Voldemort no good at Occlumency

In Half-Blood Prince, Harry had not been disturbed by his scar, Dumbledore explained: "Lord Voldemort has finally realised the dangerous access to his thoughts and feelings you have been enjoying. It appears that he has now employing Occlumency against you' (Chapter 4, book 6)

And in book 7, Harry entered in Voldemort thoughts easily without any effort!

Harry's connection to Voldemort is unique. I don't think you should judge Voldemort's occulmency skills based on Harry's ability to enter Voldemort's mind. I'm sure Voldemort is quite good at it.

Perhaps it was only Voldemort's exceptional ability at occlumentcy which prevented Harry from getting far more information far sooner.

Dumbledore tells snape that the bond between Harry and Voldermort is growing stronger (LV's soul in harry and harry's blood in LV). By DH, i think it is strong enough to overcome any occlumency attempts.

The bond between Harry and Voldemort V2 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=104043&highlight=voldemort+harry) covered some of this topic.

However seeing as it's been archived off this discussion can hold :)

And in book 7, Harry entered in Voldemort thoughts easily without any effort!

Only at times; Voldemort was much less in control of his emotions in book 7. Most of the time when Harry entered Voldemort's thoughts, it was when Voldemort was feeling strong emotion. Remember when Harry was actively trying to read Voldemort's thoughts, when he was fixated on the Hallows, and could only get blurred images; these were the times when Voldemort was in control of his emotions and so was able to keep Harry out.

What about Voldemort and Snape?How couldn't Voldemort understand Snape was actually at Dumbledore's side?I know Snape is also good at Occlumency but again if Snape could cheat him then Voldemort is not perfect at Occlumency:cool:

By the time in DH when harry could see into voldemorts mind, it wasnt the fact voldemort's occlumency wasnt working against harry, it was the fact voldemort was losing control. When someone loses control of their emotions they cant focus on closing their mind, as snape says wearing ones heart on their sleeve wont help them achieve occlumncy.

As for snape using occlumeny against voldemort, snape was a very talented wizard, probably the 3rd most powerful after DD and voldemort, he might have even been as good as them, he blocked voldemort and both voldemort and DD saw him as their strongest, closest ally.

I think it has a lot to do with LV and not keeping check of his emotions. Plus, Harry wasn't acting out so quickly, like he was in OotP, but using his knowledge to contemplate his actions at what he saw, so maybe LV wasn't so sure that he was entering his mind again.

Voldemort was very unstable at this point. We see him not being himself and letting things slip. The excitement of what he thinks is getting closer to defeating Harry, leads him to be careless in the way he protects his mind.

We must remember that Harry and Voldemort have a completely unique bond which had never been seen before. This bond we now know was because of Harry being a Horcrux. In any other, normal situation I believe Voldemort's Occlumency/Legilimency skills would have been perfect.

What I don't understand is why the bond didn't really work in reverse. Why couldn't Voldy see into Harry's mind when Harry was emotional? Harry was no good at Occlumency after all. Voldy could have caught Harry much more easily if he'd checked what H was thinking.

Voldemort was afraid to enter Harry's mind, because of what happened in OOTP. Dumbledore talks about this, I think in both HBP and DH. Here's the DH quote:

“Voldemort fears that connection,” said Dumbledore. “Not so long ago he had one small taste of what truly sharing Harry’s mind means to him. It was pain such as he has never experienced. He will not try to possess Harry again, I am sure of it. Not in that way.”

I think in HBP it would have been when Harry & Dumbledore were talking in the broom shed at the Burrow.

I'm sure he is exceptional at Occlumency, although I'm sure few wizards would be stupid or couragous enough to attempt it, there must be a few, so Voldemort should at least try. Besides, after learning about the bond between him and Harry, I'm absolutely sure he would've at least tried to learn Occlumency. Also, whenever Harry accessed his mind, it is usually when he is exceptionally angry, when he is not in control of his emotions and mind, something Snape says is very important in Occlumency.

I don't think that Harry could see into Voldemort's thoughts because Voldemort was bad at occlumency. He was probably extremely good at it, but there are other factors to look at. The first was that Harry was an unintentional Horcrux, so the part of Voldemorts soul in Harry was linked to Voldemort's main soul. It's amazing actually that Voldemort didn't realise that Harry was a Horcrux because he should have recognised the connection having made so many horcruxes himself. He undoubtedly knew a lot more about Horcruxes than any other wizard would.

The second factor is the blood connection. While Voldemort didn't understand how important the connection was, I think that he might have believed that Harry could see into his thoughts because of the blood connection.

Voldemort had never carried out occlumency and legilamency(spelling is wrong I know!:lol:) against someone who was a horcrux and who had a significant blood connection to him, so I think that in this case, the fact that he was good or bad at occlumency, don't really come into it as there was very powerful magic going on that had nothing to do with occlumency.

Finally I believe that Voldemort would have been arrogant enough to think that once he stopped looking into Harry's thoughts that Harry wouldn't be able to look into Voldemorts thoughts either. And it is quite possible that because Voldemort was becoming stressed and frustrated trying to locate the elder wand and then checking on his horcruxes towards the end of the book, that he didn't realise Harry was seeing into his thoughts.

Harry has gotten into Voldemorts mind a few times, but not always by will. He's tryed many times but has failed.

My understanding of it was not that Voldemort was bad at Occlumency, but rather that the unintentional horcrux residing inside Harry enhanced the connection that existed between the two. That Harry was able to see so clearly into Voldemort's thoughts and emotions is due to the horcrux - he sees events through Voldemort's eyes rather than seeing them as a third party observer. So in short, I don't think Harry's ability to see Voldemort's thoughts/actions is due to inadequate Occlumency on Voldemort's part, it was due to the horcrux in Harry and the scar connection they share.

Voldemort was afraid to enter Harry's mind, because of what happened in OOTP. Dumbledore talks about this, I think in both HBP and DH.




It also doesn't help Voldemort that a piece of Harry's soul is not in him to give Voldemort a way in.

The connection seems pretty one-way to me. He never, not even in OotP, tried to go into Harry's mind. He instead planted false images in his so that Harry would pick up on them.

