Confusion over the ending

Hi. I've read DH's ending twice, and I'm having trouble grasping a couple of things. There are two aspects in particular that confuse me, and I was wondering if anyone could clarify them. (Note: the reason I didn't put this in the "little questions" thread is that I don't really think this qualifies as a little question. :p )

First of all, when Voldemort "kills" Harry in the forest, Dumbledore explains Harry's survival by saying, "[Voldemort's] body keeps [Lily's] sacrifice alive, and while that enchantment survives, so do you..." In other words, as long as Harry's "protected" blood exists--which it does, in Voldemort's own body--Harry cannot die. So nobody can kill Harry unless Voldemort is dead. Right?

HOWEVER, Voldemort attacks Harry in the forest with the Elder Wand, of which Harry is the true master. And the Elder Wand cannot kill its own master, according to the bottom of page 745 and top of page 746. So my first question is this: was Voldemort's curse doubly ineffective there? Was Harry protected by both Lily's sacrifice and the nature of the Elder Wand?


Second, after Harry "dies" to save everyone, they are all protected by Harry's sacrifice, just like Harry is protected by Lily's sacrifice. As a result, Harry doesn't feel any pain from Voldemort's Cruciatus Curse, and Voldemort can't harm anyone else in Hogwarts. BUT when Voldemort uses the Killing Curse on Harry again, in Hogwarts, it actually rebounds and kills Voldemort. Why would only that one curse rebound, while the rest of the curses simply don't work?

It cannot have been because Harry was the Elder Wand's true master; in that case, the Killing Curse would have rebounded in the forest as well (Harry had already been the Elder Wand's master for some time). It also can't have been because Harry's and Voldemort's spells collided; if that were true, Harry would have Disarmed himself, not Voldemort.

Any ideas? I'm so confused. :sigh:

I think it's almost right to say that Harry couldn't die unless Voldemort was dead.

However, at "Kings Cross" he had the choice to return and finish Voldemort off or to "catch the next train" and go on. He had the choice to actually die at that point. Had he not wanted to finish the job, he probably would have chosen to go on.

I'm not too sure about the whole curse bit at the end. I don't have my book at the moment - foolishly lent it to a friend. I understood it that the curses hit each other and that the AK hit Voldemort. Expelliarmus didn't hit Harry in GOF either so I'm happy with that point.

Maybe the fact that it was the Elder wand helped Harry avoid the curse again this time - and that's why the wand went to his hand, even though the spells collided. I had to read it a couple of times to figure out if the spells did actually collide, but I'm still not sure about that.

was Voldemort's curse doubly ineffective there? Was Harry protected by both Lily's sacrifice and the nature of the Elder Wand?

No. Harry was saved because of the blood that was flowing in Voldemort's body. However the wand also played a part by reducing the impact and affecting Voldemort himself, who was found lying on the floor after the spell was cast.

Why would only that one curse rebound, while the rest of the curses simply don't work?

Rest of the spells were cast against others who were protected against Voldemort by Harry's sacrifice. But Voldemort himself wasn't under this protection. The Elder wand didn't work against its master and made the curse to rebound back at Voldemort who faced the full blow of the AK and died. ;)

another valid reason for harrys survival i think is that he become the master of death, having the cloak, the stone, and being the master of the wand, and thus he was given a choice to return back to life. I missed that bit about a wand not being able to kill its master. If that is so, why did voldemort even try after Harry revealed to him that he was indeed the master of the wand - he would know about that, no? The ending was a little murky there

I understand your confusion. The explanations for what happened are quite convoluted and muddled. I don't understand why as in this instance less would almost assuredly have been more.

If that is so, why did voldemort even try after Harry revealed to him that he was indeed the master of the wand - he would know about that, no?

Maybe Voldemort didn't believe him? He certainly didn't think it made a difference that Snape actually put DD out of his misery, rather than outright kill him, and he didn't seem to think that it mattered that Draco was the actual master (before Harry) because he thought he could deal with Draco later.

I'm not too sure about the whole curse bit at the end. I don't have my book at the moment - foolishly lent it to a friend. I understood it that the curses hit each other and that the AK hit Voldemort. Expelliarmus didn't hit Harry in GOF either so I'm happy with that point.

The reason Expelliarmus and Avada Kedavra didn't have any effect in GoF was that Voldemort and Harry were using the twin-core wands. But in this case, Voldemort had the Elder Wand, and Harry had Malfoy's, so it was completely different.

No. Harry was saved because of the blood that was flowing in Voldemort's body. However the wand also played a part by reducing the impact and affecting Voldemort himself, who was found lying on the floor after the spell was cast.

Okay, that makes sense. I suppose the Elder Wand is the reason Harry didn't end up with another scar and another part of Voldemort inside him.

Rest of the spells were cast against others who were protected against Voldemort by Harry's sacrifice. But Voldemort himself wasn't under this protection. The Elder wand didn't work against its master and made the curse to rebound back at Voldemort who faced the full blow of the AK and died. ;)

Right, but that's just it: if it rebounds there, why doesn't it rebound in the forest? Harry was the master of the Elder Wand in both instances.

another valid reason for harrys survival i think is that he become the master of death, having the cloak, the stone, and being the master of the wand, and thus he was given a choice to return back to life. I missed that bit about a wand not being able to kill its master. If that is so, why did voldemort even try after Harry revealed to him that he was indeed the master of the wand - he would know about that, no? The ending was a little murky there

The part about the Elder Wand not being able to kill its master was in the narration itself, not in any dialog. I think that's why Voldemort still attacked.

It cannot have been because Harry was the Elder Wand's true master; in that case, the Killing Curse would have rebounded in the forest as well (Harry had already been the Elder Wand's master for some time). It also can't have been because Harry's and Voldemort's spells collided; if that were true, Harry would have Disarmed himself, not Voldemort.
Harry's sacrifice could be part of his protection later, but I wonder if self-defense enters into the equation. The Elder Wand doesn't stop the first time because Harry wants the spell to be cast. In the battle scene, his "expelliarmus" makes it clear that he is no longer taking things lying down and the Elder Wand responds in kind.

Harry's sacrifice could be part of his protection later, but I wonder if self-defense enters into the equation. The Elder Wand doesn't stop the first time because Harry wants the spell to be cast. In the battle scene, his "expelliarmus" makes it clear that he is no longer taking things lying down and the Elder Wand responds in kind.

Aha! That explains it! You're a genius. :tu:

I didn't think it could be so simple...

, why doesn't it rebound in the forest?

Because Harry didn't use his wand to defend himself. The reason why the AK had rebounded in the Great Hall was because Harry had used his wand to defend himself. But Harry didn't use the wand to defend himself in the forest, so the wand had no choice but to act.

Its not like the protection Lily had given him. Wands won't work against the master if the master doesn't want them to work, but if the master is ready to accept the curse that the wand is about to place on him, then the wand has to act. Which was the case in the forest. ;)

Second, after Harry "dies" to save everyone, they are all protected by Harry's sacrifice, just like Harry is protected by Lily's sacrifice. As a result, Harry doesn't feel any pain from Voldemort's Cruciatus Curse, and Voldemort can't harm anyone else in Hogwarts. BUT when Voldemort uses the Killing Curse on Harry again, in Hogwarts, it actually rebounds and kills Voldemort. Why would only that one curse rebound, while the rest of the curses simply don't work?

It cannot have been because Harry was the Elder Wand's true master; in that case, the Killing Curse would have rebounded in the forest as well (Harry had already been the Elder Wand's master for some time). It also can't have been because Harry's and Voldemort's spells collided; if that were true, Harry would have Disarmed himself, not Voldemort.

Any ideas? I'm so confused. :sigh:
I think the spell the Elder Wand throws is just as powerful no matter who it's aimed at - it's only ineffective if it hits the person who is considered the "master" of that wand. (i.e - if Harry casts a spell at Draco, and the spell misses and bounces off a mirror and hits Ron, Ron will feel the brunt of the spell. But if it bounces and hits Harry, he won't feel much of anythign because he is the master of his own wand.)

In this case, the spell bounced because it hit Harry's Expelliarmus spell and rebounded back towards Voldemort who felt the full force of it because he wasn't the "master" of the wand he had been using.

I've been thinking the exact same thing. Harry is going willingly to his death. Since he is the master of the wand and accepting his death freely, the wand respects his wishes. If there had been the slightest doubt, I think the wand would have rebounded on Voldemort and screwed everything up.

Ok, for your first point. Yes, Lily's love runs throught Voldmeort and Harry, because Voldemort took Harry's blood in GOF which means the protection runs in them both, therefore non of them could kill each other. However, you are right. The edler wand would not have killed Harry because it was attacking the rightful owner which was Harry. However it would hurt Voldemort because Voldemort wasn't the rightful owner. Harry contained a prt of Voldemort's soul and that was another horcrux and that one was apparently as someone put ti to me, joined between them both as not two but one horcrux, the seventh. So when the AK curse hit Harry, it would not hurt Harry (would not hurt the rightful owner) but instead it atracked the horcrux and part of Voldemort's soul that was in his body, therefore leaving Harry's soul whole and the horcrux gone. Harry was protected by the elder wand and the protection of Lily, as neither of them could die.

Your second point: yes Harry protected everyne by letting himself die to protect them all, a passion of love therefore they were all protected by the bond Lily gave Harry. Harry had a choice to die, Dumbledore told him, he wasn't quite dead. Harry had a choice to go back, or to go on. Harry wouldn't have gon on, he wouldn't be able to rest until he knew Voldemort was dead, and the loved ones were safe, so naturally as Hsrry's instincts are, he went back.
When they are in the great hall, Voldmeort once again uses the AK curse on Harry at the same time as Harry uses Expelliamus on Voldemort. The spells collide, because the elder wand will not harm Harry as it's rightful owner the curse is rebounded back to voldemort as it hits the expelliamus curse. At the same time, the expelliamus curse knocks the wand from Voldemort, that Harry of course catches. It didn't work in the GOF because they wer using their twn cores in their wands. Harry here had Draco's wand as his was snapped, Voldmeort the Elder wand, therefore the effect was completely different.

Originally Posted by mysterious
No. Harry was saved because of the blood that was flowing in Voldemort's body. However the wand also played a part by reducing the impact and affecting Voldemort himself, who was found lying on the floor after the spell was cast.


I think that at the point where Voldemort "kills" Harry, he could have killed himself as well, just like they both passed out and Harry was in King's Cross and Voldemort was somewhere(I don't really understand if voldemort was really the kid under the chair) It was Harry decision to come back and fight, but I think that if he had "gone on" Voldemort would have "gone on" too because of their blood bond. I can't really explain anything about the wand, thats all very counfusing to me. Thats just my theory...

Harry's sacrifice could be part of his protection later, but I wonder if self-defense enters into the equation. The Elder Wand doesn't stop the first time because Harry wants the spell to be cast. In the battle scene, his "expelliarmus" makes it clear that he is no longer taking things lying down and the Elder Wand responds in kind.

Good explanation!

Voldemort would have "gone on" too because of their blood bond. I can't really explain anything about the wand, thats all very counfusing to me. Thats just my theory...

I don't think Voldemort would have gone on because he still had one more horcrux (Nagini) and whatever's left in his own body anchoring him to earth. If Harry hadn't returned, and Neville had killed Nagini and then someone had attacked Voldemort, he would still have died.

You guys are awesome. Thanks for answering so quickly, everyone. :)

I don't think Voldemort would have gone on because he still had one more horcrux (Nagini) and whatever's left in his own body anchoring him to earth. If Harry hadn't returned, and Neville had killed Nagini and then someone had attacked Voldemort, he would still have died.

Good point I didnt think about Nagini, but I still think atleast Voldemort's human body would have died if Harry died, leaving Nagini the Horcrux to bring back Voldemort in a new body.

I think that at the point where Voldemort "kills" Harry, he could have killed himself as well, just like they both passed out and Harry was in King's Cross and Voldemort was somewhere(I don't really understand if voldemort was really the kid under the chair) It was Harry decision to come back and fight, but I think that if he had "gone on" Voldemort would have "gone on" too because of their blood bond. I can't really explain anything about the wand, thats all very counfusing to me. Thats just my theory...

Oh, no the kid under the chair was how Voldemort would become after he would die, but in the forest Voldemort wasn't killed, for the curse didn't rebound, only it caused some harm to him for forcing the wand to work against its master. ;)

Right, but that's just it: if it rebounds there, why doesn't it rebound in the forest? Harry was the master of the Elder Wand in both instances.

Sorry if someone already said this, I have not read all the posts, but in comment to this, I believe that it's because at the time of the initial curse, VM's soul was in Harry. I think that would maybe somehow have allowed the curse to get through initially. Thoughts?

Harry didn't die from the killing curse in the forest because of the bond formed by Lily's sacrifice - I think we understand that. Voldemort kept that bond alive by making Harry a Horcrux when he tried to kill him.

The elder wand won't work against it's master wielding a wand that he/she has won by taking. Harry won Draco's wand and by rights, is also the master of the Elder wand. That's why the AK curse rebounded on Riddle. If Draco never lost his wand and was fighting Riddle, the same thing would have happened.

