Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis

We're trying something a little different on this version of the thread. Rather than a general discussion on the relationship, we're going to focus on how the relationship evolved and the impact that it had on both *cough cough this mean Lily too guys cough cough* characters. Including Lily. Anyone notice a theme here?

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

As you can see from the questions we want to focus this thread on the relationship as revealed by canon and how the characters were effected by it. Your personal reaction to the relationship is not on topic here, nor is a literary analysis of the relationship or a discussion of why JKR wrote things the way she did. Our hope is that re-focusing this on canon and on BOTH characters including Lily will allow a more pleasant discussion with fewer mod notes and thread closures.

Please read REVISED: Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108021) , In-Thread Moderator Warnings (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=110755) , and How to have a pleasant conversation on any topic. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108019) before posting in this thread.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
I think he was reluctant because he had no other friends and was a bit shy. Unfortunately, I don't think he would have bothered with Lily at that point in time if she had not been a witch - I don't think it was necessarily a flaw of his character, but more something instilled into him by his pureblood mother.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?
I think she was excited to find someone else like her and see that she wasn't just some weirdo, which I bet she may have inwardly thought seeing as for all she knew, no one else out there could do what she could do.
I don't know how friendly she would have been to him if he didn't mention magic to her because he obviously lacked social skills, and at whatever age they were when he approached her (10? 11?) I don't think she was yet the person she grew up to be. Kids aren't often sympathetic to other kids who seem rude or mean.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?
I do think they were equals in the friendship - just because he was initially more familiar with their magical abilities doesn't mean Lily didn't have much to bring to the table, and it doesn't mean that was all Severus had to bring either. I think Lily captured him with her ease of manner and kindness. I think Severus was kind to her in turn, and it fueled their young friendship.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
I think that once they went to Hogwarts, it put a strain on the friendship because for one, it removed what had brought them together - being the only magical kids they knew. I do think they both had to work to keep the friendship going. You don't stay friends for five years without work, especially when you are separated so often and begin holding differing views.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?
I think being in Gryffindor made Lily bolder over the years and perhaps a little unforgiving of weakness in others, which (to me, it seems) she saw in Snape being unable to let go of his Slytherin buddies and their friendship. She seemed unable to see that while she was his friend, he had to live with people who held a certain view and would probably have been "punished" for straying from the norm there. I think Slytherin didn't so much change Severus as it sort of beat down other qualities he had. I think that for a lonely child, approaching Lily to introduce himself was courageous, and it was traits like that one that sort of got smothered a bit while he was at school.
If they had been sorted into houses that didn't seem to be at such opposing ends of what values were held dear, I think their friendship would have survived. Likewise, if sorted into the same house, I think it would have been worlds better for their friendship.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?
I believe it was a combination of differing interests and the need to belong. It seems as though Lily was pressuring Snape to behave in one manner and the people he had to live with were pushing him in the opposite direction. I think the final straw was not so much the mudblood comment as the change that probably took place in Severus once Lily walked away from him. Over time, friends can forgive, but I doubt he was in a position to really know that. It seems as though he was shot himself in the foot and didn't realize that he still had options.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?
Oh yes, of course, to both questions. To say there was no other choice is in essence to say there is no choice at all since there is only the one option. I think Lily could have been more understanding. I think Severus could have placed more importance on Lily's friendship than his own comfort in his living quarters. I think that at the time, she lacked the insight to see how difficult things were for him, and he lacked the courage to stand up for what was right.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?
If their friendship had been saved, I do not think that he would ever have become a Death Eater. I think it was a lack of Lily's positive influence that led him to finally let go of anything holding him back, and also I think he was desperate to prove himself to her.
A lifelong friendship? Oh, yes, I think so. A romantic relationship? I think yes on that, too. If they had gotten closer instead of further apart, I think romantic feelings would have been inevitable. It is my opinion that they were already there on both sides but were just stunted by the turn the friendship took.

Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?
I think it was the need to feel that she wasn't alone- and after Petunia's outburst, the need to know that she wasn't a freak for having powers that other people didn't. Whether she'd have been as friendly is a moot point, because he probably wouldn't have approached her if he hadn't had the pretext of informing her about the magical world. She clearly didn't notice him before that- not out of rudeness, but because she simply didn't know who he was; if I have my measure of Eileen Snape correct, she'd have homeschooled her son and kept him mostly away from Muggle children as far as possible- which would explain how Lily didn't know Snape before the day in the park, despite their being the same age (and therefore, in the same year had they gone to school).

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

You know, I doubt he would have had any real interest in her had she not been so obviously magical. Her beauty may have caught his eye initially, but I doubt that alone would have attracted him for long.


2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

Well, that's a no-brainer. She was probably confused about some of the things she could do and no one in her family was in a position to explain what that gift meant. With Petunia so outspoken in a negative way, Snape must have seemed like a breath of fresh air to Lily.


3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

Snape was the teacher and mentor. Lily was the apt and very talented pupil. I don't think the relationship began as equals, but I do think equality entered into the equation very soon after they arrived at Hogwarts. Snape went from a big fish in a very small pond to a small fish in a much larger body of water when they reached the Hogwarts campus.


4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

It's obvious that Lily worked to maintain it. Her Gryffindor friends didn't like him and couldn't see why she continued to be friends with him; she admits to making excuses for him and his behavior for years.

Whether Snape worked as hard to merit such support is questionable. As he was preparing himself for a career as a death eater, I tend to doubt it.


5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

I think their houses had totally different effects on them. Snape came to school intending to sort into Slytherin, already knowing "more curses than half the kids in seventh year," and to use those two "assets" to further his desire to become a death eater.

Lily, on the other hand, would have discovered the distaste the other three houses had for Slytherin and also the reasons they were looked at askance. I don't think anyone can deny that Slytherin earned its reputation as the House of the Bad Boys. It must have taken a great deal of courage for Lily to continue their friendship, and to continue to make excuses for him as long as she did.


6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

It appears to have come over a period of time. I don't see Snape's interest in becoming a death eater as "budding." I think he came to school with that express desire and followed it relentlessly. He has always struck me as a fixed personality.


7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

I think Lily made the correct choice. I don't think Snape had the flexibility to change his course. He was a pretty singleminded person after all.


8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

I believe Jo said there could have been more, if Snape had not been so steeped in the dark arts. That's a mighty big "if," though. I'm not sure Snape could have changed; it's iffy whether or not he even had the ability in him to make such a sweeping change.

From Lily's perspective, consider that death eaters were feared much the same as terrorists are in the real world. Why on earth would any sensible girl want to bind herself to a man like that? I don't buy the theory that Lily didn't do enough to help Snape get over all that. That was his choice and it was not her responsibility to change him, or to dangle herself as a carrot if he managed to get it done.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think he knew at that age that he was an outcast. He didn't wear the right clothes, he was a wizard and he was shy. I don't think he'd ever had a friend prior to Lily. Also, I believe that even at this age he was attracted to her. She was a beautiful young girl, and represented the good and light that Snape had never encountered before.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

I'm not sure. He was the one who enlightened her to magic. She had finally found someone who was the same as her and who could inform her of why she could do what she did.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

I think it was equal. In the beginning Snape was the one who began the friendship, knowing all about the magical world, and most importantly their magic meant they had something in common. Once at Hogwarts, everyone has this in common. I think as long as they stayed kind towards each other they were friends. Also, they were both very intellegent, and had an interest/were good at Potions.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

I really wish Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor. Once he went into Slytherin he was immediately placed with a crowd of soon-to-become Death Eaters. I think if he had stayed in Gryffindor he would have stayed on the right track. Then Lily and Snape could have been more friendlier, and people wouldn't have questioned their friendship as much.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

Romantic future most definitely. Who knows, Harry's dad could have been Snape...:eeep:

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think Snape was the shy outcast and he definitely adored Lily from afar. He probably was a bit insecure as a child about approaching her,totally understandable from the glimpses of his home life. I am not sure Snape would have been interested in Lily had she not been magical. I think that is one of the reasons he felt connected to her in the first place. He was not alone.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

I think Lily wasn't concerned with looks and lack of money as Petunia apparently seemed to be. I think Lily would have probably been friendly with Snape regardless of him telling her about magic. Although that definitely opened up a whole new world for her and gave them something in common.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

I think Snape was more the wise one obviously and he was somewhat of a mentor for Lily at first. I think Lily was the more passionate one of the two. She definitely had views on right and wrong early on.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

I think they did although I think being in different houses helped slowly pull them apart.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

I think being in Slytherin was not a good thing for Snape because of the death eater friends he picked up. Lily being in Gryffindor was also a thorn in their friendship being as those two houses were such rivals. If they would have been the same house I believe the story would have been drastically different. Snape and Lily I believe their friendship would have probably grown to romance.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

I think Snape's growing interest in the dark arts was definitely a big factor in their relationship falling apart with the mudblood incident being the final insult.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

Yes I think had Lily forgave Snape he would have changed for her. I think Snape felt there was nothing left once she ended the friendship. Snape could have tried to listen to her a bit more when she expressed her worries about his friends.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship

I think that either applies. I can definitely see both. For me personally being that Snape was so deeply in love with her I believe had he made different choices there would have been a romance and future for them.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think Severus was reluctant because he was afraid of her reaction. He would likely have experience of being thought odd and having trouble making friends, no immmediate charm or confidence there, and because he really, really wanted to make friends with her, he would have been scared she would reject him. I think his interest was entirely because she was magical, they had something in common of which he was proud, I think he was impressed with her skills and wanted someone to talk to about it all.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

Learning she was a witch and there were other people like her would have been reassuring for Lily and led to her seeking information from Severus. Slughorn says later she was friends with many people so I think her instinct would have been friendly, unlike Petunia, even from the first, but the knowledge Severus brought about the magical would must have been very compelling.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

I think it would change over time. Initially Severus got to play more knowledgable 'big brother' but once they reached Hogwarts that would quickly change. They were then 'firsties' together, learning their way about the school and its rules, lessons, people etc. As they grew older it becomes more complicated, as they start to exhibit different interests and values. The friendship had more importance in Severus's life I think, given that he was poor at making friends while Lily had lots, she was popular, but that doesn't mean the friendship itself was asymetric.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

I suspect that a lot of their 'together' time would have been in the school holidays away from Hogwarts. When I moved to secondary school there were 3 first year classes into which went some girls who had previously been in the same class at primary school. A few tried to keep their friendships but the reality of being in class all day with new people stopped all earlier friendships, at least during school hours. I think both Severus and Lily must have worked at the friendship to keep it going for five years, as all lessons and even meals are taken with your house.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

Lily would have learnt about the traditional house values from scratch and Severus would have learnt something that may have challenged his earlier views or reinforced them. Obviously if they had sorted into different houses then different qualities would have been emphasied and promoted by their housemates. Lily talks about defending their friendship to her Gryfindor mates, but I am sure Severus also had to defend the friendship in Slytherin, its just that he may not have had friends to lose, just more or less teasing/bullying.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

I think actually I blame the house system. The differences they had were real but they never got an upressurised space to work through them away from outside influence of others.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

At one level yes, if there isn't an alternative you havent made a choice right?:lol: Lily thought Severus had made a choice - to become a death eater - so rejected him, but my sense is that he had not yet made that choice and if told it was their friendship or being a death eater might have chosen the friendship (leaving aside whether that would be good or bad behaviour from either party). Instead, after Lily's decision to end the friendship, he then chooses to become a death eater. At this point I'm not sure if Severus could save the friendship and Lily didn't want to.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

Severus could never had become a deatheater if he was Lily's friend. He might still have lost the girl to James though!

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

[W]e want to focus this thread on the relationship as revealed by canon


The only four ways the relationship could have been salvaged was for 1) Lily to accept Snape's interest in dark magic, his interest in hanging around with his dark arts friends and acceptance in his budding interest in Lord Voldemort - and stopped speaking about them. Or 2) Snape would have had to reject all of the things mentioned. Or 3) Lily would have had to develop an interest in all of those things mentioned. Or 4) with Lily unaccepting of their differences, they continued with the friendship as was.

None of those things were a possibility according to canon except #4. However, if they had managed to save their friendship with Lily unaccepting of their differences, the friendship would have ended in total disaster none the less. There would have been constant arguments and accusations, constant demands by both and heated, unfriendly conversations between them. Thus the friendship would have been incredibly unhealthy and draining for the both of them. It would not have been able to develop romantically and it would never have lasted past Hogwarts.

In addition, Lily had a crush on James and visa versa according to JKR, so there would be that factor involved which would make Lily and Snape's rocky friendship all the more terrible. When Lily and James began to date in 7th year, Snape and Lily's relationship would be under such emotional strain, I am not certain how it could continue to function. Snape would have become even more incoherently angry than he did in the memory scene when the mere mention of James as anything other than an arrogant toerag sent him reeling into a state of high emotional stress. Both would likely experience deep emotional trauma attempting to keep the friendship intact and frankly I think Lily's friends would have done all in their power to drive a stake in the friendship (especially her boyfriend James).

When Snape joined the DE's and Lily the Order - a friendship between them would have been impossible - so that is why I say it could not have possibly lasted past their attendance at Hogwarts.

All and all I think this question asks for speculation about a circumstance made impossible by the canon.

All and all I think this question asks for speculation about a circumstance made impossible by the canon.
Well, that's pretty much why Snape/Lily are a "what if" scenario. Different choices had to be made in order for other things to be possible, which of course are going to be different from the canon. ANY change from the original story is straying away from canon. That's part of the fun of wondering "what if?" :cool:

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

Fear. If you've been treated horribly by your peers (and Petunia's words seem to imply that Severus was), then approaching one would always be seen as a risk. Almost to the point where hiding from people becomes a reflex action. For a stringy little outcast like Snape, to approach anyone is risky.
And no, I doubt he'd have been interested in her if she wasn't magical. He wouldn't feel much of a kinship with her. As it was, they both shared something "special".

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

At first, you mean? Lily's initial interest in Snape was probably in the stories about the magical world he'd tell her.
I don't think it would be at all likely that he wouldn't tell her about the magical world. He obviously cared what she thought of him. Anyway, in the bizarre off-chance that he didn't, then no.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

Before Hogwarts, it seems as though Snape has more power. Lily is mostly asking questions to which he has the answers.

But things start changing even before the sorting. On the Hogwarts Express, Lily pushes Severus away after her fight with Petunia and he is coming to care more and more. By the end of the train scene, it's Lily who "takes command" and leads Severus away from James Potter and Sirius Black.

By the time they hit 5th year, nearly every word out of Severus' mouth is designed to keep himself closer to Lily, either by trying to excuse his own behavior or to distance her from the Marauders. He has come to care far more than she has, and as a consequence, she has much more power over him. If she lets fall one hard word, she crushes him. ;)

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

I can't see any reason why Severus wouldn't try to maintain the friendship, especially once he discovered he was in love with Lily. And if Lily truly believed that Severus was her best friend, I think she'd have tried as well.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

"How did Slytherin change Snape?" lol, gee, I wonder. :rotfl:

Anyway, one flaw about Gryffindor is the canonization of that house. Gryffindor has all these amazing wizards like Dumbledore. They're the moral warriors, they're just so right about everything, blah blah blah. In contrast, Slytherin is supposed to be the slimy, self-serving evil house. The cave-dwelling Grendels to Gryffindor's Beowulfs.

[not needed]

But, really, with all these DE kids wandering the halls to make a bad example for their house and with the war growing closer and closer, that would be the sort of mentality Lily would have been exposed to day in and day out. No wonder she was so quick to point out the flaws in all of Snape's friends while failing to see that it is (maybe, just maybe) a bit wrong to write James' bullying behavior off as "oh, he's just arrogant", [off topic]

Another house would definitely have made things different. A Ravenclaw Lily would have pointed out the growing evidence that Severus would be endangering people like her by joining the DEs. She then would have trapped him with something like "What if You-Know-Who told you to kill me?" A better plan to help him think through things, IMO. But then again, I'm a total Ravenclaw myself. :lol:

In the same house, things would have gone much more smoothly. Severus could have fit in any house, as would Lily, I think. If they were both in either Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff, far from any DE kids or Marauders, there would never be any budding DE!Snape or righteous-and-secretly-crushing-on-Potter!Lily.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

I think it's "death knell".
Really, the sorting was kind of the beginning of the end. After that, events happened just as they would have logically occurred. Only by continuous effort could anything have been done. And by effort I mean Severus avoiding the DE kids from day 1 and Lily not even bothering to acknowledge James.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

Oh, this question is tough to answer. There are thousands of different choices they could have made that would have changed everything: Choice of house, choice of friends, choice of words, choice of actions.....the list goes on. :lol:

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

Um....
Ok, I can't even see a possibility of any of that ever occurring if Snape had the Dark Mark on his arm. So I'm just going to assume that through some twist of fate, Mulciber, Lucius, Avery, et al. were never within ten feet of Sev. :p

So.
Yes, I think that even if James and Lily ended up together, Severus would have been able to just deal with his presence or find a way to speak to Lily when he wasn't around.
If there was no James in the picture, and Severus wasn't a DE...yeah, romantic possibilities abound. And Iggy squeals with fangirlish joy.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

Because he didn't have any experince communicating with other children, let alone other magical children. He was fascinated to find a fellow, and he wanted to wait for the best moment - this is mentoned in the book, it says that it was clear that Snape had planned their first conversation for a long time.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

Yes, she would have. They were just two children living in the same town who had something in common. That's how friendship usually starts, so I think it was a perfectly normal beginning for them.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

Yes, it was. They were the same age, with same abilities, only Severus knew about the mgical world and Lily didn't. I think it was meant to be shown as a genuine friendship between two people who care for each other. In that sense, they played the same role - that of a friend.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

Of course. It wouldn't have held on for so long if they hadn't. Hogwarts did affect it, becaue they entered ifferent circles in their own houses, but what really changed things was the fact that Severus developed feelings for Lily which seemed to be one-sided. I think this is what really set things in motion so that in the end the friendship was broken. Which was very sad.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

I don't think it would have, because, as I said, I think it was the romantic interest that really changed things, more than anything else. It was that which prevented Severus from listeing to Lily's advice regarding his "evil" friends. If he hadn't been romantically interested in her, if he had had perfectly friendly feelings, then they would have had a much better and more productive dialogue, and would have been able to overcome house influences. That's what usually happens with strong friendships.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

I think I answered this above - it was the unshared romantic interest.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

Well, of course, there always is an alternative, but their feelings - Sevrus's love and Lily's disapproval of the way he was taking - set things in motion in that way and that's what happened. It would have been a real miracle if Severus had suddenly started to think resonably about his feelings and realised his activities would only driv Lily away; or if Lily had understood his motivation to get engaged in Death Eater activities and tried to reason with him acordingly. They were just kids, and they did their best, but they had no way of looking at the situation from a dispassionate point of view and make the decisins we might feel were right or appropriate. They were inside the whole thing, and can hardly be expected to be able to see it from an outsider's point of view.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

They might have had either, or both, but things didn't go that way. I think the way they went is wholly understandable though, if very sad.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think that Snape was highly insecure, and shy. I don't think that Snape would have shown any interest in Lily if she hadn't been magical. She too would have been 'just a muggle' to him, pretty as she was. Lily being a witch was what attracted him to her. It's not like Lily's the only pretty girl in the village.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

I think that Lily accepted his friendship because she was fascinated by the Wizarding world. She must also have been relieved and delighted to find out that she was not alone, that there were others like herself. And, Snape was also very kind and caring with her. But, as we saw, it was the information that Snape had which fascinated Lily. They'd never have met up if it hadn't been for that.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

I think that Snape brought less to the friendship than Lily did. Lily saw him as a friend, her best friend. But Snape didn't see it that way. He saw their friendship as a stepping stone to a romantic relationship. Snape had only ever saw her like that, and it is clear from their meetings that he wasn't even listening to her most of the time. After four years of being friends with her, Snape was unable to understand why she detested the Dark Arts, and why she didn't like the company he kept. Snape had to make a conscious effort to not treat her like a possession, as we see from the 'let you' comment.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

The fact that they were sorted differently shows us the vast difference in their personalities. They'd have had to work on their friendship to keep it up. Of course, Snape also had a vested interest in keeping the friendship close.

From what Lily tells Snape about her other friends never understanding why she even talked to him, I think that we can conclude that Snape was not someone they'd consider befriending. His appearance and his apparent lack of personal hygiene definitely contributed to that, but the point that Lily keeps emphasizing is his obsession with the Dark Arts. There's also the fact that Snape treated all other muggle-born badly, addressing them as 'mudbloods'.

I find it interesting that a person like Lily was willing to overlook such flaws in Snape's character, even after her repeated attempts to change him were completely unsuccessful. It seems possible that Lily had always hoped that he would change one day, and come to extend the kindness and caring that he showed to her to others as well.

The problem I have with this idea, however, is that Jo told her readers on multiple occasions, to never fall for the 'bad boy'. This seems to be a variation of that, with Lily overlooking Snape's faults, and hoping he'll change. Nevertheless, it was a bit irresponsible of her to have overlooked his mistreatment of her fellow muggle-born friends, just because he was nice to her.

It seems clear that Lily had never considered the idea that Snape loved her romantically, and that this was the reason why she was getting preferential treatment from him. Lily saw him only as a friend, nothing more, and tried her best to be as good a friend to him as he seemed to be.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house?

I don't think that their houses changed them all that much. They were sorted there according to their personalities. Snape had always been ambitious, and Lily was always brave.

Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

Considering that they both managed to be friends even when they were in rival houses, I don't think that the friendship would have changed that drastically. Not all death eaters are Slytherins after all. Snape was always interested in the Dark Arts, and he'd have pursued it no matter what house he was in. As for Lily, I can't imagine her ever approving of the Dark Arts, whatever house she was sorted into.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

The death knoll for the friendship was that Snape never really wanted to be Lily's friend in the first place. He wanted to be her lover, and that poisoned their friendship from the very beginning. It was doomed from the start. Lily never realized Snape's true nature at first, and later on, when she did see it, she didn't accept it, even when her other friends pointed it out to her.

I don't think that Snape ever really tried to understand Lily, and that was why their friendship deteriorated over the years. The little things that Lily found out about Snape were adding up, until the mudblood insult dealt the final blow. I got the impression that Lily was being Snape's friend out of a sense of obligation than anything else.

We see that Snape keeps reminding her that they're best friends, that she's supposed to support him, and so on. It's clear that such comments made Lily feel guilty, as if she was being ungrateful to the person who had been her guide and friend in the wizarding world. During their break up, Lily tells Snape that she'd been making excuses for him for years. I'd wondered then as to why she'd made excuses for him for so long, and this seems to be a good explanation.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

Yes, there was. Snape could have chosen to try and understand Lily better, and change himself, rather than working to remove the obstacles by discrediting her potential suitors. I felt that Snape was actively working o ensure that Lily would never have a real choice, whether it be in friendship, or a romantic relationship. He was not forcing her per se, but by eliminating all competition pre-emptively, he was hoping that Lily would be his by default, because there would be no one else she could turn to. In the end, the person who was willing to mend his ways got the girl, and IMO, that's the way it should always be.

As for Lily, no, I don't think there wasn't anything she could have done. She'd tried her best to reform her friend, and even covered for him when she shouldn't have. What Snape was doing, what he wanted went against Lily's moral values, and Lily wouldn't have been Lily if she chose to overlook those.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

IMO, Their friendship was built on lies, for a start. Thus, it's debatable whether there was a real friendship to be salvaged, when Snape didn't really want her as a friend.

As for their ever having a chance at a romantic relationship, yes, there was as much a chance for them to be in a relationship as any boy and girl who were friends. Lily did like him as a friend, and there was a definite chance that it could grow to something deeper. But then, I'd say that Harry and Hermione had the same chance. They too are good friends, after all, and closer friends than Snape and Lily were. In both cases, however, it was not meant to be. As Sirius says, Lily did like James, and Lily's reactions to it being brought up by Snape, and Jo's own words confirm it. So, I'd say that Lily's heart already belonged to James, even though she was in denial about it.

Thus, what I feel would have happened, if Snape had not gone over to the Dark, was that they'd have been life-long friends. Snape would never have revealed his true feelings to her.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think Snape desired to approach Lily and make friends with her, maybe a little desperately. He was very shy, awkward and self-defensive to approach Lily. That might make him a little reluctant but he was not really unwilling.

The second question, I think no. Lily's attraction to him was primarily due to her being magical as he was. A lonely kid was desperately eager to find someone of the same group.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

First she was a friendly nice girl. And considering little Snape's unattractive appearance and annoying acts, I think the main reason she accepted his friendship was that Snape was the first one to confirm her about her magical identity and introduce her to the magical world. So the answer to the second question is probably no.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

I think they were equals because neither was weaker than the other. At least on schoolwork, they were two top talented students in Potions, and I believe both of them also did well in other subjects as well.
But as to other aspects, I think the friendship a little weird: A beautiful popular girl fancied by many boys and a greasy annoying lonely boy who was always bullied and laughed at and also took interested in dark magic. I don't really understand how the two people got along with each other outside classroom. :hmm:

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

As the 3rd question, I really don't understand how this friendship functioned. Only the beginning was quite reasonable and comprehensible to me.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

Well, environment took a huge role in the process of grow-up. And I think the two different environments were one of the several decisive factors that they finally broke up.
If Snape hadn't joined DE, then the whole thing would be another story.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

This kind of friendship was never stable, let alone developing into a romantic relationship. Although I deeply respect Snape's love, it was never functional. Plus I never saw any hints showing that Lily once had feelings for Snape.
The break-up was due to a combination of many reasons, not a single one: their uncompatible personalities, Snape's interest in dark magic, the mudblood insult, James's involvement, Snape's DE friends...etc.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

I think Jo's answered this question. Snape showed great remorse, and he definitely would chose another road if he could return to the past.
But in my opinion even if Snape had stayed away from the DEs and behaved well, Lily would still not choose him as a boyfriend or a husband. (Poor Snape...I love the character but I have to be honest:upset: ) His love was destined to be hopeless and tragic from the very beginning. But I think that the hopeless love showed even much more power and depth.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

As above, a romantic future? Probably not. They were not suitable to each other. A lifelong friendship, maybe...If they two kept making efforts to maintain it.

I still wonder whether or not Lily Evans had feelings for Snape. But generally I held a pessimistic attitude towards their relationship.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think there were probably a couple things going on. First, I don't think Snape was good at social stuff. He was odd-looking as a child and he seemed embarrassed by his clothes. Second, he might also have been forbidden to mingle with random children because he was magical and they were not. I imagine it would have been difficult for most magical children to play in a muggle park, and Snape was no different.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

I think Lily was genuinely nice and sensed that young Snape was trying to be friendly. I do think the reason she became friends is because he could tell her about being magical. Lily didn't seem to need another friend - she seemed perfectly happy with Petunia, but Snape could tell her about the magical world and Petunia could not.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

hmmmm. I think each brought something to the friendship, but I wouldn't call it an equal friendship. I think it was a friendship based on need - Snape didn't have many friends and Lily was one of the few people who was nice to him, whereas Lily needed the information Snape had to give. Lily's need was a one-time thing: once Snape gave her the information she needed, her benefit from the friendship was over. On the other hand, Snape's need was on-going - his need for a friend would not end. That's where I see an imbalance in the friendship. Maybe I should qualify that a little bit. Snape wanted he and Lily to have an exclusive friendship, but Lily saw Snape as one of many friends she had. That's where there was an imbalance.

4. How did Hogwarts affect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

Couldn't resist correcting the spelling! Sorry! I think Lily worked to maintain the friendship to spite the prejudice against Slytherins. She would have hated the stereotypes and in defiance would have maintained their friendship. I think she also saw something in Snape - that he was lonely, and he was her first introduction to the magical world.

Snape of course wanted to stay best friends, so of course he worked to maintain the friendship. Unfortunately, he was too attracted to Dark Magic and his friends in Slytherin. He was a little arrogant and refused to consider that his choices were wrong. Instead, he considers Lily to be in the wrong, and works to correct what he considers errors in her thinking. Snape never tried to see things from her point of view - as from the beginning when he first told her about the magical world - Snape had to be the information-giver, the Hermione, in their relationship. And like Hermione, Snape has a hard time being open to different perspectives.


5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

I'm not sure that the Houses changed either, but most especially Lily. I saw little difference in Lily other than normal changes from growing up. However, Snape's bad qualities were enhanced and his good qualities were diminished. He became more arrogant and fixed in his prejudices. As a 9 or 10 year old, he already thought that Muggles were less important than wizards and witches, and being in Slytherin confirmed that belief. At first, he separated Lily and Petunia because Lily was magical, but by their fifth year he was capable of caling Lily a Mudbloood.

I think Snape and Lily's friendship would have been different only if they had both been in Gryffindor. If Lily and Snape were both in Slytherin, Lily would never have accepted the young Death Eaters' position, but I think Snape would still have gone that way. Their friendship would have been over for the same reasons in ended in the book.

6. What was the death knell for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

I think the Mudblood insult was the final event, but the friendship was on the skids for a while, and it was just a matter of time before it ended. Snape insulted Lily in front of a lot of people and demonstrated that he valued his Slytherin association more than his friend.

If the Mudblood incident had not happened, they might have limped along as friends, but it would have been over when Lily started dating James. Snape would never have accepted that, and he would have forced Lily to choose. She would have chosen James, and because he had backed her into a corner, Lily would have had no choice but to end their friendship.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

Snape had many opportunities to make different choices and it seems he chose wrong every time. He had choices before he entered Hogwarts, but because of those choices he was sorted in to Slytherin. Once he was in Slytherin, he continued to make the choices that put strain on his friendship with Lily. And it wasn't that he didn't know. Lily scolded him when he called her sister "only a Muggle". If Snape had chosen at that moment to get to know Petunia and put aside his prejudices, he might have been sorted into Ravenclaw or Gryffindor. Instead, in his arrogance he convinced himself he was right and Lily was wrong, and he was destined for Slytherin.

I don't think there were many choices Lily could have made. Of course she could have stuck with Snape and overlooked his Death Eater activities, but I would have lost respect for the character. Lily was written to show that the magical world has to stand up against prejudice, and if she would have stayed friends with Snape, her message would have been diminished.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

I really think their only means to stay connected, whether through romance or friendship, was if Snape had been sorted into a house other than Slytherin. He didn't have the strength of character to stay immune from the attractions of the Death Eaters, and even if Lily had been in Slytherin he would have made the same choices.

It's hard for me to imagine a romantic relationship between the two, but Jo has said it was possible, so she knows the characters better than I do.

It's hard for me to imagine a romantic relationship between the two, but Jo has said it was possible, so she knows the characters better than I do.

I think the fact that Jo herself (who is quite critical of Snape) has said this should convince most people - I'm genuinely surprised at the amount of debate that still goes on about whether the two characters could ever have become romantically involved. Of course it was possible - many, many things in the world have the potential to happen! The odds were stacked against Snape and Lily developing a mutual love, I think, from the time of their being parted at the Sorting, but the possibility existed.

When we each come into the world there is the potential for so many different futures for all of us - only one of which will happen. This is the case when we consider boyfriends, girlfriends and spouses. There is never just one person in the whole world who is right for us - just because we end up happily coupled with one individual doesn't mean that we wouldn't have been equally happy with someone else, had circumstances been different, or different choices been made.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

Judging from Petunia's comments about 'that Snape boy' and his appearance, I think it is safe to say that he was not well-received by most kids. He was likely bullied and ostractized in the muggle world as well. Hence the reason he was so anxious to finally leave for Hogwarts and the wizarding world - he apparently thought that he would be more acceptable there.

This might also be why he was attracted to Lily. He is already leery of muggles - in general he has found that they do not treat him well. So there is no reason for him to be interested in Lily if she wasn't magical.

But we can see that Snape was ill-equipped for social interactions. Therefore, it is no surprise that Snape was reluctant to interact with Lily at first. I think mostly because he's afraid that Lily might treat him just like everyone else did. And that once he HAS made contact IF she rejects him then his hope of gaining a friend would be lost. This is why Harry notices just how disappointed Snape looks when Lily leaves with Petunia. His hopes felt squashed.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

That's hard to say. IF Remus' speech in moviePoA was meant to be true about Lily, then we are lead to believe that 'she saw the good in others when they didn't see it in themselves'. IF this was true, then perhaps she accepted Snape because she could see past his funny clothes and shyness.

But I think she was also intrigued by the info Snape could provide about the wizarding world. She doesn't seem to need help with understanding magic. She was more advanced at that point than Sev. But there really wasn't any other way for her to learn what the wizarding world was like otherwise - at least not until she got her letter.

As to why they got along so well - I think the answer is in Slughorn's rememberance of Lily as 'cheeky' when Harry followed youngSev's humorous remark about bezoars. In other words, I think Lily found Snape's humor similar to her own - at least at the beginning.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

I don't think it was a particularly 'equal' friendship. Sev was much needier than Lily. He might have been the source of information pre-Hogwarts, but that role eventually ended once they got there. By then, I believe they were linked by a similar sense of humor and an interest in learning. But Lily found herself to be rather popular at Hogwarts and so did not 'need' Sev as much as she might have.

Additionally, it appears Sev found some acceptance in Slytherin - I'm still shocked by this - I cannot believe Lucius accepts Sev just for being sorted into Slytherin (even tho' he has a muggle name). For youngSnape, this would be a unique experience - as I think that Lily had been his only friend before then. It must have felt like his hopes for the Wizarding World (and his hope for a better life than back in the muggle world) were being realized.


4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

They would have had to work at their friendship - there are limited opportunities for them to interact and they would need to actively pursue their friendship to keep it going. I think that they probably spent a bit of time in the library together - just based on Hermione/Krum as a mirror.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

I think Gryffindor tended to make Lily a bit 'self-righteous'. I think she fell for the 'all Gryffindors are 'good'' line. She saw James as 'arrogant' but still thought him 'good' underneath. She basically accepts without questioning that James saved Snape - even tho' her 'best' friend says it wasn't that cut-and-dried.

For Snape, I think that Slytherin encouraged his dislike of muggles - something that originally was based on how he was treated in the muggle world, but that changes into a dislike of muggle-borns as well (exception Lily). I think pre-Hogwarts Snape was quite open to muggle-borns. He would have accepted anyone who accepted him. But then that's part of why he accepts Slytherin opinions. He's trying to fit in - he feels he finally found where he belonged. Unfortunately fitting in with Slytherins clashes with fitting in with Lily.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

I still have not seen any indications that Snape was the big 'dark arts' enthusiast. The only hint I see is 'sectumsempra' - which I still contend was copied down from somewhere - when it came to the 'Prince', Harry was generally correct - at least until he ran smack into the thought that Snape was the boy he had liked as a friend.

Even when Lily was complaining about Mulciber, she says nothing about anything Snape is doing wrong or 'dark' - just that she thinks he has bad taste in friends. She doesn't even complain that Snape was yet using the term 'Mudblood'. This tells me that Snape was NOT using that term yet when that memory took place - otherwise she would have brought it up.

So, Snape WAS changing during 5th year - at some point earlier in the year, Lily's only problem with Sev is that he was hanging out with the wrong people. People whom he would seem to have been hanging out with in earlier years as well. So the real problem is either that his friends are acting differently - that they have suddenly become worse. OR that Lily didn't have as much against them before, but has suddenly seen them in a different light.

Considering her comment about Snape's ungratefulness to James and Snape's stated reason for snooping on Remus (to prove the Marauders are not as 'wonderful as people think' - in particular his worry that they would 'fool' Lily), I think Lily had changed in 5th year just as much as she believed Snape had. Lily was beginning to listen to the Marauders - she may have THOUGHT she didn't, but they were beginning to affect her beliefs and her opinions (at least that's the way I see it - BOTH Lily and Snape were changing in 5th year)

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

There are always different choices - but I think the different choices began several years before. To 'fix' the relationship - Snape would have needed to drop any friend he had other than Lily back when she complained about Mulciber. But the fact that he could not tell her about Remus' condition and that Sirius had tried to kill him using Remus would still have put a huge block in the way of their friendship. Such a big secret between them would eventually have an effect. But Lily would also needed to have seen the Marauders much more clearly and had to have seen that Gryffindors were not inherently 'good'

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

I think they would have had a chance at a romantic future IF Snape had sorted into Ravenclaw. The Gryffie belief that Slytherins are inherently 'evil' and that Gryffs were inherently' good' was really too much to fight against for Lily. I don't think she ever saw through it.

When we each come into the world there is the potential for so many different futures for all of us - only one of which will happen. This is the case when we consider boyfriends, girlfriends and spouses. There is never just one person in the whole world who is right for us - just because we end up happily coupled with one individual doesn't mean that we wouldn't have been equally happy with someone else, had circumstances been different, or different choices been made.

I think this is so right on, because this is the exact impression I got after reading The Prince's Tale, and it became more confirmed after JKR said Lily could have loved Snape romantically. I know some else said this before, but I think there's been an impression throughout the books of James and Lily being this somewhat super ultimate ideal couple because of what happened to them and what they did for Harry. Like this whole "destined to be" thing between them. That might be part of why Snape/Lily is still causing so much of a debate. The whole ideal between James and Lily is now diminished, because it's now proven that if different people had made different choices, things would have turned out differently. Hence making it more like real life. :)

I think this is so right on, because this is the exact impression I got after reading The Prince's Tale, and it became more confirmed after JKR said Lily could have loved Snape romantically. I know some else said this before, but I think there's been an impression throughout the books of James and Lily being this somewhat super ultimate ideal couple because of what happened to them and what they did for Harry. Like this whole "destined to be" thing between them. That might be part of why Snape/Lily is still causing so much of a debate. The whole ideal between James and Lily is now diminished, because it's now proven that if different people had made different choices, things would have turned out differently. Hence making it more like real life. :)

I respect your opinion, however, I don't think that Snape's friendship with Lily in any way diminishes her future relationship with her husband or lessens the notion that they were able to find, what for them, was an ideal relationship.

Canon (JKR) characterized Lily as a very popular girl like Ginny. She could have had her pick of a number of young men and the possibility of her eventually falling in love with any of them existed. For example, perhaps she dated Frank Longbottom before he was with Alice; Lily may have even had romantic inclinations toward him - but for whatever reason, the relationship didn't work out. If it had, things might have gone differently. She may have experienced this with a number of young men. But her ultimate decision was to remain in the romantic relationship she had with James.

So I don't think it took knowledge of Snape and Lily's friendship to allow people to understand that Lily's life could have turned out differently if she had made different choices along the way (or the young men she knew had) while she was making friends with and/or dating other young men.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think he hesitated because she was a Muggleborn, so he couldn't figure out how she would react when he approached her to tell that she was a witch. She might not have believed him, he didn't know her at all so I guess he was scared of how she would react. I don't think that he would be interested in her if she had not been magical, he told her that it wouldn't make a difference that she was Muggleborn because he saw the magic she could do. I think this means that Snape thought very highly of her magic and that's how he recognized her presence in the very place.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

I think she would still be friendly to him if he hadn't told he rabout the magical world because that's the kind of person Lily is. She is not judgemental or biased like Petunia. But it is certain that she wouldn't find Snape so interesting if he hadn't told her about the wizarding world.

Sorry but I'm afraid I'll have to edit and continue later.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
Snape, to me, fits the role of the loner throughout the series. As a young boy he is ten years old, and is very odd. He appears to be poor, and is wearing very abnormal clothes, even for wizards, so many people are put off by him. He had no friends, and seemed unsure of how to present himself to a fellow friend, regardless of the fact that she was a witch. However, if she wasn't a witch, I do not think Snape would have approached her. We saw Snape's attitude toward Petunia - "only a muggle" and so he wouldn't have approached Lily, who would have been only a muggle too.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?
Lily knew she was different from Petunia, she could do things that Petunia couldn't do, and although Lily thought they were funny and exciting, Petunia thought they were freakish and odd. When Snape stepped in and explained to Lily why she could do these things, she wanted to know more, she wanted to know what the wizarding world consisted of, everything about it. So as Snape and Lily talked about the wizarding world, and Lily got informed, a friendship grew. If Snape and Lily were to arrive at Hogwarts on September 1st, having not met, a relationship never would have formed between them, they were two opposites. And the only thing they had in common was a shared past before Hogwarts.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?
Snape had the role of the teacher, he knew so much that Lily didn't and Lily loved learning about the Wizarding World. Lily was the friend, Snape didn't have any friends, and Lily was the one who was his true friend. THe relationship was an equal footing, until Snape aligned himself with the Death Eater Youths. Snape began to change, and Lily tried to change to accommodate him, but it was a one-way effort, Snape thought he was changing to get Lily to like him better, but it was the opposite, and he pushed her away, because he wasn't in tune with her wants and her feelings.


4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
I do. Although it was a flawed attempt. I truly believe they were destined not to be friends forever. Snape seemed to take for granted the fact that they were friends and wanted more so he pushed to impress Lily. While Lily realized their friendship would be on the rocks when her House-Mates started questioning her about Snape, and she told them they were merely acquaintances. It seemed that Snape wasn't able to communicate well with Lily about what she really wanted, and Lily just tried to keep the friendship alive.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?
Neither Gryffindor nor Slytherin changed Lily or Snape. The people who they were (and were not) sorted with changed them. Lily's friends didn't understand why she was friends with Snape, the odd Death Eater Youth. And Snape's friends didn't understand why he was friends with Lily, the Mudblood. They were in opposing Houses, they were supposed to hate each other, yet they didn't. If they both were sorted to Gryffindor, Snape never would have been tempted to join the Death Eaters, not call Lily a Mudblood, which would have eased the stress on the relationship. Although, like I said, Snape wanted to be in Slytherin, and the Sorting Hat takes into perspective what the people want. It was a flawed friendship from the start.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?
All of the above. They were different, they grew apart, they didn't communicate, they didn't realize what was in the best interest for the other. There was so much wrong with their relationship. Stress was added to it after the Sorting Ceremony, and from then it just piled on.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?
Snape could have realized what Lily wanted out of him. Lily could have loved Snape, if he changed for the better. But he thought power would impress her. But Lily didn't see it as power, she saw it was aligning with a group that saw her as inferior. Lily could have tried to give Snape another chance, although I think she had given him many in the past.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?
If they had just managed to save their friendship and nothing more, they would have been lifelong friends. If Snape realized his own tragic flaw, and changed for the better, changed for what Lily really wanted, there could have been love.

I respect your opinion, however, I don't think that Snape's friendship with Lily in any way diminishes her future relationship with her husband or lessens the notion that they were able to find, what for them, was an ideal relationship.

Canon (JKR) characterized Lily as a very popular girl like Ginny. She could have had her pick of a number of young men and the possibility of her eventually falling in love with any of them existed. For example, perhaps she dated Frank Longbottom before he was with Alice; Lily may have even had romantic inclinations toward him - but for whatever reason, the relationship didn't work out. If it had, things might have gone differently. She may have experienced this with a number of young men. But her ultimate decision was to remain in the romantic relationship she had with James.
I was replying to Graduand_Esk comment on why Snape and Lily's "what if" romantic relationship was still under debate. Yes Lily was a popular girl, but as JKR said, Lily did love Snape as a friend and and could have grown to love him romantically had he made different choices. What I meant by "diminishing" the ideal between James and Lily is that there was a possibility that those two wouldn't have made it if Snape had made different choices. Lily was quite a catch indeed, but Snape was the one she loved at one point. He's the solid proof that we see who could have altered Lily and James' relationship had he made different choices. This is why I added that this is was just like real life. Relationships work out or fail because of the choices made along the way.

So I don't think it took knowledge of Snape and Lily's friendship to allow people to understand that Lily's life could have turned out differently if she had made different choices along the way (or the young men she knew had) while she was making friends with and/or dating other young men.
Well if it didn't for you, it definitely did for me. :)

I was replying to Graduand_Esk comment on why Snape and Lily's "what if" romantic relationship was still under debate. Yes Lily was a popular girl, but as JKR said, Lily did love Snape as a friend and and could have grown to love him romantically had he made different choices. What I meant by "diminishing" the ideal between James and Lily is that there was a possibility that those two wouldn't have made it if Snape had made different choices. Lily was quite a catch indeed, but Snape was the one she loved at one point. He's the solid proof that we see who could have altered Lily and James' relationship had he made different choices. This is why I added that this is was just like real life. Relationships work out or fail because of the choices made along the way.

Well if it didn't for you, it definitely did for me. :)

I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that it diminished the ideal relationship in general, but you meant for you. :) I can understand that. I myself knew from POA when in the movie Lupin told Harry that Lily saw the 'best in everyone'. A person of that character (described as pretty) would likely be popular, so I had always known that she was likely to have had a number of dates and that the potential of her and James ending up together depended on choices she and those she dated made.

I did get the impression from the reading that James and Lily were destined to be and have Harry Potter - but I did not believe that to mean that Lily had no choice in the matter :) She always came across as a strong character to me from book 1 when we found out that she'd died protecting Harry. So Snape's friendship with her didn't diminish my ideal of Lily and James because I had always figured there were tons of young men Lily might have ended up with.

I am not sure what you meant by Lily "loved" Snape at one point, but she only ever loved him as a friend. However, I agree that he was an example of one of the many young men Lily could have become romantically involved with instead of James, but that was not something new for me - I believe that is why I didn't realize you were speaking about your personal belief in the ideal relationship between Lily and James being diminshed - I thought you meant in general. Sorry about that, my mistake :)

I was replying to Graduand_Esk comment on why Snape and Lily's "what if" romantic relationship was still under debate. Yes Lily was a popular girl, but as JKR said, Lily did love Snape as a friend and and could have grown to love him romantically had he made different choices. What I meant by "diminishing" the ideal between James and Lily is that there was a possibility that those two wouldn't have made it if Snape had made different choices. Lily was quite a catch indeed, but Snape was the one she loved at one point. He's the solid proof that we see who could have altered Lily and James' relationship had he made different choices. This is why I added that this is was just like real life. Relationships work out or fail because of the choices made along the way.

Well if it didn't for you, it definitely did for me.

I did get the impression from the reading that James and Lily were destined to be and have Harry Potter - but I did not believe that to mean that Lily had no choice in the matter :) She always came across as a strong character to me from book 1 when we found out that she'd died protecting Harry. So Snape's friendship with her didn't diminish my ideal of Lily and James because I had always figured there were tons of young men Lily might have ended up with.
If you think there were other men who could have won Lily's heart, that's fine. But the impression I got when JKR said Lily could have grown to love Snape romantically since she did love him as a friend, was Snape could have had a huge chance with her at one point, IF he had made different choices. And since they were best friends, Lily loved him as a best friend. That gives me the impression that he was more important to her than maybe other boys or other friends in general AT ONE POINT. Because as far as I know, that label isn't thrown around to just any friend. It's already canon that Lily's love could have evolved if Snape did things differently. This leads me to speculate that being already very close to Lily, maybe he could have had a better chance than the rest of the boys, had he made different choices. Hence why I think he would have been the one, at least most likely, to have altered Lily and James relationship, again, had he made different choices. Does that make sense?

