Severus Snape's Death

Alot of readers felt the same way. Mainly due to how out of chararcter the whole scene was. How could one of the most powerful wizard be killed by a snake? How could the Potions Master bleed to death? The inventor of so many spells even before they had graduated Hogwarts. How could someone so supressed by Voldemort, who lost so much and lived the rest of their life as a spy just die without a fight? Just die without revealing themselves to Voldemort. Made to kill the only one who ever trusted him.

And to add insult to injury, Harry didn't express any emotions after the revelations of one he loathed so intensely had loved his mother until his end. There was no mention of the body being recovered and Hogwarts did not deem him worthy of a portrait after all he had sacrificed.

No wonder readers are furious.

Well, what should Snape have done? Seeing Nagini under protection he must have realized, the moment to tell Harry the truth had come. But then Voldemort acted too fast for him - Snape was powerful, but Voldemort more so.

Harry had other things on his mind after seeing Snape's memories - there was this little problem of him having to die to destroy the horcrux.

There is no mention of Snape's body beeing recovered because there is no chapter describing the clean-up of Hogwarts the day after the battle.

As JKR said in the interview, there probably was a portrait of Snape later on.
What I ask myself is, will posthumous portraits have the same magical properties as those taken when the person was still alive?

Why such an intense reaction? I think it illustrated a lot of the themes that have been running through the books - Voldemort's complete lack of loyalty/respect for anyone else, and the inevitability of death, for example.
For you and the other person who asked a similar question:

Like I have stated, I did not find that Snape or other certain characters had to die at all. The themes you mentioned could have been illustrated as you say, in numerous other ways and/or with other characters. In fact, before that event those themes were already abundantly clear to me.

It felt as though the character was killed off purely as an easy way out of writing additional story. Had the story been written where Snape had survived, however, it would have been much richer and encompassed more and deeper things due to what would naturally follow. As it is, I find that Snapes death detracted as least as much as his survival could have given to the story.

Well, what should Snape have done? Seeing Nagini under protection he must have realized, the moment to tell Harry the truth had come. But then Voldemort acted too fast for him - Snape was powerful, but Voldemort more so.

I don't think Snape should have done anything. The author has the power to set and manipulate the circumstances. The whole Shrieking Shack scene was a literary convenience. It shouted it. It was evident that the author was restricted in the way she could convey the Prince's story.

And Voldemort being more powerful than Snape, that is highly debatable.


Harry had other things on his mind after seeing Snape's memories - there was this little problem of him having to die to destroy the horcrux.

There is no mention of Snape's body beeing recovered because there is no chapter describing the clean-up of Hogwarts the day after the battle.
I agree, but three hours later, after destroying Voldmeort and talking to Albus's portrait he wants to go to bed and wonders if Kreacher could bring him a sandwich? Shouldn't he have retrieved Snape's body? Does he not owe it to the man who lived a life in which no one trusted him, and all this was done to protect Harry, in memory of Lily. He had loved the boy's mother. Is that not a massive revelation from a man he had loathed.


As JKR said in the interview, there probably was a portrait of Snape later on.
What I ask myself is, will posthumous portraits have the same magical properties as those taken when the person was still alive?

The author can say all she likes after the book has been written, but it will not change what the readers perceive. She is as much a critic of her own work as we are. What's written is written. Snape received no portrait and Harry didn't realize that at the time.

I don't think Snape should have done anything. The author has the power to set and manipulate the circumstances. The whole Shrieking Shack scene was a literary convenience. It shouted it. It was evident that the author was restricted in the way she could convey the Prince's story.

And Voldemort being more powerful than Snape, that is highly debatable.

Well, in destructive power Voldemort was without doubt more powerful than Snape.

I agree, but three hours later, after destroying Voldmeort and talking to Albus's portrait he wants to go to bed and wonders if Kreacher could bring him a sandwich? Shouldn't he have retrieved Snape's body? Does he not owe it to the man who lived a life in which no one trusted him, and all this was done to protect Harry, in memory of Lily. He had loved the boy's mother. Is that not a massive revelation from a man he had loathed.


Harry was at that point to tired to think about cleanup duty. That might seem callous, but Harry wanting nothing more than rest and a sandwich is perfectly understandable.

Also, while Harry respected Snape for his courage, this would not have undone all the cruelties Snape had inflicted on him. So Harry had a great deal of respect for him now, but that doesn't mean he liked him.

The author can say all she likes after the book has been written, but it will not change what the readers perceive. She is as much a critic of her own work as we are. What's written is written. Snape received no portrait and Harry didn't realize that at the time.

Well, I'm not that fussed about it. I find Snape a fascinating, but not likable, character.

Alot of readers felt the same way. Mainly due to how out of chararcter the whole scene was. How could one of the most powerful wizard be killed by a snake? How could the Potions Master bleed to death? The inventor of so many spells even before they had graduated Hogwarts. How could someone so supressed by Voldemort, who lost so much and lived the rest of their life as a spy just die without a fight? Just die without revealing themselves to Voldemort. Made to kill the only one who ever trusted him.

And to add insult to injury, Harry didn't express any emotions after the revelations of one he loathed so intensely had loved his mother until his end. There was no mention of the body being recovered and Hogwarts did not deem him worthy of a portrait after all he had sacrificed.

No wonder readers are furious.
Excellently put.

Well, what should Snape have done? Seeing Nagini under protection he must have realized, the moment to tell Harry the truth had come. But then Voldemort acted too fast for him - Snape was powerful, but Voldemort more so.
The problem is not that Voldemort killed Snape, the problem is the scene is utterly implausible. Firstly, Voldemort is familiar with Snape's affinity with potions, but still thinks that death by poison would be foolproof. Does he not recall Arthur Weasley recovering from Nagini's attack? Secondly, if he needs Snape dead, why leave before making sure he is, in fact, dead? To give him time to heal his wounds and drink some antidote? I understand that Voldemort is arrogant, and that Rowling needed Snape to live long enough to pass on his memories, but this transcends deus ex machina well into the territory of careless, nonsensical writing.

Like I have stated, I did not find that Snape or other certain characters had to die at all. The themes you mentioned could have been illustrated as you say, in numerous other ways and/or with other characters. In fact, before that event those themes were already abundantly clear to me.

It felt as though the character was killed off purely as an easy way out of writing additional story. Had the story been written where Snape had survived, however, it would have been much richer and encompassed more and deeper things due to what would naturally follow. As it is, I find that Snapes death detracted as least as much as his survival could have given to the story.

It is true that the themes mentioned could have been illustrated in other ways. But what about the Elder Wand storyline? Voldemort's foremost desire throughout the whole book was to possess the Elder Wand. Once he had gained it, and it did not show any extraordinary capabilities, he realised that he needed to kill Snape, and so did. Is there any other way in which this could have been written to avoid Voldemort killing Snape? I don't think we can speculate about disarming, as Voldemort's character clearly indicates that he would not hesitate to kill and would want to ensure that he fully possessed the wand's power.

If he had survived, what part do you envisage he would have played in the aftermath? He still disliked Harry intensely, and I think that would have cluttered the ending unnecessarily had he played a part in it. Also, what would Snape ever have been able to say to persuade Harry that he was trustworthy and that he should listen to him? Harry had no choice but to believe the memories, but I think he would have found it incredibly difficult to believe if Snape had just told him.



The problem is not that Voldemort killed Snape, the problem is the scene is utterly implausible. Firstly, Voldemort is familiar Snape's affinity with potions, but still thinks that death by poison him would be foolproof. Does he not recall Arthur Weasley recovering from Nagini's attack? Secondly, if he needs Snape dead, why leave before making sure he is, in fact, dead? To give him time to heal his wounds and drink some antidote? I understand that Voldemort is arrogant, and that Rowling needed Snape to live long enough to pass on his memories, but this transcends deus ex machina well into the territory of careless, nonsensical writing.

I think it was more death by a gaping wound to the neck than death by poison. As I recall, the only thing we've heard about the poison is that it keeps the wound open. Snape died within minutes of the attack, how would he have been able to do anything for himself? I think he was way beyond healing his wounds and drinking some antidote (where would he have got that??).

I think it was more death by a gaping wound to the neck than death by poison. As I recall, the only thing we've heard about the poison is that it keeps the wound open. Snape died within minutes of the attack, how would he have been able to do anything for himself? I think he was way beyond healing his wounds and drinking some antidote (where would he have got that??).
From Half-Blood Prince, we know he is very adept at healing. He is also the potions master who spends a lot of time around Voldemort's pet snake. Surely he would have kept something at his person?

Either way, Voldemort should have stuck around to make sure he was actually dead.

However, to keep the fun of the "maybe he's alive" theory going.... we can all remember that in the first book Snape told his students that he could even teach them how to make a potion to "stopper death". :)

I'm glad you mentioned this! I'm re reading SS and this jumped out at me..I guess no one was paying attention the day he taught this ;)..I never doubted that he did indeed die but alot of great theories for the opposite!!

Harry was at that point to tired to think about cleanup duty. That might seem callous, but Harry wanting nothing more than rest and a sandwich is perfectly understandable.

Well, I don't understand how he could feel that way after all he had been through. How is it that Harry can feel so distant, so unattached with what has just happened. It is emphasized throughout the books that he is an emotional person. None of his feelings he has towards Snape after the memories is included in the book. The reader is shocked yet Harry isn't? We are supposed to be looking through his viewpoint. He doesn't even tell someone to get the body. That is very disturbing. So for him to just want a sandwich without grieving or going to bury bodies is out of chararcter.

Also, after 'Moody's death' we get the impression that in the wizarding world there is importance in retrieving bodies and burying them as soon as possible. Shouldn't Harry have been responsible for this task? For retrieving Snape's body?

Shouldn't Harry have been responsible for this task? For retrieving Snape's body?

No doubt he did, later, but at that time I'm pretty sure he was probably just a litle pre-occupied with the whole kill-voldemort-save-the-world thing.

From Half-Blood Prince, we know he is very adept at healing. He is also the potions master who spends a lot of time around Voldemort's pet snake. Surely he would have kept something at his person?

Either way, Voldemort should have stuck around to make sure he was actually dead.

I am pretty sure that given an oportunity, Snape would have been capable of healing the wound, but when Mr. Weasley was in the hospital it took the healers quite a while to figure out an antidote and they had to give him a potion to regenerate blood every hour in the meantime, so that antidote may be harder to come by than something Severus would just cook up and keep on him at all times, just in case. Also, why would Snape carry an antidote like that if he had one? LV would find that very suspicious and let's face it, Snape probably wouldn't have expected the snake to be used as the MOD (method of destruction) by LV. More likely he would have prepared to duel LV if he were discovered as a spy and expected an AK curse. Snape was very smart, but anticipating this particular attack would require more information than Snape had. LV probably should have stayed there to be sure, but the wounds were fatal and LV was pretty excited to try out his new wand.

Well, I don't understand how he could feel that way after all he had been through. How is it that Harry can feel so distant, so unattached with what has just happened. It is emphasized throughout the books that he is an emotional person. None of his feelings he has towards Snape after the memories is included in the book. The reader is shocked yet Harry isn't?

I'm sure Harry was shocked, however, whilst delving into Snape's memories he found out he must be killed by Voldemort. I think that may have detracted any thought of Snape.

We are supposed to be looking through his viewpoint. He doesn't even tell someone to get the body. That is very disturbing. So for him to just want a sandwich without grieving or going to bury bodies is out of chararcter.

I'm sure he did. Harry did have time with the dead bodies before he went off to Dumbledore's office and as you said wanted a sandwich. He sat in the Great Hall with the survivors and saw everyone grieving. He was upset himself, but after such a tragic event he did feel detached emotionally.

Also with Snape's body. Ron and Hermione were also there to witness Snape's death. I'm sure either of them told someone about what had happened. Or perhaps later on they went to retrieve the body.

I ws and still am really sad he died. i do think it was necessary though , as I dont think he would have told Harry any of that information about his persoanl feelings. I do think he could have died in a "better way" if there is one?! it seemed to be quite quickly. I was gutted.

I'm sure Harry was shocked,

I'm sure he did.

Also with Snape's body. Ron and Hermione were also there to witness Snape's death. I'm sure either of them told someone about what had happened. Or perhaps later on they went to retrieve the body.

Those are your beliefs and assumptions. It wasn't in the book, therefore it did not happen. The Prince's body was left in the shack where he was almost killed, by a prank gone wrong all those years ago.

Those are your beliefs and assumptions. It wasn't in the book, therefore it did not happen. The Prince's body was left in the shack where he was almost killed, by a prank gone wrong all those years ago.

Actually, if you stop to think about it, it's also an assumption to assume that no one retrieved the body. Just because every single plot detail wasn't spelled out in writing, doesn't mean that it "didn't" happen. We just aren't told what happened. It's nuanced, but it is different than what you said.

She only went into detail of the plot/story at hand (ie harry defeating voldemort). Any other detail was a "nice to have" but not a "needed to have". If she had addressed every "nice to have" detail, the book would have been 2000 pages long.

Those are your beliefs and assumptions. It wasn't in the book, therefore it did not happen. The Prince's body was left in the shack where he was almost killed, by a prank gone wrong all those years ago.

I'm not sure this reasoning is logical. Harry's job wasn't in the book but JKR has told us he was an Auror - I don't think anyone would argue with that. Without canon on this, no-one can say for certain what happened. It's not correct to say that his body was retrieved, but equally you can't say that his body was just left there indefinitely.

Edit: DDsHouseElf - you got there before me! That was the point I was trying to make.

Edit: DDsHouseElf - you got there before me! That was the point I was trying to make.

Awesome... Great minds think alike :lol:

Since Harry informed everyone of Snape's bravery and how he had been Dumbledore's man all along, I would think that someone would go retrieve his body. If Harry honored Snape enough to name his son Albus Severus, it would be reasonable to assume that the body wasn't left to rot in the Shrieking Shack. The most important thing was not what happened to the body, but what happened to the memory of Snape's life.

Those are your beliefs and assumptions. It wasn't in the book, therefore it did not happen. The Prince's body was left in the shack where he was almost killed, by a prank gone wrong all those years ago.

Gracious. Think of all the meals they missed and discomfort they suffered never going potty because it wasn't mentioned! :lol:

Sorry, that was a bit mean, but it emphasizes the point that a lack of information is just that - a lack of information.

Personally, I'm not convinced Snape's death was necessary. I do believe that the Penseive method (or, had Harry been moderately accomplished at Legilimency that would have worked too) was the only way Snape could have given Harry the knowledge that Harry needed without Harry being so biased by his hatred for Snape that he would have dismissed it as horse hockey. But that could have been done without Snape's death.

However, I'm not convinced that Snape could have truly fit the mold of the tragic hero without his death. By dying, the reader (and characters) can speculate that all Snape's apparent character defaults were part of the act. Had Snape remained alive and was still a jerk, that would have tarnished the tragic hero image I think JKR was trying to give.

Plus, he gets more props for not being around to collect all the apologies that were due to him.

And to add insult to injury, Harry didn't express any emotions after the revelations of one he loathed so intensely had loved his mother until his end. There was no mention of the body being recovered and Hogwarts did not deem him worthy of a portrait after all he had sacrificed.


I did not feel that way - in fact, the triumphant way Harry revealed Snape's true story to Voldemort in the end (which must have felt like slapping Voldie in the face with his words) and the fact that he named one of his sons after him make me think he cared a lot about those revelations.

Do you believe it was necessary?
Well, when he first died i was like happy because I still thought that snape was the bad guy for killing dumbledore, but even though i wasn't to happy about his death i do believe it was necessary because harry would not have understood how loyal snape really was to dumbledore and to his mother. I also think that if Snape had not died, Harry would have never received the memory from him and would have never gotten to see that Snape was actually a good guy in the end.

Did you see it coming?
Yes I did. Knowing voldemort I knew that he would do anything to gain power of the elder wand to kill harry even if it meant killing snape, the "owner" of the wand.

What did you think about how he died?
I thought it was kind of sad that he died from the snake bite. I would have preffered to see him die during the battle fighting, like most of the other characters did.

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still? I am still in total shock. I would have never expected Snape to be a good guy in the end. Even though Dumbledore did trust him, I though that it was far too difficult for Snape to be on Voldemorts side and Dumbledore's side at the same time. I am also sad that he died. I would have liked to the see the relationship between harry and snape after harry knew that snape really did care for him and wanted to protect him.

I personally like the "bad" characters, even though he didnt turn out to be so in the end, I loved Draco as you can all tell by my username and Lucius was always an interest to me

Do you believe it was necessary? Yes I do, as he was unhappy with his life without Lily, however on the other hand he could have told Harry everything or shown him the memories whilst he was living and then become a father figure to him

Did you see it coming? No way!

What did you think about how he died? Awful, he should have died saving Harry for Lily's honour

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still? In shock and sad :no: he was one of the best characters in my opnion

And to add insult to injury, Harry didn't express any emotions after the revelations of one he loathed so intensely had loved his mother until his end. There was no mention of the body being recovered and Hogwarts did not deem him worthy of a portrait after all he had sacrificed.

Jo said in an interview that Harry was doing everything he could to put the portrait of Snape in Hogwarts. And for the "no mention of the body being recoverd", well there are a lot of things we still don't know after the battle was over

Do you believe it was necessary?
Yes, he couldn't ended up being a hero if he hadn't died. Yes he would have been 5 days recolecting apollogies, but he still had the image of the one who took off George's ear, and been horrible and acted like a git to everyone except for some students in his own house.

Did you see it coming?
Yes, but didn't know when, and the book was finishing and he wasn't dying!

What did you think about how he died?
I don't know really. It was kind of silly, but he must have been in terrible shock (thinking he had faild Dumblodre's order of informing Harry he was a Horcrux) or maybe he knew Harry was watching and had no other way.

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?
I was in so much shock i had to reread that page 3 times. No i'm not happy he died, but he had to

This thread is so that you may discuss your reaction to Severus Snape's death.

Do you believe it was necessary?
Yes, it was necessary plotwise. Voldy considered Snape's death necessary in order to become Master of the Elder Wand.

Sorry, Snapey old chap. :relax:

i was sad when i found out how sad his life was, but it made me feel good that harry felt he was actually a good person who just had a bad life.

Do you believe it was necessary?
I think it was because that makes him more of a hero and his life more meaningful. He finally dies at the hand of someone evil. LV thinks he is loyal to him and shows us even more that he doesnt care about him. It also added to the drama of the book what with the love plot and everything. I dont really know how to explain this haha but everyone else is saying what i am trying to anyway.

Did you see it coming?
not at all, in the way that it happend. I did predict him to die but differently.