There is also the Deathly Hallows to consider. Harry either had possesion of or was the true master of all three. He physically had the stone and cloak, and was the master of the wand even if he didn't have it on him. Harry therefore mastered death. As said earlier, Harry could have chosen to die in the Kings Cross scene in his head, but decided to fight instead. I think his death would have created a less effective defence by the survivors at Hogwarts - assuming they were protected from LV (which I thought would have needed physical contact to work), they would not have been protected from the DEs individually. The Surviors knew LV and DEwere on the back foot when Harry disappeared and Neville killed Nagini, and I think that had more to do with their safety than Harry dying for them.

There is also the whole "what does Harry have that Lv doesn't" thing, and Lv being able to use the Elder wand but not actually master it to its full power, for the same reason Lucius' wand didn't work for him effectively - the wands didn't choose the wizard. The curses would not have been at full strength because LV was forcing the wand to do his bidding, and was weakened further by Harry being the true master of the Elder wand, hence the rebound off Harry's spell.

I didn't connect LV with the baby under the chair. I'll need to re-read that bit! Too much detail too quickly in the climax!

"I didn't connect LV with the baby under the chair. "

the baby under the chair represented what voldemort really is. what's left of his broken soul... Dumbledore tells Harry that nothing can be done for the "baby." and that is true, because remember Harry asked to gave some remorse... becasue thats the only way to reverse it. he didn't have any. also in GOP before Voldemort gets his body all he is is a "baby"

just my theory on what was actually said in the book

I agree with Rhaiyne. The wand was not able to kill Harry because he was the true master, but it was able to kill the piece of Voldermort, his soul, that resided in Harry.

Even if Voldemort has been using a different wand - his own wand - would he still not have been able to kill Harry because as long as Voldemort lives Lily's protection still runs through his veins?

So Voldemort would never have been able to kill Harry.

What if Voldemort had used his own wand in the forest? Would Harry's soul have been affected? Was his soul only not harmed because it was HIS wand that was used?

Ok, I re-read part of the ending. Draco was the master of the Elder Wand because he defeated DD, not Snape, cause DD wanted Snape to kill him. And the Elder Wand knew that it's owner was disarmed (Harry disarmed Draco) so it recognized Harry as it's true master, therfore the Elder wand was useless against Harry. Harry's Expelliarmus hit Voldy after Voldy's AK rebounded away from it's wand's master, back at Voldy. Voldy died and the Elder Wand flew into the air and was caught by Harry.

The curse wasn't killing Harry the first time. It was killing the horcrux inside Harry while the second one was directly going to kill Harry, not a hocrux. That is why it rebounded on the second time and not the first time.

Was Harry not killed in the forest because; A) his mothers protected resided in his blood in Voldemort or B) because the Elder Wand refused to kill it's master and so only destroyed the piece of Voldemort's soul and not Harry's soul?

Ok, I re-read part of the ending. Draco was the master of the Elder Wand because he defeated DD, not Snape, cause DD wanted Snape to kill him. And the Elder Wand knew that it's owner was disarmed (Harry disarmed Draco) so it recognized Harry as it's true master, therfore the Elder wand was useless against Harry. Harry's Expelliarmus hit Voldy after Voldy's AK rebounded away from it's wand's master, back at Voldy. Voldy died and the Elder Wand flew into the air and was caught by Harry.

So to become the new master of the Elder Wand, you don't really have to kill the old one? Just disarm them? I'm a little confused...

It cannot have been because Harry was the Elder Wand's true master; in that case, the Killing Curse would have rebounded in the forest as well (Harry had already been the Elder Wand's master for some time). It also can't have been because Harry's and Voldemort's spells collided; if that were true, Harry would have Disarmed himself, not Voldemort.

Any ideas? I'm so confused. :sigh:

It was because Harry was the wand's true master. The reason LV's curse hit Harry in the forest was because Harry still had a piece of Voldermort in him. It was not Harry the Elder Wand's curse hit, it was the fragment of Voldermort's soul inside him. I believe, had Harry not had the horocrux inside him the curse would have rebounded on Voldermort like in the final confrontation.

I know the ending is perfectly explainable if you read and re-read carefully and mull it over in your head a few times. But I'm just curious to know if anyone else thought that the inclusion of the Elder Wand and the confusion caused by it (in addition to that caused by the Harry-Voldemort connection) could've/should've been avoided?

So confusing! Here's my theory on it.

First, I beleive that the Crucio did not cause pain because it was cast by the elder Wand at its true owner, not because of Harry's sacrifice. I beleive that that protection covered everyone else and not himself.

I've kind been using what we see with the Crucio as a model for what happened with the AK in the forest - I feel that the spell did what it was commanded to do by Voldemort so long as it caused no harm, and like the Crucio *appeared* to work - but was ineffective at actually doing damage. Therefore I feel that it did free both Harry's soul (as well as the fragment) from Harry's body, but did not harm the body.

I feel that Lily's protection factored in in terms of doing exactly what Dumbledore says in Kings Cross, "tethered" Harry to life. So, to me, that means his soul was still connected to the body, which was still alive, thanks to the elder Wand.

Lastly I feel that the Hallows united allowed Harry to choose the time of his own death - not only his sacrifice but his choice to return.

I do really like the idea that the AK "killed" the fragment without killing harry, because of the Elder Wand, but i have a problem with it in terms of mechanics and what "killing" means. Everyone seems to think that the AK "destroyed" the fragment, but why would it?

Think about it. the AK cannot "destroy" souls or harm them in any way. It can only free them, though it might be able to kill bodies. If it was capable of "destroying" souls, well what about Harry's parents, Cedric, and all of LV's other victims? Were those souls "destroyed"? No, they were just freed, and eventually went "on", because we see them!

So, why would it "destroy" or "kill" this one fragment, when it doesn't "destroy" anyone else's souls? No, I feel that the worst it can do to a soul is free it from the body. And I beleive that that is all it did to the fragment - and that we see the fragment in Kings Cross with Harry and dumbledore.

So confusing! Here's my theory on it.


I do really like the idea that the AK "killed" the fragment without killing harry, because of the Elder Wand, but i have a problem with it in terms of mechanics and what "killing" means. Everyone seems to think that the AK "destroyed" the fragment, but why would it?

Think about it. the AK cannot "destroy" souls or harm them in any way. It can only free them, though it might be able to kill bodies. If it was capable of "destroying" souls, well what about Harry's parents, Cedric, and all of LV's other victims? Were those souls "destroyed"? No, they were just freed, and eventually went "on", because we see them!

So, why would it "destroy" or "kill" this one fragment, when it doesn't "destroy" anyone else's souls? No, I feel that the worst it can do to a soul is free it from the body. And I beleive that that is all it did to the fragment - and that we see the fragment in Kings Cross with Harry and dumbledore.

You're forgetting the explanation of Horocrux's. It's stated that if you destroy a horocrux, it's simply gone. That's the danger of using one, because that piece of soul can never "move on" the way a normal soul would. That's why the AK could destroy the horocrux, because a horocrux really isn't a conventional soul. The other pieces of soul in the other horocrux's didn't move on either, they were simply destroyed.

The Elder Wand AK released Voldemort's soul but not Harry's as if it had released Harry's soul Harry would died and the wand wouldn't do that as Harry is its master.

But then where does the blood come in? Surely Harry would still be tethered to Earth without the blood thing because the Elder Wand didn't release his soul?

Aaaaah!

You're forgetting the explanation of Horocrux's. It's stated that if you destroy a horocrux, it's simply gone. That's the danger of using one, because that piece of soul can never "move on" the way a normal soul would. That's why the AK could destroy the horocrux, because a horocrux really isn't a conventional soul. The other pieces of soul in the other horocrux's didn't move on either, they were simply destroyed.

I actually hadn't forgot that, because she didn't say it was "destroyed" - she says the Horcruxes can be "destroyed" but not so for the fragments. She only says they "cannot exist" without the container. This is a fine point, not to mention semantic, but semantics count with Rowling and as I see it, you "destroy" the container, and the fragment will just "fade out" or "die" or whatever.

Nowhere did I see they couldn't "move on" like a normal soul - though I suspect that you are not far off on that, I have never seen anything to back that up - it seems a conclusion drawn rather than something actually stated.

So to my mind, the pathetic child was the fragment, 'going out of existance" or "dying" at Kings Cross. "Beyond help" is something you say while referring to the dying, so that seems to reaffirm that for me. And the place - as an "inbetween" place, a transitional place - seems to be a place somewhat out of existance.

But you do make an interesting point that I hadnt considered - that not being conventional souls, they may not react as conventional souls would - and you certainly could be right - but I still prefer my own theory. :P

It is simplist, I think, to assume Harry's soul and the fragment both went to this "waystation", where they met Dumbledore's soul, and Harry's soul was given the choice to return to its body. I think that we saw Harry's soul was strongly hinted in by his being "naked and free from flaw" and Dumbledore's statement that Harry's soul is now "entirely his own".

To me, if you go to anything else, you run into problems with how the dumbledore we saw could know anything the avatar we saw knew. If was just some sort of alternate reality or just in Harry's head, its a problem in terms of the information Harry acquired there. Dumbledores soul would certainly know that stuff, but Idk about anything else.

And a few words on "in harry's head" versus reality - IMO we are talking about consciousness and identity. What made Vapormort different from any of his soul fragments? It contained his consciousness, so one could argue that the consciousness and identity are part of one's soul.

In the forest scene when Dumbledore is explaining how Harry is not dead he enver mentiones the Elder Wand.
Are we to beleive that the Elder Wand had no part to play in Harry's survival and that in fact it was all due to the blood thing?

What if Voldemort hadn't taken Harry's blood?
Would the Elder Wand still have caused Harry to die then?

This is the only part of the book that actually made me a little angry at JKR. You'd have thought that, being the climactic end of the series, that she or her editors would have noticed that it was confusing!

We shouldn't have to make theories about the ultimate ending, IMO.

This is the only part of the book that actually made me a little angry at JKR. You'd have thought that, being the climactic end of the series, that she or her editors would have noticed that it was confusing!

We shouldn't have to make theories about the ultimate ending, IMO.

LOL! Amen to that!

I agree with whoever said, she probably did the Kings Cross a bit vague, so we could interpret it however we want - but I think she might have explained exactly how Lilys blood, the elder wand and the Hallows all figured intot things while still leaving *what* or *where* Kings Cross vague and stuff.

Dumbledore said that so long as Harry's blood flowed in Voldemort's body, Harry could not be killed. He even described it as working sort of like a Horcrux. So that's why Harry survived the AK in the forest. But it did throw him into a "mostly dead" state so that he was in the afterlife, at least a limbo-like place, with Dumbledore, and he could have chosen to go on had he wanted to.

ETA: Harry's survival in the forest did not have to do with him possessing all three Hallows at once. Before he was AK'd he dropped the ring. He had the cloak on him, he was the true master of the wand but did not possess it, and he did not have the ring, it was laying on the forest floor. So at best he had two of the three Hallows, assuming that being the master of the wand was enough. He only had physical possession of the cloak.

Harry's death (even if he was only mostly dead) at the AK was essential to your second question. Harry's sacrifice did in fact protect everyone from Voldemort. But Voldemort wasn't protected from Voldemort, so the AK was able to kill him in the end. The AK rebounded on Voldemort because Harry expelliarmused it. That had nothing to do with wands or sacrifices or blood or protection; that was successful spell-casting.

Voldemort's first attack: I think that didn't kill Harry because like many have said Lily's protection still existed because of the blood Voldemort had taken in GoF from Harry. I also agree that it had something to do with Harry owning all 3 Deathly Hallows at that time - but more importantly in the Forbidden Forest, Harry confronted Voldemort without a wand, he was willing to accept death, no wand in hand, no duel, no rebound of the curse.

I suppose you can think of it as the Elder Wand knows the position of its Master (Harry) and it would understand that its Master hadn't lost. I think a combo of the Deathly Hallows and Lily's protection, plus Harry's acceptance is why the Elder Wand didn't kill its owner or rebound on Voldemort and instead only killed the fragment of Voldemort's soul that was parasitically attached. Wasn't Voldemort was brought to his knees as well and refused help up.

Back in Hogwart's at their 2nd encounter, now Harry's ready to duel. Harry knows that all the Horcruxes are destroyed, Voldemorte is mortal and Harry knows that he is still the true Master of the Elder Wand and he is the master of Draco's wand - and you have two wands owned by the same Master fighting one another.

Voldemort didn't know Harry was a Horcrux - his fatal mistake.

BTW - doesn't this mean that Harry thrice defied death by the immediate hand of Voldemort? Or actually it's 4x (infant, GoF and 2x in DH)

Dumbledore said that so long as Harry's blood flowed in Voldemort's body, Harry could not be killed. He even described it as working sort of like a Horcrux. So that's why Harry survived the AK in the forest. But it did throw him into a "mostly dead" state so that he was in the afterlife, at least a limbo-like place, with Dumbledore, and he could have chosen to go on had he wanted to.

I still don't understand this bit...

A Horcrux is an item that possess's a bit of someone's soul, yes? What does blood have to do with it? How would Voldemort's possession of some of Harry's blood save Harry's life?

I still don't understand this bit...

A Horcrux is an item that possess's a bit of someone's soul, yes? What does blood have to do with it? How would Voldemort's possession of some of Harry's blood save Harry's life?


