The Marauders: Group Character Analysis

I was wondering how the Marauders Animagus forms worked. Did they just instantly turn into animals and suddenly turn back in to humans? Is there canon anywhere about this...maybe with Rita or Minerva?

I always wondered what happened to their clothes when they transformed. Did their clothes transform with them or, when they changed back into humans, were they naked? Or are these questions you are not supposed to think about? :whistle:

I always wondered what happened to their clothes when they transformed. Did their clothes transform with them or, when they changed back into humans, were they naked? Or are these questions you are not supposed to think about? :whistle:

The clothes transform with them. Sirius transformed in the books and his clothes went with him. :)

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?

I would say no for Lupin. Having suffered as he had for pretty much his entire life because of being a werewolf, he was remarkably fair minded and understanding. From what we see in DH, James and Sirius were friends with each other first and I think Lupin understood that, even though they had a very strong bond between them, that didn't lesson their friendship with him. He knew they would be willing to die for him and he was willing to die for them. James and Sirius were closer, but I think it was really a marginal difference overall and they were very close to Lupin as well.

Pettigrew - he's a fascinating case study really. I don't believe Pettigrew ever had any genuine feeling of friendship towards James, Sirius, or Lupin. I think Pettigrew had ulterior motives from the beginning. He wanted strong friends to look out for him - protect him - and he behaved accordingly to get them to be friends with him. When the tide turned and someone else appeared to be stronger - he switched his allegience. I think the only person Pettigrew ever really cared about was himself. So I don't think it mattered much to him overall - as long as they served their purpose and were his protectors, he didn't care how they treated him.

We see that same dynamic with Pettigrew as an adult after Voldemort returns. He played the central role in helping Voldemort return to power - without Pettigrew, Voldemort would have remained stuck in Albania with no hope. Yet his "reward" was a silver hand that was enchanted to kill him at the slightest sign of betrayal and he was reduced to being little more than the Death Eaters' whipping boy. But that didn't really matter to Pettigrew - he was alive and had strong protectors. That's all he really cared about, IMO.

Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?

Well, this is an interesting question - and the most likely answer will not be popular. I believe Pettigrew did play a part in causing James and Sirius to suspect Lupin of being the spy. However, it is complicated because there's no way Pettigrew could have accomplished that on his own without drawing suspicion to himself. He had to have help. I believe that was part of Snape's role in spying on Dumbledore - before he wanted revenge over Lily's death of course. The information Dumbledore was receiving had to have been skewed to make it appear that it came from Lupin. From there, all Pettigrew had to do was point that out to James and Sirius.

James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?

I see it as both. It was noble because it was a very difficult and dangerous thing for them to attempt and their primary reason for even trying it was so they could be there for Lupin when he changed. They didn't want him to suffer or be alone. After they accomplished that, it became adventurous for them all and they thoroughly enjoyed those monthly adventures.

What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?

I wouldn't call that an obsession. James fancied Lily and I think it was clear that Sirius and Lupin were amused by that for the most part. I'm sure they had a lot of fun teasing James about it - particularly when Lily rejected him. As time went on, his feelings grew into a deep, abiding love and I think Sirius and Lupin respected that - perhaps were a little envious that James had found his soul mate so young, but not in a negative way. I think they were very happy for him. Though I'm sure they still had their fun in teasing him about his relationship with Lily on occasion.

How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?

I think Lily was a positive influence overall. James certainly listened to her and showed respect for her feelings and opinions - she told him exactly why she didn't want to date him, what she saw as bad behavior from him, and he made the effort to become a better person because of that. I think Sirius and Lupin were affected by that to some extent as well - though not so much as James.

James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?

I don't think either Lupin or Pettigrew would have been hurt by that decision. Lupin would have understood - even expected that, IMO. I don't believe Pettigrew really cared - as I stated above.

Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?

I don't think Pettigrew was every truly happy about anything. He wasn't completely evil - he didn't want other people to die and he didn't really enjoy playing a role in things like that. He didn't actively seek to kill or hurt anyone. However - first and foremost - his concern was for himself. He chose to be friends with the Marauders because he saw them as the strongest. When it appeared that they were not and he was threatened - he switched sides to save himself. He didn't want them to die, but he wasn't willing to risk his own life to prevent it - his attitude was "better them than me".

In a lot of ways, Pettigrew is a pitiable character - certainly fascinating from a psychological perspective. He really did not fit in anywhere - he was not intelligent like a Ravenclaw, certainly not loyal like a Hufflepuff, lacked the ambition of a Slytherin, and ultimately, he didn't even have courage. Pettigrew was a follower - a chameleon who would parrot whatever beliefs and values his chosen protectors had.

I've seen a lot of people compare Pettigrew to Neville, but I don't see that as a valid comparison. Neville was nothing like Pettigrew. He had low self-esteem, but he had his own values and beliefs and he was brave enough to stand up for them. He didn't seek out others to protect him or manipulate them into being his friends the way Pettigrew did with the Marauders. Neville was always a courageous person - it just took him a while to realize that for himself. Pettigrew is just despicable, IMO. He didn't truly care about anyone but himself - and even that was rather pathetic because he was perfectly content to be somebody's whipping boy as long as they protected him and he was alive.

Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?

I think it was a joint decision for James, Sirius, and Lupin - they all had strong values and beliefs towards what was the right thing to do. They all wanted to join the fight and stop Voldemort from taking over. Pettigrew was the follower with no true values or beliefs of his own. He most likely joined simply because they did - they were still his protectors at that time and he had an image to maintain with them.

The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?

If Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor, he would have been a very different person. In that event, there might never have been any issue between Snape and the Marauders.

However, I don't believe the Marauders singled out Snape. That's not really consistent with what is shown in the text. In DH, we see that Snape opened the hostilities between them. James obviously didn't like Slytherin house from his general comment about the house, but it was Snape who made it personal and - rather than making a negative comment about Gryffindor house in general - he threw out a personal insult at James. At some point during their first year, the Marauders learned that Snape was fascinated by the Dark Arts and knew more curses than half the seventh years. The only way they could know this was if they actually saw Snape using those curses or Snape used those curses against them - most likely a bit of both, IMO. They knew Snape associated with a group of "Death Eater Wannabes" and - from what Lily says to Snape - it was common knowledge that this gang used the Dark Arts to torture other students. I think the Marauders were against anything having to do with the Dark Arts and very likely acted out against any student using the Dark Arts - particularly those who were using the Dark Arts to torture other students.

On the flip side, Snape appeared to be very singular minded regarding the Marauders - particularly James. He saw James as a threat - competition for Lily's affections. He sought to remove them - followed them around, trying to get them expelled, passing around his "theory" that Lupin was a werewolf - anything he could think of to discredit them and make them look bad to Lily. From what we are shown in canon, Snape was the antagonist overall. Of course, that doesn't excuse what James and Sirius did - they certainly behaved immaturely and did wrong - but so did Snape. It was a mutual rivalry between them and both sides gave as good as they got.

How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?

I think James and Sirius were just like the Weasley twins - and I think both were hilarious. I've often wondered if the twins ever found out that James, Sirius, and Lupin were the Marauders and if there was any bonding between them and Sirius and Lupin during the time they were all staying at Grimmauld Place.

Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?

My opinion about the Marauders did not change with Deathly Hallows. I've always felt that James, Sirius, and Lupin were very good men. Yes, they were immature as teenagers and made mistakes, but they grew up and matured into good men - true heroes really. Sirius and Lupin also made mistakes as adults, but for understandable reasons and they did learn from their mistakes for the most part.

Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?

It really would be a toss up between James, Sirius, and Lupin. They all had qualities I admire - they all made mistakes that were disappointing. Their love for each other and loyalty to each other and the strength of their friendship is something to be admired. The fact that they were all willing to risk their lives to do the right thing simply because it was the right thing to do is something to be admired. I really could not pick a favorite among those three.

However, I don't believe the Marauders singled out Snape. That's not really consistent with what is shown in the text. In DH, we see that Snape opened the hostilities between them. James obviously didn't like Slytherin house from his general comment about the house, but it was Snape who made it personal and - rather than making a negative comment about Gryffindor house in general - he threw out a personal insult at James.
I disagree completely. James said "Who wants to be in Slytherin?" It doesn't get more personal than that! James was rude about Snape's choice of house so Snape responded in kind. We see right from the start that James is arrogant and big-headed and full of his own self-importance. His comment about Slytherin is almost exactly the same as Draco Malfoy's about Hufflepuff. Both boys come across as rude and obnoxious.

I disagree completely. James said "Who wants to be in Slytherin?" It doesn't get more personal than that! James was rude about Snape's choice of house so Snape responded in kind. We see right from the start that James is arrogant and big-headed and full of his own self-importance. His comment about Slytherin is almost exactly the same as Draco Malfoy's about Hufflepuff. Both boys come across as rude and obnoxious.

I agree. James came out with a comment about Snape's choice of house, and Snape, scorned, threw back an insult. I don't blame Snape, because I would have done exactly the same thing. James' comment was completely unneccesary and would have been better kept to himself. From then on, James continued to be rude and horrible to Snape. Snape definitely didn't help by retorting to things that James said, but, IMO, James was the driving force in forming this hate between them. Just my opinion :)

The clothes transform with them. Sirius transformed in the books and his clothes went with him. :)

Okay. :) But what about Remus? When he changes back to human, is he naked?

How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?

I think James and Sirius were just like the Weasley twins - and I think both were hilarious. I've often wondered if the twins ever found out that James, Sirius, and Lupin were the Marauders and if there was any bonding between them and Sirius and Lupin during the time they were all staying at Grimmauld Place.


I dont think that James and Sirius are actually very similar to the Weasley twins. Sure both pairs enjoyed practical jokes and such, but I think what they considered to be funny greatly differed. Fred and George's sense of humor didnt have to do with picking on those that were different from them. I could never imagine either of the twins playing a practical joke on someone that could cause them great harm or possibly death. I often found myself laughing at the twins actions, but for the most parrt, the little we did see of James and Sirius, I didnt consider funny.

Okay. :) But what about Remus? When he changes back to human, is he naked?

I think that Remus' change would be different. When turning into a werewolf, I would imagine that his clothes would rip off instead of changing with him, and so would be naked when he changes back.

I think that Remus' change would be different. When turning into a werewolf, I would imagine that his clothes would rip off instead of changing with him, and so would be naked when he changes back.

Now I'm wondering, the mornining after Peter escaped, how did Remus make it back to the castle without any clothes on?

Now I'm wondering, the mornining after Peter escaped, how did Remus make it back to the castle without any clothes on?

:rotfl: Good point.

I just read the passage in PoA where Remus transforms and it doesn't mention anything about his clothes. Maybe he is like an animagus...:hmm:

:rotfl: Good point.

I just read the passage in PoA where Remus transforms and it doesn't mention anything about his clothes. Maybe he is like an animagus...:hmm:

I just got this mental image of Remus running through the Hogwarts entrance, bare naked with his hands clasped infront his private parts, and a group of Hufflepuff girls pointing and giggling at him.

For Remus' sake, I hope his clothes transform with him. :lol:

I just got this mental image of Remus running through the Hogwarts entrance, bare naked with his hands clasped infront his private parts, and a group of Hufflepuff girls pointing and giggling at him.
You've reminded me of "An American Werewolf in London" and the scene when he wakes up in the zoo! :rotfl: Mind you I guess some of you are too young to have seen that film. :scared:

I disagree completely. James said "Who wants to be in Slytherin?" It doesn't get more personal than that!

I agree. If I mention I like HP and someone hears me say that and says HP is lame, I would defimitely think it was personal. James insulted Slytherin knowing it was Snape's house of choice. So I'd say he started it.

As for singling hi out - Sirius himself said Snape was a special case for James.

I dont think that James and Sirius are actually very similar to the Weasley twins. Sure both pairs enjoyed practical jokes and such, but I think what they considered to be funny greatly differed. Fred and George's sense of humor didnt have to do with picking on those that were different from them. I could never imagine either of the twins playing a practical joke on someone that could cause them great harm or possibly death. I often found myself laughing at the twins actions, but for the most parrt, the little we did see of James and Sirius, I didnt consider funny.

:tu::tu: Exactly!

I dont think that James and Sirius are actually very similar to the Weasley twins. Sure both pairs enjoyed practical jokes and such, but I think what they considered to be funny greatly differed. Fred and George's sense of humor didnt have to do with picking on those that were different from them.

Well, I disagree slightly. They aren't the same, but I wouldn't say they're that different. After SWM, Harry says that Fred and George wouldn't have done what James did unless it was someone who they thought really deserved it, like Malfoy. So, really, they would have done something similar if they thought the person deserved it.

I could never imagine either of the twins playing a practical joke on someone that could cause them great harm or possibly death.

Well, first, I have to point out that James didn't ever do anything like that, Sirius did. ;) And, second, Fred and George did pull a practical prank that nearly resulted in the death of another. Fred and George shoved Montague in the Vanishing Cabinet in OotP, leaving Montague trapped between the two Vanishing Cabinets, unaware as to how to escape. He did manage to escape, but that nearly cost his life - Draco even admits that he could have died in HBP. I really don't think the Weasleys were all that innocent in what they did, to be honest.

And as for who started it. . . . IMO, it doesn't matter who started it. The fact is that Snape and James hated each other and hexed each other. It was mutual. I think both are equally bad for what they did and I honestly don't see the point in saying who's worse than the other or who started it.

Well, I disagree slightly. They aren't the same, but I wouldn't say they're that different. After SWM, Harry says that Fred and George wouldn't have done what James did unless it was someone who they thought really deserved it, like Malfoy. So, really, they would have done something similar if they thought the person deserved it.



Well, first, I have to point out that James didn't ever do anything like that, Sirius did. ;) And, second, Fred and George did pull a practical prank that nearly resulted in the death of another. Fred and George shoved Montague in the Vanishing Cabinet in OotP, leaving Montague trapped between the two Vanishing Cabinets, unaware as to how to escape. He did manage to escape, but that nearly cost his life - Draco even admits that he could have died in HBP. I really don't think the Weasleys were all that innocent in what they did, to be honest.


No I don't think they were innocent either, they were a lot like Sirius and James. They gave Dudley one of their sweets to test out in GoF, making his tongue huge, sure it couldn't have killed him, but the twins were fully aware what kind of muggles the Dursleys were, and definately thought that Dudley deserved it.
Also when Ron was young they tried to get him to make an unbreakable vow, I thought that was hilarious but could have been fatal to Ron.

I agree. If I mention I like HP and someone hears me say that and says HP is lame, I would defimitely think it was personal. James insulted Slytherin knowing it was Snape's house of choice. So I'd say he started it.

As for singling hi out - Sirius himself said Snape was a special case for James.

This reminds me of something the director (school principle/headmaster)used to say to me when I'd accuse someone of having started it. He'd always say "and you darn well finished it!" :lol:

It used to anger me because it seemed unfair that I would get in trouble for what I saw as defending myself. But he was right of course; the thing is not to finish it because you become as culpable as the other person. Course back then I'd never do the right thing and alert a professor to end it - I figured ending it myself was better :lol:. But subsequently I realized that would have been the correct thing to do. Perhaps that is why I have a different view of all the hexing going on in HP, I relate from a participatory rather than an onlooker's point of view - and acknowledge that it can take time for kids to understand the correct way to deal with the situation.

I think it was well done in HP. On the train, whoever started things (which is debatable), the others finished it. And that is very normal at that age - similar to when Draco started things and Hermione finished it by punching him in the nose. :lol:. It just takes time to settle into the correct way of going about this type of thing for some kids.

Well, I disagree slightly. They aren't the same, but I wouldn't say they're that different. After SWM, Harry says that Fred and George wouldn't have done what James did unless it was someone who they thought really deserved it, like Malfoy. So, really, they would have done something similar if they thought the person deserved it.

Okay, your right, they are more similar than I made them sound. But Fred and George had plenty of oppurtunities to do something like that to Malfoy, but they didnt. And they didnt constantly do cruel things to the same person over and over. And for the most part, they really didnt do anything that could harm people, they were mostly just pranksters, always looking for a good laugh, but not usually at the expense of others. James and Sirius seemed to pick on people (or Snape at least) just for entertainment and to relieve boredom.

This reminds me of something the director (school principle/headmaster)used to say to me when I'd accuse someone of having started it. He'd always say "and you darn well finished it!" :lol:

It used to anger me because it seemed unfair that I would get in trouble for what I saw as defending myself. But he was right of course; the thing is not to finish it because you become as culpable as the other person. Course back then I'd never do the right thing and alert a professor to end it - I figured ending it myself was better :lol:. But subsequently I realized that would have been the correct thing to do. Perhaps that is why I have a different view of all the hexing going on in HP, I relate from a participatory rather than an onlooker's point of view - and acknowledge that it can take time for kids to understand the correct way to deal with the situation.

So you're saying Snape should have taken it lying down? Something James couldn't do even at 17, by Sirius's account?

And I don't think who started it is debatable at all. It's on page - Snape apparently had nothing against James until James insulted his preferred House while knowing it was his preferred House. So yeah, James definitely started it. And it's not my opinion, it's in black and white on page.

And they didnt constantly do cruel things to the same person over and over.

The series only gives us canon that James and Sirius bullied Snape in SWM and that James and Snape hexed each other mutually in their seventh year. I don't really know if they constantly did cruel things to each other.

And for the most part, they really didnt do anything that could harm people, they were mostly just pranksters, always looking for a good laugh, but not usually at the expense of others.

But the Montague incident and what they did to Dudley weren't harmless, IMO. I'm not trying to make excuses for anyone, but James never intentionally tried to harm someone, it was only Sirius who nearly caused Snape to die.

James and Sirius seemed to pick on people (or Snape at least) just for entertainment and to relieve boredom.

Lily says that James hexed anyone who annoyed him just because he could. So he mostly hexed people that annoyed him, which isn't great, but it wasn't all just in humor.

The series only gives us canon that James and Sirius bullied Snape in SWM and that James and Snape hexed each other mutually in their seventh year. I don't really know if they constantly did cruel things to each other.

I find the fact that in SWM Snape was called Snivellus a hefty clue myself. that was the name Sirius made up for him on the train to Hogwarts. the fact they are still using it 5 years later indicates that it has been going on continuiously since then.

I find the fact that in SWM Snape was called Snivellus a hefty clue myself. that was the name Sirius made up for him on the train to Hogwarts. the fact they are still using it 5 years later indicates that it has been going on continuiously since then.

Not to be overly picky, but we don't know for a fact who called Snape Snivellus on the train. :whistle: Besides that, I felt that it showed that they hated each other all that time, not that they constantly acted on it.

Besides that, I felt that it showed that they hated each other all that time, not that they constantly acted on it.

Is there a reason to assume they didn't?

Is there a reason to assume they didn't?

Because we don't have canon that specifically says that they were cruel to each other before fifth year.

Not to be overly picky, but we don't know for a fact who called Snape Snivellus on the train. :whistle: Besides that, I felt that it showed that they hated each other all that time, not that they constantly acted on it.

Well I don't think it makes any difference is it was James or Sirius.

The point still stands, one of them made up a horrible name to call Sev. If the bullying had stopped & SWM was a aberration I think it highly unlikely that they would remember a name they had made up 5 years earlier. They are still using the name because they have a reason to remember it – which to me indicates that it have been in constant use during the intervening 5 years.

Because we don't have canon that specifically says that they were cruel to each other before fifth year.

As we've seen, a good deal of the stuff in HP is not stated explicitly. But we have plenty of evidence to conclude this was NOT an isolated incident. The use of Snivellus, as kittling pointed out, the fact that James instantly looks like ahound dog just at the look of Severus, the fact that Severus instinctively reaches for his wand are all pretty sizeable hints that this was a routine rather than a surprise.

We also have Sirius and Remus's testimony on that - Sirius says Snape was a special case for James, and Remus utters the indicaive sentence "Did I ever tell you to lay off Snape?" which would make no sense unless the picking on Snape thing was something which occurred repeatedly.

The series only gives us canon that James and Sirius bullied Snape in SWM and that James and Snape hexed each other mutually in their seventh year. I don't really know if they constantly did cruel things to each other.

I think the way James responded to seeing Snape during SWM suggested that it happened quite regularly. James was happy to see Snape and have a chance to relieve some boredom. I think it would be save to assume it happened on occasions before this.



But the Montague incident and what they did to Dudley weren't harmless, IMO. I'm not trying to make excuses for anyone, but James never intentionally tried to harm someone, it was only Sirius who nearly caused Snape to die.

Point taken. :)

Lily says that James hexed anyone who annoyed him just because he could. So he mostly hexed people that annoyed him, which isn't great, but it wasn't all just in humor.

Which is just as bad or possibly worse. I think this just goes to show how arrogant James was, picking on people that annoyed him...

Well I don't think it makes any difference is it was James or Sirius.

I was just saying that we don't know who said it, even if it was James or Sirius. It only says that a voice called him that. I do think that it was James or Sirius, but I'm not completely sure. :)

the fact that James instantly looks like ahound dog just at the look of Severus,

Just wondering, what are you referring to? I haven't read the books for a while, so I really don't remember much.

the fact that Severus instinctively reaches for his wand are all pretty sizeable hints that this was a routine rather than a surprise.

We also have Sirius and Remus's testimony on that - Sirius says Snape was a special case for James, and Remus utters the indicaive sentence "Did I ever tell you to lay off Snape?" which would make no sense unless the picking on Snape thing was something which occurred repeatedly.

Point taken.

Which is just as bad or possibly worse. I think this just goes to show how arrogant James was, picking on people that annoyed him...

I wasn't saying that it was good or bad, really. I was just saying that James didn't hex people only out of humor. ;)

The Marauders loved a good prank, like Fred and George - that is what "hexing for fun" means. It is either something you like and think is funny (like Ron or Harry) or something that is annoying (like Lily or Hermione). I can respect both viewpoints, I myself found it hilarious, but I realize some don't see it that way. :)

The Marauders loved a good prank, like Fred and George - that is what "hexing for fun" means. It is either something you like and think is funny (like Ron or Harry) or something that is annoying (like Lily or Hermione). I can respect both viewpoints, I myself found it hilarious, but I realize some don't see it that way. :)
I think it's hilarious only from the viewpoint of the Marauders- I'm sure Snape wouldn't have said that. ;) They weren't physically harming him, but then again, he did nothing to ask for it. I think both parties were at fault here. James didn't have to mock Snape in front of everybody, and Snape didn't have to use Sectumsempra on him. James wasn't quite mature yet at this point- later, I'm sure he only would have attacked Snape if it was in retaliation. TThat way, Lily thought he was all right and they got together. :)

Oh I wasn't referring to the hex battles. That is distinct. I was referring to the "hexing for fun". The hex battles were like Draco v. Harry - more serious in nature.

I think it's hilarious only from the viewpoint of the Marauders- I'm sure Snape wouldn't have said that. ;) They weren't physically harming him, but then again, he did nothing to ask for it. I think both parties were at fault here. James didn't have to mock Snape in front of everybody, and Sirius didn't have to use Sectumsempra on him. James wasn't quite mature yet at this point- later, I'm sure he only would have attacked Snape if it was in retaliation. TThat way, Lily thought he was all right and they got together. :)

I think you mean Snape didn't have to use Sectumsempra on him. :)
Other than that, I agree with you. No one was innocent in that scene. I think the important thing is James did grow up eventually. We all did bad things when we are kids. I think we should realize nobody is perfect when they are 15 (I'm not excusing James though) and we shouldn't hold this so much against James. Anyways, I thought SWM was hilarious. I guess I am a minority though.

Just wondering, what are you referring to? I haven't read the books for a while, so I really don't remember much.

When they see him after the exam is over, sitting on the ground looking at his paper, James is described as looking like a hound dog at the sight of Severus and muttering "Excellent, Snivellus" (or in the other order, not sure) and then goes on to bully him.

James didn't have to mock Snape in front of everybody, and Sirius didn't have to use Sectumsempra on him.

Yeah, but the later was done in self defence while the former was done for fun or out of boredom. It's unfair to equate them like that.

Oh I wasn't referring to the hex battles. That is distinct. I was referring to the "hexing for fun". The hex battles were like Draco v. Harry - more serious in nature.:blush: Right, my bad.

I think you mean Snape didn't have to use Sectumsempra on him. :)
Other than that, I agree with you. No one was innocent in that scene. I think the important thing is James did grow up eventually. We all did bad things when we are kids. I think we should realize nobody is perfect when they are 15 (I'm not excusing James though) and we shouldn't hold this so much against James. Anyways, I thought SWM was hilarious. I guess I am a minority though.:blush: My bad again! *edits post* I agree though, Harry shouldn't have thought that his father was like a god. Like Sirius and Lupin said when he talked to them about it, they were just kids. All kids get in fights, most kids pick on others sometimes. It's just a natural part of life. Plus, Snape was always cursing them. He wasn't completely innocent there either. No one is ever innocent in a fight, because it takes two. :)

When they see him after the exam is over, sitting on the ground looking at his paper, James is described as looking like a hound dog at the sight of Severus and muttering "Excellent, Snivellus" (or in the other order, not sure) and then goes on to bully him.

I think you mean Sirius. He is described as becoming very still, like a dog that has scented a rabbit. And well...Sirius is a dog animagus after all...:lol:. James is not described at all.

Yeah, but the later was done in self defence while the former was done for fun or out of boredom. It's unfair to equate them like that.

I would agree it was done in revenge or retaliation, but it was not self defense because at that time James had his back to Snape and his concentration fully upon Lily. Snape was not even being attacked by Sirius who was busy watching James and Lily. This is what I was referring to by "starting it and finishing it" - all of the participants become culpable. Hence Lily's comment to James, "you are just as bad as him". She didn't say either was worse, the same bad...just like my old school director used to say. :lol:

Yeah, but the later was done in self defence while the former was done for fun or out of boredom. It's unfair to equate them like that.Sirius tells Harry that Snape never missed an opportunity to jinx James. We can't assume that it was the first time. Snape must have done something before too. It wasn't really in self-defense, either. James wasn't actually hurting him, just taunting him.

When they see him after the exam is over, sitting on the ground looking at his paper, James is described as looking like a hound dog at the sight of Severus and muttering "Excellent, Snivellus" (or in the other order, not sure) and then goes on to bully him.

Okay, I understand now. But there's one thing - it was Sirius who said that and was described like that, not James. That's where my confusion was.

:blush: My bad again! *edits post* I agree though, Harry shouldn't have thought that his father was like a god. Like Sirius and Lupin said when he talked to them about it, they were just kids. All kids get in fights, most kids pick on others sometimes. It's just a natural part of life. Plus, Snape was always cursing them. He wasn't completely innocent there either. No one is ever innocent in a fight, because it takes two. :)

:agree: It's a natural part of life. Everyone goes through a stage when he or she acts like an idiot. I have, and thankfully I've learned from that. I don't use James' age as an excuse, but I really don't hold his actions against him because he grew up. I've seen people that were horrible to me - someone that was my best friend - and she grew up and I forgave her. If I can forgive her for what she did to me, I can't hold actions of a person at fifteen against him or her.

And, to be honest, I only liked James after SWM because it showed that he wasn't perfect, but a flawed human being.

Other than that, I agree with you. No one was innocent in that scene.

The victim fighting back is definitely not the same level of "not innocent" as the bully attacking without provocation.

I think the important thing is James did grow up eventually.

I disagree. Judging James's actions in this scene at that moment in the light of his later character makes no sense to me. It hadn't happened yet, so what effect could it possibly have on how he behaved in that particular scene? Nothing excuses him, if you ask me. And certainly not his development-to-come.

We all did bad things when we are kids. I think we should realize nobody is perfect when they are 15 (I'm not excusing James though) and we shouldn't hold this so much against James.

I hold it against the 15-year-old-James, especially since we are shown nothing else of him at that age.

Anyways, I thought SWM was hilarious. I guess I am a minority though.

I hought it was cruel. I still do. Thre is nothing funny in it as far as I can see, but I guess that depends on who you identify with.

I hought it was cruel. I still do. Thre is nothing funny in it as far as I can see, but I guess that depends on who you identify with.

I agree. I think it is terrible of the Marauder's to single out someone like that and pick on them for no apparent reason other than boredom. And Jame's growing up eventually doesnt really matter during SWM since he still has to take responsibility for those actions. He cant just defend himself with "Oh,I will mature later on."


And I do think Snape was innocent during SWM. He was minding his own business doing abosolutely nothing that would cause the Marauder's to go pick on him. He was a vicitm in this situation. (although I'm not saying this was always the case or that his behavior was excusable.)

Okay, I understand now. But there's one thing - it was Sirius who said that and was described like that, not James. That's where my confusion was.

Oh! Sorry. I haven'r reread for a long time either.

And, to be honest, I only liked James after SWM because it showed that he wasn't perfect, but a flawed human being.

Now that's something I can definitely understand, in principle. :)

Sirius tells Harry that Snape never missed an opportunity to jinx James.

As far as I remember, he was referring to their seventh year.

We can't assume that it was the first time. Snape must have done something before too.

Must have? Based on what? There is no canon - not so much as a HINT that James was acting on any old happening between them.

And even if that was the specific case, you'd really say this was sufficient reason for James to bully him? You'd really call it provocation?

We saw very clearly that Snape did NOTHING to ask for what happened to him. He didn't provoke this cruel behaviour in any way. He was out of their way, doing something which affected nobody. We might as well blame him for existing - which James actually did!

It wasn't really in self-defense, either. James wasn't actually hurting him, just taunting him.

Would you like that done on you or on a friend of yours? And if that friend retaliates, you'd say he had no reason to?

I don't know if PerfectDystopia was trying to excuse his behavior. I think she was merely pointing out that James actually changed instead of continuing to behave the way shown in OotP. I agree, I'm glad that he changed, and I think that's important if one evaluates his personality as a whole.

The victim fighting back is definitely not the same level of "not innocent" as the bully attacking without provocation.

I respect your view, but in my opinion there is a difference between fighting back and attacking back. It is subtle, but in the first case, a person is just trying to ward off the other and extricate themselves from being a victim as soon as possible. In the second case, the person has no desire to extricate themselves and is bent on revenge so attacks. Snape was in the latter category, imo. Lily, who was on Snape's side, made that clear by her attitude and behavior, imo. There is no way that being Snape's friend and having watched him constantly bullied for years her face would quirk into an almost smile when he was lifted up. She didn't like the situation - she hated fighting and James and Sirius had the clear advantage - that time - but she'd obviously seen a lot of hex wars between them all and that was evidently not always the case. Later she asks Snape why he is so obsessed with them - just as she asked James what Snape had done to him.


I thought it was cruel. I still do. Thre is nothing funny in it as far as I can see, but I guess that depends on who you identify with.

Well it is a matter of perspective. If you are looking at it as an objective outsider, funny things occured. Lily said she'd rather date a giant squid than James, he joked that Snape just existed, Snape was lifted and his robes fell revealing dingey undies, Snape's got his mouth full of soap, Lily calls Snape Snivellous, Snape calls her a filthy little mudblood, Lily humiliates James telling him off before the crowd and Sirius adds salt to the wound, Snape starts issuing swear words like there's no tomorrow - well I was cracking up the whole time.

But from an interpersonal perspective (putting yourself in the place of the participants - any of them) it was not funny at various points in time. For Snape, it was never funny; for Lily, during the undy lift it was funny; for James and Sirius, at the beginning - for James and Lily, while conversing. But at all other times they took it very seriously and were not amused.

So I do see it from both sides. But from a readers perspective (not involved in the situation) it was hilarious to me too. :)

why would anyone vote for peter, honestly, if I may ask?

why would anyone vote for peter, honestly, if I may ask?

You know I thought that! Voting Peter, personally I don't see how he could possibly be a favourite in any situation, and especially when up against Sirius, Lupin and James!

I respect your view, but in my opinion there is a difference between fighting back and attacking back. It is subtle, but in the first case, a person is just trying to ward off the other and extricate themselves from being a victim as soon as possible. In the second case, the person has no desire to extricate themselves and is bent on revenge so attacks.

