explaining why Dumbledore trusted him, and the memory with the information Harry needed. Harry got a LOT more than that.

YESSSSSS!!!!! Precisely what I believe! :D

I don't think it was a cop-out ending for Snape. True, it was really short - I did wish we saw more of Snape throughout the book. And maybe unsatisfying - but not a cop-out. I think it revealed more than we thought at first glance about Snape - look at the boards! We're on 30+pages! :tu: :D

It may seem weak at first, to use memories, but I think it is really the only way possible considering Harry and Snape's tumultuous relationship. Also, we get to see more of the good side of Snape, and learn about his history. It seems that in this book we learn a lot of histories - Dumbledore's...Snape's...and in HBP it was Voldemort... Anyways, it's through the memories we get to experience and learn about Snape better.

I've been told that when writing, it's always better to SHOW, not TELL. And I think through the memories, JKR accomplishes just that - and by showing it kind of makes reading a little more interactive because the reader has to think and digest the information their being given, rather than swallow up all the information. Dumbledore does a lot of telling and explaining. I'm grateful that I learned about Snape from the showing
I agree that it was far more effective for Harry and therefore the reader, to see Snape's memories than for Harry and Snape to have a conversation. It was the only way to include a conversation between Snape and Dumbedore.

Wanna read a GOOD book? Try HBP and Azkaban.

Yup, HBP left no questions unanswered, that's for sure.

To be honest, I don't think that Snape is honestly dead.

Hear me out on this one before you judge, I'm not just saying this because I adore Severus, even though I do and always have.

I don't think he's dead because there was no new portrait in the Headmaster's office. Severus was headmaster for a year, so I believe that if he were honestly dead, there would be a portrait there.

Harry noticed the portraits too...but did not notice a new one.

This is my theory and I'm sticking to it. Severus is not dead, he's just hanging out in the batcave.

Na na na na na na na na na Bat Man! *giggle*

To be honest, I don't think that Snape is honestly dead.

Hear me out on this one before you judge, I'm not just saying this because I adore Severus, even though I do and always have.

I don't think he's dead because there was no new portrait in the Headmaster's office. Severus was headmaster for a year, so I believe that if he were honestly dead, there would be a portrait there.

Harry noticed the portraits too...but did not notice a new one.

This is my theory and I'm sticking to it. Severus is not dead, he's just hanging out in the batcave.

Na na na na na na na na na Bat Man! *giggle*

Teehee! That is so optimistic of you! I really really wish that were true - but as much as I want to believe it, I can't, because after Snape said "Look...at...me..." Harry noted that his eyes had gone dead.

There's no more life in Snape. And he lost a lot of blood. :upset::upset:

Although seriously, that portrait question needs to be seriously addressed by JKR.

Teehee! That is so optimistic of you! I really really wish that were true - but as much as I want to believe it, I can't, because after Snape said "Look...at...me..." Harry noted that his eyes had gone dead.

There's no more life in Snape. And he lost a lot of blood. :upset::upset:

Although seriously, that portrait question needs to be seriously addressed by JKR.

He's the potions Master, he would have been able to take a Blood-Replenishing potion. He faked his death (shoot, Harry did it, why couldn't Severus?) because he knew that would be the ONLY way Harry would have listened to him, or viewed his memories. I can make my eyes look dead...I scared my mother half to death doing it once.

But why would he do that? Why would he fake his death? Why had nobody heard about it 19 years later? That calls for more books and she doesn't have any planned. I think the reason the portrait isn't there is because Snape never acknowledged himself as headmaster. He killed Dumbledore and got that position, I think he would have been revolted at the fact that he "replaced" Dumbledore. Plus, Hogwarts itself sometimes has that spirit where it rejects things. Maybe because of the circumstances and because Snape might have rejected himself it rejected him too...?

Severus was headmaster for a year, so I believe that if he were honestly dead, there would be a portrait there.

Harry noticed the portraits too...but did not notice a new one.


Glad you saw that too. Professor Snape was, I believe, the Potions Master at this school for how long? Might he have realized Nagini's lethal potential on meeting her, and carried a magical equivalent to antivenin? (Google Muggle-known effect of cobra bites and antivenins/neostigmine). Our dear, brilliant but betimes overwrought Hermione (-"- there's no wood!" "Have you gone mad? Are you a witch or not?") sure produced that flask quickly, as if she just grabbed it and shoved it at Harry. Is that a glimmer of light? Could it be coming from a... loophole? I suspect at some point JKR will say "No, sorry, Snape really bought it." but I wonder... :agree:

Exactly, Snape, a man who put emphasis on keeping feelings hidden and never wearing your heart on your sleeve, showed Harry some MAJORLY personal and private thoughts. Things like stealing the picture of Lily laughing and a piece of paper because it had her signature on it; Crying over her death and wishing he were dead too; his obvious crush on her as a child… the list goes on and on. Only a few memories of Lily had to be exposed to prove his point, but instead he exposed some very deep and private feelings that he didn’t have to expose; I probably wouldn’t have.

I don't think he had a choice over what he gave Harry at that point. I think the memories were seeping out in much the same way his blood was flowing. That's one of the reasons I think his death scene is a masterpiece of irony. Like I've said before, here is this man so supremely self-contained who is now completely emptied out and revealed.

But I also don't think he regrets too much that Harry will see those memories. Perhaps it's bitter that it has to be Harry, but at least, and at last, someone will know the truth and the extent of his sacrifice.

To be honest, I don't think that Snape is honestly dead.

Hear me out on this one before you judge, I'm not just saying this because I adore Severus, even though I do and always have.

I don't think he's dead because there was no new portrait in the Headmaster's office. Severus was headmaster for a year, so I believe that if he were honestly dead, there would be a portrait there.

Harry noticed the portraits too...but did not notice a new one.

This is my theory and I'm sticking to it. Severus is not dead, he's just hanging out in the batcave.

Na na na na na na na na na Bat Man! *giggle*

Plus there was no mention of how his body having been retrieved. Harry just goes to bed. Very disturbing.

But...The way the author talks about this character there is no doubt in my mind that he really is dead. She doesm't seem to like him. She doesn't believe he was a hero.

memyselfandi qoted: "I think the reason the portrait isn't there is because Snape never acknowledged himself as headmaster. He killed Dumbledore and got that position, I think he would have been revolted at the fact that he "replaced" Dumbledore. Plus, Hogwarts itself sometimes has that spirit where it rejects things. Maybe because of the circumstances and because Snape might have rejected himself it rejected him too...?"
i have been saying this for days, but you put it so much better than I did. I don't think Snape really thought of himself as headmaster; DD had already asked him to take the position upon DDs death to try and protect the kids from the Carrows. I agree that this is probably the main reason there is no portrait of Snape in the headmasters office.

also, at first, he had no idea that the prophecy was pointing at Lily's son!

But it's okay to let LV target someone else? That's where we are talking about selfless love and self-satisfied love. We must remember that Severus, although he acted out of love for Lily, acted out of a kind of love which someone in here once called "tunnel love" which is appropriate because everything was about her and he couldn't see anything else. Severus' actions to tell Dumbledore what he'd done was simply because of Lily - no matter the threat put to Neville or Harry or any other kid it could have been about. His wanting to help Harry was not about saving the kid from Voldemort but avenging Lily's death and making sure she didn't die in vain. And all along the way, Severus used Sirius and Harry as scapegoats for blame - It is because of Harry that Lily had to die (not me). It is because of Sirius that Voldemort could get to Lily (not me). Those were Severus' thoughts. Deep down he knew where the blame lay, but like Harry would do, he sought to put the blame elsewhere.

I'm not the type to try to make Severus into a nicer person than he is as I'm seeing many fans are doing. If Rowling wants us to remember that Severus was heavily flawed but still Good categorically speaking, then I will think of Severus as a royal jerk who had a horrible life which, as a heavily faulted person he couldn't overcome it all, but at least in the end he had a little heart. I mean, Harry said he saw a tiny bit of "something" leave Severus' eyes when he died - Severus didn't have eyes that were completely empty after all.