Well, I guess to understand it (which I don't entirely) you have to have thought about what exactly a horcrux does. I have always thought that it "anchors" or "tethers" a "main" soul to the "earthly plane". When we used to discuss it, one of the best metaphors I read (and apologies for not knowing who originated this) is like a hot air balloon - where there are ropes which hold a floating thing to the ground.

So in this sense, Voldemort's main soul was "held" on the earthly plane, so when he lost his body he became 'less than the meanest ghost".

The similarity to Lily's protection seems to be with Dumbledore's use of the term "tether", so it seems like it might have done a similar thing.

The difference is, he said "tethered to life" and not "tethered to the earthly plane". So, where the Horcrux kept the soul on earth, with no stops at any waystations, this seems to have allowed to soul to wander, but acted as a connection between Harry's soul and perhaps Harry's body, where a spark of life might still have been. Or, something like that.

So I pictured it as something like "Harry's soul would stay attached to his body (by a tether) so long as Lily's sacrifice 'lived' in voldemort"

I could be wrong, but that is the best I can make of it.

The first time Voldie hit Harry with AK, it destroyed the part of Voldemorts soul which was inside Harry (The Harry is a horcrux theory as correct)

Because Voldemort was not the rightful owner of the Elder Wand, the killing curse hit the part of his soul inside Harry . Killing it. Then, the second time, it tried to kill Harry himself. In which he simply rebounded it and it killed voldie.

It cannot have been because Harry was the Elder Wand's true master; in that case, the Killing Curse would have rebounded in the forest as well (Harry had already been the Elder Wand's master for some time). It also can't have been because Harry's and Voldemort's spells collided; if that were true, Harry would have Disarmed himself, not Voldemort.

Any ideas? I'm so confused. :sigh:

I'm going to go back and read this entire thread (I'm sure someone has said this already) but it would seem to me that the first time the curse didn't rebound, Voldemort was reacting to part of his soul being destroyed.

The second time, since Harry survived, I guess the Elder Wand is his and therefore the killing curse doesn't affect him?

Okay, that doesn't make sense :huh:

Reading the thread now...

Argh, I still can't make the connection. Lily's sacrifice went from protecting Harry from harm to keeping him alive and I still can't work out how. :blush:

I'm not sure why the Elder Wand affected LV so. Perhaps the it was the anger at the wand at being used on its master. Maybe it was just the sheer power of the thing. Or perhaps the closer he gets to the end, the more he can sense his soul fragments, even if he doesn't see it for what it is.

Argh, I still can't make the connection. Lily's sacrifice went from protecting Harry from harm to keeping him alive and I still can't work out how. :blush:
Like someone said, it's not a Horcrux exactly, but it's something similar. A piece of Harry (blood) resides in someone else and he can't die while that piece lives, just like LV can't die with a piece of his soul in someone else. It's not the same, but I can see the parallels. And I can buy that posessing all of the Deathly Hallows doesn't hurt matters in the least.

I still think the Elder Wand would have killed him if he was not a Horcrux and that is what he desired. It's not up to the wand to decide what's best for the master - that is entirely up to Harry. Of course, if he weren't a Horcrux, that sacrifice would never have happend. And I imagine any other wand would have destroyed the bit of LV's soul in Harry, all that mattered was that the Killing Curse was fired by LV and that Harry not resist.

As for later, the book does specifically say that the wand won't attack Harry, but I think that's only due to his resistance. I also agree that his sacrifice only protected everyone else - Lily's didn't save her and Harry's didn't save him.

Does anyone else think that DH could have used another chapter between the last chapter and the epilogue? I just felt like I was reading the book and, bam, I've finished the story. I have liked the way all other other books have had a chapter almost entirely devoted to winding down the story, thought it is usually in the context of Harry going back to live at Privet Drive. In this instance though, I felt robbed of the grief we should feel for the characters who die at the battle of Hogwarts and especially robbed of seeing Harry and Ginny's relationship truly begin without any interference. I mean, Rowling spent 6 books building up Harry and Ginny. Everything in those last few pages felt rushed to me, and I think could have been better explained given the time for the school as a whole to reflect on what had happened, at a funeral or gathering of some sort the next day. That's where things like Kingsly being Minister of Magic and Fred's funeral could have been revealed and given would give the reader time to celebrate and grieve. It would have also paralled the other 6 books where there is that sense of winding down the story. I would have liked a little more information in the epilogue, but I think the magic of the 19 years later segment is that Rowling managed to write a fresh epilogue that didn't feel like she was trying to explain everything that happened in 19 years. I would keep the epilogue the same, but I thought it needed that one short chapter to round out the end of the book. Thoughts?

Maybe Harry wasn't affected by "Crucio!", like he was the Avada Kadavra curse, because the Cruciatus curse is a spell. I really don't know. I'm not a Witch. But he can be shielded from the effects of the cruciatus, while Avada Kadavra is a killing curse, and there is no getting around it, hence why it bounced back to Lord Voldemort. Just a guess.

Like someone said, it's not a Horcrux exactly, but it's something similar. A piece of Harry (blood) resides in someone else and he can't die while that piece lives, just like LV can't die with a piece of his soul in someone else. It's not the same, but I can see the parallels. And I can buy that posessing all of the Deathly Hallows doesn't hurt matters in the least.

That's the part I don't get, though. Why did his blood cause such a thing to happen? I can see why one's soul would do such a thing but blood?

He could have very well be protected by both. I like the final duel when Harry is sitting there pretty much mocking Voldemort, and calling him tom. was brilliant.

That's the part I don't get, though. Why did his blood cause such a thing to happen? I can see why one's soul would do such a thing but blood?
Normal blood, no. But Lily's protection in his blood and skin has been a recurring theme from SS right on through. If that blood can make it impossible for him to touch Harry, why not also make it impossible to kill Harry once he takes on some of it?

Argh, I still can't make the connection. Lily's sacrifice went from protecting Harry from harm to keeping him alive and I still can't work out how. :blush:

I think for any of us to understand it fully, we' d have to understand what exactly that ancient magic was and how it functioned, as well as how exactly the Avada Kedavra curse works to kill people.

So no one can really say "for sure" how it works, we can just guess.

Simplistically speaking, it could be as simple as, "Harrys enchanted blood "lives" in LV, and so a "spark of harry" would remain, and be used as a "tool" to come back.

If that blood can make it impossible for him to touch Harry, why not also make it impossible to kill Harry once he takes on some of it?

I'm wondering the opposite, though. :lol:

"It protected Harry from harm until Voldemort regenerated his body using Harry's blood so why did it keep him from death?"

I know the explanation, I just can't help but try and work it out...

Why did the AK in the forest affect Voldemort? It didn't rebound, or else Voldemort would've been ripped from his body. What happened to him? Did he feel the loss of a horcrux or what?

Okay, I'll try and explain why Harry didn't die because of his blood being in LV (I'm hoping this will help me explain it to myself as well, I don't get it! :lol:)

So Harry's enchanted blood - an enchantment which means Voldy can't hurt him - lives in Harry, as well as in LV. When the AK is fired, the Elder wand responds correctly because Harry wishes it to do so, ie both the piece of horcrux and Harry's soul die and move on.

BUT - because Harry's magical blood is still alive in LV, his body isn't really dead. Er.. so.. but an AK rips a body from soul, so (aha!) as long as you can't finish off the body, the soul won't go away.

I get it, finally! *tears of joy*

Here we go another time: An AK is supposed to rip soul from body. But let's assume that the life in the body has to be completely extinguished before the soul can be released. Since Harry's magical blood still lives on in LV, Harry's lifeforce in his body has not been extinguished. Harry's body is still alive. If Harry's body is still alive, the soul cannot leave. Harry here had the choice. It was all up to him. If he wanted to die, his lifeforce would have been extinguished. But he could also move his soul back from "King's Cross" to his living body.

So when Voldy fired the AK, Harry's body was still alive, and the soul moved to King's cross and then it was all up to Harry. Get it now?

I still don't get why Voldy was on the ground though... :hmm:

this is interesting! i wonder if all the folks who died, ie. fred, sirius, lupin, etc...all ended up at kings cross or i guess their own version of it? maybe kings cross meant a lot to harry cos it was where he would go to what he considered was his true home...

The Killing Curse rebounded cuz it hit Harry full on, but the protection from the blood bond, and the shield generated from the love and self-sacrifice just protected Harry, so it bounced back. Answering your question why Crucio didnt rebound, Im guessing that since Crucio doesnt fire a beam or a projectile there wasnt anything to bounce back, Crucio is more of like a curse that depends on the willingness of the user's mind. Harry just absorbed it like a sponge.

BUT - because Harry's magical blood is still alive in LV, his body isn't really dead. Er.. so.. but an AK rips a body from soul, so (aha!) as long as you can't finish off the body, the soul won't go away.

But...Voldemort's soul existed without a body and the victim of a Dementor's Kiss lives without a soul so it can go either way... I'm confusing myself, really, I am. I had a better train of thought than that just ten minutes ago but left to get a bottle of water and, when I came back, my train had left without me. :(

You have to disarm the caster to gain control of the Elder Wand but it is undefeatable the wand itself. No single spell can defeat the Elder Wands counter spell. So Dumbledore was defeated with the Elder Wand by Draco due to Dumbledore not being able to use the wand to counter his spell as he was already using it to protect Harry.

Therefore the Elder Wand can not cast two spells at once and hence can be disarmed while being used to do something else. This is how the Elder Wand can be taken from someone and perhaps the only way. In other words a direct defence or attack while using the Elder Wand can never be beaten and hence Harry defeats Voldemorts AK. Now if Harry was abused and someone was behind Harry when he cast that final spell using the Elder Wand and they tried to disarm or kill Harry as Voldemort cast the AK then Harry would of either died or had the wand thrown from his hands because the wizard can not cast two spells at the same time to protect themselves.

I agree 100%. You explain it very well and I do feel the same. There should be a chapter before the epilogue to celebrate the end of the war, and to grieve the deaths.

Exactly what I thought mate, and I think the above posters have summed it up very well.

FWIW, I think I'm one of the few people who loved the Epilogue, but another couple of chapters showing how Hogwarts and the Wizarding World started trying to go back to normal would have been brilliant. It did seem to end very suddenly.

What I thought was weird was how after Voldemort was defeated, it wasn't at the end of the chapter, it was like in the middle, and the next paragraph was talking about what was going to happen, and I though there should've been a gap there, and then some more explanation before the epilogue.

Yeah, I agree. I would've preferred a slightly longer epilogue.

I also would have liked a chapter between the last and the epilouge.

I agree 100%. You explain it very well and I do feel the same. There should be a chapter before the epilogue to celebrate the end of the war, and to grieve the deaths.

Agreed and a whole real chapter lengthed chapter for the Epilogue, with more details on everyone and the Wizarding World during the 19 years thereafter!

yes your'e right, we weren't given a chance to grieve or celebrate the end of Voldemort and the loved ones. I don't mind the epilogue actually it just shows who the main characters were and the ineterest most people had in them...Neville, Harry, Ginny, Ron, Hermione, Draco and their children.

An entire chapter would be good, showing the mourning for the fallen and the celebrating for the end of the war would be awesome, I wanted to see more of the relationships, and how they turned out, even though I can see that in the epilogue, a chapter devoted to that would be nice too.

But...Voldemort's soul existed without a body and the victim of a Dementor's Kiss lives without a soul so it can go either way...

Voldemort's body was finished off. The soul remained because of his horcruxes.
I guess that's the dementor's special power? That they are the only way a soul can be sucked out of a still living body.

In that additional chapter, I'd be particularly interested to see the development of Harry's feelings towards Snape, now that he knows the whole story.
He had been so sure Snape was evil, then it should've been be such a shock to discover the truth, and how Dumbledore was right all along about Snape. Why has Jo been so quiet about it? The only clue we have is the few lines in the epilogue, when Harrys talks to his son "Albus Severus". I feel frustrated.
I'm quite sure this belongs to another thread though, I'll go and search it.

i guess it would have been nice, but i think it is fine as it is. It isn't giving us too much detail of what happened so that everyone could get back to normal, which i like as it keeps hte sotry alive still, we can still theorize about it.

I agree, I think a funeral for everyone would have been a nice thing. Having all the coffins laid out on the Hogwarts grounds, Harry wlaking by each one and remembering how brillliant they are, remembering all the times he's laughed with them, and the wonderful memories of them. OR, to be less depressing, they could have had the marriage of Harry and Ginny, the birth of their first kid, or the first Christmas together with chidlren roaming around. I think another chapter woudl ahve been nice, either a few days after the battle chapter or a 5 years later chapter.

I liked the ending, but I do feel as though it’s lacking in something. We’re given this character that we don’t know – we don’t know adult Harry, we only know teenage Harry. Personally, I would have been fine if the story had ended at Hogwarts or something, with Harry thinking, “he knew everything would be OK from now on”, or something along the lines of that. I admit that I like seeing everyone as adults, and seeing the second generation, but I feel kind of disconnected from Harry.

Why did the AK in the forest affect Voldemort? It didn't rebound, or else Voldemort would've been ripped from his body. What happened to him? Did he feel the loss of a horcrux or what?

