Ron and his deluminator return [Archive]

Unrepentant

August 6th, 2007, 11:51 pm

In DH, chapter "The Will of Albus Dumbledore", Ron gets the deluminator, and several chapters later, it helped the trio destroying the locket horcrux. When Ron explained about the Deluminator leading the way to Harry and Hermione's tent. At first, i was furious, i thought of this new discovered ability of the Deluminator as a cheap trick to rescue Harry again - again.
Therefore, i reread that part about the deluminator catching up one's name and make it able for one to eavesdrop on other's conversations.

Then it all made sense.

I mean, I've ALWAYS been bothered by the constant, and somewhat annoying, events where Albus Dumbledore knows it all. He seems to know EVERYTHING, even when it does not have a hippogriff's testicle to do with him.
He knew that Harry ventured into the forbidden corridor, and the chamber of secrets. He accepted the story about Sirius being innocent at once, and at the same time he constructed a perfect plan to assure sirius's escape. AND he knew about Impostor Moody. It's especially the latter thing that's been bothering me. How on earth did he know? (And even if he simply saw that both harry and IMoody was missing, and put together 2 and 2, why did he stun IMoody the first thing he did, entering IMoody's office?)

Well, he had the deluminator of course!

"... You were so long in that lake, Potter, that I thought you had drowned. But lyckily, Dumbledore took your idiocy for nobility and marked you high for it. I breathed again." - Mad-Eye Moody, GoF pg. 588 UK paperback.

If DD were in possession of a tool that would allow him to hear conversations when his name was spoken aloud, clearly it would've reacted on the above quote, and let him hear enough of Harry's and IMoody's conversation to understand that something was wrong. Since DD's interruption happened only half a page later, one could assume that he ran directly to the office mere moments after his name was spoken aloud.

This theory of the Deluminator being the thing behind Dubledore's knowledge, or at least a part of it, is also able to fit in PS/SS and perhaps also CoS. Dumbledore's name must,ve been spoken aloud a bazillion times in the Third corridor-maze, for example when Harry suggested that they should send an owl for the old man. There is a slight possibility that it was the Deluminator, rather than Hermione's owl, that made DD go back and save Harry in the very last minute.

JKR said it once in a book interview: "Yeah, Dumbledore pretty much knows everything that's going on."

Now we know how!

Or what do you think? Discuss! :tu:

Dumbledoreswand

August 7th, 2007, 9:34 am

Either way, this thread is brilliant as is the deluminator. Its a truely brilliant piece of magic. A very very powerful device.

Runes

August 7th, 2007, 10:06 am

This is the most brilliant theory I've EVER read. I wondered for ages how Dumbledore knew it all ..

OMG.. think of ALL the times the trio say his name. He'll know every single thing. Imagine what he thought when he heard them plan Dumbledore's Army? :wow:

NRHP

August 7th, 2007, 1:10 pm

If DD were in possession of a tool that would allow him to hear conversations when his name was spoken aloud, clearly it would've reacted on the above quote, and let him hear enough of Harry's and IMoody's conversation to understand that something was wrong. Since DD's interruption happened only half a page later, one could assume that he ran directly to the office mere moments after his name was spoken aloud.

This theory of the Deluminator being the thing behind Dubledore's knowledge, or at least a part of it, is also able to fit in PS/SS and perhaps also CoS. Dumbledore's name must,ve been spoken aloud a bazillion times in the Third corridor-maze, for example when Harry suggested that they should send an owl for the old man. There is a slight possibility that it was the Deluminator, rather than Hermione's owl, that made DD go back and save Harry in the very last minute.

JKR said it once in a book interview: "Yeah, Dumbledore pretty much knows everything that's going on."

Now we know how!

Or what do you think? Discuss! :tu:

Brilliant! It was there for all to see, but I didn't make the connection! If I come to think of it, putting out light is just a minor side function of the Deluminator; it probably stores the light away to use it when you activate the guidance function.

Scato

August 7th, 2007, 1:54 pm

I was thinking that as well. It was Hermione who said his name, so either it has something to do with the feelings he has for her or it is generally linked to Harry and Hermione and it was just coincidence that it was her voice. I think the blue light leads the owner of the diluminator where they desperately want to go. Ron wanted to go back to Harry and Hermione and that´s where the light led him. I actually found that quite a touching device. Not contrived at all.

They did put out lights with it as well. That is consistent with it´s previous use, IMO.

I think my problem, and apparently of others aswell, is that these functions are completely different. Putting out lights and eavesdropping and finding people have nothing to do with each other. To me, it would have been more convincing if, for example, a previously caught light could come out of the deluminator and find the lamp/light source where it originally came from. This could lead Ron back to the lamps in the tent and thus to Harry and Hermione. And at the same time it would be more consistent with its previous use and therefore look less contrived.

I have to say, though, that I really like Unrepentant's theory that the deluminator is the reason why Dumbledore always knew everything. That makes a lot of sense.

The biggest problem, for me, with the surprising revelations in DH is that there are so many of them. The deluminator, wandlore, parseltongue, deathly hallows - so many things that were vital to the plot were only introduced very late, some of them at points where they just seemed a bit too convinient. It's the same as the miraculous escapes (wedding, Godric's Hollow, Gringotts, etc). Every individual one may make sense, but the sheer number of them makes them look a bit too contrived and unconvincing.

Lillbet

August 7th, 2007, 2:43 pm

...think of ALL the times the trio say his name. He'll know every single thing. Imagine what he thought when he heard them plan Dumbledore's Army? :wow:

Probably why he was so "smooth" about claiming that the DA was, in fact, his creation when confronted by Fudge, et al. He was able to jump in and save Harry because he knew what was happening all along. :huh:

Runes

August 7th, 2007, 3:43 pm

:lol: He probably even heard Ron calling him mental a few times :rotfl:

I noted that in the Seer Overheard chapter in HBP, Harry hears Trelawny telling him about Dumbledore'e interview with herself, and later when Harry runs up to DD's office, Dumbledore seems surprised that Harry had heard about Snape being the eavesdropper. It would mean that by this time, DD had put the Deluminator away with his will, because he probably knew he could die any day.

ronjalina

August 7th, 2007, 4:55 pm

I think my problem, and apparently of others aswell, is that these functions are completely different. Putting out lights and eavesdropping and finding people have nothing to do with each other. To me, it would have been more convincing if, for example, a previously caught light could come out of the deluminator and find the lamp/light source where it originally came from. This could lead Ron back to the lamps in the tent and thus to Harry and Hermione. And at the same time it would be more consistent with its previous use and therefore look less contrived.But why couldn´t the deluminator have several functions? I mean, a lot of us likely have one of these multifunctional devices that are at the same time printer, scanner, fax... JKR could not give away the additional function of the deluminator earlier, because that would have spoilt the mystery around this object and the surprise as to how it was used to help Ron get back to Harry and Hermione. But, as she did with a lot of other objects as well, she mentioned it before. Once in the beginning of PS and once in OotP.

The biggest problem, for me, with the surprising revelations in DH is that there are so many of them. The deluminator, wandlore, parseltongue, deathly hallows - so many things that were vital to the plot were only introduced very late, some of them at points where they just seemed a bit too convinient. I actually was happy that she gave us new information in DH. It would have been a bore of a read if Harry had just gone Horcrux hunting. If she had stuck to that, we would likely complain about everything being predictable. The deluminator wasn´t completely new since it had been mentioned twice before in the books. Just not with it´s other function. We had already seen the three Deathly Hallows as well (Harry´s cloke, the ring, Dumbledore´s wand), so while the concept was new, the items were known. Wandlore had already been touched upon with the 'the wand choses the Wizard' rule and the Priori Incantatem effect of Harry and LV`s wands sharing the same wand-core. So, nothing of it was technically completely knew, we just learnt everything about it.

:lol: He probably even heard Ron calling him mental a few times :rotfl::lol: And Dumbles would have had a lot of fun with that.

It would mean that by this time, DD had put the Deluminator away with his will, because he probably knew he could die any day.Yes, that is the most likely explanation.

Elysia

August 7th, 2007, 4:56 pm

While Ron's using the deluminator to return did seem a bit contrived, it served to show that Dumbledore really knew his stuff, even that far in advance.

I also agree with those who have said that Ron's disappearance/reappearance served to break up some of the seemingly endless monotony of the camping trip.

Claudia

August 8th, 2007, 5:43 am

If DD were in possession of a tool that would allow him to hear conversations when his name was spoken aloud...

Which means that really, aside from Harry and Hermione, nobody loves Ron :p

Think about it: I totally buy the idea that Ron could not have heard Hermione shrieking for him during Bill and Fleur's wedding, what with all the chaos. And we know why it takes so long ("weeks--weeks"!) for Hermione to dare say his name in front of Harry after he's left. But they're more or less trapped at #12 GP for all of August, and then stuck in their tent from September through October (I'm guessing Ron took off at the beginning of November). Except for their reconnaissance trips--and they take turns doing those--the trio are sequestered in what ought to be optimal Deluminator eavesdropping conditions. And yet in all that time, none of Ron's family can be bothered to toss off an, "Oh yeah, wasn't there another brother around here somewhere? I wonder how Ron's getting on?"

Maybe they decided they liked the ghoul better ;)

HPGramp

August 8th, 2007, 9:11 am

Goldenhair

August 8th, 2007, 2:10 pm

I think unrepentant is spot on.

I bet the deluminator has to be 'tuned' to certain people. Otherwise how often in a school of a thousand kids (and as the most powerful and respected wizard in the world) would someone say your name??? Even comes up v. regularly from Death Eaters. Dumbledore would never have had a seconds peace. No, he invented it. He must have had some way to limit who he heard.

Second, DD says at end of Order of the Pheonix that he has watched Harry more closely than you can imagine. JKR certainly gave us a full hint there. I suspect he may have also been invisible and close by on one or two occassions ( i think particularly when Harry fights off dementors in the Prisoner of Azkaban).

I have lent out my book...but isn't the glow of Harry and Hermoine blue? I think so. Much like DD created something just like a portus? I think so anyway.

SSJ_Jup81

August 8th, 2007, 4:30 pm

I was really upset over Ron leaving, I just couldn't believe that he would do that to Harry and Hermione. I was getting really mad at Jo saying to myself, Ron would never do that.You're right he wouldn't (we find this out since time he left, and was away from the locket, he wanted to return), but a possessed Ron obviously would.:p

Dumbledoreswand

August 8th, 2007, 4:43 pm

Runes

August 8th, 2007, 5:07 pm

Don't you guys get it? Dumbledore didn't create that Deluminator so he could overhear conversations all over the wizarding world when his name was spoken.. (DD's ego isn't that big!) He created the Deluminator to eavesdrop on Harry, and whoever was in Harry's vicinity at the time.

I imagine if Harry was close enough, the Deluminator wouldn't work. But soon as Harry goes a distance away, the Deluminator starts tracking.

That's what it did with Ron.

IloveuHermione

August 8th, 2007, 5:09 pm

I'm sure Dumbledore had spies at Privet Drive even when Harry was a small child, and even made the odd stealth visit himself just to ensure that everything was all right...

Mrs. Figg :tu:

Salamandras

August 8th, 2007, 5:16 pm

I rather disliked the deluminator plot device as well... still didn't make any sense to me how he could find them just because he could hear them. I guess Britian is a small place (about the size of kentucky & ohio combined) so he was bound to find them eventually! :D lol

GodricsHallows

August 8th, 2007, 5:38 pm

I found the use of the Deluminator extremely contrived and was definitely the low point of the books for me. Having it be the first bit of magic ever experienced in the series, I had hoped that it would play a strong role in the end - however, I was sorely dissapointed. Here's why:

- One of the characteristics I loved about DD, and the series in general, was the use of relatively simple objects and concepts to achieve great accomplishments. A simple example of this would be how the Sorting Hat came to Harry's rescue in CoS, or the idea that love carries magical power much greater than any complex scheme Vodlemort can work out. As a result, when it turned out that the Deluminator had all sort of mystical powers, I was very dissapointed. I had hoped that this seemingly simple device would have helped the trio to defeat Voldemort without having to be imbued with all sorts of extra abilities.

- Throughout the series, Ron displays an uncanny knack for not being good at anything. Therefore, when it came to returning to the group I had severely hoped that he would think up something smart, clever, or at least using a great degree of heart and determination to get back. When the Deluminator solved his problems for him, giving him the mystical ability to travel wherever he wants to go, I also found that it shot down a great opportunity for Ron to display his strength of character, which he undoubtedly has but always seems to be overshadowed by Harry.

Overall, I found the Deluminator's abilities as a magical 'cure-all' really impacted the story. It seemed like a real cop-out, and given how well Rowling has managed to make everything flow together throughout the series, I wasn't impressed by how it was used to further the plot.

With respect to the function of the Deluminator - I believe that it has to be tied somewhat to the desires of the person whom it belongs to. This would explain why Ron only ever hears his name spoken by Hermione (and not by anybody else, surely someone would have mentioned Ron once somewhere else during his time away) and also why it leads him to them. Perhaps the Deluminator channels something like the Mirror of Erised - instead of showing you what you desire the most, it gives you clues as to what you desire the most, such as a location or sounds. As Ron clearly states that he wanted nothing more than to return to the group, the Deluminator would have helped him fulfill this desire. It would also explain how Dumbledore could keep track of Harry using it - although this is mostly speculation at this point. However, this has nothing to do with it's ability to capture light, which throws the whole theory up in the air. If I were to choose, I would go with this explanation:

Originally Posted by Scato
I think my problem, and apparently of others aswell, is that these functions are completely different. Putting out lights and eavesdropping and finding people have nothing to do with each other. To me, it would have been more convincing if, for example, a previously caught light could come out of the deluminator and find the lamp/light source where it originally came from. This could lead Ron back to the lamps in the tent and thus to Harry and Hermione. And at the same time it would be more consistent with its previous use and therefore look less contrived.

I believe this would work, althought it doesn't really do anything with respect to the radio ability - see what I mean about the Deluminator being a weak plot device? Oh well.. I still loved the book anyways.

So... what do YOU think?

ronjalina

August 8th, 2007, 5:49 pm

- Throughout the series, Ron displays an uncanny knack for not being good at anything. Therefore, when it came to returning to the group I had severely hoped that he would think up something smart, clever, or at least using a great degree of heart and determination to get back. When the Deluminator solved his problems for him, giving him the mystical ability to travel wherever he wants to go, I also found that it shot down a great opportunity for Ron to display his strength of character, which he undoubtedly has but always seems to be overshadowed by Harry.Yes, but whatever smart, clever or determined actions Ron would have taken to return, it would have been off-page and we would have only heard of it in hindsight when he recounted it to Harry and Hermione. And I think that would have taken up too much pagetime. The important thing was that Ron returned and that he had vital information from the wizarding world. I always felt that Ron showed heart and determination when he saved Harry´s life and faced his insecurities and destroyed the locket.

With respect to the function of the Deluminator - I believe that it has to be tied somewhat to the desires of the person whom it belongs to. This would explain why Ron only ever hears his name spoken by Hermione (and not by anybody else, surely someone would have mentioned Ron once somewhere else during his time away) and also why it leads him to them. Perhaps the Deluminator channels something like the Mirror of Erised - instead of showing you what you desire the most, it gives you clues as to what you desire the most, such as a location or sounds. As Ron clearly states that he wanted nothing more than to return to the group, the Deluminator would have helped him fulfill this desire. I agree with this explanation. I think that is how the deluminator works. And that is likely the reason why I think the deluminator is such a touching advice and I am not bothered by its use. :)

HMN

August 9th, 2007, 1:38 am

I thought of this the other day - in GoF Harry kept mentioning that maybe they were being 'bugged' and then it was dismissed as 'those electrical devices that muggles use wouldn't work here' - but then we see Dumbldore creates his Deluminator, which in many ways acted like a bugging device. Just an interesting connection to the 4th book that popped into my head. :)

KBPadfoot

May 31st, 2008, 11:38 am

meesha1971

June 1st, 2008, 4:09 am

Ok , i have been thinking, and i have no idea if this has been mentioned before buuuuut i have a theory.

i cant remember the exact wording but, dumbledore once says 'help will alllways be avalible to those at hogwarts who ask for it".Put this into context now we know what the deluminator does.

think to all the battle scenes, Dumbledore allways turns up right after theyve been talking about him,after someones said his name.

Chamber of secrets,when riddle is goading harry,Harrys says that Dumbledore was more powerfull than Voldy, then taadaa Fawkes appears, Dumbledore later says 'you must have shown real loyalty to be down in the chamber' well mabey he was the one who sent fawkes because harry said his name,and he knew something was up via the deluminator.

Thoughts?

That is an excellent point. I hadn't considered that, but I think you might be right.

PS/SS -

Before Harry goes on to face Quirrell, he says Dumbledore's name when he tells Hermione to go back, wake up Ron, fly back out, and send Dumbledore an owl.
.
By the time Hermione gets Ron woke up and they get back to the Entrance Hall, Dumbledore is arriving and he knows where Harry is.

COS -

Harry tells Riddlemort that Dumbledore is the greatest sorcerer in the world and that he bets Dumbledore saw right through him, etc... - says Dumbledore's name several times there.
.
Fawkes shows up with the Sorting Hat.

POA -

When Harry wakes up in the hospital wing, he says he needs to see the headmaster - not specifically saying Dumbledore's name, but using his title.
.
Dumbledore shows up almost immediately.

