Narcissa Malfoy's Revelation

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Mitchamus
July 24th, 2007, 3:11 am
I was just struck with the thought about Narcissa malfoy...

As soon as she feels Harry's heart beating, she know that he IS the chosen one... that the prophecy IS true, and that Voldemort cannot kill Harry.

That must have been a massive realisation for her.... to know that LV will be killed by harry.. and there is nothing that LV can do about it... LV cannot kill harry.... She has seen (I'm inferring here) that LV must also have collapsed at the time, as the DE are concerned about him... so something bad must have happened to LV at the time of the curse...

It must have been a massive shock for her... and a great revelation as she now KNOWS that there is hope for not only saving her son, but for the hope of her family... to escape the persecution of their "Fall from Grace"

It would have been nice to see the Malfoy's switch sides int he final battle seen... but after all they are Syltherins are are only interested in saving their own necks :P

ravclawprefec
July 24th, 2007, 3:29 am
I think at the time, Narcissa was mainly only concerned with whether Draco was alive. They didn't really switch sides, but they did stay at Hogwarts when all the other death eaters fled. I think they'd been unhappy with Voldie for quite some time, but afraid to switch over.

adonaichild
July 24th, 2007, 3:31 am
The Malfoy's are such an interesting family - don't you agree?
For claiming to be Voldemort's followers, there seems to be a lot of uncertainty...Malfoy had SO many chances to kill people, but he didn't...and at the end Lucius & Narcissa just wanted to make sure Malfoy was OK...I thought that was really interesting. And they kind of just sat around at the Great Hall with everyone. I just thought that was really interesting.

steft2
July 24th, 2007, 3:36 am
I too think that her sole motivation was the safety of her son. I think that she was not a death eater (even though she does believe in the pure blood stuff), and had seen Voldemort all but devestate her son with fear, and mentally unbalance her husband (even further than he was to begin with), so that when she had the answer she sought she rewarded the provider of that answer by lying to Voldemort in the hopes that Harry could get her to her family without any further death or injury.

Mitchamus
July 24th, 2007, 3:44 am
I too think that her sole motivation was the safety of her son.

Just as in HBP....

Rhaella
July 24th, 2007, 3:50 am
I also don't think Cissy was a Death Eater. I think she'd have turned up in that scene in Goblet of Fire had she been, and all in all, she seems like the sort of character who keeps her hands clean and leaves the action to other people (charging Snape with looking after Draco, and even giving Draco her own wand here, perhaps).

It's nice to see her, as someone seemingly so reluctant to act, finally commit one of the most crucial acts of the battle, regardless of her intentions.

I'm not sure that any real desire to see Voldemort destroyed was a part of her decision to betray him. I think all she could think about by then was Draco.

It's interesting how incredibly loyal to kinship the Malfoys turned out, considering how cold they had appeared at first.

snapegirl
July 24th, 2007, 3:50 am
I think at the time, Narcissa was mainly only concerned with whether Draco was alive. They didn't really switch sides, but they did stay at Hogwarts when all the other death eaters fled. I think they'd been unhappy with Voldie for quite some time, but afraid to switch over.
I agree. She was worried about Draco.I don't think it had anything to do with Harry being the Chosen One. Her only concern was Draco and getting to the castle to see if he was ok.

hershlag
July 24th, 2007, 3:57 am
I agree. She was worried about Draco.I don't think it had anything to do with Harry being the Chosen One. Her only concern was Draco and getting to the castle to see if he was ok.


agreeance! lol
I thought that part was really well done.
It seemed that the worse situations for the world of Harry Potter brought out the best in all characters..even death eaters!
The malfoly's the whole time seemed REALLY uncomfortable and really sick of everything.
Although i wouldnt like having a snake like mass murderer living in my house either

Kaonashi
July 24th, 2007, 4:11 am
I think towards the end, she just wanted Voldemort gone, and she knew Harry was her best bet.

Think about it. Whatever attachments that the Malfoys had towards Voldemort died from the point that Lucius was in jail and Voldemort gave Draco that task that he was hoping he would be killed while performing, all to punish Lucius for what happened in the Department of Mysteries...which wasn't even his fault!

Then, to add insult to injury, he takes over their manor and makes it clear to all that he has absolutely no respect for them, and makes jokes at their expense. He even smacks Narcissa and makes her go over and check the body. It would serve no purpose to lie to gain entrance into Hogwarts, since if she simply said he was alive Voldemort probably would have smoted him on the spot and would have had Hagrid carry the dead body inside anyway. So I think she figured that a live Harry inside the castle with friends that would help him would tilt the odds more in his favor.

The part where Hogwarts is actively under siege and Lucius and Narcissa are running around screaming for their son made me cry.

Sub Zero
July 24th, 2007, 4:13 am
Narcissa was and always will be concerned first and foremost with her son Draco. When she heard Harry's heart beating, she just seized the opportunity to ask him if Draco was alive. Then she helped Harry out by faking his death. I won't really say she did it on purpose, but she knew the only way to get to Draco would be for Harry's death to be staged.

At this point in the series, the Malfoys had lost all closeness to Voldemort. He was practically punishing their family for doing absolutely nothing. Snape wound up saving Draco's life, so I'd be willing to bet Lucius and Narcissa would do anything to further protect the well being of their only son.

I always saw the Malfoys as pulling away from Voldemort. They lost all trust and respect in him, I think.

MrsJoelMadden
July 24th, 2007, 4:42 am
Still feigning death on the ground, he understood. Narcissa knew that the only way she would be permitted to enter Hogwarts, and find her son, was part of the conquering army. She no longer cared whether Voldemort won.

I was going to write an explanation, but the best way is to use the text right from the book. Narcissa's choice to lie had nothing to do with realizing about the prophecy and whatnot. Her only concern was her son, and has been all along, and for that I admire her, especially in that moment because she took such a big risk in not exposing Harry just so she could find Draco. And again it is Voldemort's own stupidity because he did not understand love and therefore never saw Narcissa's betrayal (so to speak) coming.

lunagranger
July 24th, 2007, 5:20 am
the idea of narcissa realsiing that harry is the only one who can kill voldemort might be true..but I thinl the only concern she had was that she could have draco saved...more than anything else...but it was good that mother's love did hit her to realisation!

Credo Buffa
July 24th, 2007, 5:21 am
Narcissa is such an interesting character. I imagine that she is the kind of person who, having grown up among pureblood supremacists, ended up trapped in a life that ended up harming herself and her family. In the end, she probably only ever supported Voldemort because her husband did, because she had to in order to stay safe. She only ever really cared about her family, and like MrsJoel so aptly puts it, that was Voldemort's big mistake.

Xceptional
July 24th, 2007, 5:26 am
Well i guess JK Rowling kind of showed that they had LOVE and as a family they loved each other so they couldn't possibly be on the side of Voldy. And it kind of shows that the other Death Eaters dont have families cause they can't...

flamelda
July 24th, 2007, 5:46 am
Well i guess JK Rowling kind of showed that they had LOVE and as a family they loved each other so they couldn't possibly be on the side of Voldy. And it kind of shows that the other Death Eaters dont have families cause they can't...

Actually we never saw other Death Eaters families close up. Despicable as they may be, there may be some others like the Malfoys who regretted joining Voldemort. They had little choice once they joined because he had control over them and their families. There also were some really nasty ones who would be DE's no matter what (see Bellatrix).

I think Narcissa was mostly worried about her son and getting to him, but at that point, after all the worry and threats that Voldemort had put them through, she would have been quite happy for Harry to defeat him and put an end to it all.

twinsrule26
July 24th, 2007, 5:53 am
Narcissa was and always will be concerned first and foremost with her son Draco. When she heard Harry's heart beating, she just seized the opportunity to ask him if Draco was alive. Then she helped Harry out by faking his death. I won't really say she did it on purpose, but she knew the only way to get to Draco would be for Harry's death to be staged.
I believe that She Did do it on purpose . She wanted to get to her son so badly that she had no trouble lying to Voldemort about Harry being dead .
I think towards the end, she just wanted Voldemort gone, and she knew Harry was her best bet.

Think about it. Whatever attachments that the Malfoys had towards Voldemort died from the point that Lucius was in jail and Voldemort gave Draco that task that he was hoping he would be killed while performing, all to punish Lucius for what happened in the Department of Mysteries...which wasn't even his fault!
I learned a long time ago in real life never to anger a Mother or threaten her child . Narcissa was both angered and her only child was threatened by Voldemort! I believe that is the worst thing Voldemort could have done in regards to the Malfoy family! Narcissa saw that Voldemort had failed again to kill Harry and she new that Harry could and most likely would defeat Voldemort . This she new would give her the chance to save her son ,so she risked her life to lie and say Harry was dead.

Revenge is sweet is what I think she was thinking .

twins:p

SinLooWho
July 24th, 2007, 5:55 am
I was going to write an explanation, but the best way is to use the text right from the book. Narcissa's choice to lie had nothing to do with realizing about the prophecy and whatnot. Her only concern was her son, and has been all along, and for that I admire her, especially in that moment because she took such a big risk in not exposing Harry just so she could find Draco. And again it is Voldemort's own stupidity because he did not understand love and therefore never saw Narcissa's betrayal (so to speak) coming.

Yeah, I put something about this in the Final Death Scene thread...

Anyway, I think that Voldemort's lack of understanding of love was reitterated here. Narcissa is only concerned for her son. It's a mother's love, a love that all children should have begun life knowing, and Voldemort did not even have that. I think that when Harry told her yes, that her son was alive in the castle, she felt that she owed him something for the news. It was just such a joy to know that her son was not among the dead and Harry was the one that had given her that. Where as all Voldemort ever did was strip her family bare. I mean he even punished her sister, who was so loyal to him.

Sub Zero
July 24th, 2007, 5:58 am
I believe that She Did do it on purpose . She wanted to get to her son so badly that she had no trouble lying to Voldemort about Harry being dead.No no, what I meant was that she didn't help Harry on purpose. I know she lied on purpose, but she did it for her son and the family. Her main goal wasn't necessarily helping Harry out.

Joanna
July 24th, 2007, 6:20 am
That scene was really heart-wrenching for me. It showed a lot of character depth for Narcissa. Her main concern and love for Draco kind of humanized the entire Malfoy family.

kenneth90
July 24th, 2007, 7:00 am
I think Narcissa have known how dangerous Voldy was. She and Lucius hated Voldy when they saw how Voldy treated their son for revenge. I am pleased to see the Malfoys realised the truth.

LuvHP_001
July 24th, 2007, 7:53 am
She knew that things were going to go downhill from when Lucius failed at the Department of Mysteries and Draco failed to kill Dumbledore. She knew Voldemort would punish them and near the end, she probably did sense that Harry would defeat Voldemort and her main concern became her family and especially Draco.

They are SUCH an interesting family.

reducio
July 24th, 2007, 8:05 am
hey its been confirmed naomi watts will be playing narcissa in HBP? what are your thoughts?

Ibelieveinmagic
July 24th, 2007, 8:12 am
Forgive me if this has been mentioned already...must get dinner on lol

I think Narcissa Malfoy showed that a mother's love for her child transcends good or evil in their heart. Lily and Narcissa couldn't have been more different in morals, values and beliefs, but I believe Narcissa would have laid down her life for Draco. The same as Molly for Ginny, Petunia for Dudley, Dumbledore's mum for Ariana.

All very different women with one thing in common. They loved their children more than anything.

hey its been confirmed naomi watts will be playing narcissa in HBP? what are your thoughts?

really? She's Australian. I thought JKR only wanted British actors. Hmmm. I can see her looking like Narcissa.

JCalder
July 24th, 2007, 8:40 am
I don't think the Malfoys wanted Voldemort to return anymore than Harry did, Lucius talked the talk, but I think he liked being big and powerful rather than Voldemort's puppet.

I have to think that Narcissa's decision to not rat out Harry is because Harry saved Draco. She doesn't obviously know that, but I think she understands that Harry, and the others fighting against Voldemort, are the kind of people who do the right thing, and would protect her son.

bertzie
July 24th, 2007, 8:51 am
Narcissa, is not all that different from Molly. the only real differences are the dangers their children are in.

marcarm
July 24th, 2007, 9:51 am
I was going to write an explanation, but the best way is to use the text right from the book. Narcissa's choice to lie had nothing to do with realizing about the prophecy and whatnot. Her only concern was her son, and has been all along, and for that I admire her, especially in that moment because she took such a big risk in not exposing Harry just so she could find Draco. And again it is Voldemort's own stupidity because he did not understand love and therefore never saw Narcissa's betrayal (so to speak) coming.

I was pretty sceptical of how Rowling choose to make NB behave, after all … if she had told Hp was alive, he would have been killed with another killing curse!!!! And the winning troops would have enter in the castle anyway!
But you really make this point clear… I guess she could wait no longer to get in the castle and see the son.
Maybe NB figured what would have been to see Draco and the floor in the castle and having to check if he was alive ore dead, both Draco an HP had to face in the books a lot of things (on opposite sides) that probably were too big for two teenagers.. no matter what events force you to do… a mother will always care for his sons and daughters

SKasparRollins
July 24th, 2007, 9:57 am
Narcissa betraying Voldemort like that was a great twist. It fit perfectly too, a nice end to the increasingly sadistic treatment of the Malfoy family through the last two books.

Speaking of which, I was kind of hoping Lucius would die. I've always thought he was absolute scum for ruining his own family the way he has.

Ifink2much
July 24th, 2007, 10:16 am
The malfoys are the biggest cowards in the books.And I can't for the life of me understand why they weren't punished.The were death eaters,why was malfoy at the station in the epiloge?why were they let of scott free?I can't belive they lived,none of them deserved too.

beth83
July 24th, 2007, 10:23 am
Narcissa needed Harry to be dead so that she could get to Draco. In the end her son was more important to her than her husband and sisters 'pure blood' mania as it were.

Personally I always had a kind of feeling that she was never really comfortable with the whole idea that Voldemort was going along with. It was fairly evident form the first chapter of Half Blood Prince.