Okay, I'll try and explain why Harry didn't die because of his blood being in LV (I'm hoping this will help me explain it to myself as well, I don't get it! :lol:)

So Harry's enchanted blood - an enchantment which means Voldy can't hurt him - lives in Harry, as well as in LV. When the AK is fired, the Elder wand responds correctly because Harry wishes it to do so, ie both the piece of horcrux and Harry's soul die and move on.

BUT - because Harry's magical blood is still alive in LV, his body isn't really dead. Er.. so.. but an AK rips a body from soul, so (aha!) as long as you can't finish off the body, the soul won't go away.

I get it, finally! *tears of joy*

Here we go another time: An AK is supposed to rip soul from body. But let's assume that the life in the body has to be completely extinguished before the soul can be released. Since Harry's magical blood still lives on in LV, Harry's lifeforce in his body has not been extinguished. Harry's body is still alive. If Harry's body is still alive, the soul cannot leave. Harry here had the choice. It was all up to him. If he wanted to die, his lifeforce would have been extinguished. But he could also move his soul back from "King's Cross" to his living body.

So when Voldy fired the AK, Harry's body was still alive, and the soul moved to King's cross and then it was all up to Harry. Get it now?

I still don't get why Voldy was on the ground though... :hmm:

I did think about this too, but it stumped me because it cannot explain why Harry survived when he was a baby! Lily Potter was dead, with no more blood flowing through he veins, yet the enchantment still worked!

I was wondering perhaps Lily/Harry's blood residing in a person actually causes the AK to rebound off the person? Regardless of whether the person is Harry Potter, Aunt Petunia or LV?

This would explain why Dumbledore said, ‘Your blood in his veins, Harry, Lily’s protection inside both of you! He tethered you to life while he lives!’ to which Harry replied ‘I live… while he lives?’ Later, Dumbledore added, ‘his body keeps her sacrifice alive, and while that enchantment survives, so do you and so does Voldemort’s one last hope for himself.’

It’s very confusing. Here Dumbledore seems to be implying that Lily’s blood residing in Voldemort and protecting him, explains why Harry is alive, even though he also seems to having the blood residing in your body will grant the person protection. I think what he is actually explaining is not why Harry is alive, but that Harry is alive without Voldemort’s soul attached to him – whole and untarnished.

Activation of the spell = Killing of Lily Potter (therefore even though she had the blood enchantment, the AK did not rebound)

Attempted murder of Harry Potter (Baby) = Lily’s/Harry’s blood present in Harry, works to reflect AK onto LV.

Murder of Harry Potter in the forest = Lily’s/Harry’s blood present in Harry, works to reflect AK onto LV. Harry falls flat on the ground. Harry is the master of the Elder Wand and chose to allow the AK to affect himself. The AK separates Harry’s body from his soul. The 7th piece of LV’s soul is thus separated from Harry too, and both souls go to Limbo land.

Lily’s/Harry’s blood present in LV, works to reflect AK (into the woods?) LV falls on the ground.

Death of Voldemort = The Elder Wand is forced to work against its master. The master intends the Elder Wand to kill Voldemort, so the AK that it shoots out rebounds off the disarming spell in the flame of fire, going in the same direction as the disarming spell, so that Voldemort is disarmed and killed at the same time. I can’t explain why the AK didn’t rebound off Voldemort this time, though perhaps the AK might have rebounded off Voldemort and was absorbed by the flame of fire in the centre.

would he still not have been able to kill Harry because as long as Voldemort lives Lily's protection still runs through his veins?

It doesn't. That ended when Harry turned 17.

or B) because the Elder Wand refused to kill it's master and so only destroyed the piece of Voldemort's soul and not Harry's soul?

Because the Elder wand would not kill it's master. I think anyway. I'm hoping to understand it a bit better after another 700 reads!

Yes, I agree with you, I felt the same. I wanted it to be more after Voldemort's death, like funerals etc. Now it just felt like 1. Voldemort dies. 2. 19 years later, everything's fine. It's good in the way that it leaves a lot to your imagination, but still I had wanted a little bit more.

i agree 100%, it was way to abrupt, i wanted at least one chapter about what happened to hogwarts and all that

Where is the chapter 37 ?!!!!!!!!!!

Where is the chapter about victory, sadness about the deaths, the joyce to be at least free ?

Come on Rowling, that was a good joke.

Give us back the chapter now.

I could have soooo used another chapter! It would have been merciful lol. But I gues JKR was being merciful to have us thinking that it had to end some time...

But -

If you're reading this JKR (highly doubt it lol), or you're on the forums - we're waiting for that chapter! lol

I would have dropped the epilogue altogether and it's place have a proper ending. The real ending was way too abrupt almost like it was a thriller cliffhanger ending :no:

I think 19 years is a huge gap.

I didnt mind it as a chapter but there could ahve been something in betwee, say 6 months or even a week after the battle

Yep I agree. Another chapter before the epilogue about the immediate aftermath of the Voldemort's downfall would have been great.

As others have suggested it could have been the funerals or something. Just because there wasn't a chance to say a proper goodbye in the midst of the battle.

I think the epilogue would have made more sense had we had another chapter with everyone together contemplating all that had happened. I feel it would have helped me enjoy the epilogue more as it wouldn't have felt so 'stuck on' at the end.

Yeah, I agree 100%. As I was getting towards the end of the book, I kept getting more and more nervous as the number of pages left was dwindling down! Did anyone else feel that way?

I felt that way also. I kept thinking in the back of my mind, that I can't believe that I'm this close to the end.

I felt the ending wasn't to abrupt, but anti-climatic. I felt that with all the build up put into this battle, that it was a bit of a let down. I thought there'd be more fightining and less talking.

I agree with Wizard_waker. There was actually little fighting at the end so I guess I expected some more clashes and bangs. The whole thing felt a bit anticlimactic. I was really, really hoping for some sort of chapter that would explain Harry's emotions or how he felt towards all those people that died and what happens to them. But it was 'harry wants a sandwich.' The End. 19 years later...

The ending felt abrupt mostly because of the epilogue. I'd barely been able to let the ending sink in when I was presented with a side story that was a completely different tone, setting, etc.

On the other hand it probably would have been worse to drag out the ending.

As I was thinking about this some more I started thinking that the last chapter before the epilogue is similar to the end of the second to last chapters of the other books. After reading 6 others that followed that pattern, maybe I was just expecting something else. I also got thinking about what echinopsis said, and I think that Harry confronting his feelings about Snape now would have made for an amazing scene.

While a dragged out ending would have been worse, I think she could have pulled out one more chapter before the epilogue. Even if she made it something like...all of the main characters are back at The Burrow, and you see Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny starting their relationship, as they discuss things or something to that effect. She should have led us into the epilogue, rather than springing it on us.

I disagree. One thing that I absolutely hate is books where the story drags on and on after the climax. I was glad that this one resolved things so quickly. However, I would have liked a longer epilogue.

I agree with the original poster. I thought it ended very quickly- isn't the book over the day after Voldemort is defeated and then we get the epilogue 19 years later?

I think it would've been great to read about how things were going a month later, even. Things ended very rapidly and I would have enjoyed reading about how everyone dealt with the deaths, how the wizarding world was pieced back together and even how things went down at Hogwarts after the battle. Plus- where did Harry go after all this? What about Hermione's parents living in Australia? How did George Weasley cope with Fred's death? WHAT ABOUT TEDDY LUPIN!?! That's the one that bothers me the most- Teddy is such a charged character with the potential to be sooo interesting! What did Harry do about his godson? I miss not knowing about that relationship.

Plus- did the trio ever return to Hogwarts to finish their education?

There are so many little things I wonder about. I wish she would have forgone the current epilogue in place of something that really answered our questions and took place sooner than 19 years. I think many of us would've assumed that Harry, Ginny, Ron and Hermione stayed together...what I wanted to know is all the unknown stuff that I'm not creative enough to imagine myself!

I felt let-down, and read the last chapters a second time to confirm that they were disappointing. With all due respect to the author, I expected more of the answers to be revealed other than the play-by-play thru Snape's mind and then Dumbledore filling in the gaps in their chat in limbo.
I guess I feel disappointed about all the details from the past 6 books, and the author "shockingly indiscreet" comments that turn out to be false leads and red herring. Sorry in advance if someone finds this offensive. I read it in 3 days, but book 7 did not leave me feeling "brilliant."

On the other hand it probably would have been worse to drag out the ending.


precisely how I felt even if i was disappointed, I think JKR wanted to avoid a whole scene with harry apologizing to the Weasleys, it has happened to much [i.e Hospital / recovery scenes] at the end of the books.

If JKR had added a whole explanation scene at the ending you could argue it would be more anti-climatic.

The ending didn't do justice to a lot of characters. The most important in my mind being Lupin. Being Harry's friend, and Harry's last friend that tied him to his parents, and the man that made Harry a godfather, and the man that taught him the Patronus that saved Harry's life multiple times, I feel he deserved more. He deserved a funeral. At the very least, he deserved Harry's grief. Harry was so cold at the end of the battle, and then he was so emotional in the epilogue (explaining to Albus Snape about houses), and it was like a disconnect. There needed to be scenes in between.

I have to disagree, I loved this ending! The ending of HBP seemed rushed to me when i read, but I like how DH ends. I would've liked to have heard more about more characters, just to satisfy my own curiosity, but the ending did the series justice, in my opinion.

I 100% agree, I think I posted something like your original post in another thread,

I feel robbed of closure!!

Yeah, we've spent 6 books caring for these characters and then everything is kind of dropped. 6 books of caring for characters who die in the last few pages and to whom we should have been able to say goodbye. In addition, the little bit of putting the wizarding world back together that was discussed would have made more sense to happen after the battle, it certainly wouldn't happen that very night.

yes I agree, it was very abrupt. I wanted to see what all seven books came down to. Improper ending, very disappointing :(

A more comprehensive epilogue might have done the job, but Harry's assertion that he'd had enough excitement was a good ending, imo.

Sometimes too much info is... too much :huh:

thats the one part of the book ididnt like too much. the end was something we have all been waiting for since we picked up that first harry potter book. then all of the sudden, harry throws one speel and voldemort throws back a spell and thats it. It was supposed to be an epic battle between two characters that have been waiting basically their whole lives too meet each other at this point, and it just ended. sigh... the ONE and only downside of this book to me

So far many theories have been proposed, and I think if they all are all linked in the correct way we can arrive at a close to answer as possible.

I think that the protection offered by Lily's blood enchantment and the power Harry wielded over the Elder Wand deal with the body and soul respectively. When Harry walked to his death, the Elder Wand responded because Harry submitted to the AK curse sent at him. This in essence removed the soul from his body as well as the part of Voldemort's soul still within him. The next step was both souls going to "King's Cross Station" and Voly's soul being extinguished.

However, because of Lily's Enchantment Harry's body remained fully of life because of Voldemort kept Harry's blood alive by having it in him. Thus Harry had the "choice" to return to life and he did. In regards to Voldemort being knocked out it could have just been the effects of Harry being knocked out and/or some type of rebounding effect (I think it more likely something else).


Now in the final battle Lily's Blood Enchantment is removed from the picture and Harry finally realizes the power he has over the Elder Wand and knows that when Voldemort casts it, he will not be affected. So when Harry casts Expelliarmus he disarms Voldemort and since he is also the Master of the Elder Wand and he makes the Killing Curse rebound back on Voldemort killing him forever.

This is just my theory and I have no idea whether it is right or not.

Another thing which I do not understand is how Harry's sacrificing himself is able to protect the other members of Hogwarts from being attacked by Voldemort. Is it because Harry is just a beast at magic or that he was able to perform the same charm that is mother did?

i think that the Expelliarmus and the Avada Kedavra did not collided in the great hall...
but the AK rebounded at the time the Elder wand was changing owner...i don´t know how to explain it...just picure it...the ray came from harry, as if he had spelt him, because he was the true owner!

So far many theories have been proposed, and I think if they all are all linked in the correct way we can arrive at a close to answer as possible.

I think that the protection offered by Lily's blood enchantment and the power Harry wielded over the Elder Wand deal with the body and soul respectively. When Harry walked to his death, the Elder Wand responded because Harry submitted to the AK curse sent at him. This in essence removed the soul from his body as well as the part of Voldemort's soul still within him. The next step was both souls going to "King's Cross Station" and Voly's soul being extinguished.

However, because of Lily's Enchantment Harry's body remained fully of life because of Voldemort kept Harry's blood alive by having it in him. Thus Harry had the "choice" to return to life and he did. In regards to Voldemort being knocked out it could have just been the effects of Harry being knocked out and/or some type of rebounding effect (I think it more likely something else).


Now in the final battle Lily's Blood Enchantment is removed from the picture and Harry finally realizes the power he has over the Elder Wand and knows that when Voldemort casts it, he will not be affected. So when Harry casts Expelliarmus he disarms Voldemort and since he is also the Master of the Elder Wand and he makes the Killing Curse rebound back on Voldemort killing him forever.

This is just my theory and I have no idea whether it is right or not.

Another thing which I do not understand is how Harry's sacrificing himself is able to protect the other members of Hogwarts from being attacked by Voldemort. Is it because Harry is just a beast at magic or that he was able to perform the same charm that is mother did?


i liked this one...
i agree

I felt the ending was abrupt too.
I dont know, the epilogue didn't convince me. I would have prefered to know what happened after the war, like the next day, and not all of a sudden 19 years later!!