GOF -

Crouch Jr. - in the guise of Moody - says Dumbledore's name several times when he's telling Harry how he got him through the tournament.
.
Dumbledore shows up to rescue Harry.

OOTP -

Dumbledore's name was said in the DoM a few times after they encountered the Death Eaters.
.
The Order arrives shortly after - followed by Dumbledore after he talked to Kreacher.

Now that we know how the deluminator worked - at least generally - it does seem that Dumbledore may have been using it all along to help him be where he needed to be. That's very interesting. :)

HedwigOwl

June 1st, 2008, 4:47 am

That is an excellent point. I hadn't considered that, but I think you might be right.

PS/SS -

Before Harry goes on to face Quirrell, he says Dumbledore's name when he tells Hermione to go back, wake up Ron, fly back out, and send Dumbledore an owl.
.
By the time Hermione gets Ron woke up and they get back to the Entrance Hall, Dumbledore is arriving and he knows where Harry is.

This is the instance where I could agree, I always wondered how Dumbledore knew to come back and look for the trio.

COS -

Harry tells Riddlemort that Dumbledore is the greatest sorcerer in the world and that he bets Dumbledore saw right through him, etc... - says Dumbledore's name several times there.
.
Fawkes shows up with the Sorting Hat.

This one, maybe. Fawkes could have been acting on his own. While Fawkes is totally loyal to Dumbledore, he has also shown, I believe, an unusual connection with Harry as well (whenever Harry's in Dumbledore's office). And Harry does have Fawkes' feather in his wand.

POA -

When Harry wakes up in the hospital wing, he says he needs to see the headmaster - not specifically saying Dumbledore's name, but using his title.
.
Dumbledore shows up almost immediately.

Don't agree with this one. Dumbledore didn't show up immediately, there was a lot of conversation with Harry, Madam Pomfrey, Fudge and Snape. At that point Dumbledore had been talking to Sirius, and after hearing what happened, he would have gone straightaway to see Hermione & Harry, because he realized they had time traveled. In fact, when he insists with Madam Pomfrey that he has to see them right away, he mentions that he has been talking with Sirius in the same sentence.

GOF -

Crouch Jr. - in the guise of Moody - says Dumbledore's name several times when he's telling Harry how he got him through the tournament.
.
Dumbledore shows up to rescue Harry.

Don't agree here either, because Dumbledore specifically tells Harry that as soon as fake Moody took Harry away from the area, he knew something was wrong, that the real Moody would never have done that. He gathered Snape & McGonagall as quickly as he could and went up to the castle.

OOTP -

Dumbledore's name was said in the DoM a few times after they encountered the Death Eaters.
.
The Order arrives shortly after - followed by Dumbledore after he talked to Kreacher.

I don't think this one works, either. Dumbledore tells Harry that it was Snape who discerned what happened when Harry & Hermione didn't return from the forest, and Snape who alerted the Order, and asked Sirius to stay behind to fill in Dumbledore, who was due at headquarters at any moment. Sirius did not stay, of course, so it was only after using Legilimency on Kreacher that Dumbledore knew where everyone had gone. That's why there was a delay in Dumbledore's arrival. If the deluminator worked the way it's proposed, he would have just used it, it would have saved valuable time.

It is an intriguing thought, but I don't think Dumbledore used the deluminator that way himself, I think he had other ways of keeping tabs -- what if no one said his name? He might never get there. I think Dumbledore altered the deluminator specifically to help Ron find his way back, if he needed to.

mweasley

June 1st, 2008, 2:28 pm

Kind of like putting a can opener on your iPod.

So very true.

I find it strange that the name changed from a put-outer to deluminator.

I also find it strange that in all the time Ron had the deluminator on his person he never heard the voice of anyone else who mentioned his name. You know Molly would have been mentioning his name regularly, but Ron never hears her.

For the deluminator to work you thus have to want to find someone and they have to say your name (or so my guess would be). Rather limits the use of the item.

In a way I don't find it strange. When we first read the opening chapters of PS/SS we haven't even heard of the many strange things that are found in the magical world. We are new muggles;) that are just then being educated in magical things. JKR putting it as a simple 'put outer' for the new people reading seems to fit the simpleness of the first book. When it is later named the deluminator it is after we have all been pretty well educated on magical abilities, devices and such. By the fifth book we are used to hearing the strange names of such items.;)
The entire series was that way for me. As the books 'matured' so to speak, our knowledge of JKR's magical world did too.
Kim

KBPadfoot

June 1st, 2008, 2:44 pm

You know Molly would have been mentioning his name regularly, but Ron never hears her.

I dont think its just saying a name tho.
If my dumbledore and the deluminator thing is true and we think back to CoS Dumbledore says 'you must have shown real loyalty to me down in the chamber' .Its not about just saying someones name.If Molly had really wanted him back (yes i know he's he son so she would have been reluctant for him to be off saving the world but i think she also knows that he has to)Ron probably would have heard her.

You've got to really mean it, to really want someone there,To be completely loyal to said person for it to work...

just my 2 cents

HedwigOwl

June 1st, 2008, 5:24 pm

I dont think its just saying a name tho.
If my dumbledore and the deluminator thing is true and we think back to CoS Dumbledore says 'you must have shown real loyalty to me down in the chamber' .Its not about just saying someones name.If Molly had really wanted him back (yes i know he's he son so she would have been reluctant for him to be off saving the world but i think she also knows that he has to)Ron probably would have heard her.

You've got to really mean it, to really want someone there,To be completely loyal to said person for it to work...

just my 2 cents

I think you're on to something here. As I noted in my last post, what if no one ever said your name? Or said it too late to matter if you were there or not (theory of Dumbledore's use of it)? It's true that Ron first realizes what the deluminator would do for him when he hears Hermione say his name -- but it's also true that Harry & Hermione spent a lot of time before that trying to not say his name, because both were still so upset that he left. So your view makes sense to me.:agree:

chmpgnrose

June 1st, 2008, 6:05 pm

I think Ron was regretting for abandoning the trio which is the reason for his return.

HedwigOwl

June 1st, 2008, 6:20 pm

I think Ron was regretting for abandoning the trio which is the reason for his return.
I don't think that was it, because Ron tells them that he wanted to return right away, so his regret was pretty much immediate, but the deluminator did nothing.

"I wanted to come back the minute I'd Disapparated, but I walked straight into a gang of Snatchers, Hermione, and I couldn't go anywhere!"

"Then two of them got into a fight and while the others were distracted I managed to hit the one holding me in the stomach, grabbed his wand, Disarmed the bloke holding mine, and Disapparated. I didn't do it well, Splinched myself again" -- Ron held up his right hand to show two missing fingernails; Hermione raised her eyebrows coldly -- "and I came out miles from where you were. By the time I got back to that bit of riverbank where we'd been...you'd gone."

KBPadfoot

June 1st, 2008, 7:58 pm

I don't think that was it, because Ron tells them that he wanted to return right away, so his regret was pretty much immediate, but the deluminator did nothing

Indeed

ronjalina

June 1st, 2008, 9:18 pm

In a way I don't find it strange. When we first read the opening chapters of PS/SS we haven't even heard of the many strange things that are found in the magical world. We are new muggles;) that are just then being educated in magical things. JKR putting it as a simple 'put outer' for the new people reading seems to fit the simpleness of the first book. When it is later named the deluminator it is after we have all been pretty well educated on magical abilities, devices and such. By the fifth book we are used to hearing the strange names of such items.;)
The entire series was that way for me. As the books 'matured' so to speak, our knowledge of JKR's magical world did too.
Kim:agree: And it makes sense to call the deluminator 'put-outer' the first time we readers meet it onpage, because it does look like one and so we can imagine it best. And it's not unusual for things to have several denominations.

I do think the deluminator worked in two-ways. One: the name had to be spoken and two: the person wearing the deluminator really, really had to want to be where the person who spoke the name was. That might be why Ron never heard his parents' voices who - I'm sure - have said his name more often than not, worrying about him. And while Ron certainly would have loved to be home with his family, he knew his place was somewhere else, with his friends. So that was where he wanted to be. I think it is also poignant that it was Hermione who said his name first, so maybe the romantic feelings between the two were, if not the requirement for the deluminator to work, but at least a supporting factor (yes, I am a sap :lol:)

meesha1971

June 2nd, 2008, 2:47 am

This one, maybe. Fawkes could have been acting on his own. While Fawkes is totally loyal to Dumbledore, he has also shown, I believe, an unusual connection with Harry as well (whenever Harry's in Dumbledore's office). And Harry does have Fawkes' feather in his wand.

Well, as KBPadfoot pointed out, there is more involved there than just saying the name. Ron didn't hear anyone else saying his name through the deluminator though it is very likely that members of his family would have mentioned his name - and not just during the time he was gone, but throughout the entire quest. It wasn't just the fact that Hermione said Ron's name - it was also the fact that Ron desperately wanted to find them again.

Don't agree with this one. Dumbledore didn't show up immediately, there was a lot of conversation with Harry, Madam Pomfrey, Fudge and Snape. At that point Dumbledore had been talking to Sirius, and after hearing what happened, he would have gone straightaway to see Hermione & Harry, because he realized they had time traveled. In fact, when he insists with Madam Pomfrey that he has to see them right away, he mentions that he has been talking with Sirius in the same sentence.

Actually, it was almost immediately - I read through that scene before I posted to be sure. It is a very short conversation - time enough for Dumbledore to walk down from where Sirius was being held to the hospital wing. You can't apparate at Hogwarts and there was no need to use that function of the deluminator there because Harry was so close by. Dumbledore showed up very quickly there. I always felt that was such a big coincidence - another one of those moments where Dumbledore just showed up at the just the right time to help Harry. The deluminator explains how Dumbledore could know Harry was awake and needed to talk to him.

Don't agree here either, because Dumbledore specifically tells Harry that as soon as fake Moody took Harry away from the area, he knew something was wrong, that the real Moody would never have done that. He gathered Snape & McGonagall as quickly as he could and went up to the castle.

And they go straight to Moody's office where Dumbledore fires a stunning spell through the door - again, just in the nick of time - another big coincidence. Why was Dumbledore so sure that Moody and Harry were in there even though the door was shut? Most likely because he used the deluminator to pinpoint Harry's location because he knew time was off the essence.

I don't think this one works, either. Dumbledore tells Harry that it was Snape who discerned what happened when Harry & Hermione didn't return from the forest, and Snape who alerted the Order, and asked Sirius to stay behind to fill in Dumbledore, who was due at headquarters at any moment. Sirius did not stay, of course, so it was only after using Legilimency on Kreacher that Dumbledore knew where everyone had gone. That's why there was a delay in Dumbledore's arrival. If the deluminator worked the way it's proposed, he would have just used it, it would have saved valuable time.

Not really - Snape waited so long to tell them anything, it is a miracle that they weren't all killed before the Order arrived. However, it is primarily Dumbledore's arrival that I am looking at there. Again, we see that he goes right where he needs to be instead of going to the location he would have been told about - the Hall of Prophecies. The veil room was one of the wrong paths they took while looking for the Hall of Prophecies - and they ended up back in that room while trying to get away.

Dumbledore used Legillimency on Kreacher to get the full story - Kreacher had already told him where Sirius had gone as soon as he walked in - "laughing fit to burst". So I'd say that it is still likely that Dumbledore used the deluminator to pinpoint the exact location - and possibly to keep tabs on the situation while he interrogated Kreacher.

It is an intriguing thought, but I don't think Dumbledore used the deluminator that way himself, I think he had other ways of keeping tabs -- what if no one said his name? He might never get there. I think Dumbledore altered the deluminator specifically to help Ron find his way back, if he needed to.

I don't believe the deluminator was altered. It seems more likely that it always worked that way and there are instances where it appears that Dumbledore used it that way himself - not just with Harry, Dumbledore always seemed to be turning up at just the right time.

There's more involved there than just the name being said - if that were all that was involved, then Ron would have had voices coming out of his pocket frequently during the quest. It seems more tied to what the owner - or user - wanted. Ron desperately wanted to find Harry and Hermione, but knew he would need their help to do so because of the protective enchantments they had been using to hide themselves. The deluminator provided a connection to his friends when they said his name.

Dumbledore - unlike Ron - knew exactly how to use this device to its full potential. It was something that he invented and he had been using it for at least 15-16 years - the first time we see it is when he used it the night he left Harry with the Dursleys. As with everything else, Dumbledore did not leave any instructions on how they could use the deluminator - Ron stumbled upon this use by accident.

And he was able to keep using it to find Harry and Hermione's location even though they only said his name the one time. From what we are shown, these are two separate uses. The deluminator could be used to keep tabs on a situation - had Ron known more about how to work it, he probably could have heard more and listened to them at other times. The blue light/portkey-like feature appears to be a separate use - had Ron known how to work the deluminator, he probably could have used it to find Harry and Hermione after he had escaped from the snatchers.

:agree: And it makes sense to call the deluminator 'put-outer' the first time we readers meet it onpage, because it does look like one and so we can imagine it best. And it's not unusual for things to have several denominations.

That's true - the name change isn't that big of a deal really. This was something Dumbledore invented - who knows how many names he came up with for it before deciding upon deluminator. Put-outer made sense because that was the primary function - but deluminator sounded a lot cooler. ;)

I do think the deluminator worked in two-ways. One: the name had to be spoken and two: the person wearing the deluminator really, really had to want to be where the person who spoke the name was. That might be why Ron never heard his parents' voices who - I'm sure - have said his name more often than not, worrying about him. And while Ron certainly would have loved to be home with his family, he knew his place was somewhere else, with his friends. So that was where he wanted to be. I think it is also poignant that it was Hermione who said his name first, so maybe the romantic feelings between the two were, if not the requirement for the deluminator to work, but at least a supporting factor (yes, I am a sap :lol:)

I agree - though I think it would have worked the same with Harry as well. I don't think it was the romantic bond - just the strong bond he had with each of them. He wanted to get back to Hermione of course, but he also wanted to get back to Harry and keep his promise to help him. Both are significant, IMO.

And I still think that was two separate functions for the deluminator. Had Ron had instructions on how to use it, he probably could have used it to find Harry and Hermione at any point.

HedwigOwl

June 2nd, 2008, 6:13 am

Actually, it was almost immediately - I read through that scene before I posted to be sure. It is a very short conversation - time enough for Dumbledore to walk down from where Sirius was being held to the hospital wing. You can't apparate at Hogwarts and there was no need to use that function of the deluminator there because Harry was so close by. Dumbledore showed up very quickly there. I always felt that was such a big coincidence - another one of those moments where Dumbledore just showed up at the just the right time to help Harry. The deluminator explains how Dumbledore could know Harry was awake and needed to talk to him.
I also read the passage before I posted. I don't see a coincidence at all that Dumbledore showed up in the hospital wing after speaking with Sirius. After speaking with Sirius, and knowing that someone had freed Buckbeak, and driven away all the dementors, he knew that time travel was involved -- which is why he insisted on speaking with Harry & Hermione first. He got there quickly because he knew he had to set the time travel in motion.

And they go straight to Moody's office where Dumbledore fires a stunning spell through the door - again, just in the nick of time - another big coincidence. Why was Dumbledore so sure that Moody and Harry were in there even though the door was shut? Most likely because he used the deluminator to pinpoint Harry's location because he knew time was off the essence.
Well, they had to blast through the door because it was bolted, that didn't surprise me. And Dumbledore knew where to go because he followed Moody immediately, here's the quote from GoF (bolding is mine):

"This is not Alastor Moody," said Dumbledore quietly. "You have never known Alastor Moody. The real Moody would not have removed you from my sight after what happened tonight. The moment he took you I knew -- and I followed."

meesha1971

June 2nd, 2008, 11:57 am

I also read the passage before I posted. I don't see a coincidence at all that Dumbledore showed up in the hospital wing after speaking with Sirius. After speaking with Sirius, and knowing that someone had freed Buckbeak, and driven away all the dementors, he knew that time travel was involved -- which is why he insisted on speaking with Harry & Hermione first. He got there quickly because he knew he had to set the time travel in motion.

It was a coincidence that he got there within a few minutes of Harry waking up - the timing was impeccable. Had he arrived a few minutes earlier, they would still have been unconscious. A bit later and it would have been too late. It's a margin of minutes either way - Dumbledore arrived at just the right time.

Well, they had to blast through the door because it was bolted, that didn't surprise me. And Dumbledore knew where to go because he followed Moody immediately, here's the quote from GoF (bolding is mine):

"This is not Alastor Moody," said Dumbledore quietly. "You have never known Alastor Moody. The real Moody would not have removed you from my sight after what happened tonight. The moment he took you I knew -- and I followed."

That told him that it was not Moody. It did not tell him where they went. Dumbledore did not follow them immediately - Crouch Jr. had plenty of time to get Harry to the office, bolt the door, and tell Harry everything he had done - before Harry even saw vague shadows in the foe glass.

Somehow Dumbledore knew exactly where Harry had been taken even though he did not see it or follow immediately.

My primary point though is that it appears those were two separate functions with the deluminator. Ron heard Hermione's voice the first time - which served to draw his attention to the deluminator and he clicked it a few times to try and figure out what had happened there. That led him to discovering the other function - the blue light/portkey. He continues to use that without hearing any voices - it's a separate function. He never figured out how the whole thing with hearing her voice worked - and it only happened that one time. Had Ron known the deluminator could be used that way, he could have gotten back to them at any time.