She took a great risk at declaring Harry dead. She did that as a mother, not as a wife of a deatheater.

heavenhelpus
July 24th, 2007, 10:34 am
i think it was more of concern for her son.

she wanted to see her son again, and harry had brought her the news that her son was safe. thus, she felt an obligation to harry, and proclaimed that he was dead.

tommyphillips
July 24th, 2007, 11:12 am
i think all the malfoys are just interested in saving themselves, they are cowards in a way, i think that they would have gladly left the death eaters but they knew they'd be killed in no time

ellana
July 24th, 2007, 11:37 am
I believe that pretty much all Narcissa was thinking about at that moment was her son. Again, she risked all because of her mother's love for him, something that just wouldn't enter VM's head.

But the extra bit was not just about getting into Hogwarts to see him - if VM was not defeated, she must have know there was a good chance he would kill Draco at some point because he just never had the psychotic evil to be a DE and do VM's bidding. VM's defeat was her family's only chance, and in the moment she knew Harry survived an AK for the second time, she must have realised there actually was something to the "chosen one" thing, and that Harry would win.

Majn00n
July 24th, 2007, 11:42 am
Narcissa actually reminds me of Harry's mother, Lily. Looking out for her son first and foremost, lying to save him.

She did whatever she could to save her son. Thankfully for her, it didn't include killing herself to put a protection on Harry. Any mother would have done that.

I think that at the end of the day, Malfoys were in a catch 22 situation, Aurors were after them, and if they betrayed Voldemort they were going to be killed. And as you say, she realised she might finally be free from Voldemorts reign of terror if she let Harry go on..

Murzim
July 24th, 2007, 12:03 pm
Narcissa broke Voldemort's orders when she went for Snape to protect Draco. She chose her priorities then.
And loyalty is a two way thing, the way the Malfoys were treated by Voldemort would not have suited their own idea of selfimportance. The name Malfoy did not command any respect at the end.

I'm not sure Narcissa thought, that Voldemort had lost when she realised that Harry was alive, IMO she couldn't care less! I was suprised however that Lucius followed her lead and did not fight anymore.

eowyn_weasley
July 24th, 2007, 12:21 pm
i felt really sorry for the malfoys in this book because baisically they were being kept prisioner by lv in their own home and i think all of them including lucious just wanted out of the des. In the first chapter i thought that it was cissy floating over the table as a way of keeping draco and lucius in check. Im very surprized they survives i felt sure voldemort would kill one of them as retribution

Fleur du mal
July 24th, 2007, 12:27 pm
She knew that things were going to go downhill from when Lucius failed at the Department of Mysteries and Draco failed to kill Dumbledore.

She knew before that, in my opinion. At the end of HBP, we hear how bad Voldemort's wrath was after learning that Lucius had lost the diary. It wasn't only Narcissa caring for her son either - in a series that has put so much emphasis on doting mothers, and more frequently, dastardly fathers (Tom Riddle sr, Tobias Snape), we come to see Lucius trembling for his only son just as much as his wife. In the Shrieking Shack, all he worries and schemes for is how on earth he can have the battle end and go looking for his son.

I cannot emphasise enough how both of them entered the battle without wands. Narcissa, who was probably lined up next to Lucius, gave up hers so that Draco could better protect himself. And when they were running through the chaos, only screaming for their son - that really, really moved me, and confirmed a point that I always wished would be made, that even the most horrible people can be capable of the deepest, most sincere love and concern for their family.

I think this capability for true love is what earned them all as an 'intact' family the reprieve they got. Not only do they all survive, the last we see of them is how they are sitting among the other survivors, looking insecure if they even belong there, but not even fleeing (and at least Lucius should be fleeing at this point, if he still had the smallest clue what was good for him). But it no longer mattered, all that mattered was that they were still together.


And Naomi Watts lived in Australia for the greatest part of her life, but was born in Wales.

Hermione Snape
July 24th, 2007, 1:14 pm
I wanted at least one of the Malfoy's to live through the war; and I got three. Luscious = er, Lucius, sorry ... LIVED! That made up for the fact that Severus was killed.. SOB!!! I am a Slytherin by nature; and I am not horrible or elitist. I am so pleased she actually showed the Malfoy's as a close knit family.

I think though, that Jason Isaacs worked his charm on her slightly. Don't you?

wallflowerrr
July 24th, 2007, 2:29 pm
I was so surprised and so, so happy to see that Lucius and Narcissa, actually REALLY loved Draco, and that he was all they really cared about.
I always thought they never really loved him, so the two of them running up the stairs together to find Draco was really touching.

Kashman
July 24th, 2007, 2:48 pm
The malfoys are the biggest cowards in the books.And I can't for the life of me understand why they weren't punished.The were death eaters,why was malfoy at the station in the epiloge?why were they let of scott free?I can't belive they lived,none of them deserved too.

I agree that they were the worst cowards, Draco screaming to the Dreath Eater who caught him just after Harryhad saved his life that he was on their side, made me sick, I was cheering when Ron's punched him. But as to why he was on the platform, it was 19 years after the battle, so he may have already served a sentence at Azkaban. But I doubt it as his parents would have ensured that Draco was not held responsible for any of his actions they would have ensured they were held responsible for any punishments for him, by saying anything he did was on their say so, or orders, or that he had to do what he did or that Voldemort would have killed him and his family if he didn't do what he did.

Fleur du mal
July 24th, 2007, 3:01 pm
I wanted at least one of the Malfoy's to live through the war; and I got three. Luscious = er, Lucius, sorry ... LIVED! That made up for the fact that Severus was killed.. SOB!!! I am a Slytherin by nature; and I am not horrible or elitist. I am so pleased she actually showed the Malfoy's as a close knit family.

I think though, that Jason Isaacs worked his charm on her slightly. Don't you?

:rotfl: I am SO looking forward Jason giving up Lucius' cane, reluctantly, only brought to do it by Narcissa's touch. Heck, Lucius without his cane (which will be useless with the head (to which the wand is attached) missing)!!! What an imagery for the impotency and misery he is reduced to in DH!

jlpforpotter
July 24th, 2007, 3:02 pm
Again, LV is destroyed, ultimately, by a mother's love for her son.

First, Lily sacrificed herself for Harry.

This time Narcissa lied in order to save Draco.

LV would never have imagined this to happen because he had never experienced himself nor did he believe in the power of love to evoke powerful magic.

Ibelieveinmagic
July 24th, 2007, 3:06 pm
And Naomi Watts lived in Australia for the greatest part of her life, but was born in Wales.

Ah we still claim successful people as ours if they've spent more than 5 minutes in Australia. :lol:

Fleur du mal
July 24th, 2007, 3:27 pm
Ah we still claim successful people as ours if they've spent more than 5 minutes in Australia. :lol:

If the Brits followed that line of policy, the Brits-Only casting of the movies could have looked differently ;)

the_last_hallow
July 24th, 2007, 3:31 pm
I was just struck with the thought about Narcissa malfoy...

As soon as she feels Harry's heart beating, she know that he IS the chosen one... that the prophecy IS true, and that Voldemort cannot kill Harry.

That must have been a massive realisation for her.... to know that LV will be killed by harry.. and there is nothing that LV can do about it... LV cannot kill harry.... She has seen (I'm inferring here) that LV must also have collapsed at the time, as the DE are concerned about him... so something bad must have happened to LV at the time of the curse...

It must have been a massive shock for her... and a great revelation as she now KNOWS that there is hope for not only saving her son, but for the hope of her family... to escape the persecution of their "Fall from Grace"

It would have been nice to see the Malfoy's switch sides int he final battle seen... but after all they are Syltherins are are only interested in saving their own necks :P

That was very well spoken. I really started having a soft sport for Narcissa and Draco in book sx. I just wish that in the epilogue Draco and Harry spoke. I was never expecting Draco would turn out good when reading the first couple of books, back in 1 and 2 he was the king of evil at Hogwarts, now look at him. His family just mislead him, I'm glad he lived.

Ifink2much
July 24th, 2007, 4:49 pm
His family just mislead him, I'm glad he lived.

Surely it's not that simply.Draco was responsible for his own acts.Lots of ppl in the books have gone against what they were taught.Draco had a mind of his own,he chose not to use it.He was very happy to be mislead,he's just as guilty as his parents.

Henry514
July 24th, 2007, 4:53 pm
Narcissa and the Malfoys showed themselves for who they really were, a family. Tom Riddle never questioned his ways or the fact that his followers would always be loyal. He couldn't imagine that the Malfoys' resentment of his mistreatment of them would lead to their betrayal of him. Thus, Riddle is undone by the giant chasm that replaced the part of him that could love, or even comprehend it.

BellatrixLeNo
July 24th, 2007, 5:20 pm
Narcissa wanted to see Voldemort defeated. It was clear since the beginning of this book that the Malfoys were no longer in Voldy's good graces. The fact that Voldemort took lucius's wand from him pretty much shows us that Voldemort doesn't value lucius's life.
Voldemort taunted them, saying how they weren't happy with their lot, how they seemed so unhappy with Voldemorts return to power etc etc.

Of course Narcissa wanted to see Voldemort brought down. He is the biggest threat to their family. Even when Draco was in the RoR you can see how crabbe (or was it goyle) treated him saying the Malfoys were finished.

She lied about Harry being dead because she wanted to see her son and also knew that as long as Harry was still alive the Malfoys had a chance.

The thing that surprises me is that Narcissa didn't seem shocked to find Harry alive. Wouldn't you expect a jump or scream of shock? Or something to indicate some surprise?
Is it possible she expected that Harry would survive another Avada Kedavra?
Could she really have been so downtrodden by LV that seeing a person survive the AK doesn't shock her?

stunnedtina
July 24th, 2007, 5:25 pm
I always seen them as terrible parents to lead Draco into these feelings and thoughts about other human beings whether they be wizards/witches or muggles and then in the end they turned out to be good parents. All they wanted in the end was the safety of Draco. When she checked Harry for a beating heart, to see if he was dead or alive and she found him still alive....her only thoughts was Draco and Harry being the best chance of her getting inside Hogwarts and saving Draco.

I think throughout the whole book it showed the huge reluctance on the part of the Malfoy's to be involved anymore in Voldemort's rein of power and on his side. I don't think they wanted the good side. After all they'd been on the bad side for so long but seeing what this would mean for their family, for their son and being so frightened of Voldemort and that showed clearly in all three of them throughout the book, they wanted nothing but to get out.

I was impressed actually because I never believed Narcissa or Lucius capable of that. I knew Draco was but I didn't see it in Narcissa and Lucius until this book.

BellatrixLeNo
July 24th, 2007, 5:26 pm
The thing that surprises me is that Narcissa didn't seem shocked to find Harry alive. Wouldn't you expect a jump or scream of shock? Or something to indicate some surprise?
Is it possible she expected that Harry would survive another Avada Kedavra?
Could she really have been so downtrodden by LV that seeing a person survive the AK doesn't shock her?

Quicksilver
July 24th, 2007, 5:39 pm
I think that LV lost the Malfoy's loyalty when he sentenced Draco to kill DD. Snape says that he was not meant to succeed.

LV doesn't understand the power of love, especially a mother's love for her child. Love is his downfall.

Narcissa_M
July 24th, 2007, 5:50 pm
I was going to write an explanation, but the best way is to use the text right from the book. Narcissa's choice to lie had nothing to do with realizing about the prophecy and whatnot. Her only concern was her son, and has been all along, and for that I admire her, especially in that moment because she took such a big risk in not exposing Harry just so she could find Draco. And again it is Voldemort's own stupidity because he did not understand love and therefore never saw Narcissa's betrayal (so to speak) coming.

I agree with this. I loved that moment, and I commend Narcissa for consistently caring about her son. I like her, and I was glad the Malfoys survived. In their own way, they are a loving family. They certainly look out for one another.

Tubasrock77
July 24th, 2007, 5:50 pm
I loved the parallels between Lily and Narcissa. Both were motivated to protect their child at all costs, and both helped bring about the downfall of Voldemort throught their love for their child. Once again Voldmort is defeated by that which he does not know. As I have stated on other threads, I liked how JKR showed that not all Slytherins are evil.

Before I read DH, I thought that at least one Malfoy would die, and didn't really care. After the scene where Narcissa lies to the DE's about Harry being dead, all for her son. I realized that I was glad they didn't die, and that they saw the error of their ways.

SongDove
July 24th, 2007, 5:56 pm
The part where Hogwarts is actively under siege and Lucius and Narcissa are running around screaming for their son made me cry.

I found there to be something touching about that, too. It made them humans to me and again, made them very different from Voldemort because as awful as the Malfoys have been, they do love their family.

Badgers_Rule
July 24th, 2007, 7:04 pm
She just wanted to know if her son was alive thats all that mattered to her.
She did save Harrys life by saying he was dead and for that she is one of the unsung heroes of the story.

Imagine what would have happened if she said he was still alive.

Ifink2much
July 24th, 2007, 7:14 pm
She just wanted to know if her son was alive thats all that mattered to her.
She did save Harrys life by saying he was dead and for that she is one of the unsung heroes of the story.

Imagine what would have happened if she said he was still alive.

I suppose Harry could have given his little speach there and did what he did later in the great hall.
Maybe she did make a difference but she wasn't trying too.I don't have much respect for her though,she may care about her own son but she doesn't give a damn about anyone else.Everyone at Hogwats could have died and she wouldn't have been bothered.She should have brought Draco up better.How hard did she try to stop him from being a death eater?At any rate she never thought him right from wrong.

firebolt57
July 24th, 2007, 7:17 pm
Yeah. I think Narcissa was only concerned about her family at the moment. I was surprised while reading it though....I was like 'narcissa? ok...I'll take it....' thank goodness for her! I'm so glad Naomi watts is playing her! She's my favorite actress! luv!

MrsJoelMadden
July 24th, 2007, 7:34 pm
I have to think that Narcissa's decision to not rat out Harry is because Harry saved Draco. She doesn't obviously know that, but I think she understands that Harry, and the others fighting against Voldemort, are the kind of people who do the right thing, and would protect her son.