By "what happened in OOTP" I meant when Voldemort tried to possess Harry, during the battle at the Ministry; it was not a 'mind-link' such as Harry has with Voldemort's thoughts, but a merging of the two minds/souls in Harry's body and unbearable pain for Voldemort. This is the reason he doesn't try to access Harry's mind in HBP or DH, though no doubt he probably could have (perhaps unknowingly), given the link he had with the Naginicrux.

I don't really think the connection is something that can be completely shut using Occlumency, or accessed in exactly the same way as Legilimency. It's something... beyond what normal Legilimency and Occlumency can accomplish.

Voldemort was a very powerful wizard, and I think he would have been at least very good, if not excellent, at Occlumency. It's just that the connection between him and Harry was not something that could be controlled entirely using Legilimency and Occlumency.

What about Voldemort and Snape?How couldn't Voldemort understand Snape was actually at Dumbledore's side?I know Snape is also good at Occlumency but again if Snape could cheat him then Voldemort is not perfect at Occlumency:cool:

Um, but now you're talking Leglimency, not Occlumency. The former is the reading of people's thoughts and the ability to detect when they are lying; the latter is the ability to block such an invasion. Given the fact that Snape's cover was never blown, I guess we can only assume that he was a more powerful Occlumens than Voldemort was a Leglimens.

Which is quite :cool: indeed! :love:

As others have said, it isn't that Voldemort wasn't good at Occlumency, but that his connection with Harry was an unusual one in itself. And as has been noted, Harry straying into his mind happens when he is feeling a particular surge of emotion, which weakens the blocking power as well.

I know this will appear off-topic, because it refers to the question how Occlumency works in the first place, but the other threads have been removed to the History of Magic section already :blush:

In another thread, we started to discuss Occlumency - this is the post I mean:

I'm about to go onto another topic, but here's something I noticed. I don't know if this was mentioned already, but the scene in DH where Harry is burying Dobby, there's the paragraph saying his grief for Dobby was allowing him to close his mind to Voldy. The last line was
"Grief, it seemed, drove Voldemort out...though Dumbledore, of course, would have said that it was love..."
Now we all know Snape was a very good Occlumens, but I always found it very curious that he was always able to hide all of his secrets from Voldemort, when we know how very powerful Voldemort is. But as it's been repeated many times in the series, Voldy cannot understand love. The evidence of love has been presented to him many times, but he never recognizes it for what it is, and I'm guessing the same can be said for anything else resulting from love. Maybe this is what we were supposed to find out for why Snape was able to close his mind so easily from Voldy: his love and grief for Lily.

I find the idea very good, I must say. However, there were objections, too, and pretty sensible ones -

Except if Voldemort sensed the grief in Snape, then Snape would have been in big trouble, since he had told Voldemort he didn't feel anything about Lily.

And Harry wasn't trying to block Voldemort's legilimency. He was trying to close off the door to the direct connection between their two minds which was quite different from blocking active legilimency.

I would have to agree with this. In addition, I think that if Snape were thinking about his grief and emotions for Lily it would leave him open and vulnerable to attack. That is how it was when he was made to face Harry gaining any knowledge of it, pained and volatile. I can't imagine his attempting to try and block Voldy using those thoughts; way to dangerous if Voldy caught a glimpse.


The ideas presented in these posts gave me the notion that Occlumency must work on different levels. I don't think it likely that Voldemort regularly rampages directly through his minions' brains like Severus does in OotP with Harry's. He might do so every now and then, when he's already got a certain suspicion, like when he wants to find out what the heck Lucius did with the diary. All in all, it's a time-consuming business though, searching his followers brains 'just so' is like flicking through the catalogue of a huge library and hoping to come across something of very particular interest. You've got to start with a certain 'key' at least.

However, most of the time, I believe that he is rather 'sensing' when talking to his lot, figuring out if they're lying, or concealing something while speaking. He would sense thus if a certain 'basic emotion' is suffusing the other person's brain, like Harry can sense his anger (mostly), or occasional joy about something. This brings me to Severus now.

What emotions are reigning him? A hazard a guess here - it's love (for Lily), guilt (for having had a hand in her death), remorse (for having a hand in her death, again), and utter frustration (about everything, really - let's face it, he's leading a very frustrating life). Now, with Severus' skill for Occlumency in the first place, how can he present these matters to his master?

Love - we often heard that Voldemort doesn't understand the first thing about it anyway.

Guilt and remorse - hey, he's a supposedly loyal follower of Voldemort, yet he never searched for his master, made himself comfortable under Dumbledore's wing, even actively counteracted the master's scheming (like in PS). Loads to feel guilty for, from Voldemort's point of view.

and finally, frustration - everyone with eyes and the tiniest bit of emphathy can easily imagine countless reasons for Severus to feel frustration, right? His job - his students - his position as a spy (against Dumbledore, who's no layman in Legillimency either) - darned Harry Potter - did I mention his rotten job, he, with all his talent, reduced to the excistence of a lowly teacher - the list could go on endlessly.

Now we heard fairly often how thoroughly arrogant Voldemort is. He staunchly believes that it is impossible to deceive him to begin with. He's also likely to fall for sycophantic behaviour (or what else did he ever see in old Lucius, eh?). RavenStar's post gave me the idea that he might shrink away from dealing with Severus' mind too closely because the 'basic tone' is just depressing, if that's a word. It's like staring at a very gloomy, depressive picture for too long. The occasional glimpses he gets, he can explain away easily (see above), and on the whole, everything within Severus must repell him on a subconscious level. I'd say that this is how Severus manages to be so excellent as a spy. It is love indeed, in a twisted way, with the genuine grief springing from it, that drives Voldemort out again before finding anything significant.

I thought he was good at it. With Harry there was the differents. As we now know Harry had a part of Voldermorts soul in him and I think that makes a big differents there.

I know this will appear off-topic, because it refers to the question how Occlumency works in the first place, but the other threads have been removed to the History of Magic section already :blush:

In another thread, we started to discuss Occlumency - this is the post I mean:



I find the idea very good, I must say. However, there were objections, too, and pretty sensible ones -

The ideas presented in these posts gave me the notion that Occlumency must work on different levels. I don't think it likely that Voldemort regularly rampages directly through his minions' brains like Severus does in OotP with Harry's. He might do so every now and then, when he's already got a certain suspicion, like when he wants to find out what the heck Lucius did with the diary. All in all, it's a time-consuming business though, searching his followers brains 'just so' is like flicking through the catalogue of a huge library and hoping to come across something of very particular interest. You've got to start with a certain 'key' at least.

