Did You Grow Weary of the Repeated Miraculous Escapes?

WaikikiWizard
July 24th, 2007, 1:30 am
My wife and I read the book together (separate copies!): I found myself throwing up my hands and thinking, "Not again! Not another battle with the DE and Voldemort, and against all odds, outnumbered 3 to whatever, surrounded on all sides, locked deep within enemy strongholds, they all escape again!" The escape from Privet Drive, the escape from Tottenham Road, the escape from the wedding, the escape from the Ministry of Magic, the escape from Godric's Hollow, the escape from Malfoy manor, the escape from Gringotts, etc.:

Any one else feel there too many, incredibly miraculous escapes in the plot?

TnK
July 24th, 2007, 1:39 am
So.... You're saying they should've kicked it in the first 200 pages or so? Man.. that story would've ROCKED!

How else can you make a book seem very chaotic and open-warfare-like without miraculous escapes? At least there were sacrifices during those escapes. Dobby's death, Mad eye's death, Ron's splinching... Harry got clocked in the face by Hermione's spell... I'd say they went through alot to get out of tight jams.. but hey if you like stories that end with 2 of the main characters dead in the first hundred or so pages.. right on!

Hippogriff1
July 24th, 2007, 1:42 am
There were quite a few of those miraculous escapes, but the trio and the order do have such pretty good instincts (and brains with Hermione). I actually liked how Aberforth had the other part of the mirror (I knew that would be important somehow) and that he called Dobby to save them. The dragon escape was pretty cool, although I did expect the dragon to notice that there were three people on its back.

BoJangles27
July 24th, 2007, 1:46 am
The thing i wished we could have seen more of was raids. I loved the raid on the ministry. I just wish they could have done a couple more. The miraculous escapes are what the potter series is all about i think. They have happened in every book. Something extraordinary and unexpected happens to save them and in turn pushes the plot along. For instance, the escape from the manor left harry with a new wand and became the proper wielder of the Elder Wand

mao
July 24th, 2007, 1:51 am
I also think there was a rather too great portion of LUCK involved and the plans the trio has made were sometimes just stupid: The Ministry, Gringotts....

I found the escapes partly overdone as well, but in the end we have to admit: there were many deaths after all, so it IS realistic.

sickoftv
July 24th, 2007, 1:53 am
Yeah, it strained credibility. But then, that's nothing new for the series. The fact that the betrayer of Lilly and James Potter just HAPPENED to be hidding out as Ron's rat has always kind of rubbed me the wrong way. The riddiculously unlikely event that a person who was imprisoned for X number of years and then placed under the imperius curse for the rest of the 15 years between V-diddy's fall and the Triwizard tournament could perfectly impersonate Mad-Eye Moody after only a month or so to study the habits and personality changes that developed in the 15 years since Barty Crouch Jr. saw Mad-Eye last.

I think the escapes were mostly plausible, except for the ones in the ministry and the Malfoy Mannor, though neither of those were excecuted flawlessly. Those two bothered me a bit. It's clear that Harry got the drop on the DE's in the Cafe, Privet Drive was orchestrated by Snape and well executed by Moody, the Wedding was general chaos that almost everyone escaped from unscathed, and Gringott's... well, I just don't think that the Goblins ever stopped to think an intruder would free on of their dragons then RIDE IT. There are far more expedient ways to commit suicide, most of which involve a far lesser degree of immolation.

BelleSnowyOwl
July 24th, 2007, 1:55 am
I never thought about it, but I don’t think it bothers me. Harry defeated Voldemort at the age of one, he survived the Killing Curse – he can pretty much do anything.

WaikikiWizard
July 24th, 2007, 2:00 am
So.... You're saying they should've kicked it in the first 200 pages or so? Man.. that story would've ROCKED!

How else can you make a book seem very chaotic and open-warfare-like without miraculous escapes? At least there were sacrifices during those escapes. Dobby's death, Mad eye's death, Ron's splinching... Harry got clocked in the face by Hermione's spell... I'd say they went through alot to get out of tight jams.. but hey if you like stories that end with 2 of the main characters dead in the first hundred or so pages.. right on!

No, I was terrified that JKR would bump one of them off!

I mean that some of the escapes were not as necessary as others, if that's the correct phrase: maybe cut out some of the escaoes that did not result in obtaining one of the Horcruxes, or maybe making the escapes go smoothly. At some point, Voldemort must be thinking that he has got the absolutely worst henchmen ever! If that's true, how could he possibly believe those knuckleheads could help him conquor the whole world?

freeFALL
July 24th, 2007, 2:01 am
It made it suspenseful, i was screaming at the book praying they'd escape. I thought surely they would lose Ron or Hermione along the way.

TnK
July 24th, 2007, 2:05 am
After reading your reply though, I actually started remembering all the escapes. Only 3 of those were with Harry as himself without being invisible or having others taking polyjuice potion to become him. Godric's Hollow, Malfoy manor and Gringotts. Even then, though, in Godric's Hollow, it was just a snake keeping them there.

Cindy116
July 24th, 2007, 2:06 am
I felt that way a bit too....I mean really. But I do wish someone very close to Harry died. Or at least a more dominate character that shows Harry suffers a great deal...well more.

Mitchamus
July 24th, 2007, 2:08 am
I thought the number of escapes was awesome... proved that they were really up against the odds... it made the book fantastic to read.... on a constant high..

I also love camping.. so I thought the idea of them living in a tent and moving on all the time truly attractive way to hide!!

TnK
July 24th, 2007, 2:08 am
It made it suspenseful, i was screaming at the book praying they'd escape. I thought surely they would lose Ron or Hermione along the way.

Some little turd behind me in line when we were buying the book said out loud "I still can't believe Ron dies". My heart fell out of my shorts, then returned and pulsated with hatred for the little booger face. I went on reading the final book, WAITING the entire time for that fatal spell which would latch on to Ron. Torture.... pure torture.

Magi
July 24th, 2007, 2:41 am
The Ministry and Gringotts plans were completely suicidal, and they were extremely lucky.

However, most of the other escapes were a lot less contrived as some of the escapes from previous books. The trio actually had to rely on their skill for many of them:

Tottenham road:
Harry and Ron both sat facing the entrance, and Harry was watching the two "workmen" as they drew their wands. In this instance, the trio outnumbered the DE 3:2. Harry's alertness and speed saved them: pure skill.

Lovegood house:
The DE were realistically cranky at Mr Lovegood and thought it was yet another hoodwinking attempt (he seemed to have a record). It was perfectly plausible for Hermione to use the circumstances to modify Lovegood's memory, blast him down the staircase, and then Dis-Apparate. Yes, it would have taken great skill, but Hermione is a skilled witch, and Harry and Ron are no slouches. Yet another one that was largely skill.

Godric's Hallow:
Really really narrow! Harry was foolish to go alone with Nagini/Bathilda. Alarm bells were ringing in my head when Harry went up the stairs. But keeping in mind that Voldemort wants to finish Harry personally, the escape wasn't hugely surprising. Hermione was almost defeated by Nagini, but it was a pretty close match. Considerable luck was involved, but mostly skill and power.

Malfoy Manor:
OK, this one was pretty lucky. But they had the Dobby-factor! Equal measures of luck, skill, and outside help for this one.

Hide-outs on the run:
The trio were pretty good with their hide-outs. What impressed me most was Hermione's preparation and choice of distinations. She was very quick and foresighted at the same time. If it weren't for her beaded purse (what a heroic instrument! lol) and protective enchantments, they'd probably have been discovered much sooner than when Harry triggered the Taboo and lured Snatchers to them. Compare the Trio with Dean/Ted/Dirk/Goblins, who didn't really hide themselves at all. Pretty much all skill and good preparation.

Madeline
July 24th, 2007, 3:35 am
When you put it that way, there were quite a few miraculous escapes. I think it was easier for me to accept them because with every escape there was also some kind of setback: Moody was killed, Dobby was killed, they lost Gryffindor's sword, Harry's wand was broken. At the time I too preoccupied wondering what what else could go wrong for them.

GOODBYEsunshine
July 24th, 2007, 3:44 am
it was kinda a cycle?
it was like they were in hiding, then they were caught, then they went in to hiding again...repeated like 4 times.....but it wasn't tiring at all, cause each time was different (i quite enjoyed the time they spent at grimmauld place when kreacher was all nice x])

Thuldorn
July 24th, 2007, 5:17 am
The other thing to keep in mind here is destiny. Being a magical world and being that it was destined to be Voldemort vs Harry only the fates had to conspire to let him escape every time until they both decided to face each other. So in our world it might seem contrived but in Harry's world it simply had to be, anyone else trying to stop Harry was bound to meet with some odd disaster.

g_black
July 24th, 2007, 9:28 am
Not really, because I dont think that they were miraculous. Yeah, there was a little bit of luck involved but a lot was talent. Mainly Hermione's.
It's not like anyone escaped unscathed, either emotionally or physically. They experienced loss and I think this balanced it all.

Arial
July 24th, 2007, 9:49 am
I wish there were more...lol. This was action-packed.

Hogwarts Lake
July 24th, 2007, 9:59 am
It's not like they didn't lose anything! The wands lost, broken...Dobby, Mad-eye, Ron splinching, the sword, Gimmauld place. They just got lucky sometimes. And it wasn't just luck either - Hermione is really intelligent, a lot of quick thinking helped them. And about the dragon not feeling them: I guess to the dragon they must feel like flies or fleas :p I doubt it felt them that much. And I think the dragon was just thinking about escaping at the time so I don't think it cared who were on its back.

NimaGraven
July 24th, 2007, 10:02 am
Yes, I grew weary and I thought it was incredibly bad writing to keep doing so. I didn't feel any height of suspense.. The more they escaped the more it was set in stone "The trio will live."

It sincerely bored me to tears. The deaths that happened "along the way" weren't fleshed out, they just... Happened. No one in the trio really thought about them and no one cared.. Well, perhaps with the exception of Hedwig... Harry's owl, which just didn't strike any sadness or believability within me.

The only character that got any kind of real character development was Kreacher. I don't think we can count anyone else. They were either dead, dying or about to die... And killing people just for the sake of killing people in a book isn't a good book.