I have actually wondered breifly if when Harry told her Draco was alive and in the castle that she might have guessed Harry had saved him and that's how he knew. Thoughts?

elfears91
July 24th, 2007, 9:12 pm
i was actually surprised when Narcissa had been chosen to check if harry was dead. you would think that voldemort would choose a death-eater like Bellatrix to make sure your enemy if officially dead (considering how much trouble it had been to "kill" said enemy) and not the distraught mother who has shown a few times that she cares more about her son then the dark lord. I suppose this would relate to voldemort never really knowing a mother's love.

SKasparRollins
July 24th, 2007, 9:17 pm
:rotfl: I am SO looking forward Jason giving up Lucius' cane, reluctantly, only brought to do it by Narcissa's touch. Heck, Lucius without his cane (which will be useless with the head (to which the wand is attached) missing)!!! What an imagery for the impotency and misery he is reduced to in DH!

And Lucius was so awesome in the OOTP movie with his wand-sheath and the fact that he somehow managed to fight the entire battle with one hand on his wand and the other on his cane, which there is no evidence to suggest he actually needs.

But I thought the humiliated Lucius in this book was justice, somewhat. When they described him as so sad-looking in the first chapter I could still picture Jason Isaacs doing it.

MaWeasley
July 24th, 2007, 9:29 pm
Does Harry owe Narcissa a life debt?

Keazlegirl
July 24th, 2007, 9:31 pm
I liked this moment. It showed that a trust had developed between Harry and Narcissa. By having the conversation at all, they put their lives in each other's hands at the moment.

Harry had grown to trust her true concern for her family by what he had witnessed through Voldemort. She had learned to trust Harry by watching him through the years, and probably from seeing him risk his own safety to save Dobby and Griphook when he left the mansion.

Does Harry owe Narcissa a life debt?

I would say no, because Draco's life had been saved, and remember, since Harry had willingly given his life for basically everyone, in some sense, she owed him a life debt.

Fleur du mal
July 25th, 2007, 12:00 am
I very much like that thought, Keazlegirl.

I can only imagine how much Narcissa must have disliked Harry, simply because her son and he didn't get along one bit. I know this sort of feeling, quite passionately loathing someone who never did anything to me but someone I care for. Still, she has kind of observed all he's done over the years AND what happened in Malfoy Manor. That boy who had done all this would not let her child die.

And the same is true for Harry. Over the years, he's noticed the packages from home that Draco received, he's heard of Narcissa asking Snape to make the Unbreakable Vow, and he's seen rather much of her via the Horcrux channel. He, too, can safely assume that this woman will play along with his game, since she and her family are so clearly uncomfortable with Voldemort and his regime.

I really like the idea that these two, who were scowling at each other in HBP still, have perceived enough of the other one to make that unspoken deal and know the other one will stick to it.

Mitchamus
July 25th, 2007, 1:20 am
to all of you who say she only cared about her son answer this:

Why did she lie?

IF she didn't and someone else killed Harry (another Death eater for example) She still would have got to see Draco inside the castle...

In short.. id would have made no difference what so ever if she lied or if she told the truth...

She lied not for her son, but to help fight LV.

Harry telling her that her son was alive did not help her rescue him....

If Draco was dead, would she still have lied??
YES for revenge...

so her only motive for lying is that she knows LV could not kill Harry, and she knows everything about Harry is true

moon781
July 25th, 2007, 1:30 am
If it wasn't for her son, she wouldn't have asked first, she would have only said Harry is dead.

She lied because she wanted to get back to the castle to her son. We see this in HBP, when she goes to Snape and begs him to help Draco. Her son was her priority, not Voldemort. I think it makes her more human, and more saveable.

The Malfoys cared most about each other. Not quite the best people in the world, but that caring gave them a bit more than say Bellatrix and probably kept them alive.

Personally, I would have like to see Lucius get it, but you can't have everything in life.

SinLooWho
July 25th, 2007, 1:58 am
I think there is the possiblity that she came to some new conclusions about her families loyalties in this book. I think that she realized what everyone had said about Harry being the chosen one became somewhat clear to her in that moment, as like many have noted, she witnessed Harry survive the AK from the DL a second time. I think in that moment she realized that all of Voldemort's talk of Harry's survival being fed by lies was indeed wrong; that somehow he did possess something that the DL did not understand. That is not to say that in that moment she understood it herself, but I think she realized that the DL was blowing a lot of smoke and had no real answers about Harry and why he lived, or if he really did possess magic unknown to the DL.

I also think that when Harry told her yes, that her son was alive in the castle, she felt that she owed him something for the news. It was just such a joy for her to know that her son was not among the dead and Harry was the one that had given her that reassurence and hope. I think a part of her too felt she owed him for giving her hope.

Hysteria
July 25th, 2007, 2:03 am
I loved this bit in the story. Didnt understand what she had done the first time but after reading it again it became clearer. I think it shows that at least 2/3 of the Malfoy family arent as evil as they were pumped up to be. Even Dumbledore knew that Draco couldnt kill him.
It was a perfect way to express realisation and show that LV would not be able to kill Harry, by having one of his 'most loyal' followers betray him (in a way).

LottaFagina
July 25th, 2007, 2:08 am
Still on page 2 of this thread, but Narcissa Malfoy and Molly Weasley both surprised us at the lengths they went to for the safety of their children. Good can be bad and bad can be good.

So will Harry, Molly and the whole gang be shipped off to Azkaban for their Unforgivables??? :whistle: Nah, thought not...

PrezLeefun
July 25th, 2007, 2:09 am
There is only one thing I like about Narscissa Malfoy.... she is a mother FIRST. Nothing else ever mattered to her except keeping her son safe. Thats all.

ashabear68
July 25th, 2007, 2:10 am
So how come Lucius who was so evil for the whole series wasn't killed? Or at least punished? He just gets to chill in the great hall?? What the heck? I can understand Narcissa and Draco, but I don't understand why Lucius wasn't even captured or anything seeing as how he was a known evil death eater throught the series.

RiverIsis
July 25th, 2007, 2:44 am
I agree with that Narcissa's first thought was for Draco - the panic of not knowing where her son is because he is not in the clearing and if he is alive.

Once she has confirmed this, she has to relay her message such that Lord Voldemort does not know she is lying --- I personally think that she didn't have to worry about Legilimens/Occlumency because she gave LV the answer he was expecting, and he thought her (& her family) a loyal supporter. It would not occur to him in his arrogance and his moment of triumph that a family member of his most loyal supporters would not tell him the truth.

Kaonashi
July 25th, 2007, 4:19 am
I also noticed that Voldermort tortured the Malfoys ALL year, and when Harry and everyone else escaped the basement in the Manor, he confined all of them to the house for weeks and tortured them to boot, because the book makes a point of mentioning just how haggard and bruised both Malfoy parents looked, and it was probably only a matter of time before he killed one of them anyway.

Narcissa saw a chance to get rid of Voldemort for good and took it, and she did it in typical Slytherin fashion. Slytherins can be brave, yes, but they can be very sly in the way they make things happen, and by saying Harry was dead she can accomplish two things: 1) look for her son and b) ensure that her family would be done with Voldemort for good.

Another kinda related thing that struck me as interesting was the exchange between Draco and Harry in the ROR. Malfoy made a point of telling Crabb to stop pushing books down because he didn't want the diadem lost, and it was purely because Harry was looking for it.

fireangel265
July 25th, 2007, 4:28 am
I loved this bit in the story. Didnt understand what she had done the first time but after reading it again it became clearer. I think it shows that at least 2/3 of the Malfoy family arent as evil as they were pumped up to be.

But if you go back and read that final battle, you find out that even Lucius is not fighting in the battle either. Both of Draco's parents are just looking for him.
Narcissa has always been a mother first, but I think this is the first time that we've seen Lucius's fatherly side.

Radley
July 25th, 2007, 4:29 am
Repeatedly, JKR shows us the love of parents for their children. Harry's parents sacrificed their lives for Harry. Dudley's parents try to protect him from the various wizards that enter their house (whether it is needed or not). The Malfoys main concern is whether Draco is alive and how can they get to him. Molly steps in front of Ginny to battle Bellatrix. When Lupin shows up and wants to help the trio - Harry tells him that parents should be with their children. The message/theme is repeated over and over. Of course we see the opposite with Merope and her father -- and her son becomes the most evil wizard of all time.

Fleur du mal
July 25th, 2007, 3:37 pm
Lucius and Narcissa both have no wands when they go into the final battle. (And they could have picked up one from the dead or injured on the ground) They don't WANT to fight anymore.


As for Narcissa's situation - we should keep in mind that not long before this scene, Lucius has basically been told that his son is as good as dead for not following the call. We can safely assume that he communicated this to his wife in some way or other. Narcissa at this point knows that her son will be killed if Voldemort gets the chance. Harry, no matter how, is the only one who can now help her (and Draco) still.


As for Draco in the RoR - I don't believe he is there because he's looking for Harry. He might have told that Crabbe and Goyle, who are after all not the brightest crayons in the box. But sitting in the RoR looking for Harry?! Beg your pardon? Draco hasn't got a clue about Horcrux hunting, and WHY ON EARTH should Harry show up here of all places, with the battle around? He is a Gryffindor and never shrinked away from fighting, Draco knows so much about him for sure. We learn via Lucius/Voldemort's dialogue that Draco didn't show up when called. But no way I believe that he didn't do that because he was looking for Harry - he didn't come because he didn't want to get into that inevitable battle.

So - Draco is hiding there. He doesn't want to join the battle, doesn't want to be killed, and doesn't want to kill others either, we've seen that he's absolutely incapable to deal with murder (and once again, I want to point out how he falls off his chair when Burbage is murdered). So what can he do? Hide, wait till it's all over, look who's won and somehow try and talk his way out of it then.

Bert
July 25th, 2007, 3:41 pm
My opinion of Narcissa is she's never been a fan of the Dark Lord but rather afraid of him. She always has looked out for Draco (Book 6 Beginning, Book 7 End) And doesn't really change cuz she was never TRULY evil to begin with.
Merely compiled by fear/

TheyCallMeHermy
July 25th, 2007, 3:50 pm
I believe that she behaved the way she did in order to save Draco. IMO, if Harry had told her Draco was dead, she would have let some one kill Harry, because in her opinion, all was already lost.
Her family, and especially Draco, have not lived a pleasant life under Voldemort's new regime. I am sure that she does not want to see her son grow up under threats to his life. She wants him to have a good life. I think that she is definitely still prejudiced against all those who aren't pure blood, but having to deal with the sacrifices her family has had to make for Voldemort's new dictatorship are clearly not providing a better life for them than they had in the beginning of the series. Though the wizarding world was not being run the way they would have liked, her family had it's freedom, and I think she's realized that compromise in government and society is better than blind prejudice. In reality, the Draco family has no more freedom than any of the muggleborns that were thrown into Azkaban.

Fleur du mal
July 25th, 2007, 4:19 pm
I think Mitchamus is right. If Harry had said that Draco was dead, Narcissa would have had exactly one thing on her mind - revenge. And Harry being alive would have been the only way to have the tiniest spark of hope for revenge on Voldemort, so she would have lied about him being dead regardless of his answer.

flickerandfade
July 25th, 2007, 4:19 pm
I liked this moment. It showed that a trust had developed between Harry and Narcissa. By having the conversation at all, they put their lives in each other's hands at the moment.



I agree with this, but I think that there would have been an element of understanding there, too. Not that I, for one second, would think that Narcissa and Harry had been having covert meetings to discuss their woes, but (and I will make the assumption on the part of Narcissa) both of them are in this war not necessarily through choice (and with Harry, I mean that he didn't make the conscious decision all of those years ago to reduce Voldemort to nothing), but because the actions of others have led them to those points; they both stood to lose people they loved because of circumstances that they may have actively chosen to be a part of, had they been free of the constraints of family, friends and legacy itself.

Weazleby
July 25th, 2007, 4:29 pm
Dumbledore said that the tyrant always fears the ones he opresses, because sooner of later, one will rise in victory. He also stated that Voldemort showed no mercy, even to his most devoted followers. When you treat your servants badly, they tend to turn on you. Narcissa did just that, in the name of the force that her former master loathed so much. But I don't believe Harry owes her a life debt. She felt she owed him a life debt for rescuing her son. Twice. And telling her he was alive. She owed him.

Mia_Potter
July 25th, 2007, 4:34 pm
I think in that one moment Narcissa proved she was a better person because her love for her son out weighed the risk she was putting her own life in jeopardy. At that moment she proved to be every bit as much of a mother who loved her child as Lily had been all those years before.

Fleur du mal
July 25th, 2007, 4:59 pm
I'm quite glad that after all these years of arguing that I was a hundred percent sure that Narcissa would have laid down her life for her child, like Lily, like Molly, like every real mother around the world (and people LOUDLY protesting against it), we finally got this confirmed as a fact.

I'm sorry if this sounds vindictive or gleeful, it isn't meant like that. I'm just glad.

SKasparRollins
July 25th, 2007, 5:27 pm
Just think, if Voldemort had sent someone other than Narcissa to see if Harry was dead, Harry really would have died.

The thing that has intrigued me, though, is how she thought Harry would know if Draco was alive when it was pretty clear to everyone why Harry had come to Hogwarts: to finish Voldemort.

Fairygdmther
July 25th, 2007, 5:27 pm
It seems apparent that both LV and Harry were stunned by the AK curse. We don't know how much time Narcissa had to do much thinking of any kind, since she was undoubtedly watched while she checked Harry. She must have sensed movement, since he could have been alive, but unconscious.

Perhaps she had already put her hopes in Harry to kill LV, since no one else could, with DD dead. She had seen him meet LV, without a wand in hand, yet he lived through another AK curse. If she pronounced him as 'dead', maybe he would have a bit of time to recuperate enough to get his bearings to take LV on again, on more equal footing. (By this I mean that LV would have been very shaken by the discovery that Harry is still alive.)

Not only did she primarily want news of Draco, she wanted to give what help she could to LV's vanquisher-to-be, at least it seems that was what she wanted.

FGM

Weazleby
July 25th, 2007, 5:31 pm
Well if Voldemort had managed to kill Harry and basically win, Narcissa and the other Malfoys had a huge reason to be fearful. He would have killed them for sure. Her helping of Harry was an example of Slytherin qualities to the extreme. Not only was she doing her touching, motherly duty in protecting her son but she was also saving her family's necks.