I think Rowling uses that theme of eyes being windows to the soul - in the end, Severus had a little something there.

memyselfandi qoted: "I think the reason the portrait isn't there is because Snape never acknowledged himself as headmaster. He killed Dumbledore and got that position, I think he would have been revolted at the fact that he "replaced" Dumbledore. Plus, Hogwarts itself sometimes has that spirit where it rejects things. Maybe because of the circumstances and because Snape might have rejected himself it rejected him too...?"
i have been saying this for days, but you put it so much better than I did. I don't think Snape really thought of himself as headmaster; DD had already asked him to take the position upon DDs death to try and protect the kids from the Carrows. I agree that this is probably the main reason there is no portrait of Snape in the headmasters office.

Can we actually expect it that Voldemort didn't want Severus doing something else? Voldemort instated Severus at Hogwarts. That was luck. Dumbledore wanted Severus to protect the students, okay. But how did Dumbledore know Severus wouldn't be appointed to Minister of Magic or some other higher up office to oversee stuff? Hogwarts? I know he spent so much time there, but it's luck that Voldemort kept Severus there. Voldemort's orders are more important in the matter because he's the one who calls the shots. And as McGonagall was allowed access to the headmaster's office at the end of HBP, but then Severus was allowed access in DH, I'm inclined to think that McGonagall stepped down when Voldemort "took over" Hogwarts because it doesn't make sense that the school would recognize Snape as headmaster, especially with letting him change the password to the office to Dumbledore. Severus was headmaster for the full year. The office recognized him as such. So did McGonagall. He was "appointed" the post according to the papers. It seems like a legitimate deal. And there isn't any other evidence to suggest that he shouldn't get the portrait because Umbridge certainly didn't count as she usurped the post from Dumbledore AND McGonogall, and McGonagall had the post for a tiny while when Dumbledore stepped down in Chamber of Secrets. Point being, there seems to be a time thing in there, and Severus, I think, served out the necessary time as headmaster, was recognized as the headmaster, and should be recognized further with a portrait - his advice could be very helpful in the future: He can help future headmasters by advising them on the effective measures to take when dealing with students who proclaim open war on the headmaster and take to graffiti, pranks, and subterfuge. He can also give advice on how to not lose one's head under intense pressure (I don't think a single headmaster has had to deal with as much pressure as Severus handled in his one year of duty). :cool:

But I think we were coming from the standpoint that Snape himself may not of thought of himself as "legit". We don't know how the portraits manifest. Does the headmaster deem it okay? Does the castle have any say in the matter? Can the headmaster say "no" to the idea of the portrait? Since we don't know how it works, we can't say why there wasn't a portrait of Snape in there. I suppose that's part of why we are here; speculation. But back to your point of Snape and LV. I just can't picture LV putting Snape anywhere else but Hogwarts, can you? Despite the confidence LV had in Snape, he also knew that Snape had been a teacher for 16 years and I don't think LV was dense enough to have thougtht the Carrows could run the school. LV knew that some of the teachers were against him and in Snape, LV had an automatic person the teachers would "hate" and fear.

Plus there was no mention of how his body having been retrieved. Harry just goes to bed. Very disturbing.

But...The way the author talks about this character there is no doubt in my mind that he really is dead. She doesm't seem to like him. She doesn't believe he was a hero.


Snape's death was in such a place in the book that details of his burial would have been an unnecessary addition...there isn't any place where it could be squeezed in. Harry's announcing publicly that Snape was good feels tonnes better. Imagine...that scene where Snape's fleeing from McGonagall and Co., and she says that dialogue about "there will be no more murders here". Snape had to bear all that even though he had acted on Dumbledore's orders...and now he's publicly redeemed in everyone's eyes. That feels better. :) And Harry's dialogue about his bravery. Not all of the main characters were mentioned in the epilogue, so being mentioned there is significant.

I'm sorry, why would he be alive? There is no way! I think is he were JKR would have included it with canon. She would have mentioned him being, well... alive!

Why have such a plot twist when she isn't planning on writing any more books?

(unless she's lying to us, in which case that's just CRUEL!)

maybe Severus didnt want to have a portrait after all (got that from the other thread), so dont fuss, thats how he is, he doesn't need that to remind everyone that he was once a Headmaster, he didnt want to be recognized as such, he was just an ordinary teacher with an extraordinary heart.. I'll definitely miss him..

I don't think Snape's alive at all and I think his death scene wa a travesty myself after HBP and what was built up by the creator - it was a let down.

However, to keep the fun of the "maybe he's alive" theory going.... we can all remember that in the first book Snape told his students that he could even teach them how to make a potion to "stopper death". :)

I'm sorry, why would he be alive? There is no way! I think is he were JKR would have included it with canon. She would have mentioned him being, well... alive!

Why have such a plot twist when she isn't planning on writing any more books?

(unless she's lying to us, in which case that's just CRUEL!)

Her lack of detail is making writers of Snape fanfiction happy. A (doubtless unintended) final gift to us. :D

Yeap, i thought he would die and was pretty sure he was on the good side, still an "evil" person though. But after all the memorys we got to see i felt really sorry him, his death kinda felt like meh... the way he died and that dumbledores plan went wrong.

it was very sad, he was so near to achieve his "goal", and he wasnt very old and had basically lived all his life for lily. would have been weird if he lived though

You know... I was so sad when I read the chapter "The Princes Tale". To see that Snape really cared for Harry and loved Lily all through his life... I must say... I was very sad to see the way Snape died too...

I didn't read a single word in that chapter that would indicate Snape cared for Harry. Snape hated Harry. He did what Dumbledore asked of him out of loyalty to Lily - not because of any affection for her son.

Just my two cents.

One thing that REALLY bothered me about Snape's death was:

Why didn't his portrait as headmaster appear in Dumbledore's old office?!



Give it time, it will come - It better had anyway! Did Dumbledore's portrait appear as soon as he was killed?

I have wondered though, shouldn't Umbridge have a portrait in the office {not that I would want that}. She was a Headmaster, and theoretically should be there to offer HER advice to fellow Headmasters following her?

I think only someone who has TRUELY loved and lost can completely understand Severus. His life and death were a product of an empty heart. He was the best written character in the series and yes, death could be his only peace.

Do you believe it was necessary?

It was necessary to Harry, because he needed to stop being angry against him. As he saw the way Snape died, he began to pity him. The fact that he approached the dying man showed the confusion in Harry. The man he hated was lying on the floor and he had to go and approach him. I think Harry had to accept Snape was human after all, to accept there was more with him.
And Harry would not accept any explanations from a living Snape.

But saying that, death is not necessary in war. It is always unexcepted, violent and unfair.

Did you see it coming?

Well, I guessed he might die. He was so important to the plot. And I have always seen Snape as a teacher in Harry's life, even a little paternal figure. Every character with that symbolic had to die to let Harry grow up.

What did you think about how he died?

It was odd. Snape always seemed to be a great wizard. He foresaw what Voldemort was about to do (he raised his wand), but Rowling did not give him the right to fight. According to me, it was very contrary to what she showed us of him. I can't imagine Snape, after all he had done, just being bitten and died. He must had to fight, at least a little, showing how powerful he was.
But being killed by the snake, not by an Avada Kedavra...That was a "nice" idea. And the fact that Voldemort killed him for the Elder wand shows a lot about the Dark Lord, and how Snape's position was terrible.

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?

I must admit it, this made me feeling sad. I did not cry reading the book, and I didn't cry for Snape. But I always thought that Snape was an amazing character, complicated, nasty and wonderful. And that was the end. And I realized after "the Prince's tale", that Snape's whole life was unhappy, violent, grim. Everything he had done to help Harry after Lily's death, to feel maybe less guilty... He will never know if he actually managed to help Harry survive. Poor guy... His life was very very terrible..

Her lack of detail is making writers of Snape fanfiction happy. A (doubtless unintended) final gift to us. :D


Ok, granted- but because fanfics suggest that Snape is alive doesn't mean that JKR intended for him to live on!

I think she made it painfully clear that snape is dead.

I never thought someone would say that a harry potter book had a "lack of detail"..

Maybe the epilogue didn't address everything, but that's what the encyclopedia is for!

Ok, granted- but because fanfics suggest that Snape is alive doesn't mean that JKR intended for him to live on!

I think she made it painfully clear that snape is dead.

I never thought someone would say that a harry potter book had a "lack of detail"..

Maybe the epilogue didn't address everything, but that's what the encyclopedia is for!

I agree. It was made pretty obvious that Snape is in fact dead, however much we(I) wanted him to live.

LOL! And I mean I literally laughed out loud when I read your remark.