Either way, Snape was provoked for his actions while James wasn't. And I'd say the provocation was humiliating enough to envoke a keen desire to shake the humiliation off oneself by gaining a position of control.

So I do see it from both sides. But from a readers perspective (not involved in the situation) it was hilarious to me too. :)

Taking the context into account, I'd say it wasn't supposed to be funny either. It was supposed to give Harry and the readers a glimpse of Sanpe's crappy teen days and, more importantly, a perspective on James - it's no coincidence that the paragraph (or even the chapter?) ends with the words "his father was every bit as arrogant as Snape had ever descibed him" (or something similar) - because this was the primary reason for this scene even being there. So my verdict would be, no, not funny at all.

Either way, Snape was provoked for his actions while James wasn't. And I'd say the provocation was humiliating enough to envoke a keen desire to shake the humiliation off oneself by gaining a position of control.

Oh I totally agree that Sirius and James did the initial provoking in this situation. :) Just as James too retaliated by attacking when Snape cursed him in 7th year. They all had the same reaction to the hex battle situation (that is why it became a hex battle :lol:). I also agree with your evaluation of the response because one would want to shake off humiliation or anger or frustration or whatever and gain the upper hand.

Taking the context into account, I'd say it wasn't supposed to be funny either.

Honestly? I rather think JKR was writing it intentionally to be funny. "I would rather date a giant squid that you" - I imagine she'd think her readers would laugh. Snape's undies showing and being dingey...same thing. James saying "just because he exists" and Sirius saying "reading between the lines, I'd say she thinks your conceited, mate" - all meant to be funny, imo. Even Lily telling James off when he was defending her and her response to Snape calling her a mudblood were all written with underlying humor, imo.

I also don't believe she felt all readers would be totally in agreement with Harry's view of the event - James forced Lily to marry him? Ignore the fact that James was smattered with blood by a nasty curse? Ignore that Lily called Snape Snivellous and told him to wash his pants, then told off James when he defended her? Well for an inexperienced 15 year old - yeah I can understand Harry seeing things and not others and his point of focus was more honed in on his father than anything else. I think some readers would just follow along with Harry's thoughts in agreement, but other readers would see it more comprehensively and many would be able to enjoy the humor present as their view of the scene would not be as innocent or James-centric as Harry's was - aimo.

It was supposed to give Harry and the readers a glimpse of Sanpe's crappy teen days and, more importantly, a perspective on James - it's no coincidence that the paragraph (or even the chapter?) ends with the words "his father was every bit as arrogant as Snape had ever descibed him" (or something similar) - because this was the primary reason for this scene even being there. So my verdict would be, no, not funny at all.

That was not the primary reason for the scene being there in my opinion. It was the prime reason within the context of the story for Harry himself, but it gave the readers a much broader glimpse because we were privileged to see the entire scene and make what we would of it - just as Harry did. It said things about Lily and Sirius as well, but Harry shrugged those off completely after an initial thought. Because the story was "Harry's tale" we were directed by him to certain aspects, but reading is not being led by the protagonist into making definitive decisions - or we would have all thought Snape was a loyal death eater after HBP, which 1/2 the readership did not. The scene could leave one with many false impressions, but JKR was careful to clear many of them up in the next chapter (even taking into account the younger readers to ensure them James had not forced Lily to marry him :lol:) and because Snape had to continue to appear possibly evil, she waited until DH to definitively clear the matter up completely - although we got a few more clues in HBP.

As Moriath once said, the memories are true and show exactly what happened, but the starting and ending points and the events displayed are selected by the person rendering the memory. It is important to keep that in mind as well, imo. Plus, we as readers see through Harry's eyes. For example, after the test, did Snape stop to speak to any Slytherins? We have no idea because Harry has no idea...his focus was completely upon the Marauders and he didn't pay attention to Snape while they were talking at all. So we don't actually get even as good a view of it as Harry could - we only see the specific things Harry noticed about the memory.

The victim fighting back is definitely not the same level of "not innocent" as the bully attacking without provocation.

I wasn't implying it was. What I meant was, Snape didn't just stand there, he fought back. With Sectumsempra, nonetheless.

I disagree. Judging James's actions in this scene at that moment in the light of his later character makes no sense to me. It hadn't happened yet, so what effect could it possibly have on how he behaved in that particular scene? Nothing excuses him, if you ask me. And certainly not his development-to-come.

I wasn't excusing James. (I'm pretty sure I even said that) Personally, when I re-read SWM, I have the knowledge of the good person James grows up to be and to know that James goes from a low point of being a bully to becoming a better person makes me happy. James actions in SWM aren't excusable, but I could forgive him when he becomes a better person.

I thought it was cruel. I still do. Thre is nothing funny in it as far as I can see, but I guess that depends on who you identify with.

Honestly, I can identify with Snape in that scene. I have been bullied before, and it sucks. But being bullied has given me a perspective on the subject of bullying, one you that probably don't agree with.

Taking the context into account, I'd say it wasn't supposed to be funny either. It was supposed to give Harry and the readers a glimpse of Sanpe's crappy teen days and, more importantly, a perspective on James - it's no coincidence that the paragraph (or even the chapter?) ends with the words "his father was every bit as arrogant as Snape had ever descibed him" (or something similar) - because this was the primary reason for this scene even being there. So my verdict would be, no, not funny at all.

I agree - I found SWM very uncomfortable to read and afterwards felt very shocked. Harry didn't find it funny in the least - and neither did I. Harry was clearly disturbed by what he saw of his father - so much so that he was prepared to risk an awful lot so he could speak to lupin and Black about it.
It is shocking for the reader as it is for Harry because everyone has assumed up to this point that Snape was lying when he said James' father was arrogant. This is a wake up call to Harry and the readers not to take things at face value - and not to let prejudice against particular people blind you to the reality.


I think less mature readers would just follow along with Harry's thoughts in agreement, but a more mature reader would see it more comprehensively and many would be able to enjoy the humor present as their view of the scene would not be as innocent or James-centric as Harry's was - aimo.:wow: I think it is extremely unwise to suggest that readers who see things differently to you are immature!

:wow: I think it is extremely unwise to suggest that readers who see things differently to you are immature!
I agree. :tu: Let's keep things friendly here and remember to respect other people's opinions.

:wow: I think it is extremely unwise to suggest that readers who see things differently to you are immature!

That is not what I meant; I was speaking in terms of mature issues, not the maturity level of the posters. But I have changed the term, so hopefully my meaning is clearer. :)

I wasn't implying it was. What I meant was, Snape didn't just stand there, he fought back. With Sectumsempra, nonetheless.

So he should have just taken it lying down? What's wrong with fighting back really?

Honestly, I can identify with Snape in that scene. I have been bullied before, and it sucks. But being bullied has given me a perspective on the subject of bullying, one you that probably don't agree with.

Well, I can't know that since I don't know what that perspective is. But I was bullied as well, repeaedly, by a gang of guys who would beat me up every other day in the school corridors. I couldn't do much about it, because I was outnumbered and physically weaker. I think this is why I don't find the scene funny in the least, and that's what I was referring to when I said it depended on who you identify with - that's why I can't see it from the bullies' point of view andfind it fun.

So he should have just taken it lying down? What's wrong with fighting back really?
He used Sectumsempra when James had his back turned and was paying more attention to Lily than Snape. It wasn't self defense then imo. James was clearly distracted. I think that curse might have also come from jealousy - because he sent it at James just after James asked Lily out. (Good thing for Snape Mad eye wasn't there ;))

When I first read SWM I admit I was cheering for the Marauders... *cough* But I just really really really hated Snape. :p It really depends on who's perspective you read it from I guess.. I do think it's horrible behavior, but I knew James and Sirius were just being those teenage idiots and knew they grew out of it eventually. It was just a phase. I could forgive them :p

When I first read SWM I admit I was cheering for the Marauders... *cough* But I just really really really hated Snape. :p

And therein lies my problem with this scene. :)

People really hate Snape, so it's OK for him to be bullied. :no:

That kind of goes against the whole message of the HP saga, doesn't it? Or is it really OK for Gryffindors to bully Slytherins, but not the other way round? :whistle:

I didn't like Snape much either, at the time of reading OotP (although I was beginning to find him a fascinating character) but I still found SWM a repulsive scene. Like Harry, I found myself sympathising with Snape ... possibly for the first time (as it was for Harry).

It's a powerful scene precisely because it's morally repulsive, as Rowling intended (well, I presume she intended :whistle: ). It calls to mind the childhood bullying which I guess quite a lot of us have had experience of, in various forms.

I do think it's horrible behavior, but I knew James and Sirius were just being those teenage idiots and knew they grew out of it eventually. It was just a phase. I could forgive them.

Well, I've never taken the view that James and Sirius remained arrogant prats forever. :cool:

Sirius always retains his dark streak (which is why he is such a compelling character) but I certainly don't see James as growing up to be as arrogant and jerk-ish as he is in this scene. Even with the little that JKR gives us on James, that doesn't match the overall impression I have of him as fighting for the Order and being a good father to Harry, for example. Nobody who is Harry's dad could be a complete prat, IMO. ;)

As a woman in my 40s, though, the supposed 'charm' and 'humour' of this scene totally escapes me. :)

And therein lies my problem with this scene. :) People really hate Snape, so it's OK for him to be bullied. :no: That kind of goes against the whole message of the HP saga, doesn't it? Or is it really OK for Gryffindors to bully Slytherins, but not the other way round? :whistle: As a woman in my 40s, though, the supposed 'charm' and 'humour' of this scene totally escapes me. :

I think it is all about scene construction. If I construed Snape as a victim, then I would totally agree with you. It would not be okay to bully and/or victimize Snape (or anyone) incessantly, with him cowering in a corner while he was ganged up on and left bloodied for another day. If that is what JKR intended for us to believe, then I would completely condemn James and Sirius for their actions - regardless of how I felt about Snape.

But imo, that is the antithesis of what is shown in canon - honestly. I have often brought up the many points JKR gave us to show how things went between Snape and the Marauders on a normal basis and that it was not always like SWM. I do not believe anyone has to agree with me, but imo, there is ample evidence that Snape was not a victim in the way I described above, but rather that the fighting was more mutual in nature. That is why SWM can be seen in a humorous light - and in fact why Lilly had to keep herself from cracking a smile during the fracas, imo, something she would never do if Snape was a constant victim of the Marauders.

Anyway, if you like, I will relist all of the evidence, but perhaps you have already considered it and disagree, so I won't. But just so you know, there really are two (or more) ways to consider the situation, imo, and I just construe it distinctly. :)

Anyway, if you like, I will relist all of the evidence, but perhaps you have already considered it and disagree, so I won't.

I have already considered the evidence :) and no, I don't agree. :D Not entirely anyway. :) So, thanks for not rehashing it. :lol:

As a matter of fact, WWB, I don't regard SWM as the sum total of the Marauders/Snape feud. I never thought we were supposed to see it as such either. Particularly in the light of the DH revelations. I think that a lot of the hexing was indeed mutual and that Snape wasn't an innocent victim all the time -- as we see when he tries, uncomfortably, to laugh off Lily's discomfort at the Dark Magic that Avery and Mulciber hit Mary McDonald with: we have no canon evidence that Severus himself was involved in bullying students like Mary with Dark Magic, but he was certainly friends with creepy guys like Avery and Mulciber who were, and sadly he saw nothing wrong with their behaviour.

However, this leads me again to the moral conundrum that SWM faces us with: that bullying is always wrong, no matter who's doing it. And just because two charming, handsome young Gryffindors launch an unprovoked attack on this particular occasion on an oddball Slytherin kid who is into the Dark Arts and is himself no angel, like Lily Evans I'm not going to let either of them off the hook. :)

People really hate Snape, so it's OK for him to be bullied. :no:
I never thought it was okay exactly, but I didn't feel very sorry for him either. Keep in mind I was probably 13/14 when I first read the scene :p I didn't really see him as a victim either. He attacked James when he had his back turned - cowardly in my opinion and he was only really outnumbered 2-1 (with Lily there, it was even imo, she just chose to defend differently - with words). So I saw it as two on two, with Snape hexing pretty dirty too.

That kind of goes against the whole message of the HP saga, doesn't it? Or is it really OK for Gryffindors to bully Slytherins, but not the other way round? :whistle:
Bullying like Sirius and James participated in is not nice, but since they were young, stupid, felt ashamed of themselves later, and were (imo) overall good guys who grew up eventually; I can forgive them. Some Slytherins in the marauders era bullied with dark magic and grew up to be death eaters and continued to be death eaters (some, not all of course). That I don't find OK.

Bullying like Sirius and James participated in is not nice, but since they were young, stupid, felt ashamed of themselves later, and were (imo) overall good guys who grew up eventually; I can forgive them. Some Slytherins in the marauders era bullied with dark magic and grew up to be death eaters and continued to be death eaters (some, not all of course). That I don't find OK.

Ashamed? I dont think we are ever provided with any canon that suggests James or Sirius were ashamed of their actions. (Although, its been a while since I've read the series, so I could be wrong.) I think that Sirius' actions toward Snape in later life, suggested that he still disliked Snape, and IMO, had Dumbledore not had so much faith in Snape, Sirius would have loved a chance to duel him, at the very least. I dont think Sirius was ever ashamed of what he did to Snape during his Hogwarts years, but JMO.

Ashamed? I dont think we are ever provided with any canon that suggests James or Sirius were ashamed of their actions. (Although, its been a while since I've read the series, so I could be wrong.)
According to Sirius in "Career's Advice" in OOTP, yes, they were ashamed of their actions.

But Remus shook his head. "Did I ever tell you to lay off Snape?" he said. "Did I ever have the guts to tell you I thought you were out of order?"
"Yeah, well," said Sirius, "you made us feel ashamed of ourselves sometimes... that was something..."

According to Sirius in "Career's Advice" in OOTP, yes, they were ashamed of their actions.

"Sometimes." Doesnt sound like he is too ashamed of all of his actions though. It sounds to me like he still enjoyed picking on Snape on occaision. And I wonder to what extent?

"Sometimes." Doesnt sound like he is too ashamed of all of his actions though. It sounds to me like he still enjoyed picking on Snape on occaision. And I wonder to what extent?
You asked for canon on them feeling ashamed. "Sometimes" still means they were ashamed at times. At least, according to my interpretation.

You asked for canon on them feeling ashamed. "Sometimes" still means they were ashamed at times. At least, according to my interpretation.

Yes, thanks for providing the canon by the way.

And your right, it does mean they felt ashamed to an extent on some occaisions, or that at least Sirius did. I'm not sure he can actually speak for James.

I'm not sure he can actually speak for James.
In my opinion, Sirius could speak pretty well for James, seeing is how they were as close as brothers. James also doesn't have many people to speak for him, so it's perfectly reasonable for JKR to use Sirius to give us more information about James. Sirius also says, "You made us feel ashamed of ourselves sometimes." It's never refuted in canon either. I also think it's perfectly safe to assume James did feel ashamed - in my experience, most schoolyard bullies to feel ashamed of what they've done in the past. I'd find it harder to believe that James did not feel ashamed.

According to Sirius, James also acted like an idiot whenever Lily was around, trying to show off for her. I can't imagine him not feeling embarassed when looking back at the situation, because he failed to impress Lily, and could probably figure out why she wasn't impressed. We all do stupid things when we're nervous that we might not do otherwise imo. Imo, James just completely lost his head whenever he was around Lily, and did things he normally wouldn't have done if Lily wasn't there.

As a woman in my 40s, though, the supposed 'charm' and 'humour' of this scene totally escapes me. :)

And as a woman in my 20s (barely) who was bullied mercilessly in high school and middle school, the "humor" of the scene escapes me, too. I didn't like Snape very much at that point...but I started to feel sorry for him, and to see that maybe the way he'd turned out wasn't entirely his own fault. No one should be treated the way the Marauders treated him, regardless of how unsympathetic. It's inexcusable. I think that Harry's reaction indicates that Jo intended readers to feel the same way Harry did (upset, horrified), and that she was in no way condoning the behavior of her characters.

I think there is evidence, however, that both Sirius and James grew up. Sirius admits that he was young and foolish and a bit of a "prat" or "git", not sure which word he used, since I don't have OOTP handy). And I'd say that the fact that James wound up with Lily really does very strongly indicate that he outgrew it--I highly doubt Lily would have agreed to go out with James if he was still being cruel to Snape...and she certainly wouldn't have married him!

As for the scene of the Marauder's in SWM, I really don't think we were suppose to see it as all that funny. Jo is building a sympathy a bit here for Snape. We see him first in his awful and abusive home life and then are taken to a scene (which is safe to say happened more than once in similar occasions) where he is being bullied, ridiculed, and ganged up on by three/four classmates that were obviously more socially powerful.

That is heartbreaking in itself to see, which is why Harry had the feelings about his dad afterwards. For years, people that had been close to James told of what a brave and powerful person he had been, along with being a wonderful and loyal friend. He had his dad on a pedestal...most of us as readers did. But to see James act in such an awful way and take pleasure out of it was a bit disturbing, but I think it was what Jo was going for. We were suppose to see James and the Marauders as not these perfect and wonderful people anymore, but human 15 year old boys who took things too far on more than one occasion.

I think from SWM we are suppose to get a niche' for each Marauder's personality, Remus the passive stander by, Sirius the risk taker, James the show off, and Peter's sadistic humor. These aren't labels that I am sure they were that proud of later on in life, but I doubt they regretted much give Snape a hard time. I agree that there is evidence that not only James grew up, but also Remus. Peter, well we know the path he chose and I think Sirius was still quite the risk taker later in life and still held a grudge for his Slytherin schoolmate.

Where do you guys think the Marauders prepared the potions they were trying to figure out to become Animagi? I remember when Hermione and the trio was making the polyjuice potion they did it in the bathroom - but seeing as these guys were trying for three years, I would imagine they would have to find a less conspicuous place to do it. The fact is, nobody discovered them for 3 years, so they much have had a terrific hiding place.

Did they use potions? I thought it was a personal transfiguration - McGonagall never takes anything to change into a cat.

Did they use potions? I thought it was a personal transfiguration - McGonagall never takes anything to change into a cat.

That is a good point. However, I was thinking for wizards to initially become Animagi (being able to transfigure one's self into the 'inner animal') they would have to undergo some type of physiological change - preparation of the body in order for the body to accept the transfiguration. I got that idea because Remus said that the Ministry normally keeps a close eye on those working to become animagi as it can go terribly wrong. So it occurred to me that they would not likely have been attempting just the transfiguration bit for 3 years and not getting it right because something would have likely gone 'terribly wrong' during that time in so many attempts. So I imagined that the part that would go terribly wrong was the preparation of the body to transform via a potion - so that if the body preparation part had been done poorly, when the spell was said something horrible could happen instead of an effective transformation. The actual transformation itself didn't appear to be complicated (as we saw when Mcgonagall and Sirius did it). I could be mistaken though - perhaps the preparation consisted of some sort of mental preparation instead - it would be easier to find a place to work on it if that were the case.

Also, Moody turned Draco into a ferret, but that was temporary. I am not certain how it differed, but apparently to become a permanent animagus, one has to do more than just the transfiguration bit.

Hmmm...not convinced, just doesn't seem to make sense to me. If they had used a potion to transform, then they would not have learnt how to do the transformation so surely they would need to keep using the potion - which we know they didn't.

Also I'm sure that someone said that they learnt how to do the transformation. To me the word learnt is fairly clear. If potions came into it - I would imagine healing potions :)

As for the scene of the Marauder's in SWM, I really don't think we were suppose to see it as all that funny. Jo is building a sympathy a bit here for Snape. We see him first in his awful and abusive home life and then are taken to a scene (which is safe to say happened more than once in similar occasions) where he is being bullied, ridiculed, and ganged up on by three/four classmates that were obviously more socially powerful.

That is heartbreaking in itself to see, which is why Harry had the feelings about his dad afterwards. For years, people that had been close to James told of what a brave and powerful person he had been, along with being a wonderful and loyal friend. He had his dad on a pedestal...most of us as readers did. But to see James act in such an awful way and take pleasure out of it was a bit disturbing, but I think it was what Jo was going for. We were suppose to see James and the Marauders as not these perfect and wonderful people anymore, but human 15 year old boys who took things too far on more than one occasion.

Excellent and perceptive post. :tu:

I think from SWM we are suppose to get a niche' for each Marauder's personality, Remus the passive stander by, Sirius the risk taker, James the show off, and Peter's sadistic humor. These aren't labels that I am sure they were that proud of later on in life, but I doubt they regretted much give Snape a hard time. I agree that there is evidence that not only James grew up, but also Remus. Peter, well we know the path he chose and I think Sirius was still quite the risk taker later in life and still held a grudge for his Slytherin schoolmate.

I totally agree with this. The glimpses we get of each Marauder in this scene tell us a lot about them and their relationships with each other.

Where do you guys think the Marauders prepared the potions they were trying to figure out to become Animagi? I remember when Hermione and the trio was making the polyjuice potion they did it in the bathroom - but seeing as these guys were trying for three years, I would imagine they would have to find a less conspicuous place to do it. The fact is, nobody discovered them for 3 years, so they much have had a terrific hiding place.

The way I look at it is like this. Some people, like McGonagall, are born Animagi. But it is possible to become one rather than being born one. If you wanted to become one, you have to take a really, really complicated potion. Then you change into the animal and then you find the will to change back into a human. After you initially take the potion, you don't need a potion anymore to change from human to animal. It is just becomes based on will afterward. This is just the way I think it works.

But then why did it take Peter longer to work out how to do it - surely if it was a matter of taking a potion they would have all worked it out at about the same time?

Did they use potions? I thought it was a personal transfiguration - McGonagall never takes anything to change into a cat.

Remus Lupin did take a potion, to stop him transforming into a wolf at full moon.
He was the only one who wasn't an Animagi. The other Marauders studied Animagi to keep him company.

Hmmm...not convinced, just doesn't seem to make sense to me. If they had used a potion to transform, then they would not have learnt how to do the transformation so surely they would need to keep using the potion - which we know they didn't.

Also I'm sure that someone said that they learnt how to do the transformation. To me the word learnt is fairly clear. If potions came into it - I would imagine healing potions :)

Well I was thinking that you would only use the potion one time. It would prepare your body permanently with some type of physiological change that allowed one to transform at will via transfiguration. There is some support for this in that short term transformation utilizes a potion (polyjuice). But Dumbledore said it was an outstanding achievement and it did take them 3 years to figure it out, so I think there had to be more to it than just learning the words for a transfiguration spell. Mental preparation is another possibility.

I think what Moody did to Draco was pure transfiguration (just a transfiguration spell) which is why Draco did not become an Animagus (and to my knowledge, Moody or Fake Moody were not Animagi either).

Remus Lupin did take a potion, to stop him transforming into a wolf at full moon.
He was the only one who wasn't an Animagi. The other Marauders studied Animagi to keep him company.

That potion didn't stop him trasforming - it simply allowed him to retain control when he was in wolf form, so he wasn't a danger to anyone. :)

But then why did it take Peter longer to work out how to do it - surely if it was a matter of taking a potion they would have all worked it out at about the same time?

It only said that James and Sirius helped Peter, not that it took him longer to become one. But that could have been that he had trouble learning the transfiguration spell and whatever mental element is involved in causing the spell to work once his body was effectively ready for it - say he was ready to go physiologically with the permanent affects of a potion or some permanent change enacted via mental preparation - but he couldn't get the transfiguration spell right or the mental element right (by mental element I am talking in terms of causing the spell to work - kind of like in doing an unforgivable you have to mean it and that sort of thing).

So I imagined that the part that would go terribly wrong was the preparation of the body to transform via a potion - so that if the body preparation part had been done poorly, when the spell was said something horrible could happen instead of an effective transformation.
I also envisioned that one became an Animagus through a potion. A spell does not seem as if it would take three years to do. There had to be trial and error and time consuming preparation, and a potion of that magnitude takes exactly that.
But then why did it take Peter longer to work out how to do it - surely if it was a matter of taking a potion they would have all worked it out at about the same time?
"They became Animagi...It took them the best part of three years to work out how to do it. Your father and Sirius here were the cleverest students in the school, and lucky they were, because the Animagus transformation can go horribly wrong - one reason the Ministry keeps a close watch on those attempting to do it. Peter needed all the help he could get from James and Sirius. Finally, in our fifth year, they managed it. They could each turn into a different animal at will."
I think what Moody did to Draco was pure transfiguration (just a transfiguration spell) which is why Draco did not become an Animagus (and to my knowledge, Moody or Fake Moody were not Animagi either).
Correct. This was merely temporary human transfiguration (much like Krum in the Second Task). Animagi are different, for, once one accomplishes the transformation, the wizard can change into the animal at will (without a wand).

To answer your first question, I believe they brewed the potion in the Shrieking Shack, since Remus would have told them about it after they found out about his werewolf tendencies. It would be the perfect place, and they could have put a spell around it to protect it from Remus's destruction when he was in werewolf form.

Where do you guys think the Marauders prepared the potions they were trying to figure out to become Animagi? I remember when Hermione and the trio was making the polyjuice potion they did it in the bathroom - but seeing as these guys were trying for three years, I would imagine they would have to find a less conspicuous place to do it. The fact is, nobody discovered them for 3 years, so they much have had a terrific hiding place.

I always imagined they did it in some secret place of Hogwarts that they discovered during nightly wanderings. They must have had a lot of experience in the castle to write the Map, and they must have found some places that the trio never found, or bothered to look for.

Perhaps they stumbled upon the Room of Requirement and used that, not knowing what it was, and not being able to put it on the map because of it being unplottable?

I also envisioned that one became an Animagus through a potion. A spell does not seem as if it would take three years to do. There had to be trial and error and time consuming preparation, and a potion of that magnitude takes exactly that.

I imagined that, as well. I always thought of it as a kind of Polyjuice potion but much more complex and dangerous, with some kind of ingredient (or multiple ingredients) that made the ability to transform at will permanent. And if the Polyjuice potion, which only works for an hour, takes a month to brew, I'd imagine an animagus potion would take much, much longer, which fits.

Edit:

I'm not sure if this was stated in the books (I need a reread :p) but did Remus ever know, during those years, that James, Sirius, and Peter were planning to become animagi, or was it their little surprise for him? I figure Remus would be smart enough to realise they were up to something, so I figured he knew all along. Not sure if it was canon or not, though.

The way I look at it is like this. Some people, like McGonagall, are born Animagi. But it is possible to become one rather than being born one. If you wanted to become one, you have to take a really, really complicated potion. Then you change into the animal and then you find the will to change back into a human. After you initially take the potion, you don't need a potion anymore to change from human to animal. It is just becomes based on will afterward. This is just the way I think it works.

I don't think it's ever stated that people are born animagi. As far as canon indicates, it's something that one has to work for and it's a very difficult task to become an animagus. We don't know how one becomes an animagus, but it has to be something that takes a while to make. I always thought a potion because the Marauders took three years to become animagi, thus a potion is the only one that fits, IMO.

Perhaps they stumbled upon the Room of Requirement and used that, not knowing what it was, and not being able to put it on the map because of it being unplottable?

I love the idea of the Room of Requirement, but I think it is only unplottable if one hopes it to be. ;) My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I think Harry could see all the D.A. members names on the Map in OotP . . . ?

And, actually, I don't think they had the Marauder's Map when they were working on becoming unregistered animagi. They said that after all their nighttime wanderings and discovery about the castle grounds did they make the Map.

I'm not sure if this was stated in the books (I need a reread :p) but did Remus ever know, during those years, that James, Sirius, and Peter were planning to become animagi, or was it their little surprise for him? I figure Remus would be smart enough to realise they were up to something, so I figured he knew all along. Not sure if it was canon or not, though.

I think Remus most likely knew. He knew how long it took and that Peter needed help. Those aren't very strong examples to prove that Remus knew, though. And I doubt that the others could make it a surprise since they had to take time to become an animagus.

I love the idea of the Room of Requirement, but I think it is only unplottable if one hopes it to be. ;) My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I think Harry could see all the D.A. members names on the Map in OotP . . . ?

I couldn't quite remember, either, but I checked the Lexicon and it said the Room was simply unplottable... and wow, I really do need a reread, I cannot for the life of me remember if he could see them on the map.


And, actually, I don't think they had the Marauder's Map when they were working on becoming [unregistered animagi. They said that after all their nighttime wanderings and discovery about the castle grounds did they make the Map.

Oh, what I meant was that they couldn't later put the room on the map because it was unplottable. I figured they would have found the room, and tried to put it on the map but wouldn't be able to do it for magical reasons, or something like that.



I think Remus most likely knew. He knew how long it took and that Peter needed help. Those aren't very strong examples to prove that Remus knew, though. And I doubt that the others could make it a surprise since they had to take time to become an animagus.

That's what I thought, too, but then again, the others could have just told Remus all about their experiences making the potion. It does seem odd that Remus didn't imply he was in on making it; considering how smart Remus is, he could have really helped with it... but it just doesn't seem very Marauders-esque to make it a surprise - unless it was a funny one, of course. :p

That's what I thought, too, but then again, the others could have just told Remus all about their experiences making the potion. It does seem odd that Remus didn't imply he was in on making it; considering how smart Remus is, he could have really helped with it... but it just doesn't seem very Marauders-esque to make it a surprise - unless it was a funny one, of course. :p
I also wonder when Sirius, Remus, and Peter let Remus know that they knew he was a werewolf? Would they wait a bit before telling him, because they were worried about his reaction? Or did they tell him they knew right after they found out?

I also wonder when Sirius, Remus, and Peter let Remus know that they knew he was a werewolf? Would they wait a bit before telling him, because they were worried about his reaction? Or did they tell him they knew right after they found out?

I imagine Remus was somewhat introverted and distant before they figured out he was a werewolf because he didn't want them too close in fear that they would figure out what he was. So when they did figure it out, I think they would tell him right away that they knew in hopes that he wouldn't be so distant anymore.

I would imagine Remus knew about the other's Mauraders' attempt to become animagi. But Remus was not one to take undue credit, so even if he was able to help here and there (as was Peter perhaps), neither of them were the cleverest in their year. James and Sirius were which infers that they would have been exceedingly clever at potions, transfiguration, - or any other magics that were required. But more than just book-cleverness, if Sirius is any indication, they appeared to have an innate cleverness when it came to magical disciplines. So Remus would acknowledge their part in making it all happen without taking any credit for his assistive efforts, imo, that matches his character as portrayed.

Remus went on to become quite a gifted wizard in his own right, so it is not to say he was not talented. However, Imo, wizards develop at differing rates and with differing skills and it just so happened that two of his best friends were extraordinarily gifted in a variety of magical disciplines at an early age.

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
I think Remus and Peter were happy to be included and didn't really mind. They were all very close - the other three became animagi for Remus.
Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?
Maybe by the process of elimination? Maybe Peter tried to make everyone suspicious of each other so they didn't think of him.
James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?
Both! They were very noble to do it for Remus, but probably thought they'd get quite a lot of fun out of it too.
What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?
They probably found it quite endearing. When she started going out with James she probably became quite good mates with all of them, but understood that they still needed time as a group.
James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?
I'm sure they expected it and were not surprised or upset.
Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?
I reckon he probably missed his old friends and sometimes regretted it. I don't know if the others would forgive him, I mean it would be different if he'd just caused Lily and James to die, but I don't know if they'd forgive him for betraying their son to Voldy.
Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?
I expect James, Sirius and Remus were very eager, and Peter did it because they did, and possibly on Voldy's orders, to get inside information (if he was already working for him).
The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?
If he was in Gryffindor they still probably wouldn't have gotten along, IMO, but may have been more civil to eachother. I think the Marauders picked on Snape more, but he wouldn't have been the only one they pranked.
How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?
I think they are pretty similar, although the Marauders went slightly further and were slightly more rebellious.
Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?
My opinions of them stayed reasonably similar, although I was a little disapointed with Remus over the whole argument with Harry saga. Seeing Sirius' room and the letter was sweet and I loved the reunion scene in the forest.
Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?
Probably Sirius. He is so incredibly loyal, and risks a lot to be a good Godfather to Harry. On a side note, I would like to point out that part of his appeal is his good looks. :drool: Yeah, I think the others appreciated his loyalty, although all three non-traitors were pretty loyal.