Fleur du mal
July 25th, 2007, 5:37 pm
We only ever saw the Slytherin trait 'reach their end by any means' in a negative way, because the aims were mostly bad. Now Narcissa's one single aim was keeping her family alive and as healthy as possible - an aim nobody can disapprove - and she proved being a Slytherin, too.

Sorry, reading this again, it sounds confusing; I hope you know what I mean.

Criccos
July 25th, 2007, 5:41 pm
I think it's very clear that Narcissa saved Harry because it allowed her to try to find her son. Voldemort never realised that Narcissa's love to her son was much stronger than her fear for being killed because of her betrayal, and he did a big mistake there, just as he did when Lily sacrificed herself for Harry 17 years earlier. Just as the text says, Narcissa really didn't care about whether Voldemort won or not, as long as she could be safe with her family. I think it's beautiful.

Nivek_Rotcor
July 25th, 2007, 5:56 pm
The betryal that we were not expecting!

Cissy lied to Lord Voldemort to save her family. The Black family has deserted Voldemort and his followers. Sirius, R.A.B. and now Cissy.

Dumbledore said that Love is the one thing that Voldemort did not understand. Thank God that Cissy understood it.:love:

Nely_Longbottom
July 25th, 2007, 6:46 pm
Narcissa only concern was her son. She did not know what LV would do with them after he really rises again... and his cruelty and jokes in the first chapter proved it. So it would be better if he died once and for all. She knew Harry was the one to kill him and all in all they would be (once more) forgotten for joining the DE.

But I was left with the feeling that she knew what would happen to Harry. Had Snape talked to her about it?

Well i guess JK Rowling kind of showed that they had LOVE and as a family they loved each other so they couldn't possibly be on the side of Voldy. And it kind of shows that the other Death Eaters dont have families cause they can't...

Yes, they have. Take Crabbe and Goyle. Their parents were DE and, as far as we know, they did not care about them. But there are parents and parents. Harry, Ron and Draco had parents wanting to protect them after all... over all. Take Snape, who did not have it. So more than show that mothers are mothers and this is it, JKR was trying to say that it is who we love and how we love that makes difference.

arameme
July 25th, 2007, 7:16 pm
It is interesting that Harry was saved again by a mother protecting her child. Riddle really didn't get it, did he?

Ifink2much
July 25th, 2007, 7:41 pm
Just think, if Voldemort had sent someone other than Narcissa to see if Harry was dead, Harry really would have died.

The thing that has intrigued me, though, is how she thought Harry would know if Draco was alive when it was pretty clear to everyone why Harry had come to Hogwarts: to finish Voldemort.

I still think that harry would have found a way.I think he would have still have defeated Voldemort.

I thought Harry maybe told her what she wanted to hear.draco was in the school but Harry didn't know he was alive although he was the last time he saw him,something could have happened to him in that time.

Mia_Potter
July 25th, 2007, 9:05 pm
It is interesting that Harry was saved again by a mother protecting her child. Riddle really didn't get it, did he?

Nope he never did. I think because his mother died he saw Mother's as weak. When really with her heart and spirit broken his Mother clung to life until he was born. She lived so that he could and then once he was born she just had no more to give. It didn't make her weak it made her human, which is something he never understood so therefor he grew to despise it and being human and have the ability to love is what defeated him even within his own ranks.

MrsJoelMadden
July 27th, 2007, 3:40 am
I have actually wondered breifly if when Harry told her Draco was alive and in the castle that she might have guessed Harry had saved him and that's how he knew. Thoughts?

No one seems to have replied to this question I asked, and I am still curious what people have to say.

lupislune
July 27th, 2007, 4:46 am
I have actually wondered breifly if when Harry told her Draco was alive and in the castle that she might have guessed Harry had saved him and that's how he knew. Thoughts?

No one seems to have replied to this question I asked, and I am still curious what people have to say.

Are you saying that you think she used legiimency to read Harry's mind?

From the first chapter of this book, it seems to me that the Malfoys are not as pleased as they once were to be following Voldemort. I think Narcissa, concerned for her son's life, decides that if Draco is alive, recognizes that there is a chance to vanquish Voldemort and bring her family back together.

msstone
July 27th, 2007, 5:01 am
This thread has made me wonder how Narsissa managed to lie to LV without him knowing? How many times had Snape and others said "The Dark Lord always knows when someone is lying."

Zelkiiro
July 27th, 2007, 5:23 am
When Narcissa received word that Draco was safe and proclaimed Harry was dead, I cheered on the inside. :)

jconnelly16
July 27th, 2007, 5:46 am
She was only concerned for herself and her family, not that there is anything wrong with that, but don't read too much heroism into what she did.

dweaselqueen
July 27th, 2007, 6:25 am
Well yes, but it proves that after all this time, Voldemort made the same mistake. He didn't understand human emotions at all, especially within a family. Narcissa loved her son and Voldie didn't get it. She wanted to protect Draco and her family so that they could stay together, what any true mother would want. That's why she betrayed Voldemort. There's nothing wrong with her reasoning. She had realized a year before that Voldemort had no interest in protecting her family. He sent her son to his death (it didn't happen of course, but he thought it would) for revenge on her husband. She knew that if Voldie won, she could never be satisfied that her family was safe under his rule. I think once she realized there was a possiblity her familiy could come out of this alive, she wanted Voldemort vanguished.

Fleur du mal
July 27th, 2007, 12:01 pm
This thread has made me wonder how Narsissa managed to lie to LV without him knowing? How many times had Snape and others said "The Dark Lord always knows when someone is lying."

Ah, yes, but Voldemort wasn't exactly himself after the little faint he seems to have sustained, was he? Plus - I can only imagine how Narcissa, hearing how Draco is alive, turns around with the big, genuine smile on her face declaring 'He's dead!' as if she was the happiest person on earth for hearing that the one foe Voldemort had difficulties to defeat was finally gone. It's much easier to lie to people when you tell them what they crave to hear.

Mama_Molly
July 27th, 2007, 12:39 pm
I only got half way through this thread before I felt like I had to respond. I take umbridge (tee hee) to the comparison of the Malfoy mother to the Weasly mother - and in extension their families. Cissy may have been wiling to suffer and sacrifice for her precious offspring - but she and Lucius only did so because they are self serving elitists! A world of difference between the Weaslys and the Malfoys! The Weasleys have twice in their lives been willing to sacrifice themselves for the betterment of the world - not just their families. The Malfoys seem to think that they are the centre of the world - and therefore any actions they do are only for themselves. If you find that redeems them, then that's just great - perhaps it does a bit - we are just lucky that Harry wasn't already dead - if he was dead, Cissy would have fought alongside the DEs, I'm sure.

Ginny1984
July 27th, 2007, 12:45 pm
#99 I agree! It was just pure selfishness for her own family that led to the change of heart!

Lillbet
July 27th, 2007, 1:03 pm
The betryal that we were not expecting!

Cissy lied to Lord Voldemort to save her family. The Black family has deserted Voldemort and his followers. Sirius, R.A.B. and now Cissy.

Dumbledore said that Love is the one thing that Voldemort did not understand. Thank God that Cissy understood it.:love:

First of all, I think it was entirely expected. The foreshadowing was there from the moment Narcissa hustled Draco away from Harry in Madam Malkin's (?) and reached its peak when Narcissa went to Snape to get his promise, in the form of the the Unbreakable Vow, that Draco would be safe even if he failed.

Second, we were never told Narcissa specifically was a Death Eater. She is married to one and is the mother of a "junior" member (it is implied that Draco has the Mark). She is present at the meetings in her husband's stead in earlier books. In the end, she is merely riding the coattails of the DE to get into Hogwarts. Narcissa didn't desert Voldemort, she stuck with her husband in order to get her son, and then Voldemort deserted everyone by dying.

Narcissa's family was wealthy before she married Lucius, and she has no known political affiliation- she is merely dedicated to her family (ironic that her name is indicative of one who cares only for oneself), proud of her pureblood heritage, and used to a life of privilege. Narcissa, as far as we know, never changed her stance on the "lower classes." When we see Draco at the end we can't tell if he is still as proud as he was at Hogwarts (although the fact that his son is named "Scorpius" suggests that he's still as pompous as ever).

Third, Narcissa always loved her son. At that moment she is showing just how much by actually speaking to Harry and asking him, a boy she had previously disdained, to give her news of her beloved boy. Whether she is on the good or right side means nothing to her- she just wants to make sure her son is alive. At the end, we see the Malfoys in the Great Hall, together, not joining in the celebrations but staying apart. That, if anything, confirms it- they are true Slytherins, intent on saving their own skins.

McCoulough
July 27th, 2007, 1:13 pm
What I'm thinking is this...she was forced to check Harry by LV when he wanted to confirm he was dead. I think her only compulsion as well as her husbands was that their son wasn't going to die by someone else's hands - especially LV's for any reason what so ever. Knowing that Harry was still alive meant that Draco may still be alive somewhere in the castle. That is the reason why they didn't fight at all in the end, they spent their time looking for Draco. LV may not have killed Lucius for failing in The OOTP, however you know that he was banking on Draco failing on killing DD, which would be punishment enough for any parent to lose their child.

Harry was her only link to getting Draco back alive...if that indeed makes one selfish in the end so be it. However I like to think of it more like a redemption...you get to see the true colors of the people behind the masks - a mother desperate to save her only son.

Fleur du mal
July 27th, 2007, 1:34 pm
The Malfoys seem to think that they are the centre of the world

oh yes, that's where the name Narcissa is rooted, don't you think? I don't want to be the one always preaching, but - things are not that easy, they're neither black, nor white, and that the Malfoys surely were unpleasant, selfish people doesn't mean they were void of every proper feeling, as DH shows very clearly in my opinion.

if he was dead, Cissy would have fought alongside the DEs, I'm sure.
she might have had, (just not very successfully without a wand, eh?), and with the one person dead who was supposed to be capable of undoing LV, and a son who's as good as sentenced to death, too - of course she might have tried to look as good in LV's eyes as possible. Or not, because -

heck, the Malfoys lacked all kind of commitment to LV throughout the entire course of DH, and at that point, it DID look very much as if the baddies had already won. Still, none of the Malfoys seemed to have it in themselves to ingratiate themselves with the master - and both Lucius and Draco have ample of talent for ingratiating in general. They didn't even try because they were so terrified. Now you'll say, they got what they asked for, and I'd agree - but the point is, sometimes people are being idiotic and then they get what they wanted and see it's not what they expected. Lucius is broken by the end, Draco is surely damaged beyond measure - they got their punishment, didn't they? And they also got their reprieve because the one thing they never betrayed was their affection for each other, as a family. That's a start.

jkmonkey28
July 27th, 2007, 1:50 pm
I too think that her sole motivation was the safety of her son. I think that she was not a death eater (even though she does believe in the pure blood stuff), and had seen Voldemort all but devestate her son with fear, and mentally unbalance her husband (even further than he was to begin with), so that when she had the answer she sought she rewarded the provider of that answer by lying to Voldemort in the hopes that Harry could get her to her family without any further death or injury.

Exactly, I think she just wanted to get out of the hole they had fallen into. Lucius got into the Death Eaters before he had a family to worry about. I think that once he had a family to worry about he was in to deep to get back out so he did what he had to to try to keep his family alive. I for one was a bit more reckless with my decision making before I became a wife and mother. I don't think that Narcissa and Draco were part of things by choice since you see them waver from the things LV requests (ie. Cissy going to Snape for help and Draco on the tower with Dumbledore). Like most people they wanted to live, survive the war. And like most families they wanted their loved ones to be with them. Narcissa did what most any mother would do, excluding of course Bella who already admitted she would give her child to the dark lord but at the same time she has never been a mother to know the real power of love and protection a mother would feel.
Just my thoughts anyway.

Alter_joe
July 27th, 2007, 1:53 pm
The Malfoy-Theme is pretty much the Snape-Theme again.

Snape came to his senses, when some personal interest of his were touched by the LV's mercyless will to rule the world (and become immortal). He realized, that he had feelings towards other people, that he loved and cared. That must have been a wonderful discovery.

Narcissa does not care about any bad thing, LV does, until her own family, her beloved son is concerned. She, like Snape, realizes, what it must mean to all the other families, who lost beloved ones and starts to come over to the other side. It is indeed love, that conquers LV. Suddenly, she loves and cares so much, she cannot stand any more slaughter of the innocent. Lucius takes much longer for that realization. Draco is even faster with it, zhan his mother, which one can see in that chapter in Malfoys mansion. Draco does not even fight, he is frightened, hates, what he has to do, tries to save and help Harry.

As much as Snape, Lord Voldemort brought the Malfoys to Harrys side by, unwillingly, showing them, how much they care about and love each other. (This is quite contrary to bellatrix, who would not care to sacrifice any child or brother or husband... for LV)

Narcissa does not protect Harry, because she want's to go to the castle or for telling her, that her son is alive, but for her intension to work against LV as much as posible without getting killed herself.

MrsJoelMadden
July 27th, 2007, 3:17 pm
Are you saying that you think she used legiimency to read Harry's mind?

No, I was thinking more along the lines that maybe after all the years of hearing about Harry from Draco and the rest of the wizarding world that maybe she realized once Harry said Draco was safe that Harry may have done something to save Draco. Perhaps something inside her told her that he would not have killed her son or let her son be killed? My question makes more sense inside my head than trying to explain it. :lol:

dantares
July 27th, 2007, 5:09 pm
yah, I do think that once Harry told her that Draco was safe, she knew that Harry must have let him off or watched him being safe somewhere. She knew that her son and Harry are mortal enemies and given the chance, one will want to hurt the other as much as possible. Since Harry obviously was not hurt by her son and assured her that her son wasn't hurt by him either, she will save Harry.

NoNEWTS
July 27th, 2007, 7:52 pm
I think you have to ask yourself, why didn't the Malfoys search for Voldemort? They were happy with their life and power.

Once Voldemort came back, they had to go along with it. After the debacle in the Ministry they lost favor. They could have taken the long term view that eventually Lucius and Cissy would be able to perform a valuable service and regain status: there was a whole world to conquer after all.