What did you think about how he died?
It was a strange cruel way to die.

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?
I was and still am in shock from it. It happened so unexpectly and I was unsure what happened. I still am lost on how he died to begin with because I remember a cage falling, not a snake bite. But him just dieing and the way he died is upsetting. I couldnt stand the guy and hated his guts but now I feel sorry for him, so now I am all depressed by his death haha.

He deserved more than to die by the hands of Voldemort in that way. But then again, I'm happy that he died. I mean he had to see the woman he loved for so long marry another guy, then be killed because of the prophecy he told Voldemort. He probably would have lived in agony knowing that it was his fault she died, and secondly, having to watch Harry grow up must have been hard. Just the thought that maybe if he hadn't called her a mudblood things would have been different. Plus, can you imagine how people would have treated him if he survived? Even though Harry would have told everyone Snape was really Dumbledore's man, I think it's better his suffering ended where it did.

Do you believe it was necessary?
Yes it made the reader feel even more sorry for Snape's character.

Did you see it coming?
Yes but I thought it would be in a more dramatic way.

What did you think about how he died?
Disapointed. Not because he died but the way he died.
And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?
Sad because it was such a easy way for him to die. I actually thought it would turn out Snape knew his fate before his meeting with Voldemont and had drank some sort of powerful poison to kill Nagini.

I do think his death was heroic! I bet Snape knew almost from the beginning why Voldemort had called him for. From the moment Voldemort spoke about the elder wand he saw it coming. He didn't run away, he didn't tell Voldemort Draco had disarmed Dumby before he killed him ( and i bet snape had figured out he wasn't the elder wand 's master). For me, he died almost the way Lily did, he protected Draco so Dumbledore's sacrifice wasn't in vain.
Sure he took his wand out, but i think at that moment severus was more concerned by the act that Harry never would have known the whole plan if he was to die there.

Even though Severus was my favorite character, he had to die. It is very sad and i cried a lot. "The path of redemption" I couldn't see any other way for him to make amend, for him and for the others. If he had live, he would still have to carry his burden, he killed the only person he ever loved, i even wonder how he managed to live with that for 17 years.
I tried to imagine how it would have been if he had survived:
harry: so all these years you loved my mother?
snape: *grunt
harry: mhmh
*long and awkward silence*
harry: sooooo, hum now voldemort is dead hum
snape: *grunt

He couldn't live, it really was necessary for him to die. I just hope that all the good things he did, did mend his soul so that he could be whole again when he went wherever he went after he died. I really hope he didn't end up like that thing crying in King's cross, he doesn't deserve that.

harry: so all these years you loved my mother?
snape: *grunt
harry: mhmh
*long and awkward silence*
harry: sooooo, hum now voldemort is dead hum
snape: *grunt
Hahahahahaha! That is hilarious! :rotfl: :lol:

And finally:

"Silence, Potter - why don't you go help my namesake with his potions homework. . . . oh, wait, that's probably not a good idea, considering your academic record."

:lol:

"Silence, Potter - why don't you go help my namesake with his potions homework. . . . oh, wait, that's probably not a good idea, considering your academic record."


:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: Howling with laughter!

I guess it was necessary. There was no way he would have ever been able to reveal his love for Lily to Harry otherwise, and it was important for Harry to know this and all that he had gone through to make sure that Voldemort was destroyed and Harry survived. I didn't see it coming the way it happened, though. I thought he would sacrifice himself in some sort of duel with Voldemore to save Harry.

I did think Snape would die in this book, but I'm totally disappointed with his death scene. I think it would have been much better to have Snape save Harry from some other Death eater or something in a more dramatic way. We would have seen a good side of Snape and then he could have given his memories to Harry anyway. I hated the way JK wrote Snape's death scene.

I am pretty sure that given an oportunity, Snape would have been capable of healing the wound, but when Mr. Weasley was in the hospital it took the healers quite a while to figure out an antidote and they had to give him a potion to regenerate blood every hour in the meantime, so that antidote may be harder to come by than something Severus would just cook up and keep on him at all times, just in case.
Arthur Weasley miraculously survived a triple attack that resulted in severe bleeding and crushed ribs. By the time the help came - which took a while considering it involved Harry relating the story to Ron, reporting to McGonagall, and being dragged to Dumbledore's office to reiterate in great detail what had happened - he should have bled to death. Snape died after about a minute. This is an inconsistency.

Also, why would Snape carry an antidote like that if he had one?
Because he is a double agent familiar with Voldemort's casual disposal of his subjects regardless of their actual loyalty.

LV would find that very suspicious
I doubt Snape would dangle a flask of antidote in front of Voldemort's face telling him what it was. He has pockets, I believe.

and let's face it, Snape probably wouldn't have expected the snake to be used as the MOD (method of destruction) by LV.
Double-edged sword. If the snake was not as yet used as a method of destruction, it is completely out of character to have Voldemort use it to kill Snape.

LV probably should have stayed there to be sure, but the wounds were fatal and LV was pretty excited to try out his new wand.
Knowing from the fourth book that Voldemort is a patient, pedantic perfectionist, I have trouble believing this explanation. If he can wait a whole year just to get Harry Potter's blood when another's would suffice, I'm sure he can wait half a minute to check if the purported owner of the wand he seeks is actually dead.

Do you believe it was necessary?

yes and no. i don't think anyone deserves to die. but he died protecting harry and he proved to be good. he died honorably in my opinion.

Did you see it coming?

yes. i knew he was gunna die. but i didn't know he was good. i was so set on hating him still. part of me still doesn't like him to tell the truth. but i didn't expect him to die the way he did.

What did you think about how he died?

he didn't deserve to die the way he did. he proved to be a hero and i would of liked it if he died quicker. poor snape.

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?

after the memory i was sad...but before it i was happy. i was in shock and still am. he turned out to be good after all. yay Snape! haha

Arthur Weasley miraculously survived a triple attack that resulted in severe bleeding and crushed ribs. By the time the help came - which took a while considering it involved Harry relating the story to Ron, reporting to McGonagall, and being dragged to Dumbledore's office to reiterate in great detail what had happened - he should have bled to death. Snape died after about a minute. This is an inconsistency.

Turns out it was indeed miraculous because Arthur was originally going to die and Jo gave him a reprieve.

Arthur Weasley miraculously survived a triple attack that resulted in severe bleeding and crushed ribs. By the time the help came - which took a while considering it involved Harry relating the story to Ron, reporting to McGonagall, and being dragged to Dumbledore's office to reiterate in great detail what had happened - he should have bled to death. Snape died after about a minute. This is an inconsistency.

Okay, but you're forgetting something important - these people are wizards. We know that magic in a witch or wizard can keep people alive for longer, and/or save their life entirely (think Neville being tested by his Great-Uncle as a kid). Snape had just recieved a deep cut to the neck - he should have died almost instantly. However, he managed to stay alive long enough to give Harry the memory, and look into Lily's eyes one last time.

The same magic that kept Snape alive long enough to do that must have been the same magic that kept Arthur alive - and, not only was Arthur's injury less serious than Snapes, he probably fought harder to stay alive. Arthur had a wife, kids, everything to live for, whereas Snape was alone, hated, and the only thing keeping him going was the knowledge that he had to give Harry his memories.

Okay, but you're forgetting something important - these people are wizards. We know that magic in a witch or wizard can keep people alive for longer, and/or save their life entirely (think Neville being tested by his Great-Uncle as a kid). Snape had just recieved a deep cut to the neck - he should have died almost instantly. However, he managed to stay alive long enough to give Harry the memory, and look into Lily's eyes one last time.

The same magic that kept Snape alive long enough to do that must have been the same magic that kept Arthur alive - and, not only was Arthur's injury less serious than Snapes, he probably fought harder to stay alive. Arthur had a wife, kids, everything to live for, whereas Snape was alone, hated, and the only thing keeping him going was the knowledge that he had to give Harry his memories.

A giant snakebite to the jugular vein would be very quickly fatal, wouldn't it?

It's an interesting idea too, that magic would increase a person's ability to fight to stay alive. In that case, once Snape had accomplished his task to give Harry the information he needed, he didn't fight death. I think the risk of dying had been with him for so long that Snape was prepared for it.

A giant snakebite to the jugular vein would be very quickly fatal, wouldn't it?

It's an interesting idea too, that magic would increase a person's ability to fight to stay alive. In that case, once Snape had accomplished his task to give Harry the information he needed, he didn't fight death. I think the risk of dying had been with him for so long that Snape was prepared for it.

I think more than prepared for it - he would have welcomed it. "I wish I were dead," he said when Lily died, until Dumbledore persuaded him that Lily would have wanted him to stay alive to help Harry, not run away. Now his tasl is completed, he gets his wish.

Do you believe it was necessary?
I didn't at first, but I do now.

Did you see it coming?
No, not at all.

What did you think about how he died?
At first I thought it was lame, then after I looked deeper into the symbolism, and what J.K. might have intended to inspire in certain readers with his death.... Then I thought it was kind of perfect.

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?Severus was my favorite character. I always believed he was on the side of good. I was at first shocked even devastated. Now I'm cool with it.

I think more than prepared for it - he would have welcomed it. "I wish I were dead," he said when Lily died, until Dumbledore persuaded him that Lily would have wanted him to stay alive to help Harry, not run away. Now his tasl is completed, he gets his wish.

i think he didn't mind dieing, i think he was quite content about it

I agree that Severus was pretty content with dying. The reason he was worried in the beginning of that scene was because he didn't think he would have a chance to give Harry his memories, which is something he really needed to do. But, when he saw that Harry was there, I think he was content with dying, because he knew that he had completed his task. He was able to go in peace- which wouldn't have been possible if he hadn't been able to give Harry his memories.

I agree that Severus was pretty content with dying. The reason he was worried in the beginning of that scene was because he didn't think he would have a chance to give Harry his memories, which is something he really needed to do. But, when he saw that Harry was there, I think he was content with dying, because he knew that he had completed his task. He was able to go in peace- which wouldn't have been possible if he hadn't been able to give Harry his memories.

ooooo i quite agree

Do you believe it was necessary?
I would have preferred him to stay alive. After Harry knows the truth, I think both of them might have had an opportunity to get to know each other better.

Did you see it coming?
No. I won't say I was definite - there was a feeling that he might die, but I thought that he would live after his innocence was proved.

What did you think about how he died?
I would've preferred him to die in a full-out battle with Lord Voldemort.

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?
I was and still am sad. Extremely so. I would have liked him to live and bond with Harry.

I agree that Severus was pretty content with dying. The reason he was worried in the beginning of that scene was because he didn't think he would have a chance to give Harry his memories, which is something he really needed to do. But, when he saw that Harry was there, I think he was content with dying, because he knew that he had completed his task. He was able to go in peace- which wouldn't have been possible if he hadn't been able to give Harry his memories.

I totally agree with you. He was quite desperate to find Harry and when the snake striked all was falling apart, Dumbledore's plan, Harry having a chance to win. But then when Harry appears it might have been a relief .

Do you believe it was necessary?
I would have preferred him to stay alive. After Harry knows the truth, I think both of them might have had an opportunity to get to know each other better.

Did you see it coming?
No. I won't say I was definite - there was a feeling that he might die, but I thought that he would live after his innocence was proved.

What did you think about how he died?
I would've preferred him to die in a full-out battle with Lord Voldemort.

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?
I was and still am sad. Extremely so. I would have liked him to live and bond with Harry.



again - i agree with all of that, i wish he had surivived but i don't think he would have been any happier. for e.g after the finial battle everyone finds loved ones or spends time with family, snape has no one! :'(

I though Snape's death was very powerful and well written. Just so unheroic, and so... true. You know, if he would have jump in front of harry when voldemort AK him or something then it would have been really kitch... this way to die, so unexpected but so possible... I just liked it.

I will always wish Snape would have had a moment of heroic glory. You know the moment when he does something selfless and brave that lets eveybody know he was good all along and that he had been the bravest of all the Order members and the truest friend to DD at Hogwarts. Having LV kill him for control of the Elder Wand and having Harry find out postumously let me down a little, but I understand the poetry in it. I just hate missing that long anticipated scene where Harry sees Snape for who he really is and can finally look at him with Lily's eyes filled with gratitude and admiration. I guess I just take solice in the epilogue where Harry, having named a son after him, says he was the bravest man he ever knew.

I will always wish Snape would have had a moment of heroic glory. You know the moment when he does something selfless and brave that lets eveybody know he was good all along and that he had been the bravest of all the Order members and the truest friend to DD at Hogwarts. Having LV kill him for control of the Elder Wand and having Harry find out postumously let me down a little, but I understand the poetry in it. I just hate missing that long anticipated scene where Harry sees Snape for who he really is and can finally look at him with Lily's eyes filled with gratitude and admiration. I guess I just take solice in the epilogue where Harry, having named a son after him, says he was the bravest man he ever knew.

At 15, I think Severus might have wished for a chance to do something showy and heroic, in hopes that it might impress Lily.

But after all is said and done, Snape couldn't have cared less whether a lot of dunderheads know he's good or not. He knew himself what he'd done and why would he do something so uncharacteristically, obnoxiously Gryffindor as to prance in and act the superhero? He just wanted to get the job done.

Snape, besides being a master of sarcasm, had an ironic turn of mind. The fact that he died because Voldemort was a dunderhead who didn't get it about the Elder Wand is incredibly ironic. As long as his job got done, I don't think Snape cared how he died, but perhaps in the afterlife, he smirked ironically. :p

I will always wish Snape would have had a moment of heroic glory. You know the moment when he does something selfless and brave that lets eveybody know he was good all along and that he had been the bravest of all the Order members and the truest friend to DD at Hogwarts. Having LV kill him for control of the Elder Wand and having Harry find out postumously let me down a little, but I understand the poetry in it .

I'm not a fan of Snape, but I do agree he got cheated out of his moment of glory. I fully expected it to come and thought he would turn against Voldemort at some point, but he went to his death outwardly in service to the Dark Lord. This always troubled me and contributed to my intense dislike for Snape. For goodness sakes, I asked myself, why didn't he reveal himself when McGonagall told him Hogwarts was under seige? What would possess him to return to Voldemort at that point? But then I realized that he didn't know whether LV was keeping Nagini at his side. And Dumbledore had given him orders for the time when Voldemort kept his snake safe.

I still don't forgive Snape for all his gratuitous bullying, but I'm appreciating him just a tad more now.

I'm not a fan of Snape, but I do agree he got cheated out of his moment of glory. I fully expected it to come and thought he would turn against Voldemort at some point, but he went to his death outwardly in service to the Dark Lord. This always troubled me and contributed to my intense dislike for Snape. For goodness sakes, I asked myself, why didn't he reveal himself when McGonagall told him Hogwarts was under seige? What would possess him to return to Voldemort at that point? But then I realized that he didn't know whether LV was keeping Nagini at his side. And Dumbledore had given him orders for the time when Voldemort kept his snake safe.

Right. It's not so much that he was cheated out of it - he did not try and take it. He had specific instructions from Dumbledore, he believed it was necessary to follow them, and he did.

Do you believe it was necessary?

I don't know if it was necessary. It could have been, cause he gave Harry those crucial memories. So, actually, I think it was.

Did you see it coming?

Well, not really. I wasn't surprised (this is Voldie we're talking about! He's loony!) but I didn't think he'd get killed off, not really. At least, not yet, maybe at the very end.

What did you think about how he died?

Death by gigantic, hidious snake: glad it wasn't me, I have a phobia of snakes! Not sure about what else I thought except it was kind of.. er, touching, Harry and Snape. Snape wanted to look at Harry before he died, in my opinion because Harry does have the same eyes as his mother, the only person Snape ever truly cared about, I'm sure.

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?

It's kinda sad. Death usually is, unless it's someone like Voldemort, but he was sort of someone I pitied too.. but anyway, I was more sad about Snape dying than happy of course, I am not that heartless. Possibly shock at him dying sooner than I expected too.

Do you believe it was necessary?
Yes, I think it was. I don't think Snape would have ever shown Harry those memories if he wasn't about to die.

Did you see it coming?
No, I didn't. For whatever reason, I never thought that Snape would die in the 7th book. He just seemed like too much of a survivor to me.

What did you think about how he died?
I know a lot of people didn't like it, but I thought his death was fitting. I really liked the "look at me" line, and he probably wouldn't have been able to say that or hand over the memories if he died in the battle -- he would've just been hit by Avada Kedavra or something and that would've been it.

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?
I'm kind of sad, but I didn't get upset when I read it for the first time. Snape was one of my favorite characters, and I liked him even more after the memories

People seem concerned with the recovery of Snape's body. I am sure that was taken care of when the rest of the recoveries were happening. There are several hours in between Voldemort's death and the "sandwich in bed" incident.

Okay.. I expected him to die, but I really thought that he would die in somewhat of a ...better way. (Though thats not really the correct word. -.-)

I thought it happened too quickly, and it was a little on the pathetic side.
Because I knew he died, but after I read it I was all '...Thats IT?'
It was a little dissapointing to me. If he had to die, couldn't his death at least have served a purpose? ... Like trying to protect someone, instead of being bitten by a snake.

To answer another one (or two..) of the topic questions, before I heard that he died I hadn't really expected it.
& it went something like 'WHAT?! Snape can't DIE!' I'm pretty sure part of my soul died when I found that out.

Then again, that was a little mixed, because a looong while ago when I heard the whole 'Jo going to kill off two characters!' bit, I was all 'Its going to Snape and Harry, I know it!' ...but honestly, I didn't really believe it would happen.

People seem concerned with the recovery of Snape's body. I am sure that was taken care of when the rest of the recoveries were happening. There are several hours in between Voldemort's death and the "sandwich in bed" incident.

I'm sure you're right, it's just too bad that his creator didn't think enough of him to mention his name along with all the other Order casualties. :upset:

I'm sure you're right, it's just too bad that his creator didn't think enough of him to mention his name along with all the other Order casualties. :upset:

Ahaha, aaaw... I'm not quite sure it was because she didn't think enough of him. I don't think thats why he wasn't mentioned later on.

I... didn't think he'll die.
He's bad in the first 6 books, and I don't think if somehow he dead, his death will cause me not much sensation.

But sadly, his death is the most heart-wrecking one for me... knowing who he really are, the real feeling he have stabbed my heart so bad.
Yes, I wish he's got better death, even this one... killed with none seeing him except Harry himself, is emotional enough.

Snape was this necessary character - I mean, every story has this up close bad guy, right? True, you have Voldemort, but Harry needed someone to bother him daily. And so you got Snape.

Mind, it was a quick death, but once you realized Snape actually had feelings - especially feelings for Harry's mom! - you came to realize you really did love the scruffy, crazed potions master.