However, most of the time, I believe that he is rather 'sensing' when talking to his lot, figuring out if they're lying, or concealing something while speaking. He would sense thus if a certain 'basic emotion' is suffusing the other person's brain, like Harry can sense his anger (mostly), or occasional joy about something. This brings me to Severus now.

What emotions are reigning him? A hazard a guess here - it's love (for Lily), guilt (for having had a hand in her death), remorse (for having a hand in her death, again), and utter frustration (about everything, really - let's face it, he's leading a very frustrating life). Now, with Severus' skill for Occlumency in the first place, how can he present these matters to his master?

Love - we often heard that Voldemort doesn't understand the first thing about it anyway.

Guilt and remorse - hey, he's a supposedly loyal follower of Voldemort, yet he never searched for his master, made himself comfortable under Dumbledore's wing, even actively counteracted the master's scheming (like in PS). Loads to feel guilty for, from Voldemort's point of view.

and finally, frustration - everyone with eyes and the tiniest bit of emphathy can easily imagine countless reasons for Severus to feel frustration, right? His job - his students - his position as a spy (against Dumbledore, who's no layman in Legillimency either) - darned Harry Potter - did I mention his rotten job, he, with all his talent, reduced to the excistence of a lowly teacher - the list could go on endlessly.

Now we heard fairly often how thoroughly arrogant Voldemort is. He staunchly believes that it is impossible to deceive him to begin with. He's also likely to fall for sycophantic behaviour (or what else did he ever see in old Lucius, eh?). RavenStar's post gave me the idea that he might shrink away from dealing with Severus' mind too closely because the 'basic tone' is just depressing, if that's a word. It's like staring at a very gloomy, depressive picture for too long. The occasional glimpses he gets, he can explain away easily (see above), and on the whole, everything within Severus must repell him on a subconscious level. I'd say that this is how Severus manages to be so excellent as a spy. It is love indeed, in a twisted way, with the genuine grief springing from it, that drives Voldemort out again before finding anything significant.


Well reasoned Fleur. I do see what you mean - but my impression was that it was being suggested that Snape actively thought about Lily and his feelings for her in an effort to block out Voldemort via Occulmency. So my responses were speaking to that notion.

Your analysis seems to be more based on the feelings/emotions that would naturally reside in Snape and how/why they might help his occulmency.

So...lol...I am not sure how to address this. So I'll just go for it. :)

Going with the first one: in the main, Snape, while teaching Occulmency to Harry indicated that he should 'shut down his memories' completely and to not 'wear his emotions and feelings on his sleeve' - so my idea is that Snape too would practice this ideology before Voldemort and only allow those things to show which he wanted the dark lord to see.

So I don't think the grief, frustration, guilt, remorse or his emotions for Lily would be something he would allow the dark lord to see at all. I think he would close those thoughts down completely as he was trying to get Harry to do.

That is why I indicated that his ability to do so might come from growing up and hiding those emotions, insecurities and vulnerabilities that would open him up to sympathy or ridicule.

For example, when Sirius made an unpleasant comment about his hair and James about his undergarments in SWM, Snape did not become outwardly hurt or pained by it - instead he became outwardly angry. Assuming those comments did actually hurt his feelings on some level, he did not show it. Instead he began swearing at them with curse words, reaching for his wand, issuing a curse and saying 'you just wait.'

That is not to make any type of judgment on his comments or actions, but rather to say that it was this type of blocking out of unpleasantness (the hurt he may have felt) and allowing only those thoughts he wished to be in control to come to the fore (anger, etc.).

That was just one example - but Snape did the same thing when Lily asked about his parents arguing - that likely pained Snape as well, but he pushed that thought downward and gave a nonchalant answer.

Plus I would agree that the things Snape would have to learn to close down were all of the emotions that you spoke of, because they would, as you indicated, have some affect on him mentally/emotionally and he would not want to leave that open to Voldemort.

So it was doing this type of thing while growing up - plus actual practice of occulmency at some point, I think that assisted him to be able to drop whatever thought he wanted (and whatever emotion he wanted) from his thoughts when he faced Voldemort.

I am not certain about the idea of "love" being able to block with respect to Occulmency - I do appreciate your closing paragraph, but in the examples that we have of love blocking out: it is Voldy taking over Harry's body and him throwing him out completely when thinking of his love for Sirius. But Harry was not trying to hide those thoughts, he was allowing them to infuse his mind, body and soul. I am certain Voldy could have easily read his mind at that point. So I don't think that would work with Snape in Occulmency as he could not allow those feelings and emotions you mentioned to infuse him or they would be read - and I don't think Snape could think about all of that without their relation to Lily - do you see what I mean? I didn't put that entirely clearly, so if it is confusing I will explain more. :)

Of course this is just a working theory and open to debate :)

I think I understood what you mean, and reading your post, I found myself nodding. I'm not sure what I think though, because I still haven't figured out for myself how this whole Leggilimency/Occlumency thing is supposed to work in the first place.

I think you are absolutely right in your analysis how Severus, even as a child and teen, was already capable of blocking out hurt, for example, and plaster it up with something else. I can easily relate to this, I think that's how many of us got through their schooltime. I certainly did.
This technique would surely later on have helped him with his Occlumency on every level, too. I mean, there are those people who manage to fool lie detector tests, too - it's a technique that one can learn with loads of practise, and Severus started practising early, against Voldemort, the living lie detector. I guess what I meant was that feelings, memories etc, are never fully gone, they're just 'hidden' somewhere, or covered up by a more pre-eminent feeling in the given moment (instead of showing hurt, one can, for the sake of example, get really worked up and become ourwardly furious instead). (Did you happen to see the movie 'The Eternal Sunshine Of The Spotless Mind'? There are large bits about the phenomenon, that don't have much to do with the questions at hand here, but are interesting still - about 'hiding' memories and make them unaccessible against intrusion)

However, my point really was that there must be a difference between Voldemort's 'usual' performance as a Legillimens, when casually talking, and serious mind-intrusion (like practised against Harry by Severus in OotP). I would think that Severus IS capable of hiding and blocking his true emotions in such a case (because after returning to the graveyard in GoF, there must have been some very harsh interrogation), but that Voldemort wouldn't deliberately linger longer than necessary because of what I wrote in my last post. I thought that he - being not acquainted with feelings like true love, or genuine grief, has some difficulties to even get what he might be looking at, if he could recognise it at all. All Voldemort knows is hate, disdain, anger, rage, joy and satisfaction (yes, indeed, when a plan works out like he wants, or when Dumbledore has died - I believe he must have been truly happy that night), disappointment, frustration. I think he isn't even able to feel despair - he doesn't strike me like the type for it. He's not one to think about giving up, and he's also too arrogant to believe he could be at his end, ever.