MrSleepyHead

June 2nd, 2008, 2:29 pm

I don't think that was it, because Ron tells them that he wanted to return right away, so his regret was pretty much immediate, but the deluminator did nothing.
Until Hermione said "Ron." That was the trigger.
That's true - the name change isn't that big of a deal really. This was something Dumbledore invented - who knows how many names he came up with for it before deciding upon deluminator. Put-outer made sense because that was the primary function - but deluminator sounded a lot cooler.
It is also called the Put-Outer in OotP, by which time (according to your theory) Dumbledore had already used its "Deluminator function":
"Borrowed it from Dumbledore," growled Moody, pocketing the Put-Outer.
think to all the battle scenes, Dumbledore allways turns up right after theyve been talking about him,after someones said his name.
This is not true. Dumbledore appears in the Department of Mysteries without any mention of his name (Neville says DUBBLEDORE! when he sees him framed in the doorway) - he came right after interrogating Kreacher. He also goes to the Astronomy Tower when he sees the Dark Mark (once they return) - he had no prior knowledge of Hogwarts' danger.
Chamber of secrets,when riddle is goading harry,Harrys says that Dumbledore was more powerfull than Voldy, then taadaa Fawkes appears, Dumbledore later says 'you must have shown real loyalty to be down in the chamber' well mabey he was the one who sent fawkes because harry said his name,and he knew something was up via the deluminator.
Riddle seems to think Dumbledore sent the "songbird and an old hat," but Dumbledore says that "nothing but [real loyalty] could have called Fawkes to" Harry, which implies that Dumbledore did not send Fawkes. He may have left Fawkes at Hogwarts with orders to help Harry if he asked for it, but Fawkes, not Dumbledore, was the one who knew Harry was in trouble.
It is an intriguing thought, but I don't think Dumbledore used the deluminator that way himself, I think he had other ways of keeping tabs -- what if no one said his name? He might never get there. I think Dumbledore altered the deluminator specifically to help Ron find his way back, if he needed to.
I agree. Dumbledore relied on his own intelligence, assumptions, and informers to come to the aid of others (or Harry).
That told him that it was not Moody. It did not tell him where they went. Dumbledore did not follow them immediately...
This statement violates Dumbledore's. Dumbledore says that "The moment he took you I knew -- and I followed," which means that he did follow them immediately. He did not barge in on Barty Crouch Jr. until he was about to kill Harry because of the information Crouch was divulging.

Considering Dumbledore altered the Snitch to help Harry, the Tales of Beedle the Bard to help Hermione, following the trend, the Deluminator should have been altered to help Ron.

KBPadfoot

June 2nd, 2008, 4:49 pm

very nicely done meesha1971.
Lol
you should Lecture on the uses and inner workings of Deluminators

*Tips Hat*

meesha1971

June 3rd, 2008, 4:09 am

Until Hermione said "Ron." That was the trigger.

Actually, we don't know if that was the trigger or not. Hermione was hardly the first person to say Ron's name during all that time. His family would have mentioned him as well, but he never heard any of them through the deluminator.

It's important to remember that Ron did not have any clear instructions on how the deluminator worked. He stumbled upon these two functions of it by accident and he wasn't really sure how either happened.

It is also called the Put-Outer in OotP, by which time (according to your theory) Dumbledore had already used its "Deluminator function":
"Borrowed it from Dumbledore," growled Moody, pocketing the Put-Outer.

Actually, I think deluminator would mean the same thing as Put-Outer. To put out lights - to deluminate. It's a made up word, but it calls to mind "illuminate" - which means to give light - "deluminate" would meant to take light away. That's the same function. Deluminator is just a cooler name for that function. ;)

These other two functions are separate from that.

This is not true. Dumbledore appears in the Department of Mysteries without any mention of his name (Neville says DUBBLEDORE! when he sees him framed in the doorway) - he came right after interrogating Kreacher. He also goes to the Astronomy Tower when he sees the Dark Mark (once they return) - he had no prior knowledge of Hogwarts' danger.

Lucius says Dumbledore several times before the Order showed up in OOTP - in Harry's presence.

In HBP, Harry was with Dumbledore that entire time so we know that he did not use the deluminator at all during that. The other scenes we don't know if he did or not. Knowing the deluminator had that function makes it likely that he did for at least some of those instances - if not all.

This statement violates Dumbledore's. Dumbledore says that "The moment he took you I knew -- and I followed," which means that he did follow them immediately. He did not barge in on Barty Crouch Jr. until he was about to kill Harry because of the information Crouch was divulging.

We see on page that Dumbledore did not follow immediately. He was pulled away to talk to Cedric's parents and he told Harry to wait. Crouch Jr. took Harry at that moment - while Dumbledore was distracted. When Dumbledore got back and saw that Harry was gone, he knew something was up because Moody would not have done that. He did not follow immediately and he was not standing outside the door the entire time. Harry saw them walking towards the room in the foe glass - the images becoming clearer as they got closer to the room.

The point still stands. Dumbledore knew that Moody had taken Harry somewhere and that alerted him to something being wrong, but he did not have any way of knowing exactly where Moody had taken Harry. Yet he goes to exactly the right place at exactly the right time. It is very likely that, once he realized Moody had taken Harry, he used the deluminator to see what was going on.

Considering Dumbledore altered the Snitch to help Harry, the Tales of Beedle the Bard to help Hermione, following the trend, the Deluminator should have been altered to help Ron.

Dumbledore did not alter the snitch - not in how it functioned. All snitches worked that way - they contained flesh memories and would open for the first person who had touched them. Hermione stated that quite clearly on page. Dumbledore added a charm to control when the snitch would open, but that did not change the function - it would still open and only Harry could open it because he was the one who touched it first.

There is no evidence that the deluminator was altered in any way. It is most likely that it always had additional functions and there is evidence to suggest that Dumbledore used those other functions at various times throughout the series.

very nicely done meesha1971.
Lol
you should Lecture on the uses and inner workings of Deluminators

*Tips Hat*

Thanks! You deserve the credit for spotting this in the first place though.

*Tips Hat* ;)

HedwigOwl

June 3rd, 2008, 4:45 am

We see on page that Dumbledore did not follow immediately.
Sorry, but we know that Dumbledore follows immediately, because he says he did. JKR is telling us what happened, it's pretty straightforward.

"This is not Alastor Moody," said Dumbledore quietly. "You have never known Alastor Moody. The real Moody would not have removed you from my sight after what happened tonight. The moment he took you I knew -- and I followed."

Lucius says Dumbledore several times before the Order showed up in OOTP - in Harry's presence.
I don't understand why Lucius saying Dumbledore's name is relevant to the deluminator theory. Voldemort says Dumbledore's name a few times in GoF while Harry is in deep trouble at the graveyard, but Dumbledore doesn't arrive, so I don't think Lucius had anything to do with a possible deluminator trigger.

Dumbledore did not alter the snitch - not in how it functioned. All snitches worked that way - they contained flesh memories and would open for the first person who had touched them. Hermione stated that quite clearly on page. Dumbledore added a charm to control when the snitch would open, but that did not change the function - it would still open and only Harry could open it because he was the one who touched it first.
I think Dumbledore did alter the snitch. Where does it say that the snitch would open to the first person who touched it? Hermione does not say that it would open, she says snitches have flesh memories. Scrimgeour says that is so in the event there is a dispute about who caught the snitch, it would recognize the first person who touched it. It does not say how, perhaps it flutters it wings, we aren't told. It is Scrimgeour who suggests that Dumbledore used magic to hide something in the snitch, because that is what he believes (and was right). But that does not mean that opening is a normal function for a snitch, we never see that happen except at the end of DH. So I think MrSleepHead is right, the snitch was altered, in addition to the enchantment.

Urania

June 3rd, 2008, 8:01 am

I think it's a brilliant theory - it explains a lot - thank you :)

I believe that Dumbledore did use the deluminator to look in on Harry during the books - but specificly in OotP he did not need it... Kreacher had just told him that he had told Harry that Sirius was in Department of mysteries, and it's not that unlikely that Snape allerted him with a patronus that Harry and the others had gone - just like he allerted the other ordermenbers...
Dumbledore knew exactly where to go - he didn't need the deluminator, he could use Fawkes to get there quickly after talking to kreacher...

KBPadfoot

June 3rd, 2008, 1:14 pm

Even if Dumbledore did alter the Snitch and the Book, why does that mean he altered the Deluminator?I dont think it logically follows suit that he did at all.

He created the Deluminator so he wouldnt have to alter it to make it do what he wanted, It was allready created to do what he wanted.

The Snitch and the Book ,had to be altered.Because they were like independant objects.

Oh and yeah DeLuminator = De- Luminate = Un light , thats pretty obvious

the first time were introduced to it is when Dumbledore first drops of Harry at the Dursleys when hes a baby and its described as an 'out-puter' , it was probably named the deluminator all along, It doesnt make sense that the name was changed,even if the workings of the deluminator changed (which they didnt lol)

meesha1971

June 3rd, 2008, 3:27 pm

Sorry, but we know that Dumbledore follows immediately, because he says he did. JKR is telling us what happened, it's pretty straightforward.

"This is not Alastor Moody," said Dumbledore quietly. "You have never known Alastor Moody. The real Moody would not have removed you from my sight after what happened tonight. The moment he took you I knew -- and I followed."

We also know that Dumbledore could not have realized that right away because we're there when it happens.

“Dumbledore, Amos Diggorys running … he’s coming over … . Don’t you think you should tell him - before he sees - ?”

“Harry, stay here -”

Girls were screaming, sobbing hysterically …. The scene flickered oddly before Harry’s eyes … .

“Its all right, son, I’ve got you … come on … hospital wing …”

“Dumbledore said stay,” said Harry thickly, the pounding in his scar making him feel as though he was about to throw up; his vision was blurring worse than ever.

“You need to lie down …. Come on now ….”

Dumbledore was going to talk to Amos Diggory when Harry was taken so he didn't realize what had happened immediately. When he was done with that and saw that Harry was gone, he realized that Moody was an imposter. But he did not realize this immediately or follow immediately. The moment he realized Moody had taken Harry, he knew Moody was an imposter - but that did not happen immediately because he was going to talk to Amos Diggory at the time.

I don't understand why Lucius saying Dumbledore's name is relevant to the deluminator theory. Voldemort says Dumbledore's name a few times in GoF while Harry is in deep trouble at the graveyard, but Dumbledore doesn't arrive, so I don't think Lucius had anything to do with a possible deluminator trigger.

We've already established that someone saying the name alone is not the trigger. If that were the case, then Ron would have been hearing voices coming from his pocket from the time they left the Burrow. There's more involved than that.

It is significant that we remember that Ron did not have clear instructions on how to use the deluminator. It is most likely that this function was something that could be controlled and activated on command. Ron didn't know how to do that, but Dumbledore - the person who invented this device - would have known.

I think Dumbledore did alter the snitch. Where does it say that the snitch would open to the first person who touched it? Hermione does not say that it would open, she says snitches have flesh memories. Scrimgeour says that is so in the event there is a dispute about who caught the snitch, it would recognize the first person who touched it. It does not say how, perhaps it flutters it wings, we aren't told. It is Scrimgeour who suggests that Dumbledore used magic to hide something in the snitch, because that is what he believes (and was right). But that does not mean that opening is a normal function for a snitch, we never see that happen except at the end of DH. So I think MrSleepHead is right, the snitch was altered, in addition to the enchantment.

It's stated clearly on page.

“I don’t think there’s anything hidden in the icing,” said Scrimgeour, “but a Snitch would be a very good hiding place for a small object. You know why, I’m sure?”

Harry shrugged. Hermione, however, answered: Harry though that answering questions correctly was such a deeply ingrained habit she could not suppress the urge.

“Because Snitches have flesh memories,” she said.

“What?” said Harry and Ron together; both considered Hermione’s Quidditch knowledge negligible.

“Correct,” said Scrimgeour. “A Snitch is not touched by bare skin before it is released, not even by the maker, who wears gloves. It carries an enchantment by which it can identify the first human to lay hands upon it, in the case of disputed capture. This Snitch” — he held up the tiny golden ball — “will remember your touch, Potter. It occurs to me that Dumbledore, who had prodigious magical skill, whatever his other faults, might have enchanted this Snitch so that it will open only for you."

This was a standard feature of a snitch - that's how Scrimgeour knew it could be used to hide something. The only change that Dumbledore made was to ensure that it would not open until the right time - when Harry was about to die. He did not alter the basic function.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Dumbledore did anything to alter either the snitch or the deluminator in regards to their basic functions.

Even if Dumbledore did alter the Snitch and the Book, why does that mean he altered the Deluminator?I dont think it logically follows suit that he did at all.

He created the Deluminator so he wouldnt have to alter it to make it do what he wanted, It was allready created to do what he wanted.

The Snitch and the Book ,had to be altered.Because they were like independant objects.

Oh and yeah DeLuminator = De- Luminate = Un light , thats pretty obvious

the first time were introduced to it is when Dumbledore first drops of Harry at the Dursleys when hes a baby and its described as an 'out-puter' , it was probably named the deluminator all along, It doesnt make sense that the name was changed,even if the workings of the deluminator changed (which they didnt lol)

I agree. Though I think it's possible that Dumbledore could have decided to call it different things over the years - this was an object he invented so it was up to him to decide what to call it. The two names given on page both reflect the primary function - to remove light.

Regardless, there is nothing on page to support or suggest that Dumbledore altered the function of this device. He invented it - it did what he wanted it to do. It was stated on page that there were already methods to remove light/create darkness so it is very unlikely that Dumbledore invented something just for that purpose alone. We have several examples throughout the series that suggest that Dumbledore was using this device to keep an eye on things and know where he needed to be. It is most likely that it was these functions of the deluminator that Dumbledore felt would be useful to Ron.

Again, we have to keep in mind the fact that Ron never received clear instructions on how to use this device. Dumbledore - having invented it - would know exactly how to use it and use each function intentionally. Ron stumbled across these additional functions by accident.

Something else that just occurred to me - it's been brought up a lot of times how Dumbledore knew that Harry wasn't receiving his letters. If he was using the deluminator to monitor Harry at Privet Dr., then he would have heard the conversations about the letters.

And we also have Dumbledore knowing that Harry found the Mirror of Erised even though he wasn't around that first night. He showed up the second night and watched Harry and Ron look into it under a disillusionment charm, but it seems likely that he was using the deluminator the previous night to monitor Harry and see how he would use the cloak.

The deluminator is a mark of Dumbledore's brilliance. A device that can be used to remove/store light, eavesdrop on conversations, and function like a portkey - it truly is brilliant and it explains a lot of Dumbledore's actions throughout the series.

MrSleepyHead

June 3rd, 2008, 4:22 pm

Actually, we don't know if that was the trigger or not. Hermione was hardly the first person to say Ron's name during all that time. His family would have mentioned him as well, but he never heard any of them through the deluminator.
Thus, it was Hermione saying Ron that was the trigger - not simply anyone saying "Ron."
Actually, I think deluminator would mean the same thing as Put-Outer. To put out lights - to deluminate. It's a made up word, but it calls to mind "illuminate" - which means to give light - "deluminate" would meant to take light away. That's the same function. Deluminator is just a cooler name for that function.
I agree, but "Deluminator" has much more capability of a double meaning than "Put-Outer." To illuminate not only means to give light, it can also mean to make something clear ("to throw light on..."). Thus, the "luminate" part of "Deluminator" also means to make something clear or to enlighten (which Ron certainly was when he discovered the second function of the Deluminator). The name change, to me (since Dumbledore wrote "I leave my Deluminator" - not "Put-Outer"), makes it clear that Dumbledore altered the Put-Outer (and made a Deluminator).
Lucius says Dumbledore several times before the Order showed up in OOTP - in Harry's presence.
As HedwigOwl says, Voldemort said "Dumbledore" numerous times in the graveyard, yet Dumbledore was still ignorant of Harry's situation.
Even if Dumbledore did alter the Snitch and the Book, why does that mean he altered the Deluminator?I dont think it logically follows suit that he did at all.
It certainly does. It is logical (to me, though logic can vary) that if Dumbledore changed the first two items, he would also change the third.
Dumbledore was going to talk to Amos Diggory when Harry was taken so he didn't realize what had happened immediately.
There is no canon for this. The passage you supplied merely tells us that Dumbledore said "Harry, stay here." While he could have been walking to Amos, who is to say that he did not see Moody take Harry? I think Dumbledore's word outweighs a non-canon presumption.
We've already established that someone saying the name alone is not the trigger.
This statement violates your previous assertion that Lucius saying Dumbledore's name in the Department of Mysteries was the trigger.
This Snitch” — he held up the tiny golden ball — “will remember your touch, Potter. It occurs to me that Dumbledore....might have enchanted this Snitch so that it will open only for you."
This was a standard feature of a snitch - that's how Scrimgeour knew it could be used to hide something.
You misunderstand Scrimgeour's statement. The standard feature of the Snitch is that it has a flesh memory - not that it opens. Scrimgeour himself believes Dumbledore enchanted the Snitch "so that it will open only for" Harry. He says the Snitch is the perfect object to do this with because it does have a flesh memory.

The only occasion I could find possible evidence that Dumbledore used the Deluminator to find Harry is in SS/PS, but I still believe Dumbledore came just in time because of his assumption and knowledge of Harry.

HedwigOwl

June 4th, 2008, 6:02 am

You misunderstand Scrimgeour's statement. The standard feature of the Snitch is that it has a flesh memory - not that it opens. Scrimgeour himself believes Dumbledore enchanted the Snitch "so that it will open only for" Harry. He says the Snitch is the perfect object to do this with because it does have a flesh memory.