I happen to have green eyes. But I doubt Snape could tolerate me because I have too many similarities to Harry. I have relatives who are Evanses, my name is the feminine form of James, I even have a scar on my forehead! LOL

No matter. I couldn't tolerate Snape either unless he did something about that hair. Greasy strings are just not my thing.

ooo yeh isn't his voice nice tho!! hee lol

Ok, granted- but because fanfics suggest that Snape is alive doesn't mean that JKR intended for him to live on!

I think she made it painfully clear that snape is dead.

I never thought someone would say that a harry potter book had a "lack of detail"..

Maybe the epilogue didn't address everything, but that's what the encyclopedia is for!

agree!

It was quite a gruesome death for the poor fellow. I was never wuite sure whether he was good or bad throughout the enitre series, Id convince myself he was good and then something would come along to completely destroy the theory.
I do think though looking at it retrospectively, that he had to die, 'for the greater good' I do not believe that he could ever had had a happy existence as I believe that he never got over his love for Lily, so now that his task was complete. To protect Harry at all costs, I dont think that the character could really have gone any further.
I really wasnt expecting it though, I mean do you think that Voldemort had the slightest suspicion that Snape was good? It does however prove something about Voldemorts character. That he really does feel absolutely nothing. I mean I know that this has been impressed upon us throughout the enitre series but to kill so grotesquely one of who he believed to be a very faithful death-eater. I just shows the lengths that V will go to to achieve his goal.

I think only someone who has TRUELY loved and lost can completely understand Severus. His life and death were a product of an empty heart. He was the best written character in the series and yes, death could be his only peace.

Thank you for writing that. I completely freaking agree.

What a total shock that was! It was quite sad and pointless death. He needn't have died like that. But it's not like I didn't see his death coming. I wanted him to die on Harry's side having left the Death Eaters. Instead he's killed by Voldemort, working as a Death Eater, killed for Death Eater duties all the while his loyalty was to Albus D. and Harry. Always the double-agent.

It was necessary. And Snape last words being telling Harry to look at him so he could see Lily's eyes one last time was heartbreaking.

i thought Snape's death was very well done. It was a bit anticlimactic, but I think the fact that he was killed so cruelly and suddenly, added to the tragedy of the whole thing.

I admit I was hoping for a personal interaction between Harry and Snape to explain everything, but the revelations in the pensieve turned out even better. The whole tale was absolutely heart breaking. I always suspected that Snape loved Lily, but I could never appreciate the full impact that love had on Snape until I read this chapter. It was by far the most heart breaking moment in the whole book, perhaps the series.

Snape was always one of my favorite characters, and I always hoped he and Harry would come to some kind of understanding in the end. It sucks that he had to die, but the way Snape was completely vindicated in the end, with Harry calling him "the bravest mad he ever knew" was too good to be true. A truly wonderful way to end the story of Severus Snape.

I think only someone who has TRUELY loved and lost can completely understand Severus. His life and death were a product of an empty heart. He was the best written character in the series and yes, death could be his only peace.

I appreciate the comment.

but here is a question:

Did Snape TRULY love Lily?

I could go either way with this question.

if he truly did love Lily, I don't think he would have ever called Lily a Mudblood. I also think he would have done everything in his power to make things right with her, which would consist of leaving his DE friends in the dust.

Perhaps it is possible he didn't realize how much he did truly love her until her life was in danger.

maybe he loved her all along. After all he did die for her son!

I don't think anyone can truly understand Snape unless your name is JK Rowling. To love and to have lost isn't enough.

Give it time, it will come - It better had anyway! Did Dumbledore's portrait appear as soon as he was killed?

I have wondered though, shouldn't Umbridge have a portrait in the office {not that I would want that}. She was a Headmaster, and theoretically should be there to offer HER advice to fellow Headmasters following her?

Umbridge is not dead. It says in one of the books specifically that the portraits in that room were of dead headmasters/headmistresses

I appreciate the comment.

but here is a question:

Did Snape TRULY love Lily?

I could go either way with this question.

if he truly did love Lily, I don't think he would have ever called Lily a Mudblood. I also think he would have done everything in his power to make things right with her, which would consist of leaving his DE friends in the dust.

Perhaps it is possible he didn't realize how much he did truly love her until her life was in danger.

maybe he loved her all along. After all he did die for her son!

I don't think anyone can truly understand Snape unless your name is JK Rowling. To love and to have lost isn't enough.

i would like to think that he probably did not understand that he loved Lily when he was younger, and only realized it so when he got older.

Or, if he did, then it would have been a difficult choice for him because I think the dark arts were a lifelong passion, and Lily was his object of affection. To choose between your future or a woman might have been too puzzling and too great at his young age. He's not like Harry, who will risk everything to protect his loved ones and had known so at a young age, and that's probably why he didn't give up on his death eater friends or the dark arts so quickly.

And I think it might have been a bit of a pain to just see James and the other marauders always hanging around Lily because they were in the same house and everything...:P

This thread is so that you may discuss your reaction to Severus Snape's death.

Do you believe it was necessary?

No it wasn't necessary [but I am biased because he is my favourite character and I wanted him to live!

Did you see it coming?

Not really - I was excited to see how it would all be resolved though. I always knew Snape was good [well I desperately wanted it to be that way], but I didn't know how it would be explained to make it all okay. I thought he might die [along with lots of other characters], but was praying that he would survive.

What did you think about how he died?

Now this part made me mad. If he HAD to die, surely it could have been done in a more memorable way. It was so anti-climatic.

As I was reading the book I was eager to read as much about Snape as I could - I would have liked him to have more interactions with Harry. And if he had to die, I would have liked him to step in front of Harry or something noble like that, or die in battle [killed by a death eater of course] when someone realised he was on Harry's/Dumbledore's side. Did not like the death scene at all!

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?

Still in shock and very sad - I am grieving!

anyone can think of the name of that flying spell that only snape and voldemort knew? i cant imagine voldemort teaching only snape it without teaching bellatrix too

I'd imagine it must have been some of the most advanced, and rather new, Dark Magic.

to quote Quidditch Through the Ages, which is as recent as 8 years prior t Deathly Hallows:

No spell yet devised enables wizards to fly unaided in human form.

:p
To me it confirmed something I had suspected in HBP - that Snape had come to care about Harry as Harry, and not only as the son of Lily. Not the act of gioving the memories itself, but the memories he chose to give. If it had been all about business (completing his assigned mission) all he need have given were a couple of memoreis explaining why Dumbledore trusted him, and the memory with the information Harry needed. Harry got a LOT more than that.
Ya know, that was a weird scene. All that gunk flowing out of his mouth and ears and the like. Is that the way Wizards die? When DD died, was there this big ol silver wet spot on the grass at the base of the castle wall? :lol:

Or can (some) wizards just will their memories to be released like this? And if so, can they control what memories are released? Snape seemed to be able to do so.

I didn't read a single word in that chapter that would indicate Snape cared for Harry. Snape hated Harry. He did what Dumbledore asked of him out of loyalty to Lily - not because of any affection for her son.

Just my two cents.
I didnt either. Thank you! Lol! Jo said herself that Snape cared absolutely nothing for that boy. He hated Harry as much (probably) as he hated James. Harry reminded him of James and he couldnt stand the boy.

He might (and i emphasize the word might) have had a slight change of heart when he was dying and this may have led him to give Harry some of those memories. But I wouldnt bet the house on it. Lol!

1. Do you believe it was necessary?
I don't believe it was necessary.

2. Did you see it coming?
It wasn't really whether I saw it coming, it was that I didn't want to see it coming. Snape is my favourite character; I didn't want him to die.

3. What did you think about how he died?
A snake? Really? Is that all he was worth? Just being bitten by a snake? How unfair. But at least Voldemort didn't just whip out the killing curse. Then we wouldn't have gotten Snape's memories and Snape wouldn't have been able to look into Lily's eyes (through Harry) for the last time.
edit to add a revised opinion; With Snape's death being this way, it seriously feels like JKR abandoned Snape. I mean, sure, going out in a blaze of glory may have given away his position, but if he was going to die (like many of us seem to feel) would it have really mattered? (It probably would have but after rereading the death scene for Snape and reading other people's opinions and reviews, I really just feel cheated.)