So, while rummaging through Severus' brain, he comes across a 'colour' suffusing things (that colour being a kind of trace of these hidden things (that can be hidden, but not removed entirely - if that was possible, gosh, Severus could have had a happy life, just wiping his mind clean!), and that colour which he doesn't recognise, doesn't appeal to him (Think: dull greyish brown). He can explain it somehow, so he doesn't think much about it, because those thoughts that Severus actively offers to him are so much more interesting to him (like Severus' vivid dislike of Harry) and dispell his doubts far enough.

Does that make any sense....?

I think I understood what you mean, and reading your post, I found myself nodding. I'm not sure what I think though, because I still haven't figured out for myself how this whole Leggilimency/Occlumency thing is supposed to work in the first place.

I think you are absolutely right in your analysis how Severus, even as a child and teen, was already capable of blocking out hurt, for example, and plaster it up with something else. I can easily relate to this, I think that's how many of us got through their schooltime. I certainly did.
This technique would surely later on have helped him with his Occlumency on every level, too. I mean, there are those people who manage to fool lie detector tests, too - it's a technique that one can learn with loads of practise, and Severus started practising early, against Voldemort, the living lie detector. I guess what I meant was that feelings, memories etc, are never fully gone, they're just 'hidden' somewhere, or covered up by a more pre-eminent feeling in the given moment (instead of showing hurt, one can, for the sake of example, get really worked up and become ourwardly furious instead). (Did you happen to see the movie 'The Eternal Sunshine Of The Spotless Mind'? There are large bits about the phenomenon, that don't have much to do with the questions at hand here, but are interesting still - about 'hiding' memories and make them unaccessible against intrusion)

However, my point really was that there must be a difference between Voldemort's 'usual' performance as a Legillimens, when casually talking, and serious mind-intrusion (like practised against Harry by Severus in OotP). I would think that Severus IS capable of hiding and blocking his true emotions in such a case (because after returning to the graveyard in GoF, there must have been some very harsh interrogation), but that Voldemort wouldn't deliberately linger longer than necessary because of what I wrote in my last post. I thought that he - being not acquainted with feelings like true love, or genuine grief, has some difficulties to even get what he might be looking at, if he could recognise it at all. All Voldemort knows is hate, disdain, anger, rage, joy and satisfaction (yes, indeed, when a plan works out like he wants, or when Dumbledore has died - I believe he must have been truly happy that night), disappointment, frustration. I think he isn't even able to feel despair - he doesn't strike me like the type for it. He's not one to think about giving up, and he's also too arrogant to believe he could be at his end, ever.

So, while rummaging through Severus' brain, he comes across a 'colour' suffusing things (that colour being a kind of trace of these hidden things (that can be hidden, but not removed entirely - if that was possible, gosh, Severus could have had a happy life, just wiping his mind clean!), and that colour which he doesn't recognise, doesn't appeal to him (Think: dull greyish brown). He can explain it somehow, so he doesn't think much about it, because those thoughts that Severus actively offers to him are so much more interesting to him (like Severus' vivid dislike of Harry) and dispell his doubts far enough.

Does that make any sense....?

Yes it makes sense :) I agree with what you are saying. However, I wonder if even a dull greyish brown emotion remained for Voldemort to see and ignore. The reason I would question that is because Remus and Dumbledore both proclaimed that Snape was a master occulmentalist. It would seem that he would be able to totally block out all traces of anything he did not wish Voldemort to see.

On the other hand, you make an excellent point: can anyone really ever totally block everything out? That I cannot answer either. But in my head I imagined Snape being able to do so due to his master status in the art. I could see someone who does not have quite his ability (say they are very very good at it, but just below his level) having that problem. But if he mastered the art, it would seem that Snape would be among those who could tightly close off every lasting trace of those thoughts/emotions that he didn't want another to find.

Now Harry was able to break through to Snape's thoughts. However, I do believe that is because Snape totally did not expect for Harry to be able to use legimens against him in the least. Harry had shown himself to be completely unadept at it and so the last thing Snape believed was that Harry would be able to do so - so it is possible that Snape was not even practising occulmency at all at that moment (Harry wasn't supposed to be practising legimens in any case). However, Voldy is a master legimens and I think Snape would be prepared to use his occulmency to its fullest potential - as a master - and as such would be able to totally shut down all hints, traces and even mere whispers of any emotions/thoughts he didn't want the dark lord to see.

So that would be the only question I would have on that part of the theory because if we figure traces of thoughts/emotions were left in Snape's head, it would seem to go against the idea of him being a master at it. A master would seem to be able to completely take advantage of the benefits of occulmency.

Again, it may be that the maximum occulmency simply does not allow for this and traces remain. In that case I would agree with your idea that Voldy would see traces of things he did not understand - or was not interested in - and ignore them (as he likely did if he saw Lucius' love for narcissa, etc.). :)

PS. I didn't see the Eternal Sunshine movie, but it sounds interesting. I'll have to check it out. :)

Yes it makes sense :) I agree with what you are saying. However, I wonder if even a dull greyish brown emotion remained for Voldemort to see and ignore. The reason I would question that is because Remus and Dumbledore both proclaimed that Snape was a master occulmentalist. It would seem that he would be able to totally block out all traces of anything he did not wish Voldemort to see.

On the other hand, you make an excellent point: can anyone really ever totally block everything out? That I cannot answer either. But in my head I imagined Snape being able to do so due to his master status in the art. I could see someone who does not have quite his ability (say they are very very good at it, but just below his level) having that problem. But if he mastered the art, it would seem that Snape would be among those who could tightly close off every lasting trace of those thoughts/emotions that he didn't want another to find.