The only occasion I could find possible evidence that Dumbledore used the Deluminator to find Harry is in SS/PS, but I still believe Dumbledore came just in time because of his assumption and knowledge of Harry.

I agree. No one says that it's normal for a snitch to open. Ron, who knows everything about Quidditch doesn't know, and Harry has read the "Quidditch Through the Ages" book numerous times, and he doesn't know what to expect when he takes the snitch in his hand. Neither does Hermione, who later says she "expected something to happen" -- nothing about a snitch opening as a normal function. Which all points to the snitch being altered.

meesha1971

June 4th, 2008, 2:43 pm

Thus, it was Hermione saying Ron that was the trigger - not simply anyone saying "Ron."

That is unlikely. Hermione said Ron's name many times after he received the deluminator and he never heard her voice coming out of it.

There is more involved to activating that function of the deluminator. The owner's wishes are a factor as well. Ron desperately wanted to get back to Harry and Hermione. And there is still more involved there that we don't know because that also applies to Ron's family - before he left, he desperately wanted to know that his family was okay. So he should have been hearing voices coming out of his pocket whenever someone in his family said his name as well - but he didn't.

We simply do not have enough facts to determine what actually triggered that function of the deluminator.

I agree, but "Deluminator" has much more capability of a double meaning than "Put-Outer." To illuminate not only means to give light, it can also mean to make something clear ("to throw light on..."). Thus, the "luminate" part of "Deluminator" also means to make something clear or to enlighten (which Ron certainly was when he discovered the second function of the Deluminator). The name change, to me (since Dumbledore wrote "I leave my Deluminator" - not "Put-Outer"), makes it clear that Dumbledore altered the Put-Outer (and made a Deluminator).

I disagree. There is no textual evidence to support the idea that Dumbledore altered that device in any way. The textual evidence indicates that the deluminator always had those other functions and there is evidence that Dumbledore used those function himself over the years.

The name change doesn't indicate any alteration of the device. Both names reflect the primary function of the device - to put out light. However, the deluminator has other functions apart from that. It can also store light to be used later - with or without lamps - as we see in Malfoy Manor. It can be used like a "bug" - as we see when Ron hears Harry and Hermione talking. It can be used similar to a portkey to help you get to the right location - as we see with Ron finding Harry and Hermione again. It probably has other functions that they may never discover because Dumbledore didn't leave any instructions for it.

That's the important factor here that we have to remember - Ron did not receive any instructions on how to activate the various functions of the deluminator. He stumbled across those additional functions by accident - a lucky break for Ron indeed, but it would have been better all the way around if Dumbledore had simply left him instructions on how to use it to begin with. This was Dumbledore's invention and he was the only person who fully understood how to activate all of the various functions.

As HedwigOwl says, Voldemort said "Dumbledore" numerous times in the graveyard, yet Dumbledore was still ignorant of Harry's situation.

Which only tells us that Dumbledore did not activate that function of the deluminator at that time. He had no reason to. As far as he knew, at that moment, Harry was within the maze and Moody - whom he still believed was the real Moody - was keeping an eye on him with his magical eye. There was nothing to alert him to any possible danger until Harry appeared at the edge of the maze with Cedric's body.

It certainly does. It is logical (to me, though logic can vary) that if Dumbledore changed the first two items, he would also change the third.

There is no evidence that Dumbledore changed the function of any items. Putting a charm on the snitch to control when it would open did not change the basic function of it.

There is no canon for this. The passage you supplied merely tells us that Dumbledore said "Harry, stay here." While he could have been walking to Amos, who is to say that he did not see Moody take Harry? I think Dumbledore's word outweighs a non-canon presumption.

Dumbledore walked away to talk to Amos Diggor and did not see Moody take Harry away. If he had, then Crouch Jr. never would have even made it back to the castle - let alone all the way to his office to tell Harry everything he had done. Dumbledore would have intercepted them in that event.

The minute Dumbledore realized that "Moody" had taken Harry, he followed. In other words - as soon as he saw that Harry was gone. That did not happen immediately - Crouch Jr. had plenty of time to slowly walk Harry back to the castle, up to his office, and tell him everything he had done before Dumbledore found them. Dumbledore was several minutes behind in following.

This statement violates your previous assertion that Lucius saying Dumbledore's name in the Department of Mysteries was the trigger.

Yes, it does. After further review, I have come to the conclusion that saying someone's name may or may not be involved - and even if it is, it is clear that there is a lot more involved than someone saying a name. It seems more likely that the activation of this function has more to do with the owner of the deluminator. We don't have enough facts to accurately determine how that function is activated.

We have to remember that Ron was never given instructions on how to use the deluminator. Dumbledore invented this devices and - as such - he knew how to activate all of it's various functions.

You misunderstand Scrimgeour's statement. The standard feature of the Snitch is that it has a flesh memory - not that it opens. Scrimgeour himself believes Dumbledore enchanted the Snitch "so that it will open only for" Harry. He says the Snitch is the perfect object to do this with because it does have a flesh memory.

Scrimgeour is quite clear on the matter. As he told them, a snitch makes a very good hiding place for a small object. The only way for him to know that is if all snitches open. That also applies to him assuming that Dumbledore would ensure that it would only open for Harry. That tells us that - under normal circumstances - there was a way to bypass the "flesh memory" so that a snitch could be opened by other people. And Dumbledore had to bypass the flesh memory to open it to hide the ring for Harry. The fact that the snitch could open had to be a standard function of a snitch in order for Scrimgeour to reach that conclusion. If that was not a standard function, then there would have been no reason for him to even consider that possibility.

Dumbledore did not alter the basic function of the snitch - he merely added a charm to ensure that the snitch would not open for Harry until a certain time. There is no textual evidence to support that he did anything more than that.

The only occasion I could find possible evidence that Dumbledore used the Deluminator to find Harry is in SS/PS, but I still believe Dumbledore came just in time because of his assumption and knowledge of Harry.

Dumbledore's statement goes against that however. The minute he arrived at the Ministry, he knew that he needed to be at Hogwarts instead. How? From what he says, he had not seen anyone at the Ministry yet so there was no alert that it was a false summons. There was nothing to cause alarm before he left Hogwarts - he wouldn't have left if there was. So how did Dumbledore know that something was wrong and he needed to be at Hogwarts? This is a question that has been gone over numerous times with no satisfactory answer - until now. The additional functions of the deluminator give Dumbledore the means to check up on Harry - or anyone else he chooses - and know when/where he is needed.

Personally, I see this as further evidence of Dumbledore's brilliance - the deluminator truly is a remarkable device. The only thing I would fault Dumbledore for is not giving Ron complete instructions on how to use it.

Mugglewizard

June 4th, 2008, 3:07 pm

Dumbledore's statement goes against that however. The minute he arrived at the Ministry, he knew that he needed to be at Hogwarts instead. How? From what he says, he had not seen anyone at the Ministry yet so there was no alert that it was a false summons. There was nothing to cause alarm before he left Hogwarts - he wouldn't have left if there was. So how did Dumbledore know that something was wrong and he needed to be at Hogwarts? This is a question that has been gone over numerous times with no satisfactory answer - until now. The additional functions of the deluminator give Dumbledore the means to check up on Harry - or anyone else he chooses - and know when/where he is needed.

Personally, I see this as further evidence of Dumbledore's brilliance - the deluminator truly is a remarkable device. The only thing I would fault Dumbledore for is not giving Ron complete instructions on how to use it.
I must admit, this sounds very reasonable and true. Oh I wish we could learn more about the deluminator

KBPadfoot

June 4th, 2008, 4:47 pm

Personally, I see this as further evidence of Dumbledore's brilliance - the deluminator truly is a remarkable device. The only thing I would fault Dumbledore for is not giving Ron complete instructions on how to use it.

I totally agree, except i wouldnt fault dumbledore for not telling Ron, I think he had to work it out by himself, Dumbledore is (was) fond of letting people find stuff out theirselves,making it really mean something when they get there.

I think he ment for Ron to work it out by himself, for whatever reason

HedwigOwl

June 5th, 2008, 4:49 am

Scrimgeour is quite clear on the matter. As he told them, a snitch makes a very good hiding place for a small object. The only way for him to know that is if all snitches open. That also applies to him assuming that Dumbledore would ensure that it would only open for Harry. That tells us that - under normal circumstances - there was a way to bypass the "flesh memory" so that a snitch could be opened by other people. And Dumbledore had to bypass the flesh memory to open it to hide the ring for Harry. The fact that the snitch could open had to be a standard function of a snitch in order for Scrimgeour to reach that conclusion. If that was not a standard function, then there would have been no reason for him to even consider that possibility.
Actually, there is a good reason for him to consider the possibility. Scrimgeour was highly suspicious of all the items Dumbledore left the trio, because he wanted to know what Dumbledore was up to (which is why he kept sending aurors to follow him when he was alive). This is not proof that the snitch normally opens. It's only proof that Scrimgeour believed that Dumbledore altered the snitch to hide something inside for Harry, and as such this particular snitch would only open for Harry, which is why he made Harry take it in his hand -- however, Harry didn't reveal the snitch would remember he caught it in his mouth, and neither of them knew that Dumbledore had added an enchantment as to exactly when Harry could open it. There is no evidence anywhere that it's normal for a snitch to open. The description in "Quidditch Through the Ages" is quite simple and straightforward, and there is no statement or implication that it opens at all. It is only Scrimgeour's suspicion that carries him to that conclusion.

meesha1971

June 5th, 2008, 5:32 am

I totally agree, except i wouldnt fault dumbledore for not telling Ron, I think he had to work it out by himself, Dumbledore is (was) fond of letting people find stuff out theirselves,making it really mean something when they get there.

I think he ment for Ron to work it out by himself, for whatever reason

There is a time for letting people figure things out on their own and there is a time for giving information. At this point, the time had come for full disclosure. They weren't students anymore and they didn't go on that quest as a classroom activity. They were on a very dangerous mission and they needed certain information in order to succeed. One of the things about DH that really disappointed me was how much information Dumbledore withheld from them - things they really needed to know. It was reckless of Dumbledore to rely so much on chance because there was a possibility that they wouldn't figure it out - luck can only take you so far. Though I suppose it would be more accurate to say I fault how that was written rather than the character - he was only doing what Jo made him do after all. ;)

From a literary standpoint, it was necessary to drag some things out, but I think Jo could have found a better way to do that rather than having Dumbledore withhold information they needed. The "bugging" function of the deluminator could have been really useful for them if Ron had known how to activate it. They could have used it to check on their friends and family to make sure everyone was okay and pick up bits of news, etc... The "portkey" function was useful to help Ron get back, but it would have been more useful if Ron had known how to activate that all along - he would have been able to return sooner and they would have had reassurance that they would be able to find each other if they were separated for any reason.

Actually, there is a good reason for him to consider the possibility. Scrimgeour was highly suspicious of all the items Dumbledore left the trio, because he wanted to know what Dumbledore was up to (which is why he kept sending aurors to follow him when he was alive). This is not proof that the snitch normally opens. It's only proof that Scrimgeour believed that Dumbledore altered the snitch to hide something inside for Harry, and as such this particular snitch would only open for Harry, which is why he made Harry take it in his hand -- however, Harry didn't reveal the snitch would remember he caught it in his mouth, and neither of them knew that Dumbledore had added an enchantment as to exactly when Harry could open it. There is no evidence anywhere that it's normal for a snitch to open. The description in "Quidditch Through the Ages" is quite simple and straightforward, and there is no statement or implication that it opens at all. It is only Scrimgeour's suspicion that carries him to that conclusion.

Quidditch Through the Ages doesn't make any mention of a snitch having flesh memories either. Yet is is revealed in DH that this is a standard feature of all snitches that is used to resolve any disputed capture. If there was no way to open a snitch, then there would be no reason to suspect that something would be hidden in one or think that it would make a good hiding place for a small object. Scrimgeour already knew that a snitch could open because all snitches do that - that's why he was suspicious of Dumbledore leaving Harry a snitch in the first place. Hermione knew that as well - and Scrimgeour was aware of that when he asked her to explain why a snitch would make a good hiding place. If that was not a standard feature, then he could not reasonably expect Hermione to know that and we see that he did indeed expect her to know that. He was discussing the standard features - flesh memories and the fact that they could open. The only change Dumbledore made was to ensure that the snitch would not open until the right time - and that did not alter the basic function of the snitch. All snitches have flesh memories and they all open.

There is no textual evidence to support the idea that Dumbledore altered the function of any devices used in the books. He worked with the functions that they already had. He had to - particularly with the snitch. He had to be sure that Harry would be able to figure that out so he could use the ring at the right time. While it was likely that the Ministry would confiscate those items and examine them, it was also possible that they wouldn't - and there was no guarantee that Scrimgeour would tell Harry about snitches. Dumbledore was depending on either Harry to already know about snitches because he loved Quidditch or Hermione to know about them because she loved to learn new things. And we do see in that scene, that Hermione already knew that those were the standard features of a snitch. If Scrimgeour hadn't said anything, Hermione still could have figured it out on her own because she knew that snitches contain flesh memories and could open. That's what Dumbledore was counting on. He worked with the standard features to make sure that Harry would be able to get the ring at the right time, but not be able to give in to temptation to use it for anything else.

The_Green_Woods

June 6th, 2008, 7:47 pm

I would have liked to have seen him return in another way, let's say a more tedious way. It did not seem very believable, having nearly a shadow of a deus ex machina. It was way too easy for him. What do you think?

It was pretty convenient IMO. Dumbledore seems to know that Ron would leave the other two and would need help to return. That makes Dumbledore almost omnicient and all knowing, which I think he was not; not in this way IMO, but then this is Dumbledore and maybe he knew a few things. But the deluminator does not seem to have any other use and so, JKR may have used it as an easy way for Ron to return.

MrSleepyHead

June 7th, 2008, 3:33 am

The "bugging" function of the deluminator could have been really useful for them if Ron had known how to activate it.
This is the main part that we disagree on. I do not believe Ron could activate it simply to check up on anyone he wanted. I believe Dumbledore enchanted the Put-Outer so that it would lead Ron back to Harry and Hermione if he ever left them. That, in my interpretation, is as far as the Deluminator's "tracking device" went. It is also why only Hermione saying "Ron" when Ron was brooding on finding Hermione and Harry led Ron to them and why Mrs. Weasley saying "Ron" did not.
If there was no way to open a snitch, then there would be no reason to suspect that something would be hidden in one or think that it would make a good hiding place for a small object.
There certainly would be a reason to suspect that a wizard could enchant the Snitch to open and use its flesh memory as a password unique to one individual. This is why Scrimgeour thought Dumbledore enchanted the Snitch to open: Dumbledore could use the Snitch's memory as a password. However, considering Scrimgeour confirms Dumbledore would have to enchant the Snitch to make it open ("It occurs to me that Dumbledore....might have enchanted this Snitch so that it will open."), I think we can agree that Dumbledore altered the Snitch and the book (Hermione assumes Dumbledore penned the symbol of the Deathly Hallows, and who else could it be?). It is my assumption, then, that the Deluminator (or Put-Outer) would have been altered as well.

I must ask one more thing in relation to the Deluminator being enchanted from the outset to keep tabs on Harry (as this was one explanation of why Dumbledore created it). Why would Dumbledore need it that night in Privet Drive, when Hagrid was delivering the one-year-old Harry? We know Dumbledore did not use the Deluminator to find out about Lily and James' deaths ("Obviously Dumbledore could cast a charm on a dwelling that would immediately alert him if something happened to it. So he can know instantaneously." - JKR, Pottercast interview (http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2007/1217-pottercast-anelli.html)), so the Deluminator could not have been specifically enchanted for Dumbledore to check up on Harry.

HedwigOwl

June 7th, 2008, 5:55 am

There certainly would be a reason to suspect that a wizard could enchant the Snitch to open and use its flesh memory as a password unique to one individual. This is why Scrimgeour thought Dumbledore enchanted the Snitch to open: Dumbledore could use the Snitch's memory as a password. However, considering Scrimgeour confirms Dumbledore would have to enchant the Snitch to make it open ("It occurs to me that Dumbledore....might have enchanted this Snitch so that it will open."), I think we can agree that Dumbledore altered the Snitch and the book (Hermione assumes Dumbledore penned the symbol of the Deathly Hallows, and who else could it be?). It is my assumption, then, that the Deluminator (or Put-Outer) would have been altered as well.
Thanks, MrSleepyHead, I feel the same way. Also, when Harry & Scrimgeour are arguing, at one point Harry says: "So this is what you've been doing, Minisiter, shut up in your office, trying to break open a Snitch?" This tells us that it isn't normal for a Snitch to open; Harry was a Seeker, if Snitches opened as a rule he would have known....Hermione didn't know (she said she expected "something to happen" when Harry took the Snitch in his hand)....and most importantly, Ron doesn't know, and he knew more about Quidditch than the others. It seems clear that Dumbledore altered the Deluminator, the Beedle Book, and the Snitch, giving each of the trio something they would need, and could figure out at the proper time.