Cedric, Sirius.. Dumbledore. These deaths were all made very tragic by the fact that they were rare and fleshed out. Yes, it's a war out there, but consider the dumb ways some people die in it... Snape, arguably the second wizard to fly in the HP universe gets killed by a "fearsome" snake. So JK needed him to die slowly, but still... Mad-Eye Moody.. The best auror gets killed. Didn't seem like something that would happen to him THAT easily.. And then the trio. A bunch of 17 year olds manage to defy death more times than I can count (With one character even dying and coming back to life - oh boy, lets not get onto the Bible references!) and I can only sit here, summing this up into one sentence, and say to you:

Deus Ex Machina.

espada
July 24th, 2007, 10:12 am
They had to escape anyway, cuz most of the encounters were not very advantageous towards the trio, besides it is better to avoid unnecessary fights and focus on the goal: the Horcruxes.

LuvHP_001
July 24th, 2007, 10:15 am
I don't know. I liked each. They were all exciting and well written. I do agree that sometimes it seemed like too much and unrealistic.

mystical_spark
July 24th, 2007, 10:18 am
Narrow escapes are one thing, but some of them seemed a little far-fetched for me and some seemed to be randomly thrown in there.

*Jess*
July 24th, 2007, 10:24 am
Every single HP book has it's own share of miraculous escapes. DH, being the final installment, was bound to have more than any other in the series. I expected them, and truthfully, looked forward to them. I love seeing the way Harry and the others manage to consistently get themselves out of even the stickiest of situations. :)

rotsiepots
July 24th, 2007, 11:29 am
Did anyone say Deus Ex Machina?
Ha. I was thinking while I was reading that it should have been called Harry Potter and the Deus Ex Machina.

(I'll read the rest of your post now).

thewordpassers
July 24th, 2007, 11:41 am
umm althouh of course everybody has the right to their own opinions, i personally find this review extremely harsh.

The descriptors Jo uses in this book to me are a fantastic way of stringing somewhat simple, but beautiful words together, to leave the reader with the desired emotion, without unneccessarily complicating each sentance. I find that the beauty of her stories are in the complexity of their plot, rather than that of the text itself.

Ifink2much
July 24th, 2007, 11:47 am
I think the other deaths did balance the escapes a little(though I did at times think, 'well that was lucky'),how they happened so unavoidably,that if things had been a little different,just shows anything can happen.

ope
July 24th, 2007, 11:48 am
The harshness of this review matches the disappointment I felt once finishing it. Consider it an indicator of how much I love Harry Potter.

heavenhelpus
July 24th, 2007, 11:50 am
lol.

yeah! the trio really depend too much on luck.

is it even possible to be so lucky so many times?

marcarm
July 24th, 2007, 3:43 pm
Wow. Did anyone say Deus Ex Machina?
I found that to be the worst Harry Potter book in the series........


Now I'm sure there will be many people who will be reluctant to let what I have said to go unchallenged and that's fine. I would love to discuss my opinion further.

I shortened your post cos was just to long to be quoted in full...
You mad some really good points
some escapes seems to have been written them for a movie, but she was writing a book not planning a videogame (remember the quiddich match in CS, or the first task in GoF? in the movies were longer and over exaggerated that in the books) the one at the ministry was really hard to believe.. with the patronus running free… :-) but the escape from gringotts on a drake.. a blind drake.. was laughable, and by the way doing that the got no hurt at all! I think that the guys in hollywood will be happy!

It seems like Rowling not only make appears HP like always a 11 years old… but somehow considers their readers also like always 11 years old! Come on… while they were traveling in the tend Hp was every once in a while having those thoughts of what’s wrong or right.. what to do…. I mean we now how he feels.. but he can’t be tangled up always in the same mood always… It must progress, it’s a grown up after all.. already 17!
Some characters are not well depicted…. so in the book all in a moment they behave like no one has ever expected… and seeing all the Threads on this site, and how we confront to understand if our interpretation has sense once to have an idea of some things that happened.. but… hey where the author…? HP is basically a thriller in which several and different problems have to be solved… but a way is to solve them building piece by piece the characters and their behaving.. and another one is to get in a complicated situation and then always have a lucky way out.

And on the other side of lucky…ARE DEATH EATER TOTALLY STUPID? In the Malfoy Manor would have a simple imperius charm worked well on HP and his friends so they would have not run away of a jail instead … I mean it was great to see dobby again... but a plot must have some sense also if the story deals with magic.
If they are so evil.. why they just stun… or take prisoners. What’s the point to them to have Luna in prison, do we have to have the idea that they are somehow not cruel? Just so she can run away and fight in the final battle?

YellowRose
July 24th, 2007, 3:49 pm
Not everybody had them...Hedwig, Moody,Fred, Tonks jr & sr, Lupin etc..but it wouldn't be such a good book if they didn't get into all sorts of different scrapes :)

Kadaj010
July 24th, 2007, 3:55 pm
Yes, I grew weary and I thought it was incredibly bad writing to keep doing so. I didn't feel any height of suspense.. The more they escaped the more it was set in stone "The trio will live."

It sincerely bored me to tears. The deaths that happened "along the way" weren't fleshed out, they just... Happened. No one in the trio really thought about them and no one cared.. Well, perhaps with the exception of Hedwig... Harry's owl, which just didn't strike any sadness or believability within me.

The only character that got any kind of real character development was Kreacher. I don't think we can count anyone else. They were either dead, dying or about to die... And killing people just for the sake of killing people in a book isn't a good book.

Cedric, Sirius.. Dumbledore. These deaths were all made very tragic by the fact that they were rare and fleshed out. Yes, it's a war out there, but consider the dumb ways some people die in it... Snape, arguably the second wizard to fly in the HP universe gets killed by a "fearsome" snake. So JK needed him to die slowly, but still... Mad-Eye Moody.. The best auror gets killed. Didn't seem like something that would happen to him THAT easily.. And then the trio. A bunch of 17 year olds manage to defy death more times than I can count (With one character even dying and coming back to life - oh boy, lets not get onto the Bible references!) and I can only sit here, summing this up into one sentence, and say to you:

Deus Ex Machina.

Thank You.

The things that happened were so unbelievable ( and I haven't even mentioned the horcruxes yet) but looking back, I can only laugh at how pathetic everything turned out to be. How have Death Eaters become so inept? Are they afraid of killing people? They should have Avada Kedavra'd everyone at the wedding. It should have been a mass slaughter. And the Malfoy Manor, oh boy, did you see how they all 'feeeeeared' the Dark Lord? They made Larry, Curly and Moe look good.

Paladin
July 24th, 2007, 3:56 pm
Well, I didn't exactly grow weary of their escapes, but it made me wonder how Voldemort is actually as good at magic as he is.

It made him seem like a huge joke, I thought, and after reading something like the third time the kids had escaped practically from Voldemort's clutches, I kept thinking 'I'm glad I'm not one of his Death Eaters - that is embarrassing!'

Kadaj010
July 24th, 2007, 4:12 pm
The harshness of this review matches the disappointment I felt once finishing it. Consider it an indicator of how much I love Harry Potter.

If there is one thing I learnt about this book is the phrase and meaning of 'Deus Ex Machina'. Unfortunately for me, I never heard about it until I read DH. And I like to think I've read my fair share of books.

Does that not say something?

NimaGraven
July 24th, 2007, 4:26 pm
Like Ope, I detest the use of the phrase Deus Ex Machina.. But like him I was so utterly frustrated at the book more times than I can count. I understand that the trio are heroes.. They are MEANT to get through some of the most unbelievable stuff ever.. But it was so utterly.. So utterly -rubbish-.. It was like watching the finale of the new Doctor Who again (Which is just so utterly full of Deus Ex Machina as book 7 is and pays totally NO homage to the old series.. Again, rather like book 7!..)

I can accept that all through the books the trio have come through some of the most dangerous things that could possibly happen to a bunch of kids.... But really, some of the things in book 7 were simply a joke. It shown them not to have any real skill, but pure luck instead lol (Did they have a bottle of Felix Felicis up their sleeves, or what?!). I actually thought the point of the stuff like the DA meetings and being at Hogwarts was that they learned something of importance to actually GET them through the final battle... To have them actually win/escape the vast majority, say, 95% of it through luck is like saying.. Lets not have 6 previous books. And don't get me started on the fact that they spend about 300 pages of the book hiding around doing next to absolutely nothing... Proof that they have the magical ability of amoeba, possibly? (Now I'm starting to sound like our dearly departed Sevvy, aren't I?).. I don't know. Seems like Rowling lost faith in her own characters, in all honesty, completely cheapened out and became very lazy with her writing.. Kind of like "because I CAN, not because I WANT".. And made a bunch of money off it. Still, this is the route she wanted to go, so I suppose "I'm too arrogant to start criticising/If you could do better yadda yadda"...

And yes, Ope, I beat you to the phrase!!! ;) Still, it's lovely to see that you flesh out the points a lot better than I did in my post :).

Kyle_Potter
July 24th, 2007, 4:28 pm
Harry Potter is afterall a remarkable wizard! I think it is fitting htat he should continually escape. Come on, at the end of the day it is primairily a childrens book, and Harry is the hero. I mean how often has the likes of James Bond cheated death and escaped?

NimaGraven
July 24th, 2007, 4:32 pm
Harry Potter is afterall a remarkable wizard! I think it is fitting htat he should continually escape. Come on, at the end of the day it is primairily a childrens book, and Harry is the hero. I mean how often has the likes of James Bond cheated death and escaped?

But that's the point. IF he's such a remarkable wizard, WHY wasn't he showing real skill and just using pure luck instead? I don't think it's a problem that he continually escaped, it's just the way in which it's fashioned.. And the way the whole trio are fashioned. If anything, Neville shows more skill than all of them put together. Everything just so "neatly falls into place" for the trio. It makes it very Mary Sue.

No one is arguing about James Bond.. We all know he's in the same boat :D!

Kyle_Potter
July 24th, 2007, 4:36 pm
But that's the point. IF he's such a remarkable wizard, WHY wasn't he showing real skill and just using pure luck instead? I don't think it's a problem that he continually escaped, it's just the way in which it's fashioned.. And the way the whole trio are fashioned. If anything, Neville shows more skill than all of them put together. Everything just so "neatly falls into place" for the trio. It makes it very Mary Sue.

No one is arguing about James Bond.. We all know he's in the same boat :D!

Harry could have Bond for breakfast mind :P

But yeah I get your point about the lukcy escapes.

wickedwickedboy
July 24th, 2007, 4:40 pm
aww...but all magical/fantasy/adventures have miraculous escapes! Especially when the hero is still "finding his feet". We saw this in all the other great series, so I thought it fit perfectly well into the genre. The trick is to make the escapes unique and exciting. I think JKR did that for the most part.