I am not sure what you meant by Lily "loved" Snape at one point, but she only ever loved him as a friend.
Umm...I meant them as the same thing. I indicate that in my post, so I knew what I was talking about. Either way, it was still love. This doesn't need to be that complicated. :cool:

If you think there were other men who could have won Lily's heart, that's fine. But the impression I got when JKR said Lily could have grown to love Snape romantically since she did love him as a friend, was Snape could have had a huge chance with her at one point, IF he had made different choices. And since they were best friends, Lily loved him as a best friend. That gives me the impression that he was more important to her than maybe other boys or other friends in general AT ONE POINT. Because as far as I know, that label isn't thrown around to just any friend. It's already canon that Lily's love could have evolved if Snape did things differently. This leads me to speculate that being already very close to Lily, maybe he could have had a better chance than the rest of the boys, had he made different choices. Hence why I think he would have been the one, at least most likely, to have altered Lily and James relationship, again, had he made different choices. Does that make sense?

Yes it makes sense :)

I think that is a reasonable speculation. I had not realized that was what Question #8 was asking (I thought it meant in terms of canon). I will answer in terms of pure speculation.

-------------------------

*Not in response to above:

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

If I had to speculate, I would say that if Snape had dropped his dark arts interests and friends early on (like 2nd year) then the friendship would have gone forward and Lily may have formed romantic feelings for him. However, I think by the time she formed those feelings (age wise), she would have also formed romantic feelings for James as was the case. Looking objectively at what the two had to offer (assuming Snape had given up his dark arts and dark arts friends) I would still think Lily would pick James. He was simply the better deal all around in my opinion. I think she would likely pick James over other young men competing for her heart as well, because even when James and Lily were not friends, Lily fancied James. This, I feel would end Snape and Lily's relationship because Snape would not likely wish to remain friends with her under those circumstances. Any chance for a life long friendship would also be impossible. Thus, I don't feel that history would have been altered in any way, independent of Snape's decisions.

Yes it makes sense :)

I think that is a reasonable speculation. I had not realized that was what Question #8 was asking (I thought it meant in terms of canon). I will answer in terms of pure speculation.
I never meant to answer any of the questions. Originally I had only started talking on this thread by replying to somebody else's post, but I felt my "speculation" was based on canon. My point was, based on that quote JKR had said about Lily loving Snape romantically had he made different choices, it would mean that Lily would have chosen Snape in a romantic relationship. I can't see why that wouldn't be the case. Everything else I said in between was only explaining how I got to that answer.

Edit:
Let me rephrease that. I meant everything else I said in between was only explaining how I got that answer and how Snape would have been the one to effect Lily and James relationship, since that was what I originally was talking about in the first place.

A lifetime friendship...an invite to the wedding....I think not.

I never meant to answer any of the questions. Originally I had only started talking on this thread by replying to somebody else's post, but I felt my "speculation" was based on canon. My point was, based on that quote JKR had said about Lily loving Snape romantically had he made different choices, it would mean that Lily would have chosen Snape in a romantic relationship. I can't see why that wouldn't be the case. Everything else I said in between was only explaining how I got to that answer.

Edit:
Let me rephrease that. I meant everything else I said in between was only explaining how I got that answer and how Snape would have been the one to effect Lily and James relationship, since that was what I originally was talking about in the first place.

Ah, I understand :)

I would respectfully disagree that it is canon that Snape would be the one to effect Lily and James' relationship. We don't know if Lily had other 'best friends', or 'romantic interests' or anything at all. So anything is possible, including your speculation, but I don't feel that the mere fact that Snape and Lily were friends - even best friends means that she would have chosen him over anyone else if he had made other choices; that is only something we can guess. But I do respect your opinion if that was your impression from the canon. :)

Ah, I understand :)

I would respectfully disagree that it is canon that Snape would be the one to effect Lily and James' relationship. We don't know if Lily had other 'best friends', or 'romantic interests' or anything at all. So anything is possible, including your speculation, but I don't feel that the mere fact that Snape and Lily were friends - even best friends means that she would have chosen him over anyone else if he had made other choices; that is only something we can guess. But I do respect your opinion if that was your impression from the canon. :)

Hmm...okay, let's see if I can have fun with this. :rockon:

We can speculate that MAYBE Lily had other "best friends" or "romantic interests". I only automatically assumed there weren't any since those are not stated in the canon AT ALL. But even if there were other best friends and/or romantic interests, it would mean that JKR had made that as Lily's backstory when constructing her character. And this backstory couldn't make it into the books because it obviously wouldn't have done anything for the plot. Like Dean Thomas' backstory. Even with Dean's non mentioned backstory(which JKR explains on her site), it at least explains how his wizard father got killed, having Dean being raised by his muggle mother, which of course led to him being on the run in book 7 since they were after the "muggleborns". There was still the cause and effect with Dean's backstory. It had a reason for being there. So IF Lily had other best friends and/or romantic interests, what purpose would that have? Am I going off topic?

Hmm...okay, let's see if I can have fun with this. :rockon:

We can speculate that MAYBE Lily had other "best friends" or "romantic interests". I only automatically assumed there weren't any since those are not stated in the canon AT ALL. But even if there were other best friends and/or romantic interests, it would mean that JKR had made that as Lily's backstory when constructing her character. And this backstory couldn't make it into the books because it obviously wouldn't have done anything for the plot. Like Dean Thomas' backstory. Even with Dean's non mentioned backstory(which JKR explains on her site), it at least explains how his wizard father got killed, having Dean being raised by his muggle mother, which of course led to him being on the run in book 7 since they were after the "muggleborns". There was still the cause and effect with Dean's backstory. It had a reason for being there. So IF Lily had other best friends and/or romantic interests, what purpose would that have? Am I going off topic?

Well JKR said in an interview that characteristically, Lily was a popular girl - and was like Ginny, with many guys finding her attractive and dating some of them. None of that made it into the series because as you say, it wouldn't have done anything for the plot.

Similarly, the fact that Lily could have formed romantic feelings for Snape if he had made different choices and dropped his dark arts interests and acts - was said by JKR in an interview and didn't make it into the books either because it wouldn't have done anything for the plot.

So, while I respect your opinion, I don't really see the distinction you are trying to make in contrasting these bits of information. They are both canon given outside of the books, neither serves any canon purpose and can only add to our speculation and character analysis.

I think Lily's character was shown to be too dynamic for her to be the type of girl who was shy and didn't date when asked out. What we see of her seems to match with what JKR said, that she was like Ginny (a mind of her own with opinions and principles she believed in and outspoken about them, plus a people person with friends and happy to date those she liked - and popular, so a lot of young men were attracted to her and would ask her out). Which explains why Harry was attracted to Ginny and James was attracted to Lily as the two young men had a bit in common as did the two young girls - characteristically.

If you think there were other men who could have won Lily's heart, that's fine. But the impression I got when JKR said Lily could have grown to love Snape romantically since she did love him as a friend, was Snape could have had a huge chance with her at one point, IF he had made different choices. And since they were best friends, Lily loved him as a best friend. That gives me the impression that he was more important to her than maybe other boys or other friends in general AT ONE POINT. Because as far as I know, that label isn't thrown around to just any friend. It's already canon that Lily's love could have evolved if Snape did things differently. This leads me to speculate that being already very close to Lily, maybe he could have had a better chance than the rest of the boys, had he made different choices. Hence why I think he would have been the one, at least most likely, to have altered Lily and James relationship, again, had he made different choices. Does that make sense?

I just learn that it is canon that Lily might develop romantic feelings for Snape. Well it is comforting for me to hear that from JKR. At least Snape wasn't as tragic as I thought.

it would mean that Lily would have chosen Snape in a romantic relationship. I can't see why that wouldn't be the case. Everything else I said in between was only explaining how I got to that answer
It doesn't mean that she would have chosen Snape. It only means that she might have chosen Snape. There's a huge difference there. What it does mean is that Snape closed any possibility that something could have developed because of his choices.

It's also canon per JKR that Lily was already attracted to James when SWM took place. So James would have needed to have been removed from the picture for Snape to have a chance.

Actually I think that Lily liked both James and Snape, though things might be a little edgy with him it still doesn't mean that Snape didn't have an equal chance. And if no fight had ever occurred in between Snape/Lily the decision could have gone either way. But Snape's low self-confidence and that fight prevented these circumstances. Lily wanted to choose at one point, and Snape just made it easier for her...

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think it was because he was shy and self-conscious about his appearance, and also because Lily probably was at the playground with Petunia most of the time. It's a lot harder to approach someone who is with other people than to approach someone who is alone. Probably he would not have been equally fascinated by her if she hadn't been magical, but being a witch, she had something in common with him and therefore he felt attracted to her.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

Young Lily comes across as a rather unprejudiced person, so why should she not accept it? She probably would have been friendly with him if he hadn't told her about the magical world, but since it was something they both shared with no other kids at that time it naturally created a bond between them.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

At first, I think Snape was flattered that Lily showed interest in what he had to tell, something that probably hadn't happened to him before. He recognized from early on that she had a lot of power and would become a powerful witch, even though at first his knowledge of magic might have been greater. But especially later on, considering the fact that Snape was in love with her, she would wield the emotional power in the relationship because Snape would be much more dependent on how she felt about him.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

Being sorted into different houses (and especially Slytherin and Gryffindor, who held an age-old grudge against each other) certainly made things difficult for them, but the fact that they both maintained the friendship for so long implies that both wanted to hold on to it. Besides, both seem to be rather loyal people.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

I had the impression that Gryffindor made Lily more reckless and less sensitive. The Slytherin ideology of pureblood superiority would be appealing to Snape due to his own inferiority complex (that probably applied to most things about him but his brain) and therefore brought out the bad sides in him instead of enforcing the good that was in him. The friends they made in their respective houses probably teased both of them a lot, Slytherins would berate Lily for being muggle-born, and Gryffindors would berate Snape for being a Slytherin and obviously for his appearance as well. Their houses put them into the position of being enemies, and it is quite telling that their friendship endured the strain for so many years.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

Snape had probably been interested in the Dark Arts from early on, but that did not necessarily mean he would become a Death Eater. For all we know, he might have gone to Hogwarts without ever having heard of Death Eaters. His mother most probably was not a Death Eater, but she might still have been interested in the Dark Arts. The Dark Arts are an easy way to power, therefore I think considering Severus' and Eileen's home life it seems very probably that they were both attracted to them. Lily felt threatened by the pureblood ideology, and the mudblood insult was probably the last straw. But a lot of thing came together that lead to the breakup between them, the mudblood insult was just the immediate cause.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

Of course, Snape could have acted upon his love for Lily and opposed the pureblood ideology, and he could have stood up to his fellow Slytherins. I think he might have done that if Lily had actually been his girlfriend, and not having merely the slight hope that maybe, in some distant future, she might return his feelings. Lily, on the other hand, might have shown him unconditional friendship (which it obviously wasn't) and play on bringing out the good in him. Considering their characters, the actual outcome is more credible though.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

Yes, they might have had a romantic future, but then, the story probably wouldn't have been half as interesting :-).

It doesn't mean that she would have chosen Snape. It only means that she might have chosen Snape. There's a huge difference there. What it does mean is that Snape closed any possibility that something could have developed because of his choices.

I think so, too. Might is a mighty big word in affairs of the heart, you know? I also have to question just how attractive she would have found him in close quarters. I mean, the greasy hair and yellow teeth? I think they would have been a serious turn-off to almost any girl.

I really don't think that their romantic relationship would have worked out if Lily and Snape had been together romantically. They just seemed wayyyy to oppisite personality wise. If anything maybe they could have a life long friendship.....

think so, too. Might is a mighty big word in affairs of the heart, you know? I also have to question just how attractive she would have found him in close quarters. I mean, the greasy hair and yellow teeth? I think they would have been a serious turn-off to almost any girl.

It's human nature to be turned off by appearnce deffinatly. I mean she was looking past it when they were friends but that's hard to do when your kissing and you keep thinking yellow teeth.....

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy
Ah, I understand

I would respectfully disagree that it is canon that Snape would be the one to effect Lily and James' relationship. We don't know if Lily had other 'best friends', or 'romantic interests' or anything at all. So anything is possible, including your speculation, but I don't feel that the mere fact that Snape and Lily were friends - even best friends means that she would have chosen him over anyone else if he had made other choices; that is only something we can guess. But I do respect your opinion if that was your impression from the canon.
I don't think there's anything in the canon about that. JKR said Lily was a "catch" and that she was as popular as Ginny, so we can assume that other boys might have found her appealing. But obviously we have the canon of the rivalry between James and Severus that affected her the most.


Actually I think that Lily liked both James and Snape, though things might be a little edgy with him it still doesn't mean that Snape didn't have an equal chance. And if no fight had ever occurred in between Snape/Lily the decision could have gone either way. But Snape's low self-confidence and that fight prevented these circumstances. Lily wanted to choose at one point, and Snape just made it easier for her...
I think you're right. :agree:



5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

I had the impression that Gryffindor made Lily more reckless and less sensitive. The Slytherin ideology of pureblood superiority would be appealing to Snape due to his own inferiority complex (that probably applied to most things about him but his brain) and therefore brought out the bad sides in him instead of enforcing the good that was in him. The friends they made in their respective houses probably teased both of them a lot, Slytherins would berate Lily for being muggle-born, and Gryffindors would berate Snape for being a Slytherin and obviously for his appearance as well. Their houses put them into the position of being enemies, and it is quite telling that their friendship endured the strain for so many years.
I agree that the House system did not do them any favors at all. Snape didn't seem to think of the Pureblood thing when he chose Slytherin - he wanted to be an intellectual. Ravenclaw might have been a better choice, and that might have been an option, but he had his mind made up probably because of things his mother told him. Gryffindor seems to have helped Lily's self-confidence, which seemed low before going to Hogwarts, due to Petunia and being a Muggleborn. And the fact that she was pretty and popular also probably helped.

They just had the stars crossed at the moment they were separated during sorting. :(

It doesn't mean that she would have chosen Snape. It only means that she might have chosen Snape. There's a huge difference there. What it does mean is that Snape closed any possibility that something could have developed because of his choices.

It's also canon per JKR that Lily was already attracted to James when SWM took place. So James would have needed to have been removed from the picture for Snape to have a chance.

Yes, MIGHT is a big a word. Obviously the whole JKR statement is a huge "what if". I tried to base my answer off of canon, which includes JKR's quote.

Yes, even I do believe that Lily did have feelings for James by the time SWM took place. But by that time, Lily and Snape's friendship was already deteriorating. Based on what Lily said about "making excuses for you for years" Snape's attraction to the Dark Arts and Death Eaters was building over the years, correct? But according to JKR's quote, Lily's love could have evolved "if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts." We know why the friendship deteriorated. If Snape's love for the Dark Arts and dark acts were taken out of the picture, then the friendship would not had deteriorated the way it did by 5th year, now would it? So IF Snape had been a better person and not associate himself with these things, then he and Lily would have still been close, if not getting closer over the coming years. Which is why I think it could have had some, if not a huge, affect with Lily's feelings for James. Which goes back to my last posting on how different people making different choices could have turned things out differently.

I get the feeling somebody else is going to say "Welll we don't know if there were other factors that could have detiorated the friendship", "We don't know if Lily could have still liked James", "We don't know if Snape and Lily would have worked out" or "It wasn't Snape's character, so would be impossible anyway." :lol:

Yes, I understand everything else I've said is a big what if. But mind you, I never make any kind of speculation unless it is based off of canon. The answer I came up with is solely based off the close friendship that we know was between Snape and Lily, and JKR's quote. And a little of my own sense of cause and effect based off of that friendship and quote.

4. How did Hogwarts affect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

I think Hogwarts put a strain on their friendship from the moment they got sorted. They wouldn't see each other that often, considering they'd spend most of their time with their own house: at meals, in the common room, in class, etc. Then they also had friends in their own houses (Lily spent time with that group of girls, and Snape spent time with Avery and Mulciber, and probably other Slytherins) that they'd see as well. These friends of theirs would probably frown upon the friendship, too - we know Lily's friends disliked Snape, and I'm pretty sure Avery and Mulciber disliked Lily, as well, if only because she was Muggleborn.

So not only were they limited in their interactions, but they were being slowly driven apart by the house rivalry. So they must have worked at keeping the friendship going, both of them. I just feel Lily tried harder for the friendship, as she made excuses for him for years concerning his behaviour.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

Their friendship went downhill the moment they got to Hogwarts - it was a gradual descent, but I believe it began with the Sorting. Things piled up against them. Many things had a part in the destruction of their friendship, but I think it was mainly due to his interest in the Dark Arts and his Death Eater ambitions. It clearly bothered Lily and worried her (who can blame her), but he was adamant about his interests. The last straw was calling her a Mudblood - though she hardly looked that shocked or upset when he did it, so I think she had already lost practically all hope for their friendship by that point - again, who can blame her?

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

I think Lily made the right choices. She gave him many chances throughout the years, which her friends clearly wouldn't have done in her position. She cut the friendship when it got too unhealthy. Snape on the otherhand, made bad decisions. He was blinded by his love of the Dark Arts and couldn't see from Lily's perspective at all. I feel he pretty much single handedly ruined the friendship, although unintentionally. I don't blame Lily at all - I admire her for holding onto hope for so long, actually.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

Well, Jo said "She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts." What I took from that was that, for the possibility of romance, Snape would have to have disliked the Dark Arts and been against Voldemort.

Personally, that's a huge what if. That's like saying "what if Lily had become a Death Eater?" Well, that wasn't her personality at all. She never would have gone down that path. So a Snape not loving the Dark Arts is just as unlikely - we'd have to imagine a completely different person. So I personally don't believe, with the characters we were shown in canon, that any possibility of a romance was really there. She loved him as a friend, but nothing more, and that's canon. She already liked James in fifth year - Jo pretty much said that herself in the Leaky/Mugglenet interview, not to mention how Lily blushed when Snape would ask her about James, and her reactions in SWM - so even if Snape had pulled a 180 from his DE ambitions by that point, I feel her heart was already with James. I mean, out of all the boys at Hogwarts, she ended up with the one she made everyone believe she despised. She could have easily fallen for someone else, but she didn't, because she really was attracted to James. If Snape had been completely different personality-wise - i.e., not a Death Eater in training - then he could have been one of those possibilities. I personally believe, however, that Lily would have fallen in love with James no matter what.

I think so, too. Might is a mighty big word in affairs of the heart, you know? I also have to question just how attractive she would have found him in close quarters. I mean, the greasy hair and yellow teeth? I think they would have been a serious turn-off to almost any girl.

I would have to agree. Snape as also an unpopular lad and under this scenario, you would be taking away the friends he had (from Slytherin). The resulting dislike from his friends and solitude would not likely have a positive affect on his character.

However, if Snape were an 'all new' person, with none of the dark interests and better hygiene and a more cheerful personality and thus more popular, he would have likely been placed in a different house - perhaps even Gryffindor. But in a way, are we not just turning him into James - someone we know Lily would be attracted to?

However, if Snape were an 'all new' person, with none of the dark interests and better hygiene and a more cheerful personality and thus more popular, he would have likely been placed in a different house - perhaps even Gryffindor. But in a way, are we not just turning him into James - someone we know Lily would be attracted to?

Turning him into James would also be turning him into a "bullying toerag". And remember, Lily didn't go out with James until 7th year which was when he started to change for the better. Snape would have had to go through the same transition. :cool: But even so, it still doesn't mean we'd be turning him into James. Snape could still his own person. And knowing how Lily always saw the good people, popularty and physical features may not have mattered to her as much.

But anyway, let's get back to the Snape and Lily topic, shall we?.....

After I read Mugglenet's book, I believed in Snape/Lily 100%. What makes me kind of sad is that EVERYONE from their year is dead. James, Remus, Sirius, Lily, Pettigrew and Snape. (Well, I'm not sad about those last two!)

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think Snape was shy, which is quite understandable. If Lily had not been magical, I don't believe he would have approached her at all. They were very young - too young for him to get a crush on her based on her appearance alone. It was her magic that attracted his attention at first.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

I think she was thrilled to find an explanation for her magical abilities, and glad to have someone who could tell her about the magical world. I'm sure she would have been kind to Snape no matter what, because even as a child, Lily seemed to be kind and caring. But without Snape's inside knowledge of the magical world, it would have been a very unequal friendship.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

Affect! Not effect! *groans loudly*

I think being sorted into different houses meant that Snape and Lily had to work on their friendship. For example, they wouldn't be sitting together at mealtimes or in the common room, so they probably had to arrange to meet, or make sure they were in a place where children from different houses all congregated. I'm 100% convinced that their house placement was a result of their personalities, and didn't change anything much. Snape would have been a Slytherin personality even if he'd been Sorted into Hufflepuff. Their houses illustrate the differences between them, rather than creating those differences.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

See above.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

I think Jo made it clear that Snape's interest and participation in the Dark Arts was what forced Lily to end the friendship. If it wasn't for his fascination with the Dark Arts, Lily might even have loved him romantically in time. The mudblood insult was important, not as an isolated incident, but as an illustration of Snape's true feelings. Lily knew that. She wasn't shallow enough to break of a 7 year friendship just because of a mistake. She knew he meant it - if not about her, then about other Muggle-borns.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

I don't think Lily could have acted differently and still maintained her self-respect. She was not cut out to be a Death Eater's wife, like Narcissa. Snape was the one who could have changed things. He didn't have to associate with future Death Eaters, and he knew (or ought to have known, because it's clear this was a repeated topic of conversation for them) that Lily hated him doing so.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

Since the only way to save their friendship would have been for Snape to renounce the Dark Arts, it would have made a huge difference. Among other things, Voldemort would have never heard the prophecy if Snape had not been a Death Eater, but more importantly, Jo says that Snape's fascination with the Dark Arts was the reason Lily couldn't love him, and that their friendship could have developed into mutual love if Snape had turned away from his evil ways.

After I read Mugglenet's book, I believed in Snape/Lily 100%. What makes me kind of sad is that EVERYONE from their year is dead. James, Remus, Sirius, Lily, Pettigrew and Snape. (Well, I'm not sad about those last two!)Off topic - but IF it makes you feel better (and I'm sure it wouldn't) I think Avery is still alive at the end - I don't remember anything about his death???? Of course, I'm not positive he was in the same year - since he didn't step forward during SWM.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I agree pretty much with what’s been said on this: Sev likely had not had good luck making friends up until then. He was probably treated as an oddball and outcast by other children. Perhaps feared. And no, he probably would not have approached Lily if she had not been magical. I think he made the effort in her case because he had at last found someone magical like himself.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

It’s hard to say what Lily might have done under different circumstances. Since Sev might not have approached her at all if she were not magical, it’s probably a moot question. But as it is written, she definitely was interested in knowing what this little boy knew about her abilities, and about the rest of the magical world that he knew about.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

In the beginning, Sev was like Lily’s mentor. He introduced her to a whole new world. But also, I think he was a bit more adventurous (sneaking around the neighborhoods, poking into Petunia’s correspondence). I think Lily also had that adventurous side to her (“flying” out of the swings though she was told not to) and I think she enjoyed that trait in Sev that they had in common (eventho she might then turn around and blame Sev when he got her into trouble!).

On the other hand, Lily was for Sev his first real friend. I think she also introduced him to a world he did not know before: a more pleasant, stable family situation. In some ways, Lily acted like Sev’s conscience, letting him know when his behavior was unacceptable. For many years she was a true friend who supported and defended him against cruel teasing.

There is a gap in the memories at Hogwarts. I think it likely they were equals during that period. Among other magicals, Sev was no longer her mentor in that area, but on the other hand, Lily did seem sad to be sorted away from Sev. Much has been made of Lily being popular, but that likely did not occur until years later. Bright, eleven year old Lily had a cheeky, opinionated mouth on her, and was likely seen as an abrasive know-it-all by the other Gryffindors. It’s very possible that, like Hermione, Lily had trouble making friends herself in those early years at Hogwarts. I believe she genuinely valued her friendship with the Slytherin oddball, Snape. They were both bright, adventurous, magically gifted, and the HBP suggests that they both had a gift for potions.

There comes a time in their 5th year, however, as indicated in the memories, when Sev seems more desireous of maintaining the friendship than does Lily. At such a point, the friendship was no longer equal, as the one who cares less has more power.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

Being sorted into different houses definitely was an obstacle to their friendship, first in accessibility, and secondarily in the existing rivalry and prejudices between Gryffindor and Slytherin houses. As I indicated above, I suspect that Lily may have had difficulty making friends herself in the beginning, and so would have valued her friendship with Sev as much as he did. It is evident that both did work to maintain the relationship, still considering themselves best friends at least through the first four years. Sev likely endured harassment from his Slytherin peers for associating with a Muggleborn and Gryffindor as much as Lily had to defend Sev against the criticism of her Gryffindor associates.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

I think over time both were influenced by and succumbed to the prejudices and peer pressures of their housemates. I think being in Gryffindor accentuated Lily’s cold self-righteousness and know-it-all arrogance. The influences of Slytherin house supported Sev’s indifference to Muggles and accentuated an indifference, even a twisted amusment, to the suffering of others.

Again, hypothetical questions are hard to answer. The influences certainly would have been different had they been sorted into different houses. The prejudices of their peers may not have been as pronounced. Still, Lily and Sev’s personal traits did not spring into existence at Hogwarts. And the hexing habits of James, Sirius, Peter, and Lupin instruct us that indifference to the suffering of others can flourish in Gryffindor as well as in Slytherin. Nevertheless, the friendship of Lily and Sev would likely have had the best chance had they been sorted into the same house (maybe Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff).

6. What was the death knell for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

It strikes me that the pivotal memory in their relationship was the argument over Snape’s friends and the Werewolf Incident. In that memory, each of these “best friends” was trying to warn the other about the bad influence of his and her housemates. Lily tried to warn Severus about how “evil” it was to try to cast some sort of spell upon another for one’s personal amusement, or to find such actions entertaining. Severus on his part tried to warn Lily that there was a dishonest, even dark, unsavory side to James Potter, and a hypocracy in criticizing himself while defending the behavior of her own housemates.

Both were right. Severus was beginning to go more seriously down the road into Dark Magic. (Like hwyla, I have my doubts that Sev was deeply into the Dark Arts previously, since Lily’s temper and nattering voice of conscience would likely have kept any interest in check up until this point) As for Lily, in spite of her protest that she knows James is a toerag, she must have been at least in some ways open to his attentions for her to defend him, or to believe James’s account of the Werewolf Incident over Sev’s. But Sev was right. Lily was naïve if she believed that because James did not technically use dark spells, that his hexing others who irritated him, or “because he can” was somehow “better”. And James was indeed keeping dark secrets.

Yes, budding romantic feelings do play a role in the intensifying of emotions and the deflection and dismissal of uncomfortable truths. I do not believe that Sev’s romantic interest in Lily was unrequited at this point. I don’t believe that Lily would have blushed at his intense gaze if she found his interest unwelcome. I have no doubt that her beginning to be noticed by other boys also was a factor that was feeding her pride and turning her head.

Sadly, for both Lily and Snape, neither was listening to or trusting the advice of the other. Both of them chose to defend their housemates rather than carefully consider the uncomfortable truths their best friend saw, and which each of them did not want to see.

By the time we get to Snape’s Worst Memory, everyone’s worst traits seem to be in full play. Snape turns to a dark spell to defend himself against the brutal two against one bullying, Lily comes to Sev’s defense, but seems to give far more attention to James than to her struggling friend, even having trouble holding back her own amusement at his plight. In anger and humiliation (it’s likely that he has been sensing for some time that he is losing her) Sev lashes out with a hurtful epithet. Lily reacts angrily herself, returning her own vicious insults, and walking intractably away from her still tormented friend.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

There are always different choices. Sev could have taken Lily’s warnings seriously about the Dark Arts, withdrawn from those housemates involved with them, and their activities.

While most fans focus only on Sev’s flaws, Lily’s choices also negatively impacted the relationship. For one thing, she could have recognized her own hypocracy in defending James while criticising Sev. She could have considered that Snape may know something about James and his friends that she doesn't.

The biggest irony of all is when Lily tells James he is “no better” than Severus. She seems to finally recognize what Sev has been trying to tell her. And yet Lily also finds amusement in Sev’s predicament. She who knows the poverty and neglect he has come from, ridicules his underwear and utilizes the mocking nickname of his enemies. And then she turns her back on a former best friend, indifferent to his suffering, and leaves him alone to the mercy of his tormentors. In that moment, she was truly no better than Severus or James.

In the memory that follows, we see that Lily will not forgive Sev for the Mudblood epithet directed at her. Nor would she even listen to what he might have to say. She assumes that he wants to be, and has decided to become, a Death Eater. I find that this kind of unilateral and arrogant assumption about someone else’s motivation, intentions, and desires always destroys communication and relationships.

This moment is a lost opportunity, a last chance for both. There is every indication that Sev finally sees that his behavior and attitudes will cost him his beloved friend. There was a real chance he would have reversed course at this point, if Lily had found compassion and had given him a second chance, while making it clear that it was a last chance. Then the choice would have been Sev’s. As it was, it was Lily’s arrogant, self-righteous choice to see only Sev’s mistakes and not recognize any of her own.

Many of the themes of the Deathly Hallows converge in Sev and Lily’s lost friendship: seeing what you expect to see, not wanting to see the growing darkness in a friend or in oneself, and ultimately, putting one’s trust in the wrong person or persons.

It is true that Lily’s choices are realistic, but they were not noble nor inevitable. Hermione is a striking mirror. She also acts as a nattering conscience for both Harry and Ron throughout the series, and is an especially dedicated voice of warning in HBP as Harry indulges in more and more “dodgy” spells (apparently the same spells Sev and his friends were using in their day!). Her romantic interest in Ron leads her to react more intensely at times to his foolish choices, but when the chips are down and he is injured, or when he desires to return, she does forgive and remains a true friend.

Hermione’s reaction to Kreacher is also a telling contrast to Lily. In spite of the house elf’s repeated insults, which includes the infamous term “Mudblood”, Hermione forgave him and retained her compassion towards him, understanding something of the miserable life of the house elf.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

If Lily and Sev had managed to save their friendship, I think their lives would have been quite different. If Sev had trusted in Lily’s warning about his housemates, Sev would not have become a Death Eater. He would not have disclosed the prophecy to Lord Voldemort, which was what made Lily and James and their son a particular target. Sev’s many talents would have been able to be utilized in a positive way.

If Lily had trusted in Sev’s warning about James, she would not have naively succumbed to his dishonest charms, or have foolishly entrusted her own and her child’s safety to him and to the treacherous Wormtail.

I believe Lily and Sev could have had a romantic future, although there are certainly other possible outcomes as well. While I think any other suitor for Lily might have been difficult for Sev to handle, it is possible he could have eventually accepted a brotherly role in her life. This is assuming that Lily had found someone Sev could respect and not his worst enemy. His sputtering declaration that he did not want to see her made a fool indicates that he did care deeply about her welfare, and not just about his own personal romantic interest.

Of course, a more rosy personal future for Sev and Lily might include a more difficult path for the world at large, if taking down the Dark Lord became far more difficult. There are too many variables involved to divine whether their lives would ultimately have been short and tragic or long and happy, or even anything in between.

There is a gap in the memories at Hogwarts. I think it likely they were equals during that period. Among other magicals, Sev was no longer her mentor in that area, but on the other hand, Lily did seem sad to be sorted away from Sev. Much has been made of Lily being popular, but that likely did not occur until years later. Bright, eleven year old Lily had a cheeky, opinionated mouth on her, and was likely seen as an abrasive know-it-all by the other Gryffindors. It’s very possible that, like Hermione, Lily had trouble making friends herself in those early years at Hogwarts. I believe she genuinely valued her friendship with the Slytherin oddball, Snape. They were both bright, adventurous, magically gifted, and the HBP suggests that they both had a gift for potions.
TBA: That's such a good point about the way Lily and Snape were separated by the sorting. It just occurred to me that in one day, Lily was emotional about leaving Petunia and the Muggle world behind, and then she was sorted into an unknown house and separated from the only other magical person she had ever known. Poor Lily! :(

Lily was emotional about leaving Petunia and the Muggle world behind, and then she was sorted into an unknown house and separated from the only other magical person she had ever known. Poor Lily!
And then she met a pile of new friends in her house and other houses, just like all the other new Hogwarts students. I'm sure the excitement of being with so many other magical people and learning about magic would compensate rather quickly for her possible anxiety about being separated from the only magical person she had ever known.

And then she met a pile of new friends in her house and other houses, just like all the other new Hogwarts students. I'm sure the excitement of being with so many other magical people and learning about magic would compensate rather quickly for her possible anxiety about being separated from the only magical person she had ever known.

I agree. I think Lily had a very strong character, even when young (as seen on the playground with her sister and in the later memories). She was also quite popular, so I feel she likely found friends quite quickly and was happily esconced in Gryffindor shortly after being sorted.

And then she met a pile of new friends in her house and other houses, just like all the other new Hogwarts students. I'm sure the excitement of being with so many other magical people and learning about magic would compensate rather quickly for her possible anxiety about being separated from the only magical person she had ever known.

I was talking about her first day at Hogwarts. :)

Obviously she got over missing Petunia, and she still got to see Severus everyday, so I know she was all right.

And then she met a pile of new friends in her house and other houses, just like all the other new Hogwarts students. I'm sure the excitement of being with so many other magical people and learning about magic would compensate rather quickly for her possible anxiety about being separated from the only magical person she had ever known.
I can actually see this happening. I do wonder how she and Snape got along at least for the first 2 years at Hogwarts. It seems they were pretty close if JKR said she loved him as a friend.

One of my big problems is that I think there's still a lot we DON'T know about Lily and her relationship with Snape. The memories Snape gave her are only bits and pieces. In no way does it summarize 5 or 6 years of being best friends. Like what kinds things did they do or play when they hung around the neighborhood? How were things between them the first couple of years? When did they start breaking apart, and was it really on the brink of collapse by "Snape's Worst Memory"? And whether they were close, falling apart, or after the breakup, they still had their summers near each other, so what happened between them in those summers? I seriously hope JKR has this backstory.

Obviously my anxiety is bursting. :drool:

Obviously she got over missing Petunia, and she still got to see Severus everyday, so I know she was all right.
I can see the anxiety you mentioned. It's really typical of what muggle children feel when they go to boarding schools. It must be disorienting at first, but the kids do quickly form new "families" with their housemates. And those friendships and ties last a lifetime.

I've been listening to the all the Rumpole of the Bailey audiobooks (he's a British Barrister who's a wonderfully irreverant curmudgeon). In one I heard recently, he mentioned being "banged up" (i.e. sent to prision) when he was sent to public school (boarding school) as a child. We don't have the same kind of educational system here in America. Boarding schools are far less common. However, they are commonplace in the UK. So the separation anxiety, while just as real for a child in the UK as in the US, would seem less harsh in that context.

The above is in apology to all the posters (UK, US, and otherwise) to whom this observation about UK boarding schools is common knowledge.

I agree. I think Lily had a very strong character, even when young (as seen on the playground with her sister and in the later memories). She was also quite popular, so I feel she likely found friends quite quickly and was happily esconced in Gryffindor shortly after being sorted.

JKR's comment about Lily being popular "like Ginny" always sounded to me like a reference to their popularity among the boys once they reached an age to be noticed. And yes, by then I think she had also made friends among the girls as well. But was Lily "popular" her first day or years at school? I have my doubts. Ginny cannot be said to have been "popular" those early years. In CoS she was rather shy and retiring, embarrassing herself with her crush on Harry, and pouring out her sad stories of woe into Riddle's diary.

Also, strong personalities in children do not necessarily attract friends. They can be quite off-putting and abrasive as they spout off their opinions and tell everyone what they are doing wrong.

Hermione, like Lily, was also a bright know-it-all, who was strong and opinionated. Recall Hermione's first year? Ron said of her:

"It's no wonder no one can stand her, she's a nightmare, honestly."

When Hermione runs off crying because she overheard, Ron continues,
"So? She must've noticed she's got no friends."
PS/SS, US paperback, pg172

JKR's comment about Lily being popular "like Ginny" always sounded to me like a reference to their popularity among the boys once they reached an age to be noticed. And yes, by then I think she had also made friends among the girls as well. But was Lily "popular" her first day or years at school? I have my doubts. Ginny cannot be said to have been "popular" those early years. In CoS she was rather shy and retiring, embarrassing herself with her crush on Harry, and pouring out her sad stories of woe into Riddle's diary.

Also, strong personalities in children do not necessarily attract friends. They can be quite off-putting and abrasive as they spout off their opinions and tell everyone what they are doing wrong.



I respect your opinion and you are quite possibly correct because we can only guess. My impression is that she jumped right into being good friends with her mates. After all, she didn't show reservations in becoming Snape's friend on the playground despite her sisters abhorance of him. Well in Gryffindor, she wouldn't have that pressure; others too would want friends and it is natural at a boarding school for kids to get on quite well quite quickly unless they are extremely shy, timind and introverted. Like many others, my impression is based on my personal experiences at boarding school. Her's may have been distinct, but I personally figure she was happy and friendly and thus would have no trouble making friends within a very short period - generally a matter of hours, but definitely within a matter of a couple of days. :)

I think being in Gryffindor accentuated Lily’s cold self-righteousness and know-it-all arrogance.
I can't say that I would ever recognise Lily from this description! :hmm:Sadly, for both Lily and Snape, neither was listening to or trusting the advice of the other. Both of them chose to defend their housemates rather than carefully consider the uncomfortable truths their best friend saw, and which each of them did not want to see.
Why was this sad for Lily? Everything indicates that she had a very successful marriage to James. Are you suggesting that she shouldn't have married him - that is was a mistake because she didn't listen to Snape? :hmm:If Lily had trusted in Sev’s warning about James, she would not have naively succumbed to his dishonest charms, or have foolishly entrusted her own and her child’s safety to him and to the treacherous Wormtail.Oh, I see. You are suggesting that. I can't say I agree with you. Anyway, this scenario would make for a very short book series and we wouldn't be here discussing it now, so I'm glad Lily trusted her own judgement about James. :)

One of my big problems is that I think there's still a lot we DON'T know about Lily and her relationship with Snape. The memories Snape gave her are only bits and pieces. In no way does it summarize 5 or 6 years of being best friends. Like what kinds things did they do or play when they hung around the neighborhood? How were things between them the first couple of years? When did they start breaking apart, and was it really on the brink of collapse by "Snape's Worst Memory"? And whether they were close, falling apart, or after the breakup, they still had their summers near each other, so what happened between them in those summers? I seriously hope JKR has this backstory.

Obviously my anxiety is bursting.
I think JKR is leaving that up to our imaginations, and that's not really a bad thing. :) They were friends for seven years, from age 9 to 16 (Snape would have been 16 in SWM), and that's alot of time to spend holidays together. I think since JKR knew that Snape would die at a rather early age, and would never have much happiness later on, she wanted him to have alot of time with Lily as children.

Why was this sad for Lily? Everything indicates that she had a very successful marriage to James. Are you suggesting that she shouldn't have married him - that is was a mistake because she didn't listen to Snape?

It's a mistake, in the poster's opinion, because it led to her untimely death. Not because it was Snape's opinion.

Anyway, this scenario would make for a very short book series and we wouldn't be here discussing it now, so I'm glad Lily trusted her own judgement about James. :)

Very short, how? Nonexistent, rather, as there would be no Harry Potter to write a story about. Very short would be the version where Snape decided he could not care less about Lily after she chose James. :lol:

I think JKR is leaving that up to our imaginations, and that's not really a bad thing. :) They were friends for seven years, from age 9 to 16 (Snape would have been 16 in SWM), and that's alot of time to spend holidays together. I think since JKR knew that Snape would die at a rather early age, and would never have much happiness later on, she wanted him to have alot of time with Lily as children.

You do have a point. I'm just really curious because to me Lily still seems like a huge mystery. I feel we get a fare share of James because we're shown both the good and the bad. When we see scenes of him acting stupid, and when Sirius and Remus speak for him like crazy. We've already had two characters who were extremely close to Lily at one time, except that Petunia would never say jack. Snape's already dead so he's only able to give flashes of memories, and even if he were alive he probably wouldn't say jack either.

Okay, maybe Slughorn could count, but it still wouldn't be as great as what Petunia and Snape could offer.

You do have a point. I'm just really curious because to me Lily still seems like a huge mystery. I feel we get a fare share of James because we're shown both the good and the bad. When we see scenes of him acting stupid, and when Sirius and Remus speak for him like crazy. We've already had two characters who were extremely close to Lily at one time, except that Petunia would never say jack. Snape's already dead so he's only able to give flashes of memories, and even if he were alive he probably wouldn't say jack either.

It is odd, but apparently Harry wasn't curious about Lily, at least not in our hearing. He never seemed to ask the two people who knew her best (that he knew) about her - Sirius or Remus. He was more interested in his dad (understandable as he was a boy), but you would think he would ask things. He wouldn't ask Petunia I don't think because she had already lied to him saying his parents died in a car crash, so he likely didn't trust her.

It is very odd when you think of how much the letter Harry found, that Lily wrote, meant to him- he was quite torn up about it. But perhaps he didn't want to know more; he may have simply been content with what he knew. :)

If Lily had trusted in Sev’s warning about James, she would not have naively succumbed to his dishonest charms, or have foolishly entrusted her own and her child’s safety to him and to the treacherous Wormtail.

When was it ever stated by Jo that James had "dishonest charms"? I agree that trusting Peter was a mistake, but they didn't know any better - to James, his friends were just as trustworthy as Dumbledore, and so it would be like imagining Dumbledore betraying them. As for Lily having "foolishly entrusted" her own and Harry's safety to James, I don't see where the mistake was. He died to give them enough time to escape... how is that untrustworthy?

In my opinion, Snape was really just voicing his fears, not warning her. He didn't want her to be made a fool of by being with James, but that was never the case when she was with him, as we've seen - they were perfectly happy. Snape hated James, it was normal for him to say that kind of thing to her, but his word was not fact; it was up to Lily to make her own mind up about James, and she did, and I'm sure she was happy with that decision.

It's a mistake, in the poster's opinion, because it led to her untimely death. Not because it was Snape's opinion.

While I respect the poster's opinion, I don't see how it was a mistake, either way. Even if she died as a result of having a child with James, she was happy with him and Harry, and I could never see her trade years with him for her own life.

You do have a point. I'm just really curious because to me Lily still seems like a huge mystery. I feel we get a fare share of James because we're shown both the good and the bad. When we see scenes of him acting stupid, and when Sirius and Remus speak for him like crazy. We've already had two characters who were extremely close to Lily at one time, except that Petunia would never say jack. Snape's already dead so he's only able to give flashes of memories, and even if he were alive he probably wouldn't say jack either.

Yeah, I agree. Not to mention, asking Petunia about Lily would have been like asking Snape about James - to Harry, and to us, it was quite clear Petunia wasn't all that fond of her sister, lol, so the answers wouldn't have been all that favourable. And it would have been too touchy a subject to bring up with Snape as well, had he lived.

I'm still shocked he never asked the Order members who'd been around the first time about his parents. If it had been me, I wouldn't have shut up with the questions.

I think that Sanpe was so reluctent to aproach Lily because he was
a) afraid that she wouldn't like him
b) afraid of her sister ( I am too)
c) afraid of what his family would think because he was hanging out with muggleborns.
I think that he would still be interested in her if she wasn't magical, but he wouldn't be as facinated.

I think that even if Snape hadn't told her about the magical world she still would have been friendly.In those few pages about Lily and Snape I gain the impression that Lily is very friendly and kind, but if you are mean to her she will turn nasty and hex you into oblivion. Snape an omly child with not so great parents I think that Lily would have felt sorry for him and been very kind to him. even if he wasn't very nice.

I think that Lily and Snape were equalls in there friendship. Even though Snape had known about the wizarding world before meeting her. She could tell him a thing or too about performing magic.

I think that hogwarts affected their friendship, but not by much. Sure they both devoleped different friends innflencing them in ways good or bad, but it didn't make a huge impact on their friendsip.

Gryffindor changed Lily from a bit of a gullible youn witch (please put all sharp instruments down and slowly back away) to a ferce indepentent young women. It changed her in a good way. Snape with slytherin, well thats another story. Snapes new friends influenced him in very bad ways. causing him to start hexing people he didn't like every 6 feet, or calling people mudbloods.

I think that Snape and Lily had gradually started to grow appart and that the mudblood insult was just the last stroke.

Their wasn't really anything Snape could do to save the friendship. the Friend-Ship S(Severus)S (Snape).Lilly was bound for rumbledow (that is to say a watery grave)

I think that if (if, if is good) they had managed to save their friendship they would have a romantic futuer.Perhaps gotten maried [removed]and mabey had kids [removed]

It is odd, but apparently Harry wasn't curious about Lily, at least not in our hearing. He never seemed to ask the two people who knew her best (that he knew) about her - Sirius or Remus. He was more interested in his dad (understandable as he was a boy), but you would think he would ask things. He wouldn't ask Petunia I don't think because she had already lied to him saying his parents died in a car crash, so he likely didn't trust her.

I'm still shocked he never asked the Order members who'd been around the first time about his parents. If it had been me, I wouldn't have shut up with the questions.
To be honest, there's a lot of things I wish Harry would question that he doesn't. Then again, that's probably part of his character. (Plus the answers would give away too much wouldn't it? :cool:)

Well I felt it was always understood that Sirius and Remus were mostly James' friends. But he does go into asking about his mom a little when he's talking to them in the fireplace in Book 5. But yea, it doesn't seem that it's enough. Once again, this goes into the "things I wish Harry would have asked" pile.

I think that Snape was originally a nice person, but emotionally awkward. When someone goes up to him, he is uncomfortable in how to respond and this makes him come off as rude or cruel, even when he has good intentions. Lily was able to see past this and become friends with him.

The really sad part about this whole story is that Snape ruined the friendship with his own bad decisions, as well as other people's bad influences on him. Even though he was a good friend to Lily, he alone is to blame for driving her away. Snape realizes this and this is what gives him pain, that it is his fault that their friendship was broken and his fault that she died.

When I think of how Snape was feeling, I actually remembered what Sirius said about surviving Azkaban, he just kept thinking "I was innocent" because that was the only truth he could cling to. With Snape, he has to be thinking the exact opposite, that it is all his fault. To go through life thinking this, it shows his strength of character that he is still able to keep going.

Good idea to focus on their relationship :tu:

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

Firstly I don't think he'd have been as interested in her if she hadn't been magical, but I do believe that he might still have been attracted to her. Personally I think that he would have been reluctant to approach her because of his childhood, he hadn't a good family life and I doubt that he would have been included by other children near him, even if he had wanted to. The fact that Lily had magic gave them a common link and made her more approachable in his eyes, because he could help her to understand her magical powers.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

I think that Lily was accepting of Snapes friendship primarily because of the person she was. In any of the scenes that have shown her during her school days she always seemed to be a genuine and honest person who tried to see the good in people around her. They might not have gotten as close to him if he had not told her about the magical world, Petunia was quite insistent on getting her away from Snape at their first meeting and without the magical bond Lily might have listened to Petunia more than she listened to Snape.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

I think that they each brought different qualities to the friendship. Lily was kind and affectionate towards Snape, which gave him the affection he had quite possibly been craving for most of his life. She was also a willing 'pupil' in that she wanted to learn as much about Hogwarts and magical life as Snape was able to tell her, and he was quite happy to teach her.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

I think they had to work hard to keep their friendship alive once they got to Hogwarts and were sorted into different houses. With the intense rivalry between Gryffindor & Slytherin they were both probably encouraged to not be friends by their classmates.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

Gryffindor would have made Lily more aware of what was going on within the magical world. It probably made her conscious of what being in slytherin meant.