If that was not a standard feature, then he could not reasonably expect Hermione to know that and we see that he did indeed expect her to know that. He was discussing the standard features - flesh memories and the fact that they could open. The only change Dumbledore made was to ensure that the snitch would not open until the right time - and that did not alter the basic function of the snitch. All snitches have flesh memories and they all open.
Actually, Scrimgeour does not expect Hermione to know if a Snitch opens -- he is the one suggesting the theory that Dumbledore enchanted it, hiding something in it for Harry, so that it would open for only him -- noting that Dumbledore had "prodigious magical skill". Further, at the end when Harry presses the Snitch to his lips and says "I am about to die" -- the description says "the metal shell broke open". It broke open, it did not open in a way that is normal or would go back together again. We are told in the book that Snitches have flesh memories -- but we are not told that they open, only that Scrimgeour suspects that Dumbledore enchanted it to do so.

KBPadfoot

June 8th, 2008, 12:41 pm

sirius_lee_G

June 8th, 2008, 5:21 pm

I didn't mind how he came back. The fact that he left was enough so I was just waiting for his return. And we should be thankful that he even returned. Because he has a lot of proud and he's very indignant... It was probably very hard! I'm glad it was made kind of easy for him anyways...

I didn't like Hermione's reaction though...

TheBurrowers

June 8th, 2008, 6:30 pm

I thought that this was a rather cool return and i was just glad to see him come back as their was like big whole in the story and did not feel right without ron their.

sticky

June 8th, 2008, 6:36 pm

I

I didn't like Hermione's reaction though...

I could understand Hermione's reaction, for me it was understandable however possible unnecessary maybe, but it did show how Hermione cared about Ron's choice of actions, and Ron cared about Hermione's attitude towards him, which we see little of eariler on in the series as Ron and Hermione fall out quite a bit, although they seem slightly bothered, they don't as much as in DH.
I think i could also understand Ron's choice to leave, although it was a wrong choice and it is slightly annoying :lol: But i think the whole Deluminator return was quite good, i was more thankful of the fact that he returned :rotfl:

meesha1971

June 8th, 2008, 8:02 pm

This is the main part that we disagree on. I do not believe Ron could activate it simply to check up on anyone he wanted. I believe Dumbledore enchanted the Put-Outer so that it would lead Ron back to Harry and Hermione if he ever left them. That, in my interpretation, is as far as the Deluminator's "tracking device" went. It is also why only Hermione saying "Ron" when Ron was brooding on finding Hermione and Harry led Ron to them and why Mrs. Weasley saying "Ron" did not.

Actually, I think that particular feature was completely separate from the "portkey" feature - for lack of a better term. It was the second, "portkey" feature that acted as a tracking device. The first feature is more like an electronic bug - had Ron known how to activate that feature, they could have used it to listen in on the Weasleys to make sure everyone was okay, pick up bits of news, etc...

I don't think Dumbledore was omniscent either - I don't believe he knew that Ron would leave. He did know there was a possibility that the three of them could get separated and he knew they would likely be facing stressful situations where any one of them could leave. He gave Ron the means to reunite them if either of those things happened.

Nor do I believe that was the first time Hermione said Ron's name during the time he was gone. It was the first time she said it to Harry, but I don't believe it was the first time she had said it. All those times she was off by herself while Harry was taking watch, etc... A young woman crying over the man she loves - she said his name at some point during that. "Why, Ron? Why?"

And, as has been pointed out, there are a lot of examples throughout the series that indicate that Dumbledore used this "electronic bug" feature of the deluminator himself. It does seem very likely that Dumbledore listened in on people's conversations from time to time - not personal or private matters of course, but he there are times when he knew things that he could only know if he had heard them talking. For example - he knew that Harry and Ron were going to go to the Mirror of Erised that night in PS/SS - it is most likely that he used the deluminator to listen in and realized that Harry had found the mirror and heard them planning to go that night. He didn't need to use the "portkey" feature - he knew where the mirror was so he could just go wait for them there.

There certainly would be a reason to suspect that a wizard could enchant the Snitch to open and use its flesh memory as a password unique to one individual. This is why Scrimgeour thought Dumbledore enchanted the Snitch to open: Dumbledore could use the Snitch's memory as a password. However, considering Scrimgeour confirms Dumbledore would have to enchant the Snitch to make it open ("It occurs to me that Dumbledore....might have enchanted this Snitch so that it will open."), I think we can agree that Dumbledore altered the Snitch and the book (Hermione assumes Dumbledore penned the symbol of the Deathly Hallows, and who else could it be?). It is my assumption, then, that the Deluminator (or Put-Outer) would have been altered as well.

That is not what Scrimgeour said.

It occurs to me that Dumbledore, who had prodigious magical skill, whatever his other faults, might have enchanted this Snitch so that it will open only for you.”

He's not saying Dumbledore enchanted the snitch to open. He's already established that all snitch's will open. He's saying that Dumbledore enchanted this snitch so that it will only open for Harry.

Scrimgeour makes it clear that all snitch's open when he asks Hermione to explain why a snitch would make a good hiding place for a small object. And Hermione understands exactly what he's asking so we know that she is aware that all snitch's open. If all snitch's did not open, then there would be no reason to think something could - or would - be hidden in one.

I must ask one more thing in relation to the Deluminator being enchanted from the outset to keep tabs on Harry (as this was one explanation of why Dumbledore created it). Why would Dumbledore need it that night in Privet Drive, when Hagrid was delivering the one-year-old Harry? We know Dumbledore did not use the Deluminator to find out about Lily and James' deaths ("Obviously Dumbledore could cast a charm on a dwelling that would immediately alert him if something happened to it. So he can know instantaneously." - JKR, Pottercast interview (http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2007/1217-pottercast-anelli.html)), so the Deluminator could not have been specifically enchanted for Dumbledore to check up on Harry.

Dumbledore used the deluminator when he left Harry at Privet Dr. for it's primary function - to put out the street lights so none of the neighbors would see them there. We are shown three separate functions for the deluminator.

To put out lights and return that light - it could also store light to be used without lamps.
To listen in on conversations.
To navigate/track - similar to a portkey.

All three of these functions are separate - and we see them used separately. This was a device that Dumbledore invented so he was the only person who knew how to activate all of those functions intentionally. Ron never received instructions on how to use the deluminator so he had to stumble across those additional functions by accident. It's significant to remember that Ron never received instructions on how to use it.

There is no textual evidence to support the conclusion that the deluminator was altered in any way. It is most likely that those functions were always there and there is evidence that Dumbledore used those functions himself throughout the series.

Yes But *flails to the ground in exasperation*

the snitch and the Book were NOT originally dumbledores so they HAD to be altered to do what he wanted them to!

The Deluminator did not! It was allready dumbledores, it did not need to be altered

Its not Logical!
(and i say this with the greatest like for everyone lol)

:argh:

*pat pat* It's okay. I agree with you. :)

The book wasn't really altered - he drew a symbol on one page of it, but that didn't alter the function of the book. The snitch wasn't really altered either - not towards it's basic function. Dumbledore enchanted it so that it would only open for Harry at a specific time, but the evidence suggests it would always open.

But you are right. Those are moot points because the deluminator is a separate device. It was invented by Dumbledore and he had it for years. There is evidence throughout the series that indicates he was using the deluminator - with all of it's separate functions - over the years. There is no textual evidence to support the conclusion that Dumbledore did anything to alter any function of the deluminator in any way.

Ron was simply not given proper instruction on how to use this device. Dumbledore knew how to activate those other features intentionally because this was his invention. Ron did not know how to activate those features and had to stumble across them by accident.

I could understand Hermione's reaction, for me it was understandable however possible unnecessary maybe, but it did show how Hermione cared about Ron's choice of actions, and Ron cared about Hermione's attitude towards him, which we see little of eariler on in the series as Ron and Hermione fall out quite a bit, although they seem slightly bothered, they don't as much as in DH.
I think i could also understand Ron's choice to leave, although it was a wrong choice and it is slightly annoying :lol: But i think the whole Deluminator return was quite good, i was more thankful of the fact that he returned :rotfl:

I agree. Hermione's reaction was understandable. She had run after Ron and begged him not to leave. She was very hurt and angry with him. It was natural for her to let that out when he returned. She had been holding most of it in during the time he was gone. Crying helps, but she really did not have an outlet for her anger until Ron returned.

HedwigOwl

June 8th, 2008, 9:17 pm

Yes But *flails to the ground in exasperation*

the snitch and the Book were NOT originally dumbledores so they HAD to be altered to do what he wanted them to!

The Deluminator did not! It was allready dumbledores, it did not need to be altered

Its not Logical!
(and i say this with the greatest like for everyone lol)

:argh:

So lovely that you like us!
But to the topic of the deluminator,

The deluminator was likely altered for Ron's use. We only ever see the deluminator used -- by both Dumbledore and Mad-Eye -- to capture light away, store it, and release it, nothing more. Dumbledore had exceptional magical skill, and an enormous intelligence, and would not have needed a tool to find people, even in extraordinary circumstances. The deluminator as we see Dumbledore use it is purpose enough for him. But Dumbledore knew that Ron might need to find his way back -- and he knew that Ron would want to return -- so he needed to leave Ron something that would help him do that.

The deluminator by its nature takes light energy, stores it, and releases it. A modification would allow it to take a different type of energy, and store it. That's what the blue light does for Ron. It's important to note that when the trio are first together in hiding, Ron clicks the deluminator on and off randomly over weeks, and the only thing we see the deluminator do is take in the lights --- but what if the now-modified deluminator was doing more than that? What if a second function was taking in energy from Hermione & Harry? When Ron was separated from Harry & Hermione, the deluminator would take in Ron's energy -- the desire to return. When the deluminator sensed that desire in Ron, it made a connection using the stored energy from Hermione & Harry.

I think it's important to note that when Ron heard Hermione's voice & clicked the deluminator, 2 separate things happened. The deluminator sucked out the lights in Ron's room (and the light stayed in there as it always did, Ron releases it in Malfoy Manor), and the blue light (which Ron describes similar to a portkey), appears outside of the house. When the blue light enters Ron, he knows what Hermione knows about where they're camped out.

It seems clear to me that the Deluminator was modified by Dumbledore to help Ron -- Dumbledore capitalized on the function of the deluminator to gather energy, giving it a related but separate function that applied to Ron alone.

Nor do I believe that was the first time Hermione said Ron's name during the time he was gone. It was the first time she said it to Harry, but I don't believe it was the first time she had said it. All those times she was off by herself while Harry was taking watch, etc... A young woman crying over the man she loves - she said his name at some point during that. "Why, Ron? Why?"
Sorry, but there's nothing in the books to support that scenario. In fact, we are told in the book that it was the first time either one of them had said Ron's name out loud since he left.

Scrimgeour makes it clear that all snitch's open when he asks Hermione to explain why a snitch would make a good hiding place for a small object. And Hermione understands exactly what he's asking so we know that she is aware that all snitch's open. If all snitch's did not open, then there would be no reason to think something could - or would - be hidden in one.
The only thing Scrimgeour makes clear is that he suspects that Dumbledore, with his "prodigious magical skill", hid something for Harry inside the Snitch which would open only for him, because Snitches have flesh memories. He never confirms that all Snitches open. Quite the opposite. And Hermione does not believe that Snitches open -- this is her quote, when Ron asks why Dumbledore would leave Harry an old Snitch: "I've no idea," said Hermione. "When Scrimgeour made you take it, Harry, I was so sure that something was going to happen!"
She does not say "I was sure it would open" -- she says "something was going to happen".

dazzel21

June 9th, 2008, 3:27 am

I think it was supposed to be that way, easy and to the point. I have always thought that Ron did not really mean it when he left Harry and Hermione in the middle of their hunt for the Horcruxes, JKR knows 'Ron would have always wanted to come back' so she gave him an easy way for him to do so.

MrSleepyHead

June 9th, 2008, 3:32 am

the snitch and the Book were NOT originally dumbledores so they HAD to be altered to do what he wanted them to!
The book was, indeed, Dumbledore's:
"'To Miss Hermione Jean Granger, I leave my copy of The Tales of Beedle the Bard...
The first feature is more like an electronic bug - had Ron known how to activate that feature, they could have used it to listen in on the Weasleys to make sure everyone was okay, pick up bits of news, etc...
But this is my point. I doubt that Ron could have knowingly activated it simply to "eavesdrop." He had to be in desperate need, brooding on getting back to that one person. Thus, when that one person says his name, the Deluminator alerted him. Ron could not have thought, "I want to know where my mum is, so I guess I will be in desperate need of her..."
There is evidence throughout the series that indicates he was using the deluminator - with all of it's separate functions - over the years.
And there is just as much evidence (if not more) to rebuke that other supporting evidence. If Dumbledore could "cast a charm on a dwelling that would immediately alert him if something happened to it," he could just as likely cast that same charm on a person.
Dumbledore used the deluminator when he left Harry at Privet Dr. for it's primary function - to put out the street lights so none of the neighbors would see them there. We are shown three separate functions for the deluminator.
I had posed that question in response to the theory that Dumbledore made the Deluminator's tracking device to spy on Harry. When Harry was one year old, Dumbledore would hardly have needed to make a Deluminator to spy on him.
The book wasn't really altered - he drew a symbol on one page of it, but that didn't alter the function of the book.
That symbol certainly altered the function of the book that Dumbledore intended. While he wanted Hermione to read about the Peverell brothers, he was particularly focused on dropping her hints about the symbol of the Deathly Hallows. Drawing this simple picture most definitely changed the impact of the book.
The snitch wasn't really altered either - not towards it's basic function. Dumbledore enchanted it so that it would only open for Harry at a specific time, but the evidence suggests it would always open.
It does not matter if the basic function was altered (though I disagree that its basic function was to open). It only matters that it was, overall, altered to help Harry. The Deluminator's basic function (putting out lights) was not altered, but what Dumbledore did to it (made it act as a tracking device) changed the entire device.

I think it's important to note that when Ron heard Hermione's voice & clicked the deluminator, 2 separate things happened. The deluminator sucked out the lights in Ron's room (and the light stayed in there as it always did, Ron releases it in Malfoy Manor)
While I agree with everything you said, I must point out that the light Ron releases in Malfoy Manor is from the light in the tent (which Ron sucked up when the Snatchers and Fenrir came).
The only thing Scrimgeour makes clear is that he suspects that Dumbledore, with his "prodigious magical skill", hid something for Harry inside the Snitch which would open only for him, because Snitches have flesh memories. He never confirms that all Snitches open. Quite the opposite. And Hermione does not believe that Snitches open -- this is her quote, when Ron asks why Dumbledore would leave Harry an old Snitch: "I've no idea," said Hermione. "When Scrimgeour made you take it, Harry, I was so sure that something was going to happen!"
She does not say "I was sure it would open" -- she says "something was going to happen".
Also, when Scrimgeour asks why "a Snitch would be a very good hiding place for a small object," Hermione does not answer, "Because it can open." She says "Because Snitches have flesh memories." Snitches have flesh memories so the first Seeker to touch it can be identified. Dumbledore, thus, would first have to enchant the Snitch to be able to open, and, second, had to use its flesh memory as a password.

KBPadfoot

June 9th, 2008, 6:38 pm

'his copy'

*sighs*
he didnt create it did he! , it was the original beedle the bard version he just owned it.

he created the deluminator!!!!

meesha1971

June 9th, 2008, 8:56 pm

It seems clear to me that the Deluminator was modified by Dumbledore to help Ron -- Dumbledore capitalized on the function of the deluminator to gather energy, giving it a related but separate function that applied to Ron alone.

There's still no evidence in the books to support that conclusion. The deluminator was Dumbledore's invention and there is evidence in the books to support that he used those other functions himself. There is nothing to suggest that he altered it in any way.

The fact that snitch's have flesh memories was never mentioned in any of the previous books either - not even Quidditch Through the Ages. But it is clear in DH that all snitch's had flesh memories - and they always did. This was simply the first time we learned of it. It is the same with the deluminator. The fact that it had more than one function was not mentioned prior to DH, but that doesn't change the fact that it did have more than one function and there is nothing in the text to indicate that there was any change or alteration to the device itself.

Sorry, but there's nothing in the books to support that scenario. In fact, we are told in the book that it was the first time either one of them had said Ron's name out loud since he left.

Harry would have no way of knowing what Hermione did/said when he wasn't around. They were not attached at the hip and Harry is not psychic. It is most likely that Hermione did say Ron's name at some point - particularly right after he left.

The only thing Scrimgeour makes clear is that he suspects that Dumbledore, with his "prodigious magical skill", hid something for Harry inside the Snitch which would open only for him, because Snitches have flesh memories. He never confirms that all Snitches open. Quite the opposite. And Hermione does not believe that Snitches open -- this is her quote, when Ron asks why Dumbledore would leave Harry an old Snitch: "I've no idea," said Hermione. "When Scrimgeour made you take it, Harry, I was so sure that something was going to happen!"
She does not say "I was sure it would open" -- she says "something was going to happen".

That doesn't change the fact that snitches would not make good hiding places for small objects unless they all did open. Scrimgeour is quite clear on that - he's not saying that Dumbledore charmed the snitch to open. He's saying that he suspects Dumbledore charmed it so it would only open for Harry. There is a difference.

And it's a moot point anyway. Dumbledore did not invent snitches so it really doesn't matter. He did invent the deluminator and, as such, he knew how to work all of the various functions of it. Ron did not.

The book was, indeed, Dumbledore's:
"'To Miss Hermione Jean Granger, I leave my copy of The Tales of Beedle the Bard...

He owned it - he did not invent it and he did not alter the function of it. He drew a symbol on one page - it was still a book that could be read.