I cannot wait for June 11th. Apparently the prequel is set 3 years before Harry is born; that is prime Marauder territory. So excited!

Let's keep this on the Character Analysis, the Prequel can be discussed in the according thread. Thanks. :)

[QUOTE] How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?

I don't think they felt inferior, Remus and Peter were friends with two people who were as close as brothers, but Remus and Peter were also close to James and Sirius- when Remus realises Sirius was innocent, remember, he embraces him like a brother. Also, I'm sure that the other Marauders treated Wormtail well- otherwise he wouldn't have looked up to them- their teasing in SWM reminds me a lot of Fred and George teasing Ron- a bit unkind, but with no real malice behind it as there would be with a taunt from, say Malfoy. I imagine it was something along the lines of "He's one of us, so we can tease him, but woe betide anyone else who does"



Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?

According to Remus, James considered it terrible to mistrust a friend, so I'm thinking the suspicion came from outside the Marauder group, or from Sirius. But they did know for certain that someone close to them was passing information to Voldemort. I reckon nobody believed that Peter, who hero-worshipped James and Sirius, and who at the age of 20 probably still looked up to them would betray them. That left Remus as the suspect. I don't think Peter would have gone about actively discrediting Remus- that could have raised flags, a risk Voldemort wouldn't have wanted to take.



James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?

Both, I think. Yes, they were doing it to help Remus with his transformations, but these were also a group of some of the most mischievous boys to attend Hogwarts- Rosmerta had never seen such a pair of troublemakers- so it probably appealed to their sense of adventure and disregard for the rules too.


What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?

It's already been discussed in the James/Lily thread and I doubt that James was asking Lily out every few days and obsessing over her in front of his friends throughout their schooldays. He had too much self-respect for that. And if he had done that, Sirius for one, would have teased him relentlessly.
I think once the Marauders knew James fancied Lily they were supportive, maybe giving advice, maybe telling him to move on after the SWM incident, as Hermione advised Ginny. It seems all the Marauders grew close to Lily as James did- but they had already been in the same House for years, so they can't have been too distant from each other, IMO. After James and Lily got together, Lily refers to the Marauders by their nicknames and thinks of them as family, as much as James does, it seems to me and these feelings were reciprocated.



James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?

I reckon they understood, Harry was James' first child and he was naturally going to pick his closest friend, the one who was like a brother to him. Perhaps they would have expected to become godfathers to later children, that may have been the intention. :upset::no:



Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?

I don't think he was ever happy with his decision, it was made to save his own skin, but he had no quality of life afterwards, twelve years as a rat and then four being treated shabbily by Voldemort, so from a purely selfish point of view, he wasn't happy with it. Although, he doesn't show any genuine remorse either, in the Shack in PoA, he doesn't beg for forgiveness, just tries again to save his own skin.


Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?

I think James, Sirius and Remus would have been willing to join, maybe Remus would have been uncertain about how his lycanthropy would be received by the Order, but he would have wanted to fight Voldemort and so plunged into it. I believe Peter wanted to do the right thing, initially, and tried but when he saw the true cost of the war, Order members falling, etc, he realised what it could cost him and turned traitor.

The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?


We are told that James and Sirius liked to hex lots of people- just because they could- Snape came in for particular attention because of his fixation
with dark magic. I'm sure they pranked other students who were into the Dark Arts too, we just hear about Snape becasue he is the only one who is relevant to the bigger picture. I think if Snape had been in Gryffindor, they would have been much less likely to prank him as often, or to dislike him as much.


How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?

I think they were very like the twins, full of mischief and with firm ideas of what they liked and disliked- remember the twins are very anti-Slytherin and Dark Arts too. Plus, some of the twins' pranks aren't exactly good ideas- e.g. shoving Montague into the Vanishing Cabinet with no idea where he'd end up. Because we know the twins so much better, it's easier, I think, for some fans to laugh this off than the Marauders' pranks on Snape. (Apart from the Sirius-Snape-werewolf Remus incident, which was...)



Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?


I think they were portrayed pretty favourably, apart from Remus leaving Tonks, which is an uderstandable mistake when you think of his insecurities and inferiority complex. Was so glad they reunited befre their deaths. Even Wormtail, one of my least favourite characters, redeemed himelf very slightly, one moment of mercy, of doing the right thing and one of his previous wrongdoings cost him his life for it. The Marauders and Lily accompanying Harry into the Forest was one of the saddest parts of the series for me.

Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?


Sirius. I love his rebellious streak and his devotion to the people he cares about- he would ahve done anything for his friends and later, for Harry. I love the fact that despite his upbringing he was an openminded, loving tolerant individual (except when it came to Kreacher)

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?

Becuase they were such good friends I think that they may have of felt a little left out. But to his groupe of friends James and Sirius seemed to really love them like brothers.

Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?

Maybe he just wanted to get back at all of them.

James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?

It was both I think. It was a way for them to get colser as friends. It was also a way of it all becoming one big adventure for them.

What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?

They will probly have of found it sligtly anoying after a while. But they will have of found it funny as well. Becuse they are such good friends they will have of supported him in his obsession.

How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?

I think that she may have of made James more reckless. He will have of messed around as a way of impressing her.

James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?

I think they would have of understood. They will have known that they had been best friends from the begging. But this could also have of been part of the reason why Peter was so angry and did this to them.

Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?

I don't think they would have of forgiven him. He hurt them so much they would not be able to do it. I think that he was so swayn by Voldemort that he could not see clearly what what he was doing was hurting the peopul that loved him the most.

Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?

I think that they would have all talked about the pro's and cons of joining. They will have of all made the desision to go ahead.

The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?

I thinkt that if Snape had of been in Gryffindor that things would have of been diffrent. If he was know for his knowlage in the dark arts, then being in Slytherin would have of made it worce. They would have of felt more against him.

How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?

I think that the Weasly twins and Sirius and James were all creepily simmiler. They all liked the jokes and the gags. I think that they were about as bad as each other.

Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?

I think that it did change my mind a little. You would always seem them from the eyes of the peopul who loved them and put up with the high-jinks. But then you see them from the eyes of someone different. It makes you re-think, what you think about them.

Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?


I liked Remus best. Becuse he was level headed. He was also passinoat but he always knew when to be. I think that the others also apprisicated what kind of person he was. They knew that he would look after them.

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
I think Peter did indeed feel out of the loop. While awed at being included in the gang, and grateful for their friendship, I think he was always aware of himself as a tag along. Thats the most prominent reason for his betrayal. As for Remus, I think he was far more included in the group. I feel that while he may not have been as close to either of them as they were to each other, he was very much part of the group.

Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all? I think Peter would have tried to encourage the suspicion toward Remus, and the silghtest hints of suspician from his closest friends would have probably caused Remus to become reclusive. This would have fueled their suspician. I also think him, as the most intellegent, and perhaps most enigmatic seemed more likely to be a traitor than weak, grovellilng, adoring Peter. They knew there was a traitor close in the innter circle. It was process of elimination, rather than a personal attack at Remus.

James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous? Both.

Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance? I think he would have regretted the decision. Upon realising how un-glamourous and horrific the dark side really was, and what it meant for his friends lives, he would have deeply regretted it. But being the weak character he is, he got in too far and could not back out. I don't think Remus and Sirius would ever forgive him. He knowingly sent Lily and James to their deaths. There is no room for forgiveness of that.

The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start? I think Sirus and James singled him out from the very beginning as an easy victim, and this was accentuated by his immersion in the dark arts, and their intense dislike for this. If he were sorted into Gryffindor I think things would have been completely different. Snape would have become a completely different person, and he and Lily would have had a long lasting, and far deeper relationship.

Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly? I think they all came out more human, and ultimately more favourable. Peter redeemed himself as much as he was ever going to. Sirius was given a past and a deeper connection to Harry, Lily and James through that letter from Lily, and the scene in his bedroom. Remus, who got the most focus of the 4 of them, was made human, flawed and more interesting. I really liked the way JKR wrote him in DH. And the "Into the forest again" scene really solidified their presence in the books and importance to Harry.

Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?
Sirius. closley followed by Remus. Sirius because he is daring, reckless, deeply flawed, loyal and has a flying motorcycle. Remus because he's just so lovable!!

James had loving parent so he would have a better sense of right and wrong, I think and would want to honor his parent's teachings while Sirius sort of dis-owned his parents and completely disregarded them so he would have less of a limit than James as we see when he told Snape how to get past the Womping Willow.

I think the reason why James honored his parents is that he had loving parents - as you so rightly said - but also that his parents didn't believe things that he felt were wrong. Sirius could have been treated well by his parents like Regulus had he believed the same things as they attempted to teach him. The only question is how and when Sirius decided that his parents were wrong for their attitude towards Muggles and Muggleborns.

He was insanely reckless and I think this may also come from his Slyherin genes and the Black legacy. All Blacks seem to be quite passionate and dangerous.

:agree: True. J.K. Rowling said something similar.

ImmeritusAt the launch of Goblet of Fire at King's Cross, London, I shook hands with a woman who leaned forward and whispered conspiratorially, 'Sirius Black is sexy, right?' And yes, of course she was right, as the Immeritus club know. The best-looking, most rebellious, most dangerous of the four marauders... and to answer one burning question on the discussion boards, his eyes are grey.

while James was more like Ron in that he was a little tactless and clueless at times (for instance when he doesn't understand why Lily doesn't like him in SWM and Sirius explains why).

Is James really more tactless than Sirius was? I think they were both equally as tactless.

I believe James would have to be mentally slow not to understand that she was stating he was conceited (synonymous with fat head). James was deeply humiliated and he knew exactly what Lily meant, so he reached out for support from Sirius and didn't get it. Hence, his subsequent anger, not at Sirius, but in general because Sirius simply stated what the whole crowd was thinking and in my opinion, everyone in the crowd "got it". Canon says that James was highly intelligent, and I honestly do not believe there was any way he missed what Lily meant.

I doubt James missed what Lily meant. She was yelling at him, after all. :lol: I agree, I do think that James was seeking reasurrance from Sirius. I think that his anger, however, was a poorly disguised attempt to make it seem like Lily's opinion didn't matter to him.

I am not saying that James or Sirius could not be clueless at times, I feel everyone is now and again, however, I do not feel evidence points to either being less perceptive than the other. My apologies to the Lily/Sirius shippers, :lol:, but I do not believe that James was shown to be any less perceptive than Sirius. However, I would agree that Sirius was also perceptive. I do have doubts about Lily considering how long I believe it took her to correctly perceive that Snape was not going to be the person she believed he could be. I don't recall any evidence of her being perceptive at all, however, I don't think I could make a judgment call of any weight since we have such a scant amount of evidence about her.

I don't think that her blindness to Snape's nature means that Lily wasn't perceptive. It could mean that she was unwilling to acknowledge the truth. Dumbledore admits that was the case with Grindelwald.

On another point, in my opinion, in literature, maturity does not mean you lose your sense of humor or not use it in a tense situation, imo. Imo, much older people in canon are shown to have the same attitude that Sirius and James had in literature - it is a humorous duo and generally in serious situations. For example Anakin and Obi-Wan from Star Wars (23 and 39 respectively). Fierce warriors with the same type of humor not only between themselves, but when dealing with officials, senators and heads of state - it is a way of easing tension and frankly, imo, a gift for the reader.

Amen! :tu: I don't think that being mature means that you can't have a sense of a humor. Plenty of mature people can still have a laugh. I didn't see Sirius' and James' behavior to mean that they didn't mature. It just showed that they had a sense of humor. Maturity brings newfound perspective on life and wisdom that is gained through experience, not loss of a sense of humor.

Is James really more tactless than Sirius was? I think they were both equally as tactless.

I agree, but only when the occassion called for it in their opinion, :lol:.

I doubt James missed what Lily meant. She was yelling at him, after all. :lol: I agree, I do think that James was seeking reasurrance from Sirius. I think that his anger, however, was a poorly disguised attempt to make it seem like Lily's opinion didn't matter to him.

Yup, that was my reading too, I agree. The anger definitely covered for pretense that Lily's words didn't matter. Everyone knew what she meant and everyone knew he felt humiliated, imo.

I don't think that her blindness to Snape's nature means that Lily wasn't perceptive. It could mean that she was unwilling to acknowledge the truth. Dumbledore admits that was the case with Grindelwald.

I agree, that is why I added that last part, :lol:. She wasn't showing perception in that instance, but that could have easily been because she was unwilling acknowledge the truth - I agree. I too believe she was likely perceptive. I think both James and Lily were which is why they ended up soulmates.

Amen! :tu: I don't think that being mature means that you can't have a sense of a humor. Plenty of mature people can still have a laugh. I didn't see Sirius' and James' behavior to mean that they didn't mature. It just showed that they had a sense of humor. Maturity brings newfound perspective on life and wisdom that is gained through experience, not loss of a sense of humor.

Well said. :tu:.

I always figured that it came down to the point where the four Marauders had to face the fact that one of them was the betrayer. Perhaps the last whereabouts of the Potters had been revealed and only they and Dumbledore knew of it. Sirius and Remus trusted Dumbledore not to be the betrayer and both felt Peter was too dense to be the one. That left only the two of them to suspect one another. James, I think, suspected Dumbledore and tried to convince Lily of it (hence her letter to Sirius). Dumbledore had borrowed James' cloak and had a rather tarnished past. Plus the secretive way Dumbledore operated would make anyone suspicious. :lol:

I respectfully disagree with you, about James's suspicions about Dumbledore. :) I always thought that James and Lily were pretty irresponsible when it came to protecting themselves and Harry, especially when they knew they were targets and that Voldemort had a spy in the Order, who had been passing information that led to the downfall of many of the Order members, like Moodys says in OOTP, where the DEs picked the Order members off one by one IMO.

I agree with you on the fact that both Sirius and Remus thought Peter too dense and so that left only them. That's where I think Remus's werewolf past came into play. It was that or Sirius's family. Regulus and Bellatrix were DEs and his family supporters of Voldemort and Narcissa married to Lucius who was also a DE.

But Sirius managed to convince James that Remus may be the traitor and so Peter would be a better bet to be SK, when they made the switch. The fact Peter was the SK, makes me think that James agreed.

I really don't think James or Lily thought Dumbledore was someone who could not be trusted, mainly because they were still in the Order. Would they still be members of the Order, if they felt Dumbledore to be evil, because they were following his leadership in the war and they did listen to him about going under the Fidelus, because of the spy. They wouldn't if they did not trust him IMO. :)

I think it was far more simple than that. Dumbledore was the most important wizard in the magical world. And he was busy running the Order and fighting Voldemort and others while also running Hogwarts. Dumbledore was the only one that Voldemort ever feared. They knew how to perform the spell themselves and figured that they could trust their small circle of friends that they had known for 10 and had trusted with their deepest secrets (being Animagi and Remus's lycanthropy). So they decided to spare Dumbledore an additional burden and didn't make him Secret Keeper.

I don't remember canon that stated that Sirius convinced James that Remus was the spy.

No, canon does not state that Sirius convinced James that the traitor was Remus. But in POA, Sirius apologizes to Remus for thinking him to be the spy, and Remus says the same.

So Sirius and Remus believed each other as the spy. Neither thought Peter was. Remus, because he was a werewolf and Sirius, because he came from a DE family IMO.

But the fact James agreed to switch SKs from Sirius to Peter without telling Remus, makes me think that both James and Lily accepted and also believed Sirius's suspicions about Remus. Had Remus known about the switch, Sirius would have never gone to Azkaban IMO. So Remus was excluded and the switch made IMO.

I don't remember canon that stated that Sirius convinced James that Remus was the spy.

There isn't any. The only thing we have on that point is Remus telling Harry that James would have considered it the height of dishonor not to trust his friends - which is the exact opposite, imo. Nor is there canon that James and Lily were aware that Remus didn't know about the switch.

I don't feel that JKR was attempting to make a statement about the trust that James and Lily placed in their friends - that is what friends generally do, imo. I feel she emphasized the assailants. If Snape hadn't relayed the prophecy to Voldemort, the Dark Lord would not have gotten a hold of Peter and had access to the Potters. If the three hadn't conspired in that way, the Potter's wouldn't have been placed in a position where they had to trust anyone. Blaming or implicating the victims when they act in good faith does not work in law and I don't believe JKR was attempting to do so in this situation.

If anything, I think that Peter convinced them to do the switch. It benefitted him and made him important to Voldemort.

If anything, I think that Peter convinced them to do the switch. It benefitted him and made him important to Voldemort.

I believe Sirius admitted "I as good as killed them, I was the one who persuaded them to use Peter as Secret Keeper" (paraphrased) in the Shrieking Shack. It seems so that it was Sirius' idea, unless you're suggesting Peter subtly or not so subtly dropped hints about how Sirius would be the obvious choice and the first port of call for Death Eaters. I'm not sure if Peter actively sought the opportunity to become Secret Keeper, I don't like to think he was that determined to betray his friends. I do think though, he jumped at the opportunity when it came up, seeing his way of securing his safe position with the Dark Lord.



No, canon does not state that Sirius convinced James that the traitor was Remus. But in POA, Sirius apologizes to Remus for thinking him to be the spy, and Remus says the same.

So Sirius and Remus believed each other as the spy. Neither thought Peter was. Remus, because he was a werewolf and Sirius, because he came from a DE family IMO.

But the fact James agreed to switch SKs from Sirius to Peter without telling Remus, makes me think that both James and Lily accepted and also believed Sirius's suspicions about Remus. Had Remus known about the switch, Sirius would have never gone to Azkaban IMO. So Remus was excluded and the switch made IMO.


Remus tells us in DH that James abhorred the idea of being suspicious of his friends. It seems, however that Sirius was more cynical and open to believing there was a traitor within the group, he just fingered the wrong one. I'm thinking he proposed the change to James and Lily without mentioning his suspicions about Remus. In addition to Sirius himself being an obvious choice, he could have argued that Remus would have been a second more likely choice than Peter, that Remus had enough on his plate with transformations to deal with.

Furry Dice, that's a great point about Sirius persuading the Potters. :)

Lupin's eys suddenly widenend, as though he was seeing something beyond Black, something none of the rest could see, '-- unless he was the one ... unless you switched without telling me?' bold mine

Sirius had persuaded James and Lily to make the switch without informing Remus, and I think James by accepting makes me feel he accepted Sirius's suspicions about Remus IMO.

Sirius had persuaded James and Lily to make the switch without informing Remus, and I think James by accepting makes me feel he accepted Sirius's suspicions about Remus IMO.


I'm not sure he did, Sirius and Wormtail could have, for completely different reasons have persuaded James and Lily not to tell Remus about the switch. Excuses that didn't bring up suspicions about Remus' loyalties could have been used - Remus locked himself in somewhere at full moon, could easily have been captured, forcefed Veritaserum while still weak when he came round in the morning, the less people that knew, the less people that were at risk, etc.
While I'll admit it's possible that Remus might not have known that James was persuaded to mistrust him, I find it hard to believe that he and Sirius didn't discuss the circumstances in detail when they were reunited after the Order reformed.

In POA itself Sirius asks Remus to forgive him for suspecting him and Remus asks the same from Sirius.

'....Wouldn't Sirius have told you, if they changed the plan?'

'Not if he thought I was the spy Peter,' said Lupin, who was now rolling up his sleeves. 'And you will in turn forgive me for believing you were the spy?'

'Forgive me Remus?'bold mine

I think we have it in canon that Sirius arranged for the switch because he thought Remus was the spy and persuaded James & Lily to accept it. By accepting they, they too agreed IMO. :)

I think we have it in canon that Sirius arranged for the switch because he thought Remus was the spy and persuaded James & Lily to accept it. By accepting they, they too agreed IMO. :)

Oh, absolutely, I agree Sirius suspected Remus. However, I think he could have persuaded James and Lily to switch without basing it on his suspicions. I'm basing this on Remus' assertion that James would have considered it the "height of didhonour" or similar, to mistrust his friends- I think he would have been aware at that point if James had suspected him in 1981.

Oh, absolutely, I agree Sirius suspected Remus. However, I think he could have persuaded James and Lily to switch without basing it on his suspicions. I'm basing this on Remus' assertion that James would have considered it the "height of didhonour" or similar, to mistrust his friends- I think he would have been aware at that point if James had suspected him in 1981.

I agree and there was only a week, and likely little to no opportunity for anyone to tell Remus, especially the Potters since he had no access to the house. But more importantly, Remus was not at Godric's when the Potters died and he loved them dearly and I believe would have been there with Sirius and/or Hagrid after it happened if he'd been around. I don't believe he was because there is no mention of him at all.

fallen warrior -- DH
Harry knew what Remus was getting at; that his father had been betrayed by Peter Pettigrew. He felt irrationally angry.

I think in POA Sirius tells Remus the real reason; that he and Remus suspected eah other of being traitors. Now james and Lily knew about a traitor close to them, handing Voldmeort information about them and the Order.

Dumbledore asked them to go under the Fidelus. Then, just a few days later Sirius persuades James to make the switch. What would he have told James to make the switch from himself to Peter? Peter was weak and not wizard enough to keep the secret to himself if captured.

In POA, Sirius admits that he did not tell Remus the secret because he thought Remus was the spy. I think James agreed with Sirius, simply because he could not deny the fact that one among the three was a traitor. That was information they knew from Dumbledore and could not ignore. It was why they went under the Fidelus in the first place. So by reasoning, I feel that James, Lily and everyone knew there was a traitor; James and Lily went under the Fidelus with Sirius as SK and the secret knwon to Peter, Remus and Dumbldeore. Then Sirius makes the switch without telling Remus and Dumbeldore, managing to persuade James IMO.

How was that done? Would not James ask Sirius whether Remus was not better than Peter? Would not James tell Sirius that if Remus was away, they could wait until he came, because there was no urgency; they were already under the Fidelus? IMO

If Sirius managed to persuade James and Lily, I think the only way he could have done that was by stating his suspicions that he thought Remus was a spy and they must beware of him IMO.

I think in POA Sirius tells Remus the real reason; that he and Remus suspected eah other of being traitors. Now james and Lily knew about a traitor close to them, handing Voldmeort information about them and the Order.

Dumbledore asked them to go under the Fidelus. Then, just a few days later Sirius persuades James to make the switch. What would he have told James to make the switch from himself to Peter? Peter was weak and not wizard enough to keep the secret to himself if captured.

In POA, Sirius admits that he did not tell Remus the secret because he thought Remus was the spy. I think James agreed with Sirius, simply because he could not deny the fact that one among the three was a traitor. That was information they knew from Dumbledore and could not ignore. It was why they went under the Fidelus in the first place. So by reasoning, I feel that James, Lily and everyone knew there was a traitor; James and Lily went under the Fidelus with Sirius as SK and the secret knwon to Peter, Remus and Dumbldeore. Then Sirius makes the switch without telling Remus and Dumbeldore, managing to persuade James IMO.

How was that done? Would not James ask Sirius whether Remus was not better than Peter? Would not James tell Sirius that if Remus was away, they could wait until he came, because there was no urgency; they were already under the Fidelus? IMO

If Sirius managed to persuade James and Lily, I think the only way he could have done that was by stating his suspicions that he thought Remus was a spy and they must beware of him IMO.


The thing about Peter being "less of a wizard" than Sirius and Remus was the whole point in Sirius' eyes -he would be the least likely suspect for a Death Eater, so they could have reasoned that Remus would be the next likely target if Sirius was eliminated. I'm just not sure that someone who trusted his friends as much as we are told James did would have readily suspected Remus or been persuaded to suspect Remus. Suspecting someone close to the Potters needn't limit the potential supects to the Marauders, I'm sure they were close to others in the Order, Lilys' letter to Sirius mentions crying alll night after one paerticular death, can't remember whose.

In that letter Lily makes no mention of Remus. While I think you and WWB have a point, I still feel Sirius and James were very close to each other for Sirius to conceal his suspicions about anyone, including Remus and why should Sirius conceal his suspicions about Remus to James in the first place? There was no need for him to, I feel and I think Remus does not make a mention of it to harry in DH, because he too, had thought Sirius was the traitor.

And if Sirius had convinced James remus was the traitor, then James would have had to agree. Remus may have known that and perhaps did not blmae James, because it was war at that time IMO.

While the spy could have been anyone in the Order, he also had to be someone close to the Potters. We are not told about anyone else close to the Potters, in touch with them and capable of handing out information to Voldmeort.

That leaves the three friends only. Peter was declared unfil to be DE, which left Sirius and Remus.

And if the DEs caught hold of Peter, the Marauders would also know that he would spill the beans about the present SK and everything, under torture. I think Peter was made SK, only because Sirius did not want Remus to know about the switch IMO.

BTW, Lily cried all evening after she heard the McKinnons were killed.

In that letter Lily makes no mention of Remus. While I think you and WWB have a point, I still feel Sirius and James were very close to each other for Sirius to conceal his suspicions about anyone, including Remus and why should Sirius conceal his suspicions about Remus to James in the first place? There was no need for him to, I feel and I think Remus does not make a mention of it to harry in DH, because he too, had thought Sirius was the traitor.

I respect your view, but I feel that even if Sirius and Remus had expressed to James their distrust of the other, James would have told them they were nuts and continued to have faith in both.

And if Sirius had convinced James remus was the traitor, then James would have had to agree. IMO.

If he had convinced him, then that would mean James would believe it; however, I don't feel there is canon that Sirius even told him, let alone convinced him. I feel that James would not be convinced that it was any of his friends.

While the spy could have been anyone in the Order, he also had to be someone close to the Potters. We are not told about anyone else close to the Potters, in touch with them and capable of handing out information to Voldmeort.

In my opinion, James and Lily may have been close to many people in the Order - we simply do not know their relations with others, but if Lily cried for a whole day when one of the Order members died, I would imagine she had been close to that person. Further, there is evidence that James and Lily were given reason to doubt Dumbledore (as her letter stated) and Dumbledore had "borrowed" their invisibility cloak - a hiding device - while they were in hiding. Imo, that would be adequate reason for them to lack faith in his judgment. It was Dumbledore who told them it was someone close to them who was the betrayer - and if they didn't trust him, they might not have had complete faith in his statement. Finally, I believe anyone could have been a spy in the Order, but imo, James and Lily did not believe it was their friends.

And if the DEs caught hold of Peter, the Marauders would also know that he would spill the beans about the present SK and everything, under torture. I think Peter was made SK, only because Sirius did not want Remus to know about the switch IMO.

Sirius himself states in canon why he switched to Peter. It was because he felt (and convinced the Potters) that Peter would be the very last person Voldemort would approach because he lacked talent (POA). There is no further canon to indicate that Sirius was not speaking the truth, imo. The only thing we know is that Remus suspected Sirius and Sirius suspected Remus - but neither indicated that James and Lily agreed with them or that they even told James and Lily. (POA)

I respect your view, but I don't believe there is any canon to support the notion that James did not trust his friends compeltely as stated in canon - indeed Remus said he would have thought it the height of dishonor to do otherwise (DH). Further, he was trying to convince Harry that his father was wrong and Harry was being too trusting - I believe it would have been much easier to convince Harry by stating that even his father hadn't been as trusting as Harry was being because he hadn't trusted Remus - but Remus didn't say that. Imo, there would be no reason for Remus to lie to Harry in order to convince him of the opposite fact than that he was lying about. Why would Remus tell such an elaborate lie when the truth would better serve him?

Why would Remus tell such an elaborate lie when the truth would better serve him?

I don't think Remus lied. James may have thought it the height of dishonour to suspect his friends unnecessarily, but what if Sirius could convince him? Of course my whole point lies in the fact a switch was made and Remus was unaware of it. And in POA, Sirius agrees when Remus tells him that he did not know about the switch because Sirius thought Remus was the spy.

There is no reason why Sirius should not tell his suspicions about Remus to James IMO.

The switch was made and Remus did not know IMO.

Sirius agrees that Remus did not know about the switch because he was thought to be the spy IMO. The last two are canon.

Based on this I have concluded that James too, would have known about Sirius's suspicions and would have agreed to the switch because of that.

The fact James agreed to the switch is canon, but I am concluding James too agreed because the switch was made without Remus's knowledge IMO.

In which case, having been convinced by Sirius that Remus was the spy, James would not have minded because he was not merely suspecting; based on Dumbledore's information, James had narrowed down the spy. That would have made it acceptable for James as well IMO.

Remus would have shrugged it off, mainly because that was a turbulent period where everyone was suspicious and scared of everyone else. And he would have forgiven because they were his first friends who accepted him so whole heartedly IMO.

The last paragraphs are conclusions I have reached from conversations in canon. :)

I don't think Remus lied. James may have thought it the height of dishonour to suspect his friends unnecessarily, but what if Sirius could convince him? Of course my whole point lies in the fact a switch was made and Remus was unaware of it. And in POA, Sirius agrees when Remus tells him that he did not know about the switch because Sirius thought Remus was the spy.

There is no reason why Sirius should not tell his suspicions about Remus to James IMO.

The switch was made and Remus did not know IMO.

Sirius agrees that Remus did not know about the switch because he was thought to be the spy IMO. The last two are canon.

Based on this I have concluded that James too, would have known about Sirius's suspicions and would have agreed to the switch because of that.

The fact James agreed to the switch is canon, but I am concluding James too agreed because the switch was made without Remus's knowledge IMO.

In which case, having been convinced by Sirius that Remus was the spy, James would not have minded because he was not merely suspecting; based on Dumbledore's information, James had narrowed down the spy. That would have made it acceptable for James as well IMO.

Remus would have shrugged it off, mainly because that was a turbulent period where everyone was suspicious and scared of everyone else. And he would have forgiven because they were his first friends who accepted him so whole heartedly IMO.

The last paragraphs are conclusions I have reached from conversations in canon. :)

I respect your view, but we would likely have to agree to disagree. The sentence I highlighted in your post is where you reach a conclusion I do not find support for in canon myself, and read canon to say just the opposite. So I would have to respectfully disagree with that conclusion. :)

It seems so that it was Sirius' idea, unless you're suggesting Peter subtly or not so subtly dropped hints about how Sirius would be the obvious choice and the first port of call for Death Eaters. I'm not sure if Peter actively sought the opportunity to become Secret Keeper, I don't like to think he was that determined to betray his friends. I do think though, he jumped at the opportunity when it came up, seeing his way of securing his safe position with the Dark Lord.I think that Peter insinuated himself into the role. He probably cast doubt on Remus and positioned himself to be selected.

Based on this I have concluded that James too, would have known about Sirius's suspicions and would have agreed to the switch because of that.
It was a last minute switch. We have no canon why Remus didn't know, but he could have been doing something elsewhere for the Order, or it could have been his time of the month. For all we know, Peter said he would tell Remus (and thus include him in the Fidelius Charm) and then deliberately didn't tell him. He set up Sirius as the fall guy, but he may have had some contingency plans for Remus as well. That way the suspicion could be spread around.

The whole Marauder switch and suspicion thing bugs me enormously. It's so contradictory. So Sirius would die for his friends, but isn't above suspecting them to be traitors? That makes no sense to me. It's a huge flaw in the story if you ask me.

And if James would indeed have considered it the height of dishonour not to trust his friends, then there's no way he ever suspected Remus, and went on with the switch and agreed to keep his silence to Remus only based on Sirius's suspicions, which he didn't believe in himself - that's the only way I can twist it to find it at least a little plausible.

I think too many sacrifices were made for this particular plot.

I think so too. It's definitely an awkward plot contrivance that's full of holes no matter how you examine it.

IMO Sirius was definitely suspicious - however I don't think it was based solely on Remus' lyncanthropy. This is my theory, that, in 6th year when Sirius almost killed Snape and James saved him, it created a rift between them.

IMO That said - I think this may have helped immensely in James' "maturing process" and he may have spent more time acting peacekeeper between them. James would never have suspected Remus, Sirius or Peter. However I don't think Sirius and Remus' friendship ever went completely back to normal - I mean, Sirius tried to make Lupin a murderer! Personally I believe that 'incident' was pretty detrimental to their friendship.

IMO Peter, not being in such a close friendship with James and Sirius probably went elsewhere - as I always felt he and Remus wouldn't get on that well as Remus would have been pretty smart and Peter definitely wasn't, so they probably would have pretty awkward conversations without James and Sirius.