Slytherin gave Snape the chance to become friends with people who shared his opinions, I don't think that it changed him drastically but it did contribute to him joining the Death Eaters as it was probably the first time he had really been included and made to feel welcome.

To be honest, there's a lot of things I wish Harry would question that he doesn't. Then again, that's probably part of his character. (Plus the answers would give away too much wouldn't it? :cool:)

Well I felt it was always understood that Sirius and Remus were mostly James' friends. But he does go into asking about his mom a little when he's talking to them in the fireplace in Book 5. But yea, it doesn't seem that it's enough. Once again, this goes into the "things I wish Harry would have asked" pile.

Sirius and Remus lived with Lily for seven years and then were friends with her until she died. Also she called them by their marauder nicknames, so it appears they all became quite close. Sirius and Remus could have told Harry a lot about Lily. :) But in reality, I think we got a pretty good picture of who she is.

When I think of how Snape was feeling, I actually remembered what Sirius said about surviving Azkaban, he just kept thinking "I was innocent" because that was the only truth he could cling to. With Snape, he has to be thinking the exact opposite, that it is all his fault. To go through life thinking this, it shows his strength of character that he is still able to keep going.
Hence why many of us feel so bad for him. :sad:

Sirius and Remus lived with Lily for seven years and then were friends with her until she died. Also she called them by their marauder nicknames, so it appears they all became quite close. Sirius and Remus could have told Harry a lot about Lily.
Yes, I can see this. Problem is Harry never questions it. But as I said before, to do that would give away too much away. So to explain why Harry doesn't question it as a character, it could just be said that that was how Harry was. Not everyone knows what or how to question things at the right time.

Anyway, back to Snape and Lily...

I think being in Gryffindor accentuated Lily’s cold self-righteousness and know-it-all arrogance.
Out of curiousity, where in canon did we learn that Lily had cold self-righteousness and know-it-all arrogance? And where in canon has this ever been cited as a trait of Gryffindors? The only know-it-all we've ever seen has been Hermione. And that seems to be a trait exclusively hers. And the only Gryffindor traits I've heard cited have to do with bravery and loyalty.

When I think of how Snape was feeling, I actually remembered what Sirius said about surviving Azkaban, he just kept thinking "I was innocent" because that was the only truth he could cling to. With Snape, he has to be thinking the exact opposite, that it is all his fault. To go through life thinking this, it shows his strength of character that he is still able to keep going.
Great point! Since we know that "survivor's guilt" is such a strong theme in the books, from Albus to Sirius to Harry, then Snape is just one more victim of that. He really wanted to save Lily's life, but failed, and that's all he thought about till the day he died. It's really very sad. :(

Out of curiousity, where in canon did we learn that Lily had cold self-righteousness and know-it-all arrogance?
I believe The Black Adder is referring to the fact that Lily did not believe Lupin was a werewolf or that Sirius might have planned the Werewolf incident for which Lily thought James was a hero for saving Severus.

I feel that Lily is a bit like Harry - she likes the Marauders and doesn't want to think badly of them, so she dismisses it when Snape tires to tell her the truth. In fact, I'd say she is exactly like Harry. :)

I believe The Black Adder is referring to the fact that Lily did not believe Lupin was a werewolf or that Sirius might have planned the Werewolf incident for which Lily thought James was a hero for saving Severus. Well none of that indicates self-righteousness or know-it-all arrogance. It merely shows that she didn't care to hear Snape bad-mouthing others, probably because she had heard it all before.

I believe The Black Adder is referring to the fact that Lily did not believe Lupin was a werewolf or that Sirius might have planned the Werewolf incident for which Lily thought James was a hero for saving Severus.

I feel that Lily is a bit like Harry - she likes the Marauders and doesn't want to think badly of them, so she dismisses it when Snape tires to tell her the truth. In fact, I'd say she is exactly like Harry. :)

Well, I'll just quote the scene for better reference.

'That was nothing,' said Snape. 'It was a laugh, that's all -'
'It was Dark Magic, and if you think that's funny -'
'What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?' demanded Snape. His colour rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed, to hold in his resentment.
'What's Potter got to do with anything?' said Lily.
'They sneak out at night. There's something weird about that Lupin. Where does he keep going?'
'He's ill,' said Lily. 'They say he's ill -'
'Every month at the full moon?' said Snape.
'I know your theory,' said Lily, and she sounded cold. 'Why are you so obsessed with them, anyway? Why do you care what they're doing at night?'
'I'm just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.'
The intensity of his gaze made her blush.
'They don't use Dark Magic, though.' She dropped her voice. 'And you're being really ungrateful. I heard what happened the other night. You went sneaking down that tunnel by the Whomping Willow and James Potter saved you from whatever's down there -'
Snape's whole face contorted and he spluttered, 'Saved? Saved? You think he was playing the hero? He was saving his neck and his friends' too! You're not going to - I won't let you -'
'Let me? Let me?'

Remus was a pretty sensible person, and he was a fellow Prefect. I think Lily liked him well enough. And even if she didn't, it wasn't any of Snape's business to try to find out what his 'illness' was. I think she felt Snape was being nosy, and that's why she spoke coldly towards him. If the Marauders said Remus was ill, she wasn't going to go prying to find out what it was all about - illnesses are usually quite personal. So I don't see how she had 'cold self-righteousness and know-it-all arrogance'.

As for the whole defending the Marauders thing... I don't think there was much truth in what Snape was saying. He made it sound like they were doing worse stuff than Mulciber, and Lily knew that wasn't true, and so she defended them against an unfair accusation - they didn't use Dark Magic. She seemed to be a pretty level headed person, and could defend someone even when they weren't her favourite person in the world. And Snape was being ungrateful towards James. Even if James only saved Snape so that Sirius and Remus wouldn't live with the guilt (I think that's a pretty good motivation, anyways!), he did put his own life at risk to pull Snape back. How is it any different than Snape putting his own life at risk to save Harry, when he wasn't doing it at all for Harry in the end, but for someone he actually cared about? Though I do think James was doing it part because he didn't believe Snape deserved to die. I think he was like Harry in the way that he had a bit of a "saving people thing". ;)

Anyways, I don't see how any of these things show Lily as having had cold self-righteousness and know-it-all arrogance. She was a bright girl, but she was also very fair. I think she was quite good at looking at things from both sides, and so even if she didn't particularily like the Marauders, she could defend them against false accusations.

As for the whole defending the Marauders thing... I don't think there was much truth in what Snape was saying. He made it sound like they were doing worse stuff than Mulciber, and Lily knew that wasn't true, and so she defended them against an unfair accusation - they didn't use Dark Magic.

Severus did not say they did, as the quote you cite clearly shows. He was vague about it, suggesting merely that they did something objectionable. They did, however, do things that were life-threatening (if they were not life-threatening, James could not have saved Severus's life), which I doubt was the case with Mulciber and Mary, and is serious in its own way.

Anyways, I don't see how any of these things show Lily as having had cold self-righteousness and know-it-all arrogance. She was a bright girl, but she was also very fair.

Where she comes across as self-righteous and a bit of a know-it-all in the passage you cite is that she has heard only one side of the story, and concludes from that alone that her view of what happened is correct. Note she does not ask Severus what happened, she simply accuses him of ingratitude. I don't see how that is 'very fair'.

I believe The Black Adder is referring to the fact that Lily did not believe Lupin was a werewolf or that Sirius might have planned the Werewolf incident for which Lily thought James was a hero for saving Severus.
Well none of that indicates self-righteousness or know-it-all arrogance. It merely shows that she didn't care to hear Snape bad-mouthing others, probably because she had heard it all before.[/quote]

She had heard it all before, and dismissed it, but it was true, and she dismisses it as false.

Snape wasn't bad-mouthing Lupin by saying he was a werewolf - that was true.

Snape wasn't lying when he said James and the rest were running around doing things on the sly - that was the truth. She is dismissing what she already knows is true, and that's what reminds me of Harry.

I wouldn't use the word "arrogance," but actually the opposite - I think Lily is naive, and so does Snape. At that point, Lily didn't know everything about the Marauders and she dismisses the truth, and I guess later on she doesn't care. But Snape isn't "bad-mouthing" them as much as warning her about reality.

Remus was a pretty sensible person, and he was a fellow Prefect. I think Lily liked him well enough. And even if she didn't, it wasn't any of Snape's business to try to find out what his 'illness' was
But Snape was right and he knew he was telling the truth because the Werewolf Prank had already happened. :) He felt that Lily could have been in danger - there was no Wolfsbane Potion back then.

And Snape was being ungrateful towards James. Even if James only saved Snape so that Sirius and Remus wouldn't live with the guilt (I think that's a pretty good motivation, anyways!), he did put his own life at risk to pull Snape back.
The big thing Lily doesn't know is that Sirius sent Snape into danger, and James pulled him out of it. And I doubt she ever knew anything about it, as Sirius says about Lily. She was too trusting - and Snape knew that about her.

Snape wasn't lying to her - Snape hardly ever lies to anyone in the books.

I got the impression that maybe Lily did think Remus was a werewolf but obviously didn't have the same problem with it that Snape had.I'm sure she knew Remus was a nice person and didn't hold it against him,in fact I can see her sympathizing with him.

Well none of that indicates self-righteousness or know-it-all arrogance. It merely shows that she didn't care to hear Snape bad-mouthing others, probably because she had heard it all before.[/quote]

She had heard it all before, and dismissed it, but it was true, and she dismisses it as false.

Snape wasn't bad-mouthing Lupin by saying he was a werewolf - that was true. [/QUOTE]

I respect your opinion, however, in this case, Snape was betraying DD's trust - DD had specifically told him not to speak of Lupin to anyone. His intimations were the same thing. Snape didn't have a right to tell Lily anything at all, but because he was merely intimating based on their past conversations (which Lily didn't believe) Lily would understand Snape to be 'bad mouthing' Lupin over an 'illness'. From Lily's perspective, it would be very unkind of Snape to speak that way. I believe that is what put her on the defensive. She saw the good in everyone - including Lupin.



The big thing Lily doesn't know is that Sirius sent Snape into danger, and James pulled him out of it. And I doubt she ever knew anything about it, as Sirius says about Lily. She was too trusting - and Snape knew that about her.

Snape wasn't lying to her - Snape hardly ever lies to anyone in the books.

Again, I respect your opinion, however, Snape was not telling Lily the entire truth. He was omitting a couple of key points and I think that is what made Lily fly onto the defensive (as I indicated above). Lily doesn't know that Sirius told Snape how to stop the tree and that there was a tunnel there - and that if he wanted to know what Lupin was up to he could traverse the tunnel. But Lily also didn't know that Snape took the advice of his enemy, walked the tunnel unforced and of his own accord on the night of a full moon - fully expecting to confirm his 'theory' that Lupin was a werewolf. He expected to find a werewolf and did. So considering he was leaving out all of the pertinent facts, Snape could not expect for Lily to sympathise with him; she was thinking he was belittling Remus for an 'illness'. It is reasonable that would upset her imo.


Anyways, I don't see how any of these things show Lily as having had cold self-righteousness and know-it-all arrogance. She was a bright girl, but she was also very fair. I think she was quite good at looking at things from both sides, and so even if she didn't particularily like the Marauders, she could defend them against false accusations.

I would agree with this. That sums up Lily's character in this regard for me as well. She seemed to be the type that would defend whoever she felt was in the right. She defended Snape in SWM for that reason and in their later conversation, I feel she defended the Mauraders for the same reason.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
I think he probably would still have been interested in her, but maybe not quite as interested if she was magical. He was likely reluctant to approach her because I see him as being a bit socially awkward, likely due to his less than ideal childhood. He probably felt awkward in approaching someone he was attracted to for fear of rejection.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?
Lily struck me as someone who was willing to see the good in everybody. Though Snape might have been awkward, he was nice to her, so I'm sure she appreciated his friendship in that regard. I think they would have had less to talk about if Snape hadn't told her about the magical world. When two people find something in common to talk about or relate to, their relationship tends to develop farther than if they don't.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?
I believe it was indeed a friendship of equals. I have a feeling Snape and Lily probably studied potions together - I think either Snape taught Lily to be proficient in potions, or they both were naturally good at it.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
Hogwarts may have made it harder for the friendship to exist, since Gryffindor and Slytherin were bitter enemies and it would have been harder for Lily and Snape to spend time with each other on account of being in different Houses. But I do believe both of them likely worked to maintain the friendship despite the House difference - if it was important to them (and I believe it was), they wouldn't have cared what others said about them "fraternizing with the enemy".

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?
I'm not sure Gryffindor changed Lily at all, or that Slytherin changed Snape - each had her or his own personality and true nature that was aligned with her or his own House. It's always hard to speculate on what might have been if things had been different because there are so many possibilities. If they'd been in the same House, it may have been easier to maintain the friendship.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?
I think a combination of those things probably killed the friendship since it was on the rocks for a while, but the mudblood comment might have been the final straw. I see that as the proverbial "nail in the coffin", so to speak, because whether or not Snape truly meant it deep down (and I'm not sure he did), it was a testament to how immersed in the Death Eaters' ideals Snape had become.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?
If Snape had listened for Lily's pleas not to become immersed in the Dark Arts I'm sure the friendship would still be alive. He had numerous opportunities to choose Lily over the Death Eaters, but he chose the latter.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?
I firmly believe that James was the right person for Lily, and thus I don't believe Snape and Lily would ever have developed a romantic future (but that's just my opinion). I do believe, however, that they would have been good friends throughout their lives.


You know, Snape reminds me a little bit of Anakin Skywalker - making the wrong decisions for the right reasons. Anakin chose to go to the Dark Side because he wanted to save Padme from death, while Snape wanted to join the Death Eaters to impress Lily and to gain power and recognition. Both chose the wrong side on account of someone they loved, and in both cases it ended up killing the very people that mattered most.

But Snape isn't "bad-mouthing" them as much as warning her about reality.
Snape was ragging on them. He was harping on negativity that Lily didn't want to hear because she had heard it all before. Regardless of whether he was right or not, her objection was to his obsession with them and how ugly it sounded. And the Maruders weren't up to evil--they were up to foolhardy and reckless night wandering. It wasn't right, but it wasn't dark magic, either.

You know, Snape reminds me a little bit of Anakin Skywalker - making the wrong decisions for the right reasons. Anakin chose to go to the Dark Side because he wanted to save Padme from death, while Snape wanted to join the Death Eaters to impress Lily and to gain power and recognition. Both chose the wrong side on account of someone they loved, and in both cases it ended up killing the very people that mattered most.
I'm sure there's some Star Wars thread where this could be discussed in the Pensieve, but there is a major difference with Anakin. He never showed remorse until the very end of his life, and he nearly killed his own son and would have if Luke hadn't escaped. Snape never tried to kill Harry at all, and continues to protect him all his life.

Anakin is a child-killer, and slaughters hundreds of people for revenge.

Snape never did anything like that in the name of Lily - it's vastly darker than Snape.

I'm sure there's some Star Wars thread where this could be discussed in the Pensieve, but there is a major difference with Anakin. He never showed remorse until the very end of his life, and he nearly killed his own son and would have if Luke hadn't escaped. Snape never tried to kill Harry at all, and continues to protect him all his life.

Anakin is a child-killer, and slaughters hundreds of people for revenge.

Snape never did anything like that in the name of Lily - it's vastly darker than Snape.

I do understand the correlation being made; they were alike in the ways mentioned. However, I agree; no one can compare to Anaken imo; one of the greatest dark characters ever created. :)

Snape, I believe, did have a dark past (his DE years). We don't know all that he actually did. He may have been involved in some of the mass murder of Muggles that took place during the first war - or the killing of the Order members. But following Snape's involvement with the DEs, I do feel that his character continued to carry traces of his dark past. Some of his actions and his continued interest in the dark arts made me feel that it was a part of him that he could never entirely flush out of his system. My impression was that those factors driving the darker side of his character were in him from a very young age and peaked his initial interest in the dark arts and Voldemort.

Imo, this was directly related to Snape's misunderstanding of Lily's view of himself (characterwise). Exploring his developing character over time, it became evident to me that in that way he never really changed.

I think Snape, with DD's help, was able to supress his leanings in that direction and only now and then would bits surface. I believe that is what Harry 'felt' - the vibe he seemed to feel coming from Snape from time to time - and at moments, I think he clearly recognized it. Snape, although showing himself to be perceptive at times, seemed to have a bit of a blind spot when it came to looking at himself as he would be seen by others, imo. He wanted power and respect, but there were things about his persona, both physical and mental (emotional), as well as character and behavior wise, that would cause others to lack respect and eschew the thought of him as powerful.

I think that did cause Snape some inner turmoil, because I don't believe he could ever put his finger on the problem - he didn't realize that it was him creating the dilemna. This was the same problem that he had with Lily imo. He believed that she would appreciate him in a place of power and that it would increase her respect for him. He was unable to see that the person he had allowed himself to become was a flaw in his plan that existed prior to his ever moving to complete the plan (joining the DEs and gaining power, etc.)

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think he was reluctant to approach her because he thought she was pretty! :lol: But not just that, I think there was a whole lot of insecurity in him, and he was simply afraid of being rejected.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?
Yes, I believe she would have been as friendly towards him, regardless of his knowledge of the magical world. I think she was simply a very friendly girl, willing to give anyone a chance.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?
I think so, yes. Snape told Lily about the magical world, which was a good way of getting her interested in talking to him. She liked to hear about it, and he liked talking to her. She probably made him feel "safe", for want of a better word.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
I believe so, yes. If Severus was in love with her, then I think it unlikely that he would have been willing to make her do all the work to keep their friendship alive.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?
I don't think their houses necessarily changed them. Especially not Lily. Severus always seemed to have a certain darkness around him though, so I don't think Slytherin changed him. Just that he wanted to fit in somewhere, and in order to fit in in his house, he fell in with a bad set of friends. But even if he had been made a Gryffindor, I don't believe he would have behaved much differently. He would still have resented James and the other Marauders, and I think he would probably have chosen the same path. I believe Lily was a strong enough character to stick to what she believed in, no matter what. A change of house probably wouldn't have altered that.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

The mudblood insult was probably the final straw for Lily. I think she was getting increasingly frustrated with him for dabbling in the Dark Arts, but that comment was the thing that finished it off.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?
I believe that if Snape had had the courage to telll Lily he loved her, she would have returned the sentiment and he would have dropped his Slytherin friends for her, or at least had less contact with them. The fact that he never even tried is what makes it so sad, to me at least.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?
I think they would have dated. I don't know whether it would have been a lifelong romance, but I think Lily would have given him a chance.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?
I believe that if Snape had had the courage to telll Lily he loved her, she would have returned the sentiment and he would have dropped his Slytherin friends for her, or at least had less contact with them. The fact that he never even tried is what makes it so sad, to me at least.


I see this point much as you do. The thing about the break-up scene is, I think Sev had decided to do just that. This is why I sooo wish Lily would have let him finish a few of his own sentences in that scene, instead of finishing a lot of them for him, then asking a question and closing the door in his face before he answered it.

To be clear - I think her reasons for deciding to break it off were fine, she was right to consider his use of a racist term against her and others wrong. Allowing him to say whatever he had come to say, though, would not have required sacrificing those principles.

I see this point much as you do. The thing about the break-up scene is, I think Sev had decided to do just that. This is why I sooo wish Lily would have let him finish a few of his own sentences in that scene, instead of finishing a lot of them for him, then asking a question and closing the door in his face before he answered it.
I never really thought of it that way. I think you may be right, actually. But he certainly left it too late. He should have brought it up sooner. :(

I never really thought of it that way. I think you may be right, actually. But he certainly left it too late. He should have brought it up sooner. :(

We don't know how far apart SWM and the previous conversation with Lily in "The Prince's Tale" happened. It was the same school year, since we know from earlier information that the "Prank" occured when Sirius was 16, so it could be no earlier than some time fifth year. That conversation marks the point that we can guess Sev's interest in Lily has developed a romantic element (based on his reaction when she insults his perceived rival, James). It could have been only weeks - perhaps Sev wanted to wait for the summer, when they must have spent more time together than they could at school, what with schoolwork and being in different Houses. I'm sure he never planned to insult her.

We don't know how far apart SWM and the previous conversation with Lily in "The Prince's Tale" happened. It was the same school year, since we know from earlier information that the "Prank" occured when Sirius was 16, so it could be no earlier than some time fifth year. That conversation marks the point that we can guess Sev's interest in Lily has developed a romantic element (based on his reaction when she insults his perceived rival, James). It could have been only weeks - perhaps Sev wanted to wait for the summer, when they must have spent more time together than they could at school, what with schoolwork and being in different Houses. I'm sure he never planned to insult her.
That's a good point about Severus wanting to wait until summer when he knew he and Lily would have more time alone. We know from the other books how much time it took to study for OWL exams also, so they couldn't have had much time together before the exams. That's sad.

I imagine the scene Harry sees during Occlumency of a boy sitting in a dark room killing flies is Sev during the following summer, without his best friend for the first time. Lily might have even gone away to visit a friend to get away from both Snape and Petunia.

I believe that if Snape had had the courage to telll Lily he loved her, she would have returned the sentiment and he would have dropped his Slytherin friends for her, or at least had less contact with them.

Unlike zg, I don't fully agree with this. Lily's behavior during the last moments of their friendship (SWM) doesn't indicate to me even the seed of any interest in Severus. If Lily were really thinking of her friend when she approached the bullying crowd, she'd have gotten him away from his tormentors pronto and then chewed out James. As it is, she lets her best friend crawl about on the ground to fight off the Impedimenta hex by himself. James gets all of her attention.
So by that time, I think it was too late for Lily to have reciprocated Sev's feelings for her. Now, if they gave it time, attention, and effort, maybe she would have in the end. But life as I know it doesn't really work that way.

However, I do agree that Severus would have limited his time around the junior-DEs for her. I think it meant enough to him.

I have actually wondered whether he hadn't already limited his time with Avery and Mulciber. It isn't as if he went to talk to them straight after NEWTs. And they certainly do not come to his aid in SWM.

My conclusion is that he had either already distanced himself from them a bit or they are not in the same year.

Interesting factoid about the name "Mulciber":

Found Here (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:O3vVQ7Tya2oJ:www.fronskiefeint.com/namemeanings2.shtml+name+meaning+mulciber&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&ie=UTF-8)

Mulciber: In Greek mythology, Mulciber was the gentle son of Zeus and Hera. He bore a club foot and was a craftsman and blacksmith; Mulciber was also a character in John Milton's "Paradise Lost." In the story, Mulciber was a fallen angel who is the architect of Pandemonium, the capital of Hell.

Mulciber in the case of Snape/Lily certainly does unleash a sort of hell on Snape, because it is due to his influence that he becomes a DE and loses Lily.

Interesting factoid about the name "Mulciber":

Found Here (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:O3vVQ7Tya2oJ:www.fronskiefeint.com/namemeanings2.shtml+name+meaning+mulciber&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&ie=UTF-8)



Mulciber in the case of Snape/Lily certainly does unleash a sort of hell on Snape, because it is due to his influence that he becomes a DE and loses Lily.

We don't know if it was because of Mulciber. We know Snape had an interest in the Dark Arts from an early age, and he thought Muggles were below him. Knowing what Voldemort was up to, I think Snape's want to become a Death Eater was entirely his own. Mulciber definitely wasn't a good influence, that's true, but Snape made his own decisions and he lost Lily on his own. That's his greatest mistake, and he knows it. I think it being almost entirely his own fault (his choices and all) makes his story that much more powerful in the end.

Interesting factoid about the name "Mulciber":

Found Here (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:O3vVQ7Tya2oJ:www.fronskiefeint.com/namemeanings2.shtml+name+meaning+mulciber&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&ie=UTF-8)



Mulciber in the case of Snape/Lily certainly does unleash a sort of hell on Snape, because it is due to his influence that he becomes a DE and loses Lily.

Respecting your opinion, but my impression wasn't that Mulciber was leading Snape, just that he and Snape were friends due to the fact that they were both interested in the dark arts/Voldy. I don't recall who suggested it, but it is possible that Snape's mum had been a friend of Tom Riddle's and/or was a death eater herself (prior to her marriage). Perhaps if she was not happy with her marriage, she rejoined and enouraged Snape's thinking in that regard. That would explain his arrival at Hogwarts already knowing a number of curses. In any case, I think Snape made his own mind up about letting Lily go in the end.

Interesting factoid about the name "Mulciber":

Found Here (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:O3vVQ7Tya2oJ:www.fronskiefeint.com/namemeanings2.shtml+name+meaning+mulciber&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&ie=UTF-8)



Mulciber in the case of Snape/Lily certainly does unleash a sort of hell on Snape, because it is due to his influence that he becomes a DE and loses Lily.



That is an interesting factoid SIP :tu:. JKR is very meticulous in which names she picks and I believe she does them for a reason.

Originally Posted by CBW
Out of curiousity, where in canon did we learn that Lily had cold self-righteousness and know-it-all arrogance?
I believe The Black Adder is referring to the fact that Lily did not believe Lupin was a werewolf or that Sirius might have planned the Werewolf incident for which Lily thought James was a hero for saving Severus.

You've lost me. How does not believing that 16 year old Lupin was a werewolf indicate "cold self-righteousness and know-it-all arrogance"?He felt that Lily could have been in danger - there was no Wolfsbane Potion back then.
I see how you reach this conclusion, but there is nothing in the text to indicate that concern for Lily's safety was Snape's primary objective in exposing Remus. On the other hand, we are told that he wanted to get the Marauders into trouble, and his own words seem to bear this out.'What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?' demanded Snape. His colour rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed, to hold in his resentment.

But Snape was right and he knew he was telling the truth because the Werewolf Prank had already happened. :) He felt that Lily could have been in danger - there was no Wolfsbane Potion back then.


I would respectfully disagree with this. Snape knew that Lily had lived with Remus for 5 years and there was nothing to fear. Futher, Lily wasn't following the Marauders around and had no intention of sneaking into the tunnel and following Remus. She told Snape she believed it was an illness and so Snape knew that she was in no danger. In addition, Snape knew that there were many safeguards in place, foremost Remus' friends who had just saved him in the tunnel a few nights before.

I do not believe Snape was concerned at all about Lily's safety; he was attempting to point out that Remus was a werewolf; something that Snape had promised DD to keep secret and was as good as revealing it to Lily with all of his hinting after the fact (considering he'd told her about his 'theory' before). Snape knew that Lily had a soft spot for James and he wished to point out anything negative he could with respect to the Marauders in order to lessen her respect for them in general and her regard for James in specific. Snape indicated that he didn't want Lily to make a fool of herself, he didn't mention anything about her coming to harm.

Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
Well his father didn't seem like a pleasant man to be with. He probably was used to being alone. Everyone is afraid of rejection and I'm sure he was afraid of being rejected by Lily. She most likely was the only person with any magic in her in the area. It would hurt if he was rejected by the one person he could find himself relating to.

Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?
I interpret Lily as being a really compassionate person. I'm sure she would've been friendly even if he didn't tell her about the magical word. I don't think change in his appearance ever would've changed her attitude towards him.


How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
Yes, definitely. When they got free time I could imagine them meeting up on the grounds and talking. Plus they had Potions together and lived near each other. It wouldn't have been that difficult for them to keep their friendship strong.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?
I think it was Lily's realization that Snape was no longer the person he used to be. His insecurities led him to his attraction to becoming a DE. And he was hanging around with people who aspired to be Death Eaters too! Once Lily realized that he was changing for the worse, she realized the friendship would have to end at some point. Their friendship wasn't that great when SWM came around. If it was, I think she would've paid Snape a bit more attention. But the mudblood comment was the last straw. . . .

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?
Well, I think Lily did make the right choice. She did try to warn him that being friends with Mulciber and Avery wasn't right in her eyes. She could've either continued to hang out with him or end the friendship. The latter was the best choice at the time.
Snape definitely could've made a different choice. But he was insecure and that caused him to want to become a DE ... if he was able to resist the Dark Arts, I'm sure hte friendship could've survived.

Unlike zg, I don't fully agree with this. Lily's behavior during the last moments of their friendship (SWM) doesn't indicate to me even the seed of any interest in Severus. If Lily were really thinking of her friend when she approached the bullying crowd, she'd have gotten him away from his tormentors pronto and then chewed out James. As it is, she lets her best friend crawl about on the ground to fight off the Impedimenta hex by himself. James gets all of her attention.

I don't necessarily believe that if Snape had declared himself during the break-up scene, Lily would have admitted she reciprocated his feelings. What I do believe is that, had she given him the opportunity, and responded however, even if it was, "Sev, I could not possibly fall in love with someone who aspires to be a Death Eater and looks down on Muggleborns like myself", it would have been a better way to end a friendship of that importance to both of them.

Of course, her refusal to listen to him was possibly part and parcel of what you are pointing out - perhaps she already did not think of him as a friend, even before he insulted her.

I don't necessarily believe that if Snape had declared himself during the break-up scene, Lily would have admitted she reciprocated his feelings. What I do believe is that, had she given him the opportunity, and responded however, even if it was, "Sev, I could not possibly fall in love with someone who aspires to be a Death Eater and looks down on Muggleborns like myself", it would have been a better way to end a friendship of that importance to both of them.

Of course, her refusal to listen to him was possibly part and parcel of what you are pointing out - perhaps she already did not think of him as a friend, even before he insulted her.

I agree with you that it was possible that Lily had already ended the friendship in her mind.

But my impression was that she was really tremendously hurt by Snape's calling her a mudblood. She had heard him use it with others and although she didn't like it, it would be easy for her to believe that 1) she was special in his eyes and he wouldn't ever think of her in that way and 2) he didn't really mean it when he said it to others - after all he was her friend. So it must be that he just was mimicking his friends.

However, all of those thoughts would be blown out of the water when Snape called her a mudblood directly. Lily seemed to have a lot of back bone - she didn't seem to mind standing up for things and confronting people (at least not the Marauders or Snape). So I think she might have been a no nonsense type of girl. Once Snape crossed the line - that was it. He'd obviously come close to doing so many times before - hence her making excuses, etc. However, the name calling likely sent any justifications she had for their relationship down the tubes and spelled the end of it all.

So I think that remark may have been the straw that broke the camels back. After that, it didn't really matter what Snape said - apologies, explanations, etc., wouldn't matter because he had crossed the final line.

That was my take on it. :)

I apologize for the delay in responding. It is difficult for me to participate in ongoing discussions due to time constraints, but there were a few replies to my comments which in particular I wanted to respond to.


Originally Posted by The Black Adder:
I think being in Gryffindor accentuated Lily’s cold self-righteousness and know-it-all arrogance.

Response by Anabel:
I can't say that I would ever recognise Lily from this description!

Out of curiousity, where in canon did we learn that Lily had cold self-righteousness and know-it-all arrogance? And where in canon has this ever been cited as a trait of Gryffindors? The only know-it-all we've ever seen has been Hermione. And that seems to be a trait exclusively hers. And the only Gryffindor traits I've heard cited have to do with bravery and loyalty.

I appreciate those who tried to explain what I meant, although they only partially addressed what I had in mind. Let me direct you to the canon and what I see there:

Lily in relationships as a child

When we first see Lily she is blithely and willfully utilizing her magic even though her mother and her older sister told her not to.

When Sev tells her she is a witch, she joins her sister with “her nose in the air”, and they are “united in disapproval.”

Talking to Sev on the riverbank, Lily shows a moment of kindness in asking about his homelife, but Lily is not a budding social worker. She is clearly there to hear about the magical world.

When Sev’s involuntary magic causes the branch to break off and hit Petunia, her condemnation of Sev is reminiscent of the Dursley’s against Harry when he causes his aunt to blow up like a balloon.

“Did you make that happen?…You did! You did! You hurt her!”

We know that in both cases neither of the young wizards had control over what they did, and yet Lily immediately blames Sev and holds him responsible for hurting Petunia.

At the train station, Lily sounds sweet and kind at first in trying to console Petunia, reassuring her that she will “persuade Dumbledore” to change his mind. But then when Petunia lashes out at her, oh boy! The clever sister makes sure her parents aren’t watching, because Lily knows they would not be happy with what she’s about to do. Then she goes for the throat, telling her older sister she knows Petunia would really like to be going to Hogwarts herself and had begged the headmaster to let her in. Lily’s voice is “low and fierce.” This is intended to hurt her sister back.

Then when Petunia calls her on her invasion of her privacy, Lily can’t just admit that she was curious herself about the letter, but blames it all on Sev! If she thought “sneaking a look” was such a terrible thing to do, then why did she read the letter?!!

On the train, Lily doesn’t want to talk to Sev (throws him a look of “deep dislike”) because Tuney’s mad at her about the letter. But it was Lily who spitefully told Petunia she had seen it so that she could get back at her!

A few moments later, however, it is James and Sirius she dislikes and leads Sev out with a “lofty voice”.

My conclusions to this point: Lily is the younger sister and likely quite pampered and adored. According to Petunia in PS/SS, their parents were delighted to have a witch in the family. Lily comes across to me as a little spoiled. (I say this as a pampered youngest child who fully understands what it means to be spoiled!)

The young pre-Hogwarts Lily demonstrates:

Occasional moments of empathy
An inflated opinion of herself, as she assumes she’s going to have a chat with Dumbledore and tell him what’s what.
A quick, hot temper
Vicious spite
She is very judgmental
And has an inability to own up to her own feelings, desires, and faults.

It is this list of traits that I previously summarized or translated as “cold self-righteousness and know-it-all arrogance”. If you don’t recognize that description, then perhaps “occasionally kind, but self-delusional, judgmental, and spiteful” would be a better fit?

These traits will re-appear, but first I will look at how her Gryffindor sorting eventually influenced the teenage Lily.

Out of curiousity, where in canon did we learn that Lily had cold self-righteousness and know-it-all arrogance? And where in canon has this ever been cited as a trait of Gryffindors? The only know-it-all we've ever seen has been Hermione. And that seems to be a trait exclusively hers. And the only Gryffindor traits I've heard cited have to do with bravery and loyalty.

It is Hufflepuffs who are said to be loyal, just, and hardworkers, BTW. Gryffindors are brave, daring, and bold, also supposed to be chivalrous. Ravenclaws are clever, of wit and learning. Slytherins are cunning and ambitious, though in PS/SS the hat says students “may find their real friends” in Slytherin, which I find curious.

I did not say that Lily got her cold self-righteousness and know-it-all arrogance from Gryffindor house or was sorted there because of those traits specifically.

What I said was:
I think over time both were influenced by and succumbed to the prejudices and peer pressures of their housemates. I think being in Gryffindor accentuated Lily’s cold self-righteousness and know-it-all arrogance.

I meant that the intense and long-standing rivalry between Gryffindor and Slytherin was what affected her.

Hwyla said it perhaps a little better a little ways back:
"I think she fell for the 'all Gryffindors are 'good'' line."

Also the corollary that "Slytherins are all dark and bad." I think that over time such attitudes and prejudice coming from Lily’s housemates supported and encouraged her own inclinations to have an over-inflated ego, to be judgmental, and have a sense that she can do no wrong.

Teenage Lily in relationships

In the 4th year memory, the first after the gap in time, Snape learns that Lily does not like the Slytherin guys that he has been hanging around with. In his own defense, Sev then points out that Lily’s Gryffindor housemates, James Potter and his friends are no better in their activities. But Lily doesn’t want to hear the uncomfortable truth about her own housemates anymore than does Sev. Her tone turns “cold”. She justifies the Marauders’s actions with “They don’t use Dark Magic though,” as though that makes it all right what they do use. By defending James and Sirius, Lily loses whatever moral authority she might have had in lecturing or warning Sev.

Why did Lily feel compelled to defend them at all? Why not condemn ALL hexing pranks and pranksters? It is significant that JKR does not specify what Mulciber was trying to do to Mary Macdonald so that readers cannot objectively evaluate his actions. All we have is Lily’s pronouncement. She says it was evil. She declares it was Dark Magic. Lily is both judge and jury. Case closed. But we do know what kinds of things James and Sirius find funny--“hexing people because he can”, enlarging people’s heads, sending Snape down the tunnel to be attacked by a werewolf. In fact, it doesn’t matter what Mulciber tried to do. Finding humor in the suffering of others should be evil no matter who does it. Except, for Lily to criticize James and Sirius would be to criticize herself as well because, as we learned in Snape’s Worst Memory, Lily actually does find James and Sirius’s antics amusing!

Young Sev, for all his flaws, is at least honest about who he is. Why does he like hanging out with Mulciber? Because he makes him laugh! No excuses. And why does Lily like hanging out with the Marauders? Because they make her laugh. Except that she also knows James is a toerag, and suspects that something is up with Lupin (she can add 1+1 as well as Sev), but she’s too stubborn to admit it. There is something very soft and squishy about Lily’s moral compass--or perhaps it is broken--as it only points away from herself. And what makes it all so easy for her is that “everyone knows” Slytherins are bad, Gryffindors are good.

There is also something about this exchange that makes it very hard for me to believe that Sev and Lily were truly best friends at this point. Was it so common for Sev to go exploring down tunnels that Lily has no curiosity as to why he went down it, or what happened to him down there? Sev was there, not Lily. But instead of being interested and listening to him, she “cuts across him”. She gets angry when his version doesn’t square with what the Gryffindors have told her. She’d rather believe a toerag.

Sev’s suggestion that Lily could actually be made a fool by James Potter raises her fury the most of all. It is obvious here that Sev has had plenty of experience with Lily’s temper. He’s as conditioned to react to it as to James Potter’s voice. She doesn’t need Sev to tell her James is a toerag, she says. It seems to me that Lily doesn’t want anyone telling her she might be wrong about anything.

Well none of that indicates self-righteousness or know-it-all arrogance. It merely shows that she didn't care to hear Snape bad-mouthing others, probably because she had heard it all before.

As long as we’re asking for canon, I have to ask where there is canon evidence that young Snape typically bad-mouthed others to Lily? It is Lily bad-mouthing Snape’s housemates that begins the argument. And we learn in the memory outside of Gryffindor common room that Lily has been “making excuses” for years, obviously in response to Gryffindor friends bad mouthing Snape. To me that sounds like more evidence for Gryffindor bad-mouthing than Snape bad-mouthing…

Back to canon:
Snape’s Worst Memory has been much analyzed, but I will only make note of a couple of pertinent things. Lily comes to Sev’s rescue, and tries to get James to leave him alone, but her behavior is very odd for a friend. There is no concern during the entire incident for how Sev is! She never actually addresses Sev directly except after he insults her, and then she goes for the juggler vein in her response, knowing just where it will hurt. This is just as she did back when Petunia insulted her at the train station as a child. There’s that spite again. Her behavior caused many fans to conclude, prior to DH, that Lily and Sev could not have been acquainted. She never even speaks directly to Sirius. Just to James.

We never really learn why exactly Snape lashed out at Lily. “I don’t need help fro a filthy Mudblood like her” didn’t just “slip out” as Lily later characterized, but was very deliberately said in Sev’s “humiliation and fury”. I wonder if it was because Sev saw her “rescue” as very much like when James “saved” him from Lupin. Not so much out of heroism, but to serve her own interests.

Lily’s behavior in the last memory outside the Gryffindor common room also strikes me odd and in some ways disturbing. It is all about the Mudblood remark. No comment about the horrific experience Snape endured. She’s not glad to see he’s not in the hospital wing or St. Mungo’s, or dead. She’s not even mad that he used Dark Magic and sliced James’s face. Just that he called her a Mudblood.

We learn that this wasn’t the first time he ever used the term in her presence. And she never laid down the law before--? Just when he used it against her? There’s that soft squishy moral compass again.

She says she’s been “making excuses for him for years”. But why was it her place to make “excuses” for him? How arrogant to place herself so above him! I don’t believe a strong, willful personality like Lily was best friends with Sev for seven years out of pity or charity. She found some type of personal gratification in the friendship. But like her unadmittable feelings about the Marauders, she couldn’t just own up to it and tell her friends to shove off. Lily may often be brave, but she crumbled under the Gryffindor peer pressure in this instance.

Lastly, “Save your breath” epitomizes what is most disturbing to me about Lily. She doesn’t listen to Sev. Looking at this and the Mulciber memory, I doubt she has listened to him for years. She finishes his sentences for him and never gives him a chance to respond. She says he doesn’t deny that he and his friends all want to be Death Eaters, but how can he deny it? She doesn’t shut up long enough to let him speak!

How does she know that Snape and his friends all want to be Death Eaters? The way she brings it up indicates Lily and Sev have not discussed the subject before. It is likely this is what the Gryffindors have assumed to be the case and she has picked up on the accusation. Sev opens his mouth but closes it again. Why should he respond? She already “knows” his thoughts, his goals, his motivations. Or thinks she does. Is Lily a Legilimens? Not that JKR has told us. But of course, if Lily speaks it, it must be true, for Lily is never wrong.

Yes, Snape did at some point become a Death Eater, along with his friends, something he later deeply regretted. But there are such things as self-fulfilling prophecies.

This memory was very telling for me because my husband and I have been trying to improve communication between us. It can be the hardest thing to just listen to another person. My husband has been known to turn around and walk out of the room if I interrupt him or try to finish his sentences for him, and I'm often having to point out to him that he is making assumptions about what I'm thinking or feeling instead of actually asking me and listening to my answer. I have a friend who almost "assumed" her way out of her salvageable marriage. Assuming is a horrible obstacle to communication; it destroys relationships. And it is very arrogant IMO, to assume that you know the heart and mind of another human being without actually listening to them.

Lily is at her coldest in this last memory. She is without forgiveness, without pity, contemptuous, without even patience for Sev’s difficulty with speech. Does Lily understand what she is doing as she sends Sev off to become a Death Eater? Does it even cross her mind the h*ll she’s sending him to? Or does she only care that she has been affronted? This is the evil of self-righteousness, of judgment without compassion, without mercy, without a heart. Dumbledore understood there were things worse than death, that trying to protect a soul was far more important than protecting one’s pride. But that never occurs to Lily, because Lily is all about Lily.

Don’t get me wrong, Lily can be kind, she can be loyal and brave. I understand that she was young and immature. And Sev was making a number of very bad choices. But I believe that it is a BIG mistake to see Lily as an innocent, long-suffering bystander in the destruction of this friendship.

Yes, I do see Lily as “coldly self-righteous and an arrogant know-it-all”, and I came to this assessment over some time and after really looking at how she relates to the people in the memories as a whole and not just what I “expected to see”.

When was it ever stated by Jo that James had "dishonest charms"? I agree that trusting Peter was a mistake, but they didn't know any better - to James, his friends were just as trustworthy as Dumbledore, and so it would be like imagining Dumbledore betraying them. As for Lily having "foolishly entrusted" her own and Harry's safety to James, I don't see where the mistake was. He died to give them enough time to escape... how is that untrustworthy?

I hesitate to talk much about James, since he is really Off Topic. But I’ll respond as briefly as possible. “Dishonest charms” is of course my own term for what I see in the canon. In my experience I’ve run into a number of charmers like James who have not been entirely honest about who they were. James is not honest with Lily about what occurred in the Tunnel Incident, as Silver Ink Pot has well-outlined. We know that in their 7th year James is still hexing Snape without Lily’s knowledge. The letter to Sirius says that James can’t go out because he doesn’t have his Invisibility Cloak, but no mention that he could go out as Prongs if he wanted to. Makes one wonder if James ever told Lily about their animagus forms or their little jaunts endangering the countryside with a werewolf, or what really happened down the tunnel. It is very possible that Lily never knew. It is very possible that Lily naively married a man whose true character she never fully knew. If indeed she did know and didn’t care, then it doesn’t speak well of Lily’s judgment.

James was untrustworthy, IMO, because he did keep secrets and lied, and he was such a reckless individual. Sirius tells Harry that it was the danger that made things fun for James. That’s fine to be an adrenaline-junkie when you are single and only risking your own life, but totally irresponsible when you are betting the lives of others, particularly a wife and helpless child. To any rational person, the half-baked scheme to make Wormtail the Secret Keeper was idiotic, and if they had counseled with Dumbledore about it, I’m sure he would have told them so. Even if Peter hadn’t been a traitor, how long would it take for the Dark Lord to make it to him by a process of elimination? Or as a way to get at Sirius? And they knew there was a spy somewhere close to them… Nevertheless, the plan must have been appealing to James and Sirius by virtue of its danger, as well as to their vanity in that they thought they were so clever in out-witting Voldemort. Of course, James was the one who was fooled, and so was Lily, and they paid for their foolishness with their lives.

In my opinion, Snape was really just voicing his fears, not warning her. He didn't want her to be made a fool of by being with James, but that was never the case when she was with him, as we've seen - they were perfectly happy. Snape hated James, it was normal for him to say that kind of thing to her, but his word was not fact; it was up to Lily to make her own mind up about James, and she did, and I'm sure she was happy with that decision.

Sev’s fears were based on knowledge, knowledge of James that Lily did not have and that Sev was trying to share with her.

This is an interesting question whether Lily and James had a “perfectly happy”, though tragically and “romantically” brief, marriage. I found the silence regarding post-Hogwarts Lily and James truly deafening. All we have is the thank you letter from Lily to Sirius while they are in hiding. Of course, a letter to her husband’s best bud is not the place a wife would express any frustrations. So the lack of data leaves us open to “see what we expect to see”.

Could two pampered, spoiled, self-centered individuals (as per JKR & canon & my interpretation of canon) find happiness in a closed, confined situation? I have my doubts, realistically speaking. Was Lily disappointed to discover that James, like Lupin, would rather be out having adventures than staying home with herself and Harry? Or was James climbing the walls to get out of the house because Lily treated him just as poorly as she treated Snape? (see my comments above) Of course, James had seven years as entertainment director for Sirius the prima dona, so perhaps he was well-trained for the job. ;)

Your question really has made me reconsider whether the break up with Lily was such a bad deal for Sev. Perhaps she did him a favor. (As my husband would say, “Ol’ Snape dodged the bullet that time!”) True, Sev ended up in life-long servitude to the egotistical and murderous Dark Lord, but then James entered into the life-long service of the hot-tempered She-Who-Is-Never-Wrong. Perhaps there is some justice in the series after all… :p

The Black Adder, I can see where you're going with this. I was reading an analysis on Lily's character and it also pointed some of the same points you did. Lily was a kind and compassionate girl as I'm sure many of us can agree to. The fact that she was beautiful and quite popular at Hogwarts as JKR has said, and the fact she might have been close to the favorite in the family, (not to mention also the baby), it's very easy for someone of this upbringing to end up a lil spoiled (just take a look at Draco :p).

I do have some disagreements though.