But this is my point. I doubt that Ron could have knowingly activated it simply to "eavesdrop." He had to be in desperate need, brooding on getting back to that one person. Thus, when that one person says his name, the Deluminator alerted him. Ron could not have thought, "I want to know where my mum is, so I guess I will be in desperate need of her..."

That was my point as well. Ron never received instructions on how to use it so he stumbled across those functions by accident. It is most likely that there was a way to intentionally activate those other functions - Ron just didn't know how to do it. And there is nothing on page to tell us how Ron activated that function. Ron didn't know himself how he did it.

Dumbledore would have known how to intentionally activate those functions because he invented that device.

And there is just as much evidence (if not more) to rebuke that other supporting evidence. If Dumbledore could "cast a charm on a dwelling that would immediately alert him if something happened to it," he could just as likely cast that same charm on a person.

Then why bother casting a charm on the dwelling? Why not just cast the charm on James, Lily, and/or Harry instead? No, the evidence does not support that idea. Jo was very specific about that - he could cast a charm on a dwelling. That does not automatically correlate to casting the same charm on a person. Hermione was able to cast a charm on her beaded bag so the inside of it would expand to hold pretty much anything - but she couldn't cast that same charm on a person.

It is most likely that Dumbledore used the eavesdropping function of the deluminator to keep tabs on what was going on. This explains how he knew that Harry and Ron were going to use the Mirror of Erised that night - as well as a lot of other things that Dumbledore knew about when he really shouldn't have. He could know those things if he was occasionally listening to their conversations with the deluminator.

I had posed that question in response to the theory that Dumbledore made the Deluminator's tracking device to spy on Harry. When Harry was one year old, Dumbledore would hardly have needed to make a Deluminator to spy on him.

Well, I don't think Dumbledore invented it for that purpose, but the various functions of the deluminator were certainly useful for that purpose. We don't know when Dumbledore invented the deluminator - or why. It could even have been something he and Grindelwald came up with. It could have been something he came up with after he started teaching as a means to keep an eye on students in general. It might have been something he had an idea for because of Ariana - a way to help his mother watch over her and be able to get to her quickly if she slipped off. We can't really say.

All we really know is that those various functions would have been useful for Dumbledore in a lot of different situations and there is evidence that he used the various functions of the deluminator throughout the series. Since this was a device that he invented, he would know exactly how to activate each separate function of it.

That symbol certainly altered the function of the book that Dumbledore intended. While he wanted Hermione to read about the Peverell brothers, he was particularly focused on dropping her hints about the symbol of the Deathly Hallows. Drawing this simple picture most definitely changed the impact of the book.

That doesn't alter the function of the book. It is still a book - you still have to read it. Drawing the symbol on the page really didn't change anything. It was actually the fact that Krum had told Harry (in the guise of Barney) that it was Grindelwald's mark in conjunction with seeing the same symbol on the gravestone and the picture of Dumbledore's letter in Rita's book that allowed Hermione to figure out that symbol was significant. Drawing it in the book really didn't do much by itself - and it certainly didn't change the function of the book.

It does not matter if the basic function was altered (though I disagree that its basic function was to open). It only matters that it was, overall, altered to help Harry. The Deluminator's basic function (putting out lights) was not altered, but what Dumbledore did to it (made it act as a tracking device) changed the entire device.

Adding a charm so the snitch would only open at a specific time did not alter the function of the snitch. Regardless, it is a moot point because it does not matter. As I said before, Dumbledore did not invent snitches. He did invent the deluminator and, as such, he knew how to activate all the various functions of the device. There is no evidence to suggest that he altered that device in any way.

Also, when Scrimgeour asks why "a Snitch would be a very good hiding place for a small object," Hermione does not answer, "Because it can open." She says "Because Snitches have flesh memories." Snitches have flesh memories so the first Seeker to touch it can be identified. Dumbledore, thus, would first have to enchant the Snitch to be able to open, and, second, had to use its flesh memory as a password.

The text does not support that conclusion though. There is nothing to suggest that Dumbledore charmed the snitch to open. It only says that he charmed it so it would only open for Harry - the snitch would already open, Dumbledore just made sure it would only open for Harry at a certain time.

As I said before, there would be no reason for Scrimgeour - or anyone else - to suspect that anything was hidden inside the snitch if all snitches could not be opened.

'his copy'

*sighs*
he didnt create it did he! , it was the original beedle the bard version he just owned it.

he created the deluminator!!!!

Exactly. :agree:

That is the only thing that matters here. Whatever Dumbledore did to the book or the snitch is irrelevant because he did not invent those things. He invented the deluminator and, as such, he would know how to use all the various functions of it. There is no textual evidence to support the conclusion that he altered the device in any way. There is textual evidence to support the idea that he used those various functions himself throughout the series - particularly the eavesdropping function.

Honestly, I really don't see what the fuss is. It was a brilliant invention that is a tribute to Dumbledore's intelligence. The only downside is the fact that he never gave Ron any instructions on how to use the device and intentionally activate those functions. And that would apply even if he did alter the device in some way. Either way, Ron was not told how to use it and had to stumble across those other functions by accident.

hackett

June 9th, 2008, 9:14 pm

I could understand Hermione's reaction, for me it was understandable however possible unnecessary maybe, but it did show how Hermione cared about Ron's choice of actions, and Ron cared about Hermione's attitude towards him, which we see little of eariler on in the series as Ron and Hermione fall out quite a bit, although they seem slightly bothered, they don't as much as in DH.
I think i could also understand Ron's choice to leave, although it was a wrong choice and it is slightly annoying :lol: But i think the whole Deluminator return was quite good, i was more thankful of the fact that he returned :rotfl:

That's the realistic way any girlfriend would act. She's past the are they or aren't they stage of being a couple. I thought it was awesome.

HedwigOwl

June 10th, 2008, 6:34 am

Harry would have no way of knowing what Hermione did/said when he wasn't around. They were not attached at the hip and Harry is not psychic. It is most likely that Hermione did say Ron's name at some point - particularly right after he left.
There is more evidence in the books for the conclusion that no one said Ron's name before that. We are told on page that they don't discuss Ron, even indirectly, and when Hermione does finally say Ron's name, we are told that was the first time his name had been said out loud since Ron left. JKR is telling us, more than once, that Ron is not discussed in the interim.

That doesn't change the fact that snitches would not make good hiding places for small objects unless they all did open. Scrimgeour is quite clear on that - he's not saying that Dumbledore charmed the snitch to open. He's saying that he suspects Dumbledore charmed it so it would only open for Harry. There is a difference.
The key here is Scrimgeour's use of the words "Dumbledore's prodigious magical skill". It wouldn't be necessary to say that unless what was done to the Snitch was beyond normal function. If it was normal, it would not make sense to mention Dumbledore's uncommon skill with magic at all. There's no evidence on page that Snitches open. And Hermione, who knew about flesh memories, clearly says she thought "something" would happen. She did not even imply she thought it would open; if it was normal, she would have been specific.

All we really know is that those various functions would have been useful for Dumbledore in a lot of different situations and there is evidence that he used the various functions of the deluminator throughout the series.
I don't recall any evidence in the books that Dumbledore (or Moody) used the deluminator for anything other than putting out lights. If you have evidence in the books on page of his use of it with different functions, I'd be interested in seeing the quotes, because I honestly don't recall that we are shown him using it any other way.

KBPadfoot

June 10th, 2008, 3:44 pm

Meesha1971 Honestly, I really don't see what the fuss is. It was a brilliant invention that is a tribute to Dumbledore's intelligence. The only downside is the fact that he never gave Ron any instructions on how to use the device and intentionally activate those functions. And that would apply even if he did alter the device in some way. Either way, Ron was not told how to use it and had to stumble across those other functions by accident

the fuss is... were right theyre wrong lol

HedwigOwl I don't recall any evidence in the books that Dumbledore (or Moody) used the deluminator for anything other than putting out lights. If you have evidence in the books on page of his use of it with different functions, I'd be interested in seeing the quotes, because I honestly don't recall that we are shown him using it any other way.

look just because the books dont say that there was another use for the deluminator doesnt mean there wasnt one (allready existing) If your relying on txtual evidence then your screwed. There are several thing that Rowling has implyed in the books that have just as much fact (in the potter sense) ,as the stuff shes actually written down.

and personally i think the evidence implying that the deluminator was used as a 'bugging and rescue' tool before rons discovery of it, is huge. But you have to open your eyes a bit further and read between the lines,The books are more than just words.Expand your mind! *dances a crazy little Hippy dance*

MrSleepyHead

June 10th, 2008, 5:38 pm

he didnt create it did he! , it was the original beedle the bard version he just owned it.

he created the deluminator!!!!
I clearly misunderstood, I apologize. You never specified, so there is no reason to be exasperated.
It is most likely that Hermione did say Ron's name at some point - particularly right after he left.
Hermione did say Ron's name immediately after he left, but Ron was immediately intercepted by Snatchers. He could only hear Hermione say his name when he was brooding continuously on how to get back to them and absentmindedly playing with the Deluminator. Also, I think Harry's evidence of neither of them saying Ron's name is pretty strong, since the narrator continuously places facts into Harry's thoughts.
It is most likely that there was a way to intentionally activate those other functions - Ron just didn't know how to do it.
This is where we disagree. I believe the only way Ron could have used the Deluminator is the way that he did. He could not consciously use it to find the location of anyone else.
There is no textual evidence to support the conclusion that he altered the device in any way.
There is plenty if you do not believe Dumbledore used the Deluminator to return to Hogwarts in CoS, meet with Harry and Hermione in the hospital wing in PoA, etc. We know that Dumbledore can cast a charm on a dwelling (and possibly an individual) that alerts him if something is wrong. That is the strongest evidence in opposition to his needing the tracking device in the Deluminator.
There is textual evidence to support the idea that he used those various functions himself throughout the series - particularly the eavesdropping function.
I disagree. HedwigOwl has already rebuked and disproved all of that "textual evidence." Finding evidence of the Deluminator's tracking device is the perfect example of seeing what one wants to see.
the fuss is... were right theyre wrong
That is a bold statement that cannot be supported. Neither side has gleaming, clean-cut evidence (though I believe the group I am part of has the most support, without any "implied evidence"). The only way we can declare one side correct is if JKR tells us.
and personally i think the evidence implying that the deluminator was used as a 'bugging and rescue' tool before rons discovery of it, is huge.
As I previously stated, HedwigOwl has disproved all of that "implied evidence" (there is an oxymoron for you!). Considering Dumbledore normally used the simplest spells for his most brilliant (and bewildering) actions (i.e. a Disillusionment Charm to make himself invisible, casting Hominum Revelio to find Harry and Ron, etc.), I find it hard to believe that he used the Deluminator in those cases.

KBPadfoot

June 11th, 2008, 3:28 pm

I find it hard to believe that he used the Deluminator in those cases

but he could have done...

meesha1971

June 13th, 2008, 7:30 am

Hermione did say Ron's name immediately after he left, but Ron was immediately intercepted by Snatchers. He could only hear Hermione say his name when he was brooding continuously on how to get back to them and absentmindedly playing with the Deluminator. Also, I think Harry's evidence of neither of them saying Ron's name is pretty strong, since the narrator continuously places facts into Harry's thoughts.

All that tells us is that Harry didn't hear Hermione say Ron's name. It does not tell us whether or not she said Ron's name when she was alone. Considering how upset Hermione was and that she was crying, it is most likely that she did say Ron's name when she was alone. That would have occurred off page where Harry did not hear it.

This is where we disagree. I believe the only way Ron could have used the Deluminator is the way that he did. He could not consciously use it to find the location of anyone else.

Then it would not have worked that way at all. It is a device with various functions and all of those functions must have some way to consciously activate them or they will not work. This was not something that happened at random with no design. The fact that Ron was able to use the deluminator for both functions makes it clear - those functions could be consciously activated. Ron simply did not know how to do that because Dumbledore never gave him any instructions on how to use the deluminator.

It is also significant that Ron did figure out - to some extent - how to consciously activate the tracking feature. The first time, he stumbled across that by accident after he had accidentally activated the "electronic bug" feature. After that, he was able to do it intentionally - and they weren't saying his name then.

So the text shows that these are two separate functions of the deluminator and they can be activated intentionally. Ron just didn't know how to activate those functions because he was never given instruction on how to use the deluminator.

There is plenty if you do not believe Dumbledore used the Deluminator to return to Hogwarts in CoS, meet with Harry and Hermione in the hospital wing in PoA, etc. We know that Dumbledore can cast a charm on a dwelling (and possibly an individual) that alerts him if something is wrong. That is the strongest evidence in opposition to his needing the tracking device in the Deluminator.

There is no textual evidence to support that conclusion. Nor is there any evidence that Dumbledore could cast a charm like that on an individual. If he could, then it would have been more logical for him to have cast such a charm on James, Lily, and/or Harry rather than their house.

And that charm does not invalidate the need for a tracking device because you have to know where the location is to begin with in order to use it. The deluminator allows for tracking of an individual without knowing the location.

Nor does that charm invalidate the need for the function of an "electronic bug" because that would allow Dumbledore to listen in on conversations - and he wouldn't need to know the location of the individual to do it.

I disagree. HedwigOwl has already rebuked and disproved all of that "textual evidence." Finding evidence of the Deluminator's tracking device is the perfect example of seeing what one wants to see.

I disagree. The textual evidence was not rebuked or disproven as far as I can see. It is most likely that Dumbledore used the deluminator on those occasions. And that provides the best explanation for how Dumbledore was able to know things he shouldn't have been able to know.

In PS/SS, Dumbledore could use Hominem Revelio to know that Harry and Ron were in the mirror room once they were already there. But how did he know to be there waiting for them in the first place? The most likely answer is that he used the "electronic bug" feature of the deluminator and listened in on their conversation to find out whether or not Harry had found the mirror. He had to be able to ascertain that Harry had found the mirror. Dumbledore was not omniscent and there is no other way presented in the text for him to know that Harry had found it.

We also see that in COS. Dumbledore gives instructions to McGonagall to bring Harry to him if there was another attack and he was around. The implication is that Dumbledore already knew that Harry was hearing voices in the walls. He gave Harry a chance to confide in him. It is most likely that Dumbledore was using the deluminator to listen in on conversations to keep an eye on Harry.

I don't think Dumbledore used the tracking feature as much - though there is textual evidence to support that he used it occasionally. I think he primarily used the "electronic bug" function to listen in on their conversations from time to time to check up on Harry. That is the most likely answer for how he knew things that he really did not have any way of knowing.

padfootrules

June 13th, 2008, 10:08 am

It was the most courageous thing anyone could have ever done... He left... but he admitted his fault and returned back to his friends even though it cost his pride... That makes him the bravest of the trio and the best of the three. When he returned he did not return a boy... he was a man.

KOTMods

June 13th, 2008, 9:48 pm

It was convenient, but there was a substantial reason for it. Dumbledore knew that he would be conflicted (somehow - his mind works in mysterious ways!), and he also knew that when he did leave, he would definitely want to come back, and Dumbledore provided that. I think it was lovely, it shows just how great Dumbledore is, and in his own way, just how loyal Ron is.

LuMac

June 14th, 2008, 7:40 am

I just chalk it up to another one of the many Deus Ex Machina's in DH. The entire book is littered with on-the-spot inspirations and "new" magic that really should have been explained before. It's lazy writing, quite simply. My bigger issue with Ron leaving isn't it even with that though. Why did JKR have to choose him again to abandon Harry in time of great need? She had already used this plot line to great effect in GoF and all the emotional ramifications of such an event were shown in great detail in that book. Both characters learned and grew up from it. So why use it again? Why not Hermione? It would've made for a far more interesting read, at least, considering it hadn't been done before. Not to mention the technical issues it would've created. While Ron's the heart of the trio, Hermione's the brains. Harry and Ron trying to go on with the horcrux hunt without Hermione would've been a tall order. But conflict like that is why we read fiction to begin with. It certainly would've made for a FAAAAR more interesting read had it just been Ron and Harry racking their brains together and figuring out what step to take next. Not to mention how each would've dealt emotionally with Hermione's departure.

DH is so full of wasted potential man.

SSJ_Jup81

June 14th, 2008, 9:40 am

My bigger issue with Ron leaving isn't it even with that though. Why did JKR have to choose him again to abandon Harry in time of great need? She had already used this plot line to great effect in GoF and all the emotional ramifications of such an event were shown in great detail in that book. Both characters learned and grew up from it.Because it made the most sense to use Ron, who didn't even consider leaving at all until Harry told him twice to leave. Ron's the only character of the trio that has an legit connection to the wizarding world. With Ron's leaving to defeat his personal demons, he was able to obtain some information in the wizarding world to relate back to Harry and Hermione after he returned. Neither Harry nor Hermione has this luxury since their only connection to the wizarding world, technically, is Hogwarts.

Also, Ron's character is extremely emotional, and he's incredibly close to his family, who was on the front lines fighting. With the exception of probably Charlie, all of them were in immediate danger, hence his constant worry.

To be honest, the only ones I could've seen leaving was either Harry or Ron for literary reasons. Hermione, not so much since I couldn't see her fulfilling any purpose of she'd left.So why use it again?The situations are too different to compare, imo. In GoF, tempers flew, miscommunication issues rose, and they both were too mad and prideful to just sit and talk things out.