PadfootLuvsMe
July 24th, 2007, 4:40 pm
I think it kept it interesting to have these escapes. I mean, they've gotten so much better as wizards (and witches) and they got lucky too, but it kept it suspenseful. Kept your attention.

I thought we might lose Ron or Hermione, so that kept me incredibly focused and pulling for an escape! And like others said, they did have to suffer from those escapes.

NimaGraven
July 24th, 2007, 4:41 pm
Harry could have Bond for breakfast mind :P

But yeah I get your point about the lukcy escapes.

lol.. Hmmm.. That'd be funny.. Harry V Bond ;).

Yeah, they didn't bode well with me.. The other thing that enters my mind is something you said.. About them being children's books. I know a lot of parents that aren't going to let their kids read book 7.. It's a hell of a lot darker than the other books .. To top it off, I would think these days it would be better of a children's book to tell it plainly like it is: Things in life suck. They don't all fall into place.

Of course, I'm the original cynic!! :D

Of course, there are other ways the book show this.. Snape for instance and how badly things didn't go well for him, but in reality, I don't think many kids are going to "get" that as much as the older generation do.. So it would be more important to show the trio like that.. Something that the younger generation can relate to and understand. Honestly, I was all for JK killing off one of the trio. I thought that would have been a brilliant thing to do from a literary point of view.

aww...but all magical/fantasy/adventures have miraculous escapes! Especially when the hero is still "finding his feet". We saw this in all the other great series, so I thought it fit perfectly well into the genre. The trick is to make the escapes unique and exciting. I think JKR did that for the most part.

Yeah, they have miraculous escapes, but honestly.. List them all in Deathly Hallows and it really is a case of Deus Ex Machina. I understand a need for them, but it doesn't settle well with me. I thought the past books have been acceptable with the use of escapes, but I think book 7 bit the biscuit to be quite frank.

As for them being exciting.. I can't see it.. There were too many so they just sort of blurred into one where it became predictable and obvious to me early on that no member of the trio were going to die... Sorry, but life is full of disagreements hehe :).

HMN
July 24th, 2007, 4:44 pm
First off, I have to say Go Hermione! She was Awesome!

Secondly, I did grow weary of it until I finally realized that throughout the series, Harry's miraculous escapes were partly due to the Horcurx inside of him protecting itself. All those moments of 'Spidey Sense' neck hairs prickling - may have been the Horcrux protecting itself. I was so glad that Jo showed the wand acting on its own accord so that we would realize later that Voldemort was actually helping Harry survive from Voldemort!

DarlingChild
July 24th, 2007, 4:46 pm
I don't think I necessarily grew weary of the escapes... but it occurred to me that Harry escaped Voldemort more times in this book alone than in the whole series previously! I thought it was kinda funny, I guess. One of the reasons I liked this book so much is the fact that it was so full of action... and if Harry had to escape Voldemort approximately 50 times for the book to be as good as it was, then it makes no difference to me. :-P

Talesin
July 24th, 2007, 4:56 pm
I must admit it got tiresome how they continued walking into one trap after another.
I almost threw the book on the floor when Harry blew everything by saying Voldemort.
But i still think the book was great, due to a really good first and last part.

However i think the point of having Harry escape the death eaters again and again, was to point out the death eaters weren't really skilled or smart.
The only reason they had power was because of the fear they inspired and cause of Voldemort, who also was the only one that really was skilled of them.

The first escape with the seven potters illustrates that really well.
Obviously it was Voldemorts plan to attack them in the air as he could fly.
However all the other death eaters had serious problems fighting while flying.
So did the order and Harrys friends, but they were better and took down a few death eaters.
Voldemort however had no problems killing Mad-Eye, then given Kingsley problems before gunning after Harry.

When breaking into the ministry they planned it for a month.
And obviously the security wasn't really high anymore as Voldemorts followers believed in their arrogance noone would try to break in.

Godrics hollow i think, shows how much Voldemort underestimates Harry when he only uses his snake as a trap.
I doubt he would ever have done that against someone who he though was good with magic.

At Lovegoods there weren't any danger at all for capture as they had an escape plan and again, the death eaters were to stupid and skilless to be able to catch them.

As for when they got captured and brought to Malfoys house.
It again shows the arrogance and how little they think of Harry and his friends, when they stuff them into the same room and only tie them up.
And they didn't even remove their belongings as Alberforth saw through the mirror that Harry needed help.


However escaping from Gringotts on a dragon was just convenient.

Anyway i think the message is, if all the good people had managed to band together against the death eaters they would have won easily.
But fear kept them from working together for the greater good.

icemice
July 24th, 2007, 8:45 pm
Yeah,, after a while, I started to think that they are somehow going to escape

sapere_aude
July 24th, 2007, 8:56 pm
Yeah, it strained credibility. But then, that's nothing new for the series. The fact that the betrayer of Lilly and James Potter just HAPPENED to be hidding out as Ron's rat has always kind of rubbed me the wrong way. The riddiculously unlikely event that a person who was imprisoned for X number of years and then placed under the imperius curse for the rest of the 15 years between V-diddy's fall and the Triwizard tournament could perfectly impersonate Mad-Eye Moody after only a month or so to study the habits and personality changes that developed in the 15 years since Barty Crouch Jr. saw Mad-Eye last.

I think the escapes were mostly plausible, except for the ones in the ministry and the Malfoy Mannor, though neither of those were excecuted flawlessly. Those two bothered me a bit. It's clear that Harry got the drop on the DE's in the Cafe, Privet Drive was orchestrated by Snape and well executed by Moody, the Wedding was general chaos that almost everyone escaped from unscathed, and Gringott's... well, I just don't think that the Goblins ever stopped to think an intruder would free on of their dragons then RIDE IT. There are far more expedient ways to commit suicide, most of which involve a far lesser degree of immolation.

At least with the Malfoy escape it had credibility. We had seen that House Elves could apparate where wizards cannot as evidenced by Kreacher escaping from the lake.

Tirwen Lupin
July 24th, 2007, 9:03 pm
Nah, I thought all those things were awesome, and required a lot of the same things that previous feats had. It wasn't just luck (although that did help); they had to be quick-thinking and determined as well. Plus, although the trio get through alive, they were injured repeatedly and lost a lot of friends who'd been close to them. The only "miraculous" thing that bothered me was Ron opening the Chamber of Secrets.

gonga
July 24th, 2007, 9:22 pm
Yeah, many things in the HP plots annoy me as much as they interest me, but I suppose with such a huge, wide, thick, highly structured and complicated plot, few thing happen randomly and for no reason.

Lillbet
July 24th, 2007, 9:24 pm
Not really. Each instance was surrounded by different circumstances. Besides which, this is a book about magic, so that sort of thing is to be expected, imo :p

Chris
July 24th, 2007, 9:31 pm
I don't think that the repeated escapes were too miraculous. In almost every case, previous books / etc set up the escape. Hermione's magical ability was breathtaking at times in this book - the bit at the Lovegoods was Dumbledore-esque - and in most instances they had help.
Did anyone count how many times Voldy and Harry confronted each other in this book?

You-Know-Who
July 24th, 2007, 9:34 pm
Did anyone count how many times Voldy and Harry confronted each other in this book?

Thrice, if you count Voldemort chasing Harry in the air.

Freaky
July 24th, 2007, 9:35 pm
Yes it is all rather surprising but I think I would have been more annoyed if Harry and co had all managed to enter these places and leave without being detected. I would wonder where all the baddies were!

AptPupil
July 24th, 2007, 10:45 pm
Some of the escapes were a bit contrived, but I thought they were very exciting. The bit in the Ministry was very Metal Gear Solid-like. Contrived or not, they were a departure from the rather slow pace of Half-Blood Prince and i think we should be thankful for that. This book really broke the formula and shows that JK Rowling has gotten better at action scenes. They were really alot more exciting than 'Flight of the Prince' in HBP or 'Beyond the Veil' in OOTP. :relax:

P.S. The most contrived aspect of the entire book was Ron and Hermione's return to the Chamber of Secrets.

lonewulf
July 24th, 2007, 10:54 pm
I found the escapes partly overdone as well, but in the end we have to admit: there were many deaths after all, so it IS realistic.


Well I'd argue that I felt there was a lack of deaths ... I just thought given the last book and the final battles/war there could have been more casualties. I was looking for more majors to die and be explained for that matter (i.e. Tonks and Lupin just .... gone!) Oh well, it's already right when they say that a book needs that bit of unrealistic overdone parts to give it excitement. Perhaps the Gringotts scene was a bit over the top though :p

cheer_2007
July 24th, 2007, 11:20 pm
I liked all the miraculous escapes.. I mean think about it ever since book one haven't the trio been making miraculous escapes?? And I mean come on.. They are in a war!! What did you think that they would not get caught at all?? Or that they would and all die? Most of the time their escape is due to skill not luck.. Hermione is the one that saves them most of the time.. I always expected that when the trio was in trouble that they would get out of it.. I surely dont think that people would underesimate them.. They have proven themselves capable to take care of themselves.. And each time it just made me more entralled in the book.. I didn't grow weary or tiresome of the miraculous escapes at all.. They just made the book better

WaikikiWizard
July 25th, 2007, 2:33 am
I think that it was also the sheer number of escapes: perhpas the book would have dropped by 200 pages if 1) the trio beat it as soon as they smelled trouble (d'oh! forgot we can apparate!) and 2) they spent less time camping.

Since it became clear that the Malfoy manor plot point was necessary for Bellatrix to see the sword and panic that Harry had stolen the cup, and thus, alert Voldermort that someone had broken into the hiding place for the cup, send Voldy's thoughts into dread that his horcruxes had been discovered, thus revealing to Harry trhu the scar that the last Hocrux was in Hogwarts, JK's editors might have urged her to get to the point by dropping some of the escapes. I mean for Pete's sake, how many times can you be so unlucky as to fall into your enemies' hands while simultaneously being so lucky (notwithstanding Hermy's prodigious skills) to escape each time?

I just think there were too many escapes: there were almost more in DH than all of the previous books combined (counting only those escapes where death or Voldemort was bearing down on Harry, e.g., the confrontation with Quirrel/Voldemort in SS; the spiders, the basilisk and Riddle in CoS; the three tasks and Voldemort in Goblet; the dementors' final attack in POA; the dementors attack, the battle at the Ministry and Voldemort's possession of Harry in OotP).