IMO So when the Sirius and Remus broke that's when
1.James went after Lily,
2.Remus threw himself into work,
3.Sirius became "reckless" (and probably became quite a ladies man) and
4.Peter was left to fend for himself and probably went to the other bullies in the school as he obviously needed protection - accidentally got in with the dark side and became the traitor.

IMO Sirius' enmity probably made him suspect Remus first - but I doubt he would have told James, he would have just used reasons like

1. I'm the most obvious person the death eaters will suspect
2. Remus has enough to deal with (probably trying to get other werewolves on the Order's side)
3. No one would bother with Peter
4. Peter's got a small animagus form so he could get out of a tight spot

IMO Remus not being in a twin-type friendship with James probably thought that as Sirius would always be with James he should just stay away - however he probably suspected Sirius,
So his plan of action would have been
1. would have told Dumbledore
2.maybe informed Lily and James (James would have become absolutely furious though, so I think it's more probably Remus went to Dumbledore - who hearing this offered to be secret keeper)
3. tailed Sirius

IMO With Sirius and Remus chasing each other around in circles no one would have noticed Peter and thus, when the chance came Peter jumped at the possibility of being in Voldemort's good books. I don't think Peter was ever conniving enough to bring up the subject of secret keeper himself, I think that was entirely down to Sirius.

IMO Lily and James' decision?
Get rid of the Sirius/Remus thing, and go with reasons Sirius gave them to choose Peter.

And that is my theory/analysis/whatever you want to call it

We have no canon why Remus didn't know, but he could have been doing something elsewhere for the Order, or it could have been his time of the month.

We do have canon for why Remus did not know about the switch. It is in POA.

'....Wouldn't Sirius have told you, if they changed the plan?'

'Not if he thought I was the spy Peter,' said Lupin, who was now rolling up his sleeves. 'And you will in turn forgive me for believing you were the spy?'

'Forgive me Remus?'bold mine

What we don't have canon for is that James agreed to the switch based on this.

But the logical conclusion IMO has to be only this; James too by making the switch without telling Remus was accepting Sirius's suspicions about Remus. That was what WWB and I were debating yesterday. :)

James and Lily made the switch.

Remus did not know.

Sirius told Remus that Remus was not told about the switch because he was thought the spy.

All this is canon.

My conclusion was that James too agreed with Sirius because

1) James made the switch

2) Sirius had no reason to conceal his suspicions from James. He had no reason to protect Remus against James when he was actually trying to protect Jmaes and Lily from Remus IMO.

So I conclude James and Lily also thought Remus to be the spy. :)

We do have canon for why Remus did not know about the switch. It is in POA.
That's not canon on why he didn't know of the switch. That's just a guess on his part. He's the last one who would know the real reason why they didn't tell him since he wasn't there. Look, that may be the reason, but why they suspected him would be the real reason. I think Peter was spreading dissent and distrust among them. He set up Sirius after the swith and probably set up Remus before the switch.

That was a conversation between Remus and Sirius in POA. What I have posted was a response to the question Peter asked Remus, which I have also written. Remus knew Sirius suspected him to be a fact and he in turn apologized to Sirius for suspecting him to be the traitor IMO.

That was not a guess IMO, that was the conversation as it happened in the Shack.

Why do you feel it was a guess?

Why do you feel it was a guess?It was a guess because we still don't know what Sirius told James and why they made their decision. LIke I keep saying, why any of them distrusted Remus is the more interesting question.

I agree with Yoana, in that this is a problematic plot. It has too many holes. It doesn't hold up to examination.

Oh! okay. :)

It was not only Sirius who thought Remus to be the traitor, but Remus who also thought Sirius to be the traitor. As I see it; once Dumbledore told them about a traitor, I think they Had to face the fact that one among the three friends was a death eater.

Peter was struck off the list straight away IMO and that left Remus and Sirius. Remus, because he was a werewolf and more capable than Peter to become a DE and Sirius because of his family where many members were DEs.

So Sirius and Remus suspected each other. Sirius was trusted whole heartedly be James because it was Sirius who was made the Sk first. And since James and Lily agreed to Sirius's idea and made the switch without telling Remus, I thought James too, agreed it had to be Remus and no one else.

Just my opinion.

As I see it; once Dumbledore told them about a traitor, I think they Had to face the fact that one among the three friends was a death eater.
He told them there was a spy in the Order. That didn't have to be one of the Marauders. There had to be more going on out of sight for friends to distrust each other. Logically there was no reason for them to discount Peter. That's where the plot falls down. Peter was exactly the weak kind of personality that would be prey for Voldemort.

Logically there was no reason for them to discount Peter. That's where the plot falls down. Peter was exactly the weak kind of personality that would be prey for Voldemort.

Exactly. :cool:

It doesn't say much for the supposed strength of the brotherly love between James, Sirius and Remus that James could have suspected either Remus or Sirius of being a DE, nor does it speak well of the supposed anti-prejudicial attitudes of James and Sirius towards werewolves. That just doesn't make sense to me at all, that they could so easily have suspected Remus. :sigh:

Peter is the very obvious weak link here. I don't find it credible that James and Lily would have trusted him more than Remus. It's a plot hole all right. :p

The whole Marauder switch and suspicion thing bugs me enormously. It's so contradictory. So Sirius would die for his friends, but isn't above suspecting them to be traitors? That makes no sense to me. It's a huge flaw in the story if you ask me.

And if James would indeed have considered it the height of dishonour not to trust his friends, then there's no way he ever suspected Remus, and went on with the switch and agreed to keep his silence to Remus only based on Sirius's suspicions, which he didn't believe in himself - that's the only way I can twist it to find it at least a little plausible.

I think too many sacrifices were made for this particular plot.


I thought it fitted quiet well. We see examples of Sirius holding some very praiseworthy ideals but he doesn’t always live up to them and I always had the impression that he is blind to this particular failing of his. One example is his statement about if you want to know what someone’s like look at how their treat their inferiors; this doesn’t fit well with his own treatment of Kreature.

This left me thinking that his tenants on loyalty fell under the same banner what should be done not necessarily how he actually does it. I’m not trying to say he was a bad friend, not at all, just that maybe his standards were a bit to high for him to live up to – after all its easy to say you’d rather die than do something, its another thing to actually be in that position. JMO of course! :)

Peter was struck off the list straight away IMO and that left Remus and Sirius. Remus, because he was a werewolf and more capable than Peter to become a DE and Sirius because of his family where many members were DEs.

Ironic that the reson they choose Peter (that Voldemort would discount him) was exactly what they had done them selves :relax:

Peter is the very obvious weak link here. I don't find it credible that James and Lily would have trusted him more than Remus. It's a plot hole all right. This could be tidied up with my idea about Peter spreading the distrust and insinuating himself as Secret Keeper. But otherwise it doesn't hold up well.

This left me thinking that his tenants on loyalty fell under the same banner what should be done not necessarily how he actually does it. I’m not trying to say he was a bad friend, not at all, just that maybe his standards were a bit to high for him to live up to – after all its easy to say you’d rather die than do something, its another thing to actually be in that position. JMO of course!
JKR made Sirius a dog animagus. She made Peter a rat. Both reflected their inner character. A dog is loyal. His loyalty was not superficial.

He told them there was a spy in the Order. That didn't have to be one of the Marauders. There had to be more going on out of sight for friends to distrust each other. Logically there was no reason for them to discount Peter. That's where the plot falls down. Peter was exactly the weak kind of personality that would be prey for Voldemort.

Bold are the words from POA

The Marauder's Map

'You'd have thought Black and Potter were brothers!' chimed in Professor Flitwick. 'Inseparable!'

'Of course theory were,' said Fudge. 'Potter trusted Black beyond all his other friends. Nothing changed when they left School. Black was best man when James married Lily. Then they named him godfather to Harry. Harry has no idea of course. You can imagine how the idea would torment him.'

'Because Black turned to be in league with You-Know-Who?' whispered Madam Rosemerta.

'Worse than that mdear...' Fudge dropped his voice and proceeded in a sort of low rumble. 'Not many people are aware that the Potters knew You-Know-Who was after them. Dumbledore who was of course working tirelessly against YKW, had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once.He advised them to go into hiding. Well of course, YKW wasn't an easy person to hide from. Dumbledore told them their best chance was the Fidelus Charm.'


Okay! The first thing we know about James's friends is that he was inseparable with Sirius and that James trusted Sirius more than any of his other friends. that means more than Remus and peter.

the second thing is James and lily knew that Voldemort was after them and they did act on Dumbledore's alert that Voldemort was planning to come after them and also took his advices about the Fidelus charm.

.............'So Black was their SK?' whispered Madam Rosemerta.

'Naturally,' said Professor McGonagall. 'James Potter told Dumbledore that Black would die rather than tell where they were, that Black was planning to go into hiding himself... and yet Dumbledore remained worried. I remember him offering to be the Potters' SK himself.'

Here it is. James told Dumbledore that Sirius would rather die than tell about their whereabouts. so Dumbledore has warned James about Sirius and James has not agreed IMO.

'He suspected Black?' gasped Madam Rosemerta.

'He was sure somebody close to the Potters, had been keeping YKW informed of their movements,' said Professor McGonagall darkly. 'Indeed he had suspected for some time that someone on our side had turned traitor and was passing a lot of information to YKW.'

Some one close, from the above statements in canon I think means one of the 3 friends and Dumbledore thought it was Sirius. Dumbledore remained worried about James' decision and he offered to be their SK himself. He was also aware that someone in the Order was a traitor and he thought that traitor to be sirius, because even after James told dumbledore that Sirius would rather die than betray them, he was still worried IMO.

That means IMO Dumbledore thought that one of the 3 friends was the traitor in the order as well.

'But James Potter insisted on using Black?'
'He did,' said Fudge heavily. 'And then barely a week after the Fidelus Charm had been performed--'

The potters were killed.

James Potter insisted on using Sirius. Sirius persuaded James to make the switch IMO.

Because within that once week, Sirius persuaded James to make the switch and below we have canon saying that Sirius suspected Remus as the traitor and that was why Remus was not told about the switch. Sirius in fact asks forgiveness from Remus for suspecting him so and Remus also asks sirius to forgive him for the same IMO.

Sirius and Remus suspected each other. i think James knew it as well. but because of the switch I think James chose Sirius over Remus and believed Sirius's suspicions over Remus's IMO.

Other wise had James really thought it the height of dishonour to suspect his friends, I am sure we would have had a line saying that James wanted Remus to be informed about the switch IMO.

The choice of SK and the switch was NOT Sirius's; the choice was James's and Lily's. Sirius could only suggest and point out his suspicions IMO.

The decision was James and lily's. and they agreed with Sirius's suspicions and agreed to the switch without Remus's knowledge IMO.
-------------

The servant of Lord Voldemort

'....Wouldn't Sirius have told you, if they changed the plan?'

'Not if he thought I was the spy Peter,' said Lupin, who was now rolling up his sleeves. 'And you will in turn forgive me for believing you were the spy?'

'Forgive me Remus?'

Pearl, I think there was brotherly love between James and Sirius. Remus was the next level and Peter was one who forced his friendship upon the other three IMO. If you look at the Marauders that way, then I think everything falls into place IMO.

Now if we look at the Marauders this way then suddenly the enmity between Sirius, James and Snape is also clear. Rmeus on the other hand never had such an intense relationship with Snape and Peter was a nonentity IMO.

The entire post is my opinion.

JKR made Sirius a dog animagus. She made Peter a rat. Both reflected their inner character. A dog is loyal. His loyalty was not superficial.

i completely agree. All decisions that JKR made in writing the book have some later significance, and this one is easy to recognize.

Some one close
Some one close does not have to mean the Marauders. Many of the Order members are close. We saw that in OotP. Quite a few of them shared meals and holidays together.

Sirius was not a dog; he was a Grim. A Grim according to HP universe is an omen of death.

================

1. stern and admitting of no appeasement or compromise: grim determination; grim necessity.
2. of a sinister or ghastly character; repellent: a grim joke.
3. having a harsh, surly, forbidding, or morbid air: a grim man but a just one; a grim countenance.
4. fierce, savage, or cruel: War is a grim business.

---------------------

[Origin: bef. 900; ME, OE; c. OS, OHG grimm, ON grimmr]

—Related forms
grimly, adverb
grimness, noun


—Synonyms 1. harsh, unyielding. 2. frightful, horrible, dire, appalling, horrid, grisly, gruesome, hideous, dreadful. 3. severe, stern, hard. 4. ferocious, ruthless.
—Antonyms 1. lenient. 2. attractive. 3. gentle.



posted by wikipedia
A black dog is a spectral being found primarily in the folklores of the British Isles. The black dog is essentially a nocturnal spectre, and its appearance was regarded as a portent of death. It is generally supposed to be larger than a physical dog, and often has large, glowing eyes.

It is often associated with electrical storms (such as Black Shuck's appearance at Bungay, Suffolk), and also with crossroads, places of execution and ancient pathways. Its Welsh form is confined to the sea-coast parishes, and on the Norfolk coast the creature is supposed to be amphibious, coming out of the sea by night and travelling about the lonely lanes.

The origins of the black dog are difficult to discern. It is impossible to ascertain whether the phantom originated in the Celtic or Germanic elements in British culture. Throughout European mythology, dogs have been associated with death. Examples of this are the Cŵn Annwn, Garm and Cerberus, all of whom were in some way guardians of the underworld. This association seems to be due to the scavenging habits of dogs. It is possible that the black dog is a survival of these beliefs.

Black dogs are almost universally malevolent, although few (such as the Barghest) are held to be directly harmful. Most are a portent of death, or are in some way associated with the Devil. Some, however, like the Gurt Dog in Somerset and the Black Dog of the Hanging Hills (below) may sometimes act benevolently.

CBW
Some one close does not have to mean the Marauders. Many of the Order members are close. We saw that in OotP. Quite a few of them shared meals and holidays together.

I would agree, only Dumbledore suspected that traitor to be close to the Potters and was worried by James's intention to keep Sirius as the SK IMO.

That implies IMO that Dumbeldore thought Sirius to be the SK IMO.

James and Lily were in hiding for almost 2 years before they went under the Fidelus. Which means they were not in touch with the Order members directly or did not meet the Order memebrs as frequently as they would have had they not been in hiding IMO.

So someone close to the Potters would mean someone who was interacting with the Potters regularly and frequently IMO.

That was 4 persons. Sirius, Remus, Petr5 and Dumbledore. Since it was Dumbledore who brought the idea of a traitor and a spy, offering to be their SK, he was suspecting one of the other 3 IMO.

James was steadfast in his opinion that Sirius would rather die than betray him. That left Remus and Peter. Since Peter was chosen as the SK for the4 switch, I assumed it was Remus who was thought to be the traitor IMO.

If this is true, and Remus must have knwon it, because he too, suspected Sirius to be the traitor, then when Siriuis was made the SK, he would have thought that James and Co. had believed in Sirius and not in him. He would have gone away, and that fits in with canon too, because he was not there during the switch and he never came back, going into a hole and pulling the hole in after him, crushed that James too, believed him to be a traitor and chose Sirius instead IMO.

And after the Potters were killed, Remus would have felt very, very bitter and hurt and then his decision not to meet Harry makes sense. After everything Remus's werewolf comes into play. It makes even his closest friends for whom he would have died, suspect him as the traitor; he who had cut them a lot of slack, all because he was accepted so fully by them IMO.

His confidence would have been at an all time low after Siirus was made the SK (he never knew about the switch until POA, like everybody else) that James too trusted Sirius over him IMO. He would not have wanted to take that risk with Harry as well, because he may have been scared that Harry would reject him as well IMO. Though, I don't have canon for this, I have nevertheless based my opinions on canon.

Sirius was not a dog; he was a Grim. A Grim according to HP universe is an omen of death.

================

1. stern and admitting of no appeasement or compromise: grim determination; grim necessity.
2. of a sinister or ghastly character; repellent: a grim joke.
3. having a harsh, surly, forbidding, or morbid air: a grim man but a just one; a grim countenance.
4. fierce, savage, or cruel: War is a grim business.

---------------------

[Origin: bef. 900; ME, OE; c. OS, OHG grimm, ON grimmr]

—Related forms
grimly, adverb
grimness, noun


—Synonyms 1. harsh, unyielding. 2. frightful, horrible, dire, appalling, horrid, grisly, gruesome, hideous, dreadful. 3. severe, stern, hard. 4. ferocious, ruthless.
—Antonyms 1. lenient. 2. attractive. 3. gentle.







I would agree, only Dumbledore suspected that traitor to be close to the Potters and was worried by James's intention to keep Sirius as the SK IMO.

That implies IMO that Dumbeldore thought Sirius to be the SK IMO.

James and Lily were in hiding for almost 2 years before they went under the Fidelus. Which means they were not in touch with the Order members directly or did not meet the Order memebrs as frequently as they would have had they not been in hiding IMO.

So someone close to the Potters would mean someone who was interacting with the Potters regularly and frequently IMO.

That was 4 persons. Sirius, Remus, Petr5 and Dumbledore. Since it was Dumbledore who brought the idea of a traitor and a spy, offering to be their SK, he was suspecting one of the other 3 IMO.

James was steadfast in his opinion that Sirius would rather die than betray him. That left Remus and Peter. Since Peter was chosen as the SK for the4 switch, I assumed it was Remus who was thought to be the traitor IMO.

If this is true, and Remus must have knwon it, because he too, suspected Sirius to be the traitor, then when Siriuis was made the SK, he would have thought that James and Co. had believed in Sirius and not in him. He would have gone away, and that fits in with canon too, because he was not there during the switch and he never came back, going into a hole and pulling the hole in after him, crushed that James too, believed him to be a traitor and chose Sirius instead IMO.

And after the Potters were killed, Remus would have felt very, very bitter and hurt and then his decision not to meet Harry makes sense. After everything Remus's werewolf comes into play. It makes even his closest friends for whom he would have died, suspect him as the traitor; he who had cut them a lot of slack, all because he was accepted so fully by them IMO.

His confidence would have been at an all time low after Siirus was made the SK (he never knew about the switch until POA, like everybody else) that James too trusted Sirius over him IMO. He would not have wanted to take that risk with Harry as well, because he may have been scared that Harry would reject him as well IMO. Though, I don't have canon for this, I have nevertheless based my opinions on canon.


Well TGW, it is an interesting theory, but the canon in the books says exactly the opposite. So I would have to respectfully disagree with your entire theory.

Peter is the only one who did any betraying when he joined up with Snape and Voldemort and the three of them are fully responsible for the Potter's deaths.

Peter at the end hesitated and ended up choking himself, because in the end, he felt remorse. :)

Well TGW, it is an interesting theory,

Thanks! :)


but the canon in the books says exactly the opposite.

But I have quoted canon (a few post back)and it took me such a long time to type it all out, too! :)

How do you feel that canon says exactly the opposite? Where in canon I mean?

Peter is the only one who did any betraying when he joined up with Snape and Voldemort and the three of them are fully responsible for the Potter's deaths.

I agree with the fact that Peter did the betraying, but I am not sure what you mean by saying that Peter joined up with Snape and Voldmeort to be responsible for the Potters death. Peter and Voldmeort joined together, but Snape IMO never knew about Peter. had he known the Potters would have lived, for he would ahve surely given the name of the spy to Dumbledore on the hill IMO.

Peter at the end hesitated and ended up choking himself, because in the end, he felt remorse. :)

I am in doubt about this. I don't think Peter felt any remorse; I think he was surprised into loosening his hold on Harry and paid the price for it. But I am not sure; must re-read! :)

Well TGW, it is an interesting theory, but the canon in the books says exactly the opposite. So I would have to respectfully disagree with your entire theory.

Somebody remind me: what does canon say? :lol:

Seriously, I find the whole thing completely and utterly confusing, not to say psychologically unconvincing -- the fact that James might have distrusted either Remus or Sirius and suspected one or other of them to be the spy, and the fact that nobody, according to canon, ever suspected Peter.

So, while The_Green_Wood's theory may not be based directly on canon, at least it does make psychological sense ... and that is really important to me, in a story I care about. In a time of heightened terror and paranoia, perhaps James and Sirius did actually suspect Remus (as much as they loved him and as much as it would have hurt them to do so). I don't find that any more implausible than what canon actually presents us with.

Peter at the end hesitated and ended up choking himself, because in the end, he felt remorse. :)

I think the evidence for Peter's remorse is somewhat tenuous, myself (was it real remorse or just a reflex action that made his hand jerk back from choking Harry?) but Harry seemed to think it denoted something of the sort, in his conversation with Albus in the King's Cross chapter.

It always amazes me that Harry doesn't feel more hatred for Pettigrew ... Harry is fairly good at feeling aggression, and you'd think he would have stronger feelings about the guy who really did betray his parents to death. :shrug:

Thanks! :)
But I have quoted canon (a few post back)and it took me such a long time to type it all out, too! :)

How do you feel that canon says exactly the opposite? Where in canon I mean?

I commend you on that! I know how tedious it is to do because when I have come up with theories and tried to support them, it took a lot of searching, reading and typing. So I totally appreciate all of the work you did to support your thoughts. :)

However, I feel that the canon where Remus states James felt that not trusting his friends would have been the height of dishonor is contrary to your conclusion that James didn't trust Remus.

In addition, your theory is heavy on proving James distrusted Remus, but does not take Lily into account at all. Sirius would have had to convince her as well, she was shown in canon to have a mind of her own and shown defending Remus against Snape in the memories.

Finally, if JKR wished us to have believed that the Potter's distrusted any of their friends, she would have indicated it in canon, or even alluded to it, imo. What she does do is allude to the fact that James and Lily had a reason to doubt Dumbledore, but there is no canon pointing to their mistrusting Remus or Sirius.

Canon states that Sirius and Remus mistrusted one another. I do not believe that one can assume that James would side with Sirius. There is canon that shows us the exact opposite of that: the werewolf incident. Thus, James did not always agree with Sirius. Sirius knew James well and in my opinion, he would not even share his doubts about Remus with James (nor would Remus), and if Sirius did share them, James and Lily both would discount Sirius' doubts, imo. After all, Lily said that she found it hard to believe that Dumbledore and Grindlewald were friends, that is, it was hard to convince her that Dumbledore might not be trustworthy - and yet, your theory states that she was readily willing to distrust her even closer and better friend Remus (and it would have had to be a sudden and quick readiness to distrust him as Sirius we are told convinced them to switch in the last moment). In my opnion, that would not be probable based on the canon.

Finally, Sirius states in canon the reason he convinced the Potter's of the switch and your theory is completely distinct from what he states. He said he felt that it was because Peter was the least talented and the least likely to be approached by Voldemort. Your theory states that Sirius convinced James based on the idea that Remus was not trustworthy and therefore Peter was the only choice left. That is a contradiction of canon, imo.

So that is why I would have to respectfully disagree with your theory, but again, it was a very interesting one. :)

I agree with the fact that Peter did the betraying, but I am not sure what you mean by saying that Peter joined up with Snape and Voldmeort to be responsible for the Potters death. Peter and Voldmeort joined together, but Snape IMO never knew about Peter. had he known the Potters would have lived, for he would ahve surely given the name of the spy to Dumbledore on the hill IMO.

Just that Peter joined up with the Death Eaters and he together with Snape and Voldemort were directly responsible for the Potter's death. Snape gave the prophecy to Voldemort, Peter gave their location away and Voldemort killed them. Without Snape and Peter, Voldemort would not have killed them in the storyline as we have it, imo, but something distinct would have occurred.

Pearl, look at my post # 521, the first post on this page. That's full of canon. :lol:

I have based my conclusions on canon. :p

Seriously, though, what I have tried to do is to find out about the closeness of their friendships, the reason Sirius suspected Remus and most of all why Remus did not come to meet Harry all those years. That has been bugging me for so long. He is my favourite Marauder, and I can even understand and not mind him leaving Tonks, but not seeing Harry for some 13 years was such a big let down IMO.

This kind of; not fully though, but kind of makes me feel why Remus would not have come near Harry.

And for all their projected closeness, there were a lot of cracks in the Marauders' friendship that came to light when all of them were under enormous stress, fear and everything.

From canon I know Sirius suspected Remus and from Canon I know James and Lily agreed to the switch without Remus's knowledge and trusting Peter.

I conclude James and Lily too, thought of Remus as the spy and the traitor.

Another thing I noticed in DH was, in the letter Harry finds in Grimmauld Place, Lily does not mention Remus at all, another clue, perhaps that Remus was already suspected IMO.

Pearl, look at my post # 521, the first post on this page. That's full of canon. :lol:

TGW, my apologies. :blush: I promise I will read your theory again, in full. :) As I said, I find your theory as convincing as anything that 'direct' canon presents us with, because, quite frankly, I just don't know what canon presents us with, I can't make head or tail of it. :shrug:

Your theory is coherent. :tu:

And for all their projected closeness, there were a lot of cracks in the Marauders' friendship that came to light when all of them were under enormous stress, fear and everything.

Which is very true of close friendships in real life, of course. :cool:

Another thing I noticed in DH was, in the letter Harry finds in Grimmauld Place, Lily does not mention Remus at all, another clue, perhaps that Remus was already suspected IMO.

Very interesting point, TGW.

Pearl, look at my post # 521, the first post on this page. That's full of canon. :lol:

I have based my conclusions on canon. :p

Seriously, though, what I have tried to do is to find out about the closeness of their friendships, the reason Sirius suspected Remus and most of all why Remus did not come to meet Harry all those years. That has been bugging me for so long. He is my favourite Marauder, and I can even understand and not mind him leaving Tonks, but not seeing Harry for some 13 years was such a big let down IMO.

This kind of; not fully though, but kind of makes me feel why Remus would not have come near Harry.

And for all their projected closeness, there were a lot of cracks in the Marauders' friendship that came to light when all of them were under enormous stress, fear and everything.

From canon I know Sirius suspected Remus and from Canon I know James and Lily agreed to the switch without Remus's knowledge and trusting Peter.

I conclude James and Lily too, thought of Remus as the spy and the traitor.

Another thing I noticed in DH was, in the letter Harry finds in Grimmauld Place, Lily does not mention Remus at all, another clue, perhaps that Remus was already suspected IMO.

Canon also says Remus did not trust Sirius. In light of that, we could conclude that Remus convinced James and Lily that Sirius was not trustworthy - and Sirius convinced James and Lily that Remus was not trustworthy - and James and Lily thus did not trust either Sirius or Remus and that is the real reason that they switched to Peter.

But the canon does not back this up. Mainly Remus stating that James would have thought it was the height of dishonor to trust his friends discounts the notion that he didn't trust either Sirius or Remus, imo. According to Dumbledore, James, like Harry, would have spared Peter whereas Remus and Sirius would not have - that in itself is a huge indication that James was different in his attitude toward his friends. Then Remus tells us the other big difference. James was simply cut from a different pattern than Sirius and Remus in this regard. Again, Lily must also be taken into consideration - she is a strong woman and her opinions and feelings cannot be discounted in my view.

Maybe we can put the canon gun away. Canon is a quote from the book, word by word. People can and often do interpret the exact same words differently. I have seen this all the time before Deathly Hallows came out. Blanket statements about what canon does and not not say need to be supported by specific examples, not just a general "canon says Sirius did not trust Remus". Sure, he didn't trust Remus for a certain period of time over a certain incident. But before that he trusted him, after that he trusted him, so we still need to define the incident we are referring to. And bottom line, if it isn't quoted word by word from the book, it is still your interpretation of canon.

Your theory is coherent. :tu:

Thanks! :)

Canon also says Remus did not trust Sirius.

Of course canon says remus also thought Sirius to be the traitor. But then,

In light of that, we could conclude that Remus convinced James and Lily that Sirius was not trustworthy - and Sirius convinced James and Lily that Remus was not trustworthy - and James and Lily thus did not trust either Sirius or Remus and that is the real reason that they switched to Peter.

We don't have canon for this, but we have canon for Sirius persuading James to switch SKs and for James to say that Sirius would rather die than tell on him and that among the 3 friends, it was Sirius who was closest to James, who thought of Sirius as a brother; more than a brother IMO. It was James not heeding Dumbledore's worries, chose Sirius; it was James and Lily again who allowed themselves to be persuaded by Sirius to make the switch. Both of this is canon IMO. No where does it state that Peter was chosen because james & Lily could not trust both Remus and Sirius IMO.

But the canon does not back this up. Mainly Remus stating that James would have thought it was the height of dishonor to trust his friends discounts the notion that he didn't trust either Sirius or Remus, imo. According to Dumbledore, James, like Harry, would have spared Peter whereas Remus and Sirius would not have - that in itself is a huge indication that James was different in his attitude toward his friends. Then Remus tells us the other big difference. James was simply cut from a different pattern than Sirius and Remus in this regard. Again, Lily must also be taken into consideration - she is a strong woman and her opinions and feelings cannot be discounted in my view

Remus understood, how it was in those days. Mainly because he too suspected Sirius. And at the time he was speaking James and Sirius were both dead. It was war and what the story of the marauders show is that even best friends could not be sure about each other.

Sirius and Remus were not sure of each other and James and Lily were not sure of Remus either IMO because they made the switch. The Marauders were also prey to the uncertainties of the war. They too were influenced by it and they too were affected by it, like so many others IMO.

And another thing this brings to light is the strength of their friendship IMO. James and Sirius were on one level; Remus was on another IMO.

Maybe we can put the canon gun away. Canon is a quote from the book, word by word. People can and often do interpret the exact same words differently. I have seen this all the time before Deathly Hallows came out. Blanket statements about what canon does and not not say need to be supported by specific examples, not just a general "canon says Sirius did not trust Remus". Sure, he didn't trust Remus for a certain period of time over a certain incident. But before that he trusted him, after that he trusted him, so we still need to define the incident we are referring to. And bottom line, if it isn't quoted word by word from the book, it is still your interpretation of canon.

Good points :tu:. In light of that, I would add this canon on the trust issue between Remus and Sirius:


(Pettigrew) "you don't believe this...wouldn't Sirius have told you they'd changed the plan?'

'Not if he thought I was the spy, Peter,' said Lupin. 'I assume that's why you didn't tell me, Sirius?' he said casually over Pettigrew's head.

'Forgive me, Remus,' said Black.

'Not at all. Padfoot, old friend,' said Lupin, who was now rolling up his sleeves, 'And will you in turn forgive me for believing you were the spy?'

'Of course,' said Black, and the ghost of a grin flitted across his gaunt face...'

In this section, neither Remus or Sirius say that either of them shared their views with Lily, James or Peter. Nor does it say that James, Lily or Peter distrusted either Remus or Sirius or thought them the spy (Peter of course knew the truth :lol:). In addiiton, neither party used the plural to indicate that their beliefs were shared by others. In my judgment, it is relevant because Sirius at least, could have had support in his believing Remus was the spy if Lily, James and/or Peter had also believed it as well and I feel it would have made him the more sympathetic of the two. That is, in my opinion, it could lend to the idea that if everyone believed Remus the spy, there was a sound basis for doing so.

Canon provides that Sirius, James and Peter did not agree with society's view of werewolves, at least where Remus was concerned, imo. I believe this because not only did they befriend him and support him, but they became animagi (3 years work) just for him; James created the euphemism "furry little problem" which lends more to the idea of a teddy bear than a monster and Remus indicated that James felt that he was "normal" (HBP). Based on their old friendship, we saw in POA, Sirius became enraged and was ready to fight when Remus was treated poorly based on being a werewolf (The Servant of Lord Voldemort) and I feel he showed that he had a lot of respect for Remus, who was able to exert control over Sirius where others were not (OOTP - with Molly and in Careers Advice). In my opinion, Remus' status as a werewolf did not play a role in Sirius' viewpoint that Remus was a spy. In my opinion, the fact that Sirius came from the Black family did not play a role in Remus viewing him as the spy either because imo, Sirius had shown over the years his disdain for his family, their views and had fought against it. Imo, both were persuaded that the other was a spy merely by the process of elimination.