I totally agree...

Every other book has another chapter after the climax and this needed one too...it just all happened so fast and I was totally uninspired by the epilogue

I absolutely agree. I really needed a chapter between the last and the epilogue to let everything sink it. It was really harsh and abrupt- I needed a chance to mourn with Harry and accept everything that had just happened. The last way I ever expected the series to end is with Harry wanting a sandwich. I honestly thought I was missing a chapter.

i just realized something guys. The AK rebounded because that wand would not kill its owner. but lets say that voldemort had a different wand. Another wand that he truley won. the AK would never have rebounded because the wand would have been voldemorts, right? And lets say they had to fight with skill alone. so if that was the case, doesnt this mean that if harry or voldemort had killed one another in a skills duel, then niether would have died? harry could not die while voldemort had his blood in him, and same with harry because voldemort had the same protection running in his blood. so the only real way to actually kill one another is for basically the attack to rebound.

It felt like it should have been there. It's the 'come down' chapter, and there's one in all of the other books. So to not have it felt really off.

So yeah, 110% agree that it should have been there. I just don't get why she wouldn't.

yes, the theory that blood linkage would be reciprocal to Voldemort has come across my mind, but it was never explicitly stated in the books. Since Harry is protected from being killed as long as Voldemort lives, the same should be said for Voldemort. Thus, given two new wands with different cores, theoretically neither could win. I would actually love to see a battle written with this happening.

Everyone answered the first thing correctly.

But if you read it carefully when harry and tom are fighting. They casted there spells at the same time, now harry being the master of the elder wand screwed up the wand's precise skill. It said that the spells collided and thats what rebounded the AK Because it was so weak since harry was the real master they both flew at Tom Riddle. Killing him.

I think the reason Voldemort was able to "kill" Harry in the forest with the Elder Wand was because he was sacrificing himself. In the Great Hall, they were actually fighting each other, so the wand didn't work against Harry because he was the real owner.

Me too... I felt cheated out of the good and bad emotions of a post battle chapter. Harry and Ginny reuniting. Neville and Gran... Luna... Mourning the dead... So, much just left hang it was a cold ending...

What I thought was weird was how after Voldemort was defeated, it wasn't at the end of the chapter, it was like in the middle, and the next paragraph was talking about what was going to happen, and I though there should've been a gap there, and then some more explanation before the epilogue.

Thought of Voldemort's death was practically:

and then he died.

HUH?

I read seven massive books for THAT? There better be freeze frame on him when he dies, or zoom, slow-mo, WHATEVER. I want noticed death. Not:

and then he died.

Yes! Just wanted to support the thread! :lol:

As a Harry/Ginny fan, I was like "wait, wait, i want to know! i want to see the after-battle-encounter!", but aside of that, there were so much stuffs that could've been address.

I think that they didn't want to do a OotP again (in terms of pages), but the fact that it was the last book of the series and since JKR has insisted that no more books will be done, it was needed.

WE WANT TO KNOW, Jo! :lol:

I hope that that "encyclopedia to be made" satisfices somehow our need for a lot of things that were not written or addressed in DH. Hopefully.:whistle: I pray, PLEASEEEE! :upset:

I mean, Rowling spent 6 books building up Harry and Ginny.

More like one, haha. Perhaps you meant "Ron and Hermione?"

I think the epilogue wouldn't have been nearly as....mediocre if we had a ending chapter.

In my opinion, yes.

Throughout the book, I could not believe that Jo didn't expand on the Harry/Ginny relationship. The Ginny Weasly character had been advanced well throughout Order of the Phoenix and Half Blood Prince, and then she reverted back to a sidenote in Deathly Hallows.

And after all of the Battle of Hogwarts, Harry put on his cloaking device and basically said, "I'll deal with you later, but oh, I do love you again now ... when I get back talking things over with Ron and Hermione."

There needed to be a conclusion chapter prior to the epilogue. By the way, why did it take Harry and Ginny seven years to have children?

I am happy with the way it is, mostly because everything I think of that could be added couldn't be pulled off in my mind. What would that last chapter have involved? Where would Harry go? Hogwarts is falling apart, the other families probably want to either celebrate or go home, and I think that ending in the burrow wouldn't have the same effect as the real ending.

I'm hoping for an 8th book...I want some answers! The funerals of Fred, Lupin, Tonks and Colin..and all the others. The courtship of Harry and Ginny, Ron and Hermione...the future of Luna, Neville, the Dursleys, Grangers and the Malfoy's..............a full 19 years of it!
That's not too much to ask, is it?

Except for the epilogue, the ending was great. I like to compare it to the third bears porridge. It left alot to the imagination.

Glad to know I'm not the only one to feel this way.

While I understand that not every little question could be answered in a narrative, I definitely felt like something was missing. There wasn't any sort of wrap-up or moving on for any of the characters.

I will be very interested in the encyclopedia, which will supposedly explain what happens to all of the characters in the 19 year gap (and I think beyond). Do you think JKR will take suggestions for questions we would like answered?

I think the epilogue could have had more detail. I would have liked to know what happened to characters other than Ron, Hermione, Harry, Ginny and Neville. But aside from that I don't think the ending was too abrupt.

The story definitely need more time to wind down. To appreciate the people that had to die for Harry, to celebrate Voldemort being dead and gone. To reconnect with the more 'secondary' characters that have only appeared here and there.

And finally, to give us some immediate closure, that 19 year jump is straight up brutal. when I was reading that it was like suddenly losing 19 years of my own life. It just wasn't fair.

What most people have said basically sums up my feelings. It did end too abruptly and I'm still left with lot's of unanswered questions :(

What most people have said basically sums up my feelings. It did end too abruptly and I'm still left with lot's of unanswered questions :(

And it's just all the unaswered questions that people talk about.

When I finished the book, even after the epilogue, I felt absolutely no sense of closure. For being the last book in long, very emotionaly involved series there should have been enough of an ending that brought people back down from the excitement of the battle, and let them leave it in peace. And a small glimpse of their lives 19 years later doesn't cut it.

Im fuming at the lack of ending!! It was so rubbish there was nothing, just Voldie died and Harry wanted a sandwich!! ***!!



There needed to be a conclusion chapter prior to the epilogue. By the way, why did it take Harry and Ginny seven years to have children?

Um Ginny was sixteen when the books ended, give the girl a chance to have a life before making her pop out the sprogs will ya?!:p


I think this is why the epilogue is coming in for so much critism, there was no ending to the story, we got no closure. It was terrible, the one major fault that I have to pick with DH. If we'd had a chapter to see everything wind down and life get back to normal the epilogue mightened have felt so out of place.

most definitely.

though i want to emphasize that it's not because i want more resolution and explanation. i don't want any more tidy bows thrown over anything. there's already far too much of that for such a dire book. i just agree with folks that there had to be more of a chance to linger, process and appreciate what had transpired. that's what made dobby's death so powerful and every other death in the book so shallow.

I agree 100% it felt like she missed out a whole chapter. I would have been more satisfied if we had a chance to grieve the dead and celebrate the victory over voldemort. I felt a little cheated.

I full heartedly agree. And sadly, in my case, I felt rather let down by the entire book. From the begining I felt the quality of writing went down and, as others mentioned, all the questions that were answered were done so in a totally unsatisfying way. I wanted to see Harry and Snape confront each other, and watch harry deal with his own prejudices. I want Voldemort to die more slowly. I wanted fully thought out, fleshed out answers. Instead I think we got sketchy details. And the epilogie was the worst part of it. We were told we would find out what happened to everyone that survived. That didn't happen at all, in fact, all the original characters took a back seat to their offspring. And with all the names floating around, it was hard to figure out who was whose. I mean, I am assuming Victoire(or whatever) was Ron and Hermione's daughter, named after Viktor Krum? What are thier jobs? How did George handle surviving his twin? Did Grawp get mainstrem acceptance? Were house-elves and goblins given more freedoms and allowed to use wands? Did Harry ever see the Dursleys again? Or even, did the Dursleys even make it out alive? And so many more things unanswered. I think JK really needed another book, or she needed better pacing. Uggg..I am so unhappy about how this ended up.

It totally was too abrupt. One more chapter before the Epilogue would've been perfect! It wouldn't even have to be terribly long, just a nice funeral for all, remembering each one, a place for the trio plus Ginny to just be together and start the recovery process.

Ron and Hermione, or also Harry and Ginny getting engaged! One last big kiss for Harry and Ginny, where they say to each other those 3 little words, "I Love You" Seeing exactly who would take little Teddy. And where were they going to go after that, where were they going to live? And what jobs did the trio end up with?

Maybe she is leaving a place to write a followup? Or at least will include all this in her Encyclopedia? That would be also perfect. In fact, I have to think this might be the reason.

The Epilogue was nice, but what about what happened in the meantime? Some more back story (regarding the 19 years) and more character introduction, would've been great.

And it's just all the unaswered questions that people talk about.

When I finished the book, even after the epilogue, I felt absolutely no sense of closure. For being the last book in long, very emotionaly involved series there should have been enough of an ending that brought people back down from the excitement of the battle, and let them leave it in peace. And a small glimpse of their lives 19 years later doesn't cut it.

I suppose in that sense it's good that there are unanswered questions- people can continue speaking about the books and guessing things.

I still would have preferred to have my questions answered by JKR in the seventh book though. I'd been waiting so long, and others to... :(

I don't feel that we grieved properly for the people who died throughout the war- how many students died? It's like JKR just want to finish the books as soon as possible.

Definitely. It goes against common sense to not go through the feelings and emorions of everyone after the final battle. I don't understand what the author, editors and publishers were thinking. There was no closure what-so-ever. That just irks me.

Deathly Hallows was like Return of the Jedi ending just with Darth Vader defeating the Dark Lord. You don't have the confrontation between Luke and Vader. No burning of his mask. No ewok celebration. And worst of all, no where was there a Death Star explosion.

I feel like I have an arm missing.

Does anyone else think that DH could have used another chapter between the last chapter and the epilogue? I just felt like I was reading the book and, bam, I've finished the story. I have liked the way all other other books have had a chapter almost entirely devoted to winding down the story, thought it is usually in the context of Harry going back to live at Privet Drive. In this instance though, I felt robbed ...

Have to agree ... there needed to be something in between the two (Last Ch. & Ep.) I too always loved how she would place that 'cool down' text at the ends of the books.

In addition, I'm one of the manly who felt the epilogue needed a lot more detail or information on the surroundings which I hoped would paint a picture of what the Wizarding world looked like!

I really wish that there was another chapter too. The hardest thing about a tragedy (the huge battle could be called such) isn't that day; it's the day after when you have to mourn, and still get up and keep going. And I didn't have time to be really sad about all the people who died. I was too worried about Harry. I haven't cried at all about any of the characters who died, and I wish we (and Harry) had had the oppritunity to cry a bit and remember them.

So far many theories have been proposed, and I think if they all are all linked in the correct way we can arrive at a close to answer as possible.

I think that the protection offered by Lily's blood enchantment and the power Harry wielded over the Elder Wand deal with the body and soul respectively. When Harry walked to his death, the Elder Wand responded because Harry submitted to the AK curse sent at him. This in essence removed the soul from his body as well as the part of Voldemort's soul still within him. The next step was both souls going to "King's Cross Station" and Voly's soul being extinguished.

However, because of Lily's Enchantment Harry's body remained fully of life because of Voldemort kept Harry's blood alive by having it in him. Thus Harry had the "choice" to return to life and he did. In regards to Voldemort being knocked out it could have just been the effects of Harry being knocked out and/or some type of rebounding effect (I think it more likely something else).


Now in the final battle Lily's Blood Enchantment is removed from the picture and Harry finally realizes the power he has over the Elder Wand and knows that when Voldemort casts it, he will not be affected. So when Harry casts Expelliarmus he disarms Voldemort and since he is also the Master of the Elder Wand and he makes the Killing Curse rebound back on Voldemort killing him forever.

This is just my theory and I have no idea whether it is right or not.

Another thing which I do not understand is how Harry's sacrificing himself is able to protect the other members of Hogwarts from being attacked by Voldemort. Is it because Harry is just a beast at magic or that he was able to perform the same charm that is mother did?


yes, I think you've got it right.. that's pretty neat. I misunderstood Dumbledore - he really was explaining why Harry was alive.

I was wondering why Lily Potter being dead still manage to keep him alive. I've now realised that when Harry was a baby, the blood enchantment simply caused AK to rebound off Harry and he didn't die. However, in the forest, Harry really 'died'. The tethering of Harry's soul to earth can happen only if Harry really died.

I was wondering why Lily's blood enchantment in Aunt Petunia won't 'tether' Harry to earth too, but then I realised my mistake: the blood that tethers him to earth (or gives him a choice to return from Limbo land) must be part of Harry's own body, not Aunt Petunia's, not Lily Potter's.

As for your question, I'm not 100% sure. I thought voldy's spells didn't work well because he wasn't the master of the Elder Wand. Harry did say that he performed the sacrificial love charm though, he said it before the final battle. But I don't know how it should work, since no blood was shed.

my other harry potter books are miles away from me right now so i can't really answer my own question.. pls help.
but isn't it that lily's protection would break if harry turned 17? if so, wouldn't harry's protected blood running through voldemort's veins have the same effect, i mean, shouldn't the protection be gone too?