4.And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?
Even just posting and looking at information about him brings tears to my eyes. This is going to sound extremely sad, but I cried harder for Severus Snape than I have cried for anything else in my entire life so far. And my tears got so bad when I was reading his memories that he gave to Harry that I had to set the book down for a few minutes to compose myself. To answer your question though, I'm still in shock and quite sad. To quote an icon a found at a Deathly Hallows community on livejournal: "NOT MY POTIONS MASTER, YOU *****!" (without the stars, of course)

It was the only way Voldemort could move forward but, it was a cheap death!
I expected Snape to go out in 'a blaze of glory'! Not a 'throw away death' like a DVD player that is stuffed and replaced.

I did expect him to die and I knew he was good, but he didn't die the way I thought he would. I agree with those that have said it was a pointless death that really hammered home just how emotionless V is. I also think that it's important that Snape died without his cover being blown, showing that to the end he was Dumbledore's spy and I think the fact that this wasn't discovered until after his death is a true testament to his ability as well as all he suffered through during the war.

In saying all that, Snape’s death was the one that hit me the hardest, he'd been my favourite from the start and to discover all he'd been through was truly heartbreaking.

Do you believe it was necessary? I don't think I would say necessary because I can envisage scenarios where he is badly injured but lives, but i think it was necessary for him to be attacked/hurt so that he could give Harry the memories

Did you see it coming? no

What did you think about how he died? I was sad for him, it was merciless but then again I wouldn't expect less from Voldemort

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still? still sad for Snape, but happy that Harry named his son Albus Severus

ooo yeh isn't his voice nice tho!! hee lol



Hell Yeah! I liked Snape anyway just from reading the books, but Alan Rickman tipped me over the edge into being a devoted supporter!

After rereading, I believe he commited suicide, not looking for it explicitely, but when time came he chose to not defend himself: he had been looking at Nagini's cage for a while, -and had time to plot something. When Voldemort called him 'smart' he knew it was over. Why Snape chose not to fight? He carried a huge torch all his life. Lead a very tormented life. After Lily died he had nothing to live for except revenging her death. He'd done his job for Harry at that point and I think he was fine with death, he was not afraid to die.

I am happy that Snape was, as i believed, Good. He has been my favorite character throughout the series and i felt that Dumbledore couldnt have trusted him blindly. I also had a feeling that he was in love with Lily though not as early as it was revealed.

I cried all through The Prince~s Tale and believe he shouldnt have died that way he he did. at least Harry in the end understood Snape and did a wonderful thing in naming one of his kids after him.

You wil always be in my heart Severus Snape!

Why Snape chose not to fight? He carried a huge torch all his life. Lead a very tormented life. After Lily died he had nothing to live for except revenging her death. He'd done his job for Harry at that point and I think he was fine with death, he was not afraid to die.

You are absolutely right. Lily has always been his sole purpose to live. While she was alive he might have hoped to get closer to her again, when she died, his only thought was revenging her death. Though Voldemort seemed to have disappeared, I'm sure Snape knew he would return eventually. He did his best to protect Harry and when he knew Harry would succeed, having realised the Elder Wand was never his, he choose not to act, not to save his own life, but to make Voldemort think that he was invincible after conquering Snape.
His last service to Lily Evans' son.

Of course his death looks pointless anyway and we had all wanted to see him redeem himself in front of everyone, but that was not what mattered to Snape himself.
He did everything he could for his great love, though she had died such a long time ago. Now he could finally leave the life he hated and move on to the next great adventure, as Dumbledore called it, without remorse or regrets. Maybe he will meet Lily again in the afterlife and look into her eyes knowing that she has forgiven him.

To Snape, the bravest man Harry Potter ever knew.

For the people here who have complained about how Snape was killed by Nagini rather than by magic, remember that at the time Voldamort thought that his wand was still loyal to Snape. That probably made him reluctant to cast AK or some other curse on Snape, especially since he had recently had so much trouble with wands not behaving the way he expected them to. He probably also had at least some respect for Snape's powers as a wizard, since he thought Snape was the one who killed Dumbledore and all. Combine the fact that he thought Snape was a powerful wizard with the fact that he thought his own wand was still loyal to Snape, and it makes perfect sense that he would kill Snape by ambushing him with Nagini rather than trying to use magic.

Or can (some) wizards just will their memories to be released like this? And if so, can they control what memories are released? Snape seemed to be able to do so.

We saw the deaths of Cedric and Charity Burbage onpage, and no memories oozed out. Also, it happened before Snape died. He oozed out the memories, saw that Harry and Hermione had taken them as he asked, and then asked Harry to look at him and died. I therefore think this was a conscious choice by Snape.

I didnt either. Thank you! Lol! Jo said herself that Snape cared absolutely nothing for that boy. He hated Harry as much (probably) as he hated James. Harry reminded him of James and he couldnt stand the boy.

That was in answer to the question of whether he would have done anything about the prophecy if it had not been Lily in danger, and her answer was no, he could not have cared less. Her answer (and the question) did not address what may or may not have happened over the years, it applies to Snape the young Death Eater. I don't think it was a deathbed conversion, I think it had happened by about the midpoint of HBP.

Combine the fact that he thought Snape was a powerful wizard with the fact that he thought his own wand was still loyal to Snape...


D'OH!!!! Of COURSE!!!!

Snape was the master of the Elder Wand (in Voldemort's belief) and so the Elder Wand would not kill him! THAT must be why he didn't AK him!

Kinda obvious, now...(bonks head)

We saw the deaths of Cedric and Charity Burbage onpage, and no memories oozed out. Also, it happened before Snape died. He oozed out the memories, saw that Harry and Hermione had taken them as he asked, and then asked Harry to look at him and died. I therefore think this was a conscious choice by Snape.

After Harry saw the memories from Snape, for a while I was afraid that Snape had somehow faked the memories. After all, he was supposed to be one of the greatest occulmens alive. I thought that perhaps Snape was trying to arrange things with his last few moments of life so that the two people who he hated most in the world would kill each other. He would only have had to make a few slight modifications to his "real" memories for it to work...

Of course, thankfully that wasn't what was happening.

I think this death will make an awesome scene in the movie. Big snake opens mouth, snape screams, goners. So it was good for that reason. Apart from that, he could have died in another way and that would have been fine too.

I had a feeling that he would die, so i wasn't that surprised. However, I was surprised at how he died. You would have thought that a wizard so powerful as himself would have been able to kill Nagini or something.
This makes me wonder, did he want to die?

I wonder if Voldemort could have brought himself to kill Snape by his own hands. Granted V thought the wands true master was Snape, but, if V had another wand, do you think he could have killed Snape?

Snape was a loyal follower and proved to V that he could be trusted. In the first chapter when Snape walks into the dinning room at Malfoy Manner, V left the seat to the right of him open for Snape. Snape had the place of honor at the table. By giving Snape that seat, V showed to the rest of the Death Eaters that Snape was the one he trusted the most. He showed, in the only way that a person with hardly any feelings beyond hate could show, how much he liked Snape. He even tried not to kill Lily at first because Snape cared about her and asked him to spare her. The only reason V wanted Snape dead was because of the wand. I'm not sure if V could have killed his most loyal follower, or so V thought he was. Maybe that could be why he used Nagini. V did not want to kill the person who was most loyal.

I feel that Snape's death, along with the deaths of Tonks, Lupin, Colin, Pettigrew and others were a bit anticlimactic. None of these people got the big death scene or even a grieving scene. Snape's was probably the best out of all of the others. I just though Snape should have died in a much more exciting way, not kneeling before Voldemort and then attacked by Nagini - although he had his death scene I do not think it was what he had earned. "The Prince's Tale" definitely overshadowed his death.

I think V.'s way of killing Snape is exactly as it has been described- cold and emotionless. he says "i regret it" but he doesn't say it with any kind of remorse. But I thought that Snape's actual moment of death was the way it should have been for "one of the bravest men" Harry ever knew- to be looking into the eyes of the only woman he loved. Even in death, Snape was defying V.

i always wanted to believe that Snape was a little deeper than what we are shown. like he has lots of secrets but we see him as quite a focused charater who just thinks about one thing. The only thing that made me think was in the chapter the princes tale lily asks snape if "they" have stopped arguing. which points to how snape was brought up with argumementative parents and being constantly around it. showing that other things may have hurt him and been inportant i wish we could have read about that. any one see what i mean or are you all lost lol!

when time came he chose to not defend himself: he had been looking at Nagini's cage for a while, -and had time to plot something
I think he was looking at Nagini because he was thinking of what Dumbledore said about when Voldy starts keeping the snake close and fears for her life. Snape wasn't thinking that Voldy was going to kill him.
I also think Voldy used Nagini to kill Snape because otherwise it would habve been a long drawn out thing because Snape was an accomplished wizard and Voldy needed the element of surprise. Snape made a move when Voldy moved the wand, possible that Snape cast a shield charm. Once the cage descended on Snape, it didn't seem that there was anything he could do. I pictures the cage over Snape's head and shoulders, pinning his arms to his side. No way to defend himself then.