The other canon we have is from Remus' view point:

"...why hasn't he shown himself before now? Unless - 'Lupin's eyes suddenly widened, as though he was seeing something beyond Black, something none of the rest could see, '-unless he was the one...unless you switched ...without telling me?'

Very slowly, his sunken gaze never leaving Lupin's face, Black nodded.

Here, I interpreted this to mean that Lupin was figuring out that Black had believed he was a spy and that is why he did not tell him of the switch. His widening of the eyes, in my opinion, speaks to his working through the past where he recalled believing Black was the spy, never suspecting that Black had imagined the same thing about him.

In the first quote I provided, Black's "ghost of a smile", in my opinion, speaks to Black not realizing that Remus had believed him the spy. Thus, in my view, they suspected one another, but did not suspect that the other susected them.

Here again, there is no mention of the plural, as in either Peter or James and Lily shared their views. Indeed, in the first quote, Peter's question infers that he hadn't figured out why Sirius would not have told Remus about the switch which in my opinion means that Sirius did not tell Peter of his suspicion about Remus previously. That, in my view, seems strange if Sirius was making a point of telling all the friends that he was suspicious of Remus; why tell James and Lily and not Peter, who would be called upon to make the substitution?

Finally this last bit of canon convinces me that James at least would not have thought either Remus or Sirius the spy because he trusted them both:



(Harry) "I trust all of you, I don't think anyone in this room would ever sell me to Voldemort"

[...]

Lupin was wearing an odd expression as he looked at Harry. It was close to pitying.

"You think I'm a fool?" demanded Harry.

"No, I think you're like James," said Lupin, "who would have regarded it as the height of dishonor to mistrust his friends."

Harry knew what Lupin was getting at: that his father had been betrayed by his friend, Peter Pettigrew. He felt irrationally angry. He wanted to argue, but Lupin had turned away from him.

This canon is extremely relevant to the idea that James trusted all of his friends, imo. Harry said he trusted everyone in the room, hands down, without exception, and indicated that he felt none of them would sell him to Voldemort. Harry was correct; Dumbledore through Snape had done that (DH TPT).

It was to that particular remark that Remus told Harry that Harry reminded him of James, implying (imo) that James too trusted all of his friends when he should not have because Pettigrew had betrayed him. Harry supports this in his internal POV where he "knew what Lupin was getting at" and Pettigrew had betrayed James.

In my judgment, Remus would not have made this statement if he believed that James had distrusted him. It would then have been a lie, and there is no canon, imo, that indicates Remus was lying. I feel that if Remus, who was extremely close to Sirius and James did not believe that James would have thought him a spy just because Sirius did, then there is no basis for me to believe otherwise because he knew them better than I did and in my view, he would readily make the assumption that James and Sirius always agreed with one another on matters of that sort if that had been the case in the past. Because Remus does not make that assumption, based on the above canon, I do not believe that it can hold true.

Further, I feel that Remus making the above statement indicates that he felt James trusted him for another reason. That is, in my opinion, Remus would have been able to make a better argument to Harry if he had believed that James had not trusted him: "Even your father was not as trusting as you are now; he suspected that I might be the spy along with Sirius." In my opinion, that would have been much more convincing in getting Harry to recognize that he was being too trusting than what Remus did say which only served to anger Harry and make him wish to argue the point, based on the quote above. But Remus did not make the alternative argument that I feel would have worked out better, because in my opinion, Remus did not believe it was true. Instead he said what he felt was true, in my judgment, which was that James would have thought it the height of dishonor to mistrust his friends.

Note too that Remus did not qualify his statement; he could have added, 'unless he had a good reason to do so', because in my judgment, James did have a good reason to do so - he had information that someone close to the Potters was a spy. But I believe that despite Remus knowing that James had a good reason to mistrust his friends, Remus did not add that to his statement because the statement could not be qualified in that way. In my opinion, Remus may have even known that because he suggested to James that Sirius was the spy and James told him that he would never believe it and that he would never believe any of his closest friends would be the spy no matter who tried to convince him (as Dumbledore had given him this information and they likely all held him in high regard as the leader of hte Order) - and in my view, that would also explain why Remus told Harry that he reminded him of his father in that moment, because James had said the same thing to him.

Finally, I feel it is highly likely that James may have straight away told all of his closest friends that he did not suspect and would never suspect any of them, in such a way that made them understand he would think such a thing dishonorable. I feel that way because Remus' statement is put very ademantly "the height of dishonor". For that reason, I feel James made this point very clear to Remus at least, and likely to all of his friends.

Here is the canon for why Sirus desired to make the switch:



"Lily and James only made you Secret-Keeper because I suggested it,' Black hissed, so venomously that Pettigrew took a step backwards. 'I thought it was the perfect plan...a bluff...Voldemort would be sure to come after me, would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless thing like you...it must have been the finest moment of your miserable life, telling Voldemort you could hand him the Potters.'

In the above quote, Sirius does not mention Remus and his suspicions of him at all. At that point in the canon, Sirius and Remus had already stated their mistrust for one another, so there was no reason for Sirius not to indicate that he had used that to assist him in convincing James and Lily to mistrust Lupin and therefore choose Peter, imo. Second, based on Sirius' "plan" he states in the above quote, I don't believe choosing Remus for secret keeper would make sense; Sirius did not consider Remus to be weak and talentless and therefore he would have been a very bad choice to switch to in order for Sirius' plan to work, imo, because Voldemort would go to both Sirius nad Remus first, prior to going to Peter, according to Sirius' plan. :)

ETA: (sorry just saw your last post).


we have canon for Sirius persuading James to switch SKs and for James to say that Sirius would rather die than tell on him

I would respectfully disagree. It was Sirius who said that both he and Remus would have died before betraying their friends:

"THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!' roared Black. DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU.'

I do not believe that James made a comment with respect to this issue in canon. :)

Sirius and Remus were not sure of each other and James and Lily were not sure of Remus either IMO because they made the switch.

I am not sure what canon you are basing your opinion on. In my above quote, Sirius indicates the reason he used to convince James and Lily to make the switch. In my opinion, that has nothing to do with Remus at all, so I do not understand the connection you are making - that is, why would James and Lily have to consider Remus at all in making the switch based on the reason that Sirius was giving them for doing so? Could you please clarify? :)

As I say, I respect your theory and find it interesting, however, based on the canon provided above, I would respectfully disagree that James thought either Remus or Sirius was the spy; that Sirius or Remus based their thoughts that the other was a spy on the background of the other or that Sirius, James or Lily considered Remus in their reasoning for making the "switch". I would also respectfully disagree that James or Lily knew that Sirius and Peter had not told Remus about the switch.

Canon provides that Sirius, James and Peter did not agree with society's view of werewolves, at least where Remus was concerned, imo. I disagree with your interpretation, but not your right to interpret it this way. I think that canon shows us that Sirius, James and Peter turned into Animagi so that they could keep Remus company when he transformed into a werewolf. I don't think that there is any canon that states that this action of becoming Animagi makes a statement of their views of the way society treats werewolves. Maybe they agreed that society should separate someone during the time they are werewolves. And James knew that a full-blown werewolf was too dangerous for Snape to encounter, which may be proof that James agreed with some of society's rules regarding werewolves. This is of course my own interpetation of the book.

I disagree with your interpretation, but not your right to interpret it this way. I think that canon shows us that Sirius, James and Peter turned into Animagi so that they could keep Remus company when he transformed into a werewolf. I don't think that there is any canon that states that this action of becoming Animagi makes a statement of their views of the way society treats werewolves. Maybe they agreed that society should separate someone during the time they are werewolves. And James knew that a full-blown werewolf was too dangerous for Snape to encounter, which may be proof that James agreed with some of society's rules regarding werewolves. This is of course my own interpetation of the book.

Ah, this is not what I was referring to. I agree with you that they understood the danger Remus posed as a werewolf. That view of society's I feel that they agreed with also. I was speaking of Society's ideology (as propounded by several people in canon as the Minister of Magic, Ron, Snape, Arthur, Tonks, Remus, Greyback and narration) that werewolves were considered dark creatures that should have lesser rights or standing in the wizard world, that they were inferior as compared to other wizards (much like some purebloods thought of muggleborns) and additionally, based on the way Remus was treated by many in society; they did not wish to befriend him, or give him a job based on being a werewolf.

Like Molly, Arthur, Dumbledore, Harry, Hermione, Tonks (and some others), I feel Sirius, James and Peter held Remus in equal status (bloodline wise) rather than seeing him as an inferior based on being a werewolf (recall Harry telling Remus he was "normal" but with a problem to deal with and Remus replied James had felt the same way; I believe they felt he had the same rights and priveleges as others and wanted to befriend him. I feel that they believed this as long as werewolves (like Remus) did their best to take responsibility for being a werewolf that lived in society (using wolfsbane and/or basically using a means in the attempt not to attack humans). :)

I agree with your interpretation of the way society viewed werewolves. And I agree that James, Sirius and Peter, by the actions they undertook, may be indicating that they may have held some views that differed from some of the views that society held. But I felt that your statement of what canon provided was actually an extrapolation of canon, rather than canon itself. This is all in my own opinion, of course.

And I agree that James, Sirius and Peter, by the actions they undertook, may be indicating that they may have held some views that differed from some of the views that society held.I wonder if Sirius, James and Peter were unique at Hogwarts in holding views that differed from those of society (namely that being a werewolf is a stigma), or if there were more students who held them as well (actually I think Lily would have agreed with the Marauders). I also wonder if Peter really did believe what Sirius and James did about werewolves or if he was just going along with his more powerful friends. The decision of this trio to become animagi for Remus really does speak to the depth of their friendship, I think. And I'm sure the challenge of the undertaking likely made the idea all the more appealing, but I think their primary reason for doing it was to help Remus. And Remus speaks to how much he appreciated their actions in PoA.

Sirius was not a dog; he was a Grim. A Grim according to HP universe is an omen of death.

While we're at it, would you be so kind as to provide a quote for that? Because all I remember is Harry thinking of Sirius as the grim because he has no idea what's really going on and Trelawney threatens him with death omens all the time. I don't think he ever called or thought of Sirius' Animagus form as a grim after he finds out about it. And I don't remember Sirius or Remus referring to his Animagus form as anything else but a dog.

Sirius was not a dog; he was a Grim. A Grim according to HP universe is an omen of death.

Isn't a Grim a dog anyways though? :hmm: No matter if it a evil spirit dog or just a black dog, a dog is a dog, in my opinion.

[QUOTE=The_Green_Woods;5063147]
Seriously, though, what I have tried to do is to find out about the closeness of their friendships, the reason Sirius suspected Remus and most of all why Remus did not come to meet Harry all those years. That has been bugging me for so long. He is my favourite Marauder, and I can even understand and not mind him leaving Tonks, but not seeing Harry for some 13 years was such a big let down IMO.


Perhaps he was forbidden to do so on Dumbledores' orders, Mrs Figg had her orders to keep an eye on Harry, but to tell him nothing.

Also, perhaps Remus felt it would dredge up too many painful memories, perhaps he didn't want to get close, he does seem reluctant to get close - Tonks, the baby, his fears that the Marauders would abandon him when they found out his secret.




Canon also says Remus did not trust Sirius. In light of that, we could conclude that Remus convinced James and Lily that Sirius was not trustworthy - and Sirius convinced James and Lily that Remus was not trustworthy - and James and Lily thus did not trust either Sirius or Remus and that is the real reason that they switched to Peter.

But the canon does not back this up. Mainly Remus stating that James would have thought it was the height of dishonor to trust his friends discounts the notion that he didn't trust either Sirius or Remus, imo. According to Dumbledore, James, like Harry, would have spared Peter whereas Remus and Sirius would not have - that in itself is a huge indication that James was different in his attitude toward his friends. Then Remus tells us the other big difference. James was simply cut from a different pattern than Sirius and Remus in this regard. Again, Lily must also be taken into consideration - she is a strong woman and her opinions and feelings cannot be discounted in my view.


Yeah, there is a big difference in the attitudes of Sirius and Remus; and James. IMO, Sirius is more cynical than James. James grew up in a loving home, was doted upon as his parents were relatively old when he was born (from an interview with JKR, not sure which one) and I'd assume was brought up with positive values and in his formative years would have been exposed to good people, his family. On the other hand, Sirius grew up in the eerie, foreboding "Ancient and Most Noble House of Black", with the intimidating Walburga shaping his formative years. And, although Sirius chose to rebel, I feel that something of the cautiousness, the suspicion would have remained. I don't see Sirius trusting people as readily as James. Remus, I think, would have seen the worst of people in their reactions to his condition, and so would not be as ready as James to see the goodness in people, or he would be ready to see the darkness that accompanies the goodness.


Like Molly, Arthur, Dumbledore, Harry, Hermione, Tonks (and some others), I feel Sirius, James and Peter held Remus in equal status (bloodline wise) rather than seeing him as an inferior based on being a werewolf (recall Harry telling Remus he was "normal" but with a problem to deal with and Remus replied James had felt the same way; I believe they felt he had the same rights and priveleges as others and wanted to befriend him. I feel that they believed this as long as werewolves (like Remus) did their best to take responsibility for being a werewolf that lived in society (using wolfsbane and/or basically using a means in the attempt not to attack humans). :)

That's the way I see it too. Acknowledging that Remus is dangerous at full moon is by no means on a par with Umbridges' anti-Werewolf legislation. Nor is it on a par with Rons' (much as I love him) "Get away from me, werewolf" to a man he had known and respected for the best part of a year. It's just common sense. However, they knew that the rest of the time, Remus was Remus, their friend and fellow Marauder.

James and Lily were in hiding for almost 2 years before they went under the Fidelus.
I don't recall them being in hiding and out of touch with the Order for two years. They only went under Fidelius for one week. They may not have made their location known to the public, but I can't remember reading anything that stated they were hidden from the Order and friends and family.

I don't recall them being in hiding and out of touch with the Order for two years. They only went under Fidelius for one week. They may not have made their location known to the public, but I can't remember reading anything that stated they were hidden from the Order and friends and family.

In the U.S. tour, J.K. Rowling said that Lily and James went into hiding as soon as they found out Lily was pregnant. :)

In the U.S. tour, J.K. Rowling said that Lily and James went into hiding as soon as they found out Lily was pregnant.
That's still not the same as stating they kept their location hidden from the Order and family and friends. I guess my statement wasn't as clear as it could be.

That's still not the same as stating they kept their location hidden from the Order and family and friends. I guess my statement wasn't as clear as it could be.

I believe their family and friends they could trust, including Order members knew where they were until they went under fidelius curse too. Petunia sent them a vase during that time. Bertha and Dumbledore knew for certain and Remus may have been living with them part of the time at least as we don't have canon on what supporting him meant, imo. :)

I would respectfully disagree. It was Sirius who said that both he and Remus would have died before betraying their friends:

"THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!' roared Black. DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU.'

I do not believe that James made a comment with respect to this issue in canon. :)

Bold are the words from canon

It is there in POA.

The Marauder's Map

'You'd have thought Black and Potter were brothers!' chimed in Professor Flitwick. 'Inseparable!'

'Of course theory were,' said Fudge. 'Potter trusted Black beyond all his other friends. Nothing changed when they left School. Black was best man when James married Lily. Then they named him godfather to Harry. Harry has no idea of course. You can imagine how the idea would torment him.'

'Because Black turned to be in league with You-Know-Who?' whispered Madam Rosemerta.

'Worse than that mdear...' Fudge dropped his voice and proceeded in a sort of low rumble. 'Not many people are aware that the Potters knew You-Know-Who was after them. Dumbledore who was of course working tirelessly against YKW, had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once.He advised them to go into hiding. Well of course, YKW wasn't an easy person to hide from. Dumbledore told them their best chance was the Fidelus Charm.'

'So Black was their SK?' whispered Madam Rosemerta.

'Naturally,' said Professor McGonagall. 'James Potter told Dumbledore that Black would die rather than tell where they were, that Black was planning to go into hiding himself... and yet Dumbledore remained worried. I remember him offering to be the Potters' SK himself.'

'He suspected Black?' gasped Madam Rosemerta.

'He was sure somebody close to the Potters, had been keeping YKW informed of their movements,' said Professor McGonagall darkly. 'Indeed he had suspected for some time that someone on our side had turned traitor and was passing a lot of information to YKW

'But James Potter insisted on using Black?'
'He did,' said Fudge heavily. 'And then barely a week after the Fidelus Charm had been performed--'

I think what you’ve given is about Peter joining Voldemort and not about suspicions of each other. It was because of Peter there was a spy in the order and because of the spy whose notice was brought to them that the 4 friends suspected one of them to be a traitor and because of that their friendship which was close knit and until that time, they were sure that they would rather die for each other than betray each other. But after they knew that one of them was not a friend that broke the close knit friendship IMO because they ended up suspecting each other and pointing fingers at each other IMO.

‘He – he was taking over everywhere!’ gasped Pettigrew. ‘ what was there to be gained by refusing him?’

………’You don’t understand!’ whined Pettigrew. ‘he would have killed me Sirius.’

‘THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!’ roared Black. ‘DIED RATHERR THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!’

I am not sure what canon you are basing your opinion on. In my above quote, Sirius indicates the reason he used to convince James and Lily to make the switch. In my opinion, that has nothing to do with Remus at all, so I do not understand the connection you are making - that is, why would James and Lily have to consider Remus at all in making the switch based on the reason that Sirius was giving them for doing so? Could you please clarify? :)

POA

‘Harry… I as good as killed them,’ he croaked. ‘I persuaded Lily and James to change to Peter at the last moment, persuaded them to use him as secret keeper instead of me… I’m to blame, I know it…

………'....Wouldn't Sirius have told you, if they changed the plan?'

'Not if he thought I was the spy Peter,' said Lupin, who was now rolling up his sleeves. 'And you will in turn forgive me for believing you were the spy?'

'Forgive me Remus?'

‘Not at all Padfoot, old friend,’ said Lupin, who was now rolling his sleeves. ‘And will you in turn, forgive me for believing you were the spy’

We actually don’t know the exact means by which Sirius persuaded James, because the exact words are not given in the books. But by inference and other sentences pertaining to that week when the Fidelus was first cast and subsequently switched, I have concluded the way I have.

I know that Sirius and Remus suspected each other. I know that Remus was not told about the switch because he was suspected to be the traitor. I know that Dumbledore thought some one very close to the Potters was the spy; I know that it was Sirius who persuaded the Potters; I know that it was Peter and not Remus who was chosen to be the secret keeper and because of all this which is canon, I know that James and Lily agreed to be persuaded, which means IMO they agreed to the switch.

Remus was not told because he was suspected; that's canon. While if he was not the secret - Keeper, he could not reveal the secret to Voldemort, he could nevertheless harm them there or take Harry away from there to Voldemort. That may have been one reason why Remus was left out of the secret even though he could not reveal the secret to Voldemort if he were not secret – Keeper IMO.

As I say, I respect your theory and find it interesting, however, based on the canon provided above, I would respectfully disagree that James thought either Remus or Sirius was the spy; that Sirius or Remus based their thoughts that the other was a spy on the background of the other or that Sirius, James or Lily considered Remus in their reasoning for making the "switch". I would also respectfully disagree that James or Lily knew that Sirius and Peter had not told Remus about the switch.

What I feel is James was sure Sirius was not the spy; Sirius and Remus suspected each other, Remus was NOT told about the switch, which IMO means he was thought the traitor by not only Sirius but also by James and Lily IMO.

We have nothing in the books that tell us that Remus was away at that time, working for the order, or that he knew about the switch in any way.

And I think Lupin’s remarks toi Harry in Dh, was a reference to Sirius. It was Sirius Dumbledore was worried about; it was Sirius whom James assured Dumbledore would rather die than betray him; it was Sirius whom James was inseperable with and it was Sirius whom James was closest to, more than or like a brother IMO.

And it was when Sirius was suspected probably because of his death eater family background, James stepped in to say that Sirius was not a traitor, would never be one and that he trusted Sirius more than anyone, perhaps IMO.

While we're at it, would you be so kind as to provide a quote for that? Because all I remember is Harry thinking of Sirius as the grim because he has no idea what's really going on and Trelawney threatens him with death omens all the time. I don't think he ever called or thought of Sirius' Animagus form as a grim after he finds out about it. And I don't remember Sirius or Remus referring to his Animagus form as anything else but a dog.

Okay! I have very little to go on about this. But while I did not base my post on anything but a general belief (at that time), I have tried to get as much canon as I could on this. :)

I made my post saying that there was a difference between an ordinary dog and a grim or a huge dog like creature. That creature was an omen of death, which I took to say that it was Sirius’s persuasion of James and Lily to make the switch that resulted in their deaths in one way. I think JKR may have been trying to show us that in a way. A foreshadow of the events to come, even though we knew it only much later about the Grim and its significance. Sirius was a loyal friend who may have died for James and Lily but he also had another side where he was also reckless, slightly wild and uncaring of the consequences of his actions as well IMO.

POA – The Knight’s Bus
….Harry saw quite distinctly, the hulking outline of something vewry big, with wide, gleaming eyes.

‘There was a big black thing’ said Harry, pointing uncertainly into the gap. ‘Like a dog…but massive….’

This is the first reference to the Grim. It looks like a dog but was also different from a normal dog and Harry seems to have seen many similarities to the Grim, though he did not know about the Grim at that time. ( looking like a dog, but very huge and with gleaming eyes)

POA The Leaky Cauldron

But Harry wasn’t listening. His eyes had fallen on another book, which was among a display on a small table : Death Omens : What To Do When You Know The Worst Is Coming.

………But Harry continued to stare at the front cover of the book; it showed a black dog as large as a bear, with gleaming eyes. It looked oddly familiar…

POA – Talons and Tealeaves

‘The grim, my dear, the grim!’ cried Professor Trelawney, who looked shocked that Harry hadn’t understood. ‘The giant, spectral dog that haunts churchyards! My dear boy, it’s an omen – the worst omen – of death!

Harry’s stomach lurched. The dog on the cover of the Death Omens in Flourish and Blotts – the dog in the shadows of Magnolia Crescent…

‘Harry,’ he said in a low, serious voice, ‘you haven’t seen a great black dog anywhere have you?

‘Yeah, I have,’ said Harry. ‘I saw one I left the night I left the Dursleys.’

….’Hermione, if Harry’s seen a Grim, that’s -- that’s bad,’ he said ‘My – my uncle Bilius saw one and – and he died twenty four hours later.’

There are a few more but here I think I have been able to connect the huge big black dog with gleaming eyes to a Grim. While what you say is correct, that Sirius’s animagus is constantly referred to a dog, I think by the descriptions we have, it really is not an ordinary dog, but a Grim, and that is different. I think it is like Harry’s horcrux; it is actually not a horcrux, and yet it is continually referred to as one. It is only a piece of soul inside Harry and yet, we call it a horcrux; likewise, I think the Grim is a dog like creature which is not a dog but is continually referred to as one, because it is convenient to do so IMO.

The post I made was in reply to another post stating that Sirius was a dog and Peter was a rat, and I responded by saying no, Sirius was not a dog, but a Grim. :)

I don't recall them being in hiding and out of touch with the Order for two years. They only went under Fidelius for one week. They may not have made their location known to the public, but I can't remember reading anything that stated they were hidden from the Order and friends and family.

We have it in DH (I am unable to get information so far from other books) that James and Lily were in hiding for quite sometime before they went under the Fidelus IMO. It is in Lily’s letter to Sirius, though I may be wrong about the 2 years. She has written to thank Sirius and it was after Harry’s first birthday, which makes it sometime in August; the birthday itself was in July and no one attended it, because the Potters were in hiding IMO. And James was restless showing that they had been in hiding for some time, because James was probably itching to go out, but could not IMO.

DH – Kreacher’s Tale

We had a quiet birthday tea, just us and old Bathilda………. We were sorry you couldn’t come, but the order’s got to come first and Harry’s not old enough to know it’s his birthday anyway. James is getting a little frustrated shut up here, he tries not to show it but I can tell – also, Dumbledore’s still got his Invisibility cloak, so no chance of little excursions. If you could visit, it could cheer him so much. Wormy was here lask weekend, I thought he seemed down ….

James and Lily were in hiding for some time, and even in the letter which seemed to have been written around Harry’s 1st birthday, there is no mention of Remus. Peter had come around the time of Harry’s birthday, but not Remus apparently IMO.

So perhaps even around Harry's birthday Remus was suspected IMO.

The entire post is my opinion.

And James was restless showing that they had been in hiding for some time, because James was probably itching to go out, but could not IMO.Lily also mentioned that when Peter visited he had seemed troubled. So that tells us that people could visit them. This wasn't after they were under the Fidelius Charm, so their location was known to some. James was feeling restless, but I'll bet anything that he hadn't been shut up in the house without any visitors for two years. That doesn't seem realistic. After all, Lily asked Sirius to come visit them. And Bathtilda also visited with them. We do not know how many people knew where they were at that time, but it was more than just the Marauders.

BTW, all the references to the Grim were just misdirection so we would think the black dog represented danger. Other than Trelawney's mistaken identification of the dog shape in Harry's tea and the crystal ball, no one who knew Sirius was an animagus has ever called him a Grim. Trelawney did see a dog shape, but she was seeing Sirius and erroneously decided it was a Grim. His name was Sirius Black. Sirius is the Dog Star, not the Grim star. So he was a member of the Black family named after the Dog Star, and his animagus form was a dog...a black dog.

I think the Grim is a dog like creature which is not a dog but is continually referred to as one, because it is convenient to do so IMO.
But he wasn't continually referred to as a Grim, only Trelawney did so. And she tended to hysterical pronouncements about Harry's doom. She correctly saw a dog image, but incorrectly decided it was a Grim. Actually, I had thought this had been cleared up once we knew about Sirius being a dog animagus.

Lily also mentioned that when Peter visited he had seemed troubled. So that tells us that people could visit them. This wasn't after they were under the Fidelius Charm, so their location was known to some. James was feeling restless, but I'll bet anything that he hadn't been shut up in the house without any visitors for two years. That doesn't seem realistic. After all, Lily asked Sirius to come visit them. And Bathtilda also visited with them. We do not know how many people knew where they were at that time.

Since Peter was the Secret Kepper, he could visit them any time; Sirius was obviously in on the secret, so he knew the location, and Bathilda's visit could have taken place before th Fidelius was cast, but the letter written after.

Didn't it say somewhere that they had been betrayed two weeks or such after the Charm was performed? If that's the case, the letter must have been written before that, because it seems Harry's birthday had been not long before, and we know they died in November.

Lily also mentioned that when Peter visited he had seemed troubled. So that tells us that people could visit them. This wasn't after they were under the Fidelius Charm, so their location was known to some. James was feeling restless, but I'll bet anything that he hadn't been shut up in the house without any visitors for two years. That doesn't seem realistic. After all, Lily asked Sirius to come visit them. We do not know how many people knew where they were at that time.

I don't know if all people (members of the Order and the like) could visit them; I think the 3 Marauders were of course different becasue they were friends (though Remus is not mentioned by Lily at all); I think they were in hiding with access to their home by others being very restricted; otherwise James need not feel frustrated and shut up in Godric's Hollow. The words frustrated and shut up makes me fell that they were pretty isolated at that time from everyone including the Order IMO.

But he wasn't continually referred to as a Grim, only Trelawney did so.

I think you misunderstood; I said he was continually referred to a a dog, when his animagus form seemed to be more like a Grim's and it was to support that statement I gave those passages from the books (as much as I could find them, anyway :))

Yoana, the time period CBW had written about was much earlier. It was around harry's first birthday in July, before the Potters had gone under the Fidelus IMO. Peter was not the Sk at that time, but had acess to GH because he was a friend; but there is not mention of Remus at all by Lily IMO.

I had mentioned that the Potters were in hiding for almost 2 years, though now I am not sure about the 2 years (I couldn't find canon), I feel they were in hiding for more than the week CBW had suggested IMO.

It is there in POA.

The Marauder's Map

'You'd have thought Black and Potter were brothers!' chimed in Professor Flitwick. 'Inseparable!'

'Of course theory were,' said Fudge. 'Potter trusted Black beyond all his other friends. Nothing changed when they left School. Black was best man when James married Lily. Then they named him godfather to Harry. Harry has no idea of course. You can imagine how the idea would torment him.'

'Because Black turned to be in league with You-Know-Who?' whispered Madam Rosemerta.

'Worse than that mdear...' Fudge dropped his voice and proceeded in a sort of low rumble. 'Not many people are aware that the Potters knew You-Know-Who was after them. Dumbledore who was of course working tirelessly against YKW, had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once.He advised them to go into hiding. Well of course, YKW wasn't an easy person to hide from. Dumbledore told them their best chance was the Fidelus Charm.'

'So Black was their SK?' whispered Madam Rosemerta.

'Naturally,' said Professor McGonagall. 'James Potter told Dumbledore that Black would die rather than tell where they were, that Black was planning to go into hiding himself... and yet Dumbledore remained worried. I remember him offering to be the Potters' SK himself.'

'He suspected Black?' gasped Madam Rosemerta.

'He was sure somebody close to the Potters, had been keeping YKW informed of their movements,' said Professor McGonagall darkly. 'Indeed he had suspected for some time that someone on our side had turned traitor and was passing a lot of information to YKW

'But James Potter insisted on using Black?'
'He did,' said Fudge heavily. 'And then barely a week after the Fidelus Charm had been performed--'

I think what you’ve given is about Peter joining Voldemort and not about suspicions of each other. It was because of Peter there was a spy in the order and because of the spy whose notice was brought to them that the 4 friends suspected one of them to be a traitor and because of that their friendship which was close knit and until that time, they were sure that they would rather die for each other than betray each other. But after they knew that one of them was not a friend that broke the close knit friendship IMO because they ended up suspecting each other and pointing fingers at each other IMO.

‘He – he was taking over everywhere!’ gasped Pettigrew. ‘ what was there to be gained by refusing him?’

………’You don’t understand!’ whined Pettigrew. ‘he would have killed me Sirius.’

‘THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!’ roared Black. ‘DIED RATHERR THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!’

I respect your view, however, I believe that last quote you provided is about dying rather than betraying one's friends as was the first quote you gave, imo ("James Potter told Dumbledore that Black would die rather than tell where they were" - i.e., die rather than betray them). Neither quote speaks directly of trust, but it can be inferred that if the speakers feel they would not be betrayed they trusted the person. We know from canon that Sirius and Remus thought one another the spy (POA) and so it can be inferred that they did not trust one another at the time of the fidelius.

I would agree James made the same comment, however I do not assume that Sirius was the only person he trusted not to betray him. I believe by making Peter his secret keeper he showed trust; I believe that he trusted Lily and Harry and I believe he trusted Remus, but he does not make comments about any of them, in my view, that is because at that moment, the issue was Sirius. :)

POA

‘Harry… I as good as killed them,’ he croaked. ‘I persuaded Lily and James to change to Peter at the last moment, persuaded them to use him as secret keeper instead of me… I’m to blame, I know it…

………'....Wouldn't Sirius have told you, if they changed the plan?'

'Not if he thought I was the spy Peter,' said Lupin, who was now rolling up his sleeves. 'And you will in turn forgive me for believing you were the spy?'

'Forgive me Remus?'

‘Not at all Padfoot, old friend,’ said Lupin, who was now rolling his sleeves. ‘And will you in turn, forgive me for believing you were the spy’

We actually don’t know the exact means by which Sirius persuaded James, because the exact words are not given in the books. But by inference and other sentences pertaining to that week when the Fidelus was first cast and subsequently switched, I have concluded the way I have.

I know that Sirius and Remus suspected each other. I know that Remus was not told about the switch because he was suspected to be the traitor. I know that Dumbledore thought some one very close to the Potters was the spy; I know that it was Sirius who persuaded the Potters; I know that it was Peter and not Remus who was chosen to be the secret keeper and because of all this which is canon, I know that James and Lily agreed to be persuaded, which means IMO they agreed to the switch.