When Sev’s involuntary magic causes the branch to break off and hit Petunia, her condemnation of Sev is reminiscent of the Dursley’s against Harry when he causes his aunt to blow up like a balloon.

“Did you make that happen?…You did! You did! You hurt her!”

We know that in both cases neither of the young wizards had control over what they did, and yet Lily immediately blames Sev and holds him responsible for hurting Petunia.
Lily is happy to see her sister when she first appears on the scene. Snape is the one who gets mad and starts yelling. Yes, neither have control over their magic, but I don't think Lily ever thought about wanting to harm her sister in any way. Again, Snape is the only one who doesn't want Petunia to be there, so obviously who else would it be to cut the branch when Petunia retorts back?

At the train station, Lily sounds sweet and kind at first in trying to console Petunia, reassuring her that she will “persuade Dumbledore” to change his mind. But then when Petunia lashes out at her, oh boy! The clever sister makes sure her parents aren’t watching, because Lily knows they would not be happy with what she’s about to do. Then she goes for the throat, telling her older sister she knows Petunia would really like to be going to Hogwarts herself and had begged the headmaster to let her in. Lily’s voice is “low and fierce.” This is intended to hurt her sister back.
Lily is clearly upset, because this is right after Petunia gets done calling her a freak and implying that Lily no longer belongs with the "normal" people, which includes herself and the rest of the family. Honestly, I found Petunia's remarks even more cruel. Lily is proven to be a strong girl through out the series. I can't see Lily taking that kind of bull from anyone, especially when Petunia had wanted to go to Hogwarts herself.


There is also something about this exchange that makes it very hard for me to believe that Sev and Lily were truly best friends at this point. Was it so common for Sev to go exploring down tunnels that Lily has no curiosity as to why he went down it, or what happened to him down there? Sev was there, not Lily. But instead of being interested and listening to him, she “cuts across him”. She gets angry when his version doesn’t square with what the Gryffindors have told her. She’d rather believe a toerag.

Sev’s suggestion that Lily could actually be made a fool by James Potter raises her fury the most of all. It is obvious here that Sev has had plenty of experience with Lily’s temper. He’s as conditioned to react to it as to James Potter’s voice. She doesn’t need Sev to tell her James is a toerag, she says. It seems to me that Lily doesn’t want anyone telling her she might be wrong about anything.
I took this scene as saying that their friendship was growing apart already, but being best friends, they were still hanging on to each other as any relationship trying to work things out. Snape was already into the Dark Arts and was getting in really close with the likes of Mulciber and Avery. Since this was her best friend and knowing him for a long time already, I took the Dark Arts facination and Lily drifting away as a slow process that was happening over the years. Besides, Lily's the one who confronts him in saying that his gang and their use of Dark Magic is bad. Snape is the one who brings up the Mauraders trying to sway the arguement. Lily already knows James is a toerag, but that wasn't what their arguement was originally about.

Snape’s Worst Memory has been much analyzed, but I will only make note of a couple of pertinent things. Lily comes to Sev’s rescue, and tries to get James to leave him alone, but her behavior is very odd for a friend. There is no concern during the entire incident for how Sev is! She never actually addresses Sev directly except after he insults her, and then she goes for the juggler vein in her response, knowing just where it will hurt. This is just as she did back when Petunia insulted her at the train station as a child. There’s that spite again. Her behavior caused many fans to conclude, prior to DH, that Lily and Sev could not have been acquainted. She never even speaks directly to Sirius. Just to James.
Like I said, their friendship was already falling apart. And I still wonder that even before the mudblood remark, their friendship was on the brink at this point. And as JKR implied before, Lily did have some feelings for James, so maybe the arguing was partly the "Lily and James mating dance".

We never really learn why exactly Snape lashed out at Lily. “I don’t need help fro a filthy Mudblood like her” didn’t just “slip out” as Lily later characterized, but was very deliberately said in Sev’s “humiliation and fury”. I wonder if it was because Sev saw her “rescue” as very much like when James “saved” him from Lupin. Not so much out of heroism, but to serve her own interests.
I have no doubt that Snape was humilated for being rescued by Lily. But out of all the insults he could have given her, it had to be the one used to outcast people of her birthright. One that the deatheaters used to justify their pureblood mania. There's no excuse for that. As I said, I think at this point their friendship was falling apart. Lily had seen slowly what Snape was becoming, and the fact that he lashed out at her in that way I think was what made her realize there's no use to try anymore.
We learn that this wasn’t the first time he ever used the term in her presence. And she never laid down the law before--? Just when he used it against her? There’s that soft squishy moral compass again.
Actually, we don't know if he ever used it in front her. We dont' even know how she knew about him using the term before. Maybe she heard rumors, maybe she knew his mates said it, so there's no reason why he wouldn't agree with them if he's allowing himself to hang with that kind of lot. I can't see any canon evidence for that.

How does she know that Snape and his friends all want to be Death Eaters? The way she brings it up indicates Lily and Sev have not discussed the subject before. It is likely this is what the Gryffindors have assumed to be the case and she has picked up on the accusation. Sev opens his mouth but closes it again. Why should he respond? She already “knows” his thoughts, his goals, his motivations. Or thinks she does. Is Lily a Legilimens? Not that JKR has told us. But of course, if Lily speaks it, it must be true, for Lily is never wrong.
Again, we dont' know how she finds out. My problem with the memories that we're shown is there's still a lot we don't know. The interractions between her and Snape are only flashes of the relationship, not enough to define 5 years of friendship. Maybe they did talk about it, and maybe she did warn him, but Snape didn't listen. Just like the memory when Lily tells him Mulciber is creepy and that using Dark Magic was evil, but doesn't listen to her then either.

Lily is at her coldest in this last memory. She is without forgiveness, without pity, contemptuous, without even patience for Sev’s difficulty with speech. Does Lily understand what she is doing as she sends Sev off to become a Death Eater? Does it even cross her mind the h*ll she’s sending him to? Or does she only care that she has been affronted? This is the evil of self-righteousness, of judgment without compassion, without mercy, without a heart. Dumbledore understood there were things worse than death, that trying to protect a soul was far more important than protecting one’s pride. But that never occurs to Lily, because Lily is all about Lily.
I don't think the responsibility of "sending" Snape anywhere should be on Lily. Snape chose that himself. What she doesn't know, at least to me it seems, is how Snape felt about her. As JKR said, Snape was so blinded by his facination with the Dark Arts, he actually thought it would impress Lily. I think if Lily had known any of this, she might have tried a different tactic in saving her friend from his own destruction.

Every one of these characters in the story is fully human. There's no doubt that Lily had her own faults, and I can't see her as being selfish with her own pride as you describe. Yes she was stubborn, but I feel that's what part of what made her such a strong girl that didn't take bull from anyone. If she really is compassionate and caring as you agree, I have no doubt that she tried her best with dealing with Snape and his downward spiral. And the same could go with how she tries to comfort Petunia in saying she'll ask Dumbledore if she could join the school as well. Lily really is a fighter. Will do whatever she can to the best of her ability for what thinks is right. I think she really did do that for Snape if she stayed with him, despite everything that was going on, for that long of a time.

I didn't quote it, but I think you mentioned in your post that assumptions and misscommunication isn't good for a relationship, and I agree completely! There were a good chunk of things that weren't heard or understood between Snape and Lily. Snape didn't listen to her when she warned him about his friends and the Dark Arts, and Lily never knew how Snape felt. This is part of why I adore this ship and why I feel so bad for it. So much more and better things could have happend between them, if the right things have been said and known. I can't see Lily standing by and doing nothing if she knew a lot of what Snape wanted was to try and impress her. I'm sure she would have put her foot down in a different way to make him see things straight. I take the quote of JKR saying that Lily could have loved him romantically(she did love him as a friend) had he made different choices in hoping that the two of them could have ended up together, but it also tells me that Lily cared for Snape a great deal. I think she really did try her best in saving their friendship.

Why did Lily feel compelled to defend them at all? Why not condemn ALL hexing pranks and pranksters? It is significant that JKR does not specify what Mulciber was trying to do to Mary Macdonald so that readers cannot objectively evaluate his actions. All we have is Lily’s pronouncement. She says it was evil. She declares it was Dark Magic. Lily is both judge and jury. Case closed. But we do know what kinds of things James and Sirius find funny--“hexing people because he can”, enlarging people’s heads, sending Snape down the tunnel to be attacked by a werewolf. In fact, it doesn’t matter what Mulciber tried to do. Finding humor in the suffering of others should be evil no matter who does it. Except, for Lily to criticize James and Sirius would be to criticize herself as well because, as we learned in Snape’s Worst Memory, Lily actually does find James and Sirius’s antics amusing!

Well I think Lily's judgement on what Mulciber and Avery did was right. Mary was in her house, wasn't she? So if Lily did find out from Mary what they did to her, I think she would be able to tell if it was Dark Magic. But that's just my opinion.

And what James and Sirius did were not considered Dark Magic. There's a difference between regular hexing and going too far, I think. And also, according to canon James never told Snape to go down the tunnel. The only part James played was saving Snape.

And I disagree that what Mulciber and Avery did are just as evil as what James and Sirius did. Dark Magic is the kind of stuff Voldemort did. Dark Magic is stuff like Sectumsempra and the Unforgivables. According to canon, James hated the Dark Arts. The kind of hexing he did weren't Dark - it was stuff like hanging someone upside down. I'm not trying to make James seem like a saint because he wasn't, but I don't get how Mulciber and Avery's antics are equal to James and Sirius's. Of course Lily could tell which was worse.

I don't think Lily defended James because she saw what he was doing was right, I think it's because she knew what Mulciber and Avery were doing a lot worse. Just my interpretation, of course. :)

And why does Lily like hanging out with the Marauders? Because they make her laugh. Except that she also knows James is a toerag, and suspects that something is up with Lupin (she can add 1+1 as well as Sev), but she’s too stubborn to admit it. There is something very soft and squishy about Lily’s moral compass--or perhaps it is broken--as it only points away from herself. And what makes it all so easy for her is that “everyone knows” Slytherins are bad, Gryffindors are good.

There is also something about this exchange that makes it very hard for me to believe that Sev and Lily were truly best friends at this point. Was it so common for Sev to go exploring down tunnels that Lily has no curiosity as to why he went down it, or what happened to him down there? Sev was there, not Lily. But instead of being interested and listening to him, she “cuts across him”. She gets angry when his version doesn’t square with what the Gryffindors have told her. She’d rather believe a toerag.


Um, where does it say that she hung out with the Marauders at the time? I know she did later on, but during her fifth year...?

Even if Lily did suspect Remus being a werewolf, how does that show a bad side of her personality? What Remus had to go through was none of her business anyway, really. He was far away from her when he was a fully grown werewolf, so I don't think she should've been concerned about it.

I would talk a bit about Lily and James's relationship, but this isn't really the place to discuss it.

Anyway, I do agree that Lily was a bit stubborn and hotheaded. But I don't see how some of her actions - such as breaking off the relationship with Snape - were entirely wrong.

Lily in relationships as a child

When we first see Lily she is blithely and willfully utilizing her magic even though her mother and her older sister told her not to.

When Sev tells her she is a witch, she joins her sister with “her nose in the air”, and they are “united in disapproval.”

Talking to Sev on the riverbank, Lily shows a moment of kindness in asking about his homelife, but Lily is not a budding social worker. She is clearly there to hear about the magical world.

All these things strike me as entirely normal behaviour for a little girl. I've never known a kid who was not quick to judge things, or ridiculously curious about things like magic (we've all at some point believe in magical things, I think!).

When Sev’s involuntary magic causes the branch to break off and hit Petunia, her condemnation of Sev is reminiscent of the Dursley’s against Harry when he causes his aunt to blow up like a balloon.

“Did you make that happen?…You did! You did! You hurt her!”

We know that in both cases neither of the young wizards had control over what they did, and yet Lily immediately blames Sev and holds him responsible for hurting Petunia.

Lily could already control her magic by this point. She made the flower open and close at her will, and she used her magic to slow her fall from the swing, laughing as she did it. She must have assumed that all witches and wizards could control their magic like this, and so she therefore saw the tree branch falling on Petunia as deliberate.

At the train station, Lily sounds sweet and kind at first in trying to console Petunia, reassuring her that she will “persuade Dumbledore” to change his mind. But then when Petunia lashes out at her, oh boy! The clever sister makes sure her parents aren’t watching, because Lily knows they would not be happy with what she’s about to do. Then she goes for the throat, telling her older sister she knows Petunia would really like to be going to Hogwarts herself and had begged the headmaster to let her in. Lily’s voice is “low and fierce.” This is intended to hurt her sister back.

Petunia had just called Lily a freak. That would hurt any eleven year-old girl who really loved the person saying it. She jumped onto the defensive, which is, again, very common for a young girl.

Then when Petunia calls her on her invasion of her privacy, Lily can’t just admit that she was curious herself about the letter, but blames it all on Sev! If she thought “sneaking a look” was such a terrible thing to do, then why did she read the letter?!!

On the train, Lily doesn’t want to talk to Sev (throws him a look of “deep dislike”) because Tuney’s mad at her about the letter. But it was Lily who spitefully told Petunia she had seen it so that she could get back at her!

A few moments later, however, it is James and Sirius she dislikes and leads Sev out with a “lofty voice”.

Again, this is something I see as entirely normal and expected of a young child. They evade being guilty, especially when they are hurt themselves. She blamed Snape for her sister's new-found hatred, which is a nromal connection to make. But she was still, grudingly, friends with Snape. When I was that age, for one, little disputes like these seemed the end of the world, and then ten minutes later I'd be happily chatting away with them again.

My conclusions to this point: Lily is the younger sister and likely quite pampered and adored. According to Petunia in PS/SS, their parents were delighted to have a witch in the family. Lily comes across to me as a little spoiled. (I say this as a pampered youngest child who fully understands what it means to be spoiled!)

I personally believe that, even though she was pampered like many youngest children, she behaved just as normally as most young girls would have. I don't think most young girls grow up to be arrogant know-it-alls, either, so I don't believe her behaviour as a child showed this in her overall character as a young woman.

Teenage Lily in relationships

In the 4th year memory, the first after the gap in time, Snape learns that Lily does not like the Slytherin guys that he has been hanging around with. In his own defense, Sev then points out that Lily’s Gryffindor housemates, James Potter and his friends are no better in their activities. But Lily doesn’t want to hear the uncomfortable truth about her own housemates anymore than does Sev. Her tone turns “cold”. She justifies the Marauders’s actions with “They don’t use Dark Magic though,” as though that makes it all right what they do use. By defending James and Sirius, Lily loses whatever moral authority she might have had in lecturing or warning Sev.

I think Lily was around James and Sirius enough to know that no, their behaviour definitely wasn't on the same level as Snape's friends'. After four years of being house mates, class mates, and just general school mates in the same year, I'm sure Lily knew them much better than Snape did. So I'd say Snape was the one who didn't want to hear the truth that they weren't bad like he was trying to make them out to be, and that's why Lily's voice turned cold: she might not have thought them the kindest, sweetest people on the planet, but she knew who they were and knew they wouldn't use Dark Magic.

Why did Lily feel compelled to defend them at all? Why not condemn ALL hexing pranks and pranksters? It is significant that JKR does not specify what Mulciber was trying to do to Mary Macdonald so that readers cannot objectively evaluate his actions. All we have is Lily’s pronouncement. She says it was evil. She declares it was Dark Magic. Lily is both judge and jury. Case closed. But we do know what kinds of things James and Sirius find funny--“hexing people because he can”, enlarging people’s heads, sending Snape down the tunnel to be attacked by a werewolf. In fact, it doesn’t matter what Mulciber tried to do. Finding humor in the suffering of others should be evil no matter who does it. Except, for Lily to criticize James and Sirius would be to criticize herself as well because, as we learned in Snape’s Worst Memory, Lily actually does find James and Sirius’s antics amusing!

Lily was very intelligent, I'm sure she knew what Dark Magic was like. Knowing who Mulciber turned out to be - a Death Eater - I don't think there's any doubt that he had been using Dark Magic. We know Snape liked Dark Magic, himself, so of course he'd pass it off as a laugh, cause he wouldn't see it as bad. But from any outsider, it would seem terrible.

I don't think either James or Sirius found the Shrieking Shack incident funny - Sirius might have, at first, considering he alone was the one to plan it, but I doubt he thought much about the results of his actions, which I doubt he would have found funny (he knew Remus well enough to know the pains of being a werewolf, so I doubt he'd have wished it on someone else). We do know that James never found it funny, though.

As for hexing Snape in SWM, I don't think they saw it as suffering. As Remus put it, there was a time that no one in Hogwarts could walk around the halls without being hung by their ankles. It was definitely not only James and Sirius's work. I took this as meaning this situation was all too common, which is why people found it funny in the first place. Not only Lily, James, and Sirius found it funny - the majority of the crowd laughed, too. If they all found it funny, does that mean that they all found suffering funny? I don't think so. So I wouldn't place that kind of humour on the same scale as Mulciber and Snape's humour.

Young Sev, for all his flaws, is at least honest about who he is. Why does he like hanging out with Mulciber? Because he makes him laugh! No excuses. And why does Lily like hanging out with the Marauders? Because they make her laugh. Except that she also knows James is a toerag, and suspects that something is up with Lupin (she can add 1+1 as well as Sev), but she’s too stubborn to admit it. There is something very soft and squishy about Lily’s moral compass--or perhaps it is broken--as it only points away from herself. And what makes it all so easy for her is that “everyone knows” Slytherins are bad, Gryffindors are good.

Being honest about finding Dark Magic used on innocent students funny isn't such a great trait, in my opinion. I don't think Snape merely hung around Mulciber cause he found him funny. We know they both had interests in becoming Death Eaters, and they both loved the Dark Arts. I could see that aiding in their "friendship". And I doubt Lily ever thought "all Slytherins are bad, all Gryffindors are good", considering she spent years being friends with a Slytherin, and oppenly criticized some Gryffindors (marauders). Calling James a toerag always made me feel it was her way of trying to convince herself not to like him, but she failed in that respect - I've seen too many of my friends call a guy an idiot, when I knew they really liked them. As for Remus, she knew there was something more behind him, but it wasn't any of her business so she didn't bother to find out more.


There is also something about this exchange that makes it very hard for me to believe that Sev and Lily were truly best friends at this point. Was it so common for Sev to go exploring down tunnels that Lily has no curiosity as to why he went down it, or what happened to him down there? Sev was there, not Lily. But instead of being interested and listening to him, she “cuts across him”. She gets angry when his version doesn’t square with what the Gryffindors have told her. She’d rather believe a toerag.

Sev’s suggestion that Lily could actually be made a fool by James Potter raises her fury the most of all. It is obvious here that Sev has had plenty of experience with Lily’s temper. He’s as conditioned to react to it as to James Potter’s voice. She doesn’t need Sev to tell her James is a toerag, she says. It seems to me that Lily doesn’t want anyone telling her she might be wrong about anything.

I don't think canon ever shows that Snape was right in any way in this respect. As I said earlier, Lily would have known James much better than Snape. Snape only saw the bad in James, and that's a fact we hear throughout the series actually (him only seeing the bad side of Harry, which he connects with James, when Harry also has some of James's good traits, which Snape conveniently ignores). Snape's view of James is very skewed by hatred and jealousy. Lily, on the other hand, never approved of James's overall behaviour as an arrogant school boy, but she saw his good side, and saw all of his character. I personally find her opinion of James much more valuable than Snape's.

But I agree that Snape and Lily didn't seem so close by this point. I don't really wonder why, though. We know Snape was calling other Muggleborns 'Mudbloods', he was furthering his interests int he Dark Arts (making up hiw own curses, too), and aiming to become a Death Eater. Lily would have been repulsed by those things, while still clinging to the hope that he'd still be the childhood friend she knew him as. I don't see any of her actions as wrongly self-righteous or arrogant at all. She was completely right in how she felt, in my opinion.

As long as we’re asking for canon, I have to ask where there is canon evidence that young Snape typically bad-mouthed others to Lily? It is Lily bad-mouthing Snape’s housemates that begins the argument. And we learn in the memory outside of Gryffindor common room that Lily has been “making excuses” for years, obviously in response to Gryffindor friends bad mouthing Snape. To me that sounds like more evidence for Gryffindor bad-mouthing than Snape bad-mouthing…

I think her "I know your theory" in a cold tone stated that Snape constantly tried to dig dirt on Remus. She also says that Snape was "obsessed" with the Marauders, meaning he talked about them a lot, but I doubt it was ever in a positive way. That's where we find him bad mouthing people a lot.

Back to canon:
Snape’s Worst Memory has been much analyzed, but I will only make note of a couple of pertinent things. Lily comes to Sev’s rescue, and tries to get James to leave him alone, but her behavior is very odd for a friend. There is no concern during the entire incident for how Sev is! She never actually addresses Sev directly except after he insults her, and then she goes for the juggler vein in her response, knowing just where it will hurt. This is just as she did back when Petunia insulted her at the train station as a child. There’s that spite again. Her behavior caused many fans to conclude, prior to DH, that Lily and Sev could not have been acquainted. She never even speaks directly to Sirius. Just to James.

Can you really blame Lily for talking back at Snape? She wasn't the kind of person to take things lying down, and her childhood friend, who she'd been defending for years, threw all her help back into her face with one word, which was more or less a wake up call. In her fury, she insulted him, which most anyone will do. Harry insulted Ron when he was being stupid in GoF and in DH, for not believing Harry! Harry actually physically hurts Ron by throwing that badge at his face. Does he ever come across as an arrogant know-it-all, or something of the like? No, he was just really, really angry and hurt, much like Lily was.

As for only talkint to James and not Sirius, I think that's just another way of showing she did already like James by this point, but I don't really see the connection to Snape here.

We never really learn why exactly Snape lashed out at Lily. “I don’t need help fro a filthy Mudblood like her” didn’t just “slip out” as Lily later characterized, but was very deliberately said in Sev’s “humiliation and fury”. I wonder if it was because Sev saw her “rescue” as very much like when James “saved” him from Lupin. Not so much out of heroism, but to serve her own interests.

I think his comment did just slip out out of fury, because I believe he saw Lily as the exception to the rule, as opposed to the proof that the rule was wrong. But it did come out, and I don't think it was because he thought her defending him was selfish. I think it slipped out because, like I've said earlier, one will say hurtful things to friends when very angry.

Lily’s behavior in the last memory outside the Gryffindor common room also strikes me odd and in some ways disturbing. It is all about the Mudblood remark. No comment about the horrific experience Snape endured. She’s not glad to see he’s not in the hospital wing or St. Mungo’s, or dead. She’s not even mad that he used Dark Magic and sliced James’s face. Just that he called her a Mudblood.

We learn that this wasn’t the first time he ever used the term in her presence. And she never laid down the law before--? Just when he used it against her? There’s that soft squishy moral compass again.

I personally feel she saw it as a case of "he's just using the term because his friends do, but he knows it's not right because he doesn't use it against me". So I believe she had hope left for him. But his using it against her was a slap in the face. No, he did not see it as a wrong term to use, and no, he wasn't just using it because his friends were. The term wasn't just an attack on Lily, it showed her who he really had become, and she felt disgusted.

She says she’s been “making excuses for him for years”. But why was it her place to make “excuses” for him? How arrogant to place herself so above him! I don’t believe a strong, willful personality like Lily was best friends with Sev for seven years out of pity or charity. She found some type of personal gratification in the friendship. But like her unadmittable feelings about the Marauders, she couldn’t just own up to it and tell her friends to shove off. Lily may often be brave, but she crumbled under the Gryffindor peer pressure in this instance.

So you're saying Lily should have just let her friends rant on about Snape so that she wouldn't be putting herself above him? Friends defend friends, that's it. It doesn't mean one is above the other. Snape wouldn't have always been there to defend himself, so Lily put in a word for him. It doesn't make her better than him, it doesn't put her above him. It makes her a loyal friend.

Lastly, “Save your breath” epitomizes what is most disturbing to me about Lily. She doesn’t listen to Sev. Looking at this and the Mulciber memory, I doubt she has listened to him for years. She finishes his sentences for him and never gives him a chance to respond. She says he doesn’t deny that he and his friends all want to be Death Eaters, but how can he deny it? She doesn’t shut up long enough to let him speak!

I respect your opinion, but for all the years she knew him, he definitely had enough time to justify himself. His words in SWM were enough for Lily, and there was no justification to be made. Instead of it being a situation awaiting proof of him being a Death Eater-to-be, it was the proof to her. Seriously, why would anyone in her position want to even speak to Snape after that? Her whole negative perception of him had just been confirmed! Of course she'd be angry, she wouldn't want to hear more, because as far as she was concerned, there was nothing good for him to say, anyways.

How does she know that Snape and his friends all want to be Death Eaters? The way she brings it up indicates Lily and Sev have not discussed the subject before. It is likely this is what the Gryffindors have assumed to be the case and she has picked up on the accusation. Sev opens his mouth but closes it again. Why should he respond? She already “knows” his thoughts, his goals, his motivations. Or thinks she does. Is Lily a Legilimens? Not that JKR has told us. But of course, if Lily speaks it, it must be true, for Lily is never wrong.

Yes, Snape did at some point become a Death Eater, along with his friends, something he later deeply regretted. But there are such things as self-fulfilling prophecies.

Honestly, it was a time of war, and there was a clear line between both sides. As someone pointed out a while ago in this thread, I think it was, Mulciber and Avery were two names mentioned in Voldemort's generation, which means Snape's friends of those same names had parents in the Death Eater league. Hanging around with both of them, laughing at their antics, using Dark Magic himself - it doesn't take a genius to figure out which side he was on. She didn't need to read his mind. And Snape not answering just showed that yes, he did want to become a Death Eater, and he didn't want to voice it because she clearly disapproved of it. Lily didn't come to this conclusion before he made up his own mind - it was the other way around. He chose his way, she chose hers.

Lily is at her coldest in this last memory. She is without forgiveness, without pity, contemptuous, without even patience for Sev’s difficulty with speech. Does Lily understand what she is doing as she sends Sev off to become a Death Eater? Does it even cross her mind the h*ll she’s sending him to? Or does she only care that she has been affronted? This is the evil of self-righteousness, of judgment without compassion, without mercy, without a heart. Dumbledore understood there were things worse than death, that trying to protect a soul was far more important than protecting one’s pride. But that never occurs to Lily, because Lily is all about Lily.

Again, I respect your opinion on this matter, but I really do not see how one can expect Lily to be patient with him in this situation. She was friends with him for over five years, constantly trying to find the good in him, trying to stop him from becoming a Death Eater (she warned him about his friends, and I'm sure she tried more) but he never took her advice, he never listened to her, and he became what he became. I don't think Lily is at all to blame for this, he made his own choices, and as well all know, it's our choices that define who we are, not our abilities. Snape could have chosen the same path as Lily, but he did not. Lily recognizes this choice, and so she cuts off the friendship because it is now horribly unhealthy. Lily definitely did try to help Snape, she was probably the only good influence on his childhood life, but it seemingly came to nothing for he became a Death Eater, anyways. She wasn't protecting her pride, she was deeply hurt by all of it, and Snape was still on Voldemort's side.

I know Lily has her flaws, because I would hate to see her as a perfect person, but I don't see how she was at all to blame in the friendship.



I hesitate to talk much about James, since he is really Off Topic. But I’ll respond as briefly as possible. “Dishonest charms” is of course my own term for what I see in the canon. In my experience I’ve run into a number of charmers like James who have not been entirely honest about who they were. James is not honest with Lily about what occurred in the Tunnel Incident, as Silver Ink Pot has well-outlined. We know that in their 7th year James is still hexing Snape without Lily’s knowledge. The letter to Sirius says that James can’t go out because he doesn’t have his Invisibility Cloak, but no mention that he could go out as Prongs if he wanted to. Makes one wonder if James ever told Lily about their animagus forms or their little jaunts endangering the countryside with a werewolf, or what really happened down the tunnel. It is very possible that Lily never knew. It is very possible that Lily naively married a man whose true character she never fully knew. If indeed she did know and didn’t care, then it doesn’t speak well of Lily’s judgment.

We don't know that James ever told Lily about what happened down in the Tunnel. She could have heard it from any number of people. And even if it was him, he was being as honest as he could. It wasn't his place to go and say, "there was a werewolf down that tunnel, so I snatched Snape away at last minute". That would be betraying Remus, and he would never do that. James still hexing Snape was greatly discussed in the James thread, if you want to go back a few pages and find it. I think I got enough info from Sirius and Remus, knowing that Snape never missed a chance to hex James, and that we can't "expect him to take that lying down", which is very true. James would not take it like a door mat.

I think Lily did know about the Marauders' animagus forms, cause she adressed Sirius as Padfoot, and there's no way she never became curious about the names. I think they told her the whole story behind Remus being a werewolf, and what they did for him. I think that would be just another reason for Lily to trust all four of them so deeply.

I think it would be a bit of an insult to Jo to say Lily naively married James. Jo feels quite strongly about love, and Lily falling for "false charms" reminds me all too much of the Merope/Tom love. Jo said herself that the fake love between those two was a symbol for why Voldemort was so innept at loving; if Harry turned out to be a drastic opposite, I took it that James and Lily were definitely truly in love. I think Lily knew James extremely well, and loved him greatly. We know plenty of other characters who thought very highly of James, and those aren't only his friends. I think that says enough that James's true character was definitely good.

James was untrustworthy, IMO, because he did keep secrets and lied, and he was such a reckless individual. Sirius tells Harry that it was the danger that made things fun for James. That’s fine to be an adrenaline-junkie when you are single and only risking your own life, but totally irresponsible when you are betting the lives of others, particularly a wife and helpless child. To any rational person, the half-baked scheme to make Wormtail the Secret Keeper was idiotic, and if they had counseled with Dumbledore about it, I’m sure he would have told them so. Even if Peter hadn’t been a traitor, how long would it take for the Dark Lord to make it to him by a process of elimination? Or as a way to get at Sirius? And they knew there was a spy somewhere close to them… Nevertheless, the plan must have been appealing to James and Sirius by virtue of its danger, as well as to their vanity in that they thought they were so clever in out-witting Voldemort. Of course, James was the one who was fooled, and so was Lily, and they paid for their foolishness with their lives.

I don't think there's any canon to support the idea that James ever took risks with Lily and Harry. If Voldemort had taken out Sirius, and then Remus and realised that Peter was the secret keeper (in this situation, Peter wouldn't have been the traitor), then I'm sure Lily and James wouldn't be dense enough to still think they were safe. The reason they switched to Peter was because Sirius was too obvious. I don't think they ever found the idea of the plan being dangerous as ideal. That's really an insult to James's character; it's definitely canon that he would die for his loved ones; it makes absolutely no sense that he would gamble their lives for a bit of fun. I don't think they were ever foolish to trust a friend. Trust is essential to love, and without it, Harry wouldn't have gotten to where he did in the end. So trusting isn't a bad thing at all, and of course it sucks that their trust was put in the wrong person, but nobody knew. Hell, if they'd chosen Dumbledore as SK, would it have made them foolish if he'd been the traitor? Not at all.


Sev’s fears were based on knowledge, knowledge of James that Lily did not have and that Sev was trying to share with her.

Very biased knowledge. We know Snape never saw any good in James, and that is definitely not a good basis for accusations. Lily knew James much better than Snape did, I'm sure, being in the same house, spending vast amounts more time around him. I'd trust her opinion of him far more than Snape's.

This is an interesting question whether Lily and James had a “perfectly happy”, though tragically and “romantically” brief, marriage. I found the silence regarding post-Hogwarts Lily and James truly deafening. All we have is the thank you letter from Lily to Sirius while they are in hiding. Of course, a letter to her husband’s best bud is not the place a wife would express any frustrations. So the lack of data leaves us open to “see what we expect to see”.

What would have been the point of showing them as a happy couple in all their pictures, in that letter, and in everyone else's memories, if it were all to come to "yeah, they weren't that happy together, eh"? Jo's given us enough information about them to show that they were indeed happy together.

Could two pampered, spoiled, self-centered individuals (as per JKR & canon & my interpretation of canon) find happiness in a closed, confined situation? I have my doubts, realistically speaking. Was Lily disappointed to discover that James, like Lupin, would rather be out having adventures than staying home with herself and Harry? Or was James climbing the walls to get out of the house because Lily treated him just as poorly as she treated Snape? (see my comments above) Of course, James had seven years as entertainment director for Sirius the prima dona, so perhaps he was well-trained for the job. ;)

This will sound corny, but to quote the Beatles, 'love is all you need'. I think James was a bit irritated by being cooped up, but anyone would have been. They had each other, and they had Harry. I think they found enough happiness. If they were constantly irritated and angry, shouting at each other and being miserable, Harry's first year in the world wouldn't have been pleasant, and it would have been lacking love. I've always felt his first year as a baby was incredibly important in shaping his character, because otherwise he could have turned out just as badly as Voldemort did, considering his life with the Dursleys; therefore I conclude that the Potters were very loving and happy.

Your question really has made me reconsider whether the break up with Lily was such a bad deal for Sev. Perhaps she did him a favor. (As my husband would say, “Ol’ Snape dodged the bullet that time!”) True, Sev ended up in life-long servitude to the egotistical and murderous Dark Lord, but then James entered into the life-long service of the hot-tempered She-Who-Is-Never-Wrong. Perhaps there is some justice in the series after all… :p

Well, that's your opinion again... but honestly, Snape's life went down the drain because of his own choices, not because of Lily's.

Originally Posted by The Black Adder:
I think being in Gryffindor accentuated Lily’s cold self-righteousness and know-it-all arrogance.I appreciate those who tried to explain what I meant, although they only partially addressed what I had in mind. Let me direct you to the canon and what I see there:Thank you for replying in detail.

Lily in relationships as a child

When we first see Lily she is blithely and willfully utilizing her magic even though her mother and her older sister told her not to.
Sounds pretty normal to me. :) She was only 9 years old. And she wasn't harming anyone.When Sev tells her she is a witch, she joins her sister with “her nose in the air”, and they are “united in disapproval.”
That's because in the Muggle world, calling someone a witch is a nasty insult. Again, Lily's reaction was perfectly understandable, IMO. If a strange boy came up to you and called you names, what would you do?Talking to Sev on the riverbank, Lily shows a moment of kindness in asking about his homelife, but Lily is not a budding social worker. She is clearly there to hear about the magical world.

I actually thought from the words used, that Lily already knew a lot about Snape's home life, hence her asking him how it was going and whether his parents were still fighting. It seems to be something they'd talked about before and Lily raised the subject again out of genuine concern.When Sev’s involuntary magic causes the branch to break off and hit Petunia, her condemnation of Sev is reminiscent of the Dursley’s against Harry when he causes his aunt to blow up like a balloon.

“Did you make that happen?…You did! You did! You hurt her!”

We know that in both cases neither of the young wizards had control over what they did, and yet Lily immediately blames Sev and holds him responsible for hurting Petunia.
Well, even though it was unintentional, it was Snape's animosity that caused the branch to fall. I don't think Lily understood this kind of uncontrolled magic, perhaps because it had never happened to her (at least in a context in which she realised what was happening). The text says "but the lie did not convince Lily: after one last burning look she ran from the little thicket, off after her sister, and Snape looked miserable and confused ..." "Condemnation" is a rather strong word, since they were apparently friends again shortly afterwards. Her instinctive reaction was to respond in defence of her sister. Again, Lily champions the weak, siding with her own sister when Petunia apparently comes under attack. At the train station, Lily sounds sweet and kind at first in trying to console Petunia, reassuring her that she will “persuade Dumbledore” to change his mind. But then when Petunia lashes out at her, oh boy! The clever sister makes sure her parents aren’t watching, because Lily knows they would not be happy with what she’s about to do. Then she goes for the throat, telling her older sister she knows Petunia would really like to be going to Hogwarts herself and had begged the headmaster to let her in. Lily’s voice is “low and fierce.” This is intended to hurt her sister back.

Then when Petunia calls her on her invasion of her privacy, Lily can’t just admit that she was curious herself about the letter, but blames it all on Sev! If she thought “sneaking a look” was such a terrible thing to do, then why did she read the letter?!!

On the train, Lily doesn’t want to talk to Sev (throws him a look of “deep dislike”) because Tuney’s mad at her about the letter. But it was Lily who spitefully told Petunia she had seen it so that she could get back at her!
This seems like a very normal quarrel between two sisters, in which jealousy has reared its ugly head. As you pointed out, Lily tried to console Petunia with an offer of practical help. We've seen in other scenes that Lily has a "red-haired temper" and doesn't take insults lying down. She had tried to be kind, but Petunia responded with anger and spite, and a quarrel ensues. Siblings quarrel - even nice, charming children do it. It's normal.The young pre-Hogwarts Lily demonstrates:

Occasional moments of empathy
An inflated opinion of herself, as she assumes she’s going to have a chat with Dumbledore and tell him what’s what.
A quick, hot temper
Vicious spite
She is very judgmental
And has an inability to own up to her own feelings, desires, and faults.

It is this list of traits that I previously summarized or translated as “cold self-righteousness and know-it-all arrogance”. If you don’t recognize that description, then perhaps “occasionally kind, but self-delusional, judgmental, and spiteful” would be a better fit?
I see the offer to talk to Dumbledore on Petunia's behalf as a brave gesture. Going to see the headmaster voluntarily is not something many 11 year olds would do, even in a Muggle school where the headmaster's office is usually a little easier to find and enter! It would have been a task requiring courage and resourcefulness and Lily was willing to do this to help her sister. And I disagree about the "vicious spite". I don't see any abnormal or vicious spite in Lily's exchanges with Petunia. I still don't see "judgemental" and as for owning up to her own feelings, desires and faults - she's just a child. As the mother of a 12 year old girl, I don't see anything abnormal here. And no - "self-delusional, judgemental, and spiteful" doesn't work for me either. We'll just have to agree to differ!

As long as we’re asking for canon, I have to ask where there is canon evidence that young Snape typically bad-mouthed others to Lily? It is Lily bad-mouthing Snape’s housemates that begins the argument. And we learn in the memory outside of Gryffindor common room that Lily has been “making excuses” for years, obviously in response to Gryffindor friends bad mouthing Snape. To me that sounds like more evidence for Gryffindor bad-mouthing than Snape bad-mouthing…
I would say that Lily's reaction to Snape going on about the Marauders, showed that she'd heard his accusations many times before. "I know your theory", says Lily.
"We are, Sev, but I don't like some of the people you're hanging around with! I'm sorry, but I detest Avery and Mulciber. Mulciber! What do you see in him, Sev? He's creepy! D'you know what he tried to do to Mary McDonald the other day?
You may call this "bad-mouthing" if you wish, but to me it is a concerned friend trying to warn Snape. And if he'd listened to her, they'd both be alive today! Avery and Mulciber became vicious Death Eaters, so Lily's warning was entirely justified by later events.Your question really has made me reconsider whether the break up with Lily was such a bad deal for Sev. Perhaps she did him a favor. (As my husband would say, “Ol’ Snape dodged the bullet that time!”) True, Sev ended up in life-long servitude to the egotistical and murderous Dark Lord, but then James entered into the life-long service of the hot-tempered She-Who-Is-Never-Wrong. Perhaps there is some justice in the series after all…
I have no words to answer this, so I'll simply state that I strongly disagree.

Quote BY: LilyDreamsOn: All these things strike me as entirely normal behaviour for a little girl. I've never known a kid who was not quick to judge things, or ridiculously curious about things like magic (we've all at some point believe in magical things, I think!).

Lily could already control her magic by this point. She made the flower open and close at her will, and she used her magic to slow her fall from the swing, laughing as she did it. She must have assumed that all witches and wizards could control their magic like this, and so she therefore saw the tree branch falling on Petunia as deliberate.

Petunia had just called Lily a freak. That would hurt any eleven year-old girl who really loved the person saying it. She jumped onto the defensive, which is, again, very common for a young girl.

Again, this is something I see as entirely normal and expected of a young child. They evade being guilty, especially when they are hurt themselves. She blamed Snape for her sister's new-found hatred, which is a nromal connection to make. But she was still, grudingly, friends with Snape. When I was that age, for one, little disputes like these seemed the end of the world, and then ten minutes later I'd be happily chatting away with them again.

I personally believe that, even though she was pampered like many youngest children, she behaved just as normally as most young girls would have. I don't think most young girls grow up to be arrogant know-it-alls, either, so I don't believe her behaviour as a child showed this in her overall character as a young woman.

I think Lily was around James and Sirius enough to know that no, their behaviour definitely wasn't on the same level as Snape's friends'. After four years of being house mates, class mates, and just general school mates in the same year, I'm sure Lily knew them much better than Snape did. So I'd say Snape was the one who didn't want to hear the truth that they weren't bad like he was trying to make them out to be, and that's why Lily's voice turned cold: she might not have thought them the kindest, sweetest people on the planet, but she knew who they were and knew they wouldn't use Dark Magic.

Lily was very intelligent, I'm sure she knew what Dark Magic was like. Knowing who Mulciber turned out to be - a Death Eater - I don't think there's any doubt that he had been using Dark Magic. We know Snape liked Dark Magic, himself, so of course he'd pass it off as a laugh, cause he wouldn't see it as bad. But from any outsider, it would seem terrible.

I don't think either James or Sirius found the Shrieking Shack incident funny - Sirius might have, at first, considering he alone was the one to plan it, but I doubt he thought much about the results of his actions, which I doubt he would have found funny (he knew Remus well enough to know the pains of being a werewolf, so I doubt he'd have wished it on someone else). We do know that James never found it funny, though.

As for hexing Snape in SWM, I don't think they saw it as suffering. As Remus put it, there was a time that no one in Hogwarts could walk around the halls without being hung by their ankles. It was definitely not only James and Sirius's work. I took this as meaning this situation was all too common, which is why people found it funny in the first place. Not only Lily, James, and Sirius found it funny - the majority of the crowd laughed, too. If they all found it funny, does that mean that they all found suffering funny? I don't think so. So I wouldn't place that kind of humour on the same scale as Mulciber and Snape's humour.

Being honest about finding Dark Magic used on innocent students funny isn't such a great trait, in my opinion. I don't think Snape merely hung around Mulciber cause he found him funny. We know they both had interests in becoming Death Eaters, and they both loved the Dark Arts. I could see that aiding in their "friendship". And I doubt Lily ever thought "all Slytherins are bad, all Gryffindors are good", considering she spent years being friends with a Slytherin, and oppenly criticized some Gryffindors (marauders). Calling James a toerag always made me feel it was her way of trying to convince herself not to like him, but she failed in that respect - I've seen too many of my friends call a guy an idiot, when I knew they really liked them. As for Remus, she knew there was something more behind him, but it wasn't any of her business so she didn't bother to find out more.

I don't think canon ever shows that Snape was right in any way in this respect. As I said earlier, Lily would have known James much better than Snape. Snape only saw the bad in James, and that's a fact we hear throughout the series actually (him only seeing the bad side of Harry, which he connects with James, when Harry also has some of James's good traits, which Snape conveniently ignores). Snape's view of James is very skewed by hatred and jealousy. Lily, on the other hand, never approved of James's overall behaviour as an arrogant school boy, but she saw his good side, and saw all of his character. I personally find her opinion of James much more valuable than Snape's.

But I agree that Snape and Lily didn't seem so close by this point. I don't really wonder why, though. We know Snape was calling other Muggleborns 'Mudbloods', he was furthering his interests int he Dark Arts (making up hiw own curses, too), and aiming to become a Death Eater. Lily would have been repulsed by those things, while still clinging to the hope that he'd still be the childhood friend she knew him as. I don't see any of her actions as wrongly self-righteous or arrogant at all. She was completely right in how she felt, in my opinion.

I think her "I know your theory" in a cold tone stated that Snape constantly tried to dig dirt on Remus. She also says that Snape was "obsessed" with the Marauders, meaning he talked about them a lot, but I doubt it was ever in a positive way. That's where we find him bad mouthing people a lot.

Can you really blame Lily for talking back at Snape? She wasn't the kind of person to take things lying down, and her childhood friend, who she'd been defending for years, threw all her help back into her face with one word, which was more or less a wake up call. In her fury, she insulted him, which most anyone will do. Harry insulted Ron when he was being stupid in GoF and in DH, for not believing Harry! Harry actually physically hurts Ron by throwing that badge at his face. Does he ever come across as an arrogant know-it-all, or something of the like? No, he was just really, really angry and hurt, much like Lily was.

As for only talkint to James and not Sirius, I think that's just another way of showing she did already like James by this point, but I don't really see the connection to Snape here.

I think his comment did just slip out out of fury, because I believe he saw Lily as the exception to the rule, as opposed to the proof that the rule was wrong. But it did come out, and I don't think it was because he thought her defending him was selfish. I think it slipped out because, like I've said earlier, one will say hurtful things to friends when very angry.

I personally feel she saw it as a case of "he's just using the term because his friends do, but he knows it's not right because he doesn't use it against me". So I believe she had hope left for him. But his using it against her was a slap in the face. No, he did not see it as a wrong term to use, and no, he wasn't just using it because his friends were. The term wasn't just an attack on Lily, it showed her who he really had become, and she felt disgusted.

So you're saying Lily should have just let her friends rant on about Snape so that she wouldn't be putting herself above him? Friends defend friends, that's it. It doesn't mean one is above the other. Snape wouldn't have always been there to defend himself, so Lily put in a word for him. It doesn't make her better than him, it doesn't put her above him. It makes her a loyal friend.

I respect your opinion, but for all the years she knew him, he definitely had enough time to justify himself. His words in SWM were enough for Lily, and there was no justification to be made. Instead of it being a situation awaiting proof of him being a Death Eater-to-be, it was the proof to her. Seriously, why would anyone in her position want to even speak to Snape after that? Her whole negative perception of him had just been confirmed! Of course she'd be angry, she wouldn't want to hear more, because as far as she was concerned, there was nothing good for him to say, anyways.

Honestly, it was a time of war, and there was a clear line between both sides. As someone pointed out a while ago in this thread, I think it was, Mulciber and Avery were two names mentioned in Voldemort's generation, which means Snape's friends of those same names had parents in the Death Eater league. Hanging around with both of them, laughing at their antics, using Dark Magic himself - it doesn't take a genius to figure out which side he was on. She didn't need to read his mind. And Snape not answering just showed that yes, he did want to become a Death Eater, and he didn't want to voice it because she clearly disapproved of it. Lily didn't come to this conclusion before he made up his own mind - it was the other way around. He chose his way, she chose hers.

Again, I respect your opinion on this matter, but I really do not see how one can expect Lily to be patient with him in this situation. She was friends with him for over five years, constantly trying to find the good in him, trying to stop him from becoming a Death Eater (she warned him about his friends, and I'm sure she tried more) but he never took her advice, he never listened to her, and he became what he became. I don't think Lily is at all to blame for this, he made his own choices, and as well all know, it's our choices that define who we are, not our abilities. Snape could have chosen the same path as Lily, but he did not. Lily recognizes this choice, and so she cuts off the friendship because it is now horribly unhealthy. Lily definitely did try to help Snape, she was probably the only good influence on his childhood life, but it seemingly came to nothing for he became a Death Eater, anyways. She wasn't protecting her pride, she was deeply hurt by all of it, and Snape was still on Voldemort's side.