I didn't think his death was necessary. I was shocked by it to. I knew Snape was not evil. He was mean to Harry and now it's pretty obvious why, but he was never evil. I guess JKR's response to questions about Snape's ability to love and to be in love were intended to throw readers. It was romantic and tragic to learn that he had loved Lily since they were children and that while they were at Hogwarts the came so close to being together, but it was not to be. I feel sorry for him.

I think he was looking at Nagini because he was thinking of what Dumbledore said about when Voldy starts keeping the snake close and fears for her life. Snape wasn't thinking that Voldy was going to kill him.
I also think Voldy used Nagini to kill Snape because otherwise it would habve been a long drawn out thing because Snape was an accomplished wizard and Voldy needed the element of surprise. Snape made a move when Voldy moved the wand, possible that Snape cast a shield charm. Once the cage descended on Snape, it didn't seem that there was anything he could do. I pictures the cage over Snape's head and shoulders, pinning his arms to his side. No way to defend himself then.

i think that Snape wouldn't have defended himself no matter how voldy tried to kill him. he knew when voldy was talkin to him that he intended to kill him

Do you believe it was necessary?
Yes, I believe he had to die because it makes everyone see how loyal he was to Dumbledore.

Did you see it coming?
I didn't, I always thought that Snape was in the bad side, so I got shocked when I realised how much he had helped Harry at school and how loyal he had been to Dumbledore.

What did you think about how he died?
I think it's unfair, Voldemort kills him to obtain the Elder Wand without any regret...

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?
In total shock!

i always wanted to believe that Snape was a little deeper than what we are shown. like he has lots of secrets but we see him as quite a focused charater who just thinks about one thing. The only thing that made me think was in the chapter the princes tale lily asks snape if "they" have stopped arguing. which points to how snape was brought up with argumementative parents and being constantly around it. showing that other things may have hurt him and been inportant i wish we could have read about that. any one see what i mean or are you all lost lol!

i always wanted to believe that Snape was a little deeper than what we are shown. like he has lots of secrets but we see him as quite a focused charater who just thinks about one thing. The only thing that made me think was in the chapter the princes tale lily asks snape if "they" have stopped arguing. which points to how snape was brought up with argumementative parents and being constantly around it. showing that other things may have hurt him and been inportant i wish we could have read about that. any one see what i mean or are you all lost lol!

it would have been good to see harry kill snape not knowing he was a 'good guy.' I bet u hate me for saying this.... However i really wanted snape to be killed fighting for his heart Lily, or in the circumstances trying to save harry

However i really wanted snape to be killed fighting for his heart Lily, or in the circumstances trying to save harry

Me too!! Snape and lily are like cathy and heathcliff from wuthering heights!!!! i love a romance!! Die for the one you love!

I appreciate the comment.

To love and to have lost isn't enough.

Then maybe you haven't loved and lost. And if you have, I doubt you are completely unloved and without family/friends. Whatever.

I guess i was kind of shocked that Snape died but i was even more surprised that he was actually dumbledore's man through and through. I totally thought Snape was bad, and i'm not afraid to admit it. When i first read the part when he died, i nearly through a party. (no offense to you all) But then i read the next chapter (The Prince's Tale) and i had myself a delayed cry. I was kind of mad about how Voldemort killed him actually. I wasn't impressed that he just let the snake/horcrux kill him. I thought that was kind of weak for Voldemort.

I guess i was kind of shocked that Snape died but i was even more surprised that he was actually dumbledore's man through and through. I totally thought Snape was bad, and i'm not afraid to admit it. When i first read the part when he died, i nearly through a party. (no offense to you all) But then i read the next chapter (The Prince's Tale) and i had myself a delayed cry. I was kind of mad about how Voldemort killed him actually. I wasn't impressed that he just let the snake/horcrux kill him. I thought that was kind of weak for Voldemort.


maybe he respected snape too much for him to kill him personally, then again theres the whole issue of how would he give harry the memories. i cried during the princes tale chapter, it was the only time i cried thruought the whole book.

it would have been good to see harry kill snape not knowing he was a 'good guy.' I bet u hate me for saying this.... However i really wanted snape to be killed fighting for his heart Lily, or in the circumstances trying to save harry

But he did... He died while he was working against LV in his attempt to save Harry (via DD's orders) in the name of Lily. No, he didn't stand in front of Harry or anything like that...but that's just not Snape, is it? And Harry just couldn't have anymore people stand inbetween he and LV. Snape's death fit him: it was a sacrifice that would have gone completely unnoticed, it was not at the hands of the innocent, and it was in the memory of Lily. I thought it was very appropriate.

Do you believe it was necessary?
Well, I don't know what to believe on this. I don't think he should have died beacause he never had any of happiness in his life except for Lily but she was soon taken away from him. His life was miserable but he should have stayed alive and become a godfather of one of Harry's children or something. But really, if he didn't die, would he have given Harry the memory of him and Lily?
Did you see it coming?
Yes, but I didn't see it coming at the way he died.
What did you think about how he died?
I thought it came as a suprise. Though I think he shouldn't have died that way.
And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?
I'm really really sad and am in total shock. I have come to love Snape and wished that he hadn't died, and live and find something else to love. I just hope that he and Lily will be together in the afterlife.

I just though Snape should have died in a much more exciting way, not kneeling before Voldemort and then attacked by Nagini - although he had his death scene I do not think it was what he had earned. "The Prince's Tale" definitely overshadowed his death.

Oh, definitely. But I think that is as it should have been. Snape's greatest sacrifice was not his death, but his life, so it is fitting that the story of his life overshadowed his death.

I didn't expect it to be so unheroic. Despite the fact that he died in such a lonely manner, I cannot help but see Severus Snape as the true hero of the book. Despite plenty of weaknesses in his character, you can see how much courage it took him to give the memories to Harry. His love for Lily was such a tragic story, and obviously powerful enough to cause him to keep his word to Dumbledore 17 years after her death. I respect and esteem him much more now because of the humanity he showed by revealing to Dumbledore his remorse about leading Voldemort to the Potters. When I saw the doe patronus, i knew it was Snape. I had this gut feeling because james was a stag so lily was a doe...it was wierd but i could just tell.
I am glad that harry essentially forgave severus and finally saw the good in him. I was more heartbroken by this death than any other in the book, i was absolutely shattered. I loved Severus Snape's character and it was tragic to see how his story finally ended.

[FONT="Century Gothic"][SIZE="3"]Upon reading your excellent post I just had to add this from a topic I started... (Discussion: Was Harry Potter Really the True Hero? Or...)

I wrote some more on this same theme about Snape being the hero...

It's Snape! He's the real anti-hero and hero over Voldemort. Snape exemplifies or proves love can be perfect even in total isolation. He ultimately is the conquerer of LV; Snape always had the total loss, time and time again. He died for love in total isolation. Snape is the hidden hero that truly represents love's endurance, in isolation, in ridicule, in death, in complete self-sacrifice. He was not lovable in Harry's eyes, which is how most of HP is written from HP's viewpoint or his friends' viewpoint.

Snape's life was the most difficult life to live with love departed and then relinquish life without any visible reward except his isolated knowing of love. That was an incredibly painful and difficult life that was still of incredible value to others, especially to Harry! Voldemort's "living death" was ultimately isolation and death by hatred. LV killed Voldemort, himself! (Harry didn't do it or act; he tried to reason with hatred. You can't.)

You can't reason with love sometimes too. This is what makes Snape such a unique hero. Love personified by Snape as the flip-side or polar opposite of hatred personified by Voldemort. Both characters ended in death and isolation.