I could see that Voldemort wanted to punish them for Lucius's two big mistakes: the diary and the prophecy. And we saw in Book 6, Chapter 2 that his vengeance undermined their loyalty. But I still thought they'd have a chance to remain on top since Draco had found a way to let the Death Eaters into the school (though he didn't kill Dumbledore). Clearly from Chapter 1, they were as Crabbe said, finished.

Also, I didn't realize that he'd humiliate them further by making them wandless (perhaps forbidding Lucius and later Bella from even having wands). Therefore they essentially lost interest in the Dark Order. At the end I think prophecies didn't matter, only their son's survival.

Lillbet
July 27th, 2007, 8:14 pm
Or not, because -

heck, the Malfoys lacked all kind of commitment to LV throughout the entire course of DH, and at that point, it DID look very much as if the baddies had already won. Still, none of the Malfoys seemed to have it in themselves to ingratiate themselves with the master - and both Lucius and Draco have ample of talent for ingratiating in general. They didn't even try because they were so terrified. Now you'll say, they got what they asked for, and I'd agree - but the point is, sometimes people are being idiotic and then they get what they wanted and see it's not what they expected. Lucius is broken by the end, Draco is surely damaged beyond measure - they got their punishment, didn't they? And they also got their reprieve because the one thing they never betrayed was their affection for each other, as a family. That's a start.

That's what I thought. Lucius never struck me as being purely evil, just concerned with doing the proper thing for his station- ie siding with Voldemort and becoming a Death Eater because that's what a pureblood would do to help preserve the sanctity of... purebloodedness. Giving Ginny the diary and going after the prophecy weren't, as far as I could tell, his idea. He didn't shy away from doing his Death Eaterly duty, but I also didn't get the sense that his heart was in it, if you will.

More important to him were things that stemmed from a sense of entitlement borne of wizarding aristocracy- like sitting in the Minister's box at the World Cup (which came across nicely in the movie) and so on.

Nitrus
July 27th, 2007, 8:29 pm
My first post. :) I loved the book.

But anways regarding Narcissa and the Malfoys, I'm not certain when I write this, but I believe that they were the only Death Eaters at the time who had children. At least, that is what we were led to believe. Lucius was a Death Eater and everyone at Hogwarts was scared of that.

I believe that the Malfoys never really fully gave themselves to Voldemort because of the fact that they were a lot more like Harry (and the good side) than they led on, they had hearts. The rest of the Death Eaters never really showed any type of love or remorse and therefore were able to carry out Voldemorts tasks and fully dedicate themselves to him.

If we think of other Death Eaters that didn't stick with Voldemort until the end, we think of Regalus Black (who showed that he had a heart and cared for his house Elf) and henceforth left Voldemort. Snape is another classic example, Snape was in love with Lily and this is what forced him to join the good side because his love for Lily made him want to leave Voldemort and protect Lily and Harry both from him.

Love, again, is what saved Harry in the end. Narcissa loved her child and couldn't let him die if she could do something about it. She let Harry live to save her son. The Malfoys' ability to love and feel is what distinguished them from the rest of the Death Eaters and I believe is what Voldemort saw and tried to exploit. Snape's love and it's role in saving Harry's life is quite evident.

I think the epilogue (as tacky and unnecessary as it may have been) further certifies the fact that the Malfoys do love, do feel remorse and do think from their hearts as if they were true Death Eaters, Draco would have still held a grudge against Harry instead of nodding to him in acknowledgement and possibly in gratitude.

Lillbet
July 27th, 2007, 8:35 pm
My first post. :) I loved the book.

But anways regarding Narcissa and the Malfoys, I'm not certain when I write this, but I believe that they were the only Death Eaters at the time who had children. At least, that is what we were led to believe. Lucius was a Death Eater and everyone at Hogwarts was scared of that.

Welcome! :wave:

As it happens, Crabbe and Goyle's fathers are also Death Eaters (which might explain why they are buddies with Malfoy). Theodore Nott, another Hogwarts student, is also the son of a known Death Eater (Nott Sr. is a widower). Draco is the only one who has a doting mum that we know of.

Lucius' power seems to come not only from his position as a Death Eater, but also from the fact that he is well-connected- he was a former governor of Hogwarts School and a donor to both St. Mungo's and the Ministry. He convinced the Ministry that he was Imperiused and that's why he followed Voldemort the first time.

Love, again, is what saved Harry in the end. Narcissa loved her child and couldn't let him die if she could do something about it. She let Harry live to save her son.

More likely, Narcissa realized that if Voldemort's curse hadn't killed Harry that her best bet was to get her family together and get out of there. It's possible she could have announced that Harry still lived, but knowing what we do about the blood bond it might not have made a difference. The fact that she did not rat him out suggests that the power struggle interested her less than her son's life.

There is no guarantee that Draco would have lived anyway, she just wanted to know if he was okay.

Nitrus
July 27th, 2007, 8:39 pm
Welcome! :wave:

As it happens, Crabbe and Goyle's fathers are also Death Eaters (which might explain why they are buddies with Malfoy).


Thanks.

And I knew it wouldn't be that easy. :) But I think my points still have some truth to them.

padfootandme
July 27th, 2007, 8:45 pm
As soon as she feels Harry's heart beating, she know that he IS the chosen one... that the prophecy IS true, and that Voldemort cannot kill Harry.

That must have been a massive realisation for her.... to know that LV will be killed by harry.. and there is nothing that LV can do about it... LV cannot kill harry.... She has seen (I'm inferring here) that LV must also have collapsed at the time, as the DE are concerned about him... so something bad must have happened to LV at the time of the curse...

It must have been a massive shock for her... and a great revelation as she now KNOWS that there is hope for not only saving her son, but for the hope of her family... to escape the persecution of their "Fall from Grace"

I didn't really think about how Narcissa might have realized that Voldemort was going to die. I was under the impression that the other Death Eaters didn't know what the prophecy said. But if she did, then she was really keen to get out of there and keep Voldemort happy at the same time. By lying and saying Harry was dead, Voldemort was happy, and she was permitted to join the others to go find her son, a double win for her.

Lillbet
July 27th, 2007, 8:51 pm
I didn't really think about how Narcissa might have realized that Voldemort was going to die. I was under the impression that the other Death Eaters didn't know what the prophecy said. But if she did, then she was really keen to get out of there and keep Voldemort happy at the same time. By lying and saying Harry was dead, Voldemort was happy, and she was permitted to join the others to go find her son, a double win for her.

Possibly. It stands to reason that Lucius would tell her.

NoNEWTS
July 27th, 2007, 11:35 pm
I was just struck with the thought about Narcissa malfoy...

As soon as she feels Harry's heart beating, she know that he IS the chosen one... that the prophecy IS true, and that Voldemort cannot kill Harry.


I disagree. I think the only thing she cares about at this point is the survival of Draco (and perhaps her husband). Note that her nails don't dig into him until he answers YES.

I mean this is the main theme of Harry Potter - his mother died to save him. Riddle's mum wouldn't save herself to care for him. Lupin wants to run off on his wife and kid. Cissy risks betraying Voldemort to beg Snape to save Draco.

jaan
July 28th, 2007, 2:14 am
I was just struck with the thought about Narcissa malfoy...

As soon as she feels Harry's heart beating, she know that he IS the chosen one... that the prophecy IS true, and that Voldemort cannot kill Harry.



Is there anything to suggest that she knew of the prophecy in the first place? As others have said, her thoughts struck me as being only for her son's safety at this point.


(sorry for repeating what some of you already said, I didn't read the whole thread. But it's a point worth making again)

gabrielle_004
July 28th, 2007, 2:38 am
I think towards the end, she just wanted Voldemort gone, and she knew Harry was her best bet.

Think about it. Whatever attachments that the Malfoys had towards Voldemort died from the point that Lucius was in jail and Voldemort gave Draco that task that he was hoping he would be killed while performing, all to punish Lucius for what happened in the Department of Mysteries...which wasn't even his fault!

Then, to add insult to injury, he takes over their manor and makes it clear to all that he has absolutely no respect for them, and makes jokes at their expense. He even smacks Narcissa and makes her go over and check the body. It would serve no purpose to lie to gain entrance into Hogwarts, since if she simply said he was alive Voldemort probably would have smoted him on the spot and would have had Hagrid carry the dead body inside anyway. So I think she figured that a live Harry inside the castle with friends that would help him would tilt the odds more in his favor.

The part where Hogwarts is actively under siege and Lucius and Narcissa are running around screaming for their son made me cry.

I am in complete agreement with this. I think that:

a) Narcissa would not have been able to put two-and-two together about Harry and the Prophecy; she probably didn't even know what the prophecy said nor did she care at that moment, her son was far more important.

b) She had had enough of Voldemort already and if she had ever been in denile, believeing like her sister that the death eaters were considered equal to Voldemort or even treated differently then the Mudbloods and Muggles, I think she was finally starting to see the light.

Fleur du mal
July 28th, 2007, 5:11 am
Think about it. Whatever attachments that the Malfoys had towards Voldemort died from the point that Lucius was in jail and Voldemort gave Draco that task that he was hoping he would be killed while performing, all to punish Lucius for what happened in the Department of Mysteries...which wasn't even his fault!

I'd go so far and say that Lucius' attachment was finished by the time of Voldemort's first downfall. I can easily imagine how much 'fun' he's had in the seventies, a young man put in the position to do whatever he wanted. But then Draco was born, the Aurors got the license to kill, and it must already have dawned on him how his master might be immortal, but he isn't, and he's just become a father. Not that he turned away from V in any way, just that that one's disappearing was convenient.

And fifteen years later, Lucius DOES 'show a respectable face to the world'. He hasn't got anything to win at that point already, only to lose. The Death Eaters at the World Cup fled when spotting the Dark Mark because they were scared of Voldemort being back, and predictably unhappy with them. What could Lucius have gained by serving Voldemort that would have been worth it? Nothing. I cannot believe that the cunning, calculating character as which he is depicted through the books should have failed to recognise how bad his chances were once the master came back.

Mama_Molly
July 28th, 2007, 6:07 pm
Note that her nails don't dig into him until he answers YES. Oh yes - what a dear soul Cissy is - diggin her nails - consciously or unconsciously (Freud anyone?) into a heroic wounded soul in a very sensitive position. She just witnessed this 17 year old facing death so bravely when all she wants to do is protect her family from pain. The implication is that she would have betrayed Harry if he had said yes Malfoy is dead - she would have totally gone over to the DE side then out of rage and pain. Ok ok - she loved her family - Hitler loved his dog, and cake and "Silent Night" and many people too! There is good in every soul - but not enough in the Malfoys for me to really admire them. They got very lucky and Harry and Ron ("And that's the third time we saved your life you git!") were very gracious. And do you think the Malfoys were really thankful? Somehow I didn't get the impression that the Draco Malfoy family were reall warm and fuzzy at the train station. I'll bet they didn't think that they should be grateful to anyone - they "deserved" to have special status whenever they lived - $_it floats!

Fleur du mal
July 28th, 2007, 7:06 pm
I understood that movement as a sign of emotion and relief upon hearing that Draco's still alive. As a reflex, she tried to clench her fists, in a sort of "Yes!" or "Now or never..." movement. I don't think she meant to scratch Harry, neither did I get the impression that Harry found the twitch considerably painful or inappropriate.

Mama_Molly
July 28th, 2007, 7:57 pm
I, too, actually - but to me it was just another example of how self absorbed the Malfoys are - and considering shortly thereafter that Harry was tossed about with the cruciatus curse and experienced little pain - he felt protected even then - her nails wouldn't have been much in comparison - but under normal curcumstance it would have hurt.

I don't mean to come across as unrelentingly unforgiving - it is just that I see no evidence that the family really changed from their original elistist opportunistic ways. Children of such people are not seen so much as individuals and worthwhile members of an ever changing world and community - they are extensions of themselves - and Narcissa would have little identity outside of Malfoy. He was another possession and of great value because he was of their pure genetic makeup (a rarity).

Fleur du mal
July 28th, 2007, 8:37 pm
I agree with you absolutely. I don't think the Malfoys did undergo some material change of Weltanschauung. I'd bet that little Scorpius is told how very special he is, and that he'll always be more worth than kids without a long family tree. What I think rather safe however is that all of them changed their minds about the end to such a thought. I don't think either of them would ever again partake in any enterprise comparable to Voldemort's. Or even sympathise - look how horrified Draco was with the actual effects of going down that road. He couldn't watch the killing. Understanding what it really meant he had to see that this wasn't what he had expected, or what he was in any way capable of.

So I'd say, yes, the bias will stay, but it'll no longer be the same that Draco grew up with.

IgoRetla
July 28th, 2007, 8:46 pm
I think that Narcissa's reaction was far more pragmatic. She wanted to see her son, knew that she and her husband would die under Voldemort, and Harry was the only way to put an end to it all. Nothing else mattered but Draco--as she had said in HBP--"I will do anything."

MrsJoelMadden
July 29th, 2007, 6:19 am
Is it possible, do you all think, that when she dug her nails into him she was performing some sort of wandless magic to make it harder to tell whether Harry was alive or dead? Not sure if that makes sense, but I'm not sure of a better way to explain at the moment. But I've been thinking about this for a while this afternoon.

Mama_Molly
July 29th, 2007, 9:52 am
Is it possible, do you all think, that when she dug her nails into him she was performing some sort of wandless magic to make it harder to tell whether Harry was alive or dead? Not sure if that makes sense, but I'm not sure of a better way to explain at the moment. But I've been thinking about this for a while this afternoon.Honestly, no, I don't think so - I think she just had a reaction to the good news that her son was still alive and had no further thoughts about Harry at that point. But if you want to think she had warm and fuzzy protective motherly feelings for Harry at that point, please do - I love warm and fuzzy motherly feelings!

And "Flower you once" - So I'd say, yes, the bias will stay, but it'll no longer be the same that Draco grew up with.I don't think anything is ever going to be the same as when Harry & Co. grew up and that is what makes everything so wonderful in Fictionland. As a result of Harry's (amongst others) work as a baby and child, I imagine his adult life as Auror is much easier than when his parents were Aurors! I guess, though that there is still dark magic going on and one should not become Pollyannaisch about changes.