I was wondering why Lily's blood enchantment in Aunt Petunia won't 'tether' Harry to earth too, but then I realised my mistake: the blood that tethers him to earth (or gives him a choice to return from Limbo land) must be part of Harry's own body, not Aunt Petunia's, not Lily Potter's.

Nice observation and sum up!

And Kathy - this is a common misunderstanding. The protection that expired at 17 was not Lily's, but a second charm put in place by Dumbledore.

I seem to remember fire springing up at the point where both spells met? Is that right, and if so what was it? I know the sun had just come up but I didn't think that was it.

my other harry potter books are miles away from me right now so i can't really answer my own question.. pls help.
but isn't it that lily's protection would break if harry turned 17? if so, wouldn't harry's protected blood running through voldemort's veins have the same effect, i mean, shouldn't the protection be gone too?
Dumbledore performed the charms that protected him at home with the Dursleys (a blood relation, I might add).

As for Lily's protection, only worked when he was a baby vs AK. Kept Voldemort from touching him, but not killing him - at least, I assume that he could kill him, twin cores aside. It wasn't until he took the blood from Harry so that he could touch him again did he make Lily's sacrifice live on. Or so we're told. The more I think about it, the more confused I get, not less.

Well , the whole thing is confusing , but alot of stuff in HP series didnt make much sense if you think about it . In the 3rd book , the whole time reverse thing was confusing . how could harry save himself ? He should have been shaved once to go back and save him .I just dont get it . Why sirius couldnt have been saved the same way . Saved by another person who used the time machine or so . In the 4rth book ti makes absolutely no sense why the death eater would bother doing all this stuff to make him win the tournament to transport him to voldemord , which still he couldnt be sure he d win .I mean there where alot of times that he and harry were alone and it would have been much easier to just take him , with the same gate or apparate just outside of hogwarts , curse him ........ In the 5th book , said that Voldy couldnt go to the ministry because he d get notice , so they wanted harry to go instead. Well there had been an army of dath eaters in the ministry down there without getting noticed , including death eaters that escaped the Azkaban :P:P:P And i liked the convient apperace of Vold in the ministry in the end where the prophrcy was broken and stuff .Seems like he didnt afraid of getting noticed then :P I like HP books but theres alot that just dont make sense

The protection that expired at 17 was not Lily's, but a second charm put in place by Dumbledore.

Okay, I admit it, my brain is fogged. What did Lily's protection do in the long term?

I get it that DD added the protection to keep him safe till he was 17, but aside from stopping Harry from dying when Voldie attacked him at the tender age of 1 and stopping Voldemort/Quirrell from touching him because of the pure blood, what did this do once Voldemort had some of it in him after GOF?

I really need to re-read DH!!! I vaguely remember DD explaining this to Harry at the "train station"

I think that Voldemort's AK in the forest did rebound- they both "died". remember the baby looking thing in the kings cross? i belive that was what was left of volemorts soul, while harry's was still pure. voldemort, like harry, choose to come back.

I belive that voldemort knew that harry was also given the option, but he did not belive that harry would even dream of coming back, because voldemort was so arrogant with his power. i think he thought that now, after they both got blasted to... er... the train station..., that harry's mother's protection must have broke, and he expected harry to know that, and choose to "move on". thats why he wanted to make sure he was dead, having narcissa check him, but voldemort was very quick to belive that he was right.

Okay, I admit it, my brain is fogged. What did Lily's protection do in the long term?
Take it FWIW, since I'm getting more confused and not less. But the short answer is, it shouldn't have done anything else.

Had LV not taken Harry's blood in the graveyard and we take away all of the special stuff like Harry's wand attacking LV and the twin cores, I think Harry is toast if ever hit by another AK. The protection only worked when he was a child. The new protection from that same sacrifice is only brought about by Voldemort choosing to rebuild his new body with Harry's blood.

Well , the whole thing is confusing , but alot of stuff in HP series didnt make much sense if you think about it . In the 3rd book , the whole time reverse thing was confusing . how could harry save himself ? He should have been shaved once to go back and save him .I just dont get it . Why sirius couldnt have been saved the same way . Saved by another person who used the time machine or so . In the 4rth book ti makes absolutely no sense why the death eater would bother doing all this stuff to make him win the tournament to transport him to voldemord , which still he couldnt be sure he d win .I mean there where alot of times that he and harry were alone and it would have been much easier to just take him , with the same gate or apparate just outside of hogwarts , curse him ........ In the 5th book , said that Voldy couldnt go to the ministry because he d get notice , so they wanted harry to go instead. Well there had been an army of dath eaters in the ministry down there without getting noticed , including death eaters that escaped the Azkaban :P:P:P And i liked the convient apperace of Vold in the ministry in the end where the prophrcy was broken and stuff .Seems like he didnt afraid of getting noticed then :P I like HP books but theres alot that just dont make sense

I must say that I have always thought the same thing, but after having read a lot of similar stories and watched movies with the same indirect way to capture someone, I'm fine with it. In the REAL world who would go through one year of trouble to get Harry to touch one portkey. All you would have to do is enchant a book and give it to Harry when he is out at Hogsmeade (out of the enchantments of Hogwarts essentially). That could be easily accomplished, but it would take away from the fantasy constructed by Rowling.

The indirect way that the Death Eaters operate allows Rowling to bring about other events along the way that create an interesting storyline however holey it may be.

However, because of Lily's Enchantment Harry's body remained fully of life because of Voldemort kept Harry's blood alive by having it in him. Thus Harry had the "choice" to return to life and he did. In regards to Voldemort being knocked out it could have just been the effects of Harry being knocked out and/or some type of rebounding effect (I think it more likely something else).


Now in the final battle Lily's Blood Enchantment is removed from the picture and Harry finally realizes the power he has over the Elder Wand and knows that when Voldemort casts it, he will not be affected. So when Harry casts Expelliarmus he disarms Voldemort and since he is also the Master of the Elder Wand and he makes the Killing Curse rebound back on Voldemort killing him forever.



Can I just ask, how do you make this assumption? I was under the impression that Lily's protection flows in Voldemort's actually body so if the soul in Harry had died it wouldn't have made any difference to Lily's enchantment that is in Voldemort's blood would it?

^^^

^^^

Okay, I admit it, my brain is fogged. What did Lily's protection do in the long term?

I get it that DD added the protection to keep him safe till he was 17, but aside from stopping Harry from dying when Voldie attacked him at the tender age of 1 and stopping Voldemort/Quirrell from touching him because of the pure blood, what did this do once Voldemort had some of it in him after GOF?

As for Lily's protection, only worked when he was a baby vs AK. Kept Voldemort from touching him, but not killing him - at least, I assume that he could kill him, twin cores aside. It wasn't until he took the blood from Harry so that he could touch him again did he make Lily's sacrifice live on. Or so we're told. The more I think about it, the more confused I get, not less.


When Harry was a baby, Lily's Enchantment in Harry's blood was 'activated' when Lily Potter was killed. As a result, Voldemort's AK rebounded off harry.

Harry could only die in the forest because he chose to and the Elder Wand obeyed his orders. I'm assuming only an AK cast by the Elder Wand (following the intentions of its master - a really powerful AK) can bypass Lily's Enchantment.

As rajudragon said, Lily's Enchantment Harry's body remained fully of life because of Voldemort kept Harry's blood alive by having it in him. Thus Harry had the "choice" to return to life and he did.

Note: The blood that tethers him to earth (or gives him a choice to return from Limbo land) must be part of Harry's own body, not Aunt Petunia's, not Lily Potter's.

However, in so doing Voldemort also received the protection of Lily's Enchantment. Before anyone rebuffs me on this point, it was Dumbledore who said, ‘Your blood in his veins, Harry, Lily’s protection inside both of you! He tethered you to life while he lives!’

Voldemort could die in the end because Harry intended for Voldemort to die and the Elder Wand obeyed its master's intentions. The AK shot out by the Elder Wand (following the intentions of its master) would have bypassed Lily's Enchantment in Voldemort.

Can I just ask, how do you make this assumption? I was under the impression that Lily's protection flows in Voldemort's actually body so if the soul in Harry had died it wouldn't have made any difference to Lily's enchantment that is in Voldemort's blood would it?

^^^

^^^

I think rajudragon was not saying that the 'resurrected' Harry no longer had Lily's Enchantment flowing in his veins..

What he meant was that both Harry and Voldemort still had the Enchantment, so you can take it out of the picture, if not their AKs would keep rebounding off each other. Rather, the significance of the Elder Wand came into play.

Harry didn't die though ..and we are told at the start of the book that the object the horcrux resides in must be destroyed. But Harry's body didn't die.

What confuses me about the elder wand ownership is what was Dumbledore's whole plan? Assuming of course that he had one, and I'm sure he must have. He told Harry at King's Cross Station that he planned for Snape to take ownership of the wand.

Firstly, how would Snape take ownership of the wand? Assume that Draco hadn't disarmed Dumbledore, then, if Dumbledore was a willing victim of Snape's AK would the wand become Snape's? We know that the wand didn't become Voldemort's when he AK'ed a willing Harry in the woods, although those circumstances were a little different as Voldemort was wielding the wand. I guess a possibility is that Dumbledore could have given the wand to Snape.

Secondly, what would be the point of Snape having the wand? Once all the horcuxes were destroyed did Dumbledore mean for Snape to duel Voldemort with the Elder wand? I don't believe there was any real need for Harry to do the final deed so maybe this is a possibility. Or, maybe Snape was to hand the wand over to Harry. But, if this was the case then we can assume Voldemort would be using another wand, one that he was actually the master of. I can't see how either Snape or Harry could defeat Voldemort if Voldemort was truly the master of his wand, even if Snape or Harry were in possession of the Elder wand. Or, another possibility is that Dumbledore meant for Snape to somehow pass the Elder wand onto Voldemort while somehow retaining ownership of it (or Harry having ownership of it), but this is getting rather convoluted and confusing.

As I said before, this is all assuming Dumbledore really had it all planned out (as much as possible, anyway), and maybe he didn't, but I find that hard to believe.


I belive that voldemort knew that harry was also given the option, but he did not belive that harry would even dream of coming back, because voldemort was so arrogant with his power. i think he thought that now, after they both got blasted to... er... the train station..., that harry's mother's protection must have broke, and he expected harry to know that, and choose to "move on". thats why he wanted to make sure he was dead, having narcissa check him, but voldemort was very quick to belive that he was right.

I think that Voldemort genuinely had no idea that Harry's blood in his (V's) veins was significant. It is some time before Voldemort understands why his AK on baby Harry backfired and even when Voldemort does have some understanding the magic he still sneers and arrogantly scorns its power. If Voldemort did understand the full power of Lily's spell he would never have used Harry as a blood sacrifice in the graveyard in GoF and immediately tried to use AK on him (Dumbledore understood though and immediately started planning).

There was no way Harry could voluntarily return to life after being AK'ed in DH without the blood protection and as Voldemort didn't know enough about the blood protection he didn't know Harry could come back.

Harry didn't become the owner of the Elder wand until the final battle when he won it from Voldemort.

He said "I am the owner of the Elder wand" when he actually was not. (all the talking confused Voldemort left him questioning the wands allegience and it also served to confuse the readers - all that chatter about Malfoy really baffling, but had no merit in reality because it didn't matter if the wand belong to Malfoy or Voldemort (simply taking it w/out a fight may win it for you - we don't know); in the end, you win the wand in battle and that is what Harry did.)

1. In the forest, the blood deal saved Harry.

2. In the final battle, Voldy couldn't kill anyone present because of Harry's pseudo death.

3. Harry got control of the wand with his Expell. spell at the moment Voldy cast the AK curse. The wand changed owners mid way and so the two spells clashed for a moment between them. The curse now went for the True Owner's opponent and the wand flew to its true owner.

pretty simple.

3. Harry got control of the wand with his Expell. spell at the moment Voldy cast the AK curse. The wand changed owners mid way and so the two spells clashed for a moment between them. The curse now went for the True Owner's opponent and the wand flew to its true owner.

pretty simple.

You may be right, but from what Harry had said before the ownership of the wand was never Voldemort. Harry theoretically had control over it when he disarmed Malfoy back at his manor.

I think that Voldemort's AK in the forest did rebound- they both "died". remember the baby looking thing in the kings cross? i belive that was what was left of volemorts soul, while harry's was still pure. voldemort, like harry, choose to come back.
This can't be so. First, had Voldemort actually died, we'd have heard about it, some mention would be made of a the AK rebounding yet again, etc. All we know is that he collapsed. Second, even if Voldemort DID die, he could not have gone to Kings Cross - he had Nagini still alive.

Don't forget what a horcrux does: think of Horcruxes as little tent pegs, pinning the main soul/tent to earth. Normally when a person dies, the soul is severed from the body and goes to the afterlife. The whole point of a Horcrux is to prevent that happening. So when the body is severed from the soul, the soul stays pinned to earth, able to look for a new body. Hence, "less than the meanest ghost"
As rajudragon said, Lily's Enchantment Harry's body remained fully of life because of Voldemort kept Harry's blood alive by having it in him. Thus Harry had the "choice" to return to life and he did. Note: The blood that tethers him to earth (or gives him a choice to return from Limbo land) must be part of Harry's own body, not Aunt Petunia's, not Lily Potter's.