I know Lily has her flaws, because I would hate to see her as a perfect person, but I don't see how she was at all to blame in the friendship.

We don't know that James ever told Lily about what happened down in the Tunnel. She could have heard it from any number of people. And even if it was him, he was being as honest as he could. It wasn't his place to go and say, "there was a werewolf down that tunnel, so I snatched Snape away at last minute". That would be betraying Remus, and he would never do that. James still hexing Snape was greatly discussed in the James thread, if you want to go back a few pages and find it. I think I got enough info from Sirius and Remus, knowing that Snape never missed a chance to hex James, and that we can't "expect him to take that lying down", which is very true. James would not take it like a door mat.

I think Lily did know about the Marauders' animagus forms, cause she adressed Sirius as Padfoot, and there's no way she never became curious about the names. I think they told her the whole story behind Remus being a werewolf, and what they did for him. I think that would be just another reason for Lily to trust all four of them so deeply.

I think it would be a bit of an insult to Jo to say Lily naively married James. Jo feels quite strongly about love, and Lily falling for "false charms" reminds me all too much of the Merope/Tom love. Jo said herself that the fake love between those two was a symbol for why Voldemort was so innept at loving; if Harry turned out to be a drastic opposite, I took it that James and Lily were definitely truly in love. I think Lily knew James extremely well, and loved him greatly. We know plenty of other characters who thought very highly of James, and those aren't only his friends. I think that says enough that James's true character was definitely good.

I don't think there's any canon to support the idea that James ever took risks with Lily and Harry. If Voldemort had taken out Sirius, and then Remus and realised that Peter was the secret keeper (in this situation, Peter wouldn't have been the traitor), then I'm sure Lily and James wouldn't be dense enough to still think they were safe. The reason they switched to Peter was because Sirius was too obvious. I don't think they ever found the idea of the plan being dangerous as ideal. That's really an insult to James's character; it's definitely canon that he would die for his loved ones; it makes absolutely no sense that he would gamble their lives for a bit of fun. I don't think they were ever foolish to trust a friend. Trust is essential to love, and without it, Harry wouldn't have gotten to where he did in the end. So trusting isn't a bad thing at all, and of course it sucks that their trust was put in the wrong person, but nobody knew. Hell, if they'd chosen Dumbledore as SK, would it have made them foolish if he'd been the traitor? Not at all.

Very biased knowledge. We know Snape never saw any good in James, and that is definitely not a good basis for accusations. Lily knew James much better than Snape did, I'm sure, being in the same house, spending vast amounts more time around him. I'd trust her opinion of him far more than Snape's.

What would have been the point of showing them as a happy couple in all their pictures, in that letter, and in everyone else's memories, if it were all to come to "yeah, they weren't that happy together, eh"? Jo's given us enough information about them to show that they were indeed happy together.

This will sound corny, but to quote the Beatles, 'love is all you need'. I think James was a bit irritated by being cooped up, but anyone would have been. They had each other, and they had Harry. I think they found enough happiness. If they were constantly irritated and angry, shouting at each other and being miserable, Harry's first year in the world wouldn't have been pleasant, and it would have been lacking love. I've always felt his first year as a baby was incredibly important in shaping his character, because otherwise he could have turned out just as badly as Voldemort did, considering his life with the Dursleys; therefore I conclude that the Potters were very loving and happy.

Well, that's your opinion again... but honestly, Snape's life went down the drain because of his own choices, not because of Lily's.

I agree with this completely, it embodies the answer I would have given. Well said. :tu:

By: The Black Adder Your question really has made me reconsider whether the break up with Lily was such a bad deal for Sev. Perhaps she did him a favor. (As my husband would say, “Ol’ Snape dodged the bullet that time!”) True, Sev ended up in life-long servitude to the egotistical and murderous Dark Lord, but then James entered into the life-long service of the hot-tempered She-Who-Is-Never-Wrong. Perhaps there is some justice in the series after all…

I respect your opinion, but my impression was that Snape ended up in several years of faithful servitude to an egotistical and murderous Dark Lord (Voldemort) and then spent the rest of his life serving DD, the antithesis of Voldy. Although I agree that Snape did continue to suffer in having to deal with his obessession with the idea of being in love with Lily his entire life. James, on the other hand, imo, married the girl of his dreams and lived happily in a mutually loving relationship for several years, even while battling with her against the DEs and thrice defying Voldemort. Lily and James, in my view, were extremely content with one another until the day they were killed as a result of the mechanisms of Snape, Voldemort and Peter Pettigrew.

I realize you see this distinctly and I respect your view although it differs from mine. :)

I think Lily was around James and Sirius enough to know that no, their behaviour definitely wasn't on the same level as Snape's friends'. After four years of being house mates, class mates, and just general school mates in the same year, I'm sure Lily knew them much better than Snape did. So I'd say Snape was the one who didn't want to hear the truth that they weren't bad like he was trying to make them out to be, and that's why Lily's voice turned cold: she might not have thought them the kindest, sweetest people on the planet, but she knew who they were and knew they wouldn't use Dark Magic.

I was pleased when I first read this passage, because I thought Jo was making it clear that there is a difference between pranks and hexes, and real Dark magic, and that Lily knew it. I still think that.Well, that's your opinion again... but honestly, Snape's life went down the drain because of his own choices, not because of Lily's.
Absolutely. She tried to warn him, but he didn't want to hear. I sincerely believe that Lily's life as a Death Eater's wife would have been hell! She finally realised that she couldn't drag Snape back from the lifestyle he had chosen, and IMO Lily had no choice but to end the friendship when she did. Nobody forced Snape to get a Death Eater tattoo.

Q: Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think Snape was reluctant to approach Lily because he was afraid to mess things up and scare her away thus lose his chance of friendship with someone like him. I'm not sure if he would interest in her or not if she hadn't been magical.

Q: Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

I think Lily would have been friendly towards Snape and started a friendship with him. Their friendship would have started differently, maybe playing together rather then Snape being a teacher of all things to do with the magical world; they'd be on more equal footing at the start of the relationship.

Q: What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

I think it was Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult was just the last straw. James Potter and Sirius Black really didn't help things (Snape's jealous and insecurity)

Q: Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

He could have not become a Death Eater and Lily could have waited him out longer to see if he'd turn from the path he was on.

Q: How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

I think if Lily had forgiven Snape and he moved away from becoming a Death Eater I think they could have been a romantic relationship. JKR said that was so and I like to think it would have been. If they had tried a relationship and it didn't work and she went on to date and marry James Potter I doubt they could have kept a friendship going. But it depends how much Snape would have wanted to keep her in his life and how they ended things. I can picture them dating in school getting married and having children, living happy ever after.

I'd like to remind everyone in this thread to re-read REVISED: Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108021)

I'm seeing bashing of Lily, James and Snape in posts. Please remember that you can be removed from LS for character bashing.

When we first see Lily she is blithely and willfully utilizing her magic even though her mother and her older sister told her not to.
If you look at what Jo tells us about Lily, that she had had her share of warning letters for underage magic, defying her sister and her mother seems to fit in. She doesn't seem to have been such a stickler for rules. Her penchant for giving cheeky answers to Slughorn is also consistent with this.

When Sev tells her she is a witch, she joins her sister with “her nose in the air”, and they are “united in disapproval.”
If I were a small girl and some boy had called me a witch, I'd be offended too. Witches are shown as being inherently evil in most fairytales. Thus, why should she expect that the boy who was spying on them till then was being nice when he called her a witch?

Talking to Sev on the riverbank, Lily shows a moment of kindness in asking about his homelife, but Lily is not a budding social worker. She is clearly there to hear about the magical world.
Which is exactly what Snape intended to happen. To me, that seemd like a very tender moment. Lily's concern for Snape's family seemed genuine, and IMO, her acceptance of him must have meant a lot to Snape.

When Sev’s involuntary magic causes the branch to break off and hit Petunia, her condemnation of Sev is reminiscent of the Dursley’s against Harry when he causes his aunt to blow up like a balloon.
Petunia is Lily's sister after all, and they were quite close before. Lily wouldn't have hurt her own sister. Thus, it's clear that Snape's responsible. She didn't know much about magic even then, and she could have had no idea that it was accidental. It's also clear that she's scared, for herself as well as for Petunia. She had been warned against using magic by her mum, and now she's in trouble.

At the train station, Lily sounds sweet and kind at first in trying to console Petunia, reassuring her that she will “persuade Dumbledore” to change his mind. But then when Petunia lashes out at her, oh boy! The clever sister makes sure her parents aren’t watching, because Lily knows they would not be happy with what she’s about to do. Then she goes for the throat, telling her older sister she knows Petunia would really like to be going to Hogwarts herself and had begged the headmaster to let her in. Lily’s voice is “low and fierce.” This is intended to hurt her sister back.

Should she have stood there and taken all that abuse on stride? That is not in Lily's character. Your post seems to be making light of the fact that Petunia's behaviour was completely unreasonable, and intentionally hurtfull, driving Lily to tears. It was only then that Lily retaliated.

I really can't understand how anyone could blame Lily for that situation. Looking at that scene,Lily seemed to be pleading with her sister. Harry moved closer to listen.
“. . . I’m sorry, Tuney, I’m sorry! Listen—” She caught her sister’s hand and held tight to it, even though Petunia tried to pull it away. “Maybe once I’m there—no, listen, Tuney! Maybe once I’m there, I’ll be able to go to Professor Dumbledore and persuade him to change his mind!” We see Lily pleading with her sister, holding on desperately to her, trying to console and reassure her. It's not that Lily 'seems' kind, she is kind and understanding, right up to the point where her own sister calls her a freak. Her reaction to that is not anger. As we see from the text,“—you think I want to be a—a freak?”
Lily’s eyes filled with tears as Petunia succeeded in tugging her hand away.
“I’m not a freak,” said Lily. “That’s a horrible thing to say.”
“That’s where you’re going,” said Petunia with relish. “A special school for
freaks. You and that Snape boy. . . weirdos, that’s what you two are. It’s good
you’re being separated from normal people. It’s for our safety.”
Lily is so shocked at such bigotry from her own sister, that she lets go of Petunia's hand.

Yes, she does look around to ensure that her parents are not overhearing them, and talks to Petunia in a low voice, so as to not make a scene in public, so as to not distress her parents. Her intention is merely to let Petunia know that she's not fooling her at all.

Interestingly, Lily's behaviour reminded me of Harry's in Snape's first potions class, when he talks back at him after being repeatedly belittled in front of the whole class. In both cases, someone else was the instigator.

Then when Petunia calls her on her invasion of her privacy, Lily can’t just admit that she was curious herself about the letter, but blames it all on Sev! If she thought “sneaking a look” was such a terrible thing to do, then why did she read the letter?!!

On the train, Lily doesn’t want to talk to Sev (throws him a look of “deep dislike”) because Tuney’s mad at her about the letter. But it was Lily who spitefully told Petunia she had seen it so that she could get back at her!

From the text, I gather that it was Snape who actually goaded Lily into reading the letter. And it is also clear that she's defending Snape's actions, not 'blaming it all on Sev'.

On the train, Lily is angry with Snape because he doesn't care about the fact that her own sister hates her. Which is understandable, seeing how close they were before Snape came into the picture.

A few moments later, however, it is James and Sirius she dislikes and leads Sev out with a “lofty voice”.

I really don't see what's wrong with that. James and Sirius were being rather silly, and they'd insulted her friend.

My conclusions to this point: Lily is the younger sister and likely quite pampered and adored. According to Petunia in PS/SS, their parents were delighted to have a witch in the family. Lily comes across to me as a little spoiled. (I say this as a pampered youngest child who fully understands what it means to be spoiled!)

I really can't say whether Lily was spoiled or not, because she certainly isn't acting like it. She befriends and accepts someone from a lower class in the society, tries her best to reassure a jealous and cruel sister, stands up for herself when she's mocked and insulted, and defends her friend. The fact that Petunia hating her affects her so much tells us that she genuinely cared for her sister. I really don't understand how all of this can be taken to conclude that Lily is a pampered, spoiled kidjust because her parents were proud of her. Should they have seen and treated her like the Dursleys did Harry?

An inflated opinion of herself, as she assumes she’s going to have a chat with Dumbledore and tell him what’s what.

Expressing a hope that she might be able to see Dumbledore, that she might be able to persuade him, does not reveal an inflated opinion of herself, it merely shows that she was willing to do what it took to make her sister feel better. It is also relevant that she was 11 at the time, and new to Hogwarts. She'd also read the letter from Dumbledore, found him to be a kind man.


A quick, hot temper
Vicious spite
She is very judgmental
And has an inability to own up to her own feelings, desires, and faults.

It is this list of traits that I previously summarized or translated as “cold self-righteousness and know-it-all arrogance”. If you don’t recognize that description, then perhaps “occasionally kind, but self-delusional, judgmental, and spiteful” would be a better fit?

Completely disagree. All the text shows is that Lily didn't take insults lying down. She reacted to repeated cruel and spiteful remarks from Petunia, and even then, she took care to see that Petunia wasn't embarassed in public about it. She could just as well have shouted back at her, made fun of her wanting to go to Hogwarts, but she chose not to.

I meant that the intense and long-standing rivalry between Gryffindor and Slytherin was what affected her.

Hwyla said it perhaps a little better a little ways back:
"I think she fell for the 'all Gryffindors are 'good'' line."

Also the corollary that "Slytherins are all dark and bad." I think that over time such attitudes and prejudice coming from Lily’s housemates supported and encouraged her own inclinations to have an over-inflated ego, to be judgmental, and have a sense that she can do no wrong.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be anything in canon to back that up. We know for a fact that she befriended a Slytherin. We know that she disapproved of the company Snape kept, because all of his friends were aspiring DEs, a fact that is also confirmed by Remus and Sirius. We never see Lily judge anyone by the house they are in.

In the 4th year memory, the first after the gap in time, Snape learns that Lily does not like the Slytherin guys that he has been hanging around with. In his own defense, Sev then points out that Lily’s Gryffindor housemates, James Potter and his friends are no better in their activities.

Let's take a look at what Snape accuses James and his friends of.“What’s Potter got to do with anything?” said Lily.
“They sneak out at night. There’s something weird about that Lupin. Where
does he keep going?”
“He’s ill,” said Lily. “They say he’s ill—”
“Every month at the full moon?” said Snape.
“I know your theory,” said Lily, and she sounded cold. “Why are you so
obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what they’re doing at night?”
“I’m just trying to show you they’re not as wonderful as everyone seems to
think they are.”

Sneaking out at night, and consorting with a 'dark creature'. That's the big flaw that Snape sees in James. Avery and Mulciber were attacking a fellow student with Dark Magic. I fail to see Snape's logic here. Snape is also being hypocritical here, because he was the one who developed Dark curses.

But Lily doesn’t want to hear the uncomfortable truth about her own housemates anymore than does Sev. Her tone turns “cold”. She justifies the Marauders’s actions with “They don’t use Dark Magic though,” as though that makes it all right what they do use. By defending James and Sirius, Lily loses whatever moral authority she might have had in lecturing or warning Sev.

Yes, her tone turns cold, because what Snape is implying is that Remus Lupin is at fault, simply because he is a werewolf. I imagine that she disapproves of the bigotry that Snape is pushing. We know, from what she tells him later on, that Snape's prejudices had been a problem between them for a while.

Why did Lily feel compelled to defend them at all? Why not condemn ALL hexing pranks and pranksters? It is significant that JKR does not specify what Mulciber was trying to do to Mary Macdonald so that readers cannot objectively evaluate his actions. All we have is Lily’s pronouncement. She says it was evil. She declares it was Dark Magic. Lily is both judge and jury. Case closed.

I'd say that Lily was differentiating between the Marauders and Snape's DE friends, because they had different ideas about what was funny. Considering that Avery and Mulciber were both DEs later on, it's safe to conclude that whatever they did to Mary MacDonald could have been racially motivated. It also proves that Lily's judgement on their characters was right.

Lily doesn't put all pranksters on the same level, because that would be unfair. None of the teachers seem to think that the Marauders were bad kids. They were good kids underneath, who occasionally let things get out of hand, which is nothing like a cruel, racially motivated attack. I imagine that Lily was clever enough to see the difference.

But we do know what kinds of things James and Sirius find funny--“hexing people because he can”, enlarging people’s heads, sending Snape down the tunnel to be attacked by a werewolf. In fact, it doesn’t matter what Mulciber tried to do. Finding humor in the suffering of others should be evil no matter who does it. Except, for Lily to criticize James and Sirius would be to criticize herself as well because, as we learned in Snape’s Worst Memory, Lily actually does find James and Sirius’s antics amusing!

I'm not going to proclaim what should be evil and what should not, because then, I'd be the one being judgemental. I'd rather take a decision based on the circumstances. As far as I'm concerned, two wannabe DEs using Dark Magic to belittle a girl, possibly a muggleborn = not funny. Random people being hoisted by their ankles as they're walking along = funny.

And Yes, I imagine that Lily would find Snape's situation slightly funny, because it's rather ironic that he is being kept captive by a spell that he himself created, to humiliate others. And that image is pretty funny, if you think about it. In HBP, Dean and Seamus are both laughing when Harry uses Levicorpus on Ron.

Young Sev, for all his flaws, is at least honest about who he is. Why does he like hanging out with Mulciber? Because he makes him laugh! No excuses.

True. Snape makes no excuses. He simply switches the subject to the Marausers, and how they're not as wonderful as everyone thinks they are. Interesting how everyone else thinks they're wonderful, and a person with a grudge towards them thinks they're not. As Lily asks, what have they got to do with Avery and Mulciber using Dark Magic on Mary Macdonald?

And why does Lily like hanging out with the Marauders? Because they make her laugh.

That's unsubstantiated by canon. Please clarify when stating opinions.

Except that she also knows James is a toerag, and suspects that something is up with Lupin (she can add 1+1 as well as Sev), but she’s too stubborn to admit it. There is something very soft and squishy about Lily’s moral compass--or perhaps it is broken--as it only points away from herself.

Or, more likely, she doesn't see how being a werewolf is a crime. She's muggleborn, and thus, free of many of the prejudices that Snape is accustomed to. Hermione has a similar reaction to finding out that Remus is a werewolf. She just doesn't care, or understand how that makes James a bad person for befriending one.

And what makes it all so easy for her is that “everyone knows” Slytherins are bad, Gryffindors are good.

Again, unsubstiated by canon.

There is also something about this exchange that makes it very hard for me to believe that Sev and Lily were truly best friends at this point. Was it so common for Sev to go exploring down tunnels that Lily has no curiosity as to why he went down it, or what happened to him down there? Sev was there, not Lily. But instead of being interested and listening to him, she “cuts across him”. She gets angry when his version doesn’t square with what the Gryffindors have told her. She’d rather believe a toerag.

Perhaps, because she knows that her friend is biased against James and the Marauders?

Plus, your version of the events is different from what is shown in the text. Lily does show interest in why Snape is following them around.
“Why are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what they’re doing at night?”
***
“And you’re being really ungrateful. I heard what happened the other night. You went sneaking down that tunnel by the Whomping Willow, and James Potter saved you from whatever’s down there—”
Snape’s whole face contorted and he spluttered, “Saved? Saved? You think
he was playing the hero? He was saving his neck and his friends’ too! You’re
not going to—I won’t let you—”
“Let me? Let me?”
Lily’s bright green eyes were slits. Snape backtracked at once.
“I didn’t mean—I just don’t want to see you made a fool of—He fancies
you, James Potter fancies you!” The words seemed wrenched from him against
his will. “And he’s not. . . everyone thinks. . . big Quidditch hero—” Snape’s bitterness and dislike were rendering him incoherent, and Lily’s eyebrows were
traveling farther and farther up her forehead.
“I know James Potter’s an arrogant toerag,” she said, cutting across Snape.
“I don’t need you to tell me that. But Mulciber’s and Avery’s idea of humor is just evil. Evil, Sev. I don’t understand how you can be friends with them.” Harry doubted that Snape had even heard her strictures on Mulciber and Avery.

It's only when Snape starts sputtering incoherently that Lily cuts across him. And to me it seems, that Snape has a habit of objectifying her, and telling her what to do. We've seen that he has to backtrack on things like that on more than one occasion.

We also see her pleading to Snape one last time, about precisely why she dislikes Avery and Mulciber. Of course, Snape doesn't even care about what Lily wants.

As long as we’re asking for canon, I have to ask where there is canon evidence that young Snape typically bad-mouthed others to Lily? It is Lily bad-mouthing Snape’s housemates that begins the argument.

That would be when Snape changes the subject deftly when he's confronted about his friends using Dark Magic. He makes it out that James befriending a werewolf, and sneaking about the castle at night is as bad as Avery and Mulciber exercising their evil sense of humor on a fellow student.

And we learn in the memory outside of Gryffindor common room that Lily has been “making excuses” for years, obviously in response to Gryffindor friends bad mouthing Snape. To me that sounds like more evidence for Gryffindor bad-mouthing than Snape bad-mouthing…

Lily makes it perfectly clear why her friends can't understand why she even talks to him. It's because he's a wannabe Death Eater, because he calls everyone of muggle parentage 'Mudblood'. Considering that Snape went on to be a Death Eater, it looks as if her friends were telling the truth, and not merely badmouthing him.

Lily’s behavior in the last memory outside the Gryffindor common room also strikes me odd and in some ways disturbing. It is all about the Mudblood remark. No comment about the horrific experience Snape endured. She’s not glad to see he’s not in the hospital wing or St. Mungo’s, or dead. She’s not even mad that he used Dark Magic and sliced James’s face. Just that he called her a Mudblood.

Absolutely not. Lily makes it clear that the mudblood insult was merely the last straw. The real issue was Snape's continued association with aspiring DEs, his own ambition to join the Dark Lord, and his bigotry.

We learn that this wasn’t the first time he ever used the term in her presence. And she never laid down the law before--? Just when he used it against her? There’s that soft squishy moral compass again.

Yes, Lily is at fault for having ignored that issue for years. She is at fault for having stood by Snape loyally until she was mistreated. Ideally, she should have left him years ago.

She says she’s been “making excuses for him for years”. But why was it her place to make “excuses” for him? How arrogant to place herself so above him!

:lol: At that point, Lily is the one who was hurt and insulted.

I don’t believe a strong, willful personality like Lily was best friends with Sev for seven years out of pity or charity. She found some type of personal gratification in the friendship. But like her unadmittable feelings about the Marauders, she couldn’t just own up to it and tell her friends to shove off. Lily may often be brave, but she crumbled under the Gryffindor peer pressure in this instance.

I'm sorry, but Lily crumbled under peer pressure? She was the one who remained friends with Snape, despite all the 'peer pressure'. Thus, I fail to see how she was the one who crumbled.

Lastly, “Save your breath” epitomizes what is most disturbing to me about Lily. She doesn’t listen to Sev. Looking at this and the Mulciber memory, I doubt she has listened to him for years. She finishes his sentences for him and never gives him a chance to respond. She says he doesn’t deny that he and his friends all want to be Death Eaters, but how can he deny it? She doesn’t shut up long enough to let him speak!

Snape can't deny it, because it's the truth. And Lily's also had enough of his cavorting with his DE friends, and his fascination with Dark Magic. I'd have lost all respect for Lily if she'd actually taken him back as a friend after that incident. There was no reason for Snape to turn on someone who was standing up for him. He did it because he'd subconsciously taken Lily for granted, assumed that she'd be there no matter how badly he treated her.

How does she know that Snape and his friends all want to be Death Eaters? The way she brings it up indicates Lily and Sev have not discussed the subject before. It is likely this is what the Gryffindors have assumed to be the case and she has picked up on the accusation. Sev opens his mouth but closes it again. Why should he respond? She already “knows” his thoughts, his goals, his motivations. Or thinks she does. Is Lily a Legilimens? Not that JKR has told us. But of course, if Lily speaks it, it must be true, for Lily is never wrong.

She knows, because she knows Snape very well. They were best friends at a point, as Snape reminds her.

Yes, Snape did at some point become a Death Eater, along with his friends, something he later deeply regretted. But there are such things as self-fulfilling prophecies.

However, there are also such a thing as author comments, and according to those, Snape had always been fascinated by the Dark Arts, to the point that he was blinded to Lily's feelings on the issue. Thus, he'd have joined Voldemort sooner or later. The author makes it perfectly clear that it was Snape's fascination with the Dark Arts that was the problem.

And it is very arrogant IMO, to assume that you know the heart and mind of another human being without actually listening to them.

It's shown quite clearly in the text, and in the author comments, that Snape was the one who didn't listen. Lily understood Snape very well, because she was always his friend. Snape didn't understand Lily's aversion, because he was blinded by the Dark Arts.

Lily is at her coldest in this last memory. She is without forgiveness, without pity, contemptuous, without even patience for Sev’s difficulty with speech.

And Snape deserves it, IMHO. He made her look like a fool in front of the whole school. He betrayed their friendship. He proved all of her friends right, proved that she was an idiot for ever thinking that she could make him a better person. I don't understand how Lily comes across as the bad person here, because she is not willing to be a doormat.

Does Lily understand what she is doing as she sends Sev off to become a Death Eater? Does it even cross her mind the h*ll she’s sending him to? Or does she only care that she has been affronted?

Again, Snape's path had already been set, IMO, by himself. He cared more about the Dark Arts that about Lily. Lily would simply have been fooled for a bit more time, if she'd taken him back.

James is not honest with Lily about what occurred in the Tunnel Incident, as Silver Ink Pot has well-outlined. We know that in their 7th year James is still hexing Snape without Lily’s knowledge. The letter to Sirius says that James can’t go out because he doesn’t have his Invisibility Cloak, but no mention that he could go out as Prongs if he wanted to.

Lily's version of the Tunnel incident is corroborated on-page by Dumbledore, Remus and Sirius. Thus, it seems clear that she knows the full story. James did save Snape, and that's what matters. So what if Sirius did send Snape down there? That had nothing to do with James.

As for the animagus forms, there is no mention at all, true. However, it is quite possible that she doesn't with to talk about it in a wartime letter, which might be interrupted. She does call every one of them by their marauder name, after all.

Plus, James is getting restless, which means that he is not going out at all. It's possible that there are restrictions to his animagus form. Stags are not native to England, after all.

Makes one wonder if James ever told Lily about their animagus forms or their little jaunts endangering the countryside with a werewolf, or what really happened down the tunnel. It is very possible that Lily never knew. It is very possible that Lily naively married a man whose true character she never fully knew. If indeed she did know and didn’t care, then it doesn’t speak well of Lily’s judgment.

If Lily did judge her husband by a prank that his friends pulled off when they were kids, then I'd say that she didn't deserve James. What does it matter whether he did stupid things in his youth or not? He was a brave man who fought the Dark Arts all his life, with nothing to gain, and everything to lose. That's the man that Lily fell in love with and married.

James was untrustworthy, IMO, because he did keep secrets and lied, and he was such a reckless individual. Sirius tells Harry that it was the danger that made things fun for James. That’s fine to be an adrenaline-junkie when you are single and only risking your own life, but totally irresponsible when you are betting the lives of others, particularly a wife and helpless child. To any rational person, the half-baked scheme to make Wormtail the Secret Keeper was idiotic, and if they had counseled with Dumbledore about it, I’m sure he would have told them so. Even if Peter hadn’t been a traitor, how long would it take for the Dark Lord to make it to him by a process of elimination? Or as a way to get at Sirius? And they knew there was a spy somewhere close to them… Nevertheless, the plan must have been appealing to James and Sirius by virtue of its danger, as well as to their vanity in that they thought they were so clever in out-witting Voldemort. Of course, James was the one who was fooled, and so was Lily, and they paid for their foolishness with their lives.

Everyone has 20/20 hindsight. Considering that everyone believed Sirius to be the secret keeper for 15 years, I'd say that the plan itself was a success, in that the real identity of the secret keeper was never revealed.

Sev’s fears were based on knowledge, knowledge of James that Lily did not have and that Sev was trying to share with her.

Yes, the knowledge that James fancied her. Lily already knew Snape's theory, and that they snuck about at night. She simply didn't care. Snape did, because he needed to discredit James in front of Lily, so as to eliminate the competition.

This is an interesting question whether Lily and James had a “perfectly happy”, though tragically and “romantically” brief, marriage. I found the silence regarding post-Hogwarts Lily and James truly deafening. All we have is the thank you letter from Lily to Sirius while they are in hiding. Of course, a letter to her husband’s best bud is not the place a wife would express any frustrations. So the lack of data leaves us open to “see what we expect to see”.

Again, lack of corroborating evidence kind of shuts down such conspiracy theories. It's not a soap opera. We've no reason at all to assume that they had a less than happy marriage. The scene at Godric's Hollow shows a happy family.

Unlike zg, I don't fully agree with this. Lily's behavior during the last moments of their friendship (SWM) doesn't indicate to me even the seed of any interest in Severus. If Lily were really thinking of her friend when she approached the bullying crowd, she'd have gotten him away from his tormentors pronto and then chewed out James. As it is, she lets her best friend crawl about on the ground to fight off the Impedimenta hex by himself. James gets all of her attention.

I felt that she was making a point by having James lift the curse himself. A behaviour modifier, so to speak. And, I felt that this was intended to be 'The Showdown', to end this thing once and for all.

However, I do agree that Severus would have limited his time around the junior-DEs for her. I think it meant enough to him.
Jo doesn't think so, though. She tells us that the Dark Arts blinded Snape to the point that he was unable to even understand what she wanted. He thought to impress her by becoming a powerful Death Eater.

Lily is at her coldest in this last memory. She is without forgiveness, without pity, contemptuous, without even patience for Sev’s difficulty with speech. Does Lily understand what she is doing as she sends Sev off to become a Death Eater? Does it even cross her mind the h*ll she’s sending him to? Or does she only care that she has been affronted? This is the evil of self-righteousness, of judgment without compassion, without mercy, without a heart. Dumbledore understood there were things worse than death, that trying to protect a soul was far more important than protecting one’s pride. But that never occurs to Lily, because Lily is all about Lily.


This isn't the first time I've heard someone say something along those lines. Most people say that Lily's behavior towards Snape was unfair. First, I have to mention that she was fifteen. Yes, she was his best friend, but she wasn't his mother! She tried to get him to listen to her, but he didn't. He was blinded by his insecurities. Snape's insecurities were the main factor in his fascination with the Dark Arts. If there's one person to blame for Snape's choice in becoming a DE, it's Snape himself. He is responsible for his own actions.

This isn't the first time I've heard someone say something along those lines. Most people say that Lily's behavior towards Snape was unfair. First, I have to mention that she was fifteen. Yes, she was his best friend, but she wasn't his mother! She tried to get him to listen to her, but he didn't. He was blinded by his insecurities. Snape's insecurities were the main factor in his fascination with the Dark Arts. If there's one person to blame for Snape's choice in becoming a DE, it's Snape himself. He is responsible for his own actions.

Amen. [removed - talking about other members]

Plus, James is getting restless, which means that he is not going out at all. It's possible that there are restrictions to his animagus form. Stags are not native to England, after all.

Just a little note - that's not true. There are native deer in England - the red deer of Scotland. Have you ever read the poem "My Heart's in the Highlands" by Robert Burns?

This isn't just about James, but also Lily and Snape sharing the doe patronus:

http://www.electricscotland.com/burns/hearth.html

My heart's in the Highlands, my heart is not here,
My heart's in the Highlands a-chasing the deer -
A-chasing the wild deer, and following the roe;
My heart's in the Highlands, wherever I go.

Many family crests, including the Snape family, have a stag on them. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/HP%20Research/SnapeFamilyCrest.jpg

My heart's in the Highlands, my heart is not here,
My heart's in the Highlands a-chasing the deer -
A-chasing the wild deer, and following the roe;
My heart's in the Highlands, wherever I go.

Silver ink pot, I hadn't realised, but that verse was also used by the musician Steve McDonald in a song called 'Highland Farewell'. Deer are very much native to Britain, and particularly to Scotland. Given that Hogwarts is in the highlands the deer imagery blends in very well.

Deer are shy, wild, fleet of foot and tend to live in the woods or on the open hills. I think Lily's doe patronus tells us something of the freedom of her spirit, her unwillingness to simply conform and accept restrictions the way Petunia does. Lily and Snape also seem to spend time in the woods as children, the time of their freedom together. Snape's doe patronus of course symbolises Lily and shows that he still values those precious days they spent together. She is his symbol of hope.

[staff edit]

That's true. Though we've seen plenty of scenes between them, it's not really enough. (Wow, that makes me sound so greedy.) Personally, I think that there may have been scenes between some of the memories when Lily is telling Snape that what he's doing isn't right. It would explain some of Lily's behavior in SWM. It seems like their friendship was already falling apart at that point.

One thing I've always had a problem with Snape and Lily's friendship is I don't really see how they got along. I mean, they weren't horrible to each other. But I was wondering what kind of memories they shared to have made them become best friends. Most of the memories between them include arguing. I would've liked to see what parts of their personalities complement each other.

I also wanted to see some memories of them after their friendship ended. That is only if they ever talked after the friendship ended. I was particularly interested in Snape's reaction to Lily and James dating.

Silver ink pot, I hadn't realised, but that verse was also used by the musician Steve McDonald in a song called 'Highland Farewell'. Deer are very much native to Britain, and particularly to Scotland. Given that Hogwarts is in the highlands the deer imagery blends in very well.

Deer are shy, wild, fleet of foot and tend to live in the woods or on the open hills. I think Lily's doe patronus tells us something of the freedom of her spirit, her unwillingness to simply conform and accept restrictions the way Petunia does. Lily and Snape also seem to spend time in the woods as children, the time of their freedom together. Snape's doe patronus of course symbolises Lily and shows that he still values those precious days they spent together. She is his symbol of hope.

I respect your interpretation and I think it does have merit because the characteristics you point out I believe do pertain to Lily. However, JKR indicated that Lily's doe patronus reflected her kindred spirit with and love for James. James' inner animal was a stag for sure (per his animagus form), so his patronus did reflect that. We don't know if Lily's patronus reflected her inner animal as well as her love for James because we don't have canon for that; but it is possible. :) I don't think the doe reflected Snape's inner animal, but rather only reflected his emotions for Lily.

I know it comes out sounding all wrong, but I don't mean it negatively when I say, Snape's doe also reflected Lily's love for James. That was the essence of it. Snape hated James so I don't intend to say otherwise; but the symbolism that it exhibits (all Lily) does, wholly reflect her love for James, so, Snape's patronus would have that element. In a purely metaphoric sense, Snape was acknowledging Lily's profound love for James when he issued it and thus acknowleging James worthiness of Lily's love. I don't think he'd ever admit that though, based on his character. ;)

I also wanted to see some memories of them after their friendship ended. That is only if they ever talked after the friendship ended. I was particularly interested in Snape's reaction to Lily and James dating.

I think we can deduce it from the next memory we see, in which Snape is a Death Eater.

That's true. Though we've seen plenty of scenes between them, it's not really enough. (Wow, that makes me sound so greedy.) Personally, I think that there may have been scenes between some of the memories when Lily is telling Snape that what he's doing isn't right. It would explain some of Lily's behavior in SWM. It seems like their friendship was already falling apart at that point.

One thing I've always had a problem with Snape and Lily's friendship is I don't really see how they got along. I mean, they weren't horrible to each other. But I was wondering what kind of memories they shared to have made them become best friends. Most of the memories between them include arguing. I would've liked to see what parts of their personalities complement each other.

I also wanted to see some memories of them after their friendship ended. That is only if they ever talked after the friendship ended. I was particularly interested in Snape's reaction to Lily and James dating.
No, you're not being greedy. I've been demanding the same thing myself in my past posts. :p There definitely had to be other scenes and memories of Snape and Lily being together and getting along in order for Lily to love Snape as a friend as JKR says. (Once again, told but not shown. :lol:)

I think we can deduce it from the next memory we see, in which Snape is a Death Eater.

I was saying that I wondered whether or not Lily and Snape had any interactions after Lily ended the friendship. They were in the same year and lived near each other for a while . . . it'd be strange if Snape never once tried to get Lily to talk to him again.

You know what I've noticed. There has been so much blaming Lily going around and claiming that she wasn't fair or being a proper friend to Snape during and directly after SWM. I think there is a certain factor that tends to be overlooked: the fact that Lily likely no longer felt safe around Snape. I have a ton of empathy for Lily when she pretty much broke it off with Snape and I just realized the safety factor today. I mean, some tend to see it as such a self-righteous, inconsistent action but...her best friend didn't even consider escaping a path that praises people like Lily to basically be eradicated when he had the chance. After all this time and likely her suspicions of Snape supporting such a path, is it so uncalled for for her to be scared?

Ugh, Snape messed up majorly and it's incredibly sad :( But why can't we accept that and have to blame Lily moreso than Snape for the downfall of their friendship.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think it was pretty obvious that Snape was very awkward and the only wizard child (aside from Lily) in that neighborhood. I think it was mostly the awkward part, especially considering tat Lily was probably already visually stunning.
I think the fact that she was magical gave Snape a reason to approach her, now that they had something in common he would have an excuse to talk to her. If she had just been a muggle he probably would have admired her from afar. This reluctance in approaching her could also be attributed to (and correct me if I'm wrong because I don't know everything about canon history and have only read DH once) Snape being raised in the kind of household that would promote Death Eater values.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world? I think that Lily was already a nice and friendly person, but like I said in the last question Snape's knowing about magic and being the only other person in the neighborhood was definitely the jumping off point.


3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?
When they first met, and probably through the first years of Hogwarts Snape probably acted as a mentor and a teacher, and was the "cooler"(for lack of a better word) one in the relationship. And later Lily, being much more socially acceptable, kind of took on the role of defending Snape when he got picked on.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
They definitely had to work on their friendship, the house system was working on pulling them apart, and I'm sure the longer they where in the school and the more attached they got to their houses the more strained their friendship became.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?
It seems that Gryffindor encouraged the qualities in Lily that would make the friendship work and Slyterin encouraged the qualities in Snape that made it harder for them to stay friends, not to put all of the blame on Snape.
Gryffindor made Lily braver and more willing to stand up for her friendship with Snape, while, conversley, Slyterin(and especially wanting to be accepted by his fellow Slytherins) made Snape question his being friends with a mudblood, and more self serving.
I do think the friendship would have changed drastically if they were in the same house.


6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else? I think trying to stay together when they were being pulled apart really put a strain on things, and made Lily unwilling to forgive Snape after he called her a mudblood.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made? I think if Snape had shown that he was really sincerely apologetic and that he was willing to change his ways including the path he was on to become a deatheater Lily would have been more willing to forgive him and the friendship would have been saved.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship? I think it would have gone romantically, I mean, the dissolution of her and Snape's friendship is part of what made Lily warm up to James in the first place!

I have a ton of empathy for Lily when she pretty much broke it off with Snape and I just realized the safety factor today. I mean, some tend to see it as such a self-righteous, inconsistent action but...her best friend didn't even consider escaping a path that praises people like Lily to basically be eradicated when he had the chance. After all this time and likely her suspicions of Snape supporting such a path, is it so uncalled for for her to be scared?

I see no indication that she was, though. Which actually makes sense, because I also see no indication in the early memories that Snape would ever have knowingly caused her harm. (The later memories, in my opinion, render the idea laughable, but of course Lily did npot have the benefit of our knowledge).

Ugh, Snape messed up majorly and it's incredibly sad :( But why can't we accept that and have to blame Lily moreso than Snape for the downfall of their friendship.

Noone does, though. Most posters on this thread say it was all or mostly Snape's fault. The Black Adder is in a small minority for daring to suggest that they might both be at fault.

Personally, I agree with her entirely that the breakup scene showed Lily in a bad light. But I think the memory of Snape talking to her about the Marauders and Mulciber strongly suggests she had some reasons for being dissatisfied with the way things were going before that point. It's still no way to break up with a best friend, not to let him finish a sentence and leave him struggling to answer a question, after he has tried to apologize.

I was saying that I wondered whether or not Lily and Snape had any interactions after Lily ended the friendship. They were in the same year and lived near each other for a while . . . it'd be strange if Snape never once tried to get Lily to talk to him again.

I'm sure she found ways to discourage it. Since they were in different houses, class was about the only time he could count on finding her, and a popular girl, which we are told she was, would probably be with friends. Not a good opportunity to try again.

I suppose he might have tried that summer, once they were both at home, that would be the logical time. It just makes sense to me that either he did not try, or she did not give him an opportunity by erfusing to see him. It makes sense to me that the memory Snape would show Harry would be the final end of the friendship.

You know what I've noticed. There has been so much blaming Lily going around and claiming that she wasn't fair or being a proper friend to Snape during and directly after SWM. I think there is a certain factor that tends to be overlooked: the fact that Lily likely no longer felt safe around Snape. I have a ton of empathy for Lily when she pretty much broke it off with Snape and I just realized the safety factor today. I mean, some tend to see it as such a self-righteous, inconsistent action but...her best friend didn't even consider escaping a path that praises people like Lily to basically be eradicated when he had the chance. After all this time and likely her suspicions of Snape supporting such a path, is it so uncalled for for her to be scared?
That's something I wondered about as well. "You-know-who" was someone was greatly feared at that time, and having Snape and others wanting to join his ranks would be something to be scared of. And even if it wasn't the case of feeling "safe" around him specifically, it's obvious her trust in him was really deteriorating. But if it was the case that she grew scared of him, that would be really sad. :(
Ugh, Snape messed up majorly and it's incredibly sad :( But why can't we accept that and have to blame Lily moreso than Snape for the downfall of their friendship.We never see the progression of their relationship from best friends to the breakup, which is a problem I have with the memories as well. (I mention this in my last post.) What we have can't define years of being bestfriends. You think about it, allmost all of them are pretty much the two of them arguing toward the end of the flashback.

[staff edit]

I see no indication that she was, though. Which actually makes sense, because I also see no indication in the early memories that Snape would ever have knowingly caused her harm. (The later memories, in my opinion, render the idea laughable, but of course Lily did npot have the benefit of our knowledge).
Well of course he'd never touch a hair on her head, but I'm just thinking about how one would react to their best friend planning to be a part of something of that nature. I don't think it's outside of the realm of possibility that she was scared of what he was doing and what he was becoming. Noone does, though. Most posters on this thread say it was all or mostly Snape's fault. The Black Adder is in a small minority for daring to suggest that they might both be at fault.That was more of a general statement, not exactly specific to this thread but popular opinions elsewhere as well.
It's still no way to break up with a best friend, not to let him finish a sentence and leave him struggling to answer a question, after he has tried to apologize.
I'm not sure if I agree that it made her look bad, but I instead saw a very frustrated girl who wanted to know where her best friend stood. Snape was unable to tell her, and even though I sympathize for him not being able to answer consicely, I can understand why she acted the way she did. I'd probably act the same way :shrug:

But yes, I think things were slowly falling apart between the two prior to the incident. I hate to say that I can understand the feeling at the moment :(
That's something I wondered about as well. "You-know-who" was someone was greatly feared at that time, and having Snape and others wanting to join his ranks would be something to be scared of. And even if it wasn't the case of feeling "safe" around him specifically, it's obvious her trust in him was really deteriorating. But if it was the case that she grew scared of him, that would be really sad.
Well I'd be afraid of somebody who yearns to be part of an organization that wants to see me dead. Snape's reasons for wanting to join them is another (yet again, sad) story.
We never see the progression of their relationship from best friends to the breakup, which is a problem I have with the memories as well. (I mention this in my last post.) What we have can't define years of being bestfriends. You think about it, allmost all of them are pretty much the two of them arguing toward the end of the flashback.
Yeah, I would have liked to see more of them getting along but I guess I'm still very pleased with what we got anyway. I like filling in the blanks on my own :lol:

Well of course he'd never touch a hair on her head, but I'm just thinking about how one would react to their best friend planning to be a part of something of that nature.

I just want to add something here - I think it's important to note that at that time the Death Eaters probably hadn't reached their highest peaks of evil and megalomania, and possibly the name "Death Eater" hadn't yet started to invoke the horror it did later. I'm basing this on Regulus's enthusiasm about them and his later retreat - when he saw what it was actually about, by Sirius's account. So if Regulus was repulsed after he had ben enchanted, that could possibly mean that the whole picture of Voldemort's society wasn't accessible to the outsiders and people didn't exactly know what it was all about, as they did later, when he showed his true colours. So neither Severus, nor Lily knew what he was really trying to get himself into. That's just a possibility though.

Please make sure you stay away from any assumptions about other members, member groups or HP fans in general. We're not here to discuss the whys and hows of different fan groups. Thanks.

Silver ink pot, I hadn't realised, but that verse was also used by the musician Steve McDonald in a song called 'Highland Farewell'. Deer are very much native to Britain, and particularly to Scotland. Given that Hogwarts is in the highlands the deer imagery blends in very well.
Thanks for the information! My mother used to quote that poem to me as a child. I have Scottish ancestors on both sides of my family.

Yes, I've looked at alot of pictures of deer over the years while talking about the Marauders. Red deer are large and beautiful. You can see one of them in the movie "The Queen" with Helen Mirren. They are as large as American Elk.

Deer are shy, wild, fleet of foot and tend to live in the woods or on the open hills. I think Lily's doe patronus tells us something of the freedom of her spirit, her unwillingness to simply conform and accept restrictions the way Petunia does. Lily and Snape also seem to spend time in the woods as children, the time of their freedom together. Snape's doe patronus of course symbolises Lily and shows that he still values those precious days they spent together. She is his symbol of hope.
Excellent point about the symbolism of the doe! :) I agree that Snape associated Lily with wild places, such as the forest where they talked as children. So it's really beautiful that he went to the Forest of Dean (near where JKR herself grew up) and sent the Silver Doe to Harry. *sigh* Such a beautiful chapter. :)

I was saying that I wondered whether or not Lily and Snape had any interactions after Lily ended the friendship. They were in the same year and lived near each other for a while . . . it'd be strange if Snape never once tried to get Lily to talk to him again.
Sadly, I doubt it ever happened. That's why Harry sees Snape's memory during Occlumency of a teenage boy sitting in his dark room killing flies - bored out of his mind, probably.
I suppose he might have tried that summer, once they were both at home, that would be the logical time. It just makes sense to me that either he did not try, or she did not give him an opportunity by erfusing to see him. It makes sense to me that the memory Snape would show Harry would be the final end of the friendship.
I agree. He may have thought of sending her a letter, but on the other hand, Snape had pride, though misplaced in being a DE. But I do believe he was truly sorry for what he said, and Lily's rejection only sent him further to the Dark Side. Not blaming Lily or making excuses - just talking about what actually happened.
Well of course he'd never touch a hair on her head, but I'm just thinking about how one would react to their best friend planning to be a part of something of that nature. I don't think it's outside of the realm of possibility that she was scared of what he was doing and what he was becoming.
I don't agree. I think Lily was disappointed, and thought Sev was ruining his life. The friendship was also complicated by outside friends, such as the Marauders and Mulciber.

I think Lily was scared "for" him, more than scared of him. She's a Gryffindor remember. :lol: She's not scared of too many things.