I would hope that the Malfoys would have a bad taste left in their mouths regarding dark magic - but I wonder about the knowledge that was learned and the temptations that follow - even Dumbeldore wasn't immune to them.

I just didn't like Cissy being admired for her actions. IMO - they weren't that noble - they were self serving - as usual.

Fleur du mal
July 29th, 2007, 10:21 am
And "Flower you once" - :lol:



I just didn't like Cissy being admired for her actions. IMO - they weren't that noble - they were self serving - as usual.
Your assessment might be absolutely correct, but the point with Narcissa is that there was really just a tiny minority before DH that believed this woman could have any proper feeling at all. There were other characters that great things were expected from, but Narcissa wasn't one of them - at least on these forums - so the surprise and approval might be bigger than her deed would actually call for.

Mama_Molly
July 29th, 2007, 11:02 am
:lol:




Your assessment might be absolutely correct, but the point with Narcissa is that there was really just a tiny minority before DH that believed this woman could have any proper feeling at all. There were other characters that great things were expected from, but Narcissa wasn't one of them - at least on these forums - so the surprise and approval might be bigger than her deed would actually call for.Herzlichen Dank for the explanation! :eyebrows:

arshia
July 29th, 2007, 11:14 am
I think at that time,Cissy must have realised that Harry is going to be victorious by defeating LV!
Also,she cared about her son who was being misused by LV, and wanted to save him from the chaos that LV had created in hogwarts!...afterall she is, like molly who cares about her children and didnt want them to die, a mother!

Fleur du mal
July 29th, 2007, 11:20 am
Herzlichen Dank for the explanation! :eyebrows:

Aber gern geschehen ;)


I must say I would have liked to see a little more of Andromeda in this instance. We know all we need to know of Bella, and I would have liked to get a clearer picture of the Black sisters and their similarities and differences. We get to hear of both Andromeda and Narcissa how they sometimes bear a certain visual resemblance with Bella, I don't think that was put in there for no reason. Of Andromeda we can safely assume that she's 'on the right side' at every given moment of the story, but where does that leave us with Narcissa?

GlassRoses314
July 29th, 2007, 11:27 am
I also don't think Cissy was a Death Eater. I think she'd have turned up in that scene in Goblet of Fire had she been, and all in all, she seems like the sort of character who keeps her hands clean and leaves the action to other people (charging Snape with looking after Draco, and even giving Draco her own wand here, perhaps).

It's nice to see her, as someone seemingly so reluctant to act, finally commit one of the most crucial acts of the battle, regardless of her intentions.

I'm not sure that any real desire to see Voldemort destroyed was a part of her decision to betray him. I think all she could think about by then was Draco.

It's interesting how incredibly loyal to kinship the Malfoys turned out, considering how cold they had appeared at first.



I agree. I think that what she did was very admirable. She lied to Voldemort at great risk to herself (not to mention her husband) so that she could find her son. I never would have expected the Malfoy's (prior to HBP) to ever show an ounce of integrity. That said, they are still Slytherins and what she did was not in any way with good intentions toward Harry. It was soley to protect her son, which again I say, is admirable due to the risk involved.

To the person who said that they cried when the Malfoys were running through Hogwarts screaming for Draco. Had I payed a bit more attention, I probably would have cried as well. Now that you mention it, that was a very sad moment indeed.

Snapelicious
July 29th, 2007, 11:31 am
Mother's love is a big thing in HP - Lily's for Harry, Mrs Weasley when Ginny is nearly killed, the lack of love for Riddle... I see Cissy as acting out another example of that. She loves her son and wants to see him, safe and sound, as oon as she can, so she's doing what ever it takes to ensure that happens. If it means helping Harry, she'll do it, if it means seeing Snape on the sly, she'll do it.

Her values haven't been great, and she and her family have made a lot of people suffer, but they have suffered in turn all through HBP and DH, and their love as a family unit has become stronger than their loyalty to LV. That surely is a good thing, considering all DD's exposition about the value of love.

Fleur du mal
July 29th, 2007, 11:32 am
I agree with you in some ways, GlassRoses, but then again... Do you think it is really a sign of 'integrity' when Narcissa declares Harry's death? Maybe my idea of the term is coloured differently, or maybe I misunderstand the term completely, but Narcissa isn't the Black sister that I think of as the 'integre' one.

JJFinch
July 29th, 2007, 11:32 am
I developed a real soft spot for the Malfoys in the last few chapters of the book. Narcissa and Lucius were so concerned for their son that they abandonned(sp?) the battle completely. I also liked the bit in the epilogue (actually one of the only bits of the epilogue I liked at all) where Draco acknowledges Harry, Ginny, Ron and Hermione.

But back to Narcissa, I think she's been having doubts since the beginning of HBP because of the task Voldy set Draco, and the fact that it was on his account that her husband was in Azkaban. She began to realise that they'd picked a horrible side - maybe even realised it was the wrong side, judging by her reactions and general stiffness in the first chapter of DH. When she felt Harry's beating heart then, I don't think she was thinking about what this meant for Voldy, because she'd long since grown to hate him, but she saw it as a way out, and a way to find Draco, as was stated in *** text.

dobby_rocks
July 29th, 2007, 12:52 pm
I felt kind of bad for them they were essential prisoners in their own home. I don’t think they were on one side or the other. They were just concerned that their family made it.

CrimsonFire
July 29th, 2007, 5:04 pm
I think that when Narcissa felt Harry's heart beating, the only thing she cared about was Draco. The mothers love for her son far far out weighed the fear of LV. All she cared about was her son and husband and knowing Harry as they did (saving and not killing) she figured if anyone would know about Draco, it would be him. Lying to LV meant that they would be able to head to the castle and find Draco. Again, LV under estimates the power of Love. He thought that others fear of him would keep them loyal and true but again love, a mothers love, was far stronger then her fear of him.

SFHPW
July 29th, 2007, 5:17 pm
It would have been nice to see the Malfoy's switch sides int he final battle seen... but after all they are Syltherins are are only interested in saving their own necks :P

Now, now Slughorn did fight Voldemort in the end.

I hope Draco was good to his mommy. I liked the angle that even Death Eaters love. The Malfoy's love their kid (for some crazy reason), and Kreacher was loved or atleast respected by Regulus.

fryonator
July 29th, 2007, 5:25 pm
I think inside NArcissa was an inherently good person but she placed her loyalty to her husband against all else. You never see her to anything remotely evil in the books and I have had this feeling all along that she just fell in love with the wrong man and was determined to make the best of it.

Fleur du mal
July 29th, 2007, 5:30 pm
I wouldn't say that Narcissa was good or bad. She was indifferent, as her name already hints. Where does it say that indifference can be more harmful than hate?

fryonator
July 29th, 2007, 7:04 pm
I'm saying that she was good but because she was married to Lucious she never got to show it. We do see her care deeply for Draco which is a trait that dark wizards do not have. No evil wizards love people. This is another reason why I think Narcissa is a good person

Severus_Snape77
July 29th, 2007, 7:09 pm
Narcissa was only concerned for Draco at the time. I don't think she cared much for Voldemort. She just wanted to get to the castle quickly to see Draco. I also, through the whole "Battle of Hogwarts" was hoping that the Malfoys would turn against Voldemort, but they didn't.

Uriel
July 29th, 2007, 7:17 pm
Yes, but Narcissa and even Lucious were more worried about their son in the end, so I still gave them kudos for that.

Amortentia11
July 29th, 2007, 7:24 pm
i'm positive that if harry answered no to narcissa's question of whether her son was alive, she would have told LV that harry was alive. her answer was dependent upon harry's. that's why it was so good that harry saved malfoy's life twice. it really paid off in the end. i don't think narcissa had the prophecy or the chosen one in her mind at all... she was just focused on getting her son out of hogwarts alive.

Mama_Molly
July 29th, 2007, 9:02 pm
I wouldn't say that Narcissa was good or bad. She was indifferent, as her name already hints. Where does it say that indifference can be more harmful than hate?
I have heard it say that the opposite of Love is not hate but indifference.

luxlight
July 29th, 2007, 10:02 pm
Narcissa does love her family, and so does Lucius. Of course they acted like every other parents would, they wanted to find and protect their child.

My theory: now here's where their brilliant Slytherin mind comes to their rescue (and not only theirs). Not only did they save their beloved sons life, but they also helped bring Voldemorts' death by saving Harry's. By lying to Voldemort and thus saving Harry's life, they were practically saying to Harry: "Finish it!". They both saw a way out, to rid themselves of Voldemort, for good, and ultimately save themselves because they knew their days were numbered, especially with Lucius mistake in the ministry of magic, plus not really doing any fighting and killing, instead running around madly searching for Draco. I don't think Voldemort would have been too happy with Lucius and Narcissas signs of disloyalty - nor would the DEs be. I'm sure that if Lucius really would want to kill Harry he could have ensured Harry's death without having to betray Narcissas' lie to Voldemort. But it was not his mission at that point (and perhaps it never had been either. Lucius had shown signs of disloyalty before). With Voldemort gone, they would not have to fear death. If you stumbled upon the answer to a life without fear of torture and death for your loved ones, without having to follow some madman's biddings (no matter how much you despised or agreed to the matter at hand), would you take it?

They took it, and we can't really fault them for self-preservation. After all, if they hadn't the outcome would have, most likely, turned out differently than it did.

Does it make them bad, I don't know, it makes them human I guess.

elmo4500
July 31st, 2007, 8:00 am
Whew! Poor Narcissa. Do people feel the need to beat her down cuz she did some thing grey and out of character? Or because people do not want to have to consider the idea that HP may be in debt to such an elusive and possibly unsavoury character?
I think it’s really harsh to say that just because her motivations where not as pure as the saintly HP's they are not worthy of note. I'm not going to quote anyone because I don't like singling people out and there are plenty of people with each view and that's a good thing.

To say Narcissa's actions in saving HP were self-serving and uncourageous is like saying a woman who runs into a burning building to save her child is not brave, because saving that child was a self serving action, as it suited the woman to have her child live. You are trying to convince us that a self-less action is really a selfish one and trying to distorted the truth and bend it so it suits you, its propaganda. (This is not really explains things properly as I mean them)

Another thing is the impact people are letting her motivations and beliefs have on the whether she is brave or not. Is the woman who ran into the building to save her child less brave because she is a Nazi? Would you consider a man brave, if he risks his life to return one of your comrades, if he did so to save his brothers life?
Just because Narcissa doesn't believe exactly what we believe does not mean we can discredit her actions.

However I don't think Narcissa cared overly much what happened to Harry, he was a means to an ends. I would like to think she charmed him to prevent him from feeling pain, but it seems unlikely if it did happen it would have been on a purely instinctive level not a conscious one.

I hope I have miss-understood the quote that seemed to imply that Narcissa did not, or only loved Draco and wanted to see him survive, because he was an extension of herself and a means to define herself. That he did matter to her beyond his importance as her pure blooded heir. If that's what she felt she wouldn't have risked her life for him, she wouldn't have had a complete breakdown at the beginning of HBP, and she probably would have had more kids. Narcissa loves Draco he is her Diddy, her Dracely-kins.

As for being drawn to the power of Dark Arts Lucius maybe but I think Narcissa is just a follower and socialite, power comes for her through connections not magic and Draco when he was drawn to them only saw the glory of them and not the reality of them, when faced with the reality he wasn't too keen on it.

In the end I don't think Narcissa changed her core beliefs, she is still in her mind superior and I don't care if she acted just to save her family, she was brave and selfless. That's me being pessimistic I would like to believe that all the Malfoy's had a change of heart, Yay! To the people who do, but I don't think it should be relevant in this particular case.

I was going for objective and neutral and obviously didn't succeed but I hope that this encourages people to give Narcissa a little more credit for her actions and bravery or at least be thought provoking. :wave:

Wright1771
July 31st, 2007, 9:07 am
I'm not saying that the Malfoy's would ever invite Harry around for tea, but they now had so much respect for him for saving Draco.....well, you saw it at Kings Cross Station.

Ginny1984
July 31st, 2007, 10:19 am
It musy have been a shock for Narcissa! Imagine watching someone killed, check them over to find that they are still alive?? She did very well to conceal it!

Mama_Molly
July 31st, 2007, 10:35 am
Since mine are the most adamant posts in the, "Let's not give Narcissa too much credit" vein . . . I wil respond.
Narcissy did a brave thing by lying to Voldemord - and before that trying to protect Draco by forcing Snape to do something he had already intended to do.

I just couldn't muster up the energy to cry and be so sentimental over the fact that they remained an intakt family. I (IRL) love my son, and I love other people's sons and daughters and in order to protect them all I am willing to suffer for justice. I believe that too few people in this world are willing to suffer - and (without going into US culture and politics here) I feel that there are way too many people who would use things like patriotism and motherhood etc. as excuses to let injustice reign, and ignore root causes of evil because someone did one thing nice at one time. I couldn't let this motherly heroic act go by as being so glorified when taken in relationship to the overall Malfoy family tendencies.

And it isn't just Nazis that the Malfoys epitomize - there are lots of similar mentalities through history and in the present age. We just don't notice them anymore because we are lookinig for the 100% evil face of Hitler - which never was 100% evil.

Fleur du mal
July 31st, 2007, 11:57 am
I would like to think she charmed him to prevent him from feeling pain, but it seems unlikely if it did happen it would have been on a purely instinctive level not a conscious one.

This is an interesting idea... I did wonder why Harry didn't feel the Cruciatus at all. That his near-death experience would fill him with enough happiness to dispel the Dementors - granted. But be subjected to Cruciio and feel nothing? I hadn't got the tiniest inkling how that could have come about. And yes, I do like the idea, too, that by some subconcious move, Narcissa transferred some of the motherly worry and care and protection she felt in that moment for Draco, that she transferred a bit of this when raking Harry with her nails, unwittingly protecting him from the torture curses.