I think that it was an odd way to die...maybe it could have been better if he'd died trying to save Harry from Voldemort in battle, but you know what, I'm satisfied.

Do you believe it was necessary?

The reason for which he died was obviously unneccesary.

Did you see it coming?

Yes, I thought the survival of Severus Snape would be pretty slim.

What did you think about how he died?

It's pretty cruel, but i also think it is one of the most poignant moments in the whole series.

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?

I am somewhat sad because Snape's life was never really a fairytale, but his last line "Look...at...me..." is definately touching.

Ahaha, aaaw... I'm not quite sure it was because she didn't think enough of him. I don't think thats why he wasn't mentioned later on.

Her post-DH comments certainly didn't sound like she has a very high opinion of him IMO, regardless of Harry naming his second son after him.

I just think she completely forgot about him -- no portrait with a very lame excuse for its absence and no body with the other departed heroes.

Imagine this:

One day HP:TNG* exploring the Hogwarts grounds as they are wont to do, stumble upon a tunnel leading into an obviously long abandoned shack. What do they find there amongst the dust and cobwebs but a skelton shrouded in rotten rags. . . .

Not reading about every time HP goes to the potty hardly compares in importance to the missing body of one of the main characters in the novels. YMMV of course.

*Harry Potter: The Next Generation

Her post-DH comments certainly didn't sound like she has a very high opinion of him IMO, regardless of Harry naming his second son after him.

I just think she completely forgot about him -- no portrait with a very lame excuse for its absence and no body with the other departed heroes.

Imagine this:

One day HP:TNG* exploring the Hogwarts grounds as they are wont to do, stumble upon a tunnel leading into an obviously long abandoned shack. What do they find there amongst the dust and cobwebs but a skelton shrouded in rotten rags. . . .

Not reading about every time HP goes to the potty hardly compares in importance to the missing body of one of the main characters in the novels. YMMV of course.

*Harry Potter: The Next Generation

I'm quite sure Snape's body was recovered the next day. There probably was a big, official event for all those killed in the fight against Voldemort, and Harry would have made sure Snape was included.

I will always wish Snape would have had a moment of heroic glory. You know the moment when he does something selfless and brave that lets eveybody know he was good all along and that he had been the bravest of all the Order members and the truest friend to DD at Hogwarts. Having LV kill him for control of the Elder Wand and having Harry find out postumously let me down a little, but I understand the poetry in it. I just hate missing that long anticipated scene where Harry sees Snape for who he really is and can finally look at him with Lily's eyes filled with gratitude and admiration. I guess I just take solice in the epilogue where Harry, having named a son after him, says he was the bravest man he ever knew.

I agree that I was expecting Snape to have some 'big' moment that would really concrete his bravery and heroism. It didn't really come, but I think that is what made the Snape story so poetic. He is not really a particularly nice character (which is understandable now seeing what he has been through in the past,) but I think it is great to see him being able to work in the background, without much recognition. He was always striving for accomplishment and a sense of belonging in his childhood, and now he humbles himself to do the right thing. This all makes Snape a rather mysterious and intriguing character. It makes me feel bad that I used to hate him!!! (I wish I had spotted his goodness earlier, like some of the other Snape Trusters)

It was a horrible death actually. I hate it. Voldemort is disgusting..If you could see Snape didn't appear much in the book. I mean Snape the real one not the memories and I didn't like that. I hoped that Harry could save him by any way but it didn't happen. Actually, I was so sad about Snape.

I would like to talk about the two most common points that people believe it was necessary to kill Snape over.

The first one is that many don't believe he could have been a hero unless he died, including Rowling herself. I very strongly disagree with this. Snape did not display anything in his death that he did not show before, like loyalty to Lily. He was already as much of a hero/anti-hero then as he was before. It is my sad opinion that Rowling took the very shortest route with this storyline and others, and killed him so that she didn't have to write anymore than she absolutely had to.

The second point people bring up is the Elder Wand confusion. This is another problem that I have with the story. Snape did not need to die over this, I believe it was just another excuse to kill him off and avoid writing additional story, this time concerning Draco Malfoy. Not only could it have been handled differently, the alternatives just makes a heck of a lot more sense.

The death-eaters saw that Draco, not Snape, disarmed Dumbledore. Harry remembered Draco ready to turn at the Astronomy Tower, where it was actually mentioned to Draco that his death could be faked. It seems logical that that would be followed up in the next book, and Harry still could have won the fight. I can and will elaborate, but that is for other topics which im sure people already brought up.

Overall, I believe Snape dying was just not necessary. Rowling simply did not like the character(s), and did not want to write more than was needed in her eyes. That is all in my opinion, and I do find it rather insulting.

I'm quite sure Snape's body was recovered the next day. There probably was a big, official event for all those killed in the fight against Voldemort, and Harry would have made sure Snape was included.

Yes, we're all free to imagine anything we want, but for some reason the author chose not to write it! It wouldn't have added any more that a paragraph, would it?:grumble:

BTW it shouldn't be necessary for Harry to have to do all this persuading for Severus do get his due, the missing portrait, etc. :grumble: again!!

Yes, we're all free to imagine anything we want, but for some reason the author chose not to write it! It wouldn't have added any more that a paragraph, would it?:grumble:

BTW it shouldn't be necessary for Harry to have to do all this persuading for Severus do get his due, the missing portrait, etc. :grumble: again!!

From a writer's point of view, there are good reasons all these things weren't put in DH in another chapter. This chapter (in my head, I it's title is "Loose Ends" :-) ), would have to contain the following points:

- The recovery of Snape's body.
- Repairing Hogwarts
- The big funeral for all the people that died fighting Voldemort.
- For Snape to be honoured, Harry would have to explain a lot - the few words during the duel with Voldemort would IMO not be enough to convince everbody Snape wasn't a villain.
- Harry explaining to the Weaslys, the teachers, the Order and the DA all about Voldemort and the Horcruxes.
- Harry and Ginny getting together again.

While I would have liked to read about this, all these things would not have given us new information or shown any character development. In other words, it would have been superfluous and possibly even boring. That's why JKR didn't include such a chapter in DH. (I would, however, love to see it in the upcoming enceclopedia...)

I do dislike posting a comment before reading the thread but good grief, 54 pages!!! So, I hope you'll forgive me if I repeat anything anyone has said before.

I think JKR did as much justice to Snape as he deserved. As much as we would like to believe that there was more good in Snape than just his love of Lily, it wasn't there. She was the only thing/person he ever cared about outside of being a really good wizard. The empathy factor wasn't very strong in Snape and so his only redeeming quality is that he made a deal with Dumbledore to protect her life. When the protection failed, he honored the agreement to protect the boy, but only because of his feelings for Lily. I also think it was to exact his vengeance on Voldemort for having taken her life.

But the rest of Snape was pretty unredeeming, except for not being a coward. Much could be discussed regarding Dumbldore's comment about sorting the students into their houses too soon. It is possible, however unlikely, that Snape might have gone a different direction had he been in a different house, but then, I'm not so sure about that. There are things about the bent of his mind and the low empathy factor that I think he was exactly where he belonged in Slytherin and was killed in a manner that showed he was really only a step above Voldy himself in the way he perceived and treated others. This is all pure speculation, of course. :-)

I found the whole back story on Snape very interesting, and was suprised that he was in the side of the order all along. Because after Half Blood Prince I was convinced that he was bad, He comes across as quite an embittered character Especailly were Lily is concerned, and while he is at Hogwarts he turns to the dark arts and becomes a death eater. I was surprised at his death I didnt think he would be one of the ones to die, and when all the story is revealed through the pensieve its a bit sad as he was quite e remarkable character and very gifted if a little unhinged.

I think JKR did as much justice to Snape as he deserved. As much as we would like to believe that there was more good in Snape than just his love of Lily, it wasn't there. She was the only thing/person he ever cared about outside of being a really good wizard. The empathy factor wasn't very strong in Snape and so his only redeeming quality is that he made a deal with Dumbledore to protect her life. When the protection failed, he honored the agreement to protect the boy, but only because of his feelings for Lily. I also think it was to exact his vengeance on Voldemort for having taken her life.


Vengeance is notably absent as a motivation for Snape in DH. Neither he nor Dumbledore ever refer to it. Further, if Snape was mostly after vengeance, it does not make sense that he would have been 'horrified' by Dumbledore's plan for Harry. It was a plan that would have brought Snape a step closer to the vengeance you suppose was a big motivator for him.

While I agree that 20/21 year old Snape cared about nothing but Lily, the older version in the books seems to have widened his interests some. He was convinced to kill Dubmledore on grounds of mercy rather than practicality (sparing Dumbledore pain and humiliation) and he tried, in the 7 Potters raid, to save the life of Lupin, a man he hated (justifiably or not) and a man who was not necessary to 'the plan'.

I think the manner of Snape's death shows three things. First, it is a dramatic illustration of Voldemort's evil - he disposes of a man he believes to be his most loyal and capable lieutenant without a backward glance. Second, it illustrates the 'grave personal risk' that has been brought up with regard to Snape's spying activities. Snape did not even mess up, he remained under cover, and he still got killed by Voldemort - being around Voldemort a lot is dangerous even if you are not betraying him! And finally, I think it symbolizes the sacrifice Snape made when he agreed to work for Dumbledore as a spy, and especially when he agreed to kill him. All the good, brave things he did, had to stay in obscurity, there was no way for Snape to receive recoignition for them, and he had to work alone. And that is how he died - in obscurity, and (almost) alone. (Harry did show up in the nick of time to receive the memories.) I found it very poetic/moving.

Vengeance is notably absent as a motivation for Snape in DH. Neither he nor Dumbledore ever refer to it. Further, if Snape was mostly after vengeance, it does not make sense that he would have been 'horrified' by Dumbledore's plan for Harry. It was a plan that would have brought Snape a step closer to the vengeance you suppose was a big motivator for him.

While I agree that 20/21 year old Snape cared about nothing but Lily, the older version in the books seems to have widened his interests some. He was convinced to kill Dubmledore on grounds of mercy rather than practicality (sparing Dumbledore pain and humiliation) and he tried, in the 7 Potters raid, to save the life of Lupin, a man he hated (justifiably or not) and a man who was not necessary to 'the plan'.

I think the manner of Snape's death shows three things. First, it is a dramatic illustration of Voldemort's evil - he disposes of a man he believes to be his most loyal and capable lieutenant without a backward glance. Second, it illustrates the 'grave personal risk' that has been brought up with regard to Snape's spying activities. Snape did not even mess up, he remained under cover, and he still got killed by Voldemort - being around Voldemort a lot is dangerous even if you are not betraying him! And finally, I think it symbolizes the sacrifice Snape made when he agreed to work for Dumbledore as a spy, and especially when he agreed to kill him. All the good, brave things he did, had to stay in obscurity, there was no way for Snape to receive recoignition for them, and he had to work alone. And that is how he died - in obscurity, and (almost) alone. (Harry did show up in the nick of time to receive the memories.) I found it very poetic/moving.

I think you raise a lot of good points and I respect your opinions of course.

I would respectfully disagree on a few of the points you made because although they represent a good interpretation, I got an entirely different impression from the reading. In association with Snape's death and its subsequent legacy I see only a tiny bit of bravery, recklessness and one commendable realization. Let me explain:

1. The brave acts - the problem here is that in my eyes JKR didn't give us enough examples of this.

a. Snape spied for Voldemort who might have killed him at any time. That takes courage, but we know others in the Order also acted as spies. Not on a constant basis - however, perhaps equal in time overall. Afterall, Snape was in the saftey of Hogwarts most of the time - even after killing Dumbles and was not in Voldy's presence except for meetings. There was a time when he may have been in Voldy's presence more (following HBP and till he returned to Hogwarts), but other than that, his spying did not place him in direct danger too often.

b. Snape's protection of Harry. I don't see any bravery associated with this except in risking that others might find out he was doing so. But because DD planned it to look like Snape was not actually protecting Harry, Snape's risk was not too great. In fact, Snape actually defied DD's plan several times in this regard and risked Harry's safety at times.

c. Killing Dumbledore. This was courageous in my opinion and despite how I conclude this portion, I do feel Snape showed bravery here because I think he actually liked DD at that point. It meant a tremendous amount of pain and anguish for him to do the deed and he suffered, but knew he had to do it against his will - thus I do see this as brave.

So those are the acts of Snape that I know of and that might be called brave. Only c was to me brave. a and b were to me acts of recklessness because I don't believe that Snape's motive was worthy. (my opinion of course). To me he did it all for nothing (a one sided obsession with Lily that was in reality only in his own head) and thus courageous acts done for nothing are to me, reckless. I respect others may feel differently and those opinions should be valued too.

So for me, Snape's death only resulted in a small amount of bravery and mostly recklessness.

2. Honor.

I believe that Snape was not an hororable character in the main. However, I do feel that he did come to one realization that was truly commendable. "I no longer watch those die that I can save" was his basic realization. His saving Lupin and his saving the kids from possible death at Hogwarts (Ginny and friends while trying to steal the sword) proved to me that he was serious about that. I do feel that for a character like Snape that was a commendable realization.

However I don't feel it is enough to honor a person for coming to what I think of as a socially normal realization. Merely commendable.

Thus in conclusion, I would say that the legacy of Snape's death was a little bravery, a lot of recklessness and a commendable realization. Thus, while I think the point JKR wished us to reach was that Snape was brave and thus redeemed as a character, I could not personally reach that realization from my reading.

"I no longer watch those die that I can save"

Correction respectively submitted:

AD: ". . .How many men and women have you watched die?"

SS: "Lately, only those whom I could not save."

Small difference, but significant IMO.
_________________________________________________

Edit: Good grief! Of course I mean respectfully, I do know the difference!

Correction respectively submitted:

AD: ". . .How many men and women have you watched die?"

SS: "Lately, only those whom I could not save."

Small difference, but significant IMO.

do you think that LV knew that snape was saving people whist being a death eater?

do you think that LV knew that snape was saving people whist being a death eater?

I think if Voldemort ever found out that Snape saved people while a Death Eater, he would've been dead long ago.

I think if Voldemort ever found out that Snape saved people while a Death Eater, he would've been dead long ago.

I agree. But I think he subtly proved that he meant this in ways. Two times that we know of: Trying to save Lupin in 7 potters and saving the kids at hogwarts while he was headmaster by sending them to Hagrid instead of to the Carrows (who would send them to azkaban - which could end in death or harm them personally)

Do you believe it was necessary?

No. Voldemort killed Snape in order to win the allegiance of the Elder Wand. This was unnecessary because Snape was never the master of the EW, as the allegiance had been passed to Draco before Dumbeldore's death and also because Snape had never really defeated DD. Of course, Voldemort didn't know any of this and so Snape had to die.

Did you see it coming?

I was almost sure Snape was going to die in DH. However, I always expected him to die some sort of heroic death that would confirm his allegiance to DD and the Order of the Pheonix.

What did you think about how he died?
And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?

I was shocked that Snape was killed in such a cruel manner. Voldemort had no mercy and he felt no remorse in killing what he thought to be one of his most devoted followers. It was a tragic death that ended a most tragic life. And his last request, to die looking into the eyes of the woman he always loved (even though they belonged to her son), was one of the most touching and saddening moments in the book.

I have wondered why Snape said to Harry "look...at...me."

I like the idea it was for Snape to look into the eyes of Lily again, but I'm open to other ideas if any has them.

I think the whole point of Snape dying that way was that he was always going to be a tragic hero.

Killing him using Nagani was, I think, because it would have been easier for the snake to kill Nagani than it would Voldy as he knew he wasn't master of the wand yet and knowing Snape's magical capabilities, made sure that less effort and no wands were involved. (I guess to be safe. But also, [to a very minute extent] he did say that he regretted that he must kill Snape as well, so perhaps thought if he tried for the killing curse, it may not be strong enough).

There was no other way Snape could have died, except in the hands of Voldemort.

i was very glad that Harry put things right by telling the watching crowd that Snape was truely loyal to Dumbledore all the time at the last duell while everybody was listening. For me he was the true hero of the story. I found it very touching that he cared about Harry all the time. For me he looks better than Dumbledore in the end...

I have wondered why Snape said to Harry "look...at...me."

I like the idea it was for Snape to look into the eyes of Lily again, but I'm open to other ideas if any has them.

I think it also was a request that Harry look at his memories, and see him as he truly was. After a lifetime of antagonism, Snape decided he wanted Harry to know "the best of him" after all.

i was very glad that Harry put things right by telling the watching crowd that Snape was truely loyal to Dumbledore all the time at the last duell while everybody was listening. For me he was the true hero of the story. I found it very touching that he cared about Harry all the time. For me he looks better than Dumbledore in the end...

Snape did not care about Harry. When Dumbledore questioned Snape about this, Snape produced his patronus, a doe, the same as Lily. Then Dumbledore asks him "after all this time?" and Snape says "always" (or something like that). He only did it for Lily, never for Harry.

Snape did not care about Harry. When Dumbledore questioned Snape about this, Snape produced his patronus, a doe, the same as Lily. Then Dumbledore asks him "after all this time?" and Snape says "always" (or something like that). He only did it for Lily, never for Harry.

I couldn't agree more. Snape had a rough life, but he did it impossible to Harry and many other students too. He was arrogatn to the point of loathing him. He never cared for Harry (as he, Harry, reminded him to James), he just cared for Lily. And although I agree with the "theory" of Snape asking Harry to look at him because he wanted to see Lily's eyes for the last time, the first time i read DH I thought (and I still do) that Snape was asking Harry to look his life, his memory.

Snape did not care about Harry. When Dumbledore questioned Snape about this, Snape produced his patronus, a doe, the same as Lily. Then Dumbledore asks him "after all this time?" and Snape says "always" (or something like that). He only did it for Lily, never for Harry.

This is a matter for interpretation, not an issue of black-and-white canon fact. In my opinion, whether or not Snape cared for Harry, it would have been out of character for him to admit it at that moment, after Dumbledore had told him that Harry must die.

Like laluna, I believe he did care about Harry. To me, his 'For him?' was a deliberately phrased non-answer to the question - it is not a yes or a no. (Never for him! would have been less ambiguous, if you see what I mean...) That Snape's Patronus is a doe is also irrelevant - there is no contradiction between still loving/feeling remorse over Lily, and caring for Harry. That Snape chose to accept the mission Dumledore assigned him in that scene, and especially that he shared so many memories with Harry, leads me to believe that his opinion of and feelings for Harry were much better than he ever allowed himself to admit.

This is a matter for interpretation, not an issue of black-and-white canon fact.