For those who are upset and dislike Snape consider this. Harry forgave Snape for his warped behavior, which was not "sane" or friendly at times. Love in isolation is not healthy either, so we can forgive Snape for his failures as we know Harry did by naming his son after him. Snape could not seem normal at times or he would give "the game" away to LV. Sometimes he had to seem evil or mean to defeat real evil. That's not fair to anyone; the victim or "the doer". He was never a traitor, like a double agent, though it may seem that way.

Snape was still very flawed by extreme situations that unbalanced him. This was World War for the wizard world; not an ideal situation for that warfare to be centered around a children's world of learning at Hogwarts.

Could HP have done what Snape did? It's possible, but Harry had tremendous help from many along the way. He was shaped by love given to him in his first year or so of life, and by the many friends (and later recovered family) at age 11 onward. He was famous, rich, groomed & mentored by the best, and loved... Ron & Hermione! Wow.

I see Snape as the ultimate Death Eater of Hatred and the anti-hero -hero. The opposite side of Voldemort; that love, even in isolation, defeats hatred and can still give life meaning! If not to oneself, then at least for others that may never know it.

Here's JKR's own words about Snape from NBC Dateline 7-29-07:

J.K. Rowling: Snape is a complicated man. He's bitter. He's … spiteful. He's a bully. All these things are still true of Snape, even at the end of this book. But was he brave? Yes, immensely.

Was he capable of love? Very definitely. So he's-- he's a very-- he was a flawed human being, like all of us.

Harry forgives him--- as we know, from the epilogue, Harry-- Harry really sees the good in Snape ultimately. I wanted there to be redemption and I wanted there to be forgiveness. And Harry forgives, even knowing that until the end Snape loathed him unjustifiably. it's totally, totally unfair that he loathes him so much but anyway. [End of JKR's comments.]

Remember, James was really cruel to Snape much more so than Snape to Harry. I think Snape was blinded by that anger he would always feel towards James. So, JKR may be a little too harsh about trying to identify Snape's loathing being towards Harry till the end. James is the source. I don't think Harry teased or taunted Snape, so Snape was flawed in his understanding about Harry. His loathing and envy was with James, and he unfairly attached that abuse he received from James onto Harry.


Luna blessings... :tu:

Snape's greatest sacrifice was not his death, but his life, so it is fitting that the story of his life overshadowed his death.

That's a beautiful thought :sad:

Do you believe it was necessary?
In terms of narrative, yes. In terms of feeling, no. I always believed that Snape was good. But it was clear to me that Snape *must* have died in the end. No matter they planned it, he was still Dumbledore's killer. How could he have survived thereafter? There was no life for him after Voldemort's defeat.
Moreover, in the case that Snape was on the bad side, he could have redeemed and be forgiven. Snape's death cast him definitely with the other "meaningless" deaths of good characters - Cedric Diggory, Sirius, Lupin, etc.

Did you see it coming?
No. I hoped it would happen in the very last pages.

What did you think about how he died?
I imagined he would have died in a more heroic way, externally - actually shielding Harry from Voldemort or so on. But now I must agree with zgirnius.

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?
I'm extremely sad that my favourite character died. But I'm happy to learn that he's already getting more fans, and to see how much readers and fans cared for him. Indeed, he was not loved in the series but he's very well loved in the fandom :-)

I thought it was necessary but I was still shocked but I think I was more shocked on how quickly he died and how he did so little to defend himself. I was waiting for more of a heroic finish.

Did you believe it was necessary?
In a way it was... Snape's life had been full of misery, and I couldn't really see any other way that he would prove to Harry his allegiance apart from through his death. And he had to prove it to Harry so that Harry could perform the necessary task ie. going into the forest.

Did you see it coming?
Well, in a way, I did, but not in the way it happened. I saw him maybe dying by showing his true colours to Voldemort or even through one of the trio killing him (which I really didn't want to see). But I didn't see Voldemort killing him for the reasons he did. Then again, I also didn't see harry being a horcrux (oops!!).

What did you think about how he died?
I'm sad that he didn't have a more heroic ending befitting his extreme courage. But I enjoyed the fact that he fooled LV right to the very end.

How did you feel about it?
This was the only death that I actually lost control with. I think I cried even more than when Dumbledore died, and certainly more than when Sirius died (no offense to Padfoot). While he wasn't exactly my favourite character (actually, Lupin and Fred were two of my favourites but I didnt cry as much) I knew in the moment he died pretty much what side he'd been on, his relationship to Lily and everything, before the pensieve scene, and that made it all the more sad, because his life had been so awful.

Wonderful insights, wandrider! I really enjoyed reading your post.

Do you believe it was necessary?
Yes. I always knew that Snape would die. I didn't really see Snape having any sort of happy ending. That doesn't make me happy about it, but I think it was necessary for the story.

Did you see it coming?
Not until immediately before it did. When he was speaking to Voldemort, I had a feeling that he'd be killed.

What did you think about how he died?
I thought that being bitten by Nagini was a little anticlimactic, but I see why the Avada Kedavra curse wasn't used. Snape wouldn't have had the time to give Harry his memories if the killing curse was used.

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?
I'm incredibly sad. I actually was keeping my fingers crossed that Snape was good - I never bought that he was truly a Death Eater even at the end of book 6. When Voldemort killed him, I was crushed, thinking I was misled. I loved Snape!

So I'm so glad that we were able to see his past and see what he had really been going through. I find Snape so interesting - I don't mean to echo what's already been said, but he is extremely flawed and complicated - that is to say, impeccably written, like a Shakespearean character. He has very ugly traits - such as bullying children (which I expect is backlash for being bullied himself) and turning to the dark side in despair. But his bravery is astounding. He's such a tragic figure.

R.I.P., Severus Snape! I hope he finds some happiness in the afterlife since he did not seem to find any of it in life.

Do you believe it was necessary?

I don't really think that Snape had to die. My husband disagrees with me on that point. I think that JKR could have spared Snape if she had really wanted to. There are parts of DH that I think she skimped on in an effort to make the book shorter and get it out faster. Keeping Snape alive would have been too hard for her to do. She took the easy way out and killed him.

Did you see it coming?

After HBP I really thought that Snape was a goner. I had no idea, at first, as to how he could live through the last book. The more I thought about it the more possible outcomes I could come up with for him to survive. I got my hopes up that he had been the one to get the reprive. Alas JKR seems incapable of dealing with complicated characters that are also not among her favorites. Oh well Snape has a happy ending in my mind. Maybe I'll get brave and do a fanfic. Never done one of those before.


What did you think about how he died?

I was crying so hard at that point in the story that I had to re-read his death about five times before it made any sense to me. Part of it was denile and part of it was grief. As many other posters have said I had hoped that if he died it would be after Harry found out he was on the good side. Maybe taking an AK for Harry or any other memeber of the order. So I felt his death was odd. I really think that Fred and Tonks and the others, hell even Hedwig got a better death than Snape. ( Can ya tell I am still bitter?)

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?

The shock has worn off but I am still sad. I feel like I lost a friend or family member. More than that I am angry with JKR. ( I think anger is one of the stages of grief) I really feel that JKR changed her mind about Snape between the end of HBP and the start of DH. She changed something. The gaps in the story. Something just felt off when I read it. I guess it is hard to explain.

Do you believe it was necessary?

Well, I'm not entirely sure. But, Snape's death was somewhat of a mercy act. I think someone mentioned before that he would be a very sad soul if he was still alive after the battle and I couldn't agree more. What with the whole Lily thing still on his mind-it's like he's finally at peace once he died. Plus, the whole way JK described his death and 'The Prince's Tale' afterwards gave him redeeming qualities in my eyes.

Still, if Snape had stayed alive-I feel as if he would've been out of place or something.

Did you see it coming?

Ehrm, well I hadn't really thought about it, though once the chapters in DH started leading up to Snape's death, I started suspecting something.

What did you think about how he died?

As some people have said, it was rather lame. A snake bite? I mean-c'mon! Something more nobler or dramatic could have been good, but then again not everybody can have a Sirius death. But, still a snake bite just seems rather...I don't know, belittling of him I suppose.

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?