And, yes, I am sooo upset by the huge number of unnecessary and contrived escapes, that I refuse to read the book more than 20 times....this year...!:p

Hysteria
July 25th, 2007, 3:13 am
Yes, I thought the same thing whilst reading. I didnt want them to die in the third chapter or anything, but the number of times that they some how escaped against all the odds.. it must have been about half a dozen times (roughly) in the book. I think this story would have been better spread over two books, there was to much stuff that just seemed too unbelieveable (even in the HP world).

moon781
July 25th, 2007, 3:17 am
The narrow escapes are necessary. They make the book more terrifying. You can only realize how dark and dangerous things really are with how often Harry finds himself in trouble. I didn't find it tiresome, it made me nervous for the trio.

I think it also gives Harry more cred as a powerful wizard. How anyone can say anything else about Harry now, is beyond me.

HallowsBThyName
July 25th, 2007, 4:01 am
Heck yes, the narrow escapes got verrrrry old towards the end. They were almost as bad as Dan Brown's Robert Langdon in Angels and Demons. (There's some REAL Deus Ex Machina for you in that book!) The timing of those narrow escapes was also pretty contrived, I thought. Miraculous escape! and then pages of Character Exposition, over and over again. It was like stop!...go...stop!...go the whole book. Anybody here remember the movie Armageddon and how the continual countdowns were the primary vehicle for building suspense? That's how the escapes came off to me. Okay, we got from Privet Drive to the Burrow, pause for the happy wedding, run off to Tottenham Road and battle with DEs, pause for the happy times with Kreacher at Grimmauld Place, the suicide mission at the Ministry, pause for the seemingly endless camp-and-move, etc. etc. That whole pattern really didn't allow the suspense to build. It was like lighting individual strings of firecrackers instead of watching the fuse burn down on a stick of dynamite.

_Viktor_Krum_
July 25th, 2007, 4:05 am
No. If they didn't escape from these situations, there would be no Harry Potter books at all. Harry would've been killed when he was one, and Voldemort would've reigned supreme, killed all the Muggles and Muggle-borns, and it would be quite a depressing read.

Harry Potter is a hero, and heroes always make dramatic escapes. There is no denying it. It's a fact of life in fiction--if there is a hero in a bad situation, he will give it his all, and if he is unable to win, he will have a dramatic exit. It's what makes the books interesting and enjoyable. Otherwise, he wouldn't have survived long enough to even make it to Hogwarts.

Starrlight
July 25th, 2007, 4:15 am
Actually I got tired of the miraculous captures that led to those escapes. It actually got a bit dull. It didn't ever seem like the trio found anything out by using their brains--they just stumbled on people who babbled and babbled. This starting to feel like the worst book of the series to me, and I'm quite disappointed with it.

mugglemeg
July 25th, 2007, 4:23 am
Voldemort does have awful henchmen, because of the way he treats them (and in some cases, who he recruits...lots of nutjobs in that bunch!). If failure means death, then you're bound to be so nervous and unsure of youreself that you fail. That is one of many reasons why none of the escapes seemed unbelievable to me. Also, as many have said, there were always costs.

Moldywart
July 25th, 2007, 5:44 am
My wife and I read the book together (separate copies!): I found myself throwing up my hands and thinking, "Not again! Not another battle with the DE and Voldemort, and against all odds, outnumbered 3 to whatever, surrounded on all sides, locked deep within enemy strongholds, they all escape again!" The escape from Privet Drive, the escape from Tottenham Road, the escape from the wedding, the escape from the Ministry of Magic, the escape from Godric's Hollow, the escape from Malfoy manor, the escape from Gringotts, etc.:

Any one else feel there too many, incredibly miraculous escapes in the plot?

No. I didn't. Each escape was different. In Godric's Hollow, Harry knew VM was coming which allowed him to escape before he got there. They were also notified at the wedding. The Malfoy escape was brilliant with Dobby. I was a little weary of the Gringotts escape, but it was definitely different than everything else. If anything, I would think that a lot of the escapes were hectic. It was hard to understand what was going on with all of the disapparating - who was doing it, where they were going, ect. Why did Hermione do most of the disapparating? And did anybody else find that disapparation would make it really hard to find a criminal. There are only a few places that it can't be done. It must be really hard to find a criminal in the wizarding world.

the_elop
July 25th, 2007, 5:47 am
The only escape that really bothered me was the one from the Ministry. It didn't seem at all possible, and they were using each other's names openly, which I thought absurd!

Rhea7
July 25th, 2007, 5:52 am
I think the escapes were within the realm of possibilty of the skill of the trio. If Harry somehow Imperiused everyone to go knit as they walked out, I'd have a problem with that. But the tricky escapes, the help from outside sources, and the deaths in the process made it seem realistic.

Draugroth
July 25th, 2007, 5:56 am
At the time of my first read it didn't because they were getting by on luck, skill, and the ability to adapt (in that order), because that's the way the trio have always escaped. Looking back it seems that they did do a lot of escaping, but each of the escapes was different and led to casualties, so they didn't seem too miraculous only normal miraculous (if that makes sense). In the future I may get tired of it, but I hope not.

Saskuatch
July 25th, 2007, 6:14 am
I thought the miraculous escape should have only been used once that way it would have been more powerful when it happened that time, using them so much makes it feel like they were all based on luck and the efforts went into planning all those events totally useless, which would take away from ron, hermione, and harry's characters quite a bit.

Radley
July 25th, 2007, 6:22 am
Regarding the Godric's Hollow escape -- I was thinking that it would turn out that Nagini was the snake that Harry released from the zoo in Book 1. After it left the zoo, it somehow met up with LV who possessed it. Then Nagini could remember Harry (even though possessed) and help him in some way. But that didn't happen.

mwbashful18
July 25th, 2007, 6:39 am
My wife and I read the book together (separate copies!): I found myself throwing up my hands and thinking, "Not again! Not another battle with the DE and Voldemort, and against all odds, outnumbered 3 to whatever, surrounded on all sides, locked deep within enemy strongholds, they all escape again!" The escape from Privet Drive, the escape from Tottenham Road, the escape from the wedding, the escape from the Ministry of Magic, the escape from Godric's Hollow, the escape from Malfoy manor, the escape from Gringotts, etc.:

Any one else feel there too many, incredibly miraculous escapes in the plot?

If anyone dares say the plot was too contrived then you need to really figure out what you're reading because OF COURSE they need to get out of tight situations, otherwise people die and you have no story!!! Severus didn't get out of his tight situation and he died! They lost Dobby. They lost Moody. They lost Fred. They lost Hedwig. They nearly lost Hagrid. George lost his ear in a freak accident.

The only thing that I think was somewhat too miraculous was Harry coming back from the dead! Other than that, I'm not surprised that they got out of those tight escapes!

A couple of Death Eaters in the cafe was nothing, we've already known the Trio are resourceful wizards who know what they're doing actually. They think on their feet and Hermione is amazing! It really shows how much they have learned that they go setting them up so that the Death Eaters have no clue what happened after they lose their memories.

The wedding was not a close call because they were warned and it's not that difficult to Disapparate.

The broomstick thing was VERY close and I felt the tension enough to know that there was a strong possibility of death. I don't think it was too simple that they survived it, I think they had a hard time of it. But it made sense what happened.

The Ministry was just a really well planned effort. They got lucky again, and it just happened that they've been there before and knew where they were going.

As for Godric's Hollow, that was luck and also the fact that if one goes bursting from a window and then Disapparates, then they're not miraculously escaping but doing what anyone would do. What they were doing was magical normal stuff, not some miraculous thing.

As for the sword, it was very lucky that Ron showed up, but I think Severus waited until he saw Ron there because Ron had seen the Patronus too.

The Malfoy Manor escape made perfect sense because I've been waiting forever for Harry to drag Dobby into it because Dobby could easily get them out of tight spots with Apparition. They got lucky with Wormtail's hand, but that was foreshadowed with GoF and how it's a hand from Voldemort that recognized Wormtail's weakness and probably expected him to do something like not listen immediately, and then moment Wormtail flinched at an order like killing Ron or someone, then the hand would take out Wormtail for Voldemort. Safeguarding. Also, it was just lucky that they managed to take everyone by surprise.

As for the RoR, lucky they had the brooms nearby. It keeps the action tight and it was interesting and it got rid of that tiara. Admittedly, I was annoyed that Hermione said the fire would destroy the tiara and it was just that simple, but I thought the basilisk fangs were a good idea. Rather than all of them coming up with new and amazing ways of destroying Horcruxes, just going with what they know was smart. Use the sword and the fangs to do it. And whoever thinks Ron's breaking into the Chamber of Secrets was hokey is just ignorant because yeah, Parseltongue may be a special gift Harry and Voldemort share, but it's a dang LANGUAGE still, it's still possible to imitate the language, and as Ron tried it a few times to say OPEN in Parseltongue like Harry does, it worked. I thought it was a great idea!

debledore
July 25th, 2007, 6:49 am
I think the escapes made the book fun. And notice they barely escaped, needed help and certainly lost something or had a set back everytime!

When reading fantasy books, you have to suspend disbelief. Bottom line. There are certain things that don't make a lot of sense (eg. Barty Crouch Jr. posing as Mad Eye the entire school year) but so what! As a lawyer and someone who is incredibly noncreative, I have to escape my logical thinking when I read HP, the Golden Compass, LOTR, etc. But frankly, that's why I love the HP books!

aggiefan1206
July 25th, 2007, 6:51 am
Not really, but how would it have ended up if Voldemort would have actually caught Harry before Harry gave himself up. There still would haVe been horcruxes left to find. I liked the escape from the Malfoys best i think, except for dobbys death of course very sad. I think that the escapes and events really kept me wanting more.

MaWeasley
July 26th, 2007, 3:22 am
If I am being completely honest, I did find the repeated miraculous escapes a little bit much. But then, we're talking about a world of magic here, so it sounds funny to say the scenes weren't realistic enough--I mean the whole series is unbelievable.

thedragonfly
July 26th, 2007, 3:29 am
I was pretty sick of the escapes only because they signaled one thing. After about the third escape, I knew for sure that it wasn't Hermione or Ron that was going to die. I was even pretty sure that Harry wasn't going to die (or stay dead). I always had a feeling that JKR wouldn't have the guts to kill off one of the trio, and that always disappointed me. Not that I wanted Hermione or Harry to go, but I wouldn't mind seeing Ron die at all. And I wouldn't mind seeing Harry sacrifice himself to kill Voldemort and stay dead. But of course, she had to kill off characters like Lupin and Fred and Moody and Hedwig instead. *Sighs* Such a fairy-tale ending, and so predictable too.