Narcissa loves Draco he is her Diddy, her Dracely-kins.
:lol:


I'm not sure if I got you right. If you say that Narcissa's love for Draco is nothing if not genuine, I whole-heartedly agree with you. Really, I see nothing in the books indicating that Narcissa wasn't absolutely loving her kid to bits. And vice versa - throughout the books, Draco's talked a lot of his great father, but the few instances Narcissa is mentioned, Draco gets absolutely furious when someone seems to deride her (ferret scene, Madam Malkins).

I don't find it that hard to accept that they really love each other, all three of them. Only because someone is unpleasant - or downright obnixious - it doesn't follow that they cannot love their families, friends etc. We're not seriously arguing about the question that many KKK members were devout family fathers at home? That many Nazis did love their children, and wives?

Mama_Molly
July 31st, 2007, 1:33 pm
I hope I didn't come across that way saying that National Socialists and KKK and other ethnic cleansers didn't/don't love their children. I think my point has been run into the ground . . . I'm talking about the bigger picture of taking responsibility for the greater family of "Man", as well.

I honestly think all parents love their children in some way - some are better at dealing with the responsibility than others, and some are miserable at it. I think that even Merope loved her child, but was incapable of dealing with life on her own.

Chris
July 31st, 2007, 1:43 pm
It musy have been a shock for Narcissa! Imagine watching someone killed, check them over to find that they are still alive?? She did very well to conceal it!

Good point...maybe she expected it? Maybe she understood the mother's love sacrifice (and Harry's) better than any other DE (or DE supporter - JK did note that she was never a true DE; she only supported them) Otherwise, that is a feat to control the shock on her face. Though Harry does note that she's got a permanent look on her face at one point (though this was in the middle of an insult-game...so that might not count...)

Philg
July 31st, 2007, 1:48 pm
I think like every mother, Narcissa just wanted to save her child.

And I agree it must have taken alot of self restrain not to show a sign of surprise when a person who got killed before your eyes is still alive.

SuzieLovesSnape
July 31st, 2007, 2:03 pm
i'm positive that if harry answered no to narcissa's question of whether her son was alive, she would have told LV that harry was alive.


I agree 99 per cent. Her motivation was only getting to her son, and if Harry had said he was dead, I think she would have broken down [letting Voldemort know something was wrong instantly]. She would not cared what happened to anyone if Draco was dead- herself included.

McCoulough
July 31st, 2007, 3:18 pm
My god so many people to quote from since I last posted....


Look at it from this point of view. Why did the Death Eaters follow LV in the first place? They considered him their leader. They knew that they would be punished severely for failure...hence such the aggressiveness of their nature. However Malfoy and his clan were close to LV, and he proved to be a big disappointment he went to the next one down as a mean of punishing Lucius for his failure. Narcissa - evil as she may have been was still a mother - and protective as any mother would have been regardless of the situation. My theory of her clutching her nails into Harry's chest would be one of mingled relief and scared animosity...the one person who has dogged your family and your Lord for years is lying alive in front of you, and your only concern is your son in the castle. Her life, husband's and son's depend on how believable she could make that lie. Ultimately as we know they didn't even partake in that battle in the end, just went to search for their son - and sat in mingled shock and gladness that they were all alive after LV was dead.

Fleur du mal
July 31st, 2007, 4:04 pm
Can we agree that the all of the Malfoys would have loved to see LV's undoing, and if only to get these people out of their house again? To get something like a life back, without constant threads of murder?

Mama_Molly
July 31st, 2007, 5:13 pm
Can we agree that the all of the Malfoys would have loved to see LV's undoing, and if only to get these people out of their house again? To get something like a life back, without constant threads of murder? tee heee - threads of murder - threats of murder - could it be you've been online too long? :err: :love: :lol:

Fleur du mal
July 31st, 2007, 5:28 pm
tee heee - threads of murder - threats of murder - could it be you've been online too long? :err: :love: :lol:

I'm sorry - and yes, I was FAR too long online :) - I don't get the joke. If it is a joke... What I meant was that no matter how pureblood elitistic they were, they couldn't sympathize with Voldemort any longer, and if only because he kept on constantly reminding them that he'd have their lives in the palm of his hand.

LoveWeasleys
July 31st, 2007, 5:59 pm
What I meant was that no matter how pureblood elitistic they were, they couldn't sympathize with Voldemort any longer, and if only because he kept on constantly reminding them that he'd have their lives in the palm of his hand.
Definately agreed. I think we started to see their downfall from Voldy as soon as we were introduced to Narcissa in Spinner's End and it just snowballed to the Lightning Struck Tower to The Dark Lord's Ascending and on throughout the book.

I am actually glad that they all survived and that Narcissa played a key role in ensuring that Harry would be the one to take down Voldemort, if it was only for the reason of saving her son. I think at that point she was wanting to get back to a normal life so much and cut their losses and move on. It surprised me, but I think her one "revelation" redeemed her family. If she would have acted otherwise, the book would not have ended the way it did.

danita_bd
July 31st, 2007, 6:00 pm
I don't think Narcissa cared about the cruelty or danger that Voldy represents...I think that what led her to "save" Harry was her mother spirit...She was so scared about Draco, she loved him so, that she saw him in Harry...From my point of view, she wasn't only trying to know if Draco was alive, because in that case she would have asked and then shouted the truth...and she didn't...I think she FELT that Harry had saved in some way Draco's life...that he didn't have to die...and so she saved him...

Mama_Molly
August 1st, 2007, 10:03 am
I'm sorry - and yes, I was FAR too long online :) - I don't get the joke. If it is a joke... What I meant was that no matter how pureblood elitistic they were, they couldn't sympathize with Voldemort any longer, and if only because he kept on constantly reminding them that he'd have their lives in the palm of his hand.
What i found amusing (and probably because I had been online too long) was that here at COS we have threaDs - about the HP saga - and many of them are about deaths . . . and you obviously meant to write threaTs of murder - and the slip up just gave me a bit of a jolly. I am sorry if you felt insulted.

And I understood what you meant, I agree that they couldn't have sympathized and hadn't in a long time. They had lived through so much in two major episodes of Volderism that they were desenstitized - and yet spoiled enough to not give in totally to the darkness where LV was leading everyone.

I felt so supported by JKR when ask in the online interview if the Malfoys went to Askaban and she wrote, "No, the Malfoys weaseled their way out of trouble (again) due to the fact that they colluded (albeit out of self-interest) with Harry at the end of the battle."

And:
Abjoppotter: Is narcissa malfoy really a death eater

J.K. Rowling: No, she never had the Dark Mark and was never a fully paid-up member. However, her views were identical to those of her husband until Voldemort planned the death of her son (Italics mine)

So Cissy's actions actually saved the whole family - even though the guys did nuttin'! In fact Malfoy (who was using Mum's wand) and Crabbes and Goyle were even very close to the end trying to get at Harry and stop him from succeeding!

Drusilla
August 1st, 2007, 10:31 am
It's the ultimate smack in the face to Voldemort, the fact that love was what kept undoing him right from the start- first Lily, then Snape, then Harry himself, and then Narcissa- who I see as a woman whose first priority, much like Molly Weasley, is the safety and happiness of her family (even if it is a rather nasty family)- if she sided with the Death Eaters at first, it was because she was following Lucius's line that it was what was best for them- extremely opportunistic they were, that way.
But her lie to Voldemort was prompted by nothing more than concern for her son- she wanted to get in and find Draco at any cost, and it says something for her state of mind that she could well have been subjected to Legilimency at that instant, and he'd have killed her for it- she lied anyway. I honestly don't think she cared about Voldemort's defeat or anything else just then.

wickedwickedboy
August 1st, 2007, 10:37 am
I don't think her lying to Voldemort had anything to do with Draco. She was growing tired of being married to Lucius and was planning to re-marry. She saved Harry because she saw him as a possible prospective Husband.

Drusilla
August 1st, 2007, 10:49 am
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
Best theory I've heard so far! (and didn't she get her sister to duel Harry's girlfriend, too?)

Mechouille
August 1st, 2007, 12:07 pm
:lol::lol:
Yes, Narcissa would probably see Harry as a nice husband, and wanted to have a happy new family and be friend with muggleborn!

Seriously, I think Narcissa betrayed Voldemort the night she went at Snape's house, begging for her son's life. As Bellatrix and Snape told her, it was a betrayal to spread Voldemort's plans. At that time, she may did not want Voldemort to be defeat, so her betrayal was not so huge.

And then, she did not care anymore. Since Voldemort's return, her family was in constant danger and pain. Lucius was sent in prison, and was probably tortured by Voldemort when he learned about the diary (no canon, just a thought). Draco was used by Voldemort to kill, torture, etc. Their house were not theirs anymore, with DEs all the time, prisonners, murders... And in DH, their humiliation was at the top, with Lucius losing his wand. She knew that if they did one bad step, they would be killed.
So, if Voldemort was defeated, she could had saved her son, but she also could had provided a better life for her whole family.

The Malfoys evolution was very interesting.

Fleur du mal
August 1st, 2007, 1:05 pm
I don't think her lying to Voldemort had anything to do with Draco. She was growing tired of being married to Lucius and was planning to re-marry. She saved Harry because she saw him as a possible prospective Husband.

What makes you think that? You think Lucius' hairline is receding, too? :lol:


@MamaMolly - I didn't feel offended at all :) (I was rather worried what the heck I might have written)

@Mechouille - yes, I actually think Lucius was tortured for losing the diary. We've seen Voldemort's reaction to more minor offenses (like Avery not knowing that the prophecy could not be touched), and we did hear 'that the diary had been destroyed until he forced the truth out of Lucius Malfoy. When Voldemort discovered that the diary had been mutilated and robbed of all its powers, I am told that his anger was terrible to behold.' (HBP, Bloomsbury edition, p. 474, underlinings done by myself)

I don't think it was Azkaban that had broken so much like we see him in 'The Dark Lord Ascending'. He was in there for one year, with the Dementors gone already. The apathetic attitude doesn't come from sitting in an uncomfortable prison cell for one year.

Drusilla
August 1st, 2007, 1:21 pm
Good point, Azkaban might have been awful without the Dementors but I'm sure the worst that happened to Lucius was the fact of his downfall from favour with Voldemort- and torture must have entered the picture somewhere after Voldemort found out the diary was gone.

luxlight
August 1st, 2007, 4:55 pm
Good point, Azkaban might have been awful without the Dementors but I'm sure the worst that happened to Lucius was the fact of his downfall from favour with Voldemort- and torture must have entered the picture somewhere after Voldemort found out the diary was gone.

Not just the diary, but more probably Lucius failure in the Ministry (no fault of his own since he could hardly know Snape would send words to the Order on what was going on in the Ministry of Magic. Harry did let Snape in on the going ons in the Ministry with his cryptical message. Lucius was surprised by their arrival). Lucius 'dropped' the prophecy and I'm sure he was severly punished for his failures to obtain it.

I agree with you about Azkaban. One year in Azkaban with the Dementors gone would hardly make a man apathetic. Perhaps Lucius was tortured on a regular basis during the whole time Voldemort and his Death Eaters invaded their home. They were like prisoners in their own home, they tortured and humilated Lucius, took his wand. Then having the nutter Bellatrix teaching Draco the Unforgivables and make him use it. Who knows, perhaps Voldemort forced Draco to use the Cruciatus curse on Lucius. Long time exposure to torture and pain can break anyone's spirit. And not being able to help your child in distress would to. Luckily Narcissa didn't break and was able to keep calm and supporting when it seemed Lucius was loosing his.

Ifink2much
August 1st, 2007, 7:56 pm
I don't think her lying to Voldemort had anything to do with Draco. She was growing tired of being married to Lucius and was planning to re-marry. She saved Harry because she saw him as a possible prospective Husband.

:lol:

Yeah tired of being married to lucious.....always bringing his work home with him.

Mama_Molly
August 1st, 2007, 8:11 pm
Actually, I think that for someone who is used to such a pampered life, entering the doorway to Askaban even without Dementors would make him weak - but I do believe he was abused horribly by Vldmrd.

Snape_is_a_stud
August 1st, 2007, 8:17 pm
I don't think her lying to Voldemort had anything to do with Draco. She was growing tired of being married to Lucius and was planning to re-marry. She saved Harry because she saw him as a possible prospective Husband.

mmmm... not sure she say Harry as a prospective husband, i'm sure she was after Hagrid. Or have i got that wrong lol:lol:

Ronni_SL
August 1st, 2007, 8:44 pm
Nobody knew the full prophecy but Dumbledore and Harry so I doubt that Narcissa really thought "oh the prophecy is true", but I do think the fact that Harry was alive through another AK revealed a lot to her.

The Malfoy's were definitely regretting their decisions to be involved with Voldemort.

Lucius went to Azkaban doing Voldemort's work and was still abused by Voldemort for his failures. Voldemort event took his wand and left him wandless.

Draco was basically set up to die trying to kill Dumbledore because Voldemort was angry at his dad.

Narcissa had to watch Voldemort humiliate her husband, try to kill her son and take over her home.

Their allegiance to Voldemort was over pretty early on in this book.

Elysia
August 1st, 2007, 9:14 pm
I was going to write an explanation, but the best way is to use the text right from the book. Narcissa's choice to lie had nothing to do with realizing about the prophecy and whatnot. Her only concern was her son, and has been all along, and for that I admire her, especially in that moment because she took such a big risk in not exposing Harry just so she could find Draco. And again it is Voldemort's own stupidity because he did not understand love and therefore never saw Narcissa's betrayal (so to speak) coming.

Um... I thought you were going to use text right from the book.

Where did it go?

:lol:

Fleur du mal
August 1st, 2007, 9:54 pm
The Malfoy's were definitely regretting their decisions to be involved with Dumbledore.

uhm... :hmm: you mean Voldemort...?

TreacleFudge
August 1st, 2007, 10:14 pm
:lol::lol:
Yes, Narcissa would probably see Harry as a nice husband, and wanted to have a happy new family and be friend with muggleborn!

Seriously, I think Narcissa betrayed Voldemort the night she went at Snape's house, begging for her son's life. As Bellatrix and Snape told her, it was a betrayal to spread Voldemort's plans. At that time, she may did not want Voldemort to be defeat, so her betrayal was not so huge.