I respect your view, however, I don't understand how you arrived at the part of your conclusion that states "which means IMO they agreed to the switch". If it is an assumption you are making, I can respect your right to make that assumption, however, I personally don't see any support for it in the canon facts you provided before that part. I respect your view if you do. :)

Remus was not told because he was suspected; that's canon. While if he was not the secret - Keeper, he could not reveal the secret to Voldemort, he could nevertheless harm them there or take Harry away from there to Voldemort. That may have been one reason why Remus was left out of the secret even though he could not reveal the secret to Voldemort if he were not secret – Keeper IMO.

I respect your view and the suggested reason you gave for Remus not knowing about the switch. Below is the most relevant reason why I personally believe James and Lily must have trusted that Remus was not the spy:

My interpretation is that Remus could have accessed Godric's Hallow just fine even if the switch was made because he knew where the Potter's were - they were still at Godric's Hallow. If Remus went to Godrics Hallow and could not see or access the house, he would have asked Sirius or Peter what was going on, imo. (like #12 G, and Shell Cottage you could access it only if given a means to do so.) However, Remus knew nothing about the switch nor did he mention anything about not being able to access the house in Canon (POA). This I would interpret to mean that Remus either had access or he never went to the house because like Sirius (during Harry's birthday) was out on Order business at that time. This is also supported, in my opinion, by Remus not being present after the Potter's were killed at Godric's Hallow. Imo, Remus was not in town as that makes the most sense to me. Remus already suspected Sirius and if he were in town, imo, he would have been hunting down Sirius in order to bring him to justice for the Potter's death or at least speak to him about what had happened. Yet in canon, I do not believe that Remus is seen or heard from in any of the scenes depicting the events of the day of or day following the Potter's death.

On the other hand, if Remus was in town, then he would have likely visited his friends and either found no house (because his access was gone) and question Sirius and Peter - or visited because he still had access. In my opinion if James and Lily suspected him, they would not want him to visit and the only way they could ensure he did not, imo, was to either deny him access or move locations before doing the SK. They did not move according to canon, but remained at Godric's Hallow and their is no canon that Remus could not access the house - which I believe he would have definitely mentioned once he found out all about what had happened in POA (i.e., 'that's why I couldn't see the house') - even if he had not mentioned it at the time of the Potter's death to Sirius or Peter, imo. Nonetheless, it would still leave a big plothole imo, because imo, Remus would have immeidately gone after Sirius that night or the next day if he were in town.

Also, as your above quote from canon indicates, the fidelius was only on the home for 1 week before the Potter's died and in POA Sirius says that he switched at the last minute. Thus, it is possible that we are only talking a few hours time period during which Remus was unaware a switch was made because he'd had access (or was out of town) that week, imo. (I explain this more fully below :))

We have nothing in the books that tell us that Remus was away at that time, working for the order, or that he knew about the switch in any way.

I agree; that was an assumption I made because of how I interpreted the canon above. :)

And I think Lupin’s remarks to Harry in Dh, was a reference to Sirius.

I respect your interpretation, but Remus says "friends" in plural, imo, meaning more than one.

It was Sirius Dumbledore was worried about; it was Sirius whom James assured Dumbledore would rather die than betray him; it was Sirius whom James was inseperable with and it was Sirius whom James was closest to, more than or like a brother IMO.

I respect your view, but my interpretation was that Dumbledore would have been worried no matter which Marauder was chosen because he suspected it could have been any of them, imo. I agree with you that James and Sirius were close.

And it was when Sirius was suspected probably because of his death eater family background, James stepped in to say that Sirius was not a traitor, would never be one and that he trusted Sirius more than anyone, perhaps IMO.

I respect your view; my interpretation is that no one, not even Dumbledore would suspect Sirius because of his background. I feel Sirius had made it very clear what he thought of his family and there was no doubting that about him. Imo, Dumbledore was merely attempting to use the process of elimination and came down to the 3 friends. I believe that is why he suggested he be Secret Keeper instead of one of James' other friends. Imo, James didn't trust Dumbledore due to his past association with Grindlewald and also other stories that Bathilda told him and because he'd borrowed James' invisibility cloak.

Okay! I have very little to go on about this. But while I did not base my post on anything but a general belief (at that time), I have tried to get as much canon as I could on this. :)

I made my post saying that there was a difference between an ordinary dog and a grim or a huge dog like creature. That creature was an omen of death, which I took to say that it was Sirius’s persuasion of James and Lily to make the switch that resulted in their deaths in one way. I think JKR may have been trying to show us that in a way. A foreshadow of the events to come, even though we knew it only much later about the Grim and its significance. Sirius was a loyal friend who may have died for James and Lily but he also had another side where he was also reckless, slightly wild and uncaring of the consequences of his actions as well IMO.

POA – The Knight’s Bus
….Harry saw quite distinctly, the hulking outline of something vewry big, with wide, gleaming eyes.

‘There was a big black thing’ said Harry, pointing uncertainly into the gap. ‘Like a dog…but massive….’

This is the first reference to the Grim. It looks like a dog but was also different from a normal dog and Harry seems to have seen many similarities to the Grim, though he did not know about the Grim at that time. ( looking like a dog, but very huge and with gleaming eyes)

POA The Leaky Cauldron

But Harry wasn’t listening. His eyes had fallen on another book, which was among a display on a small table : Death Omens : What To Do When You Know The Worst Is Coming.

………But Harry continued to stare at the front cover of the book; it showed a black dog as large as a bear, with gleaming eyes. It looked oddly familiar…

POA – Talons and Tealeaves

‘The grim, my dear, the grim!’ cried Professor Trelawney, who looked shocked that Harry hadn’t understood. ‘The giant, spectral dog that haunts churchyards! My dear boy, it’s an omen – the worst omen – of death!

Harry’s stomach lurched. The dog on the cover of the Death Omens in Flourish and Blotts – the dog in the shadows of Magnolia Crescent…

‘Harry,’ he said in a low, serious voice, ‘you haven’t seen a great black dog anywhere have you?

‘Yeah, I have,’ said Harry. ‘I saw one I left the night I left the Dursleys.’

….’Hermione, if Harry’s seen a Grim, that’s -- that’s bad,’ he said ‘My – my uncle Bilius saw one and – and he died twenty four hours later.’

There are a few more but here I think I have been able to connect the huge big black dog with gleaming eyes to a Grim. While what you say is correct, that Sirius’s animagus is constantly referred to a dog, I think by the descriptions we have, it really is not an ordinary dog, but a Grim, and that is different. I think it is like Harry’s horcrux; it is actually not a horcrux, and yet it is continually referred to as one. It is only a piece of soul inside Harry and yet, we call it a horcrux; likewise, I think the Grim is a dog like creature which is not a dog but is continually referred to as one, because it is convenient to do so IMO.

I respect your view. My interpretation is distinct. Imo, the "Grim" refers to the Grim Reaper which has been depicted in literature in many forms including dogs, bears, dementor looking creatures, and even in sci fi as regular humans, spirits and robots. I feel Sirius was thought by Harry to be a "Grim" (symbol of death) because he was a large dog - not as large as a bear as in the picture he was looking at - but large. I do not feel Sirius is never referred to as a "Grim" in canon beyond that point and later in the same book (POA), Lupin introduces the various animagi forms to Harry and calls Sirius a dog - not a grim (Cat, Rat and Dog). It is even in the chapter name I just wrote.

We have it in DH (I am unable to get information so far from other books) that James and Lily were in hiding for quite sometime before they went under the Fidelus IMO. It is in Lily’s letter to Sirius, though I may be wrong about the 2 years. She has written to thank Sirius and it was after Harry’s first birthday, which makes it sometime in August; the birthday itself was in July and no one attended it, because the Potters were in hiding IMO. And James was restless showing that they had been in hiding for some time, because James was probably itching to go out, but could not IMO.

DH – Kreacher’s Tale

We had a quiet birthday tea, just us and old Bathilda………. We were sorry you couldn’t come, but the order’s got to come first and Harry’s not old enough to know it’s his birthday anyway. James is getting a little frustrated shut up here, he tries not to show it but I can tell – also, Dumbledore’s still got his Invisibility cloak, so no chance of little excursions. If you could visit, it could cheer him so much. Wormy was here lask weekend, I thought he seemed down ….

James and Lily were in hiding for some time, and even in the letter which seemed to have been written around Harry’s 1st birthday, there is no mention of Remus. Peter had come around the time of Harry’s birthday, but not Remus apparently IMO. So perhaps even around Harry's birthday Remus was suspected IMO.

I respect your view. In this scene, Sirius was not able to come around to visit the Potters because he was away on Order business. I do not understand why Remus too would not be away on Order business at that time. What canon makes you feel that he was in town and simply not visiting? If Sirius knew Remus was away (perhaps they were even together) then Lily would have no need to mention it, imo. Also, Remus too may have sent a gift and Lily wrote him as well, but Harry would have no way of getting that letter as the storyline went unless Remus gave it to him, imo. I feel that Remus would consider it a keepsake as Sirius had his, which was left for, but not given to Harry.

Also, canon provides in POA that Remus believed Sirius to be the secret keeper (POA). So up to one week before the Potter's death (when the SK was first made) Remus was informed (likely by the Potters as Sirius may have not trusted him at that point). So there is only a one week period where Remus could have been in the dark - but in POA Sirius says he made the switch at the last minute which I interpret to mean just prior to the Potter's death and thus Remus would have only been in the dark for a few hours or a day at most, imo. Thus, I believe the maximum total time period that James and Lily could have suspected Remus, if they did at all, is one week - and likely much less, imo. Nonetheless, for the reasons I gave above, I believe that James and Lily did trust that Remus was not the spy and only Sirius believed he was. :)

So the above expresses my interpretation; I respect yours as well. :)

Didn't it say somewhere that they had been betrayed two weeks or such after the Charm was performed? If that's the case, the letter must have been written before that, because it seems Harry's birthday had been not long before, and we know they died in November.We've been addressing the two-year period prior to when they went under the Fidelius charm. I pointed out that we didn't know how many people knew where the Potters were. It could have been the entire Order, or it could have been friends and family and some Order members. But it was no doubt a number larger than just the Marauders themselves, since even Bathilda and Petunia were able to be in contact--with Bathilda being in person. The issue was how many people could have been suspected of being the spy, and it is demonstrably more than just the Marauders. They went under Fidelius charm one week before the attack. Until that point, more than Sirius and Peter knew about the Potters' location.

The letter was clearly written before the Fidelius Charm was used. And up until that point there is no way to quantify how many knew where they were.

I feel they were in hiding for more than the week CBW had suggested IMO.
I never said they were only hiding for one week. I said they were under the Fidelius for one week. Prior to that, they were probably using concealment methods like Hermione used when the trio was camping. What I did say is that we can't know how many people knew where they were prior to the Fidelius charm. And I also seriously doubt that they stayed locked up with no visitors for two years.

Canon states that a spy had been passing information for one year. JKR said they went into hiding after Lily became pregnant. But that wasn't the Fidelius charm.

Dumbledore suspected that someone close to the Potters was passing information to Voldemort. Although the most likely suspect was a Marauder, we really don't know who James and Lily may have suspected. Maybe they thought it was some other Order member or maybe a neighbor who liked to look in windows. In fact, it seems as if James may have thought that the spy had to be someone other than a Marauder, since he was said to have trusted his friends. All in my opinion, of course.

That's how it always looked to me. There's no certain way to narrow it down any further.

I don't recall them being in hiding and out of touch with the Order for two years. They only went under Fidelius for one week. They may not have made their location known to the public, but I can't remember reading anything that stated they were hidden from the Order and friends and family.
bold mine

I never said they were only hiding for one week.

My mistake. I took the words I have bolded in the above post to think so. :)

I also think they were isolated because there is not reason for James to feel frustrated and shut up; and missing his invisibility cloak.

That made me feel that they were in hiding without others having access to them and they could not go out, that was why James missed his invisibility cloak, according to Lily IMO.

I said they were under the Fidelius for one week. Prior to that, they were probably using concealment methods like Hermione used when the trio was camping. What I did say is that we can't know how many people knew where they were prior to the Fidelius charm. And I also seriously doubt that they stayed locked up with no visitors for two years.

I don't know as I said about the 2 years, mainly because I am unable to find canon for it, but I think they were very much in hiding for a long time; perhaps from the time Lily was pregnant as they were in the Order and therefore targets IMO.

Dumbledore suspected that someone close to the Potters was passing information to Voldemort. Although the most likely suspect was a Marauder, we really don't know who James and Lily may have suspected. Maybe they thought it was some other Order member or maybe a neighbor who liked to look in windows. In fact, it seems as if James may have thought that the spy had to be someone other than a Marauder, since he was said to have trusted his friends. All in my opinion, of course.

It was because James told Dumbledore that Black would never betray him; he would rather die than do that, I feel that James refused to believe Dumbeldore's suspicions about Sirius. But since IMO thye made the switch without telling Remus and we come to know that Sirius and remus suspected each other that I feel James did take seriously Sirius's suspicions that Remus may be a traitor IMO.

I respect your view, however, I believe that last quote you provided is about dying rather than betraying one's friends as was the first quote you gave, imo ("James Potter told Dumbledore that Black would die rather than tell where they were" - i.e., die rather than betray them). Neither quote speaks directly of trust, but it can be inferred that if the speakers feel they would not be betrayed they trusted the person. We know from canon that Sirius and Remus thought one another the spy (POA) and so it can be inferred that they did not trust one another at the time of the fidelius.

I agree with you that Remus and Sirius thought each other as spy at the time of the Fidelus. But if Sirius persuaded James to make the switch and if Sirius suspected Remus, I think that means Sirius was able to also convince James that Remus was the traitor.

Don't you think Sirius would have shared his suspicions with James? Don't you think Sirius would have told James that he was sure Remus was the traitor in his opinion?

We have Sirius and Remus suspecting each other. Now they are not the persons who could take a decision one way or the other. James chose to make the switch without Remus's knowledge. So James too, did not intend tell Remus, and nowhere in the books do we have a line where James wanted Remus to know, but he died before he could tell him. What we have in canon is James agreed to be persuaded by Sirius to make the switch. I think Sirius persuaded James by convincing him about his own suspicions of Remus IMO. The switch was made IMO.

I respect your view, however, I don't understand how you arrived at the part of your conclusion that states "which means IMO they agreed to the switch". If it is an assumption you are making, I can respect your right to make that assumption, however, I personally don't see any support for it in the canon facts you provided before that part. I respect your view if you do. :)

They made the switch. I am sure Sirius would have shared his suspicions of Remus with James. James agreed to the switch. Rmeus did not know. I think James also believed in Sirius's suspicions IMO.

My interpretation is that Remus could have accessed Godric's Hallow just fine even if the switch was made because he knew where the Potter's were - they were still at Godric's Hallow. If Remus went to Godrics Hallow and could not see or access the house, he would have asked Sirius or Peter what was going on, imo. (like #12 G, and Shell Cottage you could access it only if given a means to do so.) However, Remus knew nothing about the switch nor did he mention anything about not being able to access the house in Canon (POA). This I would interpret to mean that Remus either had access or he never went to the house because like Sirius (during Harry's birthday) was out on Order business at that time. This is also supported, in my opinion, by Remus not being present after the Potter's were killed at Godric's Hallow. Imo, Remus was not in town as that makes the most sense to me. Remus already suspected Sirius and if he were in town, imo, he would have been hunting down Sirius in order to bring him to justice for the Potter's death or at least speak to him about what had happened. Yet in canon, I do not believe that Remus is seen or heard from in any of the scenes depicting the events of the day of or day following the Potter's death.

Then we would never have Remus saying that he was not told about the switch because he was thought the traitor. It was not enough that Sirius alone thought him the traitor. That is worth nothing. Dumbledore was worried even after James told him he was sure about Black. Dumbeldore's concerns are not enough. James has also to accept those as true for him to act upon it. James when Dumbledore offered to be SK, brushed it aside, saying that he trusted Sirius more than his life IMO.

But that was not the case when James and Lily made the switch because they agreed to be persuaded by Sirius. Which means they did not dismiss his concerns like james did with Dumbeldore. That means James and Lily agreed to the switch. It was not Sirius's responsilbility. It was James and Lily's. And they agreed with Sirius and allowed themselves to be persuaded. Which means they too thought Remus was the traitor IMO.

I respect your interpretation, but Remus says "friends" in plural, imo, meaning more than one.

It could be Sirius and Peter IMO; but I think that was meant for Sirius only.

Don't you think Sirius would have shared his suspicions with James? Don't you think Sirius would have told James that he was sure Remus was the traitor in his opinion?

In answer to your question: In my opinion, Sirius and Remus may have both shared their feelings with James about the other, but if they did, I feel James would have told them both that they were nuts and that he trusted them both. Also, in my opinion, Sirius and Remus may have both not told James their suspicions knowing how he felt about them all already and knowing that it was pointless to say anything. So I could go either way on that. :)

By WWB: My interpretation is that Remus could have accessed Godric's Hallow just fine even if the switch was made because he knew where the Potter's were - they were still at Godric's Hallow. If Remus went to Godrics Hallow and could not see or access the house, he would have asked Sirius or Peter what was going on, imo. (like #12 G, and Shell Cottage you could access it only if given a means to do so.) However, Remus knew nothing about the switch nor did he mention anything about not being able to access the house in Canon (POA). This I would interpret to mean that Remus either had access or he never went to the house because like Sirius (during Harry's birthday) was out on Order business at that time. This is also supported, in my opinion, by Remus not being present after the Potter's were killed at Godric's Hallow. Imo, Remus was not in town as that makes the most sense to me. Remus already suspected Sirius and if he were in town, imo, he would have been hunting down Sirius in order to bring him to justice for the Potter's death or at least speak to him about what had happened. Yet in canon, I do not believe that Remus is seen or heard from in any of the scenes depicting the events of the day of or day following the Potter's death.

On the other hand, if Remus was in town, then he would have likely visited his friends and either found no house (because his access was gone) and question Sirius and Peter - or visited because he still had access. In my opinion if James and Lily suspected him, they would not want him to visit and the only way they could ensure he did not, imo, was to either deny him access or move locations before doing the SK. They did not move according to canon, but remained at Godric's Hallow and their is no canon that Remus could not access the house - which I believe he would have definitely mentioned once he found out all about what had happened in POA (i.e., 'that's why I couldn't see the house') - even if he had not mentioned it at the time of the Potter's death to Sirius or Peter, imo. Nonetheless, it would still leave a big plothole imo, because imo, Remus would have immeidately gone after Sirius that night or the next day if he were in town.

Also, as your above quote from canon indicates, the fidelius was only on the home for 1 week before the Potter's died and in POA Sirius says that he switched at the last minute. Thus, it is possible that we are only talking a few hours time period during which Remus was unaware a switch was made because he'd had access (or was out of town) that week, imo.

BY TGW: Then we would never have Remus saying that he was not told about the switch because he was thought the traitor. It was not enough that Sirius alone thought him the traitor. That is worth nothing. Dumbledore was worried even after James told him he was sure about Black. Dumbeldore's concerns are not enough. James has also to accept those as true for him to act upon it. James when Dumbledore offered to be SK, brushed it aside, saying that he trusted Sirius more than his life IMO

But that was not the case when James and Lily made the switch because they agreed to be persuaded by Sirius. Which means they did not dismiss his concerns like james did with Dumbeldore. That means James and Lily agreed to the switch. It was not Sirius's responsilbility. It was James and Lily's. And they agreed with Sirius and allowed themselves to be persuaded. Which means they too thought Remus was the traitor IMO.

I respect your view, but I have put both my quote and your answer to it together and I am not sure what you mean in terms of what I said. With respect to your first paragraph, in my judgment, Remus would still not have known that he was suspected by Sirius based on what I said, so he would still make his comment that Sirius made the switch because he believed he was the spy. I feel Remus discovered the whole truth in POA. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant?

With respect to your second paragraph, I respect your view, but it does not help me understand how James and Lily planned to keep Remus from knowing where they were or from accessing the house itself. If they didn't trust him, wouldn't they wish to do those things? Also, what is the connection you are making with respect to the fact that James and Lily had to have been persuaded to not trust Remus in order to agree to make the switch? Sirius said his reason was that Peter was talentless and the least likely person for Voldemort to approach (POA TSOLV). Why wouldn't he use that same reasoning to convince James and Lily? And if he did, why would Sirius have to bring up the issue of Remus at all?

Sorry so many questions, but I am a little confused. :)

also think they were isolated because there is not reason for James to feel frustrated and shut up; and missing his invisibility cloak.Bathilda visited with them. If they were willing to have her visit, why not have other trusted Order members?

They were not exactly holding open house and garden parties, but it isn't reasonable to assume that no one visited with them for two years.

Bathilda visited with them. If they were willing to have her visit, why not have other trusted Order members?

They were not exactly holding open house and garden parties, but it isn't reasonable to assume that no one visited with them for two years.I'd have to agree they probably had some visitors, likely Dumbledore himself among them. They'd have limited it to a very select few who were able to come calling, but I imagine they weren't completely cut off from the outside world.

From the Sirius thread:James really was the heart of the Marauders in my opinion.I'm not sure I see James as being the center of the Marauders. I'd also argue that Remus acted as a sort of "glue" holding the Marauders together, though I wouldn't call him the center either. Remus brought all of them together on full moon nights where they would romp around the grounds as animagi. All three of them chose to become animagi for him. So in a sense, you could say that Remus tied the entire group together. I think in general, James and Sirius were the heads of the group as nearly inseparable "brothers" - the strong personalities who tied the rest of the friends together overall. As for Peter and Remus - I'd definitely call Peter a follower, a groupie if you will - not quite equal to the dynamic duo (Sirius and James). As for Remus, I suppose he is a follower as well, but in a very different way then Peter. Unlike Wormtail, I think Remus was seen as an equal.

With respect to your second paragraph, I respect your view, but it does not help me understand how James and Lily planned to keep Remus from knowing where they were or from accessing the house itself. If they didn't trust him, wouldn't they wish to do those things?

The Fidelus charm does all that. Grimmauld Place is completely concealed even to Bellatrix and Narcissa once Dumbledore placed it under the Fidelus IMO.

Also, what is the connection you are making with respect to the fact that James and Lily had to have been persuaded to not trust Remus in order to agree to make the switch?

Okay this is my theory. :)

I think Sirius told James about Remus and that the best way to protect all of them from him would be to switch SK so that Remus would not be able to access the house. While Sirius was still SK, Dumbeldore and Remus knew it as well. That was why they kept quiet when the Potters were killed. Once the switch was made Godric's Hollow was closed to Remus whom Sirius thought was the spy. And by agreeing to the switch I think as I have said many times before, James and Lily agreed too IMO.

Sirius said his reason was that Peter was talentless and the least likely person for Voldemort to approach (POA TSOLV). Why wouldn't he use that same reasoning to convince James and Lily?

I think they went for Peter instead of Dumbledore or another person from the Order was because they felt Peter to be a talentless thing with no noodles. Voldemort in his wildest dreams would never guess the SK, they may have thought. That was another error of judgement IMO.

I feel that (I have posted this before as well) that James and Lily never took the right steps to flush out the traitor. They never made sure that there was no traitor among them, before trusting one of them to be the SK. Instead they decide that Remus was and act on it without any basis IMO. And sadly I think they paid the price for it IMO.

And if he did, why would Sirius have to bring up the issue of Remus at all?

Peter was for the SK. The SK would be safe because no one would guess. Remus was the real issue they were changing SK. It was to keep Remus out that they went to such lengths IMO.

From the James Potter thread
I don't understand your point about the traitor. Could you expand? :)

James knew there was a traitor. he was convinced it was not Sirius. Instead of verifying Sirius suspicions about the said traitor, I feel James, Lily and Sirius simply acted upon it, and by doing so, they hurt Remus very badly and trusted the wrong person who sold them out IMO.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods
I think it could be something as simple as, Sirius wasn't, Peter was incapable and so that leaves only Remus.

Another point of view could be Remus's werewolf background.

Yet another one could be Peter poisoning Sirius against Remus and Remus against Sirius. Though, I don;t think Remus would buy it, he seems clever enough not to fall for it, but then again I don't know. Right now I can't think of any other.
If this theory is correct, then I'll have to wonder if the Marauders were really such good friends as everyone believed them to be. Why was Sirius so sure that Peter was incapable to betray them? Because Peter was talentless and cowardly and dim? Didn't Sirius respect Peter at all? Some friendship.:rolleyes:
As for Lupin, the Marauders didn't seem to care about his werewolf status at school. Did they think that Lupin's missions where he probably contacted other werevolves somehow corrupted him? If this was the case, then they did have prejudices about werevolves. Was this really the reason they suspected him?

I think it is time to post a little reminder of this thread: How to have a pleasant conversation on any topic (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108019).
*sigh* The CoS Staff keeps telling us to keep things friendly and polite! How can I do that AND stun the world with the brilliance of my ideas! How can I be both polite AND make sure everyone knows that I'm Right and They're Wrong?

A few tips:
Take a deep breath. It's possible that the other members do have something to contribute. Read their posts with an open mind and respond accordingly.
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Support your ideas whenever possible but bear in mind that your ideas are only ideas. Your ideas are not canon unless JKR has said the same thing verbatim in a book or interview*.
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I felt that their friendship was not everything it seemed, when I read and re-read the werewolf incident. That memory in the TPT really haunts me for so many reasons, many belonging to Snape, but a few to Remus and Sirius IMO.

Sirius seemed almost uncaring about how the whole prank would affect Remus and he displays the same careless attitude in POA almost 20 years later IMO.

Though, I think James and Sirius were really that good and thick friends, I think their friendship with Remus and Peter was on another level. Remus, I think they accepted, while Peter they tolerated IMO.

Peter was for the SK. The SK would be safe because no one would guess. Remus was the real issue they were changing SK. It was to keep Remus out that they went to such lengths IMO.

I respect your view and your theory. However, I interpret the canon distinctly, so I feel we have to agree to disagree. It has been fun discussing it though as I enjoy new theories. :)

And they agreed with Sirius and allowed themselves to be persuaded. Which means they too thought Remus was the traitor IMO.
There's no canon that they did it because they distrusted Remus, They decided to do it because they thought the idea of using Peter would be "the perfect plan...a bluff." That's word for word canon, so that's their reason.

I feel that (I have posted this before as well) that James and Lily never took the right steps to flush out the traitor. They never made sure that there was no traitor among them, before trusting one of them to be the SK. Instead they decide that Remus was and act on it without any basis IMO. And sadly I think they paid the price for it IMO.
Well, ignoring the fact that they had to die for the plotline to work, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that everyone, Dumbledore, the Order, and the Marauders, would not have tried their best to flush out the spy. It's only natural human behavior to do so when confronted with such a situation. But Peter would have covered his tracks well, like successful spies do. And he would have made sure that suspicion fell elsewhere (Sirius and Remus for instance), like successful spies do. And he carried it on for a year, resulting in the Potter's death, so he was a successful spy.

But the search for the spy wasn't relevant to the storyline, and JKR has always been sparing with her backstory. And I don't ever think it's fair to fault characters for something that wasn't included in the storyline. There is an infinite universe of possible events that weren't in the books.

Well, ignoring the fact that they had to die for the plotline to work,

I believe this is the crucial point because in my opinion, nothing the Marauders or Lily chose to do would have stopped Snape from running to relay the prophecy to Voldemort or have stopped Voldemort from attempting to murder Harry. Based on JKR's storyline, the Potter's deaths were fated no matter what means Voldemort ultimately came up with as a result of knowing the prophecy given to him, because she indicated that she wanted Harry to be an orphan and she gave him a reason to wish to go after Voldemort (his parent's deaths).

I feel ultimately that the beauty of the friendship between the Marauders was shown in both Remus and Sirius attempting to do the best they could to keep their friends alive and protect and mentor their son following their deaths. To me that speaks to the special nature of the Marauder's friendship and the deep love and honor between them that played out in the end. Additionally, as Master of Death pointed out in another thread, even Peter's final act was in hesitation due to his recognition of the basis of the Marauder James friendship - the debt Peter owed because of how James and Lily's son had previously acted toward him, as James would have according to Dumbledore. Harry and Dumbledore indicated in DH that Peter felt regret in that moment (because the life debt is not magical, but personal according to JKR) and acted on that and that played out in the end too. In my view, that wraps up a very cool legacy of the friendship of the four Marauders in the earthly wizard world - and it was great to see them all still together in the afterworld - even if Peter was not present because Harry understandably didn't invite him.

And they agreed with it because they thought the idea of using Peter would be "the perfect plan...a bluff." That's word for word canon, so that's their reason.

I agree; but a bluff for whom? I think that's where I differ from many others; I think since Sirius and by extention James (I am assuming James was persuaded because he made the switch) thought it was the perfect plan. No one knew; not even Dumbledore and certainly not Remus IMO. No one would guess that Peter was the SK. If Remus was the traitor, he would come after Sirius and even if Remus took him to Voldemort, Sirius would not be able to tell the secret because he was not the SK IMO.

And by making sure Remus did not know of the switch, they also ensured that he would not come to the Potters home and attack them there or take Harry away to Voldemort; Harry was the chosen One and he was the one Voldemort needed. Another reason not to tell Remus about the switch IMO.

On a completely unrelated note, I wonder why James did not become the SK himself like Bill Weasley and Arthur. That was for the plotline I suppose, because the Potters would have lived happily with Harry in that case IMO. :)


Well, ignoring the fact that they had to die for the plotline to work, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that everyone, Dumbledore, the Order, and the Marauders, would not have tried their best to flush out the spy. It's only natural human behavior to do so when confronted with such a situation. But Peter would have covered his tracks well, like successful spies do. And he would have made sure that suspicion fell elsewhere (Sirius and Remus for instance), like successful spies do. And he carried it on for a year, resulting in the Potter's death, so he was a successful spy.

Dumbledore IMO did not do a good enough job on that. In POA Sirius says Peter was passing on information to Voldmeort for more than a year before he betrayed the Potters. In OOTP Moody and Remus tell Harry about how they were *sitting ducks* and how the DEs picked them off one by one in the first war IMO. Perhaps those members were pointed out by Peter who gave important information to Voldemort about their routine which helped the DEs to kill them IMO.

Dumbledore, we learn in POA was sure of a spy for some time. And yet we don't hear about how much Dumbledore tried , but was unable to flush out the traitor IMO.

While I agree that he may have done so, but he was unsuccessful, I cannot believe it of the Marauders.

There was no verification by James and Lily to check if the person they were going to use for the switch was not a DE. They went on an assumption that the person they chose was a weak little thing with no courage and guts to betray them IMO. The moment Dumbledore brought information about a spy close to the Potters, I think they should have checked everyone from Bathilda Bagshot to Sirius Black. They never did and went on to change SK without Dumbledore's knowledge and suspecting Remus to be the traitor. That cost them, their child and the friend whom James Potter was sure would rather die than betray him IMO.

But the search for the spy wasn't relevant to the storyline, and JKR has always been sparing with her backstory. And I don't ever think it's fair to fault characters for something that wasn't included in the storyline. There is an infinite universe of possible events that weren't in the books.

I have been trying to find a reason as to why Remus was away from Harry for 13 years and also tried to find why James and Lily switched SK. And I really feel JKR has given us a lot about it in POA, especially. The whole HP story begins from Lily's death, when Harry gets his protection that finally saved him in the Forest., To that extent I feel the Potters death is very important to the story. We learn they were betrayed and we learn that Remus and Sirius suspected each other. Also, we learn that Sirius persuaded James to make a switch that actually got them killed. The responsibility of that action was on Sirius, James and Lily IMO.

I was and am still interested to know why and for what reason they would need a switch, when under the Fidelus charm they were completely safe and protected. Sirius would rather die than betray them. So why do the switch at all?

That question led me to search and find that Remus was suspected by Sirius; and while Remus in turn suspected Sirius, James trusted Sirius completely. So the switch was made for Remus and that decision was taken by James and Lily who decided to listen to Sirius and switch. I also feel that was a poor way to go about making such important decisions, all just because Sirius and (James) felt that Peter was a talentless thing, weak and totally incapable of being a DE. That was an arrogance, I cannot help feeling, of the highest degree, when based upon this one fact, they decide to switch SK from Sirius to Peter IMO.