But I also believe Snape was scared for her about Lupin and the Marauders, who after all, were doing illegal things. He was right to be scared - 20 years later the same werewolf nearly attacked Lily's son, and Snape was there to see it.
I'm not sure if I agree that it made her look bad, but I instead saw a very frustrated girl who wanted to know where her best friend stood. Snape was unable to tell her, and even though I sympathize for him not being able to answer consicely, I can understand why she acted the way she did. I'd probably act the same way
Snape was frustrated also because he was trying to apologize. And of course, he is frustrated by the fact that she overlooks what James did to him that very day, which wasn't too nice.

But I also believe Snape was scared for her about Lupin and the Marauders, who after all, were doing illegal things. He was right to be scared - 20 years later the same werewolf nearly attacked Lily's son, and Snape was there to see it.

I would respectfully disagree that 20 years later Snape was there to see Remus nearly attack Harry. Snape was hanging in mid air, unconscious, throughout Remus' transformation that night and it was Sirius who protected Harry, Hermione and Ron from Remus. Snape was still unconscious when Remus ran off in wolf form with Sirius chasing him in dog form, leaving the trio to discuss what to do with Snape.

Snape didn't even know that Remus had transformed until he was informed of it later when he regained consciousness. And Remus never nearly attacked Harry, he only lunged toward Peter and Ron, but Sirius staved off any potential attack from the start, pulling Remus back by the neck. (POA, Brit. Ed. pg 279). Imo Snape had no idea of any illegal things the Marauders were doing, or he would have told on them and gotten them in trouble or expelled. So I would respectfully disagree that Snape was scared for Lily in relation to Lupin or the Marauders.

I would respectfully disagree that 20 years later Snape was there to see Remus nearly attack Harry. Snape was hanging in mid air, unconscious, throughout Remus' transformation that night and it was Sirius who protected Harry, Hermione and Ron from Remus. Snape was still unconscious when Remus ran off in wolf form with Sirius chasing him in dog form, leaving the trio to discuss what to do with Snape.

Snape didn't even know that Remus had transformed until he was informed of it later when he regained consciousness. And Remus never nearly attacked Harry, he only lunged toward Peter and Ron, but Sirius staved off any potential attack from the start, pulling Remus back by the neck. (POA, Brit. Ed. pg 279). Imo Snape had no idea of any illegal things the Marauders were doing, or he would have told on them and gotten them in trouble or expelled. So I would respectfully disagree that Snape was scared for Lily in relation to Lupin or the Marauders.

I think you're right. Snape's only concern with what the Marauders were doing was to build a case to get them kicked out of Hogwarts.

As the Marauders conducted their excursions in the dead of night, in and around Hogsmeade, Lily was never in any danger as she was safely ensconsed in Gryffindor Tower.

I would respectfully disagree that 20 years later Snape was there to see Remus nearly attack Harry. Snape was hanging in mid air, unconscious, throughout Remus' transformation that night and it was Sirius who protected Harry, Hermione and Ron from Remus. Snape was still unconscious when Remus ran off in wolf form with Sirius chasing him in dog form, leaving the trio to discuss what to do with Snape.

Well, fair enough :) ~ let's say he first "feared" Lupin would attack, and then he perceived that Lupin was still running around in the forest after he regained consciousness. Either way, it was a close call, and Lupin says that in the book.

Snape didn't even know that Remus had transformed until he was informed of it later when he regained consciousness
Eh - I think Snape knew Lupin would become a werewolf that night. He took him his potion, and he knew the moon was coming up. Logic would have it . . .

So I would respectfully disagree that Snape was scared for Lily in relation to Lupin or the Marauders
Lily didn't know that the "thing" under the tree was Lupin, and Snape couldn't tell her without breaking his promise to keep it a secret. But I respectfully believe that he was afraid for her. Snape believed even years later, and Dumbledore agreed, that Sirius had nearly sent him to his death.

Can we keep this on Snape and Lily please?

Thank you for all the replies. And I apologize for getting a little carried away before... I cannot answer everything, but have chosen a few representative reponses on which to comment.

Lily is happy to see her sister when she first appears on the scene. Snape is the one who gets mad and starts yelling. Yes, neither have control over their magic, but I don't think Lily ever thought about wanting to harm her sister in any way. Again, Snape is the only one who doesn't want Petunia to be there, so obviously who else would it be to cut the branch when Petunia retorts back?
Oh no, I don’t mean to suggest that Snape was not the one to make the branch fall. He did make it fall, though involuntarily. Lily has more control over her magic than does young Sev, however, and so she judges him by that standard. I don’t make more of this than only that it can be viewed as a part of a pattern of her being quick-to-judgment without first obtaining a full understanding.

Sounds pretty normal to me. She was only 9 years old.


I personally believe that, even though she was pampered like many youngest children, she behaved just as normally as most young girls would have. I don't think most young girls grow up to be arrogant know-it-alls, either, so I don't believe her behaviour as a child showed this in her overall character as a young woman.
<snip>
Can you really blame Lily for talking back at Snape? She wasn't the kind of person to take things lying down, and her childhood friend, who she'd been defending for years, threw all her help back into her face with one word, which was more or less a wake up call. In her fury, she insulted him, which most anyone will do. Harry insulted Ron when he was being stupid in GoF and in DH, for not believing Harry! Harry actually physically hurts Ron by throwing that badge at his face. Does he ever come across as an arrogant know-it-all, or something of the like? No, he was just really, really angry and hurt, much like Lily was.

There's no doubt that Lily had her own faults, and I can't see her as being selfish with her own pride as you describe. Yes she was stubborn, but I feel that's what part of what made her such a strong girl that didn't take bull from anyone.

Yes, Lily’s reactions and behavior are very normal. I agree that she is a very realistic, well-written character. But what is normal and even commonplace behaviour is not necessarily admirable or the best way to act.

I would respectfully disagree that a strong person has to respond spitefully or hurl back insults for insults in order to show they have a backbone. Dumbledore, for example, always keeps a courteous, even-tempered tone, even when he is being challenged or insulted. Hermione in OotP--the same age as was Lily at the time of Snape’s Worst Memory--does not respond furiously or spitefully to Kreacher, though the cranky house-elf also calls her a “Mudblood”. And because Hermione forgives him and Harry also learns to be compassionate towards him, Kreacher becomes a valuable asset. I see both Dumbledore and Hermione as strong individuals.

And yes, on occasion Harry does jump to conclusions or can become angry without having a full understanding of a situation, or because he has been insulted. On such occasions, I would indeed characterize him--in that moment--as being arrogant or of letting his temper get the best of him, depending upon the situation.

The kind of hexing he did weren't Dark - it was stuff like hanging someone upside down. I'm not trying to make James seem like a saint because he wasn't, but I don't get how Mulciber and Avery's antics are equal to James and Sirius's. Of course Lily could tell which was worse.

Enlarging someone’s head? Choking someone with soap bubbles? Letting them drop on their heads? I have trouble seeing a solid line of demarcation between Dark spells and other spells used in twisted ways.

But more importantly, what does Lily gain by defending James and Sirius? My opinion is that she loses her moral authority by defending them, she loses her power to persuade Severus. Suppose instead of entering into the game of comparing housemates and nit-picking relative bad behavior, that she had instead agreed that ALL hexing-people-for-fun is wrong? She could have then asked Sev if he found it funny when James and Sirius hexed him? Then how must Mary or someone else feel when it is done to them? Is that really a good source of fun or entertainment?

For me, it is understandable that Sev does not take Lily’s warning seriously when she defends her own housemates. Neither do people like to be lectured at. Perhaps if she had agreed with him and removed his defense, listened to his concerns and had an honest, heartfelt conversation, then perhaps Severus would have listened to her, and they both would have heard each other.

So you're saying Lily should have just let her friends rant on about Snape so that she wouldn't be putting herself above him? Friends defend friends, that's it. It doesn't mean one is above the other. Snape wouldn't have always been there to defend himself, so Lily put in a word for him. It doesn't make her better than him, it doesn't put her above him. It makes her a loyal friend.

I believe that there is a difference between defending a friend and “making excuses” for him or her. “Making excuses” suggests that Lily herself was embarrassed to be Sev’s friend, but "lowered herself" to allow him to associate with her. It conveys a condescending attitude, in my opinion.

A good contrast would be when Harry first meets Luna Lovegood on the Hogwart’s Express in OotP. Ginny says simply, “She’s all right.” Ginny doesn’t make excuses for Luna’s kookiness or try to explain her as though there is something wrong with her. Ginny accepts Luna as she is. Harry and the others do think Luna is rather kooky, and not always living in the real world, but nevertheless come to find that Luna is a valuable friend. That is the difference between defending a friend and “making excuses” for them.

Again, we dont' know how she finds out [Snape wants to be a Death Eater]. My problem with the memories that we're shown is there's still a lot we don't know. The interractions between her and Snape are only flashes of the relationship, not enough to define 5 years of friendship. Maybe they did talk about it, and maybe she did warn him, but Snape didn't listen. Just like the memory when Lily tells him Mulciber is creepy and that using Dark Magic was evil, but doesn't listen to her then either.

I agree, exactly, there is a lot we don’t know. So we all fill in the blanks with what we expect to see, what we assume or imagine is in the backstory. But it doesn’t all add up. For example, if Snape were already into the Dark Arts since before Hogwarts (as Sirius suggests), then why does Lily complain about him hanging out with Mulciber rather than complain about Sev’s own Dark Magic activities? And if she is the level-headed girl of good judgment that everyone assumes, then why has she been best friends all these years with this guy who is so much into the Dark Arts? The assumptions just don’t add up for me.

If she really is compassionate and caring as you agree, I have no doubt that she tried her best with dealing with Snape and his downward spiral.

Well, see, I’m not so sure I agree that Lily was really all that compassionate and caring. What I see in the memories is that she had moments of kindness, but with the little we have, it’s hard for me to tell how deep it was.

I, like many fans, somewhat idealized Lily while reading the previous books, but was surprised by the depictions of both teen Lily and teen Sev in DH. Lily’s temper is what is most striking to me about her in The Prince’s Tale, and to be honest, Snape comes across to me as a little fawning and puppy-whipped. :whistle:

Going back through the memories, kindness is evident to me in Lily’s concern about Sev’s homelife, that Petunia was hurt, and that Petunia is sad as Lily is going off to Hogwarts. And I can understand construing kindness in her trying to maintain that Lupin is only ill or her being angry in Mary’s behalf. But Lily’s kindness can turn on a dime. And so many oddly missing opportunities for a caring person. In my opinion, a compassionate friend would be concerned about the welfare of someone who had recently been almost attacked by some unknown creature. A compassionate person would have patience with someone who had difficulty speaking. In fact, I think just listening to someone can sometimes be the greatest kindness of all.

One more thing that seems lacking. The talk outside the common room takes place late that night, hours after the attack on Severus and the insult. Plenty of time for Lily to calm down and decide how it is that she is going to break off her friendship with Severus. I found oddly missing any mention of what their long friendship might have once meant to Lily. There seems missing for me any expression of hope that Severus would change and find a better way.

So I just cannot see kindness or caring as Lily’s dominant trait, as shown in the actual canon. I keep reading assumptions that Lily “must have been” compassionate and caring towards Sev sometime in the past, she “must have” tried to reason patiently with him somewhere off the pages. But that is after all, only assumption. In the pages and memories that JKR have actually given to us, Lily's kindness towards her longtime friend Severus just ain’t much there, in my opinion.

I didn't quote it, but I think you mentioned in your post that assumptions and misscommunication isn't good for a relationship, and I agree completely! There were a good chunk of things that weren't heard or understood between Snape and Lily.

Yay! A point of agreement! Yay!
What I tried to bring out in my original post was that sadly, neither teen-age character was listening to the other, in my opinion. Both could have done at least some things better. This is why I believe both characters, Sev and Lily, bear some degree of responsibility for the loss of their friendship.

I don't agree. I think Lily was disappointed, and thought Sev was ruining his life. The friendship was also complicated by outside friends, such as the Marauders and Mulciber.
You don't think Lily was afraid of the kind of person he was becoming? She seemed scared enough to make it blatently clear that she hated his company.I think Lily was scared "for" him, more than scared of him. She's a Gryffindor remember. She's not scared of too many things. I think she could have been both.
But I also believe Snape was scared for her about Lupin and the Marauders, who after all, were doing illegal things. He was right to be scared - 20 years later the same werewolf nearly attacked Lily's son, and Snape was there to see it.I can see that but these are also two different extremes: Lily being friends with people Snape found to be dangerous folk (and they were to an extent I suppose) and...Lily being afraid of her best friend basically becoming a Death Eater, a person who despised and wanted to exterminate people like Lily. I think it's hard to properly compare.One more thing that seems lacking. The talk outside the common room takes place late that night, hours after the attack on Severus and the insult. Plenty of time for Lily to calm down and decide how it is that she is going to break off her friendship with Severus. Ha, I doubt that if my best friend called me the N word to my face that I'd calm down and be cool and collected when I am face to face with them once again. I think we're making it seem too easy.
I found oddly missing any mention of what their long friendship might have once meant to Lily. There seems missing for me any expression of hope that Severus would change and find a better way.Maybe she has spent too much time hoping and wishing :(

Enlarging someone’s head? Choking someone with soap bubbles? Letting them drop on their heads? I have trouble seeing a solid line of demarcation between Dark spells and other spells used in twisted ways.

But more importantly, what does Lily gain by defending James and Sirius? My opinion is that she loses her moral authority by defending them, she loses her power to persuade Severus. Suppose instead of entering into the game of comparing housemates and nit-picking relative bad behavior, that she had instead agreed that ALL hexing-people-for-fun is wrong? She could have then asked Sev if he found it funny when James and Sirius hexed him? Then how must Mary or someone else feel when it is done to them? Is that really a good source of fun or entertainment?

For me, it is understandable that Sev does not take Lily’s warning seriously when she defends her own housemates. Neither do people like to be lectured at. Perhaps if she had agreed with him and removed his defense, listened to his concerns and had an honest, heartfelt conversation, then perhaps Severus would have listened to her, and they both would have heard each other.

I'd have to say I disagree. The spells James and Sirius used are not described as curses in the series. According to Jo, Dark Arts are referred to as curses. Also, I don't think the spells that James and Sirius casted were Dark Arts themselves. Scourgify is hardly considered dark, is it? The intent of James was wrong, yes, but the spell itself isn't dark. And I don't think enlarging people's heads is dark either. The Weasley twins gave Dudley the toffee and that made his tongue large. Draco made Hermione's teeth large. If the latter was really considered dark, surely his punishment would be severe? (But maybe that's because Snape wouldn't have given Draco a bad punishment.)

Lily never really says that she has a problem with all forms of hexing, I think. (If she does, please correct me. :)) James and Sirius's purposes were to humiliate Snape in SWM, right? That's considered bullying. What Mulciber and Avery were doing was considered bullying - actually it's worse since they used Dark magic. A lot of characters hex others in hallways, but not all of their intentions are to humiliate others. Harry hexes Malfoy occaisionally, but it's not for malicious purposes.

Also, I don't think it was Lily who was being hypocritical. It was Snape. He was the one saying what he was doing was humorous, but he was getting mad at the Marauders for their acts. The Marauders did most of their hexing out of humor. (Or righteous anger ... but we haven't really heard of that.)

I also disagree that Lily was being hypocritical. Even if she was wrong about James not using Dark Magic, how is she being hypocritical? She admits later on that he is an arrogant bullying toerag. She is defending James because he doesn't go as far as Mulciber and Avery.

You don't think Lily was afraid of the kind of person he was becoming? She seemed scared enough to make it blatently clear that she hated his company.

I understand that it makes sense to you that Lily might be scared under the circumstances that you see existing at that point between her and Severus. That some girl could be scared of some boy in such a situation actually makes sense to me as well.

Is there anything in any of the scenes that suggests Lily's fear to you? If so, what? I would be interested in taking a look myself, if there is. To me she seems confident, feisty, and angry, not scared at all. She blushes rather than blanching or looking away when the 'scary' boy looks at her intently. She does not hesitate to deliver a well-aimed return insult when the 'scary' boy insults her in a 'scary' way. She agrees to see the 'scary' boy alone rather than dragging along a friend or refusing to see him at all.

I just don't see it. To me, it seems some combination of hurt and anger at the personal insult to her, and principled opposition to what she assumes are Sev's beliefs and future plans, that is behind her behavior, not fear.

Well no, I didn't see anything blatently in the canon that depicts Lily being afraid of Snape like shuddering away from him or anything. I was just supposing that that fear may have been a factor into her breaking up with him. Not the only factor because I think we're supposed to believe it was a bunch of different things, but I don't think that it was out of the realm of possibility that Lily had some sort of fear for the person her best friend was becoming.
Harry hexes Malfoy occaisionally, but it's not for malicious purposes.
Actually I'm going to have to disagree on that bit :lol: Just about all contact between theose two was malicious.

I'd have to say I disagree. The spells James and Sirius used are not described as curses in the series.

Actually, the Impediment Curse, which Sirius uses on Snape in SWM, is a curse.

And Lily seems to think James uses curses (specifically, Petrificus Totalus, which she identifies as a curse):


'Certainly,' said James and he jerked his wand upwards; Snape fell into a crumpled heap on the ground. Disentangling himself from his robes he got quickly to his feet, wand up, but Sirius said, 'Petrificus Totalus!' and Snape keeled over again, rigid as a board.

'LEAVE HIM ALONE!' Lily shouted. She had her own wand out now. James and Sirius eyed it warily.

'Ah, Evans, don't make me hex you,' said James earnestly.

Take the curse off him, then!'

James sighed deeply, then turned to Snape and muttered the counter-curse.


According to Jo, Dark Arts are referred to as curses.

Actually, they are jinxes, hexes, and curses, with curses being the worst.

Lily never really says that she has a problem with all forms of hexing, I think. (If she does, please correct me. :))

She strongly implies it (or, that she has a problem with James's random hexing of people who annoy him, anyway).


'Messing up your hair because you think it looks cool to look like you've just got off your broomstick, showing off with that stupid Snitch, walking down corridors and hexing anyone who annoys you just because you can - I'm surprised your broomstick can get off the ground with that fat head on it. You make me SICK.'


James and Sirius's purposes were to humiliate Snape in SWM, right? That's considered bullying. What Mulciber and Avery were doing was considered bullying - actually it's worse since they used Dark magic.

As I have established above, this is not a distinction between James and Mulciber.

Also, I don't think it was Lily who was being hypocritical. It was Snape. He was the one saying what he was doing was humorous, but he was getting mad at the Marauders for their acts. The Marauders did most of their hexing out of humor.

We have no idea why Mulciber hexed Mary. He may have thought it was funny too. I think it is clear they were both being hypocritical - overlooking the bad behaviors of their housemates.

She is defending James because he doesn't go as far as Mulciber and Avery.

But if James does use Dark Magic, how do you know he does not go as far as Mulciber? :huh:

Is there anything in any of the scenes that suggests Lily's fear to you? If so, what? I would be interested in taking a look myself, if there is.

I respect your view and I think it is valid. But I got the same impression as Random based on this scene:

Snape: "I didn't mean - I just don't want to see you made a fool of - He fancies you, James Potter fancies you!" The words seemed wrenched from him against his will. "And he's not..everyone thinks...big Quidditch hero -" Snape's bitterness and dislike were rendering him incoherent, and Lily's eyebrows were traveling farther and farther up her forehead.

When I read that, I got the feeling that Lily was beginning to feel anxious about Snape's incoherancy under the circumstances - he couldn't even speak in full sentences, he was so emotional. I thought she cut in putting James down to set him back on balance because his emotional state frightened her as to exactly where it might lead.

That was my impression when I read it. That was the way it hit me and why I wasn't suprised Lily broke the relationship off shortly thereafter.

I'd have to say I disagree. The spells James and Sirius used are not described as curses in the series. According to Jo, Dark Arts are referred to as curses. Also, I don't think the spells that James and Sirius casted were Dark Arts themselves. Scourgify is hardly considered dark, is it? The intent of James was wrong, yes, but the spell itself isn't dark. And I don't think enlarging people's heads is dark either. The Weasley twins gave Dudley the toffee and that made his tongue large. Draco made Hermione's teeth large. If the latter was really considered dark, surely his punishment would be severe? (But maybe that's because Snape wouldn't have given Draco a bad punishment.)

Lily never really says that she has a problem with all forms of hexing,


This is an interesting concept to me....the intentional harm caused by magic in whatever form it takes is mitigated if it's "just a hex" or "could be used to do the laundry" .

Seems to me if the intentions dark...that affects the magic.

I mean out here in the real world I could hit a nail with a hammer or I could hit a person with a hammer and no judge is going to say to me in court, "oh well it was was just a hammer"

I've always had a problem with this idea that dark magic is somehow worse than magic used maliciously or irresponsibly. Either way someone is getting hurt.

But if James does use Dark Magic, how do you know he does not go as far as Mulciber? :huh:

Respecting your conjecture, canon provides that James hated the dark arts, said very seriously by Sirius. Lily says that the Marauders don't use dark magic. Thus I believe it is safe to assume that James did not use dark magic. If he did, it would be safe to assume that Lily would have not dated him as she was clearly against it. JKR said Lily thought he had an inflated ego, not that he used dark magic. :)

I think that was one of Lily's main problems with Snape. He was very interested in the dark arts; he invented spells and fostered his knowledge of the art. He hung with others with a similar interest and all of them were interested in Voldemort who was known to be a dark magician. I think that was a frightening concept to Lily; not only in terms of her own safety, but with respect to the safety of her friends (especially muggle borns). Lily detested Mulciber and Avery - their acts were evidently revealed them as very low individuals to her mind and I don't think she wanted to think that Snape might be just like them.

When I read that, I got the feeling that Lily was beginning to feel anxious about Snape's incoherancy under the circumstances - he couldn't even speak in full sentences, he was so emotional. I thought she cut in putting James down to set him back on balance because his emotional state frightened her as to exactly where it might lead.
I actually think she was just confused as to what on earth that boy was babbling on about :lol: Usually a girl knows when a guy likes them, but Lily must not have thought about it at that point...because that just screams I love you!

Actually, the Impediment Curse, which Sirius uses on Snape in SWM, is a curse.

And Lily seems to think James uses curses (specifically, Petrificus Totalus, which she identifies as a curse):
Hm ... good point. But I guess Dark magic depends on a reader's interpretation of what intention can make a spell Dark. James and Sirius find humor in humiliating Snape. Bellatrix, on the other hand, would find humor in watching someone being tortured. I see the intentions as separate things - one is clearly evil and the other is bad, but not necessarily evil. It's just my opinion, so I can understand why you'd see it differently.

She strongly implies it (or, that she has a problem with James's random haxing of people who annoy him, anyway).
I think she finds James's purposes for hexing Snape as disgusting. Like she said, Snape didn't really do anything. But I don't think she has a problem with all forms of hexing....

As I have established above, this is not a distinction between James and Mulciber.
Well it's hard to say on whether or not one is worse. We don't know what Mulciber and Avery did to Mary Macdonald. If it was something like Sectumsempra, then certainly it is worse than what James did.

We have no idea why Mulciber hexed Mary. He may have thought it was funny too. I think it is clear they were both being hypocritical - overlooking the bad behaviors of their housemates.
Well, if we take what Lily says is true, then it isn't hypocritical. Sure, James and Sirius were wrong, but she says they don't use Dark Magic. I think using hexes out of humor (such as hanging someone upside down) is not nearly as bad as using Dark Magic for humor. This is only assuming James didn't use Dark Magic.

But if James does use Dark Magic, how do you know he does not go as far as Mulciber?
I was saying that out of my personal opinion that James didn't use Dark Magic. If I did think he did, I wouldn't have said this. :)

Actually I'm going to have to disagree on that bit Just about all contact between theose two was malicious.
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I meant that Harry hexing Draco because he provoked Harry isn't nearly as bad as hexing for humiliation. But this isn't the place to discuss Draco and Harry!

I actually think she was just confused as to what on earth that boy was babbling on about :lol: Usually a girl knows when a guy likes them, but Lily must not have thought about it at that point...because that just screams I love you!
I got the impression that she was just confused about what he was saying too. I really do wonder if Lily ever knew, or had any suspicion about Snape's feelings for her and/or how much she meant to him. Because that could have led to her trying another tactic on how to deal with him. It really is just sad. :sad:

I got the impression that she was just confused about what he was saying too. I really do wonder if Lily ever knew, or had any suspicion about Snape's feelings for her and/or how much she meant to him. Because that could have led to her trying another tactic on how to deal with him. It really is just sad. :sad:

I always figured that if Lily knew that Snape had feelings for her, she didn't realize how much. She may have thought he was infatuated but in love. It'd be pretty sad if she did know that he loved her and she ended their friendship like that. :(

I always figured that if Lily knew that Snape had feelings for her, she didn't realize how much. She may have thought he was infatuated but in love. It'd be pretty sad if she did know that he loved her and she ended their friendship like that. :(

Lily could have attempted to stick out the relationship, but it was quite unhealthy near the end and I don't think it would have served either of them to stick with it. JKR didn't like the idea of young girls going for the 'bad boys' and I think Lily is an example of an individual wise enough to recognize the error in doing so and strong enough to put an end to it. I don't think she knew he fancied her; I think she felt he felt about her as she did about him.

From Snape's point of view, because he fancied her, it would be difficult to let her go. However, he had a choice of giving up his dark magic interests and acts or Lily. He chose to give up Lily. Lily wasn't the only girl in the world; he could have found another and strove to change for that girl; but he didn't. His priorities remained on the dark arts with a hope in the back of his mind that once he was powerful enough, Lily would be impressed - maybe even return. It is not unconcievable that Snape felt that it could even happen once he had fully joined up and she was married to James. That is something that often happens when one places all of one's focus and emotions on one individual in a romantic sense. Snape may have talked himself into believing that and justified his continued feelings for her in that way. And then her death would forever seal those emotions inside of him.

really do wonder if Lily ever knew, or had any suspicion about Snape's feelings for her and/or how much she meant to him. Because that could have led to her trying another tactic on how to deal with him. It really is just sad.
But the plot required her to reject Snape for his poor choices in friends (junior DEs) and hobbies (the dark arts). He had to go down his dark path and eventually report the prophecy (and eventually beg for her life). The story is far more interesting this way, too. He was supposed to suffer and be tragic, and then eventually redeem himself through bravery. Otherwise, he might have been a boring, happy-go-lucky wizard, selling custom potions in Diagon Alley.

I respect your view and I think it is valid. But I got the same impression as Random based on this scene:

Snape: "I didn't mean - I just don't want to see you made a fool of - He fancies you, James Potter fancies you!" The words seemed wrenched from him against his will. "And he's not..everyone thinks...big Quidditch hero -" Snape's bitterness and dislike were rendering him incoherent, and Lily's eyebrows were traveling farther and farther up her forehead.

When I read that, I got the feeling that Lily was beginning to feel anxious about Snape's incoherancy under the circumstances - he couldn't even speak in full sentences, he was so emotional. I thought she cut in putting James down to set him back on balance because his emotional state frightened her as to exactly where it might lead.

That was my impression when I read it. That was the way it hit me and why I wasn't suprised Lily broke the relationship off shortly thereafter.

I didn't get the impression from the reading exactly because she raised her eyebrows, which is usually more a sign of scepticism or mild mockery, relating to the fact that Snape was running out of arguments against James. It also makes me believe that she did not suspect that Snape was head over heels in love with her, which adds to the feeling I got of Lily not being an overly sensitive type.

From Snape's point of view, because he fancied her, it would be difficult to let her go. However, he had a choice of giving up his dark magic interests and acts or Lily. He chose to give up Lily.

I don't think the choice was that simple from his point of view. He already feared that Lily might fancy James as well, so giving up everything else, his interests and friends for the hope of one day being with the girl he loves but who hasn't even realized how he feels about her. He did not consciously choose to give up Lily. I think he thought he could manage both and have things under control until it was too late already and he couldn't save the friendship anymore. That's exactly why it's so sad - because it was so avoidable.


But the plot required her to reject Snape for his poor choices in friends and hobbies (the dark arts). He had to go down his dark path and eventually report the prophecy (and eventually beg for her life). The story is far more interesting this way, too. He was supposed to suffer and be tragic, and then eventually redeem himself through bravery. Otherwise, he might have been a boring, happy-go-lucky wizard selling custom potions in Diagon Alley.

I agree :lol:!

Oh no, I don’t mean to suggest that Snape was not the one to make the branch fall. He did make it fall, though involuntarily. Lily has more control over her magic than does young Sev, however, and so she judges him by that standard. I don’t make more of this than only that it can be viewed as a part of a pattern of her being quick-to-judgment without first obtaining a full understanding.
But I don't see how this incident could serve as evidence of the pattern you're trying to prove, because her behavior to me was completely understandable. Her was sister was harmed because of Sev's doing whether he meant it or not. I can't see why she wouldn't be extremely angry at him for hurting her sister. To be honest, I'm surprised she didn't do more than just yell. :whistle:

I would respectfully disagree that a strong person has to respond spitefully or hurl back insults for insults in order to show they have a backbone. Dumbledore, for example, always keeps a courteous, even-tempered tone, even when he is being challenged or insulted. Hermione in OotP--the same age as was Lily at the time of Snape’s Worst Memory--does not respond furiously or spitefully to Kreacher, though the cranky house-elf also calls her a “Mudblood”. And because Hermione forgives him and Harry also learns to be compassionate towards him, Kreacher becomes a valuable asset.
But Snape isn't a house elf that's been raised all his life to have a slave mentallity. He was someone responsible for his own choices, and I'm sure Lily knew that, which is more of a reason to be angry for all he's done. So the two situations can't really be compared to each other.

But more importantly, what does Lily gain by defending James and Sirius? My opinion is that she loses her moral authority by defending them, she loses her power to persuade Severus. Suppose instead of entering into the game of comparing housemates and nit-picking relative bad behavior, that she had instead agreed that ALL hexing-people-for-fun is wrong? She could have then asked Sev if he found it funny when James and Sirius hexed him? Then how must Mary or someone else feel when it is done to them? Is that really a good source of fun or entertainment?
As I'm sure someone else said before, there really isn't evidence to say she thought any of what James and Sirius did was funny. There's not even canon evidence to tell us what kind of relationship she had with any of the Mauraders at this time.

For me, it is understandable that Sev does not take Lily’s warning seriously when she defends her own housemates. Neither do people like to be lectured at. Perhaps if she had agreed with him and removed his defense, listened to his concerns and had an honest, heartfelt conversation, then perhaps Severus would have listened to her, and they both would have heard each other.
The thing is, we don't know how many arguements/discussions they had about their problems. I will say that I can agree that Lily may not have understood Snape's insecurities. But could that have been because of Lily's lack of understanding other people, or because Snape never communicated exactly what he wanted? Or if he even knew how bad his insecurities were? Plus, JKR says herself that Snape was very blind by his facination with the Dark Arts. So we have some insight on Snape's way of thinking, but we still can't be sure about Lily.

I believe that there is a difference between defending a friend and “making excuses” for him or her. “Making excuses” suggests that Lily herself was embarrassed to be Sev’s friend, but "lowered herself" to allow him to associate with her. It conveys a condescending attitude, in my opinion.
I find it very hard to believe since it's already stated that she loved him as a friend. Plus, I took her "making excuses for him for years" and "non of my friends know why I even talk to you" as that despite her friends complaining about Snape, she still stood by him and defended him despite even her own doubts of what he was becoming.

I agree, exactly, there is a lot we don’t know. So we all fill in the blanks with what we expect to see, what we assume or imagine is in the backstory. But it doesn’t all add up. For example, if Snape were already into the Dark Arts since before Hogwarts (as Sirius suggests), then why does Lily complain about him hanging out with Mulciber rather than complain about Sev’s own Dark Magic activities? And if she is the level-headed girl of good judgment that everyone assumes, then why has she been best friends all these years with this guy who is so much into the Dark Arts? The assumptions just don’t add up for me.
Actually, we don't know how much Lily knew of Snape's facination with the Dark Arts. Could he have hid it from her all this time? But once again, maybe they did have discussions about this before, but she kept putting up with it hoping he would change. I know the movie's area probably the worse reliable source for canon, but I do consider the "big hint" JKR mentioned that was in movie 3, where Lupin talks about Lily being someone was very kind and "saw the good in the people even when they couldn't see it themselves." If Snape was as bad as we suspect he is, this would definitely explain it Lily's reasoning. This was her bestfriend that we know she loved as a bestfriend. That to me is enough to want to stay and try work things out for that long.

Well, see, I’m not so sure I agree that Lily was really all that compassionate and caring. What I see in the memories is that she had moments of kindness, but with the little we have, it’s hard for me to tell how deep it was.
Again, see my last reply above. And I do agree there is a lot we dont' know. What we're shown is only selected flashbacks. As happy as I am have them, Lily and her whole relationship with Sev is still a huge mystery to me.

Here's the flaw I noticed throughout the books. There's too much we're told, but not shown. James' character is a perfect example of this. We're told he matured after 7th year, yet the most of when we see him "alive" is when he's being the arrogant toerag he used to be. We don't see the progression of toerag to the man who defends his family against Voldy. Again, told but not shown.
If you notice, all the memories have Sev and Lily arguing at some point. That's definitely not evidence that they had a healthy relationship, or that Lily loved him as a friend. Of course it doesn't add up. We don't see any good memories that lead to Lily loving this boy as a friend, nor do we see the progression of bestfriends to the breakup. And as I said before, this can't be helped. The memories that we have are there only to serve the plot and to tell Harry "Snape loved Lily" and the information that he needs to carry on. Harry's the main story, so the complete back story to Sev and Lily doesn't need to be there even though it would give us a fair knowledge of who they were.

Enlarging someone’s head? Choking someone with soap bubbles? Letting them drop on their heads? I have trouble seeing a solid line of demarcation between Dark spells and other spells used in twisted ways.
Enlarging someone's head is as easy to fix as enlarging someone's teeth. Using Canary Creams as another example, this sort of thing is commonplace and relatively harmless in the Potterverse.

Snape did not choke on soap bubbles. He gagged. There is a difference. It was undoubtedly unpleasant and intended to be so, but it was not Dark magic. Washing someone's mouth out with soap and water is a traditional Muggle cure for bad language!

Does it say in the books that people suspended in the air by Levicorpus fall on their heads? Ron seemed fine, and so did Snape.

Some random examples of Dark magic and other Death Eater activities shown to us in DH are:

* a snake wearing a dead body
* torturing people, ie causing unbearable physical pain
* murder
* feeding people to snakes
* fiendfyre
* kidnapping and imprisoning people in a dark cellar for months
* putting people on trial and imprisoning them for having Muggle parents

I don't have any problem seeing a clear difference between Death Eater activities and Marauder activities, and it seems that Lily understood the difference as well. Snape, on the other hand, was unable to see it.

But more importantly, what does Lily gain by defending James and Sirius? My opinion is that she loses her moral authority by defending them, she loses her power to persuade Severus.
Are you suggesting that she loses her moral authority by being able to see the moral difference between pranks and Dark magic?For me, it is understandable that Sev does not take Lily’s warning seriously when she defends her own housemates. Neither do people like to be lectured at. Perhaps if she had agreed with him and removed his defense, listened to his concerns and had an honest, heartfelt conversation, then perhaps Severus would have listened to her, and they both would have heard each other.
I don't think Snape would have taken any warning seriously at that point. Lily made her feelings perfectly clear, and we can also see that they had had this conversation, or something very similar, many times before. Also, I disagree that Lily was lecturing him - she was begging him - begging out of friendship because she cared for him! Snape, and Snape alone, is responsible for his decisions. "It is our choices that make us what we are", as Dumbledore once told Harry.

As I'm sure someone else said before, there really isn't evidence to say she thought any of what James and Sirius did was funny. =

There's this:

But too late; Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash of light and a gash appeared on the side of James's face, spattering his robes with blood. James whirled about: a second flash of light later, Snape was hanging upside-down in the air, his robes falling over his head to reveal skinny, pallid legs and a pair of greying underpants.

Many people in the small crowd cheered; Sirius, James and Wormtail roared with laughter.

Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile, said, 'Let him down!'


Plus, JKR says herself that Snape was very blind by his facination with the Dark Arts. So we have some insight on Snape's way of thinking, but we still can't be sure about Lily.

If it is not in the book, how is a reader who just buys the books at a stort and reads them, even carefully and repeatedly, to draw such a conclusion? The books are (alas) not told from Snape's point of view, so we can only guess at what he is thinking from what he says and what we are shown.

Here's the flaw I noticed throughout the books. There's too much we're told, but not shown. James' character is a perfect example of this. We're told he matured after 7th year, yet the most of when we see him "alive" is when he's being the arrogant toerag he used to be. We don't see the progression of toerag to the man who defends his family against Voldy. Again, told but not shown.

Right, and we are not even told by the objective narrator of the series. We are told within the books by characters, who like all human beings may not be reliable - they could be deliberately concealing the truth to make Harry feel better, they could be blinded to it by loyalty to an old friend, they could be hobestly mistaken, or they could be 100% correct. Without the corroborative evidence of seeing James as an adult for ourselves, It's left ambuguous, and each reader may quite reasonably come to a different conclusion.

The memories that we have are there only to serve the plot and to tell Harry "Snape loved Lily" and the information that he needs to carry on. Harry's the main story, so the complete back story to Sev and Lily doesn't need to be there even though it would give us a fair knowledge of who they were.

I think the evidence of a good relationship is its longevity. We do know it lasted 6-7 years, based on Snape's apparent age of 9-10 when they first met. Exactly what it was based on is left to speculation to an extent.

Right, and we are not even told by the objective narrator of the series. We are told within the books by characters, who like all human beings may not be reliable - they could be deliberately concealing the truth to make Harry feel better, they could be blinded to it by loyalty to an old friend, they could be hobestly mistaken, or they could be 100% correct. Without the corroborative evidence of seeing James as an adult for ourselves, It's left ambuguous, and each reader may quite reasonably come to a different conclusion.

I respect your opinion, but generally if characters are being mendacious and misconstruing someone's character, JKR will make it evident at some point in the tale that a mis-characterization has occurred. For example, Harry called Snape a betrayer, through the entire series from book one to book 7, and then in the TPT chapter, JKR helped anyone who hadn't realize it see that Snape had not been a betrayer - that Harry had misconstrued Snape after DD's death. Harry portrayed James in one way after SWM and JKR thereafter had characters belie this for us. If she wanted to point out that all of those characters were lying, she would have because it was she who brought it all up in the first place. What reason would she have for leaving us with an ambiguity in this regard?


I think the evidence of a good relationship is its longevity. We do know it lasted 6-7 years, based on Snape's apparent age of 9-10 when they first met. Exactly what it was based on is left to speculation to an extent.

Here again we are faced with the same situation in my opinion. JKR did leave us with an ambiguity in the series as to how Lily felt about Snape as a friend. However, she didn't want that ambiguity to exist, so she told her readers after the fact: Lily loved Snape as a friend. I agree she did not tell us how that was possible (and we saw nothing in canon that would answer that), but for purposes of the tale we know how Lily felt while she and Snape were friends. :)

=

There's this:

But too late; Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash of light and a gash appeared on the side of James's face, spattering his robes with blood. James whirled about: a second flash of light later, Snape was hanging upside-down in the air, his robes falling over his head to reveal skinny, pallid legs and a pair of greying underpants.

Many people in the small crowd cheered; Sirius, James and Wormtail roared with laughter.

Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile, said, 'Let him down!'

This was something else that was mentioned before, but I think it's a good point. The girl had seen her bestfriend in his greying underwear. If it wasn't considered funny to her, then it could be said she was a bit weirded out since that might been more than she's ever seen of him (or ever wanted to see for that matter :err:) which would explain the slight smile.

[QUOTE]If it is not in the book, how is a reader who just buys the books at a stort and reads them, even carefully and repeatedly, to draw such a conclusion? The books are (alas) not told from Snape's point of view, so we can only guess at what he is thinking from what he says and what we are shown.
As I mentioned before, this is Harry's story. The full out details of Snape and Lily's relationship wouldn't be there because they aren't important to the main plot. I call it a flaw only because this way of telling the story doesn't give us everything we'd like to know, hence why different conclusions fly all over the place. The memories however, are told from Snape's POV to some extent, but they're still very selected memories. This doesn't show enough details of how their relationship was at whatever points. My conclusion however is that I don't think there's enough evidence to whether Lily was partly to blame for the breakup. If it is, the only thing I can agree with is that there was a lack of communication and understanding from both parties.

Snape did not choke on soap bubbles. He gagged. There is a difference.

Canon states otherwise.

Pink soap bubbles streamed from Snape's mouth at once; the froth was covering his lips, making him gag, choking him -

Washing someone's mouth out with soap and water is a traditional Muggle cure for bad language!

Don't I know it. :p Oddly enough, when my mom did it she never made me gag or choke. It just tasted NASTY.

Does it say in the books that people suspended in the air by Levicorpus fall on their heads? Ron seemed fine, and so did Snape.

They fall down, no mention is made of them rotating in mid-air, so at best I imagine they can manage to tuck their heads in and fall in their back/shoulders. Ron was lying in bed when Harry did it to him, so of course he would have had a soft landing, it is stated he fell 'in a heap' on his mattress.

Regarding Severus, the canon is:

'Certainly,' said James and he jerked his wand upwards; Snape fell into a crumpled heap on the ground. Disentangling himself from his robes he got quickly to his feet, wand up, but Sirius said, 'Petrificus Totalus!' and Snape keeled over again, rigid as a board.


Going rigid as a board and falling to the ground does not strike me as a particularly pleasant experience either. It's 100% the wrong way to fall (speaking as a martial artist here).

I don't have any problem seeing a clear difference between Death Eater activities and Marauder activities, and it seems that Lily understood the difference as well. Snape, on the other hand, was unable to see it.

No one on this thread is having any difficulty understanding that, but thanks for the explanation. :) What we are having difficulty understanding is the (alleged by Lily when talking to Snape) difference between The Marauders' activities and the activities during fifth year of Snape's Slytherin friends. We know that the Marauders' activities nearly resulted in the deaths of two students fifth year, this is testified to by Severus as an adult, Dumbledore, Lupin as an adult, and not contradicted in any way by Sirius as an adult. Given the wide variety of characters who all agree about this alleged fact, I believe it is true.

We are not even told about any life-threatening activities by Severus's friends. Mulciber 'tried' something 'evil' on Mary, according to Lily. I am afraid I just don't see why that is worse that a 'prank' that endangered two lives.

Are you suggesting that she loses her moral authority by being able to see the moral difference between pranks and Dark magic?

As I understand the argument, she loses her moral authority because there isn't a difference between the groups she compares, and she imposes one out of an inclination to see Slytherin as the bad guys, in line with the prejudices of her House. Just as Snape's loyalty to his friends in his House keeps him from seeing her point about his friends.

The argument that there is a difference is essentially circular - the only evidence we have of this is that Lily says so. And from that, it is suggested we conclude that Lily was right. We are not given evidence that Snape or his friends, at the point in fifth year when the conversation occured, had used on fellow students Dark Magic more serious than the jinxes, hexes, and curses used by the Marauders. It seems to me that canon fails to shed light on the difference if, indeed, one existed.

I respect your opinion, but generally if characters are being mendacious and misconstruing someone's character, JKR will make it evident at some point in the tale that a mis-characterization has occurred.

Snape insists James died 'too arrogant to believe he could be mistaken in Black'. We do not see adult James. I guess I am right, then, and James's swollen head (Sirius and Lily both insist it was so) never did shrink. ;)

More seriously, there is no 'rule' in literature against ambiguity. Presenting the testimony about some event or person, by different characters with different views and motives, and then leaving it for us to sort out, is a perfectly legitimate artistic choice. Used well, this technique enhances rather than detracts from our enjoyment of a story, because there remains something for us to think about.

So, in the end, Lily says Snape's friends are worse than the Marauders. Snape disagrees. My own view coincides with The Black Adder's in this instance - both little gangs are wrong, engaging in cruel, hurtful, and dangerous behavior towards other students. On this issue, Sev and Lily are on equal footing, and her attempt to assume the high ground fails to impress me. I do not believe she has it.

Now, during the breakup scene, Lily brings up the issue of 'bloodism', and the Death Eaters. And there, she does have the high ground. I agree with her position.

Canon states otherwise.

Pink soap bubbles streamed from Snape's mouth at once; the froth was covering his lips, making him gag, choking him -



Don't I know it. :p Oddly enough, when my mom did it she never made me gag or choke. It just tasted NASTY.

Just as an aside, I did choke when my teacher sent me to the corner to wash my mouth out with soap. I guess I had the same reaction as Snape. But it was not disastrous for me, it was disastrous for the teacher - she had to clean my lunch up from the floor and I left the room laughing. :)


They fall down, no mention is made of them rotating in mid-air, so at best I imagine they can manage to tuck their heads in and fall in their back/shoulders. Ron was lying in bed when Harry did it to him, so of course he would have had a soft landing, it is stated he fell 'in a heap' on his mattress.

Regarding Severus, the canon is:

'Certainly,' said James and he jerked his wand upwards; Snape fell into a crumpled heap on the ground. Disentangling himself from his robes he got quickly to his feet, wand up, but Sirius said, 'Petrificus Totalus!' and Snape keeled over again, rigid as a board.


Going rigid as a board and falling to the ground does not strike me as a particularly pleasant experience either. It's 100% the wrong way to fall (speaking as a martial artist here).

I agree Snape's fall would have been on a harder surface. However, that was the more common landing and no one was hurt from it. The students were doing it to one another as they walked the halls and their mates would land on the ground. If it had been causing real damage to the kids, it would have been stopped by the administration. Further, Snape got up quickly, and there is no mention of his being in pain. Finally, I don't think when Snape created it he had landing on a soft bed in mind.

As for the TP curse - I agree, that one likely hurt Snape a bit as did the slash/gash Snape issued on James. Mutual hexing, mutual damage in my opinion, although I respect your view if you see it distinctly.



Snape insists James died 'too arrogant to believe he could be mistaken in Black'. We do not see adult James. I guess I am right, then, and James's swollen head (Sirius and Lily both insist it was so) never did shrink. ;)

Yes but that was controverted by Sirius and Remus who said James' head shrunk and by the fact that Lily married James. So that particular example is pertinent to my point.


More seriously, there is no 'rule' in literature against ambiguity. Presenting the testimony about some event or person, by different characters with different views and motives, and then leaving it for us to sort out, is a perfectly legitimate artistic choice. Used well, this technique enhances rather than detracts from our enjoyment of a story, because there remains something for us to think about.

I agree, but in the case of Snape's opinion on James, that is not the case imo.


So, in the end, Lily says Snape's friends are worse than the Marauders. Snape disagrees. My own view coincides with The Black Adder's in this instance - both little gangs are wrong, engaging in cruel, hurtful, and dangerous behavior towards other students. On this issue, Sev and Lily are on equal footing, and her attempt to assume the high ground fails to impress me. I do not believe she has it.

Now, during the breakup scene, Lily brings up the issue of 'bloodism', and the Death Eaters. And there, she does have the high ground. I agree with her position.