I'm content and at peace for everybody. I'm neither sad nor happy nor in total shock, just at peace. I mean, with him finally dying, Snape wouldn't have to deal with the memories of Lily eating at his mind/heart-he would be at peace. Plus, the whole 'look into my eyes' thing when Snape wanted to see Lily's eyes once more was something rather poignant-as if the last thing he wanted to see was the eyes of his love, the person he had been protecting Harry for. With his death, it saves him from the out-of-place feeling (I don't know, I feel as if he would be out of place if he lived) after the battle, but also leaves him in peace with everything about Lily he's been dealing with (especially calling her a 'mudblood')

Well everyone, Rowling just answered a bunch of questions on Bloomsbury's website during an hour and a half live web chat and she confirmed that she actually does think of Snape as something of a hero. That US interview where she questioned whether he should be considered a hero was heavily edited to make it seem like she hates him very much. But she goes on to say that in the end, he did something very heroic, and that was give his life in the name of love. And she appreciates that he saw the error of his ways, and if given a second chance, he would NEVER have joined with the Death Eaters because he realized power was not what he needed. He needed love, and he felt that Lily would have found Death Eater membership impressive. Rowling also went on to say that Lily did love Severus as well and that had he not been so tempted towards the dark side and those connected with Voldemort, then she thinks maybe Lily could have formed romantic feelings for Snape because he was a good person to her. Had he been even better than he was, Rowling seems to think it could have been likely. She also confirmed that James was quite horrible to Severus because he suspected Severus liked Lily more than he let on. Rowling also said Lily and Severus' friendliness was known, but it was also widely known that they stopped being friends. But nobody really knew the level of friendship they had. Rowling also said that Snape is the anti-hero in her eyes, someone we shouldn't think is SO great because he was still a big jerk and really despised Harry right down to the last moment. But he was very much capable of love and goodness and that is the important part. He was also just tragically flawed. Rowling went on to equate Harry's abilities to use Unforgiveables in DH as being like Snape: Harry is no saint, he's tempted to use them; but at least he used them to help the good side.

All in all, quite a good answering of questions, though my own question of, "Did Severus care a great deal for Dumbledore? Was Dumbledore like a father figure to Severus?" was not answered.

Oh, and Rowling confirmed that because Severus had basically skipped out, he didn't warrant a portrait according to the school. But she said Harry would see to it that he got one later on! She basically made it Harry's job to spread the word that he may have been a royal jerk, but he did great things!

Laura Trego: Was the absence of snapes portrait in the headmasters office in the last scene innocent or deliberate

J.K. Rowling: It was deliberate. Snape had effectively abandoned his post before dying, so he had not merited inclusion in these august circles. However, I like to think that Harry would be instrumental in ensuring that Snape's portrait would appear there in due course.

Lechicaneuronline: Do you think snape is a hero

J.K. Rowling: Yes, I do; though a very flawed hero. An anti-hero, perhaps. He is not a particularly likeable man in many ways. He remains rather cruel, a bully, riddled with bitterness and insecurity - and yet he loved, and showed loyalty to that love and, ultimately, laid down his life because of it. That's pretty heroic!

Annie: Does the wizarding world now know that snape was dumbledores man, or do they still think he did a bunk

J.K. Rowling: Harry would ensure that Snape's heroism was known.Of course, that would not stop Rita Skeeter writing 'Snape: Scoundrel or Saint?'

Nithya: Lily detested mulciber,averyif snape really loved her,why didnt he sacrifice their company for her sake

J.K. Rowling: Well, that is Snape's tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive.He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.

Full transcript: http://community.livejournal.com/spoil_me_dh/479109.html#cutid1


I supposed she caved in to the Snape supporters views on heroism...

Then maybe you haven't loved and lost. And if you have, I doubt you are completely unloved and without family/friends. Whatever.

ouch.... keep it nice! no need to make personal assumptions!

Oh, definitely. But I think that is as it should have been. Snape's greatest sacrifice was not his death, but his life, so it is fitting that the story of his life overshadowed his death.Very true. Snape's tragedy was how he lived, not how he died. I suppose although his death was rather bleak and uneventful his life and the story we would soon receive was much more interesting and eventful. At the time of his death, on page, we are supposed to assume that he was still working for Voldemort, so Harry wouldn't cry over his corpse, it just wasn't going to happen.

I thought Snape's death scene was wonderful. It would have been sort of corny to give him a glorious hero's death to make up for the sad and difficult life JKR dealt him... his story is the most poignant and touching out of all the ones in the series (to me, anyway) and the tone of his death scene is exactly in keeping with it. And the fact that Harry - the boy he went to such great lengths to protect because he was Lily's son but whom he also couldn't stand because he was so like James - is the last person he sees is very fitting too, bittersweet and very moving... I loved it!

Alas JKR seems incapable of dealing with complicated characters that are also not among her favorites.

More than that I am angry with JKR. ( I think anger is one of the stages of grief) I really feel that JKR changed her mind about Snape between the end of HBP and the start of DH. She changed something. The gaps in the story. Something just felt off when I read it. I guess it is hard to explain.

I agree. I've had the same feeling that she tried to turn down all the attention focused on Snape at the end of HBP. In Bloomsbury Live Chat that's just finished JKR said finally something about Snape's heroism, but I have the impression that she doesn't really understand the character she created. Snape is probably the most tragic figure in the whole series (for me at least), but she almost diminishes his role. I suppose that Jo doesn't really like Snape (he was created after an horrible teacher JKR had, she said), and most of all, that she disagrees to the fact that there is so much Snape fandom around.

But she still says he's a horrible, evil person.

Edit: Sorry, this is in response to her online interview. This site is being oddly slow for me right now....

I really, really missed having more quality time with Snape in DH, but ah that is the way of things.

I mainly disliked his death scene because it was so sudden and strange - his head sucked into a magic bubble then killed by a snake. o.O I'm definately with the camp that insists Snape deserved a more heroic 'death scene'.

The part that saddened me was the fact that NOW that his honorable actions would be known by all he was dead and couldn't reap the rewards of a hero. -_- Very heart-wrenching thing there, since Snape had an even more miserable existance than we'd realized prior to DH.

RIP Severus Snape <3

I really, really missed having more quality time with Snape in DH, but ah that is the way of things.

I mainly disliked his death scene because it was so sudden and strange - his head sucked into a magic bubble then killed by a snake. o.O I'm definately with the camp that insists Snape deserved a more heroic 'death scene'.

The part that saddened me was the fact that NOW that his honorable actions would be known by all he was dead and couldn't reap the rewards of a hero. -_- Very heart-wrenching thing there, since Snape had an even more miserable existance than we'd realized prior to DH.

RIP Severus Snape <3
I think a lot of Snape's misery was partially his own fault. He never really attempted to make the best of things, did he?

boy, i thought i wouldn´t post again. but here i go.

I hoped that Snape and Harry somehow came to peace with each other. And I think that Snape recognized that harry was more Lily´s son that James`s.
I wonder if he started to care about harry, the pensieve scene suggested that but in the live chat Jo said he had not. (maybe she meant it had never been a question for snape if he wasn´t in love with Lily).
I´m a bit confused, because in the interview she said that snape is not a hero but in the chat she said he was. So what?
I can accept that he was confused at first when Voldemort only slashed into the air with his wand, not realising at once what happened. But when Volds hissed in parsel that could have been a warning and usually snape reacted very quickly. maybe he realised there was no chance againts volds and nagini.

I was content with the way he died. I´m sure he realised what Voldemort was playing at and still he remained calm and tried to do the job Dumbledore gave him. he didn´t trie to buy his life with revealing the truth about harry beeing the seventh horcrux to volds.
And it was very original by jo to kill him off with nagini.

And hell, snape was brave! Danggling from voldemort´s arm for most of the time knowing that should he show the slightest sign of pity to any victim or show anger when the term mudblood was used he would be dead. The scene where the mugglestudies teacher was killed was the hardest to read for me.

I think a lot of Snape's misery was partially his own fault. He never really attempted to make the best of things, did he?

True it was his own actions that placed him where he was in everyones minds, but getting out from under the shadow of who you are is nearly impossible for most people it seems... change comes in minute degrees, if at all. He'd spent years building who he was as a death eater, potential still-loyal member after LV was nearly destroyed by Harry... and it was because no one knew the truth of what he was doing. As Dumbledore said "Never tell anyone about the best part of you?"

I just thought it was sad, that he'd never be present when everyone found out what he'd really been risking and trying to protect all those years. Dealing with those who had believed Harry that he'd been the one to 'murder' Dumbledore would have been torture for him.