Diomede
July 26th, 2007, 7:01 am
The only one i didnt really liked was the one in Gringotts, spectacular and exciting it was, but a bit far fetched(sp). But i passed over it quickly and said to me "why not" that's what makes stories exciting and you dont always have to prove, explain how, when, why those things happens! Just accept them because they are fun!

pyromaniac
July 26th, 2007, 8:08 am
So.... You're saying they should've kicked it in the first 200 pages or so? Man.. that story would've ROCKED!

How else can you make a book seem very chaotic and open-warfare-like without miraculous escapes? At least there were sacrifices during those escapes. Dobby's death, Mad eye's death, Ron's splinching... Harry got clocked in the face by Hermione's spell... I'd say they went through alot to get out of tight jams.. but hey if you like stories that end with 2 of the main characters dead in the first hundred or so pages.. right on!

well put..I think there were adequte "compensations" for their "miraculous escapes" ; moody dead, harry's wand broken, Ron splinching himself, Ron really showing his feelings for Hermione at malfoy manor, Bellatrix and the Malfoy's making a run for the door when Voldie goes AK happy at gringots...pretty funny scene. It also served to move the plot in sooo many ways..voldie understands who stole the elder wand, Harry gets draco's wand and so on and so forth. So no it kept me on my toes, I was expecting Ron or hermonie to die at any second so it really did not seem drawn out to me

padfootandme
July 26th, 2007, 8:23 am
I thought they had a lot of close escapes, but I don't think I ever thought "gosh, this is getting ridiculous". They did get caught and taken to the Malfoys house... even if they did escape later with Dobby's help.

Pinkerton
July 26th, 2007, 8:27 am
A lot of escapes were narrow and fantastic, but I enjoyed them all the same. It was great seeing the group able to get out of a tight situation, instead of being dragged down and trapped at every sign of danger. I think the trio not being at school also added to the numerous escapes.. no need to stay in one place or worry about what's left behind. I loved all of Hermione's apparation escapes!

eevee
July 26th, 2007, 10:08 am
i had some mixed feelings on the escapes. coming to think of it, the escape out of malfoy manor made sense, and reading it, i was like "right! i forgot dobby, but how did he know? how... ?" it was just a lot and a lot and a lot of coincidences...
and i did grow weary of the escapes, because there were so many. i didn't expect voldemort to be so mild on his victims.
ollivander for example: after voldemort had realised that he was of no use, why didn't he kill him? why did he keep luna alive anyway?
that was all a bit strange to me.

dococ
July 26th, 2007, 12:12 pm
i agree that the miraculous escapes were ridiculous...although not quite so much because they happened, but that the losses associated with them were so trivial. don't get me wrong, i cried when dobby died. i was in a funk when harry's wand was broken. moody and other deaths were unfortunate. but given the hype about voldemort and the death eaters and the very conditions of war people have mentioned, i was really dissapointed more people didn't die. not because i'm cruel and want the characters to suffer, but because it made everything feel too shallow. the core all survive more or less unscathed. it just makes the DE and voldy seem all the more weak and not at all as threatening as every other book in the series made it sound like they should be. it's the inverse ninja law/stormtrooper syndrome all over again.

Tiamatrix
July 26th, 2007, 1:00 pm
If Harry died during any of the escapes, you all would have just closed the book.
Who cares what happens when the main characters are all dead?

That's one reason why I don't read, say, George Martin anymore, he managed to kill all of my favorite characters in the first two books, there's no point getting emotionally attached to someone who's gonna die in the next 100 pages.

Anyway, a lot of the escapes were just good reflexes, great adaptation and good magical thinking. You seem to have forgotten that Harry was actually teaching other kids how to defend themselves from the dark arts. He's got a knack for it. He always had good reflexes and could do great things even with feeble spells.
And there were losses, great losses, they more than paid for each escape.

As for the death eaters being clumsy and all, not killing off everyone... That's not what they do.
Their goal was to put pure-blood wizards in charge of everybody on earth, to make slaves out of muggles and muggleborn wizards.
Sure, some of them, like Bellatrix, were pure psycho, and in it mostly for the "fun" of torture, but remember that throughout the books there were many pure-blood wizard families who agreed with Voldemort's point of view - we are better that the rest - but maybe not so much with the killings and all.
They didn't want to scorch the land, just subdue it to their will, and who would you rule over if you just killed everybody?

lindaluna
July 26th, 2007, 1:10 pm
I agree - I remember thinking - oh no - more here-to-fore unseen magic!

Less magic, more character!

IgoRetla
July 26th, 2007, 7:32 pm
Er...no. Would you have preferred that Voldemort killed Harry at Privet Drive? :huh:

Or, that he was safe, free and unencumbered the whole time? Living in Kreacher-served comfort at Grimmauld Place? There was a reason he is a 'great wizard'...and the plot took him where he had to be.

blondy359
July 26th, 2007, 7:37 pm
Like everyone said before, they have good instincts and stuff like that (although not to the same degree) have happend to Harry for like 7 years so he does have a knack for it. Also, more often than not he was caught by someone other than Voldemort and it was on his orders that no one was so kill Harry because he had to. So when he was caught, Harry did have time to manipulate the situation. And in every narrow escape something happend that was really bad...like deaths, or losing his wand or sword of Gryffindor. Although it was a miracle that Ron and Hermione survived, i thought that if THEY died, Harry would not be able to cope with the aftermath even if LV was done for good.

cybobbie
July 26th, 2007, 7:41 pm
I didn't bother since this kind of scapes were present in all books and we always knew that this ingredient was fundamental since using only magic would mean a lost, because the DE and Voldemort had more powerfull magic than the three. And in DH you have to see that the escapes had a lot of losses too, a lot of deaths and material losses too, like Harry wand and the sword, for instace. They had to use more than magic to escape, some brains and why not luck.

HermyRonnie
July 26th, 2007, 7:45 pm
The miraculous escape that bothered me the most was the Ministry of Magic. [Nevermind the fact that it seemed so contrived to me that off all people Umbridge would have the locket so she'd make another appearance and still be complete evil and we never even got to see her get her just deserved, if she even got it, but I disgress]

kaitie_lyn
July 26th, 2007, 10:08 pm
It seemed to me that JK got Harry into a lot of such impossible situations that she had to pull out some miraculously uncreative way for the characters to escape. I think Harry started to get too lucky to be believable.

in my opinion, the most far-fetched escapes were:
1. The Malfoy Manor escape (its just too easy and convenient that little Dobby is able to save all those people)
2. The Gringotts escape (its almost like that dragon was put there for Harry to escape on :))

Maybe its just because the escapes were all back to back in DH and not just at the end of the book that the pattern became so predictable.

FantasyWriter
July 26th, 2007, 10:16 pm
Well I actually got annoyed at narrow escapes made by Hagrid. Not that I wanted him to die or anything- but it was annoying to have to keep accepting that he was really dead (this time), only to have him somehow miraculously survive- yet again- a couple of pages later. I know that he's half giant, but he must have fallen over 50 feet in the air, even Harry thought he was dead when he saw him and then again with the Spiders...

katylynita
July 26th, 2007, 10:18 pm
The beginning of the book was somewhat painful because of just how many of these escapes there were. And you knew they were going to escape because otherwise there would be nothing to happen for the other 500 pages of the book. Oh and the most frustrating was when Harry said Voldemort even though he knew it was taboo

wonnimchunha
July 26th, 2007, 10:29 pm
Actually, the miraculous escapes themselves didn't really bother me.. what bothered me was that the escapes NEEDED to be miraculous because Harry was (just as always) so unthoughtful and unwary that he kept on bashing in somewhere and getting into scrapes!!!
The times that I wished I was a character so I can smack him on the head and tell him to think more carefully...


though of course if that really happened I probably would have just panicked and cried the whole time

echinopsis
July 29th, 2007, 10:12 pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ope
Did anyone say Deus Ex Machina?


Ha. I was thinking while I was reading that it should have been called Harry Potter and the Deus Ex Machina.

(I'll read the rest of your post now).

Where is Ope's post? I happened to read it only once, and I thought it was great. I am trying to collect all the posts which make the more sense to me and I cannot find it anymore. Ope, did you change your mind and delete it? Would you mind sending me an owl with your complete post if you've removed it from the forums? Thanks.

FredRocksMySocks
July 29th, 2007, 10:20 pm
Actually, the miraculous escapes themselves didn't really bother me.. what bothered me was that the escapes NEEDED to be miraculous because Harry was (just as always) so unthoughtful and unwary that he kept on bashing in somewhere and getting into scrapes!!!
The times that I wished I was a character so I can smack him on the head and tell him to think more carefully...


:lol: I think that sometimes too....when he went upstairs with Bathilda, I wanted to jump in the book and pull him back down the stairs. I think he just gets carried away, sometimes. Panicking is a very real thing, though. It's like in a horror film, though... "DON'T GO UPSTAIRS!!", that sort of thing.

RaneStari
July 29th, 2007, 10:25 pm
I agree. Why are death eaters so feared if they are so easily hoodwinked and overpowered by WIZARDS WHO HAVEN'T GRADUATED YES. I mean seriously, how could Death Eaters be overpowered by children.

That's one of the things I like about the OOtP movie, because it tries to show Death Eaters have some skill, I hated how in the book the DA was able to hold their own.

I kinda wanted MORE people to die in DH. If Voldemort was REALLY putting the heat on Harry, I'd expect EVERYONE to die. After all... it's freaking Voldemort.

Snapes_Girl
July 30th, 2007, 12:45 am
Actually, the many miraculous escapes made the book that much more suspensful for me. I was expecting at any time that someone was going to be killed (except Harry, of course). I like the action and suspense, especially when the trio were captured and taken to Malfoy Manor.

ted baker
July 30th, 2007, 12:55 am
...