I think this is close to exactly how it worked. To simplify it even more: think of Harry's blood in Voldemort as the equivalent of a "second" body. Where normally when a person dies with just the one body, the connection between the body and soul is severed, the soul goes free. But, Harry had this "second" body kept alive in LV, and the connection between body and soul was NOT severed. Hence, "tethered to life".

Pondering how long the protection "lasted", I am going to agree that its immediate protection, that as a "sheild" of sorts that Voldemort couldnt touch did end when Voldemort took the blood. I think at that time, it became a different type of protection, the "tether". I think that if Harry had been hit by an AK from Voldemort at any other time, the same thing would have happened in terms of Harry's soul being ejected from his body, yet still "tethered" to it by the blood.

This leads me to suspect that something else came into play to allow a "return" good as new, as theoretcially that tether should have been in effect since GOF. Perhaps the wand failed to kill the real body, and that is the key. Imagine how morbid if Harry's body had died, but his soul was still tethered to it - he might have had to use Voldemort's body!

However, in so doing Voldemort also received the protection of Lily's Enchantment. Before anyone rebuffs me on this point, it was Dumbledore who said, ‘Your blood in his veins, Harry, Lily’s protection inside both of you! He tethered you to life while he lives!’

I don't think that is what this quote means. I dont see that as saying the voldemort was also protected - only that the protection over Harry existed in two places.

you could see the blood bond in voldi as kind of like a harry horcrux, just not evil- therefore harry couldnt die while his 'horcrux' (blood bond) remained.

i must also question, are you master of death if you are the 'owner' of the 3 hallows even if they are not neceseraly in your possession? (e.g. harry dropped the ring in the forest but he could still be master of death as he owned the ring, likewise the elder wand). this would mean that harry could'nt die for 2 reasons, being master of death and the blood protection.

assume you just need to 'own' the hallows to be master of death:

therefor:

i see harry as killing voldi due to the elder wand being unable to harm its master and so rebounded.
however, we must ask then, if harry was NOT master of the elder wand, how would he have been able to kill voldemort???? surely he wasnt skilled enough. i understand him not being able to die (blood bond) but how to actually kill/vanquish voldemort????

after all, dumbledore intended the elder wand to die with him, but also guided harry to the hallows- how did dumbledore intended harry to kill voldemort (assuming the actual reason was harry owning the master wand)??? what was dumbledores thinking behind directing harry in the way of the hallows if he intended the wand to die with him?? how did he expect harry to kill voldi if???

any ideas

Yes, the question of how Voldemort collapsed seems to be unanswerable.

Since many different magical effects were present in the forest fight that it is hard to pin it on just one thing.

One theory that may be completely wrong is since Voldemort carry's Harrys blood that they share some sort of connection where so that when Harry falls so does Voldemort. This seems highly unlikely.

The rebounding effect that happened in the Great Hall, most likely did not occur in the forest because there was no mention of it. Since Harry is clearly described as being hit with it, this is also unlikely.

However, what I think makes a little bit more sense is the fact that Harry carried part of Voldemort's soul in him. What makes this part of the soul different is that it was not truly a Horcrux. It was accidentally made by Voldemort so it does not behave in the exact way a Horcrux would when destroyed. Under normal circumstances when a Horcrux is destroyed Voldemort seems to be unaffected, but since the part of the soul that resides in Harry is not truly a Horcrux it would seem plausible that when it is hit with an AK that Voldemort feel something. In this case, he was knocked unconscious much like Harry was and I think that baby in King's Cross symbolized the soul and in turn physically manifested with the fall of Voldemort onto the ground.

You may be right, but from what Harry had said before the ownership of the wand was never Voldemort. Harry theoretically had control over it when he disarmed Malfoy back at his manor.

It is possible that the ownership of the elder wand transfered to Harry merely because Harry defeated Malfoy and the Elder Wand refuses to remain in allegiance to a person once they have been defeated (whether or not they were using the Elder Wand at the time).

But Harry was not sure about this.

My point is, it doesn't matter. If it was already his, or if it belong to Voldemort in that moment, the Expell. curse took care of the whole thing either way. It became Harry's in that moment if it wasn't already OR it was already his and he just made use of it.

If it was already his, then one would assume Voldy's curses in the forest would have been directed back at himself. Also, Voldemort did take the wand from the grave and he used it after that. That might have been enough to make him the owner.

But none of that matters because with Harry's spell during the battle, he ensured he was the owner when the time was right.

I believe the curse didn't work in the forest was that it was really aimed at a blend of Voldemort's soul and Harry, where the seperation caused both parts to end up in the King's Cross type limbo. Because Harry was tainted with a piece of Voldemort, it was able to hit him although not truly kill him.

The curse would not have worked in the Great Hall, but because Harry used 'Expelliarmus' it forced the killing curse backwards upon its castor. I always pictured the two spells hitting each other with Harry's pushing Voldemort's back onto him.

Cheers,
Talen :)

voldi's curse wasnt rebounded in the forest because harry didnt cast a spell, there was nothing to rebound off.

what i ask is if harry being master of the elder wand caused voldi's downfall and dumbledore intended the wand to die with him, then we must assume dumbledore envisaged another method of defeat for voldemort, what???

however, though he intended the elder wand to die with him, we also know that he directed harry to the hallows, why???

i think these are the key questions!

am i the only one who thought that a more central charater on the side of good would have died, like HP, Ron, Hermione or professer Mcg, the ending just seemed a bit to happy for me, what do you think??

voldi's curse wasnt rebounded in the forest because harry didnt cast a spell, there was nothing to rebound off.

what i ask is if harry being master of the elder wand caused voldi's downfall and dumbledore intended the wand to die with him, then we must assume dumbledore envisaged another method of defeat for voldemort, what???

however, though he intended the elder wand to die with him, we also know that he directed harry to the hallows, why???

i think these are the key questions!

I don't think Dumbledore wanted the elder wand to die with him. The plan was for Snape to get the wand, he told Harry that at Kings Cross. He didn't excpect Malfoy to disarm him and become master of the wand. I am confused though how Snape becoming the master of the wand, after killing Dumbledore, would have worked. Even though the death was planned, disarming Dumbledore or "killing" him still would have made Snape master, but how would that have helped Harry? He would have had to become master over Snape. Maybe that was the flaw in the plan, I don't know. And if Dumbledore didn't want Harry to become master of the wand, your right, how was he supposed to beat Voldermort? It is a bit confusing.

I don't think so. I thought that it was nice that after all their troubles and all the stuff they had to go through, it was nice to have a break.

I was pretty sure, though, that Ron or Hermione would die. I thought that to anger Harry to see him (Voldemort) or something, they (the Death Eaters) would probably kill one (or both) of the two people who were closest to him at the time, and then Jo would reveal Ron and Hermione's relationship as a couple (you know, right before one of them dies - "I love you, Ron!" "I love you, Hermione!" *smooch*)

But I'm glad that they didn't kill them off!

I can also see your point, though. I think that all us Harry Potter fans were expecting more deaths since Jo emphasized that the books get darker, and darker, and that some key characters were going to die.

The reason Harry did not die in the forest is because of his mother's sacrifice. The Elder Wand doesn't go against its true owner, it's true, but since Harry WANTED to die, by killing him, the wand wasn't going against him at all. Harry would in fact have died, had it not been for his mother's blood tethering him to life. The Horcrux inside of Harry was destroyed because it neither a) wanted to be destroyed, or b) was the possessor of the wand.

The reason why the AK curse rebounded onto Voldemort in the Great Hall, however, is because of the Elder Wand. At this point, Harry was not willing to die, so the wand could not perform the jinx. Expelliarmus forced the jinx to backfire onto Voldemort.

That's how I interpreted it, anyways.

Too happy? Harry paid in spades, his whole life, for that ending. :D

And so did Fred, Tonks and Remus.

am i the only one who thought that a more central charater on the side of good would have died, like HP, Ron, Hermione or professer Mcg, the ending just seemed a bit to happy for me, what do you think??

i think i would have been depressed for a good couple of weeks if it didn't have a happy ending! i know an old softy! But it put me in a lovely wounderful mood and that the circle is complete!! Harry ernut that ending!

Too happy? Harry paid in spades,

spades????

I originally wanted a tragic ending. In fact, I originally wanted Harry to die. Until he was walking into the forest, that is, then I changed my mind and I thought the happy ending was perfect.

The ending was a good balance, I think. Sure, they grew up, had happy families, had children, la di dah. But along the way, they lost several irreplaceable people in their lives. It showed that even happy endings cannot come without a whole lot of misery.

I made a post elsewhere along these lines...I'll copy it here:

You know, I think JKR really pulled her punches when it came to killing off characters in DH.

I know a lot of characters died, but it was nowhere near what it could have been.

Not one of the major characters in the story (or at least, none of the major characters on the good-guys side) died.

Harry is still alive.
Hermione is still alive.
Ron is still alive.

There's your 3 main characters: not one of them died, which really surprised me. I was expecting either Harry, or both Ron and Hermione to be pushing up daisies by the end of the book. In addition:

Neville is still alive.
Ginny is still alive.
Luna is still alive.

In fact, the only people from the DA who died were Colin and Fred.

She only really killed off side characters in the book.

Remus was probably the biggest character to die, but even he in actuality had very few lines. Tonks we hardly knew. Snape was probably the biggest death of the book, but everyone was expecting him to die, so it didn't make too much of an impact, though I think the bitterness left in the mouth at the ignobility of his death was potent.

Really, the biggest death of the series - and pretty much the most shocking moment of the series - was Albus Dumbledore. Having your biggest punch in a book that was not the finale left DH feeling a bit unrealistic and hollow in terms of death.

Personally, I think JKR should have had the bravery to finish Harry off in The Forest Again. Now that would have been an ending.

I originally wanted a tragic ending. In fact, I originally wanted Harry to die. Until he was walking into the forest, that is, then I changed my mind and I thought the happy ending was perfect.


lol funny!!:lol:

It was a bit too happy. So harry doesn't suffer from post war depression? He doesn't become like Jack from lost? Everybody lives happily ever after. Are you kidding me???????????

What is wrong with a happy ending?

Isn't it what we always want? For all that Harry went through in his life, it would have been miserable if the series had ended with him crying over Ron or Ginny's body.

I thought the ending was good, the series deserved it. Harry has been a source of comfort for a lot of people ( and I am not using the word Kids) and millions have grown up with him. The series has meant so much to SO many people (and all over the world) over the last 10 years and it would have been really depressing if it had ended otherwise.

What is wrong with a happy ending?

Isn't it what we always want? For all that Harry went through in his life, it would have been miserable if the series had ended with him crying over Ron or Ginny's body.

I thought the ending was good, the series deserved it. Harry has been a source of comfort for a lot of people ( and I am not using the word Kids) and millions have grown up with him. The series has meant so much to SO many people (and all over the world) over the last 10 years and it would have been really depressing if it had ended otherwise.

'ear 'ear!:tu:

I thought the ending was perfect. After all the heartache and trouble Harry has lived with basically his entire life, it was nice to see that at the end he finally had happiness.

What is wrong with a happy ending?

It's unrealistic and therefore shallow.

Ok, I think I am even more confused after re-reading the book. I loved it and I am so happy how it ended.. and felt it was a great ending that not only fit this story but the whole series... My question is, and I apologize if it is a repeat... but I thought the protection of the "blood" in Harry and of course Voldemore after receiving it in GoF .. ended after Harry turned 17? How were Harry and Voldemort protected if the charm was already broken?

In fact, the only people from the DA who died were Colin and Fred.

We don't know this. The only ones that Harry had seen, as of the ending, were Colin and Fred. We don't ever see Justin or Susan, and Ginny was comforting some dying girl on the grounds. She was whispering, Harry was unable to tell who it was.

It's unrealistic and therefore shallow.

lol:lol:no that comment was shallow and rather narrow minded IMO

It's unrealistic and therefore shallow.

I get what you mean. so how would you have wanted it to end?

We don't know this. The only ones that Harry had seen, as of the ending, were Colin and Fred. We don't ever see Justin or Susan, and Ginny was comforting some dying girl on the grounds. She was whispering, Harry was unable to tell who it was.

yeh didn't it say that there were around 50 dead bodies in the entrance hall thingy

O.K. here is what I think....
First of all Voldemort wasn't the master of the elder-wand... so the bit of Voldemort that was inside of Harry ended up being the part that the wand accepted as a target.... so after that part of Voldemort was taken.... the elder-wand no longer worked on Harry...

In other words... the only way that the elder wand ever worked on Harry was that it would always have been targeting that bit inside of him that was Voldemort and not Harry.... so... once that bit was gone... the elder wand no longer had a target when directed at Harry because the wand recog.. Harry as it's master.

It's unrealistic and therefore shallow.

That Harry, after the first seventeen years of his life, losing his parents, his godfather, his mentor in Dumbledore, his father's remaining friend in Lupin, his faithful owl, his broomstick, is almost killed innumerable times, is tortured several others, is a pariah at various times, might one day simply have his own family is unrealistic?