While there is room for interpretation, I don't think DH p. 687 leaves as much wiggle room as you think.

Like laluna, I believe he did care about Harry. To me, his 'For him?' was a deliberately phrased non-answer to the question - it is not a yes or a no. (Never for him! would have been less ambiguous, if you see what I mean...)Don't forget, "the him in "For him?" is italicized, not to mention Snape shouts it. This is in response to Dumbledore's question, "Have you grown to care for the boy, after all? Whereupon Snape produces his patronus.

That Snape's Patronus is a doe is also irrelevantIn seeing the doe and then seeing Snape's eyes were full of tears, DD asks "after all this time?" and Snape says "always" means that it is extremely relevant.

There is no room here for Harry. Nothing Snape ever did after he found out that Lily was targeted for death by Voldemort was ever for anyone but Lily. She was the only thing he ever cared about. All he ever saw in Harry was a reminder of that "arrogant toerag" James. DD mentions later somewhere that Snape could never get past Harry's looks to see that he was in fact far more like his mother than his father.

- there is no contradiction between still loving/feeling remorse over Lily, and caring for Harry. That Snape chose to accept the mission Dumledore assigned him in that scene, and especially that he shared so many memories with Harry, leads me to believe that his opinion of and feelings for Harry were much better than he ever allowed himself to admit.It is quite true that there is no contradiction IF Snape had come to care for the boy. But it never happened. As for giving Harry his memories, it was his only way to tell Harry the final piece, that Harry was himself a horcrux and would need to let Voldemort kill him so that Voldemort could himself be finally killed. There wasn't anything noble or kindly in this. It was simply necessary in order to fulfill his promise to Dumbledore in exchange for Lily's life.

OMG! PULEESE DONNOT REMIND ME OF THAT STUPID DEATH! It was sooooooooo sad. Well...I wasn't sad when he just died....but then I was sooo touched after the memory.

While there is room for interpretation, I don't think DH p. 687 leaves as much wiggle room as you think.

Sure it does. :D

Don'ht forget, "the him in "For him?" is italicized, not to mention Snape shouts it. This is in response to Dumbledore's question, "Have you grown to care for the boy, after all? Whereupon Snape produces his patronus.

I am well aware of the question Snape was answering, and I presented the argument that it is not a question Snape would easily answer in the affirmative, even if it were true. Note that Snape never told Lily he loved her, nor ever indicated verbally that he cared at all about Dumbledore. Yet his actions (trying to save her, agreeing to the mercy killing Dumbledore asks for) suggests he cared quite a lot for both. The italics do not change the fact that the form of Snape's answer was not a denial.

In seeing the doe and then seeing Snape's eyes were full of tears, DD asks "after all this time?" and Snape says "always" means that it is extremely relevant.

It was Dumbledore whose eyes were full of tears. The antecedent of the third person pronoun in that line is Dumbledore, the only person mentioned by name in the sentence.

This was before Dumbledore asked the question "After all this time?". My own understanding of this is that Dumbledore saw through Snape's bluster, and it made him sad. He had not realized that the task he had just asked of Snape would be such a difficult one for him.

that Lily was targeted for death by Voldemort was ever for anyone but Lily.

Then why did he try to save the life of Lupin, and refuse to let Phineas call Hermione a Mudblood? Neither of these actions have anything to do with protecting Harry for Lily (or with caring for Harry, for that matter, they just demonstrate that he continued to grow and develop after his return to the good side).

DD mentions later somewhere that Snape could never get past Harry's looks to see that he was in fact far more like his mother than his father.

Quote, please? I do not recall Dumbledore saying much at all about Snape that was not directly related to the Elder Wand, after Snape's death.

As for giving Harry his memories, it was his only way to tell Harry the final piece, that Harry was himself a horcrux and would need to let Voldemort kill him so that Voldemort could himself be finally killed. There wasn't anything noble or kindly in this. It was simply necessary in order to fulfill his promise to Dumbledore in exchange for Lily's life.

Harry needed only the one memory of Dumbledore explaining why Harry must die. Not Snape's entire life story.

Then why did he try to save the life of Lupin, and refuse to let Phineas call Hermione a Mudblood? Neither of these actions have anything to do with protecting Harry for Lily (or with caring for Harry, for that matter, they just demonstrate that he continued to grow and develop after his return to the good side).

Harry needed only the one memory of Dumbledore explaining why Harry must die. Not Snape's entire life story.

I would have to respectfully disagree that Snape cared for Harry. Aside from the fact that JKR said Snape loathed Harry to the end, my impression was that if Snape wanted Harry to know that he cared, he would have left a memory, or said something on his death bed to indicate that.

Even just the word "Harry" would have made Harry look upon him and shown that Snape was thinking of him in some way.

Snape's death, in my opinion, represented a man who had made a poor choice in life to follow Voldemort. In the end, that choice came back to bite him (symbolically shown by the snake IMO) and he was killed by Voldemort showing just how poor his choice to follow the man in the first place was. Snape had already learned that lesson and during his life I do believe he grew to feel everyone had the right to live (contrary to Voldemort). However, that didn't automatically imply that he cared for everyone. He saved Lupin's life, but I do believe he still disliked him. It was the same with Harry. He protected him at times, but he never could lose the image of James enough to care for him. Instead, as JKR pointed out, he loathed him - and I think Harry knew this. Yet Harry forgave Snape for that as well.

This thread is so that you may discuss your reaction to Severus Snape's death.

Do you believe it was necessary? Yes, unfortunately I think it was a necessary death. How else could have Harry gotten his information? Plus I think it would be extremely unrealistic for him to survive in his situation.

Did you see it coming? I was not predicting the way he died, no. That was just vicious, and I didn't think he would be killed by Voldemort. But at the time I was thinking that Snape was more bad than good, so I couldn't of predicted how it happened.

What did you think about how he died? Like I said, it was just gruesome. Such an awful way to die, alone and bleeding to death. After his memories, I just felt so bad for him. And it made me hate Voldemort even more, which I didn't think was possible.

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still? I'm sad, of course! Poor Severus. He suffered for so long. But I'm glad that he was vindicated, and everyone would be able to know that Snape was a good guy after all.

I always hated the greasy haired git and am glad he is gone. But even though I hated him he did not deserve to die like that. He should have died in combat, not bitten by nagini.

It was Dumbledore whose eyes were full of tears. The antecedent of the third person pronoun in that line is Dumbledore, the only person mentioned by name in the sentence.

I wasn't really sure whose eyes were full of tears, but yes, I agree, it was Dumbledore's eyes.

This was before Dumbledore asked the question "After all this time?". My own understanding of this is that Dumbledore saw through Snape's bluster, and it made him sad. He had not realized that the task he had just asked of Snape would be such a difficult one for him.However, I beg to differ on why. I just re-read that passage and given everything else I read looking for the quote to answer your request below, I tend to think he is tearful more for the memory of her and the loss of her to Voldemort than for Snape.

Then why did he try to save the life of Lupin, and refuse to let Phineas call Hermione a Mudblood? Neither of these actions have anything to do with protecting Harry for Lily (or with caring for Harry, for that matter, they just demonstrate that he continued to grow and develop after his return to the good side).There is certainly no denying that Snape is perhaps the most complex character in the entire story. Of all the characters, he is an enigma wrapped in a conundrum.

Quote, please? I do not recall Dumbledore saying much at all about Snape that was not directly related to the Elder Wand, after Snape's death.Your pardon. I got the gist right but not the chronology.

Page 684
[Snape] He is his father over again--
[DD] In looks, perhaps, but his deepest nature is much more like his mother's. ...

Harry needed only the one memory of Dumbledore explaining why Harry must die. Not Snape's entire life story.But how was he going to provide just that one bit of information while he is dying? The only way was to give Harry his memories.

In a way I think Snape telling Harry "look...at...me" was not only to ensure Harry would get his memories as they leaked out, but also for Harry to "see" his life, his heart, his soul, and maybe, just speculation here, to let Harry know that he had loved Harry's mother.

But how was he going to provide just that one bit of information while he is dying? The only way was to give Harry his memories.

In a way I think Snape telling Harry "look...at...me" was not only to ensure Harry would get his memories as they leaked out, but also for Harry to "see" his life, his heart, his soul, and maybe, just speculation here, to let Harry know that he had loved Harry's mother.

He did not have to give him more than that one memory, was my point. The one in which Dumbledore explains the business about the soul bit in Harry, and Harry letting Voldemort kill him.

If, as you say, Snape wanted Harry to know that he had loved Lily (I, in fact, agree he must have wanted this), why? He made quite clear in the second memory with Dumbledore that he could not bear for Harry, the son of James, to know precisely this fact. He made Dumbledore promise never to tell Harry. What changed? I think, between p. 684 (sometime early in PS/SS) and p. 687, (in the latter part of HBP) Snape began to see the truth of the words you quoted. Just my interpretation, naturally. :)

He did not have to give him more than that one memory, was my point. The one in which Dumbledore explains the business about the soul bit in Harry, and Harry letting Voldemort kill him.

How does he do that without a wand to pull out just that memory while he's dying and it's all leaking out at once?

How does he do that without a wand to pull out just that memory while he's dying and it's all leaking out at once?

He has 38 years of memories at his death. If their leakage was random, Harry was one lucky boy, that the one he really needed to see out of tens of thousands of memories happened to come out. ;) I think Snape must have been able to choose which ones even without using his wand.

He has 38 years of memories at his death. If their leakage was random, Harry was one lucky boy, that the one he really needed to see out of tens of thousands of memories happened to come out. ;) I think Snape must have been able to choose which ones even without using his wand.

At which point we are in the realm of pure speculation. Nor does it prove that Snape cared for Harry at all.

At which point we are in the realm of pure speculation. Nor does it prove that Snape cared for Harry at all.

I cited my evidence. I can't make you believe it. ;)

As I work as a statistician, I naturally find it compelling.

Could this discussion about Snape caring or not caring for Harry please be moved to Snape's character analysis thread in Legilimency Studies? Thanks. :)

The memory selection is fascinating...perhaps it was a bit of reverse occlumancy or something similar to producing a patronus. Snape must have concentrated on either memories of Harry or memories of Lily, or he must have "preselected" memories that he wanted to show Harry before Nagini bit him.

The memory selection is fascinating...perhaps it was a bit of reverse occlumancy or something similar to producing a patronus. Snape must have concentrated on either memories of Harry or memories of Lily, or he must have "preselected" memories that he wanted to show Harry before Nagini bit him. It reminded me of the Occlumency lessons in OotP when Snape would invade Harry's mind and a random assortment of memories came out. Snape was very skilled at Occlumency and JK Rowling had made a comment that you needed to be very skilled at compartmentalizing your feelings in order to be a good Occlumens. Snape probably had a store-house of treasured memories that were somehow combined into the group Harry saw. Of course, we all know it was really just a way to convey important plot points to tie up the story. But the scene was very well written.

It reminded me of the Occlumency lessons in OotP when Snape would invade Harry's mind and a random assortment of memories came out. Snape was very skilled at Occlumency and JK Rowling had made a comment that you needed to be very skilled at compartmentalizing your feelings in order to be a good Occlumens. Snape probably had a store-house of treasured memories that were somehow combined into the group Harry saw. Of course, we all know it was really just a way to convey important plot points to tie up the story. But the scene was very well written.

I doubt Snape treasured the memory of that first meeting, in which he 'disgusted' Dumbledore. Or his 'worst'. Or even, the single memory Harry needed to see. Though really, I thought Moriath made it clear she wasnt us to move this to Snape's LS studies thread...

The assortment was very non-random. The story-external reason is that Rowling wanted to give us the whole story. But it was Snape, inside the story, that provided those memories, a choice (by Rowling and by Snape) we should not ignore.

It reminded me of the Occlumency lessons in OotP when Snape would invade Harry's mind and a random assortment of memories came out. Snape was very skilled at Occlumency and JK Rowling had made a comment that you needed to be very skilled at compartmentalizing your feelings in order to be a good Occlumens. Snape probably had a store-house of treasured memories that were somehow combined into the group Harry saw. Of course, we all know it was really just a way to convey important plot points to tie up the story. But the scene was very well written.

As Snape was a very skilled Occlumens, I can see this as the reason he says "look...at...me" while giving Harry certain selected memories. As to why he chose the ones he did is not my concern other than what it tells us about Snape's own life.

Do you believe it was necessary?
NO! I thought that Harry would die and that Snaoe eould kill Voldy but then BAM she killed him.
Did you see it coming?
No Not so unbelievably unsatisfying. I mean he was killed by a Snake for crying out loud!

What did you think about how he died?
IT SUCKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?
I cried for hours!!!!!!

Well, dwelling on the internet as much as I do it was absolutely inevitable to have almost every death in DH spoiled for me, so I pretty much knew every who-killes-who prior to reading the book. Wasn't any big shocks on my part, I just though "aha, so this is where this one dies".

The whole killed by a snake thing did feel sort of cheap, but after all, he was taken by surprise and Nagini was in even Voldemort's eyes worthy of being his horcrux - alongside legendary artifacts from Hogwart's history. The snake must have been quite powerful, fueled by the dark lord and promted to kill an unexpecting foe. Snape's mind was razing to find a way to reach Harry, desperate and puzzeled.

Furthermore; perhaps Voldemort didn't use the killing curse due to the same reason as he perished in the end - he thought Snape was the wands rightful owner and that the curse would backfire using it. Note here that, even though Voldemort in his fury refused to believe that Harry was the wands true master, he was still a genious and would probably understand the mechanics of wand ownership. It came down to what really defeated Dumbledore: And in Voldemort's arrogant mind murder is the only thing that matters, he wouldn't recognize something as trivial as disarming a foe.

Other than that, the snake killing Snape serves another crucial purpose: delaying his death long enough to deliver the message to Harry.

I think the way he died and everything was a pretty big shock- I wasn't thinking that Snape would die at all. And to be killed by Nagini-wasn't expecting it.

When he died the first time I read it, I was really happy. Because I was one of those 'Severus Snape is evil' people. Then I read Prince's Tale (and cried), but I was really annoyed that I didn't get the chance to cry properly and respectively when he died.

So second time round I cried a lot...especially when he said 'Look at me'...*sob*

Poor Snape lived a REALLY sad life...
He's depressed, miserable and sad. He was half responsible for the murder of the love of his life, and is forced to live with that everyday.
To make THAT better, he's forced to look at her son alllll the time.
Oh he also had a horrible childhood.
Then, at the ripe old age of 38, he gets murdered by a massive snake.
Fun, huh?

Yeah I really felt depressed after Snape's death but I believed that Snape acted on Dumbledore's orders from the very beginning..I really respect Snape's bravery throughout the whole series..I just wish he hadn't died..and I felt a lot better once I found out that Snape attacked George by mistake

i, myself, don't care how Snape died. I thought that he was going to be a good guy, but i now think otherwise. The only thing that kept him from being a death eater was loving lily. If he'd have never knowm lily, he woul dbe EVIL!!! so i really dont care about that greese ball...

i, myself, don't care how Snape died. I thought that he was going to be a good guy, but i now think otherwise. The only thing that kept him from being a death eater was loving lily. If he'd have never knowm lily, he woul dbe EVIL!!! so i really dont care about that greese ball...

But that's the point. That love saved him. That's why he turned around. Pretty big message in my opinion.

Mmm.

Well. I don't like snape as a person, I loved him as a character... from the beginning to the end. But I didn't like his end... not because I wanted him to survive, but I think that Rowling wanted him to die and wasn't so concentrated in Snape's actions at the moment: I mean, when he understands that Nagini is about to kill him, he doesn't try to kill the snake, but to remove the protection. It's strage in my opinion.

Well I always hated Snape, right from the beginning. Thought he was an evil, twisted man etc. But I did start having a feeling that he would turn out good, and i think that was simply because of Dumbledore's belief in him.

I actually bawled my eyes out when he died, and got worse after I saw his memories. I truely felt guilty about hating him so much lol. I found it tragic about how he loved Lily so much and it all turned out so badly for him. His death was too quick for my liking

I always knew that deep down he was good but that at the end he would be killed. I thought he would have a face to face with Harry first and at the beginning I was a bit let down that Harry found out about him through the Pensieve. But now, having time to think about it, it was better that way, as they couldn't suddenly start to chat with each other after all they've been through.
I was suprised that Snape was killed so easily by Nagini though, I thought he was a stronger wizard than that.

I was suprised that Snape was killed so easily by Nagini though, I thought he was a stronger wizard than that.

Yes, exactly!
He tried to remove the protection to escape the snake, not to fight Nagini. Snape was a great wizard, it's a bit strange.

I would have loved to see the extent of Snape's magical powers, he was supposedly VERY powerful. I hated how he had a fast death.

I don't think it was neccesary for Snape to die because he was a hero and I wish he had the chance to prove it to everyone and get the credit he deserved. I didn't see it coming at all and I thought Voldy would just do the Cruciatus curse instead of just killing a servant he thought was so faithful? I'm stilll totally shocked.

I would have loved to see the extent of Snape's magical powers, he was supposedly VERY powerful. I hated how he had a fast death.

He was a very powerful wizard, but he couldn't do anything at that situation. He was in extreme shock. I mean all Dumbledore's plan was falling apart, he was going to die and Harry didn't knew the truth about him nor the 8th Horcrux. And If Snape defended himslef, he could have killed Nagini and Harry would have thought that all he had to do was kill Voldemort, when we know that's not true.
So for me it was very well written.

Snape isn't my favorite person, but he is my favorite character. I've never been too emotional over any of the deaths in the books, though. To be utterly honest, I bawled in my first read-through of HBP because it was Snape of all people who killed Dumbledore.

I wasn't too surprised at Snape's death, though, thanks to a person who put "Voldemort kills Snape" as a thread title in a forum I didn't believe anyone would actually put spoilers in. But, no, I was less spoiled in the forum I expected spoilers in. At least all of those spoilers were clearly labeled, "BOOK 7 SPOILERS HERE" and didn't give away a thing.

Another reason I wasn't terribly surprised at the death was because the Slytherin hourglass had been destroyed before Harry went to the Shrieking Shack. I saw it sort of as some sort of inversion/parallel sort of thing of the Gryffindor hourglass being destroyed after Dumbledore's death. The breaking of the hourglass sort of cemented what I had read on the internet, which I was not inclined to believe at first.

Upon his death, I slammed my book shut. I wasn't overly concerned about the death itself -- I had wanted Snape to live, but that was entirely beside the point with the "Look at me" comment. I immediately took that as conformation of the Snape-loved-Lily argument that I had disagreed with for ages. That was the one thing I wanted to be correct with and there was obvious proof right then and there to me at the least that what I had been saying was wrong.