The escape from Privet Drive, the escape from Tottenham Road, the escape from the wedding, the escape from the Ministry of Magic, the escape from Godric's Hollow, the escape from Malfoy manor, the escape from Gringotts, etc.:

Any one else feel there too many, incredibly miraculous escapes in the plot?

the escapes from Privet Drive and the wedding were planned. not miraculous.

the escape from tottenham court road was not miraculous - the beat the bad guys.

the escape from the ministry was by the hair on their chinny chin chin, but they blew it and lost their secret hideout.

the escape from godric's hollow was close. thanks hermione.

the escape from malfoy manor was lucky.

the escape from gringotts, well, say what you will about it, it was COOL!!!

so, to answer your question, no i did not grow tired of the miraculous escapes.

thegr8sara
July 30th, 2007, 12:59 am
Yes, I got a bit tired of the amazing escapes.

The most powerful dark wizard of all time can only have three kids escape his clutches so many times in 300 pages before he starts to look like a bit of a boob.

AptPupil
July 30th, 2007, 1:06 am
Yes, there was tons of dues ex machina, but it doesn't bother me. At least we weren't stuck in Hogwarts the entire time like previous books. In Half-Blood Prince, it didn't even seem like she wanted to write about Hogwarts anymore but was just forcing herself to. In this book, you can tell that she is enjoying her freedom and I guess with freedom comes insecurity and thats were you get all the dues ex machina.

UAM
July 30th, 2007, 2:00 pm
It was starting to annoy me. It made the Death Eaters and Voldemort look ridiculous that Harry and co. could escape so many times practically unharmed. It was very unrealistic in the amount of people who died or got injured. It was a war! More people should have died or been seriously injured.

lonewulf
July 30th, 2007, 2:25 pm
That's one reason why I don't read, say, George Martin anymore, he managed to kill all of my favorite characters in the first two books, there's no point getting emotionally attached to someone who's gonna die in the next 100 pages.

:rockon: That's one reason I love GRRM is because the stories have you so into them because you know that the stories are more realistic in that no one is safe and don't have that annoying feeling like when you watch a cartoon or TV in which you know so and so is going to always survive. Not saying that should or needs to apply to the HP world, but that type of writing has its appeal. I love it!

That being said, I do feel that a couple of the 'escapes' in this book were a bit too much ... mainly Gringotts. Just from all that we are told and left to assume from the first book and beyond led me to believe that their entry as well as path while in the bank were altogether waaay too easy and the escape just a bit too unbelievable. Wasn't a huge deal for me and felt that if one of the trio died then it wouldn't be to fantastic ... but of course all did make it soo ...

I kinda wanted MORE people to die in DH. If Voldemort was REALLY putting the heat on Harry, I'd expect EVERYONE to die. After all... it's freaking Voldemort.

:tu:Same thought ... consider Ron's family ... why wouldn't they have thrown Arthur in jail instead of letting him continue to go to work everyday??? Just felt that many more people needed to be axed for it to feel even the slightest real or dangerous. Voldie came off as a mean guy who had a major ego problem ... nothing of the most feared wizard in history who even had people afraid to utter his name.

yartha_y
July 30th, 2007, 3:02 pm
My wife and I read the book together (separate copies!): I found myself throwing up my hands and thinking, "Not again! Not another battle with the DE and Voldemort, and against all odds, outnumbered 3 to whatever, surrounded on all sides, locked deep within enemy strongholds, they all escape again!" The escape from Privet Drive, the escape from Tottenham Road, the escape from the wedding, the escape from the Ministry of Magic, the escape from Godric's Hollow, the escape from Malfoy manor, the escape from Gringotts, etc.:

Any one else feel there too many, incredibly miraculous escapes in the plot?

I agree. Here we have the adult DE's, who should know some pretty good magic, and yet the kids always got away. Far too unrealistic. I did find it tiring.

Woolensocks
July 30th, 2007, 3:10 pm
I really dont see the point in this thread . . .

IMO the intentions of such numerous miraculous escape (counting all other 6 books) rly were suposed to show us how many and different protections Harry had agaisnt Voldemort . . . Including Lilly's love, the wand one, and whole soul agaisnt shattered one . . .

Just in the end, Voldemort would be fighting with Harry in equall odds (after King's Cross) yet, in his soberb, he wouldnt check wether his AK killed Harry or not in the forest . . .

UAM
July 30th, 2007, 4:09 pm
I think the point people are trying to make is that with the other books the escapes were a tad more believable and not around every corner. There is only so much protection someone can have, and that doesn't account for Ron, Hermione and everyone else's escapes.

And I still don't understand how Harry managed to survive Voldemort's AK. It all seems a bit fantastical and convenient to me.

Ginny1984
July 30th, 2007, 4:21 pm
I think that there is a point to be made of Harrys destiny..... he was supposed to make it as far as he did, and I suppose that offered him some kind of protection? Plus he had Hermione, who is very intelligent and a quick thinker.... Harry also had lots of outside help from Kreacher and Dobby as well as Snape!
Although I do see the point of the question about there being too many escapes..... destiny can only take you so far..... :)

bryanweasley
July 30th, 2007, 5:02 pm
the escapes from Privet Drive and the wedding were planned. not miraculous.

The escape from Privet Drive was planned. The escape from the wedding was in thanks to:

1) Kingley's warning
2) the Order all being there
3) quick thinking on Hermione's part

the escape from malfoy manor was lucky.

Harry had seen a blue eye in the mirror before and so knew someone on the other end had Sirius' two way mirror.

Dumbledore knew of:
1) Mundungus' quick hands when Mrs. Figg sent a message to him after Mundungus wasn't on watch when the Dementors hit in Order of the Phoenix.

2) Dumbledore would have known about Sirius' 2 way mirror and would have kept Aberforth on the watch for it after Sirius' death.

3) Dumbledore sending Dobby to his brother if Harry was in need of a quick getaway, as Dumbledore knew Harry might need, it was well planned out.

the escape from gringotts, well, say what you will about it, it was COOL!!!

so, to answer your question, no i did not grow tired of the miraculous escapes.
Totally agree!!

Vampirjaeger
July 30th, 2007, 5:29 pm
Any one else feel there too many, incredibly miraculous escapes in the plot?

I was about two-thirds of the way through the book when I e-mailed my sister and told her the story was so contrived with all the battles and narrow escapes that I wasn't really enjoying it. Quite a disappointment after waiting so long. But I must say that the last third of the book more than made up for my initial disillusionment. Still, "Hallows" is definitely not my favorite book of the series.

FingolfinKing
July 30th, 2007, 5:40 pm
There were indeed far to many miraculous escapes. By the end of the book, you realized that there really wasn't anything special about Harry Potter. Pretty much anyone could have done what he did if they had the protection. The uncommon skill he has was love? Well, I'm pretty sure a lot of people can love. And his mother loving him is not a skill. And neither is bravery. Skill is being able to do something (learned) well. Ie, spells. Expelliarmus. Yeah, okay. Maybe Voldemort's skillS should have been addressed.

NoNEWTS
July 30th, 2007, 10:14 pm
I was afraid that would be the whole story of the book: miraculous escapes by the unqualified trio. It's been done before in other teen books. The Ministry adventure was so haphazard I winced. Couldn't they have found out where Umbridge lived and fought her there? Or have that be a scouting expedition that goes wrong?

I thought Harry could have said, "May I have a word with you in your office, Delores?" But showing characters as slow-witted is not necessarily a plot mistake.

When they faced the Scroungers (whatever they're called) I thought Harry could talk his way out of it since they believed he was a Slytherin and his father worked at the Ministry. He could have told them they dared him to say the name, they were of age and on a Grand Tour of the Wizarding world, and it would be shameful to return to his father - which is why he didn't go home to get his face fixed. Of course the plot at that point required them to get captured.

popcornzyum
July 30th, 2007, 10:17 pm
they did get a bit repetetive after a while, but i still loved it, and its my fave book.

truthheart
July 30th, 2007, 10:39 pm
Not really, because I dont think that they were miraculous. Yeah, there was a little bit of luck involved but a lot was talent. Mainly Hermione's.


I agree. One can never go wrong with having hermione as a friend. I have argued to death with readers on forums who believed that hermione was merely 'booksmart' with no real talent or power, and that while she may do well in a classroom setting, she would panic under real danger. I knew that if anything hermiones brains and quick wit would be the one to get the group out of many life and death situations as she has always done and I while reading the last book I found that my views to be correct.

JenShall
July 31st, 2007, 1:46 am
Yes, I got a bit tired of the amazing escapes.

The most powerful dark wizard of all time can only have three kids escape his clutches so many times in 300 pages before he starts to look like a bit of a boob.

:lol:
I think one of the problems with these "miraculous escapes" were that they happened so close together. It makes them feel less "miraculous", really, since there's so many of them. In a way, I saw this coming after reading HBP, when we found out that there were 7 Horcruxes, and 5 of them undestroyed. And since they're supposedly so hard to find, either we have a 2000 paged book or a few contrived escapes.

One thing that bothered me was whenever the Trio DO get caught, it's partly because of Harry's stupidity. For example, in the Ministry, Harry removes the eye from Umbridge's office. Was there really a reason for him to do that other than personal vengeance? :no: Also, when Harry said Voldemort under the taboo, I literally cringed.

There were deaths, of course, but we didn't really feel them. Except for Hedwig and maybe Fred, the dead characters weren't ones we "saw" on a normal basis. Having all of the Trio survive when they've clearly been in the most danger seems a bit too perfect.

On the whole, I felt the book had TOO much excitement, and not enough page space to do it justice. It was almost as if Harry, Ron, and Hermione needed to escape quickly from such-and-such so they could move on to the next plot point.

Book_Worm_07
July 31st, 2007, 1:57 am
I liked all of the escapes. If they hadnt escaped the book would be rather short

Savvy07
July 31st, 2007, 2:03 am
I see what you're saying, but didn't they have to have miraculous escapes? Obviously getting the Horcruxes they have to get into some troubles, but they also have to get out so they can stop Voldemort. What fun would the book be if Voldemort found them and killed them all in the third chapter? The way I see it is this. Things happened the way they happened because JK had a reason we may not know about. We just have to trust that the book came out exactly the way it had to for it's purpose.

WaikikiWizard
August 1st, 2007, 7:27 pm
I see what you're saying, but didn't they have to have miraculous escapes? Obviously getting the Horcruxes they have to get into some troubles, but they also have to get out so they can stop Voldemort. What fun would the book be if Voldemort found them and killed them all in the third chapter? The way I see it is this. Things happened the way they happened because JK had a reason we may not know about. We just have to trust that the book came out exactly the way it had to for it's purpose.