I don't think Snape needed the community acceptance when he was older. He obviously didn't care too much, as he was completely evil to everyone. Even most Death Eaters. I mean, come on, Neville's greatest fear was Snape. That's horrible! So I don't think Snape would have missed terribly everyone's reaction that he was trying to save Harry for Lily. Harry knowing and it eventually getting out was enough for him.

As I posted on the previous page, if one saw the Dateline interview, you saw that Rowling spoke more about Snape than what was shown during the The Today Show bits. The interview was edited around so that it seemed Rowling really hates Snape, but then the rest of the Dateline interview showed other parts where she said she thinks he is a hero in a way, but that he's not someone she wishes everyone to glorify and look up to because he was so horrible. Instead, she admits what he did was heroic, but that his faults were so great that it's hard to celebrate him.

During the chat, Rowling still seemed disinclined to want to celebrate him as some do, but she admitted that she does consider him a hero, but an anti-hero, someone you really shouldn't support but you do. She is aware he is complicated, she wrote him! Rowling just wants to remind people that Severus Snape is not a role model. She tells everyone that what made him "Good" was basically that he was very much capable of love and harbored deep regrets about his choices, and would have done things differently if given the chance. That is the best of Severus. But the worst of Severus is what he was like to everyone else besides Lily and Dumbledore.

I think everyone wants to hear from Rowling that she thinks he's so amazing and her best character, etc. etc. but she's not going to go on about him. She answered plenty of questions about him, including the portrait question. She basically says it is Harry's duty to spread the word that Severus was a good guy in the end, and Harry would get his portrait put into the headmaster's office because the school recognized Snape as fleeing the school. Also, Rowling compared Harry to Snape in that Harry is not a saint but he still has good in him, just a heck of a lot more than Snape ever showed. But Rowling isn't going to make him into an idol or something.

She also said that Severus' grooming skills were not great because he didn't value vanity like that. She said he valued other qualities in himself.

I don't think Snape needed the community acceptance when he was older. He obviously didn't care too much, as he was completely evil to everyone.

I could not disagree more. The text suggests (and if you are a fan of interview comments, they confirm) that a desire for acceptance was a reason Snape joined the Death Eaters. A need for that does not go away overnight, but Snape spent a year working with people who were in his own side who despised him as a traitor and a murderer with noone but portraits for company. That had to be hard.

Also, when he gave Harry his memories, he did so in the expectation that Harry was shortly going to die himself. So posthumous public vindication could not have been his motive for providing them. It was a personal thing between him and Harry.

I know Rowling says he loathed Harry; I will not argue with that point here. But it is possible to feel an obligation/desire to explain oneself even to a person one does not like.

Snape's tragedy was how he lived, not how he died. I suppose although his death was rather bleak and uneventful his life and the story we would soon receive was much more interesting and eventful. At the time of his death, on page, we are supposed to assume that he was still working for Voldemort, so Harry wouldn't cry over his corpse, it just wasn't going to happen.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

I've always been a fan of Snape. I truly believed he was good and working for Dumbledore, and I was a big supporter of the "Snape loved Lily" theory. I honestly think Jo killed him off in the right way... BEFORE Harry knew the truth. It makes his death, but more so his life that much more tragic.

I personal would have hated a heroic death scene for Snape. I disliked the idea that Snape was going to "save the day" and I honestly could never see Snape truly being forgiven unless Harry would have witnessed Snape's memories.

I thought it was done perfectly... but that doesn't make it any less sad...:sad:

I could not disagree more. The text suggests (and if you are a fan of interview comments, they confirm) that a desire for acceptance was a reason Snape joined the Death Eaters. A need for that does not go away overnight, but Snape spent a year working with people who were in his own side who despised him as a traitor and a murderer with noone but portraits for company. That had to be hard.

Also, when he gave Harry his memories, he did so in the expectation that Harry was shortly going to die himself. So posthumous public vindication could not have been his motive for providing them. It was a personal thing between him and Harry.

I know Rowling says he loathed Harry; I will not argue with that point here. But it is possible to feel an obligation/desire to explain oneself even to a person one does not like.
That's exactly what I said. When he was older (ie not when he was a Death Eater).
He gave the memories for between him and Harry, not the greater wizarding world. Knowing it would come out was enough, he didn't need the pomp and circumstance.

I have mixed feelings on Snape's death...
First I felt he had to die, a teacher who killed the headmaster could never re-join society. I also felt Harry would have to re-evaluate his feelings for Snape in the end... I knew somehow Snape would help/save Harry...

That said, I think it was abit... abrupt! I expected more drama, Jo had built Snape up in book six as one of the best characters ever! Was he good or evil... so much intrigue!! He had such a small part to play in book seven.
And a quick death. The pensive part was good, but I expected more out of his actual death. Though, I like the element of Voldemort killing him in the way he did, personal gain...

I really guess I can't complain too much about his death. He did get a whole chapter about him and a book too when ya think about it. What get's me is he never got the chance to relay those memories and what not to Harry while while he was alive. I wish Harry had seen him in the Forest of Dean with the Patronus. I think Harry would have given him the benifit of the doubt.

Oh well...

R.I.P.

:no:I was REALLY upset about the way Snape died. I think JK missed the mark, it was crappy the way he died, I alwas thought Snape was REALLY GOOD in Legilimens and would be able to read Voldys mind, so he should have seen it coming and gotten out of there. Also, I was more upset that after all the fighting was over that Harry, Hermione and Ron did not go to the Shreeking Shack to retrieve Snapes body!! That was so disrespectful, Snapes body should have been brought to the school to lay with everyone elses. Another thing was it would have been nice if when Harry was in "limbo" talking to Dumbledore, Shape was present also, and could have talked to Harry, it would have been nice to hear Harry apoligize to Snape for thinking Snape was a traitor. I just finished listening to the CD of the book on Saturday night and I'm still recovering from the shock of Snapes Death. I always knew he was one of the good guys!!

mbd09 says "I know Rowling says he loathed Harry; I will not argue with that point here. But it is possible to feel an obligation/desire to explain oneself even to a person one does not like."

Wait a minute!! In the Chapter where Harry is in the Pensive, looking at Snapes memories, isn't there one part where Dumbledore makes a statement that Snape loves Harry? I'm gonna have to go find it, but I swear thats what I heard. Page 687, I'm mistaken, Snape still loves Lilly, Dumbledore,"After all this time?" "Always" said Snape. My mistake, he's just ****** that they've been raising Harry like a pig for slaughter.

Outraged ! one word to describe how i felt about Snapes death !
Severus Snape...killer of Albus Dumbledore the greatest wizard of the generation, had a book named for him, Everyone was confused about where his trust lied, was snape good or evil ? No one knew and I was expecting Snape to be one of the MAIN characters and not some guy who gets killed by a snake that has not much importance besides being a horcrux !

Snape in my opinion was an extremely powerful wizard and I expected MUCH MUCH more from his character in the DH....

By far the biggest let down of the book.

I dont think he was treated as an unimportant character, Voldemort killed him personally. I also think it was written very well, and I had a lump in my throat when JK described the 'light' in his eyes going out.

Snape needed to die - I was quite sure about it all the way.
The kid in me wanted him to die heroically on the battlefield, but I guess the way it happened made much more sense. He lived in the background of the fighting lot and died in the background of the fighting lot; still, he gave more to the cause than many of the wand-waving people on the Hogwart's grounds.

I was thinking about it and came to a conclusion that Snape never suspected Dark Lord could finish his most valuable servant at that point of the war, this way and for such a stupid reason. I truly believe that this book showed Snape as a human being, who after all estimates others after himself - a mistake, considering the unhuman features of Voldemorts character.

He sort of "trusted" in Voldemort again - and again, as the time he asked him to spare Lily, he was painfully disappointed, and the consequences were tragic. Voldemort didn't value anyone so high to spare them.

Outraged ! one word to describe how i felt about Snapes death !
Severus Snape...killer of Albus Dumbledore the greatest wizard of the generation, had a book named for him, Everyone was confused about where his trust lied, was snape good or evil ? No one knew and I was expecting Snape to be one of the MAIN characters and not some guy who gets killed by a snake that has not much importance besides being a horcrux !

Snape in my opinion was an extremely powerful wizard and I expected MUCH MUCH more from his character in the DH....

By far the biggest let down of the book.

Quoted for the ULTIMATE truth.