I really wish we had a chance to see I mean really see Snape in action. I for one even when I thought he was an evil git:lol: was going to be the one to destroy Voldy. I never thought Harry was strong enough. I wanted snape and Harry to at least have it out. It was a very unsatisactory end all in all.:grumble:

I would like to talk about the two most common points that people believe it was necessary to kill Snape over.

The first one is that many don't believe he could have been a hero unless he died, including Rowling herself. I very strongly disagree with this. Snape did not display anything in his death that he did not show before, like loyalty to Lily. He was already as much of a hero/anti-hero then as he was before. It is my sad opinion that Rowling took the very shortest route with this storyline and others, and killed him so that she didn't have to write anymore than she absolutely had to.

The second point people bring up is the Elder Wand confusion. This is another problem that I have with the story. Snape did not need to die over this, I believe it was just another excuse to kill him off and avoid writing additional story, this time concerning Draco Malfoy. Not only could it have been handled differently, the alternatives just makes a heck of a lot more sense.

The death-eaters saw that Draco, not Snape, disarmed Dumbledore. Harry remembered Draco ready to turn at the Astronomy Tower, where it was actually mentioned to Draco that his death could be faked. It seems logical that that would be followed up in the next book, and Harry still could have won the fight. I can and will elaborate, but that is for other topics which im sure people already brought up.

Overall, I believe Snape dying was just not necessary. Rowling simply did not like the character(s), and did not want to write more than was needed in her eyes. That is all in my opinion, and I do find it rather insulting.


Agreed. :tu:

I was actually really disappointed in the way he died. Given that it was lead on that Snape was a very powerful wizard, I would have hoped for some time of heroic scene entailing Snape battling Voldemort or some such character in a last attempt to redeem himself and dying valiantly. Unfortunately, that is not how it went and I must say, I was disappointed as I can see, many others were. I think I'll make a thread just for Snape's death. I wonder what different ways people think Snape should have passed.


Poor Snape lived a REALLY sad life...
He's depressed, miserable and sad. He was half responsible for the murder of the love of his life, and is forced to live with that everyday.
To make THAT better, he's forced to look at her son alllll the time.
Oh he also had a horrible childhood.
Then, at the ripe old age of 38, he gets murdered by a massive snake.
Fun, huh?

I aspire to live such a great life. xD

I myself was very disappointed in Snapes death. And for one, I think he should have died valiantly in the heat of battle, protecting Harry from an AK curse or some such act. But no...No battle, no hero, no redemption...Just a munching on from a snake...That just sucks.


Poor Snape lived a REALLY sad life...
He's depressed, miserable and sad. He was half responsible for the murder of the love of his life, and is forced to live with that every day.
To make THAT better, he's forced to look at her son alllll the time.
Oh he also had a horrible childhood.
Then, at the ripe old age of 38, he gets murdered by a massive snake.
Fun, huh?

HIs life just sucked in general.

But, I want to hear your ideas on how you think he should have died! Had you written the book, how would he have died? Would he have died at all? Would he have finally redeemed himself? Or just continued to be an evil death eater as was led to believe?

I needed alot of time to think on this.... I will probably have to read the series all over again before I am sure about how I feel about Snape.

But that I really think on it... Snap is the ultimate Tragic Hero. Nothing went right for him. He had a miserable childhood, lost the woman he loved because of his actions, made terrible choices, lost the woman he loved for real, had a miserable adulthood, lived a tortured untrusted life as a double agent, lived with lies. And most of it not because he wanted to, but because he had to, in some cases succomb to his circumstances.

He did it because he was guided in the wrong direction, when he wanted to change it was too late, and when he had changed he had to live in lies in order to protect the people on the good side.

He deserved a better death, and despite all the terrible things he had done he deserved a better life.

I thought the death was perfectly in line with Snape's character. Snape made a number of poor choices in his early life symbolically associated with the Snake: obsession with the dark arts, following Voldemort and working for him. Upon his death, he was bitten by a Snake and I found it all symbolically perfect, bitten by the Snake he'd chosen to follow.

I also liked that the whole matter was taken care of quickly because he obviously was not going to fight Voldemort (he had to get to Harry) so there was no point in dragging out his death in my opinion. I would have preferred a nice drawn out battle - but it would not have fit with the storyline IMO.

I was never fond of the character from beginning to end (although some of his scenes were funny to read) so his death didn't affect me at all. I didn't think he died a hero merely because he'd done what everone else in the book had - protect Harry - Dumbledore, Sirius, Lupin, Moody and many others had done that. I found him to be reckless, not brave, with respect to his spying efforts - and his carrying a torch for Lily didn't change my view of him at all. So it was likely the least significant death in the book for me personally.

I thought the death was perfectly in line with Snape's character. Snape made a number of poor choices in his early life symbolically associated with the Snake: obsession with the dark arts, following Voldemort and working for him. Upon his death, he was bitten by a Snake and I found it all symbolically perfect, bitten by the Snake he'd chosen to follow.

... except,of course, that by the end of the last book we find out that Severus was not, in fact, 'following the Snake' but laying its trap for somewhere around 18 years.


I didn't think he died a hero merely because he'd done what everone else in the book had

Harry Potter and J.K. Rowling say quite the opposite.

I don't think that anyone of us can deny that Snape died a hero.

The way he died didn't bother me. He was caught off guard by Voldemort and the way he was killed both a testament to how awful Voldy was that he would kill what he believed to be a most loyal subject, as well as a clue to the whole Elder Wand saga. Voldy wouldn't use the Elder Wand believing Snape was the true owner so he had to do something different. It also was not at all what Snape expected which allowed Voldy to get the jump on him. Had Voldy used a wand, Snape would have been able to fight back and possibly escape.

I think he should've lived to a ripe old age, and just lived a nice peaceful life after the war. I feel really bad for him, I think if anyone deserved the resurection stone, it's Snape. but I guess it's not so bad, he gets to see Lily again.

Hmm, this is gonna be an interesting discussion!

After he redeemed himself, I remember thinking that I would've liked Harry to run to his side, then Snape hands over a vial of the memories to Harry and says 'I hope...this....explains....' before lapsing into unconciousness. Harry calls Kreacher and has him take Snape to Madame Pompfrey before he goes to the castle to see the memories. Then we see him in the final battle cheering Neville on... okay, this was unrealistic. :blush: I was sad when I saw the memories!

Pimzie brings up a great point. I think I agree.

If I were basing my answer on my personal preference, I would have preferred Snape not to die at all. It was not necessary for his redemption, in my opinion. The story of the last 16 years of his life was enough without his death. It's not the dying that makes someone a hero, to my way of thinking, just the willingness to take that chance. (Look at Harry, for example!)

I was expecting him to die because he seemed to me such a tragic figure. I thought Voldemort might kill him (guessed that part right!), perhaps because he'd finally slip up. It's cool that he never did, though, the perfect Occlumens to the end.

i think it would have been cool if he had died protecting harry, because that really would have prooved what side he was on. basically, he would thrust the memories into harry's hand and before harry had the chance to say anything voldemort or death eaters would come, and he would stand in front of harry, and he would be killed, and harry could escape.

but i liked his death. his dying moment was so powerful. plus, we have the satisfaction in knowning that he did deafeat voldemort in a way--voldemort never guessed that snape wasn't on his side. that is really a tribute to snape's power.

While he was on their side and not Voldys I can't see him readily protecting Harry, or Harry jumping out so early.

But it would have been nice to see him protecting Harry in such a manner...Getting past all his hatred for James and realizing that Harry was also Lilys son and that Lily would have wanted for Harry to be happy and safe...(He should have thought that through earlier on..and not been so mean to Harry!)

Snape's death didn't really achieve anything except to demonstrate how Voldemort treats his loyal servants, and, as zgirnius pointed out in another thread, to give Voldemort a false sense of security about the Elder Wand.

Personally I think Snape's death suited his life. He wasn't an action hero. He wasn't there in any of the big duels, he didn't fight to the death or throw himself in front of a child. Neither his life nor his death were glamorous or outwardly heroic. Snape's role was always a more subtle one, without public glory.

My personal preference would have been Snape not dying at all and I think the story could have gone that way. It's not like there weren't plenty of other sad deaths.
But since that's not the story....I think Snape being killed because Voldemort doesn't know how his wand works (kind of like a top race car driver not understanding the concept of the spark plug) is ironic to say the least.

And I do think it's cool Voldemort was fooled to the end.

I think that Snape had to die that way because we had to find out what he had done & why he had done it. If Snape had gone into the final fight I'm sure he would have been killed by a member of the Order before he even got a chance to show Harry his memories. Or if Voldemort had killed him with Avada Kevadra then Snape would have been dead straight away and wouldn't have been able to give Harry his memories.

Also it allowed for the touching scene where Snape got to look at 'Lily's' eyes.

I didn't want Snape death, I wanted happy ending for him... I wanted things to resolve between him and harry even if it would be out of character, but it didn't happen that way..but even if he had to die, I wanted him to die fighting for the good side in the battle...no I didn't want him to jump infront of harry and take Avada Kedavra on his chest but there was nothing bad in fighting for the good side in general like McGonagall

I wish Snape would have lived.

But since he died; let me say this.

I look as Snape as a type of Romeo figure. When he thought that Juliet died, he killed himself to be with her. And when Lily died, Snape wanted to die, so he could be with her, even though she married another man. Just seeing her again would be enough. He did not fear death because he would be with his one true love.

If I were basing my answer on my personal preference, I would have preferred Snape not to die at all. It was not necessary for his redemption, in my opinion. The story of the last 16 years of his life was enough without his death. It's not the dying that makes someone a hero, to my way of thinking, just the willingness to take that chance. (Look at Harry, for example!)

I was expecting him to die because he seemed to me such a tragic figure. I thought Voldemort might kill him (guessed that part right!), perhaps because he'd finally slip up. It's cool that he never did, though, the perfect Occlumens to the end.

Couldn't agree more. It was great that he didn't let slip anything and act his part until the very end. I think he is much happier now and I would like to see Lily forgiveing him in the "after life".

There came a time that I almost despised Snape. but after his death, I cant help but to feel very disappointed (the scene was so dramatic!). He's been suffering for like 30 years (I dont know exactly when Lily ended their friendship) and I think thats enough. :no:

If I were basing my answer on my personal preference, I would have preferred Snape not to die at all. It was not necessary for his redemption, in my opinion. The story of the last 16 years of his life was enough without his death. It's not the dying that makes someone a hero, to my way of thinking, just the willingness to take that chance. (Look at Harry, for example!)

I was expecting him to die because he seemed to me such a tragic figure.

I agree with you. Death was not necessary for his redemption, but it emphasized his tragedy even more. Besides, he had nothing to live for but his mission. He might have committed suicide 16 years ago but he had made a promise. After he had given Harry the memories, the task was completed and he was finished. He's been through so much pain that I doubt he would ever have been happy had he stayed alive.

I think I am one of the few people that did not miss his portrait or the retrieval of his body. Somehow, he is finally gone where no one can follow, he does not need to justify or explain anything anymore. I also don't really see him and Harry having a conversation after Snape has opened up his heart for Harry to see.

Snape made a number of poor choices in his early life symbolically associated with the Snake: obsession with the dark arts, following Voldemort and working for him.
Everyone makes mistakes as a child/teenager. If he wasn't so unloved as a child and teased so much at school, he may not have needed the allure of the dark arts and the power Voldemort offered. I don't think he ever fully worked for Voldemort, except maybe when he related the prophecy that he had heard - but Snape had no idea what tradegies that would lead to.



I also liked that the whole matter was taken care of quickly because he obviously was not going to fight Voldemort (he had to get to Harry) so there was no point in dragging out his death in my opinion.

I respect your opinion because I felt that way about characters that I had no particular love for - but being a Snape supported, I would have liked him to have a better, longer death scene. The more we see of Snape the better! I was hanging out for bits of him in the last book, he was not mentioned enough for my liking.



I didn't think he died a hero merely because he'd done what everone else in the book had - protect Harry - Dumbledore, Sirius, Lupin, Moody and many others had done that.
While I think that the others you mentioned are heroes too and all lost their life fighting Voldemort - directly or indirectly, what made Snape's story more tragic is the double life he had to lead to complete his role in protecting Harry. He had to personally face Voldemort, someone he despised after Lily's murder, and because of his youthful indescretions, he was never fully trusted in his adult life - though he should have been!
The other heroes did not have to endure what Snape had to. Snape had to lead a complex life, lying to Voldemort, feeding him false information, he would never have been able to relax or enjoy himself.

I read someone that Snape has a huge following in the 25-40 year old female fans. That makes sense to me. When I started reading Harry Potter at age 19 Harry was just a child, Snape was much more desirable.

I think it would be interesting if the moderators created a poll asking whether you are a huge Snape fan or not, your gender, and what age range you fall into - under 20, 20-25, 25 and over.

With such a large enrollment on this sight, we could get a comprehensive answer whether or not it is the majority of older female readers who have crushes on Severus Snape

I read someone that Snape has a huge following in the 25-40 year old female fans. That makes sense to me. When I started reading Harry Potter at age 19 Harry was just a child, Snape was much more desirable.

I think it would be interesting if the moderators created a poll asking whether you are a huge Snape fan or not, your gender, and what age range you fall into - under 20, 20-25, 25 and over.

With such a large enrollment on this sight, we could get a comprehensive answer whether or not it is the majority of older female readers who have crushes on Severus Snape

Snape's death was horrible - as in it just wasn't any good/shouldn't have been written that way/was a copout and an unfair end to a character with such great potential.

Before the flames begin, allow me to explain:

Looking at the character development and the impact Snape had on the story, the importance of his character in relation to the others (especially Harry Potter), the death written was anti-climatic at best and, at worst, a harried attempt with no forethought by the writer. Granted, Jo may have had a much more elaborate death in mind and, due to budget constraints, time, publication pressure, etc. it had to be whittled down but his death, to me, seemed to only undermine everything she had accomplished by establishing his character to this point.

When we last saw Snape, at the end of HBP, he was in a most unique situation - DD was dead, Snape was under fire and had to continue his masquerade as Voldemort's right-hand man, fleeing Hogwart's and (apparently) choosing his side with the Deatheaters. He was the ONLY character (aside from Potter) that was in a direct position to cause any great harm or great service to Voldemort. More so, he had to make a choice - follow his allegiance and assist in the destruction of Harry Potter and set firm the rule of Voldemort or risk his own life by turning on the Dark Lord and siding with Potter. Despite when he made his choice of the two, the climatic scene should have been just that – CLIMATIC. Snape, Voldemort and Harry should have been together and Snape should have made clear by action the choice he had made – of course, striking against Voldemort, weakening him, sacrificing his own life and allowing Harry to escape. The entire sequence of Snape and Lily’s past (told you!) could still have been shared one way or another and the character arc of Severus Snape would have been complete and fitting. Instead we get Snape still deceiving, still unsure and, in the end, bitten in the neck by a giant snake. *snore* I was so disappointed in that one moment I nearly put the book down then and there.

Say what you will about this post and the books, but in my honest opinion, as a writer and a fan, Jo missed so many opportunities to make this book great – Snape’s death was just one of them. Two more were Draco and Neville.

Draco, like Snape, needed to make a decision as to what side he had chosen. Even if he was still loyal to Slytherin he needed to see that the path he had chosen to follow was not the right one, and a simple one-sentence act of perhaps lending Harry a hand during the final battle would have spoken volumes about his character. With Neville, it had been established that the prophecy could very well have been about Neville as it had been about Harry but this was never realized beyond that establishment. Being that this thread is about Snape, I won’t get into what I would have liked to have seen with Neville but if anyone is interested, send me an owl and I’ll shoot one your way.

In closing, for me Snape’s death was meaningless and unbefitting of a character we have loved from the beginning. Perhaps I am jaded as he was my favorite character and I had always expected greater things of him. I never expected him to survive the final book but I also expected Jo to complete the character arc she had established for him.

But, I want to hear your ideas on how you think he should have died! Had you written the book, how would he have died? Would he have died at all? Would he have finally redeemed himself? Or just continued to be an evil death eater as was led to believe?

Well If I had written the last book and Snape had to die, then I would have him die battling against Voldemort. Yes he was a Death Eater, but I'm sure he wanted Voldemort gone just as much as the next person.

I was actually really disappointed in the way he died. Given that it was lead on that Snape was a very powerful wizard, I would have hoped for some time of heroic scene entailing Snape battling Voldemort or some such character in a last attempt to redeem himself and dying valiantly. Unfortunately, that is not how it went and I must say, I was disappointed as I can see, many others were.


Yeah, I was definitely expecting a scene with a fight to the death between Snape and Greyback or something like that. I was not expecting death by Nagini/Voldemort.

I also thought there would be a scene where Snape talks to Harry (without Harry attacking him or something) and it becomes clear that Snape is a good guy. That was covered in the book, but not as I had hoped.

While I think that the others you mentioned are heroes too and all lost their life fighting Voldemort - directly or indirectly, what made Snape's story more tragic is the double life he had to lead to complete his role in protecting Harry. He had to personally face Voldemort, someone he despised after Lily's murder, and because of his youthful indescretions, he was never fully trusted in his adult life - though he should have been!
The other heroes did not have to endure what Snape had to. Snape had to lead a complex life, lying to Voldemort, feeding him false information, he would never have been able to relax or enjoy himself.

Snape himself lead to his non-trustable figure as he asked Dumbledore never to mention his deep love for Lily.

Instead we get Snape still deceiving, still unsure and, in the end, bitten in the neck by a giant snake. *snore* I was so disappointed in that one moment I nearly put the book down then and there.


We may have been unsure at the moment of Snape's death, Harry may have been unsure as well, but Snape was not. He knew exactly what he was doing. In the course of DH, he acted consistently for the 'good' side, as indeed he has done since before Harry started school.

For me, the death fits the character perfectly. In taking up the task of the spy, and especially, in agreeing to murder Dumbledore, Snape gave up any chance of the camaraderie and recognition that others on his side could hope to experience. This was his great sacrifice, for the greater good, and he stuck with that choice to the bitter (and unspectacular and highly unpleasant) end.

For me, the death fits the character perfectly. In taking up the task of the spy, and especially, in agreeing to murder Dumbledore, Snape gave up any chance of the camaraderie and recognition that others on his side could hope to experience. This was his great sacrifice, for the greater good, and he stuck with that choice to the bitter (and unspectacular and highly unpleasant) end.
Yes, considering the lowly way Snape died, in obscurity, with only his memories for "proof" of his goodness and only Harry to vouch for him, it does away with the theory that Snape wanted "glory." He really only wanted to "go the distance" for Harry and then let him go on to destroy Voldemort.