I think my problem with the miraculous escapes is two-fold: 1) Voldemort and the DEs and the Ministry are completely incompetent nincompoops if Harry slips so fully into and then out of their clutches each time, and 2) the sheer number of escapes.

Which close calls did we really need to move the plot forward? Privet Drive - maybe. The wedding - absolutely, because it occurs due to the Ministry's take-over. Tottenham Road - nope. The Ministry - nope, follow Umbridge home and bump her off (we all wanted to see that anyway!) Malfoy Manor -absolutely. Gringotts - good grief, that was a friendly dragon, what was his name, Puff? Godric's Hollow - nope, Hermione should have heard the parseltongue, grabbed Harry and off they go. Luna's house - nope. Hogsmeade - nope.

Don't get me wrong: I really liked the book. In case Ms Rowling ever reads these posts and wants to hire an assistant or something, I LOVED the book, every word! I thought it was a really srong first draft and if we just tweaked a few hundred pages here and ther, we could have finally get it into bestseller shape.:p

cgold
August 1st, 2007, 7:50 pm
I found them boring after a while which I found really surprising. The first escape when they left Privet Drive was fantastic. I felt pumped. When they escaped to Grimmauld Place it wasn't as exciting but still awesome. When they escaped from the Ministry it was still good to some extent but it could definitely have been written better. I saw a lot of potential for a more wonderful scene. By the time Harry and Hermione escaped from Godric's Hollow I was completely bored. It picked up again with Dobby's rescue. I found that whole scene when they were captured and escaped very exciting and wonderful. The escape from Gringott's was moderately exciting but I saw a lot of potential for that to have been a more interesting scene. So overall, I did get weary but I think if they had been written differently it would not have been that way. It wasn't that there were too many, it's just the way some of them were written. I can see how the movies may easily fix those scenes but I don't trust the movies so have little faith.

Cheers :tu:

Iqen
August 1st, 2007, 8:11 pm
Well, what did you expect? In my opinion, these close-shaved escapes makes the book ever more enjoyable. Some of these escapes were all planned out.

I felt that way a bit too....I mean really. But I do wish someone very close to Harry died. Or at least a more dominate character that shows Harry suffers a great deal...well more.
A lot of people have died in the last of the series. Okay, maybe they weren't as close to Harry as the other members of the Trio. But he was fond of all of them and he has quite suffered.

WaikikiWizard
August 4th, 2007, 11:50 pm
I also think that another problem presented itself: because there were so many pages devoted to escaping, we are invited - in the last 100 pages or so - to believe all manner of terrible truths about Dumbledore, Snape and Harry. Then, at breakneck speeds, Harry believes, offers himself up, comes back and defeats Voldemort. Man, I wish that last fight had been 20 pages long, filled with Harry's explanation to Voldemort and everybody listening of what was going on. Voldemort wouldn't have believed him and would still end up destroyed, but it would have been cool to see him struggling with his impending downfall longer.

lynn_farie
August 5th, 2007, 3:27 am
I think the lucky escapes are kinda like the essence of Harry Potter. If there were none, there wouldn't be any of those exciting, near-to-death scences that make you devour the chapter and forget to breathe, or else the trio would be long dead. So, let's not bash them, please!

PrezLeefun
August 5th, 2007, 4:07 am
I never grew tired of the escapes..... I am always happy when they come.

va32h
August 5th, 2007, 4:11 am
Well, yes and no. I mean, I certainly enjoyed reading about the various miraculous escapes more than I would have enjoyed reading about one wizarding duel after another (yeah, yeah, dodging red and green jets of light, blah blah, latin words).

I did feel as though JKR was a little too conscious of the fact that this book would one day be a film, and inserted several movie-friendly action sequences.

The escape from Privet Drive was an exciting beginning - Moody's death was rather abrupt but then - we only see what Harry sees, and Harry didn't see Moody die. And I can buy that the matter-of-fact way deaths are handled in the book is a reflection of the circumstances . Cedric, Sirius, and Dumbledore all died at the end of the adventures, when there was time for reflection and assessment of what the death meant to the characters.

In Deathly Hallows, the deaths occur in the midst of equally or more pressing problems. Moody is dead, but the specter of a traitor in the order is raised, and the trio have a horcurx hunt to plan. Fred dies, but the battle is still raging on, Lupin and Tonks are dead, but Harry needs to focus on his impending suicide.

But back to the escapes - I don't know that alternative scenarios would be any more interesting. Reading about the trio researching? Reading about the trio quckly nipping in and out of Gringott's with no problem?

The trio get themselves into trouble through bad planning and lack of foresight, which is not exactly a rare thing for teenagers. The invasion of the Ministry sounds like a very adolescent plot - they only worry about getting in, not what they will do once they get in, or even whether it is likely that Umbridge has the locket on her at work. (thank goodness she does, eh?)

But I also understand that JKR has to work in the stuff she wants to work in. She wants us to see what the Ministry is like under Voldemort's rule, and she can only do that if Harry gets in there somehow. She wants to show us Malfoy Manor and how the Malfoys are suffering under Voldemort's displeasure - and she can't do that unless Harry gets in there somehow.

And once he gets into all these places, he has to get out, obviously, because he isn't scheduled to die until the very end.

I would definitely agree though - that the exciting narrow escapes in previous books were not as transparent plot devices as they are in Deathly Hallows Deathly Hallows is a book that is very aware that it's a book. Which is to say - events occur that are clearly there only to further the story, and not an organic part of the story.

Saraswati
August 6th, 2007, 3:37 pm
There have been Deus ex Machina from the get-go. It has been my only major complaint with the series.

Mike_NYY
August 6th, 2007, 3:41 pm
I would have gotten sick of them if it wasn't for the many many deaths in the book. I actually thought that it was brilliantly done.

Solace_Forever
August 6th, 2007, 3:42 pm
NO, i did not grow weary of the escapes, i loved them actually, it was like a thriller book. Even though we knew Harry had to face Voldemort in the final battle it was how he got there that made it interesting!

Voldemorts8thHorcrux
August 30th, 2007, 12:41 am
Definitely. Yes, Harry's a powerful wizard, but someone else with his power wouldn't be able to kill Voldemort, escape Death Eaters and snatchers and stuff like that. I mean, seriously.

Sesshoumaru
August 30th, 2007, 12:47 am
It's the case with anything, you can't go killing off the main Heroes (Except maybe at the end)

Even knowing that though, they were definitely still thrilling, and not the least boring to me.

iceblueangel
August 30th, 2007, 7:27 am
I thought it was a really srong first draft and if we just tweaked a few hundred pages here and ther, we could have finally get it into bestseller shape. :lol:

I think my problem with the miraculous escapes is two-fold: 1) Voldemort and the DEs and the Ministry are completely incompetent nincompoops if Harry slips so fully into and then out of their clutches each time, and 2) the sheer number of escapes.


Yes, I understand what you meant, I have to agree with you on this, although I must confess I love the book :whistle:

On my first reading, I totally understand & it was believable to me that the many escapes are possible, but thinking about it after I finish reading it, & by now I have reread it like 7 times, it feels a bit unreal, those escapes...

LoonyMagic
August 30th, 2007, 12:01 pm
I was growing a bit weary. However, it still was an exciting read. These close escapes were thrilling to read. I was disappointed that some of these close escapes were unrealistic and that Harry didn't always prove his worth in these escapes (Hermione seems to always be there to help Harry).

JJFinch
August 30th, 2007, 12:10 pm
So.... You're saying they should've kicked it in the first 200 pages or so? Man.. that story would've ROCKED!

How else can you make a book seem very chaotic and open-warfare-like without miraculous escapes? At least there were sacrifices during those escapes. Dobby's death, Mad eye's death, Ron's splinching... Harry got clocked in the face by Hermione's spell... I'd say they went through alot to get out of tight jams.. but hey if you like stories that end with 2 of the main characters dead in the first hundred or so pages.. right on!

Seconded!

If you want the heroes to always lose, then you should read something morbid and boring like the Series of Unfortunate Events (which is the complete opposite - and I really don't recommend it, btw).

Anyway, the heroes had help all the time, and don't undermime their own abilities either. The escape from privet drive was luck, skill and Harry's amazing wand. The escape from Tottenham court road was Harry being alert. The escape from Malfoy Manor, was due to help coming at the right time (Dobby) and skill - and they didn't escape unscathed. Dobby died and Hermione was tortured - I wouldn't call that a miraculous escape. Granted, Gringotts was a little too easy, but it was still a very tough escape. And the Ministry was very close. It was the Polyjuice potion that saved them really - if HarryRuncorn hadn't been such an intimidating figure they probably wouldn't have got out. And again there was a huge sacrifice - they weren't able to return to Grimmauld Place and they didn't have any food with them because they had expected to return there: if Grimmauld Place had remained their headquarters or if they still had easy access to food, Ron might never have deserted.

padfootrules
August 30th, 2007, 2:29 pm
I hate to say this but the fact that wizards more powerful than the trio fell into the clutches of easy deaths but the trio miraculously always surviving was a bit too much for me to swallow. Also Ginny always missing the "green jet lights" all the time makes me laugh cause that is just way way to far fetched. I loved the book but the book kinda made the "most powerful wizard to have ever walked Hogwarts" a total pansy...:lol:

Leon_Lionheart
August 30th, 2007, 3:34 pm
I didn't think there were too many escapes. The number of escapes matches the number of catastrophes, which is what I would expect. ^____^

Seriously, though: I see there being a lot of escapes, but few of them unbelievably miraculous.

1. The Seven Potters - He and Hagrid got pretty banged up on this one, and Mad-Eye bit it early on. And then there's the sheer damage to the motorbike, George's ear, the loss of the Firebolt, and the death of Hedwig. This was a rather close call. If it hadn't been for the decoys, Voldemort would have made a beeline for Harry, and he'd have been as dead as Hedwig. There was a bit of a miracle here in the form of Harry's wand doing its golden fire trick, but that was for sheer advancement of plot. (Built up for Ollivander and the Elder Wand hunt, you know.) There's a reason this is one of the better-loved chapters in the series...