I respect your opinion, but in the first instance, isn't it up to Lily to decide if the distinction between dark magic and light magic is meaningful to her? It may not be meaningful to you or I, so we would not take a high or low ground position on it. However, if it is meaningful to someone, don't they have a right to express their opinion on the matter? Snape's interest in the dark arts is Lily's main concern with respect to him, she does fear for where that will lead him. That aspect of Snape's approval of his friends over the Marauders is what is bothering Lily. That is why she brings it up.

So, in the end, Lily says Snape's friends are worse than the Marauders. Snape disagrees. My own view coincides with The Black Adder's in this instance - both little gangs are wrong, engaging in cruel, hurtful, and dangerous behavior towards other students. On this issue, Sev and Lily are on equal footing, and her attempt to assume the high ground fails to impress me. I do not believe she has it.

Who used a dark curse in SWM? It certainly wasn't James or Sirius.

I think we tend to forget the many thousands of incident reports Filch amassed on wrongdoers at Hogwarts. Jinxing, hexing, and mild cursing were pretty much a way of life at Hogwarts. The line, such as it was, was drawn at using dark magic against another student, which would certainly have gotten Dumbledore's attention, or that of another teacher or Head of House.

One thing that never gets talked about when it comes to Snape is his implied reputation on the Hogwarts campus. I say "implied" because there is no precise sentence or paragraph in the text of the books to declare him the top bad boy among the Slytherins. We do know from the text that Snape was highly unpopular among the students at the school.

He didn't become unpopular by accident!

Lily was making excuses for him for years. He knew more curses when he came to Hogwarts than half the kids in Seventh Year. It appears that he used some of those curses often enough for the Marauders to pick up on them and use the more harmless ones... the ones that weren't dark. None of the teachers ever spoke of fond reminiscences of Snape's years as a student at the school, not even Slughorn who was head of Slytherin at the time.

Contrast that to what appears on the pages of the books about James and Sirius. They were exceptionally well-liked, respected by the students and the staff alike, always good for a laugh. They were also preparing to fight Voldemort when they left school; whereas Snape was preparing to join him.

I think Lily - or any Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, or Ravenclaw - would have had the high ground when discussing Snape, Avery, and Mulciber.

Who used a dark curse in SWM? It certainly wasn't James or Sirius.

I think we tend to forget the many thousands of incident reports Filch amassed on wrongdoers at Hogwarts. Jinxing, hexing, and mild cursing were pretty much a way of life at Hogwarts. The line, such as it was, was drawn at using dark magic against another student, which would certainly have gotten Dumbledore's attention, or that of another teacher or Head of House.

I think this is a very good point. What Lily was upset about was the dark magic, not the light magic hexes and jinxes. In HBP (Brit Ed. pg 498), it says that James and Sirius had detention slips with "various petty misdeeds", occassionally accompanied by those of Remus Lupin and Peter Pettigrew. That is how Lily characterized what the Marauders did. Now there were no slips showing multiple horrible deeds done by the Marauders to Snape or Harry would have likely noted it. In fact, there is no mention of Snape on a slip at all - he likely took them out, together with any that had the Marauders and him hexing one another because Snape would be listed for detention on those as well.

So that is what makes Lily's vehemence on this point understandable imo. The Marauders, did various petty misdeeds, but the dark arts crew from Slytherin were doing dark arts magic on people - clearly not in the open where they would be caught, but doing it nonetheless as verified by Lily and Snape. Lily really had every right to take the moral high ground if she saw dark magic as wrong - which she did.

What I love about Snape is that although he may have been "fascinated by the Dark Arts" as a boy, as a man he is most important in the book for using a Charm - "Expelliarmus." The Disarming Charm, which Harry learns from him in the Dueling Club, Book 2.

That is significant because Lily's wand was "good for charms." For all we know, he learned the charm first from her, and maybe they practiced, just as Harry practices with the DA.

I think as an adult, Snape wanted to be more like Lily, and less like his old self as a boy. He certainly learned to be brave, which is why Dumbledore said, "we sort too soon." Fear can be overcome, and Severus certainly learned that in his lifetime. :)

If it is not in the book, how is a reader who just buys the books at a stort and reads them, even carefully and repeatedly, to draw such a conclusion? The books are (alas) not told from Snape's point of view, so we can only guess at what he is thinking from what he says and what we are shown.
And that's why we're lucky to have Jo to help clarify what might remain unclear. No author can predict what readers will find unclear, and even that does vary with different readers, so we're fortunate to have that additional insight.

If we are to accept that Jo states that Snape was a hero, then we are also to accept that Jo stated that Snape turned to the dark arts.
What I love about Snape is that although he may have been "fascinated by the Dark Arts" as a boy, as a man he is most important in the book for using a Charm - "Expelliarmus." The Disarming Charm, which Harry learns from him in the Dueling Club, Book 2.He didn't teach that to Harry. It was the most logical spell for him to use when facing Lockhart in the duel. He used it and Harry picked it up all by himself. Harry was the one who decided it was a useful spell. However, it seems to be one of the most common spells used in dueling, so Harry would have learned it soon enough. He saw it used in PoA, and he practiced it for the Triwizard Cup. The kids learn spells two ways--they are taught in class or they see someone casting a useful spell. The fact that Snape used Expelliarmus in front of Harry would only be noteworthy if there had been no other way for Harry to learn that spell.

We don't actually have canon that Lily was talented in Charms. The only canon we have is about Potions.

Plus, JKR says herself that Snape was very blind by his facination with the Dark Arts.
If it is not in the book, how is a reader who just buys the books at a stort and reads them, even carefully and repeatedly, to draw such a conclusion? The books are (alas) not told from Snape's point of view, so we can only guess at what he is thinking from what he says and what we are shown.Not only do we, as the first generation of Harry Potter readers, have the advantage of the author's own comments (which we cannot disregard, if we are to interpret her intentions correctly), but many, if not most, of the readers do find that the books make this clear enough. Snape was fascinated by the Dark Arts, says Jo. We see that throughout the books - he wants the Dark Arts teaching post at Hogwarts, he speaks of the Dark Arts "with a loving caress" in his voice, and he was blinded by his fascination in his schooldays, even though it caused the end of his friendship with the only girl he ever loved. If that isn't blind I don't know what is!

Right, and we are not even told by the objective narrator of the series. We are told within the books by characters, who like all human beings may not be reliable - they could be deliberately concealing the truth to make Harry feel better, they could be blinded to it by loyalty to an old friend, they could be hobestly mistaken, or they could be 100% correct. Without the corroborative evidence of seeing James as an adult for ourselves, It's left ambuguous, and each reader may quite reasonably come to a different conclusion.
While the series was unfinished the character portraits were unfinished too. However, now we have all the information we need and there are no significant blanks to fill in. That means that the information we have is correct.

*turns topic back to Snape*

But we also lack the details of Snape's conversion. We know as little about Snape's reformation as we do about James's! It happens in the course of one short chapter, but is corroborated by various clues in previous books. Snape and James both changed. We don't follow them through every step of the process, but we are told that they both changed and we have no reason to doubt it. Is it possible that they were both motivated by love of the same girl?

This was something else that was mentioned before, but I think it's a good point. The girl had seen her bestfriend in his greying underwear. If it wasn't considered funny to her, then it could be said she was a bit weirded out since that might been more than she's ever seen of him (or ever wanted to see for that matter ) which would explain the slight smile.
The chapter The Prince's Tale explained a lot, not least about the order in which events happened. At the time of SWM Lily already knew that Snape was stalking the Marauders, trying to get them into trouble. He had already developed a number of hexes, at least one of which had time to become very popular with the other students, eg Levicorpus. Dare I suggest that Lily almost smiled because it was funny? Because she knew Snape wasn't a poor little victim, but an accomplished hexer in his own right who just happened to get caught this time? From what we've seen of Lily, I certainly would not expect her to find a victim/bully situation amusing. Yet her mouth twitches. I think she knew very well that this was not a serious situation, just another playground brawl.

I agree Snape's fall would have been on a harder surface. However, that was the more common landing and no one was hurt from it. The students were doing it to one another as they walked the halls and their mates would land on the ground. If it had been causing real damage to the kids, it would have been stopped by the administration. Further, Snape got up quickly, and there is no mention of his being in pain. Finally, I don't think when Snape created it he had landing on a soft bed in mind.
Excellent point! If Levicorpus caused head injuries, I think we'd know about it and so would Lily. She certainly didn't react as if Snape was in any actual danger.He didn't teach that to Harry. It was the most logical spell for him to use when facing Lockhart in the duel. He used it and Harry picked it up all by himself. Harry was the one who decided it was a useful spell. However, it seems to be one of the most common spells used in dueling, so Harry would have learned it soon enough. He saw it used in PoA, and he practiced it for the Triwizard Cup. The kids learn spells two ways--they are taught in class or they see someone casting a useful spell. The fact that Snape used Expelliarmus in front of Harry would only be noteworthy if there had been no other way for Harry to learn that spell.

I agree that Harry learning Expelliarmus from Snape was more down to Harry's own resourcefulness and quick learning than to Snape's foresight! And yes, he would certainly have picked it up along the way, along with all the other defensive spells he learned.

Who used a dark curse in SWM? It certainly wasn't James or Sirius.

They used curses in a dark way. Thinking of how Snape was feeling during SWM we have to remember just days before Sirius sent Snape down into the willow where he could have possibly been killed. It seems natural to me that Snape may be a bit upset still. On top of that he used the curse in self defense. I don't agree with the curse he used but then again I don't agree with what the James and Sirius did in that scene either.



One thing that never gets talked about when it comes to Snape is his implied reputation on the Hogwarts campus. I say "implied" because there is no precise sentence or paragraph in the text of the books to declare him the top bad boy among the Slytherins. We do know from the text that Snape was highly unpopular among the students at the school.


I think this all goes back to Snape being in Slytherin. Their house isn't very well liked. Also being friends with Mulciber and Avery probably helped cement Snape's unpopularity.

He didn't teach that to Harry. It was the most logical spell for him to use when facing Lockhart in the duel. He used it and Harry picked it up all by himself.

I agree that Harry learning Expelliarmus from Snape was more down to Harry's own resourcefulness and quick learning than to Snape's foresight! And yes, he would certainly have picked it up along the way, along with all the other defensive spells he learned.


Snape agreed to do the dueling club, since they had such a dreadful teacher that year. Snape knew Harry wasn't going to learn anything from Lockhart, so as he does many times in the books, he made sure that Harry learned that spell.

Sure, he could have picked it up from someone else, or learned it from a book, but in the canon Snape taught it to him.

From CoS:

Harry reached his wand just in time. Lockhart had barely raised his, when Harry bellowed, "Expelliarmus!"

Lockhart was blasted backward, falling over his trunk; his wand flew high into the air; Ron caught it, and flung it out of the open window.

"Shouldn't have let Professor Snape teach us that one," said Harry furiously, kicking Lockhart's trunk aside. Lockhart was looking up at him, feeble once more. Harry was still pointing his wand at him.

I think Harry gets the last word on who taught him Expelliarmus. :)

We don't actually have canon that Lily was talented in Charms. The only canon we have is about Potions.

No, but we are told in Book One that her wand was good for charms:

"Good afternoon," said a soft voice. Harry jumped. Hagrid must have jumped, too, because there was a loud crunching noise and he got quickly off the spindly chair.
An old man was standing before them, his wide, pale eyes shining like moons through the gloom of the shop.
"Hello," said Harry awkwardly.
"Ah yes," said the man. "Yes, yes. I thought I'd be seeing you soon. Harry Potter." It wasn't a question. "You have your mother's eyes. It seems only yesterday she was in here herself, buying her first wand. Ten and a quarter inches long, swishy, made of willow. Nice wand for charm work."

They used curses in a dark way. Thinking of how Snape was feeling during SWM we have to remember just days before Sirius sent Snape down into the willow where he could have possibly been killed. It seems natural to me that Snape may be a bit upset still. On top of that he used the curse in self defense. I don't agree with the curse he used but then again I don't agree with what the James and Sirius did in that scene either.

Self defense? He attacked James when the latter wasn't even looking at him, while James was trying to ask Lily out. It was Sirius who caught James's attention, and yelled "OI!"; after James got hit by the curse, he whirled around and used Levicorpus on Snape. IMO, that was much more in self defense than what Snape did, considering he himself had his back turned, and Snape had his wand raised and had just used his own dark curse. I think Lily nearly smiled because of the irony - Snape's spell was being used against him, by none other than James.

Self defense? He attacked James when the latter wasn't even looking at him, while James was trying to ask Lily out. It was Sirius who caught James's attention, and yelled "OI!"; after James got hit by the curse, he whirled around and used Levicorpus on Snape. IMO, that was much more in self defense than what Snape did, considering he himself had his back turned, and Snape had his wand raised and had just used his own dark curse. I think Lily nearly smiled because of the irony - Snape's spell was being used against him, by none other than James.


This really isn't the thread to discuss who is more evil James or Snape. I think neither were,just so everyone knows. This is how I feel. Snape was ganged up on in SWM and yes he attacked James after he had been hexed. Human nature being what it is, it doesn't seem out of the norm to me what Snape did. It was a dark curse and that in itself is wrong. However when you are in a situation like that your natural reaction is to fight back.

You could be right about why Lily smiled. That seems about right to me. It could have been that she also was attracted to James but was trying to suppress that at the time.

Since this seems to be a hot topic here, I'd like to offer up a thread where the intent behind the magic is being discussed: What Are Dark Arts Really? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=109980).

As to Snape in the first Defense Against the Dark Arts lesson, when he speaks 'a little louder' about the defense, I take that as his putting emphasis on that aspect. I agree with whoever said as he grew older Snape realized it's better to be more like Lily, and I absolutely loved how Expelliarmus was used in the last book. It's a beautiful lesson and I'm glad Snape (and Harry) learned it, and we could see how it played out.

They used curses in a dark way. Thinking of how Snape was feeling during SWM we have to remember just days before Sirius sent Snape down into the willow where he could have possibly been killed. It seems natural to me that Snape may be a bit upset still. On top of that he used the curse in self defense. I don't agree with the curse he used but then again I don't agree with what the James and Sirius did in that scene either.

He didn't use sectumsempra in self-defense. Both James' and Sirius' attention had been diverted by Lily's appearance. They were talking to her. James was promising never to hex Snape again if Lily would go out with him. Snape crawled to his wand and blindsided James with that spell. That was sheer jealousy on Snape's part.

I think this all goes back to Snape being in Slytherin. Their house isn't very well liked. Also being friends with Mulciber and Avery probably helped cement Snape's unpopularity.

By that same logic, wouldn't Lily's friendship with and defense of Snape have cost her her popularity?

I honestly think Snape earned every bit of his unpopularity at Hogwarts. The only good thing he had going for him was Lily's friendship - and that wasn't enough to get him to reconsider the path he had set himself upon.

They used curses in a dark way. Thinking of how Snape was feeling during SWM we have to remember just days before Sirius sent Snape down into the willow where he could have possibly been killed. It seems natural to me that Snape may be a bit upset still. On top of that he used the curse in self defense. I don't agree with the curse he used but then again I don't agree with what the James and Sirius did in that scene either.


I agree with you; I too believe it was mutual hexing. But that sort of thing is common; in comparison we could ask, did we like it that Hermione punched Draco in the nose? That Draco tried to crucio Harry or that Harry struck him with Sectumsempra? Maybe; maybe not, but it was all just like brawling that breaks out in Muggle society public schools imo - the wizard world just uses magic. :)

I agree that Snape was feeling angry and humiliated by the werewolf prank at the time of SWM. I also think he was feeling Jealous during that time because he had an inkling that Lily fancied James. However, while Sirius told Snape how to stop the Willow, Snape did take the advice of his enemy and do so, then walked the tunnel of his own volition on the night of a full moon - knowing Lupin went there on the full moon with Madam Pomfrey - and suspecting Lupin was a werewolf. So he knew he was walking into potential danger. Then James rescues him of all people. I think Snape left that event with acute feelings of humiliation and in SWM, James washing his mouth out with soap combined with Sirius' impedimenta curse would have only made him feel more humiliated and angry.

Lily then came on the scene and not only does Snape feel that she may fancy James - Snape fancies Lily. So he has all that previous humiliation going on I spoke of above, plus the humiliation of it happening in front of the girl he fancies. Combine that with jealousy from the James-Lily dual fancying of one another and James overtly flirting; well Snape had a lot of emotions to deal with and they culminated in anger (his swearing, lashing out with the curse, and issuing of threats). So I agree he was upset - more than that, livid really.

Even if she was wrong about James not using Dark Magic, how is she being hypocritical? She admits later on that he is an arrogant bullying toerag. She is defending James because he doesn't go as far as Mulciber and Avery.

She is being hypocritical IMO because she is quibbling over degrees of bad behavior. It is like someone trying to tell a friend that taking drugs is a bad thing while she is sitting there sipping her alcoholic beverage of choice. Technically, legalistically, Lily may be right that there are differences, but she has already defeated her purpose because Severus isn’t going to take her seriously, and he’s just deflected the conversation from himself to the Marauders, AND put her on the defensive, all in one sentence.

I’m not going to get into the Who/What Was Worse debate that has been argued ad nauseum (and is appropriate for another thread). My point that you did not address is Was Lily’s Tactic in Defending James etc Successful in Persuading Severus? What was more important to Lily in that exchange? Persuading her friend that hanging with Mulciber was not a good thing to do? Or being right and “winning” the argument?

People have a habit of defending their own positions (and I am occasionally guilty of falling into this trap as well) instead of trying to communicate effectively with another person. The desire to be “right” and “win the argument” is a cause of the destruction of many relationships.

I believe that Lily chose an ineffective communication style, which was based not a little bit on pride. It is very “normal”, “understandable”, and extremely common to fall to defending one’s marginal positions rather than listening and trying to understand the other person, but it is not very effective in helping a friend or promoting a friendship.

Whether or not Severus would have responded to a calm heart-to-heart talk, we don’t know, because JKR chose not to show us one. To our knowledge, it was never tried. And for the record once again, I think both bore some degree of responsibility for the destruction of the friendship.

I believe that Lily chose an ineffective communication style, which was based not a little bit on pride. It is very “normal”, “understandable”, and extremely common to fall to defending one’s marginal positions rather than listening and trying to understand the other person, but it is not very effective in helping a friend or promoting a friendship.

Whether or not Severus would have responded to a calm heart-to-heart talk, we don’t know, because JKR chose not to show us one. To our knowledge, it was never tried. And for the record once again, I think both bore some degree of responsibility for the destruction of the friendship.

I respect your opinion, but to be fair, Snape and Lily did have many conversations up to that point and I imagine they didn't all go that way or they would not have remained friends for almost five years at Hogwarts. It is very possible they had had many different types of conversations on that topic in the past. Many times when friends speak about the same negative topic ad naseum, they find new ways to broach it - but if neither ever budges it just doesn't work out.

In this case, it didn't. Lily went the light way and Snape went the dark way, each deciding for themselves what was more important - their outlook on life or the other person. For example, if Snape, after their final conversation in front of Gryffindor, had determined that he was going to drop everything dark arts and then returned to Lily a week or two later with his new found outlook, I am sure they could have been friends again. Likewise, if Lily, had decided dark arts was the way to go and run back to Snape, he would have ilkely been friends with her again.

But neither did that; their outlooks remained strong and that kept them apart. It simply was not meant to be imo.

No, but we are told in Book One that her wand was good for charms:

Of course I knew that. It was kind of hard to overlook in the eight or more times I read the book. It has been the source of countless popular fan theories. However, we have never seen any proof of that, and that was what I was addressing. Instead, the only skill we did see referred to was potions.

I think Harry gets the last word on who taught him Expelliarmus.
Well Harry certainly learned the spell watching Snape. I don't see why it's particularly important that he learned it from Snape, though, since it would only be significant if there would have been no other way for Harry to learn it. And that is highly unlikely given the several other opportunities Harry had to learn the spell. Here the salient issue is that it wasn't a unique spell or a unique opportunity for Harry to learn it.

There are important contributions that Snape made to the series and to Harry, in particular. This isn't one of them.

Originally Posted by silver ink pot
No, but we are told in Book One that her wand was good for charms:
Of course I knew that. It was kind of hard to overlook in the eight or more times I read the book. It has been the source of countless popular fan theories. However, we have never seen any proof of that, and that was what I was addressing. Instead, the only skill we did see referred to was potions.

I still stand by my assertion that as Snape grew older, he wanted to be more like Lily, hence the fact that he had her Patronus.

And since Charms are considered "positive" while the Dark Arts are "negative," then I think it's great that Snape's favorite subject was "Defense Against the Dark Arts," and that Harry learned the useful charm "Expelliarmus" from Snape.

I'm sure Lily knew plenty of charms - why not? I see no canon against it. And if her wand was good for charms, and Ollivander ought to know, she was probably good at them, just as James was obviously good at Transfiguration, because his wand was good at that.

There are important contributions that Snape made to the series and to Harry, in particular. This isn't one of them.

I respectfully disagree. Expelliarmus is the only spell that ever worked against Voldemort.

I can still visualize Snape and Lily practicing that. We don't know who their DADA teachers were, but we know they all stayed for just one year. So they would need the practice.

This really isn't the thread to discuss who is more evil James or Snape. I think neither were,just so everyone knows. This is how I feel. Snape was ganged up on in SWM and yes he attacked James after he had been hexed. Human nature being what it is, it doesn't seem out of the norm to me what Snape did. It was a dark curse and that in itself is wrong. However when you are in a situation like that your natural reaction is to fight back.

You could be right about why Lily smiled. That seems about right to me. It could have been that she also was attracted to James but was trying to suppress that at the time.

I wasn't trying to make one look more evil than the other. All I meant to say was that, in this situation, his use of Sectumsempra wasn't in self defence, as James had his back turned and was quite focused on Lily.

I think her little smile is really all up for the reader, which I really like. I personally like the idea that it was the irony of the moment that caused it, and perhaps a bit to do with her hidden feelings for James as well. I dunno if she'd have smiled if Sirius had been the one to do it - I mean, she didn't even pay him any attention during the whole ordeal, she always remained focused on James.

I respectfully disagree. Expelliarmus is the only spell that ever worked against Voldemort.

Well yes, it was an incredibly important spell to the series. But the thing is, it could have been taught to Harry any number of ways. I personally believe the Snape/Lockhart duel - where Harry first sees the spell used - was really for comedic relief. I found it quite hilarious, myself. I'd agree with you on this if it'd been more like Remus teaching Harry the Patronus charm. That was another incredibly important spell to the series, and Remus definitely put quite a bit of effort into teaching him, whereas Snape was not doing this for Harry's sake, he was doing it for the whole crowd of students.

It didn't add anything to Snape's character that he was the one to first use it in front of Harry. If she'd wanted to, Jo could have made Flitwick, McGonagall, Sprout - whoever - use it instead of Snape, and Harry would have gotten to the same place in the end. So that's why I believe her use of Snape here was because it was funny to see the irritated Snape go up against the silly, fumbling Lockhart.

I wasn't trying to make one look more evil than the other. All I meant to say was that, in this situation, his use of Sectumsempra wasn't in self defence, as James had his back turned and was quite focused on Lily.

I think her little smile is really all up for the reader, which I really like. I personally like the idea that it was the irony of the moment that caused it, and perhaps a bit to do with her hidden feelings for James as well. I dunno if she'd have smiled if Sirius had been the one to do it - I mean, she didn't even pay him any attention during the whole ordeal, she always remained focused on James.


Well I view it as self defense. James may not have been looking but Snape had just been bullied right before it is only natural for him to try and get back at James after the incident. We can agree to disagree on this. :)

Yeah I think Lily was attracted to James during SWM. She only twitches like she is about to smile but stops herself. I took that as she knew what James was doing was wrong but couldn't help but be attracted to him. Fighting her attraction for him I guess you could say.

Well I view it as self defense. James may not have been looking but Snape had just been bullied right before it is only natural for him to try and get back at James after the incident. We can agree to disagree on this. :)

I respect what you are trying to say, but the term "self defense" means defending one's person when physically attacked - but not 'getting back at someone.' The latter would be revenge; is that what you mean to say?

I too feel Snape wanted revenge; he was angry and humiliated and thus lashed out with the Setumsempra curse, spilling blood when James was not looking.

Thinking about it from an objective standpoint; Sirius indicated that Snape knew more curses than 1/2 the kids in seventh when they arrived. That likely meant that any sessions of animosity between them when they were young, Snape had the advantage when it came to issuing curses (which is how Sirius would know - he saw many directed at himself and his friends). Snape apparently continued to increase his arsonal, inventing curses 'for enemies' which goes a bit further than what we saw as the norm in Harry's day.

Exploring Lily's character in this situation: I believe that Lily knew this as well as anyone. She's staring at James with blood dripping liberally down his check (as it spattered onto his robes) lifting up her friend Snape and his underwear showing for the world. It was in that moment her mouth twitched. She knew deep inside that the move was revenge on James' part for a bloody cheek - she could see the humor in it - but at the same time, she recognized that it was a sequence of revenge moves on the part of all parties involved.

Lily felt a need to defend her friend and asked James to let him down. At that point Sirius joined in and Lily whipped out her wand in defense of Snape. Snape has an ally and a formidable one because James has no intention of hexing Lily due to his crush on her - although he threatens to do so. Alas we see this is true as he undoes Sirius' curse.

Now you have a two on two situation - but Snape immediately turns on his defender/commrade. Snape's blurting out the expletive, equal to a racial slur, not only angers Lily, but James as well. One aspect of this I have not seen explored is how Lily must have felt in that particular moment toward everyone. Obviously she is hurt, humiliated and angry at Snape - but James defense of her (considering he is a pureblood) likely means a lot more to her than we get on page.

But Lily didn't want to acknowledge her feelings for James in that moment, not her crush, not her appreciation for his stance against using racial slurs (blood superiority terms) or anything else. Lily instead blurts out a series of James' faults, having nothing to do with the matter at hand and then storms away. But looking at this objectively, what upset her most about that encounter? Not James or Sirius, but rather her friend, Snape, turning on her and calling her a 'mudblood' and yet she doesn't say a word about that.

I think that is pretty telling under the circumstances; Lily is extremely upset by Snape's behavior - and she takes it all out on James. In her heart, the roles should have been reversed - the pureblood, arrogant, conceited James who pranks any and everyone and involuntarily musses his hair; he is the one who should have used the racial slur and turned against her, not her friend, Snape who was a half blood himself, had a muggle parent and who she believed thought way too highly of her to ever do such a thing.

I think that was an eye opener for Lily in many ways. Note her words to James: "You are as bad as he is." Snape has taken a steep drop in her eyes - his dark arts interests were one thing, but his depreciation of her as a person is another. It is one thing to have what she sees as personal faults but it is another to look down upon your friend - who days before you insisted was your 'best friend'. While James, for all of his faults, has appreciated her character/person. Lily, at that point, had to have felt deeply betrayed; she came to Snape's defense and then had to be defended by the person she was defending him against.

I think she saw both young men in a whole new light at that moment; she determined that Snape's character (his interests in the dark arts, willingness to depreciate others, interest in Voldy and hanging with those who felt similarly) was not going to change - but worse, he devalued her as well. I think in her head she realized that what she wanted was someone like James who even in the midst of a hex war with her wand aimed at his head, would not only never aim a racial slur at her, but who would come to her defense (less his conceited arrogance of course). That I believe is what propelled Lily to call off her relationship with Snape.

What I mean is Snape was sitting under a tree minding his own business when James came to him. Snape cut James face, eventhough I don't approve of the spell used I still view it as self defense. Since it came after Snape had already been hexed. It is only natural to fight back IMO. For all Snape knows James and Sirius will start in on him again. I am willing to concede that Snape was most likely jealous of James in the scene. It seems to me they were both jealous of one another over Lily. That explains James "the fact that he exists" comment when speaking to Lily. :)

Ah I think I see what you are saying. That everything Snape did was out of self-defense because James and Sirius started it. Is that what you mean? On that point I was just trying to say that if it is akin to the real world, it would not be considered a self-defense act because he wasn't being attacked at the time. :)

Can we keep the focus on Snape/Lily rather than Snape/James?

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
As a child, I'm assuming, because of how he was treated while at Hogwarts, that he was shy and insecure and was afraid to let someone in. As we saw that he didn't approach Petunia because she was a muggle, he wouldn't have approach Lily if she had been a muggle unless he really had feelings for her.
2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?
Once she found out about the Wizarding world, she probably wanted to know more about it. Since she was the only witch in her family, she only had Severus to talk to about everything. If they had never met, then Lily wouldn't have a clue about the Wizarding World and she and Snape's friendship never would have grown.
3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?
Yes it was a friendship of equals. Lily wanted to know more about the Wizarding World, since she was muggleborn and didn't know anything. Snape never had any friends and Lily was his first and true friend.
4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
I think that since they were both placed in seperate houses, Lily and Snape both grew apart as the years went on. The Gryffindors would have questioned Lily and wanted to know why she was friends with Snape and the Slytherins would have given Snape a hard time, since he was friends with a muggleborn.
5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?
They never changed at all. They were just influenced by the house mates, as they didn't understand why Snape and Lily would ever be friends. I believe that their friendship might have lasted longer if Snape was sorted into another house, since Gryffindors never got along with any of the Slytherins.
6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?
All of it. Snape had gotten more into the Dark Arts as the years went on. I think the Mudblood insult was the last straw for Lily and their friendship ended. Everything at Hogwarts piled onto them so quickly, like the hatred amongst the other houses, that they just finally grew apart.
7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?
One choice that might have saved their friendship was that Snape shouldn't have been pressured into anything that the Slytherins were saying. They could have probably become friends once they were out of Hogwarts, but since Snape joined the death eaters, that never happened.
8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?
They most likely would have stayed life long friends.

I respectfully disagree. Expelliarmus is the only spell that ever worked against Voldemort.

Dumbledore used a number of spells in OotP that worked against Voldemort.

I can still visualize Snape and Lily practicing that. We don't know who their DADA teachers were, but we know they all stayed for just one year. So they would need the practice.

It doesn't seem to be a particularly difficult spell to cast. Harry watched Snape use it against Lockhart. A few weeks later, Harry used it against Draco Malfoy without any tuition other than observing it.

The reason the spell worked so well for Harry had everything to do with the wands. Harry's phoenix-feather wand shared cores with Voldemort's wand. The Elder Wand belonged to Harry and the text tells us it "would not kill" its master.

And beneath it all, there was the protection of Lily's sacrifice. Snape set that up, of course, by asking Voldemort to spare her... but that pales in comparison to Lily's courage and suffering in shielding Harry from Voldemort.

Originally Posted by silver ink pot
I respectfully disagree. Expelliarmus is the only spell that ever worked against Voldemort.
Dumbledore used a number of spells in OotP that worked against Voldemort.
But not Harry.

And beneath it all, there was the protection of Lily's sacrifice. Snape set that up, of course, by asking Voldemort to spare her... but that pales in comparison to Lily's courage and suffering in shielding Harry from Voldemort.

I think Snape tried to live up to that standard of bravery the rest of his life, which is why Harry gave the child who had Lily's eyes - and therefore who also looked like Harry - the name of Severus. He honored that ideal that Snape had until he died. Not only that, he states what he thought of Snape out loud to Albus Severus. There's nothing gray about that piece of canon. :)

I think Snape tried to live up to that standard of bravery the rest of his life

Maybe... but he also did everything in his power to make Harry miserable.

Not only that, he states what he thought of Snape out loud to Albus Severus. There's nothing gray about that piece of canon. :)

There is no question about Snape's bravery in pursuing the role of double-agent against Voldemort. He was in constant danger during those years.

Harry's forgiveness, whether complete or partial, is, however, extraordinary.

Lily? If this is just another thread about Snape we can close it and just have one to deal with.

But I don't see how this incident could serve as evidence of the pattern you're trying to prove, because her behavior to me was completely understandable. Her was sister was harmed because of Sev's doing whether he meant it or not. I can't see why she wouldn't be extremely angry at him for hurting her sister. To be honest, I'm surprised she didn't do more than just yell.
There’s that word “understandable” again. Sure it is, but was it just? The Ministry of Magic doesn’t hold underage wizards or witches accountable for involuntary magic. Wishing harm on someone and once in a great while it happens (like when Harry wished harm on Aunt Marge) is not the same as pulling out a wand and pointing it, knowing that it will happen. Sev, in fact, had just got through explaining that to Lily. If Lily had truly understood what he had told her, and if Lily had understood that Sev didn’t have the kind of control that she herself had, would Lily have been as angry at Sev? Perhaps she would have been trying to explain to Petunia instead that Sev couldn’t control what had happened. We don’t really know.

But I only include this incident at all because it is an early example of Lily’s tendency to rush to judgment. She jumps to a conclusion--that Sev had the same kind of control over his magic as she did.

As a teen she jumps to the conclusion that the story of the Tunnel Incident--from whatever her source--was all she needed to hear, without hearing Sev’s side of the story or asking him any questions.

In breaking off the friendship, she has concluded that Sev--as a 5th year 16 year old--wants to become a Death Eater, without ever having asked him if this is what he is thinking, or listening to his thoughts and feelings about the subject.

Understandable, perhaps, but not very fair. Would you want a friend who was always jumping to the worst conclusions about you, without ever asking for or listening to your side of the story?

But Snape isn't a house elf that's been raised all his life to have a slave mentallity. He was someone responsible for his own choices, and I'm sure Lily knew that, which is more of a reason to be angry for all he's done. So the two situations can't really be compared to each other.

So, if I understand you correctly, you agree that Hermione is a strong character for refusing to be furious or lash back at Kreacher. Shouldn’t the standard be the same for the treatment of other humans? Don’t humans deserve the same kind of attempt at patient understanding as for a house-elf? I’m not saying Lily shouldn’t be angry about Severus’s racist Mudblood remark or the rejection of her help. But the way in which someone expresses their anger says a lot about them IMO.

What about Dumbledore who is always courteous, though firm, with everyone, including his enemies? Who gives second chances. Do you think he should go stomping about, losing his temper and returning nasty insults because he’s dealing with other humans who are responsible for their choices?

Remember what he says to Draco on the Tower?
“It is my mercy, and not yours, that matters now.”
The one who has the greater power and understanding is the one who has the greater responsibility to be merciful, patient, and forgiving, in my opinion.

The thing is, we don't know how many arguements/discussions they had about their problems. I will say that I can agree that Lily may not have understood Snape's insecurities. But could that have been because of Lily's lack of understanding other people, or because Snape never communicated exactly what he wanted? Or if he even knew how bad his insecurities were?
I would say both (or all three…). You’re right, young Severus was not very good at communicating, and probably was not much in touch with his inner feelings and motivations. That is also not unusual, especially in a young male. But surely Lily knew Severus well enough to know he was not very articulate? She claims he is her best friend. That is why I am put off by her impatience with his difficulties with speech. I guess I can relate to him a bit in those moments because I also am not always able to express myself verbally, and so I do find her impatience and even “contempt” (as described in the last memory) as quite unkind.

I find it very hard to believe since it's already stated that she loved him as a friend. Plus, I took her "making excuses for him for years" and "non of my friends know why I even talk to you" as that despite her friends complaining about Snape, she still stood by him and defended him despite even her own doubts of what he was becoming.
First off, another one of those things we don’t know is just what her friends were complaining about. Kids, as we know, can be very cruel about all kinds of things. We do know that the Marauders made fun of Severus’s big nose and greasy hair. Others may have made fun of his hand-me-down clothes or books, or his having trouble speaking, or simply that he was a Slytherin. Notice that in those two memories, Lily never once accuses him of indulging in Dark Magic. Her complaint about his hanging around with Mulciber and Avery and using the term “Mudblood” strikes me as a relatively recent development. I think most of the “excuses” she was making for him were regarding more personal attacks.

And unfortunately, she doesn’t say she “defended him”. She does say she had been “making excuses”. There is a difference, in my opinion. From the dictionary:

“Defense” as a noun-- “an argument in support”
“Defend” as verb-- “to drive danger or attack away from; to maintain in the face of argument or hostile criticism”;

Whereas:
“Excuse” as a noun-- “something offered as justification”;
“excuses” (plural)--“an expression of regret for failure”
“Excuse” as a verb-- “to make apology for”

Look at how Harry’s friends defend and support him. They don’t make excuses and apologies for him. Making excuses or apologies for a friend is condescending, in my opinion.

Actually, we don't know how much Lily knew of Snape's facination with the Dark Arts. Could he have hid it from her all this time? But once again, maybe they did have discussions about this before, but she kept putting up with it hoping he would change. I know the movie's area probably the worse reliable source for canon, but I do consider the "big hint" JKR mentioned that was in movie 3, where Lupin talks about Lily being someone was very kind and "saw the good in the people even when they couldn't see it themselves." If Snape was as bad as we suspect he is, this would definitely explain it Lily's reasoning. This was her bestfriend that we know she loved as a bestfriend. That to me is enough to want to stay and try work things out for that long.
<snip>
If you notice, all the memories have Sev and Lily arguing at some point. That's definitely not evidence that they had a healthy relationship, or that Lily loved him as a friend. Of course it doesn't add up. We don't see any good memories that lead to Lily loving this boy as a friend, nor do we see the progression of bestfriends to the breakup. And as I said before, this can't be helped. The memories that we have are there only to serve the plot and to tell Harry "Snape loved Lily" and the information that he needs to carry on. Harry's the main story, so the complete back story to Sev and Lily doesn't need to be there even though it would give us a fair knowledge of who they were.
I agree absolutely that we are not shown enough, and it does create confusion and room for disagreement.

In my opinion, "Compassionate-Sensitive Lily" was an assumption that many of us expected to see prior to DH, perpetuated by Lupin’s comment in movie PoA. As far as I’m concerned, however, "Sensitive Lily" does not appear in DH or The Prince’s Tale. If JKR had wanted to give us "Sensitive Lily", I believe she had ample opportunity, but she did not. Did the author “forget” to include something definitive? Maybe… But I tend to believe that what we see is who Lily was. Lily has qualities of kindness, but it is often overshadowed by her impatience and quick temper. It is very possible that she was always this impatient and hot-tempered, but young Severus loved her anyway.

I’ve been thinking about Molly as a possible parallel. Perhaps it’s not an accident that she becomes a bit of a surrogate mother to Harry. Anyway, Molly is a great character, I like her a lot, but her temper is something that her family fears and seeks to avoid. Even her husband Arthur sees the need to hide things from her, sometimes. Harry loves her and appreciates her nurturing, but he finds her a bit over-protective and smothering at times. And I don’t know that Molly’s wrath actually keeps any of her children from misbehaving either. So that’s just a thought I’ve been toying with, that Molly might give us some clues as to how Lily might have been more generally, or what she might have been like if she had survived.

And unfortunately, she doesn’t say she “defended him”. She does say she had been “making excuses”. There is a difference, in my opinion. From the dictionary:

“Defense” as a noun-- “an argument in support”
“Defend” as verb-- “to drive danger or attack away from; to maintain in the face of argument or hostile criticism”;

Whereas:
“Excuse” as a noun-- “something offered as justification”;
“excuses” (plural)--“an expression of regret for failure”
“Excuse” as a verb-- “to make apology for”

Look at how Harry’s friends defend and support him. They don’t make excuses and apologies for him. Making excuses or apologies for a friend is condescending, in my opinion.


I respect your opinion, however I think there is a distinction in the comparison that you are drawing.

Hermione and Ron felt what Harry was doing was right and so they defended him. Lily felt what Snape was doing was wrong, so she couldn't defend him - as per your definition.

For example, Lily couldn't make an argument in support of Snape if they asked her: "why do you hang around him? He throws dark curses!" She can't support Snape's behavior with a valid argument because she too believes that it is wrong and he should not do it. The best she can do is make an excuse as an 'expression of regret or failure' (per your definitions) in saying something along the lines of: 'I try to talk to him about it, but he isn't very receptive. But you have to understand that he is surrounded by people who feel that type of thing is fine and they have a great amount of influence on him, etc.' So I don't believe the situation with Hermione/Ron/Harry and Snape/Lily are the same.

I think that Lily's reactions to Snape are motivated by sincere feelings of frustration, helplessness and sadness - and anger at the end due to his name calling when she was coming to his defense. The conversations we saw are just a drop in the bucket in comparison to all of the coversations they must have had together as friends over 5 years.

In my opinion, it was clear that they had spoken on disagreeable issues before, and Lily just reached a point of no return. I feel she did attempt to help Snape see the light, but he elected to remain steadfast to his dark arts interests and acts - as JKR indicated. That is why I believe in the end she made the best choice in ending the friendship. I think it would have devolved into something very unpleasant for both of them if she had not. That was my impression from the reading. I respect your opinion if you see it distinctly. :)

One of the faults with DH is that, considering its length, there's still loads of information missing. Some of that we can fill in using educated guesswork and common sense, but other things need more detail to be given to them. I'd like to see more episodes in Lily's life - specifically episodes she shares with Snape. They wouldn't have stayed friends for so long if there wasn't something strong keeping them together, considering all the problems they started to encounter.

I wish we saw more memories between Lily and Snape's Sorting and the disagreement they had following the Werewolf incident. If nothing else, it would be nice to see times when they were just happy to be in each other's company, without any of the tension that we see in so many of the memories. I personally believe there would be occasions when you'd see Lily showing courage in standing up for Snape. Maybe since these would tend to be times in the Gryffindor common room where there would be more need to defend a Slytherin friend this is why we don't see Snape's memories of such things? I hope the proposed encyclopedia that JKR is going to write has some good, detailed biographies. This could shed some more light on character relationships.

I wish we saw more memories between Lily and Snape's Sorting and the disagreement they had following the Werewolf incident. If nothing else, it would be nice to see times when they were just happy to be in each other's company, without any of the tension that we see in so many of the memories. I personally believe there would be occasions when you'd see Lily showing courage in standing up for Snape. Maybe since these would tend to be times in the Gryffindor common room where there would be more need to defend a Slytherin friend this is why we don't see Snape's memories of such things? I hope the proposed encyclopedia that JKR is going to write has some good, detailed biographies. This could shed some more light on character relationships.
I think it's implied in the canon that since Snape and Lily were "best friends," with all the meaning behind that, then they had good times together, especially as younger children.

For instance, unlike Harry, Snape probably never stayed at Hogwarts over holidays, since he could go back home and spend time with Lily. That is something Harry never had - a friend while at home. What a gift! :) I'm sure that's why he could never forget her - she was always there during the summer, Christmas, and Easter holidays. I can imagine that Christmas at the Snape's wasn't much fun, but Lily's family would have had the Christmas tree, presents, and everything.

So Snape would have that experience through the Evans family, just as Harry does through the Weasleys.

Black Adder: I don't really see Lily as negatively as you do, but I agree on points, such as Lily being much more temperamental than we expected before Book 7.

One point you bring up goes back to the first part of my post - the Weasley connection.

Snape is killed by the same snake that also attacked Mr. Weasley.

Snape is attracted to the same sort of "fiery woman, also - with the red hair as well. :)

It's rather interesting that every time Snape looked at the Weasley children, he might think about what he lost. Harry had Lily's eyes, but the Weasleys also resemble her - as well as her "cheekiness" which the Weasley kids have in abundance. If Lily and Snape had ever gotten together, they could have had red-haired children, certainly, so it's a reminder of what Snape never had.

Anyway, my point is, the Weasleys and Lily represent similar things to both Harry and Snape - love, family, motherhood, protection (and red hair).

Since Snape and Harry both lost Lily, it's poignant that the Weasley family becomes a symbol of all they lost out on, and that they never had except as outsiders.

One of the faults with DH is that, considering its length, there's still loads of information missing. Some of that we can fill in using educated guesswork and common sense, but other things need more detail to be given to them. I'd like to see more episodes in Lily's life - specifically episodes she shares with Snape. They wouldn't have stayed friends for so long if there wasn't something strong keeping them together, considering all the problems they started to encounter.

I personally believe a good part of the strength of the friendship was due to it beginning when they were so young, and Snape being the one to introduce Lily to the wizarding world.

I have a lot of childhood friends that differ greatly from myself, but we still get along quite well because we share childhood memories. It's the kind of friendship that, even as you grow older and grow different, you defend it because it's hard to let go. That's how I see it with Lily and Snape. They could have been quite different people who, had they met when they were say in their fourth year, might not have gotten along at all. But because they met at a younger age, when things like the war did not get so involved in their lives, they found much more common ground, and those experiences would have carried their friendship through many years.

As they matured and started to understand the differences between Voldemort and those against him (well, I don't think Snape really did see the differences, cause he was blinded by his love of the Dark Arts), their friendship started to falter. It became an important issue with both of them - Snape wanted to become a Death Eater, right in the action with Voldemort, and Lily wanted to fight against those people. Those kinds of differences just can't be overlooked for the sake of childhood memories. If Snape had called Lily a Mudblood years before, when they were not so adamant about their positions in the war, I think things would have gone differently - she might have forgiven him sooner or later. As it is, it was the last straw for Lily.


One point you bring up goes back to the first part of my post - the Weasley connection.

Snape is killed by the same snake that also attacked Mr. Weasley.

Snape is attracted to the same sort of "fiery woman, also - with the red hair as well.

I think the connection really ends there... I could not, personally, see Snape becoming a loving father like Mr Weasley. I could not see him having children at all, actually - the way he treats all the kids in his class (not just those who remind him of his enemy or his lost love) makes me think he really did not like children. Mr Weasley, on the other hand, seems to love them, and sometimes acts like one himself (lol) - he has seven kids, which is quite a bit, and he's been seen as one of the best fathers in the series. I tend to find more similarities between James and Arthur, actually, but that's not for this thread.

I think the connection really ends there... I could not, personally, see Snape becoming a loving father like Mr Weasley. I could not see him having children at all, actually - the way he treats all the kids in his class (not just those who remind him of his enemy or his lost love) makes me think he really did not like children.
But part of Snape's bitterness is what he never had because he lost Lily to James. Things might have been totally different for him if he had dumped Mulciber and the other Slytherins and changed at the age of 15.

Part of his remorse about Lily is that he is oh-so-aware of what he lost by his own actions. That's why the "mudblood" incident is his "worst" memory - absolutely. That was the day alot of his hope died, I think. He was too young to see it then, but in retrospect it was the turning point of his whole life, becaue Lily went on to date and then marry James. Everything else follows from that.

Part of his remorse about Lily is that he is oh-so-aware of what he lost by his own actions. That's why the "mudblood" incident is his "worst" memory - absolutely. That was the day alot of his hope died, I think. He was too young to see it then, but in retrospect it was the turning point of his whole life, becaue Lily went on to date and then marry James. Everything else follows from that.

I agree it was Snape's worst memory because it was the moment he lost Lily as a friend. I would say that although James started dating Lily in 7th, the two likely became friendlier from the end of 5th and all through 6th because James wouldn't have that element of jealousy behind his actions. I think that would temper some of his egotistical moves and also Lily had pointed all of that out to him in SWM.