Snape's story both in HBP and DH is all about keeping promises. Snape keeps his promises to both Narcissa and Dumbledore in HBP, and then in DH keeps his promise to himself that he would do it all for Lily. It's not about the reward, it's about the act of doing the best you can no matter what happens.

Snape's death was horrible - as in it just wasn't any good/shouldn't have been written that way/was a copout and an unfair end to a character with such great potential.

Before the flames begin, allow me to explain:

Looking at the character development and the impact Snape had on the story, the importance of his character in relation to the others (especially Harry Potter), the death written was anti-climatic at best and, at worst, a harried attempt with no forethought by the writer. Granted, Jo may have had a much more elaborate death in mind and, due to budget constraints, time, publication pressure, etc. it had to be whittled down but his death, to me, seemed to only undermine everything she had accomplished by establishing his character to this point.

When we last saw Snape, at the end of HBP, he was in a most unique situation - DD was dead, Snape was under fire and had to continue his masquerade as Voldemort's right-hand man, fleeing Hogwart's and (apparently) choosing his side with the Deatheaters. He was the ONLY character (aside from Potter) that was in a direct position to cause any great harm or great service to Voldemort. More so, he had to make a choice - follow his allegiance and assist in the destruction of Harry Potter and set firm the rule of Voldemort or risk his own life by turning on the Dark Lord and siding with Potter. Despite when he made his choice of the two, the climatic scene should have been just that – CLIMATIC. Snape, Voldemort and Harry should have been together and Snape should have made clear by action the choice he had made – of course, striking against Voldemort, weakening him, sacrificing his own life and allowing Harry to escape. The entire sequence of Snape and Lily’s past (told you!) could still have been shared one way or another and the character arc of Severus Snape would have been complete and fitting. Instead we get Snape still deceiving, still unsure and, in the end, bitten in the neck by a giant snake. *snore* I was so disappointed in that one moment I nearly put the book down then and there.

Say what you will about this post and the books, but in my honest opinion, as a writer and a fan, Jo missed so many opportunities to make this book great – Snape’s death was just one of them. Two more were Draco and Neville.

Draco, like Snape, needed to make a decision as to what side he had chosen. Even if he was still loyal to Slytherin he needed to see that the path he had chosen to follow was not the right one, and a simple one-sentence act of perhaps lending Harry a hand during the final battle would have spoken volumes about his character. With Neville, it had been established that the prophecy could very well have been about Neville as it had been about Harry but this was never realized beyond that establishment. Being that this thread is about Snape, I won’t get into what I would have liked to have seen with Neville but if anyone is interested, send me an owl and I’ll shoot one your way.

In closing, for me Snape’s death was meaningless and unbefitting of a character we have loved from the beginning. Perhaps I am jaded as he was my favorite character and I had always expected greater things of him. I never expected him to survive the final book but I also expected Jo to complete the character arc she had established for him.

I completely agree with you. Snape used to be a fascinating character - immensely complex. Now he is no more than a pathetic cliche. This really is the only thing about DH that was just a complete letdown. Good or bad, Snape should have made a definitive choice one way or the other. There should be no unanswered questions or unresolved issues regarding Snape now.

Unfortunately, we have nothing but unanswered questions and unresolved issues when it comes to Snape. His creepy obsession with Lily does nothing to justify or explain his actions throughout the series and he was most definitely not redeemed in this book. His character was destroyed and - even worse - Dumbledore had to be dragged through the mud for even the wishy washy "he did it all for revenge even though he hated Harry's guts" idea to even come close to working.

In the end, I would have to say his death was fitting. A pathetic end for what sadly became a pathetic, cliched character. There was such an amazing potential with Snape's storyline. That could have been an awesome piece of writing if Jo had simply addressed all the issues that had been left hanging about Snape and answered the questions she said would be answered. It's been over a month and I still cannot read that chapter in DH. It is just too disappointing. Snape being obsessed with Lily doesn't even begin to justify or explain his actions and Harry's reaction is completely contrived, unrealistic, and unbelievable. Jo really dropped the ball on that one.

I felt cheated when Snape died this way. And I certainly dont believe he would ever have 'Spilled' his memories and feelings of Lily to Harry. He hated Harry as much as he hated James. They should have dueled, though not necessarily to the death. Harry lived an emotional roller coaster, and was conflicted in many ways. The Snape/Potter 'Fued' was one of the best storey lines or sub-plots in the series.......This was not the way it should have ended. It seemed to be the easy way out for JK, to tie up loose ends without having to these two fighting with words or wands.

I felt cheated when Snape died this way. And I certainly dont believe he would ever have 'Spilled' his memories and feelings of Lily to Harry. He hated Harry as much as he hated James. They should have dueled, though not necessarily to the death. Harry lived an emotional roller coaster, and was conflicted in many ways. The Snape/Potter 'Fued' was one of the best storey lines or sub-plots in the series.......This was not the way it should have ended. It seemed to be the easy way out for JK, to tie up loose ends without having to these two fighting with words or wands.

That is an excellent point. There were so many unresolved issues regarding Snape that there really should have been some kind of direct confrontation between Harry and Snape to resolve everything. Harry viewing Snape's memories - and only selective memories at that - simply did not cut it for me and it left far too many questions unanswered. It is interesting how Snape chose not to show Harry any memories of his dealings with Voldemort or the Death Eaters. What Harry was shown simply was not enough to explain Snape's behavior or his actions. I think a final duel between the two of them would have been far more satisfying and would have resolved a lot more.

That one moment of memories it took to convey Harry his thoughts was worth an entire series of emotion. Severus Snape chose that one moment to justify whose side he was on, and all that he endured through and through...



They do sort to soon, because Severus Snape died a hero's death. We applaud you, Severus. :gryff:

That one moment of memories it took to convey Harry his thoughts was worth an entire series of emotion. Severus Snape chose that one moment to justify whose side he was on, and all that he endured through and through...



They do sort to soon, because Severus Snape died a hero's death. We applaud you, Severus. :gryff:

Snape would never have been sorted into Gryffindor. He was appalled at the mere suggestion of it. He was Slytherin through and through and his first priority was always to himself.

I just can't agree that any of Snape's actions were justified by those few selective memories that he chose to show Harry. There are simply too many unanswered questions and unresolved issues. Snape being obsessed with Lily does not explain why Sirius and Snape hated each other. Snape being obsessed with Lily does not explain why he let Sirius suffer in Azkaban for 12 years when he knew full well that Sirius was innocent the entire time. Snape being obsessed with Lily does not explain why Snape never revealed to Dumbledore that Pettigrew was the real spy even though he knew it. Snape being obsessed with Lily does not explain why Snape never bothered to explain to Harry how to do Occlumency, why Harry's mind was left even more open and vulnerable to Voldemort after those lessons, or why Snape deliberately lied to Harry about emotions being the key to blocking his mind from Voldemort. Snape being obsessed with Lily does not explain or justify his horrible treatment and borderline abuse of his students. Snape's obsession with Lily does not explain or justify why he stood by and did nothing while innocent people were tortured and murdered.

No, Snape was most definitely not a hero and most definitely not a Gryffindor. :no:

Snape would never have been sorted into Gryffindor. He was appalled at the mere suggestion of it. He was Slytherin through and through and his first priority was always to himself.

This, of course, is why he died alone and unrecognized. :huh: And why Dumbledore and Harry were both so impressed with his courage.

deuce_22, :tu:!

This, of course, is why he died alone and unrecognized. :huh: And why Dumbledore and Harry were both so impressed with his courage.

Couldn't agree more. I think that's why Harry forgave Snape so fast, although he was awful with him. Harry respected his courage and so did Dumbledore.

Well If I had written the last book and Snape had to die, then I would have him die battling against Voldemort. Yes he was a Death Eater, but I'm sure he wanted Voldemort gone just as much as the next person.
Well Snuff (Strange calling you by another name, considering I know you IRL), I totally agree. I think a fight between Voldemort and Snape would be spectacular. One arguably the most powerful wizard of all time versus another powerful wizard. It makes me squirm to think of how it could have been written. Obviously, Snape would have lost if pitched against Big V, but just think of how it would have been done! Now that would have been a page turner...Much better than some snake taking a bite out of him so Mr. V's wand might work a little better.... -Sigh-

That is an excellent point. There were so many unresolved issues regarding Snape that there really should have been some kind of direct confrontation between Harry and Snape to resolve everything. Harry viewing Snape's memories - and only selective memories at that - simply did not cut it for me and it left far too many questions unanswered. It is interesting how Snape chose not to show Harry any memories of his dealings with Voldemort or the Death Eaters. What Harry was shown simply was not enough to explain Snape's behavior or his actions. I think a final duel between the two of them would have been far more satisfying and would have resolved a lot more.

I think a final duel between Snape and Harry would have got in the way of the real conflict. I agree that it was all a bit sudden and unsatisfactory - the switch from Snape as Voldemort's right hand man to Dumbledore's loyal servant and Lily's admirer was very abrupt. But while Snape's role was important, Snape's story was important only to his own redemption. Snape's role as a spy had been ongoing, and required only an explanation at that point. In the end, the revelation that Harry had to die was crucial, and the story of Snape's love for Lily explained a lot about his life and his role, but any further interaction between Snape and Harry was unnecessary and would only have slowed down the plot.

I also believe that Snape would never have confessed his love for Lily if he wasn't dying, and that Harry would have believed it was a trap if he hadn't just been shown the scenes with Lily. Therefore, Snape's death was a necessary mechanism for Harry to get the information he needed - that his death at the hands of Voldemort was required. But otherwise, it was a messy, unpleasant and inglorious death.

Well Snuff (Strange calling you by another name, considering I know you IRL), I totally agree. I think a fight between Voldemort and Snape would be spectacular. One arguably the most powerful wizard of all time versus another powerful wizard. It makes me squirm to think of how it could have been written. Obviously, Snape would have lost if pitched against Big V, but just think of how it would have been done! Now that would have been a page turner...Much better than some snake taking a bite out of him so Mr. V's wand might work a little better.... -Sigh-
This made me feel better ~ There may be a literary reason JKR killed Snape that way. My friend Subtle Science writes Here (http://www.thehpn.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3809.90) that the great British hero Beowulf died fighting against a snake in a tomb-like treasure trove under the ground, and he was bitten on the neck, just like Snape. He is called "The Great Prince" in the poem. The only one who stayed with him was a young man named "Wiglaf" who had heard his last wish, and showed him his "treasure" before he died. In that case, it was real golden treasure that he wanted to see, but in Snape's case, it was Lily's eyes in the living Harry.

You can read Beowulf's death scene here (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/tml/tml25.htm), and there are many other versions of course.

In the end, I would have to say his death was fitting. A pathetic end for what sadly became a pathetic, cliched character. There was such an amazing potential with Snape's storyline. That could have been an awesome piece of writing if Jo had simply addressed all the issues that had been left hanging about Snape and answered the questions she said would be answered. It's been over a month and I still cannot read that chapter in DH. It is just too disappointing. Snape being obsessed with Lily doesn't even begin to justify or explain his actions and Harry's reaction is completely contrived, unrealistic, and unbelievable. Jo really dropped the ball on that one.

Since you put it that way. Yes Snape's death does seem fitting afterall. And I can't bring myself to read that chapter either. Why would someone originally portrayed as a logical, rational being be obsessed over someone who is dead and married as well as reproduced with his rival long ago?

This made me feel better ~ There may be a literary reason JKR killed Snape that way. My friend Subtle Science writes Here (http://www.thehpn.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3809.90) that the great British hero Beowulf died fighting against a snake in a tomb-like treasure trove under the ground, and he was bitten on the neck, just like Snape. He is called "The Great Prince" in the poem. The only one who stayed with him was a young man named "Wiglaf" who had heard his last wish, and showed him his "treasure" before he died. In that case, it was real golden treasure that he wanted to see, but in Snape's case, it was Lily's eyes in the living Harry.

You can read Beowulf's death scene here (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/tml/tml25.htm), and there are many other versions of course.

Upon completion of DH I wouldn't read too deeply into things found in the HP series anymore. If one beleives that the author based Snape's death on Beowulf, who infact died as a hero and was actually recognised after his death, then why wouldn't Snape have his body retrieved and a portrait put up? Why would the author not convey or channel 'Snape's heroism' through Albus? It is through Albus that she communicates her beliefs/ideas.


They do sort to soon, because Severus Snape died a hero's death. We applaud you, Severus. :gryff:

And here we have proof that lost is the message that students are sorted into houses through their own choices rather than their personalities. Snape is brave and a Slytherin. Snape is Snape regardless of the house he is in and where he should have been.

Why would someone originally portrayed as a logical, rational being be obsessed over someone who is dead and married as well as reproduced with his rival long ago?

Logical, rational people do fall in love just like the rest of humanity. In Snape's case, the object of that love was not just a pretty woman, but his first and best friend.

Why would the author not convey or channel 'Snape's heroism' through Albus? It is through Albus that she communicates her beliefs/ideas.

After becoming "the Master of Death", being acknowledged as 'the better man' by Albus himself, and coming up with his own plan for the final defeat of Voldemort, I think Harry became the man through whom Rowling expresses her views. And Harry makes sure that Voldemort, and all assembled, know exactly what Snape did.

Upon completion of DH I wouldn't read too deeply into things found in the HP series anymore. If one beleives that the author based Snape's death on Beowulf, who infact died as a hero and was actually recognised after his death, then why wouldn't Snape have his body retrieved and a portrait put up? Why would the author not convey or channel 'Snape's heroism' through Albus? It is through Albus that she communicates her beliefs/ideas.
Harry names his son after Snape, therefore he is honored. Beowulf died without a son, and Harry names his son after Snape. Then Harry tells Albus Severus that Snape was the "bravest man" he ever knew.

Also, you may not be aware, but JKR said she thought Harry would have done something to make sure Snape's portrait was added to the Headmaster's Office.

Logical, rational people do fall in love just like the rest of humanity. In Snape's case, the object of that love was not just a pretty woman, but his first and best friend.

Yes, I can understand that but not to dedicate their whole life to someone whi in my opinion was not giving back much to the relationship...aaaand this is not the thread to post this so I won't go on.


After becoming "the Master of Death", being acknowledged as 'the better man' by Albus himself, and coming up with his own plan for the final defeat of Voldemort, I think Harry became the man through whom Rowling expresses her views. And Harry makes sure that Voldemort, and all assembled, know exactly what Snape did.

Woops, I suppose Harry was too tired to retrieve the body himself. I forgive him.

Also, you may not be aware, but JKR said she thought Harry would have done something to make sure Snape's portrait was added to the Headmaster's Office.

That is what the author imagines, and it may be possible to infer that from the books, if it is in Harry's nature to forgive the man that tormented him all his school life even though Snape was protecting Harry and apparently 'luuurved' his mama. I suppose you read Subtle Science's post about 'the author as critic' essay.

I think a final duel between Snape and Harry would have got in the way of the real conflict. I agree that it was all a bit sudden and unsatisfactory - the switch from Snape as Voldemort's right hand man to Dumbledore's loyal servant and Lily's admirer was very abrupt. But while Snape's role was important, Snape's story was important only to his own redemption. Snape's role as a spy had been ongoing, and required only an explanation at that point. In the end, the revelation that Harry had to die was crucial, and the story of Snape's love for Lily explained a lot about his life and his role, but any further interaction between Snape and Harry was unnecessary and would only have slowed down the plot.

I also believe that Snape would never have confessed his love for Lily if he wasn't dying, and that Harry would have believed it was a trap if he hadn't just been shown the scenes with Lily. Therefore, Snape's death was a necessary mechanism for Harry to get the information he needed - that his death at the hands of Voldemort was required. But otherwise, it was a messy, unpleasant and inglorious death.

Thank you anabel. I find this the best explanation I have read yet. Indeed, the greater "battle" is not with Snape but with Voldemort. Snape was far too petty in his feelings toward Harry and it was only his love for Lily that made him an important figure in the story at all. In fact, it was Snape that put Lily's life in danger in the first place. It was Dumbledore who made Snape an instrument in Harry's eventual defeat of Voldemort and so Snape was always merely a tool in the greater scheme of things, as it were. Although Snape was not a coward, he was not actually heroic either. I think Hermione said it best in Sorcerer's Stone when she admitted that books and cleverness are not what make great wizards. To the very bitter end Snape was small despite all his inventiveness and cleverness. I'm not saying he wasn't good, for he was definitely a very skilled wizard, only that his soul never got beyond an unrequited love and could never see Lily's heart in Harry.

Personally I would refrain from making too general a comparison to Snape’s character to Beowulf. Firstly, Beowulf was the hero and the protagonist, forced to act under extreme circumstances and surrounded by the stench of death until his own end. In time, Beowulf becomes king of the Geats and has ruled for fifty years when a dragon, its hoard robbed of ancient treasure, devastates the countryside in revenge. Beowulf resolves to fight the monster but his sword fails him. His retainers, too, flee except for Wiglaf, who reproaches them for their cowardice and strikes the dragon a fatal blow. Beowulf then cuts it in two but sustains a fatal wound. A great funeral pyre and a barrow, filled with the dragon's hoard, is built over the body.

Snape was always an antagonist, not a protagonist. Although there may be similarities (or a singular similarity) between Snape and the story of Beowulf, I simply cannot see how the two are comparable.

Snape was a coward, always hiding from those more powerful than him, always hiding from himself. That’s why he was a Slytherin and not a Gryffindor; he was a parasite who was too weak to stand on his own. At Hogwarts he had the protection of the school, the protection of Dumbledore, and the fact that he was a professor and could so with his students as he pleased. He had a charmed lifer but it wasn’t enough for him. He always wanted more.

And he hated Harry Potter. Not disliked, not frowned upon but HATED – why? Because he was a representation of everything he hated. He was James Potter incarnate. Look back at all memories of James – he wasn’t a nice guy, esp. to Snape. He took the only girl Snape ever desired and had a child –a child, I would imagine, he thought should have been his! I am sure he resented Voldemort for taking Lily away, never having considered what it would be like to attempt to force Lily into loving him, but he hated James more because he took her away first. And then came Harry…

Remember, Snape never chose to protect Harry. If he had it his way, the little trollop would have been left to die in the forest. He was asked by Dumbledore to watch over him and he did so reluctantly. After all, if little Harry Potter wandered into a locked room containing a giant three-headed dog and was viciously mauled to death, his corpse torn so savagely as to be unrecognizable, it would be most unfortunate, but no concern of Snape’s. He can’t be expected to watch the boy every waking hour of every day now, can he?