In DH, Ron was being manipulated, technically, into thinking they didn't think much of him. He's susceptible to that type of thing. I pretty much felt that it was being hinted at in earlier books that his character was weak minded in these types of situations with the way he had trouble throwing off charms.Why not Hermione? It would've made for a far more interesting read, at least, considering it hadn't been done before.It might would've been interesting, but from a literary standpoint, there would've been no reason for it because of the way her character was written. She's not emotional in the way Ron is. She may be close to her family, but JKR wrote Hermione as almost detached and independent from them. Ron's the complete opposite in this regard, meaning he'd be more worrisome compared to both Harry and Hermione. Harry worried about the Weasleys, but not to the extent Ron did, since it was his family out there fighting for Harry's sake.

KBPadfoot

June 14th, 2008, 2:17 pm

Ron had to be the one to leave.
Out of the Trio he is the most normal, grounded person,The sort of guy that is in every group of friends.
To have him leave and return shows us that everyone is human.

Plus it gives the Ron/Hermione sub plot some oomph..

HedwigOwl

June 14th, 2008, 5:39 pm

HedwigOwl

look just because the books dont say that there was another use for the deluminator doesnt mean there wasnt one (allready existing) If your relying on txtual evidence then your screwed. There are several thing that Rowling has implyed in the books that have just as much fact (in the potter sense) ,as the stuff shes actually written down.
A bit more polite language would be appreciated. As far as relying on book text, I think that it's the only way to go on this particular question. There are no more books coming where JKR will slip in a clue about the many uses of the deluminator. There are things we'll not know anytime soon (like the "12 uses of dragon's blood") --- but at least they're mentioned conceptually in the books, so we know they exist at least. The fact remains that we have no clue, no inference at all that the deluminator did anything other than what we directly saw in the books. It captured and held light, and released it, and as left for Ron, it had been enabled to help him return to the others, because Dumbledore knew Ron and anticipated it might happen. Nothing else is even remotely implied in the book text, so no evidence to support speculation.

and personally i think the evidence implying that the deluminator was used as a 'bugging and rescue' tool before rons discovery of it, is huge. But you have to open your eyes a bit further and read between the lines,The books are more than just words.Expand your mind!
Ironically, if you knew me at all (and apparently you think you do because you're giving me advice), you wouldn't be making those statements.

You say there is "huge" evidence in the books implying the speculated uses of the deluminator. Yet no one has quoted anything from the books that is clearly tied to the deluminator. All can be explained by other means that have already been revealed in the books (casting a charm on a dwelling or place, hominum revelio, Dumbledore's disillusionment charm that makes him invisible, etc.). As these are already given to us in the book text, they are much stronger evidence for the explanation of Dumbledore's ability to know what's going on. Dumbledore knew the trio were investigating the Sorcerer's Stone, it would be simple enough to cast a charm on the final room so he would know if anyone entered it, for example.

It was the most courageous thing anyone could have ever done... He left... but he admitted his fault and returned back to his friends even though it cost his pride... That makes him the bravest of the trio and the best of the three. When he returned he did not return a boy... he was a man.
Are you saying that Ron's loss of pride in returning makes him braver than Harry walking to let Voldemort AK him? If you are, then I have to disagree rather strongly.

KBPadfoot

June 14th, 2008, 6:56 pm

A bit more polite language would be appreciated

I wasnt being impolite
and i wasnt giving you advice, were disagreeing on a subject and i was argueing with your perspective.

I resent what your implying.

I am purely trying to get you to admit there is a possibility that the deluminator wasnt altered, I except your opinion because none of us can be totally sure that were right either way. I am not assuming my infallibility.

This isnt personal,dont make it so.

gertiekeddle

June 14th, 2008, 7:18 pm

Please guys, if you have problems with each other use the report button or owl any moderator online, but don't solve such things in-thread. It's simply off-topic.

Additionally please respect Rule No 7 and look at your spelling and capitalisation to help out our many non-native speakers:

4. Please remember to watch your spelling, grammar and abbreviations. Lazy English and Instant Messaging/phone text lingo is not appreciated by anyone and doesn't help our many members who speak English as a second language. Please try and be as clear and precise as you can when posting. Remember to spell check your work using an online spell checker or MSWord and ALL CAPS is not to be used when posting comments.

ronjalina

June 14th, 2008, 7:43 pm

All that tells us is that Harry didn't hear Hermione say Ron's name. It does not tell us whether or not she said Ron's name when she was alone. Considering how upset Hermione was and that she was crying, it is most likely that she did say Ron's name when she was alone. That would have occurred off page where Harry did not hear it.
Isn't the notion Hermione had said Ron's name before we witnessed it onpage refuted by the mere fact that Ron didn't return sooner? He wanted to come back immediately after he'd disapparated, which was within minutes after he'd left the tent. Had Hermione said his name sometime between his leaving and Christmas day, wouldn't he have been back earlier?

I don't say the deluminator couldn't be used as a bugging device, I have to give that more thought to decide for myself. Both sides have good arguments but by the looks of it no clear-cut textual evidence. But as it seems to me from reading Ron's explanations in the tent, it was his wanting to come back desperately, I imagine him thinking about Harry and Hermione and wishing to be with them constantly, that somehow enabled him/activated the deluminator so he could hear Hermione saying his name. He wanted to come back immediately after he'd left, had Hermione said his name sooner, he would have heard her and be back with Harry and Hermione sooner. At least that's how I always understood the whole episode.

meesha1971

June 15th, 2008, 1:56 am

Isn't the notion Hermione had said Ron's name before we witnessed it onpage refuted by the mere fact that Ron didn't return sooner? He wanted to come back immediately after he'd disapparated, which was within minutes after he'd left the tent. Had Hermione said his name sometime between his leaving and Christmas day, wouldn't he have been back earlier?

I don't say the deluminator couldn't be used as a bugging device, I have to give that more thought to decide for myself. Both sides have good arguments but by the looks of it no clear-cut textual evidence. But as it seems to me from reading Ron's explanations in the tent, it was his wanting to come back desperately, I imagine him thinking about Harry and Hermione and wishing to be with them constantly, that somehow enabled him/activated the deluminator so he could hear Hermione saying his name. He wanted to come back immediately after he'd left, had Hermione said his name sooner, he would have heard her and be back with Harry and Hermione sooner. At least that's how I always understood the whole episode.

I thought that for a while, but the more I look at it, the less sense that makes. Hermione saying Ron's name can't be what activated the deluminator because she wasn't anywhere near it. Ron had to activate the deluminator - he just doesn't know how he did it because he never received any instructions on how to use it. Ron said it himself -

“It doesn’t just turn the lights on and off,” said Ron. “I don’t know how it works or why it happened then and not any other time, because I’ve been wanting to come back ever since I left. But I was listening to the radio really early on Christmas morning and I heard … I heard you.”

Ron didn't know how he did it, because he didn't know how the deluminator worked. But it had to be something Ron did because Hermione wasn't there. They never bother to try and figure it out so the only thing we know for sure is that Ron was listening to the radio. Now, we see later, that he uses his wand to tune in a station on the radio - and he also uses it to try and tune in Potterwatch because there's a password for that.

It seems most likely that Ron was probably trying to tune in Potterwatch and going through passwords. That would imply that this function of the deluminator was activated by some kind of password and Ron accidentally stumbled across that while trying to tune in the radio without realizing it.

And - in looking through this again - I think Dumbledore may have left them a vague clue about that. Unfortunately, too vague for them to ever work out, but a clue nonetheless.

“ ‘The Last Will and Testament of Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore’ …Yes, here we are …. ‘To Ronald Bilius Weasley, I leave my Deluminator, in the hope that he will remember me when he uses it.’ ”

It's likely that the password to activate that function of the Deluminator was one of Dumbledore's names. And we do know that Potterwatch used "Albus" as a password later on. So it's likely that they used "Dumbledore" or one of his other names as a password as well. If that was the password to activate the Deluminator, then Ron would have activated it by accident when he was trying to tune in the radio.

KBPadfoot

June 15th, 2008, 12:18 pm

DH“ ‘The Last Will and Testament of Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore’ …Yes, here we are …. ‘To Ronald Bilius Weasley, I leave my Deluminator, in the hope that he will remember me when he uses it.’ ”

Oh i forgot about that. :)

Now im not one for trawling for quotes but isnt there a bit (possibly in OoTP) when dumbledore says something like -I have watched you over the past couple of years,more closely than you could imagine.

If anyone wished to dig it out, feel free

ronjalina

June 15th, 2008, 4:01 pm

“It doesn’t just turn the lights on and off,” said Ron. “I don’t know how it works or why it happened then and not any other time, because I’ve been wanting to come back ever since I left. But I was listening to the radio really early on Christmas morning and I heard … I heard you.”And the coloured part of this is exactly what makes me think it has to have something to do with Ron's desire to return in combination with one of the other two finally saying his name. He'd wanted to come back ever since he left and the only thing that was different this time was Hermione saying his name. What I also found interesting is Ron's description how the blue light went into him somewhere near his heart. Ron is the heart of the trio, Harry and Hermione wished him to be back with all their hearts. Hermione finally says Ron's name et voilà. Seems to be the most 'logical' explanation for something which I always felt was deliberately left mysterious by the author.

Ron is the one who is most susceptible for certain kinds of magic - i.e. his being affected by Veela power more than Harry, his inability to shake off the Imperius Curse, his likely sensing the taboo on Voldemort's name and his being the first to notice the locket's heartbeat. He is the most outwardly emotional of the trio. Dumbledore knew all that and might have thought Ron would be the most likely to be able to 'acitvate' the function of the deluminator that would reunite the trio should they be forced to separate sometime during the Horcrux hunt.

It seems most likely that Ron was probably trying to tune in Potterwatch and going through passwords. That would imply that this function of the deluminator was activated by some kind of password and Ron accidentally stumbled across that while trying to tune in the radio without realizing it.

And - in looking through this again - I think Dumbledore may have left them a vague clue about that. Unfortunately, too vague for them to ever work out, but a clue nonetheless.

“ ‘The Last Will and Testament of Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore’ …Yes, here we are …. ‘To Ronald Bilius Weasley, I leave my Deluminator, in the hope that he will remember me when he uses it.’ ”

It's likely that the password to activate that function of the Deluminator was one of Dumbledore's names. And we do know that Potterwatch used "Albus" as a password later on. So it's likely that they used "Dumbledore" or one of his other names as a password as well. If that was the password to activate the Deluminator, then Ron would have activated it by accident when he was trying to tune in the radio.That seems to me too much of a coincidence that Hermione happens to say Ron's name at exactly the same time he accidentally stumbles across the correct 'password' to activate the deluminator. Although Dumbledore's words in his will 'remember me' is a nice find. But since it was never resolved or explained onpage and never happened again onpage, it seems more an assumption to me.

MrSleepyHead

June 15th, 2008, 5:17 pm

I thought that for a while, but the more I look at it, the less sense that makes. Hermione saying Ron's name can't be what activated the deluminator because she wasn't anywhere near it.
I do not see why Hermione's distance from Ron and the Deluminator should have any effect. If we know one thing, distance is rarely a factor in the Wizarding World.
Ron had to activate the deluminator - he just doesn't know how he did it because he never received any instructions on how to use it. Ron said it himself -
“It doesn’t just turn the lights on and off,” said Ron. “I don’t know how it works or why it happened then and not any other time, because I’ve been wanting to come back ever since I left. But I was listening to the radio really early on Christmas morning and I heard … I heard you.”
Ron didn't know how he did it, because he didn't know how the deluminator worked. But it had to be something Ron did because Hermione wasn't there.
I disagree. From Ron's statement, it seems more as if it was Hermione saying "Ron" that activated it. As ronjalina says, it is too much of a coincidence that Ron learned how to activate it precisely when Hermione said his name. Thus, it would have been Hermione saying Ron's name that activated it (coupled with Ron's desire to get back to them).

I do not deny that Ron activated the Deluminator. However, he only partially activated it by constantly brooding on getting back. It was Hermione actually saying "Ron" that triggered the Deluminator's special feature.
It seems most likely that Ron was probably trying to tune in Potterwatch and going through passwords. That would imply that this function of the deluminator was activated by some kind of password and Ron accidentally stumbled across that while trying to tune in the radio without realizing it.
Ron said that he was listening to the radio - not that he was trying to listen to it.
And - in looking through this again - I think Dumbledore may have left them a vague clue about that. Unfortunately, too vague for them to ever work out, but a clue nonetheless.
“ ‘The Last Will and Testament of Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore’ …Yes, here we are …. ‘To Ronald Bilius Weasley, I leave my Deluminator, in the hope that he will remember me when he uses it.’ ”
It's likely that the password to activate that function of the Deluminator was one of Dumbledore's names. And we do know that Potterwatch used "Albus" as a password later on. So it's likely that they used "Dumbledore" or one of his other names as a password as well. If that was the password to activate the Deluminator, then Ron would have activated it by accident when he was trying to tune in the radio.
Though I do not like the the password theory, this is a good catch, since we know that Ron did try using "Albus" to enter PotterWatch, though it does not seem as if he had tried it beforehand (since it took him until March).
And the coloured part of this is exactly what makes me think it has to have something to do with Ron's desire to return in combination with one of the other two finally saying his name. He'd wanted to come back ever since he left and the only thing that was different this time was Hermione saying his name.
Exactly. It is simply too coincidental that the only time either Harry or Hermione said Ron's name (I am trusting that Harry was correct that neither of them had said his name since) is when the Deluminator was activated.
Ron is the one who is most susceptible for certain kinds of magic - i.e. his being affected by Veela power more than Harry, his inability to shake off the Imperius Curse, his likely sensing the taboo on Voldemort's name and his being the first to notice the locket's heartbeat.
While I agree, I must point out that only Harry could conquer the Imperius Curse (thus Hermione was just as susceptible to magic as Ron in this case) and Ron did not necessarily sense the Taboo on "Voldemort." He found out about the Taboo most likely from Bill, since he knew that Kingsley was almost caught by saying the name. Ron just always refrained from saying "Voldemort," and, in this case, it helped.

DeathlyH

June 15th, 2008, 5:22 pm

I do not see why Hermione's distance from Ron and the Deluminator should have any effect. If we know one thing, distance is rarely a factor in the Wizarding World.I agree. And If it wasn't Hermione saying Ron's name that activated the Deluminator, then what was it? Ron heard Hermione saying something about a wand, and Hermione was talking about his wand the first time she said his name. That can't be a coincidence.Though I do not like the the password theory, this is a good catch, since we know that Ron did try using "Albus" to enter PotterWatch, though it does not seem as if he had tried it beforehand (since it took him until March).Maybe he did try beforehand- after all, the password changes with each day. It says Ron was trying for days to get the correct password; it's possible that he tried Albus on a different day, when it wasn't the correct password.

ronjalina

June 15th, 2008, 7:16 pm

I do not see why Hermione's distance from Ron and the Deluminator should have any effect. If we know one thing, distance is rarely a factor in the Wizarding World.:agree: I guess if distance was a problem in this case, then there is no way Dumbledore could've heard his name in the deluminator when he was on his way to London in PS. ;)

I do not deny that Ron activated the Deluminator. However, he only partially activated it by constantly brooding on getting back. It was Hermione actually saying "Ron" that triggered the Deluminator's special feature.That's how I imagine that it worked.

While I agree, I must point out that only Harry could conquer the Imperius Curse (thus Hermione was just as susceptible to magic as Ron in this case) and Ron did not necessarily sense the Taboo on "Voldemort." He found out about the Taboo most likely from Bill, since he knew that Kingsley was almost caught by saying the name. Ron just always refrained from saying "Voldemort," and, in this case, it helped.I'm not saying Hermione or Harry aren't susceptible to magic at all, just that it seems JKR emphasised that Ron is a wee bit more susceptible. About the taboo: Ron had no way of knowing about the taboo of course. He found out when he was at Shell Cottage during his first stay there. But he had begun to say Voldemort's name and judging by the complete lack of reaction from Harry and Hermione when he says it first onpage at the beginning of DH, I figure he had already said the name repeatedly so it wasn't something to comment on for his friends. But suddenly, after their escape from the Ministry, he reacts so weird about it? Is so averse against saying the name that even Harry and Hermione deem it better to not say it anymore? I just think it's possible he had this kind of 'inspriation'. He had been growing up with all the superstition about saying Voldemort's name after all, so maybe his senses were just a bit more sharpened with regards to saying Voldemort's name.

meesha1971

June 15th, 2008, 8:37 pm

And the coloured part of this is exactly what makes me think it has to have something to do with Ron's desire to return in combination with one of the other two finally saying his name. He'd wanted to come back ever since he left and the only thing that was different this time was Hermione saying his name. What I also found interesting is Ron's description how the blue light went into him somewhere near his heart. Ron is the heart of the trio, Harry and Hermione wished him to be back with all their hearts. Hermione finally says Ron's name et voilà. Seems to be the most 'logical' explanation for something which I always felt was deliberately left mysterious by the author.

I don't see that as a logical explanation - romantic to be sure, but not logical. As Snape said in OOTP - "Time and space matter in magic, Potter." Harry and Hermione were not anywhere near the deluminator so nothing they did could have activated. Ron activated it - he did not know how he did it or why it happened at that moment, but it was his actions that did it. Nobody else could have activated it because time and space matter in magic.

Ron is the one who is most susceptible for certain kinds of magic - i.e. his being affected by Veela power more than Harry, his inability to shake off the Imperius Curse, his likely sensing the taboo on Voldemort's name and his being the first to notice the locket's heartbeat. He is the most outwardly emotional of the trio. Dumbledore knew all that and might have thought Ron would be the most likely to be able to 'acitvate' the function of the deluminator that would reunite the trio should they be forced to separate sometime during the Horcrux hunt.