And then, she did not care anymore. Since Voldemort's return, her family was in constant danger and pain. Lucius was sent in prison, and was probably tortured by Voldemort when he learned about the diary (no canon, just a thought). Draco was used by Voldemort to kill, torture, etc. Their house were not theirs anymore, with DEs all the time, prisonners, murders... And in DH, their humiliation was at the top, with Lucius losing his wand. She knew that if they did one bad step, they would be killed.
So, if Voldemort was defeated, she could had saved her son, but she also could had provided a better life for her whole family.

The Malfoys evolution was very interesting.


I agree. The change of the Malfoys had been going for a long time, and the outcome of the war has not mattered to them for a long time: they just want to be safe. And yet, they are still tortured and humiliated. When Narcissa finds that Harry is alive, her mind does not wander to the prophecy....she just wants her son, and by stating that Harry is dead, she will be able to reach him sooner.

Fleur du mal
August 1st, 2007, 10:23 pm
Harry being alive must an actual ray of hope for her.

An hour earlier, Lucius was told by Voldemort himself that his son's life was forfeited. She'd safely lose Draco if Voldemort came trhough. And here comes Harry, about everybody had said he was the Chosen One, the boy that even Voldemort seemed to fear. I think in that moment, it was just the irrational hope and the idea 'maybe it's true! maybe he can win this - and when he does, Draco will live!'

Ronni_SL
August 2nd, 2007, 1:46 am
uhm... :hmm: you mean Voldemort...?

HA, yes Voldemort not Dumbledore. :lol:

Phil_Stone
August 2nd, 2007, 5:15 am
HBP showed us that Narcissa, in contrast with her sister, was a mother first. In DH the mothers all come through for their children. And that is something Voldemort would not understand, in spite of his propensity for threatening people through their families.

Amortentia11
August 2nd, 2007, 7:00 am
I agree 99 per cent. Her motivation was only getting to her son, and if Harry had said he was dead, I think she would have broken down [letting Voldemort know something was wrong instantly]. She would not cared what happened to anyone if Draco was dead- herself included.

true, very true. i quite agree

Fleur du mal
August 2nd, 2007, 9:29 am
HBP showed us that Narcissa, in contrast with her sister, was a mother first. In DH the mothers all come through for their children.

No... Not all mothers. Tonks died, despite little Teddy.

Wright1771
August 13th, 2007, 9:11 am
It's funny isn't it, but when Dumbldeore told Harry that 'love would destroy Voldemort', I had no idea that that meant Narcissa's love for her son!

mkm25
August 20th, 2007, 6:10 pm
I think Narcissa was just a product of the environment she was brought up in. She had the same views that her family had as she had not been brought up to think any differently. Although Andromeda and Sirius were able to break away from what their families said that they should be they were braver people than Narcissa and probably more intelligent as well.
Although at the end Narcissa did a nice thing it was only to save Draco. The Malfoy's in general just struck me as out for their own family basically they didn't really care if Voldemort won or lost and to be honest if Draco hadn't been in the castle I don't know that Narcissa would have bothered helping Harry as there would be nothing in it for her.

mugglebeki
August 20th, 2007, 9:06 pm
Although I agree that Narcissa's main concern was her son Draco's safety and well being, it seems to me that at this point she was fed up with Voldemort and the DE's. We've seen how Voldemort seized her mansion and transformed it into headquarters for the Dark Forces, punishing, torturing and killing whoever he pleased. I'm sure she did not willfuly surrender her home for such atrocities. Her husband was subject to denigration and stripped of his wand in his own house, and her son was terrified every time he was ordered to do anything for the Dark Lord or any of his DE's.
From HBP we've seen Narcissa as a loving mother, going to the extreme of an Unbreakable Vow with Snape for the protection of her only son. So, when Voldemort asked her to check on Harry, she saw her chance to find out if her son was alive. I found this scene one of the most tender in the book, proving that love overcomes everything, and Narcissa's love for her son and for her husband was more important to her than loyalty to Voldemort.

I'm not too sure, though, about the "revelation". Maybe she just saw that it was not worth the effort to remain on Voldemort's side.

Voldemorts8thHorcrux
August 29th, 2007, 11:12 pm
The Malfoys are only concerned with themselves, but I thought it was sweet how Narcissa helped Harry. Either way, the Malfoys are going to have a tough time, the Death Eaters are going to be really mad at them. Lucius will be an enemy to the Ministry, though I'm not too sure about Draco and Narcissa.

Sesshoumaru
August 29th, 2007, 11:22 pm
The Malfoys are only concerned with themselves, but I thought it was sweet how Narcissa helped Harry. Either way, the Malfoys are going to have a tough time, the Death Eaters are going to be really mad at them. Lucius will be an enemy to the Ministry, though I'm not too sure about Draco and Narcissa.

Well I don't see it as she helped Harry so much as she didn't help Voldemort.

Voldemort had delibrately tried to get Draco killed, and as bad as she was she still had her maternal side and by that time no longer cared about Voldemort, just about Draco...

She wanted to get inside Hogwarts as soon as possible to find out how Draco was, and if Harry wasn't dead she knew that it would take longer, so when she found out he was alive (Harry that is, then of course that Draco was too) she just decided to let Voldemort believe he was dead so that she could head back into Hogwarts and find her son.

All in all it still a self-centered act, had Draco been killed she would have likely tell Voldemort Harry was still alive.

hpivanaph
August 30th, 2007, 10:45 pm
I was pretty sceptical of how Rowling choose to make NB behave, after all … if she had told Hp was alive, he would have been killed with another killing curse!!!! And the winning troops would have enter in the castle anyway!
But you really make this point clear… I guess she could wait no longer to get in the castle and see the son.
Maybe NB figured what would have been to see Draco and the floor in the castle and having to check if he was alive ore dead, both Draco an HP had to face in the books a lot of things (on opposite sides) that probably were too big for two teenagers.. no matter what events force you to do… a mother will always care for his sons and daughters

From Narcissa's POV, she doesn't yet know which is the winning troop. Harry had just been hit by avada kedavra, which is supposed to be unblockable. Now, he has survived it twice. I don't know, but if I were Narcissa, I would think that Harry is not kill-able. On the other hand, Voldemort already proved that he did not care whether Draco lived or died; furthermore, he wasn't pleased when Draco did not join him like the other slytherins when they evacuated the school.

Voldemorts8thHorcrux
August 31st, 2007, 12:17 am
Originally Posted by marcarm
I was pretty sceptical of how Rowling choose to make NB behave, after all … if she had told Hp was alive, he would have been killed with another killing curse!!!! And the winning troops would have enter in the castle anyway!
But you really make this point clear… I guess she could wait no longer to get in the castle and see the son.
Maybe NB figured what would have been to see Draco and the floor in the castle and having to check if he was alive ore dead, both Draco an HP had to face in the books a lot of things (on opposite sides) that probably were too big for two teenagers.. no matter what events force you to do… a mother will always care for his sons and daughters

Well, for JKR, i suppose that's why Narcissa said Harry was dead. But JKR isn't the kind of author who does that, I think that she said it because then she could get to the castle quicker. And besides, he seemed unkillable (nice word :lol:) enough so it would just be wasting time. Even if she didn't feel that way, it could also be a way of expressing gratitude.

myndon
August 31st, 2007, 1:01 am
That's the downside of working with a bunch of Slytherins. Ultimately, when people are working only for themselves, you can't ever truly trust them. Voldemort was betrayed by both Snape and Narcissa because he didn't understand the different types of love motivated them. They both were simply serving their own desires of safety for the ones they loved (Snape for Lily and Narcissa for Draco)...and like any good Slytherin they did everything in their power to see those wishes fulfilled (although Snape ultimately failed)...

mariebeth83
August 31st, 2007, 1:48 am
I don't think anyone besides Dumbledore & Harry knew the precise details of the prophecy, so I don't think it was the because of the prophecy that she did this

It was the one redeemable quality of the Malfoys that they cared more about saving Draco than anything else, over the course of DH I began to feel more sympathetic to them, it just goes to show what JKR was meaning about love being more powerful than anything - they might not have been able to love anyone else, but they obviously loved their son and this is what redeemed them in the end.

I don't think they had to worry about the death eaters or the ministry, JKR said in her online chat that they managed to get themselves out of trouble so I think that they were ok afterwards. Obviously we know Draco was okay cos we saw him in the epilogue!

Sacred_Memories
August 31st, 2007, 2:29 am
I find Narcissa an extremely interesting character. Even in the sixth book, she showed her everlasting love for her son, I think JK Rowling showed this as foreshadowing. She was never a DE, and she never killed, and didn't like to be in Voldemort's group. And since Voldemort always thought that love was something stupid, he couldn't foresee Narcissa's betrayal to him.

SuzieLovesSnape
September 2nd, 2007, 12:29 pm
That's the downside of working with a bunch of Slytherins.

Very well said!

When it came down to it, Narcissa put herself [through protecting her family] above everything else. Even though Voldemort was her husband's and son's master, when it came down to it she was happy to betray him.

By being there she was outwardly showing her support of him and the side of evil [even if she really was there to keep an eye on the action and be close to her family], yet she was responsible for his subsquential death.

loonyluna0114
September 3rd, 2007, 2:33 pm
I think her soul purpose at this moment was to find her son. She knew Harry had information on him so wasnt going to let on that he was still alive if there was a chance she culd save her son.
I dont think shes ever been keen on her house having ebcome headquarters for death eaters, however she didnt really have a choice due to mistakes made by ehr husband. She has only gone along with Voldemorts way of doing things because of her son.

Ssimmons112487
September 4th, 2007, 3:51 am
Yeah it's good that Narcissa saved Harry- because like the book said- she wouldn't have been able to get into the castle to find her son until voldy conquered- plus- its because of Harry that Draco was alive in the castle anyway- since he had saved him from that fiendfyre.

Ifink2much
September 4th, 2007, 5:51 pm
Narcissa didn't really mean to help harry,if she had a better chance of saving Draco by saying he wasn't dead then she would have,so I can't give her credit for anything.

Fleur du mal
September 4th, 2007, 6:06 pm
Narcissa didn't really mean to help harry,if she had a better chance of saving Draco by saying he wasn't dead then she would have,so I can't give her credit for anything.

Well, technically, she could have said 'Oi guys, he's still alive. Maybe we should try something new and simply slash his throat with a knife for a change?' - in that case, she would have been aprt of a conquering army, too.

Ifink2much
September 4th, 2007, 6:15 pm
Well, technically, she could have said 'Oi guys, he's still alive. Maybe we should try something new and simply slash his throat with a knife for a change?' - in that case, she would have been aprt of a conquering army, too.

It seems this was the quickest way to get into the castle.The Malfoys go throughout the whole books not caring who lives and who dies,I don't feel they changed even at the end.

Fleur du mal
September 4th, 2007, 6:34 pm
It seems this was the quickest way to get into the castle.The Malfoys go throughout the whole books not caring who lives and who dies,I don't feel they changed even at the end.

The quickest? Maybe, even though I would say that a quick stab with a dagger wouldn't have delayed them very much. But the point really is - Harry was NOT dead. Knowing Harry just the tiniest bit - from hearing about him for ages, by seeing him save even Griphook in Malfoy Manor (someone thoroughly unconnected to him), knowing how Harry had never before given up, Narcissa must have known that he wouldn't give up fighting now either, so claiming he was dead was the most dangerous option for her, personally. What good would have been to enter Hogwarts, only to be discovered a liar five minutes into the whole business, knowing what a vindictive spirit Voldemort had? She might have been forced to kill her own child, only for revenge, or at least have been killed herself - she knew that Voldemort wasn't fussy, or forgiving.

snapegirl
September 4th, 2007, 6:39 pm
Well, technically, she could have said 'Oi guys, he's still alive. Maybe we should try something new and simply slash his throat with a knife for a change?' - in that case, she would have been aprt of a conquering army, too.
I agree. She could have asked about Draco, then told Voldemort that Harry was still alive. But she didn't and I think it goes with the Malfoys' feelings during DH. They seemed scared and tired of Voldemort. Narcissa decided that she didn't care about Voldemort winning anymore and Harry was the best defense against him. I think it was a huge change on her part.

Ifink2much
September 4th, 2007, 6:54 pm
The quickest? Maybe, even though I would say that a quick stab with a dagger wouldn't have delayed them very much. But the point really is - Harry was NOT dead. Knowing Harry just the tiniest bit - from hearing about him for ages, by seeing him save even Griphook in Malfoy Manor (someone thoroughly unconnected to him), knowing how Harry had never before given up, Narcissa must have known that he wouldn't give up fighting now either, so claiming he was dead was the most dangerous option for her, personally. What good would have been to enter Hogwarts, only to be discovered a liar five minutes into the whole business, knowing what a vindictive spirit Voldemort had? She might have been forced to kill her own child, only for revenge, or at least have been killed herself - she knew that Voldemort wasn't fussy, or forgiving.

The reason I say the quickest is because Harry then had the protection(if I understand correctly),so killing him wouldn't have been that simple,there would at least be some time before she got to the castle,Draco could be dead by then.My main point is Narcissa said what helped her,it wasn't out of concern for Harry or the side of good.

snapegirl
September 4th, 2007, 7:01 pm
The reason I say the quickest is because Harry then had the protection(if I understand correctly),so killing him wouldn't have been that simple,there would at least be some time before she got to the castle,Draco could be dead by then.My main point is Narcissa said what helped her,it wasn't out of concern for Harry or the side of good.
But did Narcissa know about or understand anything about any protection that Harry had? Maybe she thought that magic wouldn't kill him or that only Voldemort couldn't kill him. If she really didn't care about Harry at that point, I don't think she would have put her life or her family's lifes in danger.

Ifink2much
September 4th, 2007, 7:08 pm
But did Narcissa know about or understand anything about any protection that Harry had? Maybe she thought that magic wouldn't kill him or that only Voldemort couldn't kill him. If she really didn't care about Harry at that point, I don't think she would have put her life or her family's lifes in danger.

True but she didn't put her families life in danger,Draco's life was already in danger.I just personally believe that her actions served only her purpose(in true Slytherin manner actually)