Snape likely realized even then the total consequences of what he had done. I realize he was young, but he apparently still retained feelings for Lily, so he would continue to notice her and see what she was up to in the main. I would imagine in a way it was freeing for both Lily and Snape. She no longer had to make excuses to her friends, speak to Snape in negative terms about his dark arts interests or listen to his angry remarks about the Marauders. Snape too no longer had to justify his interests or try to convince Lily that the Marauders and James were worse than he or his friends. I truly believe they were both a lot happier in general - well maybe except when Snape saw James and Lily together, but apart from that, Snape would find himself free to pursue whatever he liked without having to answer to anyone. And Lily appeared to have lots of friends and interests too - so in the end I think it was all right for them.

I believe Snape only allowed his emotions to foster again toward Lily when she was threatened. Prior to that, I think he was trying to forget her - failing, but trying. Lily I think let go of the relationship altogether, realizing that it had been unhealthy due to Snape's connections to the dark arts.

I don't see the Weasley connection, but I can respect your idea. :)

I'm sure Lily knew plenty of charms - why not? I see no canon against it. And if her wand was good for charms, and Ollivander ought to know, she was probably good at them, just as James was obviously good at Transfiguration, because his wand was good at that.Actually, I'm sure she was good at most magical skills. We've been told she was quite talented. But it's a leap to go from her wand being good at Charms (a single line in a book published ten years earlier) to an off-the-page imagining about her practicing Charms with Snape. When did she do that? Certainly not during the summer when she wouldn't be permitted to practice Charms. We've seen how hard it was for Harry and Hermione to find practice space, and they had the tactic approval of Flitwick and McGonagall in GoF. BTW, if she was good at Charms, why did she need to practice? Other than Neville's poor aim, most students seem to pick up Expelliarmus quite easily.

All I'm doing here is trying to keep the focus on canon and not fanon.

I think that was an eye opener for Lily in many ways. Note her words to James: "You are as bad as he is." Snape has taken a steep drop in her eyes - his dark arts interests were one thing, but his depreciation of her as a person is another. It is one thing to have what she sees as personal faults but it is another to look down upon your friend - who days before you insisted was your 'best friend'. While James, for all of his faults, has appreciated her character/person. Lily, at that point, had to have felt deeply betrayed; she came to Snape's defense and then had to be defended by the person she was defending him against.
I think this is too harsh on Lily. If you remember, she had already argued with Snape about his friends' use of the Dark Arts. I don't think she was only reacting to the use of the words "filthy little Mudblood", although naturally they must have hurt her deeply. Lily has already shown that she can successfully differentiate between randomly hexing people and being evil, so I really don't think she would consider a personal insult to be worse than Dark magic! The racist name-calling was simply the last straw - the proof that Snape really was well on the way to becoming a Death Eater and beyond any help she could give him!

There’s that word “understandable” again. Sure it is, but was it just? The Ministry of Magic doesn’t hold underage wizards or witches accountable for involuntary magic. Wishing harm on someone and once in a great while it happens (like when Harry wished harm on Aunt Marge) is not the same as pulling out a wand and pointing it, knowing that it will happen. Sev, in fact, had just got through explaining that to Lily. If Lily had truly understood what he had told her, and if Lily had understood that Sev didn’t have the kind of control that she herself had, would Lily have been as angry at Sev? Perhaps she would have been trying to explain to Petunia instead that Sev couldn’t control what had happened. We don’t really know.
Again, she was nine years old and completely new to the magical world. None of the nine year olds I know would have reacted differently to Lily, except for the ones who would have started a fight about it rather than simply walking away!In breaking off the friendship, she has concluded that Sev--as a 5th year 16 year old--wants to become a Death Eater, without ever having asked him if this is what he is thinking, or listening to his thoughts and feelings about the subject.

Understandable, perhaps, but not very fair. Would you want a friend who was always jumping to the worst conclusions about you, without ever asking for or listening to your side of the story?

I see no reason to assume that they never discussed this in all their years of friendship. In fact, we've seen one argument between them in which Snape dismisses attacking a fellow student with Dark magic as "a laugh, that's all".Look at how Harry’s friends defend and support him. They don’t make excuses and apologies for him. Making excuses or apologies for a friend is condescending, in my opinion.
Perhaps what Snape and his friends were doing went beyond anything that could be defended, and making excuses was the best she could do for him? Without knowing what she was making excuses for, it's impossible to tell. The only thing we know for sure she had to make excuses about was the use of Dark magic against Mary McDonald. What "argument in support” could Lily use about that?

But it's a leap to go from her wand being good at Charms (a single line in a book published ten years earlier) to an off-the-page imagining about her practicing Charms with Snape. When did she do that? Certainly not during the summer when she wouldn't be permitted to practice Charms.
Why not? We know that Lily practiced transfiguration during holidays, since Petunia says so: “Oh, she got a letter just like that and disappeared off to that — that school — and came home every holiday with her pockets full of frog-spawn, turning teacups into rats.” (PS/SS, chapter 4) In fact, it's only logical that Petunia saw Lily doing that at Snape's house, since it's unlikely magic would be permitted anywhere else in the neighborhood. :D

We've seen how hard it was for Harry and Hermione to find practice space, and they had the tactic approval of Flitwick and McGonagall in GoF.
Perhaps practice space was easier to come by during Snape and Lily's time. After all, the Marauders were able to become Animagi under everyone's noses.

BTW, if she was good at Charms, why did she need to practice? Other than Neville's poor aim, most students seem to pick up Expelliarmus quite easily.
If Charms is so easy, why is it necessary for Flitwick to teach a class in it? Why wasn't the whole class immediately able to move the pillows around the room during that levitation lesson of Flitwick's? Being good and having a natural talent at something doesn't mean one doesn't have to practice it to become better. Harry is talented at flying a broomstick. Does that mean he was as good at flying as it was possible to be in PS/SS? I highly doubt it - imagine being at the height of your talent at age 11! :lol: Whether it's athletics, art, or academics, everyone needs to practice to improve.

Again, she was nine years old and completely new to the magical world. None of the nine year olds I know would have reacted differently to Lily, except for the ones who would have started a fight about it rather than simply walking away!
How many 9-year-olds do you know? I would think that there would be a wide range of reactions depending on the personality of the 9-year-old. Lily's personality makes her quick to judge.

The only thing we know for sure she had to make excuses about was the use of Dark magic against Mary McDonald. What "argument in support” could Lily use about that?
Why would Lily have to make an excuse for Snape about that? :huh: Lily asking if Snape knew about it implies that he wasn't even there when Mulciber did whatever he did to Mary MacDonald. Certainly, Snape didn't do anything to her himself.

But part of Snape's bitterness is what he never had because he lost Lily to James. Things might have been totally different for him if he had dumped Mulciber and the other Slytherins and changed at the age of 15.

Things might have been different, but we're not sure of that. Snape was interested in the Dark Arts, not his Slytherin buddies. He was already into the Dark Arts and was determined to be a Slytherin, even before he came to Hogwarts. He already had fixed views about muggles and muggleborn.

For instance, unlike Harry, Snape probably never stayed at Hogwarts over holidays, since he could go back home and spend time with Lily. That is something Harry never had - a friend while at home. What a gift! :) I'm sure that's why he could never forget her - she was always there during the summer, Christmas, and Easter holidays. I can imagine that Christmas at the Snape's wasn't much fun, but Lily's family would have had the Christmas tree, presents, and everything.

So Snape would have that experience through the Evans family, just as Harry does through the Weasleys.

I don't think so. Petunia disapproved of Snape completely, and Lily was trying to salvage her relationship with her sister. It's unlikely that Lily would invite Snape home for Christmas, and intentionally upset Petunia. Plus, it's not like Snape never had a place to go to. We're also shown memories of Snape sitting alone in his room and shooting down flies. There's also the fact that his mother likes him. It's not like the Harry-Dursley situation, where Harry was distinctly unwelcome. The Snape residence was unpleasant, but I doubt that Snape was unwelcome there.

There’s that word “understandable” again. Sure it is, but was it just? The Ministry of Magic doesn’t hold underage wizards or witches accountable for involuntary magic. Wishing harm on someone and once in a great while it happens (like when Harry wished harm on Aunt Marge) is not the same as pulling out a wand and pointing it, knowing that it will happen. Sev, in fact, had just got through explaining that to Lily. If Lily had truly understood what he had told her, and if Lily had understood that Sev didn’t have the kind of control that she herself had, would Lily have been as angry at Sev? Perhaps she would have been trying to explain to Petunia instead that Sev couldn’t control what had happened. We don’t really know.

At this time, for Lily, it's a choice between her new friend, whom she doesn't really know, and her own sister. Lily had just been told that magic was in fact real, that it was a controlled, regulated power. Her own experience also tells her as much. Thus, why should she conclude that Snape didn't do it, especially when Petunia had just insulted him? It's rather far-fetched to assume that Lily was prone to jumping to conclusions at this early age, from just one incident. Lily took a guess based on her own understanding of how magic worked, and Snape's guilty face confirmed it for her.

As a teen she jumps to the conclusion that the story of the Tunnel Incident--from whatever her source--was all she needed to hear, without hearing Sev’s side of the story or asking him any questions.


Again, we know that Lily's version was the correct one. We'e no reason at all to assume that Lily was jumping to a conclusion that her friend was not being truthful. She had been friends with him for years, and knew of his ongoing 'quest' to get James and Co. discredited and expelled. Snape has a tendency to follow them to get them in trouble. Why should she assume that Snape had suddenly become unbiased about James, when he'd demonstrated otherwise for years? Lily's speaking from her own experiences and understanding of Snape.

In breaking off the friendship, she has concluded that Sev--as a 5th year 16 year old--wants to become a Death Eater, without ever having asked him if this is what he is thinking, or listening to his thoughts and feelings about the subject.

Yet again, Lily is right on the money. I feel that your post is failing to take into account the fact that Lily knew Snape very, very well. She knew of his fascination with the Dark Arts, of the company he kept, his idea of fun, his opinion on muggles etc.

Again, Snape's lack of response tells her that she has hit upon the truth. It's not the first time that Lily has caught Snape lying to her. Why is it that Lily, the one who was publicly insulted, betrayed by her supposed 'best friend', is expected to be understanding and sympathetic? Lily is reacting like any normal person. Her demeanour suggests that she has been thinking about it for a while. Snape had been waiting there for a while, after all.

Understandable, perhaps, but not very fair. Would you want a friend who was always jumping to the worst conclusions about you, without ever asking for or listening to your side of the story?

The difference is that Lily was not jumping to the worst conclusions, but using her own personal experiences, and her understanding of Snape to reach a rational, logical conclusion. The fact that all of her assumptions about Snape were true tells us that Lily knew how to discern the truth.

So, if I understand you correctly, you agree that Hermione is a strong character for refusing to be furious or lash back at Kreacher. Shouldn’t the standard be the same for the treatment of other humans? Don’t humans deserve the same kind of attempt at patient understanding as for a house-elf? I’m not saying Lily shouldn’t be angry about Severus’s racist Mudblood remark or the rejection of her help. But the way in which someone expresses their anger says a lot about them IMO.

There's the fact that Kreacher wasn't Hermione's best friend, that he didn't insult her in front of the whole school, that Hermione had a good understanding of house-elf behaviour, and that Snape was not brought up to see Lily as a mudblood. Kreacher was old, half-insane and set in his ways for years, because he didn't know any different. Snape had been 'best friends' with Lily for a long time, and knew better. Thus, how exactly can Lily's reaction be compated to Hermione's?

What about Dumbledore who is always courteous, though firm, with everyone, including his enemies? Who gives second chances. Do you think he should go stomping about, losing his temper and returning nasty insults because he’s dealing with other humans who are responsible for their choices?

Dumbledore doesn't need to do that, because he radiates power and authority with his mere presence. Everyone knows that Dumbledore is fully capable of following through on his words. And there's also the fact that Dumbledore has seen a lot of the world, at nearly 150 years old. He had made mistakes when he was Lily's age.

I would say both (or all three…). You’re right, young Severus was not very good at communicating, and probably was not much in touch with his inner feelings and motivations. That is also not unusual, especially in a young male. But surely Lily knew Severus well enough to know he was not very articulate? She claims he is her best friend. That is why I am put off by her impatience with his difficulties with speech. I guess I can relate to him a bit in those moments because I also am not always able to express myself verbally, and so I do find her impatience and even “contempt” (as described in the last memory) as quite unkind.

We're shown, in the prior conversation, that Snape's tactics include switching topics when things get difficult, and completely ignoring Lily when she says something he doesn't want to hear about. (Ignoring Lily's scripture about Mulciber)

The question here is, Why does Lily have to listen at all? Why should she hear him out? What did Snape do to earn that? From what we're shown, their relationship had never been really 'true'. Snape tended to tune her out whenever she said things that he didn't approve of. Lily had been putting up with stuff like that for years.

Snape knew perfectly well that what he did was unforgivable. He had no reasonable explanation for what had happened. I mean, what was he going to say? That he did it because he wanted to look good in front of his DE buddies? Plus, Lily seems to be guessing everything perfectly well. Again, a mark of just how well Lily undersood Snape.

First off, another one of those things we don’t know is just what her friends were complaining about. Kids, as we know, can be very cruel about all kinds of things. We do know that the Marauders made fun of Severus’s big nose and greasy hair. Others may have made fun of his hand-me-down clothes or books, or his having trouble speaking, or simply that he was a Slytherin. Notice that in those two memories, Lily never once accuses him of indulging in Dark Magic. Her complaint about his hanging around with Mulciber and Avery and using the term “Mudblood” strikes me as a relatively recent development. I think most of the “excuses” she was making for him were regarding more personal attacks.

Lily's friends include 'Mary', which could well be the 'Mary MacDonald' on whom Avery and Mulciber were using Dark Magic on. Thus, I'd say that we have a good idea of what her friends were complaining about. There's also the fact that Lily mentions that Snape calls everyone of her birth mudblood. So, what we have on the text is that Lily's friends complained about Snape's usage of Dark Arts and his racist slurs against them. There's no mention of his physical appearance at all. It would also be rather petty of Lily to bring up something like that in that conversation.

Look at how Harry’s friends defend and support him. They don’t make excuses and apologies for him. Making excuses or apologies for a friend is condescending, in my opinion.

Look at what his friends have to defend him for. Ron and Hermione never have to 'make excuses' for Harry, because he doesn't do anything that his friends would need to make excuses for. In Snape's case, however, the offenses were Dark Magic and racial slurs. Hardly something that Lily could 'defend'. All she could do was to make excuses for him. That can't have been easy for her to do either. She'd have felt like a heel when she criticised James for being a bully, knowing full well that her own best friend was taking part in worse things.

There's also the fact that Lily does think a lot less of him now. He's lost all of her respect, and he's also insulted him in front of the whole school. She sounded condescending during that whole interlude, because she intended it to be. Snape no longer deserved any respect, as far as Lily as concerned.

You know what I've noticed. There has been so much blaming Lily going around and claiming that she wasn't fair or being a proper friend to Snape during and directly after SWM. I think there is a certain factor that tends to be overlooked: the fact that Lily likely no longer felt safe around Snape. I have a ton of empathy for Lily when she pretty much broke it off with Snape and I just realized the safety factor today. I mean, some tend to see it as such a self-righteous, inconsistent action but...her best friend didn't even consider escaping a path that praises people like Lily to basically be eradicated when he had the chance. After all this time and likely her suspicions of Snape supporting such a path, is it so uncalled for for her to be scared?

I agree completely. That would go with what we're shown, Lily's shock and disbelief when Snape calls her a mudblood. That was when Lily stopped fooling herself, and start inspecting Snape's actions in retrospect.

Ugh, Snape messed up majorly and it's incredibly sad :( But why can't we accept that and have to blame Lily moreso than Snape for the downfall of their friendship.

True.

I just want to add something here - I think it's important to note that at that time the Death Eaters probably hadn't reached their highest peaks of evil and megalomania, and possibly the name "Death Eater" hadn't yet started to invoke the horror it did later.

Unlikely. Voldemort had been active for a long time. To quote,
"You can't blame them," said Dumbledore gently. "We've had precious little to celebrate for eleven years."
This was in 1981. So, That would mean that Voldemort had been really active, that they'd been at war, since 1970. Which means that by the time Lily went to Hogwarts, in 1971, Voldemort had already been active for a year, and people were already living in fear. Five more years pass before Lily accuses Snape of aspiring to be a Death Eater. In any case, the disgust and contempt that Lily expresses when she says that, tells us a lot about how bad it was.

I'm basing this on Regulus's enthusiasm about them and his later retreat - when he saw what it was actually about, by Sirius's account. So if Regulus was repulsed after he had ben enchanted, that could possibly mean that the whole picture of Voldemort's society wasn't accessible to the outsiders and people didn't exactly know what it was all about, as they did later, when he showed his true colours. So neither Severus, nor Lily knew what he was really trying to get himself into. That's just a possibility though.

Not necessarily, IMO. It's more plausible that Regulus found out, like Malfoy did, that actually commiting the atrocities was not something that he could live with.

Enlarging someone’s head? Choking someone with soap bubbles? Letting them drop on their heads? I have trouble seeing a solid line of demarcation between Dark spells and other spells used in twisted ways.

Enlarging someone's head is no worse than feeding them a ton-tongue toffee or a canary cream. It's not like an allergic reaction or anything, it's just inconvenient, and awkward. It's pretty benign by Wizarding World standards. You're right that there's no solid line of demarcation, it's all about intent, and morality. The same goes for Levicorpus as well. It's not shown that anyone falls on their head and is hurt. It is pretty nasty, yeah, but then, it was invented by Snape himself, and he intended it to be so.

But more importantly, what does Lily gain by defending James and Sirius? My opinion is that she loses her moral authority by defending them, she loses her power to persuade Severus. Suppose instead of entering into the game of comparing housemates and nit-picking relative bad behavior, that she had instead agreed that ALL hexing-people-for-fun is wrong? She could have then asked Sev if he found it funny when James and Sirius hexed him? Then how must Mary or someone else feel when it is done to them? Is that really a good source of fun or entertainment?

Lily makes it quite clear that she doesn't approve of James. That she thinks he's a toerag. How is that defending him? :err:

Lily tells Snape that the marauders don't use Dark Magic, because that's what they were discussing - Mulciber and Avery using Dark Magic on Lily's friend Mary Macdonald. She's trying to tell him what it is that she finds creepy about them, why she disapproves of their 'bit of fun', and how it's different from what James does. Snape keeps changing the topic, until Lily insults James. After that, he doesn't even care what she's talking about.

Perhaps if she had agreed with him and removed his defense, listened to his concerns and had an honest, heartfelt conversation, then perhaps Severus would have listened to her, and they both would have heard each other.

We're shown that Lily does exactly that, but Snape had no interest in discussing the topic at all, and rapidly switches it to James's antics. When Lily tries to explain what exactly it is that she finds worrying about his friends, he doesn't even want to listen. How is that Lily's fault that Snape doesn't care what she thinks?

A good contrast would be when Harry first meets Luna Lovegood on the Hogwart’s Express in OotP. Ginny says simply, “She’s all right.”

I'd say that a bit of kookiness is far different from intentionally attacking a fellow student with Dark Magic.

For example, if Snape were already into the Dark Arts since before Hogwarts (as Sirius suggests), then why does Lily complain about him hanging out with Mulciber rather than complain about Sev’s own Dark Magic activities? And if she is the level-headed girl of good judgment that everyone assumes, then why has she been best friends all these years with this guy who is so much into the Dark Arts? The assumptions just don’t add up for me.

Because, Snape puts on a different persona when she's with Lily. Lily didn't realize how bad it was, and when she did, she didn't want to believe that her friend would do something like that. Snape is a whole different person with Lily, nothing like what we see him as in the rest of the books.

Well, see, I’m not so sure I agree that Lily was really all that compassionate and caring. What I see in the memories is that she had moments of kindness, but with the little we have, it’s hard for me to tell how deep it was.

Sorry, but I fail to see what you're attempting to prove here. Lily was only human. She made some mistakes and some bad judgements. So did everyone else. Personally, I feel that she should have been as strong as she was with Snape when she started hearing from her friends that he was bad news. She shouldn't have trusted him so implicitly. But, as far as the relationship is concerned, I feel that Lily was the one who put more into it. Snape saw their friendship as a stepping stone to becoming her love interest. He had come to think of her as being his from very early on, as is indicated by his imperiously ordering her to be in Slytherin.

I, like many fans, somewhat idealized Lily while reading the previous books, but was surprised by the depictions of both teen Lily and teen Sev in DH. Lily’s temper is what is most striking to me about her in The Prince’s Tale, and to be honest, Snape comes across to me as a little fawning and puppy-whipped. :whistle:

:lol: Well, I'd lost any such misconceptions after I saw her ripping into James and then delivering a stunning repartee to Snape in SWM. I never expected her to be faultless.

Teen Snape does come across as fawning and whipped when Lily gets angry with him. But, his behaviour with others was different, as Lily tells us later on. I was surprised that they were friends, because I didn't think that teen-Snape could actually be nice when he wanted to be.

But Lily’s kindness can turn on a dime.

I think that the appropriate word would be 'passionate'. :lol: And I honestly can't see what's wrong about her being capable of standing up for herself, and yet be compassionate.

One more thing that seems lacking. The talk outside the common room takes place late that night, hours after the attack on Severus and the insult. Plenty of time for Lily to calm down and decide how it is that she is going to break off her friendship with Severus.

IMO, the fact that Lily was cold and distant in that scene, instead of flaring p as she did with James, shows that she has thought this through. She mentions that she'd been making excuses for him for years, that her frineds could never understand why she even talked to him. That shows that Lily has been looking at Snape, and their friendship from a new angle.

I found oddly missing any mention of what their long friendship might have once meant to Lily. There seems missing for me any expression of hope that Severus would change and find a better way.

Quite. She has thought this through, and decided that she has had enough, that she can't continue fooling herself. She has decided that there is nothing more to be said. Personally, I can't blame her for it at all.

What we are having difficulty understanding is the (alleged by Lily when talking to Snape) difference between The Marauders' activities and the activities during fifth year of Snape's Slytherin friends.

The difference, as Lily states it, is that what the Slytherins did to her friend is not something that the Marauders would ever do. Thus, it has to be worse, and not something that one would usually consider to be a prank.

We know that the Marauders' activities nearly resulted in the deaths of two students fifth year, this is testified to by Severus as an adult, Dumbledore, Lupin as an adult, and not contradicted in any way by Sirius as an adult. Given the wide variety of characters who all agree about this alleged fact, I believe it is true.

Correction. Not the Marauders, but Sirius. Sirius's rivalry with Snape was intense and personal for some reason. If James or Remus had known about it in advance, they'd doubtless have forbidden him from doing it. As it is, it seems like something that Sirius would do - impulsive and stupid. I doubt that he really thought it over. All the characters except for Snape, agree that it was a schoolyard prank. It was meant to give him a scare, not get him killed. It wasn't premeditated.

We are not even told about any life-threatening activities by Severus's friends. Mulciber 'tried' something 'evil' on Mary, according to Lily. I am afraid I just don't see why that is worse that a 'prank' that endangered two lives.

Well, I'm sure that Snape's friends made up for any lack of life-threatening activities at school when they signed up as DEs later on. :p They're Slytherins, they wouldn't do anything that could get themselves thrown in jail, not with proof.

The argument that there is a difference is essentially circular - the only evidence we have of this is that Lily says so. And from that, it is suggested we conclude that Lily was right. We are not given evidence that Snape or his friends, at the point in fifth year when the conversation occured, had used on fellow students Dark Magic more serious than the jinxes, hexes, and curses used by the Marauders. It seems to me that canon fails to shed light on the difference if, indeed, one existed.

I feel that we should consider that the Slytherins who were accused of using Dark Magic by Lily turned out to be Death Eaters later in life. Thus, why is it that we shouldn't take Lily at her word? Has any character, except for another 'aspiring-DE slash Dark Arts afficionado', contested her claim?

If the Marauders were as bad as the aspiring DEs, then why are they considered to be just 'troublemakers' by the faculty and practically everyone who knew them? Why did Dumbledore forgive Sirius and ensure Snape's silence, if it had really been attempted murder? Thus, we have no reason at all to conclude that it was simply Lily's opinion that it was Dark Magic.

Snape insists James died 'too arrogant to believe he could be mistaken in Black'. We do not see adult James. I guess I am right, then, and James's swollen head (Sirius and Lily both insist it was so) never did shrink. ;)

Again, canon tells us otherwise. The only person who seems to think that James was arrogant as an adult is Snape, who has a vested interest in descrediting James.

Used well, this technique enhances rather than detracts from our enjoyment of a story, because there remains something for us to think about.
Sure. But I doubt that every statement made in the book is to be treated as such, no matter how enjoyable the resulting story is.

So, in the end, Lily says Snape's friends are worse than the Marauders. Snape disagrees. My own view coincides with The Black Adder's in this instance - both little gangs are wrong, engaging in cruel, hurtful, and dangerous behavior towards other students. On this issue, Sev and Lily are on equal footing, and her attempt to assume the high ground fails to impress me. I do not believe she has it.

The problem I see is that Snape makes no attempt whatsoever to justify his friends actions, except for, "James does it tooo!". Lily's first question is "What does James Potter have to do with anything?", and she's right. Lily wasn't comparing them, she was saying that she disapproved of what Mulciber and Avery did. She agreed that what the Marauders did was bad, but what the Slyherins did to her friend was far worse.

To make a comparison, let's assume that the Marauders used a leg-locker curse on someone, causing them to have to hop to the class, much to the amusement of the students. Would it be the same thing if they did the same thing to someone running down a staircase? In both cases, it was a simple leglocker curse. But, would you say it was the same in both cases, even though the second victim fell down and cracked his skull open? That's the kind of difference I see when Lily tells Snape that it was Dark Magic.

BTW, if she was good at Charms, why did she need to practice? Other than Neville's poor aim, most students seem to pick up Expelliarmus quite easily.
If Charms is so easy, why is it necessary for Flitwick to teach a class in it? Why wasn't the whole class immediately able to move the pillows around the room during that levitation lesson of Flitwick's? Being good and having a natural talent at something doesn't mean one doesn't have to practice it to become better. Harry is talented at flying a broomstick.
I don't see why Ollivander would say that about Lily's wand in Book One if she wasn't good at charms.

In all the time I've been here - 4 years - it's always been accepted that Lily's wand was good for charms, and therefore, she was good at charms. I see no reason to debate this. Ollivander knows his wands.

And actually, there is canon that Snape became good at Charms also, since he does a mighty fine "Expelliarmus." So I see no reason why Snape and Lily couldn't have practiced together, while they were still friends.

I see it this way -
Snape taught Lily Potions.
Lily taught Snape Charms. :)

That works for me.

Why not? We know that Lily practiced transfiguration during holidays, since Petunia says so: “Oh, she got a letter just like that and disappeared off to that — that school — and came home every holiday with her pockets full of frog-spawn, turning teacups into rats.” (PS/SS, chapter 4) In fact, it's only logical that Petunia saw Lily doing that at Snape's house, since it's unlikely magic would be permitted anywhere else in the neighborhood. :D

Why would Snape take Lily to his hated home? Doesn't make sense. And, we have it straight from the author that Petunis was exaggerating about that, and also that Lily got some underage magic notices of her own. Besides, 'The Trace' would ensure that she'd be caught doing magic wherever she was.

Perhaps practice space was easier to come by during Snape and Lily's time. After all, the Marauders were able to become Animagi under everyone's noses.

Yeah, and it took three years. The marauders also wrote a map for Hogwarts. Snape didn't.

If Charms is so easy, why is it necessary for Flitwick to teach a class in it? Why wasn't the whole class immediately able to move the pillows around the room during that levitation lesson of Flitwick's? Being good and having a natural talent at something doesn't mean one doesn't have to practice it to become better. Harry is talented at flying a broomstick. Does that mean he was as good at flying as it was possible to be in PS/SS? I highly doubt it - imagine being at the height of your talent at age 11! :lol: Whether it's athletics, art, or academics, everyone needs to practice to improve.

Not Hermione. :lol:

The point being, Expelliarmus is simple enough that most students know it, and also considered to be a rather weak spell which can be blocked. If it hadn't been for the brother wands, Harry would have been toast in GoF, expelliarmus or not.

How many 9-year-olds do you know? I would think that there would be a wide range of reactions depending on the personality of the 9-year-old. Lily's personality makes her quick to judge.

And we can conclude this from what, one time that she guessed correctly that it was the wizard standing next to her, the one who'd been shouting at her sister she'd been prepared to welcome, who caused a branch to drop on 'Tuney's ' head? The branch dropped when Tuney had just asked Snape if he was wearing his mum's blouse. What else could it have been? A coincidence? It was a logical conclusion, reached by the simple process of elimination.

Why would Lily have to make an excuse for Snape about that? :huh: Lily asking if Snape knew about it implies that he wasn't even there when Mulciber did whatever he did to Mary MacDonald. Certainly, Snape didn't do anything to her himself.

Snape certainly knew what they tried to do to Mary, and thought that it was a laugh. I'd say that he was there. He is their friend, after all.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

--I think that he was reluctant to approach her because he was shy, and it appears that he seem to be an outcast too from the way Petunia treats him. So he wasn't sure how lily was going to act toward him. I'm sure he was happy to know that there was another magical kid in his neighborhood. I don't think he would be interested in her if not for magic atleast until later years

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

--I think Lily at first accepts him because she is interested in finding about her magical powers, and here is a kid who can tell her all about it. Then she gets to know him, and their friendship develops from there.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

--I think at first it was equal friendship until it crushed in 4th-5th year. His role was as informative. He was able to tell her about magic and the magical world, and that she is not abnormal or freak. She was his only friend, and is somone he can talk to, play with, study with and etc.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

--Hogwart gave Lily new friends, and she was still his only friend. I think these situations always puts strain on relationships. So she might not have been spending as much time with him as she would have if she didn't had other friends, but I believe they did work to maintain it. I think they worked together in potions and other classses, and they might have did their homework together, and stuff specially on the first 3 years.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

--I think Lily observed all the prejudice that gryffindors had about slytherin, and Sev observed all the prejudices that slytherins had about gryffindors. Whenever that happens people start to have doubts based on all these prejudices that they get, and start wondering wheather their friend is accepting it or not. So LIly and Sev might both be having those doubts, and whenever they had agruments about eachother's house they might be getting in their own head confirmation that their friend is accepting it. They most certainly would not have changed in the same way if they were sorted into the other two houses. Their friendship would have developed in more positive ways if they were sorted in the same house granting that that house not be gryffindor or slytherin.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

--I don't think there was only one reason their friendship didn't work out. I believe that it was going to breakup one way or another.
Reasons why:
-She had other friends that were not friends with him, and he didn't had any other firend. This puts constrain on a relationship.
-She developed attraction to James, and Sev was not about to except that specially considering that those two hated eachother. So Lily would not be able to have both. She would have to choose one or the other.
-House prejudices came into play by making them not see the wrongs of their own house.
-Sev hanging around with Mulciber and Avery.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

From what I get from canon, Lily seem to have problems with Mulciber and Avery. Sev could have stop hanging out with them. Sev had problem that Lily was not seeing all the things the marauders were about, and not listening to him about what really happen in the "brank" warewolf incident. Lily could have listen to Sev more, or get the whole picture before she jumps into conclusions. And of course lily not falling for James. If everything was going sweet between Lily and Sev but she start dating James, the relationship would still end.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

They would have lifelong friendship at the very least. I think they might have romantic relationship if the situations were different.

We're taking a cool down break.

Okay let's see if we can treat each other like human beings.

Why would Snape take Lily to his hated home?
So they could have fun with magic during holidays. :)

Besides, 'The Trace' would ensure that she'd be caught doing magic wherever she was.I don't think it works that way. The "Trace" to detect underaged magic only works in areas where magic isn't expected and magic would have been expected in Snape's home: the home of a witch.
Yeah, and it took three years. The marauders also wrote a map for Hogwarts. Snape didn't.So, then, I assume that you agree that the Marauders secretly and illegally became Animagi. Therefore, they were able to find space in Hogwarts for that activity outside of class. Therefore, it's not unreasonable to think that Snape and Lily could have found space in Hogwarts to do Charms together.
Not Hermione. :lol:Yes, even Hermione needs to practice. :)
And we can conclude this from what, one time that she guessed correctly that it was the wizard standing next to her, the one who'd been shouting at her sister she'd been prepared to welcome, who caused a branch to drop on 'Tuney's ' head? The branch dropped when Tuney had just asked Snape if he was wearing his mum's blouse. What else could it have been? A coincidence? It was a logical conclusion, reached by the simple process of elimination.It was a logical conclusion that Snape caused it to happen, not that he intended to harm Petunia. Lily was very quick to judge him for the worse.
Snape certainly knew what they tried to do to Mary, and thought that it was a laugh. I'd say that he was there. He is their friend, after all.There is no canon evidence that Snape was there or that he had anything to do with it; and Lily's words imply that he was not there and that he did not have anything to do with it. Snape was Lily's friend, too, but he obviously wasn't always with her.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy
I think that was an eye opener for Lily in many ways. Note her words to James: "You are as bad as he is." Snape has taken a steep drop in her eyes - his dark arts interests were one thing, but his depreciation of her as a person is another. It is one thing to have what she sees as personal faults but it is another to look down upon your friend - who days before you insisted was your 'best friend'. While James, for all of his faults, has appreciated her character/person. Lily, at that point, had to have felt deeply betrayed; she came to Snape's defense and then had to be defended by the person she was defending him against.

I think this is too harsh on Lily. If you remember, she had already argued with Snape about his friends' use of the Dark Arts. I don't think she was only reacting to the use of the words "filthy little Mudblood", although naturally they must have hurt her deeply. Lily has already shown that she can successfully differentiate between randomly hexing people and being evil, so I really don't think she would consider a personal insult to be worse than Dark magic! The racist name-calling was simply the last straw - the proof that Snape really was well on the way to becoming a Death Eater and beyond any help she could give him!

I think you misunderstood me or pulled my quote by accident. I was defending Lily :lol:

I agree with you completely on this point. I don't think that she considered it worse, I just meant she knew of the dark arts interest previous to the insult - the latter was something she hadn't expected at all from Snape with respect to her - so all of it together simply culminated in the big finish and she called the relationship to a halt. Basically what you said. :)

Originally Posted by anabel
The only thing we know for sure she had to make excuses about was the use of Dark magic against Mary McDonald. What "argument in support” could Lily use about that?

Why would Lily have to make an excuse for Snape about that? :huh: Lily asking if Snape knew about it implies that he wasn't even there when Mulciber did whatever he did to Mary MacDonald. Certainly, Snape didn't do anything to her himself.

I believe this incident would occur in a case where one of Lily's friends said: "How can you hang around Snape? He is friends with Mulciber and Avery and you saw what they did to Mary McDonald! - and I've seen Snape throw dark curses too!"

Well in such a case, Lily would be hard pressed to make an argument in support of Snape. However, she would try to excuse his behavior in order to justify her continued friendship with Snape. For example she might say that "Snape was a roommate of Mulciber and Avery (or housemate) and the two were a bad influence and that she is trying to help him see that." And she was trying to help Snape (although I don't know about Avery and Mulciber being a bad influence - that was just an example).

So that is how it would happen. Lily would make excuses for being Snape's friend in light of his interest in the dark arts, the activities of he and his friends and his budding interest in Voldemort - perhaps even his stealth activities in relation to following the Marauders around. The only other alternatives she would have would be to lie and say that she approved of his interests, activities and friends in that regard or say she knew of them and didn't care. But that is not indicative of Lily's character as portrayed in the canon in my opinion (lying to her friends). Thus she simply made excuses for Snape's behavior.

Lily said that she made excuses for Snape and I believe her. However, although it was stated that "we know for sure" Lily had to make excuses for the Dark Magic used against Mary MacDonald, I disagree - Snape had nothing to do with that. Therefore, we don't know exactly what Snape did to make Lily feel she needed to make excuses for him.

I believe this incident would occur in a case where one of Lily's friends said: "How can you hang around Snape? He is friends with Mulciber and Avery and you saw what they did to Mary McDonald! - and I've seen Snape throw dark curses too!"

But doesn't Lily say people have been asking her about why she is friends with Snape for "years"? That's peer pressure, if you ask me, but even people like Hermione can fall into that, such as when she told Harry he could "do better" than Luna Lovegood, though she barely knew Luna. (Later in DH Hermione is as worried about Luna as anyone, which shows that knowing someone can really change an opinion).

I can think of a few other reasons Lily's female friends might dislike Snape that we already have in the canon:

They might think he is ugly, and not good enough for Lily.

He's a Slytherin.

Nobody else likes him, so why would Lily?

That's similar to the opinions of the Marauders, and Lily's female friends might agree with that.

But doesn't Lily say people have been asking her about why she is friends with Snape for "years"? That's peer pressure, if you ask me, but even people like Hermione can fall into that, such as when she told Harry he could "do better" than Luna Lovegood, though she barely knew Luna. (Later in DH Hermione is as worried about Luna as anyone, which shows that knowing someone can really change an opinion).

I can think of a few other reasons Lily's female friends might dislike Snape that we already have in the canon:

They might think he is ugly, and not good enough for Lily.

He's a Slytherin.

Nobody else likes him, so why would Lily?

That's similar to the opinions of the Marauders, and Lily's female friends might agree with that.

I agree with you on most of your points. I think the second two points are ones that Lily's friends would bring up. But Snape's being a Slytherin and the fact that no one likes him are likely tied, at least in part, to the fact that more of the Slytherins than those in other houses were interested in the dark arts and had a budding interest in Voldemort - also they used dark arts curses on others. Those too could be reasons why her friends complained. That would be a very strong argument in their favor because they knew that Lily too was against the dark arts, dark art magic cursing and Voldemort.

The fact that Snape was unattractive would not be something that Lily had to make an excuse for in my opinion. I feel that she would defend Snape in such a case and tell her friends that they were being petty and unkind in indicating that one should only be friends with good looking people. :)

But doesn't Lily say people have been asking her about why she is friends with Snape for "years"? That's peer pressure, if you ask me, but even people like Hermione can fall into that, such as when she told Harry he could "do better" than Luna Lovegood, though she barely knew Luna. (Later in DH Hermione is as worried about Luna as anyone, which shows that knowing someone can really change an opinion).

I can think of a few other reasons Lily's female friends might dislike Snape that we already have in the canon:

They might think he is ugly, and not good enough for Lily.

He's a Slytherin.

Nobody else likes him, so why would Lily?

That's similar to the opinions of the Marauders, and Lily's female friends might agree with that.

He also knew many dark curses entering Hogwarts, he invented some himself and had to have used them at some point for people to start using Levicorpus, not to mention Sectumsempra was always a "speciality" of his. And he found Mulciber and Avery's actions funny.

So yeah, at face value people might have been prejudiced against him, but there were definitely other reasons as to why he was unpopular.

Lily was just the kind of person who could look past all of that and see a person's good side, and hope for them - but there's just a limit to that ability. Her friends didn't see the good side of Snape, so Lily felt she needed to defend that good side, while probably agreeing with the fact that what he did was bad; and then it all got thrown back in her face and she couldn't deal with that anymore.

If Charms is so easy, why is it necessary for Flitwick to teach a class in it? Why wasn't the whole class immediately able to move the pillows around the room during that levitation lesson of Flitwick's? Being good and having a natural talent at something doesn't mean one doesn't have to practice it to become better. Harry is talented at flying a broomstick. Does that mean he was as good at flying as it was possible to be in PS/SS? I highly doubt it - imagine being at the height of your talent at age 11! Whether it's athletics, art, or academics, everyone needs to practice to improve.Why do any of the students need any classes? They need to see proper technique, which is what Flitwick can provide. Feel free to imagine anything you want. That's fine. What we don't have is any canon that it happened. And besides the mention about Lily's wand we have no links to Charms. That's a huge leap to a romantic imagining about them practicing together, and then a huger leap to the idea that Snape was trying to be like Lily by using the most likely charm anyone would use in a duel. I'm trying to draw a line between imagination and character analysis.

I don't see why Ollivander would say that about Lily's wand in Book One if she wasn't good at charms. In all the time I've been here - 4 years - it's always been accepted that Lily's wand was good for charms, and therefore, she was good at charms. I see no reason to debate this. Ollivander knows his wands. And actually, there is canon that Snape became good at Charms also, since he does a mighty fine "Expelliarmus." So I see no reason why Snape and Lily couldn't have practiced together, while they were still friends.Right he said her wand was good for Charms. He didn't say she was good at Charms. And as for accepting that fact, of course all of fandom did, but then we got told she was quite good at Potions. It surprised most fans who had spun theories about her use of Charms. And I don't accept that Snape taught her Potions because that diminishes her own ability. Slughorn described her skills, not Snape's.

And because Snape showed competence with one spell, we really can't judge how much skill since Lockhart was so incompetent, with one of the most common dueling spells, we can't jump to conclude that Lily practiced Charms with Snape, or that he was trying to be more like Lily by using the most likely Charm that should be used in that circumstance.

Why do any of the students need any classes? They need to see proper technique, which is what Flitwick can provide.
Exactly - and they develop that proper technique themselves through practice. I'm glad you agree with my point. :) That's a huge leap to a romantic imagining about them practicing together, and then a huger leap to the idea that Snape was trying to be like Lily by using the most likely charm anyone would use in a duel.What's so romantic about practicing schoolwork together? It's something that friends do all the time. We see the Trio working on their schoolwork together. I don't see any reason to assume that Snape and Lily, being such good friends, as Snape stated and Lily confirmed, wouldn't have.

As for Snape trying to emulate Lily's approach to life, I doubt it, but it's possible that Snape was trying and was just unsuccessful most of the time - that his use of the disarming spell was an example of an instance of his success in emulating Lily.
I'm trying to draw a line between imagination and character analysis.Imagination is all we have left, since there is no more canon. :)
And I don't accept that Snape taught her Potions because that diminishes her own ability. Slughorn described her skills, not Snape's.However, it was Harry, using Snape's book, who reminded Slughorn of Lily. There are many possibilities for why that might have been the case. One possibility is that the method in Snape's book was very similar to the method Lily used because Snape helped her in Potions. I don't see how that would diminish Lily's ability. Someone who gets a good mark in a class after working with a tutor still deserves that good mark, for example.

Exactly - and they develop that proper technique themselves through practice. I'm glad you agree with my point. :)

What's so romantic about practicing schoolwork together? It's something that friends do all the time. We see the Trio working on their schoolwork together. I don't see any reason to assume that Snape and Lily, being such good friends, as Snape stated and Lily confirmed, wouldn't have.

You bring up an interesting point which made me think of another aspect of the friendship we have not explored. By 5th term, we see Lily and Snape on a rocky road in as far as their friendship and Lily and James with crushes on one another and Snape aware of that fact.

But what is an interesting aspect is the consideration of how Snape became aware of James' and Lily's mutual crush. Snape declared in the memories that James fancied Lily - but how did he know that? SWM had not yet occurred. Your spell practicing idea made me consider that it is altogether possible that in the evenings in Gryffindor the talented James and talented Lily got up to doing spells, impressing one another. Lily may have then remarked upon the fact that she 'did a spell better than James' or some such to Snape. Thus Snape would start to suspect that feelings were flying between Lily and James. If Lily bantered with James and his friends at the lunch table and tossed comments back and forth during class or in the hallways, that would likely further add to Snape's suspicions.

It seemed as if SWM was the first time Lily had told James off - so their chatter prior to that was likely more amiable. Although it was pretty obvious imo that James hadn't made blantant attempts at asking Lily out in front of Snape before. However, if James was already to the point of asking Lily out in the off hand manner he used during SWM, there must have been quite a bit of interaction between the two up to that point and other requests for dates - James' manner insisted that was not the first time he'd asked Lily to go out with him. I think Snape realized that during SWM and realized that James not only fancied Lily, but was taking aggressive steps to date her. That would explain the jealousy (combined with his anger and humiliation in SWM) that propelled Snape to call Lily a filthy mudblood and reject her attempt to defend him.

That could be yet another reason why it was Snape's worst memory. Not only because it marked the end of his friendship with Lily, but because it also was a significant indication that Lily and James did have feelings for one another. It makes me think that prior to that, when Snape told Lily that James fancied her, it had nothing to do with Lily making a fool of herself, but rather he was simply testing Lily's feelings in the matter. That would explain why he began walking with a lighter step immediately upon Lily's assurance that she thought James an arrogant toerag.

However, it was Harry, using Snape's book, who reminded Slughorn of Lily. There are many possibilities for why that might have been the case. One possibility is that the method in Snape's book was very similar to the method Lily used because Snape helped her in Potions. I don't see how that would diminish Lily's ability. Someone who gets a good mark in a class after working with a tutor still deserves that good mark, for example.

I respect your interpretation. My impression was that Slughorn was merely commenting that Harry was good as his mother had been - not that Harry's work emulated Lily's. I too like to think that JKR was trying to show that witches were just as talented as wizards and even if Lily practiced here and there with her friends, her abilities were not 'tutored', but rather reflected her own inate ability. However, this is something that each reader gets to decide for themselves as there is no canon on the matter. We can only respect one another's interpretation. :)

However, if James was already to the point of asking Lily out in the off hand manner he used during SWM, there must have been quite a bit of interaction between the two up to that point and other requests for dates - James' manner insisted that was not the first time he'd asked Lily to go out with him.That's probably true, although James might have asked in the off-handed way he did so he wouldn't lose face if she refused his offer - he could say he wasn't being serious. I think Snape realized that during SWM and realized that James not only fancied Lily, but was taking aggressive steps to date her. That would explain the jealousy (combined with his anger and humiliation in SWM) that propelled Snape to call Lily a filthy mudblood and reject her attempt to defend him.Yes, I definitely think it's possible that Snape saw this interaction between James and Lily as a mutual flirtation and that he wanted to cut it off, and he used the "mudblood" comment to do it. I still think it's his worst memory, though, because his words caused her to break off her friendship with him.
I respect your interpretation. My impression was that Slughorn was merely commenting that Harry was good as his mother had been - not that Harry's work emulated Lily's.I don't see a difference. I too like to think that JKR was trying to show that witches were just as talented as wizards and even if Lily practiced here and there with her friends, her abilities were not 'tutored', but rather reflected her own inate ability.I don't see it as a gender equality issue. There are a lot of talented witches. The point has previously been made that someone may have innate talent, but it doesn't mean there is no room to learn from others.

I'm not buying this idea of Lily and Snape "practicing" together. Apart from the library, they wouldn't have much opportunity to do so because they were in differenct house common rooms. If Lily had spent most of her time with Snape in the library, it would have been difficult for her to become so popular with her Gryffindor classmates.

I get what CBW is saying. Romanticizing the Snape-Lily dynamic has become a bit of passion, but there is no canon to support it.

Since Snape and Lily describe themselves as "best friends," they obviously spent a lot of time together for many of their years at Hogwarts. Maybe they sat around and talked. Maybe they practiced spells. Maybe they studied. Maybe they played Gobstones. Who cares? It's all speculation anyway, so I don't see the point of having an opinion on it, as long as it's something that's possible.