[...]

So that would be the only question I would have on that part of the theory because if we figure traces of thoughts/emotions were left in Snape's head, it would seem to go against the idea of him being a master at it. A master would seem to be able to completely take advantage of the benefits of occulmency.

Again, it may be that the maximum occulmency simply does not allow for this and traces remain. In that case I would agree with your idea that Voldy would see traces of things he did not understand - or was not interested in - and ignore them (as he likely did if he saw Lucius' love for narcissa, etc.). :)


yes, it really comes down to that question, and like I said, I haven't even much of an opinion how the entire Occlumency business is supposed to work in detail. I suppose I think of it like a lie detector with flash images (if one can NOT block the mind). As you know, I'm always ready to grant Severus every talent ;), and I absolutely believe that he IS brilliant in this discipline, but I still didn't interpret him to be 'invincible' by Voldemort's powers either. A master, yes, absolutely, but it doesn't follow for me that he's perfect. Oh, well, it doesn't matter so terribly much, I reckon.


Now Harry was able to break through to Snape's thoughts. However, I do believe that is because Snape totally did not expect for Harry to be able to use legimens against him in the least. Harry had shown himself to be completely unadept at it and so the last thing Snape believed was that Harry would be able to do so - so it is possible that Snape was not even practising occulmency at all at that moment (Harry wasn't supposed to be practising legimens in any case).
Totally with you on that one. Yes, I don't think he seriously expected Harry to invade his mind. On the other hand, we should not forget that he DID remove the most crucial bits, to be on the safe side. Or...


However, Voldy is a master legimens and I think Snape would be prepared to use his occulmency to its fullest potential - as a master - and as such would be able to totally shut down all hints, traces and even mere whispers of any emotions/thoughts he didn't want the dark lord to see.
... actually, your post gave me an idea. (This is really just sketching up some vague thoughts going through my head) - Why on earth did Dumbledore think it a good idea to have Severus of all persons teaching Harry? And I don't mean the (now) obvious emotional muddle. At the end of OotP, we learn that Dumbledore didn't want to teach Harry because he was afraid of the connection between the boy and Voldemort, and that Voldemort could somehow invade Harry and make him attack Dumbledore. That's canon, right?

So - Severus is supposed to be Dumbledore's 'secret weapon' and in deep danger as a spy. So - there is a risk of Voldemort seeing through Harry's eyes (or Dumbledore wouldn't be scared to look into Harry's eyes) - and while doing this, Severus is teaching the kid Occlumency...? Wouldn't that seriously compromise him at once, and for good?

I got the idea because reading your post, I suddenly wondered if Harry managed to overcome Severus because of his connection to Voldemort, or the Horcrux in his forehead, and like he 'inherited' the Parseltongue capability, he could have inherited the Legillimency capability, too.

Or did Dumbledore only claim that his fear was the reason for not teaching Harry personally? And because he already knew that he would finally send Harry to this one's death, he didn't want to get so close to Harry?


PS. I didn't see the Eternal Sunshine movie, but it sounds interesting. I'll have to check it out. :)

I'm very biased here, because it's my ABSOLUTE FAVOURITE movie, so I can only recommend it very, very warmly. It's visually wonderful, got a fabulous script, some great acting (one must not shrink away from Jim Carrey on the cover - it's not a typical JC movie, and he's really good in this one). Ah, I'm gushing again :blush:

ya occlumency i supposed to be when u empty ur mind of emotion, those burst of anger werent really controllign emotion

ya occlumency i supposed to be when u empty ur mind of emotion, those burst of anger werent really controllign emotion

Well, it's supposed to be a capability that can be practised, and mastered. That doesn't mean that a person capable of it uses it 24/7, does it? (I imagine that to be rather unhealthy, too - constantly suppressing every sort of true feeling must be very damaging on the long term)

yes, it really comes down to that question, and like I said, I haven't even much of an opinion how the entire Occlumency business is supposed to work in detail. I suppose I think of it like a lie detector with flash images (if one can NOT block the mind). As you know, I'm always ready to grant Severus every talent ;), and I absolutely believe that he IS brilliant in this discipline, but I still didn't interpret him to be 'invincible' by Voldemort's powers either. A master, yes, absolutely, but it doesn't follow for me that he's perfect. Oh, well, it doesn't matter so terribly much, I reckon.


Yeah, I could go either way on this also. I don't know why I had the idea that a master occulmens would be able to totally block thought - I guess because I figured if those little brownish greys could come through, other things could possibly slip through as well. I didn't mean it in terms of infallability - anyone could slip, even a master. I only meant what the 'norm' would be. There would always be a chance of a slip up of course. But I can't put my finger on the exact canon that made me think the art of occulmency could be so perfected - I just came away with that feeling. But as I say, I am open to the idea that it might not be that comprehensive :)

Oh and good point about Harry's connection with Voldy allowing for his ability with the legimens spell. He hadn't been taught even the basics of it, so it would seem that would have assisted him in doing so. I would give some credit to Harry's natural ability as a magician of course, but without training, he shouldn't have even of had an inkling on how to go about it. The connection may have given him that inkling and he just took it from there and invaded.

And you bring up yet another good point. Snape did extract his memories, so he must have realized that Harry might be able to get access to his mind. However, I really think he doubted it very much. If Snape was practising Occulmency, I doubt Harry would have seen all that he did. I think he caught Snape unawares because Harry was struggling to block his own mind at the time and Snape was concentrating on the Legimens spell, not the occulmency spell. Lots of food for thought there though!


... actually, your post gave me an idea. (This is really just sketching up some vague thoughts going through my head) - Why on earth did Dumbledore think it a good idea to have Severus of all persons teaching Harry? And I don't mean the (now) obvious emotional muddle. At the end of OotP, we learn that Dumbledore didn't want to teach Harry because he was afraid of the connection between the boy and Voldemort, and that Voldemort could somehow invade Harry and make him attack Dumbledore. That's canon, right?

So - Severus is supposed to be Dumbledore's 'secret weapon' and in deep danger as a spy. So - there is a risk of Voldemort seeing through Harry's eyes (or Dumbledore wouldn't be scared to look into Harry's eyes) - and while doing this, Severus is teaching the kid Occlumency...? Wouldn't that seriously compromise him at once, and for good?