2. The Wedding - Sheer chaos provides easy cover for a quick getaway, especially when you can Apparate. And I doubt the Death Eaters would have Avada Kedavra'd the whole crowd, for Cripe's sake, why don't they just put Voldemort in the Minister's box and dare the whole wizarding world into mass rebellion? The point of masking the takeover in the first place was to pepper the whole place with fear and confusion, as I believe Lupin pointed out. Mass slaughter may seem to some to be an exciting thing (speaking from the perspective of Constant Reader looking down through the page of a fiction novel, o' course), but it's hardly intelligent. Besides, the Death Eaters don't want to kill off their valuable wellsprings of magical blood, do they? It's only the mudbloods and blood traitors they hate. They were even willing to give half-bloods a shot, provided they didn't cause trouble, and Voldemort himself gave Neville Longbottom a chance to recant and be a good little boy, simply because he was pureblood.

2. Tottenham Court Road - Harry was under the cloak. We knew this. And he reacted with a certain amount of reflexive speed to get the drop on his enemies--a display of skill, proving that Harry is not always just The Boy Who Lucked Out. Still, the fact that Harry was invisible and the fact that the trio outnumbered their enemies three to two puts this escape a far cry and a half from the label "miraculous."

3. The Ministry - I say it's pretty miraculous they got in, let alone out. For all the time they're reputed to have spent doing recon work, you'd think they'd have a better plan to show for it. Still, it wasn't that bad. Went bad by the end of it, and there's a clear loss for their efforts: they lose the safety of Grimmauld Place and are left to wander with nothing but a tent and whatever protective spells they know to guide them. Oh, and I'm not sure, but I think Ron gets splinched here. That's sufficiently painful in my book. Nevertheless, an eyebrow-raising amount of luck (quite a lot of it bad, but quite a bit of it good) played its part. Lots of improv on the part of the trio, too. Good improv, by my judge of it.

4. Godric's Hollow - Oh, come on. How can anyone count this as "miraculous?" First of all, they're fighting one snake. One snake. One snake that is intent not on killing, but on restraining. And second of all, even given the fact that their opponent is a single snake, they still have trouble. Hermione's spell clocks Harry a good one in the face and snaps Harry's wand in the process--massive loss for the Hero's Team, by the way. What would have made it miraculous is if they'd managed to kill Nagini and scratch one Horcrux off their list. As it was, they barely managed to get out of their with their skins intact.

5. Gringotts - They lost Gryffindor's Sword here, and all suffered rather painful burns from the enchantments on the treasures, but perhaps the outstanding-ness of their flight on the back of a dragon makes this seem a bit too unbelievable. Well, the dragon was partly blind, and I doubt it would have felt three decidedly insubstantial insects sitting on its back through its rock-hard scales, so I'd say it's pretty good as far as an escape goes. Still, I say their plan to get into Gringotts was a bit simplistic--though without Griphook's insider knowledge of the clankers and the enchantments in the vault, they'd have been buried in just as much turd as treasure--and maybe just turd, if they couldn't get past the dragon. Thief's Downfall might have hurt things, too, if it hadn't been for Griphook letting them know what it was and what it did right after hitting it.

None of the above can really be called miraculous to the point of being accused of deus ex machina. OTOH, Malfoy Manor was quite the miracle, though we knew from chapter two that the mirror would play some part (and even before that--Jo told us herself). Dobby showed up, saved the day, and then died. A loss indeed, and it does balance with the escape somewhat, but that Dobby just pops into the story for a chapter and then bites it, well, makes him look all the more like a deus. (He's not; the mirror connection is enough to ward off that label, though whether or not you like how things went doesn't have to depend on whether or not Dobby was a deus ex machina.)

Then we have the lake. Ron popped in at exactly the right moment. This would have been the world's worst deus ex machina, even counting the legendary Patrick Danville, but for two redeeming factors:

1. The hints prior to the incident in question--the inexplicable gift of the Deluminator and the person they heard bumbling around outside their tent. Ron didn't pop out of nowhere; he just seemed to.

2. The explanation given after the fact--an explanation of the above two, in other words. It was, I think, a good story. The sheer fact of the Deluminator's existence prior to the incident at the lake puts this somewhat beyond the label of deus, though I will admit that it's dangerously close.

Ron and Dobby were the book's Two Big Miraculous Not-Quite-But-Almost-Deus-Ex-Machina Escapes.

That leaves the Big One--the Wand of Destiny, the Deathstick, the Elder Wand. I'll leave that for the threads that deal with it specifically. I think I've dealt sufficient damage to the "repeated miraculous escapes" argument, at any rate. The summary of the above:

Only two escapes stretch credibility enough to really raise an eyebrow, and even they aren't deus ex machina. The rest of them are sufficiently well-done to work as they are, and all of the escapes, except for the case of Ron and the lake, resulted in some kind of notable loss or injury--sometimes both.

vividcolour
August 30th, 2007, 5:10 pm
Wow, Leon_Lionheart, such a wall of text :lol:
You're really working on the theories, don't you?

I'm going to put it short. There are lots of luck, but I have been in a grave situation before, and I can't believe how much 'luck' I've got because I slipped out that problem nicely. But Harry Potter is a fictional book. The escapes are written brilliantly, I'd say. Boring miracles? Oh, the miracles are well done. If there's no miracle, it won't going to be a good old Harry Potter. I like the miraculous escape, miraculous survivor, miraculous luck, etc etc the way it is. ;D

LudwigVan
August 30th, 2007, 5:25 pm
Luckily for me I started growing weary after I finished all the books :). Although I love the books I have to admit that, rereading them all (innumerable times) I realised that since book 5 suddenly all the Death Eaters started missing (miracoluos by inches) all the time! they are supposed to be powerful and skilled wizards. Nevertheless being well written by Rowling doesn't kill the moment nor the climax of the battle and escaping scenes.

rainie_hp
August 30th, 2007, 5:30 pm
One doesn't need to be an extra ordinary wizard to escape from the clutches of DEs and goblins. Everyone who was evil in this book has been known to underestimate the trio. Harry has a quick mind, he isn't the brightest out there but his quick thinking has saved him a lot of times. Even Hermione hesitates in these matter, but Harry is practically trained in this since his 1st year. Most things that Harry has done has been done on the scene, they weren't exactly pre-planned, he didn't plan on how to fight the basilisk, he just did it! Similarly, in these escapes, Harry's quick thinking saved them most of the time. Hermione did it once too in Xenophilius Lovegood's house, but that required knowledge. Rest of the time though it was done under pressure. It wasn't as if Harry suddenly became good this year at miraculous escapes, it has always been shown to us that Harry fights, gets hurt then when he sees a chance, he doesn't think twice but take the chance and escape!

Leon_Lionheart
August 30th, 2007, 6:24 pm
Wow, Leon_Lionheart, such a wall of text :lol:
You're really working on the theories, don't you?

Well, I hardly equate Stating The Obvious with Working On The Theories, but I do tend to be long-winded when doing either of the two...

BookemDanno
August 30th, 2007, 8:22 pm
Miraculous escapes are to be expected. Who would write a book about an unlucky hero? It would have to be a short-story. I'm amazed that there are people who bother to read books or watch movies without utilizing suspension of disbelief.

lil_snuffles
August 30th, 2007, 8:45 pm
They definatly kept me on the edge of my seat while reading them. They were very well written and I wasen't expecting any of the outcomes of the escapes (i.e. Malfoy Manor)

SuzieLovesSnape
September 2nd, 2007, 1:51 pm
No, I love them all!!

somerandom592
September 2nd, 2007, 2:02 pm
Yes, there were a lot of them- but so what? Who doesn't expect a dozen convenient escapes in a series like this? But the way they escaped was fairly original, not to mention exciting...
This is a book, not real life, so lighten up!

Unless you would like the story :

Harry and Ron went to save Hermione from the troll in the girls' bathroom, but unfortunately the troll killed them.
That would've been a greeeaaattt book, woudn't it?

FirstConsul
September 2nd, 2007, 3:26 pm
I can accept that all through the books the trio have come through some of the most dangerous things that could possibly happen to a bunch of kids.... But really, some of the things in book 7 were simply a joke. It shown them not to have any real skill, but pure luck instead lol (Did they have a bottle of Felix Felicis up their sleeves, or what?!). I actually thought the point of the stuff like the DA meetings and being at Hogwarts was that they learned something of importance to actually GET them through the final battle...

Like Umbridge said, Hogwarts is school, not the real world.

hoppitydee
September 3rd, 2007, 12:20 am
Actually I wish there had been more miraculous escapes. As in nobody died :whistle::whistle:
OK I know that just wouldn't work
the only miraculous escape that annoyed me was Draco Malfoy's. If he got to live after all his slimyness then surely the Lupin's deserved a bit more credit.

bilius
September 3rd, 2007, 3:13 am
I agree that there were too many miraculous escapes. It almost seems that luck played a greater part in the defeat of Voldemort than the best laid plans of Dumbledore.

Wright1771
September 3rd, 2007, 10:13 am
Look, it's a series of adventure books, like the old serials......sorry, you're too young for all that.....Indiana Jones had more escapes than hot dinners and he was a Muggles!

FirstConsul
September 3rd, 2007, 12:26 pm
Look, it's a series of adventure books, like the old serials......sorry, you're too young for all that.....Indiana Jones had more escapes than hot dinners and he was a Muggles!

I guess people are no longer keeping up with the Joneses :D.
I suppose they're now "Rolling"?;)

arshia
September 3rd, 2007, 1:14 pm
I did!!!...But i did want them to survive, on the other hand(whole of the trio), so i couldn't get upset /bored at their lame escapades:D

loonyluna0114
September 3rd, 2007, 3:22 pm
I remember reading the escape from Gringotts and thinking it was getting a little OTT. When I think back there were an awful lot of escaping moments weren't there?!
I can see why she did it, for dramatic effect, but still, there could have been other ways to create tension than for them to escape 'by the skin of their teeth' yet again!!

iceblueangel
September 4th, 2007, 3:45 am
Unless you would like the story :

Harry and Ron went to save Hermione from the troll in the girls' bathroom, but unfortunately the troll killed them.
That would've been a greeeaaattt book, woudn't it?

:lol:

Its a good book anyway...Yeah, I agree with some here, I wish nobody died :p

dasfres
September 4th, 2007, 5:39 am
Yes, I agree with the topic. The first few hundred pages became very monotonous and repetitive. It picked up later, but in the beginning, there was simply too much sitting around followed by lucky escapes made available by some obscure piece of magic that Hermione had read about 4 or 5 years before.

MissHufflepuff
September 4th, 2007, 2:24 pm
ok.... 1) it's a story 2) we're supposed to be amazed 3) there were still a whole load of deaths! lol!