I agree that Ron is more susceptible to things like the Veela power and the Imperius curse. That is why the locket affected him to a greater degree and that was significant to Ron leaving. I don't believe he would have left otherwise.

However, activating the deluminator would be an entirely different matter because there would have to be some type of spell or password to do it. Someone who was miles away from it would not be able to activate it.

That seems to me too much of a coincidence that Hermione happens to say Ron's name at exactly the same time he accidentally stumbles across the correct 'password' to activate the deluminator. Although Dumbledore's words in his will 'remember me' is a nice find. But since it was never resolved or explained onpage and never happened again onpage, it seems more an assumption to me.

There are a lot of coincidences in the HP books - the trio got a lot of lucky breaks due to such coincidences. It's a huge coincidence that Ron was even awake before dawn and listening to the radio - Harry noted that it was "almost dawn" when he finally woke up just before Hermione said Ron's name. It's a coincidence either way really, but we have to keep the rules of magic in mind and time and space matter in magic. Hermione could not have been the one to activate it because she was not there.

I do not see why Hermione's distance from Ron and the Deluminator should have any effect. If we know one thing, distance is rarely a factor in the Wizarding World.

That is incorrect. Distance is a huge factor in magic. We learn that from Snape in OOTP when he is giving Harry Occlumency lessons - as I mentioned above. "Time and space matter in magic, Potter."

We have to keep in mind that there are rules involved with magic. Jo set those parameters deliberately because, if you give your characters no limits, then you have no story.

SF: And do you think that the thing you have the most fun with is setting yourself the rules of the magic and how far it can go?

JKR: The most important thing when you are creating a fantasy world is to set the rules – irrespective of whether you’re including a public school or not because…. a public school, a boarding school – a very important distinction. Because without it – you have no conflict; you have no tension; you have no drama – if you have given your characters limitless powers and no barriers. You have to decide first of all most importantly what they can’t do, way before you decide what they can do. Otherwise you actually have no story at all.

Hermione could not have been the one to activate the deluminator when she was not there any more than she could have cast a spell to turn Ron's hair blue while she was not there. Distance is a factor. If you want to cast a memory charm - you have to cast it on the person and be near them to do it. If you want to cast a hex or a jinx on a person, you have to be near them in order to do that. Ron is the only person who could have activated the deluminator because he was the only person near it.

There are certain things you can do from a distance, but that is limited. You could summon an object to you, but you would not be able to do anything else to that object until it got to you. You could send an object you have - or objects - to another location, but you could not do anything else to that object once it was away from you. You could send a patronus with a message. And everything requires a wand - even apparating. Time and space matter in magic and there are limits to what they could do from a distance. Ron is the only person who could have activated the deluminator because he was the only person there. The only thing Hermione could have done from a distance was summon it to her if she had thought of that.

I do not deny that Ron activated the Deluminator. However, he only partially activated it by constantly brooding on getting back. It was Hermione actually saying "Ron" that triggered the Deluminator's special feature.

As I said above, that would violate the rules of magic that Jo established. Hermione was not there so she could not have had any part in activating the deluminator. Ron was the only one there - he was the only one who could activate it.

Ron said that he was listening to the radio - not that he was trying to listen to it.

That doesn't matter because we know that he had to use his wand in order to be listening to it at all. If he was listening to Potterwatch - which is most likely since he was so fascinated by that program - then he had to use the password to tune it in.

Though I do not like the the password theory, this is a good catch, since we know that Ron did try using "Albus" to enter PotterWatch, though it does not seem as if he had tried it beforehand (since it took him until March).

Dumbledore had several names to choose from - Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore. I think that's all of them - what a long name! :lol: The password for the deluminator could have been any one of his names.

I agree that we do not have enough information to know if this is how Ron activated the deluminator. However, we do have enough information to know that it could only be something that Ron did. Hermione could not have done it because she was not there. I think this is very likely because we are shown other objects being "activated" using a password - I see this as making a certain word - or name - act like a spell. Without getting more detail regarding what Ron was doing at that moment, we can't really speculate further as to what he actually did to activate the deluminator. All we know for sure at this point is that it had to be something Ron did because nobody else was there.

While I agree, I must point out that only Harry could conquer the Imperius Curse (thus Hermione was just as susceptible to magic as Ron in this case) and Ron did not necessarily sense the Taboo on "Voldemort." He found out about the Taboo most likely from Bill, since he knew that Kingsley was almost caught by saying the name. Ron just always refrained from saying "Voldemort," and, in this case, it helped.

I agree that Ron didn't sense the Taboo - he had been told about it and knew what would happen if Voldemort's name was said.

However, Jo did show that Ron was more susceptible to magic affecting the mind with examples like his continued reaction to the Veela and the fact that he had the most trouble with the Imperius curse. Jo made it a point to emphasize the fact that Ron had more trouble with this type of thing than either Harry or Hermione did. However, I think this is only significant in regards to the fact that Ron was more strongly affected by the locket.

KBPadfoot

June 16th, 2008, 6:59 pm

Quote:
I do not deny that Ron activated the Deluminator. However, he only partially activated it by constantly brooding on getting back. It was Hermione actually saying "Ron" that triggered the Deluminator's special feature.

meesha1971
As I said above, that would violate the rules of magic that Jo established. Hermione was not there so she could not have had any part in activating the deluminator. Ron was the only one there - he was the only one who could activate it.

It's ron wanting to come back that is the main trigger. Hermione's only part was then when she said his name she allowed him to act on it.
Ron wanting to come back is integral to him actually coming back, But the name calling thing works as if switching on a GPS or SatNav because She only said Rons name once and Ron says that when he first followed the ball of light and came to the place where theyd disapperated ,the ball of light appeared again to take him to theyre next destination even though his name wasnt mantioned again.

He was able to track them because Hermione had turned on the GPS :)

crookshanks16

June 17th, 2008, 1:01 am

I actually liked Ron's deluminator return. It just seems very like something Dumbledore would do. It really makes sense if you think about it. The deluminator helps hide you and when you're lost, it helps you find your way. It isn't just something that turns lights on and off, it's deeper than that. It's almost like an untimate survior kit. I bet that it does more than what we've seen in the book. When you need something, like what Ron needed, it helps you. You just have to discover how to use it.

HedwigOwl

June 17th, 2008, 5:20 am

MrSleepyHead

June 20th, 2008, 11:55 pm

Maybe he did try beforehand- after all, the password changes with each day. It says Ron was trying for days to get the correct password; it's possible that he tried Albus on a different day, when it wasn't the correct password.
True. But one would think that Ron would have a set of passwords that he always tried first, and would then venture to try new ones. Thus, if this were the case, "Albus" would be one he had not used before.
As Snape said in OOTP - "Time and space matter in magic, Potter." Harry and Hermione were not anywhere near the deluminator so nothing they did could have activated.
Snape said directly after that, "Eye contact is often essential to Legilimency." He was referring to Legilimency, which most wizards cannot perform unless nearby. He also says that Hogwarts was guarded by enchantments to repel such attacks (though Harry's connection with Voldemort was the exception). Neither Harry, Ron, or Hermione were in Hogwarts, nor were they using Legilimency. It was an enchantment on the Deluminator, and we know of enchantments and spells that defy time and magic (Portkeys, Apparition [though this does have distant limits], Time Turners, etc.).
There are a lot of coincidences in the HP books - the trio got a lot of lucky breaks due to such coincidences.
This is true. However, you have previously defended that certain things (all of Dumbledore's actions) are not coincidences. Since you agree that there are these coincidences, all those involving Dumbledore could be as well.
It's a huge coincidence that Ron was even awake before dawn and listening to the radio - Harry noted that it was "almost dawn" when he finally woke up just before Hermione said Ron's name.
That is certainly not a coincidence. It is extremely probable that Ron, who was brooding constantly on returning, had quite a few sleepless nights and always awoke early to try to get back.
We have to keep in mind that there are rules involved with magic. Jo set those parameters deliberately because, if you give your characters no limits, then you have no story.
Yes, but we have never seen the limits of Dumbledore's power, nor the limits of time and space in the Wizarding World. Thus, we cannot assume that the Hermione triggering the Deluminator would violate the "limits."
Someone who was miles away from it would not be able to activate it.
Where is the evidence for this? Dumbledore had "prodigious magical skill." We cannot assume that he could not have put an enchantment on the Deluminator that would allow someone "miles away" to activate it.
Hermione could not have been the one to activate the deluminator when she was not there any more than she could have cast a spell to turn Ron's hair blue while she was not there.
The Deluminator is a device enchanted by Dumbledore. Turning Ron's hair blue would be a spell performed by Hermione. Those types of spells are limited by distance, but we have no evidence that the Deluminator is.
That doesn't matter because we know that he had to use his wand in order to be listening to it at all. If he was listening to Potterwatch - which is most likely since he was so fascinated by that program - then he had to use the password to tune it in.
You missed my point. I was stating that Ron's statement does not support that he was trying any passwords at that moment. He said he was listening to the radio, not trying to listen, which implies that he had already tuned into Potterwatch with the correct password.
However, we do have enough information to know that it could only be something that Ron did. Hermione could not have done it because she was not there.
I disagree. You have not supplied one situation where an enchanted object (not a spell) was limited by distance.
Jo did show that Ron was more susceptible to magic affecting the mind with examples like his continued reaction to the Veela...
I think his susceptibility to the Veela was more because he was more attracted, infatuated, and obsessed with women (Harry was not as concerned with females at that time), not because he was more susceptible to magic. :lol:
It's ron wanting to come back that is the main trigger. Hermione's only part was then when she said his name she allowed him to act on it.
Ron wanting to come back is integral to him actually coming back, But the name calling thing works as if switching on a GPS or SatNav
Exactly. That is a trigger. Hermione saying Ron's name acted just like pulling the trigger of a gun to shoot a bullet (hence the term "trigger"). Ron's continuous desire to return would be the desire to shoot the gun, and his intuition on Hermione's word was like the bullet.
As far as a "password" for the deluminator, I don't think that's likely. The wording in Dumbledore's will is very common for anyone leaving items to someone, and Dumbledore was, after all, trying to make it seem like he was leaving the trio items for sentimental reasons, i.e., remembrances of him, so as to not give Scrimgeour any clues.
I agree. In fact, I would not be surprised if Scrimgeour suspected it held a password (since Dumbledore put "in hope that he remembers me when he uses it"), and he used Dumbledore's name to try to find its secret.
I actually liked Ron's deluminator return. It just seems very like something Dumbledore would do. It really makes sense if you think about it. The deluminator helps hide you and when you're lost, it helps you find your way. It isn't just something that turns lights on and off, it's deeper than that. It's almost like an untimate survior kit. I bet that it does more than what we've seen in the book. When you need something, like what Ron needed, it helps you. You just have to discover how to use it.
I, too, very much enjoyed Ron's return (and Dumbledore's genius behind the Deluminator). The Deluminator was simple, yet complex - the exact combination we see from Dumbledore throughout the series.

meesha1971

June 21st, 2008, 1:07 am

True. But one would think that Ron would have a set of passwords that he always tried first, and would then venture to try new ones. Thus, if this were the case, "Albus" would be one he had not used before.

I never said Albus was the password so I'm not sure what the point is here. If it was activated by a password, one of Dumbledore's other names could have been the password as well.

Snape said directly after that, "Eye contact is often essential to Legilimency." He was referring to Legilimency, which most wizards cannot perform unless nearby. He also says that Hogwarts was guarded by enchantments to repel such attacks (though Harry's connection with Voldemort was the exception). Neither Harry, Ron, or Hermione were in Hogwarts, nor were they using Legilimency. It was an enchantment on the Deluminator, and we know of enchantments and spells that defy time and magic (Portkeys, Apparition [though this does have distant limits], Time Turners, etc.).

Snape specifically said that time and space matter in magic - he was not referring to Legillimency there. Eye contact was specific to Legillimency.. Hogwarts is not the only place that was guarded by protective enchantments. The Weasleys were using protective enchantments as well - including Bill and Fleur.

A portkey must be created by a person - we see this done on page. They have to have the object with them. To use a portkey, you have to touch it - a person at Hogwarts could not use a portkey located at the Burrow. Apparition is a spell you're doing on yourself so distance is not a factor except for how far you're going to travel. And there are limits on how far you can travel by apparating. Time Turners also have to be activated by the person in possession of it - Hermione had to physically turn it. All of these things fall within the limits of time and space. None of them could be activated by a person who was miles away. They can only be activated by the person who is there.

This is true. However, you have previously defended that certain things (all of Dumbledore's actions) are not coincidences. Since you agree that there are these coincidences, all those involving Dumbledore could be as well.

You've lost me there. Some things are coincidences - some things are not. For example, Dumbledore knowing that Harry and Ron were going to be in the room with the Mirror of Erised was not a coincidence. He knew they were going to be there and he waited for them. It is most likely that he used the Deluminator to listen in on their conversation and heard them talking about going to the mirror that night.

That is certainly not a coincidence. It is extremely probable that Ron, who was brooding constantly on returning, had quite a few sleepless nights and always awoke early to try to get back.

It's possible - it is still a huge coincidence that he was awake at the precise moment that Hermione said his name though.

Yes, but we have never seen the limits of Dumbledore's power, nor the limits of time and space in the Wizarding World. Thus, we cannot assume that the Hermione triggering the Deluminator would violate the "limits."

We know that would violate the limits because Hermione was not there. She would have to at least be in the same room with it to do a spell on it - just as she would have to touch a portkey to use it or physically turn the time turner to use it. Hermione's actions are irrelevant because she was not at Shell Cottage.

Where is the evidence for this? Dumbledore had "prodigious magical skill." We cannot assume that he could not have put an enchantment on the Deluminator that would allow someone "miles away" to activate it.

That would violated the limits of time and space. Hermione would have to at least be in the same room with it.

The Deluminator is a device enchanted by Dumbledore. Turning Ron's hair blue would be a spell performed by Hermione. Those types of spells are limited by distance, but we have no evidence that the Deluminator is.

The portkey in OOTP was a devicen enchanted by Dumbledore as well - they still had to touch it to use it. Dumbledore could not do anything to cause the deluminator to activate because he could not know that Ron would actually leave or - if he did leave - when he would need to. Ron is the only person who could activate the Deluminator because he was the only person there.

You missed my point. I was stating that Ron's statement does not support that he was trying any passwords at that moment. He said he was listening to the radio, not trying to listen, which implies that he had already tuned into Potterwatch with the correct password.

I didn't miss your point - you missed mine. I meant that, in finding the correct password, it is possible that Ron activated the Deluminator at the same time and didn't realize it right away.

Like I said before, we don't have enough details to figure it out exactly. The only thing we know for sure is that Ron is the only one who could activate it so it was something he did. We just don't know what Ron was doing at that time. He was legally allowed to do magic so he could have been idly casting spells on things in the room while he was listening to the radio. Ron didn't know how he activated it because Dumbledore did not give him any instructions on how to use the deluminator. Without knowing exactly what Ron was doing, we can't figure it out exactly either.

I disagree. You have not supplied one situation where an enchanted object (not a spell) was limited by distance.

No, I didn't. But you did. Portkeys, time-turners - enchanted objects limited by distance because the person has to be present to use them/activate them.

Other examples would be the dark detectors - such as a sneakoscope or a foe glass - they aren't going to activate until a threat is close by. Death Eaters were active all over England, but Harry's sneakoscope did not activate until they were right outside their tent. Time and space matter in magic.

I think his susceptibility to the Veela was more because he was more attracted, infatuated, and obsessed with women (Harry was not as concerned with females at that time), not because he was more susceptible to magic. :lol:

Actually, that is incorrect. They encounter the Veela in GOF - when Harry was actively crushing on Cho. I wouldn't say Ron was any more infatuated with women than Harry was. They're teenage boys so that's to be expected. The Veela magic didn't have anything to do with that. It was like a love potion or an entrancing enchantment. It worked regardless of attraction. Ron wasn't actually interested in Fleur - he was just affected by her Veela powers. The same as he was never interested in Romilda Vane - he was just affected by the love potion she spiked those chocolate cauldrons with.

We also see that with the Imperius curse though. Ron has more difficulty with that curse because he's more susceptible to that type of magic. That's why the locket affected him to a greater degree than it did Harry or Hermione.

Exactly. That is a trigger. Hermione saying Ron's name acted just like pulling the trigger of a gun to shoot a bullet (hence the term "trigger"). Ron's continuous desire to return would be the desire to shoot the gun, and his intuition on Hermione's word was like the bullet.

That doesn't work because Hermione wasn't there. She was too far away to be the trigger. Ron is the only person who could activate the deluminator because he was the only person near it.

crookshanks16]I actually liked Ron's deluminator return. It just seems very like something Dumbledore would do. It really makes sense if you think about it. The deluminator helps hide you and when you're lost, it helps you find your way. It isn't just something that turns lights on and off, it's deeper than that. It's almost like an untimate survior kit. I bet that it does more than what we've seen in the book. When you need something, like what Ron needed, it helps you. You just have to discover how to use it.

I agree. It really is too bad that Dumbledore did not leave Ron any instructions on how to use the deluminator. It really was an amazing device and very likely did have more functions that would have been useful to the trio. It would have been great if Ron had known how to activate all of the functions of it. Even just the eavesdropping function would have been extremely useful - they could have been keeping tabs on the Weasleys to make sure everyone was okay and keeping up with the news the entire time if Ron had only known how to activate it.