And this also partially explains to me, why Remus never went to see Harry.

I think after the incident with Snape, Sirius and Remus had a huge falling out. Sirius stayed with James because they were so close, Remus went off on his own and Peter ended up in the dark side. This would explain why Sirius suspected Remus - I think the 'just because he was a werewolf' argument is stupid. I think Sirius held a grudge because Remus held a grudge against him for trying to make him a murderer. Thus, no one noticed that Peter had been recruited, and Peter wouldn't have gone out of his way to be on the darkside as the dark side wanted Lily and James they probably tried each of the marauders who all adamantly said 'no' except for Peter who probably felt left out.
And when the time came to realise there was a spy, Sirius and Remus quickly thought of each other (I think Sirius tried to persuade the POtters and Remus tried to persuade Dumbledore). Then Sirius came up with bluffing the DEs and making Peter SK. I don't think Peter would've had the guts to come up with the idea himself.
As for Remus staying away, I think he partly ha very low self-esteem being a werewolf, partly he went with Dumbledore's plan and partly he thought that Sirius might've been the traitor and was ashamed his plan hadn't worked in informing Dumbledore and he couldn't bring himself to see Harry again - the living symbol of his failure to save James and Lily.

I agree; but a bluff for whom?
A bluff for Voldemort. Here's the entire quote: "I thought it was the perfect plan... a bluff...Voldemort would be sure to come after me, would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless thing like you.... It must have been the finest moment of your miserable life, telling Voldemort you could hand him the Potters."

I think after the incident with Snape, Sirius and Remus had a huge falling out. Sirius stayed with James because they were so close, Remus went off on his own and Peter ended up in the dark side.

That is an interesting idea too. :). But we saw that Sirius and Remus were getting along after the incident in SWM, plus they had just become animagi and they continued "many" moolight wanderings after that with Sirius and James keeping Remus at bay (POA/DH). Remus tells us about James, what he was doing and such and about his personality in 7th year, so they were still good friends then (OOTP). Also, after Hogwarts, James supported Remus we they all joined the Order together (JKR interview Mugglenet Interview). So I believe that shows Remus doesn't go off on his own based on those things. I also feel that Remus being a werewolf had nothing to do with Remus and Sirius believing the other with a spy. I feel they simply felt it was one of the Marauders, discounted Peter and that left them with each other to suspect. I feel that based on Lily's letter and the fact that Remus says in DH that James would have thought it the height of dishonor to distrust his friends, James and Lily believed it was someone other than their closest friends. I don't think Remus knew where Harry was; Dumbledore didn't tell anyone except Hagrid and McGonagall in canon as I recall. :)

By ComicBookWormA bluff for Voldemort. Here's the entire quote By Sirius: "I thought it was the perfect plan... a bluff...Voldemort would be sure to come after me, would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless thing like you.... It must have been the finest moment of your miserable life, telling Voldemort you could hand him the Potters."

I agree, Sirius was speaking about Voldemort. Within the context of the story in POA, Sirius was speaking to the man who played a role in killing James and Lily; he was enraged and he did not consider Peter his friend at that time - he was going to kill him shortly thereafter. That is why he spoke the way he did, and I felt his feelings about Peter at that time came through for the reader. Back when Sirius wished him to be secret keeper, he considered him a friend and I feel he would have felt Peter to be vulnerable and less talented than the other Marauders (which based on the canon appeared to be true - SWM). But I do not feel he would have thought of him in the same terms he used in the Shrieking Shack where he realized he was talking to a disloyal, man who had betrayed them all and the Potters specifically to Voldemort - he wanted to murder him :lol:.

Dumbledore IMO did not do a good enough job on that. In POA Sirius says Peter was passing on information to Voldmeort for more than a year before he betrayed the Potters. In OOTP Moody and Remus tell Harry about how they were *sitting ducks* and how the DEs picked them off one by one in the first war IMO. Perhaps those members were pointed out by Peter who gave important information to Voldemort about their routine which helped the DEs to kill them IMO.
We weren't shown what they tried. But that doesn't mean that they didn't try. All we can take from the canon is that they didn't succeed in identifying the spy. It's just as reasonable to assume that Peter was a skilled spy.

Look it's just unfair to critique characters based on what wasn't in the books. There's no way to know what they did or didn't do, so criticizing them for something that wasn't in the books is a non-starter in my opinion. I could dream up endless failings for all the characters and attack them for it, but it would be empty since we can't know what really did happen.

I also feel that was a poor way to go about making such important decisions, all just because Sirius and (James) felt that Peter was a talentless thing, weak and totally incapable of being a DE. That was an arrogance, I cannot help feeling, of the highest degree, when based upon this one fact, they decide to switch SK from Sirius to Peter IMO.
It wasn't arrogance, it was deep trust that came from a close friendship. It was loyalty to their dearest friends.

BTW, Remus didn't visit Harry at the Dursleys because the plot demanded that Harry live in miserable circumstances and not know he was a wizard until he got his letter. And I don't think JKR had the Marauder plotline developed until she wrote PoA. But if you want another reason besides plot demands, Dumbledore may have wanted Harry isolated from the wizarding world to keep him safe. It would have been dangerous for known friends of the the Potters to visit the Dursleys because they might have been noticed by vengeful DEs, thus calling attention to the Dursleys...and Harry.

don't think Remus knew where Harry was; Dumbledore didn't tell anyone except Hagrid and McGonagall in canon as I recall.
Exactly. And canon is all we have that is solid to do on.

A bluff for Voldemort. Here's the entire quote:

Yes and in the quote, JKR has very cleverly given us those gaps. And they can be interpreted in many ways IMO.

Bold are the words from POA and the rest my interpretation of events that happened in Godric's Hollow after the Fidelus was cast IMO

I thought it was the perfect plan -- Sirius thought that the switch was the best plan

there is a gap between the words above and the next and a gap after that

...a bluff.... -- Here I differ from others slightly. While I agree with you it was a bluff for Voldemort, but I also think that the bluff was for Remus as well. He would have no access toi the house, which means he would not have any opportunity to take Harry away to Voldemort. So the words can be taken either way IMO. And I think it was as much for Remus as it was for Voldemort, because at that time Sirius did feel Remus was Voldemort's man IMO and thre fore as dangerous as his Master IMO.

Voldemort would be sure to come after me, would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless thing like you... -- If Remus who knew about the first Fidelus tells Voldemort, then Voldemort would come after him to torture him to tell him the secret.

The point here is, Voldemort did NOT know they were under the Fidelus. Because apart from James, Lily, Sirius, Lupin, Peter and Dumbeldore no one knew about the Fidelus.

And the Fidelus on a home like Grimmauld Place was able to keep all the DE Balcks out of it. It was such a powerful charm, and Voldemort would have no reason to even think they would have gone under the Fidelus in the first place, unless someone told him IMO.

So that tells me one thing. The traitor was among the people I have mentioned above. Discounting James and Lily, the traitor was one of the four. Since it was Dumbledore who told them about the traitor in the first place, I eliminate him as well.

Left are the 3 remaining Marauders. Sirius was trusted more than his life by James Potter. So left behind are Peter and Remus IMO.

Now all of these people had access to GH, and all of them knew Sirius was the SK. So the traitor could tell Voldemort about the Sk and Voldemort would hunt Sirius down and torture him and get the secret. Then the Potters would be in danger IMO.

Because if they did not think like this, then the switch makes no sense to me.

Then, because they concluded IMO, Remus to be the traitor, they went ahead and did the switch secretly IMO.

By doing this what they would first stop Remus's access to the House. Harry was safe IMO.

Second, even if Remus would tell Voldemort about the SK and Voldemort would come and capture Sirius, it would be futile, because the enchantment does not work that way. Sirius would not be able to tell the secret. And no one DE their right minds would suspect that the Potters entrusted their safety to a weak and talentless thing like Peter and so Peter would be safe, the secret would be safe, and Sirius would go into hiding ans he would be safe as well IMO.

ETA :: It is canon that Sirius and Remus thought each other the spy; and it is canon that Remus was not told about the switch because he was thought the spy IMO.

but I also think that the bluff was for Remus as well. He would have no access toi the house, which means he would not have any opportunity to take Harry away to Voldemort.

Remus would know if he hadn't had access to the house (he wouldn't see it or be able to access it), which means he would know that the secret keeper had been switched. In POA, Remus said he didn't know the secret keeper had been switched, so he had to have had access to the house. :)

The point here is, Voldemort did NOT know they were under the Fidelus.
Of course Voldemort knew. Peter told him. but I also think that the bluff was for Remus as well.
It wasn't in the text, and there was no reason to exclude it at that point. Both Sirius and Remus admitted they distrusted each other, why not go the further step and admit they did the switch to deliberately leave Remus out. The bluff was a last minute switch. For all we know, Peter might have promised to tell Remus, but didn't to cast suspicion on him. We have canon why they made the switch, and we have canon why they thought it was a bluff. It's very solid canon. Sirius was willing to die by acting like a decoy. That was the reason they thought the bluff would work.

I'm not going to get into reading special meaning in pauses and gaps. That's the same as critiquing a character for what wasn't in the books. It's entirely subjective.

So that tells me one thing. The traitor was among the people I have mentioned above. Discounting James and Lily, the traitor was one of the four. Since it was Dumbledore who told them about the traitor in the first place, I eliminate him as well. Left are the 3 remaining Marauders. Sirius was trusted more than his life by James Potter. So left behind are Peter and Remus IMO. I don't know how to assume that it was only the four of them that were suspected, since the Fidelius was intended to keep out all others. Frankly, the contrary is true. Those are the only people who were trusted.

Remus would know if he hadn't had access to the house (he wouldn't see it or be able to access it), which means he would know that the secret keeper had been switched. In POA, Remus said he didn't know the secret keeper had been switched, so he had to have had access to the house. :)

WOW! That is a great point Wicked! :)

You are right of course, that Remus would know at once if the House was not open to him, and if he knew, he was thought of as the traitor, then Remus keeping away from Harry makes a lot of sense IMO.

But Remus did not know SK were switched because he too thought Sirius to be the SK for all those years.

I think Remus would not necessarily think that SKs were switched, only the Fidelus was altered to keep him out. Which would mean that the Fidelus was recast, perhaps and this time he was not in on the secret.

Another thing could be that Remus never tried to go to Godric's Hollow, because he knew he was suspected from the time James trusted Sirius to make him SK.

Then that may mean James already chose between Remus and Sirius. And persuading James to make the switch may relate to Peter more than Remus, because Sirius says he had to persuade James to choose Peter as the SK. So the debate may not mean *was Remus a traitor or not* but *would Peter be okay or not* IMO.

2 scenarios.... What do you think? :)

posted by CBW
I don't know how to assume that it was only the four of them that were suspected, since the Fidelius was intended to keep out all others. Frankly, the contrary is true. Those are the only people who were trusted.

It was because one of the four was suspected that the switch was made IMO. Otherwise there would be no need to make the switch at all IMO. The Potters were already safe from others after the Fidelus was cast IMO.

It was because one of the four was suspected that the switch was made IMO. Otherwise there would be no need to make the switch at all IMO. The Potters were already safe from others after the Fidelius was cast IMO.
The book tells us why the switch was made. They thought it would misdirect Voldemort from the true Secret Keeper, then Sirius could be a decoy, since no one would think the Secret Keeper was Peter. They did not do it to fool Remus. I'm sorry, the book is quite clear on that.

If they wanted to exclude Remus, they could have just ended the spell in secret and recast it again, still using Sirius as Secret Keeper, and then they could have deliberately excluded Remus the second time around. They didn't need to switch to exclude Remus. They switched because they thought it would fool Voldemort not Remus.

Besides, I think that the Fidelius Charm removes knowledge of a location from people's minds. How else could Bellatrix become unable to locate Grimmauld Place? If that's the case, Remus would have noticed immediately if he suddenly forgot where the Potters were.

WOW! That is a great point Wicked! :)

You are right of course, that Remus would know at once if the House was not open to him, and if he knew, he was thought of as the traitor, then Remus keeping away from Harry makes a lot of sense IMO.

Remus did not know that Sirius believed him to be the spy, he asked Sirius if that was the reason in POA. (POA The Servant of Lord Voldemort). Further, the reasoning is circular:

Consider this: If Remus had believed Sirius thought him the spy, he would have never have thought Sirius was the spy. That is because Remus cannot both believe that Sirius was the spy and believe that Sirius thought him the spy at the same time. (The same goes for Sirius.)

Here it is a little clearer:

Remus believes Sirius is the spy
Remus believes Sirius does not think any one else could be the spy because he knows he himself is the spy
So, Remus cannot believe that Sirius thinks he is a spy (traitor)

But Remus did not know SK were switched because he too thought Sirius to be the SK for all those years.

Correct as per the canon, POA - Wormtail, Moony, Padfoot & Prongs. :)

I think Remus would not necessarily think that SKs were switched, only the Fidelus was altered to keep him out. Which would mean that the Fidelus was recast, perhaps and this time he was not in on the secret.

If Remus could not see or access the house, even if he thought it was because it was re-cast without his knowledge, we are back at the first problem again - Remus would believe that he was thought the traitor. It would be illogical for him to believe Sirius thought he was the spy - seeing as he believed Sirius was the spy himself as I explained above. To clarify: Remus believed that Sirius knew he was not the spy, because Sirius was the spy.

Another thing could be that Remus never tried to go to Godric's Hollow, because he knew he was suspected from the time James trusted Sirius to make him SK. Then that may mean James already chose between Remus and Sirius.

James was said to have considered it the highest dishonor to mistrust his friends (DH - Fallen Warrior). I believe that, so I would respectfully disagree that he distrusted any of his friends. :)

And persuading James to make the switch may relate to Peter more than Remus, because Sirius says he had to persuade James to choose Peter as the SK. So the debate may not mean *was Remus a traitor or not* but *would Peter be okay or not* IMO.

Sirius, according to canon, indicated why he made the switch. He said that it was more likely that Voldemort would approach him than Peter. (see quote above) Imo, that means he felt Voldemort would more likely approach Remus than Peter too (which is why he was not made secret keeper either, like Sirius). Since Sirius indicated why he made the switch, imo, that is the reason he would have given James and Lily. James and Lily would likely be convinced that Sirius and Remus would be approached by Voldemort before Peter. So they agreed to make the switch - trusting that all of their friends were on their side, but they were mistaken about Peter.

I agree that Sirius had a secondary reason for not wanting Remus to be secret keeper; as he said in canon, he thought he was the spy. Remus did not likely wish for Sirius to be the secret keeper for the same reason. In my opinion, they likely both expressed their opinions to James which is when he said to them both: "I would consider it the height of dishonor to mistrust any of you". That is how Remus found out that James felt that way, imo.

It was because one of the four was suspected that the switch was made IMO. Otherwise there would be no need to make the switch at all IMO. The Potters were already safe from others after the Fidelus was cast IMO.

I believe at the time the Fidelus was cast, only those who James and Lily trusted knew of it at all: Peter, Sirius and Remus. Dumbledore only knew because he suggested it, but they may not have given him access. Everyone else had access. Then Sirius switched and only he, Peter and the Potters had access.

In my opinoin, James assumed he'd told Remus as well, but Sirius did not because he thought he was the spy. Because it was done at the last minute and Remus didn't know about it (by discovering he had no access) then in my opinion it means he did not go to the house. Either by last minute Sirius meant hours before the Potters were attacked and Remus did not have a chance to go by. Or Remus was away on Order business. I believe he was away on Order business or he would have gone to Godric's Hallow following the attack. If he was away, Sirius would have had to have informed him by Patronus or Owl and Sirius did not want to inform him so it gave him a good excuse if later James and Lily asked why he hadn't. But they didn't have to ask because they were killed before it came up - and they knew everything a few minutes after that once they reached the afterworld. :)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they cast the Fidelius only a few days before the Potters were murdered? They had been in hiding for about two years but without the Fidelius. I presume that Remus was busy fighting for the Order, so he may not have noticed that the Fidelius kept him out because he didn't visit the Potters every day. Judging from Lily's letter, neither did Sirius.

As for Remus staying away from Harry, I think he simply couldn't deal. Remus is a close-lipped person and he tends to repress problems rather than to deal with them. Losing all of his friends on one single day must have been devastating for him. Being around Harry would have meant facing his loss and talking about it. In PoA we see him avoiding Harry's questions. He doesn't mention James and Sirius until Harry asks him.

As for Remus staying away from Harry, I think he simply couldn't deal. Remus is a close-lipped person and he tends to repress problems rather than to deal with them. Losing all of his friends on one single day must have been devastating for him. Being around Harry would have meant facing his loss and talking about it. In PoA we see him avoiding Harry's questions. He doesn't mention James and Sirius until Harry asks him.
I really like that as a reason. It seems very fitting to his character.

I believe he was away on Order business or he would have gone to Godric's Hallow following the attack.
That is such a good point. Of course he would have gone there immediately.

As for Remus staying away from Harry, I think he simply couldn't deal. Remus is a close-lipped person and he tends to repress problems rather than to deal with them. Losing all of his friends on one single day must have been devastating for him. Being around Harry would have meant facing his loss and talking about it. In PoA we see him avoiding Harry's questions. He doesn't mention James and Sirius until Harry asks him.

I also feel that is a very good reason; too I think it was combined with the fact that Remus had no idea where Harry was and Dumbledore would not tell him. But I think your explanation gives insight into why Remus wouldn't push it. He was likely floored. Based on little clues in canon (his knowledge about foreign places - and JKR's statement about his inability to work in wizard England) I got the idea that he left England where he was unemployable and found work else where. His battered brief case with "Remus J. Lupin, Professor" on it suggests he had been working for years somewhere (or in many places) as a professor (POA - on the train).

Remus did not know that Sirius believed him to be the spy, he asked Sirius if that was the reason in POA. (POA The Servant of Lord Voldemort). Further, the reasoning is circular:

Consider this: If Remus had believed Sirius thought him the spy, he would have never have thought Sirius was the spy. That is because Remus cannot both believe that Sirius was the spy and believe that Sirius thought him the spy at the same time. (The same goes for Sirius.)

Here it is a little clearer:

Remus believes Sirius is the spy
Remus believes Sirius does not think any one else could be the spy because he knows he himself is the spy
So, Remus cannot believe that Sirius thinks he is a spy (traitor)

Remus could have thought that Sirius managed to convince James and Lily, or *persuade* James and Lily that Remus was the traitor instead of himself IMO.

If Remus could not see or access the house, even if he thought it was because it was re-cast without his knowledge, we are back at the first problem again - Remus would believe that he was thought the traitor. It would be illogical for him to believe Sirius thought he was the spy - seeing as he believed Sirius was the spy himself as I explained above. To clarify: Remus believed that Sirius knew he was not the spy, because Sirius was the spy.

That would be possible if Remus though Sirius had managed to convince James and Lily that he was the spy IMO.

James was said to have considered it the highest dishonor to mistrust his friends (DH - Fallen Warrior). I believe that, so I would respectfully disagree that he distrusted any of his friends. :)

I agree; only I think James meant it for Sirius more than anyone else. It was Sirius that Dumbledore was worried about, Sirius that Madam Rosemerta and others thought Dumbledore suspected and Sirius who was closer than any of James's other friends and Sirius whom James thought would rather die than betary him. There seems to be no discussion about who the SK could be; that is another reason that Remus (if he had shared his suspicions with James would have felt bad about IMO).

And not once in canon do we have Sirius and Remus, especially Sirius say that James trusted Remus, there is nothing like that; on the other hand we do have canon stating that Remus and Sirius thought each other the spy, and James switched SK without Remus;s knowledge IMO.

Sirius, according to canon, indicated why he made the switch. He said that it was more likely that Voldemort would approach him than Peter. (see quote above)

Yes, because Remus would have told Voldmeort that he could not tell the secret, but Sirius was the SK. Voldemort would naturally come after him IMO.

Imo, that means he felt Voldemort would more likely approach Remus than Peter too (which is why he was not made secret keeper either, like Sirius).

This cannot happen because Sirius thought Remus to be the spy. He thought Remus to be working for Voldemort. So he would not think that Voldmeort would come after him, but that Remus would go to Voldmeort and then Voldmeort would come after the SK, that was Sirius IMO.

Since Sirius indicated why he made the switch, imo, that is the reason he would have given James and Lily. James and Lily would likely be convinced that Sirius and Remus would be approached by Voldemort before Peter. So they agreed to make the switch - trusting that all of their friends were on their side, but they were mistaken about Peter

Remus clearly says that he was not told about the switch because he was suspected and Sirius apologizes to him. So Sirius was intending to protect the Potters from Voldemort and the traitor in their midst; which they thought was Remus IMO.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they cast the Fidelius only a few days before the Potters were murdered? They had been in hiding for about two years but without the Fidelius. I presume that Remus was busy fighting for the Order, so he may not have noticed that the Fidelius kept him out because he didn't visit the Potters every day. Judging from Lily's letter, neither did Sirius.

It was just about a week, before they were killed I think. Perhaps Remus did not visit them everyday; he would not have if he was working like we saw in HBP, but he did know important stuff; like the fact Sirius was SK, and he did not know about the switch, as did not Dumbledore IMO.

The most telling thing IMO about the fact that Remus was kept out deliberately instead of unintentionally, is the conversation he has with sirius and Peter in the shack in POA. That is canon and there Remus clearly says that he was not told about the switch because he was suspected. That makes all the other conversations different IMO. And like I posted a page or so back, Sirius does say he thought the switch to be the best way, but even that can be interpreted in a different light because of this statement of Remus IMO.

POA

‘Harry… I as good as killed them,’ he croaked. ‘I persuaded Lily and James to change to Peter at the last moment, persuaded them to use him as secret keeper instead of me… I’m to blame, I know it…

………'....Wouldn't Sirius have told you, if they changed the plan?'

'Not if he thought I was the spy Peter,' said Lupin, who was now rolling up his sleeves. 'And you will in turn forgive me for believing you were the spy?'

'Forgive me Remus?'

‘Not at all Padfoot, old friend,’ said Lupin, who was now rolling his sleeves. ‘And will you in turn, forgive me for believing you were the spy’

And because of the above sords, the post below could also be contrued differently IMO.

Bold are the words from POA and the rest my interpretation of events that happened in Godric's Hollow after the Fidelus was cast IMO

I thought it was the perfect plan -- Sirius thought that the switch was the best plan

there is a gap between the words above and the next and a gap after that

...a bluff.... -- Here I differ from others slightly. While I agree with you it was a bluff for Voldemort, but I also think that the bluff was for Remus as well. He would have no access toi the house, which means he would not have any opportunity to take Harry away to Voldemort. So the words can be taken either way IMO. And I think it was as much for Remus as it was for Voldemort, because at that time Sirius did feel Remus was Voldemort's man IMO and thre fore as dangerous as his Master IMO.

Voldemort would be sure to come after me, would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless thing like you... -- If Remus who knew about the first Fidelus tells Voldemort, then Voldemort would come after him to torture him to tell him the secret.

The point here is, Voldemort did NOT know they were under the Fidelus. Because apart from James, Lily, Sirius, Lupin, Peter and Dumbeldore no one knew about the Fidelus.

And the Fidelus on a home like Grimmauld Place was able to keep all the DE Balcks out of it. It was such a powerful charm, and Voldemort would have no reason to even think they would have gone under the Fidelus in the first place, unless someone told him IMO.

So that tells me one thing. The traitor was among the people I have mentioned above. Discounting James and Lily, the traitor was one of the four. Since it was Dumbledore who told them about the traitor in the first place, I eliminate him as well.

Left are the 3 remaining Marauders. Sirius was trusted more than his life by James Potter. So left behind are Peter and Remus IMO.

Now all of these people had access to GH, and all of them knew Sirius was the SK. So the traitor could tell Voldemort about the Sk and Voldemort would hunt Sirius down and torture him and get the secret. Then the Potters would be in danger IMO.

Because if they did not think like this, then the switch makes no sense to me.

Then, because they concluded IMO, Remus to be the traitor, they went ahead and did the switch secretly IMO.

By doing this what they would first stop Remus's access to the House. Harry was safe IMO.

Second, even if Remus would tell Voldemort about the SK and Voldemort would come and capture Sirius, it would be futile, because the enchantment does not work that way. Sirius would not be able to tell the secret. And no one DE their right minds would suspect that the Potters entrusted their safety to a weak and talentless thing like Peter and so Peter would be safe, the secret would be safe, and Sirius would go into hiding ans he would be safe as well IMO.

ETA :: It is canon that Sirius and Remus thought each other the spy; and it is canon that Remus was not told about the switch because he was thought the spy IMO.

This was post no 570, where I think Sirius's words can be interpreted differently as well. Of course this is only my take on the whole thing. :)

As for Remus staying away from Harry, I think he simply couldn't deal. Remus is a close-lipped person and he tends to repress problems rather than to deal with them. Losing all of his friends on one single day must have been devastating for him. Being around Harry would have meant facing his loss and talking about it. In PoA we see him avoiding Harry's questions. He doesn't mention James and Sirius until Harry asks him.

I agree with your first sentence. Because I also think Remus could not take it. While losing all his friends in day would have tru8ly devastated him, I think Remus was also terribly hurt. Hurt that Sirius managed to convince James and Lily that he, Remus was the spy and that Sirius also managed to kill James and Lily using their unswerving trust in him. And that Peter got caught in the crossfire IMO.

To see Harry, he would have been reminded of all that he lost and unnecessarily too. He was not the traitor and yet the real traitor managed to get James's trust and kill of them and an innocent friend too IMO.

Remus, I think is a person who feels very deeply on the inside. He never shows his feelings outside, mainly because since his early years he and his were never valued, only feared and shunned IMO.

To face a happening like he did with the only persons who accepted him; two friends dead by the hand of the third, and I think Remus was unable to meet Harry and talk to him about his parents and Godfather, because that would inevitably come around to the betrayal and everything IMO.

----------

Another thought just struck me as I was typing this. I wonder if Remus thought Sirius to be the traitor because of the werewolf incident, where he may have felt that Sirius was quite careless and thoughtless of others that he would and did play with their lives IMO. What do you guys think?

The entire post is my opinion.

Remus could have thought that Sirius managed to convince James and Lily, or *persuade* James and Lily that Remus was the traitor instead of himself IMO.

I won't pin the entire blame on Sirius...IMO I think it was Peter who must have initiated it (for his own benefit) and Sirius must have backed it up, which would have somehow managed to convince James.

For Lily, I don't think she ever was convinced with the said allegation on Remus. :no: Maybe I am imagining (I've been out of touch for a while) but I faintly recall Remus saying something along those lines (of Lily trusting him...or something similar)...:shrug:

on the other hand we do have canon stating that Remus and Sirius thought each other the spy, and James switched SK without Remus;s knowledge IMO.*

There is a difference of time line there. Sirius suspected Remus before a secret keeper had been alloted. Whereas Remus (like everyone else) not only suspected but were convinced that Sirius was the spy as he was the secret keeper for them all. And it is obvious that James didn't inform Remus of the switch because like Sirius he too thought that Remus was a Spy. :sigh:

I agree with your first sentence. Because I also think Remus could not take it. While losing all his friends in day would have tru8ly devastated him, I think Remus was also terribly hurt. Hurt that Sirius managed to convince James and Lily that he, Remus was the spy and that Sirius also managed to kill James and Lily using their unswerving trust in him. And that Peter got caught in the crossfire IMO.

To see Harry, he would have been reminded of all that he lost and unnecessarily too. He was not the traitor and yet the real traitor managed to get James's trust and kill of them and an innocent friend too IMO.

Remus, I think is a person who feels very deeply on the inside. He never shows his feelings outside, mainly because since his early years he and his were never valued, only feared and shunned IMO.

To face a happening like he did with the only persons who accepted him; two friends dead by the hand of the third, and I think Remus was unable to meet Harry and talk to him about his parents and Godfather, because that would inevitably come around to the betrayal and everything IMO.


All that has been said very well. :tu:

But IMO I think the only reason why Remus didn't attach himself with Harry was the fear of an emotional loss later in life. He had had enough trauma when it came to emotional relationships like close friendships, that is why he avoided Harry....and that is the very reason why he was avoiding Tonks all along HBP. ;)

I wonder if Remus thought Sirius to be the traitor because of the werewolf incident, where he may have felt that Sirius was quite careless and thoughtless of others that he would and did play with their lives IMO. What do you guys think?


I agree that, that particular incident must have shaken Remus quite a bit and his trust on Sirius, but then as I have specifically stated in my post above, I think that Remus came to suspect Sirius only after it was out that the Potters had been killed. For he like others had assumed that Sirius was the Secret Keeper and hence the spy. Otherwise I am quite sure that Remus had always trusted Sirius all along, though not as much as James. ;)

For Lily, I don't think she ever was convinced with the said allegation on Remus. :no: Maybe I am imagining (I've been out of touch for a while) but I faintly recall Remus saying something along those lines (of Lily trusting him...or something similar)...:shrug:

I think that was in the movies (POA), though I am not very sure. :)

There is a difference of time line there. Sirius suspected Remus before a secret keeper had been alloted. Whereas Remus (like everyone else) not only suspected but were convinced that Sirius was the spy as he was the secret keeper for them all. And it is obvious that James didn't inform Remus of the switch because like Sirius he too thought that Remus was a Spy. :sigh:

I don't think so. I think Remus also suspected Sirius before the Potters died IMO. Remus asks Sirius to forgive him for also suspecting Sirius to be the spy, rather than forgiving him for thinking Sirius as the traitor. That was not Remus's fault; because he never knew as all others. But Remus did think Sirius was the spy and so he too asked Sirius to forgive him IMO.

I think they suspected each other from the time Dumbeldore told them of a spy in the Order.

But Remus did think Sirius was the spy and so he too asked Sirius to forgive him IMO.


Then why didn't he try to voice out his suspicion to James or Dumbledore? :huh:

Then why didn't he try to voice out his suspicion to James or Dumbledore? :huh:

Perhaps he did, to James, to Dumbledore I ma not sure; I thik he probably thought James would take up the issue. But I think he understood very quickly that James trusted Sirius so much that he may not have bothered to tell Dumbledore, whom he may have felt would never believe him, if even James would not IMO.

Or else, Remus may have taken it to Dumbeldore first, because he was probably not comfortable with talking to James about another friend; that may be the reason Dumbeldore also implied through his actions that he suspected Sirius IMO.

Remus could have thought that Sirius managed to convince James and Lily, or *persuade* James and Lily that Remus was the traitor instead of himself IMO.

Respecting your view, but Remus never said this in canon. I feel since James is not convinced by Sirius against his will in the only incident we have in canon where this is discussed, the werewolf incident, he would not be convinced by Sirius against his will in this case either. It was unnecessary for Sirius to convince James and Lily that Remus was the spy because the reason he gave for the switch includes the idea that Voldemort will approach either Remus or Sirius before Peter. Sirius included Remus and James in his speech when he proclaimed that Peter wanted protection from those more powerful than himself (POA). Remus, because he thought Sirius the spy, would likely tell James his fear once Sirius was decided upon for secret keeper and that is when, imo, James would tell Remus he felt it would be the height of dishonor to distrust any of them.

Remus had no need to request Sirius forgiveness if he hadn't believed Sirius the spy until after the Potters were killed - the circumstantial evidence was against Sirius and it would be natural for him to believe that not knowing about the switch. However, if he had only known then, imo, the ghost of a smile on Sirius' face in canon (POA) would not make sense to me because that spoke to Sirius making a realization - and he already knew that Remus thought him a spy after the fact, just not before, imo.


I agree; only I think James meant it for Sirius more than anyone else.

I respect your view, but upon this we differ in opinion and the rest of what you wrote turns on this. I believe James felt it the height of dishonor to distrust his friends as Remus stated in DH Fallen Warrior.

I believe Remus was speaking the truth and thus, Harry reminded Remus of James here. In the midst of war, when someone is betraying the group, Harry refuses not to trust all of his friends; similarly, in the midst of the first war, when someone is betraying the Marauders group, James refuses not to trust all of his friends (A Fallen Warrior). That is why Harry reminded Remus of James.