It's unrealistic and therefore shallow.

Yes, but an entire world of witches, wizards, dementors, giants, centaurs, house elves, magical creatures, and magic isn't unrealistic? :)

Yes, but an entire world of witches, wizards, dementors, giants, centaurs, house elves, magical creatures, and magic isn't unrealistic? :)

don't forget the goblins!! they'll get ya otherwise! lol:lol:

yeh didn't it say that there were around 50 dead bodies in the entrance hall thingy

Fifty bodies plus Tonks, Lupin, and Fred. They were still bringing in Colin and others at that point. Since only teachers, of-age students, the Order, and the former D.A. and Quidditch team members were present, I have a strange suspicion that many more that Harry knew died that night.

that was put very nicely.. and I agree! I understood about the wand and you said it perfectly that it went after the Horcrux first.. and the recognizing Harry as its Master, it would not target him again... but the whole blood thing confused me ... ahhhh

Fifty bodies plus Tonks, Lupin, and Fred. They were still bringing in Colin and others at that point. Since only teachers, of-age students, the Order, and the former D.A. and Quidditch team members were present, I have a strange suspicion that many more that Harry knew died that night.

totally agree with you and everthin:tu: but i reckon a lot of under age people maybe stayed, what do you tink??

I think the biggest problem that people have with the ending was it just felt too much like a fairy tale. "All was well" sounds alot like JK's version of "Everyone lived happily ever after", despite the deaths in the book. Perhaps if the epilogue was written differently, or not there at all, people would feel differently about the ending. Actually, I would've liked if the epilogue just told us what became of the main characters who survived (their jobs, who they married, etc.) kind of like some movies do at the end before the credits start (Legally Blonde, for instance).

idk if it was too happy. i mean it was definatly how i figured the ending would be, like i guessed that'd be wat happend before the book even came out. although there were many deaths, it was still too predictable i think. although the epilogue was cute. :p

~*:slyth:*~

That Harry, after the first seventeen years of his life, losing his parents, his godfather, his mentor in Dumbledore, his father's remaining friend in Lupin, his faithful owl, his broomstick, is almost killed innumerable times, is tortured several others, is a pariah at various times, might one day simply have his own family is unrealistic?

The only of those people that we as a reader had any real emotional connection to was Dumbledore.

Anyway, all of those things (and I'm loving how you're adding trivial things like losing his broomstick in there to make the list seem longer) were in previous books, not DH.

And yes, it's unrealistic, because realistically Harry would have died. Even had he survived, he would be an emotional and mental wreck. In fact, he should have been a mental and emotional wreck in book one, after suffering the Dursleys.

I think the biggest problem that people have with the ending was it just felt too much like a fairy tale. "All was well" sounds alot like JK's version of "Everyone lived happily ever after", despite the deaths in the book. Perhaps if the epilogue was written differently, or not there at all, people would feel differently about the ending. Actually, I would've liked if the epilogue just told us what became of the main characters who survived (their jobs, who they married, etc.) kind of like some movies do at the end before the credits start.

i think the epilogue was perfect, i didn't think it needed to go into great detail. and jk is writin an encyclopedia about the rest of the characters so you'll find out anyway

Harry lost his parents, godfather, Lupin, the last Merauder, Fred (whom I bet he loved like a brother too), Dumbledore, even Hedwig, and around 10 people, most of them I bet were students. He had to leave Hogwarts in his last year, the one place he considered home. He saw Ron leave, and heard Hermione being tortured. He suffered a lot of tragedies in this book. I think he deserved this happy ending.

And I also thinks that after the war there must have been the funerals too. Not so happy in my mind.

totally agree with you and everthin:tu: but i reckon a lot of under age people maybe stayed, what do you tink??

I'm not sure about that. I think Colin only stayed (rather, was able to) because he was in the D.A.--which makes me wonder where Dennis was. However, the underage probably didn't know enough magic to slip by the teachers and prefects--aside from those Harry had taught. :D

And Cootes and Peakes. And Romilda. And... ;)

The point is that lots of people Harry knew were hurt or died. Was Lavender scarred like Bill? Lots of pain and suffering. It likely took nineteen years to recover from all of the damage.

That's not a terribly happy ending.

And I also thinks that after the war there must have been the funerals too.

At least that single wizard who seems to handle all wizarding ceremonies, whether they be funerals or weddings, would be doing well out of it.

I too wanted Harry to die up until he was walking towards the forrest. I managed to keep it pretty well together until that point, and that was when I completely lost it.

That being said, having reflected upon it, I think the epilogue was wonderfully done. If for no one else, Harry deserved that happy ending.

Firstly, how would Snape take ownership of the wand?

By expelliarmus. The way Draco became master. Snape could then still go on to kill DD but it was the fact he overpowered him that would have been the important factor.

Secondly, what would be the point of Snape having the wand? Once all the horcuxes were destroyed did Dumbledore mean for Snape to duel Voldemort with the Elder wand?

I think DD probably knew that voldemort would realise that Snape had the elder wand and kill him.

Harry didn't become the owner of the Elder wand until the final battle when he won it from Voldemort.

No, he became the master when he overpowered Draco and got Draco's wand. It doesn't matter that Draco wasn't holding the Elder wand at the time, he was the rightful owner, and was beaten.

3. Harry got control of the wand with his Expell. spell at the moment Voldy cast the AK curse. The wand changed owners mid way and so the two spells clashed for a moment between them. The curse now went for the True Owner's opponent and the wand flew to its true owner

The curse would not have returned to Voldemort if this was the case. And of course we also have Voldemort saying that it doesn't work as well as he thought it would - and then killed Snape because he thought he was the master. Harry's explanation makes sense that Draco was the master, and that as he had Draco's wand, he was now the master....before Voldemort ak'd him.

I too wanted Harry to die up until he was walking towards the forrest. I managed to keep it pretty well together until that point, and that was when I completely lost it.

That being said, having reflected upon it, I think the epilogue was wonderfully done. If for no one else, Harry deserved that happy ending.

Well said! :tu: lol

As a fan of Snape's and Fred's characters, I can say that the ending was somewhat tragic for me. I couldn't imagine how sad I would have been if a member of the trio died.

O.K. here is what I think....
First of all Voldemort wasn't the master of the elder-wand... so the bit of Voldemort that was inside of Harry ended up being the part that the wand accepted as a target.... so after that part of Voldemort was taken.... the elder-wand no longer worked on Harry...

In other words... the only way that the elder wand ever worked on Harry was that it would always have been targeting that bit inside of him that was Voldemort and not Harry.... so... once that bit was gone... the elder wand no longer had a target when directed at Harry because the wand recog.. Harry as it's master.

While I see what you are getting at, I don't think this is correct, because it presumes far too much.

1: it presumes the wand is able to distinguish one peice of soul form another
2: it presumes that "killing" soul material is possible. This is illogical given that you then have to presume that had Harry not had the bit of soul, it would have "aimed for" and then "killed" his soul instead. (if it could)
3: it presumes that not only can the wand tell one soul piece from another, that it could "aim" at the correct one.
4: it fails to account for why BOTH Harrys soul and the fragment seemed to be ejected from Harrys' body.

What happens when a normal person is hit by an Avada Kedavra? We have to think about this. While we have no "facts" about how it functions, it is safe to assume that when someone dies, three things happen. 1: kills the body 2: ejects the soul 3: severs the connection between body and soul.

Now we compare this to what we saw happen in the forest.

1: Did harrys body die? We don't know, we are not told. It doesnt really matter.
2: Was his soul ejected? Well, this does appear to have happened, and it so happened to have also ejected the fragment of soul we needed to have removed also!
3: Was the bond between body and soul severed? This does not appear to have happened - we are told that Lily's protection acted as a "tether" and this is exactly what a tether does - it restrains something so that it cannot stray too far.

So, to my mind, even if Harry's body died (and it might have, we just cant tell) the "blood of his body" still lived (and acted like a second body, sort of) - so that vital connection between body and soul was preserved, and allowed Harry to come back.

As a fan of Snape's and Fred's characters, I can say that the ending was somewhat tragic for me. I couldn't imagine how sad I would have been if a member of the trio died.

agreed. i love the book throughly! but the only thing i would change is that snape has a hero's death and harry and the trio can talk to him knowing he is innocent. i cried my eyes out when i realised his patronus was a doe, cos he helped the trio with it and he loved lily that much!

and not fogetting he grabbed harry so he could be reminded of lily just before he died! i wanna marry him!! lol

Harry did deserve a happy ending.. the fact that he got one is what makes it unrealistic, IMO.

The books have been very realistic all the way along (ok, its magic, but its been set and written very realistically), and right at the end.. the end of 10 years and 4000 pages.. is probably the most unrealistic moment of the full series "They all lived happily ever after"...Sorry, i mean "all is well"

Harry did deserve a happy ending.. the fact that he got one is what makes it unrealistic, IMO.

The books have been very realistic all the way along (ok, its magic, but its been set and written very realistically), and right at the end.. the end of 10 years and 4000 pages.. is probably the most unrealistic moment of the full series "They all lived happily ever after"...Sorry, i mean "all is well"

but why do you think it is unrealistic?

am i the only one who thought that a more central charater on the side of good would have died, like HP, Ron, Hermione or professer Mcg, the ending just seemed a bit to happy for me, what do you think??


Same thought .... just felt unrealistic with the fact that not one of the majors died. Sure Lupin got it (Tonks isn't major IMO) ,but we were cheated out of even hearing/reading about it so it didnt' feel quite the same. Fred was sad, but still. So yeah ... too happy, and unrealistic. Harry's death wasn't even a death ... just a way to have some back story explained by the 'internal' DD in Harry's head.

Considering the world we live in, and what I see on the news every day, I'll take all the happy endings I can get.

I was so afraid that Harry was going to die that I was a bundle of nerves all day at work on Friday. I could hardly think about anything else. Once I got to the book release party, I mellowed out a bit, but I was completely on edge again once I had the book in my hands and started reading.

I'm just so glad Harry lived that I can't really find fault with the ending at all.

:clap::clap::clap:HARRY LIVES!!!:clap::clap::clap:

I'm just so glad Harry lived that I can't really find fault with the ending at all.

:clap::clap::clap:HARRY LIVES!!!:clap::clap::clap:


Agreed!

The book was a bloodbath. Therefore, I really don´t mind a happy ending. Harry deserved it after all that he was through. Having his own family and having his best friends alive and happy around.

I also think it was good JKR did not give in to other people´s expectations. Most of us thought, afte she had killed off Dumbledore in HBP, she would have to top that in DH and kill off at least Ron and/or Hermione, if not Harry. She didn´t. She stuck to her ending how she had planned it.

but why do you think it is unrealistic?

In the real world, good doesn't triumph over evil simply because of the fact that its good.

In World War Two, do you think the allies won simply because they had the just cause? No, the allies won through good planning, skill, and a tremendous effort and sacrifice on the part of their populations. They won because they had the greater power.

That Harry Potter should win through a) the fact that he denies power and b) a convienent set of events that makes it so that he is the master of Voldemort's wand is unrealistic.

Voldemort is right to feel cheated by Harry. Voldemort deserved to win.

In the real world, there aren't convienent sets of events like that leading to Harry being the Master of the Elder wand.

was because Harry had used his wand to defend himself. But Harry didn't use the wand to defend himself in the forest, so the wand had no choice but to act.

Wait ... 'the wand had no choice but to act' ... since when did wands make and choose actions? I'm confused?

Its not like the protection Lily had given him. Wands won't work against the master if the master doesn't want them to work, but if the master is ready to accept the curse that the wand is about to place on him, then the wand has to act. Which was the case in the forest. ;)

Again ... I realize JK has thrown in a crazy amount of new 'wand rules' and the Elder wand apparently could somehow 'sense' who it's 'master' was ... but how are we to presume that this or any wand can choose when to 'act'? I mean so just because Harry was holding his wand the curse rebounded when in the forest the other curses 'worked' only because it was in his pocket? None of that makes any sense to me, and just seems out of place from everything else we know about wands:shrug:

A found the whole battle a bit stupid. All these times you have been hearing how evil dangerous voldemort is. Yet a bunch of kids and Adults manage to make them enter a stalemate. Voldemort gets killed really easily and Bellatrix gets killed by someone who couldn't even fight a boggart (something third year students could do). Everyone was fine and happy. :err: Voldemort and the Death Eaters were more scarier when you actually heard others talk about them. In action they were terrible.

In the real world, good doesn't triumph over evil simply because of the fact that its good.

In World War Two, do you think the allies won simply because they had the just cause? No, the allies won through good planning, skill, and a tremendous effort and sacrifice on the part of their populations. They won because they had the greater power.

That Harry Potter should win through a) the fact that he denies power and b) a convienent set of events that makes it so that he is the master of Voldemort's wand is unrealistic.

Voldemort is right to feel cheated by Harry. Voldemort deserved to win.

In the real world, there aren't convienent sets of events like that leading to Harry being the Master of the Elder wand.

i see what ya mean. But i think he earnt it. And Dumbledore had good forward planning and had the skill to work it all out. it wasn't just harry who got the happy ending. The trio all worked towards that great ending