I got the idea because reading your post, I suddenly wondered if Harry managed to overcome Severus because of his connection to Voldemort, or the Horcrux in his forehead, and like he 'inherited' the Parseltongue capability, he could have inherited the Legillimency capability, too.

Or did Dumbledore only claim that his fear was the reason for not teaching Harry personally? And because he already knew that he would finally send Harry to this one's death, he didn't want to get so close to Harry?

Great point! I think you might have found a loophole in that part of the story. Of course DD was not infallable - but that would have been a huge error on his part. If Voldy saw that through Harry's eyes, Snape would have to do a lot of fast talking to get himself out of trouble - I am not sure he could have. I don't think JKR thought of that bit, unless there is some other piece to the puzzle we are forgetting. Brilliant observation :tu:



I'm very biased here, because it's my ABSOLUTE FAVOURITE movie, so I can only recommend it very, very warmly. It's visually wonderful, got a fabulous script, some great acting (one must not shrink away from Jim Carrey on the cover - it's not a typical JC movie, and he's really good in this one). Ah, I'm gushing again :blush:

Its okay, I totally understand. My favorite is the old movie 'The Werewolf' - so you can imagine all the flack I get from my friends when I gush about that - they laugh me out of the room, lol.

... actually, your post gave me an idea. (This is really just sketching up some vague thoughts going through my head) - Why on earth did Dumbledore think it a good idea to have Severus of all persons teaching Harry? And I don't mean the (now) obvious emotional muddle. At the end of OotP, we learn that Dumbledore didn't want to teach Harry because he was afraid of the connection between the boy and Voldemort, and that Voldemort could somehow invade Harry and make him attack Dumbledore. That's canon, right?

So - Severus is supposed to be Dumbledore's 'secret weapon' and in deep danger as a spy. So - there is a risk of Voldemort seeing through Harry's eyes (or Dumbledore wouldn't be scared to look into Harry's eyes) - and while doing this, Severus is teaching the kid Occlumency...? Wouldn't that seriously compromise him at once, and for good?

I got the idea because reading your post, I suddenly wondered if Harry managed to overcome Severus because of his connection to Voldemort, or the Horcrux in his forehead, and like he 'inherited' the Parseltongue capability, he could have inherited the Legillimency capability, too.

That's an interesting idea, and I hadn't thought of that either, but then again I'm one of these people who takes the books as they are but i'm learning through CoS forums to question everything and come up with my own opinions & theories :lol:

I think that Dumbledore probably had a few reasons for getting Snape to teach Occlumency to Harry. Firstly the aim was to teach Harry how to shut out Voldemort, not how to look into someone else's head. So they probably felt that there wouldn't be too much of a risk of Voldemort seeing Snape teach Harry occlumence. Also Voldemort believed at this point that Snape was his spy in Hogwarts and that Snape would do what Dumbledore asked so as to keep up the pretence.

I think Dumbledore also had a hidden agenda in trying to get Harry to understand Snape. He couldn't do it openly, but he might have believed that this would be their chance to understand each other and figure out that they were really both on the same side.


I think Snape was probably so good at Occlumency because of his childhood. A lot of children who are abused learn to hide their feelings and emotions from people, showing a tough outer exterior. Because of his childhood Snape probably learnt to hide his emotions at an early age. He also had to hide his emotions in relation to Lily from the other death eaters who wouldn't have let him get away with being in love with a muggle born. All these factors probably contributed to him become one of the best at Occlumency.

Well, I'm going to go completely speculative here.


We know from Snape that the process of Occlumency is to close down the mind, erase thought, suppress emotion.

We could very well infer that to practice Legilimency, one must open the mind, welcome thought and emotion from the source (another person).

Snape, as we have seen, is exceptional at masking his (true) emotions when he needs to. There are times when he is absolutely, coldly emotionless, less so than we've ever seen Voldemort.

Severus Snape literally seemed to have an on/off switch for emotion. And when absolutely nothing is there to sense, not a single shred, no amount of skill in Legilimency will be able to bring it out, because it simply isn't there. Snape took Occlumency and, seemingly, perfected it. No matter how great the Dark Lord may have been, when up against a complete and utter lack of emotion and thought, he would never have found anything. And he would have attributed that to there being nothing to find, rather than to successful Occlumency.

Well, I'm going to go completely speculative here.


We know from Snape that the process of Occlumency is to close down the mind, erase thought, suppress emotion.

We could very well infer that to practice Legilimency, one must open the mind, welcome thought and emotion from the source (another person).

Snape, as we have seen, is exceptional at masking his (true) emotions when he needs to. There are times when he is absolutely, coldly emotionless, less so than we've ever seen Voldemort.

Severus Snape literally seemed to have an on/off switch for emotion. And when absolutely nothing is there to sense, not a single shred, no amount of skill in Legilimency will be able to bring it out, because it simply isn't there. Snape took Occlumency and, seemingly, perfected it. No matter how great the Dark Lord may have been, when up against a complete and utter lack of emotion and thought, he would never have found anything. And he would have attributed that to there being nothing to find, rather than to successful Occlumency.

That's a very good point. And i totally agree with it. I'm just going to go one little step further and say that when Voldemort killed Lily i think that was the point when Snape became in a sense, emotionless, because she was the only person he had ever been able to show real emotion to and with her dead he had no one. While Snape & Dumbledore were to a point friends, and Snape admired Dumbledore, I don't think that Snape would have been able to show him emotion.

Well, I'm going to go completely speculative here.


We know from Snape that the process of Occlumency is to close down the mind, erase thought, suppress emotion.

We could very well infer that to practice Legilimency, one must open the mind, welcome thought and emotion from the source (another person).

Snape, as we have seen, is exceptional at masking his (true) emotions when he needs to. There are times when he is absolutely, coldly emotionless, less so than we've ever seen Voldemort.

Severus Snape literally seemed to have an on/off switch for emotion. And when absolutely nothing is there to sense, not a single shred, no amount of skill in Legilimency will be able to bring it out, because it simply isn't there. Snape took Occlumency and, seemingly, perfected it. No matter how great the Dark Lord may have been, when up against a complete and utter lack of emotion and thought, he would never have found anything. And he would have attributed that to there being nothing to find, rather than to successful Occlumency.