Remus in that scene stared at Harry for sometime as if thinking back and his expression made Harry say: "you think I'm a fool." And Remus promptly answered, "no, I think you are like James" (paraphrase). That is because he truly believed it, imo.

So that is why we would have to agree to disagree that James knew that Remus had not been informed of the switch. If James knew - and Remus knew that James knew - then Remus would have had to have spoken to James and not been told by him about the switch. Remus could not have spoken to James without accessing the house and because of the switch he would not have been able to access the house. Too, at that point he would have realized that he was not trusted by everyone and a switch had been made without his knowledge. But in canon, Remus stated he did not know about the switch. In my opinion that means he did not try to access the house once the switch was made; he did not speak to either Lily or James and he was not told by Sirius or Peter that the switch had been made. :)

Perhaps he did, to James, to Dumbledore I ma not sure; I thik he probably thought James would take up the issue. But I think he understood very quickly that James trusted Sirius so much that he may not have bothered to tell Dumbledore, whom he may have felt would never believe him, if even James would not IMO.

Or else, Remus may have taken it to Dumbeldore first, because he was probably not comfortable with talking to James about another friend; that may be the reason Dumbeldore also implied through his actions that he suspected Sirius IMO.*

All that you say is just your assumption/opinion. Its not canon. As far as the Statement where Remus asked Sirius to forgive him for thinking of him as a spy implicitly attaches the term traitor with spy. Well thats my opinion. :shrug:

Sure it isn't canon, in the sense the books don't have the exact words or state the exact way Remus was thought to be the spy or the traitor by Sirius and IMO James and Lily. But I do think we have enough to go on with; with the statements I have given above that Remus was not told of the switch because he was suspected by Sirius IMO.

If James did not know and believe that Remus was the traitor, then James is guilty of a few things. 1) He has not made the effort to flush out the spy and like my posts long back, he was guily of allowing the traitor to spy on him. In a situation like the one they were living in, James simply not doing anything to protect himself from the traitor, when the said traitor was someone close to them (and I mean everyone close from Order members, Bathilda Bagshot and the 3 friends) he and Lily were pretty careless with the life of his child; that he put something else be it trust, friendship or whatever over it IMO.

2) This would also mean that Sirius either did not speak of his suspicions to James which I don't think happened, because Sirius had no reason not to speak out about his feelings or that Sirius did speak out and James disregarded it, which again IMO presents James in a negative light, because the priority at that time was his wife and child and it shows he was stubborn and unwilling to face the fact someone was a traitor close to him and verify that infoamation IMO.

3) Remus suspected Sirius and Sirius, Remus and if James knew about it, then had he simply brushed off everything by simply saying he did not believe his friends to be capable of such things when Sirius, Remus and Dumbledore had all brought him information of a person who could harm him and his family, well I can only say his priorities were not correct IMO.

Because at that time, in those circumstances and when they were living in hiding for quite some time and that not being enough, were going under the Fidelus, because there was in the Order someone very close to them who was informing Voldemort about their movements and three people, one who was the man whom James and Lily followed as leader in the war and 2 of them his very close friends were suspecting each other, with the end result of this being the deaths of his wife and child, I am afraid I do not think well of James if he disregarded the lives of his family in favour of unable to believe that one of his friends may be a traitor IMO.

That would mean he loved Lily and Harry less than he trusted his friends. And that I would not believe. I think and I do not like James very much, but I do think he would put the lives of his wife and child foremost and take subsequent action to protect them as much as he could. That for me is consistent to his character. And that ois also consistent with the facts. James and his family went under the Fidelus charm, because they wanted to be safe from the traitor, if the said traitor was say Bathilda Bagshot or Mad-Eye Moody IMO.

But then James and Lily made the switch. Now, what we know of the Fidelus charm tells us that it is the best way to stay safe. The Potters were safe, when Sirius became the Sk and no one apart from Dumbledore and the 3 other friends knew IMO.

The argument that is given here is that Sirius made the switch because Voldemort would surely come after him and so this would help IMO.

First for that Voldemort would need toi know Sirius was the SK. For all he knew Dumbeldore could have been that. Even assuming Sirius changed SK to cheat Voldmeort, Voledmort could have come after him, raped his mind and got the name of the current SK and gone after Peter. Or Voldemort could have got hold of the weakest link (Peter) employed Legilimency against him and got the information of who the SK was and go after them or simply get the secret from Peter if Peter was the SK by some nice Crucios and the like IMO.

It was not for Voldemort that the switch was made. I think James took seriously the threat of a spy, and coupled with Sirius's suspicions agreed and made the switch IMO.

Sure it isn't canon, in the sense the books don't have the exact words or state the exact way Remus was thought to be the spy or the traitor by Sirius and IMO James and Lily. But I do think we have enough to go on with; with the statements I have given above that Remus was not told of the switch because he was suspected by Sirius IMO.

If James did not know and believe that Remus was the traitor, then James is guilty of a few things. 1) He has not made the effort to flush out the spy and like my posts long back, he was guily of allowing the traitor to spy on him. In a situation like the one they were living in, James simply not doing anything to protect himself from the traitor, when the said traitor was someone close to them (and I mean everyone close from Order members, Bathilda Bagshot and the 3 friends) he and Lily were pretty careless with the life of his child; that he put something else be it trust, friendship or whatever over it IMO.

2) This would also mean that Sirius either did not speak of his suspicions to James which I don't think happened, because Sirius had no reason not to speak out about his feelings or that Sirius did speak out and James disregarded it, which again IMO presents James in a negative light, because the priority at that time was his wife and child and it shows he was stubborn and unwilling to face the fact someone was a traitor close to him and verify that infoamation IMO.

3) Remus suspected Sirius and Sirius, Remus and if James knew about it, then had he simply brushed off everything by simply saying he did not believe his friends to be capable of such things when Sirius, Remus and Dumbledore had all brought him information of a person who could harm him and his family, well I can only say his priorities were not correct IMO.

Because at that time, in those circumstances and when they were living in hiding for quite some time and that not being enough, were going under the Fidelus, because there was in the Order someone very close to them who was informing Voldemort about their movements and three people, one who was the man whom James and Lily followed as leader in the war and 2 of them his very close friends were suspecting each other, with the end result of this being the deaths of his wife and child, I am afraid I do not think well of James if he disregarded the lives of his family in favour of unable to believe that one of his friends may be a traitor IMO.

That would mean he loved Lily and Harry less than he trusted his friends. And that I would not believe. I think and I do not like James very much, but I do think he would put the lives of his wife and child foremost and take subsequent action to protect them as much as he could. That for me is consistent to his character. And that ois also consistent with the facts. James and his family went under the Fidelus charm, because they wanted to be safe from the traitor, if the said traitor was say Bathilda Bagshot or Mad-Eye Moody IMO.

But then James and Lily made the switch. Now, what we know of the Fidelus charm tells us that it is the best way to stay safe. The Potters were safe, when Sirius became the Sk and no one apart from Dumbledore and the 3 other friends knew IMO.

The argument that is given here is that Sirius made the switch because Voldemort would surely come after him and so this would help IMO.

First for that Voldemort would need toi know Sirius was the SK. For all he knew Dumbeldore could have been that. Even assuming Sirius changed SK to cheat Voldmeort, Voledmort could have come after him, raped his mind and got the name of the current SK and gone after Peter. Or Voldemort could have got hold of the weakest link (Peter) employed Legilimency against him and got the information of who the SK was and go after them or simply get the secret from Peter if Peter was the SK by some nice Crucios and the like IMO.

It was not for Voldemort that the switch was made. I think James took seriously the threat of a spy, and coupled with Sirius's suspicions agreed and made the switch IMO.

I respect your view, however, I just do not believe in blaming the victims of villains. Snape relayed the prophecy, Voldemort determined it referred to the Potters, Peter told him how to get to them and Voldemort killed them. I see those three as the villains in the scenario, and I feel they should be blamed for the heinous crime of killing the Potters and leaving baby Harry an orphan. I honestly do not feel it is just to shift any of the blame for the crimes of the villains onto others, especially their victims.

Whatever the Potters did to try to save themselves did not work, but I feel the important point is that they should not have been placed in a position to try to defend themselves because Voldemort, Snape and Peter should not have colluded and set out to attempt to kill a baby that might be a threat to Voldemort one day.

Many Order members, Muggleborns, Muggles and others were killed under Voldemort's terrible first war. The Ministry, Dumbledore and the Order Members (including James and Lily) attempted to help combat that. But they were not successful in saving everyone. Everyone knew that Voldemort was on the loose and tried to protect themselves against this great evil, but they could not because Voldemort and his DEs were cunning in their ways, talented and vicious according to the revelations in the series.

In the specific case of the Potters, I believe all of the villains performed heinous crimes; Snape was willing to have a baby and its parents killed; Voldemort was willing to do the killing and Peter was willing to betray his best friends - and all of them in support of promoting Voldemort's rise to power. I feel those were the wrongful acts and the Potters best efforts to save themselves failed against this great evil, just as so many others had both before and after them.

In my opinion, James and Lily did their best to save their family. :)

[QUOTE=wickedwickedboy;5068017]I respect your view, however, I just do not believe in blaming the victims of villains. Snape relayed the prophecy, Voldemort determined it referred to the Potters, Peter told him how to get to them and Voldemort killed them. I see those three as the villains in the scenario, and I feel they should be blamed for the heinous crime of killing the Potters and leaving baby Harry an orphan. I honestly do not feel it is just to shift any of the blame for the crimes of the villains onto others, especially their victims.QUOTE]

I have to agree with this. You cannot say Lily and James were the authors of their own misfortune because they were murdered. You cannot say that Sirius and Remus were at fault because they were betrayed. The crime lies with Voldemort, Peter and Snape.

I had a thought. Do you guys think that the Marauders used the Shrieking Shack as a clubhouse of sorts? It was pretty perfect; no one went there out of fear, so they could do whatever they wanted. I know Remus would have hated it at first, but once his friends joined him, he began to enjoy his moonlight wanderings and so the place may have taken on a brighter outlook for him as well. I think it would be a cool hang out - right on campus and no one would find them.

I agree with your first sentence. Because I also think Remus could not take it. While losing all his friends in day would have tru8ly devastated him, I think Remus was also terribly hurt. Hurt that Sirius managed to convince James and Lily that he, Remus was the spy and that Sirius also managed to kill James and Lily using their unswerving trust in him. And that Peter got caught in the crossfire IMO.

As I see it, this cannot be the reason because Remus had not known that Sirius suspected him until they met in the Shrieking Shack. He believed that Sirius was the traitor and he said so in PoA.

I respect your view, however, I just do not believe in blaming the victims of villains. Snape relayed the prophecy, Voldemort determined it referred to the Potters, Peter told him how to get to them and Voldemort killed them. I see those three as the villains in the scenario, and I feel they should be blamed for the heinous crime of killing the Potters and leaving baby Harry an orphan. I honestly do not feel it is just to shift any of the blame for the crimes of the villains onto others, especially their victims.

I agree. My point was not to shift the balme of Snape's, Voldemort's or Peter's crimes onto the Marauders' shoulders. I am sorry if it looked that way. :)

But I do hold reponsible James and Lily for not taking the right precautions to save themselves and more importantly their child. I also do not know as it is only speculation about the reasons that Sirius may have given James for suspecting Remus as the traitor and/or if Remus also gave the same about Sirius IMO.

I really think that on a normal day for James to stand by his friends like he did with Remus when he knew Remus was a werewolf and with Sirius, when Sirius came from a dark family; played an irresponsible part in the werewolf incident and was pretty reckless and tolerating Peter because he tagged along is all very fine, but the moment Dumbledore caomes with such important information and when Sirius has doubts about Remus and Remus about Sirius and clearly the friendship is showing the strains of the war, with the lives of Lily an dHarry hanging on the result of James's action, I feel he should have exhibited more caution. Taken more precautions. Verified more accurately IMO.

That James did not do IMO.

Whatever the Potters did to try to save themselves did not work, but I feel the important point is that they should not have been placed in a position to try to defend themselves because Voldemort, Snape and Peter should not have colluded and set out to attempt to kill a baby that might be a threat to Voldemort one day.

Sure. I agree with you, that the Potters shopuld not have been hunted and that they were because of Snape handing over the Prophecy. But they were also in danger before that as well, for they had defied Voldemort some three times and lived to tell the tale and that could have been one reason they went into hiding in the first place, because Voldmeort would attack them.

But that IMO does not absolve James and Lily of the responsibility of protecting themselves and Harry properly IMO, all the more because there was a known danger (the spy).

Many Order members, Muggleborns, Muggles and others were killed under Voldemort's terrible first war. The Ministry, Dumbledore and the Order Members (including James and Lily) attempted to help combat that. But they were not successful in saving everyone. Everyone knew that Voldemort was on the loose and tried to protect themselves against this great evil, but they could not because Voldemort and his DEs were cunning in their ways, talented and vicious according to the revelations in the series.

That was because of the spy and I think Dumbeldore too takes some of the blame for not flusing out the traitor IMO. That made it easy for the traitor to pass on information that got the Order members killed IMO.

In the specific case of the Potters, I believe all of the villains performed heinous crimes; Snape was willing to have a baby and its parents killed; Voldemort was willing to do the killing and Peter was willing to betray his best friends - and all of them in support of promoting Voldemort's rise to power.

I agree.

I feel those were the wrongful acts and the Potters best efforts to save themselves failed against this great evil, just as so many others had both before and after them.

In my opinion, James and Lily did their best to save their family. :)

I respectfully disagree. I think James and Lily Potter did not protect themselves well. James IMO went blindly on the trust of his best friend's suspicions about another friend and took steps to protect his family because of that suspicion and because of that wrong judgement I feel the crucial secret passed over into the hands of the actual traitor IMO.

As I see it, this cannot be the reason because Remus had not known that Sirius suspected him until they met in the Shrieking Shack. He believed that Sirius was the traitor and he said so in PoA.

Did you mean because Remus thought Peter was dead and also thought Sirius was the traitor?

I don't think so, because then there is no proper reason about why Remus never went to see Harry IMO. While Dumbledore may not have allowed him to could be one reason, I refused to buy that because Remus does not obey Dumbledore implicitly and nor does he do everything that Dumbledore would expect of him to. He never tells about Sirius's animagus form, he hands back the Marauders' Map back to Harry. Those are not in line with an obedient Remus IMO. So I feel there must be a reason why Remus never came.

Another reason could be that he could not deal. But for how long? Remus is not a wimp, that he could never face the past. One year, three years, five years and he would have been able to face the wound of what happened. And after five or six years, I think he was intelligent enough to see that while the dead would stay so and the traitor was punished, there was a small boy who would only benefit by his presence. And Harry never needed to know about his monthly thingy. A visit a month or so would not hurt at all IMO. But Remus never visits IMO.

So the wound had to be personal and devastating, so devastating that Remus could not face Harry at all. All through the Books, Remus never comes forward. Not after POA, not after GOF, not after OOTP when Sirius died and even Harry thinks wistfully that Remus at least could have written him a little note and not after HBP when Dumbledore died.

I feel that Remus has been a well wisher but from the outside for Harry. So I conclude that Remus has had issues that hurt him so badly that he was unable to meet Harry and interact with him like Sirius. That fits if Remus was thought of as the traitor by James because of his werewolf past or something like that (I have no canon for this), something so hurtful that he could not face himself and Harry IMO. I chose the traitor thing because we have proof for that in canon and that explains somewhat Remus's attitude towards Harry, distant and yet protective (almost like Snape IMO.

1) Remus suspected Sirius, but I think he knew Sirius suspected him as well. Their behaviour towards each other would reflect it and I think Remus would be able to smell distrust from Sirius. :D

2) Remus never knew that Sirius suspected him as the spy until POA, I don't think that happened, but if it did, then why would Remus never go near Harry for almost 13 years? To see a boy whose father had accepted him so fully. It places Remus's actions in a poor light IMO.

The entire post is my opinion.

I agree. My point was not to shift the balme of Snape's, Voldemort's or Peter's crimes onto the Marauders' shoulders. I am sorry if it looked that way. :)

Then I don't understand the point you are trying to make. :)

I chose the traitor thing because we have proof for that in canon and that explains somewhat Remus's attitude towards Harry, distant and yet protective (almost like Snape IMO.

I feel Remus' character was nothing like Snape's. He was kind and loving toward Harry when he returned into his life and always had his best interests at heart. Remus specifically said in POA, OOTP and DH he was watching over Harry because Lily and James would want him to - expressing his love for them. He later expressed his love directly for Harry, making him the godfather of his son and hugging him to seal the deal.

1) Remus suspected Sirius, but I think he knew Sirius suspected him as well. Their behaviour towards each other would reflect it and I think Remus would be able to smell distrust from Sirius. :D

2) Remus never knew that Sirius suspected him as the spy until POA, I don't think that happened, but if it did, then why would Remus never go near Harry for almost 13 years? To see a boy whose father had accepted him so fully. It places Remus's actions in a poor light IMO.

The entire post is my opinion.

Remus could not both have suspected that Sirius was the spy and felt that Sirius believed he was the spy. The two concepts are impossible for one person to believe at the same time.

Then I don't understand the point you are trying to make. :)

Snape, Voldemort and Peter set into motion actions that could harm and actually harmed the Potters, but because of that would you say that the Potters themselves had no responsibility towards protecting themselves aginst such harmful actions, especially when they knew that someone close to them was the traitor and one of the three persons mentioned above? (Snape, Voldemort and Peter)

They too must have protected themselves fully and I feel they had not done that properly and so they became responsible for their plight IMO.

I feel James and Lily Potter did not verify and did not make sure that the Sk (both the times), and those who knew the secret were trustworthy persons.

Yes, normally one need not ckeck one's close friends. But this was not a normal time; Sirius had suspicions against Remus; Dumbledore had worries against Sirius (presumably) and the others close to the Potters and yet, James and Lily make Sirius the SK, and then suddenly do the switch. I do feel it was poor judgement and at such a time, when Dumbledore himself was worried; when they knew there was a traitor in their midst and when they knew their movements were being reported to Voldmeort and when they were already in hiding for quite sometime and when they knew the seriousness of the war and everything IMO.

I feel Remus' character was nothing like Snape's. He was kind and loving toward Harry when he returned into his life and always had his best interests at heart. Remus specifically said in POA, OOTP and DH he was watching over Harry because Lily and James would want him to - expressing his love for them. He later expressed his love directly for Harry, making him the godfather of his son and hugging him to seal the deal.

Yes, Remus made Harry Godfather; I think that was both an apology to Harry for the fight they had, his thanks expressed to Harry for sending Remus back to Tonks and Remus coming to terms with the past (based on my assumption that James too agreed Remus was the spy) that he made Harry, his friend's son the Godfather of his own and also because he may have genuinely cared as well IMO.

Remus could not both have suspected that Sirius was the spy and felt that Sirius believed he was the spy. The two concepts are impossible for one person to believe at the same time.

No, but Remus may have suspected Sirius and may have thought that Sirius had pointed fingers towards him in order to make James believe 1) that Sirius was not the traitor 2) to make James believe that Remus was the traitor so that Remus would be out of the way. Peter was a weak talentless thing, so no worries there for Sirius, who would then sell out the Potters to Voldemort IMO.

Snape, Voldemort and Peter set into motion actions that could harm and actually harmed the Potters, but because of that would you say that the Potters themselves had no responsibility towards protecting themselves aginst such harmful actions, especially when they knew that someone close to them was the traitor and one of the three persons mentioned above? (Snape, Voldemort and Peter)

Yes, I would say they had no responsibility. I do not believe in casting any blame on victims of crime. The fact that they have to protect themselves in the first place is terrible; I do not feel is is just for them to then have to face judgment on their efforts in that regard and it shifts some of the blame onto them when all of the blame should be placed on the villains. The Potters were not harmed, they were killed and those colluding to kill them were killers, not deliquents. The villains set out to kill this family and as such, they should be blamed entirely, imo. The actions of the villains not only ended in their deaths, but deprived them of their freedom and a large portion of their lives by causing them to worry, suffer and be sequestered for over a year. The Potters were not out sunning in Fiji and throwing huge celebrations to pass the time; they were in very deprived circumstances doing their best to keep their family alive - I don't feel they should be judged on their methods in trying to do so.

No, but Remus may have suspected Sirius and may have thought that Sirius had pointed fingers towards him in order to make James believe 1) that Sirius was not the traitor 2) to make James believe that Remus was the traitor so that Remus would be out of the way. Peter was a weak talentless thing, so no worries there for Sirius, who would then sell out the Potters to Voldemort IMO.

I respect your right to feel that way, however, as I have stated a few times; I believe James trusted all of his friends and I believe that Remus felt James trusted all of his friends also. :)

I don't know about Peter, but I think the fact that James and Sirius were so close might sometimes have been a relief for Lupin. It meant he probably got left out of more than one nighttime stroll, but it also probably meant that he was able to stay out of trouble on more than one occassion when James and Sirius received detention. Lupin, I think, was always the most mature of the Marauders and he wouldn't have wanted all those detentions.
I think James, Sirius, and Peter all became Animagi for seemingly good (well, selfless) reasons. But the underlying reason was, I believe, more to enable them to have more adventures. Doing it for Lupin was only secondary.
As far as James' obsession with Lily, he probably got teased a bit for it - but all in good fun. And I'm sure the others had similar situations, if not as noticable or long-lasting, so they couldn't tease him too much because he could probably turn it right back at them.
I think my favorite Marauder is Lupin, just because of how brave and wise he is (most of the time). His character is not quite as loud and overbearing as others. I do love Sirius, though, for his humor, and James for the same reason.

I had a thought. Do you guys think that the Marauders used the Shrieking Shack as a clubhouse of sorts? It was pretty perfect; no one went there out of fear, so they could do whatever they wanted. I know Remus would have hated it at first, but once his friends joined him, he began to enjoy his moonlight wanderings and so the place may have taken on a brighter outlook for him as well. I think it would be a cool hang out - right on campus and no one would find them.

Oh I have no doubt that they did. Once everyone joined Remus during his transformations, they probably snuck out of the common room a few nights a week and hung out there, since no one else knew that the Whomping Willow was actually somewhere where Remus went for his transformations. It was their own little secret.

Did you mean because Remus thought Peter was dead and also thought Sirius was the traitor?

I don't think so, because then there is no proper reason about why Remus never went to see Harry IMO. While Dumbledore may not have allowed him to could be one reason, I refused to buy that because Remus does not obey Dumbledore implicitly and nor does he do everything that Dumbledore would expect of him to. He never tells about Sirius's animagus form, he hands back the Marauders' Map back to Harry. Those are not in line with an obedient Remus IMO. So I feel there must be a reason why Remus never came.


It's in his nature, as I see it. Remus doesn't consider himself worthy to be in anyone's life. He never pushes himself into the limelight. As soon as Sirius is back in Harry's life, he takes a back-seat. Remus and Harry were getting close in PoA but we don't really see him or hear from him in GoF. It's Sirius who fills the void. As to the guilt and the pain going away, what would Remus have said to an eight or ten-year-old Harry? How would he have explained that he was the sole survivor of the circle? I think that Remus - just like Sirius - never stopped feeling guilty. It's a case of survivor's guilt.

I think James, Sirius, and Peter all became Animagi for seemingly good (well, selfless) reasons. But the underlying reason was, I believe, more to enable them to have more adventures. Doing it for Lupin was only secondary.I think I'd have to disagree. Remus may not have been as close as Sirius and James were, but I think the other Marauders thought more of Remus than just as a means to go on more adventures. IMO the extra adventures were secondary and helping Remus was primary. Lupin says something to this effect in PoA.I think that Remus - just like Sirius - never stopped feeling guilty. It's a case of survivor's guilt.I agree with that. It must have been hard to be the only one left alive out of your closest friends. And I think he might have felt awkward explaining that to Harry. He is very reticent to explain his whole connection to Sirius and James in PoA even once they'd gotten to know each other a bit, so I think earlier on he'd have been even more reluctant to explain things to Harry as a complete stranger.

Yes, I would say they had no responsibility. I do not believe in casting any blame on victims of crime. The fact that they have to protect themselves in the first place is terrible

I agree with the last line, just because it came to pass that they had to protect themselves, when they should not have (leaving aside the some 3 times they defied Voldemort and were targets already), they need not take the words of Dumbeldore seriously and protect themselves against Voldmeort and the traitor.

Sure, James and Lily would have only been general targets as members of the Order and as 2 persons who defied Voldmeort 3 times and lived to tell the tale, but just because they were the victims and others were responsible for their going under the Fidelus, I cannot say I agree that at that crucial time friendship or say, being gentlemanly would be more important, mainly because there were lives at stake. Because one person who knew the secret or was the Sk himself could actually be the traitor IMO.

I think it does make James and Lily responsible to ensure that there is no chance of the traitor having access to them once they go under the Fidelus. Otehrwise the Fidelus itself has no purpose IMO.

And I feel James should have ckecked and double checked everyone from the cleaner man/woman if he had any coming to the house to Sirius Black. Becuase had he done so, there would be no regret or remorse later for not having taken more precautions (Sirius cries in POA that he as good killed the Potters).

I do think it was wrong of James to blindly say he trusted his friends, when Dumbeldore had all but told him one of those friends may also be a traitor IMO. I think Snape was right when he said in POA that James was arrogant to belive in the best of Black (something like that anyway). James did believe Sirius, but not just as a friend whom he trusted with all his life, but also to make a switch of the SK to a person, James certainly did not trust with all his life, and only thought Peter was a weak, talentless thing. How on earth would Peter defend the secret if he was captured was another thought Sirius and James never had IMO.

It's in his nature, as I see it. Remus doesn't consider himself worthy to be in anyone's life. He never pushes himself into the limelight. .

Remus IMO was the toughest of the 4 Marauders. That, I think, was partly due to the curse, and partly his nature. I think his curse developed in him a resilience and a patience that could be taken as dull or weak, but I also think it developed a strength of character that made him a very tough nut to crack. Remus's feelings cannot be discerned at all. He is as close mouthed as Snape IMO.

While he does have many insecurities, he also is very much capable of doing what he wants to. The best example is in POA, when he speaks coldly to Peter, telling him that Peter should have known that he and Sirius would have killed him and would have killed Peter too, had Harry not intervened IMO.

He also never pushes himself into the limelight, but he is pretty confident of what he does. I think Remus is accepting when he is pushed away, but is not scared or hesitant in his actions. I think Remus could have very easily visited Harry if he needed to, but IMO he preferred to keep his distance for reasons of his own.

As soon as Sirius is back in Harry's life, he takes a back-seat. Remus and Harry were getting close in PoA but we don't really see him or hear from him in GoF. It's Sirius who fills the void.

I agree with this. Remus does step away the moment Sirius walks into Harry's life, almost relieved. I feel never makes an effort to become close with Harry even before that though IMO.

As to the guilt and the pain going away, what would Remus have said to an eight or ten-year-old Harry? How would he have explained that he was the sole survivor of the circle? I think that Remus - just like Sirius - never stopped feeling guilty.

Harry was largely untouched by the horror that for Remus would have been a reality. For Harry what would have mattered is the link to his parents and any kind of information about them and a wonderful relief that there were people different from the Dursleys; people who would accept him. And I think Remus would find Harry much like himself, for Harry was shunned at his home, not a comparison to how Remus was treated in the WW, but for Harry his isolation and non-acceptance was the biggest problem. Had Remus come into Harry's life, he would have largely removed this problem for him IMO.

I can understand Remus may have felt guilty, but I don't think that would have stopped him from seeking out James's son, if all was well between them (James and Remus) and if James trusted all his friends and thought it the height of dishonour to distrust any one of them IMO. As I said his guilt and grief could not stay the same for almost 13 years, he must move on and it would be very selfish of him IMO if he chose not to move on; and if that were the case, then Remus would not have come to Hogwarts to teach as well IMO.

Sirius felt guilty too; he actually said that he believed that he killed James and Lily, because it was he who persuaded James to make the switch. But Sirius does not move away from Harry. On the contrary he tries to make up for all the lost years that he was not a part of Harry's life.

Remus on the other hand never visits Harry, even after Sirius dies. That is why I think Remus was hurt; hurt badly by the lack of trust from James.

While his grief would not have stopped him for all the 13 years, I think a betrayal can, a feeling of being let down by James who chose to believe Sirius can IMO.

It's a case of survivor's guilt.

But for how long? That makes Remus look very weak, because if he could not face Harry, to simply meet with him once a month, knowing Petunia's aversion towards the magical world (I am assuming all the Marauders knew about Lily's sister and her dislike for all things magical) it says nothing for him IMO.

Harry had lost much more than he. He was living with a relation who hated magic and felt only jealousy twards Harry's mother. If Remus had no issues with James, he would have IMO gone to see Harry for James's sake, perhaps not at once, but surely a few times in the 13 years. Not even when he sees Harry in POA, does Remus say a word to him, about knowing James and Lily. That cannot be survivor's guilt IMO.

------------
With Sirius's obvious lack of trust in Remus, I wonder how the Marauder's friendship stood once James and Lily went into hiding. They must have known about a spy in the Order and I wonder if Sirius suspected Remus from the time (when did the order members know) the order knew of a spy, or did Sirius suspect Remus only after Dumbledore told them to go under the Fidelus, hinting that one of them may be a spy and offered to be their SK himself?

Sometimes I feel that their friendship was strained at least between Remus and Sirius after the werewolf incident (I read a post to that effect here and I think that is very much possible IMO). We don't know about how Remus felt about Sirius's role in that prank and why Sirius sent Snape inside when he knew Remus's secret would come out IMO.

The entire post is my opinion only.

I agree with the last line, just because it came to pass that they had to protect themselves, when they should not have (leaving aside the some 3 times they defied Voldemort and were targets already), they need not take the words of Dumbeldore seriously and protect themselves against Voldmeort and the traitor.

I respect your view. I feel they did their best to protect themselves (in their judgment), however, the villains' plan still worked and they were killed. In my opinion, they were the victims and the killers receive all the blame.

Remember, the Potters had to die in the scope of the story. It didn't matter what they tried to do to protect themselves, it would not have worked because JKR would have found a way to kill them - that is how the story had to go.

And I feel James should have ckecked and double checked everyone from the cleaner man/woman if he had any coming to the house to Sirius Black. Becuase had he done so, there would be no regret or remorse later for not having taken more precautions (Sirius cries in POA that he as good killed the Potters).

It wouldn't have mattered, imo, because it wouldn't have worked, they had to die for the storyline. JKR didn't want to write out a long tale of all they did, she just wanted to indicate what happened. That is why we don't have all the details. :)

I do think it was wrong of James to blindly say he trusted his friends, when Dumbeldore had all but told him one of those friends may also be a traitor IMO.

Remus agreed in DH - he thought James was too trusting. He thought Harry was too trusting too. Harry disagreed. I personally believe that distrusting your friends would be the height of dishonor, so I agree with Harry and James. :)

With Sirius's obvious lack of trust in Remus, I wonder how the Marauder's friendship stood once James and Lily went into hiding. They must have known about a spy in the Order and I wonder if Sirius suspected Remus from the time (when did the order members know) the order knew of a spy, or did Sirius suspect Remus only after Dumbledore told them to go under the Fidelus, hinting that one of them may be a spy and offered to be their SK himself?

Dumbledore told them at the time he suggested the fidelius, so I believe it was only possible for the mutual distrust between Sirius and Remus to have endured one week. Remus continued believing Sirius the spy for 12 years after that, but Sirius of course knew the truth right after the Potters were killed.

Sometimes I feel that their friendship was strained at least between Remus and Sirius after the werewolf incident (I read a post to that effect here and I think that is very much possible IMO). We don't know about how Remus felt about Sirius's role in that prank and why Sirius sent Snape inside when he knew Remus's secret would come out IMO.

I don't think their friendship was strained. Remus said he laughed with all of the others in the aftermath of the close encounters they had while running around where Remus nearly attacked people. I feel he would take the same stance in the aftermath of the werewolf incident; Remus also said that he disliked Snape as much as his friends did back then and I would imagine them re-creating Snape's fear and laughing about it (I don't think that is a good thing, but that is how Remus said they looked at it when they were 15).