Snape is still my favorite character and perhaps that is why I am having such a difficult time with how he died. He deserved more. He deserved, for once, to stand on his own two feet and stand up against those stronger than him, against Voldemort. He would have lost – and died – but he would have known that and it wouldn’t matter. He should have had the opportunity to choose how his life was to end rather than have it stripped from him. For Voldemort or against him, Snape should have been given the opportunity to choose!

Harry may be forgiving, and I can see his wanting to have Snape’s portrait in the headmaster’s office but to name his child Severus over Sirius made no sense to me. Sirius was more of a father than James (not by choice, mind you) and certainly more beloved than Snape yet the memory of Sirius, it seems, and the entire Black family, died with Sirius in the Ministry of Magic. I thought Harry loved him more than that.

No, Snape was no Beowulf. Sadly, Snape was no hero. Romanticize it all you want but that s the sad, cold fact of the matter.

And it makes me angry.

No, Snape was most definitely not a hero and most definitely not a Gryffindor. :no:

Except the author said he was a hero and immensely brave.

Except the author said he was a hero and immensely brave.I think you could say that Snape was what they call an anti-hero.? And I'll explain myself, I always thought it meant somebody who wasn't particularly likeable but who was shown to be brave etc anyway.

I honestly cried like a small child when Severus died. It's not like I didn't see it coming, I had expected his death for the past two years already. But when the moment came it was so tragic and it felt so unnecessary. In the end he was completely alone in that room, just like he was alone for nearly all his life. At least the last thing he saw in this world were the eyes of Harry Potter, Lily Evans's eyes.

Snape's death was really the only death in the book that deeply touched me, though all the characters were dear to me in their own ways. I kept asking myself stupid questions like did they ever get Severus back from the shack or did he ever get a portrait in the headmasters' office (at least I got an answer to that one). It took me quite a while to accept his death, even if it was something that Snape himself might have expected for a long time now.

I think you could say that Snape was what they call an anti-hero.? And I'll explain myself, I always thought it meant somebody who wasn't particularly likeable but who was shown to be brave etc anyway.

Yes.

Snape was a coward, always hiding from those more powerful than him, always hiding from himself. That’s why he was a Slytherin and not a Gryffindor; he was a parasite who was too weak to stand on his own. At Hogwarts he had the protection of the school, the protection of Dumbledore, and the fact that he was a professor and could so with his students as he pleased. He had a charmed lifer but it wasn’t enough for him. He always wanted more.

No, Snape was no Beowulf. Sadly, Snape was no hero. Romanticize it all you want but that s the sad, cold fact of the matter.


I politely have to disagree with this. For me, the point that Snape was no coward was pretty heavily made in the book. He practically stood on his own the whole time, especially after HBP when pratically everyone was against him and he still kept going. I can't see that "charmed lifer" he supposedly had anywhere?

Snape might not have been your traditional, "good" hero, but his anti-hero characteristics have been pointed out lots of times. Anti-heroes are flawed characters that perform heroic acts in spite of their flaws, not because they seem "born" for them. Anti-heroes are more modern characters than the traditional hero and usually are also more complex, multi-layered and often more interesting to the reader. IMO Snape is quite a good example for an anti-hero, and I can't find that particularly sad...

I'll jump in this discussion way later, but Snape was by no means a coward. He may have not've been the nicest character, but he was an 'anti-hero' as YellowRose puts it. He was flawed, but he showed great bravery, being able to act as a double agent to Voldemort.

an·ti·he·ro also an·ti-he·ro

n. pl. an·ti·he·roes also an·ti-he·roes
A main character in a dramatic or narrative work who is characterized by a lack of traditional heroic qualities, such as idealism or courage.

I don't know - please don't get me wrong - I say over and over again that Snape was my most favourite character but still, I don't think I could call him an anti-hero by definition. He also wasn't a villain.

And yes, I stand my my word that he was a coward. When things got tough he allowed Lily to slip away from him and into the arms of his nemesis. He then ran to Voldemort's side, driven by a desire for power and to "fit in" - his loyalties shifted, however, and he then hid in Dumbledore's shadow but not once did he ever show any true bravery other than the moment he killed Dumbledore - you can say it was because he was a double-spy or whatnot but Snape was not a couragous man. No more, that is, than Draco was. In fact, the two of them were almost identical.

But I fear we are getting WAY off track here. In an attempt to reign it in a little: I was, and still am, very disappointed in the way Snape died. He deserved better and his character deserved better. We can argue the semantics of his death until we are blue in the face but the fact sits - hs death was meaningless and unbefitting of his character. Furthermore, it left me feeling rather hollow about the whole thing.

I had more feeling for Hedwig when she was killed than Snape, and I was more attached to his character!

an·ti·he·ro also an·ti-he·ro

n. pl. an·ti·he·roes also an·ti-he·roes
A main character in a dramatic or narrative work who is characterized by a lack of traditional heroic qualities, such as idealism or courage.

I don't know - please don't get me wrong - I say over and over again that Snape was my most favourite character but still, I don't think I could call him an anti-hero by definition. He also wasn't a villain.

And yes, I stand my my word that he was a coward. When things got tough he allowed Lily to slip away from him and into the arms of his nemesis. He then ran to Voldemort's side, driven by a desire for power and to "fit in" - his loyalties shifted, however, and he then hid in Dumbledore's shadow but not once did he ever show any true bravery other than the moment he killed Dumbledore - you can say it was because he was a double-spy or whatnot but Snape was not a couragous man. No more, that is, than Draco was. In fact, the two of them were almost identical.

But I fear we are getting WAY off track here. In an attempt to reign it in a little: I was, and still am, very disappointed in the way Snape died. He deserved better and his character deserved better. We can argue the semantics of his death until we are blue in the face but the fact sits - hs death was meaningless and unbefitting of his character. Furthermore, it left me feeling rather hollow about the whole thing.

I had more feeling for Hedwig when she was killed than Snape, and I was more attached to his character!

I agree with you. I always felt Snape's spying acts were more reckless than brave and I did not see his actions as heroic or anti heroic either. I would even agree that many of his actions would fall under cowardly behavior. However, I did feel that at the moment of his death, he did show courage - he did valiantly attempt to cajole Voldemort into allowing him to get to Harry so that he could complete his mission. He knew that Voldy was on the brink of killing him and at that point he had a choice to do one of many things to save himself. But he actually put the mission first and I was actually pleased with his character - one of the few times throughout the series I was.

His death was cold and vicious, being bitten by the snake was akin to Moody's death and the left over eye or Burbage's hanging AK death - all very morbid. But I suppose we could expect such treatment at the hands of Voldemort. I realize Voldy thouht he couldn't kill Snape with his wand becaue it would have rebounded on him as he thought Snape owned it, but I would have really have loved to have seen a grand duel. I think Snape's dying the way he did was par for the course, based on his life (like all of the deaths) but still, I was expecting a grander finale as it appears many of the readers in this thread were.

Voldemort was known as the greatest Legilimens ever, I believe. Snape was exceedingly brave to face the Darkest wizard of all time, knowing full well that he could be "found out" at any moment if he did not keep his Occlumency up. Every time he lied to Voldemort he knew he was potentially facing torture and/or death, yet he continued to do so for three full years (as well as the year between the Prophecy and Lily's death). Bravery is not always about being loud or outwardly proactive. I don't understand how it is anything but courageous to repeatedly put yourself in a position that could get you killed, in order to complete a mission you have dedicated your life to.

Perhaps it was "reckless" for Snape to be a spy, but who else was going to do the job? Would it have been better if the Order had no spy, if Dumbledore was not able to know what was going on in Voldemort's inner circle? Was there any other way for it to happen? Snape trained himself in Occlumency and I think he did everything in his power to make sure his position as a spy would not be uncovered by Voldemort. However, he realized that even if it was "reckless" and could get him killed, he had to do it. That is bravery.

I don't think that he stood in Dumbledore's shadow, either. He did things which Dumbledore did not do... he was "Dumbledore's Man" for certain, but just because he was loyal to Dumbledore it does not mean that he did not act on his own or do things that Dumbledore himself was unable to do. He agreed with Dumbledore's ideals and aided Dumbledore GREATLY in his "bigger picture" plan, even if he (like Harry) didn't know the whole story.

I don't think that it was cowardly of Severus to "let Lily go" to James. (If he had tried to get her back, maybe he would be called obsessive even more than he is already.) I don't think he understood WHY Lily didn't approve of his association to the Dark side until it actually affected his OWN heart when Lily was put into mortal danger. It is not cowardly of a man to let a woman he loves go and fulfill her own heart's desires. In fact, I consider that to be very brave. He never interfered with Lily and James after they were married, never tried to hurt them as a couple or get Lily back.

A lot of what Severus did is "true bravery" in my eyes.

I do see some of what he had done to be heroic, but I feel all of it was motivated by guilt...The guilt of having told LV about the prophecy and that leading to Lilys death.

It was when he realized who LV was after that he had switched sides (Or a little after, I can't remember...I know he pleaded with LV to spare Lily..)

Who knows what would have happened had it not been the Potters in the prophecy, he might've stayed a loyal servent of LV.

That being said, I still consider him a jerk, but still his last few acts were brave..regardless of the reason behind doing what he did.

Well Snuffs (Strange calling you by another name, considering I know you IRL), I totally agree. I think a fight between Voldemort and Snape would be spectacular. One arguably the most powerful wizard of all time versus another powerful wizard. It makes me squirm to think of how it could have been written. Obviously, Snape would have lost if pitched against Big V, but just think of how it would have been done! Now that would have been a page turner...Much better than some snake taking a bite out of him so Mr. V's wand might work a little better.... -Sigh-

Exactly! See, for me I wasen't at all expecting Snape to die at all. I expected him to live and fight in the final battle along with the rest of the school. But if he had to die, at least have him die battling someone, not trapped in an enchanted cage with Voldemort's snake.

Who knows what would have happened had it not been the Potters in the prophecy, he might've stayed a loyal servent of LV.

That being said, I still consider him a jerk, but still his last few acts were brave..regardless of the reason behind doing what he did.

I agree. What if Voldemort decided to go and kill the Longbottoms? would Snape have step aside and go fetch Dumbledore saying he regrated everything? I don't think so. And I also agree that he did waht he did out of guilt (and partly too for being Lily's son).

Yes Snape was a hero, but very a flawed one. He was a git/jerk with Harry for bearly no reason at all, and to a lot of people too.

I agree. What if Voldemort decided to go and kill the Longbottoms? would Snape have step aside and go fetch Dumbledore saying he regrated everything? I don't think so. And I also agree that he did waht he did out of guilt (and partly too for being Lily's son).

Yes Snape was a hero, but very a flawed one. He was a git/jerk with Harry for bearly no reason at all, and to a lot of people too.

I always wonder why Voldemort chose to go after Harry. It seems to me that this book has an awful lot of themes, like love and in this case - choices. If Voldemort had gone after the Longbottoms - well then Neville would be dead because his mother wouldn't have had a choice, and Voldemort would have continued to make life worse for everyone. Snape would probably still be a faithful deatheater although he could still have ended up dead!

I think this comes down to one of the less prominent plot outlines which is love. His love for Lily Potter allowed him to make a great sacrifice, however the hate for James potter reflects with him treating harry like dirt with severe dislike. i think severus snape was torn between the two great emotions inside of him, the love for lily potter and the hate for James Potter. When he gave harry the glass phial with his memories in i think this shows that he cared what harry thought and he didn't want to die being seen as a "coward" and wanted harry to see that he was not all bad. In my opinion he is an anti-hero who is severley misunderstood as no one but dumbledore knew that he was in love with Lily potter and was inside torn between love and hate between harry's parents which came out in his actions to harry.

(P.S i did have a better answer but i deleted it on accident :))
(P.P.S plz reply telling me if i am wrong on anything as i read the book the first week it was out and have bad memory)

I always wonder why Voldemort chose to go after Harry. It seems to me that this book has an awful lot of themes, like love and in this case - choices. If Voldemort had gone after the Longbottoms - well then Neville would be dead because his mother wouldn't have had a choice, and Voldemort would have continued to make life worse for everyone. Snape would probably still be a faithful deatheater although he could still have ended up dead!

Well it was most likely because Harry was also a half-blood as was Voldemort (Although he wouldn't admit it to anyone...) And Neville was pure-blood.

Voldemort considered Harry a bigger threat because he was more like him in the half-blood sense.

As for if he chose Neville..I hadn't thought about that...Even if his parents were there to protect him, they probably wouldn't have had a choice and maybe the blood protection wouldn't have worked then. Where-as thanks to Snape...(Eh..Sound weird but yeah...) Lily got the choice and the blood protection saved Harry...

I just had a nice little realization: Lily would have been touched and so proud that Harry and Snape were together in the last moments of Snape's life, putting aside their animosity, and had been fighting the same fight.

I just had a nice little realization: Lily would have been touched and so proud that Harry and Snape were together in the last moments of Snape's life, putting aside their animosity, and had been fighting the same fight.

I agree. Unfortunately, JKR said on Dateline NBC that Snape hated Harry till the day he died, so even in death he couldn't put that animosity aside. When Snape died, Harry still disliked him as well and also hadn't put the animosity aside. Harry thought he'd killed Dumbledore and had just begged Voldemort to allow him to bring Harry to him to kill him too (Harry's point of view). Harry, freaked out at the morbid way Snape was killed before his eyes (like most of us!) Harry seemed almost in shock as he approached Snape - then of course was likely totally freaked out when Snape started talking to him. It was altogether a rather horrid death scene from beginning to end - Snape's eyes blanking out at the end was also quite disturbing. I still say a battle would have been better.

Well, I'll go with what I took from the reading. To me, they did have a moment of understanding. As you know, all readers' interpretations are distinct. We see what we want to see.

I was kind of expecting Snape to die, and at first I was happy about it, but then I read the chapter of the memories Snape gave to Harry. This totally changed my opinion on Snape, and I felt his death was a little insulting to Snape. I agree with some people above me who said Snape and Voldemort should have fought, instead of Voldemort having his snake...we all know what happened.

I agree with so much you just said. Think for a moment though, that if we never saw any of Snapes memories with Voldy, then perhaps he could have been a double agent...........I think he was prepared to live on either side....the Winning side........We never saw him near the battle.....If he was really on the 'Good' side, dont you think he would have somehow found a way to fight for Hogwarts? Voldy killed Lily, but James took her away......Who knows how conflicted Snape realy was. Those memories were selective and may have been prompted by who ultimately killed him

I agree with so much you just said. Think for a moment though, that if we never saw any of Snapes memories with Voldy, then perhaps he could have been a double agent...........I think he was prepared to live on either side....the Winning side........We never saw him near the battle.....If he was really on the 'Good' side, dont you think he would have somehow found a way to fight for Hogwarts? Voldy killed Lily, but James took her away......Who knows how conflicted Snape realy was. Those memories were selective and may have been prompted by who ultimately killed him

Snape was dying - why should he falsely justify himself to anyone, particularly a kid he probably expected to die shortly after him? If Snape had survived, I could see this sort of reasonsing, being on the winning side, yadda yadda. Because if you are still alive, sure, it is much more pleasant to be on the winning side. Snape was moments from death, and he knew it, when he handed over those memories. He wasn;'t going to be on any side when the smoke cleared.

Also, the memories were not all that selective if the point was to show Snape in a good light. That first memory of him with Dumbledore is pretty damning.

He didnt seem to go along too willingly with DD. It took some convincing. In life he may never have chosen sides, but maybe he wanted some kind of redemption in death....

I think that Snape started out a coward and finished a hero. He was a character who was shown to be the same as many other Death Eaters (in his memories). He joined LV (obviously) and I think it is fair to say that at this point he was by no means a hero. The point of his character though, and I had my suspicions about this after OotP, is that Lord Voldemort will always underestimate the power of love. Snape is shown all the way through to be filled with hatred, and yet DD trusts him. We are shown that it is his love for Lily that turns him. Snape represents second chances - the possibilty of reformation, and it is this which makes him a hero. He dies bravely, knowing that he has to give Harry his memory and being fully aware that he will die. He was only ever on one side - Lily's.

Do you believe it was necessary?
It was necessary as Snape would never told Harry all of this if he is alive. He is too proud to take the responsibility of all the "good" he has done and reveal that James has beaten him once again. He also probably feels that he is unworthy of Lily's love, as he reported the prophecy. Thus, similarly to the way Dumbledore's back story is revealed, Snape's truth cannot be uncovered until he died.

What did you think about how he died?
He died very fittingly. It would be awful if one of the Order killed him by mistake.

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?
I felt pity rather than sad. I never connected with him as he was really a slimy git until the very end.

I was disappointed that it was the snake that killed him. It would have been more fitting if it had been Voldemort. However, I can see why JKR needed it to be Nagini - LV would just have AKed him and he needed to survive after Voldy had left to give Harry his memories, etc. It was the only way to make the scene work, but still a little anti-climactic...

I think a final duel between Snape and Harry would have got in the way of the real conflict. I agree that it was all a bit sudden and unsatisfactory - the switch from Snape as Voldemort's right hand man to Dumbledore's loyal servant and Lily's admirer was very abrupt. But while Snape's role was important, Snape's story was important only to his own redemption. Snape's role as a spy had been ongoing, and required only an explanation at that point. In the end, the revelation that Harry had to die was crucial, and the story of Snape's love for Lily explained a lot about his life and his role, but any further interaction between Snape and Harry was unnecessary and would only have slowed down the plot.

I also believe that Snape would never have confessed his love for Lily if he wasn't dying, and that Harry would have believed it was a trap if he hadn't just been shown the scenes with Lily. Therefore, Snape's death was a necessary mechanism for Harry to get the information he needed - that his death at the hands of Voldemort was required. But otherwise, it was a messy, unpleasant and inglorious death.

I partially agree with you on that. The way Jo wrote it, a final confrontation didn't fit in. However, I really don't like how Jo wrote that because she failed to address any of the outstanding questions regarding Snape. The fact that Snape was obsessed with Lily doesn't explain or justify any of his actions throughout the series. Harry's reaction to those memories feels very unrealistic, unbelievable, and contrived. I find myself wondering if Snape somehow cast some kind of spell on Harry as he was dying to make Harry just forget all of his questions about Snape. I just doesn't work for me as written. That was one of the reasons I never liked the Snape/Lily theory. I knew it would be very poor storytelling all around and it was even more disappointing than I had imagined.

At this point, there should be no questions regarding Snape. Unfortunately, there are nothing but questions because Jo chose not to address any of the issues regarding Snape. She wanted him to be ambiguous until the end - and that is understandable - but in doing so, she brought forth a great many questionable issues regarding Snape and she just dropped all of those things in the end. It was very badly done all around.