Fantastic ideas. I love it. Ive always thought that Voldemort wasnt that great at occlumency since Snape was able to hide so much from him. Its very well thought out speculation, and I agree with it 100%.

When I was reading DH I thought it was just the unique bond that made it easier for Harry to look into Voldemort's mind.

Now Harry was able to break through to Snape's thoughts. However, I do believe that is because Snape totally did not expect for Harry to be able to use legimens against him in the least.

Exactly. IIRC, Harry used a Shield Charm to defend himself, which bounced Snape's own Leglimency spell back at him, allowing Harry to enter his mind.

What I want to know is why Occlumency was an effective strategy for Snape against Voldemort in the first place. Snape knew at once when Draco was using it against him in HBP, so - even taking General_Ridley's speculations as fact, even assuming Snape is the greatest Occlumens who ever lived - shouldn't it be apparent to whomever he's blocking that that IS what he's doing? :hmm:

What I mean is, I understand why it works in most cases - if you're being, say, interrogated by the Ministry or whatnot and you're refusing to cooperate, you could still use your Occlumency skills with relative impunity, because the people questioning you already assume you are lying and expect it. They might try to break you down via various means, but the knowledge that you are lying would not in and of itself get you killed. But in Snape's case with Voldemort, in his role as double-agent, the realization that he is withholding information at all would likely mean his death.

Thoughts?

Perhaps this is what makes Snape such a good Occlumens, that he can pretend to be open during a specific attack on his mind, like the kinds of attacks he did on Harry, but still hide the memories that would get him into trouble. I think normally, however, a Legillimens will simply try to extract certain feelings, ones that give away lies for example, but not attempt to rifle through the mind looking for specific memories. In this case, Snape could lie to Voldemort without Voldemort realizing he is employing Occlumency.

Harry's connection to Voldemort is unique. I don't think you should judge Voldemort's occulmency skills based on Harry's ability to enter Voldemort's mind. I'm sure Voldemort is quite good at it.

Perhaps it was only Voldemort's exceptional ability at occlumentcy which prevented Harry from getting far more information far sooner.

I agree with that. Having a part of Voldemort's soul in him makes Harry share his mind and emotions. It does not reflect on V.'s Occlumens powers. It must be all but impossible to close your mind to a part of yourself. So yes, V. must have been pretty good at Occlumency to be able to "shield" himself for so long. Except when he was feeling very strong emotions, then his control slipped and Harry could "read" those emotions without even wanting to. When he deliberately "invaded" V.'s mind, then V. could offer very little defense, especially if he was preoccupied with other things.

Now the connection between Harry and Snape (without the Pensieve) is something else. Other members have made pretty good points about that Occlumency lesson when Harry was able to see into Snape's mind.

oh i think voldemort was pretty much like harrr unable to close his mind and mangae his emotions properly

Originally Posted by Fleur du mal
At the end of OotP, we learn that Dumbledore didn't want to teach Harry because he was afraid of the connection between the boy and Voldemort, and that Voldemort could somehow invade Harry and make him attack Dumbledore. That's canon, right?
...
Or did Dumbledore only claim that his fear was the reason for not teaching Harry personally? And because he already knew that he would finally send Harry to this one's death, he didn't want to get so close to Harry?
I think it's quite likely that DD foresaw a possible accident such as what happened with Harry seeing Snape's memories.

I think that the more noble side of DD knew it was vital that Harry not know until the proper time that he had to die to kill the Horcrux. While the less noble side of DD was horrified at the thought that Harry might be able to see the stuff about Ariana and Grindelwald. I'm sure he feared this would not only diminish Harry's personal feelings for him, but the loyalty to him that Harry would need, to stay on the path he needed to stay on.

I don't think that Harry could see into Voldemort's thoughts because Voldemort was bad at occlumency. He was probably extremely good at it, but there are other factors to look at. The first was that Harry was an unintentional Horcrux, so the part of Voldemorts soul in Harry was linked to Voldemort's main soul. It's amazing actually that Voldemort didn't realise that Harry was a Horcrux because he should have recognised the connection having made so many horcruxes himself. He undoubtedly knew a lot more about Horcruxes than any other wizard would.

The second factor is the blood connection. While Voldemort didn't understand how important the connection was, I think that he might have believed that Harry could see into his thoughts because of the blood connection.

Voldemort had never carried out occlumency and legilamency(spelling is wrong I know!:lol:) against someone who was a horcrux and who had a significant blood connection to him, so I think that in this case, the fact that he was good or bad at occlumency, don't really come into it as there was very powerful magic going on that had nothing to do with occlumency.

Finally I believe that Voldemort would have been arrogant enough to think that once he stopped looking into Harry's thoughts that Harry wouldn't be able to look into Voldemorts thoughts either. And it is quite possible that because Voldemort was becoming stressed and frustrated trying to locate the elder wand and then checking on his horcruxes towards the end of the book, that he didn't realise Harry was seeing into his thoughts.

Instead of writing a whole new post I want to agree with what you said.

I also want to add that it is quite possible Harry was just a good Legimens and a sucky Occulmens.

I dont think it is necessary to be good at both. Harry helped by his Horcrux connection with Voldemort was able focus and SEE into Voldy's mind.

Reading other people may very well be easier than erasing your own thoughts.

Exactly. IIRC, Harry used a Shield Charm to defend himself, which bounced Snape's own Leglimency spell back at him, allowing Harry to enter his mind.

What I want to know is why Occlumency was an effective strategy for Snape against Voldemort in the first place. Snape knew at once when Draco was using it against him in HBP, so - even taking General_Ridley's speculations as fact, even assuming Snape is the greatest Occlumens who ever lived - shouldn't it be apparent to whomever he's blocking that that IS what he's doing? :hmm:

What I mean is, I understand why it works in most cases - if you're being, say, interrogated by the Ministry or whatnot and you're refusing to cooperate, you could still use your Occlumency skills with relative impunity, because the people questioning you already assume you are lying and expect it. They might try to break you down via various means, but the knowledge that you are lying would not in and of itself get you killed. But in Snape's case with Voldemort, in his role as double-agent, the realization that he is withholding information at all would likely mean his death.