I would have preferred that the whole obsession with Lily had just been left out all together. The story would have been better if there had simply been a final confrontation between Harry and Snape where all of the outstanding issues were addressed and all of the questions regarding Snape were answered. Snape being obsessed with Lily doesn't answer or explain anything. It just makes Snape look like even more of a coward, IMO.

Since you put it that way. Yes Snape's death does seem fitting afterall. And I can't bring myself to read that chapter either. Why would someone originally portrayed as a logical, rational being be obsessed over someone who is dead and married as well as reproduced with his rival long ago?

Exactly. :agree: In choosing to focus on Snape's creepy obsession with Lily, Jo made Snape look even worse to me. I used to love his character. Now, I am apathetic towards that character overall. He is nothing more than a pathetic cliche now. He was a complete coward up to the moment of his death. He hated Harry to the end and only helped because he wanted revenge. But he didn't even have enough courage to seek that revenge for himself. He hid behind Dumbledore and a child to get his revenge indirectly.

A very disappointing end to what could have been one of the most complex characters ever created. How sad. :sigh:

Upon completion of DH I wouldn't read too deeply into things found in the HP series anymore. If one beleives that the author based Snape's death on Beowulf, who infact died as a hero and was actually recognised after his death, then why wouldn't Snape have his body retrieved and a portrait put up? Why would the author not convey or channel 'Snape's heroism' through Albus? It is through Albus that she communicates her beliefs/ideas.

I agree. It's interesting that even Jo can't seem to make up her mind regarding Snape. But going just from what was revealed on page alone, Snape was no hero. I wouldn't even classify him as an anti-hero. I definitely don't see his actions as brave. He's just a pathetic coward in the end. His obsession with Lily was strong enough for Dumbledore to use to manipulate him to get him to do what he wanted, but it wasn't strong enough for Snape to take a definitive stand for what was right. Instead, he hid behind Dumbledore and Harry and let them do the dirty work for him while he remained safe in Voldemort's belief that he was only pretending to spy for Dumbledore. He did not take any risks and he never took a stand. He just did what he was told and waited for Harry to get his revenge for him. In the end, he managed to fool everyone - including Harry. I was just disgusted by that - and I'm leaning more and more towards the idea that Snape cast some kind of spell on Harry as he was dying. There really is no other rational explanation for Harry's reaction to all that. Either that or his brain was damaged at some point during all that.

And here we have proof that lost is the message that students are sorted into houses through their own choices rather than their personalities. Snape is brave and a Slytherin. Snape is Snape regardless of the house he is in and where he should have been.

It's really a combination though. Students are sorted on the basis of their characteristics. Slytherins are very self-serving and ambitiuous. Snape wasn't brave, but he was self-serving and revenge was a powerful motivater for him - it just didn't propel him to actually do anything courageous. Choices are significant as well, but a true Slytherin - like Snape - would not want to be in any other house but Slytherin because they look down on everyone else and see themselves as superior. That is the character trait that gets them sorted into Slytherin. Harry's choice of "Not Slytherin" was significant because it showed that he did not want to be around people like that, but I really don't think it would have mattered in the end. I think Harry would have been sorted into Gryffindor even if he hadn't been thinking "Not Slytherin". Harry had some traits typical to Slytherins, but he wasn't a true Slytherin. He didn't have the ambition or the willingness to use any means to get what he wanted. I think that is the trait that separates the Slytherins overall - the attitude that the ends justifies the means. Morals and legalities don't mean much to self-serving people.

I think it's interesting as well that Jo always had Harry interrupt the Sorting Hat when it came to his sorting. During the sorting, he kept thinking "Not Slytherin" and the Sorting Hat didn't really explain its decision. In COS, he asked the Sorting Hat but never really gave the hat a chance to fully explain why. Personally, I don't think the hat would have actually put Harry in Slytherin at all. I think it recognized that Harry did have some of those traits, but it also recognized that Harry was a true Gryffindor. I think - had Harry allowed the hat to finish what it was saying in COS - that the Sorting Hat would have completed that sentence by saying "You would have done well in Slytherin, but you belong in Gryffindor."

Snape would have been sorted into Slytherin regardless of when the sorting took place because he shared that value system. He was self-serving and believed that the ends justifies the means. He didn't care who he hurt - he didn't care who was tortured or killed - as long as Snape got what he wanted, it didn't matter. That is what separates the Slytherins from the other houses.

Except the author said he was a hero and immensely brave.

And this is probably the only time that I have not agreed with what the author said. And she keeps changing her position. First she says that he is not a hero - then she says he is. It can't be both. The problem is that she did not show him to be a hero and she definitely did not show him to be brave. She showed him to be a self-serving coward right up to the moment of his death. In failing to address the outstanding issues regarding Snape, she left us with far too many questions.

Personally I would refrain from making too general a comparison to Snape’s character to Beowulf. Firstly, Beowulf was the hero and the protagonist, forced to act under extreme circumstances and surrounded by the stench of death until his own end. In time, Beowulf becomes king of the Geats and has ruled for fifty years when a dragon, its hoard robbed of ancient treasure, devastates the countryside in revenge. Beowulf resolves to fight the monster but his sword fails him. His retainers, too, flee except for Wiglaf, who reproaches them for their cowardice and strikes the dragon a fatal blow. Beowulf then cuts it in two but sustains a fatal wound. A great funeral pyre and a barrow, filled with the dragon's hoard, is built over the body.

Snape was always an antagonist, not a protagonist. Although there may be similarities (or a singular similarity) between Snape and the story of Beowulf, I simply cannot see how the two are comparable.

Snape was a coward, always hiding from those more powerful than him, always hiding from himself. That’s why he was a Slytherin and not a Gryffindor; he was a parasite who was too weak to stand on his own. At Hogwarts he had the protection of the school, the protection of Dumbledore, and the fact that he was a professor and could so with his students as he pleased. He had a charmed lifer but it wasn’t enough for him. He always wanted more.

And he hated Harry Potter. Not disliked, not frowned upon but HATED – why? Because he was a representation of everything he hated. He was James Potter incarnate. Look back at all memories of James – he wasn’t a nice guy, esp. to Snape. He took the only girl Snape ever desired and had a child –a child, I would imagine, he thought should have been his! I am sure he resented Voldemort for taking Lily away, never having considered what it would be like to attempt to force Lily into loving him, but he hated James more because he took her away first. And then came Harry…

Remember, Snape never chose to protect Harry. If he had it his way, the little trollop would have been left to die in the forest. He was asked by Dumbledore to watch over him and he did so reluctantly. After all, if little Harry Potter wandered into a locked room containing a giant three-headed dog and was viciously mauled to death, his corpse torn so savagely as to be unrecognizable, it would be most unfortunate, but no concern of Snape’s. He can’t be expected to watch the boy every waking hour of every day now, can he?

Snape is still my favorite character and perhaps that is why I am having such a difficult time with how he died. He deserved more. He deserved, for once, to stand on his own two feet and stand up against those stronger than him, against Voldemort. He would have lost – and died – but he would have known that and it wouldn’t matter. He should have had the opportunity to choose how his life was to end rather than have it stripped from him. For Voldemort or against him, Snape should have been given the opportunity to choose!

Harry may be forgiving, and I can see his wanting to have Snape’s portrait in the headmaster’s office but to name his child Severus over Sirius made no sense to me. Sirius was more of a father than James (not by choice, mind you) and certainly more beloved than Snape yet the memory of Sirius, it seems, and the entire Black family, died with Sirius in the Ministry of Magic. I thought Harry loved him more than that.

No, Snape was no Beowulf. Sadly, Snape was no hero. Romanticize it all you want but that s the sad, cold fact of the matter.

And it makes me angry.

Exactly. :agree:

Please keep the in-depth analysis of Snape's character in Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.4 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=111003). This thread is for your reaction to Snape's death, not about Snape's character as a whole and how he developed.

Do you believe it was necessary?

Did you see it coming?

What did you think about how he died?

And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?

I thought his death was necessary (although I may be saying that because I didn't like him) because what was the point of him staying alive? He would still be tormented by the knowledge that it was his fault Lily died.

Part of me saw it comming (the part that wanted him to die) and another part of me didn't think it was really going to happen.

I guess I can say I'm happy because he did something good before he died and that was to help Harry if only because he was Lily's son. I'm a little sad because he didn't have an easy life at all and he had to live knowing that almost everybody hated him. I'm also shocked because I didn't think that after all those years he would still love Lily even though he was really nasty towards Harry.

Do you believe it was necessary?
It was necessary as Snape would never told Harry all of this if he is alive.


No, he would have told Harry some of it if JKR had chosen to go down that track, but I agree with you that Snape may not have gone into as much detail.

He would have had to tell Hatty some of it if he had found him in person before he was killed, or if had not not died at all.

Don't forget Dumbledore gave Snape the job of telling Harry that he must let Voldemort kill him - and Snape agreed to do this to finish the mission/bring about Voldemort's downfall. To convince Harry of this, he would have had to convince him that he as in fact still working on the side or the Order and that he did want Voldemort to be killed. Harry was so [wrongly!] sure of Snape's guilt that he would have needed an amazing revelation.

Harry finding out through Snape's memories was definately the more powerful and believable way to do it though - but personally I wish Snape could have lived...

I wasn't surprised at Voldy killing him, he had no affection for anyone. I didn't really feel sorry for Snape's death or history, even after Harry understood everything, because his jealousy of James was still no reason to treat Harry so bad all those years.

:no::no::no::no::no:

severus snape is the bravest man i knew..
he let his love died...

i am very sad...

:no::no::no::no::no::no::no:

Do you believe it was necessary?
In a literary sense, yes. I knew he was doomed from GoF. His character had dug such a hole for himself through error or design, that there was no other place for Snape to go.

After killing Dumbledore, even though it was on Dumbledore's orders, a Snape could not exist in a world where Voldemort fell (and we all knew that was going to happen long ago). It would have been a waste of a character like Snape to go any other way than to die helping the hero (Harry) win.
Did you see it coming?
Yes, I did. I had guessed where JKR was going with Snape (one of my few right guesses :lol:) after reading GOF, and knew that there was only one way for his character to end up at the end...a death that somehow aided the hero in a crucial act (in this case, giving Harry some crucial pieces of information).
What did you think about how he died?
I did not see him dying by snake, that was an interesting twist. I had thought he might rush in at a crucial moment toward the end and "take the sword", in a manner of speaking, setting Harry up in the final destruction of Voldemort (ie: killing nagini while the snake attacked Harry, distracting Voldemort by sacrifice of rage against his fake-master and allowing Harry the moment he needed to strike, or something more along those lines).
And how did you feel about it, are you sad, happy, or in total shock still?
No, not in shock at all, but I am a bit sad even though I knew it had to come to that end. The end JKR chose for Snape seemed a bit humiliating, killed on Voldemort's orders simply for a wand. Snape did not get his due, final stab (emotionally, verbally) at Voldemort for killing Lily...but was silenced by the snake without Voldemort ever knowing how much Snape really hated him. I felt he was owed that, somehow. She did have to find a way to kill Snape that was not instant...so he had time to pass along his vital information to Harry. This purpose was served.

If I may just say an additional word about Snape. I've always found Snape fascinating. He's a "chaotic" character, which means you really don't know what he's going to do throughout most of the storyline. Chaotics can do bad things, good things, and often both. They are the wild card and joker in the deck...they are, essentially, extremely fun to have in a book where you want to keep everyone guessing. You usually can figure out what the good guy will do, and the bad guy's role is pretty clear. The Chaotic can throw in those twists (to either protagonist's or antagonist's) and turns that bring excitement and unpredictability. For this reason, Snape was, and is, a great character. Probably far more realistic than many of the other characters in literature.

And...I would never call a man who knowingly threw away his career, his chance of a free life and the loss of probably the only man he respected at his own hand a coward. His motives will certainly be debated for a good long time, his status as good or evil, as well, but Snape was never a coward. What he did on the tower and the revulsion it caused him, and great personal pain, was not a cowardly act at all. His arguing with Voldemort to return to the battle (as we know now, to help protect Harry from harm) is not a cowardly act. I see him as very brave, in his own twisted, vindictive and tortured way.

I wasn't surprised at Voldy killing him, he had no affection for anyone. I didn't really feel sorry for Snape's death or history, even after Harry understood everything, because his jealousy of James was still no reason to treat Harry so bad all those years.

JKR said many readers would feel that way - I agree with you, that is how I felt too. I had sincerely hoped that at or near the time of his death he would show that the cause meant something for him or that he'd cared for Harry a bit. When he said 'look at me' to Harry just as he was dying, I thought that was what was going to happen - but he was still only trying to get a glimpse of Lily's eyes.

Snape's death was among the worst types of deaths in the book along with Burbage and Moody (what we know of it) and Fred. I thought the manner of death was really harsh for all of them - perhaps Snape's even a little harsher than the rest. I was kind of surprised until I figured out all of the deaths were symbolic. But still, the images were not very pleasant.

And this is probably the only time that I have not agreed with what the author said. And she keeps changing her position. First she says that he is not a hero - then she says he is. It can't be both. The problem is that she did not show him to be a hero and she definitely did not show him to be brave. She showed him to be a self-serving coward right up to the moment of his death. In failing to address the outstanding issues regarding Snape, she left us with far too many questions.

She never changed her opinion about his bravery. She said he was brave both times.

And the bolded part is only your own interpretation of what the author wrote or tried to show. It is by no means the same for others, and certainly not a fact.

She never changed her opinion about his bravery. She said he was brave both times.

And the bolded part is only your own interpretation of what the author wrote or tried to show. It is by no means the same for others, and certainly not a fact.

I agree, JKR did say Snape was brave. He also said he was not a hero and then said in her opinion he was an anti-hero (one of the characteristics of the anti-hero is not having heroic tendencies like bravery). So I agree there is contradiction. However, Snape's death was impressionable and I think there is room for interpretation so everyone can be right :).

Back to the topic, I think that his death was very complex in nature. When I read it, I wasn't sure exactly what was happening, there was a bubble over his head and then he was being bitten - but I couldn't really get that image correct in my head for a while. When he was lying on the ground I thought Nagini was still there at first (I was reading quickly) and I wondered how he was rubbing his neck while she was biting him and he was speaking to Harry all the while. But even having figured it out, I think it was one of the more technically complicated deaths in the book.

Snape was a complex, fascinating character, and I found his end to be well-written. Was it how I expected it to happen? No... but I liked it. After Dobby, it was the most emotional I got over any death in DH. I know it seems that a lot of people disagree with me, but I think that keeping up the front until his death, and not caring whether or not anyone looked at him as a martyr, made Snape the bravest, most heroic member of the OotP.

Snape's death was really the only death in the book that deeply touched me, though all the characters were dear to me in their own ways. I kept asking myself stupid questions like did they ever get Severus back from the shack or did he ever get a portrait in the headmasters' office (at least I got an answer to that one). It took me quite a while to accept his death, even if it was something that Snape himself might have expected for a long time now.
I agree ~ I think the other deaths were anticlimactic compared to Snape's. His life was such a dead end, and the murder-by-snake for the Elder Wand was so senseless - just a tragedy. His own story was so wrapped up with Harry's that it makes you wish he could have lived.

No, Snape was no Beowulf. Sadly, Snape was no hero. Romanticize it all you want but that s the sad, cold fact of the matter.
Beowulf died exactly the same way as Snape - facing a giant snake, alone except for one "warrior" - in Snape's case, Harry. And those are my facts and my opinion.

I just had a nice little realization: Lily would have been touched and so proud that Harry and Snape were together in the last moments of Snape's life, putting aside their animosity, and had been fighting the same fight.
I so agree! :)

I think he was prepared to live on either side....the Winning side........We never saw him near the battle.....If he was really on the 'Good' side, dont you think he would have somehow found a way to fight for Hogwarts? Voldy killed Lily, but James took her away......Who knows how conflicted Snape realy was. Those memories were selective and may have been prompted by who ultimately killed him
In the end, I don't think Snape was conflicted at all. I think he had been prepared to die for Harry ever since Lily died.

Her son was witness to Snape's life and death, and Harry believed Snape's memories were true and his motives were pure.

Snape did exactly what Dumbledore asked him to do - guard the school as long as possible, which he did until the Battle had started, and stay on Voldemort's good side as long as he could, and both Snape and Dumbledore knew that one might end in death. Snape's double life could have ended in death at any time, from either side, but they knew he stood no chance against Voldemort once he turned against Snape. Yet that didn't stop Snape from begging the Dark Lord to let him go find Harry - he wanted to give Harry those memories, because that was all he had left with which to help him.

After I read his death scene I didn't really know what to do with it.I actually ,for some reason,found it a bit annoying becasue it seemed all to sudden and incomplete for me,also the way it was described ,it was just so nasty.I expected him at some point to meet with Harry,which he did in the end but it wasn't really what I expected.

Snape's death was among the worst types of deaths in the book along with Burbage and Moody (what we know of it) and Fred. I thought the manner of death was really harsh for all of them - perhaps Snape's even a little harsher than the rest. I was kind of surprised until I figured out all of the deaths were symbolic. But still, the images were not very pleasant.

I'm curious to know what you mean by all the deaths were symbolic. Thanks!

I'm curious to know what you mean by all the deaths were symbolic. Thanks!

I meant symbolic in the sense that they characterized the person as JKR wrote them (major characters). Sirius and Bella died in character (laughing in a teasing and risk- taking manner); Remus was a mellow and quiet soul in the norm and his death was portrayed the same way; Fred died with a laugh of the prankster on his face; Dobby died in the act of helping Harry, which is what he always had popped into do in the series (how we thought of him), Dumbledore died in control of his death as he had controled during life; and Snape was bitten by Voldemort's Snake - Snape originally followed Voldy but at Lily's death his choice came back to bite him. The bubble protection encased him first, symbolic of how his life was encased by his choice.

There are more, but the above is an example (and each person has even more in common with their deaths, but it would be off topic to go in depth in this thread). I think Snape's death was symbolic of his life, just as the other deaths represented what we knew of the other character's lives, characters, role in the series, demeanors, dispositions, actions etc. That is in line with JKR's assertion during the Dateline NBC interview that each death was carefully considered and well thought out.

I think Snape's death was symbolic of his life, just as the other deaths represented what we knew of the other character's lives, characters, demeanors, dispositions, actions etc. That is in line with JKR's assertion during the Dateline NBC interview that each death was carefully considered and well thought out.You have made a really good point here. Snape died still playing the role of Voldemort's faithful servant. If it wasn't for the memory that Harry retrieved, no one would have known Snape's true loyalties.