Thoughts?

You have to remember that Snape was a much older and highly skilled Wizard. He had probably reached a level in Occlumency where he could replace the real memories with false ones. (remember what Slughorn tried to pull on DD)

Draco was just starting to learn and may be the best he could do was put up a blank slate.

There is a connection between Voldemort and Harry's mind, established the Halloween Voldemort attempted, and failed, to kill Harry. It is this connection embedded deep within the roots of consciousness that allow Harry to enter Voldemort's mind somewhat willfully.

What Harry did, seeing into Voldemort's mind, had nothing to do with Legilimency. It was always unintentional. These different types of "mind reading" may also be different in terms of being able to block it with Occlumency. Harry wasn't exactly good at Occlumency, so there really isn't a good comparison to state, but we do see at the time of Dobby's death that by concentrating more on digging Dobby's grave and his pain that Dobby had died, it was like he could sort of keep Voldemort at bay, pretty much the opposite of what Occlumency is based on, keeping your mind closed and feelings in check. So, I'm not sure if Occlumency would be much help for Voldie, especially with two different types of very powerful magic at work.

^^^I beg to differ. It was not always unitentional. Harry did start to purposefully see what Voldemort was up to.

In Half-Blood Prince, Harry had not been disturbed by his scar, Dumbledore explained: "Lord Voldemort has finally realised the dangerous access to his thoughts and feelings you have been enjoying. It appears that he has now employing Occlumency against you' (Chapter 4, book 6)

And in book 7, Harry entered in Voldemort thoughts easily without any effort!

The link between Voldie and Harry is so special because of Harry being a Horcrux that you can't judge their respective skills at Occlumency or Legilimency using the usual standards.

Voldie was probably very good at both. Snape feared those skills in Voldie all through his life as a double agent. Snape's own Occlumency skills were stupendous, come to think of it.

What I don't understand is why the bond didn't really work in reverse. Why couldn't Voldy see into Harry's mind when Harry was emotional?We must remember that they weren't sharing each other's souls. LV hadn't got a piece of harry's soul in him, so why should the connection function two-way? LV could possess his living horcruxes Nagini and Harry, but when did he ever have access to Harry's thoughts? Yes, he says "No, he's not lying, bella. I can see it in his worthless mind.", but in this occasion Harry and LV were in the same room, so it was probably common legilimency he could have performed on anyone present.

What I want to know is why Occlumency was an effective strategy for Snape against Voldemort in the first place. Snape knew at once when Draco was using it against him in HBP, so - even taking General_Ridley's speculations as fact, even assuming Snape is the greatest Occlumens who ever lived - shouldn't it be apparent to whomever he's blocking that that IS what he's doing? :hmm:

My guess is that, once you get to a certain level of Occluding ability, you have enough power and finesse to do it without the appearance of doing it... sort of like the final stage of mastery in ballet comes after mastery of all the technical stuff... not only can you do all this intensely difficult stuff, you do it and make it look natural and easy. :)

Voldemort was a psychopath. I doubt he liked keeping his emotions and rage in check. Once Dumbledore was dead and he was taking over the ministry, he probably didn't feel the need to block Harry out all the time. Note that Harry didn't sense him at all when being transported out of Privet Drive, not even while Voldemort killed Moody and attacked Kingsley (and Harry can usually tell when Voldemort kills, considering the emotions the killing curse requires). He only felt his scar hurt when Voldemort got physically close to him and Hagrid.

Voldemort lost complete control however when he found out that his horcrux secrets were known. After that, Harry could penetrate his mind with ease, simply closing his eyes and relaxing(like he would when asleep). Whenever Harry escaped Voldemort, he usually had to fight to keep him out because the emotions were so overpowering.

I believe that Harry was able to see Voldemort's actions and experience his feelings because of the horcrux inside him. Voldemort didn't have a piece of Harry's soul inside him. It wouldn't work both ways.

Harry's ability to see Voldemort's feelings increased over the years. At first Harry just felt pain when Voldemort was close. He had dreams of past events (the events at Godric's Hollow). When Voldemort regained a body (the baby-like creature in GoF), however, Harry was able to experience actual events as they were happening (the dream of Frank Bryce's murder). When he regained a full body, Harry then started feeling Voldemort's extreme emotions about events as they were occurring. In HBP though, Harry no longer had visions. Dumbledore explains this as Voldemort using Occlumency against Harry. So what caused the reversal in DH?

It seems Voldemort is losing control of his emotions, his intellect. He's breaking down. Is Voldemort's loss of control due to the extreme depths in which he has traveled into dark magic? It doesn't seem like Occlumency would work in the first place. He never felt Harry penetrate into his mind until the snake attack against Mr. Weasley. Did he actually feel this penetration, or did he infer that it happened because of subsequent event at the ministry that night?

As for Snape and his use of occlumency against Voldemort, I wonder if Snape used the pensieve to extract certain memories before visiting Voldemort. He did with Harry and there was little reason to expect Harry to be able to break through Snapes thoughts if Voldemort was unable to do so.

It seems Voldemort is losing control of his emotions, his intellect. He's breaking down. Is Voldemort's loss of control due to the extreme depths in which he has traveled into dark magic? It doesn't seem like Occlumency would work in the first place. He never felt Harry penetrate into his mind until the snake attack against Mr. Weasley. Did he actually feel this penetration, or did he infer that it happened because of subsequent event at the ministry that night?

It seems that Voldemort did feel Harry's presence in his thoughts when the snake attacked Mr. Weasley. However, his capacity to feel and sense of detection had been somewhat diminished due to the unstable nature of his soul by DH. This would explain why his Occlumency attempts stopped working and was also unaware of it, let alone sensing Harry's intrusion into his thoughts.

We must remember that no amount of Occlumency or Legilimency would work between Harry and Voldemort because their bond is like no other. Harry contained a part of Voldemort's soul hence its power is far greater than any deliberate attempt to block each other from their minds. My problem here is Snape. I knew that he was an excellent Occlumens but I had no idea that he was good enough to block out Voldemort who is said to have been the most accomplished user of Legilimency.

wasn't it beacuse in the 6th book ol' voldie was sane.. just a crazy, murdering, psychopath. and in the 7th he really did start to crack up?